Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on August 26, 2016, 12:21:04 AM
Title: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2016, 12:21:04 AM
Robitty, as you have told us that you are late on the case I wonder if you are aware of Tasmin Milburn Sillence, the little girl who saw a man peering over the wall at 5A ? She lived there with her grandparents for a while.
Her Grandfather died, I think it was in hospital, BUT I dont KNOW that. He might have died at home in 5A. But in any case, would his pj's have been brought back, washed and stored in 5A.
If he was cremated, what happened to his ashes ? Were they stored in 5A ? Were they eventually lightly buried in the garden ?
Robitty, as you have told us that you are late on the case I wonder if you are aware of Tasmin Millburn Sillence, the little girl who saw a man peering over the wall at 5A ? She lived thgere with her grandparents for a while.
Her Grandfather died, I think it was in hospital, BUT I dont KNOW that. He might have died at home in 5A. But in any case, would his pj's have been brought back, washed and stored in 5A.
If he was cremated, what happened to his ashes ? Were they stored in 5A ? Were they eventually lightly buried in the garden ?
We dont know, do we ?
Knowing a little about the molecules that form during decomposition, none of them would be associated with the ashes of a cremated person. I would hazard a guess that cadaver dogs would not react to human ash remains.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2016, 01:55:17 AM
So there may be a possibility that any dog alerts in 5A garden were in response to the ashes of Tasmin's late Grandpa?
I doubt we shall ever know for sure.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2016, 01:57:34 AM
It was said that the cadavar dog could react to burned bodies. Dunno if this meant as burned as cremated, but ....?
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: mercury on August 26, 2016, 02:00:39 AM
Knowing a little about the molecules that form during decomposition, none of them would be associated with the ashes of a cremated person. I would hazard a guess that cadaver dogs would not react to human ash remains.
http://youtu.be/SmHdPGyQt2M
Eddie alerts to death old or new
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: misty on August 26, 2016, 02:16:54 AM
The dog didn't actually alert in the garden in the trained fashion. Please remember that the US dog training is to a far higher standard than ours was in 2007.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: mercury on August 26, 2016, 02:23:26 AM
The dog didn't actually alert in the garden in the trained fashion. Please remember that the US dog training is to a far higher standard than ours was in 2007.
It doesnt really matter, besides Grime took Eddie for extra trainng in the USA What matters is that dog alerted to the mccanns ONLY and the only response has been the handler was biased or corrupt...tell that to a court of law,see how far you get
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 26, 2016, 02:48:19 PM
Robitty, as you have told us that you are late on the case I wonder if you are aware of Tasmin Milburn, the little girl who saw a man peering over the wall at 5A ? She lived there with her grandparents for a while.
Her Grandfather died, I think it was in hospital, BUT I dont KNOW that. He might have died at home in 5A. But in any case, would his pj's have been brought back, washed and stored in 5A.
If he was cremated, what happened to his ashes ? Were they stored in 5A ? Were they eventually lightly buried in the garden ?
I know we have touched on this previously Sadie but it is so relevant that it should have its own thread.
From Tasmin's police statement...
"She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside."
My own feeling is that there had been items stored in the apartment associated with the deceased grandparents and that was the source of the cadaver alerts. Further, I don't recall the dog handler mentioning this in his report so could it be he was never briefed in respect of these previous occurrences associated with 5a?
PS. The man Tasmin saw btw was Michael Anthony Green, subsequently eliminated from the investigation.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 26, 2016, 03:42:08 PM
I know we have touched on this previously Sadie but it is so relevant that it should have its own thread.
From Tasmin's police statement...
"She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside."
My own feeling is that there had been items stored in the apartment associated with the deceased grandparents and that was the source of the cadaver alerts. Further, I don't recall the dog handler mentioning this in his report so could it be he was never briefed in respect of these previous occurrences associated with 5a?
PS. The man Tasmin saw btw was Michael Anthony Green, subsequently eliminated from the investigation.
Is there any idea what Mr Green was doing in Luz? (Apart from seemingly observing 5A, obviously.)
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 26, 2016, 04:02:33 PM
I know we have touched on this previously Sadie but it is so relevant that it should have its own thread.
From Tasmin's police statement...
"She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside."
My own feeling is that there had been items stored in the apartment associated with the deceased grandparents and that was the source of the cadaver alerts. Further, I don't recall the dog handler mentioning this in his report so could it be he was never briefed in respect of these previous occurrences associated with 5a?
PS. The man Tasmin saw btw was Michael Anthony Green, subsequently eliminated from the investigation.
