Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 09:33:15 AM
Title: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 09:33:15 AM
Stating that no evidential reliability can be attached to the dog alerts is professional jargon for we can't prove it one way or another.
785
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 09:57:35 AM
The alert even if correct does not confirm a death in the apartment And we don't know if the alert was genuine
Fact: If Madeleine died in 5a for whatever reason her body didn't lie there long enough for cadaver odour to form.
However, what some people fail to acknowledge is that if Eddie did detect cadaver odour in 5a there are several reasons both innocent and not so innocent how that could be. Cadaver odour does not wash off readily, everything it touches becomes contaminated.
If cadaver odour was found in 5a then the only reason it could have got there is by secondary transfer. In such a situation therefore there is every possibility that it could relate to Madeleine given one particular theory. The further alerts to clothing owned by the McCann's would support this explanation.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 05:48:24 PM
Fact: If Madeleine died in 5a for whatever reason her body didn't lie there long enough for cadaver odour to form.
However, what some people fail to acknowledge is that if Eddie did detect cadaver odour in 5a there are several reasons both innocent and not so innocent how that could be. Cadaver odour does not wash off readily, everything it touches becomes contaminated.
If cadaver odour was found in 5a then the only reason it could have got there is by secondary transfer. In such a situation therefore there is every possibility that it could relate to Madeleine given one particular theory. The further alerts to clothing owned by the McCann's would support this explanation.
I fail to understand the logic of that. Somehow the clothing is contaminated on the night of the 3rd already. How did it get contaminated if Madeleine was seen alive at 9:00 and found missing at 10:00?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 08, 2017, 06:01:35 PM
Fact: If Madeleine died in 5a for whatever reason her body didn't lie there long enough for cadaver odour to form.
However, what some people fail to acknowledge is that if Eddie did detect cadaver odour in 5a there are several reasons both innocent and not so innocent how that could be. Cadaver odour does not wash off readily, everything it touches becomes contaminated.
If cadaver odour was found in 5a then the only reason it could have got there is by secondary transfer. In such a situation therefore there is every possibility that it could relate to Madeleine given one particular theory. The further alerts to clothing owned by the McCann's would support this explanation.
Further alerts to clothing?
What, you mean the clothing Eddie could find no hint of a scent on when he inspected it in the villa, yet (apparently!) could when the same clothing was transported in bog-standard cardboard box to the gym?
That clothing?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 08, 2017, 06:05:48 PM
Fact: If Madeleine died in 5a for whatever reason her body didn't lie there long enough for cadaver odour to form.
However, what some people fail to acknowledge is that if Eddie did detect cadaver odour in 5a there are several reasons both innocent and not so innocent how that could be. Cadaver odour does not wash off readily, everything it touches becomes contaminated.
If cadaver odour was found in 5a then the only reason it could have got there is by secondary transfer. In such a situation therefore there is every possibility that it could relate to Madeleine given one particular theory. The further alerts to clothing owned by the McCann's would support this explanation.
The flaw in your reasoning is we don't know that Eddie did alert to cadaver odour
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 06:09:34 PM
I fail to understand the logic of that. Somehow the clothing is contaminated on the night of the 3rd already. How did it get contaminated if Madeleine was seen alive at 9:00 and found missing at 10:00?
Its not hard to work out Robbie. Was the contaminant carried back to 5a after the 3rd?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 06:24:05 PM
The flaw in your reasoning is we don't know that Eddie did alert to cadaver odour
No but that's what he was trained to find and has done so successfully on many prior occasions. The logic by default is that he did in fact find cadaver odour. His trainer certainly believes so.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 06:27:42 PM
What, you mean the clothing Eddie could find no hint of a scent on when he inspected it in the villa, yet (apparently!) could when the same clothing was transported in bog-standard cardboard box to the gym?
That clothing?
There were several reasons for this apparent inconsistency. I don't recall the same clothing being laid out in the villa search.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2017, 06:29:34 PM
There were several reasons for this apparent inconsistency. I don't recall the same clothing being laid out in the villa search.
Quote
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 06:37:42 PM
Could very well have been or anyone else who had contact with a deceased person or their clothing. This constant insistence that cadaver odour couldn't have been found in 5a is a nonsense because there is every possibility it was.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 06:44:43 PM
When then? For I agree with part of that. In my theory a cadaver was brought in and out of the apartment without Kate's knowledge. But in the theory you propose, I assume it is different than that, so how does that theory go?
There was no cadaver in 5a but scent from a cadaver could have been left there by direct transfer from clothing or other possessions. Must dash.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 08, 2017, 06:48:20 PM
OK I wonder who would have done that? Cadaver odour doesn't have a name remember.
Eddie could (apparently!) detect an odor on exactly the same clothing in the gym he could find no trace of an odor on (identical clothing) in the villa.
All the items Eddie (apparently) reacted to were transported in the same, bog-standard cardboard box, from the villa to the gym.
As Grime himself confirmed, cross-contamination of a death scent is instant.
So all the items in that cardboard box ought to have had death-scent cross-transferred to them during transport to the gym.
So, even ignoring that picking stuff up in his mouth is an untrained response from the dog, if any items in that box had death scent (none did) all should have been contaminated by cross-transfer.
Not for nothing was Grime questioned, in his rogatory interview, about cross-transfer of death scent.
Grime confirmed cross-transfer is instant.
It is ....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 08, 2017, 07:03:21 PM
You are forgetting that Madeleine's physical whereabouts has no relevance to cadaver odour being found in 5a, in the hire car or on possessions.
You could have a living Madeleine and still have "cadaver odour being found in 5a, in the hire car or on possessions".
That will be the true significance of Eddie's alerts if Madeleine is discovered alive. We will then be facing the question to what did Eddie alert to "in 5a, in the hire car or on possessions". So after the discovery of Madeleine we may still be faced with the mystery.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 09, 2017, 05:33:20 PM
Cite for that claim please "noted by a PJ officer"?
Quote
'Eddie, the dog with an advanced training to detect mortal victims (E.V.R.D.), searches and locates human remains and body fluids, including blood, in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was done with human blood and decaying piglets that were born dead. The importance of this training is that the dog learnt to identify the odour of a decaying body that is not food. This guaranties that the dog ignores the 'bacon sandwich' and the 'kebab', etc. that are always present in the environment. Besides that the dog will not alert to a meal prepared at home or on any other place. For instance, the dog will be efficient on searching a cadaver in café where the clients can be seated eating a bacon sandwich. As a complement of this training, the dog receives an additional training in the USA, in association with the FBI, in which will be used exclusively human remains' (sic) (page 2493 and 2494).
This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'
These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.
It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.
In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:26:54 PM
I see your original statement was a misquote, what is written is "until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times"
The dog runs around passes and returns, moves about and then signals. That is how it is and nothing more. I don't think that means the dog is forced to make an alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 09, 2017, 08:39:38 PM
I see your original statement was a misquote, what is written is "until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times"
The dog runs around passes and returns, moves about and then signals. That is how it is and nothing more. I don't think that means the dog is forced to make an alert.
Which original statement?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:45:22 PM
Sorry it was Davel who said "until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times" and "What you don't see is how many times Eddie completely ignored places he later alerted to after being continually led back" and you agreed.
The dog is not "continually led back".
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 09, 2017, 08:50:59 PM
Sorry it was Davel who said "until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times" and "What you don't see is how many times Eddie completely ignored places he later alerted to after being continually led back" and you agreed.
The dog is not "continually led back".
Yes he is, continually or repeatedly led back, especially to the Renault Scenic.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 09, 2017, 08:54:13 PM
Yes he is, continually or repeatedly led back, especially to the Renault Scenic.
I'm not sure about that sorry, so I can't comment.
I could imagine Martin making sure that Eddie had checked a few specific places on the car e.g. the bottom sill of the door. If you are saying Eddie was repeated taken and checked the bottom sill before alerting then I'd have to look at those videos again if they are still around.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 09, 2017, 11:40:32 PM
https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=3653 @ 1:00:52 - 54 is the man specifically handling Sean's top prior to Eddie alerting to it. That could be the point where that item is contaminated with cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 10, 2017, 12:20:51 AM
https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=3653 @ 1:00:52 - 54 is the man specifically handling Sean's top prior to Eddie alerting to it. That could be the point where that item is contaminated with cadaver odour.
You'll get points for suggesting the PJ contaminated the clothing. %£&)**#
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 12:25:38 AM
You'll get points for suggesting the PJ contaminated the clothing. %£&)**#
I'm not suggesting that. The police are allowed to use ruses to try and get suspects to confess. So ruse tactics are not illegal or defamatory in any form or fashion but standard policing procedure. I just find it odd that the last item handled is the first item alerted to by Eddie.
There would be no logical reason Sean's "up up and away" top should ever get contaminated with cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 08:16:27 AM
Martin has a bit of trouble to get Eddie away from just sniffing the air to actually focusing on the Renault Scenic. There could be a degree of dog handler focusing involved, but its not excessive. https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=4872 But once Eddie had learned where to look he checks the other vehicles a lot quicker.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 09:36:18 AM
Personally I think he has amazing control over his dogs. They are very energetic but they are still responding to his verbal commands.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2017, 10:13:55 AM
Martin has a bit of trouble to get Eddie away from just sniffing the air to actually focusing on the Renault Scenic. There could be a degree of dog handler focusing involved, but its not excessive. https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=4872 But once Eddie had learned where to look he checks the other vehicles a lot quicker.
IIRC the video shows that the other cars were inspected before the Renault.
A time of 30 seconds or less was spent on the other cars before Eddie was allowed to move on. In one case the dog doesn't even complete a full circuit of the car before moving onto the next one.
No alerts were made during that time (30 secs) and no alerts were made to the Renault during the first 30 seconds either. If after 30 seconds Eddie had then been allowed to move on from the Renault as he was with the other cars - then the outcome would have been no alerts to any cars.
The difference is that Eddie was repeatedly called back to the Renault - and it was 2 minutes before he alerted.
My argument has always been that if Eddie had been made to inspect the other cars for the same amount of time i.e.2 mins - it is highly likely that other alerts could have been made. Eddie could detect residual odours from material deposited decades ago. I find it hard to believe that not a single bit of alertable material had ever been deposited in any of those other cars since they were made - either before or after they left the factory.
However, this has all been discussed at great length before on this forum. The only reason I replied is because your post has not been removed as being off topic.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 10:31:00 AM
IIRC the video shows that the other cars were inspected before the Renault.
A time of 30 seconds or less was spent on the other cars before Eddie was allowed to move on. In one case the dog doesn't even complete a full circuit of the car before moving onto the next one.
No alerts were made during that time (30 secs) and no alerts were made to the Renault during the first 30 seconds either. If after 30 seconds Eddie had then been allowed to move on from the Renault as he was with the other cars - then the outcome would have been no alerts to any cars.
The difference is that Eddie was repeatedly called back to the Renault - and it was 2 minutes before he alerted.
My argument has always been that if Eddie had been made to inspect the other cars for the same amount of time i.e.2 mins - it is highly likely that other alerts could have been made. Eddie could detect residual odours from material deposited decades ago. I find it hard to believe that not a single bit of alertable material had ever been deposited in any of those other cars since they were made - either before or after they left the factory.
However, this has all been discussed at great length before on this forum. The only reason I replied is because your post has not been removed as being off topic.
AIMHO
'I observed several vehicles being checked by Eddie after the Renault check. Eddie wasn't mucking around as he was during the Renault check. It is impossible to be sure what is going on. So no real argument from me.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 10, 2017, 10:54:05 AM
'I observed several vehicles being checked by Eddie after the Renault check. Eddie wasn't mucking around as he was during the Renault check. It is impossible to be sure what is going on. So no real argument from me.
It must be remembered that dog and handler work as a team with the handler aware of changes in the dogs reactions which would probably be imperceptible to a casual observer.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 04:49:12 PM
I see Martin Grime waving his hand near objects he wants Eddie to check. I'd call that a conscious cuing IMO. I'd like to read about this unconscious cuing and how the dog picks up on that.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 05:15:01 PM
If Eddie would get a reward for alerting to a cue he would not have had such a great track record (unless Martin also could pick up on the cadaver odour too and covered for him).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 06:24:13 PM
If Eddie would get a reward for alerting to a cue he would not have had such a great track record (unless Martin also could pick up on the cadaver odour too and covered for him).
Could you tell us what you think Eddie track record is
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2017, 06:27:24 PM
In my opinion there is nothing remotely libellous or dangerous in recognising dogs can be influenced by their handlers without the handlers being remotely aware of it. It is a fact.
Neither is it remotely libellous or dangerous to acknowledge that handlers can influence their dogs' reaction for a variety of reasons. That too is a fact.
Martin Grime may have fallen victim to the first; he wouldn't know he had unless under test conditions. Suggesting he was guilty of the second is a different matter entirely and legitimate signals to the dog for closer investigation of an area don't come close.
The nature of the work and interpretation of the dogs' responses require checks and balances. For example in the USA where Martin Grime and his dogs worked subsequently those checks and balances are maintained by proven training standards and more than one dog. Essential, in my opinion, when the end product is not finding the actual substance but the essence it leaves behind.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 10, 2017, 06:41:05 PM
In my opinion there is nothing remotely libellous or dangerous in recognising dogs can be influenced by their handlers without the handlers being remotely aware of it. It is a fact.
Neither is it remotely libellous or dangerous to acknowledge that handlers can influence their dogs' reaction for a variety of reasons. That too is a fact.
Martin Grime may have fallen victim to the first; he wouldn't know he had unless under test conditions. Suggesting he was guilty of the second is a different matter entirely and legitimate signals to the dog for closer investigation of an area don't come close.
The nature of the work and interpretation of the dogs' responses require checks and balances. For example in the USA where Martin Grime and his dogs worked subsequently those checks and balances are maintained by proven training standards and more than one dog. Essential, in my opinion, when the end product is not finding the actual substance but the essence it leaves behind.
Quote
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
(Martin Grime).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2017, 07:34:47 PM
Could you tell us what you think Eddie track record is
This is what I have read "False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in behaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search." It sounds pretty effective.
Martin is aware of cuing and the false positives that causes.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 10, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
This is what I have read "False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in behaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search." It sounds pretty effective.
This FOI answer suggests just 37 operational deployments in service for SYP.
It must be the way they count searches. A single criminal case may involve many searches. How many searches were involved in the McCann case. It might have been 20 just in that one case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2017, 07:58:41 PM
The reason Mccann supporters attack the dog alerts is simple.
They fear them.
That is also why Gerry McCann tried to bring into the court case in his last appearance, and that was an utter failure.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 07:58:59 PM
This is what I have read "False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in behaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search." It sounds pretty effective.
Martin is aware of cuing and the false positives that causes.
It is written in a very clumsy way In this context Grime is referring to alerting to meat or roadkill as a false positive I'm sure you will agree we just don't know the number of false positive that may have occurred in jersey and pdl
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
It was when the alerts were turned into evidence that it was wrong.
Yes as long as the sceptics mistakenly claim the alerts are some sort of evidence we will need to correct them
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2017, 08:29:58 PM
Not sure if you are aware rob but the dog videos are heavily edited According to a report by the PJ the dogs were repeatedly brought back to places they had originally ignored
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2017, 08:56:30 PM
..and remember , Gerry Mccann was so concerned by the dogs, that he tried bringing it to the court case in Portugal, and failed dismally.
Just remember what he said to Sandra
and we have the Mccann quote, that the 'dogs are incredibly unreliable'.
A total fabrication by Mccann.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 10, 2017, 09:50:15 PM
Not sure if you are aware rob but the dog videos are heavily edited According to a report by the PJ the dogs were repeatedly brought back to places they had originally ignored
That's quite correct.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2017, 10:25:27 PM
..and remember , Gerry Mccann was so concerned by the dogs, that he tried bringing it to the court case in Portugal, and failed dismally.
Just remember what he said to Sandra
and we have the Mccann quote, that the 'dogs are incredibly unreliable'.
A total fabrication by Mccann.
Yet again you have libelled Dr McCann by use of selective and curtailed quotes. Please desist.
Sandra: But this is the first time that you give us a big interview not being arguidos, not being arguidos. Since then. erm. So now I feel free to ask you this directly. How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate: Sandra, maybe you should ask the judiciary because they have examined all evidence. I mean we are also Madeleine's mum and dad and we are desperate for people to help us find Madeleine which is why we are here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and I am asking them if they will help us spread this message to that person or people...
Sandra: So you don't have an explanation for that?
Gerry: Ask the dogs Sandra.
Sandra: Ask the dogs? No Gerry. Now I feel free to ask you, don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry: I can tell you that we have also looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra: Unreliable?
Gerry: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically. http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078056/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2032
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2017, 10:31:49 PM
Yet again you have libelled Dr McCann by use of selective and curtailed quotes. Please desist.
Sandra: But this is the first time that you give us a big interview not being arguidos, not being arguidos. Since then. erm. So now I feel free to ask you this directly. How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate: Sandra, maybe you should ask the judiciary because they have examined all evidence. I mean we are also Madeleine's mum and dad and we are desperate for people to help us find Madeleine which is why we are here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and I am asking them if they will help us spread this message to that person or people...
Sandra: So you don't have an explanation for that?
Gerry: Ask the dogs Sandra.
Sandra: Ask the dogs? No Gerry. Now I feel free to ask you, don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry: I can tell you that we have also looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra: Unreliable?
Gerry: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically. http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078056/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2032
Rubbish.
You can hear it all on the video.
So where is this evidence that cadaver dogs are 'incredibly unreliable' ?
Do you believe everything the McCann's say Brietta ?
Meanwhile Grime was and remains an extremely competent dog handler.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 11, 2017, 09:13:03 AM
The dog alerts in an area, humans recover samples. Eddie alerted, humans recovered.
Except that we know from the (corrupted) account (PdL) of the inspection in the gym how these inspections are supposed to be conducted.
You get the dog to reconnoitre an area beforehand; then you introduce whatever you want the dog to examine, so that you can be sure that the area is free of pre-existing scents.
Thereby, you increase assurity that if the dog alerts, the alert is to what you have introduced, not to any extraneous scent.
And preferably without the dog trampling all over stuff it tasked to inspect, or picking it up in its mouth.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 09:15:23 AM
Except that we know from the (corrupted) account (PdL) of the inspection in the gym how these inspections are supposed to be conducted.
You get the dog to reconnoitre an area beforehand; then you introduce whatever you want the dog to examine, so that you can be sure that the area is free of pre-existing scents.
Then you introduce whatever you want the dog to inspect as part of the enquiry, and increase assurity that if the dog alerts, the alert is to what you have introduced, not to any extraneous scent.
And preferably without the dog trampling all over stuff it tasked to inspect, or picking it up in its mouth.
'corrupted' ?
You have ZERO experience in dog handling.
You merely have been googling and giving your totally biased impression.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 11, 2017, 09:16:56 AM
Except that we know from the (corrupted) account (PdL) of the inspection in the gym how these inspections are supposed to be conducted.
You get the dog to reconnoitre an area beforehand; then you introduce whatever you want the dog to examine, so that you can be sure that the area is free of pre-existing scents.
Thereby, you increase assurity that if the dog alerts, the alert is to what you have introduced, not to any extraneous scent.
And preferably without the dog trampling all over stuff it tasked to inspect, or picking it up in its mouth.
Absolute common sense You don't have to be a dog handler to understand that It's like doing a DNA test with dirty instruments
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
The point being, of course, that if the dogs are of no consequence, why go on, and on, and on....
.....on several different threads ? 8)-))) 8)--))
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 11, 2017, 04:45:23 PM
But if he was trained as you say " to alert to the odour of decaying flesh", why wouldn't we expect anything else at PDL?
Because of the fact he has never been independently tested no one knows how accurate he is Because according to the PJ he had to be led back several times to places he had not alerted to and eventually did alert to Because Grime was unable to even say it was his opinion that Eddie had alerted to cadaver odour
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 11, 2017, 05:13:06 PM
Because of the fact he has never been independently tested no one knows how accurate he is Because according to the PJ he had to be led back several times to places he had not alerted to and eventually did alert to Because Grime was unable to even say it was his opinion that Eddie had alerted to cadaver odour
Did Grime say he "was unable to even say it was his opinion that Eddie had alerted to cadaver odour" or are you just surmising that?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
Because of the fact he has never been independently tested no one knows how accurate he is Because according to the PJ he had to be led back several times to places he had not alerted to and eventually did alert to Because Grime was unable to even say it was his opinion that Eddie had alerted to cadaver odour
Does one actually know whether Eddie was independently tested? The only info I have seen was 'accredited to ACPO standards', but I am not an expert on the relevant ACPO standards.
I can see no reason why the dog is expected to act like a laser-guided missile and immediately home in on a source. Is there such a reason?
Is this post-Luz as per the thread title? Or are we simply mired in yet another dog thread?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 11, 2017, 05:46:36 PM
Does one actually know whether Eddie was independently tested? The only info I have seen was 'accredited to ACPO standards', but I am not an expert on the relevant ACPO standards.
I can see no reason why the dog is expected to act like a laser-guided missile and immediately home in on a source. Is there such a reason?
Is this post-Luz as per the thread title? Or are we simply mired in yet another dog thread?
Good points are being made in this thread, and I'd recommend it be allowed to continue please.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2017, 06:03:05 PM
Does one actually know whether Eddie was independently tested? The only info I have seen was 'accredited to ACPO standards', but I am not an expert on the relevant ACPO standards.
I can see no reason why the dog is expected to act like a laser-guided missile and immediately home in on a source. Is there such a reason?
Is this post-Luz as per the thread title? Or are we simply mired in yet another dog thread?
If the dog is trained to alert to cadaver then you would expect Ito alert to cadaver Not first time shown site ignore and then second time alert That proves a level of unreliability
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 04:12:03 AM
If the dogs are trained to alert to cadaver odours and the dog is seen to alert, we would be reasonably safe in saying there was a scent in the area similar to what the dog thought was cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 12, 2017, 06:07:43 AM
If the dog is trained to alert to cadaver then you would expect Ito alert to cadaver Not first time shown site ignore and then second time alert That proves a level of unreliability
Well obviously there was no physical cadaver but the residual odour from a cadaver that had been there some months before, and that cadaver may not have been deceased that long either so the odour was just beginning to become detectable. In other words it is a testament to the dog's amazing ability to detect minute traces of the odour. It may require more than one pass when the amount of cadaver odour molecules (whatever combination they are) is so low.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: faithlilly on January 12, 2017, 12:14:53 PM
Yet again you have libelled Dr McCann by use of selective and curtailed quotes. Please desist.
Sandra: But this is the first time that you give us a big interview not being arguidos, not being arguidos. Since then. erm. So now I feel free to ask you this directly. How can you explain the coincidence of the scent of cadaver found by British and not Portuguese dogs?
Kate: Sandra, maybe you should ask the judiciary because they have examined all evidence. I mean we are also Madeleine's mum and dad and we are desperate for people to help us find Madeleine which is why we are here today. The majority of people are inherently good and I believe the majority of people in Portugal are inherently good people and I am asking them if they will help us spread this message to that person or people...
Sandra: So you don't have an explanation for that?
Gerry: Ask the dogs Sandra.
Sandra: Ask the dogs? No Gerry. Now I feel free to ask you, don't you feel free to answer me?
Gerry: I can tell you that we have also looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.
Sandra: Unreliable?
Gerry: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically. http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078056/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2032
Interesting that within the link you posted there's mention of the judge's comments on the Zapata case, a case where the alerts of the dogs were found to be 100% correct.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 11:40:55 AM
The important point is that no evidence was found that Maddie died in the apartment That is an undeniable fact
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2017, 11:46:44 AM
I suggest you ask Angelo or John on that.
It's called circumstantial.
The fact that the forensic results neither affirmed or dismissed the dogs indications, does not mean the dogs didn't react to the presence of a body in the apartment.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2017, 12:23:27 PM
The fact that the forensic results neither affirmed or dismissed the dogs indications, does not mean the dogs didn't react to the presence of a body in the apartment.
Only one thing to say to that stephen.
The fact is that Keela had to have been shown the same places as Eddie alerted, to see if she alerted too, or NOT.
(i) If she alerted, then it meant that they were both pointing to the dessicated blood from a living person .. NO CADAVAR (ii) If she did not alert then it could have meant that as Eddie had alerted, there could have been cadavescent odour there, but that had to be forensically checked out.
She alerted to everything Eddie alerted to, meaning that they were both alerting to the dessicated blood of a living person, that is except for in one spot. That was the area in front of the wardrobe in the main bedroom.
There is a likely reason for the scent of cadavar odour there. The man who had lived there before, died in hospital. His personal possessions, including his pyjamas, would have been brought home.
Where would they have been stored in such a small place? The most likely place is within the wardrobe, or tucked away on the floor in front of the wardrobe.
The scent likely transferred from pyjamas to the area around. Transference of caderavine odour is very common and the scent stays for years.
Because of this ... and the fact that there was NO forensic evidence what so ever, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the odour came from a dead Madeleine. None, Nada, zilch.
Just wishful incorrect thinking on Amarals behalf. .... and likewise with some of you.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
The fact is that Keela had to have been shown the same places as Eddie alerted, to see if she alerted too, or NOT.
(i) If she alerted, then it meant that they were both pointing to the dessicated blood from a living person .. NO CADAVAR (ii) If she did not alert then it could have meant that as Eddie had alerted, there could have been cadavescent odour there, but that had to be forensically checked out.
She alerted to everything Eddie alerted to, meaning that they were both alerting to the dessicated blood of a living person, that is except for in one spot. That was the area in front of the wardrobe in the main bedroom.
There is a likely reason for the scent of cadavar odour there. The man who had lived there before, died in hospital. His personal possessions, including his pyjamas, would have been brought home.
Where would they have been stored in such a small place? The most likely place is within the wardrobe, or tucked away on the floor in front of the wardrobe.
The scent likely transferred from pyjamas to the area around. Transference of caderavine odour is very common and the scent stays for years.
Because of this ... and the fact that there was NO forensic evidence what so ever, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the odour came from a dead Madeleine. None, Nada, zilch.
Just wishful incorrect thinking on Amarals behalf. .... and likewise with some of you.
The absense of corroborating evidence, does not mean the dogs incorrectly alerted Sadie.
This is why you and others return to this, again and again.
Dogs don't lie, and they have no agenda.
Neither did Grime.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
The fact that the forensic results neither affirmed or dismissed the dogs indications, does not mean the dogs didn't react to the presence of a body in the apartment.
There is no evidence Maddie died in the apartment ..... that is a fact None whatsoever The alerts are not evidence
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2017, 01:48:48 PM
The absense of corroborating evidence, does not mean the dogs incorrectly alerted Sadie.
This is why you and others return to this, again and again.
Dogs don't lie, and they have no agenda.
Neither did Grime.
I agree "Dogs don't lie, and they have no agenda."
But it is the way that their alerts are interpreted that matters. They were misread/ misunderstood in this case.
There was absolutely NO confirmation of Madeleines demise .
Possibly because of not having full understanding, Amaral misread the alerts
You are an intelligent person and you have to accept that fact, stephen.
You simply cannot carry on saying that there was no evidence ... but Madeleine probably died in 5A. No basis to say it ... and TBQH it is a malicious thing to keep saying
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2017, 01:55:46 PM
I agree "Dogs don't lie, and they have no agenda."
But it is the way that their alerts are interpreted that matters. They were misread/ misunderstood in this case.
There was absolutely NO confirmation of Madeleines demise .
Possibly because of not having full understanding, Amaral misread the alerts
You are an intelligent person and you have to accept that fact, stephen.
You simply cannot carry on saying that there was no evidence ... but Madeleine probably died in 5A. No basis to say it ... and TBQH it is a malicious thing to keep saying
You really need to read Sadie.
Merely because the alerts weren't corroborated, doesn't mean the alerts can be discarded.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 01:59:14 PM
Merely because the alerts weren't corroborated, doesn't mean the alerts can be discarded.
Need I remind you, and don't bother giving details of your so called sightings (they have been dismissed and negated), not a trace of Madeleine since that night.
I note you still cannot provide any evidence that Maddie died in the apartment as I predicted
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2017, 02:10:34 PM
Merely because the alerts weren't corroborated, doesn't mean the alerts can be discarded.
*&*%£
If only you knew ! ?{)(**
ETA: Now forgive me, I must get on
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 02:20:24 PM
I don't have an issue with the man, I have more an issue with those who think he and his dogs are somehow invincible and head and shoulders (and noses) above all other similar dog teams.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
I don't have an issue with the man, I have more an issue with those who think he and his dogs are somehow invincible and head and shoulders (and noses) above all other similar dog teams.
Yes Alfie, that is his job.
I don't recall that I have said he is any better or worse than other forensic dog handler.
As far as I am concerned, he just did his job.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 02:39:37 PM
I don't recall that I have said he is any better or worse than other forensic dog handler.
As far as I am concerned, he just did his job.
I think so too, I suppose where we may differ is how well we think he did his job. I think there were some basic errors (which may or may not have been of his making) which may have unwittingly let to false alerts. I'm thinking for example of the McCanns car in the carpark being the only one covered in Madeleine posters, posters which inexplicably were removed at some point during the video filming.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 03:51:00 PM
There is as much evidence of accidental death, as there is for abduction.
So, get over it.
There's no evidence of accidental death None whatsoever
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2017, 03:53:22 PM
I have written many posts on Martin Grime and his dogs, and have never libelled him or attempted to discredit him - or ever wanted to.
However, neither have I elevated him to the status of 'a perfect human being' who is incapable of ever making the same mistakes that all human beings are capable of making, especially when they are under extraordinary pressure.
I can see no credible reason why Martin Grime should be exempt from the same scrutiny/discussion that everyone else who is associated with the McCann case is subjected to - on a forum which is designed specifically for that purpose.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: faithlilly on January 13, 2017, 04:21:51 PM
I think so too, I suppose where we may differ is how well we think he did his job. I think there were some basic errors (which may or may not have been of his making) which may have unwittingly let to false alerts. I'm thinking for example of the McCanns car in the carpark being the only one covered in Madeleine posters, posters which inexplicably were removed at some point during the video filming.
Are you saying MG knew that search protocol had been breached by went ahead anyway?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 04:32:45 PM
Am I the only person who understands the alerts. the alerts themselves are unimportant it is what evidence is found that is important. Grime spent a lot of time on all things mccann....calling the dogs back several times because he wanted to be sure the dogs did not miss any vital evidence that may have helped the investigation. As it was the dogs found nothing of any importance....no evidence that maddie died in the apartment
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 05:24:56 PM
Are you saying MG knew that search protocol had been breached by went ahead anyway?
Apparently I am not allowed to ask you not to put words in my mouth as my previous request was deleted. So instead perhaps you could describe the search protocol he should have been following and that will allow me to answer properly.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2017, 05:37:34 PM
They reinforce the possibility that Madeleine may have died in or around 5a.
They could also reinforce the possibility that someone else may have died in or around 5a. Or they could reinforce the possibility that furniture or furnishings used in the apartment had previously come into contact with a cadaver. Or they could reinforce the possibility that police that had previously come into contact with cadavers entering the apartment accidentally contaminated various areas of the apartment. Or they could confirm the possibility that someone stayed in the apartment after the McCanns whose career brings them into contact with dead bodies. Or they could reinforce the possibilty that someone planted cadaver odour in the apartment to frame the McCanns. Or they could reinforce the possibility that unconcious handler bias can lead to false alerts. So.....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 07:01:54 PM
They could also reinforce the possibility that someone else may have died in or around 5a. Or they could reinforce the possibility that furniture or furnishings used in the apartment had previously come into contact with a cadaver. Or they could reinforce the possibility that police that had previously come into contact with cadavers entering the apartment accidentally contaminated various areas of the apartment. Or they could confirm the possibility that someone stayed in the apartment after the McCanns whose career brings them into contact with dead bodies. Or they could reinforce the possibilty that someone planted cadaver odour in the apartment to frame the McCanns. Or they could reinforce the possibility that unconcious handler bias can lead to false alerts. So.....
Of course if we apply Occam's razor to the case of a missing girl...
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 13, 2017, 07:05:06 PM
...until you find something that changes the case.
If Shannon Matthews had been smuggled out of that apartment and been sent to live with gypsies in Bulgaria never to be seen again then as far as you're concerned the dog alerts would have reinforced the possibility that she was dead.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 07:09:10 PM
they are not evidence...what you are saying is totally untrue
Actually, in investigative circles an alert by a cadaver or a CSI dog is deemed to be evidence but as you have correctly pointed out on many occasions, without corroboration they have no evidential reliability. I hasten to add that evidence can take many forms and on its own does not constitute proof of anything.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 07:45:23 PM
Actually, in investigative circles an alert by a cadaver or a CSI dog is deemed to be evidence but as you have correctly pointed out on many occasions, without corroboration they have no evidential reliability.
evidence of what john
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 13, 2017, 07:49:27 PM
Actually, in investigative circles an alert by a cadaver or a CSI dog is deemed to be evidence but as you have correctly pointed out on many occasions, without corroboration they have no evidential reliability. I hasten to add that evidence can take many forms and on its own does not constitute proof of anything.
what you are claiming seems very subjective.......a bunch of dog handlers sitting round saying i think my dogs right but i have no real evidence he is....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 13, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
#no they dont because the alerts are not deemed to be reliable and their is no independent verification to say they are. I would say based on the available evidence taht none of the alerts in pdl related to maddie
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 08:16:43 PM
what you are claiming seems very subjective.......a bunch of dog handlers sitting round saying i think my dogs right but i have no real evidence he is....
