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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on June 24, 2016, 12:13:37 AM
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Gonçalo Amaral says that information provided by a woman who saw Maddie's father walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club holiday resort in Praia da Luz, Algarve, May 3, 2007 (seven years ago), a witness emerged: a British tourist who said she saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by the former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared.
"We tried to recover this testimony and the documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Still do not know who this person is and where it is," said Goncalo Amaral.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=2&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&tl=en&u=http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie&usg=ALkJrhht5SHzMzbyOQE2ZnKxk_ZTFcO6HQ
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie
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As regards who saw GM at the beach on the night, unless you believe GA just makes things up and nothng else, then read here...
http://portugalresident.com/new-revelations-as-mccanns-go-all-out-for-€1-million-in-damages
As Gerry McCann was due to testify today (June 16) in the long-running civil action for defamation that he and wife Kate have taken out against former detective Gonçalo Amaral, damning new claims about his behaviour on the night three-year-old Madeleine disappeared have appeared in the Portuguese press.
On Sunday, the headline of a story carried by Correio da Manhã proclaimed “Gerry searched for Maddie drunk”, while in the evening the policeman whose inconvenient theory the couple is demanding over a million euros in damages for went on television to describe how a key witness had placed Gerry McCann on Luz beach on the night Madeleine went missing - but how that witness’ testimony has since been “wiped from police records”.
The first story hinged on an account from farmer and former fisherman Cândido Furtado who lives a short walk from Luz church overlooking the beach.
Furtado told journalists how he had seen Gerry McCann “totally drunk” calling Madeleine’s name in the street in the early hours of the morning after she reportedly vanished.
“The father was walking at 1am with a bottle of wine in his hand,” Furtado told CM.
“He was calling the child’s name outside my door, and I asked him ‘what kind of noise is this?’ He said: ‘Menina, menina, embora, embora’.”
Father and grandfather Furtado said he told Gerry McCann to call the police, and then went fishing.
But as CM adds, “he had no doubts that Gerry McCann was drunk”. “You could see it instantly, by the way he was walking,” he told the paper.
Intriguingly, hours later, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral went on air on CMTV to say Gerry McCann had also been seen on the beach on the night Madeleine went missing - but that the witness who placed him there (a British tourist) had her testimony wiped from police records.
“We have tried to recover the testimony and the documents that related to it. They simply disappeared. Still today we don’t know who this person is, or where she is,” he told the news channel.
Even more intriguing perhaps is a letter received in The Resident offices today claiming that Madeleine’s body is indeed buried in Praia da Luz, but not in any of the places searched so far.
Madeleine will be found under a nearby driveway to a private house, “very possibly inside a missing carry all tennis bag", wrote South African investigator Martin Van Wyk, who maintains the truth lies with the Tapas 13 - not the Tapas 7 “as everybody was made to believe”.
Adding that he knows his email, sent to a number of news sources and investigating police, “will be pushed to one side”, Wyk advises recipients “do not delete it, as you will later refer back to it and be calling me”.
As we wrote up these developments, Sky News reported that Gerry and Kate McCann had not yet been able to give their “victim impact assessments” to the Lisbon court. There has been a “delay in the proceedings”.
Whatever happens today however will not lead to any instant verdict. The case, which was brought out against Amaral in 2009, will need “a few weeks” consideration before the judge contacts the legal teams on both sides with her final decision.
By NATASHA DONN news@algarveresident.com
Sorry, PF cross posted
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Thanks for the article Mercury. So seen close to the church beach location. Interesting just as I thought &%+((£
"The first story hinged on an account from farmer and former fisherman Cândido Furtado who lives a short walk from Luz church overlooking the beach."
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Gonçalo Amaral says that information provided by a woman who saw Maddie's father walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club holiday resort in Praia da Luz, Algarve, May 3, 2007 (seven years ago), a witness emerged: a British tourist who said she saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by the former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared.
"We tried to recover this testimony and the documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Still do not know who this person is and where it is," said Goncalo Amaral.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=2&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&tl=en&u=http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie&usg=ALkJrhht5SHzMzbyOQE2ZnKxk_ZTFcO6HQ
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie
Oh yeah ?
Bit vague, aint it?
Anyway, Gerry was out searching and could have been searching the beach. Which part of the beach and what time ?
All very vague.
?
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Oh yeah ?
Bit vague, aint it?
Anyway, Gerry was out searching and could have been searching the beach. Which part of the beach and what time ?
All very vague.
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David Payne mentioned a beach search in his interview so it had to go in the book years later and now on Kate's insistence she took charge. David forgot that important point 8)-)))
"On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting, desperate to find something; please God, to find Madeleine herself. It was only much later that Gerry told me he’d already started remembering cases of other missing children and acknowledging the horrific possibility that Madeleine might not be found. It was a possibility I could not have begun to contemplate."
Fascinating already thinking she wouldn't be found at a place where he was allegedly seen and where Smithman was heading.
Fast forward a few hours no further beach searches &%+((£
"Friday 4 May. Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine."
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David Payne mentioned a beach search in his interview so it had to go in the book years later and now on Kate's insistence she took charge. David forgot that important point 8)-)))
"On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting, desperate to find something; please God, to find Madeleine herself. It was only much later that Gerry told me he’d already started remembering cases of other missing children and acknowledging the horrific possibility that Madeleine might not be found. It was a possibility I could not have begun to contemplate."
Fascinating already thinking she wouldn't be found at a place where he was allegedly seen and where Smithman was heading.
Fast forward a few hours no further beach searches &%+((£
"Friday 4 May. Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine."
Pathfinder you amaze and exhaust me.
You also horrify me when you keep jumping to conclusions .... based on nothing.
Am off to bed now ...
Nigh Night, sleep well
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Night night you too.
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Gerry on the rocks say Amaral, who says he said that? Who saw him and at what time? Was he searching after the alarm ?
Gerry and another man, his B-in-L (IIRC) were certainly searching the rocks and beaches AFTER May 4th. There is photographic evidence of that.
So can we have proof that Gerry was on the beach and at what time, please.
(http://i.imgur.com/nWPix4V.jpg)
Gerald McCann looking around the beach and rocks on Praia da Luz beach morning after Maddie disappeared.
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David Payne mentioned a beach search in his interview so it had to go in the book years later and now on Kate's insistence she took charge. David forgot that important point 8)-)))
"On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting, desperate to find something; please God, to find Madeleine herself. It was only much later that Gerry told me he’d already started remembering cases of other missing children and acknowledging the horrific possibility that Madeleine might not be found. It was a possibility I could not have begun to contemplate."
Fascinating already thinking she wouldn't be found at a place where he was allegedly seen and where Smithman was heading.
Fast forward a few hours no further beach searches &%+((£
"Friday 4 May. Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine."
All very dramatic, but what did David say?
Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach ......he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning..............we must have, you know, err gone into bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
No running, no shouting mentioned.
Matthew got to bed a bit earlier;
we went to bed about sort of two, three, something like that'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Russell met an English woman when he was searching the beach with David and Matt;
she was an English woman in her, in her early or mid-twenties, fair or blonde’ish sort of hair, erm, I’d asked her if she’d seen, erm, you know, a little girl wandering around and, you know, I can’t remember what she said, but she was already aware that somebody was missing,...................
He seems to have gone to bed as the searches were winding down; 4 or 4.30 then?
MARK WARNER I think had largely decided as well that there was no obvious sign of her in the immediate vicinity and the fact that, you know, there was no-one outside at one point and when I went to bed everyone had gone, erm, clearly, well at least most of the GNR, I don’t know if there was anyone still there at all.............
Before that he was in 5H and Gerry was certainly there;
Erm, and, you know, Kate and Gerry were sort of sat on, they were sat on the sofas there or on the edge of the sofa, erm, absolutely broken, just, just, you know, hugging each other and or just sat there,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
It seems the only people who mentioned Gerry and David's search were David and Kate then.
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All very dramatic, but what did David say?
Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach ......he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning..............we must have, you know, err gone into bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
No running, no shouting mentioned.
Matthew got to bed a bit earlier;
we went to bed about sort of two, three, something like that'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Russell met an English woman when he was searching the beach with David and Matt;
she was an English woman in her, in her early or mid-twenties, fair or blonde’ish sort of hair, erm, I’d asked her if she’d seen, erm, you know, a little girl wandering around and, you know, I can’t remember what she said, but she was already aware that somebody was missing,...................
He seems to have gone to bed as the searches were winding down; 4 or 4.30 then?
MARK WARNER I think had largely decided as well that there was no obvious sign of her in the immediate vicinity and the fact that, you know, there was no-one outside at one point and when I went to bed everyone had gone, erm, clearly, well at least most of the GNR, I don’t know if there was anyone still there at all.............
Before that he was in 5H and Gerry was certainly there;
Erm, and, you know, Kate and Gerry were sort of sat on, they were sat on the sofas there or on the edge of the sofa, erm, absolutely broken, just, just, you know, hugging each other and or just sat there,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
It seems the only people who mentioned Gerry and David's search were David and Kate then.
All terribly suspicious isn't it....? &%+((£
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It is being so close to the church they got the keys for and where the prime suspect was heading when he passed the Smith family.
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All very dramatic, but what did David say?
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... We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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Can you remember seeing anything about who was looking after the twins during this early morning search? I'm not asking you to search the T9 statements when I'm too lazy to do it myself. Presumably it must have been Fiona Payne or Dianne Webster, and the above implies it was not Fiona, though David Payne's rog is a bit of a disaster zone. Just wondering if you had seen a mention of it anywhere.
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All terribly suspicious isn't it....? &%+((£
Absolutely! One wonders why they haven't been locked up and the key thrown far, far away.
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Can you remember seeing anything about who was looking after the twins during this early morning search? I'm not asking you to search the T9 statements when I'm too lazy to do it myself. Presumably it must have been Fiona Payne or Dianne Webster, and the above implies it was not Fiona, though David Payne's rog is a bit of a disaster zone. Just wondering if you had seen a mention of it anywhere.
Kate asked Fiona to do it; she went to their bedroom. [Fiona's rog].
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Kate asked Fiona to do it; she went to their bedroom. [Fiona's rog].
