Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on September 22, 2016, 12:58:31 AM
Title: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2016, 12:58:31 AM
I think she was abducted between 9.10 & 9.30pm that night, the colour of the curtains seen by MO & the open door being the 2 main pieces of evidence.
23
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 01:07:46 AM
I think she was abducted between 9.10 & 9.30pm that night, the colour of the curtains seen by MO & the open door being the 2 main pieces of evidence.
Colour of the curtains? and from your post i gather you thnk jane probably had not have seen thr "abductor"
Ps why 9.30 there is zero evidence for that time being the max time anyone saw the child Well actually zero evidence any saw the chld from 6.30pm or 5.30 rather from official sources of totally independent witnesses
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 01:33:52 AM
Colour of the curtains? and from your post i gather you thnk jane probably had not have seen thr "abductor"
Ps why 9.30 there is zero evidence for that time being the max time anyone saw the child Well actually zero evidence any saw the chld from 6.30pm or 5.30 rather from official sources of totally independent witnesses
How would you define "totally independent witnesses"?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2016, 01:38:55 AM
Could you expand on those two aspects please? Have you raised these before?
Think about it, Robitty, if the shutters were down what would one notice about the curtains. If the shutters were raised what difference would that make, bearing in mind the street lighting outside?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 22, 2016, 01:41:19 AM
Colour of the curtains? and from your post i gather you thnk jane probably had not have seen thr "abductor"
Ps why 9.30 there is zero evidence for that time being the max time anyone saw the child Well actually zero evidence any saw the chld from 6.30pm or 5.30 rather from official sources of totally independent witnesses
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm *snipped* Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet'.
The curtains were blue & white. What colour do they appear if an amber light is shining through them? BTW MO correctly identified the colour of Madeleine's bedcover as blue.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 01:45:16 AM
Think about it, Robitty, if the shutters were down what would one notice about the curtains. If the shutters were raised what difference would that make, bearing in mind the street lighting outside?
Yes I see your point. But Misty said colour of the curtains and I couldn't recall that the colour had been mentioned. If the shutters were up the street light would be hitting the back of the curtains, but if they were "blackout curtains like Goncalo described, would this little bit of light affect the colour? I don't think that has been proven.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2016, 01:47:38 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm *snipped* Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet'.
The curtains were blue & white. What colour do they appear if an amber light is shining through them? BTW MO correctly identified the colour of Madeleine's bedcover as blue.
And?
Edited to say oh i see The curtains were different colour cos the blinds were up?? And moonlight changed their colour but matt said no breeze or cold coming from window, ok
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 22, 2016, 01:49:00 AM
Yes I see your point. But Misty said colour of the curtains and I could recall that the colour had been mentioned. If the shutters were up the street light would be hitting the back of the curtains, but if they were "blackout curtains like Goncalo described, would this little bit of light affect the colour? I don't think that has been proven.
Any investigator worth his salt would have taken Matt back to the scene and gone through the two scenarios. But alas we all know what happened there. No reconstitution and some still ask what it would have achieved.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2016, 01:49:52 AM
Yes I see your point. But Misty said colour of the curtains and I could recall that the colour had been mentioned. If the shutters were up the street light would be hitting the back of the curtains, but if they were "blackout curtains like Goncalo described, would this little bit of light affect the colour? I don't think that has been proven.
See Misty's post above. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg356082#msg356082
Matt describes what the curtains would have looked like with the shutters raised despite the fact he did not see them in that position. Neither did Kate. It was only the slamming of the door and the curtains blowing in that alerted her.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2016, 01:57:43 AM
And your P.S.........if GM is telling the truth in that he saw the bedroom door open at 9.10pm & saw Madeleine sleeping, then you have to accept he closed the door to at that time. Therefore, when MO checked some 20 mins later, found the door open again & saw the curtains as green + yellow, then something had happened in the apartment during those 20 minutes. However, if you do not believe GM's testimony at all, then it is a whole different ball game which offers no explanation for MO's testimony.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 22, 2016, 01:58:29 AM
The moon rises in the east and since the children's bedroom window faced due north I don't think moonlight was a factor. The documentary makers and Dave Edgar missed an opportunity to prove this one way or another when they had Matt back at 5a.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2016, 02:04:42 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm *snipped* Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet'.
The curtains were blue & white. What colour do they appear if an amber light is shining through them? BTW MO correctly identified the colour of Madeleine's bedcover as blue.
I think there was sufficient evidence of abduction available to the police in the first few hours after Madeleine's disappearance. The problem was that nobody coordinated it having been immediately sidetracked by trivia. For example 'praying Arabs' and a distraught mother's request for a priest.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2016, 02:08:11 AM
I think there was sufficient evidence of abduction available to the police in the first few hours after Madeleine's disappearance. The problem was that nobody coordinated it having been immediately sidetracked by trivia. For example 'praying Arabs' and a distraught mother's request for a priest.
Like a priest is a first port of call ok, not
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2016, 02:10:18 AM
The moon rises in the east and since the children's bedroom window faced due north I don't think moonlight was a factor. The documentary makers and Dave Edgar missed an opportunity to prove this one way or another when they had Matt back at 5a.
The amber street light beside the car park entrance shone through the window, John, not the moon.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 02:15:27 AM
Matt was quite unfamiliar with that room. How would he know how much light was too much or if the door had been corrected by Gerry. Does he set the door in exactly the right place. Had the windows been actually checked for security at all at anytime?
I find Matt's statements odd and so did Goncalo and he really picked holes in it, but there maybe fully innocent explanations for all of that. But if he returned via the internal path rather than the road he would have missed seeing the kid's window. Did he look at it from the outside when he was on the North side of the building? It didn't sound like he had. So he goes inside and remembers what he saw, but there is no way to assess whether the window is open or the shutters are up while the curtains are closed from the inside unless he went into the room.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2016, 02:20:52 AM
See Misty's post above. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg356082#msg356082
Matt describes what the curtains would have looked like with the shutters raised despite the fact he did not see them in that position. Neither did Kate. It was only the slamming of the door and the curtains blowing in that alerted her.
I'll have to have a look at this aspect.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2016, 02:22:44 AM
Matt was quite unfamiliar with that room. How would he know how much light was too much or if the door had been corrected by Gerry. Does he set the door in exactly the right place. Had the windows been actually checked for security at all at anytime?
I find Matt's statements odd and so did Goncalo and he really picked holes in it, but there maybe fully innocent explanations for all of that. But if he returned via the internal path rather than the road he would have missed seeing the kid's window. Did he look at it from the outside when he was on the North side of the building? It didn't sound like he had. So he goes inside and remembers what he saw, but there is no way to assess whether the window is open or the shutters are up while the curtains are closed from the inside unless he went into the room.
He stated the position of the door when he looked in and saw the twins in their cots. Gerry stated the position he left the door in after checking on Madeleine and the twins. A comparison of both their statements would have indicated to an interested observer that the door had been moved between visits.
All he had to do was look into the room from the doorway to see the curtains, which he did when he saw the twins in their cots.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2016, 02:23:56 AM
Matt was quite unfamiliar with that room. How would he know how much light was too much or if the door had been corrected by Gerry. Does he set the door in exactly the right place. Had the windows been actually checked for security at all at anytime?
I find Matt's statements odd and so did Goncalo and he really picked holes in it, but there maybe fully innocent explanations for all of that. But if he returned via the internal path rather than the road he would have missed seeing the kid's window. Did he look at it from the outside when he was on the North side of the building? It didn't sound like he had. So he goes inside and remembers what he saw, but there is no way to assess whether the window is open or the shutters are up while the curtains are closed from the inside unless he went into the room.
If the shutters were down the curtains would not have had a green & yellow hue. He could see the curtains from the doorway to the bedroom where he stood to observe.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 22, 2016, 11:42:49 AM
Yes, I think she was abducted between 9.10 & 9.30pm that night, the colour of the curtains seen by MO & the open door being the 2 main pieces of evidence.
I would tend to place the event at the same time as Matt's visit to 5a. There is every reason to think the shutter was up when he listened at the children's bedroom doorway and that Madeleine was still in her bed. Consequently from about 9.25 to 9.40.
That half hour from 9.30pm to 10pm was the period in which no checks were made.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 25, 2016, 01:07:07 PM
If the shutters were down the curtains would not have had a green & yellow hue. He could see the curtains from the doorway to the bedroom where he stood to observe.
I tend to agree, which supports the theory that the shutter had been lifted but the windrow closed again.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: G-Unit on September 25, 2016, 03:02:29 PM
I tend to agree, which supports the theory that the shutter had been lifted but the windrow closed again.
Matthews earliest description of the curtains is plain green. Gerry says the blinds weren't fully closed and at night when no other apartment lights were on weak light did come in from outside.
He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed
He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 25, 2016, 03:49:44 PM
Matthews earliest description of the curtains is plain green. Gerry says the blinds weren't fully closed and at night when no other apartment lights were on weak light did come in from outside.
He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed
He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
You might wish to check Matthew's statement in Portuguese. From memory, Pathfinder has raised the point that the bedroom Matthew was talking about having light from outside was the parents' bedroom, not the children's.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2016, 04:56:40 PM
You might wish to check Matthew's statement in Portuguese. From memory, Pathfinder has raised the point that the bedroom Matthew was talking about having light from outside was the parents' bedroom, not the children's.
Looking at foto16 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html I don't immediately see a light source strong enough to alter the light levels in the parent's bedroom. Whereas we know there was a light almost directly opposite the children's bedroom window.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2016, 05:00:50 PM
Looking at foto16 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html I don't immediately see a light source strong enough to alter the light levels in the parent's bedroom. Whereas we know there was a light almost directly opposite the children's bedroom window.
