UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on April 06, 2016, 12:07:01 PM
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The circumstantial evidence is extensive in this case and taken as a whole clearly supports the conviction of Jeremy Bamber, I have seen nothing or been made aware of anything over the years which will change that situation. The sound moderator forensics are not the Holy Grail in this case which some believe them to be, there is a wealth of other information which first of all establishes who the culprits could be and secondly narrow it down to two individuals, namely Jeremy Bamber and Sheila Caffell. This is established fact beyond all shadow of any doubt.
From this position the way forward is easily determined. One has to find evidence which links either suspect to the murder scene. This task is made all the more difficult because both suspects had valid reasons for being in White House farmhouse.
Armed with the forensic evidence gathered from the farmhouse it is a relatively simple task to work out what happened, who was shot first, where the fight took place etc etc... the MEANS. One then has to look to the two suspects, their physical attributes, their state of mind etc... It soon becomes clear that there is no tangible evidence that Jeremy Bamber carried out the killings. Certainly he knew how to get to the farm without attracting attention, he knew how to get into and out of the farmhouse even when it appeared locked and secure. His presence would not have disturbed the farm dog or set it off barking. He had no alibi for the night of the murders, he thus has OPPORTUNITY.
One then has to look to Jeremy's adoptive sister Sheila for answers. The scene which confronted the police when they entered the master bedroom suggested that Sheila had committed suicide by shooting herself twice in the neck. Indeed, they went with this scenario initially before further evidence came to their attention. If Sheila had fired off 25 rounds, reloaded the rifle and had a scuffle with her adoptive father Nevill Bamber in the kitchen, there would have been forensic evidence in abundance in the form of fingerprints, gunshot residues, blood and blood spatter. The evidence however tells a very different story.
Sheila Caffell had none of the forensic indicators either on her or on her clothing associated with the events which we know took place, you could say she was forensically clean. There is no possible way Sheila could have committed those dreadful murders and come out of it as cousin David Boutflour succinctly put it, "Without a single hair out of place".
One then has to look to other evidence in order to build up a case, Julie Mugford eventually came forward and filled in the missing pieces of the puzzle, the MOTIVE was easily established.
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I don't find there's anything "nutshell" about the case. I think it is very complex not just from an evidential perspective but also the entire judicial system from investigation to trial. And many other factors such as media involvement in shaping opinion.
We all have different backgrounds by way of life experiences, education etc and process information very differently so it is not surprising we arrive at different conclusions. When I say we I mean anyone who has an opinion on the case whether they be lay or professional. I don't believe enough experts have given opinion based on modern forensic science. Modern Forensic science was just coming to the fore at the time of JB's trial. Unfortunately blood pattern analysis was not used at trial and DNA evidence was not even available then.
Imo only expert opinion is capable of fundamentally changing the direction of the case based on modern forensic science.
I will give one example of why I believe the case is complex and the trial verdict potentially wrong. It was said by investigating officers eg DI Cook that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle (only one was found). Many posters also make this contention. I've posted research which suggests that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to texture. I have also exchanged emails with arguably one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints and he has advised the same due to the coating on firearms known as 'bluing'.
Puglove did make a point a while back about the wood stock and next time I speak with the expert I will endeavour to clarify this. Based on my email exchange with the expert I think he would have said if fingerprints can usually be found on the stock but it's not good to assume so for the sake of completeness I will check and report back.
I accept fingerprints are only one small aspect of the case but to my mind it shows incompetence among investigating officers. DI Cook was regarded as the fingerprint expert with 19 years experience. I don't necessarily blame him. What sort of training did he receive? Who was supervising him? Was he keeping up-to-date with his knowledge?
Email exchange between expert and myself sent to Myster for confirmation. I will not be putting this info in the public domain as the expert no doubt communicated with me on the basis of confidentiality.
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Aaaargh!... not again! We believe you, Holly, honest we do!
No joy to be had in further fingerprinting of the rifle and moderator then. Not surprising, since from '85 almost every police officer in Essex might have had a feel of the Anschutz' and Parker-Hale's cold steel..
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F00484%2F14e13542-5aa3-11e3-_484144b.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fcrime%2Farticle3937397.ece&docid=HCAgBHQ6GNNRzM&tbnid=jeE-H8ACbIQeeM%3A&w=780&h=520&ved=0ahUKEwihiPWuuPrLAhVI1RoKHXJLBXsQMwgeKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8 (https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F00484%2F14e13542-5aa3-11e3-_484144b.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Ftto%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fcrime%2Farticle3937397.ece&docid=HCAgBHQ6GNNRzM&tbnid=jeE-H8ACbIQeeM%3A&w=780&h=520&ved=0ahUKEwihiPWuuPrLAhVI1RoKHXJLBXsQMwgeKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8)
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B558C4/chris-whiddon-pc-police-constable-holding-the-22-rifle-and-silencer-B558C4.jpg (http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B558C4/chris-whiddon-pc-police-constable-holding-the-22-rifle-and-silencer-B558C4.jpg)
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I don't find there's anything "nutshell" about the case. I think it is very complex not just from an evidential perspective but also the entire judicial system from investigation to trial. And many other factors such as media involvement in shaping opinion.
We all have different backgrounds by way of life experiences, education etc and process information very differently so it is not surprising we arrive at different conclusions. When I say we I mean anyone who has an opinion on the case whether they be lay or professional. I don't believe enough experts have given opinion based on modern forensic science. Modern Forensic science was just coming to the fore at the time of JB's trial. Unfortunately blood pattern analysis was not used at trial and DNA evidence was not even available then.
Imo only expert opinion is capable of fundamentally changing the direction of the case based on modern forensic science.
I will give one example of why I believe the case is complex and the trial verdict potentially wrong. It was said by investigating officers eg DI Cook that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle (only one was found). Many posters also make this contention. I've posted research which suggests that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to texture. I have also exchanged emails with arguably one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints and he has advised the same due to the coating on firearms known as 'bluing'.
Puglove did make a point a while back about the wood stock and next time I speak with the expert I will endeavour to clarify this. Based on my email exchange with the expert I think he would have said if fingerprints can usually be found on the stock but it's not good to assume so for the sake of completeness I will check and report back.
I accept fingerprints are only one small aspect of the case but to my mind it shows incompetence among investigating officers. DI Cook was regarded as the fingerprint expert with 19 years experience. I don't necessarily blame him. What sort of training did he receive? Who was supervising him? Was he keeping up-to-date with his knowledge?
Email exchange between expert and myself sent to Myster for confirmation. I will not be putting this info in the public domain as the expert no doubt communicated with me on the basis of confidentiality.
This case is not any different from most. It is not complex from a legal standpoint it was very straightforward. You ignore the evidence that proves Jeremy guilty and create strawmen. Jeremy wasn't convicted on the basis that if Sheila was guilty there would have been more of her prints on the weapon. This is a strawman created to imply there was no substantial evidence. He was convicted because a witness said he was planning to kill his family and to frame Sheila, physical evidence established that Sheila was murdered and framed, his various lies and claims about being phoned by Nevill which were not in the least bit credible. He wasn't convicted on a whim.
It is not unique for people to become supporters and to ignore evidence and try to pretend there was insufficient evidence to convict in cases like this where there is substantial evidence. This happens in a great number of cases. Look at the recent publicity in the Steven Avery case. Teresa Halbach went to his property and that was the last time she was heard from. Aside from a confession from Avery's nephew her vehicle was found hidden in brush on his property, her license was found in his home, her blood was found in his home and more. As we speak people are suggesting that someone planted Teresa Halbach's car and all the other evidence in order to frame him. This is no different than the wild claims about Jeremy being framed and there are plenty of other cases where the same unsupported claims are made of a great deal of evidence being planted. What is rare and unique are cases where it has been proven that significant amounts of evidence were actually planted.
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I don't find there's anything "nutshell" about the case. I think it is very complex not just from an evidential perspective but also the entire judicial system from investigation to trial. And many other factors such as media involvement in shaping opinion.
We all have different backgrounds by way of life experiences, education etc and process information very differently so it is not surprising we arrive at different conclusions. When I say we I mean anyone who has an opinion on the case whether they be lay or professional. I don't believe enough experts have given opinion based on modern forensic science. Modern Forensic science was just coming to the fore at the time of JB's trial. Unfortunately blood pattern analysis was not used at trial and DNA evidence was not even available then.
Imo only expert opinion is capable of fundamentally changing the direction of the case based on modern forensic science.
I will give one example of why I believe the case is complex and the trial verdict potentially wrong. It was said by investigating officers eg DI Cook that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle (only one was found). Many posters also make this contention. I've posted research which suggests that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to texture. I have also exchanged emails with arguably one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints and he has advised the same due to the coating on firearms known as 'bluing'.
Puglove did make a point a while back about the wood stock and next time I speak with the expert I will endeavour to clarify this. Based on my email exchange with the expert I think he would have said if fingerprints can usually be found on the stock but it's not good to assume so for the sake of completeness I will check and report back.
I accept fingerprints are only one small aspect of the case but to my mind it shows incompetence among investigating officers. DI Cook was regarded as the fingerprint expert with 19 years experience. I don't necessarily blame him. What sort of training did he receive? Who was supervising him? Was he keeping up-to-date with his knowledge?
Email exchange between expert and myself sent to Myster for confirmation. I will not be putting this info in the public domain as the expert no doubt communicated with me on the basis of confidentiality.
Like all Bamber supporters, you choose to portray this case as being really complicated and deeply complex.
I find that it's the complete opposite! It is so bloody obvious, it's untrue!
If someone can't at the very least, concede that it was more likely Jeremy than Sheila, then I can't take them seriously.
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Like all Bamber supporters, you choose to portray this case as being really complicated and deeply complex.
I find that it's the complete opposite! It is so bloody obvious, it's untrue!
If someone can't at the very least, concede that it was more likely Jeremy than Sheila, then I can't take them seriously.
Occam's razor.
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Well, that hasn't helped.
I have read things in the past that lead me to suspect that Jeremy Bamber could be Innocent. But since I get insulted every time I try to discuss it, I have rather given up.
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Well, that hasn't helped.
I have read things in the past that lead me to suspect that Jeremy Bamber could be Innocent. But since I get insulted every time I try to discuss it, I have rather given up.
Well, thanks for adding to the debate.
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Well, thanks for adding to the debate.
b....r off. And just get on with your nasty debate. But then you don't actually want to talk to people like me because we might find you wanting.
The McCann Forum is suddenly looking infinitely preferable. If that is the best that you can do.
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Well, that hasn't helped.
I have read things in the past that lead me to suspect that Jeremy Bamber could be Innocent. But since I get insulted every time I try to discuss it, I have rather given up.
What things ? Be interesting to know.
People will agree or disagree with you. It's a forum.
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b....r off. And just get on with your nasty debate. But then you don't actually want to talk to people like me because we might find you wanting.
The McCann Forum is suddenly looking infinitely preferable. If that is the best that you can do.
Perhaps now you've gone, it'll get a little less nasty.
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Can I remind all members of the 3 high level rules on the home page please:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
* Libellous or defamatory material will be removed on sight
* Abuse will not be tolerated. Break the rules expect a ban!
Providing members are adhering to the above they are entitled to post whatever views they hold about the case, however unlikely they might seem to others, without fear of any sort of intimidation.
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Like all Bamber supporters, you choose to portray this case as being really complicated and deeply complex.
I find that it's the complete opposite! It is so bloody obvious, it's untrue!
If someone can't at the very least, concede that it was more likely Jeremy than Sheila, then I can't take them seriously.
Sika as you seem to see the case as simple and straightforward are you able to briefly state your main reasons why you believe the perp is far more likely to be JB than SC?
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Tin hat at the ready, Holly? 8(8-))
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Tin hat at the ready, Holly? 8(8-))
I've always enjoyed robust mass debating!
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I've always enjoyed robust mass debating!
Actually perhaps vigorous is a more appropriate word &%+((£
I do miss Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight.
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Actually perhaps vigorous is a more appropriate word &%+((£
I do miss Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight.
Kirsty's tracksuit bottoms should suit you to a T.
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I've always enjoyed robust mass debating!
Holly, for what it's worth, whilst you never succeed in persuading me of Jeremy's innocence, I think you, more than any other supporter, makes the most persuasive arguments. You also manage to do it in good humour, and don't take any criticism to heart.
I genuinely struggle to understand how someone as clever as you, can believe that Jezza is innocent!
I will get back to you with a comprehensive list of reasons, that convince me of his guilt. Must go and get my bets on now.
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Holly, for what it's worth, whilst you never succeed in persuading me of Jeremy's innocence, I think you, more than any other supporter, makes the most persuasive arguments. You also manage to do it in good humour, and don't take any criticism to heart.
I genuinely struggle to understand how someone as clever as you, can believe that Jezza is innocent!
I will get back to you with a comprehensive list of reasons, that convince me of his guilt. Must go and get my bets on now.
Thanks Sika. I look forward to hearing your list of reasons when you have time. Did you get lucky on Rule The World?
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I don't find there's anything "nutshell" about the case. I think it is very complex not just from an evidential perspective but also the entire judicial system from investigation to trial. And many other factors such as media involvement in shaping opinion.
We all have different backgrounds by way of life experiences, education etc and process information very differently so it is not surprising we arrive at different conclusions. When I say we I mean anyone who has an opinion on the case whether they be lay or professional. I don't believe enough experts have given opinion based on modern forensic science. Modern Forensic science was just coming to the fore at the time of JB's trial. Unfortunately blood pattern analysis was not used at trial and DNA evidence was not even available then.
Imo only expert opinion is capable of fundamentally changing the direction of the case based on modern forensic science.
I will give one example of why I believe the case is complex and the trial verdict potentially wrong. It was said by investigating officers eg DI Cook that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle (only one was found). Many posters also make this contention. I've posted research which suggests that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to texture. I have also exchanged emails with arguably one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints and he has advised the same due to the coating on firearms known as 'bluing'.
Puglove did make a point a while back about the wood stock and next time I speak with the expert I will endeavour to clarify this. Based on my email exchange with the expert I think he would have said if fingerprints can usually be found on the stock but it's not good to assume so for the sake of completeness I will check and report back.
I accept fingerprints are only one small aspect of the case but to my mind it shows incompetence among investigating officers. DI Cook was regarded as the fingerprint expert with 19 years experience. I don't necessarily blame him. What sort of training did he receive? Who was supervising him? Was he keeping up-to-date with his knowledge?
Email exchange between expert and myself sent to Myster for confirmation. I will not be putting this info in the public domain as the expert no doubt communicated with me on the basis of confidentiality.
I don't agree Holly. Having read just about everything there is in the public domain about this case and having studied the evidence I find it rather cut and dried. And that is even before I input Julie Mugford's excellent contribution.
I have always said I have an open mind and would always consider carefully any new evidence which could undermine his conviction. I know only too well what it is like to be wrongfully prosecuted, to have State entities tell a load of lies about you to a jury and not being able to do anything about it. If I thought for a moment that Jeremy was innocent I would do all I could to support him but that appears further away than ever. As it stands I just can't see him being innocent of involvement in the massacre of his family.
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This case is not any different from most. It is not complex from a legal standpoint it was very straightforward. You ignore the evidence that proves Jeremy guilty and create strawmen. Jeremy wasn't convicted on the basis that if Sheila was guilty there would have been more of her prints on the weapon. This is a strawman created to imply there was no substantial evidence. He was convicted because a witness said he was planning to kill his family and to frame Sheila, physical evidence established that Sheila was murdered and framed, his various lies and claims about being phoned by Nevill which were not in the least bit credible. He wasn't convicted on a whim.
It is not unique for people to become supporters and to ignore evidence and try to pretend there was insufficient evidence to convict in cases like this where there is substantial evidence. This happens in a great number of cases. Look at the recent publicity in the Steven Avery case. Teresa Halbach went to his property and that was the last time she was heard from. Aside from a confession from Avery's nephew her vehicle was found hidden in brush on his property, her license was found in his home, her blood was found in his home and more. As we speak people are suggesting that someone planted Teresa Halbach's car and all the other evidence in order to frame him. This is no different than the wild claims about Jeremy being framed and there are plenty of other cases where the same unsupported claims are made of a great deal of evidence being planted. What is rare and unique are cases where it has been proven that significant amounts of evidence were actually planted.
I acknowledged the lack of fingerprints on the rifle was a fairly insignificant aspect of the case. The reason I made the point was to highlight incompetence among investigating officers especially DI Cook who was responsible for fingerprinting. I'm not sure it even made its way to trial? DS Jones made much of whether or not JB wore gloves re his claims of bunny hunting. JM's testimony included claims that JB feared a glove might have fallen off. Even Paul Harrison's book claims JB wiped the rifle with the blue socks. Well it seems they were all wrong as firearms and fingerprints don't mix. Google 'firearms and fingerprints' and check it out for yourself. Wow I hope no one nicks my idea(s) 8)><(
The above can set trains of thought along certain tracks.
What physical evidence would you expect to find on SC?
There's no evidence of hand-to-hand combat between victims and SC or JB.
June was shot whilst in bed and NB on the stairs imo but even if NB was shot in bed as you claim these initial shots were fired at a distance of around 3' away plus the length of the rifle separated victim and perp. Enough distance to avoid the perp sustaining any blood spatter from the Eley .22 hollow point subsonic bullets if indeed they were capable of producing any back spatter. There's no blood stains anywhere indicative of blood spatter/high impact velocity spatter eg on the bedding, victims' nightwear, carpets, walls, furniture or rifle. Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound it reduces blood presssure reducing the potential for back spatter from any subsequent gunshot wounds.
Although the bullets are low velocity they are lethal due to the hollow point design. The first shots fired would have incapacitated June and NB to such a degree it would not be possible for them to put up any resistance. The idea that NB could sustain two hollow point bullets in his face fired at close range and a further shot to the back of his shoulder causing total incapacitation to his left arm and yet put up some sort of "violent struggle" is just not plausible imo.
The UK and US have strict laws restricting the use of hollow point bullets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9nXeXqEho
It is also claimed the perp beat NB with the rifle, or some other blunt instrument, but there's no evidence this caused medium impact spatter normally associated from a blunt weapon. Again there's no medium impact spatter anywhere eg rifle, NB's pyjamas, floor, walls, furniture, ceiling.
Why would you expect to find spatter on the perp and none elsewhere?
Whether SC was the perp or a victim the rifle was found resting across her chest with her hand/fingers also resting on the rifle. The rifle was fired a total of 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained two contact wounds I don't buy into the lack of GSR argument. I believe SC's nightdress was tested weeks later and her hands were swabbed at PM AFTER they had been placed in bags and her body moved.
I think most just cannot get their heads round a female, especially a middle class, attractive and slim one, meting out the sort of violence evidenced at WHF. Females are traditionally seen as nurturing and passive and men as aggressive. This is clearly a myth regardless of mental health issues. In the UK during the last few days 3 young females have been given lengthy prison sentences for very serious acts of violence. Happens all the time.
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I don't agree Holly. Having read just about everything there is in the public domain about this case and having studied the evidence I find it rather cut and dried. And that is even before I input Julie Mugford's excellent contribution.
I have always said I have an open mind and would always consider carefully any new evidence which could undermine his conviction. I know only too well what it is like to be wrongfully prosecuted, to have State entities tell a load of lies about you to a jury and not being able to do anything about it. If I thought for a moment that Jeremy was innocent I would do all I could to support him but that appears further away than ever. As it stands I just can't see him being innocent of involvement in the massacre of his family.