Many thanks.
You know, I went through my query twice over, which is my norm, to make sure I got it right. And I still didn't twig I was talking about Jane Tanner when I should have been talking about Fiona Payne. Silly me!
Thanks again.
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The one thing especially about this thread is that the people who a few threads back were insisting that neither Gerry nor Kate did any searching (What terrible people they were !!).... have suddenly decided that Gerry and Kate did search and a good deal of it .... and that Gerry was on the beach looking.
The double standards of some of you appalls me.
It was a long search period. Of course Gerry would search the beach ... and he would go to all the places where they had gone as a family. He would be thinking that it was possible that Madeleine had gone back there looking for them. In his desperation he would look everywhere.
PFinder, there is no proof whatsoever that Smithman, went east towards the church from Rua D'Escola. He could have gone south, down the steps towards the little rocky cove .... or he could have gone down the steps and then west. In fact at any point he could have vanished into a house or have been picked up by a car.
All this is if Smithman actually exists and some think he doesn't.
There are persuasive arguments by both Shining and Heri that Smithman would not have gone towards the church.
Shining pointed out that the route you suggest took him past the busy ATM machine and several restaurants. Not likely for one wanting to not be seen.
Heriberto used a more scientific approach using vector diagrams, which indicated that he was most likely to be heading south or west ... but definitely NOT east towards the Church
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Smithman would have been to that place before and he wasn't going nightswimming. He had been to the main beach and knew where the church was. Gerry asked for directions to the church that night suggesting that he didn't know where it was. How strange - I would think you couldn't miss it rising high above the promenade apartments if you had been to the beach 8(0(*
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Smithman would have been to that place before and he wasn't going nightswimming. He had been to the main beach and knew where the church was. Gerry asked for directions to the church that night suggesting that he didn't know where it was. How strange - I would think you couldn't miss it rising high above the promenade apartments if you had been to the beach 8(0(*
His route on the ice-cream trip to the beach did not take him near the church.
So it's over to you to come up with a plausible reason as to why Gerry might know where the church was.
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His route on the ice-cream trip to the beach did not take him near the church.
So it's over to you to come up with a plausible reason as to why Gerry might know where the church was.
SUN 29 APRIL 2007
"In the afternoon the children went back to their clubs and, after a leisurely hour by the pool with Fiona, David and Dianne, Gerry and I took a run along the beach. Being able to play tennis and run together for the first time in ages was a real treat." (Madeleine)
We don't know if they ran along the promenade to the rocks area but it's a good possibility. Most tourists have a look around the resort regardless of an ice cream trip. Running along the beach and not one noticed the church i.e. the tallest building along the beach front. Interesting.....
(http://yellowfishguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Luz-beach-019c.jpg)
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SUN 29 APRIL 2007
"In the afternoon the children went back to their clubs and, after a leisurely hour by the pool with Fiona, David and Dianne, Gerry and I took a run along the beach. Being able to play tennis and run together for the first time in ages was a real treat." (Madeleine)
We don't know if they ran along the promenade to the rocks area but it's a good possibility. Most tourists have a look around the resort regardless of an ice cream trip. Running along the beach and not one noticed the church i.e. the tallest building along the beach front. Interesting.....
(http://yellowfishguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Luz-beach-019c.jpg)
Thanks for this. I could not remember a single reference to Gerry jogging, which rather bothered me as the pair were interested and obviously had the opportunity.
The viewpoint you have posted is from the top of the cliffs near Boa Vista looking west. Is there anything to indicate that Kate and Gerry went up those cliffs prior to 3 May 07.
The view from the beach is on the Luz webcam site. And I would contend that picking out a church whilst jogging on the beach is a non-starter. So it still boils down to which route they took to get to the beach. If it was Avenida dos Pescadores or Rua do Poço, they would go close to the church. If not, they wouldn't know the church existed.
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Gerry's mate knew where the church was before they both went out later for another search.
"I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom." (David Payne Rog)
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Gerry's mate knew where the church was before they both went out later for another search.
"I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom." (David Payne Rog)
Your quote does not bear out your statement. Want to try again?
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Your quote does not bear out your statement. Want to try again?
Gerry was asking directions to the church after David Payne had passed it earlier in his first searches. He only had to ask his mate who was with him at around that time i.e. 4am. Gerry thinks he's the smartest but two can play the dumb game when it suits 8)--))
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva Occupation: GNR Officer
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Gerry was asking directions to the church after David Payne had passed it earlier in his first searches. He only had to ask his mate who was with him at the time i.e. 4am. Gerry thinks he's the smartest but two can play the dumb game when it suits 8)--))
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva Occupation: GNR Officer
Where is your cite for David Payne knowing where the church was before 4am?
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Where is your cite for David Payne knowing where the church was before 4am?
His interview about his first searches. Hours later he went out with Gerry on another search to the beach - see thread title. PDL is a small town - be hard to miss the church after nearly a week there.
"I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom." (David Payne Rog)
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Gerry was asking directions to the church after David Payne had passed it earlier in his first searches. He only had to ask his mate who was with him at around that time i.e. 4am. Gerry thinks he's the smartest but two can play the dumb game when it suits 8)--))
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva Occupation: GNR Officer
Would they have had a key to that church at that stage?
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No I don't think so.
"We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. We cherished these little oases of relative peace and solitude. One night early in the week – I think it was that Tuesday evening (8 May 2007 - PF)– while we were praying privately at Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gerry had an extraordinary spiritual experience. He suddenly became aware of a long tunnel with light at the far end of it. He felt himself enter the tunnel and, as he went deeper and deeper inside, it became wider and wider and brighter and brighter. He had never known anything like this before and he immediately interpreted it as a sign urging us to do absolutely everything within our power to find Madeleine ourselves. From that moment he was convinced that we did not have to sit back passively, issuing statements and waiting for others to bring her home. We needed to take the initiative. Straight away he shared this revelation with me and tried to explain what it meant to him. We had to start right now to mobilize all the resources available to us.
His ‘vision’ – I don’t know what else to call it – in that beautiful little church had a huge impact on Gerry. It was this experience that laid the foundations of our organized campaign to find our daughter.
From the minute he got up the next morning, Gerry was on a mission........." (Madeleine)
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His interview about his first searches. Hours later he went out with Gerry on another search to the beach - see thread title. PDL is a small town - be hard to miss the church after nearly a week there.
"I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom." (David Payne Rog)
I'm sorry but that quote simply won't do as it does not prove that David Payne knew where the church was on the night of the 3rd. He is talking months after the event, months in which he had had ample time to get the lay of the land.
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His interview about his first searches. Hours later he went out with Gerry on another search to the beach - see thread title. PDL is a small town - be hard to miss the church after nearly a week there.
"I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom." (David Payne Rog)
Hard to miss the church if you were on your own, without toddlers who often needed carrying, but easy to miss it if you had toddlers and only went to the beach by the shortest and safest route That route was via the alleyways away from traffic and went nowhere near the Church.
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No I don't think so.
"We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. We cherished these little oases of relative peace and solitude. One night early in the week – I think it was that Tuesday evening (8 May 2007 - PF)– while we were praying privately at Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gerry had an extraordinary spiritual experience. He suddenly became aware of a long tunnel with light at the far end of it. He felt himself enter the tunnel and, as he went deeper and deeper inside, it became wider and wider and brighter and brighter. He had never known anything like this before and he immediately interpreted it as a sign urging us to do absolutely everything within our power to find Madeleine ourselves. From that moment he was convinced that we did not have to sit back passively, issuing statements and waiting for others to bring her home. We needed to take the initiative. Straight away he shared this revelation with me and tried to explain what it meant to him. We had to start right now to mobilize all the resources available to us.
His ‘vision’ – I don’t know what else to call it – in that beautiful little church had a huge impact on Gerry. It was this experience that laid the foundations of our organized campaign to find our daughter.
From the minute he got up the next morning, Gerry was on a mission........." (Madeleine)
Very spiritual. I take that to mean Gerry is absolutely blameless.
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I'm sorry but that quote simply won't do as it does not prove that David Payne knew where the church was on the night of the 3rd. He is talking months after the event, months in which he had had ample time to get the lay of the land.
I'd say it is almost impossible to visit the Paraiso restaurant without catching sight of the church.
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I'd say it is almost impossible to visit the Paraiso restaurant without catching sight of the church.
Really? Catching sight of something and mentally logging and remembering where something is are two different things.
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I'd say it is almost impossible to visit the Paraiso restaurant without catching sight of the church.
I'll test this out when I get the time, but at the moment it is 30C in the shade, and I'm not going walkabout in that.
Without knowing the route taken for the Kate/Gerry jog or the one on 3 May 2007, it is somewhat speculative as to which route they took, and indeed, how much of Luz they covered.
The board on the seafront where water purity figures are posted makes the length of the beach as 300m. Normal walking rate of 4mph comes out at 100m/minute. If all they did was jog there, jog along the beach once, then jog back, it was scarcely worth the effort (despite the fact that the climb back from the beach to 5A is a bit of a challenge).
Does anyone have the Ocean Club map to hand? That might clarify a potential route.
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The McCanns can run for many miles nevermind a little hill up to 5A from the beach. They ran up a far steeper one to the monument. The church is only a 5 minute walk if that. Some people need to get real.
4078 'And do you remember what you did that day''
Reply 'Erm, I remember I went running with Kate at lunchtime, she's quite a good runner, and we went out on the road all the way up to the main junc, erm, the sort of main road where you access Praia da Luz from and then back'.
4078 'What sort of distance would that be''
Reply 'Erm, yeah, I think it'd be about three or four miles, maybe each way'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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The McCanns can run for many miles nevermind a little hill up to 5A from the beach. They ran up a far steeper one to the monument. The church is only a 5 minute walk if that. Some people need to get real.
4078 'And do you remember what you did that day''
Reply 'Erm, I remember I went running with Kate at lunchtime, she's quite a good runner, and we went out on the road all the way up to the main junc, erm, the sort of main road where you access Praia da Luz from and then back'.
