Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:20:08 AM
Title: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:20:08 AM
Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins on the night Madeleine was taken
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386093/Kate-McCann-Kidnapper-drugged-twins-night-Madeleine-taken.html#ixzz4Tpd4uTpc Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Does the forum think this is really practical? What would be the point?
A good summary of the issues here: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged "They are convinced the abductor went to the family’s apartment on May 3 2007 fully prepared with sufficient drugs, probably chloroform, to knock out all three children.
The fact that Sean and Amelie, then just 18 months old, failed to wake when the alarm was raised, nor even as they were taken to another apartment in the cold night air, has persuaded the detectives that they, too, must have been drugged.
Had the twins been tested for drugs immediately, any medication used could have been established, making it easier to identify the kidnapper, but vital time was lost.
Chloroform can be made easily and other sedatives, such as the horse tranquilliser ketamine, are commonly in circulation in the criminal underworld.
Even now, however, experts say there may be forensic clues on clothing or bedding which could yield a breakthrough."
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Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 04:59:29 PM
This could be my shortest thread ever for there was nothing really done about Kate's fears that her other two kids had been drugged. Now I did read that one of the PJ had mentioned that possibility, but that means having to go through a heap of statements again for they didn't say who it was.
I'm thinking if one of the PJ had this suspicion then Amaral himself should have followed up on it. Will this become the evidence of a coverup?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 06:48:16 PM
So I have pasted all the PJ investigator documents (as indexed in the file) into one document and find the first reference to sedatives in file order was the following: a letter from Ricardo Paiva. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SERVICE_INFORMATION.htm#p10p2533-2534 " 2533 to 2534 Service Information from Ricardo Paiva and his observations of the McCann's 10-Processos Vol X Pages 2533 to 2534 10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2533
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2534
Processos Vol X
Pages 2533 - 2534
Service Information
Date: 2007/09/03
For : Goncalo Amaral
From Ricardo Paiva, Inspector
Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
During the course of the ongoing investigation, various personal contacts were made by the undersigned with Kate and Gerald McCann, within my task of serving as communication element between the police and the McCann couple.
Within this context, the undersigned was present during various 'strange' behaviours by the couple, who gradually began to react in a very negative manner to the increased investigative activity carried out by this police force, especially during the use of the English sniffer dogs for detecting cadaver odour, when more evidence arose in the investigation for the hypothesis of the death of Madeleine McCann.
Several times, the McCann couple said that the attention of the police should be maintained focussing on the abduction hypothesis, which, in the couple's opinion, was the only scenario that occurred and that the police should not forget to continue to investigate the suspect Robert Murat.
Strangely, Kate also made several requests, three months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the police should take blood, hair and nail tests of Madeleine's twin siblings, because, as she said, she remembered that on the day of Madeleine's disappearance, in spite of all the commotion and noise made by the authorities and other persons who were looking for Madeleine in apartment 5A of the OC, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment, they remained asleep, due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual given to her by the British authorities, that would have been the procedure of the abductor in the real case involving abduction, rape and murder of the girl.
Today, when the undersigned went to the McCann's temporary residence to notify them of the need to present themselves at the police station to make statements, being able to take their lawyer with them, Kate McCann immediately reacted in a negative manner, making comments such as 'what are my parents going to think?' and 'what is the press going to say when they find out?' and that 'the Portuguese police is under pressure from the government to finish the investigation quickly'.
With regard to Gerald McCann, he constantly insisted in giving the undersigned letters and emails that he was receiving, mostly from psychics and mediums, whom he had selected and which mainly contained information without much credibility about the possible whereabouts of Madeleine and her presumed abductor.
More recently, and even before Kate's interrogation, during a telephone call between Gerald McCann and the undersigned, he made a reference regarding the investigation, that he was certain that the police did not have any proof that could incriminate them with regard to the death of Madeleine McCann and he said that the police were wasting their time in directing the investigation around the parents.
I bring this to your knowledge.
Inspector
Ricardo Paiva
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:08:08 PM
The next reference in file order is very interesting: 2587 to 2602 Letter of facts surrounding the investigation A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida 10 Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587 to2602 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
"The Media enhancement given to the case and their search for information has contributed to an evolution on Madeleine's parents declarations.
All the information that was made public, contributed for the remixing of the story, adapting it to eventual police questions, and to attempts to justify the indicia and consequent proof that was being collected.
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.
And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.
The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams."
The PJ are the detectives and with the clue from Brian Healy they needed to have taken the initiative rather than blaming their errors on Kate's supposed knowledge.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:20:15 PM
Now I'm trying to find the references to Brian Healy admitting Kate might have used Calpol on the kids. Some clues here: https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/25/the-media-the-twist-and-the-investigation/
"Reporter
Is it possible that Kate with her medical background ,might have, wanted to help Madeleine to go to sleep that night?
Brian
Not at all.
Reporter
Even out of kindness, she she certainly would not have given her….
Brian
Not even out of kindness, I think they may have used Calpol like most mothers do….(inaudible). first and foremost they would’nt have done that."
Is that an admission or a denial? Is it admitting the use of calpol but nothing stronger?
The timing of the article is in the same time frame as Ricardo's statement and not in some distant past.
"Madeleine McCann’s grandfather has told Sky News that he is distraught that his daughter, Madeleine’s mother Kate McCann, has been questioned as an official suspect in the four-year-old’s disappearance. Brian Healy said it was ‘disgusting’."
I'm a bit at a loss as to why Ricardo is trying to say Brian Healy mentioned it earlier.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:25:40 PM
Gerry McCann admits to taking drugs!
"In part of Gerry McCanns arguido statement of the 7th September 2007 when he was questioned by the Portuguese Police at Portimao Police station, he explains to the officers the exact medicines that they as a family took to Portugal. For any parent who travels abroad with young children it is quite common practice and definitely not a crime. Gerry McCann states in his interview:
When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an antihistamine called Terfenadine, for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal." Clues were given here: https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/calpol-and-nurofen-on-the-mccann-holiday/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:35:41 PM
Susan Healy in an interview which is reported in this site: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/kate-mccann-if-weighed-another-3501599
"“Kate and Gerry drugged Madeleine – and their twins, Sean and Amelie – with sedatives.”
“They don’t like taking tablets themselves and the only thing they have ever given their children, if they were teething or had a temperature, is Calpol. They didn’t give them anything that night.”
“Seven children were sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s apartment on the night Madeleine went missing.”
Susan says: “Again, it’s nonsense and I don’t know where this has come from – or why it’s only now it’s been suggested.”"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 25, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
So why oh why were the children never tested at the time.
By the way Rob, the odour of Trichloromethane /Chloroform would linger and a 'trained' anesthetist would know that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:47:37 PM
So why oh why were the children never tested at the time.
By the way Rob, the odour of Trichloromethane /Chloroform would linger and a 'trained' anesthetist would know that.
From my experience with anaesthetics I don't think chloroform effects would last for as long as it did to keep the twins asleep through it all.
This person's answer could help but it is not definitive. https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-chloroform-knock-you-out-for
"Unlike the movies, chloroform is not fast acting. A soaked rag held over a victim’s face would take up to five minutes to render them unconscious. Once unconscious an individual would require additional applications to remain “under”. The effects of chloroform on a human is proportional to exposure and dosage. Chloroform is not an efficient sedative and its efficacy is dependent on several factors.
body weight air circulation strength of solution Small amounts of chloroform can induce lethargy and disorientation. Increased exposure leads to unconsciousness and an inability to feel pain. This is why chloroform was all the rage in the mid to late 1800’s in the UK. Once applied to a mask the fumes posed a threat to surgeons and attendants. Eventually chloroform was replaced with ether a similar agent used as an anesthetic. Ether had fewer side effects.
Prolonged exposure can cause difficulty breathing, then paralysis, followed by death. From the moment of unconsciousness, there is a generally a 10–15 minute window where a patient is asleep. Once the patient starts regaining consciousness there will be a period of disorientation that can last 20 to 30 minutes and a severe headache lasting hours."
"So why oh why were the children never tested at the time." That is what we are trying to find out. I am trying to see who mentions it first, that they find it unusual that the twins sleep through it all. My next look will be in the GNR statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 25, 2016, 07:49:05 PM
From my experience with anaesthetics I don't think chloroform effects would last for as long as it did to keep the twins asleep through it all.
"So why oh why were the children never tested at the time." That is what we are trying to find out. I am trying to see who mentions it first, that they find it unusual that the twins sleep through it all. My next look will be in the GNR statements.
It is also adsorbed by a variety of materials and would linger.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 07:57:29 PM
It is also adsorbed by a variety of materials and would linger.
So I tend to think we can rule out chloroform or Trichloromethane. How would one person administer chloroform or Trichloromethane to three kids at one time? It sounds impossible. Kate and the others would have picked up the odour immediately.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 08:27:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcjylWzil0k gives us an idea of the language barrier problem and the importance of translators.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 09:57:40 PM
The words calpol, drug, sedate or sedative don't appear in the GNR officer statements. "twins" or siblings appears several times but never any concern as to their wellbeing.
"He did not enter the room because he was told, he does not remember by whom, that the twins were sleeping." "He was told that the twins were still sleeping in the bedroom. " "knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;" ". Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor; " "3. The patrol found the situation to be somewhat strange as the way the child had disappeared was not clear as she had been sleeping inside the apartment with the twins, whilst her parents were out dining 50 metres away in the same resort, and therefore the officers contacted the GNR post commander at 23.17, to tell him that the parents were holding the hypothesis that the child had been abducted."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 25, 2016, 10:07:44 PM
So it comes down to whether Kate asked Silvia to mention it to the GNR or the PJ.
Looking at Silvia's statement again something significant appears: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm "At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets, drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained."
Silvia removed their baby bottles which would be the ideal method of administering any drugs. Where it says "drink" you could easily insert the word "drugs" and make the sentence read "At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets, drugs and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained."
It was a crying shame the baby bottles were not tested for finger prints before Silvia touched them. Does Kate recall asking Silvia to touch the baby bottles?
Nothing in Fiona's rogatory about moving.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 26, 2016, 09:49:19 AM
I realised the flaw in the PJ argument as I was driving today. Tavares talks about Brian Healy's distant past comment. Does nothing about it and then complains when Kate brings it up again at the time she is made an arguido. I'll find the reference and refresh your memory.
Quote
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
If that was the case why wasn't it followed up by the PJ earlier? I now see the problem as being they would have had to declare their hand that they were thinking Kate had done it, for would they be able take hair samples from the kids without her thinking they were after her and no longer looking for Madeleine. Her whole relationship with Ricardo would have been different after that. Was she a bit naive to think that Ricardo was a true friend and was going to keep the gossip confidential? Little did he know that she had wanted these tests done from the very beginning. Did he know or not? Ricardo Paiva is thoroughly discussed in Kate's book when first introducing the PJ liaison officer. "We also become quite friendly with Ricardo Paiva ...."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 01:29:36 PM
I realised the flaw in the PJ argument as I was driving today. Tavares talks about Brian Healy's distant past comment. Does nothing about it and then complains when Kate brings it up again at the time she is made an arguido. I'll find the reference and refresh your memory.If that was the case why wasn't it followed up by the PJ earlier? I now see the problem as being they would have had to declare their hand that they were thinking Kate had done it, for would they be able take hair samples from the kids without her thinking they were after her and no longer looking for Madeleine. Her whole relationship with Ricardo would have been different after that. Was she a bit naive to think that Ricardo was a true friend and was going to keep the gossip confidential? Little did he know that she had wanted these tests done from the very beginning. Did he know or not? Ricardo Paiva is thoroughly discussed in Kate's book when first introducing the PJ liaison officer. "We also become quite friendly with Ricardo Paiva ...."
Kate said in her book that she told the GNR on 3rd/4th May;
''I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated.''
She is the only person who mentions this. No-one else who was there at the time mentions it. Perhaps she thinks she reported it but she didn't? Under stress people don't always remember things correctly.
She didn't tell the PJ when they arrived.
She didn't tell the British Consul who met them at the police station the following morning.
She didn't tell the interpreter when she made her statement.
She didn't tell the British Ambassador.
She didn't tell Guilhermino Encarnação, the head honcho of the PJ when he spoke to them on 4th.
She didn't tell the FLO's who arrived on the Saturday.
Any one of those people, had Kate McCann explained how unusually the twins had behaved during the night of 3rd would have helped her to explain the seriousness of her concerns and set the steps in motion to have the twins tested, but they didn't because she must have 'moved on' and either didn't tell them or didn't insist.
For all those reasons I doubt that Kate did report her fears, even if she thinks she did.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2016, 02:36:11 PM
Kate said in her book that she told the GNR on 3rd/4th May;
''I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated.''
She is the only person who mentions this. No-one else who was there at the time mentions it. Perhaps she thinks she reported it but she didn't? Under stress people don't always remember things correctly.
She didn't tell the PJ when they arrived.
She didn't tell the British Consul who met them at the police station the following morning.
She didn't tell the interpreter when she made her statement.
She didn't tell the British Ambassador.
She didn't tell Guilhermino Encarnação, the head honcho of the PJ when he spoke to them on 4th.
She didn't tell the FLO's who arrived on the Saturday.
Any one of those people, had Kate McCann explained how unusually the twins had behaved during the night of 3rd would have helped her to explain the seriousness of her concerns and set the steps in motion to have the twins tested, but they didn't because she must have 'moved on' and either didn't tell them or didn't insist.
For all those reasons I doubt that Kate did report her fears, even if she thinks she did.
How do you KNOW Gunit ?
I will reword that.
How COULD YOU KNOW these things Gunit?
Just because words were not written on paper, doesn't mean that they were not expressed verbally
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2016, 03:43:20 PM
Kate said in her book that she told the GNR on 3rd/4th May;
''I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated.''
She is the only person who mentions this. No-one else who was there at the time mentions it. Perhaps she thinks she reported it but she didn't? Under stress people don't always remember things correctly.
She didn't tell the PJ when they arrived.
She didn't tell the British Consul who met them at the police station the following morning.
She didn't tell the interpreter when she made her statement.
She didn't tell the British Ambassador.
She didn't tell Guilhermino Encarnação, the head honcho of the PJ when he spoke to them on 4th.
She didn't tell the FLO's who arrived on the Saturday.
Any one of those people, had Kate McCann explained how unusually the twins had behaved during the night of 3rd would have helped her to explain the seriousness of her concerns and set the steps in motion to have the twins tested, but they didn't because she must have 'moved on' and either didn't tell them or didn't insist.
For all those reasons I doubt that Kate did report her fears, even if she thinks she did.
I think Kate would have been frustrated by all the insinuations of her mental state. Going around saying that all three of her kids were drugged might have been seen by others as more evidence of this paranoia and therefore she dropped it till the PJ turned on her and started making her an arguido. I read her book and she has an incredible memory.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2016, 04:07:40 PM
It's hardly a minor, inconsequential point that one omits from a sworn statement given to the people you are trying to convince of abduction.
The possibility of sedation appears to be in the public domain by the time of the T7 rogs. Does anyone know the date and origin of this tale?
All the references are in the thread here, but not quotes from the T7 rogatory statements as yet. I hadn't thought of looking in there till now. Thanks. Only a few went into the kids bedroom so not that many should have been aware of how well the twins slept.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2016, 05:03:58 PM
All the references are in the thread here, but not quotes from the T7 rogatory statements as yet. I hadn't thought of looking in there till now. Thanks. Only a few went into the kids bedroom so not that many should have been aware of how well the twins slept.
I'm not asking about the rogs.
I'm asking when this information became public enough that the media wrote about it, and quite possibly the PJ or LP thought it was sufficiently important to try to nail it down.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 05:17:41 PM
If Kate McCann expressed a fear that all three of her children had been given an unknown substance by an 'abductor' please explain why no-one reacted.
If Kate McCann was afraid her two remaining children had been given an unknown substance please explain why she and her husband didn't react.
Why didn't the Policia Juduciaria take all necessary precautions regarding the twins who remarkably slept so soundly? They are the investigators, after all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 06:10:57 PM
Why didn't the Policia Juduciaria take all necessary precautions regarding the twins who remarkably slept so soundly? They are the investigators, after all.
When the PJ arrived they asked everyone to leave the apartment and they asked OC to reallocate the McCanns. The twins were removed asap. The PJ didn't know their sleeping patterns, they didn't know what the twins had slept through before they arrived and they didn't know what Kate was thinking. How were they supposed to know the twins were behaving strangely if the parents didn't tell them? Kate McCann didn't speak to the PJ. She said nothing in her statement the following day. Gerry McCann spoke to the PJ but he said nothing either on the night or in his statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 27, 2016, 06:11:22 PM
If Kate McCann expressed a fear that all three of her children had been given an unknown substance by an 'abductor' please explain why no-one reacted.
If Kate McCann was afraid her two remaining children had been given an unknown substance please explain why she and her husband didn't react.
We can only guess at the answer can't we? My guess would be that as the children were breathing normally and appeared to a normal temperature, colour, with a normal pulse rate and as they were being looked after by trained practicing doctors, and as the McCanns had rather more pressing matters to be dealing with - ie: the sudden disappearance of the eldest child, that they give this latter issue their top priority. Maybe they didn't want energies and focus diverted to what may have turned out to be a false alarm anyway?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2016, 06:23:13 PM
We can only guess at the answer can't we? My guess would be that as the children were breathing normally and appeared to a normal temperature, colour, with a normal pulse rate and as they were being looked after by trained practicing doctors, and as the McCanns had rather more pressing matters to be dealing with - ie: the sudden disappearance of the eldest child, that they give this latter issue their top priority. Maybe they didn't want energies and focus diverted to what may have turned out to be a false alarm anyway?
And to remember that anything Kate and Gerry said had to be said through an interpreter.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 06:23:53 PM
We can only guess at the answer can't we? My guess would be that as the children were breathing normally and appeared to a normal temperature, colour, with a normal pulse rate and as they were being looked after by trained practicing doctors, and as the McCanns had rather more pressing matters to be dealing with - ie: the sudden disappearance of the eldest child, that they give this latter issue their top priority. Maybe they didn't want energies and focus diverted to what may have turned out to be a false alarm anyway?
Kate says she told the police everything just in case it was important, yet she didn't insist that they listened to her fears about possible sedation. Even when she had their full attention in her first statement she didn't share those fears. It seems she didn't tell them everything after all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2016, 06:25:54 PM
Kate says she told the police everything just in case it was important, yet she didn't insist that they listened to her fears about possible sedation. Even when she had their full attention in her first statement she didn't share those fears. It seems she didn't tell them everything after all.
None of the first statements are detailed.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 27, 2016, 06:33:55 PM
Kate says she told the police everything just in case it was important, yet she didn't insist that they listened to her fears about possible sedation. Even when she had their full attention in her first statement she didn't share those fears. It seems she didn't tell them everything after all.
Perhaps, as the twins were awake, happy and healthy by the time she gave her statement she had put the idea out of her mind.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 27, 2016, 06:40:12 PM
Perhaps, as the twins were awake, happy and healthy by the time she gave her statement she had put the idea out of her mind.
It's the problem with many statements and releases months and years apart, human nature tends to modify the memory to paint themselves in the best possible light.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2016, 06:43:40 PM
Perhaps, as the twins were awake, happy and healthy by the time she gave her statement she had put the idea out of her mind.
She had already contradicted Gerry by saying she had used the back sliding door rather than the locked one. Gerry must have known he wasn't onto the truth when he said he used the key to get in. What other pressure could Kate be under not to tell the whole story? If by that stage she thought the kids had been drugged, did she think for a moment it could have been the kind actions of her husband or one of her friends? We would not know what thoughts were rushing around in her brain. And Matt seemed to know about the open sliding door without being told.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 27, 2016, 06:46:27 PM
It's the problem with many statements and releases months and years apart, human nature tends to modify the memory to paint themselves in the best possible light.
What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 08:47:26 PM
Both parents managed to mention Madeleine's remark about the twins crying, so how could they forget to mention their suspicions about sedated twins? There's an obvious explanation for them failing to hear the children crying; they weren't there. There's no obvious explanation for the unresponsive twins, so it should have been seen as more important.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on December 27, 2016, 08:55:39 PM
Was she a bit naive to think that Ricardo was a true friend and was going to keep the gossip confidential? Little did he know that she had wanted these tests done from the very beginning. Did he know or not? Ricardo Paiva is thoroughly discussed in Kate's book when first introducing the PJ liaison officer. "We also become quite friendly with Ricardo Paiva ...."
Liaison officers have a dual task Rob. To offer support and act as a liaison with the investigating officers and also to gather information and evidence. Anyone who thinks that they are only there to provide a shoulder to cry on are just a tad naive.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on December 27, 2016, 09:11:54 PM
It's hardly a minor, inconsequential point that one omits from a sworn statement given to the people you are trying to convince of abduction.
The possibility of sedation appears to be in the public domain by the time of the T7 rogs. Does anyone know the date and origin of this tale?
Their aim in the early stages would have been purely and simply to help the PJ find Madeleine. They could not at that early stage, have realised that Amaral had dismissed the idea of an abduction and was merely trying to pin the blame on them
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 27, 2016, 10:26:57 PM
Their aim in the early stages would have been purely and simply to help the PJ find Madeleine. They could not at that early stage, have realised that Amaral had dismissed the idea of an abduction and was merely trying to pin the blame on them
Pardon?
An abduction had been dismissed by 4 May 2007 when the T9 gave first statements? Seriously?
When no possibility of sedation was mentioned in any statement? Was that thought to help the PJ find Madeleine?
What was the deal with making Murat an arguido and convincing a judge that Malinka should be bugged and raided?
Murat arguido on the 15th when the second round of Tapas interviews were on the 10th?
Have I been reading the wrong case?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 27, 2016, 10:43:08 PM
Liaison officers have a dual task Rob. To offer support and act as a liaison with the investigating officers and also to gather information and evidence. Anyone who thinks that they are only there to provide a shoulder to cry on are just a tad naive.
I have dealt with an FLO and they are very good at extracting information from the family. They are also very good at withholding information from the family. Their priority soon becomes clear.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 27, 2016, 10:56:59 PM
Liaison officers have a dual task Rob. To offer support and act as a liaison with the investigating officers and also to gather information and evidence. Anyone who thinks that they are only there to provide a shoulder to cry on are just a tad naive.
I guess if you are innocent and the FLO is outwardly sympathetic to your situation then I guess you could be forgiven for thinking that that he or she was there in a supporting role rather than trying to build a bogus case against you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2016, 11:49:22 PM
As Doctors they were well able to monitor the vital signs themselves and take action as and when necessary. If necessary.
'I think my kids have been sedated by an abductor! I don't know what might be in their system! Still, if I put my hand on their back now and again to see if they're still breathing that'll do.' said the highly trained doctor. 'Thank goodness she's no longer practising' say I because I'd want more if it was my child.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 08:36:40 AM
As Doctors they were well able to monitor the vital signs themselves and take action as and when necessary. If necessary.
But their first priority must have been to find Madeleine. So when were they going to monitor their other kids? They didn't have their doctor gear with them, and they had been drinking. They might have some knowledge but they were out of their usual doctor role.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 08:38:48 AM
'I think my kids have been sedated by an abductor! I don't know what might be in their system! Still, if I put my hand on their back now and again to see if they're still breathing that'll do.' said the highly trained doctor. 'Thank goodness she's no longer practising' say I because I'd want more if it was my child.
Silvia may not have passed on Kate's concerns and just said to her "they look alright to me". What more could Kate do?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 08:42:06 AM
'I think my kids have been sedated by an abductor! I don't know what might be in their system! Still, if I put my hand on their back now and again to see if they're still breathing that'll do.' said the highly trained doctor. 'Thank goodness she's no longer practising' say I because I'd want more if it was my child.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell.
So by magic, she was able to check their blood chemistry by the laying of hands.
Now that's magic.
The Mccanns and the PJ should have insisted the other 2 children were medically examined, there were no excuses.
It would have cleared up very quickly if they had been drugged, or not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 09:06:22 AM
But they didn't appear to be okay or why did Kate, allegedly, raise her concerns with the PJ officers?
Yes, there's a contradiction there.
If Kate was worried enough to tell the police she suspected sedation then the children were not, in her opinion, OK. If the children were not OK they needed checking out. It's a case of you can't have one without the other.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on December 28, 2016, 11:15:18 AM
If Kate was worried enough to tell the police she suspected sedation then the children were not, in her opinion, OK. If the children were not OK they needed checking out. It's a case of you can't have one without the other.
Aren't The Police supposed to do something about this sort of situation? Kate wouldn't have known how to get to the nearest hospital.
Another PJ fail if you ask me.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 28, 2016, 11:20:50 AM
Aren't The Police supposed to do something about this sort of situation? Kate wouldn't have known how to get to the nearest hospital.
Another PJ fail if you ask me.
Kate's pals Tweedledee and Tweedledum wouldn't have been aware what was a normal sleep pattern for the twins but their parents obviously were yet did nothing. Were they so engulfed in trauma that they couldn't think properly??
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 28, 2016, 11:51:13 AM
Kate's pals Tweedledee and Tweedledum wouldn't have been aware what was a normal sleep pattern for the twins but their parents obviously were yet did nothing. Were they so engulfed in trauma that they couldn't think properly??
This is indeed a possibility.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 28, 2016, 12:08:02 PM
Kate's pals Tweedledee and Tweedledum wouldn't have been aware what was a normal sleep pattern for the twins but their parents obviously were yet did nothing. Were they so engulfed in trauma that they couldn't think properly??
Wouldn't the trauma be more likely to make you more panicky about your remaining children, not less?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 28, 2016, 02:48:42 PM
Liaison officers have a dual task Rob. To offer support and act as a liaison with the investigating officers and also to gather information and evidence. Anyone who thinks that they are only there to provide a shoulder to cry on are just a tad naive.
The clue is in the missing word of their title: Family Liaison Police Officers.
"Although FLOs offer support, their main role is to gather evidence and information from the family to help with the investigation. People are not always aware of this and so tensions arise".
Blood gases? Will they tell if a child is sedated? How would they take blood samples from 2 year olds.That is going to be fun and games.
It's one of the ways you would manage & monitor a suspected overdose. Identification of drugs often comes much later, after the clinical situation has been dealt with.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 28, 2016, 06:17:09 PM
It's one of the ways you would manage & monitor a suspected overdose. Identification of drugs often comes much later, after the clinical situation has been dealt with.
OK but there was only minor signs of an immediate clinical situation. The only sign was that they seemed to be slow to wake up, which had the advantage of Kate being able to easily organise and help with the search.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 06:52:19 PM
You are not a nurse by the sounds of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9d7YtTxknk That is what I'd imagine it was like.
And another one @ 2.30 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs0oz96LPYc
Simple to fit a little blood test in like that, innit? - With two, not one, 2 year olds - and when you are desperately searching for your missing eldest daughter - and when you have no car - and when you dont speak the language - and when you dont know where the nearest hospital is - and when you dont know if it will be open, or closed - and when you need to be at home in case your missing daughter should come home - and when you need to be in to talk to the Police - and you are in shock and crying - and when it is the middle of the night as far as the children are concerned - and when you are a doctor, surrounded by doctors who will help should help be needed
Simple to get those blood tests innit ?
Just stick a needle in the vein, simples ... jassi knows ! %&5%£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 28, 2016, 10:41:38 PM
One question. Is it ever acceptable, no matter what the circumstances, to suspect your child may have been given a lethal dose of an unknown sedative yet do nothing and alert no one?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 28, 2016, 10:51:28 PM
One question. Is it ever acceptable, no matter what the circumstances, to suspect your child may have been given a lethal dose of an unknown sedative yet do nothing and alert no one?
That depends on where one is and who one is............ 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 28, 2016, 11:12:27 PM
One question. Is it ever acceptable, no matter what the circumstances, to suspect your child may have been given a lethal dose of an unknown sedative yet do nothing and alert no one?
Who suspected their child had been given a lethal dose of sedative? I don't remember Kate ever stating she believed the twins were in grave danger of imminent death?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2016, 11:48:29 PM
One question. Is it ever acceptable, no matter what the circumstances, to suspect your child may have been given a lethal dose of an unknown sedative yet do nothing and alert no one?
Who was aware it was a lethal dose? I suspect some might think you are referring to Kate or Gerry but maybe you are actually referring to the real suspect.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 12:11:34 AM
Who suspected their child had been given a lethal dose of sedative? I don't remember Kate ever stating she believed the twins were in grave danger of imminent death?
For those who think that chloroform is easy to make and horse tranquiliser is easy to obtain, please answer this.
The twins were two and a quarter. What is the dose of home-made chloroform that sedates the children, but does not endanger their health? Ditto horse tranquiliser?
Was this alleged abductor an expert anaesthetist? Or maybe a vet?
The 'Kate was in a state of panic' argument but assessed that the twins were OK does not stand up to scrutiny for a second.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 29, 2016, 03:30:32 AM
For those who think that chloroform is easy to make and horse tranquiliser is easy to obtain, please answer this.
The twins were two and a quarter. What is the dose of home-made chloroform that sedates the children, but does not endanger their health? Ditto horse tranquiliser?
Was this alleged abductor an expert anaesthetist? Or maybe a vet?
The 'Kate was in a state of panic' argument but assessed that the twins were OK does not stand up to scrutiny for a second.
You obviously have no medical knowledge I administer sedation routinely Vital signs normal No need to worry Even if they had been sedated it would be wearing of and they would not be in danger
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 03:39:34 AM
You obviously have no medical knowledge I administer sedation routinely Vital signs normal No need to worry Even if they had been sedated it would be wearing of and they would not be in danger
Does your sedation include chloroform or horse tranquilisers?
Rubbish.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 29, 2016, 04:15:58 AM
Does your sedation include chloroform or horse tranquilisers?
Rubbish.
Chloroform would need constant topping up if you wanted to sedate some one with that so we have ruled out chloroform. Horse tranquiliser sounds serious and I experienced ACP myself once when a person spiked my drink. It took a couple of days to get it out of my system. Wikipedia "Acepromazine or acetylpromazine (more commonly known as ACP, Ace, or by the trade names Atravet or Acezine 2, number depending on mg/ml dose) is a phenothiazine derivative antipsychotic drug. It was used on humans during the 1950s as an antipsychotic,[1] but is now almost exclusively used on animals as a sedative and antiemetic. Its closely related analogue, chlorpromazine, is still used as an antipsychotic in humans. Acepromazine is used primarily as a chemical restraint in hyperactive or fractious animals. However, it does not relieve anxiety, and some believe it may make anxiety worse in the long run if used on an anxious animal (for example, thunderstorm phobias). I think ACP is "horse tranquiliser" but further research it is more a term reserved for Ketamine. A person who has taken ketamine says it is an hallucinogenic and hence it would tend to wake you up rather than a sedative.
Ì obviously have knowledge of both I don't believe the twins were sedated
They would not be sedated with either of these but I'm sure there could be something else more suitable like ACP. Why would you discount sedating the children?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 29, 2016, 05:22:09 AM
Chloroform would need constant topping up if you wanted to sedate some one with that so we have ruled out chloroform. Horse tranquiliser sounds serious and I experienced ACP myself once when a person spiked my drink. It took a couple of days to get it out of my system. Wikipedia "Acepromazine or acetylpromazine (more commonly known as ACP, Ace, or by the trade names Atravet or Acezine 2, number depending on mg/ml dose) is a phenothiazine derivative antipsychotic drug. It was used on humans during the 1950s as an antipsychotic,[1] but is now almost exclusively used on animals as a sedative and antiemetic. Its closely related analogue, chlorpromazine, is still used as an antipsychotic in humans. Acepromazine is used primarily as a chemical restraint in hyperactive or fractious animals. However, it does not relieve anxiety, and some believe it may make anxiety worse in the long run if used on an anxious animal (for example, thunderstorm phobias). I think ACP is "horse tranquiliser" but further research it is more a term reserved for Ketamine. A person who has taken ketamine says it is an hallucinogenic and hence it would tend to wake you up rather than a sedative. They would not be sedated with either of these but I'm sure there could be something else more suitable like ACP. Why would you discount sedating the children?
How would a sedative be given and when Oral sedatives take at least 20 mins to work I have personal experience of young children being so tired from over activity that they are impossible to wake That's why I believe the twins behaviour was not abnormal
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
How would a sedative be given and when Oral sedatives take at least 20 mins to work I have personal experience of young children being so tired from over activity that they are impossible to wake That's why I believe the twins behaviour was not abnormal
The logistics of dosing the kids especially all of them at one time is difficult to comprehend within such a small window of opportunity. It is possible they were just tired and slept well and were not drugged at all. Why would a kidnapper bother doping the twins anyway? That didn't seem to make sense to me, but the question was whether Kate's concerns were listened to. Maybe the PJ thought it unlikely so did nothing and therefore didn't mention it in their reports.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 29, 2016, 11:48:37 AM
Who suspected their child had been given a lethal dose of sedative? I don't remember Kate ever stating she believed the twins were in grave danger of imminent death?
And that's the point. We know from her own writings that she was concerned that the twins had been sedated. Why try to alert the PJ to the fact if she did not believe they were in danger?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 01:27:15 PM
And that's the point. We know from her own writings that she was concerned that the twins had been sedated. Why try to alert the PJ to the fact if she did not believe they were in danger?
Hang on - I thought your criticism of Kate (one of many hundreds) was that she did not try to alert the PJ? So which is it? As far as I see it - she was concerned that night (but not fearful of the twins imminent death), but had more pressing worries in the disappearance of her eldest child, and her concerns for the twins took a back seat to the other major issue by morning when they were fully conscious and behaving normally.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 29, 2016, 03:27:46 PM
Ì obviously have knowledge of both I don't believe the twins were sedated
We're not discussing whether you think the twins were sedated or not, we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears.
According to the descriptions given by various witnesses the twins were completely unresponsive to noise, light, cold and movement. That gives them a possible score of on the Ramsay Sedation Scale (which I'm sure you're familiar with given your medical knowledge).
I'm quite sure that all the doctors present knew that the very first thing you do if you have an unresponsive patient is try to rouse them; by shaking if necessary.
If police officers fail to rouse a drunk regularly in the cells it's a serious disciplinary offence.
If Kate McCann feared her twins had been sedated her first response should have been to attempt to waken them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 29, 2016, 03:31:18 PM
We're not discussing whether you think the twins were sedated or not, we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears.
According to the descriptions given by various witnesses the twins were completely unresponsive to noise, light, cold and movement. That gives them a possible score of on the Ramsay Sedation Scale (which I'm sure you're familiar with given your medical knowledge).
I'm quite sure that all the doctors present knew that the very first thing you do if you have an unresponsive patient is try to rouse them; by shaking if necessary.
If police officers fail to rouse a drunk regularly in the cells it's a serious disciplinary offence.
If Kate McCann feared her twins had been sedated her first response should have been to attempt to waken them.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 03:43:14 PM
We're not discussing whether you think the twins were sedated or not, we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears.
According to the descriptions given by various witnesses the twins were completely unresponsive to noise, light, cold and movement. That gives them a possible score of on the Ramsay Sedation Scale (which I'm sure you're familiar with given your medical knowledge).
I'm quite sure that all the doctors present knew that the very first thing you do if you have an unresponsive patient is try to rouse them; by shaking if necessary.
If police officers fail to rouse a drunk regularly in the cells it's a serious disciplinary offence.
If Kate McCann feared her twins had been sedated her first response should have been to attempt to waken them.
I was not aware of the Ramsey Sedation Scale, so I cannot comment on that aspect. However, if you are correct, then failure to waken the twins would be very odd indeed.
Suspecting the twins were sedated and not ensuring the PJ were informed goes beyond very odd. It was vital in working out what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 29, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
And that's the point. We know from her own writings that she was concerned that the twins had been sedated. Why try to alert the PJ to the fact if she did not believe they were in danger?
Not so much the danger but another clue in this case.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 05:34:26 PM
We're not discussing whether you think the twins were sedated or not, we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears.
According to the descriptions given by various witnesses the twins were completely unresponsive to noise, light, cold and movement. That gives them a possible score of on the Ramsay Sedation Scale (which I'm sure you're familiar with given your medical knowledge).
I'm quite sure that all the doctors present knew that the very first thing you do if you have an unresponsive patient is try to rouse them; by shaking if necessary.
If police officers fail to rouse a drunk regularly in the cells it's a serious disciplinary offence.
If Kate McCann feared her twins had been sedated her first response should have been to attempt to waken them.
The question in the OP was "Does the forum think this is really practical? What would be the point?", so I don't mind that we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears".
What I see is a bit of your own bias coming through for without any proof you are blaming Kate for failing to act on those fears. Yet in her own book it has been reported she wanted and asked for the twins to be tested. So I tend to think it was someone else's failure.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 05:59:09 PM
Some people seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that every word uttered by the McCanns to every other witness / official / law enforcement was recorded and entered in the files and so if it's not recorded in the files then it's proof they didn't say it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 06:43:46 PM
It seems a very difficult thing to do and no one has really proposed a reason why a kidnapper would want to do this. Yet the PJ insinuate that Kate was given some material from an actual case where the kidnapper had drugged the kids. OK there may have been a precedence for that type of drug use but I'm sure there are plenty of kidnappings where the siblings aren't drugged.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 06:54:57 PM
Some people seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that every word uttered by the McCanns to every other witness / official / law enforcement was recorded and entered in the files and so if it's not recorded in the files then it's proof they didn't say it.
Some people seem to be operating under the belief that if the McCanns say it happened such-a-way then that is correct, even if there is no record of such.
This is not a trivial point.
Either Kate thought all 3 had been sedated or she did not. If she thought all 3 had been sedated, she should have sought medical assistance. If she thought all 3 had been sedated she should have said that in her PJ interview.
It's called EVIDENCE.
Here is just a passing thought. Has Kate ever mentioned what might have been used for this alleged sedation? As the person on the scene to discover Madeleine gone, did she smell chloroform? Did Matthew on his check? Did Gerry on his?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 29, 2016, 07:00:19 PM
Some people seem to be operating under the belief that if the McCanns say it happened such-a-way then that is correct, even if there is no record of such.
This is not a trivial point.
Either Kate thought all 3 had been sedated or she did not. If she thought all 3 had been sedated, she should have sought medical assistance. If she thought all 3 had been sedated she should have said that in her PJ interview.
It's called EVIDENCE.
Here is just a passing thought. Has Kate ever mentioned what might have been used for this alleged sedation? As the person on the scene to discover Madeleine gone, did she smell chloroform? Did Matthew on his check? Did Gerry on his?
Eh?
If Kate thought the twins were at medical risk she should have sought medical assistance, and doubtless would have.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 07:13:51 PM
Some people seem to be operating under the belief that if the McCanns say it happened such-a-way then that is correct, even if there is no record of such.
This is not a trivial point.
Either Kate thought all 3 had been sedated or she did not. If she thought all 3 had been sedated, she should have sought medical assistance. If she thought all 3 had been sedated she should have said that in her PJ interview.
It's called EVIDENCE. Here is just a passing thought. Has Kate ever mentioned what might have been used for this alleged sedation? As the person on the scene to discover Madeleine gone, did she smell chloroform? Did Matthew on his check? Did Gerry on hisbe?
Kate says she was concerned that they may have been sedated, not that she thought they definitely had been sedated. She also says she raised the issue with the PJ. There is no independent verification of this so you can either choose to take her word for it or accuse her of being a liar. Which is it to be?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 08:42:49 PM
I see you have ignored the fact that information essential to working out what happened to Madeleine does not appear in Kate or Gerry's statements.
Pity for Madeleine.
Part of the process of making them arguidos I believe. The PJ would have been asking the questions through an interpreter and Kate and Gerry answering through an interpreter and what is written down suits the PJ not the witness. Nothing similar to the English rogatory statements where every "you know" is written down.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 08:44:50 PM
Some people seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that every word uttered by the McCanns to every other witness / official / law enforcement was recorded and entered in the files and so if it's not recorded in the files then it's proof they didn't say it.
So Gerry, all their tapas friends including FP who was with Kate all night, all the PJ and GNR officers and SB all failed to report Kate expressing to the PJ officer her concerns for the twins? Do you actually believe that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 08:50:34 PM
So Gerry, all their tapas friends including FP who was with Kate all night, all the PJ and GNR officers and SB all failed to report Kate expressing to the PJ officer her concerns for the twins? Do you actually believe that?
Failed to report to who? You?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 08:55:36 PM
So Gerry, all their tapas friends including FP who was with Kate all night, all the PJ and GNR officers and SB all failed to report Kate expressing to the PJ officer her concerns for the twins? Do you actually believe that?
Well let's see shall we. We all know Kate thought the child was kidnapped, is that thought written in her statement? No sign of the word "kidnapped" or "abducted", even the word "taken" is only used once in another attached document " that a mouth swab be taken ....". So if those genuine thoughts of Kate aren't included why do we expect the PJ are going to allow the words "drugged" or "sedated"?
Interesting are the two French words "Enfants Kidnapp' 26/08/08" at the end of Kate's statement.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 08:59:57 PM
Kate says she was concerned that they may have been sedated, not that she thought they definitely had been sedated. She also says she raised the issue with the PJ. There is no independent verification of this so you can either choose to take her word for it or accuse her of being a liar. Which is it to be?
Where (source) and when did she claim she had raised the issue with the PJ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 09:01:07 PM
Do you know which chapter? Chapter called "Missing" page 99 in the paperback revised version. "We tried to explain what had happened. ....and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. A lady called Silvia, who worked at Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with the translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager."
So there goes an argument against the idea that Silvia had personally contacted the McCanns that day offering babysitting services. They did not know her till after Madeleine was missing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 09:11:46 PM
Kate actually claims that 'we' brought sedation up on the night of the 3rd. Who was 'we' ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2016, 09:23:21 PM
Did this claim arise for the first time in Kate's book "madeleine", in 2011?
Yes.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 10:16:59 PM
So why didn't they mention it in their statement? This wasn't a small detail, this was the McCann's twins, according to Kate, having been given a potentially fatal dose of sedative. BTW Alfie if Kate was suspected to be lying what do censure she would face so long after the event?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 10:18:03 PM
If everyone else who was there fails to mention sedatives to the PJ, then it's a bit of a no-brainer.
So who, out of those who was there, mentioned sedatives? Did anyone in the T9 mention sedatives on 4 May statements? 10 May statements?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 10:19:56 PM
So why didn't they mention it in their statement? This wasn't a small detail, this was the McCann's twins, according to Kate, having been given a potentially fatal dose of sedative. BTW Alfie if Kate was suspected to be lying what do censure she would face so long after the event?
Why do you keep insisting Kate was concerned about a fatal dose of sedatives? I have no idea why it wasn't mentioned in statements, though as I recall the first statements they were factual accounts of individuals' movements and not extremely detailed accounts of every word and action witnessed.
Don't understand your second question.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 10:22:54 PM
If everyone else who was there fails to mention sedatives to the PJ, then it's a bit of a no-brainer.
So who, out of those who was there, mentioned sedatives? Did anyone in the T9 mention sedatives on 4 May statements? 10 May statements?
Absolutely no one, not even the McCanns, mentioned anyone raising any concerns with the PJ about the twin's unconscious state
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on December 29, 2016, 10:28:04 PM
The 'drugged' issue aside, was there ever a question raised as to whether the twins had been interfered by this intruder (if he existed) since he was supposed to be a paedophile?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 29, 2016, 10:35:07 PM
How many PJ officers were available overnight 3/4 May for the parents to voice their concerns to?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 10:37:36 PM
The 'drugged' issue aside, was there ever a question raised as to whether the twins had been interfered by this intruder (if he existed) since he was supposed to be a paedophile?
I don't believe the subject was ever raised. You have to wonder why the twins were never interviewed by specialist police officers.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 10:38:09 PM
So she brought it up with at least one member of the PJ, whose statement(s) contradict this?
I said at least one. Kate says in Madeleine that 'we' raised our concerns....' so who is the 'we' and surely if there was more than Kate raising concerns that would remain even firmly in the minds of observers?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 29, 2016, 10:50:07 PM
I said at least one. Kate says in Madeleine that 'we' raised our concerns....' so who is the 'we' and surely if there was more than Kate raising concerns that would remain even firmly in the minds of observers?
I don't know but would hazard a guess at "we" being the two people who would be concerned about such an issue, ie herself and the children's father.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 10:55:54 PM
I don't know but would hazard a guess at "we" being the two people who would be concerned about such an issue, ie herself and the children's father.
Yet Gerry, none of their friends, no police officers or more importantly SB, who would have to have translated their concerns, mention this shocking lack of duty of care by the PJ. Sounds like another one of those improbable events to me Alfie.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Yet Gerry, none of their friends, no police officers or more importantly SB, who would have to have translated their concerns, mention this shocking lack of duty of care by the PJ. Sounds like another one of those improbable events to me Alfie.
What is improbable is Kate writing complete lies in her book that would immediately raise question marks about her honesty and integrity with the the people who were there that night, including the police.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 11:07:48 PM
What is improbable is Kate writing complete lies in her book that would immediately raise question marks about her honesty and integrity with the the people who were there that night, including the police.
Were they made arguidos?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 29, 2016, 11:10:29 PM
What is improbable is Kate writing complete lies in her book that would immediately raise question marks about her honesty and integrity with the the people who were there that night, including the police.
She had already admitted in her book that she told lies when it was convenient so why would it surprise them? Further at the time of her writing the book there was no active investigation taking place nor was there likely to be one on the strength of one lie so what censure did she have to fear?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 11:11:33 PM
She had already admitted in her book that she told lies when it was convenient so why would it surprise them? Further at the time of her writing the book there was no active investigation taking place nor was there likely to be one on the strength of one lie so what censure did she have to fear?
The fact that she admtted telling a (necessary )lie in her book about events in the summer of 2007 rather reinforces the truthfulness of her account does it not? Why come clean about this so-called lie anyway, if her book is full of other supposed lies? If her book was full of proveable lies that in itself might have been enough evidence to get the case re-opened, don't you think? A very risky game for her to have been playing
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 29, 2016, 11:20:29 PM
You appear to be saying that the police did not question her honour or integrity at the time, but would do when they read her book.
Were they made arguidos? Is that honour and integrity?
Happy New Year when it arrives!
No I think you have misunderstood. The book was published well after their arguido status was lifted, telling lies in the book which could easily be exposed not just by the police but those they were with that night would be insanely risky, so why do it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 29, 2016, 11:25:26 PM
The question in the OP was "Does the forum think this is really practical? What would be the point?", so I don't mind that we're discussing Kate McCann's ''fears that all three children could have been sedated'' and her failure to act upon her fears".
What I see is a bit of your own bias coming through for without any proof you are blaming Kate for failing to act on those fears. Yet in her own book it has been reported she wanted and asked for the twins to be tested. So I tend to think it was someone else's failure.
She 'feared' and she did nothing. She says she told the GNR. They don't say she did and neither did the interpreter. Their EVIDENCE suggests she didn't tell them.
Her own and Fiona's EVIDENCE tell us that she neglected to attempt to rouse the twins, which is well known to be the first step if someone isn't responding to stimuli.
Please explain what's 'biased' about the above?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 29, 2016, 11:43:33 PM
She 'feared' and she did nothing. She says she told the GNR. They don't say she did and neither did the interpreter. Their EVIDENCE suggests she didn't tell them.
Her own and Fiona's EVIDENCE tell us that she neglected to attempt to rouse the twins, which is well known to be the first step if someone isn't responding to stimuli.
Please explain what's 'biased' about the above?
In her book Kate says that she and Fiona had both children on their laps and were hugging them, they were obviously being very closely monitored by two doctors, or are you claiming that this is a lie also?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on December 29, 2016, 11:51:06 PM
How was Kate supposed to have informed the GNR officers of her concerns given she spoke no Portuguese and neither officers spoke English?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 30, 2016, 12:05:32 AM
In her book Kate says that she and Fiona had both children on their laps and were hugging them, they were obviously being very closely monitored by two doctors, or are you claiming that this is a lie also?
I wonder where that was? Not in the Payne's apartment;
Reply ”Err well eventually err the twins were brought up into our apartment err and that again to me was err a very odd thing because they were fast asleep, they did not wake up.”
4078 ”Were they brought up, so had they been taken out of their cots and brought up?” Reply ”Yeah, yeah. They were being carried, I think Fiona and Dave carried them up.”
4078 ”And they were still not awake?” Reply ”Still not awake, and the cots were, because they were travel cots they brought up, you know and err put in the living room and they were put into the cots and they just carried on sleeping.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Still unresponsive, no hugging, no monitoring, just carried in and put into their cots.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2016, 12:41:21 AM
I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated [Madeleine]
That was to the GNR officers 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'.
She does not say she told the PJ when they arrived later.
I'm still waiting for a link to the attending PJ officer's statements from that night. 2 GNR officers reported (much later) that the twins were sleeping unduly soundly in their cots. Was that because it had been brought to their attention? José Maria Batista Roque – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3281 – 3284
Witness Statement
José María Batista Roque
Date: 17 – 10 – 2007 *snipped* He says there were two children in cots placed in Madeleine’s room in a transversal position to the beds. The children never woke up, were in a ventral position, they did not even move during or after the search.
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3885 Witness Statement
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
Date: 17-10-2007 *snipped* He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 30, 2016, 12:55:35 AM
I'm still waiting for a link to the attending PJ officer's statements from that night. 2 GNR officers reported (much later) that the twins were sleeping unduly soundly in their cots. Was that because it had been brought to their attention? José Maria Batista Roque – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3281 – 3284
Witness Statement
José María Batista Roque
Date: 17 – 10 – 2007 *snipped* He says there were two children in cots placed in Madeleine’s room in a transversal position to the beds. The children never woke up, were in a ventral position, they did not even move during or after the search.
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3885 Witness Statement
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
Date: 17-10-2007 *snipped* He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made.
Those are the 'Tweedles'.
The PJ arrived and sent everyone except the McCanns packing. Then they asked OC to move the family to a new apartment. The twins were taken out asap. Kate didn't say she spoke to them.
Info on PJ here; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2016, 01:28:39 AM
The PJ arrived and sent everyone except the McCanns packing. Then they asked OC to move the family to a new apartment. The twins were taken out asap. Kate didn't say she spoke to them.
Info on PJ here; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm
So it would be fair to say that the 2 officers Kate said she expressed her concern to were the same & only 2 who referred to the twins in their statements. I note Vitor Martins did not make his own personal statement until 4/12/07.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2016, 04:45:05 AM
She had already admitted in her book that she told lies when it was convenient so why would it surprise them? Further at the time of her writing the book there was no active investigation taking place nor was there likely to be one on the strength of one lie so what censure did she have to fear?
Give me an example please?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2016, 04:54:10 AM
I'm still waiting for a link to the attending PJ officer's statements from that night. 2 GNR officers reported (much later) that the twins were sleeping unduly soundly in their cots. Was that because it had been brought to their attention? José Maria Batista Roque – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3281 – 3284
Witness Statement
José María Batista Roque
Date: 17 – 10 – 2007 *snipped* He says there were two children in cots placed in Madeleine’s room in a transversal position to the beds. The children never woke up, were in a ventral position, they did not even move during or after the search.
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa – Statement, 17 October 2007
Processos Volume XII
Pages 3885 Witness Statement
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
Date: 17-10-2007 *snipped* He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made.
That makes it look like the situation was at least raised with the GNR officers. As Misty notes also. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg371993#msg371993 Both Roque and da Costa statements reflect what Silvia Baptista says in her statement. It could be they were influenced by her arguments to the detriment of the McCanns. "He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made." When da Costa makes a comment that he thought the situation very strange, that reflects his feelings at the time, so at least he should have said something and done something about it at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on December 30, 2016, 10:17:25 AM
So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. But I needed to keep them close to me. I lowered myself down on to the couch with Fiona. She took a twin from me and we both sat there hugging my children. Holding one of my babies provided me with some much-needed comfort, albeit fleetingly. [Madeleine]
Kate thought she was in the Payne's apartment but the evidence I quoted says not. [Dianne]
I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
It happened in 4G, according to Emma, where she left the McCanns at 4.30am. It was then that they all moved to 5H and put the still sleeping twins into cots. I expect Kate forgot the twins were moved twice; once to 4G and then to the Payne's after 4.30am.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on December 30, 2016, 10:42:36 AM
Kate says in her book she asked for the twins to be tested for drugs on the night of the 3rd of May. It is up to you if you believe her or not. Imagining the state Kate must have been in that night, it is probable that the police didn't take her seriously, that she was just an hysterical woman claiming her twins had been drugged, after all they thought they were dealing with a child who had wandered out.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 30, 2016, 10:58:24 AM
Kate says in her book she asked for the twins to be tested for drugs on the night of the 3rd of May. It is up to you if you believe her or not. Imagining the state Kate must have been in that night, it is probable that the police didn't take her seriously, that she was just an hysterical woman claiming her twins had been drugged, after all they thought they were dealing with a child who had wandered out.
But Kate doesn't claim it was just her, she wrote 'we' alerted the police, so did the police ignore several obviously worried holidaymakers? Further several of the police officers included in their statements the odd, unresponsiveness of the twins so why wouldn't they take her seriously?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 11:05:38 AM
But Kate doesn't claim it was just her, she wrote 'we' alerted the police, so did the police ignore several obviously worried holidaymakers? Further several of the police officers included in their statements the odd, unresponsiveness of the twins so why wouldn't they take her seriously?
Why do you assume "we" refers to "several worried holiday makers" and not just her and Gerry?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 30, 2016, 12:03:34 PM
Why do you assume "we" refers to "several worried holiday makers" and not just her and Gerry?
You are simply nitpicking now Alfie. Even if it was only Gerry and Kate ( even though Gerry didn't in any of his statements mention this lack of inaction by trained police professionals) that does not negate the point that although several independent witnesses noted the unresponsive state of the children they failed, strangely, to mention in their statements the parent's obvious concern.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 12:09:47 PM
You are simply nitpicking now Alfie. Even if it was only Gerry and Kate ( even though Gerry didn't in any of his statements mention this lack of inaction by trained police professionals) that does not negate the point that although several independent witnesses noted the unresponsive state of the children they failed, strangely, to mention in their statements the parent's obvious concern.
So, it's your contention is it that neither Kate nor Gerry were concerned about their "unresponsive" children? And you have come to this conclusion because the next day, after their kids were awake and well, their concerns were not recorded in a statement by the police?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2016, 12:57:31 PM
So the staff put up two extra cots in Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room. But I needed to keep them close to me. I lowered myself down on to the couch with Fiona. She took a twin from me and we both sat there hugging my children. Holding one of my babies provided me with some much-needed comfort, albeit fleetingly. [Madeleine]
Kate thought she was in the Payne's apartment but the evidence I quoted says not. [Dianne]
I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
It happened in 4G, according to Emma, where she left the McCanns at 4.30am. It was then that they all moved to 5H and put the still sleeping twins into cots. I expect Kate forgot the twins were moved twice; once to 4G and then to the Payne's after 4.30am.
Can you prove what you are saying there? I can't actually see where you get this from "It happened in 4G, according to Emma, where she left the McCanns at 4.30am. It was then that they all moved to 5H and put the still sleeping twins into cots. I expect Kate forgot the twins were moved twice; once to 4G and then to the Payne's after 4.30am". I appreciate it is a bit confusing but it is hard to imagine that someone like Kate could get confused with going up one floor or going across to a different apartment block and then upstairs to 4G. Why isn't it just that Emma got confused about where she saw the twins on that night?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 30, 2016, 01:01:53 PM
Can you prove what you are saying there? I can't actually see where you get this from "It happened in 4G, according to Emma, where she left the McCanns at 4.30am. It was then that they all moved to 5H and put the still sleeping twins into cots. I expect Kate forgot the twins were moved twice; once to 4G and then to the Payne's after 4.30am". I appreciate it is a bit confusing but it is hard to imagine that someone like Kate could get confused with going up one floor or going across to a different apartment block and then upstairs to 4G. Why isn't it just that Emma got confused about where she saw the twins on that night?
Quite. I don't believe any of them have ever been in the least confused about the events of that night.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on December 30, 2016, 01:18:26 PM
But Kate doesn't claim it was just her, she wrote 'we' alerted the police, so did the police ignore several obviously worried holidaymakers? Further several of the police officers included in their statements the odd, unresponsiveness of the twins so why wouldn't they take her seriously?
So if these officers portrayed what they had seen and heard from Kate, it was Amaral who ignored her. Even though he claims he knew the McCann's were guilty straight away!! and then had the nerve to say they had drugged their children with Calpol!! even though he didn't have them tested to prove it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 02:08:06 PM
So, it's your contention is it that neither Kate nor Gerry were concerned about their "unresponsive" children? And you have come to this conclusion because the next day, after their kids were awake and well, their concerns were not recorded in a statement by the police?
I absolutely think that Kate especially was concerned about the twins being unresponsive which rather begs why she wasn't more forceful about getting help?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 05:15:12 PM
Jassi has not said or implied "a massive cover up and deception". Otherwise the post would have been deleted by now.
I think you are wrong. Jassi has made it clear that in her opinion doctors and lawyers would not behave in the manner they depicted. It is very clear from this post that she believes that all members of the group acted confused, ie: put on an act. When I asked her to verify this she gave the classic line from Yes Minister, and the implication from that is also clear. You may not be very good at reading between lines but most of us are. If the Tapas group were collectively putting on an act this implies collusion and deception.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 05:18:08 PM
I absolutely think that Kate especially was concerned about the twins being unresponsive which rather begs why she wasn't more forceful about getting help?
I've already given my opinion about that. You disregarded it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on December 30, 2016, 06:09:55 PM
In my opinion I don't think Kate was acting very rationally, she was worried about the twins, but distraught about the fact Madeleine was missing. Fiona said 'they were fine' so even though Fiona saw they weren't waking up and thought it odd with all the noise going on, she didn't think it necessary either to plead for them to be taken to hospital. Some children do sleep through a lot of noise if they are tired enough. Then picking them up to move them to the Payne's I read that if when picking a child up you can tell whether the child is just sleeping heavily by the way it behaves, if they shift into a sleeping position other than just hanging limp then they are just sleeping heavily. Then come morning when they were awake and behaving normally, Kate probably put it to the back of her mind to concentrate on Madeleine.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on December 30, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
In my opinion I don't think Kate was acting very rationally, she was worried about the twins, but distraught about the fact Madeleine was missing. Fiona said 'they were fine' so even though Fiona saw they weren't waking up and thought it odd with all the noise going on, she didn't think it necessary either to plead for them to be taken to hospital. Some children do sleep through a lot of noise if they are tired enough. Then picking them up to move them to the Payne's I read that if when picking a child up you can tell whether the child is just sleeping heavily by the way it behaves, if they shift into a sleeping position other than just hanging limp then they are just sleeping heavily. Then come morning when they were awake and behaving normally, Kate probably put it to the back of her mind to concentrate on Madeleine.
This sounds a perfectly reasonable explanation..
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
Except for not explaining why she thought the behaviour was irrational.
Kate finds Madeleine's bed empty, she looks around the house and out the open window. Goes back over to the Tapas and reports Madeleine taken. They all go and double check (she allows that). She allows them to call the police. No one finds her and she gets distraught and cries. Where is the irrational behaviour in that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2016, 06:53:01 PM
I absolutely think that Kate especially was concerned about the twins being unresponsive which rather begs why she wasn't more forceful about getting help?
The word "unresponsive" to a person who is a trained anaesthetist would have a different meaning than you use here. They would look into the pupils for responses to light and touch the eyelid margins for reflexes. Only if these were all absent would I say they were "unresponsive". The twins were more in a deep sleep rather than unresponsive. I don't think she (Kate) felt they were in any immediate danger hence no need to get too distracted by the state of the twins. She and someone else had expressed concern to the interpreter, and they expected her to pass on their concerns to the GNR. In their statements the GNR officers are aware the twins are sleeping very soundly and one even thought that to be very unusual. So Silvia seems to have at least transmitted some of the observation by Kate to the GNR officers, but they take it no further, but Kate had at least tried. So what Kate has written in her book once again appears factual.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 30, 2016, 08:13:01 PM
I think you are wrong. Jassi has made it clear that in her opinion doctors and lawyers would not behave in the manner they depicted. It is very clear from this post that she believes that all members of the group acted confused, ie: put on an act. When I asked her to verify this she gave the classic line from Yes Minister, and the implication from that is also clear. You may not be very good at reading between lines but most of us are. If the Tapas group were collectively putting on an act this implies collusion and deception.
I believe I can read between the lines as well as most.
Please feel free to think what you think because I am not connected to the Thought Police.
Jassi's post was, IMO, within forum guidelines. Perhaps another mod will think differently and act accordingly.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 30, 2016, 09:28:27 PM
Perhaps it would have been far better if they had been.
Obviously they would have walked away squeaky clean and could then have got on with their searching without having to pay for expensive lawyers & PR people.
As it is, it looks like they have a life sentence of public suspicion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 30, 2016, 10:09:33 PM
Here you go - my post, please point out which bits you consider "improbable events"?
As far as I see it - she was concerned that night (but not fearful of the twins imminent death), but had more pressing worries in the disappearance of her eldest child, and her concerns for the twins took a back seat to the other major issue by morning when they were fully conscious and behaving normally.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 30, 2016, 11:09:32 PM
I've no idea what happened to the statements of the UK liaison officers, or whether I'm looking in the wrong place, but one of the liaison officers said the McCanns enquired of him whether there was any evidence sedatives had been used in the abduction.
I believe this has been discussed on the forum before, and I believe the liaison officer route came under scrutiny as to whether it was an attempt to provide information to the PJ or to obtain information from the PJ. I cannot remember if a date was mentioned in respect of this. Presumably there were no liaison officers in Luz on 4 May, and I would guess there were by 10 May.
It's still an odd route to take. Enquire of the liaison officers, but don't tell the PJ clearly and directly.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 30, 2016, 11:12:37 PM
I believe this has been discussed on the forum before, and I believe the liaison officer route came under scrutiny as to whether it was an attempt to provide information to the PJ or to obtain information from the PJ. I cannot remember if a date was mentioned in respect of this. Presumably there were no liaison officers in Luz on 4 May, and I would guess there were by 10 May.
It's still an odd route to take. Enquire of the liaison officers, but don't tell the PJ clearly and directly.
What happened to the statements of the liaison officers?
This is now what appears under the heading: liaison officers:
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008 I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 30, 2016, 11:53:32 PM
Where would we be without you, Misty? I wasn't aware that the site had collapsed a few months ago.
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008 I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 12:00:34 AM
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008 I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Well you can't get it much clearer than that. Just 2 days after Kate is wanting the PJ to investigate whether any substances were used. OK she doesn't say check the twins but you can just about be clear that was the reason for her concern. That concern would have been made know sooner that the statement was written on the 25th 04 2008, I really hope so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on December 31, 2016, 12:01:06 AM
Well done, Misty, yet again.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 31, 2016, 12:08:12 AM
Well you can't get it much clearer than that. Just 2 days after Kate is wanting the PJ to investigate whether any substances were used. OK she doesn't say check the twins but you can just about be clear that was the reason for her concern. That concern would have been made know sooner that the statement was written on the 25th 04 2007 I hope.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
Yes .....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 12:30:08 AM
This statement (composed of 2 pages and signed by me) is true and in accordance with my understanding.
Date: 25th April 2008 I am police officer Markley of the Leicestershire Police currently working in the criminal unit.
In 2007 and in relation to the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was detached to Portugal in the role of family communication officer.
According to the Portuguese PJ Letter of Request, I was asked to respond to the following question:
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Thanks for this.
Let me see if I can sort the sheep from the goats.
The statement is dated 25 Apr 2008, about a year after Madeleine disappeared, and it appears to be in response to a Rebelo-team request. This suggests to me the answers were not already in the PJ Files.
By 5 May 2007, the McCanns had at least two concerns. There may well have been more - "a number of questions".
Both of the questions are phrased oddly in the statement.
Concern 1 was about the twins crying on Wednesday night. Not Madeleine and one of the twins, but both twins. More importantly, no mention of a potential intruder, just the crying.
Concern 2 was about the possible use of sedation. So by 5 May 2007, Kate and Gerry were worried about sedation, but not enough to get the twins tested, and Gerry does not raise it on 10 May. How jolly rum.
It's a pretty odd statement. There is nothing about whether this liaison officer or any of the other officers at the meeting raised it with the PJ. I wonder why that is not covered?
Is there any idea who these 'other officers' might be?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 12:49:28 AM
Here you go - my post, please point out which bits you consider "improbable events"?
As far as I see it - she was concerned that night (but not fearful of the twins imminent death), but had more pressing worries in the disappearance of her eldest child, and her concerns for the twins took a back seat to the other major issue by morning when they were fully conscious and behaving normally.
If she thought, as she did, that the twins may have been sedated and she knew, from her training, that the drug that may have been administered may slowly have been having catastrophic effects on the children's bodies so how could she not be fearful that it may be fatal? That she was lucky that they were hail and hearty in the morning does not negate the almost unfathomable decision she made the night before.
Further you say that she had more pressing worries but she found time to pray. Wouldn't that time have been more constructively used trying to seek medical attention for her babies ?
It's bit like saying I won't jump into the water and save my drowning child because I'm already worrying that my other child hasn't come home yet. It just doesn't make sense.
Just in case there is any doubt that Kate was afraid for the twins life this is what she wrote :
"I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too? It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on December 31, 2016, 01:14:18 AM
If she thought, as she did, that the twins may have been sedated and she knew, from her training, that the drug that may have been administered may slowly have been having catastrophic effects on the children's bodies so how could she not be fearful that it may be fatal? That she was lucky that they were hail and hearty in the morning does not negate the almost unfathomable decision she made the night before.
Further you say that she had more pressing worries but she found time to pray. Wouldn't that time have been more constructively used trying to seek medical attention for her babies ?
It's bit like saying I won't jump into the water and save my drowning child because I'm already worrying that my other child hasn't come home yet. It just doesn't make sense.
Just in case there is any doubt that Kate was afraid for the twins life this is what she wrote :
"I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too? It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all."
Alternatively, maybe she thought she would seem a bit of a drama queen rushing off with the twins so soon if Madeleine really had just wandered off, as nearly everyone else seemed to think
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2016, 01:53:38 AM
Alternatively, maybe she thought she would seem a bit of a drama queen rushing off with the twins so soon if Madeleine really had just wandered off, as nearly everyone else seemed to think
So you think looking a bit silly trumps possible health implications for your children if you don't seek help?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 02:07:49 AM
So you think looking a bit silly trumps possible health implications for your children if you don't seek help?
I'm not sure how easy it is to rush into a Portuguese hospital & demand an immediate toxicology test when you have no idea what substance, if any, may have been administered to your child; do you? The parents weren't exactly overwhelmed with police support in respect of the serious issue of their missing daughter - what hope in a foreign hospital if it's anything like the NHS?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 03:11:42 AM
I'm not sure how easy it is to rush into a Portuguese hospital & demand an immediate toxicology test when you have no idea what substance, if any, may have been administered to your child; do you? The parents weren't exactly overwhelmed with police support in respect of the serious issue of their missing daughter - what hope in a foreign hospital if it's anything like the NHS?
Perhaps you can tell me what the situation is with flu in the UK at the moment. And what the NHS is doing about it?
I received news tonight that there are 7 dead in the current flu epidemic in Portugal. The facilities are stretched already in hospitals along the Algarve. People are being urged to get flu vaccinations, because the epidemic is expected to peak over the next 15 days. To cope with this, hospitals and medical centres are to open 7 days a week. I think it is to be 24hrs per day, but I can't be sure of that.
I hope the medical staff on the Algarve had a good Christmas, because New Year is going to be bleak for them.
Just for the record, LuzDoc does a surprisingly wide range of blood tests. Then Lagos has a specialist blood testing centre. Next up the food chain is Portimão hospital.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 31, 2016, 03:30:03 AM
I'm not sure how easy it is to rush into a Portuguese hospital & demand an immediate toxicology test when you have no idea what substance, if any, may have been administered to your child; do you? The parents weren't exactly overwhelmed with police support in respect of the serious issue of their missing daughter - what hope in a foreign hospital if it's anything like the NHS?
There was no need for any immediate tests or treatment Kate ascertained the twins were breathing normally What qualifications do posters here have to question Kates medical decisions Apart from being general know it alls
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 05:30:32 AM
So who's fault is it that there are no references to sedation? It may not be the deponents but the PJ determining what is being recorded. - That was my point.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 05:48:30 AM
So who's fault is it that there are no references to sedation? It may not be the deponents but the PJ determining what is being recorded. - That was my point.
I would classify that as a no. Unless of course, you think the witnesses signed to the effect the statements were accurate, when in fact they thought they were not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 06:20:00 AM
I would classify that as a no. Unless of course, you think the witnesses signed to the effect the statements were accurate, when in fact they thought they were not.
I'm saying from the information we have we can't tell how accurate they were.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 06:49:33 AM
I'm saying from the information we have we can't tell how accurate they were.
They have signed for the statements as being accurate. The deponents were willing to put pen to paper. If the statements were inaccurate, the deponents have committed a civil or criminal breach of the law.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 07:04:11 AM
They have signed for the statements as being accurate. The deponents were willing to put pen to paper. If the statements were inaccurate, the deponents have committed a civil or criminal breach of the law.
But they aren't written by the deponent, so what is recorded is most likely correct, but I doubt if everything they said is recorded on their statements but they have already said it so there was nothing more to say.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 31, 2016, 08:32:29 AM
They have signed for the statements as being accurate. The deponents were willing to put pen to paper. If the statements were inaccurate, the deponents have committed a civil or criminal breach of the law.
Absolutely not
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 31, 2016, 10:12:01 AM
If she thought, as she did, that the twins may have been sedated and she knew, from her training, that the drug that may have been administered may slowly have been having catastrophic effects on the children's bodies so how could she not be fearful that it may be fatal? That she was lucky that they were hail and hearty in the morning does not negate the almost unfathomable decision she made the night before.
Further you say that she had more pressing worries but she found time to pray. Wouldn't that time have been more constructively used trying to seek medical attention for her babies ?
It's bit like saying I won't jump into the water and save my drowning child because I'm already worrying that my other child hasn't come home yet. It just doesn't make sense.
Just in case there is any doubt that Kate was afraid for the twins life this is what she wrote :
"I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too? It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all."
You are in the business of telling people how they should and would have behaved in situations which you have never experienced and know nothing about. It's jolly good sport being so judgemental but when your criticism is constantly and repeatedly directed at the same target over and over again for ten years, and that target is the mother of a child that has been taken, it really doesn't reflect very well on you IMO.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on December 31, 2016, 11:54:05 AM
Alternatively, maybe she thought she would seem a bit of a drama queen rushing off with the twins so soon if Madeleine really had just wandered off, as nearly everyone else seemed to think
Kate Mccann is a doctor. Gerry Mccann is a senior doctor.
Several others in the group are senior doctors.
THe twins were being monitored .... I dont believe that Kate and Gerry were worried that the twins might come to any harm
I think that they wanted the police aware ... That the twins may have been drugged and Madeleine may have been drugged too
They had the situation with the twins under control, but would have liked the twins tested to help solve the case.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 31, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Kate Mccann is a doctor. Gerry Mccann is a senior doctor.
Several others in the group are senior doctors.
THe twins were being monitored .... I dont believe that Kate and Gerry were worried that the twins might come to any harm
I think that they wanted the police aware ... That the twins may have been drugged and Madeleine may have been drugged too
They had the situation with the twins under control, but would have liked the twins tested to help solve the case.
Yep.
The investigative imperative deliberately conflated, by some, with the medical imperative so as to push the agenda that the McCanns were somehow gambling with the lives or wellbeing of their children.
Dreadful ...
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 01:38:50 PM
Here's an example of the treatment dished out in Portugal to parents who were simply administering pain relief for their baby's teething issues. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/maddie-mccann-police-took-our-baby-because-we-gave-her-calpol-belfast-couples-portugal-holiday-hell-30375896.html
Was this experience down to the Madeleine effect, thus proving the extent of the effect of insinuations made against Madeleine's parents re. Calpol or procedures already endemic in the Portuguese law/health services?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 02:55:27 PM
Here's an example of the treatment dished out in Portugal to parents who were simply administering pain relief for their baby's teething issues. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/maddie-mccann-police-took-our-baby-because-we-gave-her-calpol-belfast-couples-portugal-holiday-hell-30375896.html
Was this experience down to the Madeleine effect, thus proving the extent of the effect of insinuations made against Madeleine's parents re. Calpol or procedures already endemic in the Portuguese law/health services?
I am truly disappointed with you, Misty, but I'm going to leave the link in.
This has been discussed on the forum before.
The couple got drunk and had an argument in the hotel room. The father stormed off taking the baby with him. The mother got onto reception screaming abduction, and that she wanted the police. The hotel called the police and they duly turned up at the hotel.
In the meantime, the father had been in the hotel bar for more drink, then returned to his room, which was on the first floor.
The couple restarted their argument, leaving the baby unattended on the balcony. That's how it was when the police turned up at their room. Their assessment of the situation was that the baby was in danger so they took the child for a medical check-up accompanied by the mother. The father returned to the hotel bar for more drink.
The "threw baby from 8th floor into pool" and "took €875 from wallet" allegations are in the same class as "body hidden in coffin destined for cremation". Swallow those if you will.
We have a long thread since the last discussion of this incident that established, amongst other things, that Calpol24 was legal and on sale in Portugal, so hauling someone up for using Calpol is highly unlikely, to put it mildly.
This link is NOT an example of either policing in the Algarve or medical practice in the Algarve. It is about two people who got drunk, abused the system, and neglected a baby.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 31, 2016, 05:26:46 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why' if Madeleine was abducted Kate McCann would pretend she raised the issue of sedation on the night her child was taken? &%+((£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 05:42:59 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why' if Madeleine was abducted Kate McCann would pretend she raised the issue of sedation on the night her child was taken? &%+((£
It has convinced me she is innocent. But when you think whether a test result would clear her the answer seems No. For no matter what the result was Kate and Gerry would have better access to those substances, more so than the average person. So does that mean a positive test result would become self incriminating and hence if tested Kate would have to be made an arguido from the start. A negative test result would not be that much better.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 05:47:30 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why' if Madeleine was abducted Kate McCann would pretend she raised the issue of sedation on the night her child was taken? &%+((£
Raised the issue with whom?
We have a statement from the FLOs that the McCanns queried sedation at a meeting after they arrived on the 4th.
Where is the evidence it was raised either on the night of the 3rd or the early hours of the 4th?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 31, 2016, 05:48:34 PM
It has convinced me she is innocent. But when you think whether a test result would clear her the answer seems No. For no matter what the result was Kate and Gerry would have better access to those substances, more so than the average person. So does that mean a positive test result would become self incriminating and hence if tested Kate would have to be made an arguido from the start. A negative test result would not be that much better.
Perhaps that's the answer to Alfie's question - to persuade you and others of her innocence 8)-)))
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 31, 2016, 05:57:49 PM
But that is normal too isn't it. A normal person would want to proclaim their innocence.I have always thought Kate was innocent but insisting on drug testing the twins seemed to confirm her innocence to me.
I don't think you read my question properly. Try again.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 06:09:20 PM
I am truly disappointed with you, Misty, but I'm going to leave the link in.
This has been discussed on the forum before.
The couple got drunk and had an argument in the hotel room. The father stormed off taking the baby with him. The mother got onto reception screaming abduction, and that she wanted the police. The hotel called the police and they duly turned up at the hotel.
In the meantime, the father had been in the hotel bar for more drink, then returned to his room, which was on the first floor.
The couple restarted their argument, leaving the baby unattended on the balcony. That's how it was when the police turned up at their room. Their assessment of the situation was that the baby was in danger so they took the child for a medical check-up accompanied by the mother. The father returned to the hotel bar for more drink.
The "threw baby from 8th floor into pool" and "took €875 from wallet" allegations are in the same class as "body hidden in coffin destined for cremation". Swallow those if you will.
We have a long thread since the last discussion of this incident that established, amongst other things, that Calpol24 was legal and on sale in Portugal, so hauling someone up for using Calpol is highly unlikely, to put it mildly.
This link is NOT an example of either policing in the Algarve or medical practice in the Algarve. It is about two people who got drunk, abused the system, and neglected a baby.