Could it be moonlight?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2016, 05:08:03 PM
It was a day after the full moon and so the Moon didn't rise till 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 06:30:03 PM
The following is Amaral's description of the curtain. It is this "blackout curtain" that concerns me. I have seen no sign of it in any of the photos.'
Quote
Looking more closely, the room is not as tidy as it looks. The bedroom window is protected by a shutter that only opens from the inside. A black-out curtain, that keeps out the light, comes down to the window ledge. At the sides, just brushing the floor, are two other curtains with tiebacks; they are drawn towards the centre of the window, but not completely closed.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2016, 06:37:16 PM
I think the reference is to the net curtains which only reach to the window ledge. Translation error perhaps? Portuguese > French > English.
Net curtains? I don't see net curtains either. I am now wondering if the description of the shutter is the blackout curtain
Quote
Looking more closely, the room is not as tidy as it looks. The bedroom window is protected by a shutter that only opens from the inside. A black-out curtain, that keeps out the light, comes down to the window ledge. At the sides, just brushing the floor, are two other curtains with tiebacks; they are drawn towards the centre of the window, but not completely closed.
And the full stop has been put in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2016, 10:28:50 PM
There were nets and thicker curtains
All photo documented
No blackout curtains UNLESS the purple curtains were blackout
But with shutters you dont need blackout curtains
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 10:33:26 PM
No blackout curtains UNLESS the purple curtains were blackout
But with shutters you dont need blackout curtains
So Amaral got it wrong? What is clear to me the bed covers and the curtains appear to match in design and colour so if you see the end of Madeleine's bed you have seen the curtain colour even if you can't really see that distance in the darkened room.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2016, 10:36:13 PM
So Amaral got it wrong? What is clear to me the bed covers and the curtains appear to match in design and colour so if you see the end of Madeleine's bed you have seen the curtain colour even if you can't really see that distance in the darkened room.
I dont know if he got anythng wrong, never had a professional translation of his book and even if we did certain words dont necessarily mean what they seem to mean
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 10:44:31 PM
I dont know if he got anythng wrong, never had a professional translation of his book and even if we did certain words dont necessarily mean what they seem to mean
It would be really useful to get Kate or Gerry to join the forum. Then we could get first hand knowledge if there were blackout curtains as well as the long ones touching the floor. You might be right the word "blackout" might be translated wrongly but should be a word like "privacy" as is delivered by lace curtains.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2016, 10:59:57 PM
It would be really useful to get Kate or Gerry to join the forum. Then we could get first hand knowledge if there were blackout curtains as well as the long ones touching the floor. You might be right the word "blackout" might be translated wrongly but should be a word like "privacy" as is delivered by lace curtains.
Thats an extremely silly suggestion
For curtains you only need residents or management to tell you, perhaps you could email the ocean club and ask if their thicker curtains had blackout linings if youre that interested
As to the op question, still not seeing why a purple and white curtains would seem green and yellow
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 11:08:14 PM
For curtains you only need residents or management to tell you, perhaps you could email the ocean club and ask if their thicker curtains had blackout linings if youre that interested
As to the op question, still not seeing why a purple and white curtains would seem green and yellow
I'm trying to work out which curtains blew in the wind. I could imagine shorter ones (if there were any) lifting up but the long ones (one the photo) hardly. The longer ones could part a bit but they wouldn't normally woosh like she describes. Even though little whirl winds are possible.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2016, 11:12:12 PM
I'm trying to work out which curtains blew in the wind. I could imagine shorter ones (if there were any) lifting up but the long ones (one the photo) hardly. The longer ones could part a bit but they wouldn't normally woosh like she describes. Even though little whirl winds are possible.
Ibelieve kate mccann was referring to the long curtains that blew aside in the wind, as if it was just the nets they wouldnt affect the long ones as they (ghghe nets) were inside them and wouldnt be seen
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 11:16:50 PM
Ibelieve kate mccann was referring to the long curtains that blew aside in the wind, as if it was just the nets they wouldnt affect the long ones as they (ghghe nets) were inside them and wouldnt be seen
OK sounds sensible.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2016, 11:20:42 PM
For curtains you only need residents or management to tell you, perhaps you could email the ocean club and ask if their thicker curtains had blackout linings if youre that interested
As to the op question, still not seeing why a purple and white curtains would seem green and yellow
The curtains are blue & white, not purple & white. What do you get if you mix blue with amber & white with amber?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2016, 11:28:28 PM
The curtains are blue & white, not purple & white. What do you get if you mix blue with amber & white with amber?
Dunno you tell us youre the expert
Is it green?
Matthews Says so
I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 11:35:08 PM
I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow
It is something like 1 in 10 males have a degree of colorblindness. So these colours could quite easily be confused.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2016, 11:35:57 PM
I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow
Get your paint pots & brushes out!
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 11:38:29 PM
I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow
How do you explain the starting bit to your quote: "I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters..."?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2016, 11:43:34 PM
If the shutters were down the curtains would not have had a green & yellow hue. He could see the curtains from the doorway to the bedroom where he stood to observe.
It is my understanding that the shutters could be down at two levels, misty.
1) They could be down but with the slats not fully closed, so exposing multiple small slots which let in light throwing a little light into the room, OR
2) They could be hard down, with all the slots closed off, so no light came thru.
Difficult for us to know if the shutters were in position 1) or whether they were actually lifted when Matt did his 9.30 check.
Because so little street light would have penetrated the heads of the trees (as it was then) surrounding block 5, I tend to favour that the shutters were actually lifted at Matts visit.
Seems Madeleine had actually been abducted by 9.30, IMO
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2016, 10:10:21 PM
You might wish to check Matthew's statement in Portuguese. From memory, Pathfinder has raised the point that the bedroom Matthew was talking about having light from outside was the parents' bedroom, not the children's.
That's the first I have heard of it being the parents bedroom that Matt was talking about. where did she get that info from?
I feel sure he was talking about the childrens bedroom. Pls correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 27, 2016, 06:35:07 AM
I fear low pressure sodium lamps may be in short supply for such a test. An orange filter will not do as it will still let light of other wavelengths through. You would also need material from the same batch and different cloth dyes may well give different results
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 27, 2016, 09:08:35 PM
I'm tending to believe he was right for how did the wind blow into the apartment unless there was somewhere for it to go. Trouble is no one else noted these shutters up.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 04:56:36 AM
Who would have shut these shutters and not say anything?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 28, 2016, 10:37:25 AM
I'm tending to believe he was right for how did the wind blow into the apartment unless there was somewhere for it to go. Trouble is no one else noted these shutters up.
It went to an area of low pressure!
Buildings are not sealed in the sense they become airtight.
The second link confirms what I was saying. ..... the wind blows into the apartment if there was somewhere for it to go. .... Note: "in and out of the building" not just in one direction
There is always somewhere for it to go.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 05:37:51 PM
There will be a big increase in the airflow through a building if there is somewhere for it to go. To get the curtains to flap upward like Kate described I'd imagine there needed to be two windows open or a window and an external door open. But It is hard to tell now, but in Kate's words she checked the sliding door and that was shut. But she didn't check to see if the window in the main bedroom was also open.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 28, 2016, 06:47:34 PM
There will be a big increase in the airflow through a building if there is somewhere for it to go. To get the curtains to flap upward like Kate described I'd imagine there needed to be two windows open or a window and an external door open. But It is hard to tell now, but in Kate's words she checked the sliding door and that was shut. But she didn't check to see if the window in the main bedroom was also open.
It goes in one side and out the other all the time quite naturally because buildings are not airtight. What is the cause of the increase in flowrate to which you refer? Temperature differential? pressure differential? artificial means?.
Just start with a few basic premises: 1. Air moves from high pressure areas to low pressure areas. 2. No building is air tight so there will always be infiltration/ exfiltration through natural leakage paths. 3. The curtains moved in a specific direction so you can reasonably define where HP and LP were at the time the curtains moved. Work from that and try to think in a larger domain size than a single room or apartment. I doubt any conclusive answer will be reached though. Is it important in the long run? it has no bearing on what colour curtains Matt saw and is that relevant to anything?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 08:31:47 PM
It goes in one side and out the other all the time quite naturally because buildings are not airtight. What is the cause of the increase in flowrate to which you refer? Temperature differential? pressure differential? artificial means?.
Just start with a few basic premises: 1. Air moves from high pressure areas to low pressure areas. 2. No building is air tight so there will always be infiltration/ exfiltration through natural leakage paths. 3. The curtains moved in a specific direction so you can reasonably define where HP and LP were at the time the curtains moved. Work from that and try to think in a larger domain size than a single room or apartment. I doubt any conclusive answer will be reached though. Is it important in the long run? it has no bearing on what colour curtains Matt saw and is that relevant to anything?
It is very important whether there were two windows opened or just the one. If there is no way to reconstruct the flapping of the curtains with just the one window open, we have to assume Matt was right and someone had altered the main bedroom windows and slates as well. Then you would have to ask why this was never found after the alert. The length of the curtains will come into the equation. Maybe not their colour.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 28, 2016, 08:55:10 PM
It is very important whether there were two windows opened or just the one. If there is no way to reconstruct the flapping of the curtains with just the one window open, we have to assume Matt was right and someone had altered the main bedroom windows and slates as well. Then you would have to ask why this was never found after the alert. The length of the curtains will come into the equation. Maybe not their colour.
