Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 03:38:13 PM
Title: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 03:38:13 PM
On 7th Aug Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if WHF was licenced to grow the opium poppy which the Dr observed in a field. Chief Sup said he wasn't. As a result the pair went and looked at a small area in a field where the poppies were growing.
Was WHF licenced? From my very limited research it seems the UK gov issued the first licences in 2006.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum
Medical cultivation in the UK
"In late 2006, the British government permitted the pharmaceutical company Macfarlan Smith (a Johnson Matthey company, FTSE 100) to cultivate opium poppies in England for medicinal reasons[39] after Macfarlan Smith's primary source, India, decided to increase the price of export opium latex. This move is well received by British farmers,[citation needed] with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012, they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire and Lincolnshire as a spring-sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy.[40] The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration.[39] The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.[41]"
Although the above seems to contradict with the following:
It seems the first crop authorised by UK Gov/Home Office was 2002.
I think they might be saying slightly different things. Anyway whether the date was 2002 or 2006 both are years away from 1985.
I want to know:
1. Were they definitely opium poppies? 2. If so why were they being grown and for what purpose? 3. Who else knew about this, assuming they were opium poppies? 4. Was it legal? 5. The location and area of the field doesn't seem hidden? See Chief Sup Harris' WS above for description of field. 6. Would others such as family members and farm workers be aware they were opium poppies? I would probably just think they were a pretty flower and wonder why the farm was growing flowers instead of crops. Perhaps thinking they were flowers for market. See images in DM article:
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 14, 2016, 04:24:50 PM
1) There is no way WHF was licensed to grow opium poppies.
2) processing poppies into opium is an expensive process
3) The small field in question wound not be able to produce enough poppies to make it worthwhile they must be grown in large quantities for someone to actually want to buy from you and get a price that is decent.
4) They could have been weed poppies that were mistaken for opium poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 04:51:50 PM
1) There is no way WHF was licensed to grow opium poppies.
2) processing poppies into opium is an expensive process
3) The small field in question wound not be able to produce enough poppies to make it worthwhile they must be frown in large quantity for someone to actually want to buy from you and get a price that is decent.
4) They could have been weed poppies that were mistaken for opium poppies.
I think Dr Craig a police surgeon with 30 years experience in 1985 would recognise opium poppies since he would be familiar with morphine.
We don't how many poppies were growing only that Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at a small area in a field. This could mean they simply looked at a small area in a field although the poppies were spread over a much wider area of the field. Or it could mean the poppies were confined to a small area of a field.
It appears harvesting and processing is not as complex as originally thought:
"Crude laboratories in the field are capable of refining opium into morphine base by a simple acid-base extraction. A sticky, brown paste, morphine base is pressed into bricks and sun-dried, and can either be smoked, prepared into other forms or processed into heroin."
1) There is no way WHF was licensed to grow opium poppies.
2) processing poppies into opium is an expensive process
3) The small field in question wound not be able to produce enough poppies to make it worthwhile they must be frown in large quantity for someone to actually want to buy from you and get a price that is decent.
4) They could have been weed poppies that were mistaken for opium poppies.
It COULD have been a trial field? No one would go to the expense of ordering them grown in vast numbers which had to be processed if it turned out they weren't suitable.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 05:18:54 PM
It COULD have been a trial field? No one would go to the expense of ordering them grown in vast numbers which had to be processed if it turned out they weren't suitable.
Yes it Could be a trial field but who for?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 14, 2016, 05:38:59 PM
In my early teens, when I had acute diarrhea my GP prescribed kaolin and morphine mixture. It was a bright pink colour, tasted really good and I finished the bottle, so much so that I asked my mum to get the doctor to make out another prescription even though it had cured the runs... I was hooked!
Needless to say the doctor gave me an alternative remedy without the morphine.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 14, 2016, 05:39:58 PM
I think Dr Craig a police surgeon with 30 years experience in 1985 would recognise opium poppies since he would be familiar with morphine.
We don't how many poppies were growing only that Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at a small area in a field. This could mean they simply looked at a small area in a field although the poppies were spread over a much wider area of the field. Or it could mean the poppies were confined to a small area of a field.
It appears harvesting and processing is not as complex as originally thought:
"Crude laboratories in the field are capable of refining opium into morphine base by a simple acid-base extraction. A sticky, brown paste, morphine base is pressed into bricks and sun-dried, and can either be smoked, prepared into other forms or processed into heroin."
First you have to harvest the opium gum from the pods which is a pain in the butt. Then you have to process it into morphine base then into Heroin base and finally prep it for use.
Transforming morphine bricks to heroin base requires a controlled substance- acetic anhydride,. It in controlled precisely because it is used in heroin production. How pure it will be depends on how you cook it and what else you use. Farmers don't bother going through the time and expense they just sell Opium gum or morphine bricks.
There is nothing to suggest that Jeremy or anyone else was buying chemicals and experimenting with opium poppy in order to make their own heroin.
How big was the field? Cultivating 2.5 acres of poppies year round will require 3 pounds of seeds. You can get 3 pods a plant maximum during a single year. There will be 60-125,000 pods each cycle X 3 cycles=275,000 pods max. This will yield as much as 28 2/3 pounds of opium if you do everything right by taking care of the crop and losing nothing while harvesting the opium gum. This can be processed into a 3lb brick of Morphine which in turn can be processed into maybe 2 pounds of Heroin.
Obviously a field cultivated only for months would not produce as much. If you do only 1 growing cycle instead of 3 you get 1/3 as much. Who the hell wants to hand harvest 60,000-125,000 pods? You think Jeremy was going to do it himself? There is a limited time to harvest it all so you need a number of people doing it.
Aside from it being too labor intensive for Jeremy to bother with, planting it along a main road instead of an interior hidden field would be extraordinarily stupid.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 06:25:13 PM
First you have to harvest the opium gum from the pods which is a pain in the butt. Then you have to process it into morphine base then into Heroin base and finally prep it for use.
Transforming morphine bricks to heroin base requires a controlled substance- acetic anhydride,. It in controlled precisely because it is used in heroin production. How pure it will be depends on how you cook it and what else you use. Farmers don't bother going through the time and expense they just sell Opium gum or morphine bricks.
There is nothing to suggest that Jeremy or anyone else was buying chemicals and experimenting with opium poppy in order to make their own heroin.
How big was the field? Cultivating 2.5 acres of poppies year round will require 3 pounds of seeds. You can get 3 pods a plant maximum during a single year. There will be 60-125,000 pods each cycle X 3 cycles=275,000 pods max. This will yield as much as 28 2/3 pounds of opium if you do everything right by taking care of the crop and losing nothing while harvesting the opium gum. This can be processed into a 3lb brick of Morphine which in turn can be processed into maybe 2 pounds of Heroin.
Obviously a field cultivated only for months would not produce as much. If you do only 1 growing cycle instead of 3 you get 1/3 as much. Who the hell wants to hand harvest 60,000-125,000 pods? You think Jeremy was going to do it himself? There is a limited time to harvest it all so you need a number of people doing it.
Aside from it being too labor intensive for Jeremy to bother with, planting it along a main road instead of an interior hidden field would be extraordinarily stupid.
Most medical doctors will be offay with plants/medicines.
The field was on a private road within the farm. It would only be visible to those visiting the farm and venturing beyond the farmhouse.
NB crashed his plane in WW2 and sustained a serious back injury. At one time it was thought he wouldn't walk again. I don't know whether he was given morphone for any pain. If he was it is possible he may have become addicted and grew the poppies to produce morphine for own use. Or he may have been troubled by back pain or some other pain (other than JB!). Although I have to say this is simply a theory which I have no evidence for.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on June 14, 2016, 06:25:27 PM
First you have to harvest the opium gum from the pods which is a pain in the butt. Then you have to process it into morphine base then into Heroin base and finally prep it for use.
Transforming morphine bricks to heroin base requires a controlled substance- acetic anhydride,. It in controlled precisely because it is used in heroin production. How pure it will be depends on how you cook it and what else you use. Farmers don't bother going through the time and expense they just sell Opium gum or morphine bricks.
There is nothing to suggest that Jeremy or anyone else was buying chemicals and experimenting with opium poppy in order to make their own heroin.
How big was the field? Cultivating 2.5 acres of poppies year round will require 3 pounds of seeds. You can get 3 pods a plant maximum during a single year. There will be 60-125,000 pods each cycle X 3 cycles=275,000 pods max. This will yield as much as 28 2/3 pounds of opium if you do everything right by taking care of the crop and losing nothing while harvesting the opium gum. This can be processed into a 3lb brick of Morphine which in turn can be processed into maybe 2 pounds of Heroin.
Obviously a field cultivated only for months would not produce as much. If you do only 1 growing cycle instead of 3 you get 1/3 as much. Who the hell wants to hand harvest 60,000-125,000 pods? You think Jeremy was going to do it himself? There is a limited time to harvest it all so you need a number of people doing it.
Aside from it being too labor intensive for Jeremy to bother with, planting it along a main road instead of an interior hidden field would be extraordinarily stupid.
I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting that any part of it was Jeremy's "baby". How would he have been granted a license? Nevill, however, MAY have been, but aren't you taking all this a stage too far? Might there not have been the possibility that Nevill, because he would have been considered a safe bet, was ONLY part of a trial phase?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting that any part of it was Jeremy's "baby". How would he have been granted a license? Nevill, however, MAY have been, but aren't you taking all this a stage too far? Might there not have been the possibility that Nevill, because he would have been considered a safe bet, was ONLY part of a trial phase?
The first licences don't seem to have been issued until 2002 which is some 17 years after Dr Craig spotted what he thought were opium poppies in a field. &%+((£
CAL Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on June 14, 2016, 07:00:13 PM
The first licences don't seem to have been issued until 2002 which is some 17 years after Dr Craig spotted what he thought were opium poppies in a field. &%+((£
CAL Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Are we to assume, from that, that it was a well known secret within the confines of the farm?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 14, 2016, 07:18:47 PM
I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting that any part of it was Jeremy's "baby". How would he have been granted a license? Nevill, however, MAY have been, but aren't you taking all this a stage too far? Might there not have been the possibility that Nevill, because he would have been considered a safe bet, was ONLY part of a trial phase?
In a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane 1.4 mile beyond the farmhouse there was what Craig thought to be opium plants. Surely that means far less than an acre. It makes zero sense to grow so little. What would be tested by growing a few plants?
In the meantime who would they sell to? A program was created in 2002 to sell to pharmaceutical companies so obviously no program existed prior for such. A license to grow a small amount for schools? hey could buy a small amount from anywhere they would not need to pay local growers.
I doubt it was heroin poppy and even if it were it would not mean a thing so why are we even discussing it?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 07:22:39 PM
The first licences don't seem to have been issued until 2002 which is some 17 years after Dr Craig spotted what he thought were opium poppies in a field. &%+((£
CAL Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
So after police raided the house and found everyone dead he went to pick some opium poppies? To do what with them? Maybe he told Craig they were Opium poppies to be an ass. Maybe he intended to pick them to stick near the bodies then thought the better of it. It makes little sense to pick Opium poppies with police right there and what would he pick them for anyway? What would he do with them at that moment? Maybe someone should write to him and ask him.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 07:33:33 PM
So after police raided the house and found everyone dead he went to pick some opium poppies? To do what with them? Maybe he told Craig they were Opium poppies to be an ass. Maybe he intended to pick them to stick near the bodies then thought the better of it. It makes little sense to pick Opium poppies with police right there and what would he pick them for anyway? What would he do with them at that moment? Maybe someone should write to him and ask him.
"Dr Craig felt Jeremy was 'grief stricken' and suffering 'emotional shock'".
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 14, 2016, 07:37:08 PM
If it's true it could be a reason NB was reluctant to call/involve the police at WHF.
He was growing a small amount of opium poppies illegally and feared if police were called to WHF to deal with a cray lady with a gun they would instead go look in all the fields?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on June 14, 2016, 07:50:38 PM
He was growing a small amount of opium poppies illegally and feared if police were called to WHF to deal with a cray lady with a gun they would instead go look in all the fields?
We don't know if it was a small amount. It's not clear from Chief Sup Harris' WS the extent of the poppies or if there were other hidden fields.
Title: !
Post by: APRIL on June 14, 2016, 07:57:16 PM
In a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane 1.4 mile beyond the farmhouse there was what Craig thought to be opium plants. Surely that means far less than an acre. It makes zero sense to grow so little. What would be tested by growing a few plants?
In the meantime who would they sell to? A program was created in 2002 to sell to pharmaceutical companies so obviously no program existed prior for such. A license to grow a small amount for schools? hey could buy a small amount from anywhere they would not need to pay local growers.
I doubt it was heroin poppy and even if it were it would not mean a thing so why are we even discussing it?
Scipio, DEAR!!!! I/WE aren't saying that anything IS one way or another. Just throwing ideas into the mix. I understand that in American terms growing tiny amounts wouldn't be viable but we don't have the space that you do so what we do will be on a much smaller scale.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 08:03:40 PM
Might not police have been privy to such information?
Yes if it was legal but as I said it doesn't appear the UK Gov issued licences until 2002. On this basis I doubt the police were aware unless there was something very dodgy going on.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: puglove on June 14, 2016, 08:05:41 PM
So after police raided the house and found everyone dead he went to pick some opium poppies? To do what with them? Maybe he told Craig they were Opium poppies to be an ass. Maybe he intended to pick them to stick near the bodies then thought the better of it. It makes little sense to pick Opium poppies with police right there and what would he pick them for anyway? What would he do with them at that moment? Maybe someone should write to him and ask him.
It was a weird, inappropriate diversionary tactic because Bamber is a psychopath.
%£&)**#
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 08:06:34 PM
In a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane 1.4 mile beyond the farmhouse there was what Craig thought to be opium plants. Surely that means far less than an acre. It makes zero sense to grow so little. What would be tested by growing a few plants?
In the meantime who would they sell to? A program was created in 2002 to sell to pharmaceutical companies so obviously no program existed prior for such. A license to grow a small amount for schools? hey could buy a small amount from anywhere they would not need to pay local growers.
I doubt it was heroin poppy and even if it were it would not mean a thing so why are we even discussing it?
Why would they grow a small amount for schools? If this was the case they would surely still need a licence or special permission?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 14, 2016, 08:20:18 PM
Tell you what... let's just say they were common or field poppies grown for wreaths, decorations and dropping onto the audience at the Albert Hall on Remembrance Day.
And let this thread R.I.P.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2016, 11:13:48 PM
Tell you what... let's just say they were common or field poppies grown for wreaths, decorations and dropping onto the audience at the Albert Hall on Remembrance Day.
And let this thread R.I.P.
Lol your dsoh seems to have worked!
It's either as puglove said a seriously sick comment from JB or something worthy of further investigation &%+((£
People do grieve in different ways but I think I would struggle with making a joke about opium poppies upon learning ones nearest and dearest have died.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 15, 2016, 12:31:25 AM
1) There is no way WHF was licensed to grow opium poppies.
2) processing poppies into opium is an expensive process
3) The small field in question wound not be able to produce enough poppies to make it worthwhile they must be frown in large quantity for someone to actually want to buy from you and get a price that is decent.
4) They could have been weed poppies that were mistaken for opium poppies.
They grew hemp.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 03:27:11 AM
'Opium poppies aren't uncommon, at least not where I am.
Hemp is also not uncommon, not uncommon in my lungs.
Yow dow arf mek me loff, Spammy!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
Hey Puggy, I never normally do the Bamber boards. Bit before my time. (I was 5) Don't the know the full in's and out's of the case. (But I'm pretty sure Sheila didn't shoot herself twice in the chin).
But drugs, I've got more than my fair share of experience in that field, opium field or otherwise.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 11:45:13 AM
It seems likely JB was producing cannabis at his cottage and using and supplying but I can't recall any mention of this in his police interviews? Mention is made of JM's cheque fraud and OCP burglary the latter of which he was charged with. Were charges pressed re the cannabis? If not why not?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 03:22:37 PM
It doesn't tend to grow too well in this country. Loose & airy, no real buds.
You have to use UV lights & hydroponics if you want good stuff.
UK field grown weed wouldn't even give me a slight buzz, more likely a sore throat.
Apparently rats ate/attacked the cannabis plants at WHF?
According to JM, JB bought a propagator and other bits of kit which he used inside his cottage to grow cannabis plants until they were a certain height when he transferred them to his garden?
I know very little about recreational drugs. I do recall a male friend making some hashish cake which was like flapjack. I had some but I can't recall anything significant happening. Surely cooking destroys it?
Is there any difference between cannabis, hash and marijuana?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2016, 03:55:07 PM
Apparently rats ate/attacked the cannabis plants at WHF?
According to JM, JB bought a propagator and other bits of kit which he used inside his cottage to grow cannabis plants until they were a certain height when he transferred them to his garden?
I know very little about recreational drugs. I do recall a male friend making some hashish cake which was like flapjack. I had some but I can't recall anything significant happening. Surely cooking destroys it?
Is there any difference between cannabis, hash and marijuana?
. Cannabis & Marijuana are names for the plant & it's flower/ bud.
Hashish( that's the stuff people normally put in cakes) is the solid form, often made using most of the plant, leaves/stem etc, processed & compressed into a block.
It's potency would depend upon the quality/maturity of the plant, (unless grown under UV, in this country, wouldn't fully mature & wouldn't be very potent at all).
The real deal, the bit with the most THC, the psychoactive part, which most people these days just call Weed or Skunk, is just the bud/flower of the plant when at full maturity & dried out.
Bambers UK garden weed is likely to have been like smoking cabbage, I'm not suprised the police ignored it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 04:11:45 PM
Hey Puggy, I never normally do the Bamber boards. Bit before my time. (I was 5) Don't the know the full in's and out's of the case. (But I'm pretty sure Sheila didn't shoot herself twice in the chin).
But drugs, I've got more than my fair share of experience in that field, opium field or otherwise.
You can be 100% certain she didn't shoot herself in the chin, she had no gunshot wounds to her chin- she was shot 2 times in the neck. But she didn't shoot herself in the neck while seated then after she died have an out of body experience where she removed the moderator and put it away and then lied down flat and put the gun on top of her. Clearly someone else was there.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2016, 04:17:54 PM
You can be 100% certain she didn't shoot herself in the chin, she had no gunshot wounds to her chin- she was shot 2 times in the neck. But she didn't shoot herself in the neck while seated then after she died have an out of body experience where she removed the moderator and put it away and then lied down flat and put the gun on top of her. Clearly someone else was there.
Sorry, yeah, neck.
I've read a little about the case, I understand that in JB's fantasy, Sheila would have had to overpower her stepfather during a fight in the kitchen.....
...and then shoot herself twice, remove the gun silencer then lay back down.
She sounds pretty tough, wouldn't have wanted to argue with her.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 04:20:39 PM
. Cannabis & Marijuana are names for the plant & it's flower/ bud.
Hashish( that's the stuff people normally put in cakes) is the solid form, often made using most of the plant, leaves/stem etc, processed & compressed into a block.
It's potency would depend upon the quality/maturity of the plant, (unless grown under UV, in this country, wouldn't fully mature & wouldn't be very potent at all).
The real deal, the bit with the most THC, the psychoactive part, which most people these days just call Weed or Skunk, is just the bud/flower of the plant when at full maturity & dried out.
Bambers UK garden weed is likely to have been like smoking cabbage, I'm not suprised the police ignored it.
Thanks. I ddn't really have any idea about potency although I was aware skunk is pretty potent.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2016, 04:34:29 PM
Thanks. I ddn't really have any idea about potency although I was aware skunk is pretty potent.
My pleasure.
I like a bit of horticulture.
There are lots of different strains of cannabis plant, just like any other plant species, they all have slightly different looking flowers, different tastes and smells.
White Rhino, for instance, is one variety that's very sort after, has a very high THC content.
There are other interesetingly named varietys like Cheese , Purple Haze, Strawberry Chronic or Mango, to name a few.
I love all of natures beautiful fruits ?>)()<
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 04:57:30 PM
It seems likely JB was producing cannabis at his cottage and using and supplying but I can't recall any mention of this in his police interviews? Mention is made of JM's cheque fraud and OCP burglary the latter of which he was charged with. Were charges pressed re the cannabis? If not why not?
I can't be bothered to read through JB's police interviews again but I'm pretty sure there's no mention of cannabis.
Just had a quick look at the CoA document. The following is the section re JM. I've highlighted in bold the sections re the trip to Amsterdam/drug run, OCP and cheque fraud. Why no mention of the cannabis?
Julie Mugford 94. Julie Mugford was 21 years old at the time of the offences and a student at Goldsmiths College at the University of London. She met the appellant in 1983 whilst working in Colchester during one of the vacations and they became boyfriend and girlfriend. During the relationship she met the appellant's parents, his sister and her children. In December 1984 the appellant had proposed to her.
95. On the day after the killings, Miss Mugford made a statement to the police. In that statement she said nothing adverse to the appellant. She spoke of receiving a telephone call from him at about 3.30 a.m. on the night of the killings. She said that he "sounded disjointed and worried" and he said "There's something wrong at home." She had been sleepy and had not asked what it was.
96. On 7 September, Julie Mugford contacted the police and told them that she had omitted matters from her earlier statement. She then gave a very different account that she was to repeat to the jury in evidence.
97. She said that after she met the appellant, it quickly became obvious to her that the appellant disliked his family. He resented his parents whom he claimed, "tried to run his life" and he said he did not get on with Sheila Caffell. He was angry that she lived in an expensive flat in Maida Vale, which was maintained by his parents. Between July and October 1984, he said that his parents were getting him down and he said that he wished "he could get rid of them all". In evidence Miss Mugford said this included his sister and children because "if he was going to get rid of them it would have to be all of them". The appellant explained to her that his "father was getting old, his mother was mad … Sheila was mad as well … and in respect of the way the twins had been brought up, … they were emotionally disturbed and unbalanced". The appellant also told Julie Mugford he had seen copies of his parents' wills.
98. Miss Mugford's evidence was that the conversations about killing the appellant's family became more frequent between October and December 1984. At first he spoke of being at the house for supper and then drugging the family before driving back to Goldhanger in his car. He said that he then intended returning to the farmhouse on foot or on bicycle and burning the house down. The appellant then appeared to realise that it would be difficult to burn the premises down especially since it would have the consequent effect of destroying the valuables within the property.
99. Later the appellant said he had decided to shoot his family and he told her that he had discovered that the catch on the kitchen window did not work and he could gain access to the house in that way. The appellant said he planned to leave the address by a different window, which latched when it was shut from the outside. He spoke of Sheila Caffell being a good scapegoat because of her admission to hospital during Easter 1985 and said that afterwards he would make it seem as if Sheila had done it and then killed herself.
100. Julie Mugford spent the weekend before the killings with the appellant in Goldhanger. During that period he dyed his hair black and she saw his mother's bicycle at the address. Other witnesses saw the bicyle at the appellant's home following the killings. Robert Boutflour saw mud on the walls of the tyres but not on the tread, as if it had been through deep mud.
101. At about 9.50 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 August the appellant telephoned Miss Mugford. During their conversation that evening he said he was "pissed off" and had been thinking about the crime all day and that it was going to be "tonight or never". The following morning she was awoken by a telephone call from the appellant to her lodgings in London. The appellant said to her, "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Miss Mugford did not take him seriously and went back to sleep. As to the timing of this call, Miss Mugford said in evidence said that it was between 3.00 and 3.30 a.m.
102. A number of Miss Mugford's housemates were disturbed by the telephone call and provided additional evidence as to timing. One, Helen Eaton, had been consulted by Julie Mugford, when the latter was first making a statement to the police about it. She put the time at 3.00 a.m. in evidence but agreed in cross-examination that it might have been as late as 3.30 a.m.
103. Another flat mate, Sue Battersby, said that she was positive that when she was disturbed, she had looked at her clock and the time shown was 3.12 a.m. However, she pointed out that she was in the habit of keeping her clock about 10 minutes early and police checks made on the clock confirmed this to be the case. If her evidence was right and if the clock was, as the evidence suggested, ten minutes fast, the time was probably no more than a minute or two after 3 a.m.
104. Joanna Woad gave evidence that when she heard the telephone, she looked at her digital clock and all that she noted was that the time was 2 something. This meant that according to her clock the time was between 2.00 and 2.59 a.m. If it was at the end of that bracket, it differed very little from the time suggested by Susan Battersby's evidence.
105. Miss Mugford described how later during the morning of Wednesday, 7 August 1985, the appellant telephoned her again. He said he could not speak for long, Sheila had gone mad and he told her not to go to work because a police car would come and pick her up. Miss Mugford was then taken to the house in Goldhanger, where out of earshot of the police officers, the appellant told her, "I should have been an actor".
106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.
108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.
109. In the course of her evidence Miss Mugford explained that initially she did not want to believe what the appellant had told her but then she became scared and the appellant had threatened her that if anything happened to him she would be implicated.
110. She and the appellant spent the following weekend with Colin Caffell and on 12 August she went to the house in Goldhanger with the appellant. There he told her that the police had been a bit slack because they had not done all the fingerprinting at White House Farm. On 16 August Miss Mugford attended the funerals of Nevill and June Bamber with the appellant and then on 19 August the funerals of Sheila Caffell and her children. During that period the witness spoke of the appellant taking her out for frequent meals, and buying expensive clothes for himself and for her. She described the appellant's mood during this period as "very happy". After one of the funerals they drank champagne and cocktails.
111. Miss Mugford spent the weekend of 17-18 August 1985 with the appellant in Eastbourne and it was then that she began to ask how he could behave as he was doing. She kept telling him "£2,000 for five lives". The following week the couple went to Amsterdam for two days, staying in expensive hotels and eating out. On 27 August Miss Mugford returned alone to her lodgings in London and she told her friend Susan Battersby of what the appellant had done.
112. On Saturday 31 August Julie Mugford asked the appellant whether he loved her. He said he did not know. Again they spoke about the murders. Miss Mugford said she could not cope with him behaving so normally and asked why he had told her what had happened. She said she felt guilt for the two of them. The appellant told her he was doing everybody a favour and there was nothing to feel guilty about. Later that night the appellant told her that she was the best friend he had ever had and he had entrusted his life to her.
113. On Tuesday 3 September the couple met again in London at the flat which had belonged to Sheila Caffell. Again Miss Mugford raised the question of their relationship and his part in the killing. During their conversation the appellant received a telephone call from an ex-girlfriend and Miss Mugford heard him asking her out. She became angry and threw an ornament box at a mirror and then slapped the appellant. He became very angry and twisted her arm up behind her back. Four days later, she went to the police.
114. During the course of making her witness statements in September, Julie Mugford admitted that at Easter 1985 she had helped the appellant steal money from the offices of the Osea Road Caravan site which was owned by the appellant and various members of the family. On this occasion he had stage-managed the scene to give it the appearance of a burglary by an outsider. Some £970-£980 had been stolen which was used in part to buy a lavish meal.
115. Miss Mugford also admitted that she had used a cheque book belonging to Susan Battersby which had been falsely reported as stolen to obtain some £700 of property in Oxford Street. She told the jury that she and Miss Battersby had repaid the money to the bank in October 1985 and that she had been cautioned for the offence.
Mention of trip to Amsterdam no mention of cannabis smuggled into UK?
Mention of OCP burglary no mention of cannabis
Mention of JM's cheque fraud no mention of cannabis
The plot thickens ?>)()<
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 05:05:53 PM
I can't be bothered to read through JB's police interviews again but I'm pretty sure there's no mention of cannabis.
Just had a quick look at the CoA document. The following is the section re JM. I've highlighted in bold the sections re the trip to Amsterdam/drug run, OCP and cheque fraud. Why no mention of the cannabis?
Julie Mugford 94. Julie Mugford was 21 years old at the time of the offences and a student at Goldsmiths College at the University of London. She met the appellant in 1983 whilst working in Colchester during one of the vacations and they became boyfriend and girlfriend. During the relationship she met the appellant's parents, his sister and her children. In December 1984 the appellant had proposed to her.
95. On the day after the killings, Miss Mugford made a statement to the police. In that statement she said nothing adverse to the appellant. She spoke of receiving a telephone call from him at about 3.30 a.m. on the night of the killings. She said that he "sounded disjointed and worried" and he said "There's something wrong at home." She had been sleepy and had not asked what it was.
96. On 7 September, Julie Mugford contacted the police and told them that she had omitted matters from her earlier statement. She then gave a very different account that she was to repeat to the jury in evidence.
97. She said that after she met the appellant, it quickly became obvious to her that the appellant disliked his family. He resented his parents whom he claimed, "tried to run his life" and he said he did not get on with Sheila Caffell. He was angry that she lived in an expensive flat in Maida Vale, which was maintained by his parents. Between July and October 1984, he said that his parents were getting him down and he said that he wished "he could get rid of them all". In evidence Miss Mugford said this included his sister and children because "if he was going to get rid of them it would have to be all of them". The appellant explained to her that his "father was getting old, his mother was mad … Sheila was mad as well … and in respect of the way the twins had been brought up, … they were emotionally disturbed and unbalanced". The appellant also told Julie Mugford he had seen copies of his parents' wills.
98. Miss Mugford's evidence was that the conversations about killing the appellant's family became more frequent between October and December 1984. At first he spoke of being at the house for supper and then drugging the family before driving back to Goldhanger in his car. He said that he then intended returning to the farmhouse on foot or on bicycle and burning the house down. The appellant then appeared to realise that it would be difficult to burn the premises down especially since it would have the consequent effect of destroying the valuables within the property.
99. Later the appellant said he had decided to shoot his family and he told her that he had discovered that the catch on the kitchen window did not work and he could gain access to the house in that way. The appellant said he planned to leave the address by a different window, which latched when it was shut from the outside. He spoke of Sheila Caffell being a good scapegoat because of her admission to hospital during Easter 1985 and said that afterwards he would make it seem as if Sheila had done it and then killed herself.
100. Julie Mugford spent the weekend before the killings with the appellant in Goldhanger. During that period he dyed his hair black and she saw his mother's bicycle at the address. Other witnesses saw the bicyle at the appellant's home following the killings. Robert Boutflour saw mud on the walls of the tyres but not on the tread, as if it had been through deep mud.
101. At about 9.50 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 August the appellant telephoned Miss Mugford. During their conversation that evening he said he was "pissed off" and had been thinking about the crime all day and that it was going to be "tonight or never". The following morning she was awoken by a telephone call from the appellant to her lodgings in London. The appellant said to her, "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Miss Mugford did not take him seriously and went back to sleep. As to the timing of this call, Miss Mugford said in evidence said that it was between 3.00 and 3.30 a.m.
102. A number of Miss Mugford's housemates were disturbed by the telephone call and provided additional evidence as to timing. One, Helen Eaton, had been consulted by Julie Mugford, when the latter was first making a statement to the police about it. She put the time at 3.00 a.m. in evidence but agreed in cross-examination that it might have been as late as 3.30 a.m.
103. Another flat mate, Sue Battersby, said that she was positive that when she was disturbed, she had looked at her clock and the time shown was 3.12 a.m. However, she pointed out that she was in the habit of keeping her clock about 10 minutes early and police checks made on the clock confirmed this to be the case. If her evidence was right and if the clock was, as the evidence suggested, ten minutes fast, the time was probably no more than a minute or two after 3 a.m.
104. Joanna Woad gave evidence that when she heard the telephone, she looked at her digital clock and all that she noted was that the time was 2 something. This meant that according to her clock the time was between 2.00 and 2.59 a.m. If it was at the end of that bracket, it differed very little from the time suggested by Susan Battersby's evidence.
105. Miss Mugford described how later during the morning of Wednesday, 7 August 1985, the appellant telephoned her again. He said he could not speak for long, Sheila had gone mad and he told her not to go to work because a police car would come and pick her up. Miss Mugford was then taken to the house in Goldhanger, where out of earshot of the police officers, the appellant told her, "I should have been an actor".
106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.
108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.
109. In the course of her evidence Miss Mugford explained that initially she did not want to believe what the appellant had told her but then she became scared and the appellant had threatened her that if anything happened to him she would be implicated.