In the context of whether or not the McCanns expressed their concerns to the police about the possibility of sedation during the period of their "neglect", can you explain why, in the circumstances, the PJ deemed it necessary to carry out a drug test on the Irish family's baby yet not on the twins?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 06:16:44 PM
We have a statement from the FLOs that the McCanns queried sedation at a meeting after they arrived on the 4th.
Where is the evidence it was raised either on the night of the 3rd or the early hours of the 4th?
Well there isn't evidence that early but the fact that it was raised on the 5th is plenty early enough for the PJ to do residue analysis tests, yet I must admit the result would not tell us much. But it would be enough to counter the PJ claim that Kate only brought up the issue of drug testing the twins when it was known by her that the results would be negative. In other words an early positive result would have pointed the finger back on her in their view too, but it shouldn't have.
I don't think you read my question properly. Try again.
Maybe it would be like someone insisting on taking a polygraph test. A guilty person would shy away. But the results of the polygraph are unknown and how is one to interpret them? Kate insists on the drug testing but results of the test are unknown and how is one to interpret them?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on December 31, 2016, 06:23:11 PM
In the context of whether or not the McCanns expressed their concerns to the police about the possibility of sedation during the period of their "neglect", can you explain why, in the circumstances, the PJ deemed it necessary to carry out a drug test on the Irish family's baby yet not on the twins?
Touchee misty
Yep, how come the police drug tested the Irish family baby ? .... yet decided iwould not test the Mccann twins, despite Kate having expressed her concern and wanting it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on December 31, 2016, 06:37:55 PM
Please don't asnwer my post with questions of your own. My post referred to Kate PRETENDING to raise the issue, so to answer your question "raised with NO ONE". Now answer my question, oh dear no I can't ask you what you think can I, otherwise I"ll be accused of being the thought police again. @)(++(*
That means you are inviting the forum to speculate on a hypothetical situation for which you have no evidence.
You know that is not permitted.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 31, 2016, 06:59:13 PM
In the context of whether or not the McCanns expressed their concerns to the police about the possibility of sedation during the period of their "neglect", can you explain why, in the circumstances, the PJ deemed it necessary to carry out a drug test on the Irish family's baby yet not on the twins?
Early on, the Police were convinced by the McCann's narrative and as doctors will have probably have given them a deference which in retrospect got in the way of a proper investigation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 07:00:50 PM
Was a drug test carried out on the Irish family's baby? There is no verification that I am aware of that this incident happened, so I cannot comment on the facts of the matter. But I am not willing to accept the word of two drunks who argued on the Algarve whilst neglecting an 18 month old child.
If it is your opinion that events went as these two described, then fine as you are entitled to your opinion. IMO, they are typical of the louts who come out here on holiday, get pissed, get involved with the system, then slag it off.
Screaming "McCanns", "Calpol" and dodgy Portuguese police seems to be a standard recipe.
The report of this incident by the Irish parents appears to have first been made to the Daily Mail, unless you can find a link to a report in the Portuguese press prior to 22/5/14. There is no reason to disbelieve the account given, stating that blood tests were carried out due to suspicions of sedation. The baby was not guilty of anything. The twins were not guilty of anything. Do the Portuguese police now behave in a different way because of what they failed to do on 3/4 May 2007 & during the following days as several sources have been proven to have been aware of the concerns over the twins' unresponsive state?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on December 31, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
Early on, the Police were convinced by the McCann's narrative and as doctors will have probably have given them a deference which in retrospect got in the way of a proper investigation.
Were they? So Amaral wasn't suspicious of them from the off and lied in his book that he was, right?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 31, 2016, 07:11:39 PM
Were they? So Amaral wasn't suspicious of them from the off and lied in his book that he was, right?
Alfie's (small) mistake is that the claim didn't come in his book (I don't think!); rather, in interview.
But it certainly came!
And lo!
Quote
DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?
GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents. And now the first question that is asked from the English authorities, from the British police forces, is that one. Who were the parents, that group of people, and who was the child, was she the target of abuse, was she not. Then, it evolves, it’s a formal procedure, its general for all cases and when the first statements are made, that’s the day when we start to suspect that something is wrong. Things evolved, they were suspects until we reached the work of the English dogs and then the suspicions ultimately became indicia [evidence].
So he says the first avenue for any police force is the check the parents. Not quite what you would like us to think it says.
The "suspicion" stretched right through to a wholly unjustified imposition of arguido status, on both parents; not remotely what is meant in an English and (I daresay) a UK context when it is enunciated as a principle that those closest to a missing person are borne in mind as person(s) of interest in that disappearance.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 31, 2016, 07:55:06 PM
The "suspicion" stretched right through to a wholly unjustified imposition of arguido status, on both parents; not remotely what is meant in an English and (I daresay) a UK context when it is enunciated as a principle that those closest to a missing person are borne in mind as person(s) of interest in that disappearance.
Tell me ferryman, what percentage of missing child cases are found to be involving a member of the family or close associates ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 31, 2016, 07:57:56 PM
Early on, the Police were convinced by the McCann's narrative and as doctors will have probably have given them a deference which in retrospect got in the way of a proper investigation.
Had they been a couple of beach bums I do believe the outcome would have been more profound for them as the worlds media wouldn't have been invited to interfere.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 31, 2016, 08:00:25 PM
Had they been a couple of beach bums I do believe the outcome would have been more profound for them as the worlds media wouldn't have been invited to interfere.
What that would have produced more evidence?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 31, 2016, 08:08:03 PM
Had they been a couple of beach bums I do believe the outcome would have been more serious for them.
Beach bums or people from a council-estate!
You may, well, be right.
But if you are, what does that say?
That people from more affluent backgrounds get away with things people from less affluent backgrounds don't?
Or that wealthier people unjustly accused are more likely to be able to gain access to the sort of legal representation that ought to be available to everyone unjustly accused, that finds him/herself in the McCanns' position?
I tend to the second view.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 08:29:00 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor's_fallacy The prosecutor's fallacy is a fallacy of statistical reasoning, typically used by the prosecution to argue for the guilt of a defendant during a criminal trial. Although it is named after prosecutors it is not specific to them, and some variants of the fallacy can be utilized by defense lawyers arguing for the innocence of their client. At its heart, the fallacy involves assuming that the prior probability of a random match is equal to the probability that the defendant is innocent. For instance, if a perpetrator is known to have the same blood type as a defendant and 10% of the population share that blood type, then to argue on that basis alone that the probability of the defendant being guilty is 90% makes the prosecutor's fallacy (in a very simple form).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on December 31, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
That people from more affluent backgrounds get away with things people from less affluent backgrounds don't?
Or that wealthier people unjustly accused are more likely to be able to gain access to the sort of legal representation that ought to be available to everyone unjustly accused, that finds him/herself in the McCanns' position?
I tend to the second view.
First sentence says it all really. It doesn't need your second somewhat biased sentence
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on December 31, 2016, 08:38:01 PM
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on December 31, 2016, 09:25:49 PM
It shows that, in the McCann case a) possibly the police had no training in dealing with children who may have been sedated (their stillness noted by 2 GNR officers) b) possibly the police ignored the situation despite their training.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2016, 10:35:02 PM
It shows that, in the McCann case a) possibly the police had no training in dealing with children who may have been sedated (their stillness noted by 2 GNR officers) b) possibly the police ignored the situation despite their training.
But correct me if I am wrong but weren't the PJ in the case you have posted proactive in having the child checked out in case it had been sedated? Further Silvia Batiste recollections were untarnished by panic so why didn't she mention that she had translated Kate's concerns to the PJ and note that nothing was done? Do you think if she had any inkling that the twins may have been in danger she would not have made sure Kate's concerns were taken seriously by the police officers present?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2016, 11:18:30 PM
But correct me if I am wrong but weren't the PJ in the case you have posted proactive in having the child checked out in case it had been sedated? Further Silvia Batiste recollections were untarnished by panic so why didn't she mention that she had translated Kate's concerns to the PJ and note that nothing was done? Do you think if she had any inkling that the twins may have been in danger she would not have made sure Kate's concerns were taken seriously by the police officers present?
Those very questions you ask about Silvia are the very clues that make me wonder how much the conflict of interest affected her behaviour.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 09:09:38 AM
And that's the point. We know from her own writings that she was concerned that the twins had been sedated. Why try to alert the PJ to the fact if she did not believe they were in danger?
I really think she was assisting the PJ with their investigation, for whatever drug being used would assist some other clue in the future. Where would they access such material. 7852.90
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 12:40:22 PM
So she brought it up with at least one member of the PJ, whose statement(s) contradict this?
Just catching up on some old comments so apologies if this has already been posted.
GNR police officer Jose Roque along with a colleague were the first police officers to enter the apartment and observe the scene. He commented in his third statement (made 17 Oct 2007) on the fact that the twins never roused.
He says there were two children in cots placed in Madeleine's room in a transversal position to the beds. The children never woke up, were in a ventral position, they did not even move during or after the search.
He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 01:20:06 PM
Reading through all the comments on this thread and referencing the fact that on the two nights prior to Madeleine's disappearance children were heard crying sorely and for an extended period. It is curious then that on the very night that Madeleine disappeared there wasn't a sound from the apartment and the twins were noted by several observers to be unusually unresponsive?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 01, 2017, 01:25:24 PM
It is also curious that none of the other kids were apparently kicking up on these nights, only the McCann ones. Were they being cared for differently ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 01:29:04 PM
Reading through all the comments on this thread and referencing the fact that on the two nights prior to Madeleine's disappearance children were heard crying sorely and for an extended period. It is curious then that on the very night that Madeleine disappeared there wasn't a sound from the apartment and the twins were noted by several observers to be unusually unresponsive?
The people who allegedly heard the 2 extended periods of crying never told the parents......so how were the parents to know? Madeleine only made one brief comment about crying.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 01, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
If the McCanns were doing regular checks on their children throughout the week, as they claim, how did they manage to miss these crying episodes?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
The people who allegedly heard the 2 extended periods of crying never told the parents......so how were the parents to know? Madeleine only made one brief comment about crying.
Fair point but then that exposes the checking claims on previois nghts a bit of a charade. Wasn't Kate supposed to have returned to the apartment early on the Wed night after the yoga girl incident? That being the night that two strangers were supposed to have entered the apartment after hear a child wailing. I must say, I would have investigated the crying too had I been there that night on finding no responsible adults anywhere. It would be interesting to know if these two people reported the incident to reception.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 02:00:20 PM
But correct me if I am wrong but weren't the PJ in the case you have posted proactive in having the child checked out in case it had been sedated? Further Silvia Batiste recollections were untarnished by panic so why didn't she mention that she had translated Kate's concerns to the PJ and note that nothing was done? Do you think if she had any inkling that the twins may have been in danger she would not have made sure Kate's concerns were taken seriously by the police officers present?
Why did police need to check if the child had been sedated when it was the parents who were just drunk & disorderly? Sylvia Batiste couldn't recall the clothes KM had been wearing that night so I doubt she had an excellent recollection of everything which she translated. I think the poor woman was probably so in demand that night her recollections were tarnished by stress.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 02:05:07 PM
Reading through all the comments on this thread and referencing the fact that on the two nights prior to Madeleine's disappearance children were heard crying sorely and for an extended period. It is curious then that on the very night that Madeleine disappeared there wasn't a sound from the apartment and the twins were noted by several observers to be unusually unresponsive?
Two nights before Madeleine vanished, Mrs Fenn heard a long period of crying. However, we still do not know from whence that crying came. Had it involved Madeleine or the twins, why didn't Madeleine mention it to her Mum and Dad, as she did after some crying the following night ?
We know that the twins did cry on the Wednesday but it seems that was only minor because no report by Mrs Fenn; a woman who seemed very worried by crying.
The couple who supposedly entered 5A to console any child crying do not IMO carry any validity. No names divulged, nor any names from the people who were supposed to know the couple going in. IMHO they were just another myth ... a stick to beat the Mccanns with
I dont believe anyone would hear crying from 5A, unless they went up close to the childrens window. No-one had reason for going there, nor had any business going there ... unless like Matt, they were putting their ear against the window to check for crying.
So, we dont know who cried on the Tuesday, maybe kids from another family? Furthermore, we dont know how long or hard the twins cried on Wednesday ? But no complaints from Mrs Fenn.
So I agree with you, John, up to a point ... and that point is that it seems there was real pattern of crying that we know about.
However, i do wonder if the twins along with Madeleine were drugged in some way. Madeleine more deeply drugged perhaps?
And I wonder this because Madeleine was sooo tired after her tea that she had to be carried home. Did someone drop something in her (and the twins) hot chocolate or sandwich?
The children were too tired to go out for their normal play with the other children that evening. And I bet that play time on the slide etc., with friends, was the highlight of their day.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 02:09:00 PM
Fair point but then that exposes the checking claims on previois nghts a bit of a charade. Wasn't Kate supposed to have returned to the apartment early on the Wed night after the yoga girl incident? That being the night that two strangers were supposed to have entered the apartment after hear a child wailing. I must say, I would have investigated the crying too had I been there that night on finding no responsible adults anywhere. It would be interesting to know if these two people reported the incident to reception.
Alternatively, the parents & their group are telling the truth about the checking& the extended periods of crying just didn't happen. Rachel was right next door on the Wednesday & heard nothing. Madeleine would have had to have been out on the patio wailing for anyone to venture up there - otherwise, no passer-by would have known adults were not inside.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 02:11:12 PM
Two nights before Madeleine vanished, Mrs Fenn heard a long period of crying. However, we still do not know from whence that crying came. Had it involved Madeleine or the twins, why didn't Madeleine mention it to her Mum and Dad, as she did after some crying the following night ?
We know that the twins did cry on the Wednesday but it seems that was only minor because no report by Mrs Fenn; a woman who seemed very worried by crying.
The couple who supposedly entered 5A to console any child crying do not IMO carry any validity. No names divulged, nor any names from the people who were supposed to know the couple going in. IMHO they were just another myth ... a stick to beat the Mccanns with
I dont believe anyone would hear crying from 5A, unless they went up close to the childrens window. No-one had reason for going there, nor had any business going there ... unless like Matt, they were putting their ear against the window to check for crying.
So, we dont know who cried on the Tuesday, maybe kids from another family? Furthermore, we dont know how long or hard the twins cried on Wednesday ? But no complaints from Mrs Fenn.
So I agree with you, John, up to a point ... and that point is that it seems there was real pattern of crying that we know about.
However, i do wonder if the twins along with Madeleine were drugged in some way. Madeleine more deeply drugged perhaps?
And I wonder this because Madeleine was sooo tired after her tea that she had to be carried home. Did someone drop something in her (and the twins) hot chocolate or sandwich?
The children were too tired to go out for their normal play with the other children that evening. And I bet that play time on the slide etc., with friends, was the highlight of their day.
Mrs Fenn was out on the Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 02:15:41 PM
Why did police need to check if the child had been sedated when it was the parents who were just drunk & disorderly? Sylvia Batiste couldn't recall the clothes KM had been wearing that night so I doubt she had an excellent recollection of everything which she translated. I think the poor woman was probably so in demand that night her recollections were tarnished by stress.
But they did have the child checked and that's the point.
This is from SB first statement
"At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. "
Are you really asking us to believe that SB would remember the above but fail to recall being asked to tell the police that Kate believed her children may have been sedated and could be in danger? Really ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 02:16:20 PM
This morning I am worried; something isn’t right in the account of the events:
Amaral then writes that they must gather as much i formation about the parents as possible such as whether either suffered from depression. So he was supicious from the off it would seem. Perhaps you could give a cite for thr police believing the parents version of events initially.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 02:17:14 PM
But they did have the child checked and that's the point.
This is from SB first statement
"At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. "
Are you really asking us to believe that SB would remember the above but fail to recall being asked to tell the police that Kate believed her children may have been sedated and could be in danger? Really ?
why are we still arguing about this? Misty has proved that the McCanns were concerned their children may have been sedated from the off, so what point are you trying to make?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 02:25:50 PM
why are we still arguing about this? Misty has proved that the McCanns were concerned their children may have been sedated from the off, so what point are you trying to make?
Where has she proved that?
She has proved they asked about whether any drug had been used in the disappearance on the 5th of May. She has not proved they voiced their concerns about the twins being sedated either then or on the night of the third. In fact Gerry admits as much in his arguidos interview
"-- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
But they did have the child checked and that's the point.
This is from SB first statement
"At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. "
Are you really asking us to believe that SB would remember the above but fail to recall being asked to tell the police that Kate believed her children may have been sedated and could be in danger? Really ?
Two policeman noticed the condition of the twins, Faithlilly - irrespective of anything the McCanns or SB may or may not have said. Responding to the sight of Calpol, as in the Irish case, appears to be more important than the suggestion of any sedation carried out by an intruder.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 02:31:43 PM
Two policeman noticed the condition of the twins, Faithlilly - irrespective of anything the McCanns or SB may or may not have said. Responding to the sight of Calpol, as in the Irish case, appears to be more important than the suggestion of any sedation carried out by an intruder.
As has been pointed out to you several times now Misty the police officers could have had no idea whether this state of deep sleep was normal or not, the McCanns did. Are you really trying to say that if the police officers were inept enough not to summon help for the twins this lets her parents off the hook?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 02:35:40 PM
She has proved they asked about whether any drug had been used in the disappearance on the 5th of May. She has not proved they voiced their concerns about the twins being sedated either then or on the night of the third. In fact Gerry admits as much in his arguidos interview
"-- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later."
I'm trying to understand what angle you are coming at this from. It seemed your initial argument was that the McCanns never raised their suspicions about sedation with th police at all, which, had they been in the habit of regularly sedating their own children might have been understandable. However the fact is we know that only two days after Madeleine went missing they were wanting answers from the PJ about the possibility that their children had been sedated, which would be a very odd thing to draw attention to if they were guilty of regularly sedating their kids. So can you please tell me what you are trying to suggest here?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 02:36:21 PM
Two nights before Madeleine vanished, Mrs Fenn heard a long period of crying. However, we still do not know from whence that crying came. Had it involved Madeleine or the twins, why didn't Madeleine mention it to her Mum and Dad, as she did after some crying the following night ?
We know that the twins did cry on the Wednesday but it seems that was only minor because no report by Mrs Fenn; a woman who seemed very worried by crying.
The couple who supposedly entered 5A to console any child crying do not IMO carry any validity. No names divulged, nor any names from the people who were supposed to know the couple going in. IMHO they were just another myth ... a stick to beat the Mccanns with
I dont believe anyone would hear crying from 5A, unless they went up close to the childrens window. No-one had reason for going there, nor had any business going there ... unless like Matt, they were putting their ear against the window to check for crying.
So, we dont know who cried on the Tuesday, maybe kids from another family? Furthermore, we dont know how long or hard the twins cried on Wednesday ? But no complaints from Mrs Fenn.
So I agree with you, John, up to a point ... and that point is that it seems there was real pattern of crying that we know about.
However, i do wonder if the twins along with Madeleine were drugged in some way. Madeleine more deeply drugged perhaps?
And I wonder this because Madeleine was sooo tired after her tea that she had to be carried home. Did someone drop something in her (and the twins) hot chocolate or sandwich?
The children were too tired to go out for their normal play with the other children that evening. And I bet that play time on the slide etc., with friends, was the highlight of their day.
Can I remind that Mrs Fenn was persuaded to go visit her friend on the Wed night as a consequence of the disturbance which lasted for over an hour the previous evening. So if two strangers did intervene on the Wed night they were long gone before Gerry returned early without Kate. According to Kate herself, Madeleine supposedly told her on the Wed that she and Sean cried.
We will never know if the children were sedated to keep them quiet due to the failings to have them tested at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 01, 2017, 02:37:09 PM
If the McCanns were doing regular checks on their children throughout the week, as they claim, how did they manage to miss these crying episodes?
Just bad luck I guess. It would suggest the crying episodes were non existent, were brief or the frequency of checks was different from that of the third night or that recollected.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 02:37:58 PM
This morning I am worried; something isn’t right in the account of the events:
Amaral then writes that they must gather as much i formation about the parents as possible such as whether either suffered from depression. So he was supicious from the off it would seem. Perhaps you could give a cite for thr police believing the parents version of events initially.
Not exactly suspected the parents from the start.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 02:45:57 PM
How do you arrive at that conclusion? Why, if you didn't suspect the parents from the start in a case of suspected stranger abduction, would you want to know their medical history including whether either suffered from depression, and why would you be concerned about the their accounts of that evening?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
I'm trying to understand what angle you are coming at this from. It seemed your initial argument was that the McCanns never raised their suspicions about sedation with th police at all, which, had they been in the habit of regularly sedating their own children might have been understandable. However the fact is we know that only two days after Madeleine went missing they were wanting answers from the PJ about the possibility that their children had been sedated, which would be a very odd thing to draw attention to if they were guilty of regularly sedating their kids. So can you please tell me what you are trying to suggest here?
No my point was that the McCanns ( as my cite shows the 'we' spoken about by Kate certainly wasn't Gerry) didn't raise their concerns ON THE NIGHT when the twins may have been in real danger. Further when they did bring the subject up with the FLOs several days later in that conversation there was no request for further action. Why did they bring the subject up at all? A fishing trip perhaps?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 03:09:08 PM
As has been pointed out to you several times now Misty the police officers could have had no idea whether this state of deep sleep was normal or not, the McCanns did. Are you really trying to say that if the police officers were inept enough not to summon help for the twins this lets her parents off the hook?
People want to put the parents on the hook because they were doctors. There was no evidence in the Irish case that the child had been sedated yet the police reacted on sight of Calpol, despite no visible outward injuries. Amaral made a big point about Calpol in TTotL. The CSI team must have found some in 5a. Why weren't they immediately on the ball?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:15:21 PM
But they did have the child checked and that's the point.
This is from SB first statement
"At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained. She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. "
Are you really asking us to believe that SB would remember the above but fail to recall being asked to tell the police that Kate believed her children may have been sedated and could be in danger? Really ?
You haven't considered her conflict of interest that she finds herself in.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 01, 2017, 03:17:30 PM
People want to put the parents on the hook because they were doctors. There was no evidence in the Irish case that the child had been sedated yet the police reacted on sight of Calpol, despite no visible outward injuries. Amaral made a big point about Calpol in TTotL. The CSI team must have found some in 5a. Why weren't they immediately on the ball?
They are already on the hook as you put it by their own actions before Maddie disappeared and afterwards by employing some very shady individuals.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 03:20:21 PM
People want to put the parents on the hook because they were doctors. There was no evidence in the Irish case that the child had been sedated yet the police reacted on sight of Calpol, despite no visible outward injuries. Amaral made a big point about Calpol in TTotL. The CSI team must have found some in 5a. Why weren't they immediately on the ball?
That's simply nonsense misty. The McCanns are not on the hook because they are doctors but because they themselves admit that they thought their twins were in an unresponsive state due to some unknown narcotic yet did nothing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:21:49 PM
She has proved they asked about whether any drug had been used in the disappearance on the 5th of May. She has not proved they voiced their concerns about the twins being sedated either then or on the night of the third. In fact Gerry admits as much in his arguidos interview
"-- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later."
Only 2 days later when toxicological tests could still be done successfully. Is it the English Police at fault then not passing this concern on immediately to the PJ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:25:12 PM
As has been pointed out to you several times now Misty the police officers could have had no idea whether this state of deep sleep was normal or not, the McCanns did. Are you really trying to say that if the police officers were inept enough not to summon help for the twins this lets her parents off the hook?
Either the GNR or the PJ and the English Police Officers after their meeting on the 5th or all of them let the McCanns down.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:27:40 PM
It was Gerry who left early from the Tapas on Wednesday. When Kate arrived back he was already snoring so she slept in the spare bed in the kids room.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:31:42 PM
No my point was that the McCanns ( as my cite shows the 'we' spoken about by Kate certainly wasn't Gerry) didn't raise their concerns ON THE NIGHT when the twins may have been in real danger. Further when they did bring the subject up with the FLOs several days later in that conversation there was no request for further action. Why did they bring the subject up at all? A fishing trip perhaps?
What would be the point of that? If they had been regularly sedating their kids then that would have shown up in tests. Why would the McCanns even draw attention to the possibility of sedation if tests would reveal this? We don't know one way or the other if Kate raised the issue on the night so you're going to have to do the one thing you really don't like to do and that's give her the benefit of the doubt. Or get in touch with SB and ask her. She would know presumably, although she didn't seem very good at remembering many of the details of that night in her statements all those years ago.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
They are already on the hook as you put it by their own actions before Maddie disappeared and afterwards by employing some very shady individuals.
The GNR officers noticed the condition of the twins. The CSI officers must have seen the Calpol. In 2014 the Portuguese officers still seemed to believe Calpol is a sedative (Irish baby case). The PJ suspected the parents from the outset. Whydid the PJ not arrange for the twins to be tested? If the police were happy to ignore "evidence" under their noses at the outset, they were probably equally happy to ignore concerns expressed by distraught parents
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 03:37:28 PM
The GNR officers noticed the condition of the twins. The CSI officers must have seen the Calpol. In 2014 the Portuguese officers still seemed to believe Calpol is a sedative (Irish baby case). The PJ suspected the parents from the outset. Whydid the PJ not arrange for the twins to be tested? If the police were happy to ignore "evidence" under their noses at the outset, they were probably equally happy to ignore concerns expressed by distraught parents
Yes, why when the McCanns raised the issue as early as the 5th May did the PJ NOT test the twins -what is the excuse for this lapse?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
No my point was that the McCanns ( as my cite shows the 'we' spoken about by Kate certainly wasn't Gerry) didn't raise their concerns ON THE NIGHT when the twins may have been in real danger. Further when they did bring the subject up with the FLOs several days later in that conversation there was no request for further action. Why did they bring the subject up at all? A fishing trip perhaps?
The McCanns can't be blamed for the words in their statements as they were written in Portuguese, so many things said were not written down and have gone unrecorded. Also if the English team that met with the McCanns did not pass on the information that is not the McCanns fault.
The GNR officers noticed the condition of the twins. The CSI officers must have seen the Calpol. In 2014 the Portuguese officers still seemed to believe Calpol is a sedative (Irish baby case). The PJ suspected the parents from the outset. Whydid the PJ not arrange for the twins to be tested? If the police were happy to ignore "evidence" under their noses at the outset, they were probably equally happy to ignore concerns expressed by distraught parents
Even if you can't prove that, that is how it seems to be in the end.
Mrs Fenn's statement has a slight confusion about it I find. Was it just Wednesday daytime she isn't at her apartment? If that was the case why didn't she hear what went on on Wednesday night if there was more crying? We need to look at this closer.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 03:47:04 PM
What would be the point of that? If they had been regularly sedating their kids then that would have shown up in tests. Why would the McCanns even draw attention to the possibility of sedation if tests would reveal this? We don't know one way or the other if Kate raised the issue on the night so you're going to have to do the one thing you really don't like to do and that's give her the benefit of the doubt. Or get in touch with SB and ask her. She would know presumably, although she didn't seem very good at remembering many of the details of that night in her statements all those years ago.
Who said the McCanns regularly sedated their children? Not me certainly. As to why they drew attention to sedation it would certainly benefit the McCanns, if they were complicit in their daughter's disappearance, to be forewarned to what the PJ knew.
We must never forget that when the McCanns had the opportunity to clearly request tests for the twins in English to the FLOs they neither asked for those tests to be carried out nor did they specifically mention the unresponsive state of the twins on the 3rd.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 03:49:33 PM
The GNR officers noticed the condition of the twins. The CSI officers must have seen the Calpol. In 2014 the Portuguese officers still seemed to believe Calpol is a sedative (Irish baby case). The PJ suspected the parents from the outset. Whydid the PJ not arrange for the twins to be tested? If the police were happy to ignore "evidence" under their noses at the outset, they were probably equally happy to ignore concerns expressed by distraught parents
Of course the PJ should have asked for tests to be done, there is no excuse for that but it does not negate the McCanns absolute duty of care to their children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 03:53:36 PM
That's simply nonsense misty. The McCanns are not on the hook because they are doctors but because they themselves admit that they thought their twins were in an unresponsive state due to some unknown narcotic yet did nothing.
Not according to them they didn't do anything/ Kate says she raised it that very night. They certainly raised it in the meeting with the English Police on the 5th, and Paiva claims it (the use of Calpol) was raised with him by Kate's father, before raising it again at the time of becoming an arguido.
Of course the PJ should have asked for tests to be done, there is no excuse for that but it does not negate the McCanns absolute duty of care to their children.
But what more could they do at the time? They would have found themselves in a difficult dilemma.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 04:53:57 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement has a slight confusion about it I find. Was it just Wednesday daytime she isn't at her apartment? If that was the case why didn't she hear what went on on Wednesday night if there was more crying? We need to look at this closer.
As Mrs Fenn had been giving a statement about Tuesday evening her further comment about not being able to add anything for Wednesday as she was only there at night would normally indicate she wasn't there in the evening.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 06:12:27 PM
Who said the McCanns regularly sedated their children? Not me certainly. As to why they drew attention to sedation it would certainly benefit the McCanns, if they were complicit in their daughter's disappearance, to be forewarned to what the PJ knew.
We must never forget that when the McCanns had the opportunity to clearly request tests for the twins in English to the FLOs they neither asked for those tests to be carried out nor did they specifically mention the unresponsive state of the twins on the 3rd.
Can you explain exactly how being forewarned that the PJ knew sedation had been used on Madeleine would have benefited the McCanns? What could they have done with that knowledge?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 06:15:06 PM
Of course the PJ should have asked for tests to be done, there is no excuse for that but it does not negate the McCanns absolute duty of care to their children.
The twins were closely monitored, being cuddled by trained doctors. There lives were not in danger, their sister's life however was in grave danger and that night she was the top priority.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 06:20:07 PM
Can you explain exactly how being forewarned that the PJ knew sedation had been used on Madeleine would have benefited the McCanns? What could they have done with that knowledge?
A more illuminating question is why, if innocent of any part in their daughter's disappearance, the McCanns needed to know if sedatives had been used?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 06:28:52 PM
The twins were closely monitored, being cuddled by trained doctors. There lives were not in danger, their sister's life however was in grave danger and that night she was the top priority.
Are you really suggesting a child who is suspected of having been given an unknown sedative can be properly monitored by being cuddled? Really? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 06:43:34 PM
A more illuminating question is why, if innocent of any part in their daughter's disappearance, the McCanns needed to know if sedatives had been used?
When your child has disappeared in mysterious circumstances it is natural for any parent to want to know as much as possible about what may have happened, nothing odd about that!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 06:44:42 PM
Are you really suggesting a child who is suspected of having been given an unknown sedative can be properly monitored by being cuddled? Really? @)(++(*
Please don't be silly. The children were in the arms of trained doctors. How much more closely could they have been monitored?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 06:54:44 PM
When your child has disappeared in mysterious circumstances it is natural for any parent to want to know as much as possible about what may have happened, nothing odd about that!
But why particularly sedation? Of all the questions they could have asked, why did sedation particularly interest them?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 06:57:00 PM
The GNR officers noticed the condition of the twins. The CSI officers must have seen the Calpol. In 2014 the Portuguese officers still seemed to believe Calpol is a sedative (Irish baby case). The PJ suspected the parents from the outset. Whydid the PJ not arrange for the twins to be tested? If the police were happy to ignore "evidence" under their noses at the outset, they were probably equally happy to ignore concerns expressed by distraught parents
The PJ missed a perfect opportunity to get to the bottom of this issue.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 06:58:33 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement has a slight confusion about it I find. Was it just Wednesday daytime she isn't at her apartment? If that was the case why didn't she hear what went on on Wednesday night if there was more crying? We need to look at this closer.
There is a thread dedicated to this topic already.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 06:59:26 PM
Please don't be silly. The children were in the arms of trained doctors. How much more closely could they have been monitored?
Makes you wonder why we take teenagers to be monitored in hospitals when unresponsive after ingesting an unknown substance. Why we spend on that money on equipment when all doctors really need to do is give the patient a little bit of a cuddle.
If I have ever heard anything more ridiculous on this forum I am failing to remember when.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 01, 2017, 07:02:41 PM
Please don't be silly. The children were in the arms of trained doctors. How much more closely could they have been monitored?
Monitoring just wasn't good enough, they should have been checked over and tested properly by impartial medics. We can forgive the lapse on the night Madeleine disappeared due to the trauma of the situation and the fact that the tapas group had been drinking but the twins should have been tested the following day.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 01, 2017, 07:07:04 PM
Monitoring just wasn't good enough, they should have been checked over and tested properly by impartial medics.
Kate said in her book she asked for the twins to be tested for drugs, why weren't they? Posters don't believe Kate asked for this to be done, but why lie in her book? Amaral hasn't come back and said she lied has he? Kate also mentioned the stain on the front of Madeleine's pyjama's the morning of the 3rd, all this was ignored. Until Amaral after the dogs alerted decided that the McCann's had drugged their children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 07:08:35 PM
Makes you wonder why we take teenagers to be monitored in hospitals when unresponsive after ingesting an unknown substance. Why we spend on that money on equipment when all doctors really need to do is give the patient a little bit of a cuddle.
If I have ever heard anything more ridiculous on this forum I am failing to remember when.
You think that two doctors closely monitoring two sleepy children by holding them in their arms is the most ridiculous thing you've heard? Wow. OK. The McCanns did not know for certain the kids had been drugged, also they were doctors. What equipment would the twins have been hooked up to in hospital that would have given a much better assessment of their condition than two trained doctors?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 07:13:05 PM
Monitoring just wasn't good enough, they should have been checked over and tested properly by impartial medics. We can forgive the lapse on the night Madeleine disappeared due to the trauma of the situation and the fact that the tapas group had been drinking but the twins should have been tested the following day.
Maybe so but the twins were fine the next day and their parents had other more pressing things on their mind.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 07:17:00 PM
Who said the McCanns regularly sedated their children? Not me certainly. As to why they drew attention to sedation it would certainly benefit the McCanns, if they were complicit in their daughter's disappearance, to be forewarned to what the PJ knew.
We must never forget that when the McCanns had the opportunity to clearly request tests for the twins in English to the FLOs they neither asked for those tests to be carried out nor did they specifically mention the unresponsive state of the twins on the 3rd.
I think you are wrong on that Faith. I think this specific point ahs been gone over on this thread in the past couple of days.
Please correct me, if I am remembering incorrectly
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 07:18:43 PM
You think that two doctors closely monitoring two sleepy children by holding them in their arms is the most ridiculous thing you've heard? Wow. OK. The McCanns did not know for certain the kids had been drugged, also they were doctors. What equipment would the twins have been hooked up to in hospital that would have given a much better assessment of their condition than two trained doctors?
From elsewhere but makes the point succinctly.
'for a range of conditions. It is a safe drug when used as prescribed but extremely dangerous in overdose. It is especially dangerous in children. (I am not going to name the class of drug - those in the know will probably recognise it, and I have no wish to give ideas to the cerebrally challenged element)
One symptom of overdose in children is unconsciousness or extreme drowsiness. This can occur quite soon after ingestion. During this time, the child may breathe normally.
However, some of the symptoms emerge during the first six hours and may not be present on initial presentation. These may include CNS disturbances, seizures and massive cardiac problems. As soon as overdose with this class of drugs is suspected, it is vitally important to begin cardiac monitoring so that any changes can be spotted.
SNIP
I don't expect everyone to understand how an ECG works, but I am sure people have seen them and seen the printouts. The best way to think of the heart is that it works a little like a 4-stroke engine. The timing with which different parts of the heart muscle contract and relax is vital - the ECG printout basically allows the medical team to see that it is working properly. None of that can be deduced from taking a pulse. If it could, we wouldn't have any need for ECG machines.
These changes may mean that drugs may need to be given to restore normal rhythm, or the heart shocked back into rhythm. The patient may stop breathing and require intubation and ventilation. Cardiac monitoring should be continued for at least 8 hours in all cases, and for 24 hours after a normal rhythm is established in patients with symptoms.
Many children die of overdose of prescription medication.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 07:19:10 PM
Then why are they concerned enough to ask the FLO about it? You really can't have it both ways.
And neither can you. This conversation is getting tiresome. I was accused of being very black and white by a moderator today. I think this accusation could certainly be levelled at you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 07:23:43 PM
'for a range of conditions. It is a safe drug when used as prescribed but extremely dangerous in overdose. It is especially dangerous in children. (I am not going to name the class of drug - those in the know will probably recognise it, and I have no wish to give ideas to the cerebrally challenged element)
One symptom of overdose in children is unconsciousness or extreme drowsiness. This can occur quite soon after ingestion. During this time, the child may breathe normally.
However, some of the symptoms emerge during the first six hours and may not be present on initial presentation. These may include CNS disturbances, seizures and massive cardiac problems. As soon as overdose with this class of drugs is suspected, it is vitally important to begin cardiac monitoring so that any changes can be spotted.
SNIP
I don't expect everyone to understand how an ECG works, but I am sure people have seen them and seen the printouts. The best way to think of the heart is that it works a little like a 4-stroke engine. The timing with which different parts of the heart muscle contract and relax is vital - the ECG printout basically allows the medical team to see that it is working properly. None of that can be deduced from taking a pulse. If it could, we wouldn't have any need for ECG machines.
These changes may mean that drugs may need to be given to restore normal rhythm, or the heart shocked back into rhythm. The patient may stop breathing and require intubation and ventilation. Cardiac monitoring should be continued for at least 8 hours in all cases, and for 24 hours after a normal rhythm is established in patients with symptoms.
Many children die of overdose of prescription medication.
cite? And of course Gerry was not just a doctor but a heart specialist, and Kate a one-time anaethetist but I'm sure neither would have been able to tell from monitoring them that their kids were on the verge of imminent death. &%+((£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 01, 2017, 07:28:15 PM
'for a range of conditions. It is a safe drug when used as prescribed but extremely dangerous in overdose. It is especially dangerous in children. (I am not going to name the class of drug - those in the know will probably recognise it, and I have no wish to give ideas to the cerebrally challenged element)
One symptom of overdose in children is unconsciousness or extreme drowsiness. This can occur quite soon after ingestion. During this time, the child may breathe normally.
However, some of the symptoms emerge during the first six hours and may not be present on initial presentation. These may include CNS disturbances, seizures and massive cardiac problems. As soon as overdose with this class of drugs is suspected, it is vitally important to begin cardiac monitoring so that any changes can be spotted.
SNIP
I don't expect everyone to understand how an ECG works, but I am sure people have seen them and seen the printouts. The best way to think of the heart is that it works a little like a 4-stroke engine. The timing with which different parts of the heart muscle contract and relax is vital - the ECG printout basically allows the medical team to see that it is working properly. None of that can be deduced from taking a pulse. If it could, we wouldn't have any need for ECG machines.
These changes may mean that drugs may need to be given to restore normal rhythm, or the heart shocked back into rhythm. The patient may stop breathing and require intubation and ventilation. Cardiac monitoring should be continued for at least 8 hours in all cases, and for 24 hours after a normal rhythm is established in patients with symptoms.
Many children die of overdose of prescription medication.
Are you honestly suggesting that the parents of Madeleine and the twins who happen to both be Dr.s not only give their children sedatives but over dosed on them? Come on, why the hell even bother to check on the children every half hour if they had given them enough sedative to knock them out for the night.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 07:30:19 PM
'for a range of conditions. It is a safe drug when used as prescribed but extremely dangerous in overdose. It is especially dangerous in children. (I am not going to name the class of drug - those in the know will probably recognise it, and I have no wish to give ideas to the cerebrally challenged element)
One symptom of overdose in children is unconsciousness or extreme drowsiness. This can occur quite soon after ingestion. During this time, the child may breathe normally.
However, some of the symptoms emerge during the first six hours and may not be present on initial presentation. These may include CNS disturbances, seizures and massive cardiac problems. As soon as overdose with this class of drugs is suspected, it is vitally important to begin cardiac monitoring so that any changes can be spotted.
SNIP
I don't expect everyone to understand how an ECG works, but I am sure people have seen them and seen the printouts. The best way to think of the heart is that it works a little like a 4-stroke engine. The timing with which different parts of the heart muscle contract and relax is vital - the ECG printout basically allows the medical team to see that it is working properly. None of that can be deduced from taking a pulse. If it could, we wouldn't have any need for ECG machines.
These changes may mean that drugs may need to be given to restore normal rhythm, or the heart shocked back into rhythm. The patient may stop breathing and require intubation and ventilation. Cardiac monitoring should be continued for at least 8 hours in all cases, and for 24 hours after a normal rhythm is established in patients with symptoms.
Many children die of overdose of prescription medication.
Are you suggesting the twins were about to have a heart attack ?
My father wasn't a doctor, but he always took some basic medical stuff away with him when we went on holiday as kids. Such things as a thermometer, aspirin, Glycerin and rose water etc.etc. Maybe the group of doctors had a fairly comprehensive mini pharmacy amongst them ?
Gerry is a heart specialist. His expertise at noticing the lead up symptoms of a heart attack would be equal to the best available.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree Faith. Soz.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 07:34:08 PM
Are you honestly suggesting that the parents of Madeleine and the twins who happen to both be Dr.s not only give their children sedatives but over dosed on them? Come on, why the hell even bother to check on the children every half hour if they had given them enough sedative to knock them out for the night.
FIthlilly seems to be suggesting that the overdosed their kids throughout the holiday and then raised the subject of sedation with the police More improbable events to add to the long list!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 01, 2017, 07:40:37 PM
FIthlilly seems to be suggesting that the overdosed their kids throughout the holiday and then raised the subject of sedation with the police More improbable events to add to the long list!
If the McCann's had sedated their children, then walking up and down placing your hand on the backs of the twins, asking the PJ for them to be tested for drugs, mentioning the stain and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when Sean and her cried, was really putting them off the scent wasn't it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 07:42:02 PM
If the McCann's had sedated their children, then walking up and down placing your hand on the backs of the twins, asking the PJ for them to be tested for drugs, mentioning the stain and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when Sean and her cried, was really putting them off the scent wasn't it?
Please cite the timings and sources for all those claims.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 07:48:04 PM
Then why are they concerned enough to ask the FLO about it? You really can't have it both ways.
Because they thought that if the twins had been sedated , then it might provide a clue to the PJ as to who had done it, so lead to finding their missing daughter
I still think the fact that Madeleine was so tired after her tea that ..
1) she had to be carried home + 2) all three of them being so tired that that particular night, they didn't meet up with their friends to play on the slide and climbing frame etc
.. could be very significant. Was something potent put in their hot chocolate/ horlicks / Ovaltine ?
I wonder if that is what The Mccanns were wondering too ? And they wanted the PJ to look into it ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 07:53:50 PM
If the McCann's had sedated their children, then walking up and down placing your hand on the backs of the twins, asking the PJ for them to be tested for drugs, mentioning the stain and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when Sean and her cried, was really putting them off the scent wasn't it?
That would depend entirely on what the truth was. Amaral developed his suspicions very early so may have thought they were just diversions and therefore didn't want to follow up on these observations and fears of the children's mother, father and friends.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 08:01:08 PM
And neither can you. This conversation is getting tiresome. I was accused of being very black and white by a moderator today. I think this accusation could certainly be levelled at you.
You said the McCanns weren't worried about the twins because they were okay the next morning yet in the next post you say they asked the FLO's about sedation because they were worried about the twins being in such a deep sleep. So what is it?
If you find it tiresome to answer about your ridiculous assertions perhaps you should not post them in the first place.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 08:14:53 PM
cite? And of course Gerry was not just a doctor but a heart specialist, and Kate a one-time anaethetist but I'm sure neither would have been able to tell from monitoring them that their kids were on the verge of imminent death. &%+((£
Tell me Alfie when looking at the way a patient's heart is performing does Gerry a) hook them up to complicated machines and interpret the resulting read outs or b) give them a cuddle and gauge their heart health from that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 08:17:47 PM
You said the McCanns weren't worried about the twins because they were okay the next morning yet in the next post you say they asked the FLO's about sedation because they were worried about the twins being in such a deep sleep. So what is it?
If you find it tiresome to answer about your ridiculous assertions perhaps you should not post them in the first place.
Whatever the McCanns did or didn't say to the police on the night of 3rd May, it would have been entirely in the PJ's best investigative interest to determine a)if the twins had been sedated & b)if so, the type of drug used.
Had any test results borne relation to any of the medication found in 5a, then they could be used in evidence against the parents. Otherwise........very poor policework.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 08:54:40 PM
Tell me Alfie when looking at the way a patient's heart is performing does Gerry a) hook them up to complicated machines and interpret the resulting read outs or b) give them a cuddle and gauge their heart health from that?
Alfie - I'd think it would depend on whether a machine is available or not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 08:58:34 PM
Tell me Alfie when looking at the way a patient's heart is performing does Gerry a) hook them up to complicated machines and interpret the resulting read outs or b) give them a cuddle and gauge their heart health from that?
Gerry will know the vital signs of heart problems without machines
Kate will know the vital signs of serious drugging without machines
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 01, 2017, 09:16:04 PM
Whatever the McCanns did or didn't say to the police on the night of 3rd May, it would have been entirely in the PJ's best investigative interest to determine a)if the twins had been sedated & b)if so, the type of drug used.
Had any test results borne relation to any of the medication found in 5a, then they could be used in evidence against the parents. Otherwise........very poor policework.
I don't disagree the police should have taken more notice of the twins unresponsive state and acted according. However it doesn't excuse the McCanns believing their children had been sedated and doing absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 09:32:28 PM
Gerry will know the vital signs of heart problems without machines
Kate will know the vital signs of serious drugging without machines
I know a bit about cardiology having spent the last six months visiting cardiologists with my husband. There are symptoms which could indicate heart problems, but they have to be investigated further to confirm what is going on. The further investigations involve machines; x rays, blood pressure, heart rate and then it gets very complicated with scans and other procedures. As far as I know it's impossible for any doctor to check vital signs without at least some equipment, that's just nonsense.
If sedation is suspected there is a very simple first test. The person concerned must be roused. That simple test was not applied. Had it been and the twins wouldn't respond then other tests would have been required to discover the level of unconsciousness. None of them include feeling backs for breathing or sticking your fingers under noses to feel for breath.
The equipment needed to check vital signs is a thermometer, a sphygmomanometer, and a watch. Though a pulse can be taken by hand, a stethoscope may be required for a patient with a very weak pulse. There is no evidence that any of the twin's vital signs were checked.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: carlymichelle on January 01, 2017, 09:36:52 PM
i have a high pulserate which is normal for me and my dr is aware of it but a stranger wouldnt be aware of it would they??
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 01, 2017, 09:39:32 PM
I don't disagree the police should have taken more notice of the twins unresponsive state and acted according. However it doesn't excuse the McCanns believing their children had been sedated and doing absolutely nothing.
Maybe they did enough and once they got through the crisis they asked "if there was any evidence the twins had been sedated?". Obviously the answer to that was "no" - unsaid by the PJ "because we aren't going to look". Part of this "not being told what to do attitude", I'd suspect.
Never heard of them sorry I'll have to resort to Google. "In the fictional Star Trek universe, a tricorder is a multifunction hand-held device used for sensor scanning, data analysis, and recording data." I'm in the real world Stephen but it would have come in handy.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 01, 2017, 09:47:32 PM
I don't disagree the police should have taken more notice of the twins unresponsive state and acted according. However it doesn't excuse the McCanns believing their children had been sedated and doing absolutely nothing.
There's a world of difference between suspecting & believing. The choice was stark. Leave the scene of your eldest child's disappearance or take your other children for a barrage of tests & remain with them. What would you have done?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 01, 2017, 09:48:53 PM
Have them tested a few days later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 01, 2017, 09:52:00 PM
Maybe they did enough and once they got through the crisis they asked "if there was any evidence the twins had been sedated?". Obviously the answer to that was "no" - unsaid by the PJ "because we aren't going to look". Part of this "not being told what to do attitude", I'd suspect. Never heard of them sorry I'll have to resort to Google. "In the fictional Star Trek universe, a tricorder is a multifunction hand-held device used for sensor scanning, data analysis, and recording data." I'm in the real world Stephen but it would have come in handy.
There's a world of difference between suspecting & believing. The choice was stark. Leave the scene of your eldest child's disappearance or take your other children for a barrage of tests & remain with them. What would you have done?
So exactly what were the McCanns doing when not alerting anyone who would be useful that their remaining children were suspiciously unresponsive? Ah yes, praying and phoning family and friends thousands of miles away who could do nothing useful.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 01, 2017, 10:06:50 PM
Look yourself. It has been well chewed over in the past couple of days.
We have a book from 2011. A query with a FLO asking if the "abductor" had used a substance. A statement on the 7th...
When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later.
No "please check the kids".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 10:30:54 PM
How did the Mccann's analyse blood or tissuwe samples to check whether their children has been exposed to any pharmaceuticals or anesthetics ?
I didn't say that. What i said was that the cardiologist (Gerry) would be able to recognise vital signs of heart problems. Someone suggested about heart problems IIRC
And the aneathatist (Kate) would be able to recognise any vital signs of breathing problems
Then there was a raft of other doctors to help if any other signs showed.
They had the situation under control BUT THEY WANTED THE PJ TO TEST to see if the twins had any sedative in their bodies. Because that could have pointed towards the involvement of the staff making and serving tea.
Seems that for some reason either Amaral couldn't be bothered, or ... did not want them tested &%+((£
All IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 01, 2017, 10:34:46 PM
I didn't say that. What i said was that the cardiologist (Gerry) would be able to recognise vital signs of heart problems. Someone suggested about heart problems IIRC
And the aneathatist (Kate) would be able to recognise any vital signs of breathing problems
Then there was a raft of other doctors to help if any other signs showed.
They had the situation under control BUT THEY WANTED THE PJ TO TEST to see if the twins had any sedative in their bodies. Because that could have pointed towards the involvement of the staff making and serving tea.
Seems that for some reason either Amaral couldn't be bothered, or ... did not want them tested &%+((£
All IMO
Utter rubbish Sadie..
You really need to read up on these matters.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 01, 2017, 10:35:09 PM
We have a book from 2011. A query with a FLO asking if the "abductor" had used a substance. A statement on the 5th...
When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later.
No "please check the kids".
A book from 2011 ? A statement on the 5th ?
I agree with him it is not normal that children are drugged but then this case is not normal in any way
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 10:36:34 PM
I didn't say that. What i said was that the cardiologist (Gerry) would be able to recognise vital signs of heart problems. Someone suggested about heart problems IIRC
And the aneathatist (Kate) would be able to recognise any vital signs of breathing problems
Then there was a raft of other doctors to help if any other signs showed.
They had the situation under control BUT THEY WANTED THE PJ TO TEST to see if the twins had any sedative in their bodies. Because that could have pointed towards the involvement of the staff making and serving tea.
Seems that for some reason either Amaral couldn't be bothered, or ... did not want them tested &%+((£
All IMO
Did they have a stethoscope on them?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 10:37:19 PM
You said the McCanns weren't worried about the twins because they were okay the next morning yet in the next post you say they asked the FLO's about sedation because they were worried about the twins being in such a deep sleep. So what is it?
If you find it tiresome to answer about your ridiculous assertions perhaps you should not post them in the first place.
There is nothing ridiculous about what I have posted. Try more understanding and less ridiculing. The morning after Madeleine's disappearance the twins were awake and functioning normally. No immediate danger to them. Their sister however was still missing and this was the McCanns' primary concern. In their opinion all their children may have been sedated by an abductor and so they raised this concern with the police as it may have been an important factor in the disapparance. Which bit of this do you find especially ridiculous?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 01, 2017, 10:37:39 PM
There is nothing ridiculous a out what I have posted. Try more understanding and less ridiculing. The morning after Madeleine's disappearance the twins were awake and functioning normally. No immediate danger to them. Their sister however was still missing and this was the McCanns' primary concern. In their opinion all their children may have been sedated by an abductor and so they raised this concern with the police as it may have been an important factor in the disapparance. Which bit of this do you find especially ridiculous?
The time to act was not in the morning when they could see the twins were fine but on the night of the third when they were totally unresponsive. They were damn lucky their children didn't suffer any long term effects. If they had acted in the same way when doing their job they would have been struck off.
As to raising their concerns about the twins unresponsive state a couple of days before, they didn't. They asked whether anything pointed to a sedative being used in their daughter's disappearance. They made no mention of the twins, suspicious I'm sure you'll agree, in the circumstances. They asked for no test even though you claim they mentioned sedation to the FLOs in case it was an important factor in the disappearance. Wouldn't finding out what was administered and how it was administered be helpful to the enquiry?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 10:53:38 PM
The time to act was not in the morning when they could see the twins were fine but on the night of the third when they were totally unresponsive. They were damn lucky their children didn't suffer any long term effects. If they had acted in the same way when doing their job they would have been struck off.
As to raising their concerns about the twins unresponsive state a couple of days before, they didn't. They asked whether anything pointed to a sedative being used in their daughter's disappearance. They made no mention of the twins, suspicious I'm sure you'll agree, in the circumstances. They asked for no test even though you claim they mentioned sedation to the FLOs in case it was an important factor in the disappearance. Wouldn't finding out what was administered and how it was administered be helpful to the enquiry?
Exactly, so why didn't the police do so? Talk about negligent!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 10:55:28 PM
Doctors are quite clever I believe, or can they only tell the state of a child's health by hooking them up to "complicated machines"?
Necessity being the mother of invention one wonders why anyone would bother to waste their time inventing such "complicated machines" [your terminaolgy not mine] if they could be dispensed with when doctors were around.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 01, 2017, 11:12:25 PM
It seems that you are of the opinion that the McCanns gave all their children dangerous levels of some mystery drug that only acts as a sedative when given to excess and is especially dangerous when given to children. It seems you believe that the McCanns discovered one of their kids dead as adirect or indirect result and were quite prepared to let both their other kids die in their arms that night. Just what sort of monsters do you actually think these people are?! Previously you have claimed that the McCanns were generally loving and caring parents, but how could yumpossibly hold that view? They can only be described as evil and sick if you truly believe they would do that. So come on, cut to the chase.
I'm merely stating facts. Two physicians, one trained in anaesthetics, found two unresponsive children who they believed had had an unknown drug administered yet did nothing to inform anyone in an official capacity of their concerns. As a doctor if you had done that in any ER department you would have been the subject of, at the very least, disciplinary action. Can you argue with any of that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 01, 2017, 11:16:13 PM
I didn't say that. What i said was that the cardiologist (Gerry) would be able to recognise vital signs of heart problems. Someone suggested about heart problems IIRC
And the aneathatist (Kate) would be able to recognise any vital signs of breathing problems
Then there was a raft of other doctors to help if any other signs showed.
They had the situation under control BUT THEY WANTED THE PJ TO TEST to see if the twins had any sedative in their bodies. Because that could have pointed towards the involvement of the staff making and serving tea.
Seems that for some reason either Amaral couldn't be bothered, or ... did not want them tested &%+((£
All IMO
Please provide your evidence showing that either of the parents asked any PJ officer at any point to test the twins for sedation. Even Kate McCann has never claimed she asked the GNR or the PJ to do that.
Two FLO's say they mentioned sedation, but not in relation to testing the twins, it was evidence already in the PJ's possession they were interested in.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Please provide your evidence showing that either of the parents asked any PJ officer at any point to test the twins for sedation. Even Kate McCann has never claimed she asked the GNR or the PJ to do that.
Two FLO's say they mentioned sedation, but not in relation to testing the twins, it was evidence already in the PJ's possession they were interested in.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
OK the twins are not specifically mentioned but if for a moment the PJ think that the sedation of the twins might facilitate the abduction they would logically be the ones to test, for Madeleine isn't there is she.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 11:29:18 PM
I'm merely stating facts. Two physicians, one trained in anaesthetics, found two unresponsive children who they believed had had an unknown drug administered yet did nothing to inform anyone in an official capacity of their concerns. As a doctor if you had done that in any ER department you would have been the subject of, at the very least, disciplinary action. Can you argue with any of that?
You are not thinkng logically IMO. I have already said what I think. I have already pointed out the extraordinary circumstances they found themselves in, and the fact that there were probably more doctors in Apartment 5a that night than there were on call in the local hospital. Doctors can and do monitor the health of patients without the need to always hook them up to "complicated machines". The fact is the McCanns DID draw attention to possible sedation of the children which certainly is not something I would do if I had been regularly administering overdses of a mystery drug to my own children. It's inviting the authorities to uncover their evil secret and certain to make them strongly suspect they had a hand in their child's disappearance.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 01, 2017, 11:34:46 PM
You must accept it didn't happen. So the only bit is that they asked for it and that is coveredf in G-unit's post.
OK the twins are not specifically mentioned but if for a moment the PJ think that the sedation of the twins might facilitate the abduction they would logically be the ones to test, for Madeleine isn't there is she.
They asked the FLO's if the PJ had any evidence that Madeleine was drugged. We don't know if they asked the PJ, but if they did the answer was no, the PJ didn't have any evidence. Had they raised their 'fears' about the twins the PJ may have suggested testing them, but they weren't told about the twins. As far as they knew the twins were sleeping naturally.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 01, 2017, 11:39:04 PM
Wouldn't the PJ require written consent from the parents and /or a court order to carry out any form of medical tests ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 01, 2017, 11:46:58 PM
The gist of the argument here seems to be that the McCanns were so negligent, evil even that they were prepared to let their kids die in their arms the night Madeleine went missing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 01, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
You are not thinkng logically IMO. I have already said what I think. I have already pointed out the extraordinary circumstances they found themselves in, and the fact that there were probably more doctors in Apartment 5a that night than there were on call in the local hospital. Doctors can and do monitor the health of patients without the need to always hook them up to "complicated machines". The fact is the McCanns DID draw attention to possible sedation of the children which certainly is not something I would do if I had been regularly administering overdses of a mystery drug to my own children. It's inviting the authorities to uncover their evil secret and certain to make them strongly suspect they had a hand in their child's disappearance.
It is illogical to suggest that doctors can monitor health without the use of some basic equipment. That's why vital signs are the first check done by paramedics and A & E staff. That's why nurses do obs at regular intervals. Ambulance staff carry ECG machines to check the heart on the spot. Anyone who thinks doctors can cope without tools needs to get real.
Kate McCann says she drew the attention of the GNR officers to her fears of sedation, but there is no supporting evidence that she did so.
The parents asked the FLO's if the PJ had any evidence that Madeleine, not 'the children' was drugged. If it didn't make the UK police officers suspicious, why do people think it would make the PJ suspicious?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 01, 2017, 11:58:23 PM
The gist of the argument here seems to be that the McCanns were so negligent, evil even that they were prepared to let their kids die in their arms the night Madeleine went missing.
Despite the belief of some that doctors can magically make diagnoses by looking, touching or cuddling, the fact is they can't. After looking and touching Kate McCann says she feared her twins had been sedated. She didn't diagnose it, she feared it. A rank amateur finding someone in a very deep sleep who doesn't waken when they should knows to shake them to check them. For a doctor not to take that step is beyond belief if she truly feared they had been sedated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:03:40 AM
It is illogical to suggest that doctors can monitor health without the use of some basic equipment. That's why vital signs are the first check done by paramedics and A & E staff. That's why nurses do obs at regular intervals. Ambulance staff carry ECG machines to check the heart on the spot. Anyone who thinks doctors can cope without tools needs to get real.
Kate McCann says she drew the attention of the GNR officers to her fears of sedation, but there is no supporting evidence that she did so.
The parents asked the FLO's if the PJ had any evidence that Madeleine, not 'the children' was drugged. If it didn't make the UK police officers suspicious, why do people think it would make the PJ suspicious?
Are you telling me that doctors are unable to tell if a person's pulse rate or breathing is irregular or abnormal without equipment?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:05:25 AM
Despite the belief of some that doctors can magically make diagnoses by looking, touching or cuddling, the fact is they can't. After looking and touching Kate McCann says she feared her twins had been sedated. She didn't diagnose it, she feared it. A rank amateur finding someone in a very deep sleep who doesn't waken when they should knows to shake them to check them. For a doctor not to take that step is beyond belief if she truly feared they had been sedated.
When I go to my GP with a medical complaint I am rarely if ever hooked up to complicated machines. Diagnoses are nearly always done as a result of touching, listening and looking (no cuddles for me sadly).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:06:42 AM
Despite the belief of some that doctors can magically make diagnoses by looking, touching or cuddling, the fact is they can't. After looking and touching Kate McCann says she feared her twins had been sedated. She didn't diagnose it, she feared it. A rank amateur finding someone in a very deep sleep who doesn't waken when they should knows to shake them to check them. For a doctor not to take that step is beyond belief if she truly feared they had been sedated.
So what can we take away from this discussion, apart from it being another opportunity to harp on and criticise? Can we draw any inferences or conclusions do you think?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 02, 2017, 12:08:43 AM
Despite the belief of some that doctors can magically make diagnoses by looking, touching or cuddling, the fact is they can't. After looking and touching Kate McCann says she feared her twins had been sedated. She didn't diagnose it, she feared it. A rank amateur finding someone in a very deep sleep who doesn't waken when they should knows to shake them to check them. For a doctor not to take that step is beyond belief if she truly feared they had been sedated.
The addition of 2 screaming toddlers would have really helped the situation at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:14:14 AM
It's amazing that this apparent negligence wasn't investigated by the authorities to get those poor twins taken into care. Fancy them being allowed to be brought up by two such monsters!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 12:16:51 AM
I'm merely stating facts. Two physicians, one trained in anaesthetics, found two unresponsive children who they believed had had an unknown drug administered yet did nothing to inform anyone in an official capacity of their concerns. As a doctor if you had done that in any ER department you would have been the subject of, at the very least, disciplinary action. Can you argue with any of that?
Were they officially unresponsive, or were they just sleeping very deeply?
The first term 'Unresponsive' suggests that tests were done on them to ascertain this.
I am not aware of any tests being done. Are you ?
Where does the term 'unresponsive' as applied to the twins originate?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 12:27:47 AM
Please provide your evidence showing that either of the parents asked any PJ officer at any point to test the twins for sedation. Even Kate McCann has never claimed she asked the GNR or the PJ to do that.
Two FLO's say they mentioned sedation, but not in relation to testing the twins, it was evidence already in the PJ's possession they were interested in.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
IIRC one of the first GNR Officers in mentioned the way that the twins were so quiet and sleeping so soudly. Was it the senior GNR officer who reported this? His report went in to Amaral, did it not?
Why was there no action ?
If I have any of this wrong, I am sure someone will shoot me down
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:35:36 AM
IIRC one of the first GNR Officers in mentioned the way that the twins were so quiet and sleeping so soudly. Was it the senior GNR officer who reported this? His report went in to Amaral, did it not?
Why was there no action ?
If I have any of this wrong, I am sure someone will shoot me down
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa – Statement, 17 October 2007 He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 12:45:29 AM
IIRC one of the first GNR Officers in mentioned the way that the twins were so quiet and sleeping so soudly. Was it the senior GNR officer who reported this? His report went in to Amaral, did it not?
Why was there no action ?
If I have any of this wrong, I am sure someone will shoot me down
Here we are http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm
-snip- He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine's room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made. -snip-
ETA http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
-snip- He says there were two children in cots placed in Madeleine's room in a transversal position to the beds. The children never woke up, were in a ventral position, they did not even move during or after the search. -snip-
So two officers, in their statements, alerted to the fact that the twins slept unusually deeply, not even waking up with all the noise.
Why didn't Amaral and co notice that right at the beginning ... and do detective work to find out why they slept so deeply
Why was none done after Kate mentioned their fears of a sedative having been administered?
Why why why ? Doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 01:59:28 AM
It is illogical to suggest that doctors can monitor health without the use of some basic equipment. That's why vital signs are the first check done by paramedics and A & E staff. That's why nurses do obs at regular intervals. Ambulance staff carry ECG machines to check the heart on the spot. Anyone who thinks doctors can cope without tools needs to get real.
Kate McCann says she drew the attention of the GNR officers to her fears of sedation, but there is no supporting evidence that she did so.
The parents asked the FLO's if the PJ had any evidence that Madeleine, not 'the children' was drugged. If it didn't make the UK police officers suspicious, why do people think it would make the PJ suspicious?
I am real Why would you need an ecg to check a child who was sedated I have extensive training in sedation and life support so can speak with authority but once again you think you know more than professionals
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 02:15:28 AM
I am real Why would you need an ecg to check a child who was sedated I have extensive training in sedation and life support so can speak with authority but once again you think you know more than professionals
So what would you have done in your experience?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 02:49:49 AM
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa – Statement, 17 October 2007 He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine’s room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made.
In his earlier statements there is no mention about the twins, but in the later statement Date: 17-10-2007 there is. So that just goes to show how early on it is possible to have relevant observations missed from statements. In Da Costa's 07 May statement he says "Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor;..." and "And nothing more said, having read the statement, finds it in conformity and signs it;...." a fairly standard sign off. Yet later he states 17th Oct too late to do tests he states "He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine's room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made".
The http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm statement mentioning the twins is also on the 17 October 2007. There is no earlier one from Roque but surely he had sooner and more timely debriefs with his management. So things said in October would have been able to be raised earlier.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 02:59:12 AM
Please provide your evidence showing that either of the parents asked any PJ officer at any point to test the twins for sedation. Even Kate McCann has never claimed she asked the GNR or the PJ to do that.
Two FLO's say they mentioned sedation, but not in relation to testing the twins, it was evidence already in the PJ's possession they were interested in.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
The wording of those two statements are very similar Markley "My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction."
Jim McGarvey" "My reply to the question: No.
In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction."
OK it isn't a cut and paste but is surprisingly similar. Question is whether the British liaison officers had timely contact with the PJ after the meeting with Kate and Gerry.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 03:22:15 AM
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 03:38:15 AM
In a letter outlining the steps the PJ took to the British liaison team it is stated "-Meanwhile, investigations were going on in order to collect all kinds of information, always having in view to work out all possible scenarios. Countless investigations were carried out, in order to confirm or invalidate the several clues concerning a possible abduction." From http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#rr20
The fact that no toxicological tests were performed on the twins shows that they missed an important line of enquiry. All the rogatory questions were issued on/by "Portimao 12-03-2008 The Public Prosecutor Dr Jose de Magalhaes e Menezes"
There are several statements from family and friends being asked about drug use not in the file.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_75.jpg one whole paragraph is not translated but is placed by *** in the McCann file translations.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 04:05:05 AM
I see you have ignored the fact that information essential to working out what happened to Madeleine does not appear in Kate or Gerry's statements.
Pity for Madeleine.
Was Kate given the opportunity to make a statement soon after the 4th? If they don't take statements from her don't blame us for not being able to show what she was asking for.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 04:07:33 AM
So Gerry, all their tapas friends including FP who was with Kate all night, all the PJ and GNR officers and SB all failed to report Kate expressing to the PJ officer her concerns for the twins? Do you actually believe that?
It is hard to believe it wasn't done deliberately by the PJ to have no trace of this in their statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 04:09:30 AM
Well let's see shall we. We all know Kate thought the child was kidnapped, is that thought written in her statement? No sign of the word "kidnapped" or "abducted", even the word "taken" is only used once in another attached document " that a mouth swab be taken ....". So if those genuine thoughts of Kate aren't included why do we expect the PJ are going to allow the words "drugged" or "sedated"?
Interesting are the two French words "Enfants Kidnapp' 26/08/08" at the end of Kate's statement.
I'll repeat this as it shows how hard it is for the witnesses to introduce ideas into their statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 04:11:12 AM
Yet Gerry, none of their friends, no police officers or more importantly SB, who would have to have translated their concerns, mention this shocking lack of duty of care by the PJ. Sounds like another one of those improbable events to me Alfie.
It is not so improbable when you consider the conflict of interest being dealt with by Silvia Batista. Head of the OC Childcare services and a child gone missing on her watch. 7852.135
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 05:50:27 AM
Please provide your evidence showing that either of the parents asked any PJ officer at any point to test the twins for sedation. Even Kate McCann has never claimed she asked the GNR or the PJ to do that.
Two FLO's say they mentioned sedation, but not in relation to testing the twins, it was evidence already in the PJ's possession they were interested in.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
From this report http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm it emphasises the cooperation between the British and Portuguese teams: "Shortly after the beginning of the investigation continuous relationships with the Leicestershire Constabulary, which, for the effect, sent several of its officers to Portugal, with the PJ equally sending officers to the United Kingdom, were established, and intense cooperation and understanding was registered between these entities, which were united in the common purpose of searching for the missing child, and for the truth." So if it was brought up by the McCanns why was the aspect of possible sedative use not actively followed up? I have no real answer to this for it was asked for by the McCanns so whatever the result was it not be considered an embarrassment to them to provide the required blood or hair samples.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 06:19:30 AM
It is not so improbable when you consider the conflict of interest being dealt with by Silvia Batista. Head of the OC Childcare services and a child gone missing on her watch. 7852.135
"It further results from the files that, despite the fact that the 'Ocean Club' resort's crêche offers a complimentary dining out service from 7.30 until 11.30 p.m., at an additional cost, apart from another babysitting service with no defined schedule [22], the members of this group of friends with children chose to do their own checking on the children during dinner. During a first phase, each couple took turns among them to check on their own children, and as the days went by, they started to ask one of the members that got up, to listen whether there was any noise in their apartment, as Jane Tanner mentioned during questioning on the 10th of May 2007 [23], with the exception of the David and Fiona Payne couple, who possessed an intercom system to watch over their children Lilly Payne and Scarlett Payne. " Does this do it yourself (DIY) child minding an affront to the services provided by the OC? It is a bit confusing whether it was free or an additional cost. So it sounds like someone is missing out when it is DIY.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 06:32:39 AM
It seems that the investigation has taken the truth of this "It is so much so that Kate herself mentions that on Thursday morning, the 3rd, Madeleine questioned her about the reason why they didn't come to her room, given the fact that the twins had cried [26], as was also mentioned by Gerald." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm But doesn't concede that the meaning of what Madeleine was saying that someone else had comforted the kids on the Wednesday night. Or that this was one of two questions specifically proposed by Gerry and Kate via the Liaison group.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 06:40:44 AM
What Have I found the smoking gun?
"Finally, the fact that, despite all that confusion and all that noise, the twins continued to sleep, as mentioned by GNR Officer José Maria Baptista Roque, a member of the patrol that was first to arrive at the apartment "the children never woke up, remaining in a ventral decubitus position, not moving during the search and afterwards" [28], remains unexplained. Nevertheless, a Team from the Criminal Police Lab, on the 4th of May 2007, eliminated the existence of any product that could have been ministered to the missing child, in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness, as well as the presence of blood traces.
What does that mean - did the police actually do tests, but on who and what are these blood traces being spoken of? I've never heard of blood traces being found on the 4th. Not quite the same as taking blood samples from the twin siblings.
Later in the same document it states "The PJ specialist team, which went to the site to collect evidence, excluded the existence of any product that could have been administered to the missing girl in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness nor the presence of blood traces.
So basically they didn't find any chemical traces or blood traces, but they still didn't consider whether they thought the twins were doped either.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 06:58:47 AM
Another victory! I had a feeling there was evidence that Matt and Russell had left the table for some as yet unexplained reason it states in the Summary document : "At 21.10, given her husband’s absence, Jane Tanner went to check on the state of her daughter. She left by the reception and walked up the road that passes the entrance to the apartment block. She was not seen by Gerald McCann, nor by Jeremy Wilkins, although she did see them. Gerald had his back to her, however Wilkins was facing the place where Tanner passed."
No one has ever noticed that Jane did her check in her husband's absence. "At 21.10, given her husband’s absence" What was he doing?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 07:55:18 AM
So where in the official files from statements by the McCann's, their associates , or the PJ, does it say...
Madeleine's siblings were unresponsive ?
She believed they may have been drugged?
She repeatedly checked their breathing?
She alerted the police to this when they arrived ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 07:56:35 AM
A cite is required here...........
' I am real Why would you need an ecg to check a child who was sedated I have extensive training in sedation and life support so can speak with authority but once again you think you know more than professionals '
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 AM
'Exactly what Kate did'
Well nothing in official statements.
In her book maybe. Not quite the same as reality.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 08:16:59 AM
So where in the official files from statements by the McCann's, their associates , or the PJ, does it say...
Madeleine's siblings were unresponsive ?
She believed they may have been drugged?
She repeatedly checked their breathing?
She alerted the police to this when they arrived ?
Haven't you understood that it is not the deponents who write the statements. The translator was working for the PJ so they would write down what the PJ wanted written down. So we might see evidence of what really happened in the rogatory statements taken over a year after the event. But that is not what I was trying to discover in this study. You can go through the rogatory statements and find what you want to find yourself. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg371360#msg371360 covers most of what you want.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 08:21:16 AM
Were they officially unresponsive, or were they just sleeping very deeply?
The first term 'Unresponsive' suggests that tests were done on them to ascertain this.
I am not aware of any tests being done. Are you ?
Where does the term 'unresponsive' as applied to the twins originate?
In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. [Madeleine]
The children's mother thought it seemed unnatural that the twins didn't respond to noise, lights and pandemonium. So unnatural that she checked for signs of life. You check for signs of life only if you think someone may have died, so Kate thought it possible that her children were dead in their cots.
She found that they were breathing though, so did nothing further except wonder if they had been sedated. If they had been, the drug was unknown and the dosage was unknown. The fact that the children were breathing at that moment didn't mean they would be breathing when she next checked them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Were they officially unresponsive, or were they just sleeping very deeply?
The first term 'Unresponsive' suggests that tests were done on them to ascertain this.
I am not aware of any tests being done. Are you ?
Where does the term 'unresponsive' as applied to the twins originate?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg372711#msg372711 the words quoted there could imply some testing or was it just searching for pills?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 08:29:49 AM
In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. [Madeleine]
The children's mother thought it seemed unnatural that the twins didn't respond to noise, lights and pandemonium. So unnatural that she checked for signs of life. You check for signs of life only if you think someone may have died, so Kate thought it possible that her children were dead in their cots.
She found that they were breathing though, so did nothing further except wonder if they had been sedated. If they had been, the drug was unknown and the dosage was unknown. The fact that the children were breathing at that moment didn't mean they would be breathing when she next checked them.
What drugs would hit harder an hour later?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 08:31:20 AM
Haven't you understood that it is not the deponents who write the statements. The translator was working for the PJ so they would write down what the PJ wanted written down. So we might see evidence of what really happened in the rogatory statements taken over a year after the event. But that is not what I was trying to discover in this study. You can go through the rogatory statements and find what you want to find yourself. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg371360#msg371360 covers most of what you want.
She made no such claim in her statements and neither did anyone else.
What they did a year later is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 08:32:21 AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg372711#msg372711 the words quoted there could imply some testing or was it just searching for pills?
Testing ?
In what way ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 08:36:33 AM
What does "The PJ specialist team, which went to the site to collect evidence, excluded the existence of any product that could have been administered to the missing girl in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness nor the presence of blood traces."
Did they swab surfaces or something? How did they exclude "the existence of any product that could have been administered to the missing girl in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness"?
Surely that means testing doesn't it, or was it just looking for an empty pill bottle, or what? (Could also be spills, powders, liquids in bottles, sachets.) But the nil presence of these items does not exclude "the existence of any product that could have been administered to the missing girl in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness"? But they could still say "yes it does for none of the substance still existed in the apartment".
Testing ? In what way? Answer: Ask the PJ!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 08:46:27 AM
The PJ asks the question and the interpreter asks the deponent. The deponent answers and the interpreter tells the PJ the answer. What does the person recording the statement write down?
Here is an example from Jane's statement "After checking on her daughters, she returned to the restaurant. On her way back Gerry was no longer talking in the place where she had seen him." So this is the PJ's version of what Jane has said.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
The PJ asks the question and the interpreter asks the deponent. The deponent answers and the interpreter tells the PJ the answer. What does the person recording the statement write down?
Here is an example from Jane's statement "After checking on her daughters, she returned to the restaurant. On her way back Gerry was no longer talking in the place where she had seen him." So this is the PJ's version of what Jane has said.
Yet again.....
So where in the official files from statements by the McCann's, their associates , or the PJ, does it say...
Madeleine's siblings were unresponsive ?
She believed they may have been drugged?
She repeatedly checked their breathing?
She alerted the police to this when they arrived ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
So where in the official files from statements by the McCann's, their associates , or the PJ, does it say...
