UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on April 29, 2016, 09:09:04 AM
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Portuguese minister reveals: We didn’t charge Maddie’s parents out of compassion
(http://i.imgur.com/N1qbjpO.jpg?2)
By Jerry Lawton
29 April 2016
MADELEINE McCann’s parents escaped prosecution for leaving her in their holiday flat because of “compassion” from prosecutors.
(http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/438000/620x/Rui-Pereira-and-Maddie-McCann-511619.jpg)
Portuguese law chiefs also thought Brits had “peculiar customs” which allowed them to dine and drink without their children.
The revelations came from Rui Pereira, who was Portugal’s minister of internal affairs – the equivalent of the UK’s Home Secretary.
He told a Portuguese TV show it was an error not to make GP mum Kate, 48, and heart doctor dad Gerry, 47, suspects – or arguidos – for “abandonment”.
They left Madeleine, three, and her younger twin siblings in the apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz while they dined with pals in a nearby tapas bar on May 3, 2007.
Madeleine vanished that night and has not been seen since.
Mr Pereira told Portuguese channel CMTV: “The error was not constituting the parents as arguidos for the crime of abandonment.
"At the beginning there was an extraordinary and ridiculous theory that said the English have very peculiar cultural customs.
“And therefore it was natural for them to leave the two-year-old twin siblings and the other three-year-old child alone in a bedroom for the parents to go out a few hundred metres away to socialise with their friends.’’
Mr Pereira revealed a charge was given some thought at the time. But he claimed the Portuguese authorities had an inferiority complex regarding foreigners.
They believed the English “truly have very specific cultural customs and it was natural to dine and drink”. There was also “compassion” from the investigators towards the parents.
Former police inspector Moita Flores, below, previously told the same TV show he believed the couple would have been accused of abandonment if they had been Portuguese.
He said: “Have no doubts. If this had involved a Portuguese child our public ministry would have immediately set off measures which are in place to protect children.
“In our culture this kind of behaviour would have not been tolerated as reasonable. I am not even sure it is tolerated under Anglo-Saxon cultural values.’’
The McCanns, from Rothley, Leics, are aware they could have been jailed if found guilty of abandonment.
But spokesman Clarence Mitchell has said they vigorously denied neglecting Madeleine.
A close friend said: “They were well aware that they could be charged with child neglect.
“They’d have fought tooth and nail. In legal terms Kate and Gerry were doing everything well within the bounds of respectable parenting.
“A court would have to show they had wilfully neglected their daughter and they did not.’’
The Metropolitan Police believe Madeleine was abducted after disturbing a burglar.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511619/Portuguese-minister-reveals-charge-Maddie-McCann-parents-compassion-abandonment-prosecutor
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The article says it all.
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The article says it all.
that it does and it sound s like the portugal police do not appove of the mcanns behaviour even now
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that it does and it sound s like the portugal police do not appove of the mcanns behaviour even now
It wouldn't just be the police Carly.
The Portuguese and many other people around the world will never understand why the mccanns did what they did.
When you make the decision to have children, it is your responsibility to do your best to take care of them to the best of your ability.
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It wouldn't just be the police Carly.
The Portuguese and many other people around the world will never understand why the mccanns did what they did.
When you make the decision to have children, it is your responsibility to do your best to take care of them to the best of your ability.
even animal parents have that instict stephen
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even animal parents have that instict stephen
Some might wonder who the animals are.
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Some might wonder who the animals are.
Oh dear, now you are getting nasty again.
Again totally uncalled for behaviour.
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Oh dear, now you are getting nasty again.
Again totally uncalled for behaviour.
you knew exactly what i mean didnt yo i meant even animals have the nurture instict for their young ie when kittens are born a mother cat licks them until they are dry and clean etc its called parental instinct
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Oh dear, now you are getting nasty again.
Again totally uncalled for behaviour.
People who steal or harm children are nasty animals. Wherein lies their instincts?
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even animal parents have that instict stephen
Infanticide is a powerful tool in ensuring the survival of a species, researchers are increasingly finding.
It sounds like the cruellest thing of all - mothers and fathers brutally killing their animal offspring.
