UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on December 27, 2016, 09:57:26 PM
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It would appear that although Grime's competency as a canine handler is questioned day in day out on this site, several police authorities who have rather more experience in the use of cadaver dogs in criminal investigations have employed him many times. According to his company website http://www.gssi.uk.com/Service%20Delivery.htm ( thank you Alfie for the link ) among the agencies to draw on his expertise are :
U.K Policing
Police Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
States of Jersey Police
European Defence Agency – Service Military Advanced Search capability
US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Evidence Response Team Unit (ERTU) – Provision of training and operational deployment canine teams
US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counter Terrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit (CFSRU) – Provision of Expert consultancy
Australian Federal Police
Floyd County Superior Court, Rome Georgia, USA
United States District Court, Detroit, Michigan
Loudoun County Circuit Court, Leesburg, Virginia, USA
Irish Prison Service
California Narcotic Canine Association
And among the cases that he and his dog's expertise have helped to solve are :
Missing woman, reported by partner. He was a craftsman at a large building site. The site was searched and the remains of the woman were recovered from a grave identified by the canine. Subsequent searches for evidence produced numerous positive responses all of which were associated with the vehicle used for transportation and the tools used during the burial process.
A protracted search of large building provided canine responses on the ground floor. The flooring was removed and human bones and teeth were recovered buried in the ground 3-4 feet under the original flooring.
Missing elderly women, investigation revealed interest in a local man who had reported his vehicle stolen which was burnt - out prior to recovery. A search of the vehicle provided positive canine responses. Laboratory testing of burnt material recovered from the vehicle revealed the victim’s DNA. Canine search of the area around the suspects home produced a positive response to the victims grave on a river bank.
In a cold case search for the remains of a child in a wilderness environment the canines were operated with the handlers blind to the search outcome. The canines identified the exact location of three graves from where children had been recovered 40 years previously.
The wife of a farm owner was reported missing. The subsequent search of the house and garage provided canine positive responses to the carpet near to the patio doors leading to the garage where the canine responded to an off road farm vehicle. The body of the woman was later found buried deep into the farm land.
Cold case missing person investigation. An area of interest was searched which resulted in the canine responding to a water filled hole left when a tree fell. Subsequent excavation of the area located the body of the victim buried 70 feet away from the canine response location. The grave was filled with water. This is an example of odor migration via ground water.
A child was reported abducted during a ‘carjacking’. Subsequent searches produced canine responses to the child's bedroom, the father’s vehicle, child's car seat and blanket. At trial the responses were corroborated by anecdotal witness evidence and the father was convicted.
A police officer’s reported his wife as missing. Subsequent searches and screening of his personal property produced several canine responses. He was convicted of homicide and the body of his wife was found some months later.
Family child abduction. Searches provided positive responses to the suspects’ vehicle, in his home and to discarded property nearby. The victim’s blood was recovered from the home and the child's grave was located within ½ mile of the house.
Serial killing of children, investigation led to the identification of a suspect living outdoors. A nearby large derelict warehouse was searched. Canine responses provided the location of two buried children.
Reported suicide was disproved through canine responses during blind searches to body recovery site and master bedroom, scene of homicide.
Following the report of a missing person, a search of a small Island provided canine responses on the beach where a body was recovered having been buried in the sand.
Reports of gangland killings were investigated and subsequent canine searches led to the canine identification of multiple graves where bodies were recovered.
40-year-old cold case gangland killing. A blind canine search of a garage containing over 75 vehicles provided positive responses only to one vehicle. The vehicle was known by investigators to be involved in the kidnapping and homicide.
Following the report of a child abduction a suspect was identified. The suspects’ vehicle was screened by the VRD who responded positively. The victim was found deceased in woodland after the suspect gave the location of the deposition whilst the search was being undertaken. The suspect admitted the homicide and to transporting the cadaver in the vehicle to the deposition site.
A child was reported missing by her parents. An extensive 2 day search was undertaken by S&R volunteers including canine teams that was unsuccessful. The company canine resources were deployed which located the sub surface deposition of the child within 10 minutes.
Two children left alone in the family home. The son reported an intruder had stabbed and killed his sister. The Forensic Canines searched the house and grounds, a screened house contents as removed. Blood evidence recovered by the canines provided such intelligence to suggest the brother was responsible for the death. He subsequently admitted his involvement.
On immediate response to a stabbing homicide scene the HBDD searched for and located the murder weapon hidden in bushes within 10 minutes.
On immediate response to an arson, homicide and rape of an elderly woman the HBDD conducted a search of the neighbourhood and recovered several victim blood stained items, the property of the offender.
On several occasions, items of interest have been brought to the laboratory by investigators for canine screening. The canines have accurately identified items that have been proven to be associated with serious crime.
Is it time now to stop questioning Grime's competency and to reassess why his dogs alerted in PDL ?
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It doesn't seem to have been a very profitable business, considering the company blurb.
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/06943650/GSS-INTERNATIONAL-LIMITED/financials
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It doesn't seem to have been a very profitable business, considering the company blurb.
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/06943650/GSS-INTERNATIONAL-LIMITED/financials
What is the link showing us Misty?
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It would appear that although Grime's competency as a canine handler is questioned day in day out on this site, several police authorities who have rather more experience in the use of cadaver dogs in criminal investigations have employed him many times. According to his company website http://www.gssi.uk.com/Service%20Delivery.htm ( thank you Alfie for the link ) among the agencies to draw on his expertise are :
U.K Policing
Police Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
States of Jersey Police
European Defence Agency – Service Military Advanced Search capability
US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Evidence Response Team Unit (ERTU) – Provision of training and operational deployment canine teams
US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counter Terrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit (CFSRU) – Provision of Expert consultancy
Australian Federal Police
Floyd County Superior Court, Rome Georgia, USA
United States District Court, Detroit, Michigan
Loudoun County Circuit Court, Leesburg, Virginia, USA
Irish Prison Service
California Narcotic Canine Association
And among the cases that he and his dog's expertise have helped to solve are :
Missing woman, reported by partner. He was a craftsman at a large building site. The site was searched and the remains of the woman were recovered from a grave identified by the canine. Subsequent searches for evidence produced numerous positive responses all of which were associated with the vehicle used for transportation and the tools used during the burial process.
A protracted search of large building provided canine responses on the ground floor. The flooring was removed and human bones and teeth were recovered buried in the ground 3-4 feet under the original flooring.
Missing elderly women, investigation revealed interest in a local man who had reported his vehicle stolen which was burnt - out prior to recovery. A search of the vehicle provided positive canine responses. Laboratory testing of burnt material recovered from the vehicle revealed the victim’s DNA. Canine search of the area around the suspects home produced a positive response to the victims grave on a river bank.
In a cold case search for the remains of a child in a wilderness environment the canines were operated with the handlers blind to the search outcome. The canines identified the exact location of three graves from where children had been recovered 40 years previously.
