Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 10:01:47 AM
Title: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 10:01:47 AM
What the recent Twitter storms have demonstrated is that there is one enduring myth in the Madeleine McCann saga that seems to have become a fact in the eyes of McCann denigrators - that the McCanns drugged their children. I don't ever see "Truthseekers" on the sceptic side of the argument correcting this myth by pointing out that their is no evidence that the McCanns drugged their kids, so does this detail not matter to the "seekers of truth" and are they happy for the people they are seemingly trying to educate about this case to continue to believe this myth is a fact? If so, why?
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Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 10, 2017, 11:06:03 AM
It is not a known fact that the McCanns or anyone else drugged the kids as no tests were performed in a realistic timescale to prove it one way or the other. There are of course certain indications which are accepted by some supporters and sceptics alike that point to the possibility of some substance being used to sedate the twins and by implication Madeleine.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 11:15:12 AM
It is not a known fact that the McCanns or anyone else drugged the kids as no tests were performed in a realistic timescale to prove it one way or the other. There are of course certain indications which are accepted by some supporters and sceptics alike that point to the possibility of some substance being used to sedate the twins and by implication Madeleine.
Any idea why it has gone from "non-proven" with no tangible evidence to support it to an accepted part of the narrative (a post-truth fact if you like) amongst those who enjoy criticising the McCanns online?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 11:23:51 AM
Any idea why it has gone from "non-proven" with no tangible evidence to support it to an accepted part of the narrative (a post-truth fact if you like) amongst those who enjoy criticising the McCanns online?
They will be confusing the right to express an opinion with the truth. Even if an opinion is touted to be the eventual truth it is still just an opinion.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 11:35:40 AM
Should people be allowed to say the McCanns drugged their kids to go and get drunk as a matter of fact? It seems that in Portugal for example this would be perfectly acceptable, do we think it should also be perfectly acceptable to say so in Britain without the risk of punishment?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 11:40:13 AM
Should people be allowed to say the McCanns drugged their kids to go and get drunk as a matter of fact? It seems that in Portugal for example this would be perfectly acceptable, do we think it should also be perfectly acceptable to say so in Britain without the risk of punishment?
It would be OK for the investigating officer to say it, no one seems to question that.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: John on March 10, 2017, 11:43:11 AM
What the recent Twitter storms have demonstrated is that there is one enduring myth in the Madeleine McCann saga that seems to have become a fact in the eyes of McCann denigrators - that the McCanns drugged their children. I don't ever see "Truthseekers" on the sceptic side of the argument correcting this myth by pointing out that their is no evidence that the McCanns drugged their kids, so does this detail not matter to the "seekers of truth" and are they happy for the people they are seemingly trying to educate about this case to continue to believe this myth is a fact? If so, why?
Since there is no evidence either way that the parents did so, the question of inappropriate medicating like so many will never be answered. One saving grace however is the fact that Kate herself remarked about the sleeping twins and this was later commented on by the GNR officers.
To answer your question though, it is wrong to accuse in the absence of direct evidence, 'just another stick' I believe is the expression.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 11:46:39 AM
What the recent Twitter storms have demonstrated is that there is one enduring myth in the Madeleine McCann saga that seems to have become a fact in the eyes of McCann denigrators - that the McCanns drugged their children. I don't ever see "Truthseekers" on the sceptic side of the argument correcting this myth by pointing out that their is no evidence that the McCanns drugged their kids, so does this detail not matter to the "seekers of truth" and are they happy for the people they are seemingly trying to educate about this case to continue to believe this myth is a fact? If so, why?
One enduring myth?
The honourable gentleman can't count.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 10, 2017, 11:47:31 AM
I've seen an interview recently where Mr and Mrs McCann were asked directly whether they used any medication to subdue the children and they categorically denied it.
The basis of this rumour I think stemmed from the twins being "unresponsive" when being woken up to what was essentially the middle of the night to them.
I believe forum carried a false narrative that Mr McCann had medical books by his bedside, along with books on how to commit the perfect murder and a bible open at a certain page which clearly indicated Kate had done something bad. In fact the amount of reading material they took on holiday according to some people was so enormous and varied, it is any wonder they managed to get out and do anything but read. Let alone get through customs with the alleged reading material they had.
I find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's parents would use medication to make their children sleep at night.To do so would selfish and very ruthless
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: John on March 10, 2017, 11:52:08 AM
I've seen an interview recently where Mr and Mrs McCann were asked directly whether they used any medication to subdue the children and they categorically denied it.
The basis of this rumour I think stemmed from the twins being "unresponsive" when being woken up to what was essentially the middle of the night to them.
I believe forum carried a false narrative that Mr McCann had medical books by his bedside, along with books on how to commit the perfect murder and a bible open at a certain page which clearly indicated Kate had done something bad. In fact the amount of reading material they took on holiday according to some people was so enormous and varied, it is any wonder they managed to get out and do anything but read. Let alone get through customs with the alleged reading material they had.
I find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's parents would use medication to make their children sleep at night.To do so would selfish and very ruthless
I agree unless it is thought that giving a 5ml spoonful of Calpol falls into that category? I hasten to add my medicine cupboard always contained a bottle of Calpol when my three boys were tots, usually needed for those awkward teething moments.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 11:53:27 AM
I've seen an interview recently where Mr and Mrs McCann were asked directly whether they used any medication to subdue the children and they categorically denied it.
The basis of this rumour I think stemmed from the twins being "unresponsive" when being woken up to what was essentially the middle of the night to them.
I believe forum carried a false narrative that Mr McCann had medical books by his bedside, along with books on how to commit the perfect murder and a bible open at a certain page which clearly indicated Kate had done something bad. In fact the amount of reading material they took on holiday according to some people was so enormous and varied, it is any wonder they managed to get out and do anything but read. Let alone get through customs with the alleged reading material they had.
I find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's parents would use medication to make their children sleep at night.To do so would selfish and very ruthless
Kate, indeed, had a Bible with a marked passage in it that referring to the death of a child, given to Kate by a friend who had, herself, marked the passage in response to a tragedy in her own family.
Gerry took a book with him on the holiday that was a fiction murder story, light, popular reading and in the best-seller fiction list at the time.
Gerry was in possession of 'top secret' CEOP manuals, freely available to download from the internet.
And much else besides ....
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 10, 2017, 11:53:58 AM
I've seen an interview recently where Mr and Mrs McCann were asked directly whether they used any medication to subdue the children and they categorically denied it.
The basis of this rumour I think stemmed from the twins being "unresponsive" when being woken up to what was essentially the middle of the night to them.
I believe forum carried a false narrative that Mr McCann had medical books by his bedside, along with books on how to commit the perfect murder and a bible open at a certain page which clearly indicated Kate had done something bad. In fact the amount of reading material they took on holiday according to some people was so enormous and varied, it is any wonder they managed to get out and do anything but read. Let alone get through customs with the alleged reading material they had.
I find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's parents would use medication to make their children sleep at night.To do so would selfish and very ruthless
The rumours were begun by Kate McCann due to her observation of the twins' unresponsiveness.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 11:55:43 AM
Is Calpol an effective sleeping medicine for children do we know?
It takes away teething and other pains thus helping them to sleep so yes, Calpol can assist sleep indirectly as any parent who has actually reared a child will know. In short it is a painkiller and not a sedative.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 11:57:10 AM
The rumours were begun by Kate McCann due to her observation of the twins' unresponsiveness.
The rumours that the McCanns drugged their children in order to go and get drunk were not started by Kate McCann, get your facts right.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 10, 2017, 11:57:18 AM
I've just been to look Calpol up myself on the site Netmums - it appears that Calpol is not a sleep agent but gives the impression it is only because it removes symptoms that stop a child from reshut upl sleep
Net Mums Link on Calpol as Sedative (https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/baby-794/drop-clinic-652/1107615-calpol-make-child-sleep-all.html)
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 11:57:35 AM
I wanted to highlight this one because in the recent Karen Danzcuk / Jodie Marsh led hatefest I saw numerous comments about how the McCanns were despicable for not only leaving their kids unattended but also for drugging them too. It seems to have become established fact and goes pretty much unchallenged on social media and comments pages. In 50 years time, when we are all dead and the case is written about or discussed will this so-called fact become an established part of the narrative I wonder?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 12:02:54 PM
What I meant was that she was the person who first raised the possibility of drugged children.
Yes!
Kate and/or Gerry raised with a Leicester Police liaison officer whether the PJ had any reason to suppose sedation might have been used in the abduction.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 12:05:37 PM
I wanted to highlight this one because in the recent Karen Danzcuk / Jodie Marsh led hatefest I saw numerous comments about how the McCanns were despicable for not only leaving their kids unattended but also for drugging them too. It seems to have become established fact and goes pretty much unchallenged on social media and comments pages. In 50 years time, when we are all dead and the case is written about or discussed will this so-called fact become an established part of the narrative I wonder?
I understand that, Alfie.
Credit for the original quip goes to Denis Skinner, responding to John Major in the Commons, who said there was a 'b........' in the cabinet.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 12:05:53 PM
Whether the McCann's used drugs or not, remains unknown.
Witnesses do not always tell the truth.
The use of Calpol with children is common place.
I've never heard of an adult using it, as a painkiller.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: John on March 10, 2017, 12:06:03 PM
One other element which could support the idea that the children were drugged is that Madeleine would have been unlikely to have gone quietly if she was abducted. A cloth soaked in some sort of anaesthetizing fluid for a few seconds over a child's mouth and nose is all that was needed. I hasten to add I don't hold with that particular scenario.
The myth could well be borne out of the knowledge that Kate was a qualified anaesthetist so was extremely well versed in the practise. She also would have had access to drugs which we mere mortals wouldn't.
Let's be clear however, I don't believe for a moment she abused that knowledge.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 10, 2017, 12:08:20 PM
I've seen an interview recently where Mr and Mrs McCann were asked directly whether they used any medication to subdue the children and they categorically denied it.
The basis of this rumour I think stemmed from the twins being "unresponsive" when being woken up to what was essentially the middle of the night to them.
I believe forum carried a false narrative that Mr McCann had medical books by his bedside, along with books on how to commit the perfect murder and a bible open at a certain page which clearly indicated Kate had done something bad. In fact the amount of reading material they took on holiday according to some people was so enormous and varied, it is any wonder they managed to get out and do anything but read. Let alone get through customs with the alleged reading material they had.
I find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's parents would use medication to make their children sleep at night.To do so would selfish and very ruthless
Do you accept that many parents used calpol to assist their children to sleep?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 10, 2017, 12:13:04 PM
Kate, indeed, had a Bible with a marked passage in it that referring to the death of a child, given to Kate by a friend who had, herself, marked the passage in response to a tragedy in her own family.
Gerry took a book with him on the holiday that was a fiction murder story, light, popular reading and in the best-seller fiction list at the time.
Gerry was in possession of 'top secret' CEOP manuals, freely available to download from the internet.
And much else besides ....
The video which was posted on the internet under LEVY copyright, also lingered on medication which belonged to Madeleine's grandfather. In an example of flagrant invasion of his privacy.
The issue made of innocuous items in the McCann's bedroom, including Kate's photographs of Madeleine, is an illustration of the worth of the case being built against them by the police.
I find the whole intrusive episode epitomises ineptitude and is an example of the quality of the 'evidence' for the case being built against the McCanns. All of it wrong or ill informed and unable to withstand proper scrutiny.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 10, 2017, 12:20:43 PM
Whether the McCann's used drugs or not, remains unknown.
Witnesses do not always tell the truth.
The use of Calpol with children is common place.
I've never heard of an adult using it, as a painkiller.
Don't understand what you mean when you say 'never heard of an adult using it as a painkiller' an adult would use Paracetamol or another pain killer for adults.
Can anyone believe that the McCann's would give an overdose of Calpol to their children? A build up of Paracetemol in the liver is very dangerous and can cause a very painful death.
There was no sign that the McCann's children were being drugged, they were not sluggish at nursery or the Nannies would have reported it.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 02:52:09 PM
Don't understand what you mean when you say 'never heard of an adult using it as a painkiller' an adult would use Paracetamol or another pain killer for adults.
Can anyone believe that the McCann's would give an overdose of Calpol to their children? A build up of Paracetemol in the liver is very dangerous and can cause a very painful death.
There was no sign that the McCann's children were being drugged, they were not sluggish at nursery or the Nannies would have reported it.
That Lace was my point.
Adults don't use Calpol.
Was there Calpol in the apartment where the Mccanns stayed ?
..and we don't know if the McCann's children were drugged or sedated, do we ?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 03:01:29 PM
Some people have difficulty swallowing pills/capsules and will use Calpol instead. My grand daughteer is one such person. She is a teenager but I can forsee that she will have to continue this into adulthood.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 04:15:20 PM
Paracetamol is paracetamol: an identical drug sold in packages of doses that vary, along with the name.
Adult paracetamol has 500 milligrams of active ingredients per tablet; the identical preparation for children, a much lower dose for each measure of liquid.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 04:45:08 PM
Paracetamol is paracetamol - great I didn't know that!
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2017, 05:30:56 PM
Some people have difficulty swallowing pills/capsules and will use Calpol instead. My grand daughteer is one such person. She is a teenager but I can forsee that she will have to continue this into adulthood.
What about soluble Paracetemal, is your grand daughter able to take that?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Lace on March 10, 2017, 06:33:06 PM
If Paracetemal made you sleepy it would say 'do not operate machinery' as it does on antihistamine tablets.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 10, 2017, 06:41:06 PM
I gave my kids Calpol to stop them being mardy. Calpol all round ?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 06:46:27 PM
It was pointless There was no point You were questioning Kates medical skills because she had difficulties with a colicky baby That is pointless as there is no real treatment for colic
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 07:10:43 PM
FFS. So as well as being a useless mother, Kate is also a useless doctor? Well that figures. Clearly being unable to cope with colic in a baby means she's got a pre-disposition to overdose her kids with Calpol. %&5%£
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
Paracetamol is paracetamol: an identical drug sold in packages of doses that vary, along with the name.
