UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on December 17, 2016, 07:33:51 AM
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Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared
SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today.
I is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.
He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
There doesn't seem to be any files available in the released files that confirm this.
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
There doesn't seem to be any files available in the released files that confirm this.
If it happened and there is much doubt about that, would people passing by even hear any crying from Madeleines bedroom in 5A?
No-one goes near Madeleines bedroom
Madeleines bedroom is at the front of the apartment, the window was closed and shutters down ... and no-one at all passes by that
The distance to the back is via the hall / siiting room, then patio, then small garden on to the pathway/alleyway and it is all raised more or less a floor above ground level. The sound had to carry around the corner, then the bedroom door was very near closed. Same with the patio doors. The sound would be very much reduced by that stage. Then it had cross the patio and drop down over the garden to the alleyway / Pathway.
More or less the same situation with anyone walking up the street at the side.
I have been thinking back to when I lived next door to young children. I feel sure they must have cried at times but in the winter with windows closed, I never heard them.
Did someone hear crying or is it another myth? Disinformation dropped out in an effort to try and make the Mccanns look bad
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If it happened and there is much doubt about that, would people passing by even hear any crying from Madeleines bedroom in 5A?
No-one goes near Madeleines bedroom
Madeleines bedroom is at the front of the apartment, the window was closed and shutters down ... and no-one at all passes by that
The distance to the back is via the hall / siiting room, then patio, then small garden on to the pathway/alleyway and it is all raised more or less a floor above ground level. The sound had to carry around the corner, then the bedroom door was very near closed. Same with the patio doors. The sound would be very much reduced by that stage. Then it had cross the patio and drop down over the garden to the alleyway / Pathway.
More or less the same situation with anyone walking up the street at the side.
I have been thinking back to when I lived next door to young children. I feel sure they must have cried at times but in the winter with windows closed, I never heard them.
Did someone hear crying or is it another myth? Disinformation dropped out in an effort to try and make the Mccanns look bad
Some of the Tapas 9 confirm they did what was called auditory checks, so that does imply someone thought it was possible for people to hear crying kids from the exterior. Mrs Fenn heard crying from the floor above and Madeleine was said by her parents to have a particularly loud cry.
It became known that the McCanns were leaving their kids in a vulnerable apartment (Bridget writes about it in her article). If she knew it who else knew about it?
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If it happened and there is much doubt about that, would people passing by even hear any crying from Madeleines bedroom in 5A?
No-one goes near Madeleines bedroom
Madeleines bedroom is at the front of the apartment, the window was closed and shutters down ... and no-one at all passes by that
The distance to the back is via the hall / siiting room, then patio, then small garden on to the pathway/alleyway and it is all raised more or less a floor above ground level. The sound had to carry around the corner, then the bedroom door was very near closed. Same with the patio doors. The sound would be very much reduced by that stage. Then it had cross the patio and drop down over the garden to the alleyway / Pathway.
More or less the same situation with anyone walking up the street at the side.
I have been thinking back to when I lived next door to young children. I feel sure they must have cried at times but in the winter with windows closed, I never heard them.
Did someone hear crying or is it another myth? Disinformation dropped out in an effort to try and make the Mccanns look bad
So you think people wouldn't have heard Maddy?
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So you think people wouldn't have heard Maddy?
There would be some hearing impaired about.
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There would be some hearing impaired about.
Sadie appeared to imply no one would.
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Some of the Tapas 9 confirm they did what was called auditory checks, so that does imply someone thought it was possible for people to hear crying kids from the exterior. Mrs Fenn heard crying from the floor above and Madeleine was said by her parents to have a particularly loud cry.
It became known that the McCanns were leaving their kids in a vulnerable apartment (Bridget writes about it in her article). If she knew it who else knew about it?
Unless Madeleine was out on the patio crying, I doubt anyone who just happened to be passing would even know which apartment any crying was emanating from or how long it had been going on. Then you have the 2 residents who apparently witnessed this unknown couple entering & comforting a child (which means that they must have conversed at some stage or all four heard the crying) yet not one of them mentioned anything to the police about it for years, preferring to let Luz's reputation remain tarnished.
