Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfie on September 08, 2016, 06:57:41 PM
Title: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 08, 2016, 06:57:41 PM
Let's play the game - pick any sentence at random from Kate's book and attempt to show how it is "strange" it is and "makes no sense".
24
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 07:38:40 PM
No, I think that once certain individuals get into their stride it has the potential to be the longest thread ever.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 08, 2016, 07:46:36 PM
OK, I'll kick it off.
‘He would put his arm round me, reassuring me and telling me that he loved me,’ she writes about Gerry.
It seems to me that Gerry, being Glaswegian and therefore probably quite undemonstrative and "hard" , doesn't look the sort to behave in such a lovey-dovey way. Therefore I doubt this ever happened. It seems a bit fishy to me. COuld Kate have made this bit up to try and give the reader the impression that she was in a loving and supportive marriage when the opposite is almost certainly the case?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 07:51:40 PM
No, I think that once certain individuals get into their stride it has the potential to be the longest thread ever.
I read her book a couple of weeks back and thought it was pretty well written. I was surprised at her inner violent temper that she had methods of controlling. Her conflict between belief in God and disbelief also interesting as I too understand that.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2016, 07:58:34 PM
I read her book a couple of weeks back and thought it was pretty well written. I was surprised at her inner violent temper that she had methods of controlling. Her conflict between belief in God and disbelief also interesting as I too understand that.
Indeed, the 'inner violent temper'.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 08, 2016, 08:17:52 PM
I read her book a couple of weeks back and thought it was pretty well written. I was surprised at her inner violent temper that she had methods of controlling. Her conflict between belief in God and disbelief also interesting as I too understand that.
I can't find any reference to her temper or her methods of controlling it. Can you point me in the right direction?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 08:21:36 PM
The most well known one was repeating the words "You tosser" But there are many more.
You seriously class that as inner violent temper?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 08:54:41 PM
A more dramatic sentence is found on page 340 where she wants to kill someone. "I would lie on the bed, hating the person who had done this to us ..... I wanted to kill him."
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2016, 08:56:44 PM
A more dramatic sentence is found on page 340 where she wants to kill someone. "I would lie on the bed, hating the person who had done this to us ..... I wanted to kill him."
Therein lies the irony.
They did it to themselves, but want to blame someone who hasn't even been proved to exist.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 09:06:15 PM
They did it to themselves, but want to blame someone who hasn't even been proved to exist.
You must be one of the most stubbornest persons on the Earth. Even if someone confesses to taking Madeleine you would have a way of making the McCanns to blame.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2016, 09:09:31 PM
You must be one of the most stubbornest persons on the Earth. Even if someone confesses to taking Madeleine you would have a way of making the McCanns to blame.
Nah.
You need to wake up to the reality of what the Mccanns did.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 08, 2016, 09:15:14 PM
You need to wake up to the reality of what the Mccanns did.
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what they did which was so different to the actions of the other 3 sets of parents whose children didn't go missing?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 09:15:51 PM
I thought I'd use the index to see if the word violent was in there but my eye caught the words "police confrontational interview" with Robert Murat 244-5. Turning to the page you can read about the interview but on page 244 is the crucial sentence in the whole book, one that would just pass by everyone else.
"They waited for a while because the police said Silvia Batista would be joining them. For some reason she never did."
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2016, 09:24:26 PM
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what they did which was so different to the actions of the other 3 sets of parents whose children didn't go missing?
They were just as bad.
By the way, did they also leave their respective accommodations unlocked ?
If the Mccanns felt there was no possibility of burglary, why did they lock the apartment during the daytime ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 08, 2016, 09:26:28 PM
The most well known one was repeating the words "You tosser" But there are many more.
You interpret that as a method of controlling her temper? She doesn't say that though;
This quiet chant somehow kept me strong, kept me in control. This man did not deserve my respect. ‘F**k*ng t*ss*r . .
She didn't always manage control;
I felt like a caged, demented animal. This was, without doubt, torture of the cruellest kind. Finally, I erupted. I began to scream, swear and lash out. I kicked an extra bed that had been brought into the apartment and smashed the end right off it. [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 09:33:35 PM
You interpret that as a method of controlling her temper? She doesn't say that though;
This quiet chant somehow kept me strong, kept me in control. This man did not deserve my respect. ‘F**k*ng t*ss*r . .
She didn't always manage control;
I felt like a caged, demented animal. This was, without doubt, torture of the cruellest kind. Finally, I erupted. I began to scream, swear and lash out. I kicked an extra bed that had been brought into the apartment and smashed the end right off it. [Madeleine]
Yes that was a better example. Yes but consider what could have happened if the words "‘F**k*ng t*ss*r . . " had not kept her in "control", she might have dealt to the cop!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 08, 2016, 10:11:39 PM
By the way, did they also leave their respective accommodations unlocked ?
If the Mccanns felt there was no possibility of burglary, why did they lock the apartment during the daytime ?
The McCanns didn't. Cleaner's testimony re the Wednesday (on the video I think) in which she said both parents left by the patio door. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pUKiuugYUI (from 1m36s) The Oldfields didn't. (Rachel's rogatory)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id253.html
*snipped* 1578 “In terms of entry and exit to your apartment, which entry or exit did you most frequently use”? Reply “We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we’d go out the patio doors and just leave them unlocked, erm cos you couldn’t lock them from the outside but I mean certainly at night when we went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of hours, then we went out the front door and you could you know, double lock it so”.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 08, 2016, 10:30:07 PM
Yes that was a better example. Yes but consider what could have happened if the words "‘F**k*ng t*ss*r . . " had not kept her in "control", she might have dealt to the cop!
Doing that, she said, kept her strong. If you're not strong you're weak. I interpret that as saying it helped her to control her weakness, not her temper. If we are overcome by weakness we break down, not attack.
When she was questioned by Neves and Encarnação previously she definitely broke down;
Neves stated bluntly that they didn’t believe my version of events. It ‘didn’t fit’ with what they knew. Didn’t fit? What did they know? I was sobbing now, well past the stage of silent tears and stifled sniffs. I began to wail hysterically, drawing breath in desperate gasps. Why did I think Madeleine had been alive when she was taken from the apartment? they persisted. I explained between sobs that there had been nothing to suggest otherwise; no indication that she might have come to harm....was incapable of looking at anyone properly: my own eyes were so swollen and sore that I was struggling to keep them from closing completely. [Madeleine]
Perhaps that was what she was trying to avoid this time?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 08, 2016, 10:59:43 PM
Doing that, she said, kept her strong. If you're not strong you're weak. I interpret that as saying it helped her to control her weakness, not her temper. If we are overcome by weakness we break down, not attack.
When she was questioned by Neves and Encarnação previously she definitely broke down;
Neves stated bluntly that they didn’t believe my version of events. It ‘didn’t fit’ with what they knew. Didn’t fit? What did they know? I was sobbing now, well past the stage of silent tears and stifled sniffs. I began to wail hysterically, drawing breath in desperate gasps. Why did I think Madeleine had been alive when she was taken from the apartment? they persisted. I explained between sobs that there had been nothing to suggest otherwise; no indication that she might have come to harm....was incapable of looking at anyone properly: my own eyes were so swollen and sore that I was struggling to keep them from closing completely. [Madeleine]
Perhaps that was what she was trying to avoid this time?
True one wouldn't want that every day. But the word control is there in the sentence as well. And the opposite of control is out of control. I find I feel for her and I nearly cry along with her. I believe she is innocent to the nth degree.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 12:11:15 AM
A more dramatic sentence is found on page 340 where she wants to kill someone. "I would lie on the bed, hating the person who had done this to us ..... I wanted to kill him."
Clearly evidence of psychopathy.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 09, 2016, 12:16:21 AM
True one wouldn't want that every day. But the word control is there in the sentence as well. And the opposite of control is out of control. I find I feel for her and I nearly cry along with her. I believe she is innocent to the nth degree.
What was the reason for the crying, do you think?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2016, 01:23:23 AM
quote There had been a ‘shift’ in the investigation, they said. They had always been optimistic that Madeleine was alive, but now things had changed. Almost instantaneously I could feel my breathing pattern altering and that familiar constriction in my throat. Gerry asked if any evidence had come to light to suggest that Madeleine was dead but they wouldn’t reply. end quote
quote Now the sirens in my head were deafening. I was on my own and afraid. Please God, let my Madeleine be OK. end quote
quote Through his tears he pleaded with the two men: ‘Do you have evidence that Madeleine is dead? We’re her parents. You have to tell us.’ ‘It’s coming,’ Neves told him. ‘It’s coming!’ end quote
She was crying.
Her husband was crying.
Because they thought their daughter was dead.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 09, 2016, 09:17:12 AM
From what Kate says the interview with Neves and Encarnação broke the law. Nothing was being written down, they had no official interpreter and were not offered legal representation because they weren't arguidos.
Despite that she was clearly being pushed to confess to something. Portuguese law says that a witness must be made arguido if they are going to be questioned in such a way that their answers may incriminate them. In other words they are entitled to legal advice and to the right to remain silent. This interview wasn't even a witness interview; it wasn't recorded.
Kate says Gerry made phone calls in search of help, but not if any was forthcoming or what form it took.
She doesn't say if they complained about this interview, but it's clear they should have and that the British officials should have advised this and helped them to do it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 09, 2016, 09:44:49 AM
From what Kate says the interview with Neves and Encarnação broke the law. Nothing was being written down, they had no official interpreter and were not offered legal representation because they weren't arguidos.
Despite that she was clearly being pushed to confess to something. Portuguese law says that a witness must be made arguido if they are going to be questioned in such a way that their answers may incriminate them. In other words they are entitled to legal advice and to the right to remain silent. This interview wasn't even a witness interview; it wasn't recorded.
Kate says Gerry made phone calls in search of help, but not if any was forthcoming or what form it took.
She doesn't say if they complained about this interview, but it's clear they should have and that the British officials should have advised this and helped them to do it.
There must be a limit to what the UK authorities would be willing to interfere with an investigation. Maybe they OKed this questioning, even if it seems wrong to us.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 09, 2016, 04:45:47 PM
There must be a limit to what the UK authorities would be willing to interfere with an investigation. Maybe they OKed this questioning, even if it seems wrong to us.
Well, we don't know what they thought really, but if the interview was carried out as Kate described it wasn't in accordance with Portuguese law.
When they left the police station the Portuguese media were waiting, but I can't find any photos of Kate as she describes herself;
My eyes were narrow slits in fat, purple lids. My blotchy face seemed to be ageing by the day. [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 04:48:04 PM
Well, we don't know what they thought really, but if the interview was carried out as Kate described it wasn't in accordance with Portuguese law.
When they left the police station the Portuguese media were waiting, but I can't find any photos of Kate as she describes herself;
My eyes were narrow slits in fat, purple lids. My blotchy face seemed to be ageing by the day. [Madeleine]
My reading of this is that Kate is obsessed with her looks and is fishing for compliments. Obviously she couldn't really have been so distressed to have caused the disfigurement she describes. It's made up nonsense and makes no sense..
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2016, 05:16:20 PM
My reading of this is that Kate is obsessed with her looks and is fishing for compliments. Obviously she couldn't really have been so distressed to have caused the disfigurement she describes. It's made up nonsense and makes no sense..
I tend to the view that the press must have arrived without any photographers. What a scoop a photo of Kate in such a state would have been!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 05:34:16 PM
My reading of this is that Kate is obsessed with her looks and is fishing for compliments. Obviously she couldn't really have been so distressed to have caused the disfigurement she describes. It's made up nonsense and makes no sense..
That seems to be heartless.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 09, 2016, 09:24:41 PM
I didn't mean it as sarcasm. I was replying to the previous comments about where Kate describes herself as looking aged by the stress she is going through. In what way did you think I was being sarcastic please? Kate is quoted earlier saying "My eyes were narrow slits in fat, purple lids. My blotchy face seemed to be ageing by the day."
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 09, 2016, 09:41:38 PM
I didn't mean it as sarcasm. I was replying to the previous comments about where Kate describes herself as looking aged by the stress she is going through. In what way did you think I was being sarcastic please? Kate is quoted earlier saying "My eyes were narrow slits in fat, purple lids. My blotchy face seemed to be ageing by the day."
Looks more slightly concerned? It depends on what she is looking at.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 09, 2016, 09:45:35 PM
Yeah, let's have some photos of REAL Kate distress to pore over, good idea.
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 11:20:53 PM
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
Yeah let's - that would be super entertaining.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 09, 2016, 11:24:25 PM
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
Incidentally, considering you believe she knew her child came to a sticky end accidentally, and that you concede she did love her daughter (sort of) how do you account for the fact that Kate McCann was so completely distress-free in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance? I'm sure you've got a very plausible explanation.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 11:28:58 PM
Incidentally, considering you believe she knew her child came to a sticky end accidentally, and that you concede she did love her daughter (sort of) how do you account for the fact that Kate McCann was so completely distress-free in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance? I'm sure you've got a very plausible explanation.
I don't think I said she was distress free did I ? I said rthere was very few photographs of the phenomena. There are, however, quite a few of her looking, shall we say, less than distressed. Cue the trite excuses.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 09, 2016, 11:40:45 PM
I don't think I said she was distress free did I ? I said rthere was very few photographs of the phenomena. There are, however, quite a few of her looking, shall we say, less than distressed. Cue the trite excuses.
Here's another one of them looking relaxed and happy
I don't think I said she was distress free did I ? I said rthere was very few photographs of the phenomena. There are, however, quite a few of her looking, shall we say, less than distressed. Cue the trite excuses.
So you don't think losing a daughter really caused her that much grief then?
You should go and see the new film about Nick Cave as a study in what losing a child does to a person, a family and then try and explain why, in your view, Madeleine's accidental death was no biggie to this particular family.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2016, 11:43:58 PM
So you don't think losing a daughter really caused her that much grief then?
You should go and see the new film about Nick Cave as a study in what losing a child does to a person, a family and then try and explain why, in your view, Madeleine's accidental death was no biggie to this particular family.
There you go again putting words into my mouth Alfie. I'm sure the McCanns were grief-stricken at losing their daughter.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 09, 2016, 11:48:49 PM
There you go again putting words into my mouth Alfie. I'm sure the McCanns were grief-stricken at losing their daughter.
Perhaps you could explain what you meant by the following then:
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
If you're sure they were grief stricken, why do you also doubt that there are any photos of "real" distress? Why are you only able to recall photos of "ear to ear grins"?
You're not making much sense tonight.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2016, 12:12:15 AM
Perhaps you could explain what you meant by the following then:
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
If you're sure they were grief stricken, why do you also doubt that there are any photos of "real" distress? Why are you only able to recall photos of "ear to ear grins"?
You're not making much sense tonight.
Be fair Alfie. I'm sure that even you'll agree that the photos of the McCanns looking relaxed or/and smiling in the first weeks and months after Madeleine's disappearance greatly outweigh the photos in which they look distressed, in fact the few I am aware of you have already posted. The reason for their demeanour only they know. All I can say is, as far as we know, before her disappearance Madeleine appeared to be a happy, well cared for child.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2016, 07:16:36 AM
posters are claiming the McCanns were not upset yet the same posters are claiming Maddie died in a tragic accident. that simply doesnt make sense and shows how misguided their thinking is
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2016, 07:38:32 AM
It is known tears can be put on, the expression being 'crocodile tears'.
There are several documentaries on the issue....................
The first time I saw them it looked genuine. Afterwards, that is a different story. Let's not forget how they were told to behave in public by their PR reps.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2016, 07:42:10 AM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf_xGkSWsAA3jt0.jpg)
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 10, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
Be fair Alfie. I'm sure that even you'll agree that the photos of the McCanns looking relaxed or/and smiling in the first weeks and months after Madeleine's disappearance greatly outweigh the photos in which they look distressed, in fact the few I am aware of you have already posted. The reason for their demeanour only they know. All I can say is, as far as we know, before her disappearance Madeleine appeared to be a happy, well cared for child.
No I don't agree' and I know better than to judge a person's emotional state from a few paparazzi photographs. Remember Davel's avatar of the girl arriving at the funeral of her whole family? She looked the picture of happiness. Does that mean she was happy?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 10, 2016, 08:38:15 AM
posters are claiming the McCanns were not upset yet the same posters are claiming Maddie died in a tragic accident. that simply doesnt make sense and shows how misguided their thinking is
Yes according to some sceptics, The McCanns had to deal not only with the accidental death of one of their children, but also with the stress of lying and covering up in front of the police and the world's media and yet were quite relaxed about it all, judging from a few pics. Logic please...?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: carlymichelle on September 10, 2016, 08:47:31 AM
calling an police officer an fkn tosser isnt very ladylike for a doctor imo
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2016, 08:48:07 AM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf_xHooWQAAInAF.jpg)
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: carlymichelle on September 10, 2016, 08:49:39 AM
Yes according to some sceptics, The McCanns had to deal not only with the accidental death of one of their children, but also with the stress of lying and covering up in front of the police and the world's media and yet were quite relaxed about it all, judging from a few pics. Logic please...?
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It's the same sceptic 'logic' which concludes that the McCanns have acting abilities sooooo superb they have fooled all the experts..( i.e. SY - the FLO's, trauma experts etc). BUT at the same time - they are such terrible actors that you only have to watch any video recording of them - and it is immediately obvious to those same sceptics that they are lying through their teeth.
Totally illogical IMO.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2016, 09:32:58 AM
It's the same sceptic 'logic' which concludes that the McCanns have acting abilities sooooo superb they have fooled all the experts..( i.e. SY - the FLO's, trauma experts etc). BUT at the same time - they are such terrible actors that you only have to watch any video recording of them - and it is immediately obvious to those same sceptics that they are lying through their teeth.
Totally illogical IMO.
Fooled all the experts ?
Which experts ?
and what of the experts who say different ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2016, 09:56:27 AM
No I don't agree' and I know better than to judge a person's emotional state from a few paparazzi photographs. Remember Davel's avatar of the girl arriving at the funeral of her whole family? She looked the picture of happiness. Does that mean she was happy?
If I remember correctly the girl in davel's photo was quite young so the way she would comprehend what was taking place may be very different from an adult and further her family were dead, the McCanns believed their daughter was in the hands of a paedophile which should have elicited a quite different set of emotions.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2016, 10:00:05 AM
It's the same sceptic 'logic' which concludes that the McCanns have acting abilities sooooo superb they have fooled all the experts..( i.e. SY - the FLO's, trauma experts etc). BUT at the same time - they are such terrible actors that you only have to watch any video recording of them - and it is immediately obvious to those same sceptics that they are lying through their teeth.
Totally illogical IMO.
The McCanns didn't have to act. They had lost their daughter.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 10, 2016, 10:01:04 AM
If I remember correctly the girl in davel's photo was quite young so the way she would comprehend what was taking place may be very different from an adult and further her family were dead, the McCanns believed their daughter was in the hands of a paedophile which should have elicited a quite different set of emotions.
Is that a fact? Or just a possibility along with all the other ones.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2016, 10:05:47 AM
Nothing wrong with it if he is being a "fkn tosser".
He did his job. If Kate mistook their relationship for a friendship she was wrong. FLO's are friendly, but part of their job is to pass to the investigators any information they see or hear which might help the investigation.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 10, 2016, 10:15:55 AM
He did his job. If Kate mistook their relationship for a friendship she was wrong. FLO's are friendly, but part of their job is to pass to the investigators any information they see or hear which might help the investigation.
Which is exactly what happened in the Shannon Mathews case I believe.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 10, 2016, 10:56:10 AM
Which is exactly what happened in the Shannon Mathews case I believe.
Agreed. It was the FLO who first noticed that Matthews was not behaving in the way a distraught mother would.
So can you explain why the FLO's or the trauma counsellors - who spent time with the McCanns and who were trained to make such behavioural observations - could all get it so wrong - as none of them noticed anything untoward or even slightly suspicious in the McCanns behaviour. Surely if anyone would be able to do that - it would be one or more of those experts?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 10, 2016, 11:09:48 AM
If I remember correctly the girl in davel's photo was quite young so the way she would comprehend what was taking place may be very different from an adult and further her family were dead, the McCanns believed their daughter was in the hands of a paedophile which should have elicited a quite different set of emotions.
She was old enough to understand that her entire family had been killed. Indeed there are photos of her weeping and looking utterly bereft on the same day. You don't half talk some nonsense sometimes Faithlilly. Was every minute of every day of the McCanns' facial expressions and emotions chartered for your perusal? If you added up all the split seconds it took to take all the photographs that were taken of them in that first month, how many seconds or minutes of their facial expressions in total do you think were recorded for your delectation? If we say that, on average, each photo was taken at 100th second shutter speed?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 10, 2016, 11:26:02 AM
If I remember correctly the girl in davel's photo was quite young so the way she would comprehend what was taking place may be very different from an adult and further her family were dead, the McCanns believed their daughter was in the hands of a paedophile which should have elicited a quite different set of emotions.
We can have no idea why the young girl was smiling, but IMO to even suggest that it was because she was feeling happy and relaxed in those harrowing circumstances is nonsense.
Anyone claiming that a person smiling is evidence of anything, especially guilt - when they don't know why they are smiling is being unrealistic IMO - especially as the person smiling could have a completely opposite facial expression only seconds later. There is an example of that in the photographs following page 264 of Kate's book.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 10, 2016, 11:31:05 AM
The McCanns didn't have to act. They had lost their daughter.
Yes they did have to act - they were supposed to look deeply traumatized permanently just in case a camera caught them looking anything other than completely bereft but they obviously weren't good enough actors to fool eagle-eyed ol' you, who claims not to be able to discern any genuine despair at all.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 10, 2016, 12:08:18 PM
Yes they did have to act - they were supposed to look deeply traumatized permanently just in case a camera caught them looking anything other than completely bereft but they obviously weren't good enough actors to fool eagle-eyed ol' you, who claims not to be able to discern any genuine despair at all.
You seemed to have reached the point of arguing both sides of the case. It should make wining your argument easier.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2016, 12:25:32 PM
Agreed. It was the FLO who first noticed that Matthews was not behaving in the way a distraught mother would.
So can you explain why the FLO's or the trauma counsellors - who spent time with the McCanns and who were trained to make such behavioural observations - could all get it so wrong - as none of them noticed anything untoward or even slightly suspicious in the McCanns behaviour. Surely if anyone would be able to do that - it would be one or more of those experts?
Whatever happened to Madeleine her parents were undoubtedly traumatised. The question is are the experts able to judge what caused the trauma?
The Matthews case was different because the mother knew her child hadn't been harmed, so her 'trauma' was acted, not real.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2016, 01:02:24 PM
I think you may have illustrated something if you think she is "modelling" or "posing". I have friends who if they wore sackcloth would be drop dead gorgeous. Not because they are conventionally beautiful ... but because they have grace and style. Something which Kate McCann has in spades (apologies to all digging implements) https://englishhelponline.me/2011/02/27/idiom-to-have-something-in-spades/ and for some yet another 'reason' to be offended.
The pictures are from a photo-shoot accompanying an interview to highlight the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance which in my opinion must have been an occasion of great stress.
Hardly surprising that in every frame shot her whole body is screaming grief. Therefore I disagree that there is anything 'posed' or 'faux' about the resulting photographs apart from an initial awareness that there was a photographer there. Who if any good at his/her job would to all intents and purposes become 'invisible'.
MISSING Madeleine McCann’s mum told yesterday how the astonishing rescue of Austrian dungeon girl Elisabeth Fritzl has given her fresh hope that her daughter is still alive.
Kate, 40, said that hearing how Elisabeth was saved after 24 years imprisonment renewed her belief that little Maddie may also be held captive somewhere.
Speaking ahead of tomorrow’s first anniversary of the night her blonde girl disappeared, Kate told The Sun: “It proves that people can go off the radar, doesn’t it? But they are still there – and you owe it to that person to keep looking. It gives you hope. It’s horrible to think of the length of time, but Elisabeth being found gives you hope.
“It could be today, it could be tomorrow, it could be next week. You just have to hold on to that hope.” http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/maddie/1116974/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-and-Gerry-given-new-hope-daughter-Maddie-is-still-alive-after-Elisabeth-Fritzl-rescue.html?teaser=true
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 10, 2016, 01:08:10 PM
True one wouldn't want that every day. But the word control is there in the sentence as well. And the opposite of control is out of control. I find I feel for her and I nearly cry along with her. I believe she is innocent to the nth degree.
Well said Rob.
Kate has demonstrated her honesty in a number of ways, the most obvious of which was telling the PJ about Madeleine telling them about having cried one of the nights; why hadn't they come. She had no need to be so honest... but she was. She is transparently honest. A fine woman.
Kate is, without doubt, innocent to the nth degree.
Well said Rob, a great many on here believe the same.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2016, 12:38:36 AM
Why is the proof that km is honest for reporting her kids cryng? Pass that by me again
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 12, 2016, 09:28:08 AM
Whatever happened to Madeleine her parents were undoubtedly traumatised. The question is are the experts able to judge what caused the trauma?
The Matthews case was different because the mother knew her child hadn't been harmed, so her 'trauma' was acted, not real.
I don't see how people suffering severe trauma could simultaneously also be able to maintain the composed 'presence of mind' that would be necessary to devise and carry out a plan to pull the wool over the eyes of trained experts - by hiding the true reasons for their trauma from them on a massive scale.
The idea that people could keep such cool, calculating heads on their shoulders whilst being in a state of mental trauma is a contradiction in terms IMO.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 09:41:32 AM
You interpret that as a method of controlling her temper? She doesn't say that though;
This quiet chant somehow kept me strong, kept me in control. This man did not deserve my respect. ‘F**k*ng t*ss*r . .
She didn't always manage control;
I felt like a caged, demented animal. This was, without doubt, torture of the cruellest kind. Finally, I erupted. I began to scream, swear and lash out. I kicked an extra bed that had been brought into the apartment and smashed the end right off it. [Madeleine]
Did you know that the father of Sarah Payne the child who was abducted and murdered, smashed his car up?
The thing is no one can imagine what it must feel like to have a child abducted and the helplessness and total anger and frustration a parent must feel, unable to help that child.
It doesn't mean that the parent is a violent parent it just means that in the feelings over power and they have to release it somehow, maybe others may smashl a few plates or punch a wall, Kate also hurt herself, I would imagine that would be a typical thing to do, punish yourself.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 09:46:57 AM
Why is the proof that km is honest for reporting her kids cryng? Pass that by me again
Well she obviously knew how that would be construed, nasty horrible woman leaving a child to cry. Yet, she still mentioned it because she wondered if it could be connected to the disappearance of Madeleine in some way, she handed herself over for abuse, with only the thought of helping to find Madeleine.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 09:47:56 AM
I think you may have illustrated something if you think she is "modelling" or "posing". I have friends who if they wore sackcloth would be drop dead gorgeous. Not because they are conventionally beautiful ... but because they have grace and style. Something which Kate McCann has in spades (apologies to all digging implements) https://englishhelponline.me/2011/02/27/idiom-to-have-something-in-spades/ and for some yet another 'reason' to be offended.
The pictures are from a photo-shoot accompanying an interview to highlight the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance which in my opinion must have been an occasion of great stress.
Hardly surprising that in every frame shot her whole body is screaming grief. Therefore I disagree that there is anything 'posed' or 'faux' about the resulting photographs apart from an initial awareness that there was a photographer there. Who if any good at his/her job would to all intents and purposes become 'invisible'.
MISSING Madeleine McCann’s mum told yesterday how the astonishing rescue of Austrian dungeon girl Elisabeth Fritzl has given her fresh hope that her daughter is still alive.
Kate, 40, said that hearing how Elisabeth was saved after 24 years imprisonment renewed her belief that little Maddie may also be held captive somewhere.
Speaking ahead of tomorrow’s first anniversary of the night her blonde girl disappeared, Kate told The Sun: “It proves that people can go off the radar, doesn’t it? But they are still there – and you owe it to that person to keep looking. It gives you hope. It’s horrible to think of the length of time, but Elisabeth being found gives you hope.
“It could be today, it could be tomorrow, it could be next week. You just have to hold on to that hope.” http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/maddie/1116974/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-and-Gerry-given-new-hope-daughter-Maddie-is-still-alive-after-Elisabeth-Fritzl-rescue.html?teaser=true
These are the operative words.
'...The pictures are from a photo-shoot...'
Orchestrated in the 'Diana pose'.
I'm sure Martin Bashir would recognize that.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:31:02 AM
Hello! ALL parents of missing children have photo shoots, to keep the public aware of a missing child. I doubt very much if they knew how to pose, the photographer probably helped.
Diana was probably helped.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:34:46 AM
Real distress ? Are there any ? Now if you'd asked for ear to ear grins shall we start with the puppet theatre ones, only a few weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, and work forward from there?
Oh for goodness sake, the photographer probably said something funny to make them smile for the photo, do you honestly believe they were smiling because they had lost their child?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 12, 2016, 10:37:35 AM
Hello! ALL parents of missing children have photo shoots, to keep the public aware of a missing child. I doubt very much if they knew how to pose, the photographer probably helped.
