UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on April 13, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
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Samson intended to start up the above but seems to have disappeared so hopefully he will not mind if I steal his thunder!
The following are excerpts from CAL's book and all fully referenced:
Police
The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.
Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.
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Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, her returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
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Pathologist - Dr Peter Vanezis
However, pathologist Peter Vanezis is of the opinion that the twins may have been the first to die.
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Author - Carol Ann Lee
Climbing the stairs, he steeled himself to kill the greatest threats first: his parents. A thin film of moonlight glimmered through the curtains in the master bedroom, where his parents lay sleeping. He stood in the doorway, lifted the rifle, and fired.
The first two shots pierced the right side of June's chest, embedding themselves in the pillow. Another shot hit her in the arm and a third travelled up inside her leg, lodging in her knee. The terrible impact woke Nevill, who lurched out of bed. Jeremy turned the gun on his father, firing four shots that caught him on his left side: two bullets penetrated his forearm and shoulder, and two tore into his lip and jaw.
Jeremy left the room, heading down the first flight of stairs and through the corridor to the twins' bedroom, firing one shot into each slumbering child. With all ten cartridges expended, he made his way down to the kitchen to reload.
He managed to slot four cartridges into the magazine before his father stumbled into the room. A fierce fight for possession of the weapon ensued: they fell against the table, knocking it into the dresser and sending crockery to the floor. The rifle struck the overhead lampshade, shattering it. Jeremy used the gun to beat his father about the arms, head and face; Nevill's watch broke and skittered across the lino. The struggle came to a brutal end near the Aga, where the rifle damaged the underside of the mantel. As Nevill collapsed over a chair, landing at an impossible angle with his pyjamas tangling around his feet, Jeremy brought the gun down on his skull, then fired four shots into his head.
The last produced a stovepipe jam, trapping the empty cartridge case in the ejection port. Jeremy removed the magazine and loaded it to its full capacity, then inserted it into the magazine well. Climbing the stairs again, he cleared the jammed cartridge by working the bolt. It fell out, rolling towards the skirting board on the first landing.
While father and son were fighting in the kitchen, June had managed to force herself up from bed. The commotion had also woken Sheila, who crossed the landing to her parents' bedroom, drowsy and confused. At the sight of her mother bleeding profusely as she steadied herself on the edge of the bed, Sheila rushed to the other side of the room, where the door to the box room was the quickest route to the twins. June staggered round the bed after her, but before she could reach Sheila, Jeremy returned with the gun.
Sheila froze. June started towards her son, who fired three more shots into her neck, head and finally between the eyes. June hit her shoulder against the door as she slumped to the floor.
Jeremy then forced Sheila down beside the bed and shot her once in the throat. With six cartridges left in the rifle, he headed back down the corridor where he fired two further shots into Nicholas and four into Daniel, emptying the magazine. The element of 'overkill' would help his story that Sheila, in the grip of psychosis, was the guilty party.
He then retraced his footsteps to the master bedroom, intending to finish setting the scene. To his shock he found his sister incapacitated but still alive. Quickly, he returned to the kitchen, loading a single cartridge into the magazine. Upstairs once more, he crouched down and took aim. The bullet went into Sheila's brain, killing her instantly.
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Jeremy Bamber
The following is an excerpt from correspondence received from JB:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
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Jeremy Bamber
The following is an excerpt from correspondence received from JB:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
So Nevill was shot in the kitchen and the cases were planted in the bedroom after all... LOL!
I thought you didn't believe a word Jeremy Bamber said?
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When are you off to Kiwi land to give Samson a short, back and slap?
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Jeremy Bamber
The following is an excerpt from correspondence received from JB:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
DC Hammersley's trial testimony says otherwise...
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=197;image)
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199;image)
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Senior Scientific Officer - Malcolm Fletcher
Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher believes that Jeremy fired eight shots into his parents first, and that Nevill escaped to try and raise the alarm using the telephone downstairs, while Jeremy forced Sheila into the master bedroom, where he shot her once; after killing Nevill, her returned to fire the fatal shots at June, and another at Sheila before expending the remaining bullets on Nicholas and Daniel.
That is an interesting theory.
Bamber may have intially fired 8 bullets in the main bedroom. June was on the bed not moving & Nevill had fallen onto the floor.
Bamber felt he had done enough & went to get Sheila. Nevill saw his chance to get downstairs & arm himself or try to escape to the Flokes's. Bamber heard Nevill & followed him downstairs.
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I don't believe Nevill ran downstairs to phone the police. It was too late.
He either ran as it was the natural thing to do when someone is shooting you & downstairs was the only place to run to. Or he went downstairs to escape outside or arm himself while Bamber had gone into Sheila's room.
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If Bamber was trying to get the massacre compete without any reloads, then 7/8 bullets fired in the main bedroom would have meant 3 bullets were left for Sheila & the twins. Dependent on whether the rifle had 10 or 11 bullets inside.
However Nevill getting downstairs, June moving out of bed & Sheila still being alive after one shot meant a reload was needed. Once he reloads once he might as well do it twice to make sure everyone is dead & make it look like a crazy attack.
I suspect Bamber was attempting to get the massacre complete without reloading. As people would ask if Sheila could reload. However he was aware that there was a possibility this may not be achieved.
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So Nevill was shot in the kitchen and the cases were planted in the bedroom after all... LOL!
LOL indeed! NB was shot upstairs x 4 and in the kitchen x 4 as per the evidence: blood, casings and pathological. Evidence collected by DC Hammersley and photographed by DC Bird.
I thought you didn't believe a word Jeremy Bamber said?
I don't on the basis he has a poor understanding of his case. After the above I curtailed contact as it was clear he was unable to assist. I wrote to him requesting soc photos of the casings in the main bedroom and he responded as above.
The above seems to emante from Mike who has been an unmitigated disaster for JB. I will retrieve Mike's old posts later.
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When are you off to Kiwi land to give Samson a short, back and slap?
Samson has been very helpful in providing relevant info re Oz and NZ. We'll be off soon but can't bear to leave the "dafferdowndillies" in bloom! 8)-)))
Samson (and NNZ on your best behaviour) please return 8((()*/
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That is an interesting theory.
Bamber may have intially fired 8 bullets in the main bedroom. June was on the bed not moving & Nevill had fallen onto the floor.
Bamber felt he had done enough & went to get Sheila. Nevill saw his chance to get downstairs & arm himself or try to escape to the Flokes's. Bamber heard Nevill & followed him downstairs.
Hello Adam 8**8:/:
Yes very interesting! In the US such a shooting incidence yields indisuputable forensic evidence not theories! Do you have any info re Malcolm Fletcher's professional qualifications and experience in cases involving shootings?
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I don't believe Nevill ran downstairs to phone the police. It was too late.
He either ran as it was the natural thing to do when someone is shooting you & downstairs was the only place to run to. Or he went downstairs to escape outside or arm himself while Bamber had gone into Sheila's room.
The pathological evidence makes clear NB was incapable of purposeful speech after the gsw's to his lip and jaw which were clearly sustained upstairs so no tel calls having been shot upstairs.
I guess if one is being shot at it's instinctive to move away from gunfire. Imo NB fled downstairs with the perp behind, but why not exit the main door (at bottom of main stairs)? Instead NB fled to kitchen. Maybe an attempt to resume tel contact with JB hence bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop?
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If Bamber was trying to get the massacre compete without any reloads, then 7/8 bullets fired in the main bedroom would have meant 3 bullets were left for Sheila & the twins. Dependent on whether the rifle had 10 or 11 bullets inside.
However Nevill getting downstairs, June moving out of bed & Sheila still being alive after one shot meant a reload was needed. Once he reloads once he might as well do it twice to make sure everyone is dead & make it look like a crazy attack.
I suspect Bamber was attempting to get the massacre complete without reloading. As people would ask if Sheila could reload. However he was aware that there was a possibility this may not be achieved.
SC suffered a mental illness. There's no evidence she suffered any learning disability. Loading a mag, attaching it to a rifle and chambering a round is not rocket science. Easy as replacing a battery in a tv remote and changing channels or emptying a hoover bin etc. To suggest otherwise is imo sexist nonsense. Had SC been a same sex sibling who had hitherto shown no 'interest' in guns I doubt anyone would question her ability to carry out the "massacre".
The main players at the 1986 trial were born in the 30's and 40's and may well have held sterotypical views about women being all sweetness and light!
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LOL indeed! NB was shot upstairs x 4 and in the kitchen x 4 as per the evidence: blood, casings and pathological. Evidence collected by DC Hammersley and photographed by DC Bird.
I don't on the basis he has a poor understanding of his case. After the above I curtailed contact as it was clear he was unable to assist. I wrote to him requesting soc photos of the casings in the main bedroom and he responded as above.
The above seems to emante from Mike who has been an unmitigated disaster for JB. I will retrieve Mike's old posts later.
Here's one of many posts from Mike asserting cases were moved from the kitchen to the bedroom to "accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy":
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877
No, actually Mike the cases in the main bedroom support JB's innocence. The fact you've been looking at this for some 25/30 years and have been unable to figure it out just proves you're the ultimate Northern Numpty. Moron.
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Hello Adam 8**8:/:
Yes very interesting! In the US such a shooting incidence yields indisuputable forensic evidence not theories! Do you have any info re Malcolm Fletcher's professional qualifications and experience in cases involving shootings?
I know nothing about Malcolm Fletcher.
However people have asked how Nevill was supposed to have got past Bamber in the bedroom. In my view Bamber would have retreated as Nevill was a big man. However it could also be that Bamber had gone to get Sheila leaving Nevill with a chance to go downstairs.
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The pathological evidence makes clear NB was incapable of purposeful speech after the gsw's to his lip and jaw which were clearly sustained upstairs so no tel calls having been shot upstairs.
I guess if one is being shot at it's instinctive to move away from gunfire. Imo NB fled downstairs with the perp behind, but why not exit the main door (at bottom of main stairs)? Instead NB fled to kitchen. Maybe an attempt to resume tel contact with JB hence bloody fingerprints on the kitchen worktop?
That is a good point. Although at the time Nevill would not realise he would not be able to speak. But able to speak or not, it was too late for phone calls.
What was in the kitchen ? An exit I assume. Where was the gun cupboard in relation to the kitchen. The kitchen would obviously include things such as knives which could be used by Nevill.
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SC suffered a mental illness. There's no evidence she suffered any learning disability. Loading a mag, attaching it to a rifle and chambering a round is not rocket science. Easy as replacing a battery in a tv remote and changing channels or emptying a hoover bin etc. To suggest otherwise is imo sexist nonsense. Had SC been a same sex sibling who had hitherto shown no 'interest' in guns I doubt anyone would question her ability to carry out the "massacre".
The main players at the 1986 trial were born in the 30's and 40's and may well have held sterotypical views about women being all sweetness and light!
I don't know how to breach, chamber & load a rifle. Then again I've never (perhsps) been on a shooting party 10 years ago.
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I know nothing about Malcolm Fletcher.
However people have asked how Nevill was supposed to have got past Bamber in the bedroom. In my view Bamber would have retreated as Nevill was a big man. However it could also be that Bamber had gone to get Sheila leaving Nevill with a chance to go downstairs.
If JB retreated how did NB sustain the gsw's to the back of his shoulder and elbow/chest which were clearly sustained upstairs based on casings?
I don't think JB would allow NB out of his sight. As you said it may not have been immediately apparent NB was incapable of purposeful speech and therefore JB would fear NB using the tel or fleeing WHF to raise the alarm.
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That is a good point. Although at the time Nevill would not realise he would not be able to speak. But able to speak or not, it was too late for phone calls.
What was in the kitchen ? An exit I assume. Where was the gun cupboard in relation to the kitchen. The kitchen would obviously include things such as knives which could be used by Nevill.
Too late for tel calls based on pathological evidence.
I assume all sorts of sharp implements in the kitchen. En route to back door and gun cupboard.
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I don't know how to breach, chamber & load a rifle. Then again I've never (perhsps) been on a shooting party 10 years ago.
But anyone growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that used them would soon pick it up by observation unless they had learning difficulties and there's no evidence SC wasn't at least of average intelligence.
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But anyone growing up on a farm surrounded by firearms and those that used them would soon pick it up by observation unless they had learning difficulties and there's no evidence SC wasn't at least of average intelligence.
I don't agree with that. Bamber testified Sheila had 'limited' knowledge of guns. Probably 'limited' because he couldn't say 'no'.
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If Bamber was trying to get the massacre compete without any reloads, then 7/8 bullets fired in the main bedroom would have meant 3 bullets were left for Sheila & the twins. Dependent on whether the rifle had 10 or 11 bullets inside.
However Nevill getting downstairs, June moving out of bed & Sheila still being alive after one shot meant a reload was needed. Once he reloads once he might as well do it twice to make sure everyone is dead & make it look like a crazy attack.
I suspect Bamber was attempting to get the massacre complete without reloading. As people would ask if Sheila could reload. However he was aware that there was a possibility this may not be achieved.
I guess by the time he has spent the first 5 bullets on mum, he gets his brain into gear and says woops, better start on the others. 8(0(*
Just thinking aloud here, do you think it might have been a tidier scene if he had shot dad first??
If the answer is yes, why did he shoot mum first.
If the answer is no, please show your working.
Thank you.
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Samson intended to start up the above but seems to have disappeared so hopefully he will not mind if I steal his thunder!
The following are excerpts from CAL's book and all fully referenced:
Police
The official police account of how Jeremy Bamber killed his family is contained in the report to the Director of Public Prosecutions in November 1985, written with a view to having him committed for trial.
Acknowledging that the order of death could not be determined with certainty, the report contends that:
...there were probably ten shots fired in the first fusillade [four into Nevill, one into Sheila and five into June] and the remaining three - two into June's head, one into Sheila's head- were inflicted after Ralph Nevill was killed in the kitchen. Eight shots were fired into the boys - eight cases were recovered in their bedroom. Four shots were fired into Ralph Nevill in the kitchen - namely, the two in his temple area and the two in the top of his head. Three cartridge cases were recovered in the kitchen. It is therefore reasonable to assume that the fourth cartridge case was carried on the feet of the killer, or possibly a police officer, and deposited on the stairway.
Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.
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Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.
I gave you the link to my how Bamber committed the massacre thread. Twice. But you did not comment on it.
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I don't agree with that. Bamber testified Sheila had 'limited' knowledge of guns. Probably 'limited' because he couldn't say 'no'.
JB would need to expand on "limited".
It did form part of the prosecution case against JB unlike much that is discussed on the forums:
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
Jurors were allowed to handle the rifle and magazine and I think load bullets, dummies I assume.
Personally I think its a perception thing in the UK. Most don't have access to firearms so its seen as alien and certainly not something a city dwelling attractive slim woman would ever handle! Case related debates from the US have a different take on this aspect of the case.
Surely it would be possible to take a bunch of novices allow them to observe an experienced handler load the mag, attach it and chamber a round to see how many times on average they need to observe before the task could be successfully completed. If most were able to master the task after observing a couple of times then I think we could safely assume it was straightforward.
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Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.
You're welcome.
It does seem to be an aspect of the case hitherto overlooked. At trial the so-called ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher is asked about some of the casings but not others - asked in terms of location and what it might mean. DC Hammersley, SOC Officer, is asked about every casing he seized aided by SOC photos but he obviously wasn't qualified to comment further. Ed Lawson QC for the defence asked MF if anyone was shot outside the bedroom - he answered No! See attached below.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html
All the evidence points to NB being shot on the landing and stairs but as puglove has pointed out it doesn't conclusively make JB innocent. It could be argued NB heard noises and went to investigate. Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom from the box room and then shoots NB on the landing/stairs? It doesn't sound as plausible as SC imo but it is possible?
I haven't seen David's images. Are they based on NB's facial gsw's sustained on the landing stairs facing the master bedroom or coming up the stairs? If the latter I can't really see how this would work. SC was 5'7.5" and NB 6'4". The difference in height is about the height of an average stair. The length of the rifle is 43" which would need to be between perp and NB putting NB about 4 or 5 stairs away and making the trajectories greater than 20 degrees below the horizontal. This assumes the perp held the rifle around the shoulder. The trajectory might work if held at waist level but then I would question whether the casings would pass over the handrail. It might mean they would need to pass through the spindles - would 4/4 pass through the spindles? I can't see how any of this can be advanced without scaled drawings of WHF and some sort of digitial image of the autopsy photos and JB to ascertain dimensions along with firing dummy bullets inside WHF to check the location of casings.
The only exception to the above might be if the perp was stood on one of the winder stairs as the depth might take care of the length of the rifle and fit with the trajectories but again I can't see how the casings would end up just inside the bedroom door?
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Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.
The Eatons and Boutflours wouldn't give a flying fcuk what you think!
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The Eatons and Boutflours wouldn't give a flying fcuk what you think!
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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The Eatons and Boutflours wouldn't give a flying fcuk what you think!
Possibly for now, but does this continue to be the case when JB is released?
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I know nothing about Malcolm Fletcher.
However people have asked how Nevill was supposed to have got past Bamber in the bedroom. In my view Bamber would have retreated as Nevill was a big man. However it could also be that Bamber had gone to get Sheila leaving Nevill with a chance to go downstairs.
Bamber retreated because he discovered that shooting adult humans is slightly different to shooting rats and rabbits. He simply ran out of ammo.
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If JB retreated how did NB sustain the gsw's to the back of his shoulder and elbow/chest which were clearly sustained upstairs based on casings?
I don't think JB would allow NB out of his sight. As you said it may not have been immediately apparent NB was incapable of purposeful speech and therefore JB would fear NB using the tel or fleeing WHF to raise the alarm.
Easy. If someone started shooting at you, would you turn your back to them to protect your face?
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I don't agree with that. Bamber testified Sheila had 'limited' knowledge of guns. Probably 'limited' because he couldn't say 'no'.
Quite right and she detested guns so much that she wouldn't allow the twins to have toy guns to play with, how ironic.
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Thanks for starting the thread Holly. In my opinion it should be by default the master thread. Until one of your guilters can explain exactly what happened, and this will be a scenario that operates on a higher plane than the EP/CAL nexus, the Eatons and Boutflours should be on notice to pack up and leave town.
It has been explained many times already how Jeremy Bamber executed his family so no point going over it all again. By the way, did you know he had an accomplice before the fact who walked away scot-free?
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It has been explained many times already how Jeremy Bamber executed his family so no point going over it all again. By the way, did you know he had an accomplice before the fact who walked away scot-free?
With respect John, I have read your reconstruction that seems to require the introduction of a stupifying agent to manage Sheila's delivery to a better world.
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With respect John, I have read your reconstruction that seems to require the introduction of a stupifying agent to manage Sheila's delivery to a better world.
At LAST he's got it!! By George, he's got it!!! Sheila HAD the benefit? of a stupefying agent -HALOPERIDOL, no less- which assisted Jeremy's dispatching of her to a better world
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At LAST he's got it!! By George, he's got it!!! Sheila HAD the benefit? of a stupefying agent -HALOPERIDOL, no less- which assisted Jeremy's dispatching of her to a better world
Well APRIL this is at least progressing the discussion.
John suggests there is an unknown substance Jeremy Bamber administered to Sheila before he killed her.
This is not HALOPERIDOL
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Well APRIL this is at least progressing the discussion.
John suggests there is an unknown substance Jeremy Bamber administered to Sheila before he killed her.
This is not HALOPERIDOL
Samson, John isn't stupid! Of COURSE "an unknown substance" wasn't Haloperidol. From where would Jeremy have purchased Haloperidol? I can think of a couple of substances which COULD have been administered and MAY have been found on the farm. One being carbon tetrachloride the other being ammonia, both used for cleaning purposes and both requiring only the tiniest amount to cause a few seconds loss of consciousness.
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Possibly for now, but does this continue to be the case when JB is released?
The CCRC wield considerable investigatory power. They exercised such when they ordered WHF to be opened up to seek DNA evidence from bloodstained floorboards in the late 90's/early noughties for JB's 2002 appeal (on the basis all other exhibits had been destroyed). AE and family may be required to once again open up WHF to aid a reconstruction eg laser measuring devices.
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Easy. If someone started shooting at you, would you turn your back to them to protect your face?
I think the instinctive thing would be to turn away from gunfire but I can't see how this was possible for NB if he was in bed.
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Quite right and she detested guns so much that she wouldn't allow the twins to have toy guns to play with, how ironic.
And yet AE observed a toy gun in the lounge at WHF on 9th Aug 1985:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3098
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The CCRC wield considerable investigatory power. They exercised such when they ordered WHF to be opened up to seek DNA evidence from bloodstained floorboards in the late 90's/early noughties for JB's 2002 appeal (on the basis all other exhibits had been destroyed). AE and family may be required to once again open up WHF to aid a reconstruction eg laser measuring devices.