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Unless Madeleine was out on the patio crying, I doubt anyone who just happened to be passing would even know which apartment any crying was emanating from or how long it had been going on. Then you have the 2 residents who apparently witnessed this unknown couple entering & comforting a child (which means that they must have conversed at some stage or all four heard the crying) yet not one of them mentioned anything to the police about it for years, preferring to let Luz's reputation remain tarnished.
Wasn't that simply a newspaper article?
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Wasn't that simply a newspaper article?
Whether you are right or wrong, this tale struck me as something that had been cobbled together out of very little.
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Wasn't that simply a newspaper article?
It may well have been a fabricated story but from where did it originate?
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Some of the Tapas 9 confirm they did what was called auditory checks, so that does imply someone thought it was possible for people to hear crying kids from the exterior. Mrs Fenn heard crying from the floor above and Madeleine was said by her parents to have a particularly loud cry.
It became known that the McCanns were leaving their kids in a vulnerable apartment (Bridget writes about it in her article). If she knew it who else knew about it?
Yes, but they were putting their ear against the window of the childrens bedroom.
The Mccann apartment was at the dead end of the passageway and nobody would walk past Madeleines window, unless they were up to no good. Nobody would walk past the hallway approx half way along that walkway that everyone had to use. Everybodies apartment, apart from the Mccanns, radiated off that hallway ... even the upstairs apartments
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Yes, but they were putting their ear against the window of the childrens bedroom.
The Mccann apartment was at the dead end of the passageway and nobody would walk past Madeleines window, unless they were up to no good. Nobody would walk past the hallway approx half way along that walkway that everyone had to use. Everybody's apartment, apart from the Mccanns, radiated off that hallway ... even the upstairs apartments
That's right it would have to be a couple of concerned local citizens who did this and no doubt they were IMO.
"Everybody's apartment, apart from the Mccanns, radiated off that hallway ... even the upstairs apartments" I doubt if that is right. AFAIK the path led to the gardens and they were only for the ground floor apartments, and general access to the carpark.
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Unless Madeleine was out on the patio crying, I doubt anyone who just happened to be passing would even know which apartment any crying was emanating from or how long it had been going on. Then you have the 2 residents who apparently witnessed this unknown couple entering & comforting a child (which means that they must have conversed at some stage or all four heard the crying) yet not one of them mentioned anything to the police about it for years, preferring to let Luz's reputation remain tarnished.
Was that right? "yet not one of them mentioned anything to the police about it for years" I didn't check that so no wonder there isn't a statement about it. I just hope SY followed this lead up.
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That's right it would have to be a couple of concerned local citizens who did this and no doubt they were IMO.
"Everybody's apartment, apart from the Mccanns, radiated off that hallway ... even the upstairs apartments" I doubt if that is right. AFAIK the path led to the gardens and they were only for the ground floor apartments, and general access to the carpark.
You are talking about a different pathway Rob. You are talking about the alleyway to the south of block 5. That led to the individual gardens and rear of the ground floor apartments ... but the pathway that I was talking about was on the other side of the block.
The pathway I was talking about is the one up close to the front of block 5 buiilding (i.e. to the NORTH of the building, within block 5 car park) . This pathway started at the middle of block 5 and was walled. Roughly half way along there was a fairly spacious, well lit hallway with the stairs to other floors coming from it ... along with many of the front doors to the ground floor flats.
Nobody had reason to walk further along this pathway other than the Mccanns. The pathway stopped at the front door to 5A. The front door not only was recessed and VERY dark but also quite isolated. No-one could see it from their walk across the car park or from their walk along the walled pathway.
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You are talking about a different pathway Rob. You are talking about the alleyway to the south of block 5. That led to the individual gardens and rear of the ground floor apartments ... but the pathway that I was talking about was on the other side of the block.