Adult paracetamol has 500 milligrams of active ingredients per tablet; the identical preparation for children, a much lower dose for each measure of liquid.
Wow, that's truly amazing.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 07:15:28 PM
It was pointless There was no point You were questioning Kates medical skills because she had difficulties with a colicky baby That is pointless as there is no real treatment for colic
So why didn't K&G simply think, Madeleine has got colic, no real treatment, she'll grow out of it?
P29. How Kate and Gerry suffered. Tough on Madeleine.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 07:24:53 PM
Well, bearing in mind some of your comments..........
It is all an enduring myth.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 07:28:28 PM
Can we get back to the topic of this thread which is why "truthseekers" have such a high tolerance for this particular myth and why it seems to have become established fact despite the complete lack of evidence that the McCanns sedated their children to go out and get drunk?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 07:34:05 PM
Can we get back to the topic of this thread which is why "truthseekers" have such a high tolerance for this particular myth and why it seems to have become established fact despite the complete lack of evidence that the McCanns sedated their children to go out and get drunk?
Well, as the children were never tested, we will never know.
Some won't believe they were drugged, some will.
That's about the nub of it.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 07:38:14 PM
Can we get back to the topic of this thread which is why "truthseekers" have such a high tolerance for this particular myth and why it seems to have become established fact despite the complete lack of evidence that the McCanns sedated their children to go out and get drunk?
It's not the only enduring myth of course; there's the abduction which some seem to think is an established fact, and lots of people believed the McCanns had been cleared of something too.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 08:19:16 PM
It's not the only enduring myth of course; there's the abduction which some seem to think is an established fact, and lots of people believed the McCanns had been cleared of something too.
I didn't claim it was the ONLY enduring myth and the rest of your post is simple deflection. How about adressing the topic instead?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 08:26:27 PM
P29 Kate and Gerry seem bewildered by a simple case of colic.
when you "recognise" colic do you rule out.....
Differential Diagnoses Bronchiolitis Emergent Management of Acute Otitis Media Bacterial Meningitis Intussusception Pediatric Aseptic Meningitis Pediatric Gastroesophageal Reflux Pediatric Pneumonia Protein Intolerance Soy Protein Intolerance
this is only a partial list....I think you should stick to being an amateur detective rather than an amateur doctor...you will cause less harm as the former
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 10, 2017, 08:53:50 PM
Can we get back to the topic of this thread which is why "truthseekers" have such a high tolerance for this particular myth and why it seems to have become established fact despite the complete lack of evidence that the McCanns sedated their children to go out and get drunk?
Madeleine was screaming the house down on TUE from a witness that lived above so that rules out sedation up until 1 May 2007 but the following day a cot was seen by another witness in the parents bedroom (possibly the wonky legged one) and that night Kate slept in the kids bedroom. And Fiona's interview:
"She (KM) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'."
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 08:58:22 PM
Madeleine was screaming the house down on TUE from a witness that lived above so that rules out sedation up until 1 May 2007 but the following day a cot was seen by another witness in the parents bedroom (possibly the wonky legged one) and that night Kate slept in the kids bedroom. And Fiona's interview:
"She (KM) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'."
Can we have a cite for "Madeleine was screaming the house down on Tuesday night" and then can you address the thread topic, ta.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 09:00:20 PM
P29 Kate and Gerry seem bewildered by a simple case of colic.
Bewildered?
Perhaps it's a translation thing.
I read that page and my impression is Kate describing her distress at witnessing her daughter's distress at a distressing (but not usually dangerous) childhood malady that afflicted Madeleine in her infant years.
Personally, I don't read anything more into that page than that.
The page certainly doesn't explain the enduring myth.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 09:01:59 PM
Can we have a cite for "Madeleine was screaming the house down on Tuesday night" and then can you address the thread topic, ta.
I've addressed it. Pamela Fenn was the witness above.
"The tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below." "She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 09:07:46 PM
well obviously you have a superior knowledge of medicine than Kate or Gerry....or think you do
If two qualified doctors struggled to recognise colic or realise that there is little way to treat it then they are about as thick as two short planks. It would hardly reflect well on their intelligence or their medical skills.
If such be the case.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 10, 2017, 09:11:46 PM
Differential Diagnoses Bronchiolitis Emergent Management of Acute Otitis Media Bacterial Meningitis Intussusception Pediatric Aseptic Meningitis Pediatric Gastroesophageal Reflux Pediatric Pneumonia Protein Intolerance Soy Protein Intolerance
this is only a partial list....I think you should stick to being an amateur detective rather than an amateur doctor...you will cause less harm as the former
"You just keep thinking Googling Butch, thats what your good at".
Differential Diagnoses Bronchiolitis Emergent Management of Acute Otitis Media Bacterial Meningitis Intussusception Pediatric Aseptic Meningitis Pediatric Gastroesophageal Reflux Pediatric Pneumonia Protein Intolerance Soy Protein Intolerance
this is only a partial list....I think you should stick to being an amateur detective rather than an amateur doctor...you will cause less harm as the former
You'd be lucky to get a doctor to do this all in one session too.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 09:14:12 PM
Differential Diagnoses Bronchiolitis Emergent Management of Acute Otitis Media Bacterial Meningitis Intussusception Pediatric Aseptic Meningitis Pediatric Gastroesophageal Reflux Pediatric Pneumonia Protein Intolerance Soy Protein Intolerance
this is only a partial list....I think you should stick to being an amateur detective rather than an amateur doctor...you will cause less harm as the former
So did the McCanns take Madeleine to a qualified independent medical source so that these alternatives could be ruled out?
Or suggesting the twins might have been sedated, did they take the twins to a qualified independent medical source so this could be tested?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 10, 2017, 09:18:58 PM
I've addressed it. Pamela Fenn was the witness above.
"The tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below." "She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Relevance to this thread please?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 09:43:26 PM
I do believe we are dancing around this quote from your OP.
"that the McCanns drugged their children"
Hopefully, I have not ended up in yet another doggies+Grime thread. My life is ticking away relentlessly. 8((()*/
And an alleged failure to recognise colic (no actual cite produced btw) has precisely what to do with the enduring myth of sedating their children and the reluctance of McCann critics to admit it is unproven so not a fact?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 09:47:28 PM
And an alleged failure to recognise colic (no actual cite produced btw) has precisely what to do with the enduring myth of sedating their children and the reluctance of McCann critics to admit it is unproven so not a fact?
How many times do I have to say page 29?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 09:49:52 PM
You can say it a million times if you like. I don't currently have access to the book so your page number tells me sweet fa.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 09:51:48 PM
Page 29?
Kate describing her distress at witnessing the distress of her daughter, suffering from a common (and distressing!) but not generally dangerous childhood malady.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 09:52:46 PM
What the recent Twitter storms have demonstrated is that there is one enduring myth in the Madeleine McCann saga that seems to have become a fact in the eyes of McCann denigrators - that the McCanns drugged their children. I don't ever see "Truthseekers" on the sceptic side of the argument correcting this myth by pointing out that their is no evidence that the McCanns drugged their kids, so does this detail not matter to the "seekers of truth" and are they happy for the people they are seemingly trying to educate about this case to continue to believe this myth is a fact? If so, why?
30
A reminder that this post is nothing to do with the McCanns' alleged inability to diagnose colic, nor to Madeleine allegedly shouting the house down on Tuesday night.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 10, 2017, 10:01:58 PM
You can say it a million times if you like. I don't currently have access to the book so your page number tells me sweet fa.
An extract from that page that, I think, reflects the greatest emphasis Kate places on the effect of Madeleine's condition on her (Kate!)
Quote
It's hard to remember how I managed when I look back and picture myself buttering ... toast with one hand (I am very bad at going without food), holding Madeleine in the other arm and never being able to answer the phone or even go to the toilet unaccompanied.
The rest of that page describes Kate's distress at witnessing Madeleine's distress, and particularly being unable to do anything to alleviate it.
Later on in the book, Kate describes a glorious, breakthrough moment when the McCanns, on holiday, put Madeleine down to sleep one night and she slept right through: the signal of the end of Madeleine's childhood colic.
I'm at a loss to understand what anyone is reading in to it remotely relevant to events of PdL.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 10:12:09 PM
Kate describing her distress at witnessing the distress of her daughter, suffering from a common (and distressing!) but not generally dangerous childhood malady.
Would the supporters kindly make up their collective mind?
Either Madeleine had colic, a not uncommon occurrence, which doctors should have recognised and known it would pass.
Or she was up for grabs for umpty nasty alternatives as Googled by Davel, in which case she should have had independent qualified medical testing.
Or she was a pain in the a**e, whom Kate wanted to unload onto Gerry as soon as he walked through the door, so that Kate could have a pee break and give her arm a rest.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 10:18:35 PM
Would the supporters kindly make up their collective mind?
Either Madeleine had colic, a not uncommon occurrence, which doctors should have recognised and known it would pass.
Or she was up for grabs for umpty nasty alternatives as Googled by Davel, in which case she should have had independent qualified medical testing.
Or she was a pain in the a**e, whom Kate wanted to unload onto Gerry as soon as he walked through the door, so that Kate could have a pee break and give her arm a rest.
What a nasty third paragraph.....Maddie almost certainly had simple colic but.....unlike you the MCcanns would have wanted to try and find out what was causing it as there are a multitude of causes. My daughter found that stopping all dairy products solved it but the McCanns nmy have tried everything without success. Even though they knew it would pass it would be good if the cause could be found...sometimes it simply can't be and this seems to be the case in maddie's case. Your reasoning is very simplistic and shows a complete lack of knowledge of the causes and treatments of infant colic
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 10:27:40 PM
What a nasty third paragraph.....Maddie almost certainly had simple colic but.....unlike you the MCcanns would have wanted to try and find out what was causing it as there are a multitude of causes. My daughter found that stopping all dairy products solved it but the McCanns nmy have tried everything without success. Even though they knew it would pass it would be good if the cause could be found...sometimes it simply can't be and this seems to be the case in maddie's case. Your reasoning is very simplistic and shows a complete lack of knowledge of the causes and treatments of infant colic
It is a nasty 3rd paragraph, isn't it. So where did I get that? That would be P30 of 'madeleine'.
"Poor Gerry would arrive home from work and would hardly have a foot over the threshold before he was handed a roaring bundle while I went upstairs for a loo break, a scream-free moment and a chance to regain the use of my arms."
Two doctors struggling with a simple case of colic?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 10:35:55 PM
It is a nasty 3rd paragraph, isn't it. So where did I get that? That would be P30 of 'madeleine'.
"Poor Gerry would arrive home from work and would hardly have a foot over the threshold before he was handed a roaring bundle while I went upstairs for a loo break, a scream-free moment and a chance to regain the use of my arms."
Two doctors struggling with a simple case of colic?
It sounds more than colic to me.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 10:41:47 PM
It is a nasty 3rd paragraph, isn't it. So where did I get that? That would be P30 of 'madeleine'.
"Poor Gerry would arrive home from work and would hardly have a foot over the threshold before he was handed a roaring bundle while I went upstairs for a loo break, a scream-free moment and a chance to regain the use of my arms."
Two doctors struggling with a simple case of colic?
no you didnt get it from the book...you paraphrased the book into your own nasty words. You have obviously never had to cope with a baby who has severe colic....but keep showing how little you understand and what a biased view of the situation you want to present
you have described maddie as a possible" pain in the a**e"...what an absolute disgrace
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 10:51:24 PM
no you didnt get it from the book...you paraphrased the book into your own nasty words. You have obviously never had to cope with a baby who has severe colic....but keep showing how little you understand and what a biased view of the situation you want to present
you have described maddie as a possible" pain in the a**e"...what an absolute disgrace
Oh dear, my alleged crime is paraphrasing.
I've done my time with babies with colic. It never came near to bunging them into the hands of the father as he walked through the door for a pee-break and an arm rest.
Disgraceful.
But support this behaviour as is your wont.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Erngath on March 10, 2017, 10:59:00 PM
I've done my time with babies with colic. It never came near to bunging them into the hands of the father as he walked through the door for a pee-break and an arm rest.
Disgraceful.
But support this behaviour as is your wont.
Well jolly good for you. Perhaps you didn't have the type of hubby who was willingly glad to take over the role of supportive father when you had had a difficult day with babies/ toddlers. I had two toddlers aged three and two and a new baby and my hubby was more than delighted to have any of them bunged into his arms when he arrived home from work whether I needed "a pee" or not.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 10, 2017, 11:00:44 PM
Do any of the resident medical experts know of a cure for faux outrage?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 11:02:49 PM
I've done my time with babies with colic. It never came near to bunging them into the hands of the father as he walked through the door for a pee-break and an arm rest.
Disgraceful.
But support this behaviour as is your wont.
you obviously dont understand there are differrent degrees of colic....your reference to maddie as a possible pain in the a**e is a total disgrace
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 11:04:45 PM
it is of no relevance at all and purely an excuse for mccann bashing.....and of course a breach of copywright
I've now been reunited with my copy of the book (hardback version contains the page 29 that SIL has felt necessary to reference in this thread). The first line of the chapter is "Madeleine suffered from colic". So quite why SIL is under the impression that the McCanns were unable to diagnose it I can't understand, nor do I understand why she believes that they did not know that it would eventually pass, nor do I understand why SIL fails to have any empathy whatsoever with new parents struggling with a colicky baby which can be very distressing, even if you are a doctor (yes, doctors can be parents and human beings too). This is all extremely odd, ilogical reasoning, and totally irrelevant to the thread.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 11:19:59 PM
it is of no relevance at all and purely an excuse for mccann bashing.....and of course a breach of copyright
Ha ha ha! 8@??)(
I didn't quote p29.
