Was Madeleine McCann carried over the rocks and dumped in the sea?
Read Mark Harrison's brief (handed to him by Amaral's boss, whose name began with E, and who, himself, died of cancer RIP).
Was Madeleine McCann carried over the rocks and dumped in the sea?
Read Mark Harrison's brief (handed to him by Amaral's boss, whose name began with E, and who, himself, died of cancer RIP).
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
(Mark Harrison, penultimate sentence and paragraph of his third and final report).
Fishing spot on the rocks from the church.Do you honestly think that any man carrying an 'illicit' child would venture across that rocky terrain in the dark ?
(http://www.luz-info.com/images/portugal/fishing.jpg)
Do you honestly think that any man carrying an 'illicit' child would venture across that rocky terrain in the dark ?I may well be wrong, but that does not look like the rocks to the S of the church. The normal angling spot is to the west of Luz. Rua Calheta.
Cos I don't.
I have measured what you have shown on GE and it would be about 50 metres on really rocky terrain from the nearest bit of promenade, (by the fortezela.)
Also from the depth of the shadows, it appears that there is quite a substantial drop from that promenade down to the rock face. Too great a drop to be contemplated after dark and carrying a child
Shining please correct me if I am wrong, cos I have worked this out from GE images alone and realise I could be mistaken
@pathfinder:
So do you concede that Mark Harrison was a given a brief, by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered, investigated it, could find no basis to substantiate the accusation and signed off his third (and final) report by making that clear?
Or don't you?
And if you don't, why not?
Mark Harrison was investigating a predator taking her and dumping the body. This report was written before the dogs arrived (23/07/2007). The dog alerts changed everything.
Fishing on rocks from the church. Easy for anyone to go into the sea.Pathfinder, you maybe wrong.
(http://www.luz-info.com/images/portugal/khluz047a.jpg)
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56361c56e4b0767213f6dfe7/5636316ee4b06f8cdab80163/5636316ee4b00b97e6211a70/1446392178894/Rocks-Near-Praia-da-Luz.jpg?format=750w)
(http://algarve.net.pl/pic/0031-praia-da-luz.jpg)
(http://www.mayerapartments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/praia-da-luz-fortaleza-and-.jpg)
I may well be wrong, but that does not look like the rocks to the S of the church. The normal angling spot is to the west of Luz. Rua Calheta.Thank you, Shining.
Interesting interlude.
But the fact remains.
Kate and Gerry were offered the choice between Kate finding (and concealing!) 'a corpse' (that of her loved and cherished daughter, Madeleine) or (the pair of them) facing murder charges.
That fits in precisely with Harrison being handed a brief, by Amaral's boss (whose name began with 'E') to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered, and working to it.
Exactly what Harrison says in his reports.
He offered to explore other possibilities or scenarios (sic) on request .
There is no evidence he was requested to do so.
Harrison concludes his final report by saying that he, personally, had no clue what happened to Madeleine.
Are they the rocks where it was proven that no one would have the strength to throw a body into the sea from?
Do you have an independent cite for this?
Mark Harrison would not have stated that he was considering, solely, the possibility that Madeleine had been murdered unless he had been handed a brief to consider, solely, that possibility; still less would he have offered to consider other possibilities or scenarios.
Mark Harrison would not have concluded his final report with a tentative (and conditional) opinion that if Madeleine was dead, he found it most likely her remains had been jettisoned into the sea if (as claimed by Amaral) he had directed that a body (of a definitely dead Madeleine) should be sought in the immediate surrounds of PdL and apartment 5a.
Harrison certainly would not have hinted (as claimed by Amaral) that Kate and Gerry might be, directly, linked to Madeleine's disappearance given the way he concluded his final report.
All inferences drawn by you and being passed off as fact it would seem.
If Maddie had been thrown into the sea here surely her body would simply have been eased up at the next tide
That would depend on the ocean currents and whether the body had been wrapped and weighted.Well that rules Smithman out then doesn't it?
Well that rules Smithman out then doesn't it?
How could he suddenly find something substantial enough to securely wrap a weight to the body to sink it?
If the person who some believe Smithman to be had wrapped and weighted a little body and thrown it into the sea:
a) there would seem to be a fairly strong likelihood that it would have been revealed by receding tides (unless a boat had been used...)
b) doing so would have required time and means that don't appear feasible
c) how would that fit with Amaral's frozen, then transported in the Scenic, theory?
d) when and how would this weighted "package" have been recuperated without anyone noticing?