But for many animal infants, the greatest threat to their survival they face is from their own kind.
"It's not like a predation event, which is quiet," says lion expert Professor Craig Packer.
"During infanticide, it's growling and violent, and really pretty disturbing," he says, describing how adult lions kill cubs. "They bite them on the back of the head, and neck, crushing their abdomens."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/18035811
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People who steal or harm children are nasty animals. Wherein lies their instincts?
Have you never made a nasty personal comment on this forum Eleanor ?
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Portuguese minister reveals: We didn’t charge Maddie’s parents out of compassion
MADELEINE McCann’s parents escaped prosecution for leaving her in their holiday flat because of “compassion” from prosecutors.
By Jerry Lawton / Published 29th April 2016
Rui Pereira and Maddie McCann PA
GRIEF: ‘Compassion’ stopped the McCanns facing ‘abandonment’ charge
Portuguese law chiefs also thought Brits had “peculiar customs” which allowed them to dine and drink without their children.
The revelations came from Rui Pereira, who was Portugal’s minister of internal affairs – the equivalent of the UK’s Home Secretary.
He told a Portuguese TV show it was an error not to make GP mum Kate, 48, and heart doctor dad Gerry, 47, suspects – or arguidos – for “abandonment”.
REVEALED: Mr Pereira revealed a charge was given some thought at the time
They left Madeleine, three, and her younger twin siblings in the apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz while they dined with pals in a nearby tapas bar on May 3, 2007.
Madeleine vanished that night and has not been seen since.
“The error was not constituting the parents as arguidos for the crime of abandonment”
Rui Pereira
Mr Pereira told Portuguese channel CMTV: “The error was not constituting the parents as arguidos for the crime of abandonment.
"At the beginning there was an extraordinary and ridiculous theory that said the English have very peculiar cultural customs.
“And therefore it was natural for them to leave the two-year-old twin siblings and the other three-year-old child alone in a bedroom for the parents to go out a few hundred metres away to socialise with their friends.’’
Mr Pereira revealed a charge was given some thought at the time. But he claimed the Portuguese authorities had an inferiority complex regarding foreigners.
They believed the English “truly have very specific cultural customs and it was natural to dine and drink”. There was also “compassion” from the investigators towards the parents.
Former police inspector Moita Flores, below, told the TV show he believed the couple would have been accused of abandonment if they had been Portuguese.
He said: “Have no doubts. If this had involved a Portuguese child our public ministry would have immediately set off measures which are in place to protect children.
“In our culture this kind of behaviour would have not been tolerated as reasonable. I am not even sure it is tolerated under Anglo-Saxon cultural values.’’
The McCanns, from Rothley, Leics, are aware they could have been jailed if found guilty of abandonment.
Mccanns GETTY
COMPASSION: Spokesman Clarence Mitchell has said they vigorously denied neglecting Madeleine
But spokesman Clarence Mitchell has said they vigorously denied neglecting Madeleine.
A close friend said: “They were well aware that they could be charged with child neglect.
“They’d have fought tooth and nail. In legal terms Kate and Gerry were doing everything well within the bounds of respectable parenting.
“A court would have to show they had wilfully neglected their daughter and they did not.’’
The Metropolitan Police believe Madeleine was abducted after disturbing a burglar.
That is the second "off piste" article by The Star in a week. They seem to be taking advantage of changes to defamation law.
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Have you never made a nasty personal comment on this forum Eleanor ?
Yes, I have. And for which I apologise.
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IIRC They didn't proffer any charges as there was "no intent" to neglect.
I realize just why I don't post in here often it is like Groundhog Day.
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IIRC They didn't proffer any charges as there was "no intent" to neglect.
I realize just why I don't post in here often it is like Groundhog Day.
Leaving your children repeatedly in an unlocked apartment is intent.
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Leaving your children repeatedly in an unlocked apartment is intent.
Take it up with the PT General Attorney then.
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Take it up with the PT General Attorney then.
Have you read today's article ?
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Have you read today's article ?
Do you believe everything you read?
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Do you believe everything you read?
