Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 07:53:53 PM
Title: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 07:53:53 PM
We can't rule out that the window was opened and shutters were raised in an attempted burglary. Maybe Gerry disturbed him and he left without entering. That could be a solution! For how did Gerry see Madeleine if the room was dark? Gerry didn't turn the lights on did he? So where is the light coming from to admire his kids? So were the shutters raised but he hadn't clicked that the room was lit up more than it should be if the shutters were down. Matt had noticed the room brighter than his apartment but he failed to really question why. Is this possible? If there was enough light for Gerry why did Matt and Kate still have trouble seeing Madeleine?
It appears Operation Grange was keen on the idea of a botched burglary, but at what stage did it go wrong? Here I'm proposing the burglary only proceeded as far as opening the window and raising the shutters at which point it was abandoned due to being too risky. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001976/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapped-European-child-trafficking-ring-fear-British-Portuguese-police-forces-say-focusing-theory.html#ixzz4Tb3UcBw9
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: jassi on December 22, 2016, 08:10:50 PM
We can't rule out that the window was opened and shutters were raised in an attempted burglary. Maybe Gerry disturbed him and he left without entering. That could be a solution! For how did Gerry see Madeleine if the room was dark? Gerry didn't turn the lights on did he? So where is the light coming from to admire his kids? So were the shutters raised but he hadn't clicked that the room was lit up more than it should be if the shutters were down. Matt had noticed the room brighter than his apartment but he failed to really question why. Is this possible? If there was enough light for Gerry why did Matt and Kate still have trouble seeing Madeleine?
It appears Operation Grange was keen on the idea of a botched burglary, but at what stage did it go wrong? Here I'm proposing the burglary only proceeded as far as opening the window and raising the shutters at which point it was abandoned due to being too risky. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001976/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapped-European-child-trafficking-ring-fear-British-Portuguese-police-forces-say-focusing-theory.html#ixzz4Tb3UcBw9
Are they still following that line, or has it now been abandoned like other 'leads' ?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
Are they still following that line, or has it now been abandoned like other 'leads' ?
I think the latest funding of OG was for something to do with kidnapping gangs ...
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 08:24:18 PM
So when Amaral and Co. thought the crime scene was staged, if they included the open window and shutters up in that concept, we now propose that "the open window and shutters up" was just part of the botched burglary and the Madeleine missing part still remains unexplained.
Generally there is talk of moving the sofa as a sign of staging, something I haven't seen being discussed much.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 08:57:24 PM
The shutters were up when Kate did her check but in various interviews etc she recounts how difficult it was to see Madeleine in her bed. Gerry on the other hand seems to see her and the cuddle cat etc so did he go right into the room? Whereas Matt says he didn't go into the room and says he couldn't see Madeleine yet must have been in a similar location to Kate and yet she could see the bed at least.
Do those three situations become scientifically explainable? They have me perplexed at the moment.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 22, 2016, 09:21:34 PM
The shutters were up when Kate did her check but in various interviews etc she recounts how difficult it was to see Madeleine in her bed. Gerry on the other hand seems o see her and the cuddle cat etc so did he go right into the room. Whereas Matt says he didn't go into the room and says he couldn't see Madeleine yet must have been in a similar location to Kate and yet she could see the bed at least.
Do those three situations become scientifically explainable? They have me perplexed at the moment.
No, we don't know the shutters were up.
Never independently verified.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 22, 2016, 09:45:09 PM
Are they still following that line, or has it now been abandoned like other 'leads' ?
That depends on which source you wish to believe ! From the link posted by Alfie, above: "Portuguese police say they are 'completely in tune' with British detectives following a tip that a gang of European traffickers snatched Madeleine McCann.
Policia Judiciaria bosses say their relationship with the Scotland Yard team given fresh cash to investigate the new lead is 'easy and fluid.'
The comments, made by a Lisbon-based senior officer, will give missing Madeleine's parents fresh hope of answers to the near ten-year-old mystery.
The PJ made no secret of their rejection of the theory championed by former Operation Grange chief Andy Redwood about Madeleine being kidnapped from her Algarve holiday flat by a gang of thieves during a bungled burglary in May, 2007".