The wife of a farm owner was reported missing. The subsequent search of the house and garage provided canine positive responses to the carpet near to the patio doors leading to the garage where the canine responded to an off road farm vehicle. The body of the woman was later found buried deep into the farm land.
Cold case missing person investigation. An area of interest was searched which resulted in the canine responding to a water filled hole left when a tree fell. Subsequent excavation of the area located the body of the victim buried 70 feet away from the canine response location. The grave was filled with water. This is an example of odor migration via ground water.
A child was reported abducted during a ‘carjacking’. Subsequent searches produced canine responses to the child's bedroom, the father’s vehicle, child's car seat and blanket. At trial the responses were corroborated by anecdotal witness evidence and the father was convicted.
A police officer’s reported his wife as missing. Subsequent searches and screening of his personal property produced several canine responses. He was convicted of homicide and the body of his wife was found some months later.
Family child abduction. Searches provided positive responses to the suspects’ vehicle, in his home and to discarded property nearby. The victim’s blood was recovered from the home and the child's grave was located within ½ mile of the house.
Serial killing of children, investigation led to the identification of a suspect living outdoors. A nearby large derelict warehouse was searched. Canine responses provided the location of two buried children.
Reported suicide was disproved through canine responses during blind searches to body recovery site and master bedroom, scene of homicide.
Following the report of a missing person, a search of a small Island provided canine responses on the beach where a body was recovered having been buried in the sand.
Reports of gangland killings were investigated and subsequent canine searches led to the canine identification of multiple graves where bodies were recovered.
40-year-old cold case gangland killing. A blind canine search of a garage containing over 75 vehicles provided positive responses only to one vehicle. The vehicle was known by investigators to be involved in the kidnapping and homicide.
Following the report of a child abduction a suspect was identified. The suspects’ vehicle was screened by the VRD who responded positively. The victim was found deceased in woodland after the suspect gave the location of the deposition whilst the search was being undertaken. The suspect admitted the homicide and to transporting the cadaver in the vehicle to the deposition site.
A child was reported missing by her parents. An extensive 2 day search was undertaken by S&R volunteers including canine teams that was unsuccessful. The company canine resources were deployed which located the sub surface deposition of the child within 10 minutes.
Two children left alone in the family home. The son reported an intruder had stabbed and killed his sister. The Forensic Canines searched the house and grounds, a screened house contents as removed. Blood evidence recovered by the canines provided such intelligence to suggest the brother was responsible for the death. He subsequently admitted his involvement.
On immediate response to a stabbing homicide scene the HBDD searched for and located the murder weapon hidden in bushes within 10 minutes.
On immediate response to an arson, homicide and rape of an elderly woman the HBDD conducted a search of the neighbourhood and recovered several victim blood stained items, the property of the offender.
On several occasions, items of interest have been brought to the laboratory by investigators for canine screening. The canines have accurately identified items that have been proven to be associated with serious crime.
Is it time now to stop questioning Grime's competency and to reassess why his dogs alerted in PDL ?
Perhaps you could tell us why his dogs alerted then?
BTW: interesting that in his long list of successes Grime chooses not to give us a single cite for the cases so they cannot be challenged.
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It doesn't seem to have been a very profitable business, considering the company blurb.
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/06943650/GSS-INTERNATIONAL-LIMITED/financials
Wow. Interesting. I think this puts things in perspective. Perhaps the dogs have their own separate company and that's where all the cash is.
PS: I hope Grim filed his accounts on time, looks like he'd struggle to pay the fine... @)(++(*
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Perhaps you could tell us why his dogs alerted then?
BTW: interesting that in his long list of successes Grime chooses not to give us a single cite for the cases so they cannot be challenged.
Interesting how?
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The dogs are incredibly useful and valuable
Their value lies in the evidence they find
If they didn't fond evidence they would be totally useless
It really is as simple as that and is very telling that the sceptics do not understand this very simple fact
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It doesn't seem to have been a very profitable business, considering the company blurb.
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/06943650/GSS-INTERNATIONAL-LIMITED/financials
I see nothing wrong with the profitability. There is cash in the bank account and it owes no large amounts. I have seen much worse figures for a small business.
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I see nothing wrong with the profitability. There is cash in the bank account and it owes no large amounts. I have seen much worse figures for a small business.
Yep, but misty is right. It doesn't seem to have been very profitable, especially more recently. Last figures shown are for mid 2015. Started in Mid 2010.
Total current assets are more or less as when it started, having peaked nicely in 2010
Still if it feeds Martins dogs + a bit more, that is a good thing
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Yep, but misty is right. It doesn't seem to have been very profitable, especially more recently. Last figures shown are for mid 2015. Started in Mid 2010.
Total current assets are more or less as when it started, having peaked nicely in 2010
Still if it feeds Martins dogs + a bit more, that is a good thing
I note an absence of the P & L and Balance Sheet in these learned discussions.
Maybe you, Alfie and Misty can have a whip between you to cover the signing on fee for GSS then obtain the aforementioned documents. Then we could see what we are really talking about......................... oh I forgot that's not part of the script is it ?.
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I note an absence of the P & L and Balance Sheet in these learned discussions.
Maybe you, Alfie and Misty can have a whip between you to cover the signing on fee for GSS then obtain the aforementioned documents. Then we could see what we are really talking about......................... oh I forgot that's not part of the script is it ?.
How about you paying? You are rich, are you not?
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I note an absence of the P & L and Balance Sheet in these learned discussions.
Maybe you, Alfie and Misty can have a whip between you to cover the signing on fee for GSS then obtain the aforementioned documents. Then we could see what we are really talking about......................... oh I forgot that's not part of the script is it ?.
Is this what you want, Alice?
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How about you paying? You are rich, are you not?
I couldn't possiby say.
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Is this what you want, Alice?
Well it is part of it, cheers.
The P & L would be better as it will give an indication of how profitable the company is. Being a small company, however, it is not obliged to file a P & L.
If the company cashed up now the shareholders would have £12k distribution.
Like G-Unit said earlier I have seen companies in a worse state that remained trading.
Without the P & L we have no measure of the amount of business the company does which in it's turn would be a part measure of it's success. The figures on the link you posted indicate the company reduced it's liabilities by £97K in three years so It can't be that flaky.
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Well it is part of it, cheers.
The P & L would be better as it will give an indication of how profitable the company is. Being a small company, however, it is not obliged to file a P & L.
If the company cashed up now the shareholders would have £12k distribution.
Like G-Unit said earlier I have seen companies in a worse state that remained trading.
Without the P & L we have no measure of the amount of business the company does which in it's turn would be a part measure of it's success. The figures on the link you posted indicate the company reduced it's liabilities by £97K in three years so It can't be that flaky.
One would guess it is not a capital asset type of company.
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One would guess it is not a capital asset type of company.
It seemed to have had about £107k in assets in about 2013(? I can't be arsed to the check the actual date but it's on the link).