Are you kidding ?
Have you read it ?
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Leaving your children repeatedly in an unlocked apartment is intent.
No it is not.
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No it is not.
Are you for real ?
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Are you for real ?
Oh, indeed I am. It's you I worry about.
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Why allow hotel resorts in Portugal to have a listening service then if it's illegal?
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Oh, indeed I am. It's you I worry about.
There is nothing for you to worry about.
It's the mccanns with major problems now, and you know it.
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she left her kids alone too from memory that may bias her opinion??
Yes, I did, Carly. But everybody knows that, because I said so, and because you repeat it. Frequently.
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There is nothing for you to worry about.
It's the mccanns with major problems now, and you know it.
Yes. Their daughter is still missing.
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Yes. Their daughter is still missing.
I think I know that.
However, I wasn't referring to her being missing.
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No it is not.
Quite right. Its more like indifference.
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Why allow hotel resorts in Portugal to have a listening service then if it's illegal?
The MW PDL resort never had a listening service.
None of the 9 adults had ever used an MW listening service anywhere in the world.
A few of them had observed other parents using one at a completely different company's resort in Greece 2006.
The illusion that they had used an MW listening service in Greece was conjured up by the early PR people.
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Infanticide is a powerful tool in ensuring the survival of a species, researchers are increasingly finding.
It sounds like the cruellest thing of all - mothers and fathers brutally killing their animal offspring.
But for many animal infants, the greatest threat to their survival they face is from their own kind.
"It's not like a predation event, which is quiet," says lion expert Professor Craig Packer.
"During infanticide, it's growling and violent, and really pretty disturbing," he says, describing how adult lions kill cubs. "They bite them on the back of the head, and neck, crushing their abdomens."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/18035811
Most animals are killing babies for a very good reason. Adult male lions kill all the cubs when they take over a pride because the cubs aren't theirs. The cubs were fathered by the previous male or males. They kill them so the females will come on heat and have the new male's cubs. Dominant female meerkats kill other female's babies because only the dominant female is allowed to breed.
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Why allow hotel resorts in Portugal to have a listening service then if it's illegal?
I'd be surprised if many places are offering it now.
Look what happened to Madeleine and her parents/group were checking more than any Listening Service I'd bet.
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I'd be surprised if many places are offering it now.
Look what happened to Madeleine and her parents/group were checking more than any Listening Service I'd bet.
What did happen to Madeleine? I thought that was unknown as yet. According to their timeline every five minutes one of the group was either coming or going.
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(snip) her parents/group were checking more than any Listening Service I'd bet.
You'd lose that bet Ben.
MW listening services had checks every 15 minutes, and no alcohol on the job.
In contrast the amateur checkers in PDL left the child unchecked for about 45 minutes (source available) one night because they moved into to the bar after the meal .
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Not true. MW listening services had checks every 15 minutes, and no alcohol on the job.
In contrast the amateur checkers in PDL left the child unchecked for about 45 minutes (source available) one night because they moved into to the bar after the meal .
and now the Mirror has joined the fray.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reason-maddie-mccanns-parents-were-7859925
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They're all at it now - clearly a competition who can come up with the most outrageous story @)(++(*
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They're all at it now - clearly a competition who can come up with the most outrageous story @)(++(*
Continuing the Sesame Street simile featuring today's new word:
abandonment
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I'd be surprised if many places are offering it now.
Look what happened to Madeleine and her parents/group were checking more than any Listening Service I'd bet.
Look at what? Was it a fault of a listening service?
Do tell
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7115564/Revealed-The-reason-Kate-and-Gerry-werent-charged-over-Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance.html
The suns version is interesting. It seems that Kate and Gerry are going down the burglar route...
Madeleine’s former GP mum Kate, 48, and heart doctor dad Gerry, 47, believe Madeleine was snatched in a bungled burglary.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7115564/Revealed-The-reason-Kate-and-Gerry-werent-charged-over-Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance.html
The suns version is interesting. It seems that Kate and Gerry are going down the burglar route...