Diana was probably helped.
What's the correct way to look in a photo taken by a photographer for an article about your missing child I wonder? Perhaps a guide book should be written to help future parents in such situations from making the calamitous mistakes the McCanns did. Kate posing like Diana, big mistake Gerry looking...well, not nearly Diana-ish enough, big mistake. Perhaps paper bags on heads would have been more appropriate?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 10:39:45 AM
Hello! ALL parents of missing children have photo shoots, to keep the public aware of a missing child. I doubt very much if they knew how to pose, the photographer probably helped.
Diana was probably helped.
The public is and has been well aware of Madeleine's disappearance.
This photo shoot was part of a clear PR ploy on the Mccann's behalf.
Don't try to kid me otherwise.
It won't wash, unlike cuddlecat.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 10:40:22 AM
What's the correct way to look in a photo taken by a photographer for an article about your missing child I wonder? Perhaps a guide book should be written to help future parents in such situations from making the calamitous mistakes the McCanns did. Kate posing like Diana, big mistake Gerry looking...well, not nearly Diana-ish enough, big mistake. Perhaps paper bags on heads would have been more appropriate?
Perhaps without the use of a plasterer. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:45:26 AM
What's the correct way to look in a photo taken by a photographer for an article about your missing child I wonder? Perhaps a guide book should be written to help future parents in such situations from making the calamitous mistakes the McCanns did. Kate posing like Diana, big mistake Gerry looking...well, not nearly Diana-ish enough, big mistake. Perhaps paper bags on heads would have been more appropriate?
It's a load of nonsense Alfie, who can pose for a photograph when told to and look natural? Top that with the fact that they had lost a child and that is why they were being photographed. No doubt the photographer would have been telling them how to pose.
For god sake parents are shown and asked how to pose for wedding photo's !!!!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:47:19 AM
The public is and has been well aware of Madeleine's disappearance.
This photo shoot was part of a clear PR ploy on the Mccann's behalf.
Don't try to kid me otherwise.
It won't wash, unlike cuddlecat.
Photo shoot to keep the public aware of a missing child, they were obviously advised to do one.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:49:05 AM
Ben Needham's mother was told by a member of the public that she shouldn't be laughing when her child was missing, she had been laughing over a joke. I wonder what the public would have said if a photograph had been taken of her laughing?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 10:49:21 AM
Ben Needham's mother was told by a member of the public that she shouldn't be laughing when her child was missing, she had been laughing over a joke. I wonder what the public would have said if a photograph had been taken of her laughing?
The Mccanns have been caught laughing after interviews discussing the case.
Perhaps you take a look at the one following the BBC TV interview I posted the other day.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:51:45 AM
I read a book written by a journalist during the Shannon Matthews case, the journalists were asking her mother to pose with one of Shannon's favourite toys at first her mother refused then she came out and posed with a teddy belonging to Shannon.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:52:13 AM
The Mccanns have been caught laughing after interviews discussing the case.
Perhaps you take a look at the one following the BBC TV interview I posted the other day.
And?
The thing is Stephen you have no idea WHY they were laughing do you? You jump to conclusions. It could be it was nervous laughter glad it was over or a comment made by the interviewer.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 10:54:56 AM
The thing is Stephen you have no idea WHY they were laughing do you? You jump to conclusions. It could be it was nervous laughter glad it was over or a comment made by the interviewer.
You need to do a lot better than that.
They thought the filming had ended.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 10:58:22 AM
Kate has demonstrated her honesty in a number of ways, the most obvious of which was telling the PJ about Madeleine telling them about having cried one of the nights; why hadn't they come. She had no need to be so honest... but she was. She is transparently honest. A fine woman.
Kate is, without doubt, innocent to the nth degree.
Well said Rob, a great many on here believe the same.
Crying on TUE as Mrs. Fenn said not WED because a witness who stayed in next door that night heard nothing.
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.
1578 'On Wednesday evening'.
Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to''
Reply 'About half eight'.
1578 'About half eight''
Reply 'Mmm'.
1578 'And do you recall what time he returned''
Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights'.
1578 'Why was that''
Reply 'Cos they'd gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments'.
00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 12, 2016, 11:03:59 AM
Its a well known fact that if the parents of a missing child is ever seen laughing or smiling at any point after their child's disappearance then they dunnit.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2016, 11:13:01 AM
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2016, 11:50:24 AM
Hello! ALL parents of missing children have photo shoots, to keep the public aware of a missing child. I doubt very much if they knew how to pose, the photographer probably helped.
Diana was probably helped.
I don't think the photographer worked like that, Lace. I don't think anything was 'posed'. They are all action shots freezing a moment in time. Any photographers I have seen working in like circumstances shoot continuously as the subject is talking to end up with contact sheets running into hundreds some of which are used, the vast majority of which are discarded.
The anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance was upon them ~ and they had possibly already arranged the interview to keep that in the public eye.
It coincided with the blessed release of a woman who had been kept hidden in a cellar for twenty eight years. That event confirmed that it was possible to keep a human being hidden for many years in inhumane circumstances.
Kate and Gerry McCann didn't know what had become of Madeleine a year previously ~ but the mere thought of what her imprisonment might mean must have been imprinted on their minds in wide-screen glorious technicolor when considering what had happened to Elisabeth Fritzl. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/maddie/1116974/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-and-Gerry-given-new-hope-daughter-Maddie-is-still-alive-after-Elisabeth-Fritzl-rescue.html?teaser=true
There is no doubt in my mind of the genuine distress and anguish displayed in these photographs ... in which I think they are being very constrained and 'stiff upper lip' in getting their message about Madeleine out whatever it takes out of them.
Then the amateur detectives need something to keep themselves occupied ... I just cannot fathom why they think such negativity and ill will can possibly help Madeleine McCann?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2016, 01:05:08 PM
I don't see how people suffering severe trauma could simultaneously also be able to maintain the composed 'presence of mind' that would be necessary to devise and carry out a plan to pull the wool over the eyes of trained experts - by hiding the true reasons for their trauma from them on a massive scale.
The idea that people could keep such cool, calculating heads on their shoulders whilst being in a state of mental trauma is a contradiction in terms IMO.
I don't know which 'experts' would be looking for the reasons which caused any trauma they observed. The only person specifically interested in trauma was Alan Pike as far as I know. His job was to advise how to cope in the present and how to deal with the future.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2016, 01:31:17 PM
I don't think the photographer worked like that, Lace. I don't think anything was 'posed'. They are all action shots freezing a moment in time. Any photographers I have seen working in like circumstances shoot continuously as the subject is talking to end up with contact sheets running into hundreds some of which are used, the vast majority of which are discarded.
The anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance was upon them ~ and they had possibly already arranged the interview to keep that in the public eye.
It coincided with the blessed release of a woman who had been kept hidden in a cellar for twenty eight years. That event confirmed that it was possible to keep a human being hidden for many years in inhumane circumstances.
Kate and Gerry McCann didn't know what had become of Madeleine a year previously ~ but the mere thought of what her imprisonment might mean must have been imprinted on their minds in wide-screen glorious technicolor when considering what had happened to Elisabeth Fritzl. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/maddie/1116974/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-and-Gerry-given-new-hope-daughter-Maddie-is-still-alive-after-Elisabeth-Fritzl-rescue.html?teaser=true
There is no doubt in my mind of the genuine distress and anguish displayed in these photographs ... in which I think they are being very constrained and 'stiff upper lip' in getting their message about Madeleine out whatever it takes out of them.
Then the amateur detectives need something to keep themselves occupied ... I just cannot fathom why they think such negativity and ill will can possibly help Madeleine McCann?
The major error you and other Mccann supporters make in posts such as that, is the assumption that dislike or contempt for the parents, is automatically transferred to Madeleine, when the very opposite is the case.
Above all else people should take responsibility for their actions, and how your actions effect others. J.B. Priestly was all too aware of that and demonstrated more than amply in his classic novel , An Inspector Calls.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
The major error you and other Mccann supporters make in posts such as that, is the assumption that dislike or contempt for the parents, is automatically transferred to Madeleine, when the very opposite is the case.
Above all else people should take responsibility for their actions, and how your actions effect others. J.B. Priestly was all too aware of that and demonstrated more than amply in his classic novel , An Inspector Calls.
You are reading something into that post which was neither said ... nor was it implied. In my opinion that you think it was is entirely a matter for you and your conscience.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2016, 02:14:39 PM
I don't think the photographer worked like that, Lace. I don't think anything was 'posed'. They are all action shots freezing a moment in time. Any photographers I have seen working in like circumstances shoot continuously as the subject is talking to end up with contact sheets running into hundreds some of which are used, the vast majority of which are discarded.
The anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance was upon them ~ and they had possibly already arranged the interview to keep that in the public eye.
It coincided with the blessed release of a woman who had been kept hidden in a cellar for twenty eight years. That event confirmed that it was possible to keep a human being hidden for many years in inhumane circumstances.
Kate and Gerry McCann didn't know what had become of Madeleine a year previously ~ but the mere thought of what her imprisonment might mean must have been imprinted on their minds in wide-screen glorious technicolor when considering what had happened to Elisabeth Fritzl. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/maddie/1116974/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-Kate-and-Gerry-given-new-hope-daughter-Maddie-is-still-alive-after-Elisabeth-Fritzl-rescue.html?teaser=true
There is no doubt in my mind of the genuine distress and anguish displayed in these photographs ... in which I think they are being very constrained and 'stiff upper lip' in getting their message about Madeleine out whatever it takes out of them.
Then the amateur detectives need something to keep themselves occupied ... I just cannot fathom why they think such negativity and ill will can possibly help Madeleine McCann?
Some pictures were posed without a doubt, like the first one in this article;
You are reading something into that post which was neither said ... nor was it implied. In my opinion that you think it was is entirely a matter for you and your conscience.
What is plainly obvious Brietta, is the number of photographs the Mccanns posed for, either individually or together.
For people to employ PR reps, as they did so early on, implied directly they were having their 'public image' massaged, to garnish sympathy, such as the one G-Unit posted.
Whilst some people may believe they were done merely to advertise the disappearance of Madeleine, it is not the impression others would get.
Likewise, all the way since the onset of this case, photos of a young Madeleine have been published worldwide. At the start I could comprehend that, but not now.
I believe that she is dead, as do many other people. Some like you hope by some chance she might still be alive. So can you explain, if the latter was true, how continuous publication of the old photos helps in the 'search' ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 12, 2016, 03:34:18 PM
Loads of pics of Kerry Needham posing here and looking sad - should we sneer?
What is plainly obvious Brietta, is the number of photographs the Mccanns posed for, either individually or together.
For people to employ PR reps, as they did so early on, implied directly they were having their 'public image' massaged, to garnish sympathy, such as the one G-Unit posted.
Whilst some people may believe they were done merely to advertise the disappearance of Madeleine, it is not the impression others would get.
Likewise, all the way since the onset of this case, photos of a young Madeleine have been published worldwide. At the start I could comprehend that, but not now.
I believe that she is dead, as do many other people. Some like you hope by some chance she might still be alive. So can you explain, if the latter was true, how continuous publication of the old photos helps in the 'search' ?
Can you give me a link to photographs that were not in connection with Madeleine being missing and just taken to what you call garnish sympathy?
You are entitled to your opinion and so is everyone else. I will keep hoping Madeleine is still alive until it is proven otherwise.
There must be a reason for showing the old photo's as it seems old photo's are used for all missing children, take Ben Needham for instance, even though they may show a photo of what he may look like now they also show photo's of him how he looked when he went missing. It could perhaps jog a memory.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 12, 2016, 05:14:26 PM
I don't want to, it's not very pleasant behaviour, sneering at a mother's efforts to publicise her missing child in an effort to find him or her..
As well as having a missing child both women share the characteristic of shyness. It has been extremely difficult for both to push themselves to the forefront to keep their children in the public consciousness. Kate McCann has had the double edged sword of the benefits and drawbacks of the internet age; but Kerry Needham too found herself being excoriated for being seen laughing with her daughter.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2016, 06:22:25 PM
As well as having a missing child both women share the characteristic of shyness. It has been extremely difficult for both to push themselves to the forefront to keep their children in the public consciousness. Kate McCann has had the double edged sword of the benefits and drawbacks of the internet age; but Kerry Needham too found herself being excoriated for being seen laughing with her daughter.
I have seen Kate described as quieter than her husband, but he was pretty loud, confident and and very extroverted, like Madeleine and all his family. He told Jane Hill in an interview;
She's a complete, errm... she might look like Kate but in terms of personality she's much more of a McCann. She's very extroverted and lively, you know, vivacious, she's...
Bridget O'Donnell heard him from her balcony;
One man was the joker. He had a loud Glaswegian accent. He was Gerry McCann https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Russell said;
me and Jane are slightly more kind of err sort of reticent sort of people and certainly you know Gerry and to a lesser extent Kate are certainly more slightly more extrovert http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 13, 2016, 04:03:24 PM
It's a load of nonsense Alfie, who can pose for a photograph when told to and look natural? Top that with the fact that they had lost a child and that is why they were being photographed. No doubt the photographer would have been telling them how to pose.
For god sake parents are shown and asked how to pose for wedding photo's !!!!
For god sake parents are shown and asked how to pose for wedding photo's !!!!
FGS....what is your logic here ..................they wasn't posing for wedding photos ....or one for the album was they
did someone below.............. .tel them to smile/laugh to have that taken fgs
When you say "staged" ... do you mean ... 'not the done thing'? Everyone poses to one degree or another in front of a camera ~ is there any good reason why Kate McCann and Gerry McCann are singled out for opprobrium?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 13, 2016, 04:58:22 PM
When you say "staged" ... do you mean ... 'not the done thing'? Everyone poses to one degree or another in front of a camera ~ is there any good reason why Kate McCann and Gerry McCann are singled out for opprobrium?
what is your point ????????????
all i see in your post ...is a picture of G A .....in happier times ......[how is that staged ......and why would it be .....he has nothing to prove]
probably before the mccs .......ruined his life..............
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 13, 2016, 05:17:25 PM
When you say "staged" ... do you mean ... 'not the done thing'? Everyone poses to one degree or another in front of a camera ~ is there any good reason why Kate McCann and Gerry McCann are singled out for opprobrium?
@)(++(* Not staged at all that pic is it?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 13, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
that is what i thought alf...............but there again GA has nothing to prove
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 13, 2016, 06:31:50 PM
Not staged at all, the delightful couple just decided to have a PDA in front of the cameras to show the world how very much in lurve they were. Are. Were. Whatever.
Not staged at all, the delightful couple just decided to have a PDA in front of the cameras to show the world how very much in lurve they were. Are. Were. Whatever.
why should they have to be told how to have a picture taken.why should the photographer have to help
quote I doubt very much if they knew how to pose, the photographer probably helped.
posing on the other hand ..............is when it is staged...
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Photographer did say 'smile' when he took that photo.
You are not in touch with the real world xtina, I read a book about a journalist and how they go about getting photo's, they DO ask them to look a certain way, and in a photo shoot, there is no doubt they wanted them to pose in certain ways. Of course posing in a certain way is staged, how would you take photo's in a photo shoot if they weren't staged? If they wanted to have natural photo's then do it when the McCann's are not aware they are taking them, in a shoot they know they are taking them don't they? If photo's of the McCann's help to keep the name of Madeleine in the public eye then GREAT. If they are smiling then I doubt very much it is because their child is missing, anyone thinking that has a very strange mind.
I give a wedding as an example, I know they weren't posing for wedding photo's, I don't know why you had to say that, unless you didn't understand my post.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 07:45:14 AM
When you say "staged" ... do you mean ... 'not the done thing'? Everyone poses to one degree or another in front of a camera ~ is there any good reason why Kate McCann and Gerry McCann are singled out for opprobrium?
Exactly, ANYTHING the McCann's do is for a sinister reason to them. At least they were having their photo's taken for a reason, to keep the name of Madeleine McCann in the news, Amaral by the look of it is just posing for a 'look at me look at me' photo.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2016, 08:32:54 AM
Exactly, ANYTHING the McCann's do is for a sinister reason to them. At least they were having their photo's taken for a reason, to keep the name of Madeleine McCann in the news, Amaral by the look of it is just posing for a 'look at me look at me' photo.
Madeleine was in the news, and has been since she disappeared.
I wonder how many people are sick to death of seeing their images plastered across newspaper headlines.
As to those for Amaral posted on here, yes, they clearly could be regarded as posing for the camera.#
Any idea Lace of how many photos of the Mccanns are plastered over the ether ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 14, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
Exactly, ANYTHING the McCann's do is for a sinister reason to them. At least they were having their photo's taken for a reason, to keep the name of Madeleine McCann in the news, Amaral by the look of it is just posing for a 'look at me look at me' photo.
Weren't these photos taken and published in the PT media to show what a lovely cuddly loving husband Amaral was / is with a lovely supportive wife upon whom he had never laid a finger in anger?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2016, 09:12:05 AM
Weren't these photos taken and published in the PT media to show what a lovely cuddly loving husband Amaral was / is with a lovely supportive wife upon whom he had never laid a finger in anger?
What has Amaral's marriage got to do with this case ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 09:35:26 AM
Madeleine was in the news, and has been since she disappeared.
I wonder how many people are sick to death of seeing their images plastered across newspaper headlines.
As to those for Amaral posted on here, yes, they clearly could be regarded as posing for the camera.#
Any idea Lace of how many photos of the Mccanns are plastered over the ether ?
Yes Madeleine was in the news and still is and that is because the McCann's kept her there, all parents of missing children are encouraged to keep their child in the news, and I don't think the McCann's would care one bit whether you thought they were posing or not, their main objective was to keep Madeleine in the news and they did.
Any photograph that is taken when people are aware of it being taken is 'posing' for the camera.
I hope there are millions of photo's of the McCann's over the ether, the more the better, people are then reminded to look out for Madeleine, any objection to that?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 14, 2016, 09:40:31 AM
Yes Madeleine was in the news and still is and that is because the McCann's kept her there, all parents of missing children are encouraged to keep their child in the news, and I don't think the McCann's would care one bit whether you thought they were posing or not, their main objective was to keep Madeleine in the news and they did.
Any photograph that is taken when people are aware of it being taken is 'posing' for the camera.
I hope there are millions of photo's of the McCann's over the ether, the more the better, people are then reminded to look out for Madeleine, any objection to that?
Do you really think that seeing a picture of the McCanns prompts people to look for Madeleine, particularly when they have no idea of what she will look like ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2016, 09:41:21 AM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Photographer did say 'smile' when he took that photo.
You are not in touch with the real world xtina, I read a book about a journalist and how they go about getting photo's, they DO ask them to look a certain way, and in a photo shoot, there is no doubt they wanted them to pose in certain ways. Of course posing in a certain way is staged, how would you take photo's in a photo shoot if they weren't staged? If they wanted to have natural photo's then do it when the McCann's are not aware they are taking them, in a shoot they know they are taking them don't they? If photo's of the McCann's help to keep the name of Madeleine in the public eye then GREAT. If they are smiling then I doubt very much it is because their child is missing, anyone thinking that has a very strange mind.
I give a wedding as an example, I know they weren't posing for wedding photo's, I don't know why you had to say that, unless you didn't understand my post.
I don't live in the real world @)(++(*
are you really saying ..you have to pose and smile/laugh .........to let the world know how heartbroken you are at loosing your daughter
or look how well we are coping ....i think they do that lace ..all by themselves
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 14, 2016, 09:41:50 AM
Do you really think that seeing a picture of the McCanns prompts people to look for Madeleine, particularly when they have no idea of what she will look like ?
Do you think if the McCanns had gone to ground in September 2007 that anyone would even remember the child's name 10 years later?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2016, 09:49:04 AM
are you really saying ..you have to pose and smile/laugh .........to let the world know how heartbroken you are at loosing your daughter
or look how well we are coping ....i think they do that lace ..all by themselves
You think they were coping do you? You can tell that by looking at photo's on the internet can you? How many times do you hear people say about someone who has committed suicide 'oh I saw him/her the other day laughing and joking I had no idea'. You can tell NOTHING by photo's, but I don't suppose it will stop you.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 14, 2016, 09:54:56 AM
Amaral chose to pose with his wife and to reveal details about his private life to the media. He didn't have to and frankly no one would have been remotely interested in him if it had not been for the McCann story. But he had a story to sell and sell it he did, for his own personal gain, no other reason.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 09:57:12 AM
or his private life.......he is not the one who left his children to their fate
Then why put the photo out?
They didn't leave their children to their fate, they were checking on them and someone took one of them, you don't expect someone to go into your apartment and take your child.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2016, 10:18:27 AM
They didn't leave their children to their fate, they were checking on them and someone took one of them, you don't expect someone to go into your apartment and take your child.
They weren't checking on them.
Gerry Mccann went to the toilet.
As far as I am aware, Kate Mccann only went once to check on her children. Other people had been doing that before.
The children were left to their own fate.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2016, 10:24:06 AM
They didn't leave their children to their fate, they were checking on them and someone took one of them, you don't expect someone to go into your apartment and take your child.
Then why put the photo out
maybe the photographer ....told them to hug
You don't expect someone to go into your apartment and take your child.
no you leave your door unlocked.......you would just think they would take the valuables......
but as g mcc said .....no valuables were taken
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 10:26:15 AM
You don't expect someone to go into your apartment and take your child.
no you leave your door unlocked.......you would just think they would take the valuables......
but as g mcc said .....no valuables were taken
Gerry was probably asked if any valuables had been taken, use your common sense and stop trying to twist everything that is said. It is obvious to me that Madeleine was a much loved child.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 14, 2016, 10:37:42 AM
Amaral chose to pose with his wife and to reveal details about his private life to the media. He didn't have to and frankly no one would have been remotely interested in him if it had not been for the McCann story. But he had a story to sell and sell it he did, for his own personal gain, no other reason.
Is that a problem ? Its only money after all .
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2016, 10:40:05 AM
It seems to be a problem when the McCanns do it to raise money for the Fund, but not a problem when Amaral does it to line his own pockets. But it's only money after all, nothing important, no moral issues there to discuss, let's get back to finding odd sentences in Kate's book that prove she's scarcely human.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 14, 2016, 10:55:00 AM
It seems to be a problem when the McCanns do it to raise money for the Fund, but not a problem when Amaral does it to line his own pockets. But it's only money after all, nothing important, no moral issues there to discuss, let's get back to finding odd sentences in Kate's book that prove she's scarcely human.
I've no problem with McCann fundraising - if people are happy to give, why should I worry?
If they or indeed anyone is shown to acted criminally fraudulent, that is a matter for the courts.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2016, 11:13:55 AM
Gerry was probably asked if any valuables had been taken, use your common sense and stop trying to twist everything that is said. It is obvious to me that Madeleine was a much loved child.
I am not the one that twists everything babe
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
No? Well so far you have the McCann's laughing because their child is missing, leaving a door open to invite a predator inside and not thinking that Madeleine was valuable to her parents.
It's things like this that whip up hate for the McCann's.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
As far as I am aware, Kate Mccann only went once to check on her children. Other people had been doing that before.
The children were left to their own fate.
You contradicted yourself in that post, 'they weren't checking on them' you said, then went on to say Gerry went to the toilet, didn't he not say he was going to check on his children? The fact that others offered to help check on the McCann's children means nothing, they were checked on full stop.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: xtina on September 14, 2016, 11:41:19 AM
No? Well so far you have the McCann's laughing because their child is missing, leaving a door open to invite a predator inside and not thinking that Madeleine was valuable to her parents.
It's things like this that whip up hate for the McCann's.
I don't have to whip up anything .......they do a good job of that themselves
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 11:51:56 AM
You contradicted yourself in that post, 'they weren't checking on them' you said, then went on to say Gerry went to the toilet, didn't he not say he was going to check on his children? The fact that others offered to help check on the McCann's children means nothing, they were checked on full stop.
Most of the checks are not verified.
It is only known that each of the McCanns went once to the apartment during that week.
..... &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 01:38:50 PM
If we knew that, we could all go home. Your question is very childish though. Just because we don't know a criminal's identity does not mean they do not exist or that no crime was committed by them.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2016, 03:18:41 PM
If we knew that, we could all go home. Your question is very childish though. Just because we don't know a criminal's identity does not mean they do not exist or that no crime was committed by them.
This is true and seems to be the stumbling block with this case. Despite their efforts, at not inconsiderable cost, two police forces and three possibly four detective agencies have found no trace of a crime or a criminal.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 04:03:16 PM
It is a characteristic insult I have heard before from some of the McCann supporters.
It merely shows the weakness of their position, as they know well there is no evidence of abduction woth a damn.
....and we know without an abduction where the blame lies in this case.
Have you ever thought that perhaps SY after going through the files and interviewing people, they worked out the timeline and found it impossible that the McCann's could have hidden Madeleine's body in the time available to them? Something Amaral didn't do, he just had his theory, he didn't say how they were supposed to have cleaned up and hidden Madeleine's body all in the short time before the alarm was raised, that's because he couldn't.
SY have worked out the only possible conclusion is abduction.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2016, 04:40:58 PM
This is true and seems to be the stumbling block with this case. Despite their efforts, at not inconsiderable cost, two police forces and three possibly four detective agencies have found no trace of a crime or a criminal.
I don't think you are right, but maybe they don't have enough evidence to charge a very elite man backed by an esteemed global organisation, which has 'sold' itself very well?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 14, 2016, 04:57:39 PM
Have you ever thought that perhaps SY after going through the files and interviewing people, they worked out the timeline and found it impossible that the McCann's could have hidden Madeleine's body in the time available to them? Something Amaral didn't do, he just had his theory, he didn't say how they were supposed to have cleaned up and hidden Madeleine's body all in the short time before the alarm was raised, that's because he couldn't.
SY have worked out the only possible conclusion is abduction.
He should have had a reconstruction.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 14, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
Have you ever thought that perhaps SY after going through the files and interviewing people, they worked out the timeline and found it impossible that the McCann's could have hidden Madeleine's body in the time available to them? Something Amaral didn't do, he just had his theory, he didn't say how they were supposed to have cleaned up and hidden Madeleine's body all in the short time before the alarm was raised, that's because he couldn't.
SY have worked out the only possible conclusion is abduction.
Or they are completely wrong.
Maybe that is why they have found nothing as regards abduction.
You cannot find what does not exist.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 14, 2016, 05:14:22 PM
Do you really think that seeing a picture of the McCanns prompts people to look for Madeleine, particularly when they have no idea of what she will look like ?
It would remind people of the case and maybe people would be more aware. For instance if a child lives in their vicinity who is 13 years old has a fleck in her eye and resembles the photo of Madeleine aged 9, even if she is supposed to be 9 in that photo I doubt if her features would have changed dramatically.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2016, 07:36:55 PM
Why I said "all options except parental involvement must be on the table" was that they have been thoroughly examined already. Do you think they still need more scrutiny?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 14, 2016, 09:11:32 PM
Why I said "all options except parental involvement must be on the table" was that they have been thoroughly examined already. Do you think they still need more scrutiny?
As no one except those involved knows what happened it would be silly to put any area out of bounds for investigation.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 14, 2016, 10:20:34 PM
As no one except those involved knows what happened it would be silly to put any area out of bounds for investigation.
What would be silly is to keep on suspecting someone who has been thoroughly investigated and for whom there is no evidence nor any opportunity for them to have committed the crime, or do you think Murat for example should still be in the frame?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Lace on September 15, 2016, 09:14:44 AM
Since the cause of her disappearance is unknown, then how do you rule out all the logical possibilities.
I think experienced detectives would know what they were doing, if they have gone over the statements and interviewed again, then they would be able to see where each person was during the time Madeleine would have disappeared, and therefore ruling them out.
Amaral says Gerry was in the Tapas Bar during the time of the Smith sighting, then he goes on to say Martin Smith was 60/80% sure the man could have been Gerry, BY THE WAY HE HELD THE CHILD!!! Now if SY have found that Gerry was indeed in the Tapas Bar Dianne Webster said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry' so that means he was sitting at the table when Kate give her alert and also a waiter saw Gerry searching around the pool area not long after the alert, then that would rule Gerry out, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2016, 09:26:27 AM
If an investigation comes to an end with no solution, then the only course of action, if you want to get to the bottom of it, is the revisit old ground.
I'd prefer to go over new ground. Like looking at the safety of the balustrades? Whether there were people looking for Madeleine prior to Kate's alert? Whether there were earlier phone calls to the police? What were the OC staff doing in the kid's bedrooms? Find out what Matt was doing in the adult bedroom? Are all the children other than Madeleine accounted for?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 15, 2016, 03:15:02 PM
The topic is 'pick any sentence from Kate's book'.
Off topic posts will get deleted.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2016, 07:37:26 PM
“Words cannot describe the anguish and despair we are feeling as parents of our beautiful daughter Madeleine.”