Yes we don't agree on the case but at least we are able to debate it civilly. And thank you for letting me post my polar opposite views on your forum 8((()*/ X
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Yes we don't agree on the case but at least we are able to debate it civilly. And thank you for letting me post my polar opposite views on your forum 8((()*/ X
I welcome your views and fair play to you for airing them so forthrightly. I have a sneaky suspicion though that you are not as sold on Jeremy being innocent as you sometimes proclaim? Could I be right per chance? £4%4%
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I welcome your views and fair play to you for airing them so forthrightly. I have a sneaky suspicion though that you are not as sold on Jeremy being innocent as you sometimes proclaim? Could I be right per chance? £4%4%
I suspect so, too.
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I acknowledged the lack of fingerprints on the rifle was a fairly insignificant aspect of the case. The reason I made the point was to highlight incompetence among investigating officers especially DI Cook who was responsible for fingerprinting. I'm not sure it even made its way to trial? DS Jones made much of whether or not JB wore gloves re his claims of bunny hunting. JM's testimony included claims that JB feared a glove might have fallen off. Even Paul Harrison's book claims JB wiped the rifle with the blue socks. Well it seems they were all wrong as firearms and fingerprints don't mix. Google 'firearms and fingerprints' and check it out for yourself. Wow I hope no one nicks my idea(s) 8)><(
1) the killer wearing gloves explains why there was no prints in blood. The suspect and victim all had reasons for their prints to be at WHF. Thus finding their prints would mean nothing. Prints in blood in contrast would be evidence of who the killer was. The weapon had blood on it, particularly the stock. The killer's hand was touching the bloody stock. The killer would have left bloody prints on the weapon and it could have gotten on the killer's fingers to be left elsewhere. Gloves are what would prevent such. This is why gloves were a big deal. If they could prove that Jeremy had gloves that vanished right after the murders...
2) Cook didn't believe Jeremy was guilty at first. he agreed with Taff Jones. Both of them ignored considerable evidence. Saying he had lousy intuition and didn't investigate what he should have hurts Jeremy supporters because it is saying the cop that was supporting you was an inept fool and that is why police didn't realize even sooner that Jeremy did it.
3) The blood on the socks are static drips of June's blood. The round drops are made by static drips. Harrison's suggestion that the socks were used to wipe blood is false. All the socks prove is that June stood over them dripping blood on them. IF the socks were in that place when June dripped blood on them it means she walked that far around the bed. If they were in a different location when she bled on them and they were moved subsequently then maybe June didn't walk that far around the bed before turning around. Because of the carpet testing we know she was at the foot of Nevill's side of the bed. It makes little difference whether she walked another foot on Nevill's side or simply turned around and walked back. Maybe Jeremy moved the socks to try to get police to June had been on Nevill's side of the bed when shot. I doubt Jeremy had that much forethought and
find it much more likely they were not moved. There is no way to know for sure whether they were moved or not unless Jeremy decided to confess fully and accurately detail everything.
The above can set trains of thought along certain tracks.
What physical evidence would you expect to find on SC?
There's no evidence of hand-to-hand combat between victims and SC or JB.
One would expect to find medium velocity back spatter and gunshot residue on the killer's clothing and body. Sheila had none. Jeremy's clothing was not taken and tested right away and his body was not inspected. Jeremy had the ability to wash and change before calling police so there is no way to know what he was wearing.
Sheila had no reason to wash and change and no ability to change her clothes without her evidence stained clothing being found at the scene.
Furthermore, one would expect the right hand of the killer to have some damage form when the stock of the weapon broke. At minimum the killer would have suffered scratching and splinters if not an actual cut UNLESS the killer was wearing gloves. Moreover, using the weapon to batter will cause blistering to a hand. There will be friction damage. So in addition to preventing the killer's prints being left in blood the gloves also would have protected the killer's hand from damage.
Sheila had no damage of any kind to her hands.
Also there would be damage to her long nails if she had been using the weapon to batter Nevill. No damage of any kind was observed.
June was shot whilst in bed and NB on the stairs imo but even if NB was shot in bed as you claim these initial shots were fired at a distance of around 3' away plus the length of the rifle separated victim and perp. Enough distance to avoid the perp sustaining any blood spatter from the Eley .22 hollow point subsonic bullets if indeed they were capable of producing any back spatter. There's no blood stains anywhere indicative of blood spatter/high impact velocity spatter eg on the bedding, victims' nightwear, carpets, walls, furniture or rifle. Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound it reduces blood presssure reducing the potential for back spatter from any subsequent gunshot wounds.
You are conflating a number of issues.
1) Multiple wounds in close proximity actually increases the likelihood of spatter it doesn't reduce it.
2) The distance of the shots was close enough that the killer could have been hit with high velocity spatter
3) The location of the wounds will dictate whether spatter would have occurred
4) High velocity impact spatter is very small, it is very easy for police to miss. Only if they tested all the bedding and objects for the presence of blood and yet found none could you saw whether any spatter hit any objects or not. They did not do such testing so we have no way to assert anything in this regard.
5) Not only the shooter but others nearby a victims when shot cane be hit with high velocity spatter.
Were there wounds that could have resulted in high velocity impact spatter? yes
Was the shooter close enough to get hit by high velocity impact spatter? yes
Did they find any high velocity impact spatter on Sheila? No so there was no basis to go further and try to assess whether it was the product of her doing the shooting or simply being nearby while a victim was shot.
Did they test Jeremy for high velocity impact spatter? No. More than a month later they seized some of his clothing but by that time he could have disposed of whatever he wore or laundered it. They found tiny red marks on a jacket but were unable to determine what substance the marks were. As such they could not establish he was hit with high velocity impact spatter though he may have been.
In the absence of actually finding impact spatter the only way to establish for sure the killer would have been hit by high velocity impact spatter would be if:
1) it were determined a shot was in a location that definitely would result in high velocity impact back spatter
and
2) the range of the shot for sure was a distance at which the killer would have to have been hit by it
No experts assessed that any of the gunshot wounds for sure would have resulted in impact spatter and at a range where the killer would have been hit for sure. This is why it was never argued anywhere that Sheila would have had high velocity impact spatter had she been the killer. It is why I have stated many times that while it is possible the Jeremy got hit with high velocity spatter we don't know for sure.
While it is true that the killer did not necessarily get hit with high velocity spatter you present inaccurate info wile arriving at your conclusion. I don't correct the record in order to show off I correct the record to prevent any of the errors from being applied in other cases or even in this case.
Although the bullets are low velocity they are lethal due to the hollow point design. The first shots fired would have incapacitated June and NB to such a degree it would not be possible for them to put up any resistance. The idea that NB could sustain two hollow point bullets in his face fired at close range and a further shot to the back of his shoulder causing total incapacitation to his left arm and yet put up some sort of "violent struggle" is just not plausible imo.
The UK and US have strict laws restricting the use of hollow point bullets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb9nXeXqEho
Nevill was shot in the master bedroom in the lip and the jaw. The medical experts said these wounds were not serious enough to inhibit his mobility. This is supported not only by considerable medical evidence but by the fact he did in fact walk from the bedroom to the kitchen after receiving such wounds. June's first wound was a very serious headshot that would have killed her in short order. Despite such and being shot 5 more times right away, she got out of bed and walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door before collapsing. That was a much more serious wound than the Nevill's lip and jaw wounds.
Your opinion that Nevill would not have been able to fight back is not a scientific one it is one you have based purely on your bias in this case where you don't want to face the truth. That same bias makes you close your eyes to the considerable evidence Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle. You know that th ekiller woudl have been hit with medium velocity spatter and sheila would have damaged her nails so pretend it never happened so you can still pretend in your mind that Sheila did it.
It is also claimed the perp beat NB with the rifle, or some other blunt instrument, but there's no evidence this caused medium impact spatter normally associated from a blunt weapon. Again there's no medium impact spatter anywhere eg rifle, NB's pyjamas, floor, walls, furniture, ceiling.
Why would you expect to find spatter on the perp and none elsewhere?
Whether SC was the perp or a victim the rifle was found resting across her chest with her hand/fingers also resting on the rifle. The rifle was fired a total of 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained two contact wounds I don't buy into the lack of GSR argument. I believe SC's nightdress was tested weeks later and her hands were swabbed at PM AFTER they had been placed in bags and her body moved.
I think most just cannot get their heads round a female, especially a middle class, attractive and slim one, meting out the sort of violence evidenced at WHF. Females are traditionally seen as nurturing and passive and men as aggressive. This is clearly a myth regardless of mental health issues. In the UK during the last few days 3 young females have been given lengthy prison sentences for very serious acts of violence. Happens all the time.
How many times are you going to hide from reality? The stock of the weapon had medium velocity impact spatter on it as did some of the metal parts of the rifle. In the past you denied the stock had blood on it and I proved you were wrong and that it did. The blood would not have simply hit the weapon but also the person holding it. Someone touching a bloody stock would leave their prints in such blood and also transfer such blood to other objects they touched. When firing the weapon subsequently the stock would be against the clothing of the shooter and transfer it. The spatter that got on the stock was thus subsequently smeared.
You continuously present the false claim that they analyzed all the blood on all the objects though they didn't. They didn't take all objects that had blood, didn't record all blood drops that might have been on furnishings and they destroyed plenty of things that had blood including the quilt. You simply make up the quilt had no blood though you can't say such unless they had tested it and found no blood.
You want to pretend Nevill was beaten while he was unconscious instead of as he was trying to defend himself.
You ignore the casings that were in the bedroom and the bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom, ignore that it is impossible to deliver any of Nevill's wounds if he had been on the stairs and simply say he was shot on the stairs anyway.
You decided that you want to believe Jeremy is innocent and try casting the evidence in a way that comports with your desired beliefs as opposed to simply taking the evidence as it is and following it to its logical conclusion.
Destroying the bedding without testing it prevents us from knowing how much blood was on it, where any blood was and whose blood it was. It is totally inaccurate to say that because it was destroyed without being tested that means there was no blood of Nevill's on it. This is just one example where you turn things on their head. in fact you turn thing son their head by admitting spatter doesn't always occur and yet saying there would have to be spatter from Nevill on the bed if he were sitting on it when he was shot in the lip and jaw. That's not true and thus the lack of his blood would fail to prove he wasn't shot while sitting on the bed. The angle of his wounds as well as the location of the casings establish that is where he was shot. Those are reliable indicators which you close your eyes to because they harm your preferred view of Jeremy being innocent.
Your preferred view guides you as opposed to following the evidence where it leads. If you just follow the evidence without any agenda it makes life far easier because you don't need to contort anyway. It makes it far easier when you try to explain and justify your views.
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An excellent post Scipio. The absence of a single spot of anyone else's blood on Sheila is the clincher for me, this cannot be explained away. She would not have had time to wash before the calvary arrived and in any event her hair was dry and unwashed. There wasn't a sngle drop of blood in it.
Jeremy made a classic error in attempting to implicate Sheila because he didn't think through adequately the various scenarios. The first non fatal shot to Sheila's neck was probably his worst mistake. He then had to make it look like a double shot suicide, something which is incredibly difficult to fake. For Sheila to be able to take that second shot meant that she was not incapacitated. If she was not incapacitated then she had an excruciating burning pain in her neck yet still she never put a finger to it. I'm afraid it just doesn't work!
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An excellent post Scipio. The absence of a single spot of anyone else's blood on Sheila is the clincher for me, this cannot be explained away. She would not have had time to wash before the calvary arrived and in any event her hair was dry and unwashed. There wasn't a sngle drop of blood in it.
Jeremy made a classic error in attempting to implicate Sheila because he didn't think through adequately the various scenarios. The first non fatal shot to Sheila's neck was probably his worst mistake. He then had to make it look like a double shot suicide, something which is incredibly difficult to fake. For Sheila to be able to take that second shot meant that she was not incapacitated. If she was not incapacitated then she had an excruciating burning pain in her neck yet still she never put a finger to it. I'm afraid it just doesn't work!
It is the absence of Nevill's blood which is a huge problem. His blood was on the weapon and would have hit the killer not just the weapon being wielded by the killer. The lack of damage of any kind to her hands and nails also reveals she wasn't the one who wielded it. This of course comports with the moderator evidence and Bible evidence (the Bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried). It also comports with the lack of GSR on her clothing and body.
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I also have a huge problem why Sheila would choose to kill herself in the position she was found, in my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever. Then there is the assault on her beloved adoptive father Nevill, she adored the man so again I have a real problem with this for so many reasons. And finally, I agree that foir Sheila to have done what the Bamber supporters claim she did and end up in such a pristine condition is a claim too far. It just isn't logical by any stretch of the imagination. I will add that no trace of blood was found in the bathroom or on any towels in the bathroom at the farm which gives further support to the fact that Sheila did not wash after the murders.
Finally, it should be pointed out that specks of blood were found in several places associated with Jeremy Bamber. He also had strange marks on his arm which Julie Mugford recorded as seeing. He also told Julie that the assassin had lost a glove during the altercation with Nevill. Was this really something an innocent man would invent?
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1) the killer wearing gloves explains why there was no prints in blood. The suspect and victim all had reasons for their prints to be at WHF. Thus finding their prints would mean nothing. Prints in blood in contrast would be evidence of who the killer was. The weapon had blood on it, particularly the stock. The killer's hand was touching the bloody stock. The killer would have left bloody prints on the weapon and it could have gotten on the killer's fingers to be left elsewhere. Gloves are what would prevent such. This is why gloves were a big deal. If they could prove that Jeremy had gloves that vanished right after the murders...
If the perp wore gloves then void patterns would be a natural outcome. There was no evidence of void patterns as the low velocity bullets are unlikely to produce high velocity back spatter. The rifle contained blood in the form of "splashes" and "smears" which is inconsistent with high velocity back spatter. Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the likelihood of subsequent wounds causing back spatter are reduced due to changes in physiology ie blood pressure.
2) Cook didn't believe Jeremy was guilty at first. he agreed with Taff Jones. Both of them ignored considerable evidence. Saying he had lousy intuition and didn't investigate what he should have hurts Jeremy supporters because it is saying the cop that was supporting you was an inept fool and that is why police didn't realize even sooner that Jeremy did it.
I certainly haven't claimed DI Cook had lousy intution or made any adverse comments about him other than pointing out his claims that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle. This is wrong. Google 'fingerprints and firearms' and you can see for yourself that a whole variety of reasons hamper recovery of fingerprints from firearms. Given that DI Cook was the fingerprint expert this does show a lack of incompetence on his part and/or a lack of training/supervision in the area of fingerprinting.
3) The blood on the socks are static drips of June's blood. The round drops are made by static drips. Harrison's suggestion that the socks were used to wipe blood is false. All the socks prove is that June stood over them dripping blood on them. IF the socks were in that place when June dripped blood on them it means she walked that far around the bed. If they were in a different location when she bled on them and they were moved subsequently then maybe June didn't walk that far around the bed before turning around. Because of the carpet testing we know she was at the foot of Nevill's side of the bed. It makes little difference whether she walked another foot on Nevill's side or simply turned around and walked back. Maybe Jeremy moved the socks to try to get police to June had been on Nevill's side of the bed when shot. I doubt Jeremy had that much forethought and
find it much more likely they were not moved. There is no way to know for sure whether they were moved or not unless Jeremy decided to confess fully and accurately detail everything.
Agreed.
One would expect to find medium velocity back spatter and gunshot residue on the killer's clothing and body. Sheila had none. Jeremy's clothing was not taken and tested right away and his body was not inspected. Jeremy had the ability to wash and change before calling police so there is no way to know what he was wearing.
Sheila had no reason to wash and change and no ability to change her clothes without her evidence stained clothing being found at the scene.
Why would one expect to find medium velcoity spatter on the rifle when there was not even enough to permit blood grouping analysis? If the rifle was used to wield blows to NB and you are expecting medium impact spatter on the rifle and perp why not other objects too such as walls, ceiling, furniture and the cream aga? Two tiny blood stains on the landing carpet were analysed along with a small section of wallpaper around the hall/kitchen entrance. If blood was present elsewhere it would have been noted. I believe there was some blood around the aga, according to CAL's book, but again this was in the form of smears and not representative of high or medium impact spatter from gunshot wounds.
The rifle was fired 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained 2 contact gunshot wounds. The rifle was found across her body with her hand resting on the rifle so the fact no GSR was found means diddly squat. Did swabbing take place at SoC? No it took place at the lab after SC's hands had been placed in bags and she had been transported from WHF in a body bag to the path lab. Her nightdress was not tested straight away and there's no evidence to suggest it was handled in a manner conducive to preserving GSR.
Furthermore, one would expect the right hand of the killer to have some damage form when the stock of the weapon broke. At minimum the killer would have suffered scratching and splinters if not an actual cut UNLESS the killer was wearing gloves. Moreover, using the weapon to batter will cause blistering to a hand. There will be friction damage. So in addition to preventing the killer's prints being left in blood the gloves also would have protected the killer's hand from damage.
Sheila had no damage of any kind to her hands.
Also there would be damage to her long nails if she had been using the weapon to batter Nevill. No damage of any kind was observed.
Was the broken stock forensically analysed for biological material or fibres from any glove used? No. It is not known how the stock broke. If it was being swung around like a golf club with the stock used as a club head it may have hit a number of items including NB's bones. Therfore the perp might not have had his/her hand on the stock when it broke. It's all pure speculation.
When the pathologist was asked about the potential damage to SC's nails from loading and firing the weapon he said he was not qualified to give an opinion. All this business about fingernails is nothing other than sexist comments from uninformed males. One only has to look at the nails/polish adorning the hands of the William sisters on the tennis courts to know that nails are hardy. Not only do Serena and Venus engage in gruelling rallies hitting tennis balls reaching in excess of 100 mph but they undergo extensive training regimes eg lifting weights etc. This would be like me trying to convince males that if they are hit hard in the nuts it doesn't hurt!
You are conflating a number of issues.
1) Multiple wounds in close proximity actually increases the likelihood of spatter it doesn't reduce it.
2) The distance of the shots was close enough that the killer could have been hit with high velocity spatter
3) The location of the wounds will dictate whether spatter would have occurred
4) High velocity impact spatter is very small, it is very easy for police to miss. Only if they tested all the bedding and objects for the presence of blood and yet found none could you saw whether any spatter hit any objects or not. They did not do such testing so we have no way to assert anything in this regard.
5) Not only the shooter but others nearby a victims when shot cane be hit with high velocity spatter.
Were there wounds that could have resulted in high velocity impact spatter? yes
Was the shooter close enough to get hit by high velocity impact spatter? yes
Did they find any high velocity impact spatter on Sheila? No so there was no basis to go further and try to assess whether it was the product of her doing the shooting or simply being nearby while a victim was shot.
Did they test Jeremy for high velocity impact spatter? No. More than a month later they seized some of his clothing but by that time he could have disposed of whatever he wore or laundered it. They found tiny red marks on a jacket but were unable to determine what substance the marks were. As such they could not establish he was hit with high velocity impact spatter though he may have been.
In the absence of actually finding impact spatter the only way to establish for sure the killer would have been hit by high velocity impact spatter would be if:
1) it were determined a shot was in a location that definitely would result in high velocity impact back spatter
and
2) the range of the shot for sure was a distance at which the killer would have to have been hit by it
No experts assessed that any of the gunshot wounds for sure would have resulted in impact spatter and at a range where the killer would have been hit for sure. This is why it was never argued anywhere that Sheila would have had high velocity impact spatter had she been the killer. It is why I have stated many times that while it is possible the Jeremy got hit with high velocity spatter we don't know for sure.
While it is true that the killer did not necessarily get hit with high velocity spatter you present inaccurate info wile arriving at your conclusion. I don't correct the record in order to show off I correct the record to prevent any of the errors from being applied in other cases or even in this case.