One might think the mccanns are not getting the message.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/7115564/Revealed-The-reason-Kate-and-Gerry-werent-charged-over-Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance.html
The suns version is interesting. It seems that Kate and Gerry are going down the burglar route...
To think they were once so convinced it was a paedophile gang................... &%+((£
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Continuing the Sesame Street simile featuring today's new word:
abandonment
Indeed and that word if that action of abandonment was proved-carries a jail term! I was bemused and then annoyed that these pair let it be known that it is within our culture to behave like this with our children! "like sitting in your garden"? NO Gerry you were not sitting in your garden with children in sight not even the windows or doors were in your sight! in fact you could barely see the building!
snip...
Reason why Maddie McCann's parents were not made suspects over abandonment is revealed
12:45, 29 Apr 2016
Updated 08:38, 30 Apr 2016
By Joshua Nevett
Detectives looking into the disappearance decided not to charge Kate, 48 and 47-year-old Gerry over abandonment because of 'peculiar customs'
The parents of missing Madeleine McCann were not made suspects for abandoning their daughter because law bosses thought it was "natural" for English parents to leave their children alone.
snip
I started a thread about this very subject. It was this that invoked my suspicion of them.
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Indeed and that word if that action of abandonment was proved-carries a jail term! I was bemused and then annoyed that these pair let it be known that it is within our culture to behave like this with our children! "like sitting in your garden"? NO Gerry you were not sitting in your garden with children in sight not even the windows or doors were in your sight! in fact you could barely see the building!
snip...
Reason why Maddie McCann's parents were not made suspects over abandonment is revealed
12:45, 29 Apr 2016
Updated 08:38, 30 Apr 2016
By Joshua Nevett
Detectives looking into the disappearance decided not to charge Kate, 48 and 47-year-old Gerry over abandonment because of 'peculiar customs'
The parents of missing Madeleine McCann were not made suspects for abandoning their daughter because law bosses thought it was "natural" for English parents to leave their children alone.
snip
I started a thread about this very subject. It was this that invoked my suspicion of them.
One clear point.
There is nothing even vaguely 'natural' about leaving your children exposed to unnecessary dangers.
What the article did reveal, was that the Portuguese were afraid to prosecute the Mccanns, even though they would have done so to any Portuguese National doing the same.
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The MW PDL resort never had a listening service.
None of the 9 adults had ever used an MW listening service anywhere in the world.
A few of them had observed other parents using one at a completely different company's resort in Greece 2006.
The illusion that they had used an MW listening service in Greece was conjured up by the early PR people.
I think you may be wrong about that Pegasus.
QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.
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One clear point.
There is nothing even vaguely 'natural' about leaving your children exposed to unnecessary dangers.
What the article did reveal, was that the Portuguese were afraid to prosecute the Mccanns, even though they would have done so to any Portuguese National doing the same.
Indeed, no wonder they are disliked by many in Portugual and the same over here If they were not doctors or protected in some way, they would have most certainly have been investigated by the social services, shame on us for letting little Maddie down.
Mitchels spin on it is fun though eh? reasonable parenting....
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Indeed, no wonder they are disliked by many in Portugual and the same over here If they were not doctors or protected in some way, they would have most certainly have been investigated by the social services, shame on us for letting little Maddie down.
Mitchels spin on it is fun though eh? reasonable parenting....
It would be a joke, but for the circumstances.
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To think they were once so convinced it was a paedophile gang................... &%+((£
It could have been a multi disciplinary project yes? no?
All of them prowling around...
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If leaving your children asleep and making checks on them is a crime in PT - then why weren't the other members of the group accused of 'abandonment?
Their children went home safe and sound - and so the 'compassion' argument would not apply.
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If leaving your children asleep and making checks on them is a crime in PT - then why weren't the other members of the group accused of 'abandonment?
Their children went home safe and sound - and so the 'compassion' argument would not apply.
All doing the same should have been arrested.
Abandonment. Pure and simple.
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If leaving your children asleep and making checks on them is a crime in PT - then why weren't the other members of the group accused of 'abandonment?
Their children went home safe and sound - and so the 'compassion' argument would not apply.