Why?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 08:58:02 PM
Would a burglar either open an unlocked sliding door and walk in and out or open the slats and hold then up somehow and then open the window and then climb over the sill, all the time the heavy slats could come crashing back down? Both of these entrances were on the same side of the building. When Matt and Kate came up to the patio door neither of them noted the slats of the main bedroom open. It would have been possible to notice this I presume as one climbed the stairs. Still it is not essential to have noticed this. Yet the light coming through the open shutters would have a bearing on the colour of the curtains as seen from the inside.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 09:03:37 PM
Why? Why were there were two windows opened and not just the one? Its an important question in my book. Would a child kidnapper open two windows? If the sliding door is unlocked why go out through a different window? In fact once inside even the front door becomes a possible exit point. It seems silly to open two windows when none would be required.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 09:25:51 PM
I presume Kate would have turned on the light in their room when has did the initial search of the room, so the colour of the curtains would just be normal under that light, and not affected by light being transferred through the fabric. I have just remembered when she checked the main bedroom the kid's door was closed (it had previously had slammed shut), the patio door was closed (she had checked that). Whether she left the kid's door open or closed when she checked the main bedroom, it is a little uncertain. If the door to the kid's bedroom was left closed there would be no through draught to make the curtains flap when she was in the main bedroom. Then she goes and reopens the kid's bedroom and that is when she notices the curtains whooshing. So logically and physically she has described a very plausible scenario. So if the whole physics of the situation requires an additional open window how come no one reported this? Described in pages 93 - 95 of Madeleine.
(Yet Matt refers to it in his statement, describing what he recollects during his check, and he says he didn't go into the apartment after the alert.) Personally I think we are onto a major finding here!
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 28, 2016, 10:35:51 PM
Why? Why were there were two windows opened and not just the one? Its an important question in my book. Would a child kidnapper open two windows? If the sliding door is unlocked why go out through a different window? In fact once inside even the front door becomes a possible exit point. It seems silly to open two windows when none would be required.
My thoughts are that The Mccanns possibly left open the two side windows in the sitting room when they went out> the day had been quite warm and the flat may well have been quite hot. The side windows were not any security risk as they were so higgh above the pavement tht they were like upstairs windows.
It is quite possible that they also left the patio doors to their room open, behind lowered shutters.
Either of these windows / doors could have contributed to the slamming of the bedroom door when it seems a sudden gust happened.
Alternatively, it is not impossible that someone let themselves out, via the bedroom patio doors, as Kate opened /closed Madeleines bedroom door, which it seems coincided with a sudden gust..
A thru draft.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 28, 2016, 11:19:03 PM
My thoughts are that The Mccanns possibly left open the two side windows in the sitting room when they went out> the day had been quite warm and the flat may well have been quite hot. The side windows were not any security risk as they were so higgh above the pavement tht they were like upstairs windows.
It is quite possible that they also left the patio doors to their room open, behind lowered shutters.
Either of these windows / doors could have contributed to the slamming of the bedroom door when it seems a sudden gust happened.
Alternatively, it is not impossible that someone let themselves out, via the bedroom patio doors, as Kate opened /closed Madeleines bedroom door, which it seems coincided with a sudden gust..
A thru draft.
Well it is possible but if we are to go off photos were there any photos showing these open? I don't know what patio doors you are talking about . In the plan there are just 4 major openings to the apartment. 2 windows and two doors.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 28, 2016, 11:28:42 PM
Why? Why were there were two windows opened and not just the one? Its an important question in my book. Would a child kidnapper open two windows? If the sliding door is unlocked why go out through a different window? In fact once inside even the front door becomes a possible exit point. It seems silly to open two windows when none would be required.
Who said two windows were open?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 28, 2016, 11:53:59 PM
Well it is possible but if we are to go off photos were there any photos showing these open? I don't know what patio doors you are talking about . In the plan there are just 4 major openings to the apartment. 2 windows and two doors.
I have enlarged this image of Kate and Gerrys bedroom x 500 to have a good look at it....
I am struggling to see it clearly, but there appears to be an old fashioned handle half way up the patio door / window, with a key hole beneath
I think it is a patio door. There is a small balcony outside which is an extension to the main balcony.
This patio door,(or French door) if it is such, would be out of the glow from the street light bathing the main patio and patio windows. Furthermore it is partially behind a big bush IIRC
Please feel free to check me, cos my eyesight is not so good these days
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2016, 12:34:56 AM
That is the third door nobody talks about and leads to the area Eddie was interested in. See my theory for more details. One inadequate print was found.
Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 12:48:58 AM
Yes they seem to be the bifold type of window, right down to the floor. It seems as you approach the patio you go past these windows, the shutters could be down or up. If they were folding internally they could be open but then they would show through the curtains. They could be closed but the shutters up, but how come no one notices this?
In the crime scene photo the curtains aren't closed so someone has been behind the curtain by that stage.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 05:21:17 AM
The physics might show there had to be two windows open to get the through draught seen on the day. We need to a reconstruction at the apartment to see how many windows need to be open to get the curtains to whoosh.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 29, 2016, 03:03:35 PM
The physics might show there had to be two windows open to get the through draught seen on the day. We need to a reconstruction at the apartment to see how many windows need to be open to get the curtains to whoosh.
How do you know it was a throughdraft? Please demonstrate how physics will dictate that an orifice has to be a window. The first reconstruction you need to do is to replicate all atmospheric conditions. If I am reading your postulation correctly it is your belief that with one widow open "the system" remains in equilibrium and any change to that equilibrium can only be resultant from another window being opened?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: John on September 29, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
The physics might show there had to be two windows open to get the through draught seen on the day. We need to a reconstruction at the apartment to see how many windows need to be open to get the curtains to whoosh.
Not necessarily Rob, an open window and a slightly open patio door would provide the perfect circumstances for a through draught. Could be Kate didn't close the patio door while she checked the children while Matt did.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2016, 03:37:33 PM
Kate McCann: Well it was 10 o'clock when I went to check on Madeleine and, errm... I walked into the sitting room of the apartment and I noticed that the children's bedroom door was open further than we'd left it. We always close it quite far over but just enough so some light gets in and it was quite open. And it was our friend Matt who had checked on the children at half past nine when he was checking on his daughter next door, and I thought to myself well maybe... maybe Matt's left the door open when he's checked on them. So I walked over to the bedroom door and I was about to close it to again, and as I did that, it kind of slammed shut, and I thought, 'oh, there must be a draught' and I checked the door behind me and I hadn't left that open.
And then I opened the door again, of the children's bedroom, just to leave it open a little bit and that's when I really looked in. And I... I couldn't quite make out Madeleine in her bed and I just looked and looked and, errm... it was obviously quite dark, and it must be a parental thing where you don't switch a light on in case... you're worried about waking them but then I realised she wasn't actually there and I thought, well she must have wandered through to our bedroom and maybe that would explain why door was open. So I went into... to our bedroom and she wasn't there and that was the first time really that the panic hit and I just ran back into her bedroom, and literally at that point, errm... the curtains which were closed just kind of flew open and that was when I noticed that the window was open as far as it could go and the shutters outside had been raised all the way up. And I just knew straight away that someone had, errm... taken her, so...
Aired: Friday 23 March 2012 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id411.html
2:36
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 04:39:05 PM
That is the third door nobody talks about and leads to the area Eddie was interested in. See my theory for more details. One inadequate print was found.
Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
If the 'window' in Kate and Gerrys room is actually a patio door / french window, why on earth did the PJ ignore it?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 04:44:22 PM
Yes they seem to be the bifold type of window, right down to the floor. It seems as you approach the patio you go past these windows, the shutters could be down or up. If they were folding internally they could be open but then they would show through the curtains. They could be closed but the shutters up, but how come no one notices this?
In the crime scene photo the curtains aren't closed so someone has been behind the curtain by that stage.
No you don't actually go past them, Rob, although as you mount the stairs you are going towards them. You turn right a metre or so before you get to them ... so no-one actually physically passes them
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 04:48:35 PM
The physics might show there had to be two windows open to get the through draught seen on the day. We need to a reconstruction at the apartment to see how many windows need to be open to get the curtains to whoosh.
You would have to get the exact wind conditions, force and direction, to hope to successfully run that test, Rob. It is unlikely that it would be possible to properly replicate the relatively unknown, altho an approximation might do.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 04:56:04 PM
Why? Why were there were two windows opened and not just the one? Its an important question in my book. Would a child kidnapper open two windows? If the sliding door is unlocked why go out through a different window? In fact once inside even the front door becomes a possible exit point. It seems silly to open two windows when none would be required.
The one safe high-up living room window would probably have been left open by The Mccanns, in order to cool the apartment; the other in Madeleines bedroom opened by the abductor as an escape route IMO
Or it is not impossible, it seems, that the parents bedroom patio door, if that is what it was, was not closed behind lowered shutters.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: ferryman on September 29, 2016, 04:59:38 PM
Kate McCann: Well it was 10 o'clock when I went to check on Madeleine and, errm... I walked into the sitting room of the apartment and I noticed that the children's bedroom door was open further than we'd left it. We always close it quite far over but just enough so some light gets in and it was quite open. And it was our friend Matt who had checked on the children at half past nine when he was checking on his daughter next door, and I thought to myself well maybe... maybe Matt's left the door open when he's checked on them. So I walked over to the bedroom door and I was about to close it to again, and as I did that, it kind of slammed shut, and I thought, 'oh, there must be a draught' and I checked the door behind me and I hadn't left that open.
