UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Opal on May 09, 2016, 05:04:35 PM
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A thought came to me last night.
Why was the teddy bear in J & N B's bed? Two adult people do not usually have a teddy bear in bed with them. My conclusion to this is that the teddy bear was one of the twins, or SC's
But the twins were in bed before JB left WHF so could it have been SC's or had she bought it back from the children's bedroom? ( access to twins room from master bedroom)
This in turn made me think that maybe SC was in the bed beside June after the twins where put to bed. This then began to make sense of SC not having any blood on her legs and feet....she was made to get out of the bed to the area she was found. No blood in bedroom from NB !
I started checking out times given that night and I've come to the conclusion that NB was shot downstairs NOT upstairs. My reasons are...
1) JB asks NB to collect last tractor load of rape. This is important because it makes NB's routine later than usual i.e. walking dogs/shower before bed.
2) BW rings farm at around 9.30 pm thinks she hears argument, 3) JB states he doesn't hear phone and left farm at 9.30pm. it is 9.50 pm when he rings JM. My opinion is he left WHF later than 9.30 pm, "just after 9.30 pm" according to neighbour. JB then rings JM 9.50 pm. The timing is important as JB says he has been on the phone to JM for 17 minutes. Time now... 10.07 pm. JB states he watches TV until 11.00 pm, and then goes to bed ( JB tells JM in second phone call he hasn't slept all night) 11.00 pm coincides with NB having finished collecting rape seed ( farm worker saw NB in field at 10 00 pm.) Approx time to collect rape seed given as 20 minutes, tractor then taken to yard, approx time 10 minutes...NB walks dogs as usual and has a shower...approx time ...30 minutes. total time 11.00 pm. If NB went into field at 9.45 pm... as he was still in WHF when JB left.... he would have finished collecting rape seed by 10.05 pm without taking time to put tractor in yard.( notice the similarity in time after phone call from JB to JM) NB then spends 30 minutes walking dogs,and showering. 10.35.00 pm. NB was used to having a cigarette, and gin and tonic before bed. Did JB leave his cottage at 11.00 pm knowing his father would be in the kitchen relaxing at this time. Did NB let JB into the house?! I find it strange that NB was found in the position of the chair he used at the table in WHF. Was there another argument that night in the kitchen?
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The first shooting episode most certainly happened in the master bedroom while Nevill and June were in bed. The spent shell casings associated with 4 of Nevill's injuries were found in the master bedroom. 1 bullet merely grazed Nevill and it was also found in the master bedroom. A full magazine was fired at June and Nevill, the gun was empty and that is why things proceeded to the kitchen. With the gun empty Jeremy fled to reload with Nevill pursuing him or Nevill fled to arm himself with Jeremy in pursuit.
My wife has 5 stuffed animals in our bedroom. It would be quite easy for someone to take one and place it on the bed. It could have been June's and relocated to the bed after the murders for staging purposes or could have belonged to the boys and been relocated there for staging purposes. No one ever publicly answered who the bear belonged to.
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A thought came to me last night.
Why was the teddy bear in J & N B's bed? Two adult people do not usually have a teddy bear in bed with them. My conclusion to this is that the teddy bear was one of the twins, or SC's
But the twins were in bed before JB left WHF so could it have been SC's or had she bought it back from the children's bedroom? ( access to twins room from master bedroom)
This in turn made me think that maybe SC was in the bed beside June after the twins where put to bed. This then began to make sense of SC not having any blood on her legs and feet....she was made to get out of the bed to the area she was found. No blood in bedroom from NB !
I started checking out times given that night and I've come to the conclusion that NB was shot downstairs NOT upstairs. My reasons are...
1) JB asks NB to collect last tractor load of rape. This is important because it makes NB's routine later than usual i.e. walking dogs/shower before bed.
2) BW rings farm at around 9.30 pm thinks she hears argument, 3) JB states he doesn't hear phone and left farm at 9.30pm. it is 9.50 pm when he rings JM. My opinion is he left WHF later than 9.30 pm, "just after 9.30 pm" according to neighbour. JB then rings JM 9.50 pm. The timing is important as JB says he has been on the phone to JM for 17 minutes. Time now... 10.07 pm. JB states he watches TV until 11.00 pm, and then goes to bed ( JB tells JM in second phone call he hasn't slept all night) 11.00 pm coincides with NB having finished collecting rape seed ( farm worker saw NB in field at 10 00 pm.) Approx time to collect rape seed given as 20 minutes, tractor then taken to yard, approx time 10 minutes...NB walks dogs as usual and has a shower...approx time ...30 minutes. total time 11.00 pm. If NB went into field at 9.45 pm... as he was still in WHF when JB left.... he would have finished collecting rape seed by 10.05 pm without taking time to put tractor in yard.( notice the similarity in time after phone call from JB to JM) NB then spends 30 minutes walking dogs,and showering. 10.35.00 pm. NB was used to having a cigarette, and gin and tonic before bed. Did JB leave his cottage at 11.00 pm knowing his father would be in the kitchen relaxing at this time. Did NB let JB into the house?! I find it strange that NB was found in the position of the chair he used at the table in WHF. Was there another argument that night in the kitchen?
This is what I firmly believe, I believe Sheila was sleeping in the main bedroom to be near the twins. However, I believe that Nevill slept in Sheila's room - without starting a war with Scipio (I know you don't think these are Nevill's slippers but lets see what others think), these mens slippers were near the bed in Sheila's room. This also explains why Sheila was in the main bed room when she died and could explain why Nevill's blood is not in the main bedroom but some was found outside Sheila's room - it also explains how Nevill managed to get passed the killer and run downstairs.
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Bamber opened fire in the main bedroom on June and Neville. The bullet casings showing the fully loaded rifle was emptied in one go.
Sheila was shot before or after the twins and after June and Neville had been killed.
Sheila slept in the spare bedroom. If she weirdly wanted to sleep near her two 6 year old sons, she would have slept in their room. Not share a bed in another room with a mother she didn't like. Evicting Neville from his own bed.
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And (without starting another war with Scipio) I firmly believe NB was shot twice on the stairs leading to the main bedroom and twice on the main stairs when NB was facing downwards.
Opal please allow me to share my diagrams with you!
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This is what I firmly believe, I believe Sheila was sleeping in the main bedroom to be near the twins. However, I believe that Nevill slept in Sheila's room - without starting a war with Scipio (I know you don't think these are Nevill's slippers but lets see what others think), these mens slippers were near the bed in Sheila's room. This also explains why Sheila was in the main bed room when she died and could explain why Nevill's blood is not in the main bedroom but some was found outside Sheila's room - it also explains how Nevill managed to get passed the killer and run downstairs.
Whose blood was found outside SC's bedroom? I thought it was inconclusive? It was a very small amount and it is possible Crispy might have put his nose/mouth in some blood and then deposited it on the landing.
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This is what I firmly believe, I believe Sheila was sleeping in the main bedroom to be near the twins. However, I believe that Nevill slept in Sheila's room - without starting a war with Scipio (I know you don't think these are Nevill's slippers but lets see what others think), these mens slippers were near the bed in Sheila's room. This also explains why Sheila was in the main bed room when she died and could explain why Nevill's blood is not in the main bedroom but some was found outside Sheila's room - it also explains how Nevill managed to get passed the killer and run downstairs.
Brilliant Caroline! I umm'd and arr'd about where NB was that night...in SC's bed or downstairs. No blood from NB in the main bedroom. It does make sense with the 'man's slipper' that he was in SC's bedroom. My reasoning about NB being in the kitchen was the fact a pair of trousers were there at the scene of his murder.
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And (without starting another war with Scipio) I firmly believe NB was shot twice on the stairs leading to the main bedroom and twice on the main stairs when NB was facing downwards.
Opal please allow me to share my diagrams with you!
Thanks Holly.....I had seen these photos whilst trying to see where the cartridges were. I've downloaded them now.
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Brilliant Caroline! I umm'd and arr'd about where NB was that night...in SC's bed or downstairs. No blood from NB in the main bedroom. It does make sense with the 'man's slipper' that he was in SC's bedroom. My reasoning about NB being in the kitchen was the fact a pair of trousers were there at the scene of his murder.
The trousers may just have been in an ironing pile or he may have used the shower which I believe was downstairs. The house wasn't the tidiest so they could have been just left laying about on a chair. But I strongly believe that Sheila was in the main bedroom and Nevill in the single bed in Sheila's room. It makes far more sense - especially given the bears are in the bed too.
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The trousers may just have been in an ironing pile or he may have used the shower which I believe was downstairs. The house wasn't the tidiest so they could have been just left laying about on a chair. But I strongly believe that Sheila was in the main bedroom and Nevill in the single bed in Sheila's room. It makes far more sense - especially given the bears are in the bed too.
It makes no sense whatsoever and worse ignores all evidence related to the injuries, casings etc.
It makes zero sense for a grown woman to want to sleep in the master bedroom with her mother to be a hair closer to the boys who were not even in the room next to the master bedroom. The boys were not of such a young age that one would insist on sleeping next door but if one did want that then they would stay in Jeremy's former bedroom because that was the closest room.
If the killer had encountered June and Sheila in the bed then after firings 6 shots into June that would leave 4 left. If Nevill came walking in the door and the killer fired at Neville the locations of the wounds would have been different, the bullet that grazed Nevill would have been in the hall and the casings would have been near the window instead of behind the door.
In the meantime if Jeremy shot them then chased Nevill Sheila would not have stayed there in the bedroom waiting for Jeremy to return to shoot her. She would have gone to hide her kids or get them out of the house.
Your claims make not a lick of sense and are contrary to the evidence. Your illogical claims are crafted around slippers which you insist have to be Nevill's though there are women slippers styled in the same manner and despite the fact that Nevill could have left his slippers in there long before anyway.
You are free to believe any nonsense you like. I will follow the evidence to its logical conclusion instead of speculating about slippers being Nevill's and crafting wild tales that make no sense and fail to correspond to the evidence around such speculation.
The only way the casings could get in the corner behind the door is by shooting at someone who was in bed. This means they support Nevill being on the bed when he was shot.
The fact that 3 of the bullets were fired to Nevill's left side while Nevill was not fully upright also corresponds to Nevill being shot while seated in bed.
The killer would have to be standing on the chair to shoot Nevill's left side as he was walking in the door to achieve the trajectory of the shots and the casings would not be able to get behind the door if that had happened. The bullet that grazed Nevill in the meantime would have ended up in the hall.
You never addressed any of these problems or the the problem that Sheila would not have just sat there on Nevill's side of the bed waiting for Jeremy to return as both men went downstairs and fought in the kitchen. If she saw her mother get shot she would have gone to her kids to either try to hide them in a safe place or to try to get them out of the house.
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It makes no sense whatsoever and worse ignores all evidence related to the injuries, casings etc.
It makes zero sense for a grown woman to want to sleep in the master bedroom with her mother to be a hair closer to the boys who were not even in the room next to the master bedroom. The boys were not of such a young age that one would insist on sleeping next door but if one did want that then they would stay in Jeremy's former bedroom because that was the closest room.
If the killer had encountered June and Sheila in the bed then after firings 6 shots into June that would leave 4 left. If Nevill came walking in the door and the killer fired at Neville the locations of the wounds would have been different, the bullet that grazed Nevill would have been in the hall and the casings would have been near the window instead of behind the door.
In the meantime if Jeremy shot them then chased Nevill Sheila would not have stayed there in the bedroom waiting for Jeremy to return to shoot her. She would have gone to hide her kids or get them out of the house.
Your claims make not a lick of sense and are contrary to the evidence. Your illogical claims are crafted around slippers which you insist have to be Nevill's though there are women slippers styled in the same manner and despite the fact that Nevill could have left his slippers in there long before anyway.
You are free to believe any nonsense you like. I will follow the evidence to its logical conclusion instead of speculating about slippers being Nevill's and crafting wild tales that make no sense and fail to correspond to the evidence around such speculation.
The only way the casings could get in the corner behind the door is by shooting at someone who was in bed. This means they support Nevill being on the bed when he was shot.
The fact that 3 of the bullets were fired to Nevill's left side while Nevill was not fully upright also corresponds to Nevill being shot while seated in bed.
The killer would have to be standing on the chair to shoot Nevill's left side as he was walking in the door to achieve the trajectory of the shots and the casings would not be able to get behind the door if that had happened. The bullet that grazed Nevill in the meantime would have ended up in the hall.
You never addressed any of these problems or the the problem that Sheila would not have just sat there on Nevill's side of the bed waiting for Jeremy to return as both men went downstairs and fought in the kitchen. If she saw her mother get shot she would have gone to her kids to either try to hide them in a safe place or to try to get them out of the house.
Yes you said, I don't agree.
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Each entitled to our own opinion.....I don't agree with all of yours either Scipio!
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Each entitled to our own opinion.....I don't agree with all of yours either Scipio!
My points are facts. It is a fact the shell casings were in the master bedroom in a location where they would only be from shooting someone in bed. The bullet that grazed Nevill was in the master bedroom. The trajectory of the shots as location of these items is impossible to achieve with Nevill being shot as he was in the doorway walking into the bedroom.
The notion Sheila would sleep in the bed with June is bad enough alone let alone given all this evidence but even worse suggesting she stayed in the bedroom on Nevill's side of the bed after June was shot and Nevill was shot and Nevill and Jeremy went to the kitchen waiting for Jeremy to return. It is not the least bit credible.
I advance the arguments of the experts because such is consistent with the evidence if people want to ignore such they are free but don't be surprised when virtually everyone dismisses wild speculation of such kind as rubbish.
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My points are facts. It is a fact the shell casings were in the master bedroom in a location where they would only be from shooting someone in bed. The bullet that grazed Nevill was in the master bedroom. The trajectory of the shots as location of these items is impossible to achieve with Nevill being shot as he was in the doorway walking into the bedroom.
The notion Sheila would sleep in the bed with June is bad enough alone let alone given all this evidence but even worse suggesting she stayed in the bedroom on Nevill's side of the bed after June was shot and Nevill was shot and Nevill and Jeremy went to the kitchen waiting for Jeremy to return. It is not the least bit credible.
I advance the arguments of the experts because such is consistent with the evidence if people want to ignore such they are free but don't be surprised when virtually everyone dismisses wild speculation of such kind as rubbish.
Yes you said, we don't agree. You have also advanced that Nevill's blood was 'likely' on the bedding with nothing to back that up. There is no evidence that he was shot in the main bedroom - it's an assumption because that's where he usually slept. Why are the bears there Scipio? Why was Sheila shot in the main bedroom? Experts aren't always correct.
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Yes you said, we don't agree. You have also advanced that Nevill's blood was 'likely' on the bedding with nothing to back that up. There is no evidence that he was shot in the main bedroom - it's an assumption because that's where he usually slept. Why are the bears there Scipio? Why was Sheila shot in the main bedroom? Experts aren't always correct.
No I pointed out that his blood didn't need to be on the bedding but since the bedding was not examined we don't know whether it was or wasn't. The photos of the bedding near SHeila have more than just the background pattern on them there does appear to be blood in the meantime.
That you disagree with the official line put out by the experts means little. You do not refute any of the evidence they rely upon to come up with their assessments you just ignore it. Your claims make no sense at all except in your mind and are contradicted by evidence regardless of what you care to think.
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No I pointed out that his blood didn't need to be on the bedding but since the bedding was not examined we don't know whether it was or wasn't. The photos of the bedding near SHeila have more than just the background pattern on them there does appear to be blood in the meantime.
That you disagree with the official line put out by the experts means little. You do not refute any of the evidence they rely upon to come up with their assessments you just ignore it. Your claims make no sense at all except in your mind and are contradicted by evidence regardless of what you care to think.
Well, lets see if they make sense to other people. We know your opinion, let someone else comment.
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DR Peter Vanezis Report 7th May 1986
I have been asked to comment on bullet wounds itemized 1,2,3,4, on N. Bamber
Firstly these wounds cannot be taken in isolation when discussing the effect of each regarding fatality. I will therefore comment on the collective nature of their effects and I will also comment on a possible effect of that a wound in this region would have.
In my view it is extremely unlikely that the victim could have received any of the 4 wounds upstairs and made his way down to the kitchen under his own steam. In all probability these four wounds were inflicted after the victim had ceased to struggle. Because they had been fired in two groups to the same side of the head within a confined area thus indicating that the deceased had not moved substantially after the first wound was received.
5/6 Wounds - The blood loss that would be expected from such wounds would be substantial both internally and externally and would depend on how long the victim would survive suffice to say that the regions injured have a rich blood supply.
Regarding wound 7. - In my view after the infliction of this wound the victim’s ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired.
Wound 8. – the difficulty in finding bullet fragments could be due to the fact that some of these may have been in clothing.
Not just my opinion! Going by the pathologist's report it looks like blood would have been present in the upstairs Master bedroom, but there isn't!
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I've said all I need to say in this thread:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
In summary:
- No evidence NB was shot in the main bedroom
- No evidence of any of NB's blood on the bedding
- No evidence of any of NB's blood on the carpet
- DC Hammersley confirmed at trial that everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom
- Carpet samples from the main bedroom were analysed and found to match June's blood group - A and AK2-1
- Blue socks from the main bedroom were analysed and found to match June's blood - A and AK2-1
- Location of casings in the main bedroom and landing do not support the theory NB was shot whilst he was in the main bedroom
I'm not sure any experts have ever categorically stated NB was shot in the main bedroom? If they have on what basis?
Although I agree with Caro on the above I disagree with the following:
- SC slept with June on the basis she wanted to be near the twins. The twins were 6 year olds not new borns.
- If SC wanted to be near the twins JB's former bedroom was closer.
- The bed in the main bedroom looks queen or king sized. NB and June were not heffers and could quite easily accommodate the bears which was probably a bit of child play with the twins. I seem to recall my parents doing similar when their grandchildren stayed over. I'm surprised Caro didn't ask JB about the bears?
- The slippers in SC's bedroom could belong to anyone or just be guest slippers. AP stayed there the previous w.e they may have been his or he may have borrowed a pair from NB. If they were being used by NB or SC then why were they not by the side of the slept in bed?
- SC was clearly using her former bedroom as her personal belongings were on the unused bed.
- The tiny blood sample found outside SC's bedroom door was tested but the results were inconclusive. It could belong to anyone.
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I'm surprised Caro didn't ask JB about the bears?
One was definitely called Cuthbert... the other I'm not sure about, but could have been his brother, Clarence.
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I've said all I need to say in this thread:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
In summary:
- No evidence NB was shot in the main bedroom
- No evidence of any of NB's blood on the bedding
- No evidence of any of NB's blood on the carpet
- DC Hammersley confirmed at trial that everything of evidential value was removed from the bed in the main bedroom
- Carpet samples from the main bedroom were analysed and found to match June's blood group - A and AK2-1
- Blue socks from the main bedroom were analysed and found to match June's blood - A and AK2-1
- Location of casings in the main bedroom and landing do not support the theory NB was shot whilst he was in the main bedroom
I'm not sure any experts have ever categorically stated NB was shot in the main bedroom? If they have on what basis?
Although I agree with Caro on the above I disagree with the following:
- SC slept with June on the basis she wanted to be near the twins. The twins were 6 year olds not new borns.
- If SC wanted to be near the twins JB's former bedroom was closer.
- The bed in the main bedroom looks queen or king sized. NB and June were not heffers and could quite easily accommodate the bears which was probably a bit of child play with the twins. I seem to recall my parents doing similar when their grandchildren stayed over. I'm surprised Caro didn't ask JB about the bears?
- The slippers in SC's bedroom could belong to anyone or just be guest slippers. AP stayed there the previous w.e they may have been his or he may have borrowed a pair from NB. If they were being used by NB or SC then why were they not by the side of the slept in bed?
- SC was clearly using her former bedroom as her personal belongings were on the unused bed.
- The tiny blood sample found outside SC's bedroom door was tested but the results were inconclusive. It could belong to anyone.
Anyone could have put her stuff on the bed or she could have been using the room to store her stuff. I didn't say she slept there every night but I think something happened that night fr her to be there. Jeremy said the slippers were his dads.
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One was definitely called Cuthbert... the other I'm not sure about, but could have been his brother, Clarence.
Lol. If it wasn't for you doing your thing with the photos I wouldn't have even know there were two present.
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Anyone could have put her stuff on the bed or she could have been using the room to store her stuff. I didn't say she slept there every night but I think something happened that night fr her to be there. Jeremy said the slippers were his dads.
If as you say they were definitely his dad's, why were they nowhere near to where one would have expected them to be... by the side of the bed that had been slept in/on?
None of his daytime clothing was visible or found? in Sheila's room, but there does appear to be some decorating the chair by the side of his bed in the master bedroom. As well as his blue socks on the floor?
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Lol. If it wasn't for you doing your thing with the photos I wouldn't have even know there were two present.
I think that deserves a like... I'm stuck on 7 and desperate to catch John up!
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If as you say they were definitely his dad's, why were they nowhere near to where one would have expected them to be... by the side of the bed that had been slept in/on?
None of his daytime clothing was visible or found? in Sheila's room, but there does appear to be some decorating the chair by the side of his bed in the master bedroom. As well as his blue socks on the floor?
They were near there door, that's where I kick mine off if I wear them. He usually had a shower before going to bed, seems natural to leave them in the bathroom, he may have left them in the kitchen because there are clothes on the floor soaking up the blood - or they maybe elsewhere in the bedroom, we can't see the whole room.
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I think that deserves a like... I'm stuck on 7 and desperate to catch John up!
Done! I've only given out one or maybe two likes. It's all too much: contemplating moving posts and making Trood's Vlogs larger, moderating, posting and liking. I can't cope with all this multi-tasking 8)><(
I had a peep on the McCann board and some of the posters are up to nearly 100 likes and that was midday! I guess it's a much busier board.
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Anyone could have put her stuff on the bed or she could have been using the room to store her stuff. I didn't say she slept there every night but I think something happened that night fr her to be there. Jeremy said the slippers were his dads.
Can't you write to him again and say you're having second thoughts and ask about the bears?
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DR Peter Vanezis Report 7th May 1986
I have been asked to comment on bullet wounds itemized 1,2,3,4, on N. Bamber
Firstly these wounds cannot be taken in isolation when discussing the effect of each regarding fatality. I will therefore comment on the collective nature of their effects and I will also comment on a possible effect of that a wound in this region would have.
In my view it is extremely unlikely that the victim could have received any of the 4 wounds upstairs and made his way down to the kitchen under his own steam. In all probability these four wounds were inflicted after the victim had ceased to struggle. Because they had been fired in two groups to the same side of the head within a confined area thus indicating that the deceased had not moved substantially after the first wound was received.
5/6 Wounds - The blood loss that would be expected from such wounds would be substantial both internally and externally and would depend on how long the victim would survive suffice to say that the regions injured have a rich blood supply.
Regarding wound 7. - In my view after the infliction of this wound the victim’s ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired.
Wound 8. – the difficulty in finding bullet fragments could be due to the fact that some of these may have been in clothing.
Not just my opinion! Going by the pathologist's report it looks like blood would have been present in the upstairs Master bedroom, but there isn't!
The Pathologist report says that while wounds 5-8 were inflicted upstairs wounds 1-4 could not have been. Nevill was shot 8 times not 4. Wounds 4-8 were the shots into his skull. There were 3 casings in the kitchen, 8 in the room with the twins, 13 in the master bedroom and 1 on the landing of the stairs. The report in question was to refute that the shell casing on the stairs could have gotten there from Nevill being shot while on the stairs. All 4 shots to the skull had to be delivered in the kitchen because any one of them would have taken him down. Moreover, they were fired in pairs while he was not moving based on the grouping of the shots. they were delivered while he was already lying down. 2 were delivered tho the top of his skull and the second group to the right side of his skull.
This report was the basis for establishing the casing on the stairs must have gotten stuck to a shoe and was transported from the kitchen to the stairs by either the killer or police.
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Thirteen shell casings in the master bedroom ? But why should the evidence get in the way of a theory ? It never has before in this case.
There was a teddy bear in the master bedroom. Surely that means Sheila slept with June. Why ? So she could be nearer her 6 year old sons who were errrr in another room !
The reason why Sheila wanted to be nearer two six year old boys (who were in another bedroom) has yet to be given.
This theory is not as sick as the suggestion that Sheila and Neville shared a bed. Which three posters on Blue previously discussed.
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Thirteen shell casings in the master bedroom ? But why should the evidence get in the way of a theory ? It never has before in this case.
There was a teddy bear in the master bedroom. Surely that means Sheila slept with June. Why ? So she could be nearer her 6 year old sons who were errrr in another room !
The reason why Sheila wanted to be nearer two six year old boys (who were in another bedroom) has yet to be given.
This theory is not as sick as the suggestion that Sheila and Neville shared a bed. Which three posters on Blue previously discussed.
I can only think it was Mike's -not so subtle- suggestion of an incestuous relationship between Sheila and Nevill which was being discussed. I don't recall ANYONE suggesting a "three in a bed" scenario.
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Thirteen shell casings in the master bedroom ? But why should the evidence get in the way of a theory ? It never has before in this case.
There was a teddy bear in the master bedroom. Surely that means Sheila slept with June. Why ? So she could be nearer her 6 year old sons who were errrr in another room !
The reason why Sheila wanted to be nearer two six year old boys (who were in another bedroom) has yet to be given.
This theory is not as sick as the suggestion that Sheila and Neville shared a bed. Which three posters on Blue previously discussed.
Find the post and prove it? You couldn't grasp what was being said and make that conclusion yourself.
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A thought came to me last night.
Why was the teddy bear in J & N B's bed? Two adult people do not usually have a teddy bear in bed with them. My conclusion to this is that the teddy bear was one of the twins, or SC's
But the twins were in bed before JB left WHF so could it have been SC's or had she bought it back from the children's bedroom? ( access to twins room from master bedroom)
This in turn made me think that maybe SC was in the bed beside June after the twins where put to bed. This then began to make sense of SC not having any blood on her legs and feet....she was made to get out of the bed to the area she was found. No blood in bedroom from NB !
I started checking out times given that night and I've come to the conclusion that NB was shot downstairs NOT upstairs. My reasons are...
