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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2016, 02:45:45 AM
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What I notice is that there seems to be a reluctance to enter the apartment. Yet Amaral says there had been 20 people in there contaminating the crime scene? I can't see how he got to such a high number!
We need to have a count up and list all those who entered the apartment after Kate's alarm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann
It was widely acknowledged that mistakes were made, perhaps the most serious of which was that the crime scene was not secured. Around 20 people entered apartment 5A before it was closed off, according to Chief Inspector Olegário de Sousa of the Polícia Judiciária.[66] According to Madeleine's mother, an officer placed tape across the doorway of the children's bedroom, but left at 3 am without securing the apartment.[67]
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A similar situation arose outside the apartment. A crowd gathered by the front door of 5A, including next to the children's bedroom window through which an abductor may have entered or left, trampling on potentially important evidence.[69] An officer dusted the bedroom window's exterior shutter for fingerprints without wearing gloves or other protective clothing.[44]
It would be impossible to tell who gathered outside, so we'll concentrate on the inside only.
Since it is reported "Around 20 people entered apartment 5A before it was closed off, according to Chief Inspector Olegário de Sousa of the Polícia Judiciária.[66]" it maybe possible to find his list of people.
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What I notice is that there seems to be a reluctance to enter the apartment. Yet Amaral says there had been 20 people in there contaminating the crime scene? I can't see how he got to such a high number!
We need to have a count up and list all those who entered the apartment after Kate's alarm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann
It would be impossible to tell who gathered outside, so we'll concentrate on the inside only.
Since it is reported "Around 20 people entered apartment 5A before it was closed off, according to Chief Inspector Olegário de Sousa of the Polícia Judiciária.[66]" it maybe possible to find his list of people.
What is the time scale? Until the apartment was sealed off, everyone and his dog was permitted to enter.
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What is the time scale? Until the apartment was sealed off, everyone and his dog was permitted to enter.
Yes till it was sealed off as a crime scene. I have looked for a list on the web and nothing has came up other than repetitions of Sousa's claim that 20 people had entered the apartment till that time.
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There was the 5 in the McCann family Kate , Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie OK I hadn't factored in Madeleine Sean and Amelie originally - OK so we are a quarter of the way to 20 already.
I know of the three OC MW staff well known to have been in there Amy Tierney, Emma Knight, and Silvia Batista
I think we would have to include Matt Oldfield since he did the 9:30 check (this is whether or not it is later reported he didn't go in there.
I know there were the two GNR that Kate called Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb we should be able to get their names. So we are up to 11 but can we find another 9?
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There was the 5 in the McCann family Kate , Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie OK I hadn't factored in Madeleine Sean and Amelie originally - OK so we are a quarter of the way to 20 already.
I know of the three OC MW staff well known to have been in there Amy Tierney, Emma Knight, and Silvia Batista
I think we would have to include Matt Oldfield since he did the 9:30 check (this is whether or not it is later reported he didn't go in there.
I know there were the two GNR that Kate called Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb we should be able to get their names. So we are up to 11 but can we find another 9?
What is the start time? Is it Kate's alarm, around 10pm, in which case we have to discount MBM?
Is it 5.30pm, when the kids were signed out of high tea?
Is it 6.30pm, when David Payne testified he saw all 3 kids alive?
Is it 8.35pm when the McCanns chatted to the Carpenters at Tapas?
If you mean who's DNA was in the apartment, then we have to chuck in the cleaners (x2) and the repair men (x2).
Where are the goalposts?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Jose Maria Batista Roque
The questioned made, the deponent states that the access to interior of the residence was accessed through a principal door- this is, a wood door which is placed facing north;
. Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor;
. The deponent stats that he is unable to specify if that entrance door was found open or closed when he reached the apartment during which he was taking in the facts with the witness
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
. Following, this patrol went to the residence where the family of said minor was staying in the 'Ocean Garden' together with the father;
. At reaching the location, the two elements that made up the patrol , the current witness and his colleague, Jose Roque, proceeded into the interior of the apartment, with the goal of investigating the contours which eventually surrounded the disappearance of that minor;
So da Costa and Roque definitely say they entered but they are already in our count.
What is the start time? Is it Kate's alarm, around 10pm, in which case we have to discount MBM?
Is it 5.30pm, when the kids were signed out of high tea?
Is it 6.30pm, when David Payne testified he saw all 3 kids alive?
Is it 8.35pm when the McCanns chatted to the Carpenters at Tapas?
If you mean who's DNA was in the apartment, then we have to chuck in the cleaners (x2) and the repair men (x2).
Where are the goalposts?
Maybe I don't know. So do you have the names of "the cleaners (x2) and the repair men (x2)" We will include them.
15 if we include the cleaner and servicemen.
Surely the remaining 5 would be some of the Tapas group.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Jose Maria Batista Roque
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm
So da Costa and Roque definitely say they entered but they are already in our count.
Maybe I don't know. So do you have the names of "the cleaners (x2) and the repair men (x2)" We will include them.
15 if we include the cleaner and servicemen.
Surely the remaining 5 would be some of the Tapas group.
The point is the two cleaners cleaned 5A on the Saturday before the McCanns arrived. With one cleaning on the Wednesday.
The repair men turned up on Monday, from memory. A washing machine Kate could not operate. A shutter Gerry had jammed.
So it is still timescale. People through 5A after the alarm was raised? Or when does the clock start? Any clue?
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All I know is this statement "Around 20 people entered apartment 5A before it was closed off, according to Chief Inspector Olegário de Sousa of the Polícia Judiciária". What time scale gets included I don't know, but if we find we can easily exceed the 20 maybe the Saturday cleaners, Wednesday cleaners or the servicemen were not included by de Sousa. We will just keep adding them up till we exhaust our supply of information, OK.
We still have to find another 5 before we need to eliminate some of these unlikely included ones.
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The point is the two cleaners cleaned 5A on the Saturday before the McCanns arrived. With one cleaning on the Wednesday.
The repair men turned up on Monday, from memory. A washing machine Kate could not operate. A shutter Gerry had jammed.
So it is still timescale. People through 5A after the alarm was raised? Or when does the clock start? Any clue?
Do you know their names?
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Looking at the Tapas 7
.... ...... states Towards 10pm, Kate went to her apartment, and less than 5 minutes later, she came back to the restaurant, breaking down, reporting that Madeleine had disappeared. Then everybody went to the apartment occupied by Madeleine's family. He remembers comments concerning the fact that the window and the shutters were open, while they had remained closed throughout the week.
That the apartment occupied by Madeleine's family comprises two bedrooms, a small kitchen, a lounge and a bathroom. That the lounge has a door which gives outside access in the direction of the restaurant. He does not recall any more details of the apartment but he remembers that the bedroom occupied by the children has a window that looks onto the main road. That he never went into the said bedroom occupied by the children but he could see that there were two beds and two cots. The cots were placed in the middle of the bedroom. One of the beds was placed against the window and the other, the one occupied by Madeleine, was against the wall facing the one which has a window.
So he went into the apartment but not the kids bedroom.
Fiona Payne - plenty of people saw her there and she seems to admit it. Immediately, they organised search groups, either in the apartment thinking that she could be hidden, or outside, which resulted in nothing, even with the help of the employees.
Due to Kate's highly anxious state, she decided to stay with her, giving her all support she needed.
Russell O'Brien - I take it well known he went inside to make up the timelines. states that he went to the apartment of the McCann couple once but does not remember if he was asked to go or went of his own accord. He furthers that he did not know if the glass sliding doors were locked or not but that probably Gerry told him on this night to enter his apartment to check on the children. The deponent explains that for him and his spouse, this system was secure and effective and each couple would check on their children every 15/30 minutes. For his part, he guarantees that all the doors and windows were closed and locked, explaining that the windows and the glass sliding doors can only be open and closed via the interior of the apartment.
Jane Tanner - Not in 5A initially but later goes in to tell Gerry of seeing TannerMan. So ultimately Yes.
Rachel Oldfield - Not in 5A I didnt go into the apartment, standing at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors
Dianne Webster - They immediately organised search parties, in the apartment,
Dave .... ......, FP, MO, ROB, DW - JT - all entered the apartment, but not all in the bedroom.
So that adds up to 21 and we have not included the rest of the GNR and PJ when they arrive, do any of them enter the apartment?
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Looking at the PJ
PHOTOS TAKEN BY JOAO BARREIRAS PJ OFFICER - so we can safely say he was there.
In his statement he knows about others there too. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm
As far as he knows, after the first examination, other members from the finger print detection service and also officers from the LPC Crime Scene arrived at the scene.
Also: When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.
Also At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.
also After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins
I have a feeling these two [Vitor Martins and Barreiras were not included as they took some precautions.
Intercalary Report by Inspector Joao Carlos 31-01-2008 - Just a summary.
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Manuel Joaquim Pessoa de Lencastre Queiroz Desk based. But the following two are said to go to the apartment.
Almost half an hour later, Inspector Martins accompanied by Assistant Specialist J. Barreiras left for the scene to carry out any inquiries that were necessary, including a Judicial Inspection of the scene..
I have a feeling these two [Vitor Martins and Barreiras were not included as they took some precautions so they are not included in a total.
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Gerry, Kate, Dave, Fiona, Dianne, Russell all say they were in there after the alarm was raised.
Nelson da Costa, Duarte and Roque (GNR) and Silvia (OC).
Amy and Emma. (OC)
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Gerry, Kate, Dave, Fiona, Dianne, Russell all say they were in there after the alarm was raised.
Nelson da Costa, Duarte and Roque (GNR) and Silvia (OC).
Amy and Emma. (OC)
I think you are wrong about Duarte http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
As regards the searches, he say that he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside. Upon arriving and finding out about the situation with his Chief Roque, he carried out a search in a GNR car of all the places the child could be, specifically in commercial establishments, swimming pools and open spaces.
He sounds really tired and seemed to do all his searching from the driver's seat of his car.