4078 'What sort of distance would that be''
Reply 'Erm, yeah, I think it'd be about three or four miles, maybe each way'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Matthew's ability to estimate distance is dubious. The jog that tallies with this is from 5A going out of Luz on the M537 to the east towards Lagos to the junction with the N125. Google Earth makes it around 1.9 miles each way. This route is understandable as the McCanns/Paynes probably arrived in Luz using it, and basically it is a near flat run along the valley.
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As regards who saw GM at the beach on the night, unless you believe GA just makes things up and nothng else, then read here...
http://portugalresident.com/new-revelations-as-mccanns-go-all-out-for-€1-million-in-damages
As Gerry McCann was due to testify today (June 16) in the long-running civil action for defamation that he and wife Kate have taken out against former detective Gonçalo Amaral, damning new claims about his behaviour on the night three-year-old Madeleine disappeared have appeared in the Portuguese press.
On Sunday, the headline of a story carried by Correio da Manhã proclaimed “Gerry searched for Maddie drunk”, while in the evening the policeman whose inconvenient theory the couple is demanding over a million euros in damages for went on television to describe how a key witness had placed Gerry McCann on Luz beach on the night Madeleine went missing - but how that witness’ testimony has since been “wiped from police records”.
The first story hinged on an account from farmer and former fisherman Cândido Furtado who lives a short walk from Luz church overlooking the beach.
Furtado told journalists how he had seen Gerry McCann “totally drunk” calling Madeleine’s name in the street in the early hours of the morning after she reportedly vanished.
“The father was walking at 1am with a bottle of wine in his hand,” Furtado told CM.
“He was calling the child’s name outside my door, and I asked him ‘what kind of noise is this?’ He said: ‘Menina, menina, embora, embora’.”
Father and grandfather Furtado said he told Gerry McCann to call the police, and then went fishing.
But as CM adds, “he had no doubts that Gerry McCann was drunk”. “You could see it instantly, by the way he was walking,” he told the paper.
Intriguingly, hours later, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral went on air on CMTV to say Gerry McCann had also been seen on the beach on the night Madeleine went missing - but that the witness who placed him there (a British tourist) had her testimony wiped from police records.
“We have tried to recover the testimony and the documents that related to it. They simply disappeared. Still today we don’t know who this person is, or where she is,” he told the news channel.
Even more intriguing perhaps is a letter received in The Resident offices today claiming that Madeleine’s body is indeed buried in Praia da Luz, but not in any of the places searched so far.
Madeleine will be found under a nearby driveway to a private house, “very possibly inside a missing carry all tennis bag", wrote South African investigator Martin Van Wyk, who maintains the truth lies with the Tapas 13 - not the Tapas 7 “as everybody was made to believe”.
Adding that he knows his email, sent to a number of news sources and investigating police, “will be pushed to one side”, Wyk advises recipients “do not delete it, as you will later refer back to it and be calling me”.
As we wrote up these developments, Sky News reported that Gerry and Kate McCann had not yet been able to give their “victim impact assessments” to the Lisbon court. There has been a “delay in the proceedings”.
Whatever happens today however will not lead to any instant verdict. The case, which was brought out against Amaral in 2009, will need “a few weeks” consideration before the judge contacts the legal teams on both sides with her final decision.
By NATASHA DONN news@algarveresident.com
Sorry, PF cross posted
This witness appeared to be in little doubt that the man he spoke to was Gerry, that he was shouting out for Maddie, was carrying a bottle of wine and was drunk. Other than the wailing mullah episodes in main reception and at the apartment are there any references by the police or Amaral to GM being intoxicated?
Where did GM get a bottle of wine at 1am in the morning?
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This witness appeared to be in little doubt that the man he spoke to was Gerry, that he was shouting out for Maddie, was carrying a bottle of wine and was drunk. Other than the wailing mullah episodes in main reception and at the apartment are there any references by the police or Amaral to GM being intoxicated?
Where did GM get a bottle of wine at 1am in the morning?
I assume he may have had some in the apartment unless they drank a whole bottle of NZ before going out.
The GNR officers said their colleagues called the Policia Judiciaria - the Portuguese equivalent of our CID - because they felt "something wasn't right".
One said of the Tapas Nine: "They were upset, panicking, wide-eyed, the usual, but there was something else. They were scared - not the usual scared, they were jumpy, nervous. It wasn't normal. None of it was normal.
"They'd all been drinking. They weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568477/Portuguese-police-admit-Madeleine-circus.html
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** Snip
The inquiry's new head, Portugal's second most senior policeman Paulo Rebelo, was reported this week to have reinterrogated staff serving the group about whether they were drunk the night Madeleine vanished.
But waiters who served the Tapas Nine insisted that they had drunk only moderate amounts.
The GNR officers said their colleagues called the Policia Judiciaria ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568477/Portuguese-police-admit-Madeleine-circus.html
In my opinion the GNR officers called the PJ because their search for Madeleine had made it plain they were dealing with the serious case of a missing child.
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This witness appeared to be in little doubt that the man he spoke to was Gerry, that he was shouting out for Maddie, was carrying a bottle of wine and was drunk. Other than the wailing mullah episodes in main reception and at the apartment are there any references by the police or Amaral to GM being intoxicated?
Where did GM get a bottle of wine at 1am in the morning?
If it was Gerry, he saw him not far from the church, hours before he was asking for directions to it. Oh dear but it's obvious why he asked for directions to it if he actually knew where it was.
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The one thing especially about this thread is that the people who a few threads back were insisting that neither Gerry nor Kate did any searching (What terrible people they were !!).... have suddenly decided that Gerry and Kate did search and a good deal of it .... and that Gerry was on the beach looking.
The double standards of some of you appalls me.
It was a long search period. Of course Gerry would search the beach ... and he would go to all the places where they had gone as a family. He would be thinking that it was possible that Madeleine had gone back there looking for them. In his desperation he would look everywhere.
PFinder, there is no proof whatsoever that Smithman, went east towards the church from Rua D'Escola. He could have gone south, down the steps towards the little rocky cove .... or he could have gone down the steps and then west. In fact at any point he could have vanished into a house or have been picked up by a car.
All this is if Smithman actually exists and some think he doesn't.
There are persuasive arguments by both Shining and Heri that Smithman would not have gone towards the church.
Shining pointed out that the route you suggest took him past the busy ATM machine and several restaurants. Not likely for one wanting to not be seen.
Heriberto used a more scientific approach using vector diagrams, which indicated that he was most likely to be heading south or west ... but definitely NOT east towards the Church
Smithman went down the steps (south) that the Smith family came up. Had he been heading east towards the church he would have taken the shortest route around the corner. Had he been going west he would not have approached Aoife as she emerged from the top of the steps and then passed her. Amaral worked this out early on and that is why derelict properties and gardens bordering the steps and the adjacent street were searched.
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I'll test this out when I get the time, but at the moment it is 30C in the shade, and I'm not going walkabout in that.
Without knowing the route taken for the Kate/Gerry jog or the one on 3 May 2007, it is somewhat speculative as to which route they took, and indeed, how much of Luz they covered.
The board on the seafront where water purity figures are posted makes the length of the beach as 300m. Normal walking rate of 4mph comes out at 100m/minute. If all they did was jog there, jog along the beach once, then jog back, it was scarcely worth the effort (despite the fact that the climb back from the beach to 5A is a bit of a challenge).
Does anyone have the Ocean Club map to hand? That might clarify a potential route.
The safest and shortest, so best route, to the beach area near the Paraiso, with young children was via the alleyways coming out by "The Plough and .......", or by OC main reception. Then across the main Rua Direita and down one of the little roads leading to the beach.
I didn't especially look for the church when I did it, but the route was never near the church. After the first part, the church was always at right angles to the way I was walking. So beyond my periferal vision had it been on view. At all times there were villas and apartments between me and the church. Once at the Paraiso restaurant beach area, the top part of it would have probably have been in view over villa and apartment rooves, but I never noticed it. I never noticed it all the way down and up again
Looking at the sea and people watching was far more interesting.
Maybe Shining will prove me wrong. We shall see.
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Why was GM looking for a church at 4am in the morning anyway? Should he not have been looking for the Chief of Police??
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Why was GM looking for a church at 4am in the morning anyway? Should he not have been looking for the Chief of Police??
Seemingly the McCanns never met the chief detective until years later when they sat in the same courtroom.
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Why was GM looking for a church at 4am in the morning anyway? Should he not have been looking for the Chief of Police??
"A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
Is this the witness Amaral claimed disappeared from the files? White trousers and a dark jacket matched with the Smiths statements. Be interesting to know the source of the man passing the church information.
SY had Smithman heading towards the church in the Crimewatch special. I agree but the steps is a possibility.
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Why was GM looking for a church at 4am in the morning anyway? Should he not have been looking for the Chief of Police??
News to me. Where did you get that Gerry was looking for a church at 4am from?
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Seemingly the McCanns never met the chief detective until years later when they sat in the same courtroom.
That's true I understand
Amaral never bothered to even speak to them before he made them arquidos.
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This witness appeared to be in little doubt that the man he spoke to was Gerry, that he was shouting out for Maddie, was carrying a bottle of wine and was drunk. Other than the wailing mullah episodes in main reception and at the apartment are there any references by the police or Amaral to GM being intoxicated?
Where did GM get a bottle of wine at 1am in the morning?
So that is the new myth is it? To put the boot into Gerry no doubt.
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Smithman went down the steps (south) that the Smith family came up. Had he been heading east towards the church he would have taken the shortest route around the corner. Had he been going west he would not have approached Aoife as she emerged from the top of the steps and then passed her. Amaral worked this out early on and that is why derelict properties and gardens bordering the steps and the adjacent street were searched.
We dont KNOW that John. I don't intend going thru all the statements but I well remember that the words in one of the Smith (Aoifes?) statements were not totally clear and could have meant that Smitghman went down the steps behind Aoife ... or could have meant that Smithman went east towards the Church. I tend to agree with you that the likely direction was down the steps, BUT we dont know for sure.
The only thing that we are certain of, is that he didn't go west up Rua 25 Abril.
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So that is the new myth is it? To put the boot into Gerry no doubt.
It's slightly more than a myth - it's a CdM newspaper report. They print direct quotes from a named witness who definitely exists. A possible solution is that the witness did see a drunk searcher, but completely mistook his identity.
