UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: tbl on October 06, 2016, 11:38:06 AM
-
Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.
He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.
He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)
But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.
So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom? Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?
17
-
There are many substances available to farmers which would render a person unconscious in seconds yet remain untraceable thereafter. This substance could also have been used to render the twins helpless.
-
Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.
He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.
He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)
But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.
So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom? Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?
The bloodstains on her dress and arms show she was sitting up when the shots were inflicted. She then as a result fell onto her back hence the blood trails change direction. This precludes her being unconscious from drugs while the shots were fired. She was sitting up as a result of conscious movement on her part.
Sheila was right handed and her right hand was found by the trigger. Her index finger on her left hand resembles it to have been in pronated grip around the barrel of the gun.
If we are to assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty. The only plausible scenario IMO is Jeremy giving her the weapon and telling her to shoot herself and she is compliant in doing so.
Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. COA 2002
(http://s14.postimg.org/cj4pjwi29/vanezis0.jpg)
(http://s14.postimg.org/ls6vu0qy9/vanezis1.jpg)
(http://s14.postimg.org/55pbkxy0h/vanezis2.jpg)
-
There are many substances available to farmers which would render a person unconscious in seconds yet remain untraceable thereafter. This substance could also have been used to render the twins helpless.
Such as?
-
Such as?
Liquid weedkiller, ammonia or paint thinners for starters.
-
Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.
He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.
He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)
But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.
So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom? Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?
There is no reason Sheila would wake. Thread already created.
The twins didn't wake, although there is a possibilty they were both shot first, with one bullet each, prior to Bamber entering the main bedroom.
Once Bamber had silently killed June and the twins, and then killed Neville, not silently, but downstairs, he had several options with an asleep Sheila.
-
He could have put some of Julie's Valium into Sheila's food or drink the evening before. It would have rendered her very dozy and compliant. From the photo of her body, she looked calm, almost peaceful.
He was very evasive and cagey about Julie's meds in his police interviews.
Admittedly, it would not have been easy to administer without anyone seeing, but still possible.
-
Adam, where is the other thread you are referring to?
Why do you think Sheila wouldn't wake up? I don't know if she was a heavy sleeper or not, but I would have thought the noise from the gun, noise from Neville and June, etc. could have done so.
More importantly, if the murders were premeditated, Jeremy would have to assume that there was a risk she might wake up and plan accordingly.
-
He could have put some of Julie's Valium into Sheila's food or drink the evening before. It would have rendered her very dozy and compliant. From the photo of her body, she looked calm, almost peaceful.
He was very evasive and cagey about Julie's meds in his police interviews.
Admittedly, it would not have been easy to administer without anyone seeing, but still possible.
The ease by which he was able to murder Sheila and the twins has always bothered me. David Boutflour in his last TV interview referred to her not having a hair out of place, not exactly the sort of thing which happens when someone goes berserk and has an actual fight with a much taller, stronger man in the kitchen. Even both twins were found in a peaceful pose, one sucking this thumb. Surely one of them would have roused after hearing shots?
The problem about ingesting sedatives is that they show up in blood and urine samples. An appropriately soaked rag over the mouth however would be sufficient to knock anyone out just long enough to carry out the murders.
The reality wrt Sheila however is that once she shot herself initially, her fingers, hands and throat/face would have been smeared in blood while she reacted to the shock and searing burn/pain caused by that first bullet. Additionally, there would have been lots more blood on the rifle as she struggled to fire it again. None of that was evident so Sheila had to be unconscious from the outset.
-
There is absolutely no way she was in a fight with Nevill, nor did she ever go on a mad rampage. Apart from the blood, her body was immaculate and her face serene.
What substance could JB have put on a rag that would render the victims comatose, without showing up in tests? Perhaps there are compounds that are easily available to the farming community, I only know of chloroform, but would have no idea how to obtain it!
-
There is absolutely no way she was in a fight with Nevill, nor did she ever go on a mad rampage. Apart from the blood, her body was immaculate and her face serene.
What substance could JB have put on a rag that would render the victims comatose, without showing up in tests? Perhaps there are compounds that are easily available to the farming community, I only know of chloroform, but would have no idea how to obtain it!
There are numerous substances ranging from liquid pesticides to paint thinners and ammonia which were readily available back in 1985. In fact, many substances which are restricted today were freely available back then.
-
There are numerous substances ranging from liquid pesticides to paint thinners and ammonia which were readily available back in 1985. In fact, many substances which are restricted today were freely available back then.
Wouldn't there be an obvious lingering smell on her face with all those, which either an observant cop or the pathologist might notice?
-
Wouldn't there be an obvious lingering smell on her face with all those, which either an observant cop or the pathologist might notice?
The very small amount needed would evaporate quickly leaving no trace.
-
You can get odourless paint thinners today, but don't know if they were available back then.
I did wonder about the lingering smell of chemicals, however not sure about the keystone cops being observant in noticing it !
Maybe thats partly why he didn't encourage the cops to go straight in.
-
The very small amount needed would evaporate quickly leaving no trace.
Would JB have known that though. He doesn't strike me as being the brightest tool in the box.
-
Would JB have known that though. He doesn't strike me as being the brightest tool in the box.
... and he threw a spanner in the works by ditching Julie.
-
... and he threw a spanner in the works by ditching Julie.
One of his many big mistakes IMHO!
-
... and he threw a spanner in the works by ditching Julie.
I notice that video you posted covered that aspect rather well when Jeremy turned round to Julie and told her that she was every bit as guilty as he was. That was what Jeremy was counting on to keep Julie quiet but his cunning plan backfired the moment he showed an interest in Brett.
-
Assume for the purposes of this thread that Jeremy is guilty.
He aims to kill the 3 adults - Neville and June in the same bedroom, and Sheila in another bedroom.
He starts with Neville and June (he doesn't finish them off in one go, but that is by the by)
But there is a high chance that while he is in Neville and June's bedroom Sheila will hear what is going on and go downstairs, call the police, run to a neighbour, leave a note, or else do something. He can't control this while he is in the main bedroom. He must have planned something to control her in advance.
So how did he control Sheila - Was she drugged? Could he have locked her bedroom door from the landing before going into the main bedroom? Was there an accomplice who stayed with her?
17
First of all, Sheila could have been asleep until he woke her up. That would means he had no need to deal with her while killing others.
Second Sheila could have woken up without recognizing what was transpiring or anything being wrong which again precludes and need to deal with her until he goes to get her.
It's rather obvious that she didn't go into the Master Bedroom as he was shooting his parents nor did she go downstairs to the kitchen along with them after they fled the bedroom to the kitchen.
If she were awake and saw the attack she would have ran to her boys while the men were in the kitchen. Since she didn't that suggests she was in her room until Jeremy got her or until very shortly before he returned upstairs.
When he did finally get her not only did he have a gun to use to order her around, he could have threatened the boys unless she did as he ordered. Either one would get her to comply.
She was on medication which acted as a tranquilizer but Jeremy didn't give it to her she took it for her mental condition. That could have kept her form waking up but people on no medication have not woken up during overnight attacks even in bedrooms with adjacent walls to where a gun was fired. (Her bedroom did not share a wall with the masterbedroom).
-
That may be correct Scipio, but he would not have known that in advance. If Sheila woke when he entered the house or when he started shooting in Neville and June's bedroom he could have lost control of the situation. If the murders were premeditated he must have planned for this in advance. Sheila's immaculate condition implies that she was either asleep throughout or she was drugged, but surely the latter would have shown up in a post-mortem?
-
Sheila wasn't a strong personality by any means. I think Jeremy had no problem making Sheila compliant ... a simple threat to harm her boys would have made her sit down and do as she was told. I hope she didn't know Jeremy had executed her beloved twins before she died.
-
That may be correct Scipio, but he would not have known that in advance. If Sheila woke when he entered the house or when he started shooting in Neville and June's bedroom he could have lost control of the situation. If the murders were premeditated he must have planned for this in advance. Sheila's immaculate condition implies that she was either asleep throughout or she was drugged, but surely the latter would have shown up in a post-mortem?
He would not have known what in advance? He knew she would be sleeping he picked the hour on purpose because they would all be asleep. He expected to kill his parents without anyone waking up and then moving on to the other victims. Since the boys were also killed in their sleep his plan worked, they didn't wake up. There is nothing that suggests Sheila woke up either. Obviously killing her in her bed would not fit his desire to make it appear she killed everyone and then herself so he could not shoot her in bed like the others.