"Before this weekend's trafficking revelations, it was thought the botched burglary claims formed the final line of inquiry.
But Portugal's Attorney General's office confirmed today the last of six 'letters of request' Portuguese police based in the Algarve city of Faro had been asked to work on, was completed and sent back on October 25.
Officers in Faro had been expecting to receive a new letter asking them to arrange a fresh interrogation of four locals questioned as 'arguidos' or official suspects in July 2014 as part of the botched burglary theory - but so far none has been forthcoming".
Read all about it in Alfie's* link Puis faites vos jeux
*Was it Alfie's link originally on another thread ?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 10:28:54 PM
Is Amy Tierney not an independent witness? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling." Three referrals to the shutters being up.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 10:35:16 PM
...... The PJ made no secret of their rejection of the theory championed by former Operation Grange chief Andy Redwood about Madeleine being kidnapped from her Algarve holiday flat by a gang of thieves during a bungled burglary in May, 2007". ......
Well lets explore another theory. The Burglars left the shutters up and the window open, and had nothing to do with taking Madeleine. Maybe other than waking her up! I think those shutters make a terrible racket when being raised.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 22, 2016, 10:50:07 PM
Well lets explore another theory. The Burglars left the shutters up and the window open, and had nothing to do with taking Madeleine. Maybe other than waking her up! I think those shutters make a terrible racket when being raised.
1.Which burglars would they be? 2. "You do the thinking Butch that's what your good at". Likely it was opening the window and firtling around trying to find the CDA to raise the shutter that was not so quiet.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 10:57:27 PM
1.Which burglars would they be? 2. "You do the thinking Butch that's what your good at". Likely it was opening the window and firtling around trying to find the CDA to raise the shutter that was not so quiet.
Burglars or would be burglars - could be the same group as the PJ/OG identified and made arguidos. Don't bother answering unless you are willing to participate. CDA what does that mean?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 22, 2016, 11:17:54 PM
Burglars or would be burglars - could be the same group as the PJ/OG identified and made arguidos. Don't bother answering unless you are willing to participate. CDA what does that mean?
Y'all turned into a mod bo? If you don't know what CDA means you cannot possibly understand how the shutters operate which leaves you severely disadvantaged.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
Y'all turned into a mod bo? If you don't know what CDA means you cannot possibly understand how the shutters operate which leaves you severely disadvantaged.
I know how they operate but the abbreviation is new to me.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2016, 11:45:54 PM
Silvia checks out how dark the kid's bedroom is "This is confirmed in Silvia's statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm "-- The deponent recalls further that she entered the bedroom where Madeleine had been sleeping. Remembering it now that the door was closed. The interior of the room was dark. The external blinds were down, light entering [the room] only through the holes in them. The windows were shut and the curtains were slightly open. Gerry accompanied her on this visit, also with GNR officers and he said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still sleeping there, which the deponent noticed to be true. Gerry stated that when he he was told about Madeleine's disappearance he had found there the window and the blinds open, and the curtains fluttering [as in the wind]. "
So with the exterior blinds down and the curtains drawn the room is dark when the door is closed. So for Gerry to see Madeleine the door would need to be open and possibly the shutters up.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2016, 12:04:22 AM
Is Amy Tierney not an independent witness? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm "She confirms that, on the night of the disappearance she was on duty and immediately went to the bedroom to see if the girl was hiding. She saw that the shutter was raised and that the window was partially open. It was then that she began to look in the wardrobes to see if the girl was hiding.
The first idea that occurred to her was that the girl could have left by her own means, however after checking that the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were, these facts led her to think that Madeleine could have been taken by someone.
However there was a bed against the window, which could have enabled the girl to climb up onto it and then up to the window, the witness thinks it would not be possible as she would not be able to open the shutters and even if she had done so she would have fallen outside as the window is too high for a child of that age to be able to descend without falling." Three referrals to the shutters being up.
After 10 pm.