Training and reliability comes into it. Some dogs might be unreliable, but Martin claims Eddie was very reliable.
OK I agree with Davel - this does not point to Madeleine. The alert does not have a name on it. Unless you are willing to allow for another cadaver though it gets real tricky to explain it in your own mind.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2017, 11:16:20 PM
He may have answered the question previously. The dog alerts don't confirm anything. It is a matter of training and reliability. So it would be given a rating of certainty or probability, which may be as high as 90% in the case of Eddie, 60% in the case of some other dogs (e.g. the unreliable ones Gerry had read about).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 09:16:41 AM
He may have answered the question previously. The dog alerts don't confirm anything. It is a matter of training and reliability. So it would be given a rating of certainty or probability, which may be as high as 90% in the case of Eddie, 60% in the case of some other dogs (e.g. the unreliable ones Gerry had read about).
Have we ever had a cite for the source of G. Mccann's unreliability of forensic dogs ?
Or is it something Mccann made up ???
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:33:14 AM
Have we ever had a cite for the source of G. Mccann's unreliability of forensic dogs ?
Or is it something Mccann made up ???
I've seen it quoted as an American study that the reliability was as low as 70%. it was raised in the Zapota case. I think it was Richard Hall that discusses it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 09:35:27 AM
I've seen it quoted as an American study that the reliability was as low as 70%. it was raised in the Zapota case. I think it was Richard Hall that discusses it.
A comprehensive analysis would need top be made, to discuss how effective dogs are in these circumstances.
However, bottom line.
The dogs will do what they are trained to do, and do not have an agenda.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 09:55:43 AM
Have we ever had a cite for the source of G. Mccann's unreliability of forensic dogs ?
Or is it something Mccann made up ???
I find it quite amusing to read Kate's comments. She describes herself and her husband as;
Gerry and I are scientists by inclination and profession [Madeleine]
She comments on the dog searches;
This was not what I would call an exact science.[Madeleine]
Firstly, medicine is not an exact science either, so she and her husband are not scientists by profession. Secondly, how could using dogs be an exact science anyway?
Some doctors are scientists—just as some politicians are scientists—but most are not. http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7454/0.9
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 10:01:56 AM
I find it quite amusing to read Kate's comments. She describes herself and her husband as;
Gerry and I are scientists by inclination and profession [Madeleine]
She comments on the dog searches;
This was not what I would call an exact science.[Madeleine]
Firstly, medicine is not an exact science either, so she and her husband are not scientists by profession. Secondly, how could using dogs be an exact science anyway?
Some doctors are scientists—just as some politicians are scientists—but most are not. http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7454/0.9
What are you getting at?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 10:23:18 AM
Medicine is not static, it is on a learning curve.
The statement by Gerry Mccann as regards the dogs is quite laughable.
Dogs are used all around the world in a variety of locations and for a variety of different services.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 10:34:31 AM
Medicine is not static, it is on a learning curve.
The statement by Gerry Mccann as regards the dogs is quite laughable.
Dogs are used all around the world in a variety of locations and for a variety of different services.
An amazing study was done in NZ by a farmer. He recorded dog barks and learned how to talk back to the dogs in their own language and he was able to tell them what to do and then let them go and do it. It was a lot easier than having to whistle at them all the time.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 10:47:50 AM
An amazing study was done in NZ by a farmer. He recorded dog barks and learned how to talk back to the dogs in their own language and he was able to tell them what to do and then let them go and do it. It was a lot easier than having to whistle at them all the time.
I would like to see a link to this study.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 10:49:53 AM
your post shows your total ignorance of the facts and your problems with people who are plainly far more intelligent than you
medicine is supported by millions of scientific studies.....as regards the dogs alerts there seems to virually no proper scientific studies
in her degree kate will have been trained to appraise studies in a scientific manner....your post is so far off the mark it shows your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of what medicine and a medical gegree consists of
I'm intelligent enough to know what a 'science' is, which is why I agree with Richard Smith, the editor of the BMJ in 2004.
One of medicine's biggest successes in recent years is it's work on smoking. They cannot, however, prove that smoking causes harm to people's health. They cannot predict that smokers will develop certain diseases as a result of smoking.
Science, for me, includes the kind of predictability which tells us that an apple falling from a tree will always, without fail, fall to the ground. Medicine has very rarely reached that level of scientific rigour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 11:29:00 AM
the point i am making is the alert itself is of no evidentilal value
Nevertheless it arouses suspicion and affects how police view those associated with the container. The alerts in the Prout and Zapatta cases had no evidential value, but they pointed the police in the right direction.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2017, 11:58:05 AM
#no they dont because the alerts are not deemed to be reliable and their is no independent verification to say they are. I would say based on the available evidence taht none of the alerts in pdl related to maddie
For once you are talking nonsense. Certainly dog handlers and especially police dog handlers give evidence in court. Hasn't Mr Grime told us as much too?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2017, 12:00:06 PM
Training and reliability comes into it. Some dogs might be unreliable, but Martin claims Eddie was very reliable.
OK I agree with Davel - this does not point to Madeleine. The alert does not have a name on it. Unless you are willing to allow for another cadaver though it gets real tricky to explain it in your own mind.
Davel in his desperation to protection his own point of view appears to be confusing evidence with proof of a crime.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2017, 12:02:34 PM
If But no sign in 10 years and the investigation closing Get real
So Scotland Yard have spent £10 million for nothing iyo?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 12:13:42 PM
I'm afraid to say Gerry McCann was talking put of his derreiere when referring to the non-reliability of dogs, and his comment to Sandra in that infamous interview said it all.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 14, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
If the dog's alerts were conclusive "evidence" why did the Portuguese Prosecutors dismiss it out of hand instead of laying charges against Madeleine's parents and proceeding to trial on the strength of it?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 01:13:21 PM
I'm afraid to say Gerry McCann was talking put of his derreiere when referring to the non-reliability of dogs, and his comment to Sandra in that infamous interview said it all.
gerry was absolutely right and the irony in his statement has obviously gone right over your head
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2017, 01:21:50 PM
If the dog's alerts were conclusive "evidence" why did the Portuguese Prosecutors dismiss it out of hand instead of laying charges against Madeleine's parents and proceeding to trial on the strength of it?
The prosecutors saw the alerts as raising 'founded suspicions' of the McCanns which led 'inexorably' to them being made arguidos, they did not dismiss them out of hand;
Confronted with these elements, namely the possibility of the existence of a cadaver in the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the parents, founded suspicions of their involvement were raised.
As they were summoned to depose again, while there was no plausible explanation for those situations and as they were to be confronted with the dogs' findings and with the lab information, which were susceptible of rendering them responsible as authors of crimes (at least, of neglectful homicide and of concealment of a cadaver), they were, obligatorily and inexorably, made arguidos, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 01:24:04 PM
The prosecutors saw the alerts as raising 'founded suspicions' of the McCanns which led 'inexorably' to them being made arguidos, they did not dismiss them out of hand;
Confronted with these elements, namely the possibility of the existence of a cadaver in the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the parents, founded suspicions of their involvement were raised.
As they were summoned to depose again, while there was no plausible explanation for those situations and as they were to be confronted with the dogs' findings and with the lab information, which were susceptible of rendering them responsible as authors of crimes (at least, of neglectful homicide and of concealment of a cadaver), they were, obligatorily and inexorably, made arguidos, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
what lab information would that be...total rubbish
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2017, 02:32:49 PM
thank you for confirming that talking out of your backside is an acceptable phrase on this forum
you are talking out of your backside......the alerts themselves are not reliable evidence
Is any evidence reliable? The alerts are fact and as such are evidence. What interpretation is thereafter put on that evidence depends on the other evidence found. In the Maddie case no other evidence has been establish but that can change over time.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 14, 2017, 02:33:07 PM
Is any evidence reliable? The alerts are fact and as such are evidence. What interpretation is thereafter put on that evidence depends on the other evidence found. In the Maddie case no other evidence has been establish but that can change over time.
Indeed.
However, if a body was discovered....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Is any evidence reliable? The alerts are fact and as such are evidence. What interpretation is thereafter put on that evidence depends on the other evidence found. In the Maddie case no other evidence has been establish but that can change over time.
according to grime the alerts are not reliable evidence as they stand.....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2017, 02:34:53 PM
The prosecutors saw the alerts as raising 'founded suspicions' of the McCanns which led 'inexorably' to them being made arguidos, they did not dismiss them out of hand;
Confronted with these elements, namely the possibility of the existence of a cadaver in the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the parents, founded suspicions of their involvement were raised.
As they were summoned to depose again, while there was no plausible explanation for those situations and as they were to be confronted with the dogs' findings and with the lab information, which were susceptible of rendering them responsible as authors of crimes (at least, of neglectful homicide and of concealment of a cadaver), they were, obligatorily and inexorably, made arguidos, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
I couldn't have put it better thus the alerts were evidence allbethey uncorroborated.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 02:40:09 PM
The prosecutors saw the alerts as raising 'founded suspicions' of the McCanns which led 'inexorably' to them being made arguidos, they did not dismiss them out of hand;
Confronted with these elements, namely the possibility of the existence of a cadaver in the apartment and in the vehicle that was used by the parents, founded suspicions of their involvement were raised.
As they were summoned to depose again, while there was no plausible explanation for those situations and as they were to be confronted with the dogs' findings and with the lab information, which were susceptible of rendering them responsible as authors of crimes (at least, of neglectful homicide and of concealment of a cadaver), they were, obligatorily and inexorably, made arguidos, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Unfortunately they went further than considering the presence of a cadaver as merely 'a possibility' and decided that because Eddie had alerted then that was proof that a dead body must have been present at some time. It would appear that either they did not know - or chose to ignore all the other reasons - (some of them perfectly innocent reasons,) as to why an alert from Eddie might occur.
IOW they were either ignorant of the facts or chose to cherry pick the information from M. Grime and Harrison.
IMO
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 02:53:50 PM
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 02:58:01 PM
you claimed that the dogs alerted to what they are trained for...ie cadaver odour that has not been established you are wrong we dont know what they alerted to
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 14, 2017, 04:01:59 PM
Think about it logically and then there is nothing strange about it.
I think you will need to explain your logic.
If I was missing a child, and a policeman had told me in 2007 that the dogs 'evidence' suggested the child was dead then I can safely say a degree of panic would have set in. My innocence or guilt would not be the point. If I thought the child had been removed by AN Other, I would now be thinking my child was not merely missing, but dead.
Kate writes that Gerry had to extensively research the capability of cadaver dogs before asserting they are unreliable. It is not the type of background knowledge one gleans in an arguido interview.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 04:48:57 PM
It's always seemed strange that the first reaction was to dismiss the alerts rather than panic that something fatal had happened to M.
i thought kates first reaction was to say she had no idea why a dog would alert having been asked to explain the alert. this ata atime when she felt she could be arrested at any minute
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2017, 05:00:49 PM
If I was missing a child, and a policeman had told me in 2007 that the dogs 'evidence' suggested the child was dead then I can safely say a degree of panic would have set in. My innocence or guilt would not be the point. If I thought the child had been removed by AN Other, I would now be thinking my child was not merely missing, but dead.
Kate writes that Gerry had to extensively research the capability of cadaver dogs before asserting they are unreliable. It is not the type of background knowledge one gleans in an arguido interview.
The context in which the McCanns were told about the alerts was that they (no-one else) were suspected of disposing of the body of their dead child. As they knew this was not true and knowing as they did that no dead body had been in 5A or in their car to be disposed of or alerted to - then surely their very first reaction would be to dismiss the whole idea as not being possible.
Context is everything.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 14, 2017, 05:04:04 PM
The context in which the McCanns were told about the alerts was that they (no-one else) were suspected of disposing of the body of their dead child. As they knew this was not true and knowing as they did that no dead body had been in 5A or in their car to be disposed of or alerted to - then surely their very first reaction would be to dismiss the whole idea as not being possible.
Context is everything.
I am sure you will provide a cite?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 05:07:36 PM
If I was missing a child, and a policeman had told me in 2007 that the dogs 'evidence' suggested the child was dead then I can safely say a degree of panic would have set in. My innocence or guilt would not be the point. If I thought the child had been removed by AN Other, I would now be thinking my child was not merely missing, but dead.
Kate writes that Gerry had to extensively research the capability of cadaver dogs before asserting they are unreliable. It is not the type of background knowledge one gleans in an arguido interview.
The dog alerts suggested Madeleine died in the apartment. It takes 90 minutes or longer for cadaver odour to develop. The McCanns (knowing as they did that Madeleine was alive at 9pm but gone by 10pm) would know that her death in the apartment could not have been the cause of the alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 05:24:48 PM
The dog alerts suggested Madeleine died in the apartment. It takes 90 minutes or longer for cadaver odour to develop. The McCanns (knowing as they did that Madeleine was alive at 9pm but gone by 10pm) would know that her death in the apartment could not have been the cause of the alert.
so as i pointed out if the dogs alerted to a cadaver the mccanns are guilty and there is no abductor does anyome think SY do not understand this
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 05:58:09 PM
so as i pointed out if the dogs alerted to a cadaver the mccanns are guilty and there is no abductor does anyone think SY do not understand this
Gerry says she was alive at 9:05 PM. Kate found her Missing at 10:00. Is that more than 90 minutes? So stop worrying about Maddie dying in the apartment.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 14, 2017, 06:01:41 PM
you claimed that the dogs alerted to what they are trained for...ie cadaver odour that has not been established you are wrong we dont know what they alerted to
Do you really think the hour of training that MG did with Eddie means nothing?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 06:13:37 PM
doesnt bug me at all..........i just like to correct people who are wrong... the alerts are not reliable evidence.........fact
There was the alert inside the apartment (main bedroom) and the one in the garden area. Two alerts from a dog with a rating of over 90% accuracy so you can mulitiply those two 90% together = 81% over two goes, whereas flipping a coin head or tail you'd only expect a 25% chance of getting 2 heads. 81/25 is better than 90/50. The odds of getting two alerts in the same place mean the presence of a cadaver is improved.
There was the alert inside the apartment (main bedroom) and the one in the garden area. Two alerts from a dog with a rating of over 90% accuracy so you can mulitiply those two 90% together = 81% over two goes, whereas flipping a coin head or tail you'd only expect a 25% chance of getting 2 heads. 81/25 is better than 90/50. The odds of getting two alerts in the same place mean the presence of a cadaver is improved.Right neither do I. He had a remarkable dog with a remarkable talent.
A little reminder, Rob, about Eddie's tendency to bark (especially in corners). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 06:36:51 PM
A little reminder, Rob, about Eddie's tendency to bark (especially in corners). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
1:24 an alert bark 1:54 an alert bark 2:34 an alert bark 2:50 an alert bark 4:04 an alert bark (minor) 4:34 an alert bark same area (minor) 5:02 an alert bark top of stairs
Maybe the levels of smell build up in corners as does dust.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 14, 2017, 06:44:40 PM
1:24 an alert bark 1:54 an alert bark 2:34 an alert bark 2:50 an alert bark 4:04 an alert bark (minor) 4:34 an alert bark same area (minor) 5:02 an alert bark top of stairs
Maybe the levels of smell build up in corners as does dust.
The quest was to find evidence of death from 30-40 years before yet there was no proof anyone had ever died in the building. The building had also been refurbished.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 06:49:33 PM
The dog alerts suggested Madeleine died in the apartment. It takes 90 minutes or longer for cadaver odour to develop. The McCanns (knowing as they did that Madeleine was alive at 9pm but gone by 10pm) would know that her death in the apartment could not have been the cause of the alert.
Thank you for replying.
I am not going to be nit-picking and point out that the alerts occurred months after the disappearance happened, when whatever is 'cadaver odour' had plenty of time to ferment.
Nor do I wish to get into a debate about how long 'cadaver odour' takes to appear after death. I have seen as little as 10 minutes, but don't ask me for a cite. I have no intention of running around chasing the doggies.
The issue is what happens in a formal police interview about a 'technical' subject when the police intimate that there is evidence that your child is dead?
I can understand rejection. I can understand panic. I can understand confusion. What I cannot see is logic, assuming the McCanns had no knowledge to power this 'logic'.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 06:54:07 PM
The quest was to find evidence of death from 30-40 years before yet there was no proof anyone had ever died in the building. The building had also been refurbished.
You could safely put that one in the "too hard basket".
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 14, 2017, 06:59:19 PM
I am not going to be nit-picking and point out that the alerts occurred months after the disappearance happened, when whatever is 'cadaver odour' had plenty of time to ferment.
Nor do I wish to get into a debate about how long 'cadaver odour' takes to appear after death. I have seen as little as 10 minutes, but don't ask me for a cite. I have no intention of running around chasing the doggies.
The issue is what happens in a formal police interview about a 'technical' subject when the police intimate that there is evidence that your child is dead?
I can understand rejection. I can understand panic. I can understand confusion. What I cannot see is logic, assuming the McCanns had no knowledge to power this 'logic'.
1) I have never in 10 years of following this case seen anyone claim that a cadaver dog can alert to a body just 10 minutes after death 2) How many weeks between Gerry being told of the dog alerts and his formal police interview?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:02:44 PM
I am not going to be nit-picking and point out that the alerts occurred months after the disappearance happened, when whatever is 'cadaver odour' had plenty of time to ferment.
Nor do I wish to get into a debate about how long 'cadaver odour' takes to appear after death. I have seen as little as 10 minutes, but don't ask me for a cite. I have no intention of running around chasing the doggies.
The issue is what happens in a formal police interview about a 'technical' subject when the police intimate that there is evidence that your child is dead?
I can understand rejection. I can understand panic. I can understand confusion. What I cannot see is logic, assuming the McCanns had no knowledge to power this 'logic'.
That is the thing you don't know what they knew by that stage. It would be unwise to assume "the McCanns had no knowledge" at this stage of the investigation.
It would have been noted immediately, as Eddie barks quite loud. It is hard to keep that a secret.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 14, 2017, 07:05:21 PM
That is the thing you don't know what they knew by that stage. It would be unwise to assume "the McCanns had no knowledge" at this stage of the investigation.
It would have been noted immediately, as Eddie barks quite loud. It is hard to keep that a secret.
The McCanns knew in Mid August of the dog alerts, so I dont know where the idea came from that their first reactions were at the arguido interviews. Furthermore Kate describes that absolute anguish and bewilderment that the news caused her, but that seems to have been overlooked by some of our fellow members.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:09:52 PM
The McCanns knew in Mid August of the dog alerts, so I dont know where the idea came from that their first reactions were at the arguido interviews. Furthermore Kate describes that absolute anguish and bewilderment that the news caused her, but that seems to have been overlooked by some of our fellow members.
That is right in one way for there is a dog alert - myriad of possible reasons. Compare that to the situation of someone saying your daughter is the cause of the cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:13:24 PM
I am not going to be nit-picking and point out that the alerts occurred months after the disappearance happened, when whatever is 'cadaver odour' had plenty of time to ferment.
Nor do I wish to get into a debate about how long 'cadaver odour' takes to appear after death. I have seen as little as 10 minutes, but don't ask me for a cite. I have no intention of running around chasing the doggies.
The issue is what happens in a formal police interview about a 'technical' subject when the police intimate that there is evidence that your child is dead?
I can understand rejection. I can understand panic. I can understand confusion. What I cannot see is logic, assuming the McCanns had no knowledge to power this 'logic'.
just about everything in your post is wrong
cadaver odour does not ferment it is produced inside the body and released. if the body is removed within a short period no cadaver odour
the 10 min claim is ridiculous ...no cite so valueless. rhose posters who have researched this agree on around 90 mins
the logic was not produced at the interview but some time alter when gerry had had time to do his research
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:24:48 PM
There was the alert inside the apartment (main bedroom) and the one in the garden area. Two alerts from a dog with a rating of over 90% accuracy so you can mulitiply those two 90% together = 81% over two goes, whereas flipping a coin head or tail you'd only expect a 25% chance of getting 2 heads. 81/25 is better than 90/50. The odds of getting two alerts in the same place mean the presence of a cadaver is improved.Right neither do I. He had a remarkable dog with a remarkable talent.
eddies accuracy has never been properly tested...we dont know how accurate he is what we do know is if there are remains he is very good at finding them....we dont know what happens when there are no remains
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:28:49 PM
1) I have never in 10 years of following this case seen anyone claim that a cadaver dog can alert to a body just 10 minutes after death 2) How many weeks between Gerry being told of the dog alerts and his formal police interview?
10 minutes could be the time for the odour to leach through a plastic bag. For example if a cadaver that is already smelly is put in a bag and the bag is moved to a fresh location, when will the new site show contamination - 10 minutes.
eddies accuracy has never been properly tested...we dont know how accurate he is what we do know is if there are remains he is very good at finding them....we dont know what happens when there are no remains
Davel - get a rotten tooth and the dog will find it. Rub that tooth on some cloth and the dog will find the cloth. The actual body is not important it is the odour transfer.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:30:42 PM
10 minutes could be the time for the odour to leach through a plastic bag. For example if a cadaver that is already smelly is put in a bag and the bag is moved to a fresh location, when will the new site show contamination - 10 minutes.Davel - get a rotten tooth and the dog will find it. Rub that tooth on some cloth and the dog will find the cloth. The actual body is not important it is the odour transfer.
yes i know and one possibility is one of the policeman had been in contact with abody and contaminated everything
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:34:31 PM
yes i know and one possibility is one of the policeman had been in contact with abody and contaminated everything
That is possible but highly unlikely. But that is right and good lateral thinking on your part to open up your mind to other possibilities of the source of the cadaver odour other than just thinking it was Madeleine.
I know the idea of checking the staff and area was practiced with the DNA and evidence collectors. They submit their hair and DNA for comparison. Maybe Grime checks the staff that attend the searches before they enter as well to prevent this happening on the day of the check. Had it occurred earlier he would have no control over that.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 07:35:05 PM
The McCanns knew in Mid August of the dog alerts, so I dont know where the idea came from that their first reactions were at the arguido interviews. Furthermore Kate describes that absolute anguish and bewilderment that the news caused her, but that seems to have been overlooked by some of our fellow members.
As I said, I am not going to traipse around on the trail of the doggies. If you are stating that the McCanns were forewarned of the doggie alerts, and even had the time and/or energy to research this before their arguido interviews, so be it.
It does not come across that way in Kate's book, but then, in 2007 I had no interest in this case whatsoever.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:39:17 PM
As I said, I am not going to traipse around on the trail of the doggies. If you are stating that the McCanns were forewarned of the doggie alerts, and even had the time and/or energy to research this before their arguido interviews, so be it.
It does not come across that way in Kate's book, but then, in 2007 I had no interest in this case whatsoever.
if you dont provide a cite then dont expect your post to be accepted as a fact
the logical response did not come at the interview . You are totally confused. the logic came later. I am stating nothing of the kind what you suggested...you need to raed the post again....not the first time you have totally misquoted me
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 07:42:01 PM
it could also have been deliberate contamination by the pj to pressurise a confession
But it would have to be some sort of reality to it. Generally no one is going to confess to murder if they didn't do it or to accidental death unless they are aware of it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
But it would have to be some sort of reality to it. Generally no one is going to confess to murder if they didn't do it or to accidental death unless they are aware of it.
but the pj believed they did it
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 07:47:52 PM
cadaver odour does not ferment it is produced inside the body and released. if the body is removed within a short period no cadaver odour
the 10 min claim is ridiculous ...no cite so valueless. rhose posters who have researched this agree on around 90 mins
the logic was not produced at the interview but some time alter when gerry had had time to do his research
No doubt you have the cites to support this so feel free to go for it.
"Gerry had had time to do his research"? What? Are you saying or implying that Mr McCann had swatted up on the dogs before his arguido interview? Did he brush this nonsense aside in his arguido interview?
And if you wish to assert that 'cadaver odour' comes only from inside the body after someone has been dead for 90 minutes, get on with the cite. The whole point is that both dogs alerted to Gerry McCann, who most definitely was not dead. Not even for 90 minutes.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 14, 2017, 07:50:40 PM
As I said, I am not going to traipse around on the trail of the doggies. If you are stating that the McCanns were forewarned of the doggie alerts, and even had the time and/or energy to research this before their arguido interviews, so be it.
It does not come across that way in Kate's book, but then, in 2007 I had no interest in this case whatsoever.
The McCanns were made aware of the dogs' alerts on Sat 11th August 2007 by Ricardo Paiva. Madeleine page 218.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 07:56:48 PM
if you dont provide a cite then dont expect your post to be accepted as a fact
the logical response did not come at the interview . You are totally confused. the logic came later. I am stating nothing of the kind what you suggested...you need to raed the post again....not the first time you have totally misquoted me
I don't expect my post to be accepted as fact. What I do expect most readers to accept as fact is that in my opinion, there is little in the dog evidence that is of interest. Your opinion seems to be at the opposite end of the spectrum.
If you think I was 'totally misquoting' you, the thread shows that my initial reply re timing and emotional response was directed to Alfie.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:57:25 PM
No doubt you have the cites to support this so feel free to go for it.
"Gerry had had time to do his research"? What? Are you saying or implying that Mr McCann had swatted up on the dogs before his arguido interview? Did he brush this nonsense aside in his arguido interview?
And if you wish to assert that 'cadaver odour' comes only from inside the body after someone has been dead for 90 minutes, get on with the cite. The whole point is that both dogs alerted to Gerry McCann, who most definitely was not dead. Not even for 90 minutes.
gerrys comments on the unreliability of the dogs did not come at his arguido interview...they came later
the dogs did not alert to gerry mccann...what are you talking about..that is plainly ridiculous
you really need to understand the basic facts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 07:59:34 PM
I don't expect my post to be accepted as fact. What I do expect most readers to accept as fact is that in my opinion, there is little in the dog evidence that is of interest. Your opinion seems to be at the opposite end of the spectrum.
If you think I was 'totally misquoting' you, the thread shows that my initial reply re timing and emotional response was directed to Alfie.
if there is little of the dog evidence that is of interest then it would not be about the most discussed topic on the board
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 08:01:01 PM
No doubt you have the cites to support this so feel free to go for it.
"Gerry had had time to do his research"? What? Are you saying or implying that Mr McCann had swatted up on the dogs before his arguido interview? Did he brush this nonsense aside in his arguido interview?
And if you wish to assert that 'cadaver odour' comes only from inside the body after someone has been dead for 90 minutes, get on with the cite. The whole point is that both dogs alerted to Gerry McCann, who most definitely was not dead. Not even for 90 minutes.
cadaver odour comes from..... a cadaver.....not from a living human
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 08:03:39 PM
so do you understand what they alerted to...dried blood...they will alert to any dried blood. they do not alert to live humans
Of course they can. Cut off your arm in surgery and toss it over a cliff, Eddie (a cadaver dog) will alert to the body part but you are still alive, hopefully if you get over the surgery.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 08:23:16 PM
Of course they can. Cut off your arm in surgery and toss it over a cliff, Eddie will alert to the body part but you are still alive hopefully if you get over the surgery.
so eddie alerts to the dead arm not the live human
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 14, 2017, 08:25:22 PM
so eddie alerts to the dead arm not the live human
Yes but you can't assume when you first find the arm that the donor is dead. The same with the blood found in the apartment. A few spots of blood doesn't mean someone has died.
Yes but you can't assume when you first find the arm that the donor is dead. The same with the blood found in the apartment. A few spots of blood doesn't mean someone has died. I'm try to recalibrate Davel.
both dogs alert to dried blood from a live person
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 08:34:20 PM
dogs do not alert to live humans eddie alerts to cadaver odour and dried blood
gerry did not refer to the dogs as unreliable at his arguido interview
you seem terribly confused
Eddie does not alert to dried blood. He alerts to human cadaver odour. If the key pad had dried blood on it it doesn't mean that is what Eddie alerted to.
Of course they can. Cut off your arm in surgery and toss it over a cliff, Eddie (a cadaver dog) will alert to the body part but you are still alive, hopefully if you get over the surgery.
Therein lies the problem. Canine detection of a cadaver will continue to be fuzzy science until the precise chemical odour pertaining to all dead humans is isolated & used for training purposes.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 08:39:42 PM
Therein lies the problem. Canine detection of a cadaver will continue to be fuzzy science until the precise chemical odour pertaining to all dead humans is isolated & used for training purposes.
Now you are pulling my leg! How will the body part become aware whether the donor survives the surgery or not? It must be the actual DNA decomposition products that is detected by the cadaver dog.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 08:41:37 PM
Eddie does not alert to dried blood. He alerts to human cadaver odour. If the key pad had dried blood on it it doesn't mean that is what Eddie alerted to. Keela alerts to Human dried blood. - there is no suggestion whether donor is dead or alive. That does not form part of the equation.
eddie alerts to dried blood from a live human...or dead for that matter
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 08:44:04 PM
eddie alerts to dried blood from a live human...or dead for that matter
Sadie used to say the same thing but I have never seen a cite for that. I believe it is a misconception. If you really beleive that find a cite other than Sadie.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 08:49:07 PM
Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.
Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.
You didn't give me the whole quote - the word dried is not there and the emphasis is on decomposition. "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. "
OK he could alert to dried decomposed blood but not dried fresh blood.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 09:13:51 PM
You didn't give me the whole quote - the word dried is not there and the emphasis is on decomposition. "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. "
OK he could alert to dried decomposed blood but not dried fresh blood.
Blood does not decompose like flesh and does not produce cadaverine Eddie alerts to dried blood from a live person I'm sure my detractors will dive in and correct me if it were not true It is
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:17:15 PM
Blood does not decompose like flesh and does not produce cadaverine Eddie alerts to dried blood from a live person I'm sure my detractors will dive in and correct me if it were not true It is
You are absolutely wrong "Blood does not decompose like flesh and does not produce cadaverine" absolutely wrong. "Eddie alerts to dried blood from a live person" absolutely wrong. "I'm sure my detractors will dive in and correct me if it were not true" absolutely wrong.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 09:17:51 PM
As I understand Eddie was initially trained as a blood dog and reacts to blood and cadaver It is now considered bad practice and more recently trained cadaver dogs do not alert to blood I have no cite but hopefully someone else wil
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
You are absolutely wrong "Blood does not decompose like flesh and does not produce cadaverine" absolutely wrong. "Eddie alerts to dried blood from a live person" absolutely wrong. "I'm sure my detractors will dive in and correct me if it were not true" absolutely wrong.
Looks like you think I'm absolutely wrong But I'm absolutely right
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 09:23:39 PM
Dried blood does not produce cadaverine If it did Keela would alert to cadavers
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:28:47 PM
No one has dived in to correct you other than me. Exactly - fresh dried blood is what keela alerts to. Not decomposed then dried blood. There lies the difference.
Eddie alerts to fresh dried blood from a living person
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:42:09 PM
Eddie alerts to fresh dried blood from a living person
If that was the case Martin Grime didn't need to bring Keela along then, did he. He could have saved himself a lot of expense in training two dogs when he could have got away with just one.
When Eddie alerts he barks and walks around, you would have no idea where the minute spot of blood was, so it is not an alert in anyone's vocabulary.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 09:47:42 PM
If that was the case Martin Grime didn't need to bring Keela along then, did he. He could have saved himself a lot of expense in training two dogs when he could have got away with just one.
When Eddie alerts he barks and walks around, you would have no idea where the minute spot of blood was, so it is not an alert in anyone's vocabulary.
I'm afraid what I'm saying is absolutely right
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 09:50:33 PM
But I am trying to, so therefore I have to be very correct what I say. At times I make a mistake but if I'm corrected I accept it. I'm running out of ideas to explore in order to break open the case. Maybe I need to visit SIL and explore PDL for new ideas.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 14, 2017, 10:38:41 PM
But I am trying to, so therefore I have to be very correct what I say. At times I make a mistake but if I'm corrected I accept it. I'm running out of ideas to explore in order to break open the case. Maybe I need to visit SIL and explore PDL for new ideas.
What makes you think you can go better than SY
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2017, 11:34:59 PM
A little reminder, Rob, about Eddie's tendency to bark (especially in corners). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
Gawd .. are you ever observant.
8@??)( Well noticed misty. What would this forum do without you ?
Those door alcoves, which Eddie kept barking in, are quite similar in proportions width-wise to the gap between the wardrobe and the bed in the Mccann bedroom.
Hmmm? £5%4%
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2017, 02:22:28 AM
8@??)( Well noticed misty. What would this forum do without you ?
Those door alcoves, which Eddie kept barking in, are quite similar in proportions width-wise to the gap between the wardrobe and the bed in the Mccann bedroom.