The quote was from p30.
Copyright infringement? After paraphrasing? After a request from a supporter to cite given said supporter does not appear to have a copy of the book?
It would appear some of the supporters are in total disarray. Not all. Some have chosen to keep their black powder dry. An entirely wise choice.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Erngath on March 10, 2017, 11:24:17 PM
It's every tiny aspect of their lives which is criticized, not only their behaviour during the week of Madeleine's abduction, but every aspect of their behaviour and family life both before and after that week. Every decision, every choice, every element dissected and judged.
Must be wonderful to be so perfect.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 11:27:45 PM
Copyright infringement? After paraphrasing? After a request from a supporter to cite given said supporter does not appear to have a copy of the book?
It would appear some of the supporters are in total disarray. Not all. Some have chosen to keep their black powder dry. An entirely wise choice.
I didnt mention a page.....you made a direct quote from the book ...that is a breach of copyright...supporters in disarray?....you might be under the misapprehension that supporters are part of some sort of organised team...a rather silly notion.....We are all independent individuals...that must come as something of a shock to you
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 11:28:46 PM
Copyright infringement? After paraphrasing? After a request from a supporter to cite given said supporter does not appear to have a copy of the book?
It would appear some of the supporters are in total disarray. Not all. Some have chosen to keep their black powder dry. An entirely wise choice.
goading. Are we all to speak with one voice? In that case I suggest you nominate a spokesperson and get the rest of us to shut up. Would that suit you better?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
I didnt mention a page.....you made a direct quote from the book ...that is a breach of copyright...supporters in disarray?....you might be under the misapprehension that supporters are part of some sort of organised team...a rather silly notion.....We are all independent individuals...that must come as something of a shock to you
There is no clause in the copyright section that forbids quoting sections of her book.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 11:35:07 PM
Bashing the McCanns is perfectly in order when they deserve to be bashed.
Bashing Amaral is perfectly in order when he deserves to be bashed.
Bashing (please fit your own victim here) is perfectly in order when he/she/it/they deserve to be bashed.
If 2 doctors with a newborn with colic found it tough, guess what they deserve.
so the mccanns deserve to be bashed because they found it difficult to cope with a baby suffering from severe colic....and no doubt you think Maddie deserves to be referred to as a possible pain in the a**e....and the McCanns were very wise to give you a very wide berth when you attempted to contact them to offer your "help"
perhaps your rejection has fuelled your ill feeling
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 11:35:41 PM
Chuck us an M16 with two clips taped together...... ?>)()< 8(0(*
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 10, 2017, 11:37:11 PM
Having re-read the first few pages of the chapter that SIL is desperately using as evidence of god knows what I am struck by just how much love and tenderness there is in Kate's words, it's kind of heartbreaking actually.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 11:38:49 PM
I didnt mention a page.....you made a direct quote from the book ...that is a breach of copyright...supporters in disarray?....you might be under the misapprehension that supporters are part of some sort of organised team...a rather silly notion.....We are all independent individuals...that must come as something of a shock to you
Nope, you had a quote with a page number in it, to which you replied breach of copyright.
"Still failing to see the relevance of page 29 to this thread, apart from being yet another excuse for McCann bashing."
Reply
"it is of no relevance at all and purely an excuse for mccann bashing.....and of course a breach of copyright"
Page 29. Alleged breach of copyright. After all the other Internet gubbins about the serious conditions the McCanns seemingly overlooked.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 10, 2017, 11:41:24 PM
Nope, you had a quote with a page number in it, to which you replied breach of copyright.
"Still failing to see the relevance of page 29 to this thread, apart from being yet another excuse for McCann bashing."
Reply
"it is of no relevance at all and purely an excuse for mccann bashing.....and of course a breach of copyright"
Page 29. Alleged breach of copyright. After all the other Internet gubbins about the serious conditions the McCanns seemingly overlooked.
your quote of page 30 is a breach of copyright...you are obviously not aware that John has been warned re breach of copyright of the book....keep up the good work
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 10, 2017, 11:41:46 PM
goading. Are we all to speak with one voice? In that case I suggest you nominate a spokesperson and get the rest of us to shut up. Would that suit you better?
Report the post.
I do not moderate any post that is by me and has been reported.
There are other moderators for that.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 10, 2017, 11:49:38 PM
so the mccanns deserve to be bashed because they found it difficult to cope with a baby suffering from severe colic....and no doubt you think Maddie deserves to be referred to as a possible pain in the a**e....and the McCanns were very wise to give you a very wide berth when you attempted to contact them to offer your "help"
perhaps your rejection has fuelled your ill feeling
The McCanns did not get cleared. Portuguese Supreme Court.
I did not get rejected. SIL.
I suppose the SC pronouncement is a tad more important than mine. Such is life.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Erngath on March 10, 2017, 11:53:23 PM
Having re-read the first few pages of the chapter that SIL is desperately using as evidence of god knows what I am struck by just how much love and tenderness there is in Kate's words, it's kind of heartbreaking actually.
I am re-reading as well and yes there are so many tender memories there.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 10, 2017, 11:53:47 PM
Having re-read the first few pages of the chapter that SIL is desperately using as evidence of god knows what I am struck by just how much love and tenderness there is in Kate's words, it's kind of heartbreaking actually.
Having recently asked me to quote the book because you were separated from it, then managing to find your copy, then making up your mind on what connotes, here is my take.
It clearly and unmistakably states that Kate found Madeleine really tough work until such times as the trip to Italy, when Madeleine slept for 6 hours P31.
And anyone claiming otherwise is going head-to-head with Kate in her book 'madeleine'.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 12:03:27 AM
Having recently asked me to quote the book because you were separated from it, then managing to find your copy, then making up your mind on what connotes, here is my take.
It clearly and unmistakably states that Kate found Madeleine really tough work until such times as the trip to Italy, when Madeleine slept for 6 hours P31.
And anyone claiming otherwise is going head-to-head with Kate in her book 'madeleine'.
so your take has now changed
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 12:04:04 AM
The McCanns did not get cleared. Portuguese Supreme Court.
I did not get rejected. SIL.
I suppose the SC pronouncement is a tad more important than mine. Such is life.
What has the SC judgement got to do with your contention that the McCanns failed to diagnose colic and were unable to deal with a colicky baby? Not that I expect anything resembling a straight answer of course... *goes to bed kicking self for once again engaging with the inhabitants of Wonderland*
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 12:05:41 AM
Having recently asked me to quote the book because you were separated from it, then managing to find your copy, then making up your mind on what connotes, here is my take.
It clearly and unmistakably states that Kate found Madeleine really tough work until such times as the trip to Italy, when Madeleine slept for 6 hours P31.
And anyone claiming otherwise is going head-to-head with Kate in her book 'madeleine'.
And who is claiming otherwise, and what has it gt to do with the subject of this thread? In your own time of course.... 6&%5%
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2017, 12:06:07 AM
Having recently asked me to quote the book because you were separated from it, then managing to find your copy, then making up your mind on what connotes, here is my take.
It clearly and unmistakably states that Kate found Madeleine really tough work until such times as the trip to Italy, when Madeleine slept for 6 hours P31.
And anyone claiming otherwise is going head-to-head with Kate in her book 'madeleine'.
But she never described Madeleine as a pain in the a~~e. Those were your words and that is disgraceful.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 12:07:38 AM
What has the SC judgement got to do with your contention that the McCanns failed to diagnose colic and were unable to deal with a colicky baby? Not that I expect anything resembling a straight answer of course... *goes to bed kicking self for once again engaging with the inhabitants of Wonderland*
yes if introducing colic to the thread wasnt enough why not compound the issue and introduce the SC judgement...what odds next post is dogs dont lie
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 11, 2017, 12:08:31 AM
never mind speculation...is there any real evidence the mccanns drugged their children....NO ...
Evidently, Madeleine didn't kick up a fuss when she disappeared, and neither did the other two children.
Now, why would that be ?
...and why didn't the McCann's INSIST on their children being tested for the presence of drugs or sedatives in their bodies, in the aftermath of Madeline's disappearance ?
Perhaps they were too busy doing other things.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Benice on March 11, 2017, 07:49:25 AM
Would the supporters kindly make up their collective mind?
Either Madeleine had colic, a not uncommon occurrence, which doctors should have recognised and known it would pass.
Or she was up for grabs for umpty nasty alternatives as Googled by Davel, in which case she should have had independent qualified medical testing.
Or she was a pain in the a**e, whom Kate wanted to unload onto Gerry as soon as he walked through the door, so that Kate could have a pee break and give her arm a rest.
My first baby suffered with severe colic for the first 6 weeks of her life and so I can totally understand Kate - right down to her handing her daughter over to her daddy as soon as he walked through the door - I also did that. Knowing that she was crying in pain day after day - and not being able to do anything to stop it was torture for both of us - we felt so helpless.
However, I can assure you that not once during that totally exhausting, worrying time did I ever think of my suffering baby as 'a pain in the a@rse.'
You clearly have no experience at all of a baby suffering with colic - because if you did - then there is no way IMO that you would have dreamed of making such a spiteful comment.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 08:15:05 AM
My first baby suffered with severe colic for the first 6 weeks of her life and so I can totally understand Kate - right down to her handing her daughter over to her daddy as soon as he walked through the door - I also did that. Knowing that she was crying in pain day after day - and not being able to do anything to stop it was torture for both of us - we felt so helpless.
However, I can assure you that not once during that totally exhausting, worrying time did I ever think of my suffering baby as 'a pain in the a@rse.'
You clearly have no experience at all of a baby suffering with colic - because if you did - then there is no way IMO that you would have dreamed of making such a spiteful comment.
I think spiteful just about sums it up
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
Most kids are a pain in the a**e at some time in their early life.
So when your children were ill and in extreme discomfort you would describe them as a pain in the a**e What an awful way for a parent to describe their child
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2017, 11:06:49 AM
If, of course, there is such a thing as 'colic';
This is simply the term used for a baby aged between two and 12 weeks that cries constantly. At least one in five infants born in the UK is diagnosed with colic but in fact there's an increasing body of research to show there is no such thing. http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/654538/Childcare-experts-colic-doesn-t-exist
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 11, 2017, 11:09:58 AM
So when your children were ill and in extreme discomfort you would describe them as a pain in the a**e What an awful way for a parent to describe their child
Pathetic comment.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 11, 2017, 12:00:57 PM
That and at the time it probably didn't cross their minds, or if it did they only entertained the notion as opposed to believing steadfast that it was the case.
I think for everyone concerned the next 72 hours will have been panic, chaos and bewilderment.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: misty on March 11, 2017, 12:03:03 PM
I watched this discussion unfolding last night & decided to refrain from posting in the hope that most of it would have been removed. It hasn't been. How the Mod who sought to justify his Ghoul Tours, whilst at the same time almost demanding the MCCanns listen to his superior knowledge of how Luz works, expects to retain any respect from others after referring to Madeleine as a pain in the a~~e is beyond me.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 11, 2017, 12:21:42 PM
So when your children were ill and in extreme discomfort you would describe them as a pain in the a**e What an awful way for a parent to describe their child
Yes and I am sure when those kids reach teenager status they probably describe their parents likewise from time to time.
This is just another example of supporters attempting to counter factual arguments with emotional responses.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2017, 12:47:44 PM
Yes and I am sure when those kids reach teenager status they probably describe their parents likewise from time to time.
This is just another example of supporters attempting to counter factual arguments with emotional responses.
I had a problem with my first baby too; it's not uncommon. Was it a pain? Yes, because any problem you can't solve is a pain. It's the problem which is a pain, not the child.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 01:51:33 PM
I watched this discussion unfolding last night & decided to refrain from posting in the hope that most of it would have been removed. It hasn't been. As the Mod who sought to justify his Ghoul Tours, whilst at the same time almost demanding the MCCanns listen to his superior knowledge of how Luz works, expects to retain any respect from others after referring to Madeleine as a pain in the a~~e is beyond me. I will refrain from commenting any further on this forum until that Mod has his status removed.
I would seriously suggest that anyone with a problem with this Mod simply ignores their bizarre and often deeply spiteful posts and tries not to rise to their bait, advice which I failed to take last night, more fool me.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 02:38:20 PM
This is simply the term used for a baby aged between two and 12 weeks that cries constantly. At least one in five infants born in the UK is diagnosed with colic but in fact there's an increasing body of research to show there is no such thing. http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/654538/Childcare-experts-colic-doesn-t-exist
precisely...yet sil understands everything about it and how to treat it and refers to it as simple colic...it is far far from a simple condition andnot well understood by the real experts
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 02:40:57 PM
I had a problem with my first baby too; it's not uncommon. Was it a pain? Yes, because any problem you can't solve is a pain. It's the problem which is a pain, not the child.
you are correct....the baby is NOT a pain in the a**e and anyone who suggests maddie was a pain in teh a**e has no place on this forum
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2017, 02:44:26 PM
I watched this discussion unfolding last night & decided to refrain from posting in the hope that most of it would have been removed. It hasn't been. As the Mod who sought to justify his Ghoul Tours, whilst at the same time almost demanding the MCCanns listen to his superior knowledge of how Luz works, expects to retain any respect from others after referring to Madeleine as a pain in the a~~e is beyond me. I will refrain from commenting any further on this forum until that Mod has his status removed.
It is your decision as to whether you choose to stay and contribute, stay and read only, or leave.
For the record, I saw just two posts reported last night. One was originally posted by me, and I deliberately chose to let that one be judged by another moderator, as I believe in being subject to the same rules as other commentators. Whoever modded it decided it was within the rules.