Many factors affect high velocity back spatter from gunshot wounds, especially bullet velocity. What is closer to a victim when they sustain a gunshot wound the firearm or the perp? The firearm. The rifle was foresnically analysed. It contained blood "smears" and "splashes" and no evidence of high velocity impact spatter which represents a fine mist. Therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain high impact blood spatter on his/her person.
There's no evidence tiny blood stains found on JB's clothing were in any way connected to the murders. If one was to foresnically analyse most mens clothing, especially farmers, they are likely to find small blood stains from shaving and minor scrapes during the course of their work.
Nevill was shot in the master bedroom in the lip and the jaw. The medical experts said these wounds were not serious enough to inhibit his mobility. This is supported not only by considerable medical evidence but by the fact he did in fact walk from the bedroom to the kitchen after receiving such wounds. June's first wound was a very serious headshot that would have killed her in short order. Despite such and being shot 5 more times right away, she got out of bed and walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door before collapsing. That was a much more serious wound than the Nevill's lip and jaw wounds.
There's no evidence NB was shot in the bedroom. I agree NB was still mobile after sustaining the four GSW's upstairs but as per the pathologist he was in considerable pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and had lost the use of his left arm. The pathologist said NB put up a "spirited defence" this is not the same as entering a "violent struggle". The pathologist makes it clear that had other injuries not supervened the two facial shots would have eventually killed NB.
Your opinion that Nevill would not have been able to fight back is not a scientific one it is one you have based purely on your bias in this case where you don't want to face the truth. That same bias makes you close your eyes to the considerable evidence Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle. You know that th ekiller woudl have been hit with medium velocity spatter and sheila would have damaged her nails so pretend it never happened so you can still pretend in your mind that Sheila did it.
How many times are you going to hide from reality? The stock of the weapon had medium velocity impact spatter on it as did some of the metal parts of the rifle. In the past you denied the stock had blood on it and I proved you were wrong and that it did. The blood would not have simply hit the weapon but also the person holding it. Someone touching a bloody stock would leave their prints in such blood and also transfer such blood to other objects they touched. When firing the weapon subsequently the stock would be against the clothing of the shooter and transfer it. The spatter that got on the stock was thus subsequently smeared.
You continuously present the false claim that they analyzed all the blood on all the objects though they didn't. They didn't take all objects that had blood, didn't record all blood drops that might have been on furnishings and they destroyed plenty of things that had blood including the quilt. You simply make up the quilt had no blood though you can't say such unless they had tested it and found no blood.
You want to pretend Nevill was beaten while he was unconscious instead of as he was trying to defend himself.
You ignore the casings that were in the bedroom and the bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom, ignore that it is impossible to deliver any of Nevill's wounds if he had been on the stairs and simply say he was shot on the stairs anyway.
You decided that you want to believe Jeremy is innocent and try casting the evidence in a way that comports with your desired beliefs as opposed to simply taking the evidence as it is and following it to its logical conclusion.
Destroying the bedding without testing it prevents us from knowing how much blood was on it, where any blood was and whose blood it was. It is totally inaccurate to say that because it was destroyed without being tested that means there was no blood of Nevill's on it. This is just one example where you turn things on their head. in fact you turn thing son their head by admitting spatter doesn't always occur and yet saying there would have to be spatter from Nevill on the bed if he were sitting on it when he was shot in the lip and jaw. That's not true and thus the lack of his blood would fail to prove he wasn't shot while sitting on the bed. The angle of his wounds as well as the location of the casings establish that is where he was shot. Those are reliable indicators which you close your eyes to because they harm your preferred view of Jeremy being innocent.
Your preferred view guides you as opposed to following the evidence where it leads. If you just follow the evidence without any agenda it makes life far easier because you don't need to contort anyway. It makes it far easier when you try to explain and justify your views.
All of the above have already been answered in points above (repeating yourself doesn't make your points more valid) other than your claims that bedding from the main bedroom was destroyed before being forensically analysed. According to DC Hammersly's trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom and forensically analysed. The only bedding that was destroyed and not forensically analysed was that from the twins room. This was tipped out of the window straight onto a trailer and burned in the grounds.
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It is the absence of Nevill's blood which is a huge problem. His blood was on the weapon and would have hit the killer not just the weapon being wielded by the killer. The lack of damage of any kind to her hands and nails also reveals she wasn't the one who wielded it. This of course comports with the moderator evidence and Bible evidence (the Bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried). It also comports with the lack of GSR on her clothing and body.
Blood, nails and gsr covered in post above.
Was the blood on the bible forensically analysed? If it was the results are unknown. We have no idea whose blood was on the bible.
According to RWB's WS's June read the bible in bed. June was a deeply religious woman and having sustained gunshot wounds whilst in bed she was still able to move herself from her side of the bed to NB's side. It is possible that she held the bible and dropped it NB's side of the bed with the blood originating from June's gunshot injuries. The bible may then have been moved by the perp accessing the twins rooms from the main bedroom via the box room and back again thus opening and closing the door causing the bible to move. The perp may have knowingly or unknowingly moved the bible or it might even have been moved by Crispy nudging it.
The idea JB staged the bible and all the rest of it is pure speculation.
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I also have a huge problem why Sheila would choose to kill herself in the position she was found, in my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever. Then there is the assault on her beloved adoptive father Nevill, she adored the man so again I have a real problem with this for so many reasons. And finally, I agree that foir Sheila to have done what the Bamber supporters claim she did and end up in such a pristine condition is a claim too far. It just isn't logical by any stretch of the imagination. I will add that no trace of blood was found in the bathroom or on any towels in the bathroom at the farm which gives further support to the fact that Sheila did not wash after the murders.
Finally, it should be pointed out that specks of blood were found in several places associated with Jeremy Bamber. He also had strange marks on his arm which Julie Mugford recorded as seeing. He also told Julie that the assassin had lost a glove during the altercation with Nevill. Was this really something an innocent man would invent?
I think I've answered most of the points you raise John via posts to Scipio above other than the following:
We don't know how SC's relationship with NB and June were affected by her reunion with her birth family which took place only weeks before the murders. Maybe NB was unhappy about this. Certainly CC and Sheila's best friend Tora Tompkins met SC's birth mother but NB and June didn't.
AE observed JB's arms on 9th Aug and noted they were without any marks
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3419.msg143404#msg143404
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Was the blood on the bible forensically analysed? If it was the results are unknown. We have no idea whose blood was on the bible.
According to RWB's WS's June read the bible in bed. June was a deeply religious woman and having sustained gunshot wounds whilst in bed she was still able to move herself from her side of the bed to NB's side. It is possible that she held the bible and dropped it NB's side of the bed with the blood originating from June's gunshot injuries. The bible may then have been moved by the perp accessing the twins rooms from the main bedroom via the box room and back again thus opening and closing the door causing the bible to move. The perp may have knowingly or unknowingly moved the bible or it might even have been moved by Crispy nudging it.
The idea JB staged the bible and all the rest of it is pure speculation.
Geez... your door shoving/Crispy nudging theory IS speculation!
The part I agree with is that June, being an allegedly light sleeper, might have been reading the bible in bed when it all kicked off.
But... when first shot in the neck, she automatically felt the wound with her hand which became covered in blood and the female? palm print (if Caroline's theory is true) was applied when she tried to get hold of the bible again after having at first dropped it. The book then closed on its own which created the vague matching impression on the opposite page. As she got up and wandered around the room, the bible remained on the bed or fell to the floor on her bedside. Thinking on the fly, JB after having killed Sheila, decided to place it on her opened at the blood-stained pages to give the impression she was reading it while in a religious mania for forgiveness at what she had done. QED
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Geez... your door shoving/Crispy nudging theory IS speculation!
The part I agree with is that June, being an allegedly light sleeper, might have been reading the bible in bed when it all kicked off.
But... when first shot in the neck, she automatically felt the wound with her hand which became covered in blood and the female? palm print (if Caroline's theory is true) was applied when she tried to get hold of the bible again after having at first dropped it. The book then closed on its own which created the vague matching impression on the opposite page. As she got up and wandered around the room, the bible remained on the bed or fell to the floor on her bedside. Thinking on the fly, JB after having killed Sheila, decided to place it on her opened at the blood-stained pages to give the impression she was reading it while in a religious mania for forgiveness at what she had done. QED
Yes I agree my door opening/Crispy nudging theories are speculation and that's why I used the word "may". Scipio posts his theories as fact eg "the bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried".
1. No proof whose blood was on the bible.
2. No proof the blood on the bible was SC's as opposed to June's.
3. No proof the bible was moved after SC's death but before the blood had dried.
If JB staged the bible why not lay it on thick with officers about SC and religiosity? JB never once mentioned such to officers either on the phone or whilst stood outside at WHF. He only passed comment on her mental illness.
I think June probably went round NB's side of the bed intending to use the phone and I can imagine her holding the bible due to her strong faith. As far as I can see it's as plausible and possible as other theories put forward.
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Yes I agree my door opening/Crispy nudging theories are speculation and that's why I used the word "may". Scipio posts his theories as fact eg "the bible was moved after her death but before her blood dried".
1. No proof whose blood was on the bible.
2. No proof the blood on the bible was SC's as opposed to June's.
3. No proof the bible was moved after SC's death but before the blood had dried.
If JB staged the bible why not lay it on thick with officers about SC and religiosity? JB never once mentioned such to officers either on the phone or whilst stood outside at WHF. He only passed comment on her mental illness.
I think June probably went round NB's side of the bed intending to use the phone and I can imagine her holding the bible due to her strong faith. As far as I can see it's as plausible and possible as other theories put forward.
But boy, how he laid it on thick about Sheila being armed, deranged and dangerous when she was nothing of the sort!
Jeremy: She’s a depressive psychopath, she’s been having psychiatric treatment, she only came out of hospital about six weeks ago.
Myall: Is she capable of using a gun?
Jeremy: Yes, she used to come target shooting with me and she’s used all the guns before. (when she had done no such thing, of course!)
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Bews said in a documentary Bamber was volunteering information which usually the police have to ask for.
Bamber quickly suggested Sheila could have shot everyone 'that moved things up a notch' said Bews.
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If the perp wore gloves then void patterns would be a natural outcome. There was no evidence of void patterns as the low velocity bullets are unlikely to produce high velocity back spatter. The rifle contained blood in the form of "splashes" and "smears" which is inconsistent with high velocity back spatter. Once a victim sustains a gunshot wound the likelihood of subsequent wounds causing back spatter are reduced due to changes in physiology ie blood pressure.
The only void patterns that gloves would cause would be a void the killer's hands would be devoid of blood while blood would still be found on their arms/ other clothing.
Many times you have made up the nonsense that 22 calibers are unlikely to produce backspatter but such is false. You take evidence that says the larger the bullet the more likely and you then make up this means unlikely. The likelihood depends on the location of the shot. The availability of blood in the location of the shot and nature of the body part including skin in that area will determine such.
There are tons of cases where spatter has been found from 22LR weapons. The speed of 22LR bullets is greater than many larger bullets including 45 caliber bullets. You make way too many broad claims that are not true.
Spatter was found on the moderator and a few forward areas of the rifle. We don't know which victims such came from and don't know if the killer was also hit or not.
The blood on the stock clearly was from bashing Nevill not high velocity spatter. The quantity was much more substantial. The killer's hand was on the stock as it was being bashed into Nevill and no doubt some blood got on such hand not merely on the stock. It got on the glove no doubt. There is no doubt the glove had blood on the palm side not merely the back hand side. Blood was transferred from the glove to the broken area. When firing the gun after Nevill was beaten the killer had to touch the area of the stock that was broken to fire it. If the killer had been holding it bare handed blood would have been on the killer's hands and prints would have been left.
I just watched a program about a case where a wife drugged her husband then killed him and got his blood on her hands. For some stupid reason she threw the syringe in the trash can instead of taking it from the house. She dumped his body and reported him missing. Upon searching the house they found the syringe with her bloody print on it. No doubt the murder weapon also had her bloody prints on it but that she had enough sense to toss somewhere away from the house so it was never recovered. When people handle bloody objects especially weapons they leave prints on it or even other objects. The lack of any prints reveals quite clearly the killer was wearing gloves and the lack of any spatter on Sheila establishes she was no where near Nevill when he was beaten.
I certainly haven't claimed DI Cook had lousy intution or made any adverse comments about him other than pointing out his claims that had SC been responsible he would have expected to find more of her fingerprints on the rifle. This is wrong. Google 'fingerprints and firearms' and you can see for yourself that a whole variety of reasons hamper recovery of fingerprints from firearms. Given that DI Cook was the fingerprint expert this does show a lack of incompetence on his part and/or a lack of training/supervision in the area of fingerprinting.
Agreed.
Even after he found only 1 of her prints he still believed she did it. He still agreed with Taff Jones nothing had changed. The lack of her prints in blood is what is significant because if she handled the bloody weapon she would have left her prints on it and probably elsewhere. No one's prints were found in blood because gloves were worn.
Why would one expect to find medium velcoity spatter on the rifle when there was not even enough to permit blood grouping analysis? If the rifle was used to wield blows to NB and you are expecting medium impact spatter on the rifle and perp why not other objects too such as walls, ceiling, furniture and the cream aga? Two tiny blood stains on the landing carpet were analysed along with a small section of wallpaper around the hall/kitchen entrance. If blood was present elsewhere it would have been noted. I believe there was some blood around the aga, according to CAL's book, but again this was in the form of smears and not representative of high or medium impact spatter from gunshot wounds.
The experts described the blood on the rifle butt as splashes and smears. Splashes means spatter. The killer touched some of the areas that had splashes and smeared such blood. It was smeared by gloves or other clothing. The blood got there from beating Nevill and some was smeared by the killer afterwards. It didn't just hit the weapon it hit the killer who was wielding it.
The police made no effort to document spatter in the kitchen. They didn't care about it. They documented blood on the wall that came from Nevill leaning on the wall to help them trace Nevill's steps. That is also why they tested the blood int he hall and near the foot of the bed in the master bedroom.
The rifle was fired 25 times in quick succession and SC sustained 2 contact gunshot wounds. The rifle was found across her body with her hand resting on the rifle so the fact no GSR was found means diddly squat. Did swabbing take place at SoC? No it took place at the lab after SC's hands had been placed in bags and she had been transported from WHF in a body bag to the path lab. Her nightdress was not tested straight away and there's no evidence to suggest it was handled in a manner conducive to preserving GSR.
It means a great deal to someone who is objective which you are not. The fatal shot to Sheila was a contact shot the first shot was not. The gun had a moderator which brought the area of the weapon that ejected PGSR far from her body. That is why she had no PGSR on her. If she fired 25 shots she would have had PGSR on her hands and body. Moreover if she shot herself, which requires the moderator to not be attached, then the areas that eject PGSR would have been adjacent to her gown. For sure it would have gotten on the bottom of her gown as well as other discharges. You want to pretend otherwise because of your bias. That same bias makes you ridiculously suggest that PGSR vanishes easily from clothing. That is patently false. The most reliable places to look for PGSR is in hair and clothing because it takes much greater effort to remove. They didn't move her body until after protecting her hands to preserve and discharges on her hands. You ignore science to make up poor excuses like that it just dissipates fro a body so you can try to dismiss inconvenient evidence.
These excuses are the hallmarks of Jeremy apologists.
Was the broken stock forensically analysed for biological material or fibres from any glove used? No. It is not known how the stock broke. If it was being swung around like a golf club with the stock used as a club head it may have hit a number of items including NB's bones. Therfore the perp might not have had his/her hand on the stock when it broke. It's all pure speculation.
There is no such thing as analyzing it to find proof of a glove. Blood is biological material. I have already explained many times the way in which a rifle is used to beat someone. You nonetheless spout the same ridiculous theories anyway which show extreme bias in addition to ignorance. The back of the weapon is heavier and the front too slim it would be quite unwieldy trying to use it like a golf club the killer would lose control of it and either it would slip from his hands or worse be taken away because the killer would have a poor grasp while the victim could get a good grasp of the handle or worse even grab the trigger guard securely. Moreover, because the barrel of this weapon is removable and held in place by simply a screw doing such would result in the barrel being damaged and no longer being able to shoot it. Moreover, the cracks to the stock would be running sideways instead of forward to back. The rifle split at the top from compression. There were other cracks running the same direction from compression. Someone was forcing the butt into Nevill and this compressed the stock because one end was against Nevill while the other end was being pushed by the killer. If you put both ends of the butt in a vice and twisted it the breaks would be longways.
Hitting the side of the butt as opposed to backplate against something while it is attached to the metal receiver results in the metal knob inside the stock breaking the side of the stock. Take a 2X4 piece of wood and drive a large fat spike 1 inch deep inside the top of it (not the sides). If swinging it while holding the spike that would simulate the motion of swinging it like a bat or club. Simulate that by simply bending the spike to one side until it snaps the wood. That's the kind of damage that the knob would have cause to the side if it were swung like a club.
The wounds to Nevill were from the back of the butt not the side of the stock. The side is wide and doesn't cause the wounds like he had. You can ignore reality all you like but it just harms your credibility.
You want to ignore how the weapon was actually used because you want to pretend the killer used it in a manner that would not have resulted in any evidence getting on the killer. Such is futile.
When the pathologist was asked about the potential damage to SC's nails from loading and firing the weapon he said he was not qualified to give an opinion. All this business about fingernails is nothing other than sexist comments from uninformed males. One only has to look at the nails/polish adorning the hands of the William sisters on the tennis courts to know that nails are hardy. Not only do Serena and Venus engage in gruelling rallies hitting tennis balls reaching in excess of 100 mph but they undergo extensive training regimes eg lifting weights etc. This would be like me trying to convince males that if they are hit hard in the nuts it doesn't hurt!
So hardy that I have seen women damage them closing minivan doors, typing, while using shovels and baseballs bats...
Vanezis knew little about firearms and how they would be used in beatings and thus was unwilling to venture any guesses. It was wise because he was too ignorant to even recognize that the butt of the weapon was used to strike Nevill's arms. A military doctor could have told him exactly what caused the wounds but he should have had a clue anyway given he recognized the stock was used to bash his head in. He knew Nevill was trying to protect himself from blows and knew eventually the blows got through and bashed his head in. Logic alone suggests that in that case he was trying to protect his face and head with his arm but eventually the butt got through to his head.
Wielding a rifle to beat someone causes the same damage to hands and long nails that will be caused by wielding a long shovel or the like. You have friction from it sliding and vibrating. Strike something that is hard and see the vibrations you get.
You are again desperate to ignore reality so you can pretend that the lack of any damage of any kind to her nails and hands mean nothing. the reality is far different.
Many factors affect high velocity back spatter from gunshot wounds, especially bullet velocity. What is closer to a victim when they sustain a gunshot wound the firearm or the perp? The firearm. The rifle was foresnically analysed. It contained blood "smears" and "splashes" and no evidence of high velocity impact spatter which represents a fine mist. Therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain high impact blood spatter on his/her person.
The location of the wound is the major key to whether back spatter will occur. Greater velocity increases the odds of a bullet exiting and forward spatter being possible. The larger a bullet the greater the chance of hitting an area that will result in spatter that is the main reason bullet size increases the odds. That is also why a larger bullet has a better chance of being more deadly. The bigger the bullet the less precise you have to be in order to hit a vital area.
Splashes are what they were calling spatter. Smears means blood was touched and spread after being deposited. The killer touched some of the areas covered with splashes and smeared it. That is done by hands, gloves if gloves are worn on the hands and can also be done by clothing. The clothes of the shooter will be against part of the rifle as it is being fired.