Madeleine's siblings were unresponsive ?
She believed they may have been drugged?
She repeatedly checked their breathing?
She alerted the police to this when they arrived ?
Can you tel us how you know Kate didn't mention all these things but they were no written down Kate was interviewed for about 15 hours or more yet her statements can be read in minutes
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2017, 11:01:42 AM
Another victory! I had a feeling there was evidence that Matt and Russell had left the table for some as yet unexplained reason it states in the Summary document : "At 21.10, given her husband’s absence, Jane Tanner went to check on the state of her daughter. She left by the reception and walked up the road that passes the entrance to the apartment block. She was not seen by Gerald McCann, nor by Jeremy Wilkins, although she did see them. Gerald had his back to her, however Wilkins was facing the place where Tanner passed."
No one has ever noticed that Jane did her check in her husband's absence. "At 21.10, given her husband’s absence" What was he doing?
Russell was at the table. The only person missing from the table when Jane left was Gerry. Watching football they thought - they were wrong ?>)()<
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 11:06:54 AM
Can you tel us how you know Kate didn't mention all these things but they were no written down Kate was interviewed for about 15 hours or more yet her statements can be read in minutes
Can you try that in English.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 11:15:18 AM
When I go to my GP with a medical complaint I am rarely if ever hooked up to complicated machines. Diagnoses are nearly always done as a result of touching, listening and looking (no cuddles for me sadly).
Are you usually sedated with an unknown agent ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 11:48:13 AM
Irrelevant. The discussion was concerning the ability of doctors to check vital signs without the use of "complicated machines". Is it possible or not, in your view?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
"The McCanns are uncaring monsters because either 1) they sedated their kids and didn't care if they lived or died or 2) they were concerned that their kids might have been sedated by an abductor but still didn't care enough whether they lived or died" - is this the position of those currently criticising them on this thread?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 12:01:44 PM
So what can we take away from this discussion, apart from it being another opportunity to harp on and criticise? Can we draw any inferences or conclusions do you think?
That the OP that kicked it off was based on two newspaper articles, the accuracy and provenance of neither being known, a bit of fill in text by Robbitybob and off it goes shoving out pseodopodia in all diections like so many demented amoebae. I incline to the view that what we know now is no more nor less than was known in 2008 after the files were released.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 12:05:20 PM
Irrelevant. The discussion was concerning the ability of doctors to check vital signs without the use of "complicated machines". Is it possible or not, in your view?
No the discussion is that when presented with an unresponsive child who you believe has ingested an unknown substance would it be possible just by eye and touch to gauge the damage it had done or was doing. Of course the sensible answer to that is no.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:07:09 PM
No the discussion is that when presented with an unresponsive child who you believe has ingested an unknown substance would it be possible just by eye and touch to gauge the damage it had done or was doing. Of course the sensible answer to that is no.
Of course you are the expert so we must defer to your greater knowledge.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 12:07:26 PM
It is not so improbable when you consider the conflict of interest being dealt with by Silvia Batista. Head of the OC Childcare services and a child gone missing on her watch. 7852.135
Strictly speaking it was outside her remit. Would you care to delineate this conflict of interest wrt Sra Batista, that you persistently refer to?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:08:14 PM
That the OP that kicked it off was based on two newspaper articles, the accuracy and provenance of neither being known, a bit of fill in text by Robbitybob and off it goes shoving out pseodopodia in all diections like so many demented amoebae. I incline to the view that what we know now is no more nor less than was known in 2008 after the files were released.
Thanks for that illuminating contribution to the debate.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 12:17:00 PM
I am glad you found it illuminating. What is your detailed analysis of the debate to date then?
My analysis is that mountains are once again being made out of molehills for the sole purpose of denigrating Kate McCann. Plus ca change and all that...
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
Strictly speaking it was outside her remit. Would you care to delineate this conflict of interest wrt Sra Batista, that you persistently refer to?
If I may intrude here - SB was responsible for the people who had access to the apartments & vitally, who had access to the apartment keys on behalf of OC. Is that a conflict of interest?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 12:47:33 PM
Irrelevant. The discussion was concerning the ability of doctors to check vital signs without the use of "complicated machines". Is it possible or not, in your view?
The vital signs are blood pressure, temperature, pulse rate and breathing rate. Equipment is needed, but not complicated machines. The equipment needed is a thermometer, a sphygmomanometer, and a watch.
Nowhere does it say that the twin's vital signs were checked. The only recorded check was to see if they were breathing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 12:57:42 PM
The vital signs are blood pressure, temperature, pulse rate and breathing rate. Equipment is needed, but not complicated machines. The equipment needed is a thermometer, a sphygmomanometer, and a watch.
Nowhere does it say that the twin's vital signs were checked. The only recorded check was to see if they were breathing.
An experienced doctor is able to judge whether the pulse rate, temperature and breathing of a patient is normal without any equipment at all, do you not agree?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 01:25:06 PM
The vital signs are blood pressure, temperature, pulse rate and breathing rate. Equipment is needed, but not complicated machines. The equipment needed is a thermometer, a sphygmomanometer, and a watch.
Nowhere does it say that the twin's vital signs were checked. The only recorded check was to see if they were breathing.
This is a popular argument - "nowhere does it say", as if every single thought and deed that night was recorded for posterity for us to scrutinize at a later date. There were many hours that night, between Madeleine being found missing and daylight the next day when the twins presumably awoke as normal. None of us knows precisely what Kate did or did not do with regard to monitoring or checking the twins' health. It's possible she tried to rouse them, it's possible they did awaken briefly when being moved or cuddled. We haven't been given detailed minute-by-minute accounts regarding the twins' apparent unconsciousness. I am prepared to give Kate the benefit of the doubt, that whilst she was concerned enough initially to check their breathing by laying a hand on their backs (and let's face it - what parent hasn't done similar with a child that has slept well past the time it normally awakens), that monitoring their breathing and temperature throughout the rest of the night, by holding them close, was sufficient to reassure her that the twins were not in imminent danger of death. Clearly that is not suffcient checking to pass your due diligence standards but that is your problem.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 02, 2017, 01:34:21 PM
My analysis is that mountains are once again being made out of molehills for the sole purpose of denigrating Kate McCann. Plus ca change and all that...
You must stop taking these words out of my mouth, Alfie.
I'll report you for theft ....
8((()*/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 02, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
I think another point worth mentioning is that Kate's book will doubtless have been read by hundreds, even thousands, in the medical profession, at least a very high proportion of whom will know the ins-and-outs of sedation, actual or suspected, what to look for and what (appropriate) action to take in this, or, that, scenario.
Not a murmur of protest from any of them.
Odd, that.
Or maybe not so odd ....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2017, 02:07:50 PM
The vital signs are blood pressure, temperature, pulse rate and breathing rate. Equipment is needed, but not complicated machines. The equipment needed is a thermometer, a sphygmomanometer, and a watch.
Nowhere does it say that the twin's vital signs were checked. The only recorded check was to see if they were breathing.
By placing her hand on someone's chest you can tell a lot more than if they are breathing or not
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 02, 2017, 02:09:01 PM
I think another point worth mentioning is that Kate's book will doubtless have been read by hundreds, even thousands, in the medical profession, at least a very high proportion of whom will know the ins-and-outs of sedation, actual or suspected, what to look for and what (appropriate) action to take in this, or, that, scenario.
Not a murmur of protest from any of them.
Odd, that.
Or maybe not so odd ....
You jest, of course @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 02:15:19 PM
There are approximately 200,000 medical staff in the UK, so even if only 1% read Kate's best selling book that is still thousands. NB - that figure doesn't include the 300,000 employed as nurses in the UK.
In 2015, across Hospital and Community Healthcare Services (HCHS) and GP practices, the NHS employed 149,808 doctors, 314,966 qualified nursing staff and health visitors (HCHS), 25,418 midwives, 23,066 GP practice nurses, 146,792 qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff, 18,862 qualified ambulance staff and 30,952 managers.
That's actually over 700,000 people in the UK employed in a healthcare capacity - let's estimate only 0.5% have read the book - that's still thousands!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 02:26:30 PM
An experienced doctor is able to judge whether the pulse rate, temperature and breathing of a patient is normal without any equipment at all, do you not agree?
I definitely do not agree. That's utter nonsense.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 02:30:09 PM
If I may intrude here - SB was responsible for the people who had access to the apartments & vitally, who had access to the apartment keys on behalf of OC. Is that a conflict of interest?
Conflict of interest: a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity.
Taking that as a definition it is difficult to see how a conflict of interest existed between her employment as Head of Maintenance and Janitorial Services with OC and providing a service as an interpreter, the disappearance of a child from a building outside the OC compound limits notwithstanding. One would need to look at some contractual relationships together with the full extent of Sr Batista's duties, that is her full job description and terms of employment, in order to gain a full appreciation. I doubt we will lay our hands on any of that. I do not think it appropriate, apart from potentially being libelous, to speculate about what personal benefit she may have derived in order to satisfy a conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 02:57:32 PM
Rate of breathing Depth of breathing Quality of breathing
To check the rate of breathing breaths need to be timed, because sedatives slow the breathing and heart rates and lower blood pressure. The only test reported is checking for breathing, not the rate of breathing. The heart rate and blood pressure weren't checked either. All three could have slowed between checks leading to unconsciousness. All Kate knew was that they were breathing, which could have slowed or even stopped at any moment if a sedative had been administered.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: carlymichelle on January 02, 2017, 03:07:43 PM
To check the rate of breathing breaths need to be timed, because sedatives slow the breathing and heart rates and lower blood pressure. The only test reported is checking for breathing, not the rate of breathing. The heart rate and blood pressure weren't checked either. All three could have slowed between checks leading to unconsciousness. All Kate knew was that they were breathing, which could have slowed or even stopped at any moment if a sedative had been administered.
in kates book the day maddie vanished she noticed that maddie was tired and pale? at bed time yet they still went out
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 04:33:27 PM
I don't think anyone understands the question. I don't.
Simple question.
Maybe someone on here knows what level of discussion took place on the internet about the twins deep sleep, between Madeleine's disappearance and the release of Kate's book ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 04:44:14 PM
Maybe someone on here knows what level of discussion took place on the internet about the twins deep sleep, between Madeleine's disappearance and the release of Kate's book ?
What do you mean by "level of discussion"? How do we measure the level? How do you expect anyone to answer this question with any "level" of accuracy? What is the point of this question anyway?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 04:56:40 PM
How to measure blood pressure without "complicated machines" http://bpmonitoradvisor.com/how-to-check-blood-pressure-without-equipment/ How to take a pulse without "complicated machines" "Measure your heart rate by placing two fingers gently against your wrist (don't use your thumb). If it is hard to feel the pulse in your wrist, find the artery in your neck that is just to either side of the windpipe. Press gently. Count the beats for 15 seconds." How to check temperature without "complicated machines"
To check the rate of breathing breaths need to be timed, because sedatives slow the breathing and heart rates and lower blood pressure. The only test reported is checking for breathing, not the rate of breathing. The heart rate and blood pressure weren't checked either. All three could have slowed between checks leading to unconsciousness. All Kate knew was that they were breathing, which could have slowed or even stopped at any moment if a sedative had been administered.
Fiona Payne had been an anaesthetist for 10 years when Madeleine disappeared. Do you question her judgement of the twins' condition?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 05:02:15 PM
Obviously without "complicated machines" her experience and judgement are all but useless in such situations!
Totally! My old dentist said he used to smack my face to make sure I was still breathing when under IV sedation. I was only ever hooked up to the blood oxygen finger monitor.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 05:09:45 PM
This is a popular argument - "nowhere does it say", as if every single thought and deed that night was recorded for posterity for us to scrutinize at a later date. There were many hours that night, between Madeleine being found missing and daylight the next day when the twins presumably awoke as normal. None of us knows precisely what Kate did or did not do with regard to monitoring or checking the twins' health. It's possible she tried to rouse them, it's possible they did awaken briefly when being moved or cuddled. We haven't been given detailed minute-by-minute accounts regarding the twins' apparent unconsciousness. I am prepared to give Kate the benefit of the doubt, that whilst she was concerned enough initially to check their breathing by laying a hand on their backs (and let's face it - what parent hasn't done similar with a child that has slept well past the time it normally awakens), that monitoring their breathing and temperature throughout the rest of the night, by holding them close, was sufficient to reassure her that the twins were not in imminent danger of death. Clearly that is not suffcient checking to pass your due diligence standards but that is your problem.
And it is your prerogative to believe whatever you like no matter what the evidence shows. That however doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 05:13:47 PM
How to measure blood pressure without "complicated machines" http://bpmonitoradvisor.com/how-to-check-blood-pressure-without-equipment/ How to take a pulse without "complicated machines" "Measure your heart rate by placing two fingers gently against your wrist (don't use your thumb). If it is hard to feel the pulse in your wrist, find the artery in your neck that is just to either side of the windpipe. Press gently. Count the beats for 15 seconds." How to check temperature without "complicated machines"
And it is your prerogative to believe whatever you like no matter what the evidence shows. That however doesn't make it so.
The evidence shows us that Kate was concerned that the twins may have been sedated and together with Fiona Payne kept a close eye on them both throughout the night. For this you have decided she is some sort of monster. Nice.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
What do you mean by "level of discussion"? How do we measure the level? How do you expect anyone to answer this question with any "level" of accuracy? What is the point of this question anyway?
It was a simple question which for some reason you don't wish to answer.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 05:29:58 PM
The evidence shows us that Kate was concerned that the twins may have been sedated and together with Fiona Payne kept a close eye on them both throughout the night. For this you have decided she is some sort of monster. Nice.
Kept a close eye on them? For much of the night Kate and Gerry or Kate and Fiona were in the couple's bedroom while the twins were in the living room.
Further the evidence does show us Kate was concerned about the twins however what the evidence does not show us is that she actually did anything about that concern.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 05:30:52 PM
My analysis is that mountains are once again being made out of molehills for the sole purpose of denigrating Kate McCann. Plus ca change and all that...
Oh indeed, indeed!. There remain questions that are unanswered satisfactorily. Without all the sidelining and body swerving haraz that appears to be self perpetuating.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 05:32:05 PM
To check the rate of breathing breaths need to be timed, because sedatives slow the breathing and heart rates and lower blood pressure. The only test reported is checking for breathing, not the rate of breathing. The heart rate and blood pressure weren't checked either. All three could have slowed between checks leading to unconsciousness. All Kate knew was that they were breathing, which could have slowed or even stopped at any moment if a sedative had been administered.
Are you claiming that Kate didn't have a watch, then ?
If she checked their breathing she would have checked the rate too. Part of checking the breathing is checking the rate. Do you think Kate is an idiot or something ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 05:35:53 PM
How to measure blood pressure without "complicated machines" http://bpmonitoradvisor.com/how-to-check-blood-pressure-without-equipment/ How to take a pulse without "complicated machines" "Measure your heart rate by placing two fingers gently against your wrist (don't use your thumb). If it is hard to feel the pulse in your wrist, find the artery in your neck that is just to either side of the windpipe. Press gently. Count the beats for 15 seconds." How to check temperature without "complicated machines"
Are you claiming that Kate didn't have a watch, then ?
If she checked their breathing she would have checked the rate too. Part of checking the breathing is checking the rate. Do you think Kate is an idiot or something ?
Perhaps it would a good idea Sadie if you read up on the appropriate procedure in such circumstances.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 05:37:33 PM
Kept a close eye on them? For much of the night Kate and Gerry or Kate and Fiona were in the couple's bedroom while the twins were in the living room.
Further the evidence does show us Kate was concerned about the twins however what the evidence does not show us is that she actually did anything about that concern.
Therefore the woman is a monster prepared to let her children die. Is that the conclusion we must draw from your repeated harping on the issue?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 05:38:55 PM
Maybe someone on here knows what level of discussion took place on the internet about the twins deep sleep, between Madeleine's disappearance and the release of Kate's book ?
I think if we established when the idea of sedation first surfaced on the Internet we might be a step forward on this.
Somewhere on the forum someone had posted that Kate's father said they had given Madeleine Calpol when she was younger, to help her sleep. Presumably, he did not simply utter this in some voluntary offering, but was responding to what was already circulating.
The only date I am certain of is that it was in Amaral's book when that was released. Presumably Kate's father's statement predates that. Once the book had been translated from Portuguese, there would have been the obvious opportunity of discussion starting on various forums.
I did not follow the case back in those days, so the actual track record is beyond me.
Suffice it to say the issue was important enough for Kate to cover it off in her book. As to whether this issue had been raised with her previously, perhaps in an interview or perhaps with one of her friends discussing it with her, that is something I do not know. I can see so many alternative routes for this that hours could be wasted trying to document them all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 05:43:24 PM
Are you claiming that Kate didn't have a watch, then ?
If she checked their breathing she would have checked the rate too. Part of checking the breathing is checking the rate. Do you think Kate is an idiot or something ?
I am comparing what Kate McCann said she did with what is recommended for cases of suspected sedation. You are assuming she did more than she said, bur you can't support your assumption with evidence because there is none.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 05:45:08 PM
What other conclusion could you possibly be inviting us to draw with your repeated harpings on and how does this all fit in with your previous contention that the McCanns were good and caring parents?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 02, 2017, 05:49:19 PM
I think if we established when the idea of sedation first surfaced on the Internet we might be a step forward on this.
Somewhere on the forum someone had posted that Kate's father said they had given Madeleine Calpol when she was younger, to help her sleep. Presumably, he did not simply utter this in some voluntary offering, but was responding to what was already circulating.
The only date I am certain of is that it was in Amaral's book when that was released. Presumably Kate's father's statement predates that. Once the book had been translated from Portuguese, there would have been the obvious opportunity of discussion starting on various forums.
I did not follow the case back in those days, so the actual track record is beyond me.
Suffice it to say the issue was important enough for Kate to cover it off in her book. As to whether this issue had been raised with her previously, perhaps in an interview or perhaps with one of her friends discussing it with her, that is something I do not know. I can see so many alternative routes for this that hours could be wasted trying to document them all.
To be absolutely accurate, the words to help her sleep were added in parenthesis by the reporter in a quote attributed by the reporter to Mr Healy.
I think it entirely fair to surmise that Mr Healy merely confirmed what Kate and Gerry had, themselves, already acknowledged, that they occasionally used calpol with the children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 05:51:05 PM
I am comparing what Kate McCann said she did with what is recommended for cases of suspected sedation. You are assuming she did more than she said, bur you can't support your assumption with evidence because there is none.
She checked the breathing . Part of checking the breathing is noting the rate.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 05:55:30 PM
stephen, I was around in the days when doctors only had stethescopes ... and they rarely used them.
From time immemorial doctors have been able to check the vital signs. The fancy equipment makes the readings more accurate. That is all
Sadie, placing your fingers on someone's body, does not tell even a Doctor, if they have drugs or anaesthetics in their bloodstream.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 02, 2017, 05:59:10 PM
A lot of posts have been removed recently as they were completely off topic. It is not something we like to do so please ensure your posts are at least in part relative to the topic being debated. TY
And a Happy New Year to everyone! 8((()*/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 06:05:29 PM
15 hours of questioning ... but how many minutes of statements?
Many more things left out than put into the statements.
Who decided what to leave in and what to leave ouit?
You seriously believe that 'feeling their backs' is the same as 'checking their vital signs'? You seriously believe she wouldn't have used the correct terminology in her book? You seriously think she wouldn't have told anyone if she gave the police that important information and it didn't appear in her statements?
It doesn't matter if you do believe all that anyway, because you have no evidence whatsoever to support your beliefs.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 02, 2017, 06:06:44 PM
To be absolutely accurate, the words to help her sleep were added in parenthesis by the reporter in a quote attributed by the reporter to Mr Healy.
I think it entirely fair to surmise that Mr Healy merely confirmed what Kate and Gerry had, themselves, already acknowledged, that they occasionally used calpol with the children.
Thank you.
I am trying to get at a a date for when this hoo-ha surfaced. Presumably Kate and Gerry did not volunteer such information to the media, or did they? Was possible sedation being discussed even earlier? In which case it would make sense for the McCanns to talk about the children's medicine.
And for the record 'to help her sleep' is a totally innocent comment, IMO.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:13:09 PM
You seriously believe that 'feeling their backs' is the same as 'checking their vital signs'? You seriously believe she wouldn't have used the correct terminology in her book? You seriously think she wouldn't have told anyone if she gave the police that important information and it didn't appear in her statements?
It doesn't matter if you do believe all that anyway, because you have no evidence whatsoever to support your beliefs.
Do you seriously believe Kate McCann was prepared to let her twins die in her arms that night?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 06:15:22 PM
The person signing the statement is responsible for it's accuracy. Therefore if anything significant was left out, it is their call.
Nobody is saying that the statement isn't accurate, as far as it goes. Although there is room for inaccuracies and ommisions with translations and third party statements
But interviews of 15 hours producing so little in statements, proves that not everything was mentioned
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 06:26:37 PM
I am trying to get at a a date for when this hoo-ha surfaced. Presumably Kate and Gerry did not volunteer such information to the media, or did they? Was possible sedation being discussed even earlier? In which case it would make sense for the McCanns to talk about the children's medicine.
And for the record 'to help her sleep' is a totally innocent comment, IMO.
Calpol is NOT a sedative. It is a medication to take pain away. Once the pain is masked the child falls off to sleep.
I feel sure that, you, SIL must know this already.
I repeat, the Clapol available at that time is NOT a sedative.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 02, 2017, 06:31:03 PM
Calpol is NOT a sedative. It is a medication to take pain away. Once the pain is masked the child falls off to sleep.
I feel sure that, you, SIL must know this already.
I repeat, the Clapol available at that time is NOT a sedative.
What I embolden in the quote from Sadie, I have no doubt, is where the misconception of calpol as a 'sedative' comes from.
I think Amaral should be made to answer for the gratuitous reference in his book to calpol night!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:31:38 PM
You know, if I had just hidden my kid's body and the place was swarming with police I would relish any opportunity to get the hell out of the situation, so a trip to the nearest hospital with my other kids would have been just the ticket to buy me some time and deflect attention away from myself for a while.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
Do you seriously believe Kate McCann was prepared to let her twins die in her arms that night?
I have no idea what she was prepared to do, but if she really feared that an unknown dose of an unknown sedative had been administered by a criminal it's hard to understand why she restricted her checks to wandering into their bedroom several times and feeling their backs as she reports.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:32:58 PM
I have no idea what she was prepared to do, but if she really feared that an unknown dose of an unknown sedative had been administered by a criminal it's hard to understand why she restricted her checks to wandering into their bedroom several times and feeling their backs as she reports.
You don't believe that happened though do you?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:36:06 PM
I have no idea what she was prepared to do, but if she really feared that an unknown dose of an unknown sedative had been administered by a criminal it's hard to understand why she restricted her checks to wandering into their bedroom several times and feeling their backs as she reports.
Did she not mention cuddling one of the twins while FP cuddled the other? I know you think the idea that cuddling her children in the circumstances is hysterically funny, but it does indicate that her concern was expressed by more than wandering in an out of a bedroom a few times.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:38:35 PM
Groundhog Day http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2035.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 06:42:45 PM
Slartibart wanted to know about the level of internet interest in the sedation issue. I have no idea if this answers the question, but it comes from a Guardian article from 2007 which is still online and which has not been sued for libel so PLEASE DO NOT DELETE - THE ARTICLE IS NOT LIBELLOUS WHEN THE EXCERPT BELOW IS READ IN CONTEXT!!!!
"The McCanns had sedated their children so that they could have an undisturbed dinner with friends (hence the failure of the two younger McCann children to awake even during the loud chaos of the night of May 3). They returned to find Madeleine dead. Fearing their twins would be taken from them if they confessed the truth, they hid Madeleine's body, then hid it again in the spare wheel compartment of their rented car until finally burying it somewhere else" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/sep/12/comment.ukcrime
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 02, 2017, 06:46:46 PM
Nobody is saying that the statement isn't accurate, as far as it goes. Although there is room for inaccuracies and ommisions with translations and third party statements
But interviews of 15 hours producing so little in statements, proves that not everything was mentioned
Kate attended interviews on 3 separate days.
I have no idea whether the 15 hours is accurate or not, so perhaps anyone relying on that should verify it.
The interview process is known, and it is obviously very slow. So I do not find 15 hours to be out of keeping with what we know.
What you are implying is libel. You are libelling Kate in that she supposedly failed to ensure this key piece of evidence was included in her statement(s) when she signed to confirm they were accurate. You are libelling the PJ officers who allegedly failed to incorporate this key piece of information in Kate's statements. You are libelling the translator, who either failed to pass this key information on in the first place, or forget it had been mentioned when reading the statement back.
The responsibility to confirm the veracity of the statements was Kate's.
Unless you have evidence that this was raised in one of the interviews, and none has been forthcoming so far, you are above all libelling Kate.
Any further non-evidenced posts to such effect are going to be removed.
And I'm willing to bet that when the senior moderators review this debate, a great deal of this discussion will disappear on the grounds that it is libellous.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 02, 2017, 06:51:47 PM
Just as long as it is contained within the permitted limits.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 02, 2017, 06:52:42 PM
Slartibart wanted to know about the level of internet interest in the sedation issue. I have no idea if this answers the question, but it comes from a Guardian article from 2007 which is still online and which has not been sued for libel so PLEASE DO NOT DELETE - THE ARTICLE IS NOT LIBELLOUS WHEN THE EXCERPT BELOW IS READ IN CONTEXT!!!!
"The McCanns had sedated their children so that they could have an undisturbed dinner with friends (hence the failure of the two younger McCann children to awake even during the loud chaos of the night of May 3). They returned to find Madeleine dead. Fearing their twins would be taken from them if they confessed the truth, they hid Madeleine's body, then hid it again in the spare wheel compartment of their rented car until finally burying it somewhere else" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/sep/12/comment.ukcrime
More interested in the online fora and discussion groups around at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 07:33:05 PM
More interested in the online fora and discussion groups around at the time.
Were you going to research that aspect? Sounds quite a mission. madeleine + mccann + calpol only 4,080 results to look through. https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/calpol-and-nurofen-on-the-mccann-holiday/ "Carana replies: Hmmm. The issue of whether Madeleine could have been sedated so as to facilitate an abduction was one of the first questions the parents asked the UK liaison officers (as soon as they arrived on 5 May) to follow up with the PJ.
In view of the fact that the twins didn’t wake up despite the noise, it would have made sense for the PJ to test the twins for common sedatives or chloroform, sleeping gas, etc., way back then, wouldn’t it?"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 07:48:38 PM
It just plants seeds of doubt in peoples minds, doesn't it ?
Is that what you want ?
You are going on about a point or question that I did not raise.
Establishing the source of this development happens to be important in establishing some clear idea of the truth. Slarti is interested in when it hit the forums and how major a topic it was.
It is clear from Alfie's Guardian link that the sedative idea was rattling around as early as mid-Sep 2007, so no doubt by then the Internet would have been abuzz with the misinformation the article contains.
I note also from Alfie's link that a split into the for and against camp had developed, and that the split seemed deeply entrenched by that time.
I remain interested in when the issue of Calpol hit the public domain, and how it became public. It is difficult to see it preceding the sedative issue, but not impossible. One route would be the 'unresponsive twins' idea became public, followed by the McCanns saying they only ever gave Madeleine Calpol. But until the source is identified, this part is speculation. Hence some evidence would clarify the events.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
What Kate's Father Said - Primary Source The McCanns did not denying ever giving their children Calpol and in fact they told the police that they had purchased Calpol to take on vacation with them.
In a TV interview, Kate's father, Brian Healy, spoke about Calpol. Segment starts at 0.42:- Quote: http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077700/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2013#WhatKatesFatherSaidPrimarySource Reporter - Is it possible that Kate with her medical background, might have, wanted to help Madeleine to go to sleep that night? Brian Healy - Not at all. Reporter - Even out of kindness, she certainly wouldn't have given her... Brian Healy - Not even out of kindness, I think they may have used Calpol like most mothers...nothing...it's just outrageous to even think about it. First and foremost was their kids. They wouldn't have done that.
Mr Healy was not on vacation with the McCanns, but even still, in no way does this contradict the McCann's claims. "
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 08:45:06 PM
More interested in the online fora and discussion groups around at the time.
the online fora and discussion groups were one of the main sources for the speculation as described in the article. It was certainly being discussed most feverishly back then but I'm still not sure how you would expect anyone to quantify the level of interest.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 09:12:25 PM
So how do you account for the apparent state of unconsciousness of the twins then?
What state of unconsciousness? Some people think they'd had a busy day and were sleeping naturally. Their mother said it was unnatural, but has never offered an opinion as to how a sedative could have been administered.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 09:26:47 PM
Other than via drink bottles with nipples. Children will suckle nipples even while asleep. Chloroform via a cloth could have been given to Madeleine.
So you think someone (in a dark room) found the twin's drink bottles and filled them with a sedating solution, hoping they would not wake and they would drink it? They then held a cloth soaked in chloroform over Madeleine's face for five minutes to knock her out? They were cool customers to hang around doing all that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 09:41:35 PM
the online fora and discussion groups were one of the main sources for the speculation as described in the article. It was certainly being discussed most feverishly back then but I'm still mot sure how you would expect anyone to quantify the level of interest.
That's fine thanks.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
What state of unconsciousness? Some people think they'd had a busy day and were sleeping naturally. Their mother said it was unnatural, but has never offered an opinion as to how a sedative could have been administered.
Are there not only three methods? Intravenously Injection Orally
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 10:06:21 PM
What state of unconsciousness? Some people think they'd had a busy day and were sleeping naturally. Their mother said it was unnatural, but has never offered an opinion as to how a sedative could have been administered.
Why would she have to do that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 10:15:18 PM
What state of unconsciousness? Some people think they'd had a busy day and were sleeping naturally. Their mother said it was unnatural, but has never offered an opinion as to how a sedative could have been administered.
Does Kate have to have it all figured out?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 10:17:58 PM
Why would anyone who had overdosed their kids to make them sleep deliberately draw attention to it - can anyone venture an explanation?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 02, 2017, 10:21:04 PM
Why would anyone who had overdosed their kids to make them sleep deliberately draw attention to it - can anyone venture an explanation?
The investigation makes the claim she only alerts to it at a time (in July) she knows that the drugs can't be detected any longer. But we proved the McCanns made noises about it much earlier than this (on the 5th of May 2007), but it appears the investigation into drug use was something of the order of just looking for syringes or empty pill bottles at the scene of the crime. No blood tests on the twins was carried out for without a clue as to what drug was used the testing they would have had to cover hundreds of potential substances.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 10:29:00 PM
Why would anyone who had overdosed their kids to make them sleep deliberately draw attention to it - can anyone venture an explanation?
If they had overdosed their children wouldn't it be handy to know what the police knew? Further perhaps they thought if they brought it up themselves the police would be less likely to suspect them of doing it ( coincidently the very argument you are using).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 10:30:20 PM
There is very little evidence of any real drawing of attention.
There are at least two. One was on the 5th May when the McCanns asked if there was any evidence Madeleine had been sedated. If this is not drawing attention to the possibility that they may have sedated their own kids I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2017, 10:31:20 PM
If the had overdosed their children wouldn't it be handy to know what the police knew? Further perhaps they thought if they brought it up themselves the police would be less likely to suspect them of doing it ( coincidently the very argument you are using).
One of those "can't win either way" arguments.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 10:33:27 PM
If the had overdosed their children wouldn't it be handy to know what the police knew? Further perhaps they thought if they brought it up themselves the police would be less likely to suspect them of doing it ( coincidently the very argument you are using).
How would knowing what the police know re: sedation confer any advantage? So are you telling me now that had they NOT brought up the concerns re: sedation that would have made them seem LESS suspicious in your view? *&*%£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2017, 10:38:20 PM
So you think someone (in a dark room) found the twin's drink bottles and filled them with a sedating solution, hoping they would not wake and they would drink it? They then held a cloth soaked in chloroform over Madeleine's face for five minutes to knock her out? They were cool customers to hang around doing all that.
And that is one of the main reasons why the window was open IMO
To shine some light in and to pass the chloroform pad in. Chloroform has a horrid smell from memory when I was given it, but IIRC the smell soon dissipates
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 02, 2017, 10:48:49 PM
And that is one of the main reasons why the window was open IMO
To shine some light in and to pass the chloroform pad in. Chloroform has a horrid smell from memory when I was given it, but IIRC the smell soon dissipates
Not a clue.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 10:54:43 PM
How would knowing what the police know re: sedation confer any advantage? So are you telling me now that had they NOT brought up the concerns re: sedation that would have made them seem LESS suspicious in your view? *&*%£
No that is what you said. Bringing up the subject is not something, according to you, a guilty person does. So if they did it would make them look less guilty. A double bluff as it were.
It would certainly have left them with less insight into the police's thinking if they hadn't asked for confirmation re: sedation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 11:11:33 PM
So now we know that if the McCanns had rushed the twins to hospital that night and were found to have been sedated that it would have been a double bluff to put the police off the scent. The fact that they didn't do this shows that they had obviously sedated their kids and didn't want to be found out but the fact that they did mention it to the FLO two days later shows them double bluffing again, Simples innit. *&*%£
Can anyone clarify what the McCanns could have done in this regard that would make the doubters any less suspicious because from what I can gather the answer is sweet FA!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 02, 2017, 11:14:01 PM
So now we know that if the McCanns had rushed the twins to hospital that night and were found to have been sedated that it would have been a double bluff to put the police off the scent. The fact that they didn't do this shows that they had obviously sedated their kids and didn't want to be found out but the fact that they did mention it to the FLO two days later shows them double bluffing again, Simples innit. *&*%£
Can anyone clarify what the McCanns could have done in this regard that would make the doubters any less suspicious because from what I can gather the answer is sweet FA!
But they didn't rush to the hospital and therein lies the rub.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 11:15:15 PM
She wouldn't. I expect she knew it was hard to explain.
She doesn't have to explain how her children may have been sedated, unless of course you're suggesting she actually knew they had been, which of course you're not are you? Heaven forfend!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 11:19:22 PM
The investigation makes the claim she only alerts to it at a time (in July) she knows that the drugs can't be detected any longer. But we proved the McCanns made noises about it much earlier than this (on the 5th of May 2007), but it appears the investigation into drug use was something of the order of just looking for syringes or empty pill bottles at the scene of the crime. No blood tests on the twins was carried out for without a clue as to what drug was used the testing they would have had to cover hundreds of potential substances.
The 'noises' were made to the FLO's and related only to Madeleine, so why would anyone think to test the twins?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 11:25:35 PM
Nah, that's not it. Also, two GNR Officers pointedly noted in their statements about how still the twins were despite the noise.
Must be someone who read their statements that had no brains .. or someone who didn't want the twins tested for some reason.
Why could that be?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 02, 2017, 11:33:11 PM
In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 02, 2017, 11:36:13 PM
And that is one of the main reasons why the window was open IMO
To shine some light in and to pass the chloroform pad in. Chloroform has a horrid smell from memory when I was given it, but IIRC the smell soon dissipates
So how was she kept unconscious? Continuous application is required as is supporting the chin so the person doesn't swallow their tongue. One applying, one carrying, one supporting the chin. They were quite a crowd trotting down the street.
After a person has lost consciousness due to chloroform inhalation, a continuous volume must be administered and the chin must be supported in order to keep the tongue from obstructing the airway, a difficult procedure even for an anesthesiologist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform#Criminal_use
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 02, 2017, 11:38:05 PM
In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated.
It does make you wonder when the criminals can still get away with gassing people in their sleep.... https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/158719/f1-jenson-gassed-in-300k-robbery/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 11:43:03 PM
In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated.
So you think Dr K McCann's fears were ill founded despite her training and practice?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 02, 2017, 11:57:08 PM
It does make you wonder when the criminals can still get away with gassing people in their sleep.... https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/158719/f1-jenson-gassed-in-300k-robbery/
This one was done to death quite a while ago. The logistics are interesting to say the least. Arthur Bishop would have loved it I am sure.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 03, 2017, 12:14:29 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33821661
In response to the Home Office warning, the Royal College of Anaesthetists (RCA) released a statement saying it was highly sceptical about robbers using anaesthetic gas.
"It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether chloroform, or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motorhome without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time," the statement said.
And as for using it on an entire villa? More likely an urban - or Riviera - myth, according to the RCA.
"They would need massive amounts of gas," says a spokesman. "We can't rule out that some sort of agent was used, but the volume of gas and the logistics involved in delivering it make it highly unlikely that this was anaesthetic.
"You have to remember, we're talking about rendering four adults unconscious in a large villa.
"When you combine that with the fact that these gases are expensive and difficult to get hold of, we are very sceptical."
This one was done to death quite a while ago. The logistics are interesting to say the least. Arthur Bishop would have loved it I am sure.
I know it has been done to death but it's just another example of the variety of ways criminals adopt to achieve their goal and could wreak havoc with the mind of any victim of a similar crime. Nobody, but nobody other than Kate & Fiona expressed any concern that the twins may have also been sedated - not the emergency service at scene, the nannies, the plethora of other doctors at the resort. Yet somehow, Kate was supposed to have immediately reacted to this improbable "life-threatening situation" by demanding immediate medical tests. Any abductor was not going to overdose 2 children they had no interest in & risk facing a possible murder charge if they were caught.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 03, 2017, 12:20:18 AM
The 'noises' were made to the FLO's and related only to Madeleine, so why would anyone think to test the twins?
I tend to think the McCanns were the meat in the sandwich between the two police jurisdictions. The British team answered the question with a "no" so when they in returned asking for evidence that Madeleine had been sedated they were answered with another "no". Not because the PJ couldn't test the twins but they just wanted to use that mighty word "NO".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2017, 12:26:48 AM
I know it has been done to death but it's just another example of the variety of ways criminals adopt to achieve their goal and could wreak havoc with the mind of any victim of a similar crime. Nobody, but nobody other than Kate & Fiona expressed any concern that the twins may have also been sedated - not the emergency service at scene, the nannies, the plethora of other doctors at the resort. Yet somehow, Kate was supposed to have immediately reacted to this improbable "life-threatening situation" by demanding immediate medical tests. Any abductor was not going to overdose 2 children they had no interest in & risk facing a possible murder charge if they were caught.
Kate raised the concern that the twins had been sedated I haven't seen anything to suggest she thought they had been over sedated and needed any sort of immediate treatment
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 12:49:56 AM
If they'd actually sought help on the night then it would certainly look less suspicious.
Less suspicious to who? How could they ever have known that people would still be dissecting their every move & decision nearly 10 years after the event?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 03, 2017, 02:04:00 AM
So you think Dr K McCann's fears were ill founded despite her training and practice?
No - I think she was right to be concerned and right to raise the issue of possible sedation with the police.
I see even in the last month there has been another of these "gassing" robberies on the continent. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001318/British-family-gassed-robbed-1-000-slept-caravan-French-service-station-way-Disneyland.html Whilst logically it may seem improbable, as a mother faced with the sudden disappearance of a child in mysterious circumstances it's not improbable that your thoughts might turn to incidents like these.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 03, 2017, 10:12:49 AM
No - I think she was right to be concerned and right to raise the issue of possible sedation with the police.
I see even in the last month there has been another of these "gassing" robberies on the continent. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001318/British-family-gassed-robbed-1-000-slept-caravan-French-service-station-way-Disneyland.html Whilst logically it may seem improbable, as a mother faced with the sudden disappearance of a child in mysterious circumstances it's not improbable that your thoughts might turn to incidents like these.
So what is the gas being used?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 10:15:21 AM
No - I think she was right to be concerned and right to raise the issue of possible sedation with the police.
I see even in the last month there has been another of these "gassing" robberies on the continent. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001318/British-family-gassed-robbed-1-000-slept-caravan-French-service-station-way-Disneyland.html Whilst logically it may seem improbable, as a mother faced with the sudden disappearance of a child in mysterious circumstances it's not improbable that your thoughts might turn to incidents like these.
Is it anymore appalling if parents do not seek medical help after they suspect their children have been gassed rather than sedated by some other means ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 11:22:00 AM
You raised the scenario. Are you now distancing yourself from it as it didn't serve your purpose?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 03, 2017, 11:50:18 AM
I know it has been done to death but it's just another example of the variety of ways criminals adopt to achieve their goal and could wreak havoc with the mind of any victim of a similar crime. Nobody, but nobody other than Kate & Fiona expressed any concern that the twins may have also been sedated - not the emergency service at scene, the nannies, the plethora of other doctors at the resort. Yet somehow, Kate was supposed to have immediately reacted to this improbable "life-threatening situation" by demanding immediate medical tests. Any abductor was not going to overdose 2 children they had no interest in & risk facing a possible murder charge if they were caught.
I agree misty.
The thing is Kate traumatised at finding her daughter missing, remembering the stain on Madeleine's pyjamas is struck by the thought that the twins could have been sedated. Fiona though saying that the twins were not waking up, didn't seem to share this thought with Kate, she said they were fine. So if you have someone reassuring you that the twins are fine, dealing with the fact that Madeleine was missing, even though it is at the back of your mind, you wouldn't react the way as you would normally.
We don't know for instance if the twins changed position in their cots, if they were unconscious apparently they wouldn't do this. We don't know if Fiona examined them, she doesn't say she did, but we don't know. Did the twins let out a sigh or any other sounds? we don't know.
The fact is they were Dr's they were intelligent people, and I really can't imagine intelligent people not bothering if the twins were in any immediate danger, or Kate writing in her book months later about what she believed and did, knowing that if she hadn't acted properly she would be struck off as a Dr. Indeed Social Services visited the McCann's, I am sure if they had any concerns about how they reacted to the twins, serious enough for them not to practise as Dr's the twins would have been taken away.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 12:41:46 PM
You raised the scenario. Are you now distancing yourself from it as it didn't serve your purpose?
No, I stand by every word I have written, but remember it was written with the proviso that it was my opinion only, and not necessarily what actually happened or what Kate said happened. We know that in your opinion Kate is an evil monster for not taking the twins to the hospital that night, what more can be said or done to dissuade you of this notion? Nothing, so why should I bother repeating my views about it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 03, 2017, 01:34:39 PM
Are you serious? Why in God's name wouldn't the police think to test the twins? Their heavy sleep was even noted by a GNR officer in his statement.
Two GNR officers attended. The deeply sleeping twins were not mentioned in their first statements on 7th May or their second statements on 16th May. They were only mentioned in their third statements made on 17th October. That's after sedation was speculated about in the media.
So they noticed the twins deep sleep, but saw no reason to report it. They remembered it in October after being asked.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 03, 2017, 01:40:49 PM
I have no idea what the purpose of your question is. The FLO's were asked if the PJ had any evidence to suggest Madeleine had been sedated. If they asked the PJ that question the answer would have been 'No', because they didn't. End of subject.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2017, 01:44:18 PM
Two GNR officers attended. The deeply sleeping twins were not mentioned in their first statements on 7th May or their second statements on 16th May. They were only mentioned in their third statements made on 17th October. That's after sedation was speculated about in the media.
So they noticed the twins deep sleep, but saw no reason to report it. They remembered it in October after being asked.
No record in the statement but of course we have no idea what conserns the McCanns mentioned The statements are very short summaries of what the McCanns said
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 03, 2017, 01:56:17 PM
No record in the statement but of course we have no idea what conserns the McCanns mentioned The statements are very short summaries of what the McCanns said
Kate McCann told us in her book that she feared her children had been sedated. She says she reported those fears to the GNR. They didn't report that in their statements. The interpreter didn't report it in her statements. The McCanns didn't mention it in any statements. They mentioned only Madeleine to the UK FLO's. There's no evidence of any meaningful monitoring of the children by the parents. Those are the facts, all else is opinion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2017, 01:59:22 PM
Kate McCann told us in her book that she feared her children had been sedated. She says she reported those fears to the GNR. They didn't report that in their statements. The interpreter didn't report it in her statements. The McCanns didn't mention it in any statements. They mentioned only Madeleine to the UK FLO's. There's no evidence of any meaningful monitoring of the children by the parents. Those are the facts, all else is opinion.
Just as saying she didn't mention it is opinion
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 03, 2017, 02:16:48 PM
No record in the statement but of course we have no idea what conserns the McCanns mentioned The statements are very short summaries of what the McCanns said
What we know is that the McCanns and others who interacted with the twins that night, had multiple opportunities to ensure any concerns were recorded, and none did.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 03, 2017, 02:19:44 PM
Two GNR officers attended. The deeply sleeping twins were not mentioned in their first statements on 7th May or their second statements on 16th May. They were only mentioned in their third statements made on 17th October. That's after sedation was speculated about in the media.
So they noticed the twins deep sleep, but saw no reason to report it. They remembered it in October after being asked.
Oh right, so their statements are not to be trusted either as they were obviously biased by media reporting.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
No, I stand by every word I have written, but remember it was written with the proviso that it was my opinion only, and not necessarily what actually happened or what Kate said happened. We know that in your opinion Kate is an evil monster for not taking the twins to the hospital that night, what more can be said or done to dissuade you of this notion? Nothing, so why should I bother repeating my views about it?
I certainly don't think Kate is a monster. I think she is a pragmatist.
Can you tell me why it would be more acceptable for Kate not to have the twins medically checked if she suspected that they were unresponsive due to gas rather than some other sedative?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 05:05:37 PM
This is the pertinent part of your post:
'In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. ' So please tell me what I have got wrong?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 05:26:49 PM
'In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. ' So please tell me what I have got wrong?
You seem to be under the impression that I wrote this as a reason why Kate did not take the twins to the hospital, am I correct in thinking that is your belief?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
You seem to be under the impression that I wrote this as a reason why Kate did not take the twins to the hospital, am I correct in thinking that is your belief?
No you said you believe Kate may have believed the twins had been gassed. I asked why not seeking medical advice if they had been gassed is any more acceptable than if they had been sedated in any other way?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 06:23:20 PM
No you said you believe Kate may have believed the twins had been gassed. I asked why not seeking medical advice if they had been gassed is any more acceptable than if they had been sedated in any other way?
For some reason my reply to your question was removed - I have no idea why. To repeat - I have made no judgement regarding whether it is any more or less acceptable, so you are seeing things that simply aren't there.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2017, 06:55:59 PM
In the book she mentioned it, and the book was written after the event, so irrelevant.
At the time there was no record of any attempt by the Mccanns, their associates or the Police to have the other two children examined.
That is the fact of the matter.
It didn't need to be done immediately. It could have been a few days later.
The Mccann's as Doctors, have no excuse for not ensuring this was done.
So the question remains, WHY DIDN'T THEY ?
Probably because on 4/5/2007 the CSI team had found no trace of any substance indicating Madeleine had been sedated. by which time the twins were apparently OK.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2017, 07:30:12 PM
Probably because on 4/5/2007 the CSI team had found no trace of any substance indicating Madeleine had been sedated. by which time the twins were apparently OK.
So they tested blood and tissue samples of madeleine's siblings ?
As I said, there was no excuse for either of the Mccann's or the Police not having tests done.
You never know, it might have helped solve the case. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 07:31:33 PM
For some reason my reply to your question was removed - I have no idea why. To repeat - I have made no judgement regarding whether it is any more or less acceptable, so you are seeing things that simply aren't there.
Then perhaps you can tell me how lYO the twins were gassed in the couple of minutes between Gerry leaving the apartment and the appearance of Tannerman?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 03, 2017, 07:36:19 PM
So they tested blood and tissue samples of madeleine's siblings ?
As I said, there was no excuse for either of the Mccann's or the Police not having tests done.
You never know, it might have helped solve the case. 8)-)))
It may have helped solve the case but the absence of anything untoward in the twins blood/tissue may have offered further proof to the investigating team that there was no abduction. It's a catch 22 situation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 10:02:42 PM
Then perhaps you can tell me how lYO the twins were gassed in the couple of minutes between Gerry leaving the apartment and the appearance of Tannerman?
Once again I am going to have to direct you to my original post on this matter. You seem to be having real comprehension issues today!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2017, 10:19:05 PM
Once again I am going to have to direct you to my original post on this matter. You seem to be having real comprehension issues today!
Nope again that doesn't answer my question. Perhaps you are afraid to acknowledge that it would be impossible for a room that size to have been filled with enough gas to sedate three children in the space of three or four minutes. Kate was an intelligent women and even in her panicked state she would have known that. I'm actually surprised that you are putting such a ridiculous scenario forward if I'm honest.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 10:21:05 PM
Nope again that doesn't answer my question. Perhaps you are afraid to acknowledge that it would be impossible for a room that size to have been filled with enough gas to sedate three children in the space of three or four minutes. Kate was an intelligent women and even in her panicked state she would have known that. I'm actually surprised that you are putting such a ridiculous scenario forward if I'm honest.
It's obvious you either didn't read my original post properly of are having a senior moment. I'd suggest before you make an even bigger fool of yourself you go back and read it very carefully.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 03, 2017, 10:24:00 PM
I certainly don't think Kate is a monster. I think she is a pragmatist.
Can you tell me why it would be more acceptable for Kate not to have the twins medically checked if she suspected that they were unresponsive due to gas rather than some other sedative?
Were it a gas it would have been a gas with very interesting properties.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 03, 2017, 10:51:04 PM
Kate has voiced concerns that the twins were sedated Which does not require any medical intervention Not that they were oversedated
Rubbish. Children's sedation for medical reasons is very carefully organised to strict guidelines. Continuous monitoring is carried out. That's done when the type of sedation is known and is administered by experts.
In this case the substance and dose was unknown, so it was impossible to judge if they would be ok or not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 11:02:47 PM
Rubbish. Children's sedation for medical reasons is very carefully organised to strict guidelines. Continuous monitoring is carried out. That's done when the type of sedation is known and is administered by experts.
In this case the substance and dose was unknown, so it was impossible to judge if they would be ok or not.
Kate and Fiona judge from monitoring and checking the twins that their lives were not in danger. The twins were absolutely fine the next day. Their judgement was correct.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 03, 2017, 11:04:51 PM
Kate and Fiona judge from monitoring and checking the twins that their lives were not in danger. The twins were absolutely fine the next day. Their judgement was correct.
Yep!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 03, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
Rubbish. Children's sedation for medical reasons is very carefully organised to strict guidelines. Continuous monitoring is carried out. That's done when the type of sedation is known and is administered by experts.
In this case the substance and dose was unknown, so it was impossible to judge if they would be ok or not.
What substance?
What dosage?
There is nothing to indicate or suggest either child was drugged.
Had there been any suggestion that the children had been subject to invasive procedure of any kind, the responsibility for organising checking that independently, without doubt, lay with the highly experienced and qualified investigative PJ team.
Perhaps a diligence they either overlooked or perhaps judged unnecessary since they were certainly aware that the twins were sleeping soundly, and were also aware that they were being constantly monitored by doctors.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 03, 2017, 11:11:52 PM
Nope again that doesn't answer my question. Perhaps you are afraid to acknowledge that it would be impossible for a room that size to have been filled with enough gas to sedate three children in the space of three or four minutes. Kate was an intelligent women and even in her panicked state she would have known that. I'm actually surprised that you are putting such a ridiculous scenario forward if I'm honest.
At least we now know what the myriad of blokes were doing who were thought to be casing the joint: working out where to stand the crane to swing in a cylinder pack [or cryo mini tank maybe if they used an inert]. I am surprised no one saw them piping it all up or in the case of a cryo minitank gassing off and laying a fog. They sure stripped it all out quick too as no one noticed it and it's all bump into kit rather than trip over.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
Alice and Fathlilly I wish you'd both grow up and learn to read and comprehend my posts properly rather than deliberately misunderstanding them for the lols.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2017, 12:42:23 AM
Alice and Fathlilly I wish you'd both grow up and learn to read and comprehend my posts properly rather than deliberately misunderstanding them for the lols.
So correct me if I'm wrong. Did you not speculate in your post that Kate may have thought that the twins had been gassed?
From your post:
'The McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed'
And this
' So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time.'
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 04, 2017, 12:47:07 AM
I have no idea what the purpose of your question is. The FLO's were asked if the PJ had any evidence to suggest Madeleine had been sedated. If they asked the PJ that question the answer would have been 'No', because they didn't. End of subject.
And that is because they didn't bother to check the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 12:50:57 AM
Then perhaps you can tell me how lYO the twins were gassed in the couple of minutes between Gerry leaving the apartment and the appearance of Tannerman?
No gas with the twins nor Madeleine IMO
Something added to their hot chocolate / ovaltine at tea-time which made them very sleepy. THen when the lifter / abductor entered, Madeleine may have had a chloroform pad put over her face followed by an injection of some drug or other.
Marilyn on a previous forum that I was on thought that a tazer gun was used on Madeleine ? Dunno
But one of the reasons that the window was open IMO was to pass sedation stuff thru to the lifter
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 04, 2017, 01:06:42 AM
So they tested blood and tissue samples of madeleine's siblings ?
As I said, there was no excuse for either of the Mccann's or the Police not having tests done.
You never know, it might have helped solve the case. 8)-)))
I agree with your last comment. Had they been tested and found to have been interfered with then we would now at least be looking for an abductor. As it is all possibilities are still wide open even now ten years on.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 04, 2017, 01:14:17 AM
Something added to their hot chocolate / ovaltine at tea-time which made them very sleepy. THen when the lifter / abductor entered, Madeleine may have had a chloroform pad put over her face followed by an injection of some drug or other.
Marilyn on a previous forum that I was on thought that a tazer gun was used on Madeleine ? Dunno
But one of the reasons that the window was open IMO was to pass sedation stuff thru to the lifter
Hmmn &%+((£ the plot thickens, spiked hot chocolate and taser guns. Actually a handkerchief soaked in any suitable solvent would do the job just as well, takes seconds to apply and leaves no fumes. Would knock a child out in seconds and can be reapplied at will when necessary.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 04, 2017, 01:18:43 AM
And that is because they didn't bother to check the twins.
I think it all came down to resources. They had enough trouble looking for a missing 3-year-old to bother with the twins. In hindsight though it was a dreadful blunder by all involved not to have them tested immediately.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 01:55:31 AM
Earlier in the thread I had mentioned that in Silvia Batista's statement she talks of removing the twins drinks as in the version of the translation "TRANSLATION BY ANA BETANCOURT". "At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained."
But in the lower version "TRANSLATED BY ALBYM" "At a given point, soon after the PJ officers arrived, the parents took the twins from their beds where they were sleeping, taking them up to the apartment on the first floor. At Kate's request the deponent took from the babies' cots the dolls and a blanket also up to the first floor. The cots stayed with only the mattresses [in them].
It is the second version which follows the signed statement the best. In the original Portuguese version there is no word referring to "drink" so it is a mystery why Ana Betancourt has added it to the translation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 04, 2017, 07:58:38 AM
Had there been any suggestion that the children had been subject to invasive procedure of any kind, the responsibility for organising checking that independently, without doubt, lay with the highly experienced and qualified investigative PJ team.
Snip
Maybe it would have been better if they had left the whole case to the highly experienced and qualified investigative PJ team.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 04, 2017, 08:13:12 AM
There is nothing to indicate or suggest either child was drugged.
Had there been any suggestion that the children had been subject to invasive procedure of any kind, the responsibility for organising checking that independently, without doubt, lay with the highly experienced and qualified investigative PJ team.
Perhaps a diligence they either overlooked or perhaps judged unnecessary since they were certainly aware that the twins were sleeping soundly, and were also aware that they were being constantly monitored by doctors.
What scientific training have you had ?
The two children were unresponsive.
On those grounds alone, reason to suspect they may have been drugged or an anesthetic.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 08:34:22 AM
On those grounds alone, reason to suspect they may have been drugged or an anesthetic.
Did we ever discover where the words "unresponsive" when describing the twins come from?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 04, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
I can't remember who it was, but I do recall someone observing that one or other of the twins appeared to be asleep in his/her father's arms as they boarded the aeroplane to come home from Portugal, with the roar of the engines to accompany them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2017, 08:41:04 AM
Did we ever discover where the words "unresponsive" when describing the twins come from?
I was thinking that myself The twins were not medically unresponsive but more likely on a deep sleep So who first used the word unresponsive giving birth to another myth
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 08:45:09 AM
Did we ever discover where the words "unresponsive" when describing the twins come from?
Thanks for the text from http://www.anorak.co.uk/280250/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-first-extracts-of-kate-mccanns-book.html/ Extract from her book "“I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their front in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Scared for them too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too?”" Does someone else use the word "unresponsive"?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 08:57:27 AM
I was thinking that myself The twins were not medically unresponsive but more likely on a deep sleep So who first used the word unresponsive giving birth to another myth
I searched Google and it seemed to be in the comments where the words unresponsive were found.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 04, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
So correct me if I'm wrong. Did you not speculate in your post that Kate may have thought that the twins had been gassed?
From your post:
'The McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed'
And this
' So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time.'
Yes, so why are you asking ME to justify the theory that gas may have been used. Did you not read the last couple of sentences of my post or did you give up before then?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2017, 09:37:53 AM
So claiming the twins were unresponsive is another muth
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2017, 09:40:35 AM
Hmmn &%+((£ the plot thickens, spiked hot chocolate and taser guns. Actually a handkerchief soaked in any suitable solvent would do the job just as well, takes seconds to apply and leaves no fumes. Would knock a child out in seconds and can be reapplied at will when necessary.
I honestly don't think it would have been necessary to sedate any of the children. They were asleep. If you pick up a sleeping child it doesn't start screaming immediately, if at all, and certainly not within the timeframe of entering the bedroom, scooping one up and leaving which could be done within a minute. There have been dozens of reports of "gas attacks" on sleeping holiday makers, including families, which have been roundly ridiculed on here and elsewhere. The fact is that in most of these cases the families believed that they must have been gassed or sedated because they didn't wake up, and cannot believe that they slept all the way through a robbery that took place inches from their sleeping bodies. The gas story is therefore a way of trying to rationalise what seems compeletely irrational to them. I think that's what the McCanns may have done, and what some of us are also doing - trying to come up with an explanation for what is a simple everyday phenenomenon - ie: deep sleep.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 04, 2017, 01:32:01 PM
I honestly don't think it would have been necessary to sedate any of the children. They were asleep. If you pick up a sleeping child it doesn't start screaming immediately, if at all, and certainly not within the timeframe of entering the bedroom, scooping one up and leaving which could be done within a minute. There have been dozens of reports of "gas attacks" on sleeping holiday makers, including families, which have been roundly ridiculed on here and elsewhere. The fact is that in most of these cases the families believed that they must have been gassed or sedated because they didn't wake up, and cannot believe that they slept all the way through a robbery that took place inches from their sleeping bodies. The gas story is therefore a way of trying to rationalise what seems compeletely irrational to them. I think that's what the McCanns may have done, and what some of us are also doing - trying to come up with an explanation for what is a simple everyday phenenomenon - ie: deep sleep.
Oh yes! and by police forces and the Royal College of Anaesthetists too. See earlier links. So that leaves sedation by gas in the boondocks.The only other option using gas is oygen depletion using an inert such as N2. I'll give you all the guff including how to do the calculations then you can work it out for yourself. The only problem apart from the extent of kit required is that the O2 level must be maintained which in turn means anyone in the room would also be hypoxic unless they were using BA. So inerts go into the boondocks as well. Now what is left...... &%+((£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 04, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Oh yes! and by police forces and the Royal College of Anaesthetists too. See earlier links. So that leaves sedation by gas in the boondocks.The only other option using gas is oygen depletion using an inert such as N2. I'll give you all the guff including how to do the calculations then you can work it out for yourself. The only problem apart from the extent of kit required is that the O2 level must be maintained which in turn means anyone in the room would also be hypoxic unless they were using BA. So inerts go into the boondocks as well. Now what is left...... &%+((£
You still don't seem to get it - I don't need you to give me the guff, you've supplied quite enough of that already since you joined the forum. I know that the use of gas is a highly unlikely method of sedation in these situations so stop grandstanding and try and understand the point I am making.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 04, 2017, 01:47:36 PM
You still don't seem to get it - I don't need you to give me the guff, you've supplied quite enough of that already since you joined the forum. I know that the use of gas is a highly unlikely method of sedation in these situations so stop grandstanding and try and understand the point I am making.
I understand the point you are making. It is called a volte face in the better parts of Hackney.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 04, 2017, 02:02:42 PM
In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated.
Here is my original post again in which I have highlighted parts which seem to have been left un-read or deliberately ignored.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 12:05:22 AM
Yes, so why are you asking ME to justify the theory that gas may have been used. Did you not read the last couple of sentences of my post or did you give up before then?
Please do not make yourself appear any more foolish than you do already. You said Kate may have thought the twins had been gassed. Do you really think this is an excuse for not trying to summon medical help?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 12:12:48 AM
Here is my original post again in which I have highlighted parts which seem to have been left un-read or deliberately ignored.
Unfortunately your opinion matters not one jot Alfie. Kate, who was there and also knew the sleeping habits of her children, believed their unresponsiveness was unnatural. So we are still left with that oh so nagging of questions....why did she not seek medical help when she found her children unnaturally unresponsive ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 05, 2017, 03:57:18 AM
Unfortunately your opinion matters not one jot Alfie. Kate, who was there and also knew the sleeping habits of her children, believed their unresponsiveness was unnatural. So we are still left with that oh so nagging of questions....why did she not seek medical help when she found her children unnaturally unresponsive ?
The question is can you prove she didn't and it was those she asked for help who did nothing?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 08:02:48 AM
Please do not make yourself appear any more foolish than you do already. You said Kate may have thought the twins had been gassed. Do you really think this is an excuse for not trying to summon medical help?
Perhaps you can point to any part of my post where I proffered the gas theory as an excuse for Kate not getting help? Are you really unable to real my posts without seeing things that aren't there?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 08:04:34 AM
Unfortunately your opinion matters not one jot Alfie. Kate, who was there and also knew the sleeping habits of her children, believed their unresponsiveness was unnatural. So we are still left with that oh so nagging of questions....why did she not seek medical help when she found her children unnaturally unresponsive ?
When I am being accused of holding an opinion which I do not hold then it is important for me to clarify what I said, even if it means writing it large and bold. You may prefer to see things in my posts which aren't there but I think that's a bit silly.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 08:09:32 AM
Unfortunately your opinion matters not one jot Alfie. Kate, who was there and also knew the sleeping habits of her children, believed their unresponsiveness was unnatural. So we are still left with that oh so nagging of questions....why did she not seek medical help when she found her children unnaturally unresponsive ?
Let's not forget that your opinion on why Kate McCann did not seek medical help matters not a jot either, so where does that leave us?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 09:29:55 AM
Perhaps you can point to any part of my post where I proffered the gas theory as an excuse for Kate not getting help? Are you really unable to real my posts without seeing things that aren't there?
So do you agree that if Kate thought the twins had been gassed the first thing she should have done is summon medical help?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 05, 2017, 09:55:10 AM
So do you agree that if Kate thought the twins had been gassed the first thing she should have done is summon medical help?
Just a reminder of the state Kate was in after she found Madeleine missing, from Fiona's statement -
'Awful, erm, I've never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I've seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn't know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn't know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying 'I've let her down. We've let her down Gerry', you know, 'We should have been here'. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don't think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we're all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what's going to make a difference. And Kate's ringing, Gerry's ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don't, they honestly just didn't know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry's in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking 'At least I can pray for Madeleine' and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn't functioning'.
Kate wasn't functioning, but even though she wasn't functioning at the back of her mind was the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's and the thought, had the abductor tried the night before, and so in the midst of all the chaos she asks if the twins could be tested for drugs. In my opinion I don't think the Police Officer took it seriously, ok he said in a statement three months later that the twins were sleeping through the noise, but that was after Amaral had come up with his theory of the Calpol.
Fiona was watching the twins, and we don't know whether they rolled into a different sleeping position, which people who unconscious do not do.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
So do you agree that if Kate thought the twins had been gassed the first thing she should have done is summon medical help?
I refer you to my post #24 on this thread. I have said pretty much the same thing throughout this thread and my position hasn't altered. I know that you think Kate should have zoomed off in an ambulance with the twins the minute she thought there was something unusual in their behaviour and I know that it gives you great pleasure to criticise the woman for not doing so. I refuse to be judgemental on the matter as I wasn't there and was not in her shoes, but if it pleases you to keep harping on about the matter then that's your choice. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 05, 2017, 10:04:31 AM
Just a reminder of the state Kate was in after she found Madeleine missing, from Fiona's statement -
'Awful, erm, I've never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I've seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn't know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn't know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying 'I've let her down. We've let her down Gerry', you know, 'We should have been here'. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don't think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we're all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what's going to make a difference. And Kate's ringing, Gerry's ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don't, they honestly just didn't know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry's in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking 'At least I can pray for Madeleine' and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn't functioning'.
Kate wasn't functioning, but even though she wasn't functioning at the back of her mind was the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's and the thought, had the abductor tried the night before, and so in the midst of all the chaos she asks if the twins could be tested for drugs. In my opinion I don't think the Police Officer took it seriously, ok he said in a statement three months later that the twins were sleeping through the noise, but that was after Amaral had come up with his theory of the Calpol.
Fiona was watching the twins, and we don't know whether they rolled into a different sleeping position, which people who unconscious do not do.
I have yet to see anything that evidences Kate asking for the twins to be tested around the time of the incident. Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 10:04:55 AM
Just a reminder of the state Kate was in after she found Madeleine missing, from Fiona's statement -
'Awful, erm, I've never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I've seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn't know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn't know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying 'I've let her down. We've let her down Gerry', you know, 'We should have been here'. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don't think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we're all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what's going to make a difference. And Kate's ringing, Gerry's ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don't, they honestly just didn't know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry's in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking 'At least I can pray for Madeleine' and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn't functioning'.
Kate wasn't functioning, but even though she wasn't functioning at the back of her mind was the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's and the thought, had the abductor tried the night before, and so in the midst of all the chaos she asks if the twins could be tested for drugs. In my opinion I don't think the Police Officer took it seriously, ok he said in a statement three months later that the twins were sleeping through the noise, but that was after Amaral had come up with his theory of the Calpol.
Fiona was watching the twins, and we don't know whether they rolled into a different sleeping position, which people who unconscious do not do.
So where is the evidence, apart from Kate's claim 4 years later, that she asked the twins to be tested for anything? Even Gerry refutes her statement.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 10:08:39 AM
I refer you to my post #24 on this thread. I have said pretty much the same thing throughout this thread and my position hasn't altered. I know that you think Kate should have zoomed off in an ambulance with the twins the minute she thought there was something unusual in their behaviour and I know that it gives you great pleasure to criticise the woman for not doing so. I refuse to be judgemental on the matter as I wasn't there and was not in her shoes, but if it pleases you to keep harping on about the matter then that's your choice. Enjoy.
What brings me great pleasure Alfie is not what Kate did or didn't do that night but watching you performing contortions trying to explain it. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 10:13:27 AM
What brings me great pleasure Alfie is not what Kate did or didn't do that night but watching you performing contortions trying to explain it. @)(++(*
Glad to be of service as always. As I mentioned before I am not Kate McCann and am therefore not accountable for her actions, nor able to explain her every thought, action and deed anymore than you are. The difference between us however is that I am open minded enough to give the woman the benefit of the doubt, you on the other hand hold the woman in such contempt that you only see malevolence in her every thought, action and deed. Not only that you clearly spend far too much time dreaming up new angles of attack on the woman, and your contribution to this thread is testament to that. If this was such an issue, why wasn't this apparent dereliction of duty mentioned in any of the questions but to the McCanns by the police or by Amaral in his book?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 05, 2017, 10:18:18 AM
Glad to be of service as always. As I mentioned before I am not Kate McCann and am therefore not accountable for her actions, nor able to explain her every thought, action and deed anymore than you are. The difference between us however is that I am open minded enough to give the woman the benefit of the doubt, you on the other hand hold the woman in such contempt that you only see malevolence in her every thought, action and deed. Not only that you clearly spend far too much time dreaming up new angles of attack on the woman, and your contribution to this thread is testament to that. If this was such an issue, why wasn't this apparent dereliction of duty mentioned in any of the questions but to the McCanns by the police or by Amaral in his book?
So often what one perceives in others can be the mirror-image of the opposite state of mind.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 05, 2017, 10:32:29 AM
Would you like to explain how you have come to that conclusion? I await your answer with interest.
Bear with me while I deliberate on whether to give it two pithy sentences or the full dog and pony show. Then on the other hand I could just ignore it and let others read your contributions to the thread and form their own opinions.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2017, 10:38:40 AM
Just a reminder of the state Kate was in after she found Madeleine missing, from Fiona's statement -
'Awful, erm, I've never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I've seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn't know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn't know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying 'I've let her down. We've let her down Gerry', you know, 'We should have been here'. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don't think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we're all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what's going to make a difference. And Kate's ringing, Gerry's ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don't, they honestly just didn't know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry's in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking 'At least I can pray for Madeleine' and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn't functioning'.
Kate wasn't functioning, but even though she wasn't functioning at the back of her mind was the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's and the thought, had the abductor tried the night before, and so in the midst of all the chaos she asks if the twins could be tested for drugs. In my opinion I don't think the Police Officer took it seriously, ok he said in a statement three months later that the twins were sleeping through the noise, but that was after Amaral had come up with his theory of the Calpol.
Fiona was watching the twins, and we don't know whether they rolled into a different sleeping position, which people who unconscious do not do.
Kate's extreme emotional state is often routinely ignored by many sceptics. Why anyone would expect any mother in that situation to be able to behave logically and calmly as if she had just found out that a thief had broken into their apartment and stolen their camera - is totally beyond me.
Thankfully I have never experienced losing my child - for even a few seconds, as other people have in supermarkets, on the beach etc. However those who have will know what a terrible nightmare that is - and will remember their enormous relief when their child is found safe and well - and so will have some understanding of Kate's state of mind.
Kate's child was not found safe and well - and those who criticise her for not being able to behave or think rationally in those terrible first hours are only proving they have no ability to put themselves in another person's shoes IMO.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 10:41:37 AM
Bear with me while I deliberate on whether to give it two pithy sentences or the full dog and pony show. Then on the other hand I could just ignore it and let others read your contributions to the thread and form their own opinions.
For sure. If they are able to read and comprehend English they will be sure to see there has been no "volte face" from me, only a silly bit of grandstanding from yourself.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 10:49:17 AM
Glad to be of service as always. As I mentioned before I am not Kate McCann and am therefore not accountable for her actions, nor able to explain her every thought, action and deed anymore than you are. The difference between us however is that I am open minded enough to give the woman the benefit of the doubt, you on the other hand hold the woman in such contempt that you only see malevolence in her every thought, action and deed. Not only that you clearly spend far too much time dreaming up new angles of attack on the woman, and your contribution to this thread is testament to that. If this was such an issue, why wasn't this apparent dereliction of duty mentioned in any of the questions but to the McCanns by the police or by Amaral in his book?
The PJ did mention the twins unresponsive state.
Gerry's arguido statement :
' --- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate.'
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 10:56:40 AM
Kate's extreme emotional state is often routinely ignored by many sceptics. Why anyone would expect any mother in that situation to be able to behave logically and calmly as if she had just found out that a thief had broken into their apartment and stolen their camera - is totally beyond me.
Thankfully I have never experienced losing my child - for even a few seconds, as other people have in supermarkets, on the beach etc. However those who have will know what a terrible nightmare that is - and will remember their enormous relief when their child is found safe and well - and so will have some understanding of Kate's state of mind.
Kate's child was not found safe and well - and those who criticise her for not being able to behave or think rationally in those terrible first hours are only proving they have no ability to put themselves in another person's shoes IMO.
AIMHO
Kate was controlled enough to ask for a priest but not medical help. Really?
And Gerry was controlled enough to phone and text family and friends but not ask for an ambulance. Really?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2017, 11:32:52 AM
Kate was controlled enough to ask for a priest but not medical help. Really?
And Gerry was controlled enough to phone and text family and friends but not ask for an ambulance. Really?
IMO you obviously find the above to be illogical. People in deep shock do not behave in a logical manner. Surely from your own point of view you are simply proving that point with those two examples?
From my own POV - I don't find anything the McCanns did to be 'sinister' in any way. Their reactions were their reactions. You may find their reactions do not conform with how you you would have reacted - but they are not you are they?
There is a myriad of possible different reactions by human beings to severe trauma. None of them are wrong - just different.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 11:47:50 AM
' --- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate.'
I know they did, what they didn't question was Kate's alleged dereliction of duty in rushing them to hospital as you claim any caring, loving parent would certainly have done in the circumstances.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 11:49:42 AM
Kate was controlled enough to ask for a priest but not medical help. Really?
And Gerry was controlled enough to phone and text family and friends but not ask for an ambulance. Really?
You have excused some of the barmier parts of your own theory on the McCanns being in a panicked state - so were they panicked or controlled? You choose!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 05, 2017, 11:52:27 AM
IMO you obviously find the above to be illogical. People in deep shock do not behave in a logical manner. Surely from your own point of view you are simply proving that point with those two examples?
From my own POV - I don't find anything the McCanns did to be 'sinister' in any way. Their reactions were their reactions. You may find their reactions do not conform with how you you would have reacted - but they are not you are they?
There is a myriad of possible different reactions by human beings to severe trauma. None of them are wrong - just different.
So do you believe Kate raised her concerns with the PJ even the translator doesn't mention it, neither do any officers from the GNR or the PJ or her friends and indeed Gerry himself denies it happened?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 05, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
Kate was controlled enough to ask for a priest but not medical help. Really?
And Gerry was controlled enough to phone and text family and friends but not ask for an ambulance. Really?
Kate asked for a priest as she was distraught about Madeleine and felt desperate enough to think that praying would help. Are you unable to imagine what this woman was going through? Fiona was there with the twins, Kate was hardly functioning.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 05, 2017, 12:18:40 PM
So do you believe Kate raised her concerns with the PJ even the translator doesn't mention it, neither do any officers from the GNR or the PJ or her friends and indeed Gerry himself denies it happened?
Strange how three months later the Officer mentions that the twins were sleeping through the noise, how would he know this was normal or not. I know children who have slept through an open concert with loud music playing.
Three months later when Amaral gives his theory about a sleepy Madeleine who had been given Calpol to help her sleep.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2017, 12:41:41 PM
So do you believe Kate raised her concerns with the PJ even the translator doesn't mention it, neither do any officers from the GNR or the PJ or her friends and indeed Gerry himself denies it happened?
Just because it isn't recorded in the files that we have access to doesn't mean it didn't happen. There must have been hundreds of conversations going on between various people during that time that have not been mentioned in the summaries.
We do know that on the 5th May the FLO's were asked to make enquiries to the PJ on the McCanns behalf re the possibility of drug use. I doubt if the FLO would make that claim if they didn't carry it through. What we don't know is whether they got a reply or not. If the PJ did not reply - would they want that fact to enter the public domain? Is there a statement somewhere that was not released. Who knows
What we do know is that we only have access to SOME of the overall information known to OG and the Oporto team - and we have no idea what has been held back or why - which is why I think it's a mistake to keep coming to conclusions as if we do have ALL the information - when we clearly don't.
It may be that many of the 'debates' we have on here are subjects which SY and the Oporto team do not have to query or investigate - because they already have the answers in the files that we don't have access to.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 05, 2017, 01:16:07 PM
of For sure. If they are able to read and comprehend English they will be sure to see there has been no "volte face" from me, only a silly bit of grandstanding from yourself.
Perhaps you could explain how having knowledge of fluid dynamics together with how to apply that knowledge to atmospehere* control and the equipment needed is "grandstanding" ?. It was the principle of the subject under discussion after all or had you not realised that?
* in the wider sense of the word.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 05, 2017, 02:03:02 PM
Just because it isn't recorded in the files that we have access to doesn't mean it didn't happen. There must have been hundreds of conversations going on between various people during that time that have not been mentioned in the summaries.
We do know that on the 5th May the FLO's were asked to make enquiries to the PJ on the McCanns behalf re the possibility of drug use. I doubt if the FLO would make that claim if they didn't carry it through. What we don't know is whether they got a reply or not. If the PJ did not reply - would they want that fact to enter the public domain? Is there a statement somewhere that was not released. Who knows
What we do know is that we only have access to SOME of the overall information known to OG and the Oporto team - and we have no idea what has been held back or why - which is why I think it's a mistake to keep coming to conclusions as if we do have ALL the information - when we clearly don't.