The other was posted by ... sorry, don't remember other than not by me ... I judged it conformed to forum rules and removed it from the moderation queue.
As far as I am aware, no one got warning points last night. Indeed, I would rank it as a relatively quiet Friday night.
A number of supporters chose to vent their spleen over my summation of Kate's intro to "A Family of Five". They were within the forum rules, and accordingly, I allowed all such comments to stand. That is how the forum works.
However a number of supporters, apparently including yourself, appear to think that comments critical of the McCanns are not to be permitted on this forum. That requirement is not in the forum rules, so it is not one I shall be enforcing.
It is now up to you as to whether you are as good as your word or whether you have a change of heart.
Best wishes, SIL
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 02:45:52 PM
It is your decision as to whether you choose to stay and contribute, stay and read only, or leave.
For the record, I saw just two posts reported last night. One was originally posted by me, and I deliberately chose to let that one be judged by another moderator, as I believe in being subject to the same rules as other commentators. Whoever modded it decided it was within the rules.
The other was posted by ... sorry, don't remember other than not by me ... I judged it conformed to forum rules and removed it from the moderation queue.
As far as I am aware, no one got warning points last night. Indeed, I would rank it as a relatively quiet Friday night.
A number of supporters chose to vent their spleen over my summation of Kate's intro to "A Family of Five". They were within the forum rules, and accordingly, I allowed all such comments to stand. That is how the forum works.
However a number of supporters, apparently including yourself, appear to think that comments critical of the McCanns are not to be permitted on this forum. That requirement is not in the forum rules, so it is not one I shall be enforcing.
It is now up to you as to whether you are as good as your word or whether you have a change of heart.
Best wishes, SIL
your post was critical of Maddie and is an absolute disgrace
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 11, 2017, 02:49:50 PM
2@ Alfie.
'tis thee who appears to be the one having problems with other folk.......&%+((£ I don't need you to tell others which includes me by definition to put others including forum mods on ignore. I prefer to be trifle more upstanding.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: jassi on March 11, 2017, 02:52:02 PM
your post was critical of Maddie and is an absolute disgrace
It is post 87.
It gives alternatives, such as Madeleine was simply suffering from colic. That might be critical of the parents, or of Kate's book, but it cannot be construed as being critical of Madeleine.
The list of potential alternatives to colic was an absolute hoot. 8@??)(
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 03:30:14 PM
It gives alternatives, such as Madeleine was simply suffering from colic. That might be critical of the parents, or of Kate's book, but it cannot be construed as being critical of Madeleine.
The list of potential alternatives to colic was an absolute hoot. 8@??)(
You referred to Maddie as possibly a pain in the a**e That is a disgrace You have absolutely no understanding of colic Gunit does
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 11, 2017, 03:37:20 PM
calling maddie a pain in the a**e is a disgrace....if you want to support it thats reveals your true colours too
You appear to be struggling with this, a pita is in the eye of the beholder. We can only give our opinion based on what we have been told, no first hand knowledge.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 04:03:53 PM
Feel free to repeat your inaccuracy as often as you wish. But you can't change post 87 here or page 30 of Kate's book.
Titanic plus iceberg.
Colic is far from simple Your description of it only shows your ignorance of the condition
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 04:04:39 PM
And I thought a pita was something one split open and filled with hoummous or taramasalata. Anyway, this thread is so fkin' off topic we may as well be discussing flat breads and Mediterranean dips.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Erngath on March 11, 2017, 04:06:37 PM
You appear to be struggling with this, a pita is in the eye of the beholder. We can only give our opinion based on what we have been told, no first hand knowledge.
A crying distressed baby should never be called a pain in the a##e. Whether by a beholder of the distress or not.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: faithlilly on March 11, 2017, 04:16:31 PM
"It's an insulting question to put to someone who both personally and professionally has always put the interests and safety of children first." So are you referring to yourself or someone else or parents in general?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 05:22:50 PM
"It's an insulting question to put to someone who both personally and professionally has always put the interests and safety of children first." So are you referring to yourself or someone else or parents in general?
Faithlilly knows I am a mother, grandmother and a retired teacher. Asking which of those two "crimes" I consider the greater is insulting.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 11, 2017, 05:37:14 PM
Faithlilly knows I am a mother, grandmother and a retired teacher. Asking which of those two "crimes" I consider the greater is insulting.
OK just for just for clarity which one was it? Or was it neither because the question was insulting. To call someone a pain in the arse in our country is common practice. In fact it is a bit of a joke even.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 05:45:38 PM
OK just for just for clarity which one was it? Or was it neither because the question was insulting. To call someone a pain in the arse in our country is common practice. In fact it is a bit of a joke even.
to call maddie a pain in the arse in these circumstances is a disgrace
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: faithlilly on March 11, 2017, 05:54:44 PM
Why if you don't find the question difficult do you want to do it anonymously ?
Shall I answer first? I find leaving three under 4's alone in a strange apartment much worse than calling a child ' a pain in the ar*e'. Now you ?
You see I wouldn't ask you such an insulting question. You say you know nothing about me but on this very thread I mention my experiences as a mother and grandmother. You obviously have not read all of the thread. I was not the only poster who has commented on the phrase being a pain in the a~~e being applied to a crying distressed baby being disgusting. Why put your ridiculous insulting question to only me. Start a poll and I will vote and comment.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 06:29:19 PM
WTF has Faithlilly's ridiculous question got to do with the subject of this thread anyway?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 11, 2017, 06:33:16 PM
in leaving the children there was no intent to harm.....describing a child as a pain in the arse shows an intent to be abusive
Reply 87 on this thread. 8((()*/
Mind you, after the 'reads-ratifies-signs' farrago expecting you to read what was written must be classed as a Great Expectation. It's a shame about the facts when you want to indulge in PR / Marketing / Advertising.
Reply 87. Ignore it at your peril.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Erngath on March 11, 2017, 06:35:46 PM
Mind you, after the 'reads-ratifies-signs' farrago expecting you to read what was written must be classed as a Great Expectation. It's a shame about the facts when you want to indulge in PR / Marketing / Advertising.
Reply 87. Ignore it at your peril.
you have shown an ignorance of colic and an ignorance of good taste
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 11, 2017, 06:45:17 PM
It wasn't ridiculous, unless of course you mean that the answer was so obvious that leaving 3 under 4s was far worse.
You think asking someone such an obvious question isn't ridiculous? Which do you think is the worse crime - calling the McCanns child neglectors or stoving in someone's head with an axe? Would you class that as a ridiculous question, or a reasonable one?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 11, 2017, 09:59:48 PM
2@ Alfie Who mentioned stoving heads in with axes apart from you?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 10:02:30 PM
2@ Alfie Who mentioned stoving heads in with axes apart from you?
the axe head stover is a well respected mccann sceptic....hes committed a crime but hes done his time
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 10:14:40 PM
Which is the worse crime - mockng the disabled or using a mobile phone while driving? Another ridiculous question. Let's ask loads of ridiculous questions as no one gives a stuff about the topic of this thread anymore.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2017, 10:30:24 PM
It's not difficult at all, really easy, so easy you shouldn't have to ask which is why it is insulting. Start a poll and I will vote there.
You seem very reluctant to answer the question. I assume that's because you don't want to admit that leaving small children home alone is potentially much more harmful for the children. There may be adults around whose lives were ruined because someone referred to them as 'a pain in the ar*se when they were babies, but I've yet to meet one.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 10:33:40 PM
You seem very reluctant to answer the question. I assume that's because you don't want to admit that leaving small children home alone is potentially much more harmful for the children. There may be adults around whose lives were ruined because someone referred to them as 'a pain in the ar*se when they were babies, but I've yet to meet one.
Perhaps you could provide a cite of Erngarth saying that calling a baby a pain in the arse caused them harm?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 10:34:31 PM
You seem very reluctant to answer the question. I assume that's because you don't want to admit that leaving small children home alone is potentially much more harmful for the children. There may be adults around whose lives were ruined because someone referred to them as 'a pain in the ar*se when they were babies, but I've yet to meet one.
Anyone who refers to their baby as a pain in the arse because they are ill is a potential child abuser.....babies who are ill should be cared for....not abused
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 11, 2017, 10:36:20 PM
Which is the worse crime - mockng the disabled or using a mobile phone while driving? Another ridiculous question. Let's ask loads of ridiculous questions as no one gives a stuff about the topic of this thread anymore.
Maybe your OP and overbearing attitude that it is your ball and your game has had some influence on the reaction to it? eg "so does this detail not matter to the "seekers of truth" and are they happy for the people they are seemingly trying to educate about this case to continue to believe this myth is a fact? If so, why?" Something of a gross assumption that deserved a well rounded raspberry. IMO of course. Take yer ball 'ome then mate we'll play something else.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 11, 2017, 10:37:02 PM
Out of interest, how many times does Kate McCann refer to her children as "a pain in the arse " in her book?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: faithlilly on March 11, 2017, 10:41:06 PM
You see I wouldn't ask you such an insulting question. You say you know nothing about me but on this very thread I mention my experiences as a mother and grandmother. You obviously have not read all of the thread. I was not the only poster who has commented on the phrase being a pain in the a~~e being applied to a crying distressed baby being disgusting. Why put your ridiculous insulting question to only me. Start a poll and I will vote and comment.
You are right I haven't read all the thread, I value my time. I know nothing about you and I don't think I need to to ask the question I did. It was a straightforward question but if you don't want to answer it, as I have said before, that's fine. No problem.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 11, 2017, 10:53:10 PM
So why didn't K&G simply think, Madeleine has got colic, no real treatment, she'll grow out of it?
P29. How Kate and Gerry suffered. Tough on Madeleine.
Quote
Introduction
Colic is the name for excessive, frequent crying in a baby who appears to be otherwise healthy. It's a common problem that affects up to one in five babies. Colic tends to begin when a baby is a few weeks old. It normally stops by four months of age, or by six months at the latest. Looking after a colicky baby can be very frustrating and distressing, but the problem will eventually pass and is usually nothing to worry about. Does my baby have colic? Signs and symptoms of colic include: intense crying bouts crying in the late afternoon or evening that lasts several hours your baby's face being red and flushed when they cry your baby clenching their fists, drawing their knees up to their tummy, or arching their back while crying If your baby has colic, they may appear to be in distress. But the crying outbursts are not harmful, and your baby should continue to feed and gain weight normally. Advice for parents Caring for a baby with colic can be very difficult for parents, particularly first-time parents. It's important to remember that: your baby's colic is not your fault – it doesn't mean your baby is unwell, you're doing something wrong, or your baby is rejecting you your baby will get better eventually – colic normally stops before they're four to six months old you should look after your own wellbeing – if possible, ask friends and family for support as it's important to take regular breaks and get some rest Support groups, such as Cry-sis, can also offer help and advice if you need it. You can contact the Cry-sis helpline for advice on 0845 122 8669 (9am-10pm, seven days a week). Tips for helping your baby There's no method that works for all babies with colic, but there are a number of techniques that may help. These include: holding your baby during a crying episode preventing your baby swallowing air by sitting or holding them upright during feeding burping your baby after feeds gently rocking your baby over your shoulder bathing your baby in a warm bath gently massaging your baby's tummy Some babies may also benefit from changes to their diet, such as adding drops to breast or bottle milk that aid digestion and release any bubbles of trapped air in your baby's digestive system. Speak to a GP or pharmacist for advice before trying these. Read more about treatments for colic. Do I need to see my GP? Colic may improve using the techniques mentioned above. You can also ask your health visitor for their advice. See your GP if you're concerned about your baby, or if nothing seems to be working and you're struggling to cope. Your GP can check for possible causes of your baby's crying, such as eczema or gastro-oesophageal reflux disease (GORD). GORD is a condition where stomach acid moves back out of the stomach and into the gullet (oesophagus). If no other cause of your baby's symptoms can be found, your GP can advise you about the things you can do to help your baby, including what treatments are available. When to seek immediate medical advice You should get medical help immediately if your baby: has a weak, high-pitched, or continuous cry seems floppy when you pick them up isn't feeding vomits green fluid has blood in their poo has a fever of 38C or above (if they're less than three months old) or 39C or above (if they're three to six months old) has a bulging fontanelle (the soft spot at the top of a baby's head) has a fit (seizure) turns blue, blotchy, or very pale has breathing problems, such as breathing quickly or grunting while breathing These symptoms can indicate a more serious problem. Read about spotting signs of serious illness in children for information about what to look for and where you should go for help. What causes colic? The cause or causes of colic are unknown, but a number of theories have been suggested. These include indigestion, trapped wind, or a temporary gut sensitivity to certain proteins and sugars found in breast and formula milk. It has also been suggested colic may just be at the extreme end of normal crying in babies. Colic occurs equally in boys and girls, and both in babies who are breastfed and those who are bottle-fed. Other types of colic This article focuses on infantile or baby colic. Other types of colic include: biliary colic – caused by gallstones renal colic – caused by kidney stones The main symptom of these types of colic is sudden, intense abdominal (tummy) pain.
I would suggest that the symptoms described could be indicative of all sorts of other things, perhaps serious and perhaps in need of urgent medical attention.
Kate (very properly) checked them all and eliminated the list.
Imagine the outcry (from others) if Madeleine's symptoms had been indicative of something serious she simply missed.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 11, 2017, 10:57:21 PM
I would suggest that the symptoms described could be indicative of all sorts of other things, perhaps serious and perhaps in need of urgent medical attention.
Kate (very properly) checked them all and eliminated the list.