The blood on the face of the moderator was very small it was indeed high velocity spatter. bashing Nevill with the butt would not get any blood on the face of the moderator. the tiny deposit of blood in the knurled portion of the moderator and forward areas of the also could have been high velocity spatter. It also could have been medium velocity spatter from beating Nevill but it surely got on the killer as well. It didn't fly to the moderator yet not get on the hand and arm of the killer and probably got on the face of the killer as well.
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I had to split my post in 2 because of size limits
There's no evidence tiny blood stains found on JB's clothing were in any way connected to the murders. If one was to foresnically analyse most mens clothing, especially farmers, they are likely to find small blood stains from shaving and minor scrapes during the course of their work.
We don't know if it was blood or not because they tested it too late to be able to figure out what it was. If it had been assessed to be blood he would have been screwed. You don't get tiny flicks from shaving or any other manner except someone wheezing tiny drops of blood. The spots were consistent with high velocity spatter. maybe some were also consistent with medium velocity spatter based on the size. There was a considerable amount of drops. You must have cut your legs shaving at some point cutting a face is no different.
Jeremy claimed it was paint flicks. The only way you get flicks on yourself from a brush is if you waive the brush at yourself or someone or actively flick the bristles. Just ordinary painting will not result in that so police were very skeptical. But the laundering prevented them from being able to figure out if it was paint or blood or something else. He should have been smart enough to trow away any clothing he used but some people are dumb and don't. If he was one of the dumb ones and it was blood he was lucky because police waited too long to take his clothing to be able to find out it was blood. Only Jeremy knows whether it was blood or not.
There's no evidence NB was shot in the bedroom.
Yes there is. The 4 shell casings associated with his upstairs woulds were in the bedroom. The bullet that grazed him was int he bedroom. The location of the casings corresponds to where they would be with the killer firing at Nevill's side of the bed. All 4 wounds were to Nevill's left profile which means the killer was facing his left profile when firing these 4 shots. The angle of two shots precludes Nevill being fully upright and thus is supportive of him sitting on the bed to get up. Trying to pretend he was int he hall when shot or a different room upstairs is futile.
I agree NB was still mobile after sustaining the four GSW's upstairs but as per the pathologist he was in considerable pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and had lost the use of his left arm. The pathologist said NB put up a "spirited defence" this is not the same as entering a "violent struggle". The pathologist makes it clear that had other injuries not supervened the two facial shots would have eventually killed NB.
It makes no difference that he would eventually have bled to death if he was not tended to medically that is true of most gunshot wounds. What matter sit that it would have taken a long time and thus failed to inhibit him much. If not for the broken arm he might have won the fight with Jeremy. There is no question his beating resulted in spatter. The splashes on the stock were described by the experts as getting there from striking someone who was bleeding that is the definition of medium velocity spatter they simply didn't use such wording they said splash instead of spatter.
All of the above have already been answered in points above (repeating yourself doesn't make your points more valid) other than your claims that bedding from the main bedroom was destroyed before being forensically analysed. According to DC Hammersly's trial testimony everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom and forensically analysed. The only bedding that was destroyed and not forensically analysed was that from the twins room. This was tipped out of the window straight onto a trailer and burned in the grounds.
The quilt was burned not taken and analyzed we have the evidence records of what was taken and bedding not taken was mentioned as being destroyed. No examination was made to document spatter in the room or on the bedding. Identify the exhibit number of the quilt. it's not on any exhibit list or referred to in any statement because it wasn't taken nor did they document if any blood was on the table or the various blood drops on the carpet apart from the swatches they cut out. They left bloody carpet there at the scene. They didn't test the blood int he carpet left in the bedroom or even all drops on the 2 samples they took. They tested 5 drops on each sample. For all you know some of the drops they failed to test was Nevill's.
You make very illogical arguments. We know Nevill as shot 4 times upstairs and yet only 1 drip of blood that was tested was his. You seem to be suggesting since no other blood of his was detected this means for sure he was shot in the hall. By your own admission there was no spatter found int he hall just a single static drop. Why is it that there would have to be spatter in the bedroom if he were shot there but there doesn't have to be any spatter in the hall?
The truth is that the nature of his wounds are such that he could have been shot in the bedroom without bleeding on anything in there.
The graze wound would not result in blood, the arm wound would not result in blood his clothing absorbed it. He could have walked in the hall before any blood dripped from his lip or jaw. So a lack of blood int he bedroom would not prove he wasn't shot there anyway. We know the police cleaned up blood left at the scene though and destroyed things left at the scene that could not be cleaned. There could have been blood of Nevill's in the bedroom you can't rule it out.
The casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom proves that is where he was shot.
It is impossible for him to have been shot to hies left profile while on the stairs so we know for sure he wasn't shot there even ignoring the casings. It is time to stop trying to twist the evidence to support what you want to argue and instead viewing the evidence objectively and taking it as it is.
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I had to split my post in 2 because of size limits
I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point.
We don't know if it was blood or not because they tested it too late to be able to figure out what it was. If it had been assessed to be blood he would have been screwed. You don't get tiny flicks from shaving or any other manner except someone wheezing tiny drops of blood. The spots were consistent with high velocity spatter. maybe some were also consistent with medium velocity spatter based on the size. There was a considerable amount of drops. You must have cut your legs shaving at some point cutting a face is no different.
Jeremy claimed it was paint flicks. The only way you get flicks on yourself from a brush is if you waive the brush at yourself or someone or actively flick the bristles. Just ordinary painting will not result in that so police were very skeptical. But the laundering prevented them from being able to figure out if it was paint or blood or something else. He should have been smart enough to trow away any clothing he used but some people are dumb and don't. If he was one of the dumb ones and it was blood he was lucky because police waited too long to take his clothing to be able to find out it was blood. Only Jeremy knows whether it was blood or not.
John Hayward was able to confirm the blood found on JB's jacket was human in origin.
You can read about it here. John Hayward and Dr Lincoln concluded that it was unlikely to be relevant to the murders:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
First time I've heard about these claims of paint flicks. Please provide the documentary evidence to support.
Yes there is. The 4 shell casings associated with his upstairs woulds were in the bedroom. The bullet that grazed him was int he bedroom. The location of the casings corresponds to where they would be with the killer firing at Nevill's side of the bed. All 4 wounds were to Nevill's left profile which means the killer was facing his left profile when firing these 4 shots. The angle of two shots precludes Nevill being fully upright and thus is supportive of him sitting on the bed to get up. Trying to pretend he was int he hall when shot or a different room upstairs is futile.
We have debated this extensively here and I don't propose to do so again. I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
It makes no difference that he would eventually have bled to death if he was not tended to medically that is true of most gunshot wounds. What matter sit that it would have taken a long time and thus failed to inhibit him much. If not for the broken arm he might have won the fight with Jeremy. There is no question his beating resulted in spatter. The splashes on the stock were described by the experts as getting there from striking someone who was bleeding that is the definition of medium velocity spatter they simply didn't use such wording they said splash instead of spatter.
The pathologist stated "..not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened. However I cannot say over what period of time this would have occurred.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
The combined injuries from the facial shots and shoulder causing total incapaciation to NB's left arm left him defenceless.
The pathologist states NB's non-gunshot injuries are consistent with blows from a blunt instrument and it seems likely this was the rifle. However as previously stated the blood on the rifle described as "splashes" and "smears" was of insufficient quantity to permit blood grouping analysis therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain medium velocity spatter on his/her person. There was no evidence of medium velocity spatter in the vicinty of NB.
The quilt was burned not taken and analyzed we have the evidence records of what was taken and bedding not taken was mentioned as being destroyed. No examination was made to document spatter in the room or on the bedding. Identify the exhibit number of the quilt. it's not on any exhibit list or referred to in any statement because it wasn't taken nor did they document if any blood was on the table or the various blood drops on the carpet apart from the swatches they cut out. They left bloody carpet there at the scene. They didn't test the blood int he carpet left in the bedroom or even all drops on the 2 samples they took. They tested 5 drops on each sample. For all you know some of the drops they failed to test was Nevill's.
According to DC Hammersley's trial testimony anything of evidential value was removed from the main bed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223;image
The blood stained capet samples and blue socks taken from the main bedroom and tested were said to originate from June based on her A blood grouping and the nature of her injuries.
The blood stained carpet fibres taken from the landing and tested were inconclusive,
You make very illogical arguments. We know Nevill as shot 4 times upstairs and yet only 1 drip of blood that was tested was his. You seem to be suggesting since no other blood of his was detected this means for sure he was shot in the hall. By your own admission there was no spatter found int he hall just a single static drop. Why is it that there would have to be spatter in the bedroom if he were shot there but there doesn't have to be any spatter in the hall?
The truth is that the nature of his wounds are such that he could have been shot in the bedroom without bleeding on anything in there.
The graze wound would not result in blood, the arm wound would not result in blood his clothing absorbed it. He could have walked in the hall before any blood dripped from his lip or jaw. So a lack of blood int he bedroom would not prove he wasn't shot there anyway. We know the police cleaned up blood left at the scene though and destroyed things left at the scene that could not be cleaned. There could have been blood of Nevill's in the bedroom you can't rule it out.
The casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being found in the bedroom proves that is where he was shot.
It is impossible for him to have been shot to hies left profile while on the stairs so we know for sure he wasn't shot there even ignoring the casings. It is time to stop trying to twist the evidence to support what you want to argue and instead viewing the evidence objectively and taking it as it is.
I've only ever claimed NB was shot on the landing and in the kitchen. I don't know where you get the hall from? Maybe in the US you refer to the corridor upstairs as a hall. In the UK we refer to the corridor upstairs as a landing and corridor downstairs as a hall. Not always a corridor but the area the main rooms lead off of.
There's no evidence of any of NB's blood in the bedroom. I've previously pointed out that doesn't mean there wasn't any. The blood on the landing was inconclusive and blood on the stairs was not tested. Blood on wallpater by the kitchen/hall entrance was shown to originate from NB based on his O blood grouping. Blood drips on the kitchen floor were not tested but it seems likely they originated from NB.
The facial shots NB sustained upstairs produced substantial external blood loss as the regions injured contained a rich blood supply. There's no evidence of his blood in the main bedroom which might be expected from these wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
The other points you raise re bullet casings etc are here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
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I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point.
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Blimey I've only just noticed Scipio's part one @)(++(*
I've never had to split any posts due to size limits ?8)@)-)
This is just silly having long rambling threads.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7135.msg320296#msg320296
There's clearly nothing "nutshell" about the case.
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... and we keep goin' round and round and round in... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9VoLCO-d6U)
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I would be grateful if you could try and keep your posts brief and to the point.
John Hayward was able to confirm the blood found on JB's jacket was human in origin.
You can read about it here. John Hayward and Dr Lincoln concluded that it was unlikely to be relevant to the murders:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
First time I've heard about these claims of paint flicks. Please provide the documentary evidence to support.
Lincoln only referred to evidence where blood was found. There was blood found on a jacket and on a robe. There was an additional jacket police took which had small red dots on it. Jeremy claimed the marks were paint. The lab never figured out what the marks were. Since the dots didn't test positive for blood there was no reason for Lincoln to discuss it.
We have debated this extensively here and I don't propose to do so again. I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
Your idea of debating is you ignoring reality and just repeating the same disproved nonsense like a broken record. Your claims were disproved but you refuse to face it and admit it as if your refusal to admit it prevents the refutation from occurring.
You start off that thread with these pathetic fallacies:
"There's no evidence of NB's blood in the main bedroom or casings his side of the bedroom other than the two attributable to SC."
You make 3 FALSE suggestions:
1) that casings would be on Nevill's side of the room if Nevill had been shot while sitting in bed or getting out of bed
2) that Nevill's blood would have to be in the bedroom if he had been shot there
3) that all the blood in the bedroom was tested and none of it was Nevill's
You take these 3 falsehoods and then insist they establish Nevill was not shot in the bedroom.
The 4 casings associated with Nevill's shots were in the bedroom but not on Nevill's side. There is good reason for them not being on Nevill's side, if someone were at the foot of the bed aiming at Nevill as he sat on the bed to get up the casings would eject to the right of Nevill which means either on top of June's side of the bed or on the floor right next to June's side of the bed. This was explained to you many times but you ignore it because you ignore anything that detracts from your agenda.
The theory you proposed is patently absurd as was explained to you. You ignored the problems with your claims and stood by them. Standing by refuted claims doesn't help salvage them.
"My theory is that the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June. As NB approached the main bedroom he was shot twice on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance to the bedroom in the lip and jaw. Casings 3 and 4 are attributable to these shots. The perp was stood at the entrance with the barrel extending onto the landing but the ejection port just inside the door."
A) it is not possible to shoot someone from inside the room while they are on the stairs. The wall of the bedroom prevents shooting someone on the stairs unless you shoot through the wall. The weapon and thus ejection port has to be in the hall to be able to aim the rifle at someone coming up the stairs. The casings would thus be in the hall.
B) Nevill was not shot in his jaw and lip while facing his killer. Both shots were fired with the killer to Nevill's left. The killer would have to be by Sheila's door as Nevill got to the top step in order to target Nevill's left profile and even then it might not be possible at the exact angle of the shots he suffered. The casings would fly down the stairs. You never deal with these problems you just maintain the same erroneous claims.
"NB then turned and fled down the stairs with the perp behind him. The perp then shot NB in the shoulder and elbow on the main staircase. Casings 13 and 14 are attributable to these shots. The perp was parallel with the main bedroom door and the ejection port ejected cartridge 13 onto the transition plate of the main bedroom door. The ejection port ejected cartridge 14 to a similar location but it rolled down the stairs and landed a little way down the landing."
A) Shooting at Nevill's back would result in the casings ejecting down the stairs and right. Your suggestion that the casings would eject into the bedroom is absurd. If the gun is pointed at someone on the stairs the ejection port is the opposite side of the bedroom door. It ejects forward and right. You are suggesting it ejects directly to the left.
B) Shooting at Nevill's back would result in bullets hitting his back and traveling towards his front. The trajectory of his arm wound was hitting the outside side of his arm and traveling down/TOWARDS his chest. If the trajectory had been inside the back of arm and towards the front of his arm it would be one thing but that is not what happened. The shooter was still facing Nevill's left side not his back! Similarly the trajectory of the round that grazed Nevill was fired while the shooter was facing Nevill's side. The shooter was looking at Nevill's back as he ran down the stairs and grazed the side of his arm and his chest? Nevill was shot while the killer was facing his left profile. At he walked down the stairs his left profile was to the wall. The only way the killer could shoot him would be shooting through the wall. The wall had no holes it was not shot through. At the end of the day your suggestions are as stupid as any suggestion Mike has made. Moreover, if the graze wound happened while Nevill as on the stairs the bullet that grazed him would have been found on the stairs or in the wall along the stairs. It wasn't, it was found in the bedroom.
Your theory was made up without regard to the evidence. You don't want to debate it because your claims were debunked. You don't care that they were debunked you just want to happily live in denial.
The pathologist stated "..not immediately life threatening although could well have been if other injuries had not supervened. However I cannot say over what period of time this would have occurred.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
The combined injuries from the facial shots and shoulder causing total incapaciation to NB's left arm left him defenceless.
The pathologist states NB's non-gunshot injuries are consistent with blows from a blunt instrument and it seems likely this was the rifle. However as previously stated the blood on the rifle described as "splashes" and "smears" was of insufficient quantity to permit blood grouping analysis therefore it does not follow that the perp would sustain medium velocity spatter on his/her person. There was no evidence of medium velocity spatter in the vicinty of NB.
Fact: the experts including pathologist said the splashes were consistent with blood being ejected from a victim onto the weapon as the weapon struck the victim. That is back spatter being described. You ridiculously ignore such to try to pretend the killer would not have been hit by back spatter so you can pretend the absence of back spatter on Sheila is not significant.
Fact: There was no attempt by police to document spatter on the objects in the kitchen. Your claim they did such and found no blood is false. You use this false proposition to try to ignore reality and pretend there was no backspatter so you can pretend the killer would have no blood so you can then pretend that Sheila did it.
Fact: A smear means the killer TOUCHED the blood that splashed onto the weapon thereby SPREADING it. By definition the killer came in contact with such blood and it would be on the killer's body and/or clothing- whatever part of the killer smeared the blood would have such blood on it. You ignore this because it means the killer would have had blood evidence and Sheila lacked such.
Fact: The only wound that limited Nevill's ability to fight back was his damaged arm. How much it limited him we can't say for sure people with broken parts still have some ability to move them. Clearly he could not use it anywhere near as good if it had not been injured. Time and again you ABSURDLY suggest Nevill passed out and was beaten while he was unconscious. The scene in the kitchen proves there was a struggle. Nevill didn't pass out on his own he was beaten till he was unconscious. The ONLY reason Nevill was beaten till he was unconscious was so that the killer could reload the weapon. The killer needed two hands to reload the magazine and Nevill could have taken the weapon as it sat. Nevill's arms were struck a dozen times or more. Several times you absurdly suggested Sheila beat his arms while he was unconscious. These suggestions just help to betray how you are guided solely by bias and just making up nonsense to try to pretend Sheila did it. If Nevill passed out the killer would simply have reloaded then shot him not beat his body as he was passed out, certainly not beat his harms tearing his watch off.
That Nevill would eventually have bled to death in no way suggests he passed out upon reaching the kitchen precluding a struggle. You make up such things out of desperation and it doesn';t help your image at all when you do such.
According to DC Hammersley's trial testimony anything of evidential value was removed from the main bed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223;image
The blood stained capet samples and blue socks taken from the main bedroom and tested were said to originate from June based on her A blood grouping and the nature of her injuries.
The blood stained carpet fibres taken from the landing and tested were inconclusive,
He said he took what he thought was important. He didn't think the quilt was important so didn't take it. There are no records that reflect the quilt was collected let alone any that shot it being sent to the lab. Since it was not examined by the lab you have no basis to say it definitely had no blood. We don't know what evidence may have been present on it because it was never examined.
June had injuries that resulted in her dripping a great deal of blood as she moved around. She also had been lying in bed when shot and thus her bleeding wound came into direct contact with the bed. In contrast none of Nevill's wounds caused him to be dripping blood extensively and none of his wounds came into direct contact with the bed because he was not lying down when shot. You want to pretend that Nevill would have to have bled int he bedroom though that is not the case at all. In the meantime you ignore that they didn't test all the blood drops from the carpet they cut out some of those drops they did not test could have been from Nevill. Some of the carpet int he bedroom that they left behind had blood as well thus it wa snot tested and could have been Nevill's. Since Nevill only dripped a single drop her or there as he was moving about that means if he dropped only a very small number of drops int he bedroom they would need to test them all to find them.
The casings associated with the 4 shots as well as the billet that grazed Nevill were all inside the bedroom and the only way that is possible is if he were shot in there or someone moved them from a different room and planted them. You have no evidence of anyone moving them and planting them.
I've only ever claimed NB was shot on the landing and in the kitchen. I don't know where you get the hall from? Maybe in the US you refer to the corridor upstairs as a hall. In the UK we refer to the corridor upstairs as a landing and corridor downstairs as a hall. Not always a corridor but the area the main rooms lead off of.
Landings are those portions of hallways directly adjacent to stairs. Your claims of him being shot on a landing or on the stairs are impossible for the reasons stated above. You never address the problems I raised you just maintain the same refuted claims in the ultimate effort to live in denial.
There's no evidence of any of NB's blood in the bedroom. I've previously pointed out that doesn't mean there wasn't any. The blood on the landing was inconclusive and blood on the stairs was not tested. Blood on wallpater by the kitchen/hall entrance was shown to originate from NB based on his O blood grouping. Blood drips on the kitchen floor were not tested but it seems likely they originated from NB.