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2016, 07:41:52 PM
I think she is being looked after by someone. So she is either in a home, a house, a part of a family or a convent or something like that. I don't think it is like a dungeon, she is is not a prisoner. So it is as simple as someone owning up and explaining why they did this. How they were justified.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2016, 08:35:47 AM
I think she is being looked after by someone. So she is either in a home, a house, a part of a family or a convent or something like that. I don't think it is like a dungeon, she is is not a prisoner. So it is as simple as someone owning up and explaining why they did this. How they were justified.
..and what evidence to you base this on ?
Bearing in miond, of course, there has not been one sign of her since that dreadful day she disappeared.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2016, 08:45:32 AM
"Please, if you have Madeleine, let her come back to mummy, daddy and her brother and sister." Gerry McCann
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2016, 08:47:59 AM
Yes, my last dream on the case was just a continual repetition of the words "Just rest, have faith". But it is hard to think I have done enough but maybe I have, but I have trouble believing it myself.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 16, 2016, 01:35:25 PM
Yes, my last dream on the case was just a continual repetition of the words "Just rest, have faith". But it is hard to think I have done enough but maybe I have, but I have trouble believing it myself.
You should be so lucky!. Mine [dreams that is] are perpetually about seven fat cows followed by seven thin cows 8(0(*
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2016, 01:41:57 PM
Premonitions, prayer and revelation following my determined effort to solve this case.
The problem you have is huge gaps in your knowledge of the case. The first step should be getting the sequence of events and facts into your mind, then going from there. Premonitions, prayer and revelations never solved any criminal case as far as I know.
Police officers sometimes have moments of serendipity, such as that by an officer in the terrible case of the murder of a priest by Patrick Mackay in the 1970's. They were clueless until the officer remembered Mackay stealing from the priest 18 months earlier. They found him, questioned him and he confessed. The policeman knew his job, his 'patch' and had a good memory for facts, though. His hunch was the result of all that. Mackay is still serving his 'full life' sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Mackay
I have a favourite bit from Kate's book. Gerry's uncle visits and collapses with a heart attack. Gerry phones for help, the man delivering the Chinese meal rings the doorbell and;
Amid the pandemonium, Madeleine appeared, pushing her Early Learning Centre medical trolley, placed her toy stethoscope on Uncle Pat’s chest and said, ‘Boom, boom!’ Talk about surreal. [Madeleine]
A glimse of the real child who disappeared and the type of story that becomes part of family history.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: John on September 17, 2016, 01:02:05 PM
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2016, 03:03:40 PM
I was surprised to work out how quickly Kate began her quest for a second child after Madeleine. The twins were born on 1st February 2005 at 39 weeks, so pretty much full term.
Kate says the first step was a visit to her Amsterdam GP in the spring. A month later she saw a specialist and six weeks later the IVF cycle began. That takes four to six weeks, ending in implantation. [Madeleine]
Implantation must have taken place in early May as the twins were almost full term. The cycle must have begun in early April at the latest then. The specialist was seen six weeks earlier, so late February. Her GP appointment must have been in late January then, shortly after their arrival in Amsterdam?
As far as I know the earliest date for Spring to begin is on 1st March.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 17, 2016, 03:26:59 PM
I was surprised to work out how quickly Kate began her quest for a second child after Madeleine. The twins were born on 1st February 2005 at 39 weeks, so pretty much full term.
Kate says the first step was a visit to her Amsterdam GP in the spring. A month later she saw a specialist and six weeks later the IVF cycle began. That takes four to six weeks, ending in implantation. [Madeleine]
Implantation must have taken place in early May as the twins were almost full term. The cycle must have begun in early April at the latest then. The specialist was seen six weeks earlier, so late February. Her GP appointment must have been in late January then, shortly after their arrival in Amsterdam?
As far as I know the earliest date for Spring to begin is on 1st March.
Do you ever stop and ask yourself why you are bothering to work out these things? Do you think the above is in any way relevant to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? If anything is surprising it's the way people pore over the minutiae of the McCanns lives looking for new angles.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2016, 03:55:34 PM
Do you ever stop and ask yourself why you are bothering to work out these things? Do you think the above is in any way relevant to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? If anything is surprising it's the way people pore over the minutiae of the McCanns lives looking for new angles.
I don't need to. In my case these sort of things carry an element of mental arithmetic for which I have a penchant; like I can do curly dees in me 'ead No What is the point of this forum then?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 17, 2016, 04:11:40 PM
I guess it helps to pass the time between more major events 8)-)))
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
I guess it helps to pass the time between more major events 8)-)))
Yeah! The salmon and trout seasons are all but over and after the Giro Lombardia later this month there will be nothing of real interest in the road racing world until Paris-Nice next printemps as they say. I guess I'll join Yogi and set my clock for half past February.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2016, 05:05:04 PM
Do you ever stop and ask yourself why you are bothering to work out these things? Do you think the above is in any way relevant to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? If anything is surprising it's the way people pore over the minutiae of the McCanns lives looking for new angles.
Have you ever asked yourself why Kate seems not to have worked out those details herself? According to her own words she, like me, was concerned with, and good at, detail;
Gerry has always scoffed at my perfectionist tendencies and attention to detail, [Madeleine]
Were I in her shoes and wrote a book knowing it would be scrutinised it would have been thoroughly checked for any anomalies.
There are different types of people; some prefer broad brush strokes, others detailed work. Each to his own, I say. Not many switch between the two.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2016, 05:17:42 PM
Yeah! The salmon and trout seasons are all but over and after the Giro Lombardia later this month there will be nothing of real interest in the road racing world until Paris-Nice next printemps as they say. I guess I'll join Yogi and set my clock for half past February.... ?{)(**
I, like a certain couple, like tennis. Well done to the Murrays who've just won their doubles match in the Davis Cup!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 17, 2016, 05:48:59 PM
Have you ever asked yourself why Kate seems not to have worked out those details herself? According to her own words she, like me, was concerned with, and good at, detail;
Gerry has always scoffed at my perfectionist tendencies and attention to detail, [Madeleine]
Were I in her shoes and wrote a book knowing it would be scrutinised it would have been thoroughly checked for any anomalies.
There are different types of people; some prefer broad brush strokes, others detailed work. Each to his own, I say. Not many switch between the two.
Sorry, what details are you professing to know better than Kate herself? When she got pregnant and had her children? well done you for putting in the detailed work, I'm sure we're all eternally grateful for the effort and the insight that this sheds on the case.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
Sorry, what details are you professing to know better than Kate herself? When she got pregnant and had her children? well done you for putting in the detailed work, I'm sure we're all eternally grateful for the effort and the insight that this sheds on the case.
I'm used to you pouring scorn on my posts, but the personal abuse is getting a bit boring now. You clearly didn't read my post properly or you'd have a clearer idea what it was about. Please note my posts are not intended to enlighten you so feel free to ignore them.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 17, 2016, 06:15:23 PM
I'm used to you pouring scorn on my posts, but the personal abuse is getting a bit boring now. You clearly didn't read my post properly or you'd have a clearer idea what it was about. Please note my posts are not intended to enlighten you so feel free to ignore them.
Your post was absolutely perfect for this thread actually so many thanks for that. Find a part of Kate's book that hasn't already had holes picked in it and see if you can find some "strange" anomaly that adds to the notion that Kate is unreliable at best, or a bloody great fibber at worst. I applaud your contribution, no really I do.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 07:09:54 PM
The problem you have is huge gaps in your knowledge of the case. The first step should be getting the sequence of events and facts into your mind, then going from there. Premonitions, prayer and revelations never solved any criminal case as far as I know.
Police officers sometimes have moments of serendipity, such as that by an officer in the terrible case of the murder of a priest by Patrick Mackay in the 1970's. They were clueless until the officer remembered Mackay stealing from the priest 18 months earlier. They found him, questioned him and he confessed. The policeman knew his job, his 'patch' and had a good memory for facts, though. His hunch was the result of all that. Mackay is still serving his 'full life' sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Mackay
I have a favourite bit from Kate's book. Gerry's uncle visits and collapses with a heart attack. Gerry phones for help, the man delivering the Chinese meal rings the doorbell and;
Amid the pandemonium, Madeleine appeared, pushing her Early Learning Centre medical trolley, placed her toy stethoscope on Uncle Pat’s chest and said, ‘Boom, boom!’ Talk about surreal. [Madeleine]
A glimse of the real child who disappeared and the type of story that becomes part of family history.
Would you be able to tell me what page or chapter that was in please?
Page 52 in the Chapter "Family of Five"
Whether I'm a freak of nature I'm not sure but I have "solved" a case in NZ, but it took me more than 10 years of research as well as the dreams from the Lord. So it isn't easy and in fact the solution has not yet been accepted by anyone so the guy still remains in prison, but the drama still goes on.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 07:44:54 PM
Do you want me to get booted off here? Think of all the things I've said and all the threads that have been deleted? (Maybe it wasn't done by you but someone has deleted it all, did you miss them?)
From dreams very little. Mix up in hospital. (Two very similar children) Catholic brothers involved (the Charity collectors, Ibiza Airport, Smithman connection) Medical patient confidentiality used to keep it quiet. (the non-disclosure of what happened to the patient)
I've used no names so I hope it passes the libel test.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
Do you want me to get booted off here? Think of all the things I've said and all the threads that have been deleted? (Maybe it wasn't done by you but someone has deleted it all, did you miss them?)
From dreams very little. Mix up in hospital. (Two very similar children) Catholic brothers involved (the Charity collectors, Ibiza Airport, Smithman connection) Medical patient confidentiality used to keep it quiet. (the non-disclosure of what happened to the patient)
I've used no names so I hope it passes the libel test.
I'm not a Mod, so no powers of deletion.
As to the rest, supposition.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 17, 2016, 07:49:32 PM
Would you be able to tell me what page or chapter that was in please?
Page 52 in the Chapter "Family of Five"
Whether I'm a freak of nature I'm not sure but I have "solved" a case in NZ, but it took me more than 10 years of research as well as the dreams from the Lord. So it isn't easy and in fact the solution has not yet been accepted by anyone so the guy still remains in prison, but the drama still goes on.
Careful, you're getting into the realms of fantasy, now.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 08:00:57 PM
But whatever I have "discovered" I passed on to SY and suggested easy tests to check it out. So what is supposition to you can be checked if they so wish.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 08:03:09 PM
Would you be able to tell me what page or chapter that was in please?
Page 52 in the Chapter "Family of Five"
Whether I'm a freak of nature I'm not sure but I have "solved" a case in NZ, but it took me more than 10 years of research as well as the dreams from the Lord. So it isn't easy and in fact the solution has not yet been accepted by anyone so the guy still remains in prison, but the drama still goes on.
It sounds like your 'solution' hasn't made any difference in the real world then? I respect other's beliefs but I have to say I'm unlikely to be persuaded by anything claimed to have been sent by God in a dream. I prefer facts which can be seen, examined and evaluated by all.
Is your favourite quote from Kate's book related to her religious faith?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2016, 08:22:54 PM
But whatever I have "discovered" I passed on to SY and suggested easy tests to check it out. So what is supposition to you can be checked if they so wish.
I would suggest, quite a few people have offered SY their advice/help.
It doesn't mean they act on it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 08:24:17 PM
It sounds like your 'solution' hasn't made any difference in the real world then? I respect other's beliefs but I have to say I'm unlikely to be persuaded by anything claimed to have been sent by God in a dream. I prefer facts which can be seen, examined and evaluated by all.
Is your favourite quote from Kate's book related to her religious faith?
In the first few chapters she talks about her experience in NZ, I felt close to her after that. I'm not sure if I have a favorite quote.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
For some time we have been told, they have 1 remaining avenue of 'interest'.
I'd tell them to read this forum, the particular thread with the information, and there was a surge of visitors to the site (guests). So I tend to think some of our guests are from SY. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2016, 08:55:25 PM
I'd tell them to read this forum, the particular thread with the information, and there was a surge of visitors to the site (guests). So I tend to think some of our guests are from SY. I could be wrong.
Why would anyone on here have access to info SY hasn't already got ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 08:58:40 PM
Do you want me to get booted off here? Think of all the things I've said and all the threads that have been deleted? (Maybe it wasn't done by you but someone has deleted it all, did you miss them?)
From dreams very little. Mix up in hospital. (Two very similar children) Catholic brothers involved (the Charity collectors, Ibiza Airport, Smithman connection) Medical patient confidentiality used to keep it quiet. (the non-disclosure of what happened to the patient)
I've used no names so I hope it passes the libel test.
I notice that you are still having posts deleted because they breach our rules. You do realise that if you continue to post theories and not stick to the facts that there will be consequences?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Admin on September 17, 2016, 09:04:11 PM
These words are a quote from Kate, maybe they are in her book too: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7590.msg355201#msg355201
Quote
In February, Madeleine's mother told how she believes her daughter is still in the Algarve because her kidnapper did not take her "a million miles" from their holiday apartment.
A million miles is somewhere out near Mars isn't it? The thought of that is quite funny.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 10:22:03 PM
Quote
Dear God. Please bless and protect our Madeleine wherever she is. Please give us and our families the strength to get through this. Please give the police the wisdom, intelligence and honesty to solve this crime and find Madeleine. Amen x
page 274
When she prays for the police to solve the crime, one can't imagine she feels guilty and praying at the same time. Well I can't. She is asking for the answer to to come from the Lord, so maybe it will. Yet at the end of the book she deals with some of the nutters. I'm not sure if she would class me as a nutter or not.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 10:47:46 PM
Quote
Gerry has certainly struggled over the last couple of years with his faith. While he still believes in God, he is no longer convinced of the power of prayer. In his words, "If prayer worked, we would've had Madeleine back a long time ago".
Madeleine Page 445 Now that is being honest I'd say. It is not easy to comprehend I must admit.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 11:00:24 PM
Quote
"It is said that God only gives you a cross He knows you can bare. Well I'm afraid this cross has been far too heavy for far too long."
I bet she was crying when she wrote that sentence.
Well don't fear Kate Robittybob's working on it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 17, 2016, 11:12:08 PM
When she prays for the police to solve the crime, one can't imagine she feels guilty and praying at the same time. Well I can't. She is asking for the answer to to come from the Lord, so maybe it will. Yet at the end of the book she deals with some of the nutters. I'm not sure if she would class me as a nutter or not.
Hmm... &%+((£. To be perfectly frank I think she'd probably class us all as nutters, some maybe nuttier than others.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2016, 11:22:25 PM
Hmm... &%+((£. To be perfectly frank I think she'd probably class us all as nutters, some maybe nuttier than others.
What amazed a lot of people was that Kate's mother has remained a member of my FaceBook group discussing the case. So I wonder if Susan has told Kate about me yet?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 18, 2016, 12:13:27 AM
In my way of thinking if "it has been solved" they don't really need any more evidence, so I don't understand your comment Sadie.
In order to prosecute a very elite man with a globally well respected organisation behind him, they need substantial undeniable evidence.
I believe Madeleine was abducted to order. That the master abductor commissioned others to do his dirty work. Very probably the actual physical abductors do not even know who the master is.
I believe Madeleine was abducted and taken up to Porto in at least three different stages. Each stage only having contact with the stage above and below them.
I believe that SY have some very strong reasons for thinking they know the master abductor.
Maybe they also know the actual physical abductors, but have they found the people in between? Difficult to prove anything without them
Everything compartmentalized so the bottom guys have no idea who the top guy is.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 07:43:27 AM
In order to prosecute a very elite man with a globally well respected organisation behind him, they need substantial undeniable evidence.
I believe Madeleine was abducted to order. That the master abductor commissioned others to do his dirty work. Very probably the actual physical abductors do not even know who the master is.
I believe Madeleine was abducted and taken up to Porto in at least three different stages. Each stage only having contact with the stage above and below them.
I believe that SY have some very strong reasons for thinking they know the master abductor.
Maybe they also know the actual physical abductors, but have they found the people in between? Difficult to prove anything without them
Everything compartmentalized so the bottom guys have no idea who the top guy is.
Where's the evidence for all this ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 07:59:10 AM
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 08:12:15 AM
Quote
"I've always been considered quite a gentle person but these attacks stirred up terrible emotions in me. It was if my whole body was trying to scream but a tightly screwed on lid was preventing the scream from escaping. Instead I was just howling internally. My punch bag certainly came in handy at times.
Madeleine by Kate McCann page 414. I laughed when I read the punchline!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 08:15:53 AM
Any attempt to put all of the findings into some theory is worthy of respect. That is why I don't spend time pulling Amaral down for he came up with the best theory with what he knew. I respect him for that but he was still wrong.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 08:21:54 AM
That particular paragraph was dedicated to Goncalo Amaral and his documentary.
There would be no documentary but for what the mccanns did.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2016, 09:30:33 AM
Any further Posts containing Insults and Goading will be removed In Full.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 10:27:33 AM
Amaral begins to appear on Portuguese TV, giving his views on the case;
With the best will in the world, it is hard for anyone to absorb this stuff day in, day out and remain completely objective, especially when it is never challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint....It was utterly frustrating that there didn’t seem to be anybody in Portugal prepared to stand up against this man. Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority who could see through these offensive allegations. Why were they all staying quiet?.... [Madeleine]
Kate seems incapable of noticing that the very same thing has happened in the UK, but in reverse. She and her husband have been able to give their version of events and it has rarely been challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint.
Even so, not everyone in the UK has believed them, so it can't be assumed that everyone in Portugal believed Amaral.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2016, 10:34:03 AM
Amaral begins to appear on Portuguese TV, giving his views on the case;
With the best will in the world, it is hard for anyone to absorb this stuff day in, day out and remain completely objective, especially when it is never challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint....It was utterly frustrating that there didn’t seem to be anybody in Portugal prepared to stand up against this man. Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority who could see through these offensive allegations. Why were they all staying quiet?.... [Madeleine]
Kate seems incapable of noticing that the very same thing has happened in the UK, but in reverse. She and her husband have been able to give their version of events and it has rarely been challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint.
Even so, not everyone in the UK has believed them, so it can't be assumed that everyone in Portugal believed Amaral.
There are Portuguese citizens who don't believe Amaral.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 10:38:01 AM
There are Portuguese citizens who don't believe Amaral.
Of course, that's what I thought I was saying. Kate seemed to be saying that people in Portugal were being persuaded by Amaral's TV appearances, but that's an assumption too far imo. It's also something they failed to prove during the damages trial.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2016, 10:43:38 AM
Of course, that's what I thought I was saying. Kate seemed to be saying that people in Portugal were being persuaded by Amaral's TV appearances, but that's an assumption too far imo. It's also something they failed to prove during the damages trial.
I have no doubt that a large number Portuguese Citizens were persuaded by Amaral's Television Appearances. But then I always have thought that they did more damage than his book.
Kate responded by writing her own book.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2016, 10:50:04 AM
Any attempt to put all of the findings into some theory is worthy of respect. That is why I don't spend time pulling Amaral down for he came up with the best theory with what he knew. I respect him for that but he was still wrong.
Only if backed up by hard evidence. This forum operates on the basis of established facts, theories basis on personal hunches and opinion are positively discouraged.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 11:03:10 AM
Only if backed up by hard evidence. This forum operates on the basis of established facts, theories basis on personal hunches and opinion are positively discouraged.
Usually those ones are quickly found to have flaws in them.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 11:33:57 AM
Amaral begins to appear on Portuguese TV, giving his views on the case;
With the best will in the world, it is hard for anyone to absorb this stuff day in, day out and remain completely objective, especially when it is never challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint....It was utterly frustrating that there didn’t seem to be anybody in Portugal prepared to stand up against this man. Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority who could see through these offensive allegations. Why were they all staying quiet?.... [Madeleine]
Kate seems incapable of noticing that the very same thing has happened in the UK, but in reverse. She and her husband have been able to give their version of events and it has rarely been challenged or balanced by an alternative viewpoint.
Even so, not everyone in the UK has believed them, so it can't be assumed that everyone in Portugal believed Amaral.
Perhaps that's because in England it is not considered the "done thing" to publicly challenge the innocence of individuals and accuse them via the media of hiding their child's body and setting up a fraudulent fund...? Do you really think that when the McCanns appear on chat shows or Crimewatch in this country that their interviewers should start challenging their innocence and picking holes in their account of events, accusing them of smiling inappropriately, of discrepancies in their account, etc - cross questioning them basically? Would that be fair and justifiable in your view? Whereas if an ex-cop appears on telly promoting a book in which he publicly accuses someone of a heinous crime why on earth WOULDN'T he be challenged by any interviewer worth their salt? It is only his opinion and abilities as a writer / investigator that are being challenged, he's not being accused of a heinous crime against his own child!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2016, 11:59:49 AM
Perhaps that's because in England it is not considered the "done thing" to publicly challenge the innocence of individuals and accuse them via the media of hiding their child's body and setting up a fraudulent fund...? Do you really think that when the McCanns appear on chat shows or Crimewatch in this country that their interviewers should start challenging their innocence and picking holes in their account of events, accusing them of smiling inappropriately, of discrepancies in their account, etc - cross questioning them basically? Would that be fair and justifiable in your view? Whereas if an ex-cop appears on telly promoting a book in which he publicly accuses someone of a heinous crime why on earth WOULDN'T he be challenged by any interviewer worth their salt? It is only his opinion and abilities as a writer / investigator that are being challenged, he's not being accused of a heinous crime against his own child!
Good post, Alfie.
It's the easiest thing in the world to accuse without basis or foundation: the hardest to stand up against those accusations when you know they are without basis or foundation.
Interminable 'debates' about whether they entered (or exited) the apartment (through 'front' door or 'back' door, when it isn't even clear, in context, which is 'front' or 'back') really clarify nothing.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 18, 2016, 12:10:00 PM
LOL it's so easy for some to be sceptics. Anything that doesn't suit - just question it's veracity. Anything which does suit - then it's written in stone.
You can make a case against anyone about anything using those tactics.
Incidentally Amaral wasn't there either - and as he never once met or spoke to Kate - and only once briefly met Gerry - then everything thereafter came to him second-hand - and never from his own first hand personal experience of them. A crucial point - but one which he studiously avoids mentioning in his book. In fact quite the opposite impression is given to his readers both in his book and also in TV interviews.
From Kate's book:-
And so it was that on 11 December 2009 I first laid eyes on Sr. Goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me. It is extraordinary that could had said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met. unquote.
That was the perception according to Kate McCann but very naive if I might say so. Amaral would have observed both parents at an early stage, he had no need to 'meet' them, that was the job of his detectives and liaison officers.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 18, 2016, 12:12:23 PM
It's the easiest thing in the world to accuse without basis or foundation: the hardest to stand up against those accusations when you know they are without basis or foundation.
Interminable 'debates' about whether they entered (or exited) the apartment (through 'front' door or 'back' door, when it isn't even clear, in context, which is 'front' or 'back') really clarify nothing.
On the contrary, it is very easy to accuse when things just don't add up.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 12:14:21 PM
Perhaps that's because in England it is not considered the "done thing" to publicly challenge the innocence of individuals and accuse them via the media of hiding their child's body and setting up a fraudulent fund...? Do you really think that when the McCanns appear on chat shows or Crimewatch in this country that their interviewers should start challenging their innocence and picking holes in their account of events, accusing them of smiling inappropriately, of discrepancies in their account, etc - cross questioning them basically? Would that be fair and justifiable in your view? Whereas if an ex-cop appears on telly promoting a book in which he publicly accuses someone of a heinous crime why on earth WOULDN'T he be challenged by any interviewer worth their salt? It is only his opinion and abilities as a writer / investigator that are being challenged, he's not being accused of a heinous crime against his own child!
I have given no opinion on which questions either party should have been asked or why neither party was challenged.
My point was that both party's gave their version to the media in their own country and neither was questioned or challenged.
As I don't know which party [if any] was giving the correct version, the outrage of one party seems to be a case of goose and gander.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 12:21:50 PM
I have given no opinion on which questions either party should have been asked or why neither party was challenged.
My point was that both party's gave their version to the media in their own country and neither was questioned or challenged.
As I don't know which party [if any] was giving the correct version, the outrage of one party seems to be a case of goose and gander.
Firstly it may have escaped your notice that the McCanns had to endure months of media coverage questioning their version of events in their own country. Secondly, one party has clearly been wronged, and therefore one party is clearly going to be justifiably outraged. The only thing we differ on is which party has been wronged.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2016, 12:34:25 PM
Perhaps that's because in England it is not considered the "done thing" to publicly challenge the innocence of individuals and accuse them via the media of hiding their child's body and setting up a fraudulent fund...? Do you really think that when the McCanns appear on chat shows or Crimewatch in this country that their interviewers should start challenging their innocence and picking holes in their account of events, accusing them of smiling inappropriately, of discrepancies in their account, etc - cross questioning them basically? Would that be fair and justifiable in your view? Whereas if an ex-cop appears on telly promoting a book in which he publicly accuses someone of a heinous crime why on earth WOULDN'T he be challenged by any interviewer worth their salt? It is only his opinion and abilities as a writer / investigator that are being challenged, he's not being accused of a heinous crime against his own child!
As a principle that does not stand up to scrutiny. I doubt Chris Jeffries would agree with your statement. In fact au contra ire, it is normal practice in the UK; the Brits love it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 12:43:26 PM
LOL it's so easy for some to be sceptics. Anything that doesn't suit - just question it's veracity. Anything which does suit - then it's written in stone.
You can make a case against anyone about anything using those tactics.
Incidentally Amaral wasn't there either - and as he never once met or spoke to Kate - and only once briefly met Gerry - then everything thereafter came to him second-hand - and never from his own first hand personal experience of them. A crucial point - but one which he studiously avoids mentioning in his book. In fact quite the opposite impression is given to his readers both in his book and also in TV interviews.
From Kate's book:-
And so it was that on 11 December 2009 I first laid eyes on Sr. Goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me. It is extraordinary that could had said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met. unquote.
So you believe KM without question ?
What of KM's views on Amaral and other police officers ?
and we know about her temper....................
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 12:44:39 PM
LOL it's so easy for some to be sceptics. Anything that doesn't suit - just question it's veracity. Anything which does suit - then it's written in stone.
You can make a case against anyone about anything using those tactics.
Incidentally Amaral wasn't there either - and as he never once met or spoke to Kate - and only once briefly met Gerry - then everything thereafter came to him second-hand - and never from his own first hand personal experience of them. A crucial point - but one which he studiously avoids mentioning in his book. In fact quite the opposite impression is given to his readers both in his book and also in TV interviews.
From Kate's book:-
And so it was that on 11 December 2009 I first laid eyes on Sr. Goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me. It is extraordinary that could had said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met. unquote.
LOL! It's equally easy to be a supporter. Anything that doesn't suit - just question it's veracity; statements which contradict the group's statements, interpreter's credentials and skills, amateur translator's motives, the nature of 'listening services', the integrity of a dog handler, the scents a cadaver dog alerts to, the nature of what constitutes 'neglect', the skills of Portuguese investigators.
Anything which does suit; certain parts of the otherwise unreliable files, reports showing unsuccessful work by cadaver dogs, the success of 'listening services' in other resorts, anything said by the arguidos, the superiority, integrity and skill of UK police forces is set in stone.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 18, 2016, 01:04:03 PM
There are many aspects of this case which are concerning to say the least. The attempts to pervert the course of justice are well documented.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 01:21:52 PM
That was the perception according to Kate McCann but very naive if I might say so. Amaral would have observed both parents at an early stage, he had no need to 'meet' them, that was the job of his detectives and liaison officers.
If you don't mind my saying so, Angelo
What a ridiculous statement !!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 01:56:52 PM
There are many aspects of this case which are concerning to say the least. The attempts to pervert the course of justice are well documented.
Attempting to pervert the course of justice is a serious criminal matter and one which can result in charges and if found guilty imprisonment. Who are you accusing of perverting the course of justice and what is your evidence for your claim?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 18, 2016, 02:42:41 PM
Is it ridiculous because you don't like it? Amaral was in charge of the case and saw the McCanns on the news from day 1. The McCanns did not know Amaral and would not have recognised him even if they saw him.
Amaral would have been there observing while the McCanns were questioned, the McCanns would not have known that.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 18, 2016, 02:50:15 PM
Attempting to pervert the course of justice is a serious criminal matter and one which can result in charges and if found guilty imprisonment. Who are you accusing of perverting the course of justice and what is your evidence for your claim?
I know the facts Alf, I suggest you do a bit of research too. Alternatively you could await Amaral's next book and read all about it?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 18, 2016, 03:00:39 PM
Is it ridiculous because you don't like it? Amaral was in charge of the case and saw the McCanns on the news from day 1. The McCanns did not know Amaral and would not have recognised him even if they saw him.
Amaral would have been there observing while the McCanns were questioned, the McCanns would not have known that.
So you KNOW that do you?
HOW ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 03:05:31 PM
Only if backed up by hard evidence. This forum operates on the basis of established facts, theories basis on personal hunches and opinion are positively discouraged.