We don't know if they went home safe and sound have you asked those children? are the twins happy they were left alone night after night?
Oh but it would, 'THEY' as a group should have been charged, they stuck together to create a time line didn't they? well a couple of timelines, and one came up with an abductor ,the other saw ... curtains whooshing. The missing child's parents were shown compassion BECAUSE the child was missing, and BECAUSE they thought this was a cultural thing...AND DON'T FORGET the political input and the media and the PR gurus. The PJ could have felt overwhelmed and undermined. Don't forget the venemous attacts by the family,about the PJ were instant!
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...
The revelations came from Rui Pereira, who was Portugal’s minister of internal affairs – the equivalent of the UK’s Home Secretary.
He told a Portuguese TV show it was an error not to make GP mum Kate, 48, and heart doctor dad Gerry, 47, suspects – or arguidos – for “abandonment”.
They left Madeleine, three, and her younger twin siblings in the apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz while they dined with pals in a nearby tapas bar on May 3, 2007.
Madeleine vanished that night and has not been seen since.
Mr Pereira told Portuguese channel CMTV: “The error was not constituting the parents as arguidos for the crime of abandonment.
"At the beginning there was an extraordinary and ridiculous theory that said the English have very peculiar cultural customs.
“And therefore it was natural for them to leave the two-year-old twin siblings and the other three-year-old child alone in a bedroom for the parents to go out a few hundred metres away to socialise with their friends.’’
Mr Pereira revealed a charge was given some thought at the time. But he claimed the Portuguese authorities had an inferiority complex regarding foreigners.
They believed the English “truly have very specific cultural customs and it was natural to dine and drink”. There was also “compassion” from the investigators towards the parents.
Former police inspector Moita Flores, below, previously told the same TV show he believed the couple would have been accused of abandonment if they had been Portuguese.
He said: “Have no doubts. If this had involved a Portuguese child our public ministry would have immediately set off measures which are in place to protect children.
“In our culture this kind of behaviour would have not been tolerated as reasonable. I am not even sure it is tolerated under Anglo-Saxon cultural values.’’
...
“A court would have to show they had wilfully neglected their daughter and they did not.’’
...
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511619/Portuguese-minister-reveals-charge-Maddie-McCann-parents-compassion-abandonment-prosecutor
The core ideas in this report are nonsense.
The idea that Portuguese law alters according to the perceived cultural norms of foreigners is daft. The idea that there is one law for the English and another for the Portuguese is ridiculous. The archiving report makes no mention of such interpretations or deciding to let the McCanns off due to sympathy. It concluded that there was no wilful neglect and therefore nothing to charge the McCanns with.
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All doing the same should have been arrested.
Abandonment. Pure and simple.
There has to be an intention to abandon for arrests to be made. According to the PT AG there was none.
Quote from Final Report:
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
unquote
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There has to be an intention to abandon for arrests to be made. According to the PT AG there was none.
Quote from Final Report:
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
unquote
This was in a report, so it wasn't mentioned,doesn't make it untrue, just that it wasn't mentioned. Also, the facts would have to be established in a court of LAW.
A court would establish if the parents were acting responsibly or not and as a child was 'abducted by paedophiles' There would be a strong argument to suggest the parents did indeed put their children in danger by
1. leaving them alone night after night
2 leaving a door unlocked!
3 not doing physical checks or having a ridgid timeline to do said checks.
4 having a child who has 'disappeared' is evidence!
In a court OF LAW this would be blown right out of the water! AND Tapas team know all this! Why else would they refuse to fo back for a reconstruction?
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The core ideas in this report are nonsense.
The idea that Portuguese law alters according to the perceived cultural norms of foreigners is daft. The idea that there is one law for the English and another for the Portuguese is ridiculous. The archiving report makes no mention of such interpretations or deciding to let the McCanns off due to sympathy. It concluded that there was no wilful neglect and therefore nothing to charge the McCanns with.
and what of political pressure not to charge the mccanns ?
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There has to be an intention to abandon for arrests to be made. According to the PT AG there was none.
Quote from Final Report:
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
unquote
They left their children several nights in a row in an unlocked apartment, which was locked during the day.