On the contrary you have gone to great lengths to say they tested all the blood int he bedroom and none was Nevill's this is the first time you are conceding his blood may have been there but wasn't discovered. There is no doubt Nevill went from the bedroom down to the kitchen after being shot. He walked into the hall towards Sheila's room but then decided to go down the stairs to the kitchen instead of going into her room. Whether it was to chase Jeremy or he was being chased is not known for sure but more likely is that he was pursuing Jeremy because Jeremy would have been beating him before he got into the kitchen the struggle would have been on the stairs and halls instead. More likely is he pursued Jeremy and prevented him from reloading.
The blood in the kitchen had to be Nevill's it was near his body and in such quantity that where else could it come from? The killer didn't get that much blood on them from another victim and transfer it to the kitchen. That is why they didn't even need to test it the circumstances showed quite clearly who it belonged to. The same is true of the blood pool that was near Sheila's body and blood pool near June.
The facial shots NB sustained upstairs produced substantial external blood loss as the regions injured contained a rich blood supply. There's no evidence of his blood in the main bedroom which might be expected from these wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=726
There is no evidence that suggests his lip wound and jaw wound caused significant external blood loss. Evidence they cause significant external blood loss would be evidence he dripped extensive amounts of blood everywhere he walked. He dripped very little blood in the hallways and even kitchen. The main blood stain of his outside the kitchen was caused by his bloody shoulder area of his pajamas hitting the side of the wall. Jaw wounds of that nature result more internal bleeding than external. This is a perfect example of you ignoring the evidence and making up what you wish instead of following the evidence where it leads. If he leaked a lot of blood in the halls and down the stairs then you can say evidence established he was bleeding extensively from his lip/jaw wounds. But that is not the case at all.
The other points you raise re bullet casings etc are here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
In that thread I thoroughly refuted your claims. I posted an illustration of where the casings would land while shooting at Nevill on his side of the bed. also I discussed how it would not be possible to shoot Nevill from the bedroom if he were on the stairs. You never addressed any of these problems.
You recognize that Sheila shooting both parents in the bedroom precludes Jeremey's claim of receiving a phone call and are desperate to pretend it didn't happen.
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I stand by my claims in this thread that the four gunshot wounds NB sustained upstairs happened on the landing.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
Had that been the case Holly the bullet casings would not have been found in the bedroom.
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Had that been the case Holly the bullet casings would not have been found in the bedroom.
Actually I made a mistake in post above. I should have said twice on the landing and twice on the stairs.
They were not all in the bedroom. One was on the transition strip and another on the landing.
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Actually I made a mistake in post above. I should have said twice on the landing and twice on the stairs.
They were not all in the bedroom. One was on the transition strip and another on the landing.
Someone firing at someone on the stairs would result in the ejection port being to the right towards Sheila's room not near the master bedroom. The shot on the transition strip was from shooting June.
The casings stuck in the corner on the landing was transferred from the kitchen.
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Someone firing at someone on the stairs would result in the ejection port being to the right towards Sheila's room not near the master bedroom. The shot on the transition strip was from shooting June.
The casings stuck in the corner on the landing was transferred from the kitchen.
We've covered this previously Scipio. You have your views and I have mine. My scenario is entirely plausible in terms of trajectory of shots, blood staining and and ejection port/casings.
My scenario does not rely upon the unlikely theory of an officer carrying a spent casing under his boot from the kitchen to the landing and two casings morping into an A and a B with the same exhibit number with the exhibit bag split open and resealed!
I've attached my diagram again for you to hone your spatial reasoning skills on 8(>(( Don't even go there! I've already had intellectual property rights slapped on it ?>)()<
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We've covered this previously Scipio. You have your views and I have mine. My scenario is entirely plausible in terms of trajectory of shots, blood staining and and ejection port/casings.
My scenario does not rely upon the unlikely theory of an officer carrying a spent casing under his boot from the kitchen to the landing and two casings morping into an A and a B with the same exhibit number with the exhibit bag split open and resealed!
I've attached my diagram again for you to hone your spatial reasoning skills on 8(>(( Don't even go there! I've already had intellectual property rights slapped on it ?>)()<
Your diagram just confirms what I said about you ignoring the evidence and instead making up things without regard to the evidence to make up things to pretend Nevill was shot outside the bedroom. I already explained to you NUMEROUS times what is wrong with your claims.
First and foremost in your diagram Nevill's RIGHT side is facing the master bedroom as he walks up the stairs. You feature the shooter firing from the bedroom at his right side. Nevill was shot in his left side not right. The bullet hit his left side of his jaw and traveled to the right. The bullet that hit his lip hit the left side and traveled to the right. Many times I have told you that in order for Nevill to be shot while walking up the stairs the shooter would have to be to his left not his right which means right by Sheila's door. The railing would obscure the shot and I am not positive the trajectory even could be achieved perfectly from there but if you are going to speculate that Nevill was shot while walking up the stairs that is the only location even remotely plausible where the killer could fire from. The casings in that event would go down the stairs. This alone refutes your speculation completely. It is impossible for Nevill to have been shot in the left side from the master bedroom while walking up the stairs.
I could stop here but if he had been shot from the right side instead of left there still would be problems with your claims. There still would be problems targeting someone on the stairs from the bedroom because of the angle. Moreover, you want to pretend the casings simply dropped out of the weapon onto the floor near the door. That's not what would happen. If the gun were inside the room as far as you pretend they would bounce off the wall into the corner near the chair. If the gun were protruding or angled sufficiently they would eject into the hall towards Sheila's door. But there is no need to even deal with this since it is not possible to target the left side of someone walking up the stairs from the master bedroom.
If you still can't get it without seeing an illustration then here:
(http://s23.postimg.org/nztzw583f/walkingupstairs.jpg)
The casing associated with these 2 shots were found in the master bedroom in the location where they would be expected if the killer were at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill's left side as he sat on the bed trying to get up/was getting up.
As for the graze wound, it is impossible for that to have been delivered while he was walking up or down the stairs. Someone who ran into the hall as Nevill was going down the stairs would see his back. The graze wound was fired to Nevill's left side. The killer was facing Nevill's left side when the shot was fired. The casing associated with such shot was found in the bedroom as was the bullet that grazed him. The wall was to Nevill's left side as he was walking down the stairs so the only way the killer could shoot him on the stairs would be through the wall. The same holds true for the shot to his shoulder. It was to his left side. His left shoulder would be obscured by the wall.
Someone shooting from the hall as he is walking down the stairs would target Nevill from behind not from the side. Moreover, the casings would shoot down the right side of the stairs.
Even if he got the the mid landing and began to turn to go down the rest of the stairs his right ride not his left would be exposed. This image illustrates such quite clearly:
(http://s21.postimg.org/etpe934dj/walkingdownstairs.jpg)
Your theory holds no water at all. All 4 casings were found in the bedroom where they would be expected to be if Nevill had been shot while on his side of the bed. The bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom not the hall. The trajectory of the shots is possible to achieve with Nevill on his side of the room but impossible to achieve while he was on the stairs and the killer where you claim.
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Your diagram just confirms what I said about you ignoring the evidence and instead making up things without regard to the evidence to make up things to pretend Nevill was shot outside the bedroom. I already explained to you NUMEROUS times what is wrong with your claims.
First and foremost in your diagram Nevill's RIGHT side is facing the master bedroom as he walks up the stairs. You feature the shooter firing from the bedroom at his right side. Nevill was shot in his left side not right. The bullet hit his left side of his jaw and traveled to the right. The bullet that hit his lip hit the left side and traveled to the right. Many times I have told you that in order for Nevill to be shot while walking up the stairs the shooter would have to be to his left not his right which means right by Sheila's door. The railing would obscure the shot and I am not positive the trajectory even could be achieved perfectly from there but if you are going to speculate that Nevill was shot while walking up the stairs that is the only location even remotely plausible where the killer could fire from. The casings in that event would go down the stairs. This alone refutes your speculation completely. It is impossible for Nevill to have been shot in the left side from the master bedroom while walking up the stairs.
I could stop here but if he had been shot from the right side instead of left there still would be problems with your claims. There still would be problems targeting someone on the stairs from the bedroom because of the angle. Moreover, you want to pretend the casings simply dropped out of the weapon onto the floor near the door. That's not what would happen. If the gun were inside the room as far as you pretend they would bounce off the wall into the corner near the chair. If the gun were protruding or angled sufficiently they would eject into the hall towards Sheila's door. But there is no need to even deal with this since it is not possible to target the left side of someone walking up the stairs from the master bedroom.
If you still can't get it without seeing an illustration then here:
(http://s23.postimg.org/nztzw583f/walkingupstairs.jpg)
The casing associated with these 2 shots were found in the master bedroom in the location where they would be expected if the killer were at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill's left side as he sat on the bed trying to get up/was getting up.
As for the graze wound, it is impossible for that to have been delivered while he was walking up or down the stairs. Someone who ran into the hall as Nevill was going down the stairs would see his back. The graze wound was fired to Nevill's left side. The killer was facing Nevill's left side when the shot was fired. The casing associated with such shot was found in the bedroom as was the bullet that grazed him. The wall was to Nevill's left side as he was walking down the stairs so the only way the killer could shoot him on the stairs would be through the wall. The same holds true for the shot to his shoulder. It was to his left side. His left shoulder would be obscured by the wall.
Someone shooting from the hall as he is walking down the stairs would target Nevill from behind not from the side. Moreover, the casings would shoot down the right side of the stairs.
Even if he got the the mid landing and began to turn to go down the rest of the stairs his right ride not his left would be exposed. This image illustrates such quite clearly:
(http://s21.postimg.org/etpe934dj/walkingdownstairs.jpg)
Your theory holds no water at all. All 4 casings were found in the bedroom where they would be expected to be if Nevill had been shot while on his side of the bed. The bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom not the hall. The trajectory of the shots is possible to achieve with Nevill on his side of the room but impossible to achieve while he was on the stairs and the killer where you claim.
Thank you for going to so much trouble but I'm sticking with my copyrighted diagrams ?>)()<
NB's facial shots were not to the left or right they were face on. It's entirely feasible the perp was stood in the entrance of the main bedroom and the ejection port ejected the casings around the right angle of the walls with NB on the stairs preceding the entrance to the main bedroom. (Two facial shots)
It's then entirely feasible NB turned and was facing down the stairs with the perp behind and the ejection port ejejcted casings onto the transition strip of the main bedroom and against the landing wall. (Shoulder and elbow shot).
One needs to be able to rotate images in the minds eye!
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Thank you for going to so much trouble but I'm sticking with my copyrighted diagrams ?>)()<
NB's facial shots were not to the left or right they were face on. It's entirely feasible the perp was stood in the entrance of the main bedroom and the ejection port ejected the casings around the right angle of the walls with NB on the stairs preceding the entrance to the main bedroom. (Two facial shots)
It's then entirely feasible NB turned and was facing down the stairs with the perp behind and the ejection port ejejcted casings onto the transition strip of the main bedroom and against the landing wall. (Shoulder and elbow shot).
One needs to be able to rotate images in the minds eye!
Your claims about the casings are not in the least bit feasible. You want to pretend that casings went opposite of where they actually would to keep your theory alive but it is pointless.
Your claims about his wounds are completely wrong. He was not shot in the lip with the killer firing directly at his face. The shots angled from left to right. An oblique wound to the lip means it did not hit the lip from forward but rather from the side. The shot angled left to right with the bullet lodging. The only way that trajectory can be achieved is with the killer being to Nevill's left side not directly in front.
The trajectory of the bullet that entered Nevill's jaw likewise was from left to right. It entered at the angle of his mandible. This is what the angle of the mandible is another word for the side of the mandible.
This diagram shows the trajectories
(http://s22.postimg.org/xbwrym39t/nevillgswdiagram.jpg)
If he had been shot from the front instead of the left profile the bullet wound would have been to the front of his jaw instead of side. The bullet would have gone in the front and traveled to the back of his neck not have gone across he neck left to right.
You ignore the evidence so you can make things up. This renders your speculations completely wrong.
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Your claims about the casings are not in the least bit feasible. You want to pretend that casings went opposite of where they actually would to keep your theory alive but it is pointless.
Your claims about his wounds are completely wrong. He was not shot in the lip with the killer firing directly at his face. The shots angled from left to right. An oblique wound to the lip means it did not hit the lip from forward but rather from the side. The shot angled left to right with the bullet lodging. The only way that trajectory can be achieved is with the killer being to Nevill's left side not directly in front.
The trajectory of the bullet that entered Nevill's jaw likewise was from left to right. It entered at the angle of his mandible. This is what the angle of the mandible is another word for the side of the mandible.
This diagram shows the trajectories
(http://s22.postimg.org/xbwrym39t/nevillgswdiagram.jpg)
If he had been shot from the front instead of the left profile the bullet wound would have been to the front of his jaw instead of side. The bullet would have gone in the front and traveled to the back of his neck not have gone across he neck left to right.
You ignore the evidence so you can make things up. This renders your speculations completely wrong.
You need to understand directional terms in terms of human anatomy. Left and right does not mean the two gunshot wounds NB sustained entered via the left side of his face. It means to the left side of his face ie under his left eye and left nostril as opposed to under his right eye and right nostril. See slides 17 and 19 - 21 incl.:
http://www.slideshare.net/linoby/introduction-to-human-anatomy
From Dr V's autopsy:
5. Oblique entry wound on the left side of the lower lip measuring 5/16".
6. Entry wound measuring in 5/16", situated on the left lower jaw half way between the point of the chin and the angle of the jaw. The tracks of the above two wounds were downwards. The bullet from wound 5 was found in cervical vertabra. Cross fractures and disruptive injuries were found in the left side of the jaw and nearby teeth associated with these bullets. In addition there was aslo associated soft tissue injury to laryngeal structures on the left side as well as the left sulmandibular gland.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=86fk5opg57kscmj98ec7uet285&action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676
Any lingering doubts you may have can be clarified by Dr V's autopsy report above. You can trace (and no I'm not doing it for you) with your finger your lower left jaw from the angle of your jaw to the point of your chin. Mid point is the point NB sustained one of the gunshot wounds. If the bullet entered sideways it would not have been as serious as it was. It was serious as it was face on and caused damage to the areas highlighted in bold above. Diagrams as follows:
Scipio sometimes I think you just like arguing with me for the hell of it. I'm not going round in circles with you on this. If you want to belive the facial shots entered sideways then that's fine by my me.
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Laryngeal structures (Larynx)
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Sulmandibular gland (salivary glands)
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Cervical Vertabrae
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We've covered this previously Scipio. You have your views and I have mine. My scenario is entirely plausible in terms of trajectory of shots, blood staining and and ejection port/casings.
My scenario does not rely upon the unlikely theory of an officer carrying a spent casing under his boot from the kitchen to the landing and two casings morping into an A and a B with the same exhibit number with the exhibit bag split open and resealed!
I've attached my diagram again for you to hone your spatial reasoning skills on 8(>(( Don't even go there! I've already had intellectual property rights slapped on it ?>)()<
There were only three casings found in the kitchen. Have you dismissed the theory that the fourth could have been stovepipe-jammed and JB only released it when he reached the top of the stairs?
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You need to understand directional terms in terms of human anatomy. Left and right does not mean the two gunshot wounds NB sustained entered via the left side of his face. It means to the left side of his face ie under his left eye and left nostril as opposed to under his right eye and right nostril. See slides 17 and 19 - 21 incl.:
http://www.slideshare.net/linoby/introduction-to-human-anatomy
From Dr V's autopsy:
5. Oblique entry wound on the left side of the lower lip measuring 5/16".
6. Entry wound measuring in 5/16", situated on the left lower jaw half way between the point of the chin and the angle of the jaw. The tracks of the above two wounds were downwards. The bullet from wound 5 was found in cervical vertabra. Cross fractures and disruptive injuries were found in the left side of the jaw and nearby teeth associated with these bullets. In addition there was aslo associated soft tissue injury to laryngeal structures on the left side as well as the left sulmandibular gland.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=86fk5opg57kscmj98ec7uet285&action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676
Any lingering doubts you may have can be clarified by Dr V's autopsy report above. You can trace (and no I'm not doing it for you) with your finger your lower left jaw from the angle of your jaw to the point of your chin. Mid point is the point NB sustained one of the gunshot wounds. If the bullet entered sideways it would not have been as serious as it was. It was serious as it was face on and caused damage to the areas highlighted in bold above. Diagrams as follows:
Scipio sometimes I think you just like arguing with me for the hell of it. I'm not going round in circles with you on this. If you want to belive the facial shots entered sideways then that's fine by my me.
I argue with you because you are wrong I care about accuracy while you do not. You change facts to suit what you want to pretend.
Fact: Someone walking up the stairs at WHF would have the right side of their body facing the master bedroom.
Fact: It is impossible for someone inside the master bedroom at WHF to target the left side of someone who is on the stairs
Fact: The ejection port is on the right side of the weapon not the left
These simply facts render your claims absurd and impossible.
Vanezis describes where the entry wounds were and where the bullets went including where they were removed from. I traced the wounds on such basis from entry wound to where the bullets were found.
The trajectory was left to right. Your claim he simply meant the wounds were under the left side of his eye moving front to back are patently wrong. You flipped things on their head which is what you always do. The first 2 drawings show the wounds most accurately. You ignore those and pretend the last is the most accurate and that the shots came from the front though the path the bullets took was left to right. If Nevill's head were a globe and the back of his head is what side we are looking at (so that the left side of his head is also to our left) then the killer would have been Northwest. In analog clock terms the killer was between 9:30 and 10:30.
The graze wound was fired with the killer around 9 o'clock aka due West. The shoulder wound was fired 8-9 o'clock aka Southwest. The common denominator is all were fired from the west (left). None of the shots were fired from due North or due south. None were fired with the killer facing Nevill head on.
If the shot in the jaw simply traveled from the jaw front to back and down then it would have exited through his chin. The red dot is the jaw wound and line shows it's path to reach the vertebra. It traveled left to right passing through the throat and into the vertebra.
He said the lip wound was oblique that means angled. It was angled left to right not a head on shot. The bullet went left to right into the throat and then vertebra. A straight shot into the left tip of the lip would not be oblique and wound not result in the bullet going into the throat.
While I care about facts you care about your agenda. Your agenda causes you to completely ignore that the shell casing on the landing was from the kitchen. You pretend it was from shooting Nevill on the steps though there is no way to achieve any of the angles in which Nevill was shot with him being on the stairs indeed all one need know is that Nevill's injuries were to the left side and the bedroom was to his right side in order to known it is not possible.
Even if Nevill's wounds had been straight on as you claim that would require a killer to be in the hall facing the stairs in order to be able to shoot his left side from straight on, such cannot be accomplished from inside the bedroom. The shell casing though in that instance would shoot to the right down the bottom of the stairs not to the left inside the bedroom or to the left corner of the landing.
Your agenda causes you to pretend it is possible to shoot the left side of someone from a room facing the right of the target. Your agenda causes you to pretend that shells ejected from the left side of the weapon instead of right so you can pretend that casing on the steps got there from shooting at Nevill as he was on the stairs and to pretend casings in the bedroom got there from shooting at him as he was on the stairs. Your bias causes you to totally ignore the fact that the bullet that grazed Nevill was in the bedroom.
You bias causes you to say there would have to be a substantial amount of blood in the bedroom if he had been shot there and pretending that no blood of his was there for sure though they failed to test most of the blood in the bedroom so his blood may have been there, but you have no problem with there being no blood found on the steps and say he was shot there despite no blood. You are wildly inconsistent and driven by an agenda as opposed to facing evidence and following the evidence where it leads.
Because you refuse to follow the evidence where it leads and distort it to suit your agenda that is why I argue with you.