1) JB asks NB to collect last tractor load of rape. This is important because it makes NB's routine later than usual i.e. walking dogs/shower before bed.
2) BW rings farm at around 9.30 pm thinks she hears argument, 3) JB states he doesn't hear phone and left farm at 9.30pm. it is 9.50 pm when he rings JM. My opinion is he left WHF later than 9.30 pm, "just after 9.30 pm" according to neighbour. JB then rings JM 9.50 pm. The timing is important as JB says he has been on the phone to JM for 17 minutes. Time now... 10.07 pm. JB states he watches TV until 11.00 pm, and then goes to bed ( JB tells JM in second phone call he hasn't slept all night) 11.00 pm coincides with NB having finished collecting rape seed ( farm worker saw NB in field at 10 00 pm.) Approx time to collect rape seed given as 20 minutes, tractor then taken to yard, approx time 10 minutes...NB walks dogs as usual and has a shower...approx time ...30 minutes. total time 11.00 pm. If NB went into field at 9.45 pm... as he was still in WHF when JB left.... he would have finished collecting rape seed by 10.05 pm without taking time to put tractor in yard.( notice the similarity in time after phone call from JB to JM) NB then spends 30 minutes walking dogs,and showering. 10.35.00 pm. NB was used to having a cigarette, and gin and tonic before bed. Did JB leave his cottage at 11.00 pm knowing his father would be in the kitchen relaxing at this time. Did NB let JB into the house?! I find it strange that NB was found in the position of the chair he used at the table in WHF. Was there another argument that night in the kitchen?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/11/16/007044E800000258-3157376-image-a-7_1436628600804.jpg)
Proud grandad Nevill Bamber holds one of the twins as a young Jeremy Bamber eats breakfast.
We will never know for sure but quite possibly one of the twins gave granny the teddy bear earlier.
As for the shootings, the spent bullet casings in and near the master bedroom evidence the fact that both June and Nevill were shot there, the latter having escaped downstairs (blood on stairs wall) to the kitchen where he was battered and shot several times again.
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Thirteen shell casings in the master bedroom ? But why should the evidence get in the way of a theory ? It never has before in this case.
There was a teddy bear in the master bedroom. Surely that means Sheila slept with June. Why ? So she could be nearer her 6 year old sons who were errrr in another room !
The reason why Sheila wanted to be nearer two six year old boys (who were in another bedroom) has yet to be given.
This theory is not as sick as the suggestion that Sheila and Neville shared a bed. Which three posters on Blue previously discussed.
13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom.
2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's). 7 were found around June's side of the bed. 2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing. 1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.
The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.
Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout ?>)()<) the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.
Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with? It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence. DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number. If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?
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13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom.
2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's). 7 were found around June's side of the bed. 2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing. 1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.
The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.
Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout ?>)()<) the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.
Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with? It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence. DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number. If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?
I think you have miscounted Holly, thirteen were indeed associated with the master bedroom plus one on the stairs.
To recount, Nevill was shot 4 times in bedroom, June 7 times and Sheila twice. That makes 13.
Nevill was shot a further 3 times in the kitchen and one other location, possibly as he made his way down the stairs.
The twins were shot a total of 8 times, Daniel 5 times and Nicholas three times.
In total this comes to 25 bullets.
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I think you have miscounted Holly, thirteen were indeed associated with the master bedroom plus one on the stairs.
To recount, Nevill was shot 4 times in bedroom, June 7 times and Sheila twice. That makes 13.
Nevill was shot a further 3 times in the kitchen and one other location, possibly as he made his way down the stairs.
The twins were shot can total of 8 times. This makes a total of 25 bullets.
I don't think so but I've just removed a hold up so I can get beyond 10 and use my toes. I'll report back later.
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I don't think so but I've just removed a hold up so I can get beyond 10 and use my toes. I'll report back later.
Well I have every bullet casing listed and it comes to 25.
Master Bedroom = 13
Stairs = 1
Children's Bedroom = 8
Kitchen = 3
Total = 25
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Well I have every bullet casing listed and it comes to 25.
Master Bedroom = 13
Stairs = 1
Children's Bedroom = 8
Kitchen = 3
Total = 25
I agree with all except the main bedroom. (You refer to 1 on the stairs whereas I believe it was on the landing).
Main bedroom:
DRH/1 - Near SC's body
DRH/2 - "
DRH/3 - Near entrance
DRH/4 - "
DRH/6 - ) Under, on or around June's side of the bed
DRH/7 - ) "
DRH/8 - ) "
DRH/10 - ) "
DRH/11 - ) "
DRH/12 - ) "
DRH/43 - ) "
DRH/13 - On transition strip
TOTAL = 12 + DRH/14 on the landing = 13:
SC = 2 GSW's
June = 7 GSW's
NB = 4 GSW's
TOTAL = 13
I am not prepared to accept 2 casings were found in the main bedroom and both had the same exhibit label DRH/7. Every individual exhbit is given its own unique exhibit number. It seems clear to me some tampering went on hence the exhibit bag containing DRH/7 was opened and another casing popped inside. It was then resealed and DRH/7 became DRH/7a and DRH/7b. This does not fit with the SoC photos or DC Hammersley's trial testimony.
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I agree with the query Holly about the two casing DRH 07 being numbered the same. I believe there were two casing near the wardrobe...as stated... in fact one was found under the wardrobe on second inspection. My understanding of this is that casing DRH 43 was found on another day i.e. the following day hence a different number. BUT...in total there were only two casings found near the wardrobe. At the end of the report the casing that was found on the second day is bought into question. I therefore think there were only 11 casings found in the bedroom, one more found on the threshold of the door, the other found at bottom of stairs, making a total of 13 casings in bedroom and on stairs.
This would also account for DRH 07 bag being opened after first casing found the day before.
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Regarding discussion about SC being in bed with JB. It is documented that schizophrenic patients feel 'loneliness'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12580538
SC was away from her home..... recently been in hospital......and states she has found 'God'. SC could therefore have been studying the bible in bed with her mother before going to sleep. Plus door leading from main bedroom leads through box room to twins room.
Did JB know that SC was in bed with JB that night?.....NO.
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13 shell casings were not found in the main bedroom.
2 casings were found close to SC and clearly relate to her two gunshot wounds (gsw's). 7 were found around June's side of the bed. 2 were found just inside the door to the main bedroom leading from the landing. 1 was found on the transition strip between main bedroom door and landing and a further 1 was found on the landing.
The 7 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 11 and clearly relate to the 7 gsw's June sustained and the 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs.
Due to JB's useless defence (yes that's is you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin prepare yourselves for the fallout ?>)()<) the prosecution were able to get away with DRH/7 featuring twice inside the main bedroom and the theory that a police officer unwittingly transferred a casing under his sole from the kitchen to the landing.
Why would two casings be given the same exhibit label DRH/7?
Why did they become DRH/7 a and DRH/7 b?
Why was the exhibit bag tampered with? It was opened and resealed, why?
Exhibits/labels didn't need to be in any sequence. DRH/43 was found two days later hence it has a higher number. If another casing was found later why not just give it another number?
13 spent cases were indeed found in the bedroom. 2 cases side by side were called DRH7 because they were practically touching one another and it was not possible to put 2 markers so close. The same thing was done with the bullets in June's. The same thing was also done with 2 casings in the Twin's room.
There is no doubt at all that Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen, that 1 of the spent cases associated with 1 of these shots was missing from the kitchen and thus had been accidentally transported elsewhere. The only case located in an arbitrary location was the one on the landing and that landing is part of the staircase hence why people sometimes say on the stairs.
1 spent case was on the bed and another 7 were found in the corner of June's side. These 8 cases were associated with 4 shots to Nevill and 4 shots to June delivered while they were on/in the bed. That is the only way in which the cases could get in such locations. Aiming at somewhere other than the bed would result in the cases being in different locations. The 3 cases near the doorway were associated with the other 3 wounds June suffered. She was either out of bed or getting out when shot 2 times in the chest. The killer had to aim further to the right than when she was in bed and this in turn caused the cases to be further to the right of the other cases. The last was associated with the shot between her eyes.
nt he room the twins were in.
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The Order Of Shots.
JB = 6 Bedroom
SC 1 Pathologist Report states SC would be immobilized after first shot.
NB = 2 on Landing
Downstairs struggle NB immobilized ( pistol whipped.)
Reloads gun – 9 bullets ( one still in magazine )
NB 6 shots. Kitchen.
Reloads 6 more bullets. = 10 bullets (Kitchen being handy place to be to reload!)
Upstairs. Shoots twins 8 times
Goes through to main bedroom. Shoots JB through eyes
Finally one shot to SC. places empty gun on SC
Purpose of last shots to JB and SC was to confirm deaths. JB asks Police if they know the last person killed…..the purpose of this was to see if they knew SC was killed last. Hence pointing finger at SC for deaths. JB states Solicitor wanted to know relating to inheritance.
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The Order Of Shots.
JB = 6 Bedroom
SC 1 Pathologist Report states SC would be immobilized after first shot.
NB = 2 on Landing
Downstairs struggle NB immobilized ( pistol whipped.)
Reloads gun – 9 bullets ( one still in magazine )
NB 6 shots. Kitchen.
Reloads 6 more bullets. = 10 bullets (Kitchen being handy place to be to reload!)
Upstairs. Shoots twins 8 times
Goes through to main bedroom. Shoots JB through eyes
Finally one shot to SC. places empty gun on SC
Purpose of last shots to JB and SC was to confirm deaths. JB asks Police if they know the last person killed…..the purpose of this was to see if they knew SC was killed last. Hence pointing finger at SC for deaths. JB states Solicitor wanted to know relating to inheritance.
The various shooting episodes were as follows:
1) Master Bedroom- 4 to Nevill's left side as he was sitting on the bed and 4 to June as she was in the bed. 2 more to June as she was getting out of bed or out of bed. Gun empty
2) Nevill knocked out in the kitchen, gun reloaded then Nevill shot 4 times in the head. Rather than go upstairs with a partially loaded weapon killer dropped the magazine and reloaded the magazine to full capacity thus 10 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber.
3) 1 shot fired between June's eyes to make sure she was dead, 8 shots fired to kill the boys and the last 2 remaining rounds fired into Sheila hence weapon empty.
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CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, ballistics, for her book published last year and neither of these experts agreed on the order of shots. In fact their accounts were wildly different. If the experts involved in the case are unable to agree some 30 years on what hope is there?!
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13 spent cases were indeed found in the bedroom. 2 cases side by side were called DRH7 because they were practically touching one another and it was not possible to put 2 markers so close. The same thing was done with the bullets in June's. The same thing was also done with 2 casings in the Twin's room.
There is no doubt at all that Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen, that 1 of the spent cases associated with 1 of these shots was missing from the kitchen and thus had been accidentally transported elsewhere. The only case located in an arbitrary location was the one on the landing and that landing is part of the staircase hence why people sometimes say on the stairs.
1 spent case was on the bed and another 7 were found in the corner of June's side. These 8 cases were associated with 4 shots to Nevill and 4 shots to June delivered while they were on/in the bed. That is the only way in which the cases could get in such locations. Aiming at somewhere other than the bed would result in the cases being in different locations. The 3 cases near the doorway were associated with the other 3 wounds June suffered. She was either out of bed or getting out when shot 2 times in the chest. The killer had to aim further to the right than when she was in bed and this in turn caused the cases to be further to the right of the other cases. The last was associated with the shot between her eyes.
nt he room the twins were in.
I disagree. I think 12 casings were found in the main bedroom including the casing on the transition strip.
Where's the formal explanation saying if exhibits are "practically touching one another" they are given the same exhibit number? The rifle was touching SC's nightdress but both had separate exhibit numbers.
I agree it's most likely NB was shot four times in the kitchen but the fact only three casings were found doesn't mean DRH/14 found on the landing was transferred under an officers sole. There's no firm evidence for this. It was and remains simply a theory which supports the prosecutions case. It could mean that the casing which measures about about 1cm in length and 0.5cm in diameter was simply swept up with the debris in the kitchen eg broken crockery, lampshade and sugar. The carpet was patterned brown and the small brass casing could easily get lost. DC Hammersly confirmed at trial he did not check any sweepings. It could have landed down some nook or cranny or been transferred outside WHF under an officers sole. Or it could have fallen down the back of NB's pyjama top.
There are seven casings on, under or around June's side of the bed which imo pertain to the shots June sustained. The casings around the entrance of the door, on the transition strip and on the landing, four in total, pertain to the shots NB sustained imo.
I know you disagree Scipio but we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I agree with the query Holly about the two casing DRH 07 being numbered the same. I believe there were two casing near the wardrobe...as stated... in fact one was found under the wardrobe on second inspection. My understanding of this is that casing DRH 43 was found on another day i.e. the following day hence a different number. BUT...in total there were only two casings found near the wardrobe. At the end of the report the casing that was found on the second day is bought into question. I therefore think there were only 11 casings found in the bedroom, one more found on the threshold of the door, the other found at bottom of stairs, making a total of 13 casings in bedroom and on stairs.
This would also account for DRH 07 bag being opened after first casing found the day before.
I've 'liked' you for agreeing with me Opal. If you want to increase your 'Like' stats you know what to do %£&)**# 8((()*/
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I've 'liked' Scipio's post #38 too even though I disagree!
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CAL interviewed Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Malcolm Fletcher, ballistics, for her book published last year and neither of these experts agreed on the order of shots. In fact their accounts were wildly different. If the experts involved in the case are unable to agree some 30 years on what hope is there?!
What they can't tell for sure is the order of the exact order of 10 shots in the first episode. While it is rather obvious June chest shots were fired at her after the 4 shots where she was in bed there is no way to know the order of the 4 shots in bed. Nor is there a way to know whether all were fired at her then Nevill targeted or a mix of the shots.
In the second kitchen shooting episode there is know why to know whether the first 2 shots fired were to the tip of the skull ad latter 2 to the right side or vice versa. We just know these were the next 4 shots fired.
Nor can they tell which twin was shot first. One was shot then the other but no way to know who was shot first for certain. For that matter there is no way to know for certain whether the shot between June's eyes was before or after killing the boys and it is even possible though not likely that Sheila was shot and killed before the twins.
We know 10 rounds were fired in the master bedroom at the parents and the wounds they caused but not the precise order of these shots.
We know after Nevill was beaten unconscious the gun was reloaded and 4 rounds fired into Nevill's head though not the precise order of these shots.
We know the gun was then fully reloaded so that it had 11 and that 1 was fired between June's eyes, 2 into Sheila and 8 into the boys but not the precise order of these shots.
The evidence can only tell who was shot where and which loading of the magazine corresponded to the shootings. Only a witness could describe the exact order and usually that is often not fully accurate because in the heat of the moment people are not paying careful attention. Even shooters often don't remember the exact order or number of shots they fired.
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I disagree. I think 12 casings were found in the main bedroom including the casing on the transition strip.
Where's the formal explanation saying if exhibits are "practically touching one another" they are given the same exhibit number? The rifle was touching SC's nightdress but both had separate exhibit numbers.
I agree it's most likely NB was shot four times in the kitchen but the fact only three casings were found doesn't mean DRH/14 found on the landing was transferred under an officers sole. There's no firm evidence for this. It was and remains simply a theory which supports the prosecutions case. It could mean that the casing which measures about about 1cm in length and 0.5cm in diameter was simply swept up with the debris in the kitchen eg broken crockery, lampshade and sugar. The carpet was patterned brown and the small brass casing could easily get lost. DC Hammersly confirmed at trial he did not check any sweepings. It could have landed down some nook or cranny or been transferred outside WHF under an officers sole. Or it could have fallen down the back of NB's pyjama top.
There are seven casings on, under or around June's side of the bed which imo pertain to the shots June sustained. The casings around the entrance of the door, on the transition strip and on the landing, four in total, pertain to the shots NB sustained imo.
I know you disagree Scipio but we'll have to agree to disagree.
Your position is being driven by your desired outcome. Nevill being shot while on the bed precludes Jeremy being innocent and since you want to believe he is innocent it means you have chosen to ignore the evidence that proves he was shot in bed.
Your claims related to the cases hold no water nor do your claims related to the trajectory of the wounds. It is impossible for the trajectory of the wounds to be delivered as Nevill was walking up the stairs or through the bedroom door. The trajectory of the wounds makes clear he was seated when shot with the killer to his left side and cases correspond with where they would be if the shots were fired at someone on Nevill's side of the bed.
You are so desperate that you keep denying that DRH/7 consisted of 2 cases though the person who labeled it says it was 2 cases, the photos taken confirm there were 2 cases and the lab examined 2 cases. I posted the examination record. It contains sketches of 2 separate cases. Aside from the fact it clearly says they were labeled 7A and 7B on the examination record for the sake of convenience, you can see the firing pin impressions are in very different locations on each. Suggesting that they accidentally threw away the 4th case from the kitchen and then made up there was an extra case in the bedroom is not worthy of you, it something Mike would make up.
This is from Hamersley's report where he listed the evidence he collected:
(http://s32.postimg.org/c3m4zsmsl/102285hammersleyreport.jpg)
This is the lab examination record:
(http://s32.postimg.org/wcafo9jz9/drh7examrecord.jpg)
This was not the only exhibit consisting of 2 spent cases. DRH/39 was recovered underneath Nicholas' bed and likewise it consisted of 2 cases.
(http://s32.postimg.org/9w7f9ccx1/102285hammersleydrh38.jpg)
(http://s32.postimg.org/3x8fkcuat/drh39examrecord.jpg)
So cases recovered side by side underneath furniture in 2 separate rooms were grouped together into a single exhibit. There is nothing suspicious about this.
In the evidence diagram it is readily apparent that the casings are grouped. There are 2 on Nevill's side of the bed associated with Sheila's wounds. There are 4 total (1 on June's side of the bed and 3 more on the floor very close to her bed) that are all close together that correspond to shooting at someone on Nevill's side of the bed. There is another group of 4 further away that corresponds to where they would be shooting at someone on June's side of the bed. There are 2 more near the door where they would be if shooting at someone who was standing up near June's side of the bed. The there is the lone one associated with June's shot between her eyes.
(http://s32.postimg.org/6tmbgoxut/WHFevidencediagram.jpg)
Refusing to agree with the evidence accomplishes nothing except easing your mind enough to let you live in denial. That accomplishes nothing in any larger sense. it certainly doesn't provide a basis to trash the defense for facing the evidence.
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The way I see it we cannot be 100% sure of any of the casing positions, the one found on the landing could have been ejected there, it could have been transferred on a policemans boot or it could have rolled down the stairs. It is pointless arguing the point.
In relation to forensics item DRH/7 there were indeed two casings found side by side. DRH/7 does not relate to a casing, it relates to a sample bag containing two casings.
Twenty five shots discharged, twenty five casings accounted for. I might split this thread as we appear to have lost poor teddy in all of this.
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The way I see it we cannot be 100% sure of any of the casing positions, the one found on the landing could have been ejected there, it could have been transferred on a policemans boot or it could have rolled down the stairs. It is pointless arguing the point.
In relation to forensics item DRH/7 there were indeed two casings found side by side. DRH/7 does not relate to a casing, it relates to a sample bag containing two casings.
Twenty five shots discharged, twenty five casings accounted for. I might split this thread as we appear to have lost poor teddy in all of this.
There were definitely 4 shots fired in the kitchen 1 of which was missing because it was accidentally transferred elsewhere.
The 4 casings associated with Nevill's upstairs wounds were all accounted for in the bedroom.
It's impossible for a casing to get on the landing from shooting Nevill inside the bedroom it could only get there if shooting at him while he was in the bedroom and the killer was shooting from the hallway. Shooting at him while he was on the stairs would result in the casing being ejected down to the bottom of the stairs. Only if the ejection port were on the left could it land on the landing in such location while shooting at someone who is on the stairs. In the meantime the left to right trajectories of the bullets are impossible to achieve if someone was on the stairs. There is no question that the casing was transferred from the kitchen to the landing.
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It's impossible for a casing to get on the landing from shooting Nevill inside the bedroom it could only get there if shooting at him while he was in the bedroom and the killer was shooting from the hallway. Shooting at him while he was on the stairs would result in the casing being ejected down to the bottom of the stairs. Only if the ejection port were on the left could it land on the landing in such location while shooting at someone who is on the stairs. In the meantime the left to right trajectories of the bullets are impossible to achieve if someone was on the stairs. There is no question that the casing was transferred from the kitchen to the landing.
Never say never scipio. We just can't be 100% sure where Nevill was shot, all we can go on is the position of the casings. Police all wear boots with chunky treads, it is so easy to move something by accident.
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There was also the possibility of a stovepipe jam of the fourth casing which resulted in it being carried up to the lower landing and released there by JB. The Anschutz took a severe pounding in the kitchen for a piece of the stock to break off it, and could have resulted in damage to the ejection mechanism, as M. Fletcher was later to find out.
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Never say never scipio. We just can't be 100% sure where Nevill was shot, all we can go on is the position of the casings. Police all wear boots with chunky treads, it is so easy to move something by accident.
Surely you are not suggesting that police possibly got numerous casings stuck to their shoes and relocated numerous cases. The kitchen is what they walked through and had the opportunity to relocate from and they relocated 1 such casing. There is no doubt in my mind that the casing on the landing is that casing just as was suggested at trial.
Sometimes there really is a never. Some things are not possible. It is not possible for the graze wound or shot to Nevill's shoulder to have been delivered while Nevill was on the stairs. Never really is never. The lip and jaw shots could only be delivered while Nevill was on the stairs if Nevill was walking up while the killer was near Sheila's doorway and fired.
The location of the casings on the bed/right next to the bed can only arrive their naturally when shooting at someone who is on the bed. 8 cases were there that is more than June suffered so at least 1 had to be fired at Nevill. For sure at least 1 shot was fired while Nevill was in the bed. It is clear at least 3 were fired while he was in the bed though based on the trajectory of the wounds. So you have 2 distinct things pointing to such the cases as well as the trajectory.
Nevill being shot 3 times in bed and also shot while walking up the stairs from someone located near Sheila's door doesn't compute. They are incompatible. The best someone can toss out is that Nevill was shot 3 times in bed hen the killer went into the hall and as Nevill was walking next to his side of the bed with his left profile facing the killer, the killer fired the shot that grazed him. That's the only realistic scenario that could account for a casing on the landing naturally. Then one has to argue that one of the casings near the door was from the kitchen. It makes little sense for the killer to run out into the hall to shoot Nevill as he was standing on his side of the bed walking around it. The graze wound is impossible to achieve except with Nevill's left side facing the shooter. That severely limits the possibilities. Once Nevill is out of bed and turns at the foot of the bed to face the door then the ability to inflict the graze wound is gone.
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There was also the possibility of a stovepipe jam of the fourth casing which resulted in it being carried up to the lower landing and released there by JB. The Anschutz took a severe pounding in the kitchen for a piece of the stock to break off it, and could have resulted in damage to the ejection mechanism, as M. Fletcher was later to find out.
It is possible though seems more likely he would clear the weapon before leaving the kitchen. It's not impossible he tried to do so as he was walking though I would prefer doing it in safety.
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Surely you are not suggesting that police possibly got numerous casings stuck to their shoes and relocated numerous cases. The kitchen is what they walked through and had the opportunity to relocate from and they relocated 1 such casing. There is no doubt in my mind that the casing on the landing is that casing just as was suggested at trial.
Sometimes there really is a never. Some things are not possible. It is not possible for the graze wound or shot to Nevill's shoulder to have been delivered while Nevill was on the stairs. Never really is never. The lip and jaw shots could only be delivered while Nevill was on the stairs if Nevill was walking up while the killer was near Sheila's doorway and fired.
The location of the casings on the bed/right next to the bed can only arrive their naturally when shooting at someone who is on the bed. 8 cases were there that is more than June suffered so at least 1 had to be fired at Nevill. For sure at least 1 shot was fired while Nevill was in the bed. It is clear at least 3 were fired while he was in the bed though based on the trajectory of the wounds. So you have 2 distinct things pointing to such the cases as well as the trajectory.
Nevill being shot 3 times in bed and also shot while walking up the stairs from someone located near Sheila's door doesn't compute. They are incompatible. The best someone can toss out is that Nevill was shot 3 times in bed hen the killer went into the hall and as Nevill was walking next to his side of the bed with his left profile facing the killer, the killer fired the shot that grazed him. That's the only realistic scenario that could account for a casing on the landing naturally. Then one has to argue that one of the casings near the door was from the kitchen. It makes little sense for the killer to run out into the hall to shoot Nevill as he was standing on his side of the bed walking around it. The graze wound is impossible to achieve except with Nevill's left side facing the shooter. That severely limits the possibilities. Once Nevill is out of bed and turns at the foot of the bed to face the door then the ability to inflict the graze wound is gone.
The problem is that we just cannot be sure. It is highly unlikely that all casings were displaced by being trod on but those which fell on stairs, landing or high traffic areas could well have been. When armed police enter a house in poor light conditions all sorts of things get kicked about.
Your point that Nevill could not have been shot going down the stairs is also unsound. For all we know Nevill went down the stairs but turned round to face his attacker only to be shot again. Point is that it could have happened but there is no way to prove it. Only his assailant knows for sure.
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It is possible though seems more likely he would clear the weapon before leaving the kitchen. It's not impossible he tried to do so as he was walking though I would prefer doing it in safety.
In the heat of the moment many a thing can happen which otherwise might not have happened by design.
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In the heat of the moment many a thing can happen which otherwise might not have happened by design.
Yipeee!!!! Thank God for someone who recognizes that this was NEVER a case of "painting by numbers" and people don't always act true to form.
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Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here.... 8(0(*
When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?
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Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here.... 8(0(*
When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?
A good question Opal, he must have known that the .22 rifle would have been pretty useless when fired at a human but then that is why he used mostly head shots to put his victims down. I believe he greatly underestimated the power of the rifle and was shocked when he realised how many bullets he was going to have to use. If you think about it, shooting small children in the head three and five times must be the most callous thing ever. If ever there was a case for capital punishment this was it!
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Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here.... 8(0(*
When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?