*SPOILER ALERT*
If I were them I'd redecorate the stairwell with some bouncy foam-backed wallpaper so any experimental casings would rebound to some other place than your beloved DRH13 and 14.
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And yet AE observed a toy gun in the lounge at WHF on 9th Aug 1985:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3098 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3098)
A present from Fotherington-Thomas, to introduce them to sharp-shooting?
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At LAST he's got it!! By George, he's got it!!! Sheila HAD the benefit? of a stupefying agent -HALOPERIDOL, no less- which assisted Jeremy's dispatching of her to a better world
I think many have suggested SC was forced to ingest a substance to stupify her but toxiciology tests show this was not the case. In fact Dr Vanezis held off compiling his autopsy report for toxicology test results as he thought had JB been guilty, as mooted, it would require a stupefied SC to comply with the soc.
Toxicology test results showed a mere trace of cannabis and 15ng of Haloperidol per 1 mg of blood. The latter put SC in the low range of a moderate dose of Haloperidol so no stupefying.
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*SPOILER ALERT*
If I were them I'd redecorate the stairwell with some bouncy foam-backed wallpaper so any experimental casings would rebound to some other place than your beloved DRH13 and 14.
Lol I was thinking similar @)(++(*
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I think the instinctive thing would be to turn away from gunfire but I can't see how this was possible for NB if he was in bed.
For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.
For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.
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For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.
For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.
And if anyone could make a phone call after those injuries they're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
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For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.
For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.
NB was 6' 4". A standard double bed is 6'3" long and a queen and king 6'6" long. I think we can assume the bed in the master bedroom at WHF was queen or king. The rifle was 43" long and silencer 7" long. According to Malcolm Fletcher the gsw's inflicted to NB's lip and jaw were fired "when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin". This would mean the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the facial shots. I don't see how NB was then able to swing around and expose his shoulder and elbow/chest in order to sustain the gsw's to these areas of his body. It would also mean the perp would need to relocate further away from the bed since these gsw's were inflicted when the rifle "was at least two feet from the body".
It is unclear whether June sustained 5 or 6 gsw's whilst in bed and getting out of. Even if we assume 5 only 8 casings were found either on the bed or to June's side of the bed. If NB was shot 4 x's whilst in bed and getting out of where is the missing 9th casing: 5 x June and 4 x NB?
Taking into consideration blood staining from June and SC's gsw's is it realistic to think NB's gsw's didn't produce any evidence of blood until he arrived on the stairs? Especially when the pathologist referred to the facial wounds as sites with a rich blood supply? Why ddidn't defence counsel ask the question...'could NB have sustained these wounds in the bedroom and left without a trace of blood until arriving on the stairs'? See attached.
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Samson, John isn't stupid! Of COURSE "an unknown substance" wasn't Haloperidol. From where would Jeremy have purchased Haloperidol? I can think of a couple of substances which COULD have been administered and MAY have been found on the farm. One being carbon tetrachloride the other being ammonia, both used for cleaning purposes and both requiring only the tiniest amount to cause a few seconds loss of consciousness.
Indeed April, there were literally dozens of household chemicals freely available on the market back in 1985 which were capable of knocking someone out almost instantly.
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With respect John, I have read your reconstruction that seems to require the introduction of a stupifying agent to manage Sheila's delivery to a better world.
Everyone who has looked at the original photos agrees that Sheila did not have a look of fear or shock on her face which could only have meant one thing. Jeremy Bamber knew very well that with three adults in the house as well as the twins that he had to overpower Sheila early on if his planned murder/suicide was to succeed. His plan therefore required that he take Sheila out first by rendering her unconscious and then launch a full frontal assault on the master bedroom by blasting both his parents in the head. To his surprise it failed and he had to retreat in order to get more ammunition allowing Nevill time to regain his composure and follow him down the stairs followed by the fight for the rifle over the kitchen table.
This is the only possible scenario which fits with the facts.
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The CCRC wield considerable investigatory power. They exercised such when they ordered WHF to be opened up to seek DNA evidence from bloodstained floorboards in the late 90's/early noughties for JB's 2002 appeal (on the basis all other exhibits had been destroyed). AE and family may be required to once again open up WHF to aid a reconstruction eg laser measuring devices.
I doubt it very much Holly. This case is dead and buried as far as the CCRC is concerned.
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I think the instinctive thing would be to turn away from gunfire but I can't see how this was possible for NB if he was in bed.
I don't believe he was shot in bed but on his feet facing Bamber just inside the main bedroom door. It is a natural instinct to put ones arms up and turn if confronted by a gunman.
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I think many have suggested SC was forced to ingest a substance to stupify her but toxiciology tests show this was not the case. In fact Dr Vanezis held off compiling his autopsy report for toxicology test results as he thought had JB been guilty, as mooted, it would require a stupefied SC to comply with the soc.
Toxicology test results showed a mere trace of cannabis and 15ng of Haloperidol per 1 mg of blood. The latter put SC in the low range of a moderate dose of Haloperidol so no stupefying.
I agree thus why something akin to ammonia or methane was used, is undetectable after the event and leaves no traces.
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Indeed April, there were literally dozens of household chemicals freely available on the market back in 1985 which were capable of knocking someone out almost instantly.
And would have been undetectable. Any material used to apply it could have gone in the Aga and just to keep Samson happy, the applicator found downstairs was minus it's tampon which COULD have been used to administer any chemical used?
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I agree thus why something akin to ammonia or methane was used, is undetectable after the event and leaves no traces.
Wouldn't ammonia leave burn marks on the skin around her mouth and nose and be detectable by police or Vanezis?
Methane is a gas, disperses instantly and needs the guile of a Crippen to administer.
Unless chloroform was readily available in '85, I don't think he would have the nous to make it from household bleach and nail-varnish remover (acetone), and we didn't have the luxury of YouTube then to demonstrate how either.
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Wouldn't ammonia leave burn marks on the skin around her mouth and nose and be detectable by police or Vanezis?
Methane is a gas, disperses instantly and needs the guile of a Crippen to administer.
Unless chloroform was readily available in '85, I don't think he would have the nous to make it from household bleach and nail-varnish remover (acetone), and we didn't have the luxury of YouTube then to demonstrate how either.
Any noxious substance used in concentration form will leave burn marks if applied directly but it would have taken very little odour to have knocked Sheila out. Have you ever used oven cleaner? A very short whiff of that stuff will instantly take your breath away so its not a good idea to stick ones head in an oven after applying oven cleaner.
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I don't believe he was shot in bed but on his feet facing Bamber just inside the main bedroom door. It is a natural instinct to put ones arms up and turn if confronted by a gunman.
But the 2 facial shots are difficult to reconcile with the trajectories if NB and JB were stood at the same level.
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Any noxious substance used in concentration form will leave burn marks if applied directly but it would have taken very little odour to have knocked Sheila out. Have you ever used oven cleaner? A very short whiff of that stuff will instantly take your breath away so its not a good idea to stick ones head in an oven after applying oven cleaner.
Yep, I've done that too... luckily the gas was also turned off at the same time!
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Wouldn't ammonia leave burn marks on the skin around her mouth and nose and be detectable by police or Vanezis?
Methane is a gas, disperses instantly and needs the guile of a Crippen to administer.
Unless chloroform was readily available in '85, I don't think he would have the nous to make it from household bleach and nail-varnish remover (acetone), and we didn't have the luxury of YouTube then to demonstrate how either.
Not necessarily, Myster. If it's inhaled in a closed environment it will be enough to certainly knock one off balance. I've had my own experience with industrial strength ammonia!!!! and rescued a youngster who was using carbon tet in a closed bathroom having been warned of the dangers. She actually passed out. Both of these substances COULD have been used on the farm.
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For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.
For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.
Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered? Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom. NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:
Landing and Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible. Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2). He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout. My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom.
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Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered? Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom. NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:
Landing and Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible. Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2). He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout. My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom.
So Nevill can't have phoned anyone, because he didn't know if it was Sheila or an intruder who had hold of a weapon and he only saw his son, the perp, when it was too late and wounded.
Congrats... when are we going to celebrate you seeing the light!
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Wouldn't it just be easier to go with puglove's theory that NB was outside the bedroom before JB entered? Most other guilters: Clive (I think), MikeG, Scipio and yourself have suggested NB was in various positions to account for the trajectories and seem happy to dismiss the lack of blood and location of casings doesn't fit with NB shot in the bedroom. NB shot on the landing and main stairs, or even all 4 on the main stairs, does also have a guilty scenario:
Landing and Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedrom and is situated on the landing where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
Main Stairs
JB enters twins room and shoots them at least once.
NB hears a noise and leaves the master bedroom to investigate he gets as far as the bottom of the main stairs
Meanwhile JB enters the master bedroom via box room and upon finding NB missing shoots June x 5
NB runs back towards the master bedroom and is situated at the top of the main stairs where he sustains the facial shots then turns and sustains the shoulder and elbow/chest graze on the main stairs
It may not sound as plausible as SC but it is possible. Interestingly Dr Vanezis thought the twins may have been shot first (post #2). He was the only expert to enter WHF so had some knowledge of the layout. My guess he has had time to think about the trajectories and lack of NB's blood in the bedroom.
Well, you got there in the end, Holl. I always had complete faith that you would!! 8@??)(
I think I just heard clappedout's poor old heart break. 8)><(
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So Nevill can't have phoned anyone, because he didn't know if it was Sheila or an intruder who had hold of a weapon and he only saw his son, the perp, when it was too late and wounded.
Congrats... when are we going to celebrate you seeing the light!
Obviously the guilty JB scenarios I've outlined above don't require a tel call.
The innocent JB scenario, with NB and SC downstairs, allows for a tel call.
If experts reconstruct a soc based on NB and SC downstairs the only way to defend is as puglove and I have suggested ie NB already out of the bedroom. And there was me thinking guys had better spacial awareness skills &%+((£
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Well, you got there in the end, Holl. I always had complete faith that you would!! 8@??)(
I think I just heard clappedout's poor old heart break. 8)><(
Lol I'm just being realistic! NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.
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Lol I'm just being realistic! NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.
I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.
Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.
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I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.
Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.
And how come Roch is suddenly some sort of Bamber virgin? He was a mod, 4 years ago.
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For the first two mouth/jaw shots, Nevill was lying prone in bed with head raised and facing the shooter who was obviously in a higher position at the foot end. No blood on the bed clothes as it was too early to start flowing enough, when he realised what was happening and had to get up sharpish.
For the other two shots, if he was sat on the bed about to get out, the first bullet hitting his left elbow which caused the arm to jump upwards leaving the shoulder in position for an almost vertical second shot (Samson's patented arm-jerk reflex theory). Or he might have been holding his left hand up to staunch the mouth wounds which would bring his arm up to a similar position.
Remarkably sharp shooting under pressure.
Why shoot June first?
A much simpler theory is Sheila standing ready as he comes round the landing.
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Lol I'm just being realistic! NB wasn't shot in bedroom as per the physical evidence but it doesn't make JB innocent.
Am I missing something in your argument Holly? How on earth could NB not have been shot in the bedroom when several casings associated with his shooting were clearly found there?
Even if the shooter stood in the bedroom and shot out the door the casings would have fallen on the opposite side of the room to where they were found.
The only possible position of the shooter had to be just inside the bedroom facing into the room, the same position from where June was also shot.
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I know. I get it, I really do, but it's like "susan" on blue, saying that she keeps an open mind. So completely open that the wind blows through.
Anyhoo. At the risk of sounding patronising, and I'm sorry if I do, we will NEVER know who was where, in what position they were in, and in what sequence the killings were executed. What I do struggle with is...a) Nevill phoning Bamber, and....b) Sheila shooting herself twice. For forensic reasons that I have banged on about at length. She had no blood in her lungs or stomach. Sadly, the children did.
I made contact with Craig Fries and Judy Melinek:
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/references
They seem to think a reconstruction is possible. I guess a cynic would add "of course... $$ £4%4%" But I don't see why not. All the evidence is still available:
Physical layout of WHF
Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' wounds and anatomy
Soc photos for casings
Image of rifle and silencer
It would surely be possible to map this out using digital technology. But it is likely to be more complicated and costly than another test which has the potential to destroy the silencer evidence. And as I said a reconstruction showing NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing and main stairs, or main stairs only, doesn't make JB innocent or overcome the silencer evidence.
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Am I missing something in your argument Holly? How on earth could NB not have been shot in the bedroom when several casings associated with his shooting were clearly found there?
Even if the shooter stood in the bedroom and shot out the door the casings would have fallen on the opposite side of the room to where they were found.
The only possible position of the shooter had to be just inside the bedroom facing into the room, the same position from where June was also shot.
According to Ed Lawson's cross-examination of Malcolm Fletcher June sustained a total of 8 gsw's. 1 gsw didn't penetrate her skin and caused a bruise only which resulted in bullet DRH/5. Had exhibits not been destroyed then it may well have been possible to check this bullet for June's DNA. 8 casings were found either on June's side of the bed or on the floor June's side. The other four casings found upstairs and relevant to June/NB: DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 were found just inside the door, on the transition strip and landing. Imo this shows the perp stood in the entrance facing out shooting at NB on the landing or the perp on the main stairs and shooting at NB on the main stairs. The casings eject to the right, upwards and forwards.
The perp was clearly stood in a very similar location for DRH/6, 7, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43 with the barrel pointing in the same direction. Then moved for DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 with the barrel pointing in a completely different direction. The fact NB was shot on the landing and main stairs or main stairs only doesn't make JB innocent but it does create a highly plausible scenario for the claimed call from NB.
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DRH/3, 4 and 5 might have been kicked to where they were found by anyone in the room - June as she shuffled around the bed, Nevill or his son as they rushed to get downstairs, members of the TFG, or even Crispy who had free run of the house for four hours. If at first the door was open when the perp entered, then partially closed, then opened again before June collapsed in front, it could also have pushed them there.
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DRH/3, 4 and 5 might have been kicked to where they were found by anyone in the room - June as she shuffled around the bed, Nevill or his son as they rushed to get downstairs, members of the TFG, or even Crispy who had free run of the house for four hours. If at first the door was open when the perp entered, then partially closed, then opened again before June collapsed in front, it could also have pushed them there.
Yes I agree but its quite remarkable and some coincidence that the totality of the physical evidence all points to NB sustaining his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs: trajectories and lack of NB's blood found in the bedroom, leading out of the bedroom and onto the landing or anywhere on the landing.
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Why do many of those that believe JB innocent including JB and Mike Tesko appear unable to argue the above? Why did JB's defence at trial and 2002 appeal not argue the above?
JB doesn't believe NB was shot upstairs. He believes the casings were moved by EP. This probably originated from Mike Tesko.
Jeremy Bamber
The following is an excerpt from correspondence received from JB:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
Mike Tesko
"At least four bullet cases, were moved or displaced, from kitchen to bedroom, to accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy"...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877
The Late Ed Lawson QC
Trial Testimony
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8094.0;attach=8257
No challenge to Malcolm Fletcher.
Michael Turner QC
Is there any reason MT QC didn't argue the above ie NB was downstairs with SC, NB phoned JB meanwhile SC went upstairs and shot June with NB then sustaining his facial gsw's and shoulder, elbow/chest gsw on the landing stairs/main stairs? Instead he attempted to explain the absence of blood on the phone even though the pathological evidence shows NB was incapable of purposeful speech after sustaining the facial gsw's.
Ground 12 – the telephone in the kitchen 429. Ground 12 complains that at trial the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that an officer had used the telephone at White House Farm on 7 August, thereby potentially destroying evidence and disturbing the original scene. This ground of course closely related to grounds 4 and 4a but nevertheless stands as a ground in which non-disclosure is again raised.
430. At trial the evidence was that when the kitchen was entered the telephone in the kitchen was off the hook as can be seen in a number of photographs particularly photographs 13 and 14. The defence contended that the telephone off the hook was entirely consistent with Nevill Bamber having phoned the Appellant. The Prosecution countered this by alleging that the Appellant had set the scene. They drew attention to the fact that Nevill Bamber was severely bloodied and that the telephone had no visible blood upon it although no swabs were taken from it.
431. Complaint is made that the Crown failed to disclose at trial the fact that an officer of the TFG had used the telephone in the office at White House Farm. Detective Superintendent Ainsley wrote in both his full and interim report:
"In the company office on the first floor was a blue coloured telephone with a digital display memory. There is no evidence to suggest this telephone was used on the night in question but it was used by an officer of the Essex Police Tactical Firearms Group after the farmhouse was entered".
432. In order for the office telephone to be used it is necessary either to replace the kitchen hand piece on the phone or disconnect it or depress the black buttons on the phone. The telephone was plugged in to a point in a different room and hence was capable of being unplugged without any need to disturb the crime scene in the kitchen.
433. Mr Turner submits, however, that if Mr Ainsley's reports had been disclosed to the defence at trial, they could have canvassed the real possibility that the hand piece was indeed replaced on the kitchen phone to enable a phone call to be made on the office phone and thereafter the hand piece was removed again to recreate the scene of crime.
434. Mr Turner places some reliance on a statement of the 11 November 1986 made by DS Davidson, the scenes of crime officer who arrived at the farmhouse at 8.40 a.m. He wrote:
"When I got there, there were policemen everywhere so it seemed. I spoke to some Uniform officers in the farmyard but I could not find out exactly what happened".
435. Later he wrote:
"The impression I got when I arrived was that the scene was not being preserved and I was surprised to see those officers in the house".
436. We were also invited to look at photograph 13 in the jury bundle which shows blood staining on the kitchen working surface a foot or so from the kitchen telephone.
437. Mr Ainsley has been asked what the source was of his information that a phone call was made from the office. In a recent statement dated the 24 September 2002 he wrote:
"Obviously somebody told me they'd used the phone because I've got it in my report and it would have been the subject of a written report of some type".
438. No such written report has been found. Mr Ainsley also wrote:
"From my best recollection it was a totally separate line a different telephone line altogether".
439. This of course was inaccurate as would have been obvious to anyone actually using or trying to use the office phone.
440. It is clear the Mr Ainsley cannot identify the source of his information. Statements have been taken from all 10 firearms officers who were inside the farmhouse. They all deny using the telephone. They had no need to use the office telephone. Each had his own police radio and in any event each was trained not to disturb the scene of any crime.
441. Mr Turner applied to call Mr Ainsley so that he might cross-examine him about this matter. We refused that application on the grounds that he could give no evidence from his personal knowledge about the matter and he was unable to identify the source of his information. We did not consider it to be in the interests of justice to receive hearsay evidence from an unidentified source, not least when it would be directly contradicted by 10 witnesses whom Mr Turner quite understandably did not wish to cross-examine.
442. We have concluded that even if a phone call was made from the office and even if the hand piece on the kitchen phone was replaced for that purpose and removed after the phone call, we cannot envisage that the acts of replacing and removing the hand piece could possibly remove all visible trace of any blood which might have been transferred onto the hand piece when Nevill Bamber made the phone call in issue. We have had regard to the extent of Nevill Bamber's injuries and also to the blood visible on the work surface. We conclude that the possibility of blood being removed without visible trace from the kitchen phone hand piece by acts of replacing and removing the hand piece to be fanciful. There is no admissible evidence that any phone call was made by a TFG officer, nor indeed would there have been had Mr Ainsley's report been disclosed. As we have earlier commented it is not common practice to disclose police reports written in the preparation of a case for trial. We reject the submission that the possible making of a phone call from the office was deliberately withheld by investigating officers. Had they been involved in such an activity the information would not have been communicated to the DPP and to Counsel.
443. We do not believe there was any disturbance of the crime scene. Mr Davidson's statement made no mention of any actual disturbance nor do we consider there to be a realistic possibility that any blood was removed from the kitchen phone hand piece. This ground, as was the case with ground 2, depends upon unsubstantiated hearsay and must necessarily fail.
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I made contact with Craig Fries and Judy Melinek:
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(17)30002-6/references
They seem to think a reconstruction is possible. I guess a cynic would add "of course... $$ £4%4%" But I don't see why not. All the evidence is still available:
Physical layout of WHF
Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' wounds and anatomy
Soc photos for casings
Image of rifle and silencer
It would surely be possible to map this out using digital technology. But it is likely to be more complicated and costly than another test which has the potential to destroy the silencer evidence. And as I said a reconstruction showing NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing and main stairs, or main stairs only, doesn't make JB innocent or overcome the silencer evidence.
I distinctly remember old Colly Cropper on blue PROMISING to finance any tests that Bamber needed. You should contact her, Holl, get her to cough up. If she's still alive.
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I distinctly remember old Colly Cropper on blue PROMISING to finance any tests that Bamber needed. You should contact her, Holl, get her to cough up. If she's still alive.