It may be that many of the 'debates' we have on here are subjects which SY and the Oporto team do not have to query or investigate - because they already have the answers in the files that we don't have access to.
AIMHO
This is a bucket load of speculation wrapped around a paucity of facts.
If the anti-McCanns did this, the supporters would be crying foul.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 02:33:28 PM
Perhaps you could explain how having knowledge of fluid dynamics together with how to apply that knowledge to atmospehere* control and the equipment needed is "grandstanding" ?. It was the principle of the subject under discussion after all or had you not realised that?
* in the wider sense of the word.
Sure, I'll explain it just as soon as I get your explanation of my "volte face".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 02:44:53 PM
Why ever not? I am supposed to be pruning back speculation.
I note that the two replies do not contest that the bulk of the post I mentioned was speculation.
It's just that I never see you criticise "sceptics" posts, but perhaps that is because their posts all make perfect sense, include no speculation and are all very respectful of Portugal, the Portuguese and that. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 05, 2017, 05:39:44 PM
This is a bucket load of speculation wrapped around a paucity of facts.
If the anti-McCanns did this, the supporters would be crying foul.
In your opinion. IMO it goes without saying that experts who have all the available evidence to hand, are in a far better position to re-investigate this case and arrive at correct conclusions than people like us who have no access at all to some of that evidence - no access to witnesses - and are not experts. That's not speculation it's merely a simple fact of life IMO.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 05, 2017, 05:50:53 PM
In your opinion. IMO it goes without saying that experts who have all the available evidence to hand, are in a far better position to re-investigate this case and arrive at correct conclusions than people like us who have no access at all to some of that evidence - no access to witnesses - and are not experts. That's not speculation it's merely a simple fact of life IMO.
Hit the nail on the head there IMO!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 05, 2017, 06:43:35 PM
What? Your post makes no sense. [color=maroon]You accused me of a "volte face"[/color] - now put up the evidence of this volte face or admit you were mistaken.
That is correct The evidence is on this thread I wasn't mistaken Your attempts at bossiness/aggression are not in the least impressive tending to be rather ineffectual.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 05, 2017, 06:49:15 PM
Just because it isn't recorded in the files that we have access to doesn't mean it didn't happen. There must have been hundreds of conversations going on between various people during that time that have not been mentioned in the summaries.
We do know that on the 5th May the FLO's were asked to make enquiries to the PJ on the McCanns behalf re the possibility of drug use. I doubt if the FLO would make that claim if they didn't carry it through. What we don't know is whether they got a reply or not. If the PJ did not reply - would they want that fact to enter the public domain? Is there a statement somewhere that was not released. Who knows
What we do know is that we only have access to SOME of the overall information known to OG and the Oporto team - and we have no idea what has been held back or why - which is why I think it's a mistake to keep coming to conclusions as if we do have ALL the information - when we clearly don't.
It may be that many of the 'debates' we have on here are subjects which SY and the Oporto team do not have to query or investigate - because they already have the answers in the files that we don't have access to.
AIMHO
Just because something was written in a book years after the event doesn't mean it did happen, either. Particularly when the witnesses who were being addressed seem not to have heard it.
The FLOs were asked a specific question which was if the PJ had any evidence that Madeleine had been drugged. Whether that question was asked or not, or answered or not doesn't matter because we know the answer was no.
Some files were withheld by the Portuguese and we have been told what they are, there's a list;
Since then the PI's, OG and the PJ have taken other statements and carried out other investigations, but they are unlikely to contain new information about a conversation between the GNR officers and Kate McCann on the night of 3rd May. The GNR officers and Silvia Batista didn't report the conversation in their statements to the PJ, so it's unlikely they remembered it later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 05, 2017, 06:56:44 PM
I would tend to go with the claims that have been written.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 05, 2017, 09:27:03 PM
That is correct The evidence is on this thread I wasn't mistaken Your attempts at bossiness/aggression are not in the least impressive tending to be rather ineffectual.
There is no evdence of any volte face by me on this thread so would you kindly stop saying so, it's mischevious and insulting to me, many thanks.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 09:29:24 AM
There is no evdence of any volte face by me on this thread so would you kindly stop saying so, it's mischevious and insulting to me, many thanks.
Admit it Alfie your volte face was quicker the George Osborne's on tax credits @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 10:07:28 AM
volte-face.
1.an act of turning round so as to face in the opposite direction.
2.an abrupt and complete reversal of attitude, opinion, or position:
Perhaps one of you geniuses can point out anything I have written on this thread since this post which constitutes a "volte face" from this opinion?
Quote
In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated.
Failure to do so will prove that you are both taking the piss.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
So you didn't say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 10:11:28 AM
So you didn't say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed ?
FFS. YES I DID!!!!! Now find the post where I said she may not have thought this.
Jesus wept.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 10:13:42 AM
Serious question - are Faithlilly and Alice under the impression that I am Kate McCann? It's the only explanation for this bizarre accusation of a "volte face" that I can come up with.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
FFS. YES I DID!!!!! Now find the post where I said she may not have thought this.
Jesus wept.
So you did say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed. Glad we got that sorted out.
Now can you tell me why not getting help if she thought they had been gassed is any less negligent than not getting help if they had been sedated by any other method?
BTW Alfie what in heavens name makes you think Kate thought the twins may have been gassed in the first place? Aerie there pointers to your theory?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 10:45:40 AM
So you did say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed. Glad we got that sorted out.
Now can you tell me why not getting help if she thought they had been gassed is any less negligent than not getting help if they had been sedated by any other method?
As I have never stated it is any more or any less negligent I fail to understand why you keep on and on asking me this question. My post about the gas was nothing to do with Kate's alleged negligence in any way shape or form (we had already done that aspect of the discussion to death), but an attempt to move the discussion on to why she might have been under the impression that the children had been sedated in the first place, ie: because of media reports of alleged gassings and robberies on the continent. If you can't understand this and cannot see that this is not me having a complete 180 degree change of opinion then really there is no hope for us being able to communicate like adults.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 10:50:54 AM
So you did say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed. Glad we got that sorted out.
Now can you tell me why not getting help if she thought they had been gassed is any less negligent than not getting help if they had been sedated by any other method?
BTW Alfie what in heavens name makes you think Kate thought the twins may have been gassed in the first place? Aerie there pointers to your theory?
from my post that you are having such great difficulty reading and understanding: "In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them)..."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 10:53:55 AM
As I have never stated it is any more or any less negligent I fail to understand why you keep on and on asking me this question. My post about the gas was nothing to do with Kate's alleged negligence in any way shape or form (we had already done that aspect of the discussion to death), but an attempt to move the discussion on to why she might have been under the impression that the children had been sedated in the first place, ie: because of media reports of alleged gassings and robberies on the continent. If you can't understand this and cannot see that this is not me having a complete 180 degree change of opinion then really there is no hope for us being able to communicate like adults.
So the gassing theory was simply plucked out of the air?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 11:03:00 AM
So the gassing theory was simply plucked out of the air?
It wasn't a theory - I was giving an opinion on why a mother, on holiday on the continent on finding one child missing and the others seemingly in an unnaturally deep sleep, might jump to the conclusion that her kids had been sedated. That reason being - media stories in the press (of which there have been dozens over the years) of holidaymakers being gassed and robbed. If you re-read my post you will see that that is exactly what I wrote and there has been no change of view or "volte face". Thank you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 11:11:32 AM
It wasn't a theory - I was giving an opinion on why a mother, on holiday on the continent on finding one child missing and the others seemingly in an unnaturally deep sleep, might jump to the conclusion that her kids had been sedated. That reason being - media stories in the press (of which there have been dozens over the years) of holidaymakers being gassed and robbed. If you re-read my post you will see that that is exactly what I wrote and there has been no change of view or "volte face". Thank you.
So why in Madeleine, her police interviews and the numerous media interviews she has given since the disappearance has Kate never claimed she thought the twins may have been gassed?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 06, 2017, 11:17:42 AM
So you did say Kate may have thought the twins may have been gassed. Glad we got that sorted out.
Now can you tell me why not getting help if she thought they had been gassed is any less negligent than not getting help if they had been sedated by any other method?
She might have thought gas had been used, she might have thought a pad had been used, she might have thought any number of things. But there again she might just as easily not have thought any of those things. We simply don't know.
The idea that because a poster on the net suggests that it's a possibility that she MAY (not that she definitely DID,) but that she MAY have thought gas might have been used is then used to try to make a case for negligence against Kate McCann herself is really scraping through the bottom of the barrel imo.
There is no evidence that Kate believed gas had been used. Unless you can show evidence that she did your question is totally irrelevant and just another attempt to bash the McCanns yet again - this time via a single remark made by another forum poster i.e. Alfie - who has already explained his reasons for making it.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 11:24:37 AM
So why in Madeleine, her police interviews and the numerous media interviews she has given since the disappearance has Kate never claimed she thought the twins may have been gassed?
I don't think she mentioned any specific means of sedation did she? Look, it was simply conjecture on my part, as I made explicitly clear in my post. You don't have to accept it, I did say I could be completely wrong and if that's the conclusion you want to draw then that's absolutely fine by me, but please don't accuse me of "volte face" because I did not. I hope that's now understood and we can move on from this tedious discussion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 11:26:25 AM
She might have thought gas had been used, she might have thought a pad had been used, she might have thought any number of things. But there again she might just as easily not have thought any of those things. We simply don't know.
The idea that because a poster on the net suggests that it's a possibility that she MAY (not that she definitely DID,) but that she MAY have thought gas might have been used is then used to try to make a case for negligence against Kate McCann herself is really scraping through the bottom of the barrel imo.
There is no evidence that Kate believed gas had been used. Unless you can show evidence that she did your question is totally irrelevant and just another attempt to bash the McCanns yet again - this time via a single remark made by another forum poster i.e. Alfie - who has already explained his reasons for making it.
AIMHO
Well exactly. I believe this is a well worn tactic, and I even alluded to such tactics in my "offending" post (ie: don't ascribe my thoughts to Kate McCann and don't all jump down my throat at the mention of gas - I knew that was too much to hope for!)
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 11:38:40 AM
She might have thought gas had been used, she might have thought a pad had been used, she might have thought any number of things. But there again she might just as easily not have thought any of those things. We simply don't know.
The idea that because a poster on the net suggests that it's a possibility that she MAY (not that she definitely DID,) but that she MAY have thought gas might have been used is then used to try to make a case for negligence against Kate McCann herself is really scraping through the bottom of the barrel imo.
There is no evidence that Kate believed gas had been used. Unless you can show evidence that she did your question is totally irrelevant and just another attempt to bash the McCanns yet again - this time via a single remark made by another forum poster i.e. Alfie - who has already explained his reasons for making it.
AIMHO
And with the greatest respect your fellow poster's conjecture was simply another attempt to explain away the fact that the McCanns, when they had concerns that their children had been sedated by an unknown, potentially lethal drug, did nothing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 11:41:49 AM
And with the greatest respect your fellow poster's conjecture was simply another attempt to explain away the fact that the McCanns, when they had concerns that their children had been sedated by an unknown, potentially lethal drug, did nothing.
Please stop lying. I have already stated several times that my post was simply to volunteer a reason for why Kate McCann may have thought the children were sedated NOT to explain why she "did nothing" - why do you keep doing this?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 11:48:00 AM
»
QuoteQuote from: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 05:26:49 PM
You seem to be under the impression that I wrote this as a reason why Kate did not take the twins to the hospital, am I correct in thinking that is your belief?
Reply from : Faithlilly Reply #566 on: January 03, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
No you said you believe Kate may have believed the twins had been gassed. I asked why not seeking medical advice if they had been gassed is any more acceptable than if they had been sedated in any other way?
-----
It seems the 'volte facing' around here is coming from you Faithlilly.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 11:55:27 AM
QuoteQuote from: Alfie on January 03, 2017, 05:26:49 PM
You seem to be under the impression that I wrote this as a reason why Kate did not take the twins to the hospital, am I correct in thinking that is your belief?
Give it up Alfie, do.
Reply from : Faithlilly Reply #566 on: January 03, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
No you said you believe Kate may have believed the twins had been gassed. I asked why not seeking medical advice if they had been gassed is any more acceptable than if they had been sedated in any other way?
-----
It seems the 'volte facing' around here is coming from you Faithlilly.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 06, 2017, 12:12:04 PM
As I have never stated it is any more or any less negligent I fail to understand why you keep on and on asking me this question. My post about the gas was nothing to do with Kate's alleged negligence in any way shape or form (we had already done that aspect of the discussion to death), but an attempt to move the discussion on to why she might have been under the impression that the children had been sedated in the first place,ie: because of media reports of alleged gassings and robberies on the continent. If you can't understand this and cannot see that this is not me having a complete 180 degree change of opinion then really there is no hope for us being able to communicate like adults.
I do not think you are Kate McCann. We know these stories were floating about by 2015 but is there evidence to prove they had currency in 2007. Considering the stories were booted into touch by the Royal College of Anaesthetists and Dr K McCann was once a practicing anaesthetist the "excuse" sounds a bit thin.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 12:16:04 PM
I do not think you are Kate McCann. We know these stories were floating about by 2015 but is there evidence to prove they had currency in 2007. Considering the stories were booted into touch by the Royal College of Anaesthetists and Dr K McCann was once a practicing anaesthetist the "excuse" sounds a bit thin.
Thinner than a catwalk model !
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 06, 2017, 12:26:48 PM
And with the greatest respect your fellow poster's conjecture was simply another attempt to explain away the fact that the McCanns, when they had concerns that their children had been sedated by an unknown, potentially lethal drug, did nothing.
In your opinion. IMO the fact they brought it up with the FLO's on the 5th was because the concerns they mentioned on the 3rd had not resulted in any feedback from the PJ. I also believe the language barrier really worked against them in those first few hours.
I don't believe Kate thought they had been sedated with a potentially lethal drug - neither did any of the other doctors - otherwise they would have taken more drastic action. The fact that the twins were sleeping soundly was normal for them anyway - IOW they were not light sleepers - which could explain why they didn't wake up. That would influence the level of her concern IMO.
Add to that the terrible state of abject terror and anxiety both parents were in - worsening by the minute, then any idea that they should have been thinking calmly and logically - believing as they did that their daughter had just been abducted, is so unrealistic it's off the scale. They would be consumed with fear for their missing daughter. No parent could think straight in those horrendous circumstances. Their heads would be all over the place.
On the other hand there were policemen there who did find it strange that the twins didn't wake up. Those officers were not in a state of shock and anxiety and IMO should have reported their observations to their superiors asap - who may have suggested to the parents that immediate testing was appropriate.
The fact that there were no formal instructions or guidance available to the police on what to do in these circumstances was unfortunate from all points of view IMO. I sincerely hope that state of affairs has since been addressed.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
I do not think you are Kate McCann. We know these stories were floating about by 2015 but is there evidence to prove they had currency in 2007. Considering the stories were booted into touch by the Royal College of Anaesthetists and Dr K McCann was once a practicing anaesthetist the "excuse" sounds a bit thin.
Please clarify who you think has made an "excuse" and an excuse for what exactly? Yes, these stories have been doing the rounds for years, but you may well be right and that a panicked anaesthetist, on seeing her kids in an apparently unusually deep sleep would immediately discount the possibility of a gas attack. I apologise for raising the idea in the first place, it's so f..king stupid someone should just shoot me and put me out of my misery.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 06, 2017, 12:48:19 PM
Please clarify who you think has made an "excuse" and an excuse for what exactly? Yes, these stories have been doing the rounds for years, but you may well be right and that a panicked anaesthetist, on seeing her kids in an apparently unusually deep sleep would immediately discount the possibility of a gas attack. I apologise for raising the idea in the first place, it's so f....ing stupid someone should just shoot me and put me out of my misery.
I didn't start the deabte nor am I the one who is becoming irritated. I see not in the forum rules where a debate has to carried out in accordance with your instructions or wishes.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 01:01:22 PM
I didn't start the deabte nor am I the one who is becoming irritated. I see not in the forum rules where a debate has to carried out in accordance with your instructions or wishes.
I think one of the rules of any debate is not to falsely and repeatedly accuse your opponent of something they haven't done, in this case"volte face". It would be nice to think that one's opponent in any debate would have the good grace to admit when they were wrong and to apologise but I realise this is out of the question with the likes of you and Faithlilly, so time to move on I guess.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 06, 2017, 01:12:24 PM
She might have thought gas had been used, she might have thought a pad had been used, she might have thought any number of things. But there again she might just as easily not have thought any of those things. We simply don't know.
The idea that because a poster on the net suggests that it's a possibility that she MAY (not that she definitely DID,) but that she MAY have thought gas might have been used is then used to try to make a case for negligence against Kate McCann herself is really scraping through the bottom of the barrel imo.
There is no evidence that Kate believed gas had been used. Unless you can show evidence that she did your question is totally irrelevant and just another attempt to bash the McCanns yet again - this time via a single remark made by another forum poster i.e. Alfie - who has already explained his reasons for making it.
AIMHO
Kate McCann said (long after the event) that she feared her children may have been sedated on 3rd May. She said she kept checking them for signs of life. There's a very simple method of checking if someone is sedated; you wake them up and check their responsiveness. Pointing out that a doctor neglected to carry out that simple test isn't 'McCann bashing'. Someone with first aid training would have known to do that. The measures she took were completely inadequate. Some people have made excuses for her, but it was actually inexcusable if she was really checking for signs of life, because she is suggesting that there may have been no signs of life. That's an urgent and serious matter needing urgent and thorough investigations.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 06, 2017, 01:21:52 PM
Bottom line.
There is nothing to show Madeleine was kidnapped/abducted.
A total fallacy.
The McCann's weren't in the apartment when Madeleine disappeared.
So why did they claim abduction when they didn't know what had happened ?
Easy to answer.
Any other scenario means, THEY TAKE THE BLAME.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 06, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
It wasn't a theory - I was giving an opinion on why a mother, on holiday on the continent on finding one child missing and the others seemingly in an unnaturally deep sleep, might jump to the conclusion that her kids had been sedated. That reason being - media stories in the press (of which there have been dozens over the years) of holidaymakers being gassed and robbed. If you re-read my post you will see that that is exactly what I wrote and there has been no change of view or "volte face". Thank you.
Not that I consider it an important point, but were there really numerous stories of gassings predating May 2007?
I believe the two links you provided are more recent, and personally, I am not aware of a history of these incidents.
I have to say I am dismissive of such gassing being used in burglaries. In the French example, there were young children and adults present. My knowledge of anaesthetics is limited, but I would have thought the dose required to sedate adults would cause damage to the young children.
Apart from a case of blistering, these occasions seem to have no after-effects. No one is woozy or sick or has a headache. No one notices a residual smell.
I seems to be magic gas, which is why I place no trust in these reports.
Now, I understand that you are saying that IF Kate had read of such reports before Madeleine disappeared THEN she might have thought of this. But were such reports common or common enough before May 2007?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 01:46:17 PM
Not that I consider it an important point, but were there really numerous stories of gassings predating May 2007?
I believe the two links you provided are more recent, and personally, I am not aware of a history of these incidents.
I have to say I am dismissive of such gassing being used in burglaries. In the French example, there were young children and adults present. My knowledge of anaesthetics is limited, but I would have thought the dose required to sedate adults would cause damage to the young children.
Apart from a case of blistering, these occasions seem to have no after-effects. No one is woozy or sick or has a headache. No one notices a residual smell.
I seems to be magic gas, which is why I place no trust in these reports.
Now, I understand that you are saying that IF Kate had read of such reports before Madeleine disappeared THEN she might have thought of this. But were such reports common or common enough before May 2007?
Well here is a post from a forum dated 2006, I found it in less than a minute's googling, I expect there's other evidence to support it
08-08-2006, 17:23 Thread Starter .
whistlinggypsy
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southport. Merseyside
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gas attacks
i have just heard that there will be a piece on the Richard & Judy show at 17.00hrs tonight about gas attacks and robberies in Europe on holiday makers, it may be worth a look if you have the time.
Bob http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20-motorhome-chitchat/15379-gas-attacks.html
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 01:47:35 PM
Kate McCann said (long after the event) that she feared her children may have been sedated on 3rd May. She said she kept checking them for signs of life. There's a very simple method of checking if someone is sedated; you wake them up and check their responsiveness. Pointing out that a doctor neglected to carry out that simple test isn't 'McCann bashing'. Someone with first aid training would have known to do that. The measures she took were completely inadequate. Some people have made excuses for her, but it was actually inexcusable if she was really checking for signs of life, because she is suggesting that there may have been no signs of life. That's an urgent and serious matter needing urgent and thorough investigations.
Are you actually suggesting that Kate McCann feared that her children might have been dead and didn't check to verify one way or the other? OMG.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 06, 2017, 01:50:09 PM
In your opinion. IMO the fact they brought it up with the FLO's on the 5th was because the concerns they mentioned on the 3rd had not resulted in any feedback from the PJ. I also believe the language barrier really worked against them in those first few hours.
I don't believe Kate thought they had been sedated with a potentially lethal drug - neither did any of the other doctors - otherwise they would have taken more drastic action. The fact that the twins were sleeping soundly was normal for them anyway - IOW they were not light sleepers - which could explain why they didn't wake up. That would influence the level of her concern IMO.
Add to that the terrible state of abject terror and anxiety both parents were in - worsening by the minute, then any idea that they should have been thinking calmly and logically - believing as they did that their daughter had just been abducted, is so unrealistic it's off the scale. They would be consumed with fear for their missing daughter. No parent could think straight in those horrendous circumstances. Their heads would be all over the place.
On the other hand there were policemen there who did find it strange that the twins didn't wake up. Those officers were not in a state of shock and anxiety and IMO should have reported their observations to their superiors asap - who may have suggested to the parents that immediate testing was appropriate.
The fact that there were no formal instructions or guidance available to the police on what to do in these circumstances was unfortunate from all points of view IMO. I sincerely hope that state of affairs has since been addressed.
AIMHO
I know I get lost trying to read across multiple threads, but has it ever been established or asserted that the McCanns brought it up with PJ on the 3rd? I presume you mean the early hours of the 4th, since the PJ did not arrive until then? Or are you talking about a conversation with the GNR?
As to your implication that the GNR officers should have known more about the sleeping patterns of the twins than the parents, sorry, that does not fly. If it did, the GNR officers should have arrested the McCanns that night on nothing more than thinking the parents' behaviour was odd.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 06, 2017, 02:03:22 PM
Well here is a post from a forum dated 2006, I found it in less than a minute's googling, I expect there's other evidence to support it
08-08-2006, 17:23 Thread Starter .
whistlinggypsy
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southport. Merseyside
Posts: 2,407
Thanks: 0
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gas attacks
i have just heard that there will be a piece on the Richard & Judy show at 17.00hrs tonight about gas attacks and robberies in Europe on holiday makers, it may be worth a look if you have the time.
Bob http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20-motorhome-chitchat/15379-gas-attacks.html
Thanks for this. Now we have some evidence that the concept predated May 2007.
Not being a Richard & Judy fan, I personally would not have seen the show. I wonder if it related specifically to motor-homes or went beyond that?
Don't bother answering that. My life is too short to worry about gas being used in 5A with no smell by the time Kate arrived and seemingly no after effects in two very young children. We would need to get into safe-on-children, non-smelling, readily available gases, which I think is stretching things too far.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 06, 2017, 02:33:08 PM
Caps lock on :
THIS THREAD TITLE SHOULD BE CHANGED. IT IS NOT KNOWN IF MADELEINE WAS REMOVED FROM THE APARTMENT.
IT SHOULD SAY THE NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 06, 2017, 02:42:19 PM
I think one of the rules of any debate is not to falsely and repeatedly accuse your opponent of something they haven't done, in this case"volte face". It would be nice to think that one's opponent in any debate would have the good grace to admit when they were wrong and to apologise but I realise this is out of the question with the likes of you and Faithlilly, so time to move on I guess.
You lost the debate pages ago Alfie.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 03:26:13 PM
If it makes you happy to think that, then by all means you think that.
Anyone who can read and understand and process information logically will I'm sure draw a different conclusion. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 06, 2017, 03:36:20 PM
Quote
British families visiting the Continent are being warned to fit gas detectors to their caravans after a new spate of attacks by gangs piping sleeping gas into their motorhomes. Hayley Kearns, 28, was heading to the Mediterranean with her parents, her brother and his girlfriend when they were attacked at an overnight rest stop on a motorway. Miss Kearns, brother Byron, 20, and his girlfriend Nic James, 31, awoke groggily in their trailer tent to find the window ripped open and valuables gone. They said raiders took £2,000 in cash, their mobile phones, iPads, a Kindle and bank cards. The robbers had also taken their keys and ransacked their car while they slept, littering the service station with their possessions. Related Articles Beware French sleeping gas gang, caravanners told 17 Aug 2007 Al-Hilli neighbours return after bomb scare 10 Sep 2012 Organised gangs prey on foreign drivers 05 Sep 2012 Seige victims' fight continues 10 Aug 2003 Miss Kearns said French police told her East European gangs were preying on holidaymakers. Other British families have reported similar raids this summer, and the Camping and Caravanning Club urged tourists not to sleep at French service stations and to use secure designated campsites for stopovers. Miss Kearns and her family were attacked on August 2 at the Aire de la Bouble on the A71 from Bourges to Clermont-Ferrand. They were travelling in two cars towing a caravan and the trailer tent. The thieves even stole Mr Kearns’ trousers as they searched for his car keys. Miss Kearns’ parents Gill, 55, and Tony, 53, had slept in the caravan and were not robbed. But Miss Kearns believes they were gassed too, because their dog was with them but did not wake up. The customer services agent from Yate, Gloucestershire, added: “Even my parent’s dog didn’t make a noise, and he usually barks at anything. It makes me think they did something to him too.” She said she woke up in the early hours and saw a shadowy figure, but was unable to rouse her brother before she was overcome with sleep. The next morning the family were ‘completely out of it’, she said, adding: “It was a really busy service station with people everywhere. I tried to wake my brother up but I couldn’t and then I don’t remember anything until the morning. “We have to have been knocked out. There was a tiny slit in the trailer tent, just big enough to put a pipe through. The police said we were the second or third group to have been done at that service station and the group were moving slowly south from Paris.” Just weeks earlier on the same motorway, the Chadwick family lost possessions worth £2,000 in a similar raid near Bourges, while Debbie Keeney and Bob John, of Matson, Kent, were targeted at Lancon de Provence, losing cash, jewellery, passports and credit cards. Matthew Collins, manager at Johns Cross Motorcaravan and Camping Centre in East Sussex, said customers were now fitting their caravans with £99 narcotic gas detector and asking about safety measures. “There are definitely more people asking about buying them as a result of the publicity. These detectors sound an alarm if thieves try to pipe ether gas into a caravan. It’s obviously a big concern for families. “We’ve had customers telling us it happened to them in France and Spain. They should avoid overnight stays at motorway service stops and make sure their caravans look well-secured. Robbers tend to go for a caravan which looks like an easy target.” Richard Grimsdale, The Camping and Caravanning Club’s Travel Services Director, said: “Thousands of Club members travel to France every year and we have never had to deal with a gas related criminal issue. France is a motorhome and camping-friendly country that has a network of stopover locations specifically designed for camping units. In most cases they're run by local town councils offering a range of facilities, and are much different to those that line the Autoroute. As a Club, we’d advise that the safest option is to stay at official campsites en route to or returning from camping holidays abroad.The Club offers a network of selected campsites across Europe that can be pre-booked to make travelling safe and easy. “Like in any country, we’d advise people to use their common sense and be observant, take sensible security precautions and not leave valuables on display.” The Royal College of Anaesthetists said in a statement that despite the increasing numbers of reports of people being gassed in motor-homes or commercial trucks in France, and the warning put out by the Foreign Office for travellers to be aware of the danger, the College considered it a myth. "It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether, chloroform or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motor-home without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect on the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a cloth, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray administered directly into a room would be enormous. "The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. Even the more powerful modern volatile agents would need to be delivered in tankerloads of carrier gas by a large compressor. Potential agents, such as the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege are few in number and difficult to obtain. Moreover, these drugs would be too expensive for the average thief to use."
(Telegraph).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 06, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
To see if they are alive? Are you suggesting that Kate McCann did not check that her twins were still alive?
No. She said she checked for some sign of life 'several times' when she 'wandered' into the bedroom. She didn't check for signs of sedation, despite her fears.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 06, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
Quote
KNOCK-OUT GAS ON OVERNIGHT TRAINS train wheel 3
Atul and Smriti Shah experienced it first-hand. “It happened during the night,” they concluded. “The entire compartment was sprayed with some sort of gas that knocked us out. Then our suitcase was slowly extracted from under our seat, the lock twisted loose and, with all the time in the world, the suitcase was looted.”
Atul and Smriti live with their small daughters in Mumbai, India, where railway is the customary way to crisscross the country. For the occasion of a relative’s marriage, the family traveled to the town of Kanpur, in Uttar Pradesh. As tradition dictates, they brought along their finest clothes and jewelry to wear to the many matrimonial celebrations and ceremonies. As a high-caste woman from a wealthy family, now married to a successful businessman, Smriti carried an enviable display of gold and diamonds.
“She had diamonds on her fingers and in her nose and ears,” Atul explained with pride, “and gold bangles and necklaces. Also, she wore the good-luck vermilion mark on her forehead that Indians always wear when traveling away from home.”
After the wedding and family visits, the Shahs boarded the train for the twenty-hour journey home. They had one suitcase, but it was a large one: fifty kilos, Atul estimated. It contained all the family’s finery, including Smriti’s jewelry, and had a small padlock on the zipper tabs. Atul forced the suitcase under Smriti’s seat in the train compartment, where it was tightly lodged. They did not open the suitcase for the duration of the journey.
The Shahs boarded in the evening, had a meal packed by Smriti’s mother, and settled down for the night.
“The strange thing is that none of us woke up during the night,” Smriti told me. “Even the children slept the night through, and they never do.”
She remembers a vague sensation of bitterness in her mouth during the night, then the desire for water. But she remembers too the lethargy she felt, the heaviness of her limbs.
Food- and drink-drugging has long been a problem on trains, but could knockout gas really be in a thief’s arsenal? In my early research, doctors had doubted the likelihood of a thief acquiring the right gas and the victims not waking from the smell. I went back to the doctors and this time they all agreed it could happen. Chloroform is often used in primitive surgical conditions and has no smell at all, some said. An anesthesiologist mentioned Halothane, which would be readily available from any surgical facility or veterinarian. Halothane has a slight odor but not enough to wake an already-sleeping person.
“Within twenty or thirty minutes,” Dr. Jared Kniffen told me, “someone could be in a deep enough sleep so that you could enter the room without his awareness. The danger of this is you could kill someone if too much were used. There’s a second possibility—a gas called Cevoflurane. It’s odorless, but much more difficult to obtain.”
But wouldn’t the robber himself be knocked out? I asked.
“There are ways to avoid that,” Dr. Kniffen said. “A certain travel supply house sells a smoke hood that gives twenty minutes of oxygen.” It’s meant for use in escaping from a burning building, but a clever thief might employ one for another use.
It sounds too sophisticated to me, too troublesome and risky. But if the reward were a treasure chest like Smriti Shah’s, it must be worth one thousand times the risk of simply snagging a laptop from a business traveler.
Despite the Shahs’ conviction, gassing on an overnight train is only a remote risk; my paranoid apprehension on our journey to Prague was out of proportion. Breaking into and stealing from compartments is a real risk though, and so is food- and drink-drugging. Nembitol, scopolamine, and benzodiazepine are the drugs most commonly slipped into food or drink, but only after the thief builds trust and confidence with the mark.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 06, 2017, 03:59:28 PM
No. She said she checked for some sign of life 'several times' when she 'wandered' into the bedroom. She didn't check for signs of sedation, despite her fears.
Having established that the twins were alive and not in mortal danger, she was satisfied that there was no medical emergency.
The imperative, then, became an investigative one.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 06, 2017, 04:00:42 PM
In your opinion. IMO the fact they brought it up with the FLO's on the 5th was because the concerns they mentioned on the 3rd had not resulted in any feedback from the PJ. I also believe the language barrier really worked against them in those first few hours.
I don't believe Kate thought they had been sedated with a potentially lethal drug - neither did any of the other doctors - otherwise they would have taken more drastic action. The fact that the twins were sleeping soundly was normal for them anyway - IOW they were not light sleepers - which could explain why they didn't wake up. That would influence the level of her concern IMO.
Add to that the terrible state of abject terror and anxiety both parents were in - worsening by the minute, then any idea that they should have been thinking calmly and logically - believing as they did that their daughter had just been abducted, is so unrealistic it's off the scale. They would be consumed with fear for their missing daughter. No parent could think straight in those horrendous circumstances. Their heads would be all over the place.
On the other hand there were policemen there who did find it strange that the twins didn't wake up. Those officers were not in a state of shock and anxiety and IMO should have reported their observations to their superiors asap - who may have suggested to the parents that immediate testing was appropriate.
The fact that there were no formal instructions or guidance available to the police on what to do in these circumstances was unfortunate from all points of view IMO. I sincerely hope that state of affairs has since been addressed.
AIMHO
Cite for the 3rd?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 04:16:42 PM
No. She said she checked for some sign of life 'several times' when she 'wandered' into the bedroom. She didn't check for signs of sedation, despite her fears.
You've lost me I'm afraid. How do you check vital signs differently when it's for sedation?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 06, 2017, 04:18:53 PM
And where have you been looking for this evidence? I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them. And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 06, 2017, 05:50:11 PM
And where have you been looking for this evidence? I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them. And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?
There is no "I tried to wake them" anywhere.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 05:56:34 PM
And where have you been looking for this evidence? I guess moving the children from their cots to another apartment, and from cot to lap doesn't constitute any sort of an attempt to rouse them. And because Kate McCann fails to tell us whether or not she tried shaking them awake this tells us....what precisely?
Moving the children a couple of hours after becoming concerned about them can't be described as attempting to rouse them.
Kate McCann placed her hands on their backs to check for chest movement, she says. Fiona Payne reports no shaking.
If she had roused them she would have known if they were sedated or not, and would have had no need to wonder or to spread rumours.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:04:16 PM
Thanks for this. Now we have some evidence that the concept predated May 2007.
Not being a Richard & Judy fan, I personally would not have seen the show. I wonder if it related specifically to motor-homes or went beyond that?
Don't bother answering that. My life is too short to worry about gas being used in 5A with no smell by the time Kate arrived and seemingly no after effects in two very young children. We would need to get into safe-on-children, non-smelling, readily available gases, which I think is stretching things too far.
I know you told me not to answer you but I thought this might be of interest. Before I post it I am not doing so to support the gas theory, I do hope that's understood by all sentient beings who may be reading this.
GAS GANG KO'D US ALL AND LIFTED ME OFF BED TO GET THE WALLET IN MY JEANS EXCLUSIVE: HOLIDAYMAKERS TELL HOW RAIDERS RANSACKED THEIR VILLA
SHARE BYCHARLIE GALL 00:00, 23 AUG 2006 NEWS SHARE Get Daily updates directly to your inbox
Enter your email + Subscribe GAS raid victim Paul Duff told last night how robbers knocked out his family in their holiday villa.
Fish merchant Paul, 34, had his wallet taken from underneath him as he slept in the Spanish villa.
When he came to, he realised he had slept for hours longer than usual and the entire house had been ransacked, with jewellery, money and gadgets missing.
Locals told him they believed his party, from Aberdeen, were the victims of a gang who pumped anaesthetic gas into the villa's air-conditioning system to leave them lpless.
Last night, as police in Mazarron, southern Spain, confirmed they were investigating, Paul described his horror at the raid, which happened as his children, aged six and nine, slept in the villa in the village of Camposol.
He said: "We'd been out for a meal to celebrate my birthday and my sister-in-law Jackie's, which is on the same day
"As the kids are still young, we weren't out late and returned about 10pm.
"Once we got the children to bed, we had another bottle of beer and were all in bed by about 1 1pm.
"The following morning, I was up first. As a fish merchant, I normally start work at about 5.30am.
"I thought it was strange that I'd slept until around 10.15am. I don't think I've slept that long in my entire life. I could see the front door was open and as I got closer to the door I noticed my jeans lying on the doorstep.
"My wallet was on top of them. My cards were inside but all my money was gone.
"When I went to bed, I'd been lying on top of the covers with my legs across my jeans. Whoever broke in must have come into the bedroom and lifted my legs to get my jeans and rifle my wallet.
"When my wife Pauline came through, she was complaining of a stinging headache. Jackie had a sore throat.
"I felt OK but the children were crying.
"We then noticed the villa had been ransacked. My son Hayden's PlayStation and all his games were gone.
"My wife's eternity ring was gone. I'd lost a diamond signet ring and a chain. Our digital cameras were missing and a lot of our spending money."
Paul and Pauline, 33, and kids Hayden, nine, and six-year-old Symone were staying at a friend's villa in Camposol, near the Costa Blanca.
They were joined by Pauline's sister, legal secretary Jackie Humphrey, 32, and her fiance, oil worker Mike Ogston, 34.
The party lost thousands of pounds worth of valuables in the raid.
Their ordeal mirrors an attack on former Arsenal captain Patrick Vieira and his family near Cannes in May.
As word spread of the break-in, Paul's neighbours told them there was no doubt they had been gassed.
He said: "The neighbours told us we'd definitely been victims of some kind of sleeping gas being fed into the air-conditioning."
Jackie, who works for a major legal firm in Aberdeen, said: "I had a dry throat, sore eyes and felt as if I had a hangover. We felt in a bit of a daze all day."
Paul and Mike drove to report the break-in to the Guardia Civil in Puerto de Mazarron, taking an interpreter with them.
Paul said: "We have the paperwork to prove we reported the break-in to the police. But we haven't heard anything since and I'm doubtful if we will.
"People in the local pub told us there was supposed to be a Colombian mob operating in the area.
"Locals suspect they might have been behind the break-in but who knows? It ruined our holiday. For the rest of the fortnight our kids slept in with me at night. "And we didn't put the air-conditioning on again."
Yesterday, a spokeswoman for the Guardia Civil in Puerto de Mazarron confirmed the family's ordeal.
She said: "Investigations into a reported incident on July 11 are continuing."
Using gas in burglaries was dubbed home-jacking when it first surfaced in wealthy areas of the south of France in the 1980s.
But the break-ins were usually done to order - with the targets the keys and paperwork of luxury cars - and the victims were rich locals.
Robbers have also pumped in gas, often colourless nitrous oxide, used by doctors and dentists as an anaesthetic, to knock out victims in camper vans and HGVs parked overnight in motorway service stations in France and Spain.
The victims are unconscious long enough to enable the thieves to breach security systems and ransack the targeted property.
Last night, a British businessman who has been based in Spain for the last 40 years said the latest incident was the first time he had heard of tourists being targeted.
He said: "This just shows how advanced and sophisticated the criminal is becoming.
"The Mazarron area is heavily populated with eastern Europeans who have been responsible for a spate of muggings and robberies on tourists.
"But this is the first time I've heard of gas being used on holidaymakers."
'The kids slept withus for the rest of the tripandwedidn'tput the air-conditioning on'
Moving the children a couple of hours after becoming concerned about them can't be described as attempting to rouse them.
Kate McCann placed her hands on their backs to check for chest movement, she says. Fiona Payne reports no shaking.
If she had roused them she would have known if they were sedated or not, and would have had no need to wonder or to spread rumours.
If they had been roused then that would confirm they had not been sedated? Where does that leave the theory that Madeleine, having been sedated, dragged a chair to the patio railings and fell off?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 06, 2017, 06:08:33 PM
If they had been roused then that would confirm they had not been sedated? Where does that leave the theory that Madeleine, having been sedated, dragged a chair to the patio railings and fell off?
No idea, why?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:21:15 PM
If they had been roused then that would confirm they had not been sedated? Where does that leave the theory that Madeleine, having been sedated, dragged a chair to the patio railings and fell off?
If an attempt had been made to rouse them various responses were possible;
1. Stomach pain, nausea and vomiting 2. Sleepiness leading to unresponsiveness 3. Confusion and deliriousness 4. Excitable hyperactive behaviour 5. Sweating 6. Shaking hands 7. Hallucinations ‒ they may claim to 'hear voices' or 'see things' 8. Unusually slow or fast pulse 9. Unusually small or large pupils
The only symptom was sleepiness. The pulse wasn't checked, nor were the pupils. Kate says they were sound sleepers normally; she seems to have overlooked the fact that they allegedly woke and cried on the two previous nights. We don't know why, but it wouldn't have been because their room was searched, lights were turned on or people were screaming.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 06, 2017, 06:30:24 PM
If an attempt had been made to rouse them various responses were possible;
1. Stomach pain, nausea and vomiting 2. Sleepiness leading to unresponsiveness 3. Confusion and deliriousness 4. Excitable hyperactive behaviour 5. Sweating 6. Shaking hands 7. Hallucinations ‒ they may claim to 'hear voices' or 'see things' 8. Unusually slow or fast pulse 9. Unusually small or large pupils
The only symptom was sleepiness. The pulse wasn't checked, nor were the pupils. Kate says they were sound sleepers normally; she seems to have overlooked the fact that they allegedly woke and cried on the two previous nights. We don't know why, but it wouldn't have been because their room was searched, lights were turned on or people were screaming.
Can I ask how you know this for a fact? I refer you to an earlier comment of mine that some people seem to believe that if it wasn't written down in a police statement or described in a book then it must not have happened. Is that sound logic in your view?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:35:30 PM
And so what conclusions should we draw about Kate McCann who feared sedation in her kids but who (allegedly) did nothing at all about it?
You can conclude what you like. I wonder why she didn't investigate more fully if she truly feared her children could have been in danger of getting worse. It's not like she didn't know what she could do to make sure they were OK, is it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 06, 2017, 06:44:46 PM
Can I ask how you know this for a fact? I refer you to an earlier comment of mine that some people seem to believe that if it wasn't written down in a police statement or described in a book then it must not have happened. Is that sound logic in your view?
Why would people believe something was done if no-one said they did it? If the appropriate checks were carried out Kate wouldn't have needed to fear or speculate she would have known.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:47:29 PM
You can conclude what you like. I wonder why she didn't investigate more fully if she truly feared her children could have been in danger of getting worse. It's not like she didn't know what she could do to make sure they were OK, is it?
You're assuming she did nothing to make sure they were OK - a big assumption. But assuming you're right what do you conclude?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:48:18 PM
Why would people believe something was done if no-one said they did it? If the appropriate checks were carried out Kate wouldn't have needed to fear or speculate she would have known.
Why would people believe nothing was done simply because it wasn't written about somewhere?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 06:52:08 PM
You can conclude what you like. I wonder why she didn't investigate more fully if she truly feared her children could have been in danger of getting worse. It's not like she didn't know what she could do to make sure they were OK, is it?
When did Kate ever say she feared her children were "in danger of getting worse"?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 08:33:36 PM
When did Kate ever say she feared her children were "in danger of getting worse"?
She didn't......ah but just because it isn't written down how can we know she didn't eh eh ! 8(0(*
Some people seem to believe that if it wasn't written down in a police statement or described in a book then it must not have happened. Is that sound logic in your view?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
She didn't......ah but just because it isn't written down how can we know she didn't eh eh ! 8(0(*
Some people seem to believe that if it wasn't written down in a police statement or described in a book then it must not have happened. Is that sound logic in your view?
Fair enough, she may have feared her children were in danger of getting worse and she may have checked their pupils and pulse to ensure they weren"t. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 06, 2017, 08:48:18 PM
Fair enough, she may have feared her children were in danger of getting worse and she may have checked their pupils and pulse to ensure they weren"t. 8(0(*
That's speculation on your part; she and Fiona say she only checked that they were breathing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 06, 2017, 08:56:19 PM
That's speculation on your part; she and Fiona say she only checked that they were breathing.
And it's speculation on your part that she feared for her children's lives but did nothing to ensure they were not in mortal danger.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 06, 2017, 09:12:32 PM
We have some vociferous sceptics on this thread arguing that Kate McCann feared that her children were about to die but who did nothing to ensure they did not. So assuming they are right what does this tell us a) Kate McCann as a mother and b) about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann? Let's start taking this discussion forward from the rut it seems to be in currently.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 06, 2017, 11:25:51 PM
So why in Madeleine, her police interviews and the numerous media interviews she has given since the disappearance has Kate never claimed she thought the twins may have been gassed?
Your repeated repetition of the words 'Kate' and 'gassed' is little short of propaganda (disinformation) .
Are you trying to start, or substantiate, a myth with the intention of hurting The Mccanns again ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 06, 2017, 11:30:21 PM
Your repeated repetition of the words 'Kate' and 'gassed' is little short of propaganda (disinformation) .
Are you trying to start or sudstantiate a myth with the intention of hurting The Mccanns again ?
I rarely answer your posts Sadie but if you look back it is Alfie who brought up the subject of Kate thinking the twins may have been gassed. I made no such claim. I'll take your apology as read.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 07, 2017, 12:09:52 AM
I rarely answer your posts Sadie but if you look back it is Alfie who brought up the subject of Kate thinking the twins may have been gassed. I made no such claim. I'll take your apology as read.
It is you that owes an apology, to Alfie .... for twisting his words repeatedly, into something he did not say.
You also owe Kate Mccann an apology for the same thing.
Trying to develop a myth, are you ? To help Amaral, at The Mccanns expence ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2017, 12:28:06 AM
It is you that owes an apology, to Alfie .... for twisting his words repeatedly, into something he did not say.
You also owe Kate Mccann an apology for the same thing.
Trying to develop a myth, are you ? To help Amaral, at The Mccanns expence ?
This is my last reply to you Sadie so no answer needed. This is what Alfie posted :
'In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years.
Not sure I could twist those words.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2017, 12:56:47 AM
This is my last reply to you Sadie so no answer needed. This is what Alfie posted :
'In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years.
Please refrain from lifting selective quotations from a member's post accompanied by a failure to provide a link to the post for verification. You may not intend to be intentionally duplicitous but in my opinion that is how your posting in such a manner is coming over.
Alfie's full quote is ... In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 07, 2017, 01:36:46 AM
This is my last reply to you Sadie so no answer needed. This is what Alfie posted :
'In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years.
Not sure I could twist those words.
You omitted the important bit which qualified Alfies words ... so altered the meaning. You used this twisted meaning repeatedly, post after post
How about owning up and apologizing, instead of trying to wriggle out of it ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 07:30:48 AM
The McCann's and the police should have insisted the children were checked and blood samples taken for analysis.
There are no excuses for why it wan't done, by either party.
As Doctors, the McCann's would know how important this was to do. So WHY DIDN'T THEY INSIST IT WAS DONE ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2017, 08:12:44 AM
You omitted the important bit which qualified Alfies words ... so altered the meaning. You used this twisted meaning repeatedly, post after post
How about owning up and apologizing, instead of trying to wriggle out of it ?
So did Alfie say it or not?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 09:33:22 AM
One of the children had disappeared. The others seemed to be sleeping unnaturally deeply. She was scared for them too. What a nightmare! One gone and the others sleeping so deeply that their mother feared they had been sedated.
If they had been sedated by criminals no care would have been taken to make sure the sedative was suitable for children of their ages. No care would have been taken to make sure the correct dose was administered. The children's condition could have worsened dangerously at any moment.
Paediatric sedation is very closely controlled because each child responds differently. During sedation doctors are advised to;
Maintain continuous oxygen saturation and heart rate monitoring Record vital signs and blood pressure every 15 minutes for conscious sedation and every 5 minutes for deep sedation Record drug dose and time administered Record state of consciousness and response to stimulation
After the completion of the procedure, keep recording vital signs until the patient responds appropriately to a voice or gentle stimulation.
it is prudent to expect the worst and to have suction and airway equipment at the bedside and ready to use if necessary. Equipment should include an appropriately sized positive-pressure oxygen delivery system, suction apparatus, and suction catheters (eg, tonsil, Yankauer). Age-appropriate equipment for measuring blood pressure and oxygen saturation should be available, and continuous oxygen saturation monitoring is recommended. A crash cart with age-appropriate drugs and equipment should be readily available. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/804045-overview#a11
Unlike a layperson the people with the children should have been aware of all the possible complications when sedating children. They should have known the importance of having the correct monitoring equipment and the frequency with which it should have been carried out. They should have known how important it is to have resuscitation equipment available.
Given all the above, wandering in several times and feeling at the children's backs seems woefully inadequate and extremely dangerous. Sedated children need much more than that. At the very least they should have gone to hospital overnight where all the equipment needed for observation and monitoring was available. .
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 07, 2017, 09:36:31 AM
According to Kate she and David Payne spoke to the 2 GNR officers who arrived first (around 11.00p.m.) - and she expressed her concern to them regarding sedation.
Page 99 of her book refers.
Quote
We tried to explain what had happened. David reiterated his concerns about roadblocks and border notification and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. End quote
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 09:49:50 AM
According to Kate she and David Payne spoke to the 2 GNR officers who arrived first (around 11.00p.m.) - and she expressed her concern to them regarding sedation.
Page 99 of her book refers.
Quote
We tried to explain what had happened. David reiterated his concerns about roadblocks and border notification and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. End quote
What Kate's number one priority should have been was to get her children to a place where the right equipment was available in case their condition worsened.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 10:32:23 AM
What Kate's number one priority should have been was to get her children to a place where the right equipment was available in case their condition worsened.
Kate and Fiona, possibly some of the other doctors in their party judged that the twins were in no immediate danger of death. Their judgement was absolutely spot on as the twins were fine the next day. Kate McCann is (unless you know otherwise and can provide evidence to support your claim) a loving and caring mother who would not deliberately allow her children to die in her arms no matter what spurious reason you can dream up for thinking that she might.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2017, 10:46:09 AM
Please refrain from lifting selective quotations from a member's post accompanied by a failure to provide a link to the post for verification. You may not intend to be intentionally duplicitous but in my opinion that is how your posting in such a manner is coming over.
Alfie's full quote is ... In my opinion (conjecture here, remember I am not the McCanns so this could be completely wrong, and don't start ascribing my thoughts to them) the McCanns may have thought that their children had been gassed as stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed on the continent have been doing the rounds for many years. Before you all jump down my throat I know these stories are considered by many to be a load of hogwash but it still doesn't take away from the fact that such occurrences have been widely reported in the media. So it is possible that this was a thought going through Kate's panicked mind at the time. Personally I think it's an unlikely scenario, and I also think it's unlikely the children were sedated. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
I was merely pointing out that it was Alfie who raised the subject so only part of the post was required. I did not say what his thinking on the subject was so highlighting the last sentence was unnecessary.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2017, 10:58:44 AM
Kate and Fiona, possibly some of the other doctors in their party judged that the twins were in no immediate danger of death. Their judgement was absolutely spot on as the twins were fine the next day. Kate McCann is (unless you know otherwise and can provide evidence to support your claim) a loving and caring mother who would not deliberately allow her children to die in her arms no matter what spurious reason you can dream up for thinking that she might.
Tell me Alfie if you presented yourself at A&E with an unresponsive child who you believed had been given an unknown drug what would you expect the doctors to do a) give the child a bit of a cuddle after feeling the child's back or b) immediately ascertain through blood tests what had been given and then carry out further tests to ascertain and control the damage that may have been done?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 07, 2017, 11:05:34 AM
What Kate's number one priority should have been was to get her children to a place where the right equipment was available in case their condition worsened.
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.
IMO your 'expectations' of how Kate should have behaved at the worst time of her life are completely OTT as they take no account whatsoever of her state of mind - having suddenly been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare - without warning.
I do not understand how anyone with children themselves would expect any parent to be thinking coherently, rationally or logically at a time of such panic-stricken terror and pain - but would actually expect them to behave almost as if nothing of major importance had just happened.
It wasn't the family hamster who had disappeared it was their beloved daughter. Their whole world was crashing down around them. Don't you see that? Anyone who thinks that should not have impaired their thinking and that they should have been able to prioritise and make calm, reasoned decisions during that time - can only be completely devoid of the ability to empathise in my opinion. I can't think of any other reason.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.
IMO your 'expectations' of how Kate should have behaved at the worst time of her life are completely OTT as they take no account whatsoever of her state of mind - having suddenly been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare - without warning.
I do not understand how anyone with children themselves would expect any parent to be thinking coherently, rationally or logically at a time of such panic-stricken terror and pain - but would actually expect them to behave almost as if nothing of major importance had just happened.
It wasn't the family hamster who had disappeared it was their beloved daughter. Their whole world was crashing down around them. Don't you see that? Anyone who thinks that should not have impaired their thinking and that they should have been able to prioritise and make calm, reasoned decisions during that time - can only be completely devoid of the ability to empathise in my opinion. I can't think of any other reason.
No need for hindsight.
There never was.
The children should have been tested.
One has to wonder why the Mccann's didn't insist on it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 07, 2017, 11:13:39 AM
What was the purpose of this cuddling? Kate had been quite happy to leave them physically unattended for hours before that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2017, 11:15:14 AM
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.
IMO your 'expectations' of how Kate should have behaved at the worst time of her life are completely OTT as they take no account whatsoever of her state of mind - having suddenly been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare - without warning.
I do not understand how anyone with children themselves would expect any parent to be thinking coherently, rationally or logically at a time of such panic-stricken terror and pain - but would actually expect them to behave almost as if nothing of major importance had just happened.
It wasn't the family hamster who had disappeared it was their beloved daughter. Their whole world was crashing down around them. Don't you see that? Anyone who thinks that should not have impaired their thinking and that they should have been able to prioritise and make calm, reasoned decisions during that time - can only be completely devoid of the ability to empathise in my opinion. I can't think of any other reason.
Except she says she was clearheaded enough to raise her concerns. Unfortunately there is absolutely no record of it, not from the police officers she said she raised her concerns to, not her friend who was with her most of that night, not the translator who would have to have translated those concerns to the non-English speaking police officers, not even Gerry who contradicts his own wife's account.
So it's not that Kate was so stressed she wasn't thinking rationally. The rub is that she claims she was but no one was listening but for that there is just no evidence.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 11:17:26 AM
One has to wonder why the Mccann's didn't insist on it.
Think of the other things the McCanns wanted and insisted on? Openness, borders controlled and road blocks. There is proof they had suggested looking for evidence for the use of sedatives on the 5th May 2007. How that concern for drug testing was transmitted to the PJ investigation was not made clear.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 11:59:25 AM
Tell me Alfie if you presented yourself at A&E with an unresponsive child who you believed had been given an unknown drug what would you expect the doctors to do a) give the child a bit of a cuddle after feeling the child's back or b) immediately ascertain through blood tests what had been given and then carry out further tests to ascertain and control the damage that may have been done?
I have no idea, having never been in that situation but I would think the first step of any doctor would be to use their eyes, ears and touch to assess the patient before immediately sticking needles in it.
Now you tell me - do you think Kate McCann was quite prepared to let her kids die that night?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 07, 2017, 12:16:38 PM
Except she says she was clearheaded enough to raise her concerns. Unfortunately there is absolutely no record of it, not from the police officers she said she raised her concerns to, not her friend who was with her most of that night, not the translator who would have to have translated those concerns to the non-English speaking police officers, not even Gerry who contradicts his own wife's account.
So it's not that Kate was so stressed she wasn't thinking rationally. The rub is that she claims she was but no one was listening but for that there is just no evidence.
From Kate's book it would seem that Silvia (Batista?) was helping to translate when Kate and David Payne were talking to the 2 GNR officers. So altogether that makes 4 people she was translating for just at that one time. I don't know how many other people she helped with translation during those hours but I would certainly not expect her to remember every word of every conversation she had with various people that night. If a group of people were all talking together then IMO it would be impossible for her to keep a perfect record of it all in her head - people tend to talk over one another.
Kate doesn't say what response was made by the GNR officers to her concerns Speculation - I know - but it could be that before they could respond David Payne began talking to them and the subject changed to roadblocks etc. Who knows?
IMO its unrealistic to believe that the only conversations which took place between the various parties that night are those recorded in the files and that if it's not in the files it didn't happen.
It's also unrealistic IMO to believe that summarised versions of statements cover every word the witness said during interview.
Once again - that is why I think it's a mistake to treat witness statements (unless they are verbatim) as if they are completely accurate summaries which leave nothing out. They clearly are not.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.
IMO your 'expectations' of how Kate should have behaved at the worst time of her life are completely OTT as they take no account whatsoever of her state of mind - having suddenly been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare - without warning.
I do not understand how anyone with children themselves would expect any parent to be thinking coherently, rationally or logically at a time of such panic-stricken terror and pain - but would actually expect them to behave almost as if nothing of major importance had just happened.
It wasn't the family hamster who had disappeared it was their beloved daughter. Their whole world was crashing down around them. Don't you see that? Anyone who thinks that should not have impaired their thinking and that they should have been able to prioritise and make calm, reasoned decisions during that time - can only be completely devoid of the ability to empathise in my opinion. I can't think of any other reason.
I haven't suggested that anyone should have made calm reasoned decisions. I would expect the mother to panic more than someone with no knowledge of the dangers of sedation. Not only had she lost her beloved eldest daughter, she feared her other two children were in danger. I would expect overreaction with hysterical screams for all possible care of her remaining children to make sure they were OK. She reports no panic at this further blow and no sense of urgency.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 12:23:07 PM
I haven't suggested that anyone should have made calm reasoned decisions. I would expect the mother to panic more than someone with no knowledge of the dangers of sedation. Not only had she lost her beloved eldest daughter, she feared her other two children were in danger. I would expect overreaction with hysterical screams for all possible care of her remaining children to make sure they were OK. She reports no panic at this further blow and no sense of urgency.
dangers of sedation....
would you like to tell us about them and how many serious incidents there have been
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 12:30:58 PM
From Kate's book it would seem that Silvia (Batista?) was helping to translate when Kate and David Payne were talking to the 2 GNR officers. So altogether that makes 4 people she was translating for just at that one time. I don't know how many other people she helped with translation during those hours but I would certainly not expect her to remember every word of every conversation she had with various people that night. If a group of people were all talking together then IMO it would be impossible for her to keep a perfect record of it all in her head - people tend to talk over one another.
Kate doesn't say what response was made by the GNR officers to her concerns Speculation - I know - but it could be that before they could respond David Payne began talking to them and the subject changed to roadblocks etc. Who knows?
IMO its unrealistic to believe that the only conversations which took place between the various parties that night are those recorded in the files and that if it's not in the files it didn't happen.
It's also unrealistic IMO to believe that summarised versions of statements cover every word the witness said during interview.
Once again - that is why I think it's a mistake to treat witness statements (unless they are verbatim) as if they are completely accurate summaries which leave nothing out. They clearly are not.
AIMHO
So Silvia perhaps didn't hear it, you think? Or she, a mother, heard it but didn't bother translating it? She didn't react at all? Despite the lack of reaction from Silvia and the GNR Kate didn't repeat it and make sure they got this vital information? She didn't even try again with the PJ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
So Silvia perhaps didn't hear it, you think? Or she, a mother, heard it but didn't bother translating it? She didn't react at all? Despite the lack of reaction from Silvia and the GNR Kate didn't repeat it and make sure they got this vital information? She didn't even try again with the PJ?
I don't know - I wasn't there, but I am able to understand that panicked people would not be acting or talking in the calm coherent way they would usually be, if they were just having a normal conversation. There were 5 people trying to communicate in that group - when Kate expressed her concern.
I think it's unfair to expect Silvia - who AFAIK was not a trained interpreter to remember every conversation she helped to translate that night for so many different people - or even to remember everything that she simply overheard - especially if people were talking in groups - and then expect her to be able to repeat it all back purely from memory days later.
(Sorry must go out now)
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 01:35:46 PM
I don't know - I wasn't there, but I am able to understand that panicked people would not be acting or talking in the calm coherent way they would usually be, if they were just having a normal conversation. There were 5 people trying to communicate in that group - when Kate expressed her concern.
I think it's unfair to expect Silvia - who AFAIK was not a trained interpreter to remember every conversation she helped to translate that night for so many different people - or even to remember everything that she simply overheard - especially if people were talking in groups - and then expect her to be able to repeat it all back purely from memory days later.
(Sorry must go out now)
I think suggesting that the two remaining children may have been sedated would have registered because it would have been very alarming.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 03:28:39 PM
Kate checked that the twins breathing Rate Depth Was normal and decided they were in no danger
Please provide your cite showing that the children's breathing rate and depth was checked. Please provide your cite showing that the mother decided her children were in no danger. Please provide your cites showing the recommended action in cases of suspected sedation of a child.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 07, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
Please provide your cite showing that the children's breathing rate and depth was checked. Please provide your cite showing that the mother decided her children were in no danger. Please provide your cites showing the recommended action in cases of suspected sedation of a child.
There were 2 qualified doctors in attendance. I'm sure if you were in the same position, the clinical judgement of 2 trained UK doctors would be of greater reassurance to you than that of a pair of foreign paramedics.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 05:32:21 PM
There were 2 qualified doctors in attendance. I'm sure if you were in the same position, the clinical judgement of 2 trained UK doctors would be of greater reassurance to you than that of a pair of foreign paramedics.
So these two doctors were able to determine by looking, if there were traces of foreign substances in their children's bloodstreams.
Now that is magic. 8)--))
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Please provide your cite showing that the children's breathing rate and depth was checked. Please provide your cite showing that the mother decided her children were in no danger. Please provide your cites showing the recommended action in cases of suspected sedation of a child.
Kate put her hand on their backs and would have ... due to her training instinctively been aware of rate dapth and quality of breathing The fact she took no action confirms none was necessary Suspected sedation of a child Main danger of OVER sedation is respiratory depression so check quality of breathing Colour of lips But Kate talks of sedation not over sedation so the recommended treatment is let them sleep it off Sedation doesn't require treatment it is self limiting
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 05:42:55 PM
There were 2 qualified doctors in attendance. I'm sure if you were in the same position, the clinical judgement of 2 trained UK doctors would be of greater reassurance to you than that of a pair of foreign paramedics.
Really? Fiona Payne didn't mention assessing the state of the children. Neither UK doctor had the tools needed to monitor the children. Neither doctor knew what might have been administered or what danger it could have posed. Any opinion they offered was based on insufficient information.
The foreign doctors (not paramedics) had the right tools. They had access to blood samples. They had resuscitation equipment.
I would have chosen the foreign doctors without the slightest hesitation..
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 05:48:25 PM
From Fiona Payne's Rogtory
she (Kate) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.
So, Fiona Payne was fully aware of the situation and yet she did not suggest that the twins needed urgent medical help. Nor did the person asking the rogatory questions think to ask why medical assistance was not sought. Why not on both counts?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 07, 2017, 05:49:30 PM
Really? Fiona Payne didn't mention assessing the state of the children. Neither UK doctor had the tools needed to monitor the children. Neither doctor knew what might have been administered or what danger it could have posed. Any opinion they offered was based on insufficient information.
The foreign doctors (not paramedics) had the right tools. They had access to blood samples. They had resuscitation equipment.
I would have chosen the foreign doctors without the slightest hesitation..
Do you actually think they could have got instant toxicology tests & results immediately upon arrival at Lagos hospital - based on a suspicion?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 05:50:22 PM
Really? Fiona Payne didn't mention assessing the state of the children. Neither UK doctor had the tools needed to monitor the children. Neither doctor knew what might have been administered or what danger it could have posed. Any opinion they offered was based on insufficient information.
The foreign doctors (not paramedics) had the right tools. They had access to blood samples. They had resuscitation equipment.
I would have chosen the foreign doctors without the slightest hesitation..
Using tools to monitor Sedation is a relatively new practice introduced in our over the top health and safety combined with no win no fee lawyers Previously sedation was monitored using no tools Is it any safer I doubt it
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 05:50:43 PM
Really? Fiona Payne didn't mention assessing the state of the children. Neither UK doctor had the tools needed to monitor the children. Neither doctor knew what might have been administered or what danger it could have posed. Any opinion they offered was based on insufficient information.
The foreign doctors (not paramedics) had the right tools. They had access to blood samples. They had resuscitation equipment.
I would have chosen the foreign doctors without the slightest hesitation..
Steady on!! You're starting to sound like you believe the twins were sedated by a stranger!!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 05:52:05 PM
The only value in any test would be in helping solve the case For health reasons no tests were necessary
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 05:54:33 PM
So who here thinks Fiona Payne should be accused of medical malpractice, or worse?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 05:57:44 PM
The only value in any test would be in helping solve the case For health reasons no tests were necessary
Wouldn't the use of sedatives still point the finger back to the doctors, for who has better access to sedatives than trained anaesthetists?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 06:03:23 PM
If I was a doctor who had sedated my beloved children and one of them died as a result and the other two were in a coma, and having already aroused the attention of the police, I would have a choice - come clean and save the lives of my two remaining children, and suffer the consequences later, or do nothing, watch my other two children die or get very sick and suffer the inevitable consequences of my actions. It's a no brainer really isnt it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 06:05:23 PM
Kate put her hand on their backs and would have ... due to her training instinctively been aware of rate dapth and quality of breathing The fact she took no action confirms none was necessary Suspected sedation of a child Main danger of OVER sedation is respiratory depression so check quality of breathing Colour of lips But Kate talks of sedation not over sedation so the recommended treatment is let them sleep it off Sedation doesn't require treatment it is self limiting
Still no cites for your pronouncements I see, despite your acknowledgement that they are required.
Please provide a cite showing that doctors can 'instinctively' assess breathing rates and depths. Please provide a cite showing that sedation doesn't deepen after examination. Please provide a cite showing that the recommended treatment for sedation by an unqualified person of an unknown substance or dose is to let the patient 'sleep it off'.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 06:10:14 PM
Still no cites for your pronouncements I see, despite your acknowledgement that they are required.
Please provide a cite showing that doctors can 'instinctively' assess breathing rates and depths. Please provide a cite showing that sedation doesn't deepen after examination. Please provide a cite showing that the recommended treatment for sedation by an unqualified person of an unknown substance or dose is to let the patient 'sleep it off'.
You may well have a long, long wait for that.........
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 06:12:07 PM
Still no cites for your pronouncements I see, despite your acknowledgement that they are required.
Please provide a cite showing that doctors can 'instinctively' assess breathing rates and depths. Please provide a cite showing that sedation doesn't deepen after examination. Please provide a cite showing that the recommended treatment for sedation by an unqualified person of an unknown substance or dose is to let the patient 'sleep it off'.
Please provide some common sense to the discussion. Kate and Fiona Payne are qualified medical practitioners. They can tell when someone is in urgent need of medical attention, or do you dispute this?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 06:12:31 PM
Still no cites for your pronouncements I see, despite your acknowledgement that they are required.
Please provide a cite showing that doctors can 'instinctively' assess breathing rates and depths. Please provide a cite showing that sedation doesn't deepen after examination. Please provide a cite showing that the recommended treatment for sedation by an unqualified person of an unknown substance or dose is to let the patient 'sleep it off'.
The cite is from an expert who has been administering sedation for 40 yrs I'm not in the slightest bothered if you don't accept it It is of no importance to anyone what you believe
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 06:13:52 PM
I daresay Fiona Payne should be trussed in chains and hurled into the deepest dungeon ..,
But it seems we only have the knives out for Kate McCann on this issue, never mind that Fiona Payne was arguably in a better, more clear headed position to know whether or not the children were in mortal danger that night.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 06:17:09 PM
Do you actually think they could have got instant toxicology tests & results immediately upon arrival at Lagos hospital - based on a suspicion?
I never said they could, you did. I expect their first reaction would have been to check the children's level of responsiveness. That is, after all, the first reaction of any first-aider, paramedic or doctor. I find it amazing that it wasn't checked by the well qualified UK doctors.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 06:17:45 PM
Let's have some cites from independent and verifiable sources, as regards what G-Unit has requested.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 06:20:07 PM
I never said they could, you did. I expect their first reaction would have been to check the children's level of responsiveness. That is, after all, the first reaction of any first-aider, paramedic or doctor. I find it amazing that it wasn't checked by the well qualified UK doctors.
So talk us through exactly, minute by minute, everything that Kate did vis-a-vis the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 06:22:40 PM
Please provide some common sense to the discussion. Kate and Fiona Payne are qualified medical practitioners. They can tell when someone is in urgent need of medical attention, or do you dispute this?
By instinct? I would hope doctors would be more precise. Thankfully I haven't encountered one of these doctors who, according to davel, use instinct to make diagnoses. I would definitely have asked for a second opinion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 06:29:09 PM
The cite is from an expert who has been administering sedation for 40 yrs I'm not in the slightest bothered if you don't accept it It is of no importance to anyone what you believe
You can post anything you like, but if you can't provide supporting evidence it means nothing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 06:29:16 PM
By instinct? I would hope doctors would be more precise. Thankfully I haven't encountered one of these doctors who, according to davel, use instinct to make diagnoses. I would definitely have asked for a second opinion.
So you'd accuse Fiona Payne of medical malpractice then?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 06:29:30 PM
Still waiting for cites to be provided, as G-United requested, and quite rightly.
I and others provide cites, but it seems that some who request that of others are totally incapable of doing it themselves.
From that inevitable conclusions will be drawn.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
You can post anything you like, but if you can't provide supporting evidence it means nothing.
Precisely G-Unit.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 06:39:54 PM
As a brief reminder, as it seems to be needed.
You cannot determine by touch or by measuring the pulse, if someone has drugs or any sedative in their bloodstream, let alone the concentration of a given substance or substances.
The presence of some substances can be detected externally, if they have an odour significantly strong enough to be detected by the human nose. Likewise, that is qualitative, not quantitative.
Anyone who claims they can detect substances in a bloodstream by touch or the equivalent, should see a Doctor. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 06:42:21 PM
By instinct? I would hope doctors would be more precise. Thankfully I haven't encountered one of these doctors who, according to davel, use instinct to make diagnoses. I would definitely have asked for a second opinion.
the diagnosis is made on the assessment on the chest movements which are instinctively assesed by the trained hand Is that simple enough for you Experienced doctors react instinctively
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 06:44:58 PM
It would seem that we have some witch-doctors on here.
That is quite sad.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 06:45:38 PM
You cannot determine by touch or by measuring the pulse, if someone has drugs or any sedative in their bloodstream, let alone the concentration of a given substance or substances.
The presence of some substances can be detected externally, if they have an odour significantly strong enough to be detected by the human nose.
Anyone who claims they can should see a Doctor. 8**8:/:
You can assess by asssessing chest movements and looking at the colour of lips if a patient is on any sort of danger from the administration of a sedative drug
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 06:52:04 PM
So you'd accuse Fiona Payne of medical malpractice then?
Fiona was not responsible for the well-being of the children and could only diagnose and treat them with parental permission. There's no evidence that she offered or was asked to treat them, so she did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 06:52:21 PM
Fiona was not responsible for the well-being of the children and could only diagnose and treat them with parental permission. There's no evidence that she offered or was asked to treat them, so she did nothing wrong.
So, despite the fact that she was a doctor who was charged that night with keeping an eye on these children the fact that she did not suggest they be rushed to hospital straight away is perfectly reasonable as far as you're concerned is it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 07:03:06 PM
As to the laying on of hands, to determine what has been the effect of drugs or sedatives on a person, that is pure and utter B.S.
Some people need to get real.
As I have explained 20 yrs ago there was no monitoring for sedation .... The new guidelines are part of the modern day obsession with health and safety and have achieved nothing
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 07:04:33 PM
You really are in dreamland, if you seriously believe touching someone can determine drug or sedative concentration, merely by touch.
Not just by touch - OK. That is what we would do - we'd know the signs of the effects of the preanaesthetic medications and when the patient looked right we'd give them the anaesthetic. And after that all the monitoring was done by checking for depth of anaesthesia all done by feeling and observing reactions of various reflexes, plus taking breathing and heart rates.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:09:26 PM
What debate? Many of my posts are supported by independent cites. Many of the posters who have disagreed with me have not provided any cites. If no cites can be provided my points can't be said to have been refuted.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 07:10:39 PM
Not just by touch - OK. That is what we would do - we'd know the signs of the effects of the preanaesthetic medications and when the patient looked right we'd give them the anaesthetic. And after that all the monitoring was done by checking for depth of anaesthesia all done by feeling and observing reactions of various reflexes, plus taking breathing and heart rates.
This wasn't done Rob, was it.
All hypothetical.
Now according to Kate McCann's book she wanted the children checked.
Yet there is no record of this request, by her, her husband or the Police.
Personally, I would say the claim in the book was made up, to cover them, but we will never know the answer to that one, bar a confession.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
So, despite the fact that she was a doctor who was charged that night with keeping an eye on these children the fact that she did not suggest they be rushed to hospital straight away is perfectly reasonable as far as you're concerned is it?
Please provide a cite.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 07:13:27 PM
Fiona was not responsible for the well-being of the children and could only diagnose and treat them with parental permission. There's no evidence that she offered or was asked to treat them, so she did nothing wrong.
Would English doctors be allowed to treat patients in foreign lands?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:13:54 PM
As I have explained 20 yrs ago there was no monitoring for sedation .... The new guidelines are part of the modern day obsession with health and safety and have achieved nothing
Cites please.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 07:14:18 PM
I was traveling back home a couple of days ago when my son was unwell I felt his forehead and realised he had a temperature and gave him Paracetamol In hospital that would have not been acceptable Paracetamol could only be given if the temp was checked with a thermometer Hospital guidelines are not applicable in the real world
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 07:15:01 PM
Not just by touch - OK. That is what we would do - we'd know the signs of the effects of the preanaesthetic medications and when the patient looked right we'd give them the anaesthetic. And after that all the monitoring was done by checking for depth of anaesthesia all done by feeling and observing reactions of various reflexes, plus taking breathing and heart rates.
Cites please.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 07, 2017, 07:19:18 PM
You're getting boring now. "We couldn't look after ourselves, let alone the twins. So the staff put two extra cots in Fiona and David's apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 07:21:40 PM
Anti histamines have sedative actions So do children taking these drugs need to be monitored
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:27:00 PM
What else was she doing in the McCann's apartment? Looking after Kate and the twins.
I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Concerned to support Kate. No mention of the children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 07:30:39 PM
Thanks. I'm always confused about where they go, for some say to the Payne's apartment and others say the extra cots were taken through to apartment 4G which is in the next apartment block along. Maybe there were two moves first to the Paynes and then to their own new apartment.
I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Concerned to support Kate. No mention of the children.
If you look after the mother for she is in no fit state you are indirectly taking over the responsibilities of the mother as well i.e. looking after the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 07:32:03 PM
It seems to have been forgotten by some, that this situation was atypical.
A child had disappeared, and the two other children were unresponsive.
The logical and correct course of action, would have been to have the children checked out in a hospital, and samples of blood to be taken in the first instance for analysis.
That it wasn't done, or even insisted on,tends to indicate something untoward had taken place.
The question is what.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 07:39:10 PM
A statement of fact becomes its own cite. Like we can get Fiona's statement where she looks after Kate, but we can't drill down further and find where Fiona shows us documentary proof that she looked after Kate.
Her statement becomes the cited fact (later it will be judged right or wrong).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 07:40:38 PM
It seems to have been forgotten by some, that this situation was atypical.
A child had disappeared, and the two other children were unresponsive.
The logical and correct course of action, would have been to have the children checked out in a hospital, and samples of blood to be taken in the first instance for analysis.
That it wasn't done, or even insisted on,tends to indicate something untoward had taken place.
The question is what.
No it doesn't You are simply stating your opinion as fact
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:42:14 PM
You're getting boring now. "We couldn't look after ourselves, let alone the twins. So the staff put two extra cots in Fiona and David's apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room".
Kate wasn't able to care for herself, let alone her children, she says. Those convinced that her diagnosis and monitoring of her children was satisfactory may need to accept that their faith in her is misplaced imo.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:45:30 PM
Thanks. I'm always confused about where they go, for some say to the Payne's apartment and others say the extra cots were taken through to apartment 4G which is in the next apartment block along. Maybe there were two moves first to the Paynes and then to their own new apartment. If you look after the mother for she is in no fit state you are indirectly taking over the responsibilities of the mother as well i.e. looking after the twins.
Make your mind up. Kate was either in a fit state of she wasn't. If she wasn't her diagnosis and monitoring of the children was likely to be unsatisfactory.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 07:49:51 PM
A statement of fact becomes its own cite. Like we can get Fiona's statement where she looks after Kate, but we can't drill down further and find where Fiona shows us documentary proof that she looked after Kate.
