UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on August 08, 2016, 02:21:16 AM
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As a follow on from another thread it has been suggested that Smithman might have been on his way to the medical centre with a child in his arms. On finding the clinic closed he passed the Smiths and went down the steps from whence they had just emerged.
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But the Medical Center would have been closed, or had Smithman contacted the after hours emergency service?
Where can he go next for help if the LuzDoc is closed?
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But the Medical Center would have been closed, or had Smithman contacted the after hours emergency service?
Where can he go next for help if the LuzDoc is closed?
If you hit and killed a child in the dark you have several choices. Blind panic has a tendency to take over and especially if you are driving illegally.
Would you go about shouting or lift the child and carry them off?
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If you hit and killed a child in the dark you have several choices. Blind panic has a tendency to take over and especially if you are driving illegally.
Would you go about shouting or lift the child and carry them off?
I've never been in that situation thankfully I'm not sure how I'd react. But I see Smithman as a person seeking help for Madeleine, her difficulties were caused by someone some situation prior to his intervention. He is an more ambulance rather than a car knocking the kid down.
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I've never been in that situation thankfully I'm not sure how I'd react. But I see Smithman as a person seeking help for Madeleine, her difficulties were caused by someone some situation prior to his intervention. He is an more ambulance rather than a car knocking the kid down.
The fact that Smithman never acknowledged Mrs Smith's greeting in any way was in itself odd if not suspicious.
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The fact that Smithman never acknowledged Mrs Smith's greeting in any way was in itself odd if not suspicious.
If that "fact" was true Mrs Smith should have had no trouble recollecting the encounter the following day when all hell broke loose in Luz.
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If that "fact" was true Mrs Smith should have had no trouble recollecting the encounter the following day when all hell broke loose in Luz.
It's all very odd. Granted the Smiths would have been preoccupied by their son's departure that night and the following day but they must have been aware later of the furore going on in the village. Why they didn't report their sighting of the man sooner is a mystery.
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The fact that Smithman never acknowledged Mrs Smith's greeting in any way was in itself odd if not suspicious.
Not if you are in a desperate hurry to get medical attention for the child.
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Strangely, the LuzDoc medical centre is right on the very corner where the Smith family encountered Smithman. Could it be that when he realised it was closed he walked on and down the steps?
Does anyone know if they occupied the same office in 2007?
(http://luzportugal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/emergency-clinic-luzdoc-praia-da-luz-880x440.jpg)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0861823,-8.7318218,3a,60y,302.56h,90.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqAaf0j2zqhtDaHJMowYIEA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Strangely, the LuzDoc medical centre is right on the very corner where the Smith family encountered Smithman. Could it be that when he realised that it was closed he walked on?
Does anyone know if they occupied the same office in 2007?
(http://luzportugal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/emergency-clinic-luzdoc-praia-da-luz-880x440.jpg)
Well, Smithman didn't try any doors or look in the window..............
LuzDoc was there in 2007, offering a 24 hour service.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P5/05_VOLUME_Va_Page_1376.jpg
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Well, Smithman didn't try any doors or look in the window..............
LuzDoc was there in 2007, offering a 24 hour service.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P5/05_VOLUME_Va_Page_1376.jpg
Thanks Misty, that confirms their presence at 12 Rua 25 de Abril. As regards the 24 hour service though, was that by appointment?
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Thanks Misty, that confirms their presence at 12 Rua 25 de Abril. As regards the 24 hour service though, was that by appointment?
http://www.luzdoc.com/
ASSISTANCE & MEDICAL - 24 HOURS
Assistance & Medical - 24Hours
Emergency
This is a service that covers the times of the day and night when there are no booked general medicine consultations. A doctor is always available at Luzdoc during weekday afternoons, bank holidays, Saturdays and Sundays and on call every night.
Domiciles
There is a 24 hour service, every day of the year, where a general practitioner is available to visit and, if possible, treat a client in their home when required.
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http://www.luzdoc.com/
ASSISTANCE & MEDICAL - 24 HOURS
Assistance & Medical - 24Hours
Emergency
This is a service that covers the times of the day and night when there are no booked general medicine consultations. A doctor is always available at Luzdoc during weekday afternoons, bank holidays, Saturdays and Sundays and on call every night.