Just to remind Angelo of his / her own words, and looking forward to hearing about all the established facts which support his /her accusation concerning perverting the course of justice in this case.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 03:08:39 PM
Firstly it may have escaped your notice that the McCanns had to endure months of media coverage questioning their version of events in their own country. Secondly, one party has clearly been wronged, and therefore one party is clearly going to be justifiably outraged. The only thing we differ on is which party has been wronged.
The UK media behaved disgracefully full stop, and were punished by the McCanns, their friends and Murat.
Kate McCann wasn't expecting the media to question Amaral;
It was utterly frustrating that there didn’t seem to be anybody in Portugal prepared to stand up against this man. Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority who could see through these offensive allegations. Why were they all staying quiet? Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into some kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
It never seems to occur to her that intelligent knowledgeable Portuguese people might not believe her and her husband. No, there has to be another reason!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 04:15:39 PM
The UK media behaved disgracefully full stop, and were punished by the McCanns, their friends and Murat.
Kate McCann wasn't expecting the media to question Amaral;
It was utterly frustrating that there didn’t seem to be anybody in Portugal prepared to stand up against this man. Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority who could see through these offensive allegations. Why were they all staying quiet? Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into some kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
It never seems to occur to her that intelligent knowledgeable Portuguese people might not believe her and her husband. No, there has to be another reason!
I don't think it's unreasonable for her to think that at least one intelligent, knowledgeable Portuguese person in authority might be able to see through the allegations against them, or was that hoping for too much do you think? Was their alleged guilt so very obvious to the entire Portuguese nation that not one single Portuguese person ever said to themselves "hmm...maybe they didn't do it and maybe the police are wrong, or worse trying to stitch them up...?" Is that a completely inconceivable scenario in your view, and one that Kate should have known better than to hope for?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 18, 2016, 04:50:06 PM
I don't think it's unreasonable for her to think that at least one intelligent, knowledgeable Portuguese person in authority might be able to see through the allegations against them, or was that hoping for too much do you think? Was their alleged guilt so very obvious to the entire Portuguese nation that not one single Portuguese person ever said to themselves "hmm...maybe they didn't do it and maybe the police are wrong, or worse trying to stitch them up...?" Is that a completely inconceivable scenario in your view, and one that Kate should have known better than to hope for?
I am not quite sure if you are talking about people inside the investigation or people outside the investigation.
Nor am I sure if you are talking about a time when the investigation was active in Portugal, or whether you mean when it had been archived.
Paulo Rebelo, what little of him I have dug up, seems to have worked within the legal framework, and his team provided an archiving report that certainly does not 'stitch the McCanns up', so I find that phrase to be without merit and in very poor taste.
Why anyone in Portugal, other than officers who had sat in on the case or had been part of command hierarchy, would have had an accurate picture of what was going on, before the investigation was archived, is beyond me. Amaral's watch was leaking, despite supposed judicial silence. Team McCann had a PR spokesman on board, despite supposed judicial silence.
Whether there were significant leaks from the Portuguese side during Rebelo's watch, I do not know. If anyone can fill me on what if anything leaked during that period, please enlighten me.
This move us to post-archive and post book launch.
The archival report was now available to UK and Portuguese media, so the question is, did any media outlet make a big deal of it? On either side?
I have seen a number of Amaral interviews from this phase. I do not collate or index such interviews, so please don't ask me for cites. I have yet to see one in which Amaral was not challenged on his theory, with the interviewer obviously trying to extract further details for the delectation of the audience. I have seen more than one where some other talking head would agree that Amaral's theory was not unreasonable. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a number of the more preposterous claims, such as the freezer one, have this source as their origin.
And here is the interesting point. Team McCann, complete with UK PR person Clarence, chose the UK media as the battleground. They went after a peanut sized organisation in Portugal, but none of the big boys. And when the restrictions of judicial secrecy had been lifted (and arguido status) they chose not to deploy any talking head in Portugal.
So who did not stand up to Amaral? Answer, in the first instance, Team McCann. Then they tried to blame the Portuguese for not doing what they could have and should have done themselves.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 05:02:07 PM
@ Shining - you said "So who did not stand up to Amaral? Answer, in the first instance, Team McCann. Then they tried to blame the Portuguese for not doing what they could have and should have done themselves." Wouldn't that have just have made the situation worse?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 05:05:32 PM
I am not quite sure if you are talking about people inside the investigation or people outside the investigation.
Nor am I sure if you are talking about a time when the investigation was active in Portugal, or whether you mean when it had been archived.
Paulo Rebelo, what little of him I have dug up, seems to have worked within the legal framework, and his team provided an archiving report that certainly does not 'stitch the McCanns up', so I find that phrase to be without merit and in very poor taste.
Why anyone in Portugal, other than officers who had sat in on the case or had been part of command hierarchy, would have had an accurate picture of what was going on, before the investigation was archived, is beyond me. Amaral's watch was leaking, despite supposed judicial silence. Team McCann had a PR spokesman on board, despite supposed judicial silence.
Whether there were significant leaks from the Portuguese side during Rebelo's watch, I do not know. If anyone can fill me on what if anything leaked during that period, please enlighten me.
This move us to post-archive and post book launch.
The archival report was now available to UK and Portuguese media, so the question is, did any media outlet make a big deal of it? On either side?
I have seen a number of Amaral interviews from this phase. I do not collate or index such interviews, so please don't ask me for cites. I have yet to see one in which Amaral was not challenged on his theory, with the interviewer obviously trying to extract further details for the delectation of the audience. I have seen more than one where some other talking head would agree that Amaral's theory was not unreasonable. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a number of the more preposterous claims, such as the freezer one, have this source as their origin.
And here is the interesting point. Team McCann, complete with UK PR person Clarence, chose the UK media as the battleground. They went after a peanut sized organisation in Portugal, but none of the big boys. And when the restrictions of judicial secrecy had been lifted (and arguido status) they chose not to deploy any talking head in Portugal.
So who did not stand up to Amaral? Answer, in the first instance, Team McCann. Then they tried to blame the Portuguese for not doing what they could have and should have done themselves.
I think you need to read back and understand the exchange between myself and G-Unit, before making knee-jerk remarks such as the one I have highlighted above. I was not accusing the police of stitching up the McCanns but suggesting that it might possibly have crossed the mind of an intelligent and knowledgeable Portuguese person that Team Amaral had attempted to do that earlier in the investigation. This conversation is nothing to do with Rebelo and is all about Kate's feelings at the time Amaral was appearing in the media trying to convince the world that they dunnit. I know you feel you have to defend Portugal's honour at every opportunity especially if it's me that you think is besmirching your beloved adopted country, but in this instance you are mistaken.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 18, 2016, 05:17:36 PM
@ Shining - you said "So who did not stand up to Amaral? Answer, in the first instance, Team McCann. Then they tried to blame the Portuguese for not doing what they could have and should have done themselves." Wouldn't that have just have made the situation worse?
They were armed with the archiving report. The archiving report does not accuse them of any crime and further, clears them of negligence with respect to the parental supervision methods, under Portuguese law.
The only criticism they were potentially subject to was the T9 deciding not to do a reconstruction. However, expecting the McCanns as arguidos to go back and do a reconstruction without the T7 falls into the category of ludicrous nonsense.
With the archiving report the McCanns held the ace. Everything they needed to ridicule Amaral's theory. Did they ever play their ace? It would appear not.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2016, 05:33:39 PM
They were armed with the archiving report. The archiving report does not accuse them of any crime and further, clears them of negligence with respect to the parental supervision methods, under Portuguese law.
The only criticism they were potentially subject to was the T9 deciding not to do a reconstruction. However, expecting the McCanns as arguidos to go back and do a reconstruction without the T7 falls into the category of ludicrous nonsense.
With the archiving report the McCanns held the ace. Everything they needed to ridicule Amaral's theory. Did they ever play their ace? It would appear not.
Thanks. I think you are right on this one. I was surprised how favourable the Archiving Report was. Really to the point where those described as anti-McCanns don't want to accept it. They still back Goncalo Amaral, yet the official report says something quite different. With the polarization that has occurred it isn't easy to get everyone on one side again. The McCanns would not have a method to sort that out.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 06:16:27 PM
I don't think it's unreasonable for her to think that at least one intelligent, knowledgeable Portuguese person in authority might be able to see through the allegations against them, or was that hoping for too much do you think? Was their alleged guilt so very obvious to the entire Portuguese nation that not one single Portuguese person ever said to themselves "hmm...maybe they didn't do it and maybe the police are wrong, or worse trying to stitch them up...?" Is that a completely inconceivable scenario in your view, and one that Kate should have known better than to hope for?
I find her assumption that intelligent Portuguese people would naturally agree with her and should speak out on her behalf quite arrogant actually. Why the heck should they?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 06:21:47 PM
This is what happens when you take a couple of sentences out of context, people forget the context in which they were written. The quote G-Unit used describes Kate's feelings at the exact time that Amaral was conducting his publicity trail for his (as it was then) new book, the despair she felt at the time of the launch, the bafflement that there did not seem anyone in Portugal prepared to seriously challenge Amaral's version of events. Of course, as Kate goes on to explain, they did consider legal action against Amaral,"but we had concerns about the time and effort this would involve. We did not want to be diverted from our own investigation just as we had put the restrictions of the case behind us and we feared that any resolution through the Portuguese courts would take too long. For the moment we hoped the fuss would die down and Amaral would let up".
Kate never said or expected (as SIL has claimed) that the Portuguese should have defended the McCanns - she simply asked herself why there was NO ONE AT ALL in Portugal standing up to Amaral's allegations. This was even prior to the receipt of the Archiving Report, so once again SIL's post above is unfair and plain wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 06:25:46 PM
I find her assumption that intelligent Portuguese people would naturally agree with her and should speak out on her behalf quite arrogant actually. Why the heck should they?
Because she was innocent and telling the truth? Are you completely incapable of seeing things from another's point of view? You are innocent and have committed no crime, yet everyone believes the guy who is publicly accusing you despite his lack of evidence - are you not going to wonder why no one with half a brain-cell can see what is going on, or is prepared to question his version of events or is prepared to speak up for you?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 07:59:28 PM
Because she was innocent and telling the truth? Are you completely incapable of seeing things from another's point of view? You are innocent and have committed no crime, yet everyone believes the guy who is publicly accusing you despite his lack of evidence - are you not going to wonder why no one with half a brain-cell can see what is going on, or is prepared to question his version of events or is prepared to speak up for you?
I have bolded the text upon which the rest of your argument relies. As the crime is unknown, no-one knows who's innocent.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2016, 08:37:57 PM
I find her assumption that intelligent Portuguese people would naturally agree with her and should speak out on her behalf quite arrogant actually. Why the heck should they?
With reference to what Shining has posted re the archiving report which cleared the McCanns of involvement in their daughter's disappearance ...
One presumes that law abiding literate people are capable of taking on board the relevance of the decision taken by their own 'law lords' after reviewing all the evidence available to them.
To coin a phrase ... why the heck should it be the responsibility of the parents of a missing child to educate the Portuguese in finer points of the law of their own land?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 08:50:49 PM
I have bolded the text upon which the rest of your argument relies. As the crime is unknown, no-one knows who's innocent.
Kate is writing her views from the point of view of an innocent person. in that context therefore her sentiment is perfectly understandable as I have already explained , though you claim to find it arrogant. That exposes your biased attitude to the woman, and no understanding of how someone in that position (and let's take Kate out of this for a moment and substitute any innocent person wrongly accused) might feel bewildered that no one was sticking up for them in the face of an accusatory and public attack from another.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2016, 09:03:15 PM
Kate is writing her views from the point of view of an innocent person. in that context therefore her sentiment is perfectly understandable as I have already explained , though you claim to find it arrogant. That exposes your biased attitude to the woman, and no understanding of how someone in that position (and let's take Kate out of this for a moment and substitute any innocent person wrongly accused) might feel bewildered that no one was sticking up for them in the face of an accusatory and public attack from another.
You do not know who is innocent or otherwise in this case.
She wrote a book, some claim with assistance.
As to it's contents, it is biased in her favour.
Whether it reflects what really happened is another matter entirely.
The only clear facts are that the Mccanns left their children 5 nights in a row, whilst they went out to socialize, and on the 5 th night Madeleine disappeared.
She once claimed outside a Portuguese Court to a local journalist, to the effect, that she was there and knew what happened to Madeleine.
She wasn't there Alf, WAS SHE.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 18, 2016, 09:12:05 PM
With reference to what Shining has posted re the archiving report which cleared the McCanns of involvement in their daughter's disappearance ...
One presumes that law abiding literate people are capable of taking on board the relevance of the decision taken by their own 'law lords' after reviewing all the evidence available to them.
To coin a phrase ... why the heck should it be the responsibility of the parents of a missing child to educate the Portuguese in finer points of the law of their own land?
The Portuguese authorities released the PJ Files in accordance with Portuguese law, complete with the archiving report. Which Portuguese authority was tasked to do more and failed to do so?
So let's turn to Team McCann. The disappearance occurred in Portugal. Team McCann had a PR expert on board. Team McCann had access to a professionally translated copy of the archival report. Team McCann had access to at least one Portuguese lawyer, from memory two, but I haven't followed this bit, so I am prepared to be corrected if I am wrong. Team McCann was active in the UK media. The dragon Amaral was active in Portugal.
With all of this, Portugal is to be blamed for not having some sort of Portuguese equivalent of St George riding into battle to slay the dragon known as Amaral, when the McCanns chose not to? Sorry, this idea is quite without merit.
For the record, St George replaced St James as the patron saint of Portugal about 900 years ago, after some battle victory or other. Wiki it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 10:02:54 PM
With reference to what Shining has posted re the archiving report which cleared the McCanns of involvement in their daughter's disappearance ...
One presumes that law abiding literate people are capable of taking on board the relevance of the decision taken by their own 'law lords' after reviewing all the evidence available to them.
To coin a phrase ... why the heck should it be the responsibility of the parents of a missing child to educate the Portuguese in finer points of the law of their own land?
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged, so cannot be cleared.
Kate McCann thought that a certain section of the Portuguese population should speak out publicly against Amaral because to her it was obvious that intelligent well informed people would disagree with him.
She goes on to wonder why they didn't do what she thought they should do;
Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
Perhaps it was because they didn't disagree with him? Or, more simply, they didn't believe her. Kate never even considered those possibilities.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2016, 10:23:44 PM
Kate is writing her views from the point of view of an innocent person. in that context therefore her sentiment is perfectly understandable as I have already explained , though you claim to find it arrogant. That exposes your biased attitude to the woman, and no understanding of how someone in that position (and let's take Kate out of this for a moment and substitute any innocent person wrongly accused) might feel bewildered that no one was sticking up for them in the face of an accusatory and public attack from another.
A lot of things bewildered Kate McCann. The step back taken by UK authorities when they were made arguidos, the refusal of the police to hand them their evidence files, the comment on their innocence made by the Deputy Chief Constable of LP.
I'm bewildered by someone who expects perfect strangers in another country to speak up for her.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2016, 10:35:37 PM
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged, so cannot be cleared.
Kate McCann thought that a certain section of the Portuguese population should speak out publicly against Amaral because to her it was obvious that intelligent well informed people would disagree with him.
She goes on to wonder why they didn't do what she thought they should do;
Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
Perhaps it was because they didn't disagree with him? Or, more simply, they didn't believe her. Kate never even considered those possibilities.
It is impossible to judge the (shelved) enquiry properly without reading the files.
And it ought to be impossible to conclude other than to conclude (upon reading the files) that the decision to drop the McCanns' arguido status was justified through-and-through.
It's technically accurate to say the McCanns weren't "cleared" (because they were never charged) and to be "cleared" you, first, have to be charged and tried.
The question of whether they should have been made arguidos is likely to be the stumbling point of disagreement.
Even the prosecutors said the decision (to declare them arguidos) was justified (a rare point of disagreement with the prosecutors I, personally, have. On the whole, I think think the Prosecutors were very good.)
This board won't allow discussion of my reasons for disagreeing with the prosecutors that the decision to make kate and Gerry arguidos was justified.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2016, 10:48:55 PM
The Portuguese authorities released the PJ Files in accordance with Portuguese law, complete with the archiving report. Which Portuguese authority was tasked to do more and failed to do so?
So let's turn to Team McCann. The disappearance occurred in Portugal. Team McCann had a PR expert on board. Team McCann had access to a professionally translated copy of the archival report. Team McCann had access to at least one Portuguese lawyer, from memory two, but I haven't followed this bit, so I am prepared to be corrected if I am wrong. Team McCann was active in the UK media. The dragon Amaral was active in Portugal.
With all of this, Portugal is to be blamed for not having some sort of Portuguese equivalent of St George riding into battle to slay the dragon known as Amaral, when the McCanns chose not to? Sorry, this idea is quite without merit.
For the record, St George replaced St James as the patron saint of Portugal about 900 years ago, after some battle victory or other. Wiki it.
Robert Murat went through a process of justifying to the Portuguese public that there was no case made against him resulting in the removal of his arguido status?
When was that exactly?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2016, 10:52:00 PM
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged, so cannot be cleared.
Kate McCann thought that a certain section of the Portuguese population should speak out publicly against Amaral because to her it was obvious that intelligent well informed people would disagree with him.
She goes on to wonder why they didn't do what she thought they should do;
Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
Perhaps it was because they didn't disagree with him? Or, more simply, they didn't believe her. Kate never even considered those possibilities.
Your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and in my opinion insults Portuguese jurisprudence and the rule of law.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 10:59:59 PM
A lot of things bewildered Kate McCann. The step back taken by UK authorities when they were made arguidos, the refusal of the police to hand them their evidence files, the comment on their innocence made by the Deputy Chief Constable of LP.
I'm bewildered by someone who expects perfect strangers in another country to speak up for her.
Why shouldn't one expect perfect strangers in another country (where one feels one is being unfairly villified) to speak up for one? Anyone who has faith in humanity and basic common decency might, in the same situation, do the same. The fact that you're bewildered by Kate's bewilderment at what must have been a very bewildering time for her and her family is, frankly, quite bewildering.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2016, 11:08:23 PM
I, personally, am a little bit fed up with the way some people are allowed to get away with making comments on this board without proper context.
The comment of the deputy chief constable of Leicester police was made before release of the files.
The key question is whether, having read them, he would make the same comment.
Surely not ....
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 18, 2016, 11:32:24 PM
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged, so cannot be cleared.
Kate McCann thought that a certain section of the Portuguese population should speak out publicly against Amaral because to her it was obvious that intelligent well informed people would disagree with him.
She goes on to wonder why they didn't do what she thought they should do;
Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out? Perhaps Amaral had tapped into kind of national subconscious desire for this to all just go away. [Madeleine]
Perhaps it was because they didn't disagree with him? Or, more simply, they didn't believe her. Kate never even considered those possibilities.
When you know you're innocent you find it hard to believe that other people cannot see that you are innocent, you believe and hope that someone, somewhere will recognize that you haven't done the things you have been accused of, and that you are being treated unjustly. It's human to feel this way, and Kate is expressing in her book her human feelings of frustration. Surely she was within her rights to suggest that there might be some intelligent Portuguese people in authority who didn't believe her guilty of the crimes of which she was being accused? Why is she wrong to do so, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2016, 11:54:17 PM
When you know you're innocent you find it hard to believe that other people cannot see that you are innocent, you believe and hope that someone, somewhere will recognize that you haven't done the things you have been accused of, and that you are being treated unjustly. It's human to feel this way, and Kate is expressing in her book her human feelings of frustration. Surely she was within her rights to suggest that there might be some intelligent Portuguese people in authority who didn't believe her guilty of the crimes of which she was being accused? Why is she wrong to do so, in your opinion?
8((()*/
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 18, 2016, 11:58:57 PM
Robert Murat went through a process of justifying to the Portuguese public that there was no case made against him resulting in the removal of his arguido status?
When was that exactly?
He didn't. The case got archived. Hence his status as arguido came to an end, as did the arguido status of the McCanns.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2016, 12:30:48 AM
He didn't. The case got archived. Hence his status as arguido came to an end, as did the arguido status of the McCanns.
No-one wrote a book accusing him of guilt in Madeleine's disappearance. No-one made a documentary to reinforce the accusation of his guilt. No-one gave numerous interviews to television and newspaper journalists implying all sorts about him after the archiving of Madeleine's case and the removal of his arguido status.
There is no justification either legal or moral that Madeleine's parents have been subjected to all of that and more.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 12:59:29 AM
No-one wrote a book accusing him of guilt in Madeleine's disappearance. No-one made a documentary to reinforce the accusation of his guilt. No-one gave numerous interviews to television and newspaper journalists implying all sorts about him after the archiving of Madeleine's case and the removal of his arguido status.
There is no justification either legal or moral that Madeleine's parents have been subjected to all of that and more.
Did he, or didn't he, get a big chunk of money out of the UK media for the rubbish they threw at him?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2016, 02:15:06 AM
Did he, or didn't he, get a big chunk of money out of the UK media for the rubbish they threw at him?
His press treatment occurred during the period when he was an arguido and was nothing at all to do with the McCanns (and their friends) who were suffering the same. His successful actions for redress were taken after his arguido status was lifted making him demonstrably innocent of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2016, 04:54:45 AM
It is impossible to judge the (shelved) enquiry properly without reading the files.
And it ought to be impossible to conclude other than to conclude (upon reading the files) that the decision to drop the McCanns' arguido status was justified through-and-through.
It's technically accurate to say the McCanns weren't "cleared" (because they were never charged) and to be "cleared" you, first, have to be charged and tried.
The question of whether they should have been made arguidos is likely to be the stumbling point of disagreement.
Even the prosecutors said the decision (to declare them arguidos) was justified (a rare point of disagreement with the prosecutors I, personally, have. On the whole, I think think the Prosecutors were very good.)
This board won't allow discussion of my reasons for disagreeing with the prosecutors that the decision to make kate and Gerry arguidos was justified.
Didn't Rebelo say that making The McCanns Arguidos was somewhat hasty hasty? And was it not to do with an imminent change in the law?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 19, 2016, 08:15:49 AM
When you know you're innocent you find it hard to believe that other people cannot see that you are innocent, you believe and hope that someone, somewhere will recognize that you haven't done the things you have been accused of, and that you are being treated unjustly. It's human to feel this way, and Kate is expressing in her book her human feelings of frustration. Surely she was within her rights to suggest that there might be some intelligent Portuguese people in authority who didn't believe her guilty of the crimes of which she was being accused? Why is she wrong to do so, in your opinion?
All your posts seem to rest on the bolded text, which is what you believe. The rest of it is how you imagine such a person might think and feel.
She had no right whatsoever to suggest that people were scared to speak against Amaral.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2016, 08:35:57 AM
All your posts seem to rest on the bolded text, which is what you believe. The rest of it is how you imagine such a person might think and feel.
She had no right whatsoever to suggest that people were scared to speak against Amaral.
Mrs Murat provided a public place for locals who might have information but were scared to approach the police. Amaral was one of 'the police' in this instance. He was in charge of the case. Are you saying she had no right to do that?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 09:31:40 AM
All your posts seem to rest on the bolded text, which is what you believe. The rest of it is how you imagine such a person might think and feel.
She had no right whatsoever to suggest that people were scared to speak against Amaral.
You just don't get it do you? I am not making any judgements on Kate's innocence or otherwise - YOU are. Try and understand what I am saying: Kate is writing the book from the perspective of an innocent person. Whether or not you believe she is innocent is beside the point. From the perspective of an innocent person it is perfectly reasonable to write what she did IMO. Of course, she could be guilty and telling terrible lies throughout the book, but she is consistent in her portrayal of the thoughts and feelings of someone who is innocent and who feels they have been treated unjustly - by Amaral and the media in Portugal who seemed eager to give him a platform, without any serious challenge to his "thesis". I don't know if I can make my point any clearer, please don't feel you need to repeat that "we don't know if Kate is innocent or not" - I heard you the first time, shame you didn't understand my first reply!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2016, 09:32:29 AM
I, personally, am a little bit fed up with the way some people are allowed to get away with making comments on this board without proper context.
The comment of the deputy chief constable of Leicester police was made before release of the files.
The key question is whether, having read them, he would make the same comment.
Surely not ....
Context?
17th May 2007 Madeleine made a Ward of Court. 22nd May 2007 A disclosure order issued by the Court.
Disclosure order served on Leicestershire Police requiring them to release all their evidence on the case to the parents. They refused and the Attorney General and SOCA also got involved in arguing against the order.
Kate doesn't say when the Order was served on LP, but we know it was issued by the Court on 22nd May 2007.
While we were away, there was a hearing in the High Court relating to an application we had made on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the information held by Leicestershire police relating to her case. [Madeleine]
The reason Kate gives for serving the order on LP is that no-one is searching for Madeleine so they want the information to give to their PI's.
Kate believes the searching stopped when they were made arguidos, so the order may have been served in Autumn 2007.
She was surprised by the force of their refusal;
The UK authorities fought our application tooth and nail. I was shocked by the force of their opposition and the lengths to which they seemed prepared to go to deny us this access in these circumstances. [Madeleine]
I have never heard of the police handing over evidence to anyone, let alone to people under suspicion. I'm surprised the McCann's lawyers didn't point this out to them. In this case a lot of the evidence had been gathered to help the official investigation in Portugal, so it didn't even belong to LP. That, it seems, the McCanns were aware of. The order seems to have been a way of forcing LP legally to do something which the Portuguese wouldn't like.
I’d thought a court order would be seen by the police, who were always telling us their hands were tied, as a way of helping us without upsetting their Portuguese counterparts. If they were required by law to pass us this information, surely the PJ would need to accept that? [Madeleine]
So Kate believed that LP wanted to help them, but were constrained in some way. I wonder why she formed that impression? I'm sure the LP officers behaved entirely professionally and never gave the McCanns reason to believe they were biased in their favour.
In this context the statement by the Deputy Chief Constable makes LP's official position perfectly clear;
‘While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.’ [Madeleine]
A statement as true now as it was then. There may be no evidence to implicate them, but equally there's no clear evidence which eliminates them. If there is, it hasn't been shared with the general public. Speculating as to whether that view has changed is fine, but there's no evidence that it has.
For anyone interested, more here; http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 19, 2016, 11:20:54 AM
It is impossible to judge the (shelved) enquiry properly without reading the files.
And it ought to be impossible to conclude other than to conclude (upon reading the files) that the decision to drop the McCanns' arguido status was justified through-and-through.
It's technically accurate to say the McCanns weren't "cleared" (because they were never charged) and to be "cleared" you, first, have to be charged and tried.
The question of whether they should have been made arguidos is likely to be the stumbling point of disagreement.
Even the prosecutors said the decision (to declare them arguidos) was justified (a rare point of disagreement with the prosecutors I, personally, have. On the whole, I think think the Prosecutors were very good.)
This board won't allow discussion of my reasons for disagreeing with the prosecutors that the decision to make kate and Gerry arguidos was justified.
Why ever not?
I would like to see your reasons for disagreeing with the prosecutors for their decision against Kate and Gerry.
I find your arguments very solid.
Whatever happened to Freedom of Speech ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 11:24:35 AM
You just don't get it do you? I am not making any judgements on Kate's innocence or otherwise - YOU are. Try and understand what I am saying: Kate is writing the book from the perspective of an innocent person. Whether or not you believe she is innocent is beside the point. From the perspective of an innocent person it is perfectly reasonable to write what she did IMO. Of course, she could be guilty and telling terrible lies throughout the book, but she is consistent in her portrayal of the thoughts and feelings of someone who is innocent and who feels they have been treated unjustly - by Amaral and the media in Portugal who seemed eager to give him a platform, without any serious challenge to his "thesis". I don't know if I can make my point any clearer, please don't feel you need to repeat that "we don't know if Kate is innocent or not" - I heard you the first time, shame you didn't understand my first reply!
I don't think anyone has the right to suggest that people stay quiet because they're scared without explaining why they think that. As it stands, it's an unfounded allegation.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2016, 11:35:20 AM
17th May 2007 Madeleine made a Ward of Court. 22nd May 2007 A disclosure order issued by the Court.
Disclosure order served on Leicestershire Police requiring them to release all their evidence on the case to the parents. They refused and the Attorney General and SOCA also got involved in arguing against the order.
Kate doesn't say when the Order was served on LP, but we know it was issued by the Court on 22nd May 2007.
While we were away, there was a hearing in the High Court relating to an application we had made on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the information held by Leicestershire police relating to her case. [Madeleine]
The reason Kate gives for serving the order on LP is that no-one is searching for Madeleine so they want the information to give to their PI's.
Kate believes the searching stopped when they were made arguidos, so the order may have been served in Autumn 2007.
She was surprised by the force of their refusal;
The UK authorities fought our application tooth and nail. I was shocked by the force of their opposition and the lengths to which they seemed prepared to go to deny us this access in these circumstances. [Madeleine]
I have never heard of the police handing over evidence to anyone, let alone to people under suspicion. I'm surprised the McCann's lawyers didn't point this out to them. In this case a lot of the evidence had been gathered to help the official investigation in Portugal, so it didn't even belong to LP. That, it seems, the McCanns were aware of. The order seems to have been a way of forcing LP legally to do something which the Portuguese wouldn't like.