Imagine the outcry (from others) if Madeleine's symptoms had been indicative of something serious she simply missed.
sil seems to be confusing colic and wind
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2017, 11:26:24 PM
Anyone who refers to their baby as a pain in the arse because they are ill is a potential child abuser.....babies who are ill should be cared for....not abused
I don't think there's a proven connection, unless you have some 'scientific' study you can quote? 'Colic' is unexplained crying for more than three hours a day, more than three days a week. No-one knows what causes it or how to treat it. Can it be called an illness? I think not.
Because colic isn't a disease, but rather a behavioral pattern of excessive crying, the diagnosis is very subjective.....Some doctors avoid the term altogether, feeling like it is a label that is too ambiguous and fraught with misconceptions. Other doctors favor more descriptive terms like "high-needs baby" or "immature nervous system." Ask five different doctors to describe what colic is and you'll undoubtedly get five different answers. http://www.parents.com/baby/care/colic/handling-baby-colic/
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 12, 2017, 12:08:55 AM
So - Madeleine may or may not have had colic, which may or may not even exist. Kate, a doctor, claims she did, but is this just another cunning ruse to throw us off the scent? &%+((£
All extremely mysterious I must say.
Thanks all for including this fascinating information in the thread which I propose we re-name "Any Old Shit You Fancy Arguing About While John Is Busy With His Lambs".
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 01:47:48 AM
I would suggest that the symptoms described could be indicative of all sorts of other things, perhaps serious and perhaps in need of urgent medical attention.
Kate (very properly) checked them all and eliminated the list.
Imagine the outcry (from others) if Madeleine's symptoms had been indicative of something serious she simply missed.
I have but 2 problems with this.
1 Kate's book makes no mention of checking this lot out but instead states their 'checklist' was rudimentary, so if you want to claim this, provide a cite. 2 AFAIK Diagnosis of potentially severe conditions in relatives is highly frowned on, and the accepted practice is independent medical advice.
You are digging much the same hole as 'twins might have been drugged but Kate didn't bother re independent checks'.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 02:03:07 AM
p29 "Madeleine suffered from colic." The opening sentence of chapter 3, "A Family Of Five".
Perhaps you think Kate is so poor as to misdiagnose wind as colic?
If you keep avoiding reply 87 and pages 29-31 of Kate's book, you are going to keep getting it wrong.
I have replied to 87 That's the post where you refer to Maddie as a pain in the arse Absolutely despicable Read this carefully so you understand Maddie suffered with colic Colic can be simple and easily dealt with or severe and impossible to solve When it's severe it is a nightmare You need to educate yourself before making sweeping statements
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 12, 2017, 07:27:36 AM
I have replied to 87 That's the post where you refer to Maddie as a pain in the arse Absolutely despicable Read this carefully so you understand Maddie suffered with colic Colic can be simple and easily dealt with or severe and impossible to solve When it's severe it is a nightmare You need to educate yourself before making sweeping statements
When have you dealt with colic ?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 07:30:39 AM
Seems you are the one who doesn't understand No one learns anything from google It's a search engine As for colic I'm a father to 7 So I've had some experience
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 12, 2017, 08:27:32 AM
Seems you are the one who doesn't understand No one learns anything from google It's a search engine As for colic I'm a father to 7 So I've had some experience
'No one learns anything from google'
Glad you've admitted it dave.
Mind you, we know that about you already.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 08:30:15 AM
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
ON TOPIC only posts from now on please folks. We seem to have sorted colic ... and now Google. Please try and construct the arguments around ... One enduring myth. Thank you
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
ON TOPIC only posts from now on please folks. We seem to have sorted colic ... and now Google. Please try and construct the arguments around ... One enduring myth. Thank you
The relevance of colic, Calpol, night reward chart etc is unfortunately directly relevant to the OP "the McCanns drugged their children".
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 12, 2017, 01:56:52 PM
Is it an established fact that the McCanns drugged their kids, or is it an enduring myth? Discuss.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 02:04:27 PM
colic is not relevant....if it is explain why....if not stop
Quite. Did Kate claim that Madeleine and the twins were suffering from colic whilst on holiday on Portugal? I don't think so. Does Kate mention drugging Madeleine when she was a baby to alleviate the colic? I don't think so.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
It's neither imo. Firstly, it has never been established that anyone was drugged. Secondly, there's no evidence that it's a widely held opinion.
It was an opinion that I saw repeated numerous times in comments discussing the latest twitter storms of Danczuk and the other nonentity whose name escapes me. My observation is that amongst those that hold a negative view of the McCanns that "drugging the kids to go on the piss" has become part of the hateful narrative.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
It was an opinion that I saw repeated numerous times in comments discussing the latest twitter storms of Danczuk and the other nonentity whose name escapes me. My observation is that amongst those that hold a negative view of the McCanns that "drugging the kids to go on the piss" has become part of the hateful narrative.
It will be seen under every and any media outlet which allows comment ... it will be seen under every and any Madeleine related youtube video which allows comment.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2017, 02:43:44 PM
It will be seen under every and any media outlet which allows comment ... it will be seen under every and any Madeleine related youtube video which allows comment.
According to those who support the McCann viewpoint these comments are made by the same small number of people every time. If that is true, not many people believe it. Therefore it doesn't meet the 'widely held' criterion necessary to classify as a myth.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 03:33:20 PM
colic is not relevant....if it is explain why....if not stop calpol is not relevant it is not a sedative
p29 etc of the book and reply 87, which you appear to be avoiding like the plague.
Alfie has now moved the goalposts to 'evidence', but it really doesn't change much in the course of things. As far as the relevant police force and child care experts were concerned there was insufficient evidence to charge the McCanns with anything, and insufficient evidence to warrant putting the twins in care in the UK or otherwise monitoring them. Consequently somewhat of a non-debate.
As I have explained before, consensus of opinion here is that the McCanns 'dunnit' whatever 'dunnit' means, so it looks as if the McCann PR machine is pretty much a failure here. I am not in a position to comment on the UK sentiment, since I am not plugged in to any source I would trust.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 04:09:39 PM
Would the supporters kindly make up their collective mind?
Either Madeleine had colic, a not uncommon occurrence, which doctors should have recognised and known it would pass.
Or she was up for grabs for umpty nasty alternatives as Googled by Davel, in which case she should have had independent qualified medical testing.
Or she was a pain in the a**e, whom Kate wanted to unload onto Gerry as soon as he walked through the door, so that Kate could have a pee break and give her arm a rest.
Maddie had colic which Kate recognised. Colic is not as simple as you think and can be mild easily treated or very severe. It looks like Maddies was severe.
kate would have looked at other causes of maddies discomfort and ruled them out
Your description of maddie is despicable
now apart from an opportunity for you to slag off the mccanns ....which you seem to be doing more and more....what is the relevance of colic to this thread
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 12, 2017, 04:33:13 PM
What is this "Alfie has moved the goalposts" accusation? I have done no such thing.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 07:43:21 PM
Maddie had colic which Kate recognised. Colic is not as simple as you think and can be mild easily treated or very severe. It looks like Maddies was severe.
kate would have looked at other causes of maddies discomfort and ruled them out
Your description of maddie is despicable
now apart from an opportunity for you to slag off the mccanns ....which you seem to be doing more and more....what is the relevance of colic to this thread
Alfie's use of the word 'drugged' in the OP.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 09:32:47 PM
.... I was going to watch the Amaral Documentaries again for old times sake. Wait 24 hours before deleting please.
https://youtu.be/-FKsKD78Qsc?t=59 for a starter.
https://youtu.be/-FKsKD78Qsc?t=113 (the church coffin claim)
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 09:45:04 PM
Gonçalo Amaral Former Polícia Judiciária coordinator
00.33 - My name is Gonçalo Amaral. I’ve been an investigator with the Polícia Judiciária for 27 years. I coordinated the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, on the 3rd of May 2007.
00.48 - During the following 50 minutes, I will prove that the child was not abducted, and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
00.58 - Discover the whole truth about what happened that day – a death that many people want to cover up.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 09:49:00 PM
So how could the mccanns counter this sort of campaign when amaral was able to claim he could prove maddie died in the apartment........amaral was talking tosh and able to get away with it
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 09:51:08 PM
Several uncited posts which appear to have been libellous have been deleted. Do not re-post them, unless of course you provide a cite.
Note the rule. "Libellous or defamatory material will be removed on sight.". This clearly prohibits a grace period of 24hrs.
8((()*/
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 09:52:27 PM
So how could the mccanns counter this sort of campaign when amaral was able to claim he could prove maddie died in the apartment........amaral was talking tosh and able to get away with it
OK they have not won as yet but they have stood up and the world has taken notice of the corruption. I find Kate remarkably courageous.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 09:55:08 PM
Amaral cannot prove maddie died in the apartment so he went on tv and told a lie
Where's your cite? I suppose we can claim freedom of expression, which appears more important than a good name in Portuguese Law. Cite for this is the SC judgement.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 10:02:43 PM
But it appears that common knowledge needs to be cited as well. This will make it hard for the ants to make any claims. I like it. Where's your cite?
perhaps it isnt common knowledge...it seems some of those pontificating about the case simply are not aware of the true facts in this case. ....sil has deleted some of her own posts which shows she was not aware of things amaral has said...sil thought amaral was proposing a thesis whereas he was stating things as facts
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 10:06:22 PM
perhaps it isnt common knowledge...it seems some of those pontificating about the case simply are not aware of the true facts in this case. ....sil has deleted some of her own posts which shows she was not aware of things amaral has said...sil thought amaral was proposing a thesis whereas he was stating things as facts
Facts that were yet to be proved, so were they facts or was it a thesis? It certainly made the book fly off the shelves. He appears to be a marketing genius. Did or got all the things done in the right order too. Resigned not just reassigned. Got his friend Tavares to repeat his claims in a document within the file. Then got the case archived and then got the files released (something that does not normally happen). Once all those were in place he was able to release his book which had already been given promotional priority along with the Newspaper.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 10:07:23 PM
Gonçalo Amaral Former Polícia Judiciária coordinator
00.33 - My name is Gonçalo Amaral. I’ve been an investigator with the Polícia Judiciária for 27 years. I coordinated the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, on the 3rd of May 2007.
00.48 - During the following 50 minutes, I will prove that the child was not abducted, and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
00.58 - Discover the whole truth about what happened that day – a death that many people want to cover up.
Finally, a cite. I cannot hear the video clearly enough to verify the Portuguese, therefore I am assuming someone with better hearing has checked this.
As to your deleted posts, these have disappeared forever. AFAIK, they cannot be re-instated by anyone.
Perhaps in future, when you are repeatedly asked for a cite, you will provide it, to avoid such deletions.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 10:14:58 PM
Finally, a cite. I cannot hear the video clearly enough to verify the Portuguese, therefore I am assuming someone with better hearing has checked this.
As to your deleted posts, these have disappeared forever. AFAIK, they cannot be re-instated by anyone.
Perhaps in future, when you are repeatedly asked for a cite, you will provide it, to avoid such deletions.
what I have stated is common knowledge amongst those who have followed the case...why have you deleted your own posts which show you were simply not aware of the basic facts in this case
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 10:16:13 PM
Finally, a cite. I cannot hear the video clearly enough to verify the Portuguese, therefore I am assuming someone with better hearing has checked this.
As to your deleted posts, these have disappeared forever. AFAIK, they cannot be re-instated by anyone.
Perhaps in future, when you are repeatedly asked for a cite, you will provide it, to avoid such deletions.
yes just checked and it shows you have deleted several of your own posts....LOL
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 10:18:17 PM
what I have stated is common knowledge amongst those who have followed the case...why have you deleted your own posts which show you were simply not aware of the basic facts in this case
Maybe that is freedom of expression too. Don't complain, as it means we too can delete comments after the event as well.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 10:20:03 PM
So how could the mccanns counter this sort of campaign when amaral was able to claim he could prove maddie died in the apartment........amaral was talking tosh and able to get away with it
Sitting on a large donations fighting fund, armed with a supposedly top PR adviser, free from judicial secrecy, in possession of professionally-translated PJ Files, being an ultra hot topic in Portugal, and of course having first-hand access to inside information, allegedly believing that an on-going search in Portugal was critical?
Are you being serious?
Here's a thought. Countering Amaral might well have brought in yet more cash for the Find Madeleine fund, both via appearance money and donations.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 12, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Sitting on a large donations fighting fund, armed with a supposedly top PR adviser, free from judicial secrecy, in possession of professionally-translated PJ Files, being an ultra hot topic in Portugal, and of course having first-hand access to inside information, allegedly believing that an on-going search in Portugal was critical?
Are you being serious?
Here's a thought. Countering Amaral might well have brought in yet more cash for the Find Madeleine fund, both via appearance money and donations.
amaral has told lies...we have established that he is backed by portuguese TV portugues press Portuguese courts
amaral cannot be countered in portugal ...you are delusional if you think he can be
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 10:27:01 PM
perhaps it isnt common knowledge...it seems some of those pontificating about the case simply are not aware of the true facts in this case. ....sil has deleted some of her own posts which shows she was not aware of things amaral has said...sil thought amaral was proposing a thesis whereas he was stating things as facts
I deleted several of my own posts since they contained material that could be deemed libellous in the absence of a cite from you. Fácil.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 10:29:10 PM
perhaps it isnt common knowledge...it seems some of those pontificating about the case simply are not aware of the true facts in this case. ....sil has deleted some of her own posts which shows she was not aware of things amaral has said...sil thought amaral was proposing a thesis whereas he was stating things as facts
No doubt you will inform the Portuguese legal authorities of this, just in case Duarte hasn't.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 12, 2017, 10:32:31 PM
Facts that were yet to be proved, so were they facts or was it a thesis? It certainly made the book fly off the shelves. He appears to be a marketing genius. Did or got all the things done in the right order too. Resigned not just reassigned. Got his friend Tavares to repeat his claims in a document within the file. Then got the case archived and then got the files released (something that does not normally happen). Once all those were in place he was able to release his book which had already been given promotional priority along with the Newspaper.
