UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Opal on July 31, 2016, 09:11:41 PM
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I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog)
When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.
June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right of doorway by wardrobe)
As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed. Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over.
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How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting. For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical. David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.
I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.
Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country. It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.
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How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting. For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical. David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.
I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.
Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country. It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.
All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.
Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.
This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man, but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.
Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.
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All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.
Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.
This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man, but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.
Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.
Thanks for your comments, Neville was shot on his left side, no blood on his side of bed, once Neville saw the killer ( whilst stooped and looking out of window) he would have moved towards him to disarm him.
Was June asleep though? She could have been sitting up after waking Neville, she was then shot, she fell back on pillow. June had shots to her legs that could have been received at this time. I believe I'm right in saying the first shots were on her right side? If so, she could have been getting out of bed before being shot. Just my theory....
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I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog)
When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.
June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right of doorway by wardrobe)
As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed. Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over.
According to Malcolm Fletcher the shots NB sustained to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches. I don't see how this is compatible with your theory that NB was shot by the window at the foot of the bed? The casings eject forward and to the right therefore they would fall around the foot of the bed not by the wardrobe?
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All the shots in the massacre were contact or from close range.
Why would Bamber shoot Neville and June from the doorway ? They were sleeping and he could go up close.
This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept. Neville was next but started getting out of bed as Bamber started shooting. Bamber retreated slightly as Neville was a big man, but carried on shooting and hitting Neville. But not killing him.
Bamber retreating gave Neville the chance to escape. Pursued by Bamber.
According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the two shots SC sustained were "loose contact". It is thought one of the head shots NC sustained was contact and the shot June sustained between the eyes might have been contact but MF thought this "unlikely". Where's your source for all the contact shots you claim in your post above?
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Had procedures been followed ballistics, a biologist and pathologist would have been called to SoC. Had this happened it's unlikely we would be discussing the case now. There's no substitute for experts at SoC which in their absence leave voids which others are happy to fill.
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According to Malcolm Fletcher and Dr Vanezis the two shots SC sustained were "loose contact". It is thought one of the head shots NC sustained was contact and the shot June sustained between the eyes might have been contact but MF thought this "unlikely". Where's your source for all the contact shots you claim in your post above?
My post says all shots were contact or close range.
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How did Nevill get past the shooter as he was stood in the bedroom doorway shooting. For what its worth my own theory is that Sheila was either locked in her room or disabled in some way so that she couldn't interfere with what was going on and end up dishevelled and hysterical. David Boutflour touched on this when he made his "hardly a hair out of place" comment in one of his documentary appearances. If Sheila had been conscious and aware of what was going on she would have been extremely difficult to handle and so setting up a fake suicide would have been high impossible.
I do agree though that Sheila's first concern would have been for the twins so whatever happened she thought they were safe.
Shooting two young boys as they slept must be one of the most obnoxious and callous crimes ever to have been perpetrated in this country. It takes a very special type of deviant to do such a thing.
I agree Sheila would have been difficult if she knew what was going on.
I doubt she had a clue what was happening. There was no reason she would wake. Bamber then just had to get a few yards, the only dead body she would have passed was June's. Even then it may have been dark.
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I agree Sheila would have been difficult if she knew what was going on.
I doubt she had a clue what was happening. There was no reason she would wake. Bamber then just had to get a few yards, the only dead body she would have passed was June's. Even then it may have been dark.
I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on. There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.
Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and fingerprints on the empty casings.
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My post says all shots were contact or close range.
Your posts says "This is what happened with June. Contact shots as she slept". This is at odds with Malcolm Fletcher:
63. Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on. There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.
Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and fingerprints on the empty casings.
I have communicated via email with one of the world's leading experts on fingerprints. He has advised that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating known as bluing. Myster has seen a copy of the email which I am happy to share with you John providing it is kept confidential.
With regard to the casings. I believe they were tested although I haven't seen any firm evidence of this or any outcome. I believe fingerprints were difficult to recover from casings due in part to their shape hence CERA LT was developed. Had EP not destroyed the casings in 1996 it would have been possible to examine the casings in light of this new technology which may have shed new light on the case.
http://www.consoliteforensics.com/
I believe the silencer was also examined for fingerprints and none were found despite the relatives handling of it. I assume this was also coated and explains the lack of fingerprints.
Puglove did mention the wooden butt which I intend to raise with the expert. I've no idea if this area is treated/coated.
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I find that particular aspect bizarre, it was as if she was totally compliant or unconscious and unaware as to what was going on. There were no signs of tears or trauma on her face which leads one to the conclusion she might have been rendered unconscious before the shots and carried into the master bedroom where the killer enacted his suicide plan.
Had Sheila shot herself there would have been a distinct thumb print on the rifle trigger and fingerprints on the empty casings.
Bamber didn't knock her out. There were no marks on her.
Could he have slipped something into her drink at the last supper that would make her even more drowsy. That would not show in an autopsy report ?
I could easily spend 10 seconds lifting Sheila a few yards. She may start to wake. She may not. One thing is for sure, she would not have a clue what was about to happen.
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In the films people often put a hankerchief over someones mouth. The person then instantly passes out.
Hannibal Lector did it to an alive male in 'Hannibal'.
Bamber could have done something like that while Sheila was sleeping. Providing it left no trace.
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According to Malcolm Fletcher the shots NB sustained to his face were fired at a distance of a few inches. I don't see how this is compatible with your theory that NB was shot by the window at the foot of the bed? The casings eject forward and to the right therefore they would fall around the foot of the bed not by the wardrobe?
Holly, I found this article on the position casings can fall.
http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
During testimony, “experts” often cite that spent cartridge case ejection locations
from a semi-automatic firearm indicate the location of the shooter based on the
assumption that most spent cartridge cases land to the right and rear of the
shooter. The authors of this study investigated whether spent cartridge case
ejection locations are an accurate indicator of a shooter’s location. Eight different
semi-automatic weapons most frequently used by police officers were used to
collect data from eleven different shooting positions. The results highlighted the
significant inconsistency of the spent cartridge case ejection locations that
occurred across test positions even when several factors including firearm type,
firearm position, and ammunition were accounted for. Of 7,670 bullets fired, over
25 percent of the spent cartridge casings landed somewhere other than to the right
and rear of the shooter where it is commonly accepted they should land. That
pattern inconsistency is significant and demonstrates that determining shooter
location from the spent cartridge case alone leads to only a tentative estimate of
the shooter’s location.
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None of the eight small firearms in the above tests have a deflector plate like the Anschutz 525 rifle which forces the spent shell casings forward and to the right without fail. Which is why most of those ejected in the master bedroom when the assailant was stood around the foot of the bed firing at Nevill and June while they were in bed ended up on the floor between June's side of the bed and a cupboard.
Time to wheel out one of my favourite videos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
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None of the eight small firearms in the above tests have a deflector plate like the Anschutz 525 rifle which forces the spent shell casings forward and to the right without fail. Which is why most of those ejected in the master bedroom when the assailant was stood around the foot of the bed firing at Nevill and June while they were in bed ended up on the floor between June's side of the bed and a cupboard.
Time to wheel out one of my favourite videos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
You stole my thunder:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989
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You stole my thunder:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989)
@)(++(* Ah well... I owed you one!
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Holly, I found this article on the position casings can fall.
http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
During testimony, “experts” often cite that spent cartridge case ejection locations
from a semi-automatic firearm indicate the location of the shooter based on the
assumption that most spent cartridge cases land to the right and rear of the
shooter. The authors of this study investigated whether spent cartridge case
ejection locations are an accurate indicator of a shooter’s location. Eight different
semi-automatic weapons most frequently used by police officers were used to
collect data from eleven different shooting positions. The results highlighted the
significant inconsistency of the spent cartridge case ejection locations that
occurred across test positions even when several factors including firearm type,
firearm position, and ammunition were accounted for. Of 7,670 bullets fired, over
25 percent of the spent cartridge casings landed somewhere other than to the right
and rear of the shooter where it is commonly accepted they should land. That
pattern inconsistency is significant and demonstrates that determining shooter
location from the spent cartridge case alone leads to only a tentative estimate of
the shooter’s location.
I don't believe it's an exact science where some sort of gradient can be used as too many variables exist: objects that can impede flight, police officers accidentally kicking, Crispy nudging etc. However as Myster has pointed out the rifle in question has a deflector plate which appears to throw the casing up and forward along a certain path:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg290989#msg290989
The investigation you have quoted shows about 25% of casings deviate from the expected path. As NB was shot 4 times upstairs I guess we would expect 1 in 4 to go awry. However as pointed out the deflector plate might minimise any deviations.
I'm sticking with my theory I worked out a while back but happy for you to pull it apart ?>)()<
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
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?{)(** Holly I don't want to pull your theories apart, ( that's what I'm doing here, waiting for everyone to disagree with me!) @)(++(* in actual fact I'd copied your diagram earlier to refer to. I think we both agree the Neville wasn't shot in bed? I'm convinced he got out of bed after hearing/ or being told/ about a noise....could have been 'Crispy' barking. As Neville was shot on his left side, I thought perhaps the bullet and casings by the chair near the window fell from the shots to his left side, Now Myster says that's not possible, I wonder if some of the casings found by Junes side of the bed were from the shots to Neville... Would that be possible?
I realise you and Myster have studied this for much longer than I have, so excuse my ignorance on some points.
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?{)(** Holly I don't want to pull your theories apart, ( that's what I'm doing here, waiting for everyone to disagree with me!) @)(++(* in actual fact I'd copied your diagram earlier to refer to. I think we both agree the Neville wasn't shot in bed? I'm convinced he got out of bed after hearing/ or being told/ about a noise....could have been 'Crispy' barking. As Neville was shot on his left side, I thought perhaps the bullet and casings by the chair near the window fell from the shots to his left side, Now Myster says that's not possible, I wonder if some of the casings found by Junes side of the bed were from the shots to Neville... Would that be possible?
I realise you and Myster have studied this for much longer than I have, so excuse my ignorance on some points.
Having theories pulled apart is the way to go ?>)()< It separates the wheat from the chaff 8(>(( Scipio was most brutal about it which I quite enjoyed. A sort of S&M I guess *&*%£
My theory isn't without its flaws. The main flaw is that it is believed the shot June sustained between the eyes was fired where she was found. Due to the trajectory this puts the shooter and rifle facing the entrance which means the casing would eject around the entrance and I've allocated all these casings to NB. However my theory is the only one I can see that accounts for the trajectories and tracts of the shots NB sustained.
There's also the question of two casings marked up DRH/7 but I think something a bit dodgy went on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg295218#msg295218
Four factors need to be taken into account:
- Blood
- Casings
- Trajectories of shots
- Tracts of shots
You're a fast learner Opal and belong here on the UK Justice forum 8((()*/ 8(>(( One only has to look at Blue or the CT to realise this.
Had ballistics, a biologist and pathologist have been called to soc on morning of 7th Aug before anything or anyone was touched or moved then I'm pretty certain we wouldn't be discussing the case now. These are by far the most important aspects of the case not all the nonsense about bikes and lie detector tests.
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Having theories pulled apart is the way to go ?>)()< It separates the wheat from the chaff 8(>(( Scipio was most brutal about it which I quite enjoyed. A sort of S&M I guess *&*%£
My theory isn't without its flaws. The main flaw is that it is believed the shot June sustained between the eyes was fired where she was found. Due to the trajectory this puts the shooter and rifle facing the entrance which means the casing would eject around the entrance and I've allocated all these casings to NB. However my theory is the only one I can see that accounts for the trajectories and tracts of the shots NB sustained.
There's also the question of two casings marked up DRH/7 but I think something a bit dodgy went on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg295218#msg295218
Four factors need to be taken into account:
- Blood
- Casings
- Trajectories of shots
- Tracts of shots
You're a fast learner Opal and belong here on the UK Justice forum 8((()*/ 8(>((
Thanks for that Holly, I'll have a good read up on your's and Scripio ideas, only had a browse at the mo... I see what you mean about S&M... @)(++(*
One thing that's got me wondering is the casing on the right of SC... how could the casing end up here ( close to the door) if SC had the rifle facing her when she shot herself if the casing falls from the rifle to the right and slightly forward? &%+((£
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That's a no-brainer... the casing bounced off the side of the bed and/or the bedside cabinet. It might even have landed on top of Sheila and JB brushed it off when placing the rifle on top of her to simulate suicide.
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So therefore JB was standing to the right of SC's right foot as she is shown lying on the floor?
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So therefore JB was standing to the right of SC's right foot as she is shown lying on the floor?
To the right yes, although not standing but crouching or kneeling and holding the rifle's length close to her body to deliver the fatal second shot. In other words it was low enough for the ejected shell to hit the side of the bed/bedside cabinet and be deflected across her body. The second shot went directly up without deflection through the roof of her mouth into the brain, so the rifle must have been aligned almost parallel to her body when it was fired.
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Thanks for that Holly, I'll have a good read up on your's and Scripio ideas, only had a browse at the mo... I see what you mean about S&M... @)(++(*
One thing that's got me wondering is the casing on the right of SC... how could the casing end up here ( close to the door) if SC had the rifle facing her when she shot herself if the casing falls from the rifle to the right and slightly forward? &%+((£
As per the link you posted the location of casings is only a best guesstimate:
http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
I've read other articles which state factors such as angle of shot and pressure applied to trigger will alter the casings flight path.
A firearm designed to shoot vermin in open spaces isn't designed for use in a confined space. Any object might have caused the casing to ricochet such as bedside cabinet.
Experts/scientists are used to couching probabilities in terms of "unlikely" and "remote possibility" etc. Eg:
Malcolm Fletcher (Ballistics) = 63. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely.
John Hayward (Biologist) = 454. Mr Hayward then said that you could get different reactions if there was more than one person's blood present and he said that it was "a remote possibility" that the blood that he had tested was a mixture of blood from Mr and Mrs Bamber.
Now for Dr Vanezis:
Dr Vanezis (Pathologist) = 46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
If he was able to say it was likely or unlikely SC took her own life he would say as much. He doesn't as he is unable to say one way or the other. But of course folk all over the place know SC did or didn't take her own life %&5%£
JB was severely disadvantaged at trial by the fact gun related crime in the UK is low. Therefore homegrown expertise is low. There's no evidence any of the experts at trial attended training courses or secondments in USA where crimes involving firearms are significantly higher than UK due to gun ownership laws. Whether a pathologist with greater firearms experience could shed new light on the nature of SC's wounds I have no idea.
The above quotes are all sourced from the following:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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To illustrate the point about the experts above lacking firearms experience:
Firearms - related death rate per 100,000 population per year:
UK = 0.23 (2011)
USA = 10.54 (2014)
As an aside the case of New Zealander, David Bains, which has some similarities with JB's case shows the figure for New Zealand as 1.07 (mixed years). Does anyone know if any controversial cases exist in USA where the case hinges on murder or suicide? I suspect not as the expertise is such it will be conclusively determined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
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I believe that NB heard a noise that night, probably the dogs barking, ( pest dog)
When outside WHF JB told police that he couldn’t understand why his father hadn’t come out as when the dogs barked his father used to come out with his gun looking for foxes.
June B awoke hearing dogs bark and /or noise (JB was a light sleeper) she woke NB who got out of bed and stooped to look through window, he was shot 4 times, on his left profile, killer by this time standing at main bedroom doorway.( casings fall on right of doorway by wardrobe)
As killer turns to shoot terrified June B. NB escapes though main bedroom door to get gun in downstairs office, smearing blood on left side of hallway walls. At the same time SC wakes and makes her way out of her bedroom, sees killer following her father downstairs, and mother staggering from bed. Terrified, SC makes her way to her children’s bedroom to check on them, SC stays with twins she hides/ collapses in twins bedroom. After killing NB in kitchen, JB reloads rifle and returns upstairs to kill terrified SC. JB makes SC walk through the box room from the twins room to main bedroom at gun point, ( no blood spilt this way) makes her lay by bottom of bed (NB side of bed) shoots her once from doorway then shoots June B 2 more times, as Sheila not dead she is turned over, and placed face up then shot again at close range. The livor mortis on SC’s left arm proves her left arm was not touching the ground until she was turned over.
The way I see it, Nevill approached the shooter who was stood in the bedroom doorway, he was shot at close range and probably fell. June was next, shot as she cowered in bed.