Not really an expert on guns but I would have thought the rifle was better suited, I think (especially with the sites), it would be more accurate and a shot gun would would damage the property - given that he was 'supposed' to be shooting them in the yard.
What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.
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A good question Opal, he must have known that the .22 rifle would have been pretty useless when fired at a human but then that is why he used mostly head shots to put his victims down. I believe he greatly underestimated the power of the rifle and was shocked when he realised how many bullets he was going to have to use. If you think about it, shooting small children in the head three and five times must be the most callous thing ever. If ever there was a case for capital punishment this was it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loFOlPm_TIU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loFOlPm_TIU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNaRqY--jFE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNaRqY--jFE)
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What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.
He needed to have swallowed it first... very painful! 8(0(*
Like please!
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Yipeee!!!! Thank God for someone who recognizes that this was NEVER a case of "painting by numbers" and people don't always act true to form.
If the weapon jammed after shooting Nevill in the kitchen it would be highly illogical to drop the magazine, reload the magazine, to reinsert it and then walk with the weapon trying to unjam it.
Worse yet this would mean the weapon would not have 11 rounds thus would require Jeremy reloading a single round either to fire between June's eyes after killing Sheila or in order to shoot Sheila an additional time.
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Perhaps someone can tell me if I'm right or not here.... 8(0(*
When shooting at bunnies it's best to use a shotgun instead of a rifle, the reason being that the pellets spread more on firing than a rifle, giving more chance of hitting a moving target? If this is right, then I'm sure NB would have known this...being a farmer...and also JB. There were plenty of other guns in the property, why did JB choose to use the rifle?
A shotgun is better if you are not a good shot with a rifle. Nevill favored a 410 for shooting rabbits which is a mainstay. Jeremy said he wanted a rifle and that was why Nevill purchased it. He really wanted a semi-auto in order to kill everyone. The only semi-auto he could get Nevill to buy was a 22LR.
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Not really an expert on guns but I would have thought the rifle was better suited, I think (especially with the sites), it would be more accurate and a shot gun would would damage the property - given that he was 'supposed' to be shooting them in the yard.
What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.
It's unclear whether he initially said he fired the rifle or not. He said he didn't get the rabbits. That could be because they got away without him getting off a shot or firing but missing.
In his initial account could simply have been vague and misinterpreted. He could have been vague on purpose to keep his options open. Later he was very specific in saying they got away because they were gone by the time he got out there. The police didn't quote him verbatim to say he fired and missed but rather that he missed them which they interpreted as him firing and missing.
Since Jeremy made up the whole account he hadn't really thought out the details. He didn't clearly think about what to say about exactly how he came across the rabbits and thus his first tale where he spoke about being in the kitchen with the family and running after the from the kitchen. He fleshed it out more later as he thought in detail what to make up. He wanted police to believe a fully loaded gun was left for Sheila to grab so it is unlikely he originally intended for police to think she fired but missed. It seems he just didn't fully flesh things out and didn't realize they would think he meant he fired and missed when he said they got away.
None of the cops at the scene say he specifically said he fired and missed butt rather simply he missed them which they interpreted as him firing. In many ways this is like the bed issue with far side of the bed and near side of the bed meaning the floor next to the bed not actually the bed itself.
That is not to say Jeremy didn't drastically change some things. Jeremy wanted the police at the scene to think Sheila could use all the guns and thus made up teaching her to use them. He realized the detectives would ask why he would teach someone he considered insane and didn't like or trust so when speaking to them he told a different account.
It is not impossible Jeremy said he fired but missed to the initial responders but later thought the better of it and decided it was better to pretend he fired no shots so the gun could be fully loaded for sheila to find. Still I think the entire plan of making up the rabbit story was to suggest she found a fully loaded weapon of opportunity and thus all along he would recognize the value in claiming the rabbits left before he could fire. I believe the police and family for that matter simply misinterpreted.
Addendum:
Upon review of what the initial responders said he told them the magazine was full when he left it in the kitchen. Quite clearly he was not suggesting he fired and missed since he was suggesting the magazine was full.
The family kept saying he said he missed the rabbits, they seem to be the main ones who misinterpreted. The detectives were unsure whether he meant missed as in fired and missed or didn't fire so they made Jeremy clarify which. In Jeremy's August 7 written statement he said he didn't fire any shots because they asked him clarify.
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If the weapon jammed after shooting Nevill in the kitchen it would be highly illogical to drop the magazine, reload the magazine, to reinsert it and then walk with the weapon trying to unjam it.
Worse yet this would mean the weapon would not have 11 rounds thus would require Jeremy reloading a single round either to fire between June's eyes after killing Sheila or in order to shoot Sheila an additional time.
Or could JB have shot at a Rabbit, leaving 9 bullets in the rifle. these he used shooting JB 6 times SC 1. and NB 2 times upstairs. Reloaded downstairs after struggle with NB. 10 in magazine...shot NB 6 times....reloaded 6 bullets = 10 and returned upstairs using 8 on twins and one more each on JB and SC. Although no bullet was found outside. I do remember reading the police questioned JB about the number of bullets left in pack of 55 bullets. I believe I'm right in saying there were 29 bullets left in pack. 25 used in murders. = 54.One bullet missing.
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Or could JB have shot at a Rabbit, leaving 9 bullets in the rifle. these he used shooting JB 6 times SC 1. and NB 2 times upstairs. Reloaded downstairs after struggle with NB. 10 in magazine...shot NB 6 times....reloaded 6 bullets = 10 and returned upstairs using 8 on twins and one more each on JB and SC. Although no bullet was found outside. I do remember reading the police questioned JB about the number of bullets left in pack of 55 bullets. I believe I'm right in saying there were 29 bullets left in pack. 25 used in murders. = 54.One bullet missing.
There were no rabbits he made up the whole tale that is why in his first account he heard the rabbits, in another account he saw them from the kitchen and his final account he left the house then saw the rabbits and returned to the house to get the gun. He was not know to EVER shoot vermin let alone to run to the house anytime he saw vermin in hopes the vermin would still be there by the time he loaded the gun and returned. He made up the rabbit story to pretend he took the gun out, loaded it and left it out.
A full pack had 50 rounds not 55. He said it was already open and near full or full. 50-25 =25 yet there were 30 bullets in the kitchen. He staged them after the murders.
Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs at the same time June was shot 6, 10 rounds were fired in the first volley. Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen not 6.
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What they can't tell for sure is the order of the exact order of 10 shots in the first episode. While it is rather obvious June chest shots were fired at her after the 4 shots where she was in bed there is no way to know the order of the 4 shots in bed. Nor is there a way to know whether all were fired at her then Nevill targeted or a mix of the shots.
In the second kitchen shooting episode there is know why to know whether the first 2 shots fired were to the tip of the skull ad latter 2 to the right side or vice versa. We just know these were the next 4 shots fired.
Nor can they tell which twin was shot first. One was shot then the other but no way to know who was shot first for certain. For that matter there is no way to know for certain whether the shot between June's eyes was before or after killing the boys and it is even possible though not likely that Sheila was shot and killed before the twins.
We know 10 rounds were fired in the master bedroom at the parents and the wounds they caused but not the precise order of these shots.
We know after Nevill was beaten unconscious the gun was reloaded and 4 rounds fired into Nevill's head though not the precise order of these shots.
We know the gun was then fully reloaded so that it had 11 and that 1 was fired between June's eyes, 2 into Sheila and 8 into the boys but not the precise order of these shots.
The evidence can only tell who was shot where and which loading of the magazine corresponded to the shootings. Only a witness could describe the exact order and usually that is often not fully accurate because in the heat of the moment people are not paying careful attention. Even shooters often don't remember the exact order or number of shots they fired.
I should have said the order in which the victims were shot. Malcolm Fletcher said he thought the twins were shot last with Dr Vanezis saying the opposite ie first. I will quote from the book for you which most definitely deserves a like:
Page 416:
"Not all those consulted agree on every point of the above. Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. However, pathologist Peter Vanezis is of the opinion that the twins may have been first to die. And no one is able to satisfactorily explain the burn marks on Nevill's back.
What does this tell you? It tells me the pair are/were hopeless:
1. It seems obvious June was initially shot 6 times and NB 4 times?
2. Dr Vanezis said SC's second gsw happened within a few seconds of the first gsw:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
According to MF above, JB shot SC once, went off to kill NB in the kitchen and then returned to fatally shoot SC.
3. Why on earth would JB murder the completely defenceless twins before dealing with NB arguably his greatest adversary?
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There were no rabbits he made up the whole tale that is why in his first account he heard the rabbits, in another account he saw them from the kitchen and his final account he left the house then saw the rabbits and returned to the house to get the gun. He was not know to EVER shoot vermin let alone to run to the house anytime he saw vermin in hopes the vermin would still be there by the time he loaded the gun and returned. He made up the rabbit story to pretend he took the gun out, loaded it and left it out.
A full pack had 50 rounds not 55. He said it was already open and near full or full. 50-25 =25 yet there were 30 bullets in the kitchen. He staged them after the murders.
Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs at the same time June was shot 6, 10 rounds were fired in the first volley. Nevill was shot 4 times in the kitchen not 6.
How do you know he was "not known to EVER shoot vermin"? The only reliable witness likely to be able to confirm or deny this would surely be NB?
He said the box was "nearly full". There's no way of knowing how many = "nearly full" but more importantly there were hundreds of rounds elsewhere in the farmhouse and we've no way of knowing where the perp accessed them from: elsewhere or the "nearly full" box.
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Not really an expert on guns but I would have thought the rifle was better suited, I think (especially with the sites), it would be more accurate and a shot gun would would damage the property - given that he was 'supposed' to be shooting them in the yard.
What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.
The cartridges used with shotguns are about the size of a small battery. Inside they contain a number of small pellets which upon firing expand outwards. Therefore if you are shooting a moving target eg bird you could potentially take it out without a direct hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpFlohCmYUk
My farmer friends tell me .22 rifles ae good for nothing! The cartridges are about the size of the tip of your little finger and you need to make a direct hit for a kill.
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Just remembered a neighbour of JB in Goldhanger states he heard a a shot that evening before he saw JB coming home. Care of CAL
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I should have said the order in which the victims were shot. Malcolm Fletcher said he thought the twins were shot last with Dr Vanezis saying the opposite ie first. I will quote from the book for you which most definitely deserves a like:
Page 416:
"Not all those consulted agree on every point of the above. Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel. However, pathologist Peter Vanezis is of the opinion that the twins may have been first to die. And no one is able to satisfactorily explain the burn marks on Nevill's back.
What does this tell you? It tells me the pair are/were hopeless:
1. It seems obvious June was initially shot 6 times and NB 4 times?
2. Dr Vanezis said SC's second gsw happened within a few seconds of the first gsw:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
According to MF above, JB shot SC once, went off to kill NB in the kitchen and then returned to fatally shoot SC.
3. Why on earth would JB murder the completely defenceless twins before dealing with NB arguably his greatest adversary?
Speaking to people many years later is worthless unless you also refresh their memories in full. Many years later people involved in a case will have less command of the facts than people who study the case. That Fletcher did not remember the theory offered at trial and all the evidence that formed the basis and thus came up with something knew means little.
If Fletcher read all my points and thus was reminded of all the attendant facts then he likely would have agreed with the assessment made at trial. Only 1 shot was fired at June at a different time than the other 6, the shot between her eyes. Only if the gun had 11 rounds could Jeremy have shot June and Nevill and still had 1 bullet left to use on Sheila. The notion Jeremy had 1 bullet left but let Nevill go downstairs unmolested and decided to wake Sheila to kill her in the bedroom with June still moving around is absurd. It is absurd to think that Jeremy would not fear him calling the police. Just as absurd if not moreso is the fact that if Nevill were given enough time he could load some shotguns and come shoot Jeremy. If Fletcher were reminded of these things it would have a big impact on things.
Vanezis's opinion is worthless as to who was shot first he knew nothing about guns and didn't take into account any of the reloading issues or anything else. He didn't even try to make an assessment in 1985 let alone would he have any realistic chance now. Now he isn't even of any use as to the injuries he observed or condition of the bodies because his memory is shot. At trial he noted Sheila had blood on the outer palm, wrist area and outside of her hands but not the inside palm and inside fingers. He forgot this and thus when CAL showed photos of blood on the outside of her hand and said he wrote in his autopsy report she was free of blood he erroneously thought he meant even the outside of her hands were free of blood. He failed to recall his trial testimony and CAL didn't show him his trial testimony which is what she should have done. You want a witness to try to refresh their memory. He ended up saying maybe he meant there was no blood after he washed her. His suggestion is absurd. Why would any coroner was blood from a body then write in their autopsy that the body was free of blood after being washed? The report is to detail the condition of the body before washing.
The assessment I provided is the assessment that was figured out by using all the available evidence as a whole. In legal mumbo jumbo it is an assessment based on "the totality of the circumstances". When speaking to CAL neither Vanezis nor Fletcher took the totality of the circumstances into account. Vanezis never did even in 1985 and Fletcher couldn't remember everything anymore. As you point out Fletcher didn't even remember that Vanezis said both shots to Sheila were fired in very close proximity in time and thus didn't see a problem with suggesting after shooting her the kitchen struggle occurred. He didn't remember where the wounds were and casings either thus was unaware how silly it is to claim 2 shots into June were fired substantially later than the others. Fletcher's contemporaneous judgment is way off too though not just poor recollection. Nevill wasn't alone in the kitchen for several minutes trying to use the phone, it would have been covered in blood. He would have at minimum grabbed a knife if not a shotgun if given the chance. Suggesting Jeremy gave him that leeway to go wake Sheila to kill her is absurd.
That people can come up with ill advised suggestions years later when their memory is foggy or (even at the time not just later) because they fail to adequately consider everything dispositive means very little except that you have to make sure experts are made aware of everything and take into account everything. When lawyers consult experts they often have to point out all the issues to them and make sure their assessments cover all the bases. Sometimes they make really stupid mistakes. I had an expert accidentally using the gram side of a hand scale who was calling the results OZ instead. 10oz is a hell of a lot more than 10 grams. While I can understand people making simple mistakes, people should recognize there is a problem when there is a disconnect.
I knew just from the context and weight in my hand that something had to be wrong but this expert didn't realize there was a problem with how heavy he was claiming it was. You have to thoroughly test claims to make sure they are accurate. Doing so in this case results in the suggestion amde at trial which I posted and explained why it is valid and supported.
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Speaking to people many years later is worthless unless you also refresh their memories in full. Many years later people involved in a case will have less command of the facts than people who study the case. That Fletcher did not remember the theory offered at trial and all the evidence that formed the basis and thus came up with something knew means little.
If Fletcher read all my points and thus was reminded of all the attendant facts then he likely would have agreed with the assessment made at trial. Only 1 shot was fired at June at a different time than the other 6, the shot between her eyes. Only if the gun had 11 rounds could Jeremy have shot June and Nevill and still had 1 bullet left to use on Sheila. The notion Jeremy had 1 bullet left but let Nevill go downstairs unmolested and decided to wake Sheila to kill her in the bedroom with June still moving around is absurd. It is absurd to think that Jeremy would not fear him calling the police. Just as absurd if not moreso is the fact that if Nevill were given enough time he could load some shotguns and come shoot Jeremy. If Fletcher were reminded of these things it would have a big impact on things.
Vanezis's opinion is worthless as to who was shot first he knew nothing about guns and didn't take into account any of the reloading issues or anything else. He didn't even try to make an assessment in 1985 let alone would he have any realistic chance now. Now he isn't even of any use as to the injuries he observed or condition of the bodies because his memory is shot. At trial he noted Sheila had blood on the outer palm, wrist area and outside of her hands but not the inside palm and inside fingers. He forgot this and thus when CAL showed photos of blood on the outside of her hand and said he wrote in his autopsy report she was free of blood he erroneously thought he meant even the outside of her hands were free of blood. He failed to recall his trial testimony and CAL didn't show him his trial testimony which is what she should have done. You want a witness to try to refresh their memory. He ended up saying maybe he meant there was no blood after he washed her. His suggestion is absurd. Why would any coroner was blood from a body then write in their autopsy that the body was free of blood after being washed? The report is to detail the condition of the body before washing.
The assessment I provided is the assessment that was figured out by using all the available evidence as a whole. In legal mumbo jumbo it is an assessment based on "the totality of the circumstances". When speaking to CAL neither Vanezis nor Fletcher took the totality of the circumstances into account. Vanezis never did even in 1985 and Fletcher couldn't remember everything anymore. As you point out Fletcher didn't even remember that Vanezis said both shots to Sheila were fired in very close proximity in time and thus didn't see a problem with suggesting after shooting her the kitchen struggle occurred. He didn't remember where the wounds were and casings either thus was unaware how silly it is to claim 2 shots into June were fired substantially later than the others. Fletcher's contemporaneous judgment is way off too though not just poor recollection. Nevill wasn't alone in the kitchen for several minutes trying to use the phone, it would have been covered in blood. He would have at minimum grabbed a knife if not a shotgun if given the chance. Suggesting Jeremy gave him that leeway to go wake Sheila to kill her is absurd.
That people can come up with ill advised suggestions years later when their memory is foggy or (even at the time not just later) because they fail to adequately consider everything dispositive means very little except that you have to make sure experts are made aware of everything and take into account everything. When lawyers consult experts they often have to point out all the issues to them and make sure their assessments cover all the bases. Sometimes they make really stupid mistakes. I had an expert accidentally using the gram side of a hand scale who was calling the results OZ instead. 10oz is a hell of a lot more than 10 grams. While I can understand people making simple mistakes, people should recognize there is a problem when there is a disconnect.
I knew just from the context and weight in my hand that something had to be wrong but this expert didn't realize there was a problem with how heavy he was claiming it was. You have to thoroughly test claims to make sure they are accurate. Doing so in this case results in the suggestion amde at trial which I posted and explained why it is valid and supported.
It gets worse I'm afraid. The following is from the official police account of how JB killed hiis family. It's contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial. Acknowledging that the order of deaths could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
"...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head,one into Sheila's head - were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area andthe two to the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway."
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How do you know he was "not known to EVER shoot vermin"? The only reliable witness likely to be able to confirm or deny this would surely be NB?
He said the box was "nearly full". There's no way of knowing how many = "nearly full" but more importantly there were hundreds of rounds elsewhere in the farmhouse and we've no way of knowing where the perp accessed them from: elsewhere or the "nearly full" box.
Entirely full is 50 rounds. Near full is less than 50 rounds. So the maximum number of rounds he took out was 50. The maximum of 50-25= 25 so for his story to be true there should have been no more than 25 rounds left in the kitchen. There were 30. The only other 22LR ammunition in the house was in the office closet. The notion any killer used some rounds from next to the phone and with 30 still remaining decided to stop using such supply but rather instead go to get some additional bullets from the closet is not the least bit credible. When confronted with this Jeremy could not even make up some lie to account for it. Even at trial he still could not think up a lie to account for it nor could his lawyers.
Neither Jeremy's family nor the farm workers who he worked with knew him to shoot vermin period let alone was he in the habit of running to the house to arm himself upon seeing rabbits. People who kill vermin carry weapons with them so that in the event they encounter vermin they can kill them. They don't run to load a weapon and hope the animals will still be in the same spot minutes later. Just seeing people move will make vermin run.
Jeremy's tale was that he was inside as the family ate a later dinner with the boys already in bed. He was present as they chatted then went outside during the twilight hours to check on something and saw bunnies by the potato shed and decided to get the gun to shoot them. He was not known to ever do this let alone to do it at twilight hours. His story only gets worse. He claims he was in a big hurry but instead of loading the magazine in the office he took the ammo box and magazine into the kitchen, dumped the bullets out by the phone and loaded the magazine. Why would someone in a rush take the extra time to go to the kitchen to load it? His answer was pathetic- because he always would load it in the kitchen instead of the office. This was in keeping with his original fairytale that he left the gun and magazine in the kitchen. This fairytale (which he slightly changed to leaving the gun and magazine on the settle near the back door) and other things he said were intended to get police to think Sheila and Nevill were arguing, Sheila grabbed the weapon of opportunity, Nevill called for help then she disconnected the call attacking Nevill. Taff Jones fell hook line and sinker for it. Taff Jones ignored every red flag that popped up. Even after Jeremy was unable to account for why there were too many bullets left and it was determined that Nevill was attacked in the master bedroom he still didn't change his views. Even after it was determined the window could be opened and locked from the outside he failed to change his view. Since he died we don't know whether he changed his views after Julie came forward and the moderator evidence was understood. He did interrogate Jeremy after such so it is possible he changed his views but he wasn't the head honcho in charge of the case at that point so maybe he just did it because he had to. We have no way to know whether he remained delusional to his death even after the most damning evidence came to light or whether he "saw the light".
His story that he found the gun without the moderator and scope attached are also not credible. The scope and moderator were left attached. There was no need to remove the scope even during cleaning. The moderator would be removed during cleaning but that is it. The weapon was so dirty inside that in all likelihood it had never been cleaned. Less than 150 rounds had been put through it between the time it was purchased Nov 30, 1984 and the time of the murders. The only reason to remove the scope would be if one plans to use it at close quarters. Quite clearly he removed the scope in anticipation of the murders. He wanted to and did use the moderator. After the murders he removed it and put it away and made up the story that the gun was left out without it or the scope attached so police would not inquire about the scope and moderator. He lied telling police it didn't fit in the closet with the scope and moderator attached this was his excuse for why it lacked them and he said he was in a rush so didn't take the time to attach them. When this lie was refuted by his family he lied yet again saying he meant it didn't fit in its case with the scope and moderator attached. The lie was that there was no case Nevill didn't purchase a hard case for it. His lies were to try to come up with a bogus excuse for the gun not having the scope and moderator on it when he would go to get it. You don't consider these lies important but they are circumstantial evidence against him. When this is compounded upon all the other evidence it all is complementary and builds an ironclad case against Jeremy which is why he has no hope of ever getting out.
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Entirely full is 50 rounds. Near full is less than 50 rounds. So the maximum number of rounds he took out was 50. The maximum of 50-25= 25 so for his story to be true there should have been no more than 25 rounds left in the kitchen. There were 30. The only other 22LR ammunition in the house was in the office closet. The notion any killer used some rounds from next to the phone and with 30 still remaining decided to stop using such supply but rather instead go to get some additional bullets from the closet is not the least bit credible. When confronted with this Jeremy could not even make up some lie to account for it. Even at trial he still could not think up a lie to account for it nor could his lawyers.
Neither Jeremy's family nor the farm workers who he worked with knew him to shoot vermin period let alone was he in the habit of running to the house to arm himself upon seeing rabbits. People who kill vermin carry weapons with them so that in the event they encounter vermin they can kill them. They don't run to load a weapon and hope the animals will still be in the same spot minutes later. Just seeing people move will make vermin run.
Jeremy's tale was that he was inside as the family ate a later dinner with the boys already in bed. He was present as they chatted then went outside during the twilight hours to check on something and saw bunnies by the potato shed and decided to get the gun to shoot them. He was not known to ever do this let alone to do it at twilight hours. His story only gets worse. He claims he was in a big hurry but instead of loading the magazine in the office he took the ammo box and magazine into the kitchen, dumped the bullets out by the phone and loaded the magazine. Why would someone in a rush take the extra time to go to the kitchen to load it? His answer was pathetic- because he always would load it in the kitchen instead of the office. This was in keeping with his original fairytale that he left the gun and magazine in the kitchen. This fairytale (which he slightly changed to leaving the gun and magazine on the settle near the back door) and other things he said were intended to get police to think Sheila and Nevill were arguing, Sheila grabbed the weapon of opportunity, Nevill called for help then she disconnected the call attacking Nevill. Taff Jones fell hook line and sinker for it. Taff Jones ignored every red flag that popped up. Even after Jeremy was unable to account for why there were too many bullets left and it was determined that Nevill was attacked in the master bedroom he still didn't change his views. Even after it was determined the window could be opened and locked from the outside he failed to change his view. Since he died we don't know whether he changed his views after Julie came forward and the moderator evidence was understood. He did interrogate Jeremy after such so it is possible he changed his views but he wasn't the head honcho in charge of the case at that point so maybe he just did it because he had to. We have no way to know whether he remained delusional to his death even after the most damning evidence came to light or whether he "saw the light".
His story that he found the gun without the moderator and scope attached are also not credible. The scope and moderator were left attached. There was no need to remove the scope even during cleaning. The moderator would be removed during cleaning but that is it. The weapon was so dirty inside that in all likelihood it had never been cleaned. Less than 150 rounds had been put through it between the time it was purchased Nov 30, 1984 and the time of the murders. The only reason to remove the scope would be if one plans to use it at close quarters. Quite clearly he removed the scope in anticipation of the murders. He wanted to and did use the moderator. After the murders he removed it and put it away and made up the story that the gun was left out without it or the scope attached so police would not inquire about the scope and moderator. He lied telling police it didn't fit in the closet with the scope and moderator attached this was his excuse for why it lacked them and he said he was in a rush so didn't take the time to attach them. When this lie was refuted by his family he lied yet again saying he meant it didn't fit in its case with the scope and moderator attached. The lie was that there was no case Nevill didn't purchase a hard case for it. His lies were to try to come up with a bogus excuse for the gun not having the scope and moderator on it when he would go to get it. You don't consider these lies important but they are circumstantial evidence against him. When this is compounded upon all the other evidence it all is complementary and builds an ironclad case against Jeremy which is why he has no hope of ever getting out.
If JB left the rifle where he said he did it's unlikely NB left it there. Assuming NB returned it to the den/office the perp had to retrieve it from there which was the ammo was stored. I believe the shotgun was found broken in the den (broken as in broken open for loading) so there's nothing to say the perp couldn't or didn't take the ammo from there. As you have previously pointed out markings on some of the ammo showed it had been loaded and emptied. Quite possible NB emptied the magazine and the perp reloaded with ammo from the gun cupboard. Was this brought up at trial?
Is there any testimony from the farm workers saying they had never seen JB shoot vermin? It was well known he wasn't into shooting game and the like. How would the family know what he did day-to-day on the farm? The family had no idea about SC's mental illness and yet know whether or not JB takes pops at vermin?