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Yes, the constant crow of myth myth does get a bit much sometimes , especially when the blasters are wrong,sigh
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It's slightly more than a myth - it's a CdM newspaper report. They print direct quotes from a named witness who definitely exists. A possible solution is that the witness did see a drunk searcher, but completely mistook his identity.
And yet how often do we hear accusations that the McCanns are manipulating the media any time anything vaguely supportive of the abduction theory is published? Perhaps there are (were) malevolent forces afoot in Portugal wishing to destroy the McCanns?
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News to me. Where did you get that Gerry was looking for a church at 4am from?
It's in the files.
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva - GNR Officer
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUI-SILVA.htm
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It's in the files.
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva - GNR Officer
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUI-SILVA.htm
Dianne Webster doesn't remember a trip out by Gerry and David;
”Once they arrived at your apartment did they stay there a while or do you remember them leaving?”
”Err I think, I think, I think they stayed there because it was very late or you know early, early morning and Kate wanted a priest, they couldn’t find a priest which, well I won’t, I won’t say what her language was but I’m, you know, Portugal’s a Catholic country and err no priest.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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It's in the files.
"He only had direct contact with the couple and their friends at about 04.00 when Gerry McCann approached the GNR group of which he was a member to ask whether there was a church close by. He replied to him in English, giving the directions to a nearby church." Rui Sergio Lópes Silva - GNR Officer
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUI-SILVA.htm
After the event, they were asking directions to a nearby church.
So there you have your answer to whether Gerry and Kate had seen the church before. You have proved that they hadn't yourself.. Well done!
The only church shown on G.E. is the church that you keep going on about, the one that you postulate that Smithman walked past
... and that measures 0.27 miles, walking distance, on GE from 5A. A quarter of a mile, close, but hidden from view by villas and buildings.
So If you are correct about Smithman passing the church, then you have also proved that Gerry is NOT Smithman,
Very well done Pathfinder 8@??)(
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You missed the point but never mind. Of course asking that question to an officer could also be getting an alibi. This reinforces my theory that Smithman passed the church 8(0(*
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You missed the point but never mind. Of course asking that question to an officer could also be getting an alibi. This reinforces my theory that Smithman passed the church 8(0(*
Oh, Pfinder, you are so funny. As * IF * you are right %&5%£.
Makes sense that he would draw attention to himself and the church, especially with the police, doesn't it?
Soooo funny! if only you could stand back and see yourself.
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Oh, Pfinder, you are so funny. As * IF * you are right %&5%£.
Makes sense that he would draw attention to himself and the church, especially with the police, doesn't it?
Soooo funny! if only you could stand back and see yourself.
*&*%£
Please let us not mock Pathfinder. I might get cross about that.
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Oh, Pfinder, you are so funny. As * IF * you are right %&5%£.
Makes sense that he would draw attention to himself and the church, especially with the police, doesn't it?
Soooo funny! if only you could stand back and see yourself.
Just as stupid as drawing attention to Madeleine's short sleeves was she was seen in long sleeves.
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Just as stupid as drawing attention to Madeleine's short sleeves was she was in long sleeves.
You saty.
I say that either Smithman did not exist, but I think he did.
or, the little girl being carried was not Madeleine
or, most likely
Smithman stopped off somewhere and borrowed a cardi or extra top with long sleeves
I have long thought that his accomplis was living in the staff quarters just about 50 metres up the road from the first sighting by the Smiths.
I think he called in there.
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No abductor would stop anywhere close to borrow a cardi. They would get the hell out of there. What about the police? Don't worry they haven't been called and won't be here for another hour. We will use a clone to carry her then @)(++(*
"At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30." PF
Who told Gerry that? The police were called at 22:41.
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No abductor would stop anywhere close to borrow a cardi. They would get the hell out of there. What about the police? Don't worry they haven't been called and won't be here for another hour. We will use a clone to carry her then @)(++(*
"At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30." PF
Who told Gerry that? The police were called at 22:41.
If it was a planned abduction with an accomplice (or two) then there is no reason why he would not have stopped off somewhere.
I have long thought that the abductor had an accomplice and I have thought that someone who Madeleine knew was used. If Madeleine awakened then she wouldn't have screamed at someone, probably a woman, who she knew. The accomplice quite probably lived in the Staff quarters.
Also with that being a high building, from the roof it probably had views over the rooves, of the ocean near the horizon. I think Madeleine was most likely taken away by boat .... and it would be a simple matter to signal to and fro from a place that had views such as I think the staff quarters might have had. If the boat was well out to seaand the lamp tilted up a fraction,, it is unlikely anyone else could see the signals imo. If the beams went above the front line houses, then there was such a mass of houses and rooves that only someone really high would be able to see such a lamp, I think.
Anyway, pick me apart if you wish. It is just a suggestion ... and could well be right.
Any chance you can get up onto the roof Shining... and look-see?
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No abductor would stop anywhere close to borrow a cardi. They would get the hell out of there. What about the police? Don't worry they haven't been called and won't be here for another hour. We will use a clone to carry her then @)(++(*
"At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30." PF
Who told Gerry that? The police were called at 22:41.
Yep, that is the time that the police were called from OC.
But Gerry would know that Matt had gone personally to OC main reception and had asked Reception to call the police at about 10.10pm. As anyone would, he would have expected and believed reception to have done just that. But they didn't for half an hour ... Jeez !
I seem to remember that one of the OC staff (waiter?) also called the police very early on.
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You saty.
I say that either Smithman did not exist, but I think he did.
or, the little girl being carried was not Madeleine
or, most likely
Smithman stopped off somewhere and borrowed a cardi or extra top with long sleeves
I have long thought that his accomplis was living in the staff quarters just about 50 metres up the road from the first sighting by the Smiths.
I think he called in there.
The private detectives of Operation Omega (paid for by MFLNSU) had a camera pointed at that building at 09m21 in http://youtu.be/vphKz-Xjbn0 Sadie
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No abductor would stop anywhere close to borrow a cardi.
@)(++(*
Must agree
If the abductor was soooo concerned about their victimgetting cold would have taken her blanket or bedclothes not stop off en route knock on other strangers doors and ask can i borrow a cardi please???wtf
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@)(++(*
Must agree
If the abductor was soooo concerned about their victimgetting cold would have taken her blanket or bedclothes not stop off en route knock on other strangers doors and ask can i borrow a cardi please???wtf
It's nonsense like that that causes many to ridicule this forum.
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It's nonsense like that that causes many to ridicule this forum.
But an accomplice was living in the staff quarters and was waiting with an available cardi ffs
Agree utter hogwash and wishful thnking
Children dont get abducted by strangers to be kept warm safe and happy, what planet are these aplogists living on??
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It's slightly more than a myth - it's a CdM newspaper report. They print direct quotes from a named witness who definitely exists. A possible solution is that the witness did see a drunk searcher, but completely mistook his identity.
Aaaah ... so if it is a Correio da M newspaper report it must be correct???
To reprise the OP ...
Polícia inglesa esconde provas no caso Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral diz que informações fornecidas por uma mulher que viu pai de Maddie a caminhar em direção à praia desapareceram dos ficheiros.
British police hide evidence in the case Maddie
Gonçalo Amaral says information provided by a woman who saw the father of Maddie walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
Which concludes as follows
Gonçalo Amaral não tem dúvidas de que a Maddie está morta. "Os pais da menina tinham a chave da igreja e nessa mesma igreja foi realizado um velório um mês depois do desaparecimento. Segundo algumas informações, a criança bem podia ir nos pés dessa mulher que ia ser cremada", explicou ainda Gonçalo Amaral.
Gonçalo Amaral has no doubt that Maddie is dead. "The girl's parents had the key to the church and that same church was held a funeral a month after the disappearance. According to some information, the child could well go the feet of this woman who was to be cremated," further explained Goncalo Amaral.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/policia-inglesa-esconde-provas-no-caso-maddie.html
The allegation made by Mr Amaral that Madeleine could well have been put into a coffin for cremation didn't seem to 'take off' with the resonance all the other myths did.
Perhaps people are becoming more discerning and now have a greater expectation that their myths have some grounding in reality.
There have been a few anonymous commentators quoted by CdM amongst others ... from hairdressers ~ waiters ~ passing lawyers et al ... all of whose newspaper and televised quotations in my opinion have much the same qualities as a SUN exclusive, and should be treated as such.
What I find truly remarkable is the ease with which the British police appear to have been able to access the Portuguese police files to remove whatever they wanted to ... wonder if Mr Amaral knows how they achieved that?
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The private detectives of Operation Omega (paid for by MFLNSU) had a camera pointed at that building at 09m21 in http://youtu.be/vphKz-Xjbn0 Sadie
Yep, thanks Peg, the blue and white building. Several stories high, with no tall buildings between it and the ocean.
Doesn't it ever look shabby on that clip.
It looked run down, but I don't remember it being so shabby with paint peeling off when I was there in 2010. But it must have been quite Ok for younger staff with the tennis court and multiple sports 'court' adjoining.
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But an accomplice was living in the staff quarters and was waiting with an available cardi ffs
Agree utter hogwash and wishful thnking
Children dont get abducted by strangers to be kept warm safe and happy, what planet are these aplogists living on??
Well this "apologist" as you so absurdly like to call me, happens to believe that Madeleine was abducted to order.
It was a thoroughly planned abduction imo
Watchers before hand and carefully timed abduction to avoid various parents trips to and fro from the Tapas restaurant to their respective apartments. I think the abduction was timed to happen immediately after Gerry left 5A ... and that is why Jane saw the abductor as Gerry and Jez were talking. Immediately after Gerry left.
Also a thoroughly planned get away which was nearly completely foiled by Gerry and Jez and Jane unexpectedly being on the scene
Yes, I think that apart from Tannerman, there was at least another accomplice and probably two
I think the "lifter" of Madeleine was most probably a female member of staff who Madeleine knew and trusted. And I think it likely that she lived in the staff quarters.
Obviously I cant know absolutely, but the pointers are there
Scoff all you like mercury, you are good at that.
You are not unintelligent, why don't you try and work things out instead of always knocking (me especially)
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Yep, that is the time that the police were called from OC.