I’d thought a court order would be seen by the police, who were always telling us their hands were tied, as a way of helping us without upsetting their Portuguese counterparts. If they were required by law to pass us this information, surely the PJ would need to accept that? [Madeleine]
So Kate believed that LP wanted to help them, but were constrained in some way. I wonder why she formed that impression? I'm sure the LP officers behaved entirely professionally and never gave the McCanns reason to believe they were biased in their favour.
In this context the statement by the Deputy Chief Constable makes LP's official position perfectly clear;
‘While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.’ [Madeleine]
A statement as true now as it was then. There may be no evidence to implicate them, but equally there's no clear evidence which eliminates them. If there is, it hasn't been shared with the general public. Speculating as to whether that view has changed is fine, but there's no evidence that it has.
For anyone interested, more here; http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
Yes, context.
The case was shelved in August 2008.
By the autumn of 2007, ill-founded suspicion against the McCanns was beginning to gather force.
That is the context of the comment.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 19, 2016, 11:38:38 AM
17th May 2007 Madeleine made a Ward of Court. 22nd May 2007 A disclosure order issued by the Court.
Disclosure order served on Leicestershire Police requiring them to release all their evidence on the case to the parents. They refused and the Attorney General and SOCA also got involved in arguing against the order.
Kate doesn't say when the Order was served on LP, but we know it was issued by the Court on 22nd May 2007.
While we were away, there was a hearing in the High Court relating to an application we had made on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the information held by Leicestershire police relating to her case. [Madeleine]
The reason Kate gives for serving the order on LP is that no-one is searching for Madeleine so they want the information to give to their PI's.
Kate believes the searching stopped when they were made arguidos, so the order may have been served in Autumn 2007.
She was surprised by the force of their refusal;
The UK authorities fought our application tooth and nail. I was shocked by the force of their opposition and the lengths to which they seemed prepared to go to deny us this access in these circumstances. [Madeleine]
I have never heard of the police handing over evidence to anyone, let alone to people under suspicion. I'm surprised the McCann's lawyers didn't point this out to them. In this case a lot of the evidence had been gathered to help the official investigation in Portugal, so it didn't even belong to LP. That, it seems, the McCanns were aware of. The order seems to have been a way of forcing LP legally to do something which the Portuguese wouldn't like.
I’d thought a court order would be seen by the police, who were always telling us their hands were tied, as a way of helping us without upsetting their Portuguese counterparts. If they were required by law to pass us this information, surely the PJ would need to accept that? [Madeleine]
So Kate believed that LP wanted to help them, but were constrained in some way. I wonder why she formed that impression? I'm sure the LP officers behaved entirely professionally and never gave the McCanns reason to believe they were biased in their favour.
In this context the statement by the Deputy Chief Constable makes LP's official position perfectly clear;
‘While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.’ [Madeleine]
A statement as true now as it was then. There may be no evidence to implicate them, but equally there's no clear evidence which eliminates them. If there is, it hasn't been shared with the general public. Speculating as to whether that view has changed is fine, but there's no evidence that it has.
For anyone interested, more here; http://www.mccannfiles.com/id130.html
The McCanns were still arguidos. The DCC would have caused a diplomatic incident had he appeared to do anything which even hinted that he disagreed with that decision by the PT police force. Releasing the files to arguidos would have given that impression imo.
IMO he tried to steer a middle road by making the statement he did.
The McCanns were badly advised to expect or to even ask for the release of files - while they were still arguidos imo.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 19, 2016, 11:47:54 AM
I don't think anyone has the right to suggest that people stay quiet because they're scared without explaining why they think that. As it stands, it's an unfounded allegation.
Even with my limited knowledge of the PJ's modus operandi, I would be frightened to go to them for any reason.
Both in the Michael Cook case and in the Leonor Cipriano case we have 'witnesses' whose statements were used in Court to convict. In both these instances the statements were later withdrawn by the 'witnesses'.
We know from reports that Leandro Silvas statement came as the result of having been physically attacked ...
We dont know why the other witness withdrew his statement after it had been used in Court to help convict Michael Cook, but we can make an educated guerss.
Jenny Murat set up her stand, she says, in case people who had knowledge of what happened to Madeleine were frightened to go to the Police.
That is enough for me.
Sounds like the Salazar (spelling?) era is exerting its influence.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:53:05 AM
I don't think anyone has the right to suggest that people stay quiet because they're scared without explaining why they think that. As it stands, it's an unfounded allegation.
@)(++(* Priceless. It's called "having an opinion" - she's writing a book about her own experiences, thoughts and feelings at the time, not giving evidence in court FFS. EVERYONE has a right to an opinion and to express themselves I thought?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
Mrs Murat provided a public place for locals who might have information but were scared to approach the police. Amaral was one of 'the police' in this instance. He was in charge of the case. Are you saying she had no right to do that?
She said;
the deponent states that because she has been in Portugal for a long time and knows many people, she decided to mount a "post" to collect information in order to be able to determine things about the subject and thus could channel them to the competent authorities. For three days (Friday 11/05, Saturday 12/05 and Sunday 13/05) she was at the "post" mounted near to the cinema having obtained some information that she gave to Robert who, in turn, gave it to the Police. --- Her idea was to try to sensitise people not to feel intimidated by the presence of police and lead them to give all the information that they knew. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JENNIFER-MURAT.htm
You are assuming that intimidated means scared.
Sensitise; make people aware. Intimidated; overawed.
So her aim can be seen as an effort to make people aware there was no need to feel overawed by the police presence.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 12:26:10 PM
the deponent states that because she has been in Portugal for a long time and knows many people, she decided to mount a "post" to collect information in order to be able to determine things about the subject and thus could channel them to the competent authorities. For three days (Friday 11/05, Saturday 12/05 and Sunday 13/05) she was at the "post" mounted near to the cinema having obtained some information that she gave to Robert who, in turn, gave it to the Police. --- Her idea was to try to sensitise people not to feel intimidated by the presence of police and lead them to give all the information that they knew. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JENNIFER-MURAT.htm
You are assuming that intimidated means scared.
Sensitise; make people aware. Intimidated; overawed.
So her aim can be seen as an effort to make people aware there was no need to feel overawed by the police presence.
Selective choice of definition there. The primary definition of 'intimidate' is
1.
to make timid; fill with fear.
But of course you "know" that's not what Mrs Murat meant, right?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
I don't think anyone has the right to suggest that people stay quiet because they're scared without explaining why they think that. As it stands, it's an unfounded allegation.
Oh and whilst we're on the subject of "rights", do you think anyone has the right to suggest that someone else hid their child's body in a fridge or a coffin in a church without providing any actual evidence for this?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 12:35:06 PM
The McCanns were still arguidos. The DCC would have caused a diplomatic incident had he appeared to do anything which even hinted that he disagreed with that decision by the PT police force. Releasing the files to arguidos would have given that impression imo.
IMO he tried to steer a middle road by making the statement he did.
The McCanns were badly advised to expect or to even ask for the release of files - while they were still arguidos imo.
They may have had good advice and chosen to disregard it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 12:41:06 PM
Selective choice of definition there. The primary definition of 'intimidate' is
1.
to make timid; fill with fear.
But of course you "know" that's not what Mrs Murat meant, right?
I just couldn't imagine Mrs Murat suggesting to the PJ that she believed people were afraid of them. Assuming her statement was designed to help her son that might have been a bad move. Even if she was using your definition it was their presence she said might be intimidating people, not them as such.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 19, 2016, 12:44:38 PM
the deponent states that because she has been in Portugal for a long time and knows many people, she decided to mount a "post" to collect information in order to be able to determine things about the subject and thus could channel them to the competent authorities. For three days (Friday 11/05, Saturday 12/05 and Sunday 13/05) she was at the "post" mounted near to the cinema having obtained some information that she gave to Robert who, in turn, gave it to the Police. --- Her idea was to try to sensitise people not to feel intimidated by the presence of police and lead them to give all the information that they knew. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JENNIFER-MURAT.htm
You are assuming that intimidated means scared.
Sensitise; make people aware. Intimidated; overawed.
So her aim can be seen as an effort to make people aware there was no need to feel overawed by the police presence.
Pure nitpicking IMO. There is only one credible reason why she thought people would not want to get involved with the police and that is because they were scared to. Not surprising if they knew about the Cipriano case and that the lead policeman who had just been made an arguido regarding the torture of a witness was someone who could be questioning them.
Although even without that particular knowledge I believe that many of the indiginous population would be well aware of the 'vigorous' methods of interrogation employed by some police officers - particular those officers of the 'old school'. IIRC there is an interview where Amaral's mate confirms what would have happened to Kate in the 'old days'. Words to the effect that she would have been in prison before she knew what had hit her. (no pun intended). From memory so am happy to retract if necessary.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 12:44:43 PM
I just couldn't imagine Mrs Murat suggesting to the PJ that she believed people were afraid of them. Assuming her statement was designed to help her son that might have been a bad move. Even if she was using your definition it was their presence she said might be intimidating people, not them as such.
Why is that then?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on September 19, 2016, 12:46:22 PM
Oh and whilst we're on the subject of "rights", do you think anyone has the right to suggest that someone else hid their child's body in a fridge or a coffin in a church without providing any actual evidence for this?
I haven't got cites for those. Do you?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2016, 01:01:43 PM
Pure nitpicking IMO. There is only one credible reason why she thought people would not want to get involved with the police and that is because they were scared to. Not surprising if they knew about the Cipriano case and that the lead policeman who had just been made an arguido regarding the torture of a witness was someone who could be questioning them.
Although even without that particular knowledge I believe that many of the indiginous population would be well aware of the 'vigorous' methods of interrogation employed by some police officers - particular those officers of the 'old school'. IIRC there is an interview where Amaral's mate confirms what would have happened to Kate in the 'old days'. Words to the effect that she would have been in prison before she knew what had hit her. (no pun intended). From memory so am happy to retract if necessary.
AIMHO
All suposition imo.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 01:13:30 PM
You can't work out why a suspect's mother might take care not to offend those who suspected him?
She set up the stall before he was a suspect didn't she? And are you really suggesting that the PT police are so sensitive to the words of a little old lady that they might somehow take it out on her son? &%+((£
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 02:20:08 PM
She set up the stall before he was a suspect didn't she? And are you really suggesting that the PT police are so sensitive to the words of a little old lady that they might somehow take it out on her son? &%+((£
Her statement was dated August 2007, which is quite late on as she was giving him an alibi.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 02:47:36 PM
I suppose UK figures will be quite low because we've replaced many police officers by surveillance cameras
Shame there wasn't more effective use of surveillance cameras in PdL in May 2007 - this case might have been solved years ago.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 19, 2016, 03:44:14 PM
That may well be the case, but as we know from experience in this country, cameras have an annoying habit of being switched off or malfunctioning at crucial times.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 03:49:25 PM
That may well be the case, but as we know from experience in this country, cameras have an annoying habit of being switched off or malfunctioning at crucial times.
Even more annoying when the cops don't bother to check them until it's too late and the tapes have been wiped.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 19, 2016, 03:56:56 PM
Or happen to be pointing in an inappropriate direction, so miss any crucial action.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 04:14:33 PM
Shame the incident didn't occur in England - this case might or might not have been solved years ago.
In the Isabel Celis case (6 year old allegedly abducted through her Tucson bedroom window 21/4/2012 & still missing) there was CCTV directly showing the property. http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/31971686/newly-released-video-shows-celis-home-on-night-of-disappearance. Despite this, the crime remains unsolved.
Many crimes are solved in the UK because of CCTV. The recent documentary on the murder of Sadie Hartley earlier this year showed how important CCTV & number plate recognition proved in catching the killers. http://www.itv.com/hub/the-murder-of-sadie-hartley/2a4328a0004
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 05:08:57 PM
Or happen to be pointing in an inappropriate direction, so miss any crucial action.
Since CCTV seems to be one of the groundhog day subjects on this forum, I decided to see if John Hill's statement about them not being legal around the Ocean Club was correct.
http://www.vda.pt/xms/files/Publicacoes/Artigo_MPC+CNN_Video_surveillance_vs_privacey_(PrivaceyLawBusiness2006).pdf This is a legal newsletter, dated Dec 2006, providing information on legal and illegal use of CCTV in Portugal. It is written in English, it is only 2 pages long, and it is written by 1 associate and 1 senior associate of a Portuguese law firm.
For anyone not bothering to read it, John Hill was right, because the areas around the OC are public, not private, and the law essentially forbids the deployment of CCTV in most public situations.
Perhaps the OC could have applied to deploy CCTV within areas such as the Tapas and Millennium areas. As to whether they would have got it, most such deployment was being rejected by the relevant authority.
Note, the legal briefing specifically covers CCTV in nurseries, basically a no-no.
I dare say we could debate the legality of the CCTV in the Paraíso then, or even the Luz webcams now, but is it worth the effort?
Therefore, the only 'missed' CCTV is that mentioned by Amaral. Unless someone is going to postulate that some twit wandered in and out of Estrela with Madeleine, blithely ignoring the prominent CCTV notices, the one and only bit of information such a camera might have resolved is when the Smiths got back to Estrela.
Smithman did not arise until 26 May 2007. Any suggestion that Amaral's team should before then have gathered that, plus CCTV from several Luz ATMs on the off chance that something might turn up on it is having an off day, IMO.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 19, 2016, 05:16:08 PM
Since CCTV seems to be one of the groundhog day subjects on this forum, I decided to see if John Hill's statement about them not being legal around the Ocean Club was correct.
http://www.vda.pt/xms/files/Publicacoes/Artigo_MPC+CNN_Video_surveillance_vs_privacey_(PrivaceyLawBusiness2006).pdf This is a legal newsletter, dated Dec 2006, providing information on legal and illegal use of CCTV in Portugal. It is written in English, it is only 2 pages long, and it is written by 1 associate and 1 senior associate of a Portuguese law firm.
For anyone not bothering to read it, John Hill was right, because the areas around the OC are public, not private, and the law essentially forbids the deployment of CCTV in most public situations.
Perhaps the OC could have applied to deploy CCTV within areas such as the Tapas and Millennium areas. As to whether they would have got it, most such deployment was being rejected by the relevant authority.
Note, the legal briefing specifically covers CCTV in nurseries, basically a no-no.
I dare say we could debate the legality of the CCTV in the Paraíso then, or even the Luz webcams now, but is it worth the effort?
Therefore, the only 'missed' CCTV is that mentioned by Amaral. Unless someone is going to postulate that some twit wandered in and out of Estrela with Madeleine, blithely ignoring the prominent CCTV notices, the one and only bit of information such a camera might have resolved is when the Smiths got back to Estrela.
Smithman did not arise until 26 May 2007. Any suggestion that Amaral's team should before then have gathered that, plus CCTV from several Luz ATMs on the off chance that something might turn up on it is having an off day, IMO.
That one would have been extremely useful (if working), as it would have shown the various comings & goings, together with an accurate time line.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 05:24:25 PM
More veiled insults from the moderator Shining In Luz I see. I am not having an "off" day FYI, I am very much bang on actually. I don't think it is asking too much for the police to check ALL the CCTV footage in small town where a child has gone missing, irrespective of when further evidence was brought forward.
No doubt this post will trigger another haughty put down and accusations of propaganda spreading.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 05:28:43 PM
That one would have been extremely useful (if working), as it would have shown the various comings & goings, together with an accurate time line.
The odds are stacked heavily against that.
The Estrela does not have a single entrance point, monitored by a single CCTV. It has I think 9 entrances, monitored by 10 cameras (one entrance has 2 cameras), plus 24 hour reception, which I would be willing to bet has another, though I do not know it for a fact.
So there was about a 1 in 10 chance it would tell us anything, and that was assuming Amaral foretold the rise of the Smiths and the importance of them to the time line.
I do not wish to derail this thread, so perhaps any further discussion should be taken somewhere more appropriate.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 05:34:17 PM
That one would have been extremely useful (if working), as it would have shown the various comings & goings, together with an accurate time line.
My apologies, Jassi. I now see that you have bolded possible deployment in the Tapas area, and are thus referring to getting a check on the T9 and others that week.
Mea Culpa.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 05:52:21 PM
More veiled insults from the moderator Shining In Luz I see. I am not having an "off" day FYI, I am very much bang on actually. I don't think it is asking too much for the police to check ALL the CCTV footage in small town where a child has gone missing, irrespective of when further evidence was brought forward.
No doubt this post will trigger another haughty put down and accusations of propaganda spreading.
It's a pity you chose not to quote those 'veiled insults'.
This appears to be the part you are referring to. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Smithman did not arise until 26 May 2007. Any suggestion that Amaral's team should before then have gathered that, plus CCTV from several Luz ATMs on the off chance that something might turn up on it is having an off day, IMO.
If you think that my opinion is a 'veiled insult', perhaps you have an overly thin skin.
I have done the donkey work on finding the legal position on installing and using CCTV in Portugal in 2007. Are you going to do the donkey work in finding what process the PJ was required to go through in order to grab or copy all the CCTV in Luz? IMO, you are not.
And are you going to stop at Luz? There's Lagos, motorways, airports, marinas and harbours to think of.
If you ever get round to digging up that legal process, you may have a leg to stand on.
Until then, it is your opinion only as to what the PJ should have done, regardless of whether what you are suggesting is legal or not.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 06:06:38 PM
I have Amaral's book and Kate's book and neither of them seem to have anything about fridges, freezers or coffins in them.
Amaral mentions it in an interview with Correio da Manhã;
Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk’s right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it’s the only way to explain what happened there. http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/interview-with-gonalo-amaral-cadaver.html
He was trying to explain the dogs alerting to the car. As far as I know Eddie never alerted inside the car, however; it was just Keela. I think he added two and two to five in this instance.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 06:18:18 PM
I have Amaral's book and Kate's book and neither of them seem to have anything about fridges, freezers or coffins in them.
Amaral mentions it in an interview with Correio da Manhã;
Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk’s right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it’s the only way to explain what happened there. http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/interview-with-gonalo-amaral-cadaver.html
He was trying to explain the dogs alerting to the car. As far as I know Eddie never alerted inside the car, however; it was just Keela. I think he added two and two to five in this instance.
So is it your contention that Amaral has never publicly suggested (either overtly or by inference) that her parents stored her body in a freezer or hid it in a coffin?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2016, 08:38:12 PM
So is it your contention that Amaral has never publicly suggested (either overtly or by inference) that her parents stored her body in a freezer or hid it in a coffin?
It's not in his book, which is what you said. It's not in 'Madeleine', which is what the thread is about.
If you wish to continue feel free. but you might need to find the cites.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 09:18:35 PM
It's not in his book, which is what you said. It's not in 'Madeleine', which is what the thread is about.
If you wish to continue feel free. but you might need to find the cites.
Before I do could you please just answer this question I asked you before (note: I never actually mentioned Amaral or his book), it's more about the principle of rights, and what people do and don't have a right to say that I'm interested in exploring with you): "whilst we're on the subject of "rights", do you think anyone has the right to suggest that someone else hid their child's body in a fridge or a coffin in a church without providing any actual evidence for this?"
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2016, 10:28:28 PM
Before I do could you please just answer this question I asked you before (note: I never actually mentioned Amaral or his book), it's more about the principle of rights, and what people do and don't have a right to say that I'm interested in exploring with you): "whilst we're on the subject of "rights", do you think anyone has the right to suggest that someone else hid their child's body in a fridge or a coffin in a church without providing any actual evidence for this?"
Your question really gets to the nub of why English libel law places the onus on the person who makes a statement to establish its truth, rather than on the person accused to establish its untruth.
The McCanns, really, shouldn't have to prove that they didn't feign an abduction or dump Madeleine's body anywhere.
It should be for Amaral to prove that they did.
By English law it would be.
And if he could (in either country) the McCanns would be in jail.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 10:30:50 PM
It sounds more like a fictional story rather than real life doesn't it. An author may say this about his characters in a novel. An investigating police officer may think up these scenarios but should he say them publicly? Good questions Alfie. I must admit when I heard Goncalo say the McCanns could have had Madeleine cremated by hiding her in a coffin I was quite shocked.
So provide the cite that shows an investigating police officer said these things.
Amaral was out of the PJ when his book came out, so he was not an investigating police officer at the time you claim he said this. You claim it without providing a supporting cite, so that forum members can check what was actually said and in what context.
You are 1) into libel territory again and 2) seriously off-topic. Does this have anything whatsoever to do with a line from Kate's book?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2016, 10:37:01 PM
Your question really gets to the nub of why English libel law places the onus on the person who makes a statement to establish its truth, rather than on the person accused to establish its untruth.
The McCanns, really, shouldn't have to prove that they didn't feign an abduction or dump Madeleine's body anywhere.
It should be for Amaral to prove that they did.
By English law it would be.
And if he could (in either country) the McCanns would be in jail.
I was planning not to post but you've shown a real flaw in your thinking Ferryman for you said the McCanns would be in jail, but Alfie just said "someone" put their daughter's body in the freezer or "someone" put her in the coffin. There would need to be proof that that "someone" was one/both of the McCanns in your case additionally too.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 10:38:05 PM
Your question really gets to the nub of why English libel law places the onus on the person who makes a statement to establish its truth, rather than on the person accused to establish its untruth.
The McCanns, really, shouldn't have to prove that they didn't feign an abduction or dump Madeleine's body anywhere.
It should be for Amaral to prove that they did.
By English law it would be.
And if he coudld (in either country) the McCanns would be in jail.
What's very hard to understand is how someone could defend a person's right to make outrageous and unevidenced public accusations about Kate but at the same time claim that Kate "had no right whatsoever to suggest that people were scared to speak against Amaral". Bizarro.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2016, 10:52:11 PM
So provide the cite that shows an investigating police officer said these things.
Amaral was out of the PJ when his book came out, so he was not an investigating police officer at the time you claim he said this. You claim it without providing a supporting cite, so that forum members can check what was actually said and in what context.
You are 1) into libel territory again and 2) seriously off-topic. Does this have anything whatsoever to do with a line from Kate's book?
Page 414 of Madeleine by Kate McCann: "Isabel suggested that first of all we should apply for an injunction against Amaral's book and the DVD of his documentary with the aim of preventing the distribution and further repetition of his damaging theories.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 19, 2016, 11:08:38 PM
Not exactly about Kate's book but is the campaign shop still active?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:12:38 PM
Here is part of an interview with Amaral which is full of his crappy speculations
Q - What is your opinion?
A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead. Trying to find out the date of the switch, some details, but we were on the way. The Irish [witness] was about to arrive in Portugal, but everything was delayed too much, he even received external pressures. In the end, he didn't testify for the Police.
Q – They [McCanns] have appeared in all the media to announce the disappearance of their daughter and if it ends up that they have done it, what are they, psychopaths?
A – No, they are human. If the McCanns admit that their daughter is dead, they can no longer collect money from the Maddie fund, and that's a lot of money, over one million pounds. That's why they say that the girl was abducted.
Q - What if they do not want to lose hope? It all seems very morbid.
A - It is. If they admit that she is dead they will lose their style of life. They are human, not psychopaths.
Q - You said that the girl was frozen.
A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, a similar situation happened with that of shopping bags, which melt, and then the water is transferred to the car.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 11:13:14 PM
Page 414 of Madeleine by Kate McCann: "Isabel suggested that first of all we should apply for an injunction against Amaral's book and the DVD of his documentary with the aim of preventing the distribution and further repetition of his damaging theories.
That rather interests me because it suggests Team McCann was unaware of the documentary in the pipeline i.e. that no one in Team McCann was monitoring Portuguese media developments.
Before anyone gets their nose out of joint on my comment, I simply thought that Team McCann extended to monitoring all major developments. Yet it would appear, judging by this, that Portuguese media was not on the agenda, at least until they (Portuguese media) had already acted.
That implies that the Team McCann effort in Portugal was re-active rather than pro-active. Perhaps there will be more clarification in future posts.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:16:10 PM
Could you only respond to my posts if your are going to provide an answer? Thanks ever so.
Something tells me you already knew the answer before you asked the question. There's a simple way to find out if the shop is currently active and that is to go and click on the link. As far as I know, no one here visits the shop on a daily basis or is responsible for maintaining it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 19, 2016, 11:32:46 PM
Something tells me you already knew the answer before you asked the question. There's a simple way to find out if the shop is currently active and that is to go and click on the link. As far as I know, no one here visits the shop on a daily basis or is responsible for maintaining it.
I'm browsing on an iPad and the links don't always work. That's why I asked.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:36:35 PM
I'm browsing on an iPad and the links don't always work. That's why I asked.
Genuine question - why were you trying to access the shop? You obviously have no intention of ever buying anything so what's the fascination? As a McCann supporter I've probably looked at that page once or twice in the last 5 years.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:39:24 PM
Amaral repeating idle gossip he picked up from a journo - on national media. What right does he have to do this, if Kate has no right whatsover to suggest that people (in the abstract) were afraid of speaking out against him?
Interviewer:You believe that they conserved it in a freezer all that time? Where?
Amaral: There is a journalist who says that he saw the McCanns enter a block of apartments close to the beach, in the month of June… But we do not know in which flat they were. It is a building for tourists and they passed many people
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2016, 11:40:32 PM
Here is part of an interview with Amaral which is full of his crappy speculations
Q - What is your opinion?
A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead. Trying to find out the date of the switch, some details, but we were on the way. The Irish [witness] was about to arrive in Portugal, but everything was delayed too much, he even received external pressures. In the end, he didn't testify for the Police.
Q – They [McCanns] have appeared in all the media to announce the disappearance of their daughter and if it ends up that they have done it, what are they, psychopaths?
A – No, they are human. If the McCanns admit that their daughter is dead, they can no longer collect money from the Maddie fund, and that's a lot of money, over one million pounds. That's why they say that the girl was abducted.
Q - What if they do not want to lose hope? It all seems very morbid.
A - It is. If they admit that she is dead they will lose their style of life. They are human, not psychopaths.
Q - You said that the girl was frozen.
A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, a similar situation happened with that of shopping bags, which melt, and then the water is transferred to the car.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html
If the original interview is still up there, perhaps I will find enough time to go through the interview in Portuguese, providing I have the stomach for it.
For the moment here is the supposed English translation (which looks to me to be struggling a la 'nuclear mission' - what?)
"Was anything done about the church where the McCanns spent so much time and to which they had the key? (identified reader)
There were never any motives to question the Catholic church. There is no indice that points towards the child being there, at least up to the moment when she was transported in the car. Even because there are no freezers there, or cold spots that would allow for the body to be kept at that location."
I cannot find a mention of a coffin or a cremation in the link. Did we have a link to such a source the last time we discussed the body-in-a-coffin idea? I really cannot remember.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:43:44 PM
No "ifs" or "buts" or "maybes" in Amaral's response here - this is presented not as theory but as fact:
Q:Do you know what happened to Madeleine?
Amaral: Madeleine died in the apartment on the night of the disappearance. It is complicated to be sure how she died because there are many indications. What is certain is that the girl woke up, the girl has disappeared and that behind the sofa there was cadaver odour and human blood.
What right does Amaral have to say these things, if Kate has no right whatsoever to voice her feelings about the fact that no one in Portugal seemed remotely interested in vigorously challenging Amaral's accusations?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 19, 2016, 11:47:42 PM
In which Amaral outright accuses all 9 of the Tapas group of a cover-up:
Q: Do you believe that we will know what happened to Maddie one day? Will we get to know the truth?
Amaral: Yes. There were 9 people in this Holiday Group. Maybe they do not know that the girl is dead, but they could have received instructions about what to say, such as "you went to the room and you saw the girl", however they know that this is not true. By that means the case could be re-opened; one day the full truth could be known
What right does this man have to impugn these 9 people, if Kate has no right whatsoever to voice her opinions as she saw them concerning the lack of rigorous challenge to Amaral's shocking accusations?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2016, 12:03:22 AM
Genuine question - why were you trying to access the shop? You obviously have no intention of ever buying anything so what's the fascination? As a McCann supporter I've probably looked at that page once or twice in the last 5 years.
Ideal curiosity.
A question for you. Why do you think that with OG coming to an end next April the McCanns have, it would seem, stop taking donations if they are planning again to fund their own investigation?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 12:09:22 AM
Apparently it was in the paper in Portugal: http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2016/04/investigate-incinerated-body-thesis.html
Quote
by Sérgio A. Vitorino, Tânia Laranjo
Gonçalo Amaral, the former coordinator of the Judiciary Police who investigated the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in May 2007, in the Algarve, is very clear: "With the failure of all the investigations and the millions spent, which only wanted to discredit our line of investigation [that Maddie died accidentally and the parents concealed the body], it is now time to refocus the investigation."
Gonçalo Amaral said yesterday to CM that it should now be done in Portugal "the reconstruction that was never carried out and the laboratorial analysis of evidence which was never truly analysed, such as the hairs in the boot of the car where Madeleine's bodily fluids were found".