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I agree John, I did think NB could have been hit as he faced the window looking for a noise outside but Holly and Myster said they were of the understanding that the casings fall slightly in front and to the right, so Neville must of been hit as he made his way to JB who was in the doorway.
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To the right yes, although not standing but crouching or kneeling and holding the rifle's length close to her body to deliver the fatal second shot. In other words it was low enough for the ejected shell to hit the side of the bed/bedside cabinet and be deflected across her body. The second shot went directly up without deflection through the roof of her mouth into the brain, so the rifle must have been aligned almost parallel to her body when it was fired.
I'm undecided regarding the casings found beside SC. Myster, The reason being... I think SC was moved to the position she was found after being shot. At some point she was on her right side for the blood to run down onto the right side of her nightdress. SC's forearm had blood on it where her right arm lay on her nightdress whilst she was on her side. The blood running down the left side of her mouth could have happened when she was moved.
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If NB sustained the GSW's to his lip and jaw around the entrance to the main bedroom with JB on the stairs or on the landing, or even just inside the bedroom door, I can't see how this can explain the trajectories which were 20 degrees below the horizontal. NB was 6'4" and JB 6'0".
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If NB sustained the GSW's to his lip and jaw around the entrance to the main bedroom with JB on the stairs or on the landing, or even just inside the bedroom door, I can't see how this can explain the trajectories which were 20 degrees below the horizontal. NB was 6'4" and JB 6'0".
NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!
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NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!
That sounds about right.
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NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!
If NB was lying in bed with JB standing at the foot of the bed the trajectory would be greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal. The casings would fall at the foot of the bed or on the bottom of the bed around the middle and there aren't any in those locations. None of NB's blood was found anywhere in the bedroom either.
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If NB was lying in bed with JB standing at the foot of the bed the trajectory would be greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal. The casings would fall at the foot of the bed or on the bottom of the bed around the middle and there aren't any in those locations. None of NB's blood was found anywhere in the bedroom either.
The angle depends on how the rifle was held and aimed - abutted against the shoulder, under the armpit or at waist level.
Why would the casings fall at the foot of the bed? Not according to the video which I've posted umpteen times of them travelling up and forward to the right at speed. Even if one or two fell on June's side of the bed or onto June herself, these could have rolled off onto the floor as she was getting up.
It also appears that no spots of NB's blood were found on the stairs or lower landing where you believe he was shot.
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The angle depends on how the rifle was held and aimed - abutted against the shoulder, under the armpit or at waist level.
Why would the casings fall at the foot of the bed? Not according to the video which I've posted umpteen times of them travelling up and forward to the right at speed. Even if one or two fell on June's side of the bed or onto June herself, these could have rolled off onto the floor as she was getting up.
It also appears that no spots of NB's blood were found on the stairs or lower landing where you believe he was shot.
I think it would depend if the perp was standing with his/her back near the window or close to the foot of the bed. From your vid it seems to me the casings would most likely end up on the bottom end of the bed in the middle. When June left the bed she would move the covers from left to right so I'm not sure how any casings that may have been on the bed would end up on the floor her side? In any event the casings June's side account for her GSW's only?
Two spots of blood were found on the landing carpet. Both tested but inconclusive in that the ABO groupings contradicted the victims' AK groupings so it wasn't possible to say whose blood. According to AE's WS the police apologised for not removing all the blood on the stairs although she says she couldn't see any. It doesn't appear this blood was tested but it seems likely it belonged to NB. There's no evidence June or SC left the main bedroom having sustained all their GSW's there. I think all concerned agree the twins did not leave their beds.
Blood stains on landing carpet
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
Blood stains on stairs carpet
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3100
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NB was lying prone in bed in the process of getting up when shot in mouth and jaw and therefore below his son standing at the foot of the bed, which obviously explains the downward trajectory... and also the location of the spent casings. It ain't rocket science!
Just remembered if JB was stood at the foot of the bed with NB lying prone in bed the distance would equate to a few feet and the facial shots were said to have been fired within a few inches of his skin:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
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Just remembered if JB was stood at the foot of the bed with NB lying prone in bed the distance would equate to a few feet and the facial shots were said to have been fired within a few inches of his skin:
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
You forget how long the rifle was, even longer if you believe a moderator was fitted. And if most of it was held over the bed, even more likely that the ejected shells would land on the carpet between right bedside and wall cupboard.
Nevill couldn't have been shot in the face while on the stairs or lower landing by Sheila (or Jeremy) standing on the upper landing. The casings would have finished up on the steps of the main stretch of the Hall stairs, and not where the two found are shown on plan.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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You forget how long the rifle was, even longer if you believe a moderator was fitted. And if most of it was held over the bed, even more likely that the ejected shells would land on the carpet between right bedside and wall cupboard.
Nevill couldn't have been shot in the face while on the stairs or lower landing by Sheila (or Jeremy) standing on the upper landing. The casings would have finished up on the steps of the main stretch of the Hall stairs, and not where the two found are shown on plan.
I've never known the length of the rifle with or without silencer. I did attempt to find out online and looked at the parts diagram you posted but to no avail.
If NB was lying prone with JB at foot of bed wielding the rifle over the bed so that the end of barrel/silencer was within a few inches of his skin, I fail to see how NB left the bed let alone the bedroom. Especially given the rifle was a semi-auto.
You've just reminded me how long the rifle is with or without the silencer. If SC was stood just inside the entrance with the ejection port also inside the bedroom and the barrel extending out onto the landing, angled at 20 degrees below the horizontal and pointing at NB's face whilst he was stood on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance, I think it's entirely feasible he sustained the lip and jaw shots in that location. The casings, as we know thanks to your vid, eject forward and to the right so this could account for DRH/3 and DRH/4.
I can picture in my mind's eye this scenario best by looking at the following photo.
As far as I can see it's the only scenario that fits with:
- Trajectories - 20 degrees below the horizontal as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Wound tracts - lip and jaw face on as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Blood staining on carpet - as per DC Hammersley - SoC officer
- Casings - as per diagram
- Distance of shots - a few inches from skin as estimated by Malcolm Fletcher/scientific officer for ballistics
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I've never known the length of the rifle with or without silencer. I did attempt to find out online and looked at the parts diagram you posted but to no avail.
If NB was lying prone with JB at foot of bed wielding the rifle over the bed so that the end of barrel/silencer was within a few inches of his skin, I fail to see how NB left the bed let alone the bedroom. Especially given the rifle was a semi-auto.
You've just reminded me how long the rifle is with or without the silencer. If SC was stood just inside the entrance with the ejection port also inside the bedroom and the barrel extending out onto the landing, angled at 20 degrees below the horizontal and pointing at NB's face whilst he was stood on the stairs immediately preceding the entrance, I think it's entirely feasible he sustained the lip and jaw shots in that location. The casings, as we know thanks to your vid, eject forward and to the right so this could account for DRH/3 and DRH/4.
I can picture in my mind's eye this scenario best by looking at the following photo.
As far as I can see it's the only scenario that fits with:
- Trajectories - 20 degrees below the horizontal as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Wound tracts - lip and jaw face on as per Dr Vanezis' autopsy
- Blood staining on carpet - as per DC Hammersley - SoC officer
- Casings - as per diagram
- Distance of shots - a few inches from skin as estimated by Malcolm Fletcher/scientific officer for ballistics
The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627 (http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627)
You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen? They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.
In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
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The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627 (http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627)
You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen? They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.
In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
43" is the same length as my drivers. NB was 6'4" = 76". In order for JB to shoot NB lying prone in bed within a few inches of his face, which is the distance estimated by MF, JB would need to hold the rifle away from his body and hang over the end of the bed. The casings would end up around June's head or the back of the bed and none were found in these locations. All the casings June's side of the bed pertain to her GSW's only. None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. There's no evidence whatsoever NB was shot in the bedroom.
I haven't forgotten the GSW's to the back of NB's shoulder and elbow. As I've explained previously I believe after NB sustained the GSW's to his face, whilst stood at the bedroom door facing in, he then turned to go back down the stairs. SC followed. As they were on the stairs facing down NB sustained the shoulder and elbow shot. The casings eject forward, up and right which accounts for DRH/13 and DRH/14. If you look at the photo I uploaded above you will see how the handrail slopes and the spindles in the banisters. I think it's entirely feasible the casings went over the handrail or through the spindles. I can't see any other explanation for:
- Trajectories
- Wound tracts
- Distance
- Casings
- Blood
I've never placed that much emphasis on the phone calls as they are subject to the vagaries of human behaviour. The fact you and others don't believe NB would make such a call doesn't make it so. If it's so unbelievable why did Chief Sup Harris, who had commanded over 60 murder investigations, believe it? And I certainly don't take any notice of anything JB says having been incarcerated for over 3 decades and surrounded by the likes of Mike and CT who fill his head with garbage.
If you disagree with my scenario/theory above please provide your own which takes into account trajectories, wound tracts, distance (of shots), casings and blood.
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Looks like your having a (http://i.imgur.com/DBUy1LW.gif) party over at IA, so I'll let you get on arguing with al, and whatever he says I'll agree with him... providing he doesn't change his mind about JB's guilt.
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Looks like your having a (http://i.imgur.com/DBUy1LW.gif) party over at IA, so I'll let you get on arguing with al, and whatever he says I'll agree with him... providing he doesn't change his mind about JB's guilt.
I think al has pretty much made his mind up on the tel calls alone 8)><(
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I think al has pretty much made his mind up on the tel calls alone 8)><(
So have I. You can't possibly believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight if she'd got hold of the rifle.
He'd say something along the lines of - "Where are you going to with that?"
"It's alright dad, I'm just off upstairs to take a few potshots at mum!"
"Oh no you're not, gal!" and he'd make to grab it off her straight away, before making any phone call.
JB has got his call to the Mirror reporter off pat. Doesn't this excerpt sound very rehearsed to you? - "I need more information - what, where, how, you know... what do you need me to do, how can I..." -
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
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I see you've got some drawing to do. Why not use this online program...
http://drawisland.com/ (http://drawisland.com/)
I've just tried it by importing the shell casing plan using the Browse button under the workspace, then drawing a couple of ovals and a straight line to represent two figures and the shot direction.
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The standard Anschutz is about 43" long. If you've got a Stanley tape measure, extend and lock it at 43", plus another 7" if you think a moderator was fitted, hold it to your shoulder over a double bed at the foot end and see how close the rifle muzzle might have been to the head of someone in the act of getting up.
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627 (http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=313&menu=106&seite=51&sprache=1&produktShow=detail&dlfotos=1&PHPSESSID=77f29b217478cf5d82b7c0201cc4e627)
You forgot about the other two wounds to Nevill's left shoulder and arm. Where did the ejected casings finish up if SC then had to move out of the doorway onto the landing to get those shots in as Nevill stumbled downstairs back to the kitchen? They couldn't have been DRH 13 and 14, because the casings ejected up and forward to the right and must have flown over the banister rail onto the lower staircase treads.
In any event, Jeremy Bamber's whole phone call story is unbelievable. It's impossible to think that Nevill would allow his daughter to slip past him in the kitchen armed with a loaded rifle while he fumbled about dialling a six-figure number, then waited for his son to wake from a deep sleep (in his own words "like a log") before answering. Any father's first move would be to follow his daughter immediately and disarm her before she had the chance to fire off any shots.
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
If Sheila had "the gun" (as quoted by Bamber), which presumably meant holding it, being in charge of it, and knowing how to chamber and reload it, there could not have been an opportunity for Ralph to step away from the situation and waste precious time calling Bamber, and hoping that he'd eventually pick up. If at this stage no one had been injured, Ralph would have done his utmost to reason with her, calm her down, disarm her. If Ralph had already been injured, there WOULD have been blood on and around the phone (the first point that I made on blue, years ago). If June and the twins had obviously been shot and probably mortally wounded yet Ralph hadn't, he would have done his best to escape from the farm and run to the nearest cottage for help. If he THEN called Bamber, it would have been to warn him, not invite him into danger. These are simple facts that Bamber failed to think through.
Plus.....the blood spots on the bedroom carpet were never properly analysed (as Scipio has pointed out) so some of them could have been from Ralph.
Seriously, what are the chances that the whole family were at the farm, the phones were dodgy and all over the place, Bamber had a new gun that had nothing to do with farming, he'd been bragging about being Lord of the manor, he'd told Julie about his plans (if you believe her or not, personally I do because she had so much to lose she could have been ripped to bits in court if she was lying) and why did Bamber ask Sheila when she and the boys would next be visiting the farm? He had never shown the slightest interest before. And his behaviour during and after the loss of the only family he'd ever known was shameful.
And...the caravan park robbery.
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So have I. You can't possibly believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight if she'd got hold of the rifle.
He'd say something along the lines of - "Where are you going to with that?"
"It's alright dad, I'm just off upstairs to take a few potshots at mum!"
"Oh no you're not, gal!" and he'd make to grab it off her straight away, before making any phone call.
JB has got his call to the Mirror reporter off pat. Doesn't this excerpt sound very rehearsed to you? - "I need more information - what, where, how, you know... what do you need me to do, how can I..." -
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
The reason people like Bamber and OJ can go on tape and say they are innocent, is because they believe they were justified in their actions. Although they know legally they broke the law.
OJ said to his long term girlfriend after his acquittal that Nicole 'deserved it'. Before the murders he was stumping out huge alimony payments to her and told people 'she would be nothing without me'. When Nicole started having public affairs and dictating when he could see the children, OJ took his action.
Bamber justified to Julie why each person should die. Doing CC a favour etc. He also wanted the inheritance and felt he was being treated unfairly.
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I see you've got some drawing to do. Why not use this online program...
http://drawisland.com/ (http://drawisland.com/)
I've just tried it by importing the shell casing plan using the Browse button under the workspace, then drawing a couple of ovals and a straight line to represent two figures and the shot direction.
Thanks. I fear I will have to take myself off into a room and sit quietly for days or weeks until I could get together anything anyone would recognise! I'll give it a go though. But really what's required is a 3d animated vid. I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around 8)><( I think I will see if I can outsource ?>)()< What are people called who do this sort of thing? Is it CAD?
Do you know if any scaled plans of WHF exist?
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If Sheila had "the gun" (as quoted by Bamber), which presumably meant holding it, being in charge of it, and knowing how to chamber and reload it, there could not have been an opportunity for Ralph to step away from the situation and waste precious time calling Bamber, and hoping that he'd eventually pick up. If at this stage no one had been injured, Ralph would have done his utmost to reason with her, calm her down, disarm her. If Ralph had already been injured, there WOULD have been blood on and around the phone (the first point that I made on blue, years ago). If June and the twins had obviously been shot and probably mortally wounded yet Ralph hadn't, he would have done his best to escape from the farm and run to the nearest cottage for help. If he THEN called Bamber, it would have been to warn him, not invite him into danger. These are simple facts that Bamber failed to think through.
Plus.....the blood spots on the bedroom carpet were never properly analysed (as Scipio has pointed out) so some of them could have been from Ralph.
Seriously, what are the chances that the whole family were at the farm, the phones were dodgy and all over the place, Bamber had a new gun that had nothing to do with farming, he'd been bragging about being Lord of the manor, he'd told Julie about his plans (if you believe her or not, personally I do because she had so much to lose she could have been ripped to bits in court if she was lying) and why did Bamber ask Sheila when she and the boys would next be visiting the farm? He had never shown the slightest interest before. And his behaviour during and after the loss of the only family he'd ever known was shameful.
And...the caravan park robbery.
I accept the carpet probably wasn't examined as it would be today. I thought the two samples tested were from NB's side of the bed but looking at the attached it seems they were taken from where SC and June were found. You can aslo see DRH/47 and DRH/49 which relate to small areas of blood staining on the landing. Tests carried out on these exhibits were inconclusive. But I can't see how the location of the casings in the bedroom or landing lend to a scenario of JB approaching the bedroom from the stairs?
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The reason people like Bamber and OJ can go on tape and say they are innocent, is because they believe they were justified in their actions. Although they know legally they broke the law.
OJ said to his long term girlfriend after his acquittal that Nicole 'deserved it'. Before the murders he was stumping out huge alimony payments to her and told people 'she would be nothing without me'. When Nicole started having public affairs and dictating when he could see the children, OJ took his action.
Bamber justified to Julie why each person should die. Doing CC a favour etc. He also wanted the inheritance and felt he was being treated unfairly.