She'll be totally proccupied with Robert Halfon now he's a Minister.
Although a reconstruction could potentially support JB's case there's also a counter argument (as you've pointed out) and in any event it doesn't tackle the central plank of the prosecution case against JB namely the silencer.
JB's former solicitor and CCRC commissioner Ewen Smith re the silencer @ 3 mins in:
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
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She'll be totally proccupied with Robert Halfon now he's a Minister.
Although a reconstruction could potentially support JB's case there's also a counter argument (as you've pointed out) and in any event it doesn't tackle the central plank of the prosecution case against JB namely the silencer.
JB's former solicitor and CCRC commissioner Ewen Smith re the silencer @ 3 mins in:
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2001/03/12/BSP120301024/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
But even without the silencer, it doesn't make Jeremy innocent.
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But even without the silencer, it doesn't make Jeremy innocent.
True but my understanding is that the judicial system in England is adversarial and based on the presumption of innocence at trial with a jury finding not guilty or guilty. Thereafter at appeal it is about finding some evidence that renders the trial verdict unsafe. It is almost certain that if the silencer evidence can be undermined then JB's conviction will be quashed as per Ewen Smith above (and if it isn't the conviction will stand).
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True but my understanding is that the judicial system in England is adversarial and based on the presumption of innocence at trial with a jury finding not guilty or guilty. Thereafter at appeal it is about finding some evidence that renders the trial verdict unsafe. It is almost certain that if the silencer evidence can be undermined then JB's conviction will be quashed as per Ewen Smith above (and if it isn't the conviction will stand).
Holly:
We are describing parallel universes here and in Mark Lundy in New Zealand.
Jeremy Bamber and Mark Lundy are accused of killing their families for financial gain.
They both have cast iron logistical alibis.
Locked room murder mysteries are great fiction, but terrible witch trials.
You are doing all in your power to help this forum arrive at the obvious solution.
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And how come Roch is suddenly some sort of Bamber virgin? He was a mod, 4 years ago.
I don't mind posters writing long posts making big statements. Providing sources or good supporting arguments are supplied. With or without requests.
In the last week -
Sheila 'definately comnitted the massacre'.
The police '100%' framed Bamber.
Sheila was 'planning the massacre in her head' at supper.
Bamber is innocent because he chose the wrong weapon.
The massacre was not planned.
Some of the police were aware Sheila was the killer.
Bamber is innocent because he made mistakes afterwards.
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The problem is no sources or valid supporting arguments have been supplied.
Today it has been said a police man saw Sheila without the rifle on her. But again no source has been supplied.
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As far as I'm concerned all the physical evidence supports NB sustaining his lip and jaw gsw's facing towards the master bedroom whilst stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside. NB then retreated back downstairs sustaining the gsw's to his shoulder and chest/elbow graze wound whilst on the main stairs, facing down towards the main door/hall, with the perp behind. This is supported by:
- None of NB's blood found in the main bedroom. Two small spots of blood were found on the landing but these were inconclusive when tested. Bloodstaining was found on the stairs but this doesn't appear to have been tested or if it was the results appear unknown. Blood matching NB's group was found on wallpaper in the hall.
- The location of casings supports the theory above. Malcolm Fletcher told the court at trial that the Anshutz rifle ejects casings to the right, upwards and forwards at a distance of up to 4 metres. The following vid shows 'Farm Girl' firing her Bushmaster rifle which shows the sort of height and length casings travel. Although the Bushmaster ejects backwards. (New vid Myster.) The vid supports the theory the perp fired at NB from behind on the stairs and casings DRH/13 and 14 flew over the handrail and ended up on the transistion strip and landing stairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6I8lgiagFU - Watch the casings fly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whOpcwwu5Zo - Watch the casings fly!
We can also see how straightforward it is to load the magazine, prepare for fire and pull the trigger with longish, manicured and painted nails.
- Distance of shots: lip and jaw within inches of NB's skin and shoulder and chest/elbow at least 2 feet from body.
- Trajectories: 20 degrees below the horizontal lip and jaw. Downwards for the shoulder and chest/elbow.
- Wound tracks: front to back for lip and jaw. Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms the shoulder shot was fired from above.
SC as Perp
I doubt any expert will disagree with the fact that NB was shot in the locations above. However as pointed out by puglove it doesn't rule out JB. My theory is that NB and SC were downstairs. Why they were downstairs, how long they had been there and their exact locations will never be known. NB made the tel call to JB. SC went upstairs and shot June. NB leaves the phone and runs upstairs where he is shot as above.
JB as Perp
However it is possible NB heard a noise whilst JB was in the twins room. NB went to investigate. Meanwhile JB entered the master bedroom via the box room and shot June. NB then reappears at the bedroom door and is shot as above.
SC as perp
She was able to shoot June and NB at different times in different rooms: June the bedroom, NB the landing stairs and main stairs. 2 adults v 1 adult.
JB as perp
He was also able to shoot June and NB at different times in different rooms as above but what was SC doing? 3 adults v 1 adult. Why and how would SC sleep through June being shot at least 5 times in the master bedroom and NB twice on the landing and twice on the main stairs? SC's bedroom was literally a few steps away from the master bedroom across the landing. JB could not be in 3 places at once. June was still mobile evidenced by the fact she was able to walk around the bed as per bloodstaining. NB was able to make it to the kitchen. SC was uninjured whilst in her own bedroom. Toxicology tests show SC had a moderate dose of Haloperidol in her blood and a trace of cannabis so compos mentis. The tracks and trajectories of SC's gsw's were up into her neck whilst prone on the floor. How could JB have pulled this off without SC resisting and causing some injury to JB?
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According to Ed Lawson's cross-examination of Malcolm Fletcher June sustained a total of 8 gsw's. 1 gsw didn't penetrate her skin and caused a bruise only which resulted in bullet DRH/5. Had exhibits not been destroyed then it may well have been possible to check this bullet for June's DNA. 8 casings were found either on June's side of the bed or on the floor June's side. The other four casings found upstairs and relevant to June/NB: DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 were found just inside the door, on the transition strip and landing. Imo this shows the perp stood in the entrance facing out shooting at NB on the landing or the perp on the main stairs and shooting at NB on the main stairs. The casings eject to the right, upwards and forwards.
The perp was clearly stood in a very similar location for DRH/6, 7, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 43 with the barrel pointing in the same direction. Then moved for DRH/3, 4, 13 and 14 with the barrel pointing in a completely different direction. The fact NB was shot on the landing and main stairs or main stairs only doesn't make JB innocent but it does create a highly plausible scenario for the claimed call from NB. Only the killer knows where he was when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.
Did you ever think that casings DRH 3,4,5 and 13 could very well have rebounded off the bedroom door after having been discharged from a position at or just outside the door? No amount of theorising can ever determine the actual position the shooter was in Holly, there are simply too many variables at play. Only the killer knows where he stood when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.
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SC as Perp
I doubt any expert will disagree with the fact that NB was shot in the locations above. However as pointed out by puglove it doesn't rule out JB. My theory is that NB and SC were downstairs. Why they were downstairs, how long they had been there and their exact locations will never be known. NB made the tel call to JB. SC went upstairs and shot June. NB leaves the phone and runs upstairs where he is shot as above.
Not in the real world that I inhabit, Holly. If Sheila had hold of a loaded rifle and was "going crazy", it beggars belief that Nevill would have allowed her out of his sight to waste time kindling a sleeping log.
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Did you ever think that casings DRH 3,4,5 and 13 could very well have rebounded off the bedroom door after having been discharged from a position at or just outside the door? No amount of theorising can ever determine the actual position the shooter was in Holly, there are simply too many variables at play. Only the killer knows where he stood when he discharged the rifle at June and Nevill.
DRH/5 was a bullet (now destroyed) which Scipio and I dedicated an entire thread to:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7940.msg383818#msg383818
There's a mountain of available data which according to experts will prove in no uncertain terms where vitcims were shot and the position of perp: bloodstaining, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
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Not in the real world that I inhabit, Holly. If Sheila had hold of a loaded rifle and was "going crazy", it beggars belief that Nevill would have allowed her out of his sight to waste time kindling a sleeping log.
The physical evidence at soc seems to suggest otherwise.
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By sheer chance and coincidence I glanced through Scott Lomax's book yesterday and noticed he claims SC's fingerprints were found on a shotgun. No source so I've no idea how reliable it is.
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Anyway back on topic. I was wondering why JB's defence didn't try to reconstruct the soc? Asking 12 people taken at random (jury) to take on board a lot of complex info over a short time period is asking a lot. At one time I thought the case, like many complex trials, was perhaps beyond a jury but I think I was wrong as it is clear from the questions they posed to the judge that they arrived at the hub of the case which is the silencer and blood. Had the defence painted some pictures, metaphorically, this could have potentially been a powerful tool.
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By sheer chance and coincidence I glanced through Scott Lomax's book yesterday and noticed he claims SC's fingerprints were found on a shotgun. No source so I've no idea how reliable it is.
I actually wrote to SL on this subject a few years ago, just checked my email and it's still there. This is what he said but it's not very convincing ..... By the way, I have left the time and date stamp but have not included email addresses.
"Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:54 Subject:
Re: Bamber Case (Shotgun Finger Prints)
Hi Caroline, Thank you for your email. You are probably best contacting the Bamber campaign as they have greater access to the documents. I have seen the relevant document but don't have a copy. I am not convinced it is strictly relevant to what happened that night. I am not sure what the document reference is - I wrote the book in 2004 which is when I saw the document, so I can't recall its contents. There will be references to it in my notes but I don't have time to go through them all. So it is best you get in touch with the campaign."
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The phone call was clearly an important aspect of the case for jurors to consider. Either the call happened, as JB claimed, and he's innocent. Or he made it up and he's guilty.
If the perp burst into the master bedroom with NB sustaining his lip and jaw gsw's there, this seems to support the prosecution case of no phone call since no blood was found on the phone and NB's lip and jaw gsw rendered him incapable of purposeful speech
The defence at trial and 2002 appeal appear to have made the fatal mistake of going along with the prosecution case that the perp burst into the master bedroom and shot NB in the bedroom despite the physical evidence suggesting otherwise. Therefore how could NB have made the tel call when a) NB was losing a lot of blood from his lip and jaw gsw's and none was found on or around the mouthpiece and b) the lip and jaw gsw's rendered him incapable of purposeful speech.
In the attached Geoffrey Rivlin QC cross examines Dr Vanezis about NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the amount of blood produced. Imo GR doesn't spell it out for jurors by asking the question ie could NB have sustained these gsw's in the bedroom and escaped without leaving a trace of blood in the bedroom or landing? Instead it could be considered an own goal in that jurors may well have thought thought NB could not have made the call wtihout leaving any blood on the mouthpiece? We are told by the appeal court judges that Geoffrey Rivlin had a reputation for thoroughness:
"Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness",
In the attached Ed Lawson QC cross-examines Malcolm Fletcher and asks if anyone was shot outside the bedroom upstairs. MF answers no. Ed Lawson offers no challenge despite MF's explanation that casings are ejected to the right, upwards and forwards and travel up to 4 feet. And yet EL was hailed as the "cleverest of the clever" &%+((£
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html
Everyone makes mistakes. Yes even me 8)--)) And yet these people are talked about as though super human which imo is unhealthy for the judicial system.
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In the following Michael Turner QC explains the basics of how the judicial system works ie take instructions from a client and give it your best shot in attempting to defend even if you think the case is a dead duck.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html
In JB's WS of 7th Aug he states:
"She [SC] would make all night phone calls to my father saying she was the Virgin Mary, leader of the CND and Joan of Arc".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4560
We obviously have no way of knowing whether or not this statement is true. But surely if you were looking to test JB's case and defend him you would start off by considering his claims that SC communicated with NB during "all night" phone calls. Therefore when she was under the same roof she wouldn't need to communicate via phone when she could do so face-to-face. This would surely start the defence thinking about the possibility of SC and NB up and about communicating?
Is there any evidence anywhere of the defence challenging the prosecution case over NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's in the main bedroom?
It doesn't make any sense to me that the defence appear to have overlooked this?
- JB claims SC communicated with NB during the night
- JB claims he received NB's phone call circa 3.15 am - 3.30am
- The ivory phone, usually kept in the bedroom, was found off the cradle on the kitchen worktop
- PC West confirmed via a BT op that the line was open circa 3.45am
- None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two tiny spots on the landing were inconclusive when tested. The substantial blood trail started on the stairs
- Casings support NB sustaining gsw's on landing
- Distance of shots are difficult to reconcile with the bedroom
- Trajectories are impossible to reconcile with the bedroom
- Wound tracks are difficult to reconcile with the bedroom
- No blood was found on the ivory phone
- The pathological evidence shows NB was incapable of puropseful speech having sustained the lip and jaw gsw
And yet we are told that Michael Turner QC is “a barrister who can secure results no others could”. &%+((£
I'm struggling to think of any other profession where individuals receive these sorts of accolades? Especially when it is difficult to measure success and/or failures. When a defendent is found guilty it is assumed they are in fact guilty rather than the defence was poor.
As previously mentioned at JB's 2002 appeal Michael Turner QC attempted to justify the lack of blood on the ivory phone by attempting to show that an officer had used the phone thus disturbing any evidence eg blood! Point 12:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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I actually wrote to SL on this subject a few years ago, just checked my email and it's still there. This is what he said but it's not very convincing ..... By the way, I have left the time and date stamp but have not included email addresses.
"Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:54 Subject:
Re: Bamber Case (Shotgun Finger Prints)
Hi Caroline, Thank you for your email. You are probably best contacting the Bamber campaign as they have greater access to the documents. I have seen the relevant document but don't have a copy. I am not convinced it is strictly relevant to what happened that night. I am not sure what the document reference is - I wrote the book in 2004 which is when I saw the document, so I can't recall its contents. There will be references to it in my notes but I don't have time to go through them all. So it is best you get in touch with the campaign."
Thanks. Interesting. Had SL created a notes and ref section as CAL did we would know the source. Its clear none of the victims, incl SC, sustained any gsw's from a shotgun. Someone thought they heard the sound of gunshot much earlier but this isn't out of the ordinary for the countryside. Even if SC's fingerprint(s) were on the shotgun it could mean anything from she held it at some stage and it was entirely unconnected to 6th/7th Aug to she moved it to access the rifle or the shotgun was her first choice but she decided against for whatever reason(s).
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In the following Michael Turner QC explains the basics of how the judicial system works ie take instructions from a client and give it your best shot in attempting to defend even if you think the case is a dead duck.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html
In JB's WS of 7th Aug he states:
"She [SC] would make all night phone calls to my father saying she was the Virgin Mary, leader of the CND and Joan of Arc".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4560
We obviously have no way of knowing whether or not this statement is true. But surely if you were looking to test JB's case and defend him you would start off by considering his claims that SC communicated with NB during "all night" phone calls. Therefore when she was under the same roof she wouldn't need to communicate via phone when she could do so face-to-face. This would surely start the defence thinking about the possibility of SC and NB up and about communicating?
Is there any evidence anywhere of the defence challenging the prosecution case over NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's in the main bedroom?
It doesn't make any sense to me that the defence appear to have overlooked this?
- JB claims SC communicated with NB during the night
- JB claims he received NB's phone call circa 3.15 am - 3.30am
- The ivory phone, usually kept in the bedroom, was found off the cradle on the kitchen worktop
- PC West confirmed via a BT op that the line was open circa 3.45am
- None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two tiny spots on the landing were inconclusive when tested. The substantial blood trail started on the stairs
- Casings support NB sustaining gsw's on landing
- Distance of shots are difficult to reconcile with the bedroom
- Trajectories are impossible to reconcile with the bedroom
- Wound tracks are difficult to reconcile with the bedroom
- No blood was found on the ivory phone
- The pathological evidence shows NB was incapable of puropseful speech having sustained the lip and jaw gsw
And yet we are told that Michael Turner QC is “a barrister who can secure results no others could”. &%+((£
I'm struggling to think of any other profession where individuals receive these sorts of accolades? Especially when it is difficult to measure success and/or failures. When a defendent is found guilty it is assumed they are in fact guilty rather than the defence was poor.
As previously mentioned at JB's 2002 appeal Michael Turner QC attempted to justify the lack of blood on the ivory phone by attempting to show that an officer had used the phone thus disturbing any evidence eg blood! Point 12:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
The "all night phone calls" -to Nevill- Jeremy speaks of appear to have been around the time of/prior too? her first admission to St Andrews. I'm slightly suspicious of the "all night" description. What EXACTLY is meant by it? I have my doubts about the "all night" calls occurring after her second stay in hospital. Also of note are the conversations re the children's care/where Sheila should live. It seemed that these took place when she started going down hill a few months after her first admission. I can't help but wonder if Jeremy transferred the information from then to have it as a more recent -night of massacre- conversation.
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Anyway back on topic. I was wondering why JB's defence didn't try to reconstruct the soc? Asking 12 people taken at random (jury) to take on board a lot of complex info over a short time period is asking a lot. At one time I thought the case, like many complex trials, was perhaps beyond a jury but I think I was wrong as it is clear from the questions they posed to the judge that they arrived at the hub of the case which is the silencer and blood. Had the defence painted some pictures, metaphorically, this could have potentially been a powerful tool.
You really are untangling this by questioning the principles of complexity.
This Scene of crime is extremely simple, and a few key datapoints are all that are required. You can't possibly make complex something straightforward, and when you do you are applying epicycles everywhere.
The fact Sheila has gsws consistent with self delivery is the perfect place to begin.
These are fiendishly difficult to replicate, and particularly so when mum is lying with a wrecked body nearby.
Speaking for myself, I would not comply.
Would April or Caroline?
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Let us imagine the difficulty for example of getting the angle right for one shot that is consistent with self delivery.
Then multiply the probability for shot two.
I am stunned at the difficulty your people have understanding this Holly.
Shame on all of them when you have fine scientists and invented golf.
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The "all night phone calls" -to Nevill- Jeremy speaks of appear to have been around the time of/prior too? her first admission to St Andrews. I'm slightly suspicious of the "all night" description. What EXACTLY is meant by it? I have my doubts about the "all night" calls occurring after her second stay in hospital. Also of note are the conversations re the children's care/where Sheila should live. It seemed that these took place when she started going down hill a few months after her first admission. I can't help but wonder if Jeremy transferred the information from then to have it as a more recent -night of massacre- conversation.
My reference to the "all night" phone calls was to illustrate that it was something for the defence to use and track back on. Not the phone calls per se but the fact events unfolded as per the physical evidence eg NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs not in the bedroom. Everyone, including the defence, seems to have been swept along by the assumption that the perp burst in and shot NB and June in the main bedroom bedroom despite all the physical evidence suggesting otherwise. Sometimes something relatively simple can easily be overlooked by even the most capable but here the defence had something to go on ie JB's claims that SC was in the habit of being up and about during the night and wanting contact with NB. Whether it was true or not is irrelevant. If you're looking to defend a client then surely you're seeking out info to prove what he or she is claiming. This would surely get the defence thinking ok maybe NB wasn't shot in the bedroom but was already up and about and elsewhere? Maybe I'm not explaining this very well!
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You really are untangling this by questioning the principles of complexity.
This Scene of crime is extremely simple, and a few key datapoints are all that are required. You can't possibly make complex something straightforward, and when you do you are applying epicycles everywhere.
The fact Sheila has gsws consistent with self delivery is the perfect place to begin.
These are fiendishly difficult to replicate, and particularly so when mum is lying with a wrecked body nearby.
Speaking for myself, I would not comply.
Would April or Caroline?
Well if the defence didn't present the scenario you and I see how can we expect a jury to go for it?
JB has had years to figure it out but hadn't about this time last year.
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Let us imagine the difficulty for example of getting the angle right for one shot that is consistent with self delivery.
Then multiply the probability for shot two.
I am stunned at the difficulty your people have understanding this Holly.
Shame on all of them when you have fine scientists and invented golf.
The Scots have probably produced more notable scientists per population than the English and invented the game of golf as we know it today.
Who do you blame for this sorry saga? The police, relatives, JM, experts, prosecution or defence? I blame the defence entirely.
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My reference to the "all night" phone calls was to illustrate that it was something for the defence to use and track back on. Not the phone calls per se but the fact events unfolded as per the physical evidence eg NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs not in the bedroom. Everyone, including the defence, seems to have been swept along by the assumption that the perp burst in and shot NB and June in the main bedroom bedroom despite all the physical evidence suggesting otherwise. Sometimes something relatively simple can easily be overlooked by even the most capable but here the defence had something to go on ie JB's claims that SC was in the habit of being up and about during the night and wanting contact with NB. Whether it was true or not is irrelevant. If you're looking to defend a client then surely you're seeking out info to prove what he or she is claiming. This would surely get the defence thinking ok maybe NB wasn't shot in the bedroom but was already up and about and elsewhere? Maybe I'm not explaining this very well!