And then I opened the door again, of the children's bedroom, just to leave it open a little bit and that's when I really looked in. And I... I couldn't quite make out Madeleine in her bed and I just looked and looked and, errm... it was obviously quite dark, and it must be a parental thing where you don't switch a light on in case... you're worried about waking them but then I realised she wasn't actually there and I thought, well she must have wandered through to our bedroom and maybe that would explain why door was open. So I went into... to our bedroom and she wasn't there and that was the first time really that the panic hit and I just ran back into her bedroom, and literally at that point, errm... the curtains which were closed just kind of flew open and that was when I noticed that the window was open as far as it could go and the shutters outside had been raised all the way up. And I just knew straight away that someone had, errm... taken her, so...
Aired: Friday 23 March 2012 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id411.html
2:36
And Amie Tiery (sp)
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
Why do you have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 05:07:06 PM
How do you know it was a throughdraft? Please demonstrate how physics will dictate that an orifice has to be a window. The first reconstruction you need to do is to replicate all atmospheric conditions. If I am reading your postulation correctly it is your belief that with one widow open "the system" remains in equilibrium and any change to that equilibrium can only be resultant from another window being opened?
what you are saying is correct Alice BUT
and it is a big BUT ....
For the gust of wind to create such a force that it not only flared the flimsy curtains but ALSO was strong enough to slam the door closed indicates, in my opinion, a much greater difference in atmospheric pressures than was likely from differences in pressures between the inside of the flat and outside.
After all the door had been ajar for a considerable period and the atmospheric pressures in the falt would have normalized throughout.
IMHO, there had to be a thru draft to create such a force.
There was no chimney, was there? ... so it had to be a door or window open at the opposite end of the apartment, it seems. Maybe the side living room windows would suffice? Dunno. A door ior window had to be open, it seems.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 05:11:46 PM
Not necessarily Rob, an open window and a slightly open patio door would provide the perfect circumstances for a through draught. Could be Kate didn't close the patio door while she checked the children while Matt did.
She went back to check it, didn't she John?
Opening it earlier as she came thru and then closing it, could not have caused a later draught.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 05:49:36 PM
How do you know it was a throughdraft? Please demonstrate how physics will dictate that an orifice has to be a window. The first reconstruction you need to do is to replicate all atmospheric conditions. If I am reading your postulation correctly it is your belief that with one widow open "the system" remains in equilibrium and any change to that equilibrium can only be resultant from another window being opened?
Opening could be any of the small windows, or air ventilation system, or other door being open.
Every photo seems to have the windows on the road side are shut. Ruled out. No one has said the front door was open. Ruled out. Sliding patio door checked to be closed by Kate. Ruled out. So the two openings that we don't know about. 1. Air conditioning duct causing up-draughts. 2. The bifold door in the parents room allowing a through draught. Matt's visit to the main bedroom casts doubt on this window.
If the door in the parent's room was partially open sandwiched between the shutters and the curtains it could go missed.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 06:07:02 PM
Opening could be any of the small windows, or air ventilation system, or other door being open.
Every photo seems to have the windows on the road side are shut. Ruled out. No one has said the front door was open. Ruled out. Sliding patio door checked to be closed by Kate. Ruled out. So the two openings that we don't know about. 1. Air conditioning duct causing up-draughts. 2. The bifold door in the parents room allowing a through draught. Matt's visit to the main bedroom casts doubt on this window.
If the door in the parent's room was partially open sandwiched between the shutters and the curtains it could go missed.
1. The flats look too old and not up-market enough for air conditioning, but I am happy to be proven wrong. 2. Why would Matts visit cast doubt upon this? the gusts only got going later. When he visited at about 9.30 could have been the lull before the storm.
Quote
Every photo seems to have the windows on the road side are shut. Ruled out.
Why ruled out, Rob ? All the photos taken of 5A were after the Mccanns left and probably with no-one in residence. The side windows almost certainly would be closed when no-one was in residence.
You cant rule these windows out based on that Rob.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 06:12:18 PM
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
Why do you have a problem with that?
I have a problem with Amy's statement for it doesn't seem too logical. It would be some minutes after the alarm raised and by that stage people had moved the open window (in fact could have easily closed it). She notices the shutters partially up (by that stage anyone could have lowered the shutters).
And she seems to think that halfway through the night that Madeleine (nearly 4 years old) would have found her shoes and put them on before wandering off. I'm not too sure if that would happen. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
Quote
She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 06:28:11 PM
1. The flats look too old and not up-market enough for air conditioning, but I am happy to be proven wrong. 2. Why would Matts visit cast doubt upon this? the gusts only got going later. When he visited at about 9.30 could have been the lull before the storm.
Why ruled out, Rob ? All the photos taken of 5A were after the Mccanns left and probably with no-one in residence. The side windows almost certainly would be closed when no-one was in residence.
You cant rule these windows out based on that Rob.
"The flats look too old and not up-market enough for air conditioning, but I am happy to be proven wrong." Possible. "Why would Matts visit cast doubt upon this? the gusts only got going later. When he visited at about 9.30 could have been the lull before the storm." Yes the doubt only coming from the description of the shutters of the main bedroom window. "Why ruled out, Rob ? All the photos taken of 5A were after the Mccanns left and probably with no-one in residence." OK how about this? If Kate knew they were open she would have considered these windows in the differential diagnoses of the slamming door. So I think as far as she was aware they were shut.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 29, 2016, 07:07:34 PM
"The flats look too old and not up-market enough for air conditioning, but I am happy to be proven wrong." Possible. "Why would Matts visit cast doubt upon this? the gusts only got going later. When he visited at about 9.30 could have been the lull before the storm." Yes the doubt only coming from the description of the shutters of the main bedroom window. "Why ruled out, Rob ? All the photos taken of 5A were after the Mccanns left and probably with no-one in residence." OK how about this? If Kate knew they were open she would have considered these windows in the differential diagnoses of the slamming door. So I think as far as she was aware they were shut.
That is possible, ... but also possible is the fact that the side window could have opened more with the draught, lifting it off the latch .... then immediately the gust was over it could have closed itself. Not likely, but not impossible.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 29, 2016, 07:21:09 PM
Opening could be any of the small windows, or air ventilation system, or other door being open.
Every photo seems to have the windows on the road side are shut. Ruled out. No one has said the front door was open. Ruled out. Sliding patio door checked to be closed by Kate. Ruled out. So the two openings that we don't know about. 1. Air conditioning duct causing up-draughts. 2. The bifold door in the parents room allowing a through draught. Matt's visit to the main bedroom casts doubt on this window.
If the door in the parent's room was partially open sandwiched between the shutters and the curtains it could go missed.
You have yet to consider volume, rate, wind direction*, the fact thst gases are compressible and the force required to billow curtains.
* in view of it's proximity to the sea likely blowing from the north. Have you bothered to plot all this out in the correct orientation? I am still strubbling with it's relevance to : "Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 29, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
Why do you have a problem with that?
For timeline purposes it is very worrying because Dianne Webster couldn't raise the shutter as seen in the crime scene photos (twisted and stuck) so how Amy saw them raised after Dianne doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 09:20:44 PM
You have yet to consider volume, rate, wind direction*, the fact thst gases are compressible and the force required to billow curtains.
* in view of it's proximity to the sea likely blowing from the north. Have you bothered to plot all this out in the correct orientation? I am still strubbling with it's relevance to : "Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Well do you think the same curtains are still there? The same fabric colour and density, and if they are we can wait till we get a day of similar weather pattern as 03/05/2007 which has definitely been recorded, and then attempt the reconstruction of the whooshing curtains.
As far as orientation it is simply North facing children's bedroom. I would prefer to do the reconstruction in apartment 5A to keep as many factors as possible the same.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 09:58:16 PM
We need to remind ourselves of what Matthew Oldfield says about the curtains in the main bedroom.
Matt's rogatory statement:
Quote
4078 'I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were in the apartment for, I have forgotten'' Reply 'It can't have been more than a couple of minutes, because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'.
Gosh, I get a bad feeling when I read about Matt's check of the front side of the apartment:
Quote
4078 'Can you make any comment on the door or, erm, is this a window as well, it is not, is it'' Reply 'Erm, there's a window, I think, well from the drawing I don't recall it as a window there, that's the front door here, then you come round past the shutters, and we listened outside here, and the front door there. I, it's, I can't say, I don't recall it being open, I'm sure, I presume that I would have seen it, but I can't guarantee that it wasn't, erm, it wasn't shut at that point.
He couldn't even guarantee the front door was closed!
On the 10th May statement nothing is very definite either:
Quote
That he did not enter the bedroom where MBM and the twins were sleeping. He recalls that the bedroom door was half open, making an angle of 50 degrees. He does not know how far away he was from the bedroom door. He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed but could not determine if the window was closed or open. Concerning the external blinds he clarifies that he did not see if it was closed or open. He recalls having thought that in that bedroom there was more brightness than there was in his daughter's room (where the external blinds were always fully closed), adding to have had the feeling that that light was coming from the outside - making the point that both were turned in the same direction.
Consequently, he admits the possibility of the light he was perceiving was owing to the blinds being raised, denying however that he was capable of assessing the height at which it may have been.
The question asked, he was sure that, at the time of his first being in the vicinity of MBM's bedroom, reported as 21h05 in the course of which he had approached the the window of that bedroom from the outside for the purpose of an auditory check, the blinds were, in his view, fully closed.
Consequently, he is convinced that at the time of the second check the blinds were more open than on the first check, given that he considers that the light inside the bedroom, undoubtedly coming from the outside, could not have been coming through it [the blinds] if they had been fully closed.
On the original statement 4th. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm
Quote
At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light was not from an artificial source inside the apartment, but perhaps something coming from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
The shutters could have been up and the window could have been open! (Basically he couldn't see because the curtain was closed.) And no further mention of this window by anyone yet in the crime scene photo the shutters are down, the window is closed and the curtain is open. All the opposites to what Matt saw or thought were possible.