What he didn't anticipate was Nevill and June not being killed instantly. That did play a big role in him getting caught. The struggle in the kitchen is one of several reasons Sheila was "too clean". The killer surely was hit with blood spatter while beating Nevill. It also set the stage for Jeremy's narrative.
If Nevill died in bed Jeremy would have put the phone back in the bedroom. Since he died in the kitchen he left it there and ran with the narrative she shot Nevill in the kitchen then went upstairs to kill the others. The evidence proves this narrative to be false though. The killer attached the parents while they were in bed and then either the killer ran to the kitchen to reload with Nevill in pursuit or Nevill ran to the kitchen to arm himself with the killer in pursuit. This totally blows apart the narrative that Sheila was threatening them and he decided to call Jeremy. He decided to call Jeremy then went back to bed as if nothing were wrong so they could then be attacked in bed?
Jeremy supporters hide their eyes to anything and everything but objective people recognize this precludes the narrative Jeremy presented.
Some do recognize the problem and suggest Nevill got away from Sheila and went down stairs to use the phone leaving June and the boys upstairs alone with Sheila. Aside from it being ridiculous he would leave an armed sheila alone with his wife, it makes no sense to go call Jeremy. Time would be of the essence if he did leave June alone it would be to go get a weapon to challenge Sheila with. Making the call in Sheila's presence would make no sense either and her allowing it makes no sense.
Then you have the issue of the phone off the hook which was left that way to try to comport with Jeremy's story that Sheila attacked him while Nevill was on the phone with Jeremy. He did such in an attempt to explain Nevill's presence in the kitchen and the fight that took place there.
This causes Jeremy supporters who actually face the evidence to posit as follows:
1) Nevill and Sheila were in the kitchen arguing
2) Sheila left the room and Nevill called for help deciding she would be too much for him to disarm alone
3) Sheila returned to find him on the phone and forced him to drop the phone
4) Sheila marched (or chased) him up the stairs to the bedroom
5) Sheila then shot him 4 times and June 6-7
6) Nevill fled to the kitchen with Sheila in pursuit
7) Sheila beat Nevill then reloaded and shot him
Sometimes they change it a little like suggesting she locked herself in the bathroom and then Nevill used that opportunity to call Jeremy. Why would he need to call Jeremy for help if she locked herself in the bathroom? Nothing they posit makes any sense as to why Nevill would call Jeremy.
Those who do such suggest that she came out of the bathroom and killed June and that Nevill heard the shots so dropped the phone and ran to investigate and was shot while entering the room.
The location of the casings, bullet that grazed Nevill and trajectory of the shots doesn't support such narrative though. Nevill was shot while sitting on or lying in his side of the bed. He wasn't shot while in the doorway.
There is no real way to reconcile the event starting with the parents being attacked in bed and Nevill's alleged call for help from the kitchen.
I don't think any call to Jeremy for help would have been plausible. Nevill calls for help from the bedroom and Sheila walks in while he was on the phone then shoots him and subsequently shoots June in bed. While better than the nonsense of calling for the kitchen then being shot in bed it still has many problems.
1) Why would June stay in bed if they were scared sheila was going to shoot them? The logical thing to do would be to get the boys and clear the house to try to get to safety.
2) If the goal were to try to disarm her then Nevill could have tried it himself or with June. Waiting 15 minutes for Jeremy to arrive to try to disarm her makes little sense.
Jeremy totally ignored such problems in his planning. The police stupidly didn't think of such problems either which begs the question of their own competence.
The call supposedly originating from the kitchen before the attack started though doesn't comport with the evidence and is a major problem.
The other of course is the evidence in the moderator. The same people who make up that the moderator evidence was planted are willing to make pathetic excuses for the call from the kitchen not comporting with the evidence.
-
That may be correct Scipio, but he would not have known that in advance. If Sheila woke when he entered the house or when he started shooting in Neville and June's bedroom he could have lost control of the situation. If the murders were premeditated he must have planned for this in advance. Sheila's immaculate condition implies that she was either asleep throughout or she was drugged, but surely the latter would have shown up in a post-mortem?
You refer to Sheila's "immaculate condition" but if SC was responsible how would you expect her to look after discharging a rifle 25 or 26 times inflicting multiple gsw's on 4 victims, all fairly close range, and in all probability using the rifle to beat a severely injured NB?
-
You refer to Sheila's "immaculate condition" but if SC was responsible how would you expect her to look after discharging a rifle 25 or 26 times inflicting multiple gsw's on 4 victims, all fairly close range, and in all probability using the rifle to beat a severely injured NB?
You are making a strong case for Sheila not being responsible given everything you list would result in her having evidence on her body/clothing.
Where did you get 26 from? There were 25 spent casings and 25 gunshot injuries.
-
You are making a strong case for Sheila not being responsible given everything you list would result in her having evidence on her body/clothing.
Where did you get 26 from? There were 25 spent casings and 25 gunshot injuries.
I don't see it like that. During MF's trial testimony he was asked about gunshot discharge residues (gdr) from the rifle. He talked about various residues: primer, propellant etc emitted from the barrel/silencer, side vents and casing ejection port. The rilfe was found on SC's nightdress/person casing ejection port side down so surely some residues would be found on SC's person whether she was the perp or victim? Also whether JB inflicted SC's gsw's or she self-inflicted then surely some gsr would be present if there was any present to be detected? Same for any gun oil ie if any present the rifle was on SC's person/nightdress. With regard to blood from either the gsw's or the beating NB sustained, the rifle contained so little blood it was not even possible to group so why would we expect to find such on SC's person/nightdress? And if it was not possible to group from the rifle then it may well be that victim's blood was on SC's person/nightdress but it was simply not detectable. John Hayward tested only two areas of SC's nightdress: the large stain around her armpit and one of the finger like stains much lower down. These stains were consistent with her own blood type/group.
Have you read Dr Vanezis trial testimony? During his cross examination he said a graze wound that June sustained across her chest could have been an 8th gsw. This could potentially account for the 4th bullet found in the bedroom: DRH/5. I understand DRH/5 was described as whole?
-
I don't see it like that. During MF's trial testimony he was asked about gunshot discharge residues (gdr) from the rifle. He talked about various residues: primer, propellant etc emitted from the barrel/silencer, side vents and casing ejection port. The rilfe was found on SC's nightdress/person casing ejection port side down so surely some residues would be found on SC's person whether she was the perp or victim? Also whether JB inflicted SC's gsw's or she self-inflicted then surely some gsr would be present if there was any present to be detected? Same for any gun oil ie if any present the rifle was on SC's person/nightdress. With regard to blood from either the gsw's or the beating NB sustained, the rifle contained so little blood it was not even possible to group so why would we expect to find such on SC's person/nightdress? And if it was not possible to group from the rifle then it may well be that victim's blood was on SC's person/nightdress but it was simply not detectable. John Hayward tested only two areas of SC's nightdress: the large stain around her armpit and one of the finger like stains much lower down. These stains were consistent with her own blood type/group.
Have you read Dr Vanezis trial testimony? During his cross examination he said a graze wound that June sustained across her chest could have been an 8th gsw. This could potentially account for the 4th bullet found in the bedroom: DRH/5. I understand DRH/5 was described as whole?
There were only 25 casings, there were only 25 shots fired. The fragments of 24 bullets were recovered no fragments were recovered from one of the bullets that entered Nicholas, Vanezis said it splintered into too many small parts.
Saying it is possible the scratch was from a bullet doesn't mean it was. In the meantime if it were from a bullet then it was from one of the bullets that entered her (a bullet grazing her breast before ending up in her in a different location is quite possible) or one that hit Nevill. The bullet that grazed Nevill is the bullet you are referring to DRH/5.
It's impossible for there to have been 26 shots without 26 casings and no extra bullets were found.
I have explained to you DOZENS of times that the moderator extends the length of the weapon and that as a result it would be impossible for the ejection port/vents to be near Sheila when Jeremy shot her. Your claim that GSR would get from the vents to her dress if Jeremy shot her is false.
ONLY if she fired the gun herself without the moderator attached would the vent/ejection port be adjacent to her gown.
The lack of GSR fully comports with the moderator being used as does the blood inside of it.