Are you able to provide your theory as to how JB murdered NB please based on blood staining to carpets, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracts? I've pretty much given up reading Blue so if you've done previously then please just provide the link. Thanks Adam.
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Thanks. I fear I will have to take myself off into a room and sit quietly for days or weeks until I could get together anything anyone would recognise! I'll give it a go though. But really what's required is a 3d animated vid. I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around 8)><( I think I will see if I can outsource ?>)()< What are people called who do this sort of thing? Is it CAD?
Do you know if any scaled plans of WHF exist?
These are the nearest thing to scaled plans, but I think they're about as accurate as you will get... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981)
Probably traced by a police draftsman from some obtained at the Local Planning Department or from the family. Or maybe from the builder who converted the Back Kitchen into an Office/Den, Scullery, Upper Office and Store Room.
If I remember correctly, the solid external walls are about 13½"-14" thick (i.e. 9" brick length + a 4½" brick width plus mortar joint). So the room sizes, door and window openings, etc. can be roughly estimated from that. Perhaps a bit technical for you though?
The above plans are ones I developed further by guesswork, here... (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)), before we had photos of later plans like these in plastic covers (thanks to abs)...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Speaking of abs and her @)(++(* videos...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOIsxTmwmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOIsxTmwmk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-gB03xFFzg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-gB03xFFzg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs)
Aahh, those were happy days... before the McCannics turned up.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=32.msg2249#msg2249 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=32.msg2249#msg2249)
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But really what's required is a 3d animated vid. I remember Abs sent me some homemade humorous vids she made which were brill and funny but she's no longer around 8)><( I think I will see if I can outsource ?>)()< What are people called who do this sort of thing? Is it CAD?
Are you serious? Is it really worth the time, effort and money for a CAD (computer-aided design), animation or whatever, which will probably turn out woefully inaccurate?
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These are the nearest thing to scaled plans, but I think they're about as accurate as you will get... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633.0;attach=6981)
Probably traced by a police draftsman from some obtained at the Local Planning Department or from the family. Or maybe from the builder who converted the Back Kitchen into an Office/Den, Scullery, Upper Office and Store Room.
If I remember correctly, the solid external walls are about 13½"-14" thick (i.e. 9" brick length + a 4½" brick width plus mortar joint). So the room sizes, door and window openings, etc. can be roughly estimated from that. Perhaps a bit technical for you though?
The above plans are ones I developed further by guesswork, here... (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947)), before we had photos of later plans like these in plastic covers (thanks to abs)...
Thanks. Way too technical for me.
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Are you serious? Is it really worth the time, effort and money for a CAD (computer-aided design), animation or whatever, which will probably turn out woefully inaccurate?
Yes I am serious. I guess it doesn't need to be highly accurate just convey the general ideas in graphic format. It could be quite a powerful tool. The proseuction case against JB is that he entered WHF under stealth and entered the main bedroom where he shot June a total of 7 x's and NB 4 x's. And yet the blood staining on carpets or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks simply do not support this.
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Is there any firm pathological evidence the gsw June sustained between the eyes incapacitated her instantaneously? Or is it possible she sustained all 7 gsw's in quick succession? I think Dr V said he was unable to give an opinion about the order of gsw's June sustained?
If the latter, it is possible the perp had a full mag and 1 in the breech: 7 x June, 4 x NB upstairs? The mag was then partially reloaded in the kitchen resulting in the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen. If the mag was then fully loaded: 5 x DC, 3 x NC and 2 x SC?
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From CoA:
43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly. She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position.
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Is there any firm pathological evidence the gsw June sustained between the eyes incapacitated her instantaneously? Or is it possible she sustained all 7 gsw's in quick succession? I think Dr V said he was unable to give an opinion about the order of gsw's June sustained?
If the latter, it is possible the perp had a full mag and 1 in the breech: 7 x June, 4 x NB upstairs? The mag was then partially reloaded in the kitchen resulting in the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen. If the mag was then fully loaded: 5 x DC, 3 x NC and 2 x SC?
I've been trying to sort out the order of the murders with the rifle shots fired as well! I remember reading that JB told EP that he removed the full magazine and the bullet that was in the breech when he returned to the kitchen...but of course we only have his word for this! If JB didn't remove the bullet in the breech then what your saying is better than any order I've come up with. 8((()*/
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Yet at the cottage, Bamber told David Boutflour there was no bullet in the breech but he had left the loaded magazine in the rifle. He should have made his mind up as to which lie sounded more genuine.
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Yet at the cottage, Bamber told David Boutflour there was no bullet in the breech but he had left the loaded magazine in the rifle. He should have made his mind up as to which lie sounded more genuine.
In his 8th Aug WS he states he loaded 8 - 10 bullets into an empty mag and cocked the rifle. Having shot nothing he removed the bullet from the breach and popped it into the mag.
If he's innocent is he likely to remember what he did? It was just a normal part of farming life. He may well have felt embarrassed/guilty about leaving the rifle in such a reckless way. I don't know where the law stood then. When PS Adams asked about the firearms JB said something like I should say the bolts have been removed implying there were some rules/law about the safety aspect.
I've always thought NB would make safe and put away if left hanging around, especially with small children in the house. But he was short with BW, working late and may have been involved in some heavy discussions re SC's and the twins future and it was simply overlooked.
If he's guilty he could say anything.
In any event I'm now going for a full load with one in the breach resulting in 7 gsw's to June and 4 gsw's to NB. To my mind no other scenario makes sense. I've always felt uncomfortable about the shot June sustained between the eyes being delivered after the perp left the bedroom and returned. I wrongly assumed there was some pathological evidence showing this shot incapacitated June instantaneously but I don't now believe there is.
I remember Scipio saying something about some of the bullets had marks on which indicated they had been loaded once or twice previously and then emptied. Apparently keeping the mag full weakens the mechanism.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222
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FROM CAL'S BOOK - RECONSTRUCTIONS BY POLICE, SENIOR SCIENTIFIC OFFICER FOR BALLISTICS, MALCOLM FLETCHER, PATHOLOGIST, DR PETER VANEZIS AND AUTHOR, CAROL ANN LEE.
Police
"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.
Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.
Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, her returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
Pathologist - Dr Peter Vanezis
However, pathologist Peter Vanezis is of the opinion that the twins may have been the first to die.
Author - Carol Ann Lee
Climbing the stairs, he steeled himself to kill the greatest threats first: his parents. A thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom, where his parents lay sleeping. He stood in the doorway, lifted the rifle, and fired.
The first two shots pierced the right side of June's chest, embedding themselves in the pillow. Another shot hit her in the arm and a third travelled up inside her leg, lodging in her knee. The terrible impact woke Nevill, who lurched out of bed. Jeremy turned the gun on his father, firing four shots that caught him on his left side: two bullets penetrated his forearm and shoulder, and two tore into his lip and jaw.
Jeremy left the room, heading down the first flight of stairs and through the corridor to the twins' bedroom, firing one shot into each slumbering child. With all ten cartridges expended, he made his way down to the kitchen to reload.
He managed to slot four cartridges into the magazine before his father stumbled into the room. A fierce fight for possession of the weapon ensued: they fell against the table, knocking it into the dresser and sending crockery to the floor. The rifle struck the overhead lampshade, shattering it. Jeremy used the gun to beat his father about the arms, head and face; Nevill's watch broke and skittered across the lino. The struggle came to a brutal end near the Aga, where the rifle damaged the underside of the mantel. As Nevill collapsed over a chair, landing at an impossible angle with his pyjamas tangling around his feet, Jeremy brought the gun down on his skull, then fired four shots into his head.
The last produced a stovepipe jam, trapping the empty cartridge case in the ejection port. Jeremy removed the magazine and loaded it to its full capacity, then inserted it into the magazine well. Climbing the stairs again, he cleared the jammed cartridge by working the bolt. It fell out, rolling towards the skirting board on the first landing.
While father and son were fighting in the kitchen, June had managed to force herself up from bed. The commotion had also woken Sheila, who crossed the landing to her parents' bedroom, drowsy and confused. At the sight of her mother bleeding profusely as she steadied herself on the edge of the bed, Sheila rushed to the other side of the room, where the door to the box room was the quickest route to the twins. June staggered round the bed after her, but before she could reach Sheila, Jeremy returned with the gun.
Sheila froze. June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head and finally between the eyes. June hit her shoulder against the door as she slumped to the floor.
Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat. With six cartridges left in the rifle, he headed back down the corridor where he fired two further shots into Nicholas and four into Daniel, emptying the magazine. The element of 'overkill' would help his story that Sheila, in the grip of psychosis, was the guilty party.
He then retraced his footsteps to the master bedroom, intending to finish setting the scene. To his shock he found his sister incapacitated but still alive. Quickly, he returned to the kitchen, loading a single cartridge into the magazine. Upstairs once more, he crouched down and took aim. The bullet went into Sheila's brain, killing her instantly.
My reconstruction will follow shortly....
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My reconstruction will follow shortly....
....(http://i.imgur.com/bWa3ZZL.gif)
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HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION
- NB and SC in kitchen.
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun".
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it.
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2.
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on the landing stairs immediately preceding main bedroom. This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings: DRH/3 and 4.
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the banisters where it bounces and ricochets depositing two bloodstains on the carpet DRH/49 and DRH/47.
- The shoulder shot totally incapacitates NB's left arm.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen worktop by the phone. Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999. Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location. Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs.
- NB stumbles around the kitchen, bumping into furniture and ends up in a precarious position on the back of a kitchen chair with his body in a horizontal postion on the neck rest which is positioned vertically under his posterior. NB topples forward on the chair and his head wedges in the coal scuttle. SC uses the rifle to rain down blows.
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10.
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3. She entered via the door from the landing and leaves via the side door leading to the the box room. She passes through into the main bedroom where she shoots herself x 2.
* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:
* Blood staining to carpet or lack of
* Casings
* Distance of shots
* Trajectories
* Wound tracks
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Unbelievable from the start. He did go home... twice. First, when the Foakes heard him zoom past in the car down Pages Lane towards Head Street, and second, when he cycled back to his cottage either along Maldon Road or via the Sea Wall, after completing his murderous task.
As I've said numerous times before, if Nevill knew Sheila was "going crazy" with the rifle, he would have stopped and disarmed her before she had a chance to leave the kitchen, never mind climb the stairs. So there was no time-wasting phone call either before or after he was injured.
Had SC been positioned on the lower landing/winders firing down towards NB's back, DR13 and 14 would have been thrown through the stairwell into the Main Hall below, not to the right above her. Those two casings were most likely from the two headshots to June, collapsed at the doorway with the assailant on the upper landing and the rifle pointed vertically downwards (as per the casing diagram, second phase), or DRH14 was, as CAL mentioned, the result of a stovepipe jam being released by JB on his way back up from the kitchen.
How did a lightweight Sheila manage to lift and position a heavyweight Nevill across the chairback with his head conveniently in the scuttle so as to place those four fatal shots, without getting a trace of his blood on her hands, arms, feet or nightdress? No blood-stained clothes of SC's were found by either the police or relatives, had she decided to wash herself and change before commiting suicide.
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Unbelievable from the start. He did go home... twice. First, when the Foakes heard him zoom past in the car down Pages Lane towards Head Street, and second, when he cycled back to his cottage either along Maldon Road or via the Sea Wall, after completing his murderous task.
As I've said numerous times before, if Nevill knew Sheila was "going crazy" with the rifle, he would have stopped and disarmed her before she had a chance to leave the kitchen, never mind climb the stairs. So there was no time-wasting phone call either before or after he was injured.
Had SC been positioned on the lower landing/winders firing down towards NB's back, DR13 and 14 would have been thrown through the stairwell into the Main Hall below, not to the right above her. Those two casings were most likely from the two headshots to June, collapsed at the doorway with the assailant on the upper landing and the rifle pointed vertically downwards (as per the casing diagram, second phase), or DRH14 was, as CAL mentioned, the result of a stovepipe jam being released by JB on his way back up from the kitchen.
How did a lightweight Sheila manage to lift and position a heavyweight Nevill across the chairback with his head conveniently in the scuttle so as to place those four fatal shots, without getting a trace of his blood on her hands, arms, feet or nightdress? No blood-stained clothes of SC's were found by either the police or relatives, had she decided to wash herself and change before commiting suicide.
The 'night he didn't go home' was in connection with this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMUrBhYpduY
Casings eject upwards, forward and to the right. I think it's entirely plausible SC was able to shoot NB on the stairs with the casings ejecting over the handrail or through the spindles. SC was 5'7" and probably had the rifle positioned somewhere around her upper body with the barrel pointing downwards putting the ejection port higher. The stairwell is only a narrow gap. You can get a sense of how far the casings travel right by how far they travelled from the shots June sustained to her right side in bed. Also if SC was stood on the winder stairs I dont believe there's any potential obstructions there by way of spindles, handrail and stairwell.
If the assailant was on the upper landing with the rifle pointed downwards to inflict the two gunshot wounds June sustained to her head, the tracts of the wounds would not go up into her brain. Also if the ejection port was vertical the casings would be blocked by the door and its frame.
If DRH/13 and 14 pertain to June's gsw's this leaves 7 casings June's side of the bed (8 if you believe 2 x DRH/7 exist). Where was NB when he sustained 2 or 3 gsw's from the casings June's side of the bed? And where was NB when he sustained the gsw's pertaining to casings DRH/3 and DRH/4?
NB was 6'4" with long legs. I think it's possible he fell back on the back of the chair with his posterior on the back ie neck rest and then toppled forwards. Can you upload this image please.
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I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow. The photo you want is here... http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ (http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ)
(http://i.imgur.com/DjkLVLZ.jpg)
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I haven't contributed for a while but have been following the forum with interest. One question about your scenario Holly (well thought out and expressed imo) - if the sound moderator never left the gun cupboard that night, then how did blood ( mixed from persons, animals, whatever) get inside it? If it was tampered with by relatives/police, how could they have put blood into it, and more to the point perhaps, the "right" mix of blood to suggest it came from Sheila? This may sound a naive query, but I feel that the moderator and the DNA inside it is at the heart of this case.
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I'll come back to this sometime tomorrow. The photo you want is here... http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ (http://imgur.com/DjkLVLZ)
Thanks. I'm wondering if we should try and produce a silhouetted image of June rather than replaying a graphic image.
Also one of the shots June sustained to her head was when the gun was held at least one foot away from the body. Why would JB hold the rifle vertically over a foot away from the body?
63. Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
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JEREMY BAMBER - THE NIGHT HE MOST DEFINITELY DID NOT GO HOME BY HOLLY
- NB and SC in kitchen
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun"
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on stairs in landing immediately preceding main bedroom. This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings: DRH/3 and 4.
- A spot of blood falls to the carpet DRH/47
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the bannisters, first landing on the carpet between SC's bedroom and main bedroom depositing a small bloodstain DRH/49. It ricochets and bounces into its final resting place.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen worktop by the phone. Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999. Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location. Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs.
- NB ends up in a precarious position on the back of his kitchen chair. SC uses the rifle to rain down blows.
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10.
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3 and herself x 2.
* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:
* Blood staining to carpet or lack of
* Casings
* Distance of shots
* Trajectories
* Wound tracks
I look forward to a robust challenge ?>)()<
Fair play to you, Holly. You're the only Bamber supporter who isn't mental, deluded, lazy or in love with him. But we've been over these points SO many times. There is absolutely no way that Ralph would leave Sheila holding a loaded gun and call Bamber. You can't rely on the positions of the casings because they could have been disturbed. Equally, you can't rely on trajectories - how can we know what Ralph was doing when he received the non-fatal shots? Was he running, twisting, stooping, stumbling? Not to mention my 2 ancient hobby horses....the lack of expirated blood on Sheila, and the fact that her arm was still malleable because it had been lying across her abdomen, which is the last part of the body to cool.
And I still think that the caravan park robbery, and how it was staged, is relevant. What went on between Ralph and Bamber when Ralph discovered the truth?
I also think that you have to question why June was in bed (she was a light sleeper) if Ralph was downstairs dealing with a "psychotic" Sheila.