Hmmm? £5%4%
There would have been tight corners in the other apartments too Sadie, and the kids bedroom had even tighter corners.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 15, 2017, 02:40:37 AM
I don't know of another video where we can see a different dog performing a similar exercise for comparison. All I know is it strikes a bit odd that virtually all the indoor alerts are in corners. HDLG had been re-carpeted & repainted since the alleged atrocities so I find it hard to believe that there could have been cadaver(s) present so many years ago in all the areas Eddie alerted. Whilst I appreciate that scent can pool in a corner, I think it would have long since dissipated after 30 years where no body was ever located. Watching the Luz videos, Eddie did appear to head for corners a lot, almost totally ignoring everything in between & above his head height. Perhaps it's just the way he was trained....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2017, 02:46:13 AM
That is what I was thinking too that during training would they always hide the cadaverous item into a corner, for it is human nature too to hide things in a corner, so Eddie if he was suspicious (I heard Martin Grime say "Eddie's behaviour has changed") but not certain then he'd alert in a corner.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2017, 04:32:32 AM
For a cadaver dog doesn't actually have to find a cadaver just alert to the possibility of one being formerly in the region.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 15, 2017, 08:36:27 AM
I don't know of another video where we can see a different dog performing a similar exercise for comparison. All I know is it strikes a bit odd that virtually all the indoor alerts are in corners. HDLG had been re-carpeted & repainted since the alleged atrocities so I find it hard to believe that there could have been cadaver(s) present so many years ago in all the areas Eddie alerted. Whilst I appreciate that scent can pool in a corner, I think it would have long since dissipated after 30 years where no body was ever located. Watching the Luz videos, Eddie did appear to head for corners a lot, almost totally ignoring everything in between & above his head height. Perhaps it's just the way he was trained....
Corners are hardest to clean.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 09:30:00 AM
I don't know of another video where we can see a different dog performing a similar exercise for comparison. All I know is it strikes a bit odd that virtually all the indoor alerts are in corners. HDLG had been re-carpeted & repainted since the alleged atrocities so I find it hard to believe that there could have been cadaver(s) present so many years ago in all the areas Eddie alerted. Whilst I appreciate that scent can pool in a corner, I think it would have long since dissipated after 30 years where no body was ever located. Watching the Luz videos, Eddie did appear to head for corners a lot, almost totally ignoring everything in between & above his head height. Perhaps it's just the way he was trained....
No cadaver scent after 30 yrs where no physical remains are not present All those barks are false alerts That has to be true
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 09:35:17 AM
Perhaps you would care to provide a citation to back that statement up.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 09:39:42 AM
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
Any substance that was present through adsorption would be a physical presence that could be tested for However due to evaporation nothing would be left after 30 yrs Total bs
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 09:50:12 AM
Incorrect, as usual.
I referred to adsorption first.
What is adsorption ?
I will hope to see a cogent reply later.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 09:50:55 AM
Any substance that was present through adsorption would be a physical presence that could be tested for However due to evaporation nothing would be left after 30 yrs Total bs
Provide the evidence for your statement.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 09:54:43 AM
You have not answered the question What materials I asked that 10 or so posts ago That question ridicules everything you are saying The alerts here are total BS 30 years in an open area Repainted and recarpeted No physical remains BS Argue with yourself Until you clarify your claim
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 09:58:04 AM
You have been repeatedly asked for cites to back up your statements.
You have failed consistently to do that.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
You have been repeatedly asked for cites to back up your statements.
You have failed consistently to do that.
And you have failed to clarify to what materials the cadaver odour could adsorb to
There is only one study in a CLOSED building No studies in 30 yr old open building Simple chemistry would show that air movement would constantly dilute the remnant scent molecules until nothing was left I presume you understand simple chemistry
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 10:20:54 AM
So you are saying quite categorically that organic compounds cannot linger after death, after 30 years , in an open or closed environment ?
Yes or No ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 10:28:34 AM
#that post mentions lab information...there was none its pure bs
But there was and still is. The Portuguese CSI collected numerous samples from the apartment the day after Maddie disappeared. Not to mention the villa and the hire car.
Does anyone know if the clothing which the dog alerted to was returned to the suspects or retained?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 10:56:07 AM
If you have a bad smell in a room you open the window In 5 mins the smell has gone because most of the molecules causing the smell have disappeared out of the window That's what happens with cadaver odour Open windows and doors There would not be a molecule left after 30 years
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 11:07:47 AM
Still waiting for an answer to this dave.
' Still no citation.
..and we are not just talking about gases either.
Volatile compounds, and some not so volatile, will linger after death.
In regard to lingering dave, would you care to give a figure, to just how long organic remains after death could remain, and still be detectable ? '
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
Volatile compounds, and some not so volatile, will linger after death.
In regard to lingering dave, would you care to give a figure, to just how long organic remains after death could remain, and still be detectable ? '
if they are not volatile they will be physically present and forensically detectable organic remains
you asked the same question about two yrs ago obviously your memory isnt too good you are referring to human remains unearthed after being buried several thousand yeras ago
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 11:33:10 AM
if they are not volatile they will be physically present and forensically detectable organic remains
you asked the same question about two yrs ago obviously your memory isnt too good you are referring to human remains unearthed after being buried several thousand yeras ago
Provide the citation dave about 2 years ago.
It wasn't about human remains either.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
Compounds ,from which scent originates includes volatile and non volatile components.
If you don't understand the term 'adsorption' , then look it up.
the compounds from which the scent originate are long gone....thats why its called remnant scent if any componds were still present they could be collected and analysed try and understand this basic fact
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 12:50:32 PM
the compounds from which the scent originate are long gone....thats why its called remnant scent if any componds were still present they could be collected and analysed try and understand this basic fact
You haven't established that compounds from scents are long gone.
You're giving an opinion,and no citations.
So let's have a citation.
Actually , this is off topic.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 01:20:08 PM
You haven't established that compounds from scents are long gone.
You're giving an opinion,and no citations.
So let's have a citation.
Actually , this is off topic.
The whole point is that there is no science behind the alerts So a cite is impossible The dogs react to molecules in the air These molecules would dissipate in an open room None left after 30 years
yet the dog is excited and alerting total BS
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 02:21:10 PM
So all we have is your opinion and of no consequence whatsoever.
So Dave, for how long can organic remains be detected, volatile or otherwise, after death ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 02:46:02 PM
So all we have is your opinion and of no consequence whatsoever.
So Dave, for how long can organic remains be detected, volatile or otherwise, after death ?
We are not talking remains we are talking remnant scent and no remains
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 02:51:12 PM
As I said, compounds , volatile and otherwise can be adsorbed on the surface or within a material, depending of course, on whether it is porous or non-porous.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 02:53:14 PM
As I said, compounds , volatile and otherwise can be adsorbed on the surface or within a material, depending of course, on whether it is porous or non-porous.
So you would agree that those compounds could then be analysed and provide forensic confirmation
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2017, 03:55:22 PM
So you would agree that those compounds could then be analysed and provide forensic confirmation
I realise human noses aren't as good as a dog's sense of smell but it is still not nothing, so we need to do the initial testing on humans. Get at least two samples of flesh with obvious cadaver odour and test out the half life, then multiply that out and see if it is still possible to be present 30 years later.
The other test will be to see if a human can tell the difference in smell between different species of smelly cadaverous material. Blindfolded can we tell if it is rotten calf or rotten pig or even rotten human? Once we can do that then we would have an idea what chemicals it is a dog is detecting too.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 15, 2017, 10:24:16 PM
I realise human noses aren't as good as a dog's sense of smell but it is still not nothing, so we need to do the initial testing on humans. Get at least two samples of flesh with obvious cadaver odour and test out the half life, then multiply that out and see if it is still possible to be present 30 years later.
The other test will be to see if a human can tell the difference in smell between different species of smelly cadaverous material. Blindfolded can we tell if it is rotten calf or rotten pig or even rotten human? Once we can do that then we would have an idea what chemicals it is a dog is detecting too.
What is neede is reliable evidence And according to Grime the alerts are unreliable
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 15, 2017, 10:32:15 PM
I realise human noses aren't as good as a dog's sense of smell but it is still not nothing, so we need to do the initial testing on humans. Get at least two samples of flesh with obvious cadaver odour and test out the half life, then multiply that out and see if it is still possible to be present 30 years later.
The other test will be to see if a human can tell the difference in smell between different species of smelly cadaverous material. Blindfolded can we tell if it is rotten calf or rotten pig or even rotten human? Once we can do that then we would have an idea what chemicals it is a dog is detecting too.
Ugh
After you
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 10:36:12 PM
Dogs are used worldwide for a variety of services.
They perform extremely well.
If they didn't, they wouldn't be used.
That is a matter of fact.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 15, 2017, 10:39:15 PM
Oh, by the way Sadie, do you have any idea of the ages of some of the organic remains that have been found of once living organisms ?
I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 30 years. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 10:41:02 PM
Oh, by the way Sadie, do you have any idea of the ages of some of the organic remains that have been found of once living organisms ?
I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 30 years. 8(0(*
You still don't understand That refers to remains not remnant scent Tell me how long remnant scent lasts in an open building You can't because there are no studies Anyone reading your posts wil understand you are talking out of your backside According to Angelo that's an acceptable comment on this forum
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 15, 2017, 10:47:01 PM
Yes it's how Grime views them that's important He refers to them as unreliable
I'm going to ask for you to back that up with a cite please. I have never seen anyone use the word "unreliable" when talking about cadaver dogs other than Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 16, 2017, 07:44:11 AM
I'm going to ask for you to back that up with a cite please. I have never seen anyone use the word unreliable when talking about cadaver dogs other than Gerry McCann.
Grime says they have no evidential reliability So they are not reliable as evidence They are therefore unreliable as Gerry said
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 07:52:15 AM
Do you have a cite describing the alert as reliable
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm "What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 16, 2017, 10:34:33 AM
Haute de la Garenne it was a children's home - did the number of alerts by Eddie intensify the mystery of that place.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 16, 2017, 02:50:13 PM
There was just one place where Keela did check and she did not agree with Eddie, so unlikely tho it is, this could have been from a cadaver (or bacon). That place is the lowest, furthest part of the wardrobe …. and the confined area /corner with the wall and bed outside that part of the wardrobe
However,
1) Mistys video shows that Eddie gives loads of false alarms and especially it seems in corners. See how he barks in the confined recessed doorways to the rooms. These recesses are very similar in style to the area that he barked in the Mccann bedroom. Because of this, there is more than a slight chance that it was a false alarm
Quote
« Reply #426 on: January 14, 2017, 06:25:54 PM by misty A little reminder, Rob, about Eddie's tendency to bark (especially in corners)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 .
2) The man who previously lived in 5A died, we think in hospital. His clothes and belonging would have been sent back to 5A. Despite most probably having been laundered his pyjamas, to a keen nosed dog, would have reeked of cadaver odour. In such a small place where would they have been stored? The most likely place is in the bottom of the wardrobe, or tucked away in the corner formed by the bed, wall and wardrobe. Possibly hidden by the frill of the bedspread. We know that Cadaver odour transfers very easily and lasts for years We know that Eddie tends to bark in such corners .
So ….NO evidence there Rob, nor any intelligence that could be relied on
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2017, 03:16:52 PM
There was just one place where Keela did check and she did not agree with Eddie, so unlikely tho it is, this could have been from a cadaver (or bacon). That place is the lowest, furthest part of the wardrobe …. and the confined area /corner with the wall and bed outside that part of the wardrobe
However,
1) Mistys video shows that Eddie gives loads of false alarms and especially it seems in corners. See how he barks in the confined recessed doorways to the rooms. These recesses are very similar in style to the area that he barked in the Mccann bedroom. Because of this, there is more than a slight chance that it was a false alarm
2) The man who previously lived in 5A died, we think in hospital. His clothes and belonging would have been sent back to 5A. Despite most probably having been laundered his pyjamas, to a keen nosed dog, would have reeked of cadaver odour. In such a small place where would they have been stored? The most likely place is in the bottom of the wardrobe, or tucked away in the corner formed by the bed , wall and wardrobe. Possibly hidden by the frill of the bedspread. We know that Cadaver odour transfers very easily and lasts for years.
So ….NO evidence there Rob, nor any intelligence that could be relied on
Do we have the name of this man, or any cites for the assertion that his belongings were returned after having been in touch with his body a while after his death? Or is it just conjecture?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 16, 2017, 04:01:21 PM
Do we have the name of this man, or any cites for the assertion that his belongings were returned after having been in touch with his body a while after his death? Or is it just conjecture?
Grime also says no intelligence reliability
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 16, 2017, 04:37:51 PM
Do we have the name of this man, or any cites for the assertion that his belongings were returned after having been in touch with his body a while after his death? Or is it just conjecture?
I believe we went over this quite some time ago. Apartment 5A was bought by the McCanns, no relation to Kate and Gerry. The husband died, several years before 2007, IIRC. Again from memory, he died in the UK and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest his body was brought to Portugal. As to his clothes or transfer via his wife, that is speculation, I believe.
As I say, the details are in the forum somewhere, but good luck to anyone trying to search the forum for "McCann", "apartment 5A" and "death", or similar.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2017, 04:40:51 PM
I don't know what that has to do with the mythical dead man in 5A, but still. Immediately after the alerts in 5A a search warrant was obtained for other locations connected with the McCanns. Those locations were searched because of the alerts and for no other reason.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 16, 2017, 05:54:51 PM
I believe we went over this quite some time ago. Apartment 5A was bought by the McCanns, no relation to Kate and Gerry. The husband died, several years before 2007, IIRC. Again from memory, he died in the UK and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest his body was brought to Portugal. As to his clothes or transfer via his wife, that is speculation, I believe.
As I say, the details are in the forum somewhere, but good luck to anyone trying to search the forum for "McCann", "apartment 5A" and "death", or similar.
Michael McCann died in Liverpool sometime in July 2006. There is no record that cremated remains or anything which was with him at his time of death was returned to the apartment in Praia da Luz. However it is not outwith the bounds of possibility that the clothing Mrs McCann or other relatives were wearing at the time of his death were brought back and stored in in the master bedroom cupboard.
Whether that may have happened or not is immaterial as Misty's post showing Eddie barking in Haute de la Garenne is enough to negate any reliance on his performance elsewhere.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2017, 06:05:51 PM
Until such time it is replaced, the ruling document in this caper is the Archiving Document wherein the dog's alerts are recorded. Coming up to 10 years of Gene Keela and Eddie and Martin Grime slagging and guess what? The ruling document remains just that still recording the dog's alerts.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 16, 2017, 06:16:14 PM
Until such time it is replaced, the ruling document in this caper is the Archiving Document wherein the dog's alerts are recorded. Coming up to 10 years of Gene Keela and Eddie and Martin Grime slagging and guess what? The ruling document remains just that still recording the dog's alerts.
the slagging has nothing to do with the alerts being recorded
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2017, 06:22:49 PM
the slagging has nothing to do with the alerts being recorded
What ever it has to do with it has hardly been successful, as far as we can tell, in fashioning perception or causing either of the two police forces involved to make a pronouncement in overt criticism of the deployment of the K9's and their handler.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 16, 2017, 10:12:02 PM
What ever it has to do with it has hardly been successful, as far as we can tell, in fashioning perception or causing either of the two police forces involved to make a pronouncement in overt criticism of the deployment of the K9's and their handler.
I think its been very successful
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 16, 2017, 11:46:19 PM
Do we have the name of this man, or any cites for the assertion that his belongings were returned after having been in touch with his body a while after his death? Or is it just conjecture?
I assume his name was Milburn, because he was the father of Tasmins mother, I believe (from googling around).
On one of the ant* erm sceptics forums it surmises that Tasmins mother was a Milburn, but it questions whether she married Tasmins father who was a Silence.
In actuality, almost all reference to Tasmins grandfather seems to have been wiped off the internet ... Why?
If you google, a portion of it comes up
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.155;wap2 ... and roll down to the later posts you will see Serendipities post and within that there is a quote by John. Johns post is a very good post . See below. This confirms the connection between Tasmin, her grandfather and the likelyhood that his clothes and possibly even his remains were brought back to the apartment.
Quote
Serendipity:
Quote
Quote from: John on March 10, 2014, 09:35:52 AM ---I find it quite remarkable how quickly some are to poo poo genuine facts in preference to hearsay comments and half truths.
It is inconceivable that Tasmin mixed up the apartments. Apartment 5a is unique in that it is the end apartment with its own private entrance right onto the main road. I have no doubt Tasmin knew what she was talking about, she lived there. Tasmin was a superb witness and for that reason it was expected that attempts would be made to discredit her. That's how the myth creators work.
As for the connection between the death of the grandfather and Eddie's alerts are concerned there is every reason to believe that there is such a connection if Eddie was as good as Martin Grime claimed. There is certainly as much reason to believe that there is a connection to Tasmin's grandfather as there is to the theory that Madeleine died in the apartment. At least we know for sure the grandfather died and there is every reason to suspect that at least some of his clothing was brought back to the apartment by his wife.
Was his remains brought back to the apartment and waked?
--- End quote ---
Ok, how's about you do what I did and pick up the phone and call Op Grange Gold Team and ask the question re Tasmin Milburn's silence in relation to where her grandparents did or did not live. You won't like the answer though :)
Maybe you could also ask if Tasmins grandfather pyjamas and belongings were brought back to 5A ... and his remains
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 12:09:00 AM
I know that you have a theory that you are very keen to prove, Rob. I believe this proof depends on the existence of Cadaver odour in the flat.
However there is no real evidence nor intelligence of any dead body there.
For your theory to be valid, it must allow all the facts/ criteria that we know ... without fudging any.
You work so hard and I admire your dedications BUT.... .... Time to reassess and rethink your theory maybe?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 12:38:32 AM
I know that you have a theory that you are very keen to prove, Rob. I believe this proof depends on the existence of Cadaver odour in the flat.
However there is no real evidence nor intelligence of any dead body there.
For your theory to be valid, it must allow all the facts/ criteria that we know ... without fudging any.
You work so hard and I admire your dedications BUT.... .... Time to reassess and rethink your theory maybe?
If John Hill's statement aligned with Silvia's statement and those two aligned with Emma Knights' statement maybe I would think I'm on the wrong track, but when there are 3 management statements that don't make sense, when you try and link them and all start after 10:30 that night , I just keep thinking I'm still on target. Cadaver odour doesn't come with a time signature (other that the time it takes to get the initial level up i.e. 1.25 hours as a minimum. Thereafter you can't tell if the cadaver was dead for 2 hours or 20 hours you are going to have cadaver odour. At 20 hours though even a human's badly designed nose should be able to pick it up.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 10:17:41 AM
What are we to make of the fact that at Haut de la Garenne, when Grime applied for the position there, he showed the video of Eddie barking his head off at the Renault Scenic at Praia da Luz?
Is it not scandalous that Grime was given that video for private and promotional purposes?
And does it not wreak to high heaven that for that inspection, alone, of them all at Praia da Luz, Grime wore the white anti cross-contamination overalls of his trade?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2017, 10:26:29 AM
What are we to make of the fact that at Haut de la Garenne, when Grime applied for the position there, he showed the video of Eddie barking his head off at the Renault Scenic at Praia da Luz?
Is it not scandalous that Grime was given that video for private and promotional purposes?
And does it not wreak to high heaven that for that inspection, alone, of them all at Praia da Luz, Grime wore the white anti cross-contamination overalls of his trade?
It was rather good. Eddie picking up cadaver odour through the seal of the car door. A very successful find.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2017, 10:39:29 AM
It's a measure of Grime's expertise and the regard in which he is held that despite the fuss attached to his work in PdL and Jersey he remains a sought after and valued expert in his field. Those who know about these things continue to employ him because his dogs are among the best.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 10:40:52 AM
It's a measure of Grime's expertise and the regard in which he is held that despite the fuss attached to his work in PdL and Jersey he remains a sought after and valued expert in his field. Those who know about these things continue to employ him because his dogs are among the best.
Does he?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2017, 11:56:05 AM
The alerts are intelligence.
We knew from Bob Small that the responses of specialist dogs were, or ought to be, classed as intelligence, not evidence [Madeleine]
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.
1) Having seen mistys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 which shows Eddie mis-alerting in multiple places like the area where he alerted in 5A, no reasonable person could think that the one in 5A was bona fide. It would not stand up in Court.
2) Also the problem with Tasmins deceased Grandpa, who lived in that apartment and his cremated remains/ clothes being brought back from hospital raises another big question mark about the validity of this so called alert. This may have been sorted by SY, but we have no means of finding out whether they were brought back and whether they were stored in / by that wardrobe /edge of the bed. But it seems likely that a widow would like her hubbies personal effects ... and his ashes back
And the most likely storage place are (i) in that wardrobe at the bottom left hand end (if she just wanted to keep them)
Or, if she wanted comfort from them, (ii) by the top of the bed where she could feel he was near her.
No myths there, Slarti
ETA: Now please excuse me, I must get on.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 12:53:09 PM
In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.
1) Having seen mistys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 which shows Eddie mis-alerting in multiple places like the area where he alerted in 5A, no reasonable person could think that the one in 5A was bona fide. It would not stand up in Court.
2) Also the problem with Tasmins deceased Grandpa, who lived in that apartment and his cremated remains/ clothes being brought back from hospital raises another big question mark about the validity of this so called alert. This may have been sorted by SY, but we have no means of finding out whether they were brought back and whether they were stored in / by that wardrobe /edge of the bed. But it seems likely that a widow would like her hubbies personal effects ... and his ashes back
And the most likely storage place are (i) in that wardrobe at the bottom left hand end (if she just wanted to keep them)
Or, if she wanted comfort from them, (ii) by the top of the bed where she could feel he was near her.
No myths there, Slarti
ETA: Now please excuse me, I must get on.
'In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.'
You can of course provide proof for that statement ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 01:15:57 PM
If the alerts had any reliability they would be accepted as evidence They simply have no reliability confirmed by Grime
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 17, 2017, 01:26:06 PM
'In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.'
You can of course provide proof for that statement ?
Oh,wake up at the back purrleaze stephen.
You obviously haven't been reading all Grimes and Harrisons comments/ statements as kindly posted (mainly) by Ferryman
All Eddies alerts MUST be checked by Keela, if not they mean nothing except the likelyhood is old blood from a living person
If Keela checks, but also alerts, then that is proof that they are both smelling the same thing. Keela only alerts to blood from a living person ... so they are both alerting to the blood from a living person.
In the case of 5A, they either both alerted to dried blood or Keela did not check ... with the exception of in / close to the wardrobe / bedhead in the main bedroom.
Because of Eddies erratic behaviour in mistys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 ... which shows Eddie mis-alerting in multiple places like the area where he alerted in 5A, (a semi-enclosed place like the wardrobe / bed space in 5A), no reasonable person could think that the one in 5A was bona fide. It would not stand up in Court.
Also the death of Mr ?Milburn, Tasmins Grandpa, raises another big question mark about the validity of this so called alert. What happened to his clothes, normally returned to the widow ... and his ashes? If just kept, even if washed and for a short time, they would leave a strong odour of cadaver.
Where would they have been kept in a small flat?
Just stored, the most likely out of the way place is in the bottom of the furthest wardrobe .... where Eddie alerted
If kept as a sentimental and comfort thing, then the most likely place is as close to Mrs Milburn as she lay in bed as possible .... and that would be on the floor or on the table close to the wall as possible, so that she could reach out and touch them if she felt the need / the wish to do so.
There is just no substance to any cadaver having been in that flat. Nothing that could even have been presented to Court because when carefully analysed the whole accusation is empty ... or, in the bedroom case, so dicey that it would be risible in a Court case
Amaral got it wrong. Seems he didn't understand it. The only other conclusion is that he was so keen to nail Kate and Gerry that he pretended, but let's NOT go there ... cos we have no proof, or indicators, do we?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 02:21:21 PM
In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.
1) Having seen mistys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 which shows Eddie mis-alerting in multiple places like the area where he alerted in 5A, no reasonable person could think that the one in 5A was bona fide. It would not stand up in Court.
2) Also the problem with Tasmins deceased Grandpa, who lived in that apartment and his cremated remains/ clothes being brought back from hospital raises another big question mark about the validity of this so called alert. This may have been sorted by SY, but we have no means of finding out whether they were brought back and whether they were stored in / by that wardrobe /edge of the bed. But it seems likely that a widow would like her hubbies personal effects ... and his ashes back
And the most likely storage place are (i) in that wardrobe at the bottom left hand end (if she just wanted to keep them)
Or, if she wanted comfort from them, (ii) by the top of the bed where she could feel he was near her.
No myths there, Slarti
ETA: Now please excuse me, I must get on.
This quote is stuffed with myths.
From an earlier discussion of the dog alerts - "From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -
'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.' http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html"
mccannfiles stopped working in Oct 2016, so if anyone wants to look at that, use the Wayback Machine, assuming it works for this .com.
Michael McCann died in Liverpool in July 2006. To attribute death scent to his death, you need to speculate about someone bringing said death scent to Luz.
The apartment was sold in 2001/2002, and Tasmin's grandmother supposedly owned it prior to that. As Tasmin would have been aged around 6 in 2001/2002, the accuracy of her memory of that time is open to question. The same thread on this forum has raised the suggestion that Tasmin's grandmother was in apartment 5B. I have no information about when 5B was sold prior to May 2007, therefore I shall not speculate on how accurate her memory of that might be.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 03:10:52 PM
You obviously haven't been reading all Grimes and Harrisons comments/ statements as kindly posted (mainly) by Ferryman
All Eddies alerts MUST be checked by Keela, if not they mean nothing except the likelyhood is old blood from a living person
If Keela checks, but also alerts, then that is proof that they are both smelling the same thing. Keela only alerts to blood from a living person ... so they are both alerting to the blood from a living person.
In the case of 5A, they either both alerted to dried blood or Keela did not check ... with the exception of in / close to the wardrobe / bedhead in the main bedroom.
Because of Eddies erratic behaviour in mistys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48 ... which shows Eddie mis-alerting in multiple places like the area where he alerted in 5A, (a semi-enclosed place like the wardrobe / bed space in 5A), no reasonable person could think that the one in 5A was bona fide. It would not stand up in Court.
Also the death of Mr ?Milburn, Tasmins Grandpa, raises another big question mark about the validity of this so called alert. What happened to his clothes, normally returned to the widow ... and his ashes? If just kept, even if washed and for a short time, they would leave a strong odour of cadaver.
Where would they have been kept in a small flat?
Just stored, the most likely out of the way place is in the bottom of the furthest wardrobe .... where Eddie alerted
If kept as a sentimental and comfort thing, then the most likely place is as close to Mrs Milburn as she lay in bed as possible .... and that would be on the floor or on the table close to the wall as possible, so that she could reach out and touch them if she felt the need / the wish to do so.
There is just no substance to any cadaver having been in that flat. Nothing that could even have been presented to Court because when carefully analysed the whole accusation is empty ... or, in the bedroom case, so dicey that it would be risible in a Court case
Amaral got it wrong. Seems he didn't understand it. The only other conclusion is that he was so keen to nail Kate and Gerry that he pretended, but let's NOT go there ... cos we have no proof, or indicators, do we?
Keela was trained to react to the presence of blood Sadie.
Yes or No ?
...and Keela could not know the difference whether the blood came from a living or non living source ?
Yes or No ?
By the way Sadie, any blood Keela alerted to, would have been in a state of decomposition. Now isn't that ironic, given your earlier comment.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 03:34:04 PM
From an earlier discussion of the dog alerts - "From Ruth McCann - current owner of 5a -
'The apartment is owned by Ruth Margaret McCann, who is unrelated to the McCanns according to family spokesperson Clarence Mitchell.
The apartment A, number 5, locate at Rua Dr. Agostinho da Silva, Montes da Luz Urbanization, Praia da luz, is registered with the number 3666.
In 2001 the house was bought by a kind of society belonging to Daniel John Aldred, his daughter Donna Michelle Aldred (from his first marriage), Michael William McCann and his wife, Ruth Margaret McCann.
Michael McCann born in Devonport, Plymouth was a widower when he married Margaret Ruth Pittaway, 53, who was also widowed in 1987.
In 2005, Michael and Ruth bought the part of the Aldred couple giving each of them 50% of the apartment.
Later in July 2006 Michael McCann died in Liverpool and in November of the same year Ruth McCann inherited his part becoming the only proprietor.' http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html"
mccannfiles stopped working in Oct 2016, so if anyone wants to look at that, use the Wayback Machine, assuming it works for this .com.
Michael McCann died in Liverpool in July 2006. To attribute death scent to his death, you need to speculate about someone bringing said death scent to Luz.
The apartment was sold in 2001/2002, and Tasmin's grandmother supposedly owned it prior to that. As Tasmin would have been aged around 6 in 2001/2002, the accuracy of her memory of that time is open to question. The same thread on this forum has raised the suggestion that Tasmin's grandmother was in apartment 5B. I have no information about when 5B was sold prior to May 2007, therefore I shall not speculate on how accurate her memory of that might be.
Mistake number 1. Yours! I have not speculated that it was the death of Michael Mccann that Eddie just may have alerted to. I believe that it is more likely that it was the death of Tasmins grandfather, who as her Mums maiden name was Milburn, is likely to have been a Mr Milburn, who died in Portugal. Although what this snippet shows us is that there were two men whose ashes might, quite probably, have been brought back to 5A. Cadaver odour lasts for decades we are told.
Mistake number 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY
In order to see a number of ordinary people who observed 5A in the days preceding Madeleine vanishing , I suggest that you watch from 1.30. until about 4.30. Tasmin appears @ about 2.30
Referring to the man peering over the wall at the Mccann apartment she clearly says "my grandparents used to live there"
So straight from the horses mouth we get it that her Grandparents lived at 5A. I have no idea whether they owned it or whether they long term rented it from the (other) Mccanns
mistake number 3 (IMO)
Tasmin Milburn Silence is a clear thinking, observant and intelligent girl. Even if her Grandpa died in 2001 and she was only six, my bet is that she would have had pretty clear reciollection of where they lived and of her grandparents. It was said that at one time that she and her mother rented the apartment next door to 5A, but please dont ask me to prove that. Most stuff seems to have been wiped off the internet.
Remember, unless you know otherwise, we dont know when her grandparents lived in 5A, if they possibly rented
May I repectfully point out that the quote you give us has no origin address apart from this forum !! and no posters name !! Can you give us those details please SIL ?
So to sum up, the so called facts in your post SIL are very woolley, with nobodies name attached, let alone a trustworthy document.
Do you honestly think that Tasmin would have forgotten where her grandparents lived when she spent so much time with them? ... and she passed by each day, it seems.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 17, 2017, 03:57:36 PM
Keela was trained to react to the presence of blood Sadie.
Yes or No ?
...and Keela could not know the difference whether the blood cane from a living or non living source ?
Yes or No ?
Keela was trained to alert only to the blood from a living person. The odour of the blood from a dead person would NOT smell the same, it would smell of death. Keela was NOT trained to alert to this, because she was not a Cadaver dog.
The two dogs were used together because they complimented each other. Eddie unfortunately was double trained and alerted to living blood and the scent of death. Keela alerted to ONLY the scent of living blood (dessicated).
When Eddie alerted it could have been to Living blood (dessicated) or it could have been to the odour of a dead body. To sort out whether he was alerting to dead body odour, or the blood from a living person, it was necessary for Keela to sniff the odour too. If she alerted as well, then it was living blood. If she kept quiet at the same odour, then it was either a sign that it could be cadaveresent odour ... or it could be pig ... or it could be a false alarm from an over excited dog .... as in mistys video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
As you can see, Eddie kept alerting to alcoves/ corners very reminiscent of the area between the wardrobe, the wall and the bed in The Mccann bedroom.
I am afraid that the lovely dog Eddie, whilst very good in most ways, was too erratic and unreliable in others. The courts upon seeing that video would have laughed themselves silly with scorn.
Furthermore, I believe that you, stephen, are intelligent enough to understand that. Time you accepted it TBH.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 04:20:38 PM
Keela was trained to alert only to the blood from a living person. The odour of the blood from a dead person would NOT smell the same, it would smell of death. Keela was NOT trained to alert to this, because she was not a Cadaver dog.
The two dogs were used together because they complimented each other. Eddie unfortunately was double trained and alerted to living blood and the scent of death. Keela alerted to ONLY the scent of living blood (dessicated).
When Eddie alerted it could have been to Living blood (dessicated) or it could have been to the odour of a dead body. To sort out whether he was alerting to dead body odour, or the blood from a living person, it was necessary for Keela to sniff the odour too. If she alerted as well, then it was living blood. If she kept quiet at the same odour, then it was either a sign that it could be cadaveresent odour ... or it could be pig ... or it could be a false alarm from an over excited dog .... as in mistys video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoDAqUTl48
As you can see, Eddie kept alerting to alcoves/ corners very reminiscent of the area between the wardrobe, the wall and the bed in The Mccann bedroom.
I am afraid that the lovely dog Eddie, whilst very good in most ways, was too erratic and unreliable in others. The courts upon seeing that video would have laughed themselves silly with scorn.
Furthermore, I believe that you, stephen, are intelligent enough to understand that. Time you accepted it TBH.
I have read through some of the reports
Now can provide a citation from the source that Keels could only detect blood from a living individual ?
Your opinion does not count in that.
Also, 'blood from living or dead would not smell the same ?
Please qualify that statement. As it is , it is meaningless.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 17, 2017, 05:28:11 PM
Mistake number 1. Yours! I have not speculated that it was the death of Michael Mccann that Eddie just may have alerted to. I believe that it is more likely that it was the death of Tasmins grandfather, who as her Mums maiden name was Milburn, is likely to have been a Mr Milburn, who died in Portugal. Although Cadaver odour lasts for decades we are told.