Her statement becomes the cited fact (later it will be judged right or wrong).
Cites are cites. They can be quoted and referenced. Suggesting that a cite doesn't exist but you might find something to support your opinion later doesn't fit the bill at all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2017, 07:55:57 PM
Cites are cites. They can be quoted and referenced. Suggesting that a cite doesn't exist but you might find something to support your opinion later doesn't fit the bill at all.
I'm actually 100% with you on this and fully support the idea I will quote you when I ask Angelo for his cite that correia gave an interview in English and askstephen for a cite that correia admitted to interfering with witness Cites are a really good idea and should be rigidly enforced
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 08:00:25 PM
It seems to have been forgotten by some, that this situation was atypical.
A child had disappeared, and the two other children were unresponsive.
The logical and correct course of action, would have been to have the children checked out in a hospital, and samples of blood to be taken in the first instance for analysis.
That it wasn't done, or even insisted on,tends to indicate something untoward had taken place.
The question is what.
If you accept the testimony that Kate and Gerry brought up the idea of sedative use as part of the modus operandi on the 5th with the British Liaison team, what more did they need to do?
Did the Liaison team not immediately consult with the PJ about these concerns? Maybe a question about this needs to be asked in Parliament?
Make your mind up. Kate was either in a fit state or she wasn't. If she wasn't her diagnosis and monitoring of the children was likely to be unsatisfactory.
Was a psychiatrist brought in to do that assessment? Kate might have felt OK, but Fiona thought she was unfit (opinions). I don't need to make up my mind on this, all I can do is report what we are told.
Cites are cites. They can be quoted and referenced. Suggesting that a cite doesn't exist but you might find something to support your opinion later doesn't fit the bill at all.
I think I agree with that. But taking the previous post as an example you can't provide cites where it proves Fiona found Kate unfit to look after herself and the kids in her care. You just take Fiona's word for that but there is still a possibility her statement may not be factual.
If you accept the testimony that Kate and Gerry brought up the idea of sedative use as part of the modus operandi on the 5th with the British Liaison team, what more did they need to do?
The asked the FLO if the was any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine. Not quite the same.
[/quote]You then go through the differential diagnoses e.g. to tell if they were drinking - smell their breath. [/quote]
So not just by looking?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 08:11:23 PM
I'm actually 100% with you on this and fully support the idea I will quote you when I ask Angelo for his cite that correia gave an interview in English and askstephen for a cite that correia admitted to interfering with witness Cites are a really good idea and should be rigidly enforced
You seem to believe it applies to everyone except you. I don't think it works like that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 07, 2017, 08:14:43 PM
The asked the FLO if the was any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine. Not quite the same.
You then go through the differential diagnoses e.g. to tell if they were drinking - smell their breath.
So not just by looking?
Absolutely use all your senses, but humans have become very reliant on sight. In the Masterchef competition when the contestants were allowed to use their other senses Touch, smell, hear, (but not taste or sight (blind folded)) many were unable to identify the food item handed to them.
"The asked the FLO if there was any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine." That was how it was reported 1 year after the event, but one would imagine Kate and Gerry said more than that at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2017, 08:24:11 PM
Absolutely use all your senses, but humans have become very reliant on sight. In the Masterchef competition when the contestants were allowed to use their other senses Touch, smell, hear, (but not taste or sight (blind folded)) many were unable to identify the food item handed to them.
"The asked the FLO if there was any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine." That was how it was reported 1 year after the event, but one would imagine Kate and Gerry said more than that at the time.
Why?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2017, 08:25:57 PM
Of course if someone asked if there was any evidence of drug use the liaison Police would ask "Why do you think so?".
If you really think that that one sentence ("was there any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine?") was all that was said on the matter, so be it. At least the topic was raised. It would be most unreasonable to think the McCanns would raise such a question in front of about 5 liaison officers and there would not be some other discussion around the point. No doubt these liaison officers could be re-interviewed regarding this matter.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 07, 2017, 08:40:20 PM
I can only wonder why the Portuguese officers who witnessed the McCanns "praying like Arabs" didn't summon immediate medical assistance for the apparent state of mind. Had they done so, the twins could have been assessed at the same time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 07, 2017, 08:44:22 PM
I can only wonder why the Portuguese officers who witnessed the McCanns "praying like Arabs" didn't summon immediate medical assistance for the apparent state of mind. Had they done so, the twins could have been assessed at the same time.
They should have been.
It was a major omission by the PJ, as it was by the parents, who are of course, self proclaimed experts.
As to the Mccann's prostrating themselves, do they have a history of this kind of behaviour ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 08:51:08 PM
I can only wonder why the Portuguese officers who witnessed the McCanns "praying like Arabs" didn't summon immediate medical assistance for the apparent state of mind. Had they done so, the twins could have been assessed at the same time.
It always hit me as a bit of religious or even racial discrimination to have used the words "praying like Arabs".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2017, 08:53:01 PM
Absolutely use all your senses, but humans have become very reliant on sight. In the Masterchef competition when the contestants were allowed to use their other senses Touch, smell, hear, (but not taste or sight (blind folded)) many were unable to identify the food item handed to them.
"The asked the FLO if there was any evidence that a sedative has been used to remove Madeleine." That was how it was reported 1 year after the event, but one would imagine Kate and Gerry said more than that at the time.
On wonders what form that evidence would have taken.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2017, 09:39:27 PM
On wonders what form that evidence would have taken.
It seems the PJ used the human olfactory system in the same manner as they used the dogs - ie, no forensic testing of the bed-linen, just acceptance of what they were told.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 07, 2017, 09:49:14 PM
I can only wonder why the Portuguese officers who witnessed the McCanns "praying like Arabs" didn't summon immediate medical assistance for the apparent state of mind. Had they done so, the twins could have been assessed at the same time.
Presumably because the Iberian peninsula had considerable Moorish influence in it's history so praying in that manner would not have been considered at all abnormal ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 10:24:25 PM
Presumably because the Iberian peninsula had considerable Moorish influence in it's history so praying in that manner would not have been considered at all abnormal ?
When I see the Portuguese names you get the sense the Christian church had a bigger influence. eg "MARIA NOELIA DE JESUS DO NASCIMENTO"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 07, 2017, 10:31:36 PM
It could be spills, empty sachets, pill bottles, capsules etcWhen I see the Portuguese names you get the sense the Christian church had a bigger influence. eg "MARIA NOELIA DE JESUS DO NASCIMENTO"
;
1. Ed Zachary; now expand along those lines.
2.Well we could have a pissing contest I suppose. None the less the Moors had considerable influence on the Iberian peninsula. It's simply a mater of recorded historical fact.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 07, 2017, 11:07:00 PM
Kidnapper drugged my twins.
Kindly get back on topic.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:27:22 AM
Kate wasn't able to care for herself, let alone her children, she says. Those convinced that her diagnosis and monitoring of her children was satisfactory may need to accept that their faith in her is misplaced imo.
What about Fiona Payne? You claim she did nothing wrong but no doubt if you'd been there you'd have taken charge and insisted the twins were taken to hospital, right?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:32:03 AM
I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really'. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Concerned to support Kate. No mention of the children.
And even though you seem to accept that Kate McCann was completely in pieces and Fiona Payne was in a role of caring for her (and the twins as Kate's book and her own statement later confirms) you still feel it is you duty to lambast Kate repeatedly whilst excusing Fiona from any responsibility - why is that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 12:44:10 AM
And even though you seem to accept that Kate McCann was completely in pieces and Fiona Payne was in a role of caring for her (and the twins as Kate's book and her own statement later confirms) you still feel it is you duty to lambast Kate repeatedly whilst excusing Fiona from any responsibility - why is that?
Did Kate even tell her that she suspected that the twins had been sedated? Does Fiona mention it ? If she didn't know how deeply that the twins slept she would have been unaware how unusual this level of unresponsiveness was.
It would be very odd if Kate didn't explicitly tell her friends, but especially Fiona, that she suspected the twins had been sedated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:45:12 AM
Make your mind up. Kate was either in a fit state of she wasn't. If she wasn't her diagnosis and monitoring of the children was likely to be unsatisfactory.
She wasn't the only doctor in the room able to observe and monitor the twins - "they were fine" said Fiona Payne - was her assessment unsatisfactory too?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 12:46:36 AM
Did Kate even tell her that she suspected that the twins had been sedated? Does Fiona mention it ? If she didn't know how deeply that the twins slept she would have been unaware how unusual this level of unresponsiveness was.
It would be very odd if Kate didn't explicitly tell her friends, but especially Fiona, that she suspected the twins had been sedated.
If Kate was capable of this then Fiona is exaggerating Kate's unfit state.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:50:10 AM
Did Kate even tell her that she suspected that the twins had been sedated? Does Fiona mention it ? If she didn't know how deeply that the twins slept she would have been unaware how unusual this level of unresponsiveness was.
It would be very odd if Kate didn't explicitly tell her friends, but especially Fiona, that she suspected the twins had been sedated.
"she (Kate) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'. - Fiona Payne statement. She is an anaesthetist. She saw Kate's concern about here children, she thought the fact that the children didn't wake up was "weird". We do not have a verbatim transcript of every word that passed between them that night but as Kate was clearly agitated by the twins' deep sleep and as both women sat together with a twin on each lap it would be strange if Kate had not mentioned to Fiona why she repeatedly checked on the twins, or for Fiona not to ask her about it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 01:05:15 AM
"she (Kate) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'. - Fiona Payne statement. She is an anaesthetist. She saw Kate's concern about here children, she thought the fact that the children didn't wake up was "weird". We do not have a verbatim transcript of every word that passed between them that night but as Kate was clearly agitated by the twins' deep sleep and as both women sat together with a twin on each lap it would be strange if Kate had not mentioned to Fiona why she repeatedly checked on the twins, or for Fiona not to ask her about it.
If Kate had furnished Fiona with a reason for her checking I'm sure Fiona would have mentioned it or as Fiona was at Kate's side most of the night she would have known why it was suspected that the twins were perhaps less responsive than she thought they should have been as her friend had just, allegedly, told the police officers present that she suspected her children had been sedated. The fact that Fiona found it 'weird' yet fails to qualify this with the suspected reason suggests Kate never voiced her concerns to, or in, Fiona's presence.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 07:17:38 AM
You could start by setting a good example on this thread, where you have refused to provide any.
I haven't refused to supply any I'm posting my opinion based on 40 yrs experience of sedation As I have not provided a cite then posters can make there own mind up if my opinion has any validity Supporters will....[ censored word] wont
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 07:45:17 AM
' Unresponsive and breathing child
What to look for - unresponsive and breathing child
If your child is not responding to you and you think they are unresponsive, ask loudly: ‘What has happened?’ or ‘Open your eyes’. Place one hand on their shoulder and tap gently. If they still do not respond, it’s likely they’re unresponsive.
What you need to do - unresponsive and breathing child
If you think your child is unresponsive, check to see if they are still breathing normally. If they are unresponsive and breathing, here's what you need to do:
Step 1 - Open their airway
Place one hand on the child’s forehead and gently tilt their head back. As you do this, their mouth will fall open slightly.
Place the fingertips of your other hand on the point of their chin and lift it.
Step 2 - Check to ensure they are breathing normally
Look, listen and feel for normal breathing – chest movement, sounds and breaths on your cheek. Do this for no more than ten seconds.
If they are breathing normally, put them into the recovery position to keep their airway open.
Step 3 - First, kneel down next to them on the floor
The next three steps are for if you find the child lying on their back. If you find them lying on their side or their front you may not need all three.
Place their arm nearest you at a right angle to their body, with the palm facing upwards. Take their other arm and place it across their chest so the back of their hand is against their cheek nearest you, and hold it there. With your other hand, lift their far knee and pull it up until their foot is flat on the floor. Now roll the child onto their side. Carefully pull on their bent knee and roll them towards you. Once you’ve done this, the top arm should be supporting their head and the bent leg should be on the floor to stop them from rolling over too far. Next, check that their airway is open, so they can breathe, and any fluid in their mouth can drain away. To do this, tilt their head back, gently tilt their chin forward and make sure that their airway will stay open and clear.
But, if you think your child could have a spinal injury, you must try and keep their neck as still as possible. Instead of tilting their neck, use the jaw thrust technique:
Place your hands on either side of their face and with your fingertips gently lift the jaw to open the airway, avoiding any movement of their neck.
Once you’ve put them safely into the recovery position, call 999 or 112 for emergency help.
Remember that until help arrives you must keep checking that they’re still breathing normally.
If they stop breathing normally at any point, call 999 or 112 straight away and get ready to give them chest compressions and rescue breaths – CPR. '
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 07:49:45 AM
' Sedation in under 19s: using sedation for diagnostic and therapeutic procedures
Clinical guideline [CG112] Published date: December 2010
1 Guidance 1.1 Pre‑sedation assessment, communication, patient information and consent 1.2 Fasting 1.3 Psychological preparation 1.4 Personnel and training 1.5 Discharge criteria 1.6 Painless imaging 1.7 Clinical environment and monitoring 1.8 Painful procedures 1.9 Dental procedures 1.10 Endoscopy The following guidance is based on the best available evidence and consensus of the Guideline Development Group (GDG) members. The full guideline gives details of the methods and evidence used to develop the guidance.
1.1 Pre‑sedation assessment, communication, patient information and consent
1.1.1 Ensure that trained healthcare professionals (see section 1.4) carry out pre‑sedation assessments and document the results in the healthcare record. 1.1.2 Establish suitability for sedation by assessing all of the following: current medical condition and any surgical problems
weight (growth assessment)
past medical problems (including any associated with previous sedation or anaesthesia)
current and previous medication (including any allergies)
physical status (including the airway)
psychological and developmental status.
1.1.3 Seek advice from a specialist before delivering sedation: if there is concern about a potential airway or breathing problem
if the child or young person is assessed as American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) grade 3[4] or greater
for infants, including neonates.
1.1.4 Ensure that both the following will be available during sedation: a healthcare professional and assistant trained (see section 1.4) in delivering and monitoring sedation in children and young people
immediate access to resuscitation and monitoring equipment (see section 1.5).
1.1.5 Choose the most suitable sedation technique based on all the following factors: what the procedure involves
target level of sedation
contraindications
side effects
patient (or parent or carer) preference.
1.1.6 To enable the child or young person and their parents or carers to make an informed decision, offer them verbal and written information on all of the following: proposed sedation technique
the alternatives to sedation
associated risks and benefits.
1.1.7 Obtain and document informed consent for sedation. 1.2 Fasting
1.2.1 Before starting sedation, confirm and record the time of last food and fluid intake in the healthcare record. 1.2.2 Fasting is not needed for: minimal sedation
sedation with nitrous oxide (in oxygen)
moderate sedation during which the child or young person will maintain verbal contact with the healthcare professional.
1.2.3 Apply the 2‑4‑6 fasting rule[5] for elective procedures using any sedation technique other than those in recommendation 1.2.2 (that is, apply the 2‑4‑6 fasting rule for deep sedation and moderate sedation during which the child or young person might not maintain verbal contact with the healthcare professional). 1.2.4 For an emergency procedure in a child or young person who has not fasted, base the decision to proceed with sedation on the urgency of the procedure and the target depth of sedation. 1.3 Psychological preparation
1.3.1 Ensure that the child or young person is prepared psychologically for sedation by offering information about: the procedure
what the child or young person should do and what the healthcare professional will do
the sensations associated with the procedure (for example, a sharp scratch or numbness)
how to cope with the procedure.
1.3.2 Ensure that the information is appropriate for the developmental stage of the child or young person and check that the child or young person has understood the information. 1.3.3 Offer parents and carers the opportunity to be present during sedation if appropriate. If a parent or carer decides to be present, offer them advice about their role during the procedure. 1.3.4 For an elective procedure, consider referring to a mental health specialist children or young people who are severely anxious or who have a learning disability. 1.4 Personnel and training
1.4.1 Healthcare professionals delivering sedation should have knowledge and understanding of and competency in: sedation drug pharmacology and applied physiology
assessment of children and young people
monitoring
recovery care
complications and their immediate management, including paediatric life support.
1.4.2 Healthcare professionals delivering sedation should have practical experience of: effectively delivering the chosen sedation technique and managing complications
observing clinical signs (for example, airway patency, breathing rate and depth, pulse, pallor and cyanosis, and depth of sedation)
using monitoring equipment.
1.4.3 Ensure that members of the sedation team have the following life support skills: Minimal sedation a
Moderate sedation
Deep sedation
All members
Basic
Basic
Basic
At least one member
Intermediate
Advanced
a Including sedation with nitrous oxide alone (in oxygen) and conscious sedation in dentistry.
1.4.4 Ensure that a healthcare professional trained in delivering anaesthetic agents[6] is available to administer: sevoflurane
propofol
opioids combined with ketamine.
1.4.5 Healthcare professionals delivering sedation should have documented up‑to‑date evidence of competency including: satisfactory completion of a theoretical training course covering the principles of sedation practice
a comprehensive record of practical experience of sedation techniques, including details of:
sedation in children and young people performed under supervision
successful completion of work‑based assessments.
1.4.6 Each healthcare professional and their team delivering sedation should ensure they update their knowledge and skills through programmes designed for continuing professional development. 1.4.7 Consider referring to an anaesthesia specialist a child or young person who is not able to tolerate the procedure under sedation. 1.5 Discharge criteria
1.5.1 Ensure that all of the following criteria are met before the child or young person is discharged: vital signs (usually body temperature, heart rate, blood pressure and respiratory rate) have returned to normal levels
the child or young person is awake (or returned to baseline level of consciousness) and there is no risk of further reduced level of consciousness
nausea, vomiting and pain have been adequately managed.
1.6 Painless imaging
1.6.1 Do not routinely use ketamine or opioids for painless imaging procedures[6]. 1.6.2 For children and young people who are unable to tolerate a painless procedure (for example, during diagnostic imaging) consider one of the following drugs, which have a wide margin of safety[6]: chloral hydrate for children under 15 kg
midazolam.
1.6.3 For children and young people who are unable to tolerate painless imaging with the above drugs, consider one of the following, used in specialist techniques, which have a narrow margin of safety (see section 1.4)[6]: propofol
sevoflurane.
1.7 Clinical environment and monitoring
1.7.1 For moderate sedation excluding with nitrous oxide alone (in oxygen) continuously monitor, interpret and respond to changes in all of the following: depth of sedation
respiration
oxygen saturation
heart rate
pain
coping
distress.
1.7.2 For deep sedation continuously monitor, interpret and respond[7] to changes in all of the following: depth of sedation
respiration
oxygen saturation
heart rate
three‑lead electrocardiogram
end tidal CO2 (capnography)[8]
blood pressure (monitor every 5 minutes)[8]
pain
coping
distress.
1.7.3 Ensure that data from continuous monitoring during sedation are clearly documented in the healthcare record. 1.7.4 After the procedure, continue monitoring until the child or young person: has a patent airway
shows protective airway and breathing reflexes
is haemodynamically stable
is easily roused.
1.8 Painful procedures
1.8.1 For children and young people undergoing a painful procedure (for example suture laceration or orthopaedic manipulation), when the target level of sedation is minimal or moderate, consider: nitrous oxide (in oxygen) and/or
midazolam (oral or intranasal)[6].
1.8.2 For all children and young people undergoing a painful procedure, consider using a local anaesthetic, as well as a sedative. 1.8.3 For children and young people undergoing a painful procedure (for example, suture laceration or orthopaedic manipulation) in whom nitrous oxide (in oxygen) and/or midazolam (oral or intranasal) are unsuitable consider[6]: ketamine (intravenous or intramuscular), or
intravenous midazolam with or without fentanyl (to achieve moderate sedation).
1.8.4 For children and young people undergoing a painful procedure (for example suture laceration or orthopaedic manipulation) in whom ketamine (intravenous or intramuscular) or intravenous midazolam with or without fentanyl (to achieve moderate sedation) are unsuitable, consider a specialist sedation technique such as propofol with or without fentanyl[6]. 1.9 Dental procedures
1.9.1 For a child or young person who cannot tolerate a dental procedure with local anaesthesia alone, to achieve conscious sedation consider: nitrous oxide (in oxygen) or
midazolam[6].
If these sedation techniques are not suitable or sufficient, refer to a specialist team for an alternative sedation technique.
1.10 Endoscopy
1.10.1 Consider intravenous midazolam to achieve minimal or moderate sedation for upper gastrointestinal endoscopy[6]. 1.10.2 Consider fentanyl (or equivalent opioid) in combination with intravenous midazolam to achieve moderate sedation for lower gastrointestinal endoscopy[6].
[4] The ASA physical status classification system (grades 1–6) is a system to classify and grade a patient's physical status before anaesthesia.
[5] Fasting times should be as for general anaesthesia: 2 hours for clear fluids; 4 hours for breast milk; 6 hours for solids.
[6] At the time of publication (December 2010), no drugs have a UK marketing authorisation specifically for sedation in all ages of infants, children and young people under 19. The prescriber should follow relevant professional guidance, taking full responsibility for the decision, and using a drug's summary of product characteristics and the British national formulary for children. Informed consent should be obtained and documented. See the General Medical Council's Good practice in prescribing and managing medicines and devices for further information.
[7] For deep sedation, a healthcare professional should be involved only in continuously monitoring, interpreting and responding to all of the above.
[8] End tidal CO2 and blood pressure should be monitored, if possible, provided that monitoring does not cause the patient to awaken and so prevent completion of the procedure. '
What about Fiona Payne? You claim she did nothing wrong but no doubt if you'd been there you'd have taken charge and insisted the twins were taken to hospital, right?
I said, in reply to your 'malpractice' comment that she wasn't responsible for the care of the children. I meant she did nothing wrong in that legal sense.
If someone told me that they feared their children had been sedated with a unknown substance by an unknown assailant I would try to impress upon them that the children needed to be examined. I would have no right to insist on anything
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 08:35:36 AM
Cite the statement where Kate Mccann stated she checked her children.
N.B. The book and and any subsequent comments made months later are irrelevant, and it cannot be independently verified, she did any such thing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 08:38:08 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm "She went there to meet them. When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember. Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand." and "At that time Gerry was on the ground on his knees, he hit the ground with both his hands, looking like an Arab at prayer, and emitted two screams of rage [fury, madness] but she could not understand what he said." Basically two versions of the same.
What were other situations of discrimination you mentioned?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:40:32 AM
Kate will be aware of all of this but nowhere does she say the twins were unresponsive so nothing you have posted is relevant
She didn't use the actual word, but she says;
In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Madeleine
Two children sleeping unnaturally deeply. So deeply that she checked 'for signs of life'. SIGNS OF LIFE. That sounds horrific, because it allows for the possibility that she would find no signs of life next time she 'wandered' into the room.
I can think of no reason why the children weren't checked for responsiveness. It's such an obvious thing to do and very strange that it wasn't done.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:48:29 AM
So after many pages of saying Kates actions of checking the twins breathing was not sufficient you don't even accept that Lol The cite is the book If you don't accept it that's up to you but a cite has been provided
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:50:24 AM
In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural. Madeleine
Two children sleeping unnaturally deeply. So deeply that she checked 'for signs of life'. SIGNS OF LIFE. That sounds horrific, because it allows for the possibility that she would find no signs of life next time she 'wandered' into the room.
I can think of no reason why the children weren't checked for responsiveness. It's such an obvious thing to do and very strange that it wasn't done.
If she didn't use that word then the twins should not be referred to as unresponsive
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
She wasn't the only doctor in the room able to observe and monitor the twins - "they were fine" said Fiona Payne - was her assessment unsatisfactory too?
Fiona said Kate went in to check the twins. Fiona wasn't in the bedroom. She said it was weird, but was that in hindsight? They were fine is more hindsight, they were fine the day after.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 08:57:29 AM
If she didn't use that word then the twins should not be referred to as unresponsive
We'll never know because this doctor neglected to perform the most basic test on these supposedly drugged children. The test that the most basic first-aider would have performed first; waking them up.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 08:58:33 AM
Cite the statement where Kate Mccann stated she checked her children.
N.B. The book and and any subsequent comments made months later are irrelevant, and it cannot be independently verified, she did any such thing.
The PJ only took a short statement from Kate on the 4th, that hardly covered any detail. The main statement she makes is in her book. "Faced with this troubling situation, Kate checked that the twins were in their beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared." Gerry McCann
"----- The deponent ran to the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment." Gerry McCann
"After the birth of the twins, Kate did not work for a year, on maternity leave, and currently works part-time as above. --- When questioned, he states that none of his children takes any kind of medication regularly in England. --- When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal." Gerry McCann
--- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate. When asked why he did not ask the twins what happened to their sister, he says that when the events took place they still did not speak fluently, which is now a normal developmental difficulty. At this point he did not ask them because he thought that they would not have the correct perception of what had happened, in addition to thinking that they would have been sleeping." Gerry McCann
". The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn't know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment." Kate
Later on the kids are found sleeping on their stomachs. This could be significant.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 09:02:13 AM
The book was written some time later after the event.
The children were not taken for examination.
She left the same two children after Madeleine was declared to have disappeared.
The CITES I gacve earlier, CLEARLY SHOW WHAT STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN.
I have checked Kate Mccann's records as to her qualifications on the GMC database, which appear under her maiden name. No specialty is indicated or given. FACT.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
The book was written some time later after the event.
The children were not taken for examination.
She left the same two children after Madeleine was declared to have disappeared.
The CITES I gacve earlier, CLEARLY SHOW WHAT STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN.
I have checked Kate Mccann's records as to her qualifications on the GMC database, which appear under her maiden name. No specialty is indicated or given. FACT.
The cites you have are for an unresponsive child Cite for the twins being unresponsive as opposed to being in a deep sleep
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 09:08:05 AM
The book was written some time later after the event.
The children were not taken for examination.
She left the same two children after Madeleine was declared to have disappeared.
The CITES I gacve earlier, CLEARLY SHOW WHAT STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN.
I have checked Kate Mccann's records as to her qualifications on the GMC database, which appear under her maiden name. No specialty is indicated or given. FACT.
She put the twins down on their backs and later they are on their fronts. Has someone repositioned the kids? They were not unresponsive. They just sleep better than expected.
She put the twins down on their backs and later they are on their fronts. Has someone repositioned the kids? They were not unresponsive. They just sleep better than expected. I agree.
Are you a Doctor ?
Do you have any medical training ?
Did you even bother to read through the material ,I cited a short time ago ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 09:16:44 AM
As a reminder, we do not know the children were in a deep sleep.
That is supposition.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 09:20:13 AM
The PJ only took a short statement from Kate on the 4th, that hardly covered any detail. The main statement she makes is in her book. "Faced with this troubling situation, Kate checked that the twins were in their beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared." Gerry McCann
"----- The deponent ran to the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment." Gerry McCann
"After the birth of the twins, Kate did not work for a year, on maternity leave, and currently works part-time as above. --- When questioned, he states that none of his children takes any kind of medication regularly in England. --- When they travelled on holiday to Portugal they brought several medicines, namely Calpol, Nurofen, for fevers and pains, both for adults and children, Losec for gastric problems that he occasionally suffers from, and an anti-histamine called Terfenadine for hay fever. He did not give any of these medicines or any others to the children while on holiday in Portugal." Gerry McCann
--- When questioned if the twins woke while the apartment was being searched, he replies negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, and can find no reason for it happening. He still thought at this moment that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate. When asked why he did not ask the twins what happened to their sister, he says that when the events took place they still did not speak fluently, which is now a normal developmental difficulty. At this point he did not ask them because he thought that they would not have the correct perception of what had happened, in addition to thinking that they would have been sleeping." Gerry McCann
". The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn't know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment." Kate
Later on the kids are found sleeping on their stomachs. This could be significant.
Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room [Madeleine]
Who is we, Kate?
the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Looks like Gerry has forgotten he carried a twin.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 09:21:45 AM
Fiona and David’s apartment and we carried a sleepy Sean and Amelie into their sitting room [Madeleine]
Who is we, Kate?
the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Looks like Gerry has forgotten he carried a twin.
What believe Silvia?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 08, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
Surely, you would agree, in an unknown situation, with a child missing, and the other two children unresponsive, testing the other two children should have been of paramount importance.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 09:33:08 AM
The cites you have are for an unresponsive child Cite for the twins being unresponsive as opposed to being in a deep sleep
A sleep that seemed 'unnatural' to their mother, you mean? Why didn't she carry out the basic first step of rousing them? Why didn't she alert her friends that she feared the children had been drugged? Why did she treat it so casually despite saying she was checking for signs of life? A doctor checks patients for signs of life dispassionately. A mother checks her own child for signs of life desperately.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 09:35:21 AM
Surely, you would agree, in an unknown situation, with a child missing, and the other two children unresponsive, testing the other two children should have been of paramount importance.
They were not unresponsive, they just slept better than expected. I know this because there are quotes that say that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 09:41:20 AM
If there are two different stories how do you choose one ahead of the other? They were not unresponsive, they just slept better than expected. I know this because there are quotes that say that.
No Rob, there is no independent verification of that.
Get your facts right.
The procedure for checking and testing is clearly laid out.
The question is, WHY ARE YOU DENYING THAT ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 09:44:24 AM
If there are two different stories how do you choose one ahead of the other? They were not unresponsive, they just slept better than expected. I know this because there are quotes that say that.
Both of them, together, on the very night that Madeleine disappears. Whereas on a previous night one of them was howling its little head off.
Coincidence or suspicious? - You decide.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 09:49:15 AM
As a reminder, we do not know the children were in a deep sleep.
That is supposition.
And the most likely
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 09:55:45 AM
Fiona's rogatory "But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 10:02:02 AM
Fiona's rogatory "But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'."
How does she know they were sleeping and not drugged or sedated ?
....and the answer of course, is that she didn't.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 10:04:24 AM
How does she know they were sleeping and not drugged or sedated ?
....and the answer of course, is that she didn't.
Of course you are right , they might have been drugged and Kate evidently was more concerned than Fiona was. Why would that be? Fiona's rogatory "'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird,..."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 10:11:28 AM
Of course you are right , they might have been drugged and Kate evidently was more concerned than Fiona was. Why would that be? Fiona's rogatory "'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird,..."
I would say there is a fairly obvious reason as to why the Mccann's didn't have the children tested.
Bearing in mind the circumstances, it could have been done a few days later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
There's no evidence she was untruthful unless you have a cite. Emma Knight was with the group from 11pm onwards and mentions nothing about suspected sedation. She checked the children once and says they were OK. She doesn't say who carried the children to the new apartment (4G) but she says both McCanns went there and Kate and Fiona sat hugging the twins. They were still in that apartment when she left at 4.30 am. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Diane speaks about it with no mention of hugging on the couch in the Payne's apartment. She thinks the children were carried in by Fiona and Dave and put straight into their cots at 4.30-5am, which would be after Emma left them in 4G. She marvelled at them sleeping through all the noise in 5A and while being taken out into the cold.
4078 ”But with all your experience of small children, you thought that was odd that they had not woken?” Reply ”Oh yeah definitely. Well even err the noise that was going on in the apartment and they slept through it all.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 10:22:37 AM
I'm sure they wanted it done, but it didn't happen. It is the PJ's job to organise the tests not the McCanns.
Tell us what the "fairly obvious reason" was?
Again, if you bothered to read and take in the content of my posts, you would have seen already, that I stated the police should have had the children tested.
The Mccann's as so called professionals had plenty of time to have them tested, AND INSIST ON IT.
They didn't.
Ask yourself why they didn't.
Don't bother saying they were busy doing other things.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 10:24:38 AM
There's no evidence she was untruthful unless you have a cite. Emma Knight was with the group from 11pm onwards and mentions nothing about suspected sedation. She checked the children once and says they were OK. She doesn't say who carried the children to the new apartment (4G) but she says both McCanns went there and Kate and Fiona sat hugging the twins. They were still in that apartment when she left at 4.30 am. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Diane speaks about it with no mention of hugging on the couch in the Payne's apartment. She thinks the children were carried in by Fiona and Dave and put straight into their cots at 4.30-5am, which would be after Emma left them in 4G. She marvelled at them sleeping through all the noise in 5A and while being taken out into the cold.
4078 ”But with all your experience of small children, you thought that was odd that they had not woken?” Reply ”Oh yeah definitely. Well even err the noise that was going on in the apartment and they slept through it all.” http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
I questioned Silvia because she had a conflict of interest. There were many unsupported statements of fact in her statements. There is a whole thread on it. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7864.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 10:26:13 AM
I'm sure they wanted it done, but it didn't happen. It is the PJ's job to organise the tests not the McCanns.
Tell us what the "fairly obvious reason" was?
Given the McCann's 'hands on' approach to the investigation and their connections, they could have had their children tested at any time up until they had their hair cut.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 10:32:09 AM
Given the McCann's 'hands on' approach to the investigation and their connections, they could have had their children tested at any time up until they had their hair cut.
They say they had their own tests done, but to be fair the PJ should have done it. For how many drugs are they going to analyse for?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 10:35:32 AM
They say they had their own tests done, but to be fair the PJ should have done it. For how many drugs are they going to analyse for?
Have they ever disclosed the results? - I can't remember.
If you feed a suitably processed sample through a mass spectrometer, you can detect just about anything. Forensic laboratories have such facilities, as will Leicester University Medical dept.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 10:36:39 AM
I'm sure they wanted it done, but it didn't happen. It is the PJ's job to organise the tests not the McCanns.
It was the McCann's job to check if the children were responding, but they didn't do it. Control Risks arrived very quickly and they could have arranged it then had the parents wanted it done, rather than months later.
Perhaps you'd like to provide a cite showing that the PJ even knew, before accusing them of dereliction of duty?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 10:54:37 AM
For reference purposes.
Posters can look up the use of Gas-Chromatography and now normally, Time of Flight Mass Spectrometry in forensic analysis, including testing for drugs
The principles of which, and some of the applications of, are on G.C.S.E. and 'A' Level Chemistry courses (the latter in more detail). So it should not be beyond the pale of most posters or guests to understand the principles involved.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 11:02:11 AM
Have they ever disclosed the results? - I can't remember.
If you feed a suitably processed sample through a mass spectrometer, you can detect just about anything. Forensic laboratories have such facilities.
Kate;
All the hair samples produced negative results. While this didn’t totally exclude the possibility that the children had been sedated, especially given the time that had elapsed, it meant nobody else (including the PJ and the media) could prove otherwise. [Madeleine]
Kate is saying that the children still may have been sedated, but no-one would be able to prove that they were. From wanting to confirm her belief that 'the kidnapper' drugged her twins she later seems pleased that sedation can't be proved.
Her priorities are very different at this stage, of course. Her aim is to defend herself against accusations that she may have done it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 11:36:49 AM
Surely, you would agree, in an unknown situation, with a child missing, and the other two children unresponsive, testing the other two children should have been of paramount importance.
Apparently one of the officers noticed that the twins didn't wake with all the noise going on, how he knew this was not normal I don't know, but if he thought it wasn't normal, then why didn't he question it? Why wasn't the bedding the twins were sleeping on and the clothes the twins were sleeping in tested for drugs? They tested Madeleine's bed but not the twins cots.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 11:37:47 AM
All the hair samples produced negative results. While this didn’t totally exclude the possibility that the children had been sedated, especially given the time that had elapsed, it meant nobody else (including the PJ and the media) could prove otherwise. [Madeleine]
Kate is saying that the children still may have been sedated, but no-one would be able to prove that they were. From wanting to confirm her belief that 'the kidnapper' drugged her twins she later seems pleased that sedation can't be proved.
Her priorities are very different at this stage, of course. Her aim is to defend herself against accusations that she may have done it.
Done what?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 11:49:16 AM
The sedation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 12:07:35 PM
We'll never know because this doctor neglected to perform the most basic test on these supposedly drugged children. The test that the most basic first-aider would have performed first; waking them up.
Once again I ask you to provide a minute-by-minute account of Kate's actions that night with regard the twins. Please tell us everything you know about what she did and did not do with regard to checking their responses, and other vital signs, with cites. Thank you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 12:36:40 PM
Once again I ask you to provide a minute-by-minute account of Kate's actions that night with regard the twins. Please tell us everything you know about what she did and did not do with regard to checking their responses, and other vital signs, with cites. Thank you.
Kate tells us she put her hands on the twins backs to feel for signs of life. Can you think of any reason she wouldn't have told us about the other steps she took?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:40:00 PM
Kate tells us she put her hands on the twins backs to feel for signs of life. Can you think of any reason she wouldn't have told us about the other steps she took?
Brevity? Do you seriously think that the book is a minute by minute account of all actions undertaken by Kate McCann that night?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:43:47 PM
Fiona said Kate went in to check the twins. Fiona wasn't in the bedroom. She said it was weird, but was that in hindsight? They were fine is more hindsight, they were fine the day after.
No, it wasn't in hindsight: but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'. So Fiona Payne thought it was weird at the time but even as a qualified anesthetist did not apparently recognise the signs of an overdosed child nor recommend immediate medical attention, but you think she did nothing wrong?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 12:44:07 PM
Brevity? Do you seriously think that the book is a minute by minute account of all actions undertaken by Kate McCann that night?
Brevity? There are pages and pages about how Kate was offended by not being offered a snack by the PJ or that the priest was slightly too upbeat yet for what should have been the meat of the book she chooses brevity. Really?
What I really don't get Alfie is that you are obviously an intelligent individual who must know your post above is hogwash. Why you chose to open yourself up to the ridicule you obviously must know will follow heaven alone knows.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 12:52:10 PM
No, it wasn't in hindsight: but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'. So Fiona Payne thought it was weird at the time but even as a qualified anesthetist did not apparently recognise the signs of an overdosed child nor recommend immediate medical attention, but you think she did nothing wrong?
If Kate had furnished Fiona with a reason for her checking I'm sure Fiona would have mentioned it or as Fiona was at Kate's side most of the night she would have known why it was suspected that the twins were perhaps less responsive than she thought they should have been as her friend had just, allegedly, told the police officers present that she suspected her children had been sedated. The fact that Fiona found it 'weird' yet fails to qualify this with the suspected reason suggests Kate never voiced her concerns to, or in, Fiona's presence.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
If Kate had furnished Fiona with a reason for her checking I'm sure Fiona would have mentioned it or as Fiona was at Kate's side most of the night she would have known why it was suspected that the twins were perhaps less responsive than she thought they should have been as her friend had just, allegedly, told the police officers present that she suspected her children had been sedated. The fact that Fiona found it 'weird' yet fails to qualify this with the suspected reason suggests Kate never voiced her concerns to, or in, Fiona's presence.
So you're saying that Fiona, whilst finding the twins behaviour weird, and whilst being a qualified anesthetist (who you would have thought would recognise the difference between a sleeping and a sedated child) would need to have been explicitly told by Kate that she feared sedation before suggesting that maybe the twins might need medical assistance?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 12:56:52 PM
Brevity? There are pages and pages about how Kate was offended by not being offered a snack by the PJ or that the priestwas slightly too upbeat yet for what should have been the meat of the book she chooses brevity. Really?
What I really don't get Alfie is that you are obviously an intelligent individual who must know your post above is hogwash. Why you chose to open yourself up to the ridicule you obviously must know will follow heaven alone knows.
Could I have all the many page numbers for the above highlighted please?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 01:02:59 PM
No, it wasn't in hindsight: but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'. So Fiona Payne thought it was weird at the time but even as a qualified anesthetist did not apparently recognise the signs of an overdosed child nor recommend immediate medical attention, but you think she did nothing wrong?
Strange, isn't it? In their rog. interviews a lot of people report how strange it seemed, although no-one mentioned it in their official Portuguese statements in the weeks after the event. Even the mother only mentioned Madeleine to the FLO's.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 01:07:02 PM
What do you think 'the kidnapper' gave their children?
I don't think the kidnapper give the twins anything, such as medicine or tablets. Though if something was given to Madeleine, in my opinion it was some chemical that was put on a cloth for her to breath in, could be he then put it briefly under the noses of the twins. The fact that they were both on their knees asleep, gives me the impression that they woke up and maybe the kidnapper put something under their noses and they dropped onto their knees asleep.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:07:10 PM
Strange, isn't it? In their rog. interviews a lot of people report how strange it seemed, although no-one mentioned it in their official Portuguese statements in the weeks after the event. Even the mother only mentioned Madeleine to the FLO's.
The statements taken in Portugal tend to focus far more on actions and facts rather than on emotions and feelings, have you noticed that? But still, you think it's strange that Fiona Payne didn't mention it at the time - so what do you infer from this?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
Strange, isn't it? In their rog. interviews a lot of people report how strange it seemed, although no-one mentioned it in their official Portuguese statements in the weeks after the event. Even the mother only mentioned Madeleine to the FLO's.
By the time of the rogatories the 'story' that the children might have been drugged was definitely in the public domain, hence the questioning.
That part is straight-forward.
Why no one mentioned this is an earlier statement is more difficult to explain.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:14:05 PM
By the time of the rogatories the 'story' that the children might have been drugged was definitely in the public domain, hence the questioning.
That part is straight-forward.
Why no one mentioned this is an earlier statement is more difficult to explain.
What I have always found strange is how perfunctory all the Portuguese statements are generally. Given that everyone was questioned for hours it begs the question just what was not recorded in the statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 08, 2017, 01:18:42 PM
None of the other Tapas 9 children appear to have been awoken by the noise which must have been going on outside as it was not mentioned in any statements. Had they been sedated too & should they have been taken to hospital?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 01:20:17 PM
The statements taken in Portugal tend to focus far more on actions and facts rather than on emotions and feelings, have you noticed that? But still, you think it's strange that Fiona Payne didn't mention it at the time - so what do you infer from this?
Actions such as placing a hand on the backs of children to check for signs of life? Facts such as Madeleine reporting that her siblings cried the night before? Kate was interviewed on 8th August, she says;
Was there anything else I wanted to add? Anything else unusual that had occurred that night? Of course there wasn’t. If there had been I would have told them on 3 May. I’d recounted absolutely everything and anything – more than they wanted or needed to know, probably, just in case some triviality I recalled might be significant. How could they think I would hold something back that might help my daughter? [Madeleine]
Everything except the possible sedation of her other children, it seems.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 01:20:57 PM
What I have always found strange is how perfunctory all the Portuguese statements are generally. Given that everyone was questioned for hours it begs the question just what was not recorded in the statements.
I've raised this point before Kate questioned for around 19 hrs and her statements can be read in a couple of minutes Just how much the PJ decided to leave out we don't know
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 01:23:14 PM
So you're saying that Fiona, whilst finding the twins behaviour weird, and whilst being a qualified anesthetist (who you would have thought would recognise the difference between a sleeping and a sedated child) would need to have been explicitly told by Kate that she feared sedation before suggesting that maybe the twins might need medical assistance?
Why would Fiona second guess their own mother ? Kate was a qualified anaesthetist too.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:24:14 PM
We know that Gerry feared Madeleine may have been taken by a paedophile that night but nowhere are his fears mentioned in his statement (if I recall correctly) - is that absence suspicious too? Probably, to some!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:26:26 PM
Why would Fiona second guess their own mother ? Kate was a qualified anaesthetist too.
Because she is a human being with children of her own, a doctor who has taken an oath to dedicate her life to saving lives, because she has a tongue in her head, because if she really thought the kids were in danger it would be the morally correct thing to do?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 01:26:57 PM
None of the other Tapas 9 children appear to have been awoken by the noise which must have been going on outside as it was not mentioned in any statements. Had they been sedated too & should they have been taken to hospital?
None of the other children reportedly had their bedroom window and shutters open with the wind blowing in. They didn't have people switching their bedroom light on and rummaging under beds and in cupboards, They didn't have anyone screaming in their apartments.
Comparing like with like is always a good idea.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 01:36:39 PM
Because she is a human being with children of her own, a doctor who has taken an oath to dedicate her life to saving lives, because she has a tongue in her head, because if she really thought the kids were in danger it would be the morally correct thing to do?
But she didn't think they were in danger because Kate had checked them and she didn't seem concerned.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 01:38:07 PM
Why would Fiona second guess their own mother ? Kate was a qualified anaesthetist too.
Kate was in no fit state to be thinking rationally, Fiona was assuring her the twins were fine. How do you know they didn't roll over [not something someone unconscious would do] how do you know Fiona didn't lift them up and they snuggled down onto her shoulder [not something someone unconscious would do] You don't know.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:38:19 PM
Heads-up Faithlilly, I'm about to make another "hogwash" post for you to ridicule: How many parents really know how their young children would behave in a scenario such as that which the twins found themselves in on the night of 3rd May? The circumstances were extraordinary and I would guess that the McCanns had never before been in the position of barging into their sleeping children's bedroom, switching on the light and making a lot of noise. Most parents would probably imagine or believe that their kids would wake up in such a scenario but that doesn't mean they actually would.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:39:17 PM
Heads-up Faithlilly, I'm about to make another "hogwash" post for you to ridicule: How many parents really know how their young children would behave in a scenario such as that which the twins found themselves in on the night of 3rd May? The circumstances were extraordinary and I would guess that the McCanns had never before been in the position of barging into their sleeping children's bedroom, switching on the light and making a lot of noise. Most parents would probably imagine or believe that their kids would wake up in such a scenario but that doesn't mean they actually would.
Kate thought her children had been sedated yet did nothing. No matter how long and rambling your posts there really is no getting away from that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 01:47:01 PM
By the time of the rogatories the 'story' that the children might have been drugged was definitely in the public domain, hence the questioning.
That part is straight-forward.
Why no one mentioned this is an earlier statement is more difficult to explain.
There was a question included in the rog. interviews;
Did you enter the McCann's apartment ? Did you enter the bedroom the children were sleeping in ? Can you describe what you saw ? Did you see the twins ? Did you notice anything strange about them ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
It was the McCanns who wanted that question asked, not the PJ as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 01:48:13 PM
Kate was in no fit state to be thinking rationally, Fiona was assuring her the twins were fine. How do you know they didn't roll over [not something someone unconscious would do] how do you know Fiona didn't lift them up and they snuggled down onto her shoulder [not something someone unconscious would do] You don't know.
Whether Kate was thinking rationally is not the point. Kate says she thought her twins may have been sedated and raised her concerns with the police officers present. There is no evidence of this in any of the statements of those present so, rationally, we can only conclude that it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
Whether Kate was thinking rationally is not the point. Kate says she thought her twins may have been sedated and raised her concerns with the police officers present. There is no evidence of this in any of the statements of those present so, rationally, we can only conclude that it didn't happen.
So is what you're saying - Kate did not think her children had been sedated at the time, but only pretended to think this later?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 01:56:59 PM
But she didn't think they were in danger because Kate had checked them and she didn't seem concerned.
If Fiona Payne thought Kate didn't seem concerned why did she say in her Rogatory "she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay"? Fiona Payne thought the twins behavioour at the time was "weird" and she thought Kate was "very concerned" but you think she should simply have kept her counsel do you?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 02:07:42 PM
If Fiona Payne thought Kate didn't seem concerned why did she say in her Rogatory "she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay"? Fiona Payne thought the twins behavioour at the time was "weird" and she thought Kate was "very concerned" but you think she should simply have kept her counsel do you?
What I think is neither here nor there and neither are Fiona's actions. Kate thought the twins had been sedated yet there is no evidence that she told anyone. It is Kate's actions we are discussing not Fiona's. if you want to question Fiona's actions can I suggest you open another thread.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 02:24:57 PM
I've raised this point before Kate questioned for around 19 hrs and her statements can be read in a couple of minutes Just how much the PJ decided to leave out we don't know
I note it has now gone up from 15 hours to 19 hours. Make up your mind.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 02:26:35 PM
It is perfectly clear from reading the files that there is no evidence that Kate alerted anyone in an official capacity to her concerns that her children had been sedated. That is not libel, that is simply a fact. What people chose to extrapolate from that is their concern.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 02:28:24 PM
What I have always found strange is how perfunctory all the Portuguese statements are generally. Given that everyone was questioned for hours it begs the question just what was not recorded in the statements.
Hardly.
Sedation was not in the statements.
So unless you are on a massive conspiracy bender, sedation was not discussed.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 02:36:43 PM
There was a question included in the rog. interviews;
Did you enter the McCann's apartment ? Did you enter the bedroom the children were sleeping in ? Can you describe what you saw ? Did you see the twins ? Did you notice anything strange about them ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
It was the McCanns who wanted that question asked, not the PJ as far as I can see.
I accept that by the time of the rogs sedation was definitely an item on the menu, 'cos it arose much earlier. What I don't know is when it first reared its head.
In the May 2007 T9 interviews it was a non-issue. So what was the origin?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 02:45:38 PM
I don't think the kidnapper give the twins anything, such as medicine or tablets. Though if something was given to Madeleine, in my opinion it was some chemical that was put on a cloth for her to breath in, could be he then put it briefly under the noses of the twins. The fact that they were both on their knees asleep, gives me the impression that they woke up and maybe the kidnapper put something under their noses and they dropped onto their knees asleep.
Ah, now kidnapper, not abductor ?
Neither has been proven to exist.
You do know that, DON'T YOU.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 02:52:29 PM
Whether Kate was thinking rationally is not the point. Kate says she thought her twins may have been sedated and raised her concerns with the police officers present. There is no evidence of this in any of the statements of those present so, rationally, we can only conclude that it didn't happen.
Then no one was taking notice of her, maybe she was hysterical and didn't make herself clear.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 03:37:19 PM
Then no one was taking notice of her, maybe she was hysterical and didn't make herself clear.
Her friend was by her side yet didn't notice. Her husband didn't notice either. Yet, strangely, almost to a man the people in the apartment that night heard Kate asking for a priest. Selective hearing indeed.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 03:44:57 PM
To be a specialist, you require qualifications.
Webster/Payne got hers in 2010.
Healy/McCann hasn't.
Those are FACTS and indisputable.
Merely working in an anesthetics department does not make you an anaesthetist.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 03:46:08 PM
What I think is neither here nor there and neither are Fiona's actions. Kate thought the twins had been sedated yet there is no evidence that she told anyone. It is Kate's actions we are discussing not Fiona's. if you want to question Fiona's actions can I suggest you open another thread.
Fiona Payne's actions are relevant as she was with Kate and with the children. She is a trained anesthetist also. She did not apparently see the need to rush the children to hospital, but you who weren't there and aren't a trained anesthetist think they should have been. How does that work then? How is it that YOU are a better judge of what should and shouldn't have been done than the doctors who were actually there at the time?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 03:51:56 PM
Her friend was by her side yet didn't notice. Her husband didn't notice either. Yet, strangely, almost to a man the people in the apartment that night heard Kate asking for a priest. Selective hearing indeed.
Cite for her friend and her husband "not noticing" please.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 03:54:58 PM
Fiona Payne's actions are relevant as she was with Kate and with the children. She is a trained anesthetist also. She did not apparently see the need to rush the children to hospital, but you who weren't there and aren't a trained anesthetist think they should have been. How does that work then? How is it that YOU are a better judge of what should and shouldn't have been done than the doctors who were actually there at the time?
She probably didn't see the need as Kate was checking them and apparently didn't see the need. Who was she to second guess the twins own mother?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 04:00:25 PM
Hardly what? You think the statements are an accurate record of ever word the witnesses said do you?
Feel free to thrash this point as much as you wish.
Sedation was important for two key reasons.
First was the health of the twins. Presumably when Kate left them alone with a supposed abductor around in order to inform the T9 that Madeleine was gone, neither an abductor or sedation was uppermost in her mind. Because if either was, then I would class that as a major fail.
Second was the evidence. Failing to inform the PJ about possible sedation would also be a major fail, assuming it was suspected. That would have been a key piece of evidence, vital in the police quest. Yet this does not enter the statements of the T9 contemporaneous to Madeleine's disappearance.
Please don't trot out the 'well it may be that not everything was recorded' tripe. That would be libelling the PJ officers doing the interviews and the interpreters.
Not even Kate claims she raised it with the Portuguese authorities. Thus claims otherwise are pure speculation. And we know what happens to pure speculation on this forum.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 04:04:19 PM
Was Fiona Payne a witness to Kate's concern about the children? Yes Did the children's behaviour seem weird to her? Yes Did she, a trained anesthetist, recognise any symptoms in the children that required urgent medical attention? No. Why are people who weren't there, didn't witness the events and aren't trained doctors / anesthetists, better judges of what should and shouldn't have been done with regard the twins? God knows!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 04:08:22 PM
Feel free to thrash this point as much as you wish.
Sedation was important for two key reasons.
First was the health of the twins. Presumably when Kate left them alone with a supposed abductor around in order to inform the T9 that Madeleine was gone, neither an abductor or sedation was uppermost in her mind. Because if either was, then I would class that as a major fail.
Second was the evidence. Failing to inform the PJ about possible sedation would also be a major fail, assuming it was suspected. That would have been a key piece of evidence, vital in the police quest. Yet this does not enter the statements of the T9 contemporaneous to Madeleine's disappearance.
Please don't trot out the 'well it may be that not everything was recorded' tripe. That would be libelling the PJ officers doing the interviews and the interpreters.
Not even Kate claims she raised it with the Portuguese authorities. Thus claims otherwise are pure speculation. And we know what happens to pure speculation on this forum.
Not everything could have been reported if you compare the lengths of the interviews and the length of the statements Kate may well have mentioned it we just don't know
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 04:09:48 PM
Feel free to thrash this point as much as you wish.
Sedation was important for two key reasons.
First was the health of the twins. Presumably when Kate left them alone with a supposed abductor around in order to inform the T9 that Madeleine was gone, neither an abductor or sedation was uppermost in her mind. Because if either was, then I would class that as a major fail.
Second was the evidence. Failing to inform the PJ about possible sedation would also be a major fail, assuming it was suspected. That would have been a key piece of evidence, vital in the police quest. Yet this does not enter the statements of the T9 contemporaneous to Madeleine's disappearance.
Please don't trot out the 'well it may be that not everything was recorded' tripe. That would be libelling the PJ officers doing the interviews and the interpreters.
Not even Kate claims she raised it with the Portuguese authorities. Thus claims otherwise are pure speculation. And we know what happens to pure speculation on this forum.
which of the above instructions in bold would you like me to comply with? Confused of Tunbridge Wells.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 04:15:32 PM
Was Fiona Payne a witness to Kate's concern about the children? Yes Did the children's behaviour seem weird to her? Yes Did she, a trained anesthetist, recognise any symptoms in the children that required urgent medical attention? No. Why are people who weren't there, didn't witness the events and aren't trained doctors / anesthetists, better judges of what should and shouldn't have been done with regard the twins? God knows!
You don't have to be a doctor/anaesthetist to know that if a child is unresponsive with an unknown drug you get it to a hospital as soon as possible. That's simply common sense.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2017, 04:37:37 PM
Merely working in an anesthetics department does not make you an anaesthetist.
Is it usual for the NHS to allow unqualified individuals to practice as registrars in anaesthetics in British hospitals?
Kate Healey worked as a registrar in anaesthesia in Glasgow and later in Leicester after their move there.
Why on earth do you feel the need to destroy and belittle this couple's characters as well as denying them professional qualifications for which they have worked and earned and to which they are entirely entitled?
You have posted misinformation on the thread, please amend it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 04:38:00 PM
You don't have to be a doctor/anaesthetist to know that if a child is unresponsive with an unknown drug you get it to a hospital as soon as possible. That's simply common sense.
And you were there and saw that the twins were unresponsive and needed urgent medical care were you?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 04:40:55 PM
Is it usual for the NHS to allow unqualified individuals to practice as registrars in anaesthetics in British hospitals?
Kate Healey worked as a registrar in anaesthesia in Glasgow and later in Leicester after their move there.
Why on earth do you feel the need to destroy and belittle this couple's characters as well as denying them professional qualifications for which they have worked and earned and to which they are entirely entitled?
You have posted misinformation on the thread, please amend it.
A Registrar is a hospital junior doctor grade, not a qualification.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 08, 2017, 04:42:36 PM
You don't have to be a doctor/anaesthetist to know that if a child is unresponsive with an unknown drug you get it to a hospital as soon as possible. That's simply common sense.
Unresponsive, you know that as fact do you? They were sleeping heavily by the look of it and if they rolled over they were not unresponsive.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 04:42:57 PM
If Kate had furnished Fiona with a reason for her checking I'm sure Fiona would have mentioned it or as Fiona was at Kate's side most of the night she would have known why it was suspected that the twins were perhaps less responsive than she thought they should have been as her friend had just, allegedly, told the police officers present that she suspected her children had been sedated. The fact that Fiona found it 'weird' yet fails to qualify this with the suspected reason suggests Kate never voiced her concerns to, or in, Fiona's presence.
So biased that's not funny.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 04:45:13 PM
And you were there and saw that the twins were unresponsive and needed urgent medical care were you?
No I wasn't there but we have the statements of at least 5 witnesses who were and they all say the twins were unresponsive. Kate also says she raised her concerns with regard to the unresponsiveness of the twins with police officers. Would she have done that, or even claim to have done it, if the unresponsiveness of the twins wasn't marked?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 04:45:59 PM
No I wasn't there but we have the statements of at least 5 witnesses who were and they all say the twins were unresponsive. Kate also says she raised her concerns with regard to the unresponsiveness of the twins with police officers. Would she have done that, or even claim to have done it, if the unresponsiveness of the twins wasn't marked?
Cites please for the above in bold. Given that you have just informed us that "you don't have to be a doctor/anaesthetist to know that if a child is unresponsive with an unknown drug you get it to a hospital as soon as possible" why did not one of these at least five witnesses call an ambulance straight away?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 04:49:55 PM
Actions such as placing a hand on the backs of children to check for signs of life? Facts such as Madeleine reporting that her siblings cried the night before? Kate was interviewed on 8th August, she says;
Was there anything else I wanted to add? Anything else unusual that had occurred that night? Of course there wasn’t. If there had been I would have told them on 3 May. I’d recounted absolutely everything and anything – more than they wanted or needed to know, probably, just in case some triviality I recalled might be significant. How could they think I would hold something back that might help my daughter? [Madeleine]
Everything except the possible sedation of her other children, it seems.
Kate is talking about facts not suspicions.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 04:51:37 PM
Not everything could have been reported if you compare the lengths of the interviews and the length of the statements Kate may well have mentioned it we just don't know
We do, and that is the point.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2017, 04:51:47 PM
Feel free to thrash this point as much as you wish.
Sedation was important for two key reasons.
First was the health of the twins. Presumably when Kate left them alone with a supposed abductor around in order to inform the T9 that Madeleine was gone, neither an abductor or sedation was uppermost in her mind. Because if either was, then I would class that as a major fail.
Second was the evidence. Failing to inform the PJ about possible sedation would also be a major fail, assuming it was suspected. That would have been a key piece of evidence, vital in the police quest. Yet this does not enter the statements of the T9 contemporaneous to Madeleine's disappearance.
Please don't trot out the 'well it may be that not everything was recorded' tripe. That would be libelling the PJ officers doing the interviews and the interpreters.
Not even Kate claims she raised it with the Portuguese authorities. Thus claims otherwise are pure speculation. And we know what happens to pure speculation on this forum.
How many individuals actually knew first hand of any concerns which may have been expressed regarding deeply sleeping children?
Nor did a traumatised mother whose elder daughter was missing have to report anything to officers who were present and who observed the deeply sleeping children. What exactly was their function ... apart from observing "praying Arabs"?
If no action was taken I think that after sixty five pages of discourse ... it might be safely assumed that no action was necessary as far as the well being of the children was concerned. A different story regarding the conduct of the investigation, though. Bearing in mind that responsibility lay entirely with the investigators and not the victims.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 04:53:20 PM
Cites please for the above in bold. Given that you have just informed us that "you don't have to be a doctor/anaesthetist to know that if a child is unresponsive with an unknown drug you get it to a hospital as soon as possible" why did not one of these at least five witnesses call an ambulance straight away?
Cites? They are liberally littered throughout this thread. Why was an ambulance not called? Haven't a clue but it should have been.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 04:56:41 PM
which of the above instructions in bold would you like me to comply with? Confused of Tunbridge Wells.
I don't have any issue with anyone contributing on this topic. Contribution is good and is to be encouraged, IMO.
But pure speculation, without evidence - that is out.
Libelling a number of PJ inspectors, and translators - each of whom can be identified by name from the statements - that is out.
If Alice is correct, salmon fishing starts on the 17th. There is NO open hunting season on Portuguese authorities. Evidence-based claims are fine. The rest is NOT.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 05:02:09 PM
How many individuals actually knew first hand of any concerns which may have been expressed regarding deeply sleeping children?
Nor did a traumatised mother whose elder daughter was missing have to report anything to officers who were present and who observed the deeply sleeping children. What exactly was their function ... apart from observing "praying Arabs"?
If no action was taken I think that after sixty five pages of discourse ... it might be safely assumed that no action was necessary as far as the well being of the children was concerned. A different story regarding the conduct of the investigation, though. Bearing in mind that responsibility lay entirely with the investigators and not the victims.
The victim was Madeleine.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 05:03:19 PM
Is it usual for the NHS to allow unqualified individuals to practice as registrars in anaesthetics in British hospitals?
Kate Healey worked as a registrar in anaesthesia in Glasgow and later in Leicester after their move there.
Why on earth do you feel the need to destroy and belittle this couple's characters as well as denying them professional qualifications for which they have worked and earned and to which they are entirely entitled?
You have posted misinformation on the thread, please amend it.
No I will not.
What I quoted came from the General Medical Council.
FACT.
Kate McCann is not a specialist in Anaesthetics.
FACT.
Fiona Payne became one in 2010.
FACT.
If you are saying otherwise, CITE your source(s).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 05:04:37 PM
A Registrar is a hospital junior doctor grade, not a qualification.
Specialist Registrar Anaesthesia
Sector: Doctor Jobs Region: London - North Country: England Specialist Registrar in Anaesthesia- £43,434 - £47,175 plus banding per annum annual leave, pension, study leave, CPD. Medacs Healthcare is currently recruiting Specialist Registrars in Anaesthesia. The position is within a large NHS trust based in London. Location: London Benefits: -â-€-¢£43,434-£47,175 annual salary (48 hours per week) -â-€-¢Fixed term 12 month Contracts available, all ext...
Specialist Registrar Anaesthesia
Sector: Doctor Jobs Region: London - North Country: England Specialist Registrar in Anaesthesia- £43,434 - £47,175 plus banding per annum + annual leave, pension, study leave, CPD. Medacs Healthcare is currently recruiting Specialist Registrars in Anaesthesia. The position is within a large NHS trust based in London. Location: London Benefits: -£43,434-£47,175 annual salary (48 hours per week) -Fixed term 12 month Contracts available, all extendable or to...
1 Month Anaesthetics Registrar Locum
Sector: Doctor Jobs Region: Kent Country: England Doctors / Anaesthetics / SPR / Middle Grade Staff Grade Maidstone We require an experienced locum Anaesthetics (SPR) doctor based at a hospital within London. To be successful for this medical job, you are required to have a minimum of 6 months UK NHS experience. This job is available as soon as you are, and shall run until the 15th of December. This position will also include on calls as well as...
Seems there are another seventy six jobs on this site for "hospital junior doctor grade".
It really is very sad that there are those who cannot bear to give the McCanns credit where credit is due particularly as far as their professional qualifications are concerned.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 05:08:39 PM
Her friend was by her side yet didn't notice. Her husband didn't notice either. Yet, strangely, almost to a man the people in the apartment that night heard Kate asking for a priest. Selective hearing indeed.
You've hit the nail on the head for a change.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
How many individuals actually knew first hand of any concerns which may have been expressed regarding deeply sleeping children?
Nor did a traumatised mother whose elder daughter was missing have to report anything to officers who were present and who observed the deeply sleeping children. What exactly was their function ... apart from observing "praying Arabs"?
If no action was taken I think that after sixty five pages of discourse ... it might be safely assumed that no action was necessary as far as the well being of the children was concerned. A different story regarding the conduct of the investigation, though. Bearing in mind that responsibility lay entirely with the investigators and not the victims.
Were you there ?
You don't know if the other two children were asleep , or unconscious because of sedation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 05:09:53 PM
That's my point, you don't know what Fiona observed, you are just jumping to conclusions.
We do know what Fiona observed because she told us and not in a translated interview where there was room for interpretation but in her rogatory statement, given in English. It is you who are trying to put words into her mouth.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 05:59:47 PM
We do know what Fiona observed because she told us and not in a translated interview where there was room for interpretation but in her rogatory statement, given in English. It is you who are trying to put words into her mouth.
That is her version of the events 1 year later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 06:11:00 PM
We do know what Fiona observed because she told us and not in a translated interview where there was room for interpretation but in her rogatory statement, given in English. It is you who are trying to put words into her mouth.
Did Fiona say the twins were completely immobile and unresponsive all night long?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 06:14:36 PM
However two of the other victims of the crime ... Madeleine's siblings ... were apparently ignored by the police investigators both regarding their personal welfare and their importance as possible vessels carrying evidence.
There is no record of any forensic investigation concerning their persons, the cots they slept in or the bedding on which they slept. Indeed, they were carried from the scene of the crime wrapped in bedding which could have been evidence.
In the meantime the other victims ... unless you wish to argue the point about who exactly are the victims of such a crime ... have somehow been metamorphosed into investigators responsible for the crimes scene, from as some would have it,
sealing off the crime scene
to ensure that proper diligence regarding the observance of collecting forensic evidence is observed
The police do the investigating. I do not believe that even Amaral's theory stretched as far as suggesting any suspected drugging of the twins should have been left to their parents to instigate investigating ... do correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 06:16:58 PM
However two of the other victims of the crime ... Madeleine's siblings ... were apparently ignored by the police investigators both regarding their personal welfare and their importance as possible vessels carrying evidence.
There is no record of any forensic investigation concerning their persons, the cots they slept in or the bedding on which they slept. Indeed, they were carried from the scene of the crime wrapped in bedding which could have been evidence.
In the meantime the other victims ... unless you wish to argue the point about who exactly are the victims of such a crime ... have somehow been metamorphosed into investigators responsible for the crimes scene, from as some would have it,
sealing off the crime scene
to ensure that proper diligence regarding the observance of collecting forensic evidence is observed
The police do the investigating. I do not believe that even Amaral's theory stretched as far as suggesting any suspected drugging of the twins should have been left to their parents to instigate investigating ... do correct me if I am wrong.
What actual crime have you in mind ? Madeleine has disappeared, cause as yet unknown.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 06:18:00 PM
Start at the beginning of this thread and work through it. There's a wealth of evidence that people on here believe the McCanns behaved criminally. Kate McCann has repeatedly been chastised for believing her kids to be sedated and doing nothing to save them - that's criminal isn't it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 06:20:43 PM
However two of the other victims of the crime ... Madeleine's siblings ... were apparently ignored by the police investigators both regarding their personal welfare and their importance as possible vessels carrying evidence.
There is no record of any forensic investigation concerning their persons, the cots they slept in or the bedding on which they slept. Indeed, they were carried from the scene of the crime wrapped in bedding which could have been evidence.
In the meantime the other victims ... unless you wish to argue the point about who exactly are the victims of such a crime ... have somehow been metamorphosed into investigators responsible for the crimes scene, from as some would have it,
sealing off the crime scene
to ensure that proper diligence regarding the observance of collecting forensic evidence is observed
The police do the investigating. I do not believe that even Amaral's theory stretched as far as suggesting any suspected drugging of the twins should have been left to their parents to instigate investigating ... do correct me if I am wrong.
The Lisbon forensic team tested whether anaesthetic had been used on the victim, aka Madeleine.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 06:25:09 PM
You don't know if the other two children were asleep , or unconscious because of sedation.
Please don't be silly ... of course I was not there. However you have made your post on page sixty seven of a discussion concerning Madeleine's siblings and their deep sleep. I think it would be safe to conclude that two anaesthetists between them reached their own conclusions.
However the responsibility for that should not have been theirs ... the police investigators failed in their responsibility to cover all the bases particularly the independent medical welfare of the children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 08, 2017, 06:26:50 PM
Never say never. A body might yet turn up and reveal all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 06:27:38 PM
Please don't be silly ... of course I was not there. However you have made your post on page sixty seven of a discussion concerning Madeleine's siblings and their deep sleep. I think it would be safe to conclude that two anaesthetists between them reached their own conclusions.
However the responsibility for that should not have been theirs ... the police investigators failed in their responsibility to cover all the bases particularly the independent medical welfare of the children.
You really don't pay attention , do you.
If you had bothered to check, I have repeatedly criticised the police in that respect as well.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 08, 2017, 06:38:13 PM
Start at the beginning of this thread and work through it. There's a wealth of evidence that people on here believe the McCanns behaved criminally. Kate McCann has repeatedly been chastised for believing her kids to be sedated and doing nothing to save them - that's criminal isn't it?
Reprehensible not criminal.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2017, 06:41:54 PM
If you had bothered to check, I have repeatedly criticised the police in that respect as well.
You mean that in a thread presently consisting of sixty nine pages you have continually criticised the Portuguese police lack of initial diligence in checking that Madeleine's siblings had not been drugged?
Not only must I not have been paying attention I must just not have bothered reading your posts with the due respect they deserve because I have missed all the ones criticising the investigators for not investigating the drug situation under discussion regarding the twins.
I'm sure you will be able to point me in the right direction, though. You will of course be able to provide a cite.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 06:57:26 PM
Did Fiona say the twins were completely immobile and unresponsive all night long?
Unless you know Fiona and can ask that question the answer is unknowable. What we do know however is that neither she nor Kate say in any statement that the twins woke at any time. You can speculate that they may have but that doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 06:59:05 PM
Please specify what forensic tests were carried out by the Lisbon forensic team and what the results if any were.
Please read the PJ Files on what the Lisbon team did on 4 May 2007.
They found no evidence of anaesthetics.
They did not have to hand the behaviour of the twins overnight, or an alleged crying incident. I cannot see why they would have found any differently if they had known of either. Kate did not report any trace of anaesthetic around the time of her alarm, and we are to believe she was first on the scene. Unless Matthew Oldfield not only failed on a visual check, but also on a sense of smell, and he was the first.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 08, 2017, 07:00:56 PM
You mean that in a thread presently consisting of sixty nine pages you have continually criticised the Portuguese police lack of initial diligence in checking that Madeleine's siblings had not been drugged?
Not only must I not have been paying attention I must just not have bothered reading your posts with the due respect they deserve because I have missed all the ones criticising the investigators for not investigating the drug situation under discussion regarding the twins.
I'm sure you will be able to point me in the right direction, though. You will of course be able to provide a cite.
Brietta do you really believe that even if the police were truly incompetent and displayed a shocking disregard for the twins wellbeing that that excuses both McCanns, who admit they were very concerned that the twins had been sedated, for also doing nothing?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 07:01:21 PM
You mean that in a thread presently consisting of sixty nine pages you have continually criticised the Portuguese police lack of initial diligence in checking that Madeleine's siblings had not been drugged?
Not only must I not have been paying attention I must just not have bothered reading your posts with the due respect they deserve because I have missed all the ones criticising the investigators for not investigating the drug situation under discussion regarding the twins.
I'm sure you will be able to point me in the right direction, though. You will of course be able to provide a cite.
Well, as that is already on this thread, there is no need to.
I suggest you read through my posts.
So, again, if you can't read, the police should have ensured the other two children were tested, as a matter of course.
Your deflection from the Mccann's is noted.
Try post 896, page 60, on this thread. 8)--))
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 07:10:27 PM
Brietta do you really believe that even if the police were truly incompetent and displayed a shocking disregard for the twins wellbeing that that excuses both McCanns, who admit they were very concerned that the twins had been sedated, for also doing nothing?
They checked the kids and they got through OK but on the 5th the McCanns raised the issue with the British Liaison officers. There is no question that the issue was raised in time for the twins to be properly checked.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 08, 2017, 07:11:01 PM
Well, as that is already on this thread, there is no need to.
I suggest you read through my posts.
So, again, if you can't read, the police should have ensured the other two children were tested, as a matter of course.
Your deflection from the Mccann's is noted.
Try post 896, page 60, on this thread. 8)--))
Are we sure that in Portugal the police can "lift" a minor and have tests carried out without parental and /or court permissions ? That's my second time of asking this question with no response from any of the gurus to date. I guess they don't know which then leaves some of the arguments a flat tire.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 08, 2017, 07:14:17 PM
Are we sure that in Portugal the police can "lift" a minor and have tests carried out without parental and /or court permissions ? That's my second time of asking this question with no response from any of the gurus to date. I guess they don't know which then leaves some of the arguments a flat tire.... ?{)(**
Good point.
We would need someone who knows Portuguese Law.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 07:31:29 PM
Never say never. A body might yet turn up and reveal all.
How will a body turning up reveal whether or not the twins were sedated?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 08, 2017, 07:32:24 PM
As people are banging on about what the cops should and should not have done I presumed they had researched the matter themselves. As an answer has not been forthcoming I presume: 1. They researched but can't be arsed to respond. 2. They did not research and were trapping off in ignorance*. Faites vos jeux but I know where my purse is going.
*the wider sense of the word you understand before we are inundated with faux outrage and accusations of insulting behaviour.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 07:32:52 PM
Unless you know Fiona and can ask that question the answer is unknowable. What we do know however is that neither she nor Kate say in any statement that the twins woke at any time. You can speculate that they may have but that doesn't make it so.
So you agree then. It's entirely possible the twins gave signs at some point that night that they were not in a state on unresponsive sedation requiring immediate medical attention and that therefore the sensible thing for you and I to do as we were not there is to give the people who were there and who made the decisions they did the benefit of the doubt. Oops, sorry that was a rambling post full of hogwash for you to ridicule!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 07:36:32 PM
Please read the PJ Files on what the Lisbon team did on 4 May 2007.
They found no evidence of anaesthetics.
They did not have to hand the behaviour of the twins overnight, or an alleged crying incident. I cannot see why they would have found any differently if they had known of either. Kate did not report any trace of anaesthetic around the time of her alarm, and we are to believe she was first on the scene. Unless Matthew Oldfield not only failed on a visual check, but also on a sense of smell, and he was the first.
Are you referring to anaesthetics or sedatives
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 08, 2017, 07:36:43 PM
So you agree then. It's entirely possible the twins gave signs at some point that night that they were not in a state on unresponsive sedation requiring immediate medical attention and that therefore the sensible thing for you and I to do as we were not there is to give the people who were there and who made the decisions they did the benefit of the doubt. Oops, sorry that was a rambling post full of hogwash for you to ridicule!
Anything is possible but as not one eye witness claims that the twins woke at anytime I think it's perfectly logical to conclude that they didn't.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 08, 2017, 07:54:01 PM
Please read the PJ Files on what the Lisbon team did on 4 May 2007.
They found no evidence of anaesthetics.
They did not have to hand the behaviour of the twins overnight, or an alleged crying incident. I cannot see why they would have found any differently if they had known of either. Kate did not report any trace of anaesthetic around the time of her alarm, and we are to believe she was first on the scene. Unless Matthew Oldfield not only failed on a visual check, but also on a sense of smell, and he was the first.
I have not seen any mention of anaesthetics Could you elucidate or are you just confused
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 08:00:51 PM
You claimed the Lisbon test was for anaesthetics It wasn't was it That's why you couldn't provide the cite Do you have a cite for the twins being unresponsive The thread is about sedatives No one has raised the question of anaesthetics
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:09:10 PM
You claimed the Lisbon test was for anaesthetics It wasn't was it That's why you couldn't provide the cite Do you have a cite for the twins being unresponsive The thread is about sedatives No one has raised the question of anaesthetics
If you have a problem with drugged v gassed v anaesthetics, then it is your problem.
Either read the 4 May 2007 report or don't. That is not my problem.
If you want to quibble over what unresponsive means in English, go for it. If, of course, that is the best you can do.
Drugged. Gassed. Anaesthetics. Unresponsive. 65 pages and on-going. By the way, the thread title is DRUGGED not SEDATIVES.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:22:01 PM
If you have a problem with drugged v gassed v anaesthetics, then it is your problem.
Either read the 4 May 2007 report or don't. That is not my problem.
If you want to quibble over what unresponsive means in English, go for it. If, of course, that is the best you can do.