Irrelevant.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 12:08:20 AM
We can't rule out that the window was opened and shutters were raised in an attempted burglary. Maybe Gerry disturbed him and he left without entering. That could be a solution! For how did Gerry see Madeleine if the room was dark? Gerry didn't turn the lights on did he? So where is the light coming from to admire his kids? So were the shutters raised but he hadn't clicked that the room was lit up more than it should be if the shutters were down. Matt had noticed the room brighter than his apartment but he failed to really question why. Is this possible? If there was enough light for Gerry why did Matt and Kate still have trouble seeing Madeleine?
It appears Operation Grange was keen on the idea of a botched burglary, but at what stage did it go wrong? Here I'm proposing the burglary only proceeded as far as opening the window and raising the shutters at which point it was abandoned due to being too risky. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001976/Madeleine-McCann-kidnapped-European-child-trafficking-ring-fear-British-Portuguese-police-forces-say-focusing-theory.html#ixzz4Tb3UcBw9
When he opened the door wouldn't the curtains have sucked into the room a little if the window was open?
And even if it was the lull before the storm and the curtains were not affected by a gust as when Kate opened the door, I think he would have noticed the greater light within the room if the shutters were raised.
Based upon these two observations it seems unlikely that the window was open and the shutters raised.
The light by which he saw Madeleine would have come thru the gap in the door from the lamp left on in the sitting room, which gave a little light in the childrens bedroom ... and from the sparce light thru the shutter holes imo
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: sadie on December 23, 2016, 01:40:28 AM
1.Which burglars would they be? 2. "You do the thinking Butch that's what your good at". Likely it was opening the window and firtling around trying to find the CDA to raise the shutter that was not so quiet.
Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness. Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.
The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was. And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 02:23:36 AM
Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness. Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.
The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was. And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound
Absolutely possible, but at times it doesn't take much to wake a kid up.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 02:26:30 AM
When he opened the door wouldn't the curtains have sucked into the room a little if the window was open?
And even if it was the lull before the storm and the curtains were not affected by a gust as when Kate opened the door, I think he would have noticed the greater light within the room if the shutters were raised.
Based upon these two observations it seems unlikely that the window was open and the shutters raised.
The light by which he saw Madeleine would have come thru the gap in the door from the lamp left on in the sitting room, which gave a little light in the childrens bedroom ... and from the sparce light thru the shutter holes imo
Well this is one aspect that could be assessed in a reconstruction. How do you get enough light in the room to see Madeleine as Gerry says he did? Did he go into the room or was he just standing by the door?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2016, 04:49:39 AM
Don't talk to me like that. Kate's alert is at 10:00. Are you wanting someone to confirm the shutters were up before Kate's check? Be sensible.
This has been dealt with before.
There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann went to the apartment.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 05:07:05 AM
Is it possible to find out how far into the room Gerry went? 'Kate in her book says "seeing no little body curled up in our bed, he went over to look in on the children."
From Peter Mac's book to save me typing the text "But a short time later p. 70 (p. 92 in my book) “Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch . . . Madeleine was lying there, on her left-hand side, her legs under the covers, in exactly the same position as we'd left her." [3]
Now Madeleine is reported to be on top of the bed, with only her legs covered, and it is said that this is how she had been left." Then Gerry pulls the door nearly closed again.
During this visit Gerry says he had a "proud father moment". How close do you have to be to have one of those? From an interview on YT "“So I actually came in and Madeleine was just at the top of the bed here where I’d left her lying, and the covers were folded down and she had her cuddle cat and blanky were just by her head, and it’s terrible because I, erm had one of those really proud father moments where I just thought, I just thought, you know – 'You’re absolutely beautiful and I love you. And I just paused for a minute, and then I just pulled the door closed again just to about there, and I felt incredibly proud standing there and having three beautiful children.
Well, that is, I think, the most ironic thing of the LOT that that momentary pause that I had at the door, that’s exactly what I felt like.” Thanks to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXtBWNCFt7U and http://l-azzeri-lies-in-the-sun.com/Moments.html for the text. From what Kate and Gerry say he definitely went into the kids bedroom.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 05:14:11 AM
There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann went to the apartment.