Mistake number 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHYwhat this snippet shows us is that there were two men whose ashes might, quite probably, have been brought back to 5A.
In order to see a number of ordinary people who observed 5A in the days preceding Madeleine vanishing , I suggest that you watch from 1.30. until about 4.30. Tasmin appears @ about 2.30
Referring to the man peering over the wall at the Mccann apartment she clearly says "my grandparents used to live there"
So straight from the horses mouth we get it that her Grandparents lived at 5A. I have no idea whether they owned it or whether they long term rented it from the (other) Mccanns
mistake number 3 (IMO)
Tasmin Milburn Silence is a clear thinking, observant and intelligent girl. Even if her Grandpa died in 2001 and she was only six, my bet is that she would have had pretty clear reciollection of where they lived and of her grandparents. It was said that at one time that she and her mother rented the apartment next door to 5A, but please dont ask me to prove that. Most stuff seems to have been wiped off the internet.
Remember, unless you know otherwise, we dont know when her grandparents lived in 5A, if they possibly rented
May I repectfully point out that the quote you give us has no origin address apart from this forum !! and no posters name !! Can you give us those details please SIL ?
So to sum up, the so called facts in your post SIL are very woolley, with nobodies name attached, let alone a trustworthy document.
Do you honestly think that Tasmin would have forgotten where her grandparents lived when she spent so much time with them? ... and she passed by each day, it seems.
"what this snippet shows us is that there were two men whose ashes might, quite probably, have been brought back to 5A." You are speculating that two men who had died were cremated, and that ashes or other belongings were then transported to Portugal. If you have no evidence of this, it pure speculation, nothing more.
"Tasmin Milburn Silence is a clear thinking, observant and intelligent girl." You are speculating that a 6 year old child has an accurate memory when aged 12, and on her personal characteristics. That is pure speculation, nothing more.
The Cutting Edge documentary has some interesting things in it which are relevant to the case. It also has several unsupported claims, and some things which are contrary to witness statements. In the depiction of the Smith sighting, the entire group of 9 are in one blob. The 3 Smith statements say otherwise. Edgar says the man was acting unusually, including a swerve. The 3 statements contradict this.
I wondered where Robbity got his 'proof' that Gerry switched on the light during his check. It would appear it came from this documentary.
You appear to be asking me to provide a cite from a site that I have clearly explained expired in October 2016. I have no intention of wasting my time on that. The post got past the moderation team of the time (2014).
If you have any evidence that someone either died in 5A, or that belongings of deceased people (cremated or otherwise) were brought into 5A, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support this. In the absence of such evidence, you are merely speculating.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 17, 2017, 06:42:16 PM
"what this snippet shows us is that there were two men whose ashes might, quite probably, have been brought back to 5A." You are speculating that two men who had died were cremated, and that ashes or other belongings were then transported to Portugal. If you have no evidence of this, it pure speculation, nothing more.
"Tasmin Milburn Silence is a clear thinking, observant and intelligent girl." You are speculating that a 6 year old child has an accurate memory when aged 12, and on her personal characteristics. That is pure speculation, nothing more.
The Cutting Edge documentary has some interesting things in it which are relevant to the case. It also has several unsupported claims, and some things which are contrary to witness statements. In the depiction of the Smith sighting, the entire group of 9 are in one blob. The 3 Smith statements say otherwise. Edgar says the man was acting unusually, including a swerve. The 3 statements contradict this.
I wondered where Robbity got his 'proof' that Gerry switched on the light during his check. It would appear it came from this documentary.
You appear to be asking me to provide a cite from a site that I have clearly explained expired in October 2016. I have no intention of wasting my time on that. The post got past the moderation team of the time (2014).
If you have any evidence that someone either died in 5A, or that belongings of deceased people (cremated or otherwise) were brought into 5A, the onus is on you to provide the evidence to support this. In the absence of such evidence, you are merely speculating.
No-one had to die in apartment 5A ~ nor was it necessary for their belongings to be returned to 5A for there to be a transference of the scent of a dead person.
It is documented that individuals only have to be in the same room as a deceased person for the transference to affect the clothing being worn.
No-one had to die in apartment 5A ~ nor was it necessary for their belongings to be returned to 5A for there to be a transference of the scent of a dead person.
It is documented that individuals only have to be in the same room as a deceased person for the transference to affect the clothing being worn.
No-one had to die in apartment 5A ~ nor was it necessary for their belongings to be returned to 5A for there to be a transference of the scent of a dead person.
It is documented that individuals only have to be in the same room as a deceased person for the transference to affect the clothing being worn.
I read the first 3 or 4 posts on the link and then gave up on it.
People can supposedly smell death on those about to die, or nope, this idea is nonsense.
One cannot get smell of death removed from oneself or one's clothing, or nope, this idea is nonsense because you can supposedly do both.
The issue I am interested in is the alerts in 5A. And can they be ascribed to a previous occupant, now dead. By whatever means.
AFAIK, the Ocean Club complex was built around 1982. I don't know if that is designed, built or the selling of apartments, but it is not relevant here.
The point is the blocks searched by the dogs were roughly 25 years old in 2007.
I am not going to supply evidence as to who, precisely, purchased and occupied those blocks over 25 years. Let alone who rented them.
The general profile of owner-renters appears to be retired, ex-pats. People who over a period of 25 years would have a tendency to die.
This returns us to the well known challenge of explaining why alerts were recorded in 5A, and 27 Rua Das Flores, but not in the other 25 year old apartments. We have deceased people a-plenty, but not alerts.
People connected to 5A died. The dogs alerted. Am I expected to believe this is due to contamination?
Since the dogs did not alert elsewhere in block 5 or block 4, am I expected to believe that no one associated with these died before the doggy searches?
My post was about the total absence of evidence for 'cremations' and 'artefacts returned to 5A'. Am I expected to believe this? And also believe the properties searched in block 5 and block 4 were clear of such contamination? After 25 years?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 07:48:51 PM
I read the first 3 or 4 posts on the link and then gave up on it.
People can supposedly smell death on those about to die, or nope, this idea is nonsense.
One cannot get smell of death removed from oneself or one's clothing, or nope, this idea is nonsense because you can supposedly do both.
The issue I am interested in is the alerts in 5A. And can they be ascribed to a previous occupant, now dead. By whatever means.
AFAIK, the Ocean Club complex was built around 1982. I don't know if that is designed, built or the selling of apartments, but it is not relevant here.
The point is the blocks searched by the dogs were roughly 25 years old in 2007.
I am not going to supply evidence as to who, precisely, purchased and occupied those blocks over 25 years. Let alone who rented them.
The general profile of owner-renters appears to be retired, ex-pats. People who over a period of 25 years would have a tendency to die.
This returns us to the well known challenge of explaining why alerts were recorded in 5A, and 27 Rua Das Flores, but not in the other 25 year old apartments. We have deceased people a-plenty, but not alerts.
People connected to 5A died. The dogs alerted. Am I expected to believe this is due to contamination?
Since the dogs did not alert elsewhere in block 5 or block 4, am I expected to believe that no one associated with these died before the doggy searches?
My post was about the total absence of evidence for 'cremations' and 'artefacts returned to 5A'. Am I expected to believe this? And also believe the properties searched in block 5 and block 4 were clear of such contamination? After 25 years?
It is known in some circles as "PdL Bubble Syndrome". The treatment for those who have been in contact with a carrier is m3 of NaCl
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 17, 2017, 09:15:51 PM
May be alive may be dead So the alerts tell us nothing
So you accept the dogs alerted,what is still be to determined is what they alerted to,seeing as the dogs were trained in certain discipline's it can't be too hard to work it out,once that is done the who remains the mystery.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 09:43:36 PM
So you accept the dogs alerted,what is still be to determined is what they alerted to,seeing as the dogs were trained in certain discipline's it can't be too hard to work it out,once that is done the who remains the mystery.
I accept Grime said the dogs alerted I don't accept they did
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
So you accept the dogs alerted,what is still be to determined is what they alerted to,seeing as the dogs were trained in certain discipline's it can't be too hard to work it out,once that is done the who remains the mystery.
The alerts are not deemed to be a reliable indication of anything According to Grime Harrison And an interesting article posted about the dogs exploits in jersey If you have a cite to show the alerts are a confirmation of cadaver odour please post
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 17, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
The alerts are not deemed to be a reliable indication of anything According to Grime Harrison And an interesting article posted about the dogs exploits in jersey If you have a cite to show the alerts are a confirmation of cadaver odour please post
The dogs were trained in specific disciplines were they not,the dogs alerted,whats there to cite,its all on film.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 17, 2017, 10:22:37 PM
'In 5A, with the exception of the alert near the wardrobes, Keela proved that all the other alerts by Eddie were to blood from a living person.'
You can of course provide proof for that statement ?
Cant you be bothered to read my posts or the posts by ferryman, stephen ? It has all been proved many times before with documentation, but just for you:
It was shown, with cites, in a previous thread, probably by ferryman that Keelas input was essential to check out Eddies alerts ... and to decide whether Eddie was alerting to blood (Edited) or alerting to cadaver odour.
Despite all the claimed alerts to cadaver odour in 5A, the truth is that in only one place [in the wardrobe, or just outside it by the head of the bed], was there anything that could have been cadaver odour.
However, likewise (i) it could have been dead pig cadaver odour, because Eddie was trained on pig. Once trained a dog is always going to alert to the scent of dead pig, even if it is cooked pork or bacon. He cannot be detrained.
Or it could have been that (ii) Eddie was having an erratic moment and barked for the sake of it, See mistys video.
I have proved this over and over on this very thread. Do please read my posts properly in future, stephen
Oh, I nearly forgot, forensic evidence was necessary to back up any possible alerts. There was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE that backed them
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 12:06:19 AM
Cant you be bothered to read my posts or the posts by ferryman, stephen ? It has all been proved many times before with documentation, but just for you:
It was shown, with cites, in a previous thread, probably by ferryman that Keelas input was essential to check out Eddies alerts ... and to decide whether Eddie was alerting to blood from a living person or alerting to cadaver odour.
Despite all the claimed alerts to cadaver odour in 5A, the truth is that in only one place [in the wardrobe, or just outside it by the head of the bed], was there anything that could have been cadaver odour.
However, likewise (i) it could have been dead pig cadaver odour, because Eddie was trained on pig. Once trained a dog is always going to alert to the scent of dead pig, even if it is cooked pork or bacon. He cannot be detrained.
Or it could have been that (ii) Eddie was having an erratic moment and barked for the sake of it, See mistys video.
I have proved this over and over on this very thread. Do please read my posts properly in future, stephen
Oh, I nearly forgot, forensic evidence was necessary to back up any possible alerts. There was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE that backed them
Yet again Sadie, provide evidence that Keela was trained to distinguish between blood from a living or non living source.
I await a logical answer.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 18, 2017, 12:10:01 AM
I think I just did. She is right that Keela was used to rule the blood element out of Eddie's alerts, though, meaning the alert beside the wardrobe has no forensic corroboration. There is no test for adsorption of odour film.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 18, 2017, 01:02:49 AM
Keela was trained to alert to dried blood, whether from the living or deceased.
Thank you misty. Seems that I was wrong on that one.
My apologies stephen
BUT as misty says, Keela was necessary because she was used to rule iout the blood element of Eddies alerts.
Despite this, we have the likelyhood that the deceased Grandpas pyjamas and ashes would have been brought home to 5A and the most suitable places for storing them would have been in the part which is least used i.e. bottom of the wardrobe away from the bedroom door, ... or if they gave comfort to the widow, as close to where she lay in bed as possible, where she could touch them
But having seen Eddies erratic performance in mistys video, no Court could consider his barking up that corner as any pointer at all.
And NO forensics, which were absolutely necessary to confirm Eddies alert. Was this because there was nothing there to take for forensics ?
Time to re-assess stephen. You are intelligent, but you are burying your head in the sand over this one.
Nigh Night
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 01:04:33 AM
Thank you misty. Seems that I was wrong on that one.
My apologies stephen
BUT as misty says, Keela was necessary because she was used to rule iout the blood element of Eddies alerts.
Despite this, we have the likelyhood that the deceased Grandpas pyjamas and ashes would have been brought home to 5A and the most suitable places for storing them would have been in the part which is least used i.e. bottom of the wardrobe away from the bedroom door, ... or if they gave comfort to the widow, as close to where she lay in bed as possible, where she could touch them
But having seen Eddies erratic petrformance in mistys video, no Court could consider his barking up that corner as any pointer at all.
And NO forensics, which were absolutely necessary to confirm Eddies alert. Was this because there was nothing there to take for forensics ?
Time to re-assess stephen. You are intelligent but you are burying your head in the sand over this one.
Nigh Night
Apology accepted.
However, we will have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 18, 2017, 07:49:12 AM
Cant you be bothered to read my posts or the posts by ferryman, stephen ? It has all been proved many times before with documentation, but just for you:
It was shown, with cites, in a previous thread, probably by ferryman that Keelas input was essential to check out Eddies alerts ... and to decide whether Eddie was alerting to blood (Edited) or alerting to cadaver odour.
Despite all the claimed alerts to cadaver odour in 5A, the truth is that in only one place [in the wardrobe, or just outside it by the head of the bed], was there anything that could have been cadaver odour.
However, likewise (i) it could have been dead pig cadaver odour, because Eddie was trained on pig. Once trained a dog is always going to alert to the scent of dead pig, even if it is cooked pork or bacon. He cannot be detrained.
Or it could have been that (ii) Eddie was having an erratic moment and barked for the sake of it, See mistys video.
I have proved this over and over on this very thread. Do please read my posts properly in future, stephen
Oh, I nearly forgot, forensic evidence was necessary to back up any possible alerts. There was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE that backed them
Not cooked pork or bacon either, misty?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 07:56:23 AM
The dogs were trained in specific disciplines were they not,the dogs alerted,whats there to cite,its all on film.
The film is heavily edited If the alerts were reliable then why doesn't Grime say so Because they are not reliable They have never been properly independently tested Where is the evidence that every alert is reliable
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 07:59:29 AM
In the rogs Grime is asked twice if the alerts are confirmation of the alerts He dodges the question on both occasions
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 08:04:43 AM
In the rogs Grime is asked twice if the alerts are confirmation of the alerts He dodges the question on both occasions
?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 08:39:12 AM
' My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. '
' The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.'
' The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication. '
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7855.msg376626#msg376626 In which document, was it this one? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
"'In order to establish the accuracy of the dogs' performance with respect to the alerts given when recognizing blood and a body, to what extent are these indications viable in this particular case'' The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation. In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations. It is the investigators' responsibility to apply the results of the forensic analysis to the suspects, witnesses and crime scenes."
That doesn't even make sense. [When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation.]
"Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. "
"'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
'With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver' OR Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred'' There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog."
Both those were ruses performed by the PJ no wonder he couldn't give an answer.
"'Can the dog mix up traces of human odours with others that are non-human'' I cannot comment on what the dogs think. However, from a forensic point of view and from confirmations of scientific testimonies, the dogs appear to be extremely exact. But, forensic confirmation is required in all cases so as to be included as proof. The CSI dog is trained using only human blood. And using a wide spectrum of donors to ensure that the dog does not individualize them."
Every answer is spot on as far as I understand it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
Cant you be bothered to read my posts or the posts by ferryman, stephen ? It has all been proved many times before with documentation, but just for you:
It was shown, with cites, in a previous thread, probably by ferryman that Keelas input was essential to check out Eddies alerts ... and to decide whether Eddie was alerting to blood (Edited) or alerting to cadaver odour.
Despite all the claimed alerts to cadaver odour in 5A, the truth is that in only one place [in the wardrobe, or just outside it by the head of the bed], was there anything that could have been cadaver odour.
However, likewise (i) it could have been dead pig cadaver odour, because Eddie was trained on pig. Once trained a dog is always going to alert to the scent of dead pig, even if it is cooked pork or bacon. He cannot be detrained.
Or it could have been that (ii) Eddie was having an erratic moment and barked for the sake of it, See mistys video.
I have proved this over and over on this very thread. Do please read my posts properly in future, stephen
Oh, I nearly forgot, forensic evidence was necessary to back up any possible alerts. There was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE that backed them
Why do you persist in saying that Eddie would alert to cooked meats Sadie? It's clearly untrue and just causes confusion. Unless that's the intention, of course?
The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 09:04:34 AM
A reminder.
No alerts were made to any other materials/properties other than relating to the McCann's.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 09:07:14 AM
' My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. '
' The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.'
' The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces. The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific compounds' and mixes. Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication. '
No alerts were made to any other materials/properties other than relating to the McCann's.
You made an error again Grime said "He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects." So even though what you said is true in that all the alerts are on the McCann associated properties "it does not identify suspects".
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 09:11:53 AM
you made an error again Grime said "He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. " So even though what you said all the alerts are on the McCann associated property "it does not identify suspects".
That is a rather stupid thing to say Rob.
I was quoting from Grime's statements.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 09:14:25 AM
So you accept the dogs alerted,what is still be to determined is what they alerted to,seeing as the dogs were trained in certain discipline's it can't be too hard to work it out,once that is done the who remains the mystery.
At Haut de la Garenne, the dogs alerted all over the place, including to a coconut ....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 09:39:31 AM
At Haut de la Garenne, the dogs alerted all over the place, including to a coconut ....
Has all the forensic investigation finished at Haut de la Garenne? When I saw the cellars a cadaver in the cellars could contaminate the entire underfloor area and hence result in multiple alerts.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on January 18, 2017, 09:56:52 AM
Why do you persist in saying that Eddie would alert to cooked meats Sadie? It's clearly untrue and just causes confusion. Unless that's the intention, of course?
The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat eating bacon sandwiches. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Quote from M. Grime
> In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
End quote.
Surely the claim is that even though the foodstuff was masked with petrol and then burnt to a cinder - an alert for cadaver odour still occurred. Therefore Eddie alerted - even though it was not to a cadaver.
If that's not an alert to the residue of cooked foodstuff i.e. pork - then what is it an alert to? Just wondering...
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 10:00:43 AM
Has all the forensic investigation finished at Haut de la Garenne? When I saw the cellars a cadaver in the cellars could contaminate the entire underfloor area and hence result in multiple alerts.
Long since.
The conclusion was that an actual enquiry into (quite serious) abuse of children had been turned, almost single-handedly by Grime, into a meta-'enquiry' into one for evidence of 'murder', for which not a shred of evidence was ever found.
The coconut Eddie alerted to was eventually sent to a forensic laboratory for inspection and established as such (a coconut)
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 10:17:34 AM
The conclusion was that an actual enquiry into (quite serious) abuse of children had been turned, almost single-handedly by Grime, into a meta-'enquiry' into one for evidence of 'murder', for which not a shred of evidence was ever found.
The coconut Eddie alerted to was eventually sent to a forensic laboratory for inspection and established as such (a coconut)
You're still at it.
it wasn't confirmed as a coconut.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 10:28:34 AM
Has all the forensic investigation finished at Haut de la Garenne? When I saw the cellars a cadaver in the cellars could contaminate the entire underfloor area and hence result in multiple alerts.
The official final report said too much emphasis was placed on the dog alerts and the excavations were not justified
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 10:29:48 AM
In view of the fact you haven't supplied cites and told posters to use google In view of the fact that sil refused to provide a cite and told me to do my own donkey work
Do your own donkey work
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 18, 2017, 10:54:58 AM
In view of the fact you haven't supplied cites and told posters to use google In view of the fact that sil refused to provide a cite and told me to do my own donkey work
Do your own donkey work
You made the claim.
Now provide the citation.
I am well aware of what the forensic report said, and from just one report.
' Police now believe the fragment is not bone at all, but rather wood or possibly coconut shell.'
Note, NOT CONFIRMATION, just belief.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7267632.stm
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 18, 2017, 12:02:04 PM
Oh no! not the bloody coconut again.
Had Harry Nilsson lived long enough would he have changed the lyric to:
"Brother bought a coconut, he bought it for a dime His sister had another one was found by Mr Grime"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA9OqUuA6a0
"Is there nothin' I can take to relieve this bellyache"............................... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 12:03:27 PM
I am well aware of what the forensic report said, and from just one report.
' Police now believe the fragment is not bone at all, but rather wood or possibly coconut shell.'
Note, NOT CONFIRMATION, just belief.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7267632.stm
Citation provided, over and over.
But, for the avoidance of doubt, here it is, yet again:
Quote
5.6.19 The sample was logged into the ORAU system in the usual manner and, as in all cases, a sample of bone powder was drilled from the underside of the specimen using a tungsten carbide drill. The powder weighed 440 mg. The technician performing this procedure noted that the material did not behave as bone ordinarily would and did not have the texture that normal bone exhibits. The technician has a great deal of experience in the sampling of bone (almost 30 years). Because of this uncertainty, and as a precaution, a small amount of the sample was combusted to measure the % nitrogen remaining. % N is a good correlate for protein, which is dominated in bone by collagen, and the measurement of nitrogen offers a simple test concerning whether the sample is dateable or not. Low % N means that the material is essentially un-dateable using radiocarbon. 5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified. 5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood. It seemed surprising to us that the material could be so confidently identified by X , and particularly that it could Page 255 of 383
Media Highly Confidential – Personal Information be determined to be an infant specimen. We informed X of our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material may have had something to do with the misidentification. We think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be required, but this not considered by X . A further analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would confirm the situation rapidly.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
The conclusion was that an actual enquiry into (quite serious) abuse of children had been turned, almost single-handedly by Grime, into a meta-'enquiry' into one for evidence of 'murder', for which not a shred of evidence was ever found.
The coconut Eddie alerted to was eventually sent to a forensic laboratory for inspection and established as such (a coconut)
Was the coconut in the building? No it wasn't was it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 12:11:45 PM
I saw Eddie going through the building alerting at multiple places, so was the coconut shell section found inside the building to allow someone to say Eddie alerted to it? Did Eddie ever alert to the coconut shell section at any stage as a separate test, eg was it hidden it in a sand box as was the key fob in the McCann case?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 06:48:05 PM
I saw Eddie going through the building alerting at multiple places, so was the coconut shell section found inside the building to allow someone to say Eddie alerted to it? Did Eddie ever alert to the coconut shell section at any stage as a separate test, eg was it hidden it in a sand box as was the key fob in the McCann case?
The exhibit given the nomenclature jar/6 was identified by an anthropologist on the ground in HDLG as, potentially, a fragment of human skull, and presented to Eddie who alerted to it.
That gave rise to the belief, widely broadcast, and believed, still, today in some quarters, that human remains had been found at HdLg.
The forensic analysis debunked that belief.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 06:58:56 PM
The exhibit given the nomenclature jar/6 was identified by an anthropologist on the ground in PdL as, potentially, a fragment of human skull, and presented to Eddie who alerted to it.
That gave rise to the belief, widely broadcast, and believed, still, today in some quarters, that human remains had been found at HdLg.
The forensic analysis debunked that belief.
So where did you get that from? It was it the long details post above http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7855.msg376701#msg376701
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 07:22:39 PM
a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X identification.
No, what I wanted was the confirmation test with Eddie. You had previous posted this: "The exhibit given the nomenclature jar/6 was identified by an anthropologist on the ground in PdL as, potentially, a fragment of human skull, and presented to Eddie who alerted to it." Where did that sentence come from? It sounds official. But I can't find a trace of it on the internet.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 07:40:46 PM
No, what I wanted was the confirmation test with Eddie. You had previous posted this: "The exhibit given the nomenclature jar/6 was identified by an anthropologist on the ground in PdL as, potentially, a fragment of human skull, and presented to Eddie who alerted to it." Where did that sentence come from? It sounds official. But I can't find a trace of it on the internet.
It's in there, somewhere. But it's a long report and I can't instantly locate it.
ETA: If anyone else wants to have a trawl, feel free.
Thanks for that. "23 February 2008 0910hrs – Item found by anthropologist X and identified on scene as being part of a child’s skull. This item is then exhibited as JAR/6. 0930hrs – Exhibit JAR/6 is presented to the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog which gave an indication suggestive of human remains. 1025hrs – Within the media strategy policy file, DCO HARPER records Decision 8 as ‘to release limited information revealing find of possible human remains’. 1045hrs – CO POWER receives a call from DCO HARPER telling him about the first ‘find’. 1045hrs – A freelance journalist is found in the back field of Haut de la Garenne. 1045hrs – DCO HARPER makes the decision to release information to the press about the ‘find’. ..."
What I find unbelievable is that 20 minutes after the find they are presenting it to the EVRD. Could the chain of events be untrue. Did the journalist see the EVRD alert to the Jar?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 08:15:02 PM
More: "2.41 This Inquiry concludes that CO POWER’s supervision of DCO HARPER was deficient in a number of specific areas. For example; the use of Martin GRIME and his enhanced victim recovery dog; the provenance of Exhibit JAR/6; the relationship with the prosecution lawyers; and the media release in relation to suspects ‘A’. In addition, it is a cause of concern to this Inquiry that CO POWER recorded so little of his decision-making. All in all, adequate records were not kept of their meetings and CO POWER’s decisions. There is a lack of an auditable document trail to show a structured decision-making process. We have found that CO POWER had not countersigned a single policy decision to show any evidence of his involvement."
It is possible to be a scam through and through.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 08:41:49 PM
From what I can see Eddie alerted to spots where cadaver or blood residue MIGHT be found Nothing more
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 09:15:18 PM
More: "2.41 This Inquiry concludes that CO POWER’s supervision of DCO HARPER was deficient in a number of specific areas. For example; the use of Martin GRIME and his enhanced victim recovery dog; the provenance of Exhibit JAR/6; the relationship with the prosecution lawyers; and the media release in relation to suspects ‘A’. In addition, it is a cause of concern to this Inquiry that CO POWER recorded so little of his decision-making. All in all, adequate records were not kept of their meetings and CO POWER’s decisions. There is a lack of an auditable document trail to show a structured decision-making process. We have found that CO POWER had not countersigned a single policy decision to show any evidence of his involvement."
It is possible to be a scam through and through.
I'd believe it if there was a report from Grime saying Eddie had alerted to Exhibit Jar/6
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 18, 2017, 09:50:10 PM
Grime's cryptic comment that humans can't always be right was his way of saying that he considered the lab got it all wrong and Eddie reacted to human remains.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 18, 2017, 10:07:50 PM
Grime's cryptic comment that humans can't always be right was his way of saying that he considered the lab got it all wrong and Eddie reacted to human remains.
Yes the dogs can be wrong but can never be proved wrong
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2017, 10:12:01 PM
I've never dawn a coconut Cranium would be D1 bone
If it was a whole coconut there would be no question but a small piece could be confused with a piece of the skull. I don't doubt that. "D1 bone" is not in my vocabulary. Something to do with bone density.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 01:51:01 AM
I seem to remember saying something like if you soak a cube of pork in petrol for a week would you eat it? I wouldn't call that ham pork or bacon, but rotten meat soaked in petrol unfit for human consumption.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 06:28:22 AM
Eddie did not alert to the odour of bacon or pork. That's a ridiculous suggestion.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 07:32:44 AM
And Grime, himself, says that he alerts to it. Quote: In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains
Why is it ridiculous ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
And Grime, himself, says that he alerts to it. Quote: In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains
Why is it ridiculous ?
There is a big difference to rotten pig meat to fresh pork or cured pig meat products.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on January 20, 2017, 10:15:37 AM
Eddie did not alert to the odour of bacon or pork. That's a ridiculous suggestion.
The following comment from MG would seem to contradict that.
Quote from MG In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains Unquote
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 20, 2017, 10:20:24 AM
There is a big difference to rotten pig meat to fresh pork or cured pig meat products.
So humans being searched for, by cadaver dogs, in big fires would have to have died and rotted before they were consumed by the flames? Otherwise the cadaver dogs wouldn't find them?
Video (there is a video but I dont know how to copy it across) Top News Dec 4, 2016 | 01:38 Police may use robots, cadaver dogs to find California fire victims
Crews searching for the victims of a fire in Oakland, California say they're not able to reach parts of the collapsed warehouse and may need to bring in cadaver dogs and robots. Rough Cut (no reporter narration).
Video Top News Dec 4, 2016 | 01:38 Police may use robots, cadaver dogs to find California fire victims
Crews searching for the victims of a fire in Oakland, California say they're not able to reach parts of the collapsed warehouse and may need to bring in cadaver dogs and robots. Rough Cut (no reporter narration).
And another one.
http://www.foxla.com/news/local-news/194120374-story Cadaver dogs searching rubble for human remains after 'Bluecut' fire destroys 96 homes
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 10:50:31 AM
Sadie - in that link are these words "These highly trained cadaver dogs, use their strong noses to sniff out any sign of human decomposition before alerting their handlers" Even burned bodies will decompose.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2017, 11:39:33 AM
And Grime, himself, says that he alerts to it. Quote: In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains
Why is it ridiculous ?
Obviously he should have said...
In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of rotting decaying pig soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 12:18:01 PM
Whatever the ins and outs of the 1 cubic centimetre of pork, Grime clearly states Eddie does not alert to cooked bacon or sausages. Suggesting that he did is ridiculous; he would be useless unless the police were peckish.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 20, 2017, 12:21:03 PM
Whatever the ins and outs of the 1 cubic centimetre of pork, Grime clearly states Eddie does not alert to cooked bacon or sausages. Suggesting that he did is ridiculous; he would be useless unless the police were peckish.
Cured meats. Dogs trained on pork (as Eddie was!) won't react to cured meats.
But plain pork!
Of course Eddie would (have) reacted to that.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 12:46:09 PM
pork decomposes...thats why it has to be kept in the fridge
Badly kept pork is a possible source of confusion for a cadaver dog in a house I suppose, unless Grime had a training technique to prevent that and I think he did, by later using only human cadaver body parts in training which gave the dogs the title "enhanced victim recovery dogs (EVRD).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 20, 2017, 06:23:47 PM
Whatever the ins and outs of the 1 cubic centimetre of pork, Grime clearly states Eddie does not alert to cooked bacon or sausages. Suggesting that he did is ridiculous; he would be useless unless the police were peckish.
I agree, not to freshly cooked Pork or bacon early after is was cooked .... but after time the cooked pork would decompose as would human bodies
Sadie - in that link are these words "These highly trained cadaver dogs, use their strong noses to sniff out any sign of human decomposition before alerting their handlers" Even burned bodies will decompose.
So cooked pork, even if not decomposed at cooking, will slowly decompose after cooking. Someone eating their bacon or pork sandwich in bed accidentally gets a morsel on the floor or where ever. What happens to that if it isn't instantly cleaned up?
The pork morsel will decompose and produce Cadaver odour ... same as a human.
Sooooo ... the Cadavar odour could well be from a morsel of decomposed cookied pork or bacon, maybe left there years ago, but NO Cadavar odour of a human. Due to his training Eddie would alert to that. Keela would not because she was trained solely on the odour of human blood.
Amaral was wrong IMO .... and NO Court, worth its name, would convict with that knowledge, nor with the possibilities mentioned earlier in this thread.
It is all too dicy, with no intelligence, let alone Forensic Evidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 06:27:56 PM
I agree, not to freshly cooked Pork or bacon early after is was cooked .... but after time the cooked pork would decompose as would human bodies
So cooked pork, even if not decomposed at cooking, will slowly decompose after cooking. Someone eating their bacon or pork sandwich in bed accidentally gets a morsel on the floor or where ever. What happens to that if it isn't instantly cleaned up?
The pork morsel will decompose and produce Cadaver odour ... same as a human.
Sooooo ... the Cadavar odour could well be from a morsel of decomposed cookied pork or bacon, maybe left there years ago, but NO Cadavar odour of a human. Due to his training Eddie would alert to that. Keela would not because she was trained solely on the odour of human blood.
Amaral was wrong IMO .... and NO Court, worth its name, would convict with that knowledge, nor with the possibilities mentioned earlier in this thread.
It is all too dicy, with no intelligence, let alone Forensic Evidence.
That is why he always said there must be corroborating evidence to go along with the alert. Multiple alerts do not make (add up to) evidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 06:57:43 PM
Badly kept pork is a possible source of confusion for a cadaver dog in a house I suppose, unless Grime had a training technique to prevent that and I think he did, by later using only human cadaver body parts in training which gave the dogs the title "enhanced victim recovery dogs (EVRD).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7263355.stm "Super sensitive The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). They are scientifically based and rely on how dogs smell and the chemicals involved. Hunting dogs Dogs are used in hunting because of their sense of smell Canines are known for their outstanding sense of smell, estimated to be 10 times stronger than a human's. Like us they smell using special receptors in the nose, which react to tiny chemical scent particles in the atmosphere and send a message to the brain. Dogs can smell so well because they have an estimated 200 million such receptors, compared to five million in a human nose. The extra receptors mean canines are able to distinguish between different smells much more acutely. "We don't discuss what the training involves, but it's a lot more than putting bits of meat on the ground for them to hunt out," says Mr Grime, a retired South Yorkshire Police officer who now works as an independent consultant."
But it was on the video, he used decomposed human body parts.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 20, 2017, 07:10:34 PM
Look I don't care about whether he went to the US with Eddie. Did he train in England, even, with human body parts?