They will have been written down to give a book value but they will also have a market value which may be in excess of the book value.
The "fixed" assetts I presume to be dawgs and tack and the means to store them. Transport I guess is lease hire and office accommodation rented.
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Obviously the U.K Policing, Police Scotland, Police Service of Northern Ireland, States of Jersey Police, European Defence Agency – Service Military Advanced Search capability, US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Evidence Response Team Unit (ERTU) – Provision of training and operational deployment canine teams, US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counter Terrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit (CFSRU) – Provision of Expert consultancy, Australian Federal Police, Floyd County Superior Court, Rome Georgia, USA, United States District Court, Detroit, Michigan, Loudoun County Circuit Court, Leesburg, Virginia, USA, Irish Prison Service and the California Narcotic Canine Association were rather less interested in Grime's company P&L details than it would appear the supporters are and rather more interested in his and his dog's competency.
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Obviously the U.K Policing, Police Scotland, Police Service of Northern Ireland, States of Jersey Police, European Defence Agency – Service Military Advanced Search capability, US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Evidence Response Team Unit (ERTU) – Provision of training and operational deployment canine teams, US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counter Terrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit (CFSRU) – Provision of Expert consultancy, Australian Federal Police, Floyd County Superior Court, Rome Georgia, USA, United States District Court, Detroit, Michigan, Loudoun County Circuit Court, Leesburg, Virginia, USA, Irish Prison Service and the California Narcotic Canine Association were rather less interested in Grime's company P&L details than it would appear the supporters are and rather more interested in his and his dog's competency.
I don't believe you read the list of services GSS Int. provides, Faithlilly, because you would know that Grime isn't qualified to provide them all himself.
Speaking of Michigan....
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.557.9512&rep=rep1&type=pdf
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I don't believe you read the list of services GSS Int. provides, Faithlilly, because you would know that Grime isn't qualified to provide them all himself.
Speaking of Michigan....
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.557.9512&rep=rep1&type=pdf
He has worked with all the agencies detailed above. You might not like it misty but there it is.
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I don't believe you read the list of services GSS Int. provides, Faithlilly, because you would know that Grime isn't qualified to provide them all himself.
Speaking of Michigan....
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.557.9512&rep=rep1&type=pdf
He doesn't have to be.
The Company has to be. That is perfectly normal practice.
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Remind me how much Grime's dogs were reputed to earn in a day, someone please?
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Interesting how?
Interesting in that none of his claimed successes can be independently verified. I'm sure if it was a McCann list of claimed successes you'd be demanding third party, independent verification!
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He doesn't have to be.
The Company has to be. That is perfectly normal practice.
I agree, But he didn't set up the company, did he? And where does loaning out money fall under the scope of GSS business?
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What would lend the GSS website a great deal more credibility would be a list of testimonials by named clients. Perhaps someone should suggest this to Grime. I won't charge him for the advice btw.
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I agree, But he didn't set up the company, did he? And where does loaning out money fall under the scope of GSS business?
1.He and a Mr Jenkins set up the company.
2.It is covered in article 3 (h) of the Articles of Association ......ref your link.
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1.He and a Mr Jenkins set up the company.
2.It is covered in article 3 (h) of the Articles of Association ......ref your link.
Don't the articles of association seem at odds with the nature of the company?
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Don't the articles of association seem at odds with the nature of the company?
No!
Well not if you understand the nature of how these things are done.
Companies House were content it was in order; why shouldn't you be?
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I don't believe you read the list of services GSS Int. provides, Faithlilly, because you would know that Grime isn't qualified to provide them all himself.
Speaking of Michigan....
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.557.9512&rep=rep1&type=pdf
"Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams;
the islands and bays are for sportsmen". Gordon Lightfoot ca 1976.............. 8(>((
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"Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams;
the islands and bays are for sportsmen". Gordon Lightfoot ca 1976.............. 8(>((
Never heard of that one before, Alice. I remember Sundown & If you could read my mind.
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No!
Well not if you understand the nature of how these things are done.
Companies House were content it was in order; why shouldn't you be?
I just keep thinking that if those AoA's were attached to the FMLNSU Ltd.......
So, even with a P&L sheet it would be impossible to tell how well the Canine Handling aspect of the business had fared since Luz.
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Never heard of that one before, Alice. I remember Sundown & If you could read my mind.
It's from "The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald". Sundown was a bit naughty in places as I recall.
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I just keep thinking that if those AoA's were attached to the FMLNSU Ltd.......
So, even with a P&L sheet it would be impossible to tell how well the Canine Handling aspect of the business had fared since Luz.
That would depend on how the accountant chose to delineate the areas of trading. The company was set up in 2009 btw.
Most small companies will adopt Companies House Model Form AoAs which pretty much say the company can do what it likes to turn a squid or two as long as it is legal and in accordance with the Companies Act 2006.
It's so you can buy a company off the shelf and not worry about the actual business. Today a Fellmonger and tomorrow a Diamond Cutter.
There would be nothing wrong with FMLNSU Ltd operating to Model Forms of AoAs. In practical terms it has only added in more prescriptive objectives......I think. I haven't read them for a while so am going on memory.
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Interesting in that none of his claimed successes can be independently verified. I'm sure if it was a McCann list of claimed successes you'd be demanding third party, independent verification!
I'm sure if Mr Grime would be able to supply independent verification if asked to by any party interested in using the service he offers, don't you? In the end isn't that what's important?
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I'm sure if Mr Grime would be able to supply independent verification if asked to by any party interested in using the service he offers, don't you? In the end isn't that what's important?
I've no idea what he would and wouldn't be able to supply, but you seem to trust him implicitly which is lovely.
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Perhaps you could tell us why his dogs alerted then?
BTW: interesting that in his long list of successes Grime chooses not to give us a single cite for the cases so they cannot be challenged.
You took the words out of my mouth, Alfie.
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This is what Wiltshire Police made of Grime's contribution at Haut de la Garenne:
We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
DCO HARPER.
3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
Page 116 of 383
Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
matter further.
3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
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I'm sure if Mr Grime would be able to supply independent verification if asked to by any party interested in using the service he offers, don't you? In the end isn't that what's important?
In someplaces it would be considered relevant. In the PdL Bubble it has no relevance whatsoever.
Did you ever watch South Park ?
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Interesting that Grime appears to have retained his identical profile post Praia da Luz to the one he used when he applied for the position at PdL.
If he didn't update or amend it at all, it will still have declared that he is a 'serving' officer with South Yorkshire Police ....
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Remind me how much Grime's dogs were reputed to earn in a day, someone please?
When I find the link, I'll be able to tell you how much Eddie actually earnt.
Meanwhile, here's keela:
Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become so accomplished a sniffer dog that she can earn more than her chief constable.
She spends most of her working life on crime scene investigations in her native south Yorkshire. But in quiet times she and her handlers, PCs Martin Grimes and John Ellis, are hired out to other forces for £530 a day plus expenses.