Drugged. Gassed. Anaesthetics. Unresponsive. 65 pages and on-going. By the way, the thread title is DRUGGED not SEDATIVES.
You still haven't provided a link to this test for anaesthetics I would say you can't Unresponsive here is being used in its medical sense and there is no quibbling about its meaning The question boa were the twins sedated not anaethetised
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 08:22:20 PM
Please don't be silly ... of course I was not there. However you have made your post on page sixty seven of a discussion concerning Madeleine's siblings and their deep sleep. I think it would be safe to conclude that two anaesthetists between them reached their own conclusions.
However the responsibility for that should not have been theirs ... the police investigators failed in their responsibility to cover all the bases particularly the independent medical welfare of the children.
Kate McCann says she feared her children had been sedated because their sleep seemed 'unnatural'. She checked for signs of life. Months later she's saying she believed 'the kidnapper' had drugged them. She says she told the GNR officers of her fears, but no-one mentions her doing that.
When the PJ arrived their first concern was to clear the apartment of people to preserve the scene. It was the ideal opportunity to tell them of her fears, but she didn't. How anyone expects them to have known without being told escapes me. I don't think it's usual for any police force to start testing infants for sedation unless there's some reason to suspect they have been drugged.
If anyone can explain why the PJ should have suspected to find drugged children I would be interested to hear it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
Patients who are sedated are responsive
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 08:30:39 PM
Cite your evidence to support that statement.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
The thought that the twins were unresponsive and Kate did nothing is absurd
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 08:34:41 PM
Have you noticed that the word in the thread title is 'drugged'? We are 65 pages into drugged, anaesthetics, gassed and other topics, such as unresponsive twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:38:01 PM
I'll see if I can find something tomorrow Obviously you know nothing about it The whole point of sedation is that the patient stays responsive If not the patient is oversedated
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:40:29 PM
Have you noticed that the word in the thread title is 'drugged'? We are 65 pages into drugged, anaesthetics, gassed and other topics, such as unresponsive twins.
Kate never used the word drugged Nor unresponsive And you still have failed to provide the cite I would say it doesn't exist
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 08:43:13 PM
You made the statement.
Now, support or withdraw it.
Also, of course, any administered drugs, anesthetics, sedatives's effects, will depend on the dosage level.
Giving a bland , people will respond, is simply ludicrous.
So why not give a cite now ?
Or did you simply type your statement without the necessary research or actual knowledge ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:47:21 PM
Also, of course, any administered drugs, anesthetics, sedatives's effects, will depend on the dosage level.
Giving a bland , people will respond, is simply ludicrous.
So why not give a cite now ?
Or did you simply type your statement without the necessary research or actual knowledge ?
40 years of administering sedation I'm posting on my phone Still jet lagged after my wonderful Christmas new year break Sedation is now known as conscious sedation and patients should be responsive at all times
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 08:48:30 PM
Kate never used the word drugged Nor unresponsive And you still have failed to provide the cite I would say it doesn't exist
Personally, I am not limited to the words used by Kate. Nor are other forum members. It is not for me to say whether you are or not, but please do not try to limit forum members to Kate's words of choice.
Drugged = thread title. Gassed. From memory, Alfie first raised that idea then seemingly wished it had not been raised. Anaesthetics. Just what were Kate and Jane? Has the thread got all of that wrong? Unresponsive. A simple English word.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 08:50:34 PM
Are you talking about just dentistry ?
Since that has no relevance to this case.
Or are you suggesting that your favoured 'abductor'was a dentist ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:51:13 PM
So what's the mortality rate from sedatives The twins were in no danger
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 08:52:43 PM
The following is taken from the American guidelines which are the basis for international guidelines
Minimal Sedation (Anxiolysis) is a drug-induced state during which patients respond normally to verbal commands. Although cognitive function and physical coordination may be impaired, airway reflexes, and ventilatory and cardiovascular functions are unaffected.
Moderate Sedation/Analgesia (“Conscious Sedationâ€) is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients respond purposefully to verbal commands, either alone or accompanied by light tactile stimulation. Reflex withdrawal from a painful stimulus is NOT considered a purposeful response. No interventions are required to maintain a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation is adequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
Deep Sedation/Analgesia is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients cannot be easily aroused but respond purposefully following repeated or painful stimulation. The ability to independently maintain ventilatory function may be impaired. Patients may require assistance in maintaining a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation may be inadequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 09:00:48 PM
Unfortunately, I can't reproduce the table here, but people can see it for themselves
The following is taken from the American guidelines which are the basis for international guidelines
Minimal Sedation (Anxiolysis) is a drug-induced state during which patients respond normally to verbal commands. Although cognitive function and physical coordination may be impaired, airway reflexes, and ventilatory and cardiovascular functions are unaffected.
Moderate Sedation/Analgesia (“Conscious Sedationâ€) is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients respond purposefully to verbal commands, either alone or accompanied by light tactile stimulation. Reflex withdrawal from a painful stimulus is NOT considered a purposeful response. No interventions are required to maintain a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation is adequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
Deep Sedation/Analgesia is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients cannot be easily aroused but respond purposefully following repeated or painful stimulation. The ability to independently maintain ventilatory function may be impaired. Patients may require assistance in maintaining a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation may be inadequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
Thanks for the cite It confirms that sedated patients are responsive
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 09:04:51 PM
Define responsive.
READ AGAIN.
Deep Sedation/Analgesia is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients cannot be easily aroused but respond purposefully following repeated or painful stimulation. The ability to independently maintain ventilatory function may be impaired. Patients may require assistance in maintaining a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation may be inadequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
That is an induced response, not of the patients initiation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 09:05:52 PM
Personally, I am not limited to the words used by Kate. Nor are other forum members. It is not for me to say whether you are or not, but please do not try to limit forum members to Kate's words of choice.
Drugged = thread title. Gassed. From memory, Alfie first raised that idea then seemingly wished it had not been raised. Anaesthetics. Just what were Kate and Jane? Has the thread got all of that wrong? Unresponsive. A simple English word.
Cite for me wishing gassed had not been raised or withdraw your claim.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 09:10:21 PM
Kate McCann says she feared her children had been sedated because their sleep seemed 'unnatural'. She checked for signs of life. Months later she's saying she believed 'the kidnapper' had drugged them. She says she told the GNR officers of her fears, but no-one mentions her doing that.
When the PJ arrived their first concern was to clear the apartment of people to preserve the scene. It was the ideal opportunity to tell them of her fears, but she didn't. How anyone expects them to have known without being told escapes me. I don't think it's usual for any police force to start testing infants for sedation unless there's some reason to suspect they have been drugged.
If anyone can explain why the PJ should have suspected to find drugged children I would be interested to hear it.
If the GNR officers had not passed on Kate's concerns to anyone then it is possible that the PJ did not know about them. That could explain why there was no action or feedback from the PJ at the time and would explain why the FLO's were asked on the 5th to bring the subject up with them again.
If you really think that on first meeting the PJ officers Kate would have relegated her frantic fear regarding Madeleine's disappearance to below that of her concern re her sleeping twins, then I am gobsmacked. Her whole concentration on the PJ's arrival would be 100% on what she believed was Madeleine's abduction and as far as she knew she had already informed the police of her concerns anyway. Remember that at that stage she had no idea that the GNR were not 'the police' that she assumed they were.
IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 10:06:28 PM
Alfie, I was careful enough to put in 'seemingly wished' therefore making it IMO.
If you enjoyed or were OK with the fun and games re gassing, fine. I did not.
I didn't and don't enjoy being deliberately misunderstood but I have no regrets about mentioning gassing, in fact I subsequently posted a link to a so-called gassing robbery in southern Spain which happened just a few months before Madeleine disappeared, reinforcing my view that such events may well have been fresh in Kate's mind at the time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 10:24:13 PM
I didn't and don't enjoy being deliberately misunderstood but I have no regrets about mentioning gassing, in fact I subsequently posted a link to a so-called gassing robbery in southern Spain which happened just a few months before Madeleine disappeared, reinforcing my view that such events may well have been fresh in Kate's mind at the time.
I realise that you did as you say and from memory I gave thanks for your links and your effort. Personally, I thought it was an extended distraction, not of your making, IMO.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 08, 2017, 10:30:42 PM
I realise that you did as you say and from memory I gave thanks for your links and your effort. Personally, I thought it was an extended distraction, not of your making, IMO.
Actually no you didn't, but never mind - I didn't expect thanks for my link or effort, least of all from yourself. My post (on page 47 of this thread was seemingly ignored by all @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 08, 2017, 10:40:50 PM
Actually no you didn't, but never mind - I didn't expect thanks for my link or effort, least of all from yourself. My post (on page 47 of this thread was seemingly ignored by all @)(++(*
How odd, Alfie. Page 47, post 701 to be precise, is where you quote me as thanking you for your info re the gassing topic turning up on the Richard and Judy show prior to Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 11:01:58 PM
If the GNR officers had not passed on Kate's concerns to anyone then it is possible that the PJ did not know about them. That could explain why there was no action or feedback from the PJ at the time and would explain why the FLO's were asked on the 5th to bring the subject up with them again.
If you really think that on first meeting the PJ officers Kate would have delegated her frantic fear regarding Madeleine's disappearance to below that of her concern re her sleeping twins, then I am gobsmacked. Her whole concentration on the PJ's arrival would be 100% on what she believed was Madeleine's abduction and as far as she knew she had already informed the police of her concerns anyway. Remember that at that stage she had no idea that the GNR were not 'the police' that she assumed they were.
IMO
The only person who says the GNR were informed is Kate, so that's difficult to verify. As far as I know she didn't tell anyone she had told them until she wrote it in her book years later. We know that her question to the FLO's didn't concern the twins, only Madeleine, so they weren't told.
I'm gobsmacked that you think she would not be equally worried about all her children. As far as she was concerned two of her precious children were sleeping unnaturally and she checked them for signs of life. She thought they may have been given an unknown dose of an unknown substance by a criminal and she didn't scream repeatedly for them to have the best medical assessment, monitoring and resuscitation equipment available in case their condition suddenly worsened? Even though she should must known that all that is done as routine when children are sedated in hospital with careful dosages of suitable substances administered by qualified doctors?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 11:07:36 PM
The words "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum" come to mind. One can understand as well when you read the post above by G-unit.
"It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realise how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all.” Thanks to Peter Mac for the text. http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.nz/2016/08/chapter-5-sedation.html
The words "but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all." Is that Kate saying that even with the presence of Silvia Batista acting as an interpreter there was still a language barrier? Now that might explain why Kate's request for drug testing the twins did not get through.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 08, 2017, 11:59:35 PM
The words "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum" come to mind. One can understand as well when you read the post above by G-unit.
"It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realise how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all.” Thanks to Peter Mac for the text. http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.nz/2016/08/chapter-5-sedation.html
The words "but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all." Is that Kate saying that even with the presence of Silvia Batista acting as an interpreter there was still a language barrier? Now that might explain why Kate's request for drug testing the twins did not get through.
Putting the boot into the Portuguese police from the off, I see. Precious time had already passed because no-one knows what time the child disappeared and the police weren't called promptly. I'm surprised the Portuguese haven't been criticised for not arriving before they were called; everything else seems to be their fault.
What request for drug testing? I haven't seen any evidence that drug testing was requested.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 12:16:39 AM
Putting the boot into the Portuguese police from the off, I see. Precious time had already passed because no-one knows what time the child disappeared and the police weren't called promptly. I'm surprised the Portuguese haven't been criticised for not arriving before they were called; everything else seems to be their fault.
What request for drug testing? I haven't seen any evidence that drug testing was requested.
Ditto on the bolded part. 73 pages in and no evidence that drug testing was requested.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 12:37:38 AM
I had written about it. It is documented on Page 99 of Madeleine by Kate. Same page as introducing Silvia Batista.
Kindly check your references. Unless you have an odd copy of 'madeleine' page 99 is about Alan Pike. Sorry, but I'm not searching for where Silvia got introduced in your copy.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 09, 2017, 01:23:13 AM
The only person who says the GNR were informed is Kate, so that's difficult to verify. As far as I know she didn't tell anyone she had told them until she wrote it in her book years later. We know that her question to the FLO's didn't concern the twins, only Madeleine, so they weren't told.
I'm gobsmacked that you think she would not be equally worried about all her children. As far as she was concerned two of her precious children were sleeping unnaturally and she checked them for signs of life. She thought they may have been given an unknown dose of an unknown substance by a criminal and she didn't scream repeatedly for them to have the best medical assessment, monitoring and resuscitation equipment available in case their condition suddenly worsened? Even though she should must known that all that is done as routine when children are sedated in hospital with careful dosages of suitable substances administered by qualified doctors?
Well we shall have to agree to disagree. Her daughter had disappeared - fact. Her twins had not disappeared and her concern was not that they had been sedated but that they may have been sedated. If you can't see the massive difference between those two vastly different scenarios then I am surprised.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 09, 2017, 01:26:18 AM
Kindly check your references. Unless you have an odd copy of 'madeleine' page 99 is about Alan Pike. Sorry, but I'm not searching for where Silvia got introduced in your copy.
Pages 75-76 of the hardback copy.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 01:31:07 AM
Mine was the paperback "revised and updated version". Thanks Misty. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg371978#msg371978 where the text appears in this thread. "According to Kate;
I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated [Madeleine]
That was to the GNR officers 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'.
She does not say she told the PJ when they arrived later."
But now we have an additional claim of an apparent translation problem when Silvia was supposedly present. So as I had anticipated the problem is with the transference of the message from Kate to Silvia to the GNR back to Silvia back to Kate. Kate may have thought her message was relayed properly but it wasn't. So on the 5th she brought it up again, but this time the question seems to only mention Madeleine. Another interpretation problem maybe.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 01:55:09 AM
Thanks for this. It cuts it down a lot, for which I am truly grateful.
"We tried to explain what had happened. David reported his concerns about roadblocks and border notification and I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated. A lady called Silvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation."
From p76 in my copy of 'madeleine'.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 06:50:13 AM
Deep Sedation/Analgesia is a drug-induced depression of consciousness during which patients cannot be easily aroused but respond purposefully following repeated or painful stimulation. The ability to independently maintain ventilatory function may be impaired. Patients may require assistance in maintaining a patent airway, and spontaneous ventilation may be inadequate. Cardiovascular function is usually maintained.
That is an induced response, not of the patients initiation.
If it was at the patients initiation it would not be a response Response to verbal instruction response to touch Sedation is not general anaesthesia
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:01:31 AM
That plus "but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing". Faced with 2 kids needing attention, communication problems and Madeleine missing no wonder she was a bit rattled but considering how well she has remembered the detail, I don't think she had lost it, but it was more other's concerns for Kate rather than that she was out of control, even though she admits to moments of despair.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 08:18:19 AM
How odd, Alfie. Page 47, post 701 to be precise, is where you quote me as thanking you for your info re the gassing topic turning up on the Richard and Judy show prior to Madeleine's disappearance.
I was referring to the news story which I posted in post 701 which was ignored, but yes you did thank me before that and I am forever grateful for that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 08:21:23 AM
The only person who says the GNR were informed is Kate, so that's difficult to verify. As far as I know she didn't tell anyone she had told them until she wrote it in her book years later. We know that her question to the FLO's didn't concern the twins, only Madeleine, so they weren't told.
I'm gobsmacked that you think she would not be equally worried about all her children. As far as she was concerned two of her precious children were sleeping unnaturally and she checked them for signs of life. She thought they may have been given an unknown dose of an unknown substance by a criminal and she didn't scream repeatedly for them to have the best medical assessment, monitoring and resuscitation equipment available in case their condition suddenly worsened? Even though she should must known that all that is done as routine when children are sedated in hospital with careful dosages of suitable substances administered by qualified doctors?
Based on your admonishment above one can only conclude that you believe Kate McCann is an uncaring if not downright evil monster. Is there any other explanation for this "gobsmacking" behaviour of hers that you can think of?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2017, 09:10:01 AM
Mine was the paperback "revised and updated version". Thanks Misty. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg371978#msg371978 where the text appears in this thread. "According to Kate;
I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated [Madeleine]
That was to the GNR officers 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'.
She does not say she told the PJ when they arrived later."
But now we have an additional claim of an apparent translation problem when Silvia was supposedly present. So as I had anticipated the problem is with the transference of the message from Kate to Silvia to the GNR back to Silvia back to Kate. Kate may have thought her message was relayed properly but it wasn't. So on the 5th she brought it up again, but this time the question seems to only mention Madeleine. Another interpretation problem maybe.
She didn't ask for her children to be tested for drugs though, which is what you said she did.
It's hard to believe how unlucky this group were according to some. People either ignored them or didn't translate their words. It never seems to occur to people that the fault may lie with them, not with all those being blamed.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 09:27:28 AM
She didn't ask for her children to be tested for drugs though, which is what you said she did.
It's hard to believe how unlucky this group were according to some. People either ignored them or didn't translate their words. It never seems to occur to people that the fault may lie with them, not with all those being blamed.
whose job is it to gather evidence at a potential crime scene? The police or the victims? If it occurred to Kate McCann that her children may have been sedated, and as the papers were regularly filled with stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed, and considering the apparent circumstances, so what exactly was preventing the police in this case from also considering the possibility that the children may have been sedated? Were the police right in your view not to consider this possibility from the off, or run tests on the twins?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2017, 09:42:31 AM
whose job is it to gather evidence at a potential crime scene? The police or the victims? If it occurred to Kate McCann that her children may have been sedated, and as the papers were regularly filled with stories of holiday makers being gassed and robbed, and considering the apparent circumstances, so what exactly was preventing the police in this case from also considering the possibility that the children may have been sedated? Were the police right in your view not to consider this possibility from the off, or run tests on the twins?
Is it usual when a child disappears for police to start testing their siblings for sedation? I've never heard of that. The child could have just wandered off and been found any minute.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 09:44:45 AM
She didn't ask for her children to be tested for drugs though, which is what you said she did.
It's hard to believe how unlucky this group were according to some. People either ignored them or didn't translate their words. It never seems to occur to people that the fault may lie with them, not with all those being blamed.
Did I say that, did I? Well sorry if I did for we now have Kate's words as recorded in her book. "I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated" but quite clearly that is not what was said but that is the summary of what she said. No one can tell the exact words she used to report her "fears that all three children could have been sedated". So maybe she did did ask for her children to be tested for drugs.
Is it usual when a child disappears for police to start testing their siblings for sedation? I've never heard of that. The child could have just wandered off and been found any minute.
It maybe the case when a mother reports her "fears that all three children could have been sedated".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 09:46:19 AM
Did I say that, did I? Well sorry if I did for we now have Kate's words as recorded in her book. "I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated" but quite clearly that is not what was said but that is the summary of what she said. No one can tell the exact words she used to report her "fears that all three children could have been sedated". So maybe she did did ask for her children to be tested for drugs. It maybe the case when a mother reports her "fears that all three children could have been sedated".
....and did not take the surviving children to be tested.
Mmm.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 09:47:53 AM
....and did not take the surviving children to be tested.
Mmm.
Did she have transport? If it happened in a place where Kate knew she was going and could speak the language, and had a means of getting there I'd say she would not have hesitated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
Did she have transport? If it happened in a place where Kate knew she was going and could speak the language, and had a means of getting there I'd say she would not have hesitated.
Did she have transport ?
Taxi or car hire.
The staff at the complex could have assisted. Likewise, many people in Portugal can speak English.
SO BASICALLY, NO EXCUSES.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 10:24:43 AM
Is it usual when a child disappears for police to start testing their siblings for sedation? I've never heard of that. The child could have just wandered off and been found any minute.
I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2017, 10:27:52 AM
Did I say that, did I? Well sorry if I did for we now have Kate's words as recorded in her book. "I reported my fears that all three children could have been sedated" but quite clearly that is not what was said but that is the summary of what she said. No one can tell the exact words she used to report her "fears that all three children could have been sedated". So maybe she did did ask for her children to be tested for drugs. It maybe the case when a mother reports her "fears that all three children could have been sedated".
I do wish you'd stick to evidence. You seem to work on the principle that if it's not there it's OK to make it up. Are you seriously suggesting that three people would ignore a desperate mother worried that her children had been given something which could harm them? Apart from anything else her words would have been given more attention because of her profession.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 09, 2017, 10:34:48 AM
I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?
Especially as one of the Officers says in a statement he noticed the twins didn't wake with all the noise, now why would he say that in his statement?
Something doesn't add up.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 10:36:25 AM
I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?
I would be interested to hear a logical explanation as to why it might occur to them. No-one mentioned the possibility to the PJ on the night. No-one mentioned it in statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 09, 2017, 11:13:29 AM
As to who opened the window, that is debatable. The only identified fingerprints being Kate McCann.
Sleeping, that is quite debatable.
A child missing. The child could have walked out and got lost.
It doesn't matter, the Police should investigate on the evidence they find, I am not trained in Police work, but if I found what the Police found in 5a then I would be thinking, abductor and sedation, investigation should have involved the twins and the bedding of Madeleine's bed and the cots.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 11:17:09 AM
It doesn't matter, the Police should investigate on the evidence they find, I am not trained in Police work, but if I found what the Police found in 5a then I would be thinking, abductor and sedation, investigation should have involved the twins and the bedding of Madeleine's bed and the cots.
Incorrect.
A police investigation would be examining several possibilities.
Yes, the children should have been tested, a failure both by the Police, and by Madeleine's parents.
As Doctor's , they should have realized the importation of that. They had ample opportunity to ensure that happened in the days after, as it did the local police.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2017, 11:40:13 AM
Especially as one of the Officers says in a statement he noticed the twins didn't wake with all the noise, now why would he say that in his statement?
Also Amaral says he knew from the start the McCann's were guilty. So why didn't he keep the bedding so that it could be tested?
Something doesn't add up.
There were at least four people who noticed the children were sleeping despite the noise and lights; Nelson and Roque from the GNR and Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster from the T9. None of them mentioned it at first. The GNR officers mentioned it in October 2007 when they were asked and the others in 2008 during their rog. interviews when they were asked.
I fail to see why it should have been picked up as significant at the time by the GNR.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 09, 2017, 11:42:05 AM
I would be interested to hear a logical explanation as to why it might occur to them. No-one mentioned the possibility to the PJ on the night. No-one mentioned it in statements.
Didn't an officer say he saw the twins sleep through all the noise? Open window, child missing, twins sleeping deeply through all the noise, it didn't ring a bell with trained Officers? No it didn't, they let the twins be taken from their cots along with the bedding, disturbing a crime scene, then Madeleine's bedding wasn't tested either.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 09, 2017, 11:43:35 AM
There were at least four people who noticed the children were sleeping despite the noise and lights; Nelson and Roque from the GNR and Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster from the T9. None of them mentioned it at first. The GNR officers mentioned it in October 2007 when they were asked and the others in 2008 during their rog. interviews when they were asked.
I fail to see why it should have been picked up as significant at the time by the GNR.
I thought everything would have been reported back to Amaral?
They used a light on Madeleine's bed next day to see if there was any chloroform why?
Why didn't the PJ notice?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 11:45:57 AM
Didn't an officer say he saw the twins sleep through all the noise? Open window, child missing, twins sleeping deeply through all the noise, it didn't ring a bell with trained Officers? No it didn't, they let the twins be taken from their cots along with the bedding, disturbing a crime scene, then Madeleine's bedding wasn't tested either.
Tested for what ? Bound to be several days before any results would be available, likely as not. How would this advance the search?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 11:52:16 AM
It doesn't matter, the Police should investigate on the evidence they find, I am not trained in Police work, but if I found what the Police found in 5a then I would be thinking, abductor and sedation, investigation should have involved the twins and the bedding of Madeleine's bed and the cots.
What did the police find then that was a signpost to abduction and sedation? [that was recorded in the statements of the first officers on the scene]
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 11:55:40 AM
It doesn't matter, the Police should investigate on the evidence they find, I am not trained in Police work, but if I found what the Police found in 5a then I would be thinking, abductor and sedation, investigation should have involved the twins and the bedding of Madeleine's bed and the cots.
The police did investigate on the evidence they had. A missing child left home alone in an unsecured apartment where, it was alleged, there had been found an open window and shutters. Just like MW they searched all night for the child using more policemen and dogs. At the same time they alerted the airport and road patrols to watch out for anything suspicious. The apartment was cleared and secured for forensic investigation in daylight.
The McCanns may have been shouting 'Abduction' but no police force takes the word of other people they have to try to cover all possibilities.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 12:01:33 PM
I would be interested to hear a logical explanation as to why it might occur to them. No-one mentioned the possibility to the PJ on the night. No-one mentioned it in statements.
I would be interested to know what you think is the function of police called to investigate the mysterious disappearance of a child from a room full of sleeping children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 12:11:36 PM
The police did investigate on the evidence they had. A missing child left home alone in an unsecured apartment where, it was alleged, there had been found an open window and shutters. Just like MW they searched all night for the child using more policemen and dogs. At the same time they alerted the airport and road patrols to watch out for anything suspicious. The apartment was cleared and secured for forensic investigation in daylight.
The McCanns may have been shouting 'Abduction' but no police force takes the word of other people they have to try to cover all possibilities.
Not though the possiblity that the children's evil parents had sedated their offspring though, it seems!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 12:14:49 PM
What evidence is there to suggest that possible sedation of the twins is connected to Madeleine's disappearance ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 09, 2017, 12:15:33 PM
I would be interested to know what you think is the function of police called to investigate the mysterious disappearance of a child from a room full of sleeping children.
Went off on their own is the logical first conclusion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 12:24:06 PM
I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?
Why?
The Lisbon CSI team tested for anaesthetics on Madeleine's bed on 4 May 2007 and found none.
And while I accept the gassing story was on Richard and Judy prior to May 2007, and so may have been a source for the McCanns, there is also the issue of whether the Lisbon CSI team 1) should have been aware of this tale and 2) should have conducted tests beyond that which they carried out.
The team was not in communication with the McCanns, as the McCanns had gone to Portimão re statements.
And the McCanns raised sedation (or whatever) with the FLO's after the CSI team had departed.
There are times in this forum when threads take on somewhat unreal properties, and it strikes me this is one of them.
The McCanns left the twins in Luz on 4 May. One assumes that was because the twins were fine, as in showing no sign of having been drugged. To imply otherwise would be to libel the McCanns.
There was no insistence that the twins should be tested. Presumably because the twins were fine.
This potentially key piece of information was not entered into statements on 4 May or 10 May. To suggest 'would', 'could', 'might', 'ought to', 'possibly' is to libel a wide range of people, including the McCanns, other members of the T7, one or more helpers on the night, one or more official translators, several PJ officers, possibly some GNR officers and possibly the FLO team.
Bear in mind, this entire thread is hanging off a sensationalist headline in a tabloid newspaper dating to a time when the picture was about as clear as mud.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 01:01:06 PM
The Lisbon CSI team tested for anaesthetics on Madeleine's bed on 4 May 2007 and found none.
And while I accept the gassing story was on Richard and Judy prior to May 2007, and so may have been a source for the McCanns, there is also the issue of whether the Lisbon CSI team 1) should have been aware of this tale and 2) should have conducted tests beyond that which they carried out.
The team was not in communication with the McCanns, as the McCanns had gone to Portimão re statements.
And the McCanns raised sedation (or whatever) with the FLO's after the CSI team had departed.
There are times in this forum when threads take on somewhat unreal properties, and it strikes me this is one of them.
The McCanns left the twins in Luz on 4 May. One assumes that was because the twins were fine, as in showing no sign of having been drugged. To imply otherwise would be to libel the McCanns.
There was no insistence that the twins should be tested. Presumably because the twins were fine.
This potentially key piece of information was not entered into statements on 4 May or 10 May. To suggest 'would', 'could', 'might', 'ought to', 'possibly' is to libel a wide range of people, including the McCanns, other members of the T7, one or more helpers on the night, one or more official translators, several PJ officers, possibly some GNR officers and possibly the FLO team.
Bear in mind, this entire thread is hanging off a sensationalist headline in a tabloid newspaper dating to a time when the picture was about as clear as mud.
Second time Cite for this checking for anaesthetics
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 01:02:12 PM
Just to remind people, read the actual scientific reports as regards sedation, etc.
Do not rely on a none cited personal opinion, which won't be validated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 01:11:27 PM
I would be interested to know what you think is the function of police called to investigate the mysterious disappearance of a child from a room full of sleeping children.
Oh come now! Poetic licence ,but you don't "do" poetry we have established, is one thing but gross exaggeration ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 01:18:07 PM
How quick do yo call quick? Searchers were out all night and then again the following morning with dogs and helicopters looking for a wandering child.
As I said before I don't mean the PJ should have been running tests on the twins that night, but at some point in the following days and weeks would surely not have been beyond their means and capabilities?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 01:20:40 PM
I'm not suggesting they tested the twins that night, but when it became apparent that a crime had most likely been committed don't you think they should have at least considered the possibility that the twins who were in the room at the time might have been interfered with in some way?
The current governing document, dated sometime in July 2008, makes reference to "what if any crime has been committed". So when in your opinion did it become "apparent that a crime had most likely been committed". The experts are deliberating on that to this day.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 01:22:06 PM
The Lisbon CSI team tested for anaesthetics on Madeleine's bed on 4 May 2007 and found none.
And while I accept the gassing story was on Richard and Judy prior to May 2007, and so may have been a source for the McCanns, there is also the issue of whether the Lisbon CSI team 1) should have been aware of this tale and 2) should have conducted tests beyond that which they carried out.
The team was not in communication with the McCanns, as the McCanns had gone to Portimão re statements.
And the McCanns raised sedation (or whatever) with the FLO's after the CSI team had departed.
There are times in this forum when threads take on somewhat unreal properties, and it strikes me this is one of them.
The McCanns left the twins in Luz on 4 May. One assumes that was because the twins were fine, as in showing no sign of having been drugged. To imply otherwise would be to libel the McCanns.
There was no insistence that the twins should be tested. Presumably because the twins were fine.
This potentially key piece of information was not entered into statements on 4 May or 10 May. To suggest 'would', 'could', 'might', 'ought to', 'possibly' is to libel a wide range of people, including the McCanns, other members of the T7, one or more helpers on the night, one or more official translators, several PJ officers, possibly some GNR officers and possibly the FLO team.
Bear in mind, this entire thread is hanging off a sensationalist headline in a tabloid newspaper dating to a time when the picture was about as clear as mud.
Why not? The issue of whether or not the children were sedated soon became a hot topic in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance, so what was stopping them running a few tests to rule it out or rule it in?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 01:24:35 PM
The current governing document, dated sometime in July 2008, makes reference to "what if any crime has been committed". So when in your opinion did it become "apparent that a crime had most likely been committed". The experts are deliberating on that to this day.
Oh do please take your pedantry elsewhere. Of course a crime had most likely been committed unless you actually think the police were ever seriously considering (after the initial searches) the likelihood of the child wandering off alone and falling down a hole or being carried off by a sea eagle?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2017, 01:33:36 PM
And then when it quickly becomes apparent the child didn't then what?
Do you really need others to talk you through how such an investigation progresses? A lot of it's common sense, and pouncing on children to test for sedation makes no sense unless there's a reason to believe they have been sedated.
What evidence did the PJ uncover in May 2007 which suggested the remaining children may have been given something to make them sleep?
Please don't say deep sleep because there's no evidence the PJ knew they were supposedly sleeping too deeply because no-one told them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 01:42:55 PM
Why not? The issue of whether or not the children were sedated soon became a hot topic in the weeks following Madeleine's disappearance, so what was stopping them running a few tests to rule it out or rule it in?
I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin? I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later. Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.
No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities. No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message. The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.
Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then. It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.
And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.
The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics. I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 01:47:33 PM
Even if it had been found that the twins had been sedated in some way, what would this have proved?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 02:40:43 PM
I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin? I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later. Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.
No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities. No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message. The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.
Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then. It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.
And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.
The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics. I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.
Let's look at it from a different perspective then - the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time. The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case? Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 03:06:27 PM
Let's look at it from a different perspective then - the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time. The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case? Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?
I think the key phrase is "online slaggers and gossips". If you are correct in this respect, I am aware of many a scurrilous rumour that appears to have surfaced in this manner, none of which has, AFAIK, entered the PJ Files.
I don't believe the PJ sat around thinking up hoops they could make the McCanns jump through, at least not until the doggies and the FSS seemed to provide a line of enquiry to be pursued.
I am not sure what the process was for getting the twins tested 1) when the Lisbon CSI team tested for and found no anaesthetics and 2) the nearest thing to 'solid evidence' was a couple of GNR officers stating the twins did not react to being relocated.
Despite what many think or assert, there is ample evidence in the PJ Files to show that legal process was being followed regarding house searches, car searches, obtaining DNA samples, collecting and analysing phone traffic. The PJ did not conduct such processes illegally, though I have seen criticism of them for not house breaking etc.
In the complete absence of evidence that the PJ knew of potential drugging and failed to act, I really can't see why anyone expects them to know that people like us think a test on the twins would be beneficial.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 03:38:24 PM
I have been asking repeatedly when this story entered the public domain, so far without a response. May I therefore ask when this 'hot topicness' emerged and is there some idea of the origin? I am asking because there is precious little on it in the PJ Files, and the earliest relevant statements I can see is by two GNR officers some months later. Presumably this was because the issue was then in the public domain.
No one, beyond Kate in her book, seems to mention passing this crucial evidence to the Portuguese police authorities. No one in the GNR recalls Kate's message. The FLO officers do not mention passing questions on to the PJ, merely that the McCanns raised a couple.
Taking statements from the GNR months later is consistent with not knowing the 'drugged' route until then. It is inconsistent with knowing about the possibility in early May.
And I'm not going to get involved in a debate about whether it was then too late to conduct tests on the twins.
The Lisbon CSI team carried out the test they thought relevant and found nothing to support anaesthetics. I cannot for the life of me see why this would lead the Portuguese authorities to conduct whatever 'tests' on the twins.
What tests did the lisbon csi carry out
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 09, 2017, 04:11:54 PM
Let's look at it from a different perspective then - the online slaggers and gossips were speculating very early on that the children had been sedated by their parents, so as a concept the sedation of the children was a very hot topic at the time. The PJ suspected the parents, knew they left them unattended, believed Madeleine had died somehow and her death covered up by her parents - why wouldn't they have considered misuse of drugs as a possible factor in the case? Were the PJ not as clever at thinking outside of the box as the armchair detectives?
Cite please.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 04:12:06 PM
It would have proved nothing but it would have been an important clue don't you think?
Clue to what ?
If sedation was a fact, then it could only be by parents or an abductor, who may or may not exist. Given that it would be impossible to prove either option, how would that take anything forward?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 04:39:49 PM
Oh do please take your pedantry elsewhere. Of course a crime had most likely been committed unless you actually think the police were ever seriously considering (after the initial searches) the likelihood of the child wandering off alone and falling down a hole or being carried off by a sea eagle?
Is that your best shot? "I Alfie know a bloody sight better than two police forces". I remain unconvinced. Is the Sea Eagle indigenous to the Algarve?
p.s. I will post against your posts within forum rules until Admin tell me I can't. You know what to do if you don't like it. Your huffing and puffing is singularly unimpressive.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 04:42:35 PM
Is that your best shot? "I Alfie know a bloody sight better than two police forces". I remain unconvinced. Is the Sea Eagle indigenous to the Algarve?
p.s. I will post against your posts within forum rules until Admin tell me I can't. You know what to do if you don't like it. Your huffing and puffing is singularly unimpressive.
Fine, back on ignore for you then - sorry to spoil your fun little boy. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 04:54:18 PM
If sedation was a fact, then it could only be by parents or an abductor, who may or may not exist. Given that it would be impossible to prove either option, how would that take anything forward?
If you don't think that it would have been important to establish whether or not the children were sedated and if so with what and how then that's your prerogative. I would have thought any clue as to what happened would have been better than none, but that's just stupid ol' little me.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 04:54:42 PM
If you don't think that it would have been important to establish whether or not the children were sedated and if so with what and how then that's your prerogative. I would have thought any clue as to what happened would have been better than none, but that's just stupid ol' little me.
Which 'what happened' are you referring to - sedation or disappearance? The two are not necessarily connected
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 05:20:35 PM
You have made a string of claims for which you have been asked for further explanation, and you have refused to provide it. The classic in this thread is that you have 40 years experience of sedation, but when asked to illuminate us, you have refused to help. That is called being unresponsive.
The previous classic was insisting that non-Portuguese speakers were being forced to read statements in Portuguese. You were invited on multiple occasions to check the actual Portuguese, because such a concept was nonsense. You repeatedly failed to check the actual Portuguese, even though the issue was explained to you in simple English. You were being unresponsive.
You have raised the concept in this thread that 1) the topic in not about drugged as per the thread title, but about sedation, and 2) that we should all accept your premise that we should only use Kate-speak and 3) that you know more about sedation than we do. Without of course providing a shred of evidence. Perhaps this is a surprise, but I am unresponsive.
Whilst I don't care as to whether the correct term is drugged, sedated or anaesthetised, it appears you do. But will you actually check? It appears you are unresponsive.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 05:32:13 PM
You have made a string of claims for which you have been asked for further explanation, and you have refused to provide it. The classic in this thread is that you have 40 years experience of sedation, but when asked to illuminate us, you have refused to help. That is called being unresponsive.
The previous classic was insisting that non-Portuguese speakers were being forced to read statements in Portuguese. You were invited on multiple occasions to check the actual Portuguese, because such a concept was nonsense. You repeatedly failed to check the actual Portuguese, even though the issue was explained to you in simple English. You were being unresponsive.
You have raised the concept in this thread that 1) the topic in not about drugged as per the thread title, but about sedation, and 2) that we should all accept your premise that we should only use Kate-speak and 3) that you know more about sedation than we do. Without of course providing a shred of evidence. Perhaps this is a surprise, but I am unresponsive.
Whilst I don't care as to whether the correct term is drugged, sedated or anaesthetised, it appears you do. But will you actually check? It appears you are unresponsive.
40 yrs experience in sedation I have explained that posters can take my word or not I am obviously not prepared to reveal my true name there are simply too many nutters about I have revealed my true name to one of the mods who can access my website if they wish
Your claim the non Portuguese speakers being asked to read statements in Portuguese is totally untrue You seem more than a little confused The posts are all ther so find one if you can You will not be able Try sticking to the truth
If you are going to criticise Kate you should be accurate You are not
still no cite from you
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 05:35:37 PM
No more hearsay please davel.
Provide cites not opinions, because if you can't do that, and say what you post is based on experience, then anybody on here can do the same, with equal justification.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
Provide cites not opinions, because if you can't do that, and say what you post is based on experience, then anybody on here can do the same, with equal justification.
I am providing my opinion based on 40 yrs of sedation experience You don't have to accept but anyone with any SENSE should be able to see I am genuine again one of the mods knows my name and can access my website
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 05:42:37 PM
You have made a string of claims for which you have been asked for further explanation, and you have refused to provide it. The classic in this thread is that you have 40 years experience of sedation, but when asked to illuminate us, you have refused to help. That is called being unresponsive.
The previous classic was insisting that non-Portuguese speakers were being forced to read statements in Portuguese. You were invited on multiple occasions to check the actual Portuguese, because such a concept was nonsense. You repeatedly failed to check the actual Portuguese, even though the issue was explained to you in simple English. You were being unresponsive.
You have raised the concept in this thread that 1) the topic in not about drugged as per the thread title, but about sedation, and 2) that we should all accept your premise that we should only use Kate-speak and 3) that you know more about sedation than we do. Without of course providing a shred of evidence. Perhaps this is a surprise, but I am unresponsive.
Whilst I don't care as to whether the correct term is drugged, sedated or anaesthetised, it appears you do. But will you actually check? It appears you are unresponsive.
With all his experience with unresponsive children it could be a case of "physician heal thyself".... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 05:44:40 PM
40 yrs experience in sedation I have explained that posters can take my word or not I am obviously not prepared to reveal my true name there are simply too many nutters about I have revealed my true name to one of the mods who can access my website if they wish
Your claim the non Portuguese speakers being asked to read statements in Portuguese is totally untrue You seem more than a little confused The posts are all ther so find one if you can You will not be able Try sticking to the truth
If you are going to criticise Kate you should be accurate You are not
still no cite from you
That could be by being the storeman who dispenses the kit.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 05:47:44 PM
CITES are required as Brietta repeatedly points out.
Now, I have provided the actual instructions and recommendations from authorized sites.
From NICE again, 'The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence'.
Provide cites not opinions, because if you can't do that, and say what you post is based on experience, then anybody on here can do the same, with equal justification.
Please refrain from this line of posting. You are asking a member to reveal his identity.
You have made claims on the forum regarding your professional status. Unless you are willing to provide proof, please do not badger a fellow member to do so.
It is up to the reader to decide if members have the expertise claimed.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 05:53:41 PM
Please refrain from this line of posting. You are asking a member to reveal his identity.
You have made claims on the forum regarding your professional status. Unless you are willing to provide proof, please do not badger a fellow member to do so.
It is up to the reader to decide if members have the expertise claimed.
No, I am not.
I am asking him to provide cites as per forum rules.
How many times have you said that to me or other posters ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 05:55:03 PM
And a sil repeatedly points out do your own donkey work Ive explained how over the top these things are There are many people taking oral diazepam at home However if I give someone oral diazepam I have to monitor them with BP and pulse oximetry Totally unnecessary but that's what the guidelines say
Interestingly diazepam is one sedative which can resedate due to hepatic recirculation Google it I don't have to
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 05:58:14 PM
40 yrs experience in sedation I have explained that posters can take my word or not I am obviously not prepared to reveal my true name there are simply too many nutters about I have revealed my true name to one of the mods who can access my website if they wish
Your claim the non Portuguese speakers being asked to read statements in Portuguese is totally untrue You seem more than a little confused The posts are all ther so find one if you can You will not be able Try sticking to the truth
If you are going to criticise Kate you should be accurate You are not
still no cite from you
Let me see. A claim re expertise again. I have no interest whatsoever in this alleged website nor in your personal details. The issue is what this 40 years covers, in general terms. But you are being unresponsive.
I didn't claim non-Portuguese speakers were asked to read statements in Portuguese. You did. Have you already forgotten 'Reads, Ratifies, Signs'? Or are you being unresponsive?
If you are going to try to criticise me, you should try to be accurate. Drugged. Anaesthetised. Sedated. Plus nothing in the files until much later. That's called being unresponsive.
And just as before, you are still not willing to check the files. That can also be called unresponsive.
I have no doubt forum posters and guests can find the report and make up their own minds.
As to your mystery mod in the know who can confirm you claims, at the moment it is All Quiet On The Moderator Front.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2017, 05:58:38 PM
Quote from: davel link=topic=7852.msg3[b
74508#msg374508 date=1483984071] I've already said administering sedation I'm giving my opinion based on that If posters don't believe me that's fine It's of no importance
OK so tell us precisely what your duties were in administering sedation including a description of the equipment, gases and chemicals used. It should be easy enough for an experienced man to rattle that lot off from memory in short time .
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 05:59:40 PM
Personally I think the phrase "cite please" should be banned from this forum, it's been well overused by some posters and is just as a way to kill discussion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 06:02:47 PM
Let me see. A claim re expertise again. I have no interest whatsoever in this alleged website nor in your personal details. The issue is what this 40 years covers, in general terms. But you are being unresponsive.
I didn't claim non-Portuguese speakers were asked to read statements in Portuguese. You did. Have you already forgotten 'Reads, Ratifies, Signs'? Or are you being unresponsive?
If you are going to try to criticise me, you should try to be accurate. Drugged. Anaesthetised. Sedated. Plus nothing in the files until much later. That's called being unresponsive.
And just as before, you are still not willing to check the files. That can also be called unresponsive.
I have no doubt forum posters and guests can find the report and make up their own minds.
As to your mystery mod in the know who can confirm you claims, at the moment it is All Quiet On The Moderator Front.
You are wrong again and should stop telling lies about me Now provide a cite or behave and remove I have never claimed anyone was asked to read a statement in Portuguese You are confused Cite or remove
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 06:10:38 PM
OK so tell us precisely what your duties were in administering sedation including a description of the equipment, gases and chemicals used. It should be easy enough for an experienced man to rattle that lot off from memory in short time .
I used to give ga with a McKesson machine using nitrous oxide and fluothane as an adjunct Adults got Brietal Later due to regs stuck to sedation RA machine simply n2o and O2 Start 80/20 then reduce O2 until sedation achieved Judged by experience Adults Valium then vasimuls and now midazolam with venflon blue Start 2 mg then increase max 10 We just used to pop 10 in for everyone
Yes it was easy for me to rattle it off
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 06:14:45 PM
I used to give ga with a McKesson machine using nitrous oxide and fluothane as an adjunct Adults got Brietal Later due to regs stuck to sedation RA machine simply n2o and O2 Start 80/20 then reduce O2 until sedation achieved Judged by experience Adults Valium then vasimuls and now midazolam with venflon blue Start 2 mg then increase max 10 We just used to pop 10 in for everyone
Yes it was easy for me to rattle it off
Sit back and wait for Alice to ridicule your post... *&*%£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 06:17:25 PM
What HE will do is pretend you've said something you haven't and insist that you have lost the debate. Or claim that you've made a fatal error in your post that only those of higher intelligence (such as himself) can discern. Well worn tactics that are wearing a bit thin... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 06:53:55 PM
What HE will do is pretend you've said something you haven't and insist that you have lost the debate. Or claim that you've made a fatal error in your post that only those of higher intelligence (such as himself) can discern. Well worn tactics that are wearing a bit thin... @)(++(*
Actually I wrote it rather quickly and there is at least on minor mistake there
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 09, 2017, 06:54:12 PM
I used to give ga with a McKesson machine using nitrous oxide and fluothane as an adjunct Adults got Brietal Later due to regs stuck to sedation RA machine simply n2o and O2 Start 80/20 then reduce O2 until sedation achieved Judged by experience Adults Valium then vasimuls and now midazolam with venflon blue Start 2 mg then increase max 10 We just used to pop 10 in for everyone
Yes it was easy for me to rattle it off
Davel, if you wanted to sedate your children whilst on holiday (if you were really that evil) what would you use and how easy would it be to a) get hold of the stuff and b) adminster it to the child?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 07:05:35 PM
Davel, if you wanted to sedate your children whilst on holiday (if you were really that evil) what would you use and how easy would it be to a) get hold of the stuff and b) adminster it to the child?
In the case of proper sedation children are actually harder to sedate than adults Elderly people being the easiest I've given 10 mgs of Valium IV to a 12 yr old and they've sat up a got out of the chair Choral Hydrate would be a good choice to induce a deep sleep and although it's prescription only in the uk it may be easier to get hold of with the more relaxed rules on the continent Would be given in a drink and take about 30 mins to work I don't think the twins were sedated As a father of 7 with many holidays such as this I've seen children that are totally impossible to wake after a long long tiring day Kate may have been a doctor but did not have that much experience taking young children on holiday and seeing just how tired they can get
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2017, 07:09:25 PM
Good people of the forum, I asked for general evidence of experience of sedation and it has been provided.
Anyone using this to try to track down and expose a forum member's identity will get sin bin points straight away.
The only note I will make about the post is that it is a ton of kit, a lot of chemicals, and a lot of expertise. IMO. Quite why it is related to drugged, anaesthetised or sedated by anyone is beyond me.
However, the bottom line is Davel has explained his experience. Please let it rest there.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 09, 2017, 07:13:59 PM
Good people of the forum, I asked for general evidence of experience of sedation and it has been provided.
Anyone using this to try to track down and expose a forum member's identity will get sin bin points straight away.
The only note I will make about the post is that it is a ton of kit, a lot of chemicals, and a lot of expertise. IMO. Quite why it is related to drugged, anaesthetised or sedated by anyone is beyond me.
However, the bottom line is Davel has explained his experience. Please let it rest there.
The post was in answer to a specific question
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 07:43:41 PM
The point I'm making is I think the PJ should have considered could this case be part of a bigger picture. The latest press release was that SY was thinking MM missing was the work of a kidnapping ring. In which case similar methods may have been used repeatedly. "Imagine if the same drug is used in other abduction cases? A clue that there is a serial abductor??" Exactly as what the SY are doing but they would have been assisted if there had been drug tests performed on the kids at the beginning.
The point I'm making is I think the PJ should have considered could this case be part of a bigger picture. The latest press release was that SY was thinking MM missing was the work of a kidnapping ring. In which case similar methods may have been used repeatedly. "Imagine if the same drug is used in other abduction cases? A clue that there is a serial abductor??" Exactly as what the SY are doing but they would have been assisted if there had been drug tests performed on the kids at the beginning. I can't provide any details other than what SY has revealed to the media.
What details would that be ?
Let's have a CITED source from SY, proving an abduction.
An opinion of course, doesn't count.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 07:54:02 PM
The point I'm making is I think the PJ should have considered could this case be part of a bigger picture. The latest press release was that SY was thinking MM missing was the work of a kidnapping ring. In which case similar methods may have been used repeatedly. "Imagine if the same drug is used in other abduction cases? A clue that there is a serial abductor??" Exactly as what the SY are doing but they would have been assisted if there had been drug tests performed on the kids at the beginning. I can't provide any details other than what SY has revealed to the media.
Which is tiddly squat. SY have publicly linked nothing else to this case, only lots of leads leading, well, nowhere.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:16:04 PM
Which is tiddly squat. SY have publicly linked nothing else to this case, only lots of leads leading, well, nowhere.
Remember this headline (just last month) "MADELEINE MCCANN
Madeleine McCann: 'Important' new lead points to trafficking gang" http://www.theweek.co.uk/madeleine-mccann/53972/madeleine-mccann-important-new-lead-points-to-trafficking-gang
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 09, 2017, 08:40:17 PM
Yeah, but none of it came from OG, I fancy. Staff-wise, they are down to one man and his dog, so not likely to be doing much investigation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 08:42:44 PM
Remember this headline (just last month) "MADELEINE MCCANN
Madeleine McCann: 'Important' new lead points to trafficking gang" http://www.theweek.co.uk/madeleine-mccann/53972/madeleine-mccann-important-new-lead-points-to-trafficking-gang
So who is the source ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:43:32 PM
From the article itself "Scotland Yard's investigation into the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann has received additional funding to examine an "important" new lead, shortly before the case was due to be shelved.
Operation Grange, which was set up in 2011 to investigate the three-year-old's disappearance, is re-examining a theory that suggests Madeleine could have been abducted by a European human trafficking gang.
"The development is being taken so seriously that senior Whitehall officials have been briefed by the [Metropolitan Police] on its progress," the Sun on Sunday reported."
Forgive me if I'm wrong but Metropolitan Police is another name for Scotland Yard isn't it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 09, 2017, 09:02:35 PM
From the article itself "Scotland Yard's investigation into the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann has received additional funding to examine an "important" new lead, shortly before the case was due to be shelved.
Operation Grange, which was set up in 2011 to investigate the three-year-old's disappearance, is re-examining a theory that suggests Madeleine could have been abducted by a European human trafficking gang.
"The development is being taken so seriously that senior Whitehall officials have been briefed by the [Metropolitan Police] on its progress," the Sun on Sunday reported."
Forgive me if I'm wrong but Metropolitan Police is another name for Scotland Yard isn't it?
Ther are no names Rob, and if you believe what Sun articles state........... 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 09:05:37 PM
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 09, 2017, 10:55:31 PM
Quote
KNOCK-OUT GAS ON OVERNIGHT TRAINS train wheel 3
Atul and Smriti Shah experienced it first-hand. “It happened during the night,” they concluded. “The entire compartment was sprayed with some sort of gas that knocked us out. Then our suitcase was slowly extracted from under our seat, the lock twisted loose and, with all the time in the world, the suitcase was looted.”
Atul and Smriti live with their small daughters in Mumbai, India, where railway is the customary way to crisscross the country. For the occasion of a relative’s marriage, the family traveled to the town of Kanpur, in Uttar Pradesh. As tradition dictates, they brought along their finest clothes and jewelry to wear to the many matrimonial celebrations and ceremonies. As a high-caste woman from a wealthy family, now married to a successful businessman, Smriti carried an enviable display of gold and diamonds.
“She had diamonds on her fingers and in her nose and ears,” Atul explained with pride, “and gold bangles and necklaces. Also, she wore the good-luck vermilion mark on her forehead that Indians always wear when traveling away from home.”
After the wedding and family visits, the Shahs boarded the train for the twenty-hour journey home. They had one suitcase, but it was a large one: fifty kilos, Atul estimated. It contained all the family’s finery, including Smriti’s jewelry, and had a small padlock on the zipper tabs. Atul forced the suitcase under Smriti’s seat in the train compartment, where it was tightly lodged. They did not open the suitcase for the duration of the journey.
The Shahs boarded in the evening, had a meal packed by Smriti’s mother, and settled down for the night.
“The strange thing is that none of us woke up during the night,” Smriti told me. “Even the children slept the night through, and they never do.”
She remembers a vague sensation of bitterness in her mouth during the night, then the desire for water. But she remembers too the lethargy she felt, the heaviness of her limbs.
Food- and drink-drugging has long been a problem on trains, but could knockout gas really be in a thief’s arsenal? In my early research, doctors had doubted the likelihood of a thief acquiring the right gas and the victims not waking from the smell. I went back to the doctors and this time they all agreed it could happen. Chloroform is often used in primitive surgical conditions and has no smell at all, some said. An anesthesiologist mentioned Halothane, which would be readily available from any surgical facility or veterinarian. Halothane has a slight odor but not enough to wake an already-sleeping person.
“Within twenty or thirty minutes,” Dr. Jared Kniffen told me, “someone could be in a deep enough sleep so that you could enter the room without his awareness. The danger of this is you could kill someone if too much were used. There’s a second possibility—a gas called Cevoflurane. It’s odorless, but much more difficult to obtain.”
But wouldn’t the robber himself be knocked out? I asked.
“There are ways to avoid that,” Dr. Kniffen said. “A certain travel supply house sells a smoke hood that gives twenty minutes of oxygen.” It’s meant for use in escaping from a burning building, but a clever thief might employ one for another use.
It sounds too sophisticated to me, too troublesome and risky. But if the reward were a treasure chest like Smriti Shah’s, it must be worth one thousand times the risk of simply snagging a laptop from a business traveler.
Despite the Shahs’ conviction, gassing on an overnight train is only a remote risk; my paranoid apprehension on our journey to Prague was out of proportion. Breaking into and stealing from compartments is a real risk though, and so is food- and drink-drugging. Nembitol, scopolamine, and benzodiazepine are the drugs most commonly slipped into food or drink, but only after the thief builds trust and confidence with the mark.
Key point: Atul and Smriti Shah are both still alive; also their children, all sedated.
No harm to any of them.
http://bobarno.com/thiefhunters/train-theft-p3/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 09, 2017, 11:10:42 PM
And lo!
My sin-bin points are promptly upped to 50%
I wonder why?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 08:23:02 AM
TO REPEAT Anyone using a post by a fellow member to publish or reveal personal details is going to get warning points.
Members are well aware of the rules by now. If a member wishes to remain anonymous then that is their right and any attempts to undermine this will attract sanctions as per forum rules. That said however, I am greatly in favour of members posting in their own name since this adds to their credibility and shows willingness to stand over their comments come what may.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 10, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
Members are well aware of the rules by now. If a member wishes to remain anonymous then that is their right and any attempts to undermine this will attract sanctions as per forum rules. That said however, I am greatly in favour of members posting in their own name since this adds to their credibility and shows willingness to stand over their comments come what may.
I think to post in your own name could be quite dangerous and also result in even more personal abuse than currently experienced . Guidelines for safety on line advise not to reveal true identities
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 10, 2017, 11:54:24 AM
I think if you listen to Redwood's comment in its proper context there was no need for him to.
Every indication we ever had from Redwood was that the Met are treating the disappearance as stranger abduction and nothing whatsoever to suggest they are treating it as anything else. I sincerely suggest you try and come to terms with this sometime soon as otherwise you face enormous disappointment which you may struggle to accept and which may cause you some distress.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2017, 03:22:27 PM
Every indication we ever had from Redwood was that the Met are treating the disappearance as stranger abduction and nothing whatsoever to suggest they are treating it as anything else. I sincerely suggest you try and come to terms with this sometime soon as otherwise you face enormous disappointment which you may struggle to accept and cause you some distress.
We shall see. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 10, 2017, 03:51:11 PM
Good grief isn't it enough that Redwood said he believed Madeleine was taken by a stranger?
If that is what he actually said, of course, which he didn't. He actually said 'Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
He says there was opportunity within the timeline for Madeleine McCann to have been taken from the apartment alive. He doesn't say it happened, he says it could have happened.
He believes that if it did happen it was carried out as a criminal act by a stranger.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2017, 05:40:19 PM
If that is what he actually said, of course, which he didn't. He actually said 'Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
He says there was opportunity within the timeline for Madeleine McCann to have been taken from the apartment alive. He doesn't say it happened, he says it could have happened.
You've highlighted everything except this bit: it is our belief,
Now, let's look at the sentence with all the stuttering repetition removed: it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that that is (as) a criminal act that has been undertaken by by a stranger.
He did not say "if".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 10, 2017, 06:01:40 PM
You've highlighted everything except this bit: it is our belief,
Now, let's look at the sentence with all the stuttering repetition removed: it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that that is (as) a criminal act that has been undertaken by by a stranger.
He did not say "if".
Based on the evidence
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2017, 06:39:57 PM
You've highlighted everything except this bit: it is our belief,
Now, let's look at the sentence with all the stuttering repetition removed: it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that that is (as) a criminal act that has been undertaken by by a stranger.
He did not say "if".
Saying there was an opportunity for something to have happened is not the same as saying it did happen. That's where the 'if' comes in.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 10, 2017, 06:55:15 PM
Saying there was an opportunity for something to have happened is not the same as saying it did happen. That's where the 'if' comes in.
Spin it any way you want it if it makes you happier. The fact is Redwood stated clearly that after forensically studying the timeline that his team had identified a window of opportunity for a stranger abductor to strike, and based on the evidence that is what they believed happened. That is precisely how his words were interpreted and reported by news media around the world, it's peculiar that they all got it so incredibly wrong and only a handful of "sceptics" got it "right", don't you think?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 06:56:40 PM
Saying there was an opportunity for something to have happened is not the same as saying it did happen. That's where the 'if' comes in.
he says there is an opportunity and based on the evidence.... which many on here are in denial about..... the fact that he mentions evidence shows he is referring to something that has happened
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2017, 07:19:31 PM
Clarence Mitchell..
“There was no evidence of a break-in''
Quite right.
No scuff marks on the window, no fingerprints identified other than Kate Mccann's.
The non-responsiveness of the children.
No drug/sedative tests, a failure of the Police and the Mccann's.
No trail of abduction/kidnapping.
Zero leads with relation to paedophiles in Portugal or elsewhere.
The dog's indications in several areas, but no indications of material/items not relating to the Mccann's.
So in reality, other than the dog's indications, NOTHING.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 07:40:44 PM
No scuff marks on the window, no fingerprints identified other than Kate Mccann's.
The non-responsiveness of the children.
No drug/sedative tests, a failure of the Police and the Mccann's.
No trail of abduction/kidnapping.
Zero leads with relation to paedophiles in Portugal or elsewhere.
The dog's indications in several areas, but no indications of material/items not relating to the Mccann's.
So in reality, other than the dog's indications, NOTHING.
The McCanns tried to get the twins drug tested. Who stopped them? You would have to look at the translator who clearly had a conflict of interest, who appeared very helpful but turned against them in the end.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2017, 07:42:17 PM
The McCanns tried to get the twins drug tested. Who stopped them? You would have to look at the translator who clearly had a conflict of interest, who appeared very helpful but turned against them in the end.
No Rob, there is no indication or statement to support that.
Why would a translator have a conflict of interest ?
That makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 07:48:39 PM
No Rob, there is no indication or statement to support that.
Why would a translator have a conflict of interest ?
That makes no sense at all.
Kate says it in her book, and two Liaison officers admit the topic was brought up on the 5th. It was raised again later when Kate was made arguido according to the file.
There are many reasons the translator had a conflict of interest and I have covered them as much as I can in the thread on the topic. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7864.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 07:49:47 PM
The only people looking increasingly isolated are the McCann's and those who insist on 'abduction'.
Not a jot of evidence to show abduction, that can't be explained by the other scenarios.
Just the dog's indications.
That is why, there has been an attack on Martin Grimes, and the dog's deployment, since they were deployed and the indications were made known.
How many things can one person get wrong
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 08:40:37 PM
I quoted it about 2 weeks ago. It is in the file itself somewhere.
I found it through Google http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE_ANOMALIES.htm
"Sign-in/check-in Warner/Creche lists The McCann case: anomalies in the case file Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 10, 2017, 10:14:47 PM
I quoted it about 2 weeks ago. It is in the file itself somewhere.
I found it through Google http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE_ANOMALIES.htm
"Sign-in/check-in Warner/Creche lists The McCann case: anomalies in the case file Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context.
Please note: This page is not part of the official police files. It is an analysis of Anomalies in the Creche files, that can be seen here LINK
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 12:16:24 AM
Spin it any way you want it if it makes you happier. The fact is Redwood stated clearly that after forensically studying the timeline that his team had identified a window of opportunity for a stranger abductor to strike, and based on the evidence that is what they believed happened. That is precisely how his words were interpreted and reported by news media around the world, it's peculiar that they all got it so incredibly wrong and only a handful of "sceptics" got it "right", don't you think?
Here is davel's sig line;
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard
Comparing it with Redwood's words it's clearly a misquote, he never said the bolded words. He may have meant that, given the standard of English grammar these days, but he didn't say it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 11, 2017, 12:22:36 AM
Topic, please.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 11, 2017, 12:27:35 AM
Spin it any way you want it if it makes you happier. The fact is Redwood stated clearly that after forensically studying the timeline that his team had identified a window of opportunity for a stranger abductor to strike, and based on the evidence that is what they believed happened. That is precisely how his words were interpreted and reported by news media around the world, it's peculiar that they all got it so incredibly wrong and only a handful of "sceptics" got it "right", don't you think?
No matter how is words were reported by the press his words are there in the interview for everyone to watch.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 11, 2017, 12:31:53 AM
If that is what he actually said, of course, which he didn't. He actually said 'Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
He says there was opportunity within the timeline for Madeleine McCann to have been taken from the apartment alive. He doesn't say it happened, he says it could have happened.
He believes that if it did happen it was carried out as a criminal act by a stranger.
What the transcript says. Whether or not there was a kidnapper is definitely part of the topic.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2017, 08:16:19 AM
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard
Comparing it with Redwood's words it's clearly a misquote, he never said the bolded words. He may have meant that, given the standard of English grammar these days, but he didn't say it.
It's clear that Maddie was almost certainly abducted It's pointless trying to make a point as no one will change their mind after 10 years but it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 10:08:37 AM
No matter how is words were reported by the press his words are there in the interview for everyone to watch.
And anyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together will know that what he meant is that the Met have been treating Madeleine's disappearance as a case of a criminal act committed by a stranger.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 10:12:14 AM
What remains abundantly cleat, is that by going down the line of abduction, SY have achieved nothing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 11, 2017, 10:17:12 AM
And anyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together will know that what he meant is that the Met have been treating Madeleine's disappearance as a case of a criminal act committed by a stranger.
Maybe that's why they haven't found either Madeleine, or a culprit.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 11, 2017, 10:25:39 AM
And anyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together will know that what he meant is that the Met have been treating Madeleine's disappearance as a case of a criminal act committed by a stranger.
It is a good job you lot don't do contract law. "I don't care what you meant, what you said/wrote was....................". There endeth the first lesson.
Anyone wanna buy a bridge or some magic beans?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 11, 2017, 10:28:48 AM
I have just been reading the statements of SILVIA MARIA CORREIO ROMOS BATISTA, the person who helped to translate questions to the Police on the 3rd of May. The person that posters say didn't mention that Kate asked for the twins to be tested for drugs.
Well, she doesn't exactly say what she translated, she just said she helped to translate, there is nothing about how Kate found the children etc.
What I did find though that she made a lot of negative remarks, she thought it strange that the window that the McCann's said was open was far from the bed of Madeleine and there wasn't enough room for someone to have taken Madeleine from her bed and out through the window. That the group and the parents weren't bothered about searching. That Gerry got down like a praying arab when the Police arrived. That she found it strange that someone could have seen another person crossing the road from the angle they were standing.
Another thing I noticed was the mistakes she made, she said the witness to the man crossing the road with a child was 'dark skinned', and that the parents took the twins from their cots to the other apartment.
Sorry, but I wouldn't call her a reliable person to say whether or not Kate asked for the twins to be tested for drugs.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 11, 2017, 10:31:26 AM
Well as they announced there wouldn't be a running commentary on the investigation then no I can't, it is a police investigation which is being kept under wraps until it has ended.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 01:27:56 PM
It's clear that Maddie was almost certainly abducted It's pointless trying to make a point as no one will change their mind after 10 years but it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks
I'm just pointing out that you seem to feel the need to misquote DCI Redwood. Why you wish to mislead people if what happened to Madeleine is so clear I can't imagine. Is it because no police force has actually committed itself by stating categorically that she was abducted?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 01:32:46 PM
I'm just pointing out that you seem to feel the need to misquote DCI Redwood. Why you wish to mislead people if what happened to Madeleine is so clear I can't imagine. Is it because no police force has actually committed itself by stating categorically that she was abducted?
No police force can state it as fact until they have cast iron proof. That is why the Met have said only that the believe Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger, and that is the theory they are working on.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 02:13:22 PM
No police force can state it as fact until they have cast iron proof. That is why the Met have said only that the believe Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger, and that is the theory they are working on.
You believe they have said that and you believe that's what they are investigating. They have, of course, also mentioned death and murder, which some people prefer to ignore.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 02:25:52 PM
You believe they have said that and you believe that's what they are investigating. They have, of course, also mentioned death and murder, which some people prefer to ignore.
What a stupid comment, but one that "sceptics" never tire of making as if the opposite of "taken in a criminal act by a stranger" is "death and murder". If Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger, then "death and murder" was (sadly) likely to follow.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 11, 2017, 05:20:43 PM
What a stupid comment, but one that "sceptics" never tire of making as if the opposite of "taken in a criminal act by a stranger" is "death and murder". If Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger, then "death and murder" was (sadly) likely to follow.
Except that's not what Redwood said. He chose his words carefully.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 05:56:08 PM
What a stupid comment, but one that "sceptics" never tire of making as if the opposite of "taken in a criminal act by a stranger" is "death and murder". If Madeleine was taken in a criminal act by a stranger, then "death and murder" was (sadly) likely to follow.
I'll let Redwood illustrate the stupidity or otherwise of what I said;
''Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.''
and;
Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 06:05:29 PM
I'll let Redwood illustrate the stupidity or otherwise of what I said;
''Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine was abducted "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.''
and;
Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
And? Interesting that you have quoted an article with the headline: "Madeleine McCann police seek intruder who attacked girls at holiday homes"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 06:12:18 PM
Is it or is it not true that when "sceptics" quote the "abduction may not follow with all our thinking" and the "considering the possibility that she may not have left the apartment alive" they believe this is a coded message from Andy Redwood that he and his team still have parental involvement on the table, and not that he meant that Madeleine may have been killed and removed from the apartment by a stranger?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 11, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Is it or is it not true that when "sceptics" quote the "abduction may not follow with all our thinking" and the "considering the possibility that she may not have left the apartment alive" they believe this is a coded message from Andy Redwood that he and his team still have parental involvement on the table, and not that he meant that Madeleine may have been killed and removed from the apartment by a stranger?
His statement seems to cover both options quite nicely.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 06:21:43 PM
His statement seems to cover both options quite nicely.
Not really, especially not when you view it in the context of when it was said, and a propos of their appeal for information re: a serial sex attacker.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 06:23:21 PM
I an reminded of Eric Morecambe playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.
OK, well can you please tell me in what ways Davel's signature line veers dramatically from what Redwood actually said then.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 07:11:30 PM
The Guardian's Sandra Laville wrote:
Quote
Dismissing conspiracy theories about Madeleine's parents' involvement, Redwood said he believed the girl's disappearance was the result of "a criminal act by a stranger".
Why, if this is not what Andy Redwood said did sh come to this conclusion? Is she stupid, deaf or in the pay of the McCanns?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 07:16:03 PM
The Telegraph article reported it thus:
12:26PM BST 25 Apr 2012 Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said he believes her disappearance was a stranger abduction, as he said there are 195 "investigative opportunities".
So - hard of hearing, stupid or in the pay of the McCanns at the Telegraph then?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 07:17:40 PM
Sky News kicked off their article with
"Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann say their review of the case suggests it was a premeditated abduction".
Deaf, dumb or being paid off by the Evils?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
In the Channel Four article on the subject they say:
"Speaking just days before the fifth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance, Det Chief Insp Redwood said he believed she had been abducted by a stranger".
Are they, like Davel and me, playing the right notes but just not in the right order? How could so many news agencies get it so wrong?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 07:21:31 PM
9 I was pointing out that davel seems to have got it wrong;
''based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard''
Perhaps it's time he replaced it with something accurate.
Are you suggesting my quote is not verbatim and therefore not accurate Surely not How would it be if it was then twice translated
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 07:26:29 PM
If anyone can find me a different interpretation of Andy Redwood's words, one in which he is reported by the MSM as saying stranger abduction is just one theory that they are looking at then by all means post it here.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 09:19:14 PM
I have seen all the interpretations of Redwood's words, but interpretatons are...interpretations. This is what he actually said;
Redwood: Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
This is davel's interpretation;
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard -[davel]
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2017, 09:35:00 PM
I have seen all the interpretations of Redwood's words, but interpretatons are...interpretations. This is what he actually said;
Redwood: Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
This is davel's interpretation;
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard -[davel]
It would be interesting to see the actual words used by the McCanns on their interviews rather than the interpretation of the interpreters Double standards from you
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 09:43:03 PM
I have seen all the interpretations of Redwood's words, but interpretatons are...interpretations. This is what he actually said;
Redwood: Yes, I mean, you know, we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timeline, and there is clearly opportunity there - for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - and it is our belief, as experienced investigators - on the evidence, that, um that you know, that that, that is as a criminal act - and that has been, you know, undertaken by by a stranger, http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/60april12/ITV1_27_04_2012.htm
This is davel's interpretation;
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard -[davel]
which is also the interpretation of most newspapers that reported Redwood's announcement. Funny that!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 11, 2017, 10:03:33 PM
It would be interesting to see the actual words used by the McCanns on their interviews rather than the interpretation of the interpreters Double standards from you
You are not able to demonstrate that Redwood used the words quoted in your sig line because he clearly didn't. No standards from you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 11, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
Guys, I think we have wandered far off topic. Can we get back to it?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 04:09:44 AM
No Rob, there is no indication or statement to support that.
Why would a translator have a conflict of interest ?
That makes no sense at all.
Kate writes about it in her book, and at least two British Liaison officers that met with the McCanns admit the topic was brought up on the 5th. It was their role to liaise with the Portuguese PJ. THe PJ tell us it was raised again later when Kate was made arguido according to the statements in the file but we don't have a record of how Kate raised that topic.
There are many reasons the translator Silvia had a conflict of interest and I have covered them as much as I can in the thread on the topic. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7864.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 06:27:43 AM
Kate writes about it in her book, and at least two British Liaison officers that met with the McCanns admit the topic was brought up on the 5th. It was their role to liaise with the Portuguese PJ. THe PJ tell us it was raised again later when Kate was made arguido according to the statements in the file but we don't have a record of how Kate raised that topic.
There are many reasons the translator Silvia had a conflict of interest and I have covered them as much as I can in the thread on the topic. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7864.0
The liaison officers evidence doesn't support what Kate wrote; the twins weren't mentioned. What would Silvia gain by keeping Kate's 'fears' from the GNR?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 06:44:45 AM
The liaison officers evidence doesn't support what Kate wrote; the twins weren't mentioned. What would Silvia gain by keeping Kate's 'fears' from the GNR?
It is disappointing the liaison officers only mention Madeleine. You think about it for a second, how stupid can they get asking for tests on Madeleine when Madeleine is missing? That is so stupid it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. What would Silvia gain? Do we know who could have drugged the kids? Do we know who took Madeleine from her room? Do we know who comforted the kids the night before? Were any of the liabilities going to reflect on the OC? Silvia disclaims any liability, so I suspect it might be an attempt to further distance liability. Any likelihood that it was due to criminal activity associated with Luz has the potential to lessen business in the area, and if it involved staff that were employed or formerly employed it might reflect on her staff recruiting techniques.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 07:11:27 AM
The liaison officers evidence doesn't support what Kate wrote; the twins weren't mentioned. What would Silvia gain by keeping Kate's 'fears' from the GNR?
Looking at what the liaison officers say "They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
OK that could mean "used any substance" on the twins or on Madeleine "to facilitate the abduction".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 08:01:15 AM
It is disappointing the liaison officers only mention Madeleine. You think about it for a second, how stupid can they get asking for tests on Madeleine when Madeleine is missing? That is so stupid it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. What would Silvia gain? Do we know who could have drugged the kids? Do we know who took Madeleine from her room? Do we know who comforted the kids the night before? Were any of the liabilities going to reflect on the OC? Silvia disclaims any liability, so I suspect it might be an attempt to further distance liability. Any likelihood that it was due to criminal activity associated with Luz has the potential to lessen business in the area, and if it involved staff that were employed or formerly employed it might reflect on her staff recruiting techniques.
Where did you get the idea that anyone asked for any tests to be done? Cite needed.
So your accusations about Silvia are pure speculation? Perhaps they should cease until you have some evidence. In fact there's no evidence that Kate mentioned her 'fears' about the twins to anyone, except her pronouncement in her book years later as far as I know.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 08:21:34 AM
Where did you get the idea that anyone asked for any tests to be done? Cite needed.
So your accusations about Silvia are pure speculation? Perhaps they should cease until you have some evidence. In fact there's no evidence that Kate mentioned her 'fears' about the twins to anyone, except her pronouncement in her book years later as far as I know.
OK they don't ask for tests to be done directly, but ask "have you any evidence?" which is sort of asking "have you done any tests?" And if they haven't done tests they could go and do tests to answer the question. It would be something to do with "who is running the investigation?". So the British would only ask in an indirect fashion which allows for this confusion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 09:49:41 AM
OK they don't ask for tests to be done directly, but ask "have you any evidence?" which is sort of asking "have you done any tests?" And if they haven't done tests they could go and do tests to answer the question. It would be something to do with "who is running the investigation?". So the British would only ask in an indirect fashion which allows for this confusion.
All I say about Silvia is that she had a conflict of interest. I then show how the conflicts could be manifestly demonstrated. OK it is always going to be hypothetical unless she was to admit to it. I am hoping SY or the PJ will reopen the case and question her on this aspect. It is not too late to investigate whether there was a conflict of interest and whether it had any bearing on the case.
It's interesting to look at the question the liaison officers were replying to;
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators.
Answer 1;
Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine's disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Answer 2;
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Are the liaison officers saying that the McCann's questions might be a sign that the McCanns could have had knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine? That was the question they were responding to.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 12, 2017, 09:55:14 AM
It's interesting to look at the question the liaison officers were replying to;
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators.
Answer 1;
Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine's disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Answer 2;
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
Are the liaison officers saying that the McCann's questions might be a sign that the McCanns could have had knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine? That was the question they were responding to.
Odd that you would miss out this bit from the statements
Quote
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators.
My reply to the question: No.[/quote]
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 10:01:44 AM
Yes it is confusing to answer the question with a definite No and then introduce some evidence. So you might suggest correctly that the McCanns had some suspicion as to how the crime was committed and hence wanted answers: "During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ." A number of questions must have been passed on to the PJ, not just these two, but a number of others as well.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 12, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
Odd that you would miss out this bit from the statements
Quote
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators.
My reply to the question: No.[/quote]
Or maybe not so odd ....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 01:15:50 PM
Odd that you would miss out this bit from the statements
Quote
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators.
My reply to the question: No.[/quote]
Perhaps because they then qualified the 'No' by adding some information which was clearly elated to the question? The answer became 'No, but.....' whatever that means.
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
My reply to the question: No.