But Gerry would know that Matt had gone personally to OC main reception and had asked Reception to call the police at about 10.10pm. As anyone would, he would have expected and believed reception to have done just that. But they didn't for half an hour ... Jeez !
I seem to remember that one of the OC staff (waiter?) also called the police very early on.
That's another contradiction in their book. Kate said Gerry asked Matt to go and call the police. Fiona told Matt to go. Gerry seemed to be everywhere but not so in his statement.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
What time did he check at main reception? The police weren't called until 10:41. Mrs Fenn offered her phone at around 10:30. That is at least 30 minutes after the alarm so what was he doing? When DW went to the apartment Kate was alone. So Gerry was at main reception checking they had called the police. Not so because Matt didn't see him at main reception until around 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 but not Gerry.
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That's another contradiction in their book. Kate said Gerry asked Matt to go and call the police. Fiona told Matt to go. Gerry seemed to be everywhere but not so in his statement.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
What time did he check at main reception? The police weren't called until 10:41. Mrs Fenn offered her phone at around 10:30. That is at least 30 minutes after the alarm so what was he doing? When DW went to the apartment Kate was alone. So Gerry was at main reception checking they had called the police. Not so because Matt didn't see him at main reception until around 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 but not Gerry.
You are making something of nothing PFinder
Have you never thought that it was very possible that both Gerry and Fiona asked Matt to go to reception?
After an initial search, Gerry would want to be available to meet the police and I would have thought would have stayed near 5A at that time. Poor guy must have been torn between searching far and wide and being with Kate, comforting her and waiting for the police. He would have expected them any time soon after Matt reported to OC main reception and asked them to report to the police.
As the minutes ticked on to getting on for an hour everyone must have been perplexed and distraught. what a dreadful delay. They must have been frantic when the police didn't arrive. I shudder to think what the long long wait must have been like.
As for Mrs Fenn offering her phone, Gerry thought that the police were already on their way, so no need for it.
Can anyone remember an OC staff member (waiter?) ringing the police really early on? I feel sure that is mentioned somewhere.
IIRC, OC main reception didn't call the police until John Hill arrived. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.
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That's another contradiction in their book. Kate said Gerry asked Matt to go and call the police. Fiona told Matt to go. Gerry seemed to be everywhere but not so in his statement.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
.....
Good one. That is the bit I'd make a point of noting.
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You are making something of nothing PFinder
Have you never thought that it was very possible that both Gerry and Fiona asked Matt to go to reception?
After an initial search, Gerry would want to be available to meet the police and I would have thought would have stayed near 5A at that time. Poor guy must have been torn between searching far and wide and being with Kate, comforting her and waiting for the police. He would have expected them any time soon after Matt reported to OC main reception and asked them to report to the police.
As the minutes ticked on to getting on for an hour everyone must have been perplexed and distraught. what a dreadful delay. They must have been frantic when the police didn't arrive. I shudder to think what the long long wait must have been like.
As for Mrs Fenn offering her phone, Gerry thought that the police were already on their way, so no need for it.
Can anyone remember an OC staff member (waiter?) ringing the police really early on? I feel sure that is mentioned somewhere.
IIRC, OC main reception didn't call the police until John Hill arrived. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.
Don't make excuses he said he went to main reception to check the police had been called. The police weren't called until 10:41. Wasn't an urgent check was it?
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Don't make excuses he said he went to main reception to check the police had been called. The police weren't called until 10:41. Wasn't an urgent check was it?
You could take that two ways. ".....he went to main reception to check the police had been called ....". Why did he do that? In fact it doesn't matter who you are concerned about, just the fact that someone "went to main reception to check the police had been called" This could have been done for more than one reason.
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Don't make excuses he said he went to main reception to check the police had been called. The police weren't called until 10:41. Wasn't an urgent check was it?
The receptionist mentioned nether of them. Gerry said on 10th May that Matt went to the secondary [Tapas] reception, which he describes in his statement;
the deponent having asked MATHEW who went to the secondary reception [where] the event was communicated to the local police,
After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Was that when a staff member rang reception?
he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
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Good one. That is the bit I'd make a point of noting.
Good one? What do you mean - good one?
Seems to me that you have been planted here to find anything you (think) you can against the Mccanns.
How silly that statement is, Gerry knew the police had been called. The place for him to wait was at the apartment ... or very close by. He had already searched close by. People were calling in. Kate was in no fit condition to take care of them and neither it seems was Gerry ... but despite that, they had to do their best with helping the police.
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Good one? What do you mean - good one?
Seems to me that you have been planted here to find anything you (think) you can against the Mccanns.
How silly that statement is, Gerry knew the police had been called. The place for him to wait was at the apartment ... or very close by. He had already searched close by. People were calling in. Kate was in no fit condition to take care of them and neither it seems was Gerry ... but despite that, they had to do their best with helping the police.
Take this Thread for what it's worth, Sadie. It's a joke, in the absence of anything else at the moment.
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The only joke is that Gerry claims he went to main reception to check that the police were called. Mrs Fenn offered her phone at 10:30 but Gerry said the police had been notified. Well that's not true. The police were first called later at 10:41. A total contradiction.
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The only joke is that Gerry claims he went to main reception to check that the police were called. Mrs Fenn offered her phone at 10:30 but Gerry said the police had been notified. Well that's not true. The police were first called later at 10:41. A total contradiction.
Gerry thought that The Police had been called. Unless of course, you can prove that Gerry knew that The Police hadn't been called.
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Gerry thought that The Police had been called. Unless of course, you can prove that Gerry knew that The Police hadn't been called.
His arguido interview answer is clear.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
Gerry is outdoors searching not at main reception as his interview answer suggests. He didn't get to main reception until 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 onwards.
"I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well." (MO)
30 minutes is a long time to be running through back streets where Smithman was seen and is still unidentified.
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His arguido interview answer is clear.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
Gerry is outdoors searching not at main reception as his interview answer suggests. He didn't get to main reception until 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 onwards.
"I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well." (MO)
30 minutes is a long time to be running through back streets where Smithman was seen and is still unidentified.
This is not a logical reply to my post. Just prove that Gerry knew that The Police hadn't been called. Thank you in advance.
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Distraught loved-ones of a missing person (especially child) should never be required to look for the missing loved-one.
Certainly in England, they are actively discouraged from doing so.
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Distraught loved-ones of a missing person (especially child) should never be required to look for the missing loved-one.
Certainly in England, they are actively discouraged from doing so.
The open window had convinced them that Madeleine had been abducted. They knew the surrounding area where she might have been discarded had been and was still in the process of being checked by staff and volunteer searchers. They were aware of the necessity for police intervention and protocols at that stage.
I cannot imagine what horrors might have been going through their minds at that moment in time ... nor would I be prepared to criticise any action they may have taken or not taken ... particularly as Madeleine continues to be missing years down the line.
Proving that whatever they had done in the immediate aftermath of her disappearance would have been futile in terms of her recovery. She was gone and in my opinion could very well have been in a vehicle heading out of Luz as the police were heading in.
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His arguido interview answer is clear.
"When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom."
Gerry is outdoors searching not at main reception as his interview answer suggests. He didn't get to main reception until 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 onwards.
"I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well." (MO)
30 minutes is a long time to be running through back streets where Smithman was seen and is still unidentified.
Stop making things up Pfinder
" He [Gerry] didn't get to main reception until 10:40. Matt was there at 10:10 onwards".
and then in the next paragraph from Matts statement, you record he says:
" Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm"
You are contradicting yourself Pfinder, but at the same time trying to make something bad out of it for Gerry. What nonsense.
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"Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'" Matt Oldfield
"I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne
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"Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'" Matt Oldfield
"I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne
Yep, that is quite correct
BUT it doesn't exclude the fact that Gerry might have asked Matt to go as well.
Why do you always disbelieve Gerry for no reason ?
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Good one? What do you mean - good one?
Seems to me that you have been planted here to find anything you (think) you can against the Mccanns.
How silly that statement is, Gerry knew the police had been called. The place for him to wait was at the apartment ... or very close by. He had already searched close by. People were calling in. Kate was in no fit condition to take care of them and neither it seems was Gerry ... but despite that, they had to do their best with helping the police.
The way I understood it was that someone asked the Mark Warner staff to call the police, but it is their company policy not to call the police in a missing child case but to do a search first then call the police. So it was a good thing to check that the police had been rung. But on the other hand any perpetrator would also like to know if the police are coming and when so they/he can cover their trails as much as possible.
I had lost concentration in the posts of who exactly "went back to check the police had been called". I could imagine many asked the same question to the staff and to each other.
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Yep, that is quite correct
BUT it doesn't exclude the fact that Gerry might have asked Matt to go as well.
Why do you always disbelieve Gerry for no reason ?
But if any of them was guilty of any part of anything they would be the least likely to abide by a request to "call the police", or even they may just pretend to call the police but don't actually do it.
Would a perpetrator ever call the police?
""I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne" If that is true then I'd say Fiona is OK.
But did Matt obey Fiona?
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But if any of them was guilty of any part of anything they would be the least likely to abide by a request to "call the police", or even they may just pretend to call the police but don't actually do it.
Would a perpetrator ever call the police?
""I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne" If that is true then I'd say Fiona is OK.
But did Matt obey Fiona?
Are you accusing Matt of something dreadful ?
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Are you accusing Matt of something dreadful ?
No.
I was simply suggesting to you guys to look in the files to see if Matt responded to Fiona's clear instruction. I haven't checked that out myself. Did he even pass that instruction on to someone else?
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But if any of them was guilty of any part of anything they would be the least likely to abide by a request to "call the police", or even they may just pretend to call the police but don't actually do it.
Would a perpetrator ever call the police?
""I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne" If that is true then I'd say Fiona is OK.
But did Matt obey Fiona?
Has anyone tried to answer this question as yet.
It seems PF has covered it in part http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7407.msg346013#msg346013 where Matt says he asked the staff to call the police at around 10 past 10. Is this where the site manager comes in?
""Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'" Matt Oldfield
"I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'." Fiona Payne" So that is obviously the first request to phone the police which is different to the quote I first noted "I had lost concentration in the posts of who exactly "went back to check the police had been called". I could imagine many asked the same question to the staff and to each other."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7407.msg346021#msg346021
"Going back to check the police had been called" is a different event than the one Matt is talking about. At 10 past 10 this would have been the initial request of the staff to call the police not the "going back to check the police had been called" event.