This shows the ejection port and opposing vents quite well (the bolt is open thus you can see right through to the other side) look how far away from the muzzle they are:
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ian_m/media/DSC05695_zps2d8nv69v.jpg.html
-
There were only 25 casings, there were only 25 shots fired. The fragments of 24 bullets were recovered no fragments were recovered from one of the bullets that entered Nicholas, Vanezis said it splintered into too many small parts.
Saying it is possible the scratch was from a bullet doesn't mean it was. In the meantime if it were from a bullet then it was from one of the bullets that entered her (a bullet grazing her breast before ending up in her in a different location is quite possible) or one that hit Nevill. The bullet that grazed Nevill is the bullet you are referring to DRH/5.
It's impossible for there to have been 26 shots without 26 casings and no extra bullets were found.
I have explained to you DOZENS of times that the moderator extends the length of the weapon and that as a result it would be impossible for the ejection port/vents to be near Sheila when Jeremy shot her. Your claim that GSR would get from the vents to her dress if Jeremy shot her is false.
ONLY if she fired the gun herself without the moderator attached would the vent/ejection port be adjacent to her gown.
The lack of GSR fully comports with the moderator being used as does the blood inside of it.
This shows the ejection port and opposing vents quite well (the bolt is open thus you can see right through to the other side) look how far away from the muzzle they are:
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ian_m/media/DSC05695_zps2d8nv69v.jpg.html
June may have sustained an 8th gsw which was a graze only. If this is so then there should be 26 casings: June shot x 8, twins shot total x 8, NB x 8, SC x 2 = total 26 casings. All casings reconcile with location of victim and gsw's other than the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen. In all probability a casing from the kitchen was simply lost in the mess of the place. Bearing in mind the casing is approx 1cm in length and 0.5cm diameter.
DRH/5 may well have been the bullet from a graze shot to June.
Fragments of NB's graze gsw were seen radiographically in his chest cavity.
Gunshot reside (gsr) distributes as a plumb as evidenced by the following vid. Whether SC's gsw's were self-inflicted or inflicted by JB then the potential for this to distribute over SC's person/nightdress was very similar and clearly the potential for gsr to attach to the casing ejection port is significant and this was found face down on SC's nightdress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
-
June may have sustained an 8th gsw which was a graze only. If this is so then there should be 26 casings: June shot x 8, twins shot total x 8, NB x 8, SC x 2 = total 26 casings. All casings reconcile with location of victim and gsw's other than the 4 gsw's NB sustained in the kitchen. In all probability a casing from the kitchen was simply lost in the mess of the place. Bearing in mind the casing is approx 1cm in length and 0.5cm diameter.
DRH/5 may well have been the bullet from a graze shot to June.
Fragments of NB's graze gsw were seen radiographically in his chest cavity.
The tiny fragments in the X-ray constituted a very tiny portion of a bullet. It was a tiny bit of a bullet that grazed Nevill. The fragments may have only been in his clothing because Vanezis could not find anything in the body. The remainder of the bullet was DRH/5. A tiny portion hit his side of the chest while the remainder grazed the front of his chest. He probably was moving while it struck him.
Vanezis had no idea whether the v shaped scratch on June's breast was a bullet graze wound or not. It is was from a bullet then it was from one of the other bullets that hit her or hit Nevill. The bullet that exited her forearm could have grazed her chest before entering her bed. he scratch may not have been a bullet wound at all though.
There were only 25 bullets (24 recovered and one in Nicholas un-recovered) and 25 casings.
Gunshot reside (gsr) distributes as a plumb as evidenced by the following vid. Whether SC's gsw's were self-inflicted or inflicted by JB then the potential for this to distribute over SC's person/nightdress was very similar and clearly the potential for gsr to attach to the casing ejection port is significant and this was found face down on SC's nightdress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
You seem to be talking about the plume that comes out of the muzzle of the weapon. With the weapon against a neck there would be no such plume it would go inside the wound and at most a little around it. The further away the weapon is from the victim the less concentrated and thus wider the reach of the gunshot residue until it is too far away to reach the victim.
The plume that comes out of the vents/ejection port go on the shooter:
(https://s24.postimg.org/b4re3bnc5/22lrsemiautosgrcloud.jpg)
This is a weapon with the same action as the murder weapon. You can see that even without a moderator the GSR gets on the shooter. If Sheila were hugging the weapon then most certainly the GSR would have gotten on her gown but not if she simply were shot by someone else holding the moderator to her neck.
-
The tiny fragments in the X-ray constituted a very tiny portion of a bullet. It was a tiny bit of a bullet that grazed Nevill. The fragments may have only been in his clothing because Vanezis could not find anything in the body. The remainder of the bullet was DRH/5. A tiny portion hit his side of the chest while the remainder grazed the front of his chest. He probably was moving while it struck him.
Vanezis had no idea whether the v shaped scratch on June's breast was a bullet graze wound or not. It is was from a bullet then it was from one of the other bullets that hit her or hit Nevill. The bullet that exited her forearm could have grazed her chest before entering her bed. he scratch may not have been a bullet wound at all though.
There were only 25 bullets (24 recovered and one in Nicholas un-recovered) and 25 casings.
You seem to be talking about the plume that comes out of the muzzle of the weapon. With the weapon against a neck there would be no such plume it would go inside the wound and at most a little around it. The further away the weapon is from the victim the less concentrated and thus wider the reach of the gunshot residue until it is too far away to reach the victim.
The plume that comes out of the vents/ejection port go on the shooter:
(https://s24.postimg.org/b4re3bnc5/22lrsemiautosgrcloud.jpg)
This is a weapon with the same action as the murder weapon. You can see that even without a moderator the GSR gets on the shooter. If Sheila were hugging the weapon then most certainly the GSR would have gotten on her gown but not if she simply were shot by someone else holding the moderator to her neck.
No, Dr Vanezis noted in the autopsy report that he observed fragments in NB's chest cavity from the graze wound he sustained to his chest/elbow. See attached. I have just realised that whilst I have mastered the art of cropping I haven't mastered the art of uploading the cropped section within a post as opposed to an attachment!
At this moment in time I do not believe we have sufficient data to establish whether DRH/5 pertains to an 8th graze gsw sustained by June or NB's graze gsw. David1819 said MF noted DRH/5 as "whole". If this is the case it rules out NB. I have asked David1819 for the documentary evidence. NB's pyjama top had a tear around the elbow which might account for the graze wound where the fragments were found within the chest cavity and the remainder within the pyjama top. Afaik no such tears were found on June's nightdress. Is it possible that a bullet could graze the skin over clothing without tearing clothing? I've no idea. Bearing in mind the bullets are about 5mm in length x 5mm at the widest point.
Re the gsw's sustained by the twins. The samples list shows four bullets recovered from DC and 2 from NC. It appears 1 from each is missing?
Re gunshot discharge residue (gdr) I am referring to the residues that exit from the side vents and casing ejection port with emphasis on the latter. The point I am endeavouring to make is that it is often said if SC was the perp then why was nothing found on her nightie by way of blood, gun oil and gdr and I am explaining that whether she was the perp or victim the potential for any debris to be found on her nightdress was similar. The video I uploaded shows a light plume of gdr emitting from the casing ejection port (cep). The cep was found resting on her nightdress and had fired at least 25 shots, possibly 26, with two fired over SC's body and nightdress. Therefore regardless of whether her gsw's were self-inflicted or inflicted by JB it could be argued that some gdr should have been detected on her nightdress. We know gdr dissipates with movement. SC was placed in a body bag at WHF and then transferred to the path lab where an autopsy was carried out. I assume her nightdress was removed by cutting? It was then transferred to the lab at Huntingdon where it was examined. Therefore any gsr would surely be lost? Even if some was found then surely it would not be possible to say whether it was there as a result of her being the perp or a victim of the crime?
-
No, Dr Vanezis noted in the autopsy report that he observed fragments in NB's chest cavity from the graze wound he sustained to his chest/elbow. See attached. I have just realised that whilst I have mastered the art of cropping I haven't mastered the art of uploading the cropped section within a post as opposed to an attachment!
And he later clarified that the tiny fragments he saw might not have been inside Nevill's body. He said they might have been too tiny too locate or might not have been in the body at all since the xrays were taken while the body was clothed.