Domiciles
There is a 24 hour service, every day of the year, where a general practitioner is available to visit and, if possible, treat a client in their home when required.
Thank you, that confirms a doctor was on call. It could be that Smithman made for the medical centre, he certainly passed Peter Smith on the side of the road nearest LuzDoc and on seeing it was closed walked on.
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Thank you, that confirms a doctor was on call. It could be that Smithman made for the medical centre, he certainly passed Peter Smith on the side of the road nearest LuzDoc and on seeing it was closed walked on.
Where is the main front door, John? Did Smithman walk towards it?
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http://www.luzdoc.com/
ASSISTANCE & MEDICAL - 24 HOURS
Assistance & Medical - 24Hours
Emergency
This is a service that covers the times of the day and night when there are no booked general medicine consultations. A doctor is always available at Luzdoc during weekday afternoons, bank holidays, Saturdays and Sundays and on call every night.
Domiciles
There is a 24 hour service, every day of the year, where a general practitioner is available to visit and, if possible, treat a client in their home when required.
To make a call you have to know the name and the number and have access to a phone. Then the phone has to be answered. Then there is the delay to come, where did the doctor have to come from?
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To make a call you have to know the name and the number and have access to a phone. Then the phone has to be answered. Then there is the delay to come, where did the doctor have to come from?
How do you suppose Smithman knew about LuzDoc & where it was?
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So he would have had a record of the phone number from the treatment receipt for insurance purposes? LuzDoc is a private International medical service.
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So he would have had a record of the phone number from the treatment receipt for insurance purposes? LuzDoc is a private International medical service.
He may have but did he have that with him? I get receipts and they get lost within the hour.
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He may have but did he have that with him? I get receipts and they get lost within the hour.
Had he been to LuzDoc before, Smithman would not have walked in the opposite direction of the front door.
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Had he been to LuzDoc before, Smithman would not have walked in the opposite direction of the front door.
It might have been his wife who went there before
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Where to start on this one?
Smithman was in the middle of the road, according to Peter Smith, as they passed.
And according to Martin Smith, who was standing on the pavement right by LuzDoc, Smithman was still walking in the middle of the road. I.e. he was not checking LuzDoc.
Notice on the evidence turned up earlier in the thread, LuzDoc's 24hr emergency number was 917811988. That's a mobile number (which makes sense) and the same evidence shows the LuzDoc landline as 282whatever.
Depending on which flavour of Smithman you are sucking, you have to solve...
1 How Smithman knew LuzDoc was there.
2 Why Smithman thought LuzDoc operated 24hrs on-site.
3 Why Smithman didn't stay where he was, ring the LuzDoc emergency number, and get the doctor to come to him.
4 Why Smithman didn't ring 112 and get an ambulance to the hospital in Lagos or Portimão. Or get someone to ring for him.
5 If the issue was that LuzDoc was closed, why did Smithman not simply turn around and head back to base? Why head onwards?
The only relevance of LuzDoc is the sign above the front door that adds a small amount of fluorescent light into the scene as viewed by Peter, Martin and Aoife.
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Pegasus said he then went beyond DocLuz into the path toward a row of what looks like flats
TV Das Escardinhas
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Where to start on this one?
Smithman was in the middle of the road, according to Peter Smith, as they passed.
And according to Martin Smith, who was standing on the pavement right by LuzDoc, Smithman was still walking in the middle of the road. I.e. he was not checking LuzDoc.
Notice on the evidence turned up earlier in the thread, LuzDoc's 24hr emergency number was 917811988. That's a mobile number (which makes sense) and the same evidence shows the LuzDoc landline as 282whatever.
Depending on which flavour of Smithman you are sucking, you have to solve...
1 How Smithman knew LuzDoc was there.
2 Why Smithman thought LuzDoc operated 24hrs on-site.
3 Why Smithman didn't stay where he was, ring the LuzDoc emergency number, and get the doctor to come to him.
4 Why Smithman didn't ring 112 and get an ambulance to the hospital in Lagos or Portimão. Or get someone to ring for him.