AFAIK, I am legally entitled to see the files in archived cases. It is unusual that these are released on DVDs. And Amaral was in no position to orchestrate the release or the release method.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 10:43:10 PM
No doubt you will inform the Portuguese legal authorities of this, just in case Duarte hasn't.
It is a disgrace that the Portuguese courts have allowed amaral to state as a fact that Maddie died in the apartment when there is no proof she is dead A disgrace
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 12, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
You were asked why you keep banging on about colic. I used the word drugged to describe the one enduring myth about the McCanns. Perhaps you could therefore explain what dots you are joining and the picture you see before you because as far as I'm concerned it looks a bit like a pile of bullshit from where I'm sitting.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 12, 2017, 11:30:55 PM
amaral has told lies...we have established that he is backed by portuguese TV portugues press Portuguese courts
amaral cannot be countered in portugal ...you are delusional if you think he can be
The trashing of the McCanns and the friends with whom they were on holiday continues unabated on Portuguese television channel CMTV.
The old myths have been resurrected as a result of the appeal court judges' interpretation of criminal law in a civil case judgement. With the worst type of accusation being banded about with unreconstructed viciousness.
The toleration of such conduct live on the airways is inimical with a society which allegedly promotes dignity, honour and the peoples' rights. A truly free society would never allow anyone whether Madeleine's parents and their friends or not, to be deprived of any rights at all. The fact that the Judiciary have been the catalyst for this current disgraceful display of ignorance should give all Portuguese citizens pause for concerned contemplation.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 12, 2017, 11:38:56 PM
You were asked why you keep banging on about colic. I used the word drugged to describe the one enduring myth about the McCanns. Perhaps you could therefore explain what dots you are joining and the picture you see before you because as far as I'm concerned it looks a bit like a pile of bullshit from where I'm sitting.
Colic - need to get sleep. Madeleine - the crying incident. Twins - unresponsive as if drugged.
The one thing I can tell with supporters is that when they feel the need to throw in 'drugged', 'pile of bullshit', Amaral unbeatable in Portugal, fascist judgement, then a nerve has been hit.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 11:49:56 PM
It is a disgrace that the Portuguese courts have allowed amaral to state as a fact that Maddie died in the apartment when there is no proof she is dead A disgrace
One of the Court proceedings used the words "interpretation of the facts" so that does not mean the facts exists that Madeleine died in the apartment but just Amaral's interpretations of other facts allows him to make this claim. Yet I have to be corrected for in this interview he claims his thesis is "factual truth". Therefore it can't be claimed as a thesis anymore. https://youtu.be/-FKsKD78Qsc?t=890
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2017, 11:51:44 PM
You were asked why you keep banging on about colic. I used the word drugged to describe the one enduring myth about the McCanns. Perhaps you could therefore explain what dots you are joining and the picture you see before you because as far as I'm concerned it looks a bit like a pile of bullshit from where I'm sitting.
From the perspective of an earthworm a pile of bullshit would be a right royal banquet.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
No it was the anchor who said that https://youtu.be/-FKsKD78Qsc?t=890 Talk about two speaking at once, just about impossible for a non-Portuguese speaking person to tell what is being said.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2017, 06:29:36 AM
The trashing of the McCanns and the friends with whom they were on holiday continues unabated on Portuguese television channel CMTV.
The old myths have been resurrected as a result of the appeal court judges' interpretation of criminal law in a civil case judgement. With the worst type of accusation being banded about with unreconstructed viciousness.
The toleration of such conduct live on the airways is inimical with a society which allegedly promotes dignity, honour and the peoples' rights. A truly free society would never allow anyone whether Madeleine's parents and their friends or not, to be deprived of any rights at all. The fact that the Judiciary have been the catalyst for this current disgraceful display of ignorance should give all Portuguese citizens pause for concerned contemplation.
Really? What have they said? Do you have cites?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2017, 07:18:03 AM
Unlike the investigators of first instance who managed to confuse fiction for reality if their 'leaking sources' are anything at all to go by.
Syringe that 'knocked out' Maddie found 30-08-07
Daily Star by Jerry Lawton 30 August 2007
Family fury at new claims
POLICE found a syringe in the holiday apartment where Madeleine McCann vanished, it was claimed last night.
Detectives are probing whether it was used to administer sedatives to the four-year-old and her twin siblings Sean and Amelie, according to a Portuguese newspaper.
Last night Madeleine's heart surgeon dad Gerry and GP mum Kate, both 39, were unavailable for comment on the alleged discovery.
But their spokesman Justine McGuinness said: "This is yet another piece of ridiculous speculation without any base in fact.
"Kate and Gerry are responsible and loving parents.
"They have said in the past they have never used sedatives on their children." Police declined to comment on the paper's claims.
Though they have stated the McCanns are not suspects, detectives are baffled that their twins never stirred the night Madeleine vanished from the apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.
They had hoped the two-year-olds, who were asleep in cots either side of their sister's bed, could be key witnesses.
But the pair were carried still sleeping from the apartment by police officers.
The mystery has fuelled speculation in the Portuguese media that Madeleine and the twins were given drugs to help them sleep while their parents went out.
The McCanns were dining in a tapas bar 40 yards away when their daughter vanished on May 3.
Last night a friend of the couple said the barrage of allegations by the Portuguese media had prompted the McCanns to decide to return to Britain within a fortnight. The pal said: "They've had enough." Gerry yesterday begged his daughter's abductor to hand her back.
He said the kidnapper may have taken her in an "act of madness" which they might not understand themselves.
On his daily internet blog he said "like everyone else" he and Kate were awaiting the results of DNA tests on the blood found in their apartment.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic14571.html
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 13, 2017, 08:12:21 AM
Colic - need to get sleep. Madeleine - the crying incident. Twins - unresponsive as if drugged.
The one thing I can tell with supporters is that when they feel the need to throw in 'drugged', 'pile of bullshit', Amaral unbeatable in Portugal, fascist judgement, then a nerve has been hit.
Is that your raison d'etre then, to hit a nerve? Your posts rarely address the questions and even more rarely make any sense, the above is a prime example of both.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 13, 2017, 08:18:55 AM
another excerpt from the tv programme...
.50 – That was how it was. The dog that marks (alerts to) human cadaver odour marked cadaver odour in this corner, the doors were open when the test was made, and after walking around the parents’ bedroom, he placed his nose in here and marked this area. So according to the expert, a cadaver was here, either on the shelf or on the floor.
how is amaral allowed to getaway with telling such lies.....the portuguese public hav been lied to...no wonder they do not believe teh mccanns
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 08:21:52 AM
Is that your raison d'etre then, to hit a nerve? Your posts rarely address the questions and even more rarely make any sense, the above is a prime example of both.
Why did you waste your time on this?
Brietta posts a media report on an alleged syringe and potential sedation and you cannot see a link between sleeping issues and drugged?
Surely not.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2017, 08:44:57 AM
Unlike the investigators of first instance who managed to confuse fiction for reality if their 'leaking sources' are anything at all to go by.
Syringe that 'knocked out' Maddie found 30-08-07
Daily Star by Jerry Lawton 30 August 2007
Family fury at new claims
POLICE found a syringe in the holiday apartment where Madeleine McCann vanished, it was claimed last night.
Detectives are probing whether it was used to administer sedatives to the four-year-old and her twin siblings Sean and Amelie, according to a Portuguese newspaper.
Last night Madeleine's heart surgeon dad Gerry and GP mum Kate, both 39, were unavailable for comment on the alleged discovery.
But their spokesman Justine McGuinness said: "This is yet another piece of ridiculous speculation without any base in fact.
"Kate and Gerry are responsible and loving parents.
"They have said in the past they have never used sedatives on their children." Police declined to comment on the paper's claims.
Though they have stated the McCanns are not suspects, detectives are baffled that their twins never stirred the night Madeleine vanished from the apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.
They had hoped the two-year-olds, who were asleep in cots either side of their sister's bed, could be key witnesses.
But the pair were carried still sleeping from the apartment by police officers.
The mystery has fuelled speculation in the Portuguese media that Madeleine and the twins were given drugs to help them sleep while their parents went out.
The McCanns were dining in a tapas bar 40 yards away when their daughter vanished on May 3.
Last night a friend of the couple said the barrage of allegations by the Portuguese media had prompted the McCanns to decide to return to Britain within a fortnight. The pal said: "They've had enough." Gerry yesterday begged his daughter's abductor to hand her back.
He said the kidnapper may have taken her in an "act of madness" which they might not understand themselves.
On his daily internet blog he said "like everyone else" he and Kate were awaiting the results of DNA tests on the blood found in their apartment.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic14571.html
August 2007? That isn't 'after the appeal' and it isn't anything to do with CMTV. Your cite needs to demonstrate the truth of what you posted;
The trashing of the McCanns and the friends with whom they were on holiday continues unabated on Portuguese television channel CMTV.
The old myths have been resurrected as a result of the appeal court judges' interpretation of criminal law in a civil case judgement. With the worst type of accusation being banded about with unreconstructed viciousness. March 12, 2017, 11:30:55 PM
PS I love your phrasing, but can you explain how one reconstructs one's viciousness?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2017, 09:17:11 AM
Maybe SIL can tell us what is happening re the McCann case in Portugal currently.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 13, 2017, 09:22:09 AM
Brietta posts a media report on an alleged syringe and potential sedation and you cannot see a link between sleeping issues and drugged?
Surely not.
Colic occurs in young babies, do you agree? None of the McCann kids were young babies, agreed? There is no drug you can give to young babies to cure colic, do you agree? Now tell me again why you brought up the issue of colic, not only colic but your assertion that the McCanns didn't realise it was colic and didn't realise that it would eventually pass? What was the purpose of that observation exactly, and how does it relate to the myth of sedation? In your own time...
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 09:43:12 AM
Maybe SIL can tell us what is happening re the McCann case in Portugal currently.
If you mean McCanns v Amaral, I am not following the case because it is not going to tell me anything about how Madeleine disappeared.
Plus, I very seldom watch Portuguese TV and I never buy Portuguese newspapers.
My only real interest is in the end-impact on the Find Madeleine fund, and for that I will await the outcome of their complaint, and then no doubt an extended process of rear-guard action if the McCanns are required to cough up large sums of money.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 09:46:54 AM
Colic occurs in young babies, do you agree? None of the McCann kids were young babies, agreed? There is no drug you can give to young babies to cure colic, do you agree? Now tell me again why you brought up the issue of colic, not only colic but your assertion that the McCanns didn't realise it was colic and didn't realise that it would eventually pass? What was the purpose of that observation exactly, and how does it relate to the myth of sedation? In your own time...
I have done so already. Madeleine's sleeping issues and habits, starting from when she was born. Please don't simply repeat the same question again. My life expectancy is short enough without this game.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2017, 09:49:38 AM
If you mean McCanns v Amaral, I am not following the case because it is not going to tell me anything about how Madeleine disappeared.
Plus, I very seldom watch Portuguese TV and I never buy Portuguese newspapers.
My only real interest is in the end-impact on the Find Madeleine fund, and for that I will await the outcome of their complaint, and then no doubt an extended process of rear-guard action if the McCanns are required to cough up large sums of money.
So how did you come to this conclusion? Just curious.
Quote from yourself
As I have explained before, consensus of opinion here is that the McCanns 'dunnit' whatever 'dunnit' means, unquote
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2017, 09:50:58 AM
August 2007? That isn't 'after the appeal' and it isn't anything to do with CMTV. Your cite needs to demonstrate the truth of what you posted;
The trashing of the McCanns and the friends with whom they were on holiday continues unabated on Portuguese television channel CMTV.
The old myths have been resurrected as a result of the appeal court judges' interpretation of criminal law in a civil case judgement. With the worst type of accusation being banded about with unreconstructed viciousness. March 12, 2017, 11:30:55 PM
PS I love your phrasing, but can you explain how one reconstructs one's viciousness?
Easily ... just take your pick.
unreconstructed [uhn-ree-kuh n-struhk-tid]
adjective 1. stubbornly maintaining earlier positions, beliefs, etc.; not adjusted to new or current situations: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/unreconstructed
Synonyms for unreconstructed uncompromising ~ ultraconservative ~ convinced ~ dyed in the wool ~ extremist ~ immovable ~ inflexible ~ intransigent ~ philistine ~ reactionary ~ etcetera, etcetera
I have made reference to information readily available on fora which owe their existence to pejorative portrayals of the McCanns backed up with transcripts translated from Portuguese to English.
I did not quote directly. To do so would have ensured deletion from this forum because the comments made by the participants and broadcast on prime time are not only distastefully malignant but are libellous.
Just google "CMTV Debate on the Supreme Court Ruling and the Maddie Case" which is what I did to get there ... enjoy ...
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2017, 09:52:38 AM
So how did you come to this conclusion? Just curious.
Quote from yourself
As I have explained before, consensus of opinion here is that the McCanns 'dunnit' whatever 'dunnit' means, unquote
Take your pick.
Personal experience. Raising the case here normally results in a rolling of the eyes followed by 'everybody knows the McCanns dunnit'.
Facebook. I have tracked a number of people I know here who post on Facebook. I would class their opinions as virulently anti-McCann.
On-line. Where possible, I prefer to check articles that have been translated from Portuguese into English by reading the Portuguese version, to avoid potential translation bias Most of the comments in Portuguese are to the effect that the McCanns dunnit.
CMTV. On 3 May 2016, a visitor to Luz bumped into the CMTV team as they were filming a 9th anniversary piece. The visitor then explained a theory that certainly seemed to have the attention of OG at the time, and which exonerated the McCanns. The CMTV team listened but explained back that they were not interested as the Portuguese people would only accept reports with a McCann dunnit flavour.