If she worked every day, this would add up to nearly £200,000 a year - £70,000 more than her chief constable, Med Hughes.
Keela's sense of smell is so keen that she can sniff out blood on clothes even after they have been washed repeatedly in biological powder. She can also pick out microscopic amounts of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed "clean" after an attack.
Detectives then use her initial assessment to determine the course of their investigations.
"We have been in situations where the place appears to be so clean than the scene-of- crime experts can't find any evidence," said Pc Ellis. "But we take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood.
"It's not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. We have two other dogs that will find the haystack; Keela will find the needle."
He added: "When we are called in by other forces they are obviously charged a fee. It's quite funny to think that she can earn more than the chief constable."
Pc Grimes said Keela had to be trained to alert her handler in a different way. "Normal recovery dogs will bark to signal a find, but in this case it is not appropriate," he said.
"Instead the dog will locate the contaminated area by pointing at the spot where the blood is situated. This is much more accurate."
The next step in Keela's career is an expenses-paid trip to help the FBI. "The Americans are very interested in how we work because they don't have this sort of facility," said Pc Ellis.
"At the moment they have to use civilian help. The quality can be variable so they have had their fingers burnt a few times."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1506609/The-police-dog-that-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable.html
And lo:
Answer to the question of how much Eddie earnt emboldened in the link below, together with the confirmation that Eddie's training was (sic) in accordance with standard ACPO guidelines (which say nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains).
I would like to request the following under the FOI Act:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
3. What does the South Yorkshire constabulary charge for Eddie the sniffer dog’s services?
4. Please could you provide a breakdown of the fees and expenses charged for each case Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog has been deployed in outside the South Yorkshire area in the last three years?
5. To whom is money made payable for the services of Eddie the sniffer dog?
6. Who owns Eddie the sniffer dog?
7. What training did Eddie receive to assist him in his duties?
Exemptions Applied:
None
SYP Response:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:
As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.
All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces.
Two deployments for Ellis/Frankie were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remaining three were to external forces.
3. What does the South Yorkshire constabulary charge for Eddie the sniffer dog’s services?
The daily charges for the deployment of Eddie were £700 per day Monday to Friday and £900 per day for weekly leave days and bank holidays. These charges have not changed over the last five years and are still applicable to date.
4. Please could you provide a breakdown of the fees and expenses charged for each case Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog has been deployed in outside the South Yorkshire area in the last three years?
The breakdown for the fees and expenses charged for the deployment of Eddie the Springer Spaniel Victim Search Dog outside the force area are calculated as follows:
The figures are based on 2006-2007 costing:
Salary cost Police Constable: £41,900, 8 hour productive day £192.20
Deployment based on 16 hour day Mon to Friday more than 7 days notice
Cost for 8 hour working day
Cost for 8 hours overtime
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £837 but SYP would charge £700
Deployment based on 16 hour day Saturday or Sunday including Bank Holidays or less 7 days notice
Cost for 16 hours at double time
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £1035.50 but SYP would charge £900
5. To whom is money made payable for the services of Eddie the sniffer dog?
All monies received for the deployment of Eddie during his time with South Yorkshire Police were paid to South Yorkshire Police.
6. Who owns Eddie the sniffer dog?
Ownership of Eddie was transferred from South Yorkshire Police to his handler Martin Grime when he retired from the Force in 2007.
7. What training did Eddie receive to assist him in his duties?
When Eddie was with South Yorkshire Police he received training in line with the ACPO dog committee standards for specialist dog training. The training was and in relation to current dogs is 18 days per annum.
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/dog_training_manual.doc
FOI Category:
Investigations
-
Of course, these days, Grime works for a private dog-handling club for private citizens and dog-owners that, I believe, he founded.
-
Why are there no professional accreditations displayed on his website?
-
Of course, these days, Grime works for a private dog-handling club for private citizens and dog-owners that, I believe, he founded.
Grime owns and runs his own small company, from which, I assume, he draws a salary.
-
Why are there no professional accreditations displayed on his website?
Is there a professional association for what he does?
-
Is there a professional association for what he does?
You'd think there should be wouldn't you, or is it one of those fields where anyone can set up a business claiming to be a VRD handler if they have a dog and an interest in finding dead things?
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You'd think there should be wouldn't you, or is it one of those fields where anyone can set up a business claiming to be a VRD handler if they have a dog and an interest in finding dead things?
It is your prior reputation that will count for everything.
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You'd think there should be wouldn't you, or is it one of those fields where anyone can set up a business claiming to be a VRD handler if they have a dog and an interest in finding dead things?
Spot on.
"Although there is no formal set of qualifications needed to work as a dog handler, you will have to meet the entry requirements of the organisation you are planning on working for".
There is no institute to govern doggies and handlers such as is found in all branches of engineering to govern engineers professional activities and qualifications .
-
Spot on.
"Although there is no formal set of qualifications needed to work as a dog handler, you will have to meet the entry requirements of the organisation you are planning on working for".
There is no institute to govern doggies and handlers such as is found in all branches of engineering to govern engineers professional activities and qualifications .
What does this refer to then?
I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales) accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement Agency) Expert Advisers database.
I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.
I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
I am regularly deployed to homicide cases within my portfolio and form a 'Specialist Canine Homicide Search Team' including the S.A.M dog teams from Dyfed Powys and USA.
I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs:
'Eddie' is a 7-year-old English Springer spaniel dog who is trained as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD).
'Keela' is a three-year old English Springer spaniel bitch who is trained as an Human blood search dog (C.S.I. dog).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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What does this refer to then?
I am a U.K.A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers, England and Wales) accredited police dog training instructor. I am a Subject Matter Expert in forensic canine search and on the N.P.I.A. (National Policing Improvement Agency) Expert Advisers database.
I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation.
I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
I am regularly deployed to homicide cases within my portfolio and form a 'Specialist Canine Homicide Search Team' including the S.A.M dog teams from Dyfed Powys and USA.
I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs:
'Eddie' is a 7-year-old English Springer spaniel dog who is trained as an Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD).
'Keela' is a three-year old English Springer spaniel bitch who is trained as an Human blood search dog (C.S.I. dog).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
I don't know ; you dug it up you tell me what it refers to. It seems to fit in with the bit I quoted : "you will have to meet the entry requirements of the organisation you are planning on working for".
When you find an organistion equivalent to IMechE, CITB or UKAS that govern doggies and their handlers let me know. Until then I'll go with:
"Although there is no formal set of qualifications needed to work as a dog handler, you will have to meet the entry requirements of the organisation you are planning on working for".
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Is there a professional association for what he does?
There is a lot more than just forensic canine handling displayed on the website.
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Grime owns and runs his own small company, from which, I assume, he draws a salary.
At one time there was a blurb on a web-site written by the person who manages the club (I believe, Liz Hann?) listing all the employees working at the club, including Grime and saying about him: we are lucky to have him.