In relation to the above I would like to mention http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Strangely, the questions the PJ wanted asked seem to have been changed by someone writing over the originals which seemed to be rather more specific.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg)
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 01:54:07 PM
Here are links to the original Portuguese rogatory letters of request which appear to be somewhat different to the English version. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_44.jpg http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_45.jpg
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 12, 2017, 02:42:22 PM
So Kate raised the possibility of drugs with the uk police in the first few day's
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 03:39:05 PM
Perhaps because they then qualified the 'No' by adding some information which was clearly elated to the question? The answer became 'No, but.....' whatever that means.
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
My reply to the question: No.
In relation to the above I would like to mention http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm
Strangely, the questions the PJ wanted asked seem to have been changed by someone writing over the originals which seemed to be rather more specific.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg)
This is due to the person sticking a stick it note on the face of the Questions to the Liaison officers before it was photographed to be put onto the DVD.
The two lines finishing with the words: "* the possibility that the children had been * MADELEINE's sibling twins should be subject to"
These two lines are interesting for we could attempt to complete those sentences in light of what were are told by two of the Liaison Officers. Did the McCanns suggest "the possibility that the children had been" drugged? Did the McCanns suggest MADELEINE's sibling twins should be subject to" forensic testing?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 12, 2017, 04:13:01 PM
Kate writes about it in her book, and at least two British Liaison officers that met with the McCanns admit the topic was brought up on the 5th. It was their role to liaise with the Portuguese PJ. THe PJ tell us it was raised again later when Kate was made arguido according to the statements in the file but we don't have a record of how Kate raised that topic.
There are many reasons the translator Silvia had a conflict of interest and I have covered them as much as I can in the thread on the topic. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7864.0
You expressed your opinion only. You never did explain whether it was an illegal conflict of interest or a contrary to contract conflict of interest. It has to be one or the other. If you cannot explain which one and why then it remains only your opinion.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
You expressed your opinion only. You never did explain whether it was an illegal conflict of interest or a contrary to contract conflict of interest. It has to be one or the other. If you cannot explain which one and why then it remains only your opinion.
You are also allowed to have the same opinion. I have previously posted a response to this and it was subsequently deleted, but in essence I have asked OG to re-open enquires into this aspect. They can sort it out easier than I can.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 06:50:26 PM
This is due to the person sticking a stick it note on the face of the Questions to the Liaison officers before it was photographed to be put onto the DVD.
The two lines finishing with the words: "* the possibility that the children had been * MADELEINE's sibling twins should be subject to"
These two lines are interesting for we could attempt to complete those sentences in light of what were are told by two of the Liaison Officers. Did the McCanns suggest "the possibility that the children had been" drugged? Did the McCanns suggest MADELEINE's sibling twins should be subject to" forensic testing?
I agree. It looks like José de Magalhães e Menezesthe wanted the liaison officers to be asked those questions, but they weren't. Someone changed the questions. Who and why, I wonder?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 08:00:38 PM
I agree. It looks like José de Magalhães e Menezesthe wanted the liaison officers to be asked those questions, but they weren't. Someone changed the questions. Who and why, I wonder?
It would have made this thread a bit more conclusive if the original questions were used. Amazing work G-unit. Have you got any way of answering those further questions "Who and why, I wonder?"
The note looked like it had been written by someone fluent in English. So I'd tend to think the process was shortened by the Liaison team's management.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 09:00:18 PM
It would have made this thread a bit more conclusive if the original questions were used. Amazing work G-unit. Have you got any way of answering those further questions "Who and why, I wonder?"
The note looked like it had been written by someone fluent in English. So I'd tend to think the process was shortened by the Liaison team's management.
The original Portuguese question about sedation & testing the twins was to be asked to Gerry McCann only. Does that mean the PJ already had a record of Kate asking for the tests?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 09:11:01 PM
The original Portuguese question about sedation & testing the twins was to be asked to Gerry McCann only. Does that mean the PJ already had a record of Kate asking for the tests?
The questionnaire was headed (halfway down page) "Questions to Liaison officers" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2017, 09:12:13 PM
It would have made this thread a bit more conclusive if the original questions were used. Amazing work G-unit. Have you got any way of answering those further questions "Who and why, I wonder?"
The note looked like it had been written by someone fluent in English.
Yes, I think we can agree that the note was written by a fluent English speaker, so someone in England wrote it. Their question then seems to have been asked instead of the ones in the letter of request.
Were the questions changed with the knowledge and agreement of the Portuguese? I can't find anything to tell me that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 12, 2017, 09:27:04 PM
You are also allowed to have the same opinion. I have previously posted a response to this and it was subsequently deleted, but in essence I have asked OG to re-open enquires into this aspect. They can sort it out easier than I can.
In other words it is your opinion with nothing to substantiate it. I suspect Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson will be reacquainted with his right eye and right arm before OG give you a definitive response.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 09:31:25 PM
In other words it is your opinion with nothing to substantiate it. I suspect Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson will be reacquainted with his right eye and right arm before OG give you a definitive response.
"nothing to substantiate it" - Only if you ignore all the points I made. I don't expect a response but I would be happy if they say that they are going to reinterview the OC and MW staff.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 12, 2017, 09:33:34 PM
"nothing to substantiate it" - Only if you ignore all the points I made. I don't expect a response but I would be happy if they say that they are going to reinterview the OC and MW staff.
Think they've already been there, done that. Unlikely that they will revisit as they are winding down and simple don't have the resources.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 12, 2017, 09:40:42 PM
"nothing to substantiate it" - Only if you ignore all the points I made. I don't expect a response but I would be happy if they say that they are going to reinterview the OC and MW staff.
It is more a question of, were the points valid in the context of what constitutes a conflict of interest as there are definitions for such. They are not a la Humpty Dumpty [loosely translated as "it is whatever I choose it to be at the time"]
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 10:25:10 PM
The questionnaire was headed (halfway down page) "Questions to Liaison officers" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg
Sorry - should have said "about" Gerry McCann only.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_45.jpg "Em algem momento Gerald McCann referieu a possibilidade das crianca terem sido sedadas, tendo mesmo sugerido que fossem effectuados exames toxicologicos aos irmaos gemeos de Madeleine?"
"At that moment did Gerald McCann refer to the possibility of the children having been sedated, even suggesting that toxicological tests be performed on Madeleine's twin brothers?"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 10:48:13 PM
That is the Portuguese version, so do you know where the translated version is in the file? I could not find the word Toxi.... drug .... in the file called http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm I then click on "UK POLICE LIAISON OFFICER STATEMENTS" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#rr20 in the index and that takes me to a file called "ROGATORY LETTERS OF REQUEST & RESPONSES" and on that page is the picture of the questionnaire, but the translation of that page doesn't seem to be there. (well I couldn't find it quickly).
It is like someone has messed up in the filing.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 11:04:07 PM
Where is the English translation of http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_45.jpg Where abouts is this document in the file starting from the index please?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 11:21:20 PM
Where is the English translation of http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_45.jpg Where abouts is this document in the file starting from the index please?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_120.jpg
Google McCannpjfiles Go to Original DVD images. Go to Carta Rogatoria File 2.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 12, 2017, 11:32:57 PM
Maybe there is a totally innocent explanation for all this? Two documents exist one in Portuguese one in English both on PJ headed paper both in the PJ files(?). The English version was sent to UK for execution. The translation of : "Em algum momento Gerald Mccann referiu a possiblidade das criancas teremsido sedadas tendo mesmo sugerido que fossem efectuados exams toxicologicos aos irmaos gemeos de madeleine ?" is : "At some point Gerald Mccann mentioned the possibility of the children having been sedated and even suggested that toxicological tests be performed on the twin brothers of madeleine ?"
The existence of the question mark indicates it is not a statement but it is oddly phrased as a question. A UK officer appends a FLYN to clarify what should be covered during the questioning. ie the FLYN is an addendum not a substitution.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 11:34:51 PM
Google McCannpjfiles Go to Original DVD images. Go to Carta Rogatoria File 2.
Thanks - I'm getting there. So under which heading on this page http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm do you think it would fall? I have never accessed files the method you use. So what is the number? Is it 120? no it is 45! found it, but where is the English translation of that file?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: misty on January 12, 2017, 11:42:08 PM
Thanks - I'm getting there. So under which heading on this page http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm do you think it would fall? I have never accessed files the method you use. So what is the number? Is it 120? no it is 45! found it, but where is the English translation of that file?
Page cr120 is supposed to be the English translation of pages 44 & 45 in the same file.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 12:40:48 AM
Page cr120 is supposed to be the English translation of pages 44 & 45 in the same file.
OK Maybe not a true translation but the source, for the questions had to be agreed upon. Well that is how I conceptualize it ATM. The Portuguese ask a question relating to sedation and it get watered down to the question on the note. "* Was there anything said or done by KATE or GERALD McCANN in your presence or during any contact with them that raised any suspicion that they had any knowledge of what had happened to MADELEINE other than that of the circumstances described to this Portuguese Investigation ?)" Page 120 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#rr20
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 08:19:40 AM
OK Maybe not a true translation but the source, for the questions had to be agreed upon. Well that is how I conceptualize it ATM. The Portuguese ask a question relating to sedation and it get watered down to the question on the note. "* Was there anything said or done by KATE or GERALD McCANN in your presence or during any contact with them that raised any suspicion that they had any knowledge of what had happened to MADELEINE other than that of the circumstances described to this Portuguese Investigation ?)" Page 120 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#rr20
The answers to the original questions would have allowed the Portuguese to discover exactly what was said to the liaison officers by the McCanns.
The answers to the replacement question allowed the Portuguese to find out what was said only if the liaison officers thought it was suspicious.
In the UK part of these officer's job is to gather information for the investigation. I expect they use their judgement about what to pass on, though. If Kate and Gerry were calling for the twins to be tested the officers may have seen this as an over-reaction by two worried parents and not passed it on. At the time they had no way of knowing what a huge issue it would become, of course. .
The replacement question allowed them to say 'No' even if the McCann's did ask for the twins to be tested, because in their opinion it wasn't suspicious for them to do so.
The two officers who said 'No' to the replacement question, then added something, may have been speaking in hindsight. i.e. they didn't find what the McCanns said suspicious at the time, but may have wondered about it subsequently.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:43:23 AM
mmm! I have actually run out of ideas.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 12:03:41 PM
Often one topic will lead to another but I've had a series of dead ends so I'm left without a topic. This thread has been a surprise though, how I thought it would be just a short one, but still might end up 100 pages long. It has uncovered the only document written in Portuguese that isn't translated into English and on that document are questions related to requests for toxicological tests and questions about sedatives. [I don't know if it is the only document that has missed being translated but is the only one I know of so far.] It then is followed up with another document that is photographed with a stick-it note over the top of questions thought to be about the use of sedatives from the context of the remaining words. If there is any true evidence of a cover-up in this case that is it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 04:51:25 PM
Seek and you will find. It seems the questions for the liaison officers were officially changed at the request of Stuart Prior of Leicestershire Police;
The public Prosecutor of the Portimao jurisdiction in Portugal, requests to the competent judicial authorities in the United Kingsom in complement with the Letter of Request despatched under official 3704438 dated of the 23/01/2008 to omit and replace the questions formulated under point XIV (only in replacement of part (N| 7) where it inquired "Can you point out any incident with Kate or Gerald McCann?", XVI and XXII with the new wording, due to formal imperatives and main request of the responsible for the accomplishment of the Letters of Request, Mr Stuart Prior, which the translation refers to.
Point XIV - remove the question n| 7, replacing it by the following: "Was there anything said or done by Kate or Gerald McCann in your presence or during any contact with them that raised any suspicion that they had any knowledge of what happened to Madeleine, other than of the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#4401
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2017, 05:06:33 PM
Often one topic will lead to another but I've had a series of dead ends so I'm left without a topic. This thread has been a surprise though, how I thought it would be just a short one, but still might end up 100 pages long. It has uncovered the only document written in Portuguese that isn't translated into English and on that document are questions related to requests for toxicological tests and questions about sedatives. [I don't know if it is the only document that has missed being translated but is the only one I know of so far.] It then is followed up with another document that is photographed with a stick-it note over the top of questions thought to be about the use of sedatives from the context of the remaining words. If there is any true evidence of a cover-up in this case that is it.
Mmm, good points Rob £5%4% Now who would be responsible for these omissions ?
Food for thought.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2017, 05:16:04 PM
Seek and you will find. It seems the questions for the liaison officers were officially changed at the request of Stuart Prior of Leicestershire Police;
The public Prosecutor of the Portimao jurisdiction in Portugal, requests to the competent judicial authorities in the United Kingsom in complement with the Letter of Request despatched under official 3704438 dated of the 23/01/2008 to omit and replace the questions formulated under point XIV (only in replacement of part (N| 7) where it inquired "Can you point out any incident with Kate or Gerald McCann?", XVI and XXII with the new wording, due to formal imperatives and main request of the responsible for the accomplishment of the Letters of Request, Mr Stuart Prior, which the translation refers to.
Point XIV - remove the question n| 7, replacing it by the following: "Was there anything said or done by Kate or Gerald McCann in your presence or during any contact with them that raised any suspicion that they had any knowledge of what happened to Madeleine, other than of the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#4401
I'm very impressed by the diligence that is applied to searching through the files. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
I'm very impressed by the diligence that is applied to searching through the files. 8((()*/
The problem was to find it because it wasn't easy, the content wasn't hinted at in the title of the document. It had to be there somewhere though because Letters of Request have to be officially changed via the Home Office. I wanted to know who changed it; well the Public Prosecutor did, but at the request of Stuart Prior. It seems he didn't want to ask the liaison officers the original questions, but why.......?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2017, 05:30:53 PM
Perhaps he knew what the answer might be and didn't want it in the record.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 05:35:56 PM
IT. The cover up. See Jassi's suggestion. I was of course not being serious, but perhaps Jassi was? What's your view on the matter? We're on 'mountains from molehills' territory again in my view....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 13, 2017, 05:53:36 PM
IT. The cover up. See Jassi's suggestion. I was of course not being serious, but perhaps Jassi was? What's your view on the matter? We're on 'mountains from molehills' territory again in my view....
Perhaps you could make a guess as to why Prior didn't want to ask the liaison officers the original questions?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 06:25:07 PM
Well, if you can't make a guess yourself why should we help you out?
It is courteous when asked a question to answer it first and then ask your own question. Why should I answer your questions when you don't answer mine first?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2017, 07:10:24 PM
Well, if you can't make a guess yourself why should we help you out?
The difficulty I am having with it is that when members make a statement as if they are in 'the know' regarding the content, then refuse to elaborate when asked politely about it ... why make a statement or ask a question to a provided link which then appears to be innuendo as apparently it cannot be substantiated?
A good game, but a practice which is becoming more and more prevalent on the threads and in my opinion has the effect of disrupting the flow of information and discussion on the threads.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2017, 07:14:10 PM
Who hid the pertinent words with a post-it sticker ?
Quote
Seek and you will find. It seems the questions for the liaison officers were officially changed at the request of Stuart Prior of Leicestershire Police;
The public Prosecutor of the Portimao jurisdiction in Portugal, requests to the competent judicial authorities in the United Kingsom in complement with the Letter of Request despatched under official 3704438 dated of the 23/01/2008 to omit and replace the questions formulated under point XIV (only in replacement of part (N| 7) where it inquired "Can you point out any incident with Kate or Gerald McCann?", XVI and XXII with the new wording, due to formal imperatives and main request of the responsible for the accomplishment of the Letters of Request, Mr Stuart Prior, which the translation refers to.
Point XIV - remove the question n| 7, replacing it by the following: "Was there anything said or done by Kate or Gerald McCann in your presence or during any contact with them that raised any suspicion that they had any knowledge of what happened to Madeleine, other than of the circumstances described to the Portuguese investigators?" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#4401 (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#4401)
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 07:44:44 PM
IT. The cover up. See Jassi's suggestion. I was of course not being serious, but perhaps Jassi was? What's your view on the matter? We're on 'mountains from molehills' territory again in my view....
Maybe both sides are regretting not having proceeding with testing the twins, but neither side wants to appear responsible for this omission, for it is clear that the McCanns asked for it but no one ever did it. I get the feeling the Liaison team did not pass on the request from the McCanns. I get the feeling it may have been hinted at to the PJ but they didn't take the initiative. The PJ put the blame back on the McCanns by saying Kate asked for tests when she knew the results would be negative. It clearly wasn't up to the McCanns to run the investigation though.
Was it simply to just too politically insensitive to take blood tests from the twins for it would have shown too much emphasis that the McCanns maybe involved at that stage? That argument, if that was the reason, seems wrong for a result would not tell us who used or administered these possible substances.
Who did the cover up? It appears both the PJ and the British Liaison team have been involved in the cover-up.
The non translation - was that the McCanns? Can't be since there are more than one lot doing the translations. How did everyone miss translating that document? It is a mystery alright.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 13, 2017, 07:49:40 PM
Maybe both sides are regretting not having proceeding with testing the twins, but neither side wants to appear responsible for this omission, for it is clear that the McCanns asked for it but no one ever did it. I get the feeling the Liaison team did not pass on the request from the McCanns. I get the feeling it may have been hinted at to the PJ but they didn't take the initiative. The PJ put the blame back on the McCanns by saying Kate asked for tests when she knew the results would be negative. It clearly wasn't up to the the McCanns to run the investigation though.
Was it simply to just too politically insensitive to take blood tests from the twins for it would have shown too much emphasis that the McCanns maybe involved at that stage? That argument, if that was the reason, seems wrong for a result would not tell us who used or administered these possible substances.
Who did the cover up? It appears both the PJ and the British Liaison team have been involved in the cover-up.
The non translation - was that the McCanns? Can't be since there are more than one lot doing the translations. How did everyone miss translating a document? It is a mystery alright.
It was translated and modified as shown in the above posts.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:01:25 PM
Who hid the pertinent words with a post-it sticker ?
It is like that in the PJ file so the PJ must have been fully aware a post-it sticker was added to their document. It was obviously put there by the British liaison team rather than answer all those tedious questions, and replaced by a simple question that could be answered by a single word "No". But fortunately two liaison officers expanded on the answer.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 08:02:24 PM
So you are saying that Stuart Prior stuck a post-it over the pertinent words before photocopying it, are you ?
Was he trying to deceive everyone, do you think?
Ooo-err, I think not.
Who stuck the post-it over the pertinent words, which indicated that The Mccanns wanted the twins tested for sedation?
Someone in the UK stuck the note on, we don't know who. All we know is that it was Prior who asked for the questions to the liaison officers be changed.
The words covered by the note don't indicate that the McCanns asked for the twins to be tested. They indicate that the PJ wanted to know if the McCanns had asked the liaison officers to ask the PJ to test them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:08:08 PM
It was translated and modified as shown in the above posts.
Was it? Was page CR 120 ever translated? I must have missed that. I accepted that 44, 45 were joined in translation. Maybe Misty has understood it all, for on page 120 there were questions or statements talking about "toxicological" and "sedatives" and no English document has those words in them, so was it ever translated?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:14:00 PM
Someone in the UK stuck the note on, we don't know who. All we know is that it was Prior who asked for the questions to the liaison officers be changed.
The words covered by the note don't indicate that the McCanns asked for the twins to be tested. They indicate that the PJ wanted to know if the McCanns had asked the liaison officers to ask the PJ to test them.
"the PJ wanted to know if the McCanns had asked the liaison officers to ask the PJ to test them. " You can see the politics of that can't you? This is before Kate has written her book.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
So you are saying that Stuart Prior stuck a post-it over the pertinent words before photocopying it, are you ?
Was he trying to deceive everyone, do you think?
Ooo-err, I think not.
Who stuck the post-it over the pertinent words, which indicated that The Mccanns wanted the twins tested for sedation?
It is not deception to stick a post-it note on a document and send it back with the modified question. All the liaison team answer the modified question so it must have been done with the approval of the liaison team management. Not sure of their names, sorry.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2017, 08:55:03 PM
"the PJ wanted to know if the McCanns had asked the liaison officers to ask the PJ to test them. " You can see the politics of that can't you? This is before Kate has written her book.
She asked the PJ about testing the twins hair and nails in August 2007 (when it was too late). Control Risks tested them in September 2007, I think?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 09:02:36 PM
I suppose there would also be the issue of what samples were tested for. If you look for the wrong things, then you're bound to get a negative result.
There were hundreds of possible substances. Someone suggested that these could be tested for. I do not know how tests are run. I suspect there wouldn't be enough hair on the kids to test for everything possible. Then this gets tricky, they'd need clues to begin with. Like at least test for the drugs the McCanns took with them, but then they would have needed to be make the McCanns arguidos at that time.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2017, 09:24:43 PM
There were hundreds of possible substances. Someone suggested that these could be tested for I not in my knowledge of how tests were run. Like there wouldn't be enough hair on the kids to test for everything possible. Gets tricky, they'd need clues to begin with. Like at least test for the drugs the McCanns took with them, but then they would have needed to be made arguidos at that time.
Why would they do that. These people were working for the McCann, so would be directed to test for substances that an alleged intruder would have, not what the McCanns would have with them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 09:32:57 PM
Why would they do that. These people were working for the McCann, so would be directed to test for substances that an alleged intruder would have, not what the McCanns would have with them.
Kate says the McCanns tested the twins for the drugs they had with them.
The tests I was referring to were the possible tests the PJ could have done. To test for everything they would have had to shave the kids heads to get enough hair.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2017, 09:36:38 PM
Kate says the McCanns tested the twins for the drugs they had with them.
The tests I was referring to were the possible tests the PJ could have done. To test for everything they would have had to shave the kids heads to get enough hair.
How strange. Did she think that an intruder would not come ready prepared with their own kit and would to need to use theirs?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 09:40:40 PM
Ah right. Then she should have done it somewhat earlier when the tests might have meaningful
It only makes sense for the McCanns to test when they have been made arguidos. The PJ should have done tests at the start. They shouldn't have to prove their innocence.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:04:06 AM
There doesn't seem to be a translation of this page in the PJ files www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_45.jpg And it is talking about drug testing the kids I think. Misty has translated part of it http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg375239#msg375239
"At that moment did Gerald McCann refer to the possibility of the children having been sedated, even suggesting that toxicological tests be performed on Madeleine's twin brothers?"
I'll see if i can get the whole page translated.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 07:22:10 AM
Kate says the McCanns tested the twins for the drugs they had with them.
The tests I was referring to were the possible tests the PJ could have done. To test for everything they would have had to shave the kids heads to get enough hair.
'Kate says the Mccanns tested the twins for the drugs they had with them' ?
Perhaps you can cite that statement. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:40:37 AM
'Kate says the Mccanns tested the twins for the drugs they had with them' ?
Perhaps you can cite that statement. 8**8:/:
Haven't you bought her book and read it? It took a while but is documented on page 337 of the revised version (15 pages into the chapter on "The fightback begins" "And on the 24 September, a forensic scientist from Controlled Risks came to take samples of hair from Sean, Amelie and myself."
Read page in Google Books https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=a+forensic+scientist+from+Controlled+Risks+came+to+take+samples+of+hair+from+Sean&source=bl&ots=1vHsfItmre&sig=HuQxy-vMyCvBBvNONtU3Z8vL8R0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZt5brkMHRAhVLppQKHX3qDR4Q6AEIGTAA
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 08:01:02 AM
Haven't you bought her book and read it? It took a while but is documented on page 337 of the revised version (15 pages into the chapter on "The fightback begins" "And on the 24 September, a forensic scientist from Controlled Risks came to take samples of hair from Sean, Amelie and myself."
Read page in Google Books https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Gl1YDgqho6kC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=a+forensic+scientist+from+Controlled+Risks+came+to+take+samples+of+hair+from+Sean&source=bl&ots=1vHsfItmre&sig=HuQxy-vMyCvBBvNONtU3Z8vL8R0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZt5brkMHRAhVLppQKHX3qDR4Q6AEIGTAA
I'm sorry to disappoint Rob, but i don't take the book really seriously, as it was written well after the events, and there is no independent record of that at the time of what she said, and what you stated requires that, and not Kate Mccann's hearsay.
By the way Rob, can you provide the cite from the book, including the page and sentence number, where she states what you claim ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 08:31:31 AM
It only makes sense for the McCanns to test when they have been made arguidos. The PJ should have done tests at the start. They shouldn't have to prove their innocence.
I wish people would stop saying that. Why would they?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2017, 08:42:21 AM
It only makes sense for the McCanns to test when they have been made arguidos. The PJ should have done tests at the start. They shouldn't have to prove their innocence.
Based on the test result, they certainly didn't prove anything.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:21:50 AM
I'm sorry to disappoint Rob, but i don't take the book really seriously, as it was written well after the events, and there is no independent record of that at the time of what she said, and what you stated requires that, and not Kate Mccann's hearsay.
By the way Rob, can you provide the cite from the book, including the page and sentence number, where she states what you claim ?
I gave you the page number. page 337 of the revised and updated version I'm not going to count the sentences.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 09:24:57 AM
If you seriously think I would but the 'revised edition',have another think. 8)--))
I gave you the page number. page 337, 338 of the revised and updated version. It starts off "And on the 24 September, a forensic scientist from Controlled Risks came to take samples of hair from Sean, Amelie and myself." google it and then Google a bit more.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 09:32:09 AM
I gave you the page number. page 337, 338 of the revised and updated version. It starts off "And on the 24 September, a forensic scientist from Controlled Risks came to take samples of hair from Sean, Amelie and myself." google it and then Google a bit more.
That was way after the event, and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
You know that don't you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:35:46 AM
Could you guarantee that? It could have been against the Portuguese law.
I don't see how the McCanns could arrange independent testing themselves as they would be breaking the PT secrecy laws by the necessary discussion of the case that would be inevitable when explaining their reasons for testing to hospital staff.
This was an ongoing case and IMO testing could only be arranged via the PJ - which did not happen.
As it transpired the testing that did take place found no evidence of drugs intake - either by the twins or Kate.
IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 14, 2017, 10:23:27 AM
I don't see how the McCanns could arrange independent testing themselves as they would be breaking the PT secrecy laws by the necessary discussion of the case that would be inevitable when explaining their reasons for testing to hospital staff.
This was an ongoing case and IMO testing could only be arranged via the PJ - which did not happen.
As it transpired the testing that did take place found no evidence of drugs intake - either by the twins or Kate.
IMO
Didn't the testing by the McCanns take place when they were still arguidos ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 10:24:35 AM
I don't see how the McCanns could arrange independent testing themselves as they would be breaking the PT secrecy laws by the necessary discussion of the case that would be inevitable when explaining their reasons for testing to hospital staff.
This was an ongoing case and IMO testing could only be arranged via the PJ - which did not happen.
As it transpired the testing that did take place found no evidence of drugs intake - either by the twins or Kate.
IMO
How would it break the secrecy laws ?
They could have organized it with the cooperation of the Police.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 10:26:23 AM
You said "NOTHING, prevented the Mccanns having their surviving children tested whilst still in Portugal."
I didn't actually, although I do agree with that statement. Control Risks were present there within a week, and could have taken samples then, if asked. Who would have known or stopped them? I was just answering your speculation about Portuguese law.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 10:29:37 AM
I didn't actually, although I do agree with that statement. Control Risks were present there within a week, and could have taken samples then, if asked. Who would have known or stopped them? I was just answering your speculation about Portuguese law.
I must be getting tired. I missed that. Sorry.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 10:31:03 AM
I don't see how the McCanns could arrange independent testing themselves as they would be breaking the PT secrecy laws by the necessary discussion of the case that would be inevitable when explaining their reasons for testing to hospital staff.
This was an ongoing case and IMO testing could only be arranged via the PJ - which did not happen.
As it transpired the testing that did take place found no evidence of drugs intake - either by the twins or Kate.
IMO
All the hair samples produced negative results. While this didn’t totally exclude the possibility that the children had been sedated, especially given the time that had elapsed, it meant nobody else (including the PJ and the media) could prove otherwise [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 10:37:06 AM
Didn't the testing by the McCanns take place when they were still arguidos ?
IIRC Faith - they were back in the UK when the tests were carried out - so out of the jurisdiction of PT secrecy laws, which AFAIK do not carry any legal weight in this country.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 14, 2017, 11:00:34 AM
IIRC Faith - they were back in the UK when the tests were carried out - so out of the jurisdiction of PT secrecy laws, which AFAIK do not carry any legal weight in this country.
Several times while being interviewed in the UK before the lifting of their arguidos status the couple said they couldn't talk about the investigation due to judicial secrecy.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2017, 11:02:55 AM
All the hair samples produced negative results. While this didn’t totally exclude the possibility that the children had been sedated, especially given the time that had elapsed, it meant nobody else (including the PJ and the media) could prove otherwise [Madeleine]
If it was a fact that it was 100% impossible for the tests to show what had happened 5 (?) months earlier - then there would have been no point in having them in the first place. Of course had the tests revealed positive results then no doubt some sceptics would be claiming that as proof that Kate was in the habit of giving her children drugs IMO.
The negative results showed that not to be the case - which concurs with evidence from other people who knew them well enough to have an informed opinion. I doubt if anyone as health conscious as Kate, that a rich tea biscuit was regarded as a major treat, would be putting even Calpol into her children's systems unless it was really necessary.
IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2017, 11:06:44 AM
Several times while being interviewed in the UK before the lifting of their arguidos status the couple said they couldn't talk about the investigation due to judicial secrecy.
Do you happen to know when the testing was first revealed? I don't know and I haven't got time to look at the moment.
Must dash now - be back later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 14, 2017, 11:32:24 AM
If it was a fact that it was 100% impossible for the tests to show what had happened 5 (?) months earlier - then there would have been no point in having them in the first place. Of course had the tests revealed positive results then no doubt some sceptics would be claiming that as proof that Kate was in the habit of giving her children drugs IMO.
The negative results showed that not to be the case - which concurs with evidence from other people who knew them well enough to have an informed opinion. I doubt if anyone as health conscious as Kate, that a rich tea biscuit was regarded as a major treat, would be putting even Calpol into her children's systems unless it was really necessary.
IMO
Short term sedation would, I believe, be impossible to detect months after the event.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 11:38:53 AM
If it was a fact that it was 100% impossible for the tests to show what had happened 5 (?) months earlier - then there would have been no point in having them in the first place. Of course had the tests revealed positive results then no doubt some sceptics would be claiming that as proof that Kate was in the habit of giving her children drugs IMO.
The negative results showed that not to be the case - which concurs with evidence from other people who knew them well enough to have an informed opinion. I doubt if anyone as health conscious as Kate, that a rich tea biscuit was regarded as a major treat, would be putting even Calpol into her children's systems unless it was really necessary.
IMO
The point seems to have been this;
it meant nobody else (including the PJ and the media) could prove otherwise. [Madeleine]
In other words the rumours of sedation couldn't be proved either way.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 06:57:10 AM
I have previously made the point that Kate may have asked for the twins to be tested for sedatives but the translator didn't pass on the information.
We have another example of where a translator fails to record some important aspect of a witness statement and this is found in Jane tanner's rogatory interview. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm "Reply “Mmm, you see I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you, can remember you saying that cos erm”. 4078 “So it was said, it just might not have been in it”? Reply “It was definitely, it was definitely said and I said and the Translator, I can remember sort of, she said, oh yes I can remember you doing these sort of hand movements so, I can’t prove that but”. 4078 “She didn’t say you did the lobster thing then”? Reply “Afraid not”. 4078 “No”. Reply “So yeah it did worry me that that wasn’t in the”."
The gist of that is that things were said and described but were omitted from the statement. What I would like to know is whether the interpreters were getting instructions in Portuguese not to record certain facts on the witness statements.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 16, 2017, 01:10:48 PM
I have previously made the point that Kate may have asked for the twins to be tested for sedatives but the translator didn't pass on the information.
We have another example of where a translator fails to record some important aspect of a witness statement and this is found in Jane tanner's rogatory interview. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm "Reply “Mmm, you see I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you, can remember you saying that cos erm”. 4078 “So it was said, it just might not have been in it”? Reply “It was definitely, it was definitely said and I said and the Translator, I can remember sort of, she said, oh yes I can remember you doing these sort of hand movements so, I can’t prove that but”. 4078 “She didn’t say you did the lobster thing then”? Reply “Afraid not”. 4078 “No”. Reply “So yeah it did worry me that that wasn’t in the”."
The gist of that is that things were said and described but were omitted from the statement. What I would like to know is whether the interpreters were getting instructions in Portuguese not to record certain facts on the witness statements.
Well spotted Rob
How interesting, so stuff was omitted from her statement that Jane said.
This means that we cant trust the statements to include everything said by witnesses, does it not ?
I wonder why stuff was missed out ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 16, 2017, 01:43:04 PM
How interesting, so stuff was omitted from her statement that Jane said.
This means that we cant trust the statements to include everything said by witnesses, does it not ?
I wonder why stuff was missed out ? &%+((£
I don't find Silvia a very reliable translator, she got a few things wrong in her statement, and seemed to 'remember' things later, but only things that cast doubt on the abduction.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 16, 2017, 02:13:08 PM
I don't find Silvia a very reliable translator, she got a few things wrong in her statement, and seemed to 'remember' things later, but only things that cast doubt on the abduction.
Are you referring to Silvia Batista above?
Jane's first two statements were translated by the same translator, but it wasn't Silvia Batista.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 06:29:18 PM
Jane's first two statements were translated by the same translator, but it wasn't Silvia Batista.
So the problem was with more than one translator. That is why I was wondering if the PJ were not manipulating what is being written down by instructing the translator in Portuguese what is acceptable to be recorded or not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 16, 2017, 07:49:04 PM
So the problem was with more than one translator. That is why I was wondering if the PJ were not manipulating what is being written down by instructing the translator in Portuguese what is acceptable to be recorded or not.
You have not got close to proving an issue with the translation that was done by Silvia Batista on the night Madeleine disappeared.
You have not got close to proving an issue with the translation of Jane Tanner's first two statements.
To claim 'the problem was with more than one translator' is therefore unfounded.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 08:06:11 PM
You have not got close to proving an issue with the translation that was done by Silvia Batista on the night Madeleine disappeared.
You have not got close to proving an issue with the translation of Jane Tanner's first two statements.
To claim 'the problem was with more than one translator' is therefore unfounded.
So would you go so far as saying Jane was lying about that problem with her translator in her rogatory statement? It is in the file recorded that Jane complains about the translator. The evidence is in my favour on that one.
Silvia is a different situation, where we have multiple statements and writings saying that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs, and the GNR and PJ are not told about this on the morning of the 4th. I blame the translator for she is there to transmit the concerns of Kate. Emma Knight is also in the apartment and Silvia doesn't mention her being present, so no one can claim she tells it all as it is. OK I can't prove that Silvia withheld the request, but neither can anyone bar the SY or the PJ prove the opposite. The case needs further investigation.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 16, 2017, 08:26:00 PM
So would you go so far as saying Jane was lying about that problem with her translator in her rogatory statement? It is in the file recorded that Jane complains about the translator. The evidence is in my favour on that one.
Silvia is a different situation, where we have multiple statements and writings saying that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs, and the GNR and PJ are not told about this on the morning of the 4th. I blame the translator. OK I can't prove it but neither can anyone prove the opposite.
No, what I do not do, unless I can fully support it with credible evidence, is to pick out a person and state that they are lying.
The rogatories were a long time later. Memories evolve over time. Therefore I have no reason to call Jane a liar, as opposed to being someone who misremembered.
Silvia Batista is most definitely NOT a different situation. The only piece of independent, reliable evidence about sedation appears in two FLO statements, which are also far from contemporaneous. A summation of the pertinent point is that the McCanns wanted to know if there was evidence that Madeleine had been sedated. This is totally different to requesting that the twins be tested.
You are stating that Silvia Batista withheld vital evidence without a shred of proof that she did. That is called libel.
I hope you actually understand what libel is, because if you persist in this vein, it will result in more than a simple deletion of your offending post.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 08:41:26 PM
Do you know her? Has she commented on my proposition?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 08:49:50 PM
Correction: "we have multiple statements and writings saying that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs,..."
I should make it clear "we have multiple statements and writings saying (directly or indirectly) that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs ...." I heard it repeated in the Panorama documentary too in Gerry's own words. https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=930 to https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=952
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 08:57:20 PM
SIL you might have missed my edit "OK I can't prove that Silvia withheld the request, but neither can anyone, bar the SY or the PJ, prove the opposite. The case needs further investigation."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 09:12:36 PM
I heard it repeated in the Panorama documentary too in Gerry's own words. https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=930 to https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=952
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 16, 2017, 10:40:10 PM
Correction: "we have multiple statements and writings saying that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs,..."
I should make it clear "we have multiple statements and writings saying (directly or indirectly) that the McCanns wanted the twins tested for drugs ...." I heard it repeated in the Panorama documentary too in Gerry's own words. https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=930 to https://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY?t=952
There is "NOTHING" in that segment where the McCanns asked for the twins to be tested. Gerry - "which does make me wonder if there was (sic) any substances used to keep them asleep".
Gerry's alleged wonderings do not equal the McCanns asked for the twins to be tested. Nowhere close.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 16, 2017, 11:17:55 PM
According to Amaral the twins did wake up that night - from his book:
– The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
So if he is to be believed (and why would he lie?) then this would probably explain why Kate McCann did not feel the need to rush her children to hospital. They woke up and so were not unresponsive.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 16, 2017, 11:37:57 PM
According to Amaral the twins did wake up that night - from his book:
– The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
So if he is to be believed (and why would he lie?) then this would probably explain why Kate McCann did not feel the need to rush her children to hospital. They woke up and so were not unresponsive.
He also wrote that calpol was a sedative, Tanner identified Murat and Prior was heard to say that in the UK the McCanns would be arrested on less evidence. So where does that leave us?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 12:22:30 AM
He also wrote that calpol was a sedative, Tanner identified Murat and Prior was heard to say that in the UK the McCanns would be arrested on less evidence. So where does that leave us?
If Prior said that ... .... did he understand that the so called 'dog alerts' were not alerts to cadaver odour at all.
Did Amaral not understand and erroniously / incorrectly feed him info that the dogs had alerted to cadaver odour ... so a dead body in the appartment?
If that incorrect info was passed to Prior, no wonder he expressed that opinion
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 07:14:32 AM
If Prior said that ... .... did he understand that the so called 'dog alerts' were not alerts to cadaver odour at all.
Did Amaral not understand and erroneously / incorrectly feed him info that the dogs had alerted to cadaver odour ... so a dead body in the apartment?
If that incorrect info was passed to Prior, no wonder he expressed that opinion
Why don't you admit; it we struggle to explain the cadaver dog alert. There was the alert in the bedroom and another in the garden area. A scenario that covers both spots is a body being removed from the apartment and tossed over the balustrade into the garden. You can't give that cadaver a name or a reason for its demise.
You can't just say "did he understand that the so called 'dog alerts' were not alerts to cadaver odour at all". Do cadaver dogs ever produce a genuine alert to a cadaver? I presume you will say "yes". So how can you tell them apart? How do you separate the genuine ones from the false positives?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 08:11:46 AM
He also wrote that calpol was a sedative, Tanner identified Murat and Prior was heard to say that in the UK the McCanns would be arrested on less evidence. So where does that leave us?
Amaral's agenda was to portray the McCanns as child sedaters so it suited his agenda to say that Calpol was a sedative. It would have fitted his agenda better to say that the twins were completely unresponsive that night but he didn't. Therefore we have no reason to believe he is lying about this issue.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:18:57 AM
Amaral's agenda was to portray the McCanns as child sedaters so it suited his agenda to say that Calpol was a sedative. It would have fitted his agenda better to say that the twins were completely unresponsive that night but he didn't. Therefore we have no reason to believe he is lying about this issue.
You are a very deep thinker Alfie. I read your answer a couple of times but I couldn't get it. So I'll revert to humour, you can know he was lying for you can see his lips moving.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 08:57:59 AM
Why would Amaral say the kids woke up that night if they didn't? Someone (one of his mates in the GNR / PJ) must have told him so as he wasn't there, or did he simply invent this detail - if so, to what end?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 09:42:28 AM
Why would Amaral say the kids woke up that night if they didn't? Someone (one of his mates in the GNR / PJ) must have told him so as he wasn't there, or did he simply invent this detail - if so, to what end?
It would be a matter of knowing when did they wake up. If they woke up at 3:00 AM when they were taken to their new apartment, taken outside in the cold night air, that usually wakes up a child. Any effects of the drugs given could have worn off by then. The remarkable thing was that the kids slept through the noise earlier on when Kate was screaming and banging her head.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 10:53:29 AM
Amaral's agenda was to portray the McCanns as child sedaters so it suited his agenda to say that Calpol was a sedative. It would have fitted his agenda better to say that the twins were completely unresponsive that night but he didn't. Therefore we have no reason to believe he is lying about this issue.
Yet still in the first few minutes and hours when Kate thought her remaining children may have been sedated by an unknown drug and while she had the training to know it was imperative for her children's wellbeing that they found out what that drug was she did nothing. Odd doesn't seem an adequate enough description.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2017, 10:58:04 AM
Why don't you admit; it we struggle to explain the cadaver dog alert. There was the alert in the bedroom and another in the garden area. A scenario that covers both spots is a body being removed from the apartment and tossed over the balustrade into the garden. You can't give that cadaver a name or a reason for its demise.
You can't just say "did he understand that the so called 'dog alerts' were not alerts to cadaver odour at all". Do cadaver dogs ever produce a genuine alert to a cadaver? I presume you will say "yes". So how can you tell them apart? How do you separate the genuine ones from the false positives?
It's impossible to show that Eddie gave false alerts in 5A, Rob. Even so, hours are spent spent attempting to discredit his handler, to suggest that the dog was alerting to something else, to suggest that some other body or associated items had been there and, finally, to say the alerts meant nothing.
Of course all these stories can't be correct. The handler is still working in the same field, so he must do his job satisfactorily. The dog knew exactly what he was supposed to find, he had found it before in his career. If he alerted to another body then both he and the handler got it right and the alerts did mean something. The desperate attempts to deny the possibility that the child died in 5A have produced some very imaginative but ultimately contradictory stories.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 11:02:22 AM
Yet still in the first few minutes and hours when Kate thought her remaining children may have been sedated by an unknown drug and while she had the training to know it was imperative for her children's wellbeing that they found out what that drug was she did nothing. Odd doesn't seem an adequate enough description.
she had quite a lot on her mind at the time, but let's forget to mention that shall we? In any case when did it actually occur to Kate that the children might have been sedated? Was it her first thought, in the moments after Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 11:31:59 AM
she had quite a lot on her mind at the time, but let's forget to mention that shall we? In any case when did it actually occur to Kate that the children might have been sedated? Was it her first thought, in the moments after Madeleine's disappearance?
When did it occur to Kate that the children may have been sedated? Straight away when she found them unresponsive I would have thought. Was it her first thought? For the sake of her two remaining children I would have hoped so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
He also wrote that calpol was a sedative, Tanner identified Murat and Prior was heard to say that in the UK the McCanns would be arrested on less evidence. So where does that leave us?
With confirmation that the Portuguese courts were right to indict Amaral for lying.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 11:46:48 AM
According to Amaral the twins did wake up that night - from his book:
– The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
So if he is to be believed (and why would he lie?) then this would probably explain why Kate McCann did not feel the need to rush her children to hospital. They woke up and so were not unresponsive.
But Diane Webster, who was there, says that that was the funny thing, even when the twins were brought out into the cold while being moved to another apartment that they didn't wake. So who are we to believe?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 11:53:31 AM
But Diane Webster, who was there, says that that was the funny thing, even when the twins were brought out into the cold while being moved to another apartment that they didn't wake. So who are we to believe?
Oh dear, a bit of a dilemma for you there - which one is telling the monstrous lie? Surely not Amaral?! Why would he tell such a whopper? Where is the man's moral compass? Can we trust a word of what he wrote in his book is these are the lies he is peddling?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 11:55:59 AM
Why don't you admit; it we struggle to explain the cadaver dog alert. There was the alert in the bedroom and another in the garden area. A scenario that covers both spots is a body being removed from the apartment and tossed over the balustrade into the garden. You can't give that cadaver a name or a reason for its demise.
You can't just say "did he understand that the so called 'dog alerts' were not alerts to cadaver odour at all". Do cadaver dogs ever produce a genuine alert to a cadaver? I presume you will say "yes". So how can you tell them apart? How do you separate the genuine ones from the false positives?
The genuine alerts to the false positive look the same to me. The only reason that we KNOW that the alerts in mistys video are false is because there are so many of them that they cant all be true. There was only one alert in 5A that isn't discreditted by Keelas checking, but it is exactly the same as the alerts in mistus video where we know they are untrue.
I dont struggle at all with understanding the likely meaning of the alerts. I am somewhat dyslexic and a I do have problems, at times, putting my reasons and thoughts into understandable prose tho.
You have to face it, even if it flies against the ideas you have in your theory, the scenario does NOT indicate Cadaver odour in the apartment as Amaral claimed. He diidn't undetrstand it, as it seems you do not either.
There is only one spot where the odour was NOT alerted to by Keela and that can be explained by one of twom different reasons. 1) mistys video and Eddie barking in many corners, in just the same way as Eddie alerted in 5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
2) The fact that Tasmin Milburn Silences Grandpa died whilst living in that apartment, albeit, we are told in hospital. It is customary to return all clothes and belongings to the widow. Even if the pyjamas that he died in had been washed, to the keen nose of a VRD dog, the place that they stood would have reeked of cadaver odour.
Some spouses of deceased partners feel comfort from keeping their ashes near them. That would be especially so at night. Hence the urn may have stood right by the side of the bed where she could touch them, or pick them up, if she needed comfort.
You simply cannot, in any degree of fairness, state that these alerts were evidence or even intelligence, Rob
I know that you fervently believe your theory, but it would be a mistake to allow your decency and judgement to be coloured by your wish for your theory to be correct
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 12:08:36 PM
Oh dear, a bit of a dilemma for you there - which one is telling the monstrous lie? Surely not Amaral?! Why would he tell such a whopper? Where is the man's moral compass? Can we trust a word of what he wrote in his book is these are the lies he is peddling?
No dilemma for me Alfie as I have no particular allegiance to Amaral or belief in what he wrote in his book. What I do know, however, is that Rebelo was still asking the same questions Amaral had asked and some more of his own as can be seen by the rogatory question he wished to be put to the FLO's ( thank you G-Unit).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 01:18:27 PM
No dilemma for me Alfie as I have no particular allegiance to Amaral or belief in what he wrote in his book. What I do know, however, is that Rebelo was still asking the same questions Amaral had asked and some more of his own as can be seen by the rogatory question he wished to be put to the FLO's ( thank you G-Unit).
So why do you think Amaral lied about the twins waking up then?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 02:11:57 PM
I'm not that interested tbh. Similarly you could email the McCanns and ask them why they "lied" about Huelva, or any of the other myriad questions you seem to have concerning their statements and actions instead of asking the forum to keep giving you the answers. Then, when they reply "no comment" or don't reply at all you can accuse them of having something to hide... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 02:43:33 PM
I'm not that interested tbh. Similarly you could email the McCanns and ask them why they "lied" about Huelva, or any of the other myriad questions you seem to have concerning their statements and actions instead of asking the forum to keep giving you the answers. Then, when they reply "no comment" or don't reply at all you can accuse them of having something to hide... 8(0(*
I believe they don't answer emails. Robi tried, without success.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 03:05:16 PM
I believe they don't answer emails. Robi tried, without success.
I think that's very sensible of them because let's face it - if they did, each and every word they wrote would be forensically examined for signs that they dunnit.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2017, 03:31:15 PM
The genuine alerts to the false positive look the same to me. The only reason that we KNOW that the alerts in mistys video are false is because there are so many of them that they cant all be true. There was only one alert in 5A that isn't discreditted by Keelas checking, but it is exactly the same as the alerts in mistus video where we know they are untrue.
I dont struggle at all with understanding the likely meaning of the alerts. I am somewhat dyslexic and a I do have problems, at times, putting my reasons and thoughts into understandable prose tho.
You have to face it, even if it flies against the ideas you have in your theory, the scenario does NOT indicate Cadaver odour in the apartment as Amaral claimed. He diidn't undetrstand it, as it seems you do not either.
There is only one spot where the odour was NOT alerted to by Keela and that can be explained by one of twom different reasons. 1) mistys video and Eddie barking in many corners, in just the same way as Eddie alerted in 5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
2) The fact that Tasmin Milburn Silences Grandpa died whilst living in that apartment, albeit, we are told in hospital. It is customary to return all clothes and belongings to the widow. Even if the pyjamas that he died in had been washed, to the keen nose of a VRD dog, the place that they stood would have reeked of cadaver odour.
Some spouses of deceased partners feel comfort from keeping their ashes near them. That would be especially so at night. Hence the urn may have stood right by the side of the bed where she could touch them, or pick them up, if she needed comfort.
You simply cannot, in any degree of fairness, state that these alerts were evidence or even intelligence, Rob
I know that you fervently believe your theory, but it would be a mistake to allow your decency and judgement to be coloured by your wish for your theory to be correct
The dog alets were intelligence which led to further searches of places and items connected to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 17, 2017, 03:46:24 PM
I'm not that interested tbh. Similarly you could email the McCanns and ask them why they "lied" about Huelva, or any of the other myriad questions you seem to have concerning their statements and actions instead of asking the forum to keep giving you the answers. Then, when they reply "no comment" or don't reply at all you can accuse them of having something to hide... 8(0(*
Why would I ? I know why the McCanns lied about Huelva, Kate told us.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 03:49:12 PM
I believe they don't answer emails. Robi tried, without success.
I've sent information to Operation Grange and to the Investigation site run by the McCanns but I have not tried writing to the McCanns directly (via work or home addresses etc.).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 06:02:29 PM
It's impossible to show that Eddie gave false alerts in 5A, Rob. Even so, hours are spent spent attempting to discredit his handler, to suggest that the dog was alerting to something else, to suggest that some other body or associated items had been there and, finally, to say the alerts meant nothing.
Of course all these stories can't be correct. The handler is still working in the same field, so he must do his job satisfactorily. The dog knew exactly what he was supposed to find, he had found it before in his career. If he alerted to another body then both he and the handler got it right and the alerts did mean something. The desperate attempts to deny the possibility that the child died in 5A have produced some very imaginative but ultimately contradictory stories.
Trying to get back to the OP and not to turn this thread into another dog thread, but still talking about the dogs:
1. If an abductor had overdosed MM and she died how long after death would it be before cadaver odour was detectable 3 months later? There was any strange smell in her apartment so I think we can safely say she was alive that Thursday (i.e. I don't buy into Richards Hall's theory of her being dead most of that week).
2. How long would it take for the substance to take effect and then kill her from an overdose?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 06:15:59 PM
But Diane Webster, who was there, says that that was the funny thing, even when the twins were brought out into the cold while being moved to another apartment that they didn't wake. So who are we to believe?
There are degrees to waking up too aren't there? Like "wake up and get up" is different to "waking up and rolling over a going straight back to sleep".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 06:25:59 PM
It's outright libel to discuss 'cadaver scent'.
There was none.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 06:31:38 PM
See what I mean ? It's like Pavlov's dog @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 06:40:42 PM
This is the reason supporters are desperate to rubbish the dogs at every end. If the alerts are correct, then the McCanns are well and truly in the frame.
It is hard to see why they would have asked or even brought up the issue of sedation use, on Madeleine or the twins, if they had done it themselves.
I see I had made an error in my previous post so I'll repost it with the correction. [word NOT added]
"1. If an abductor had overdosed MM and she died, how long after death would it be before cadaver odour was still detectable 3 months later? There was NOT any strange smells in her apartment so I think we can safely say she was alive that Thursday (i.e. I don't buy into Richards D. Hall's theory of her being dead most of that week. The apartment would have smelt shocking if that was where the cadaver was stored, unless they stuck it in the fridge along with their foodstuff and turned it to "colder").
2. How long would it take for the sedative substances to take effect and then to kill her from an overdose?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2017, 07:10:29 PM
It is hard to see why they would have asked or even brought up the issue of sedation use, on Madeleine or the twins, if they had done it themselves.
I see I had made an error in my previous post so I'll repost it with the correction. [word NOT added]
"1. If an abductor had overdosed MM and she died, how long after death would it be before cadaver odour was still detectable 3 months later? There was NOT any strange smells in her apartment so I think we can safely say she was alive that Thursday (i.e. I don't buy into Richards D. Hall's theory of her being dead most of that week. The apartment would have smelt shocking if that was where the cadaver was stored, unless they stuck it in the fridge along with their foodstuff and turned it to "colder").
2. How long would it take for the sedative substances to take effect and then to kill her from an overdose?
I'm starting to feel if the cadaver odour came from MM and her death (scenario only) had something to do with sedation the substances would have to be given before the McCanns left to go to the Tapas Bar or immediately after (even then the period from 8:30 to 10 it isn't long enough to die from overdose and develop enough cadaver odour to be detectable 3 months later).
Purely hypothetically, if something was given with the before bed snack and then death occurred shortly after from another cause you would have a reason for not surrendering the body and plenty of time for the scent of death to develop.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 07:11:10 PM
It is hard to see why they would have asked or even brought up the issue of sedation use, on Madeleine or the twins, if they had done it themselves.
I see I had made an error in my previous post so I'll repost it with the correction. [word NOT added]
"1. If an abductor had overdosed MM and she died, how long after death would it be before cadaver odour was still detectable 3 months later? There was NOT any strange smells in her apartment so I think we can safely say she was alive that Thursday (i.e. I don't buy into Richards D. Hall's theory of her being dead most of that week. The apartment would have smelt shocking if that was where the cadaver was stored, unless they stuck it in the fridge along with their foodstuff and turned it to "colder").
2. How long would it take for the sedative substances to take effect and then to kill her from an overdose?
I think the view amongst sceptics here is not that MBM was killed by an overdose, but that somehow an overdose of sedative prompted her to wake up, get out of bed and drag a wobbly plastic chair over to the balcony whereupon she clambered up and over the patio stairs, plumeting to her instant death at the bottom. She was then more or less immediately scooped up, chucked into a cupboard whilst the cunning plan was devised (sometime between a chat with a mate and the main course).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 07:12:23 PM
It ever was thus. If you phrase the post carefully enough you will know the response before it has been typed.... 8(>((
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 07:28:14 PM
It would be interesting to know which sedative drug when given in overdose to young children causes them to fall asleep and then suddenly wake up minutes later and start moving fixtures and fittings around and climbing on the furniture. Perhaps Davel will advise.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 07:38:47 PM
I think the view amongst sceptics here is not that MBM was killed by an overdose, but that somehow an overdose of sedative prompted her to wake up, get out of bed and drag a wobbly plastic chair over to the balcony whereupon she clambered up and over the patio stairs, plumeting to her instant death at the bottom. She was then more or less immediately scooped up, chucked into a cupboard whilst the cunning plan was devised (sometime between a chat with a mate and the main course).
Which "sceptics" would they be then?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 07:46:47 PM
Purely hypothetically, if something was given with the before bed snack and then death occurred shortly after from another cause you would have a reason for not surrendering the body and plenty of time for the scent of death to develop.
Yes and then You are investigated by portumgals finest detective who knows exactly what you have done You face years in jail but manage to get away with it So you return to the uk Start a multimillion pound fraudulent fund and spend all the money on detectives You are now guilty of a much more serious crime Write a book and earn a million and still not keep the money for yourself Then having got away with two serious crimes you invite another team of crack detectives to investigate you
If you think that is a realistic situation you must be barmy
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on January 17, 2017, 08:00:21 PM
I have had quite enough of accusations of lying.. This will cease now. Or else.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:03:43 PM
Purely hypothetically, if something was given with the before bed snack and then death occurred shortly after from another cause you would have a reason for not surrendering the body and plenty of time for the scent of death to develop.
Would they have let Matt do the 9:30 check then if that was the case?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 08:05:34 PM
Why not. The time of the alarm might not have been crucial. Hypothetically speaking, you understand.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:09:43 PM
I think the view amongst sceptics here is not that MBM was killed by an overdose, but that somehow an overdose of sedative prompted her to wake up, get out of bed and drag a wobbly plastic chair over to the balcony whereupon she clambered up and over the patio stairs, plumeting to her instant death at the bottom. She was then more or less immediately scooped up, chucked into a cupboard whilst the cunning plan was devised (sometime between a chat with a mate and the main course).
They are certainly quick thinking in that scenario!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
So Matt messed up again did he? Should he have discovered Madeleine missing at that stage?
He certainly messed up in the sense that had he done a proper visual check at 9.30, the time of Madeleine's disappearance would be more accurately known.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on January 17, 2017, 08:26:43 PM
Yes and then You are investigated by portumgals finest detective who knows exactly what you have done You face years in jail but manage to get away with it So you return to the uk Start a multimillion pound fraudulent fund and spend all the money on detectives You are now guilty of a much more serious crime Write a book and earn a million and still not keep the money for yourself Then having got away with two serious crimes you invite another team of crack detectives to investigate you
If you think that is a realistic situation you must be barmy
My thoughts to a tee.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:29:02 PM
He certainly messed up in the sense that had he done a proper visual check at 9.30, the time of Madeleine's disappearance would be more accurately known.
But we were discussing a possible scenario of a dead child (MM) in the room. So if a dead MM was there before his check why would she be gone at 10:00? Certainly an interesting scenario.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 08:33:15 PM
But we were discussing a possible scenario of a dead child (MM) in the room. So if she was there before his check why would she be gone at 10:00? Certainly an interesting scenario.
The point is we don't where she was at 9.30 as Matt did not do a thorough check.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 08:40:05 PM
Today seems to have been a day for hurling innuendo at the McCanns.
Give it a rest!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 08:45:31 PM
Today seems to have been a day for hurling innuendo at the McCanns.
Give it a rest!
In my scenario the McCanns are innocent so there should be no innuendo confronting the McCanns. Here we are discussing a possible scenario but I feel it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 08:49:01 PM
The point (I think) Rob was making is why would you let Matt go and check on your children when you already know one of them is dead?
Yes true, but I also realise that in this proposed scenario the missing child has to be found missing sooner or later so maybe it doesn't matter if Matt discovers the fact sooner or Kate later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 08:58:51 PM
If Madeleine had already been removed, it wouldn't matter who went at 9.30. As it transpired, Matt didn't observe that she wasn't in her bed, so the alarm wasn't raised until 10.pm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 09:01:27 PM
If Madeleine had already been removed, it wouldn't matter who went at 9.30. As it transpired, Matt didn't observe that she wasn't in her bed, so the alarm wasn't raised until 10.pm
If Madeleiene had already been removed there wouldn't have been time for cadaver odour to develop.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
That would depend on when she died, wouldn't it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 09:05:32 PM
Today?! What about yesterday, and the day before that, and the one before that, etc etc...
There seem to be gremlins afoot on the board at the moment, so all I can say is that today I have spent a long time moderating, and the bulk of that has been innuendo about the McCs. Don't ask me why. On other days it is Amaral hunting. On yet others it is open season on Grime.
They all get tidied up or chopped. A waste of time all-round.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 09:11:54 PM
Today seems to have been a day for hurling innuendo at the McCanns.
Give it a rest!
Amaral wrote a book hurling innuendo at the McCanns yet you support him Disgraceful
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 17, 2017, 09:13:49 PM
Impossible to know. We only have people's statements to go on and who knows what is true and what isn't. So little is corroborated by testimony of another person. The whole thing is a conundrum, which is why, almost 10 years on, there is no solution.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 09:14:47 PM
Today seems to have been a day for hurling innuendo at the McCanns.
Give it a rest!
There seem to have been a lot of posts about the impossibility of the dog alerts being a) triggered by the scent of decomposition or b) being connected to the child.
As I see it it's possible for both to be true, but impossible to demonstrate that possibility because the subject seems to be taboo, even hypothetically.
Some accuse the forum of being biased, but those who complain are allowed to speculate in the most ridiculous ways about all and sundry. People are regularly accused of incompetence, lying, conflict of interest, inaccurate translating and interpreting, conspiring to cover up facts, and loads more. On the whole, no cites or evidence are provided to support these accusations but they are allowed to stand.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 09:29:59 PM
You stated a positive. Namely that I am pro-Amaral, which happens not to be true. And that I am anti-McCann, which happens not to be true.
So it is up to you to provide evidence of who is the donkey.
You have repeatedly refused to back up your claims with cites telling me to do my own donkey work It's called getting a taste of your own medicine The fact you don't like it is your problem So what do you think of amarals book of lies
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 09:52:36 PM
You have repeatedly refused to back up your claims with cites telling me to do my own donkey work It's called getting a taste of your own medicine The fact you don't like it is your problem So what do you think of amarals book of lies
Note how you dodged there.
I stuck up a moderator's note to get the forum to stop posting libellous material about the McCanns.
You came back saying I am an Amaral supporter, and anti-McCann. Without providing a single shred of evidence.
Do you ever do your own donkey work?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 09:58:32 PM
I stuck up a moderator's note to get the forum to stop posting libellous material about the McCanns.
You came back saying I am an Amaral supporter, and anti-McCann. Without providing a single shred of evidence.
Do you ever do your own donkey work?
Simply give us your opinion on amarals book You won't be able to answer because you will prove my point And by not answering you prove my point Donkey work done
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 10:03:27 PM
Months back I was going to ask everyone to declare their positions. Then we wouldn't have to guess it. I am for the McCanns for I could imagine Madeleine being still alive, but I also believe in the dog alerts and I largely support Amaral. One might think it is impossible to have all those views but it is not.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 11:22:09 PM
It would have to have been before the McCanns left the apartment in that scenario which I'm sure you'd agree makes the theory even less plausible.
It only makes sense to think Madeleine was alive when they put her to bed, but there is an hour between that and going to the Tapas. Could Madeleine have died from a brain bled during those events, i.e 7:30 - 8:30 or even later, but then when Gerry checks and turned the light on wouldn't he notice she wasn't breathing? No matter how beautiful she was.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 07:02:15 AM
Any scenario that involved Madeleine dying in the apartment kills the idea of a kidnapper. It could account for the cadaver odour in the bedroom. It would not need opened windows and raised shutters, so the claim of staged scene could account for that. There is a real problem with the logistics of getting rid of the body and hiding it. - still not impossible. It would not require the twins to be sedated. (Therefore no need to test them.)
No wonder Amaral went with this scenario. Problem is whether Madeleine was alive and well when Gerry did his check. But that observation is negated if Amaral really believes this scenario.
Basic problem is that there is no proof, and Madeleine's body was not found, yet he turns that dilemma around by suggesting a frozen cadaver was in the rear of the Renault, but the DNA result did not confirm that. But would the doctors do this to their daughter if it was the result of accidental death from a unknown cause?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 08:02:10 AM
Simply give us your opinion on amarals book You won't be able to answer because you will prove my point And by not answering you prove my point Donkey work done
You have asked for proof that you support amaral You have not been able to give me an opinion on his book Because if you did it would prove you support amaral Simple
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 08:31:07 AM
You have asked for proof that you support amaral You have not been able to give me an opinion on his book Because if you did it would prove you support amaral Simple
You have to admit Amaral's hypothesis was pretty good.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 08:34:42 AM
To anyone who understands the evidence it was risible
Well do you have a complete theory covering the first hour? Just tell us what happened between 9:30 - 10:30 that night? Do sedatives come into it? It is poor practice to laugh at someone's hypothesis unless you have something to prove it wrong. Or do you have an alternative that can stand scrutiny?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 09:18:29 AM
You have to admit Amaral's hypothesis was pretty good.
You'll be hard pressed to find a McCann-dunnit aficionado who thinks Amaral's hypothesis was "pretty good" these days. It's got more holes than Swiss cheese.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 09:21:37 AM
You'll be hard pressed to find a McCann-dunnit aficionado who thinks Amaral's hypothesis was "pretty good" these days. It's got more holes than Swiss cheese.
Its not perfect. Swiss cheese sounds good.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 09:29:52 AM
It's been attempted several times, but I have seen no plausible logical theory of abduction.
It customarily falls at the second (first?) fence; for predictable reasons!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 04:53:56 PM
an abduction woud have been very simple....according to the expert on the Disaptches programme
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 04:55:41 PM
It's strange that the duffers of the PJ, Scotland Yard and the Portuguese prosecutors are the ones who insist on abduction, while the real experts, specifically, the sceptic-community of this board, are the only ones who know!
Odd, that ....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 04:56:23 PM
It's strange that the duffers of the PJ, Scotland Yard and the Portuguese prosecutors are the ones who insist on abduction, while the real experts, specifically, the sceptic-community of this board, are the only ones who know!
Odd, that ....
Even odder that despite this knowledge, they have no culprit
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 05:45:19 PM
Even odder that despite this knowledge, they have no culprit
It's not odd is it? We all know that Claudia Lawrence was abducted and murdered but we don't know who did it. Do you think it's odd that no cuplrit has been found despite £1m being spent trying to find one, or just unfortunate?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on January 18, 2017, 05:47:44 PM
It's not odd is it? We all know that Claudia Lawrence was abducted and murdered but we don't know who did it. Do you think it's odd that no cuplrit has been found despite £1m being spent trying to find one, or just unfortunate?
No we don't. Police believe that to be so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2017, 06:03:26 PM
It's strange that the duffers of the PJ, Scotland Yard and the Portuguese prosecutors are the ones who insist on abduction, while the real experts, specifically, the sceptic-community of this board, are the only ones who know!
Odd, that ....
What is odd is your post. Please provide cites showing the PJ, SY and the Portuguese prosecutors insisting on abduction.
What is it that your mythical 'community' know, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 06:04:30 PM
It is the only plausible, logical theory. Her family have accepted it, the police have treated it as a murder enquiry, now do you find it odd that culprit has not been found, if so why?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2017, 06:09:23 PM
It is the only plausible, logical theory. Her family have accepted it, the police have treated it as a murder enquiry, now do you find it odd that culprit has not been found, if so why?
What it has to do with the alleged abduction of a three year old in Portugal I cannot imagine. Particularly on a thread about alleged sedation of the child's siblings?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 06:12:10 PM
What it has to do with the alleged abduction of a three year old in Portugal I cannot imagine. Particularly on a thread about alleged sedation of the child's siblings?
I suggest you read it in context then. Apparently it is "odd" according to Jassi that the Met, though treating Madeleine's disappearance as a case of stranger abduction, have not found the culprit. There is nothing odd about it, just unfortunate, same as in other cases where, despite spending huge amounts of money and resources no culprit is found.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2017, 07:05:31 PM
I suggest you read it in context then. Apparently it is "odd" according to Jassi that the Met, though treating Madeleine's disappearance as a case of stranger abduction, have not found the culprit. There is nothing odd about it, just unfortunate, same as in other cases where, despite spending huge amounts of money and resources no culprit is found.
Is it a fact they are treating the disappearance as a case of stranger abduction? I don't think that's quite as cut and dried as some people like to pretend it is. The only quote containing the word 'abduction' on the Met's website is from the McCanns, the Met refer to her 'disappearance'; http://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-the-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-135459
In the final analysis, of course, the case is not theirs, either. They are assisting the Portuguese because it's their case. It's very different from a UK case in that respect, because they don't have full control of the investigation, full access to any suspects, or the final word on anything.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 18, 2017, 07:16:12 PM
Is it a fact they are treating the disappearance as a case of stranger abduction? I don't think that's quite as cut and dried as some people like to pretend it is. The only quote containing the word 'abduction' on the Met's website is from the McCanns, the Met refer to her 'disappearance'; http://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-the-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-135459
In the final analysis, of course, the case is not theirs, either. They are assisting the Portuguese because it's their case. It's very different from a UK case in that respect, because they don't have full control of the investigation, full access to any suspects, or the final word on anything.
If neither the Met nor the PJ are treating the case as one of stranger abduction perhaps you can explain why the PJ made a number of locals arguidos? And why Andy Redwood did an appeal as part of Operation Grange concerning sex attacks on young British girls on the Algarve? Was it just to throw the "real" culprits off the scent?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 18, 2017, 11:48:36 PM
If neither the Met nor the PJ are treating the case as one of stranger abduction perhaps you can explain why the PJ made a number of locals arguidos? And why Andy Redwood did an appeal as part of Operation Grange concerning sex attacks on young British girls on the Algarve? Was it just to throw the "real" culprits off the scent?
Are the locals still arguidos? I believe they were given that status almost 3 years ago and very much doubt it still applies. And if OG are following the sex attacks lead why question Robert Murat, his wife and John Hill and his wife?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 11:55:22 PM
Are the locals still arguidos? I believe they were given that status almost 3 years ago and very much doubt it still applies. And if OG are following the sex attacks lead why question Robert Murat, his wife and John Hill and his wife?
There are many unanswered questions.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 19, 2017, 07:44:17 AM
In the scheme of things it would make no difference if the kids were drugged or not, we would never be certain who gave it to them if they did. I have finished making any investigation into the use of sedatives.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 19, 2017, 09:08:00 AM
Are the locals still arguidos? I believe they were given that status almost 3 years ago and very much doubt it still applies. And if OG are following the sex attacks lead why question Robert Murat, his wife and John Hill and his wife?
I don't think the locals are still arguidos but that doesn't really address my question. why would these individuals have been made arguidos if they were not pursuing stranger abduction? And, even if they are no longer arguidos why should that mean that stranger abduction is off the cards? And whoever said Robert Murat, his wife and John Hill were questioned specifically about sex attacks? Not long ago you posited the belief that Jane Tanner had come forward with some highly significant information that meant the whole focus of the operation shifted. Now we both know what sort of information you think she may have come forward with (years ago now btw) - which begs the question: why wasn't the person she supposedly squealed on made an arguido, if the parents were still in the frame?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2017, 10:17:13 AM
I don't think the locals are still arguidos but that doesn't really address my question. why would these individuals have been made arguidos if they were not pursuing stranger abduction? And, even if they are no longer arguidos why should that mean that stranger abduction is off the cards? And whoever said Robert Murat, his wife and John Hill were questioned specifically about sex attacks? Not long ago you posited the belief that Jane Tanner had come forward with some highly significant information that meant the whole focus of the operation shifted. Now we both know what sort of information you think she may have come forward with (years ago now btw) - which begs the question: why wasn't the person she supposedly squealed on made an arguido, if the parents were still in the frame?
We have no idea why the men brought in your the PJ was made arguidos. Perhaps the questions they were going to be asked incriminated them in some way but weren't directly connected to the case? You must admit that Robert Murat et al are a strange group of interviewees if you are looking at abduction though.
As to the person Tanner may or may not have 'squealed on if they are British nationals who are lawyered up that could be the reason no one has as yet been made arguidos?
I do find David Payne's disappearance fro the narrative also very interesting.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 19, 2017, 11:35:07 AM
We have no idea why the men brought in your the PJ was made arguidos. Perhaps the questions they were going to be asked incriminated them in some way but weren't directly connected to the case? You must admit that Robert Murat et al are a strange group of interviewees if you are looking at abduction though.
As to the person Tanner may or may not have 'squealed on if they are British nationals who are lawyered up that could be the reason no one has as yet been made arguidos?
I do find David Payne's disappearance fro the narrative also very interesting.
Robert Murat was not connected to the McCanns so even stranger to be interviewed if it was them wot dunnit. I think if the PJ wanted to make any of the original arguidos arguidos again I can't see what legal process would prevent them from doing so, but perhaps someone with more PT legal expertise can shed some light on this. I would think it absolutely imperative for the individual in question to be arrested and interviewed under caution if such allegations had come to light. As for David Payne, why should there be any focus on him?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2017, 12:04:02 PM
Robert Murat was not connected to the McCanns so even stranger to be interviewed if it was them wot dunnit. I think if the PJ wanted to make any of the original arguidos arguidos again I can't see what legal process would prevent them from doing so, but perhaps someone with more PT legal expertise can shed some light on this. I would think it absolutely imperative for the individual in question to be arrested and interviewed under caution if such allegations had come to light. As for David Payne, why should there be any focus on him?
Murat translated so perhaps he was being questioned in that regard?
Again UK nationals could not be made arguidos if they reside in the U.K.
As to DP I didn't say the focus was on him simply that it was strange he had been wiped from the narrative.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 19, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Murat translated so perhaps he was being questioned in that regard?
Again UK nationals could not be made arguidos if they reside in the U.K.
As to .... ...... I didn't say the focus was on him simply that it was strange he had been wiped from the narrative.
1)Why would Murat being the translator shed any light on anything with regard parental involvement? Unless you think the parents confessed to him and he forgot to translate it. @)(++(* 2) So, if the Met decide the McCanns dunnit then what? 3) In what way has DP been wiped from the narrative? Can you give me an example of where he was in the narrative and is now no longer in the narrative? Who did the wiping?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2017, 12:24:18 PM
1)Why would Murat being the translator shed any light on anything with regard parental involvement? Unless you think the parents confessed to him and he forgot to translate it. @)(++(* 2) So, if the Met decide the McCanns dunnit then what? 3) In what way has .... ...... been wiped from the narrative? Can you give me an example of where he was in the narrative and is now no longer in the narrative? Who did the wiping?
His role as a translator was simply one option. Perhaps it was linked to the fact that the Tapas friends allegedly tried to set him up?
Perhaps the fact that individuals from the Crown Prosecution service were involved at one point is relevant?
The Crimewatch programme.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 19, 2017, 12:56:09 PM
His role as a translator was simply one option. Perhaps it was linked to the fact that the Tapas friends allegedly tried to set him up?
Perhaps the fact that individuals from the Crown Prosecution service were involved at one point is relevant?
The Crimewatch programme.
I think you're on very dodgy ground here, the implication being (though you have previously denied it) of some sort of conspiracy involving numerous individuals. All tremendously improbable, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 19, 2017, 06:35:47 PM
I think you're on very dodgy ground here, the implication being (though you have previously denied it) of some sort of conspiracy involving numerous individuals. All tremendously improbable, I'm afraid.
That's what they said about Hillsborough.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 19, 2017, 06:55:30 PM
The press swallowed it hook line and sinker; The Sun is still not welcome in Liverpool.
in the immediate aftermath of the event yes, but if you can provide any evidence at all of the press or of large swathes of the population who claimed a cover up was "highly improbable" in the intervening years then I'd be interested to read it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 09:04:51 AM
in the immediate aftermath of the event yes, but if you can provide any evidence at all of the press or of large swathes of the population who claimed a cover up was "highly improbable" in the intervening years then I'd be interested to read it.
The fact that it took so long for the families to get action says it all. They didn't feel supported;
Upon receiving the April 2016 verdict, Hillsborough Family Support Group chair Margaret Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son James was killed in the disaster, said: "Let's be honest about this – people were against us. We had the media against us, as well as the establishment. Everything was against us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 09:20:35 AM
The fact that it took so long for the families to get action says it all. They didn't feel supported;
Upon receiving the April 2016 verdict, Hillsborough Family Support Group chair Margaret Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son James was killed in the disaster, said: "Let's be honest about this – people were against us. We had the media against us, as well as the establishment. Everything was against us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster
This is rather off-topic but as you have been unable to provide anything to back up the cite that people believed a cover-up by the police and authorities was "highly improbable" I guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 20, 2017, 06:25:26 PM
This is rather off-topic but as you have been unable to provide anything to back up the cite that people believed a cover-up by the police and authorities was "highly improbable" I guess we'll just have to leave it there.
Many, many UK citizens believed for a long time that such a large cover-up, especially among such highly respected individuals, was absolutely improbable, but it happened.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
Many, many UK citizens believed for a long time that such a large cover-up, especially among such highly respected individuals, was absolutely improbable, but it happened.
Cite please, otherwise it's just your opinon.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 09:35:45 PM
So it seems Faithlilly, having previously claimed no conspiracy and cover up in this case is now arguing for the opposite. A cover-up involving numerous highly respected individuals it would seem, righty-ho then.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2017, 11:17:26 PM
So it seems Faithlilly, having previously claimed no conspiracy and cover up in this case is now arguing for the opposite. A cover-up involving numerous highly respected individuals it would seem, righty-ho then.
I'm not a believer in conspiracies, self interest tends to provide ample motivation for actions that are usually attributed to conspiracies.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 11:39:19 PM
I'm not a believer in conspiracies, self interest tends to provide ample motivation for actions that are usually attributed to conspiracies.