110. She and the appellant spent the following weekend with Colin Caffell and on 12 August she went to the house in Goldhanger with the appellant. There he told her that the police had been a bit slack because they had not done all the fingerprinting at White House Farm. On 16 August Miss Mugford attended the funerals of Nevill and June Bamber with the appellant and then on 19 August the funerals of Sheila Caffell and her children. During that period the witness spoke of the appellant taking her out for frequent meals, and buying expensive clothes for himself and for her. She described the appellant's mood during this period as "very happy". After one of the funerals they drank champagne and cocktails.
111. Miss Mugford spent the weekend of 17-18 August 1985 with the appellant in Eastbourne and it was then that she began to ask how he could behave as he was doing. She kept telling him "£2,000 for five lives". The following week the couple went to Amsterdam for two days, staying in expensive hotels and eating out. On 27 August Miss Mugford returned alone to her lodgings in London and she told her friend Susan Battersby of what the appellant had done.
112. On Saturday 31 August Julie Mugford asked the appellant whether he loved her. He said he did not know. Again they spoke about the murders. Miss Mugford said she could not cope with him behaving so normally and asked why he had told her what had happened. She said she felt guilt for the two of them. The appellant told her he was doing everybody a favour and there was nothing to feel guilty about. Later that night the appellant told her that she was the best friend he had ever had and he had entrusted his life to her.
113. On Tuesday 3 September the couple met again in London at the flat which had belonged to Sheila Caffell. Again Miss Mugford raised the question of their relationship and his part in the killing. During their conversation the appellant received a telephone call from an ex-girlfriend and Miss Mugford heard him asking her out. She became angry and threw an ornament box at a mirror and then slapped the appellant. He became very angry and twisted her arm up behind her back. Four days later, she went to the police.
114. During the course of making her witness statements in September, Julie Mugford admitted that at Easter 1985 she had helped the appellant steal money from the offices of the Osea Road Caravan site which was owned by the appellant and various members of the family. On this occasion he had stage-managed the scene to give it the appearance of a burglary by an outsider. Some £970-£980 had been stolen which was used in part to buy a lavish meal.
115. Miss Mugford also admitted that she had used a cheque book belonging to Susan Battersby which had been falsely reported as stolen to obtain some £700 of property in Oxford Street. She told the jury that she and Miss Battersby had repaid the money to the bank in October 1985 and that she had been cautioned for the offence.
Mention of trip to Amsterdam no mention of cannabis smuggled into UK?
Mention of OCP burglary no mention of cannabis
Mention of JM's cheque fraud no mention of cannabis
The plot thickens ?>)()<
Because it had no relevance at all to the legal issues. A court summary of the facts doesn't mention anything and everything. The lawyers on both sides present their own brief recitation of the facts in their briefs and the court draws from one or both. Most things quoted in court decisions are lifted from briefs. While some of the product is unique from judges a majority is not. Most lay people reading court decisions have never seen the briefs and are thus unaware of this practice.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
Because it had no relevance at all to the legal issues. A court summary of the facts doesn't mention anything and everything. The lawyers on both sides present their own brief recitation of the facts in their briefs and the court draws from one or both. Most things quoted in court decisions are lifted from briefs. While some of the product is unique from judges a majority is not. Most lay people reading court decisions have never seen the briefs and are thus unaware of this practice.
But why mention OCP, JM's cheque fraud and going to Amsterdam staying in expensive hotels and eating out?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 05:25:01 PM
There are lots of different strains of cannabis plant, just like any other plant species, they all have slightly different looking flowers, different tastes and smells.
White Rhino, for instance, is one variety that's very sort after, has a very high THC content.
There are other interesetingly named varietys like Cheese , Purple Haze, Strawberry Chronic or Mango, to name a few.
I love all of natures beautiful fruits ?>)()<
Sounds interesting but I thinks its safer all round if I stick to my beer and wine! I do recall in the early 90's I worked with a guy who was into cannabis. Another guy in the office who was a smoker but not into cannabis bought some and we smoked it together round my place. I think I made the cigarettes up but had no idea about the quantity of cannabis to use. I've never smoked apart from a couple of packets when I was about 16. Anyway the smoker was puffing away inhaling deeply. I've never been able to inhale smoke properly so was obviously taking in far less than my friend. Within say 30 mins my friend was sick and sitting on the loo with his head over the sink 8)><( Then he started shivering like crazy. I run a bath for him. He then went to bed and in the morning was absolutely fine. I assume it was strong stuff and too much was used?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 06:31:44 PM
But why mention OCP, JM's cheque fraud and going to Amsterdam staying in expensive hotels and eating out?
Because it pertained to a timeline of what occurred after the murders. The prosecution was in part discussing how he was living it up afterwards because that played into his guilt. They were arguing he did it for greed.
One of the defense allegations pertained to the issue of the check fraud. They had to discuss the alleged facts related to such in the summary.
The drugs issues were not relevant to any appeal issues or really anything else. If the drugs somehow could have been parlayed into suggesting Jeremy's guilt then the prosecution would have had a motive to try to mention them somehow. Each side shapes the summary to their own advantage.
When you have a long trial it is impossible to mention anything and everything in a summary of the facts. Lawyers craft the narrative around what they want to suggest. You provide a citation for any claim with a reference to where you took the claim from be it testimony in court, a deposition, affidavit etc and then the court decides what they will believe or adopt.
Here is how you write in a brief, anytime you make a factual claim you must support it with a source:
There was no blood inside Sheila's hands or fingers (Vanesis Trial Testimony P17-18) therefore Sheila could not have left a bloody print at the scene and the fact one was not found (Hammersley Trial Testimony, Davidson Trial Testimony yada yada) is not surprising.
It is even worse when making a statement about the law. One must cite the statute and any case law that supports the proposition you assert. That is why you will see large string court citations. Those citations you see in a court decision were lifted from the briefs, the lawyers made the courts aware of such citations.
How annoying would it be if I did this in every single sentence I write when posting here? Obviously it is much more difficult to read.
Since the appeal decision doesn't discuss all the facts and evidence that is why you can't exclusively look to it to learn everything about this case. The best use of that decision is to figure out what will be needed in order for a court to vacate Jeremy's conviction. You can see how the judges view the issues.
In the old days you had to go to the courthouse to see filings including briefs. Now they are often scanned and available on the net. They provide extra info than a court decision will contain. We are fortunate that we have so many statements and trial transcripts in this case considering the age. So we are in a pretty strong position if we actually utilize them.
It is too bad CAL didn't utilize them more completely especially when interviewing people. She should have showed Vanezis his testimony and then asked questions related to such seeing if it jogged his memory. Many times after a long time passes people will forget things and even have false memories. It is one reason why statutes of limitations need to exist.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 06:40:44 PM
Because it had no relevance at all to the legal issues. A court summary of the facts doesn't mention anything and everything. The lawyers on both sides present their own brief recitation of the facts in their briefs and the court draws from one or both. Most things quoted in court decisions are lifted from briefs. While some of the product is unique from judges a majority is not. Most lay people reading court decisions have never seen the briefs and are thus unaware of this practice.
Penalties for possession, supply and production of cannabis:
I don't understand why JM's cheque fraud, the OCP burglary and the visit to Amsterdam with the emphasis on staying in an expensive hotel and eating out are all mentioned in the 2002 CoA doc but no mention of the cannabis &%+((£
I think EP threatened JM, SB, LR and JR with drug related offences unless they cooperated. This is the reason we don't hear about it. JB was bailed over OCP. Why were charges not pressed about the cannabis? Why didn't EP make reference to the cannabis production, supply and possession in JB's interviews? The maximum penalties are severe - see above link.
It is relevant to the case because he was producing and supplying for financial gain.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 07:03:38 PM
I don't understand why JM's cheque fraud, the OCP burglary and the visit to Amsterdam with the emphasis on staying in an expensive hotel and eating out are all mentioned in the 2002 CoA doc but no mention of the cannabis &%+((£
I think EP threatened JM, SB, LR and JR with drug related offences unless they cooperated. This is the reason we don't hear about it. JB was bailed over OCP. Why were charges not pressed about the cannabis? Why didn't EP make reference to the cannabis production, supply and possession in JB's interviews? The maximum penalties are severe - see above link.
It is relevant to the case because he was producing and supplying for financial gain.
1) "Miss Mugford spent the weekend of 17-18 August 1985 with the appellant in Eastbourne and it was then that she began to ask how he could behave as he was doing. She kept telling him "£2,000 for five lives". The following week the couple went to Amsterdam for two days, staying in expensive hotels and eating out. On 27 August Miss Mugford returned alone to her lodgings in London and she told her friend Susan Battersby of what the appellant had done."
This is part of a chronological summary of what transpired after the murders. You can't see how it would play to the states case against him that he stopped working immediately after the murders and was living it up on his parent's money? Come now you well understand this doesn't look good and supports the motive presented at trial.
2) One of the defense arguments on appeal pertained to the check fraud. That is why they had to mention facts related to it.
"We turn, therefore, to consider the second aspect of this ground. After revealing these matters to the police, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby went to Susan Battersby's bank, the victim of their cheque book fraud, to inform the bank of their dishonesty. The second limb of this ground contends that the prosecution failed to disclose the action of DS Jones and other unidentified officers in respect of the cheque fraud perpetrated by Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby on the Midland Bank."
3) "During the course of making her witness statements in September, Julie Mugford admitted that at Easter 1985 she had helped the appellant steal money from the offices of the Osea Road Caravan site which was owned by the appellant and various members of the family. On this occasion he had stage-managed the scene to give it the appearance of a burglary by an outsider. Some £970-£980 had been stolen which was used in part to buy a lavish meal."
Who owned this site? His family. He stole from his family prior to killing them. What did he use the money for- lavish meals just like he did after killing them. You don't see why the prosecution would raise this as damaging evidence?
What relevance to the murders did the drugs hold? None. If there were evidence that Nevill found out Jeremy was using to property for drugs and going to turn him in then drugs would be relevant. But they failed to hold any relevance if anything testimony about drugs would be more prejudicial than probative. Jeremy was so greedy he was into drugs but failed to make enough money to decided to kill his family. Would that be a fair argument to make? Of course not. The drug issue was of no relevance.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 07:24:16 PM
JM claims during the summer of '85 a neighbour called JB advising him the police or drug squad called at his property to look at his cannabis plants in the garden. As a result of this JB destroyed them?! &%+((£
JM claims during the summer of '85 a neighbour called JB advising him the police or drug squad called at his property to look at his cannabis plants in the garden. As a result of this JB destroyed them?! &%+((£
Even if they did what relevance would that be to the murders?
Holly is suspected of killing her parents for their inheritance.
Though Holly was employed she was known to turn tricks for extra money and fun.
If the prosecution wanted to argue that you were an immoral person because you turned tricks and this supports you would kill your family would you try to keep it out of court?
It would be a BS argument that is akin to the drug issue to Jeremy. It would not be relevant at all just prejudicial.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 07:46:00 PM
1) "Miss Mugford spent the weekend of 17-18 August 1985 with the appellant in Eastbourne and it was then that she began to ask how he could behave as he was doing. She kept telling him "£2,000 for five lives". The following week the couple went to Amsterdam for two days, staying in expensive hotels and eating out. On 27 August Miss Mugford returned alone to her lodgings in London and she told her friend Susan Battersby of what the appellant had done."
This is part of a chronological summary of what transpired after the murders. You can't see how it would play to the states case against him that he stopped working immediately after the murders and was living it up on his parent's money? Come now you well understand this doesn't look good and supports the motive presented at trial.
2) One of the defense arguments on appeal pertained to the check fraud. That is why they had to mention facts related to it.
"We turn, therefore, to consider the second aspect of this ground. After revealing these matters to the police, Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby went to Susan Battersby's bank, the victim of their cheque book fraud, to inform the bank of their dishonesty. The second limb of this ground contends that the prosecution failed to disclose the action of DS Jones and other unidentified officers in respect of the cheque fraud perpetrated by Julie Mugford and Susan Battersby on the Midland Bank."
3) "During the course of making her witness statements in September, Julie Mugford admitted that at Easter 1985 she had helped the appellant steal money from the offices of the Osea Road Caravan site which was owned by the appellant and various members of the family. On this occasion he had stage-managed the scene to give it the appearance of a burglary by an outsider. Some £970-£980 had been stolen which was used in part to buy a lavish meal."
Who owned this site? His family. He stole from his family prior to killing them. What did he use the money for- lavish meals just like he did after killing them. You don't see why the prosecution would raise this as damaging evidence?
What relevance to the murders did the drugs hold? None. If there were evidence that Nevill found out Jeremy was using to property for drugs and going to turn him in then drugs would be relevant. But they failed to hold any relevance if anything testimony about drugs would be more prejudicial than probative. Jeremy was so greedy he was into drugs but failed to make enough money to decided to kill his family. Would that be a fair argument to make? Of course not. The drug issue was of no relevance.
I think the cannabis is as relevant to the case as the OCP burglary and the cheque fraud. They were all crimes for financial gain all of which JM was involved in and two of which JB was involved in. Cannabis is mood altering. JM said JB spent the proceeds for the cannabis sales and didn't bank the money. EP asked JB to sign an authority for EP to access his bank stats. JB told JM he needed 2k to pay MM without anyone finding out.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 08:01:41 PM
Even if they did what relevance would that be to the murders?
Holly is suspected of killing her parents for their inheritance.
Though Holly was employed she was known to turn tricks for extra money and fun.
If the prosecution wanted to argue that you were an immoral person because you turned tricks and this supports you would kill your family would you try to keep it out of court?
It would be a BS argument that is akin to the drug issue to Jeremy. It would not be relevant at all just prejudicial.
I don't see why OCP and cheque fraud are relevant but the cannabis possession, production and supplying isn't?
Why is it relevant for the 2002 appeal to make reference to staying in an expensive hotel and eating out but not purchasing cannabis and smuggling it into UK?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
I don't see why OCP and cheque fraud are relevant but the cannabis possession, production and supplying isn't?
Why is it relevant for the 2002 appeal to make reference to staying in an expensive hotel and eating out but not purchasing cannabis and smuggling it into UK?
1) ONE OF THE DEFENSE GROUNDS of the appeal was based on the check fraud. HOW could the check fraud not be mentioned unless the court decided to ignore the ground? Ignoring it instead of addressing it would just create an issue for appealing. I don't know how to say it any plainer.
2) If you were a prosecutor and you knew that he stole from the family and used the money for expensive meals and trips and were arguing he killed the family in order to use the family's money for expensive meals and trips would you take advantage of the similarity and highlight it to a jury and appeal court to try to get them on your side? The similarity is just enough to get it in as opposed to prior bad acts that have no relation whatsoever and thus are not admissible. You frame issues here all the time to support your agenda you have to know that lawyers do the same.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 08:57:55 PM
As far as we know prior to JB and JM carrying out OCP and cheque fraud neither had previous convictions or any history of any other crimes. As such the penalties were unlikely to involve any sort of custodial sentence had charges been pressed. However using, producing and supplying cannabis carry much higher penalties. It seem likely that others such as Susan Battersby, James Richard and Elizabeth Rimmington were involved in some shape or form with the cannabis and imo EP were able to use the threat of drug charges against prosecution witnesses in order to get them to cooperate.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 09:16:26 PM
1) ONE OF THE DEFENSE GROUNDS of the appeal was based on the check fraud. HOW could the check fraud not be mentioned unless the court decided to ignore the ground? Ignoring it instead of addressing it would just create an issue for appealing. I don't know how to say it any plainer.
I didn't highlight the appeal point just the general background to trial and the fact cheque fraud and OCP was used but not the cannabis.
Potentially the defence could use the fact JM was using and supplying cannabis to further reduce her credibility with jurors.
2) If you were a prosecutor and you knew that he stole from the family and used the money for expensive meals and trips and were arguing he killed the family in order to use the family's money for expensive meals and trips would you take advantage of the similarity and highlight it to a jury and appeal court to try to get them on your side? The similarity is just enough to get it in as opposed to prior bad acts that have no relation whatsoever and thus are not admissible. You frame issues here all the time to support your agenda you have to know that lawyers do the same.
I don't see the difference between the prosecution arguing JB burgled OCP for financial gain and he used a property owned by his parents which he occupied rent free and was using to produce cannabis plants and supplying for financial gain? Especially when according to JM the police or drug squad had called at his property to look at the plants.
Did JB destroy the plants after he was tipped off by his neighbour that the police or drug squad had visited pre murders or did EP destroy them post murders?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 10:10:04 PM
I didn't highlight the appeal point just the general background to trial and the fact cheque fraud and OCP was used but not the cannabis.
Potentially the defence could use the fact JM was using and supplying cannabis to further reduce her credibility with jurors.
I don't see the difference between the prosecution arguing JB burgled OCP for financial gain and he used a property owned by his parents which he occupied rent free and was using to produce cannabis plants and supplying for financial gain? Especially when according to JM the police or drug squad had called at his property to look at the plants.
Did JB destroy the plants after he was tipped off by his neighbour that the police or drug squad had visited pre murders or did EP destroy them post murders?
I find it hard to believe that you can't see the difference between:
A) Growing pot on property you rent
and
B) Going to other property owned by your landlord and breaking in to steal from your landlord
Just like I would find it hard to believe you can't see the difference between:
C) Killing a landlord to steal their money/property
and
D) Killing a landlord who stumbled upon you doing something illegal and was planning to either evict you out or turn you in to police.
You are smart enough to recognize that they are factually different and thus the types of evidence relevant to proving guilt would be different.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 15, 2016, 10:13:13 PM
I don't understand why JM's cheque fraud, the OCP burglary and the visit to Amsterdam with the emphasis on staying in an expensive hotel and eating out are all mentioned in the 2002 CoA doc but no mention of the cannabis &%+((£
I think EP threatened JM, SB, LR and JR with drug related offences unless they cooperated. This is the reason we don't hear about it. JB was bailed over OCP. Why were charges not pressed about the cannabis? Why didn't EP make reference to the cannabis production, supply and possession in JB's interviews? The maximum penalties are severe - see above link.
It is relevant to the case because he was producing and supplying for financial gain.
If someone threatened to prosecute you for cannabis offences unless you helped put away someone you cared about - what would you do?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 15, 2016, 10:45:41 PM
If someone threatened to prosecute you for cannabis offences unless you helped put away someone you cared about - what would you do?
I don't think it was a case that EP simply threatened prosecution witnesses with drug related offences. I think EP sold it to them VERY HARD that JB was responsible leaving them with the distinct impression he was responsible:
From JB's police interviews:
"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?"
This was a lie. The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
I've never been involved in any criminality and had very little dealings with the police. I vaguely remember reporting some vandalism to a car and was a bit disappointed when they seemed uninterested! Oh and I've been stopped a couple of times for speeding. Today I wouldn't accept any authority figure at face value but 30 years ago if the police told me a boyfriend I had just broken up with had murdered his family I would probably believe them. I can quite imagine a situation where EP used the above and more along with telling JM and others the relatives all think JB is responsible. What was she to think? Bearing in mind she was probably traumatised by the whole thing identifying the bodies etc.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 10:52:25 PM
EP only learned about their supposed drug use when they admitted to it while EP was questioning them about something else.
It's possible, and likely imo, that EP planted listening devices at Bourtree Cottage, Morsehead Mansions and 42 Catherham Road and were one step ahead.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 15, 2016, 11:04:23 PM
I don't think it was a case that EP simply threatened prosecution witnesses with drug related offences. I think EP sold it to them VERY HARD that JB was responsible leaving them with the distinct impression he was responsible:
From JB's police interviews:
"I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?"
This was a lie. The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
I've never been involved in any criminality and had very little dealings with the police. I vaguely remember reporting some vandalism to a car and was a bit disappointed when they seemed uninterested! Oh and I've been stopped a couple of times for speeding. Today I wouldn't accept any authority figure at face value but 30 years ago if the police told me a boyfriend I had just broken up with had murdered his family I would probably believe them. I can quite imagine a situation where EP used the above and more along with telling JM and others the relatives all think JB is responsible. What was she to think? Bearing in mind she was probably traumatised by the whole thing identifying the bodies etc.
I can say with certainty, that if it were someone I had know for two years and had no reason to believe he was responsible, I'd have told them where to go. But not only did they get JM to go along with it, thay manage another three? Isn't it just another case of everone except Jeremy telling lies?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 12:41:14 AM
I can say with certainty, that if it were someone I had know for two years and had no reason to believe he was responsible, I'd have told them where to go. But not only did they get JM to go along with it, thay manage another three? Isn't it just another case of everone except Jeremy telling lies?
Why wouldn't they lie if EP sold them the idea JB was responsible plus they saved themselves from a criminal record in the process? Would JM, SB, LR and JR want to think of a mass murderer and child killer walking away with his parents estate?
Plus if any nagging doubt existed, I believe you have a degree in psychology so you will no doubt be familiar with Stanley Milgram's famous experiment on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience:
"Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century. Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings—the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by a legitimate authority—it continues to claim the attention of psychologists and other social scientists, as well as the general public. This study continues to inspire valuable research and analysis."
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 16, 2016, 12:36:36 PM
Why wouldn't they lie if EP sold them the idea JB was responsible plus they saved themselves from a criminal record in the process? Would JM, SB, LR and JR want to think of a mass murderer and child killer walking away with his parents estate?
Plus if any nagging doubt existed, I believe you have a degree in psychology so you will no doubt be familiar with Stanley Milgram's famous experiment on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience:
"Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century. Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings—the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by a legitimate authority—it continues to claim the attention of psychologists and other social scientists, as well as the general public. This study continues to inspire valuable research and analysis."
If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However, if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.
Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 06:26:47 PM
If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However, if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.
Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.
If JB was the kind of person they could see murdering his family, then why get involved with him in the first place?
Have you got any evidence showing the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience is dependent upon closeness?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 06:47:55 PM
If Jeremy Bamber wasn't the kind of person that they could see murdering his family, then of course they wouldn't lie - I know I certainly wouldn't. However, if he was/is, then it's more likely that they didn't need to lie and what they was true.
Yes I am familiar with Milgram and his electric shock experiment. However, there would have been a completely different outcome if the experiment involved shocking individuals that the subject was close to.
If the following isn't a lie how else can it be explained?
In JM's WS of 8th/9th Sep she states after she told SB they never discussed again:
"From that day to the present I haven't spoken to Susan about what Jeremy told me regarding the killings".
I'm not sure I ever said that Julie (or Susan) were completely truthful about everything (the bank fraud issue is also suspect). However, it is a massive leap to then suggest that they (and two others) lied to put Bamber away simply to escape a few petty charges and to keep such a thing quiet for 30 years, knowing he might be innocent.
Add to that, the cast of thousands who would also have to be lying (starting with West and Bonnet) to keep such a MOJ going.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 16, 2016, 07:29:58 PM
Susan Battersby is probably referring to the first time Julie told her about the shootings soon after they occurred on the 7th. August, (i.e. when in their Lewisham house/flat/bedroom), not three weeks later on the 27th. August in the restaurant when she revealed more and elaborated on Jeremy Bamber's involvement.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 07:57:00 PM
Susan Battersby is probably referring to the first time Julie told her about the shootings soon after they occurred on the 7th. August, (i.e. when in their Lewisham house/flat/bedroom), not three weeks later on the 27th. August in the restaurant when she revealed more and elaborated on Jeremy Bamber's involvement.
That's not how SB's WS reads:
"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions. When these times were I cannot remember but as we talked about it I asked her more questions. I asked her how Jeremy had found a mercenary..."
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 16, 2016, 08:12:42 PM
"After she first told me about the shootings both Julie and I spoke about it on a number of occasions. When these times were I cannot remember but as we talked about it I asked her more questions. I asked her how Jeremy had found a mercenary..."
It's obvious to ME that Susan is talking about when she was FIRST told about the shootings, i.e. on the 7th or very soon after, and between then and the 27th they discussed it on a number of occasions! After the 27th Julie then says that they didn't talk any more about it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 08:16:15 PM
I'm not sure I ever said that Julie (or Susan) were completely truthful about everything (the bank fraud issue is also suspect). However, it is a massive leap to then suggest that they (and two others) lied to put Bamber away simply to escape a few petty charges and to keep such a thing quiet for 30 years, knowing he might be innocent.
Add to that, the cast of thousands who would also have to be lying (starting with West and Bonnet) to keep such a MOJ going.
Supplying cannabis (class B drugs) is a serious crime.
I think all concerned genuinely believed, and probably continue to believe, JB is guilty as charged. If the police told prosecution witnesses SC was shot twice and this ruled out suicide why would they disbelieve the police? They would not have access to the pathologist or his reports. There paths may not even have crossed with the pathologists giving evidence at trial if they gave evidence on different days. They would be unable to google 'suicide multiple gunshot wounds'. I guess they could take themselves off to a library to thumb through forensic science books...
Who are the casts of thousands who have to be lying? Where do West and Bonnet fit in with lying?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 08:26:56 PM
It's obvious to ME that Susan is talking about when she was FIRST told about the shootings, i.e. on the 7th or very soon after, and between then and the 27th they discussed it on a number of occasions! After the 27th Julie then says that they didn't talk any more about it.
Reading the before and after pages of the WS's it's difficult to arrive at the above conclusion. I have found numerous inconsistencies in the WS's.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 08:29:51 PM
Supplying cannabis (class B drugs) is a serious crime.
I think all concerned genuinely believed, and probably continue to believe, JB is guilty as charged. If the police told prosecution witnesses SC was shot twice and this ruled out suicide why would they disbelieve the police? They would not have access to the pathologist or his reports. Their paths may not even have crossed with the pathologists giving evidence at trial if they gave evidence on different days. They would be unable to google 'suicide multiple gunshot wounds'. I guess they could take themselves off to a library to thumb through forensic science books...
Who are the casts of thousands who have to be lying? Where do West and Bonnet fit in with lying?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 16, 2016, 09:15:25 PM
Why wouldn't they lie if EP sold them the idea JB was responsible plus they saved themselves from a criminal record in the process? Would JM, SB, LR and JR want to think of a mass murderer and child killer walking away with his parents estate?
Plus if any nagging doubt existed, I believe you have a degree in psychology so you will no doubt be familiar with Stanley Milgram's famous experiment on the conflict between obedience to authority and personal conscience:
"Stanley Milgram's experiments on obedience to authority are among the most important psychological studies of this century. Perhaps because of the enduring significance of the findings—the surprising ease with which ordinary persons can be commanded to act destructively against an innocent individual by a legitimate authority—it continues to claim the attention of psychologists and other social scientists, as well as the general public. This study continues to inspire valuable research and analysis."
You forget that the police were content with suicide early on. While they were content with suicide it was the family that did not believe Sheila killed the others and herself. The police didn't have to convinced the family of anything. They didn't need the family to lie about anything they developed solid evidence establishing Jeremy's guilt which is why they prosecuted him and why he was convicted.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 09:23:28 PM
You forget that the police were content with suicide early on. While they were content with suicide it was the family that did not believe Sheila killed the others and herself. The police didn't have to convinced the family of anything. They didn't need the family to lie about anything they developed solid evidence establishing Jeremy's guilt which is why they prosecuted him and why he was convicted.
The family sowed the seeds of doubt. The police then found themselves in a difficult position as they didn't call to SoC a pathologist, biologist and ballistics expert as per procedures. Had these experts been called to SoC it's unlikely we would be discussing the case now.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 16, 2016, 09:48:34 PM
Supplying cannabis (class B drugs) is a serious crime.
I think all concerned genuinely believed, and probably continue to believe, JB is guilty as charged. If the police told prosecution witnesses SC was shot twice and this ruled out suicide why would they disbelieve the police? They would not have access to the pathologist or his reports. There paths may not even have crossed with the pathologists giving evidence at trial if they gave evidence on different days. They would be unable to google 'suicide multiple gunshot wounds'. I guess they could take themselves off to a library to thumb through forensic science books...
Who are the casts of thousands who have to be lying? Where do West and Bonnet fit in with lying?
A friend of mine was prosecuted for selling cannabis in the early 1990's, she and her boyfriend got community service and a small fine. Hardly something to confine an innocent man to prison for 30 years.
Think about what it would take to maintain this facade? Or are all these professional people stupid? Where do West and Bonnett come into it? The so called phone call from Nevill. Clearly, if nevill called they would know Bamber is innocent.
Julie knew Jeremy for 2 years, she isn't going to go from believing his family were killed by Sheila, to believing Jeremy guilty without proof and it's too much to consider that three other people would do the same - simply on the strengtho f a few comments that don't match.
On the one hand, David is saying they all colluded and that the statements are the same (even though they aren't) and as such, Bamber must be innocent and you're saying they're different ........ case of you can't win.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 16, 2016, 10:07:18 PM
The family sowed the seeds of doubt. The police then found themselves in a difficult position as they didn't call to SoC a pathologist, biologist and ballistics expert as per procedures. Had these experts been called to SoC it's unlikely we would be discussing the case now.
I disagree. Jeremy supporters will raise anything and everything no matter how ridiculous to get this case on the radar screen. It got so much coverage because of fanciful claims that turned out to be nonsense. Outrageous claims of proof that Nevill called police and police using the crime scene for training and that multiple moderators were seized and tested and doctored and made to appear only 1 was found and so forth are why we are discussing this case.
These claims got the attention of journalists and others. Upon scrutiny these claims all fell apart which is why the movement basically died but for a few diehards who look for additional things to try to use to fool people.
These diehards have twisted anything they can even typos and clerical errors.
The notion that police instantly know who commit most crimes and instantly know what happened is nonsense, that is on TV only. It is not at all unusual for an investigation to take months or even years. It is not unusual for someone who is initially suspected to be cleared or for evidence to point to someone not originally suspected. It is not unusual for testing to take months- only in September did the lab test and prove the Anschutz was the murder weapon that fired all 25 shots. It is not unusual for police ot return to do more searches because they found additional things to search for.
Conspiracy theorists will take advantage of such things and try to twist them but it will only sway the ignorant and people who are biased.
Objective informed people want real proof not unsubstantial allegations or worse allegations that totally fall apart upon inspection.
If Jeremy supporters were honest who would care about this case? The honest thing to say is as follows, "I believe Jeremy is innocent and was framed but have no evidence to prove it." How many people would give this case a second thought if someone said that? So they lie their arses off with spectacular claims. They have to hope people will not dig deeper and will just fall for their lies though because anyone who does did will find out they lied their arses off and then will be so perturbed they will walk away or worse they will go on a crusade against the lies/liars.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 16, 2016, 10:27:59 PM
A friend of mine was prosecuted for selling cannabis in the early 1990's, she and her boyfriend got community service and a small fine. Hardly something to confine an innocent man to prison for 30 years.
Think about what it would take to maintain this facade? Or are all these professional people stupid? Where do West and Bonnett come into it? The so called phone call from Nevill. Clearly, if nevill called they would know Bamber is innocent.
Julie knew Jeremy for 2 years, she isn't going to go from believing his family were killed by Sheila, to believing Jeremy guilty without proof and it's too much to consider that three other people would do the same - simply on the strengtho f a few comments that don't match.
On the one hand, David is saying they all colluded and that the statements are the same (even though they aren't) and as such, Bamber must be innocent and you're saying they're different ........ case of you can't win.
I don't believe any of the prosecution witnesses testified against JB on the basis they thought he was innocent. I think EP did a sterling job in convincing them JB was in fact guilty. The relatives didn't need any convincing and were able to influence the direction and outcome of the case as the SoC wasn't processed as it should have been on 7th August.
Who are all the professional people that need to be stupid?
I don't believe NB called EP.
I would hardly call the JB/JM relationship meaningful. They both sounded pretty immature perhaps due to the fact they were only in their early 20's. They didn't live together and what time they did spend together sounded like they were both spaced out on cannabis! JB said the relationship had been cooling for the past 6 months. They got together just before Christmas '83 and parted Aug '85 so a little over 18 months with the relationship cooling during the last 6 months.