The pathway I was talking about is the one up close to the front of block 5 buiilding (i.e. to the NORTH of the building, within block 5 car park) . This pathway started at the middle of block 5 and was walled. Roughly half way along there was a fairly spacious, well lit hallway with the stairs to other floors coming from it ... along with many of the front doors to the ground floor flats.
Nobody had reason to walk further along this pathway other than the Mccanns. The pathway stopped at the front door to 5A. The front door not only was recessed and VERY dark but also quite isolated. No-one could see it from their walk across the car park or from their walk along the walled pathway.
OK and you have walked along this pathway Sadie?
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OK and you have walked along this pathway Sadie?
Yep, I walked it but I didn't touch the front door, the window or the shutters. I was very surprised to see how recessed the front door was.
Neither did I enter into the hallway half way along, but I looked.
Unfortunately when I first went, I hadn't thought about the possible likelyhood of the balcony opposite, across the road in block 6, being used as a look out spot by the possible 'director of operations' / getaway driver. Or I might have been cheeky enough to go up there and check exactly what could been seen from the balconies on the first and second floor. G.E. fills in the spots tho, but there is nothing better than trying it yourself.
I do know from GE that there was a direct line of vision from the balconies to someone standing in front of 5A, or standing amongst the trees at the eastern end of the block 5 car park. It would have been straight forward to signal from a watcher on block 6 balcony to a man in front of 5A. A pencil torch or even a cigareltte lighter flicking on, would do the job.
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Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared
SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today.
I is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation.
It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
She was so concerned she rang a friend in the village to ask what to do and considered ringing Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria.
At the time, Madeleine’s mother Kate and father Gerry were dining with friends at a tapas bar some 50 yards from the apartment.
A source said: “Police were astonished when this new information came to light. Officers spoke to other key witnesses to discover more about the middle-aged couple.
“Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Pamela Fenn has since died, so police have been speaking to other people who were staying in the same apartments.
Our revelation comes as Scotland Yard detectives say there are potentially 20 suspects they want to speak to. Retiring Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of the Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command, urged Portuguese authorities to investigate the new leads.
He said: “There are a lot of people of interest. There are people who could be properly explored further, if only to be eliminated.”
Scotland Yard officers have been interviewing witnesses here for months, although the public prosecutor in Portugal has decided against reopening the investigation.
Despite claims of a “Mexican stand off” between Portuguese police and Yard officers, the Sunday Express understands there is in fact very good co-operation between both squads.
Pedro de Carmo, deputy national leader of the PJ, said yesterday: “We still co-operate with their team. There are good communications.”
Portuguese officers are very impressed with the diligence of the Met investigation and have been impressed with their interviews with witnesses in Britain.
We can confirm that a couple staying in the same block as apartment 5a were interviewed last February.
They were in their apartment on the night Madeleine vanished. Afterwards they wrote an account of what they saw but were never formally interviewed by Portuguese detectives.
They had been at a restaurant earlier in the evening and left at about 9pm.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
There doesn't seem to be any files available in the released files that confirm this.
I can understand why some people are extremely uncomfortabke about this story because if true is pretty damning stuff given Mrs Fenn's recollection of the extended crying on the Tuesday night as well.
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I saw an estimate of the percentage of the file released to the general public - 18%. No wonder we are struggling to piece the parts together.
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If that figure is anywhere near the truth, then the PJ were far more active than certain people give them credit for.
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I saw an estimate of the percentage of the file released to the general public - 18%. No wonder we are struggling to piece the parts together.
Impossible Rob. We know what files there were since their references are recorded in the released CD. Very few are missing.
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Impossible Rob. We know what files there were since their references are recorded in the released CD. Very few are missing.
Seconded.
8((()*/
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Impossible Rob. We know what files there were since their references are recorded in the released CD. Very few are missing.
Well it surprised me to "OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
ANOMALIES IN THE CASE FILE : THE CRECHE
Sitemap
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH SITE BY ANNAESSE
Please note: This page is not part of the official police files. It is an analysis of Anomalies in the Creche files, that can be seen here LINK
Sign-in/check-in Warner/Creche lists
The McCann case: anomalies in the case file
Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context."
So I have no idea how they worked out that percentage.