If the person who some believe Smithman to be had wrapped and weighted a little body and thrown it into the sea:
a) there would seem to be a fairly strong likelihood that it would have been revealed by receding tides (unless a boat had been used...)
b) doing so would have required time and means that don't appear feasible
c) how would that fit with Amaral's frozen, then transported in the Scenic, theory?
d) when and how would this weighted "package" have been recuperated without anyone noticing?
a) It would depend on ocean currents velocities.
b) True.
c) It wouldn't.
d) Who knows? but if the objective was to dispose of rather than recover later is that important ?
This seems to be growing like Topsy from what originally had been a simple statement.
a) It would depend on ocean currents velocities.
b) True.
c) It wouldn't.
d) Who knows? but if the objective was to dispose of rather than recover later is that important ?
This seems to be growing like Topsy from what originally had been a simple statement.
Is what important? The credibility of Amaral's theory? It is to some...
So let's see. "Smithman" dumps her in the sea, after discovering her dead from a fall behind the sofa while potentially lethally overdosed with a product that has no sedating properties. Then somehow recuperates it with the world watching. Arranges for it to be placed in some stranger's freezer. Recuperates it from said freezer weeks later to transport it in the Scenic, possibly towards Huelva in the company of various other people. For some unknown reason, they change their minds and drive it back to sneak it underneath the open coffin of an elderly lady back in the PdL church or wherever this vigil took place.
I've watched some bizarre TV scenarios before, but this takes the pastel de nata...
Sadie, People fish off piers so what are you going on about heights. If you pass the church it takes you to the rocks I've shown in my pics.
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/76103835-kate-mccann-sits-on-rocks-after-attending-a-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=R4V%2FQay2ANwpmCZhkZDSEgNhkv%2FaslYHhSy3zJbWsaSF31jX4luTgM9KDHvuJQcC2GfDv4Hqr3OXgMHybT9tDg%3D%3D)(http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/76103814-kate-mccann-walks-over-rocks-on-a-beach-with-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=R4V%2FQay2ANwpmCZhkZDSEnQCn0zz0AOFuVo5g2EYR1aP9WhxVYTHrbWYb0YlbOWrQ6eKFeMxYY4KyfP1%2F%2BMQQg%3D%3D)
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/76103715-kate-and-gerry-mccann-sit-on-rocks-after-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=R4V%2FQay2ANwpmCZhkZDSEiCBtLLFDGrudeP1MzEIFCTjQlQbFOIPkUYwIjo6xESQ8EWAdcHS1zwKq9zEKzbJ1w%3D%3D)
No anyone can throw somebody into the sea from there. That was referring to throwing a body from the cliffs/Rocha Negra.Neither can they from Kates spot by the church / fortezela. The spot that you showed. See the jumble of upended rocks that would have to have been clambered over to get anywhere near the sea? No-one would be able to do that in the dark carrying a body.
Re New thread
Re: Was Madeleine McCann carried over the rocks and dumped in the sea?
The answer is NO. Definitely NO
Some backing information perhaps?We appear to be discussing Smithman and we appear to be talking about the rocks to the south of the church. Please give me a nod if I have got these bits wrong.
We appear to be discussing Smithman and we appear to be talking about the rocks to the south of the church. Please give me a nod if I have got these bits wrong.
Smithman was seen around 10pm. Low tide was at 10pm. Harrison checked the currents. The conclusion was the body would get washed up on the incoming tide, or float to the east and get trapped by the headland.
Whether Harrison considered that Smithman might have been going to the west beach in Luz, had access to one of the rowboats there, and access to a large body bag + weights - I can't see that from the files.
But it is not someone going helter-skelter to the rocks, chucking a body in, and hoping.
I was meaning more to Sadie's fiat no.I appreciate that fully.
Re New thread
Re: Was Madeleine McCann carried over the rocks and dumped in the sea?
The answer is NO. Definitely NO
I don't think that happened but it is possible. It is not hard to get to the water Sadie as this video proves.