5 If the issue was that LuzDoc was closed, why did Smithman not simply turn around and head back to base? Why head onwards?
The only relevance of LuzDoc is the sign above the front door that adds a small amount of fluorescent light into the scene as viewed by Peter, Martin and Aoife.
1-4 can be answered by he was local and lived near enough to dash there instead of waiting for an ambulance
5 is bit more difficult to answer unless there was a pharmacy or someone he thought could help
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1-4 can be answered by he was local and lived near enough to dash there instead of waiting for an ambulance
5 is bit more difficult to answer unless there was a pharmacy or someone he thought could help
5 is my pick.
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An innocent father with his own daughter - that's my pick.
It was obvious from the start that JTman was an innocent father with his own daughter.
I'm predicting the same about Smithman.
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To make a call you have to know the name and the number and have access to a phone. Then the phone has to be answered. Then there is the delay to come, where did the doctor have to come from?
I would hazard a guess that any doctor under contract to a 24-hour clinic would be available locally.
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Where is the main front door, John? Did Smithman walk towards it?
He didn't have to as he would have seen through the side windows and the disabled access door that the office was closed.
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Pegasus said he then went beyond DocLuz into the path toward a row of what looks like flats
TV Das Escardinhas
Yes, due south down the steps the Smiths had just come up.
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Yes, due south down the steps the Smiths had just come up.
Who lived in that area? Who was staying in that area?
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If you hit and killed a child in the dark you have several choices. Blind panic has a tendency to take over and especially if you are driving illegally.
Would you go about shouting or lift the child and carry them off?
the idea of hitting and killing a child is totally ridiculous
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the idea of hitting and killing a child is totally ridiculous
Not totally, for the emergency requiring Smithman to go to the DocLuz clinic could be justified by saying his daughter was hit by a car on the main road coming in to PDL. There was that patch of blood further up the road but it was mixed blood and mostly male human blood. So the simulation of the vehicle hit and run accident did not really work.
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Not totally, for the emergency requiring Smithman to go to the DocLuz clinic could be justified by saying his daughter was hit by a car on the main road coming in to PDL. There was that patch of blood further up the road but it was mixed blood and mostly male human blood. So the simulation of the vehicle hit and run accident did not really work.
the difference between hit by a car and a person is quite different
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A most significant thread IMO for the sightings match the actual places perfectly.
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A most significant thread IMO for the sightings match the actual places perfectly.
A local would have known two things;
Luzdoc is private, so cash on treatment.
It closes at 8pm.
A visitor looking up information on medical help would have discovered the above and also the out of hours number to ring.
An ambulance would have been the obviously quicker and cheaper option for both.
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A local would have known two things;
Luzdoc is private, so cash on treatment.
It closes at 8pm.
A visitor looking up information on medical help would have discovered the above and also the out of hours number to ring.
An ambulance would have been the obviously quicker and cheaper option for both.
So smithman less likely to be a local then.
A person already closeby e.g. Ocean Club could rush down to Doc Luz rather than back track and climb 5 floors to his apartment on the off-chance Doc Luz was open. If he finds Doc Luz closed then goes to somewhere else to ring Doc Luz. I'd like to see the records for that night to see if Doc Luz had any call outs (but if they are like NZ probably done cash and no records)
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It could have played out something like this.
Madeleine exits apartment after being freaked out by an intruder attempting to get in through the bedroom window, runs out into street and is knocked down by a passing motorist. In the gloom and with nobody about and seeing that the child is lifeless the driver panicks, lifts the child, puts her in his vehicle and drives off to consider his next move. Maybe he doesn't have a licence, maybe he is underage, intoxicated, has no insurance, a banned driver, out on the rob, the possibilities are endless.
After a delay his conscience gets the better of him, he then decides to take Madeleine for treatment on the off chance that the medical centre is open so returns to the town and drives down to where he can park. He then carries the child down to the medical centre passing the first of the Smiths before realising it is closed. Terrified he walks on so as not to attract undue attention, he passes the rest of the Smith family and goes down the steps to get out of the way only to return the way he came and return to his vehicle. Realising the girl really is deceased he reviews his options and drives off.