He said he found the scope without sights and scope fitted. AP said the opposite when he saw it a week or so prior. Why should AP's version take precedence? He didn't need the sight and scope to take pops at bunnies around the barns. The rifle has a built in scope of sorts. The add on scope/sights obviously enables the user to zero in on targets at longer distance but how would one see bunnies in long grass at distance to even zero in on them? This is how it has been explained to me by my farming friends who have farmed all their lives for generations. They know nothing of my interest in JB's case so there's no reason for them to tell me anything other than their personal experiences and knowledge gleaned over decades.
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What is odd, was that he initially said he had shit the rifle then changed his mind (like you could forget), guess he realised there was no physical evidence of such shots being that he made up the story about the rabbits.
The lengths some people will go to to destroy evidence. Must have been a hard swallow?
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The cartridges used with shotguns are about the size of a small battery. Inside they contain a number of small pellets which upon firing expand outwards. Therefore if you are shooting a moving target eg bird you could potentially take it out without a direct hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpFlohCmYUk
My farmer friends tell me .22 rifles ae good for nothing! The cartridges are about the size of the tip of your little finger and you need to make a direct hit for a kill.
Oh dear Holly. First you call experts hopeless and now you refer to the size of bullets as small batteries and finger tips...that's so precise!
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The lengths some people will go to to destroy evidence. Must have been a hard swallow?
And an even harder pass.
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Entirely full is 50 rounds. Near full is less than 50 rounds. So the maximum number of rounds he took out was 50. The maximum of 50-25= 25 so for his story to be true there should have been no more than 25 rounds left in the kitchen. There were 30. The only other 22LR ammunition in the house was in the office closet. The notion any killer used some rounds from next to the phone and with 30 still remaining decided to stop using such supply but rather instead go to get some additional bullets from the closet is not the least bit credible. When confronted with this Jeremy could not even make up some lie to account for it. Even at trial he still could not think up a lie to account for it nor could his lawyers.
Neither Jeremy's family nor the farm workers who he worked with knew him to shoot vermin period let alone was he in the habit of running to the house to arm himself upon seeing rabbits. People who kill vermin carry weapons with them so that in the event they encounter vermin they can kill them. They don't run to load a weapon and hope the animals will still be in the same spot minutes later. Just seeing people move will make vermin run.
Jeremy's tale was that he was inside as the family ate a later dinner with the boys already in bed. He was present as they chatted then went outside during the twilight hours to check on something and saw bunnies by the potato shed and decided to get the gun to shoot them. He was not known to ever do this let alone to do it at twilight hours. His story only gets worse. He claims he was in a big hurry but instead of loading the magazine in the office he took the ammo box and magazine into the kitchen, dumped the bullets out by the phone and loaded the magazine. Why would someone in a rush take the extra time to go to the kitchen to load it? His answer was pathetic- because he always would load it in the kitchen instead of the office. This was in keeping with his original fairytale that he left the gun and magazine in the kitchen. This fairytale (which he slightly changed to leaving the gun and magazine on the settle near the back door) and other things he said were intended to get police to think Sheila and Nevill were arguing, Sheila grabbed the weapon of opportunity, Nevill called for help then she disconnected the call attacking Nevill. Taff Jones fell hook line and sinker for it. Taff Jones ignored every red flag that popped up. Even after Jeremy was unable to account for why there were too many bullets left and it was determined that Nevill was attacked in the master bedroom he still didn't change his views. Even after it was determined the window could be opened and locked from the outside he failed to change his view. Since he died we don't know whether he changed his views after Julie came forward and the moderator evidence was understood. He did interrogate Jeremy after such so it is possible he changed his views but he wasn't the head honcho in charge of the case at that point so maybe he just did it because he had to. We have no way to know whether he remained delusional to his death even after the most damning evidence came to light or whether he "saw the light".
His story that he found the gun without the moderator and scope attached are also not credible. The scope and moderator were left attached. There was no need to remove the scope even during cleaning. The moderator would be removed during cleaning but that is it. The weapon was so dirty inside that in all likelihood it had never been cleaned. Less than 150 rounds had been put through it between the time it was purchased Nov 30, 1984 and the time of the murders. The only reason to remove the scope would be if one plans to use it at close quarters. Quite clearly he removed the scope in anticipation of the murders. He wanted to and did use the moderator. After the murders he removed it and put it away and made up the story that the gun was left out without it or the scope attached so police would not inquire about the scope and moderator. He lied telling police it didn't fit in the closet with the scope and moderator attached this was his excuse for why it lacked them and he said he was in a rush so didn't take the time to attach them. When this lie was refuted by his family he lied yet again saying he meant it didn't fit in its case with the scope and moderator attached. The lie was that there was no case Nevill didn't purchase a hard case for it. His lies were to try to come up with a bogus excuse for the gun not having the scope and moderator on it when he would go to get it. You don't consider these lies important but they are circumstantial evidence against him. When this is compounded upon all the other evidence it all is complementary and builds an ironclad case against Jeremy which is why he has no hope of ever getting out.
When concocting lies it is the little details which catch people out every time.
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If JB left the rifle where he said he did it's unlikely NB left it there. Assuming NB returned it to the den/office the perp had to retrieve it from there which was the ammo was stored. I believe the shotgun was found broken in the den (broken as in broken open for loading) so there's nothing to say the perp couldn't or didn't take the ammo from there. As you have previously pointed out markings on some of the ammo showed it had been loaded and emptied. Quite possible NB emptied the magazine and the perp reloaded with ammo from the gun cupboard. Was this brought up at trial?
Is there any testimony from the farm workers saying they had never seen JB shoot vermin? It was well known he wasn't into shooting game and the like. How would the family know what he did day-to-day on the farm? The family had no idea about SC's mental illness and yet know whether or not JB takes pops at vermin?
He said he found the scope without sights and scope fitted. AP said the opposite when he saw it a week or so prior. Why should AP's version take precedence? He didn't need the sight and scope to take pops at bunnies around the barns. The rifle has a built in scope of sorts. The add on scope/sights obviously enables the user to zero in on targets at longer distance but how would one see bunnies in long grass at distance to even zero in on them? This is how it has been explained to me by my farming friends who have farmed all their lives for generations. They know nothing of my interest in JB's case so there's no reason for them to tell me anything other than their personal experiences and knowledge gleaned over decades.
Neville Bamber would never have left a rifle out with young children in the house, Jeremy Bambers story was such a load of old bull.
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There are too many unlikely events in the pre massacre scene Bamber sets -
He sees rabbitts. Although it's either dark or getting dark.
He decides to go and attempt to shoot them. To benefit the parents he hates ?
He does not attach the silencer. Meaning the rabbits are more likely to disperse upon one shot.
He fully loads the rifle. Although he will only get one realistic shot.
He goes outside and all the rabbits have gone ? Or he saw them and simply didn't fire any bullets.
He didn't take a few seconds to put the rifle back where he found it. Which surely people would do 9 times out of 10. And has never given a reason.
Neville and June either did not see the rifle sprawled across an area they were in. Or did see it and still left it out.
Sheila got the rifle....
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Oh dear Holly. First you call experts hopeless and now you refer to the size of bullets as small batteries and finger tips...that's so precise!
Oh dear indeed...I assume on this occasion Angelo my post isn't going to get a 'like' from you 8(8-))
I refer to the experts as hopeless for good reason: Malcolm Fletcher and The Director for Public Prosecutions claim JB shot SC once upstairs before going to the kitchen to reload the rifle, shoot NB a further four times, engage in some sort of struggle over the rifle and then return upstairs to shoot SC for a second time. However Dr Vanezis states:
"Furthermore in my view the second wound taken into consideration with the factors mentioned above must have been within a few seconds of the first wound".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
So we have the so-called ballistics expert, Malcolm Fletcher, and The Director of Prosecution holding views completely at odds with the pathological evidence.
A shotgun cartridge is about the size of a small battery. Approx AA but a bit shorter and wider. I provided a link to a youtube vid to demo. Caro has said numerous times she has small hands (in connection with her research into the 'bible/handprint'). Small hands = usually small fingers, so to illustrate the size of .22 in relation to the shotgun cartridge I likened it to the tip of her small finger!
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There are too many unlikely events in the pre massacre scene Bamber sets -
He sees rabbitts. Although it's either dark or getting dark.
He decides to go and attempt to shoot them. To benefit the parents he hates ?
He does not attach the silencer. Meaning the rabbits are more likely to disperse upon one shot.
He fully loads the rifle. Although he will only get one realistic shot.
He goes outside and all the rabbits have gone ? Or he saw them and simply didn't fire any bullets.
He didn't take a few seconds to put the rifle back where he found it. Which surely people would do 9 times out of 10. And has never given a reason.
Neville and June either did not see the rifle sprawled across an area they were in. Or did see it and still left it out.
Sheila got the rifle....
If you speak with farmers I think you will find that most of the above are everyday occurrences and nothing out of the ordinary.
If he didn't use the rifle as he said he did what possible advantage was there in saying it? For those who think JB is guilty I could see an advantage if the firearms and ammo were stored securely but given they were accessible to anyone inside the property then I really struggle to see the point.
The same applies to the fact he claims he left the rifle out. It seems obvious to me NB would return it to the den/gun cupboard. If JB said he left after everyone was in bed and he left the rifle out then this potentially would be different.
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It gets worse I'm afraid. The following is from the official police account of how JB killed hiis family. It's contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial. Acknowledging that the order of deaths could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
"...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head,one into Sheila's head - were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area andthe two to the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway."
Even this ill advised account features Nevill being shot 4 times upstairs and the casing being transferred from the kitchen to the landing. It's doesn't help you in any appreciable way.
It is an account from unspecified police not forensic experts. Police stupidly suggested that Jeremy still had 1 bullet left but instead of firing it at Nevill he let Nevill escape downstairs and was unconcerned of his whereabouts. This is absurd. The notion he would have no concerns about Nevill calling 999 or grabbing a shotgun and trying to shoot him is absurd. He could even get out of the house and run for help. He needed Nevill dead to inherit and also to get away with the other murders. To let Nevill escape so Jeremy could go wake Sheila and drag her to the bedroom to shoot her is nonsense. Aside from it being absurd we know it didn't happen because Nevill would have had several minutes to try to use the phone or arm himself yet he failed to do either. He just went in the kitchen and waited for Jeremy to come fight with him? Nonsense! Moreover, Jeremy was scared police would be able to tell who died first and last. If it were figured out that Sheila died before others that would harm his whole plot of framing her. Moreover, if she died before her kids that would make them the beneficiaries of June and Nevill and their share would go to their father. So he needed Sheila to die last from the inheritance perspective as well as the for the sake of his framing efforts.
The police suggested a number of stupid things in this case that failed to hold up. It can be chalked up to ignorance or even incompetence.
Most of the shots June suffered were to her right side. The killer was angled to the right of her as firing the rifle for 6 of the 7 shots. The bullets traveled right to left in her body. The police recognized the 5 non-head shots were fired in part of the initial burst. 3 of these exited the body into the bed and the other 2 remained in the body but were fired at angles that preclude the killer walking in the room and simply firing straight at her. Moreover, the 2 that remained in her body caused extensive internal bleeding because her heart was still pumping at the time and she was walking around after these 2 shots were fired.
In order to advance their stupid idea that Jeremy let Nevill be for a while and went to get Sheila they suggested that both shots to June's head were both delivered after she was out of bed when the killer returned upstairs. First of all this is a stupid suggestion because if June had not yet suffered a head wound she would not have simply stayed in the bedroom waiting for Jeremy to drag Sheila in and sit there watching him shoot Sheila then to wait for Jeremy to reload and return. She would have left the room like Nevill did. She would have either tried to go help the twins or to help call for help. Worse yet, the blood on her pillow proves June's head was against the pillow while it was bleeding thus she was in bed when shot in the head.
That severe head wound is why June was never able to make it out of the room. She walked to the other side then collapsed before she could make it out. Jeremy returned and shot her between the eyes to make sure she was dead. He didn't return and find her collapsed then shoot her in the side of her chest and between her eyes, he simply shot her between her eyes.
Both chest wounds have feature a right to left trajectory. The killer and June were both in about the same place when both shots were fired. One entrance wound was higher than the other so it went right to left through the upper lung lodging in between Thoracic Vertebrae 3 and 4 while the other went through the lower lung lodging in Thoracic Vertebra 9. The killer had to be to the forward right of June to be able to deliver these shots. If June had a clock implanted on the top of her head the killer would be between 7 O'Clock and 8:45.
This shows how both chest wounds hit the edge of her body:
(http://s32.postimg.org/vv5c3y8p1/junebodydiagram.jpg)
This shows the approximate location where the shooter would have to be:
(http://s32.postimg.org/8pcql4o05/aerialviewwoman.jpg)
This trajectory lines up with June being on the bed or next to the bed while the killer was at the foot of the bed. The trajectory is not consistent with someone walking back in the room and shooting June to make sure she is dead only the shot between her eyes is consistent with such.
Time and again I have pointed out that the "WHY" is key. What people believe is not important at all. What matters is the why. The why will answer whether the position is credible and supported or not. That people sometimes advance notions that are not supported and incredible merely means people sometimes advance irrational erroneous things.
A totality of the circumstances analysis takes into account everything that is relevant. It doesn't look at limited points in isolation it looks at everything in complete context. When one does that they with respect to this case in order to assess what happens they are left with the shooter attacking Nevill and June, firing 6 shots into June and 4 into Nevill till the gun is empty, the killer running to the kitchen to reload with Nevill following or Nevill somehow getting past the killer and going to the kitchen to try to arm himself, use the phone or get out the door to go summon help, but the killer pursuing him and preventing him from doing any of these things, the killer knocking Nevill out then reloading and shooting him 4 more times, reloading fully so the gun has 11 rounds then going upstairs and using 1 on June between her eyes to make sure she is dead, 8 on the boys and 2 on Sheila.
That police ignored so many things to make stupid suggestions doesn't make their stupid suggestions logical or possible it just scares one that they can be so inept. That doesn't instill great confidence. The kinds of mistakes they made with regard to analyzing the order of the shots could not only result in criminals getting away but can result in charging an innocent person in some instances.
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Oh dear indeed...I assume on this occasion Angelo my post isn't going to get a 'like' from you 8(8-))
I refer to the experts as hopeless for good reason: Malcolm Fletcher and The Director for Public Prosecutions claim JB shot SC once upstairs before going to the kitchen to reload the rifle, shoot NB a further four times, engage in some sort of struggle over the rifle and then return upstairs to shoot SC for a second time. However Dr Vanezis states:
"Furthermore in my view the second wound taken into consideration with the factors mentioned above must have been within a few seconds of the first wound".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
So we have the so-called ballistics expert, Malcolm Fletcher, and The Director of Prosecution holding views completely at odds with the pathological evidence.
A shotgun cartridge is about the size of a small battery. Approx AA but a bit shorter and wider. I provided a link to a youtube vid to demo. Caro has said numerous times she has small hands (in connection with her research into the 'bible/handprint'). Small hands = usually small fingers, so to illustrate the size of .22 in relation to the shotgun cartridge I likened it to the tip of her small finger!
It is at odds with the pathological evidence for additional reasons and worse it is absurd. It is absurd to suggest that Jeremy would let Nevill escape without firing the final shot at him and to leave Nevill alone for several minutes to use the phone or load a shotgun so that Jeremy could grab Sheila and drag her to the bedroom to shoot her as June is still there walking around.
Not to defend Fletcher since absurd is absurd regardless of passage of time, but after nearly 30 years Fletcher didn't remember the evidence anymore. The Director of Prosecution was not an expert and simply ignorant all the way around.
What I did was to take into account all the evidence. You are busy trashing claims that you admit are wrong instead of dealing with the points I made which was well supported and based on the totality of the evidence.
The evidence shows the shooter was at the foot of the bed firing at June's right side and Nevill's left. Nevill suffered 4 shots to his left and June 6 to her right. The ten casings associated with these shots were in the bedroom where they would be expected to be based on a shooter being in such position shooting at them.
The 2 parents were the greatest threat hence why they were to be killed first.
His plan of killing them easily didn't work out. Both got up out of bed and after the weapon was empty either either went to try to disarm him with him running away to try to reload or somehow managed to fight past him to get out of the room. Nevill didn't bleed on the phone so he never got to the phone nor did he manage to get to a shotgun. Either Jeremy was in close pursuit and caught him in the kitchen or Nevill was in close pursuit and caught Jeremy in the kitchen. Nevill was bashed unconscious so Jeremy could reload safely then he shot Nevill 4 times more. Then he reloaded the magazine fully and went upstairs and fired 8 shots into the boys, 2 into sheila and June in unknown order.
While it has been documented that even after 4 plus shots drawback can still remain in a weapon it is rather unlikely that there would still be the amount of blood near the opening that was present had a sizable number of shots been fired after sheila was killed. Thus in all likelihood sheila was shot last. If it could be determined Sheila died before the boys this could ruin him getting the full inheritance and even worse could ruin his efforts to pretend Sheila was the killer. In addition to such considerations it makes more sense to kill the boys and then deal with sheila so they don't have a chance to wake up and escape if she screams. Whether he shot June between the eyes before or after the boys there is simply no way to know. It is just as logical that such was done after killing the boys as before and the physical evidence shed's no light either.
Jeremy goes upstairs, checks to make sure June is dead and fires one between her eyes to make sure then goes to kill the boys and then goes to get sheila..
Jeremy goes upstairs and kills the boys then thinks June is still breathing so fires a shot between her eyes then goes to get sheila.
Neither scenario is substantially more likely than the other.
It's not impossible that there was substantially more blood in the moderator and that 8-9 shots were fired after Sheila was killed and thus the amount of blood was reduced by the additional shots causing some of the blood to exit but I still think it unlikely there would be blood right inside the opening if that were the case. So in all likelihood based on everything Sheila was shot last.
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Sorry....wrote the post below before seeing that Scipio had posted....Probably all been discussed before....just my thoughts though.
Lets assume first JB was setting up the murders to point finger at SC
Gun has to be accessible. Could have been in cupboard but then SC would have to find the right ammo and the right Gun…not a shotgun! SC doesn’t know that much about guns. No problem if gun in cupboard for JB
JB statement about the rabbits gives reason for RIFLE to be in back hall with magazine, so handy for SC! Why not use shotgun to kill rabbits? Regardless if NB put it away if it was left out, the implication of the rifle being left there is set.
More bullets on kitchen top …. AVAILABLE to SC. Irrespective of whether this actually happened at the time the seed of doubt is set regarding SC having immediate access to them. JB’s fingerprint was found on Gun….did he know this maybe the case? Another reason for saying he had used the gun himself that day.
SC’ GUILT.
SC goes downstairs and finds rifle in cupboard/ back hall in a hysterical state she calmly loads magazine. Goes upstairs and shoots JB. 6 times we are then to believe NB awakes and is shot 4 times
By the daughter who adored him. Gun now empty. SC returns downstairs with father in pursuit. NB rings JB to say that SC has gone mad…..(but he can’t talk owing to gun shot wounds to jaw!.) In the meantime SC has reloaded the rifle and attacks father……why wouldn’t NB try to get rifle off of her….immobilized? Then how come he supposedly spoke on phone? Perhaps he did! In which case when does NB make the phone call and be able to speak….After she has shot him again?
I personally still think there was an argument that evening at the farm between NB and JB….nothing new there then! The discussion about the twins being fostered made up by JB to give reason for SC’s hysterical behaviour later that night. Strange then is the fact that PB rang farm just before 10 pm spoke to SC who was just off to bed and JB who was also calm. Three statements by JB all that point to SC committing murders, and all lies!! I would be interested in other theories.
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Sorry....wrote the post below before seeing that Scipio had posted....Probably all been discussed before....just my thoughts though.
Lets assume first JB was setting up the murders to point finger at SC
Gun has to be accessible. Could have been in cupboard but then SC would have to find the right ammo and the right Gun…not a shotgun! SC doesn’t know that much about guns.
JB statement about the rabbits gives reason for RIFLE to be in back hall with magazine, so handy! Why not use shotgun to kill rabbits? Regardless if NB put it away if it was left out, the implication of the rifle being left there is set.
More bullets on kitchen top …. AVAILABLE to SC. Irrespective of whether this actually happened at the time the seed of doubt is set regarding SC having immediate access to them. JB’s fingerprint was found on Gun….did he know this maybe the case? Another reason for saying he had used the gun himself that day.
SC’ GUILT.
SC goes downstairs and finds rifle in cupboard/ back hall in a hysterical state she calmly loads magazine. Goes upstairs and shoots JB. 6 times we are then to believe NB awakes and is shot 4 times
By the daughter who adored him. Gun now empty. SC returns downstairs with father in pursuit. NB rings JB to say that SC has gone mad…..(but he can’t talk owing to gun shot wounds to jaw.) In the meantime SC has reloaded the rifle and attacks father……why wouldn’t NB try to get rifle off of her….immobilized? Then how come he supposedly spoke on phone? Perhaps he did! In which case when does NB make the phone call and be able to speak….After she has shot him again?
I personally still think there was an argument that evening at the farm between NB and JB….nothing new there then! The discussion about the twins being fostered made up by JB to give reason for SC’s hysterical behaviour later that night. Strange then is the fact that PB rang farm just before 10 pm spoke to SC who was just off to bed and JB who was also calm. Three statements by JB all that point to SC committing murders, and all lies!! I would be interested in other theories.
One of Murphy's laws of combat is that no plan survives first contact intact. First contact is when you first meet the enemy. This is traceable to what von Moltke the elder said which is no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy. What this means is that a battle plan will never be able to predict every variable and there will always need to be some improvisation based on the conditions encountered.
Jeremy didn't plan for Nevill to escape to the kitchen. He planned to kill both parents in the bedroom. Nevill escaped to the kitchen and he did what he had to do based on the circumstances which was to bash Nevill till he was unconscious so Jeremy would be able to reload and then kill Nevill.
Some of the things Jeremy did for staging purposes were less than clear such as the Bible and marks on Nevill's back. We are at a distinct disadvantage in comprehending what his intentions were because he failed to tell Julie about such things. Prior to the murders he gave her a broad view what his plans were but only some of the finer details. He talking about his plan to say he received a phone call from WHF, using a bike as transport and using the windows but nothing about the order in which he would attack anyone or other very specific details.
That being the case we can't assess how many things Jeremy improvised at the time based on the circumstances in which he found himself. Necessity is the mother of invention.
It seems intuitive that if Jeremy managed to kill them in the bedroom he would have restored the phone in order to pretend Nevill used that phone to call Jerey form the bedroom before the shooting started. That Nevill got away to the kitchen wound up causing him not to replace it to give the impression Nevill went to the kitchen and phoned him from there. This minor thing caused great problems. Questions raised by this resulted in Jeremy lying saying the kitchen phone broke though it didn't. It was found hidden and when it was discovered he lied again saying it was just a spare. Had he been able to replace the phone after the murders then these lies never would have occurred.
That is just one example of how a minor thing you did not plan on can end up biting you in the butt.
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I agree, some of JB's statements had to be made up as the events unfurled. He must of made some plans of some sorts on that night though. The phone...here again I agree, I was thinking the phone that was hidden ( and worked perfectly) was in it's correct place in the kitchen that night. Leaving the cream phone up in the bedroom.....Could this have been where June B. was heading before she collapsed? But as Neville was killed in the kitchen Jeremy B had to bring the cream phone downstairs to imply that NB had used it from the kitchen?
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I agree, some of JB's statements had to be made up as the events unfurled. He must of made some plans of some sorts on that night though. The phone...here again I agree, I was thinking the phone that was hidden ( and worked perfectly) was in it's correct place in the kitchen that night. Leaving the cream phone up in the bedroom.....Could this have been where June B. was heading before she collapsed? But as Neville was killed in the kitchen Jeremy B had to bring the cream phone downstairs to imply that NB had used it from the kitchen?
The issues related to the phone are only fully understood by people who study the case in depth. The bedroom phone was relocated to the kitchen prior to the murders. A witness (Pike) saw it there on Monday August 5 when he retrieved the cordless phone and phone jack splitter. Jeremy could have hid it earlier that day or sometime over the weekend. We only know it was by that time that it had been replaced. The primary reason he didn't want a phone in the bedroom was out of fear that the parents would hear him entering and call the police. He figured after the murders he could put it back in the bedroom and pretend the call was made from there. Nevill being killed in the kitchen forced him to not replace the bedroom phone.
There are 2 reasons why he didn't replace it. One is that it would look weird for Nevill to go to the kitchen to use the phone if the bedroom had a phone to use. The second reason is in some ways more significant. The touchtone phone had a memory function allowing one to discover the last phone number dialed. I tried to find out whether the function told not only the number but time of the last call but no one has been able to answer that. Materials that describe the phone's function don't tell what the memory does in detail. The rotary phone was basic it had no memory of any kind so there would be no way to disprove Jeremy's claims by testing the phone itself.
Jeremy didn't think anyone would say anything about the phone so didn't worry about it at all and left it hidden in a place where it wound up being found. When it was found it was tested and was found to be working thus proving him a liar about it being broken. His clumsy way to account for it not being broken was to lie and say it was not the former kitchen phone but rather just a spare. Wile that kind of a lie could have worked with police because they didn't know any better it failed with the farm secretary and housekeeper because they had personal experience with the phones and knew what it really was. It just goes to show you how simple details can screw you up. The bullet issue was rather simple too. He didn't consider that he had better make sure there were not too many bullets staged or it would make him a liar. It's easy to miss little things like that.
Not taking the moderator off before shooting Sheila was a huge mistake but he knew nothing about drawback and thus didn't consider the need to remove it prior to shooting her. You only can plan for things you comprehend and know about and you can still forget and mess up in the moment because of stress or changed circumstances.
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The police version is that on the night Bamber realised the rifle with the silencer on was too long for Sheila to shoot herself. So he took it off. But if he was not aware of back splatter why didn't he just leave the silencer next to Sheila ? Lots of reasons actually and there is a thread on the Blue forum.
However it's just as likely he took the silencer off in the kitchen. Deciding it will be more effective to burn Neville's back with the rifle end minus the silencer. People would then ask why the silencer was in the kitchen but not attached to the rifle ? So he simply put the silencer away rather than back onto the rifle.