Your claim that Nevill's killer was directly in front of him and shot him head on in the lip and jaw is false. Since it is false that is why I argue with you. His killer was to his left. His killer was forward and to his left and that is how the bullet entered his left lip at an oblique angle instead of straight then traveled left to right to his neck instead of the bullet going straight and exited the left side of his chin/neck.
The bullet to his jaw didn't go straight through his chin like it would have if he was shot as you claim, it went left to right going through his throat. The entrance wounds of both of these shot were to the left of his throat and vertebra and yet they traveled to his throat and vertebra. Only a left to right trajectory enables them to enter where they did and yet end up where they did.
A three dimensional drawing of the trajectories would show them going down and to the left. That places the killer "Northwest".
A perfect example of your inconsistency is that you tell us that the killer fired head on at Nevill and yet the scenario you posited doesn't feature the killer head on. In your scenario of the shooter in the bedroom you have the killer "Northeast" of Nevill as he is on the stairs. That would result in the shots coming to Nevill's right side though not left. Surely you know the difference between left and right. So this renders your claims impossible. That is why I refute your claims- because they are impossible and clearly wrong.
At the end of the day the evidence conclusively establishes the killer was Nevill's Northwest when firing the lip and jaw shots yet you position the killer to Nevill's Northeast. You do so not because the evidence supports this- it in fact refutes such. You do it because you decided to make up a scenario to make it seem plausible that Sheila did the shootings and you choose to ignore that the evidence refutes your scenario and decided to simply pretend the evidence supports it.
If you actually believed that the evidence suggests Nevill was shot in the face while on the stairs then you would be arguing he was shot from near Sheila's bedroom door. That is the only place where Nevill could be shot from the left while walking up the stairs. Your proposed location for the killer is the yellow square which has the killer to Nevill's right. Inspite of your extreme bias you should comprehend that it is impossible to target Nevill's left side from such location it can only be targeted from the doorway of Sheila's bedroom.
(http://s22.postimg.org/73bcmylo1/whfupperlevel.jpg)
Instead of making up your narrative of what happened based on the evidence you decided to ignore it and siply make up a narrative that would enable Nevill to phone Jeremy even though the evidence refutes it and to simply pretend the evidence supports it.
The location of the casings and the location of the bullet that grazed Nevill establish he was shot in the master bedroom by a shooter located in the master bedroom. This prevents Nevill from being able to call Jeremy and you want to pretend Jeremy received such a call and is innocent so refuse to accept the evidence and simply make up things to pretend what we know happened didn't.
I don't like running with impossible bogus pretense that is why I challenge you.
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Cervical Vertabrae
Note how the vertebra and voincebox are in the center. Both entrance wounds were to the left of these structures. The only way for a bullet to travel from the entrance wound to these structures is if the lpath was not straight back but rather a left to right motion.
[ moderated ]
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I argue with you because you are wrong I care about accuracy while you do not. You change facts to suit what you want to pretend.
Fact: Someone walking up the stairs at WHF would have the right side of their body facing the master bedroom.
Fact: It is impossible for someone inside the master bedroom at WHF to target the left side of someone who is on the stairs
Fact: The ejection port is on the right side of the weapon not the left
These simply facts render your claims absurd and impossible.
I don't agree with this.
Neville comes up the stairs, receives the first two shots to the jaw, then retreats back down the stairs first by revolving his body to the other direction. During this scenario Neville exposes all necessary parts of his body for the killer to shoot him in the locations he was shot at.
Anschutz 525 Ejects the cases forward, The absence of shell casings and blood on nevills side of the bed combined with the fact the shells are close to the door and hall, is perfectly consistent with Holly's scenario.
https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s (https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s)
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I don't agree with this.
Neville comes up the stairs, receives the first two shots to the jaw, then retreats back down the stairs first by revolving his body to the other direction. During this scenario Neville exposes all necessary parts of his body for the killer to shoot him in the locations he was shot at.
Anschutz 525 Ejects the cases forward, The absence of shell casings and blood on nevills side of the bed combined with the fact the shells are close to the door and hall, is perfectly consistent with Holly's scenario.
https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s (https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s)
David, did you nick Caro's research?
Massive tut, if you did. And another huge tut if you told Nelly about it.
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Nelly, Mike and lookout = Wilson, Keppel and Betty.
Sad face, thumbs down, tears, shakey head.
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Nelly is ngb.
I hope you didn't steal anything. Sorry that you got picked on.
Good luck with your discovery.
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I don't agree with this.
Neville comes up the stairs, receives the first two shots to the jaw, then retreats back down the stairs first by revolving his body to the other direction. During this scenario Neville exposes all necessary parts of his body for the killer to shoot him in the locations he was shot at.
Anschutz 525 Ejects the cases forward, The absence of shell casings and blood on nevills side of the bed combined with the fact the shells are close to the door and hall, is perfectly consistent with Holly's scenario.
https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s (https://youtu.be/Bgz0lqGVouo?t=20s)
Both of you are being extremely hypocritical and making pathetic arguments.
Both of you say there was no blood in the bedroom from Nevill so he had to have been shot on the stairs. They didn't test most of the blood in the bedroom so you have no idea if there was any blood or not. His blood was not found on the stairs though. How come he could be shot on the stairs and not bleed profusely on the step carpeting but it is impossible for him to be shot in the bedroom without bleeding profusely on the floor? This is a perfect example of how poorly reasoned your claims are. They are poorly reasoned because you are just making up excuses to try to pretend Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom because Nevill being shot in the bedroom ends the farce you two try to present of Jeremy being innocent. You are stuck making up any BS you can for the sake of pretense. That results in wild inconsistency and claims that fail to make any sense. If he was shot in the bedroom he would have left large amounts of blood there but if shot on the stairs he would not. How stupid do you think people are? This takes care of the blood nonsense.
Next comes the wound trajectories. Do you and Holly understand the difference between left and right? Someone walking up the stairs has their left side to Sheila's room and their right side to the master bedroom. Someone shooting from the master bedroom would be firing the bullets from the person's right side. It is patently absurd to claim that someone firing from the right side of the victim would be able to shoot the victim's left side. The main reason why Holly is so desperate to pretend he was shot on the stairs as opposed to after walking in the bedroom is because if Nevill and Sheila were on the same level then in order to shoot Nevill's lip and jaw she would have to have aimed upwards and thus the trajectory of the bullets would be up instead of down. The same is true of the shoulder wound for that matter. There are only two possibilities:
1) the shooter was a higher level than Nevill
or
2) Nevill was not fully upright when shot
Sheila standing on a chair doesn't sound credible so Holly decided to go with Nevill on the stairs so that this put him at a lower position than Sheila so that she would have to aim down instead of up. That's why she made up him being shot on the stairs instead of on the same level walking into the bedroom.
You seem to suggest that he was shot while walking in the bedroom which fails to deal with the problem of the downward trajectories for these 3 wounds. Furthermore you suggest the 4th graze wound happened as he was turning around to walk back out to get away. If that were the case then the bullet that grazed him wound have been found in the hall instead of the bedroom. The only way for the graze wound to be delivered while he was in the doorway with the bullet landing in the bedroom would be if the killer was by Sheila's room firing at him so that the bullet would graze him and land in the bedroom. But in that instance his right side would be exposed to the killer not his left so it still doesn't work. Furthermore the casing would have flown down the stairs.
As for the other casings you and Holly are hopelessly wrong. You make it sound as if the casings go in practically the same direction as the bullets. The spent shells fly RIGHT and forward not straight forward. In clock terms they eject between 2 and 2:30. If you prefer map direction they eject Northeast.
Shooting at Nevill's side of the bed results in the casings landing on June's side of the bed, hitting the wall behind June's side and deflecting into the corner, or landing right next to June's side of the bed. The precise angle of the shot will determine which of these 3 paths the casing will take.
When June got out of bed any that were on the bed could have fallen off. In any event one casing was on the bed on her side. The other 3 associated with Nevill's wounds were in the corner by her side of the bed which is where they would be expected to land if they were knocked off the bed or bounced off the bed or wall. If the shooter was angled enough they could land there naturally without deflecting even.
Someone shooting towards the door would have the casings land in the corner near the chair but no casings were there:
(http://s24.postimg.org/usdbdr6tx/shellcasings.jpg)
Standing on the landing shooting at someone down the stairs would result in the casings landing down on the ground level or the steps near the ground level.
The casing locations are not in the least bit supportive of your account or Holly's they are consistent with Nevill being shot while sitting on his side of the bed. The trajectory of the 3 down wounds and the fact the left side was targeted is fully consistent with being shot on his side of the bed. The bullet that grazed him seems to have ricocheted to land where it did, there is no way for it to get there without ricocheting unless the killer on June's side of the bed in the corner behind the door and Nevill was on June's side of the bed being shot at close range which seems rather unlikely. It makes no sense for the killer to run to the corner to hide. But even if that did happen it would be him getting shot as he was trying to leave after already being shot on the bed 3 times.
Shooting at June as she is in bed results in shells getting into the corner. Shooting as she was getting out of bed or after she was out of the bed results in the shells landing closer to the door. 2 shots were received as she was getting out of bed or was out of the bed but still next to it and there were 2 casings by the door where they would be expected to be. The shell on the transition strip was associated with the shot between her eyes most likely.
(http://s30.postimg.org/l3vevmdwx/junecasings.jpg)
The only mystery at all is the graze wound. That's the one that makes no sense of the location unless it ricocheted. Did it ricochet before or after it struck Nevill is a big question and there is no way to know. The shell casings have no ability to clear that up. So it is actually possible that the 8th wound was a miss and grazed him simply by ricocheting. It is not possible to know whether he was standing or not when hit by the graze wound either.
It's clear that Nevill was shot 3 times while on the bed or as he was in the process of getting up from the bed. Whether he was standing fully upright or not at the time of the graze wound is unclear and will never be known nor can we tell precisely where in the room he was since a ricochet by definition makes such difficult to tell.
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AMBER WARNING
Some posts on this thread are getting close to breaking one of the three high level forum rules stated on the home page:
* Abuse will not be tolerated. Break the rules expect a ban!
These posts are certainly not in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Please refrain from using ANY inflammatory language aimed at posters and/or the content of their posts eg: BS, hypocrite, nonsense, pathetic, stupid, zealot etc. Where posters disagree with a post, simply state you disagree giving your reasons why.
Thank you for your cooperation.
-
AMBER WARNING
Some posts on this thread are getting close to breaking one of the three high level forum rules stated on the home page:
* Abuse will not be tolerated. Break the rules expect a ban!
These posts are certainly not in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Please refrain from using ANY inflammatory language aimed at posters and/or the content of their posts eg: BS, hypocrite, nonsense, pathetic, stupid, zealot etc. Where posters disagree with a post, simply state you disagree giving your reasons why.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I quite agree Holly, members please note!!
ps Mods please fell free to remove offending remarks.
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Both of you are being extremely hypocritical and making pathetic arguments.
Both of you say there was no blood in the bedroom from Nevill so he had to have been shot on the stairs. They didn't test most of the blood in the bedroom so you have no idea if there was any blood or not. His blood was not found on the stairs though. How come he could be shot on the stairs and not bleed profusely on the step carpeting but it is impossible for him to be shot in the bedroom without bleeding profusely on the floor? This is a perfect example of how poorly reasoned your claims are. They are poorly reasoned because you are just making up excuses to try to pretend Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom because Nevill being shot in the bedroom ends the farce you two try to present of Jeremy being innocent. You are stuck making up any BS you can for the sake of pretense. That results in wild inconsistency and claims that fail to make any sense. If he was shot in the bedroom he would have left large amounts of blood there but if shot on the stairs he would not. How stupid do you think people are? This takes care of the blood nonsense.
Next comes the wound trajectories. Do you and Holly understand the difference between left and right? Someone walking up the stairs has their left side to Sheila's room and their right side to the master bedroom. Someone shooting from the master bedroom would be firing the bullets from the person's right side. It is patently absurd to claim that someone firing from the right side of the victim would be able to shoot the victim's left side. The main reason why Holly is so desperate to pretend he was shot on the stairs as opposed to after walking in the bedroom is because if Nevill and Sheila were on the same level then in order to shoot Nevill's lip and jaw she would have to have aimed upwards and thus the trajectory of the bullets would be up instead of down. The same is true of the shoulder wound for that matter. There are only two possibilities:
1) the shooter was a higher level than Nevill
or
2) Nevill was not fully upright when shot
Sheila standing on a chair doesn't sound credible so Holly decided to go with Nevill on the stairs so that this put him at a lower position than Sheila so that she would have to aim down instead of up. That's why she made up him being shot on the stairs instead of on the same level walking into the bedroom.
You seem to suggest that he was shot while walking in the bedroom which fails to deal with the problem of the downward trajectories for these 3 wounds. Furthermore you suggest the 4th graze wound happened as he was turning around to walk back out to get away. If that were the case then the bullet that grazed him wound have been found in the hall instead of the bedroom. The only way for the graze wound to be delivered while he was in the doorway with the bullet landing in the bedroom would be if the killer was by Sheila's room firing at him so that the bullet would graze him and land in the bedroom. But in that instance his right side would be exposed to the killer not his left so it still doesn't work. Furthermore the casing would have flown down the stairs.
As for the other casings you and Holly are hopelessly wrong. You make it sound as if the casings go in practically the same direction as the bullets. The spent shells fly RIGHT and forward not straight forward. In clock terms they eject between 2 and 2:30. If you prefer map direction they eject Northeast.
Shooting at Nevill's side of the bed results in the casings landing on June's side of the bed, hitting the wall behind June's side and deflecting into the corner, or landing right next to June's side of the bed. The precise angle of the shot will determine which of these 3 paths the casing will take.
When June got out of bed any that were on the bed could have fallen off. In any event one casing was on the bed on her side. The other 3 associated with Nevill's wounds were in the corner by her side of the bed which is where they would be expected to land if they were knocked off the bed or bounced off the bed or wall. If the shooter was angled enough they could land there naturally without deflecting even.
Someone shooting towards the door would have the casings land in the corner near the chair but no casings were there:
(http://s24.postimg.org/usdbdr6tx/shellcasings.jpg)
Standing on the landing shooting at someone down the stairs would result in the casings landing down on the ground level or the steps near the ground level.
The casing locations are not in the least bit supportive of your account or Holly's they are consistent with Nevill being shot while sitting on his side of the bed. The trajectory of the 3 down wounds and the fact the left side was targeted is fully consistent with being shot on his side of the bed. The bullet that grazed him seems to have ricocheted to land where it did, there is no way for it to get there without ricocheting unless the killer on June's side of the bed in the corner behind the door and Nevill was on June's side of the bed being shot at close range which seems rather unlikely. It makes no sense for the killer to run to the corner to hide. But even if that did happen it would be him getting shot as he was trying to leave after already being shot on the bed 3 times.
Shooting at June as she is in bed results in shells getting into the corner. Shooting as she was getting out of bed or after she was out of the bed results in the shells landing closer to the door. 2 shots were received as she was getting out of bed or was out of the bed but still next to it and there were 2 casings by the door where they would be expected to be. The shell on the transition strip was associated with the shot between her eyes most likely.
(http://s30.postimg.org/l3vevmdwx/junecasings.jpg)
The only mystery at all is the graze wound. That's the one that makes no sense of the location unless it ricocheted. Did it ricochet before or after it struck Nevill is a big question and there is no way to know. The shell casings have no ability to clear that up. So it is actually possible that the 8th wound was a miss and grazed him simply by ricocheting. It is not possible to know whether he was standing or not when hit by the graze wound either.
It's clear that Nevill was shot 3 times while on the bed or as he was in the process of getting up from the bed. Whether he was standing fully upright or not at the time of the graze wound is unclear and will never be known nor can we tell precisely where in the room he was since a ricochet by definition makes such difficult to tell.
I haven't claimed NB was shot coming up the main stairs. I believe NB sustained the two facial shots whilst situated on the landing steps facing the entrance to the main bedroom door with the perp and ejection port of rifle just within the entrance of the main bedroom. I believe NB then turned and fled down the main staircase with the perp behind him. At this point he sustained the shoulder and elbow shots. This fits with the:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
- trajectory of shots, 20 degrees below the horizontal: NB slightly lower than perp.
- casings ejecting slightly forward and to the right although flight could be impeded by any objects eg right angle of main bedroom walls. I believe casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 pertain to the facial shots and casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 pertain to the shoulder and elbow shots.
- none of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small blood stains were found on the landing although it's unclear whose blood it was. AE's WS states EP washed and removed blood staining from the carpet on the stairs. No mention of blood staining on hall carpet. A light distribution of blood staining was found on the kitchen floor leading to where NB was found. It seems there was a trail of blood from the landing leading to where NB was found:
Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
I will endeavour to get a 3d computer animated model drawn up in the near future, copyrighted of course ?>)()< Noone is getting their grubby paws on my intellectual property ?>)()<
Why didn't JB's useless defence (yes that's you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin) get to grips with all of this pre trial?
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I washed my paws beforehand... https://vimeo.com/163370051 8((()*/ (https://vimeo.com/163370051)
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I washed my paws beforehand... https://vimeo.com/163370051 8((()*/ (https://vimeo.com/163370051)
Excellent start, thanks 8((()*/
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Excellent start, thanks 8((()*/
Here's something else for you to ponder &%+((£ ... https://vimeo.com/163391502 (https://vimeo.com/163391502)
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Here's something else for you to ponder &%+((£ ... https://vimeo.com/163391502 (https://vimeo.com/163391502)
Oooh! TA for those, Myster. Seeing it helps me to clarify in my own mind. Any more where those came from?
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Oooh! TA for those, Myster. Seeing it helps me to clarify in my own mind. Any more where those came from?
Some screenshots from a SketchUp drawing of WHF, based on the original scaled plans (as near as possible). There are differences in types of doors, furniture, etc. and a missing change in level in the Main Hall which was a pain to try and include. The rifle and magazine are shown where Jeremy Bamber said he left them, by and on the settle, but which obviously weren't there after the incident. Try not to increase the picture size, as Dropbox makes them appear grainy if you do...
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D)
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Some screenshots from a SketchUp drawing of WHF, based on the original scaled plans (as near as possible). There are differences in types of doors, furniture, etc. and a missing change in level in the Main Hall which was a pain to try and include. The rifle and magazine are shown where Jeremy Bamber said he left them, by and on the settle, but which obviously weren't there after the incident. Try not to increase the picture size, as Dropbox makes them appear grainy if you do...
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D)
Just found out that you can click on Open at the top right when viewing each pic and the result doesn't look too bad.
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I haven't claimed NB was shot coming up the main stairs. I believe NB sustained the two facial shots whilst situated on the landing steps facing the entrance to the main bedroom door with the perp and ejection port of rifle just within the entrance of the main bedroom.
This fits with the:
- trajectory of shots, 20 degrees below the horizontal: NB slightly lower than perp.
You are contradicting yourself. The landing is not a step it is the hallway floor which is the same exact height as the bedroom floor. Your drawing featured Nevill being shot on the steps not in the hall.
Nevill being shot while standing outside the bedroom door would not enable someone shorter than him to shoot him in the face at a downward angle unless the shooter was standing on something. Moreover, the shooter was positioned between 9:30 and 10:30 while shooting Nevill in the face. No shooter could accomplish such from right inside the door they would have to be near the corner of the room.
(http://s31.postimg.org/scyxlwazf/whfmaster.jpg)
The red shows the bullet trajectory in order to shoot the person entering. The yellow shows the trajectory of the casings. Standing in such location would not enable to killer to fire at Nevill at a downward angle.
I believe NB then turned and fled down the main staircase with the perp behind him. At this point he sustained the shoulder and elbow shots.