The retired investigator also stated that it is necessary to follow leads like the "incineration of Madeleine's body inside a coffin of a British subject" and to access the medical records of the girl in the UK, which has never been allowed.
in Correio da Manhã, April 24, 2016
Short transcript on this topic from CM Special: "Maddie, the Mystery"
Anchor João Ferreira - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one.
Anchor - ... in this book...
Gonçalo Amaral - No, in that book there isn't anything concerning what we just saw me saying on the news piece that was shown. Because these are elements, these are information that appeared afterwards and were never investigated. It's just an hypothesis, and when considering that hypothesis...
Anchor - An hypothesis that Madeleine's body could have been hidden, could have been incinerated, right?
Gonçalo Amaral - There's an information here, in the police, that mentions that. That in a night, three figures were seen carrying a bag, entering the church...
Anchor - In the Praia da Luz church.
Gonçalo Amaral - In that church was a coffin of a woman, a woman from the United Kingdom...
Anchor - Of a British woman.
Gonçalo Amaral - ... and in the following day that coffin was transferred to Ferreira do Alentejo to be incinerated. But no one is saying that the parents did that, or saying who did that. It's something that someone who is on the field investigating has to ascertain, must investigate thoroughly.
Anchor - But you concede that hypothesis, that possibility of Madeleine's cadaver being taken to the church, and then incinerated is a plausible hypothesis...
Gonçalo Amaral - We're practically starting by the end, first is the disappearance, if you allow me to explain, to explain to the viewers... [overlapping speech]
Anchor - I'll allow you, but just so not to lose this train of thought, is this hypothesis plausible for you?
Gonçalo Amaral - It is plausible, and I say plausible in this sense, that that body would fit underneath the cadaver that was already there.
Anchor - And it would fit?
Gonçalo Amaral - It would, yes. At the time, when I was already out of the Judiciary Police I obtained the opinion of people that dealt with that, of funeral agencies, and they said that it was a possibility. It's an opinion that is not officialized but it's a possibility. If it happened like that or not, we don't know, there are several hypotheses to make a body disappear.
OK they are hypotheses and that is what I said. A investigating detective is allowed to make up these hypotheses in his mind or notes, but should he air them in public? But there was a video where he says this in his own words.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 20, 2016, 12:10:21 AM
@Faithlilly
The link to the online shop works for me.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
Apparently it was in the paper in Portugal: http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2016/04/investigate-incinerated-body-thesis.html OK they are hypotheses and that is what I said. A investigating detective is allowed to make up these hypotheses in his mind or notes, but should he air them in public? But there was a video where he says this in his own words.
Irrespective of the Portuguese, the English translation is simple enough.
"Short transcript on this topic from CM Special: "Maddie, the Mystery"
Anchor João Ferreira - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one."
Correio da Manha is a TV station in Portugal as well as a newspaper. It is obvious the interview was on the TV side.
Amaral says the line that an extra body was placed in a coffin should be investigated, not that it happened. Nor does he finger the McCanns as body placers. And in 2014 he was about 6 years away from being an investigative officer.
Need I continue?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 20, 2016, 12:37:03 AM
A question for you. Why do you think that with OG coming to an end next April the McCanns have, it would seem, stop taking donations if they are planning again to fund their own investigation?
Ah ?
Is that so? How interesting
£5%4%
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 12:39:07 AM
Irrespective of the Portuguese, the English translation is simple enough.
"Short transcript on this topic from CM Special: "Maddie, the Mystery"
Anchor João Ferreira - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one."
Correio da Manha is a TV station in Portugal as well as a newspaper. It is obvious the interview was on the TV side.
Amaral says the line that an extra body was placed in a coffin should be investigated, not that it happened. Nor does he finger the McCanns as body placers. And in 2014 he was about 6 years away from being an investigative officer.
Need I continue?
You would know about the structure of the paper or TV. But iirc the YT was clear that he is talking about the McCanns and MBM but that is only from memory and it was translated (on screen) as well, for I can't understand Portuguese yet.
I never said this happened but that he proposed it as a hypothesis.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 01:30:56 AM
Shining what is the background to this quote? http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/hidden-evidence.html
Quote
The former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will face again today Gerry and Kate McCann at the Palácio da Justiça in Lisbon, for another hearing session of the trial in which the McCann couple demands 1,2 million euros for damages for the publication of the book 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira' [Maddie, The Truth of the Lie] written by Gonçalo Amaral. In the book, the former coordinator of the PJ sustains the thesis that the parents are responsible for the disappearance of the girls and the concealment of her body.
Gonçalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead.
"The girl's parents had a key to church, in that church a vigil took place a month after the disappearance. According to information, the child's body could have been placed in the coffin, at the feet of the woman that was later cremated".
He concluded by saying, "The mystery will only be over when they stop protecting the McCann couple. Only then we will learn the truth".
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 01:38:19 AM
Here is even another version that links the hire car to the cremation as well as blaming the British! http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9835-british-police-hiding-evidence-in-maddie-case
Quote
Madeleine McCann "cremated in another person's funeral" Post sallypelt on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:39 am
I don't know If this has already been posted. It's been taken from today's Corrieo da Manha
Gonçalo Amaral says that information provided by a woman who saw Maddie's father walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club holiday resort in Praia da Luz, Algarve, May 3, 2007 (seven years ago), a witness emerged: a British tourist who said she saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by the former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared.
"We tried to recover this testimony and the documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Still do not know who this person is and where it is," said Goncalo Amaral. Today, the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will meet up again with Gerry and Kate in the Justice Palace, in Lisbon, since it will continue the trial in which the British couple seeks EUR 1.2 million compensation for publishing the book 'Maddie, The Truth of the Lie', written by Goncalo Amaral, in defending the thesis that parents are responsible for the disappearance of the girl and the concealment of the body (see box). Goncalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead. "The girl's parents had the key of the church and in the same church a funeral a month after the disappearance was performed. According to some reports, the child could well go to the feet of this woman who was going to be cremated," further explained Gonçalo Amaral.
Could this be the reason why the priest felt "let down" by the McCann's?
Last edited by sallypelt on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
sallypelt
Posts : 3234 Join date : 2012-11-10
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 01:41:56 AM
Here's a reply from the McCanns to these hypotheses: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gerry-kate-mccann-furious-claims-3707478
Quote
Gerry and Kate McCann furious at claims they hid daughter Madeleine's body in coffin
Also "Maddie's parents' anguish over disgraced detective's coffin claims" http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-parents-hid-body-7277975
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 20, 2016, 01:49:08 AM
You would know about the structure of the paper or TV. But iirc the YT was clear that he is talking about the McCanns and MBM but that is only from memory and it was translated (on screen) as well, for I can't understand Portuguese yet.
I never said this happened but that he proposed it as a hypothesis.
Not in this he didn't. He said it was just one alternative to be pursued.
These happen all the time in Luz. I remember shortly after the time of the OG 2014 excavation of Luz, some red top came out with the sensational story that there was a well in the vicinity that OG had been digging. It was attributed to an ex-SY officer of high rank now living in or around Luz.
The alleged well was considerably to the east of Luz.
For some reason, DCI Retired was allegedly aware that the well had not been checked in 2007. Plus DCI Retired was aware that it was used as a dumping ground by local criminals. DCI Retired did not explain how he knew of this, but the PJ, the GNR, the locals, and the investigative media were all blissfully ignorant. Or why he (DCI R)did not report this gem in 2007, but decided to wait for the OG dig.
Thrust into the mix, DCI Retired claimed the involvement of gypsies who were known to camp out this particular piece of land.
After this exciting report, the truth began to set in.
One of the local newspapers sent in a reporter. I cannot remember which one did it, but the results were simple.
The landowner said he had never had instances of gypsies camping on his land.
And the reporter followed the directions of DCI Retired to check out the well. The only problem being, where X marks the spot, there wasn't a well. Not a well in sight.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 02:42:07 AM
Interesting story SiL. Thanks for not ticking me off. 8((()*/ In my scientific language " one alternative to be pursued" = a hypothesis . In science a hypothesis has to have tests that can prove it wrong. It is proved wrong by proving the null hypothesis right. Like if there is no well that is the null hypothesis of there is a well. And so on. There could still be a well somewhere else but that becomes another hypothesis. If there were enough linking hypotheses one could formulate a theory. I think he got close to having a theory but maybe he jumped the gun a bit. Personally I think he tried hard (even if he had long lunches). What test would he have to apply to see if MBM was cremated along with the older lady - maybe there would be small teeth amongst the ashes. (I've never studied cremains.) Were the ashes still available?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 08:11:51 AM
So what's the general consensus? Did Amaral have the right to say what he did in the media or not? If so, then is there any reason why should Kate be denied the right to say whatever she feels like in her book?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 20, 2016, 08:28:25 AM
So what's the general consensus? Did Amaral have the right to say what he did in the media or not? If so, then is there any reason why should Kate be denied the right to say whatever she feels like in her book?
In so far as I can make sense of it, the key point is that Kate, in exercising her right, expunges rights she (and Gerry) would (otherwise) have to object to Amaral's lies and distortions ....
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2016, 10:42:03 AM
So what's the general consensus? Did Amaral have the right to say what he did in the media or not? If so, then is there any reason why should Kate be denied the right to say whatever she feels like in her book?
Yes and no.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 11:01:14 AM
Quite. IMO Kate didn't go nearly far enough in excoriating her persecutors in her book, and throwing in a bit of unsubstantiated rumour and speculation for good measure. Maybe she's saving it all up for volume 2 8((()*/
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2016, 11:08:12 AM
So what's the general consensus? Did Amaral have the right to say what he did in the media or not? If so, then is there any reason why should Kate be denied the right to say whatever she feels like in her book?
Someone convince me both parties did not write books to show the author in the best light and the "opposing side" in the worst light rather than be on some high moral plane as purported. Sr Amaral's book has the advantage that it was declared in court there was nothing in the book that was not in the files and the book did not infringe the McCanns rights.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
Quite. IMO Kate didn't go nearly far enough in excoriating her persecutors in her book, and throwing in a bit of unsubstantiated rumour and speculation for good measure. Maybe she's saving it all up for volume 2 8((()*/
The twins are going to need to be tough to read about their Mummy and Daddy. So the McCanns should try and write a bestseller. Goncalo would have run out of ammo.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 11:30:47 AM
Quite. IMO Kate didn't go nearly far enough in excoriating her persecutors in her book, and throwing in a bit of unsubstantiated rumour and speculation for good measure. Maybe she's saving it all up for volume 2 8((()*/
I think the key difference is that Amaral was speculating about the case. Kate was speculating about unnamed, uninvolved members of Portugal's population.
Turn it around; The UK media alone would have been outraged if Amaral had said "Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority [in the UK] who could see through the abduction story. Why were they all staying quiet? Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out?"
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 11:39:12 AM
I think the key difference is that Amaral was speculating about the case. Kate was speculating about unnamed, uninvolved members of Portugal's population.
Turn it around; The UK media alone would have been outraged if Amaral had said "Surely there were intelligent and knowledgeable people in positions of authority [in the UK] who could see through the abduction story. Why were they all staying quiet? Was it because it wasn’t their problem? Were they scared to speak out?"
How is that any more offensive or outrageous than accusing specific individuals of heinous crimes including, cover up, body occultation and fraud?
Whilst we're at it can you answer my question about rights please? Would Amaral have had no right whatsoever to say the above in your view?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Carana on September 20, 2016, 11:43:32 AM
Someone convince me both parties did not write books to show the author in the best light and the "opposing side" in the worst light rather than be on some high moral plane as purported. Sr Amaral's book has the advantage that it was declared in court there was nothing in the book that was not in the files and the book did not infringe the McCanns rights.
Regarding the underlined bit.... are you sure about that??
That's not my recollection.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 12:06:54 PM
The twins are going to need to be tough to read about their Mummy and Daddy. So the McCanns should try and write a bestseller. Goncalo would have run out of ammo.
I'd suggest a book about Amaral's career focusing on the cock-ups in the McCann case, the perjury conviction, the bizarre way in which the Cipriano case was conducted, the alleged marital violence and infidelities and drunkenness etc. No one would be able to complain that it wasn't Kates right to publish such a book, surely?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 20, 2016, 12:19:11 PM
Quote
Someone convince me both parties did not write books to show the author in the best light and the "opposing side" in the worst light rather than be on some high moral plane as purported. Sr Amaral's book has the advantage that it was declared in court there was nothing in the book that was not in the files and the book did not infringe the McCanns rights.
Heaps in the book is not in the files.
Tell me where, in the files, it says Amaral contradicted and "corrected" Prior on interpretation of the forensic files?
Tell me where, in the files, it says the FSS produced a "preliminary" report and a "final" report?
Tell me where, in the files, it says that Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead.
That's just for starters.
No, what seems to have smoothed way for Amaral to claim his ill-gotten gains is Kate's book.
Simple as that.
Amaral quit the PJ to free himself up to write any (otherwise) libellous twaddle he wanted and quitting the PJ gave him precisely that latitude ....
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 12:49:17 PM
How is that any more offensive or outrageous than accusing specific individuals of heinous crimes including, cover up, body occultation and fraud?
Whilst we're at it can you answer my question about rights please? Would Amaral have had no right whatsoever to say the above in your view?
My opinion is that no-one has the right to make unfounded allegations. The difference imo is that had Amaral done it there would have been outrage in the UK. I can imagine the headlines;
Disgraced Portuguese ex cop accuses authorities in the UK of being scared to speak out against the McCanns
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 20, 2016, 01:02:21 PM
My opinion is that no-one has the right to make unfounded allegations. The difference imo is that had Amaral done it there would have been outrage in the UK. I can imagine the headlines;
Disgraced Portuguese ex cop accuses authorities in the UK of being scared to speak out against the McCanns
Do you dispute that Amaral is disgraced?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2016, 01:05:49 PM
I'd suggest a book about Amaral's career focusing on the cock-ups in the McCann case, the perjury conviction, the bizarre way in which the Cipriano case was conducted, the alleged marital violence and infidelities and drunkenness etc. No one would be able to complain that it wasn't Kates right to publish such a book, surely?
Alleged being the word Alfie. There is nothing to back up the rumours of infidelity and drunkeness but the pro- McCann rumour mill.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Carana on September 20, 2016, 01:29:45 PM
My opinion is that no-one has the right to make unfounded allegations. The difference imo is that had Amaral done it there would have been outrage in the UK. I can imagine the headlines;
Disgraced Portuguese ex cop accuses authorities in the UK of being scared to speak out against the McCanns
If it is your opinion that no one has the right to make unfounded allegations then surely your admonishment must also extend to Amaral?
IIRC Amaral has already criticised the UK authorities along similar lines to the imaginary headline you've written above...?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 01:33:07 PM
Alleged being the word Alfie. There is nothing to back up the rumours of infidelity and drunkeness but the pro- McCann rumour mill.
Shouldn't be any reason why Kate shouldn't profit from writing about them in a book is there?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2016, 01:38:09 PM
Why should she want to?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 01:42:23 PM
I don't recall their being mass outrage in this country when Amaral said this last year:
When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out.
“Don’t forget that the British secret services followed the case right from the beginning. I don’t know if that information will be made available but if it’s like the United States, it takes years to have access to confidential information.”
There he is alleging a British cover up at the highest level, and his evidence is - what exactly? Did the country go into meltdown over his remarks? I think most people never heard them, or if they did they rolled their eyes at this absurd little man.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 01:47:46 PM
Regarding the underlined bit.... are you sure about that??
That's not my recollection.
OK fair doos so you do not recall that bit. Lets dump that and deal with my basic postulation. Now convince me of the first sentence. That is my sticking point. Why do the red team think Kate's book is the second coming and that Sr Amarals book is a pack of lies and the blue team think vice versa ?. I don't see any rational reasoning for it other than Winwood, Clapton & Baker ie Blind Faith. "You" have been arguing the same point from the same stances for about 5 years and can now only keep repeating yourselves to no convincing end.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2016, 01:52:46 PM
Someone convince me both parties did not write books to show the author in the best light and the "opposing side" in the worst light rather than be on some high moral plane as purported. Sr Amaral's book has the advantage that it was declared in court there was nothing in the book that was not in the files and the book did not infringe the McCanns rights.
There was nothing in Kate McCann's book which could be even remotely construed as a character assassination or defamation of anyone. The same cannot be said of Goncalo Amaral's book ... although it does seem that writing defamatory, unfounded accusations is acceptable in Portuguese courts.
Perhaps Kate should have written her book in Portugal and used a Portuguese publisher. Maybe she could do that for the next one.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2016, 01:56:32 PM
There was nothing in Kate McCann's book which could be even remotely construed as a character assassination or defamation of anyone. The same cannot be said of Goncalo Amaral's book ... although it does seem that writing defamatory, unfounded accusations is acceptable in Portuguese courts.
Perhaps Kate should have written her book in Portugal and used a Portuguese publisher. Maybe she could do that for the next one.
Why don't you read my original post and reply to what I said and not what you say I said or think I said or what you you want to argue with. That MO is becoming tiresome in the extreme.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 02:07:55 PM
We would later hear from the British police that it took until 10am on Friday, almost twelve hours after the alarm was raised, for roadblocks and checks to be put in place. [Madeleine]
The GNR initially thought woke and wandered. After less than one hour they called the PJ in. It took almost another hour for them to arrive. They also thought woke and wandered at first, but an hour later;
However, a little more than an hour later, about 02.00/02.30, as the child had not been found, he decided to contact SEF at Faro airport with the aim of alerting them in case anyone would board accompanied by some child, whoever she was and those accompanying her should be duly identified, however the various calls made were not attended. In the face of this situation I contacted the Faro Station from the police and told them what was going on and asked them to alert the SEF. I also decided to alert the GNR in Lagos so that they would send out a warning so that the car and foot patrols that were out on the ground would pay attention and identify cars with people out driving at that time who were accompanied by a child (children). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MANUEL_QUEIROZ.htm
Why were the police slow in accepting the abduction thesis? Firstly the calls from OC seem to have referred to a child having disappeared. At first contact Gerry said abducted, but they could also see the widespead searches being conducted. It was obvious that the holiday company and their guests were searching for a woke and wandered child. On the face of it, the parents hadn't convinced the OC people of the abduction or they wouldn't be searching. Holidaymakers who joined the search had the impression they were searching for a lost, not an abducted child. If the group hadn't convinced those who spoke the same language it seems harsh to blame those who didn't.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2016, 02:09:26 PM
Why don't you read my original post and reply to what I said and not what you say I said or think I said or what you you want to argue with. That MO is becoming tiresome in the extreme.
You have made that same criticism once or twice before, Alice. I think your problem may not be so much that I address the points as you would wish that you raise in your posts but that I address them too well for your liking.
The trick is not to complain ... but to counter 8)-)))
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
We would later hear from the British police that it took until 10am on Friday, almost twelve hours after the alarm was raised, for roadblocks and checks to be put in place. [Madeleine]
The GNR initially thought woke and wandered. After less than one hour they called the PJ in. It took almost another hour for them to arrive. They also thought woke and wandered at first, but an hour later;
However, a little more than an hour later, about 02.00/02.30, as the child had not been found, he decided to contact SEF at Faro airport with the aim of alerting them in case anyone would board accompanied by some child, whoever she was and those accompanying her should be duly identified, however the various calls made were not attended. In the face of this situation I contacted the Faro Station from the police and told them what was going on and asked them to alert the SEF. I also decided to alert the GNR in Lagos so that they would send out a warning so that the car and foot patrols that were out on the ground would pay attention and identify cars with people out driving at that time who were accompanied by a child (children). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MANUEL_QUEIROZ.htm
Why were the police slow in accepting the abduction thesis? Firstly the calls from OC seem to have referred to a child having disappeared. At first contact Gerry said abducted, but they could also see the widespead searches being conducted. It was obvious that the holiday company and their guests were searching for a woke and wandered child. On the face of it, the parents hadn't convinced the OC people of the abduction or they wouldn't be searching. Holidaymakers who joined the search had the impression they were searching for a lost, not an abducted child. If the group hadn't convinced those who spoke the same language it seems harsh to blame those who didn't.
Oh, I see. The police didn't immediately take charge of the situation when they arrived and make their own assessment.
Madeleine was being searched for = 'woke and wandered' so no rush there then.
If only Madeleine's parents had been able to 'convince' the holiday staff of her abduction ... all would have been well.
I think you are labouring for justification - any justification at all - to excuse and to blame.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Carana on September 20, 2016, 02:17:37 PM
If it is your opinion that no one has the right to make unfounded allegations then surely your admonishment must also extend to Amaral?
IIRC Amaral has already criticised the UK authorities along similar lines to the imaginary headline you've written above...?
This comes to mind....
FRAUD OR ABUSE OF TRUST?
During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter’s disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCAnn couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present.
(*Note: analysis of difficult latent prints - latent from the Latin latere, to hide, to lie.)
Taken individually, many of his spoutings can be understood as his own interpretation on events, I suppose, however bizarre some may seem. Taken together, however, coupled with his proclaimed "expertise", I'm not that suprised that a large proportion of the tabloid aficionados believe that he knew what he was talking about.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 02:24:46 PM
During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter’s disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCAnn couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present.
(*Note: analysis of difficult latent prints - latent from the Latin latere, to hide, to lie.)
Taken individually, many of his spoutings can be understood as his own interpretation on events, I suppose, however bizarre some may seem. Taken together, however, coupled with his proclaimed "expertise", I'm not that suprised that a large proportion of the tabloid aficionados believe that he knew what he was talking about.
Yes precisely. 8((()*/
It seems G-Unit is keen to change the subject now so...never mind.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 03:05:39 PM
Oh, I see. The police didn't immediately take charge of the situation when they arrived and make their own assessment.
Madeleine was being searched for = 'woke and wandered' so no rush there then.
If only Madeleine's parents had been able to 'convince' the holiday staff of her abduction ... all would have been well.
I think you are labouring for justification - any justification at all - to excuse and to blame.
Thank you for your opinion. My opinion is that expecting the Portuguese police [or any other police] to accept the word of civilians as to what crime has been committed is unrealistic. Once the GNR arrived they took charge, largely by expanding the searches. Within 45-55 minutes they called in the PJ; not bad considering the language barrier. The PJ then did their bit; clearing the apartment and learning what had gone before. They ordered airport and road traffic checks within a reasonable time frame in my opinion, which is the point from the book I was addressing.
If you want examples of labouring to excuse and blame there are plenty; cadaver dogs alerting to fertilizer in gardens, pork chops and roadkill are classics.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2016, 03:11:30 PM
You have made that same criticism once or twice before, Alice. I think your problem may not be so much that I address the points as you would wish that you raise in your posts but that I address them too well for your liking.
The trick is not to complain ... but to counter 8)-)))
When I was a kid my daddy told me self publicists were bullshitters to be avoided. Nothing in my life has ever shown my daddy's advice to be wanting in any way..............including concerning those who believe they are they brains in this baileywick.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 03:13:49 PM
We would later hear from the British police that it took until 10am on Friday, almost twelve hours after the alarm was raised, for roadblocks and checks to be put in place. [Madeleine]
The GNR initially thought woke and wandered. After less than one hour they called the PJ in. It took almost another hour for them to arrive. They also thought woke and wandered at first, but an hour later;
However, a little more than an hour later, about 02.00/02.30, as the child had not been found, he decided to contact SEF at Faro airport with the aim of alerting them in case anyone would board accompanied by some child, whoever she was and those accompanying her should be duly identified, however the various calls made were not attended. In the face of this situation I contacted the Faro Station from the police and told them what was going on and asked them to alert the SEF. I also decided to alert the GNR in Lagos so that they would send out a warning so that the car and foot patrols that were out on the ground would pay attention and identify cars with people out driving at that time who were accompanied by a child (children). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MANUEL_QUEIROZ.htm
Why were the police slow in accepting the abduction thesis? Firstly the calls from OC seem to have referred to a child having disappeared. At first contact Gerry said abducted, but they could also see the widespead searches being conducted. It was obvious that the holiday company and their guests were searching for a woke and wandered child. On the face of it, the parents hadn't convinced the OC people of the abduction or they wouldn't be searching. Holidaymakers who joined the search had the impression they were searching for a lost, not an abducted child. If the group hadn't convinced those who spoke the same language it seems harsh to blame those who didn't.
What do you mean by this exactly? Are you saying that if the OC people had been convinced Madeleine had been abducted that no one would have bothered to go out looking for her...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 03:20:26 PM
There was nothing in Kate McCann's book which could be even remotely construed as a character assassination or defamation of anyone. The same cannot be said of Goncalo Amaral's book ... although it does seem that writing defamatory, unfounded accusations is acceptable in Portuguese courts.
Perhaps Kate should have written her book in Portugal and used a Portuguese publisher. Maybe she could do that for the next one.
It was not found to be defamatory in any Portuguese court. The lower court was only able to rule against Amaral, not the publisher or the documentary maker. That was because the judge said he did not enjoy the same freedom of speech as the others. Why? Because his, she said, was restricted by his duties as a retired policeman. He lost because of who he was, not because of what he said. The Appeal judges disagreed.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2016, 03:43:33 PM
It was not found to be defamatory in any Portuguese court. The lower court was only able to rule against Amaral, not the publisher or the documentary maker. That was because the judge said he did not enjoy the same freedom of speech as the others. Why? Because his, she said, was restricted by his duties as a retired policeman. He lost because of who he was, not because of what he said. The Appeal judges disagreed.
Yes that is what I said ~ it seems that the Portuguese courts do not have a problem with writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Carana on September 20, 2016, 05:17:37 PM
It was not found to be defamatory in any Portuguese court. The lower court was only able to rule against Amaral, not the publisher or the documentary maker. That was because the judge said he did not enjoy the same freedom of speech as the others. Why? Because his, she said, was restricted by his duties as a retired policeman. He lost because of who he was, not because of what he said. The Appeal judges disagreed.
Amaral was deemed to be an expert with intimate knowledge / understanding of the case up until he was unceremoniously and very publicly dumped after a few months on the case.
There is a regulation governing the duties and privileges of former members of the judiciary (although it only explicitly mentions magistrates). The PJ is part of the judiciary - the hint is in the name of the police force.
However.... I can see (sort of) that an infraction of internal regulations may not be sufficient in a civil damages case, particularly when there is no empirical evidence of the extent to which his spoutings negatively affected public opinion.
Back on the other side, it is true that various tabloid outlets hinted heavily at parental involvement during his brief tenure. However, I haven't found anything specific in the legal codes concerning responsibility for "leaks"...
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2016, 05:39:59 PM
I don't recall their being mass outrage in this country when Amaral said this last year:
When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out.
“Don’t forget that the British secret services followed the case right from the beginning. I don’t know if that information will be made available but if it’s like the United States, it takes years to have access to confidential information.”
There he is alleging a British cover up at the highest level, and his evidence is - what exactly? Did the country go into meltdown over his remarks? I think most people never heard them, or if they did they rolled their eyes at this absurd little man.
But, but Alfie ....
Everything Amaral wrote is in the files.
Didn't you know?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2016, 06:41:15 PM
Yes that is what I said ~ it seems that the Portuguese courts do not have a problem with writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations.
Possibly because Portuguese judges know more about Portuguese law than people on Forums?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 07:36:04 PM
I'd suggest a book about Amaral's career focusing on the cock-ups in the McCann case, the perjury conviction, the bizarre way in which the Cipriano case was conducted, the alleged marital violence and infidelities and drunkenness etc. No one would be able to complain that it wasn't Kate's right to publish such a book, surely?
Especially since Amaral is qute capable of writing another book to address any issues where he feels he is misrepresented in her yet to be written second "tell all" best selling book. That method of redress is allowed by the established legal precedent of the Appeal Court. If he was likely to sue her she could pre-empt the claim by noting in the foreword that her first book was insufficient to address the defamation caused to her family by the "Truth of the Lie". Did the Appeal Court find that there was equal amounts of defamation caused to each party by the other? I don't remember reading that. So they can't claim it was because that is unproven.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 08:12:37 PM
What do you mean by this exactly? Are you saying that if the OC people had been convinced Madeleine had been abducted that no one would have bothered to go out looking for her...? &%+((£
What would be the point? If the front door was shut and the gates and back door shut she could not have woke and wandered, she must have been abducted because the window was open. Seems perfectly obvious to them it was an abduction (well to Kate at least). So why did her friends even go looking? She couldn't convince her friends or even Gerry to begin with, but they came around to her way of thinking by midnight.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 20, 2016, 09:09:22 PM
What would be the point? If the front door was shut and the gates and back door shut she could not have woke and wandered, she must have been abducted because the window was open. Seems perfectly obvious to them it was an abduction (well to Kate at least). So why did her friends even go looking? She couldn't convince her friends or even Gerry to begin with, but they came around to her way of thinking by midnight.