Do you mean Kate McCann? OK but is that important? Are you saying she may have opened the window and raised the shutters herself. That is possible but the point I'm making is that 2 other witnesses go into the room where there is more light that there should be. From that we can predict that the window was opened and shutters were raised before Gerry's check.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2016, 05:20:19 AM
Do you mean Kate McCann? OK but is that important? Are you saying she may have opened the window and raised the shutters herself. That is possible but the point I'm making is that 2 other witnesses go into the room where there is more light that there should be. From that we can predict that the window was opened and shutters were raised before Gerry's check.
Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.
More light than there should be ????
Meaningless drivel.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 05:34:43 AM
Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.
More light than there should be ????
Meaningless drivel.
Gerry states 10/05/2007 "----- He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. " So that is the standard so was all the light coming from the lounge? "Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced."
It is something that can be checked.
If there was "independent verification the window was open before McCann got there" I would suggest they were the burglars.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 05:44:27 AM
Gerry states 10/05/2007 "---- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge."
So there was an assessment made at that time of Gerry's check the shutters were not up, but there was light coming into the bedroom from the lounge when the kid's bedroom door was fully open.
The two things Gerry did differently was to fully enter the room and to have the door wide open to allow light to flood the room.
That is what I was trying to determine.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2016, 07:02:49 AM
Gerry states 10/05/2007 "----- He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. " So that is the standard so was all the light coming from the lounge? "Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced."
It is something that can be checked.
If there was "independent verification the window was open before McCann got there" I would suggest they were the burglars.
There was no independent verification, and you know it, so will I leave you to your fantasies.
As should be aware by now, I don't believe the Mccanns version of events.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2016, 08:00:49 AM
"Again, for the last time. There is no independent verification the window was open before McCann got there.
More light than there should be ????
Meaningless drivel."
Is it reasonable to expect independent verification of every claim? What sort of independent person would be around the back of the McCann's apartment between 9:00 and 10:00 PM at night?
If Matt or Russell said when they saw it at 9:30 the shutters were down what difference would that make? Either it would be claimed that they are not independent or that the shutters must have been open after their observation. There is no way to satisfy this objection unless there were two people doing the check together and even then would they be independent. It is an impossible objection therefore totally unreasonable to expect anyone to deliver. I think we can all question whether Kate is telling us the truth but if there is no proof to the contrary and she has made a statement it would be up to Stephen to prove she is lying otherwise remain sceptical but don't expect someone else to prove it is true.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Eleanor on December 23, 2016, 08:31:57 AM
Any further posts containing insults will be removed in full.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 23, 2016, 12:39:17 PM
Just because we have seen a video showing the shutter being raised, doesn't mean that the sound effects are genuine in their loudness or quietness. Levels of sound can easily be adjusted to agree with someones agenda, if you know what I mean.
The truth of the matter is that we dont just KNOW how noisy the shutter was. And if it was initially manually raised from the outside then there was a glazed window and curtains to help deaden the sound
I didn't say anything about how noisy or otherwise the shutter operation was. My views on the video clips showing the operation of the shutters, put up on here, are well recorded.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: G-Unit on December 23, 2016, 03:40:26 PM
I didn't say anything about how noisy or otherwise the shutter operation was. My views on the video clips showing the operation of the shutters, put up on here, are well recorded.
They were noisy when being closed;
We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Eleanor on December 23, 2016, 04:02:04 PM
We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
Not around here, they don't. Make a noise, that is. And most people have them these days. What a clatter that would be.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: faithlilly on December 23, 2016, 11:54:59 PM
In Heriberto's demonstration they seemed rather noisy. If you say they are quiet, it would depend how much caution the "burglar" was. They might have known there were kids in the apartment and they wouldn't want crying kids to slow them down so I'd imagine they took care not to disturb the kids.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 07:23:34 AM
In a type of reconstruction video "Madeleine McCann - Cutting Edge Show 070509 - Tapas 9" https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=433 Gerry demonstrates his check of Madeleine and without hesitation he turns the light on. Now that was a surprise but it certainly explains why he was able to see Madeleine so much better than the other two. OK we'll have to find out why he would turn on the lights later. But HE TURNED ON THE LIGHTS! And turns them off as he leaves. I think this is very significant for something must have been more important than keeping the kids asleep when you turn on the lights they are very likely to wake up and it puts to rest any idea that there may have been someone hiding behind the door in the bedroom.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: faithlilly on December 24, 2016, 10:34:04 AM
Why would Paul Gordon say they were noisy if they weren't? What would he have to gain?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 10:35:56 AM
Contrast Gerry's visit with Kate's later. From Peter Mac's E book for the text "In 2008 Kate McCann gave an interview in which she described graphically what happened when she entered the apartment for her check, and discovered Madeleine to be missing.