At this moment in time I do not believe we have sufficient data to establish whether DRH/5 pertains to an 8th graze gsw sustained by June or NB's graze gsw. David1819 said MF noted DRH/5 as "whole". If this is the case it rules out NB. I have asked David1819 for the documentary evidence. NB's pyjama top had a tear around the elbow which might account for the graze wound where the fragments were found within the chest cavity and the remainder within the pyjama top. Afaik no such tears were found on June's nightdress. Is it possible that a bullet could graze the skin over clothing without tearing clothing? I've no idea. Bearing in mind the bullets are about 5mm in length x 5mm at the widest point.
DRH/5 weighed 37 grains out of the original 40 so was missing 13 percent of the bullet. You can't seem to get it through your head that no bullets were whole, it is practically impossible for a non jacketed bullet to remain entirely whole after being fired except in a testing chamber and even then a very small amount will be missing since the barrel rifling scores the bullet. By definition what is recovered are fragments of bullets. The largest fragment is frequently called the bullet though this is imprecise and technically should be called a fragment. There is no harm done so long as people recognize this.
The largest fragment of each bullet was recovered except no fragments from one of the bullets that hit Nicholas. They were so small that they would have been useless. Vanezis only removed one small fragment from any of the victims. That tiny fragment was a second fragment from one of the bullets that hit Nevill's jaw or lip. It was was useless investigation wise because it was too small to mean anything, you can't get the rifling characteristics from a tiny fragment. That is PV/5 it was useless from a ballistics expert perspective in establishing anything so is not mentioned much.
The bullet that grazed Nevill first struck the back of his arm, then hit his side and continued across the front of his chest. The entire bullet didn't come to rest in his side. The side didn't have an entrance wound that would allow a whole bullet to enter it had small damage.
Look where DRH/5 was found it clearly ricocheted before ending up there which is why when questioned on the witness stand Fletcher refused to opine where the shot was fired from:
(https://s9.postimg.org/hblnemzlb/drh5.jpg)
Some have suggested the bullet remained in Nevill's gown and fell out in that location when he was running by. It's not impossible but I think it is more likely it ricocheted there.
The v channel in her breast could not be made by a bullet that grazed her horizontally. If made by a bullet it could only be made by a bullet moving vertically across her chest. That means she had to be lying down. A bullet that grazed her chest while she was lying down would end up in her bed/pillow. Think about her right arm being across her body hand near her left shoulder. Where would the bullet that exited her arm go? It would graze her breast and then go above her shoulder ending up in her pillow. 2 bullets were found in her pillows and one clearly was the one that exited her arm. This doesn't prove it his her chest because it could have cleared her chest and still ended up in the pillow. We don't know if the scratch to her breast was related to the murders or not.
Re the gsw's sustained by the twins. The samples list shows four bullets recovered from DC and 2 from NC. It appears 1 from each is missing?
The largest fragment of one of the bullets that exited Daniel was recovered in the room hence not missing.
Daniel
PV/29
PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
DRH/36
Nicholas
PV/30
PV/31
Vanezis explained that while Nicholas had 3 entrance wounds one of the bullets broke apart into small pieces so there was no sizable fragment to recover. As I mentioned earlier small fragments are not of much use.
Re gunshot discharge residue (gdr) I am referring to the residues that exit from the side vents and casing ejection port with emphasis on the latter. The point I am endeavouring to make is that it is often said if SC was the perp then why was nothing found on her nightie by way of blood, gun oil and gdr and I am explaining that whether she was the perp or victim the potential for any debris to be found on her nightdress was similar. The video I uploaded shows a light plume of gdr emitting from the casing ejection port (cep). The cep was found resting on her nightdress and had fired at least 25 shots, possibly 26, with two fired over SC's body and nightdress. Therefore regardless of whether her gsw's were self-inflicted or inflicted by JB it could be argued that some gdr should have been detected on her nightdress. We know gdr dissipates with movement. SC was placed in a body bag at WHF and then transferred to the path lab where an autopsy was carried out. I assume her nightdress was removed by cutting? It was then transferred to the lab at Huntingdon where it was examined. Therefore any gsr would surely be lost? Even if some was found then surely it would not be possible to say whether it was there as a result of her being the perp or a victim of the crime?
Once again you ignore reality of the GSW.
I posted for you the plume that comes out of the vents/ejection port. You can clearly see that it only gets on the shooter. Thus if Jeremy were the shooter then the GSW would not get on Sheila. It could only get on Sheila if she were shooting herself. The plume goes back to the stock across the face and hands of the shooter not to the forward of the weapon. The vents/ejection port are near the shooter not the victim. You keep ignoring this and making the false claim that the GSW would get on a victim. This is untrue it gets on the shooter hence why if she were the shooter she would have such GSW on her gown and hands but would not if merely a victim.
23 shots to other victims would certainly result in GSR on her body and clothing. 2 shots to herself hugging the weapon would surely get GSW on her clothing and body. 2 shots fired by Jeremy into her would not get GSW on her body because she was too far away from the vents/ejection port.
-
And he later clarified that the tiny fragments he saw might not have been inside Nevill's body. He said they might have been too tiny too locate or might not have been in the body at all since the xrays were taken while the body was clothed.
DRH/5 weighed 37 grains out of the original 40 so was missing 13 percent of the bullet. You can't seem to get it through your head that no bullets were whole, it is practically impossible for a non jacketed bullet to remain entirely whole after being fired except in a testing chamber and even then a very small amount will be missing since the barrel rifling scores the bullet. By definition what is recovered are fragments of bullets. The largest fragment is frequently called the bullet though this is imprecise and technically should be called a fragment. There is no harm done so long as people recognize this.
The largest fragment of each bullet was recovered except no fragments from one of the bullets that hit Nicholas. They were so small that they would have been useless. Vanezis only removed one small fragment from any of the victims. That tiny fragment was a second fragment from one of the bullets that hit Nevill's jaw or lip. It was was useless investigation wise because it was too small to mean anything, you can't get the rifling characteristics from a tiny fragment. That is PV/5 it was useless from a ballistics expert perspective in establishing anything so is not mentioned much.
The bullet that grazed Nevill first struck the back of his arm, then hit his side and continued across the front of his chest. The entire bullet didn't come to rest in his side. The side didn't have an entrance wound that would allow a whole bullet to enter it had small damage.
Look where DRH/5 was found it clearly ricocheted before ending up there which is why when questioned on the witness stand Fletcher refused to opine where the shot was fired from:
(https://s9.postimg.org/hblnemzlb/drh5.jpg)
Some have suggested the bullet remained in Nevill's gown and fell out in that location when he was running by. It's not impossible but I think it is more likely it ricocheted there.
The v channel in her breast could not be made by a bullet that grazed her horizontally. If made by a bullet it could only be made by a bullet moving vertically across her chest. That means she had to be lying down. A bullet that grazed her chest while she was lying down would end up in her bed/pillow. Think about her right arm being across her body hand near her left shoulder. Where would the bullet that exited her arm go? It would graze her breast and then go above her shoulder ending up in her pillow. 2 bullets were found in her pillows and one clearly was the one that exited her arm. This doesn't prove it his her chest because it could have cleared her chest and still ended up in the pillow. We don't know if the scratch to her breast was related to the murders or not.
The largest fragment of one of the bullets that exited Daniel was recovered in the room hence not missing.
Daniel
PV/29
PV/34
PV/35
PV/36
DRH/36
Nicholas
PV/30
PV/31
Vanezis explained that while Nicholas had 3 entrance wounds one of the bullets broke apart into small pieces so there was no sizable fragment to recover. As I mentioned earlier small fragments are not of much use.
Once again you ignore reality of the GSW.
I posted for you the plume that comes out of the vents/ejection port. You can clearly see that it only gets on the shooter. Thus if Jeremy were the shooter then the GSW would not get on Sheila. It could only get on Sheila if she were shooting herself. The plume goes back to the stock across the face and hands of the shooter not to the forward of the weapon. The vents/ejection port are near the shooter not the victim. You keep ignoring this and making the false claim that the GSW would get on a victim. This is untrue it gets on the shooter hence why if she were the shooter she would have such GSW on her gown and hands but would not if merely a victim.