For the 100th time, Nevill's graze wound and the shot to his shoulder were not fired at his back. The killer was at 8 O'clock to 8:45 when the shoulder shot and graze wounds were delivered. It is totally impossible for someone standing in the 6 O'clock position to achieve such trajectories.
A 3 dimensional image would show the trajectories much better because all angles can be shown but it is what it is:
(http://s31.postimg.org/4j1kqyniz/nevillback.jpg)
Apart from the angle being impossible to achieve, if the bullet that grazed Nevill had been fired while he was on the stairs then such bullet would have been on the stairs or at the bottom of the stairs not inside the bedroom.
You totally ignored the evidence and simply made up that he was shot entering the bedroom and on the stairs because you want to pretend that Nevill called Jeremy while Sheila went upstairs and shot June then he heard the shots and ran upstairs to check things out. You made such up without regard to the evidence and are now trying to find ways to distort to pretend evidence supports this made up account. The evidence doesn't support it whatsoever. The trajectories can't be achieved you claims are impossible.
- casings ejecting slightly forward and to the right although flight could be impeded by any objects eg right angle of main bedroom walls. I believe casings DRH/3 and DRH/4 pertain to the facial shots and casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 pertain to the shoulder and elbow shots.
Firing down the stairs would result in the casings being ejected to the bottom stairs or even ending up on the ground floor. Your suggestion that DRH/13 would eject not down the stairs to the right but rather directly to the left of the weapon is patently absurd. DRH/14 is on the wrong side of the landing and we know it is from the kitchen. One casing from the kitchen was missing and this was the only casing that was out of place so has to be that casing.
DRH/3 and 4 deflecting forward left off the wall (the wall that is directly to the right of the doorway) would result in them landing near June's side of the bed. The trajectories of the bullets don't fit nor does the locaiton of the casings your suggestions are not the least bit possible.
- none of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two small blood stains were found on the landing although it's unclear whose blood it was. AE's WS states EP washed and removed blood staining from the carpet on the stairs. No mention of blood staining on hall carpet. A light distribution of blood staining was found on the kitchen floor leading to where NB was found. It seems there was a trail of blood from the landing leading to where NB was found:
Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
I will endeavour to get a 3d computer animated model drawn up in the near future, copyrighted of course ?>)()< Noone is getting their grubby paws on my intellectual property ?>)()<
Why didn't JB's useless defence (yes that's you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin) get to grips with all of this pre trial?
You are making things up and your made up things could not be used by the defense. There wasn't a trail of blood on the stairs. They found the 2 static drops in the hall that they took and tested. DRH/49 was group O while DRH/47 was inconclusive. DRH/49 got there either by Nevill walking to Sheila's room and then turning around and running downstairs instead or it dripped off the killer/weapon after the Kitchen episode when the killer went to get Sheila.
You are so biased that time after time after time you IGNORE that they didn't test the blood stained bedding NOR did they take all the blood from the bedroom carpet they only took 2 swatches leaving the rest of the blood stained carpet. They only tested 5 stains on each swatch not all of them thus there is no way to know if the other blood on the swatches that went untested was Nevill's. Nor is there anyway to know if Nevill's blood was on the bedding since it was not testing. Nor is there any way to know if the blood stained carpet that remained had any of Nevill's blood since it was not tested. When you insist that Nevill's blood definitely wasn't in the bedroom that is a false claim. There was a considerable amount of blood that went untested int he bedroom. The defense had no ability to say Neivll's blood definitely wasn't int he bedroom since there was untested blood that could have been his.
Moreover, the defense had no experts who would opine that Nevill had to bleed profusely on the bed or carpet. His clothing soaked up the blood from his shoulder wound, his graze wound did not cause any bleeding. His lip and jaw wounds caused mainly internal bleeding, the external bleeding dripped on him mainly. There was no way to say that there would have to be much blood in the bedroom and no way to establish for sure his blood wasn't in there.
Testing 5 drops from a swatch with 20 proves who those 5 drops belong to it doesn't prove who the 15 untested drops belong to. it can be used to establish the person the 5 belonged to was standing over the swatch it can't prove that no one else was standing there as well. You always hold out evidence as proving things it doesn't.
You don't follow the evidence where it leads. You make up what you want to believe then strain to try to make the evidence fit.
This has a simplistic legend which shows the position of the shooter and Nevill as well as the trajectory of the casings in yellow. This is the horizontal angle of the face wounds. You simply superimpose this anywhere in the house you want and it will show where the killer would have to be to shoot Nevill if he were in such location. What this fails to show is the vertical angle this is just the horizontal. The vertical angle was downward which means the killer was at a higher level than Neville or Nevill was not fully upright when shot. You have to account for both the vertical and horizontal.
(http://s31.postimg.org/5efd98fvf/whf2ndfloor.jpg)
This shows the angle of the other 2 shots and in fact the angle is probably closer to the 9 "Oclock position than this, this is the furthest exten from 9 tha tis possible:
(http://s31.postimg.org/5hc5m32aj/nev.jpg)
With respect to the vertical angle the shoulder shot again Nevill was not fully upright or the killer was higher. The graze wound is low enough that it is possible to inflict while Nevill and the killer are both on the same level both fully upright even if the killer were shorter.
Your claims hold no water that is why the defense didn't make such claims at trial.
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Some screenshots from a SketchUp drawing of WHF, based on the original scaled plans (as near as possible). There are differences in types of doors, furniture, etc. and a missing change in level in the Main Hall which was a pain to try and include. The rifle and magazine are shown where Jeremy Bamber said he left them, by and on the settle, but which obviously weren't there after the incident. Try not to increase the picture size, as Dropbox makes them appear grainy if you do...
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF%203D)
I'm not sure whether you need to sign up to Dropbox or be a member already in order to view images, so this link to Imgur might be more suitable as I think you can see them without joining... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg322394#msg322394 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg322394#msg322394)
If you still can't see any, PM me and I'll attempt to upload the images directly to the White House Farm - Floor plans and photos section.
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I'm not sure whether you need to sign up to Dropbox or be a member already in order to view images, so this link to Imgur might be more suitable as I think you can see them without joining... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg322394#msg322394 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg322394#msg322394)
If you still can't see any, PM me and I'll attempt to upload the images directly to the White House Farm - Floor plans and photos section.
Cheers, Myster. That one works well.
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You are contradicting yourself. The landing is not a step it is the hallway floor which is the same exact height as the bedroom floor. Your drawing featured Nevill being shot on the steps not in the hall.
Nevill being shot while standing outside the bedroom door would not enable someone shorter than him to shoot him in the face at a downward angle unless the shooter was standing on something. Moreover, the shooter was positioned between 9:30 and 10:30 while shooting Nevill in the face. No shooter could accomplish such from right inside the door they would have to be near the corner of the room.
(http://s31.postimg.org/scyxlwazf/whfmaster.jpg)
The red shows the bullet trajectory in order to shoot the person entering. The yellow shows the trajectory of the casings. Standing in such location would not enable to killer to fire at Nevill at a downward angle.
For the 100th time, Nevill's graze wound and the shot to his shoulder were not fired at his back. The killer was at 8 O'clock to 8:45 when the shoulder shot and graze wounds were delivered. It is totally impossible for someone standing in the 6 O'clock position to achieve such trajectories.
A 3 dimensional image would show the trajectories much better because all angles can be shown but it is what it is:
(http://s31.postimg.org/4j1kqyniz/nevillback.jpg)
Apart from the angle being impossible to achieve, if the bullet that grazed Nevill had been fired while he was on the stairs then such bullet would have been on the stairs or at the bottom of the stairs not inside the bedroom.
You totally ignored the evidence and simply made up that he was shot entering the bedroom and on the stairs because you want to pretend that Nevill called Jeremy while Sheila went upstairs and shot June then he heard the shots and ran upstairs to check things out. You made such upwithout regard to the evidence and are now trying to find ways to distort to pretend evidence supports this made up account. The evidence doesn't support it whatsoever. The trajectories can't be achieved you claims are impossible.
Firing down the stairs would result in the casings being ejected to the bottom stairs or even ending up on the ground floor. Your suggestion that DRH/13 would eject not down the stairs to the right but rather directly to the left of the weapon is patently absurd. DRH/14 is on the wrong side of the landing and we know it is from the kitchen. One casing from the kitchen was missing and this was the only casing that was out of place so has to be that casing.
DRH/3 and 4 deflecting forward left off the wall (the wall that is directly to the right of the doorway) would result in them landing near June's side of the bed. The trajectories of the bullets don't fit nor does the locaiton of the casings your suggestions are not the least bit possible.
You are making things up and your made up things could not be used by the defense. There wasn't a trail of blood on the stairs. They found the 2 static drops in the hall that they took and tested. DRH/49 was group O while DRH/47 was inconclusive. DRH/49 got there either by Nevill walking to Sheila's room and then turning around and running downstairs instead or it dripped off the killer/weapon after the Kitchen episode when the killer went to get Sheila.
You are so biased that time after time after time you IGNORE that they didn't test the blood stained bedding NOR did they take all the blood from the bedroom carpet they only took 2 swatches leaving the rest of the blood stained carpet. They only tested 5 stains on each swatch not all of them thus there is no way to know if the other blood on the swatches that went untested was Nevill's. Nor is there anyway to know if Nevill's blood was on the bedding since it was not testing. Nor is there any way to know if the blood stained carpet that remained had any of Nevill's blood since it was not tested. When you insist that Nevill's blood definitely wasn't in the bedroom that is a false claim. There was a considerable amount of blood that went untested int he bedroom. The defense had no ability to say Neivll's blood definitely wasn't int he bedroom since there was untested blood that could have been his.
Moreover, the defense had no experts who would opine that Nevill had to bleed profusely on the bed or carpet. His clothing soaked up the blood from his shoulder wound, his graze wound did not cause any bleeding. His lip and jaw wounds caused mainly internal bleeding, the external bleeding dripped on him mainly. There was no way to say that there would have to be much blood in the bedroom and no way to establish for sure his blood wasn't in there.
Testing 5 drops from a swatch with 20 proves who those 5 drops belong to it doesn't prove who the 15 untested drops belong to. it can be used to establish the person the 5 belonged to was standing over the swatch it can't prove that no one else was standing there as well. You always hold out evidence as proving things it doesn't.
You don't follow the evidence where it leads. You make up what you want to believe then strain to try to make the evidence fit.
This has a simplistic legend which shows the position of the shooter and Nevill as well as the trajectory of the casings in yellow. This is the horizontal angle of the face wounds. You simply superimpose this anywhere in the house you want and it will show where the killer would have to be to shoot Nevill if he were in such location. What this fails to show is the vertical angle this is just the horizontal. The vertical angle was downward which means the killer was at a higher level than Neville or Nevill was not fully upright when shot. You have to account for both the vertical and horizontal.
(http://s31.postimg.org/5efd98fvf/whf2ndfloor.jpg)
This shows the angle of the other 2 shots and in fact the angle is probably closer to the 9 "Oclock position than this, this is the furthest exten from 9 tha tis possible:
(http://s31.postimg.org/5hc5m32aj/nev.jpg)
With respect to the vertical angle the shoulder shot again Nevill was not fully upright or the killer was higher. The graze wound is low enough that it is possible to inflict while Nevill and the killer are both on the same level both fully upright even if the killer were shorter.
Your claims hold no water that is why the defense didn't make such claims at trial.
Scipio I've recently posted a polite warning about the use of inflammatory language in posts:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7135.msg321282#msg321282
I've highlighted text in your post above where you have used language/phrases that many will consider inflammatory. Please refer to my post here and note how I stick to the case only:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7135.msg321827#msg321827
Many of your paragraphs above start off with the word "You" or "Your" eg:
"You are contradicting yourself"
"You totally ignored the evidence"
"You are making things up"
"You are so biased"
"You don't follow the evidence"
"Your claims hold no water"
The fact others do not share your views on the case does not mean they are biased, making things up etc.
Please drop all personal comments and stick to debating the case only. I welcome the fact you do not share my views on the case but debate must be civil and respect opposing views.
In future any posts containing inflammatory language/phrases such as the above will be edited but I trust this will not be necessary. 8((()*/
I will respond to the case related aspects of your post later.
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You are contradicting yourself. The landing is not a step it is the hallway floor which is the same exact height as the bedroom floor. Your drawing featured Nevill being shot on the steps not in the hall.
Nevill being shot while standing outside the bedroom door would not enable someone shorter than him to shoot him in the face at a downward angle unless the shooter was standing on something. Moreover, the shooter was positioned between 9:30 and 10:30 while shooting Nevill in the face. No shooter could accomplish such from right inside the door they would have to be near the corner of the room.
(http://s31.postimg.org/scyxlwazf/whfmaster.jpg)
The layout diagram of WHF shows two oblong shapes preceding the entrance to the main bedroom indicative of two stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
AE's WS refers to reaching the landing and going up a few steps and turning right into the main bedroom:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100;image (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100;image)
There's also a photo showing a sloping handrail leading up to the main bedroom:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920)
The red shows the bullet trajectory in order to shoot the person entering. The yellow shows the trajectory of the casings. Standing in such location would not enable to killer to fire at Nevill at a downward angle.
For the 100th time, Nevill's graze wound and the shot to his shoulder were not fired at his back. The killer was at 8 O'clock to 8:45 when the shoulder shot and graze wounds were delivered. It is totally impossible for someone standing in the 6 O'clock position to achieve such trajectories.
A 3 dimensional image would show the trajectories much better because all angles can be shown but it is what it is:
(http://s31.postimg.org/4j1kqyniz/nevillback.jpg)
Apart from the angle being impossible to achieve, if the bullet that grazed Nevill had been fired while he was on the stairs then such bullet would have been on the stairs or at the bottom of the stairs not inside the bedroom.
You totally ignored the evidence and simply made up that he was shot entering the bedroom and on the stairs because you want to pretend that Nevill called Jeremy while Sheila went upstairs and shot June then he heard the shots and ran upstairs to check things out. You made such up without regard to the evidence and are now trying to find ways to distort to pretend evidence supports this made up account. The evidence doesn't support it whatsoever. The trajectories can't be achieved you claims are impossible.
Firing down the stairs would result in the casings being ejected to the bottom stairs or even ending up on the ground floor. Your suggestion that DRH/13 would eject not down the stairs to the right but rather directly to the left of the weapon is patently absurd. DRH/14 is on the wrong side of the landing and we know it is from the kitchen. One casing from the kitchen was missing and this was the only casing that was out of place so has to be that casing.
DRH/3 and 4 deflecting forward left off the wall (the wall that is directly to the right of the doorway) would result in them landing near June's side of the bed. The trajectories of the bullets don't fit nor does the locaiton of the casings your suggestions are not the least bit possible.
I believe NB was stood in the area where the handrail turns or maybe on the first step and this is where he sustained the facial shots with the perp firing from inside the main bedroom. The ejection port is within the bedroom with the casings ejected slightly upwards and to the right hence DRH/3 and DRH/4 are located just inside the main bedroom. The following photo shows this is a distinct possibility:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920)
This is the most plausible explanation for the trajectory of the facial shots ie 20 degrees below the horizontal.
I believe the shots to NB's shoulder and elbow were sustained whilst NB had turned and was facing down the main staircase with the perp behind him. The pathologist's report states:
Entry wound measuring 3/16" situated 1 1/4" below the point of the left shoulder on its outer aspect. The track of this wound was downwards causing a comminuted fracture of the upper third of the humerus with considerable overlapping of the fractured from soft tissue near the fracture site.
Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2" situated 4" above the left elbow and associated with surrounding bruising. The track of this wound was from the left arm and against the left side of the lower chest causing a 1 1/2" graze with a curved edge which was 3/16" in width. The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in the left lower chest although these could not be located within the body cavity.
The above relates to wounds 7 and 8.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676)
Image of humerus below.
It seems to me NB sustained the grazing wound when the perp was behind him since it bruised his left elbow and bullet fragments were found in his chest cavity. I can't see how these injuries occurred from any other direction?
Again with the casings ejected slightly upwards and to the right I believe casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 landed on the transition strip to the main bedroom and the landing.
You are making things up and your made up things could not be used by the defense. There wasn't a trail of blood on the stairs. They found the 2 static drops in the hall that they took and tested. DRH/49 was group O while DRH/47 was inconclusive. DRH/49 got there either by Nevill walking to Sheila's room and then turning around and running downstairs instead or it dripped off the killer/weapon after the Kitchen episode when the killer went to get Sheila.
You are so biased that time after time after time you IGNORE that they didn't test the blood stained bedding NOR did they take all the blood from the bedroom carpet they only took 2 swatches leaving the rest of the blood stained carpet. They only tested 5 stains on each swatch not all of them thus there is no way to know if the other blood on the swatches that went untested was Nevill's. Nor is there anyway to know if Nevill's blood was on the bedding since it was not testing. Nor is there any way to know if the blood stained carpet that remained had any of Nevill's blood since it was not tested. When you insist that Nevill's blood definitely wasn't in the bedroom that is a false claim. There was a considerable amount of blood that went untested int he bedroom. The defense had no ability to say Neivll's blood definitely wasn't int he bedroom since there was untested blood that could have been his.
Moreover, the defense had no experts who would opine that Nevill had to bleed profusely on the bed or carpet. His clothing soaked up the blood from his shoulder wound, his graze wound did not cause any bleeding. His lip and jaw wounds caused mainly internal bleeding, the external bleeding dripped on him mainly. There was no way to say that there would have to be much blood in the bedroom and no way to establish for sure his blood wasn't in there.
Testing 5 drops from a swatch with 20 proves who those 5 drops belong to it doesn't prove who the 15 untested drops belong to. it can be used to establish the person the 5 belonged to was standing over the swatch it can't prove that no one else was standing there as well. You always hold out evidence as proving things it doesn't.
You don't follow the evidence where it leads. You make up what you want to believe then strain to try to make the evidence fit.
This has a simplistic legend which shows the position of the shooter and Nevill as well as the trajectory of the casings in yellow. This is the horizontal angle of the face wounds. You simply superimpose this anywhere in the house you want and it will show where the killer would have to be to shoot Nevill if he were in such location. What this fails to show is the vertical angle this is just the horizontal. The vertical angle was downward which means the killer was at a higher level than Neville or Nevill was not fully upright when shot. You have to account for both the vertical and horizontal.
(http://s31.postimg.org/5efd98fvf/whf2ndfloor.jpg)
This shows the angle of the other 2 shots and in fact the angle is probably closer to the 9 "Oclock position than this, this is the furthest exten from 9 tha tis possible:
(http://s31.postimg.org/5hc5m32aj/nev.jpg)
With respect to the vertical angle the shoulder shot again Nevill was not fully upright or the killer was higher. The graze wound is low enough that it is possible to inflict while Nevill and the killer are both on the same level both fully upright even if the killer were shorter.
Your claims hold no water that is why the defense didn't make such claims at trial.
Scipio as far as I can recall I've only ever stated no evidence exits of NB's blood in the bedroom? The two blood stains on the landing carpet DRH/47 and DRH/49 were inconclusive. The lab required two positives to confirm a conclusive result. They were only able to get an 'A' and 'O' grouping result on the carpet samples from the landing. NB's grouping was 'O' and June's 'A'.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg313916#msg313916 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg313916#msg313916)
According to AE, EP cleaned and removed blood from the carpet on the stairs. No mention of the hall carpet (area leading from bottom of stairs to kitchen). A light distribution of blood was found on the kitchen floor:
Two blood stained carpet samples were taken from the landing DRH/47 and DRH/49.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221)
According to AE's WS EP pointed out some blood on the stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100)
There was also a "light distribution" on the kitchen floor:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=216;image)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217)
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The layout diagram of WHF shows two oblong shapes preceding the entrance to the main bedroom indicative of two stairs:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)
AE's WS refers to reaching the landing and going up a few steps and turning right into the main bedroom:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100;image (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100;image)
There's also a photo showing a sloping handrail leading up to the main bedroom:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920)
I believe NB was stood in the area where the handrail turns or maybe on the first step and this is where he sustained the facial shots with the perp firing from inside the main bedroom.