“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it. I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed, and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children. I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . . I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which is here, and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking is that, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding and I couldn't quite make her out, and it sounds really stupid now, but at the time I was just thinking I didn’t want to put the light on because I didn't want to wake them, and literally as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn, [demonstrates with both forearms together] that were closed, “wheesh’ like a gust of wind kind of blew them open. And cuddle cat was still there, and the pink blanket was still there. I knew straight away that, err, she’d been . . . taken, yer know.” I think that just about confirms the main difference is one turned the light on and the other didn't, but also didn't need to because of the extra light coming through the curtain because the shutters were up.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
Why would Paul Gordon say they were noisy if they weren't? What would he have to gain?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm 36 to 38 Witness statement of Paul Anthony Gordon (former holidaymaker in Apartment 5 A) 2008.04.24 "The doors, windows and shutters were in perfect working order. There was no sign of the doors, windows and blinds ever having been broken into, but also there was no need to examine [them]. The front door had a double lock that was difficult to lock, but we managed to do it. The patio door did not lock from the outside, only from the inside of the apartment and for that reason when the family left [went out] together we always used the front door.
We used to open the blinds during the day, returning to close them at night. When the blinds were [being] closed they would make much noise."
You would think Eleanor is right. I'd say they were designed to be quiet but from what we read the ones in 5A were noisy. So maybe they just needed a bit of CRC.
Thanks Faithlilly.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: G-Unit on December 24, 2016, 11:03:04 AM
Contrast Gerry's visit with Kate's later. From Peter Mac's E book for the text "In 2008 Kate McCann gave an interview in which she described graphically what happened when she entered the apartment for her check, and discovered Madeleine to be missing.
“I did my check about ten o’clock and went in through the sliding patio doors, and I just stood actually, and I thought, uh, all quiet. And to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it. I went to close it to about here, and then as I got to here, it suddenly . . . slammed, and as I opened it, it was then, that I just thought I’ll just look at the children. I see Sean and Amelie in the cot . . . . I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which is here, and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking is that, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding and I couldn't quite make her out, and it sounds really stupid now, but at the time I was just thinking I didn’t want to put the light on because I didn't want to wake them, and literally as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn, [demonstrates with both forearms together] that were closed, “wheesh’ like a gust of wind kind of blew them open. And cuddle cat was still there, and the pink blanket was still there. I knew straight away that, err, she’d been . . . taken, yer know.” I think that just about confirms the main difference is one turned the light on and the other didn't, but also didn't need to because of the extra light coming through the curtain because the shutters were up.
Ah, those curtains! Drawn, she says;
4th May;
the curtains open http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 11:13:02 AM
the curtains open http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Ah but if Tannerman, as the McCanns would have us believe, was the abductor the curtains would have been open at Oldfield's 9.30 visit and he would have noticed.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alfie on December 24, 2016, 01:44:03 PM
Ah but if Tannerman, as the McCanns would have us believe, was the abductor the curtains would have been open at Oldfield's 9.30 visit and he would have noticed.
If the McCanns story is impossible, what on earth does that make your tall tale of improbable events?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: G-Unit on December 24, 2016, 01:56:58 PM
Could be a slight translation interpretation issue.
I see a pattern emerging. If Kate says something which doesn't fit with other evidence, it's always someone else's fault, not hers. It seems to you are basing that solely on your own beliefs, unless you can produce evidence that you're right.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 24, 2016, 02:40:38 PM
Light could permeate from the street lamp outside depending upon which story about the light intensity you wish to believe. There appear to be two versions. 1. When people are lurking or Jane Tanner is walking up the street it's about 100fc 2. When looking from a table in The Tapas Bar toward block 5 it's about 10,000 fc. Allegedly Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 04:03:57 PM
Light could permeate from the street lamp outside depending upon which story about the light intensity you wish to believe. There appear to be two versions. 1. When people are lurking or Jane Tanner is walking up the street it's about 100fc 2. When looking from a table in The Tapas Bar toward block 5 it's about 10,000 fc. Allegedly Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice.