I intend to send this to SY so they can question Kate and Gerry re the security check they had made prior to going to the Tapas Bar. Did they check the bifold door?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 29, 2016, 10:16:04 PM
For timeline purposes it is very worrying because Dianne Webster couldn't raise the shutter as seen in the crime scene photos (twisted and stuck) so how Amy saw them raised after Dianne doesn't add up.
I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually:
Quote
- In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ". - Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE
- She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
- Because she was asked, she says she does not know if the window, and the shutter, of the couple's bedroom were open or not, in that she did not enter that room.
Why is she trying the shutters out?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2016, 12:36:33 AM
Do we all agree we can't be sure if the window in the adult's bedroom was secure during the evening up to the time the PJ took the photo? Do we all agree it would be odd behaviour for an intruder to lift the shutters on the main bedroom if the sliding door right beside this window was unlocked and without the hinderance of having to lift shutters?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 01:13:21 AM
I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually: Why is she trying the shutters out?
Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called? What was the purpose? What difference would it have made to anything? Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2016, 01:54:58 AM
Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called? What was the purpose? What difference would it have made to anything? Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.
Can't agree more .I have a feeling once you lift them from the outside it throws them off the tracks and they jamb in a slightly raised position. Which means unless the shutters are wound up as well, from the inside, the shutter won't be found fully up. From the outside you can lift them up but they won't stay up.
She would have been doing that on her own wouldn't she? Summing up the situation.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2016, 01:57:58 AM
I think Dianne Webster needs a separate thread actually: Why is she trying the shutters out?
"She states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open." Dianne tampered with the crime scene. Crack on I'm not stopping you 8(>((
Fiona wouldn't touch that shutter. She arrived at the apartment after Dianne had tried raising the shutter.
1485 'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
Reply 'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
00.50.31 1485 'And''
Reply 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'.
Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called? What was the purpose? What difference would it have made to anything? Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.
Obviously invited to? Cite please
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 08:59:48 AM
It is a crime scene Sadie! I think you might have practiced on a neighbouring window.
Remember, Diane had been away from the search action. Maybe she didn't realise that it was a crime scene and still thought that it was a case of a little girl climbing out of the window and walking off.
She was trying to work out how a little girl like Madeleine managed it IMO
I am sure that had she realised it was a crime scene, she wouldn't have touched anything
ETA: And from Fionas statement above, it appears she tried to lift the shutter too. Maybe several of them did?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 09:14:29 AM
Why was anyone trying the shutters out tampering with evidencebeforethe police were even called? What was the purpose? What difference would it have made to anything? Gerry Mccann said they were very conscious of no one touching anything in the room for forensic reasons so restricted the access . So?? Doesnt make sense. Does anyone think a grandma in the party took it on herself to test the shutters? She was obviously invited to. What for? Answers on a postcard.
Who thinks of forensics when they are in a state of shock after finding their daughter missing? In my opinion Gerry wanted to see if the shutters could be raised from outside to rule out that Madeleine could have opened them from the inside. He found that they could be raised. Dianne wanted to see for herself by the look of it maybe she just wasn't strong enough to lift them.
When the McCann's were absolutely sure that Madeleine couldn't have got out of the apartment by herself then they made sure nothing was touched in the bedroom.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 30, 2016, 09:21:14 AM
Who thinks of forensics when they are in a state of shock after finding their daughter missing? In my opinion Gerry wanted to see if the shutters could be raised from outside to rule out that Madeleine could have opened them from the inside. He found that they could be raised. Dianne wanted to see for herself by the look of it maybe she just wasn't strong enough to lift them.
When the McCann's were absolutely sure that Madeleine couldn't have got out of the apartment by herself then they made sure nothing was touched in the bedroom.
Do we regard the "They've taken her" as a myth?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 09:30:43 AM
Who thinks of forensics when they are in a state of shock after finding their daughter missing? In my opinion Gerry wanted to see if the shutters could be raised from outside to rule out that Madeleine could have opened them from the inside. He found that they could be raised. Dianne wanted to see for herself by the look of it maybe she just wasn't strong enough to lift them.
When the McCann's were absolutely sure that Madeleine couldn't have got out of the apartment by herself then they made sure nothing was touched in the bedroom.
who thinks abduction in a state of shock
your post as usual is full of ....maybe......could have ....opinion speculation
yet k mcc.......knew straight away maddie had been abducted.....
so ran out the apartment ..............
then let every one trample in there ......
after knowing ..they had taken her
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Benice on September 30, 2016, 09:50:33 AM
your post as usual is full of ....maybe......could have ....opinion speculation
yet k mcc.......knew straight away maddie had been abducted.....
so ran out the apartment ..............
then let every one trample in there ......
after knowing ..they had taken her
Indeed Xtina.
They claimed abduction too quickly, yet they were searching around the apartment and just outside, or so we are told.
Now we were also told initially, the apartment was locked, then a few days later it became unlocked, so Madeleine, if that was true could have walked out.
Then we have the protestation on the floor when the Police arrived, wailing, reminiscent of people praying.
Very little of the Mccanns accounts of events make sense.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 09:53:25 AM
Why is it foolish to ask you go clarify your comment which was in response to this question from Starti? :-
''Do we regard the "They've taken her" as a myth?''
Your answer of ''Indeed Starti. After all the Mccanns weren't there in the apartment, when Madeleine disappeared, were they.'' doesn't make sense as Starti was asking a question not making a statement.
Could you please clarify whether you think it's a myth or not. And if you believe it is a myth - then why do you believe that?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 10:37:31 AM
Why is it foolish to ask you go clarify your comment which was in response to this question from Starti? :-
''Do we regard the "They've taken her" as a myth?''
Your answer of ''Indeed Starti. After all the Mccanns weren't there in the apartment, when Madeleine disappeared, were they.'' doesn't make sense as Starti was asking a question not making a statement.
Could you please clarify whether you think it's a myth or not. And if you believe it is a myth - then why do you believe that?
How do you know that Kate Mccanns accounts of events are factual ?
Is it a belief on your part ?
Were you there ?
Since Kate McCann wasn't in the apartment when Madeleine disappeared, how would she know what happened ?
Have you forgotten what she said as regards this outside a Portuguese Court ?
There is no written law, to say that I have to believe Kate Mccanns story is there ?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Benice on September 30, 2016, 11:01:24 AM
your post as usual is full of ....maybe......could have ....opinion speculation
yet k mcc.......knew straight away maddie had been abducted.....
so ran out the apartment ..............
then let every one trample in there ......
after knowing ..they had taken her
I notice that while you blame the parents for not behaving like policemen as soon as they found Madeleine missing -you have no criticism at all of the actual policemen themselves whose duty it was to behave like policemen - but who failed miserably to secure the area as a priority - resulting in far more people than necessary being allowed into 5A and dog hairs and fingerprint powder to be deposited all over the floors.
How anyone can ignore those mistakes made by policemen who should have known better - but instead choose to blame the distraught parents for not doing their job for them is incomprehensible to me.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 11:06:22 AM
your post as usual is full of ....maybe......could have ....opinion speculation
yet k mcc.......knew straight away maddie had been abducted.....
so ran out the apartment ..............
then let every one trample in there ......
after knowing ..they had taken her
Are you for real? Do you not think that parents who find their child missing would not think that someone had taken her? I would think it would be more or less the first thing they would think of especially in a state of shock.
Should Kate and Gerry have stood at the door of 5a and say 'don't come in' you are being ridiculous, obviously people are going to enter 5a when they hear a child is missing.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 11:07:28 AM
I notice that while you blame the parents for not behaving like policemen as soon as they found Madeleine missing -you have no criticism at all of the actual policemen themselves whose duty it was to behave like policemen - but who failed miserably to secure the area as a priority - resulting in far more people than necessary being allowed into 5A and dog hairs and fingerprint powder to be deposited all over the floors.
How anyone can ignore those mistakes made by policemen who should have known better - but instead choose to blame the distraught parents for not doing their job for them is incomprehensible to me.
Utter rubbish.
Madeleine was searched for extensively.
By the police, local residents and holidaymakers.
So don't try pulling on that old myth yet again.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 11:09:20 AM
Why is it foolish to ask you go clarify your comment which was in response to this question from Starti? :-
''Do we regard the "They've taken her" as a myth?''
Your answer of ''Indeed Starti. After all the Mccanns weren't there in the apartment, when Madeleine disappeared, were they.'' doesn't make sense as Starti was asking a question not making a statement.
Could you please clarify whether you think it's a myth or not. And if you believe it is a myth - then why do you believe that?
I was recalling facts, in case you hadn't noticed, including from Kate Mccanns mouth.
So tell me how could Kate Mccann say Madeleine had been abducted, if she wasn't there ?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 11:09:53 AM
They claimed abduction too quickly, yet they were searching around the apartment and just outside, or so we are told.
Now we were also told initially, the apartment was locked, then a few days later it became unlocked, so Madeleine, if that was true could have walked out.
Then we have the protestation on the floor when the Police arrived, wailing, reminiscent of people praying.
Very little of the Mccanns accounts of events make sense.
Abduction would be the first thing I would think of if I came back and found my child missing and a window open, of course you would still look around outside in the hope that she may have wandered out.
The front door was locked.
How can you mock Kate and Gerry praying and crying for their child, disgusting.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Abduction would be the first thing I would think of if I came back and found my child missing and a window open, of course you would still look around outside in the hope that she may have wandered out.
The front door was locked.
How can you mock Kate and Gerry praying and crying for their child, disgusting.
The other door was open, or so they claim, after first saying it was locked.
As to praying, I have never believed them to be committed religious people.