23 shots to other victims would certainly result in GSR on her body and clothing. 2 shots to herself hugging the weapon would surely get GSW on her clothing and body. 2 shots fired by Jeremy into her would not get GSW on her body because she was too far away from the vents/ejection port.
Scipio it is good to see you posting on the board again but may I remind you please that we attempt to keep things civil here. Telling me I can't seem to get things through to my head and that I'm ignoring reality doesn't bode well with the aims and objectives of the board. Thank you in anticipation.
Much of the expert testimony is ambigious which is unhelpful to say the least! Under cross examination and by a process of elimination Malcolm Fletcher agreed with the following:
- DRH/5 could not have pertained to the graze wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest as it entered NB's chest at a shallow angle - attached trial testimony
- DRH/5 pertained to a graze wound June sustained to her chest - attached trial testimony
- A total of 26 bullets were fired - attached trial testimony
You are arguing against the ballistics evidence/expert at trial?
I disagree re GSR. The rifle was found on SC's person/nightdress with the casing ejection port face down resting on her nightdress. In all probability 26 shots had been fired from the rifle. MF said GSR emits from the casing ejection port and this can be evidenced in the slow motion part of the vid. Therefore imo it stands to reason that at least a small amount from this area of the rifle would transfer to SC's nightdress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Scipio it is good to see you posting on the board again but may I remind you please that we attempt to keep things civil here. Telling me I can't seem to get things through to my head and that I'm ignoring reality doesn't bode well with the aims and objectives of the board. Thank you in anticipation.
Much of the expert testimony is ambigious which is unhelpful to say the least! Under cross examination and by a process of elimination Malcolm Fletcher agreed with the following:
- DRH/5 could not have pertained to the graze wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest as it entered NB's chest at a shallow angle - attached trial testimony
- DRH/5 pertained to a graze wound June sustained to her chest - attached trial testimony
- A total of 26 bullets were fired - attached trial testimony
You are arguing against the ballistics evidence/expert at trial?
Fletcher didn't say there were 26 shots he said MAYBE there were 26 shots and 1 casing was never recovered. He didn't say June definitely suffered from a graze wound just that it is possible. He ignored that the bullet that grazed Nevill was not in his body and thus had to be at the scene. He ignored that DRH/5 was not in a location where it could get from grazing June's breast as she was lying in bed. He simply made the simplistic claim that since it was on June's side of the room it somehow pertained to June. That kind of simplistic thinking is worthless he would be torn apart if he tried that on a witness stand today. Maybe he erroneously thought the bullet was near her dresser as opposed to the dressing table in the opposite corner. Maybe he just wasn't thinking much. It makes no difference the possibility he suggested is not realistic.
If the v shaped scratch on June's breast was in fact from a bullet then it was a bullet that grazed her while she was lying down and wound have ended up in the bed. So either it was not a bullet graze or was from one of the bullets that ended up in her pillow. A bullet that grazed her chest while she was lying in bed could not bounce off her pillow and end up on the opposite side of the room. A bullet could not graze her breast laterally and cause the v shaped scratch. A graze wound would have damaged her gown as well and I see no evidence of damage in the breast area of her gown.
There is no way that the entire bullet entered Nevill's side in the small scratch marks. It grazed his side and then grazed the front of his chest. At most tiny slivers entered him. That leaves the bulk of bullet that grazed him unaccounted for and DRH/5 clearly pertains to it because it can't correspond to any other wounds of anyone.
I disagree re GSR. The rifle was found on SC's person/nightdress with the casing ejection port face down resting on her nightdress. In all probability 26 shots had been fired from the rifle. MF said GSR emits from the casing ejection port and this can be evidenced in the slow motion part of the vid. Therefore imo it stands to reason that at least a small amount from this area of the rifle would transfer to SC's nightdress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Your position is not supported by any evidence or science. I don't know why you keep showing the video it doesn't help you at all. The video shows that the ejection port and vents are near the shooter and would not be near Sheila if shot by Jeremy- particularly with the added length of the moderator. The only way it would be near the victim is if the victim shoots himself/herself.
Your alternative argument is that eventually putting the gun on her would deposit GSR on her gown but that is not necessarily true. No GSR needs to deposit on her gown simply by placing it on her. It need not deposit any and most certainly would not deposit anywhere near the amount that would have to be there if she shot the others and then herself. She would have had a considerable amount on her gown and body. There is no way she shot anyone.
Your ultimate argument is that she had to have GSR on her clothing and since they say she didn't the tests must have been worthless and wrong. This argument fails miserably.
You are not starting from a neutral position and looking at the evidence objectively. You operate from the starting point that Jeremy is innocent and Sheila committed the murders and then stretch to try to support this position. None of the stretching works though.
-
Scipio, MF recorded the bullet recovered from the dressing table (DRH/5) as "whole" which is exhibit number 49 on the attached list. Dr Vanezis said he observed fragments in NB's chest cavity from the graze wound? Can you explain please how DRH/5 pertains to the graze wound sustained by NB?
-
Scipio, MF recorded the bullet recovered from the dressing table (DRH/5) as "whole" which is exhibit number 49 on the attached list. Dr Vanezis said he observed fragments in NB's chest cavity from the graze wound? Can you explain please how DRH/5 pertains to the graze wound sustained by NB?
Vanezis said he observed some tiny fragments that were were either in the clothing or simply too tiny to find in person.
I already told you the weight of the bullet. None of the bullets he recovered were whole. He didn't write whole to mean the entire bullet was recovered.
The unfired bullet weighed 40 grains. The fragment weighed 37 grains, 3 were missing. 3 grains are 13 percent of the weight. Some tiny fragments from DRH/5 broke off and either entered his side or remained in his clothing while the remainder of the bullet grazed his chest and ended up in the corner of the room. The only way for the bullet to get there naturally would be if the killer were by Nevill's bedside table and Nevill near the chair with his left side of his body facing the shooter. The casing would end up near the window. Since it makes zero sense for the actors to be in such location and no casing was near the window it is obvious the bullet ricocheted there.
(https://s13.postimg.org/7vf4tmcaf/drh5traj.jpg)
I showed how the victim would have to be walking in order for the shot to not be a ricochet and to land there after grazing him. What I drew is supposed to be the shoulders. I drew L and r to show the left side and the angle Nevill would be positioned.
S by Nevill's side table is the shooter and the trajectory of the bullet is represented by the red line. The orange line represents the casing.
Nevill was shot 2 times in the face and one in the arm while sitting up in bed. Why would the shooter walk all the way to the side table and let him by to go to the other side of the room towards the door? Worse still why would he not have his back to the killer and instead be positioned in the odd angle shown? Nor was there a casing in the position where it would be. So it is clear the bullet bounced there
If I were forced to venture a guess it would be Nevill sitting on the bed facing the wall to get out, rising out of bed or even standing facing the wall still before he could turn to start to walk towards the foot of the bed thus his left side to the shooter. The bullet grazes him, hits the wall and bounces off the wall to that location. I'm skeptical of the theory it was stuck in his nightshirt and fell out at he was running out of the room- some have posited such. 22LR rounds are notorious for ricocheting after hitting something hard so the ricochet would not be surprising.
I know you will say Sheila came in through the closet, woke Nevill up and he was running away when shot but that still would not account for the lack of the casing, the odd angle Nevill would have been moving as opposed to having his back to the shooter but most importantly would fail to deal with the evidence proving the shooter first was at the foot of the bed hitting him 3 times as he sat up.
Not only do the casings support such the trajectory of the bullets do. The shooter (especially if short Sheila) most certainly could not have shot Nevill while he was standing in the face or the shoulder at the downward trajectories the gun would have to be pointed up to hit those locations. If he were lying down the trajectories would be up unless the killer was behind the headboard and since it was against the wall...
Nevill would not go back into bed after being shot at so it is clear he was shot before he got out of bed. The shooter had to be by the foot of the bed like when shooting June while she was in bed. Nevill either had to be getting out of bed when grazed and the bullet ricocheting or he and he shooter walked past one another and he was shot while the killer was near his side table and someone moved the casing or it also ricocheted towards the door. I find it hard to believe the killer would let him by and go to his side table.
As you should have noticed this doesn't inform in and of itself who did the shooting. Sheila could have walked in and shot Nevill 4 times and June 6 in such manner. It's damning because it undermines Jeremy's claim that Nevill made a distress call to him since Nevill would not make a distress call then go back to bed.