For Bamber ("tonight's the night") it really was shit or bust. If he hadn't been such a dick to Julie, he would have got away with it. And why doesn't he get his lawyers and campaign team to hound Julie to the ends of the earth? He never mentions her. Don't forget that she willingly came back for his appeal, but wasn't called..... &%+((£
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I haven't contributed for a while but have been following the forum with interest. One question about your scenario Holly (well thought out and expressed imo) - if the sound moderator never left the gun cupboard that night, then how did blood ( mixed from persons, animals, whatever) get inside it? If it was tampered with by relatives/police, how could they have put blood into it, and more to the point perhaps, the "right" mix of blood to suggest it came from Sheila? This may sound a naive query, but I feel that the moderator and the DNA inside it is at the heart of this case.
Hi Pauline. Welcome back!
Thanks for your comments re my reconstruction.
The flake of blood supposedly found inside the silencer is by far the most important aspect of the case and underpins JB's conviction. It is different from the blood on the outside of the silencer, the paint and hair in that the flake matches SC's blood by way of 1 x antigen, 1 x protein and 2 x enzymes. It isn't statistically individualising like DNA, about 8% of population will share the antigen, protein and enzymes, but given all that surrounds it it's very compelling evidence taken at face value.
The DNA testing carried out was by way of LCN (Low Copy Number) DNA. LCN DNA is capable of producing a profile from only a few cells, which may be as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt, and amount to a just few cells of skin. Jurors handled June's nightwear along with the silencer so it's possible and likely imo that skin cells were transferred then or at the lab. Bearing in mind DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged in 1985/86 so no precautions were taken to protect against contamination. The problem also with LCN DNA is that because the samples are so small it is not possible to identify the biological source eg blood, skin cells, sweat, saliva etc. The CoA ruled June's DNA was in the silencer and SC's wasn't but overall found it meaningless due to the potential for contamination which I agree with. DNA from an unidentified male was also found inside the silencer but again this is meaningless when you consider how it was handled.
We could speculate about the blood on the outside, paint and hair but it's immaterial in relation to the flake inside.
How did the flake get inside the silencer? I have good reason to suspect it was fabricated at the lab on the basis that EP convinced the lab JB was guilty and was going to get away with it. No one wants to think of a mass murderer walking away with some 400 plus k in 1985. I do have good reason to think this but I'm afraid I'm unable to say more at this stage.
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Hi Pauline. Welcome back!
Thanks for your comments re my reconstruction.
The flake of blood supposedly found inside the silencer is by far the most important aspect of the case and underpins JB's conviction. It is different from the blood on the outside of the silencer, the paint and hair in that the flake matches SC's blood by way of 1 x antigen, 1 x protein and 2 x enzymes. It isn't statistically individualising like DNA, about 8% of population will share the antigen, protein and enzymes, but given all that surrounds it it's very compelling evidence taken at face value.
The DNA testing carried out was by way of LCN (Low Copy Number) DNA. LCN DNA is capable of producing a profile from only a few cells, which may be as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt, and amount to a just few cells of skin. Jurors handled June's nightwear along with the silencer so it's possible and likely imo that skin cells were transferred then or at the lab. Bearing in mind DNA testing hadn't even been envisaged in 1985/86 so no precautions were taken to protect against contamination. The problem also with LCN DNA is that because the samples are so small it is not possible to identify the biological source eg blood, skin cells, sweat, saliva etc. The CoA ruled June's DNA was in the silencer and SC's wasn't but overall found it meaningless due to the potential for contamination which I agree with. DNA from an unidentified male was also found inside the silencer but again this is meaningless when you consider how it was handled.
We could speculate about the blood on the outside, paint and hair but it's immaterial in relation to the flake inside.
How did the flake get inside the silencer? I have good reason to suspect it was fabricated at the lab on the basis that EP convinced the lab JB was guilty and was going to get away with it. No one wants to think of a mass murderer walking away with some 400 plus k in 1985. I do have good reason to think this but I'm afraid I'm unable to say more at this stage.
Bosting science, Holl. Seriously, you're up there with Magnus Pyke!! 8((()*/
As long as you don't pretend that Sheila's blood could have been distilled from a bucket of water. That would be very silly. &%&£(+
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Fair play to you, Holly. You're the only Bamber supporter who isn't mental, deluded, lazy or in love with him. But we've been over these points SO many times. There is absolutely no way that Ralph would leave Sheila holding a loaded gun and call Bamber. You can't rely on the positions of the casings because they could have been disturbed. Equally, you can't rely on trajectories - how can we know what Ralph was doing when he received the non-fatal shots? Was he running, twisting, stooping, stumbling? Not to mention my 2 ancient hobby horses....the lack of expirated blood on Sheila, and the fact that her arm was still malleable because it had been lying across her abdomen, which is the last part of the body to cool.
And I still think that the caravan park robbery, and how it was staged, is relevant. What went on between Ralph and Bamber when Ralph discovered the truth?
I also think that you have to question why June was in bed (she was a light sleeper) if Ralph was downstairs dealing with a "psychotic" Sheila.
For Bamber ("tonight's the night") it really was shit or bust. If he hadn't been such a dick to Julie, he would have got away with it. And why doesn't he get his lawyers and campaign team to hound Julie to the ends of the earth? He never mentions her. Don't forget that she willingly came back for his appeal, but wasn't called..... &%+((£
I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed. Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction. Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'. The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant. The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.
I thought June took sleeping tablets? Was June on any other medication?
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I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed. Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction. Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'. The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant. The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.
I thought June took sleeping tablets? Was June on any other medication?
Well, Holl, we both know that only small patches of the carpet were tested. And we both know that the casings could have been kicked about. We also have no idea if June took any sort of medication that would have stopped her worrying and being on high alert if Sheila suddenly changed from being sad and slow, to hyper and brandishing a gun.
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I agree it's not possible to rely totally on the casings but a cluster gives some idea eg those at June's side of the bed. Also it's the totality of the crime scene in terms of blood staining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Bullet trajectories are widely used in crime scene reconstruction. Google 'bullet trajectory crime scene'. The gsw's NB sustained were such close range the trajectories are highly accurate and relevant. The pathologist wouldn't bother including if they're irrelevant.
I thought June took sleeping tablets? Was June on any other medication?
It's been posited, on Blue, numerous times that June had been seeing her doctor for several months prior to the murders. We're asked to believe, the underlying suggestion being, that she was suffering mental problems. However, if this was the case, June having previously had these problems, I wouldn't have thought that her GP would have allowed such a situation to carry on for months without referring her.
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Well, Holl, we both know that only small patches of the carpet were tested. And we both know that the casings could have been kicked about. We also have no idea if June took any sort of medication that would have stopped her worrying and being on high alert if Sheila suddenly changed from being sad and slow, to hyper and brandishing a gun.
It's not clear the actual size of the carpet samples removed for testing. Perhaps SOC officers were able to identify trails from one individual only. If you take a look at the image above of June numerous blood spots are visible but it doesn't appear any lead out of the bedroom.
The casings could have been kicked about but PC Woodcock observed them before and immediately after officers entered the main bedroom and hopefully care was taken not to disturb them. As firearms officers they would surely receive training in this regard? Someone produced diagrams showing all 25 casings. SoC photos were taken of every casing and these formed part of DC Hammersley's trial testimony where he talked through every casing aided by SoC photos. The prosecution and defence qc's and trial judge all pored over them. If they're seen as totally unreliable evidence why waste court time?
I thought I read somewhere June took sleeping tablets but maybe not. Perhaps I assumed she did on the basis RWB said she had difficulty getting to sleep and would often hear noises and wake NB to investigate. Would she hear noises if she was taking sleeping tablets? She also suffered mental health issues. Her last known breakdown was 1982. Did she take any medication for this?
If NB and SC were in kitchen with raised voices would June hear in the bedroom? It's a fair distance away? When FE and CC called NB informing him SC was psychotic (Mar '85) NB said he was unable to visit until the following day. June wasn't involved. She didn't say we must go immediately. Or if she did it didn't happen. NB turned up the following morning and he, along with June, took SC straight to St Andrews. Perhaps Dr F discussed SC's issues with NB and June and as a result they were quite laid back about it. Of course she wasn't in possession of a loaded firearm then but nevertheless they seemed pretty laid back given their daughter was psychotic and refusing medical treatment? June visited SC weekly in London travelling in her own car. If NB was unable to go why didn't June go on her own and stay with SC in London or take her to WHF?
Even today crimes involving firearms in UK are very low especially compared with US. WHF involved 25 gsw's and I just don't see the expertise existed to evaluate the scene properly. If you read the reconstructions above from the DPP and Malcolm Fletcher they contain glaring errors which don't support known facts eg pathological evidence showing the two shots SC sustained happened seconds apart:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
There's no joined up thinking. Today it would be a multi-disciplinary approach where all concerned would visit SoC and come to a joint decision eg SoC officers, ballistics, pathologist, biologist, psychologist/psychiatrist.
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Thank you for your info Holly, much appreciated. 8@??)(
It seems to me that human blood inside or on the moderator, whoever in the family it came from, is damaging to JB. If SC had carried out the murders, it would indicate that she killed everyone with the moderator on the rifle, put the moderator back in the cupboard, went back upstairs to the master bedroom and shot herself. Unlikely, but theoretically possible.
But as SC's wounds were contact or near contact shots, it's reasonable to assume that some blood would be drawn back into the barrel without the moderator present. But I understand that that was not the case.
As you say, it's again theoretically possible that EP put pressure on the lab to come up with a result that would incriminate JB, given that other forces have been found to be corrupt and / or incompetent. But would the lab have complied, as I think they would not have wanted to risk ignominy if it got out.
Overall, IMO, the silencer is fatal to JB's case.
But I would be interested to be proved wrong. &%+((£
Thanks again.
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I haven't contributed for a while but have been following the forum with interest. One question about your scenario Holly (well thought out and expressed imo) - if the sound moderator never left the gun cupboard that night, then how did blood ( mixed from persons, animals, whatever) get inside it? If it was tampered with by relatives/police, how could they have put blood into it, and more to the point perhaps, the "right" mix of blood to suggest it came from Sheila? This may sound a naive query, but I feel that the moderator and the DNA inside it is at the heart of this case.
The part which strikes me as significant is the fact that human blood was found on and inside the sound moderator/silencer. There is no possible innocent explanation for this and Jeremy Bamber didn't even attempt to provide one.
In addition, the absence of identifiable fingerprints on the silencer means it cannot be linked to Sheila since people who are in intent upon murder suicide don't usually bother to wipe their fingerprints off the murder weapon let alone put the silencer associated with it away in a cupboard.
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Thank you for your info Holly, much appreciated. 8@??)(
It seems to me that human blood inside or on the moderator, whoever in the family it came from, is damaging to JB. If SC had carried out the murders, it would indicate that she killed everyone with the moderator on the rifle, put the moderator back in the cupboard, went back upstairs to the master bedroom and shot herself. Unlikely, but theoretically possible.
But as SC's wounds were contact or near contact shots, it's reasonable to assume that some blood would be drawn back into the barrel without the moderator present. But I understand that that was not the case.
As you say, it's again theoretically possible that EP put pressure on the lab to come up with a result that would incriminate JB, given that other forces have been found to be corrupt and / or incompetent. But would the lab have complied, as I think they would not have wanted to risk ignominy if it got out.
Overall, IMO, the silencer is fatal to JB's case.
But I would be interested to be proved wrong. &%+((£
Thanks again.
You're welcome 8((()*/
There's a significant difference between the blood on the outside and the blood supposedly found inside. As you can see from the following table the blood on the outside of the silencer only provided a positive result for blood and human in origin. Unlikely a jury would convict on this especially given the 'chain of custody' attached to it. The blood inside provided a result for the ABO antigen, EAP and AK enzymes and HP protein which matched SC's. As I said before it's not statistically individualising but quite compelling to put before a jury. This IMO is what swayed 8/10 jurors and it's this that needs overcoming if JB's sentence is to be quashed.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462
All this nonsense about blood being an intimate mix of NB's and June's. Or SC shooting herself once and then returning the silencer to the cupboard is not even worthy of discussion. There's absolutely zero chance.
I think the pathologist refers to SC's wounds as "loose contact".
Why do you think it's a reasonable assumption that some blood would be drawn back into the barrel without the moderator? Draw-back is a complex phenomenon. All the conditions have to be right:
- Anatomical location - head most likely
- Calibre of weapon - large
- Velocity of bullet - high
- Other biological material often present eg tissue and bone fragments.
In JB's case the conditions don't support draw-back ie anatomical location is neck, calibre is small and velocity is low and no other biological material present. A silencer will minimise the chances further due to the way the gases are released when the firearm is fired.
It's worth noting too that it is thought, as per Malcolm Fletcher, that DC sustained a contact wound to the head. Due to the anatomical location this would be more likely to result in draw-back but none of DC's blood was found in the silencer.
We could spend much time speculating about how the evidence was fabricated but why bother when we can demolish the conclusion. £4%4£
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The part which strikes me as significant is the fact that human blood was found on and inside the sound moderator/silencer. There is no possible innocent explanation for this and Jeremy Bamber didn't even attempt to provide one.
In addition, the absence of identifiable fingerprints on the silencer means it cannot be linked to Sheila since people who are in intent upon murder suicide don't usually bother to wipe their fingerprints off the murder weapon let alone put the silencer associated with it away in a cupboard.
Does it not strike you as strange John that FSS examined the silencer on 13th Aug and handed it back to EP for fingerprinting elsewhere and then safe-keeping. EP then returned the silencer to FSS on 12th Sep and hey ho as if by magic a blood flake appeared inside.
As you know I've had email contact with a fingerprint expert. He advised that fingerprints on firearms are rare due to the coating known as 'blueing'. Are silencers also coated with this? I don't know the answer. In any event the silencer was fingerprinted and none were found. The relatives handled the silencer.
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Re PH bluing above: http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/266351-how-not-to-clean-a-moderator/ (http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/266351-how-not-to-clean-a-moderator/)
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Holly, I meant that it might have been expected that there would be Sheila's blood on the end of the barrel if either a) the moderator was never on the rifle in the first place, in which case there might have been everyone's blood on it, including hers or b) Sheila took it off before killing herself. I think I have read that there was no blood on the end of the barrel at all, is that right?
Which says to me that the moderator was on the rifle for all the killings, including Sheila's.
Which would then point to JB's guilt .
I have to stress that I am unsure of his guilt or innocence at this point, so will keep an open mind and keep up with the forum.
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Not necessarily drawn back up the barrel, but perhaps around the end of the outside of the barrel, as it was so close to the wounds.
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Does it not strike you as strange John that FSS examined the silencer on 13th Aug and handed it back to EP for fingerprinting elsewhere and then safe-keeping. EP then returned the silencer to FSS on 12th Sep and hey ho as if by magic a blood flake appeared inside.
As you know I've had email contact with a fingerprint expert. He advised that fingerprints on firearms are rare due to the coating known as 'blueing'. Are silencers also coated with this? I don't know the answer. In any event the silencer was fingerprinted and none were found. The relatives handled the silencer.
I must admit the apparent movements of the primary sound moderator (two others were evident) could be construed as suspicious. The changes to its labelling and referencing might appear odd but when it is explained it becomes very logical. It was sheer coincidence that two of the individuals who came into contact with the sound moderator, namely police photographer David Bird and Jeremy Bamber's cousin David Robert Boutflour both had the same initials. It was very logical therefore that the reference be changed from DB/1 to DRB/1. In fact it is well documented in witness statements taken in 1991 as part of the COLP investigation.
The handling and custody of the moderator might appear sloppy but this was 1985 when these things just weren't done the way they are these days. As far as the double testing of the moderator, what can one say? Obviously the initial testing was seen as inadequate so further testing was called for. Beyond that I cannot make any more of it.
The absence of identifiable fingerprints on the rifle, the magazine, the sound moderator and the shells indicates to me that the perpetrator wore gloves. This again being something someone intent upon murder suicide would never consider necessary.
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HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
That not correct Holly. JB stated the line went dead so whoever had the telephone handset cancelled the call before leaving the handset dangling. Furthermore, had there been shots while Nevill was stood in the kitchen speaking to Jeremy on the phone then Jeremy would have heard them. He didn't!
I find no support for the claim that Nevill was shot after speaking with Jeremy on the phone and after returning to the bedroom. The location of the empty casings indicates Nevill had just got out of bed and was approaching his assailant from his side of the bedroom when he was first shot.
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HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION
- NB is standing on the landing stairs immediately preceding main bedroom. This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings: DRH/3 and 4.
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
This requires the gunman to be standing at the top of the stairs shooting down. Had this occurred the spent casings associated with Nevill would have all been found on or at the bottom of the stairs and not in the master bedroom.