In fairness, I have no particular reason to doubt that he does (or did) give the club good value.
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@ Alfie & Misty:
Do you accept the website is that of a Limited Company ?
It is a simple question to which the answer is either yes or no not a ream of twaddle or 20 metres of cut and paste.
-
@ Alfie & Misty:
Do you accept the website is that of a Limited Company ?
It is a simple question to which the answer is either yes or no not a ream of twaddle or 20 metres of cut and paste.
Yes - why?
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@ Alfie & Misty:
Do you accept the website is that of a Limited Company ?
It is a simple question to which the answer is either yes or no not a ream of twaddle or 20 metres of cut and paste.
Ask the question again but without the rudeness and I will answer.
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Ask the question again but without the rudeness and I will answer.
Suit yourself.
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Yes - why?
It relates to whether Mr Grime's credentials would/would not be put on the web site. As there is no nationally recognised accredition body the company can do little other than say the personnel and equipment are trained and tested at regular intervals.
Cutting to the chase were I thinking of employing the organisation I would at the time of RTQ ask to look at their insurances EL, PL, CAR & PI. Oddly only EL is a legal requirement. Absence of the others unless the company is cash filthyrich enough to self insure would be a show stopper.
In the absence of an institute or nationally recognised accreditation authority I would also look for at least two references I could visit.
What I wouldn't do is the ask the opinion of internet punters who were taking sides in a controversial case the company had been involved in.
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It relates to whether Mr Grime's credentials would/would not be put on the web site. As there is no nationally recognised accredition body the company can do little other than say the personnel and equipment are trained and tested at regular intervals.
Cutting to the chase were I thinking of employing the organisation I would at the time of RTQ ask to look at their insurances EL, PL, CAR & PI. Oddly only EL is a legal requirement. Absence of the others unless the company is cash filthyrich enough to self insure would be a show stopper.
In the absence of an institute or nationally recognised accreditation authority I would also look for at least two references I could visit.
What I wouldn't do is the ask the opinion of internet punters who were taking sides in a controversial case the company had been involved in.
Here's an example of a website which provides accreditation from various bodies in connection with its dogs & also confirms the frequency with which the handlers attend NPCC training (NPCC has replaced ACPO).
http://www.k9patrol.co.uk/our-accreditations
There seem to be several people advertising specialist dog training in the UK on the internet, including this company employing a specialist https://www.facebook.com/events/1011861982226551/.
With reference to EL Insurance, GSSi lists no employees therefore no EL is required. I presume when work outside MG's own speciality is contracted out he ensures that the contractor has appropriate PL insurance.
The opinion on Grime's business was raised by a poster & sanctioned by a mod. Perhaps it's a topic which shouldn't be here at all.
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At one time there was a blurb on a web-site written by the person who manages the club (I believe, Liz Hann?) listing all the employees working at the club, including Grime and saying about him: we are lucky to have him.
In fairness, I have no particular reason to doubt that he does (or did) give the club good value.
I think we are at cross purposes. Martin Grime owns and works through GSS Ltd. Liz Han, as far as I can see, is associated with Abingdon Dog Training Club.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/training/good-citizen-dog-training-scheme/information-for-dog-owners/good-citizen-dog-scheme-training-clubs/dog-training-clubs-in-oxfordshire/
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Upon the use of his expertise by some of the most highly respected law enforcement agencies in the world. Do you doubt his expertise?
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Upon the use of his expertise by some of the most highly respected law enforcement agencies in the world. Do you doubt his expertise?
So it's your view that anyone who is employed by the police on a regular basis must be entirely above criticism or have his abilities questioned or doubted, correct?
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Upon the use of his expertise by some of the most highly respected law enforcement agencies in the world. Do you doubt his expertise?
Dunno.
Who employs him now?
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So it's your view that anyone who is employed by the police on a regular basis must be entirely above criticism or have his abilities questioned or doubted, correct?
Please don't put words into my mouth. I was simply saying that some of the most highly respected law enforcement agencies in the world pay for his services when they obviously have canine handlers closer to home and probably at less cost is a very clear indicator of the value they put on his expertise.
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It is not an exact science, as Judge Belvin Perry Junior pointed out.
-
Here's an example of a website which provides accreditation from various bodies in connection with its dogs & also confirms the frequency with which the handlers attend NPCC training (NPCC has replaced ACPO).
http://www.k9patrol.co.uk/our-accreditations
There seem to be several people advertising specialist dog training in the UK on the internet, including this company employing a specialist https://www.facebook.com/events/1011861982226551/.
With reference to EL Insurance, GSSi lists no employees therefore no EL is required. I presume when work outside MG's own speciality is contracted out he ensures that the contractor has appropriate PL insurance.
The opinion on Grime's business was raised by a poster & sanctioned by a mod. Perhaps it's a topic which shouldn't be here at all.
That shows just how far out of your depth you are.
Rule 1: Always check the definitions.
All the information that has been forthcoming so far has indicated that Mr Grime is a director of a trading company with more assets than liablities and cash in the bank. The website shows the company has a client base for which works are/were carried out. There would appear to be no claims against him for any nefarious activities or bogus claims.
So what's the issue?
It is possible to libel a limited company so I would suggest posters and mods are bit cute on this.
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The question is: Can We Gauge Grime's Competency as a Canine Handler by His Work After PDL
I have produced evidence which suggests we can.
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At HdLG; I'll bet the good citizens of Jersey give thanks each day that Grime benevolently gave them a discount on his fees.
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Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.
'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'
Dave Warcup, Jersey's acting chief police officer, told The Mail on Sunday that he had appointed an independent team of auditors to examine Harper's spending. It includes two forensic accountants and a police expert in seizing criminals' assets.
The team's interim report, seen by this newspaper, reveals that Grime was paid £750 a day for the first seven days he spent on the island and £650 a day for the following 136 days.
Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog'.
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.
ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.
Asked about the 'human remains' found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: 'People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human.'
The auditors' interim report concludes: 'It was an expensive mistake to bring in Mr Grime. It would have been far preferable and much cheaper to have tried to obtain appropriately trained dogs and handlers from UK police forces.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html
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Grimes competence was compromised by a conflict of interest imo
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Grimes competence was compromised by a conflict of interest imo
Yes!
He was keen to get his name in lights at the start of his freelance career.
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Grimes competence was compromised by a conflict of interest imo
I disagree, Grime was constrained by the facilities provided to him which in the event were not ideal. Eddie did give positive alerts however and that will never change despite the humbug.
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I disagree, Grime was constrained by the facilities provided to him which in the event were not ideal. Eddie did give positive alerts however and that will never change despite the humbug.
And according to the experts no inference can be drawn from the alerts without any forensic confirmation
That's the undeniable truth despite what some posters would like to think
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I disagree, Grime was constrained by the facilities provided to him which in the event were not ideal. Eddie did give positive alerts however and that will never change despite the humbug.