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" Around 20 people entered apartment 5A before it was closed off, according to Chief Inspector Olegário de Sousa of the Polícia Judiciária." We would never know whether he included the Mccann family who had every right to be there. The cleaners and maintenance men should not be blamed. Neither Matt if the only time he was in the apartment was during the check. So that wipes 10 off our count but who knows, unless we can find another 10 to take their place to get up to 20 again.
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Where was Matt when Fiona asks him to ring the police?
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I think you are wrong about Duarte http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htmHe sounds really tired and seemed to do all his searching from the driver's seat of his car.
I was basing it on the fact that a sample of his hair was taken, which suggests he was in the apartment at some point.
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Where was Matt when Fiona asks him to ring the police?
from Matt's 4th May statement Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter [external blinds].
So it sounds like he saw the window open and the shutter up at that time. So he was in the apartment after the alert.
I was basing it on the fact that a sample of his hair was taken, which suggests he was in the apartment at some point.
That could have been transferred by Silvia or Gerry when they went out to talk to him.
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As discussed on another thread Charlotte Pennington says
She also states that she searched the patio area of the residence where Madeleine stayed with her parents and siblings, and during which, she encountered many individuals inside the apartment but was not able to tell if they were complex employees or friends of the couple. She did not enter the residence in question;
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There was the 5 in the McCann family Kate , Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie OK I hadn't factored in Madeleine Sean and Amelie originally - OK so we are a quarter of the way to 20 already.
I know of the three OC MW staff well known to have been in there Amy Tierney, Emma Knight, and Silvia Batista
I think we would have to include Matt Oldfield since he did the 9:30 check (this is whether or not it is later reported he didn't go in there.
I know there were the two GNR that Kate called Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb we should be able to get their names. So we are up to 11 but can we find another 9?
Madeleine Sean and Amelie don't count - they didn't enter the apartment after the alarm, which is presumably the time you are interested in nailing definitively.
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from Matt's 4th May statement So it sounds like he saw the window open and the shutter up at that time. So he was in the apartment after the alert.
That could have been transferred by Silvia or Gerry when they went out to talk to him.
Matt's statement is wrong in that the whole group did not go to Madeleine' bedroom. Jane was in her own apartment and only heard later and Diane was left sitting at the table.
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Matt's statement is wrong in that the whole group did not go to Madeleine' bedroom. Jane was in her own apartment and only heard later and Diane was left sitting at the table.
I think he means basically the whole group with certain exceptions ....
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What is the start time? Is it Kate's alarm, around 10pm, in which case we have to discount MBM?
Is it 5.30pm, when the kids were signed out of high tea?
Is it 6.30pm, when David Payne testified he saw all 3 kids alive?
Is it 8.35pm when the McCanns chatted to the Carpenters at Tapas?
If you mean who's DNA was in the apartment, then we have to chuck in the cleaners (x2) and the repair men (x2).
Where are the goalposts?
some ask the question how could an abductor have entered 5a and not left dna....the answer is he would have....but was all dna collected and checked...obviouly not
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I think he means basically the whole group with certain exceptions ....
Of course he did, but that's not what he says. This is how errors creep in to statements.
What other errors might he and indeed other have made due to imprecise wording?
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I have looked at the links. It seems to be an assumption based solely on his rank that it was one of the GNR officers who attended the scene of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
This is the first time I heard of this.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5764.msg224054#msg224054
One of those GNR officers was very capable of speaking English.
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Of course he did, but that's not what he says. This is how errors creep in to statements.
What other errors might he and indeed other have made due to imprecise wording?
It could be blamed on an twice translated statement error. As I believe the original statement should have been written in English then translated for the benefit of the investigator. We would then be able to see exactly what Matt says provided we could read his handwriting.
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This is going to make a definitive study a bit tricky.
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This is going to make a definitive study a bit tricky.
Cross referencing till we get the truth.
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Cross referencing till we get the truth.
Will almost certainly involve 'interpretation' over what is meant, which will introduce bias.
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Will almost certainly involve 'interpretation' over what is meant, which will introduce bias.
That's fair enough if the end result is a workable hypothesis.
You get different solutions but you have to use the one that works.
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It should not be forgotten that the main CSI team did not enter 5a until 1530hrs on 4/5/07. Who knows how many, besides the first arguido, had authorised access to the crime scene prior to that time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
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It should not be forgotten that the main CSI team did not enter 5a until 1530hrs on 4/5/07. Who knows how many, besides the first arguido, had authorised access to the crime scene prior to that time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
I'm just hoping the forensics team took care to not contaminate the crime scene. So let's not suggest that, even though there were reports the fingerprinting person wasn't dressed to the highest standard.
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I said Jane didn't go into the apartment but in her own words
And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”
So that is a yes for Jane.
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And there is this http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7813.msg368453#msg368453 a piece of DNA from some unknown person.
The ultimate prize but not the database to link the sample to a name.
Thanks G-unit for the link.
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Another gem from G-unit http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7813.msg368459#msg368459
From that it would appear we not only have to include the cleaners and service personnel but also previous tenants.
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Do you know their names?
Luis Ferro.
Maria Da Silva.
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I was thinking DNA could be a misspelling of Deolinda or a nickname for her. DNA as in Deolinda Maria da Silva Cristino Norte.
But she makes it clear she doesn't work in the Ocean Club garden apartments.
"She cleans in the Waterside group quite far from the Garden area where the apartment the girl disappeared from is located."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DEOLINDA_NORTE.htm
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27 Oct 2013 this press release came out: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeline-mccann-police-hunt-three-2644559
Police on the re-opened case want to interview janitors who blamed the gypsies for the break-ins.
Officers believe the maintenance men, who fixed a blind in the McCanns’ holiday flat two days before Madeleine went missing in May 2007, are crucial to the case.
Luis Ferro and Mario Moreira were ordered to flat 5A to mend a broken blind in Kate and Gerry’s bedroom at 10am on May 1.
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Thanks for your help on that. Any idea who DNA or DTNA is?
Maria Julia Serafim da Silva mentions a helper DTNA as initials but I can't relate that to a name on the cleaners list.
Also she mentions 2 cots were delivered by MW staff while the cleaning was being done so those would have their DNA on them too.So that is 4 outsiders in the apartment on Saturday.
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You may find you make faster progress in your efforts if you check the original Portuguese statement when you hit this sort of issue.
Bear in mind that the Portuguese statements were scanned for release, and I've never come across OCR software that was perfect.
Also bear in mind that the amateur translators can also introduce errors.
Maria refers to her friend twice. The second is DTNA (an OCR error). The first is DINA. A minor translation error changed to DNA.
The person is Dina Rocha. She does not mention cleaning 5A explicitly. She says that on Saturday, handover day, she would help other cleaners if she was free. It's Maria's statement that puts Dina in 5A when MW staff got in.
When you get round to thinking keys, this means the cleaners had access to keys and MW staff had access to keys.
And I'm not aware of any statements in the files made by cot deliverers.
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You may find you make faster progress in your efforts if you check the original Portuguese statement when you hit this sort of issue.
Bear in mind that the Portuguese statements were scanned for release, and I've never come across OCR software that was perfect.
Also bear in mind that the amateur translators can also introduce errors.
Maria refers to her friend twice. The second is DTNA (an OCR error). The first is DINA. A minor translation error changed to DNA.
The person is Dina Rocha. She does not mention cleaning 5A explicitly. She says that on Saturday, handover day, she would help other cleaners if she was free. It's Maria's statement that puts Dina in 5A when MW staff got in.
When you get round to thinking keys, this means the cleaners had access to keys and MW staff had access to keys.
And I'm not aware of any statements in the files made by cot deliverers.
Thanks for the lead on Dina. I had read her statement and questioned it. She doesn't openly state she helped out in that 5A apartment. I wonder why she needed to be so beating around the bush. She would have seen the cots and knew the number of kids arriving.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-CASTELA.htm confirms these two cleaners worked 5A and that cots were delivered by MW staff.
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Optical Character Recognition, commonly referred to as OCR, is the process of converting scanned images of letters and words into a electronic versions.
"Police on the re-opened case want to interview janitors who blamed the gypsies for the break-ins." Yes you might wonder how the maintenance men knew more than the local police on this matter. I might have thought the locals were using the gypsies as a scapegoat for their own crimes. Well at least SY picked up on it too and reinvestigated these two.
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from Matt's 4th May statement So it sounds like he saw the window open and the shutter up at that time. So he was in the apartment after the alert.
That could have been transferred by Silvia or Gerry when they went out to talk to him.
from Matt's 4th May statement
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the children's bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter [external blinds].
I wonder how Matt worked out so quickly there had not been a burglary? Especially when the window was open and the shutters up.
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some ask the question how could an abductor have entered 5a and not left dna....the answer is he would have....but was all dna collected and checked...obviously not
How do you collect this "all DNA"? If you used something like a vacuum cleaner with a fine filter you would get a mixed sample and hence you could never isolate it to any one individual. In my understanding they would have to find some tissue, a hair or blood or something like that that would have come from just 1 person and then work out whose it was. It isn't that easy to find these minute samples.
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Maybe vacuum up the hair and wash each hair to remove other DNA and extract the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) or nuclear DNA if there is a root bulb present. mtDNA is not person specific. but is passed down through the maternal line.
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from Matt's 4th May statement
I wonder how Matt worked out so quickly there had not been a burglary? Especially when the window was open and the shutters up.
No drawers pulled out and no furniture turned over is a pretty good clue, especially if he has experienced burglary himself.
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No drawers pulled out and no furniture turned over is a pretty good clue, especially if he has experienced burglary himself.
"Nothing of value taken"! As we have already discussed.
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"Nothing of value taken"! As we have already discussed.
That too. 8((()*/
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from Matt's 4th May statement
I wonder how Matt worked out so quickly there had not been a burglary? Especially when the window was open and the shutters up.
