UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on May 14, 2016, 08:59:07 PM
-
Every time I read the files I find new information. Someone should have tried to get copies of the e-mails between Dr David Payne and MW to see if he actually did tell them what they planned to do about the childcare.
Apparently the 'listening service' or lack thereof caused consternation during the booking process;
87
-
So Matthew Oldfield told us that Mr Payne informed MW in his e-mails that the reason they wanted to have apartments near to each other was because they were planning to 'listen' for the children in the evenings. He also says that the lack of an official 'listening service; was the reason for Kate's hesitation about the holiday.
David's explanation begins in his rog. interview;
then there had been some questioning about the err you know the fact that it wasn't the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as you know other Mark Warner's err you know and you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in err you know the apartments and I'd had quite a discussion with Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed err together.'
[So, they discussed the fact that it was a different kind of holiday than other's offered by Mark Warner, so because of that they wanted to be together. I notice he doesn't say what the difference was and why the difference made it important to be together.]
"And the rationale for that was just that we would you know it's just easier if you are all in the same lot, you know you can go next door and you know, just from the children's point of view you know we would all be segregated if you like. Err and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn't the same, it wasn't you know the same self contain but err yeah there was similar facilities available.
[So it was so you could go next door? I've no idea what he means by 'the children's point of view']
I know that err again there'd been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both err parties weren't a hundred percent you know sure on that type of holiday. I can't say exactly you know what the reasons, I can't remember and from that point of view but in the end you know we just thought oh it's a great holiday there's, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there.
[Gerry and Kate had some concerns about 'the type of holiday', whatever that means. He doesn't remember why (although according to Matthew he remembered exactly why after Madeleine had disappeared). Anyway, in the end they decided to go for it. Why? The fact that everyone knew each other is mentioned; could that be because it was planned that two people at a time would check all the children? That's been mentioned in one statement which suggests the plan was not to check their own children, but to take turns to check all the children at each visit]
1485 "Mm, so just so I've got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it come out in the period that the holiday was booked''
00:15:19
Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just something which is implanted since we've discussed after err Madeleine's disappearance.'
there was other things that were slightly different you know obviously from the childcare you know point of view. They had the, you know they had the listening service that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that we'd been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner.......
we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn't offer that service.
[So they decided before going that they would replicate the 'listening service'. Note he says 'we actually went into rooms', then changes it to 'the other couples'. The the 'we's return. Thinking it through, they all agreed they would go and operate their own listening service by taking it in turns to go and check. On arrival the other three couples find the Paynes have brought a state of the art baby monitor so have opted out of helping with the listening completely. Nice. Or did he really mean 'we'? Gerry said Mr Payne checked the McCann children on Wedenesday evening]
I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was close enough to make everything as easy as possible, you know from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or during the evening.'
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
-
If Kate was nervous about going then no way would she have left her children in an unlocked apartment. Talk about Jekyll and Hyde.
"I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious." FP Kate's best friend
&%+((£
-
//
If Kate was nervous about going then no way would she have left her children in an unlocked apartment. Talk about Jekyll and Hyde.
"I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they're like as parents, and they're certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they're very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I've got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious." FP Kate's best friend
&%+((£
Fiona says they are very very careful parents. Then she says they're very different; Kate's very cautious. Gerry's not then? Only one of them is cautious.
Cautious;
prudent, vigilant, thinking twice, safe, cagey.
Hmm. She acted totally out of character then?
-
//
Fiona says they are very very careful parents. Then she says they're very different; Kate's very cautious. Gerry's not then? Only one of them is cautious.
Cautious;
prudent, vigilant, thinking twice, safe, cagey.
Hmm. She acted totally out of character then?
According to Kate's best friend YES and she didn't know the apartment was unlocked until she was told by Kate at the table just before Madeleine disappeared. Another amazing coincidence.
-
Gerry is clear about the need to be near each other;
He adds that the only stipulation by the group was that the apartments had to be close to one another because, contrary to the tour brochure, the resort did not provide a "baby listening" service
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
He says it was because there was no listening service. The two things are clearly related, despite Mr Payne's waffling explanation.
-
Jane Tanner mentions the request to be together, but not the reason. She says it's normal for Brits to leave their children sleeping and go out, but then says she only did it because the others did. She confirms that she took part in listening checks at windows and doors. She says it wasn't the first day [Sunday] When the Tapas booking became a permanent one.
On arrival the rooms were already assigned, [they] having asked, when buying the holiday in England, to stay in apartments close to one another......
The Millenium used to serve dinner on other days (except Saturday) only from 19:30 and, for this reason, they decided to start dining at the Tapas, seeing that, in addition to the above, they would be closer to the apartments. This was discussed at the table in the Millenium on the first night.
Dinner was taken at the Tapas in order to be closer to the apartments where the children were sleeping.
At first dinner was booked each day having later been diarised as a permanent booking for 20h30 until the end of the stay.......