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This was in a report, so it wasn't mentioned,doesn't make it untrue, just that it wasn't mentioned. Also, the facts would have to be established in a court of LAW.
A court would establish if the parents were acting responsibly or not and as a child was 'abducted by paedophiles' There would be a strong argument to suggest the parents did indeed put their children in danger by
1. leaving them alone night after night
2 leaving a door unlocked!
3 not doing physical checks or having a ridgid timeline to do said checks.
4 having a child who has 'disappeared' is evidence!
In a court OF LAW this would be blown right out of the water! AND Tapas team know all this! Why else would they refuse to fo back for a reconstruction?
In a court of law the lot of them would be in shit creek at the very least, and you are right the prospect of a reconstruction sent shivers down their spines thats why they hid behind lawyers and the mccanns asked people to think about what they had already gone through and that it was a horrible idea to do a reconstruction...lots of potential stones unturned there
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This was in a report, so it wasn't mentioned,doesn't make it untrue, just that it wasn't mentioned. Also, the facts would have to be established in a court of LAW.
A court would establish if the parents were acting responsibly or not and as a child was 'abducted by paedophiles' There would be a strong argument to suggest the parents did indeed put their children in danger by
1. leaving them alone night after night
2 leaving a door unlocked!
3 not doing physical checks or having a ridgid timeline to do said checks.
4 having a child who has 'disappeared' is evidence!
In a court OF LAW this would be blown right out of the water! AND Tapas team know all this! Why else would they refuse to fo back for a reconstruction?
Step 1. Police decide if there is enough evidence to charge. Here they decided there was not enough evidence to charge. Step 2. Someone above them (Attorney General?) who has nothing to do with the police, decides whether to accept this report or reject it. It got accepted.
If the police decide a case cannot be made, and the bod who would be prosecuting agrees with this, there is no way it gets to court.
So speculation about what might or might not have happened in a court case is merely speculation.
The police could have written a different final report, but they didn't. The bod deciding to accept or reject could have rejected, but the fact is it was accepted.
To say that 2 separate Portuguese entities were pressured to obtain this outcome goes into my folder of conspiracy theories. IMO of course.
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In a court of law the lot of them would be in shit creek at the very least, and you are right the prospect of a reconstruction sent shivers down their spines thats why they hid behind lawyers and the mccanns asked people to think about what they had already gone through and that it was a horrible idea to do a reconstruction...lots of potential stones unturned there
I think they did not want to return because they did not trust the PJ....they probably knew all about the cipriano case by then
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and what of political pressure not to charge the mccanns ?
I have no idea what happened at a diplomatic level, with few exceptions.
Once made arguidos, the diplomats appear to me to have backed off from the McCanns. I don't see early support influencing the archiving process per se.
It could be that diplomatic pressure applied before the McCanns were made arguidos influenced Portuguese thoughts about what the goal was i.e. a very minor charge of neglect or abandonment, an interim charge of disposal of a body, or perhaps even something more serious.
I would need to read the McCann arguido interviews again to be sure. But from memory, it did not look like the PJ was interested in abandonment/neglect.
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and what of political pressure not to charge the mccanns ?
what political pressure...you are quoting opinion as fact
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Step 1. Police decide if there is enough evidence to charge. Here they decided there was not enough evidence to charge. Step 2. Someone above them (Attorney General?) who has nothing to do with the police, decides whether to accept this report or reject it. It got accepted.
If the police decide a case cannot be made, and the bod who would be prosecuting agrees with this, there is no way it gets to court.
So speculation about what might or might not have happened in a court case is merely speculation.
The police could have written a different final report, but they didn't. The bod deciding to accept or reject could have rejected, but the fact is it was accepted.
To say that 2 separate Portuguese entities were pressured to obtain this outcome goes into my folder of conspiracy theories. IMO of course.
We have already be told this is a report and not set in stone about innocence or guilt about abandonment, The reasons have already been given as to why this was not done by those who knew better on the ground. Their WAS enough evidence to have charged them with abandonment. The Tapas group were very much aware of this because in early statements we got this from Gerry "It was like sitting in your garden". I will suggest that the PJ were undermined and overwhelmed by the whole bloody circus the McCanns created in the beginning.