And so the Madeleine McCann mystery is born.
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It could have played out something like this.
Madeleine exits apartment after being freaked out by an intruder attempting to get in through the bedroom window, runs out into street and is knocked down by a passing motorist. In the gloom and with nobody about and seeing that the child is lifeless the driver panicks, lifts the child, puts her in his vehicle and drives off to consider his next move. Maybe he doesn't have a licence, maybe he is underage, intoxicated, has no insurance, a banned driver, out on the rob, the possibilities are endless.
After a delay his conscience gets the better of him, he then decides to take Madeleine for treatment on the off chance that the medical centre is open so returns to the town and drives down to where he can park. He then carries the child down to the medical centre passing the first of the Smiths before realising it is closed. Terrified he walks on so as not to attract undue attention, he passes the rest of the Smith family and goes down the steps to get out of the way only to return the way he came and return to his vehicle. Realising the girl really is deceased he reviews his options and drives off.
And so the Madeleine McCann mystery is born.
Some parts of that sound possible but I'd think her body would be dumped soon afterward for the driver wouldn't want to be stopped with the body on board, so she would have been found near the side of the road some where next day (4th).
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... intruder attempting to get in through the bedroom window ...
That much of your scenario makes sense John.
Attempted entry via an easily accessible window is precedented in tens of thousands of solved cases.
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... exits apartment ...
This 2nd part of your scenario appears at first to makes sense John. The problem with it is this: In other other cases of home-alone child disturbed by attempted entry, the child invariably stays, surprisingly, within the property, and does not go to the street.
Unless you can provide a proven example of another case where it happened, your conjecture that the response would be to leave the property would appear to be unprecedented in case history.
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Some parts of that sound possible but I'd think her body would be dumped soon afterward for the driver wouldn't want to be stopped with the body on board, so she would have been found near the side of the road some where next day (4th).
I don't agree, finding a body could result in him being found, best to hide it where nobody could possibly find it and we know that the terrain around that area lends itself perfectly to that possibility. Even Kate McCann has recently revealed that she too believes that Madeleine can be found not too far from where she was taken.
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@John if child knew where parents were and went to get them, it would involve no road-crossing. Scenario you posted works only if there is no knowledge of where parents are, that is the only way to get road-crossing.
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@John if child knew where parents were and went to get them, it would involve no road-crossing. Scenario you posted works only if there is no knowledge of where parents are, that is the only way to get road-crossing.
Always assuming the child knew where she was going. In sheer terror she could very well have been distracted and crossed the road remembering that that was the route she took to the club every morning. Remember too that the Portuguese tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent as far as the lamp post on the opposite side of the road to the entrance to mini reception.
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Always assuming the child knew where she was going. In sheer terror she could very well have been distracted and crossed the road remembering that that was the route she took to the club every morning. Remember too that the Portuguese tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent as far as the lamp post on the opposite side of the road to the entrance to mini reception.
Sheer terror does not involve closing doors & gates behind you as you flee.
All you need is James Nesbitt & a fox to make your scenario credible.
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Sheer terror does not involve closing doors & gates behind you as you flee.
All you need is James Nesbitt & a fox to make your scenario credible.
She could slip out a patio door very easily and a child gate was no impediment to a nearly 4-year-old. Alternatively she could have gone over the railing into the garden.
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Always assuming the child knew where she was going. In sheer terror she could very well have been distracted and crossed the road remembering that that was the route she took to the club every morning. Remember too that the Portuguese tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent as far as the lamp post on the opposite side of the road to the entrance to mini reception.
IMO that route crossing road then crossing road again makes sense only if the child did not know for certain where the missing adults were.
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Not totally, for the emergency requiring Smithman to go to the DocLuz clinic could be justified by saying his daughter was hit by a car on the main road coming in to PDL. There was that patch of blood further up the road but it was mixed blood and mostly male human blood. So the simulation of the vehicle hit and run accident did not really work.
He definitely wasn't going to Luzdoc Robitty.
Aoife, in her statement, describes him coming towards her from her left. That means that he was heading in an easterly or possibly southerly direction.
He certainly was not going west.