To me their behaviour in front of the police was an act.
IMHO of course.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 11:28:15 AM
The other door was open, or so they claim, after first saying it was locked.
As to praying, I have never believed them to be committed religious people.
To me their behaviour in front of the police was an act.
IMHO of course.
Gerry got confused and corrected himself about through which door he entered to check on the children.
They went to church Stephen, I have never been in the position they were in, but I don't find it unusual that parents resorted to prayer when they felt hopelessly unable to help their child who they couldn't find and had no idea what was happening to her.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Benice on September 30, 2016, 11:29:13 AM
I was recalling facts, in case you hadn't noticed, including from Kate Mccanns mouth.
So tell me how could Kate Mccann say Madeleine had been abducted, if she wasn't there ?
But I thought you didn't believe anything that came from Kate McCanns mouth? Are you now saying that you do believe she said 'They've taken her'? Please clarify.
If you can't work out for yourself why - having found the windows and shutters open and Madeleine gone - Kate believed an intruder had entered the bedroom and taken her daughter- then there is no point in trying to explain it to you.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 11:47:27 AM
But I thought you didn't believe anything that came from Kate McCanns mouth? Are you now saying that you do believe she said 'They've taken her'? Please clarify.
If you can't work out for yourself why - having found the windows and shutters open and Madeleine gone - Kate believed an intruder had entered the bedroom and taken her daughter- then there is no point in trying to explain it to you.
Don't try twisting, it won't work.
What Kate Mccann said was heard by other people.
As to whether the window was open when she got there, well that has not been independently verified, has it.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 11:48:31 AM
That is a matter of perspective, as your intentions have always been clear cut.
Here is my post followed by your reply to it. Could you point out any connection between the points I made and your reply - as for the life of me I can't see any? I don't even mention 'searching' - so what myth am I trying to pull in that regard?
My post I notice that while you blame the parents for not behaving like policemen as soon as they found Madeleine missing -you have no criticism at all of the actual policemen themselves whose duty it was to behave like policemen - but who failed miserably to secure the area as a priority - resulting in far more people than necessary being allowed into 5A and dog hairs and fingerprint powder to be deposited all over the floors.
How anyone can ignore those mistakes made by policemen who should have known better - but instead choose to blame the distraught parents for not doing their job for them is incomprehensible to me.
Your reply Utter rubbish.
Madeleine was searched for extensively.
By the police, local residents and holidaymakers.
So don't try pulling on that old myth yet again.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 12:11:22 PM
Here is my post followed by your reply to it. Could you point out any connection between the points I made and your reply - as for the life of me I can't see any? I don't even mention 'searching' - so what myth am I trying to pull in that regard?
My post I notice that while you blame the parents for not behaving like policemen as soon as they found Madeleine missing -you have no criticism at all of the actual policemen themselves whose duty it was to behave like policemen - but who failed miserably to secure the area as a priority - resulting in far more people than necessary being allowed into 5A and dog hairs and fingerprint powder to be deposited all over the floors.
How anyone can ignore those mistakes made by policemen who should have known better - but instead choose to blame the distraught parents for not doing their job for them is incomprehensible to me.
Your reply Utter rubbish.
Madeleine was searched for extensively.
By the police, local residents and holidaymakers.
So don't try pulling on that old myth yet again.
I read your post.
It was your opinion.
Why did you FAIL yet again to state that the Mccanns and co., had already trampled through the apartment for apparently an abducted child.
So they contaminated the crime scene.
Your repeated criticism of the police in Portugal , common Mccann mantra of course doesn't wash, and never has or will.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 12:19:28 PM
I was recalling facts, in case you hadn't noticed, including from Kate Mccanns mouth.
So tell me how could Kate Mccann say Madeleine had been abducted, if she wasn't there ?
Stephen, you are not thinking this oit very well.
Have you considered the fact that Kate (and Gerry) as doctors, may have had to deal with abducted and assaulted children before .... and know the horrors first hand.
Have you not considered the fact that one of the first things to happen when they found Madeleine missing would be to have their minds racing thru all the possible scenarios? ... and in their despair vocalize the worst, but at the same time hope for the best ....
.....until it became obvious that the worst was what had happened.
Oh, the despair must have been terrible. Who is to criticize them for falling to their knees as they did ... and wailing.
I suspect that you have never had a real trauma in your life concerning your children (if you have any).
If you had then I cant imagine that you would even consider criticizing them for the depth of their despair.
And to suggest, as you did in an earlier post, that they put it on for the police is an insult to not only the Mccanns but to any right thinking person
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 12:29:32 PM
Have you considered the fact that Kate (and Gerry) as doctors, may have had to deal with abducted and assaulted children before .... and know the horrors first hand.
Have you not considered the fact that one of the first things to happen when they found Madeleine missing would be to have their minds racing thru all the possible scenarios? ... and in their despair vocalize the worst, but at the same time hope for the best ....
.....until it became obvious that the worst was what had happened.
Oh, the despair must have been terrible. Who is to criticize them for falling to their knees as they did ... and wailing.
I suspect that you have never had a real trauma in your life concerning your children (if you have any).
If you had then I cant imagine that you would even consider criticizing them for the depth of their despair.
And to suggest, as you did in an earlier post, that they put it on for the police is an insult to not only the Mccanns but to any right thinking person
Ah, classic Mccann supporter mantra.
'......And to suggest, as you did in an earlier post, that they put it on for the police is an insult to not only the Mccanns but to any right thinking person ................'
Any right thinking person would never have repeatedly placed in danger their children.
Followed by .....
'I suspect that you have never had a real trauma in your life concerning your children (if you have any).'
I'm afraid going down that track Sadie, is neither ethical or logical.
I have not and would never considered letting my children putting my children in such a dangerous position.
You see Sadie, when you make the commitment to have children, you have to take responsibility for your actions.
All I see from the Mccanns and some of their supporters, is the blame game. i.e. blame everyone else, but the Mccanns, for what happened and the aftermath.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 12:30:06 PM
They claimed abduction too quickly, yet they were searching around the apartment and just outside, or so we are told.
Now we were also told initially, the apartment was locked, then a few days later it became unlocked, so Madeleine, if that was true could have walked out.
Then we have the protestation on the floor when the Police arrived, wailing, reminiscent of people praying.
Very little of the Mccanns accounts of events make sense.
The Mccanns believed it to be locked.
At arrival, they were given an apartment with windows shut and blinds down. As Brits, unaccustomed to shutters, they believed them to be a form of lock, and the apartment to be locked at that moment in time, as would be the norm when moving into an empty apartment.
During their stay, they never attempted to open the windows or shutters .... so to them, in their minds, they were lockede.
The front door on the otherhand was not dead locked (double locked) but it was latched and needed a key to open it . It was single locked.
In the early days Gerry believed everything to be properly locked and it wasn't until he realised that the shutters could be lifted from outside that he realised his error.
Have you never made a simple mistake stephen?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 12:43:23 PM
At arrival, they were given an apartment with windows shut and blinds down. As Brits, unaccustomed to shutters, they believed them to be a form of lock, and the apartment to be locked at that moment in time, as would be the norm when moving into an empty apartment.
During their stay, they never attempted to open the windows or shutters .... so to them, in their minds, they were lockede.
The front door on the otherhand was not dead locked (double locked) but it was latched and needed a key to open it . It was single locked.
In the early days Gerry believed everything to be properly locked and it wasn't until he realised that the shutters could be lifted from outside that he realised his error.
Have you never made a simple mistake stephen?
A door is either locked or unlocked Sadie.
They locked the apartment in the daytime, or so we have been told.
Your excuses are simply irrelevant.
As to what they did when they arrived, you don't know what they did. You weren't there.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 30, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
Are you for real? Do you not think that parents who find their child missing would not think that someone had taken her? I would think it would be more or less the first thing they would think of especially in a state of shock.
Should Kate and Gerry have stood at the door of 5a and say 'don't come in' you are being ridiculous, obviously people are going to enter 5a when they hear a child is missing.
To be honest, no. Speaking as the grandparent of a nearly 4 year old, my first thought would be where have they got to now. If she really thought she had been taken, they should have been careful with the scene.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 01:16:49 PM
To be honest, no. Speaking as the grandparent of a nearly 4 year old, my first thought would be where have they got to now. If she really thought she had been taken, they should have been careful with the scene.
I expect 'where has she got to now' may have been Kate's first thought if she hadn't seen an open window, she still searched the apartment thought didn't she in case Madeleine was hiding somewhere, if after searching the apartment and not finding your child would you not think she has been abducted? I think Kate knew more or less straight away as soon as she saw the open window.
It would be very difficult to be careful with the scene, though I believe I read that they stopped anyone going near the bed. How do you stop people entering?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 01:25:30 PM
They locked the apartment in the daytime, or so we have been told.
Your excuses are simply irrelevant.
As to what they did when they arrived, you don't know what they did. You weren't there.
The front door was locked. It needed a key to open it.
The Mccanns naturally believed that the windows to an apartment they had just taken would be locked when the key was handed over. They felt no need to check them because like most Brits they thought that closed heavy shutters meant they were locked
The patio door was unlocked but it was lit by the street lamp immediately across the road ... and it was closed, so looked locked. The Mccanns and their friends were only 50 metres away, the bushes had just been hard cut back and they could clearly see the patio area, bathed in light. They were very much like they were in their back garden ....and of course the Tapas area was the garden to their apartments
You are trying to make a lot out of nothing stephen ..... IMO.(of course)
We dont know about the parents bedroom, whether that was open or closed. However the same situation with the shutters down (we believe) and being like locked for all intents and purposes, applied here too ... as in the childrens bedroom.