It is normal (culturally, traditionally, education/examples seen) [for] English tourists to leave, for some time, their small children alone in the bedroom/apartment to sleep while the parents are absent, normally guaranteeing that it is done for short periods of time (15/30 minutes). At those times there is a sporadic check, in time, of the places where the children are.....
She never entered apartments of other couples limiting herself only to listen for any noise, putting her ear to the children's bedroom window at the front of the apartment. Only with her own children did she enter the apartment, in all others she limited herself to listen at the doors to see if there was any noise......
Personally, in relation to her daughters, she has not habitually adopted this posture, namely, to leave them alone, having done it only because all the couples of the group did it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
-
"contrary to the tour brochure, the resort did not provide a baby listening service"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
In fact the brochure did not state there was a listening service in PDL.
For proof see FP rog. She states very clearly that the brochure definitely did not advertise any listening service in PDL.
-
In fact the brochure did not state there was a listening service in PDL.
For proof see FP rog. She states very clearly that the brochure definitely did not advertise any listening service in PDL.
They initially assumed there was one and booked on that basis. When the brochure came in the post Fiona read it and saw there was none in PdL. Hence the e-mails about having the apartments together. Her reason is 'so they could have a drink on the balcony together'.
all those MARK WARNER holidays had, were very much the same, erm, different resorts but the same sort of layout, the same hypothesis of, you know, having kid time and adult time'....'They all offered a babysitting service....we assumed that the Portuguese one operated the same way and in the brochure it sold itself the same way as all the others. And it was only after booking that I specifically went through and said 'Well it doesn't actually mention the baby listening service on this one' and I rang up to check, because that was a big part, you know, we, we wanted to be able to have the social aspect of, of a holiday going away in a group .......actually a bit annoyed when they said 'Well actually this doesn't operate a baby listening service', because I don't think we would have booked it had we known that'..... Dave had lots of emails with them saying 'Well if you can't, if you're not doing that I feel your brochure is misleading and we would like all our apartments to be at least together if you can't', you know, 'if you're not offering that can you at least guarantee that'.
Tapas booking. Did they go there Sunday or was it full? No mention of a tall man, Rachael booked for the week;
Erm, so I think it was the second night we tried to book in there but we couldn't because it was fully booked, then we realised, you know, you had, a lady who was taking the bookings said 'Oh, you know, you've really got to book first thing in the morning, it gets really busy'. Erm, so the following morning, I don't, I don't know who it was, I think it was Rachael who sort of got in early and booked us in for that night. I don't know whether it was that day or the following day she'd asked if, if there was any chance of just booking us in for the whole week, because it was so close and so much more convenient that it would have been ideal for us, and I think she was a bit reluctant, but, you know, said she'd do that.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
-
The point of this thread was to discover who booked the Tapas restaurant, but in the process another interesting fact emerged; that the group decided to operate their own listening service before they left the UK, as David Payne said in his rog. interview. He also says there was a lot of correspondence asking for them to be housed together, and some asking about dinner arrangements.
Kate says it was the nearness of the restaurant which decided them. If true, they knew where they were going to be housed before they left the UK, because that's when the decision to 'listen' was made.
As the restaurant was so near, we collectively decided to do our own child-checking service.
Kate McCann Madeleine
we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn't offer that service.
there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
-
NONE of the T9 had ever used a Mark Warner listening service anywhere.
-
NONE of the T9 had ever used a Mark Warner listening service anywhere.
May I ask if you, or some reliable source, has checked this systematically?
I am asking because I thought some had on a previous MW holiday. So I'd like to double-check with you rather than slogging through those enormous rogatories, plus Kate's book.
-
They might not have had children when they had been on a previous MW holiday
-
May I ask if you, or some reliable source, has checked this systematically?
I am asking because I thought some had on a previous MW holiday. So I'd like to double-check with you rather than slogging through those enormous rogatories, plus Kate's book.
QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.
-
QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.
Thank you.
-
May I ask if you, or some reliable source, has checked this systematically?
I am asking because I thought some had on a previous MW holiday. So I'd like to double-check with you rather than slogging through those enormous rogatories, plus Kate's book.
The refernces to the groups past holidays/listening services available/used require very hard work to interpret and piece all together, if I get really bored one day and find the patience I may attempt it
-
D.P. and F.P. had certainly never used a Mark Warner listening service
"we actually haven’t used that service when we’ve been"
G.M. and K.M. had certainly never used a Mark Warner listening service
"He doesn't know exactly how it works in practice, he never having used it"
-
R.O. states "she had used this service in 2006 when they stayed at a holiday resort in Greece".
However if you check the other rogs, the Sept 2006 holiday to Greece was not to a Mark Warner resort.
-
If you were to ask this group of 9 tourists
"Have you in fact got any cheese here at all ever actually used a listening service at a Mark Warner resort?"
what would the honest straightforward unconvoluted answer be?