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Well it surprised me to "OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
ANOMALIES IN THE CASE FILE : THE CRECHE
Sitemap
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH SITE BY ANNAESSE
Please note: This page is not part of the official police files. It is an analysis of Anomalies in the Creche files, that can be seen here LINK
Sign-in/check-in Warner/Creche lists
The McCann case: anomalies in the case file
Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context."
So I have no idea how they worked out that percentage.
Either provide a cite or a link for this or watch it disappear.
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Here's the link, Shining. It's amazing the amount of non-official material uploaded using the official header.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE_ANOMALIES.htm
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Here's the link, Shining. It's amazing the amount of non-official material uploaded using the official header.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE_ANOMALIES.htm
Than you for the link.
Having read this, my bet is that the material will still fall foul of moderation.
Here's the bit I object to "You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work."
Our team - unidentified.
The association - unidentified.
Professionals from the police - unidentified.
This looks like a cut and paste from CMoMM. Do you know if it is?
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Than you for the link.
Having read this, my bet is that the material will still fall foul of moderation.
Here's the bit I object to "You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work."
Our team - unidentified.
The association - unidentified.
Professionals from the police - unidentified.
This looks like a cut and paste from CMoMM. Do you know if it is?
Here's a link to the same transcript with some familiar names ( I realise we're not supposed to link to other forums but you can read it & then delete).
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?69317-Madeleine-McCann-General-Discussion-Thread-No-25/page36
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Than you for the link.
Having read this, my bet is that the material will still fall foul of moderation.
Here's the bit I object to "You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work."
Our team - unidentified.
The association - unidentified.
Professionals from the police - unidentified.
This looks like a cut and paste from CMoMM. Do you know if it is?
I only quoted it because it had an incredible low estimate of percentage of the file released.
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Here's a link to the same transcript with some familiar names ( I realise we're not supposed to link to other forums but you can read it & then delete).
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?69317-Madeleine-McCann-General-Discussion-Thread-No-25/page36
This leads us back up the food chain a bit. The material quoted is lifted from Joana Morais no later than 22 Nov 2008, when it was posted on Websleuths.
But unless I'm mistaken, Joana has translated or copied a version from Enfants Kdnappés, a Belgian website which is no longer in existence. That would mean the team, the association, and these mysterious police officers are probably Belgian, unless someone knows better.
I now have another issue. The PJ Files were released on 4 Aug 2008. I have no idea when a Portuguese version was first loaded onto the Internet. But there is, IMO, a very short time to get material translated from Portuguese to any other language, such as English, French or Flemish, and come to any sensible assessment by 22 Nov 2008. It simply isn't possible.
I don't know where 17% got plucked from. We know that certain sections were not released, as documented by Pamalam. But I very much doubt there is anything like 17% censored, let alone 83%.
Thanks for the info Misty.
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This leads us back up the food chain a bit. The material quoted is lifted from Joana Morais no later than 22 Nov 2008, when it was posted on Websleuths.
But unless I'm mistaken, Joana has translated or copied a version from Enfants Kdnappés, a Belgian website which is no longer in existence. That would mean the team, the association, and these mysterious police officers are probably Belgian, unless someone knows better.
I now have another issue. The PJ Files were released on 4 Aug 2008. I have no idea when a Portuguese version was first loaded onto the Internet. But there is, IMO, a very short time to get material translated from Portuguese to any other language, such as English, French or Flemish, and come to any sensible assessment by 22 Nov 2008. It simply isn't possible.
I don't know where 17% got plucked from. We know that certain sections were not released, as documented by Pamalam. But I very much doubt there is anything like 17% censored, let alone 83%.
Thanks for the info Misty.
Here's a link to the original article on Enfants Kidnappes (I think it's the right one) but there is no reference to the percentage of files uploaded onto the internet.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081219220642/http://www.kidnapping.be/maddie/maddie.html
SOS Madeleine was Levy. I have several times asked the question - who paid to get the files translated so quickly & for what purpose? I know what I think......