Bamber would be hoping that Neville's burn marks would not be investigated. But if they were and it was determined the marks were made from the end of the rifle minus a silencer (which they were), the police would ask why the rifle had the silencer attached. So he put the silencer away, almost out of site. Not bothering to clean it as he was not aware of back splatter or expecting the police to take it. They didn't.
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There is no proof whatsoever the burn marks, if that's what they are, were produced by the rifle. What sort of idiot assassin would waste time heating up the end in the AGA and branding Nevill purely to inflict some sadistic revenge, or even to test if he was dead?... the four bullets to his head were confirmation of that. This was just another misleading ruse created by Bamber's lawyer and supporters to get him released.
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There is no proof whatsoever the burn marks, if that's what they are, were produced by the rifle. What sort of idiot assassin would waste time heating up the end in the AGA and branding Nevill purely to inflict some sadistic revenge, or even to test if he was dead?... the four bullets to his head were confirmation of that. This was just another misleading ruse created by Bamber's lawyer and supporters to get him released.
What were the burn marks from then ? Even Bamber's experts say they are from the rifle without the silencer on.
I don't believe Bamber did this to Neville to be sadistic. He had already been sadistic enough in shooting him upstairs and brutally beating him downstairs. He did it to check for signs of life. Maybe before he fired the kitchen shots into him.
Why didn't he do the same with everyone else ? Thread already on the Blue forum.
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What were the burn marks from then ? Even Bamber's experts say they are from the rifle without the silencer on.
I don't believe Bamber did this to Neville to be sadistic. He had already been sadistic enough in shooting him upstairs and brutally beating him downstairs. He did it to check for signs of life. Maybe before he fired the kitchen shots into him.
Why didn't he do the same with everyone else ? Thread already on the Blue forum.
We've no idea how the burn marks originated, Adam, and it's pointless trying to speculate anymore, since the Appeal Court have rejected the CT's crazy theory.
You select an "expert" with some bias towards your cause and pay him what you want him to say, as in the polygraph test.
The quickest way to ensure there was no sign of life was not to mess around heating up a rifle for god knows how long, but to fire more shots into the victim. Besides, he had to return upstairs asap and deal with Sheila and the boys.
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We've no idea how the burn marks originated, Adam, and it's pointless trying to speculate anymore, since the Appeal Court have rejected the CT's crazy theory.
You select an "expert" with some bias towards your cause and pay him what you want him to say, as in the polygraph test.
The quickest way to ensure there was no sign of life was not to mess around heating up a rifle for god knows how long, but to fire more shots into the victim. Besides, he had to return upstairs asap and deal with Sheila and the boys.
That's right, we've no idea. Well I have an idea. Which is the only logical one.
Neville sure didn't accidentially burn his own back. Three times in the same location. I wonder who did then ?
Bamber certainly burned Neville's back after going back upstairs to shoot everyone else. Sheila's blood was on the silencer. Maybe Neville was still alive in the kitchen and had moved slightly. Bamber deciding to shoot him again and check for signs of life with the rifle, when returning downstairs.
Neville was in the perfect postion for Bamber to burn his back.
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I should have said the High Court of Justice, where there was a judicial review of the CCRC's decision not to refer to the Court of Appeal.
Regarding the burn marks in the 2012 judgement:
This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view. There was in the kitchen an AGA. The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid. An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up. As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate. It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
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I should have said the High Court of Justice, where there was a judicial review of the CCRC's decision not to refer to the Court of Appeal.
Regarding the burn marks in the 2012 judgement:
This issue is not dealt with by the Commission, but I think it would be helpful to express a short view. There was in the kitchen an AGA. The mechanism that Mr Boyce suggests must imply the placing of the rifle barrel on a hot plate of the AGA, and by the hot plate of the AGA I mean that part that is normally used for cooking and which when it is not used for cooking can be covered by a lid. An AGA is not constructed so if a gun is leant against it, it will heat the barrel up. As Mr Boyce makes clear, it would have to be on the hot plate. It seems to me that if that further evidence had been before the Commission, although it would be a matter for them, it would seem very improbable that a barrel would have been heated in that way.
There's a reason we have wooden spoons for stirring when cooking and it isn't just so we don't scratch the inside of the pan with a metal spoon. A metal spoon will heat up very quickly and transfer heat to the hand. If someone attempted to heat the rifle in or on the Aga would the wooden stock prevent the heat travelling to the persons hand?
I just can't see JB or SC heating the rifle to then apply to NB to check for life.
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42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
The 2002 COA judgement said they were burn marks.
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It is at odds with the pathological evidence for additional reasons and worse it is absurd. It is absurd to suggest that Jeremy would let Nevill escape without firing the final shot at him and to leave Nevill alone for several minutes to use the phone or load a shotgun so that Jeremy could grab Sheila and drag her to the bedroom to shoot her as June is still there walking around.
Not to defend Fletcher since absurd is absurd regardless of passage of time, but after nearly 30 years Fletcher didn't remember the evidence anymore. The Director of Prosecution was not an expert and simply ignorant all the way around.
What I did was to take into account all the evidence. You are busy trashing claims that you admit are wrong instead of dealing with the points I made which was well supported and based on the totality of the evidence.
The evidence shows the shooter was at the foot of the bed firing at June's right side and Nevill's left. Nevill suffered 4 shots to his left and June 6 to her right. The ten casings associated with these shots were in the bedroom where they would be expected to be based on a shooter being in such position shooting at them.
The 2 parents were the greatest threat hence why they were to be killed first.
His plan of killing them easily didn't work out. Both got up out of bed and after the weapon was empty either either went to try to disarm him with him running away to try to reload or somehow managed to fight past him to get out of the room. Nevill didn't bleed on the phone so he never got to the phone nor did he manage to get to a shotgun. Either Jeremy was in close pursuit and caught him in the kitchen or Nevill was in close pursuit and caught Jeremy in the kitchen. Nevill was bashed unconscious so Jeremy could reload safely then he shot Nevill 4 times more. Then he reloaded the magazine fully and went upstairs and fired 8 shots into the boys, 2 into sheila and June in unknown order.
While it has been documented that even after 4 plus shots drawback can still remain in a weapon it is rather unlikely that there would still be the amount of blood near the opening that was present had a sizable number of shots been fired after sheila was killed. Thus in all likelihood sheila was shot last. If it could be determined Sheila died before the boys this could ruin him getting the full inheritance and even worse could ruin his efforts to pretend Sheila was the killer. In addition to such considerations it makes more sense to kill the boys and then deal with sheila so they don't have a chance to wake up and escape if she screams. Whether he shot June between the eyes before or after the boys there is simply no way to know. It is just as logical that such was done after killing the boys as before and the physical evidence shed's no light either.
Jeremy goes upstairs, checks to make sure June is dead and fires one between her eyes to make sure then goes to kill the boys and then goes to get sheila..
Jeremy goes upstairs and kills the boys then thinks June is still breathing so fires a shot between her eyes then goes to get sheila.
Neither scenario is substantially more likely than the other.
It's not impossible that there was substantially more blood in the moderator and that 8-9 shots were fired after Sheila was killed and thus the amount of blood was reduced by the additional shots causing some of the blood to exit but I still think it unlikely there would be blood right inside the opening if that were the case. So in all likelihood based on everything Sheila was shot last.
Although I don't believe JB was the perp, I agree with what you say in terms of if he was then not only is The Director of Public Prosecutions ignoring the pathological evidence but it makes no sense for JB to shoot SC allowing NB valuable time to arm himself and/or summon help.
I believe the reason DPP and Malcolm Fletcher have put forward this scenario is that without it they are left with what was SC doing when JB was in the kitchen beating and shooting NB.
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If you speak with farmers I think you will find that most of the above are everyday occurrences and nothing out of the ordinary.
If he didn't use the rifle as he said he did what possible advantage was there in saying it? For those who think JB is guilty I could see an advantage if the firearms and ammo were stored securely but given they were accessible to anyone inside the property then I really struggle to see the point.
The same applies to the fact he claims he left the rifle out. It seems obvious to me NB would return it to the den/gun cupboard. If JB said he left after everyone was in bed and he left the rifle out then this potentially would be different.
I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy Bamber would have either the time or the inclination to want to bother with a couple of bunnies after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time. His sister and her twin sons were there, was he not in the least interested in them?
He planned these murders to the last detail and has spent the last 31 years behind bars regretting it and making excuses.
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42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
The 2002 COA judgement said they were burn marks.
IMO the whole case from investigation to its present status has been very poorly managed. No proper oversight, appaling communication and many simply grossly incompetent.
The fact the 2002 judgement refers to the marks as burns doesn't fill me with confidence. It is a doc I tend to quote from as you like to think its accurate but Scipio has highlighted a number of inaccuracies.
For example lets take the above where it refers to NB sustaining black eyes, is this due to bruising from his GSW's or the perp punching him with a fist or some instrument? When dealing with technical matters experts need to make themselves clear.
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I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy Bamber would have either the time or the inclination to want to bother with a couple of bunnies after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time. His sister and her twin sons were there, was he not in the least interested in them?
He planned these murders to the last detail and has spent the last 31 years behind bars regretting it and making excuses.
He didn't have the time or inclination to deal with a couple of bunnies "after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time" and yet stayed up all night, made a round trip from GH to WHF by bike and murdered 5 members of his family?
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He didn't have the time or inclination to deal with a couple of bunnies "after an exhausting day on the farm at harvest time" and yet stayed up all night, made a round trip from GH to WHF by bike and murdered 5 members of his family?
There was greater benefit in the latter Holly.
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Yea... the most he would have got was a boiled bunny, whereas he ended up being shopped by a bunny boiler.
Likes gratefully accepted. 8((()*/
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It is surprising he went for supper. He had already seen Sheila and the twins. The twins would be in bed at that time anyway. He would have seen Neville on the farm. Maybe he went to see June, who he hated. Although he did recently claim he was a 'mummies boy'.
Being tired, not living at WHF, already assisting his parents for several hours that day on the farm, not liking his parents, it being dark or getting dark will have all contributed to Bamber not going out to shoot rabbits. Besides which he was hungry and had gone to WHF 'for supper'.
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Some people say Bamber should not have rang the police. However he would be first on the farm in the morning for work. Just as importantly he was the last person to leave WHF after his 'supper'.
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There was greater benefit in the latter Holly.
Yes I often find I can overcome tiredness if the incentives are right 8(0(*
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It is surprising he went for supper. He had already seen Sheila and the twins. The twins would be in bed at that time anyway. He would have seen Neville on the farm. Maybe he went to see June, who he hated. Although he did recently claim he was a 'mummies boy'.
Being tired, not living at WHF, already assisting his parents for several hours that day on the farm, not liking his parents, it being dark or getting dark will have all contributed to Bamber not going out to shoot rabbits. Besides which he was hungry and had gone to WHF 'for supper'.
I'm surprised after supper at WHF he went home and had a sandwich and a coke! A coke contains caffeine and is a stimulant!
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There's a reason we have wooden spoons for stirring when cooking and it isn't just so we don't scratch the inside of the pan with a metal spoon. A metal spoon will heat up very quickly and transfer heat to the hand. If someone attempted to heat the rifle in or on the Aga would the wooden stock prevent the heat travelling to the persons hand?
I just can't see JB or SC heating the rifle to then apply to NB to check for life.
Heating the nozzle of the rifle on an Aga plate, I very much doubt the heat will transfer several feet to Bamber's hands. If he wasn't wearing gloves he could always use a tea towel.
Neville putting up a tremendous fight for life after being shot four times would have flustered Bamber. He was not expecting this.
Neville was negated in the kitchen fight but Bamber wanted him dead. So a combination of extra shots and tests for life took place. In what order, no one knows.
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I'm surprised after supper at WHF he went home and had a sandwich and a coke! A coke contains caffeine and is a stimulant!
Did he do this ? I thought he had just had supper.
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Just going back to the burns were they definitely burns as opposed to scorch marks?
Myster, re the OP case and the images you brought up can you remind me please what was being suggested?
- hot casings?
- scorch marks from the skin being caught by force?
I remember as a child swinging from things and getting marks on my hands which were referred to as burns but these were obviously not from a direct heat source.
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Did he do this ? I thought he had just had supper.
Yes he states in his WS and in the Daily Mirror audio clip he made a sandwich and had a coke but young men do tend to have quite an appetite especially if their work is physical.
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Heating the nozzle of the rifle on an Aga plate, I very much doubt the heat will transfer several feet to Bamber's hands. If he wasn't wearing gloves he could always use a tea towel.
Neville putting up a tremendous fight for life after being shot four times would have flustered Bamber. He was not expecting this.
Neville was negated in the kitchen fight but Bamber wanted him dead. So a combination of extra shots and tests for life took place. In what order, no one knows.
But if the perp went to these lengths to ensure NB was dead why not do the same with the other victims? What made the perp need to single out NB?
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Yea... the most he would have got was a boiled bunny, whereas he ended up being shopped by a bunny boiler.
Likes gratefully accepted. 8((()*/
You've now got twice as many likes as me 8)><(
As of yesterday Mercury had the most likes. He has reached triple numbers.
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Just going back to the burns were they definitely burns as opposed to scorch marks?
Myster, re the OP case and the images you brought up can you remind me please what was being suggested?
- hot casings?
- scorch marks from the skin being caught by force?
I remember as a child swinging from things and getting marks on my hands which were referred to as burns but these were obviously not from a direct heat source.
It has just come to me...I was thinking of friction burns. Could the burn marks be from friction as opposed to heat?
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It has just come to me...I was thinking of friction burns. Could the burn marks be from friction as opposed to heat?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_burn
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Just going back to the burns were they definitely burns as opposed to scorch marks?
Myster, re the OP case and the images you brought up can you remind me please what was being suggested?
- hot casings?
- scorch marks from the skin being caught by force?
I remember as a child swinging from things and getting marks on my hands which were referred to as burns but these were obviously not from a direct heat source.
The prosecution thought they were burn marks caused by a hot bullet which missed, but then bounced off the tiled wall behind Reeva as she was facing the toilet door and landed somewhere on her back.
The defence said they were bruises caused when she fell back onto a wooden magazine rack which Pistorius stored in the toilet.
Two amateur sleuths recently decided they were bruises inflicted by the end of a cricket back before she was intentionally shot.
Regarding Nevill's back, I had the idea they might be burns from a single red-hot casing which ricocheted off the wall where the AGA was, or off the mantleshelf, got trapped underneath his pyjama top for a second or two to create the largest burn, then skipped down a bit further to make the smaller ones. The problem is... the size of the largest circle-shaped burn at around 10mm+ dia, whereas the flange end of the casing is only 7mm dia, although a burn might spread out depending on how long it's in contact with the skin.
Or they might have been done during the day, say if they were burning rubbish outside and a stray spark flew out and landed on his nape. The farm near to where I live are always having wood fires in fine weather, the last one only a couple of days ago.
I don't think they're friction burns in that unusual position.
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You've now got twice as many likes as me 8)><(
As of yesterday Mercury had the most likes. He has reached triple numbers.
He's a she, formerly known as something similar to your avatar pic.
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It is surprising he went for supper. He had already seen Sheila and the twins. The twins would be in bed at that time anyway. He would have seen Neville on the farm. Maybe he went to see June, who he hated. Although he did recently claim he was a 'mummies boy'.
Being tired, not living at WHF, already assisting his parents for several hours that day on the farm, not liking his parents, it being dark or getting dark will have all contributed to Bamber not going out to shoot rabbits. Besides which he was hungry and had gone to WHF 'for supper'.
Maybe he took the chance to drop a couple of sleeping pills into the children's cocoa?
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If you speak with farmers I think you will find that most of the above are everyday occurrences and nothing out of the ordinary.
If he didn't use the rifle as he said he did what possible advantage was there in saying it? For those who think JB is guilty I could see an advantage if the firearms and ammo were stored securely but given they were accessible to anyone inside the property then I really struggle to see the point.
The same applies to the fact he claims he left the rifle out. It seems obvious to me NB would return it to the den/gun cupboard. If JB said he left after everyone was in bed and he left the rifle out then this potentially would be different.
Another thing worth considering is whether Jeremy would really shoot bunnies with the children being around? I can't see Nevill allowing it.
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The evidence shows the shooter was at the foot of the bed firing at June's right side and Nevill's left. Nevill suffered 4 shots to his left and June 6 to her right. The ten casings associated with these shots were in the bedroom where they would be expected to be based on a shooter being in such position shooting at them.
The 2 parents were the greatest threat hence why they were to be killed first.
His plan of killing them easily didn't work out. Both got up out of bed and after the weapon was empty either either went to try to disarm him with him running away to try to reload or somehow managed to fight past him to get out of the room. Nevill didn't bleed on the phone so he never got to the phone nor did he manage to get to a shotgun. Either Jeremy was in close pursuit and caught him in the kitchen or Nevill was in close pursuit and caught Jeremy in the kitchen. Nevill was bashed unconscious so Jeremy could reload safely then he shot Nevill 4 times more. Then he reloaded the magazine fully and went upstairs and fired 8 shots into the boys, 2 into sheila and June in unknown order.
While it has been documented that even after 4 plus shots drawback can still remain in a weapon it is rather unlikely that there would still be the amount of blood near the opening that was present had a sizable number of shots been fired after sheila was killed. Thus in all likelihood sheila was shot last. If it could be determined Sheila died before the boys this could ruin him getting the full inheritance and even worse could ruin his efforts to pretend Sheila was the killer. In addition to such considerations it makes more sense to kill the boys and then deal with sheila so they don't have a chance to wake up and escape if she screams. Whether he shot June between the eyes before or after the boys there is simply no way to know. It is just as logical that such was done after killing the boys as before and the physical evidence shed's no light either.
Jeremy goes upstairs, checks to make sure June is dead and fires one between her eyes to make sure then goes to kill the boys and then goes to get sheila..
Jeremy goes upstairs and kills the boys then thinks June is still breathing so fires a shot between her eyes then goes to get sheila.
The only part of that I cannot sympathise with is the four shots in the kitchen claim. It cannot be established beyond doubt that all four shots occurred in the kitchen since one empty casing associated with those shots was found at the foot of the stairs. That would suggest several possible scenarios.
1. Nevill was shot four times in the kitchen but one casing got carried in someone's boot to the stairs.
2. Nevill was shot by someone higher up the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
3. Nevill was shot by someone standing near the bottom of the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
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But if the perp went to these lengths to ensure NB was dead why not do the same with the other victims? What made the perp need to single out NB?
I suggest it could have been a crazed form of control over his victim. One thing about the Aga though, it was coal fired and even if lit would have been turned right down overnight. There would be little heat generated in that state imo. Did the forensics expert per chance note any discoloration of the rifle barrel which would indicate heat had been applied to it externally?
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I'd still go with your no.1, whichever way the 4th casing found its way upstairs, since this is what Vanezis observed about the close proximity of wounds 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 being within half an inch of each other. The first bullet would no doubt have disrupted his brain so much that he would be incapable of any movement, let alone making his own way downstairs.
What is unusual and puzzling is the size of the entry wounds of each group, a difference of five-sixteenths of an inch or 8mm. Could this be caused by varying distances between the end of the rifle and the head?
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I suggest it could have been a crazed form of control over his victim. One thing about the Aga though, it was coal fired and even if lit would have been turned right down overnight. There would be little heat generated in that state imo. Did the forensics expert per chance note any discoloration of the rifle barrel which would indicate heat had been applied to it externally?
Whether it was the rifle or some other AGA implement hanging up to the right, this might have been inserted through the filler hole in the left-hand hotplate and into the hot coals of the combustion chamber, rather than leaving it on a hotplate or in one of the ovens. Aren't AGA's usually banked up at bedtime to ensure they're still alight by morning? A good point though about any loss of bluing/discolouration to the rifle's end which should still be visible, shouldn't it?
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But if the perp went to these lengths to ensure NB was dead why not do the same with the other victims? What made the perp need to single out NB?
I think this was because JB hated Neville most, he'd stated this so often. Recent argument's with Neville at Osea Road. JB was against everything proposed to him by NB.
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Talking of the burns to NB's neck/back. Could these possibly have happened before the murders took place? I was wondering if they could have happened on the farm recently before the 7th August. Not necessarily by JB....although NB did say to his brother... I must not turn my back on JB. NB also spoke to BW about getting things in order, saying....we all have to go at some point in time. Something had happened to make NB concerned about the future when he was in good health! Did Jb know NB was putting things in order?
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I'd still go with your no.1, whichever way the 4th casing found its way upstairs, since this is what Vanezis observed about the close proximity of wounds 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 being within half an inch of each other. The first bullet would no doubt have disrupted his brain so much that he would be incapable of any movement, let alone making his own way downstairs.
What is unusual and puzzling is the size of the entry wounds of each group, a difference of five-sixteenths of an inch or 8mm. Could this be caused by varying distances between the end of the rifle and the head?
Bullets enter at different angles. That alone helps result in different sized entry wounds though distance can as well. Some breaks will be larger because of gas effects among other things relative to the exact nature of that part of the body.
There were entrance wounds of 4 different sizes:
3/16"
1/4"
5/16"
1/2"
22 fell into the first 3 so the variation among these was extremely small- only 1/16" or 2/16".
1 shot to June and 2 to Nevill were 1/2. The angle at which the bullets hit in these shots resulted in more of the side hitting while the others featured mainly the nose hitting. These 3 were all angled shots to the side of the head (side of the chest for June).
The killer definitely fired the shots into Nevill's hea din pairs. The killer double-tapped the weapon when firing into the top of his skull and also did so when shooting the right side of his head. After all that happened he wanted to make damn sure Nevill was dead to fired 2 shots then decide he better fire 2 more to make sure. Whether he shot the top of the head first for second is anyone's guess.
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But if the perp went to these lengths to ensure NB was dead why not do the same with the other victims? What made the perp need to single out NB?
well the most obvious reason would be because Nevill put up a big fight and he didn't want Nevill waking up and fighting him again or waking up and grabbing a shotgun and appearing with a shotgun as he was taking care of the other victims.
But he made sure June was dead by firing a shot between her eyes. He fired 2 extra shots into Nevill's head to make sure he was dead and fired one between June's eyes to make sure. He fired multiple rounds into the heads of each boy to make sure they were dead.
Vanezis wasn't positive the injuries to his back were burns or that they definitely were from the night of the murders. It has been shown that injuries from being struck by objects or a body hitting into objects have been mistaken as burns. The only way to ensure something is a burn if to test the flash for sure signs of being burned. No one records Vanezis doing such.
Thus we don't even know they are burns. What if during the course of struggling Nevill hit his back into something? Jeremy could have hit or burned him with something to try to give the impression Nevill was being marched at gunpoint or forced to make the phone call to Jeremy at gunpoint. Someone here- perhaps you- posted about burns that can be caused by bullets that land on flesh. I looked more into that and it does occasionally happen, for all we know the bullet that grazed him ended up inside his gown bouncing around hit back. There is not enough information for us to figure out whether the marks were incidental or done on purpose for some staging purposes. Vanezis not really caring much about them and thus not doing anything to truly document their exact nature means we have no hope of even knowing whether the skin was actually burned let alone to figure out what precisely caused them.
You talk of friction burns, stabbing the rifle really hard into a back could perhaps cause such abrasions. Post mortem it is very easy to damage skin and it will look worse than would be the case if the person were still alive. There are ways to assess whether injuries were pre or post mortem but it requires great skill and care. Clearly Vanezis either lacked the skill to attempt to assess such or had no desire to bother.
Only if someone gets Jeremy to talk will we ever know what caused the wounds and why they came about.
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The only part of that I cannot sympathise with is the four shots in the kitchen claim. It cannot be established beyond doubt that all four shots occurred in the kitchen since one empty casing associated with those shots was found at the foot of the stairs. That would suggest several possible scenarios.
1. Nevill was shot four times in the kitchen but one casing got carried in someone's boot to the stairs.
2. Nevill was shot by someone higher up the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
3. Nevill was shot by someone standing near the bottom of the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
All 4 had to be fired in the same room where his body were found. Any one of these wounds would bring him down. He would not have made it to the kitchen if shot in the head prior.
Furthermore the 4 shots were fired pairs of 2. Each pair was closely grouped with the shooter firing from the same exact location as the first shot was fired from and Nevill being in the same exact location as the prior shot. They were fired in pairs so shooting him on the stairs would require a pair being shot there. That is where his body would have been found he would not have made it to the kitchen.
The trajectory/location of the wounds precludes someone shooting Nevill in the head from the bottom of the stairs. Shooting him as he goes down the stairs in the head would result in the casing going to the right down toward the bottom not the left towards the landing. But again any hit to the head on the upstairs would have brought him down there and they were fired in pairs anyway.
There is no question the 4 shots to the head were all fired in the kitchen after he was beaten unconscious and that 1 of the casings was accidentally transferred somewhere else by a cop or the killer.
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But if the perp went to these lengths to ensure NB was dead why not do the same with the other victims? What made the perp need to single out NB?
There is already a thread on this. I will post it.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7642.0.html
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I think this was because JB hated Neville most, he'd stated this so often. Recent argument's with Neville at Osea Road. JB was against everything proposed to him by NB.
There is a slim chance this was one of the reasons. He resented Sheila and the twins rather than hated them. June he didn't like but she had nothing to do with the farm or caravan park. Neville he perhaps had the biggest gripe with.
With Neville immobilised and perhaps dead, Bamber simply burned his back out practical neccessity, to check for signs of life. He had more important things to do in a strict time scale than start torturing an uncousious and/or dead man.
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Bullets enter at different angles. That alone helps result in different sized entry wounds though distance can as well. Some breaks will be larger because of gas effects among other things relative to the exact nature of that part of the body.
There were entrance wounds of 4 different sizes:
3/16"
1/4"
5/16"
1/2"
22 fell into the first 3 so the variation among these was extremely small- only 1/16" or 2/16".
1 shot to June and 2 to Nevill were 1/2. The angle at which the bullets hit in these shots resulted in more of the side hitting while the others featured mainly the nose hitting. These 3 were all angled shots to the side of the head (side of the chest for June).