As far as speculation is concerned, it is a viable, and reasonable argument to suggest a court of LAW should be the place for deciding IF the tapas were guilty of abandonment or not. Saying it in a report is not credible to establish this.
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We have already be told this is a report and not set in stone about innocence or guilt about abandonment, The reasons have already been given as to why this was not done by those who knew better on the ground. Their WAS enough evidence to have charged them with abandonment. The Tapas group were very much aware of this because in early statements we got this from Gerry "It was like sitting in your garden". I will suggest that the PJ were undermined and overwhelmed by the whole bloody circus the McCanns created in the beginning.
As far as speculation is concerned, it is a viable, and reasonable argument to suggest a court of LAW should be the place for deciding IF the tapas were guilty of abandonment or not. Saying it in a report is not credible to establish this.
I take it if you were 'involved' in a crime, the police investigated and found insufficient evidence to charge you, the prosecution service agreed there was insufficient evidence to take you to court, that you should be dragged into court anyway.
I prefer the current system.
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I take it if you were 'involved' in a crime, the police investigated and found insufficient evidence to charge you, the prosecution service agreed there was insufficient evidence to take you to court, that you should be dragged into court anyway.
I prefer the current system.
I also prefer that system, when it works ! however, I am making the argument, and commenting on: that there were reasons other than "no evidence" (as there clearly is plenty of evidence of abandonment). It has been mentioned that there were other reasons for not charging the Tapas with abandonment, many mentioned.
The other argument is would this no evidence mantra stand up in a court of law I would suggest not. And I have given reasons for my belief in previous posts.
Many other people are questioning why they were not charged with abandonment, or that this was not investigated properly to show evidence. I blame the circus and the 'victim status' of the parents. There is evidence that they failed to protect their daughter, and facilitated her disappearance by not being there,the risk assessment of what they did was huge! a temporary abandonment per say could lead to all sorts of harm- one of them being worst case scenario child being abducted? by Paedophiles?
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what political pressure...you are quoting opinion as fact
At the beginning there were efforts made, by a lawyer who was paid to fly out there, to counter any potential abandonment charge.
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They left their children several nights in a row in an unlocked apartment, which was locked during the day.
Their 'intention' in doing that was so that they could check on the children more quickly than having to go the long way round. There is no other intention re the unlocked door. That is evidence in itself that it was their intention to return to 5a to make regular checks. The fact that they did make regular checks was given by the AG as one reason why their actions did not constitute abandonment.
If they had arrested the McCanns and their friends, they would have to explain why they were not arresting every other holidaymaker in Portugal who was using the same method of childcare - or who used baby alarms to do the same on a nightly basis when they went to dinner.
IMO
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it seems there has to be intent...the Mccanns did not intend for Maddie to be harmed...they thought it was safe...they were wrong
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it seems there has to be intent...the Mccanns did not intend for Maddie to be harmed...they thought it was safe...they were wrong
Isn't the abandonment issue the reason a lawyer was flown out there?
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I take it if you were 'involved' in a crime, the police investigated and found insufficient evidence to charge you, the prosecution service agreed there was insufficient evidence to take you to court, that you should be dragged into court anyway.
I prefer the current system.
Do we know that the both the police and prosecution service found insufficient evidence?
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This is the first time I can recall the Portuguese authorities speaking out on the record. First the Appeal Court slapped the McCann's hands, now the neglect is being discussed.
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Do we know that the both the police and prosecution service found insufficient evidence?
Archiving report, authored by the police, stated no evidence to prosecute.
To actually archive the case, it needs the approval of someone (not certain who) outside of the police force to agree to the report that the investigation should stop.
Two separate branches of the judicial system.
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This is the first time I can recall the Portuguese authorities speaking out on the record. First the Appeal Court slapped the McCann's hands, now the neglect is being discussed.
Oh dear, the can of worms is truly being opened now. This will surely finish the Portuguese cooperation once and for all.