The prosecution thought the location of the casings in the bedroom was sufficient to convince the jury Nevill was shot there before things proceeded to the kitchen. They didn't seek out an expert in reconstruction because they didn't feel they needed one.
Another issue is you are talking about people making the prosecution decisions who don't own guns and thus don't know about them. They didn't think to ask Fletcher or others about the height issue and trajectories. I shoot so I do.
Here is a photo of June and Nevill and the height June could fire a gun straight into him while he is standing upright. If she were to shoot an area above the line then the trajectory would be up and below would be down.
June was only 2 inches shorter than Sheila so there would not be significant variation but this is just to illustrate the point.
(https://s9.postimg.org/bkpjoapin/junenevill.jpg)
If we were talking about shots at a distance then things change because a bullet arcs at a distance so still can have a downward trajectory when hitting a target fro a distance even with the gun aimed up. With short distances though such doesn't come into play I just mention it because there are always variables that come into play. you can't just take a rule and apply it across the board you must take into account the variables.
Even Jeremy would not be able to shoot him in the face downwards if both were standing on ground of the same height and it is highly unlikely he would be able to shoot Nevill's shoulder downward either. He most certainly could not shoot it downward at the fairly steep angle of the shot.
-
Vanezis said he observed some tiny fragments that were were either in the clothing or simply too tiny to find in person.
I already told you the weight of the bullet. None of the bullets he recovered were whole. He didn't write whole to mean the entire bullet was recovered.
The unfired bullet weighed 40 grains. The fragment weighed 37 grains, 3 were missing. 3 grains are 13 percent of the weight. Some tiny fragments from DRH/5 broke off and either entered his side or remained in his clothing while the remainder of the bullet grazed his chest and ended up in the corner of the room. The only way for the bullet to get there naturally would be if the killer were by Nevill's bedside table and Nevill near the chair with his left side of his body facing the shooter. The casing would end up near the window. Since it makes zero sense for the actors to be in such location and no casing was near the window it is obvious the bullet ricocheted there.
(https://s13.postimg.org/7vf4tmcaf/drh5traj.jpg)
I showed how the victim would have to be walking in order for the shot to not be a ricochet and to land there after grazing him. What I drew is supposed to be the shoulders. I drew L and r to show the left side and the angle Nevill would be positioned.
S by Nevill's side table is the shooter and the trajectory of the bullet is represented by the red line. The orange line represents the casing.
Nevill was shot 2 times in the face and one in the arm while sitting up in bed. Why would the shooter walk all the way to the side table and let him by to go to the other side of the room towards the door? Worse still why would he not have his back to the killer and instead be positioned in the odd angle shown? Nor was there a casing in the position where it would be. So it is clear the bullet bounced there
If I were forced to venture a guess it would be Nevill sitting on the bed facing the wall to get out, rising out of bed or even standing facing the wall still before he could turn to start to walk towards the foot of the bed thus his left side to the shooter. The bullet grazes him, hits the wall and bounces off the wall to that location. I'm skeptical of the theory it was stuck in his nightshirt and fell out at he was running out of the room- some have posited such. 22LR rounds are notorious for ricocheting after hitting something hard so the ricochet would not be surprising.
I know you will say Sheila came in through the closet, woke Nevill up and he was running away when shot but that still would not account for the lack of the casing, the odd angle Nevill would have been moving as opposed to having his back to the shooter but most importantly would fail to deal with the evidence proving the shooter first was at the foot of the bed hitting him 3 times as he sat up.
Not only do the casings support such the trajectory of the bullets do. The shooter (especially if short Sheila) most certainly could not have shot Nevill while he was standing in the face or the shoulder at the downward trajectories the gun would have to be pointed up to hit those locations. If he were lying down the trajectories would be up unless the killer was behind the headboard and since it was against the wall...
Nevill would not go back into bed after being shot at so it is clear he was shot before he got out of bed. The shooter had to be by the foot of the bed like when shooting June while she was in bed. Nevill either had to be getting out of bed when grazed and the bullet ricocheting or he and he shooter walked past one another and he was shot while the killer was near his side table and someone moved the casing or it also ricocheted towards the door. I find it hard to believe the killer would let him by and go to his side table.
As you should have noticed this doesn't inform in and of itself who did the shooting. Sheila could have walked in and shot Nevill 4 times and June 6 in such manner. It's damning because it undermines Jeremy's claim that Nevill made a distress call to him since Nevill would not make a distress call then go back to bed.
The prosecution thought the location of the casings in the bedroom was sufficient to convince the jury Nevill was shot there before things proceeded to the kitchen. They didn't seek out an expert in reconstruction because they didn't feel they needed one.
Another issue is you are talking about people making the prosecution decisions who don't own guns and thus don't know about them. They didn't think to ask Fletcher or others about the height issue and trajectories. I shoot so I do.
Here is a photo of June and Nevill and the height June could fire a gun straight into him while he is standing upright. If she were to shoot an area above the line then the trajectory would be up and below would be down.
June was only 2 inches shorter than Sheila so there would not be significant variation but this is just to illustrate the point.
(https://s9.postimg.org/bkpjoapin/junenevill.jpg)
If we were talking about shots at a distance then things change because a bullet arcs at a distance so still can have a downward trajectory when hitting a target fro a distance even with the gun aimed up. With short distances though such doesn't come into play I just mention it because there are always variables that come into play. you can't just take a rule and apply it across the board you must take into account the variables.
Even Jeremy would not be able to shoot him in the face downwards if both were standing on ground of the same height and it is highly unlikely he would be able to shoot Nevill's shoulder downward either. He most certainly could not shoot it downward at the fairly steep angle of the shot.
All the evidence shows bullet DRH/5 aka item 49 found in the main bedroom was "whole". The graze wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest left fragments in his chest cavity observed radiographically.
MF examined the bullets and fragments microscopically and described them as follows:
- Whole
- Nearly whole
- Half a bullet
- Fragment
- Small Fragment
If as you say the weight of DRH/5 was less than whole with some 13% missing then why was it listed as 'whole' and not 'nearly whole'?
I've seen posts about weights but I haven't seen any documentary evidence?
It does not seem plausible to me that June and NB were in bed and JB crept in and opened fire. June sustained most of her gsw's from a distance of 2 or 3 feet away all to her front ie none to her rear. Yet with NB all his gsw's were sustained when the rifle was inches away from his skin and crucially 2 of the 4 gsw's he sustained upstairs were to his rear. The 2 to his face went straight on and back with a trajectory of approx 20 degrees below the horizontal. If the shooter was so close as to be able to inflict such wounds at close range whilst NB was seated in bed how did NB manage to get out of bed and turn to enable the shooter to inflict gsw's to his rear?
No experts have ever attempted a soc reconstruction. It's all along the lines of JB crept into his parents bedroom and shot them. Yet when you break down all the indvidual parts it simply doesn't add up and I have no doubt that experts creating a reconstruction based on exacts measurements of WHF, soc photos, autopsy report and photos and other data such as casings and bloodstaining or lack of will come to the same conclusion.
-
All the evidence shows bullet DRH/5 aka item 49 found in the main bedroom was "whole". The graze wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest left fragments in his chest cavity observed radiographically.
MF examined the bullets and fragments microscopically and described them as follows:
- Whole
- Nearly whole
- Half a bullet
- Fragment
- Small Fragment
If as you say the weight of DRH/5 was less than whole with some 13% missing then why was it listed as 'whole' and not 'nearly whole'?
I've seen posts about weights but I haven't seen any documentary evidence?
The report you keep quoting from is not the examination records. The first thing the lab did was examine the bullets and write up an examination record for each bullet and casing. The examination record details the exact weight and rifling characteristics. The lab examination record details the weight as 37 grains and 8 lands and grooves.
His report described the general appearance of bullets he doesn't claim any of them are whole in the sense of the entire bullet is present. BY DEFINITION any slugs recovered are fragments not entire bullets because when a bullet is fired part of the bullet breaks off just from being scored by the rifling. More will break off upon impacts. The only way to get a complete bullet through firing is in lab test firings and even then some can be lost depending upon the type of bullet and method used. A rifled barrel is going to score a bullet and if a bullet has no jacket then the lead bullet directly is being scored thus removing some of the bullet. That which is scored off will turn to dust and be expelled out of the front. That is part of what makes up the GSR expelled out of the muzzle.