You're explaining just fine................certainly clearly enough to bring back this nagging doubt. SO much of what supporters say seems to centre around "Whether it was true or not is irrelevant". This seems to suggest that if something MAY have happened in any other way, it doesn't need to be proved but it's good enough to get Jeremy released, which is EXACTLY what the prosecution were accused of doing ie showing it was possible for something to have happened without proving it DID happen, when Jeremy was convicted.
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The Scots have probably produced more notable scientists per population than the English and invented the game of golf as we know it today.
Who do you blame for this sorry saga? The police, relatives, JM, experts, prosecution or defence? I blame the defence entirely.
Jeremy Bamber obviously.
History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html)
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Well if the defence didn't present the scenario you and I see how can we expect a jury to go for it?
JB has had years to figure it out but hadn't about this time last year.
This is bigger than Jeremy Bamber, it is a march for science, a requirement for accountability amongst the prosecutors, police, judges and so on.
This is a situation that can be changed forever with concerted effort.
Look at Richard Glossip, he just came within a despatch error of being executed, and will be freed within a year if the forensic accountant is taken at face value.
Blaming JB is slightly missing the point.
Change is due.
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My reference to the "all night" phone calls was to illustrate that it was something for the defence to use and track back on. Not the phone calls per se but the fact events unfolded as per the physical evidence eg NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs not in the bedroom. Everyone, including the defence, seems to have been swept along by the assumption that the perp burst in and shot NB and June in the main bedroom bedroom despite all the physical evidence suggesting otherwise. Sometimes something relatively simple can easily be overlooked by even the most capable but here the defence had something to go on ie JB's claims that SC was in the habit of being up and about during the night and wanting contact with NB. Whether it was true or not is irrelevant. If you're looking to defend a client then surely you're seeking out info to prove what he or she is claiming. This would surely get the defence thinking ok maybe NB wasn't shot in the bedroom but was already up and about and elsewhere? Maybe I'm not explaining this very well!
No matter how many times you go on repeating that, it won't make it come true.
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Jeremy Bamber obviously.
History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html)
You might note a singular difference Myster. Henri van Braeda was always at the crime scene. This is resolutely different to the Bain or Bamber cases where the accused were remote, and the found scenes were not just consistent with suicide following murder, but explicable only by suicide following murder.
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You might note a singular difference Myster. Henri van Braeda was always at the crime scene. This is resolutely different to the Bain or Bamber cases where the accused were remote, and the found scenes were not just consistent with suicide, but explicable only by suicide.
You're blinkered by the idea that Jeremy Bamber was incapable of cycling four miles, and gaining access via a window which he'd done several times before.
Stephen Seddon, another inheritance killer, claimed he was a hundred miles away, but the police and jury saw through him too...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1048.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1048.0)
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You're explaining just fine................certainly clearly enough to bring back this nagging doubt. SO much of what supporters say seems to centre around "Whether it was true or not is irrelevant". This seems to suggest that if something MAY have happened in any other way, it doesn't need to be proved but it's good enough to get Jeremy released, which is EXACTLY what the prosecution were accused of doing ie showing it was possible for something to have happened without proving it DID happen, when Jeremy was convicted.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. In the absence of digital/satellite technology the phone calls are a complete unknown and will remain so. The physical evidence at soc: bloodstaining and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks are capable of proving NB sustained his upstairs gsw's: lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest on the landing stairs and or main stairs. This strongly suggests NB had recently been downstairs therefore lending support to JB's claim of a tel call from NB. The fact NB was shot on the stairs is not proof that NB made the tel call as he could have been up and about for another reason(s) as puglove pointed out. The point being JB's defence didn't advance the fact NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs. The downward trajectories also show the perp was elevated therefore NB was coming up the stairs as opposed to going down.
What I'm trying to say is that had Paul Terzeon, Geoffrey Rivlin and Ed Lawson pondered JB's WS of 7th Aug they would see JB's claims of all night tel calls from SC to NB. I hear what you're saying that this may have occured before SC's last visit to St Andrews and before she was taking Haloperidol. All I'm saying is that JB's WS should have acted as a prompt for the defence to consider what the physical evidence alone confirms ie that NB wasn't shot in the master bedroom but on the landing stairs and/or main stairs and was clearly already up and about when first shot.
We know up until and incl the 2002 CoA hearing this wasn't advanced by the defence. Had it been then Michael Turner QC wouldn't be trying to explain away the absence of blood on the ivory phone found off the cradle on the kitchen worktop. There was no blood on the handset as in all probability NB made the call before any shots were fired.
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Jeremy Bamber obviously.
History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html)
History already repeated itself:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3990856/House-horror-bloodbath-Woman-shoots-dead-mother-brother-three-children-aged-seven-ten-killing-Austria.html
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No matter how many times you go on repeating that, it won't make it come true.
Not on the evidence we have to hand. The CCRC need to order the current tenants/owners of WHF to open it up for laser measuring and digital mapping.
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Jeremy Bamber obviously.
History about to repeat itself with another family slaughtered because of a son's greed?... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439476/Son-accused-killing-parents-axe-murder-testify.html)
Didn't know the right number to call? Sound familiar?
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Didn't know the right number to call? Sound familiar?
In South Africa, for emergency it's 10111 (ten, triple one) landline or 112 mobile... so a lot harder to remember than 999 or 911!
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AND he tried to call his girlfriend first but couldn't get through! AND he was charged with cannabis offences! AND its only day 1 of the trial! Even so I can feel a change of stance coming on %&5%£
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders
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In South Africa, for emergency it's 10111 (ten, triple one) landline or 112 mobile... so a lot harder to remember than 999 or 911!
10-11-1, is that difficult? However, I will agree that 999 has to be the simplest to recall.
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10-11-1, is that difficult? However, I will agree that 999 has to be the simplest to recall.
I must stop reading Adam's sarky comments, it's catchin'.
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I must stop reading Adam's sarky comments, it's catchin'.
Adam's posts are endlessly amusing *&*%£
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Adam's posts are endlessly amusing *&*%£
Unlike the endless lists inspired by Hugo N.Tufar.
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Unlike the endless lists inspired by Hugo N.Tufar.
I was thinking more about Adam's 'forensic library' and 'mountain of circumstantial evidence' which gets Roch in a real tizz *&*%£
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I've just read the following on Blue:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395937.html#msg395937
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395944.html#msg395944
From the CoA document:
60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered, it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.
1. 13 casings were found inside the bedroom incl the 2 attributed to SC and a further casing on the landing = total of 14.
2. At trial Malcolm Fletcher said June might have sustained an 8th gsw which bruised her chest only and account for bullet DRH/5 found near the dressing table/window. Therefore the 8th casing found June's side of the bed might pertain to this.
3. There appears to be an assumption NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom but what is this based on?
Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc. Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC.
Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with:
Dr Vanezis - pathologist - Trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - Interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - Casinngs and distance of shots
Why didn't the jury visit WHF?
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Off the top of my head I can recall the following cases all of which involve some element of the case/crime carried out within defendants' properties and the jury was taken to visit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/02/april-jones-jury-mark-bridger
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1446414/Murder-trial-jurors-walk-through-Soham-in-the-final-footsteps-of-Holly-and-Jessica.html
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jan/21/ukcrime.allegrastratton
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/silent-jury-visits-cromwell-street-1578429.html
Can anyone think of/find any cases where the jury was not taken to visit?
Any ideas why the jury at JB's trial was not afforded a visit to WHF?
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I've just read the following on Blue:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395937.html#msg395937
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg395944.html#msg395944
From the CoA document:
60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered, it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.
1. 13 casings were found inside the bedroom incl the 2 attributed to SC and a further casing on the landing = total of 14.
2. At trial Malcolm Fletcher said June might have sustained an 8th gsw which bruised her chest only and account for bullet DRH/5 found near the dressing table/window. Therefore the 8th casing found June's side of the bed might pertain to this.
3. There appears to be an assumption NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom but what is this based on?
Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc. Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC.
Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with:
Dr Vanezis - pathologist - Trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - Interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - Casinngs and distance of shots
Why didn't the jury visit WHF?
It's being suggested that Nevill was not shot in the bedroom. But shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. David saying bullet casings travel forward 6 feet.
Not sure how bullet casings travelling forward 6 feet supports Nevill being shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. Nevill's 4 bullet casings would then all be on the stairs rather than in the bedroom.
This is because Nevill got within inches of the rifle being held by Sheila, who according to David's diagrams was already standing by the bedroom door.
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It's being suggested that Nevill was not shot in the bedroom. But shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. David saying bullet casings travel forward 6 feet.
Not sure how bullet casings travelling forward 6 feet supports Nevill being shot on the stairs from the bedroom door. Nevill's 4 bullet casings would then all be on the stairs rather than in the bedroom.
This is because Nevill got within inches of the rifle being held by Sheila, who according to David's diagrams was already standing by the bedroom door.
Imo NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs and/or winder stairs. This is what the totality of the physical evidence supports.
Poster MikeG on the IA forum, an architect, said he was able to assess the dimension of the landing along with Malcolm Fletcher's distance of shots for NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the distance from the rifles butt to casing ejection port. He said it wasn't possible for the perp to inflict NB's gsw's stood within the bedroom with NB on the landing stairs and the right angle of the bedroom wall impeding the flight of casings DRH/3 and 4. MikeG seemed competent but I'm not sure the same can be said of Malcolm Fletcher and his assessment of the distance of shots. Without checking these things out its difficult to pinpoint the exact position of perp and NB but there's no doubt in my mind that the only reasonable explanation for NB's downward gsw trajectories is that the perp was elevated and NB stood on stairs below the perp.
SC was 5' 7.5" and NB 6'4". Dr Vanezis said NB's lip and jaw gsw's were about 20 degrees below the horizontal. The rise of a typical stair is 8.25" with the run 9.0". The rifle is 43" long from butt to muzzle. Obviously we have no knowledge of whether the perp held the rifle conventionally ie up against the shoulder, around waist level or somewhere in between. It's possible the perp may have inflicted NB's upstairs gsw's stood on the winder stairs or main stairs. Whether the perp was stood within the bedroom facing out onto the landing with NB on the landing stairs or the perp was stood on the winder stairs or main stairs with NB on the main stairs the casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right so would land about where they were photographed by DC Bird and relayed to the court during DC Hammersley's trial testimony.
According to MF's trial testimony casings travel about 4 feet.
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Imo NB was shot on the landing stairs and/or main stairs and/or winder stairs. This is what the totality of the physical evidence supports.
Poster MikeG on the IA forum, an architect, said he was able to assess the dimension of the landing along with Malcolm Fletcher's distance of shots for NB's lip and jaw gsw's and the distance from the rifles butt to casing ejection port. He said it wasn't possible for the perp to inflict NB's gsw's stood within the bedroom with NB on the landing stairs and the right angle of the bedroom wall impeding the flight of casings DRH/3 and 4. MikeG seemed competent but I'm not sure the same can be said of Malcolm Fletcher and his assessment of the distance of shots. Without checking these things out its difficult to pinpoint the exact position of perp and NB but there's no doubt in my mind that the only reasonable explanation for NB's downward gsw trajectories is that the perp was elevated and NB stood on stairs below the perp.
SC was 5' 7.5" and NB 6'4". Dr Vanezis said NB's lip and jaw gsw's were about 20 degrees below the horizontal. The rise of a typical stair is 8.25" with the run 9.0". The rifle is 43" long from butt to muzzle. Obviously we have no knowledge of whether the perp held the rifle conventionally ie up against the shoulder, around waist level or somewhere in between. It's possible the perp may have inflicted NB's upstairs gsw's stood on the winder stairs or main stairs. Whether the perp was stood within the bedroom facing out onto the landing with NB on the landing stairs or the perp was stood on the winder stairs or main stairs with NB on the main stairs the casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right so would land about where they were photographed by DC Bird and relayed to the court during DC Hammersley's trial testimony.
According to MF's trial testimony casings travel about 4 feet.
David keeps posting diagrams of Sheila shooting Nevill on the stairs. Although Nevill is several feet away in these pictures, which does not correspond with Nevill getting close range shots.
However wouldn't the 4 cartridges be several feet outside the bedroom & down several stairs. David says cartridges from that rifle travel 6 feet forward.
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David keeps posting diagrams of Sheila shooting Nevill on the stairs. Although Nevill is several feet away in these pictures, which does not correspond with Nevill getting close range shots.
However wouldn't the 4 cartridges be several feet outside the bedroom & down several stairs. David says cartridges from that rifle travel 6 feet forward.
David seems rather reticent in posting up his diagrams here &%+((£
NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs: 2 x face, 1 x shoulder (rear) and 1 x elbow/chest (rear). The facial shots were, according to MF, fired within inches of the skin. The other 2 shots were, again according to MF, fired at least 2 feet from the body.
See in the following from about 4.30 in how the casings eject. This rifle, Bushmaster, ejects upwards, backwards and to the right. The Anshutz rifle ejects upwards, forwards and to the right. So the Bushmaster backwards and the Anshutz forwards. You can see how the casings all land in a similar position when the barrel is pointing in the same direction and get a feel for the height and distance they travel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc
You just need to play around with it in your mind's eye taking into account the casing layout diagram, layout of WHF and afaik the only available soc photos of that area.
Sweet dreams 8)-)))
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I'd rather play around with Hot Bod.
8**8:/: ..... 8(*(
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David seems rather reticent in posting up his diagrams here &%+((£
NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs: 2 x face, 1 x shoulder (rear) and 1 x elbow/chest (rear). The facial shots were, according to MF, fired within inches of the skin. The other 2 shots were, again according to MF, fired at least 2 feet from the body.
See in the following from about 4.30 in how the casings eject. This rifle, Bushmaster, ejects upwards, backwards and to the right. The Anshutz rifle ejects upwards, forwards and to the right. So the Bushmaster backwards and the Anshutz forwards. You can see how the casings all land in a similar position when the barrel is pointing in the same direction and get a feel for the height and distance they travel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc
You just need to play around with it in your mind's eye taking into account the casing layout diagram, layout of WHF and afaik the only available soc photos of that area.
Sweet dreams 8)-)))
Hopefully David will explain how Sheila shot Nevill standing at the bedroom door, but the four cartridges didn't travel 6 feet forward well into the hallway and onto the stairs.
He has also said this week via a diagram that - "the position of the rifle in the photos. Is the correct and original location". Which means Sheila was not touched by the police. But then didn't answer my question on who then pulled Sheila's legs after the second shot.
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I'd rather play around with Hot Bod. 8**8:/: ..... 8(*(
So would Teresa May.
As long as ostriches rule, your system stands unassailable.
How delightful for Stephen Kitchko and Jeremy Bamber.
I must say Myster, you are a clone of the Amanda Knox guilters.
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So would Teresa May.
As long as ostriches rule, your system stands unassailable.
How delightful for Stephen Kitchko and Jeremy Bamber.
I must say Myster, you are a clone of the Amanda Knox guilters.
You're obsession with May isn't healthy. I've studied this case for longer and more intensively than you have and Bamber is most definitely guilty.
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David seems rather reticent in posting up his diagrams here &%+((£
NB sustained 4 gsw's upstairs: 2 x face, 1 x shoulder (rear) and 1 x elbow/chest (rear). The facial shots were, according to MF, fired within inches of the skin. The other 2 shots were, again according to MF, fired at least 2 feet from the body.
See in the following from about 4.30 in how the casings eject. This rifle, Bushmaster, ejects upwards, backwards and to the right. The Anshutz rifle ejects upwards, forwards and to the right. So the Bushmaster backwards and the Anshutz forwards. You can see how the casings all land in a similar position when the barrel is pointing in the same direction and get a feel for the height and distance they travel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc)
You just need to play around with it in your mind's eye taking into account the casing layout diagram, layout of WHF and afaik the only available soc photos of that area.
Sweet dreams 8)-)))
All of which in the end proves nothing, because JB could already have been upstairs, holed up in his own bedroom, or bathroom, or toilet, biding his time until Nevill had gone downstairs to investigate any disturbance, after which he sneaked into the master bedroom to shoot June before encountering Nevill again as he came back up. Casing positions beside the bedroom door or on the landing are thus rendered useless in identifying the shooter.
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All of which in the end proves nothing, because JB could already have been upstairs, holed up in his own bedroom, or bathroom, or toilet, biding his time until Nevill had gone downstairs to investigate any disturbance, after which he sneaked into the master bedroom to shoot June before encountering Nevill again as he came back up. Casing positions beside the bedroom door or on the landing are thus rendered useless in identifying the shooter.
I don't believe Bamber hid anywhere. He just went straight to the main bedroom & started shooting June & Nevill.
The cartridges ejecting forward 6 feet forward, as David says they would do explains why some are near the bedroom door.
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I don't believe Bamber hid anywhere. He just went straight to the main bedroom & started shooting June & Nevill.
The cartridges ejecting forward 6 feet forward, as David says they would do explains why some are near the bedroom door.
I agree, the only logical way most of the casings associated with the bedroom shots were found in the bedroom was if they were fired from within or at the entrance. Had the shooter been on the stairs or the landing the casings would not have ended up inside the master bedroom.
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I don't believe Bamber hid anywhere. He just went straight to the main bedroom & started shooting June & Nevill.
The cartridges ejecting forward 6 feet forward, as David says they would do explains why some are near the bedroom door.
Neither do I... that was just a counter-argument to Holly's assertion. It was a case of in through the shower room/toilet window, collect the rifle, then straight upstairs to do the deed. His parents might have been alerted by the noise of the sash being slid open, or toiletries being knocked off the sill, or Crispy barking from his kitchen bed. His plan nearly went to pot because the victims were aware, so he panicked, hence the haphazard shooting resulting in wounds to various parts of their bodies.
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The suggestion oft aired that a third party gunman was involved is well dispelled these days because no hitman would rely on picking up a rifle at the crimescene. Hitmen use their own weapons for a very good reason.
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The suggestion oft aired that a third party gunman was involved is well dispelled these days because no hitman would rely on picking up a rifle at the crimescene. Hitmen use their own weapons for a very good reason.
What self-respecting hit man is going to break into a house on the off chance of finding a suitable weapon?
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You're obsession with May isn't healthy. I've studied this case for longer and more intensively than you have and Bamber is most definitely guilty.
I don't have an obsession with May. In Westminster democracy the PM can pardon. Bamber is innocent and he should be pardoned, the conviction annulled and his property returned.
Thatcher Major Blair and Cameron should all have done this. May is the incumbent and has the ethical obligation until she is replaced.
Length of time studying the case is irrelevant if you have reached the wrong conclusion.
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I don't have an obsession with May. In Westminster democracy the PM can pardon. Bamber is innocent and he should be pardoned, the conviction annulled and his property returned.
Thatcher Major Blair and Cameron should all have done this. May is the incumbent and has the ethical obligation until she is replaced.
Length of time studying the case is irrelevant if you have reached the wrong conclusion.
Theresa May has far, far more important things to occupy her time than the fate of a five times murderer... such as getting rid of those interfering European busybodies for starters.
Bamber was driven by greed for gain and had nothing but contempt for his adoptive family. The savvy cops saw through his lies, so did the jury, but you still see him as a saint! Go figure.
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David seems rather reticent in posting up his diagrams here &%+((£
Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.
(http://mushin.werksicht.de/assets/emoticon/roll_eyes.png)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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First problem for you David is that Nevill would never have turned his back on Sheila. He would have taken her down in a single lunge. In reality it is very easy to confront a shooter with a rifle compared to one with a handgun and especially if the shooter is an average female.
Second difficulty is that Jeremy makes no mention of shots being heard over the telephone or that Nevill mentioned having been shot. I don't believe that is something he would have forgotten to mention.
ps nice graphics tho, pity you wasted the effort on an unsustainable theory.
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Hopefully David will explain how Sheila shot Nevill standing at the bedroom door, but the four cartridges didn't travel 6 feet forward well into the hallway and onto the stairs.
He has also said this week via a diagram that - "the position of the rifle in the photos. Is the correct and original location". Which means Sheila was not touched by the police. But then didn't answer my question on who then pulled Sheila's legs after the second shot.
David has now posted up his images so I'll respond there.
I've thought for a long time that SC took her own life against the box room door and was moved by a member(s) of the raid team who were eager to check behind the door and make safe the rifle.
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David has now posted up his images so I'll respond there.
I've thought for a long time that SC took her own life against the box room door and was moved by a member(s) of the raid team who were eager to check behind the door and make safe the rifle.