Unfortunately for those that are convinced the parents dunnit all theories require that at least one but usually many more of the Tapas group were inolved in a cover-up, something which (unlike Hillsborough) is highly implausible, unless we go down the route that this group were all involved in serious wrong-doing from the off, somethng for which there is zero evidence (again unlike Hillsborough).
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2017, 11:42:12 PM
Unfortunately for those that are convinced the parents dunnit all theories require that at least one but usually many more of the Tapas group were inolved in a cover-up, something which (unlike Hillsborough) is highly implausible, unless we go down the route that this group were all involved in serious wrong-doing from the off, somethng for which there is zero evidence (again unlike Hillsborough).
...and those little whites lies which some seem to find so innocent quickly entrap those saying them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 20, 2017, 11:43:51 PM
Unfortunately for those that are convinced the parents dunnit all theories require that at least one but usually many more of the Tapas group were inolved in a cover-up, something which (unlike Hillsborough) is highly implausible, unless we go down the route that this group were all involved in serious wrong-doing from the off, somethng for which there is zero evidence (again unlike Hillsborough).
The parents dunnit theories do not all involve conspiracies.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 11:48:39 PM
The parents dunnit theories do not all involve conspiracies.
Perhaps you could describe one that doens't involve any cover up or conspiracy then, one in which the only guilty parties are the parents themselves and which is both logical and plausible. Bet you can't!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 20, 2017, 11:49:41 PM
Perhaps you could describe one that doens't involve any cover up or conspiracy then, one in which the only guilty parties are the parents themselves. Bet you can't!
Of course I can, very simply.
Without evidence to prove that it happened that way, the libel rule restricts me from posting.
But to say I can't- tosh! Amaral wrote one. I could write at least two more.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 21, 2017, 12:01:52 AM
Amaral's theory was neither plausible nor logical. You are welcome to post me your theory by PM if you're scared of committing libel on the board.
Rebelo also questioned the parents and their friend's part in Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 21, 2017, 11:37:26 AM
Oh look, 3 ad hom posts in a row from my little fan club. Actually, I'm not remotely interested in "entrapping" anyone, only of exposing the paucity of your arguments. Lucky for you guys you are able to hide behind the skirts of the libel rules on this forum to prevent you having to face reality. The reality is there is no logical and plausible theory of parental involvement.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 21, 2017, 11:37:45 AM
Oh look, 3 ad hom posts in a row from my little fan club. Actually, I'm not remotely interested in "entrapping" anyone, only of exposing the paucity of your arguments. Lucky for you guys you are able to hide behind the skirts of the libel rules on this forum to prevent you having to face reality. The reality is there is no logical and plausible theory of parental involvement.
And you sit on this forum almost 24/7 to tell us so ( when do you get any work done Alfie? )
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on January 21, 2017, 11:50:46 AM
Amaral's theory was neither plausible nor logical. You are welcome to post me your theory by PM if you're scared of committing libel on the board.
Your opinion of Amaral's theory is precisely that, your opinion.
We have been through this loop before.
I have no intention of PMing you with anything.
You are proposing a bog-standard creativity test used by each of the 3 FTSE 100 companies who employed me. 'Team, think of as many ways as you can that ...'. A creativity test is not subject to rules of evidence. Libel is.
I do not have the evidence to prove exactly what happened. It would seem that OG, you and everyone else is in the same boat.
Otherwise the perpetrator would have been nabbed by Britain's finest. Surely?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 02:58:56 PM
Here is an interesting piece of research dome by G-unit. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7878.msg377317#msg377317 "It would be interesting to know who had hay fever and why they were using a remedy that was only available on a 'named patient' basis.
terfenadine is only available in the UK on a named-patient basis through specialist importers. There are no longer any licensed preparations containing terfenadine available in the UK (November 2005) http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=-1576665050
unlicensed medicines can be imported/used in the UK for the ‘special needs’ of an individual doctor’s patient. This is known as ‘named patient’ supply. Unlicensed medicines can only be prescribed by physicians if they are satisfied that there are no suitable licensed alternatives. http://www.durbinglobal.com/assets/files/Imports/Unlicensedmeds.pdf
Before Madeleine's disappearance, I had only consulted Kate McCann once and never had assisted Gerry, nor ever had reason to deal with the twins Sean and Amelie http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICHARD_SCHOFIELD.htm
Their doctor of 14 months doesn't mentioned prescribing it for Madeleine, but then he doesn't mention if he ever saw Madeleine at all."
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on January 21, 2017, 03:06:56 PM
Your opinion of Amaral's theory is precisely that, your opinion.
We have been through this loop before.
I have no intention of PMing you with anything.
You are proposing a bog-standard creativity test used by each of the 3 FTSE 100 companies who employed me. 'Team, think of as many ways as you can that ...'. A creativity test is not subject to rules of evidence. Libel is.
I do not have the evidence to prove exactly what happened. It would seem that OG, you and everyone else is in the same boat.
Otherwise the perpetrator would have been nabbed by Britain's finest. Surely?
You have hit the nail squarely on the head there,if the telling piece of evidence that leads to any one in relation to the disappearance,just happens to not exist whether by accident or design then there will be no resolution any time soon. But saying that £12+ million and 5 yrs must count for something when just £1 million brings an end to current investigation into the disappearance in the Claudia Lawrence case.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 21, 2017, 04:11:12 PM
You have hit the nail squarely on the head there,if the telling piece of evidence that leads to any one in relation to the disappearance,just happens to not exist whether by accident or design then there will be no resolution any time soon. But saying that £12+ million and 5 yrs must count for something when just £1 million brings an end to current investigation into the disappearance in the Claudia Lawrence case.
Have you considered that the reason for all this searching is
1) That they think they know who took Madeleine ... but no clues to Claudias disappearance? 2) And that maybe there is a big international group of traffickers behind Madeleines disappearace ... and they are prepared to put the effort in to nail them and hopefully stop them for ever?
Trouble is that The Phoenix always rises again. Even Harry Potter knows that, thanks to Dumbledore ?>)()< I think JK Rowling knows a thing or two about the Phoenicians ?>)()<
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on January 21, 2017, 04:16:39 PM
The only ones to mention any thing about any traffickers is the press,OG rightly so aren't telling any one any thing. Have a good look at the last bit of crap news,a glaring piece of journalism in there.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 04:26:47 PM
Your opinion of Amaral's theory is precisely that, your opinion.
We have been through this loop before.
I have no intention of PMing you with anything.
You are proposing a bog-standard creativity test used by each of the 3 FTSE 100 companies who employed me. 'Team, think of as many ways as you can that ...'. A creativity test is not subject to rules of evidence. Libel is.
I do not have the evidence to prove exactly what happened. It would seem that OG, you and everyone else is in the same boat.
Otherwise the perpetrator would have been nabbed by Britain's finest. Surely?
support for amaral from you as expected...a convicted criminal and a book written based on his inability to understand teh evidence
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 04:30:37 PM
You have hit the nail squarely on the head there,if the telling piece of evidence that leads to any one in relation to the disappearance,just happens to not exist whether by accident or design then there will be no resolution any time soon. But saying that £12+ million and 5 yrs must count for something when just £1 million brings an end to current investigation into the disappearance in the Claudia Lawrence case.
the reason 12 mill has been spent is simply down to the amount of evidence taht has had to be analysed....thats all
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 21, 2017, 04:53:07 PM
Your opinion of Amaral's theory is precisely that, your opinion.
We have been through this loop before.
I have no intention of PMing you with anything.
You are proposing a bog-standard creativity test used by each of the 3 FTSE 100 companies who employed me. 'Team, think of as many ways as you can that ...'. A creativity test is not subject to rules of evidence. Libel is.
I do not have the evidence to prove exactly what happened. It would seem that OG, you and everyone else is in the same boat.
Otherwise the perpetrator would have been nabbed by Britain's finest. Surely?
According to you there at least 3 plausible and logical scenarios of parental involvement. I firmly dispute that. I don't think there is one. Your opinion versus mine. And if the mention (yet again) of the 3 FTSE 100 companies that allegedly employed you as is supposed to give your opinion more weight than mine can I just say (to quote the lovely Shania Twain) "that don't impress me much".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 21, 2017, 05:23:43 PM
Could we restrict the logical and plausible comments to the thread you created. TY
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 06:03:54 PM
According to you there at least 3 plausible and logical scenarios of parental involvement. I firmly dispute that. I don't think there is one. Your opinion versus mine. And if the mention (yet again) of the 3 FTSE 100 companies that allegedly employed you as is supposed to give your opinion more weight than mine can I just say (to quote the lovely Shania Twain) "that don't impress me much".
I said I can come up with two.
And I was never impressed by the type of creative thinking test you are suggesting when I was employed by those 3 FTSE 100 companies. It all seemed so desperately childish then.
And I am not trying to impress you now. That makes s*d all difference in progressing my understanding of what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alfie on January 21, 2017, 06:38:46 PM
And I was never impressed by the type of creative thinking test you are suggesting when I was employed by those 3 FTSE 100 companies. It all seemed so desperately childish then.
And I am not trying to impress you now. That makes s*d all difference in progressing my understanding of what happened to Madeleine.
You said you can come up with two, and you cited Amaral's as another - that adds up to 3, which gives me a superb opportunity to mention my Maths O Level (Grade C) achievement. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 21, 2017, 06:53:19 PM
You said you can come up with two, and you cited Amaral's as another - that adds up to 3, which gives me a superb opportunity to mention my Maths O Level (Grade C) achievement. @)(++(*
You must be one of the newer fellas*. It was 1 down to 8 in my day.
* Bing Crosby to Frank Sinatra in High Society.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 07:00:26 PM
And I was never impressed by the type of creative thinking test you are suggesting when I was employed by those 3 FTSE 100 companies. It all seemed so desperately childish then.
And I am not trying to impress you now. That makes s*d all difference in progressing my understanding of what happened to Madeleine.
you are certinly not impressing me with your continual reference to being employed by a FTSE 100 company although you continual reference to it suggests you think I should be impressed
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 21, 2017, 07:54:29 PM
you are certinly not impressing me with your continual reference to being employed by a FTSE 100 company although you continual reference to it suggests you think I should be impressed
May I ask why I should be trying to impress you? Hmmm.
Does whoever impresses you have anything to do with the topic?
Are you and Alfie trying to divert us from topic? Namely, Kate McCann. Twins. Drugged.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 09:09:47 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7878.msg377383#msg377383 G-Unit asks this important question: "I was wondering who had hay fever. It doesn't seem to have been Gerry or the twins as they hadn't seen their GP. That means Kate or Madeleine. Why that particular drug though? Surely there were other licensed drugs available?"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 10:34:49 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7878.msg377432#msg377432 Alfie asks "Why should it matter who was prescribed a non sedative anti-histamine? Would this non-sedative drug be the same drug some of you think caused the twins to be unresponsive?"
If they were prescribed for Madeleine they rightfully shouldn't be given to the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 22, 2017, 12:25:59 AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7878.msg377432#msg377432 Alfie asks "Why should it matter who was prescribed a non sedative anti-histamine? Would this non-sedative drug be the same drug some of you think caused the twins to be unresponsive?"
If they were prescribed for Madeleine they rightfully shouldn't be given to the twins.
And who says they were ? ..... cite please Rob
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 22, 2017, 12:32:06 AM
I'm not actually claiming anything other than mentioning the responsibility of not giving prescription drugs to those they aren't named on the prescription: "If they were prescribed for Madeleine they rightfully shouldn't be given to the twins".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 22, 2017, 12:44:00 AM
I'm not actually claiming anything other than mentioning the responsibility of not giving prescription drugs to those they aren't named on the prescription: "If they were prescribed for Madeleine they rightfully shouldn't be given to the twins".
That's what you may mean, but it is kind of suggestive that it means that she did. And there is no reason to believe that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 22, 2017, 01:48:12 AM
That's what you may mean, but it is kind of suggestive that it means that she did. And there is no reason to believe that.
The door to the apartment was unlocked so anyone could have given the drugs to the twins, if it was done at all. In some countries doctors would not be allowed to prescribe for their family members.
"Statement on providing care to yourself and those close to you You may find yourself in circumstances where you must decide whether it is appropriate to provide treatment to yourself, family members or those close to you. In these situations, it is important that you consider and reflect on your ethical and professional obligations as a doctor. The Medical Council (‘Council’) expects that you will not provide care to yourself or those close to you in the vast majority of clinical situations. Council recognises that there are exceptional circumstances 1. where treatment of those close to you may be unavoidable, and you may treat those close to you only when the overall management of their care is monitored by an independent registered health practitioner. 2. In these instances, it is your responsibility as a doctor to ensure that the care you provide meets acceptable clinical and ethical standards of the profession. Wherever possible, you should avoid treating people with whom you have a personal relationship rather than a professional relationship as providing care to yourself or those close to you may be inappropriate due to discontinuity of care and the lack of clinical objectivity. An objective assessment of the patient’s medical condition is imperative to ensure good practice and care. As such, Council expects you to have your own general practitioner, and for your family and those you are close to to seek advice from an independent registered health practitioner.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 22, 2017, 11:05:16 PM
The door to the apartment was unlocked so anyone could have given the drugs to the twins, if it was done at all.
-snip-
The front door to the appartment required a key to get in, because it was single locked.
The patio door was not locked ... it was closed, so looked locked. It was overlooked by the tapas group at a distance of 50 metres and was illuminated by the street lamp opposite.
Furthermore, CI Gancalo Amaral publicly stated that no intruder would go in that way because it was so overlooked by the Tapas group
Have you forgotten this Rob ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 22, 2017, 11:22:49 PM
The front door to the appartment required a key to get in, because it was single locked.
The patio door was not locked ... it was closed, so looked locked. It was overlooked by the tapas group at a distance of 50 metres and was illuminated by the street lamp opposite.
Furthermore, CI Goncalo Amaral publicly stated that no intruder would go in that way because it was so overlooked by the Tapas group
Have you forgotten this Rob ?
I must have. That is his opinion but it didn't seem to be confirmed by the former English investigators.
Dispatches: Searching for Madeleine - Chan 4 - 18 October 2007 Good place to start. https://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=701
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2017, 01:11:52 AM
I must have. That is his opinion but it didn't seem to be confirmed by the former English investigators.
Dispatches: Searching for Madeleine - Chan 4 - 18 October 2007 Good place to start. https://youtu.be/InJLmyakzeE?t=701
Rob, I have been there. I have sat in the Tapas restaurant and eaten a meal looking at the apartment. The Mccanns sat a couple of metres, or so, farther west in the Tapas Restaurant than we did, but they did NOT have the view that the British detectives say they did.
1) The photo and all their analyses are incorrectly taken from the Tapas BAR, not the restaurant. They have come to the wrong conclusions based upon false initial data. The angle that they looked from is far more acute than the actual angle the friends looked from .... and this causes the parents bedroom wall, which sticks forward, to hide most of the patio window. Whereas where we sat, within the restaurant, we could see virtually all the patio window because the bedroom wall did not hide it.
So the wrong angle gave false information
2) Foliage grows at an amazing rate in the western Algarve. At the time of the abduction they had just been pruned for the summer and were at their shortest. When we were there they were short and we could see most of tghe patio window. I have no idea about the growth on the bushes when the Brits were there, but I think in the season they grow some 3 feet, before pruning back again.
So probably the wrong height and overall bulk of the bushes, which masked a good deal more of the patiio windows, giving a false impression..
In other words, it seems the officers made a cock up of the whole thing related to what the Tapas group could see from their seats.
Interestingly, almost all the press photos are also from completely the wrong angle, giving a totally incorrect view of what the Tapas group could see. Also many media reports said that they were in the tapas bar. They were NOT, they were in the restaurant which is quite seperate from the bar.
In this case, not HiDeHos fault, but wrong info. again.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 01:52:11 AM
The detectives certainly believed it a possibilty that she got out and wandered off down the road.
VIDEO 5.20
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2017, 02:26:27 AM
Rob, I have been there. I have sat in the Tapas restaurant and eaten a meal looking at the apartment. The Mccanns sat a couple of metres, or so, farther west in the Tapas Restaurant than we did, but they did NOT have the view that the British detectives say they did.
1) The photo and all their analyses are incorrectly taken from the Tapas BAR, not the restaurant. They have come to the wrong conclusions based upon false initial data. The angle that they looked from is far more acute than the actual angle the friends looked from .... and this causes the parents bedroom wall, which sticks forward, to hide most of the patio window. Whereas where we sat, within the restaurant, we could see virtually all the patio window because the bedroom wall did not hide it.
So the wrong angle gave false information
2) Foliage grows at an amazing rate in the western Algarve. At the time of the abduction they had just been pruned for the summer and were at their shortest. When we were there they were short and we could see most of tghe patio window. I have no idea about the growth on the bushes when the Brits were there, but I think in the season they grow some 3 feet, before pruning back again.
So probably the wrong height and overall bulk of the bushes, which masked a good deal more of the patiio windows, giving a false impression..
In other words, it seems the officers made a cock up of the whole thing related to what the Tapas group could see from their seats.
Interestingly, almost all the press photos are also from completely the wrong angle, giving a totally incorrect view of what the Tapas group could see. Also many media reports said that they were in the tapas bar. They were NOT, they were in the restaurant which is quite seperate from the bar.
In this case, not HiDeHos fault, but wrong info. again.
I would like to run the experiment. You sit at the restaurant and I'll see if I can sneak in to 5A without you noticing at 9:30 -10:00 PM in May. -
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 03:09:49 AM
I would like to run the experiment. You sit at the restaurant and I'll see if I can sneak in to 5A without you noticing at 9:30 -10:00 PM in May. -
I don't think one would notice the patio door opening at 60 metres and especially in the dark through plastic sheeting windows as was fitted to the tapas restaurant.
I don't think one would notice the patio door opening at 60 metres and especially in the dark through plastic sheeting windows as was fitted to the tapas restaurant.
Try running the seating plan past those who actually had a view of 5A.
Might come back to this in future, cos it is interesting.
At the moment, I am up to my neck in phone calls that night.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2017, 07:28:50 AM
Rob, I have been there. I have sat in the Tapas restaurant and eaten a meal looking at the apartment. The Mccanns sat a couple of metres, or so, farther west in the Tapas Restaurant than we did, but they did NOT have the view that the British detectives say they did.
1) The photo and all their analyses are incorrectly taken from the Tapas BAR, not the restaurant. They have come to the wrong conclusions based upon false initial data. The angle that they looked from is far more acute than the actual angle the friends looked from .... and this causes the parents bedroom wall, which sticks forward, to hide most of the patio window. Whereas where we sat, within the restaurant, we could see virtually all the patio window because the bedroom wall did not hide it.
So the wrong angle gave false information
2) Foliage grows at an amazing rate in the western Algarve. At the time of the abduction they had just been pruned for the summer and were at their shortest. When we were there they were short and we could see most of tghe patio window. I have no idea about the growth on the bushes when the Brits were there, but I think in the season they grow some 3 feet, before pruning back again.
So probably the wrong height and overall bulk of the bushes, which masked a good deal more of the patiio windows, giving a false impression..
In other words, it seems the officers made a cock up of the whole thing related to what the Tapas group could see from their seats.
Interestingly, almost all the press photos are also from completely the wrong angle, giving a totally incorrect view of what the Tapas group could see. Also many media reports said that they were in the tapas bar. They were NOT, they were in the restaurant which is quite seperate from the bar.
In this case, not HiDeHos fault, but wrong info. again.
They weren't seated inside the restaurant, but on the esplanade.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on January 23, 2017, 08:55:38 AM
The front door to the appartment required a key to get in, because it was single locked.
The patio door was not locked ... it was closed, so looked locked. It was overlooked by the tapas group at a distance of 50 metres and was illuminated by the street lamp opposite.
Overlooked is stretching it a bit don't you think.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 23, 2017, 10:00:38 AM
Overlooked is stretching it a bit don't you think.
Just a bit! The street lamp which "illuminates" the apartment is the same street lamp which offers little illumination in the "When Jane met Gerry and Jez saga".
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2017, 01:13:59 PM
Overlooked is stretching it a bit don't you think.
Not that any of them looked that way anyway, as they admitted. Those who commented said they could see very little.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 25, 2018, 08:26:17 AM
over the last year there has been much discussion about whether the McCanns told the PJ about the possibility of an abductor using sedatives on Madeleine and by implication the twins.
It is clearly stated in the joint agreed timeline that Jane saw a child limp with possible sedation.
"Description of Child:
- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4. - She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged. - She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be another colour involved possibly pink. - She was not wearing shoes. " from SEQUENCE OF EVENTS: THURSDAY 3rd MAY 2007 20.30 TO 22.00 AS RECALLED BY TAPAS 9 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Now it is well documented that this was presented to the PJ prior to the second round of interviews. In other words they had plenty of time to organise tests to be done on the twins hair.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2018, 01:21:33 PM
over the last year there has been much discussion about whether the McCanns told the PJ about the possibility of an abductor using sedatives on Madeleine and by implication the twins.
It is clearly stated in the joint agreed timeline that Jane saw a child limp with possible sedation.
"Description of Child:
- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4. - She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged. - She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be another colour involved possibly pink. - She was not wearing shoes. " from SEQUENCE OF EVENTS: THURSDAY 3rd MAY 2007 20.30 TO 22.00 AS RECALLED BY TAPAS 9 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Now it is well documented that this was presented to the PJ prior to the second round of interviews. In other words they had plenty of time to organise tests to be done on the twins hair.
The inference was that MBM may have been drugged, not the twins.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 25, 2018, 07:09:44 PM
The detectives certainly believed it a possibilty that she got out and wandered off down the road.
VIDEO 5.20
AN interesting point made Gerry told the police Maddie could not have got out ber herself as she couldn't lift the shutters? oh he forgot to mention the unlocked door.. tsk!
Drugged questions who?when?how?why?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 25, 2018, 07:30:38 PM
They weren't seated inside the restaurant, but on the esplanade.
I beg your pardon?
Well that is certainly news to me. All this time believing that they were within the restaurant, where did you get that from Gunit ?
Whilst i appreciate the doubt thru the plastic sheeting, from the espanade there would be no way that their visibility of a person walking thru the patio area of 5A would not be visible.
Johns photo shows how it was without the plastic but from but a different angle to where The Tapas group sat. And also when that photo was taken, the bushes needed cutting back to how they were on May 3rd 2007. Greenery grows amazingly fast on the western Algarve and can rapidly blank out views.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 25, 2018, 07:37:14 PM
AN interesting point made Gerry told the police Maddie could not have got out ber herself as she couldn't lift the shutters? oh he forgot to mention the unlocked door.. tsk!
Drugged questions who?when?how?why?
But could she do that if she had been drugged?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on January 25, 2018, 07:40:52 PM
AN interesting point made Gerry told the police Maddie could not have got out ber herself as she couldn't lift the shutters? oh he forgot to mention the unlocked door.. tsk!
Drugged questions who?when?how?why?
Maybe Gerry was questioned as to whether Madeleine could have got out through the window by herself, you don't quote the question to Gerry.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2018, 07:49:35 PM
Well that is certainly news to me. All this time believing that they were within the restaurant, where did you get that from Gunit ?
Whilst i appreciate the doubt thru the plastic sheeting, from the espanade there would be no way that their visibility of a person walking thru the patio area of 5A would not be visible.
Johns photo shows how it was without the plastic but from but a different angle to where The Tapas group sat. And also when that photo was taken, the bushes needed cutting back to how they were on May 3rd 2007. Greenery grows amazingly fast on the western Algarve and can rapidly blank out views.
I'm just going on what Gerry McCann said. Is he inside the restaurant?
https://youtu.be/dXtBWNCFt7U?t=481
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 25, 2018, 07:54:29 PM
Just a bit! The street lamp which "illuminates" the apartment is the same street lamp which offers little illumination in the "When Jane met Gerry and Jez saga".
As someone with an educated engineering background, I would have expected you to realise that even a lowish level of illumination in contrast to the blackness of the surroundings, would clearly outline a person.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 25, 2018, 11:55:57 PM
I can understand you being confused by this clip, if you haven't been there.
The plastic sheeting is taken down on this clip.
Yes he was within the restaurant.
In Arlindo's statement that structure must have been called the Esplanade by the staff there. What is the restaurant to some is the Esplanade to others.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 26, 2018, 02:30:15 AM
In Arlindo's statement that structure must have been called the Esplanade by the staff there. What is the restaurant to some is the Esplanade to others.
No, i dont think so Rob
The Esplanade would have been the walk way in front of the Tapas Restaurant alongside the pool starting at the Tapas reception and after passing the Tapas restaurant and bar going on to the childrens paddling pool. From there it reurned passing along the other side of the pool.
It is a rather old fashioned word, but my Mum and Dad used it when at Bournemouth and other seaside resorts. They strolled along the Esplanade. It is usually a flat, wide and well paved walkway alongside the sea / water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esplanade
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 26, 2018, 02:50:12 AM
The Esplanade would have been the walk way in front of the Tapas Restaurant alongside the pool starting at the Tapas reception and after passing the Tapas restaurant and bar going on to the childrens paddling pool. From there it reurned passing along the other side of the pool.
It is a rather old fashioned word, but my Mum and Dad used it when at Bournemouth and other seaside resorts. They strolled along the Esplanade. It is usually a flat, wide and well paved walkway alongside the sea / water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esplanade
I'll copy the part of Arlindo's statement "After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else. "
Since the Tapas 9 were the last table to leave that is them in the Esplanade or at least what Arlindo calls the esplanade.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: sadie on January 26, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
I'll copy the part of Arlindo's statement "After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else. "
Since the Tapas 9 were the last table to leave that is them in the Esplanade or at least what Arlindo calls the esplanade.
I agree he does say that according to the statement, which was translated into English by (?)Portruguese Citizen, Ines 471 to 473-Witness statement of Arlindo Epifano Goncalves Fernandes Peleja 2007.05.07
-snip- After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else. -snip-
Well that means one of four things imo
1) That they were indeed sitting outside, under the restaurant roof, but in the gap between the Tapas restaurant and the Tapas bar
2) On that cooler night, the plastic side (window) to the restaurant had been taken down (as in the video)
3) That Esplanade means something else in Portuguese to the British meaning
4) That Ines, a portuguese national I believe, had messed in her understanding and translation, but I seem to remember that her English was pretty good
Now according to Arlindo
-snip- He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly; . When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10 -snip-
He arrived there at about 9.10pm. -snip- He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples -snip-
So where were all the other diners such as the Carpenters?
And Ines uses the word in, so does that mean that the walkway inside the restaurant is called "The Esplanade"? Perhaps, as Ocean Club grew, the restaurant was a later addition to the area which originally was part of the Esplanade ? Dunno.
However if the group were sitting there with no plastic window, then it cuts all the discussion as to whether they would hear Madeleine if she yelled. Undoubtedly they would have and she would have heard them. Also no ploastic sheet to look thru to see 5A, so a clear view both ways.
What a mix up. Difficult to make sense of it all
Over to you.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 26, 2018, 10:33:49 PM
I agree he does say that according to the statement, which was translated into English by (?)Portruguese Citizen, Ines 471 to 473-Witness statement of Arlindo Epifano Goncalves Fernandes Peleja 2007.05.07
-snip- After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else. -snip-
Well that means one of four things imo
1) That they were indeed sitting outside, under the restaurant roof, but in the gap between the Tapas restaurant and the Tapas bar
2) On that cooler night, the plastic side (window) to the restaurant had been taken down (as in the video)
3) That Esplanade means something else in Portuguese to the British meaning
4) That Ines, a portuguese national I believe, had messed in her understanding and translation, but I seem to remember that her English was pretty good
Now according to Arlindo
-snip- He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly; . When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10 -snip-
He arrived there at about 9.10pm. -snip- He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples -snip-
So where were all the other diners such as the Carpenters?
And Ines uses the word in, so does that mean that the walkway inside the restaurant is called "The Esplanade"? Perhaps, as Ocean Club grew, the restaurant was a later addition to the area which originally was part of the Esplanade ? Dunno.
However if the group were sitting there with no plastic window, then it cuts all the discussion as to whether they would hear Madeleine if she yelled. Undoubtedly they would have and she would have heard them. Also no ploastic sheet to look thru to see 5A, so a clear view both ways.
What a mix up. Difficult to make sense of it all
Over to you.
I had a whole thread on Arlindo and his timing was about half an hour out. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8970.0
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2019, 11:02:46 AM
I haven't read all the posts on this thread but in answer to the thread title it's far more likely the twins were simply in a deep phase of sleep when all the commotion started and they were transferred to the Payne's apartment but apparently slept through.
Back in the 80's I studied psychology which covers the science of sleep. I was reminded of this when I looked at the Bamber case where similar claims were made about the 6 year old twins who clearly slept through noise.
Anyone interested can check it out: stages of sleep 1 - 4, REM and sleep spindles. Stages 3 and 4 are difficult to wake from especially so for children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 11:08:28 AM
I haven't read all the posts on this thread but in answer to the thread title it's far more likely the twins were simply in a deep phase of sleep when all the commotion started and they were transferred to the Payne's apartment but apparently slept through.
Back in the 80's I studied psychology which covers the science of sleep. I was reminded of this when I looked at the Bamber case where similar claims were made about the 6 year old twins who clearly slept through noise.
Anyone interested can check it out: stages of sleep 1 - 4, REM and sleep spindles. Stages 3 and 4 are difficult to wake from especially so for children.
Always good to have a different perspective,would stages 3/4 be expected after about 3 hrs sleep?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 14, 2019, 11:22:43 AM
Always good to have a different perspective,would stages 3/4 be expected after about 3 hrs sleep?
I've seen it first hand with one of my sons... I wanted to wake him up but it was basically impossible... He was totally worn out after playing all day on his new bike
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 14, 2019, 11:30:06 AM
Sorry you will need to explain - I know very little about the case. Is Smithman the man Jane Tanner saw carrying a child wearing similar pj's to MM's?
These are two separate incidents.
The first is 'Tannerman', walking W to East close to apartment 5A , and seen by Jane Tanner around 9:15 pm.
The second is 'Smithman', walking N to S around 600m away, and seen by by 9 members of the Smith family, around 10 pm.
There is debate on this forum as to whether these are two people or one single person.
I have tried reconstructing the Tannerman-Smithman route, and it took perhaps 6 minutes, so there is a timing issue.
Plus Tannerman has allegedly been identified as Dr Julian Totman, and entirely innocent. One fly in the ointment is he should have been going the other way.
PS Welcome to this chunk of the forum, Holly. Hopefully you have fireproof underwear on. It's BBQ time. &^^&*
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 01:41:57 PM
I've seen it first hand with one of my sons... I wanted to wake him up but it was basically impossible... He was totally worn out after playing all day on his new bike
But two children ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2019, 01:57:40 PM
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 15, 2019, 02:51:23 PM
Some children can sleep through anything. I saw a child of two sleep through a live concert.
The children didn't wake up on the other days apart from Tuesday night but that was about 12 o'clock. What about Sunday, Monday, Wednesday? Why didn't they show symptoms of being drugged, drowsy during the day, not quite with it. On the contrary Madeleine was full of life by the sound of it. IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 15, 2019, 06:03:42 PM
Some children can sleep through anything. I saw a child of two sleep through a live concert.
The children didn't wake up on the other days apart from Tuesday night but that was about 12 o'clock. What about Sunday, Monday, Wednesday? Why didn't they show symptoms of being drugged, drowsy during the day, not quite with it. On the contrary Madeleine was full of life by the sound of it. IMO
ACTUALLY if you read anything the Tapas say you will discover the children were,'very tired'
Yes I also watched children sleeping what is your point?
The discussion is about what Kate thought and said. Kate is a trained anaethatist so she should know, and also she has told us the childern have woke during the nights they were left alone. The reason they listened at the door was to hear crying or other signs of children being awake. She also explains that using a specific door was so as not to wake the children. She must have had a reason for thinking a door opening would wake her very soundly sleeping children.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 15, 2019, 06:17:33 PM
ACTUALLY if you read anything the Tapas say you will discover the children were,'very tired'
Yes I also watched children sleeping what is your point?
The discussion is about what Kate thought and said. Kate is a trained anaethatist so she should know, and also she has told us the childern have woke during the nights they were left alone. The reason they listened at the door was to hear crying or other signs of children being awake. She also explains that using a specific door was so as not to wake the children. She must have had a reason for thinking a door opening would wake her very soundly sleeping children.
The slamming and whoosing had no effect either.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 06:30:04 PM
Often when visiting my parents we would bath the children, get them in their pyjamas and then set.home. Half an hour later they were lifted out of the car, carried into the.house and put into bed. No effect either?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 06:44:42 PM
Often when visiting my parents we would bath the children, get them in their pyjamas and then set.home. Half an hour later they were lifted out of the car, carried into the.house and put into bed. No effect either?
And I’ll bet you both tried to be as quiet as mice.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2019, 06:54:47 PM
Often when visiting my parents we would bath the children, get them in their pyjamas and then set.home. Half an hour later they were lifted out of the car, carried into the.house and put into bed. No effect either?
Did you think someone had drugged them?
All these supporters stories are wonderful and... almost interesting.
However, this particular thread isn't about them or their families- it is very clearly written: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
I have just a little idea what the reason for this is: they are making excuses like the McCanns for the questions about why the twins who were known as light sleepers- were unpreturbed by the chaos of that evening. Kate gives her reason - not that the were always very sound sleepers, or they were very tired but that'they must have been drugged by an abductor'
So...
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 07:03:02 PM
And I’ll bet you both tried to be as quiet as mice.
I will try to explain. We had three children under the age of four They slept in the same bedroom and were very used to one or other needing to get up to the toilet, or one coughing or one needing a drink, or being in the car and being taken from the car and plonked into bed. Slept through it all. I could switch on a light and go into their room and put clothes away. Mine could have slept through a nuclear war. Share your experience about having three children under the age of four.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 07:27:11 PM
I will try to explain. We had three children under the age of four They slept in the same bedroom and were very used to one or other needing to get up to the toilet, or one coughing or one needing a drink, or being in the car and being taken from the car and plonked into bed. Slept through it all. I could switch on a light and go into their room and put clothes away. Mine could have slept through a nuclear war. Share your experience about having three children under the age of four.
Unfortunately I wasn’t as prolific in the baby making department as your good self, so well done you.
Fortunately though I don’t have to guess about the McCanns children because they told us themselves that putting on a light or opening a front door was likely to wake them.....so now we know.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 07:32:39 PM
Unfortunately I wasn’t as prolific in the baby making department as your good self, so well done you.
Fortunately though I don’t have to guess about the McCanns children because they told us themselves that putting on a light or opening a front door was likely to wake them.....so now we know.
No it was very easy to do. I believe I did post earlier that my mother in law had thirteen children. My own dear mother on hearing that our baby No 3 was expected, did have a fleeting moment of thinking. .....well I could see what she was thinking.
So you believe the children were drugged?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2019, 07:42:32 PM
No it was very easy to do. I believe I did post earlier that my mother in law had thirteen children. My own dear mother on hearing that our baby No 3 was expected, did have a fleeting moment of thinking. .....well I could see what she was thinking.
So you believe the children were drugged?
Is it about what people believe? It is about what Kate and Tapas said of the evening.
There seems to be some kind of defence or other explanation given for and on behalf of the Tapas group- in particular the McCanns.
They tell us what they say happened- this is queried and excuses are in abundance, the excuses are queried and as no reasonable explanation is forthcomming the questioners are called trolls. h8ters etc.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 07:43:18 PM
No it was very easy to do. I believe I did post earlier that my mother in law had thirteen children. My own dear mother on hearing that our baby No 3 was expected, did have a fleeting moment of thinking. .....well I could see what she was thinking.
So you believe the children were drugged?
I believe their parents do and I have no reason to second guess them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 07:45:20 PM
Is it about what people believe? It is about what Kate and Tapas said of the evening.
There seems to be some kind of defence or other explanation given for and on behalf of the Tapas group- in particular the McCanns.
They tell us what they say happened- this is queried and excuses are in abundance, the excuses are queried and as no reasonable explanation is forthcomming the questioners are called trolls. h8ters etc.
Perhaps it's the sheer abundance of the questioning of every decision, every statement, every action of the parents of Madeleine which does strike some as well.......rather over enthusiastic!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2019, 08:06:48 PM
Perhaps it's the sheer abundance of the questioning of every decision, every statement, every action of the parents of Madeleine which does strike some as well.......rather over enthusiastic!
This was an error trying to post oops sorry.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2019, 08:10:34 PM
Perhaps it's the sheer abundance of the questioning of every decision, every statement, every action of the parents of Madeleine which does strike some as well.......rather over enthusiastic!
Perhaps it's the sheer abundance of the questioning of every decision, every statement, every action of the parents of Madeleine which does strike some as well.......rather over enthusiastic!
One finds oneself in astonishment of those who claim to 'care' about MBM,who are so underwhelmed to be bothered to ask questions, but feel quite justified in answering questions for and on behalf of the parents.
Strange phenomenon.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 08:14:51 PM
Does one find oneself in astonishment at those who disect and study every thought, word, deed of Madeleine's parents . Yes one does.
Why bother taking an interest in the case then? Or are you here to boost the 'supporters club' of answering these 'every thoughts and deeds and words by the McCanns, because they and you, it seems are unable, to make the shoes fit.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 08:36:42 PM
Why bother taking an interest in the case then? Or are you here to boost the 'supporters club' of answering these 'every thoughts and deeds and words by the McCanns, because they and you, it seems are unable, to make the shoes fit.
Do you ever make a post without resorting to the usual sceptic mantra?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 08:43:19 PM
Possibly they were. Do you believe they were drugged by their parents or by an abductor?
As the parents have said that they believed the twins were drugged but didn’t seek professional help at the time that certainly raises suspicions that it was themselves who did it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Erngath on June 15, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
As the parents have said that they believed the twins were drugged but didn’t seek professional help at the time that certainly raises suspicions that it was themselves who did it.
With what? Just the twins? Or all of the children?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on June 15, 2019, 08:50:02 PM
As the parents have said that they believed the twins were drugged but didn’t seek professional help at the time that certainly raises suspicions that it was themselves who did it.
You have drugged your children. One of them has died. You throw her body in the bin. You have no way of knowing if the other kids will go the same way. You consider they might. You do not bother to seek medical assistance for them. Aren’t you a complete psychopath?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2019, 08:52:17 PM
With what? Just the twins? Or all of the children?
There are many drugs available to doctors, given as samples by pharmaceutical companies etc, that could be used to sedate a child...and if the children were drugged I believe that it was all of them.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2019, 08:53:48 PM
There are many drugs available to doctors, given as samples by pharmaceutical companies etc, that could be used to sedate a child...and if the children were drugged I believe that it was all of them.
Apparently Amaral's drug of choice was Calpol ... now there's a thing!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2019, 10:51:06 PM
Apparently Amaral's drug of choice was Calpol ... now there's a thing!
I think faiths a little out of date with her idea of the availability of drugs. I keep benzodiazepines in stock...in a double locked cabinet...every time one is used we have to log it....and account for its use with two signatures
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 16, 2019, 08:37:56 AM
As the parents have said that they believed the twins were drugged but didn’t seek professional help at the time that certainly raises suspicions that it was themselves who did it.
Kate says in her book she told the police her concerns. How do you know the twins didn't roll over or change position in their cots, a clear sign they were not sedated. Fiona said they were fine, why would she say that? IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2019, 03:55:29 PM
Kate says in her book she told the police her concerns. How do you know the twins didn't roll over or change position in their cots, a clear sign they were not sedated. Fiona said they were fine, why would she say that? IMO
There is absolutely no witnesses to Kate raising her concerns with any police officer. Fiona, who was with her most of the night, didn’t mention it, Silvia Baptista, who would have to have translated her concerns, didn’t mention it, her husband, who I would have assumed she also told, didn’t mention it and not one police officer mentioned it in their statements. So apart from Kate retrospectively remembering this in her book, probably to answer the criticism levelled at her for obviously believing the twins had been sedated but getting no medical help, is there any witnesses at all to verify Kate’s claim ?
As to the twins rolling over, why do you think it would mean that they weren’t sedated ? Under sedation I tried to pull out the camera while having an endoscopy.
Lastly, of course Fiona said they were fine, she was talking months later.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2019, 04:15:52 PM
There is absolutely no witnesses to Kate raising her concerns with any police officer. Fiona, who was with her most of the night, didn’t mention it, Silvia Baptista, who would have to have translated her concerns, didn’t mention it, her husband, who I would have assumed she also told, didn’t mention it and not one police officer mentioned it in their statements. So apart from Kate retrospectively remembering this in her book, probably to answer the criticism levelled at her for obviously believing the twins had been sedated but getting no medical help, is there any witnesses at all to verify Kate’s claim ?
As to the twins rolling over, why do you think it would mean that they weren’t sedated ? Under sedation I tried to pull out the camera while having an endoscopy.
Lastly, of course Fiona said they were fine, she was talking months later.
The fact you tried to pull out the endoscope shows you were perfectly safe and not over sedated
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2019, 04:24:35 PM
If they were not oversedated they were totally safe and in no need of any medical treatment...
So Kate believed that her children had been sedated and that neither she nor her husband had sedated them and therefore she was perfectly fine with them appearing sedated.....is that what you are saying ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2019, 04:30:29 PM
There is absolutely no witnesses to Kate raising her concerns with any police officer. Fiona, who was with her most of the night, didn’t mention it, Silvia Baptista, who would have to have translated her concerns, didn’t mention it, her husband, who I would have assumed she also told, didn’t mention it and not one police officer mentioned it in their statements. So apart from Kate retrospectively remembering this in her book, probably to answer the criticism levelled at her for obviously believing the twins had been sedated but getting no medical help, is there any witnesses at all to verify Kate’s claim ?
As to the twins rolling over, why do you think it would mean that they weren’t sedated ? Under sedation I tried to pull out the camera while having an endoscopy.
Lastly, of course Fiona said they were fine, she was talking months later.
A lot of Kates unsubstanciated claims are unbelievable IMO. All the restrospective amendments make them sound even more fantastic.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: faithlilly on June 16, 2019, 04:33:35 PM
There is absolutely no witnesses to Kate raising her concerns with any police officer. Fiona, who was with her most of the night, didn’t mention it, Silvia Baptista, who would have to have translated her concerns, didn’t mention it, her husband, who I would have assumed she also told, didn’t mention it and not one police officer mentioned it in their statements. So apart from Kate retrospectively remembering this in her book, probably to answer the criticism levelled at her for obviously believing the twins had been sedated but getting no medical help, is there any witnesses at all to verify Kate’s claim ?
As to the twins rolling over, why do you think it would mean that they weren’t sedated ? Under sedation I tried to pull out the camera while having an endoscopy.
Lastly, of course Fiona said they were fine, she was talking months later.
If she never mentioned it at the time why do you think she felt the need to mention it at all, years later?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 17, 2019, 09:16:12 AM
There is absolutely no witnesses to Kate raising her concerns with any police officer. Fiona, who was with her most of the night, didn’t mention it, Silvia Baptista, who would have to have translated her concerns, didn’t mention it, her husband, who I would have assumed she also told, didn’t mention it and not one police officer mentioned it in their statements. So apart from Kate retrospectively remembering this in her book, probably to answer the criticism levelled at her for obviously believing the twins had been sedated but getting no medical help, is there any witnesses at all to verify Kate’s claim ?
As to the twins rolling over, why do you think it would mean that they weren’t sedated ? Under sedation I tried to pull out the camera while having an endoscopy.
Lastly, of course Fiona said they were fine, she was talking months later.
Children are being sedated before having scans, to prevent them from moving and messing up the pictures, what would be the point of sedating them if they could move anyway?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 09:40:13 AM
I'm surprised KM did not have some understanding of the science of sleep where all the research shows stages 3 and 4 are difficult to wake from, more so for children. Imo all of this is about selling it hard that MM was abducted which makes them feel less guilty than if MM woke and wandered.
In the Bamber case 6 year old twin boys, who were sleeping in single beds a couple of feet apart, slept through the sound of repeated firearm discharge. All the expert evidence shows they did not move and the toxicology tests did not reveal anything untoward.
Strange as it might seem children can and do sleep through all sorts eg above, the children being carried and observed by JT and the Smith family. I'm also thinking of GM carrying SM off the return flight to UK. Most with experience of children will know this to be so.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 17, 2019, 09:46:39 AM
This is what Fiona said -
'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.
Fiona said 'they were fine' 'they were sleeping' Looks as though the twins were just fast asleep.
Kate says in her book that the morning of the 3rd of May, there was a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top, she didn't know how the stain could have got there. So, with Madeleine missing, she remembered the stain and wondered if Madeleine had been sedated and the twins too. No doubt in my mind that she mentioned this to the Police, but she was hysterical, and it could have come out as sounding crazy. Amaral said they worried about the twins from the start, why? if he hadn't been told anything. Then they check the bed for sedatives. IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 09:58:43 AM
'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.
Fiona said 'they were fine' 'they were sleeping' Looks as though the twins were just fast asleep.
Kate says in her book that the morning of the 3rd of May, there was a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top, she didn't know how the stain could have got there. So, with Madeleine missing, she remembered the stain and wondered if Madeleine had been sedated and the twins too. No doubt in my mind that she mentioned this to the Police, but she was hysterical, and it could have come out as sounding crazy. Amaral said they worried about the twins from the start, why? if he hadn't been told anything. Then they check the bed for sedatives. IMO
In the following Panorama doc @ 2.49 in you can see/hear GM walking down the aircraft steps onto the airport carrying a sleeping SM over his shoulder. The noise is considerable from the aircraft engines and GM talking into a microphone:
'No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.
Fiona said 'they were fine' 'they were sleeping' Looks as though the twins were just fast asleep.
Kate says in her book that the morning of the 3rd of May, there was a stain on Madeleine's pyjama top, she didn't know how the stain could have got there. So, with Madeleine missing, she remembered the stain and wondered if Madeleine had been sedated and the twins too. No doubt in my mind that she mentioned this to the Police, but she was hysterical, and it could have come out as sounding crazy. Amaral said they worried about the twins from the start, why? if he hadn't been told anything. Then they check the bed for sedatives. IMO
I haven't got to the part in the book re the stain on the pj top but this could be significant.
As we know from all the high profile cases in the UK unfortunately pedophiles are not creepy looking men hanging around school playgrounds looking furtive and therefore easily identified and avoided. They are everywhere and look and act normally. I have often wondered whether one of the guests at the Ocean club had a suppressed unhealthy sexual interest in children which came to the surface seeing young children running around in swimwear etc. Then knowing MM was home alone and accessible he (most likely a he but could be a she) entered the apartment and started off maybe just masturbating around MM (stain on pj top?) and things then got out of hand. Maybe she woke and the perp realised she might recognize him and was of an age when she could relay verbally to her parents what had happened. In a panic she was murdered and removed.
From what little I know of this case at the moment I think the abduction theory is the least likely. Either something along the lines of the above or woke and wondered and came to some harm.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 17, 2019, 10:50:22 AM
I haven't got to the part in the book re the stain on the pj top but this could be significant.
As we know from all the high profile cases in the UK unfortunately pedophiles are not creepy looking men hanging around school playgrounds looking furtive and therefore easily identified and avoided. They are everywhere and look and act normally. I have often wondered whether one of the guests at the Ocean club had a suppressed unhealthy sexual interest in children which came to the surface seeing young children running around in swimwear etc. Then knowing MM was home alone and accessible he (most likely a he but could be a she) entered the apartment and started off maybe just masturbating around MM (stain on pj top?) and things then got out of hand. Maybe she woke and the perp realised she might recognize him and was of an age when she could relay verbally to her parents what had happened. In a panic she was murdered and removed.
From what little I know of this case at the moment I think the abduction theory is the least likely. Either something along the lines of the above or woke and wondered and came to some harm.
The stain was brown, Kate thought it might have been tea, but didn't remember Madeleine having any tea.
If woke and wandered [which I don't believe happened] something I read online years ago said that if she had, she would have been drawn to the lights and sounds of the Ocean Club.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 11:01:36 AM
The stain was brown, Kate thought it might have been tea, but didn't remember Madeleine having any tea.
If woke and wandered [which I don't believe happened] something I read online years ago said that if she had, she would have been drawn to the lights and sounds of the Ocean Club.
Yes the latter featured in a dispatches docu where experts thought if MM woke and wandered she would tend to walk down hill (5a on a slope) towards the tapas bar are where lights were on etc.
Could she leave by the front door? I don't know what sort of lock it was and whether she could reach it? Was the front door definitely locked? I will have to read GM's ws again from a skim read he seemed unsure whether or not it was locked?
A nearly 4 year old might have become disorientated in the dark and ended up anywhere with who knows who.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2019, 12:34:41 PM
Yes the latter featured in a dispatches docu where experts thought if MM woke and wandered she would tend to walk down hill (5a on a slope) towards the tapas bar are where lights were on etc.
Could she leave by the front door? I don't know what sort of lock it was and whether she could reach it? Was the front door definitely locked? I will have to read GM's ws again from a skim read he seemed unsure whether or not it was locked?
A nearly 4 year old might have become disorientated in the dark and ended up anywhere with who knows who.
Carlo D'Ambrosio described the lock as follows ...
Snip We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 12:50:38 PM
Carlo D'Ambrosio described the lock as follows ...
Snip We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.
After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on June 17, 2019, 01:17:24 PM
A reminder everyone to keep posts convivial please. TY
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 17, 2019, 02:25:45 PM
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
The patio door was unlocked.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on June 17, 2019, 02:28:59 PM
I don't think I can cope with much more of this. My brain is scrambled. But not that scrambled. Give me some Proof. Or is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 02:50:56 PM
Thanks. When I first started looking at this case I thought poolside/patio door was the front and the car park/door was the back. I now know it is considered by all concerned to be the reverse.
GM/KM claim they left the patio door unlocked but it seems the front door (car park side) was insecure too.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 17, 2019, 02:55:23 PM
Thanks. When I first started looking at this case I thought poolside/patio door was the front and the car park/door was the back. I now know it is considered by all concerned to be the reverse.
GM/KM claim they left the patio door unlocked but it seems the front door (car park side) was insecure too.
The patio door was left unlocked because it was impossible to lock it from the outside, which only compounds the initial decision to leave the kids unattended, in my humble, yet unerring opinion. Why was it necessary to leave it unlocked? Pure convenience. Time saving. About a minute a trip by all accounts.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2019, 02:57:11 PM
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
One could have assumed that the investigators might have been able to make use of that information regarding what seems to have been a faulty lock ... but I don't think anyone thought about asking anyone anything until 2008 when they were winding up the case.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 17, 2019, 03:02:11 PM
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
They didn't lock the front door. It could be opened from the inside but not from the outside without a key.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 17, 2019, 05:08:32 PM
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
Would Madeleine have put whatever it was she used to reach the door away after she'd opened the door? There is nothing that says there was something near the front door that Madeleine stood on to reach the door to unclock it.
Madeleine didn't put her shoes on, she didn't take Cuddle Cat.
Then there is the open window.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 07:54:28 PM
Thanks. So when the parents left they locked the front door and left the key inside in which case, in theory MM could have opened the door? Even if she was unable to reach she might have fetched something to climb onto? And obviously if the cleaner was able to enter when the door was supposedly locked with the key in it then others might well have been able to do the same.
But the McCanns didn't leave the key in the lock. read http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7852.msg537155#msg537155
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2019, 08:02:45 PM
I haven't got to the part in the book re the stain on the pj top but this could be significant.
As we know from all the high profile cases in the UK unfortunately pedophiles are not creepy looking men hanging around school playgrounds looking furtive and therefore easily identified and avoided. They are everywhere and look and act normally. I have often wondered whether one of the guests at the Ocean club had a suppressed unhealthy sexual interest in children which came to the surface seeing young children running around in swimwear etc. Then knowing MM was home alone and accessible he (most likely a he but could be a she) entered the apartment and started off maybe just masturbating around MM (stain on pj top?) and things then got out of hand. Maybe she woke and the perp realised she might recognize him and was of an age when she could relay verbally to her parents what had happened. In a panic she was murdered and removed.
From what little I know of this case at the moment I think the abduction theory is the least likely. Either something along the lines of the above or woke and wondered and came to some harm.
The stain was allegedly found the morning after Gerry said David Payne checked on the children.
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
Would Madeleine have put whatever it was she used to reach the door away after she'd opened the door? There is nothing that says there was something near the front door that Madeleine stood on to reach the door to unlock it.
Madeleine didn't put her shoes on, she didn't take Cuddle Cat.
Then there is the open window.
Yes I agree if MM did stand on something it would mean she would have to have returned it to its rightful position which seems unlikely. But something may have been in the vicinity or she may have been able to reach to open the door. Or for whatever reason(s) KM may have removed any such object as she wanted to sell the abduction theory.
If an abductor entered through the window then surely he/she would look for an easier escape route than through the window carrying MM? The only way I can see this working is if any such abductor had an accomplice and was able to pass MM to someone outside.
Is it a given MM would bother with shoes and Cuddle Cat?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: jassi on June 17, 2019, 08:09:36 PM
Yes I agree if MM did stand on something it would mean she would have to have returned it to its rightful position which seems unlikely. But something may have been in the vicinity or she may have been able to reach to open the door. Or for whatever reason(s) KM may have removed any such object as she wanted to sell the abduction theory.
If an abductor entered through the window then surely he/she would look for an easier escape route than through the window carrying MM? The only way I can see this working is if any such abductor had an accomplice and was able to pass MM to someone outside.
Is it a given MM would bother with shoes and Cuddle Cat?
Would she have been able to locate her shoes in the dark ? Its not as if they would have been at the side of her bed - IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 17, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
The stain was allegedly found the morning after Gerry said David Payne checked on the children.
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Thanks. I really need to read all the ws's carefully. Afaik the Payne's did not leave the table on 3rd May? They were not part of this bizarre checking arrangement instead relying on a hi-tec monitor?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2019, 11:29:36 PM
The Payne's used a baby monitor.
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children ?>)()<
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 17, 2019, 11:34:44 PM
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children ?>)()<
Is that a crime?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 18, 2019, 07:53:34 AM
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children ?>)()<
Was it just DP? Or all the fathers?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 08:57:15 AM
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children' I know you say that you didn't have to check yours.'
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check. Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn't have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn't have felt quite comfortable checking them. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Very bizarre coming from a man who was comfortable bathing other children ?>)()<
MO also makes the point that up until the Thursday night he also did not feel comfortable checking the McCann children as he didn't feel he knew them or KM/GM up until that point. He had apparently been for a run with KM during that day from memory and it seems he felt he got to know her better. He said they run along the beach together and likened it to Bay Watch which I thought was rather an immature thing to say given the circumstances.
In his WS he also refers to a famous child psychology experiment referred to as the 'Strange Situation' by Mary Ainsworth. He does not refer to the name of the experiment or the psychologist but this is what he is referring to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_situation
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:04:13 AM
MO also makes the point that up until the Thursday night he also did not feel comfortable checking the McCann children as he didn't feel he knew them or KM/GM up until that point. He had apparently been for a run with KM during that day from memory and it seems he felt he got to know her better. He said they run along the beach together and likened it to Bay Watch which I thought was rather an immature thing to say given the circumstances.
In his WS he also refers to a famous child psychology experiment referred to as the 'Strange Situation' by Mary Ainsworth. He does not refer to the name of the experiment or the psychologist but this is what he is referring to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_situation
I mentioned a few days ago that I thought this forum needed a 'reset'. I think you're unwittingly providing it. Keep at it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 09:07:15 AM
They didn't lock the front door. It could be opened from the inside but not from the outside without a key.
I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo.
It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side. For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible. For outsiders it was locked.
However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door. It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside.
To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key
So who provided the key ? Someone from O.C ?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 06:54:52 PM
I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo.
It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side. For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible. For outsiders it was locked.
However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door. It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside.
To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key
So who provided the key ? Someone from O.C ?
What key? Why? The back door was open. And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock? Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 07:00:58 PM
I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo.
It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side. For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible. For outsiders it was locked.
However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door. It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside.
To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key
So who provided the key ? Someone from O.C ?
That's clarified the front door then, thanks. So although many knew the children were home 'home alone' they would not necessarily know (other than T7) that the patio door was unlocked. Therefore any would be abductor may have entered via the window and then out the front door with MM. If someone entered the bedroom via the window then he/she would land on the bed and surely someone would have noticed some sort of indentation from feet or a body or whatever? Also unlikely the bed was empty probably had children's bits and pieces on eg toys, clothes etc which would be disturbed? I don't recall reading anything about this?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 07:27:09 PM
What key? Why? The back door was open. And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock? Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.
So what's the score with the front door? This is the door car park side?
I'm beginning to think GM was somewhat of risk taker, prepared to take shortcuts and maybe a wee bit arrogant. Did he even leave the windows/shutters open so he could nip round the front and either listen or poke his head through the window as opposed to going through the gate, child gate, patio doors and curtains?
I was stunned when I read the following article by Jez Wilkin's wife, Bridget O'Donnell. It seems GM was happy to let all and sundry know about the "childcare arrangements" and was fond of holding court in the tapas bar with his voice booming out across the area. JW and BO were sitting on their balcony and could hear laughter from the T9 and a loud Glaswegian accent! I know what she means I have a Glaswegian male friend who I meet regularly for coffee and snacks along with his partner in, would you believe it, the local Waitrose cafe! There's a crowd of us who meet in there regularly and almost everyone comments on how loud the Glaswegian is. Imo he is actually a nice guy but I know his loud voice grates on many. The point is GM was not some quiet guy happy to take a back seat he liked to take centre stage and was happy discussing the "childcare arrangements" with anyone who cared to listen. He effectively let everyone know he was in the tapas bar and the children 'home alone'.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 07:28:18 PM
So what's the score with the front door? This is the door car park side?
I'm beginning to think GM was somewhat of risk taker, prepared to take shortcuts and maybe a wee bit arrogant. Did he even leave the windows/shutters open so he could nip round the front and either listen or poke his head through the window as opposed to going through the gate, child gate, patio doors and curtains?
I was stunned when I read the following article by Jez Wilkin's wife, Bridget O'Donnell. It seems GM was happy to let all and sundry know about the "childcare arrangements" and was fond of holding court in the tapas bar with his voice booming out across the area. JW and BO were sitting on their balcony and could hear laughter from the T9 and a loud Glaswegian accent! I know what she means I have a Glaswegian male friend who I meet regularly for coffee and snacks along with his partner in, would you believe it, the local Waitrose cafe! There's a crowd of us who meet in there regularly and almost everyone comments on how loud the Glaswegian is. Imo he is actually a nice guy but I know his loud voice grates on many. The point is GM was not some quiet guy happy to take a back seat he liked to take centre stage and was happy discussing the "childcare arrangements" with anyone who cared to listen. He effectively let everyone know he was in the tapas bar and the children 'home alone'.
The patio door was left open as it couldn't be locked from the outside - to save time walking round. Which door did Kate use, the patio door, but they only left it unlocked on this night? Is that correct? May 4th statement - we used the front door May 10th statement - we used the patio door, it was unlocked. Front door key conspicuously placed on the table.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 08:24:29 PM
The patio door was left open as it couldn't be locked from the outside - to save time walking round. Which door did Kate use, the patio door, but they only left it unlocked on this night? Is that correct? May 4th statement - we used the front door May 10th statement - we used the patio door, it was unlocked. Front door key conspicuously placed on the table.
But it seems to me that opening the gate, walking up the steps, opening the child gate, opening the patio doors, pulling the curtains over and walking through the apartment would take longer than simply walking round the front and opening the front door, looking in the bedroom, which was just to the right and then out again. The only downside to this is that the opening and closing the front door so close to the children's bedroom may have disturbed them. I just get the feeling we are not hearing the full facts re this checking "childcare arrangement" and therein lies the answer imo.
If GM did not physically check the children at circa 9pm then MM may well have disappeared from the apartment, by whatever means, from anytime between 8.30pm and 10pm. Albis then might not be so strong!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 08:29:14 PM
But it seems to me that opening the gate, walking up the steps, opening the child gate, opening the patio doors, pulling the curtains over and walking through the apartment would take longer than simply walking round the front and opening the front door, looking in the bedroom, which was just to the right and then out again. The only downside to this is that the opening and closing the front door so close to the children's bedroom may have disturbed them. I just get the feeling we are not hearing the full facts re this checking "childcare arrangement" and therein lies the answer imo.
If GM did not physically check the children at circa 9pm then MM may well have disappeared from the apartment, by whatever means, from anytime between 8.30pm and 10pm. Albis then might not be so strong!
Gerry maintains that, with no little revisionism, they entered using the patio door so 'as not to disturb them'. They were walking from the Tapas Bar remember, so they would walk past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park at the front. Matthew Oldfield did his check at 21.30 and went in through the patio door, as he was told it was open. He didn't go all the way in though, as he could 'see the twins in their cots' from the middle of the apartment.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 08:51:49 PM
I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo.
It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side. For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible. For outsiders it was locked.
However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door. It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside.
To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key
So who provided the key ? Someone from O.C ?
I totally disagree with you on this sentence "It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside." I have shown the forum the door wouldn't slam shut leaving a person outside without a key.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 08:54:05 PM
What key? Why? The back door was open. And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock? Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.
Same key locks and double locks the door. It was a matter of rotating the key twice as far to double lock it.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 08:55:33 PM
I totally disagree with you on this sentence "It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for those outside." I have shown the forum the door wouldn't slam shut leaving a person outside without a key.
Is right, la. So the key is required to physically 'lock' the top lock?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 08:58:12 PM
What key? Why? The back door was open. And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock? Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.
You can pick on the things someone says but not the person. So saying "but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off" about Sadie is not allowed. It is an ad hominem argument. Do you understand that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 18, 2019, 08:58:54 PM
Gerry maintains that, with no little revisionism, they entered using the patio door so 'as not to disturb them'. They were walking from the Tapas Bar remember, so they would walk past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park at the front. Matthew Oldfield did his check at 21.30 and went in through the patio door, as he was told it was open. He didn't go all the way in though, as he could 'see the twins in their cots' from the middle of the apartment.
I don't understand what you mean by walking past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park? If they didn't enter the gate off the road they would simply take a few more steps further up the road which was uphill and turn left into the car park and effectively be facing the front door?
So I can understand the thinking about not using the front door door which opening and closing may have disturbed the children but if GM simply listened at the window this would nullify the reason for not using the front door? He may not have done this at all or on all occasions but on his 9pm ish check he was in some hurry to get back to the table for his food and he was also delayed by his conversation with JW. I'm thinking he may well have met JW before checking the twins and then taken a shortcut on his checking by simply listening at the window. The fact he might have been in a slightly different location might account for the fact JT saw him but he didn't see her. Others might then have realised this was the case and then sort of effectively covered for him.
All concerned seemed reluctant to take part in a reconstruction which to my mind seems odd.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 08:59:32 PM
You can pick on the things someone says but not the person. So saying "but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off" about Sadie is not allowed. It is an ad hominem argument. Do you understand that?
Roger that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:04:52 PM
I don't understand what you mean by walking past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park? If they didn't enter the gate off the road they would simply take a few more steps further up the road which was uphill and turn left into the car park and effectively be facing the front door?
So I can understand the thinking about not using the front door door which opening and closing may have disturbed the children but if GM simply listened at the window this would nullify the reason for not using the front door? He may not have done this at all or on all occasions but on his 9pm ish check he was in some hurry to get back to the table for his food and he was also delayed by his conversation with JW. I'm thinking he may well have met JW before checking the twins and then taken a shortcut on his checking by simply listening at the window. The fact he might have been in a slightly different location might account for the fact JT saw him but he didn't see her. Others might then have realised this was the case and then sort of effectively covered for him.
All concerned seemed reluctant to take part in a reconstruction which to my mind seems odd.
Somebody timed that detour, it's about 50 seconds or so, but I'm sure a virile, tennis player could vault the wall and do it quicker. There's some sense in the 'do not disturb' thing, to the point where I actually think Gerry went for a wazz in the bushes - I would - he was bursting apparently. If the accounts are to be believed, then he told Matthew Oldfield (this opens a whole other echelon of this case, as there's a branch of sceptics who think MM died earlier in the week, so that would mean Matthew Oldfield was aware of this, as he would potentially find 2 instead of 3 wee ans) to go through the patio doors to check, for the 'don't disturb' reason - OK. But then he states the following night, the 4th, that he entered through the front door.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 09:09:09 PM
Is right, la. So the key is required to physically 'lock' the top lock?
Are you looking at the photo of the lock. From the outside the key had to be used to lock it and to double lock it.
From memory the single lock was below the double lock. There are specific terms for the components to a lock and the words are not on the tip of my tongue sorry. One of the terms is bolt. That bit that moves to jam the door is a bolt.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Brietta on June 18, 2019, 09:14:22 PM
But it seems to me that opening the gate, walking up the steps, opening the child gate, opening the patio doors, pulling the curtains over and walking through the apartment would take longer than simply walking round the front and opening the front door, looking in the bedroom, which was just to the right and then out again. The only downside to this is that the opening and closing the front door so close to the children's bedroom may have disturbed them. I just get the feeling we are not hearing the full facts re this checking "childcare arrangement" and therein lies the answer imo.
If GM did not physically check the children at circa 9pm then MM may well have disappeared from the apartment, by whatever means, from anytime between 8.30pm and 10pm. Albis then might not be so strong!
Why do you suppose Kate raised the alarm around ten pm instead of when the twins woke in the morning?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:15:12 PM
Are you looking at the photo of the lock. From the outside the key had to be used to lock it and to double lock it.
From memory the single lock was below the double lock. There are specific terms for the components to a lock and the words are not on the tip of my tongue sorry. One of the terms is bolt. That bit that moves to jam the door is a bolt.
So I think we discussed the other day that it's impossible to do the old, UK thing and pull the door to, which would lock it. You must use the key to turn 90 degrees clockwise (the bolt moves in and out). So the bolt is square, not chamfered? Where's that frickin picture.....
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:16:59 PM
So I think we discussed the other day that it's impossible to do the old, UK thing and pull the door to, which would lock it. You must use the key to turn 90 degrees clockwise (the bolt moves in and out). So the bolt is square, not chamfered? Where's that frickin picture.....
I had a whole thread or two on this particular issue. It is not easy to accept that the door can't just be slammed shut. But that was a problem for they were always being called out to clients that were locked out, so somehow the locks were modified to require a key to lock them. And they were only given one key per apartment. And that was another issue when there was 2 or 3 adults in an apartment. How did they keep track of who had the key? So the key was found, in the case of the Payne family, was under the door mat. How great was that?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 09:35:39 PM
I had a whole thread or two on this particular issue. It is not easy to accept that the door can't just be slammed shut. But that was a problem for they were always being called out to clients that were locked out, so somehow the locks were modified to require a key to lock them. And they were only given one key per apartment. And that was another issue when there was 2 or 3 adults in an apartment. How did they keep track of who had the key? So the key was found, in the case of the Payne family, was under the door mat. How great was that?
Cheers for that.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:39:56 PM
Am I being dense here? Surely they'd have to raise the alarm at the time they naturally got in that evening if Kate hadn't noticed her missing at 10pm?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2019, 09:53:21 PM
Am I being dense here? Surely they'd have to raise the alarm at the time they naturally got in that evening if Kate hadn't noticed her missing at 10pm?
I must have been a slack parent myself. In my case it would be next morning. Kate wasn't going into the room but she noted the door out of place. If it was quiet, there was no need to check the room itself. All 3 kids could have gone and it would have been missed had the door been in the right place.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: The General on June 18, 2019, 09:56:00 PM
I must have been a slack parent myself. In my case it would be next morning. Kate wasn't going into the room but she noted the door out of place. If it was quiet, there was no need to check the room itself. All 3 kids could have gone and it would have been missed had the door been in the right place.
I still don't get it. When she got in from the Tapas bar later, she would have checked the kids and she would have discovered one missing?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 18, 2019, 09:58:51 PM
I know this wasn't directed at me, but can you elaborate? What do you mean by 'when the twins woke in the morning'?
Don't you think the hours between 10pm and 7.30am could have been put to far better use by criminals setting a scene and covering their tracks than raising a hue and cry at the earliest opportunity?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 19, 2019, 07:28:17 AM
Why do you suppose Kate raised the alarm around ten pm instead of when the twins woke in the morning?
Because she did a physical check at 10pm and found MM had disappeared. I choose to use the term disappeared rather than abducted as I do not see the conclusive evidence for abduction. If MM came to some fatal harm in the apartment and her body removed this would not be abduction. If MM woke and wandered this would not be abduction.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Lace on June 20, 2019, 11:10:20 AM
That's clarified the front door then, thanks. So although many knew the children were home 'home alone' they would not necessarily know (other than T7) that the patio door was unlocked. Therefore any would be abductor may have entered via the window and then out the front door with MM. If someone entered the bedroom via the window then he/she would land on the bed and surely someone would have noticed some sort of indentation from feet or a body or whatever? Also unlikely the bed was empty probably had children's bits and pieces on eg toys, clothes etc which would be disturbed? I don't recall reading anything about this?
Amaral said there were no marks indicating someone had stood on the bed under the window. Though how they came to that conclusion is beyond me, Kate had slept in that bed on the Wednesday night and so it was unmade.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: kizzy on June 20, 2019, 12:18:21 PM
Amaral said there were no marks indicating someone had stood on the bed under the window. Though how they came to that conclusion is beyond me, Kate had slept in that bed on the Wednesday night and so it was unmade.
How do you know it wasnt made the morning after - maybe that is how they came to that conclusion.
Is that IYO the bed was not made L
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on June 21, 2019, 09:32:43 AM
Amaral said there were no marks indicating someone had stood on the bed under the window. Though how they came to that conclusion is beyond me, Kate had slept in that bed on the Wednesday night and so it was unmade.
In KM's book she tells us precisely how she found MM's bed: top right hand corners of the covers still turned over forming a triangle with Cuddle cat and the pink princess blanket where the McCanns left them.
Surely she means top left hand corners? Why use the word 'still'? Perhaps I'm getting too anorakish 8)><(
Even if the bed was unmade (KM's book states she is a perfectionist not some sort of Waynetta!) the important thing is imo she does not make any mention about the bed under the window. If any would be abductor entered via the window then surely he/she must have left some sort of indentation on the bed and debris from outside which would show on the bed whether it was made or unmade?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on June 21, 2019, 11:53:49 AM
In KM's book she tells us precisely how she found MM's bed: top right hand corners of the covers still turned over forming a triangle with Cuddle cat and the pink princess blanket where the McCanns left them.
Surely she means top left hand corners? Why use the word 'still'? Perhaps I'm getting too anorakish 8)><(
Even if the bed was unmade (KM's book states she is a perfectionist not some sort of Waynetta!) the important thing is imo she does not make any mention about the bed under the window. If any would be abductor entered via the window then surely he/she must have left some sort of indentation on the bed and debris from outside which would show on the bed whether it was made or unmade?
Despite populist opinion there was room to enter the room from the window without stepping on that bed.
It is actually not important, so I don't understand why you think it is.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2019, 11:57:26 AM
Would have been a bit awkward IMO
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 21, 2019, 12:02:13 PM
In KM's book she tells us precisely how she found MM's bed: top right hand corners of the covers still turned over forming a triangle with Cuddle cat and the pink princess blanket where the McCanns left them.
Surely she means top left hand corners? Why use the word 'still'? Perhaps I'm getting too anorakish 8)><(
Even if the bed was unmade (KM's book states she is a perfectionist not some sort of Waynetta!) the important thing is imo she does not make any mention about the bed under the window. If any would be abductor entered via the window then surely he/she must have left some sort of indentation on the bed and debris from outside which would show on the bed whether it was made or unmade?
----- With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. With respect to the other bed next to the window in the children's bedroom he says that it showed no signs that anyone had put their feet on it, namely, dirt or shoe prints. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 21, 2019, 12:50:58 PM
----- With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. With respect to the other bed next to the window in the children's bedroom he says that it showed no signs that anyone had put their feet on it, namely, dirt or shoe prints. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Which is consistent with no one using the window for egress or access.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2019, 01:15:52 PM
Which is consistent with no one using the window for egress or access.
It was quite observant of Gerry to note this. So am I right in thinking Gerry would not have agreed with Kate's impression that an abduction occurred using the window?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Eleanor on June 21, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
It was quite observant of Gerry to note this. So am I right in thinking Gerry would not have agreed with Kate's impression that an abduction occurred using the window?
Using The Window in what way?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 21, 2019, 04:50:12 PM
It was quite observant of Gerry to note this. So am I right in thinking Gerry would not have agreed with Kate's impression that an abduction occurred using the window?
Well according to Mitchell Kate and Gerry are of the view that some one got into the apartment and left through the window as their means of escape.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2019, 06:04:03 PM
As the portal of entry especially (as ones feet would possibly be dusty) or even exit because as Gerry had figured no one had stepped on the bed. Maybe stepping on the bed wasn't essential. There is that photo of a PJ person climbing through the window. Is he stepping onto the bed?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 21, 2019, 06:09:05 PM
As the portal of entry especially (as ones feet would possibly be dusty) or even exit because as Gerry had figured no one had stepped on the bed. Maybe stepping on the bed wasn't essential. There is that photo of a PJ person climbing through the window. Is he stepping onto the bed?
If this mysteron who supposedly abducted used the window why the heck would he do that with a risk of being stuck when there was a perfectly serviceable and open patio door especially if the blighter was supposedly watching the apartment.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2019, 06:16:31 PM
If this mysteron who supposedly abducted used the window why the heck would he do that with a risk of being stuck when there was a perfectly serviceable and open patio door especially if the blighter was supposedly watching the apartment.
There are about 10 different theories all getting jumbled up here. 1. Did the intruder prepare by watching? 2. Did the intruder actually go in the night before? 3. Did the intruder use the window? 4. Did the intruder use the patio door? 5. Did the intruder have a copy of the front door key? 6. Did the abductor not need to go in as Madeleine woke and wandered? and more if I wanted to recall all of them. PS: 7. Did the person open the window and abandon the attempt when a child woke up? 8. Did Madeleine leave via the front door when she heard someone coming in through the patio door? 9. Did Gerry take Madeleine around 9:15 or so? 10 Did Kate fake the abduction scene?
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: barrier on June 21, 2019, 06:19:02 PM
There are about 10 different theories all getting jumbled up here. Did the intruder prepare by watching? Did the intruder actually go in the night before? Did the intruder use the window? Did the intruder use the patio door? Did the intruder have a copy of the front door key? Did the abductor not need to go in as Madeleine woke and wandered? and more if I wanted to recall all of them.
One more and the most important of all,was there a intruder? no one has got past first base yet,that includes the PJ and SY.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 21, 2019, 06:22:35 PM
As the portal of entry especially (as ones feet would possibly be dusty) or even exit because as Gerry had figured no one had stepped on the bed. Maybe stepping on the bed wasn't essential. There is that photo of a PJ person climbing through the window. Is he stepping onto the bed?
Yes, perhaps not, if the abductor had incredibly long legs.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2019, 06:23:25 PM
One more and the most important of all,was there a intruder? no one has got past first base yet,that includes the PJ and SY.
I added 4 more to get to the 10.
"7. Did the person open the window and abandon the attempt when a child woke up? 8. Did Madeleine leave via the front door when she heard someone coming in through the patio door? 9. Did Gerry take Madeleine around 9:15 or so? 10 Did Kate fake the abduction scene?"
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 21, 2019, 06:26:00 PM
"7. Did the person open the window and abandon the attempt when a child woke up? 8. Did Madeleine leave via the front door when she heard someone coming in through the patio door? 9. Did Gerry take Madeleine around 9:15 or so? 10 Did Kate fake the abduction scene?"
did maddie leave through the front door when someone opened the window
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2019, 06:35:25 PM
did maddie leave through the front door when someone opened the window
No - not if it was someone she didn't know. Front door and window practically side by side.
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: John on June 21, 2019, 07:52:06 PM
For those who missed this earlier...
As another weekend approaches can I ask everyone to please follow the forum rules. The hard pressed moderators do an excellent job in keeping things moving so do consider them next time you feel you need to have a go at someone.
Let's try and set a new record this weekend by drastically cutting the number of moderated posts. As an incentive, the prize for the member whose has the most posts moderated/deleted over Saturday and Sunday will be a two day ban.
Happy posting!
Title: Re: Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 24, 2019, 12:12:45 AM