The last personal conversation with a local went along the following lines. "So you're interested in the Madeleine case? It's obvious the McCanns did it. Did you know that Kate went out running the very next morning?" For the avoidance of doubt, this is just one of several scurrilous rumours that pass for 'knowledge' here.
I could go on with further examples. Let's just saying getting beyond 'the McCanns dunnit' for any reasonable discussion is rarer than hen's teeth.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2017, 10:34:34 AM
Personal experience. Raising the case here normally results in a rolling of the eyes followed by 'everybody knows the McCanns dunnit'.
Facebook. I have tracked a number of people I know here who post on Facebook. I would class their opinions as virulently anti-McCann.
On-line. Where possible, I prefer to check articles that have been translated from Portuguese into English by reading the Portuguese version, to avoid potential translation bias Most of the comments in Portuguese are to the effect that the McCanns dunnit.
CMTV. On 3 May 2016, a visitor to Luz bumped into the CMTV team as they were filming a 9th anniversary piece. The visitor then explained a theory that certainly seemed to have the attention of OG at the time, and which exonerated the McCanns. The CMTV team listened but explained back that they were not interested as the Portuguese people would only accept reports with a McCann dunnit flavour.
The last personal conversation with a local went along the following lines. "So you're interested in the Madeleine case? It's obvious the McCanns did it. Did you know that Kate went out running the very next morning?" For the avoidance of doubt, this is just one of several scurrilous rumours that pass for 'knowledge' here.
I could go on with further examples. Let's just saying getting beyond 'the McCanns dunnit' for any reasonable discussion is rarer than hen's teeth.
Thanks for that.
Again just out of interest did you inform that local that what he/she believed about Kate going running the next morning was completely untrue?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2017, 10:57:22 AM
adjective 1. stubbornly maintaining earlier positions, beliefs, etc.; not adjusted to new or current situations: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/unreconstructed
Synonyms for unreconstructed uncompromising ~ ultraconservative ~ convinced ~ dyed in the wool ~ extremist ~ immovable ~ inflexible ~ intransigent ~ philistine ~ reactionary ~ etcetera, etcetera
I have made reference to information readily available on fora which owe their existence to pejorative portrayals of the McCanns backed up with transcripts translated from Portuguese to English.
I did not quote directly. To do so would have ensured deletion from this forum because the comments made by the participants and broadcast on prime time are not only distastefully malignant but are libellous.
Just google "CMTV Debate on the Supreme Court Ruling and the Maddie Case" which is what I did to get there ... enjoy ...
It seems weird to comment on something we're not allowed to link to. but if you can I suppose I can reply. What I saw was people who haven't changed their opinion on the case at all. I don't think that makes them unique, it applies to a lot of people. Did you describe them as vicious, because they take a different stance than you do?
Otherwise there was satisfaction with the declaration of the SC judges that archiving does not equate to innocence.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 11:06:49 AM
Again just out of interest did you inform that local that what he/she believed about Kate going running the next morning was completely untrue?
No. I have found that whether someone is knowledgeable about the case or ignorant of the facts, having the truth explained to them is not going to sway their opinion.
The Luz tours I have done are restricted to those who are knowledgeable. That way I don't waste my time shovelling dross like 'Kate went running the next morning' or 'the Tapas 9 went to the quiz night at Chaplins' or '3 people were seen going into the church with a bag, and there was a coffin with an English lady who was going to be cremated'.
It's not that I sway any 'expert' from their views. I simply get a more interesting conversational exchange and pick up pieces of information I was previously unaware of. And as it happens, I have submitted information to OG after such an exchange, with only the bog standard auto reply as per normal.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 13, 2017, 12:41:20 PM
Personal experience. Raising the case here normally results in a rolling of the eyes followed by 'everybody knows the McCanns dunnit'.
Facebook. I have tracked a number of people I know here who post on Facebook. I would class their opinions as virulently anti-McCann.
On-line. Where possible, I prefer to check articles that have been translated from Portuguese into English by reading the Portuguese version, to avoid potential translation bias Most of the comments in Portuguese are to the effect that the McCanns dunnit.
CMTV. On 3 May 2016, a visitor to Luz bumped into the CMTV team as they were filming a 9th anniversary piece. The visitor then explained a theory that certainly seemed to have the attention of OG at the time, and which exonerated the McCanns. The CMTV team listened but explained back that they were not interested as the Portuguese people would only accept reports with a McCann dunnit flavour.
The last personal conversation with a local went along the following lines. "So you're interested in the Madeleine case? It's obvious the McCanns did it. Did you know that Kate went out running the very next morning?" For the avoidance of doubt, this is just one of several scurrilous rumours that pass for 'knowledge' here.
I could go on with further examples. Let's just saying getting beyond 'the McCanns dunnit' for any reasonable discussion is rarer than hen's teeth.
And do most people you communicate with think the McCanns drugged their kids to go and get drunk? Let's at least try and pretend to post on topic....
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 13, 2017, 12:48:43 PM
Personal experience. Raising the case here normally results in a rolling of the eyes followed by 'everybody knows the McCanns dunnit'.
Facebook. I have tracked a number of people I know here who post on Facebook. I would class their opinions as virulently anti-McCann.
On-line. Where possible, I prefer to check articles that have been translated from Portuguese into English by reading the Portuguese version, to avoid potential translation bias Most of the comments in Portuguese are to the effect that the McCanns dunnit.
CMTV. On 3 May 2016, a visitor to Luz bumped into the CMTV team as they were filming a 9th anniversary piece. The visitor then explained a theory that certainly seemed to have the attention of OG at the time, and which exonerated the McCanns. The CMTV team listened but explained back that they were not interested as the Portuguese people would only accept reports with a McCann dunnit flavour.
The last personal conversation with a local went along the following lines. "So you're interested in the Madeleine case? It's obvious the McCanns did it. Did you know that Kate went out running the very next morning?" For the avoidance of doubt, this is just one of several scurrilous rumours that pass for 'knowledge' here.
I could go on with further examples. Let's just saying getting beyond 'the McCanns dunnit' for any reasonable discussion is rarer than hen's teeth.
So it seems the Portuguese doubt the McCanns because they don't know the true facts
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2017, 12:51:47 PM
It seems weird to comment on something we're not allowed to link to. but if you can I suppose I can reply. What I saw was people who haven't changed their opinion on the case at all. I don't think that makes them unique, it applies to a lot of people. Did you describe them as vicious, because they take a different stance than you do?
Otherwise there was satisfaction with the declaration of the SC judges that archiving does not equate to innocence.
In describing a television broadcast which slammed libel upon libel hardly bothering with libellous innuendo ... it was immediately apparent that open season had certainly been declared on the McCanns and their friends ... that is if it had ever been closed.
Read carefully what I actually said about that ... "With the worst type of accusation being banded about with unreconstructed viciousness." ... which does not match your paraphrased version of what you say I said. I do wish you were able to present your case without the necessity for invention.
However while reading the transcript yet again to refresh on the libellous accusations being reiterated, the reputations being trashed with "unreconstructed viciousness" and the embellishing of quite a few of the more scurrilous myths, I also read the header on the site.
Which proudly quotes from the Portuguese Constitution as follows ... 1.Everyone shall possess the right to freely express and publicise his thoughts in words, images or by any other means, as well as the right to inform others, inform himself and be informed without hindrance or discrimination 2.Exercise of the said rights shall not be hindered or limited by any type or form of censorship. Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, Article 37.º
However the Constitution consists of much more than Goncalo Amaral's freedom of expression and thus the freedom apparently enjoyed by television panellists to destroy the good name of whoever may take the fancy of the moment. It includes ... Article 16 Scope and sense of fundamental rights 1. The fundamental rights enshrined in the Constitution do not exclude any others contained in applicable laws and rules of international law.
2. The constitutional and legal precepts relating to fundamental rights must be interpreted and integrated in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. http://www.parlamento.pt/Legislacao/Paginas/ConstituicaoRepublicaPortuguesa.aspx#art37
Perhaps the television panellists et al should consider tempering their enthusiasm until they see how the McCanns might react to the rights enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic which incorporate the guarantee of the implementation of International law.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 13, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
And do most people you communicate with think the McCanns drugged their kids to go and get drunk? Let's at least try and pretend to post on topic....
Benice posed a civil question and I had the decency to explain.
As I said, it's tough to get beyond rolled eyes and something that equates to the McCanns dunnit, and that is a conversation stopper.
Quite whether they think what the McCanns dun was drugging their kids to go and get drunk - who knows - we almost never get beyond the McCanns dunnit part.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 01:27:25 PM
So it seems the Portuguese doubt the McCanns because they don't know the true facts
That would depend, I think, on how the archiving report was handled in the media and whether people were interested in it enough to read it directly themselves and make up their own minds.
I find most news reports to be factual and unbiased. The coverage of the Smithman e-fits seemed not perfect, but largely factual and a simple reporting of the OG development.
The issue is opinion pieces, and discussion shows where the interviewer is trying for something spicy by pushing the envelope.
And the majority of people I get to talk to here about the case are not Portuguese. The person making the 'Kate went running the next day' error is English.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 13, 2017, 01:29:31 PM
That would depend, I think, on how the archiving report was handled in the media and whether people were interested in it enough to read it directly themselves and make up their own minds.
I find most news reports to be factual and unbiased. The coverage of the Smithman e-fits seemed not perfect, but largely factual and a simple reporting of the OG development.
The issue is opinion pieces, and discussion shows where the interviewer is trying for something spicy by pushing the envelope.
And the majority of people I get to talk to here about the case are not Portuguese. The person making the 'Kate went running the next day' error is English.
The point is that she believes the McCanns are guilty based on at least one thing that is patently untrue We have also seen how inaccurate the documentary was... claiming things that were totally untrue I would say everyone I have heard who thinks the McCanns are involved believe s things that are untrue
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
The point is that she believes the McCanns are guilty based on at least one thing that is patently untrue We have also seen how inaccurate the documentary was... claiming things that were totally untrue I would say everyone I have heard who thinks the McCanns are involved believe s things that are untrue
Would you say anything else ?
NO.
I can say the same thing about abduction, and those who claim there is evidence of that.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 13, 2017, 01:58:45 PM
Thanks in part to the McCanns not conducting the PR campaign they were so well placed to do.
What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2017, 02:03:24 PM
Good grief.
Having not posted at all today, and as far as I can tell, my (supported) posts of unassailable truth from yesterday remain largely on the board and yet I am up to 40% sin-bin points, just an hour or so ago.
What goes on?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2017, 02:03:51 PM
they were cleared of their arguido status........and there is still no suggestion from the police that they are suspected of any crime..
This headline by a newspaper pales into significance to the false claims made by amaral
I can never make up my mind if he made up a theory or made claims of fact. Was it material fact rather than his facts. How many types of fact are there? True facts, material facts, facts and thesis.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 13, 2017, 07:33:15 PM
I can never make up my mind if he made up a theory or made claims of fact. Was it material fact rather than his facts. How many types of fact are there? True facts, material facts, facts and thesis.
Try researching and actually listen to the Portuguese program from last year.
The PJ found no evidence of abduction. They were then directed to go for abduction by the UK Police.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2017, 07:36:03 PM
I'm tending to agree with Moita Flores and this sentiment ""With the €96,000 awarded by the British government, they should be doing a reconstruction in Praia da Luz", he told Flash!. "It is the only way to resolve the case"."
Ask those original persons back for a reconstruction. Its not too late.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 13, 2017, 08:18:42 PM
I'm tending to agree with Moita Flores and this sentiment ""With the €96,000 awarded by the British government, they should be doing a reconstruction in Praia da Luz", he told Flash!. "It is the only way to resolve the case"."
Ask those original persons back for a reconstruction. Its not too late.
It's pointless now.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2017, 08:21:37 PM
I'm tending to agree with Moita Flores and this sentiment ""With the €96,000 awarded by the British government, they should be doing a reconstruction in Praia da Luz", he told Flash!. "It is the only way to resolve the case"."
Ask those original persons back for a reconstruction. Its not too late.
As per usual with anyone who calls for a recon - he gives no explanation whatsoever as to how or why he believes 'it is the only way to resolve the case' - just as we never get an explanation as to how a recon would demonstrate the McCanns innocence.
Those are massive claims to make, and also very easy ones - when you are never asked to explain how a recon could possibly be achieved by 10 people who, because they cannot give the times of their movements with the degree of accuracy which it would be essential to know - could not possibly accurately recreate their movements of 3rd May. And unless they could do that with the required accuracy - it would be a completely futile exercise.
It's hard to believe that anyone - after giving a few minutes thought to the facts - can't see that. I can only assume they stop thinking as soon as they've said.... 'They should do a recon'.
AIMHO
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 14, 2017, 11:16:55 AM
As per usual with anyone who calls for a recon - he gives no explanation whatsoever as to how or why he believes 'it is the only way to resolve the case' - just as we never get an explanation as to how a recon would demonstrate the McCanns innocence.
Those are massive claims to make, and also very easy ones - when you are never asked to explain how a recon could possibly be achieved by 10 people who, because they cannot give the times of their movements with the degree of accuracy which it would be essential to know - could not possibly accurately recreate their movements of 3rd May. And unless they could do that with the required accuracy - it would be a completely futile exercise.
It's hard to believe that anyone - after giving a few minutes thought to the facts - can't see that. I can only assume they stop thinking as soon as they've said.... 'They should do a recon'.