-
If you were to ask this bunch of tourists: "Have you in fact got any cheese here at all ever actually used a listening service at a Mark Warner resort?", what would the honest straightforward unconvoluted answer be?
That would be the job of an investigative police force, which Lp was NOT it seems, just receptionists
-
I can't help wondering if it was connected to the extensive correspondence between David Payne and Mark Warner relating to the group being housed close to each other and to the dining facilities. The upshot of which was that they were able to decide before leaving the UK that they would operate their own listening service.
That suggests prior knowledge of the location of their apartments and the proximity of one of the restaurants, because some apartments are quite far away from the restaurants.
-
I can't help wondering if it was connected to the extensive correspondence between David Payne and Mark Warner relating to the group being housed close to each other and to the dining facilities. The upshot of which was that they were able to decide before leaving the UK that they would operate their own listening service.
That suggests prior knowledge of the location of their apartments and the proximity of one of the restaurants, because some apartments are quite far away from the restaurants.
Before leaving the UK is an interesting thought, but how valid is it?
The Paynes had a baby monitor that worked at the relevant distance. One lot of other parents had a baby monitor they did not trust. Two of the families do not appear to have attempted a baby monitor.
So, wind back to 2007 technology and cost. What was the operating range of baby monitors in 2007? So far, I have got claims of 75m minimum to around 200m max, all at prices cheaper than hiring a nanny for a week.
The Paynes monitor appears to have done the trick, so why didn't the other 3 families cough up for a 2007 spec monitor? Was it because they didn't know how close they would be?
This bit has intrigued me because there is/was an electrical goods shop in Rua Helena Nascimento Baptista, that might or might not in 2007 have flogged baby monitors that worked for Tapas diners. Just a tad difficult to work out what its 2007 stock was, though.
-
I can't help wondering if it was connected to the extensive correspondence between David Payne and Mark Warner relating to the group being housed close to each other and to the dining facilities. The upshot of which was that they were able to decide before leaving the UK that they would operate their own listening service.
That suggests prior knowledge of the location of their apartments and the proximity of one of the restaurants, because some apartments are quite far away from the restaurants.
Without trawling the rogatory interviews to refute your suggestion that they knew the location of their apartments ... I suggest that short of asking for adjacent accommodation they did not know either the location of the apartments or the location of the restaurants in relation to where they would be staying.
-
Without trawling the rogatory interviews to refute your suggestion that they knew the location of their apartments ... I suggest that short of asking for adjacent accommodation they did not know either the location of the apartments or the location of the restaurants in relation to where they would be staying.
The reason they asked for adjacent accommodation was so they could operate their own listening service. Without knowing the proximity of the accommodation to one of the restaurants or having been assured that it would be workable how could they decide in advance that it would be possible?
-
The McCann's excuse for leaving the children, that it was a quiet, child-friendly place, was nonsense as they wouldn't have known that before they arrived ?
-
The McCann's excuse for leaving the children, that it was a quiet, child-friendly place, was nonsense as they wouldn't have known that before they arrived ?
So are you suggesting the McCanns booked the holiday at Mark Warner resort in PdL (out of season) without reading any of the literature about it and without knowing if it was a quiet, child-friendly resort? ANd on the off-chance they did book the holiday completely blind and randomly chose PdL, then this is relevant to the disappearance because...?
-
So are you suggesting the McCanns booked the holiday at Mark Warner resort in PdL (out of season) without reading any of the literature about it and without knowing if it was a quiet, child-friendly resort? ANd on the off-chance they did book the holiday completely blind and randomly chose PdL, then this is relevant to the disappearance because...?
Not to the disappearance per se but certainly to the subject of neglect. It would seem no matter what the couples had found in PDL to be like it had already been decided before the left England that the children would be left in the apartments alone while the parents dined nearby.
-
So it's your view that this supposed plan was set in stone in England prior to the holiday and that nothing, not even discovering that the resort was dangerous and non-child friendly would have dissuaded them?
I have no idea what the couples would have done if they found the resort not as they had expected but as they proceeded to leave the children alone from the second night of the holiday they really didn't give themselves enough time to find out, did they ?
-
I have no idea what the couples would have done if they found the resort not as they had expected but as they proceeded to leave the children alone from the second night of the holiday they really didn't give themselves enough time to find out, did they ?
They found the resort to be quiet and child friendly as described, I don't suppose it would have needed a week to come to that conclusion.
-
So are you suggesting the McCanns booked the holiday at Mark Warner resort in PdL (out of season) without reading any of the literature about it and without knowing if it was a quiet, child-friendly resort? ANd on the off-chance they did book the holiday completely blind and randomly chose PdL, then this is relevant to the disappearance because...?
David Payne researched, found MW at PdL and booked it. All assumed there was a listening service as in other MW resorts. It was only when Fiona read the brochure more closely after the booking had been made that she realised it didn't.
-
David Payne researched, found MW at PdL and booked it. All assumed there was a listening service as in other MW resorts. It was only when Fiona read the brochure more closely after the booking had been made that she realised it didn't.