The killer definitely fired the shots into Nevill's hea din pairs. The killer double-tapped the weapon when firing into the top of his skull and also did so when shooting the right side of his head. After all that happened he wanted to make damn sure Nevill was dead to fired 2 shots then decide he better fire 2 more to make sure. Whether he shot the top of the head first for second is anyone's guess.
Could the difference be due to the hollow point design of the bullets? Upon impact they open up but not in a uniform way?
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I think this was because JB hated Neville most, he'd stated this so often. Recent argument's with Neville at Osea Road. JB was against everything proposed to him by NB.
Reading CAL's book I was left with the impression JB had a good relationship with NB.
If the OCP argument you are referring to relates to some fencing, AE supported JB on this.
It's not unusual in family run businesses for members to disagree especially across generations.
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Reading CAL's book I was left with the impression JB had a good relationship with NB.
If the OCP argument you are referring to relates to some fencing, AE supported JB on this.
It's not unusual in family run businesses for members to disagree especially across generations.
Greed is a powerful emotion and if you add the element of hate you have the perfect storm. The thought of bringing Sheila and her spawn back into his domain must have been the last straw.
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There is a slim chance this was one of the reasons. He resented Sheila and the twins rather than hated them. June he didn't like but she had nothing to do with the farm or caravan park. Neville he perhaps had the biggest gripe with.
With Neville immobilised and perhaps dead, Bamber simply burned his back out practical neccessity, to check for signs of life. He had more important things to do in a strict time scale than start torturing an uncousious and/or dead man.
Is there any firm evidence JB resented SC and the twins? Did SC discuss with Dr Ferguson any relationship difficulties with JB? No. SC's relationship difficulties were centred around June and the twins.
June had a lot to do with OCP. She was a majority shareholder along with PB. AE and JB were minority shareholders. AE and JB wanted to install fruit machines June was against.
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Greed is a powerful emotion and if you add the element of hate you have the perfect storm. The thought of bringing Sheila and her spawn back into his domain must have been the last straw.
I don't think SC would ever have agreed to move back to Essex. If she did JB might have welcomed it. He may have said let's swap with SC having his cottage in Goldhanger and JB having SC's flat in London. JB could have worked on the farm during the week sleeping at WHF Mon - Thu eve and then spent his w.e's and holidays in London.
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The only part of that I cannot sympathise with is the four shots in the kitchen claim. It cannot be established beyond doubt that all four shots occurred in the kitchen since one empty casing associated with those shots was found at the foot of the stairs. That would suggest several possible scenarios.
1. Nevill was shot four times in the kitchen but one casing got carried in someone's boot to the stairs.
2. Nevill was shot by someone higher up the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
3. Nevill was shot by someone standing near the bottom of the stairs as he made his way downstairs.
I'm confused about a casing found at the foot of the stairs? I thought it was found on the landing upstairs preceding the two stairs which lead directly into the main bedroom?
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I don't think SC would ever have agreed to move back to Essex. If she did JB might have welcomed it. He may have said let's swap with SC having his cottage in Goldhanger and JB having SC's flat in London. JB could have worked on the farm during the week sleeping at WHF Mon - Thu eve and then spent his w.e's and holidays in London.
If he pulled during the week he could use one of the caravans at OCP. June had her own caravan there. Then impressed at the w.e with his London pad.
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I don't think SC would ever have agreed to move back to Essex. If she did JB might have welcomed it. He may have said let's swap with SC having his cottage in Goldhanger and JB having SC's flat in London. JB could have worked on the farm during the week sleeping at WHF Mon - Thu eve and then spent his w.e's and holidays in London.
Sheila doesn't have much say. It's Neville's and June's money.
If Bamber was right and Sheila and the twins were moving into his cottage, that would infuriate Bamber. He had spent hours and thousands refurbishing it.
Surely Bamber wasn't going to move back into WHF. If not Neville would be giving him somewhere smaller to live in. Anywhere bigger available would have been given to Sheila out of neccessity.
Another option would be for Neville to increase Bamber's wages and tell him to find his own property. Which would upset him as it if he couldn't afford to buy or rent somewhere decent, he would have to live in a bedsit or shared house. Either which way, it was not benefitting Bamber.
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Sheila doesn't have much say. It's Neville's and June's money.
If Bamber was right and Sheila and the twins were moving into his cottage, that would infuriate Bamber. He had spent hours and thousands refurbishing it.
Surely Bamber wasn't going to move back into WHF. If not Neville would be giving him somewhere smaller to live in. Anywhere bigger available would have been given to Sheila out of neccessity.
Another option would be for Neville to increase Bamber's wages and tell him to find his own property. Which would upset him as it if he couldn't afford to buy or rent somewhere decent, he would have to live in a bedsit or shared house. Either which way, it was not benefitting Bamber.
CAL's book mentions another property that had been earmarked for JB in Essex. I'll look it up later.
The Bambers were not short of a bob or two. They were financially generous to SC and JB and there's no evidence they favoured one over the other either emotionally or financially.
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It would be interesting to know what other property Neville and June had earmarked for Bamber. And where CAL got this information from. If Bamber told CAL, I would be suspicious. He would have to give the impression everything was fine with him, pre massacre.
Thought an option would be for Sheila to move into WHF. There was enough room.
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CAL's book mentions another property that had been earmarked for JB in Essex. I'll look it up later.
The Bambers were not short of a bob or two. They were financially generous to SC and JB and there's no evidence they favoured one over the other either emotionally or financially.
A house on Gardener's Farm, not far off Osea Caravan Park..."once we owned it and did it up"... or so he says.
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I'm confused about a casing found at the foot of the stairs? I thought it was found on the landing upstairs preceding the two stairs which lead directly into the main bedroom?
Approx. position of DRH14. Another couple of steps to the top landing are omitted from the drawing...
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I'm confused about a casing found at the foot of the stairs? I thought it was found on the landing upstairs preceding the two stairs which lead directly into the main bedroom?
DRH/13 was found on the landing just by the master bedroom door. DRH/14 is clearly down several steps described as being "bottom of first landing" as seen on the official sketch below. The forensics guy suggested that bullet was trod on and moved to the stairs but noted below is suggestion that both bullets refer to June (second episode) which is also possible. If this is correct then Neville was shot 6 times in the bedroom and not 5. That in itself would fit with the two remaining shots (total 8) being made to the top of his head as he lay slumped after being beaten with the rifle stock.
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I think that sketch is a bit askew Angelo. Take note of the position of bullets DRH/13 and DRH/14 in the one below. The latter being down two steps from the top landing. This bullet could have been transferred from the kitchen but it is doubtful, most likely was associated with the second episode shooting of June Bamber.
Three empty casings were found in the kitchen, all associated with the second episode shooting of Nevill.
To sum up...
Nevill was shot 8 times (5 times as he stood in the master bedroom and 3 times in the kitchen).
June was shot 7 times in the master bedroom over two episodes.
Sheila shot twice in the master bedroom.
Daniel shot 5 times in children's bedroom.
Nicholas shot 3 times in children's bedroom.
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I think that sketch is a bit askew Angelo. Take note of the position of bullets DRH/13 and DRH/14 in the one below. The latter being down two steps from the top landing. This bullet could have been transferred from the kitchen but it is doubtful, most likely was associated with the second episode shooting of June Bamber.
And there are far too many steps between upper and lower landing in the earlier one.
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I think that sketch is a bit askew Angelo. Take note of the position of bullets DRH/13 and DRH/14 in the one below. The latter being down two steps from the top landing. This bullet could have been transferred from the kitchen but it is doubtful, most likely was associated with the second episode shooting of June Bamber.
Three empty casings were found in the kitchen, all associated with the second episode shooting of Nevill.
To sum up...
Nevill was shot 8 times (5 times as he stood in the master bedroom and 3 times in the kitchen).
June was shot 7 times in the master bedroom over two episodes.
Sheila shot twice in the master bedroom.
Daniel shot 5 times in children's bedroom.
Nicholas shot 3 times in children's bedroom.
But John, Nevill couldn't have received any of the shots to the top of his head in the bedroom AND then made his way downstairs (unless he was carried!) I think Vanezis was correct when he said the 4 head shots were received in the kitchen after Nevill had ceased to struggle and his head was below the killer. The two wounds in each group were very close together indicating that the bullets were fired immediately after each other.
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Reading CAL's book I was left with the impression JB had a good relationship with NB.
If the OCP argument you are referring to relates to some fencing, AE supported JB on this.
It's not unusual in family run businesses for members to disagree especially across generations.
It was in CAL's book (p.137) Holly, but not the time you mention above. This time was on 18th July 1985. Jeremy had a blazing row with Neville at a Director's Meeting...not the AGM. Ann Eaton couldn't remember what this was about, her parents were also present. 18th July also being SC's birthday! Friends of JB have spoken about him saying how much he hated his family. It was after this back at WHF with RB and PB that NB said to RB...on seeing and removing a rifle and ammo on the settle in back hall words to the effect...."don't want to make it easy for the next gun to jump into my shoes".
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A house on Gardener's Farm, not far off Osea Caravan Park..."once we owned it and did it up"... or so he says.
Are there any properties on 'Gardener's Farm'? It seems it's a farm shop?
In Nov 1984 NB bought JB some land at Little Renters Farm and this contains several cottages. Ironically it seems the day after the tragedy they became listed. How bizarre is that?!
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-119004-renters-cottage-little-totham-essex/bingmap#.VzdN6OSu_IU
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It was in CAL's book (p.137) Holly, but not the time you mention above. This time was on 18th July 1985. Jeremy had a blazing row with Neville at a Director's Meeting...not the AGM. Ann Eaton couldn't remember what this was about, her parents were also present. 18th July also being SC's birthday! Friends of JB have spoken about him saying how much he hated his family.
Thanks. Can any of us say we haven't at some time had a "blazing row" with a member of our family? If the "blazing row" was that memorable I'm surprised AE was unable to elaborate. Didn't AE go home and tear down some wallpaper in her bathroom because JB angered her?
The "friends" that spoke of JB hating his family tended to be connected to the family or JM in some way. The likes of Brett Collins, Suzette Ford, June's long serving housekeeper, Jean Boutell, and many others never heard him say anything derogatory about his family.
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Are there any properties on 'Gardener's Farm'? It seems it's a farm shop?
In Nov 1984 NB bought JB some land at Little Renters Farm and this contains several cottages. Ironically it seems the day after the tragedy they became listed. How bizarre is that?!
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-119004-renters-cottage-little-totham-essex/bingmap#.VzdN6OSu_IU (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-119004-renters-cottage-little-totham-essex/bingmap#.VzdN6OSu_IU)
Several in 2016, maybe the odd one in 1985...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It would be interesting to know what other property Neville and June had earmarked for Bamber. And where CAL got this information from. If Bamber told CAL, I would be suspicious. He would have to give the impression everything was fine with him, pre massacre.
Thought an option would be for Sheila to move into WHF. There was enough room.
Yes JB did tell CAL:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7216.msg331444#msg331444
I don't believe SC would ever have agreed to move to Essex. Even if she did CC would never have agreed to the twins being brought up in Essex by SC/June.
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DRH/13 was found on the landing just by the master bedroom door. DRH/14 is clearly down several steps described as being "bottom of first landing" as seen on the official sketch below. The forensics guy suggested that bullet was trod on and moved to the stairs but noted below is suggestion that both bullets refer to June (second episode) which is also possible. If this is correct then Neville was shot 6 times in the bedroom and not 5. That in itself would fit with the two remaining shots (total 8) being made to the top of his head as he lay slumped after being beaten with the rifle stock.
I don't know how "official" the sketch is. I've never been able to find out who drew it up and when.
Did the forensics guy make the suggestion or did it come from EP?
Although Dr Vanezis visited WHF on 8th Aug he was not aware of the location of the casings and admits he had no idea of the sequence of injuries:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
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I just clicked on that link. It just takes me to this thread.
Sheila would do as Neville and June wanted. It was their money.
The easiest and cheapest thing would be for Sheila to move back into WHF. It was big enough for her. The twins were looked after by CC, I'm sure WHF could accommodate them when they visited, just as they were doing on the massacre night.
So it is surprising Bamber said in his WS that there were discussions about Sheila moving into his cottage. At the time it may have been put into his WS to show the jury how considerate and helpful he was towards his sister and family. However now it is just another reason why he would feel aggrieved.
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I just clicked on that link. It just takes me to this thread.
Sheila would do as Neville and June wanted. It was their money.
The easiest and cheapest thing would be for Sheila to move back into WHF. It was big enough for her. The twins were looked after by CC, I'm sure WHF could accommodate them when they visited, just as they were doing on the massacre night.
So it is surprising Bamber said in his WS that there were discussions about Sheila moving into his cottage. At the time it may have been put his WS to show the jury how considerate and helpful he was towards his sister and family. However now it is just another reason why he would feel aggrieved.
Sorry Adam I meant to link you to my post #147.
Yes SC was financially dependent on June and NB but I doubt they would force her to do something against her will eg move back to Essex with or without the twins if she didn't want to. How would this improve her mental state?
Are you suggesting SC would move back to Essex and CC remain in London with the twins?
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I don't know how "official" the sketch is. I've never been able to find out who drew it up and when.
Did the forensics guy make the suggestion or did it come from EP?
Although Dr Vanezis visited WHF on 8th Aug he was not aware of the location of the casings and admits he had no idea of the sequence of injuries:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
I've always believed the 14th bullet casing was found at the bottom of the long flight of stairs up from the kitchen. Three bullet casings found in Kitchen, with the 4th being found at bottom of flight of stairs.....carried here perhaps by police shoes. Now I'm really confused! ( four shots fired one after the other in Kitchen)
Could someone tell me where officially NB's blood was found upstairs....apart from smears on the hall wallpaper?
&%+((£
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Sorry Adam I meant to link you to my post #147.
Yes SC was financially dependent on June and NB but I doubt they would force her to do something against her will eg move back to Essex with or without the twins if she didn't want to. How would this improve her mental state?
Are you suggesting SC would move back to Essex and CC remain in London with the twins?
Well they got Bamber to work 14 hour days. Sheila couldn't start negotiating. She had nothing to negotiate with. If she was in a mental state, living away from her parents wouldn't help. Neville couldn't keep driving over.
If CC had legal custody of the twins, he could live with them where he wanted. Providing he gave Sheila access when he was supposed to.
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I've always believed the 14th bullet casing was found at the bottom of the long flight of stairs up from the kitchen. Three bullet casings found in Kitchen, with the 4th being found at bottom of flight of stairs.....carried here perhaps by police shoes. Now I'm really confused! ( four shots fired one after the other in Kitchen)
Could someone tell me where officially NB's blood was found upstairs....apart from smears on the hall wallpaper?
&%+((£
What made you believe that Opal?
I think you will find most will agree the casing we're discussing was found just outside the main bedroom door. Probably under the picture in the following photo:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
None of NB's blood was officially found upstairs.
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Well they got Bamber to work 14 hour days. Sheila couldn't start negotiating. She had nothing to negotiate with. If she was in a mental state, living away from her parents wouldn't help. Neville couldn't keep driving over.
If CC had legal custody of the twins, he could live with them where he wanted. Providing he gave Sheila access when he was supposed to.
14 hours a day! JM said when she first met JB he was working at Sloppy Joes in the evening and on the farm. The Sun Journo in 'Killing Mum and Dad' said JB was rampant on the Essex night scene pulling birds when JM was in London. Where did he find the time and energy? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!
CC didn't have legal custody of the twins. There was no court order in place just informal arrangements.
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14 hours a day! JM said when she first met JB he was working at Sloppy Joes in the evening and on the farm. The Sun Journo in 'Killing Mum and Dad' said JB was rampant on the Essex night scene pulling birds when JM was in London. Where did he find the time and energy? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!
CC didn't have legal custody of the twins. There was no court order in place just informal arrangements.
Sloppy Joes is nothing to do with Bambers last 18 months working on WHF.
Custody or informal arrangement, CC could live where he wanted. London was not far from Essex.
What were the alleged fostering conversations about, if CC believed Sheila was well enough to have an informal arrangement with him over the twins ?
Do you believe Bamber was telling the truth in his WS when he said there were discussions about Sheila moving into the cottage ?
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Amazing how differential focusing improves a photo, Holls... makes the flowers really stand out.
All you've got to watch out for now is Pistol Packin' Pete reading the legend. 8()-000(
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Well they got Bamber to work 14 hour days. Sheila couldn't start negotiating. She had nothing to negotiate with. If she was in a mental state, living away from her parents wouldn't help. Neville couldn't keep driving over.
If CC had legal custody of the twins, he could live with them where he wanted. Providing he gave Sheila access when he was supposed to.
Adam, you keep flogging this "14 hour day" thing. It's highly likely that it was such during harvest time but as a general rule, NO farmer of my knowledge, works those hours routinely.
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Sloppy Joes is nothing to do with Bambers last 18 months working on WHF.
Custody or informal arrangement, CC could live where he wanted. London was not far from Essex.
What were the alleged fostering conversations about, if CC believed Sheila was well enough to have an informal arrangement with him over the twins ?
Do you believe Bamber was telling the truth in his WS when he said there were duscussions about Sheila moving into the cottage ?
Yes CC could live where he wanted but he obviously wanted to live with or close to the twins. If you read his WS he states when he separated from SC he went to live with his father (in London). After 3 months he found somewhere to live in Hampstead so he could be closer to the twins.
Hampstead/North West London is about 1.5 hours drive to WHF.
The informal arrangement was made when CC and SC first separated and before SC's mental illness set in.
If you read JB's WS he said various things were under discussion which in the eyes of his parents would help SC. Key words 'in the eyes of his parents'. NB and June were doing what they thought was best for SC and the twins ie relocating them to Essex where they could support SC and the twins and provide SC with some paid work which she did want. But it would never have happened. SC would not have wanted to move back to Essex even with the twins. CC would never have allowed SC and June to bring up the twins and imo he had good reasons for feeling this way.
What caring parent in his/her right mind would allow SC and June to bring up children? Could anyone read CC's letter and not feel very afraid for the twins?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330196#msg330196
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Yes CC could live where he wanted but he obviously wanted to live with or close to the twins. If you read his WS he states when he separated from SC he went to live with his father (in London). After 3 months he found somewhere to live in Hampstead so he could be closer to the twins.
Hampstead/North West London is about 1.5 hours drive to WHF.
The informal arrangement was made when CC and SC first separated and before SC's mental illness set in.
If you read JB's WS he said various things were under discussion which in the eyes of his parents would help SC. Key words 'in the eyes of his parents'. NB and June were doing what they thought was best for SC and the twins ie relocating them to Essex where they could support SC and the twins and provide SC with some paid work which she did want. But it would never have happened. SC would not have wanted to move back to Essex even with the twins. CC would never have allowed SC and June to bring up the twins and imo he had good reasons for feeling this way.
What caring parent in his/her right mind would allow SC and June to bring up children? Could anyone read CC's letter and not feel very afraid for the twins?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7211.msg330196#msg330196
'Before Sheila's mental illness'. Does that mean CC now had custody of the twins ?
Anyway, it seems there were discussions about Sheila moving back to be near her parents. Bamber said so in his WS and surely an innocent man would not lie. But in you're opinion , Sheila would have refused to go.
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Amazing how differential focusing improves a photo, Holls... makes the flowers really stand out.
All you've got to watch out for now is Pistol Packin' Pete reading the legend. 8()-000(
Yes, thank you it's quite beautiful and I will treasure if forever x
PPP did post on here for a while but I don't think it's really his thing.
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'Before Sheila's mental illness'. Does that mean CC now had custody of the twins ?
Anyway, it seems there were discussions about Sheila moving back to be near her parents. Bamber said so in his WS and surely an innocent man would not lie. But in you're opinion , Sheila would have refused to go.
No, CC did not have legal custody of the twins. Up until the tragedy he was full-time parent to the twins by mutual agreement with SC.
Why would SC want to live at or around WHF?
- She hadn't lived permanently in Essex since around the age of 10
- She didn't drive so would be reliant on others and/or public transport. A nightmare in rural locations.
- She had no known interests in country life
- She had little or nothing in common with June
- She had none of her own friends in Essex
- She seemed to prefer the company of more cosmopolitan types such as actor Don Hawkins and Iranian Freddie Emami as opposed to what some might regard as small minded townies!
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No, CC did not have legal custody of the twins. Up until the tragedy he was full-time parent to the twins by mutual agreement with SC.
Why would SC want to live at or around WHF?
- She hadn't lived permanently in Essex since around the age of 10
- She didn't drive so would be reliant on others and/or public transport. A nightmare in rural locations.
- She had no known interests in country life
- She had little or nothing in common with June
- She had none of her own friends in Essex
- She seemed to prefer the company of more cosmopolitan types such as actor Don Hawkins and Iranian Freddie Emami as opposed to what some might regard as small minded townies!
So that's settled regarding CC and Sheila.
Whether Sheila wanted to go back to Essex or not, she was in no position to make demands. Neville and June held all the cards and would do what they believed was in her best interests.
If CC was the full time parent of the twins, why were there fostering conversations with Sheila ?
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So that's settled regarding CC and Sheila.
Whether Sheila wanted to go back to Essex or not, she was in no position to make demands. Neville and June held all the cards and would do what they believed was in her best interests.
If CC was the full time parent of the twins, why were there fostering conversations with Sheila ?
NB and June most certainly didn't hold all the cards with regards to the twins. If push came to shove then there's no doubt CC would seek legal custody of the twins through the courts and the court would decide.
It seems to me the Bambers were trying to pre-empt the above by putting up a united front with an unknowing SC: relocating to Essex, SC working at OCP, foster day care to support SC care for the twins.
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NB and June most certainly didn't hold all the cards with regards to the twins. If push came to shove then there's no doubt CC would seek legal custody of the twins through the courts and the court would decide.
It seems to me the Bambers were trying to pre-empt the above by putting up a united front with an unknowing SC: relocating to Essex, SC working at OCP, foster day care to support SC care for the twins.
Neville and June held the cards over Sheila. Unless Sheila wanted to 'go it alone' as Bamber had tried a few years earlier. The twins were not really an issue. CC had them due to a mutual agreement between him and Sheila. They could visit Sheila when agreed.
I don't know if Sheila knew anything about moving back to Essex. Bamber certainly did.
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How did manage that? O is nowhere near A on a keyboard!!!?
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What made you believe that Opal?
I think you will find most will agree the casing we're discussing was found just outside the main bedroom door. Probably under the picture in the following photo:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6697.0;attach=5920
None of NB's blood was officially found upstairs.
Looking at an earlier diagram given again today, I had put DRH 14 at the bottom of the main staircase leading from the kitchen. ( also reading one of the police statements on where the casings were found, I assumed if the casing was carried on anyone's foot that it wouldn't have stayed there all the way up the stairs to the landing, it also states in Police statement the casing was found on the stairs leading from the kitchen. Then today looking at another diagram I see it is placed on the landing between the main staircase and the couple of other steps that lead up from here. Thanks Holly, I'm glad that's sorted!
Now the question is were other casings that were found in the main bedroom also carried on someone's shoes? I can't see that 4 or more shots were fired to NB upstairs...and no blood found belonging to him upstairs?!
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Looking at an earlier diagram given again today, I had put DRH 14 at the bottom of the main staircase leading from the kitchen. ( also reading one of the police statements on where the casings were found, I assumed if the casing was carried on anyone's foot that it wouldn't have stayed there all the way up the stairs to the landing. Then today looking at another diagram I see it is placed on the landing between the main staircase and the couple of other steps that lead up from here. Thanks Holly, I'm glad that's sorted!
Now the question is were other casings that were found in the main bedroom also carried on someone's shoes? I can't see that 4 or more shots were fired to NB upstairs...and no blood found belonging to him upstairs?!
The bullet that grazed Nevill was in the bedroom. That is even stronger evidence than the casings that he was shot there. He didn't have to bleed in the room where he was shot. Blood from his jaw and lip could leak on his clothing as opposed to the floor. The wound to his shoulder and graze would wound not result in bleeding on the floor. Your premise that he would have to have bled in the bedroom is false. In any event he may very well have bled in the bedroom. The comforter appears to have blood on it in a photo of Sheila near the comforter. Some of the blood on the carpet could have been his as well. They did not test all or even most of the blood in the bedroom. They tested only 2 sections of the carpet and of these 2 sections they tested 5 drops not all the drops.
When they fail to test most of the blood it is easy not to find his blood.
The notion 4 casings were transported by police to the bedroom in addition to the one transported to the landing is not at all credible, particularly since they were behind the door in the corner where police did not walk until they went to that spot to collect the casings located there.
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The bullet that grazed Nevill was in the bedroom. That is even stronger evidence than the casings that he was shot there. He didn't have to bleed in the room where he was shot. Blood from his jaw and lip could leak on his clothing as opposed to the floor. The wound to his shoulder and graze would wound not result in bleeding on the floor. Your premise that he would have to have bled in the bedroom is false. In any event he may very well have bled in the bedroom. The comforter appears to have blood on it in a photo of Sheila near the comforter. Some of the blood on the carpet could have been his as well. They did not test all or even most of the blood in the bedroom. They tested only 2 sections of the carpet and of these 2 sections they tested 5 drops not all the drops.
When they fail to test most of the blood it is easy not to find his blood.
The notion 4 casings were transported by police to the bedroom in addition to the one transported to the landing is not at all credible, particularly since they were behind the door in the corner where police did not walk until they went to that spot to collect the casings located there.
According to Dr Peter Vanezis's report in 1986 regarding the wounds......
1,2,3,4, - In my view it is extremely unlikely that the victim could have received any of the 4 wounds upstairs and make his way down to the kitchen under his own steam.
5,6.The blood loss that would be expected from such wounds ( i.e..5 & 6) would be substantial both internally and externally and would depend on how long the victim survived. Suffice it to say that the regions injured have a rich blood supply.
Regarding wound No. 7, in my view after the infliction of this wound the victim’s ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired. This wound is likely to have happened upstairs in main bedroom or landing
Regarding wound No.8, the difficulty is finding bullet fragments could be due to the fact that some of these may have been in clothing and were seen radiologically, but not at the post mortem, secondly small fragments can be extremely difficult to detect even under ideal conditions. This wound is likely to have happened upstairs.