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The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
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The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
That's silly really for would anyone be able to remember, and wouldn't anyone involved with anything still lie.
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The longer the police are called the better for the perp(s) to cover their tracks. If they were all running up and down back lanes/streets then who saw who, where and time to account for their whereabouts. The timeline is crucial to put witnesses in the correct place and to see if anybody went missing from the group. That's why a reconstruction would clear all of this up but they didn't want to do it.
Didn't you know?
In the early days after the abduction, Kate and Gerry pressed for wanted a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be. ETA. This has been challenged and i cannot find a cite for this assertion. However I am certain that it was discussed and so leave it standing. ETA 2. I understand what you are saying mercury and if I cannot find a cite then I must alter it, so altered from 'pressed for' to 'wanted'
mercury, why don't you chase the many inaccuracies and dreadful myths deliberately propagated by your side at very frequent intervals ?
But seems that the ones from your side and very deliberate ones, are OK by you ?
Amaral gave some lame excuse about crowds. If the PJ and GNR were incapable of controlling crowds then what were they useful for?
IMO, Amaral had already made up his mind that he was going to go after Kate and Gerry and he didn't want any evidence to come forth which made his views a nonsense.
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Didn't you know?
In the early days after the abduction, Kate and Gerry pressed for a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be.
A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance
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A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance
I have no idea where I would find it, but there definitely was mention that Kate and Gerry asked for a reconstruction at the time .... and the excuse given by Amaral was that the crowds would disrupt it / make it impossible to do.
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Who "went back to check the police had been called"?
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"and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning" (Source: Cartas Rogatorias)
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"and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning" (Source: Cartas Rogatorias)
That was on the way back, were they together on the way out as well?
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That was on the way back, were they together on the way out as well?
Yes see title of thread.
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A cite would be helpful for that assertion, I dont believe Ive seen the request, thanks in advance
44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Quote taken from Mr Amaral's book ...
Em meados de Maio já se tinha procedido a uma segunda leva de inquirições deste grupo de nove turistas que passava férias na Vila da Luz. As contradições entre os diversos depoimentos aumentaram.
Apesar de ser importante uma segunda inquirição de Kate Healy, decidiu-se esperar mais algum tempo porque a mãe de Maddie estaria demasiado abalada.
É nesta altura que se coloca a necessidade de se proceder a uma reconstituição dos factos daquela noite numa tentativa de os esclarecer. Esta constitui um acto processual e investigatório muito comum, sobretudo quando se avolumam os pormenores e contradições de um determinado caso.
Progride-se consideravel- mente quando uma reconstituição se concretiza. Estaríamos na presença de dezenas de intervenientes – o grupo de turistas, os empregados do restaurante, as educadoras e as demais teste- munhas. Percebe assim o leitor o incomensurável valor que a reconstituição daquela noite teria.
A sua realização pode funcio- nar como catalisador no esclarecimento da sequência de factos e sobre a sua simultaneidade. Se houver contradições durante a reconstituição, instantaneamente estas são explicadas pelos seus protagonistas
Mas a reconstituição não se realizou. Porquê? Atendendo ao número de turistas que estava no aldeamento, o qual teria de ser fechado durante algumas horas, afectando as suas férias, pela necessidade de fechar o espaço aéreo, pelo elevado número de jor- nalistas num espaço que se tornara exíguo e ainda porque se temia que se achasse que os pais de Maddie e os seus amigos estariam a ser considerados suspeitos e, naturalmente, não queríamos um julgamento na praça pública.
Foi discutida esta possibilidade no seio da equipa de investigação, mas a decisão acabou por ser a sua não realização, apesar de algumas vozes discordantes.
Ainda assim, a reconstituição daquela noite poderia ter sido feita de uma forma mais discreta, apenas com os pais da criança desaparecida. No essencial, obter-se-ia o mesmo efeito esclare- cedor sobre o que então ocorreu. Pela responsabilidade directa (pais-filhos) e pelo teor e valor dos seus depoimentos, os pais são o fio condutor daquela noite. Isto sem que, antes pelo contrário, se faça qualquer juízo a priori. Apenas decorre do dever de coo- peração, normalíssimo nestas situações.
É meu entendimento que esta reconstituição, seja com todos os intervenientes ou apenas com os pais, ainda é extremamente útil. A «encenação» da noite, no sentido técnico e investigatório do termo, acto de reconstituição a partir do rol de elementos que constam do processo permite, em articulação com estes manter ainda hoje a memória viva da noite de 3 de Maio de 2007. Não se percebe, assim, porque não se realiza.
By the middle of May we had already proceeded with a second series of questioning of the nine tourists who spent their holidays in Vila da Luz. There was an increase in the number of contradictions between the various statements.
Despite the importance of a second questioning of Kate Healy it was decided to wait a little longer because the mother of Maddie would be too upset/shaken.
This is when the need arises to proceed with a reconstruction of the events of that night in an attempt to make things clearer. This is a very common investigative procedure especially when details and contradictions are piling up in a given case.
Considrable progress is made when a reconstruction is done. We would be in the presence of many of those involved – the group of tourists, the restaurant workers, the nursery teachers, and other witnesses. So the reader can see how very important a reconstruction of that night would have been.
The reconstruction can work as a catalyst for clarifying the sequence of events and their respective timings. If there are contradictions during the reconstruction they are immediately explained by those involved.
The reconstruction never happened. Why? Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.
The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices..
Even so, the reconstruction of that evening could have been done in a more discreet way with only the parents of the child who had disappeared. Essentially it would have the same effect of clearing up what happened at the time. Due to their direct responsibility (Parent-child) and the meaning and value of their statements the parents are the driving force of that night. No a priori judgement is intended, quite the contrary. It simply follows from the duty of cooperation, normal in such situations.
It is my opinion that this reconstruction, whether with all those involved or only with the parents, remains extremely useful. The “staging” of the night in the technical and investigative sense of the term, the act of reconstruction starting from the list of elements contained in the process allows, in conjunction with these the night of 3 May 2007 to be kept alive as a living memory today. It isn’t clear, therefore, why it is not happening.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-purpose-of-a-reconstruction/
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Who "went back to check the police had been called"?
Gerry said he checked but he went to the reception with manager John Hill much later at around 10:40. Matt was also present but said nothing about Gerry being there before that time. Fiona sent Matt to go to main reception at around 10:10. Kate claims in Madeleine that it was in fact Gerry who told Matt to go.
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44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Quote taken from Mr Amaral's book ...
Em meados de Maio já se tinha procedido a uma segunda leva de inquirições deste grupo de nove turistas que passava férias na Vila da Luz. As contradições entre os diversos depoimentos aumentaram.
Apesar de ser importante uma segunda inquirição de Kate Healy, decidiu-se esperar mais algum tempo porque a mãe de Maddie estaria demasiado abalada.
É nesta altura que se coloca a necessidade de se proceder a uma reconstituição dos factos daquela noite numa tentativa de os esclarecer. Esta constitui um acto processual e investigatório muito comum, sobretudo quando se avolumam os pormenores e contradições de um determinado caso.
Progride-se consideravel- mente quando uma reconstituição se concretiza. Estaríamos na presença de dezenas de intervenientes – o grupo de turistas, os empregados do restaurante, as educadoras e as demais teste- munhas. Percebe assim o leitor o incomensurável valor que a reconstituição daquela noite teria.
A sua realização pode funcio- nar como catalisador no esclarecimento da sequência de factos e sobre a sua simultaneidade. Se houver contradições durante a reconstituição, instantaneamente estas são explicadas pelos seus protagonistas
Mas a reconstituição não se realizou. Porquê? Atendendo ao número de turistas que estava no aldeamento, o qual teria de ser fechado durante algumas horas, afectando as suas férias, pela necessidade de fechar o espaço aéreo, pelo elevado número de jor- nalistas num espaço que se tornara exíguo e ainda porque se temia que se achasse que os pais de Maddie e os seus amigos estariam a ser considerados suspeitos e, naturalmente, não queríamos um julgamento na praça pública.
Foi discutida esta possibilidade no seio da equipa de investigação, mas a decisão acabou por ser a sua não realização, apesar de algumas vozes discordantes.
Ainda assim, a reconstituição daquela noite poderia ter sido feita de uma forma mais discreta, apenas com os pais da criança desaparecida. No essencial, obter-se-ia o mesmo efeito esclare- cedor sobre o que então ocorreu. Pela responsabilidade directa (pais-filhos) e pelo teor e valor dos seus depoimentos, os pais são o fio condutor daquela noite. Isto sem que, antes pelo contrário, se faça qualquer juízo a priori. Apenas decorre do dever de coo- peração, normalíssimo nestas situações.
É meu entendimento que esta reconstituição, seja com todos os intervenientes ou apenas com os pais, ainda é extremamente útil. A «encenação» da noite, no sentido técnico e investigatório do termo, acto de reconstituição a partir do rol de elementos que constam do processo permite, em articulação com estes manter ainda hoje a memória viva da noite de 3 de Maio de 2007. Não se percebe, assim, porque não se realiza.
By the middle of May we had already proceeded with a second series of questioning of the nine tourists who spent their holidays in Vila da Luz. There was an increase in the number of contradictions between the various statements.
Despite the importance of a second questioning of Kate Healy it was decided to wait a little longer because the mother of Maddie would be too upset/shaken.
This is when the need arises to proceed with a reconstruction of the events of that night in an attempt to make things clearer. This is a very common investigative procedure especially when details and contradictions are piling up in a given case.
Considrable progress is made when a reconstruction is done. We would be in the presence of many of those involved – the group of tourists, the restaurant workers, the nursery teachers, and other witnesses. So the reader can see how very important a reconstruction of that night would have been.
The reconstruction can work as a catalyst for clarifying the sequence of events and their respective timings. If there are contradictions during the reconstruction they are immediately explained by those involved.
The reconstruction never happened. Why? Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.
The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices..