David has compared the WS's and other info from the relatives and JM. I've compared the WS's from JM and SB. They are completely different comparisons with different conclusions.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 16, 2016, 11:27:34 PM
I don't believe any of the prosecution witnesses testified against JB on the basis they thought he was innocent. I think EP did a sterling job in convincing them JB was in fact guilty. The relatives didn't need any convincing and were able to influence the direction and outcome of the case as the SoC wasn't processed as it should have been on 7th August.
Who are all the professional people that need to be stupid?
I don't believe NB called EP.
I would hardly call the JB/JM relationship meaningful. They both sounded pretty immature perhaps due to the fact they were only in their early 20's. They didn't live together and what time they did spend together sounded like they were both spaced out on cannabis! JB said the relationship had been cooling for the past 6 months. They got together just before Christmas '83 and parted Aug '85 so a little over 18 months with the relationship cooling during the last 6 months.
David has compared the WS's and other info from the relatives and JM. I've compared the WS's from JM and SB. They are completely different comparisons with different conclusions.
So the police fabricated evidence and made up a scenario for Julie to follow and then convinced her friends to go along with it - all so they wouldn't be prosecuted for dealing weed? None of them could have thought that highly of Jeremy if they were willing to take on board he was capable of such a crime and as I said before, if they didn't think him capable it is more likely that they had reasons to think so. Also if EP gave Julie a script - why bother including a hit man and why would they choose MM?
Who are the professionals? Everyone at the COA COLP, CCRC, doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs, who haven't managed to see through the grand conspiracy (I was going to include politicians - but thought better of it given that the word 'stupid' was involved).
I'm glad you haven't fallen for for the 'call from Nevill' nonsense.
Exactly, you both compared statements and David suggested that they all colluded to come up with a consistent scenario. You suggest that the opposite was true, at least where JM and SB are concerned. I don't think the police are so stupid and to make such a balls up of the statements, which could easily be ripped apart if collusion or consistent lies were present. We can scrutinise every sentence and find fault, but I think we have to consider what significance such similarities are differences make? I think there is something of the drama Queen about JM and that she is capable of exaggerating - that's different from lying.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2016, 09:52:00 AM
So the police fabricated evidence and made up a scenario for Julie to follow and then convinced her friends to go along with it - all so they wouldn't be prosecuted for dealing weed? None of them could have thought that highly of Jeremy if they were willing to take on board he was capable of such a crime and as I said before, if they didn't think him capable it is more likely that they had reasons to think so. Also if EP gave Julie a script - why bother including a hit man and why would they choose MM?
Who are the professionals? Everyone at the COA COLP, CCRC, doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs, who haven't managed to see through the grand conspiracy (I was going to include politicians - but thought better of it given that the word 'stupid' was involved).
I'm glad you haven't fallen for for the 'call from Nevill' nonsense.
Exactly, you both compared statements and David suggested that they all colluded to come up with a consistent scenario. You suggest that the opposite was true, at least where JM and SB are concerned. I don't think the police are so stupid and to make such a balls up of the statements, which could easily be ripped apart if collusion or consistent lies were present. We can scrutinise every sentence and find fault, but I think we have to consider what significance such similarities are differences make? I think there is something of the drama Queen about JM and that she is capable of exaggerating - that's different from lying.
Well yes according to you. You've consistently maintained the silencer evidence was fabricated. I understand you believe EP/DS Jones were responsible.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 10:29:48 AM
A witness statement is a formal document containing your own account of the facts relating to issues arising in a dispute. Comments made in the statement should be limited to fact, and comments based on opinion should be kept to a minimum.
The purpose of the witness statement is to provide written evidence to support a party's case that will, if necessary, be used as evidence in court. The statement is a crucial part of the case, designed to show it in its strongest light. It is important, therefore, to ensure that the statement is accurate and comprehensive.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2016, 12:22:42 PM
A witness statement is a formal document containing your own account of the facts relating to issues arising in a dispute. Comments made in the statement should be limited to fact, and comments based on opinion should be kept to a minimum.
The purpose of the witness statement is to provide written evidence to support a party's case that will, if necessary, be used as evidence in court. The statement is a crucial part of the case, designed to show it in its strongest light. It is important, therefore, to ensure that the statement is accurate and comprehensive.
Gottcha. I refer to written or oral evidence from witnesses as witness testimony preceded by the word false or unreliable if applicable. When you referred to "fabricated evidence" I thought you were referring to the silencer. Well that's that sorted.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 01:23:36 PM
Gottcha. I refer to written or oral evidence from witnesses as witness testimony preceded by the word false or unreliable if applicable. When you referred to "fabricated evidence" I thought you were referring to the silencer. Well that's that sorted.
Not in this instance.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on June 17, 2016, 03:42:02 PM
On the one hand, David is saying they all colluded and that the statements are the same (even though they aren't) and as such, Bamber must be innocent and you're saying they're different ........ case of you can't win.
I am not saying Jeremy must be innocent because of Julies evidence, I am saying that because the evidence surrounding Julie contains a considerable degree of connivance and inconsistencies it does not prove Jeremy is guilty and should not be used as evidence of such. Like it or not the evidence surrounding Julie favours the defence case because it can be linked directly to AE and not Jeremy
Holly seems to be looking at the minor details like ones activities on certain days whereas my analysis was based on the crime scene. What Holly has noticed is significant because its the minor details that they wont bother to go over and correct.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 17, 2016, 06:52:04 PM
I am not saying Jeremy must be innocent because of Julies evidence, I am saying that because the evidence surrounding Julie contains a considerable degree of connivance and inconsistencies it does not prove Jeremy is guilty and should not be used as evidence of such. Like it or not the evidence surrounding Julie favours the defence case because it can be linked directly to AE and not Jeremy
Holly seems to be looking at the minor details like ones activities on certain days whereas my analysis was based on the crime scene. What Holly has noticed is significant because its the minor details that they wont bother to go over and correct.
There is zero evidence of an connivance except in your dreams.
Time and again I have pointed out to you her most important testimony. You have produced zilch to impeach it. You thus totally ignore it and make up a strawman argument.
Julie's crucial testimony:
1) Jeremy told her he was planning to kill his family for nearly a year but she thought he was kidding a) Jeremy initially told her he wanted to burn the house down as his family slept trying to make it appear Nevill fell asleep with a cigarette and this caused an accidental fire b) Julie gave Jeremy sleeping pills for himself. He subsequently told her he tried them out in contemplation of using them on his family but found them unsuitable. c) He told Julie the fire idea was no good and instead he would shoot everyone and make it appear sheila did it. d) He told Julie he would use the windows to get in and planned to use a bike and was going to tested out how long a bike ride would take 2) The night of the murders Jeremy phoned her around 11pm and complained to her about how hard he was forced to work and told her it was the night he would kill them. 3) After the murders before phoning police he phoned Julie and told her he had not been to bed yet, that his plan was going well and effectively told her they were dead.
This is the damning testimony from Julie.
That Jeremy lied to her afterwards about hiring a hitman to carry out the murders and other few details he provided to her about how the murders were carried out were not significant.
That Jeremy lied about the details afterward is fully admitted. Yet you create the strawman that the prosecution argued Jeremy was guilty because the details he provided after committing the murders. Next you say all of Julie's testimony is unreliable because of those lies were inaccurate.
You do this because you are a Jeremy activist. Your bias causes you to say her testimony must be rejected not logic. Biased activists make extraordinarily useless advocates. Biased activist ignore inconvenient things rather than addressing them. Ignoring things do not make them go away. An effective advocate must establish Julie lied about bullet points 1-3 posted above. Attacking what the prosecution admitted were largely lies from Jeremy to Julie fails to do so.
There is no reason for Julie to make up such things to frame Jeremy.
She told this to someone else who ran to the police with the story she didn't rush to them on her own.
Jeremy did indeed use windows to enter and exit WHF so it is possible for him to have planned to do such and to have told her he planned to do such.
Jeremy told others he would never share his inheritance with anyone else.
It is a fact that Jeremy called Julie shortly before the murders and shortly after before even calling police. This supports her story. If he actually received the distress call he claimed then he should not have called her period let alone before police. In addition he lied and claimed he called her after police though he called her first. He lied because he knew it undermined his claim of receiving a distress call.
Physical evidence establishes Sheila didn't load the magazine, fire the gun, didn't beat Nevill, and can't have killed herself. Physical evidence proves Sheila was shot while propped up against something with the moderator attached. The killer removed the moderator and put it away then dragged her body flat and stuck the gun across her body. The killer clearly framed her. This supports what Julie said.
You have no evidence to establish Julie lied you simply say she did because you are in the tank for Jeremy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2016, 07:07:34 PM
I don't recall reading in JM's WS's that JB was going to frame SC. I think he just said that he decided his family would be shot.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 07:53:19 PM
I am not saying Jeremy must be innocent because of Julies evidence, I am saying that because the evidence surrounding Julie contains a considerable degree of connivance and inconsistencies it does not prove Jeremy is guilty and should not be used as evidence of such. Like it or not the evidence surrounding Julie favours the defence case because it can be linked directly to AE and not Jeremy
Holly seems to be looking at the minor details like ones activities on certain days whereas my analysis was based on the crime scene. What Holly has noticed is significant because its the minor details that they wont bother to go over and correct.
It can hardly be linked to anything Jeremy admitted to - but where did Ann Eaton mention a hit man?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on June 17, 2016, 08:56:07 PM
There is zero evidence of an connivance except in your dreams.
Time and again I have pointed out to you her most important testimony. You have produced zilch to impeach it. You thus totally ignore it and make up a strawman argument.
Julie's crucial testimony:
1) Jeremy told her he was planning to kill his family for nearly a year but she thought he was kidding a) Jeremy initially told her he wanted to burn the house down as his family slept trying to make it appear Nevill fell asleep with a cigarette and this caused an accidental fire b) Julie gave Jeremy sleeping pills for himself. He subsequently told her he tried them out in contemplation of using them on his family but found them unsuitable. c) He told Julie the fire idea was no good and instead he would shoot everyone and make it appear sheila did it. d) He told Julie he would use the windows to get in and planned to use a bike and was going to tested out how long a bike ride would take 2) The night of the murders Jeremy phoned her around 11pm and complained to her about how hard he was forced to work and told her it was the night he would kill them. 3) After the murders before phoning police he phoned Julie and told her he had not been to bed yet, that his plan was going well and effectively told her they were dead.
This is the damning testimony from Julie.
That Jeremy lied to her afterwards about hiring a hitman to carry out the murders and other few details he provided to her about how the murders were carried out were not significant.
That Jeremy lied about the details afterward is fully admitted. Yet you create the strawman that the prosecution argued Jeremy was guilty because the details he provided after committing the murders. Next you say all of Julie's testimony is unreliable because of those lies were inaccurate.
You do this because you are a Jeremy activist. Your bias causes you to say her testimony must be rejected not logic. Biased activists make extraordinarily useless advocates. Biased activist ignore inconvenient things rather than addressing them. Ignoring things do not make them go away. An effective advocate must establish Julie lied about bullet points 1-3 posted above. Attacking what the prosecution admitted were largely lies from Jeremy to Julie fails to do so.
There is no reason for Julie to make up such things to frame Jeremy.
She told this to someone else who ran to the police with the story she didn't rush to them on her own.
Jeremy did indeed use windows to enter and exit WHF so it is possible for him to have planned to do such and to have told her he planned to do such.
Jeremy told others he would never share his inheritance with anyone else.
It is a fact that Jeremy called Julie shortly before the murders and shortly after before even calling police. This supports her story. If he actually received the distress call he claimed then he should not have called her period let alone before police. In addition he lied and claimed he called her after police though he called her first. He lied because he knew it undermined his claim of receiving a distress call.
Physical evidence establishes Sheila didn't load the magazine, fire the gun, didn't beat Nevill, and can't have killed herself. Physical evidence proves Sheila was shot while propped up against something with the moderator attached. The killer removed the moderator and put it away then dragged her body flat and stuck the gun across her body. The killer clearly framed her. This supports what Julie said.
You have no evidence to establish Julie lied you simply say she did because you are in the tank for Jeremy.
I have posted the evidence enough times. if its not going to sink in due to your stonewalling efforts what else can I do?
You have no evidence to show Julie is a credible witness you simply make her out to be because you are in the tank for the Police
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on June 17, 2016, 09:02:57 PM
It seems you can cultivate opium legally or illegally in this countries climate.
I have posted the evidence enough times. if its not going to sink in due to your stonewalling efforts what else can I do?
You have no evidence to show Julie is a credible witness you simply make her out to be because you are in the tank for the Police
And you have none to show that she isn't - you make her out not to be because you're hoping to be involved an appeal - do you want Brad to play you in the movie? (Don't hold you breath Brad!) @)(++(*
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 09:15:07 PM
And you have none to show that she isn't - you make her out not to be because you're hoping to be involved an appeal - do you want Brad to play you in the movie? (Don't hold you breath Brad!) @)(++(*
Rumour has it (poor old rumour) that David's got Brad breath. 8()-000(
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 09:45:53 PM
And you have none to show that she isn't - you make her out not to be because you're hoping to be involved an appeal - do you want Brad to play you in the movie? (Don't hold you breath Brad!) @)(++(*
I have shown time and time again she is no credible witness.
Even you admit she is a liar http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155) yet you protend she is a credible witness
How on earth can I be part of an appeal? I am no expert witness. I am not going to join the CT either.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on June 17, 2016, 10:32:53 PM
I have shown time and time again she is no credible witness.
Even you admit she is a liar http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155) yet you protend she is a credible witness
How on earth can I be part of an appeal? I am no expert witness. I am not going to join the CT either.
No you're not and expert - you really must remember that! And you haven't shown anything of the sort, you have simply posted your OPINION. The fact that Jeremy told Julie a load of BS, doesn't make her a bad witness, it simply shows what a conniving character Jeremy was/is. he told her enough to sort the wheat from the BS.
You can't just join the CT team, you have to be invited.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 17, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
I have shown time and time again she is no credible witness.
Even you admit she is a liar http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6356.msg281155.html#msg281155) yet you protend she is a credible witness
How on earth can I be part of an appeal? I am no expert witness. I am not going to join the CT either.
You have done nothing at all to demonstrate she made up her account of Jeremy telling her he was planning to kill his family, telling her the night of the murders that "tonight is the night" and after the murders calling her to tell her they were dead.
You constantly take your opinion and elevate it to proof.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on June 18, 2016, 12:11:11 AM
The fact that Jeremy told Julie a load of BS, doesn't make her a bad witness, it simply shows what a conniving character Jeremy was/is. he told her enough to sort the wheat from the BS.
That's not what you said, you said yourself that Julie got things elsewhere and acted as if she got it from JB, Simple! now your trying to wriggle out of that one
I have posted the evidence enough times. if its not going to sink in due to your stonewalling efforts what else can I do?
You have no evidence to show Julie is a credible witness you simply make her out to be because you are in the tank for the Police
You claim you already previously posted evidence and that you don't care to do so again. In this manner you avoid ever posting evidence and ever dealing with the points I raised. You just claim you did so in the past as a cop out for your inability to do so.
Who do you think you are fooling?
Here in reality not your make believe fantasy world, the fact that the trial judge and 2 appeal Courts found her evidence to be credible totally undermines your claim that as a matter of law we can't trust her testimony. They found her testimony could be trusted by a rational objective trier of fact.
Moreover, here in the real world the fact that physical evidence proves Sheila didn't beat Nevill, didn't load a gun, didn't shoot anyone else and can't have killed herself but rather was murdered and the scene staged to appear like she carried out the attack SUPPORTS Julie's account that Jeremy said he was going to shoot everyone and stage it to appear Sheila was responsible.
Here in the real World the fact that Nevill could not have made the alleged distress call to Jeremy because he was shot in the bedroom which had no phone and then could not speak SUPPORTS Julie's account.
Here in the real World the fact that Julie was the last person Jeremy spoke to before the murders and first person he spoke to after yet he lied and pretended he called police first supports her account.
The level of detail Julie provided of prior to the murders supports her account.
The fact Julie admitted to her own wrongdoing even rather than hide such supports she was telling the truth.
The fact that only Jeremy had a motive to make up the hitman claim supports her account that he told her such there is no way she would make it up herself.
There is more but this is more than sufficient to show there is plenty to support Julie. Facing this makes one a realist not someone int he tank for police.
You ignore it and refuse to be a realist because you are in the tank for Jeremy and refuse to face anything that harms Jeremy. Refusing to face it doesn't make it go away. Propagandists think that all that matters is perception and that reality is anything they want it to be, That is not real life though.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: adam on June 18, 2016, 09:23:03 AM
You have done nothing at all to demonstrate she made up her account of Jeremy telling her he was planning to kill his family, telling her the night of the murders that "tonight is the night" and after the murders calling her to tell her they were dead.
You constantly take your opinion and elevate it to proof.
I think David is trying to compensate for the fab four - Mike, Lookout Trudie and Nugs. He knows how damaging their support is for Bamber, so tries to big up his own contribution.
So a palm print on the bible everyone already knew about becomes a mysterious 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. NGB secretly contacted for public support. Evidence he can't answer he claims he did, such as in this weeks silencer thread, or posts a picture of a laughing man/empty library.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2016, 03:48:58 PM
I think David is trying to compensate for the fab four - Mike, Lookout Trudie and Nugs. He knows how damaging their support is for Bamber, so tries to big up his own contribution.
So a palm print on the bible everyone already knew about becomes a mysterious 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. NGB secretly contacted for public support. Evidence he can't answer he claims he did, such as in this weeks silencer thread, or posts a picture of a laughing man/empty library.
David will take the Fab Four to Famous Five status with his 'forensic evidence breakthrough' ?>)()<
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2016, 04:12:31 PM
So the police fabricated evidence and made up a scenario for Julie to follow and then convinced her friends to go along with it - all so they wouldn't be prosecuted for dealing weed? None of them could have thought that highly of Jeremy if they were willing to take on board he was capable of such a crime and as I said before, if they didn't think him capable it is more likely that they had reasons to think so. Also if EP gave Julie a script - why bother including a hit man and why would they choose MM?
Who are the professionals? Everyone at the COA COLP, CCRC, doctors, lawyers and Indian Chiefs, who haven't managed to see through the grand conspiracy (I was going to include politicians - but thought better of it given that the word 'stupid' was involved).
I'm glad you haven't fallen for for the 'call from Nevill' nonsense.
Exactly, you both compared statements and David suggested that they all colluded to come up with a consistent scenario. You suggest that the opposite was true, at least where JM and SB are concerned. I don't think the police are so stupid and to make such a balls up of the statements, which could easily be ripped apart if collusion or consistent lies were present. We can scrutinise every sentence and find fault, but I think we have to consider what significance such similarities are differences make? I think there is something of the drama Queen about JM and that she is capable of exaggerating - that's different from lying.
JB's case is no different from other long running MoJ's that go back and forth to the appeal courts.
Stefan Kizsko
"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory. The appeal is dismissed". Lord Justice Bridge.
Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Sally Clarke
"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."
Guildford Four
"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".
"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.
Birmingham 6
"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".
"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory. The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".
There are numerous cases where the 'great and good' have made a huge balls up on a grand scale over a very long period of time. They are not all restricted to the judicial system. Probably the best recent example is the global financial crisis of 2008. Other examples are Stephen Lawrence and Hillsborough.
All the above mentioned cases involve wrongdoing and incompetence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2016, 04:29:21 PM
A polite reminder please to refrain from referring to post content as "nonsense" and "false". Instead give your reasons for disagreeing and this will highlight any nonsense or falseness.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on June 18, 2016, 06:07:23 PM
These statements are an interesting read. I've always been put off as the handwriting is so awful. I'm sure I recall John posting some typed versions in a thread?
DI Miller refers to "physical sexual activity" &%+((£ and wonders how cannabis alters things!
I'm getting confused MM was married and having an affair with CB but it appears he was also visiting a woman called Mavis for "physical sexual acitvity"? Who would have thought it:
Posted this again because I GENUINELY, by mistake, missed the 'not' out of the latter part of the sentence! Soz 8()-000(
I've no need to do anything with my breath, or David's Brad breath, as I know the calibre of people working on the case behind the scenes ?>)()< Exciting times 8(>((
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on June 23, 2016, 05:56:11 PM
Exciting times!!!!? More like the calm before a lull! This place is dying on its feet, now that we know JB will never see the outside of HMP Wakefield... unless it's a home from home back to Full Sutton.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: scipio_usmc on June 23, 2016, 06:29:09 PM
Daniel Craig was meant to change the Bond movies. Bond was a capable fighter but hardly the strongest or best fighter. He relied on his whits and experience. Craig was meant to make it more action packed, the action of today as opposed to the quirky action of yesteryear. He was to make it more like the kind of action in the Transporter movie genre.
It is Bond in name but that's about it. It is not like the yesteryear movies. Bond went from being so handsome to instead having a really buff body.
The whole concept of Bond being a spy when he was so well known was always sort of ridiculous but still fun. That he was supposed to be such a good lover was more of a joke than anything else and Austin Powers had a field day with just how stupid it was. I think that caused a serious reboot into an action franchise because Austin Powers showed just how ridiculous things were plus you have the been there done that problem in addition to the audience tastes changing.
By the third Police Academy movie is was old hat. How many times could you watch the same stuff over and over again? I am sure that kids unfamiliar with the older ones watched the newer movies as they came out but I had seen enough and never even saw the others on cable.
The Daniel Craig Bond movies I didn't like because of the Bond angle. I simply liked the action in them and would still have liked them if they had not been branded Bond. I might have even liked them more without the Bond trappings.
The best Bond movies were: from Russia with Love, Thunderball, Live and Let Die, Dr No, Goldfinger, Octopusy, Diamonds are Forever, For your Eyes Only, the Spy who Loved Me, and Never Say Never. Any of the Bond movies with Connery or Moore are watchable but the aforementioned were the best by far. Lazenby was a good actor but I found his movie itself rather boring. I didn't like any of the Dalton or Pierce films.
The intrigue during the Cold War was the best setting for Bond if they want to keep the franchise alive they should cover that era.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 23, 2016, 07:02:12 PM
My Pete arranged a great night out for us at the London Palladium in memory of the late Ian Flemming. Sadly Holly G wasn't present!
I've no need to do anything with my breath, or David's Brad breath, as I know the calibre of people working on the case behind the scenes ?>)()< Exciting times 8(>((
Yay! (Underwhelmed)
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: adam on June 25, 2016, 07:24:51 PM
DC doesn't do it for me. And MM certainly doesn't. A DC/JB replacement is being sought. Henry Cavill gets my vote.
Cavill is the right age but is perhaps now too big a star and won't want to be tied down to Bond. He is already in the Superman franchise.
Idris Elba and Damien Lewis are the current favourites. Both are already too old and will be nearly 50 or older when a vancancy arises. Craig is contracted to do one more and may even go for a sixth. The days of a Bond actor being in his 50's are gone.
Richard Armitage won a recent vote on a Bond forum. He is also too old now but would have been fine in 2005.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 03, 2016, 11:59:35 AM
Because no one grew it here until 2002. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2667253/Not-Afghanistan-Hampshire-How-opium-poppies-grown-UK-make-morphine-NHS.html
Can't remember where I read that Nevil grew hemp but they may have grown neither..
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 03, 2016, 12:53:26 PM
Because no one grew it here until 2002. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2667253/Not-Afghanistan-Hampshire-How-opium-poppies-grown-UK-make-morphine-NHS.html
Can't remember where I read that Nevil grew hemp but they may have grown neither..
Possibly something put forward to explain the alleged surveillance of Nevill/WHF/ JB et al by MI5/6/7, SS et al?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 03, 2016, 01:18:15 PM
Because no one grew it here until 2002. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2667253/Not-Afghanistan-Hampshire-How-opium-poppies-grown-UK-make-morphine-NHS.html
Can't remember where I read that Nevil grew hemp but they may have grown neither..
Yes I appreciate the UK government didn't issue licences for opium poppies until 2002 but this doesn't explain how Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris identified what they thought were opium poppies growing in a field at WHF?
I've discussed with my farmer friends and they were not even aware opium poppies are grown in this country let alone licences. Apparently in 1985 it was possible to grow anything undetected. Today it's a requirement to complete returns about what is grown in every field which is verified by a land agent and satellite.
The only reference I've seen made about hemp is in connection with MM supplying JB with hemp seeds for growing cannabis.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 03, 2016, 10:31:00 PM
Possibly something put forward to explain the alleged surveillance of Nevill/WHF/ JB et al by MI5/6/7, SS et al?
Well according to Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris they identified opium poppies growing in a field at WHF on the morning of 7th Aug 1985?
JB was under surveillance around mid Sept 1985. I don't know anything about NB under surveillance or MI5/MI6. Isn't all this part of the fantasy stuff along with a freemason conspiracy and Prince Phillip fathering JB? JB is certainly gaffe prone so maybe 8)-)))
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 05, 2016, 03:18:04 PM
Well according to Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris they identified opium poppies growing in a field at WHF on the morning of 7th Aug 1985?
JB was under surveillance around mid Sept 1985. I don't know anything about NB under surveillance or MI5/MI6. Isn't all this part of the fantasy stuff along with a freemason conspiracy and Prince Phillip fathering JB? JB is certainly gaffe prone so maybe 8)-)))
Where did you get that from?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 06, 2016, 02:16:33 PM
But that's just Jeremy telling them about a licence - it doesn't say Craig and Harris 'identified' opium poppies? I'm not saying they didn't have a licence, maybe they did BUT, I'm sceptical of anything that originated from Jeremy. What I will say is, it's odd that he thought to mention it at that point. "Your whole family is dead" "Lets go look at the opium poppies" WEIRD!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 07, 2016, 07:26:13 AM
But that's just Jeremy telling them about a licence - it doesn't say Craig and Harris 'identified' opium poppies? I'm not saying they didn't have a licence, maybe they did BUT, I'm sceptical of anything that originated from Jeremy. What I will say is, it's odd that he thought to mention it at that point. "Your whole family is dead" "Lets go look at the opium poppies" WEIRD!
Is there any evidence JB told anyone WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies?
I should have said Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris identified what they thought were opium poppies. Obviously unless the poppies were removed and sent for analysis it remains an unknown. But it rather begs the question why MM's cannabis plants were removed from his home and sent for analysis and yet what might have been opium poppies at WHF appear to have gone undetected. Same applies to JB's cannabis plants at Bourtree cottage.
It seems unlikely WHF had a government licence to grow opium poppies in 1985 since it appears the first licences were issued in the early noughties.
Who said "Your whole family is dead"? And "Lets go look at the opium poppies"? Where are you quoting from?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 07, 2016, 11:53:15 AM
Is there any evidence JB told anyone WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies?
I should have said Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris identified what they thought were opium poppies. Obviously unless the poppies were removed and sent for analysis it remains an unknown. But it rather begs the question why MM's cannabis plants were removed from his home and sent for analysis and yet what might have been opium poppies at WHF appear to have gone undetected. Same applies to JB's cannabis plants at Bourtree cottage.
It seems unlikely WHF had a government licence to grow opium poppies in 1985 since it appears the first licences were issued in the early noughties.
Who said "Your whole family is dead"? And "Lets go look at the opium poppies"? Where are you quoting from?
My last comment was sarcasm BUT where does it state that Craig an Harris identified anything? It just says that JB told them they were licensed to grow the poppies and showed them a field, not that they saw any poppies- they were shown a field.
Yes, it does seem unlikely - so why would JB say it?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 07, 2016, 05:00:34 PM
My last comment was sarcasm BUT where does it state that Craig an Harris identified anything? It just says that JB told them they were licensed to grow the poppies and showed them a field, not that they saw any poppies- they were shown a field.
Yes, it does seem unlikely - so why would JB say it?
"He [Dr Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was specially licenced to grow the opium poppy which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Page's Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
Where does it state JB told them WHF was licenced to grow opium poppies and showed them a field?
Did JB say WHF was licenced to grow opium poppies? If he did perhaps this is what he was told by a.n.other(s)?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 07, 2016, 07:31:52 PM
"He [Dr Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was specially licenced to grow the opium poppy which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Page's Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
Where does it state JB told them WHF was licenced to grow opium poppies and showed them a field?
Did JB say WHF was licenced to grow opium poppies? If he did perhaps this is what he was told by a.n.other(s)?
I read it wrong - but wonder how the Dr would know about a licence?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 11:18:11 AM
I read it wrong - but wonder how the Dr would know about a licence?
Dr Craig was a police surgeon with 30 years experience so I assume he was very familiar with the widely used pain relieving drug morphine, which as I'm sure you know is derived from the opium poppy. I assume he was also aware of how it was produced and all the processes surrounding it ie licensed poppy farmers overseas. By this I mean he would probably be aware it was grown overseas under licence so asked if WHF had a licence. That's one explanation. Another explanation, as per CAL's book although it's unsourced, is that JB told Dr Craig WHF had a licence:
Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Blue has one WS only from Dr Craig and there's no mention of opium poppies but he might have made other WS's which CAL had access to via the CT but as I said CAL hasn't quoted her source.
Was it possible (and legal) that WHF had a licence to grow the poppies for an overseas pharmaceutical company? As the Bambers were tenant farmers did they have complete autonomy over operations or did the trustees of the Henry Smith Charity have a say? If the former was there anything that prevented NB negotiating, either directly or indirectly, with a foreign government/pharmaceutical company to farm opium poppies? If the latter maybe NB was following instructions from the trustees.
As NB was a RAF pilot in WW2 I am sure he would be more familiar than most with many aspects of morphine.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 08, 2016, 12:11:55 PM
Dr Craig was a police surgeon with 30 years experience so I assume he was very familiar with the widely used pain relieving drug morphine, which as I'm sure you know is derived from the opium poppy. I assume he was also aware of how it was produced and all the processes surrounding it ie licensed poppy farmers overseas. By this I mean he would probably be aware it was grown overseas under licence so asked if WHF had a licence. That's one explanation. Another explanation, as per CAL's book although it's unsourced, is that JB told Dr Craig WHF had a licence:
Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Blue has one WS only from Dr Craig and there's no mention of opium poppies but he might have made other WS's which CAL had access to via the CT but as I said CAL hasn't quoted her source.
Was it possible (and legal) that WHF had a licence to grow the poppies for an overseas pharmaceutical company? As the Bambers were tenant farmers did they have complete autonomy over operations or did the trustees of the Henry Smith Charity have a say? If the former was there anything that prevented NB negotiating, either directly or indirectly, with a foreign government/pharmaceutical company to farm opium poppies? If the latter maybe NB was following instructions from the trustees.
As NB was a RAF pilot in WW2 I am sure he would be more familiar than most with many aspects of morphine.
One has to speculate on why, in the midst of mayhem, Jeremy felt the need to pick poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 08, 2016, 12:32:51 PM
Dr Craig was a police surgeon with 30 years experience so I assume he was very familiar with the widely used pain relieving drug morphine, which as I'm sure you know is derived from the opium poppy. I assume he was also aware of how it was produced and all the processes surrounding it ie licensed poppy farmers overseas. By this I mean he would probably be aware it was grown overseas under licence so asked if WHF had a licence. That's one explanation. Another explanation, as per CAL's book although it's unsourced, is that JB told Dr Craig WHF had a licence:
Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Blue has one WS only from Dr Craig and there's no mention of opium poppies but he might have made other WS's which CAL had access to via the CT but as I said CAL hasn't quoted her source.
Was it possible (and legal) that WHF had a licence to grow the poppies for an overseas pharmaceutical company? As the Bambers were tenant farmers did they have complete autonomy over operations or did the trustees of the Henry Smith Charity have a say? If the former was there anything that prevented NB negotiating, either directly or indirectly, with a foreign government/pharmaceutical company to farm opium poppies? If the latter maybe NB was following instructions from the trustees.
As NB was a RAF pilot in WW2 I am sure he would be more familiar than most with many aspects of morphine.
Maybe sourced it from Wilkes (page 20) who didn't give a source either?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 08, 2016, 01:33:22 PM
Dr Craig was a police surgeon with 30 years experience so I assume he was very familiar with the widely used pain relieving drug morphine, which as I'm sure you know is derived from the opium poppy. I assume he was also aware of how it was produced and all the processes surrounding it ie licensed poppy farmers overseas. By this I mean he would probably be aware it was grown overseas under licence so asked if WHF had a licence. That's one explanation. Another explanation, as per CAL's book although it's unsourced, is that JB told Dr Craig WHF had a licence:
Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
Blue has one WS only from Dr Craig and there's no mention of opium poppies but he might have made other WS's which CAL had access to via the CT but as I said CAL hasn't quoted her source.