Does it matter,if he went to the US then thats where he went to train his dogs on human cadever.
Quote
The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I.
Martin Grime personal profile PJ files.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
That's confirmation of what Grime claims; also that human remains are not used to train dogs in England.
What do you think "evidential forensic material" means in other words? "The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time. The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I." as quoted by Barrier.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 20, 2017, 08:10:56 PM
ACPO dog-training guidelines state, in detail, how dogs are trained in England using materials permitted for that use in England, which do not include human remains.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 08:33:27 PM
I agree, not to freshly cooked Pork or bacon early after is was cooked .... but after time the cooked pork would decompose as would human bodies
So cooked pork, even if not decomposed at cooking, will slowly decompose after cooking. Someone eating their bacon or pork sandwich in bed accidentally gets a morsel on the floor or where ever. What happens to that if it isn't instantly cleaned up?
The pork morsel will decompose and produce Cadaver odour ... same as a human.
Sooooo ... the Cadavar odour could well be from a morsel of decomposed cookied pork or bacon, maybe left there years ago, but NO Cadavar odour of a human. Due to his training Eddie would alert to that. Keela would not because she was trained solely on the odour of human blood.
Amaral was wrong IMO .... and NO Court, worth its name, would convict with that knowledge, nor with the possibilities mentioned earlier in this thread.
It is all too dicy, with no intelligence, let alone Forensic Evidence.
Cooked food does not give off cadaver scent, no matter how long you leave it lying around.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 20, 2017, 08:34:41 PM
ACPO dog-training guidelines state, in detail, how dogs are trained in England using materials permitted for that use in England, which do not include human remains.
Seeing as the searches were conducted in Portugal how does this matter.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 20, 2017, 08:37:58 PM
The question under discussion is the provenance of Eddie's training.
Still doesn't alter the fact its on the Madeleine McCann board and the searches were conducted in Portugal using dogs trained in specific disciplines, why does it matter where this training took place.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 20, 2017, 08:44:27 PM
What sort of scent does a live human burnt to death in a house fire at 1200C emit?
A scent very similar to that of a pig, but different from that of other animals. Experienced dogs, however, can distinguish between the scent of human and pig remains;
In the aftermath of California’s recent forest fires, cadaver dogs sniffed beyond burning homes, charred forest, and even other dead animals to pick up the unique scent of human victims. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/researchers-isolate-human-smell-death
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 20, 2017, 09:00:43 PM
A scent very similar to that of a pig, but different from that of other animals. Experienced dogs, however, can distinguish between the scent of human and pig remains;
In the aftermath of California’s recent forest fires, cadaver dogs sniffed beyond burning homes, charred forest, and even other dead animals to pick up the unique scent of human victims. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/researchers-isolate-human-smell-death
Not according to Grime.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 20, 2017, 09:29:43 PM
A scent very similar to that of a pig, but different from that of other animals. Experienced dogs, however, can distinguish between the scent of human and pig remains;
In the aftermath of California’s recent forest fires, cadaver dogs sniffed beyond burning homes, charred forest, and even other dead animals to pick up the unique scent of human victims. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/researchers-isolate-human-smell-death
The report in that article refers only to the decomposition of human corpses. If a person is incinerated as they die, then surely the 5 stages of decomposition are bypassed. Surely that means incinerated pork (from a dead piglet) must smell different compared to freshly incinerated human? BTW the FBI dogs are trained on human cremains as well as human cadaver.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 20, 2017, 09:40:42 PM
The claim was made that Eddie's training was in America on human remains.
Eddie's training was in England on materials permitted for that use in England (mainly, pig cadaver-remains)
In the PJ files M Grime states that
Quote
The dog has however considerable experience in operational recovery of human remains and evidential forensic material and has trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I
So part of Eddies training was in America especially pertaining to human remains.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2017, 09:50:21 PM
The report in that article refers only to the decomposition of human corpses. If a person is incinerated as they die, then surely the 5 stages of decomposition are bypassed. Surely that means incinerated pork (from a dead piglet) must smell different compared to freshly incinerated human? BTW the FBI dogs are trained on human cremains as well as human cadaver.
I thought it talked about cadaver dogs finding people burned to death in a forest fire.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 09:52:29 PM
I thought it talked about cadaver dogs finding people burned to death in a forest fire.
That part, yes, because they are also trained to find human cremains. That presumably is a different odour to a decomposing cadaver not subjected to the intense heat of a fire. I don't know, I'm not a scientist, but if a "cooked" living human smells the same to a dog as a "cooked" dead human, what does that say about Eddie's alert to "cooked" pork?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 09:59:57 PM
if you are burnt to death there is no putrification.....
But after a couple of hours there would be. They won't be be sending the dogs in there till all the embers were out, so sufficient time will have passed for decomposition of the cadaver to set in.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 20, 2017, 10:03:06 PM
But after a couple of hours there would be. They won't be be sending the dogs in there till all the embers were out, so sufficient time will have passed for decomposition of the cadaver to set in. Have you heard of telling fibs?
im speaking off the top of my head.....putrification is caused initially by bnacteria in the stomach...all these would be destroyed by 1200 deg C
it would depend on just how severely the cadaver was burnt
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 10:06:11 PM
im speaking off the top of my head.....putrification is caused initially by bnacteria in the stomach...all these would be destroyed by 1200 deg C
it would depend on just how severely the cadaver was burnt
1200 deg C is the temperature of the flame, not the internal body organs. One lung full of gas that hot you'd instantly die and drop to the ground and the flames might burn your clothes and skin but leave the rest.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 20, 2017, 10:08:45 PM
1200 deg C is the temperature of the flame, not the internal body organs. One lung full of gas that hot you'd died and drop to the ground and the flames might burn your clothes and skin but leave the rest.
im talking about a body consumed by fire..... I saw an open cremation in India and there was little left apart from some charred bones which were collected and cleaned
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 10:13:55 PM
im talking about a body consumed by fire..... I saw an open cremation in India and there was little left apart from some charred bones which were collected and cleaned
OK so inside those bones would still be cadaver odour. And they wouldn't cremate someone with the first few minutes of death either would they. Usually a day or so whatever is the custom.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 20, 2017, 10:18:03 PM
OK so inside those bones would still be cadaver odour. And they wouldn't cremate someone with the first few minutes of death either would they. Usually a day or so whatever is the custom. It is possible he needed to say this to explain how Eddie got so good at detecting human remains without being allowed to train on human remains.
you have obviously worked in a path lab so i bow to your superior knowledge
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 20, 2017, 10:40:50 PM
I'm not concerned about that. I am suggesting, and I might be wrong, but there were indications (video) that Grime was using human cadaver and decomposed human body parts (teeth and old bones and blood) rather than decomposed pig to do his training with.
Soz, this is so late ... have been busy
No matter about the human teeth and and old bones etc, Rob. More importantly, are you forgetting that Eddie was basically trained on Pork Cadaver? Once a dog has been trained to something, he will never forget that training ... so will forever alert to Pork Cadavar
Keela was trained solely on human blood. She will NEVER alert to Pork in any form Therefore, so long as it wasn't blood from a living person, be it pork cadavar or human cadavar ... which ever Eddie alerted to, Keela would not recognise either and she would NOT alert at all.
This makes a nonsense of Amarals theory.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2017, 11:24:39 PM
Cooked food does not give off cadaver scent, no matter how long you leave it lying around.
Yet they use Cadaver dogs in California to track peoploe burned in the fires that rage over the land at times.
How do you account for that?
Also Martin Grimes claimed that he soaked a cube of Pork in petrol for a week then set it alight ... and Eddie alerted to it, despite the petrol and flames
How do you account for that ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 20, 2017, 11:33:14 PM
There are those on this forum severely afflicted by "canis tractophobia".... 8(0(*
and there are more who simply do not understand the significance of the alerts...you are probably one of them These people keep peddling ridiculous notions such as "dogs don't lie" which is hardly surprising as they don't speak
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 20, 2017, 11:40:09 PM
Yet they use Cadaver dogs in California to track peoploe burned in the fires that rage over the land at times.
How do you account for that?
Also Martin Grimes claimed that he soaked a cube of Pork in petrol for a week then set it alight ... and Eddie alerted to it, despite the petrol and flames
How do you account for that ?
So how old was the pork?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 20, 2017, 11:50:15 PM
What is important is that Eddie alerted to a cube of cooked pork .
And, of course, that is what he was trained on..... pig / pork
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 20, 2017, 11:54:50 PM
Was Eddie also trained to remember where he had already alerted? In 5a, when he is taken back into the parents' bedroom where he has alerted beside the wardrobe, he fails to alert in the same place a second time.(see video from 21m) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.0
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 20, 2017, 11:57:57 PM
and there are more who simply do not understand the significance of the alerts...you are probably one of them These people keep peddling ridiculous notions such as "dogs don't lie" which is hardly surprising as they don't speak
I don't recall saying anything about dogs speaking or not speaking.
Perhaps you are confusing it with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-xLlNHIFY
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2017, 11:59:45 PM
Was Eddie also trained to remember where he had already alerted? In 5a, when he is taken back into the parents' bedroom where he has alerted beside the wardrobe, he fails to alert in the same place a second time.(see video from 21m) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.0
OMG, you are right
What is going on here?
It must be that he was over excited the first time, in that corner between the wardrobe and the bed ... and that is why he alerted.
But not the second time he went there.
Jeez, there are so many faults with this so called alert ... you could write a book .... almost !
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 12:15:30 AM
Was Eddie also trained to remember where he had already alerted? In 5a, when he is taken back into the parents' bedroom where he has alerted beside the wardrobe, he fails to alert in the same place a second time.(see video from 21m) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.0
I am sure that is part of the training as the handler would be in a continuous loop of rewarding the dog for finding the same scent over and over again.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 21, 2017, 12:23:02 AM
I am sure that is part of the training as the handler would be in a continuous loop of rewarding the dog for finding the same scent over and over again.
Did you see Eddie receiving a reward after any of his alerts?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 21, 2017, 12:24:40 AM
I am sure that is part of the training as the handler would be in a continuous loop of rewarding the dog for finding the same scent over and over again.
The dog should have been in a 'continuous loop'.
If there was scent there he would have alerted every time he came into contact with it ... it was what he was trained to do.
It is not possible to have an alert and then have no alert at the same location. Doesn't make sense.
Well spotted Misty.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 12:26:48 AM
Well yes it does otherwise he would stand all day in the same corner expecting to play ball every time he barked.
Please don't be tiresome ... although it does call to mind the fact that Eddie did take time out to 'inspect' a ball as well as food from the bin during his inspections in Block 5.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 21, 2017, 12:36:48 AM
Well yes it does otherwise he would stand all day in the same corner expecting to play ball every time he barked.
It raises the question as to why the handler decided to take the dog back into the same room he had already spent a considerable amount of time scenting and had produced an alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 01:51:54 AM
It raises the question as to why the handler decided to take the dog back into the same room he had already spent a considerable amount of time scenting and had produced an alert.
I'll have a look later.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 04:52:02 AM
It must be that he was over excited the first time, in that corner between the wardrobe and the bed ... and that is why he alerted.
But not the second time he went there.
Jeez, there are so many faults with this so called alert ... you could write a book .... almost !
When Eddie goes near the wardrobe the second time Martin Grime growls at Eddie, "No". and he comes away without checking the shelves, hence no alert the second time.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2017, 07:58:07 AM
and there are more who simply do not understand the significance of the alerts...you are probably one of them These people keep peddling ridiculous notions such as "dogs don't lie" which is hardly surprising as they don't speak
Sometimes they don't need to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88XQcpU5Vuk
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 08:10:23 AM
and there are more who simply do not understand the significance of the alerts..
So true,especially when we have the judge in the McCann V Amaral judgement back in 2015 stating as proven facts that the dog alerted to cadaver in 5a and the hire car.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 21, 2017, 09:10:17 AM
If there was scent there he would have alerted every time he came into contact with it ... it was what he was trained to do.
It is not possible to have an alert and then have no alert at the same location. Doesn't make sense.
Well spotted Misty.
Is there an expert way of doing things or a forumnite's opinion on how it should be done.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 09:25:20 AM
Isn't it remarkable how several posters on here think they know better than Martin Grime, on how and why the dogs reacted, when they have no experience or training in the field of forensic dogs whatsoever.
Nah, not really, but very predictable. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 09:31:38 AM
Eddie went for additional training in America.
It is well known why , and for what purposes.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2017, 09:49:59 AM
Isn't it remarkable how several posters on here think they know better than Martin Grime, on how and why the dogs reacted, when they have no experience or training in the field of forensic dogs whatsoever.
Nah, not really, but very predictable. 8**8:/:
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. I find the mental gymnastics quite amusing though. I wonder if any dog trainers/handlers read here for amusement?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 09:57:27 AM
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. I find the mental gymnastics quite amusing though. I wonder if any dog trainers/handlers read here for amusement?
I feel sure some have.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 21, 2017, 09:58:32 AM
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. I find the mental gymnastics quite amusing though. I wonder if any dog trainers/handlers read here for amusement?
Quote
This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'
These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.
It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.
In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 10:12:54 AM
Grime says Eddie was trained on human remains in America, and came away with the name 'Enhanced' cadaver dog, yet he also says Eddie couldn't tell the difference between pig and human remains, so I fail to see why Eddie had the name 'Enhanced' at all.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 10:16:56 AM
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. I find the mental gymnastics quite amusing though. I wonder if any dog trainers/handlers read here for amusement?
you cannot get away from the fact taht the alerts are not reliable as evidence and no inference can be drawn from them. i dont find it amusing...i find it terribly sad that the Mccans are pillorried because people do not have the intelligence to understand the alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
Grime says Eddie was trained on human remains in America, and came away with the name 'Enhanced' cadaver dog, yet he also says Eddie couldn't tell the difference between pig and human remains, so I fail to see why Eddie had the name 'Enhanced' at all.
Well take that up with the head of the training scheme in America. 8)--))
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 10:20:00 AM
So true,especially when we have the judge in the McCann V Amaral judgement back in 2015 stating as proven facts that the dog alerted to cadaver in 5a and the hire car.
Sorry, didn't it just prove that the alerts were written in the book that Amaral wrote? NOT that Eddie alerted to cadaver in 5a.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
Well take that up with the head of the training scheme in America. 8)--))
Why? cadaver dogs in America are trained on human remains, I don't think they are trained on pig remains are they? Eddie was trained on pig remains and couldn't tell the difference between the two.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 10:27:37 AM
Why? cadaver dogs in America are trained on human remains, I don't think they are trained on pig remains are they? Eddie was trained on pig remains and couldn't tell the difference between the two.
Why do you and others have this thing for pigs ?
There is absolutely no evidence of any pig contamination in the McCann case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 10:35:39 AM
The dogs indicated in several places, with materials or places related to the McCann's.
The alerts were not corroborated or dismissed.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 10:35:56 AM
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say. I find the mental gymnastics quite amusing though. I wonder if any dog trainers/handlers read here for amusement?
Quote
This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'
These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.
It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.
In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.
Having viewed that footage of Eddie and Cuddlecat many times I think he reverted to play mode with the toy. I certainly don't view the interaction with the toy as any sort of alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
The dogs indicated in several places, with materials or places related to the McCann's.
The alerts were not corroborated or dismissed.
According to the files the dog inspection of the Murat villa returned very little of consequence yet the inspections of 5a, the rental villa and the McCann clothing returned several alerts. Was this simply an unfortunate coincidence?
Same thing in the underground garage, the dog only alerts to the Scenic and ignores all the other cars. When does it all become a coincidence too far?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2017, 10:52:49 AM
According to the files the dog inspection of the Murat villa returned very little of consequence yet the inspections of 5a, the rental villa and the McCann clothing returned several alerts. Was this simply an unfortunate coincidence?
Same thing in the underground garage, the dog only alerts to the Scenic and ignores all the other cars. When does it all become a coincidence too far?
So some would have us believe.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 10:55:37 AM
As Eddie alerts to blood from a living person too, I find it hard to believe that there was no blood at all in any of the other apartments, or any of the other cars.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 11:04:34 AM
According to the files the dog inspection of the Murat villa returned very little of consequence yet the inspections of 5a, the rental villa and the McCann clothing returned several alerts. Was this simply an unfortunate coincidence?
Same thing in the underground garage, the dog only alerts to the Scenic and ignores all the other cars. When does it all become a coincidence too far?
The alerts on their own don't tell the story. No name, no dates, no motive, no reason, it is only intelligence and its never evidence.
As Eddie alerts to blood from a living person too, I find it hard to believe that there was no blood at all in any of the other apartments, or any of the other cars.
Lace you are wrong Eddie alerts to cadaver odour, and blood that is putrefied.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 11:13:55 AM
The alerts on their own don't tell the story. No name, no dates, no motive, no reason, it is only intelligence and its never evidence.Lace you are wrong Eddie alerts to cadaver odour, and blood that is putrefied.
Eddie alerted to the blood on the key fob that belonged to Gerry and he is alive.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 11:30:53 AM
Sorry, didn't it just prove that the alerts were written in the book that Amaral wrote? NOT that Eddie alerted to cadaver in 5a.
Best ask the judge,they came under the heading of proved facts. Nos 6 and 7.
Quote
6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
What would be nice is for a dog doubter to bring a cite declaring that the dogs didn't alert in the said apartment and hire car.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 21, 2017, 11:34:58 AM
Having viewed that footage of Eddie and Cuddlecat many times I think he reverted to play mode with the toy. I certainly don't view the interaction with the toy as any sort of alert.
Martin Grime's rogatory interview:
Quote
'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
Quote
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
(Martin Grime).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 11:49:38 AM
But no tests were ever performed on Cuddle Cat were there. "The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy." I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy was this because there was no tests done?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 11:53:23 AM
Was Eddie also trained to remember where he had already alerted? In 5a, when he is taken back into the parents' bedroom where he has alerted beside the wardrobe, he fails to alert in the same place a second time.(see video from 21m) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.0
In such a situation a very useful exercise would have been to repeat the inspections in reverse the follow day in order to validate the original alerts.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 12:05:08 PM
In such a situation a very useful exercise would have been to repeat the inspections in reverse the follow day in order to validate the original alerts.
I can't see why that would not work. OK it would double the cost of hiring the dogs. We would still need corroborating evidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 21, 2017, 12:08:11 PM
But no tests were ever performed on Cuddle Cat were there. "The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy." I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy was this because there was no tests done?
No.
(To the bit in bold).
That is, what you say is correct.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 12:12:14 PM
Having viewed that footage of Eddie and Cuddlecat many times I think he reverted to play mode with the toy. I certainly don't view the interaction with the toy as any sort of alert.
Excellent post Angelo...about your best ever and Im absolutely serious...
Grime says...
Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
so grime says eddie alerted to the toy...you say he didnt....i'm with you
tHe alerts are very subjective...not at all cut and dried ....thats why as evidence they are absolutely useless
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 12:16:03 PM
Thank you ferryman but I think Eddie thought he was on a jolly and a cuddly toy was a nice distraction evidenced by him playing with it on the villa lounge floor. Was picking it up out of the toy box and throwing it around part of any training? Me thinks not and thereafter hiding it in the sideboard cupboard was only asking for trouble.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 21, 2017, 12:19:10 PM
Thank you ferryman but I think Eddie thought he was on a jolly and a cuddly toy was a nice distraction evidenced by him playing with it on the villa lounge floor. Was picking it up out of the toy box and throwing it around part of any training? Me thinks not and thereafter hiding it in the sideboard cupboard was only asking for trouble.
I'm certainly with you on that.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 21, 2017, 12:21:12 PM
Excellent post Angelo...about your best ever and Im absolutely serious...
Grime says...
Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog'' The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
so grime says eddie alerted to the toy...you say he didnt....i'm with you
tHe alerts are very subjective...not at all cut and dried ....thats why as evidence they are absolutely useless
For once I agree with you and I'm pleased you accept the so-called alerts are evidence of a sort but unreliable without forensic corroboration.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 12:26:23 PM
Is there an expert way of doing things or a forumnite's opinion on how it should be done.
Regardless, the operation in Luz was clearly compromised on so many levels. The boxing of suspect clothing and the way it was thereafter treated was a friggin joke imo.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 12:51:45 PM
evidence ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/Submit noun 1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
i cant relly see that as the alerts are unreliable tehy can be regarded as any type of evidence. As they are unreliable they cannot support any proposition
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 01:26:38 PM
If other evidence is found then the dog alerts take on a whole new life.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 01:40:01 PM
That is how a case is built, various forms of evidence are put together to form proof.
Tell me how the alerts can play any art in that They totally cannot Tell me what evidence might be found that would make the alerts useful There is none Even if a body was found that would not indicate death in the apartment
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 21, 2017, 01:57:44 PM
It's not hard. If Eddie barks it's a positive alert - wardrobe, sofa, garden, clothes, car etc. The dogs trained every day in this work. The police have to prove the alerts like in the Prout case not the dog.
"What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication." MG
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 21, 2017, 01:59:11 PM
Tell me how the alerts can play any art in that They totally cannot Tell me what evidence might be found that would make the alerts useful There is none Even if a body was found that would not indicate death in the apartment
Depends surely where a body were to be found,if in Portugal then it lead to further question,but if the latest crap news from the papers regarding a snatch squad and Belgium is anything to go by then the likelihood of OG or even the PJ finding one is zero.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 21, 2017, 02:23:08 PM
Did Keela and Eddie alert to the same key fob? There is no reason why the same key fob can't have blood on it and cadaver odour on it too.
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
NOTE - They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 21, 2017, 02:51:15 PM
Gerry has never revealed how he bled on the car key as alerted by those pesky unreliable dogs @)(++(*
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 21, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
NOTE - They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
was there a cite in there somewhere?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 03:44:06 PM
Tell me how the alerts can play any art in that They totally cannot Tell me what evidence might be found that would make the alerts useful There is none Even if a body was found that would not indicate death in the apartment
If a body were found in Luz then the alerts take on a whole new significance, don't you understand this basic concept?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
NOTE - They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
Your "no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'" comment is inaccurate as any dog can be trained to detect any scent and that includes fresh human blood.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2017, 04:04:48 PM
Tell me how the alerts can play any art in that They totally cannot Tell me what evidence might be found that would make the alerts useful There is none Even if a body was found that would not indicate death in the apartment
Why do you think Mr Grime cannot answer questions on this forum?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 08:34:56 PM
the number of alerts is in itself extremely suspicious that there is a cadaver (someone) in the story somehow, at sometime, for some reason.
We know that a former owner of 5a died so there could be a link to some of the alerts in 5a but the alerts in the rented villa and to the McCann clothing is something yet to be explained?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 21, 2017, 08:54:17 PM
Why do you think Mr Grime cannot answer questions on this forum?
He has already broken judicial secrecy by using part of the video of his dogs in action for promotional purposes. As his evidence would never be admissible in a Portuguese court, what's stopping him answering any general questions on his own & his dogs' abilities?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
He has already broken judicial secrecy by using part of the video of his dogs in action for promotional purposes. As his evidence would never be admissible in a Portuguese court, what's stopping him answering any general questions on his own & his dogs' abilities?
That's incorrect. Grime has already told us he cannot answer questions relating to the case as he may yet be required to testify. Grime never released the video.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2017, 09:04:56 PM
We know that a former owner of 5a died so there could be a link to some of the alerts in 5a but the alerts in the rented villa and to the McCann clothing is something yet to be explained?
You left the rental car off that list. There could be a link to some of the alerts in 5a the alerts in the rented villa, the rental car and to the McCann clothing these are something yet to be explained.
In my analysis and what Grimes says you would have to consider the 2 alerts to the McCann clothing and to Cuddle Cat were ruses for there was no attempt to retain the items and no forensic testing was attempted on them. The pattern of the others - The wardrobe area, the garden the booth, and the key fob could be suggestive of a body on the move. The alert associated to blood in the tiles is suggestive of an accident (but only minor amounts of blood). Whether "the accident" and "the body on the move" are linked was not proven forensically.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 21, 2017, 09:39:35 PM
That's incorrect. Grime has already told us he cannot answer questions relating to the case as he may yet be required to testify. Grime never released the video.
If that is the case, why hasn't he requested all copies of the video be removed from the internet?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2017, 09:43:15 PM
Your "no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'" comment is inaccurate as any dog can be trained to detect any scent and that includes fresh human blood.
Sorry, I should have made it clear, that quote from was Martin Grime here is the full article -http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 22, 2017, 11:19:42 AM
Sorry, I should have made it clear, that quote from was Martin Grime here is the full article -http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Read that article and make your point again. When I read it I notice where the confusion occurs "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. "
It is the word decomposed that should be ahead of the words "human remains and body fluids including blood".
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 22, 2017, 01:48:01 PM
Martin was kind enough to supply several answers to questions including those pertaining to Eddie's death, the confirmed date of his retirement from the police, the dogsdontlie website, the role of the USA versus the UK in cadaver dog techniques, Eddie's behaviour in the gym including the fact that the underground car park had been swept for scent prior to the cars being brought in.
Grime "Everyone should bear in mind that should a trial come to pass I will be required to give evidence.
The process of asking me questions etc will only jeopardize criminal proceedings.
Whilst I understand people's interest in the case I cannot be a part of the discussions .... "
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Admin on January 22, 2017, 02:59:59 PM
Martin was kind enough to supply several answers to questions including those pertaining to Eddie's death, the confirmed date of his retirement from the police, the dogsdontlie website, the role of the USA versus the UK in cadaver dog techniques, Eddie's behaviour in the gym including the fact that the underground car park had been swept for scent prior to the cars being brought in.
Grime "Everyone should bear in mind that should a trial come to pass I will be required to give evidence.
The process of asking me questions etc will only jeopardize criminal proceedings.
Whilst I understand people's interest in the case I cannot be a part of the discussions .... "
It is such a long time since those conversations took place I had forgotten about them.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 23, 2017, 02:13:24 AM
I am sorry I dont have the energy to do this myself, but maybe someone has.
I notice there is a
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm .... and also a .... http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_ROGATORY.htm
Are they the same ? Why the different spelling for ROGATORY? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 23, 2017, 02:25:34 AM
Read that article and make your point again. When I read it I notice where the confusion occurs "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. "
It is the word decomposed that should be ahead of the words "human remains and body fluids including blood".
But remember that a cadaver even 1.5 hour after death will be producing cadaver odour detectable to Eddie, and that carcase would still be OK for human consumption in terms of a breakdown at a slaughterhouse. Because humans don't sense cadaver odour we would not notice such low levels of cadaverine and putrescine.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 23, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
But remember that a cadaver even 1.5 hour after death will be producing cadaver odour detectable to Eddie, and that carcase would still be OK for human consumption in terms of a breakdown at a slaughterhouse. Because humans don't sense cadaver odour we would not notice such low levels of cadaverine and putrescine.
You just answered yourself there Rob LOL.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 23, 2017, 10:58:11 AM
Read that article and make your point again. When I read it I notice where the confusion occurs "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. "
It is the word decomposed that should be ahead of the words "human remains and body fluids including blood".
Grime says Eddie will alert to dried blood and that is what he alerted to the key fob.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2017, 11:03:43 AM
How do you know there was not traces of cadaver odour on it, that Eddie alerted to?
That's the point No one really knows A complete dogs dinner But it's not important because the real role and value of the dogs is finding evidence and that's exactly what Grime says
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 23, 2017, 11:55:38 AM
How do you know there was not traces of cadaver odour on it, that Eddie alerted to?
Both Eddie and Keela alerting to the keyfob indicates human blood was on it but I take your point, cadaver odour and lots more could also have been on it...as davel states, we just don't know.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2017, 03:54:24 PM
Both Eddie and Keela alerting to the keyfob indicates human blood was on it but I take your point, cadaver odour and lots more could also have been on it...as davel states, we just don't know.
Forensics confirmed the provenance as Gerry.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 03:58:19 PM
As Robbie has pointed out cadaver odour could very well have been present as well as blood. Secondary transfer to a key fob is extremely easy if one thinks about it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 04:46:42 PM
Except that we know from the (corrupted) account (PdL) of the inspection in the gym how these inspections are supposed to be conducted.
You get the dog to reconnoitre an area beforehand; then you introduce whatever you want the dog to examine, so that you can be sure that the area is free of pre-existing scents.
Thereby, you increase assurity that if the dog alerts, the alert is to what you have introduced, not to any extraneous scent.
And preferably without the dog trampling all over stuff it tasked to inspect, or picking it up in its mouth.
Sorry for going back a week but I recently saw confirmation from the dog handler that the garage and the gym were forensically swept by the dogs prior to the cars and clothing being brought in. Seems you jumped to the wrong conclusion in your rush to criticise.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 04:47:21 PM
Grime says Eddie will alert to dried blood and that is what he alerted to the key fob.
I'll repeat it too: "Read that article and make your point again. When I read it I notice where the confusion occurs "'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. "
It is the word decomposed that should be ahead of the words "human remains and body fluids including blood".
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 05:22:52 PM
#no they dont because the alerts are not deemed to be reliable and their is no independent verification to say they are. I would say based on the available evidence taht none of the alerts in pdl related to maddie
That must be one of the most ill informed posts you have ever made. Certainly dog handlers testify at trials, I believe it is you who are uninformed and not other forum members whom you constantly criticise.
Sniffer dog used in search for Madeleine McCann found missing Orkney man's body
Feb 17, 2010 By Dailyrecord.co.uk
A SNIFFER dog used in the search for missing Madeleine McCann found a man buried in sand dunes in Orkney, a court heard yesterday.
FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow he and his springer spaniels Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in by police in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on the island of Sanday last June.
Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.
Mr Grime said: "His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig."
The body of "Black Bob" Rose was later found at the spot.
The trial was also told one of the two men on trial for Bob's murder, Stephen Crummack, had indicated the area to police days before.
Detective Constable Neil Docherty said Crummack, 51, went on to blame his co-accused, John Campbell, 59, for killing Bob.
The pair deny murder and a string of related charges and the trial continues.
Sorry for going back a week but I recently saw confirmation from the dog handler that the garage and the gym were forensically swept by the dogs prior to the cars and clothing being brought in. Seems you jumped to the wrong conclusion in your rush to criticise.
This is from the 'official' (maybe not so official) record of the inspection in the gym:
Quote
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.
For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.
And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?
Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?
Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts.
Why was Eddie deployed at all?
What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 05:29:26 PM
This is from the 'official' (maybe not so official) record of the inspection in the gym:
Quote
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.
For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.
And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?
Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?
Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts.
Why was Eddie deployed at all?
What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?
Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2017, 05:32:00 PM
No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.
For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.
And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?
Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?
Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts.
Why was Eddie deployed at all?
What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?
Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?
Why did Harrison (retrospectively) issue PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles?
Given zero regard to principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transported from villa to gym, why the preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?
I think PJ personnel read these translated NPIA instructions Harrison gave them on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings, plucked bits from them, and contrived an 'account' of the 'inspection' in the gym, that was wholly unnecessary, ineptly carried out so that both dogs trampled all over stuff and manifestly unprofessional in that one dog picked stuff up in its mouth, manifestly NOT a trained response.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
Why did Harrison (retrospectively) issue PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles?
Given zero regard to principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transported from villa to gym, why the preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?
I think PJ personnel read these translated NPIA instructions Harrison gave them on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings, plucked bits from them, and contrived an 'account' of the 'inspection' in the gym, that was wholly unnecessary, ineptly carried out so that both dogs trampled all over stuff and manifestly unprofessional in that one dog picked stuff up in its mouth, manifestly NOT a trained response.
Did Eddie alert to any clothing item? More than one? Could that have been evidence of cross contamination?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 23, 2017, 05:43:36 PM
No gap between completion of the reconnoitre and commencement of the search.
For a prior reconnoitre to have any worth, clothes should have been packed and outside the dogs' scent-range during reconnoitre.
And seeing as clothing, already inspected once in the villa without result, was bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes, with zero regard to principles of cross-contamination, and that all items, apparently, 'reacted' to came from the same box (guaranteeing that if any items in the box were contaminated, all would be cross-contaminated) why would there be any concern about pre-existing scents in the chosen venue (the gym)?
Why was Keela deployed first (without reacting); then Eddie?
Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts.
Why was Eddie deployed at all?
What would finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any item of clothing have proved?
Are you so naive as to think those timings are accurate?
Do you know if the cadaver dogs alerted in Huntley's house in the Soham case?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
Both Eddie and Keela alerting to the keyfob indicates human blood was on it but I take your point, cadaver odour and lots more could also have been on it...as davel states, we just don't know.
Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault. Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob. There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 23, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault. Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob. There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.
The car was driven by a policeman who wore no protective clothing. police come into contact with dead bodies
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 23, 2017, 07:31:55 PM
The car was driven by a policeman who wore no protective clothing. police come into contact with dead bodies
This would also explain the alerts in Apartment 5a, which, unlike all the other apartments had been crawling with police and forensic teams, none of which seemed to be wearing protective clothing either.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
Keela was trained to alert only to the blood from a living person. The odour of the blood from a dead person would NOT smell the same, it would smell of death. Keela was NOT trained to alert to this, because she was not a Cadaver dog.
The two dogs were used together because they complimented each other. Eddie unfortunately was double trained and alerted to living blood and the scent of death. Keela alerted to ONLY the scent of living blood (dessicated).