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Re PH bluing above: http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/266351-how-not-to-clean-a-moderator/ (http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/266351-how-not-to-clean-a-moderator/)
Thanks. I assumed it was probably treated with 'bluing' but it's never a good idea to assume! For the sake of completeness I will email the expert again and just clarify the silencer and also the butt section of the rifle puglove raised. Are there any other questions you can think of in terms of fingerprints?
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Not necessarily drawn back up the barrel, but perhaps around the end of the outside of the barrel, as it was so close to the wounds.
Good point. I hadn't really looked at it like that previously. I've just concentrated my efforts on disproving the silencer was used.
I think ballistics is very complex with many different factors coming into play and you would need to research it taking into account SC's wounds, type of bullet and firearm. The following gif gives some idea of what happens when a bullet leaves the end of a barrel and silencer. You can see you will have 2 colliding forces: the hot gases exiting the barrel/silencer when the firearm is discharged and potentially blood and other biological material exiting a gunshot wound and depositing on and/or inside the barrel/silencer. The bullets used were subsonic and the speed in which they exit the barrel and enter the victim might be slower than any deflection of barrel away from wound site after the trigger is pulled. Also the type of bullet used was hollow point which expand upto 3 x's their original size upon penetration. I think these might be the sort of factors to consider. The image of SC we are all familiar with shows the end of the barrel is positioned away from any obvious signs of blood.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=how+a+silencer+works+gif&safe=strict&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNidup-8XOAhUOM8AKHcYkB6YQsAQIHQ&biw=729&bih=339#imgrc=XjzMHPP97UONnM%3A
Unlike the silencer I haven't seen any diagrams showing the blood on the rifle. I've only seen the following text and confirmation no blood was found inside the barrel on a pull-through:
"71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful. A "pull-through" on the barrel of the rifle was conducted for any traces of blood within the weapon. There were none".
If the silencer/draw-back can be discredited surely this begs the question how blood ended up inside and suggests this evidence was fabricated? If evidence was fabricated why if the case against JB was strong? Why didn't police, scientists, prosecutors consider the barrel and run tests showing that had SC shot herself with the barrel in contact, albeit "loose contact", then blood and/or other biological material eg tissue, bone fragments would be on the end of the barrel? It is possible to create simulations, 'No humans need apply'!
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That not correct Holly. JB stated the line went dead so whoever had the telephone handset cancelled the call before leaving the handset dangling. Furthermore, had there been shots while Nevill was stood in the kitchen speaking to Jeremy on the phone then Jeremy would have heard them. He didn't!
I find no support for the claim that Nevill was shot after speaking with Jeremy on the phone and after returning to the bedroom. The location of the empty casings indicates Nevill had just got out of bed and was approaching his assailant from his side of the bedroom when he was first shot.
It might not be correct it's a reconstruction of what I think might have happened. But the call definitely wasn't cancelled as the police were able to ask the GPO to listen in on the open line at 4.30 am. Had the call been cancelled it would not be possible to do this:
27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm. A check made by a British Telecom operator of the telephone line to the farm was made at 4.30 a.m. The receiver was off the hook and all the operator could hear was the sound of a dog barking.
I don't think the old style rotary dial phones had any sort of volume control? I doubt JB would hear a .22 going off in the main bedroom through the mouthpiece of a phone handset in the kitchen? Surely this would mean if he could hear that the sound of a voice speaking directly into the mouthpiece would be so amplified it would burst an eardrum?
It doesn't appear to me there's any evidence whatsover NB was shot anywhere in the bedroom:
- No casings other than DRH/3 and DRH/4 which lend support to the perp shooting out of the doorway at NB stood on the stairs
- No evidence of any of NB's blood anywhere in the bedroom
- The trajectories don't fit
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I must admit the apparent movements of the primary sound moderator (two others were evident) could be construed as suspicious. The changes to its labelling and referencing might appear odd but when it is explained it becomes very logical. It was sheer coincidence that two of the individuals who came into contact with the sound moderator, namely police photographer David Bird and Jeremy Bamber's cousin David Robert Boutflour both had the same initials. It was very logical therefore that the reference be changed from DB/1 to DRB/1. In fact it is well documented in witness statements taken in 1991 as part of the COLP investigation.
The handling and custody of the moderator might appear sloppy but this was 1985 when these things just weren't done the way they are these days. As far as the double testing of the moderator, what can one say? Obviously the initial testing was seen as inadequate so further testing was called for. Beyond that I cannot make any more of it.
The absence of identifiable fingerprints on the rifle, the magazine, the sound moderator and the shells indicates to me that the perpetrator wore gloves. This again being something someone intent upon murder suicide would never consider necessary.
I can't ever recall posting about the exhibit labels. I don't see the relevance. The prosecution case against JB is one silencer containing a blood flake which matched SC's blood type/group.
I just find it strange that Glynis Howard examined the silencer on 13th Aug and observed blood leading into the aperture and didn't take it upon herself to examine it further then and there? She was only able to confirm the blood on the outside and around the aperture was in fact blood and human in origin. But she wasn't to know there may not have been more blood on the inside which was capable of producing more results, which is of course what happened about a month later. Surely a forensic scientist would open it up to look for more blood and the grey hair which supposedly was at some stage attached but got lost in transit of the way from EP to FSS during the first examination on 13th Aug.
As I have said John I have had email contact with an expert in fingerprints. Myster has seen a copy of the email from the forensic scientist's work email address ie there's no possibility I've faked it up. Anyway the expert confirmed that fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating know as 'bluing'. I believe the silencer is also coated the same which accounts for the lack of fingerprints from the relatives who handled the silencer extensively ungloved. It was difficult to recover fingerprints from shells due to the shape hence CERA LT was developed in 2008.
What's interesting and alarming is that the CoA doc focuses on fingerprints found on the rifle but makes no comment about the lack of fingerprints from the relatives handling the silencer ungloved.
72. The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes.
Recovery of the sound moderator 73. On 10 August 1985 members of the family, who were far from convinced that Sheila Caffell had been responsible for the killings, went to White House Farm with the executor of the estate, Basil Cock. During the afternoon David Boutflour found the sound moderator together with the telescopic sights for the murder weapon at the back of the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. His father, his sister Ann Eaton, the executor and the farm secretary all witnessed the recovery.
74. The silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's address for safekeeping and that evening members of the family examined it. They noticed that the "gun blue" of the surface had been damaged and there appeared to be red paint and blood upon it. The moderator was packaged up and the police were informed of the discovery. When collected by DS Jones on 12 August he noticed a grey hair, about an inch long attached to it. By the time the moderator had been delivered to the Forensic Science Service at Huntingdon the hair had been lost.
What's really alarming is that when CAL interviewed DI Cook he said the following:
"Had she [SC] extensively and firmly handled the gun with unprotected hands prior to her death, I would have expected to see more evidence of finger marks or ridge detail on the gun when firing, loading etc".
DI Cook was considered the fingerprint expert and yet his views above are completely at odds with arguably one of the world's top forensic scientists in fingerprints.
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This requires the gunman to be standing at the top of the stairs shooting down. Had this occurred the spent casings associated with Nevill would have all been found on or at the bottom of the stairs and not in the master bedroom.
If the perp was stood on the winder stairs and/or on the main staircase (2 shots) shooting down then as far as I can see it is possible this accounts for the two casings on the landing DRH/13 and DRH/14. Casings from the rifle eject up, forward and to the right and I understand can travel 2 - 3 metres. The following photo gives some idea of the dimensions involved.
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Something for you to juggle with, Holly... when it's raining on your Butlins break in Bognor!
Download this free program (only 17MB) and install it... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer)
Then download these two WHF FF Casings Animated .skb and .skp files to your desktop... https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
When you start the program, first maximise the window. On the Menu Bar, click File, then Open; navigate to those two downloaded files above and click on the WHF FF Casings Animated.skp file.
WHF First Floor should now come into view.
Using a mouse, you can the click on the various icons on the left to Orbit, Pan, and Zoom around the model. Better still if you have a 3 or 5 button scroll-wheel mouse, because the scrolling action will zoom in and out, and by pressing and holding down the scroll wheel you can also rotate the model. Holding down the Left Shift keyboard button at the same time as the scroll wheel will enable you to pan, and re-centre the model easily. You might struggle with a laptop touchpad though.
Click on the Scene 1-10 tab buttons in turn, to cycle through an animation. On the Menu Bar, you can also click on View, then Animation, then Play for a continuous animation until you press Stop.
If you get lost, click on the Zoom Extents button (a magnifying glass with three red arrows) on the left to return to a full screen model view.
Only a rough trial at this early stage, without details such as doors, windows, balusters, handrail, colours, etc... but should give you a better idea of the stair and bedroom layout than just a plan.
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It might not be correct it's a reconstruction of what I think might have happened. But the call definitely wasn't cancelled as the police were able to ask the GPO to listen in on the open line at 4.30 am. Had the call been cancelled it would not be possible to do this:
27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm. A check made by a British Telecom operator of the telephone line to the farm was made at 4.30 a.m. The receiver was off the hook and all the operator could hear was the sound of a dog barking.
I don't think the old style rotary dial phones had any sort of volume control? I doubt JB would hear a .22 going off in the main bedroom through the mouthpiece of a phone handset in the kitchen? Surely this would mean if he could hear that the sound of a voice speaking directly into the mouthpiece would be so amplified it would burst an eardrum?
It doesn't appear to me there's any evidence whatsover NB was shot anywhere in the bedroom:
- No casings other than DRH/3 and DRH/4 which lend support to the perp shooting out of the doorway at NB stood on the stairs
- No evidence of any of NB's blood anywhere in the bedroom
- The trajectories don't fit
That too is incorrect. As long as the handset was not on the cradle, the BT operator could listen in regardless of whether the last call had been cancelled or not.
As regards gunshots in the house, if Nevill was in the kitchen and could hear them then Jeremy could hear them too unless he was stone deaf.
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HOLLY'S RECONSTRUCTION
- NB and SC in kitchen.
- SC in possession of fully loaded rifle: 10 in mag and 1 in breach.
- NB phones JB: "Sheila's gone crazy, she's got the gun".
- SC goes upstairs to the main bedroom and shoots June 7 x's in quick succession whilst June is either in bed or starts to move out of it.
- 3 x bullets exit: DRH/9, 35 x 2.
- 7 x casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43.
- Meanwhile in the kitchen NB hears shots he drops the handset on kitchen worktop leaving the line open and goes upstairs.
- NB is standing on the landing stairs immediately preceding main bedroom. This places NB on a lower elevation than SC who is now standing at the entrance facing NB diagonally and on a higher elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: lip and jaw. 2 casings: DRH/3 and 4.
- NB turns and is now located on the main staircase facing down towards the hall.
- SC follows behind and is once again on a higher elevation with NB on a lower elevation which account for the downward trajectory of both shots.
- SC shoots NB twice: back of the left shoulder and left elbow. 2 casings: DRH/13 and 14.
- The elbow is a graze wound and the bullet DRH/5 skims the side of NB's elbow and chest, then passes through the spindles of the banisters where it bounces and ricochets depositing two bloodstains on the carpet DRH/49 and DRH/47.
- The shoulder shot totally incapacitates NB's left arm.
- NB leaves a trail of blood on stairs, hall wallpaper and across kitchen floor.
- SC realises rifle is empty.
- In the kitchen NB places his bloody hand on the kitchen worktop by the phone. Perhaps intending to warn off JB or dial 999. Or even remove bullets JB left on worktop and found by police in same location. Pathologist states the lip and jaw wounds caused such internal damage purposeful talk would not be possible.
- NB is in severe pain, losing blood fast internally and externally and has lost complete use of his left arm from the shoulder shot as stated by the pathologist.
- The idea of any sort of struggle in the kitchen let alone a "violent struggle" is completely out of the question due to the injuries NB sustained upstairs.
- NB stumbles around the kitchen, bumping into furniture and ends up in a precarious position on the back of a kitchen chair with his body in a horizontal postion on the neck rest which is positioned vertically under his posterior. NB topples forward on the chair and his head wedges in the coal scuttle. SC uses the rifle to rain down blows.
- SC inserts 4 bullets into the magazine and fires them into NB's head.
- SC reloads the magazine to its full capacity of 10.
- SC returns upstairs and shoots DC x 5, NC x 3. She entered via the door from the landing and leaves via the side door leading to the the box room. She passes through into the main bedroom where she shoots herself x 2.
* The silencer did not leave the gun cupboard
* Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right
* The stairs referred to above are made up of 3 sections: main stairs leading from hall to winder stairs, winder stairs leading to landing and two stairs leading from landing to main bedroom
* My scenario is based on the following taking precedence:
* Blood staining to carpet or lack of
* Casings
* Distance of shots
* Trajectories
* Wound tracks
It's good that you have created a reconstruction.
And also good that you have dismissed Bamber's preposturous claim that Neville phoned Chelmsford police. Only Sherlock has admitted that Neville couldn't have phoned Chelmsford police when he attempted a scenario. All other supporters refuse to discard this card.
There is no evidence that Bamber had left a rifle out. Or had gone to shoot rabbits. If there was a rifle left out there is a strong chance Neville or June had put it away hours earlier.
In the unlikely event there was a rifle in the kitchen, it's likely Sheila didn't pick it up straight away. If both Neville and Sheila were together out of bed, Neville would have put the rifle away before Sheila took it.
If Neville and Sheila were in the kitchen together and Sheila had somehow got the rifle, Neville would just take the rifle off her. Either through force, persuasion or both. He would know it was a rifle for shooting rabbits rather than a shot gun. And know Sheila had no experience with it.
The last thing Neville would do if Sheila had picked up a rifle is spend several minutes phoning Bamber. There is a thread with 40 reasons why he wouldn't.
If Neville was phoning Bamber, he wouldn't let Sheila go upstairs with the rifle. He would just put the phone down while waiting for Bamber to answer and stop or follow her. He can always phone Bamber upstairs or ask June for assistance.
With or without the silencer attached, Neville wouldn't hear the shots upstairs with his one free ear when phoning Bamber. However the fact that he only said 11 words to Bamber before the call ended suggests Neville did amazingly hear rifle shots. It seems he heard these shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone.
If Neville somehow heard Shots upstairs he was going upstairs to resolve the serious situation by confronting Sheila. He was still fully fit. He could have brought something up with him, to protect his upper body prior to smothering Sheila. Rather than just run upstairs bare footed in pyjamas.
If Sheila did start shooting June while Neville was downstairs, she had plenty of time to empty the rifle before Neville got upstairs. It only takes a second to fire a shot. If she was in such a crazy rage to fire 7 bullets there is no reason why she wouldn't keep firing until the rifle was empty. Sheila would not know how many bullets the rifle held.
I thought the concensus was June did not receive all 7 shots at the same time. Some were fired into her later while she was on the floor. This would have meant Sheila had more than 4 bullets to fire at Neville upstairs.
A sleeping June would not have the chance to start moving out of bed if receiving close range rapid rifle shots. She would naturally move across the bed further away from the rifle. It's been suggested she walked across the bedroom and back again. Was Sheila letting June do this while Neville was running upstairs ? Why wasn't the rifle emptied ?
After going upstairs when hearing shots it seems Neville didn't confront Sheila at all. He would have just charged her and would not be thinking about receiving a bullet himself as his priority was his family. However he did nothing except get close enough to Sheila to let himself get shot four times in the face and body. Before running straight back downstairs.
If Neville was going to retreat straight after running upstairs unprotected, he could have gone into another upstairs room before steeling himself to tackle Sheila. Running away back downstairs is not assisting June who he now knew had been shot multiple times.
The evidence shows there was a violent struggle in the kitchen. Neville's body and face injuries and bruises and the upturned furniture show this.
Neville stumbling around not able to put up a fight would not smash a ceiling light or scratch the aga. The only evidence I have read about Neville's first four shots are that he would not be able to engage in purposeful talk. The judge at trial believed after his first four shots Neville was able to and did 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Sheila would have been over powered or receive injuries.
In conclusion there would have to be well over 20 either extremely unlikely, or 1 in a million occurances to happen in quick succession. One may happen, but not 20.
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The telephone in the kitchen was discovered as below. There was no blood on the phone, the handset, the kitchen cabinet or on the floor below.