"Constrained" in what sense?
What "facilities"?
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I disagree, Grime was constrained by the facilities provided to him which in the event were not ideal. Eddie did give positive alerts however and that will never change despite the humbug.
And what humbug
If you don't understand the insignificance of unconfirmed alerts then you will have serious difficulty in reaching the correct conclusions
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I wonder if Grime realised his admission that the alerts only have value if there is forensic confirmation would be broadcast all over the net
It can't have been good for his business
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Without having a full history of Martin Grime's employment record after his stint in Praia da Luz and Jersey it is a very difficult remit for members to go anywhere near the demands of the thread title.
In fact I think the collective informed knowledge of members along the lines required to stay on topic has proved to be exceedingly limited
So as usual your opinion is spot on.
As far as I know, Martin Grime's accreditation for training and working dogs is for life and one can only imagine his expertise will only increase the longer he continues.
I think the problem arising from the inspections in Praia da Luz was the misinterpretation and misplaced emphasis placed on the dog alerts before they had been verified by forensics.
That was not entirely the fault of the handler and his dogs. In my opinion having been used to working with police who understood the concept the handler underestimated the lack of understanding of most of the Portuguese investigators. Thus the combination of impatience in waiting for results from forensics and desperation to make an arrest proved a toxic mix which had disastrous consequences.
It is probably highly unusual for so much of an investigation to hinge on the results of the interim and unverified work of a dog team. One seldom hears of the working 'failures' and 'successes' of such in court ... only the resultant evidence is produced.
Perhaps, apart from American cases where Martin Grime has appeared as an expert witness, that is why we know so little of his subsequent working life post Praia da Luz which may have very well been an aberration in normal working practices.
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Without having a full history of Martin Grime's employment record after his stint in Praia da Luz and Jersey it is a very difficult remit for members to go anywhere near the demands of the thread title.
In fact I think the collective informed knowledge of members along the lines required to stay on topic has proved to be exceedingly limited
So as usual your opinion is spot on.
As far as I know, Martin Grime's accreditation for training and working dogs is for life and one can only imagine his expertise will only increase the longer he continues.
I think the problem arising from the inspections in Praia da Luz was the misinterpretation and misplaced emphasis placed on the dog alerts before they had been verified by forensics.
That was not entirely the fault of the handler and his dogs. In my opinion having been used to working with police who understood the concept the handler underestimated the lack of understanding of most of the Portuguese investigators. Thus the combination of impatience in waiting for results from forensics and desperation to make an arrest proved a toxic mix which had disastrous consequences.
It is probably highly unusual for so much of an investigation to hinge on the results of the interim and unverified work of a dog team. One seldom hears of the working 'failures' and 'successes' of such in court ... only the resultant evidence is produced.
Perhaps, apart from American cases where Martin Grime has appeared as an expert witness, that is why we know so little of his subsequent working life post Praia da Luz which may have very well been an aberration in normal working practices.
Good post.
I think the most revealing post-Praia da Luz assignment of Grime's was the Bianca Jones case in America, mainly for its parallels in Grime's modus operandi with that he adopted in Praia da Luz.
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Good post.
I think the most revealing post-Praia da Luz assignment of Grime's was the Bianca Jones case in America, mainly for its parallels in Grime's modus operandi with that he adopted in Praia da Luz.
My favourite was the Jersey Haut de la Garenne sniffer dog fiasco branded a £20 million shambles.
The evidence of lavish expenses claims and extraordinary financial waste includes paying £93,000 to Martin Grime, the handler of the sniffer dog Eddie, who was charged with the grim task of finding children’s bodies that were supposedly entombed in concrete in the institution, known as ‘the Jersey House of Horrors’, which closed in 1986.
To date the ‘human remains’ that triggered the storm surrounding the case have turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html
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My favourite was the Jersey Haut de la Garenne sniffer dog fiasco.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html
Fiasco is certainly the right word
But at least, in Jersey, innocent reputations weren't mired.
The biggest scandal to emerge from the Haut de la Garenne fiasco is this:
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.
Eddie the sniffer dog with handler Martin Grime
False trails: Eddie the sniffer dog with handler Martin Grime
'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'
Grime was handed the video of the 'inspection' of vehicles at PdL so that he could use it for promotional purposes in his (further) freelance career, and used it to promote himself when he auditioned for the gig at HdLG.
If that sounds bad, what is (arguably) worse is that, for that PdL inspection (alone of them all at PdL) he wore the white, anti cross-contamination overalls of his trade.
All very rum
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In the nine plus years since Martin Grime was in PdL he appears to have been working through his company GSS International Ltd using the experience and expertise gained during his Police Service.
The company appears to be solvent and has provided him with an income during those years. That suggests that he is competent in his chosen field.
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Thursday, Aug. 7, 2014
http://www.kitsapgov.com/sheriff/mediareleases/2014/08-07%20Child%20death%20investigation%20update%201.pdf
(https://s28.postimg.org/7wiczvtal/martingrimefbi.jpg)
Child death investigation
East Bremerton, Wash. -- The Kitsap County Sheriff’s Office continues its
investigation into the suspicious death of Jenise Paulette Wright, age six, in East
Bremerton.
Jenise was reported missing by her family Sunday evening, Aug. 3, from her residence
in Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, located off of Old Military Road NE, in East
Bremerton.
Earlier today, search teams located the remains of a child. The body was found around
11:30 a.m., by special agents and professional staff of the FBI’s Evidence Research
Team, in a forested area in the vicinity of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park.
The body is now in the custody of the Kitsap County Coroner. We are awaiting
confirmation of the child’s identity by the coroner; however it appears that the body is
that of Jenise. Sheriff’s detectives expect that formal identification may occur tomorrow.
The family has been notified.
An autopsy will be conducted tomorrow by the county’s forensic pathologist. The
coroner will make a determination as to cause and manner of death.
Initial results of the autopsy will assist detectives in narrowing the investigation toward a
possible suspect.
The FBI’s Evidence Response Team has finished their processing of the scene where
the body was found. The Washington State Patrol’s Criminal Investigation Division is
forensically mapping that location.
This discovery is the result of the coordination of three things: valuable cooperation and
information provided by community, the pursuit of investigative leads and a thorough,
systematic search effort. At this time, there are no arrests in this case.
The assistance of the community is the most critical. The FBI’s national tip line, 1-800-
CALL-FBI, was activated on Monday for this case and remains open.
2
Kitsap County Sheriff Steve Boyer together with Special Agent Frank Montoya, Jr.,
Special Agent in Charge of the FBI Field Office, Seattle, wish to express the
appreciation of the residents of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, the residents of East
Bremerton and the entire investigation team to the seven members of the FBI’s
Specialty Search Dogs Unit.
After receiving reports from volunteer search and rescue K-9 teams indicating a general
interest in a particular area, it was this team, with their K-9 partners, that located the
child’s body believed to be that of Jenise Wright.