I do think we have less than 20% of the files, though. Didn't SY make reference to some 80000 pages?
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Than you for the link.
Having read this, my bet is that the material will still fall foul of moderation.
Here's the bit I object to "You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work."
Our team - unidentified.
The association - unidentified.
Professionals from the police - unidentified.
This looks like a cut and paste from CMoMM. Do you know if it is?
What I particulrly notice is that
The couple who are supposed to have heard crying and gone in to 5A - unidentified
The couple who it seems talked to then - unidentified
Did Mrs Fenn comment about crying that night - No
.... So it cant have been much, it cant have been loud.
How come a couple walking past heard it if Mrs Fenn didn't? ....and it was loud enough to cause concern enough to go into the apartment .... That'a a big thing to do, going into a strangers home at night.. Most people wouldn't
Did it really happen that a couple went in there .... or is it another myth?
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What I particulrly notice is that
The couple who are supposed to have heard crying and gone in to 5A - unidentified
The couple who it seems talked to then - unidentified
Did Mrs Fenn comment about crying that night - No
.... So it cant have been much, it cant have been loud.
How come a couple walking past heard it if Mrs Fenn didn't? ....and it was loud enough to cause concern enough to go into the apartment .... That'a a big thing to do, going into a strangers home at night.. Most people wouldn't
Did it really happen that a couple went in there .... or is it another myth?
I think that was the question of the thread????
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I think that was the question of the thread????
You've got it in one, Slarti
So we have
- an unamed couple supposedly going into 5A
- another unamed couple who were aware of it
- no record of Mrs Fenn hearing any crying that night, so it cant have been loud
- No one passes anywhere near Madeleines and the twins bedroom (which had its window closed and shutters down) so no-one would have heard anything from the front of the apartment. Nobody would have heard anything from the street side either, or the alleyway at the back, IMO because both are too remote and sound had to travel round several corners to reach those spots.
- Had anyone heard anything, which I very much doubt, it would not have been sufficient for a couple of strangers to take it upon themselves to enter another families apartment to go see.
I strongly propose that the unamed couple who were supposed to have gone in, supposedly witnessed by other unamed people is just another MYTH designed to beat the The Mccanns up again
... and to make out that the children were VERY distraught. That is not true, Mrs Fenn didn't hear them, did she ?
I propose that the tale about a couple going in because of the crying is a load of BS (excuse me!)
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What I particulrly notice is that
The couple who are supposed to have heard crying and gone in to 5A - unidentified
The couple who it seems talked to then - unidentified
Did Mrs Fenn comment about crying that night - No
.... So it cant have been much, it cant have been loud.
How come a couple walking past heard it if Mrs Fenn didn't? ....and it was loud enough to cause concern enough to go into the apartment .... That'a a big thing to do, going into a strangers home at night.. Most people wouldn't
Did it really happen that a couple went in there .... or is it another myth?
According to Madeleine it sounds like it.
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According to Madeleine it sounds like it.
According to Madeleine the twins were crying, but it cant have been loud or gone on for long because Mrs Fenn would have commented.
I just do not believe it was heard outside.
At the back and street ... too far away with too many corners for the sound to go around
At the front, nobody walked anywhere near the closed window and shutters
Anyway why are the couple unamed ?
Then there are the people who knew about the couple supposedly entering 5A. Why are they also unamed?
I dont believe anyone went in
It is just another stick to beat the Mccanns with .... and to try to help convict them with ? Another myth. imo.
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According to Madeleine the twins were crying, but it cant have been loud or gone on for long because Mrs Fenn would have commented.
I just do not believe it was heard outside.
At the back and street ... too far away with too many corners for the sound to go around
At the front, nobody walked anywhere near the closed window and shutters
Anyway why are the couple unamed ?
Then there are the people who knew about the couple supposedly entering 5A. Why are they also unamed?
I dont believe anyone went in
It is just another stick to beat the Mccanns with .... and to try to help convict them with ? Another myth. imo.
So true - why are they unnamed? If they were named would they become the target of abuse? They would have to be prime suspects wouldn't they.