Regarding the carpet samples taken Dr P.Vanzis states...
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
From these statements...not mine... I can't believe that if NB was shot at least 4 times in the main bedroom that there wouldn't have been excessive blood from him found there. Twice I can agree, these being 7th and 8th wounds. The quilt cover that was found on the floor near the door and June B was opened up before police searched for casings....in photo you can still see a casing on the floor by quilt.
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According to Dr Peter Vanezis's report in 1986 regarding the wounds......
1,2,3,4, - In my view it is extremely unlikely that the victim could have received any of the 4 wounds upstairs and make his way down to the kitchen under his own steam.
5,6.The blood loss that would be expected from such wounds ( i.e..5 & 6) would be substantial both internally and externally and would depend on how long the victim survived. Suffice it to say that the regions injured have a rich blood supply.
Regarding wound No. 7, in my view after the infliction of this wound the victim’s ability to use his left arm would be totally impaired. This wound is likely to have happened upstairs in main bedroom or landing
Regarding wound No.8, the difficulty is finding bullet fragments could be due to the fact that some of these may have been in clothing and were seen radiologically, but not at the post mortem, secondly small fragments can be extremely difficult to detect even under ideal conditions. This wound is likely to have happened upstairs.
Regarding the carpet samples taken Dr P.Vanzis states...
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
From these statements...not mine... I can't believe that if NB was shot at least 4 times in the main bedroom that there wouldn't have been excessive blood from him found there. Twice I can agree, these being 7th and 8th wounds. The quilt cover that was found on the floor near the door and June B was opened up before police searched for casings....in photo you can still see a casing on the floor by quilt.
You say you are following Vanezis but Vanezis believed that the first 4 wounds Nevill suffered were wounds 5-8 and that these were delivered upstairs while wounds 1-4 were delivered in the kitchen after Nevill had already had stopped struggling.
What you just quoted failed to refute the points I made. What you just quoted makes clear Nevill was shot before he entered the kitchen because his blood was against the hall wall and it got there from him bumping into the wall before he entered the kitchen. You fail to address the bullet that grazed Nevill being in the bedroom and the location of the casings in the bedroom as well. Vanezis didn't suggest that either of these wounds would result in extensive external bleeding. Thus you fail to post any argument of any kind to justify viewing them as not having occurred in the bedroom.
You completely ignored my point that they failed to test most of the blood in the bedroom. Vanezis simply reiterated that the limited blood they did test belonged to June. By your standard Sheila can't have been killed in the bedroom because none of the blood they tested was hers. Obviously this is not a valid standard.
A majority of blood from a lip and jaw wound would actually be internal not external. That which would be external wound not need to land on the floor. The majority of blood that drips from a face lands on clothing. No where did Vanezis suggest Nevill would have to have dripped extensive amounts of blood on the floor.
Did the hall Nevill walked through while bleeding have any blood on the floor noted let alone a lot of blood? Did the kitchen have a lot of blood anywhere other than what pooled after Nevill died? No. Could Nevill have been shot on the left side after he was knocked out? No because his right side was exposed not his left.
Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom and June shot 6 and then the gun was empty. The gun being empty without Nevill being disabled is the only reason the struggle in the kitchen took place. This is the view that was advanced at trial and to this day is the only scenario that accounts for the struggle in the kitchen, location of the spent cases and bullets as well as trajectory of the wounds.
While Nevill didn't have to bleed in the bedroom he probably did. They did not test all or even most of the blood that was on the bedroom carpet. They only cut out 2 squares from the carpet and tested 5 drops in each square. They failed to seize all blood that had been on the carpet thus could not test it all.
Nevill's side of the quilt has what looks like blood on it. while some people suggest it is just the pattern of the comforter, it looks a lot more red than the background pattern and doesn't seem to match the background pattern it looks like the blood that was observed on June's side of the comforter.
This comforter was not collected as evidence by police it was left behind and when police agreed to clean the place up of anything with blood they burned it along with other blood stained items. Thus the lab was unable to test whose blood was on it:
(http://s32.postimg.org/deq68xgqd/dickinsonpara189.jpg)
(http://s32.postimg.org/m8hzss1kl/nevillquit.jpg)
(http://s32.postimg.org/pb0cd6n05/junequilt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
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"... in order to prevent further upset to Jeremy Bamber..." !!!?
Obviously a misprint... He must have been ecstatic at the thought of evidence being destroyed!
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Looking at an earlier diagram given again today, I had put DRH 14 at the bottom of the main staircase leading from the kitchen. ( also reading one of the police statements on where the casings were found, I assumed if the casing was carried on anyone's foot that it wouldn't have stayed there all the way up the stairs to the landing, it also states in Police statement the casing was found on the stairs leading from the kitchen. Then today looking at another diagram I see it is placed on the landing between the main staircase and the couple of other steps that lead up from here. Thanks Holly, I'm glad that's sorted!
Now the question is were other casings that were found in the main bedroom also carried on someone's shoes? I can't see that 4 or more shots were fired to NB upstairs...and no blood found belonging to him upstairs?!
I find many of the docs ambiguous and open to interpretation. I think it's just a case of going through them and drawing your own conclusions!
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I think the four spent bullets found in the bedroom relate to June:
- DRH/35 x 2
- DRH/9
- DRH/5
June's GSW's as follows:
1) Between eyes above bridge of nose - bullet and fragments recovered
2) Ear/head - fragments recovered
3) Neck - bullet exited
4) Forearm - bullet exited
5) Upper chest - bullet recovered
6) Lower chest - bullet recovered
7) knee - bullet exited
It seems to me June's GSW's 2) and 3) must represent the two bullets found in the pillow 2 x DRH/35. And GSW's 4) and 5) represent DRH/9 and DRH/5.
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The SoC photo of the bed in the main bedroom shows June left the bed by moving the duvet from left to right and leaving it open. NB left the bed and did not leave the duvet open. If he was escaping his bed under a hail of bullets why would he open it right to left to exit the bed but replace it?
I'm in bed at the moment on my phone whilst watching the Andrew Marr show on tv! Just call me Waynetta! Will try to find SoC photo later.
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Scipio, is the excerpt you've posted from something post trial eg COLP? It states that although the items would not have been destroyed if the murders were by an unknown person "no further evidence would have been forthcoming had they been retained".
DC Hammersley's trial testimony states he removed everything of evidential value from the bed in the main bedroom.
No officer observed any blood on the bedding NB's side.
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Trail of NB's ? blood from bedroom:
- Main bedroom - none identified
- Landing - two tiny spots - tested but inconclusive results
- Stairs - according to AE's WS EP cleaned blood from stairs but not tested
- Hall - none identified on floor but a smear on the wall matching NB's 'O' antigen
- Kitchen - a "light distribution" was identified but not tested
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There are always warped theories being suggested regarding this case. Which keeps the discussion going.
Mike has said this week that a relative called Ralph Nevill assisted Sheila in the massacre and was spotted as a hunched man leaving WHF. After the raid team entered WHF.
Lookout said Bamber didn't commit the massacre because the windows might have been painted the day before.
Nugs said the police said to Bamber 'we know you phoned you're cottage from WHF' when they didn't. While Jan complains that 20 sources are not enough as they are not all 'primary sources'.
The suggestion that a 27 year woman slept in the main bedroom with one of her parents, to be nearer two 6 year old boys (who were in another room) is just as warped.
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Neville and June held the cards over Sheila. Unless Sheila wanted to 'go it alone' as Bamber had tried a few years earlier. The twins were not really an issue. CC had them due to a mutual agreement between him and Sheila. They could visit Sheila when agreed.
I don't know if Sheila knew anything about moving back to Essex. Bamber certainly did.
CC's mother WS makes it very clear SC was very upset and distressed by not having the twins living with her. It wasn't going to change. CC would not have allowed the twins to live with SC again. I can't see any court ruling in SC's favour.
The Bambers must have appreciated the above. June would not want the twins living full-time with their father, an unemployed studio potter, living in rented accommodation in London with whatever girlfriend was around. The Bambers seemed to think a solution was to relocate SC and the twins to Essex. Again CC would not have agreed to this. Unlikely a court would rule against CC in favour of two mentally unwell women who according to CC, CC's mother and the twins teachers were having a detrimental impact on the twins.
It is possible the above drove SC to murder.
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There are always warped theories being suggested regarding this case. Which keeps the discussion going.
Mike has said this week that a relative called Ralph Nevill assisted Sheila in the massacre and was spotted as a hunched man leaving WHF. After the raid team entered WHF.
Lookout said Bamber didn't commit the massacre because the windows might have been painted the day before.
Nugs said the police said to Bamber 'we know you phoned you're cottage from WHF' when they didn't. While Jan complains that 20 sources are not enough as they are not all 'primary sources'.
The suggestion that a 27 year woman slept in the main bedroom with one of her parents, to be nearer two 6 year old boys (who were in another room) is just as warped.
Thankfully the case is now being managed by some very impressive people and it doesn't include any of the above, myself and most definitely not the CT!
I thought Jan was quite reasonable with her posts.
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The SoC photo of the bed in the main bedroom shows June left the bed by moving the duvet from left to right and leaving it open. NB left the bed and did not leave the duvet open. If he was escaping his bed under a hail of bullets why would he open it right to left to exit the bed but replace it?
I'm in bed at the moment on my phone whilst watching the Andrew Marr show on tv! Just call me Waynetta! Will try to find SoC photo later.
Doesn't look like Nevill's side been tidied up to me. If it was, JB might have fiddled about readjusting the bedclothes.
Have I just sent some expensive flowers to a certain Miss Slob!!!? Serves me right... I should have looked before I leapt.
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CC's mother WS makes it very clear SC was very upset and distressed by not having the twins living with her. It wasn't going to change. CC would not have allowed the twins to live with SC again. I can't see any court ruling in SC's favour.
The Bambers must have appreciated the above. June would not want the twins living full-time with their father, an unemployed studio potter, living in rented accommodation in London with whatever girlfriend was around. The Bambers seemed to think a solution was to relocate SC and the twins to Essex. Again CC would not have agreed to this. Unlikely a court would rule against CC in favour of two mentally unwell women who according to CC, CC's mother and the twins teachers were having a detrimental impact on the twins.
It is possible the above drove SC to murder.
In a word.. No!
Didn't one of Sheila's friends say she would be happy to receive £40 per week for working at OCP in future?
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Doesn't look like Nevill's side been tidied up to me. If it was, JB might have fiddled about readjusting the bedclothes.
Have I just sent some expensive flowers to a certain Miss Slob!!!? Serves me right... I should have looked before I leapt.
Up, showered and dressed now! What for brunch?
There's another photo. The photo you posted is clearly later as the box room door is open which the raid team imply was closed.
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In a word.. No!
Didn't one of Sheila's friends say she would be happy to receive £40 per week for working at OCP in future?
Yes Tora Tompkins said SC liked the idea of earning £40pw. I recently said £70 but you're right it was £40. But was SC prepared to relocate to Essex for this? CC's mother's WS said SC tried very hard to find work. Poor SC but well done to her for trying despite her mental illness.
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Up, showered and dressed now! What for brunch?
There's another photo. The photo you posted is clearly later as the box room door is open which the raid team imply was closed.
Home-made chicken and veg soup (eat your hearts out Jamie and Nigella!), followed by home-grown raspberries and cream.
The only photo I know of with that door closed is one taken much later, probably by the family... unless you know any different?
Sorry...I had to reduce the resolution and size to upload...
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Yes Tora Tompkins said SC liked the idea of earning £40pw. I recently said £70 but you're right it was £40. But was SC prepared to relocate to Essex for this? CC's mother's WS said SC tried very hard to find work. Poor SC but well done to her for trying despite her mental illness.
Maybe... if it meant improving her life, meeting and greeting people at OCP..
Right... need to get outside and some work done.
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"... in order to prevent further upset to Jeremy Bamber..." !!!?
Obviously a misprint... He must have been ecstatic at the thought of evidence being destroyed!
Unprecedented folly by Essex Police. It seemed as if Jeremy got whatever Jeremy wanted at that stage being the grieving son.
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CC's mother WS makes it very clear SC was very upset and distressed by not having the twins living with her. It wasn't going to change. CC would not have allowed the twins to live with SC again. I can't see any court ruling in SC's favour.
The Bambers must have appreciated the above. June would not want the twins living full-time with their father, an unemployed studio potter, living in rented accommodation in London with whatever girlfriend was around. The Bambers seemed to think a solution was to relocate SC and the twins to Essex. Again CC would not have agreed to this. Unlikely a court would rule against CC in favour of two mentally unwell women who according to CC, CC's mother and the twins teachers were having a detrimental impact on the twins.
It is possible the above drove SC to murder.
Definately not Holly and there is NO EVIDENCE she committed any murder.
I agree with your opening remarks however, June and Nevill wanted to bring the twins back to the farm and reintegrate them into the community. They were old enough by that stage, no longer babies and easier coped with. Having the twins back would have suited Sheila on so many levels and still allowed her time to do what she liked best. I don't think Colin would have had a leg to stand on, with June and Nevill's support Sheila could have regained custody.
Jeremy could see his inheritance slowly dwindling, the twins could have inherited the lot, they had to go.
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Home-made chicken and veg soup (eat your hearts out Jamie and Nigella!), followed by home-grown raspberries and cream.
The only photo I know of with that door closed is one taken much later, probably by the family... unless you know any different?
Sorry...I had to reduce the resolution and size to upload...
This was taken by the police/forensics around 2000 when they ripped up the carpets trying to get a sample of Sheila's DNA. As you can see the equipment is on the bed and the carpets have been ripped off the floor
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I think the four spent bullets found in the bedroom relate to June:
- DRH/35 x 2
- DRH/9
- DRH/5
June's GSW's as follows:
1) Between eyes above bridge of nose - bullet and fragments recovered
2) Ear/head - fragments recovered
3) Neck - bullet exited
4) Forearm - bullet exited
5) Upper chest - bullet recovered
6) Lower chest - bullet recovered
7) knee - bullet exited
It seems to me June's GSW's 2) and 3) must represent the two bullets found in the pillow 2 x DRH/35. And GSW's 4) and 5) represent DRH/9 and DRH/5.
Only 3 bullets exited June, 4 were recovered from inside of her and 3 exited and were found in the bedroom. . How could all 4 bullets in the bedroom relate to June? It is quite clear that DRH/5 relates to Nevill's graze wound.
I have repeatedly posted which bullets are associated which which wounds:
The largest bullet fragment associated with each wound in order of how the autopsy report refers to the wounds where possible:
Sheila
upper wound (chin) PV/19
lower wound (neck) PV/20
Nevill
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull
5) PV/10 (lip)
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7)PV/2 (Shoulder)
8)DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest
6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)
Daniel
There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room. There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds. The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:
PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)
Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow
Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of these fragments were removed during the autopsy so remained in the victim at burial.
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This was taken by the police/forensics around 2000 when they ripped up the carpets trying to get a sample of Sheila's DNA. As you can see the equipment is on the bed and the carpets have been ripped off the floor
(I thought you would be watching the last game of the season David? Man U v Bounemouth called off suspicious package. Last week the players coach was vandalised on its way to Upton Park &%+((£)
Did you mean June's DNA? As far as we know none of SC's blood was found in the bedroom? Although if what looks like blood was in fact under the bible it may well have belonged to SC and might have yielded some results.
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(I thought you would be watching the last game of the season David? Man U v Bounemouth called off suspicious package. Last week the players coach was vandalised on its way to Upton Park &%+((£)
Did you mean June's DNA? As far as we know none of SC's blood was found in the bedroom? Although if what looks like blood was in fact under the bible it may well have belonged to SC and might have yielded some results.
Around 2000 or 1999 they removed the carpets to see if they could find any of Sheila's blood/DNA that may have seeped through the carpet onto the floor board in 1985. They didn't find any but they looked, that what the photo myster uploaded is about.
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Doesn't look like Nevill's side been tidied up to me. If it was, JB might have fiddled about readjusting the bedclothes.
Have I just sent some expensive flowers to a certain Miss Slob!!!? Serves me right... I should have looked before I leapt.
I was thinking of this photo but now I've checked it out I think it's a replica of what you have posted from another angle:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198779#msg198779
Does it look like NB left his bed in a hurry? I guess it's like most of the soc photos down to interpretation!
It does show how perilously close the bible was to the opened box room door and how it could quite easily have been moved.
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Definately not Holly and there is NO EVIDENCE she committed any murder.
I agree with your opening remarks however, June and Nevill wanted to bring the twins back to the farm and reintegrate them into the community. They were old enough by that stage, no longer babies and easier coped with. Having the twins back would have suited Sheila on so many levels and still allowed her time to do what she liked best. I don't think Colin would have had a leg to stand on, with June and Nevill's support Sheila could have regained custody.
Jeremy could see his inheritance slowly dwindling, the twins could have inherited the lot, they had to go.
I'm not sure. It would be down to the courts to decide. CC sounds adamant in his letter about putting the welfare of the twins first. What caring parent wouldn't? In his eyes SC and June were both having a detrimental effect on the twins. The courts would take all sorts into consideration including June's and SC's long history of serious mental illness. This would not have boded well for SC and/or the Bambers with the courts.
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This was taken by the police/forensics around 2000 when they ripped up the carpets trying to get a sample of Sheila's DNA. As you can see the equipment is on the bed and the carpets have been ripped off the floor
You're right... on Fujicolor NPH400 Pro film. A Polaroid camera also on the bed (looks like an "Image SE or 2") with some instant photos already taken, swabs, roll of sticky tape, packet of neoprene forensic gloves? and a booklet with an official-looking logo.
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Scipio, is the excerpt you've posted from something post trial eg COLP? It states that although the items would not have been destroyed if the murders were by an unknown person "no further evidence would have been forthcoming had they been retained".
DC Hammersley's trial testimony states he removed everything of evidential value from the bed in the main bedroom.
No officer observed any blood on the bedding NB's side.
It is from the Dickinson Report. The Report noted how they destroyed most of the bedding within days and says while such was against protocol it ultimately would not have contained any physical evidence from the killer thus doesn't matter.
No officer was asked to record in documents whether they observed blood on Nevill's side. The only bedding taken into evidence was: 1) the bottom sheet of the bed, 2) June's pillows. Everything else was destroyed. They never did any testing on the sheet or pillows. Thus Dickinson felt they would not have done any testing on any of the other bedding either had they retained it and there is no reason to believe Jeremy's blood was on it so no reason to believe testing of the bedding would have helped establish his guilt.
The police felt the casings and bullet that grazed Nevill proved he was shot in the bedroom. They saw no need to try using blood evidence to establish it. Prior or at trial no one questioned that Nevill was shot in the bedroom based on a claim there was a lack of blood on the bed and floor on Nevill's side thus there was no need to ask police about the blood on his side of the bed. How much they would remember is questionable anyway given they paid such little mind to the bedding. The police never mention blood on June's side of the quilt either. They didn't mention it because they thought it was of no investigative value which is also why they destroyed it. the fact they don't mention it doesn't mean it wasn't there we can see there is blood on her side of the quilt
Subsequent to the convictions is when blood experts were asked to assess photos of the bedding and thus when blood experts paid attention to the bedding. Photos show blood on the pillow and bottom sheet of June's bed but there are no photos that were taken of the sheets on Nevill's side. The only photos of his side were with the quilt blocking view of the sheets and most of these were taken at a distance the only one close up is a photo of Sheila which happens to include a portion of the quilt and it looks like there is blood on the quilt in that photo. The blood experts didn't say anything about the blood on the quilt on June's side of the bed because it told them little. What they paid attention to was blood on the pillow that got there by her bleeding head touching the pillow- which means she was shot in the head while lying down in bed not in the process of getting out of bed- and the bottom sheet had transfer marks showing her bleeding exit wounds were touching the sheet. There were no similar pictures taken of Nevill's sheets to analyze though he suffered no exit wounds that could cause the kinds of transfer stains they were looking to assess anyway. Nor did he suffer a head wound in a location that would allow transfer of blood to his pillow even if he had been lying down when shot.
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I was thinking of this photo but now I've checked it out I think it's a replica of what you have posted from another angle:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198779#msg198779 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198779#msg198779)
Does it look like NB left his bed in a hurry? I guess it's like most of the soc photos down to interpretation!
It does show how perilously close the bible was to the opened box room door and how it could quite easily have been moved.
No, David is correct... see above.
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You say you are following Vanezis but Vanezis believed that the first 4 wounds Nevill suffered were wounds 5-8 and that these were delivered upstairs while wounds 1-4 were delivered in the kitchen after Nevill had already had stopped struggling. My post shows that I knew the first 4 shots were fired downstairs.
What you just quoted failed to refute the points I made. What you just quoted makes clear Nevill was shot before he entered the kitchen because his blood was against the hall wall and it got there from him bumping into the wall before he entered the kitchen. You fail to address the bullet that grazed Nevill being in the bedroom and the location of the casings in the bedroom as well. I did! Look at the end of my post where I say that I agree 2 shots could have been fired in the bedroom..numbered 7 -8 Vanezis didn't suggest that either of these wounds would result in extensive external bleeding. Thus you fail to post any argument of any kind to justify viewing them as not having occurred in the bedroom. NO, because I agreed they probably were!
You completely ignored my point that they failed to test most of the blood in the bedroom. Vanezis simply reiterated that the limited blood they did test belonged to June. By your standard Sheila can't have been killed in the bedroom because none of the blood they tested was hers. Obviously this is not a valid standard. Oh come on! Blood is seen coming from Sheila's mouth and on her nightie...of course her blood is in the bedroom. You prefer to blame the lose of blood from NB in the bedroom being because... as you state ...only 2 of the carpet samples were tested. I can clearly see June's pillow covered in blood, and Neville's without any! I therefore query the fact that NB was actually in bed.....carpet samples checked or not.
A majority of blood from a lip and jaw wound would actually be internal not external. That which would be external wound not need to land on the floor. The majority of blood that drips from a face lands on clothing. No where did Vanezis suggest Neville would have to have dripped extensive amounts of blood on the floor. I agreed that NB could have been shot twice in bedroom... bottom of my post..shots 7-8 It's the 5th and 6th shots that concern me...if NB was shot 4 times it wasn't in bed!
Did the hall Nevill walked through while bleeding have any blood on the floor noted let alone a lot of blood? Did the kitchen have a lot of blood anywhere other than what pooled after Nevill died? No. My point exactly! If neville was shot 4 times upstairs 2 of which would have bled profusely where is the blood on the stairs etc?
Could Nevill have been shot on the left side after he was knocked out? No because his right side was exposed not his left.
Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom and June shot 6 and then the gun was empty. The gun being empty without Neville being disabled is the only reason the struggle in the kitchen took place. I also believe a struggle took place in the kitchen, I just have a problem with the 4 shots in the bedroom....and before you say...I know 13 casings were found in the bedroom. This is the view that was advanced at trial and to this day is the only scenario that accounts for the struggle in the kitchen, location of the spent cases and bullets as well as trajectory of the wounds. Only 3 casings found in kitchen.
While Nevill didn't have to bleed in the bedroom he probably did. They did not test all or even most of the blood that was on the bedroom carpet. They only cut out 2 squares from the carpet and tested 5 drops in each square. They failed to seize all blood that had been on the carpet thus could not test it all. I don't deny NB could have bled in the bedroom, having been shot twice, but the 5-6 shots would have caused a lot of blood
Nevill's side of the quilt has what looks like blood on it. while some people suggest it is just the pattern of the comforter, it looks a lot more red than the background pattern and doesn't seem to match the background pattern it looks like the blood that was observed on June's side of the comforter. Exactly, June's blood. I believe if it is blood, then it's June's.
This comforter was not collected as evidence by police it was left behind and when police agreed to clean the place up of anything with blood they burned it along with other blood stained items. Thus the lab was unable to test whose blood was on it: You are surmising that although there is no blood on NB's side of the bed/pillow the quilt had NB's blood on it.
(http://s32.postimg.org/deq68xgqd/dickinsonpara189.jpg)
(http://s32.postimg.org/m8hzss1kl/nevillquit.jpg)
(http://s32.postimg.org/pb0cd6n05/junequilt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
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No, David is correct... see above.
Yes David is correct is re the late nineties/early noughties photo but I retrieved the photo I was thinking about it just doesn't show what I thought it did!
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Only 3 bullets exited June, 4 were recovered from inside of her and 3 exited and were found in the bedroom. . How could all 4 bullets in the bedroom relate to June? It is quite clear that DRH/5 relates to Nevill's graze wound.
I have repeatedly posted which bullets are associated which which wounds:
The largest bullet fragment associated with each wound in order of how the autopsy report refers to the wounds where possible:
Sheila
upper wound (chin) PV/19
lower wound (neck) PV/20
Nevill
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body
2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1
3) PV/3 top of skull
4) PV/4 top of skull
5) PV/10 (lip)
6) PV/11 (jaw)
7)PV/2 (Shoulder)
8)DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
June
1) PV/25 between eyes
2) PV/26 above right ear
3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
5) PV/24 right upper chest
6) PV/23 lower chest
7) DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)
Daniel
There were 5 entrance wounds in an arc in the back of his head. The largest fragment from 4 bullets were recovered from his body, nearly all of the 5th bullet exited his body and was found in the room. There was insufficient detail in the autopsy report to match the 5 bullet fragments to specific entry wounds. The following 5 bullet fragments are each associated with an entry wound:
PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)
Nicholas
Left cheek bone
Left of bridge of the nose
Outer aspect of right eyebrow
Vanezis recovered the largest fragment from 2 of the 3 wounds PV/30 and PV/31 but he didn't detail which entrance wound each bullet fragment was associated with. The third bullet fragmented into small parts in the head and none of these fragments were removed during the autopsy so remained in the victim at burial.