So they implemented their own monitoring system.
Apart from the Paynes, who took a baby-listening device.
And?
-
So they implemented their own monitoring system.
Apart from the Paynes, who took a baby-listening device.
And?
It was clearly inadequate
-
So they implemented their own monitoring system.
Apart from the Paynes, who took a baby-listening device.
And?
Monitoring system ? 8)-)))
-
It was clearly inadequate
Every time an aeroplane crashes, you could say the checks were inadequate.
Or is it more sensible to say that even sensible precautions won't, always, prevent tragedy?
All ways up were are moving away from the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfulandcovereditup ...
-
Every time an aeroplane crashes, you could say the checks were inadequate.
Or is it more sensible to say that even sensible precautions won't, always, prevent tragedy?
All ways up were are moving away from the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfulandcovereditup ...
Why would anyone with common sense and intelligence leave children by themselves and unprotected....
-
Why would anyone with common sense and intelligence leave children by themselves and unprotected....
It is the modern way with intelligent, educated, middle class professionals.....................allegedly.
-
Every time an aeroplane crashes, you could say the checks were inadequate.
Or is it more sensible to say that even sensible precautions won't, always, prevent tragedy?
All ways up were are moving away from the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfulandcovereditup ...
Because it seemed safe at the time
Looking back it was a terrible mistake
Why do you think they left them
-
It is the modern way with intelligent, educated, middle class professionals.....................allegedly.
Allegedly sums it up.
In reality, worse than useless.
IMHO naturally.
-
Because it seemed safe at the time
Looking back it was a terrible mistake
Why do you think they left them
Because their 'me' time with their friends was more important.
-
Because their 'me' time with their friends was more important.
More important than what
Do you think they consciously realised what they were doing was dangerous
-
More important than what
Do you think they consciously realised what they were doing was dangerous
I find it inconceivable that anyone could have considered it an acceptable way of looking after children.
-
I find it inconceivable that anyone could have considered it an acceptable way of looking after children.
So you are saying they realised it was dangerous and didn't care
-
I am saying they considered their own needs to be paramount.
No one made them leave their children - they chose to do so, for whatever reason.
-
So they implemented their own monitoring system.
Apart from the Paynes, who took a baby-listening device.
And?
David Payne exchanged much correspondence with Mark Warner one of the points of which was to ensure they would be housed close to each other so they could operate their own listening service. Mark Warner and possibly Ocean Club employees probably knew in February 2007 that the group's children were going to be left alone in the evenings.
-
So you are saying they realised it was dangerous and didn't care
On the one hand you have people who wouldn't dream of using a listening service at all. They take their children out with them or they all stay in.
On the other hand you have people who are willing to take the risk and use these services, but not every evening.
Then you have a group of people who wanted the listening service every evening and created their own because there wasn't one.
Then you have one couple who thought it was fine to leave the door leading to a dangerous balcony unlocked.
A very wide range of attitudes towards childcare.
For the record, Mark Warner doesn't offer this service anywhere any more.
-
I am saying they considered their own needs to be paramount.
No one made them leave their children - they chose to do so, for whatever reason.
That is the crutch of the issue as you might say.
Voluntary action, not forced upon them by unforeseen circumstances, but totally voluntary.
-
Because it seemed safe at the time
Looking back it was a terrible mistake
Why do you think they left them
Your first line answers the question.
-
Your first line answers the question.
But they had decided to do their own listening service before they even left England and although they were already aware that MW didn't offer it's own listening service because of the nature of the resort.
-
But they had decided to do their own listening service before they even left England and although they were already aware that MW didn't offer it's own listening service because of the nature of the resort.
How was their own listening service going to work, then, when the group didn't even know which apartments they would be allocated? If they'd all been put in Waterside Village it wouldn't have worked and paying for half board would have been a total waste of money.
-
How was their own listening service going to work, then, when the group didn't even know which apartments they would be allocated? If they'd all been put in Waterside Village it wouldn't have worked and paying for half board would have been a total waste of money.
I suppose that's why they made certain requests while booking.
-
I suppose that's why they made certain requests while booking.
The real question is why anyone would want to run a baby listening service
Most normal people want to be sure their kids are ok in their absence, not just leave it to chance, its abnormal IMO , it is also abnormal to have a leisurely dinner whilst ones babies and toddlers are alone in an open apartment
But we musnt go on about it as the oFM webmaster thnks we are as irritating as piles and that they dont care what anyone thinks of their chldcare lol
-
I suppose that's why they made certain requests while booking.
What did those requests guarantee which made them sure they could plan their own form of listening service?
-
How was their own listening service going to work, then, when the group didn't even know which apartments they would be allocated? If they'd all been put in Waterside Village it wouldn't have worked and paying for half board would have been a total waste of money.
Perhaps they weren't told exactly which apartments but were assured of proximity to a restaurant? David Payne'c correspondence included a discussion about meals.