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They left their children several nights in a row in an unlocked apartment, which was locked during the day.
They were gone for longer than half an hour during the day weren't they? Who would know the patio doors were open, if they hadn't been watched?
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They were gone for longer than half an hour during the day weren't they? Who would know the patio doors were open, if they hadn't been watched?
According to Fiona it was left open so Madeleine could exit and find her parents, however unbelievably stupid that sounds.
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They were gone for longer than half an hour during the day weren't they? Who would know the patio doors were open, if they hadn't been watched?
Was it burgled during daytime ?
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Was it burgled during daytime ?
I don't believe they went in through the patio doors, there was too many people up and down there, I think they used the front door.
People were burgled during the daytime.
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I don't believe they went in through the patio doors, there was too many people up and down there, I think they used the front door.
People were burgled during the daytime.
Not in that apartment.
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Not in that apartment.
In that holiday resort though.
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In that holiday resort though.
And Mrs Fenns apartment directly above The Mccanns was daytime burgled
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No one burgled at night in that resort...so...erm wrll, work it out
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And Mrs Fenns apartment directly above The Mccanns was daytime burgled
Who said that? The ethical upstanding UK press?
She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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According to Fiona it was left open so Madeleine could exit and find her parents, however unbelievably stupid that sounds.
However it was impossible for Madeleine to have left the apartment herself...I don't understand that at all
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However it was impossible for Madeleine to have left the apartment herself...I don't understand that at all
Indeed. The number of contradictory statements is quite marked.
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No one burgled at night in that resort...so...erm wrll, work it out
5L was burgled while the occupants were all out having an evening meal at a restaurant.
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5L was burgled while the occupants were all out having an evening meal at a restaurant.
Maybe, but the norm was daytime. The point under discussion was whether it was OK to leave the back doors open at night. Some say it was, others disagree.Fear of robbery should not have been the only concern here.
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Maybe, but the norm was daytime. (snip)
5L burglary was definitely (not maybe) while the occupants were out for dinner.
How can you claim that "the norm was daytime" Merc?
Which apartment are you claiming was burgled in daytime?
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5L burglary was definitely (not maybe) while the occupants were out for dinner.
How can you claim that "the norm was daytime" Merc?
Which apartment are you claiming was burgled in daytime?
I read it somewhere, not personally claiming it, links to follow
Eta, sorry, cant find the link right now where it was said that many holdaymakers flats were broken into during the daytime as they were out at the beach etc etc
Makes sense....burglaring whilst its known occupants are probably out
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(snip) The point under discussion was whether it was OK to leave the back doors open at night. Some say it was, others disagree.Fear of robbery should not have been the only concern here.
Why apparently intelligent professionals would decide to deliberately to leave the lounge sliding door unlocked is difficult to comprehend , given that there was a safety notice on the lounge door warning guests to never allow children unsupervised access to the balcony because of the danger of climbing over a railing and falling.
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Why apparently intelligent professionals would decide to deliberately to leave the lounge sliding door unlocked is difficult to comprehend , given that there was a safety notice on the lounge door warning guests to never allow children unsupervised access to the balcony because of the danger of climbing over a railing and falling.
Not a question for me but for those who condone (repeated) lapse child security, and your example not being the only danger to unattended 2 and 3 year olds
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Not a question for me but for those who condone (repeated) lapse child security, and your example not being the only danger to unattended 2 and 3 year olds
You forgot to mention the perps.
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You forgot to mention the perps.
Not a point in the discussion on general child safety
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Not a point in the discussion on general child safety
Hmmm ... so why do you think home invasions are not a point for discussion.
I can see why prior to 2007 it wouldn't have been a great worry for parents ... but post 2007 I think it is and is worth discussing in the context of the alleged reasoning behind the non-prosecution of the McCanns.
What a shame the 'compassion' was so directional and fleeting.
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Hmmm ... so why do you think home invasions are not a point for discussion.
I never said they weren't. I was discussing with Pegasus the serious and dangerous lapses in the Mccann child care
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This sticker was on the lounge door and was seen by both parents "before stepping out"
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/IMG_0582_small.JPG