Did Matthew go into the apartment?
10th May;
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Rog. interview;
If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Did Matthew go into the apartment?
10th May;
Asked, he relates that when he entered the apartment, from memory, he did not approach MBM's bedroom therefore cannot provide any details about its condition.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Rog. interview;
If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Well when I read Matt's 4th May statement I took that to mean he also saw the window open and shutter up. I'll check it again tomorrow.
Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's bedroom and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment. Only one window in the childrens' bedroom was open. The window was open and the respective shutter [external blinds].
And if he didn't go in after Kate's alert he definitely had been in before so we would expect to find some forensic evidence of Matt in the apartment.
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Well when I read Matt's 4th May statement I took that to mean he also saw the window open and shutter up. I'll check it again tomorrow.
And if he didn't go in after Kate's alert he definitely had been in before so we would expect to find some forensic evidence of Matt in the apartment.
The hairs were examined using mitochondrial DNA.
53 belonged to Kate (might some have belonged to her children?)
24 to Gerry
1 to Matthew
1 to Dave
2 to Russell
17 to unidentified persons.
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The hairs were examined using mitochondrial DNA.
53 belonged to Kate (might some have belonged to her children?)
24 to Gerry
1 to Matthew
1 to Dave
2 to Russell
17 to unidentified persons.
Not forgetting the dog hairs.
Specialist Examination Report 200707060-CR/LRequester: DIC PJ Portimao
Fax: 399 of 8 May 2007
Date: 4 May 2007
Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination.Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077710/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2015
Or the botched prior attempt of technicians to take samples from the apartment ... which resulted in any chance of getting the most relevant and important forensic information from the crime scene being destroyed.
The dire effect that had just cannot be underestimated
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Not forgetting the dog hairs.
...... snip
Dog hairs - we are not talking hairs from Eddie and Keela but the sniffer dogs, so does that mean their handlers were inside the apartment too? The dog handlers have not been included in any count as yet.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
Kate, Gerry, David, Fiona, Russell, Jane, Dianne, Matthew
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Victor Martins states:
That Gerald McCann, the missing girl's father, informed him that the children of the couples friends were in another apartment and that they were being looked after by the mother of one of the friends [Dianne Webster], who was never present in the apartment whilst the inquiries were being carried out.
I wonder why that requires a special mention?
Dianne webster was in the apartment earlier though.
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John Hill states:
- On the night of the disappearance he always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time,
I'm not sure that means he himself went into the apartment, but I think by listing his name you think he did.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
As regards the searches, he say that he did not enter the apartment, as it had already been searched, but instead remained outside.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm When they entered the apartment they did not speak to anyone,......
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The hairs were examined using mitochondrial DNA.
53 belonged to Kate (might some have belonged to her children?)
24 to Gerry
1 to Matthew
1 to Dave
2 to Russell
17 to unidentified persons.
Do you have where these hairs were found within the apartment?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
Kate, Gerry, David, Fiona, Russell, Jane, Dianne, Matthew
Some of those are debatable as to whether they were in the apartment.
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Not forgetting the dog hairs.
Specialist Examination Report 200707060-CR/LRequester: DIC PJ Portimao
Fax: 399 of 8 May 2007
Date: 4 May 2007
Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination.Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077710/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2015
Or the botched prior attempt of technicians to take samples from the apartment ... which resulted in any chance of getting the most relevant and important forensic information from the crime scene being destroyed.
The dire effect that had just cannot be underestimated
I think they just picked up the human hairs and left the dog hairs.
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I think they just picked up the human hairs and left the dog hairs.
They would use a vacuum cleaner wouldn't they and then sort through the dust for hairs.
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They would use a vacuum cleaner wouldn't they and then sort through the dust for hairs.
Various collection methods exist. I don't know what method was used in this case.
http://crimeandclues.com/2013/04/05/trace-evidence-hair/
Here are the hairs and where found;
mtDNA Number of Comparison with
profile Samples Recovered from reference samples
B 3 3 entrance hall
B1 1 1 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
13 lounge
15 entrance hall
C 53 13 entrance to bedroom Kate Healy (Mother)
4 floor; bed next to window
1 bed of the child
7 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
D 1 1 lounge
D1 1 1 entrance to bedroom
D1 1 1 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
F 3 1 lounge
2 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
G 1 1 lounge Matthew Oldfield
I 1 1 entrance hall David Payne
-------------------------------------------------------
1 floor; bed next to window
J 3 1 entrance hall
1 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
K 14 1 Residencia Liliana
13 vehicle(envlps 1,3,4,5 and 6)
-------------------------------------------------------
1 spot on bedspread
L 8 1 entrance to bedroom
2 entrance hall
4 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
M 48 13 vehicle (envlps 1,2,3 and 4)
35 Residencia Liliana Robert Murat
-------------------------------------------------------
2 lounge
11 entrance hall
N 24 6 entrance to bedroom Gerald Mccann
2 floor; bed next to window
3 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
0 2 1 lounge
1 entrance hall Russell O'Brien
-------------------------------------------------------
Q 2 1 entrance hall
1 lounge
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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Various collection methods exist. I don't know what method was used in this case.
http://crimeandclues.com/2013/04/05/trace-evidence-hair/
Here are the hairs and where found;
mtDNA Number of Comparison with
profile Samples Recovered from reference samples
B 3 3 entrance hall
B1 1 1 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
13 lounge
15 entrance hall
C 53 13 entrance to bedroom Kate Healy (Mother)
4 floor; bed next to window
1 bed of the child
7 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
D 1 1 lounge
D1 1 1 entrance to bedroom
D1 1 1 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
F 3 1 lounge
2 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
G 1 1 lounge Matthew Oldfield
I 1 1 entrance hall David Payne
-------------------------------------------------------
1 floor; bed next to window
J 3 1 entrance hall
1 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
K 14 1 Residencia Liliana
13 vehicle(envlps 1,3,4,5 and 6)
-------------------------------------------------------
1 spot on bedspread
L 8 1 entrance to bedroom
2 entrance hall
4 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
M 48 13 vehicle (envlps 1,2,3 and 4)
35 Residencia Liliana Robert Murat
-------------------------------------------------------
2 lounge
11 entrance hall
N 24 6 entrance to bedroom Gerald Mccann
2 floor; bed next to window
3 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
0 2 1 lounge
1 entrance hall Russell O'Brien
-------------------------------------------------------
Q 2 1 entrance hall
1 lounge
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
L is rather interesting. Since the spot on the bedspread was attributed to a prior occupant, and since 7 hairs were also found from him, it seems reasonable to assume that the Saturday cleaning was not sufficient to remove all traces of previous occupants.
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L is rather interesting. Since the spot on the bedspread was attributed to a prior occupant, and since 7 hairs were also found from him, it seems reasonable to assume that the Saturday cleaning was not sufficient to remove all traces of previous occupants.
I find it interesting that so few hairs were found. The cleaner must have done a good job on the Wednesday morning. Perhaps she was able to spend more time in the week than on a Saturday? She still missed those hairs though, somehow.
Only one hair was found on Madeleine's bed which could have belonged to her, her mother or one of her siblings. The average number of hairs shed each day is 125, or just over 5 every hour. Madeleine seems to have been a below average hair shedder.
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I find it interesting that so few hairs were found. The cleaner must have done a good job on the Wednesday morning. Perhaps she was able to spend more time in the week than on a Saturday? She still missed those hairs though, somehow.
Only one hair was found on Madeleine's bed which could have belonged to her, her mother or one of her siblings. The average number of hairs shed each day is 125, or just over 5 every hour. Madeleine seems to have been a below average hair shedder.
That is interesting. Since Kate tells us that the evening routine was her and the twins piled onto Madeleine's bed, why aren't there more hairs on the bed?
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Did I understand that correctly that the "Kate Healy" group includes the kids as well?
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That is interesting. Since Kate tells us that the evening routine was her and the twins piled onto Madeleine's bed, why aren't there more hairs on the bed?
perhaps there were more hairs on the bed but the pj failed to collect them
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That is interesting. Since Kate tells us that the evening routine was her and the twins piled onto Madeleine's bed, why aren't there more hairs on the bed?
That story doesn't align with the physical and forensic evidence very well does it?
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That is interesting. Since Kate tells us that the evening routine was her and the twins piled onto Madeleine's bed, why aren't there more hairs on the bed?
As far as I can work it out it would be normal to shed a few during the night too. So a little unusual to find only one on Madeleine's bed and none on the bed under the window.
The FSS were a little vague about hairs, I thought. They were given the 'Rothley' pillowcase, 3 tops and a hairbrush which were examined for hairs.
12 hairs or hair fragments were found on the tops, none on the pillowcase or in the hairbrush. One was discounted because it was brown and they learned nothing from the other 11. In fact they couldn't be sure if they were all from the same person, and they didn't really think any of them belonged to Madeleine because they measured 1.77 inches or less, much shorter than her hair in photos.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm#1-2oa327-336
Where the tops and hairbrush came from I don't know, but it seems the FSS never obtained a reference sample of Madeleine's hair.
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My daughters had very long hair as children. Bedtime routine consisted of it being brushed, sometimes set in rags for ringlets, sometimes just tied loosely back. I do not recall finding loose hair on their pillows in the morning ... such an occurrence would have been noticed due to the length of the hairs.
Probably hairs due to be shed all ended up on their hairbrushes. I find nothing extraordinary in the lack of hair found on Madeleine's bed ... however, what I do consider extraordinary is that Madeleine's bedding was not secured in an evidence bag but was allowed to be taken to the laundry by the cleaner.
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Did I understand that correctly that the "Kate Healy" group includes the kids as well?
Mitochondrial DNA is passed to children by their mother. Kate's three children should have the same mitochondrial DNA as their mother and as each other. The only question arising is that Gerry alone shed 24 hairs, so 53 between the other four family members seems a bit sparse.