(http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/_/rsrc/1324562257381/telephones/Telephone..jpg)
Jeremy Bamber's testimony as to the claimed phone call from his father is not credible. Had there actually been something going on in the house there would have been background noises, dog barking, sound of shots, screaming, yelling etc etc...
His version of events might have been believable had the call not been cancelled or had the call been cancelled simply by the handset being replaced. For the sake of argument, had Nevill actually been in the kitchen prior to being shot and had he made a call to Jeremy for assistance and had he been alerted to something going on upstairs then he would have left the telephone handset on the worktop and left the line open. That didn't happen, Jeremy claims the line just went dead. This negated the need for him to invent a story as to what he heard next.
Jeremy's version is simply improbable and unrealistic.
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Something for you to juggle with, Holly... when it's raining on your Butlins break in Bognor!
Download this free program (only 17MB) and install it... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer)
Then download these two WHF FF Casings Animated .skb and .skp files to your desktop... https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
When you start the program, first maximise the window. On the Menu Bar, click File, then Open; navigate to those two downloaded files above and click on the WHF FF Casings Animated.skp file.
WHF First Floor should now come into view.
Using a mouse, you can the click on the various icons on the left to Orbit, Pan, and Zoom around the model. Better still if you have a 3 or 5 button scroll-wheel mouse, because the scrolling action will zoom in and out, and by pressing and holding down the scroll wheel you can also rotate the model. Holding down the Left Shift keyboard button at the same time as the scroll wheel will enable you to pan, and re-centre the model easily. You might struggle with a laptop touchpad though.
Click on the Scene 1-10 tab buttons in turn, to cycle through an animation. On the Menu Bar, you can also click on View, then Animation, then Play for a continuous animation until you press Stop.
If you get lost, click on the Zoom Extents button (a magnifying glass with three red arrows) on the left to return to a full screen model view.
Only a rough trial at this early stage, without details such as doors, windows, balusters, handrail, colours, etc... but should give you a better idea of the stair and bedroom layout than just a plan.
Thanks Myster. I'll have a go and see if I can also rope in some helping hands. 8((()*/
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That too is incorrect. As long as the handset was not on the cradle, the BT operator could listen in regardless of whether the last call had been cancelled or not.
As regards gunshots in the house, if Nevill was in the kitchen and could hear them then Jeremy could hear them too unless he was stone deaf.
I guess the BT op was unable to confirm one way or another whether the line was open or not?
I set up an experiment a while back in an attempt to ascertain how close the barking dog would need to be to the mouthpiece to be heard down the phone. I phoned my cordless landline with my mobile leaving both lines open. I then played a barking dog on my lappy. The closer the lappy was to the cordless phone the clearer she could be heard. When I moved lappy into the utility room about 12' away from cordless phone with the door half open I was unable to hear the dog barking on my mobile from the bottom of the garden.
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I guess the BT op was unable to confirm one way or another whether the line was open or not?
I set up an experiment a while back in an attempt to ascertain how close the barking dog would need to be to the mouthpiece to be heard down the phone. I phoned my cordless landline with my mobile leaving both lines open. I then played a barking dog on my lappy. The closer the lappy was to the cordless phone the clearer she could be heard. When I moved lappy into the utility room about 12' away from cordless phone with the door half open I was unable to hear the dog barking on my mobile from the bottom of the garden.
Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time. The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle. If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything. If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.
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Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time. The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle. If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything. If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.
Nevill Bamber wouldn't have telephoned Jeremy unless the situation had gone way beyond his control. Nevill was very capable of dealing with Sheila which makes the situation related by Jeremy Bamber sound all the more ridiculous.
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Thanks Myster. I'll have a go and see if I can also rope in some helping hands. 8((()*/
I've just logged on for a few minutes and noticed your post, so I uploaded two similar additional files, cleaned up without construction lines, etc. Maybe easier to read, so try to download those two instead...
https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
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It's good that you have created a reconstruction.
And also good that you have dismissed Bamber's preposturous claim that Neville phoned Chelmsford police. Only Sherlock has admitted that Neville couldn't have phoned Chelmsford police when he attempted a scenario. All other supporters refuse to discard this card.
There is no evidence that Bamber had left a rifle out. Or had gone to shoot rabbits. If there was a rifle left out there is a strong chance Neville or June had put it away hours earlier.
In the unlikely event there was a rifle in the kitchen, it's likely Sheila didn't pick it up straight away. If both Neville and Sheila were together out of bed, Neville would have put the rifle away before Sheila took it.
If Neville and Sheila were in the kitchen together and Sheila had somehow got the rifle, Neville would just take the rifle off her. Either through force, persuasion or both. He would know it was a rifle for shooting rabbits rather than a shot gun. And know Sheila had no experience with it.
The last thing Neville would do if Sheila had picked up a rifle is spend several minutes phoning Bamber. There is a thread with 40 reasons why he wouldn't.
If Neville was phoning Bamber, he wouldn't let Sheila go upstairs with the rifle. He would just put the phone down while waiting for Bamber to answer and stop or follow her. He can always phone Bamber upstairs or ask June for assistance.
With or without the silencer attached, Neville wouldn't hear the shots upstairs with his one free ear when phoning Bamber. However the fact that he only said 11 words to Bamber before the call ended suggests Neville did amazingly hear rifle shots. It seems he heard these shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone.
If Neville somehow heard Shots upstairs he was going upstairs to resolve the serious situation by confronting Sheila. He was still fully fit. He could have brought something up with him, to protect his upper body prior to smothering Sheila. Rather than just run upstairs bare footed in pyjamas.
If Sheila did start shooting June while Neville was downstairs, she had plenty of time to empty the rifle before Neville got upstairs. It only takes a second to fire a shot. If she was in such a crazy rage to fire 7 bullets there is no reason why she wouldn't keep firing until the rifle was empty. Sheila would not know how many bullets the rifle held.
I thought the concensus was June did not receive all 7 shots at the same time. Some were fired into her later while she was on the floor. This would have meant Sheila had more than 4 bullets to fire at Neville upstairs.
A sleeping June would not have the chance to start moving out of bed if receiving close range rapid rifle shots. She would naturally move across the bed further away from the rifle. It's been suggested she walked across the bedroom and back again. Was Sheila letting June do this while Neville was running upstairs ? Why wasn't the rifle emptied ?
After going upstairs when hearing shots it seems Neville didn't confront Sheila at all. He would have just charged her and would not be thinking about receiving a bullet himself as his priority was his family. However he did nothing except get close enough to Sheila to let himself get shot four times in the face and body. Before running straight back downstairs.
If Neville was going to retreat straight after running upstairs unprotected, he could have gone into another upstairs room before steeling himself to tackle Sheila. Running away back downstairs is not assisting June who he now knew had been shot multiple times.
The evidence shows there was a violent struggle in the kitchen. Neville's body and face injuries and bruises and the upturned furniture show this.
Neville stumbling around not able to put up a fight would not smash a ceiling light or scratch the aga. The only evidence I have read about Neville's first four shots are that he would not be able to engage in purposeful talk. The judge at trial believed after his first four shots Neville was able to and did 'put up a tremendous fight for life'. Sheila would have been over powered or receive injuries.
In conclusion there would have to be well over 20 either extremely unlikely, or 1 in a million occurances to happen in quick succession. One may happen, but not 20.
As I said in the above post, my reconstruction is based on the physical evidence from the scene of crime:
- Blood staining or abscene of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
Your post seems to be based on supposition.
My reconstruction can fit a guilty JB but it would not be as credible:
JB sneaks upstairs, with a full load of 10 in mag, 1 in breech and a pocket full of bullets. He shoots DC and NC a total of 8 times. Loads the rifle to max again (11). Enters the main bedroom via the box room ie NB's side of the bed. NB hears noises and leaves the bedroom to investigate prior to JB entering the main bedroom. JB shoots June a total of 7 x's casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43. NB appears at bedroom door and sustains the jaw and lip shots 2 x casings: DRH/3 and 4. He turns and is then shot on the main staircase casings: DRH/13 and 14. JB follows NB to kitchen etc. However what was SC doing? For SC to have been found where she was would then mean she would need to walk past the corpses of her twin sons or mother and not put up any resistance to JB. 8(8-)) Also would JB waste bullets and time on victims that could put up little or no threat to his plans? Would JB shoot June knowing he had already shot the twins and NB was on the loose in WHF? NB could potentially be arming himself. Return the phone to the cradle in the kitchen and phone out. Escape the building.
As far as I can see there isn't any pathological evidence showing any one shot would incapacitate June to the extent she was unable to walk round the bed and back to the door where she collapsed. Dr V said the two head shots would result in death quickly. Nothing about instantly or immobilise. Dr V said he was unable to make any comment about the order of shots to June.
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Back in 1985 the BT operator could listen in on any line at any time. The only thing which prevents them hearing anything is whether the handset was on or off the cradle. If the handset was off the cradle the operator can listen in to everything. If the handset is on the cradle the operator could still listen in but they wouldn't hear anything as the handset microphone would be deactivated.
I see so basically provided the handset is off the cradle the op can hear everything. Thanks.
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I've just logged on for a few minutes and noticed your post, so I uploaded two similar additional files, cleaned up without construction lines, etc. Maybe easier to read, so try to download those two instead...
https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
Thanks.
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The telephone in the kitchen was discovered as below. There was no blood on the phone, the handset, the kitchen cabinet or on the floor below.
(http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/_/rsrc/1324562257381/telephones/Telephone..jpg)
Jeremy Bamber's testimony as to the claimed phone call from his father is not credible. Had there actually been something going on in the house there would have been background noises, dog barking, sound of shots, screaming, yelling etc etc...
His version of events might have been believable had the call not been cancelled or had the call been cancelled simply by the handset being replaced. For the sake of argument, had Nevill actually been in the kitchen prior to being shot and had he made a call to Jeremy for assistance and had he been alerted to something going on upstairs then he would have left the telephone handset on the worktop and left the line open. That didn't happen, Jeremy claims the line just went dead. This negated the need for him to invent a story as to what he heard next.
Jeremy's version is simply improbable and unrealistic.
I'm sure I've seen an image of bloody fingerprints on the worktop?
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As far as I can see whether or not NB called JB is simply based on peoples' perceptions. The physical evidence of the SoC suggests NB did indeed call JB.
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As far as I can see whether or not NB called JB is simply based on peoples' perceptions. The physical evidence of the SoC suggests NB did indeed call JB.
No it doesn't... what evidence are you suggesting Holls?
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No it doesn't... what evidence are you suggesting Holls?
My reconstruction based on the physical evidence found at SoC:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7466.msg349198#msg349198
- Blood staining or absence of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
To some degree it is possible to create a reconstruction using the above physical evidence and build a logical sequence of events. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever NB was shot in the bedroom. The physical evidence suggests the perp shot NB whilst he was on the landing (jaw and lip) whilst the perp was stood in the main bedroom. This in turns suggests NB was on the phone to JB whilst SC run up the stairs and shot June in bed 7 x's in quick succession.
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In DC Hammersley's trial testimony DRH/1 is referred to by way of SoC photos:
"You see the bullet case between the slipper and the bible?"
I wasn't aware of any slipper near the bible? Maybe the slipper is situated in a soc photo I haven't seen? I think maybe Myster provided a photo showing a slipper under the bed?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199
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In DC Hammersley's trial testimony DRH/1 is referred to by way of SoC photos:
"You see the bullet case between the slipper and the bible?"
I wasn't aware of any slipper near the bible? Maybe the slipper is situated in a soc photo I haven't seen? I think maybe Myster provided a photo showing a slipper under the bed?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199)
That photo was in Sheila's bedroom with the slippers on the left of the unused bed. Caroline seemed to think they were Nevill's and they do look as if they are men's. But in a different photo of the main bedroom, I also noticed what appeared to be a slipper between Sheila's right arm and a chair with clothes on it. A very grainy image so difficult to be certain, but it must be if that's what was said in court. It's on my other hard drive I think, so you'll have to wait if you really want it.
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Holly... Have you tried downloading those two SketchUp files without having to sign in or join Dropbox yet?
If you haven't and don't want to join, I can upload them to a different file sharer where you only need to enter a captcha code.
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Holly... Have you tried downloading those two SketchUp files without having to sign in or join Dropbox yet?
If you haven't and don't want to join, I can upload them to a different file sharer where you only need to enter a captcha code.
"SketchUp files, Dropbox, captcha code"...my head is hurting very, very much 8)><(
I will have a go. I need something very user friendly! Whatever you suggest I will go with but I haven't had time yet. Earlier today I spoke with an organisation who do this sort of thing. I know exactly what I want and think I can get this over to someone but I'm not sure I'm the person to actually produce it! I know my limitations!
Either way I'm going to start off with the upstairs shots to June and NB only and I will then build on it. I'm not sure yet about some of the other aspects eg bible, position of perp and NB in kitchen etc. I will only produce things in animated format that I am very confident about and I can support by way of official documents etc.
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That photo was in Sheila's bedroom with the slippers on the left of the unused bed. Caroline seemed to think they were Nevill's and they do look as if they are men's. But in a different photo of the main bedroom, I also noticed what appeared to be a slipper between Sheila's right arm and a chair with clothes on it. A very grainy image so difficult to be certain, but it must be if that's what was said in court.It's on my other hard drive I think, so you'll have to wait if you really want it.
Said the bishop to the actress as she sat brushing her hair in anticipation of what might be...
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"SketchUp files, Dropbox, captcha code"...my head is hurting very, very much 8)><(
I will have a go. I need something very user friendly! Whatever you suggest I will go with but I haven't had time yet. Earlier today I spoke with an organisation who do this sort of thing. I know exactly what I want and think I can get this over to someone but I'm not sure I'm the person to actually produce it! I know my limitations!
Either way I'm going to start off with the upstairs shots to June and NB only and I will then build on it. I'm not sure yet about some of the other aspects eg bible, position of perp and NB in kitchen etc. I will only produce things in animated format that I am very confident about and I can support by way of official documents etc.
The program itself is user-friendly! For the other two files, a captcha code is only four letters/numbers you have to enter to make sure you're not a robot!
I've tried it out on a seven year old laptop with an onboard graphics card and it works well. The lines are not as smooth as they are on a PC with a more powerful graphics card, but nevertheless the drawing is readable.
You only have to get used to the controls - preferably with a three button scroll-wheel mouse, as I mentioned before, and moving and manipulating the model is done with just one finger clicking on the left mouse button and one on the left Shift key. The scroll-wheel will make it easier to zoom in and out as well.
The main program is just 17 Megabytes and takes only a minute to install, and then even less to find and open those two files from your desktop once downloaded. Here they are, just enter the captcha...
http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned (http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned)
http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned_1 (http://www.filedropper.com/whfffcasingsanimatedcleaned_1)
and the program... http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer)
It may even give you a better idea of what you want from this graphics company.
If you get stuck, you can always pm me.
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Said the bishop to the actress as she sat brushing her hair in anticipation of what might be...
@)(++(* I forgot that you enjoy a little inyourend oh!
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P.S. - You might have to enter the captcha two or three times before they allow you to download each file. Also make sure that you enter the letters in upper-case.
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As I said in the above post, my reconstruction is based on the physical evidence from the scene of crime:
- Blood staining or abscene of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
Your post seems to be based on supposition.
My reconstruction can fit a guilty JB but it would not be as credible:
JB sneaks upstairs, with a full load of 10 in mag, 1 in breech and a pocket full of bullets. He shoots DC and NC a total of 8 times. Loads the rifle to max again (11). Enters the main bedroom via the box room ie NB's side of the bed. NB hears noises and leaves the bedroom to investigate prior to JB entering the main bedroom. JB shoots June a total of 7 x's casings: DRH/6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43. NB appears at bedroom door and sustains the jaw and lip shots 2 x casings: DRH/3 and 4. He turns and is then shot on the main staircase casings: DRH/13 and 14. JB follows NB to kitchen etc. However what was SC doing? For SC to have been found where she was would then mean she would need to walk past the corpses of her twin sons or mother and not put up any resistance to JB. 8(8-)) Also would JB waste bullets and time on victims that could put up little or no threat to his plans? Would JB shoot June knowing he had already shot the twins and NB was on the loose in WHF? NB could potentially be arming himself. Return the phone to the cradle in the kitchen and phone out. Escape the building.