IMO, John, there could be quite a few explanations as to Eddie's reaction. Simply casually asking around if anyone was aware of anyone who'd previously died in that flat does not constitute a full investigation into further leads with a potentially innocent or irrelevant explanation.
Grime may have over-egged his marketing pudding, but the original PJ team didn't seem to have taken too much trouble to investigate further, either.
It wasn't until later that that PT law enforcement was tiptoeing around the delicate diplomatic issue of wondering WTF Eddie was actually reacting to, if anything, of potential significance.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: slartibartfast on August 26, 2016, 04:38:08 PM
Robitty, as you have told us that you are late on the case I wonder if you are aware of Tasmin Milburn Sillence, the little girl who saw a man peering over the wall at 5A ? She lived there with her grandparents for a while.
Her Grandfather died, I think it was in hospital, BUT I dont KNOW that. He might have died at home in 5A. But in any case, would his pj's have been brought back, washed and stored in 5A.
If he was cremated, what happened to his ashes ? Were they stored in 5A ? Were they eventually lightly buried in the garden ?
Apparently SY requested this information be removed from the files before they were made public. Michael Anthony Green (Volume III pages 632 to 726)
The information in that entire section of the report was suppressed due to Portuguese law - nothing to do with the Brits.
The little I know about Mr Green is that he is what I would call a street busker, though he probably uses a grander title. However, he is based in Lagos, and I find it odd that a Lagos street busker was allegedly monitoring block 5 in Luz on two separate occasions.
He got cleared by the PJ first time round. I believe he went through OG in Dec 2014 as part of Andy Redwood's last throw of the dice.
I'm still curious as to why a Lagos street musician should be in the vicinity of 5A before Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 26, 2016, 05:18:14 PM
Unless you have some reason to believe either Grandparent died in the flat, in the town or even in Portugal, then this is pure speculation.
I don't agree. It makes no difference where one or both grandparents died because once something touches cadaverine then it cannot be got rid of. Sadie makes a good point about this, contaminated clothing and personal effects relating to one or both grandparents could very well have been returned to 5a and put in that built-in wardrobe.
However, wouldn't it be great if Tasmin Sillence were to get in touch and tell us for sure?
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
I don't agree. It makes no difference where one or both grandparents died because once something touches cadaverine then it cannot be got rid of. Sadie makes a good point about this, contaminated clothing and personal effects relating to one or both grandparents could very well have been returned to 5a and put in that built-in wardrobe.
However, wouldn't it be great if Tasmin Sillence were to get in touch and tell us for sure?
Not really. She probably couldn't say anything that isn't already in the public domain.
The risk for her is that the extremist community may well attempt to dissect her life to the nth degree to "prove" the latest conspiracy theory and quite possibly make various mini-Spielberg episodes about even a sneeze as somehow representing something suspicious.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
I don't agree. It makes no difference where one or both grandparents died because once something touches cadaverine then it cannot be got rid of. Sadie makes a good point about this, contaminated clothing and personal effects relating to one or both grandparents could very well have been returned to 5a and put in that built-in wardrobe.
However, wouldn't it be great if Tasmin Sillence were to get in touch and tell us for sure?
From memory, the grandad didn't die in PdL (and no, it would take forever to find a link all over again). However, it's entirely possible that some sentimental item or other from the time of death - or even ashes - were in that flat.
An issue that doesn't seem to have been resolved is that the gran appeared to have lived there for quite some time as a widow, then sadly died as well.
Did the gran live with her husband's bed in her bedroom, or was the conversion to a rental unit done afterwards? If so, where did the extra furniture come from?
ETA: I tried to find a link as to where Tasmin's grandad died, but without success so far. It's possible that I was confusing him with Ruth McCann's husband, who died in Liverpool in 2006.
Who owns Apartment 5A? http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 26, 2016, 05:49:12 PM
Not really. She probably couldn't say anything that isn't already in the public domain.
The risk for her is that the extremist community may well attempt to dissect her life to the nth degree to "prove" the latest conspiracy theory and quite possibly make various mini-Spielberg episodes about even a sneeze as somehow representing something suspicious.
Oh come on Carana, she would know the how and where of it all, something which is not in the public domain. Foir example it would be interesting to know where they died and where they were waked. Also, if indeed clothing and personal effects were returned to 5a.
You raise some good questions yourself above.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 26, 2016, 06:08:35 PM
Oh come on Carana, she would know the how and where of it all, something which is not in the public domain. Foir example it would be interesting to know where they died and where they were waked. Also, if indeed clothing and personal effects were returned to 5a.