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Mitochondrial DNA is passed to children by their mother. Kate's three children should have the same mitochondrial DNA as their mother and as each other. The only question arising is that Gerry alone shed 24 hairs, so 53 between the other four family members seems a bit sparse.
Men of a certain age, depending on the specific man start losing their hair.
The little ones were not around as much as the parents and in any case they lose less hair.
Maybe that is why Gerrys hair showed up more ? But is it important?
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Men of a certain age, depending on the specific man start losing their hair.
The little ones were not around as much as the parents and in any case they lose less hair.
Maybe that is why Gerrys hair showed up more ? But is it important?
The importance of the hair samples had nothing to do with identifying those who had been legitimately on the premises ... it was to search for those belonging to persons whose hair should not have been found in that location.
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The importance of the hair samples had nothing to do with identifying those who had been legitimately on the premises ... it was to search for those belonging to persons whose hair should not have been found in that location.
And there seems quite a few without names linked to them.
Various collection methods exist. I don't know what method was used in this case.
http://crimeandclues.com/2013/04/05/trace-evidence-hair/
Here are the hairs and where found;
mtDNA Number of Comparison with
profile Samples Recovered from reference samples
B 3 3 entrance hall
B1 1 1 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
13 lounge
15 entrance hall
C 53 13 entrance to bedroom Kate Healy (Mother)
4 floor; bed next to window
1 bed of the child
7 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
D 1 1 lounge
D1 1 1 entrance to bedroom
D1 1 1 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
F 3 1 lounge
2 entrance hall
-------------------------------------------------------
G 1 1 lounge Matthew Oldfield
I 1 1 entrance hall David Payne
-------------------------------------------------------
1 floor; bed next to window
J 3 1 entrance hall
1 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
K 14 1 Residencia Liliana
13 vehicle(envlps 1,3,4,5 and 6)
-------------------------------------------------------
1 spot on bedspread
L 8 1 entrance to bedroom
2 entrance hall
4 floor; bed next to window
-------------------------------------------------------
M 48 13 vehicle (envlps 1,2,3 and 4)
35 Residencia Liliana Robert Murat
-------------------------------------------------------
2 lounge
11 entrance hall
N 24 6 entrance to bedroom Gerald Mccann
2 floor; bed next to window
3 floor; next to child's bed
-------------------------------------------------------
0 2 1 lounge
1 entrance hall Russell O'Brien
-------------------------------------------------------
Q 2 1 entrance hall
1 lounge
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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Has this paragraph been discussed before for it seems real bizarre:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
We went over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment I didn’t go in to the apartment. I can recall it would have been a similar layout to ours, although the furniture and décor was different to ours as the apartments are leased. I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion, but I’d imagine that there are wardrobes in there as there are in ours. When I had been into the apartment on previous occasions it had been dark.
When were the other occasions Russell was in the McCann's apartment in the dark? He went in there to write up the timeline didn't he? Surely he had the lights on?
When he says " I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion," were there other occasions? Which bedroom is he talking about?
Had Russell visited the McCann's apartment during the days prior to the 3rd?
It appears so. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
'Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.'
"access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside". Sounds like potential trouble noted br Russell.
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I can't see any discussion re those words yet Russell's entire statement is under a cloud
RUSSELL JAMES O'BRIEN SIGNED STATEMENT 08/04/08
Russell James O’Brien & The lost DVD Interview
Russell James O’Brien was questioned on the 8th of April from 9.55 a.m. until 8.18 p.m., divided into 5 distinct time periods (9.55 – 11.30 a.m., 12.01 – 12.50 a.m., 2.06 – 3.55 p.m., 5.15 – 6.56 p.m., and 7.37 – 8.18 p.m.). Officially, all the video images of this day were rendered useless because the video camera didn’t work… which means that Enderby police wants us to believe that, even during pauses, they never verified if the interrogation was being recorded correctly. This was the official version, the one that was offered to the Portuguese authorities. Nevertheless, the truth of facts is different, and Russell O’Brien was questioned again on the 10th of April; this time the camera worked.
We might have all read preceding explanation but what does this mean "the truth of facts is different". Were there different facts on different days? Is that what that means?
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Has this paragraph been discussed before for it seems real bizarre:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
When were the other occasions Russell was in the McCann's apartment in the dark? He went in there to write up the timeline didn't he? Surely he had the lights on?
When he says " I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion," were there other occasions? Which bedroom is he talking about?
Had Russell visited the McCann's apartment during the days prior to the 3rd?
It appears so. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
'Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.'
"access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside". Sounds like potential trouble noted br Russell.
The problem with his Sunday checks on the McCann children and the Oldfield child is that Matthew was in his apartment on Sunday night as he was unwell, His daughter didn't need to be checked therefore.
Reply 'No, no, but on that Sunday night, I dont, Matt didnt come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before, so he didnt, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didnt actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Just another discrepancy that was never explained.
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Can it just be brushed off as the wrong day? Maybe he should have said Monday rather than Sunday? From Gerry's rogatory there wasn't anything that suggested that he was aware of others doing checks on his kids, and isn't there the story that Kate was surprised by Matt's offer of checking on the kids on the Thursday.
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Can it just be brushed off as the wrong day? Maybe he should have said Monday rather than Sunday? From Gerry's rogatory there wasn't anything that suggested that he was aware of others doing checks on his kids, and isn't there the story that Kate was surprised by Matt's offer of checking on the kids on the Thursday.
You could say he got the day wrong, but then it's strange that Matthew and Rachael never mentioned it. It would have made Matthew's alleged offer to check the McCann children on Thursday seem less unusual.
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L is rather interesting. Since the spot on the bedspread was attributed to a prior occupant, and since 7 hairs were also found from him, it seems reasonable to assume that the Saturday cleaning was not sufficient to remove all traces of previous occupants.
This is just about mitochondrial DNA. It doesn't identify individuals. It establishes maternal lineage, but is not exclusive to a single maternal lineage, either. The spot on the bed was eventually established as saliva from a baby boy. The hairs could be his, his mum's or someone different who happens to share the same "L" mitochondrial group (or a mixture of all three).
In forensic terms, it was no more precise than establishing e.g. a blood group.
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This is just about mitochondrial DNA. It doesn't identify individuals. It establishes maternal lineage, but is not exclusive to a single maternal lineage, either. The spot on the bed was eventually established as saliva from a baby boy. The hairs could be his, his mum's or someone different who happens to share the same "L" mitochondrial group (or a mixture of all three).
In forensic terms, it was no more precise than establishing e.g. a blood group.
"The spot on the bed was eventually established as saliva from a baby boy" is that because a baby boy had previously live in 5A or had used the bedding before? Where did your information come from?
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Still within the area of collection, treatment and analysis of residues, the identification of a stain on the cover of one of the beds in MADELEINE’s bedroom (not the one she slept in), which raised some suspicions, should be pointed out.
Duly analysed, the stain configured a biological residue (saliva) that belonged to a child – CHARLIE GORDON – that had been on holidays, earlier and with his parents, in the same apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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Still within the area of collection, treatment and analysis of residues, the identification of a stain on the cover of one of the beds in MADELEINE’s bedroom (not the one she slept in), which raised some suspicions, should be pointed out.
Duly analysed, the stain configured a biological residue (saliva) that belonged to a child – CHARLIE GORDON – that had been on holidays, earlier and with his parents, in the same apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Well that really goes to show that when we consider the DNA etc in the apartment we have to consider previous tenants as well.
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Well that really goes to show that when we consider the DNA etc in the apartment we have to consider previous tenants as well.
Hasn't that been checked already.
There were no deaths or bodies in the apartment.
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Hasn't that been checked already.
There were no deaths or bodies in the apartment.
absolutely correct....never any deaths or bodies in the apartment
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Hasn't that been checked already.
There were no deaths or bodies in the apartment.
There is Russell admitting that he was coming and going from the McCann's apartment without any confirming statements from the McCann's that shows they were even aware that that was happening.
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"Did the friends of the McCanns tell the McCanns they were doing checks on the McCann kids? Did the friends of the McCanns tell them before they went? Show me the evidence of that first? If the friends of the McCanns are doing unannounced visit on the McCann's apartment what else could have been happening? We don't know unless they tell us.
How many of the friends were involved in these secretive visits?
I get the feeling the Thursday night 9:30 PM check was Matt's first venture into the McCann's apartment by the way he snoops around.
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Has this paragraph been discussed before for it seems real bizarre:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
When were the other occasions Russell was in the McCann's apartment in the dark? He went in there to write up the timeline didn't he? Surely he had the lights on?
When he says " I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion," were there other occasions? Which bedroom is he talking about?
Had Russell visited the McCann's apartment during the days prior to the 3rd?
It appears so. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
'Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.'
"access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside". Sounds like potential trouble noted br Russell.
Note how Russell has included Jane into these additional checks. Does she ever hint at that as well?
"It appears so. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
'Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits."
Does Jane confirm this? It is all we did this and we did that. Both of them???
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Does Jane confirm this? It is all "we" did this and "we" did that. Both of them???
Jane's rogatory you get the sense the officer is trying to get Jane to talk about the McCann's apartment. Here is an example: 4078 “Was your apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly different?”
Reply “Err I think it was the same more or less.”
So not real admission of additional knowledge there but maybe just a hint of it.
And another attempt:
4078 “And you knew that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t be able to wander out.”
Reply “Mm.”
And another with a very clear denial:
4078 “Because they had the biggest apartment. Did you go into any of the other apartments?”
Reply “We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing. I hadn’t been in to their apartment at all.”
So Russell is exaggerating a bit about Jane's checks in the McCann's apartment but she did go into Matt's and on what day was that?
4078 “Do you remember if you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there, or?”
Reply “Err I think, it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in, Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael came, came, came to ours.”
4078 “Okay. So on the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and Fiona’s?”
Reply “I think so. I’m not sure but I think so.”
So that makes it sound like Jane just went to the other apartments during the day time.