Was it possible (and legal) that WHF had a licence to grow the poppies for an overseas pharmaceutical company? As the Bambers were tenant farmers did they have complete autonomy over operations or did the trustees of the Henry Smith Charity have a say? If the former was there anything that prevented NB negotiating, either directly or indirectly, with a foreign government/pharmaceutical company to farm opium poppies? If the latter maybe NB was following instructions from the trustees.
As NB was a RAF pilot in WW2 I am sure he would be more familiar than most with many aspects of morphine.
OK, so it did come from Jeremy then?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:08:52 PM
Dr Craig may "have made other witness statements which CAL had access too" which contained information regarding poppies?
I believe you have CAL's book APRIL so you will be familiar with the notes and references section where CAL details her sources. There's no source for her claim about JB explaining to Dr Craig WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2016, 03:11:58 PM
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
The bunch of flowers episode sounds like an over dramatised attempt to fain shock.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2016, 03:13:31 PM
I believe you have CAL's book APRIL so you will be familiar with the notes and references section where CAL details her sources. There's no source for her claim about JB explaining to Dr Craig WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.
There is; Notes section Chapter 21 item 23.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:23:50 PM
As far as I can see there's no evidence to support CAL's statement on page 179. I personally wouldn't rely on it especially when she goes to great pains to provide sources. Pages 426 - 462 detail all her sources. Why is there no source for the following?
Page 179:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
I look for reliable evidence not unquoted sources from book authors.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:27:58 PM
I believe that relates to the following statement:
"As DS Jones and Miller parked up in Page Lane, they spotted Jeremy walking towards the field. He had spoken to Dr Craig about the supper table discussion ending in a row about the care of the twins, whom he described as 'ill treated by their mother'.23"
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:29:32 PM
I believe that relates to the following statement:
"As DS Jones and Miller parked up in Page Lane, they spotted Jeremy walking towards the field. He had spoken to Dr Craig about the supper table discussion ending in a row about the care of the twins, whom he described as 'ill treated by their mother'.23"
It relates to the 'whole' section, that's how references work. It obviously all comes from the same statement which is why she has labelled it - there is no need to quote the same reference twice, unless another reference is quoted in between that breaks the chain of events.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:39:47 PM
It relates to the 'whole' section, that's how references work. It obviously all comes from the same statement which is why she has labelled it - there is no need to quote the same reference twice, unless another reference is quoted in between that breaks the chain of events.
No it doesn't relate to item 23. I've just read through the notes and references sections looking for sources from Dr Craig and it relates to item 11:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source".
Does anyone have this?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2016, 03:43:57 PM
No it doesn't relate to item 23. I've just read through the notes and references sections looking for sources from Dr Craig and it relates to item 11:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source".
Does anyone have this?
Yes it does, look at the notes that relate to chapter 21 - number 23 states clearly "Ian Craig W/S i October 1985" - The same information is also available in Blood Relations page 20-21.
If you have the paperback, it may be different but you just need to look up the item number relating to the chaper in question. In the hardback it is in chapter 21 and the item number is 23.
Item 11 does state what you have quoted but item 21 relates to the passage in question - I can photocopy it for you if you like?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 03:53:30 PM
Yes it does, look at the notes that relate to chapter 21 - number 23 states clearly "Ian Craig W/S i October 1985" - The same information is also available in Blood Relations page 20-21.
If you have the paperback, it may be different but you just need to look up the item number relating to the chaper in question. In the hardback it is in chapter 21 and the item number is 23.
Item 23 relates to the following:
"As DS Jones and Miller parked up in Page Lane, they spotted Jeremy walking towards the field. He had spoken to Dr Craig about the supper table discussion ending in a row about the care of the twins, whom he described as 'ill treated by their mother'.23"
I have the hardback. CAL identifies 3 sources of info from Dr Craig for chapter 21:
Item 11 : "Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source".
Item 13 : "Ian Craig, w/s, 7th August 1985.
Item 23 : "Ian Craig, w/s, 1st October 1985.
We were both wrong. I was wrong as I said there wasn't a source and there is it's item 11. You were wrong as you said it was item 23.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2016, 04:00:14 PM
"As DS Jones and Miller parked up in Page Lane, they spotted Jeremy walking towards the field. He had spoken to Dr Craig about the supper table discussion ending in a row about the care of the twins, whom he described as 'ill treated by their mother'.23"
I have the hardback. CAL identifies 3 sources of info from Dr Craig for chapter 21:
Item 11 : "Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source".
Item 13 : "Ian Craig, w/s, 7th August 1985.
Item 23 : "Ian Craig, w/s, 1st October 1985.
We were both wrong. I was wrong as I said there wasn't a source and there is it's item 11. You were wrong as you said it was item 23.
Pointless arguing over where it was written, fact is it's a relevant source and originated from Jeremy (according to Dr Craig).
Odd time to pick flowers when your family has just been massacred. I smell bacon!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 08, 2016, 04:25:33 PM
Pointless arguing over where it was written, fact is it's a relevant source and originated from Jeremy (according to Dr Craig).
Odd time to pick flowers when your family has just been massacred. I smell bacon!
There's no argument I was just interested in her source and I'm satisfied now it's item 11 which I overlooked.
Yes it is a relevant source, a police surgeon with 30 years experience:
"He was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry, he walked round to the kitchen yard and let the labrador out of the barn. Following him, Dr Craig felt Jeremy was 'grief stricken' and suffering 'emotional shock'. He said as much to Chief Superintendent Harris before departing, but confirmed that Jeremy was fit for interview".
I'm not really interested in any of the above. I'm interested in understanding more about the poppies eg were they opium poppies and if so why were they being grown and whether or not WHF had the appropriate authorisation to farm them.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 08, 2016, 07:38:31 PM
There's no argument I was just interested in her source and I'm satisfied now it's item 11 which I overlooked.
Yes it is a relevant source, a police surgeon with 30 years experience:
"He was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry, he walked round to the kitchen yard and let the labrador out of the barn. Following him, Dr Craig felt Jeremy was 'grief stricken' and suffering 'emotional shock'. He said as much to Chief Superintendent Harris before departing, but confirmed that Jeremy was fit for interview".
I'm not really interested in any of the above. I'm interested in understanding more about the poppies eg were they opium poppies and if so why were they being grown and whether or not WHF had the appropriate authorisation to farm them.
Depends on the colour and no one mentioned that. I agree with Myster, seems to have just been a distraction.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 08, 2016, 08:24:31 PM
The two main types grown here are easily distinguishable to anyone knowing something about flowers, which Dr Craig might have been...
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 08, 2016, 09:00:54 PM
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 08, 2016, 10:57:07 PM
What I'd like to know is what happened to the poppies that JB picked? Were they thrown away?
Telling EP his sister SC could have had a psychotic episode, as she had recently been in a mental hospital, could JB also have been drawing attention to the poppies on their medical grounds. Therefore reinforcing his claim that his sister had been having medical attention recently, or even that she was taking drugs. Hence his statement that they had a licence to grow the poppies.
It also states in CAL's book that the poppies were growing in a small area of the field, so not a whole field of them. My mistake Holly it was in DI Harris's statement I read about the poppies, and not CAL's book
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 09, 2016, 08:46:28 PM
What I'd like to know is what happened to the poppies that JB picked? Were they thrown away?
Telling EP his sister SC could have had a psychotic episode, as she had recently been in a mental hospital, could JB also have been drawing attention to the poppies on their medical grounds. Therefore reinforcing his claim that his sister had been having medical attention recently, or even that she was taking drugs. Hence his statement that they had a licence to grow the poppies.
It also states in CAL's book that the poppies were growing in a small area of the field, so not a whole field of them.
Yes I was wondering what happened to his posy.
Do you have the page number Opal for the "small" reference?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 09, 2016, 09:09:46 PM
It appears Dr Ian Craig was the president of association of police surgeons.
Here's a copy of the police surgeon supplement dated 18th April 1985 which Dr Craig contributed to. Interestingly pages 22 - 27 contain articles about opium poppies grown in Pakistan and drug addiction in the UK.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 09, 2016, 09:38:05 PM
Also pages 14 - 15 of the above refer to the association (of police surgeons) having an interest in clinical forensic medicine and experience of drug addicts in their roles as family doctors and in police custody.
It seems likely Dr Craig would be familiar with the opium poppy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 09, 2016, 10:26:50 PM
Holly, I found the mention of a small area in a field from your link above. it's on the bottom line.
Oh, ok thanks. I thought you had found some reference in CAL's book.
I find the above WS ambigious as it refers to looking at the poppies in a small area of a field. This could mean the poppies were confined to a small area of a large field or that they looked at a small area of a field filled with poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2016, 01:02:36 PM
Also pages 14 - 15 of the above refer to the association (of police surgeons) having an interest in clinical forensic medicine and experience of drug addicts in their roles as family doctors and in police custody.
It seems likely Dr Craig would be familiar with the opium poppy.
Not necessarily given that JB told him they were opium poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 10, 2016, 05:21:47 PM
Not necessarily given that JB told him they were opium poppies.
But he didn't just rely on what JB told him. He took it upon himself to ask Chief Sup Harris about JB's claims of a special licence and the pair walked down the lane to take a look at the at the poppies growing in a field.
Dr Craig was far more likely than most to know an opium poppy when he saw one due to his medical training and long experience in the profession ie prescribing morphine and methodone and working with heroin addicts. All these substances are derived from the opium poppy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2016, 06:39:01 PM
But he didn't just rely on what JB told him. He took it upon himself to ask Chief Sup Harris about JB's claims of a special licence and the pair walked down the lane to take a look at the at the poppies growing in a field.
Dr Craig was far more likely than most to know an opium poppy when he saw one due to his medical training and long experience in the profession ie prescribing morphine and methodone and working with heroin addicts. All these substances are derived from the opium poppy.
That really is just speculation, Harris didn't know anything about the license and as Craig doesn't actually confirm they were opium poppies, it's all very much Jeremy's word.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 10, 2016, 06:52:13 PM
That really is just speculation, Harris didn't know anything about the license and as Craig doesn't actually confirm they were opium poppies, it's all very much Jeremy's word.
I don't believe I am speculating. Dr Craig is far more likely to recognise an opium poppy than Joe Average due to his training and experience.
Is it possible you can write to JB and ask him?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 10, 2016, 06:55:23 PM
That really is just speculation, Harris didn't know anything about the license and as Craig doesn't actually confirm they were opium poppies, it's all very much Jeremy's word.
A doctor friend once told me that a pharmacist has greater knowledge of drugs than doctors -a fact confirmed by a pharmacist- so it MAY be a moot ;point as to whether Dr Craig knew an opium poppy from the common or garden variety.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 10, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
We'll get to the root of this poppy problem one of these days... but I've not got the foggiest idea why. 6&%5%
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 10, 2016, 07:07:01 PM
A doctor friend once told me that a pharmacist has greater knowledge of drugs than doctors -a fact confirmed by a pharmacist- so it MAY be a moot ;point as to whether Dr Craig knew an opium poppy from the common or garden variety.
Yes a pharmacist will have a greater knowledge of medicines than a doctor but I wasn't comparing a pharmacist and a medical doctor and medicines in general. I was comparing a medical doctor with Joe Average and drugs derived from opium.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 10, 2016, 07:11:55 PM
We'll get to the root of this poppy problem one of these days... but I've not got the foggiest idea why. 6&%5%
It might be something or nothing.
I don't believe it has ever been illegal to grow opium poppies in the UK? They are recommended by the RHS. I believe June was a keen gardener so she may have been growing some in small area of a field which she then intended to transfer to the garden at WHF. However why would JB say the farm had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry?
If JB was lying why wasn't this brought up in his interviews/trial? Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris obviously thought it was relevant enough to make comment in WS's and other written testimony. Some have said it was to cause a distraction etc but much was made of JB's behaviour post murders from the moment he was told of the deaths to the time he was charged. Eg thinking of his deceased pet dog Brambles, who he was very fond of, to force himself to vomit; eating a cooked breakfast; letting out a "chuckle" etc so if he was lying about the opium poppies to cause a distraction etc why did this fall under the radar?
It doesn't appear the UK Gov issued licences until 2002. Maybe NB was granted some special licence for stock piling in the event of a war (morphine) or something similar? NB and June would be ideal candidates for anything secret with their WW2 backgrounds/security checks etc.
No comment from any of the farm employees or relatives about any opium poppies. Bearing in mind PE took over the running of the farm in the aftermath. If the plants were purchased through the business account then BW may have seen an invoice.
When the relatives went into WHF post murders much was made of a small piece of cannabis resin in the safe yet nothing about opium poppies if that's what they were.
MM had cannabis plants removed from his house by the police and sent for analysis. I haven't seen anything about opium poppies being removed from WHF and sent for analysis.
Of course it's always possible that for whatever reason(s) WHF was doing something illegal and it was kept hushed up. Seems unlikely but one just never knows.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 10, 2016, 08:11:40 PM
I don't believe it has ever been illegal to grow opium poppies in the UK? They are recommended by the RHS. I believe June was a keen gardener so she may have been growing some in small area of a field which she then intended to transfer to the garden at WHF. However why would JB say the farm had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry?
If JB was lying why wasn't this brought up in his interviews/trial? Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris obviously thought it was relevant enough to make comment in WS's and other written testimony. Some have said it was to cause a distraction etc but much was made of JB's behaviour post murders from the moment he was told of the deaths to the time he was charged. Eg thinking of his deceased pet dog Brambles, who he was very fond of, to force himself to vomit; eating a cooked breakfast; letting out a "chuckle" etc so if he was lying about the opium poppies to cause a distraction etc why did this fall under the radar?
It doesn't appear the UK Gov issued licences until 2002. Maybe NB was granted some special licence for stock piling in the event of a war (morphine) or something similar? NB and June would be ideal candidates for anything secret with their WW2 backgrounds/security checks etc.
No comment from any of the farm employees or relatives about any opium poppies. Bearing in mind PE took over the running of the farm in the aftermath. If the plants were purchased through the business account then BW may have seen an invoice.
When the relatives went into WHF post murders much was made of a small piece of cannabis resin in the safe yet nothing about opium poppies if that's what they were.
MM had cannabis plants removed from his house by the police and sent for analysis. I haven't seen anything about opium poppies being removed from WHF and sent for analysis.
Of course it's always possible that for whatever reason(s) WHF was doing something illegal and it was kept hushed up. Seems unlikely but one just never knows.
OR, is it possible that in order to imply he had "friends in high places" or in order to elevate his status, Jeremy lied?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 10, 2016, 08:54:31 PM
OR, is it possible that in order to imply he had "friends in high places" or in order to elevate his status, Jeremy lied?
I've got 15 mins before the footy restarts.
Yes it is possible that's why I included it above. But if he was lying why wasn't this picked up on during his police interviews and trial? Bearing in mind Chief Sup Harris was the most senior officer at WHF on the morning of 7th Aug and had overall responsibility for the case intially?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 10, 2016, 08:59:20 PM
Yes it is possible that's why I included it above. But if he was lying why wasn't this picked up on during his police interviews and trial? Bearing in mind Chief Sup Harris was the most senior officer at WHF on the morning of 7th Aug and had overall responsibility for the case intially?
At a guess, I'd say because it wasn't considered relevant to either his guilt or innocence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 10, 2016, 09:27:29 PM
I know what it's like to get attached to a certain thing when looking through the evidence Holly. I've recently been wondering more about 'Crispy'....oh no... hear we go again, I hear everyone saying @)(++(* ... But could the grey hair found on the silencer have come from the dog? This hair was never tested as it got lost in transit. The dog was in the bedroom where the silencer was used. But also the dog slept in the kitchen by the Aga in a basket!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 10, 2016, 10:40:09 PM
Another question.... Was NB tied up? Looking at the photo that I believe is on here somewhere of NB face down after being killed, it looks like his hands are held by rope.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
I know what it's like to get attached to a certain thing when looking through the evidence Holly. I've recently been wondering more about 'Crispy'....oh no... hear we go again, I hear everyone saying @)(++(* ... But could the grey hair found on the silencer have come from the dog? This hair was never tested as it got lost in transit. The dog was in the bedroom where the silencer was used. But also the dog slept in the kitchen by the Aga in a basket!
Is that a polite way of telling me I'm obsessive 8)><(
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 12:23:31 AM
Another question.... Was NB tied up? Looking at the photo that I believe is on here somewhere of NB face down after being killed, it looks like his hands are held by rope.
None of the raid team or SoC officers make reference to this.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 12:33:19 AM
I know what it's like to get attached to a certain thing when looking through the evidence Holly. I've recently been wondering more about 'Crispy'....oh no... hear we go again, I hear everyone saying @)(++(* ... But could the grey hair found on the silencer have come from the dog? This hair was never tested as it got lost in transit. The dog was in the bedroom where the silencer was used. But also the dog slept in the kitchen by the Aga in a basket!
Yes a hair from Crispy is possible but the relatives didn't identify any hair attached when they found the silencer. Again unlike the poppies the hair was discussed at trial
I don't believe it has ever been illegal to grow opium poppies in the UK? They are recommended by the RHS. I believe June was a keen gardener so she may have been growing some in small area of a field which she then intended to transfer to the garden at WHF. However why would JB say the farm had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry?
If JB was lying why wasn't this brought up in his interviews/trial? Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris obviously thought it was relevant enough to make comment in WS's and other written testimony. Some have said it was to cause a distraction etc but much was made of JB's behaviour post murders from the moment he was told of the deaths to the time he was charged. Eg thinking of his deceased pet dog Brambles, who he was very fond of, to force himself to vomit; eating a cooked breakfast; letting out a "chuckle" etc so if he was lying about the opium poppies to cause a distraction etc why did this fall under the radar?
It doesn't appear the UK Gov issued licences until 2002. Maybe NB was granted some special licence for stock piling in the event of a war (morphine) or something similar? NB and June would be ideal candidates for anything secret with their WW2 backgrounds/security checks etc.
No comment from any of the farm employees or relatives about any opium poppies. Bearing in mind PE took over the running of the farm in the aftermath. If the plants were purchased through the business account then BW may have seen an invoice.
When the relatives went into WHF post murders much was made of a small piece of cannabis resin in the safe yet nothing about opium poppies if that's what they were.
MM had cannabis plants removed from his house by the police and sent for analysis. I haven't seen anything about opium poppies being removed from WHF and sent for analysis.
Of course it's always possible that for whatever reason(s) WHF was doing something illegal and it was kept hushed up. Seems unlikely but one just never knows.
I don't understand the significance of the poppies? Why would it be brought up at trial? They grew borage as well, but that wasn't mentioned either. The killings weren't drug related so like Myster and April, I'm not sure what difference it makes?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 11, 2016, 07:30:54 PM
But the hair was suspected of being on the silencer, in turn the silencer was on the gun that killed the family. So of course it would be bought up at the trial. Whereas, the poppies had nothing to do with the killings. This wasn't a trial about drugs and who maybe growing them, or for what reason, it was a murder trial
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 11, 2016, 08:04:45 PM
I don't understand the significance of the poppies? Why would it be brought up at trial? They grew borage as well, but that wasn't mentioned either. The killings weren't drug related so like Myster and April, I'm not sure what difference it makes?
Take a deep breath, Opal -is that your favourite stone?- it has been mooted that Jeremy's father is none other than a man in a very high position who got one of his maids pregnant and married her off to another man who said he was the child's father but then had him adopted. Because of this Special Branch have monitored the Bamber family from that time on. Somewhere down the line Drugs Squad also kept an eye on them. This MAY be why the poppies appear to have taken on a life lof their own.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 11, 2016, 10:14:09 PM
Take a deep breath, Opal -is that your favourite stone?- it has been mooted that Jeremy's father is none other than a man in a very high position who got one of his maids pregnant and married her off to another man who said he was the child's father but then had him adopted. Because of this Special Branch have monitored the Bamber family from that time on. Somewhere down the line Drugs Squad also kept an eye on them. This MAY be why the poppies appear to have taken on a life lof their own.
@)(++(* I expect 'Crispy' was a sniffer dog at some point as well.
April.....Opal is my birthstone.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 10:38:56 PM
I don't understand the significance of the poppies? Why would it be brought up at trial? They grew borage as well, but that wasn't mentioned either. The killings weren't drug related so like Myster and April, I'm not sure what difference it makes?
As we've both said it appears the UK government first issued licences to UK farmers to grow opium poppies in the noughties. JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. You and others have suggested JB lied. If JB lied I would have expected this to be revealed during the course of the investigation and used against JB at trial; it wasn't.
The difference between borage and opium poppies is that opium poppies are the source of powerful drugs: heroin, methadone and morphine. As such a licence is required to cultivate them. Borage is a herb and is cultivated for culinary and medicinal (herbal remedies) uses.
I agree there's no evidence the murders (suicide?) were drug related.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 11:39:48 PM
But the hair was suspected of being on the silencer, in turn the silencer was on the gun that killed the family. So of course it would be bought up at the trial. Whereas, the poppies had nothing to do with the killings. This wasn't a trial about drugs and who maybe growing them, or for what reason, it was a murder trial
Yes I agree about the hair. And the poppies had nothing to do with the murders (suicide ?) per se but if JB lied about the licence then this was potentally relevant to the investigation and trial.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 11, 2016, 11:57:17 PM
Take a deep breath, Opal -is that your favourite stone?- it has been mooted that Jeremy's father is none other than a man in a very high position who got one of his maids pregnant and married her off to another man who said he was the child's father but then had him adopted. Because of this Special Branch have monitored the Bamber family from that time on. Somewhere down the line Drugs Squad also kept an eye on them. This MAY be why the poppies appear to have taken on a life lof their own.
The Bamber board on this forum deals in facts. We leave the stuff of fantasies to Mike/Blue.
The poppies are an interesting feature of the case:
- JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry - It appears the UK government issued the first licences in the early noughties - If JB lied then I would expect this to be revealed during the course of the investigation
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 13, 2016, 06:09:52 AM
Where is it mentioned in any statement that the poppies were grown for pharmaceuticals?
I was munching on a granary bread sandwich yesterday and wondered what type of seeds it was made with. Looked for the ingredients on the packet - contains seeds of Sunflower, Pumpkin, Linseed, Poppy and Millet.
Maybe the WHF poppy heads were grown for their seeds alone to supply breadmakers/confectioners, rather than for morphine... hence the licence to grow in '85 when whole foods were becoming popular?
Appears that only the Opium poppy is used for such...
Where is it mentioned in any statement that the poppies were grown for pharmaceuticals?
I was munching on a granary bread sandwich yesterday and wondered what type of seeds it was made with. Looked for the ingredients on the packet - contains seeds of Sunflower, Pumpkin, Linseed, Poppy and Millet.
Maybe the WHF poppy heads were grown for their seeds alone to supply breadmakers/confectioners, rather than for morphine... hence the licence to grow in '85 when whole foods were becoming popular?
Appears that only the Opium poppy is used for such...
Interesting point, Myster, and of course, bragging that they were allowed to grow opium poppies, in his mind, may have elevated him rather higher than saying they were being grown for nutritional value.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 13, 2016, 01:22:11 PM
Where is it mentioned in any statement that the poppies were grown for pharmaceuticals?
I was munching on a granary bread sandwich yesterday and wondered what type of seeds it was made with. Looked for the ingredients on the packet - contains seeds of Sunflower, Pumpkin, Linseed, Poppy and Millet.
Maybe the WHF poppy heads were grown for their seeds alone to supply breadmakers/confectioners, rather than for morphine... hence the licence to grow in '85 when whole foods were becoming popular?
Appears that only the Opium poppy is used for such...
This was discussed earlier on in the thread. Two sources:
Page 179 CAL's book:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Ian Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
Chief Sup George Harris WS:
"He [Dr Ian Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was especially licensed to grow the opium poppy, which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
I have just made myself an orange marmalade ham sarnie using using a Warburtons seeded batch: "Contains a delicious blend of sesame, sunflower, millet, linseed and poppy seeds" and yes poppy seeds are from the opium poppy but this doesn't expain the above?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 13, 2016, 01:37:59 PM
Interesting point, Myster, and of course, bragging that they were allowed to grow opium poppies, in his mind, may have elevated him rather higher than saying they were being grown for nutritional value.
The hub of JB's trial (probably similar to most criminal trials) was whether or not he was being truthful eg:
- Did he receive a phone call from NB telling his SC was going crazy with a gun - Did he tell JM his intentions and plans to murder his family - Did he say to RWB 'Oh Uncle Bobby I could easily kill my parents' or whatever the exact words were - Did he say to JR "I hate my fcuking parents"
Etc, etc
If JB told Dr Craig on morning of 7th Aug WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies and it didn't then this would surely be strong evidence to show JB had a propensity towards lying and would be used against him at trial? Dr Craig was a trial witness. He was the person who was qualified to assess JB's emotional state in the immediate aftermath and confirmed him fit for interview on 7th Aug.
(Can I ask please if posters wish to discuss in detail the examples I've given above they either retrieve old relevant threads or start new ones. This thread is primarily to discuss the poppies. Thank you.)
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 13, 2016, 01:57:58 PM
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "The poppies in question, Papaver somniferum, can be grown without a licence. The extraction of the drugs is a complex industrial process and the people who work to produce the drugs have to be licensed.
"In addition, the Home Office receives information about where the poppy farmers are and how much they are growing from the pharmaceutical companies. We then send growers a letter that they are encouraged to show to local police to make them aware of their activities."
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 13, 2016, 02:43:53 PM
So it appears there might be some confusion here. Licences issued by the government seem to be for the pharmaceutical company rather than farmers. Farmers are then under contract with the pharmaceutical company to follow their instructions.
It appears the government issued the first licences in the early noughties but it doesn't appear there was anything preventing WHF farming the poppies for an overseas pharmaceutical company as I mentioned in an earlier post.
@ about 3.10 in, the following tells how UK farmers are under contract with the pharmaceutical company to keep opium poppy growing private.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZwRgtsAmxI
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 13, 2016, 03:05:24 PM
Dr Ian Craig and Chief Sup George Harris looked at the poppies growing in a small area of a field. I think the field must have been substantial and was used entirely for growing the poppies. It makes no sense for a pharmaceutical company to arrange for a farmer to grow a small number. If they wanted to experiment/trial they would surely have sufficient space/area on site? Or could find sufficient space/area without involving a third party/farmer?
I think it comes down to this, either WHF had some sort of legitimate contract with a government or pharmaceutical company here or overseas to grow opium poppies. Or there was something illegal going on which is obviously a reason not to want the police visiting WHF.
Is there anyone here who has had or continues to have contact with JB who is prepared to write and ask about the opium poppies?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: puglove on July 13, 2016, 10:53:41 PM
Dr Ian Craig and Chief Sup George Harris looked at the poppies growing in a small area of a field. I think the field must have been substantial and was used entirely for growing the poppies. It makes no sense for a pharmaceutical company to arrange for a farmer to grow a small number. If they wanted to experiment/trial they would surely have sufficient space/area on site? Or could find sufficient space/area without involving a third party/farmer?
I think it comes down to this, either WHF had some sort of legitimate contract with a government or pharmaceutical company here or overseas to grow opium poppies. Or there was something illegal going on which is obviously a reason not to want the police visiting WHF.
Is there anyone here who has had or continues to have contact with JB who is prepared to write and ask about the opium poppies?
Holl, maybe you could contact Troods and ask her about the poppies? I'm guessing that she's flavour of the month at the moment....at least until she has to tell him that the donations haven't exactly flooded in. 8)><(
And she could also ask him if threatening Crispy with June's bible was a regular occurrence?
Ho ho!! I bet it wasn't!!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: puglove on July 13, 2016, 11:08:01 PM
Holl, maybe you could contact Troods and ask her about the poppies? I'm guessing that she's flavour of the month at the moment....at least until she has to tell him that the donations haven't exactly flooded in. 8)><(
And she could also ask him if threatening Crispy with June's bible was a regular occurrence?
Ho ho!! I bet it wasn't!!
I noticed tonight that Mike said that when he perved...sorry, LOOKED through the window, he wouldn't have been able to see Ralph's body.
a) Myster has proved that Ralph's body was clearly visible from the window.
b) There aren't many policemen who are only 5ft 2.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 14, 2016, 07:18:30 PM
Holl, maybe you could contact Troods and ask her about the poppies? I'm guessing that she's flavour of the month at the moment....at least until she has to tell him that the donations haven't exactly flooded in. 8)><(
And she could also ask him if threatening Crispy with June's bible was a regular occurrence?
Ho ho!! I bet it wasn't!!
23 individuals signed up to JB's testimonial page 10k/23 = £434.78. If they feel that strongly surely these people could club together and raise the funds overnight.
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 14, 2016, 07:47:31 PM
Page 179 CAL's book:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Ian Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
Chief Sup George Harris WS:
"He [Dr Ian Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was especially licensed to grow the opium poppy, which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
As far as I'm aware the above are the only references to the poppies.
I would like to know if Chief Sup Harris carried out any enquiries following JB's/Dr Craig's claims of a special licence for opium poppies.
On the morning of 7th Aug Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones left WHF, together I believe, to travel to the main post office in Chelmsford for a pre-arranged meeting. A car journey of some 30 mins. Were the poppies discussed en route and subsequently investigated?
DCI Jones remained convinced he was dealing with a case of murder/suicide up until his untimely death as a result of a domestic accident during May 1986.
Chief Sup Harris, despite being the most senior officer at WHF on morning of 7th Aug, has remained silent over the years. It's clear he was initially satisfied with the case being murder/suicide.
As I said in an earlier post if the 'poppies' were opium poppies and NB called JB, as he continues to claim, this could be the reason NB was reluctant to call/involve the police.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 14, 2016, 09:20:36 PM
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Ian Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
Chief Sup George Harris WS:
"He [Dr Ian Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was especially licensed to grow the opium poppy, which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
As far as I'm aware the above are the only references to the poppies.
I would like to know if Chief Sup Harris carried out any enquiries following JB's/Dr Craig's claims of a special licence for opium poppies.
On the morning of 7th Aug Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones left WHF, together I believe, to travel to the main post office in Chelmsford for a pre-arranged meeting. A car journey of some 30 mins. Were the poppies discussed en route and subsequently investigated?
DCI Jones remained convinced he was dealing with a case of murder/suicide up until his untimely death as a result of a domestic accident during May 1986.
Chief Sup Harris, despite being the most senior officer at WHF on morning of 7th Aug, has remained silent over the years. It's clear he was initially satisfied with the case being murder/suicide.
As I said in an earlier post if the 'poppies' were opium poppies and NB called JB, as he continues to claim, this could be the reason NB was reluctant to call/involve the police.
I think you are really grasping at straws with this one. There is no way that NB would be growing anything illegal and even less likely that if he thought his life and the life of his family were at risk, his first thought would be a field full of poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 14, 2016, 09:23:19 PM
23 individuals signed up to JB's testimonial page 10k/23 = £434.78. If they feel that strongly surely these people could club together and raise the funds overnight.
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/
They obviously aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is. They can't be that certain that he's innocent.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 14, 2016, 11:20:35 PM
I think you are really grasping at straws with this one. There is no way that NB would be growing anything illegal and even less likely that if he thought his life and the life of his family were at risk, his first thought would be a field full of poppies.
Would that be poppy straws? 8)--))
And you know this for a fact?
The possibilities are many eg NB was being blackmailed or threatened.
BW said she thought NB looked worried pre tragedy and according to her NB feared he might be shot.
What have we got? The most senior officer at WHF on morning of 7th Aug, Chief Sup Harris, making reference to opium poppies and a special licence in his WS... &%+((£
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 15, 2016, 11:52:21 AM
The possibilities are many eg NB was being blackmailed or threatened.
BW said she thought NB looked worried pre tragedy and according to her NB feared he might be shot.