When Eddie alerted it could have been to Living blood (dessicated) or it could have been to the odour of a dead body. To sort out whether he was alerting to dead body odour, or the blood from a living person, it was necessary for Keela to sniff the odour too. If she alerted as well, then it was living blood. If she kept quiet at the same odour, then it was either a sign that it could be cadaveresent odour ... or it could be pig ... or it could be a false alarm from an over excited dog .... as in mistys video
I'm afraid you are mistaken Sadie, Keela alerted to human blood, dried or fresh.
Extract from the verbal report by Martin Grime:
She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.
and...
CSI HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOG
'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate exclusively human blood. She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles. In training she has accurately located samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.
She is trained specifically using human blood obtained through the haematology department at Sheffield Northern General Hospital. The blood undergoes strict screening for disease and contamination prior to use. The samples are from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds and are from both male and female sources.
Keela's training and licensing is based around the level of 1 positive screening sample introduced into 200 control articles or 1 positive sample introduced during 6 hours searching in relation to crime scenes or vehicles.
Gerry McCann was not the last person to drive the Renault. Therefore not the last person to touch the key fob. There is no evidence to the effect that the last driver or drivers wore protective gloves.
One of the reason cadaver alert should never be thought of as evidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 07:43:18 PM
Evidence can be neutral Robbie but it's still evidence.
But if all the alerts were due to cross contamination what sort of evidence would that be?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2017, 07:56:23 PM
I confess to getting a bit cross with preoccupation with 'defending' the reputations of two dogs who couldn't (and in respect of Eddie, RIP) didn't! give a damn what humans said about them.
What gets trampled in the midst of this mush is the reputations of two human beings accused of covering up the (alleged!) 'fact' of her death, fabricating an abduction and launching a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name.
You know. What matters more?
The reputations of two dogs?
Or the reputations of two human beings, grappling with aftermath of scurrilous accusations, post the shelved enquiry, published in a book sold to hundreds-of-thousands across countries of the continent of Europe?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 23, 2017, 08:02:43 PM
Does it not concern anyone that for one -- and only one -- of all inspections in the shelved PDL enquiry (the inspection of vehicles!) Grime wore the white anti cross contamination overalls of his trade?
And does it not concern anyone that, post PdL, Grime was handed the video of that inspection to use for personal and promotional purposes?
Or that he did when he applied for the gig at Haut de la Garenne?
Does it not concern anyone that for one -- and only one -- of all inspections in the shelved PDL enquiry (the inspection of vehicles!) Grime wore the white anti cross contamination overalls of his trade?
And does it not concern anyone that, post PdL, Grime was handed the video of that inspection to use for personal and promotional purposes?
Or that he did when he applied for the gig at Haut de la Garenne?
Why should it? Grime is a dog handler expert, it's up to him what he wears and which media presentations of his work he wishes to promote.
Is the point that the others there didn't?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2017, 08:55:39 PM
Plenty of interviews to do statement analysis on. Peter Hyatt did an analysis on one over 4 years old and thought they were guilty, but I think he needs to do more.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 23, 2017, 09:20:21 PM
The alerts are unreliable as evidence...thats all that is important. sceptics just dont seem to understand
the only reason they could be unreliable as evidence is because they ahve not been shown to be reliable .....that is the very unfortunate truth for the sceptics
When you quote Grime you could at least quote him properly ergo
Grime:
' My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. '
So the important factor here is corroborating evidence meaning alerts can have evidential reliability in the right circumstances. Stating that dog alerts generally are not reliable evidence is false.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 12:23:07 AM
You made an error again Grime said "He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects." So even though what you said is true in that all the alerts are on the McCann associated properties "it does not identify suspects".
That's right, its just one big coincidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 12:31:28 AM
Grime's reaction to Eddie's reaction to a coconut was: humans can't be right all the time.
Grime, at least, makes no bones that Eddie reacted to the coconut.
Maybe someone's ashes had been buried within the coconut shell?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 12:37:11 AM
When the handler is unable to precisely identify what the EVRD is alerting to (as shown in the CC episode) how, exactly, is corroborating evidence supposed to be obtained? The CSI dog did not screen anything in the rented villa so the EVRD could have been alerting to blood on the carpet, worktop, chair, etc etc, which was not McCann related
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 24, 2017, 02:59:19 AM
When the handler is unable to precisely identify what the EVRD is alerting to (as shown in the CC episode) how, exactly, is corroborating evidence supposed to be obtained? The CSI dog did not screen anything in the rented villa so the EVRD could have been alerting to blood on the carpet, worktop, chair, etc etc, which was not McCann related
If the EVRD alerts they need to check the immediate area for bodies or body parts. For that is the type of corroborating evidence required.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2017, 07:45:41 AM
When you quote Grime you could at least quote him properly ergo
Grime:
' My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence. '
So the important factor here is corroborating evidence meaning alerts can have evidential reliability in the right circumstances. Stating that dog alerts generally are not reliable evidence is false.
If evidence is found it is that evidence that would be used in court The alert itself would be unimportant I'm right
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 24, 2017, 09:57:02 AM
Both Eddie and Keela alerting to the keyfob indicates human blood was on it but I take your point, cadaver odour and lots more could also have been on it...as davel states, we just don't know.
What makes me think Eddie was alerting to the key fob as did Keela, is that Eddie also alerted to the very same spot that Keela did behind the sofa. Too much of a coincidence for me. If there had been a body lying behind that couch, Eddie would have alerted to it immediately and not gone and sniffed a tiny spot on a tile.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 24, 2017, 10:04:28 AM
I am going to mention the black and white trousers of Kate's, which were alerted to by Eddie with a white top also belonging to Kate. So these trousers are supposed to have been in contact with a dead body, Kate wore those trousers when she appealed to the abductor, I think it was a few days after the 3rd of May but not sure. If these trousers are supposed to have been in contact with a dead body, when would this have happened? If they were the trousers Kate had worn when hiding Madeleine, would she wear them again to appeal to the abductor? If they had been subject to cross contamination, then why just these trousers? why not every other piece of clothing, which must have been in the dirty laundry bag as the trousers would have been worn? That would mean then that Kate would have worn them, washed them to wear making her appeal. It really doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 24, 2017, 10:30:21 AM
What makes me think Eddie was alerting to the key fob as did Keela, is that Eddie also alerted to the very same spot that Keela did behind the sofa. Too much of a coincidence for me. If there had been a body lying behind that couch, Eddie would have alerted to it immediately and not gone and sniffed a tiny spot on a tile.
Remember it isn't just a matter of having a dead body behind the couch. It is a matter of having a body that had been deceased for more than an hour and a half. Even if you can imagine an accident happening that resulted in the death of Madeleine where does the hour and half come into the scenario for the cadaver odour to develop. Who moved it from behind the couch and at what time. These were the questions Gerry was referring to when he said when the accident occur and when did we move the body?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 11:05:59 AM
If evidence is found it is that evidence that would be used in court The alert itself would be unimportant I'm right
Wrong. The alert is important in that it potentially connects the body to the evidence. I notice you have never replied to my post pointing out that dog handlers do testify at trials.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Wrong. The alert is important in that it potentially connects the body to the evidence. I notice you have never replied to my post pointing out that dog handlers do testify at trials.
It's you who is wrong The evidence is the body Dog handlers may testify at trials but Grime has already given a stated saying the alerts in this case have no evidential reliability
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 12:01:22 PM
It's you who is wrong The evidence is the body Dog handlers may testify at trials but Grime has already given a stated saying the alerts in this case have no evidential reliability
You were wrong about dog handlers testifying and again you have quoted Grime out of context. What he actually said was that the alerts had no evidential reliability until corroborated by other evidence. Ergo, if corroborative evidence is found then the alerts become highly significant.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 12:05:36 PM
I am going to mention the black and white trousers of Kate's, which were alerted to by Eddie with a white top also belonging to Kate. So these trousers are supposed to have been in contact with a dead body, Kate wore those trousers when she appealed to the abductor, I think it was a few days after the 3rd of May but not sure. If these trousers are supposed to have been in contact with a dead body, when would this have happened? If they were the trousers Kate had worn when hiding Madeleine, would she wear them again to appeal to the abductor? If they had been subject to cross contamination, then why just these trousers? why not every other piece of clothing, which must have been in the dirty laundry bag as the trousers would have been worn? That would mean then that Kate would have worn them, washed them to wear making her appeal. It really doesn't make sense.
A good point Lace. Cross contamination is a major issue with cadaver inspections. Take the hire car for example, heaven knows how many people used it before and after the McCanns so the opportunity for contamination was epic. I personally think the whole dog inspection exercise was somewhat futile coming as it did so long after Madeleine's disappearance. The dogs should have been brought in immediately and not months later.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 12:32:00 PM
Can we assume, due to the lack of reference to the Soham case in Grime's CV, that his dog/the cadaver dogs did not indicate in Huntley's house or car?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 24, 2017, 12:47:42 PM
You were wrong about dog handlers testifying and again you have quoted Grime out of context. What he actually said was that the alerts had no evidential reliability until corroborated by other evidence. Ergo, if corroborative evidence is found then the alerts become highly significant.
Where are they going to find corroratve evidence to support the alerts Evidence would need to be found at the site the dog alerted A body found anywhere else would no corroborate the alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 24, 2017, 12:52:30 PM
Where are they going to find corroratve evidence to support the alerts Evidence would need to be found at the site the dog alerted A body found anywhere else would no corroborate the alerts
Corroborative evidence could take many forms, someone walking away with an inert child for example.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 01:12:25 PM
Can you provide any cites as to how Grime was involved in the Soham case?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817 *snipped* Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 01:22:31 PM
Where are they going to find corroratve evidence to support the alerts Evidence would need to be found at the site the dog alerted A body found anywhere else would no corroborate the alerts
By undertaking normal investigative measures.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
Where are they going to find corroratve evidence to support the alerts Evidence would need to be found at the site the dog alerted A body found anywhere else would no corroborate the alerts
Not necessarily. Say for example a skeleton was found which proved to be Madeleine then the alerts take on a whole new meaning since the last time she was seen was in 5a. A body which had no relevance to the case would have no relevance to the alerts unless said body had some other connection to 5a.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2017, 01:25:03 PM
Not necessarily. Say for example a skeleton was found which proved to be Madeleine then the alerts take on a whole new meaning since the last time she was seen was in 5a.
So in that situation what do the alerts tell us They tell us Maddie MAY have died in 5a No confirmation Same as we are now
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 01:26:56 PM
What they would tell us is that a whole new investigation is about to begin.
Sorry John it would be the body that triggered the new investigation
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
There is an important role for CSI dogs in every missing person investigation where a crime is suspected. Only specially trained dogs can as yet detect cadaver odour so their importance can never be underestimated.
Why do you think they brought these dogs to Luz anyway?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 24, 2017, 02:31:31 PM
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sniffer-dog-used-in-search-for-madeleine-1050817 *snipped* Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies and was used in the McCann case and the Soham murders inquiry, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24.
Yes, that's all I found. So no information about searches or anything and to suggest Grime failed at Soham is not on.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2017, 02:33:30 PM
There is an important role for CSI dogs in every missing person investigation where a crime is suspected. Only specially trained dogs can as yet detect cadaver odour so their importance can never be underestimated.
Why do you think they brought these dogs to Luz anyway?
They brought them because they suspected Maddie might be dead and thought the dogs might find some evidence No evidence found and we are no wiser to Maddies fate
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 24, 2017, 02:36:19 PM
They brought them because they suspected Maddie might be dead and thought the dogs might find some evidence No evidence found and we are no wiser to Maddies fate
Exactly, and we know how long cadaver odour takes to form.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 04:26:16 PM
Yes, that's all I found. So no information about searches or anything and to suggest Grime failed at Soham is not on.
I do not have enough information to know if Grime or Eddie failed at Soham. However, I am interested to know if a) Grime was actually Eddie's handler on that mission b) any of the dogs used did indicate in Huntley's house or his car
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 24, 2017, 07:58:29 PM
I do not have enough information to know if Grime or Eddie failed at Soham. However, I am interested to know if a) Grime was actually Eddie's handler on that mission b) any of the dogs used did indicate in Huntley's house or his car
If a cadaver dog is not sent into the right area to search it won't alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 24, 2017, 08:11:50 PM
I do not have enough information to know if Grime or Eddie failed at Soham. However, I am interested to know if a) Grime was actually Eddie's handler on that mission b) any of the dogs used did indicate in Huntley's house or his car
The police searched the house and grounds of Soham Village College where they found items of interest to their investigation. Huntley and Carr were arrested a few hours later on suspicion of murder. The bodies were found a few hours after that. We know Mitchell and Campbell were around.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 08:52:44 PM
The police searched the house and grounds of Soham Village College where they found items of interest to their investigation. Huntley and Carr were arrested a few hours later on suspicion of murder. The bodies were found a few hours after that. We know Mitchell and Campbell were around.... ?{)(**
That doesn't answer either of my questions, Alice.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 24, 2017, 09:37:27 PM
That doesn't answer either of my questions, Alice.
I am not sure there is an answer. If one Googles Soham Murders linked with PC Grime and/or CSI dogs one is inundated with hits on Madeleine McCann sites. Nuff said in my book.. 8(>((
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2017, 11:11:42 PM
British police inspector Mark Harrison, of the National Centre for Police Excellence (NCPE), said the hounds had been used in the hunt for the murderer of Holly Wells (10) and Jessica Chapman (10) in Soham, Cambridgeshire, in August 2002.
The dogs ultimately helped bring 29-year-old school caretaker Ian Huntley to justice.
"The dogs that we have here include two from South Yorkshire Police and one of those is the only one in the world trained to detect human blood," said Insp Harrison. "The other is a victim recovery dog and helps us find human remains."
One of the dogs is the only one in the world trained to sniff out human blood.
In a joint operation between the FBI and Britain's National Crimes and Operations Faculty, the dogs have all been trained to sniff out scents which are weeks or even months old.
Det Insp Harrison said the dogs are presented with a scent which they then try to follow.
He said: "Many people think in the 21st century machines are the answer, not something hairy and smelly like a dog, but our tests show us that there is no machine that can come anywhere close to what these dogs can do.
"The scent is collected in a scientific way using a machine and the dogs will take the scent not off a person but will smell what we call a scent pad.
"Sometimes the scent hasn't even come into contact with the person. We have a machine which can suck a specific scent from the air and the dogs will follow that."
Det Insp Harrison has been involved in a number of high-profile cases. He co-ordinated a team of sniffer dogs in the search for Bromham teenager Tom Potter who went missing in January this year. His body was later found in the River Great Ouse.
He was also played a major role in the Soham murder investigation, leading three forensic teams and 20 officers in a fingertip probe of killer Ian Huntley's home. Before that he was involved in the operations to try and find Surrey schoolgirl Mily Dowler and Essex teenager Danielle Jones.
Last year Det Insp Harrison was awarded the MBE for his work in helping track down missing people.
Read more at: http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/news/specialist-joins-hunt-for-abigail-s-attacker-1-1086115
Tom Potter went missing in January and tracker dogs led police to the river.
A diving team failed to find him but a walker spotted the body several weeks later and police believe he may have been trying to find a short cut.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 24, 2017, 11:20:01 PM
None of those cases answers my questions, Pathfinder.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 24, 2017, 11:24:23 PM
I wasn't answering your questions. The dog alerts in this case are very significant. If these dogs alert then the police pay close attention and follow it up. Martin Grime won't be allowed to answer questions on the case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 24, 2017, 11:34:47 PM
As you brought it up, shouldn't you be looking for the answere
In the absence of anything to the contrary it would appear the dogs were not instrumental in finding cadaver odour in Huntley's house or car - otherwise we'd have heard all about it. I'm open to cites proving otherwise.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 25, 2017, 10:02:52 AM
In the absence of anything to the contrary it would appear the dogs were not instrumental in finding cadaver odour in Huntley's house or car - otherwise we'd have heard all about it. I'm open to cites proving otherwise.
I don't suppose for one minute that the police considered your "we" important enough to be on the list of people who must be informed.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 25, 2017, 02:51:05 PM
In the absence of anything to the contrary it would appear the dogs were not instrumental in finding cadaver odour in Huntley's house or car - otherwise we'd have heard all about it. I'm open to cites proving otherwise.
I'd agree with that, although, with the cyber-criminals who stalk this neck of cyber-space, who know how to manipulate and distort google, I wouldn't rule out some link, apparently, 'proving' that they did, suddenly appearing:
He explained that someone working for him — a young person who wanted to know more about my career — had Googled my name and been horrified by what he’d uncovered.
Directly beneath Wikipedia’s biography of me was the link to a shocking website. It included a lengthy diatribe which, among other lurid allegations, accused me of satanic child abuse, child murder, burying dead babies in my garden, holding drug-fuelled sex parties, covering up the crimes of well-known paedophiles, and creating Childline (the confidential helpline I set up in 1986 which has now helped four-and-a-half million children) as a front organisation whose sole purpose was to filter out accusations of abuse by celebrities.
These trolls could have wrecked my charity work Anyone reading this poisonous filth, the website shrieked with rage, would be astonished that I had not been arrested for all these crimes long ago.
No wonder my colleague was deeply concerned when he read it. Not just because of the reputational damage it could do me personally, but because of the real harm it would do to the causes I care about, especially the work I have done with Childline for the past 30 years to protect children from abuse.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 26, 2017, 01:04:49 PM
I'd agree with that, although, with the cyber-criminals who stalk this neck of cyber-space, who know how to manipulate and distort google, I wouldn't rule out some link, apparently, 'proving' that they did, suddenly appearing:
I am so glad that others, (well you ferryman, anyway), are noticing what is happening on the internet at the hands of cyber-criminals. I have been "going on" about the fraudulence of parts of the internet for years now, but I thought that I was a lone voice.
1. Processos 807-808 was altered, with the road name Rua Andre de Castro being changed to another name, so that it was unrecognisable. Nobody would be able to go and walk that now unrecognidable street, as i did, to check out the errors in 807-808. and to assess other places of potential interest nearby. .Also a question mark was inserted, or taken out, at will. The fact that this Processos had so many seeming errors and also was manipulated to hide thing, adds to my suspicion that this place was of interest ... and that it was Madeleine that was there.
2. Even Google Earth is altered with certain places suddenly being hidden under a little cloud, or similar. And when you try to follow the yellow route line on Google Street Scene to a suspicious place, the yellow line suddenly veers off away from the place where it is supposed to be going .... and away from the "interesting " place that you are trying to look at
... or it completely jumps that bit and "picks up" again farther along ... or it refuses to go any further along the street scene route as indicated earlier (blue line) on regular GE. This only seems to happen at suspicious places ... so that you cant see them?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 26, 2017, 01:05:57 PM
I am so glad that others, (well you ferryman, anyway), are noticing what is happening on the internet at the hands of cyber-criminals. I have been "going on" about the fraudulence of parts of the internet for years now, but I thought that I was a lone voice.
1. Processos 807-808 was altered, with the road name Rua Andre de Castro being changed to another name, so that it was unrecognisable. Nobody would be able to go an walk that now unrecognidable street, as i did, to check out the errors in 807-808. and to assess other places of potential interst nearby. .Also a question mark was inserted or taken out at will. The fact that this Processos had so many seeming errors and also was manipulated to hide thing, adds to my suspicion that this place was of interest ... and that it was Madeleine that was there.
2. Even Google Earth is altered with certain places suddenly being hidden under a little cloud, or similar. And when you try to follow the yellow route line on Google Street Scene to a suspicious place, the yellow line suddenly veers off away from the place where it is supposed to be going .... and away from the "interesting " place that you are trying to look at
... or it completely jumps that bit and "picks up" again farther along ... or it refuses to go any further along the street scene route as indicated earlier (blue line) on regular GE. This only seems to happen at suspicious places ... so that you cant see them?
3. I have noticed that, in some cases, if a relative stranger to the case googles a topic to do with the case, the whole of the first few pages are given over to the webpages of groups / forums that are aggressive to The Mccanns. So the stranger to the case never gets to read any webpages supportive of The Mccanns. They only see one side of the discussion, much of which is myths ... and that is unjust.
4. Also images get their names altered in a minute way, such as adding a fullstop. Then the images will not open.
Or in one case, on another forum, I had posted a pleasant image of Joana Cipriano and it had later been changed for a sexy looking image of a busty, over-made-up woman in a nearly " not covering the big boobs " blouse
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 26, 2017, 01:08:23 PM
3. I have noticed that, in some cases, if a relative stranger to the case googles a topic to do with the case, the whole of the first few pages are given over to the webpages of groups / forums that are aggressive to The Mccanns. So the stranger to the case never gets to read any webpages supportive of The Mccanns. They only see one side of the discussion, much of which is myths ... and that is unjust.
4. Also images get their names altered in a minute way, such as adding a fullstop. Then the images will not open.
Or in one case, on another forum, I had posted a pleasant image of Joana Cipriano and it had later been changed for a sexy looking image of a busty, over-made-up woman in a nearly " not covering the big boobs " blouse
The internet is a dangerous and unfair place. Anything that we write can be changed by cyber criminals able to manipulate and change. A determined protest needs to happen to show our disgust against the injustices of these practices, because unless something is done about it now, soon it will be too late. The Mccanns have already suffered too much as a result of the alterations, as it seems Esther Rantzen has too.
As I said, soon it will be too late.
Maybe it already is ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 26, 2017, 03:19:36 PM
British police inspector Mark Harrison, of the National Centre for Police Excellence (NCPE), said the hounds had been used in the hunt for the murderer of Holly Wells (10) and Jessica Chapman (10) in Soham, Cambridgeshire, in August 2002.
The dogs ultimately helped bring 29-year-old school caretaker Ian Huntley to justice.
"The dogs that we have here include two from South Yorkshire Police and one of those is the only one in the world trained to detect human blood," said Insp Harrison. "The other is a victim recovery dog and helps us find human remains."
One of the dogs is the only one in the world trained to sniff out human blood.
In a joint operation between the FBI and Britain's National Crimes and Operations Faculty, the dogs have all been trained to sniff out scents which are weeks or even months old.
Det Insp Harrison said the dogs are presented with a scent which they then try to follow.
He said: "Many people think in the 21st century machines are the answer, not something hairy and smelly like a dog, but our tests show us that there is no machine that can come anywhere close to what these dogs can do.
"The scent is collected in a scientific way using a machine and the dogs will take the scent not off a person but will smell what we call a scent pad.
"Sometimes the scent hasn't even come into contact with the person. We have a machine which can suck a specific scent from the air and the dogs will follow that."
Det Insp Harrison has been involved in a number of high-profile cases. He co-ordinated a team of sniffer dogs in the search for Bromham teenager Tom Potter who went missing in January this year. His body was later found in the River Great Ouse.
He was also played a major role in the Soham murder investigation, leading three forensic teams and 20 officers in a fingertip probe of killer Ian Huntley's home. Before that he was involved in the operations to try and find Surrey schoolgirl Mily Dowler and Essex teenager Danielle Jones.
Last year Det Insp Harrison was awarded the MBE for his work in helping track down missing people.
Read more at: http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/news/specialist-joins-hunt-for-abigail-s-attacker-1-1086115
Tom Potter went missing in January and tracker dogs led police to the river.
A diving team failed to find him but a walker spotted the body several weeks later and police believe he may have been trying to find a short cut.
I'm far from convinced any dogs were involved in the investigation and one certainty is that, in 2008, the crime remained unsolved:
Quote
at, May 10, 2008, 01:00
BACKGROUND:Fundamental questions about how the victim died and where she died remain unanswered, writes RONAN McGREEVY. MEG WALSH died an horrendous death. The blows that killed her had broken her skull into pieces, and some of those fragments were found in her brain. It had been like "hitting a boiled egg", State Pathologist Dr Marie Cassidy told the jury. There was evidence of injuries to her head, shoulder and right arm as if she had been involved in a terrible struggle. Meg Walsh disappeared on Sunday, October 1st, 2006. The last independent sighting of her alive was noon that day when a neighbour, Nicky Farrell, observed her in an upstairs bedroom putting clothes away. The last activity from Meg's mobile phone was just before 2pm that day when she accessed her messaging service. Mr O'Brien said she left home at about 8.30pm on Sunday evening and drove off. She was never seen again. The alarm was raised by Noel Power, Ms Walsh's employer at Meadow Court Homes Ltd, on the following morning when Ms Walsh did not turn up for work. Despite an extensive Garda investigation and a lengthy trial, what happened to Meg Walsh on that Sunday has never been established. Fundamental questions about how she died, where she died and when her body was dumped in the River Suir remain unanswered. Instead, the prosecution depended on circumstantial evidence in their attempt to bring a case against her husband. O'Brien first met Meg Walsh in Crete in 2000 when she was on holiday with her then husband Colman Keating. The couple began an affair and she moved to Waterford in 2001. They married in October 2005. He too had been previously married. There was evidence presented to the trial that their marriage was in trouble. Ten days before she disappeared, Mr O'Brien assaulted his wife following an argument the couple had when they were out with his parents. Mr O'Brien admitted that "he lost it" with his wife on the night of September 20th. Two days later Meg Walsh presented herself to her GP, Dr Bernadette O'Leary, with bruises and swelling to the backs of her hands and her right shoulder. She also reported the assault to the Garda, but declined to press charges. Instead, she contacted her solicitor and bank manager about having the house transferred into her name. Mr O'Brien told the jury that, following the assault, he had agreed to sign over the house to her "just to prove it would never happen again" and had agreed to loan her €11,000 to pay off credit card debts. On the night before she disappeared, the couple spent the night drinking at the Woodlands Hotel near their home in the company of a mutual friend, Owen Walsh. They invited Mr Walsh back to the house and she suggested that he stay the night. She showed him to the spare room, while Mr O'Brien went downstairs to turn off the lights. He then flew into a rage when he found the pair kissing in the spare bedroom. In his first statement made to gardaí on October 2nd, he recalled: "I opened the door and saw Meg and Owen Walsh with their hands around each other, kissing. I said: What the f**k is going on? They stopped and Owen said: 'Sorry, sorry'". Mr Walsh later told the jury it was only a goodnight kiss. Ms Walsh's disappearance prompted one of the biggest searches ever seen in the area. At one stage 2,000 people were involved. Her daughter Sasha Keating and brother James Walsh made a public appeal for information. Her body eventually surfaced at Meagher Quay in Waterford city on October 15th. John O'Brien was first arrested in December 2006 and was charged with her murder on June 22nd, 2007. In the court, the prosecution relied on inconsistencies in his evidence and modern technological paraphernalia of CCTV footage, mobile phone movements and an electronic key fob. He said he had gone to Tramore that Sunday to read the newspapers before returning home at around 5pm. However, CCTV footage picked up his car in Waterford City Centre that evening and he was spotted by the River Suir at 5.35pm. When it was put to him in evidence, Mr O'Brien said he may have been mistaken about the time. When other allegations were put to him about inconsistencies in his evidence, he said that he had never thought her disappearance would lead to a murder investigation. Ms Walsh's Mitsubishi Carisma was central to the prosecution case. Prosecution counsel Dominic McGinn said the car was "the real crime scene" as it was covered in her blood. The car was found abandoned in the car park of the Uluru pub in Waterford city on October 4th. CCTV footage was shown to the jury which purported to show Mr O'Brien parking the car at 10.03 pm on October 2nd, walking back to the Tesco Car Park where his own car was parked and then driving home, arriving there at 10.11pm, when he deactivated the alarm. The prosecution also sought to argue that whoever killed Meg Walsh must have had a key fob to the Mitsubishi Carisma as it had been closed remotely and the only person who had such a key was Mr O'Brien. However, the car may also have proved to be crucial in his defence. On the final day of evidence, a witness, Gregory Manberg, told the court that he had seen Ms Walsh's Carisma being driven around at 6.20pm on Tuesday, October 2nd, at the time when Mr O'Brien was giving a statement to gardaí about his wife's disappearance. A unanimous verdict of not guilty was a serious rebuff to investigating gardaí. And still the question remains: who killed Meg Walsh?
Can't really see much evidence of a role for a dog in any of that lot ....
The internet is a dangerous and unfair place. Anything that we write can be changed by cyber criminals able to manipulate and change. A determined protest needs to happen to show our disgust against the injustices of these practices, because unless something is done about it now, soon it will be too late. The Mccanns have already suffered too much as a result of the alterations, as it seems Esther Rantzen has too.
As I said, soon it will be too late.
Maybe it already is ?
I think you need to do some research to understand how the internet and search engines work and how ownership and update rights to websites and managed.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 26, 2017, 11:34:05 PM
Det Insp Harrison said the dogs are presented with a scent which they then try to follow.
He said: "Many people think in the 21st century machines are the answer, not something hairy and smelly like a dog, but our tests show us that there is no machine that can come anywhere close to what these dogs can do.
Inspector Promotion Examinations - OSPRE CENTREX June 2001 Qualified to the rank of Inspector.
National Policing Improvement Agency Wyboston Lakes, Great North Road, Wybmion, Bedfordshire, MK44 3BY, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 (0)87XX XXXXXX Web: http://www.npia.police.uk
Mark Harrison MBE National Search Adviser Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters Email: markha&n@npia.pnn.police.uk Dlrect dlal: +44797XXXXXXX
Det Insp Harrison said the dogs are presented with a scent which they then try to follow.
He said: "Many people think in the 21st century machines are the answer, not something hairy and smelly like a dog, but our tests show us that there is no machine that can come anywhere close to what these dogs can do.
Inspector Promotion Examinations - OSPRE CENTREX June 2001 Qualified to the rank of Inspector.
National Policing Improvement Agency Wyboston Lakes, Great North Road, Wybmion, Bedfordshire, MK44 3BY, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 (0)87XX XXXXXX Web: http://www.npia.police.uk
Mark Harrison MBE National Search Adviser Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters Email: markha&n@npia.pnn.police.uk Dlrect dlal: +44797XXXXXXX
I don't have to. Common sense should tell you that. It is a conflict of interest.
Why?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2017, 09:02:34 AM
Contact Ralph Riegel and prove it. rriegel@independent.ie
Top dog team used to help gardai sniff out clues - Ralph Riegel PUBLISHED 19/10/2006 | 00:11
THE vicious killer of mother-of-one Margaret 'Meg' Walsh is now being hunted by an elite British police dog team who were successfully used in the Soham murder inquiry.
The dogs were brought to Waterford to help gardai with their probe into the murder of Meg Walsh (35) on October 1. The animals recently helped the FBI track down a multiple murderer in Nashville, Tennessee.
The four dogs include the spaniel, Keela, the only known animal in the world capable of detecting and following a human blood-scent.
British police inspector Mark Harrison, of the National Centre for Police Excellence (NCPE), said the hounds had been used in the hunt for the murderer of Holly Wells (10) and Jessica Chapman (10) in Soham, Cambridgeshire, in August 2002. The dogs ultimately helped bring 29-year-old school caretaker Ian Huntley to justice.
"The dogs that we have here include two from South Yorkshire Police and one of those is the only one in the world trained to detect human blood," said Insp Harrison. "The other is a victim recovery dog and helps us find human remains."
"The other two dogs are specially trained to follow a specific scent, an individual scent," he added.
Mr Harrison said that the dog unit was deployed in Waterford after gardai there had asked for "special assistance" in relation to the case of Margaret Walsh.
The British dog teams were yesterday working on multiple sites around Waterford, including Ms Walsh's Ballinakill home. "These dogs assist us in what we call investigative intelligence - they help us to piece together the jigsaw of the sequence of events that may have happened in this case," said Inspector Harrison..
"In addition to that they look for hard and physical evidence. By way of example, the human blood dog can detect blood that is not visible to the human eye."
Insp Harrison added that the team were pleased with their work to date in Waterford. "We have detected quite a few things of interest of intelligence and we will continue to do that," he said. "The picture at the moment is quite incomplete and we will be working with the Garda detectives in hopefully completing the sequence of events."
The skilled team have also helped deliver crucial breakthroughs in previous cases such as the horrific murder of Attracta Harron in Northern Ireland.
It is expected the British dog team will conclude their work on the Meg Walsh case today but they will be available for longer.
The second enquiry, two dogs deployed AND two handlers.
The photograph of 4 dogs from South Wales, WITH 4 handlers.
An FOI answer by South Yorkshire Police about Grime that confirms that, during his SYP career, he would either be deployed alone with Eddie, or with another dog, Frankie, AND another handler, Ellis.
Confirmation by Misty that Keela's handler was Ellis.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
Actually, a cite is demanded and I can (now) provide one.
The Hamburg carpet-square experiment is (unwisely) trumpeted by aficionados of Grime and his work, even though it is scarcely helpful to Mr Grime since that was an experiment driven by the principle of cross-contamination, ignored by Grime at PdL (I digress).
From that report comes this:
Quote
The reliability and accuracy of the dog’s signals may be enhanced if at least two or more trained cadaver dog/handler teams are used independently and at one crime scene. The teams are then able to compare their dog’s signaling behavior. This process would lend additional support during the presentation of the findings of cadaver dogs in a court of law
In that experiment, a number of dogs were used, each dog having its own handler.
Actually, a cite is demanded and I can (now) provide one.
The Hamburg carpet-square experiment is (unwisely) trumpeted by aficionados of Grime and his work, even though it is scarcely helpful to Mr Grime since that was an experiment driven by the principle of cross-contamination, ignored by Grime at PdL (I digress).