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In this article Charlotte Pennington it is claimed to have heard Kate's first words because she was in the apartment. So did Amy and her go over there together? That will explain why some others have referred to staff in pleural.
[quote]Miss Pennington, however, one of the first people to set foot in the couple's apartment after the disappearance, says she heard the mother use both phrases.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html#ixzz4Svba0AoF
[/quote]
Is that even hinted at in her statement?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
- She advised the aforementioned individual that no one had told them of the disappearance, who she believed by the name given, was Madeleine, also for the reason that Amy contacted via telephone her supervisor, Lyndsay, who informed her that Madeleine had indeed disappeared;
- After this situation, they began the "search procedure for a missing child" which consists of an organised search involving different areas of the complex in question;
Using statement analysis there are hints there that Charlotte and Amy went together.
1. That is how she knows Amy rang Lyndsay.
2. "After this situation" is the reference of to going to the apartment.
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In this article Charlotte Pennington it is claimed to have heard Kate's first words because she was in the apartment. So did Amy and her go over there together? That will explain why some others have referred to staff in pleural.
Is that even hinted at in her statement?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Using statement analysis there are hints there that Charlotte and Amy went together.
1. That is how she knows Amy rang Lyndsay.
2. "After this situation" is the reference of to going to the apartment.
According to Jackie Williams Charlotte went nowhere immediately;
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the crêche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
(Don't believe what it says in the newspapers)
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According to Jackie Williams Charlotte went nowhere immediately;
The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the crêche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
(Don't believe what it says in the newspapers)
That is "after this situation". That is what Charlotte does while the searches are initiated. It does not say she didn't go with Amy to the apartment.
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I should have read on a bit more. Charlotte says she was there at the apartment but didn't enter it.
- The witness states that she participated in the searches, together with her colleague, Amy, searching various areas of the Ocean Club establishment. She also states that she searched the patio area of the residence where Madeleine stayed with her parents and siblings, and during which, she encountered many individuals inside the apartment but was not able to tell if they were complex employees or friends of the couple. She did not enter the residence in question;
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Who was this mystery couple?
"Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared" http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
So is that another two we have to add to our list?
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You seem to be taking newspaper stories seriously again. This is the couple who walked past, but it was on Thursday, not Wednesday and if they saw anything they kept it very quiet;
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/
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You seem to be taking newspaper stories seriously again. This is the couple who walked past, but it was on Thursday, not Wednesday and if they saw anything they kept it very quiet;
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/
OK the Moyes' walked past on the Thursday but the headline says "Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared" That is pretty hard to work that out but I take that to mean the night before Madeleine disappeared so the interview with Mrs Moyes does not really describe that IMO.
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OK the Moyes' walked past on the Thursday but the headline says "Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared" That is pretty hard to work that out but I take that to mean the night before Madeleine disappeared so the interview with Mrs Moyes does not really describe that IMO.
Your newspaper story says;
''The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.''
It doesn't say who these witnesses were, but a lot of the article is clearly referring to the Moyes;
''We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February......They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm''
The article could be read as inferring that these were the 'two key witnesses' but that's highly unlikely as the Moyes saw nothing on either night, as they have said.
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Your newspaper story says;
''The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.''
It doesn't say who these witnesses were, but a lot of the article is clearly referring to the Moyes;
''We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February......They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm''
The article could be read as inferring that these were the 'two key witnesses' but that's highly unlikely as the Moyes saw nothing on either night, as they have said.
There always seem to be a disconnect between the news items and the files. Like there are no statements from the Moyes, and even though there were a couple of similarities in the Moyes story to the article there was not enough points to be sure. I can't be sure. I don't know.
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There always seem to be a disconnect between the news items and the files. Like there are no statements from the Moyes, and even though there were a couple of similarities in the Moyes story to the article there was not enough points to be sure. I can't be sure. I don't know.
What you can be sure of is that newspaper stories are usually a mixture of very few facts in amongst lots of rumour, speculation and tenuous connections.
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What you can be sure of is that newspaper stories are usually a mixture of very few facts in amongst lots of rumour, speculation and tenuous connections.
I can remember an incident from when I was quite young. I was debating something with my father. We enjoyed our discussions and he was generally quite good about sorting wheat from chaff.
I cannot remember what the debate was about. The thing that has stuck in my mind was that my father said it was printed in The Sun, and claimed therefore it must be true.
We had to agree to disagree on that point.
?{)(**
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I can remember an incident from when I was quite young. I was debating something with my father. We enjoyed our discussions and he was generally quite good about sorting wheat from chaff.
I cannot remember what the debate was about. The thing that has stuck in my mind was that my father said it was printed in The Sun, and claimed therefore it must be true.
We had to agree to disagree on that point.
?{)(**
He believed what was written in the sun but you claim he was good a sorting the wheat from the chaff... you need to think that through again
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He believed what was written in the sun but you claim he was good a sorting the wheat from the chaff... you need to think that through again
You changed the phrase I used - 'generally quite good' - into plain and simple 'good'. Why?
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You changed the phrase I used - 'generally quite good' - into plain and simple 'good'. Why?
Any system for " sorting the wheat from the chaff" would never be 100% perfect. Good memory to have of your Dad. Thanks SIL.
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There always seem to be a disconnect between the news items and the files. Like there are no statements from the Moyes, and even though there were a couple of similarities in the Moyes story to the article there was not enough points to be sure. I can't be sure. I don't know.
The Moyes never said they saw anyone enter the apartment (unless their statement is one of the many that appear to have been removed from the file).
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the topic has been discussed before:
No one has actually said they saw anyone entering the bedroom.
It is *believed* they entered the bedroom on 2nd May. IMO thats the journalists words in the context of the story being told.
@Carana, I agree the article is a little ambiguous, but the couple on the top flat are not the mystery couple being sought. It is not even clear if the couple, the Moyes, whose statements are described, are the two key witnesses who *tipped off* the police about a couple entering the apartment on the Wednesday, or whether it was others who were interviewed who did this. Six years on tbh I doubt it is them and this info has only just come out.
Unbelievable that James Murray penning stories for six years doesnt know the actual day of the Mrs Fenn crying episode. No one except the Mccanns have ever mentioned anything about any crying on a Wednesday. The date must be wrong. the Moyes never mentioned anything about any crying on a Wednesday and the day od the event, Tuesday, they werent there, so someone else has said this, if its true in the first place and not a fabrication.
Whats curious is that the couple walked home at around 9pm, were in the exact vicinity, were on the balcony at 9.15 and not a peep of seeing Jez Gerry Jane or others coming and going. That the PJ did not formally interview them is unbeleivable too especially as they were there for the whole month. And not even via rogatory. Strange.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/realmedia/2007/09/click_190907.ram
Scroll down to the Search for Maddie interview with Susan Moyes
Search for Maddie BBC - Stoke and Staffordshire
14 August 2007 - Susan Moyes owns an apartment two floors above the one the McCanns stayed in.
Transcript
By Nigel Moore
Question: This is a story you've followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night; you helped the police and the family in looking for Madeleine, didn't you?
Susan Moyes: Yes, we did and, yes, very, very concerned... concerned for the family and followed it, every day... every day.
Q: Can you take us back to that night and... and what you were doing and when you first heard there was a problem?
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock, round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people... thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Q: Now, to... to put it into perspective, we've all seen the pictures of the apartment where the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?
SM: Directly above, errm... we are but one above. Mrs Fenn, that lives there, was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns, so directly above.
The Moyes were sat on their balcony at 9:15 PM but report nothing suspicious
Q: And, errr... you were out there for a considerable... a considerable period of time?
SM: Yeah, we went out on the Wednesday; the day before sh..., errr... Madeleine went missing and we were out for the month of May.
Q: Tell me about the affect all of this has had on the... the local community there.
SM: It was, errr... unbelievable really. Apart from the disruption from the mass media, the helicopter - constantly circling round - and sheer disbelief really, everybody was completely, errm... well, amazed by it. Gobsmacked, really.
Q: What... I mean, what were the local community saying to you because obviously being out there such a time, you must have spoken to a lot of people about it? It must have been, if you like, the talk of the town.
SM: Mmm... There was a lot of criticism of the police, which... which we felt was unfounded, errm... at that time. And... really, a lot of... unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories...
Q: Speculation, if you like...
SM: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Q: And... we've got a copy of the newspaper here - in fact it's one of today's newspapers - The Express and... and it's still front page news, of course. Back in the news, there...
SM: Big... big style, yeah, yeah.
Q: How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean, have you... have you collected newspapers over the period?
SM: Oh yeah, I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very closely and I just… disbelief, no way... no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all, no.
Q: How do you feel they… they've been treated?
SM: I think, errm... initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think probably if they'd left the Algarve maybe a month ago, errm... it... it would have been treated more favourably, I think.
Q: It's difficult to know how... how to handle that kind of situation, from their point of view though, I suppose, isn't it?
SM: Beggar's belief... it beggar's belief, yeah, you just don't want to be in that situation, errm... but, yeah, I can't understand this, errr... the turn of... of people's attitudes towards them, some being really quite nasty, unfounded and... and wrong, I think.
Q: Have the newspapers got it right in terms of... of where they were that evening, I mean, the distance from the... the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?
SM: Well, yeah, as the crow flies, errm... they're probably about right with the 50 yards but, in actual fact, you do have to... it's walled off, in a walled area - about six foot of wall - so you have to actually have to go through a little, errm... entrance building, out onto the road and then round to their apartment.
Q: And line of sight, is there any?
SM: Difficult... they wouldn't have had vision of the whole of their, errm... errr... balcony, they would only have had the top of it from... from where they were sitting, because of the wall and because of the flowers on top of the wall.
Q: How do you feel about the... the criticism of the McCann family for leaving the children?
SM: Harsh... very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we've all done something like that, I think, and errm... no, it's... it's just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.