-
I find it inconceivable that anyone could have considered it an acceptable way of looking after children.
Well many people obviously have considered it acceptable and some still do - i.e. all those parents who use the Listening Service and all those parents who take baby alarms with them - when they leave their children asleep and unattended and go for their evening meal.
-
Well many people obviously have considered it acceptable and some still do - i.e. all those parents who use the Listening Service and all those parents who take baby alarms with them - when they leave their children asleep and unattended and go for their evening meal.
Pray tell what is acceptable about people leaving children unprotected and by themselves, whilst out consuming alcohol and the odd snack at a Tapas ?
I'm all ears for that excuse.
-
Pray tell what is acceptable about people leaving children unprotected and by themselves, whilst out consuming alcohol and the odd snack at a Tapas ?
I'm all ears for that excuse.
acceptable to whom....or are you speaking for everyone now
-
Pray tell what is acceptable about people leaving children unprotected and by themselves, whilst out consuming alcohol and the odd snack at a Tapas ?
I'm all ears for that excuse.
Why are you being so sarcastic? - it is not an 'excuse' it's a fact that many people have and some still do use the Listening method of childcare and leave their children asleep and unattended in their rooms and go to dinner.
-
Pray tell what is acceptable about people leaving children unprotected and by themselves, whilst out consuming alcohol and the odd snack at a Tapas ?
I'm all ears for that excuse.
acceptable to whom...I'm all ears...or haven't you thought through what your post actually means
-
Why are you being so sarcastic? - it is not an 'excuse' it's a fact that many people have and some still do use the Listening method of childcare and leave their children asleep and unattended in their rooms and go to dinner.
How were they listening, if they didn't see the children ?
and can you cite how many of these people doing the same leave children in unlocked accomodation ?
-
How were they listening, if they didn't see the children ?
and can you cite how many of these people doing the same leave children in unlocked accomodation ?
I'm sure you understand how the Listening Service works by now Stephen.
Can you cite how many people have never gone out leaving their doors/windows unlocked either by accident or design when on holiday. Of course you can't - so no point in either of us asking questions which are clearly unanswerable.
-
I'm sure you understand how the Listening Service works by now Stephen.
Can you cite how many people have never gone out leaving their doors/windows unlocked either by accident or design when on holiday. Of course you can't - so no point in either of us asking questions which are clearly unanswerable.
I asked you the question, now provide the cite.
-
This thread was authorised and managed to expose new information. It turns out that Mark Warner and possibly Ocean Club staff were aware of the proposed childcare arrangements of the group. They even took action to make it possible.
This is significant because it demonstrates that the decision to operate the listening service was taken before the group arrived in the resort. It demonstrates that Mark Warner didn't discourage the plan but facilitated it. It demonstrates that Ocean Club staff may have had prior knowledge of the arrangements before the families even arrived.
I think the information is interesting for various reasons. Some are interested in the fact that the decision to leave the children was planned earlier than it seemed to have been. I find the degree of involvement by Mark Warner interesting. Those who are interested in pre-planned abduction theories now have reason to think planning could have begun earlier.
Recently the thread and posters on it have been ridiculed and attacked. Those doing it have been admonished but are still continuing to disrupt the thread. I wonder why?
-
I'm sure you understand how the Listening Service works by now Stephen.
Can you cite how many people have never gone out leaving their doors/windows unlocked either by accident or design when on holiday. Of course you can't - so no point in either of us asking questions which are clearly unanswerable.
Listening services in hotels and other resorts would not involve staff sitting in a restaurant eating and drinking with occasional visits to the location of the children as far as I know.
-
Listening services in hotels and other resorts would not involve staff sitting in a restaurant eating and drinking with occasional visits to the location of the children as far as I know.
We would need to know the details of instructions given to the staff regarding the service before coming to firm conclusions IMO.
For instance if several staff are employed on a rota each evening - then it could be that staff have time on their hands before it is their turn to do the checks. They could use that time to eat. We simply don't know enough about how the service operates to make judgements IMO, but I would imagine different hotels/holiday complexes etc would have different arrangements for their staff depending on the no. of people who required the service.
IMO a small hotel offering the service would have a different arrangement/plan to a large holiday complex.
However the principle is the same. i.e. parents arrange to leave their children asleep and go to dinner - knowing they will be regularly checked.
-
We would need to know the details of instructions given to the staff regarding the service before coming to firm conclusions IMO.
For instance if several staff are employed on a rota each evening - then it could be that staff have time on their hands before it is their turn to do the checks. They could use that time to eat. We simply don't know enough about how the service operates to make judgements IMO, but I would imagine different hotels/holiday complexes etc would have different arrangements for their staff depending on the no. of people who required the service.
IMO a small hotel offering the service would have a different arrangement/plan to a large holiday complex.
However the principle is the same. i.e. parents arrange to leave their children asleep and go to dinner - knowing they will be regularly checked.
Why did MW not run such a service Benice ?
-
Why did MW not run such a service Benice ?