Faulty logic I'm afraid. A child that has been abducted could still be in the vicinity, could have been dumped, escaped, murdered, certainly worth looking for.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2016, 09:17:57 PM
When I was a kid my daddy told me self publicists were bullshitters to be avoided. Nothing in my life has ever shown my daddy's advice to be wanting in any way..............including concerning those who believe they are they brains in this baileywick.... ?{)(**
... and your post relates to the topic of the thread in what way?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 09:24:48 PM
Faulty logic I'm afraid. A child that has been abducted could still be in the vicinity, could have been dumped, escaped, murdered, certainly worth looking for.
You were right. I was deliberately using faulty logic to show how previous posts seemed to be illogical as well.
What about the bits in the book where he claims the British removed the files? The files are released and translated but some parts are removed before publication. This not impossible. But it is impossible for us web sleuths to verify. Is it possible sections were removed? Is Amaral correct?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 20, 2016, 09:25:37 PM
Possibly because Portuguese judges know more about Portuguese law than people on Forums?
It does seem odd that Portuguese courts have no problem with "writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations" but it is good of you to reinforce my post.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: ferryman on September 20, 2016, 09:30:01 PM
When I was a kid my daddy told me self publicists were bullshitters to be avoided. Nothing in my life has ever shown my daddy's advice to be wanting in any way..............including concerning those who believe they are they brains in this baileywick.... ?{)(**
Is not posting on message boards such as this self-publishing?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2016, 09:34:27 PM
Faulty logic I'm afraid. A child that has been abducted could still be in the vicinity, could have been dumped, escaped, murdered, certainly worth looking for.
When you really think about the enormity of the problem that the police are faced with if there is an abduction followed by a murder and disposal situation. Was this 100 meters away, 100 kms away or 1000 kms away from PDL, and in all directions including the sea, air and land. The entire police force in Portugal would get bogged down on just 1 missing girl if you tried to catch the person in the act.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 21, 2016, 12:24:39 AM
When I was a kid my daddy told me self publicists were bullshitters to be avoided. Nothing in my life has ever shown my daddy's advice to be wanting in any way..............including concerning those who believe they are they brains in this baileywick.... ?{)(**
Do not abuse Brietta. Her brain is second to none
How are your brain cells?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2016, 06:02:40 AM
Later the same month, Amaral was given an eighteen month suspended prison sentence in connection with a case in which three of his officers were accused of torture. ....Madeleine page 416.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 07:38:22 AM
It does seem odd that Portuguese courts have no problem with "writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations" but it is good of you to reinforce my post.
I don't think you understood. What I was trying to point out was that you may think Amaral's book contains "writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations" but that doesn't mean you're right.
You seem to believe that your opinion is superior to the legal knowledge and expertise of four Portuguese judges. On what basis, I wonder?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 21, 2016, 08:19:42 AM
I don't think you understood. What I was trying to point out was that you may think Amaral's book contains "writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations" but that doesn't mean you're right.
You seem to believe that your opinion is superior to the legal knowledge and expertise of four Portuguese judges. On what basis, I wonder?
On the basis of having read it I would imagine. Where in the ruling does the judge state that the book does not defame the McCanns with unfounded and preposterous accusations?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 21, 2016, 10:40:33 AM
I don't think you understood. What I was trying to point out was that you may think Amaral's book contains "writings which defame named individuals with unfounded and preposterous accusations" but that doesn't mean you're right.
You seem to believe that your opinion is superior to the legal knowledge and expertise of four Portuguese judges. On what basis, I wonder?
I would wager a good deal that Briettas knowledge of the happenings prior to the case ... and the dreadful goings on in them, is way superior to any Judges
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 21, 2016, 01:01:02 PM
I would wager a good deal that Briettas knowledge of the happenings prior to the case ... and the dreadful goings on in them, is way superior to any Judges
Why would you think that Sadie ?
How would Brietta have access to all records on the case ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 21, 2016, 01:02:34 PM
On the basis of having read it I would imagine. Where in the ruling does the judge state that the book does not defame the McCanns with unfounded and preposterous accusations?
No, Alfie.
The question is did the judge say that it did? She did not. Was Amaral ruled against because of what he wrote? He was not. Would she have ruled against him if he was an everyday Portuguese person instead of a retired police officer? She would not. Why did she find against him? Because in her opinion he didn't enjoy full freedom of speech, his was restricted by his previous occupation. The appeal court judges said it wasn't.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 21, 2016, 01:58:04 PM
The question is did the judge say that it did? She did not. Was Amaral ruled against because of what he wrote? He was not. Would she have ruled against him if he was an everyday Portuguese person instead of a retired police officer? She would not. Why did she find against him? Because in her opinion he didn't enjoy full freedom of speech, his was restricted by his previous occupation. The appeal court judges said it wasn't.
The judge wasn't asked to decide whether or not the book defamed the McCanns or was full of preposterous lies, therefore to say that Brietta is wrong about the book because of something the judge didn't pronounce upon is ridiculous IMO.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 02:23:55 PM
The judge wasn't asked to decide whether or not the book defamed the McCanns or was full of preposterous lies, therefore to say that Brietta is wrong about the book because of something the judge didn't pronounce upon is ridiculous IMO.
She may right in her opinion and in your opinion but how can opinions be objectively judged?
Some facts were objectively judged;
Does the documentary only contain facts that are also in the inquiry files?
(Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 02:40:50 PM
You were right. I was deliberately using faulty logic to show how previous posts seemed to be illogical as well.
What about the bits in the book where he claims the British removed the files? The files are released and translated but some parts are removed before publication. This not impossible. But it is impossible for us web sleuths to verify. Is it possible sections were removed? Is Amaral correct?
He is correct. Information was withheld at the request of the UK and some was withheld by the Portuguese;
She may right in her opinion and in your opinion but how can opinions be objectively judged?
Some facts were objectively judged;
Does the documentary only contain facts that are also in the inquiry files?
(Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
Well there you go then. "mostly" facts - and any facts which cannot be verified or are incomplete aren't facts are they? Amaral claims as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment - is that a fact in your view?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 03:29:07 PM
Well there you go then. "mostly" facts - and any fact which cannot be verified or are incomplete aren't facts are they? Amaral claims as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment - is that a fact in your view?
I thought we were discussing certain opinions, which I contended weren't facts. If you cannot demonstrate their factual nature then, as I said, they may be wrong.
As to the fact you mention, it's in the files;
The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 21, 2016, 04:44:23 PM
I thought we were discussing certain opinions, which I contended weren't facts. If you cannot demonstrate their factual nature then, as I said, they may be wrong.
As to the fact you mention, it's in the files;
The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Oh it must be true then.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 04:59:59 PM
She may right in her opinion and in your opinion but how can opinions be objectively judged?
Some facts were objectively judged;
Does the documentary only contain facts that are also in the inquiry files?
(Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat
Not true. In fact the complete opposite of the truth.
Quote from Amaral's book:
''JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT''.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 21, 2016, 05:44:36 PM
Well there you go then. "mostly" facts - and any facts which cannot be verified or are incomplete aren't facts are they? Amaral claims as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment - is that a fact in your view?
From the structure of the sentence there are two possible constructions that may be placed on it. If one chooses "the other" construction your argument falls flat on its kite. It's easy to appreciate why you chose the construction you did.......or maybe you didn't see there were two?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2016, 06:57:35 PM
Look, I know you don't like answering straight forward questions but could you please stop playing games - either answer them or go back to ignoring my questions like you did yesterday.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2016, 07:53:38 PM
Let's play the game - pick any sentence at random from Kate's book and attempt to show how it is "strange" it is and "makes no sense".
24
She did write in her book she envied the view from the apartments from the paynes who had a dangerous balcony but they didnt as they were on the ground floor...yeah right, it wasnt exactky GROUND was it ergo fabrication, her balcony was as dangerous as any
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2016, 11:11:53 PM
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what they did which was so different to the actions of the other 3 sets of parents whose children didn't go missing?
They left their back door open and they told strangers they were leaving their kids alone
The tapas 5 didnt do that
Thats the difference
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 21, 2016, 11:27:05 PM
They left their back door open and they told strangers they were leaving their kids alone
The tapas 5 didnt do that
Thats the difference
Who did the McCanns tell they'd left the patio door unlocked before Thurs 3rd? Whoever made the Tapas reservations told Reception that the children were going to be left (so not K or G) Do you have any evidence that, say, JT didn't tell the Gorrods about her own childcare arrangements?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2016, 11:34:07 PM
Who did the McCanns tell they'd left the patio door unlocked before Thurs 3rd? Whoever made the Tapas reservations told Reception that the children were going to be left (so not K or G) Do you have any evidence that, say, JT didn't tell the Gorrods about her own childcare arrangements?
Stop deflecting The mccanns told total strangers their kids were alone
When was the lasf time you did this
Stop protecting idiots or worse
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Who did the McCanns tell they'd left the patio door unlocked before Thurs 3rd? Whoever made the Tapas reservations told Reception that the children were going to be left (so not K or G) Do you have any evidence that, say, JT didn't tell the Gorrods about her own childcare arrangements?
i see you ignored my Original post about her saying they were in no danger balcony wisd being in "ground floor" Which wasnt a ground floor lol in reality so a LIE..they had a humungous drop from their BALCONY ergo Ms Mccann embroidere d the truth...why?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 21, 2016, 11:45:27 PM
Stop deflecting The mccanns told total strangers their kids were alone
When was the lasf time you did this
Stop protecting idiots or worse
I'm not deflecting. The fact is, the person who made the original bookings was the most guilty, as that allowed the information to be possibly shared covertly with other OC employees/locals/other holidaymakers. GM knew who he had told about his childcare arrangements. I am no doubt guilty of the most heinous childcare crimes according to the gospel of the perfect parenting brigade aka McCann sceptics so I will refrain from commenting on the last time I abandoned my children.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on September 21, 2016, 11:47:52 PM
i see you ignored my Original post about her saying they were in no danger balcony wisd being in "ground floor" Which wasnt a ground floor lol in reality so a LIE..they had a humungous drop from their BALCONY ergo Ms Mccann embroidere d the truth...why?
You addressed that comment to Alfie, not me. I only comment on invisible balcony railings.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 05:09:03 AM
i see you ignored my Original post about her saying they were in no danger balcony wisd being in "ground floor" Which wasnt a ground floor lol in reality so a LIE..they had a humungous drop from their BALCONY ergo Ms Mccann embroidere d the truth...why?
Are you referring to the unsafe balustrades again? How a kid who woke and wandered if they attempted to climb the balustrade could fall down even of the ground floor apartments.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2016, 08:24:14 AM
Was it that Madeleine died in apartment 5A as claimed by Travers? The report seems to claim it.
The 'fact' I was referring to was that the statement appeared in both the files and Amaral's book. It was the trial which referred to them as facts, not me, I haven't a clue if they are or not.
It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5931.0
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 22, 2016, 08:28:23 AM
It is always more comfortable when you don't have to address other opinions.
It's also much nicer not to be provoked and abused and wound up in the way that Mercury likes to do - which is one reason why I get far fewer penalty points these days. The last person to insult me to the point where I was rude back was SIL and so I received a warning. Now she's on ignore no more abuse from her to deal with - brilliant. 8((()*/ PS: in case you hadn't noticed I spend ALL my time here addressing others' opinions.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2016, 09:49:17 AM
It's also much nicer not to be provoked and abused and wound up in the way that Mercury likes to do - which is one reason why I get far fewer penalty points these days. The last person to insult me to the point where I was rude back was SIL and so I received a warning. Now she's on ignore no more abuse from her to deal with - brilliant. 8((()*/ PS: in case you hadn't noticed I spend ALL my time here addressing others' opinions.
It's only my opinion, so feel free to ignore, but from my point of view you seem to spend ALL your time asking questions. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 22, 2016, 09:54:59 AM
What's wrong with that? Isn't that what you're doing? Constantly questioning the McCanns' version of events?
there you go, 3 more questions for you to ignore, as is your wont! @)(++(*
Why should the Mccanns version of events be believed, when they are full of contradictions and altered accounts starting of course with the classic.................
LOCKED APARTMENT became UNLOCKED APARTMENT.
Those are mutually exclusive events. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2016, 11:07:49 AM
What's wrong with that? Isn't that what you're doing? Constantly questioning the McCanns' version of events?
there you go, 3 more questions for you to ignore, as is your wont! @)(++(*
Once again you are telling me what I do. That's just your opinion. Try questioning what I say rather than constantly telling me what you think I say and why you think I say it.
Remember; by publicising their version in the media, interviews and a book the McCanns [and their supporters] have to accept that others can question their version of events. It's not a forbidden subject.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 22, 2016, 01:14:22 PM
Once again you are telling me what I do. That's just your opinion. Try questioning what I say rather than constantly telling me what you think I say and why you think I say it.
Remember; by publicising their version in the media, interviews and a book the McCanns [and their supporters] have to accept that others can question their version of events. It's not a forbidden subject.
Of course it's my opinion, whose opinion should I be representing? You pick and choose which questions to answer, the ones that are harder for you to address you ignore, the last few pages of this thread is proof of that. IMO. << There, happy? I constantly question what (I think) you say - if I am wrong about what I think you say then maybe you're not making yourself clear - you have limitless opportunities to correct me, so please feel free to do so and I will re-phrase the question.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 22, 2016, 01:15:48 PM
Once again you are telling me what I do. That's just your opinion. Try questioning what I say rather than constantly telling me what you think I say and why you think I say it.
Remember; by publicising their version in the media, interviews and a book the McCanns [and their supporters] have to accept that others can question their version of events. It's not a forbidden subject.
Please point to any post I have made in which I claim that questioning the McCanns' version of events is or should be a forbidden subject. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2016, 02:59:44 PM
Please point to any post I have made in which I claim that questioning the McCanns' version of events is or should be a forbidden subject. Many thanks.
You seem to enjoy pointless arguments, I don't. I'll wait and give you examples as they occur so you can try to understand.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 22, 2016, 03:42:02 PM
You seem to enjoy pointless arguments, I don't. I'll wait and give you examples as they occur so you can try to understand.
There you go patronising me again, you can't help yourself can you?
I have never said that questioning the McCann version of events is forbidden, but I do find it laughable and a bit sad that there are some who feel it is their moral duty to question every minute detail in Kate's book, for example - hence this thread. If you don't enjoy pointless arguments (and you've made it very clear that you consider my contribution to this forum pointless) then I suggest you stop engaging with me altogether. I however will continue to challenge your posts, like it or not.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2016, 03:56:35 PM
There you go patronising me again, you can't help yourself can you?
I have never said that questioning the McCann version of events is forbidden, but I do find it laughable and a bit sad that there are some who feel it is their moral duty to question every minute detail in Kate's book, for example - hence this thread. If you don't enjoy pointless arguments (and you've made it very clear that you consider my contribution to this forum pointless) then I suggest you stop engaging with me altogether. I however will continue to challenge your posts, like it or not.
But you do not find it equally laughable that you make disparaging remarks about Sr Amaral and things Portuguese for no apparent reason ?.......................... well scroat me gently with a knotted water kelpie.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2016, 05:21:04 PM
It's also much nicer not to be provoked and abused and wound up in the way that Mercury likes to do - which is one reason why I get far fewer penalty points these days. The last person to insult me to the point where I was rude back was SIL and so I received a warning. Now she's on ignore no more abuse from her to deal with - brilliant. 8((()*/ PS: in case you hadn't noticed I spend ALL my time here addressing others' opinions.
Laughable
Accusing me of giving you most of your penalty points
You started a thread with a legit question
I answered it with a legit comment
Your response was about abuse winding up and provoking, not got a mirror handy?
Perhaps I could get a response go my legit comment to your legit question? Or is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2016, 05:23:57 PM
I'm not deflecting. The fact is, the person who made the original bookings was the most guilty, as that allowed the information to be possibly shared covertly with other OC employees/locals/other holidaymakers. GM knew who he had told about his childcare arrangements. I am no doubt guilty of the most heinous childcare crimes according to the gospel of the perfect parenting brigade aka McCann sceptics so I will refrain from commenting on the last time I abandoned my children.
Its not about perfect parenting but basic When you leave toddlers alone you are risking alot
And gerry told wilkins and mckenzie iirc or one of the other diners at the tapas that they were leaving their kids alone....pathetic
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2016, 06:52:21 PM
There you go patronising me again, you can't help yourself can you?
I have never said that questioning the McCann version of events is forbidden, but I do find it laughable and a bit sad that there are some who feel it is their moral duty to question every minute detail in Kate's book, for example - hence this thread. If you don't enjoy pointless arguments (and you've made it very clear that you consider my contribution to this forum pointless) then I suggest you stop engaging with me altogether. I however will continue to challenge your posts, like it or not.
Why do you assume or fabricate so much?? Since when has criticism been moral or a duty....when somethng dont add up, or is "off" one questions and or criticises, just from observation....its a mental process that all use...why bring morals into it? A bit less moralising on your part wouldnt go AMISS anyway lol
What was it you posted months ago ? That sceptics minds were similar to peter sutcliffes! ? Lol
That argument alone e should disbar you for complaining about anything or criticising as it was as low as possible
Whinger
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 06:59:28 PM
Well they had 12 hours or so to discuss it before the first statements were taken Whose statement was first Rachel or Matt and when?
I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Heriberto Janosch González on Madeleine McCann's case. http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
He gives an easily understood and informative analysis of what may have happened ( at the link above) when the tapas group were trying to remember the events of that evening. In my opinion it is well worth a read.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2016, 03:32:39 PM
I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Heriberto Janosch González on Madeleine McCann's case. http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
He gives an easily understood and informative analysis of what may have happened ( at the link above) when the tapas group were trying to remember the events of that evening. In my opinion it is well worth a read.
...and a rather biased one.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 23, 2016, 06:10:30 PM
If there is anything you think Heri may have got wrong or be mistaken about, you should really contact him and let him know. As a scholar he has carried out meticulous research into Madeleine's case and will not have put his name and reputation to erroneous information.
In my opinion, bias doesn't enter into his research. He started off his investigation with an open mind with perhaps an initial slight bias against the McCanns and followed the evidence, which includes Kate's book, to reach his conclusions.
Would that there were more like him.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2016, 06:41:41 PM
If there is anything you think Heri may have got wrong or be mistaken about, you should really contact him and let him know. As a scholar he has carried out meticulous research into Madeleine's case and will not have put his name and reputation to erroneous information.
In my opinion, bias doesn't enter into his research. He started off his investigation with an open mind with perhaps an initial slight bias against the McCanns and followed the evidence, which includes Kate's book, to reach his conclusions.
Would that there were more like him.
My only problem with Heri is that I can find no detailed explanation of how he decided that the parents were innocent. I have asked him twice on here, but he hasn't responded. If you know where on his site I can find that a link would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2016, 07:02:22 PM
Well they had 12 hours or so to discuss it before the first statements were taken Whose statement was first Rachel or Matt and when?
It was a matter of nearly 12 months not hours, keep up robby, and the answer to my question has not been forthcoming at all, ie, if matt wondered where madeleine slept, why did he not stick his head in the KIDS room but go out his way to look in the PARENTS room
?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 23, 2016, 07:14:03 PM
If there is anything you think Heri may have got wrong or be mistaken about, you should really contact him and let him know. As a scholar he has carried out meticulous research into Madeleine's case and will not have put his name and reputation to erroneous information.
In my opinion, bias doesn't enter into his research. He started off his investigation with an open mind with perhaps an initial slight bias against the McCanns and followed the evidence, which includes Kate's book, to reach his conclusions.
Would that there were more like him.
A bit of a an "appeal to authority " there?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2016, 07:27:50 PM
It was a matter of nearly 12 months not hours, keep up robby, and the answer to my question has not been forthcoming at all, ie, if matt wondered where madeleine slept, why did he not stick his head in the KIDS room but go out his way to look in the PARENTS room
?
Merc I will admit I was tired yesterday and not concentrating fully. So you are saying I got it wrong that Rachel mentions it early. I agree after 12 months there would be all sorts of communication between the group (I suppose friends keep in touch). Where does the question mark get put? "if matt wondered where madeleine slept, why did he not stick his head in the KIDS room but go out his way to look in the PARENTS room"
For to me that seems contradictory as Hell. So could you make that clear and unambiguous please.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2016, 08:00:45 PM
Merc I will admit I was tired yesterday and not concentrating fully. So you are saying I got it wrong that Rachel mentions it early. I agree after 12 months there would be all sorts of communication between the group (I suppose friends keep in touch). Where does the question mark get put? "if matt wondered where madeleine slept, why did he not stick his head in the KIDS room but go out his way to look in the PARENTS room"
For to me that seems contradictory as Hell. So could you make that clear and unambiguous please.
No worries
Matt said he went to check on the children, stood at the door entrance and could see the cots with the two twins sleeping/breathing
He goes on to say he wondered where Madeleine slept
Two questions
1) why wonder where she slept if he didnt stick his heac round the door to see...it was the kids room after all He must have known it was the KIDS (not just twins) room seeing as he did an audio check from outside the shutters at 9pm
2) why not do that, but instead go to another room to see if she slept there?
I dont understand what the problem is here
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2016, 08:09:36 PM
If there is anything you think Heri may have got wrong or be mistaken about, you should really contact him and let him know. As a scholar he has carried out meticulous research into Madeleine's case and will not have put his name and reputation to erroneous information.
In my opinion, bias doesn't enter into his research. He started off his investigation with an open mind with perhaps an initial slight bias against the McCanns and followed the evidence, which includes Kate's book, to reach his conclusions.
Would that there were more like him.
I already have to some extent.
Just remember he is giving his views and no more.
They are no more valid than any other person on here.
Likewise, I have researched his background.
P.S. How does Heriberto know KM's book is an accurate account of what happened, since the book is undeniably biased ?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2016, 08:15:33 PM
If there is anything you think Heri may have got wrong or be mistaken about, you should really contact him and let him know. As a scholar he has carried out meticulous research into Madeleine's case and will not have put his name and reputation to erroneous information.
In my opinion, bias doesn't enter into his research. He started off his investigation with an open mind with perhaps an initial slight bias against the McCanns and followed the evidence, which includes Kate's book, to reach his conclusions.
Would that there were more like him.
scholar ˈskɒlə/ noun plural noun: scholars a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities. "a Hebrew scholar" synonyms: academic, intellectual, learned person, professor, man of letters, woman of letters, mind, intellect, savant, polymath, highbrow, bluestocking; authority, expert, pundit, mastermind; pandit; rabbi; informalegghead; informalpointy-head; archaicbookman "a leading French biblical scholar" archaic
So hes the only one here!
Would that there be more like of them?
Or is just one conclusion the right one? What about "scholars" that take issue with some of the "evidence"
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2016, 08:26:39 PM
Matt said he went to check on the children, stood at the door entrance and could see the cots with the two twins sleeping/breathing
He goes on to say he wondered where Madeleine slept
Two questions
1) why wonder where she slept if he didnt stick his heac round the door to see...it was the kids room after all He must have known it was the KIDS (not just twins) room seeing as he did an audio check from outside the shutters at 9pm
2) why not do that, but instead go to another room to see if she slept there?
I dont understand what the problem is here
Well thanks again Merc but to me that makes it even harder to explain. 1. Did Matt know which side of the building the kids bedroom was? OK I suppose he did since it was just through the wall from his apartment he might have heard enough noises during earlier part of the week to have learnt this. (Does he do the 9:00 auditory check on the right side of the building?)
2. If he has any concerns about where Madeleine is asleep and goes to check whether Madeleine is in the adult's room, he would have found her either there or not there. If she was not there he needed to have gone back to the kid's room and confirmed that she really was there. I suppose he could have just assumed she must be asleep in the darkened kids bedroom. I might have done it differently but that doesn't alter the facts. We all might have done it differently but that doesn't alter the facts.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2016, 08:58:17 PM
youre overthinking it
Matt checked the kids bedroom from outside, earlier at 9pm, ergo he knew all kids sleeping there
Matt goes inside at 9 30 and suddenly wonders where MM slept. Why? And why NOT look in the kids bedroom, sigh Maybe he did and saw she werent there!!!!
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: jassi on September 23, 2016, 09:09:14 PM
Matt checked the kids bedroom from outside, earlier at 9pm, ergo he knew all kids sleeping there
Matt goes inside at 9 30 and suddenly wonders where MM slept. Why? And why NOT look in the kids bedroom, sigh Maybe he did and saw she werent there!!!!
If that were the case, why was the alarm not raised at 9.30?
I bet that Matt really regretted taking Kate's turn, after the event. If he had stay clear of 5a, we wouldn't be questioning his actions.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2016, 09:35:00 PM
Well we'd need to go through it and pull it apart then.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 08:14:35 AM
At our next meeting Neves was to change tack and tell us that one of the Ocean Club managers, Silvia Batista (the lady who had translated for us on 3 May), had also reported seeing Murat outside our apartment that night. Page #235.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2016, 01:44:16 AM
scholar ˈskɒlə/ noun plural noun: scholars a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities. "a Hebrew scholar" synonyms: academic, intellectual, learned person, professor, man of letters, woman of letters, mind, intellect, savant, polymath, highbrow, bluestocking; authority, expert, pundit, mastermind; pandit; rabbi; informalegghead; informalpointy-head; archaicbookman "a leading French biblical scholar" archaic
So hes the only one here!
Would that there be more like of them?
Or is just one conclusion the right one? What about "scholars" that take issue with some of the "evidence"
I would be interested in you naming one who may fit the criteria.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 11:10:14 AM
By writing things in a certain order in her book Kate suggests to the reader they happened in that order, but they didn't. The twins weren't in the photos of 5A, so they had gone before the PJ left, although the impression is given that they were still there.
The PJ locked the apartment and left the GNR guarding it, so no-one was left in there. Emma Knight's evidence makes no mention of cots being placed in 5H.
It is possible, however that the twins were moved twice. Once to the new apartment, perhaps with Fiona staying with them, and then to 5H later after Emma left.
This fits with Jane Tanners evidence that Kate and the twins were gone from 5A at 3am when she spoke to the PJ, with Emma's that they went to the new apartment. and with Dianne's, that they arrived in 5H quite a while after they left 5A. It also explains why Gerry and Kate carried them out of 5A, but David and Fiona carried them into 5H, according to Dianne.
Eventually, at about 3am, I managed to get hold of Michelle’s partner, Jon Corner, on his mobile. ‘No one’s listening!’ I wept. ‘Nothing’s happening!’ The next thing I knew, the PJ officers were heading for the front door.......And with that they were gone, leaving us to our own devices....We probably could have stayed in our apartment, but who would have wanted to? Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene....Mark Warner had prepared another flat for us on the first floor of an adjacent block, but Gerry and I were in no condition to be on our own. We couldn’t look after ourselves, let alone the twins. So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. [Madeleine]
A request was made to the OC services director for the family to be re-allocated and accordingly the babies were taken out of the room, so that the site could be searched. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.....“That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah” 4078 “And where was Kate?” I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there. I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
”Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?” Reply ”Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
He then states that upon leaving the apartment was locked, leaving the space preserved for the GNR elements that were stationed next to the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 28, 2016, 11:19:00 AM
By writing things in a certain order in her book Kate suggests to the reader they happened in that order, but they didn't. The twins weren't in the photos of 5A, so they had gone before the PJ left, although the impression is given that they were still there.
The PJ locked the apartment and left the GNR guarding it, so no-one was left in there. Emma Knight's evidence makes no mention of cots being placed in 5H.
It is possible, however that the twins were moved twice. Once to the new apartment, perhaps with Fiona staying with them, and then to 5H later after Emma left.
This fits with Jane Tanners evidence that Kate and the twins were gone from 5A at 3am when she spoke to the PJ, with Emma's that they went to the new apartment. and with Dianne's, that they arrived in 5H quite a while after they left 5A. It also explains why Gerry and Kate carried them out of 5A, but David and Fiona carried them into 5H, according to Dianne.
Eventually, at about 3am, I managed to get hold of Michelle’s partner, Jon Corner, on his mobile. ‘No one’s listening!’ I wept. ‘Nothing’s happening!’ The next thing I knew, the PJ officers were heading for the front door.......And with that they were gone, leaving us to our own devices....We probably could have stayed in our apartment, but who would have wanted to? Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene....Mark Warner had prepared another flat for us on the first floor of an adjacent block, but Gerry and I were in no condition to be on our own. We couldn’t look after ourselves, let alone the twins. So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. [Madeleine]
A request was made to the OC services director for the family to be re-allocated and accordingly the babies were taken out of the room, so that the site could be searched. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.....“That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah” 4078 “And where was Kate?” I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there. I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
”Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?” Reply ”Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
He then states that upon leaving the apartment was locked, leaving the space preserved for the GNR elements that were stationed next to the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
I don't understand the problem. Kate doesn't say that she and the twins were in Apartment 5a when the PJ left at 3am, so...?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 11:59:23 AM
I don't understand the problem. Kate doesn't say that she and the twins were in Apartment 5a when the PJ left at 3am, so...?
Firstly, the PJ didn't leave them in 5A, they locked up when they left at 3.30-4am.
Secondly the staff made no mention of cots in 5H; 4G is where the cots were placed and where Emma Knight said the twins were taken and stayed until 4.30am when she left.