What have we got? The most senior officer at WHF on morning of 7th Aug, Chief Sup Harris, making reference to opium poppies and a special licence in his WS... &%+((£
Holly, this is starting to sound like one of Mike's theories. I'm not surprised Nevill was worried, it's more likely that he found out about who robbed Osea, that would be enough to worry anyone.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 15, 2016, 12:42:12 PM
Holly, this is starting to sound like one of Mike's theories. I'm not surprised Nevill was worried, it's more likely that he found out about who robbed Osea, that would be enough to worry anyone.
Why are my posts about the opium poppies and special licence based on written testimony from Dr Ian Craig and Chief Sup George Harris sounding like one of Mike's theories?
If NB was genuinely worried pre tragedy, as described by BW, there could be many reasons.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 15, 2016, 01:00:36 PM
Nope, only one... he thought someone, i.e. Jeremy, was going to shoot him...
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 15, 2016, 06:09:56 PM
Nevill Bamber would never have gone against the law! He was a magistrate for goodness sake! Like it or not, magistrates do have principles. JB was a thorn in his side, always bucking the system, yet still NB stood by him. There is no way NB would have planted a....all but small...field of Poppies unless it was approved by law. NB was against any form of drugs, even sending his nephew packing from WHF when he found he was using cannabis, then locking the cannabis into his Safe in his office, only for JB to imply to A E that this cannabis was NB's by saying "they would find a surprise when they looked into the Safe" after the murders. ( This also tells us that JB had been looking in the Safe himself hence BW's statement saying NB wanted to change the hiding place of the Safe key! ) The same thing applies when JB told Dr Craig they had a licence to grow opium poppies even though it appears they weren't duty bound to send a letter to confirm this. JB could well have only mentioned the poppies because he had picked some himself...probably to make him sick...therefore covering the reason he picked them in the first place. The whole point of DS Harris Statement was to confirm his movements on the morning after the murder. Speaking to Dr Craig about the poppies was part of his explanation of his movements....We went ( Dr Craig and DS Harris ) to look at small area in a field to the right hand side of Pages Lane. We returned to the farm gateway where Dr Craig remained whilst I returned to the back of the house and spoke to DCI Jones regarding arrangements being made to interview JB". No mention about the poppies. Dr Craig did mention earlier that JB bent over and looked like he was being sick.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: rotti on July 15, 2016, 11:11:33 PM
Nevill Bamber would never have gone against the law! He was a magistrate for goodness sake! Like it or not, magistrates do have principles. JB was a thorn in his side, always bucking the system, yet still NB stood by him. There is no way NB would have planted a....all but small...field of Poppies unless it was approved by law. NB was against any form of drugs, even sending his nephew packing from WHF when he found he was using cannabis, then locking the cannabis into his Safe in his office, only for JB to imply to A E that this cannabis was NB's by saying "they would find a surprise when they looked into the Safe" after the murders. ( This also tells us that JB had been looking in the Safe himself hence BW's statement saying NB wanted to change the hiding place of the Safe key! ) The same thing applies when JB told Dr Craig they had a licence to grow opium poppies even though it appears they weren't duty bound to send a letter to confirm this. JB could well have only mentioned the poppies because he had picked some himself...probably to make him sick...therefore covering the reason he picked them in the first place. The whole point of DS Harris Statement was to confirm his movements on the morning after the murder. Speaking to Dr Craig about the poppies was part of his explanation of his movements....We went ( Dr Craig and DS Harris ) to look at small area in a field to the right hand side of Pages Lane. We returned to the farm gateway where Dr Craig remained whilst I returned to the back of the house and spoke to DCI Jones regarding arrangements being made to interview JB". No mention about the poppies. Dr Craig did mention earlier that JB bent over and looked like he was being sick.
very interesting ,opal &%+((£
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 16, 2016, 12:47:04 AM
Nevill Bamber would never have gone against the law! He was a magistrate for goodness sake! Like it or not, magistrates do have principles. JB was a thorn in his side, always bucking the system, yet still NB stood by him. There is no way NB would have planted a....all but small...field of Poppies unless it was approved by law. NB was against any form of drugs, even sending his nephew packing from WHF when he found he was using cannabis, then locking the cannabis into his Safe in his office, only for JB to imply to A E that this cannabis was NB's by saying "they would find a surprise when they looked into the Safe" after the murders. ( This also tells us that JB had been looking in the Safe himself hence BW's statement saying NB wanted to change the hiding place of the Safe key! ) The same thing applies when JB told Dr Craig they had a licence to grow opium poppies even though it appears they weren't duty bound to send a letter to confirm this. JB could well have only mentioned the poppies because he had picked some himself...probably to make him sick...therefore covering the reason he picked them in the first place. The whole point of DS Harris Statement was to confirm his movements on the morning after the murder. Speaking to Dr Craig about the poppies was part of his explanation of his movements....We went ( Dr Craig and DS Harris ) to look at small area in a field to the right hand side of Pages Lane. We returned to the farm gateway where Dr Craig remained whilst I returned to the back of the house and spoke to DCI Jones regarding arrangements being made to interview JB". No mention about the poppies. Dr Craig did mention earlier that JB bent over and looked like he was being sick.
Most of us have principles. Is there any evidence showing magistrates are more principled than non-magistrates?
I haven't heard a bad word said against NB. And I agree it seems unlikely he would be involved in any sort of wrongdoing but a good police investigation surely keeps an open mind and doesn't rule anything or anyone in or out until the matter has been thoroughly investigated? Over the last few years we have witnessed wrongdoing and incompetence on a grand scale in places we would not expect: banking, Iraq war, child sex abuse by clergy, Harold Shipman, Jimmy Savile to name but a few examples. One of the reasons given for how these events occurred was that too few people challenged the status quo.
I doubt the cannabis found in the safe belonged to Roland Pargeter. The Bambers had RP staying with them during 1973 in an attempt to rid him of hide cannabis habit. Why would NB keep a small piece of cannabis in his safe for 12 years? He would surely destroy it?
It comes down to this: written testimony exists from a medical doctor and police chief superintendent, both highly experienced, that WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies based on what they were told by JB and observing the poppies in situ. If this was found not to be the case why wasn't JB interviewed about it and why wasn't it used against him at trial? If the police didn't investigate this, why not? JB agreed to EP destroying the carpets at their suggestion. As far as I'm aware this didn't extend to the opium poppies?
MM's property was searched and his cannabis plants sent for analysis. I would expect EP to ask to see the special licence, check out who issued it and confirm all was in order and send the plants for analysis.
Chief Sup Harris did make reference to the opium poppies in his witness statement.
"He [Dr Craig] asked if I knew the farm was specially licenced to grow opium poppies, which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse."
Small area doesn't mean a small number of poppies. The whole field could be filled with opium poppies with Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looking at a small area.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 16, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Why are my posts about the opium poppies and special licence based on written testimony from Dr Ian Craig and Chief Sup George Harris sounding like one of Mike's theories?
If NB was genuinely worried pre tragedy, as described by BW, there could be many reasons.
So why are you ignoring the obvious in favour of him growing illegal opium. By your own words, you stated that Jeremy told the police Nevill had a licence. How do you know they didn't look into it and found that 'Nevill had a licence'? Just because the evidence of things isn't posted on the forums, doesn't mean such aspects weren't considered and investigated.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 16, 2016, 01:56:28 PM
So why are you ignoring the obvious in favour of him growing illegal opium. By your own words, you stated that Jeremy told the police Nevill had a licence. How do you know they didn't look into it and found that 'Nevill had a licence'? Just because the evidence of things isn't posted on the forums, doesn't mean such aspects weren't considered and investigated.
What is the obvious? I don't believe there's an obvious without knowledge of an investigation and an outcome.
It isn't illegal for a farmer to grow opium poppies. You or I could go out today and purchase some from a garden centre for growing in the garden. The law states a licence is not required for cultivation of poppies ie a farmer growing. A licence is required by the pharmaceutical company wishing to extract opium for medicinal products. Johnson Matthey plc and its subsidiary companies (MacFarlan Smith being one) have a monopoly in the UK. Farmers cultivate and Johnson Matthey send in a special combine to extract and transport. The UK government issued the first licence in the noughties some 15 plus years after the tragedy at WHF.
I don't believe I'm ignoring anything. I've put forward as many reasons as I can think of including JB lying.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 16, 2016, 02:56:44 PM
What is the obvious? I don't believe there's an obvious without knowledge of an investigation and an outcome.
It isn't illegal for a farmer to grow opium poppies. You or I could go out today and purchase some from a garden centre for growing in the garden. The law states a licence is not required for cultivation of poppies ie a farmer growing. A licence is required by the pharmaceutical company wishing to extract opium for medicinal products. Johnson Matthey plc and its subsidiary companies (MacFarlan Smith being one) have a monopoly in the UK. Farmers cultivate and Johnson Matthey send in a special combine to extract and transport. The UK government issued the first licence in the noughties some 15 plus years after the tragedy at WHF.
I don't believe I'm ignoring anything. I've put forward as many reasons as I can think of including JB lying.
I think this was established right back at the beginning of the thread @)(++(* - Holly doesn't want to give up on it though. They clearly weren't opium poppies. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 16, 2016, 05:14:50 PM
I think this was established right back at the beginning of the thread @)(++(* - Holly doesn't want to give up on it though. They clearly weren't opium poppies. 8((()*/
There's lots of new info in the links Myster has provided about the history of opium poppy growing in the UK and processing by pharmaceutical company Johnson Matthey.
What don't I want to give up on?
Caroline I don't believe you are able to positively identify the plant species under question anymore than I can unless you have access to some privileged info. What makes you so sure they weren't opium poppies? There's some evidence opium poppies were grown at WHF. This in itself means nothing since it's perfectly legal to grow them.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 16, 2016, 05:24:11 PM
If the police found they were opium poppies and JB wasn't lying when he said this......who would they having prosecuted...should they wish to? It couldn't have been NB who was the tenant as he had just been murdered! JB had interests in Osea Road, but the farm was tenanted to NB and JB.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 16, 2016, 05:56:00 PM
If the police found they were opium poppies and JB wasn't lying when he said this......who would they having prosecuted...should they wish to? It couldn't have been NB who was the tenant as he had just been murdered! JB had interests in Osea Road, but the farm was tenanted to NB and JB.
Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies. NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays. But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 16, 2016, 06:57:38 PM
Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies. NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays. But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?
Because it had nothing to do with the crime, so why would it be mentioned? Yes, anyone can grown opium poppies but "but any processing of the plant to extract narcotic material is controlled and can only be carried out under licence." http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/2069434.Hampshire_____the_opium_poppy_capital_of_the_UK/
So if it isn't illegal to grow the poppies, why would this affect NB's decision to to call the police when "Sheila went crazy and got the gun"?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 16, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
My first poppy this year.
All round to my place for some dragon chasing ?>)()<
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: rotti on July 16, 2016, 07:30:34 PM
All round to my place for some dragon chasing ?>)()<
If the Afghans have the means and wherewithal to turn poppies into heroin I'm sure it's possible in Little Britain? I think I recall police raids on heroin factories/labs in UK?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 11:09:17 AM
Because it had nothing to do with the crime, so why would it be mentioned? Yes, anyone can grown opium poppies but "but any processing of the plant to extract narcotic material is controlled and can only be carried out under licence." http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/2069434.Hampshire_____the_opium_poppy_capital_of_the_UK/
So if it isn't illegal to grow the poppies, why would this affect NB's decision to to call the police when "Sheila went crazy and got the gun"?
It is case relevant. Upon being told his family had been murdered with SC taking her own life, one of JB's early responses was to walk 1/4 mile to the field where the claimed opium poppies were growing and pick some. When he was then seen by Dr Craig with the poppies in his hand he said the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. Based on what we now know this can't be true unless possibly they were for shipping overseas to a foreign pharmaceutical company. I've no idea what the rules, regulations and laws were then surrounding such a transaction. Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if he knew about the licence and he didn't.
Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies in a small area of the field. If there number was small eg own use for gardening display this would not fit with industrial scale production for the pharmaceutical industry and would immediately arouse suspicion.
I doubt UK farmers would grow opium poppies commercially for their seeds (bread) or flowers (gardening) alone as other crops are more profitable. As I understand it poppy seeds are a by-product when they're grown for medicines. So assuming the field contained a substantial number of opium poppies (industrial scale) who was the intended purchaser and what did they intend to use them for?
I'm happy to keep an open mind. I can live with ambiguity and it is certainly ambiguous:
- UK farmers didn't start growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry until the noughties.
- In 1985 JB said WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.
I accept JB might be lying but if he had just murdered his family why would he want to attract attention by knowingly making false claims about something that wasn't the focus of anyone's attention?
I can think of many possibilities as I have above about shipping but there's little point in speculating.
Is it possible you can write and ask him? I have to say, and I hope you will not be offended, to my mind the above is potentially more case relevant than the wallet you queried with him.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 17, 2016, 11:35:57 AM
It is case relevant. Upon being told his family had been murdered with SC taking her own life, one of JB's early responses was to walk 1/4 mile to the field where the claimed opium poppies were growing and pick some. When he was then seen by Dr Craig with the poppies in his hand he said the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. Based on what we now know this can't be true unless possibly they were for shipping overseas to a foreign pharmaceutical company. I've no idea what the rules, regulations and laws were then surrounding such a transaction. Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if he knew about the licence and he didn't.
Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies in a small area of the field. If there number was small eg own use for gardening display this would not fit with industrial scale production for the pharmaceutical industry and would immediately arouse suspicion.
I doubt UK farmers would grow opium poppies commercially for their seeds (bread) or flowers (gardening) alone as other crops are more profitable. As I understand it poppy seeds are a by-product when they're grown for medicines. So assuming the field contained a substantial number of opium poppies (industrial scale) who was the intended purchaser and what did they intend to use them for?
I'm happy to keep an open mind. I can live with ambiguity and it is certainly ambiguous:
- UK farmers didn't start growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry until the noughties.
- In 1985 JB said WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry.
I accept JB might be lying but if he had just murdered his family why would he want to attract attention by knowingly making false claims about something that wasn't the focus of anyone's attention?
I can think of many possibilities as I have above about shipping but there's little point in speculating.
Is it possible you can write and ask him? I have to say, and I hope you will not be offended, to my mind the above is potentially more case relevant than the wallet you queried with him.
I won't be writing to him Holly - I thought you wrote to him? The wallet is relevant because it is likely that he searched the house for ready cash - it was the first thing he looked for when re-entering WHF and was so annoyed that it was missing, he called the police and accused them of stealing it. The poppies are relevant because?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 17, 2016, 04:48:02 PM
Opal I'm obviously not making myself clear - it isn't illegal for anyone in UK, farmer or not, to grow opium poppies. NB could legitimately devote significant acreage to opium poppies to produce poppy seeds for culinary purposes or for use in ornamental garden displays. But JB said WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. Yes of course JB could have lied for whatever reason(s) but why didn't EP pick up on and use against JB at trial?
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on July 17, 2016, 05:47:29 PM
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
Opal, I'm always slightly cautious about from where/whom authors get some of their information -although I can vouch for the description of Nevill's personality because this is what friends of his have told me.
I'm really not convinced that Jeremy was natural farmer material given the amount of time he spent away from it when he could have been working on it. Nevill MAY have been pleased with how Jeremy "was shaping up" but relative to/compared with what, exactly? It may well be that a month after the massacre the farm was found "generally to be in good heart" but Jeremy wasn't at it's helm.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 17, 2016, 06:58:38 PM
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
There you have it then, no mystery about growing poppies covertly. It sounds as if Wilkes got his info from a reliable source.
Hardback: pages 38-39.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 08:25:40 PM
I won't be writing to him Holly - I thought you wrote to him? The wallet is relevant because it is likely that he searched the house for ready cash - it was the first thing he looked for when re-entering WHF and was so annoyed that it was missing, he called the police and accused them of stealing it. The poppies are relevant because?
I have written to JB in the past but not recently. I've never asked him much about his case as I don't believe he can help my understanding. I just wondered if you could write to him as I believe you said you asked him lots of case related questions. Maybe I will ask David as I understand he has had some contact with JB regarding his 'forensic breakthrough'.
JB wasn't interviewed about the wallet or poppies. They didn't form part of the prosecution or defence at trial and haven't been the subject of a CCRC application or CoA hearing. You believe the wallet is relevant and I believe the poppies are potentially relevant.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 08:45:33 PM
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
Thanks Opal.
But the above still doesn't account for JB's claim of a 'special licence' which the UK gov first issued to pharmaceutical companies in the noughties. &%+((£
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 08:59:04 PM
There you have it then, no mystery about growing poppies covertly. It sounds as if Wilkes got his info from a reliable source.
Hardback: pages 38-39.
I think it would be difficult to grow the opium poppies covertly on a commercial scale. I'm not sure of Wilkes source was it Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris or George Nicholls? Regardless it still doesn't account for JB's claims of a 'special licence' to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry, which we know the gov didn't issue until the early noughties.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 17, 2016, 09:16:44 PM
I think it would be difficult to grow the opium poppies covertly on a commercial scale. I'm not sure of Wilkes source was it Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris or George Nicholls? Regardless it still doesn't account for JB's claims of a 'special licence' to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry, which we know the gov didn't issue until the early noughties.
I reckon it was George Nicholls. As their surveyor he probably made inventories of crops the farm produced.
And governments don't always reveal everything to the public, which maybe the reason why there's nothing online about licences granted in the '80s.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 17, 2016, 09:18:06 PM
Opal, I'm always slightly cautious about from where/whom authors get some of their information -although I can vouch for the description of Nevill's personality because this is what friends of his have told me.
I'm really not convinced that Jeremy was natural farmer material given the amount of time he spent away from it when he could have been working on it. Nevill MAY have been pleased with how Jeremy "was shaping up" but relative to/compared with what, exactly? It may well be that a month after the massacre the farm was found "generally to be in good heart" but Jeremy wasn't at it's helm.
April, I don't think JB put as much into the farm as NB tells the surveyor either. I wonder if Nevill was saying this so that the farm could have been taken over by JB should the occasion arise at some point. After all this is what both June and Nevill had wanted all along. I've read about Tenant Farmers see below, and it appears that in 1976 under the Miscellaneous Provisions Act, security was extended to spouses and relatives of tenants for two successions....provided they had been earning the majority of their income from the holding for five years.
With this in mind I guess NB was just putting in a good word for JB. Not that he deserved it by any means!
The landmark 1948 Act was enacted at a time when war-time food rationing was still in force and sought to encourage long-term investment by tenants by granting them lifetime security of tenure. Under the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 security was extended to spouses and relatives of tenants for two successions, providing that they had been earning the majority of their income from the holding for five years. Succession rights were however withdrawn for new tenancies in 1984[9] and this was consolidated in the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986. These two statutes also laid down rules for the determination of rents by the arbitration process.[7][10]
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 10:09:05 PM
I reckon it was George Nicholls. As their surveyor he probably made inventories of crops the farm produced.
And governments don't always reveal everything to the public, which maybe the reason why there's nothing online about licences granted in the '80s.
Well I was satisfied the claim about opium poppies growing at WHF was correct. The fact George Nicholls, surveyor, might also have included in his paperwork doesn't doesn't really further anything?
George Nicholls:
http://www.kemsley.com/contact-us/chelmsford/
I posted this letter from the Home Office in an earlier post. It looks authentic. As you will see it is a request for info under FOI:
"Thank you for your email of 15 September 2011 in which you ask for information regarding the number of acres of UK farmland the Home Office has licensed for opium poppy production since 2001 and the number of acres the Home Office intends to license in the coming 5 years. Your request has been handled as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
The Home Office does not maintain the information you have requested. The activity of cultivating opium poppies (papaver somniferum) for medicinal use or any other use is not a licensable activity as prescribed in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971".
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2016, 10:25:15 PM
Bio for the surveyor, George Nicholls, who assessed WHF shortly before the tragedy:
http://www.kemsley.com/contact-us/chelmsford/
Kemsley opened its Chelmsford office in 1985, although GN might have worked elsewhere then. The current office doesn't seem to have much of a presence with the local farming community.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 18, 2016, 07:24:14 AM
Kemsley opened its Chelmsford office in 1985, although GN might have worked elsewhere then. The current office doesn't seem to have much of a presence with the local farming community.
GN might have been involved in setting up the Chelmsford branch from start, considering that he's now MD there.
How do you know that?
Agriculture
Agriculture Advice on rent reviews (Agricultural Holdings Act and Farm Business Tenancies) as well as other issues during or at the end of a tenancy. Valuation of rural properties, including farms with and without dwellings/buildings, glasshouses, horticultural premises, nurseries, garden centres and fishing lakes. We act in negotiations for purchasers and vendors of rural land.
GN might have been involved in setting up the Chelmsford branch from start, considering that he's now MD there.
How do you know that?
Agriculture
Agriculture Advice on rent reviews (Agricultural Holdings Act and Farm Business Tenancies) as well as other issues during or at the end of a tenancy. Valuation of rural properties, including farms with and without dwellings/buildings, glasshouses, horticultural premises, nurseries, garden centres and fishing lakes. We act in negotiations for purchasers and vendors of rural land.
In any event 31 years ago if a farmer said to a surveyor or the like he/she had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry I think this would be taken at face value. Today someone curious might get back to the office, do a bit of research online and ?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 18, 2016, 11:45:56 AM
I have written to JB in the past but not recently. I've never asked him much about his case as I don't believe he can help my understanding. I just wondered if you could write to him as I believe you said you asked him lots of case related questions. Maybe I will ask David as I understand he has had some contact with JB regarding his 'forensic breakthrough'.
JB wasn't interviewed about the wallet or poppies. They didn't form part of the prosecution or defence at trial and haven't been the subject of a CCRC application or CoA hearing. You believe the wallet is relevant and I believe the poppies are potentially relevant.
I believe that Jeremy's reluctance to answer the question I asked him - is relevant. When he did 'eventually' provide an answer, it was evasive and contradictory.
Plus, Jeremy being interested in the contents of the wallet, goes with the notion that he killed for gain, I'm not sure how the poppies would fit into any scenario?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 18, 2016, 12:21:05 PM
Yup... it's a load of poppycock.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 18, 2016, 01:01:08 PM
I believe that Jeremy's reluctance to answer the question I asked him - is relevant. When he did 'eventually' provide an answer, it was evasive and contradictory.
Plus, Jeremy being interested in the contents of the wallet, goes with the notion that he killed for gain, I'm not sure how the poppies would fit into any scenario?
Do you think this might have something to do with the fact that you were asking him nearly 3 decades after the event? Also, whether he's guilty or innocent, what impact has his long incarceration had on his mental state?
I can think of entirely innocent and plausible explanations for the wallet as I can for the opium poppies. I can also think of plausible explanations for the wallet and opium poppies which support the prosecution and defence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: rotti on July 18, 2016, 01:41:22 PM
Do you think this might have something to do with the fact that you were asking him nearly 3 decades after the event? Also, whether he's guilty or innocent, what impact has his long incarceration had on his mental state?
I can think of entirely innocent and plausible explanations for the wallet as I can for the opium poppies. I can also think of plausible explanations for the wallet and opium poppies which support the prosecution and defence.
still at least he still has a mental state.5 others are stone dead and will never get the chance 8(8-))
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 18, 2016, 03:17:41 PM
Do you think this might have something to do with the fact that you were asking him nearly 3 decades after the event? Also, whether he's guilty or innocent, what impact has his long incarceration had on his mental state?
I can think of entirely innocent and plausible explanations for the wallet as I can for the opium poppies. I can also think of plausible explanations for the wallet and opium poppies which support the prosecution and defence.
No, I don't - when you ask someone a question and they can't remember, they say so. Not that they remember what the answer is (evasively) but not the question, which was in the letter I had just written him. He used stalling tactics. There were several other questions that I asked in the same letter and he answered those with no problem. The event was the single most important event of his life - not something you're going to forget.
What are you 'plausible' explanation?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 18, 2016, 04:01:45 PM
still at least he still has a mental state.5 others are stone dead and will never get the chance 8(8-))
That's sadly true rotti but it doesn't detract from the fact, whether JB is guilty or innocent, that his long incarceration and Cat A status means he is unlikely to help posters further their understanding of his case. Eg it was obvious from the 'official' site that he didn't understand the science behind how a silencer works and subsonic bullets.
I've probably furthered my understanding of the case most by posting with Scipio. Even though I disagreed with many of his conclusions. He forced anyone who didn't want to end up looking very silly to up their game. He certainly led the way in aspects of the case that hadn't previously been touched on anywhere else.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 18, 2016, 04:13:21 PM
No, I don't - when you ask someone a question and they can't remember, they say so. Not that they remember what the answer is (evasively) but not the question, which was in the letter I had just written him. He used stalling tactics. There were several other questions that I asked in the same letter and he answered those with no problem. The event was the single most important event of his life - not something you're going to forget.
What are you 'plausible' explanation?
Well I'm obviously not privy to your personal correspondence with JB so I'm not really in a position to comment.
For the opium poppies or wallet?
It ain't half hot. Sunbathing naked 8(>((. Bet you wish you were here 8(0(*
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 18, 2016, 07:13:26 PM
I'll meet you on Brighton Beach tomorrow, and we can take some hot selfies...
Then I hope the Brighton beach, allocated to those who like it to all hang out, is kinder on the bum than the beach used by those who prefer to keep it confined 8(0(* 8(>((
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 08:44:23 AM
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
I know next to nothing about alternative medicines/herbal remedies but it appears the government regulates the industry. No idea what the position was in 1985.
The following is a list of herbal medicines currently holding a traditional herbal registration (THR) granted by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA).
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 09:21:25 AM
Poppycock? Maybe.
Alternatively there may have been some serious wrongdoing at WHF. If so who would present the greatest fear: the police visiting or, if involved, a drug cartel?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 09:51:13 AM
Just remembered, the scientific name for the opium poppy is Papaver Somniferum.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 19, 2016, 11:27:39 AM
As I said before Holly....JB may not have been lying, I also mentioned in a post it isn't illegal to grow opium poppies.
I've found the following in Roger Wilkes book 'Blood Relations'.... Chapter 3 page 51
'Nevill Bamber was a shrewd and adventurous farmer. Anticipating a decline in the market for traditional cereals because of over- production, he was the first in the Blackwater area to see the potential of experimental crops such as borage,evening primrose, fenugreek and even opium poppies for use in alternative medicine preparations. This innovative streak was the subject of much approving comment. George Nichollls, a surveyor from Witham who carried out the annual valuation of the farm and it's contents for tax purposes, thought it augured well for the future. He described Nevill as 'a happy and considerate gentleman'. When he visited the farm in June 1985 to discuss a rent review, Nevill told him how pleased he was with the way Jeremy was shaping up as a farmer. Indeed, when - a month after the murders - Nicholls visited the White House to make his annual valuation and stock take, he found the farm generally to be in good heart'.
JB also states - page 53 Blood Relations - Farming is very much a feel. It's experience with each field, and luck with the weather. I was happy to be Dad's understudy. It worked really well. We both had progressive ideas about diversifying our crop portfolio.
Sounds like all was above board with the opium poppies, and with all concerned. Hope this helps.
Although author Roger Wilkes described NB as a "shrewd and adventurous farmer" with an "innovative streak" it doesn't appear that the "experimental crops" took off other than borage.
The following is a gov report showing the statistical breakdown for livestock, crops and other produce as at Jun 2015 produced by farmers. NB's experimental crops included:
Not a cloud in the sky - I'll post a picture for you and show you how grim it is here 8((()*/
Oh please include a selfie complete with bikini for Myster of course not me 8(0(*
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 05:28:38 PM
CAL Page 137:
"Her [AE] parents returned with June and Nevill to White House Farm afterwards. The men went off to inspect the borage field while the two sisters strolled about the garden before sitting down for coffee.
Source: PB WS 16th Sep 85.
So no inspecting of the opium poppies &%+((£
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Myster on July 19, 2016, 05:53:10 PM
"Her [AE] parents returned with June and Nevill to White House Farm afterwards. The men went off to inspect the borage field while the two sisters strolled about the garden before sitting down for coffee.
Source: PB WS 16th Sep 85.
So no inspecting of the opium poppies &%+((£
The 18th July might have been too early for opium poppies to be in flower. I know nothing about borage other than it's supposed to "be good for" PMS and hot flushes.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 19, 2016, 07:30:45 PM
The 18th July might have been too early for opium poppies to be in flower. I know nothing about borage other than it's supposed to "be good for" PMS and hot flushes.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 19, 2016, 07:46:45 PM
Of course JB could have just picked the poppies in Remembrance of his family.....perhaps not!
The opium poppy and corn poppy are symbols, respectively, of sleep and death. In Great Britain, Canada, the United States, and Australia the corn poppy is worn in remembrance of World War I.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 08:48:41 PM
The 18th July might have been too early for opium poppies to be in flower. I know nothing about borage other than it's supposed to "be good for" PMS and hot flushes.
I thought that was evening primrose?
Borage apparently is the little star flower used to garnish desserts and pimms.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 08:52:18 PM
Looks like it covers the menopause too. Quite versatile!
... also cures coughs, colds, sore throats and pimples on your xxxxx xxxx. I think most herbals are a big jimmick and money-spinners for quacks and mountebanks... like "Fennings Little Healers" were at one time.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 09:13:23 PM
Of course JB could have just picked the poppies in Remembrance of his family.....perhaps not!
The opium poppy and corn poppy are symbols, respectively, of sleep and death. In Great Britain, Canada, the United States, and Australia the corn poppy is worn in remembrance of World War I.
Yes that's true but it still doesn't cover JB's claims of a "special licence for the pharmaceutical industry".
The most benign explanation I can come up with is that NB was known to like practical jokes/winding up. JB strikes me as a bit on the dim side and a bit gullible/naive. NB might have strung JB along with a tale involving a special licence.
Alternatively if there was any wrongdoing JB might have been in on it or kept in the dark but had suspicions. By claiming the farm had a "special licence for the pharmaceutical industry" he might have been attempting to pre-empt further questions. At some stage from receiving the claimed call from NB to learning what had happened he might well have understood why NB didn't call the police. Whether JB was in on it, or suspected, it might (lots of mights) be the reason JB dithered phoning the police.
Off to sweat some more on a treadmill 8)><(. I look forward to the above being shot down in flames ?>)()<
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 19, 2016, 09:18:59 PM
... also cures coughs, colds, sore throats and pimples on your xxxxx xxxx. I think most herbals are a big jimmick and money-spinners for quacks and mountebanks... like "Fennings Little Healers" were at one time.
Yes I agree not my thing. I guess I'm lucky to have good health and rarely suffer any ailments. But I guess for those that suffer with chronic conditions it might be worth looking into.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 19, 2016, 10:45:00 PM
Yes that's true but it still doesn't cover JB's claims of a "special licence for the pharmaceutical industry".
The most benign explanation I can come up with is that NB was known to like practical jokes/winding up. JB strikes me as a bit on the dim side and a bit gullible/naive. NB might have strung JB along with a tale involving a special licence.
Alternatively if there was any wrongdoing JB might have been in on it or kept in the dark but had suspicions. By claiming the farm had a "special licence for the pharmaceutical industry" he might have been attempting to pre-empt further questions. At some stage from receiving the claimed call from NB to learning what had happened he might well have understood why NB didn't call the police. Whether JB was in on it, or suspected, it might (lots of mights) be the reason JB dithered phoning the police.
In 1975 we joined the EU.....The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is the agricultural policy of the European Union. It implements a system of agricultural subsidies and other programmes. It was introduced in 1962 and has undergone several changes since then to reduce the cost (from 71% of the EU budget in 1984 to 39% in 2013) and to also consider rural development in its aims. Farmers like NB would have looked into receiving agricultural subsidies, in fact the current tenants still do benefit...nothing wrong with that! The thing is I think NB decided to grow new and different plants/herbs such as opium poppies for medicinal purposes with the help of CAP through his own foresightedness. Nothing to do with anything underhand, NB was simply looking after his business as best he could.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 20, 2016, 12:22:53 AM
In 1975 we joined the EU.....The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is the agricultural policy of the European Union. It implements a system of agricultural subsidies and other programmes. It was introduced in 1962 and has undergone several changes since then to reduce the cost (from 71% of the EU budget in 1984 to 39% in 2013) and to also consider rural development in its aims. Farmers like NB would have looked into receiving agricultural subsidies, in fact the current tenants still do benefit...nothing wrong with that! The thing is I think NB decided to grow new and different plants/herbs such as opium poppies for medicinal purposes with the help of CAP through his own foresightedness. Nothing to do with anything underhand, NB was simply looking after his business as best he could.