There is a big difference between MW trying to run such a service over the extensive OC complex and the Tapas 9 doing a short shuttle to block 5 only.
-
Why did MW not run such a service Benice ?
I don't know for certain Faith -but IMO it would be because the site was so spread out it would take too many staff to be able to do the job properly. So the cost involved may have been the reason.
I'm glad to see that MW have removed the service. IIRC one reason given was that they did not want to encourage a false sense of security amongst parents. It has always been my contention that THAt was the primary reason why people thought it was safe, i.e. the tour operator would not offer a service that was in any way potentially dangerous.
I hope all other hoteliers/tour operators follow their lead.
-
I don't know for certain Faith -but IMO it would be because the site was so spread out it would take too many staff to be able to do the job properly. So the cost involved may have been the reason.
I'm glad to see that MW have removed the service. IIRC one reason given was that they did not want to encourage a false sense of security amongst parents. It has always been my contention that THAt was the primary reason why people thought it was safe, i.e. the tour operator would not offer a service that was in any way potentially dangerous.
I hope all other hoteliers/tour operators follow their lead.
But MW didn't offer that service in PDL and therefore no false sense of security was encouraged.
-
There is a big difference between MW trying to run such a service over the extensive OC complex and the Tapas 9 doing a short shuttle to block 5 only.
Another point is the mixed blocks. Mark Warner had access only to certain apartments in each block. Others were permanent homes or holiday homes with private owners, sometimes sub-let or let to friends or family. As with 5J there seemed to be apartments occupied by who knows who.
-
But MW didn't offer that service in PDL and therefore no false sense of security was encouraged.
But they did know all about the service - and so their opinion as to whether it was safe would be the same as other people who knew about it and who had used it. Psychologically speaking - knowing that the service was being offered by reputable tour operators would inevitably encourage a false sense of security IMO. MW have apparently now recognised that to be a fact - hence their decision to withdraw the service.
IMO the fact that the service has been on offer for decades to people on holiday - with no history of any tragedies associated with it - would also have contributed to parents believing that it was a safe option.
(Amended for clarification)
-
But they did know about the service - and so their opinion would be the same as other people who knew about it and used it. Psychologically speaking - knowing that the service was being offered by reputable tour operators would inevitably encourage a false sense of security IMO. MW have apparently now recognised that to be a fact - hence their decision to withdraw the service.
IMO the fact that the service has been on offer for decades to people on holiday - with no history of any tragedies associated with it - would also have contributed to parents believing that it was a safe option.
Incorrect.
The mccanns were offered a variety of services by MW.
They did not utilize them, including a babysitter.
-
But they did know about the service - and so their opinion would be the same as other people who knew about it and used it. Psychologically speaking - knowing that the service was being offered by reputable tour operators would inevitably encourage a false sense of security IMO. MW have apparently now recognised that to be a fact - hence their decision to withdraw the service.
IMO the fact that the service has been on offer for decades to people on holiday - with no history of any tragedies associated with it - would also have contributed to parents believing that it was a safe option.
The couples knew that no child listening service was available in PDL. That it was being offered in other, closed, MW resorts is really nothing to do with it.
-
The couples knew that no child listening service was available in PDL. That it was being offered in other, closed, MW resorts is really nothing to do with it.
The fact that no listening service was available in PDL would not lead anyone to suspect that it was for 'sinister' reasons. The fact that they knew the service was offered by MW - no matter where it was - would make them believe that it was a bona fide method of childcare - simply because it was being offered by a reputable tour operator.
Add that to the fact that no tragedies had ever been reported as a result of that service - even after years and years of it being in operation and IMO it's not difficult to understand why people did think it was safe.
If you can't see that Faith - I can't help you - and we shall have to agree to differ.
-
The fact that no listening service was available in PDL would not lead anyone to suspect that it was for 'sinister' reasons. The fact that they knew the service was offered by MW - no matter where it was - would make them believe that it was a bona fide method of childcare - simply because it was being offered by a reputable tour operator.
Add that to the fact that no tragedies had ever been reported as a result of that service - even after years and years of it being in operation and IMO it's not difficult to understand why people did think it was safe.
If you can't see that Faith - I can't help you - and we shall have to agree to differ.
As I have said many times i did it and at the time thought it perfectly safe...in retrospect although the risk was incredibly small the consequences could have been awful and I ceratainly would not do it again...i'm sure the mccans feel the same...I'll ask them when we speak later
-
The fact that no listening service was available in PDL would not lead anyone to suspect that it was for 'sinister' reasons. The fact that they knew the service was offered by MW - no matter where it was - would make them believe that it was a bona fide method of childcare - simply because it was being offered by a reputable tour operator.
Add that to the fact that no tragedies had ever been reported as a result of that service - even after years and years of it being in operation and IMO it's not difficult to understand why people did think it was safe.