Q: And how do you feel having been, if you like, errm... being swept along with all of this, having been part of this story from the start, being there, at that time when it all happened, I mean, I suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for... for weeks and weeks and weeks?
SM: Yes... yes, we have, we have, errm... and I just can't get my head round it at all. I can't... I can't understand it and I don't... I don't know if it'll ever be resolved, really.
Q: You're off back to... to Portugal soon, I gather, and errm... how do you think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?
SM: Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks, errm... and my husband has actually said for the first time he's going to feel very differently about it, errm... I... I... no, I'm fine about, I'm fine about it, errm... but, yeah, it’s a shame, it's kind of tainted what is a lovely... lovely spot.
************
Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine
05/05/2007 - 15:05:45
A British couple on holiday in the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted told today how frantic staff knocked on the doors of holidaymakers to get them involved in a search for the missing girl.
Paul Moyes, 58, who is on holiday with his wife, Susan, said: “At 11.30pm there was a knock on the door. I went out in my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman there saying that a child had been abducted and could we help with the search. Everybody got involved.”
The couple said the drama unfolded after what they described as “a fabulous day” in the Praia Da Luz resort.
It was as the couple were sleeping that three-year-old Madeleine was snatched from her parents’ holiday apartment below.
Mrs Moyes, 58, from Middlewich, Cheshire, told how they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening out.
“We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked to Paul that there were so many people in there eating and drinking – ’what a fabulous day’.”
Among those dining in the tapas bar opposite their apartment were Madeleine’s parents, Gerry and Kate, who were making regular trips back to their own rooms to check on their children.
Mr Moyes said: “I felt quite shattered, to be quite frank. The people were themselves extremely sad and it was quite sad for everybody.
“We were quite emotionally shattered, seeing the family that distressed.”
He said that among those who joined the search were many off-duty police in plain clothes who had been called in to help.
Mrs Moyes said: “Walking around you would see individual men, they were police but you wouldn’t know because they were in casual clothes.”
The couple said they remained on the search until 4am on Friday morning.
Mr Moyes described the resort as idyllic and safe. His wife added: “It is paradise.”
Edited
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The Moyes never said they saw anyone enter the apartment (unless their statement is one of the many that appear to have been removed from the file).
There is nothing of interest about the Moyes that can be located on a Google search so ewe will never know who were the couple seen entering the McCann's apartment on Wednesday night.
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Vitor Martins went inside as well.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
"Inside the room that was indicated as being that of the missing girl, there were two children, babies, who appeared to sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room."
A request was made to the OC services director for the family to be re-allocated and accordingly the babies were taken out of the room, so that the site could be searched.
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In DONAL MACINTYRE's thesis he proposed that the abductors entered the apartment twice. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/128671/Madeleine-I-know-how-she-was-taken
"After spending a week on the ground investigating the case and the methods used by the kidnappers, I can only conclude that they must have entered the apartment to carry out a rehearsal, because they were working to an incredibly tight schedule.
The three-minute time frame they allowed themselves left no margin for error.
But even though they did their homework with meticulous care, they still came within seconds of capture.
....."
He certainly writes his story in a dramatic fashion and it is worth a read.
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In this video Gerry lists the people who had been into the kids' bedroom and Silvia Batista "the translator" is on the list. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy2izgvPp8c
This is confirmed in Silvia's statement
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"-- The deponent recalls further that she entered the bedroom where Madeleine had been
sleeping. Remembering it now that the door was closed. The interior of the room was dark. The
external blinds were down, light entering [the room] only through the holes in them. The windows
were shut and the curtains were slightly open. Gerry accompanied her on this visit, also with GNR
officers and he said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still
sleeping there, which the deponent noticed to be true. Gerry stated that when he he was told about
Madeleine's disappearance he had found there the window and the blinds open, and the curtains
fluttering [as in the wind]. The deponent recalls that there were beds in the middle of the room and
that those being used by the babies were aligned [with each other] and therefore she thought it
strange that someone had taken Madeleine from the bed where she had been sleeping as far as to
the window because from that layout [of the beds] there had been no space to get past. The
deponent opened the wardrobes in the bedroom in order to check if possibly Madeleine wasn't
hidden in there. Then everyone left the bedroom someone having returned to close the door. "
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OMG Silvia has organised an experiment in the kid's bedroom with nearly everyone inside including the GNR officers. The door to the room is shut. OK so what is happening in the other rooms now that there is no chance of seeing what is going on????
What is Emma Knight doing while this experiment is going on? Is this the time she is in the main bedroom with Kate head buried in prayer!
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
"I went to the bedroom where Kate and Mrs Payne were. Kate was still upset, crying and calling Madeleine's name, shouting 'where is she''
She also banged on the headboard. At that moment I went to check on the twins in their room and they were ok."
It is covered from Kate's point of view in 'Madeleine' page 97. onward.
Also mentioned in Peter Mac's book "Kate herself states
p. 74 “He’d [Gerry had] asked Fiona to stay with me. I was in our bedroom, on my knees beside the bed, just praying and praying and praying. . . “ [3.30]
The next paragraph talks of Kate’s “sitting on the bed” whilst Emma Knights from Mark Warner came in, and then goes on to talk about Kate’s being out on the veranda when another woman appeared, and so on."
Kate remembers this person was drunk and smelt of cigarettes and Kate wanted her to go away. Who was this? Sadie always talks of cigarette buts ....
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Quote of something Silvia said to the Times:
"Sylvia Batista (Head of administration at the Ocean Club complex)
'She recalled that the twins were still asleep in their two cots and there was the small, bright pink wool blanket that Madeleine likes to hold when she sleeps. "We walked out quickly so as not to wake up the twins. The parents immediately said, 'She's been kidnapped'," said Batisa.'
Times, 06 May 2007"
Source Gerry McCanns blogs. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id87.htm
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from Matt's 4th May statement
I wonder how Matt worked out so quickly there had not been a burglary? Especially when the window was open and the shutters up.
When one enters a burgled property it is usually immediataly noticeable with possessions strewn around everywhere. When Matt and the other members of the group entered 5a the rooms were quite normal and not disturbed so little wonder no-one suspected that a burglary had taken place.
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When one enters a burgled property it is usually immediataly noticeable with possessions strewn around everywhere. When Matt and the other members of the group entered 5a the rooms were quite normal and not disturbed so little wonder no-one suspected that a burglary had taken place.
I agree a lot of times there would be these features but looking at the definition of Burglary they don't seem to be essential. Google definition:
"burglary
noun
illegal entry of a building with intent to commit a crime, especially theft.
"a two-year sentence for burglary"
synonyms: housebreaking, breaking and entering, breaking in, forced entry, theft, thieving, stealing, robbery, robbing, larceny, thievery, pilfering, pilferage, looting"
It could have been the feature of the OC based burglaries since the burglars may have had keys to leave no break in evidence and very little trace so when the victims became aware something is missing they were unsure about when it was taken.
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This is a mystery!
I have just discovered another person inside the apartment who doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm
"That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations.
So who is the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations?
According to Silvia it was Crosland. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"She is aware of the events that occurred in the Ocean Club resort, having had knowledge of the girl's disappearance, by 22H.30 on 03/05/2007, through a telephone call from the administrator George Robin Crosland."
Does Crosland confirm this? No, he doesn't. In fact his statement cuts across the bows of several other statements.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND-1.htm
" That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic);
. The deponent left toward the local where he arrived at 22H25 and there found John Hill and other functionaries, Silvia Batista, Joao Batista, the former who is employee manager and the latter maintenance; ..."
At 22.25 he meets Silvia Batista already at the OC yet she says it is Crosland who rings her and she arrives later.
Crosland is informed by John Hill at 22.15 yet John Hill asserts he isn't informed till 22.28.
Nothing about these statements support each other. They might be all untrue.
So we are none the wiser who the "OC Administrator" that who seen inside the apartment. John Hill rings Crosland so I'd expect JH to ring Silvia as well, and John does admit going over to the apartment but not inside it.
Well that is a mystery we never worked out who entered the apartment, for Crosland doesn't seem to mention being there either.
" That when he arrived at the Ocean Club, he went to the entry of the pool and the restaurant (Tapas) areas of said establishment, having there come across various individuals in the local, all of which were participating in the search for the lost child, and was made up of guests and other people;. That at around 22H50, local elements of the GNR arrived and took charge of the occurrence, and began to manage and lead the search operations of the child missing in the area;
. That until the GNR arrived at the local it was John Hill who determined what to do;
. The deponent affirms that he stayed next to the entrance of the pool and aforementioned restaurant, where he came across numerous persons, not having, at any point in time, entered in the residence where the missing child and her family had stayed; ...
The OC administrator is possibly Emma Knight or Donna Hill.
Emma says "Statement from: Emma Louise KNIGHT
Occupation: Hotel Manager
Date: 30th April 2008
I am currently an employee of the Mark Warner Holiday Company"
So she can't be call called an "OC administrator".
So does that leave Donna Hill? For she is the Manager over the child minding staff ("head of childcare services") and she was there helping with the production of the Madeleine McCann posters.
We don't have a statement from Donna Hill to cross reference against.
From Processos Vol I
Pages 86 –90
External Activity Report
"Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...) responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company,...."
There are reports of this English woman turning up at the apartment who is totally inebriated and smelling of cigarettes. Who was this?
I found a reference to her in Google Books https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Madeleine+mccann+cigarettes+woman&source=bl&ots=1vHrgDokrd&sig=wTamGea0sClFKXDRyMnvfxrp8Ds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcn4u4qqXRAhUEmZQKHfrvC5k4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=Madeleine%20mccann%20cigarettes%20woman&f=false
"Donna Hill is likely to be requestioned early in the New Year." http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/541742/Madeleine-McCann-detectives-set-to-quiz-key-witnesses-again
I didn't even know Donna Hill had been questioned let alone requestioned.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/madeleine-john-hill/ - some good background information.
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There is no easy explanation for why so many statements are not linking to the next one. The true explanation needs to be found.