That's a blast from the past; I remember CAP from my business studies course. But the above still doesn't explain JB's claims of a "special licence". I posted a link to a UK gov list of banned substances for herbal remedies and opium poppy features on it. Admittedly that's 2015.
I've haven't seen any accounts for the farm to have any idea of profits. NB had to take out a substantial loan to conver his mother's house into flats. Sintro e's it can be advantageous to borrow for business to offset against tax but I can't see that would apply in this instance. So was the farm as profitable as we are led to believe?
I learned recently JB couldn't understand June donating to the church when the farm needed lots of money spent on it. I would have thought the trustees were responsible for the buildings etc so I'm not sire what was meant by this.
It's difficult to imagine NB being involved in any sort of wrongdoing but:
- He had the means to grow the opium poppies
- He may have had the wherewithal from his military days of spending time in hosital when he crashed his plane eg morphine. Maybe they had crude labs in the field . Plus agricultural college. It's not as simple as extracting the opium from the poppy and away you go. The process is quite complicated and requires another chemical which might be difficult to procure.
- As a magistrate he had access to criminals and those involved with drugs.
I appreciate the above is a bit sensitive so if anyone is offended please say and I'll Remove it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: rotti on July 20, 2016, 01:05:51 PM
That's a blast from the past; I remember CAP from my business studies course. But the above still doesn't explain JB's claims of a "special licence". I posted a link to a UK gov list of banned substances for herbal remedies and opium poppy features on it. Admittedly that's 2015.
I've haven't seen any accounts for the farm to have any idea of profits. NB had to take out a substantial loan to conver his mother's house into flats. Sintro e's it can be advantageous to borrow for business to offset against tax but I can't see that would apply in this instance. So was the farm as profitable as we are led to believe?
I learned recently JB couldn't understand June donating to the church when the farm needed lots of money spent on it. I would have thought the trustees were responsible for the buildings etc so I'm not sire what was meant by this.
It's difficult to imagine NB being involved in any sort of wrongdoing but:
- He had the means to grow the opium poppies
- He may have had the wherewithal from his military days of spending time in hosital when he crashed his plane eg morphine. Maybe they had crude labs in the field . Plus agricultural college. It's not as simple as extracting the opium from the poppy and away you go. The process is quite complicated and requires another chemical which might be difficult to procure.
- As a magistrate he had access to criminals and those involved with drugs.
I appreciate the above is a bit sensitive so if anyone is offended please say and I'll Remove it.
i think the process is they cut vertical lines on the poppy head while it still growing ,than collect the sap oozing from the cuts and dry it &%+((£
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 20, 2016, 04:32:37 PM
i think the process is they cut vertical lines on the poppy head while it still growing ,than collect the sap oozing from the cuts and dry it &%+((£
Yes that's phase 1. I've found different methods on the web. Here's one which outlines the steps and provides a couple of tables listing the equipment and chemicals required. Apparently acetic anhydride is difficult to obtain. Right off to the kitchen for a spot of cooking ?>)()<
That's a blast from the past; I remember CAP from my business studies course. But the above still doesn't explain JB's claims of a "special licence". I posted a link to a UK gov list of banned substances for herbal remedies and opium poppy features on it. Admittedly that's 2015. The 'special licence' JB spoke of could have been to do with 'The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The only part of the poppy that had to be licensed under this act was the poppy straw, but I think you've covered that already. No other part of the poppy needed a license at this time. Schedule II (Part IV)of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971
I've haven't seen any accounts for the farm to have any idea of profits. NB had to take out a substantial loan to conver his mother's house into flats. Sintro e's it can be advantageous to borrow for business to offset against tax but I can't see that would apply in this instance. So was the farm as profitable as we are led to believe? The conversion of Clifton House into flats came about at the time of death of NB's mother 1981 The inheritance from the house was to include NB's sister's children Anthony Pargeter and Jackie Wood. NB was more than generous to both of them by not only giving them both 25% each instead of 25% between them but also lending them both money to cover there part of the conversion. On completion of the flats, NB wanted to lease out just 2 of the flats,( probably to pay back the bank loan) but in the end all 5 flats were sold on a 99 year So NB was not in financial difficulty at the time of the murders I learned recently JB couldn't understand June donating to the church when the farm needed lots of money spent on it. I would have thought the trustees were responsible for the buildings etc so I'm not sire what was meant by this. Typical JB....why give money away when I can benefit from it, nothing to do with the farm. Instead of worrying about his mother donating money to the church JB could have helped by not robbing Osea Farm Shop
It's difficult to imagine NB being involved in any sort of wrongdoing but:
- He had the means to grow the opium poppies As did other farmers it was an experimental venture owing to too much cereal being produce
- He may have had the wherewithal from his military days of spending time in hosital when he crashed his plane eg morphine. I can't see that NB realised opium poppies produced morphine, and so then later thought he'd grow some as well. The farm was a business and profit could be made by trying out an experimental plant, this is why there was only a small field of poppies. Maybe they had crude labs in the field . And the police or farm workers didn't know or find out about this? Plus agricultural college. It's not as simple as extracting the opium from the poppy and away you go. The process is quite complicated and requires another chemical which might be difficult to procure. Once harvested, the pharmaceutical companies took over.
- As a magistrate he had access to criminals and those involved with drugs.Being a magistrate NB would keep well above the law, and he was known as a fair and upstanding person by all who knew him.
I appreciate the above is a bit sensitive so if anyone is offended please say and I'll Remove it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 03:54:06 PM
I don't believe a licence is required to grow any part of the opium poppy. I assume the reason for this is that until the opium is extracted and processed into POM or heroin they are benign eg culinary and ornamental. The process is fairly complicated and requires knowledge and other chemicals which are not widely available. Conversely it is illegal to grow cannabis plants. I assume because they have no benign purpose. The reason they are grown is to produce cannabis which is illegal and it is simple to convert the plant for use eg smoking.
I am not suggesting WHF was in financial difficulty. It is often said it was very profitable but I haven't seen the accounts to know whether it was or it wasn't. I was just pointing out NB was not cash rich as he had a 120k bank overdraft at the time of his death. This was cleared by selling two of the flats. Mind you 31 years ago 120k was a lot of cash which other than the extremely wealthy most were unlikely to have sitting around in a bank account. NB also purchased 48.5 acres at Little Renters. He payed £2,000 per acre so a total of £97,000. June contributed £25,000 cash and NB took out a loan of £72,000 to cover the remainder but according to JB this had almost been paid for at the time of NB's death. This loan might have qualified for tax relief against loan payments so there might have been some benefit of taking out a loan even if the cash was available.
I have read the above in WS's but sometimes it's easier to quote CAL who I think we all agree is a reliable source as all her claims are backed up with WS's etc: Pages 101 and 102.
Page 101 of CAL:
"Profits had risen considerably due to the crop diversity, including cultivation of plants for the pharmaceutical companies". &%+((£
JB was interviwed about his concerns about June leaving her estate to charity. I think ? MM said something along those lines too? However CAL Page 288, interview with BC, apparently JB was unhappy about June giving her money out of income to the church as opposed to leaving any or all of her estate to the church. The reason being that "the farm needed so much". Please bear in mind that June suffered mental illness and delusions surrounding her religious beliefs. If June was giving away substantial amounts of her income to the church at the expense of the upkeep of the farm was this in the farms interest?
The opium poppies were unlikely to be eligible for EU subsidies. From all the info available online it doesn't appear there's any history of UK farmers exporting opium poppies overseas for pharmaceutical companies. If indeed it was legal to do so. We know for a fact opium poppy production for the pharmaceutical industry didn't go live in this country until 2006.
Yes other farmers could have legally grown opium poppies for seeds or ornamental purposes but was this profitable. When I said NB had the means to grow opium poppies I was meaning most individuals do not have available land to grow opium poppies on a large scale.
I think most people realise opium poppies produce morphine (and heroin)? The world's main grower of opium poppies is Afghanistan. Due to the many conflicts in that country it is often in the papers and on the news.
We don't know there was only a small field. All we know is that Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at a small area of a field where the opium poppies were growing. This could mean the poppies were restricted to a small area or they looked at a small area as opposed to a full scale perimeter of the field which was full of opium poppies.
When I mentioned crude labs in fields I was meaning NB's experience during WW2 not crude labs on Bamber owned property.
Today the farmers responsibility ends with planting and maintaining the opium poppies until harvesting. At the point the poppies are ready for harvesting the pharmaceutical company sends in its own people and equipment to harvest and remove. But that's today. Legal growing and harvesting of opium poppies for the pharamacutical industry only went live in the UK during 2006.
Yes NB was known as a 'pillar of society' and I agree based on all written accounts etc it is difficult to comprehend him being involved in anything illegal but I can't account for a "special licence" for growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry so I will be keeping an open mind as to what it was all about.
Many upholders of the law end up in jail eg police officers and judges.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2016, 07:14:35 PM
Yes NB was known as a 'pillar of society' and I agree based on all written accounts etc it is difficult to comprehend him being involved in anything illegal but I can't account for a "special licence" for growing opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry so I will be keeping an open mind as to what it was all about.
Many upholders of the law end up in jail eg police officers and judges.
I can, Jeremy was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 07:40:19 PM
I can, Jeremy was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting.
JB was questioned about everything from the time he claimed he received the phone call from NB to the time he cooked himself some breakfast. Why would interviewing officers miss out his claims of a "special licence" especially if they had reason to believe he was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting as you claim?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2016, 08:26:19 PM
JB was questioned about everything from the time he claimed he received the phone call from NB to the time he cooked himself some breakfast. Why would interviewing officers miss out his claims of a "special licence" especially if they had reason to believe he was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting as you claim?
Because it had nothing to do with the murders.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 08:37:57 PM
But if JB was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting this was something to do with the murders. Have you got any ideas why he wasn't questioned about this?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2016, 08:54:15 PM
But if JB was spinning a yarn to divert attention away from his ham acting this was something to do with the murders. Have you got any ideas why he wasn't questioned about this?
I suspect no one gave it a second thought. Had he been questioned, all he had to say was that's what he was told. No way to know that he was purposely lying.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 21, 2016, 08:58:14 PM
Thanks for your reply Holly. I can't find an account of why it was suspect to grow opium poppies with or without a 'special licence' in 1985
Many upholders of the law end up in jail eg police officers and judges. Yes, and thankfully a lot more Judges and Police send guilty people to prison.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 09:07:06 PM
I suspect no one gave it a second thought. Had he been questioned, all he had to say was that's what he was told. No way to know that he was purposely lying.
I would have thought a good place to start would be to ask him about the "special licence". Then take it from there.
We've no way of knowing whether or not he was purposely lying about many aspects of the case eg phone call from NB but it didn't stop him being questioned about it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 09:16:39 PM
Thanks for your reply Holly. I can't find an account of why it was suspect to grow opium poppies with or without a 'special licence' in 1985
Many upholders of the law end up in jail eg police officers and judges. Yes, and thankfully a lot more Judges and Police send guilty people to prison.
It's JB's claims of a "special licence" to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry that raise suspicions. The Home Office granted the first UK pharma company a licence for morphine production in 2006. There's lots of confirmation of this in the thread. I would recommend you have a little Google and check it out Opal. If I'm wrong I look forward to a slow burn when you shoot me down in flames ?>)()<
Most people whether they be upholders of the law or not are law abiding but I don't buy into the idea because someone is a magistrate and church warden that this is somehow confirmation that he/she would not break the law.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 21, 2016, 09:23:26 PM
I've long been fascinated by the role of Chief Sup George Harris in the investigation. He was the most senior officer at WHF on morning of 7th Aug and Divisional Commander for Chelmsford Police. At the time of the WHF case he had commanded over sixty murder investigations during his 23 years In CID.
CAL Page 240:
"DI Miller's meeting with Chief Sup George Harris had left him 'in the doghouse' due to his refusal to conform with the accepted theory Sheila was the killer.
CAL's source:
Michael Barlow COLP (1991) notes for 15th Aug 1985.
When JM 'confessed' to EP, DI Miller took part in the interviews. He contacted Chief Sup George Harris, who was off duty at the time, to advise him of JM's 'confession' and asked if he wanted to attend. Chief Sup Harris said he had guests and to call out the superintendent on duty.
CAL Page 296:
"But George Harris was the Chief Sup Div Commander and present at White House Farm on the morning of the murders. Now, Harris had been a detective superintendent for fifteen years. And on that first morning he and Taff Jones decided Bamber was telling the truth.
Source: Michael Ainsley author interviews 2013
We know Chief Sup Harris was aware of the opium poppies and JB's claims of a special licence because he states such in his WS's:
If he knew for a fact there was something untoward with the opium poppies, or strongly suspected, he may have realised this was a good reason for NB's reluctance to call EP and have them visiting the farm.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2016, 11:16:50 PM
I would have thought a good place to start would be to ask him about the "special licence". Then take it from there.
We've no way of knowing whether or not he was purposely lying about many aspects of the case eg phone call from NB but it didn't stop him being questioned about it.
He had to be asked about the phone call Holly, it was the start of the whole thing, the poppies on the other hand don't relate and even if it could be proven that the poppy story is more poppy cock that poppy fact, he could just claim that that's what he was told.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 21, 2016, 11:20:34 PM
It's JB's claims of a "special licence" to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry that raise suspicions. The Home Office granted the first UK pharma company a licence for morphine production in 2006. There's lots of confirmation of this in the thread. I would recommend you have a little Google and check it out Opal. If I'm wrong I look forward to a slow burn when you shoot me down in flames ?>)()<
Most people whether they be upholders of the law or not are law abiding but I don't buy into the idea because someone is a magistrate and church warden that this is somehow confirmation that he/she would not break the law.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 The Secretary of State may by regulations- Authorisation (a) except from section 3(1)(a) or (b), 4(1)(a) or (b) or 5(1) activities of this Act such controlled drugs as may be specified in unlawful the regulations ; and under (b) make such other provision as he thinks fit for the foregoing purpose of making it lawful for persons to do things provisions. which under any of the following provisions of this Act, that is to say sections 4(1), 5(1) and 6(1), it would otherwise be unlawful for them to do. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) above, regulations under that subsection authorising the doing of any such thing. as is mentioned in that paragraph may in particular provide for the doing of that thing to be lawful- (a) if it is done under and in accordance with the terms of a licence or other authority issued by the Secretary that it is not unlawful under section 50) of this Act for a doctor, dentist, veterinary` practitioner, veterinary surgeon, pharmacist or person lawfully conducting a retail pharmacy business to have a controlled drug in his possession for the purpose of acting in his capacity as such. (4) If in the case of any controlled drug the Secretary of State is of the opinion that it is in the public interest (a) for production, supply and possession of that drug to be either wholly unlawful or unlawful except for purposes of research or other special purposes ; or (b) for it to be unlawful for practitioners, pharmacists and persons lawfully conducting retail pharmacy businesses to do in relation to that drug any of the things mentioned in subsection (3) above except under a licence or other authority Looks like there was a 'Licence' available in 1971 issued by the Secretary of State.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 21, 2016, 11:25:54 PM
What! Thought that's me done on here for tonight, turned the tele on to BBC 1.....what's it about the growth of poppies for drugs in Mexico!!! %£&)**#
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 22, 2016, 03:25:37 PM
He had to be asked about the phone call Holly, it was the start of the whole thing, the poppies on the other hand don't relate and even if it could be proven that the poppy story is more poppy cock that poppy fact, he could just claim that that's what he was told.
Yes I agree JB had to be asked about the phone call but there was no way of knowing whether or not he was being truthful.
As far as I'm aware police officers don't take the view that there's no point asking questions that can't be proved one way or another. They surely ask as many questions as possible to look for inconsistencies, build pictures and check for reactions?
Everything JB said and did whilst stood outside WHF on 7th Aug was put under the microscope except his claims the farm had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry &%+((£
You claim the opium poppies don't relate. How do you know this?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: rotti on July 22, 2016, 03:29:28 PM
He had to be asked about the phone call Holly, it was the start of the whole thing, the poppies on the other hand don't relate and even if it could be proven that the poppy story is more poppy cock that poppy fact, he could just claim that that's what he was told.
yes poppycock sounds right caroline @)(++(*
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 22, 2016, 03:58:49 PM
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 The Secretary of State may by regulations- Authorisation (a) except from section 3(1)(a) or (b), 4(1)(a) or (b) or 5(1) activities of this Act such controlled drugs as may be specified in unlawful the regulations ; and under (b) make such other provision as he thinks fit for the foregoing purpose of making it lawful for persons to do things provisions. which under any of the following provisions of this Act, that is to say sections 4(1), 5(1) and 6(1), it would otherwise be unlawful for them to do. (2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) above, regulations under that subsection authorising the doing of any such thing. as is mentioned in that paragraph may in particular provide for the doing of that thing to be lawful- (a) if it is done under and in accordance with the terms of a licence or other authority issued by the Secretary that it is not unlawful under section 50) of this Act for a doctor, dentist, veterinary` practitioner, veterinary surgeon, pharmacist or person lawfully conducting a retail pharmacy business to have a controlled drug in his possession for the purpose of acting in his capacity as such. (4) If in the case of any controlled drug the Secretary of State is of the opinion that it is in the public interest (a) for production, supply and possession of that drug to be either wholly unlawful or unlawful except for purposes of research or other special purposes ; or (b) for it to be unlawful for practitioners, pharmacists and persons lawfully conducting retail pharmacy businesses to do in relation to that drug any of the things mentioned in subsection (3) above except under a licence or other authority Looks like there was a 'Licence' available in 1971 issued by the Secretary of State.
The misuse of drugs acts 1971 identifies classes of controlled drugs and identifies those that are legally eligible to produce, procure and distribute. Along with penalties for those that are operating illegally.
It is often presented as little more than a list of prohibited drugs and of penalties linked to their possession and supply. In practice, however, the act establishes the Home Secretary as a key player in a drug licensing system. Therefore, for example, various opiates are available legally as prescription-only medicines, and cannabis (hemp)[6] may be grown under licence for 'industrial purposes'. The Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001,[7] created under the 1971 Act, are about licensing of production, possession and supply of substances classified under the act.
A farmer growing opium poppies does not require a licence as the poppies are totally benign until processed for drugs containing opiates. It is the pharma company that requires the licence as they are the producer of the opium poppies (raw material) turning them into powerful drugs containing opiates.
In late 2006, the British government permitted MacFarlan Smith to cultivate opium poppies in the United Kingdom for medicinal reasons, in response to increasing global prices for concentrate of poppy straw, the company's main raw material. This move is well received by British farmers,[citation needed] with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012 they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire & Lincolnshire as a spring sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy.[9] The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration.[10] The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.[11]
What! Thought that's me done on here for tonight, turned the tele on to BBC 1.....what's it about the growth of poppies for drugs in Mexico!!! %£&)**#
And think how much safer, easier and more profitable it would be for a UK drug cartel if they were able to procure the poppies in the UK and produce heroin on home soil rather than smuggling it across the globe.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on July 26, 2016, 07:40:40 PM
Anyone can cultivate poppies in the UK commercially and they are grown for both their seeds and their flowers. Extracting opium however for medical purposes requires a licence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 26, 2016, 11:23:54 PM
The misuse of drugs acts 1971 identifies classes of controlled drugs and identifies those that are legally eligible to produce, procure and distribute. Along with penalties for those that are operating illegally.
It is often presented as little more than a list of prohibited drugs and of penalties linked to their possession and supply. In practice, however, the act establishes the Home Secretary as a key player in a drug licensing system. Therefore, for example, various opiates are available legally as prescription-only medicines, and cannabis (hemp)[6] may be grown under licence for 'industrial purposes'. The Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001,[7] created under the 1971 Act, are about licensing of production, possession and supply of substances classified under the act.
A farmer growing opium poppies does not require a licence as the poppies are totally benign until processed for drugs containing opiates. It is the pharma company that requires the licence as they are the producer of the opium poppies (raw material) turning them into powerful drugs containing opiates.
In late 2006, the British government permitted MacFarlan Smith to cultivate opium poppies in the United Kingdom for medicinal reasons, in response to increasing global prices for concentrate of poppy straw, the company's main raw material. This move is well received by British farmers,[citation needed] with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012 they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire & Lincolnshire as a spring sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy.[9] The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration.[10] The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.[11]
Exactly what I said Holly, NB didn't need a licence to grow Opium Poppies, but from 'The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 it was unlawful for practitioners, pharmacists and persons lawfully conducting retail pharmacy businesses to do in relation to that drug any of the things mentioned in subsection (3) except under a licence or other authority The attachments you've given are not as early as 1971. So when JB said they had a special licence, he meant the Pharmaceutical Company had a licence so it wasn't illegal.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 27, 2016, 12:05:41 PM
Exactly what I said Holly, NB didn't need a licence to grow Opium Poppies, but from 'The Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 it was unlawful for practitioners, pharmacists and persons lawfully conducting retail pharmacy businesses to do in relation to that drug any of the things mentioned in subsection (3) except under a licence or other authority The attachments you've given are not as early as 1971. So when JB said they had a special licence, he meant the Pharmaceutical Company had a licence so it wasn't illegal.
We seem to go round in circles on this one Opal @)(++(*
I agree NB didn't need a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry but:
- According to Dr Craig JB told him that WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry.
- If JB was lying why didn't EP pick up on this during interviews?
- There's no evidence of any history in this country of farmers growing opium poppies for the pharma industry before 2006.
- It appears from all the available evidence in the public domain that pharma company McFarlan Smith is the only UK based company to be granted a licence to extact opium from poppies grown by UK farmers. This was in 2006. How can you explain WHF growing opium poppies for a pharma company in 1985.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 27, 2016, 12:19:18 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
Present
In 2001, Johnson Matthey plc bought Meconic, and merged it into its Fine Chemical and Catalysts division.
In late 2006, the British government permitted MacFarlan Smith to cultivate opium poppies in the United Kingdom for medicinal reasons, in response to increasing global prices for concentrate of poppy straw, the company's main raw material. This move is well received by British farmers, with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012 they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire & Lincolnshire as a spring sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy. The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration. The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.
The British government has since contradicted the Home Office's suggestion that opium cultivation can be legalized in Afghanistan for exports to the United Kingdom, helping lower poverty and internal fighting whilst helping the National Health Service to meet the high demand for morphine and heroin. Opium poppy cultivation in the United Kingdom does not need a licence, but a licence is required for those wishing to extract opium for medicinal products.
Macfarlan Smith is now one of the world's leading manufacturer of opiate alkaloids. Together with sister companies within the Johnson Matthey group, they can provide full spectrum drug development, from drug discovery through to bulk production.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on July 27, 2016, 01:15:36 PM
So am I correct in thinking it is the pharmaceutical Company who required the licence and not the farmer since poppies are grown for all sorts of purposes other than opium extraction?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 27, 2016, 02:01:36 PM
So am I correct in thinking it is the pharmaceutical Company who required the licence and not the farmer since poppies are grown for all sorts of purposes other than opium extraction?
Yes that's correct.
JB and/or Dr Craig could easily have got their wires crossed about the licence. However as far as I can see the first UK pharma company to be granted a licence for producing medicines using opium poppies grown by UK farmers was MacFarlan Smith in 2006. The only other innocent explanation I can think of is that WHF was exporting the poppies to an overseas pharma company. Failing this the only other possibility I can think of is that WHF was cultivating opium poppies for a drug cartel with the poppies transported to a site capable of extracting the opium and turning it into heroin ready to market on the streets of Essex/London.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 28, 2016, 12:17:57 AM
We seem to go round in circles on this one Opal @)(++(*
I agree NB didn't need a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry but:
- According to Dr Craig JB told him that WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry.
- If JB was lying why didn't EP pick up on this during interviews?
- There's no evidence of any history in this country of farmers growing opium poppies for the pharma industry before 2006.
- It appears from all the available evidence in the public domain that pharma company McFarlan Smith is the only UK based company to be granted a licence to extact opium from poppies grown by UK farmers. This was in 2006. How can you explain WHF growing opium poppies for a pharma company in 1985.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
Don't we just Holly @)(++(*
In 1962, T&H Smith bought Duncan Flockhart, and then merged with along J.F Macfarlan to form Edinburgh Pharmaceuticals. In 1965 the Glaxo Group bought Edinburgh Pharmaceuticals, rebranding it Macfarlan Smith Ltd.[1][2]
In 1958, while trying to develop dental anasthetic Lignocaine, the company had discovered the bitterest substance yet known to man, Denatonium. Developed as a denaturant for industrial alcohol, in the 1970s it was commercial marketed as Bitrex®,[7] a safety additive for household products such as liquid detergents. Tesco were the first supermarket to display the Bitrex® brand on their products.[1][2]
In 1963 the company reproduced Etorphine, in a research group led by Professor Kenneth Bentley.[8]
Etorphine (M99) is a semi-synthetic opioid possessing an analgesic potency approximately 1,000–3,000 times that of morphine.[1] It was first prepared in 1960 fromoripavine, which does not generally occur in opium poppy extract but rather in "poppy straw" and in the related plants Papaver orientale and Papaver bracteatum.[2] It was later reproduced in 1963 by a research group at MacFarlan Smith in Gorgie, Edinburgh, led by Professor Kenneth Bentley.[3] I believe the Macfarlan Smith Company managed to get a Licence to lawfully produce this from The Secretary of State...See Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 7Authorisation of activities otherwise unlawful under foregoing provisions (a)if it is done under and in accordance with the terms of a licence or other authority issued by the Secretary of State and in compliance with any conditions attached thereto; or (b)if it is done in compliance with such conditions as may be prescribed. [/color]
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 28, 2016, 02:17:05 PM
In 1962, T&H Smith bought Duncan Flockhart, and then merged with along J.F Macfarlan to form Edinburgh Pharmaceuticals. In 1965 the Glaxo Group bought Edinburgh Pharmaceuticals, rebranding it Macfarlan Smith Ltd.[1][2]
In 1958, while trying to develop dental anasthetic Lignocaine, the company had discovered the bitterest substance yet known to man, Denatonium. Developed as a denaturant for industrial alcohol, in the 1970s it was commercial marketed as Bitrex®,[7] a safety additive for household products such as liquid detergents. Tesco were the first supermarket to display the Bitrex® brand on their products.[1][2]
In 1963 the company reproduced Etorphine, in a research group led by Professor Kenneth Bentley.[8]
Etorphine (M99) is a semi-synthetic opioid possessing an analgesic potency approximately 1,000–3,000 times that of morphine.[1] It was first prepared in 1960 fromoripavine, which does not generally occur in opium poppy extract but rather in "poppy straw" and in the related plants Papaver orientale and Papaver bracteatum.[2] It was later reproduced in 1963 by a research group at MacFarlan Smith in Gorgie, Edinburgh, led by Professor Kenneth Bentley.[3] I believe the Macfarlan Smith Company managed to get a Licence to lawfully produce this from The Secretary of State...See Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 7Authorisation of activities otherwise unlawful under foregoing provisions (a)if it is done under and in accordance with the terms of a licence or other authority issued by the Secretary of State and in compliance with any conditions attached thereto; or (b)if it is done in compliance with such conditions as may be prescribed. [/color]
Yes MacFarlan Smith (parent company Johnson Matthey) produced various medicines containing opiates prior to 1985 but the opium poppies used were sourced from Tasmania not the UK. As far as I can see the first time any UK based pharmaceutical company sourced its poppies from the UK was McFarlan Smith in 2006 which doesn't account for JB's claims in 1985 of opium poppies grown at WHF for the pharmaceutical industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
In late 2006, the British government permitted MacFarlan Smith to cultivate opium poppies in the United Kingdom for medicinal reasons, in response to increasing global prices for concentrate of poppy straw, the company's main raw material. This move is well received by British farmers,[citation needed] with a major opium poppy field based in Didcot, England. As of 2012 they were growing in Dorset, Hampshire, Oxfordshire & Lincolnshire as a spring sown breakcrop recognised under the single payment scheme farm subsidy.[9] The Office of Fair Trading has alerted the government to their monopoly position on growing in the UK and worldwide production of diamorphine and recommended consideration.[10] The government's response advocated the status quo, being concerned interference might cause the company to stop production.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f8k41
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Opal on July 28, 2016, 10:43:52 PM
Oh ok Holly the poppies came from Tasmania or abroad in the 1980's.
As NB didn't need a licence to grow opium poppies could it have been part of a trial planting just a small area? I read somewhere about a 'set aside' for farmers but I'm not sure when this came into force....?
The common poppy suffered a decline with the advent of intensive agriculture and the increasing use of herbicides after the Second World War, but had a revival in Britain in the 1980s as a result of the policy of ‘set-aside’ in which farmers were rewarded for taking agricultural land out of production.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 29, 2016, 10:48:37 AM
Oh ok Holly the poppies came from Tasmania or abroad in the 1980's.
As NB didn't need a licence to grow opium poppies could it have been part of a trial planting just a small area? I read somewhere about a 'set aside' for farmers but I'm not sure when this came into force....?
The common poppy suffered a decline with the advent of intensive agriculture and the increasing use of herbicides after the Second World War, but had a revival in Britain in the 1980s as a result of the policy of ‘set-aside’ in which farmers were rewarded for taking agricultural land out of production.
Also India. I think this was the main reason MacFarlane Smith looked towards the UK to cultivate the poppies in that the price of the opium latex from India (the liquid that seeps from the head) increased substantially. And I guess given that the morphine the company produced was destined for the NHS this is the reason the gov granted the licence. To this day MacFarlane appear to have a monopoly which has been the subject of an OFT review but gov overrode fearing MacFarlane might cease production.
Set-aside I understand is to encourage wildlife eg song birds that eat a lot of insects and to reduce production of crops eg wheat, barley to balance supply/demand and price.
Agreed NB didn't need a licence and could have been a trial but this doesn't fit with JB's claims as told by Dr Craig.
I think there are too many unknowns to say anything for certain. Its just another aspect of the case that is once again out of the ordinary as I don't believe many farmers in the 80's grew opium poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2016, 09:25:02 AM
The murders at WHF are one of the UK's most notorious crimes and also the site of the world's most notorious plant seemingly growing in abundance at a time when UK farms didn't have any legitimate reason to cultivate op's on a large scale. Are we to believe the two are entirely unconnected? If so on what basis?
If NB was seeing numerous addicts and drug related crimes in his role as magistrate he may have taken the view they're going to obtain it so let's get the quality right. Or had some bizarre ideas about controlling the strength and weaning addicts off. Or setting up a Mr Big to get him behind bars. On the other hand he may just have wanted a slice of the huge profits. The possibilities are numerous.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2016, 09:26:01 AM
Had the op's been growing at JB's cottage I think rather more would have been made of it. As they were growing at WHF, which NB was ultimately responsible for, it appears to have fallen under the radar. Perhaps on the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that NB was above reproach.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2016, 09:28:09 AM
Where did the op's end up? Or were they destroyed?
Post tragedy Peter Eaton was appointed farm manager. JB said the first task was to complete the harvest. I assume he meant mainstream crops: wheat, barley.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 03:16:54 PM
Had the op's been growing at JB's cottage I think rather more would have been made of it. As they were growing at WHF, which NB was ultimately responsible for, it appears to have fallen under the radar. Perhaps on the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that NB was above reproach.
There is no mystery about the growing of poppies at WHF, poppies have been cultivated commercially for many other reasons aside from opiate extraction.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2016, 05:52:56 PM
There is no mystery about the growing of poppies at WHF, poppies have been cultivated commercially for many other reasons aside from opiate extraction.