It does not seem plausible to me that June and NB were in bed and JB crept in and opened fire. June sustained most of her gsw's from a distance of 2 or 3 feet away all to her front ie none to her rear. Yet with NB all his gsw's were sustained when the rifle was inches away from his skin
Putting aside the unreliability of Vanezis range guesses, Vanezis said June's wounds were received with the gun at least 1 foot from her. That is the distance of a standard ruler. That is close not far and places the killer at the foot of the bed. He didn't say the shooter was at least 2-3 feet away which would place the killer well outside of the area where the experts said the killer fired from. The x would be where the killer wound be with the gun several feet away:
(https://s23.postimg.org/o0g8o6amz/shooter.jpg)
11 inches is still inches away from his face and yet not much different than the foot that Vanezis claimed with respect to June.
and crucially 2 of the 4 gsw's he sustained upstairs were to his rear.
They weren't to his rear. The shots came at him sideways from a rearward position as opposed to sideways from the front. That is to be expected when someone sits sideways on the bed to get up while a shooter is at the foot of the bed.
The 2 to his face went straight on and back with a trajectory of approx 20 degrees below the horizontal. If the shooter was so close as to be able to inflict such wounds at close range whilst NB was seated in bed how did NB manage to get out of bed and turn to enable the shooter to inflict gsw's to his rear?
They were not totally straight, they had a slight angle, the lip was an oblique shot that went sideways through his teeth.
Nevill sits up in bed with the killer at the foot of the bed what is facing the shooter? The front of his head. A shooter who is right handed will aim at which side? The left. A shooter not exactly in front of Nevill but more towards the middle of the bed will slightly angle the shots. After being shot in the face Nevill turns to his right in order to get out of bed.
So this is what someone would see when at the foot of the bed and someone sits up, they see the person's face:
(https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/514156/311052122/stock-photo-young-man-suffering-from-neckache-in-bedroom-311052122.jpg)
(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/man-having-breakfast-in-bed-picture-id496682118?s=170667a)
This is what the killer sees when the person turns to get up out of bed:
(http://image1.masterfile.com/getImage/619-01722517em-African-American-man-sitting-on-edge-of-bed.jpg)
The killer sees the side and part of the back. The killer can shoot the side but the angle of the bullet will be from back to the person's front. Hence why the shot to Nevill's shoulder was towards the rear of the shoulder moving forward and down. Hence the graze shot scraping the back of the arm, the side and then across the chest.
Nevill was not lying down he had to be sitting up when shot in the face. I already explained why numerous times. If lying down then the shots would have traveled upwards not downward. If standing upright likewise they would have to have traveled upwards because only a shooter as tall or taller than Nevill would hold the weapon at a height where it would be downward.
June in contrast was lying down when she suffered at least 1 of her shots and most likely 2. The shots were from right to left. The killer was at middle of the foot of the bed and turned to aim at her. Her head was on her pillow when she was shot in the head according to blood experts who looked at the issue after the conviction.
3 of the bullets exited her and entered the bed. She probably was lying down when shot in the leg. It is believed she raised her legs to try to protect herself. The evidence can't establish one way or another whether she was lying down when shot in the arm. You can move your arm up above you body while lying down and it can be in the same spot when you sit up. She was seated when shot in the neck because the trajectory was downward. If she were lying down the trajectory would have been upwards. Likewise she was seated when shot 2 times in the chest because the trajectories were downward.
So what the evidence supports is the killer shooting June at least 2 times while she was lying down then shooting her more as she was sitting up and shooting Nevill 4 times as he sat up and 2 more times after he turned to get out of bed. All shots being fired from the foot of the bed.
No experts have ever attempted a soc reconstruction. It's all along the lines of JB crept into his parents bedroom and shot them. Yet when you break down all the indvidual parts it simply doesn't add up and I have no doubt that experts creating a reconstruction based on exacts measurements of WHF, soc photos, autopsy report and photos and other data such as casings and bloodstaining or lack of will come to the same conclusion.
It adds up completely. Jeremy walked in the bedroom and either woke them up then fired or he simply started firing and that woke them up. He went to the foot of the bed and shot June while she was lying down, then either turned to Nevill after he popped up or continued to shoot June as she sat up and then turned to Nevill.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/couple-relaxing-bed-newspaper-digital-tablet-sitting-up-34155213.jpg)
Someone standing at the foot of the bed in the middle or a little towards Nevill's side is going to target which side of the woman in that photo? (Because the photo is so big you have to scroll to see the woman, at first I wondered where the hell the woman went but she is there if you scroll) The shots will hit her right side and travel right to left. The shots will hit Nevill towards the left.
Nevill turns his upper body to get out of bed. Which side faces the killer? His left side butt the killer is to the rear and left of Nevill at this point.
There is no mystery at all, it is fully what would be expected.
The casings would shoot to June's side of the bed and to the floor near June. That is where the casings were.
The only mysteries of any sort are 1) where did DRH/5 ricochet from after grazing Nevill. That's the only thing out of place that can't have landed naturally where it was found. 2) When exactly did he shoot June between the eyes and did he have to move her body at all 3) Why did June walk to Nevill's side of the bed after being shot and 4) did Nevill chase Jeremy or Jeremy chase Nevill to the kitchen.
The reason they are mysteries is because they can't be answered by any evidence other than Jeremy telling the truth and he may not even know why June walked around the bed because he may not have been in the room when she did so and it is doubtful he would know anything about the bullet that ricocheted either.
-
The report you keep quoting from is not the examination records. The first thing the lab did was examine the bullets and write up an examination record for each bullet and casing. The examination record details the exact weight and rifling characteristics. The lab examination record details the weight as 37 grains and 8 lands and grooves.
His report described the general appearance of bullets he doesn't claim any of them are whole in the sense of the entire bullet is present. BY DEFINITION any slugs recovered are fragments not entire bullets because when a bullet is fired part of the bullet breaks off just from being scored by the rifling. More will break off upon impacts. The only way to get a complete bullet through firing is in lab test firings and even then some can be lost depending upon the type of bullet and method used. A rifled barrel is going to score a bullet and if a bullet has no jacket then the lead bullet directly is being scored thus removing some of the bullet. That which is scored off will turn to dust and be expelled out of the front. That is part of what makes up the GSR expelled out of the muzzle.
Putting aside the unreliability of Vanezis range guesses, Vanezis said June's wounds were received with the gun at least 1 foot from her. That is the distance of a standard ruler. That is close not far and places the killer at the foot of the bed. He didn't say the shooter was at least 2-3 feet away which would place the killer well outside of the area where the experts said the killer fired from. The x would be where the killer wound be with the gun several feet away:
(https://s23.postimg.org/o0g8o6amz/shooter.jpg)
11 inches is still inches away from his face and yet not much different than the foot that Vanezis claimed with respect to June.
They weren't to his rear. The shots came at him sideways from a rearward position as opposed to sideways from the front. That is to be expected when someone sits sideways on the bed to get up while a shooter is at the foot of the bed.
They were not totally straight, they had a slight angle, the lip was an oblique shot that went sideways through his teeth.
Nevill sits up in bed with the killer at the foot of the bed what is facing the shooter? The front of his head. A shooter who is right handed will aim at which side? The left. A shooter not exactly in front of Nevill but more towards the middle of the bed will slightly angle the shots. After being shot in the face Nevill turns to his right in order to get out of bed.
So this is what someone would see when at the foot of the bed and someone sits up, they see the person's face:
(https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/514156/311052122/stock-photo-young-man-suffering-from-neckache-in-bedroom-311052122.jpg)
(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/man-having-breakfast-in-bed-picture-id496682118?s=170667a)
This is what the killer sees when the person turns to get up out of bed:
(http://image1.masterfile.com/getImage/619-01722517em-African-American-man-sitting-on-edge-of-bed.jpg)
The killer sees the side and part of the back. The killer can shoot the side but the angle of the bullet will be from back to the person's front. Hence why the shot to Nevill's shoulder was towards the rear of the shoulder moving forward and down. Hence the graze shot scraping the back of the arm, the side and then across the chest.
Nevill was not lying down he had to be sitting up when shot in the face. I already explained why numerous times. If lying down then the shots would have traveled upwards not downward. If standing upright likewise they would have to have traveled upwards because only a shooter as tall or taller than Nevill would hold the weapon at a height where it would be downward.