Except that would have been evidenced by a trail of blood.
Answer this question honestly Holly... Could she really have shot herself TWICE in the throat without blood being smeared over her neck, her fingers, her nightie and the rifle mechanism?
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All of which in the end proves nothing, because JB could already have been upstairs, holed up in his own bedroom, or bathroom, or toilet, biding his time until Nevill had gone downstairs to investigate any disturbance, after which he sneaked into the master bedroom to shoot June before encountering Nevill again as he came back up. Casing positions beside the bedroom door or on the landing are thus rendered useless in identifying the shooter.
When I first mooted NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs I said it doesn't narrow down the perp as there's also a JB guilty scenario. Puglove has recently highlighted this too. If it can be shown by way of expert evidence that NB sustained his facial shots coming up the stairs with the perp firing down this lends support to JB's claim of a tel call from NB.
The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. The totality of the physical evidence: bloodstaining and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support the theory NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/stairs.
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When I first mooted NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs I said it doesn't narrow down the perp as there's also a JB guilty scenario. Puglove has recently highlighted this too. If it can be shown by way of expert evidence that NB sustained his facial shots coming up the stairs with the perp firing down this lends support to JB's claim of a tel call from NB.
The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. The totality of the physical evidence: bloodstaining and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support the theory NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/stairs.
So how did the bullet casings magically appear inside the bedroom?
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Except that would have been evidenced by a trail of blood.
Would it? If SC took her life shortly before or after the police arrived circa 4am then surely by the time the raid team entered at 7.30am livor mortis would prevent further bloodstaining/spilling/trails if SC was then moved?
Answer this question honestly Holly... Could she really have shot herself TWICE in the throat without blood being smeared over her neck, her fingers, her nightie and the rifle mechanism?
I haven't seen any expert evidence for this?
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Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.
(http://mushin.werksicht.de/assets/emoticon/roll_eyes.png)
So that explains how Sheila shot Nevill from the bedroom door, but the bullet casings were not in the hallway & on the stairs.
The bullet casings actually move sideways six feet. Rather than forwards 6 feet.
Sideways, forwards, I wish you would make you're mind up. A source that the bullet casings from that rifle moves 6 feet would also be good.
It would also be good to know who pulled Sheila's legs after the second shot if the police had not touched Sheila prior to the photographs.
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So how did the bullet casings magically appear inside the bedroom?
DRH/14 was found on the landing. DRH/13 on the transition strip between landing and master bedroom. DRH/3 and 4 just inside the bedroom door which I'm assuming was wide open when the perp discharged the rifle.
Casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right from the ejection port on the rhs of the rifle. According to MF's trial testimony they can travel up to 4 feet. The casings seems to align pretty much with NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing/stairs?
As a stand alone they would probably be pretty insignficant and unreliable but as I said the totality of the physical evidence: bloodstaining, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all seem to support NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing/stairs.
I wrote to JB requesting SOC photos of the casings to check on the exact location:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
Imo the above is Mike Tesko talk and shows how poor JB's understanding of his case is. Why would the police make up the location of the casings which to some degree supports JB's innocence? DC Bird photographed every casing over the course of 7th - 9th Aug incl. SOC officer DC Hammersley testified at court the location based on his findings and recording of the casings along with DC Bird's soc photos:
DC Hammersley Trial Testimony
DRH/3
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=199
DRH/3 and 4
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=201
DRH/13 and 14
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203
I can move things around in my mind's eye and come up with the following scenarios which account for the casings:
- Perp stood in entrance of master bedroom facing out onto landing with NB stood on the landing stairs. The casings hit the right angle of the bedroom wall, near the dressing table/stool, and fall where they were found.
- Perp stood around winder stairs or main stairs and casings eject over handrail and inside bedroom door.
If we had soc photos for the casings and images of the landing, winder stairs and main stairs from various perspectives I think it would become clearer.
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Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.
(http://mushin.werksicht.de/assets/emoticon/roll_eyes.png)
I thought you were working on 3d animation 8)><( I said rudimentary as I know 3d animation is petty damn technical. It's not the sort of thing you can take yourself off and get to grips with easily.
Yes your images are largely based on my creative work and intellectual property ?>)()<
Post #1 contains my diagrams from Dec 2015:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
There's no evidence to support your diagram/theory in image 1 that casings have the sort of velocity required to ricochet around as per your white line? If you take another look at 'Farm Girl' with her Bushmaster you will see one of the casings hits the tree trunk and pretty much falls dead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc
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Would it? If SC took her life shortly before or after the police arrived circa 4am then surely by the time the raid team entered at 7.30am livor mortis would prevent further bloodstaining/spilling/trails if SC was then moved?
I haven't seen any expert evidence for this?
Actually no. Uncongealed blood was welled up in Sheila's mouth and throat and was expelled when she was moved to the morgue. Evidence being the photos taken in the bedroom versus those taken in the morgue.
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I wrote to JB requesting SOC photos of the casings to check on the exact location:
"I've done a huge piece of work on bullets and bullet cases. Those charts you sent are actual case ones (main bedroom). But they were not actually true - the police made them up. DC Hammersly the DRH accronym was not at the scene that morning 07.08.85. The fourth SOC officer was DC Henderson. He collected all the exhibits, dad was not shot or wounded upstairs at all".
Surely you can't believe that for a moment Holls? He's clearly deluded if he thinks for a moment that police intentionally misrepresented the crimescene by moving casings upstairs.
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Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.
(http://mushin.werksicht.de/assets/emoticon/roll_eyes.png)
David feedback on your diagrams:
- I recall Patti saying June was in a different position from the found position when she sustained the two gsw's to her head. As you know I contacted a pathologist who confirmed each of these gsw's rendered June incapable of voluntary movement thereafter so I will have to ask Patti exactly what she meant. If June was stood around the door handle facing out onto the landing she may have toppled forward and slid down the door into the found position? This would account for all casings June's side of the bed pertaining to her gsw's. The assumption seems to be the perp inflicted the 2 gsw's to June's head in the found position. For sure she was incapable of voluntary movement thereafter but if she was stood or even sat around the corner of the bed facing the landing then there had to have been some involuntary movement ie falling backwards, forwards or sideways. Falling forward against a moveable object eg the door might account for the found postion?
- Based on the 'Farm Girl' vid very little ricochet from casings.
- According to Dr Vanezis' trial testimony the gsw to NB's shoulder was fired from above. The average UK stair rise is 8". SC was 5'7.5" and NB 6'4". JB 6.0". So one stair will make NB and SC about the same height. Two stairs on the landing doesn't seem sufficient for the trajectory and wound track to NB's shoulder? Also the average UK stair run is about 9" and MF estimated the distance of NB's shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's to be at least 2 feet away so it doesn't appear the distance fits either?
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Surely you can't believe that for a moment Holls? He's clearly deluded if he thinks for a moment that police intentionally misrepresented the crimescene by moving casings upstairs.
JB met Mike Tesko circa 1989 and I think a lot of JB's case related views have been shaped by Mike's madness.
Here's one of many posts from Mike asserting casings were moved from the kitchen to the bedroom to "accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy":
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877
I agree JB is deluded and around this time I gave up trying to talk to him about his case.
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Actually no. Uncongealed blood was welled up in Sheila's mouth and throat and was expelled when she was moved to the morgue. Evidence being the photos taken in the bedroom versus those taken in the morgue.
I haven't seen any pathological evidence to this effect or PM photos.
I would like to see soc photos of any bloodstaining to the carpet around and under SC's body and bible other than blood drips from June.
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JB met Mike Tesko circa 1989 and I think a lot of JB's case related views have been shaped by Mike's madness.
Here's one of many posts from Mike asserting casings were moved from the kitchen to the bedroom to "accommodate prosecutions case against Jeremy":
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,986.msg29877.html#msg29877
I agree JB is deluded and around this time I gave up trying to talk to him about his case.
Have you considered that, a guilty Jeremy won't be bothered in any way, about how much crap is put out there by way of his defense. He might even find it amusing to sit and listen to what some people are willing to dream up to get him out.
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Have you considered that, a guilty Jeremy won't be bothered in any way, about how much crap is put out there by way of his defense. He might even find it amusing to sit and listen to what some people are willing to dream up to get him out.
The casings in the official found location, as per SOC officer DC Hammersley's trial testimony and DC Bird's soc photos, actually support JB's innocence.
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The casings in the official found location, as per SOC officer DC Hammersley's trial testimony and DC Bird's soc photos, actually support JB's innocence.
If all this alleged evidence of his innocence abounds, why is he still behing bars?
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If all this alleged evidence of his innocence abounds, why is he still behing bars?
I said "supports his innocence" not "evidence of his innocence".
Our judicial system at trial isn't based on absolutes: innocent or guilty. It's adversarial based on not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If a defendent ends up with an incompetent and/or negligent defence then he/she is likely to be found guilty regardless.
A total of 25 or 26 gunshots fired at WHF on 7th Aug. Any ideas why the jury didn't visit WHF along with the trial judge, expert witnesses, defence and prosecuting counsel? The Jill Dando case involved a single gunshot and all concerned visited.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1323186.stm
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I said "supports his innocence" not "evidence of his innocence".
Our judicial system at trial isn't based on absolutes: innocent or guilty. It's adversarial based on not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If a defendent ends up with an incompetent and/or negligent defence then he/she is likely to be found guilty regardless.
A total of 25 or 26 gunshots fired at WHF on 7th Aug. Any ideas why the jury didn't visit WHF along with the trial judge, expert witnesses, defence and prosecuting counsel? The Jill Dando case involved a single gunshot and all concerned visited.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1323186.stm
They would have marvelled at the idea of shooting 5 bullets at June before essaying Nevill's execution. But the happy citizenry go to implausible blockbuster movies too. It's a miracle anything works in England.
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I haven't seen any pathological evidence to this effect or PM photos.
I would like to see soc photos of any bloodstaining to the carpet around and under SC's body and bible other than blood drips from June.
The mortuary photo which I provided for you in 2014.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3929.0;attach=3856;image)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3929.msg146958#msg146958
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The mortuary photo which I provided for you in 2014.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3929.0;attach=3856;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3929.msg146958#msg146958
That's not a mortuary photo. That's a dummy from the reconstruction in a documentary.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225)
Her body was not taken away until around 11.15am. The blood would be too dry to create any smears IMO.
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That's not a mortuary photo. That's a dummy from the reconstruction in a documentary.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225)
Her body was not taken away until around 11.15am. The blood would be too dry to create any smears IMO.
If so, I'd like to know which documentary to make sure?
You've put a lot of work into those 3D images... I know how time-consuming and frustrating they can be to get right!
I think the cases could have rebounded off the wall to land as indicated by your dashed white line, or dropped straight down as Holly said. There's no way of knowing exactly where they'd finish up.
The problem is that the female model could be replaced by Jeremy Bamber. Two bullets fired into Nevill's jaw while he was in bed, then a hurried dash to the door and stairs, forcing his way past the perp who followed up with the other two shots to his shoulder and elbow from the position in your picture...
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That's not a mortuary photo. That's a dummy from the reconstruction in a documentary.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg359225.html#msg359225)
Her body was not taken away until around 11.15am. The blood would be too dry to create any smears IMO.
I think people can see which was Sheila and which was an actress. The photos below all depict actress Joceline Hamilton.
The dramatisation of the murders was produced in 2003 as a TV presentation for the True Crimes series.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5977.0;attach=4782;image)
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5977.0;attach=4784;image)
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5977.0;attach=4788;image)
ps if you still need a clue David... Look at the nightie!!
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David might also be interested in, "Mike Tesko tries to fool everyone again with false photo of Sheila".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5977.msg217126#msg217126
Note to Holly. I thought you would have realised by now how much total garbage comes out of the blue forum!!
The image I have posted in #153 above is real and was taken in the mortuary.
The image below was taken in the master bedroom prior to her removal to the mortuary.
(https://i.imgur.com/njxKPGZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high)
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David might also be interested in, "Mike Tesko tries to fool everyone again with false photo of Sheila".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5977.msg217126#msg217126
Note to Holly. I thought you would have realised by now how much total garbage comes out of the blue forum!!
The image I have posted in #153 above is real and was taken in the mortuary.
The image below was taken in the master bedroom prior to her removal to the mortuary.
(https://i.imgur.com/njxKPGZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high)
I take it you mean the one taken AFTER Sheila and June had been 'removed', not yet dead, into another bedroom, furnished with brown MFI furniture, to be photographed, then repositioned back into the master bedroom to die and be photographed again?
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I take it you mean the one taken AFTER Sheila and June had been 'removed', not yet dead, into another bedroom, furnished with brown MFI furniture, to be photographed, then repositioned back into the master bedroom to die and be photographed again?
@)(++(* 8@??)( absolutely 8((()*/
...there's nought flies on you April!
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I have no idea whether the photo above was taken at PM or not but as far as I can see the same image features in CTSB at about 31.50 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMRWx4uI3OM
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I have no idea whether the photo above was taken at PM or not but as far as I can see the same image features in CTSB at about 31.50 in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMRWx4uI3OM
That's correct Holly, Crimes that shook Britain used both original stills shots from the mortuary and video dramatisation from the True Crime series.
Surely you don't honestly believe the documentary maker would have shown a still claiming it to have been that taken hours after her death if it was nothing more than a depiction?
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They would have marvelled at the idea of shooting 5 bullets at June before essaying Nevill's execution. But the happy citizenry go to implausible blockbuster movies too. It's a miracle anything works in England.
To make matters worse it is not even known for sure whether June sustained 5 gsw's to her body or 6.
8 casings June side's of the bed (floor and bed). 2 around the entrance (DRH/3 and 4). 1 on the transition strip (DRH/13). 1 on the landing (DRH/14). Total 12.
At trial, through a process of elimination, MF agreed with Ed Lawson for the defence that June sustained a 6th gsw to her body which caused a bruise only around her chest. Spent bullet DRH/5 may account for this.
Others argue DRH/5 pertains to a graze only wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest. If this is the case then there's one too many casings and this is where the theories about a stovepipe jam and an officer carrying on the sole of his shoe from the kitchen come from.
The whole thing is madness. Every detail counts. And yet here we are almost 32 years on not knowing!
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To make matters worse it is not even known for sure whether June sustained 5 gsw's to her body or 6.
8 casings June side's of the bed (floor and bed). 2 around the entrance (DRH/3 and 4). 1 on the transition strip (DRH/13). 1 on the landing (DRH/14). Total 12.
At trial, through a process of elimination, MF agreed with Ed Lawson for the defence that June sustained a 6th gsw to her body which caused a bruise only around her chest. Spent bullet DRH/5 may account for this.
Others argue DRH/5 pertains to a graze only wound NB sustained to his elbow/chest. If this is the case then there's one too many casings and this is where the theories about a stovepipe jam and an officer carrying on the sole of his shoe from the kitchen come from.
The whole thing is madness. Every detail counts. And yet here we are almost 32 years on not knowing!
Some details need never be known, all it requires is a sufficiency of evidence.
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That's correct Holly, Crimes that shook Britain used both original stills shots from the mortuary and video dramatisation from the True Crime series.
Surely you don't honestly believe the documentary maker would have shown a still claiming it to have been that taken hours after her death if it was nothing more than a depiction?
I've no real idea what goes into such a prog.
John going back to how we got onto this I think you said blood welled up in SC's mouth and upon removal to the morgue it was expelled as per the image above? This would mean SC wasn't moved substantially post gsw's by either JB or raid team?
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I've no real idea what goes into such a prog.
John going back to how we got onto this I think you said blood welled up in SC's mouth and upon removal to the morgue it was expelled as per the image above? This would mean SC wasn't moved substantially post gsw's by either JB or raid team?
The only movement that I can see was that her head was lifted up thus the mirror image gsw's on her neck.
Sheila may have been rendered unconscious from the two wounds but not actually expired for several hours.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bhhl_YBOW_Q/hqdefault.jpg)
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If so, I'd like to know which documentary to make sure?
You've put a lot of work into those 3D images... I know how time-consuming and frustrating they can be to get right!
I think the cases could have rebounded off the wall to land as indicated by your dashed white line, or dropped straight down as Holly said. There's no way of knowing exactly where they'd finish up.
The problem is that the female model could be replaced by Jeremy Bamber. Two bullets fired into Nevill's jaw while he was in bed, then a hurried dash to the door and stairs, forcing his way past the perp who followed up with the other two shots to his shoulder and elbow from the position in your picture...
The images might be time-consuming and frustrating but so was all the effort that went into my diagram from 2015 which it appears David has 'copied'!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
It appears there are many factors affecting the final location including ricochet but I can't see how they would be capable of ricocheting to the degree David has suggested. @ about 4.40 in 'Farm Girl' lets off 3 shots with the 3rd hitting the trunk and landing about a foot away? The bullets used are .223.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc
I agree the model could be replaced by JB but the idea NB was shot in the bedroom just doesn't stack up imo. I pointed out a long while ago JB could have entered via the box room with NB already out of the master bedroom perhaps investigating noises.
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The images might be time-consuming and frustrating but so was all the effort that went into my diagram from 2015 which it appears David has 'copied'!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
It appears there are many factors affecting the final location including ricochet but I can't see how they would be capable of ricocheting to the degree David has suggested. @ about 4.40 in 'Farm Girl' lets off 3 shots with the 3rd hitting the trunk and landing about a foot away? The bullets used are .223.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc
I agree the model could be replaced by JB but the idea NB was shot in the bedroom just doesn't stack up imo. I pointed out a long while ago JB could have entered via the box room with NB already out of the master bedroom perhaps investigating noises.
Both Nevill and June were shot initially in the master bedroom, June being shot where she lay in bed and Nevill as he attempted to approach the gunman. The forensics bear this out Holly. The blood and bullets/casings on the bed, June's final position slumped between her bed and the bedroom door and the position where the remaining empty casings fell. No other scenario fits with the facts.
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You've put a lot of work into those 3D images... I know how time-consuming and frustrating they can be to get right!
Thanks.
Makes a change from all those gifs. don't you think?
The problem is that the female model could be replaced by Jeremy Bamber. Two bullets fired into Nevill's jaw while he was in bed, then a hurried dash to the door and stairs, forcing his way past the perp who followed up with the other two shots to his shoulder and elbow from the position in your picture...
That becomes problematic when you bring June into the equation. I will demonstrate later with more uploads.
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Both Nevill and June were shot initially in the master bedroom, June being shot where she lay in bed and Nevill as he attempted to approach the gunman. The forensics bear this out Holly. The blood and bullets/casings on the bed, June's final position slumped between her bed and the bedroom door and the position of the remaining empty casings fell. No other scenario fits with the facts.
John on what basis do you think NB sustained his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw in the master bedroom?
The only expert to actually visit WHF was Dr Vanezis. He said he was not aware of the position of cartridges or where NB had been shot. He said his visit on 08.08.85 was an 'of interest' cursory search.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
In the absence of appropriate experts examining the soc as a multi-disciplinary team: pathologist, ballistics and blood pattern analyst then surely it is open to interpretation?
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Thanks.
Makes a change from all those gifs. don't you think?
That becomes problematic when you bring June into the equation. I will demonstrate later with more uploads.
I don't see how you can eliminate JB? JB enters twins room and shoots each at least once carrying ammo on his person to reload. He enters the master bedroom via the box room with 9 or 10 rounds in the mag. Meanwhile NB hears a noise and has left the master bedroom to investigate. JB realising NB has gone panics and fires off either 5 or 6 rounds at June which all hit her body. NB then appears on the landing stairs and JB fires out from the bedroom (lip and jaw). NB turns and retreats downstairs. JB follows and inflicts the shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's whilst NB is on the main stairs. Imo this doesn't sound very plausible as why would JB unleash a volley of bullets at June and not be on the hunt for NB but it's not impossible. Imo all it can ever do with input from experts is show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs. This lends support to JB's claims that NB had recently called him [from the kitchen] since he was approaching the master bedroom from the landing and sustained his facial gsw's facing into the bedroom.
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John on what basis do you think NB sustained his lip, jaw, shoulder and elbow/chest gsw in the master bedroom?
The only expert to actually visit WHF was Dr Vanezis. He said he was not aware of the position of cartridges or where NB had been shot. He said his visit on 08.08.85 was an 'of interest' cursory search.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742
In the absence of appropriate experts examining the soc as a multi-disciplinary team: pathologist, ballistics and blood pattern analyst then surely it is open to interpretation?
First off we can discount the three shots to the top of the head which were fatal and almost certainly occurred in the kitchen. I think we can discount him being fatally wounded elsewhere and carried into the kitchen.