Even so, the reconstruction of that evening could have been done in a more discreet way with only the parents of the child who had disappeared. Essentially it would have the same effect of clearing up what happened at the time. Due to their direct responsibility (Parent-child) and the meaning and value of their statements the parents are the driving force of that night. No a priori judgement is intended, quite the contrary. It simply follows from the duty of cooperation, normal in such situations.
It is my opinion that this reconstruction, whether with all those involved or only with the parents, remains extremely useful. The “staging” of the night in the technical and investigative sense of the term, the act of reconstruction starting from the list of elements contained in the process allows, in conjunction with these the night of 3 May 2007 to be kept alive as a living memory today. It isn’t clear, therefore, why it is not happening.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-purpose-of-a-reconstruction/
Thats not a cite for sadies assertion that the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction, which is what i asked for but thanks anyway for taking the trouble
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Gerry said he checked but he went to the reception with manager John Hill much later at 10:40. Matt was also present but said nothing about Gerry being there before that time. Fiona sent Matt to go to main reception at around 10:10. Kate claims in Madeleine that it was in fact Gerry who told Matt to go.
Interesting that. For it is recorded in Jes Wilkins statement that John and Matt come up to his apartment at 1:00 AM.
But also there is a period when Matt is not in the apartment around the 10:40 period. I got that.
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Interesting that. For it is recorded in Jes Wilkins statement that John and Matt come up to his apartment at 1:00 AM.
But also there is a period when Matt is not in the apartment around the 10:40 period. I got that.
Matt went into 5A only once according to his rog interview. The police arrived later.
"I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back out, and that's the only time I went back into the apartment'." Matt Oldfield
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Matt went into 5A only once according to his rog interview. The police arrived later.
"I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back out, and that's the only time I went back into the apartment'." Matt Oldfield
That is alright. Very interesting that it was at that time.
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Thats not a cite for sadies assertion that the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction, which is what i asked for but thanks anyway for taking the trouble
As senior investigating officer if Mr Amaral was aware that a speedy reconstruction would have been appropriate, why didn't he order one at the time? As Bren has indicated in the cite I have provided ... Paulo Rebelo was not bound by the restraints Mr Amaral claims for his failure to do so.
He was aware of press criticism that such a reconstruction had not taken place ... so when writing his book he was hardly likely to record that his preferred miscreants had asked for one and had provided what he thought were compelling reasons to excuse his neglect.
The most risible of which was his concern that Madeleine's parents should not be subject to "um julgamento na praça pública." or a kangaroo court.
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And the only arguidos in this case to fail to answer questions are..............
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As senior investigating officer if Mr Amaral was aware that a speedy reconstruction would have been appropriate, why didn't he order one at the time? As Bren has indicated in the cite I have provided ... Paulo Rebelo was not bound by the restraints Mr Amaral claims for his failure to do so.
He was aware of press criticism that such a reconstruction had not taken place ... so when writing his book he was hardly likely to record that his preferred miscreants had asked for one and had provided what he thought were compelling reasons to excuse his neglect.
The most risible of which was his concern that Madeleine's parents should not be subject to "um julgamento na praça pública." or a kangaroo court.
That still isnt a cite for sadies assertion that the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction
Why not just say you cant find one instead of swerving the discussion,never mind
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And the only arguidos in this case to fail to answer questions are..............
Hmmm ... so you have seen a transcript of Mr Amaral's interview? That is interesting. Any chance of sharing?
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And the only arguidos in this case to fail to answer questions are..............
You are wrong to think that implies guilt. How come you guys seem to have get home free cards when you implicate the McCanns? Are there any pro-McCann people here?
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That still isnt a cite for sadies assertion that the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction
Why not just say you cant find one instead of swerving the discussion,never mind
There is one somewhere on the forum. Carana or Benice perhaps? If so, they will no doubt catch up with it tomorrow.
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(snip) ...Paulo Rebelo was not bound by the restraints ... (snip)
It was Rebelo who tried to arrange the reconstruction.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#p16p4190
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44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Quote taken from Mr Amaral's book ...
Em meados de Maio já se tinha procedido a uma segunda leva de inquirições deste grupo de nove turistas que passava férias na Vila da Luz. As contradições entre os diversos depoimentos aumentaram.
Apesar de ser importante uma segunda inquirição de Kate Healy, decidiu-se esperar mais algum tempo porque a mãe de Maddie estaria demasiado abalada.
É nesta altura que se coloca a necessidade de se proceder a uma reconstituição dos factos daquela noite numa tentativa de os esclarecer. Esta constitui um acto processual e investigatório muito comum, sobretudo quando se avolumam os pormenores e contradições de um determinado caso.
Progride-se consideravel- mente quando uma reconstituição se concretiza. Estaríamos na presença de dezenas de intervenientes – o grupo de turistas, os empregados do restaurante, as educadoras e as demais teste- munhas. Percebe assim o leitor o incomensurável valor que a reconstituição daquela noite teria.
A sua realização pode funcio- nar como catalisador no esclarecimento da sequência de factos e sobre a sua simultaneidade. Se houver contradições durante a reconstituição, instantaneamente estas são explicadas pelos seus protagonistas
Mas a reconstituição não se realizou. Porquê? Atendendo ao número de turistas que estava no aldeamento, o qual teria de ser fechado durante algumas horas, afectando as suas férias, pela necessidade de fechar o espaço aéreo, pelo elevado número de jor- nalistas num espaço que se tornara exíguo e ainda porque se temia que se achasse que os pais de Maddie e os seus amigos estariam a ser considerados suspeitos e, naturalmente, não queríamos um julgamento na praça pública.
Foi discutida esta possibilidade no seio da equipa de investigação, mas a decisão acabou por ser a sua não realização, apesar de algumas vozes discordantes.
Ainda assim, a reconstituição daquela noite poderia ter sido feita de uma forma mais discreta, apenas com os pais da criança desaparecida. No essencial, obter-se-ia o mesmo efeito esclare- cedor sobre o que então ocorreu. Pela responsabilidade directa (pais-filhos) e pelo teor e valor dos seus depoimentos, os pais são o fio condutor daquela noite. Isto sem que, antes pelo contrário, se faça qualquer juízo a priori. Apenas decorre do dever de coo- peração, normalíssimo nestas situações.
É meu entendimento que esta reconstituição, seja com todos os intervenientes ou apenas com os pais, ainda é extremamente útil. A «encenação» da noite, no sentido técnico e investigatório do termo, acto de reconstituição a partir do rol de elementos que constam do processo permite, em articulação com estes manter ainda hoje a memória viva da noite de 3 de Maio de 2007. Não se percebe, assim, porque não se realiza.
By the middle of May we had already proceeded with a second series of questioning of the nine tourists who spent their holidays in Vila da Luz. There was an increase in the number of contradictions between the various statements.
Despite the importance of a second questioning of Kate Healy it was decided to wait a little longer because the mother of Maddie would be too upset/shaken.
This is when the need arises to proceed with a reconstruction of the events of that night in an attempt to make things clearer. This is a very common investigative procedure especially when details and contradictions are piling up in a given case.
Considrable progress is made when a reconstruction is done. We would be in the presence of many of those involved – the group of tourists, the restaurant workers, the nursery teachers, and other witnesses. So the reader can see how very important a reconstruction of that night would have been.
The reconstruction can work as a catalyst for clarifying the sequence of events and their respective timings. If there are contradictions during the reconstruction they are immediately explained by those involved.
The reconstruction never happened. Why? Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.
The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices..
Even so, the reconstruction of that evening could have been done in a more discreet way with only the parents of the child who had disappeared. Essentially it would have the same effect of clearing up what happened at the time. Due to their direct responsibility (Parent-child) and the meaning and value of their statements the parents are the driving force of that night. No a priori judgement is intended, quite the contrary. It simply follows from the duty of cooperation, normal in such situations.
It is my opinion that this reconstruction, whether with all those involved or only with the parents, remains extremely useful. The “staging” of the night in the technical and investigative sense of the term, the act of reconstruction starting from the list of elements contained in the process allows, in conjunction with these the night of 3 May 2007 to be kept alive as a living memory today. It isn’t clear, therefore, why it is not happening.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/the-purpose-of-a-reconstruction/
Thank you Brietta.
I feel sure that somewhere it was said that The Mccanns wanted a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be.
I wonder, was it mentioned in the book "Madeleine"? Maybe it was on a youtube interview ?
The important point is that it didn't happen at the time. The time that everything was fresh in their minds.
.... and the excuses why it didn't happen were rather weak imo.
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As senior investigating officer if Mr Amaral was aware that a speedy reconstruction would have been appropriate, why didn't he order one at the time? As Bren has indicated in the cite I have provided ... Paulo Rebelo was not bound by the restraints Mr Amaral claims for his failure to do so.
He was aware of press criticism that such a reconstruction had not taken place ... so when writing his book he was hardly likely to record that his preferred miscreants had asked for one and had provided what he thought were compelling reasons to excuse his neglect.
The most risible of which was his concern that Madeleine's parents should not be subject to "um julgamento na praça pública." or a kangaroo court.
By the time Rebelo asked for a reconstitution to be done the McCanns were already arguidos so that Madeleine's parents and their friends would be subject to suspicion was no longer an issue and further by April/May 2008 there was hardly any media presence in PDL, another reason why the reconstitution did not take place in May/June 2007.
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By the time Rebelo asked for a reconstitution to be done the McCanns were already arguidos so that Madeleine's parents and their friends would be subject to suspicion was no longer an issue and further by April/May 2008 there was hardly any media presence in PDL, another reason why the reconstitution did not take place in May/June 2007.
To be effective, it should have taken place as near the actual time that Madeleine went missing as possible ... and I am talking days.
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To be effective, it should have taken place as near the actual time that Madeleine went missing as possible ... and I am talking days.
We are familiar with the reasoning behind reconstructions, Sadie, and would have considered the presence of a press hungry for facts not leaks and innuendo a very positive bonus in getting the information out to as many people as possible.
Who knows what memories might have been jogged.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Smith family ... some of whom remained in the thick of the press pack in Luz and whose younger children were distressed by Madeleine's disappearance ... did not put two and two together until a fortnight after the event.
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We are familiar with the reasoning behind reconstructions, Sadie, and would have considered the presence of a press hungry for facts not leaks and innuendo a very positive bonus in getting the information out to as many people as possible.