You are introducing a separate topic here about the lighting along the road. Your comment maybe valid but it is not up for discussion.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 04:14:53 PM
I see a pattern emerging. If Kate says something which doesn't fit with other evidence, it's always someone else's fault, not hers. It seems to you are basing that solely on your own beliefs, unless you can produce evidence that you're right.
Right there are many reasons I can think why this is a mistake in translation: 1. The construction of your original sentences seemed awkward with the word open being used too many times. 2. If the curtains were opened by a burglar and the shutter were up there would have been shafts of light entering the room coming from the street lights. Kate would picked this up immediately. 3. when the curtains parted in the gust of with it was then that she had the use of this light to see that Madeleine was missing.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 04:19:46 PM
Ah but if Tannerman, as the McCanns would have us believe, was the abductor the curtains would have been open at Oldfield's 9.30 visit and he would have noticed.
The curtains were closed but they parted in the wind. Later they may have been partially openned after people had peered out the window looking to see if Madeleine had dropped out the window.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: jassi on December 24, 2016, 04:29:13 PM
You mean more tampering with the crime scene ?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 04:32:22 PM
You are introducing a separate topic here about the lighting along the road. Your comment maybe valid but it is not up for discussion.
I am talking about light howsoever generated which about fits in with the thread title. You seem to have your unofficial mod head on again. Maybe you need a break........ &%+((£
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 04:52:59 PM
I am talking about light howsoever generated which about fits in with the thread title. You seem to have your unofficial mod head on again. Maybe you need a break........ &%+((£
I apologise for I now realise the ambient lighting levels will affect the amount of light coming through the flapping curtains.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2016, 05:11:11 PM
Kate couldn't make her out being so dark with alleged open window/shutter but Gerry easily could having his proud father moment. Another fine mess LOL.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Eleanor on December 24, 2016, 05:29:42 PM
Kate couldn't make her out being so dark with alleged open window/shutter but Gerry easily could having his proud father moment. Another fine mess LOL.
Kate couldn't make her out because she wasn't there. Nothing to do with the quality of light.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 05:32:08 PM
Kate couldn't make her out being so dark with alleged open window/shutter but Gerry easily could having his proud father moment. Another fine mess LOL.
Gerry unlike the rest turned on the light in the kid's bedroom.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2016, 05:48:43 PM
Gerry unlike the rest turned on the light in the kid's bedroom.
He didn't want to wake the kids so he turned the light on. What nonsense.
"They also kissed Madeleine, who was lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
"With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
As I said, another fine mess.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 06:01:26 PM
He didn't want to wake the kids so he turned the light on. What nonsense.
"They also kissed Madeleine, who was lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
"With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
As I said, another fine mess.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm "----- With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. With respect to the other bed next to the window in the children's bedroom he says that it showed no signs that anyone had put their feet on it, namely, dirt or shoe prints." So doubts anyone entered through the window either. Thanks for that.
Do you accept my finding Gerry turned on the light at his check?
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2016, 06:07:55 PM
No.
7:24 - room is dark then he turns the light on but he made a point of coming in through the quieter patio way not to wake the kids (13:46).
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: G-Unit on December 24, 2016, 06:26:20 PM
This was before they all realised it was a crime scene. Kate realised it quickly the others needed more convincing.
Didn't someone think immediately that Madeliene had been taken? If so that would be a criminal offence (A. Redwood); ergo it was appreciated it was a crime scene from the off.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 24, 2016, 07:34:02 PM
Didn't someone think immediately that Madeliene had been taken? If so that would be a criminal offence (A. Redwood); ergo it was appreciated it was a crime scene from the off.
I said that, but the others all thought Kate was wrong so they didn't respect the crime scene at the time.
Title: Re: How was it light enough for Gerry to see Madeleine but the others couldn't?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:20:03 AM