I understand seeds for culinary and flowers for ornamental. But these reasons don't explain the written testimonies of Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris who state JB told them WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. If JB was lying why didn't EP interview him about this and use it against him at trial? Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies.
It also appears local surveyor, George Nicholls, noted the opium poppies when he carried out an annual assessment of the farm shortly before the tragedy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 12:49:52 PM
I understand seeds for culinary and flowers for ornamental. But these reasons don't explain the written testimonies of Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris who state JB told them WHF had a special licence to grow opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry. If JB was lying why didn't EP interview him about this and use it against him at trial? Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris looked at the poppies.
It also appears local surveyor, George Nicholls, noted the opium poppies when he carried out an annual assessment of the farm shortly before the tragedy.
It comes down to two options, either they misunderstood him and what he actually said was that a special licence was granted to the pharmaceutical company to extract opium or that a special licence was needed by such a company. Growing poppies on WHF was perfectly legal, Nevill did nothing wrong despite your insinuations to the contrary.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 05, 2016, 04:42:55 PM
It comes down to two options, either they misunderstood him and what he actually said was that a special licence was granted to the pharmaceutical company to extract opium or that a special licence was needed by such a company. Growing poppies on WHF was perfectly legal, Nevill did nothing wrong despite your insinuations to the contrary.
I can't find any evidence of the UK government granting a licence to a pharmaceutical company to extract opium from poppies grown on UK soil prior to the 2000's.
It appears the one and only licence granted to a pharma company was to MacFarlan Smith in 2006.
I can't find any evidence of the UK government granting a licence to a pharmaceutical company to extract opium from poppies grown on UK soil prior to the 2000's.
It appears the one and only licence granted to a pharma company was to MacFarlan Smith in 2006.
Just because you can't find anything online about licensing in '85 doesn't mean it didn't exist.
This has become an obsessive mantra of yours, Holly... how many more times are you going to repeat it!?
That's why I've said I can't find any evidence and haven't said there isn't any evidence. If licences had been granted before 2006 I would have expected to find something. I've searched 2,364,237,561 websites and found nothing. I've been to all the London libraries too and found nothing. I've asked round all my farmer friends found nothing. I'm just drafting a letter to the Home Office requesting info under FOI re any licences granted before 2006. I'll upload the reply.
John has only recently joined in the debate re the poppies and I was just advising him of the situation to save him ploughing through 20 pages of posts.
I'm trying my best to get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on August 11, 2016, 07:31:25 PM
That's why I've said I can't find any evidence and haven't said there isn't any evidence. If licences had been granted before 2006 I would have expected to find something. I've searched 2,364,237,561 websites and found nothing. I've been to all the London libraries too and found nothing. I've asked round all my farmer friends found nothing. I'm just drafting a letter to the Home Office requesting info under FOI re any licences granted before 2006. I'll upload the reply.
John has only recently joined in the debate re the poppies and I was just advising him of the situation to save him ploughing through 20 pages of posts.
I'm trying my best to get to the bottom of it.
Well, well, well ...... I have found another reference to the opium poppies. It is in Colin's book (Chapter 3, page 43). He states that Stan Jones told him "Nevill was growing opium under a special government license for the pharmaceutical indistry". Obviously he was told this by Jeremy and it led to Sheila being tested for narcotics. The tests proved negative for cocaine BUT he goes on to say that there was an"unusually high level of haloperidol" in her system.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on August 11, 2016, 08:03:35 PM
That's why I've said I can't find any evidence and haven't said there isn't any evidence. If licences had been granted before 2006 I would have expected to find something. I've searched 2,364,237,561 websites and found nothing. I've been to all the London libraries too and found nothing. I've asked round all my farmer friends found nothing. I'm just drafting a letter to the Home Office requesting info under FOI re any licences granted before 2006. I'll upload the reply.
John has only recently joined in the debate re the poppies and I was just advising him of the situation to save him ploughing through 20 pages of posts.
I'm trying my best to get to the bottom of it.
Thanx guys. I really don't think there was anything sinister in Nevill growing a field of poppies at WHF. Jeremy on the other hand must have been elated.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 11, 2016, 09:49:01 PM
Well, well, well ...... I have found another reference to the opium poppies. It is in Colin's book (Chapter 3, page 43). He states that Stan Jones told him "Nevill was growing opium under a special government license for the pharmaceutical indistry". Obviously he was told this by Jeremy and it led to Sheila being tested for narcotics. The tests proved negative for cocaine BUT he goes on to say that there was an"unusually high level of haloperidol" in her system.
Good find Caro 8((()*/
Why is it obvious JB told DS Jones? Isn't it more likely he learned this from Chief Sup Harris either directly or indirectly?
Samples were taken for all adult victims in order that they could be screened for drugs and alcohol as evidenced by the pathologist's samples list. I think it's common knowledge in terms of recreational drugs only a faint trace of cannabis showed up for SC. CC states in his WS he asked SC if she took cocaine and she denied it. He goes on to say her friends confirmed she did. Dr Ferguson also states in his WS he was aware SC used cocaine socially.
Had there have been an usually high level of halperidol in SC's system this would have been confirmed through the toxicology tests carried out.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on August 11, 2016, 09:52:25 PM
Why is it obvious JB told DS Jones? Isn't it more likely he learned this from Chief Sup Harris either directly or indirectly?
Samples were taken for all adult victims in order that they could be screened for drugs and alcohol as evidenced by the pathologist's samples list. I think it's common knowledge in terms of recreational drugs only a faint trace of cannabis showed up for SC. CC states in his WS he asked SC if she took cocaine and she denied it. He goes on to say her friends confirmed she did. Dr Ferguson also states in his WS he was aware SC used cocaine socially.
Had there have been an usually high level of halperidol in SC's system this would have been confirmed through the toxicology tests carried out.
Perhaps it was, we haven't seen all the documentation pertaining to the case.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 19, 2016, 05:09:37 PM
When I've read about drink driving it's always expressed as volume of alcohol over volume contained in biological sample with clearly defined parameters as to what is under the permitted limit and what is over:
So I'm assuming there's something similar with POM whereby a suitably qualified person is able to confirm whether or not the patient is receiving too high or low dose based on biological samples showing quantity of drug contained within?
I've not really looked into SC's POM. Had a quick look and it appears the adverse effects eg Tardive dyskinsea are rare <1% incidence
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol
Are they all the same? I think SC's was Haloperidol Deconate.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 12, 2017, 10:35:27 PM
In today's MoS:
"Should cannabis be legalised in UK for medicinal use"?
Arguments for yes and no. The no argument by Kevin A. Sabet, former White House drug policy adviser to President Barack Obama:
"Imagine if someone grew opium poppies in their garden and told you to smoke it to get the effects of morphine, which is an extract of the plant. That is what is happening with the movement to legitimise medical cannabis".
There's little doubt opium poppies were growing at WHF. Was NB addicted to morphine from his plane crash during WW11 which resulted in back surgery. NB sustained serious injuries and at one time it was thought he would never walk again.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2017, 10:32:35 AM
NB is described by most, if not all, as an easy-going character.
From RB re his car rallying with NB:
Robert recalled 'He was not the sort of person to lose his temper easily...I would point him up the wrong track and get temporarily lost but he never had a go at me. Even in the evenings when all the other drivers were loudly having a "pop" at their navigators over a pint of beer, Nevill never did likewise with me'.
From BW:
'Mr Bamber was a proper gentleman, always so even-tempered'.
Some people are inherently even-tempered rarely getting ruffled. Perhaps this was NB and/or his WW11 experiences of coming close to death gave him a different perspective on life.
RB and BW seem to imply NB had justifiable reason to lose his temper at times but didn't. Was this down to NB's temperament and/or life experiences or was he self-medicating on opium/morphine and permanently chilled out?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2017, 10:59:48 AM
If NB was growing opium poppies to self-medicate this may have been the reason he was reluctant to involve the authorities and called JB, if he did call JB.
I'm sure we've all done something naughty at times and feel guilty/fear getting found out and become quite irrational about it! I'm thinking when I go snooping and then feel guilty and fear I've left incriminating evidence behind and keep going back to check and then fear I've left some evidence from checking and so the cycle goes on! What I am saying is assuming the poppies were only taking up a small amount of land the chances of the police identifying were slim. Even if they did identify them there was nothing to prevent NB growing them for ornamental reasons but when you know you're doing something naughty/illegal it can all become irrational in your mind.
The fact JB picked a bunch of opium poppies upon being told all his family were dead and then advised Dr Craig the farm had a licence to produce them for the pharma industry is to my mind significant.
Research shows UK farms were not authorised to grow opium poppies for the pharma ind until well into the noughties. If NB grew them to self-medicate was JB aware? Assuming NB made the call to JB maybe JB was wondering why NB called him and not EP and put it down to the poppies. Hence he made a point of explaining their existence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on November 13, 2017, 04:00:49 PM
If NB was growing opium poppies to self-medicate this may have been the reason he was reluctant to involve the authorities and called JB, if he did call JB.
I'm sure we've all done something naughty at times and feel guilty/fear getting found out and become quite irrational about it! I'm thinking when I go snooping and then feel guilty and fear I've left incriminating evidence behind and keep going back to check and then fear I've left some evidence from checking and so the cycle goes on! What I am saying is assuming the poppies were only taking up a small amount of land the chances of the police identifying were slim. Even if they did identify them there was nothing to prevent NB growing them for ornamental reasons but when you know you're doing something naughty/illegal it can all become irrational in your mind.
The fact JB picked a bunch of opium poppies upon being told all his family were dead and then advised Dr Craig the farm had a licence to produce them for the pharma industry is to my mind significant.
Research shows UK farms were not authorised to grow opium poppies for the pharma ind until well into the noughties. If NB grew them to self-medicate was JB aware? Assuming NB made the call to JB maybe JB was wondering why NB called him and not EP and put it down to the poppies. Hence he made a point of explaining their existence.
Here is what the Dickinson Enquiry mentions about it. It seems to imply Dr Craig took Jeremy in that direction for a walk rather than Jeremy going to randomly pick the plants some distance away.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2017, 08:23:03 PM
Here is what the Dickinson Enquiry mentions about it. It seems to imply Dr Craig took Jeremy in that direction for a walk rather than Jeremy going to randomly pick the plants some distance away.
Thanks David. No mention of the poppies per se. Here's another take:
Page 179 CAL's book:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Ian Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2017, 08:35:43 PM
During JB's interviews under caution he was asked why NB would call JB over the police. JB replied NB wasn't the sort to involve the authorities. According to RB, NB had a low regard for the local police referring to them as 'No better than Dad's Army'. Everyone said NB and June kept SC's mental illness private. So if NB called JB over EP it may have been for these sorts of reasons. Or he may have feared his opium poppies coming to the attention of the authorities. Would they be the sort of thing a sniffer dog would pick up on?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2017, 08:55:45 PM
A quick Google search suggests the raw opium (the white stuff that oozes from the head) is smelly and easily detected by sniffer dogs. If any such thing was going on at WHF the operation must have been carried out somewhere eg an outbuilding or the like with the process at varying stages at different times.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on November 13, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
Thanks David. No mention of the poppies per se. Here's another take:
Page 179 CAL's book:
"He [JB] was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Ian Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry..."
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
They could well have had a home office license to grow it.
MSL is the only company to currently hold a licence to manufacture opium derivatives in the UK. The Home Office has informed the OFT that it would be willing to issue a manufacturing licence to another company, which met the relevant security requirements. However it is not aware of any company which has attempted to gain a manufacturing licence in recent years or has indicated a desire to do so in the future. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf)
It does not mention it could never have been done prior.
I doubt Nevill was some Heroin kingpin
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
They could well have had a home office license to grow it.
MSL is the only company to currently hold a licence to manufacture opium derivatives in the UK. The Home Office has informed the OFT that it would be willing to issue a manufacturing licence to another company, which met the relevant security requirements. However it is not aware of any company which has attempted to gain a manufacturing licence in recent years or has indicated a desire to do so in the future. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf)
It does not mention it could never have been done prior.
I doubt Nevill was some Heroin kingpin
David we've been all through this months ago on this thread which is currently running at 22 pages.
In 2006 MacFarlan Smith Ltd (MSL) was permitted by the UK Gov to cultivate poppies in the UK for medicinal reasons in response to increasing global prices for poppy straw:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
You find me some evidence of such activity before 2006 and next time we hook up for a beer they're on me. 8((()*/
I think it's unlikely NB was providing illegally for others. Although not impossible and shouldn't be completely ruled out. He certainly had the means and wherewithal: land, agricultural knowledge and possible knowledge from ww11 ,criminal contacts from role as magistrate. We don't know any of these people and it's dangerous to assume too much! The possibilities are numerous including being blackmailed. If it was grown illegally IMO it's far more likely it was for own use. You're aware NB spent months in hospital following a plane crash during WW11? If he was prescribed morphine he may have become addicted to it and grew the poppies for own use.
Just reading the DM. It has been found as a fact that Ben Emmerson QC tried to put his hand down the trousers of a female member of staff working on the child abuse inquiry. It shouldn't be assumed that because a person is this or that they or more or less likely to behave in certain ways. Don't assume. Keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2017, 04:14:12 PM
David you seem convinced Dr Craig had a drink problem on the basis he arrived at WHF with a hip flask containing whisky. Yet you seem convinced there's nothing untoward with the opium poppies growing at WHF?
You can see how easy it is to turn opium poppies into morphine. Much easier than taking further steps to produce heroin:
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2017, 04:45:15 PM
According to CAL one source claims NB spent weeks in hospital with his back encased in plaster, while another claims he was out of action for 2 years with spinal injuries. This was after his plane was shot down over N.Africa.
I have always thought the so-called burn marks to NB's back might be old scars from the above.
Even if he was pain free from his back injury post treatment he may have been troubled by the old injuries later in life. Anyway it is possible if prescribed morphine he became addicted and/or self-medicated later in life.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2017, 05:24:14 PM
The process of turning opium poppies into morphine:
About three months after the poppy seeds are planted, brightly-colored flowers bloom at the tips of greenish, tubular stems. As the petals fall away, they expose an egg-shaped seed pod. Inside the pod is an opaque, milky sap. This is opium in its crudest form.
The sap is extracted by slitting the pod vertically in parallel strokes with a special curved knife. As the sap oozes out, it turns darker and thicker, forming a brownish-black gum. A farmer collects the gum with a scraping knife, bundles it into bricks, cakes or balls and wraps them in a simple material such as plastic or leaves. Then the opium enters the black market. A merchant or broker buys the packages for transport to a morphine refinery. "Most traffickers do their morphine refining close to the poppy fields, since compact morphine bricks are much easier to smuggle than bundles of pungent, jelly-like opium," writes Alfred W. McCoy in The Politics of Heroin.
At the refinery, which may be little more than a rickety laboratory equipped with oil drums and shrouded in a jungle thicket, the opium is mixed with lime in boiling water. A precipitate of organic waste sinks to the bottom. On the surface a white band of morphine forms. This is drawn off, reheated with ammonia, filtered and boiled again until it is reduced to a brown paste.
Poured into molds and dried in the sun, it is now morphine base, which has the consistency of dense modeling clay. Morphine base is smokable in a pipe - a practice introduced by the Dutch in the 17th century - or ready for further processing into heroin.
It seems an out building or the like would be required. I believe the raid team searched all the out buildings but you say some raid team witness statements haven't been released.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2017, 08:48:11 AM
David are you hiding from me?
Another point to consider is the lump of whatever it was found in the safe considered to be cannabis resin which happens to have a similar appearance to morphine in its crudest form. According to AE, JB told her she would find a surprise upon opening the safe. The relatives then associated whatever it was with Roland Pargeter on the basis that he stayed at WHF during 1974 whilst the Bambers helped him overcome a drug habit. This was 11 years before the tragedy and the connection with RP and the lump has never made any sense to me. I believe the safe contained some correspondence from RP and that appears to be the connection.
If NB confiscated whatever it was off of SC which JB evidently knew about then surely he would have said when he gave his WS.
In any event if NB confiscated it off anyone staying at WHF then there was no need to keep it in the safe. He would do what the relatives did with it and throw it out. Again the relatives had no right to destroy it. It should have been handed over to the police for analysis. What gave the relatives the right to determine what was handed over to the police ie silencer and what wasn't brown lump in safe?
So it's possible the brown lump was morphine prepared for smoking.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2017, 08:57:20 AM
The opium poppy pods in the above case were shipped from UK.
WHF was ideally placed for transporting anything grown illegally out of the country. Tracks lead down to the river and easy access to the channel. It's also flat and possible for planes to land/take off. I thought rumours swirled of planes landing/taking off with drugs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3450385.stm
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2017, 10:16:35 AM
There's little doubt opium poppies were growing at WHF. I say little doubt in that unless they were forensically analysed it's not an absolute certainty.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2017, 11:15:44 AM
According to toxicology reports no opiates found in NB's blood:
So it seems unlikely NB was growing opium poppies for morphine/self-medicating given the pm toxicology report showed no trace of opiates. Traces of cannabis presented in SC's pm toxicology report which it is thought originated from use at CC's party on Sat 3rd Aug.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
According to CAL, PC's Collins and Delgado made a cursory search of the outbuildings before entering WHF. DC Bird was asked to photograph the outbuildings. So I'm assuming if there was a lot paraphernalia at WHF for extracting opium from poppies then it would have come to light?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 02:00:10 PM
The following Guardian article refers to Victora/Australia granted permission by UN to grow opium poppies for pharma ind.:
Under the Victorian poppy regime, growers and processors will have to register their contracts, keep extensive records and grow and dispose of their crops under tight security, subject to regular inspection by police and government inspectors.
Only a handful of countries, including Australia, Spain, France and India, are permitted by the UN to grow poppies, which are rich in morphine, thebaine and codeine, the primary ingredients of a host of pain-relieving medicines – as well as heroin.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on November 17, 2017, 03:39:54 PM
According to CAL, PC's Collins and Delgado made a cursory search of the outbuildings before entering WHF. DC Bird was asked to photograph the outbuildings. So I'm assuming if there was a lot paraphernalia at WHF for extracting opium from poppies then it would have come to light?
DCI Harris inspected the opium plants with Dr Craig.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 03:51:50 PM
DCI Harris inspected the opium plants with Dr Craig.
Yes thanks I know. It was discussed earlier in the thread. When I referred to 'paraphernlaia' I was meaning equipment to convert from poppies to morphine/heroin.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 04:27:57 PM
The Rettendon murders took place a little after 10 years from WHF and only 16 miles away. Are the guys responsible still inside? If so perhaps you could write to them and sound them out? Next time we meet up the beers are on me 8((()*/ That's assuming you live to tell the tale 8)--))
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 05:12:41 PM
The Rettendon murders took place a little after 10 years from WHF and only 16 miles away. Are the guys responsible still inside? If so perhaps you could write to them and sound them out? Next time we meet up the beers are on me 8((()*/ That's assuming you live to tell the tale 8)--))
Seems they're still inside. They both had their original 18 year setence increased to 25 years by Jack Straw. Both claim they're victims of a MoJ and both passed lie detector tests! Now where have I heard that before...
Michael Steele bought a fast boat for drug runs across the North Sea from UK to Belgium. WHF was ideally placed for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 05:16:06 PM
He seems quite family orientated. I think you should be ok writing to him.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 17, 2017, 05:52:25 PM
David why don't you, man to man, write to Jack Whomes and ask his views on the opium poppies:
Dear Jack
I'm intested in true crime and have been delving into the case of Jeremy Bamber/White House Farm murders, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, Essex in 1985. Bamber claims he is the victim of a MoJ and I believe he might well be right.
One puzzling aspect of the case is that Bamber drew attention to what he claimed were opium poppies growing at the farm. The police surgeon who attended and the chief supt viewed them but nothing else is known. Bamber informed the police surgeon the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry but it seems such licences only became available mid 2000's.
Are you able to help me out here? Would there have been a black market for opium poppies in the mid 80's? Maybe with processing taking place elsewhere in UK or overseas? Farm tracks lead down to the river with access to the Channel/North Sea and it's flat enough for planes to land/take off.
Regards
Dave, Essex.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2017, 10:56:49 AM
David another article re the Rettendon murders. As you will see the murder place was a farmers field where the gang said a plane dropping drugs was due to land. It also refers to transferring drugs from the Belgium coast to the Essex coast using Steele's speedboat. So you can see how WHF would be ideally placed to ship out raw opium by plane or boat. Farm tracks from WHF lead straight to the river.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2017, 11:31:39 AM
Here's a case where a British couple bought a home in Italy and ended up in trouble because opium poppies were growing albeit they were not planted by the British couple. Given the potential of these plants in terms of illegal drugs it's no wonder the authorities across the globe treat illegal growing seriously:
Was NB growing opium poppies illegally? Is this the reason he called JB and not the police? If NB was growing them illegally was JB in on it? Did the pair decide on a story in the event of questions being asked? Hence JB's 'the farm has a licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry' which seems unlikely since there's no evidence the UK authorities gave permission for UK farmers to grow opium poppies until the mid noughties.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2017, 12:51:09 PM
Chart 11 shows total income from farming (TIFF) was low during the early 80's and had been in decline since the 70's for a variety of reasons:
I guess this was one of the reasons the family looked to diversify by developing OCP and subsequently turning Vaulty Manor into a wedding venue.
Was the opportunity for quick, easy and extraordinarily high profits to great a temptation? If a long established farmer sees his/her income/profits falling year on year due to various market conditions beyond his/her control does he/she think if there's a demand for illegal opium lets supply demand? If growing legal crops produces £ per acre and illegally growing opium poppies produces ££££££££££££££££££££ or more per acre will some take the risk and justify the fact it's immoral/illegal to aussage his/her conscience?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2017, 07:21:27 PM
Unlike cannabis plants that are easily grown and processed, converting opium poppies into heroin is far more complex. There are a lot of cases of UK police busting cannabis growing operations but I've been unable to find anything for opium poppies. Firstly land is required and most criminals wouldn't have the means to purchase. Even those organised who've laundered funds to enable investment into legit businesses would struggle to keep such an operation under wraps. WHF was an established farm/business and NB considered a legit farmer/businessman which he may well have been.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 19, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
David the question I'm asking is that most heroin that ends up in UK comes from places like Afghanistan, S.E Asia and S.America. What are the reasons for this? Geography in terms of climate etc good for producing and/or governments ineffectual in keeping law and order? Why isn't heroin produced in UK or N.Europe? We know climate etc will sustain opium poppies so I guess the reason it isn't is that the authorities would soon be alerted to and close down with growers charged if it could be proved they intended to produce heroin.
Cannabis plants can be grown indoors.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 20, 2017, 12:24:34 PM
As far as I can see the existence of the opium poppies, JB's comments on 7th Aug and Dr Craig and Chief Supt Harris viewing them on 7th Aug haven't been fully explained. The idea mooted above is one of many possibilities.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on November 20, 2017, 12:38:27 PM
As far as I can see the existence of the opium poppies, JB's comments on 7th Aug and Dr Craig and Chief Supt Harris viewing them on 7th Aug haven't been fully explained. The ideas mooted above are one of many possibilities.
I guess they haven't been explained because they are immaterial.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 20, 2017, 01:06:52 PM
The above may well provide the answers as to why opium poppies are not grown in so-called lawful countries even though the geography would permit the plants to thrive.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 09:38:29 AM
I could understand Mike coming up with this but not you. Take a step back!
It's a lot easier to grow drugs in the remote areas of Afganistan (heroin) and somewhere like Columbia (coke), but it's a bit different when talking about a working farm in the middle of the Essex countryside. I'm sure it was checked out at the time and being unrelated to the murders, wasn't ever part of the case other than Jeremy's dramatic venture into the field to fake being sick.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 02:05:33 PM
I could understand Mike coming up with this but not you. Take a step back!
It's a lot easier to grow drugs in the remote areas of Afganistan (heroin) and somewhere like Columbia (coke), but it's a bit different when talking about a working farm in the middle of the Essex countryside. I'm sure it was checked out at the time and being unrelated to the murders, wasn't ever part of the case other than Jeremy's dramatic venture into the field to fake being sick.
When you say the drug is much easier to grow in the remote areas of Afghanistan I assume you mean illegally as opposed to horticulturally?
I guess if UK drug cartels could procure opium in the UK it would be an attractive proposition in terms of reduced risk and higher profits. The problem being unlike largely lawless countries associated with opium production: Afghanistan, S.America and S.E Asia, the UK authorities would soon home in on criminals buying up farm land for opium production.
Other than the fact it appears opium poppies were growing at the farm it appears little else is known so can't really rule anything in or out. The most senior officer present at soc on 7th Aug was led to believe opium poppies were growing at WHF for the pharma industry. He took it upon himself to view them and noted such in his WS. If it was some cock n bull story dreamt up by JB then I would have expected this to come up at trial as it showed him less than straight forward.
Many of the historic cases of child sex abuse were perpetuated on the basis that the perps standing afforded him (all him so far) a cover. They were untouchable and the victims' claims dismissed when some dared speak up.
One only has to listen to BW's fawning about 'Mr Bamber' to see how easy NB could fall under the radar. BW referred to NB as the squire of the manor. Who would suspect the squire, church warden, magistrate, Tory?
It seems to me the possibility is dismissed based on a perception of NB rather than the outcome of an investigation:
Did EP ask to see the licence which JB claims the farm had? What happened to the poppies JB picked? What happened to the poppies growing at WHF? Were the poppies forensically analysed to determine species?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: adam on November 21, 2017, 02:33:25 PM
I'm sure a lot of things are a lot easier to do in 'remote areas of Afghanistan'.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 02:45:12 PM
I'm sure a lot of things are a lot easier to do in 'remote areas of Afghanistan'.
WHF was hardly Piccadilly Circus. The dogs would be alert/bark at visitors.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 02:58:55 PM
I've never really taken much notice of talk about threats to NB but I understand this was claimed somewhere?
Also I believe NB was on the phone talking to someone and said to the person present something like 'those two are nasty pieces of work'? Then there was all the doom and gloom stuff reported by BW about how NB feared for his life and had great problems. Did someone make threats about a decision NB made in his role as magistrate? This was before a security alarm was installed at WHF?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 03:08:19 PM
They could well have had a home office license to grow it.
MSL is the only company to currently hold a licence to manufacture opium derivatives in the UK. The Home Office has informed the OFT that it would be willing to issue a manufacturing licence to another company, which met the relevant security requirements. However it is not aware of any company which has attempted to gain a manufacturing licence in recent years or has indicated a desire to do so in the future. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402195904/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft834.pdf)
It does not mention it could never have been done prior.
I doubt Nevill was some Heroin kingpin
On what basis?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on November 21, 2017, 03:28:50 PM
I've never really taken much notice of talk about threats to NB but I understand this was claimed somewhere?
Also I believe NB was on the phone talking to someone and said to the person present something like 'those two are nasty pieces of work'? Then there was all the doom and gloom stuff reported by BW about how NB feared for his life and had great problems. Did someone make threats about a decision NB made in his role as magistrate? This was before a security alarm was installed at WHF?
And the time Nevill broke down and cried after Jeremy launched a particularly vicious verbal attack on him. I think it's long been established that there were no security alarms installed at WHF prior to the murders. If Nevill had been under serious threat -or at least one which was being taken seriously- there would have been alarms installed in every room in the house where entry could be gained from outside, however, from what my magistrate friend tells me, threats tend to be par for the course and protection isn't routinely afforded to JP's, whilst it is for high court judges.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2017, 04:03:28 PM
And the time Nevill broke down and cried after Jeremy launched a particularly vicious verbal attack on him. I think it's long been established that there were no security alarms installed at WHF prior to the murders. If Nevill had been under serious threat -or at least one which was being taken seriously- there would have been alarms installed in every room in the house where entry could be gained from outside, however, from what my magistrate friend tells me, threats tend to be par for the course and protection isn't routinely afforded to JP's, whilst it is for high court judges.
Remind please who witnessed this episode?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on November 21, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
Had a quick flick through CAL and RB made mention of NB in tears over something JB said. But someone else seems to contradict this by saying NB would walk away from domestics.
Is there a parent on the planet who hasn't at some stage suffered unreasonable verbal/behaviour from their teenage/20 something child? Perhaps one of the reasons why 'Kevin' was loved and loathed in equal measures!
Well I don't see how practical judgement can be applied when so little is known about the poppies. There are too many anomalies and unanswered questions to my mind to rule anything in or out.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on November 24, 2017, 03:08:42 PM
Had a quick flick through CAL and RB made mention of NB in tears over something JB said. But someone else seems to contradict this by saying NB would walk away from domestics.
Is there a parent on the planet who hasn't at some stage suffered unreasonable verbal/behaviour from their teenage/20 something child? Perhaps one of the reasons why 'Kevin' was loved and loathed in equal measures!
It wasn't RB who told me. I'd hazard a guess that it had been many years since RB could have been described as Nevill's BF. I wasn't told the specifics of the argument, but all these years on, he was still shaken by the memory of the violence of the verbal attack. It must have been as appalling for Nevill if it caused his to break down in front of his friend.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Nicholas on November 24, 2017, 04:01:55 PM
Well I don't see how practical judgement can be applied when so little is known about the poppies. There are too many anomalies and unanswered questions to my mind to rule anything in or out.
To what anomalies and unanswered questions do you refer Holly? There are none.
And why are you choosing to suggest NB, a murder victim, was up to no good in relation to opium/heroin or whatever prior to his murder? He wasn't!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQBxzfW3vSc
And here's Sherlock from blue https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo *&^^& doing an impression of deputy dawg
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 27, 2017, 04:02:27 PM
It wasn't RB who told me. I'd hazard a guess that it had been many years since RB could have been described as Nevill's BF. I wasn't told the specifics of the argument, but all these years on, he was still shaken by the memory of the violence of the verbal attack. It must have been as appalling for Nevill if it caused his to break down in front of his friend.
Without knowing the detail and having a signed wit stat not much to go on really. I think the friend might have been Michael Leyland.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on November 27, 2017, 04:24:46 PM
The following vid shows how easy it would be to convert the poppies into heroin. When I say easy I mean it doesn't take a state of the art lab resembling GSK just a makeshift lab. The profits would be vast.
As none of us really know NB, we don't don't know if he was emotional or not but I di think it's safe to say that he did NOT grw poppies for the BM!
I agree our views on the various characters based on interpretation of various material are pretty meaningless. The main reason I said NB doesn't seem the type for emotional outpourings is that I know for a fact the RAF uses psychometric testing for fighter pilots and it seems unlikely anyone overly emotional would qualify. I accept people can compartmentalise.
I've no idea why you are so dismissive of the opium poppies when they appear unexplained:
- No evidence UK gov or other authorities granted permission to UK farmers to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry in 1985.
- If JB's claims of a special licence for the pharma industry as told by Dr Craig were untrue then why wasn't this used against JB? It would show him as less than straight forward.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 03, 2017, 11:36:00 AM
Reading some of the posts on Blue about those lovely 'Essex Boy's'. It seems the drugs ending up on Essex streets originated from Holland with supplies coming in via boat and light aircraft. Apparently the distribution network involved some 50 people which they managed to get down to 5 to increase profits. I don't know if this number was from producer to street seller or just distributors.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 03, 2017, 12:52:04 PM
I recall Jeremy mentioning why they grew them but can't remember the reason or where I read it - I believe they were for medicinal purposes?
JB told Dr Craig WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma ind. This is confirmed by Dr Craig who relayed this to Chief Sup Harris who confirmed in his WS.
The whole thing is a mystery to me. Found the following earlier today it confirms the UK tried growing OP's in 1957 but it didn't take off due to weather conditions.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 05, 2017, 09:48:22 AM
The following vid explains how opium is extracted from poppies. Apparently it is brown when removed. I'm wondering if the substance found in the safe was opium? I believe tests are carried out to check purity.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tlr_w3rXX5o
JB told AE she would find a surprise when she opened the safe. Also in the safe was some correspondence from Roland Pargeter. The surprise appears to have been a substance in the safe which resembled cannabis resin which AE linked to RP on the basis he stayed at WHF in 1974 whilst the Bambers were helping him off drugs. This makes no sense if NB confiscated drugs off of RP in 1974 why would they be in the safe 11 years later? JB was 13 at the time. Why would he recall the incident? Why would it be at the forefront of his mind to pass on to AE ie surprise when open safe? JB was obviously aware off the substance in the safe. If it had been confiscated off of SC surely JB would say as it would be relevant to her his witness stat. Had NB confiscated off of JB he would surely either return it to JB when he departed from WHF or destroy it.