That leaves the remaining five shots, the casings from which were found mostly in the master bedroom with one being found on the main .staircase. One doesn't require to be called Sherlock to see that those five shots were delivered first and foremost and mainly in the master bedroom. Certainly there might have been some empty shells trodden on by police and moved but the overall picture is very clear.
Unless there was a conspiracy of mammoth proportion which I seriously doubt, the position of the bullets and empty casings must be taken to be true and accurate thus interpretation is not difficult. Crimescenes are like Rembrandt paintings, the context is not immediately discernible but after a while all becomes clear.
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Four in the kitchen and four upstairs, John. 8((()*/
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I don't see how you can eliminate JB? JB enters twins room and shoots each at least once carrying ammo on his person to reload. He enters the master bedroom via the box room with 9 or 10 rounds in the mag. Meanwhile NB hears a noise and has left the master bedroom to investigate. JB realising NB has gone panics and fires off either 5 or 6 rounds at June which all hit her body. NB then appears on the landing stairs and JB fires out from the bedroom (lip and jaw). NB turns and retreats downstairs. JB follows and inflicts the shoulder and elbow/chest gsw's whilst NB is on the main stairs. Imo this doesn't sound very plausible
I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.
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I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.
That is not possible unless Jeremy one day confesses, which cannot be ruled out.
For example how can we ever know in what order the family were shot, even though it makes most sense to go to the master bedroom first and open fire, we will never know for sure.
What we do know for sure about the crime scene, is that the perpetrator could not possibly be Sheila.
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First off we can discount the three shots to the top of the head which were fatal and almost certainly occurred in the kitchen. I think we can discount him being fatally wounded elsewhere and carried into the kitchen.
That leaves the remaining five shots, the casings from which were found mostly in the master bedroom with one being found on the main .staircase. One doesn't require to be called Sherlock to see that those five shots were delivered first and foremost and mainly in the master bedroom. Certainly there might have been some empty shells trodden on by police and moved but the overall picture is very clear.
Unless there was a conspiracy of mammoth proportion which I seriously doubt, the position of the bullets and empty casings must be taken to be true and accurate thus interpretation is not difficult. Crimescenes are like Rembrandt paintings, the context is not immediately discernible but after a while all becomes clear.
I don't see a mammoth conspiracy. I see an incompetent and negligent defence.
I prefer the analogy of a jigsaw where a few pieces are missing and a few forced into the wrong position!
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I agree. Neither are the other alternate senario's very plausible. Neville falling asleep downstairs or the perpetrator standing on the bed. But the aim is to establish what happened not just eliminate JB.
But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us. All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB.
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That is not possible unless Jeremy one day confesses, which cannot be ruled out.
For example how can we ever know in what order the family were shot, even though it makes most sense to go to the master bedroom first and open fire, we will never know for sure.
What we do know for sure about the crime scene, is that the perpetrator could not possibly be Sheila.
If this was true the CCRC would not have referred the case to the COA based on the blood flake and silencer.
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If this was true the CCRC would not have referred the case to the COA based on the blood flake and silencer.
Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.
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But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us. All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB.
Indeed, But we have to make the most of what we have left and available to us.
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Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.
I have yet to see a case where a direct appeal released a person convicted of murder, bar Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito. Appeal courts exist to sanctify verdicts by juries and sometimes judge alone trials. This can be found by direct observation, not by logical process. This is true in America England Canada Australia and New Zealand.
Since we all know many people have been released by further action, the conclusion is that direct appeals are the worst way to establish facts and crime reconstructions.
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I have yet to see a case where a direct appeal released a person convicted of murder, bar Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito. Appeal courts exist to sanctify verdicts by juries and sometimes judge alone trials. This can be found by direct observation, not by logical process. This is true in America England Canada Australia and New Zealand.
Since we all know many people have been released by further action, the conclusion is that direct appeals are the worst way to establish facts and crime reconstructions.
Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.
There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.
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Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.
There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.
Worth a thread, but in New Zealand murder cases 8 direct appeals of 6 innocent man were denied.
Walter Bolton, 1 Hanged
Arthur Thomas , 2 exonerated and released, did 9 years
David Wayne Tamihere, 1, did 22 years but imminent court action is proving he was framed by prosecution and Witness C
Teina Pora, 2 exonerated and compensated.
David Bain, 1, found not guilty after 13 years in prison, and disgracefully treated by John Key and Amy Adams, justice minister, Proved innocent by simple science but not compensated. Banned here member Nostalgia-NZ was active.
Mark Lundy. 1. His next appeal will soon result in a disgraceful shambles involving police, prosecution, judges and parliament.
Count those up, 8 direct appeals denied and written up with arch mendacity by English style private club frequenting appeal judges.
I know what I am talking about.
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But even if world experts assessed the soc on 7th Aug there are aspects that can never be known to anyone other than those who are no longer with us. All we can ever hope to prove in this regard is that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs which in turns lends support to JB's claim of a call from JB.
Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?
Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).
8((()*/
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Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?
Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).
8((()*/
If he did get out of bed to check why a dog was perhaps barking, he didn't get very far as he was shot 4 times in the same room his bed was.
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If he did get out of bed to check why a dog was perhaps barking, he didn't get very far as he was shot 4 times in the same room his bed was.
adam:
Complete the narrative.
He was shot twice in the mouth, then his elbow was shattered and his shoulder disabled.
What happened downstairs after this??
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adam:
Complete the narrative.
He was shot twice in the mouth, then his elbow was shattered and his shoulder disabled.
What happened downstairs after this??
The evidence shows there was a huge kitchen fight.
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Yes and we know what happened next, the court of appeal threw each and every point out in a damning verdict.
The CoA has a long history of calling it wrong over long running MoJ's. JB's case is no different in this respect:
This is what was said about other MoJ's at first and second appeal hearings:
Stefan Kizsko
"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory. The appeal is dismissed". Lord Justice Bridge.
Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Sally Clarke
"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."
Guildford Four
"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".
"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.
Birmingham 6
"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".
"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory. The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".
Sam Hallam
"In 2007 there was a failed appeal with the judges holding that the evidence of the witnesses could still be relied upon".
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Indeed, But we have to make the most of what we have left and available to us.
Agreed but I can't see any evidence to date that JB's defence has made the most of what is left and available and/or looking at new avenues?
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Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.
There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.
Other than the blood/silencer 'evidence' the case against JB is weak at best.
The best advocates for MoJ's are family members. In JB's case obviously he lacks this support. Instead the void has been filled by cranks like Mike Tesko who continues to be an unmitigated disaster for JB.
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Or does it just lend support to NB being out of the bedroom when Bamber burst in and started shooting?
Adam, if you're out there, could you do one of your epic lists? Reasons why Nevill may have got out of bed? (eg. having a wee, wanting a drink, checking out why Bruce was barking...etc).
8((()*/
If you were a prosecutor I guess you would argue as you have ie NB was already out of the bedroom for whatever reason(s). If you were defence then I guess you would argue as I have. At trial and the 2002 appeal hearing there appears to have been an assumption by all parties that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the master bedroom therefore how could he have called JB when a) his facial gsw's caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and no blood was found on the phone and b) the pathological evidence shows these injuries rendered him incapable of purposeful speech.
It is clear from trial testimony: Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher that JB's defence were completely incompetent and negligent in this regard: insufficient attention to written reports produced by expert witnesses, not visiting the soc, poor cross-examination of expert witnesses.
I've always said if expert evidence can show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs it doesn't narrow down the perp but it does allow the defence to argue the phone call based on a plausible narrative.
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If you were a prosecutor I guess you would argue as you have ie NB was already out of the bedroom for whatever reason(s). If you were defence then I guess you would argue as I have. At trial and the 2002 appeal hearing there appears to have been an assumption by all parties that NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the master bedroom therefore how could he have called JB when a) his facial gsw's caused heavy blood loss internally and externally and no blood was found on the phone and b) the pathological evidence shows these injuries rendered him incapable of purposeful speech.
It is clear from trial testimony: Dr Vanezis and Malcolm Fletcher that JB's defence were completely incompetent and negligent in this regard: insufficient attention to written reports produced by expert witnesses, not visiting the soc, poor cross-examination of expert witnesses.
I've always said if expert evidence can show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing/main stairs it doesn't narrow down the perp but it does allow the defence to argue the phone call based on a plausible narrative.
The trouble is the casings were in the bedroom.
David said casings travel 6 feet forward which further highlighted Nevill was shot while in the bedroom. Although he then posted a diagram showing the casings travelling sideways.
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The trouble is the casings were in the bedroom.
David said casings travel 6 feet forward which further highlighted Nevill was shot while in the bedroom. Although he then posted a diagram showing the casings travelling sideways.
The location of the casings are consistent with NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs. The direction of the barrel and position of the casing ejection port upon discharge largely determine the location of casings.
MF said casings travel up to 4 feet.
I think David was trying to account for the casings that pertain to June's 2 head gsw's. If these gsw's were inflicted in the found position then the distance of these shots and wound tracks would put the casings on the landing near the handrail. This suggests the perp held the rifle at an unusual angle or June was in a different position from the found position. Perhaps she was sitting against the door and fell sideways.
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The location of the casings are consistent with NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs/main stairs. The direction of the barrel and position of the casing ejection port upon discharge largely determine the location of casings.
MF said casings travel up to 4 feet.
I think David was trying to account for the casings that pertain to June's 2 head gsw's. If these gsw's were inflicted in the found position then the distance of these shots and wound tracks would put the casings on the landing near the handrail. This suggests the perp held the rifle at an unusual angle or June was in a different position from the found position. Perhaps she was sitting against the door and fell sideways.
I think that the blood smears on the door prove that June was sitting, then slid sideways onto the floor, Holl.
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Smears on the door?... haven't seen or read about those!
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Smears on the door?... haven't seen or read about those!
You can see them on the black and white image of June (sorry, I don't know how to access it).
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You can see them on the black and white image of June (sorry, I don't know how to access it).
Must be on blue, as I've only seen the colour one, unless Holly knows anything different.
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If this was true the CCRC would not have referred the case to the COA based on the blood flake and silencer.
The CCRC must consider whether on the balance of probabilities that a conviction might be unsafe. That does not however imply necessarily that the convicted person is innocent.
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Didn't Barry George and Sion Jenkins get murder convictions overturned ? There must be loads of less famous cases as well.
There is just too much incriminating evidence against Bamber, who is the only alive suspect. Despite 32 years of trying.
Barry George yes, however, the High Court ruled that there was no clear evidence of innocence so he was denied compo. I believe the last jury failed to agree a verdict in the Jenkins trial and the CPS decided to call it a day, he too was denied compo for the same reason.
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Is this the photo you are referring to Holly with the blood smears on the bottom of the door?
If you want to see it in black and white click on link. http://i.imgur.com/qgFI40g.jpg
(http://i.imgur.com/ahIJaV3.jpg)
If anyone wants to see a wider shot of the victim click on the link below.
Warning!! Explicit image.
http://i.imgur.com/RHTuZth.jpg
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It was puglove, not Holly, who was referring to a black and white photo showing smears on the door, but I don't see any in that colour photo or on the larger one converted to greyscale with only the eiderdown and two casings near the cupboard
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The CCRC must consider whether on the balance of probabilities that a conviction might be unsafe. That does not however imply necessarily that the convicted person is innocent.
In 2001/02 the CCRC referred to the CoA based on the blood/silencer evidence only. My understanding is that once a case is referred to the CoA other points can be added that alone or collectively would not have been strong enough for a referral. In JB's case if other strong evidence existed then why would the CCRC have referred? Surely they could just dismiss anything that might undermine the blood/silencer and fall back on other strong evidence if any such evidence existed?
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Barry George yes, however, the High Court ruled that there was no clear evidence of innocence so he was denied compo. I believe the last jury failed to agree a verdict in the Jenkins trial and the CPS decided to call it a day, he too was denied compo for the same reason.
I don't know enough about these case to have any particular view on them, but it seems odd to me that the judicial system seems to be saying we're going to quash your conviction because it might be unsafe but you're not entitled to financial compensation for loss of liberty. I thought convictions were quashed mainly on the basis of some new evidence coming to light that had jurors known about at trial might have altered their verdicts. If so I am struggling to see why compensation should be denied &%+((£
It appears Sam Hallam is fighting for compensation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hallam
I'm just not getting this. Why are convictions being quashed if the courts are so uncertain to the extent compensation is denied?
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Is this the photo you are referring to Holly with the blood smears on the bottom of the door?
If you want to see it in black and white click on link. http://i.imgur.com/qgFI40g.jpg
(http://i.imgur.com/ahIJaV3.jpg)
If anyone wants to see a wider shot of the victim click on the link below.
Warning!! Explicit image.
http://i.imgur.com/RHTuZth.jpg
Thanks John 8((()*/ I don't usually bother with the 'like' thing but I'm going to 'like' you for this 8)-)))
As far as I can recall first time I've seen this image. It will assist in understading DC Hammersley's trial testimony which explains in detail the location of casings June's side of the bed but is difficult to visualise without an image.
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It was puglove, not Holly, who was referring to a black and white photo showing smears on the door, but I don't see any in that colour photo or on the larger one converted to greyscale with only the eiderdown and two casings near the cupboard
I think I can see blood smears? About a foot from the bottom of the door near the edge? And in the panel and just below it?
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I think I can see blood smears? About a foot from the bottom of the door near the edge? And in the panel and just below it?
Aaah yes, now I see very faint ones near the door edge and in the panel at the extreme right (unless it's a reflection). So what does this mean... that June was lying down on her right side facing the door and then turned over onto her back by herself, or by the perp to deliver the final two head shots?
Also three casings, two together below the large cupboard and one on the eiderdown/duvet cover, but no others, so the remaining ones must be underneath both of them.
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Aaah yes, now I see very faint ones near the door edge and in the panel at the extreme right (unless it's a reflection). So what does this mean... that June was lying down on her right side facing the door and then turned over onto her back by herself, or by the perp to deliver the final two head shots?
Also three casings, two together below the large cupboard and one on the eiderdown/duvet cover, but no others, so the remaining ones must be underneath both of them.
I think I owe Scipio an apology as he said there was two DRH/7's and I argued there was only one but it seems I was wrong!
DC Hammersley's trial testimony (below) helps to locate the casings along with the image above and casing layout diagram.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=201
DRH/6 - on quilt
DRH/7 - under wardrobe
DRH/7 - under wardrobe
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=203
DRH/8 - on bed
DRH/10 - on/near flex?
DRH/11 - under quilt?
DRH/12 - on floor?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=219
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
DRH/43 - under wardrobe
I'm a bit puzzled by June's found position.
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It was puglove, not Holly, who was referring to a black and white photo showing smears on the door, but I don't see any in that colour photo or on the larger one converted to greyscale with only the eiderdown and two casings near the cupboard
So it was, imagine getting puglove and Holly mixed up...must be the heat.
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So it was, imagine getting puglove and Holly mixed up...must be the heat.
Easy mistake when we're both Top Totty 8((()*/
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Easy mistake when we're both Top Totty 8((()*/
Ho ho!! That's the truth!! %£&)**#
Anyhoo. Two things. The black and white image of June, that shows the blood smears on the door, is on blue. I remember discussing it, when the blue forum was interesting and informative. Before clappedout got thrown off a McCann forum for rudeness and made her ghastly nest on blue.
AND.....has Roch pissed or got off the pot yet? Or is he still teasing everyone? With something that doesn't exist?
Plus ca change.
?>)()<
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Ho ho!! That's the truth!! %£&)**#
Anyhoo. Two things. The black and white image of June, that shows the blood smears on the door, is on blue. I remember discussing it, when the blue forum was interesting and informative. Before clappedout got thrown off a McCann forum for rudeness and made her ghastly nest on blue.
AND.....has Roch pissed or got off the pot yet? Or is he still teasing everyone? With something that doesn't exist?
Plus ca change.
?>)()<
Roch. I know that you look over here.
What is it that proves Sheila was responsible?
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Roch. I know that you look over here.
What is it that proves Sheila was responsible?
20 years down the line, it's all gone quiet on the western front, clappedout and troods are dead, Bamber is playing Happy Families with Mick Philpott, Mike Tesko's anklet is rubbing red-raw.
Karma!!
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20 years down the line, it's all gone quiet on the western front, clappedout and troods are dead, Bamber is playing Happy Families with Mick Philpott, Mike Tesko's anklet is rubbing red-raw.
Karma!!
It's all going well. There's a problem at the farm. Love you lots, Honey.
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It's all going well. There's a problem at the farm. Love you lots, Honey.
"Go back to bed, everything will be alright in the morning!" ?{)(**
*thinks*... Like hell it will, a month of misery to suffer before I spill the beans. 8(8-))
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Roch. I know that you look over here.
What is it that proves Sheila was responsible?
Wading through mad mike's verbal diarrhoea is enough to turn anyone's mind... to mush.
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Wading through mad mike's verbal diarrhoea is enough to turn anyone's mind... to mush.
A gold star -for effort- winging it's way to you 8)--))
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Wading through mad mike's verbal diarrhoea is enough to turn anyone's mind... to mush.
Well, I blame Nelly. He's the one daft enough toupee for Mike's madness.
Just think how many hedgehogs that money would save. ?8)@)-)
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Ho ho!! That's the truth!! %£&)**#
Anyhoo. Two things. The black and white image of June, that shows the blood smears on the door, is on blue. I remember discussing it, when the blue forum was interesting and informative. Before clappedout got thrown off a McCann forum for rudeness and made her ghastly nest on blue.
AND.....has Roch pissed or got off the pot yet? Or is he still teasing everyone? With something that doesn't exist?
Plus ca change.
?>)()<
Yes, thanks for that puglove 8((()*/ I obviously didn't spend enough time ferreting around in the archives during my Blue days.
What position was June in when she sustained the 2 gsw's to her head?
Roch has gone all cryptic over his stance change from 50/50 to 100%.
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Well, I blame Nelly. He's the one daft enough toupee for Mike's madness.
Just think how many hedgehogs that money would save. ?8)@)-)
I saw what you did there!
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David have you thought any more about June's position when she sustained the two gsw's to her head? There's no need for me to keep reposting the graphic image we are all familiar with. I have lined up the rifle against the door, ie barrel over June and pointing out onto the landing, and then rotated it around based on the wound tracks and I can only get the casings on the landing? I'm sorry but your casing ricochet just doesn't work as there's no evidence they have the sort of velocity required to travel the distance. The 'Farm Girl' vid shows the sort of ricochet involved. Although the casings are significantly larger they are heavier too with the inevitable drag so the net effect should be about the same. They only require enough energy to eject them quickly enough to cycle a new round.
Given June was incapable of voluntary movement after sustaining either gsw to the head I'm struggling with any involuntary movement and casings. If she was sat up against the door when shot the the flight of the casings would be impeded by the door and they would ricochet back and land around her hand near her waist? I can accept 1 could do somthing very random but not two. Research shows for a variety of reasons 25% go astray so at least one should be where anticipated based on the ejection pattern. This is borne out by the casings that pertain to SC unless she was moved significantly.
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Roch. I know that you look over here.
What is it that proves Sheila was responsible?
Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.
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Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.
Wishful thinking and an absolute load of twaddle as usual.
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Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.
As far as I can see the only thing that appears to have been 'hidden' was the bible. Other than this I blame the lawyers for not appreciating the complexity of the case and seeking the right expertise.
Forensic science was just coming into its own in the 80's and it seems there was a real mis-match between police training and also the quality of expert evidence.
Anyway send my regards to Roch. I did speak briefly with him once by phone and he does have quite a sexy Geordie accent. I did associate Northern men with rough accents and grubby hands so it was nice to part dispel the myth!
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The words sexy and Geordie should never ever appear in the same sentence. They're always on about bowats cummin in and havin' fishies on a little dishies!
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Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.
We shouldn't expect anything less from blue. Tesko has them all brainwashed by now!
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We shouldn't expect anything less from blue. Tesko has them all brainwashed by now!
With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.
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With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.
Most certainly 8((()*/
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David have you thought any more about June's position when she sustained the two gsw's to her head? There's no need for me to keep reposting the graphic image we are all familiar with. I have lined up the rifle against the door, ie barrel over June and pointing out onto the landing, and then rotated it around based on the wound tracks and I can only get the casings on the landing? I'm sorry but your casing ricochet just doesn't work as there's no evidence they have the sort of velocity required to travel the distance. The 'Farm Girl' vid shows the sort of ricochet involved. Although the casings are significantly larger they are heavier too with the inevitable drag so the net effect should be about the same. They only require enough energy to eject them quickly enough to cycle a new round.
Given June was incapable of voluntary movement after sustaining either gsw to the head I'm struggling with any involuntary movement and casings. If she was sat up against the door when shot the the flight of the casings would be impeded by the door and they would ricochet back and land around her hand near her waist? I can accept 1 could do somthing very random but not two. Research shows for a variety of reasons 25% go astray so at least one should be where anticipated based on the ejection pattern. This is borne out by the casings that pertain to SC unless she was moved significantly.