LuzDoc was to the west, so he wasn't going there.
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He definitely wasn't going to Luzdoc Robitty.
Aoife, in her statement, describes him coming towards her from her left. That means that he was heading in an easterly or possibly southerly direction.
He certainly was not going west.
LuzDoc was to the west, so he wasn't going there.
In the maps I saw DocLuz was marked by an "M" for Mary I presumed so when he passed Mary he went past DocLuz.
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Always assuming the child knew where she was going. In sheer terror she could very well have been distracted and crossed the road remembering that that was the route she took to the club every morning. Remember too that the Portuguese tracker dogs followed Madeleine's scent as far as the lamp post on the opposite side of the road to the entrance to mini reception.
The tracker dogs started from the front door of G5A and followed a very unlikely route for a lone child to take in the dark.
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The tracker dogs started from the front door of G5A and followed a very unlikely route for a lone child to take in the dark.
This "front door of G5A" is that the unlocked sliding door or the locked one?
There is no way Madeleine could have gone out the locked wooden door without assistance. Whereas it might be possible for a 4 year old to open the unlocked sliding door.
Has anyone got that as a diagram so there is no question which door we are talking about?
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In my theory the person extracting Madeleine from the apartment is a different person to Smithman. So if the initial tracking of Madeleine from the apartment doesn't relate well to where Smithman goes this is expected.= as they are separate motives being acted out in both those movements.
I would expect most of the others who support the abduction theory would probably assume the abductor, e.g. Smithman if involved, took Madeleine from her bed.
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IMO that route crossing road then crossing road again makes sense only if the child did not know for certain where the missing adults were.
I agree, there is no evidence that Madeleine ever went out for a walk at night so such an environment would be alien to her. Accepting for the moment that she was woken up and startled by an intruder attempting to get into the apartment via her bedroom window, once she left the relative elevated safety of the apartment balcony she would be effectively lost and disorientated. She could very well have crossed the road but turned back when she recognised the entrance to mini reception.
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He definitely wasn't going to Luzdoc Robitty.
Aoife, in her statement, describes him coming towards her from her left. That means that he was heading in an easterly or possibly southerly direction.
He certainly was not going west.
LuzDoc was to the west, so he wasn't going there.
You can't possibly say that. By the time he reached the side door to Luzdoc which would have coincided with him passing Peter Smith he would have seen through the door/windows that the medical centre was closed. That could be why he went down the right side of Rua da Escola Primária after passing Peter yet he went straight across the road thereafter.
(http://www.i.imgur.com/hzRijnZh.jpg)
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I agree, there is no evidence that Madeleine ever went out for a walk at night so such an environment would be alien to her. Accepting for the moment that she was woken up and startled by an intruder attempting to get into the apartment via her bedroom window, once she left the relative elevated safety of the apartment balcony she would be effectively lost and disorientated. She could very well have crossed the road but turned back when she recognised the entrance to mini reception.
And what happens after that? How does she go missing altogether following this scenario? Does the intruder come around and pick her up outside "the entrance to mini reception"?
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And what happens after that? How does she go missing altogether following this scenario? Does the intruder come around and pick her up outside "the entrance to mini reception"?
All this is purely hypothetical Rob, we are looking at the possibility she was hit by a motor vehicle. I refer you to my initial post.
It could have played out something like this.
Madeleine exits apartment after being freaked out by an intruder attempting to get in through the bedroom window, runs out into street and is knocked down by a passing motorist. In the gloom and with nobody about and seeing that the child is lifeless the driver panicks, lifts the child, puts her in his vehicle and drives off to consider his next move. Maybe he doesn't have a licence, maybe he is underage, intoxicated, has no insurance, a banned driver, out on the rob, the possibilities are endless.
After a delay his conscience gets the better of him, he then decides to take Madeleine for treatment on the off chance that the medical centre is open so returns to the town and drives down to where he can park. He then carries the child down to the medical centre passing the first of the Smiths before realising it is closed. Terrified he walks on so as not to attract undue attention, he passes the rest of the Smith family and goes down the steps to get out of the way only to return the way he came and return to his vehicle. Realising the girl really is deceased he reviews his options and drives off.