From that report comes this:
In that experiment, a number of dogs were each dog having its own handler.
Actually, a cite is demanded and I can (now) provide one.
The Hamburg carpet-square experiment is (unwisely) trumpeted by aficionados of Grime and his work, even though it is scarcely helpful to Mr Grime since that was an experiment driven by the principle of cross-contamination, ignored by Grime at PdL (I digress).
From that report comes this:
In that experiment, a number of dogs were used, each dog having its own handler.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 28, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
Many times its written that Cadaver alerts take 90 min's from death,in the paper quoted by ferryman they answer with this.
Quote
The most interesting question of all remains: that of how long must an individual be dead for his /her scent to be detectable by a trained cadaver dog ? Answering this pertinent question was not part of our investigation, but we can point out that a postmortem interval of 2 h seems to be a safely recognizable interval for the detection of deceased tissue by trained cadaver dogs
So where does the 90 mins come from? which paper?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2017, 01:31:57 PM
Many times its written that Cadaver alerts take 90 min's from death,in the paper quoted by ferryman they answer with this.
So where does the 90 mins come from? which paper?
The original study (which I have read, and would need to find again), I think, stated a soonest time of response of 90 minutes; but a typical, or average, time of two to three hours.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
Is the mentioned paper the foremost paper on Cadaver alerts?
there is almost no scientific eveidence behind the alerts...they simply have not been investigated...thats why they cannot be accepted as reliable evidence
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 03:42:17 PM
there is almost no scientific eveidence behind the alerts...they simply have not been investigated...thats why they cannot be accepted as reliable evidence
In the multiplicity of dog threads on this forum there have been numerous cited references to scientific evidence behind dog alerts.
That is not the reason why they are not accepted as evidence in court without forensic support.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 04:06:14 PM
There are almost no scientific studies to support the alerts If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence They do not exist
There are dozens, probably hundreds.
You cannot cite a study in a court room, then make the leap to asserting that an alert on its own is evidence that meets the standard required by a court, because it doesn't.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 04:18:37 PM
You cannot cite a study in a court room, then make the leap to asserting that an alert on its own is evidence that meets the standard required by a court, because it doesn't.
There are not dozens or probably hundreds Where are they I've been posting reviews the dogs for 10 yrs and have only seen two I have not cited any study in a court room Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts There is none
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 04:29:20 PM
You cannot cite a study in a court room, then make the leap to asserting that an alert on its own is evidence that meets the standard required by a court, because it doesn't.
So could you provide a cite for these dozens or hundreds of scientific studies which support the alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 04:32:57 PM
There are not dozens or probably hundreds Where are they I've been posting reviews the dogs for 10 yrs and have only seen two I have not cited any study in a court room Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts There is none
"If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence" is where you raised the idea that studies could be cited in court and used as evidence.
Tell you what - give the cites for the only two studies you have seen and we can take it from there. Scientific studies always daisy-chain in the journals.
"Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts"? Did he get that information from scientific studies? Surely you are not claiming he fabricated it?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 04:41:30 PM
So could you provide a cite for these dozens or hundreds of scientific studies which support the alerts
I don't need to.
I have made clear that such studies exist, but that is insufficient for a court to accept them as evidence, in the absence of supporting evidence.
You made a bald assertion about the absence of such studies. I am simply flagging up for anyone interested in the dogs that this is incorrect.
Anyone interested in the topic should be smart enough to work out that your bald assertion has been challenged. So anyone interested in the topic can do their own digging. I am not interested in the topic. And I do not intend acting as someone's research assistant.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 04:53:05 PM
I have made clear that such studies exist, but that is insufficient for a court to accept them as evidence, in the absence of supporting evidence.
You made a bald assertion about the absence of such studies. I am simply flagging up for anyone interested in the dogs that this is incorrect.
Anyone interested in the topic should be smart enough to work out that your bald assertion has been challenged. So anyone interested in the topic can do their own digging. I am not interested in the topic. And I do not intend acting as someone's research assistant.
You have not made it clear such studies exist You have made a claim that they do but have not supplied any evidence they do That makes your claim simply your opinion and you are totally wrong
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 04:54:32 PM
"If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence" is where you raised the idea that studies could be cited in court and used as evidence.
Tell you what - give the cites for the only two studies you have seen and we can take it from there. Scientific studies always daisy-chain in the journals.
"Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts"? Did he get that information from scientific studies? Surely you are not claiming he fabricated it?
Your claim is false There are not any number of scientific studies
Gerry got that information from the lack of scientific studies
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2017, 05:40:15 PM
Many times its written that Cadaver alerts take 90 min's from death,in the paper quoted by ferryman they answer with this.
So where does the 90 mins come from? which paper?
Found it:
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Quote
PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2017, 05:53:29 PM
TRIALS BEGUN: January 1997 NUMBER OF DOGS USED: Five different dogs POST-MORTEM INTERVAL RANGE: From 70 minutes to 3 days NUMBER OF TRIALS COMPLETED: As of July 1997, total of 52 trials completed PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.
NOTES: We emphasize our inability to control all variables during our project. It has been impossible for us to obtain scent samples and carry out the trials under strictly controlled conditions. We had no control over the environmental conditions under which our samples were gathered, manner and cause of death, nor could we exercise tight regulation over the quantity of samples of any one given time interval. Since there are periods in which our samples are few and far between, this project has no set deadline and will be ongoing for a time. Our intention is not to offer an absolute answer to the questions posed, but to initiate an ongoing dialogue and offer what we hope is a point of departure for other exciting research projects. This will shed light on the under-navigated and sometimes mysterious arena of canine olfaction applied to body recovery.
It is important to note what the dogs are not being asked to do, as well as what they are being asked to do. They are not choosing from a lineup of actual human tissue, but only from gauze pads for which great care has been taken to expose them only to dry skin regions, not to any blood or perceivable body fluids. Also note that the exposure time is exactly 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 06:07:17 PM
There is no evidence that remnant scent would still be present 3 months after any death and simple physics would make this unlikely. As to the alert outside in the flower bed there is no evidence remnant scent would last outside for 3 months
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 28, 2017, 06:47:25 PM
Found this - http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/cadaver-dogs-science-training-1.3654993
Read the part titled 'PIG PROBLEM' according to this woman, she did an experiment using chicken, pig and cow with cadaver dogs and she said the pig was the one that smelt least like human, she said which is a problem for cadaver dog trainers in the UK, she says if they are trained on pig then they will search for pig. Yet Grime said they couldn't tell the difference between pig and human remains, very confusing.
Also this bit - If handlers weren't using blind testing (where the handler doesn't know the location of the target scent) or double blind testing (where both the handler and test adjudicator don't know the target) then the dogs could simply be picking up on unconscious cues from the handler, not the scent itself.
Mmmm
You know what I'm wondering if these cadaver dogs in the UK just go by the smell of decomposing blood.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 28, 2017, 07:01:15 PM
Found this - http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/cadaver-dogs-science-training-1.3654993
Read the part titled 'PIG PROBLEM' according to this woman, she did an experiment using chicken, pig and cow with cadaver dogs and she said the pig was the one that smelt least like human, she said which is a problem for cadaver dog trainers in the UK, she says if they are trained on pig then they will search for pig. Yet Grime said they couldn't tell the difference between pig and human remains, very confusing.
Also this bit - If handlers weren't using blind testing (where the handler doesn't know the location of the target scent) or double blind testing (where both the handler and test adjudicator don't know the target) then the dogs could simply be picking up on unconscious cues from the handler, not the scent itself.
Mmmm
You know what I'm wondering if these cadaver dogs in the UK just go by the smell of decomposing blood.
From the article Lace links to above:
Quote
She conducted a study on the compounds of human decomposition compared to those of cows, pigs and chickens.
The smell of decomposing pigs was least similar to that of humans, which is a problem for cadaver dog trainers in the U.K., where it's illegal to possess human remains.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Lace on January 28, 2017, 07:25:20 PM
From another article in America -
I’ll be honest: if this book were simply one woman’s transformative relationship with her working dog, I probably wouldn’t be covering it. As interesting and valuable as that story is, this blog needs that next layer — the whys and hows behind dogs and the dog-human relationship. How does a dog start as a dog with a nose and become a dog who uses his nose to stop beside a corpse under a canopy of trees in the woods? How do dogs learn that dead squirrels and rotting trees are not the end goal and should be ignored? Warren explains that researchers are slowly learning about the volatile organic compounds released from human remains. Additionally, while “…we humans smell much more like chicken than pig when we decompose,” cadaver detection dogs should only be trained on human remains. (To that I am obliged to add, ‘One day you will smell (somewhat) like a dead chicken’).
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 07:34:43 PM
So no scientific studies produces tha support the alerts because there aren't any As I said previously
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 28, 2017, 07:44:28 PM
'The Search for a Volatile Human Specific Marker in the Decomposition Process'
"The present study showed that our rigorous training procedure leads to a very high level of identification in human odour matching-to-sample tasks, with dogs alerting to target odours in 85 ± 4% of cases and never alerting to non-target human odours (100% specificity). According to Jezierski et al. (2014, [36]), high detection scores should be regarded as exceptional and indeed dubious as they depend on a variety of factors such as odour presentation method, odour source and, of course, individual differences in dogs’ olfactory detection thresholds. The present data confirm this attitude, inasmuch as sensitivity was critically dependent on the type of odour presentation during the task and specificity dependent on the dog’s breeding (FAs made exclusively by Belgian Shepherds)."
...............................
'This one specifically looks at cadaver dog performance. You might have to go to a different site to read the full text'
"The present study showed that our rigorous training procedure leads to a very high level of identification in human odour matching-to-sample tasks, with dogs alerting to target odours in 85 ± 4% of cases and never alerting to non-target human odours (100% specificity). According to Jezierski et al. (2014, [36]), high detection scores should be regarded as exceptional and indeed dubious as they depend on a variety of factors such as odour presentation method, odour source and, of course, individual differences in dogs’ olfactory detection thresholds. The present data confirm this attitude, inasmuch as sensitivity was critically dependent on the type of odour presentation during the task and specificity dependent on the dog’s breeding (FAs made exclusively by Belgian Shepherds)."
what it says is taht dogs recognise cadaver odour...we know that
what it doesnt tell us is how reliable an alert is....can you not see that
read what it says in red
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 28, 2017, 08:28:16 PM
From the article. "These markers would allow a more efficiently training of cadaver dogs or portable detection devices could be developed."
Your contention that the process of cadaver decomposition had not been studied is totally inaccurate.
Further, that article is stuffed with references to previous studies.
The idea that cadaver decomposition and dog capability has not been scientifically studied is unfounded.
The scientists have been trying to work out what goes on in a doggie nose and how to improve it in study after study ... after study .... etc.
you need to look back at the post at what I said I said theere are no studies to support the alerts and there are not. There has been no scientific study of how accurtae the alerts are.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 09:24:30 PM
There are almost no scientific studies to support the alerts If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence They do not exist
so where are the studies which support the alerts...where are the studies that show how accurate they are
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 09:25:47 PM
There are almost no scientific studies to support the alerts If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence They do not exist
so where are the studies which support the alerts...where are the studies that show how accurate they are
Here we go round the mulberry bush. If you discard all the studies on the accuracy of the dogs, then you can claim there are none. It will not change reality.
It's not an issue of the studies, of which the links here show there are dozens. And as I said earlier, the norm in reported science studies is that they daisy-chain into dozens more.
The issue is supporting evidence, such as forensics.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 09:43:35 PM
Here we go round the mulberry bush. If you discard all the studies on the accuracy of the dogs, then you can claim there are none. It will not change reality.
It's not an issue of the studies, of which the links here show there are dozens. And as I said earlier, the norm in reported science studies is that they daisy-chain into dozens more.
The issue is supporting evidence, such as forensics.
none of the studies cited give us any guide as to the accuracy of the alerts....none
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 09:48:28 PM
"The present study showed that our rigorous training procedure leads to a very high level of identification in human odour matching-to-sample tasks, with dogs alerting to target odours in 85 ± 4% of cases and never alerting to non-target human odours (100% specificity). According to Jezierski et al. (2014, [36]), high detection scores should be regarded as exceptional and indeed dubious as they depend on a variety of factors such as odour presentation method, odour source and, of course, individual differences in dogs’ olfactory detection thresholds. The present data confirm this attitude, inasmuch as sensitivity was critically dependent on the type of odour presentation during the task and specificity dependent on the dog’s breeding (FAs made exclusively by Belgian Shepherds)."
...............................
'This one specifically looks at cadaver dog performance. You might have to go to a different site to read the full text'
this article does not seem to be about cadaver dogs at all......its about matching suspects to a crime scene via their odour...so nothing to do with cadaver dogs at all
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 09:50:51 PM
this article does not seem to be about cadaver dogs at all......its about matching suspects to a crime scene via their odour...
Try the second link if the first does not agree with you.
"Cadaver dogs: Unscientific myth or reliable biological devices?
Highlights
•We aimed to detect the reliability of dogs trained to locate human cadaveric blood. •We adopted an optimized and rigorously controlled experimental design. •The primary detection task was human cadaveric blood at very low concentrations. •Dogs’ discriminative capability among confounding substances was also investigated. •Dogs represent a scientifically unassailable tool in detecting human blood traces."
and
"Our results revealed that well trained dogs were able to detect human cadaveric blood samples even when very low concentrations of blood were stored in the tubes"
Dog capability has been studied by scientists. On dozens of occasions.
It is still not relevant in court.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
Try the second link if the first does not agree with you.
"Cadaver dogs: Unscientific myth or reliable biological devices?
Highlights
•We aimed to detect the reliability of dogs trained to locate human cadaveric blood. •We adopted an optimized and rigorously controlled experimental design. •The primary detection task was human cadaveric blood at very low concentrations. •Dogs’ discriminative capability among confounding substances was also investigated. •Dogs represent a scientifically unassailable tool in detecting human blood traces."
and
"Our results revealed that well trained dogs were able to detect human cadaveric blood samples even when very low concentrations of blood were stored in the tubes"
Dog capability has been studied by scientists. On dozens of occasions.
It is still not relevant in court.
#this article is about detecting remnants of cadaveric blood.....not remnant scent
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 28, 2017, 10:05:22 PM
Try the second link if the first does not agree with you.
"Cadaver dogs: Unscientific myth or reliable biological devices?
Highlights
•We aimed to detect the reliability of dogs trained to locate human cadaveric blood. •We adopted an optimized and rigorously controlled experimental design. •The primary detection task was human cadaveric blood at very low concentrations. •Dogs’ discriminative capability among confounding substances was also investigated. •Dogs represent a scientifically unassailable tool in detecting human blood traces."
and
"Our results revealed that well trained dogs were able to detect human cadaveric blood samples even when very low concentrations of blood were stored in the tubes"
Dog capability has been studied by scientists. On dozens of occasions.
It is still not relevant in court.
You're wasting your time S.I.L.
He won't acknowledge what is there for anyone to read.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 10:08:25 PM
I did not say such studies "supported the accuracy of the alerts".
You claimed there were no such scientific studies. And that Gerry had expertise in dog capability.
Did they test dead horse in that first link? Horse of the flogged variety?
I wonder if the talho in Portelas sells cavalo? I'm sure I can lay my hands on a recipe or adapt beef bourguignon.
Quote from: davel on Today at 04:06:14 PM There are almost no scientific studies to support the alerts If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence They do not exist There are dozens, probably hundreds.
the post is still there
i said there are no scientific studies to support the alerts.....youu said there were dozedns posiibly hundreds
you are now trying to say something different
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:17:23 PM
When did you shift the goalposts to remnant scent?
What do the dogs do to detect cadaveric blood? Lick it? Or scent it?
i talked about the alerts...the ones in this case...the ones you said can only be confirmed by forensic evidence..
the ones we have been discussing...the ones relating to remnant scent
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 10:20:56 PM
Here's what you said.
"Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts."
And what I asked was "Did he get that information from scientific studies? Surely you are not claiming he fabricated it?"
You claimed Gerry had expertise in the science of the dog alerts, whilst simultaneously claiming there were nearly no scientific studies of dog capability.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:23:07 PM
"Gerry was right re the science behind the alerts."
And what I asked was "Did he get that information from scientific studies? Surely you are not claiming he fabricated it?"
You claimed Gerry had expertise in the science of the dog alerts, whilst simultaneously claiming there were nearly no scientific studies of dog capability.
I said gerry was right.....i did not say he had expertise in the science of dog alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 10:25:03 PM
Quote from: davel on Today at 04:06:14 PM There are almost no scientific studies to support the alerts If there were these could be cited in court and used in evidence They do not exist There are dozens, probably hundreds.
the post is still there
i said there are no scientific studies to support the alerts.....youu said there were dozedns posiibly hundreds
you are now trying to say something different
Scientific studies. Dozens. Hundreds. Investigating every aspect of cadaver dog alerts known to man, or beast.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:29:12 PM
Scientific studies. Dozens. Hundreds. Investigating every aspect of cadaver dog alerts known to man, or beast.
im not sure what that post is trying to show your original post did not include the line about man or beasts...you have changed it
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 10:30:27 PM
Are you now saying that when Gerry says the dogs are incredibly unreliable, we should dismiss his claim on the basis that there are no scientific studies? To prove the dogs are unreliable one needs evidence. Where is it?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:31:03 PM
You cannot cite a study in a court room, then make the leap to asserting that an alert on its own is evidence that meets the standard required by a court, because it doesn't.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 28, 2017, 10:32:59 PM
Are you now saying that when Gerry says the dogs are incredibly unreliable, we should dismiss his claim on the basis that there are no scientific studies? To prove the dogs are unreliable one needs evidence. Where is it?
gerry like me is a scientist...there is no evidence either way so we dont know if the alerts are reliable...
we can therefore not accept them as relaible...therefore they are unrelaible
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:34:45 PM
If the alerts aren't reliable the police wouldn't use CSI and VRD's
the police use these dogs to find evidence...that is their value...the alerts themselves have no value
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 10:45:36 PM
the police take a dog to a crime scene over two hours he alerts 100 times and nothing is found he then alerts and a speck of blood is found which turns out to be crucial the fact that the dog has made 100 false alerts is not important...he has solved the case
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2017, 10:53:10 PM
the police take a dog to a crime scene over two hours he alerts 100 times and nothing is found he then alerts and a speck of blood is found which turns out to be crucial the fact that the dog has made 100 false alerts is not important...he has solved the case
That just proves to me that you don't understand how these specialised dogs work. These dogs are extremely successful at what they do, they are an invaluable tool in the recovery of victims. The foremost police forces in the world use them constantly as no mechanical method has yet been invented to detect cadaver odour. If a cadaver dogs alerts after a proper deployment one can be sure that he or she found the target scent.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 11:04:18 PM
That just proves to me that you don't understand how these specialised dogs work. These dogs are extremely successful at what they do, they are an invaluable tool in the recovery of victims. The foremost police forces in the world use them constantly as no mechanical method has yet been invented to detect cadaver odour.
i agree the dogs are invaluable in what they do and what they are good at....but we do not know how significant an unconfirmed alert is
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 28, 2017, 11:10:14 PM
I quoted a hypothetical situation.... I understand exactly how these dogs work
what is absolutely true is taht the value in these dogs is in the evidence they find...not in unconfirmed alerts
The dogs can alert without finding evidence which then leads to further searches when evidence can be found. Had the dogs not alerted the evidence would have been lost. The value of such dogs can never be underestimated.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2017, 11:13:25 PM
The dogs can alert without finding evidence which then leads to further searches when evidence can be found. Had the dogs not alerted the evidence would have been lost. The value of such dogs can never be underestimated.
I understimate the value of the dogs but an alert without evidence is pretty useless...the dogs are invaluable at finding evidence...that is their job
the alerts themselves are not reliable a s evidence
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2017, 11:28:39 PM
gerry like me is a scientist...there is no evidence either way so we dont know if the alerts are reliable...
we can therefore not accept them as reliable...therefore they are unrelaible
Let me see ... there is no evidence either way becomes... therefore they are unreliable? Really?
What "there is no evidence either way" would mean is "there is no evidence either way".
But the problem with your argument is that there is evidence. There are scientific studies. Similar dogs are used frequently by various law authorities. You appear to be saying OG made fools of themselves by deploying two unreliable dogs in Luz in June 2014.
I wonder what Gerry thought of the use of those 'unreliable' dogs in the search for Madeleine. Was he miffed?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 29, 2017, 12:25:27 AM
So the dogs are reliable, and as the dogs alerted in Apartment 5a there must have been a corpse in there and it was most probably Madeleine's despite the lack of any corroborating evidence, is that the correct conclusion to be drawn then?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 29, 2017, 12:39:59 AM
Here is an example of why the dogs alerts should not be taken as 100% reliable.
The dog & handler team in question (Tracy Sargent, impressive CV) is reportedly one of the best in the USA. The search was undertaken 11 months after young Deorr had disappeared and after the terrain had been covered by deep snow for 7 months. 5 alerts, only one corroborated by a buried bloodied towel.
*snipped* Investigator Sargent reports the “Chance” whom is a trained cadaver dog hit five different unknown targets. Chance is trained on human decomposition and human blood pathogen decomposition.
The following are the hits (limited) :
1. “Diaper Tree Area” – This is the area to which it was testified that “a diaper” was hung in the tree in the campground. 2. 139 Feet East of the Cattle Guard in the camp ground – in a loose ground area. 3. 10 Feet Due East of camp site. 4. 2.24 miles due Northeast of the 15 mp stake, in the ravine near 221 southeast fence. 5. Camp site ground .75 miles due East of the camp ground.
Area 1 : There was no evidence obtained. Area 2 : Excavation was undertaken by LE and KIC – this area needs to be further exhumed and was turned over to Law Enforcement for further investigation by their team. Area 3 : This area was excavated by hand – and found that a previous animal had been buried at this location. During the burial the subject who did the burial cut his hand and bled into a towel wrapped around the animal. Area 4 : Investigators have turned this area over to law enforcement. Area 5 : Investigators believe this site may have been a “holding site” for some type of human body.
There was no other evidence found.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 29, 2017, 12:44:12 AM
So the dogs are reliable, and as the dogs alerted in Apartment 5a there must have been a corpse in there and it was most probably Madeleine's despite the lack of any corroborating evidence, is that the correct conclusion to be drawn then?
Alfie, this claim and logic is as flawed as Davel's.
There are scientific studies re the dogs. Fact.
The dogs are widely used by law enforcement agencies. Fact. Including OG. Fact.
Corroborating evidence is required. Fact.
And that was established probably 8 to 10 pages back, so I am sure forum viewers are getting bored with claims otherwise. I know I am. Mind you, it is good for getting to sleep at night. Goodnight.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 29, 2017, 03:13:10 AM
So the dogs are reliable, and as the dogs alerted in Apartment 5a there must have been a corpse in there and it was most probably Madeleine's despite the lack of any corroborating evidence, is that the correct conclusion to be drawn then?
This was the conclusion I came to as well, but since the sighting by Gerry at 9:05 of Madeleine would preclude the cadaver odour coming from her.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 29, 2017, 09:08:16 AM
I dont understimate the value of the dogs but an alert without evidence is pretty useless...the dogs are invaluable at finding evidence...that is their job
the alerts themselves are not reliable a s evidence
It could be said that the word abduction is not reliable as evidence and thats why OG after multi pillions of pounds and 5 yrs have produced zilch.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 09:28:53 AM
Let me see ... there is no evidence either way becomes... therefore they are unreliable? Really?
What "there is no evidence either way" would mean is "there is no evidence either way".
But the problem with your argument is that there is evidence. There are scientific studies. Similar dogs are used frequently by various law authorities. You appear to be saying OG made fools of themselves by deploying two unreliable dogs in Luz in June 2014.
I wonder what Gerry thought of the use of those 'unreliable' dogs in the search for Madeleine. Was he miffed?
Your knowledge and understanding of the dogs is flawed and your argument is muddled
The dogs are reliable at finding evidence That is what makes them valuable
The alerts themselves where no evidence is found are unreliable Grime tells us they are unreliable as evidence
Harrison confirms this and tells us no inferences can be drawn from the alerts
The dogs are used worldwide to find evidence That is their value
The argument can be settled very simply by answering this question
What do the alerts in PDL tell us They tell us nothing....fact
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 29, 2017, 09:46:29 AM
What do the alerts in PDL tell us They tell us nothing....fact
Snipped,they tell us that the dogs alerted to what disciplines they were trained in,what they do not tell is to whom the alerts belong to,that is where forensics come in or not as the case maybe.If the case rested solely and wholly on the dog alerts it maybe could be understood the angst they cause,as it it and quite rightly pointed out as they stand at the moment they point at no one.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 09:54:26 AM
Snipped,they tell us that the dogs alerted to what disciplines they were trained in,what they do not tell is to whom the alerts belong to,that is where forensics come in or not as the case maybe.If the case rested solely and wholly on the dog alerts it maybe could be understood the angst they cause,as it it and quite rightly pointed out as they stand at the moment they point at no one.
We do not know what the dogs alerted to Grime was asked but could not confirm He says they suggest cadaver odour but does not confirm this
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2017, 10:29:03 AM
We do not know what the dogs alerted to Grime was asked but could not confirm He says they suggest cadaver odour but does not confirm this
Unlike some, police officers do not present their beliefs as facts. It's clear that Grime had a lot of faith in the abilities of his dogs and that he believed they had alerted to the scents they were trained to find. He also understood the role of the dogs; to help investigators to find evidence which could be used to bring a prosecution. The alerts suggested a possibility but the forensics didn't confirm it. Were the alerts useless therefore? Not really, because the possibility remains on the table.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 10:36:10 AM
Unlike some, police officers do not present their beliefs as facts. It's clear that Grime had a lot of faith in the abilities of his dogs and that he believed they had alerted to the scents they were trained to find. He also understood the role of the dogs; to help investigators to find evidence which could be used to bring a prosecution. The alerts suggested a possibility but the forensics didn't confirm it. Were the alerts useless therefore? Not really, because the possibility remains on the table.
Grime had an opportunity to say in his opinion the dogs alerted to cadaver odour He didn't do it What grime believes is not important... There are 3 separate sources that tell us the alerts are unreliable as evidence You can believe what you like As can Grime But that's all it is Belief
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 29, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
Unlike some, police officers do not present their beliefs as facts. It's clear that Grime had a lot of faith in the abilities of his dogs and that he believed they had alerted to the scents they were trained to find. He also understood the role of the dogs; to help investigators to find evidence which could be used to bring a prosecution. The alerts suggested a possibility but the forensics didn't confirm it. Were the alerts useless therefore? Not really, because the possibility remains on the table.
Eddie was trained to find blood.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: barrier on January 29, 2017, 11:07:48 AM
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 11:58:56 AM
The facts are which some find it difficult to accept
The dogs are reliable at finding evidence
The alerts themselves where no evidence is found are not reliable. If they have no reliability as evidence then they are not reliable. this is confirmed by Grime...Harrison and in the report on the fiasco in Jersey which is highly critical of grimes role and highly critical on the faith shown in the alerts by lenny Harper.
The bottom line is we do not know what eddie alerted to in PDL which is further confirmed by the belief of OG that she may still be alive
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 12:37:25 PM
Grime also says....
SUMMARY
The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or Human blood.
the role of the dogs is to secure evidence which is what i have been saying for some years
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 29, 2017, 01:17:43 PM
The police in the Kate Prout case were told different when Eddie alerted and it wasn't for blood. The police were told exactly what Eddie had alerted to and they knew what had to be done. Kate's serial lying husband was not going to get away with murder.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 01:35:12 PM
The police in the Kate Prout case were told different when Eddie alerted and it wasn't for blood. The police were told exactly what Eddie had alerted to and they knew what had to be done. Kate's serial lying husband was not going to get away with murder.
The evidence against Prout was circumstantial. He took an age before reporting Kate "missing".
All credit cards and bank accounts of Kate's remained untouched from the point she disappeared.
Prout was known to have a volatile temper.
But it was the untouched bank accounts that was the main one.
Eddie alerted nowhere near where Prout strangled, then buried, Kate.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 29, 2017, 03:47:36 PM
Snipped,they tell us that the dogs alerted to what disciplines they were trained in,what they do not tell is to whom the alerts belong to,that is where forensics come in or not as the case maybe.If the case rested solely and wholly on the dog alerts it maybe could be understood the angst they cause,as it it and quite rightly pointed out as they stand at the moment they point at no one.
We witnessed Eddie disregarding his and every other working dog's trained response in Praia da Luz on those occasions when he picked up items in his mouth ... some of which were the subject of alerts.
Which casts doubt on the significance of any supposed associated information because it indicates an unreliable over excited animal incapable of following recognised practice.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 03:49:07 PM
We witnessed Eddie disregarding his and every other working dog's trained response in Praia da Luz on those occasions when he picked up items in his mouth ... some of which were the subject of alerts.
Which casts doubt on the significance of any supposed associated information because it indicates an unreliable over excited animal incapable of following recognised practice.
Yet another layman's view.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 03:56:29 PM
So the dogs are reliable, and as the dogs alerted in Apartment 5a there must have been a corpse in there and it was most probably Madeleine's despite the lack of any corroborating evidence, is that the correct conclusion to be drawn then?
You really haven't a clue what an alert means.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:12:23 PM
Here is an example of why the dogs alerts should not be taken as 100% reliable.
The dog & handler team in question (Tracy Sargent, impressive CV) is reportedly one of the best in the USA. The search was undertaken 11 months after young Deorr had disappeared and after the terrain had been covered by deep snow for 7 months. 5 alerts, only one corroborated by a buried bloodied towel.
*snipped* Investigator Sargent reports the “Chance” whom is a trained cadaver dog hit five different unknown targets. Chance is trained on human decomposition and human blood pathogen decomposition.
The following are the hits (limited) :
1. “Diaper Tree Area” – This is the area to which it was testified that “a diaper” was hung in the tree in the campground. 2. 139 Feet East of the Cattle Guard in the camp ground – in a loose ground area. 3. 10 Feet Due East of camp site. 4. 2.24 miles due Northeast of the 15 mp stake, in the ravine near 221 southeast fence. 5. Camp site ground .75 miles due East of the camp ground.
Area 1 : There was no evidence obtained. Area 2 : Excavation was undertaken by LE and KIC – this area needs to be further exhumed and was turned over to Law Enforcement for further investigation by their team. Area 3 : This area was excavated by hand – and found that a previous animal had been buried at this location. During the burial the subject who did the burial cut his hand and bled into a towel wrapped around the animal. Area 4 : Investigators have turned this area over to law enforcement. Area 5 : Investigators believe this site may have been a “holding site” for some type of human body.
There was no other evidence found.
A dog will find the scent of whatever it is trained to find. They are 100% reliable.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 05:13:36 PM
So according to Grime it's possible that Eddie alerted to cadaver odour He doesn't mention a cadaver
So the dogs tell us its possible But we already know that We already know Maddie may have died in the apartment
You fail to understand that finding cadaver scent in 5a doesn't mean she expired there. In fact had she died in 5a there would have been no cadaver scent present to find. The cadaver scent comes afterwards by secondary transfer.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 29, 2017, 05:22:44 PM
You fail to understand that finding cadaver scent in 5a doesn't mean she expired there.
you obviously dont have a clue what i understand...what I do understand is this...
GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
do you understand that....i do
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 05:29:07 PM
Anyone who wants to totally discount alerts by an EVRD in a missing person case is not viewing the case in a logical, considered way.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:29:25 PM
it seems some posters want to totally ignore Grime in order to push their own agendas....
GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
The evidence against Prout was circumstantial. He took an age before reporting Kate "missing".
All credit cards and bank accounts of Kate's remained untouched from the point she disappeared.
Prout was known to have a volatile temper.
But it was the untouched bank accounts that was the main one.
Eddie alerted nowhere near where Prout strangled, then buried, Kate.
By jove I think you've got it ferryman. There was no cadaver scent in the game lodge but by secondary transfer cadaver scent was taken back to the farm bungalow. What I do find puzzling however is why Eddie didn't alert to the Land Rover as the body must have been there long enough for cadaver scent to form. Unless Prout steam cleaned and disinfected his equipment afterwards.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2017, 05:34:45 PM
Anyone who wants to totally discount alerts by an EVRD in a missing person case is not viewing the case in a logical, considered way.
Anyone who gives remote credence to the "enhanced" label, uniquely bestowed upon one sniffer dog in the whole history of sniffer dogs, that (the dog) never went near an American body farm, at least during its tenure of service as a police dog, and was never trained on human remains, either hasn't studied the record, or, is not interested.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:41:17 PM
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2017, 05:41:17 PM
according to grime he did....you dont take much notice of what grime says do you
He alerted to the cupboard unit, Cuddlecat just happened to have been put in there. Had he found cadaver odour on the toy he would have done so when he lifted it out of the toy bucket.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:43:40 PM
The dogs are only as good as their training. They find what they are trained to find.
they do find what they are trained to find but thats not what we are talking about we are talking about unconfirmed alerts.....grime says no information can be taken from these
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
He alerted to the cupboard unit, Cuddle at just happened to have been put in there.
so you are saying grime is wrong
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2017, 05:45:31 PM
He alerted to the cupboard unit, Cuddlecat just happened to have been put in there. Had he found cadaver odour on the toy he would have done so when he lifted it out of the toy bucket.