I would have expected the shutters to be unopenable from the outside, if to open on the inside I had to use a pulley type system ... and there was no such thing on the outside
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 01:29:25 PM
The front door was locked. It needed a key to open it.
The Mccanns naturally believed that the windows to an apartment they had just taken would be locked when the key was handed over. They felt no need to check them because like most Brits they thought that closed heavy shutters meant they were locked
The patio door was unlocked but it was lit by the street lamp immediately across the road ... and it was closed, so looked locked. The Mccanns and their friends were only 50 metres away, the bushes had just been hard cut back and they could clearly see the patio area, bathed in light. They were very much like they were in their back garden ....and of course the Tapas area was the garden to their apartments
You are trying to make a lot out of nothing stephen ..... IMO.(of course)
We dont know about the parents bedroom, whether that was open or closed. However the same situation with the shutters down (we believe) and being like locked for all intents and purposes, applied here too ... as in the childrens bedroom.
I would have expected the shutters to be unopenable from the outside, if to open on the inside I had to use a pulley type system ... and there was no such thing on the outside
You are making irrelevant excuses.
The locked the apartment during the daytime, or so they claim.
I was waiting for you to roll out yet again about 'being in the back garden'.
They weren't.
They were eating, drinking and socializing.
i.e. They were distracted.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 01:36:03 PM
'......And to suggest, as you did in an earlier post, that they put it on for the police is an insult to not only the Mccanns but to any right thinking person ................'
Any right thinking person would never have repeatedly placed in danger their children.
Followed by .....
'I suspect that you have never had a real trauma in your life concerning your children (if you have any).'
I'm afraid going down that track Sadie, is neither ethical or logical.
I have not and would never considered letting my children putting my children in such a dangerous position.
You see Sadie, when you make the commitment to have children, you have to take responsibility for your actions.
All I see from the Mccanns and some of their supporters, is the blame game. i.e. blame everyone else, but the Mccanns, for what happened and the aftermath.
Well neither the PJ [except Amaral and Co] nor SY appear to blame the Mccanns for what happened. They know that totally innocent misjudgements can happen. The Social Services in the UK see nothing to ring alarm bells about Kate and Gerrys parenting, but seems you know better than them.
I repeat '......And to suggest, as you did in an earlier post, that they put it on for the police is an insult to not only the Mccanns but to any right thinking person ................'
I think you may do well to search your soul on that one stephen...........
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 01:37:49 PM
The locked the apartment during the daytime, or so they claim.
I was waiting for you to roll out yet again about 'being in the back garden'.
They weren't.
They were eating, drinking and socializing.
i.e. They were distracted.
Like it , or not, stephen, they were in the back garden ... and only 50 metres away. The only unlocked entrance as far as they knew was bathed in light and very close. Why dont you measure out 50 metres and see just how close it is?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 01:51:14 PM
Like it , or not, stephen, they were in the back garden ... and only 50 metres away. The only unlocked entrance as far as they knew was bathed in light and very close. Why dont you measure out 50 metres and see just how close it is?
No Sadie.
You need to get a grip.
They weren't in their back garden, and if you think they were.................
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on September 30, 2016, 02:14:07 PM
They did lock the apartment during the day, who would you expect to be sneaking around at night? A burglar? An abductor?
Haha! A very good point. The people who criticise the McCanns for not locking the apartment at night and thereby putting their kids in harm's way are the very same people who find it virtually impossible to accept that an intruder entered the McCanns' apartment. Bizarre ain't it?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 02:19:03 PM
Haha! A very good point. The people who criticise the McCanns for not locking the apartment at night and thereby putting their kids in harm's way are the very same people who find it virtually impossible to accept that an intruder entered the McCanns' apartment. Bizarre ain't it?
Why is that bizarre ?
How many times have we been told the Mccanns felt they were in a safe place at the resort ?
Yet they locked their doors in the day time.
Did they fear the tooth fairy would steal all their belongings ?
Then of course Gerry Mccann, said 'nothing of value was taken...'.
Mmm.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: jassi on September 30, 2016, 02:33:15 PM
They say they felt safe, it was quiet, a holiday complex, family friendly, and they were checking on the children.
It's just so very said that someone who was no doubt keeping a watch on their comings and goings, had the opportunity to pounce. Something that will haunt the McCann's for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on September 30, 2016, 05:33:28 PM
Stephen didn't miss remember the facts the McCann's said they locked the apartment during the day, but not at night.
So. the McCann's feared burglary, yet did not have the logic and reason to protect their children.
If you think the McCanns failed to protect their kids from harm from intruders into the apartment then you must also acknowledge that such a threat was a real one and could therefore have occurred.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 05:39:55 PM
If you think the McCanns failed to protect their kids from harm from intruders into the apartment then you must also acknowledge that such a threat was a real one and could therefore have occurred.
Burglary is always a possibility.
Yet the McCann's claimed it felt safe.
It is the McCann supporters who are trying to have their cake....
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on September 30, 2016, 05:46:05 PM
It is the McCann supporters who are trying to have their cake....
In what way?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on September 30, 2016, 05:50:58 PM
One of the oft repeated mantras (for want of a better word) from "sceptics" (for want of a better word) is that burglars aren't interested in harming or abducting children - so how (in the opinion of the "sceptics") was leaving the door unlocked putting the kids in harm's way...?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 06:01:20 PM
We are tlod again and again, the McCann's felt safe, and that is why they didn't lock the doors at night.
It is a contradiction which in the light of logic can be dispelled, as they locked the apartment during the days.
As to a burglar, no evidence of that, likewise no evident nice anyone else had been in the apartment, unless of course you believe in fairies.
The difference is - during the day they were away from their apartment for hours at a time, in the evening they were regularly going back and forth to check on the kids at the apartment. Stephen, I don't believe in fairies, but like you I believe that leaving a door unlocked is potentially risky, even if you feel it is safe to do so.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 06:37:00 PM
The difference is - during the day they were away from their apartment for hours at a time, in the evening they were regularly going back and forth to check on the kids at the apartment. Stephen, I don't believe in fairies, but like you I believe that leaving a door unlocked is potentially risky, even if you feel it is safe to do so.
To the contrary Alfie, I think leaving the door unlocked was a cretinous thing to do, as it left the three young children totally unprotected.
As to the 'regular' checks, some verified, some not.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Lace on September 30, 2016, 06:42:18 PM
To the contrary Alfie, I think leaving the door unlocked was a cretinous thing to do, as it left the three young children totally unprotected.
As to the 'regular' checks, some verified, some not.
This is your favourite subject isn't it? Over and over you repeat what the McCann's did, why? They know what they did, they know they shouldn't have done it, they explained why they did it, they wish they hadn't done it, they wish they could put the clocks back but they can't. They suffer for it every day they are without Madeleine. Enough.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: ferryman on September 30, 2016, 06:43:12 PM
The difference is - during the day they were away from their apartment for hours at a time, in the evening they were regularly going back and forth to check on the kids at the apartment. Stephen, I don't believe in fairies, but like you I believe that leaving a door unlocked is potentially risky, even if you feel it is safe to do so.
I confess to, personally, a slightly different take on that.
Let me put it like this.
If you were satisfied that your kids had good road awareness and the school was a reasonable distance away, you would be happy to let them walk to school unsupervised (I imagine!).
But would you leave a trail of £20 notes on the streets your children walk along to get to school?
No, of course you wouldn't.
Does that mean that you love money more than you love your kids?
No, of course it doesn't.
What it does mean is that far fewer people in the world steal or threaten kids than money or property (thank God!)
So the McCanns were not prioritising possessions higher than their children (in my estimation)
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: ferryman on September 30, 2016, 06:44:28 PM
I see we are way off-topic (colour of the bedroom curtains) ....
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on September 30, 2016, 06:49:49 PM
To the contrary Alfie, I think leaving the door unlocked was a cretinous thing to do, as it left the three young children totally unprotected.
As to the 'regular' checks, some verified, some not.
Totally unprotected from what though? I thought the view was that burglars don't harm or abduct children? As to your use of the word "cretinous" are you aware that this is an offensive term often used to describe people with mental retardation? Leaving the door unlocked was foolish, had they locked the door what would that have been...?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 30, 2016, 07:58:27 PM
Well do you think the same curtains are still there? The same fabric colour and density, and if they are we can wait till we get a day of similar weather pattern as 03/05/2007 which has definitely been recorded, and then attempt the reconstruction of the whooshing curtains.
As far as orientation it is simply North facing children's bedroom. I would prefer to do the reconstruction in apartment 5A to keep as many factors as possible the same.
To what end?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2016, 08:00:55 PM
They weren't in their back garden, and if you think they were.................
Face facts stephen. It WAS the garden for the apartments and they had one of the apartments, so effectively it WAS THEIR back garden.
My previous back garden was 50+ metres long and it felt absolutely OK to be there with the children asleep in an unlocked house. Little doubt about it, they would feel the same.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 30, 2016, 10:05:13 PM
Face facts stephen. It WAS the garden for the apartments and they had one of the apartments, so effectively it WAS THEIR back garden.
My previous back garden was 50+ metres long and it felt absolutely OK to be there with the children asleep in an unlocked house. Little doubt about it, they would feel the same.
Total and utter BS.
I've read some rubbish in my time, but that takes the biscuit.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 10:15:38 PM
Face facts stephen. It WAS the garden for the apartments and they had one of the apartments, so effectively it WAS THEIR back garden.
My previous back garden was 50+ metres long and it felt absolutely OK to be there with the children asleep in an unlocked house. Little doubt about it, they would feel the same.
It definitely was not their back garden. Their back garden was a few metres long and a few metres wide.