(https://therinjfoundationfreeposters.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/the-rinj-foundation-jenise_paulette_wright.jpg)
-
Thursday, Aug. 7, 2014
http://www.kitsapgov.com/sheriff/mediareleases/2014/08-07%20Child%20death%20investigation%20update%201.pdf
(https://s28.postimg.org/7wiczvtal/martingrimefbi.jpg)
Child death investigation
East Bremerton, Wash. -- The Kitsap County Sheriff’s Office continues its
investigation into the suspicious death of Jenise Paulette Wright, age six, in East
Bremerton.
Jenise was reported missing by her family Sunday evening, Aug. 3, from her residence
in Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, located off of Old Military Road NE, in East
Bremerton.
Earlier today, search teams located the remains of a child. The body was found around
11:30 a.m., by special agents and professional staff of the FBI’s Evidence Research
Team, in a forested area in the vicinity of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park.
The body is now in the custody of the Kitsap County Coroner. We are awaiting
confirmation of the child’s identity by the coroner; however it appears that the body is
that of Jenise. Sheriff’s detectives expect that formal identification may occur tomorrow.
The family has been notified.
An autopsy will be conducted tomorrow by the county’s forensic pathologist. The
coroner will make a determination as to cause and manner of death.
Initial results of the autopsy will assist detectives in narrowing the investigation toward a
possible suspect.
The FBI’s Evidence Response Team has finished their processing of the scene where
the body was found. The Washington State Patrol’s Criminal Investigation Division is
forensically mapping that location.
This discovery is the result of the coordination of three things: valuable cooperation and
information provided by community, the pursuit of investigative leads and a thorough,
systematic search effort. At this time, there are no arrests in this case.
The assistance of the community is the most critical. The FBI’s national tip line, 1-800-
CALL-FBI, was activated on Monday for this case and remains open.
2
Kitsap County Sheriff Steve Boyer together with Special Agent Frank Montoya, Jr.,
Special Agent in Charge of the FBI Field Office, Seattle, wish to express the
appreciation of the residents of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, the residents of East
Bremerton and the entire investigation team to the seven members of the FBI’s
Specialty Search Dogs Unit.
After receiving reports from volunteer search and rescue K-9 teams indicating a general
interest in a particular area, it was this team, with their K-9 partners, that located the
child’s body believed to be that of Jenise Wright.
(https://therinjfoundationfreeposters.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/the-rinj-foundation-jenise_paulette_wright.jpg)
Thanks for posting that Pathfinder. 8((()*/
Clealy Grime as others and me have said, has a successful career.
-
It's a mark of how well regarded Grime is that he is used by the FBI. They have all the US to choose from and they chose to bring him over from the UK. He must be extremely good at what he does.
-
It's a mark of how well regarded Grime is that he is used by the FBI. They have all the US to choose from and they chose to bring him over from the UK. He must be extremely good at what he does.
How much work does he do for them
-
It's a mark of how well regarded Grime is that he is used by the FBI. They have all the US to choose from and they chose to bring him over from the UK. He must be extremely good at what he does.
Perhaps you could put that remark into context with some actual figures - eg: how many times the FBI have used "cadaver" dogs in the last 10 years, and how many of those times they used Martin Grime.
-
Perhaps gunit could cite a couple of cases where Grime has made a useful contribution to a prosecution for the FBI
-
How much work does he do for them
I expect you can find out if you're interested.
-
I expect you can find out if you're interested.
I'm not interested as it's of no importance
The alerts are of absolutely no significance
-
Perhaps you could put that remark into context with some actual figures - eg: how many times the FBI have used "cadaver" dogs in the last 10 years, and how many of those times they used Martin Grime.
Perhaps you could do it yourself, as you're the one who wants to know?
-
So it seems no one here knows much about grimes work with the fbi
-
I'm not interested as it's of no importance
The alerts are of absolutely no significance
Oh, I thought you were as you asked. Do you often ask questions you don't want to know the answer to? How strange.
I think we are supposed to be discussing Grime's career since PdL, not going over old ground. There's not much to say though, is there? Just that he seems to have run his company successfully for almost ten years.
-
So it seems no one here knows much about grimes work with the fbi
We know he's been associated with them for years.
-
Thursday, Aug. 7, 2014
http://www.kitsapgov.com/sheriff/mediareleases/2014/08-07%20Child%20death%20investigation%20update%201.pdf
(https://s28.postimg.org/7wiczvtal/martingrimefbi.jpg)
Child death investigation
East Bremerton, Wash. -- The Kitsap County Sheriff’s Office continues its
investigation into the suspicious death of Jenise Paulette Wright, age six, in East
Bremerton.
Jenise was reported missing by her family Sunday evening, Aug. 3, from her residence
in Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, located off of Old Military Road NE, in East
Bremerton.
Earlier today, search teams located the remains of a child. The body was found around
11:30 a.m., by special agents and professional staff of the FBI’s Evidence Research
Team, in a forested area in the vicinity of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park.
The body is now in the custody of the Kitsap County Coroner. We are awaiting
confirmation of the child’s identity by the coroner; however it appears that the body is
that of Jenise. Sheriff’s detectives expect that formal identification may occur tomorrow.
The family has been notified.
An autopsy will be conducted tomorrow by the county’s forensic pathologist. The
coroner will make a determination as to cause and manner of death.
Initial results of the autopsy will assist detectives in narrowing the investigation toward a
possible suspect.
The FBI’s Evidence Response Team has finished their processing of the scene where
the body was found. The Washington State Patrol’s Criminal Investigation Division is
forensically mapping that location.
This discovery is the result of the coordination of three things: valuable cooperation and
information provided by community, the pursuit of investigative leads and a thorough,
systematic search effort. At this time, there are no arrests in this case.
The assistance of the community is the most critical. The FBI’s national tip line, 1-800-
CALL-FBI, was activated on Monday for this case and remains open.
2
Kitsap County Sheriff Steve Boyer together with Special Agent Frank Montoya, Jr.,
Special Agent in Charge of the FBI Field Office, Seattle, wish to express the
appreciation of the residents of Steele Creek Mobile Home Park, the residents of East
Bremerton and the entire investigation team to the seven members of the FBI’s
Specialty Search Dogs Unit.
After receiving reports from volunteer search and rescue K-9 teams indicating a general
interest in a particular area, it was this team, with their K-9 partners, that located the
child’s body believed to be that of Jenise Wright.
(https://therinjfoundationfreeposters.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/the-rinj-foundation-jenise_paulette_wright.jpg)
I think it did help the search team when Jenise's underwear & shorts were found in the vicinity where her body was located, virtually submerged in boggy mud.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2754233/Teen-charged-murder-rape-girls-death.html
Bit off topic, but it appears Rex Stockham in the above photo has recently passed away.
http://www.fredericksburg.com/obituaries/rex-a-stockham/article_73d33ebd-fee7-5e04-b8dd-0196403ffba8.html
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Oh, I thought you were as you asked. Do you often ask questions you don't want to know the answer to? How strange.