You raise some good questions yourself above.
I do remember where gramps allegedly died, and it wasn't in PdL, nor even in PT. However, I really can't be bothered (for once) to hunt for a link. I don't know about granny. *
TS was 12 at the time of the disappearance and therefore no doubt younger at the time of her grandparents' deaths. Whatever personal keepsakes there may - or may not - have been, they may well not have been the sort of thing that one would discuss with a child.
What difference does it make anyway?
If she has remembered other details of potential significance, she may have already contacted OG.
* Double-checking, Ruth McCann's husband died in Liverpool in 2006. I'm no longer sure where Tasmin's grandparents died.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: mercury on August 26, 2016, 10:34:47 PM
IMO, John, there could be quite a few explanations as to Eddie's reaction. Simply casually asking around if anyone was aware of anyone who'd previously died in that flat does not constitute a full investigation into further leads with a potentially innocent or irrelevant explanation.
Grime may have over-egged his marketing pudding, but the original PJ team didn't seem to have taken too much trouble to investigate further, either.
It wasn't until later that that PT law enforcement was tiptoeing around the delicate diplomatic issue of wondering WTF Eddie was actually reacting to, if anything, of potential significance.
Where did you get the impression the PJ just "casually asked around"? as opposed to check all records? Didnt GA write about this in his book?
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2016, 11:37:16 PM
Knowing a little about the molecules that form during decomposition, none of them would be associated with the ashes of a cremated person. I would hazard a guess that cadaver dogs would not react to human ash remains.
Nonsense- unless you pretend know better than the authorities in California who used cadaver dogs to search for victim remains in ruins burnt out by wildfires. Here's a picture
"A San Bernardino Fire Department firefighter works with a cadaver dog searching the ruins for anyone who may have been overrun by the flames of a wildfire along State"
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2016, 11:55:29 PM
Completely irrelevant IMO but according to files, case had been to Derry a few weeks before
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: faithlilly on August 27, 2016, 12:19:55 AM
I know we have touched on this previously Sadie but it is so relevant that it should have its own thread.
From Tasmin's police statement...
"She also mentions that she lived in the apartment where the missing child was staying, that belonged to her Grandmother, who is already deceased. That she didn't actually reside there, but spent extensive and repeated periods of time there, with her Grandmother and her Mother. The apartment was bought in 1994 and sold in 2002 and therefore she knows it perfectly, both from the inside and from the outside."
My own feeling is that there had been items stored in the apartment associated with the deceased grandparents and that was the source of the cadaver alerts. Further, I don't recall the dog handler mentioning this in his report so could it be he was never briefed in respect of these previous occurrences associated with 5a?
PS. The man Tasmin saw btw was Michael Anthony Green, subsequently eliminated from the investigation.
Tamsin doesn't mention her grandfather so as far as we know her grandparents could have been divorced. There is nothing in her statement that would lead us to believe that her grandfather ever lived in 5a never mind died there.
It really isn't helpful when posters constantly put two and two together and make five.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2016, 12:46:26 AM
Tamsin doesn't mention her grandfather so as far as we know her grandparents could have been divorced. There is nothing in her statement that would lead us to believe that her grandfather ever lived in 5a never mind died there.
It really isn't helpful when posters constantly put two and two together and make five.
Yep they could have been divorced ... and they could have been together and very fond of each other.
I see no harm in discussing the possibilities that ashes or the deceased clothing could have given out a cadavar odour. Do you ?
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: mercury on August 27, 2016, 12:52:44 AM
It just happens that maybe ashes or clothng from the past may have been the reason for eddies alerts in 5a and nowhere else
It just MUST be anythng except a dead body of the missing child
Its qute laughable when noone knows for a fact that it couldnt have been
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 12:58:55 AM
Nonsense- unless you pretend know better than the authorities in California who used cadaver dogs to search for victim remains in ruins burnt out by wildfires. Here's a picture http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_fire2_dc_160821_12x5_1600.jpg "A San Bernardino Fire Department firefighter works with a cadaver dog searching the ruins for anyone who may have been overrun by the flames of a wildfire along State"
Completely different situation. Wildfire burning a body is very different to the incineration you get with cremation.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: misty on August 27, 2016, 01:10:40 AM
I did give a video link (to make it easy for people) post 4 Was ignored, oh well,
Yes 100 year old skeletised remains from pelvic cavity area.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 27, 2016, 11:23:36 AM
A very good point was made earlier regarding ashes relating to human cremations. There is every possibility that ashes were taken to 5a relating to previous occupants, what really surprises me though is that there are no references in the files to this having been investigated in an attempt to explain the cadaver dog alerts.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 11:31:51 AM
A very good point was made earlier regarding ashes relating to human cremations. There is every possibility that ashes were taken to 5a relating to previous occupants, what really surprises me though is that there are no references in the files to this having been investigated in an attempt to explain the cadaver dog alerts.