And so the Madeleine McCann mystery is born.
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All this is purely hypothetical Rob, we are looking at the possibility she was hit by a motor vehicle. I refer you to my initial post.
I remember that now, so you could link them together???? And this not seen or heard by the people in reception. I need to know the layout better.
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All this is purely hypothetical Rob, we are looking at the possibility she was hit by a motor vehicle. I refer you to my initial post.
Hi John you and I could have a very similar theory in fact. It would be after the hit and run that the Smithman would come in and take the injured girl to seek medical help. But later something happens that makes the transfer back to the McCanns difficult. (It is understanding the situation that makes the transfer difficult that I have been working on.)
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I remember that now, so you could link them together???? And this not seen or heard by the people in reception. I need to know the layout better.
Mini reception was not normally manned in the evening, it was simply the access point from the street to the gardens/pool/tapas area.
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Hi John you and I could have a very similar theory in fact. It would be after the hit and run that the Smithman would come in and take the injured girl to seek medical help. But later something happens that makes the transfer back to the McCanns difficult. (It is understanding the situation that makes the transfer difficult that I have been working on.)
If she was run over between blocks 5 and 6 then the driver would not know where she originated and with no witnesses God knows what would go through his mind...all purely hypothetical of course!
The map below might help you to identify specific locations.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3R29Icg2XPQ/VMoZNYqWsKI/AAAAAAAAKOA/lpdfnOY5IVI/s1600/Ocean%2BClub%2Bleaflet.jpg)
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If she was run over between blocks 5 and 6 then the driver would not know where she originated and with no witnesses God knows what would go through his mind...all purely hypothetical of course!
The map below might help you to identify specific locations.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3R29Icg2XPQ/VMoZNYqWsKI/AAAAAAAAKOA/lpdfnOY5IVI/s1600/Ocean%2BClub%2Bleaflet.jpg)
So when it says they went to reception to call the police they go to the building with 7 on it? A couple of minutes walk from the Tapas restaurant. Thanks for that layout diagram.
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Did you notice that Luz Doc is 16 on this information pamphlet so basically everyone would know roughly where it is soon after arriving.
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If she was run over between blocks 5 and 6 then the driver would not know where she originated and with no witnesses God knows what would go through his mind...all purely hypothetical of course ... (snip)
@John, cases where a driver drove away are many, but are there any cases where a driver removed a casualty?
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@John, cases where a driver drove away are many, but are there any cases where a driver removed a casualty?
And if an innocent bystander observes the accident happening and takes the injured child to Doc Luz in the off chance it was still open and then finds it closed what does he do next?
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Call a cab to a and e?
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Call a cab to a and e?
I think his cell phone was left behind, so he has limited language skills and no cellphone, but he might have a contact address. Home is now back uphill and he is getting tired from carrying the girl in his arms.
Was there a taxi service in Praia da Luz?
Was the nearest hospital in Lagos?
He could wave down someone.
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If you have a hit and run child you can just bang on any door, shout, scream,mobile or not, conversant in local language or not, in fact even if you were deaf and dumb youd get help
It wasnt the middle of the sahara desert
And smithman was walking normally not running in any panic
Thats all
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If you have a hit and run child you can just bang on any door, shout, scream,mobile or not, conversant in local language or not, in fact even if you were deaf and dumb youd get help
It wasnt the middle of the sahara desert
And smithman was walking normally not running in any panic
Thats all
So you'd have to go to the nearest residential area, for all most businesses would be closed. Bang on a door and ask for help. So did Smithman do this? Or did he know someone close by that he knew he could talk to?
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Restaraunts were all open
Everywhere was residential
Your last two questions make no sense on many levels
Never mind, nite nite (if you ever sleep that is)
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Restaraunts were all open
Everywhere was residential
Your last two questions make no sense on many levels
Never mind, nite nite (if you ever sleep that is)
Smithman knows what he did, and we could profile his actions. "So did Smithman do this?
Or did he know someone close by that he knew he could talk to?
There were those charity collectors in the area. Had he talked to them and did he know where they were staying?
We can use our psychic senses to pick out his best option.