If you can't see that Faith - I can't help you - and we shall have to agree to differ.
i think that any responsible parent pause for thought on learning that the listening service was not available in PDL but was in other MW resorts but that aside what are your views with regard to leaving an apartment unsecured with sleeping children inside ?
-
The fact that no listening service was available in PDL would not lead anyone to suspect that it was for 'sinister' reasons. The fact that they knew the service was offered by MW - no matter where it was - would make them believe that it was a bona fide method of childcare - simply because it was being offered by a reputable tour operator.
Add that to the fact that no tragedies had ever been reported as a result of that service - even after years and years of it being in operation and IMO it's not difficult to understand why people did think it was safe.
If you can't see that Faith - I can't help you - and we shall have to agree to differ.
Matthew had been to Mark Warner in Lemnos;
the other ones... tend to be sort of a compound....sort of self-enclosed.....there's a warden sort of at the gate house....and they do a baby listening service....a number of the Nannies who are on rota who will sit at the bottom of the.....Lemnos was sort of like lots of little cottages, not cottages, little sort of flats, apartments going up on two hillsides, and so they would walk round, erm, you know, round and went past all the, erm, apartments and have a listen at the door to see whether anybody was crying or upset and at the start of the evening, as you went past, you'd give them your room number and where you were going to be and then if they heard anybody crying you'd then be taken back up the, erm, you know, they'd find you in the restaurant and you'd go up to the door and see what was going on
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
So the resort was enclosed. The nannies seemed to have a location where they sat. They would leave this periodically and walk round listening. Even when not listening per se they were visible and anyone heading up those hills was visible to them too.
Neither the resort nor the listening are comparable imo.
-
i think that any responsible parent pause for thought on learning that the listening service was not available in PDL but was in other MW resorts but that aside what are your views with regard to leaving an apartment unsecured with sleeping children inside ?
Look forward to them
-
Matthew had been to Mark Warner in Lemnos; .... (snip)
"we'd been to the Greek one in Lemnos ... before X was born" (source: MO rog).
-
And anyone who thinks that the Sept 2006 Lemnos holiday was to the MW resort is mistaken.
In fact the Sept 2006 Lemnos joint holiday was to a NON-MW resort therefore it was impossible for anyone to have used an MW listening service on that holiday.
-
And anyone who thinks that the Sept 2006 Lemnos holiday was to the MW resort is mistaken.
In fact the Sept 2006 Lemnos joint holiday was to a NON-MW resort therefore it was impossible for anyone to have used an MW listening service on that holiday.
That seems to be where they got the idea from, although their situation was very different.
-
i think that any responsible parent pause for thought on learning that the listening service was not available in PDL but was in other MW resorts but that aside what are your views with regard to leaving an apartment unsecured with sleeping children inside ?
My opinion is the same as it has always been i.e. that they were too trusting and made a human error. I have no difficulty at all in understanding why they did that.
However, knowing as we do of the horrific cruelty/neglect/torture inflicted on children by truly evil people - then if I live to be a hundred I will never understand how a human error made by loving parents has been elevated to the 'crime of the century' by some - and for which they apparently deserve to be persecuted for the rest of their lives. I just don't get it.
I am far more critical of those parents who - even though they know what happened to Madeleine - still use baby alarms and the listening service and leave their children asleep while they go to dinner when they are on holiday.
IMO
-
My opinion is the same as it has always been i.e. that they were too trusting and made a human error. I have no difficulty at all in understanding why they did that.
However, knowing as we do of the horrific cruelty/neglect/torture inflicted on children by truly evil people - then if I live to be a hundred I will never understand how a human error made by loving parents has been elevated to the 'crime of the century' by some - and for which they apparently deserve to be persecuted for the rest of their lives. I just don't get it.
I am far more critical of those parents who - even though they know what happened to Madeleine - still use baby alarms and the listening service and leave their children asleep while they go to dinner when they are on holiday.
IMO
I agree, Benice.
One only has to read about the horror of Liam Fee's two years of life and that of the two boys he shared a home with to form an opinion of what really constitutes neglect.
The regime of constantly checking the children while they ate at a table two minutes away had actually worked perfectly well as far as normal hazards were concerned.
The sick child was attended to ... and no conceivable harm came to any of the other children left on their own behind what we now know to be insecure shutters in what we now know to be a hot spot of burglars gaining entry via windows.
No-one had given a thought to a predator doing the rounds in the Algarve particularly as well as there being denial about the burglaries there was denial, or no general knowledge of the predator preying on British children.
Why would abduction have entered anyone's head until after Madeleine was taken? Why would anyone wish to persecute her parents for the mistake they will live with for the rest of their lives?
-
Just remind me Brietta, who made the choice to leave their children by themselves and unguarded ?
#You use the word unguarded...which allowed an abduction
-
#You use the word unguarded...which allowed an abduction
Yes now you are catching on...missing is more accurate than 'abduction' as there is no evidence of 'abduction'
The plain fact that many people cannot understand is why they couldn't take the children with them for a meal or why not dine at tea time 5/6 o'clock and let the children fall asleep in their buggies etc. Selfish/uncaring parents comes to mind.