As far as I can see there isn't any pathological evidence showing any one shot would incapacitate June to the extent she was unable to walk round the bed and back to the door where she collapsed. Dr V said the two head shots would result in death quickly. Nothing about instantly or immobilise. Dr V said he was unable to make any comment about the order of shots to June.
I doubt June would have walked across the bedroom and back again, if she got all 7 shots in succession. But if she did it makes no difference to whether Bamber did it or not -
43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.
You didn't address any of my 20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurances in reply 92. That would have to have happened if Sheila committed the massacre. Just gave an unlikely scenario on how Bamber could have done it which can be pulled apart. Myself, CAL and the police have already submitted credible Bamber scenarios which match the crime scene.
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I doubt June would have walked across the bedroom and back again, if she got all 7 shots in succession. But if she did it makes no difference to whether Bamber did it or not -
43. Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.
You didn't address any of my 20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurances in reply 92. That would have to have happened if Sheila committed the massacre. Just gave an unlikely scenario on how Bamber could have done it which can be pulled apart. Myself, CAL and the police have already submitted credible Bamber scenarios which match the crime scene.
I guess it's easy to assume two gsw's to the head would prove instantly fatal but in the absence of any pathological evidence it's not clear.
Pathological evidence re the gsw's NB sustained to his head is clearer:
41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation.
The reason for this might simply be down to the fact others (police? JB's defense?) asked questions and the pathologist made a further report:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=205.msg2230#msg2230
This further report only covers NB's and SC's gsw's.
There are 7 casings June's side of the bed, either actually on the bed or on the carpet her side of the bed (8 casings if you believe 2 x DRH/7 exist. I don't). I don't believe any of the 7 casings in a cluster June's side of the bed pertain to gsw's sustained by NB. Given that June was shot in bed, got out, walked round the bed and collapsed by the door this leads me to believe she was shot 7 x's in quick succession in bed and as she was getting out. Despite the 7 gsw's she was still capable walking round the bed before she collapsed.
I can't see that your "20+ 'extremely unlikely' or '1 in a million' occurrences in reply 92" relate to the physical evidence of the soc:
- Blood staining or absence of
- Casings and exited bullets
- Distance of shots
- Pathological evidence
- Trajectories
- Wound tracks
The police and CAL's scenarios are fundamentally flawed in that they contradict pathological evidence ie that the two gsw's SC sustained happened within a few seconds of each other. The police and CAL claim JB shot SC once then went off to shoot others, running around, up and down the stairs, reloading etc.
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Author - Carol Ann Lee
Climbing the stairs, he steeled himself to kill the greatest threats first: his parents. A thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom, where his parents lay sleeping. He stood in the doorway, lifted the rifle, and fired.
How does she know a thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom? The cluster of casings June's side of the bed suggest the perp was stood at the foot of the bed.
The first two shots pierced the right side of June's chest, embedding themselves in the pillow. Another shot hit her in the arm and a third travelled up inside her leg, lodging in her knee. The terrible impact woke Nevill, who lurched out of bed. Jeremy turned the gun on his father, firing four shots that caught him on his left side: two bullets penetrated his forearm and shoulder, and two tore into his lip and jaw.
The pathologist said he was unable to say the order of gsw's June sustained. As far as I can see no bullet travelled up inside June's leg, lodging in her knee? The pathologist said there was an entry wound to the outer aspect of the knee and exit wound just above the knee: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=bel9kk2sf3h0e3seldpgbhi[Name removed]0&action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=688
Is CAL even aware that the gsw's NB sustained to his elbow (no forearm) and shoulder were from the back?
Jeremy left the room, heading down the first flight of stairs and through the corridor to the twins' bedroom, firing one shot into each slumbering child. With all ten cartridges expended, he made his way down to the kitchen to reload.
How does CAL know the perp only had 10 bullets? A bullet may have been loaded in the breach with 10 in the mag making a total of 11.
He managed to slot four cartridges into the magazine before his father stumbled into the room. A fierce fight for possession of the weapon ensued: they fell against the table, knocking it into the dresser and sending crockery to the floor. The rifle struck the overhead lampshade, shattering it. Jeremy used the gun to beat his father about the arms, head and face; Nevill's watch broke and skittered across the lino. The struggle came to a brutal end near the Aga, where the rifle damaged the underside of the mantel. As Nevill collapsed over a chair, landing at an impossible angle with his pyjamas tangling around his feet, Jeremy brought the gun down on his skull, then fired four shots into his head.
The pathologist describes NB putting up a "spirited defence". Given the nature of the injuries he sustained upstairs, including the complete loss of his left arm, how could he enter into a "fierce fight"?
The last produced a stovepipe jam, trapping the empty cartridge case in the ejection port. Jeremy removed the magazine and loaded it to its full capacity, then inserted it into the magazine well. Climbing the stairs again, he cleared the jammed cartridge by working the bolt. It fell out, rolling towards the skirting board on the first landing.
Where's the evidence of a stovepipe jam?
While father and son were fighting in the kitchen, June had managed to force herself up from bed. The commotion had also woken Sheila, who crossed the landing to her parents' bedroom, drowsy and confused. At the sight of her mother bleeding profusely as she steadied herself on the edge of the bed, Sheila rushed to the other side of the room, where the door to the box room was the quickest route to the twins. June staggered round the bed after her, but before she could reach Sheila, Jeremy returned with the gun.
Why would SC be "drowsy and confused"?
Sheila froze. June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head and finally between the eyes. June hit her shoulder against the door as she slumped to the floor.
The casings June's side of the bed suggest she was shot whilst in bed or getting out and not elsewhere.
Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat. With six cartridges left in the rifle, he headed back down the corridor where he fired two further shots into Nicholas and four into Daniel, emptying the magazine. The element of 'overkill' would help his story that Sheila, in the grip of psychosis, was the guilty party.
He then retraced his footsteps to the master bedroom, intending to finish setting the scene. To his shock he found his sister incapacitated but still alive. Quickly, he returned to the kitchen, loading a single cartridge into the magazine. Upstairs once more, he crouched down and took aim. The bullet went into Sheila's brain, killing her instantly.
The pathologist said the two gsw's SC sustained happened within a few seconds of each other. CAL has JB shooting SC once. Then going off to shoot the twins further to create an element of 'overkill' with JB returning to the main bedroom to 'set the scene' only to find SC still alive. According to CAL he then returns to the kitchen to load a single bullet into the mag before returning upstairs to kill SC: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
It's frightening that an author of true crime can put together a scenario which is completely at odds with the ballistic and pathological evidence. More so when I consider that she interviewed Malcolm Fletcher and Peter Vanezis and therefore had the opportunity to clarify any points etc.
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I thought you once gave it a good review?
https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301 (https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301)
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Police
"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.
Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.
Probably 10 shots fired in the first fusillade? Why not 11 with 1 in the breach?
It appears all June's gsw's were sustained whilst she was in bed or getting out.
The pathologist said SC's gsw's happened within a few seconds of each other http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732. The police have JB in the kitchen with NB and then returning to the bedroom to inflict the fatal shot to SC.
Why is it reasoanble to assume that a fourth casing from a gsw NB sustained in the kitchen was transferred to the landing/stairway? This was the casing PC Woodcock identified in his WS as PC Collins was mirroring up the stairs: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=249 The pathological evidence strongly suggests the casing found on the landing pertains to NB's elbow or shoulder gsw.
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I thought you once gave it a good review?
https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301 (https://www.waterstones.com/books/reviews/isbn/9781447285755#review-70301)
Yes I stand by my review. The book brings together all written testimony, interviews etc into an orderly narrative and that is it. My criticism is of her scenario.
I believe another book will be launched challenging the forensic evidence. And it will most definitely not be penned by Ms Goodhead! It's as much as I can do to pen a post!
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Police
"The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.
Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.
Probably 10 shots fired in the first fusillade? Why not 11 with 1 in the breach?
It appears all June's gsw's were sustained whilst she was in bed or getting out.
The pathologist said SC's gsw's happened within a few seconds of each other http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732). The police have JB in the kitchen with NB and then returning to the bedroom to inflict the fatal shot to SC.
Why is it reasoanble to assume that a fourth casing from a gsw NB sustained in the kitchen was transferred to the landing/stairway? This was the casing PC Woodcock identified in his WS as PC Collins was mirroring up the stairs: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=249 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=249) The pathological evidence strongly suggests the casing found on the landing pertains to NB's elbow or shoulder gsw.
DRH14 is just as likely to be the result of JB's shooting as SC's... if it wasn't a stovepipe jam.
I have difficulty with the shot to June's head above her right ear, and whether she was capable of even walking around the bed after such an injury that would cause to the brain. Why not stick with the official line that DRH13 and DRH14 were the result of the two second-phase shots to her head while she was lying in the doorway?
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DRH14 is just as likely to be the result of JB's shooting as SC's... if it wasn't a stovepipe jam.
I have difficulty with the shot to June's head above her right ear, and whether she was capable of even walking around the bed after such an injury that would cause to the brain. Why not stick with the official line that DRH13 and DRH14 were the result of the two second-phase shots to her head while she was lying in the doorway?
There seems to be three possible theories as to how DRH/14 came to be where it was found by soc officers:
- Discharge of firearm by perp
- Stovepipe jam
- Transferred under foot of perp or police officer
I am sure I recall reading an 'official' doc where Dr Vanezis stated he was unable to give an opinion about the order of June's gsw's. He was surely aware that June walked round the bed and was found by the door and would surely have said if one or more gsw's would have precluded this? Perhaps I will email and ask. I think any pathologist would be able to read the autopsy and provide an answer. All we know from the info currently available is that the two head shots would have "probably caused death quite rapidly"?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=690
DC Hammersley's trial testimony refers to "the plan" (third para down) which I assume is the casing layout diagram?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199
But it's not clear who produced this and when. I guess Malcolm Fletcher or a firearms officer?
As far as I'm aware Malcolm Fletcher didn't attend the SoC at any stage. Dr Vanezis visited and the prosecution did too and I think that's about it.
I can't see how it is possible for DRH/13 and 14 to relate to June's injuries? If you consider any of the wound tracks and distance of shots I can't see a position the perp could hold the rifle in which would result in any casings on the landing/transition strip?
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The casing layout diagram has all 4 exited bullets relating to June whereas 3 exited: neck, arm and knee.
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If NB was on the stairs when he sustained the graze shot, which skimmed his elbow and chest, did the bullet DRH/5 pass through the banisters onto the landing carpet depositing two small blood stains DRH/47 and DRH/49 and then come to rest in the main bedroom? As this bullet didn't actually enter I think it was probably carrying a fair bit of muzzle energy hence the potential to bounce around?
Any ideas about the arrows pointing at DRH/5 and DRH/9?
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Re post #121 maybe DRH/13 but definitely not DRH/14.
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Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight.
I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings. Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK?
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Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732)
It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight.
I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings. Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK?
It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.
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Re post #121 maybe DRH/13 but definitely not DRH/14.
If DRH14 was in the middle of the lower landing, JB might have accidentally kicked it to one side so that it ended up close by the skirting.
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It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.
Myster, the only scenario I ever entertained wasn't of a typically mad Sheila. In my scenario she was very quiet. Possibly lost too far in her own world to be reached, apparently calm, perhaps humming a tune or even talking quietly to herself. She would have been doing nothing with the gun, other than holding it. There may have been nothing -at that time- in her actions to alert Nevill to imminent danger. Her mood would, at some point, have had to change to give value to Nevill's alleged words to Jeremy. The only possibility -that I can see- is that he turned his back on her whilst he -allegedly- phoned Jeremy and in that moment she slipped upstairs. Nevill was then committed to waiting for Jeremy to answer. During his wait the shooting may have started. Unfortunately, when fully examined, my one time, theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
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If NB was on the stairs when he sustained the graze shot, which skimmed his elbow and chest, did the bullet DRH/5 pass through the banisters onto the landing carpet depositing two small blood stains DRH/47 and DRH/49 and then come to rest in the main bedroom? As this bullet didn't actually enter I think it was probably carrying a fair bit of muzzle energy hence the potential to bounce around?
Any ideas about the arrows pointing at DRH/5 and DRH/9?
DRH3 & DRH4 might have been accidentally kicked by June B from where the other casings landed, as she struggled to walk around the bed. Or even from somewhere else in the room!
No idea whether the blood on the upper landing was from NB, or from June B's head shot(s), because we don't know if it was tested.
When I first saw the arrow to DRH5 I thought that the bullet was found under the bed. But having seen the photo taken from the stairwell of the marker pointing to DRH5 hidden in some black clothing/cardigan/stockings, then it was obviously found there. It might have just landed, or again, had been kicked there accidentally... from inside the bedroom, not the landing!
DRH9 and DRH35(x2) also have arrow stubs which possibly merged higher up on the page. If the curved line of DRH5's arrow is extended from where it meets the bed up to the top of the page, then it appears to join the others. Perhaps there was some wording, such as "Bullets... etc." to distinguish them from casings, and the arrow stem(s) and words have later been erased to make the drawing clearer?
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It seems crazy to believe that Nevill would allow Sheila out of his sight to waste time on the phone knowing that she had hold of a loaded weapon ready to use and was on her way upstairs.
The difference between the two 'crazy' theories is that if NB called JB, SC hadn't actually fired any shots. Whereas MF has JB shooting June and NB, allowing NB to go off whilst JB shoots SC once upstairs before ending up in the kitchen with NB. If JB allowed NB to escape out of sight, albeit injured, whilst JB shot SC once NB could in the meantime arm himself; return the kitchen phone to the cradle and phone out; or flee the building to raise the alarm.
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If DRH14 was in the middle of the lower landing, JB might have accidentally kicked it to one side so that it ended up close by the skirting.
It's possible. It's also possible that DRH/14 relates to the shoulder or elbow gsw to NB which also happens to fit with the trajectories and blood stains found on the stairs.
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DRH3 & DRH4 might have been accidentally kicked by June B from where the other casings landed, as she struggled to walk around the bed. Or even from somewhere else in the room!
No idea whether the blood on the upper landing was from NB, or from June B's head shot(s), because we don't know if it was tested.
When I first saw the arrow to DRH5 I thought that the bullet was found under the bed. But having seen the photo taken from the stairwell of the marker pointing to DRH5 hidden in some black clothing/cardigan/stockings, then it was obviously found there. It might have just landed, or again, had been kicked there accidentally... from inside the bedroom, not the landing!
DRH9 and DRH35(x2) also have arrow stubs which possibly merged higher up on the page. If the curved line of DRH5's arrow is extended from where it meets the bed up to the top of the page, then it appears to join the others. Perhaps there was some wording, such as "Bullets... etc." to distinguish them from casings, and the arrow stem(s) and words have later been erased to make the drawing clearer?
It's possible the perp, June, police officers or even Crispy moved DRH/3 and 4, but again it's also possible they landed there as a result of the gsw's to NB's lip and jaw which also happen to fit with the trajectories.
It would help enormously to have clarification on the nature of June's injuries ie did one or more gsw's preclude her from walking round the bed. If not then I think it's likely she sustained all 7 in succession and the other 4 casings: DRH/3,4, 13 and 14 pertain to NB.
The two tiny blood spots foun on the landing were tested. See my table as follows. They are carpet fibres 95 and 96. As you will see compared with the victims' samples the results were contradictory and therefore inconclusive.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462
The location of exited bullets DRH/5 and 9 on the casing layout diagram correspond with DC Hammersley's trial testimony and soc photos referred to during his testimony. But the casing layout diagram has all 4 exited bullets pertaining to June whereas she had 3 exit wounds. I can see how an exited bullet from June's neck wound embedded in the pillow but I'm struggling to visualise the arm and knee shots.
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Myster, the only scenario I ever entertained wasn't of a typically mad Sheila. In my scenario she was very quiet. Possibly lost too far in her own world to be reached, apparently calm, perhaps humming a tune or even talking quietly to herself. She would have been doing nothing with the gun, other than holding it. There may have been nothing -at that time- in her actions to alert Nevill to imminent danger. Her mood would, at some point, have had to change to give value to Nevill's alleged words to Jeremy. The only possibility -that I can see- is that he turned his back on her whilst he -allegedly- phoned Jeremy and in that moment she slipped upstairs. Nevill was then committed to waiting for Jeremy to answer. During his wait the shooting may have started. Unfortunately, when fully examined, my one time, theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:
"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."
"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God. She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her. She was very hyper-active."
"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."
I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy". Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB.
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The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:
"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."
"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God. She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her. She was very hyper-active."