Shell casings bounce/ricochet. Its document in forensic literature. That farm girl video involves a much higher caliber weapon and shell casings will weight allot more thus they wont be going far.
"Figure 12.6 shows the somewhat common example of paint adhering to the mouth of a
cartridge casing fired, extracted, and ejected from a gun that was in close proximity to a wall
inside a house. While the positioning of the gun is approximate at best, this conclusion may
be critical to a shooting reconstruction.
In many cases, the crux of a dispute may be differing witness statements about whether
the shooter and gun were in a confined, indoor painted entranceway or just outside the door
on an open patio. The casing itself may have bounced outside, but this type of transfer could
have been accomplished only in association with the force of ejection. Merely tossing the casing
against the wall would not have allowed Locard’s Exchange Principle to take effect."
Michael G. Haag, Lucien C. Haag Shooting Incident Reconstruction, Second Edition
"Test firing and cartridge case location analysis showed that what actually must have
happened is that four shots were fired from the officer’s original position and the remaining
three shots were fired from the opposite side of the vehicle. The fired cartridge cases from
the second position undoubtedly landed on the rooftop of the vehicle and then bounced off
onto the street in the same area as the cartridge cases from the first position."
Practical Analysis and Reconstruction of Shooting Incidents Edward E. Hueske
"However, other reconstructionists understanding the effects of weapon manipulation,
shooter movement, bounce factors, and other elements, began to list and accommodate for some
of them. For example, Edward Hueske has said that reconstruction of an equivalent shooting
environment should take into account the following eight variables: weapon design, weapon condition,
ammunition type, position weapon was held when fired, movement of weapon during firing, how tightly the
weapon was held during firing, type of terrain where shooting occurred, and the presence of
obstacles."
FIRED CARTRIDGE CASE EJECTION PATTERNS FROM SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARMS
Force Science Institute and Minnesota State University, Mankato, MN, USA.
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With exception of our dear beloved APRIL, Caroline and Adam, don't forget.
Awww! xxxx
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Wishful thinking and an absolute load of twaddle as usual.
Unfortunately there is no source regarding Ainsley being brought in to hide evidence.
Roch said it's "not his job to speculate why", Ainsley was brought in & agreed to hide evidence which showed Sheila was the killer.
Guess he shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place then.
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Shell casings bounce/ricochet. Its document in forensic literature. That farm girl video involves a much higher caliber weapon and shell casings will weight allot more thus they wont be going far.
"Figure 12.6 shows the somewhat common example of paint adhering to the mouth of a
cartridge casing fired, extracted, and ejected from a gun that was in close proximity to a wall
inside a house. While the positioning of the gun is approximate at best, this conclusion may
be critical to a shooting reconstruction.
In many cases, the crux of a dispute may be differing witness statements about whether
the shooter and gun were in a confined, indoor painted entranceway or just outside the door
on an open patio. The casing itself may have bounced outside, but this type of transfer could
have been accomplished only in association with the force of ejection. Merely tossing the casing
against the wall would not have allowed Locard’s Exchange Principle to take effect."
Michael G. Haag, Lucien C. Haag Shooting Incident Reconstruction, Second Edition
"Test firing and cartridge case location analysis showed that what actually must have
happened is that four shots were fired from the officer’s original position and the remaining
three shots were fired from the opposite side of the vehicle. The fired cartridge cases from
the second position undoubtedly landed on the rooftop of the vehicle and then bounced off
onto the street in the same area as the cartridge cases from the first position."
Practical Analysis and Reconstruction of Shooting Incidents Edward E. Hueske
"However, other reconstructionists understanding the effects of weapon manipulation,
shooter movement, bounce factors, and other elements, began to list and accommodate for some
of them. For example, Edward Hueske has said that reconstruction of an equivalent shooting
environment should take into account the following eight variables: weapon design, weapon condition,
ammunition type, position weapon was held when fired, movement of weapon during firing, how tightly the
weapon was held during firing, type of terrain where shooting occurred, and the presence of
obstacles."
FIRED CARTRIDGE CASE EJECTION PATTERNS FROM SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARMS
Force Science Institute and Minnesota State University, Mankato, MN, USA.
I appreciate if an object impedes the flight of an ejected casing it has the potential to cause the casing
to ricochet off the object and alter the normal casing ejection pattern. But I don't believe the poetntial for ricochet is as great as that depicted in your diagram. MF's estimate of 4' max is based on an unimpeded flight. Your diagram has the ejected casing travelling a few inches based on the normal pattern then ricocheting against the wall and travelling a further 3' to 4' in the opposite direction. I think you will find hitting the wall will remove all the energy and any ricochet will amount to a few inches max?
The rifle in the 'Farm Girl' vid, Bushmaster, uses .223. The Anshutz .22. The ejection mechanism on the Bushmaster will need to deliver more force to eject the casing due to the size and weight of the .223. However any energy remaining for free flight will be similar due to the difference in weight? The ejction mechanism will deliever proportionate force to eject the casing and any remaining energy for free flight will surely be similar?
The casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right. If we consider June's found position with the top of her head in a Northerly direction. Based on the wound tracks of the gsw's to her head the casings would be expected in a NE postion on the landing with nothing to impede the flight. DRH/3 and 4 are in an Easterly postion?
Its a pity we can't see how the casings land in this vid but we can see they definitely travel in a Northerly direction not Easterly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
If June came face-to-face with the perp ie June facing out onto the landing and the perp facing into the bedroom with June sustaining the gsw's to her head in this position what would happen to her body in terms of involuntary movement and possibly falling against a moving object ie the door? Bearing in mind also MF estimated the gsw above the ear to have been fired when the rifle was more than a foot away and the gsw between the eyes less than a foot away.
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If June had already collapsed on the floor by the door and the rifle was pointing downwards at her head to deliver the final two shots with the perp standing in the doorway/landing area, then the casings were probably cushioned on impact with the carpet and came to rest as DRH/13 and 14 as noted on the casing layout diagram - "June second episode". I don't know why this still hasn't registered with you, Holly!
Two more Anschutz 520/525 videos, neither of which are much use in estimating exactly where or what distance the casings eject to. You can try to reduce the speed to .25x by clicking on the gear icon, but for me it made no difference. The 520 is almost identical to the 525, just a slightly earlier version, I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8)
Parli Italiano, Holly Goodheadio?...
https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s (https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s)
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If June had already collapsed on the floor by the door and the rifle was pointing downwards at her head to deliver the final two shots with the perp standing in the doorway/landing area, then the casings were probably cushioned on impact with the carpet and came to rest as DRH/13 and 14 as noted on the casing layout diagram - "June second episode". I don't know why this still hasn't registered with you, Holly!
Two more Anschutz 520/525 videos, neither of which are much use in estimating exactly where or what distance the casings eject to. You can try to reduce the speed to .25x by clicking on the gear icon, but for me it made no difference. The 520 is almost identical to the 525, just a slightly earlier version, I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtardPylgL8)
Parli Italiano, Holly Goodheadio?...
https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s (https://youtu.be/XMZFRt0eEyw?t=24m54s)
Thanks but I can't even see them eject. I guess due to the fact they are so small and fast.
Casings eject forwards, upwards and to the right. DRH/13 is only slightly above June's head so no I don't see this at all. DRH/14 would need to take a sharp left turn. If it came to rest on carpet as it had run out of steam why would it then bounce down the stairs and come to rest against the skirting board?
If you believe the casing layout diagram to be accurate and reliable then you surely must agree that DRH/5 pertains to a graze wound June sustained to her chest unrelated to any other wound? How did DRH/5 end up in the found position? This would also mean a total of 8 casings pertain to June: 7 entry gsw's and 1 graze gsw. Which 4 casings do you think pertain to NB's upstairs gsw's?
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Thanks but I can't even see them eject. I guess due to the fact they are so small and fast.
Casings eject forwards, upwards and to the right. DRH/13 is only slightly above June's head so no I don't see this at all. DRH/14 would need to take a sharp left turn. If it came to rest on carpet as it had run out of steam why would it then bounce down the stairs and come to rest against the skirting board?
If you believe the casing layout diagram to be accurate and reliable then you surely must agree that DRH/5 pertains to a graze wound June sustained to her chest unrelated to any other wound? How did DRH/5 end up in the found position? This would also mean a total of 8 casings pertain to June: 7 entry gsw's and 1 graze gsw. Which 4 casings do you think pertain to NB's upstairs gsw's?
Any of those on the floor within the bedroom. Even the police would have had difficulty working out which ones.
As noted before, the perp, June, Nevill or the TFG could have kicked DRH/3, 4 & 5 (and even 13 & 14) to where they were found.
I didn't say the casings would necessarily come to an absolute rest on hitting the carpet. They could have bounced/rolled a short distance depending on their speed and angle of impact.
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One only has to glance at the casing distribution plan below to realise the initial shooting of both June and Nevill occurred in the master bedroom.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8094.0;attach=8756;image)
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Any of those on the floor within the bedroom. Even the police would have had difficulty working out which ones.
As noted before, the perp, June, Nevill or the TFG could have kicked DRH/3, 4 & 5 (and even 13 & 14) to where they were found.
I didn't say the casings would necessarily come to an absolute rest on hitting the carpet. They could have bounced/rolled a short distance depending on their speed and angle of impact.
Well if you believe the casing layout diagram is accurate then it must mean June sustained 6 gsw's whilst she was in bed and getting out of (5 entry wounds and 1 graze wound). On this basis it seems reasonable to assume 6 of the casings forming a cluster of 8 June's side of the bed pertain to June's gsw's to her body. This would mean 2 of the remaining 8 pertain to NB's gsw's along with DRH/3 and /4. The problem is this doesn't fit with the trajectories. If DRH/3 and /4 pertain to NB's gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest as he fled the bedroom how can the trajectories be explained? Dr Vanezis' trial testimony said these were fired from above.
I know I'm probably boring others senseless rambling on about this but it is important! I appreciate you and some others have tried to make sense of it along with myself. But imo it is one of the most important aspects of the case and yet many think you can just gloss over it or fill the void with complete shite. I've posted scenarios at the start of this thread from CAL, Dr Vanezis, MF, DPP and JB. They are all either incomplete eg Dr Vanezis saying he thought the twins were shot first. And.......................... Or completely barking eg JB saying NB wasn't shot upstairs at all and soc officer DC Hammersley wasn't even at soc! In terms of CAL it's interesting how someone can write well and yet lack the awareness and skills to make any sense of the soc whatsoever.
Most just seem to think you can say JB or SC burst into their parents bedroom and shot them in bed! This can be evidenced by Michael Turner QC arguing the police inadvertently removed blood from the phone by dialling out. I've just flicked through Lomax and Harrison and they don't fare any better. Harrison's claims of an annoymous letter detailing the soc makes no sense at all.
See how many times the experts refer to the word trajectory in the JFK reconstruction and yet in the WHF case most seem to think the trajectories pertaining to NB's upstairs gsw's are something that can either be ignored or brushed aside:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5JDhi4URds
Why does Dr Vanezis refer to the trajectories in his autopsy report, his further report dated 16th May 1986 and his trial testimony? Why bother with this info if it doesn't mean something?
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It is impossible to work out trajectories Holly as we are talking about a moving target. Nevill could have been kneeling down or have fallen or in any one of a dozen other positions when shot, only the killer knows.
The only thing we know for sure is that the majority of the casings lie within the bedroom and to get there the shooter had to be either in the bedroom or standing just outside firing in. Had the shooter been in the bedroom firing out the casings would not have fallen where they did.
DRH13 and DRH14 are shown as Second Episode shots (June) fired from the doorway.
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It is impossible to work out trajectories Holly as we are talking about a moving target. Nevill could have been kneeling down or have fallen or in any one of a dozen other positions when shot, only the killer knows.
The only thing we know for sure is that the majority of the casings lie within the bedroom and to get there the shooter had to be either in the bedroom or standing just outside firing in. Had the shooter been in the bedroom firing out the casings would not have fallen where they did.
DRH13 and DRH14 are shown as Second Episode shots (June) fired from the doorway.
If NB fell or knelt as he fled the bedroom with the perp behind then why didn't the "violent struggle" take place there and then when NB was in a very vulnerable position? At this point NB had sustained 2 gsw's to his face, 1 gsw to his shoulder and another to his elbow/chest.
How can the trajectories to NB's lip and jaw be accounted for ie 20 degrees below the horizontal? These wounds were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin. Please consider the dimesnions of the bed and the length of the barrel.
Some use the phrase 'thinking out of the box'. Here we can think out of the box and out of the bedroom 8)-))) I think most will agree the master bedroom door was wide open. Therefore it is possible that the perp fired out of the bedroom onto the landing and casings DRH/3 and/4 pertain to these shots. It is also possible the perp fired shots on the landing and casings DRH/13 and /14 pertain to these shots.
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I appreciate if an object impedes the flight of an ejected casing it has the potential to cause the casing
to ricochet off the object and alter the normal casing ejection pattern. But I don't believe the poetntial for ricochet is as great as that depicted in your diagram. MF's estimate of 4' max is based on an unimpeded flight. Your diagram has the ejected casing travelling a few inches based on the normal pattern then ricocheting against the wall and travelling a further 3' to 4' in the opposite direction. I think you will find hitting the wall will remove all the energy and any ricochet will amount to a few inches max?
The rifle in the 'Farm Girl' vid, Bushmaster, uses .223. The Anshutz .22. The ejection mechanism on the Bushmaster will need to deliver more force to eject the casing due to the size and weight of the .223. However any energy remaining for free flight will be similar due to the difference in weight? The ejction mechanism will deliever proportionate force to eject the casing and any remaining energy for free flight will surely be similar?
The casings eject upwards, forwards and to the right. If we consider June's found position with the top of her head in a Northerly direction. Based on the wound tracks of the gsw's to her head the casings would be expected in a NE postion on the landing with nothing to impede the flight. DRH/3 and 4 are in an Easterly postion?
Its a pity we can't see how the casings land in this vid but we can see they definitely travel in a Northerly direction not Easterly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
If June came face-to-face with the perp ie June facing out onto the landing and the perp facing into the bedroom with June sustaining the gsw's to her head in this position what would happen to her body in terms of involuntary movement and possibly falling against a moving object ie the door? Bearing in mind also MF estimated the gsw above the ear to have been fired when the rifle was more than a foot away and the gsw between the eyes less than a foot away.
There is no use comparing a .223 to a .22lr. Different gun, different ammo and different extractor. Plus the tree is far away.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fAgHRWzhciE/UQV6hRR_8UI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/RVrYD9V1Ktg/s1600/223+and+22.jpg)
I have managed to create an animation in my reconstruction. The link is below. What is good about this is the software actually uses a physics engine. So its fairly realistic.
https://expirebox.com/download/810f54db1bd496d0a073494610263da0.html (https://expirebox.com/download/810f54db1bd496d0a073494610263da0.html)
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Roch says Ainsley was brought in to hide that evidence.
Oh, right!! It's all sorted then!!
Any day now, Bamber will be released. Because of Roch's.....thing.
I'm feeling a bit of a Colin Fry thing here. It's sort of small, green, looks like a sprout.
A mushy sprout.
@)(++(* @)(++(*
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Hopefully Jackie will today submit her new received information & requested Sheila scenario. Guilters like myself may then take a less negative view on Bamber.
Forum members can give their views & advice on the scenario & new information.
It will be good to use posters interested and familar with the case as a sounding board, prior to Jackie embarking on her 6 part documentary on the case.
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There is no use comparing a .223 to a .22lr. Different gun, different ammo and different extractor. Plus the tree is far away.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fAgHRWzhciE/UQV6hRR_8UI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/RVrYD9V1Ktg/s1600/223+and+22.jpg)
I have managed to create an animation in my reconstruction. The link is below. What is good about this is the software actually uses a physics engine. So its fairly realistic.
https://expirebox.com/download/810f54db1bd496d0a073494610263da0.html (https://expirebox.com/download/810f54db1bd496d0a073494610263da0.html)
Your reconstruction based on my reconstruction 8(0(*
So you think DRH/3 and /4 pertain to June's head gsw's? One of these casings is visible in the soc image of June by the door. It is opposite June's face about 1.5 - 2.0 feet away. I can't reconcile this based on the distance of shots, wound tracks and what is known about the ejection pattern.
MF sounds a bit of a numpty based on his trial testimony. Eg telling the court his relevant experience included a small amount of experience with an air rifle during childhood. However hopefully he was capable of firing a hundred rounds or so to determine the casing ejection pattern. He said casings can travel up to 4'. I think the idea a casing can travel a few inches in one direction, hit a wall and then ricochet in the opposite direction some 3' to 4' feet is somewhat fanciful. I don't think it would have the energy required for this sort of movement. If it can travel up to 4' unimpeded why would it travel the same distance impeded? Hitting a solid object eg a wall will all but stop it. Just a little 8(*(
I haven't downloaded your link in case its a trick to spy on me and steal my intelligence ?>)()<
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Hopefully Jackie will today submit her new received information & requested Sheila scenario. Guilters like myself may then take a less negative view on Bamber.
Forum members can give their views & advice on the scenario & new information.
It will be good to use posters interested and familar with the case as a sounding board, prior to Jackie embarking on her 6 part documentary on the case.
Is this the BBC documentary Lookout and Mike are presenting? 8)-)))
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Is this the BBC documentary Lookout and Mike are presenting? 8)-)))
I suspect it will Martin Bashir.
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I suspect it will Martin Bashir.
Mike's presentation skills will be a tough act to follow even for the likes of MB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo
8)-)))
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Mike's presentation skills will be a tough act to follow even for the likes of MB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCART1vcCo
8)-)))
I'm sure Jeremy will be pleased if Mike narrates in Jackie's 6 part documentary.
Someone like Sir Trevor Macdonald 'OBE', would give the documentary more gravitas. Once he finds out Julie identified the twins, Sir Trevor may even agree to do it for free.
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The first part of the documentary series is already in the can. Very short, but it's going to be a big hit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7qm3t3IU1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7qm3t3IU1U)
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I hope the 6 part documentary doesn't get scrapped after a couple of episodes.
I was very upset when Trudi's Monday vlogs suddenly stopped. Without explanation.
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I hope the 6 part documentary doesn't get scrapped after a couple of episodes.
I guess it will depend on audience figs. Hopefully a few more than Mike's and Trood's vids.
I was very upset when Trudi's Monday vlogs suddenly stopped. Without explanation.
Maybe Troods is busy with her law degree.
http://bambercampaign.blogspot.co.uk/
Gook luck with this Troods. Maybe look to take bar exams afterwards and get yourself silked up for JB's next appeal 8((()*/ 8(>(( ?>)()< 8)-)))
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I'm sure Jeremy will be pleased if Mike narrates in Jackie's 6 part documentary.
Someone like Sir Trevor Macdonald 'OBE', would give the documentary more gravitas. Once he finds out Julie identified the twins, Sir Trevor may even agree to do it for free.
I think Jeremy Kyle interviewing Jackie, Lookout and Mike about the case will have a wider appeal. At the end of the day broadcasters need high audience figures. 8)-)))
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I think Jeremy Kyle interviewing Jackie, Lookout and Mike about the case will have a wider appeal. At the end of the day broadcasters need high audience figures. 8)-)))
I am sure Jeremy will be most appreciative if they all appeared together on Jeremy Kyle to promote the 'Campaign for freedom'.
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Must admit I can't think of any 6 part documentaries which focused on one crime.
There have been one episode documentaries on Bamber. He made an official complaint about 'Killing Mum & Dad' which was rejected. 'Crimes that shook Britain' mentioned things in Bamber's favour such as the -trick of the light'.
There is a current documentary on OJ Simpson which is more than one episode. However that has so far spent two episodes on his life as a footballer, actor & very famous American star. Together with his influence on American black culture in the 70's & 80's.
Jackie's thread on the Blue forum shows she wants all 6 episodes to just focus on the crime and things that support her view that Bamber is innocent.
I can't see any television channels being gullible & desparate enough to commission such a long and biased documentary. The case is not big enough and there is much more counter evidence everyone knows or can find out about which would negate everything screened.
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Must admit I can't think of any 6 part documentaries which focused on one crime.
There have been one episode documentaries on Bamber. He made an official complaint about 'Killing Mum & Dad' which was rejected. 'Crimes that shook Britain' mentioned things in Bamber's favour such as the -trick of the light'.
There is a current documentary on OJ Simpson which is more than one episode. However that has so far spent two episodes on his life as a footballer, actor & very famous American star. Together with his influence on American black culture in the 70's & 80's.