I think we are supposed to be discussing Grime's career since PdL, not going over old ground. There's not much to say though, is there? Just that he seems to have run his company successfully for almost ten years.
dont need to just wanted to show you wouldnt be able to answer.....job done
you say successfully but you dont seem to have any details
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We know he's been associated with them for years.
but we dont know what hes done with them
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but we dont know what hes done with them
Lots of paid work, I imagine, that's what business is all about.
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Lots of paid work, I imagine, that's what business is all about.
thats not the reason he gave
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Perhaps you could do it yourself, as you're the one who wants to know?
erm, you're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to substantiate otherwise it's merely your opinion which adds nothing to the sum of our knowledge.
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erm, you're the one who made the claim, it's up to you to substantiate otherwise it's merely your opinion which adds nothing to the sum of our knowledge.
What claim?
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What claim?
That Martin Grime was regularly used by the FBI in preference to US dog teams.
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That Martin Grime was regularly used by the FBI in preference to US dog teams.
Well Martin Grime was used by the FBI, as well as many other police forces. It is clear that the FBI and those other police forces would have access to trained dog handlers and cadaver dogs much closer to home. They didn't however use them but preferred to use Martin Grime. Easy really. Now if there's anything else I can help you with?
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Well Martin Grime was used by the FBI, as well as many other police forces. It is clear that the FBI and those other police forces would have access to trained dog handlers and cadaver dogs much closer to home. They didn't however use them but preferred to use Martin Grime. Easy really. Now if there's anything else I can help you with?
Yes please - how many times have the FBI have used "cadaver" dogs in the last 10 years, and how many of those times have they used Martin Grime's service in preference to US teams?
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Yes please - how many times have the FBI have used "cadaver" dogs in the last 10 years, and how many of those times have they used Martin Grime's service in preference to US teams?
No idea but the fact that they use Martin Grime at all ( and were in 2014 as misty's link shows) speaks volumes about the esteem they hold his work in.
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No idea but the fact that they use Martin Grime at all ( and were in 2014 as misty's link shows) speaks volumes about the esteem they hold his work in.
Does it? I used supplier X two or three times last year and they were substandard each time (I gave them the benefit of the doubt until my patience ran out). I now use someone else. Does that mean therefore that simply because I used supplier X two or three times that they are a great supplier?
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Does it? I used supplier X two or three times last year and they were substandard each time (I gave them the benefit of the doubt until my patience ran out). I now use someone else. Does that mean therefore that simply because I used supplier X two or three times that they are a great supplier?
But it's not just the FBI is it but numerous police forces around the globe and do you really think the FBI, with its reputation, would continue to employ a canine operative if he didn't deliver results ?
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But it's not just the FBI is it but numerous police forces around the globe and do you really think the FBI, with its reputation, would continue to employ a canine operative if he didn't deliver results ?
I don't know - the supplier I no longer use continues to supply shoddy goods around the world so it's a possibility isn't it? Does the FBI continue to use Martin Grime on a regular basis? When was the last time he was used by them?
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I don't know - the supplier I no longer use continues to supply shoddy goods around the world so it's a possibility isn't it? Does the FBI continue to use Martin Grime on a regular basis? When was the last time he was used by them?
Well he was certainly working as a special agent for the FBI's Speciality Dog Unit at Quantico in 2014. Does that qualify as 'regular' enough ?
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Well he was certainly working as a special agent for the FBI's Speciality Dog Unit at Quantico in 2014. Does that qualify as 'regular' enough ?
I don't know - how long did he do that for, how regularly were he and his team utilized in 2014, is he still there, if not why not, etc.
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I don't know - how long did he do that for, how regularly were he and his team utilized in 2014, is he still there, if not why not, etc.
Give it up Alfie @)(++(*
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Well he was certainly working as a special agent for the FBI's Speciality Dog Unit at Quantico in 2014. Does that qualify as 'regular' enough ?
That could be three years ago.
Is that regular working?
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Give it up Alfie @)(++(*
So you don't know then, OK.
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That could be three years ago.
Is that regular working?
It's not necessary to have knowledge of every job done by Grime in the last ten years. We know he has done enough to keep himself and to keep his company solvent. We know that he has worked with English and Scottish Police Forces. We know he has travelled to the US to work for the FBI, so he is a nationally and internationally known and valued operative. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that he is incompetent.
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From the photo posted Grime is in the background and is part of a team
Not head and shoulders above anyone
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Mr Grime set up a company in June 2009 thus far [FY ended 31st Dec 2015] the company has not returned a trading loss. Something like £135k has been carried from the P & L to the shareholders.
What we don't know is how GSSI Ltd pay Mr Grime but that doesn't really matter in the general scheme of the thread title.
So hardly an ignominious failure.
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Can we gauge Grime's competency as a canine handler by his work after PdL?
This is what the enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne enquiry had to say about Grime's contribution at Haut de la Garenne:
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
DCO HARPER.
3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
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Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
matter further.
3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
investigation.
3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
not justified’.
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Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
Conclusion
3.10.18 There are two significant issues in relation to the search of Haut de la
Garenne. Firstly, whether the search was justified and secondly,
whether CO POWER supervised the decision-making process, given
the significance of the search and what it implied about Operation
Rectangle.
3.1019 Operation Haven concludes that the decision to dig at Haut de la
Garenne was questionable. DCO HARPER was not trained to an
acceptable level and, in the case of CO POWER, we note his own
admission that he had no current training ‘in the oversight of such
investigations’. Nevertheless, this Inquiry can conceive why, in all
circumstances, it may have been considered reasonable to do so.
We do not raise formal criticism of DCO HARPER or CO POWER for
their decision to do so. We do point out however, that the decision to
search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media
speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been
predicted and carefully planned for.
3.10.20 The decision to search Haut de la Garenne and the far reaching
consequences for Jersey, its people and its reputation, should have
been foreseen. More thought and objectivity should have been
applied to the decision-making process and managing the aftermath.
We have found no evidence that CO POWER applied his mind
properly or at all to the implications of the search prior to its
commencement. This Inquiry is left with the impression that
CO POWER’s passive acceptance of the opinion of the SIO was
exacerbated by his own lack of experience.
I guess it was outside their remit to research the true provenance of the 'enhanced' status of Grime's cadaver dog.
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Can we gauge Grime's competency as a canine handler by his work after PdL?
This is what the enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne enquiry had to say about Grime's contribution at Haut de la Garenne:
I guess it was outside their remit to research the true provenance of the 'enhanced' status of Grime's cadaver dog.
The article you have posted says that the excavations at HDG
Which ere prompted by the dog alerts
Were unjustified
Another vote for the unreliability of the alerts
Gerry was absolutely right
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This thread is under reconstruction.
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This thread is under reconstruction.
Let's hope that Mr Grime has been in touch !