"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."
I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy". Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB.
Nope, that doesn't work for early August. Sheila was given three slow-release Haldol tranquiliser injections since CC's mother saw her 4 - 6 weeks before Easter (7th. April 1985). The first on leaving hospital - 29th March, the second - 2nd May and the third - 11th July. Primarily because she had difficulty popping pills regularly.
Her condition was controlled, over-controlled in fact, so much so that it was "flattening" her and making her lithargic, which is why her last dose was halved to 100mg. You only have to read what SC's bestie, Tora Tomkinson, thought about her weakness a week before the farm visit. Quiet on the journey from London the previous Sunday, subdued in the telephone chat with Junes's sister and according to Jeremy Bamber himself, saying very little in the conversation around the kitchen table on Wednesday night. Add depression into the mix and there is no way Sheila would have summoned up the strength and vindictivness to do what you believe she did. More likely that she was hitting the hay rather than chatting with her dad in the kitchen at 3:15am too.
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The image I have of SC in the kitchen with NB is based on CC's mother's WS:
"She [SC] went into a torrent of words saying she was hearing voices from God, and more words to this effect."
"When I arrived Sheila said that she was hearing voices, sometimes from God. She said that she had to put the world to right, and spoke rapidly about many things that were troubling her. She was very hyper-active."
"The Doctor wanted to give Sheila an injection but she wouldn't allow it so instead he prescribed pills."
I see SC in possession of the gun talking along the lines of the above which NB may have referred to as "crazy". Then in the same way that SC wouldn't allow the Dr to inject her I see her being unwilling to hand over the rifle to NB.
IF (and it's a ridiculous if) Sheila was downstairs holding a loaded gun, and looking a bit mental, when would Ralph have let her get on with it, and waste valuable moments calling a knackered Jeremy with the vague hope that he'd pick up?
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Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, he returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
Even MF's reconstruction is at odds with the pathological evidence ie the two GSW's SC sustained happened within seconds: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732
It seems to me crazy to suggest JB would allow NB out of his sight.
I stand by what I've said for a long time: lack of joined up thinking from the relevant experts and didn't have enough experience to deal with a SoC involving multiple shootings. Other than Hungerford, Dunblane and Lake District (Derrick Bird) I can't think of any other multiple shootings in UK?
I agree Bamber would not allow Neville downstairs alone. It would give Neville the chance to either get outside, arm himself or call 999.
The kitchen fight suggests an instant fight straight after both arrived in the kitchen simultaneously. Neville was not armed or near an exit. We also both agree he never telephoned the police.
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Nope, that doesn't work for early August. Sheila was given three slow-release Haldol tranquiliser injections since CC's mother saw her 4 - 6 weeks before Easter (7th. April 1985). The first on leaving hospital - 29th March, the second - 2nd May and the third - 11th July. Primarily because she had difficulty popping pills regularly.
Her condition was controlled, over-controlled in fact, so much so that it was "flattening" her and making her lithargic, which is why her last dose was halved to 100mg. You only have to read what SC's bestie, Tora Tomkinson, thought about her weakness a week before the farm visit. Quiet on the journey from London the previous Sunday, subdued in the telephone chat with Junes's sister and according to Jeremy Bamber himself, saying very little in the conversation around the kitchen table on Wednesday night. Add depression into the mix and there is no way Sheila would have summoned up the strength and vindictivness to do what you believe she did. More likely that she was hitting the hay rather than chatting with her dad in the kitchen at 3:15am too.
My understanding is that medication helps stabilise sufferers. I don't think it's possible to eradicate schizophrenia and paranoia by medication? If it was I don't understand the following witness statements. SC was being injected fortnightly by her GP and as far as I'm aware there's no record of her missing any appointments? If SC was responsible I don't think vindictiveness comes into it.
Dr Ferguson:
"....inferring a poor outlook".
"Sheila's illness had a tendency to relapse without external influences.
"In hindsight I believe that SC would have relapsed into a state of acute psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid possibly involving her mother".
CC:
"Whilst Sheila was in hospital I managed to see Dr Ferguson who informed me that Sheila was psychotic and had schizophrenia. He informed me that she would always have this illness at more frequent intervals".
I should also point out that Dr Ferguson made it clear in his WS and to CC (as per his WS) and no doubt to the Bambers that in his opinion SC was not a danger to herself or others.
With regard to whether SC was over sedated I haven't seen her medical records about her concerns that her dose was too high to know why she thought this eg physical, mental or both. Is it possible to determine by the level measured in a person's system whether or not they are over sedated to the extent it is having an adverse affect mentally or physically or both? The autopsy and toxicology tests show the level of prescribed drugs in her system:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
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IF (and it's a ridiculous if) Sheila was downstairs holding a loaded gun, and looking a bit mental, when would Ralph have let her get on with it, and waste valuable moments calling a knackered Jeremy with the vague hope that he'd pick up?
There's no problem whatsoever with criticising any material here or elsewhere providing it doesn't:
- break any UKJF rules
- contain any personally identifiable information (pii) over and above that which individuals choose to make public
- amount to online bullying
- break any laws
The posts in question contained pii about an individual who chooses to use an online user name and were therefore removed.
I share your views puglove about some of the comments made elsewhere about June. Eg suggesting June had a direct hand in any of the murders is plainly absurd. Unfortunately that's what comes from a very poorly managed forum and posters who have an equally poor understanding of the facts of the case. I can only attempt to manage what goes on here as fairly as possible and try and find the right balance between free speech and respect for the law which has found JB guilty, the victims, prosecution witnesses, the police and others involved.
I'm always receptive to feedback on the forum or via pm. 8((()*/
I can see how some, many, and probably the jury were/are unable to envisage NB phoning JB and/or allowing SC to slope off with a firearm etc and yet the soc seems to suggest this is what happened by way of blood staining to the carpets (and lack of), casings, trajectories etc.
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I agree Bamber would not allow Neville downstairs alone. It would give Neville the chance to either get outside, arm himself or call 999.
The kitchen fight suggests an instant fight straight after both arrived in the kitchen simultaneously. Neville was not armed or near an exit. We also both agree he never telephoned the police.
Yes if JB was responsible he would be unaware NB's lip and jaw shots resulted in him being unable to engage in purposeful talk so would want to prevent NB from reaching and potentially using the kitchen phone at all costs.
If "Sheila's going crazy she's got the gun" this could have resulted in the rifle being swung around and damaging the lampshade etc before any shots were fired. Otherwise yes I believe the perp and NB arrived in the kitchen simultaneously and that's when crockery and the lampshade were broken and furniture moved etc.
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I see you're leading them all astray on IA with your (http://i.imgur.com/76c1k1Y.gif)conspiracy theories.
It was Sheila's blood in the moderator, Holls. Bamber wiped the rest off the outside using some washing-up liquid (that's why it was sticky) but not thoroughly enough (hence the speck in the opening), and completely ignored the inside because he thought no-one would disassemble and examine it that closely, or even discover it in the gun cupboard... until he'd got his hands on the keys to WHF when he could give it a more thorough going over.
He probably thought that if he took it home or ditched it, the police would start asking tricky questions about where it had disappeared to, when they discovered one existed and had been bought by NB to fit on the rifle.
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I see you're leading them all astray on IA with your (http://i.imgur.com/76c1k1Y.gif)conspiracy theories.
It was Sheila's blood in the moderator, Holls. Bamber wiped the rest off the outside using some washing-up liquid (that's why it was sticky) but not thoroughly enough (hence the speck in the opening), and completely ignored the inside because he thought no-one would disassemble and examine it that closely, or even discover it in the gun cupboard... until he'd got his hands on the keys to WHF when he could give it a more thorough going over.
He probably thought that if he took it home or ditched it, the police would start asking tricky questions about where it had disappeared to, when they discovered one existed and had been bought by NB to fit on the rifle.
Washing-up liquid? That's new to me. Was it Fairy by any chance? If JB was unsure about how he left things why did he allow the relatives to take over? He allowed the police to hand over the keys to the rellies and for them to have free rein.
It's not possible to confirm one way or another whether the blood flake supposedly found in the silencer originated from SC's blood. It's only possible to say it matched SC's blood by way of the antigen, 1 x protein and 2 enzymes. Statistically 5.43 members of this forum will share those groupings. Even if the blood supposedly found in the silencer matched SC's it wouldn't prove how it came to be there.
Does any photographic evidence exist showing the inside of the silencer with blood staining? I haven't even seen a diagram of blood staining to the inside.
I think my posts on IA are impartial and factual?! Why don't you call by? I'm sure AL would be pleased to see you! It's interesting to exchange views with others from outside UK. Especially US citizens who have a different take on firearms.
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Washing-up liquid? That's new to me. Was it Fairy by any chance? If JB was unsure about how he left things why did he allow the relatives to take over? He allowed the police to hand over the keys to the rellies and for them to have free rein.
It's not possible to confirm one way or another whether the blood flake supposedly found in the silencer originated from SC's blood. It's only possible to say it matched SC's blood by way of the antigen, 1 x protein and 2 enzymes. Statistically 5.43 members of this forum will share those groupings. Even if the blood supposedly found in the silencer matched SC's it wouldn't prove how it came to be there.
Does any photographic evidence exist showing the inside of the silencer with blood staining? I haven't even seen a diagram of blood staining to the inside.
I think my posts on IA are impartial and factual?! Why don't you call by? I'm sure AL would be pleased to see you! It's interesting to exchange views with others from outside UK. Especially US citizens who have a different take on firearms.
Well it was sticky with something and moderators are usually dry, unless lightly oiled to stop rust. Maybe it was seized on the rifle and hard to undo, so JB thought washing-up liquid as the nearest thing to hand would release it.
He pretended that he was scared to go back in, until AE held his hand for a while... after which he was back to his normal self; questioning where his dad's wallet and money had gone, giving himself a pay rise and holidaying on the farm account.
There'll be many, many photos and drawings which we haven't seen, nor are ever likely to.
I've not got the time to contribute to IA and it's difficult finding enough to dip in here these days, going over the case endlessly. Much of the same has already been discussed there anyway, bar esoteric and irrelevant Bayesian statistics. You're fighting for his release and therefore keen to influence others from wherever - I'm content that the police got the right man and the jury agreed.
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I think it is absurd to suggest that June got up and walked around the master bedroom after being initially shot in bed, there's certainly no evidence to support such a contention. It is far more likely she got up after being shot in bed and collapsed on the floor only to be shot again multiple times when her assailant realised she wasnt' dead. Jeremy Bamber couldn't take the risk of leaving anyone alive in case they identified him to the police, thus the overkill nature of the murders.
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I think it is absurd to suggest that June got up and walked around the master bedroom after being initially shot in bed, there's certainly no evidence to support such a contention. It is far more likely she got up after being shot in bed and collapsed on the floor only to be shot again multiple times when her assailant realised she wasnt' dead. Jeremy Bamber couldn't take the risk of leaving anyone alive in case they identified him to the police, thus the overkill nature of the murders.
good point john.was the blood found leading to sheilas body and around it tested
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IIRC, the blood spots on carpet samples 10 & 11 were identified as June's, so she must have walked around the end of the bed to Nevill's side and back again for a short period before collapsing in the doorway. Also evidenced by the large amount of staining from blood which ran down the front of her nightdress.
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IIRC, the blood spots on carpet samples 10 & 11 were identified as June's, so she must have walked around the end of the bed to Nevill's side and back again for a short period before collapsing in the doorway. Also evidenced by the large amount of staining from blood which ran down the front of her nightdress.
was there any of neville's blood in that room myster
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was there any of neville's blood in that room myster
None that I'm aware of, but the police burned the carpet and some of the bedding before any more stains could be analyzed. The bedroom carpet was peppered with blood spots, so it was a missed opportunity to pinpoint exactly where Nevill was shot.
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None that I'm aware of, but the police burned the carpet and some of the bedding before any more stains could be analyzed. The bedroom carpet was peppered with blood spots, so it was a missed opportunity to pinpoint exactly where Nevill was shot.
yes i agree.there was loads of blood there and we still arent sure where neville received his first 4 shots
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yes i agree.there was loads of blood there and we still arent sure where neville received his first 4 shots
The spent casings tell us where the gun was aimed- at Nevill's side of the bed. He had to be either lying down or sitting on his side of the bed when he suffered at least 3 of those 4 wounds based on the trajectory/location of the wounds. He had his left profile to the killer for all 4 and for at least 3 he was at a lower elevation than the killer. The killer was standing while he was sitting/lying down or the killer was standing on the chair. Since the killer standing on the chair is unlikely that means in all likelihood Nevill was sitting/lying down. The 4th shot potentially could have been delivered while he was standing so he might have gotten up by the time but still had his left profile to the killer.
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None that I'm aware of, but the police burned the carpet and some of the bedding before any more stains could be analyzed. The bedroom carpet was peppered with blood spots, so it was a missed opportunity to pinpoint exactly where Nevill was shot.
That is correct they didn't test the bedding on his side of the bed or all the blood in the carpet. So it is a misnomer when people say his blood was not in the room proving that would have required testing all the blood. All that can be said is that the small amount of blood they tested wasn't his.
What is pretty clear is that Jeremy was around the foot of the bed and fired at least 4 shots into June and 3 into Nevill before they even had time to stand up. He fired 2 more into June's chest and another that merely grazed Nevill either as they were sitting, in the process of getting up or after they got up.
At that point his gun was empty. Here are the plausible scenarios of what occurred after such:
1) Jeremy and Nevill then began to fight on Nevill's side of the bed and June walked around to that side of the bed went to help Nevill confront him. Jeremy then fled the room to go get more ammo with his parents pursuing him and while Nevill was able to reach the kitchen and confront him there June collapsed before she made it out the door because her injuries were too severe.
2) Jeremy and Nevill then began to fight on Nevill's side of the bed and June walked around to that side of the bed went to help Nevill confront him. Jeremy then fled the room to go get more ammo with his parents pursuing him. He knocked his mother to the floor and got out the door. Nevill was able to reach the kitchen and confront him but June remained where she had been knocked down because her bullet injuries were too severe.
3) Jeremy and Nevill then began to fight on Nevill's side of the bed and June walked around to that side of the bed went to help Nevill confront him. They moved towards the door. Nevill eventually fled the room to go try to call for help or to get a weapon. He knocked his mother to the floor and pursued Nevill who somehow was able to reach the kitchen before Jeremy caught up. His mother remained on the floor because her injuries were too severe.
4) Nevill somehow ran out of the room past Jeremy. Jeremy pursued but did not catch up with Nevill until he was in the kitchen. After they left June walked around to Nevill's side of the bed to try to call for help but found the phone missing so turned around and headed for the door but collapsed because of her severe injuries.
5) Nevill somehow ran out of the room past Jeremy. Jeremy pursued but did not catch up with Nevill until he was in the kitchen. After they left June was in a daze and mindlessly walked around to Nevill's side of the bed and back to her own and collapsed because of her severe injuries.
6) Jeremy fled the room after the gun was empty with Nevill in pursuit. While they were gone June walked around to Nevill's side of the bed to try to use the phone to call for help. Finding it missing she turned and headed for the door but collapsed before she could make it to the door because of her severe injuries.
7) Jeremy decided to flee the room after the gun was empty and beat June in order to get out. While Nevill pursued June got up and went to Nevill's side to try to use the phone to call for help but found the phone missing so turned around and went towards the door but collapsed of her severe injuries before making it..
8) Jeremy decided to flee the room after the gun was empty, June went to the other side to tend to Nevill who was not fully upright yet. Nevill decided to go after Jeremy and June wound up walking towards the door but collapsed because of her severe injuries.
I personally doubt that Jeremy would have let Nevill get by him to escape. I further doubt that Nevill would have made it to the kitchen before Jeremy could catch up to him if he had escaped. I also doubt Nevill would have left June there with Jeremy. I think it is most likely that Jeremy is the one who fled to get more ammo with Nevill in pursuit to try to stop him and that he caught up with Jeremy in the kitchen.
I think it is somewhat more likely his parents tried to fight him than that he just ran away but he could have simply ran away to get more ammo before they had the ability to confront him. It is possible that the black eye his mother suffered was received during the course of trying to confront him.
What seems clear is that June walked to Nevill's side of the bed while in a mindless daze, to try to use the phone to call for help, to try to tend to Nevill or did so to confront the killer. We will never no which is the case no matter how hard we wonder.