If he was standing where the handrail turns then he would be the same floor level as the shooter and the downward trajectory can't be achieved. If he was standing on the stairs then his right side would be facing the bedroom doorway. He was shot from the left not the right. The legends I provided detail where the shooter would be in relation to Nevill. The first one was with the shooter to Nevill's front left which is with respect to the face shots and the other is with the shooter to his left rear which is how the other two shots were delivered.
If you use such you would see that someone walking up the stairs could only target his face if standing by sheila's door. Pretend the dot in the middle is Nevill. He is on the stairs. The blue field is where the shooter would have to be in the hallway.
(http://s31.postimg.org/tmxnap9h7/rotatedclock.jpg)
You can rotate the image depending upon where you want to stick Nevill. If Nevill were facing the master bedroom door the killer would have to be inside the room somewhere near the chair:
(http://s31.postimg.org/l04p8oxff/rotatedclock.jpg)
The blue field shows where the killer had to be when firing at his face and the red field shows where the killer was to fire the arm shots.
The ejection port is within the bedroom with the casings ejected slightly upwards and to the right hence DRH/3 and DRH/4 are located just inside the main bedroom. The following photo shows this is a distinct possibility:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920)
They eject at between 1 and 2 o'clock. The eject hard they don't just travel a little. They would not land where you claim and more importantly the right side would be targeted if someone were on the stairs and if walking in the room then the killer would have to be where I showed.
This is the most plausible explanation for the trajectory of the facial shots ie 20 degrees below the horizontal.
No your theory fails to account for the downward angle to a shot suffered while on the landing. Only oon the steps could the angle be achieved but on the steps the left side would not be targeted.
The most plausible explanation for the trajectory is Nevill was seated on the bed or in the process of getting up when he was shot in the face. The cases were found where they would be expected to be if this is what happened.
I believe the shots to NB's shoulder and elbow were sustained whilst NB had turned and was facing down the main staircase with the perp behind him. The pathologist's report states:
Entry wound measuring 3/16" situated 1 1/4" below the point of the left shoulder on its outer aspect. The track of this wound was downwards causing a comminuted fracture of the upper third of the humerus with considerable overlapping of the fractured from soft tissue near the fracture site.
Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2" situated 4" above the left elbow and associated with surrounding bruising. The track of this wound was from the left arm and against the left side of the lower chest causing a 1 1/2" graze with a curved edge which was 3/16" in width. The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in the left lower chest although these could not be located within the body cavity.
The above relates to wounds 7 and 8.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=676)
Image of humerus below.
It seems to me NB sustained the grazing wound when the perp was behind him since it bruised his left elbow and bullet fragments were found in his chest cavity. I can't see how these injuries occurred from any other direction?
I showed you where the killer had to be in order to fire the shoulder wound and graze wound. The killer had to be in the red field.
(http://s31.postimg.org/pmsvyekor/clock.jpg)
No the outer aspect is the side of the shoulder. You can't hit the side of the shoulder if you are directly behind someone you must be to the side.
The graze wound went left to right into his side, that can only be achieved with the killer at nearly a perfect 9 O'clock position. My clocks above are is a little flawed only with respect to the fact that the trajectory of the graze would could be 9 or a little more than 9. The red is really the trajectory of the shoulder wound. The shoulder wound was more to the back than the graze wound was. The green is the area where the killer was to fire the graze wound:
(http://s31.postimg.org/brrfbus6z/clockgraze.jpg)
It should be obvious to you that when Nevill is walking down the stairs the wall is blocking the killer from being able to target his left side. Thus the wall prevents the necessary angles from being achieved. You have not taken into account the location of the bullet that grazed Nevill. If he had been grazed while oon the stairs it would have been on the stairs not in the bedroom. But again the only way to graze him while he is on the stairs is to shoot through the wall.
The location of the casings and bullet and downward trajectories all support Nevill sitting in bed or in the process of getting out of bed when shot.
Again with the casings ejected slightly upwards and to the right I believe casings DRH/13 and DRH/14 landed on the transition strip to the main bedroom and the landing.
That doesn't make any sense. Moreover, DRH/14 clearly was from the kitchen which was missing a casing.
Scipio as far as I can recall I've only ever stated no evidence exits of NB's blood in the bedroom? The two blood stains on the landing carpet DRH/47 and DRH/49 were inconclusive. The lab required two positives to confirm a conclusive result. They were only able to get an 'A' and 'O' grouping result on the carpet samples from the landing. NB's grouping was 'O' and June's 'A'.
On blue there was a post confirming DRH/49 was Nevill's blood. that in turn was used to support allegations that Nevill came out of Sheila's room. I didn't save the docs because it is inconsequential. The hallway is not big it doesn't take much to reach the location where it was found from the bedroom. Nevill could easily have ran towards Sheila's door before going down the stairs and also the killer could have had a drop of his blood which dropped off. Whichever is the case makes no material difference.
They didn't test all the blood on the bedding and carpet in the bedroom so there is no way to know if Nevill's blood was there or not. Being shot there would not necessarily result in his dripping any blood in there. When you bleed from the mouth it moreso gets on you.
The only reliable evidence of where he was shot are the casings, bullet that grazed him, trajectories of he wounds not just the casings and the entire circumstances. June would not be sleeping in bed while Sheila was running around with a rifle. If he got up to go check on things then he would have been shot elsewhere before June was ever shot.
How could a bullet graze Nevill while he is on the stairs then do a u turn back up the stairs and another u turn into the bedroom? How could a bullet scrape the back of the arm and then hit the side unless it were fired from the 9 o'clock position? How could someone walking down the stairs be shot from the 9 o clock position other than through the wall? The clocks I provided show the location of the shooter vis a vis Nevill for all 4 shots. The angles are not possible with Nevill on the stairs unless the killer was near Sheila's door but the casing location don't support such either.
You asked why the defense didn't challenge the assessment of him being shot in the bedroom and this explains why.
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Winder stairs connect the main staircase and the 2 or 3 stairs leading to the main bedroom. NB would need to reach the top of the 2 or 3 stairs leading to the main bedroom to be at the same level as the perp. It should be possible to determine the perp from this by taking into account:
- the trajectory of the shot 20 degrees below the horizontal
- depth of stair/step
- NB's height - 6' 4"
- JB's height - Not sure of JB's height think it's somewhere between 5' 10" to 6' so enough difference between the two siblings
- SC's height - 5' 7"
It's clear from the photo showing the handrail leading up to the main bedroom that if NB's face was positioned diagonally looking into the main bedroom then it is possible he sustained the two facial shots from this position.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
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The GSW NB sustained to his left elbow and chest cavity where the bullet did not actually pentrate but grazed only with fragments found in the chest cavity had to be fired when the perp was behind. The elblow could have been positioned parallel with the chest cavity or slightly forward or behind. The bullet must have skimmed both the elbow and chest cavity.
The following article by Dr Laura Perry re Suspraspinatus Trigger points highlights the outside of the shoulder which fits with the fact that the GSW NB sustained to his shoulder caused a comminuted fracture of the upper third of the humerus - see diagram below. It is clear to me that NB sustained the elbow and shoulder shot when the perp was behind him on the main staircase.
http://www.triggerpointtherapist.com/blog/supraspinatus-trigger-points/treating-stubborn-supraspinatus-trigger-points/
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Investigators and the lab did not identify any of NB's blood in the bedroom/bedding therefore there was plenty of scope for JB's defence to run with my scenario based on my diagrams. They didn't as they did not have the experience to effectively deal with a mass domestic shooting inside a residential property.
Can someone please provide any details of cases Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin had experience of that involved firearms prior to WHF.
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Scipio if you want to have the last say fine. I'm getting bored going round in ever increasing circles. As far as I'm concerned my theory fits with the gunshot trajectories, NB's injuries, blood staining and casings. We will have to agree to disagree.
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The GSW NB sustained to his left elbow and chest cavity where the bullet did not actually pentrate but grazed only with fragments found in the chest cavity had to be fired when the perp was behind. The elblow could have been positioned parallel with the chest cavity or slightly forward or behind. The bullet must have skimmed both the elbow and chest cavity.
The following article by Dr Laura Perry re Suspraspinatus Trigger points highlights the outside of the shoulder which fits with the fact that the GSW NB sustained to his shoulder caused a comminuted fracture of the upper third of the humerus - see diagram below. It is clear to me that NB sustained the elbow and shoulder shot when the perp was behind him on the main staircase.
http://www.triggerpointtherapist.com/blog/supraspinatus-trigger-points/treating-stubborn-supraspinatus-trigger-points/
1) Graze wound.
First of all you keep ignoring the elephant int he room which is the location of the bullet that grazed Neivll. It would be on the stairs if he were grazed while going down the stairs but it was found in the bedroom. You are not doing yourself any favors by ignoring such it just harms your credibility.
Second it's absolutely impossible for Nevill to have had his back directly to the shooter. There is no way for someone looking at this back to graze the arm in the manner in the direction in which it was grazed. The bullet went left to right above his elbow and then hit his side. That can only be achieved if the killer was standing virtually directly to his side.
(http://s31.postimg.org/7q255mocr/back.jpg)
From behind there are only 3 grazes possible to be inflicted to his upper arm:
1) back to front across his shoulder
2) back to front across the outside of his upper arm
3) back to front across the inside of his upper arm.
In all 3 cases the gaze would be from behind to front and the bullet would land in front of him not his his side because the bullet is traveling forward.
If the shooter is to his left side then the graze wound would be left to right and be able to hit his side since his side is to the right of the wound channel.
2) Shoulder wound.
The entrance wound was on the outer aspect of the shoulder. It is absolutely impossible to hit the out aspect from directly behind someone except if you graze them. The bullet did not simply graze him it entered and traveled left to right.
(http://s31.postimg.org/vrx2b3xhn/topviewofbody.jpg)
This is before even taking into account the casings which you are also dead wrong about.
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Scipio if you want to have the last say fine. I'm getting bored going round in ever increasing circles. As far as I'm concerned my theory fits with the gunshot trajectories, NB's injuries, blood staining and casings. We will have to agree to disagree.
We are going in circles because we disagree on the key issues. Your claims Sheila shot Nevill at he came up the stairs and ran back down so you can advance that Jeremy's claims are true. Your claims that Nevill was shot are not supported by the evidence.
If you want to advance that someone positioned to the right side of Nevill could shoot his left side go ahead but when you say the defense was inept for not advancing such then there is a problem.
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The handrail curves in the hallway itself not on the stairs. This view of the handrail from the bedroom is viewing the hall not the steps, the steps are hidden by the door/wall that the door hands on:
(http://s31.postimg.org/scyxlwazf/whfmaster.jpg)
Someone on the stop step has the wall blocking their head:
(http://s31.postimg.org/5u388ld57/nevillwalkingupstairs.jpg)
You keep ignoring the wall blocking the view of the stairs. Moreover you still keep ignoring it is the right side of the face that could be targeted even if the killer were at an extreme angle int he room and to see part of the head of someone who is on the stairs.
Here is what someone in the bedroom standing near the chair might be able to see if Nevill isn't hugging the wall but was as far as he possibly can be away from the wall while on the top step. The yellow stripes reflect the area that the wall/door would still be blocking even with him as far to the left of the step as possible:
(http://s31.postimg.org/r5f2ozsuj/skulllookingright.jpg)
What part of Nevill could be targeted? The right side not his left. His left was facing sheila's door! This was explained to you countless times. Surely you understand the difference between right and left.
Not only would the right side be targeted, the shots would travel from right to left. Nevill's wounds featured the bullets traveling left to right and it was the left side of his skull that was hit.
You are placing the shooter on the opposite side of where the shooter was.
Here is Nevill on the stairs. The bedroom is to his right and our left. The red is where the shooter was firing from.
You have the shooter on the wrong side. You can ignore this all you like but it doesn't prevent you from being completely wrong.
(http://s31.postimg.org/xpflu06ob/clock1.jpg)
You have failed to address the elephant in the room which is that while Nevill was walking up the stairs his right side would be facing the bedroom and thus the right side of his face would be facing those inside the bedroom and thus even if the walls did not block the killer from shooting at him the best a shooter could do would be to target his right side and the bullets would travel right to left across his body. This makes your claims totally impossible no matter what you say.
I disagree with the above illustrations.
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Scip I disagree with your illustrations.
My brother won the art awards in school, not me. You are lucky I stuck a skull on top of my stick man on the stairs.
As poor as they look you can understand the concept and that is what matters not how nice the drawings look.
It is easy to see the right side faces the bedroom while walking up the stairs. Since Nevill was shot from the left not the right that rules out the possibility of being shot walking up the stairs from the bedroom. If you want to argue he was shot in the face on the stairs you have to put the killer near Sheila's door. As bad as they may be they get this and the other points I was making across.
Drawings of this kind of campiness is my MO I am known for stick figures. Many people find it amusing...
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A reminder to all posters. We do not tolerate aggressively themed posts and/or the use of inflammatory language. A number of posts have been edited this morning and the posters concerned have been advised of such by pm with copies sent to Admin.
Please check your posts before posting and find the right balance between asserting your views without becoming overly aggressive.
Thank you for your cooperation.
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A speculative view from the main bedroom looking towards the landing, based on the scaled plans of WHF. The perspective of the door looks awry but that's dependent on the field of view setting of the human eye and is the best achievable with the CAD program used. What is not shown are obstacles (such as a chair, clothing and shoes on the floor to the right, and June's body if she was already lying in the doorway) which the shooter had to avoid walking into or stepping on whilst aiming at someone coming upstairs... https://vimeo.com/163370051 (https://vimeo.com/163370051)
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A speculative view from the main bedroom looking towards the landing, based on the scaled plans of WHF. The perspective of the door looks awry but that's dependent on the field of view setting of the human eye and is the best achievable with the CAD program used. What is not shown are obstacles (such as a chair, clothing and shoes on the floor to the right, and June's body if she was already lying in the doorway) which the shooter had to avoid walking into or stepping on whilst aiming at someone coming upstairs... https://vimeo.com/163370051 (https://vimeo.com/163370051)
The following photo shows the entrance. I can see June's hand in the right hand corner. I don't know what the black image is? Maybe a shadow? The marker pointing to spent bullet DRH/5.
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The following photo shows the entrance. I can see June's hand in the right hand corner. I don't know what the black image is? Maybe a shadow? The marker pointing to spent bullet DRH/5.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920)
It's been mentioned before... just a black garment such as a cardigan or long stockings, also seen in the photo of June which you probably have in your WHF picture file. I don't like to keep posting it here.
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The following photo shows the entrance. I can see June's hand in the right hand corner. I don't know what the black image is? Maybe a shadow? The marker pointing to spent bullet DRH/5.
It never ceases to amaze what one finds even after all this time. It was claimed elsewhere that the rifle never moved from that position yet it is clear from studying before and after photos that the rifle leaning against the window photo was taken long after the crimescene was disturbed with clothing laid out over adjacent chairs. The photograph depicting the rifle clearly was taken long after the body was discovered.
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The following photo shows the entrance. I can see June's hand in the right hand corner. I don't know what the black image is? Maybe a shadow? The marker pointing to spent bullet DRH/5.
That photo was taken from the bottom stairs the stairs are facing the doorway. When standing on the stairs that are adjacent to the bedroom wall you don't have that sort of view inside.
In the meantime the right side is facing the master bedroom. It is impossible to be inside the master bedroom and shoot the left side of someone who is on the stairs adjacent to the bedroom wall.
Myster's illustration is not exact but does show how you can' even see the stairs at all unless in the part of the room where the chair is and how close or far away from the door will determine how much you can see. The location on the stair also matters the further to the wall the less that will be visible no matter how far back someone is standing.
The 4 left wounds Nevill suffered are impossible to achieve while he was on the stairs adjacent to the bedroom wall and the shooter was in the master bedroom.
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It never ceases to amaze what one finds even after all this time. It was claimed elsewhere that the rifle never moved from that position yet it is clear from studying before and after photos that the rifle leaning against the window photo was taken long after the crimescene was disturbed with clothing laid out over adjacent chairs. The photograph depicting the rifle clearly was taken long after the body was discovered.
I've never really understood the argument about the rifle at the window? Is MT claiming based on the order of the crime scene photos the rifle was moved before PC Bird took photos?
I'm assuming police firearms look very different?
Is there also another photo showing the rifle at the window in the box room which adjoins the master bedroom? Or am I getting confused?
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Getting confused is a way of life for you... darlin'!
No, there's no photo of a rifle or any other weapon in the Boxroom that anyone is aware of... that's another myth.
Not an Anschutz 525 among them... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom)
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I've never really understood the argument about the rifle at the window? Is MT claiming based on the order of the crime scene photos the rifle was moved before PC Bird took photos?
I'm assuming police firearms look very different?
Is there also another photo showing the rifle at the window in the box room which adjoins the master bedroom? Or am I getting confused?
Assuming for a moment what Mike claims about the negative numbers is valid, he merely points out the obvious. PC Bird photographed the bedroom depicting the rifle leaning against the window before photographing Sheila with the rifle lying on top of her. All this does is confirm that the rifle was moved and then moved again before being repositioned on Sheila body.
For their part firearms officers confirmed that they removed the rifle initially to make it safe and then again to allow the doctor to examine the deceased. No mystery, no conspiracy, simply common sense!
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It is understandable that members can become frustrated when they fail to get their arguments across but there is no need to be condescending or abusive when responding to others.
Please keep comments constructive and friendly. TY
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I've never really understood the argument about the rifle at the window? Is MT claiming based on the order of the crime scene photos the rifle was moved before PC Bird took photos?
I'm assuming police firearms look very different?
Is there also another photo showing the rifle at the window in the box room which adjoins the master bedroom? Or am I getting confused?
There are multiple claims not simply one. 1 is that Jeapes saw the murder weapon in the window and that it was subsequently grabbed by Sheila to shoot herself. Another is that it was grabbed by police and used to shoot Sheila and put it by the window again then later moved it near her body. Yet another is that it was a different rifle than the Anschutz but also used in the murders. He has claimed that Anthony's rifle was also used so 2 rifles from WHF plus police weapons used on top of it. The argument changes constantly which makes it hard to comprehend.
They don't see confusion as a problem they like confusion thinking that people will just give up trying to understand and just support them and accept whatever they claim.
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From what I have read and watched from Mike and the OS, it seems they are saying the police shot Sheila. Although Mike has also said Sheila shot herself.
Either way, Sheila landed on the bed. The crime scene photographer then took pictures of Sheila on the bed and of the rifle by the window.
The police then moved Sheila from the bed to the floor. Mike at first said this was because they were looking for a gun on the bed. He later said the police were looking for rifle cartridges. Mike said about 18 months ago he has a picture of Sheila on the bed, which were with his legal advisors.
Once Sheila was on the floor the police decided to put the rifle by the window across her. Then take pictures and submit them as the official crime scene pictures. This was because for some reason they did not want to admit they shot Sheila. Although Mike has previously said she shot herself.
The police carelessly did not destroy the pictures of the rifle by the window, or the picture of Sheila on the bed. The photo of the rifle by the window is available for the public. The photo of Sheila on the bed has yet to be released.
The police were successful in creating a murder/suicide crime scene. But then changed their minds a month later and decided to frame Bamber.