AIMHO
It will show their innocence by emphasising someone else's guilt. Firstly the ones who don't turn up are suspect.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 14, 2017, 11:18:59 AM
The reconstruction of events that day and or evening is very unlikely to advance the investigation now, whoever took Madeleine and from where slipped through the net it appears. Or may have been briefly noticed when it was too late. I do really consider this to be a case of bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted I'm afraid
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 14, 2017, 11:25:04 AM
The reconstruction of events that day and or evening is very unlikely to advance the investigation now, whoever took Madeleine and from where slipped through the net it appears. Or may have been briefly noticed when it was too late. I do really consider this to be a case of bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted I'm afraid
Lots of it would be difficult to reproduce, but was it possible to see the twins with the door at the degree of opening as Matt said? would he also have been able to see Madeleine. I'd like to see that tested.
I'd like to see Jez and Gerry not notice Jane walking past in her flip flops.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: The Singularity on March 14, 2017, 11:45:26 AM
I'd like to see Jez and Gerry not notice Jane walking past in her flip flops.
I have to admit this has always concerned me, that neither of the gentlemen noticed Ms Tanner walking by. And in one video I have seen Ms Tanner is talking to Mr McCann in the street and they disagree as to where he was standing. Most curious
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 14, 2017, 01:30:48 PM
I have to admit this has always concerned me, that neither of the gentlemen noticed Ms Tanner walking by. And in one video I have seen Ms Tanner is talking to Mr McCann in the street and they disagree as to where he was standing. Most curious
Indeed most curious, among other most curious incidents which seemed to be on the menu that night! It reads like a spoof murder mystery made for TV on a very low budget.
Re the calpol, I don't believe the parents poisend their daughter, however Calpol contains paracetamol and an over dose of that can kill.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 14, 2017, 02:14:00 PM
Indeed most curious, among other most curious incidents which seemed to be on the menu that night! It reads like a spoof murder mystery made for TV on a very low budget.
Re the calpol, I don't believe the parents poisend their daughter, however Calpol contains paracetamol and an over dose of that can kill.
A small child could drink a whole bottle of Calpol and it would not kill them. I trust you are not claiming this is what happened to Madeleine?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 14, 2017, 02:37:46 PM
A small child could drink a whole bottle of Calpol and it would not kill them. I trust you are not claiming this is what happened to Madeleine?
Do you have problem reading posts? Please quote the part where I claim this is what happened. I was stating a point of fact regarding a medicine. I did not mention Maddie and calpol in the same sentence, so pull it back!
Do you think Maddie drank a whole bottle and died- oh my another thesis just popped up.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on March 14, 2017, 03:02:56 PM
Do you have problem reading posts? Please quote the part where I claim this is what happened. I was stating a point of fact regarding a medicine. I did not mention Maddie and calpol in the same sentence, so pull it back!
Do you think Maddie drank a whole bottle and died- oh my another thesis just popped up.
I think it must be you with the problem re: reading posts - I didn't say that you said it, I said I trust you are NOT saying it, thanks for confirming that you are not, though why you felt the need to point this out in a Madeleine McCann forum I'm not really sure. Furthermore I categorically claimed that a small child can drink a whole bottle of Calpol and NOT die, so where did you get the idea that I thought Madeleine died after drinking a whole bottle of Calpol?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 14, 2017, 03:50:01 PM
I have to admit this has always concerned me, that neither of the gentlemen noticed Ms Tanner walking by. And in one video I have seen Ms Tanner is talking to Mr McCann in the street and they disagree as to where he was standing. Most curious
That is in the Emma Loach documentary we were discussing recently. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7981.0
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2017, 03:27:49 AM
From the early days of Madeleine McCann's disappearance Goncalo Amaral has insisted there was huge political involvement in the case ranging from MI5 to the Holy Father.
It is widely believed.
The Deputy Director of the Judiciary Police, Pedro do Carmo states categorically that it is not true.
Maddie Case: Ten Years Later, PJ Denies Political Pressures On the eve of the tenth anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, the Judiciary Police Directorate denies that there have been political pressures from London and Lisbon in the course of the investigation. LUSA April 29, 2017, 12:49 https://www.publico.pt/2017/04/29/sociedade/noticia/caso-maddie-dez-anos-depois-pj-nega-pressoes-politicas-1770459
In 2011 John Blacksmith posted
Snip And these comments have been amplified elsewhere.You know what a good friend of Portugal I have been.
You knew perfectly well that the majority of the Portuguese information I posted from beginning to end was provided by Goncalo Amaral and yourself, with subsidiary input and documentation from others, including members of the PJ, officer De Freitas and lawyers associated with the case, for example.
Furthermore I remind you that before publication of recent posts I repeatedly asked for the evidence from GA of political interference by the UK, none of which he was able to provide.
At no time has anyone on those two sites made any attempt to point out to the more hysterical of your posters, even tactfully and anonymously, the true origin of much of my information.
Political interference? Mibbes aye mibbes naw but definitely evidence perhaps of "fake news" before the majority of us knew such a thing even existed.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on May 01, 2017, 10:15:38 AM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 01, 2017, 10:18:22 AM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
There is propaganda on both sides, as you well know Alfie.
Prime example, the interview with Fiona Bruce.
Also, perhaps you can remind me, does the UK press support the McCann's or Amaral ?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2017, 10:19:30 AM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
dont you like other people having a opinion diffrent to you? you should be pleased your daughter can think for herself
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2017, 10:28:26 AM
dont you like other people having a opinion diffrent to you? you should be pleased your daughter can think for herself
Why should I pleased that my daughter has chosen to believe myths about this case, and when Intry and explain why these are myths she isn't interested? Explain why that is a good thing that I should be pleased about?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 01, 2017, 10:43:35 AM
My daughter watched that interview and it made not a jot of difference to her view. It seems she prefers fake news and myths, which is a shame IMO.
Out of interest who would you have her believe? there are only two things certain in the whole affair,Madeleine was reported missing on 3/05/2007 to this date her fate remains unknown.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on May 01, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Out of interest who would you have her believe? there are only two things certain in the whole affair,Madeleine was reported missing on 3/05/2007 to this date her fate remains unknown.
I would have her give the parents the benefit of the doubt, seeing as how she is (by her own admission) largely ignorant of the details of this case and really doesn't know what she is talking about. But in this day and age we all have to have an opinion on a subject, no matter how little we know of the matter. Fortunately my daughter has no interest whatsoever in trying to convince others that her opinion on the McCanns should be listened to, nor spends any time whatsoever tweeting or posting about her doubts, so no harm done really.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: barrier on May 01, 2017, 12:01:37 PM
I would have her give the parents the benefit of the doubt, seeing as how she is (by her own admission) largely ignorant of the details of this case and really doesn't know what she is talking about. But in this day and age we all have to have an opinion on a subject, no matter how little we know of the matter. Fortunately my daughter has no interest whatsoever in trying to convince others that her opinion on the McCanns should be listened to, nor spends any time whatsoever tweeting or posting about her doubts, so no harm done really.
Thanks.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 01, 2017, 12:28:12 PM
I think it must be you with the problem re: reading posts - I didn't say that you said it, I said I trust you are NOT saying it, thanks for confirming that you are not, though why you felt the need to point this out in a Madeleine McCann forum I'm not really sure. Furthermore I categorically claimed that a small child can drink a whole bottle of Calpol and NOT die, so where did you get the idea that I thought Madeleine died after drinking a whole bottle of Calpol?
Why do you Trust I didn't say something I actually didn't say? utter nonsense of a post! Having Already said I do not believe Maddie was drugged (This is a belief as I have no evidence either way) by her parents to kill her, neither did I suggest Maddie drank a bottle and it killed her, so you can stop creating monsters from people who do not believe in the abduction story.
I mentioned the paracetamol is dangerous in large doses because people have died from overdose and sometimes that is accidentally. This was in relation to posts asking can calpol be used as a sedative-make you sleep, well given enough it can make you sleep permanently.
Perhaps really stupid people added 2+2 and got 25
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 01, 2017, 12:36:04 PM
I would have her give the parents the benefit of the doubt, seeing as how she is (by her own admission) largely ignorant of the details of this case and really doesn't know what she is talking about. But in this day and age we all have to have an opinion on a subject, no matter how little we know of the matter. Fortunately my daughter has no interest whatsoever in trying to convince others that her opinion on the McCanns should be listened to, nor spends any time whatsoever tweeting or posting about her doubts, so no harm done really.
She seem young and misguided, maybe in that rebelling phase lol.
I don't agree that children should give their parents the benefit of the doubt in all things ( Nazi Germany an example). However, if you explained that you believe the parents version of account and add the evidence/ proof for your argument it should bring her round. Or if you have no evidence you can explain the word believe to her a in believing in God with no evidence.
BTW if she is a teen good luck with that lol I have no issue with people who believe in an abduction, I have issues with supporting trolls.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on May 01, 2017, 01:02:29 PM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
A deeply depressing post to read.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on May 01, 2017, 01:05:03 PM
Opinions can be, and sadly all to frequently are, deeply damaging and divisive.
Expression of such opinion is deplorable.
Yes, even worse offering an opinion that leaving 3 babies under 4 alone and one of them disappears is a bad thing for parents to do. IS dividing this forum membership. 8)-)))
The pitts... and should not be allowed... oh it is getting a bit like that on this forum. Any criticism of the Tapas is deemed as trolling...
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: jassi on May 01, 2017, 02:31:37 PM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
Ive had the same experience with a couple of girls at work...and the same reasons given.....show her the picture of cipriano
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
It turns out my 18 year old daughter is convinced the parents dunnit. When pressed why she thinks this she says she read some things on the internet about the 100% match to Madeleine's DNA in the hire car and that the parents had drugged the kids. Fake news is all pervasive and extremely effective at implanting ideas which have no basis in fact and which are incredibly difficult to shake. When I tried reasoning with daughter and pointed out the evidence was flawed or non existent she was not remotely interested, she just said 'I know what I read and I don't care what you say, I think they are guilty'. We've got Goncalo and his entire online fan base thank for that - well done to them for their hugely successful propaganda campaign, it's certainly been extremely effective.
Such a pain the internet, isn't it? Without it the whole of the UK would be supporting the McCanns because the UK media do. Or would it? The two most damaging things in my opinion are the McCann's idea of what responsible parenting consists of and their demeanour during their media interviews.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on May 01, 2017, 02:53:59 PM
Such a pain the internet, isn't it? Without it the whole of the UK would be supporting the McCanns because the UK media do. Or would it? The two most damaging things in my opinion are the McCann's idea of what responsible parenting consists of and their demeanour during their media interviews.
So you don't believe in the power of internet propaganda, malicious myth-spreading and fake news? In your opinion the ones most to blame for making people think they dunnit is the victims themselves. Well there's a surprise.... @)(++(* Funny isn't it that my daughter didn't cite either of those "most damaging" things as her reasons for thinking the parents dunnit it...?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: ferryman on May 01, 2017, 04:08:50 PM
So you don't believe in the power of internet propaganda, malicious myth-spreading and fake news? In your opinion the ones most to blame for making people think they dunnit is the victims themselves. Well there's a surprise.... @)(++(* Funny isn't it that my daughter didn't cite either of those "most damaging" things as her reasons for thinking the parents dunnit it...?
What is your daughter's rationale, Alfie?
Sorry. Just re-read your post.
All the hype around the time they were declared arguidos stuck.
Still more depressing.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 01, 2017, 04:40:43 PM
All the hype around the time they were declared arguidos stuck.
Still more depressing.
IMO people think they're being rather clever when they say they think the parents dunnit. They want to look as if they've got special wisdom about and insight into things that mere mortals / sheeple like us simply aren't clever enough to have spotted or intuited. I think this somewhat insecure need to appear really clever and insightful by challenging the accepted view drives most conspiracy theories - from the holocaust, to 9/11 to Sandy Hook to Madeleine McCann. Also, mysterious conspiracies and cover-ups are always rather delicious to contemplate and indulge in, a lot more so than the banal truth of the matter, especially if the conspiracy indulged in involves the 'High-Ups' (which in most conspiracies it does, this one being no exception). My daughter is only 18, so quite immature, when she's grown up I hope she will realise that her beliefs about this case (such as the parents used a hire car to transport Madeleine's corpse) are really rather silly.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: G-Unit on May 01, 2017, 08:23:33 PM
So you don't believe in the power of internet propaganda, malicious myth-spreading and fake news? In your opinion the ones most to blame for making people think they dunnit is the victims themselves. Well there's a surprise.... @)(++(* Funny isn't it that my daughter didn't cite either of those "most damaging" things as her reasons for thinking the parents dunnit it...?
You have quoted one person's reaction. Those I have mentioned the case to have mentioned the child neglect or the impression the parents have made in interviews. Your one person versus about 6 of my people. I speak from my own experience, as do you.
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Alfie on May 01, 2017, 10:00:14 PM
You have quoted one person's reaction. Those I have mentioned the case to have mentioned the child neglect or the impression the parents have made in interviews. Your one person versus about 6 of my people. I speak from my own experience, as do you.
Oh, it's become a game of Top Trumps now has it? So of the 6 of "your" people how many think that because the McCanns left their kids unattended that this is evidence that the parents hid their child's body, and what is the causal link between the two, in their opinion? And is it a fact that your 6 people have based their beliefs purely on watching TV interviews and reading newspapers and have never once read a single myth or rumour about the case as promulgated by the AntiMcCann pressure group on the internet?
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2017, 10:32:53 PM
You have quoted one person's reaction. Those I have mentioned the case to have mentioned the child neglect or the impression the parents have made in interviews. Your one person versus about 6 of my people. I speak from my own experience, as do you.
strange my experience was exactly the same as alf....a mention of a dna match
Title: Re: One enduring myth.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 01, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
You have quoted one person's reaction. Those I have mentioned the case to have mentioned the child neglect or the impression the parents have made in interviews. Your one person versus about 6 of my people. I speak from my own experience, as do you.
Funnily enough those are the exact reasons people give to me G. Also some cannot understand their celebrity status... they only gave an interview in 'Hello' Magazine ...