June in contrast was lying down when she suffered at least 1 of her shots and most likely 2. The shots were from right to left. The killer was at middle of the foot of the bed and turned to aim at her. Her head was on her pillow when she was shot in the head according to blood experts who looked at the issue after the conviction.
3 of the bullets exited her and entered the bed. She probably was lying down when shot in the leg. It is believed she raised her legs to try to protect herself. The evidence can't establish one way or another whether she was lying down when shot in the arm. You can move your arm up above you body while lying down and it can be in the same spot when you sit up. She was seated when shot in the neck because the trajectory was downward. If she were lying down the trajectory would have been upwards. Likewise she was seated when shot 2 times in the chest because the trajectories were downward.
So what the evidence supports is the killer shooting June at least 2 times while she was lying down then shooting her more as she was sitting up and shooting Nevill 4 times as he sat up and 2 more times after he turned to get out of bed. All shots being fired from the foot of the bed.
It adds up completely. Jeremy walked in the bedroom and either woke them up then fired or he simply started firing and that woke them up. He went to the foot of the bed and shot June while she was lying down, then either turned to Nevill after he popped up or continued to shoot June as she sat up and then turned to Nevill.
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/couple-relaxing-bed-newspaper-digital-tablet-sitting-up-34155213.jpg)
Someone standing at the foot of the bed in the middle or a little towards Nevill's side is going to target which side of the woman in that photo? (Because the photo is so big you have to scroll to see the woman, at first I wondered where the hell the woman went but she is there if you scroll) The shots will hit her right side and travel right to left. The shots will hit Nevill towards the left.
Nevill turns his upper body to get out of bed. Which side faces the killer? His left side butt the killer is to the rear and left of Nevill at this point.
There is no mystery at all, it is fully what would be expected.
The casings would shoot to June's side of the bed and to the floor near June. That is where the casings were.
The only mysteries of any sort are 1) where did DRH/5 ricochet from after grazing Nevill. That's the only thing out of place that can't have landed naturally where it was found. 2) When exactly did he shoot June between the eyes and did he have to move her body at all 3) Why did June walk to Nevill's side of the bed after being shot and 4) did Nevill chase Jeremy or Jeremy chase Nevill to the kitchen.
The reason they are mysteries is because they can't be answered by any evidence other than Jeremy telling the truth and he may not even know why June walked around the bed because he may not have been in the room when she did so and it is doubtful he would know anything about the bullet that ricocheted either.
Your first para is covered in my previous post on the thread about DRH/5.
Dr Vanezis did not estimate the distance of shots. This task fell to ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher. He estimated the distance of shots sustained by June as follows:
1 x > 1 foot away - right side of head, above ear
2 x within 2 feet - right shoulder, base of neck
1 x > 3 feet away - right forearm
1 x > 2 feet away - right side, lower rib cage
1 x unable to determine - right side of chest
1 x < 1 foot away - above bridge of nose
Conversely the distance of shots sustained by NB are as follows:
2 x within inches - lip and jaw
2 x > feet away - shoulder and elbow/chest
I have attached a statement from MF in the regard. I'm missing the page re NB's shoulder and elbow/chest shot but have taken the info from the CoA doc:
"The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body". (Point 64).
There's a significant distance between the distance of gsw's sustained by June and NB's facial gsw's sustained when the muzzle was within inches of his skin. This is crucial along with the fact that all June's wounds were inflicted to her front and two of NB's upstairs gsw's were inflicted to his rear.
At trial Dr Vanezis described NB's facial gsw's going straight in and backwards. The wound to his left shoulder as the outer aspect and the graze wound to his elbow/chest as above the left elbow. Trial testimony attached and body image locating wound sites. There's no evidence he sustained any wounds to his side. How can NB have sustained two facial gsw's whilst seated or partially seated in bed before getting out of bed, getting past JB with a loaded firearm and JB then inflicing two gsw's to NB's rear as he flees the bedroom? The totality of the physcial evidence doesn't support this at all. The totality of the physical evidence by way of blood or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks supports the following:
NB and SC downstairs. NB calls JB. SC goes upstairs and shoots June. NB appears on the landing stairs and sustains the gsw's to his lip and jaw whilst he is stood on the landing stairs and SC is in the doorway of the main bedroom. NB then retreats and is on the main stairs facing down towards the hall with SC behind when she inflicts the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow.
None of the bullets entered the bed as you claim. Two entered June's pillow with one on the bed and another by the dressing table.
-
Your first para is covered in my previous post on the thread about DRH/5.
Dr Vanezis did not estimate the distance of shots. This task fell to ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher. He estimated the distance of shots sustained by June as follows:
1 x > 1 foot away - right side of head, above ear
2 x within 2 feet - right shoulder, base of neck
1 x > 3 feet away - right forearm
1 x > 2 feet away - right side, lower rib cage
1 x unable to determine - right side of chest
1 x < 1 foot away - above bridge of nose
Conversely the distance of shots sustained by NB are as follows:
2 x within inches - lip and jaw
2 x > feet away - shoulder and elbow/chest
I have attached a statement from MF in the regard. I'm missing the page re NB's shoulder and elbow/chest shot but have taken the info from the CoA doc:
"The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body". (Point 64).
There's a significant distance between the distance of gsw's sustained by June and NB's facial gsw's sustained when the muzzle was within inches of his skin. This is crucial along with the fact that all June's wounds were inflicted to her front and two of NB's upstairs gsw's were inflicted to his rear.
At trial Dr Vanezis described NB's facial gsw's going straight in and backwards. The wound to his left shoulder as the outer aspect and the graze wound to his elbow/chest as above the left elbow. Trial testimony attached and body image locating wound sites. There's no evidence he sustained any wounds to his side. How can NB have sustained two facial gsw's whilst seated or partially seated in bed before getting out of bed, getting past JB with a loaded firearm and JB then inflicing two gsw's to NB's rear as he flees the bedroom? The totality of the physcial evidence doesn't support this at all. The totality of the physical evidence by way of blood or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks supports the following:
NB and SC downstairs. NB calls JB. SC goes upstairs and shoots June. NB appears on the landing stairs and sustains the gsw's to his lip and jaw whilst he is stood on the landing stairs and SC is in the doorway of the main bedroom. NB then retreats and is on the main stairs facing down towards the hall with SC behind when she inflicts the gsw's to NB's shoulder and elbow.
None of the bullets entered the bed as you claim. Two entered June's pillow with one on the bed and another by the dressing table.
"Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body. The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely. Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest."
"In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body."
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html
Those were the estimates presented at trial and they were not supported by any hard evidence. There was no explanation of the basis of his estimates other than exploration of the reasoning for interpreting wounds as contact or near contact. Experts are supposed to explain the basis of their claims so their claims can be tested.
The main way to tell distance is by the powder burn damage and other wound damage attributes. Experts are frequently proven wrong when other experts opine. Sometimes they will establish there is no way to tell the distance other times they may actually explain and prove a different distance is correct by taking into account things the other expert failed to. The main thing he was supposed to assess was whether wounds were contact wounds, he was not on solid footing on other estimates he was just wildly guessing. June was under the covers when she was shot so how would that enable her to get GSR surrounding the wound? The 2 head shots are the only exceptions to that. That alone makes trying to assess the range of the other shots difficult. Nevill's clothing likewise created difficulties. The head shots in contrast were not covered. He still didn't explain the basis of his opinion with respect to the headshots but it is more credible he was able to assess those distances than the rest though he could have screwed them up too since he never proved his point with credible analysis.
By the way, it turns out that Fletcher posited the same thing I did about the bullet from the arm crossing her chest and ending up in the pillow. He must have posited it in his direct examination because on cross the defense questioned such where he said it is possible but not a certainty that her breast wound was from a bullet but if it were from a bullet then it could have been from the bullet that exited her arm:
(https://s9.postimg.org/f1qwy8z6n/fletchercross.jpg)
and it was broached again on the prosecution's recross:
(https://s32.postimg.org/h7vf9psh1/fletcherrecross.jpg)
Fletcher never bothered to fully explore what happened to the bulk of the bullet that grazed Nevill nor did the prosecution request him to. It was not important to the case so they didn't care. Of course today we have a different attitude and want to cover all bases regardless but they didn't.