Could the substance in the safe be linked to the opium poppies? Maybe it was about the right time for harvesting and daily checks were being made?
Again the relatives had no right to take this matter into their own hands. The substance should have been handed to the police for analysis.
If NB and JB were both involved in some sort of wrongdoing with the poppies it would explain the phone calls. NB's reluctance to contact the police and JB's dithering. Not only would they fear the police but other criminals they might have been working with.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 05, 2017, 01:30:34 PM
I wrote to JB a while ago about the poppies and this is what he said in a letter dated 22nd July 2015:
"Now this is an odd thing because you believe that the first licence to grown opium poppies was not granted until the naughties. You are of course correct growing a few opium poppies is not illegal in and of itself, its illegal to grow a large quantity for commercial use - it must be otherwise loads of them would be grown and harvested, with the only illegal bit being when the opium is extracted - which could be done in a secret lab.
I'm guessing that we grew them under a sub contract with Kings Seeds of Coggeshall - they organised the trial, it was home office approved as a man from the ministry of agriculture visited to see that all was above board - we had to grow them at least 1/2 a mile from a main road and 1/2 a mile from a footpath.
The bit about me and Dr Craig going by the field growing the poppies is nonsense, we were nowhere near the area where the poppies were being grown.
Noone knew we grew poppies, no criminals could have known, I cannot recall how I came to tell Dr Craig about them, I think he simply asked me what crops we grew on the farm, thing was dad and I used to grow all sorts of new things, like borrage, evening primrose, lupins and fenugreek only on a small scale - though we went a bit mad with the borage cos we made so much money with that crop as we found out how to harvest it without it dropping its seeds. So all that nonsense about me showing Dr Craig an opium poppy is nonsense. It was a passing comment, and Essex police would have been aware - though I'm guessing the licence was with the ministry of AG and Kings Seeds.
Anyway hope that helps".
Kings seeds:
https://www.kingsseeds.com/
Still think it sounds iffy. If NB was growing opium poppies illegally a visit from 'the man at ministry of AG' would provide a plausible explanation to those working/living at WHF: June, JB, BW, LF and other farm workers. Unless the individual was verified by way of photographic evidence and a call made to Min of Ag to confirm the individual was a bona fide employee it's not evidence of anything.
Dr Craig recalled JB saying WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry. What have Kings Seeds got to do with the pharma ind?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on December 06, 2017, 10:50:12 PM
I wrote to JB a while ago about the poppies and this is what he said in a letter dated 22nd July 2015:
"Now this is an odd thing because you believe that the first licence to grown opium poppies was not granted until the naughties. You are of course correct growing a few opium poppies is not illegal in and of itself, its illegal to grow a large quantity for commercial use - it must be otherwise loads of them would be grown and harvested, with the only illegal bit being when the opium is extracted - which could be done in a secret lab.
I'm guessing that we grew them under a sub contract with Kings Seeds of Coggeshall - they organised the trial, it was home office approved as a man from the ministry of agriculture visited to see that all was above board - we had to grow them at least 1/2 a mile from a main road and 1/2 a mile from a footpath.
The bit about me and Dr Craig going by the field growing the poppies is nonsense, we were nowhere near the area where the poppies were being grown.
Noone knew we grew poppies, no criminals could have known, I cannot recall how I came to tell Dr Craig about them, I think he simply asked me what crops we grew on the farm, thing was dad and I used to grow all sorts of new things, like borrage, evening primrose, lupins and fenugreek only on a small scale - though we went a bit mad with the borage cos we made so much money with that crop as we found out how to harvest it without it dropping its seeds. So all that nonsense about me showing Dr Craig an opium poppy is nonsense. It was a passing comment, and Essex police would have been aware - though I'm guessing the licence was with the ministry of AG and Kings Seeds.
Anyway hope that helps".
Kings seeds:
https://www.kingsseeds.com/
Still think it sounds iffy. If NB was growing opium poppies illegally a visit from 'the man at ministry of AG' would provide a plausible explanation to those working/living at WHF: June, JB, BW, LF and other farm workers. Unless the individual was verified by way of photographic evidence and a call made to Min of Ag to confirm the individual was a bona fide employee it's not evidence of anything.
Dr Craig recalled JB saying WHF had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry. What have Kings Seeds got to do with the pharma ind?
Well, someone told Craig - if what he was told was untrue, then it could only have come from Jeremy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 07, 2017, 12:50:08 PM
Well, someone told Craig - if what he was told was untrue, then it could only have come from Jeremy.
JB isn't denying he told Dr Craig about the poppies just that he didn't present him with them. I'm more inclined to go with Dr Criag's version of events especially as he said he thought JB was suffering emotional shock.
Page 179 CAL's book:
"He was carrying a small bunch of opium poppies when Dr Craig caught up with him. Explaining that the farm had a special licence to grow them for the pharmaceutical industry, he walked round to the kitchen yard and let the labrador out of the barn. Following him, Dr Craig felt Jeremy was 'grief stricken' and suffering 'emotional shock'. He said as much to Chief Superintendent Harris before departing, but confirmed that Jeremy was fit for interview".
CAL's source:
"Ian Craig, notes for Essex Police 'A review of the Bamber Killings', November 1986. Unless indicated otherwise, all quotes from Ian Craig in this chapter are from this source". Chapter 21, item 11.
Chief Sup George Harris WS:
"He [Dr Ian Craig] asked if I knew that the farm was especially licensed to grow the opium poppy, which I was not, and as a result we both went to look at a small area in a field on the right hand side of Pages Lane about a quarter of a mile beyond the farmhouse".
Today farmers involved in growing opium poppies for the pharma industry don't require any 'special licence' as it isn't illegal to grow them or a licensable activity. The licensable bit comes when the opium is extracted for medicinal purposes. The Home Office is advised of the farms/farmers involved and writes to confirm 'inviting' the farms/farmers to inform their local police force. Given NB was a magistrate one might have thought he would have a local police contact who he was able to commuicate these facts to and pass them on to relevant personnel?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacFarlan_Smith
(See under present)
Opium poppy cultivation in the United Kingdom does not need a licence, but a licence is required for those wishing to extract opium for medicinal products.
When the UK has legitimately gone into opium poppy production for the 'pharma ind' it has been for specific companies: GSK in 1957 and MacFarlan Smith in 2006. Case related material refers to the 'pharmaceutical industry' which appears convenient as its obscure.
I've been unable to find any evidence of UK based pharma companies procuring homegrown opium poppies during the 80's or farmers cultivating for such other than JB's claims.
I accept there could be an innocent explanation and we know how communications can be genuinely misinterpreted/misunderstood etc. But I also think its suspicious:
- Site of a notorious crime - Claims of phone calls between father and son who appear not to want a police prescene - Same site features arguably the world's most controversial plant growing in questionable circumstances
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 07, 2017, 06:38:14 PM
The Rettendon murders took place a little after 10 years from WHF and only 16 miles away. Are the guys responsible still inside? If so perhaps you could write to them and sound them out? Next time we meet up the beers are on me 8((()*/ That's assuming you live to tell the tale 8)--))
Ironically the name of the farm where the Rettendon murders took place is White House Farm!
If JB said 'Look dad probably didn't want to involve you guys because we're growing opium poppies down on the farm for street heroin. And/or 'I didn't call 999 as I wanted to keep it low key with local bobbies rather than the heavies turning up en masse because dad and me were growing opium poppies for street heroin'.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on December 11, 2017, 07:26:06 PM
Probably because they weren't growing poppies illegally.
That's correct. It isn't illegal in the UK for farmers or anyone to cultivate opium poppies but why would a farmer choose to do so without it appears a legitimate market?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on December 12, 2017, 06:16:51 PM
That's correct. It isn't illegal in the UK for farmers or anyone to cultivate opium poppies but why would a farmer choose to do so without it appears a legitimate market?
The poppies grow wild on what was until recently my uncles farm in Scotland. There are thousands of them every summer.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 12, 2017, 06:23:37 PM
The poppies grow wild on what was until recently my uncles farm in Scotland. There are thousands of them every summer.
If they were growing wild it wouldn't explain JB's claims of a 'special licence' which he told to Dr Craig on 7th Aug. I queried this with JB and here's his response verbatim:
That's correct. It isn't illegal in the UK for farmers or anyone to cultivate opium poppies but why would a farmer choose to do so without it appears a legitimate market?
Holly, you don't know enough about the Bambers and their business to decide what their 'legitimate' market was. You're simply making wild assumptions. It's easy to get carried away and think we know the people involved and their business but there will be a LOT of info about the likes of business dealings that was never made public simply because it had nothing to do with the murders.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 13, 2017, 12:35:00 PM
Holly, you don't know enough about the Bambers and their business to decide what their 'legitimate' market was. You're simply making wild assumptions. It's easy to get carried away and think we know the people involved and their business but there will be a LOT of info about the likes of business dealings that was never made public simply because it had nothing to do with the murders.
Of course the opium poppies have nothing to do with the murders per se.
I don't need to know anything about the Bambers or their businesses to know there's no evidence the UK pharma industry was procurring opium poppies from UK based farmers with the requisite government approval by way of a licence in 1985.
Could it be that NB witnessing the huge profits to be made from illegal drugs through his role as magistrate decided to cultivate opium poppies? Maybe extracting the opium on site and then transferring elsewhere for the manufacturing process? Was the brown substance found in the safe by the relatives opium? Maybe some was being pulled off daily to check for purity and the right time to harvest?
Others can say my theories are wild but seem to lack any counter arguments that cover all the known facts:
- JB has consistently claimed WHF had a licence to cultivate opium poppies for the pharma industry
- JB reiterated the above to Dr Craig on 7th Aug contained in written testimony
- Dr Craig reiterated the above to Chief Sup Harris on 7th Aug contained in written testimony
- Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris took it upon themselves to take a look at the poppies
- According to my communication with JB a representative from the Ministry of Agriculture called at WHF to see all was above board. The poppies had to be cultivated 1/2 a mile from roads and footpaths. Assuming a representative turned up it is not evidence of anything unless the individual was verified by way of photographic evidence.
- There's no evidence the UK pharma industry was procurring opium poppies from UK based farmers with the requisite government approval by way of a licence in 1985.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 13, 2017, 12:51:15 PM
Well, well, well ...... I have found another reference to the opium poppies. It is in Colin's book (Chapter 3, page 43). He states that Stan Jones told him "Nevill was growing opium under a special government license for the pharmaceutical indistry". Obviously he was told this by Jeremy and it led to Sheila being tested for narcotics. The tests proved negative for cocaine BUT he goes on to say that there was an"unusually high level of haloperidol" in her system.
Why would DS Jones relay the above to CC? Farmers do not require a licence to cultivate opium poppies. Only those authorised to remove the opium and manufacture into legal drugs require government approval by way of a licence.
All victims were checked for drugs and alcohol. This is standard procedure and had nothing whatsoever to do with the opium poppies. There wasn't an unusually high level of haloperidol in SC's system. The level was low within the moderate range.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 13, 2017, 01:27:36 PM
There also appears to be a lack of transparency by reference to the pharmaceutical industry. In 1957 GlaxoSmithKline was unsuccessful in procuring opium from cultivating opium poppies produced by UK farmers. In 2002 to present Smith MacFarlane have been successful procuring opium from cultivating opium poppies produced by UK farmers. These are the only 2 pharma companies there's evidence of procuring opium from UK based farmers.
- NB/WHF was an established famer/farm
- NB witnessed the huge demand and profits from illegal drugs through his role as magistrate
- NB had some knowledge of these things from WW2 (morphine) and agricultural college
- According to RB's WS, NB had a low regard for the competence of EP referring to them as "Dad's Army"
- NB would have access to local intelligence in his role as magistrate eg police operations and which criminals to approach to get an intro to top tier.
- NB's reputation would go before him allowing him/WHF to fall under the radar
- 32 years ago most lived in blissful ignorance and such an operation could easily fall under the radar. If NB made a big thing about the man from the Ministry of Agriculture turning up to the likes of June, Babs Wilson, Len Foakes (and even JB) it could just as easily be a drug baron. NB could simply have said to his family/employees that it had to be kept quiet to prevent the poppies falling into the hands of criminals! Hence JB's claims of growing 1/2 a mile from roads/footpaths.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 13, 2017, 03:26:53 PM
Why would DS Jones relay the above to CC? Farmers do not require a licence to cultivate opium poppies. Only those authorised to remove the opium and manufacture into legal drugs require government approval by way of a licence.
All victims were checked for drugs and alcohol. This is standard procedure and had nothing whatsoever to do with the opium poppies. There wasn't an unusually high level of haloperidol in SC's system. The level was low within the moderate range.
Dr Vanezis obtained samples from all victims to enable tests for drugs and alcohol which were passed to the relevant expert at FSS for analysis:
Of course the opium poppies have nothing to do with the murders per se.
I don't need to know anything about the Bambers or their businesses to know there's no evidence the UK pharma industry was procurring opium poppies from UK based farmers with the requisite government approval by way of a licence in 1985.
Could it be that NB witnessing the huge profits to be made from illegal drugs through his role as magistrate decided to cultivate opium poppies? Maybe extracting the opium on site and then transferring elsewhere for the manufacturing process? Was the brown substance found in the safe by the relatives opium? Maybe some was being pulled off daily to check for purity and the right time to harvest?
Others can say my theories are wild but seem to lack any counter arguments that cover all the known facts:
- JB has consistently claimed WHF had a licence to cultivate opium poppies for the pharma industry
- JB reiterated the above to Dr Craig on 7th Aug contained in written testimony
- Dr Craig reiterated the above to Chief Sup Harris on 7th Aug contained in written testimony
- Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris took it upon themselves to take a look at the poppies
- According to my communication with JB a representative from the Ministry of Agriculture called at WHF to see all was above board. The poppies had to be cultivated 1/2 a mile from roads and footpaths. Assuming a representative turned up it is not evidence of anything unless the individual was verified by way of photographic evidence.
- There's no evidence the UK pharma industry was procurring opium poppies from UK based farmers with the requisite government approval by way of a licence in 1985.
Neither is there evidence that they weren't.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 14, 2017, 09:15:47 AM
Only one way to confirm and that's write to the Home Office/Ministry of Agriculture (I think it's now known as Dept environment, food and rural affairs (DEFRA) asking if it granted any special licences around the 80's for UK based farmers to cultivate opium poppies for pharmaceutical companies.
Only one way to confirm and that's write to the Home Office/Ministry of Agriculture (I think it's now known as Dept environment, food and rural affairs (DEFRA) asking if it granted any special licences around the 80's for UK based farmers to cultivate opium poppies for pharmaceutical companies.
JB said a man from the ministry of agriculture visited the farm to ensure all was above board. According to JB this man told NB/JB the poppies had to be grown 1/2 a mile from roads/footpaths. The dept should have some record of what its policy and procedures were at that time.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 14, 2017, 12:45:17 PM
Assuming the relevant gov dept are in a position to respond to a request for information under the 'freedom of information act' I think it's a racing cert the relevant dept will confirm that NB/WHF were not granted any special gov licence to grow opium poppies let alone the ministry of agriculture sending a representative to ensure all was above board who according to JB said the opium producing poppies must be grown 1/2 a mile from roads/footpaths. Why would it be otherwise when the legislation under the misuse of drugs act 1971 clearly sets out the position. The legislation was ameneded/updated in 2001 which has no bearing on NB/WHF.
Here's another similar request for info where the individual seeking info was advised by a representative from the Home Office of the following:
The activity of cultivating opium poppies (papaver somniferum) for medicinal use or any other use is not a licensable activity as prescribed in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.
It seems there's little point in writing to confirm since the legislation pertaining to the cultivation of opium poppies by UK farmers in 1985 falls under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and is set out in the letter above.
WHF/NB did not require a licence to cultivate opium poppies for the pharmaceutical industry since it is not a licensable acitivity. As such the Home Office would not send a representative to WHF to check all was above board as per JB's claims let alone dictate where on the farm the plants can and can't be grown. So what's it all about? Seems to me either JB is BSing for whatever reason(s) or something dodgy was going on down on the farm!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 14, 2017, 01:23:43 PM
So to clarify the relevant points:
- WHF 7th Aug '85 according to Dr Craig's testimony he found JB clutching a bunch of opium poppies which he picked from a field upon being told the news about his family. JB told Dr Craig WHF has a special licence to produce them for the pharma ind.
- Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if he was aware WHF had a special licence. He said he did not. The pair then went to take a look at the poppies. Confirmed in Dr Craig and Chief Sup Harris' testimony.
- There's no evidence UK based pharma companies were procuring opium from poppies grown by UK farmers in 1985. As a result I wrote to JB for clarification and he responded as follows:
"Now this is an odd thing because you believe that the first licence to grown opium poppies was not granted until the naughties. You are of course correct growing a few opium poppies is not illegal in and of itself, its illegal to grow a large quantity for commercial use - it must be otherwise loads of them would be grown and harvested, with the only illegal bit being when the opium is extracted - which could be done in a secret lab.
I'm guessing that we grew them under a sub contract with Kings Seeds of Coggeshall - they organised the trial, it was home office approved as a man from the ministry of agriculture visited to see that all was above board - we had to grow them at least 1/2 a mile from a main road and 1/2 a mile from a footpath.
The bit about me and Dr Craig going by the field growing the poppies is nonsense, we were nowhere near the area where the poppies were being grown.
Noone knew we grew poppies, no criminals could have known, I cannot recall how I came to tell Dr Craig about them, I think he simply asked me what crops we grew on the farm, thing was dad and I used to grow all sorts of new things, like borrage, evening primrose, lupins and fenugreek only on a small scale - though we went a bit mad with the borage cos we made so much money with that crop as we found out how to harvest it without it dropping its seeds. So all that nonsense about me showing Dr Craig an opium poppy is nonsense. It was a passing comment, and Essex police would have been aware - though I'm guessing the licence was with the ministry of AG and Kings Seeds.
Anyway hope that helps".
- The above is at odds with the legislation and letters from the Home Office to members of the public who have sought to clarify the cultivation of opium poppies:
You can see from posts/links on this thread that cultivating opium poppies is not a licensable activity as per the misuse of drugs act 1971 and information provided by the Home Office under the freedom of information act 2000. If you disagree please provide an explanation along with supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 15, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
JB was clearly aware opium poppies were being grown at WHF. He claimed in 1985 (and in 2015 when he wrote to me) they were for the pharma ind. For reasons stated in this thread along with supporting evidence this seems most unlikely.
NB must have been aware what was growing on the land he lived on and managed and was ultimately repsonsible for. I guess there's an outside chance JB instigated the whole thing and sold NB the idea.
- Shortly before or after learning of his family's demise according to Dr Craig JB went to the site of the opium poppies and picked a bunch. When Dr Craig spoke with JB, JB informed him the farm had a 'special licence' to grow the popies for the pharma ind. Why did JB choose this course of action? Was he in emotional pain and was hoping to get a high off the poppies? (Dr Craig said he thought JB was grief stricken and in emotional shock). Or was he hoping to pre-empt any questions and thought he would get in first? Or was he just wandering around a bit demented? Maybe NB had withheld the true purpose of the poppies but JB suspected? Maybe JB initially thought the criminals they were working with might have attempted to do them over and he went to observe the state of the poppies?
- As I understand it opium poppies are harvested on a dry warm day, like most harvesting I guess! They are scored in the morning and white opium oozes out which is left to dry on the poppy heads until it dries and turns brown. It is then scraped off. I understand tests can be carried out to check the purity. This is done by burning on foil and makes me wonder if the substance found in the safe by the relatives was in fact opium rather than cannabis resin from Roland Pargeter's stay at WHF in 1974. JB told AE she would find a surprise when she opened the safe.
How much did JB know and to what to degree was he involved?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on December 17, 2017, 10:43:13 AM
Please cease with the unsubstantiated references to a black market trade in poppies.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on December 17, 2017, 10:04:27 PM
Look what I just come accross. John Eaton thought Osea Island was being used to import drugs!
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 08:44:56 AM
I've thought for a long time now illegal drugs play a much bigger role in this case than we currently fully understand.
I'm a bit surprised that you have gone off down this hole - you're one of the more level-headed posters. I don't know how you can't see that this is way off? %56&
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 11:46:48 AM
I'm a bit surprised that you have gone off down this hole - you're one of the more level-headed posters. I don't know how you can't see that this is way off? %56&
I believe illegal drugs play a significant role in the case as per my posts on this thread and the one below entitled 'Illegal drugs'.
I accept the WS David uploaded isn't proof of anything but it does lend support to my theories outlined in this thread.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on December 18, 2017, 12:25:34 PM
Well, if you want to pursue that - it's your time to waste.
Unless anything else surfaces I think this aspect of the case has pretty much reached its end point in terms of online debate. We will have to wait and see if anything surfaces offline!
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 02:49:41 PM
Look what I just come accross. John Eaton thought Osea Island was being used to import drugs!
I didn't even realise there was an Osea island I thought it was just a section of coast. Anyway it seems the island was/is home to an alcohol/drug treatment centre:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osea_Island
I think Essex has always been synonymous with drugs due to its proximity to London/East End criminals and gateway to Europe.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on December 18, 2017, 04:19:32 PM
I didn't even realise there was an Osea island I thought it was just a section of coast. Anyway it seems the island was/is home to an alcohol/drug treatment centre:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osea_Island
I think Essex has always been synonymous with drugs due to its proximity to London/East End criminals and gateway to Europe.
Word has it -although I can't verify- that the alcohol rehab centre failed because alcohol was imported. It's now a very up-market, away from the hoi poloi, holiday retreat/private party/wedding venue................albeit, self catering.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 04:26:03 PM
Word has it -although I can't verify- that the alcohol rehab centre failed because alcohol was imported. It's now a very up-market, away from the hoi poloi, holiday retreat/private party/wedding venue................albeit, self catering.
It seems there's still some sort of rehab clinic there taken over by someone else?
Do you know if the relatives have any interests in the island?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on December 18, 2017, 04:47:02 PM
It seems there's still some sort of rehab clinic there taken over by someone else?
Do you know if the relatives have any interests in the island?
It was owned by the Carringtons/Charringtons? a family of philanthropists -there's a family with that name which lives in Layer Marney Towers which is only a few miles away. There's nothing I've seen which suggests that the relatives have an interest. Their holiday park -opposite Osea Island- is really a very special place, now.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: david1819 on December 18, 2017, 10:04:09 PM
I've thought for a long time now illegal drugs play a much bigger role in this case than we currently fully understand.
I remain sceptical about the whole idea. There are several things you need to consider.
1. Growing opium for illegal production of Heroin in the UK is more or less unheard of. There is no money to be made. Illegal Opiates are lucrative because farmers in Afganistan, Turkey, Laos and Vietnam grow opium for peanuts. poor nations with perfect weather conditions. I cannot see any UK farmer seeing it worth while.
2. The pharmaceutical industry is much bigger and more lucrative than the illegal drug industry. Legitimate and regulated opium sells for a lot more than what peasant farmers in Afganistan and Laos charge.
3. Just because there was no opium in Neville's blood test does not rule out self medication because the growing season had not finished.
4. The police found out about the opium at WHF and made no big deal about it. This supports the argument that production was legal. That "special license" could have been the authorities using their discretion to deal with a short supply of the drug.
5. If Neville was the heroin kingpin of Essex using Pharmacuticals as a ruse. Its most likely Jeremy was not in on it and took Nevills word for it. Otherwise he would not have called the police to the farm nor would he unwittingly walk Dr Craig into the opium plantation.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 10:26:00 PM
I remain sceptical about the whole idea. There are several things you need to consider.
1. Growing opium for illegal production of Heroin in the UK is more or less unheard of. There is no money to be made. Illegal Opiates are lucrative because farmers in Afganistan, Turkey, Laos and Vietnam grow opium for peanuts. poor nations with perfect weather conditions. I cannot see any UK farmer seeing it worth while.
I don't think it's a case of there's no money rather criminals wouldn't have the opportunity or wherewithal to cultivate and organise the additional processes.
2. The pharmaceutical industry is much bigger and more lucrative than the illegal drug industry. Legitimate and regulated opium sells for a lot more than what peasant farmers in Afganistan and Laos charge.
If someone had the means to cultivate and organise the additional processes for say heroin this would potentially be far more lucrative than simply cultivating opium poppies for the pharma ind.
3. Just because there was no opium in Neville's blood test does not rule out self medication because the growing season had not finished.
I think if someone had a penchant for morphine or heroin etc they would get their fix somehow and not wait around for the growing season.
4. The police found out about the opium at WHF and made no big deal about it. This supports the argument that production was legal. That "special license" could have been the authorities using their discretion to deal with a short supply of the drug.
How do you know EP investigated the matter? Have you seen a copy of the 'special licence' JB claims existed? Which pharma company was WHF supposedly cultivating the opium poppies for?
5. If Neville was the heroin kingpin of Essex using Pharmacuticals as a ruse. Its most likely Jeremy was not in on it and took Nevills word for it. Otherwise he would not have called the police to the farm nor would he unwittingly walk Dr Craig into the opium plantation.
The jury's out on that one.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 18, 2017, 10:27:40 PM
By Europol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o4zOMNlSco
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 19, 2017, 02:57:33 PM
David what do make of JB's claims that a man from the Min of Ag visited WHF to check all was above board and advised that the OP's had to be grown 1/2 a mile away from roads/footpaths? Bearing in mind cultivating OP's is not a licensable activity as such the Home Office/Min of Ag (Defra) would have no interest/responsibility in the matter.
It seems many of the chemicals commonly used in the production of H are commonly available to the farming community through access to agrochemicals? Eg Acetic Anhydride:
I seem to recall somewhere I read when it said JB mooted the idea of drugging the family he decided against in that any such chemicals he could get hold of via the farm would be traceable? I don't believe JB ever had any intention of drugging the family but someone has gone down the route of considering what chemicals are available to farmders if there's any truth in the statement re farmers/chemicals?
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 19, 2017, 03:21:05 PM
It was owned by the Carringtons/Charringtons? a family of philanthropists -there's a family with that name which lives in Layer Marney Towers which is only a few miles away. There's nothing I've seen which suggests that the relatives have an interest. Their holiday park -opposite Osea Island- is really a very special place, now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlB6j6E8lA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgSmxmLWn0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pXClK6VSJM
The last vid is filmed from a light aircraft and you can see how it would be attractive to drug smugglers/dealers in terms of boats and light aircraft.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: John on December 19, 2017, 10:50:31 PM
I didn't even realise there was an Osea island I thought it was just a section of coast. Anyway it seems the island was/is home to an alcohol/drug treatment centre:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osea_Island
I think Essex has always been synonymous with drugs due to its proximity to London/East End criminals and gateway to Europe.
Osea Island in relation to Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: APRIL on December 20, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
Osea Island in relation to Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
I was interested to see how close is Osea to the St Lawrence/Stone/Southminster area. This, rather than Heybridge/Mill Beach/Goldhanger area, has long held a reputation for dodgy goings on. Allegedly, there are some very shady characters who reside there in electronically gated mansions with river access.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2017, 01:14:38 PM
Who needs the caribbean when you have Osea Island?!
This place would be ideal for manufacturing drugs with it cut off for most of the day and night other than a few hours at low tide which exposes a road of sorts linking the mainland to the island. Light aircraft could land and take off. Same for small boats arriving and departing.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 08:23:43 PM
This place would be ideal for manufacturing drugs with it cut off for most of the day and night other than a few hours at low tide which exposes a road of sorts linking the mainland to the island. Light aircraft could land and take off. Same for small boats arriving and departing.
I note chartered surveyor George Nicholls refers to the poppies grown at WHF as just that and makes no reference to opium poppies. He also refers to the fact that '85 was the first year they had grown them and two people calling whilst he was there who NB referred to as nasty pieces!
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Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 08:29:42 PM
G-Unit I'm sure I've seen you and Sadie discuss drug production on MM board although I've no idea in what context. Any thoughts on opium poppies grown at WHF?
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Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: G-Unit on April 17, 2020, 08:55:07 PM
Osea Island in relation to Goldhanger and Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
Mabel Speakman's (previously Bunting) brother Jack Bunting was farming on Osea Island in 1914 when his wife died. His two daughters Betty and Alice were subsequently brought up by Mabel and her husband along with Pamela and June. Betty married Thomas Howie and they farmed Chappel Farm near Vaulty.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on April 17, 2020, 09:03:44 PM
I note chartered surveyor George Nicholls refers to the poppies grown at WHF as just that and makes no reference to opium poppies. He also refers to the fact that '85 was the first year they had grown them and two people calling whilst he was there who NB referred to as nasty pieces!
Obviously Nevill was a drug lord and two Essex Colombians were after him for dealing on their patch. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 09:23:50 PM
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 09:36:27 PM
Here's an excerpt from CC's book but like most aspects of this case it's ambiguous and not straightforward!
CC said JB told DS Jones he refused to say anything about the drugs. CC assumed JB was referring to a possibility SC was involved with drugs through Freddy. Whereas DS Jones assumed JB was referring to the opium poppies.
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Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 09:41:13 PM
We've been all through this before Caro and noone can explain the opium poppies.
No Holly, they have explained but you refuse (like a lot of other things) to accept anything other than your own theory. To suggest that Nevill was growing these poppies illegally in full view of anyone and everyone is fanciful. I suppose he had a sweatshop in the barn full of trafficked slaves to refine it for him and an army of street sellers? Mind you, I'm sure Jeremy would have been happy to manage that side of things - pity Nevill didn't suggest it, he may never have been shot and Bamber would have been inside as a drugs's baron instead of a ..... 8(8-))
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 10:11:07 PM
No Holly, they have explained but you refuse (like a lot of other things) to accept anything other than your own theory. To suggest that Nevill was growing these poppies illegally in full view of anyone and everyone is fanciful. I suppose he had a sweatshop in the barn full of trafficked slaves to refine it for him and an army of street sellers? Mind you, I'm sure Jeremy would have been happy to manage that side of things - pity Nevill didn't suggest it, he may never have been shot and Bamber would have been inside as a drugs's baron instead of a ..... 8(8-))
Who has explained?
I don't have any firm theories on the opium poppies.
The poppies were not grown in full view of anyone and everyone.
I don't criticise your beliefs/theories re aspects of the case eg wallet, trailer, NB sleeping in SC's bed with SC sleeping with June on 7th Aug.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: G-Unit on April 17, 2020, 10:19:51 PM
G-Unit I'm sure I've seen you and Sadie discuss drug production on MM board although I've no idea in what context. Any thoughts on opium poppies grown at WHF?
Opium poppies are grown in that part of the country; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum#/media/File:Poppy_Fields_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1361923.jpg
A licence was mentioned, which suggests medicinal use perhaps? Morphine and other drugs come from these plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Caroline on April 17, 2020, 10:28:19 PM
Opium poppies are grown in that part of the country; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum#/media/File:Poppy_Fields_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1361923.jpg
A licence was mentioned, which suggests medicinal use perhaps? Morphine and other drugs come from these plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum
It's all been said before, Holly would rather believe Nevill was a drug kingpin.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 17, 2020, 10:28:51 PM
Opium poppies are grown in that part of the country; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum#/media/File:Poppy_Fields_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1361923.jpg
A licence was mentioned, which suggests medicinal use perhaps? Morphine and other drugs come from these plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_somniferum
Yes. It's very odd because JB told Dr Craig on 7th Aug that the farm had a licence to produce opium for the pharma ind but in this country the first licence granted to a UK pharma Co to produce opium in UK didn't take place until noughties. And the farms are not licenced it is the pharma co. The farm simply provides the land for the pharma co to grow the poppies.
If you're interested we went over it all in some detail on this thread.
Title: Re: Opium Poppies Grown at WHF?
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2020, 10:29:43 PM