The autopsy report for June states fragments were recovered in respect of GSW 2. It makes no reference to any bullet. Fragments and a bullet were recovered in respect of GSW1. It seems to me the bullets found in June's pillow are more likely to pertain to the GSW's she sustained to her ear/head and neck whilst her head was on the pillow as opposed to her forearm. It's possible fragments lodged internally with the rest of the bullet exiting. I will have to look at the weights again. I can't remember. Must be my age/hormones 8(8-))
How is it possible to say for certain which exited bullets pertain to which wounds? Dr Vanezis states he didn't know the sequence of shots.
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I can see any blood on Nevill's side - it just looks like the pattern.
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Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom.
PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding. Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side. This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed. In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
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I can see any blood on Nevill's side - it just looks like the pattern.
I cant see any.
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Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom.
PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding. Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side. This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed. In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
PC Collins also makes ref to the covers pulled back and blood stains June's side.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=160.0;attach=6057
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Trail of NB's ? blood from bedroom:
- Main bedroom - none identified
- Landing - two tiny spots - tested but inconclusive results
- Stairs - according to AE's WS EP cleaned blood from stairs but not tested
- Hall - none identified on floor but a smear on the wall matching NB's 'O' antigen
- Kitchen - a "light distribution" was identified but not tested
I find it so odd that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what blood was tested. Why test tiny spots on the landing carpet but not the blood that was removed by cleaning from the carpet on the stairs?
Why test the wallpaper but not the bible?
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Members of the raid team did comment on the bedding in the main bedroom.
PC Woodcock states one side of the bed was more dishevelled than the other and he was aware of blood on the bedding. Other raid team members make reference to blood June's side but nothing NB's side. This obviously doesn't mean there wasn't any just that none was observed. In the absence of forensic analysis impossible to be certain.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
It doesn't say anything about blood on June's side it just said blood on the bedclothes. It says the bedclothes were pulled down more on one side than the other simply. Bedclothes seems to be what we call a quilt or comforter in America. Bedclothes would be thought to mean pajamas by us if not for the context.
My whole point is that we know there was blood on the quilt but since it was burned instead of examined and no detailed photos taken we have no idea as to the full extent. Thus one can't say it was blood free on Nevill's side that is just a guess people are making without any evidence to back it up. Such speculation can't be used to refute the location of the bullet that grazed Nevill and shell casings.
We similarly are in no position to know whether any of the blood on the rug that went untested was Nevill's. They only tested blood that was at the foot of the bed not any of the blood on Nevill's side of the bed and only in 2 locations at the foot (the left and right side of the foot) and only 5 drops in each of these 2 swatches. Since they took such little interest in documenting all the blood and testing it we are in the dark as to how much blood was on the quilt, precisely where all blood on the quilt was and thus who all of it belonged to.
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I cant see any.
That photo is too far and has the quilt bunched up too boot. I posted the photo that shows the quilt more closely than any other and there are what appear ot be blood stains. They look just like the blood staining in the photos of June's side close up.
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I find it so odd that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what blood was tested. Why test tiny spots on the landing carpet but not the blood that was removed by cleaning from the carpet on the stairs?
Why test the wallpaper but not the bible?
Whose blood was on the Bible would not tell anything about who the killer was. They presumed it was Sheila's blood anyway since it was sitting in a pool of blood they figured had to be hers.
They tested blood in the hall to try to see movement which is the same reason they tested the blood at the foot of the bed and that dripped on the socks. The same with the hall wallpaper.
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The autopsy report for June states fragments were recovered in respect of GSW 2. It makes no reference to any bullet. Fragments and a bullet were recovered in respect of GSW1. It seems to me the bullets found in June's pillow are more likely to pertain to the GSW's she sustained to her ear/head and neck whilst her head was on the pillow as opposed to her forearm. It's possible fragments lodged internally with the rest of the bullet exiting. I will have to look at the weights again. I can't remember. Must be my age/hormones 8(8-))
How is it possible to say for certain which exited bullets pertain to which wounds? Dr Vanezis states he didn't know the sequence of shots.
PV/5 is the only fragment Vanezis recovered which was not a unique bullet fragment. It was a small portion of the bullet fired into Nevill's lip or jaw. It's the only tiny fragment he wasted time to recover and label as an exhibit. All other bullet fragments he recovered were the largest remaining fragment from such bullet.
Fletcher's report helps detail what body parts they were recovered from. That in conjunction with the autopsy report is what I used to piece together what I posted. The level of detail with the twins is insufficient because he didn't number those wounds and give enough detail to match them precisely to each wound. You can only do totals, especially since he recovered nothing at all from one bullet.
Autopsy quotes:
1) "recovered from base of left side of skull"
2) "recovered from the left side of the base of the skull"
3) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
4) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
5) "bullet was recovered from between T3 and T4"
6) "lower aspect of the body of T9, from where the bullet was recovered"
7) bullet exited thus no bullet was recovered
So according to his autopsy report he recovered bullets from 4 wounds while 3 exited and were not recovered.
His November report which details his exhibit list identifies the 4 bullet exhibits he recovered from June and it is sufficiently detailed to be able to figure out which bullet goes to which wound without even needing to consult Fletcher's report:
(http://s32.postimg.org/byi0hm5h1/vanezisnovemberreportjunebullets.jpg)
There were only 3 bullets not recovered from her body. One entered the bed after exiting her knee. The other 2 ended up in her pillow. The 4th bullet in the bedroom was associated with Nevill's graze wound.
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That photo is too far and has the quilt bunched up too boot. I posted the photo that shows the quilt more closely than any other and there are what appear ot be blood stains. They look just like the blood staining in the photos of June's side close up.
There is no way anyone was shot on that side of the bed. If that was the case the blood would be all over it, like June's side
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The presence or otherwise of blood on Nevill's pillow or on his side of the bed would be an indicator as to when he was first shot. Is there any evidence of this?
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Oh come on! Blood is seen coming from Sheila's mouth and on her nightie...of course her blood is in the bedroom. You prefer to blame the lose of blood from NB in the bedroom being because... as you state ...only 2 of the carpet samples were tested. I can clearly see June's pillow covered in blood, and Neville's without any! I therefore query the fact that NB was actually in bed.....carpet samples checked or not.
There is no requirement that blood drip off a victim's clothing or body onto the floor. Nevill could have bled on his pajamas and not the bedding or the floor period in the room where he was shot in the face and jaw. Show me where experts said that blood would have to leak on the floor as opposed to his clothing. Did you ever bleed from the mouth? I have and ruined plenty of shirts that is what gets hit the most though pants do get some as well.
In any event he could have sat there dripping blood on the quilt. Police say the quilt had blood but never detail or document where every drop of blood was and destroyed it so it can never be known. The blood on June's pillow got there by her head being shot while it was against the pillow and her head continuing to be against the pillow as it was bleeding. The blood on the sheets got there from her bleeding exit wounds touching the sheets. Nevill wasn't hit in any area of his head that would touch the pillow and transfer blood even if he had been lying down when shot. He suffered no exit wounds thus had no exit wounds that would be touching the sheet. In sum he had no wounds like June suffered that would be able to leave blood on the sheets and pillows. It is totally unrealistic to require bloodstains on the pillow and bottom sheets wen he suffered no wounds of a nature to leave such stains.
The only blood stains his wounds could leave would be dripping onto the quilt. You have no basis to say his blood wasn't on the quilt. They said the quilt was bloody but failed to document where all such blood was , failed to test it and destroyed it.
No floor in the house not even the kitchen floor had any sign of significant blood dripping from Nevill's mouth to the floor immediately after being shot in the lip and jaw. The only significant bleeding on the kitchen floor got there after his body was in the position in which it was found and gravity went to work in draining him yet it is impossible for him to have been shot to the left side of his face and jaw while in such position because his left side was hidden by the wall.
You keep insisting there had to be extensive blood from his lip and jaw room where he was shot yet can't point to any such extensive blood anywhere.
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There is no way anyone was shot on that side of the bed. If that was the case the blood would be all over it, like June's side
June's side has limited blood on the quilt most of the blood is on the pillows and sheet and that blood got on the sheet from her exit wounds and on the pillow from a wound that was touching the pillow. Nevill had no exit wounds to bleed against the bedsheet from and no head wound that would be touching his pillow.
The blood on June's side of the quilt is not nearly was extensive as the blood on the sheets and pillow. Neivll didn't have to get that much if any blood on the quilt. Getting shot as he was getting out of bed would result in him mainly bleeding on his clothing. In any event there appears to be blood on his side of the quilt. The closeups I showed feature dark red stains that look like the blood on June's side not the pattern of the quilt. You have no proof that his side lacked blood you just speculate such. Such speculation means nothing. In order to be able to argue there was no blood on the quilt you need proof and speculation is not proof.
The police said there was blood on it so they destroyed it. They failed to detail/document where all the blood was before destroying it. Speculation that there was no blood on Nevill's side is meaningless and has no ability to contradict the location of the casings and bullet that grazed Nevill as well as the trajectory of the shots all of which correspond to Nevill being shot on his bed as he was sitting or in the process of rising.
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PV/5 is the only fragment Vanezis recovered which was not a unique bullet fragment. It was a small portion of the bullet fired into Nevill's lip or jaw. It's the only tiny fragment he wasted time to recover and label as an exhibit. All other bullet fragments he recovered were the largest remaining fragment from such bullet.
Fletcher's report helps detail what body parts they were recovered from. That in conjunction with the autopsy report is what I used to piece together what I posted. The level of detail with the twins is insufficient because he didn't number those wounds and give enough detail to match them precisely to each wound. You can only do totals, especially since he recovered nothing at all from one bullet.
Autopsy quotes:
1) "recovered from base of left side of skull"
2) "recovered from the left side of the base of the skull"
3) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
4) bullet exited thus no bullet recovered
5) "bullet was recovered from between T3 and T4"
6) "lower aspect of the body of T9, from where the bullet was recovered"
7) bullet exited thus no bullet was recovered
So according to his autopsy report he recovered bullets from 4 wounds while 3 exited and were not recovered.
His November report which details his exhibit list identifies the 4 bullet exhibits he recovered from June and it is sufficiently detailed to be able to figure out which bullet goes to which wound without even needing to consult Fletcher's report:
(http://s32.postimg.org/byi0hm5h1/vanezisnovemberreportjunebullets.jpg)
There were only 3 bullets not recovered from her body. One entered the bed after exiting her knee. The other 2 ended up in her pillow. The 4th bullet in the bedroom was associated with Nevill's graze wound.
Thanks Scipio. I'll have to take myself off to a darkened room and get back to you.
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The presence or otherwise of blood on Nevill's pillow or on his side of the bed would be an indicator as to when he was first shot. Is there any evidence of this?
None of his wounds were of a nature that would transfer blood to his pillow or the bottom sheet. The only way to transfer blood to the bottom sheet from a wound would be for someone to have exit wounds or to roll over so that an entrance wound is touching the bottom sheet. The same is true of a pillow. The wound would need to exit in a location near the pillow or the entrance wound touching the pillow. June suffered exit wounds and a head wound near the pillow but Nevill didn't.
The only bleeding Nevill could do would be to have blood leak on the quilt as he was sitting up but that is only if the quilt were right under his wound covering up his legs/crotch. Possibly some small drops could have gotten on the top sheet or bottom sheet.
Police destroyed the quilt because it was covered in blood. They never documented where all such blood was on the quilt. So we have no way to know how much blood if any was on Nevill's side. Similarly they destroyed the top sheet and Nevill's pillows without documenting anything. They actually took the bottom sheet into evidence but failed to test any of the blood on it and failed to document whether there were any small drips on Nevill's side. The photos taken of the bottom bedsheet are from a distance that they would not capture small drips on Nevill's side.
The only photo that shows any of Nevill's side of the quilt relatively close is this one (left side) and it appears to have blood:
(http://i.imgur.com/LOvCi.jpg)
For comparison here is a close up of June's side which has blood you can see how the blood is darker than the background pattern
(http://s32.postimg.org/pb0cd6n05/junequilt.jpg)
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Thanks Scipio. I'll have to take myself off to a darkened room and get back to you.
My cheat sheet about the bullets is fully accurate for the adults. The only unknown is whether tiny PV/5 was from Nevill's lip or jaw wound but it makes no material difference anyway which is why I usually don't even mention it. Some people become confused thinking it means Nevill was shot 9 times.
What I pieced together for the boys is accurate but as noted we can't match specific bullets to specific wounds for them (other than the bullet that exited which makes it a "no duh" assessment) . Vanezis didn't do a good enough job to enable us to know with the ones he removed. The bullets and wounds were all so close together that you would need really good descriptions from the ME.
I think I even posted in my cheatsheet which bullets were matched to the Anschutz and which were not. Obviously the one never recovered from the body wasn't matched. This one is usually never referenced in such assessment though it should be hence I did.
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The way I see it is this.
Jeremy Bamber knew how to get into the farmhouse undetected. If our house dog is anything to go by (she barks at everything) I believe Crispy probably alerted to someone on the stairs.. Nevill meantime would get up and make for the door. Door opens, gunman shoots!
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The way I see it is this.
Jeremy Bamber knew how to get into the farmhouse undetected. If our house dog is anything to go by (she barks at everything) I believe Crispy probably alerted to someone on the stairs.. Nevill meantime would get up and make for the door. Door opens, gunman shoots!
How could the casings get behind the door and on the bed from someone shooting while standing in the hallway or even in the doorway itself? The would bounce off the hall wall down the stairs.
The only way to get behind the door would be by shooting at someone who is in the bed. 8 of the 11 casings were on the bed or June's side of the bed behind the door.
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How could the casings get behind the door and on the bed from someone shooting while standing in the hallway or even in the doorway itself? The would bounce off the hall wall down the stairs.
The only way to get behind the door would be by shooting at someone who is in the bed. 8 of the 11 casings were on the bed or June's side of the bed behind the door.
Yes, the shooter had to have entered the bedroom.
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Does anyone know if Neville Bamber wore glasses? I seem to remember seeing a photo of Neville B and Jeremy B ( when JB was young) standing by a tractor...NB having glasses on....it's now bugging me!
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Does anyone know if Neville Bamber wore glasses? I seem to remember seeing a photo of Neville B and Jeremy B ( when JB was young) standing by a tractor...NB having glasses on....it's now bugging me!
I believe he did, for close work, reading, etc.... but why ask?
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Thanks Myster.
I asked because looking at the main bedroom 'LAMP' photo where the telephone was moved from, I feel sure there is a pair of glasses on the bedside table! It only shows the arms of the glasses, and they look very light. They look as though they have been placed there by someone that side of the bed. If they are glasses then in all probability NB was in bed.
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Thanks Myster.
I asked because looking at the main bedroom 'LAMP' photo where the telephone was moved from, I feel sure there is a pair of glasses on the bedside table! It only shows the arms of the glasses, and they look very light. They look as though they have been placed there by someone that side of the bed. If they are glasses then in all probability NB was in bed.
Aaah, I see. Yes, there does seem to be a pair of glasses with translucent frames? to the right, and also a pair of headphones? again with a white or translucent headband to the left. You can just make out the dark foam earpieces. Maybe these were used with the clock-radio on the shelf above?
(http://i.imgur.com/55oPF9u.jpg)
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Yes I see the headphones now! Do you think the square clear marks ( in the dust marks) on top of the Clock/Radio and down the side, were from where the telephone originally stood, or fingerprint powder tests around something, or even the bible laying opened before being knocked onto the floor, or placed on the floor. The reason I ask is because there were spots of blood on the Lamp, so was NB reading that bible? The blood spots couldn't have come from SC onto the lamp as there are no other blood spots on the bedside cabinet.
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Does anyone know if Neville Bamber wore glasses? I seem to remember seeing a photo of Neville B and Jeremy B ( when JB was young) standing by a tractor...NB having glasses on....it's now bugging me!
I think there's a photo of NB with glasses reading to the twins in CAL's book.
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Has anyone noticed the lamp June's side? The stand features a frightening face.
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I think there's a photo of NB with glasses reading to the twins in CAL's book.
He's just sitting with the twins in CAL's. In Colin's book he's wearing gold rimmed specs and reading to them. There's another one of him, again wearing specs, busy doing something on the front lawn in Wilkes'.
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Has anyone noticed the lamp June's side? The stand features a frightening face.
Looks like a vertically-challenged owl wearing an oversized fez...
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Yes I see the headphones now! Do you think the square clear marks ( in the dust marks) on top of the Clock/Radio and down the side, were from where the telephone originally stood, or fingerprint powder tests around something, or even the bible laying opened before being knocked onto the floor, or placed on the floor. The reason I ask is because there were spots of blood on the Lamp, so was NB reading that bible? The blood spots couldn't have come from SC onto the lamp as there are no other blood spots on the bedside cabinet.
I'm having second thoughts about the glasses on the right, as it might only be white flex of the headphones on the left. Definitely headphones though... maybe NB used these with the clock-radio so as not to disturb June if she was asleep or while she was reading her bible.
I don't think they are dust marks because the rest of the cabinet is dust-free (or fingerprint powder as this would be carried out later), but more likely to be a reflection of the light wallpaper and darker ceiling on the shiny black top of the clock-radio. Similarly with the bedclothes being reflected on the clear perspex front face of the digital clock.
Weren't blood spots only present on the (owl) lampshade on the other bedside cabinet?
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Looks like a vertically-challenged owl wearing an oversized fez...
Yes I think you're right. I think I was thrown by the white bit which looks like a set of teeth.
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Yes I think you're right. I think I was thrown by the white bit which looks like a set of teeth.
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* Just recognised the face now and it made me jump! One of those optical illusions you're fond of. Don't think I'd sleep with that staring back at me, but it's probably a pot of cold cream or similar in front of the owl.
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Looks like a vertically-challenged owl wearing an oversized fez...
Odd that they each had a different lamp most people have matching lamps.
Take special note of where DRH-8 was found. It could not get in such location by shooting at June in bed. It would only get there from shooting at someone on Nevill's side of the bed. Either it was fired after June moved the covers to try top get up or a fluke resulted in it landing higher up than the quilt was pulled as June was sleeping. If the shots to Nevill took place while June still had her covers pulled over her then most if not all such casings hitting June's side of the bed would have hit the top of the quilt not gotten underneath. With her kicking around and keeping her knee up turning the quilt into a tent so to speak the casings would not stay on the quilt but rather bounce off to the floor. Several casings were on the floor right next to her side of the bed where they would be if they bounced off the quilt or were throw off by June removing the quilt from her body.
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Aaah, I see. Yes, there does seem to be a pair of glasses with translucent frames? to the right, and also a pair of headphones? again with a white or translucent headband to the left. You can just make out the dark foam earpieces. Maybe these were used with the clock-radio on the shelf above?
(http://i.imgur.com/55oPF9u.jpg)
It just looks like surled up wire from the phone to me.
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Odd that they each had a different lamp most people have matching lamps.
The older some people get, Scipio, the less bothered they are about matching pairs, and I guess the Bambers weren't too concerned about inviting their nearest neighbours in Pages Lane to show off their bedroom decor.
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It just looks like surled up wire from the phone to me.
I thought GPO Type 746 rotary dial phones in 1985 had their own cable permanently attached to the phone which then plugged directly into a wall socket, rather than a separate cable with two plugs - one to plug into a socket on the phone, the other into a wall socket?
The cable/flex on the right doesn't seem thick enough to be used for a phone, but more likely to be thin two wire flex for the headphones... if they are headphones?
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I thought GPO Type 746 rotary dial phones in 1985 had their own cable permanently attached to the phone which then plugged directly into a wall socket, rather than a separate cable with two plugs - one to plug into a socket on the phone, the other into a wall socket?
The cable/flex on the right doesn't seem thick enough to be used for a phone, but more likely to be thin two wire flex for the headphones... if they are headphones?
Whatever kind of cable, it doesn't look like glasses, it looks like cable
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I thought GPO Type 746 rotary dial phones in 1985 had their own cable permanently attached to the phone which then plugged directly into a wall socket, rather than a separate cable with two plugs - one to plug into a socket on the phone, the other into a wall socket?
The cable/flex on the right doesn't seem thick enough to be used for a phone, but more likely to be thin two wire flex for the headphones... if they are headphones?
In 1983 they began changing the design of phones so that they no longer needed to be hard wired. In 1986 they phased out the hard wired ones entirely. Because of the lightning storm ruined the old one and he had to change the socket and all it is possible Cresswell installed the new style. Cresswell didn't specify whether he kept the old style or put in the new kind. What wire could have been used in the kitchen though if it had been left in the bedroom? The kitchen phone was undamaged by the lightning so didn't need to be replaced.
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Yes Myster....it's headphones alright. I think your right....it's not glasses...but the cable that run from the headphones. See attachment of old set of headphones in next post.
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http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/7LYAAOSwDk5UF02C/$_35.JPG?set_id=2 (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/7LYAAOSwDk5UF02C/$_35.JPG?set_id=2)
actually they are earphones in the 'lamp' photo and not headphones in my opinion.
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In 1983 they began changing the design of phones so that they no longer needed to be hard wired. In 1986 they phased out the hard wired ones entirely. Because of the lightning storm ruined the old one and he had to change the socket and all it is possible Cresswell installed the new style. Cresswell didn't specify whether he kept the old style or put in the new kind. What wire could have been used in the kitchen though if it had been left in the bedroom? [/b The kitchen phone was undamaged by the lightning so didn't need to be replaced.
Scipio....I looked this up in the Jeremy Bamber book.
Jean Bouttel testified in Court that the cream round finger dial telephone which was usually in the main bedroom was now in the kitchen with the cord running through the hatch in the wall behind and into the drinks cupboard.
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Scipio....I looked this up in the Jeremy Bamber book.
Jean Bouttel testified in Court that the cream round finger dial telephone which was usually in the main bedroom was now in the kitchen with the cord running through the hatch in the wall behind and into the drinks cupboard.
I think you missed my point.
The kitchen phone was presumably a model that was hardwired. It was not damaged during the thunderstorm hence not replaced with a newer model. Thus after being unplugged the wire would still be attached to it and remain that when when hidden. If the bedroom phone was a recent model without hardwiring and the wire it used was left in the bedroom then it would have no wire to plug into the kitchen socket. The only way to plug it in would be if the cradle to the cordless phone was not hardwired and that cord was used. One would expect though that Pike would ask where the wire was if it was not given back to him when he took the cordless phone back.
I suppose the wire from the cordless phone could potentially have been used if it's cradle wasn't hardwired.
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http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/7LYAAOSwDk5UF02C/$_35.JPG?set_id=2 (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/7LYAAOSwDk5UF02C/$_35.JPG?set_id=2)
actually they are earphones in the 'lamp' photo and not headphones in my opinion.
I think they're a halfway house between the simple earphones in your photo where the earpieces are inserted in the ear meatus, and more expensive headphones with earpieces that rest on the ears. I used to have a cheap version of the latter type (and similar to those resting on the bedside cupboard), where the head size adjustment was achieved by sliding each foam-covered earpiece forward or backward along the notched plastic ends of the headband.
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Scipio....I looked this up in the Jeremy Bamber book.
Jean Bouttel testified in Court that the cream round finger dial telephone which was usually in the main bedroom was now in the kitchen with the cord running through the hatch in the wall behind and into the drinks cupboard.
I think you missed my point.
The kitchen phone was presumably a model that was hardwired. It was not damaged during the thunderstorm hence not replaced with a newer model. Thus after being unplugged the wire would still be attached to it and remain that when when hidden. If the bedroom phone was a recent model without hardwiring and the wire it used was left in the bedroom then it would have no wire to plug into the kitchen socket. The only way to plug it in would be if the cradle to the cordless phone was not hardwired and that cord was used. One would expect though that Pike would ask where the wire was if it was not given back to him when he took the cordless phone back.
I suppose the wire from the cordless phone could potentially have been used if it's cradle wasn't hardwired.
The hatch was probably slid open slightly or there was already a small hole in it to allow the cord and plug to pass through.
The rotary dial 746 was fitted with a permanent power/communication cord. So to be carried anywhere it only had to be unplugged from a wall socket , then plugged in again where it was to be used.
Fixed handset cord on the left and fixed power/communication cord on the right.
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The hatch was probably slid open slightly or there was already a small hole in it to allow the cord and plug to pass through.
The rotary dial 746 was fitted with a permanent power/communication cord. So to be carried anywhere it only had to be unplugged from a wall socket , then plugged in again where it was to be used.
Fixed handset cord on the left and fixed power/communication cord on the right.
From 1983 forward some phones were changed so they were no longer hard wired and from 1986 no phones were hardwired. The 746 is one of those that was changed though there are no sources which indicate which year it transitioned. That is why you see sources discussing most pre 1986 phones needing to be changed though some post 1983 were already transitioned.
The problem is that even if the 746 installed in June 1985 was one of the new models lacking the integral cord the kitchen phone had an integral cord so there would be no kitchen wire to use and thus the bedroom wire would still have to be used.
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From 1983 forward some phones were changed so they were no longer hard wired and from 1986 no phones were hardwired. The 746 is one of those that was changed though there are no sources which indicate which year it transitioned. That is why you see sources discussing most pre 1986 phones needing to be changed though some post 1983 were already transitioned.
The problem is that even if the 746 installed in June 1985 was one of the new models lacking the integral cord the kitchen phone had an integral cord so there would be no kitchen wire to use and thus the bedroom wire would still have to be used.
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Scipio....can you tell by the photo of the phone in the kitchen of WHF as to whether the cream round dial phone was lacking the integral cord? I'm hopeless at this!
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Scipio....can you tell by the photo of the phone in the kitchen of WHF as to whether the cream round dial phone was lacking the integral cord? I'm hopeless at this!
The only way to tell is to see the back of the phone. I can say with great confidence that police had no reason to turn the phone around in order to take a photo of the back.
I can also fairly confident that even if the bedroom phone was the new one without an integral cord that Jeremy would take the cord and phone not just a phone with no cord to the kitchen. Only if he knew there was a cord already in the kitchen to use would he have the ability to leave the bedroom cord. The housekeeper and secretary said the kitchen phone had the cord wrapped around it when it was found. That leaves only the cord from the cordless phone cradle as a possibility and I think Pike would have made sure he collected the cord when he retrieved the cordless phone. He mentioned making sure he took the splitter adapter which allowed 2 phones to be used in 1 socket.
So all in all I doubt there was a phone cord sitting in the bedroom.