I just read this sentence again "So who is the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations?"
For that implies it was not just fortuitous that Silvia was there and could translate but Joao Batista says she was asked to attend by an OC Administrator for the purposes of "translating". It was planned that she be there for a specific purpose.
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This is a mystery!
I have just discovered another person inside the apartment who doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm
"That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations.
So who is the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations?
According to Silvia it was Crosland. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
"She is aware of the events that occurred in the Ocean Club resort, having had knowledge of the girl's disappearance, by 22H.30 on 03/05/2007, through a telephone call from the administrator George Robin Crosland."
Does Crosland confirm this? No, he doesn't. In fact his statement cuts across the bows of several other statements.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBIN_CROSSLAND-1.htm
" That at around 22h15 of 03 May 2007, he was alone in his residence, situated in Lagos, and was contacted by John Hill, Mark Warner manager who works in the Ocean Club establishment and who informed him that a child, a minor, of the feminine sex, who was staying with her family in that resort, had disappeared and that he was going to initiate the 'procedure for missing child' (sic);
. The deponent left toward the local where he arrived at 22H25 and there found John Hill and other functionaries, Silvia Batista, Joao Batista, the former who is employee manager and the latter maintenance; ..."
At 22.25 he meets Silvia Batista already at the OC yet she says it is Crosland who rings her and she arrives later.
Crosland is informed by John Hill at 22.15 yet John Hill asserts he isn't informed till 22.28.
Nothing about these statements support each other. They might be all untrue.
So we are none the wiser who the "OC Administrator" that who seen inside the apartment. John Hill rings Crosland so I'd expect JH to ring Silvia as well, and John does admit going over to the apartment but not inside it.
Well that is a mystery we never worked out who entered the apartment, for Crosland doesn't seem to mention being there either.
" That when he arrived at the Ocean Club, he went to the entry of the pool and the restaurant (Tapas) areas of said establishment, having there come across various individuals in the local, all of which were participating in the search for the lost child, and was made up of guests and other people;. That at around 22H50, local elements of the GNR arrived and took charge of the occurrence, and began to manage and lead the search operations of the child missing in the area;
. That until the GNR arrived at the local it was John Hill who determined what to do;
. The deponent affirms that he stayed next to the entrance of the pool and aforementioned restaurant, where he came across numerous persons, not having, at any point in time, entered in the residence where the missing child and her family had stayed; ...
The OC administrator is possibly Emma Knight or Donna Hill.
Emma says "Statement from: Emma Louise KNIGHT
Occupation: Hotel Manager
Date: 30th April 2008
I am currently an employee of the Mark Warner Holiday Company"
So she can't be call called an "OC administrator".
So does that leave Donna Hill? For she is the Manager over the child minding staff ("head of childcare services") and she was there helping with the production of the Madeleine McCann posters.
We don't have a statement from Donna Hill to cross reference against.
From Processos Vol I
Pages 86 –90
External Activity Report
"Donna Louise Rafferty Hill (contactable by mobile phone number 964...) responsible for the crèche employees belonging to the "MARK WARNER" company,...."
There are reports of this English woman turning up at the apartment who is totally inebriated and smelling of cigarettes. Who was this?
I found a reference to her in Google Books https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Madeleine+mccann+cigarettes+woman&source=bl&ots=1vHrgDokrd&sig=wTamGea0sClFKXDRyMnvfxrp8Ds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcn4u4qqXRAhUEmZQKHfrvC5k4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=Madeleine%20mccann%20cigarettes%20woman&f=false
"Donna Hill is likely to be requestioned early in the New Year." http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/541742/Madeleine-McCann-detectives-set-to-quiz-key-witnesses-again
I didn't even know Donna Hill had been questioned let alone requestioned.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/madeleine-john-hill/ - some good background information.
Your first statement quote was made by Jaõa Batista, who as the clip says is the husband of Silvia Batista. As to the term OC administrator, such terms are routinely slopped about, rather than some highly specific job title.
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Your first statement quote was made by Jaõa Batista, who as the clip says is the husband of Silvia Batista. As to the term OC administrator, such terms are routinely slopped about, rather than some highly specific job title.
I understood that, but I then tried to work out who that was. The only administrator who seems to be involved in the proceedings that is not asked for a statement is Donna Hill. Maybe her statement is one of the many that wasn't released on the DVD.
One would that must be the case for they say she was going to be "reinterviewed".
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I understood that, but I then tried to work out who that was. The only administrator who seems to be involved in the proceedings that is not asked for a statement is Donna Hill. Maybe her statement is one of the many that wasn't released on the DVD.
One would that must be the case for they say she was going to be "reinterviewed".
What?
You tried to work out who João Batista was when his statement is that Silvia Batista is his wife?
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What?
You tried to work out who João Batista was when his statement is that Silvia Batista is his wife?
I missed the word think in the sentence "One would <think> that must be the case for they say she was going to be "reinterviewed"."
I know who João Batista is but he is aware of an Ocean Club Administrator in the McCann's apartment. Well that is how I read it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm
"Whilst he was at the resort he did not see anything unusual.
That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
So who did the GNR remove from the room?
1. the girl's parents,
2. their friends,
3. the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations).
So he can't have been talking about himself or his wife, so who is the "OC Administrator" he is talking about?
That "OC Administrator" was the one who called his wife. She says it was Crosland who called her but it was John Hill that rang Crosland. Crosland denies going into the 5A apartment. So it can't have been Robin Crosland.
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I missed the word think in the sentence "One would <think> that must be the case for they say she was going to be "reinterviewed"."
I know who João Batista is but he is aware of an Ocean Club Administrator in the McCann's apartment. Well that is how I read it.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm
"Whilst he was at the resort he did not see anything unusual.
That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
So who did the GNR remove from the room?
1. the girl's parents,
2. their friends,
3. the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations).
So he can't have been talking about himself or his wife, so who is the "OC Administrator" he is talking about?
That "OC Administrator" was the one who called his wife. She says it was Crosland who called her but it was John Hill that rang Crosland. Crosland denies going into the 5A apartment. So it can't have been Robin Crosland.
"whom he supposed were" i.e. supposition.
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From the original Portuguese statement
"que tem cohecimento da situacao que occureu no Ocean Club, referente ao desparecimeto da crianca, tendo cido informado no propria dia, pelas 2230hrs atraves da telefone pelo Administador do Ocean Club, o qual havia contactado com a sua esposa, Sra. Silvia Batista.... "
Translates to
"Which is aware of the situation that occured in the Ocean Club, referring to the disappearance of the child, having been informed on the same day, at 2230hrs on the telephone by the Manager of the Ocean Club, which had contacted his wife Sra. Silvia Batista......"
which makes absolute sense.
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From the original Portuguese statement
"que tem cohecimento da situacao que occureu no Ocean Club, referente ao desparecimeto da crianca, tendo cido informado no propria dia, pelas 2230hrs atraves da telefone pelo Administador do Ocean Club, o qual havia contactado com a sua esposa, Sra. Silvia Batista.... "
Translates to
"Which is aware of the situation that occurred in the Ocean Club, referring to the disappearance of the child, having been informed on the same day, at 22.30hrs on the telephone by the Manager of the Ocean Club, which had contacted his wife Sra. Silvia Batista......"
which makes absolute sense.
Well that sentence/paragraph makes perfect sense except that the name of the " Manager of the Ocean Club" is not mentioned. Note: Generally it is John Hill who referred to as the " Manager of the Ocean Club".
But the bit that is worrying me the most are the next three paragraphs of Joao's statement. In particular the third one that translates to something like "That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
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"whom he supposed were" i.e. supposition.
He could have supposition about who "the friends" were but not about "the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations)."
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Note I have amended my posts above to make them more correct.
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He could have supposition about who "the friends" were but not about "the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations)."
I am trying to see if there is a better translation of line 34 -37 of the page http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_541.jpg
for I typed a section of it into Google translate and got a completely different meaning.
"e o administrador do ocean club tendo posteriormente a sua esposa Sra. Silvia Batista sido chamada ao local para efectuar a tradução."
became "And the administrator of the ocean club after having his wife Mrs. Silvia Batista been called to the place to carry out the translation." Which doesn't really make sense either. So I'm trying to get a Portuguese speaker to look at the text.
The translation officially is ""the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations)."
or without brackets "the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
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I am trying to see if there is a better translation of line 34 -37 of the page http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_541.jpg
for I typed a section of it into Google translate and got a completely different meaning.
"e o administrador do ocean club tendo posteriormente a sua esposa Sra. Silvia Batista sido chamada ao local para efectuar a tradução."
became "And the administrator of the ocean club after having his wife Mrs. Silvia Batista been called to the place to carry out the translation." Which doesn't really make sense either. So I'm trying to get a Portuguese speaker to look at the text.
The translation officially is ""the OC Administrator (who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations)."
or without brackets "the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
You must remember it is Joao who is making the statement so the word "his" can be interpreted in 2 ways.
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You must remember it is Joao who is making the statement so the word "his" can be interpreted in 2 ways.
My Portuguese speaking friend has replied with a translation that puts a new light on what is being said by Joao.
"During the time that he remained in the village in search of the missing child, he did not notice anything abnormal or different, nor was he commented on any suspicious situation. (Lines 32 and 33)
The dwelling where the child disappeared and the surrounding area was isolated after the arrival of the GNR, and inside the house some people remained, supposing to be the parents of the child, some friends, and the Administrator of the Ocean Club, Having later his wife Ms. Silvia Batista been called to the place to do the translation. (Lines 34 to 37)"
So I picture that as being Emma Knights (the Administrator of the Ocean Club) later called Joao's wife (Silvia Batista) to the place to do the translations.
The area was isolated but there remained people within the cordoned area "the parents of the child, some friends, and the Administrator of the Ocean Club" and later SB because she was called in.