Which is where prior reconnoitres are (supposed to) come in and, at the gym, apparently did.
Or did the PJ read these translated instructions Mark Harrison gave them on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2017, 05:58:57 PM
Grime had an opportunity to say in his opinion the dogs alerted to cadaver odour He didn't do it What grime believes is not important... There are 3 separate sources that tell us the alerts are unreliable as evidence You can believe what you like As can Grime But that's all it is Belief
I think I have just a little more reason to trust a man who trained and handled detection dogs for a living (and still does) than someone on a discussion board. The possibility of death in 5A remains. It stays there alongside abduction as Redwood said. Whether he thought of it on his own or because of the dogs we don't know, but he brought some in too.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 29, 2017, 06:02:43 PM
Well it does rather suggest that the dog alerts can tell us nothing useful to further the case doesn't it? If Madeleine woke and wandered and was removed outside the apartment whatever the dog alerted to is nothing to do with the case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 06:03:58 PM
I think I have just a little more reason to trust a man who trained and handled detection dogs for a living (and still does) than someone on a discussion board. The possibility of death in 5A remains. It stays there alongside abduction as Redwood said. Whether he thought of it on his own or because of the dogs we don't know, but he brought some in too.
the possibility of death in 5a remains....as it did before the dogs alerts I too trust Grimes opinion as opposed to the posters here who think they understand the alerts better than Grime
glad you agree with me on this
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 29, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
Please stop any and all goading.
And I have had to remove a number of forum posts today and yesterday re libel. Kindly stop that too.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 29, 2017, 06:16:20 PM
LOL, Slarti. Even a layman has ... (a) common sense (b) the ability to read and assimilate information
One source of the information (b) at which you scoff can be read here ...
5.9. Method of Indication It is recognised that in the operational environment dogs should not be encouraged to retrieve, mouth or interfere with any item of property. This ensures that evidence can remain in situ prior to any forensic analysis, photographs etc. It also avoids concerns regarding cross contamination. It is therefore recommended that all police dogs have a no contact, passive indication upon locating property. The dog should quickly learn to understand “I search, I find” and then receive a reward. This reward is normally a toy delivered once the correct behaviour has been established. https://cinotecniamilitar.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/201103uopdogsmog1-1.pdf
As far as (a) is concerned ... logic dictates that it is not a good idea to risk contaminating evidence (or being contaminated) ~ hence protective clothing, gloves, masks, evidence bags etc ... and I would imagine that were one a handler with a trained explosives finding dog one would be particularly diligent in ensuring that the dog was trained to the nth degree in not picking up what it was trained to find and throwing it around the place. Anyway, following the link I have provided will enable even a layman to have a greater understanding of precisely why the dogs visit to Praia da Luz was of no significance either to finding what had happened to Madeleine or to solving the case.
Worth reading just for the explanation of the value of two handlers working a scene.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
LOL, Slarti. Even a layman has ... (a) common sense (b) the ability to read and assimilate information
One source of the information (b) at which you scoff can be read here ...
5.9. Method of Indication It is recognised that in the operational environment dogs should not be encouraged to retrieve, mouth or interfere with any item of property. This ensures that evidence can remain in situ prior to any forensic analysis, photographs etc. It also avoids concerns regarding cross contamination. It is therefore recommended that all police dogs have a no contact, passive indication upon locating property. The dog should quickly learn to understand “I search, I find” and then receive a reward. This reward is normally a toy delivered once the correct behaviour has been established. https://cinotecniamilitar.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/201103uopdogsmog1-1.pdf
As far as (a) is concerned ... logic dictates that it is not a good idea to risk contaminating evidence (or being contaminated) ~ hence protective clothing, gloves, masks, evidence bags etc ... and I would imagine that were one a handler with a trained explosives finding dog one would be particularly diligent in ensuring that the dog was trained to the nth degree in not picking up what it was trained to find and throwing it around the place. Anyway, following the link I have provided will enable even a layman to have a greater understanding of precisely why the dogs visit to Praia da Luz was of no significance either to finding what had happened to Madeleine or to solving the case.
Worth reading just for the explanation of the value of two handlers working a scene.
Yes! (to what I embolden).
Except that I wouldn't imagine that ....
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 06:52:21 PM
LOL, Slarti. Even a layman has ... (a) common sense (b) the ability to read and assimilate information
One source of the information (b) at which you scoff can be read here ...
5.9. Method of Indication It is recognised that in the operational environment dogs should not be encouraged to retrieve, mouth or interfere with any item of property. This ensures that evidence can remain in situ prior to any forensic analysis, photographs etc. It also avoids concerns regarding cross contamination. It is therefore recommended that all police dogs have a no contact, passive indication upon locating property. The dog should quickly learn to understand “I search, I find” and then receive a reward. This reward is normally a toy delivered once the correct behaviour has been established. https://cinotecniamilitar.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/201103uopdogsmog1-1.pdf
As far as (a) is concerned ... logic dictates that it is not a good idea to risk contaminating evidence (or being contaminated) ~ hence protective clothing, gloves, masks, evidence bags etc ... and I would imagine that were one a handler with a trained explosives finding dog one would be particularly diligent in ensuring that the dog was trained to the nth degree in not picking up what it was trained to find and throwing it around the place. Anyway, following the link I have provided will enable even a layman to have a greater understanding of precisely why the dogs visit to Praia da Luz was of no significance either to finding what had happened to Madeleine or to solving the case.
Worth reading just for the explanation of the value of two handlers working a scene.
Can you show the dog throwing CC?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
It's recorded in the written record of PJ Inspector Dias.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2017, 07:08:03 PM
I have seen video coverage of Eddie throwing Cuddle Cat around.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 07:08:18 PM
Quote
Eddie, the dog with an advanced training to detect mortal victims (E.V.R.D.), searches and locates human remains and body fluids, including blood, in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was done with human blood and decaying piglets that were born dead. The importance of this training is that the dog learnt to identify the odour of a decaying body that is not food. This guaranties that the dog ignores the 'bacon sandwich' and the 'kebab', etc. that are always present in the environment. Besides that the dog will not alert to a meal prepared at home or on any other place. For instance, the dog will be efficient on searching a cadaver in café where the clients can be seated eating a bacon sandwich. As a complement of this training, the dog receives an additional training in the USA, in association with the FBI, in which will be used exclusively human remains' (sic) (page 2493 and 2494).
This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'
These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.
It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.
In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
We witnessed Eddie disregarding his and every other working dog's trained response in Praia da Luz on those occasions when he picked up items in his mouth ... some of which were the subject of alerts.
Which casts doubt on the significance of any supposed associated information because it indicates an unreliable over excited animal incapable of following recognised practice.
Who are this "we" who were on site observing ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 07:13:22 PM
I have seen video coverage of Eddie throwing Cuddle Cat around.
Tennis ball in one of the other apartments. As well as a food item in a kitchen. The unforgettable exhibition of sheer unprofessionalism and bad practice in the gymnasium. I too have seen CC being thrown although whether or not it is still on the internet in the form noted by the less than impressed PJ Inspector is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 07:19:54 PM
Fine, so the PJ were looking at the same video the rest of us can see. The quality of the online video only shows Eddie going to a point between 1 and 2 foot off the ground next to a chair and knocking/pulling CC and something else onto the floor and moving off.
From watching other parts of the search, it is not a slow process with the dog moving round areas, onto tables, chairs and sides, into cupboards etc with speed and energy.
So in my view, it is not throwing or playing with CC as the supporters would have it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 29, 2017, 07:21:48 PM
So it is your opinion that professional police video shot for the purpose of perhaps being produced in court as evidence ... doesn't count as observation? Interesting.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 07:22:15 PM
Fine, so the PJ were looking at the same video the rest of us can see. The quality of the online video only shows Eddie going to a point between 1 and 2 foot off the ground next to a chair and knocking/pulling CC and something else onto the floor and moving off.
From watching other parts of the search, it is not a slow process with the dog moving round areas, onto tables, chairs and sides, into cupboards etc with speed and energy.
So in my view, it is not throwing or playing with CC as the supporters would have it.
surely the pj watched the actual searches not the edited highlights we have seen
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 07:23:03 PM
Fine, so the PJ were looking at the same video the rest of us can see. The quality of the online video only shows Eddie going to a point between 1 and 2 foot off the ground next to a chair and knocking/pulling CC and something else onto the floor and moving off.
From watching other parts of the search, it is not a slow process with the dog moving round areas, onto tables, chairs and sides, into cupboards etc with speed and energy.
So in my view, it is not throwing or playing with CC as the supporters would have it.
so you are accusing PJ Inspector Dias of lying?
As well as those of us with long enough memories to remember seeing the exact same video footage PJ Inspector Dias describes?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 29, 2017, 07:23:22 PM
surely the pj watched the actual searches not the edited highlights we have seen
Not according to FM.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 07:25:48 PM
Quote
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
Why indeed?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 29, 2017, 07:27:25 PM
I think the correct response is 'ask the dogs' 8)--))
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2017, 07:28:15 PM
Fine, so the PJ were looking at the same video the rest of us can see. The quality of the online video only shows Eddie going to a point between 1 and 2 foot off the ground next to a chair and knocking/pulling CC and something else onto the floor and moving off.
From watching other parts of the search, it is not a slow process with the dog moving round areas, onto tables, chairs and sides, into cupboards etc with speed and energy.
So in my view, it is not throwing or playing with CC as the supporters would have it.
"Supporters" don't "have" anything.
The facts are there for all to read.
And before Levy meddled with the videos, the facts were there for all to see as well.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 29, 2017, 08:03:51 PM
I think you need a cite for the 3rd sentence. Otherwise ...
Levy did edit the videos before he released them on line, and it was Levy who put them up first. His name is on them. We, some of us have since seen the unedited version.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 29, 2017, 08:26:55 PM
Levy did edit the videos before he released them on line, and it was Levy who put them up first. His name is on them. We, some of us have since seen the unedited version.
Is this generally available or just to a select group of supporters?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 29, 2017, 08:53:21 PM
You've read the quote of Inspector Dias describing Eddie playing with cuddle-cat.
The videos no longer show the sequence.
The sequence has been edited out.
Surely there is more than one copy of the video in existence ?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 29, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
Only one doctored copy available ? Sounds unlikely.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 29, 2017, 09:36:14 PM
Eddie's cadaver scent detecting skills have been shown in court in the Theresa Parker case. OG were looking for a cadaver in Luz. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs for this case.
"The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed."
Eddie's skills at detecting cadaver scent have been shown in court in the Theresa Parker case. OG were looking for a cadaver in Luz. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs for this case.
"The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed."
Fine, so the PJ were looking at the same video the rest of us can see. The quality of the online video only shows Eddie going to a point between 1 and 2 foot off the ground next to a chair and knocking/pulling CC and something else onto the floor and moving off.
From watching other parts of the search, it is not a slow process with the dog moving round areas, onto tables, chairs and sides, into cupboards etc with speed and energy.
So in my view, it is not throwing or playing with CC as the supporters would have it.
We have all seen CCat being played with and tossed in the air. You must have an ... errm , short memory Slarti
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: sadie on January 30, 2017, 12:38:41 AM
Eddie's cadaver scent detecting skills have been shown in court in the Theresa Parker case. OG were looking for a cadaver in Luz. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs for this case.
"The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed."
But remember in the case where no body is located but only cadaver scent detected by the EVRD the cadaver does not have a label. It may or may not be Madeleine's cadaver.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 30, 2017, 04:19:53 AM
But remember in the case where no body is located but only cadaver scent detected by the EVRD the cadaver does not have a label. It may or may not be Madeleine's cadaver.
It may not even be cadaver scent at all. Don't forget the key fob.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 30, 2017, 06:41:50 AM
Eddie's cadaver scent detecting skills have been shown in court in the Theresa Parker case.
I would say that, in the Theresa Parker case, Grime was required to demonstrate the basic proficiency of the dog (sic)
We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.
OG were looking for a cadaver in Luz. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs for this case.
"The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed."
And in PdL, Grime was handed a brief to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered and worked to it. Recommended the "enhanced" victim recovery dog facility. Himself concluded that he had no idea whether Madeleine was alive or dead; that no incriminating inference could be made from the reactions of the dogs.
Re-posted in the expectation that someone might be able to answer.
I would hope that the investigation holds untainted original.
All in the public domain has been tainted by Levy.
What causes me to hold the rogatory interviews at arm's length is that they, also, were brought to us via the agency of Levy.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2017, 10:48:16 AM
I understand that a number of 'file' DVDs were issued. If there are so many discrepancies on the internet files, why has nobody come forward with alternative files to challenge them?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 30, 2017, 01:33:29 PM
I understand that a number of 'file' DVDs were issued. If there are so many discrepancies on the internet files, why has nobody come forward with alternative files to challenge them?
All other journalists who received the DVD's have complied with the t&c's imposed under Portuguese law. They are not able to reproduce the originals in any form & have to use their own words when reporting on any aspect within the files. That is the sheer cleverness of what Levy did - knowing the files could not be challenged online without Portuguese law being broken. Heaven only knows how he escaped prosecution.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2017, 01:40:37 PM
I don't much about Levy. Is he resident in Portugal?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 30, 2017, 01:48:15 PM
All other journalists who received the DVD's have complied with the t&c's imposed under Portuguese law. They are not able to reproduce the originals in any form & have to use their own words when reporting on any aspect within the files. That is the sheer cleverness of what Levy did - knowing the files could not be challenged online without Portuguese law being broken. Heaven only knows how he escaped prosecution.
Anyone with a copy can cross-check whether the on-line files are correct or not, so any significant error can be challenged.
I would find it amazing if the DVDs were restricted to Portugal. So any investigative journalist can have a look at the original.
The bulk of the files are in .jpg format, which is not easy to alter.
The rogs etc are in English, and can be checked by those involved in making the documents.
And Kate McCann claims to have an original.
I am not aware of any of these parties challenging the authenticity of the PJ Files we can see on-line.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2017, 01:53:45 PM
Anyone with a copy can cross-check whether the on-line files are correct or not, so any significant error can be challenged.
I would find it amazing if the DVDs were restricted to Portugal. So any investigative journalist can have a look at the original.
The bulk of the files are in .jpg format, which is not easy to alter.
The rogs etc are in English, and can be checked by those involved in making the documents.
And Kate McCann claims to have an original.
I am not aware of any of these parties challenging the authenticity of the PJ Files we can see on-line.
we dont have any record of what the McCanns actually said in their portuguese interviews so there is no way we can check
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2017, 02:59:08 PM
This proves how long after Eddie can alert to cadaver scent:
"Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago."
This proves how long after Eddie can alert to cadaver scent:
"Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago."
Defense attorney Doug Woodruff asked Higgins about the accuracy of Maggie's nose and if there is any scientific proof that shows these type of dogs only get aroused by cadavers.
"Scientifically, no," Higgins replied. LOL.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2017, 03:13:56 PM
Defense attorney Doug Woodruff asked Higgins about the accuracy of Maggie's nose and if there is any scientific proof that shows these type of dogs only get aroused by cadavers.
"Scientifically, no," Higgins replied. LOL.
Sam Parker ain't laughing. He's in jail for murder. Don't underestimate dog alerts.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on January 30, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
Sam Parker ain't laughing. He's in jail for murder. Don't underestimate dog alerts.
You may not have been privy to an earlier discussion in which it was claimed there were hundreds of scientific studies that proved the reliability of the dog alerts, strange therefore that a dog handler claims there isn't any scientific proof isn't it?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2017, 03:34:02 PM
Defense attorney Doug Woodruff asked Higgins about the accuracy of Maggie's nose and if there is any scientific proof that shows these type of dogs only get aroused by cadavers.
"Scientifically, no," Higgins replied. LOL.
So no scientific proof to support the alerts
That's what I said a few days ago and a certain mod insisted there was
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2017, 03:53:23 PM
You may not have been privy to an earlier discussion in which it was claimed there were hundreds of scientific studies that proved the reliability of the dog alerts, strange therefore that a dog handler claims there isn't any scientific proof isn't it?
thank you Alf for highlighting that point....there is just so much rubbish posted about the dogs. the dogs are an invaluable tool for finding evidence....but unconfirmed alerts are basically of no real value
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 03:58:09 PM
Well it does rather suggest that the dog alerts can tell us nothing useful to further the case doesn't it? If Madeleine woke and wandered and was removed outside the apartment whatever the dog alerted to is nothing to do with the case.
That could very well be the case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
No it couldn't, because the shelved enquiry ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 04:09:17 PM
The following thread looked at the Cuddlecat incident where the toy was lifted out of the toy bucket onto the floor by Eddie, he then moves the toy to the middle of the floor before wandering off. No alerts.
The following thread looked at the Cuddlecat incident where the toy was lifted out of the toy bucket onto the floor by Eddie, he then moves the toy to the middle of the floor before wandering off. No alerts.
The alert came after the toy was put in the cupboard.
From Grime's rogatory:
Quote
Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
Quote
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
So after the dog had picked the toy up in its mouth and tossed it in the air (without alerting) the toy was put away in a cupboard and Eddie alerted (Grime says!) to the toy.
And no.
The toy was never sent to the FSS for forensic analysis.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 30, 2017, 04:25:54 PM
That's what I said a few days ago and a certain mod insisted there was
And Im still saying that there are scientific studies re cadaver dogs, which was what the debate was about at the time.
The idea that anyone in the debate claimed that cadaver dogs only alert to cadavers is ludicrous. The idea that anyone claimed there were scientific studies proving this is ludicrous.
The thread contains links to scientific studies re the capability of cadaver dogs.
Anyone who has to grossly distort a discussion to score a point is not a debater. It is propaganda, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 04:31:45 PM
If you study the dog video between 4.05 and 4.38 carefully you can see that Eddie alerted in the corner by the cupboard, he never alerted at the end where Cuddlecat was hidden.
Eddie was given a cuddly toy in training so reverted to puppy mode.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 04:55:00 PM
If you study the dog video between 4.05 and 4.38 carefully you can see that Eddie alerted in the corner by the cupboard, he never alerted at the end where Cuddlecat was hidden.
Eddie was given a cuddly toy in training so reverted to puppy mode.
How very silly was that?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2017, 04:59:41 PM
If you study the dog video between 4.05 and 4.38 carefully you can see that Eddie alerted in the corner by the cupboard, he never alerted at the end where Cuddlecat was hidden.
Eddie was given a cuddly toy in training so reverted to puppy mode.
We've put the victim recovery dog through this apartment, the only interest has been in some food that he has found, other than that there is no interest in anything that he has been taught to tell me that he has found.
Apartment H5
We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Eleanor on January 30, 2017, 05:14:18 PM
The footage which was originally on the internet was uncut raw footage, what remains today has been heavily edited.
First came the edited version from Levy, and named by him.
Then came the real one, which doesn't seem to be available anymore.
So now we appear to only have the edited version.
Personally, I don't care, but I did see Eddie throwing the toy around.
But since the toy was left on the bed of Madeline after she disappeared, then unless Madeleine laid dead in her bed for at least an hour and a half then there is no chance that the toy can have been contaminated.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: misty on January 30, 2017, 05:18:17 PM
From the 2011 ACPO Police Dogs Manual of Guidance https://cinotecniamilitar.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/201103uopdogsmog1-1.pdf This part is interesting:-
Page 112
"Within the United Kingdom, Victim Detection Dogs are trained mainly on pork. Pork is the meat which bears closest comparison to human flesh. Occasionally other meats, bones and offal are used".
Eddie was also trained by PC John Ellis so Grime didn't have full responsibility for exactly what Eddie was trained on.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2017, 05:21:54 PM
First came the edited version from Levy, and named by him.
Then came the real one, which doesn't seem to be available anymore.
So now we appear to only have the edited version.
Personally, I don't care, but I did see Eddie throwing the toy around.
But since the toy was left on the bed of Madeline after she disappeared, then unless Madeleine laid dead in her bed for at least an hour and a half then there is no chance that the toy can have been contaminated.
That's correct.
I think Grime put the toy away in a cupboard after Eddie played with it (without alerting) to spare further embarrassment.
But Eddie (who wanted his toy back) compounded the embarrassment by barking to indicate that he wanted his toy back.
And the myth of 'death-scent on cuddle cat' was born.
None of it the fault of the dog, of course.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 05:31:32 PM
We've put the victim recovery dog through this apartment, the only interest has been in some food that he has found, other than that there is no interest in anything that he has been taught to tell me that he has found.
Apartment H5
We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.
Apparently it was at one time.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2017, 05:31:43 PM
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2017, 05:34:41 PM
What point is being made by the sequence of photos above?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2017, 05:41:01 PM
To have a close look at Cuddle Cat which was the only item Eddie touched in the villa and is actual evidence from the missing child's bed unless you have found her pink princess blanket?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2017, 05:41:19 PM
The thread is " do the alerts have any significance" and it is significant that an american expert has agreed with me in that there is no scientific evidence to support unconfirmed alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ferryman on January 30, 2017, 05:59:26 PM
To have a close look at Cuddle Cat which was the only item Eddie touched in the villa and is actual evidence from the missing child's bed unless you have found her pink princess blanket?
Dogs attending a crime-scene shouldn't touch anything, particularly that (at least potentially) might be of forensic significance.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2017, 06:01:48 PM
By the time the dog touched it, Cuddlecat was well passed any forensic significance.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 06:21:07 PM
The FBI and most leading police agencies have ongoing development programmes aimed at fine tuning the science.
both those articles are about detecting physical remains.....not remnant scent
ive already said the dogs are invaluable at finding phsical evidence but there is no science behind the claims for remnant scent
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2017, 06:35:07 PM
That seems to be the confusion of posters on here....they look at figures taht apply to the detection of actual physical remains and think they apply to remnant scent
in cases where physical remains are present the scent will obviously be alot stronger and easier to detect
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: John on January 30, 2017, 06:39:36 PM
That seems to be the confusion of posters on here....they look at figures taht apply to the detection of actual physical remains and think they apply to remnant scent
in cases where physical remains are present the scent will obviously be alot stronger and easier to detect
Cadaverine is remnant scent and can be found with or without a body. When VRD's start work they are searching for the scent on which they were trained.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2017, 06:41:44 PM
Cadaverine is remnant scent and can be found with or without a body. When VRD's start work they are searching for the scent on which they were trained.
if body parts are present the scent will be a lot lot stronger and easier to detect...that is a fact and cannot be disputed
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 30, 2017, 07:03:44 PM
First came the edited version from Levy, and named by him.
Then came the real one, which doesn't seem to be available anymore.
So now we appear to only have the edited version.
Personally, I don't care, but I did see Eddie throwing the toy around.
But since the toy was left on the bed of Madeline after she disappeared, then unless Madeleine laid dead in her bed for at least an hour and a half then there is no chance that the toy can have been contaminated.
Other than by being in contact with a cadaver or someone touching a cadaver and then touching Cuddle Cat.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 30, 2017, 07:43:47 PM
if body parts are present the scent will be a lot lot stronger and easier to detect...that is a fact and cannot be disputed
... and there is no ambiguity about what it is which is causing the dog's alert.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 31, 2017, 02:22:50 PM
So has anyone managed to come up with a scientific study that gives any credibility to the unconfirmed alerts
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 31, 2017, 03:58:08 PM
Corroborating evidence is required. Martin Grime made that clear in his report but it doesn't have to be forensics as Adrian Prout discovered.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." MG
Corroborating evidence is required. Martin Grime made that clear in his report but it doesn't have to be forensics as Adrian Prout discovered.
"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." MG
When is it going to sink in Pathfinder, that the dogs had absolutely nothing to do with Prout's conviction. They added nothing to the initial investigation nor were they able to assist police by indicating the deposition site. If Prout had not confessed Mrs Prout's body would probably never have been recovered and given decent burial.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 31, 2017, 06:42:14 PM
When is it going to sink in Pathfinder, that the dogs had absolutely nothing to do with Prout's conviction. They added nothing to the initial investigation nor were they able to assist police by indicating the deposition site. If Prout had not confessed Mrs Prout's body would probably never have been recovered and given decent burial.
You should watch from 33 mins. Eddie's alert "changed our thoughts entirely". That confirmed to the police there was a body and they wanted to get justice whether they could find it or not.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 31, 2017, 08:36:06 PM
You should watch from 33 mins. Eddie's alert "changed our thoughts entirely". That confirmed to the police there was a body and they wanted to get justice whether they could find it or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqUH0vDvew&t=1990s
Adrian Prout was convicted by a jury in February 2010. Eddie's alert played no part in his trial and conviction. Therefore the dogs were of no significance in the Prout case.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 31, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Eddie did his police work and was correct that there was a body to be found. You will not find one case where he alerted and the missing person has turned up alive.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on January 31, 2017, 10:40:56 PM
Eddie did his police work and was correct that there was a body to be found. You will not find one case where he alerted and the missing person has turned up alive.
Eddie had absolutely nothing at all to do with Adrian Prout's conviction for the murder of his wife.
I do however know of a celebrated case involving Eddie when a missing person transmogrified into a coconut.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 31, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Eddie had absolutely nothing at all to do with Adrian Prout's conviction for the murder of his wife.
I do however know of a celebrated case involving Eddie when a missing person transmogrified into a coconut.
LOL Murderer Lane tried that one and Grime presented training records (see below). You are getting desperate - are you having a bad day? The fact is they don't know what it was so you can remove the coconut myth from your post.
"Martin Grime testified that Morse’s proficiency test results were “very high” and that, during specific training dates before and after December 4, 2011, Morse tested 100 percent positive and with 100 percent efficiency."
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on February 07, 2017, 10:21:20 PM
Hilarious moment on the docudrama about Shannon Matthews tonight when a character mentioned a dog had alerted to the scent of death during a house search and when they pulled up the floorboard all they found was a dead mouse. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Brietta on February 07, 2017, 10:31:12 PM
Hilarious moment on the docudrama about Shannon Matthews tonight when a character mentioned a dog had alerted to the scent of death during a house search and when they pulled up the floorboard all they found was a dead mouse. @)(++(*
What about the suicide attempt using ... CALPOL?? Yup ... some people really believed that one!
Very well done with the actors convincing in their roles despite the fact we know the story.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2017, 06:36:44 AM
Hilarious moment on the docudrama about Shannon Matthews tonight when a character mentioned a dog had alerted to the scent of death during a house search and when they pulled up the floorboard all they found was a dead mouse. @)(++(*
Would it have been just as funny if they had found nothing?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on February 08, 2017, 10:32:53 AM
Would it have been just as funny if they had found nothing?
The reason for the hilarity was that the drama writers gave a dead mouse as the reason for the dog alerting to the scent of death. I've no idea if this actually happened in real life or not but my mirth was caused by the outrage response I imagined in the homes of numerous cadaver dog fans up and down the country. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
The reason for the hilarity was that the drama writers gave a dead mouse as the reason for the dog alerting to the scent of death. I've no idea if this actually happened in real life or not but my mirth was caused by the outrage response I imagined in the homes of numerous cadaver dog fans up and down the country. @)(++(*
I know it could sound funny, but finding a dead mouse would be a common event around my house and many other houses that have cats. Did the dog alert to that mouse or was that just an incidental finding?
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 08, 2017, 06:30:31 PM
I know it could sound funny, but finding a dead mouse would be a common even around my house and may other houses that have cats. Did the dog alert to that mouse or was that just an incidental finding?
Possibly poetic licence to add some humour.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2017, 08:27:37 PM
Why would you want to make the dogs look incompetent? Do they worry you ? If so you must be a sheep.
I was defending man's best friend from all the sheeple.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: rotti on February 11, 2017, 11:45:25 AM
in an interview on you tube jerry says' it was we who asked for the dogs to be bought in'.why if you asked for them do you than say in an interview that 'the dogs are unreliable'.i would like to ask jerry or anyone on the planet 'would you board a aeroplane where a sniffer dog has indicated explosives'.how many have raised they hands.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alfie on February 11, 2017, 11:49:54 AM
in an interview on you tube jerry says' it was we who asked for the dogs to be bought in'.why if you asked for them do you than say in an interview that 'the dogs are unreliable'.i would like to ask jerry or anyone on the planet 'would you board a aeroplane where a sniffer dog has indicated explosives'.how many have raised they hands.
not that old chesnut! Do you think a dog aerting on a plane means the plane definitely has explosives on board so they just explode the plane at a safe distance on the runway? Or do they search the plane and if they find nothing, let passengers on board to continue with their journey? A dog alert does not confirm anything and needs to be backed ip with evidence. Take a look at the statistics of the number of false alerts on drug and explosives dogs, they are there to be found by googling.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: rotti on February 11, 2017, 12:01:59 PM
not that old chesnut! Do you think a dog aerting on a plane means the plane definitely has explosives on board so they just explode the plane at a safe distance on the runway? Or do they search the plane and if they find nothing, let passengers on board to continue with their journey? A dog alert does not confirm anything and needs to be backed ip with evidence. Take a look at the statistics of the number of false alerts on drug and explosives dogs, they are there to be found by googling.
fair enough thats your opinion ,but i didnt mention a search you did .so without a search you would board that flight.yes or no.if dogs are so unreliable why are they used by hundreds of police forces.why call for them and ignore their findings.maybe you should google.mcspin 'cadaver dogs unreliable' and watch the video on youtube very interesting.also puts paid to the mccans inlaws about the meat they carried in the boot of the hire car &%+((£
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Benice on February 11, 2017, 12:17:57 PM
in an interview on you tube jerry says' it was we who asked for the dogs to be bought in'.why if you asked for them do you than say in an interview that 'the dogs are unreliable'.i would like to ask jerry or anyone on the planet 'would you board a aeroplane where a sniffer dog has indicated explosives'.how many have raised they hands.
I wouldn't be refusing to board because I KNEW explosives were on board, it would be because explosives MIGHT be on board. The dogs are not infallible.
There are many examples of dogs alerting for drugs at airports where the person alerted to has no drugs on them, but may have recently been in close contact with someone who has. That situation would and does cause alerts to completely innocent people.
IOW - this is not the exact science some people would like to think it is. Far from it.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 11, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
I wouldn't be refusing to board because I KNEW explosives were on board, it would be because explosives MIGHT be on board. The dogs are not infallible.
There are many examples of dogs alerting for drugs at airports where the person alerted to has no drugs on them, but may have recently been in close contact with someone who has. That situation would and does cause alerts to completely innocent people.
IOW - this is not the exact science some people would like to think it is. Far from it.
Yet dogs are used worldwide, by a variety of services, police or otherwise.
Obviously they are totally useless. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 11, 2017, 02:56:59 PM
fair enough thats your opinion ,but i didnt mention a search you did .so without a search you would board that flight.yes or no.if dogs are so unreliable why are they used by hundreds of police forces.why call for them and ignore their findings.maybe you should google.mcspin 'cadaver dogs unreliable' and watch the video on youtube very interesting.also puts paid to the mccans inlaws about the meat they carried in the boot of the hire car &%+((£
Alfie does not do "yes" or "no". It's not part of his MO.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 11, 2017, 04:16:41 PM
Please do not invite members to post libel. I'm simply going to have to delete each request and each response.
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2017, 04:21:40 PM
fair enough thats your opinion ,but i didnt mention a search you did .so without a search you would board that flight.yes or no.if dogs are so unreliable why are they used by hundreds of police forces.why call for them and ignore their findings.maybe you should google.mcspin 'cadaver dogs unreliable' and watch the video on youtube very interesting.also puts paid to the mccans inlaws about the meat they carried in the boot of the hire car &%+((£
The dogs are used worldwide to find evidence That is their value In this case they found none Grime never said they had a 100% record It is impossible to say what their success rate is....fact
Title: Re: Have the dog alerts any significance?
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2017, 05:12:22 AM
SC ruling mentioned the dogs
Page 19: "2 – Fundamental principles
1.2. In the appealed acórdão the following facts are considered proved : ..... "6. The dogs Eddie and Keela, from the British police, have detected human blood and cadaver scent in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club (al.AR).
7. The dogs Eddie and Keela, from the British police, have detected human blood and cadaver scent in the vehicle rented by the applicants KMC and GMC after Madeleine's disappearance (al.AS)."
Page 56: "Before, however, the relevant facts to be taken into account in deciding the question referred to above shall be listed below :
5. The claimant Madeleine McCann has been missing since 3/5/2007, and the criminal investigation has not been carried out by the Office of the Prosecutor of the Republic of the region of Portimão.
6. The dogs of the British police 'Eddie and Keela' have detected human blood and body odours in the Ocean Club apartment 5-A.
7. The dogs Eddie and Keela, from the British police, have detected human blood and cadaver scent in the vehicle rented by the applicants KMC and GMC after Madeleine's disappearance."
I'm not sure what the question is being referred to, but they take the uncorroborated dog alerts to be some sort of evidence, well they call it a fact, which it is but what do they make from that fact?
Maybe they use it to confirm "Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida wrote a report and in particular the following : Given what we could establish, the facts point towards the death of Madeleine McCann during the evening of 3 May 2007, in the apartment 5A of Praia da Luz Ocean Club resort, occupied by the McCann couple and their three children." So it is Tavares that makes the initial error of converting the dog alerts into evidence.