-
Doesnt matter anymore,waste of time discussng it but them leaving their toddlers in an unsecure flat cant be whitewashed
There are many children sleeping in unsecured/unsafe premises every night, Mercury. Very few go missing.
-
There are many children sleeping in unsecured/unsafe premises every night, Mercury. Very few go missing.
What all alone too? Making two situations possible, walking out and being taken
-
What all alone too? Making two situations possible, walking out and being taken
Yes - but we've been over this all so many times.
-
Yes - but we've been over this all so many times.
Have we?
Is it the even if youre at home your child can be taken? Even if true doesnt give license to people to leave toddlers alone, not forgetting other risks
-
Apparently the 'listening service' or lack thereof caused consternation during the booking process;
For the rest, he relates that the couples would give preference to resorts that have 'baby listening' services available.
Furthermore, he wishes to make clear that while making the aforementioned reservations the operator had told them that a 'baby listening' service was not in place in the Ocean Club Garden.
That fact had made some of the couples - and himself in particular - reluctant to come to Portugal because all the families have minor children.
As far as he [MO] is concerned, he wishes at this time to add that, in conversation with DP on a date he does not recall with certainty but likely to have been on 7 or 8 May, he [DP] confided in him that that, at that time, KH had been particularly reluctant about coming to Portugal because she had had a bad feeling [presentiment] about the children of the group and the non-existence of the 'baby sitting' service.
Nevertheless, he relates that, they had discussed this problem resolving to make the trip since the operator had assured them accommodation sufficiently close together that, collectively, they had managed to assure the checking and supervision of their respective progeny.
Consequently, David had taken charge of negotiations with the operator to have all lodgings as close to each other as possible. Nonetheless, and because he was asked, he adds that on leaving England they did not know the exact apartments which they had been allotted.
Nevertheless, he relates that DP had asked the operator that they be provided with lodgings in close proximity to each other because, as a group, they intended to perform that kind of checking collectively over the children of each family.
Nonetheless he admits that they were only informed of their respective apartments on arrival in Portugal.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
-
For information, this is a new thread.
-
There are many children sleeping in unsecured/unsafe premises every night, Mercury. Very few go missing.
Well thats good to know. I feel so relieved that when parents go on holiday and leave their kids alone only a few will go missing, So what is all this fuss about Maddie if she is just one of the few? collateral damage in the 'family fun holiday'?
QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.
A village, OMG what a bummer not a compound- a village! So they knew WHY MW didn't provide baby listening, ( It wasn't safe) but that didn't stop them from re thinking using a baby sitting service or dine /wine at their appartments.
They had a difficult choice, drag those pesky kids with them to dinner or listen themselves...there was no written schedule of this ofcourse, it was not organised at all just a i'll go check...ListeN- hear nothing -go back.
Seriously!
-
Well thats good to know. I feel so relieved that when parents go on holiday and leave their kids alone only a few will go missing, So what is all this fuss about Maddie if she is just one of the few? collateral damage in the 'family fun holiday'?
QUOTE from Rachael Oldfield's statement.
Reply 'Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn't do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together'.
A village, OMG what a bummer not a compound- a village! So they knew WHY MW didn't provide baby listening, ( It wasn't safe) but that didn't stop them from re thinking using a baby sitting service or dine /wine at their appartments.
They had a difficult choice, drag those pesky kids with them to dinner or listen themselves...there was no written schedule of this ofcourse, it was not organised at all just a i'll go check...ListeN- hear nothing -go back.
Seriously!
What if they hadn't been able to get a table in the tapas every night ? What if the manager had stuck to the usual booking rule ? Would they have gone further afield ?
-
It seems to me that they were placed in a block in Waterside Gardens which made it possible to operate a listening service. There were other locations where it would have proved impossible; Waterside village for example.
So they not only had to be together, they had to be together within easy reach of one of the two restaurants to be sure they could 'listen' for the children. So their request had to be a little more specific than their statements suggest.
-
What if they hadn't been able to get a table in the tapas every night ? What if the manager had stuck to the usual booking rule ? Would they have gone further afield ?
The 2 and 3 yr olds, well, it was good for them to learn independence and if Maddie had fallen into the swimming people, well, she was a good swimmer...both comments made by a member on here, beggars belief really how far the apologists go
-
The 2 and 3 yr olds, well, it was good for them to learn independence and if Maddie had fallen into the swimming people, well, she was a good swimmer...both comments made by a member on here, beggars belief really how far the apologists go
Indeed it is strange how people will make up versions to try and fit the abduction story and the more they try the more easy it is to pick apart.protect the parents at all costs, strange group of supporters who just will not move their stance ALL hating Amaral, the PJ and anyone who dares to ask awkward questions that cannot be answered in a logical manner.....the force is with you. McCanns have made no secret that they have 'people' who read everything on the internet. ooh err I say.