Originally the translation was: "That the room from which the girl disappeared was sealed off after the arrival of the GNR, as there were some persons inside the room, whom he supposed were the girl's parents, their friends, the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations."
So the difference for me is that "the OC Administrator, who had called his wife, Silvia Batista, to come to the site to help with translations." may or may not be the same person who call Sylvia earlier when she was in Lagos.
Compare that with:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BATISTA.htm translations of lies 23 -25.
"That he knows about the situation in the OC relating to the disappearance of the little girl, having been informed on the same day, at about 22.30 by phone by the OC administrator, who had contacted his wife, Silvia Batista."
Is the "the OC administrator" in both cases the same?
I wouldn't say I am fully convinced of the new interpretation yet. Can you see any other way of looking at it?
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You must remember it is Joao who is making the statement so the word "his" can be interpreted in 2 ways.
Could you explain what you mean please?
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In Kate's book only Emma Knights and Silvia Batista are the two OC Administrators over in the apartment, so the word his can only apply to Joao Batista with Silvia Batista being his wife. What other situation could the word "his" mean anything else?
Emma Knights may have rung Silvia to act as an interpreter, I don't see any problem with that except what time was that?
Emma Knights admits speaking with John Hill.
"The search lasted for about 10 minutes and then we returned. At that moment John asked me to go to the apartment the girl had disappeared from and, on behalf of Mark Warner, provide all the help the family might need."
Would that have been a phonecall.
"At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'."
If that part of the search lasted 10 minutes and John is informed at 10:28 by Lyndsey that Madeleine wasn't immediately found John would have rung Emma after this. Therefore it could be perfectly possible for Emma to ring Silvia just after 10:30 PM.
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In the missing pages from the DVD files... http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
"112 OC workers were questioned, amongst them some of English nationality and with the use of interpreters.
In addition, formal questioning was made of English employees most involved, from the MW company -?15 child care workers and two tennis instructors. Also eleven informal questionings with employees who carry out other types of activity. In total, 28 persons. Due to their absence, three individuals were not questioned, Euan Crosby, Steven Jackson and Emma Knights respectively." Yet Emma Knight was interviewed before the file was released.
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Does anyone mention Emma Knight in their statements?
Even John Hill doesn't mention Emma Knights!
I see the Emma Knight statement was sourced from the Leicestershire Police Force.
"On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'." Did any of these mention her.
Lindsay, Amy doesn't mention her. Do the McCanns mention her?
In a file titled "LIST OF PEOPLE MCCANN'S WANTED INTERVIEWED" Emma Knight is first mentioned as a potential witness.
"7 - But, at that time, the direction of the investigation was apparently different, [that being] the reason why some of these witnesses were not heard on the matters mentioned above, currently considered relevant to the prosecution of the investigation and who already were, furthermore, the object of actual proceedings, namely the questioning and the interrogations of the applicants.
We submit that, their testimony [being] essential to the discovery of the truth, and given that the witnesses designated above actually live in the United Kingdom, where they will be found, (except Dan Smith and Emma Knights who will be found in Portugal), it is requested further, under Arts. 229 and following of CPP, 145 and following of Law 14-4/99 of 31 August (Law of International Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) and 3 and following of the European Convention on Mutual Legal Support in Criminal Matters, that a Rogatory Letter be expedited for them to be heard in the United Kingdom.
They ask that the request be granted
• The Advocates
CARLOS PINTO DE ABREU
ROGERIO ALVES"
There must be some significance to the fact that no one mentions Emma Knight, not even Gerry.
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Did Euan Crosby, Steven Jackson go into the apartment also?
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I'm a bit surprised that no one replied to my study on Emma Knight.
Two further things that are odd about Emma Knight are:
2. Her apparent absence from the investigation (and hence the excuse she is not interviewed). OK it is possible she disappeared so suddenly and thoroughly that no one knew where she was, days after Madeleine went missing.
You would think that in itself would make alarm bells ring.
3. The way her statement starts at and with events that are after 10:00 PM is unsatisfactory and in some ways is similar in that respect to John Hill's statement.
We need to know what these two were doing prior to 9:00 PM and then what happened during the hour from 9:00 - 10:00 that night for that is the time when the "abduction" was perpetrated.
The work produced on Silvia Batista and Emma Knight in the last few days has been notified to Operation Grange.
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I'm a bit surprised that no one replied to my study on Emma Knight.
Two further things that are odd about Emma Knight are:
2. Her apparent absence from the investigation (and hence the excuse she is not interviewed). OK it is possible she disappeared so suddenly and thoroughly that no one knew where she was, days after Madeleine went missing.
You would think that in itself would make alarm bells ring.
3. The way her statement starts at and with events that are after 10:00 PM is unsatisfactory and in some ways is similar in that respect to John Hill's statement.
We need to know what these two were doing prior to 9:00 PM and then what happened during the hour from 9:00 - 10:00 that night for that is the time when the "abduction" was perpetrated.
The work produced on Silvia Batista and Emma Knight in the last few days has been notified to Operation Grange.
There are plenty of photos of Emma Knight and John Hill at the OC after the 3rd May so how come she is said to be absent?
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/e_l_knight.jpg)
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Does this, the full request, help you?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic170.html
The title of rogatory interview tends to suggest that there had been an original interview which was withheld from the public files.
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Does this, the full request, help you?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic170.html
The title of rogatory interview tends to suggest that there had been an original interview which was withheld from the public files.
"Group 3 (people who saw and/or spoke with Kate and Gerry at the time they noticed Madeleine's disappearance):
....
• Emma Knights, with address at ...> (Ocean Club, c / o Mark Warner) (3,519,614 ####)
....."
"6 - It is certain that some of these witnesses have already been heard, at least once, in the investigation.
7 - But, at that time, the direction of the investigation was apparently different, [that being] the reason why some of these witnesses were not heard on the matters mentioned above, currently considered relevant to the prosecution of the investigation and who already were, furthermore, the object of actual proceedings, namely the questioning and the interrogations of the applicants.
We submit that, their testimony [being] essential to the discovery of the truth, and given that the witnesses designated above actually live in the United Kingdom, where they will be found, (except Dan Smith and Emma Knights who will be found in Portugal), it is requested further, under Arts. 229 and following of CPP, 145 and following of Law 14-4/99 of 31 August (Law of International Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) and 3 and following of the European Convention on Mutual Legal Support in Criminal Matters, that a Rogatory Letter be expedited for them to be heard in the United Kingdom. "
It is possible she had been spoken to.
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"Group 3 (people who saw and/or spoke with Kate and Gerry at the time they noticed Madeleine's disappearance):
....
• Emma Knights, with address at ...> (Ocean Club, c / o Mark Warner) (3,519,614 ####)
....."
"6 - It is certain that some of these witnesses have already been heard, at least once, in the investigation.
7 - But, at that time, the direction of the investigation was apparently different, [that being] the reason why some of these witnesses were not heard on the matters mentioned above, currently considered relevant to the prosecution of the investigation and who already were, furthermore, the object of actual proceedings, namely the questioning and the interrogations of the applicants.
We submit that, their testimony [being] essential to the discovery of the truth, and given that the witnesses designated above actually live in the United Kingdom, where they will be found, (except Dan Smith and Emma Knights who will be found in Portugal), it is requested further, under Arts. 229 and following of CPP, 145 and following of Law 14-4/99 of 31 August (Law of International Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) and 3 and following of the European Convention on Mutual Legal Support in Criminal Matters, that a Rogatory Letter be expedited for them to be heard in the United Kingdom. "
It is possible she had been spoken to.
It certainly is. There is a PJ team beavering away, so we are led to believe. I'm sure they are not just examining documents.
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It certainly is. There is a PJ team beavering away, so we are led to believe. I'm sure they are not just examining documents.
So why do they virtually keep Emma Knights out of the picture? Why does no one mention her being in the apartment?
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So why do they virtually keep Emma Knights out of the picture? Why does no one mention her being in the apartment?
The PJ are saying nothing about their current investigations.
They don't even seem to be having words put in their mouths by sources close to the investigation.
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The PJ are saying nothing about their current investigations.
They don't even seem to be having words put in their mouths by sources close to the investigation.
A lull before the storm?
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I would like to think so.
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I would like to think so.
What do you envision will happen?
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What do you envision will happen?
Very difficult to know.
OG are down to their last bunch of suspects and the last of their funding, so would like to wind this up while retaining some credibility. Given their apparent lack of success, this is likely to be an archiving of the case with no evidence of what actually happened. Anything else will require proper evidence, not beliefs or professional opinions.
PJ may be more up front as regards their prime suspects but will claim lack of evidence as a reason for not pursuing through the courts.
A successful prosecution of anybody is unlikely.
This is just my opinion and is subject to as much error as anyone elses ?{)(**
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Very difficult to know.
OG are down to their last bunch of suspects and the last of their funding, so would like to wind this up while retaining some credibility. Given their apparent lack of success, this is likely to be an archiving of the case with no evidence of what actually happened. Anything else will require proper evidence, not beliefs or professional opinions.
PJ may be more up front as regards their prime suspects but will claim lack of evidence as a reason for not pursuing through the courts.
A successful prosecution of anybody is unlikely.
This is just my opinion and is subject to as much error as anyone elses ?{)(**
If every one closed the case, would that allow the "kidnapper" to own up without fear of prosecution?
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I can't see why anyone would want to do that.
Without the hint of a confession in 10 years, it's likely to remain that way, unless we have a dramatic deathbed scene.
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I can't see why anyone would want to do that.
Without the hint of a confession in 10 years, it's likely to remain that way, unless we have a dramatic deathbed scene.
Is there a time limit to the crime, like a statute of limitation for kidnapping?
Google "statute of limitation": "Not all crimes are governed by statutes of limitation. Murder, for example, has none. In some states sex offenses with minors, crimes of violence, kidnapping, arson, and forgery have no statutes of limitation."
So kidnapping in Portugal - is there a statute of limitation?