Who knows what memories might have been jogged.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Smith family ... some of whom remained in the thick of the press pack in Luz and whose younger children were distressed by Madeleine's disappearance ... did not put two and two together until a fortnight after the event.
To be fair, some of the younger ones went home the next morning so the family would have had other things on their mind. It is also fair to say that the distance between the Ocean Club Garden Block 5 and where the Smiths encountered the chappie would not have immediately engender up thoughts of an abductor.
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By the time Rebelo asked for a reconstitution to be done the McCanns were already arguidos so that Madeleine's parents and their friends would be subject to suspicion was no longer an issue and further by April/May 2008 there was hardly any media presence in PDL, another reason why the reconstitution did not take place in May/June 2007.
What sort of an excuse is that? Surely the more publicity for a reconstruction the better, but if the media was not welcome don't the police have it in their power to exclude them from the site of a potential reconstruction?
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We are familiar with the reasoning behind reconstructions, Sadie, and would have considered the presence of a press hungry for facts not leaks and innuendo a very positive bonus in getting the information out to as many people as possible.
Who knows what memories might have been jogged.
It is worth bearing in mind that the Smith family ... some of whom remained in the thick of the press pack in Luz and whose younger children were distressed by Madeleine's disappearance ... did not put two and two together until a fortnight after the event.
Except that was not the objective of a reconstitution. The Portuguese use the method to test statements not to see if Joe Punter remembers anything.
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Except that was not the objective of a reconstitution. The Portuguese use the method to test statements not to see if Joe Punter remembers anything.
So I have been told and we have seen the process as it was implemented in Joana's case. It does seem however that Mr Amaral became aware latterly of the value of using the technique familiar to us in the search for a missing child and not only as a vehicle for building a case against a suspect.
Why else seek to explain the omission to call an early reconstruction as an apologia for his lack of action in the terms he chose rather than use the explanation you have given.
John has pointed out that some of the Smith family departed the morning following Madeleine's disappearance. They were not the only ones departing on that day and the days following.
One wonders what the impact might have been had all these people at the time been made aware of the Tanner sighting much as we were in the Crime Watch reconstruction.
It was surely more important to find Madeleine than to 'solve' the case with a conviction. A golden opportunity for perhaps more witnesses coming forward who may have thought nothing odd about a child being carried through the streets was perhaps squandered.
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So I have been told and we have seen the process as it was implemented in Joana's case. It does seem however that Mr Amaral became aware latterly of the value of using the technique familiar to us in the search for a missing child and not only as a vehicle for building a case against a suspect.
Why else seek to explain the omission to call an early reconstruction as an apologia for his lack of action in the terms he chose rather than use the explanation you have given.
John has pointed out that some of the Smith family departed the morning following Madeleine's disappearance. They were not the only ones departing on that day and the days following.
One wonders what the impact might have been had all these people at the time been made aware of the Tanner sighting much as we were in the Crime Watch reconstruction.
It was surely more important to find Madeleine than to 'solve' the case with a conviction. A golden opportunity for perhaps more witnesses coming forward who may have thought nothing odd about a child being carried through the streets was perhaps squandered.
Dunno about most of that. I was just stating why the Portuguese use reconstitution.
As with many things in this case some of that which Sr Amaral is alleged to have done baffles me.
Second guessing what Sr Amaral did, why with which and to whom and viewing the case like it's Crimewatch or Without a Trace, can be a exercise in futility.
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Thank you Brietta.
I feel sure that somewhere it was said that The Mccanns wanted a reconstruction, but it wasn't to be.
I wonder, was it mentioned in the book "Madeleine"? Maybe it was on a youtube interview ?
The important point is that it didn't happen at the time. The time that everything was fresh in their minds.
.... and the excuses why it didn't happen were rather weak imo.
Oh so now we go from the assertion "the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction" to "well im not really sure" if thats right, they might have asked for one
NO NEITHER are true
Ie
Dont post thngs as facts when they arent
Dont wanna go creating myths now surely sadie something you slag others off for all the time
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Oh so now we go from the assertion "the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction" to "well im not really sure" if thats right
Ie
Dont post thngs as facts when they arent
Dont wanna go creating myths now surely sadie
No myths here.
I dont have the eyesight nor the energy to go searching for cites, but I am quite sure that somewhere it has been said that the Mccanns wanted a reconstruction at the time that Madeleine vanished (within days).
Amaral admits that he didn't organize it and IMO his reasons were weak.
So his police force would have been unable to control the crowd , eh ?
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No myths here.
I dont have the eyesight nor the energy to go searching for cites, but I am quite sure that somewhere it has been said that the Mccanns wanted a reconstruction at the time that Madeleine vanished (within days).
I am quite sure doesnt cut the mustard, sorry
Then maybe if youre right those with energy and good eyseight can fish it out, good luck to em,they will never find it
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Why are you making this accusation against Kates friends? I see myself as a friend *of* The Mccanns, altho I am definitely not friends *with* them, if you can see the difference.
I am a friend to them because I see a massive injustice with unthinking, or in some cases sadistic people (imo) ganging up against them and making disgusting comments and insinuations. People who get a kick out of hurting The Mccanns.
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Why are you making this accusation against Kates friends? I see myself as a friend *of* The Mccanns, altho I am definitely not friends *with* them, if you can see the difference.
I am a friend to them because I see a massive injustice with unthinking, or in some cases sadistic people (imo) ganging up against them and making disgusting comments and insinuations. People who get a kick out of hurting The Mccanns.
I repeat, why wasn't a reconstruction done in the days immediately after the abduction. Oh, I forgot, Amaral thought that he, the Police, couldn't control the media and interested bystanders. @)(++(*
His other comments for not doing it, about Kate being so frail, quite frankly do not wash.
He didn't bother about any fraility of Leonor, did he?
IMO, from virtually the beginning with very weak suspicions and NO proof of any sort, Amaral was already set upon "getting" the Mccanns. Same as he was with Leonor and Joao Cipriano. Very weak suspicions and absolutely NO proof of any kind.
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"The case has to be re-opened, and I have faith that it will be," he said. "It will either be when this current "procurador" leaves, or when the current chief of police leaves. It's not something I am pushing for - even if I could - it's just something I feel certain will happen. And when it does, the first, most essential thing to be done will be a reconstruction of that very first night – the night Madeleine disappeared. Because that's what happened: she literally disappeared! The reconstruction will have to involve all the parties: the McCanns and their friends. You see, there are so many inconsistencies in these people's statements that a reconstruction will very quickly highlight where they have not told the truth". GA 8 Dec 2011
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"The case has to be re-opened, and I have faith that it will be," he said. "It will either be when this current "procurador" leaves, or when the current chief of police leaves. It's not something I am pushing for - even if I could - it's just something I feel certain will happen. And when it does, the first, most essential thing to be done will be a reconstruction of that very first night – the night Madeleine disappeared. Because that's what happened: she literally disappeared! The reconstruction will have to involve all the parties: the McCanns and their friends. You see, there are so many inconsistencies in these people's statements that a reconstruction will very quickly highlight where they have not told the truth". GA 8 Dec 2011
So sayeth a Court proven liar. A perjurer who desperately wants to get at the Mccanns.
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So sayeth a Court proven liar. A perjurer who desperately wants to get at the Mccanns.
At the moment hes suceeding too. His book's back on sale and he is enjoying freedom of speech.
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At the moment hes suceeding too. His book's back on sale and he is enjoying freedom of speech.
He's been a bit quiet lately though. Is he all right or is he just busy spending the millions his book has generated since it went back on sale?
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Oh so now we go from the assertion "the mccanns pressed for a reconstruction" to "well im not really sure" if thats right, they might have asked for one
NO NEITHER are true
Ie
Dont post thngs as facts when they arent
Dont wanna go creating myths now surely sadie something you slag others off for all the time
Was the idea of the reconstruction just mooted to isolate those who didn't want to attend? A reconstruction wouldn't have worked any way. In any investigation the PJ needed to know who to concentrate their focus on.
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At the moment hes suceeding too. His book's back on sale and he is enjoying freedom of speech.
Bully for him
With the emphasis on the word "BULLY"
Making money on the back of a missing child !!! And at the expense of her grieving parents.
Money grabber and Bully.
All imo, of course.
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Bully for him
With the emphasis on the word "BULLY"
Making money on the back of a missing child !!! And at the expense of her grieving parents.
Money grabber and Bully.
All imo, of course.
He wrote a book explaining and defending his investigation. There was no guarantee that it would sell, but it did. The money grabbers then tried to take the proceeds off him.
All imo, of course.
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He's been a bit quiet lately though. Is he all right or is he just busy spending the millions his book has generated since it went back on sale?
The mccanns have been a bit quiet lately, are they alright or are they busy spendng the mllions their book generated
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I repeat, why wasn't a reconstruction done in the days immediately after the abduction. Oh, I forgot, Amaral thought that he, the Police, couldn't control the media and interested bystanders. @)(++(*
His other comments for not doing it, about Kate being so frail, quite frankly do not wash.
He didn't bother about any fraility of Leonor, did he?
IMO, from virtually the beginning with very weak suspicions and NO proof of any sort, Amaral was already set upon "getting" the Mccanns. Same as he was with Leonor and Joao Cipriano. Very weak suspicions and absolutely NO proof of any kind.
As is there no evidence let alone proof that the mccanns PRESSED for an early reconstruction as per your words, ie weak suspicions and no proof at all
8((()*/
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As is there no evidence let alone proof that the mccanns PRESSED for an early reconstruction as per your words, ie weak suspicions and no proof at all
8((()*/
I believe you this time.
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"The case has to be re-opened, and I have faith that it will be," he said. "It will either be when this current "procurador" leaves, or when the current chief of police leaves. It's not something I am pushing for - even if I could - it's just something I feel certain will happen. And when it does, the first, most essential thing to be done will be a reconstruction of that very first night – the night Madeleine disappeared. Because that's what happened: she literally disappeared! The reconstruction will have to involve all the parties: the McCanns and their friends. You see, there are so many inconsistencies in these people's statements that a reconstruction will very quickly highlight where they have not told the truth". GA 8 Dec 2011
Source: http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/goncalo-amaral-justice-works-in-silence.html