I still maintain that following a professionally performed cremation there is no cadaver odour present in the ashes. So this variation makes no effect on the cadaver dog alerts.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2016, 12:19:49 PM
I still maintain that following a professionally performed cremation there is no cadaver odour present in the ashes. So this variation makes no effect on the cadaver dog alerts.
Why not? Bone is part of what they are trained to find.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 27, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
I still maintain that following a professionally performed cremation there is no cadaver odour present in the ashes. So this variation makes no effect on the cadaver dog alerts.
I believe that to be true, the temperature involved destroys all organic material but cadaverine could get onto any receptible which originated in an undertakers by various means don't you think? Undertakers dealing with bodies will transfer cadaverine routinely, remember this substance cannot be removed by cleaning. Exposure to deceased persons was also given as the explanation as to why Eddie alerted to some of Kate's clothing.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2016, 12:26:11 PM
There are hundreds of scents associated with decomposition, depending on the type of substance (s) and the stage of decomposition.
ETA: There are several studies on the subject. Here's one:
And another: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_rska-C58YwC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=cadaver+dog+%22cremated+remains%22&source=bl&ots=X3FbPAot6F&sig=yadhPSB_dAv3TTiMxsEnR27FqBI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1-Pz5wOHOAhUD0RQKHcUDDGUQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=cadaver%20dog%20%22cremated%20remains%22&f=false
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2016, 12:50:23 PM
A very good point was made earlier regarding ashes relating to human cremations. There is every possibility that ashes were taken to 5a relating to previous occupants, what really surprises me though is that there are no references in the files to this having been investigated in an attempt to explain the cadaver dog alerts.
I think they failed to differentiate between what the handler told them of the dogs' capabilities and what he told them regarding the exact substance in law of those capabilities.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 12:56:02 PM
I believe that to be true, the temperature involved destroys all organic material but cadaverine could get onto any receptible which originated in an undertakers by various means don't you think? Undertakers dealing with bodies will transfer cadaverine routinely, remember this substance cannot be removed by cleaning. Exposure to deceased persons was also given as the explanation as to why Eddie alerted to some of Kate's clothing.
There seems to be a lot of myths about this cadaverine and cadaver odour. But the Earth has been around a long time 4.5 billion years and if cadaver odour didn't fade every spot on the earth would have had a death on it over the entire history of the Earth. So it obviously fades with time and can be washed off.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Carana on August 27, 2016, 01:11:44 PM
I think they failed to differentiate between what the handler told them of the dogs' capabilities and what he told them regarding the exact substance in law of those capabilities.
Actually, I think that Harrison and Grime (in his report as opposed to his promo CV), did try to emphasise the legal side through the need for forensic corroboration, but I'm not sure that anyone was listening in the initial PJ team.
Unless my memory fails me, it wasn't actually until Grime's answers to the rogatory questions, that anyone was aware that Eddie would react to the dried blood of a living human. No one thought to ask (at least according to the files), what other substances were in his "training parameters".
Grime did state that Eddie hadn't reacted to road kill or meat (particularly pork) for human consumption (with the example of a restaurant inspection).
It's not clear which species of animals Eddie may ever have encountered as road kill, and hopefully most restaurants don't keep weeks-old remains of rotting meat.
And, aside from the other question mark over the Jersey tissues, that's about all anyone can glean.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: John on August 27, 2016, 03:43:35 PM
There seems to be a lot of myths about this cadaverine and cadaver odour. But the Earth has been around a long time 4.5 billion years and if cadaver odour didn't fade every spot on the earth would have had a death on it over the entire history of the Earth. So it obviously fades with time and can be washed off.
It fades in time but cannot be removed by washing.
Title: Re: Previous deaths directly and indirectly associated with apartment 5a.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2016, 09:08:52 PM
It fades in time but cannot be removed by washing.
You're funny like that. Put it this way do you think the cadaver dog would react to the water that came from the washing process as well as the item? If you say "yes" then washing is removing some of it from the item. Therefore wash it often enough and the dog will not indicate on the original item.