Can you give me the video address please, PF. Something had happened to the link from this forum to me and I cant play any videos that the rest of you can.http://youtu.be/CcuMowrbPDw
Can you give me the video address please, PF. Something had happened to the link from this forum to me and I cant play any videos that the rest of you can.
That is the full video so you can stop your constant accusations of disinformation. My information is spot on.But I cant see it.
But I cant see it.Video address is http://youtu.be/CcuMowrbPDw
Please will you give me the video address so that I can judge for myself
http://youtu.be/CcuMowrbPDwI can't see why anyone would have Pegasus on block, but just in case that is the issue here, I'm simply bumping to ensure Sadie gets the link from Pegasus.
This is due south of the church. At 0m26s the large white building is restauarants including Chaplins (yellow sign) and left of Chaplins you can see a small part of the church. Between church and camera is visible the viewing platform under which is a large circular drain outlet.
Nighttime video of the same rocky areaThanks, I had forgotten about that. I notice that Mr Ligg is casting a distinct shadow from the video light, so he hasn't risked a broken leg or a turned ankle either.
http://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=20m29s
Thanks, I had forgotten about that. I notice that Mr Ligg is casting a distinct shadow from the video light, so he hasn't risked a broken leg or a turned ankle either.
After that it appears to be speculation. For some reason, Mr Ligg asserts that the rocks were not searched that night. I do not know whether they were or not, as I can find no evidence one way or the other.
Then he does the rainwater drain. He asserts there are at least 8 of these, which I think is nonsense. He asserts the drain was not searched. I do not know whether it was or not. I believe that on both dog visits to Luz, no dog was put into this drain to find if it alerted. Presumably, neither the original investigation nor OG thought it relevant. To be fair to Mr Ligg, he might not have known where Mr Grime's dogs were deployed, and he certainly couldn't know about the OG dogs.
Do you know anyone who searched the rocks that night? I think there was a lack of torches for the volunteers to do any proper search in that location as Mr Ligg points out. Easy to hide something out there if not properly searched and I agree.The one thing we know in this respect, because it is in the files, is that some torches were available.
I can't see why anyone would have Pegasus on block, but just in case that is the issue here, I'm simply bumping to ensure Sadie gets the link from Pegasus.Thankyou Pegasus and thank you Shining. Very good of you both.
Sadie, it's at http://youtu.be/CcuMowrbPDw Thank you, Pegasus.
I'll leave folks to make up their own mind as to whether this is practical, at night whilst carrying 12 to 16kg. I am not willing to conduct that experiment.
Thankyou Pegasus and thank you Shining. Very good of you both.
And neither would I want negotiate that morass of rocks after dark .... and carrying a stolen child.
Soz PF, but I think you have hit a dead wall here.
Maybe further west where Shining suggested your one photo might be of, but a hell of a way to walk carrying a stolen or dead child .... and then some mighty rough ground to clamber over. Nah, I don't think so.
So, tbh, I think you are barking up the wrong tree, Pathfinder
I must be on the right track if you disagree so thanks 8((()*/ Amaral said there was a witness who saw somebody at the beach. Guess who?
Oh do tell
Just at 22:00 the full Moon (98%) appeared in the sea horizon. At 22:30 it was at elevation 5º. Remember the angular size of Moon is 0.5º.
Gerry McCann. I always found it strange that Kate in her book said they searched ditches, wasteland, bushes, holes? bins but not the nearby beach.
@)(++(*
So Amaral said that Gerry McCann was on the rocks on May 3rd.? At what time?
Which rocks were they?
BTW, we have photos of Gerry searching by the rocks on the beaches.
Just at 22:00 the full Moon (98%) appeared in the sea horizon. At 22:30 it was at elevation 5º. Remember the angular size of Moon is 0.5º.Although I cannot claim to fully understand this info, I think that on these terribly rocky beaches, such a low level moon shine (?from the east?) would create deep shadows, making it thoroughly dangerous to even try traversing such rocks.
Although I cannot claim to fully understand this info, I think that on these terribly rocky beaches, such a low level moon shine (?from the east?) would create deep shadows, making it thoroughly dangerous to even try traversing such rocks.
I do hope that Shining is able to check the situation as Heri suggests. Can someone go with you Shining?
Thankyou Heri for your original and factual input.
No. I think the Moon illuminated the rocks so it was possible to a person who knew the place going to the seashore.
You seem to be answering yourself.