They had the option of eating in, in "their back garden, their patio", and those were but two of the many options they declined.
A communal restaurant reached by going out of one entrance, separated from their garden by a passageway plus another entrance to get to a restaurant, does not come close to anyone's back garden.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: G-Unit on September 30, 2016, 10:19:01 PM
Face facts stephen. It WAS the garden for the apartments and they had one of the apartments, so effectively it WAS THEIR back garden.
My previous back garden was 50+ metres long and it felt absolutely OK to be there with the children asleep in an unlocked house. Little doubt about it, they would feel the same.
Each of the ground floor flats had a garden, with a wall and a gate. That was their garden, not a public space divided from their flat by their garden, a wall, a pathway, another wall, some more space and a swimming pool.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 10:27:31 PM
Each of the ground floor flats had a garden, with a wall and a gate. That was their garden, not a public space divided from their flat by their garden, a wall, a pathway, another wall, some more space and a swimming pool.
Those tiny spaces were their personal place. The tapas area was effectively the back garden to all the flats.
Plenty of Victorian terrace houses had back gardens with a space near the house, a pathway through paralell to the houses, then another part of the garden behind the pathway. It was all their back garden.
The pathway serviced the other houses in the terrace. but nothing stopped people walking thru, if they wished.
My hubby spent the early years of his life in such a house
Ocean club is a very similar set up.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 10:57:03 PM
Totally unprotected from what though? I thought the view was that burglars don't harm or abduct children? As to your use of the word "cretinous" are you aware that this is an offensive term often used to describe people with mental retardation? Leaving the door unlocked was foolish, had they locked the door what would that have been...?
The Front door WAS LOCKED Alfie, single locked. It needed a key to open it.
The only door that we know was unlocked was the patio door ... and that patio area was bathed in light from the street light immediately opposite.
It was also only 50 metres away from the parents and their friends and they could see the whole area.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 30, 2016, 10:58:17 PM
Face facts stephen. It WAS the garden for the apartments and they had one of the apartments, so effectively it WAS THEIR back garden.
My previous back garden was 50+ metres long and it felt absolutely OK to be there with the children asleep in an unlocked house. Little doubt about it, they would feel the same.
So you went and sat and picnicked at the end of the Garden?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2016, 11:07:56 PM
So you went and sat and picnicked at the end of the Garden?
No, we backed onto a golf course and chatted and joked with my hubbies golfing friends. We had our backs to the house, but I knew if anything was amiss the children would have yelled us and we would have heard.
One is tuned into the cries of ones own children
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: G-Unit on September 30, 2016, 11:31:14 PM
Those tiny spaces were their personal place. The tapas area was effectively the back garden to all the flats.
Plenty of Victorian terrace houses had back gardens with a space near the house, a pathway through paralell to the houses, then another part of the garden behind the pathway. It was all their back garden.
The pathway serviced the other houses in the terrace. but nothing stopped people walking thru, if they wished.
My hubby spent the early years of his life in such a house
Ocean club is a very similar set up.
Did he have to climb over two walls with hedging on top to get to the bottom part of his garden too?
Your photo gives a VERY false impression of 50 metres.
It is very simple to check the actual distance using GEarth and the little blue upright ruler on the top band of the GE Image. If you check, you will see that it is 50 metres only
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: G-Unit on September 30, 2016, 11:46:38 PM
Your photo gives a VERY false impression of 50 metres.
It is very simple to check the actual distance using GEarth and the little blue upright ruler on the top band of the GE Image. If you check, you will see that it is 50 metres only
I wasn't speaking of distance but accessibility. If that was the other half of my garden I'd want a gate; it's a bit of a scramble to get in and out.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 01, 2016, 08:47:39 AM
No, we backed onto a golf course and chatted and joked with my hubbies golfing friends. We had our backs to the house, but I knew if anything was amiss the children would have yelled us and we would have heard.
One is tuned into the cries of ones own children
So a quiet back garden then.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on October 01, 2016, 09:15:39 AM
That was then. Forty years ago I might have done what the T9 did. [but not the unlocked door] Ten years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it, particularly with the alternatives that were available.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Alfie on October 01, 2016, 01:32:46 PM
That was then. Forty years ago I might have done what the T9 did. [but not the unlocked door] Ten years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it, particularly with the alternatives that were available.
Forty years ago kids were being abducted and abused, houses were being burgled, so what's changed?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: ferryman on October 01, 2016, 01:47:52 PM
I saw the figures jumping around but they weren't going down.
Figures for burglary have gone down substantially over the last 30 years. There is no evidence that in the same period stranger abduction of children has increased.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2016, 10:45:26 PM
I wasn't speaking of distance but accessibility. If that was the other half of my garden I'd want a gate; it's a bit of a scramble to get in and out.
In my hubbies garden there were two gates, one on either side of the pathway which others walked along. This was a quite common set up in Victorian times.
His garden was quite small, of course, but there are gardens on steep slopes that are rather like the path that the Mccanns had to take. Because these are too steep to walk straight up, the path meanders from side to side, like the Zig zag paths on the cliffs at Bournemouth. People having these gardens are in a somewhat similar position to how The Mccanns were. They could be 50 metres Crow flies, but very much more walking distance.
We have friends with a cliff house in Carbis Bay, their garden is like that.. We were also invited to a friends house (on IIRC Mount Royal in Montreal). The Canadian house whilst looking quite big at the front, was actually huge becos to the rear, it kept going down another floor as the mountain dropped. Behind both was an extremely steep garden in terraces, with a zigzag path up.
Thousands of people have gardens like these where one cant walk as the crow flies back to the homestead.
I repeat Gerry and Kate were in what amounted to being their back garden. They were approx 50 metres away crow flies and less than 80 metres walking / running distance.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 09:46:04 PM
When I was young Mum and Dad milked cows by hand and probably left us at the house 50 meters away to fend for ourselves. Too young to remember but the cowshed with the cows and the bulls was definitely more dangerous than the house.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 09:52:57 PM
When I was young Mum and Dad milked cows by hand and probably left us at the house 50 meters away to fend for ourselves. Too young to remember but the cowshed with the cows and the bulls was definitely more dangerous than the house.
how old were you?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 02, 2016, 10:01:41 PM
They bought the farm when I was 2 (1955) so it was after that so I would have been 3-4 years old. I don't have many memories of my really early childhood. Maybe I had a bump on my head! There was story as baby I was nearly run over by the tractor as they were ploughing the paddocks. They had put me down in amongst the rushes and ended up forgetting where I had been placed.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on October 02, 2016, 10:57:37 PM
They bought the farm when I was 2 (1955) so it was after that so I would have been 3-4 years old. I don't have many memories of my really early childhood. Maybe I had a bump on my head! There was story as baby I was nearly run over by the tractor as they were ploughing the paddocks. They had put me down in amongst the rushes and ended up forgetting where I had been placed.
at keast you werent left with a balcony to potentially topple over, count yourself lucky
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 03, 2016, 04:27:55 AM
at keast you werent left with a balcony to potentially topple over, count yourself lucky
I feel I have used up most of my nine lives. So yes I have been lucky so far.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Brietta on October 03, 2016, 07:28:52 AM
If the discussion on what Matt saw has petered out would it be possible for members to take other topics to a related thread. Please stay on topic. Thank you
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 04, 2016, 01:13:52 AM
The bifold doors push outward from the handles so even if they were partially open none of it would bulge the curtains of the main bedroom. So this bifold door could have been partially open without showing signs visible to Matt.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: mercury on October 04, 2016, 01:35:02 AM
What bifold doors
Lol
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 04, 2016, 01:49:45 AM
these bifold windows/doors. It looks like they are full length down to the floor.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on October 04, 2016, 10:01:58 PM
Bi-fold is a fairly common expression for a type of door in the Uk.
Maybe I should have amended my words there, cos i do know what a traditional bi-fold door is, but thanks Slarti. More commonly used on wardrobes or shower cubicles.
I can only see one place where the doors open or possibly fold ... and as far as I can see it seems to be in the middle of the door space. I think that there are just two doors ... and in all probability they are french doors.
I have tried to find a photo from the outside which shows them, but to no avail.
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 06, 2016, 01:36:54 AM
Maybe I should have amended my words there, cos i do know what a traditional bi-fold door is, but thanks Slarti. More commonly used on wardrobes or shower cubicles.
I can only see one place where the doors open or possibly fold ... and as far as I can see it seems to be in the middle of the door space. I think that there are just two doors ... and in all probability they are french doors.
I have tried to find a photo from the outside which shows them, but to no avail.
The question remains were these doors locked? Were the shutters down?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: sadie on October 06, 2016, 03:05:02 AM
The question remains were these doors locked? Were the shutters down?
Yep, I agree.
I cant understand why, as far as I am aware, the PJ weren't interested in those doors. It was possible to access them in almost total darkness, cos the steps up were in shadow and IIRC there was a shrub in front of part of the doors (if that is what they are). I think this area was also in shadow, but my thoughts on this need checking.
When I mentioned these bedroom doors before, few were interested on the forum. Good to have a lateral thinker on board. Cheers Rob
Why weren't the PJ interested in these doors?
Title: Re: Was the colour of the bedroom curtains as seen by Matt a clue?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 08, 2016, 09:05:58 PM
Security of the windows was an issue earlier this year. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7173.msg331418#msg331418
Quote
..... That isn't the point. Security wrt keys was weak.
As is so happens, security wrt to closed but unlocked windows was not too hot either. Combine knowing the shutter could be opened from outside with knowing the window was unlocked, and you have the possibility of a burglary and more.
I presume OG was talking to John Hill about something, ....