Thirdly the twins were carried out of 5A by their parents, but into 5H by the Paynes according to Dianne.
We probably could have stayed in our apartment, but who would have wanted to? Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene.....So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 28, 2016, 12:49:42 PM
Firstly, the PJ didn't leave them in 5A, they locked up when they left at 3.30-4am.
Secondly the staff made no mention of cots in 5H; 4G is where the cots were placed and where Emma Knight said the twins were taken and stayed until 4.30am when she left.
Thirdly the twins were carried out of 5A by their parents, but into 5H by the Paynes according to Dianne.
We probably could have stayed in our apartment, but who would have wanted to? Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene.....So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. [Madeleine]
Firstly neither I nor Kate (as far as I can make out) said that the PJ left them alone in Apartment 5a when they left. Secondly, are you making something out of nothing again?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 01:24:11 PM
Firstly neither I nor Kate (as far as I can make out) said that the PJ left them alone in Apartment 5a when they left. Secondly, are you making something out of nothing again?
I can only assume you can't read;
Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene. [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 28, 2016, 02:06:01 PM
Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene. [Madeleine]
I thought you never assumed? But on this occasion, you're right - I can't read. I rely on my guide dog to woof out what's written on the board and sometimes he makes mistakes. I will have words with him now....
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 03:02:18 PM
I thought you never assumed? But on this occasion, you're right - I can't read. I rely on my guide dog to woof out what's written on the board and sometimes he makes mistakes. I will have words with him now....
I do hope he wasn't influenced by handler bias. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 28, 2016, 03:08:53 PM
No, he's just incredibly unreliable like most dumb animals, but he's very good at sniffing out sausages.
I'd explain to him that Kate said they were left in a crime scene by the PJ if I were you, and that she seems to have forgotten they locked her out before they went.
You might like to explain the twin juggling on the way upstairs too. Perhaps that explains why the twins left 5A before three and arrived in 5H over an hour later.
I did the research because I was puzzled by Dianne Webster's statement saying neither the McCanns nor the Paynes went out again after arriving in 5H with the twins. That wasn't possible if they went straight to 5H from 5A because both Kate and Gerry were seen out at 4am, after the twins were moved.
If the twins were in 4G under the care of Fiona and Emma until after 4.30am it all becomes clear.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 05:21:17 PM
I'd explain to him that Kate said they were left in a crime scene by the PJ if I were you, and that she seems to have forgotten they locked her out before they went.
You might like to explain the twin juggling on the way upstairs too. Perhaps that explains why the twins left 5A before three and arrived in 5H over an hour later.
I did the research because I was puzzled by Dianne Webster's statement saying neither the McCanns nor the Paynes went out again after arriving in 5H with the twins. That wasn't possible if they went straight to 5H from 5A because both Kate and Gerry were seen out at 4am, after the twins were moved.
If the twins were in 4G under the care of Fiona and Emma until after 4.30am it all becomes clear.
So do you think the McCanns never slept at all in the Payne's apartment?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on September 28, 2016, 05:52:47 PM
I'd explain to him that Kate said they were left in a crime scene by the PJ if I were you, and that she seems to have forgotten they locked her out before they went.
You might like to explain the twin juggling on the way upstairs too. Perhaps that explains why the twins left 5A before three and arrived in 5H over an hour later.
I did the research because I was puzzled by Dianne Webster's statement saying neither the McCanns nor the Paynes went out again after arriving in 5H with the twins. That wasn't possible if they went straight to 5H from 5A because both Kate and Gerry were seen out at 4am, after the twins were moved.
If the twins were in 4G under the care of Fiona and Emma until after 4.30am it all becomes clear.
The police statement doesn't make it clear that they (the police) locked up an empty apartment and left, nor that the McCanns no longer had access to 5a does it? As for twin juggling, I'm sure that's illegal. What do you think it all means....? &%+((£
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 08:33:08 PM
No. They went to 4G first and when Emma Knight left at about 4.30am they went to the Paynes rather than be alone.
So they slept at the Payne's that morning of the 4th, even if it was only a couple of hours. It must be like sleeping in a warzone. Would a person be able to sleep under the stress? Page 105 Gerry managed to drift off for less than an hour. Kate never slept.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: John on September 28, 2016, 08:42:10 PM
The police statement doesn't make it clear that they (the police) locked up an empty apartment and left, nor that the McCanns no longer had access to 5a does it? As for twin juggling, I'm sure that's illegal. What do you think it all means....? &%+((£
I can think of no reason why Fiona and Kate are giving the impression that the twins went straight to 5H when they left 5A, but they are.
Looking at the statements it's not possible that the twins went straight from 5A to 5H though.
Jane said they were gone at 3am when she was interviewed. That makes sense because they weren't in the photos, taken before 4am when the PJ left.
They were not in 5H because Dianne said no-one left between the twins arriving and Kate and Gerry going out together at dawn.
Kate and Gerry were out separately at 4am, though, they were seen.
It's clear the twins went to 4G and were moved to 5H after Emma left.
Everyone agrees that the PJ cleared everyone out of the apartment before they left. 'Preserved' in this case means preserving the crime scene because some forensic work had to be left until daylight.
He then states that upon leaving the apartment was locked, leaving the space preserved for the GNR elements that were stationed next to the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
4078 ”Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?” Reply ”Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
PJ had arrived, erm, the plain clothes detectives, I think there was a couple of them and they'd been in the apartment and obviously they, at that point, had said they needed to close off the apartment or move the twins. Erm, so I'd suggested putting the twins up in our apartment, erm, Emma, who was there, had arranged some of the MARK WARNER Nannies to get some extra cots and more bedding, erm, and we set up the cots in our living room and a bed for Kate and Gerry as well, not that they used it, but, erm, and then I think, I think they were Policemen, I can't remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn't wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren't their parents, they didn't, they didn't wake up. Erm, and we settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I think it was around sort of half four'ish we decided we should all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of helplessness really, everyone had gone, erm, you know, what are we supposed to do'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 28, 2016, 11:01:00 PM
By writing things in a certain order in her book Kate suggests to the reader they happened in that order, but they didn't. The twins weren't in the photos of 5A, so they had gone before the PJ left, although the impression is given that they were still there.
The PJ locked the apartment and left the GNR guarding it, so no-one was left in there. Emma Knight's evidence makes no mention of cots being placed in 5H.
It is possible, however that the twins were moved twice. Once to the new apartment, perhaps with Fiona staying with them, and then to 5H later after Emma left.
This fits with Jane Tanners evidence that Kate and the twins were gone from 5A at 3am when she spoke to the PJ, with Emma's that they went to the new apartment. and with Dianne's, that they arrived in 5H quite a while after they left 5A. It also explains why Gerry and Kate carried them out of 5A, but David and Fiona carried them into 5H, according to Dianne.
Eventually, at about 3am, I managed to get hold of Michelle’s partner, Jon Corner, on his mobile. ‘No one’s listening!’ I wept. ‘Nothing’s happening!’ The next thing I knew, the PJ officers were heading for the front door.......And with that they were gone, leaving us to our own devices....We probably could have stayed in our apartment, but who would have wanted to? Looking back, it’s inexplicable, of course, that we should ever have been left in what was now a crime scene....Mark Warner had prepared another flat for us on the first floor of an adjacent block, but Gerry and I were in no condition to be on our own. We couldn’t look after ourselves, let alone the twins. So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. [Madeleine]
A request was made to the OC services director for the family to be re-allocated and accordingly the babies were taken out of the room, so that the site could be searched. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.....“That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah” 4078 “And where was Kate?” I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there. I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
”Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?” Reply ”Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
He then states that upon leaving the apartment was locked, leaving the space preserved for the GNR elements that were stationed next to the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
QUOTE: At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm END QUOTE
Would this be Madeleines pink blanket?
PS If this has been noticed before, please delete this post
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2016, 11:28:44 PM
QUOTE: At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm END QUOTE
Would this be Madeleines pink blanket?
PS If this has been noticed before, please delete this post
A good idea, Sadie but Madeleine's blanket was on her bed in the PJ photos which were taken after the twins were removed.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on September 29, 2016, 09:57:24 PM
DCS Bob Small;
As our main liaison with the British police, Bob was not privy to the investigation details. This was for our protection, he told us, as sharing knowledge we would otherwise not have had could potentially compromise us. [Madeleine]
After the dog searches, however;
It did emerge, however, that Bob had concerns of his own. He explained that the British police regarded the use of sniffer dogs as intelligence rather than evidence, and he was perplexed at the apparent fixation of the PJ on the idea that Madeleine had died in the apartment. He told Gerry he thought they’d get a shock when the forensic results came back. [Madeleine]
I wonder why he thought that? As he had no knowledge of the details of the investigation how could he offer an opinion on the forensic results?
It was Bob Small who notified the PJ that the McCanns had decided to leave Portugal. Upon which;
We’d waited almost four weeks for these interviews and it was obvious they had been hastily arranged once Bob Small notified the PJ that we would be leaving the country. Otherwise, why now? As far as we knew, they didn’t have the forensic results back yet. [Madeleine]
Were the McCanns expecting to be told when the forensic results came back? By whom?
After they were informed they were going to be interviewed in September;
Gerry rang DCS Bob Small, who was astounded by this latest development. He promised to make some phone calls. Bob was finally able to get hold of Luís Neves, who was reportedly out of the country. Luís claimed not to know anything about it. [Madeleine]
I wonder why Bob Small was astounded? As he wasn't privy to the investigation details he had no idea what was happening, so no reason to be astounded, surely?
After their first interviews and their conversation with their lawyer Gerry;
rang Bob Small and, in a voice laced with panic, explained what was going on. Bob was shocked. He wasn’t aware of any forensic results, he told us, and certainly none suggesting what had just been shared with us. He tried his best to reassure Gerry. ‘Just tell them the truth. It’ll be OK,’ he insisted. Perhaps he was trying to convince himself. [Madeleine]
Once again Bob Small is suggesting that he is privy to investigation details; in particular the forensic results from the FSS. Not only that, he is sharing what he knows with people who are suspected by another police force. No wonder Kate believed the British police were on their side.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 12:37:10 AM
Kate wrote she had no worries about a child dropping off the balcony like her frind the oaynes might had had. cos they were on the ground floor
.....true? Half true? False? You chose alfie
That was a strange statement;
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn’t have to worry about the children’s safety on a balcony. [Madeleine]
Had she noticed the drop? The steps? Clearly not, or she wouldn't have left the children unattended with the patio doors unlocked. Did they play out there unsupervised that week being as there was nothing to worry about? I can honestly say I get the impression she knew nothing about guarding small children. Hand on heart, I don't get it.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2016, 09:53:25 PM
Thank you GU you beat me to it, i was held up wondering why wide to cast the context for davel lol
she even seems to be intimating there was no balcony there
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 01, 2016, 09:54:51 PM
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn’t have to worry about the children’s safety on a balcony. [Madeleine]
Had she noticed the drop? The steps? Clearly not, or she wouldn't have left the children unattended with the patio doors unlocked. Did they play out there unsupervised that week being as there was nothing to worry about? I can honestly say I get the impression she knew nothing about guarding small children. Hand on heart, I don't get it.
so thhey were on the ground floor
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2016, 09:56:55 PM
Ys on the ground floor of a block each wit h a balcony which any kid could fall off from, so katey misleading the reader im afraid davel Get over it await the apologists apology for this one lol Alfie firsdt seeing as its his thread 8((()*/
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on October 01, 2016, 11:04:50 PM
Only insofar as there was no-one below them. Ground floors don't often involve climbing up so many steps as they had at the back.
There were no steps to the front door. Many properties have steps leading either up or down from the back door into the garden. 5A just had more than average.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2016, 11:43:13 PM
There were no steps to the front door. Many properties have steps leading either up or down from the back door into the garden. 5A just had more than average.
Youre sounding like an apologist again misty, no one said there were steps to the front door
There were many steep steps to the back, but of n import, what we ARE talking about, is kate saying she was not worried about her kids falling off a balcony cos she was on the ground floor....as if there was n balcony which there was, ......which is a schizophrenic statement, keep to the point pls
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2016, 11:53:37 PM
So kate says she felt it was totally safe for her kids to be left alone with an open door and a 4 at least foor drop from the accesible balcony if they got up and wonderd, ok then, you apologists can crow as much as you like, its just not reality for 99 per cent of normal people who are in charge of toddlers, apologise at will, will never change a thing, ever,
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: misty on October 02, 2016, 12:24:44 AM
So kate says she felt it was totally safe for her kids to be left alone with an open door and a 4 at least foor drop from the accesible balcony if they got up and wonderd, ok then, you apologists can crow as much as you like, its just not reality for 99 per cent of normal people who are in charge of toddlers, apologise at will, will never change a thing, ever,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony A balcony (from Italian: balcone, scaffold; cf. Old High German balcho, beam, balk; probably cognate with Persian term بالكانه bālkāneh or its older variant پالكانه pālkāneh;[1]) is a platform projecting from the wall of a building, supported by columns or console brackets, and enclosed with a balustrade, usually above the ground floor. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5A did not have a balcony. Balconies are cantilevered.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 03:32:19 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony A balcony (from Italian: balcone, scaffold; cf. Old High German balcho, beam, balk; probably cognate with Persian term بالكانه bālkāneh or its older variant پالكانه pālkāneh;[1]) is a platform projecting from the wall of a building, supported by columns or console brackets, and enclosed with a balustrade, usually above the ground floor. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5A did not have a balcony. Balconies are cantilevered.
Course it didnt you and kate are right, it was figment of everyones imagnation, oh well, glad that ones cleared up, there WAS N BALCONY IN 5_A
Thanks misty
Nite now
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on October 02, 2016, 11:16:13 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony A balcony (from Italian: balcone, scaffold; cf. Old High German balcho, beam, balk; probably cognate with Persian term بالكانه bālkāneh or its older variant پالكانه pālkāneh;[1]) is a platform projecting from the wall of a building, supported by columns or console brackets, and enclosed with a balustrade, usually above the ground floor. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5A did not have a balcony. Balconies are cantilevered.
A truly wonderful piece of diversionary semantics; well done!
Whatever you care to call it most parents would have taken one look and resolved to keep a close eye on any children under 4 years of age using it. The dangers are undeniable and obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 02, 2016, 12:45:08 PM
A truly wonderful piece of diversionary semantics; well done!
Whatever you care to call it most parents would have taken one look and resolved to keep a close eye on any children under 4 years of age using it. The dangers are undeniable and obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense.
Sorry, but did Kate resolve NOT to keep an eye on her children whilst they were using the patio / balcony or whatever you want to call it? Why did a supposedly family-friendly resort have all these child death traps all over the place? Makes you wonder just how many kids came to a sticky end from that balcony and that apartment?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on October 02, 2016, 01:12:35 PM
Sorry, but did Kate resolve NOT to keep an eye on her children whilst they were using the patio / balcony or whatever you want to call it? Why did a supposedly family-friendly resort have all these child death traps all over the place? Makes you wonder just how many kids came to a sticky end from that balcony and that apartment?
It's not something that can be lauded as safer than the ones upstairs, which is what she said. I expect most parents guarded their children at all times, hence the lack of reported accidents.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 02, 2016, 07:03:21 PM
It's not something that can be lauded as safer than the ones upstairs, which is what she said. I expect most parents guarded their children at all times, hence the lack of reported accidents.
So is it your opinion that a drop from the Apartment 5A patio onto stairs below is equally as dangerous as a fall from a first floor balcony? Upon what do you base your assumption that most parents guarded their children at all times? The lack of fatalities?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 07:36:10 PM
Just as well the other kids slept soundly or else all three of them could have escaped.
Some evidence that any of them escaped over the balustrade would be nice - got any?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 02, 2016, 07:49:35 PM
A fall from the McCanns' patio over the railings would be a matter of a few feet, with steps breaking the fall. A fall from a first floor balcony would be a matter of 20+ feet with nothing to break the fall. One can understand a parent's preference for the ground floor apartment.
So is it your opinion that a drop from the Apartment 5A patio onto stairs below is equally as dangerous as a fall from a first floor balcony? Upon what do you base your assumption that most parents guarded their children at all times? The lack of fatalities?
I never said it was the same. I said it was it was dangerous and most parents would have worried about children falling from it, unlike Mrs McCann.
You asked why there were no accidents reported and the obvious answer was that parents took care to guard their children. The potential for accidents to happen is quite clear.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 02, 2016, 08:18:39 PM
I never said it was the same. I said it was it was dangerous and most parents would have worried about children falling from it, unlike Mrs McCann.
You asked why there were no accidents reported and the obvious answer was that parents took care to guard their children. The potential for accidents to happen is quite clear.
Kate was relieved that they weren't on the first floor so didn't have to worry about what most likely would be a fatal or serious fall from the balcony, unlike a ground floor flat where the risk of fatal or serious injury would be much less. The fact that you have interpreted Kate's words to mean she didn't watch her kids on the patio or worry about them at all is YOUR biased conjecture, nothing more.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 08:31:35 PM
Some evidence that any of them escaped over the balustrade would be nice - got any?
Would the doors be a barrier? Could a 4 year old open an unlocked sliding door? Or even the front door since it wasn't double locked? It doesn't sound that hard. But would they close it after them as well? That might be possible.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Benice on October 02, 2016, 08:34:34 PM
It's not something that can be lauded as safer than the ones upstairs, which is what she said. I expect most parents guarded their children at all times, hence the lack of reported accidents.
Most people in my experience don't go through life trusting no-one, believing no-one and demanding confirmation of every last little thing they do before they do it.
There is 'protective', 'over-protective' and 'paranoid' IMO..
Most people would say that it is far more dangerous to fall from a first floor balcony with a sheer drop to the ground below - than to fall from a ground floor balcony onto steps - a few feet below.
There is danger everywhere if you make a point of looking for it.. But even if you kept your children indoors and stayed glued to them 24/7 - that still wouldn't 100% guarantee their safety.
IMO you are using hindsight to nitpick. You might as well be criticising them for putting their children's lives at risk by going on a plane - when they know full well that planes crash.
Incidentally it's because parents are not perfect human beings and do make mistakes that Missing Children Procedures are in place in most holiday resorts. Including this one. It wasn't introduced because of the McCanns.
Just another example of following the .... 'Everything the McCanns do is wrong and Everything the McCanns say is wrong' mantra.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 09:14:34 PM
Some evidence that any of them escaped over the balustrade would be nice - got any?
Since the tracker dogs followed a trail around apartment G5 and across the road to the carpark beside apartment G6 could MM have escaped via the front door and the wind shut the door behind her, so she was then locked out, so she took the path around the building (for she had run that way earlier) and was trying to find the gate leading to the stairs up to the backdoor. Except that gate would be impossible for a 4 year old to open, wouldn't it? Even if she could climb the gate and reach the latch, how was she going then to push it forward to open it?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 09:36:55 PM
Kate was relieved that they weren't on the first floor so didn't have to worry about what most likely would be a fatal or serious fall from the balcony, unlike a ground floor flat where the risk of fatal or serious injury would be much less. The fact that you have interpreted Kate's words to mean she didn't watch her kids on the patio or worry about them at all is YOUR biased conjecture, nothing more.
But of course she (and her husband) didnt when out every night with the doors left open, duh! And why do you keep stating a fall from the balcony would be "cushioned" by steps? How do concrete steps cusion a fall? Besides, The vast majority of the balcony was nowhere near the steps....! There were chairs on the patio as well, for unknowing kids to climb on and potentially topple over...why dont you stop your safe mantra
Lastly, when she was indoors having a shower and presumably the kids left outside the bathroom, and payne knocked, he says the patio door was open ??
Getting back to the point , that section in her book was an untruth....ie that she felt no worries of her kids falling over a balcony as others must have done, cos they were on the GROUND FLOOR
well, theres only a worry if you ever LEAVE your kids in any position to do so...maybe the paynes werent worried at all? Maybe they LOCKED the damn door and watched their kids at all times
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 09:42:06 PM
But of course she (and her husband) didnt when out every night with the doors left open, duh! And why do you keep stating a fall from the balcony would be "cushioned" by steps? How do concrete steps cusion a fall? Besides, The vast majority of the balcony was nowhere near the steps....! There were chairs on the patio as well, for unknowing kids to climb on and potentially topple over...why dont you stop your safe mantra
Lastly, when she was indoors having a shower and presumably the kids left outside the bathroom, and payne knocked, he says the patio door was open ??
Getting back to the point , that section in her book was an untruth....ie that she felt no worries of her kids falling over a balcony as others must have done
well, theres only a worry if you ever LEAVE your kids in any position to do so...maybe the oaynes werent worried at all? Maybe they LOCKED the damn door and watched their kids at all times
What does that lead to?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 09:44:19 PM
Thanks for quoting Mercury's barely coherent rant in reply to my post. I'd like to point out that despite her repeated accusation that I claimed stairs would "cushion" a fall, I did not use this word and she needs to learn to quote me correctly or not bother at all.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 10:36:30 PM
I edited to add some not remove, so whch part of my post lead you to ask "what does that lead to"?
It was your sentence "Lastly, when she was indoors having a shower and presumably the kids left outside the bathroom, and payne knocked, he says the patio door was open??" So I said "what does that lead to"?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on October 02, 2016, 10:45:21 PM
Kate was relieved that they weren't on the first floor so didn't have to worry about what most likely would be a fatal or serious fall from the balcony, unlike a ground floor flat where the risk of fatal or serious injury would be much less. The fact that you have interpreted Kate's words to mean she didn't watch her kids on the patio or worry about them at all is YOUR biased conjecture, nothing more.
You seem to be saying that she looked at both flats and thought 'If the kids fall off their's they'll be seriously injured or dead. If my kids fall from ours they'll probably only get a broken arm'. What a ridiculous thing to imply. he actually said;
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn’t have to worry about the children’s safety on a balcony. [Madeleine]
They didn't have to worry; it's quite clear what she said. No comparison of likely injuries there. Not a hint that she saw her balcony as dangerous; nothing to worry about, she said.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 02, 2016, 10:50:26 PM
You seem to be saying that she looked at both flats and thought 'If the kids fall off their's they'll be seriously injured or dead. If my kids fall from ours they'll probably only get a broken arm'. What a ridiculous thing to imply. he actually said;
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn’t have to worry about the children’s safety on a balcony. [Madeleine]
They didn't have to worry; it's quite clear what she said. No comparison of likely injuries there. Not a hint that she saw her balcony as dangerous; nothing to worry about, she said.
So when she looked at the balcony on the first floor flat of David and Fiona what thoughts do you think went through her mind, apart from "nice view"? And why do you suppose she felt that the ground floor flat posed less of a worry than a first floor flat? Come on, it's not a difficult question!
Given that you seem to believe Kate has no concept of how to look after her own children why is it do you think that she still has custody of her twins?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 10:52:13 PM
Thanks for quoting Mercury's barely coherent rant in reply to my post. I'd like to point out that despite her repeated accusation that I claimed stairs would "cushion" a fall, I did not use this word and she needs to learn to quote me correctly or not bother at all.
A fall from the McCanns' patio over the railings would be a matter of a few feet, with steps breaking the fall. A fall from a first floor balcony would be a matter of 20+ feet with nothing to break the fall. One can understand a parent's preference for the ground floor apartment.
quote author=Alfie link=topic=7605.msg357891#msg357891 date=1475434175] A fall from the McCanns' patio over the railings would be a matter of a few feet, with steps breaking the fall. A fall from a first floor balcony would be a matter of 20+ feet with nothing to break the fall. One can understand a parent's preference for the ground floor apartment.
It was your sentence "Lastly, when she was indoors having a shower and presumably the kids left outside the bathroom, and payne knocked, he says the patio door was open??" So I said "what does that lead to"?
It leads to the position of the kids being a,one with an unlocked patio door unsupervised...why was it that difficult to understand
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 11:18:03 PM
Which point? That there were steps to break a fall? How do steps break a fall without the steps being lethal in addition? That there were even steps over a fall? No steps. The fall is beside the steps
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 11:31:20 PM
It was your sentence "Lastly, when she was indoors having a shower and presumably the kids left outside the bathroom, and payne knocked, he says the patio door was open??" So I said "what does that lead to"?
I answerd this but for some bizarre reason its disappeared
What it leads to is the probability that kate mccann was havng a shower with the kids left alone to potentially open the patio door walk out and do what they want
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 03, 2016, 12:22:54 AM
I answerd this but for some bizarre reason its disappeared
What it leads to is the probability that kate mccann was havng a shower with the kids left alone to potentially open the patio door walk out and do what they want
But they didn't, or do you think they did?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: G-Unit on October 03, 2016, 12:32:11 AM
I answerd this but for some bizarre reason its disappeared
What it leads to is the probability that kate mccann was havng a shower with the kids left alone to potentially open the patio door walk out and do what they want
If anything had happened around that time though, as Russell said there were four doctors on the tennis courts to help. What he doesn't mention is why that particular time occurred to him. The PJ, I believe, thought it was later;
there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout so you know we, so much has got lost over, over time, I think you know, it is ridi, it just seems senseless you know someone involved in, you know that it was there, that four families go on, have a great holiday, show no, no signs of abnormal behaviour, err and then rather than intervene and try and save Madeleine if she’d become injured, or, or at least raise the alarm, Emergency Services, mouth to mouth, blah, blah, blah, that, that either Kate and Gerry alone or by implication with help from anyone else would, would opt to, to go into some you know amazing cover up and I think that’s just got lost, I think that’s got lost in the whole thing, sorry anyway”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 03, 2016, 12:36:54 AM
Thats not the point The point is they could have The point is that kate said she had no worries about a balcony cos they were in the ground floor, sheesh
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 03, 2016, 04:14:50 AM
If anything had happened around that time though, as Russell said there were four doctors on the tennis courts to help. What he doesn't mention is why that particular time occurred to him. The PJ, I believe, thought it was later;
there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout so you know we, so much has got lost over, over time, I think you know, it is ridi, it just seems senseless you know someone involved in, you know that it was there, that four families go on, have a great holiday, show no, no signs of abnormal behaviour, err and then rather than intervene and try and save Madeleine if she’d become injured, or, or at least raise the alarm, Emergency Services, mouth to mouth, blah, blah, blah, that, that either Kate and Gerry alone or by implication with help from anyone else would, would opt to, to go into some you know amazing cover up and I think that’s just got lost, I think that’s got lost in the whole thing, sorry anyway”. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Who was going to call the other doctors? There were a total of 7 doctors in the Tapas 9 group. There are 4 on the court so there are 3 somewhere else. Have you tried to work out who is who?
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 03, 2016, 07:54:09 AM
Thanks for quoting Mercury's barely coherent rant in reply to my post. I'd like to point out that despite her repeated accusation that I claimed stairs would "cushion" a fall, I did not use this word and she needs to learn to quote me correctly or not bother at all.
No, you suggested concrete steps would break a fall.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alfie on October 03, 2016, 08:10:35 AM
Who was going to call the other doctors? There were a total of 7 doctors in the Tapas 9 group. There are 4 on the court so there are 3 somewhere else. Have you tried to work out who is who?
6 doctors; 2 Mccanns, 2 Paynes, Russell and Matt.
According to their evidence from 6pm to 7pm 1 is in G5A;
Until 6.45pm 4 at courts [GM, DP, MO, ROB] then Fiona arrives from the beach, 5 at courts. She and GM leave around 7pm, 3 at the courts.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 03, 2016, 10:45:54 AM
A fall from the McCanns' patio over the railings would be a matter of a few feet, with steps breaking the fall. A fall from a first floor balcony would be a matter of 20+ feet with nothing to break the fall. One can understand a parent's preference for the ground floor apartment.
According to their evidence from 6pm to 7pm 1 is in G5A;
Until 6.45pm 4 at courts [GM, .... ......, MO, ROB] then Fiona arrives from the beach, 5 at courts. She and GM leave around 7pm, 3 at the courts.
OK learned something - Jane Tanner is a marketing manager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann
Quote
The group consisted of marketing manager Jane Tanner and her partner, physician Russell O'Brien, who were there with their two children; physician Matthew Oldfield and his wife, recruitment consultant Rachael Oldfield, along with their daughter; and physicians Fiona and David Payne, their two children, and Fiona Payne's mother, Dianne Webster.
Title: Re: Pick any sentence from Kate's book.
Post by: mercury on October 04, 2016, 01:00:39 AM
Concrete steps breakng a fall, still means you land on concrete, which can be as harmful, depending how you fall, and how you land, and you may actually tumble all the way down them, not just get your fall "broken"
You really need to stop talking about steps breaking a fall where there were no steps to break a fall over the balcony, you know, the one kate mccann wasnt worried about at all
***
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn’t have to worry about the children’s safety on a balcony. [Madeleine]
***
So, not only was KM intimating there was n balcony, (due to them being n the ground floor) , but was also thnkng (for her to write that) that there was more danger falling from a first floor, why would there be any danger there and none at hers? If kids were never left able to access it with no adults around?