Jackie's thread on the Blue forum shows she wants all 6 episodes to just focus on the crime and things that support her view that Bamber is innocent.
I can't see any television channels being gullible & desparate enough to commission such a long and biased documentary. The case is not big enough and there is much more counter evidence everyone knows or can find out about which would negate everything screened.
Are we talking 1 hour slots, 30 mins or something else?
I can think of lots to fill 6 x 1 hour slots. Where does 6 come from anyway?
- Biographical info about the various players including 2/3 generations back. To incl the birth families of JB and SC. Social history to put into context. Even if no legal constraints this would need to be dealt with sensitively as imo it isn't right to give out identifying info about those under discussion. Eg JM lives here, works there etc, etc.
- Policing during the period under question eg just before PACE. Where forensic science was then eg pre DNA and the fact blood pattern analysis wasn't used etc.
- The defence and prosecution case for and against JB. Reminding viewers of the state of telephony in 1985 ie calls could not be traced.
- Allowing a bunch of female novices with long polished fingernails to copy an experienced firearms handler and see how many attempts it takes until they can master loading the mag, chambering a round and pulling the trigger. This could incl shooting at targets at a similar distance to the victims. Also to cover tests on hands from handling bullets.
- 3d animated reconstructions in model form to test various theories eg NB shot in bedroom, on stairs etc
- Input from ballistics, bloodstain analyst and pathologist to cover SC's found state ie explanations re lack of GSR, blood on her person/nightie. Opinions from various other experts eg psychiatrist and psychologist.
- The machinations of the judicial system: preparing for trial, trial process at court, juries, prison life as a Cat A prisoner, CCRC, appeal hearings.
I don't think it will ever happen though:
- Cost.
- Is there enough interest in such a programme to cover costs and make a profit?
- I think most in mainstream media probably see JB as guilty unless they are presented with some compelling new evidence. As it stands why would any broadcaster push the boat out for JB unless they thought he was the victim of a MoJ?
Of course if JB's conviction is quashed the world and his dog will want to produce all manner of media: tv progs, films, books. It could then run and run with ad agencies wanting a slice of the action if his conviction is overturned on very strong grounds. All the books and docu/dramas to date are exceptionally poor imo. CAL is probably the best but its rooted in the dark ages and looks backwards.
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Are we talking 1 hour slots, 30 mins or something else?
I can think of lots to fill 6 x 1 hour slots. Where does 6 come from anyway?
- Biographical info about the various players including 2/3 generations back. To incl the birth families of JB and SC. Social history to put into context. Even if no legal constraints this would need to be dealt with sensitively as imo it isn't right to give out identifying info about those under discussion. Eg JM lives here, works there etc, etc.
- Policing during the period under question eg just before PACE. Where forensic science was then eg pre DNA and the fact blood pattern analysis wasn't used etc.
- The defence and prosecution case for and against JB. Reminding viewers of the state of telephony in 1985 ie calls could not be traced.
- Allowing a bunch of female novices with long polished fingernails to copy an experienced firearms handler and see how many attempts it takes until they can master loading the mag, chambering a round and pulling the trigger. This could incl shooting at targets at a similar distance to the victims. Also to cover tests on hands from handling bullets.
- 3d animated reconstructions in model form to test various theories eg NB shot in bedroom, on stairs etc
- Input from ballistics, bloodstain analyst and pathologist to cover SC's found state ie explanations re lack of GSR, blood on her person/nightie. Opinions from various other experts eg psychiatrist and psychologist.
- The machinations of the judicial system: preparing for trial, trial process at court, juries, prison life as a Cat A prisoner, CCRC, appeal hearings.
I don't think it will ever happen though:
- Cost.
- Is there enough interest in such a programme to cover costs and make a profit?
- I think most in mainstream media probably see JB as guilty unless they are presented with some compelling new evidence. As it stands why would any broadcaster push the boat out for JB unless they thought he was the victim of a MoJ?
Of course if JB's conviction is quashed the world and his dog will want to produce all manner of media: tv progs, films, books. It could then run and run with ad agencies wanting a slice of the action if his conviction is overturned on very strong grounds. All the books and docu/dramas to date are exceptionally poor imo. CAL is probably the best but its rooted in the dark ages and looks backwards.
Jackie has said it will be a 6 part documentary.
Her suggested topics are The Murder and Crime Scene, the Relatives and the money trail, Julie Mugford, The silencer, the police officers involved, discrepincies in the Case, Sheila, Jeremy.
So obviously it's going to be very biased and just focus on trying to show Bamber is innocent.
I suspect any respectable TV channel will reject the idea.
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Jackie has said it will be a 6 part documentary.
Her suggested topics are The Murder and Crime Scene, the Relatives and the money trail, Julie Mugford, The silencer, the police officers involved, discrepincies in the Case, Sheila, Jeremy.
So obviously it's going to be very biased and just focus on trying to show Bamber is innocent.
I suspect any respectable TV channel will reject the idea.
Well Jackie has posted in the past that she was in touch with Mark Williams Thomas who was interested in putting something together:
http://www.williams-thomas.co.uk/
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I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom. As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent. At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.
I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:
The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.
The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin. To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches. NB was 6'4" tall. A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later. That's 78". The length of the rifle is 43".
Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max
Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip. How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.
June was shot 6 x's whilst in bed or getting out of. She was then able to get out of bed and walk around it as far as the blue socks and bible on the floor as per bloodstaning to carpet and back again to her found location. A total of 8 casings were found June's side of the bed. It seems clear 6 pertain to June's gsw's: 5 entered her body and 1 graze only wound. Even if I consider the other 2 pertain to NB (lip and jaw) how did NB get out of bed with the perp hanging over the end of it and the barrel within inches of NB's skin? Even if I consider this happened at what point did NB sustain his gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest? Where are the casings for these gsw's if the casings by the door pertain to June's head gsw's? If the casing on the transition strip and the casing on the landing pertain to these wounds how can the downward trajectories be accounted for? The pathologist said the gsw's to NB's shoulder were inflicted from above. Ballistics estimated the distance of these shots at 2 feet away.
If NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom at what point did he turn? 2 x face. 1 x back of shoulder. 1 x elbow/chest? Why was none of NB's blood found on carpets or bedding within the bedroom or landing? A blood trail started on the stairs as evidenced by AE's WS and DCI Jones' notebook.
If June sustained the gsw's to her head in the found position where are the casings? I'm struggling to reconcile the location of any of the casings in their found location, as per soc photos, with June's gsw's.
Hartley's scenario makes no sense to me. It's not easy fitting all the bits together. I remain stumped on accounting for the casings to June's gsw's to the head assuming these were inflicted in the found position. (Sorry David don't buy into to your ricochet here there and everywhere theory). We know the pathological evidence shows either of these gsw's rendered June incapable of voluntary movement thereafter so any movement would need to be involuntary but I can't see any position June may have fallen into that accounts for the 8 casings her side of the bed to pertain to all her gsw's. If she was sat against the door and slid down to the found position this would not account for the casings her side of the bed. I know casings can be kicked around etc but the casings June's side of the bed are well preserved due to the door and duvet on the floor.
I can only think June may have been stood or sat around the corner of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp inflicted the head gsw's in this position. June then fell against the door and her body twisted 180 degrees but this seems as unlikely as David's ricochet theory.
Will have to take myself off into a darkened room and think about this..............
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Well, considering my "rudimentary' IT skills" and the ostensible idea that everything I have is stolen. I didn't think id have anything interesting to post really.
(http://mushin.werksicht.de/assets/emoticon/roll_eyes.png)
David consider the distance of the shots June sustained to her body and the location of casings that pertain to these wounds. Then consider the distance of shots June sustained to her head and the location of casings that pertain to these wounds.
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I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom. As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent. At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.
I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:
The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.
The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin. To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches. NB was 6'4" tall. A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later. That's 78". The length of the rifle is 43".
Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max
Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip. How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.
June was shot 6 x's whilst in bed or getting out of. She was then able to get out of bed and walk around it as far as the blue socks and bible on the floor as per bloodstaning to carpet and back again to her found location. A total of 8 casings were found June's side of the bed. It seems clear 6 pertain to June's gsw's: 5 entered her body and 1 graze only wound. Even if I consider the other 2 pertain to NB (lip and jaw) how did NB get out of bed with the perp hanging over the end of it and the barrel within inches of NB's skin? Even if I consider this happened at what point did NB sustain his gsw's to his shoulder and elbow/chest? Where are the casings for these gsw's if the casings by the door pertain to June's head gsw's? If the casing on the transition strip and the casing on the landing pertain to these wounds how can the downward trajectories be accounted for? The pathologist said the gsw's to NB's shoulder were inflicted from above. Ballistics estimated the distance of these shots at 2 feet away.
If NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom at what point did he turn? 2 x face. 1 x back of shoulder. 1 x elbow/chest? Why was none of NB's blood found on carpets or bedding within the bedroom or landing? A blood trail started on the stairs as evidenced by AE's WS and DCI Jones' notebook.
If June sustained the gsw's to her head in the found position where are the casings? I'm struggling to reconcile the location of any of the casings in their found location, as per soc photos, with June's gsw's.
Hartley's scenario makes no sense to me. It's not easy fitting all the bits together. I remain stumped on accounting for the casings to June's gsw's to the head assuming these were inflicted in the found position. (Sorry David don't buy into to your ricochet here there and everywhere theory). We know the pathological evidence shows either of these gsw's rendered June incapable of voluntary movement thereafter so any movement would need to be involuntary but I can't see any position June may have fallen into that accounts for the 8 casings her side of the bed to pertain to all her gsw's. If she was sat against the door and slid down to the found position this would not account for the casings her side of the bed. I know casings can be kicked around etc but the casings June's side of the bed are well preserved due to the door and duvet on the floor.
I can only think June may have been stood or sat around the corner of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp inflicted the head gsw's in this position. June then fell against the door and her body twisted 180 degrees but this seems as unlikely as David's ricochet theory.
Will have to take myself off into a darkened room and think about this..............
People are just going by where the shell casings were.
Although David has recently said they go forward 6 feet, which made it even more certain Nevill was shot in the bedroom. David has since posted a diagram of the casings ejecting sideways.
He's now saying the bullet casings bounced off walls, which contradicts his pictures of Sheila standing under an open door with not a wall in front of her for 10 feet.
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I don't really understand why many who believe JB guilty are keen to preserve the idea NB was shot in the bedroom. As puglove has pointed out even if NB was shot on the stairs it wouldn't make JB innocent. At best all it can do is lend support to NB phoning JB.
I've just copied Hartley's reconstruction from Blue:
The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.
The ballistics evidence show NB's lip and jaw gsw's were inflicted when the barrel was inches from NB's skin. To err on the side of caution I will go for 11 inches. NB was 6'4" tall. A standard bed is 6'3" in length and a King and Queen 6'6" so I'll assme the later. That's 78". The length of the rifle is 43".
Length of bed = 78"
Length of rifle = 43"
Distance of shot = 11" approx max
Deduct the length of rifle and distance of shot from the length of the bed leaves 25" meaning the perp would need to hang over the end of the bed to inflict the gsw's to NB's face and lip. How would NB then get out of bed and get past the perp to sustain the gsw's to the rear of his shoulder and elbow/chest.
Holly, just because the bed is 78" long doesn't mean that Nevill was lying flat with his head jammed up against the headboard... Geez!!! He was probably leaning forward about to get out of bed because he was aware that he was going to be shot. The rifle could have been held, not in the conventional way with butt end up against the assailant's shoulder, but with its body thrust forward and muzzle close to Nevill's face. No need therefore for any 11" gap. It's so easy to imagine, I can't understand why you don't see that. You're too reliant on perfect precision and measurements which are way off the mark.
There was no blood on the bedding maybe because, unlike June, he was only shot twice and was quicker to get up and out of the room. But even if there was the odd spot or two, either forensics missed it or the police burned the relevant sheet(s) with the stains.
As for the two shoulder and arm wounds, if you insist that they occurred with the perp standing in the doorway, or on the landing, or on the winders, while Nevill was going downstairs, then you could easily substitute JB for SC with the same result.
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Your reconstruction based on my reconstruction 8(0(*
I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.
I haven't downloaded your link in case its a trick to spy on me and steal my intelligence ?>)()<
@)(++(*
I have turned it into a gif.
(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)
Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv (http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv)
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David, what's the latest with this "forensic breakthrough" of yours/Caroline's ?
Did it all turn out to be total horseshit?
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I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.
@)(++(*
I have turned it into a gif.
(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)
Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv (http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv)
64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
So the casings do go sideways, not forwards. What were they made off rubber ?
Nevill would have to get to the bedroom door for two shots. As 6 of the shots were from inches away. I did say this on you're casing thread but got no response.
If Nevill went upstairs and got so close to Sheila, it's likely there would be a confrontation upstairs, rather than Nevill running straight back downstairs.
Everything points to June & Neville being shot in the bedroom in an 8 - 11 opening bullet salvo.
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David, what's the latest with this "forensic breakthrough" of yours/Caroline's ?
Did it all turn out to be total horseshit?
Don't knock this. David had to travel 45 minutes to hand deliver this to Bamber's legal advisors, a year ago.
He didn't answer my question on whether he stopped for a coffee half way there.
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Holly, just because the bed is 78" long doesn't mean that Nevill was lying flat with his head jammed up against the headboard... Geez!!! He was probably leaning forward about to get out of bed because he was aware that he was going to be shot. The rifle could have been held, not in the conventional way with butt end up against the assailant's shoulder, but with its body thrust forward and muzzle close to Nevill's face. No need therefore for any 11" gap. It's so easy to imagine, I can't understand why you don't see that. You're too reliant on perfect precision and measurements which are way off the mark.
There was no blood on the bedding maybe because, unlike June, he was only shot twice and was quicker to get up and out of the room. But even if there was the odd spot or two, either forensics missed it or the police burned the relevant sheet(s) with the stains.
As for the two shoulder and arm wounds, if you insist that they occurred with the perp standing in the doorway, or on the landing, or on the winders, while Nevill was going downstairs, then you could easily substitute JB for SC with the same result.
11" is the approx distance of the shot not a gap. MF estimated the distance of NB's facial shots at "within inches" of his skin. Had I have used 6" it would mean the perp would need to hang over the bed further with or without rifle! Anyway NB with his head on the pillow wouldn't work without the perp holding the rifle at a vertical drop over NB's face since the track of the wounds went from front to back.
Ok so NB was sitting up either fully or partially putting his face around the middle of the bed 39". I'll reduce the distance of shot to 6". 39" + 6" = 45". Rifle = 43". Still means perp would need to hang over the bed with or without rifle. How did NB then manage to push past perp and sustain the GSW's to his shoulder and elbow/graze? If you think the casings by the door pertain to June's GSW's to the head where are the casings for NB's shoulder and elbow/chest GSW's?
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11" is the approx distance of the shot not a gap. MF estimated the distance of NB's facial shots at "within inches" of his skin. Had I have used 6" it would mean the perp would need to hang over the bed further with or without rifle! Anyway NB with his head on the pillow wouldn't work without the perp holding the rifle at a vertical drop over NB's face since the track of the wounds went from front to back.
Ok so NB was sitting up either fully or partially putting his face around the middle of the bed 39". I'll reduce the distance of shot to 6". 39" + 6" = 45". Rifle = 43". Still means perp would need to hang over the bed with or without rifle. How did NB then manage to push past perp and sustain the GSW's to his shoulder and elbow/graze? If you think the casings by the door pertain to June's GSW's to the head where are the casings for NB's shoulder and elbow/chest GSW's?
All this can ever be is supposition.
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People are just going by where the shell casings were.
Although David has recently said they go forward 6 feet, which made it even more certain Nevill was shot in the bedroom. David has since posted a diagram of the casings ejecting sideways.
He's now saying the bullet casings bounced off walls, which contradicts his pictures of Sheila standing under an open door with not a wall in front of her for 10 feet.
David, where are you getting 6' from and sideways?
You need to consider whether the collision (casing hitting wall) is an elastic or inelastic collision and I think the angle also affects the outcome.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/linear-momentum/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions/v/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions
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I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.
@)(++(*
I have turned it into a gif.
(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)
Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv (http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv)
What has June carrying her bible with her when she walked around the bed got to do with my reconstruction based on NB sustaining his gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs? When I first mooted the latter Dec 2015 I don't recall you contributing anything positive to the thread other than facetious comments....
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
Did you discuss this with JB's defence when you dropped off your 'forensic evidence breakthrough'?
What has happened to your other pet projects:
- 'Forensic evidence breakthrough'
- A pattern you believe you can see on SC's neck representing the threaded end of the barrel
- SC's TOD taking place when JB was outside with EP based on lividity, wet blood photos etc
- Marks on NB's arm(s) you believe were caused by fingernails
My guess is you realise they are not capable of being advanced in any shape or form so you've latched onto my soc reconstruction.
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All this can ever be is supposition.
Yes I agree no one sane is going to take much notice of the likes of David and myself rambling on. However I have emailed experts in the US and spoken with experts in the UK who have advised a 3d reconstruction is possible for use as a court exhibit. This would be based on:
- Scaled drawings of WHF
- Autopsy photos and reports detailing victims' biometrics and gsw's
- Bloodstaining
- Ballistics evidence - distance of shots
- SOC photos dispalying casings
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Hopefully David will provide a source that the rifle casings travel forward 6 feet. Or is it sideways 6 feet ? Together with a source that the casings will bounce several feet off walls.
The only source supplied at the moment are his own diagrams.
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I'm afraid it does not involve June deciding to pick up a book and go wandering around after her brains have been mashed to a pulp.
@)(++(*
I have turned it into a gif.
(http://i.imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gif)
Here it is gifv format
http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv (http://imgur.com/CGCOvJs.gifv)
Blimey, check out Annie Oakley!! (Putting her prints all over the gun....)
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Blimey, check out Annie Oakley!! (Putting her prints all over the gun....)
Yup, pardner.... but darnit, she wiped 'em all off after her sharpshootin' session!
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Holly, just because the bed is 78" long doesn't mean that Nevill was lying flat with his head jammed up against the headboard... Geez!!! He was probably leaning forward about to get out of bed because he was aware that he was going to be shot. The rifle could have been held, not in the conventional way with butt end up against the assailant's shoulder, but with its body thrust forward and muzzle close to Nevill's face. No need therefore for any 11" gap. It's so easy to imagine, I can't understand why you don't see that. You're too reliant on perfect precision and measurements which are way off the mark.
There was no blood on the bedding maybe because, unlike June, he was only shot twice and was quicker to get up and out of the room. But even if there was the odd spot or two, either forensics missed it or the police burned the relevant sheet(s) with the stains.
As for the two shoulder and arm wounds, if you insist that they occurred with the perp standing in the doorway, or on the landing, or on the winders, while Nevill was going downstairs, then you could easily substitute JB for SC with the same result.
I only had time first thing the morning to answer your first para:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8094.msg406792#msg406792
DC Hammersley told the court at trial everything of evidential value was removed from the bed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=223
Dr Vanezis told the court at trial the area of NB's face where the gsw's hit contained a rich blood supply:
See attached
I'll put my guilty hat on for a moment as I can see you lot need a hand ?>)()< Exit wounds produce more blood than entry wounds 8(0(*
I've always said if experts can show NB sustained his upstairs gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs it doesn't rule out SC or JB. All it can do is lend support to JB's claims of a phone call from NB. And show how incompetent and negligent JB's defence were in not advancing this at trial and appeal hearings.
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11" is the approx distance of the shot not a gap. MF estimated the distance of NB's facial shots at "within inches" of his skin. Had I have used 6" it would mean the perp would need to hang over the bed further with or without rifle! Anyway NB with his head on the pillow wouldn't work without the perp holding the rifle at a vertical drop over NB's face since the track of the wounds went from front to back.
Ok so NB was sitting up either fully or partially putting his face around the middle of the bed 39". I'll reduce the distance of shot to 6". 39" + 6" = 45". Rifle = 43". Still means perp would need to hang over the bed with or without rifle. How did NB then manage to push past perp and sustain the GSW's to his shoulder and elbow/graze? If you think the casings by the door pertain to June's GSW's to the head where are the casings for NB's shoulder and elbow/chest GSW's?
No need for the perp to hang over the bed. Imagine the model's upper body and/or head turned towards the shooter, then the two trajectories would match the direction in the autopsy diagram. (Sorry, can't rotate the model's head).
Ejected casings hit the wall, rebound off it onto the floor on June's side, or land on the bedding and drop onto the floor as she gets up.
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No need for the perp to hang over the bed. Imagine the model's upper body and/or head turned towards the shooter, then the two trajectories would match the direction in the autopsy diagram. (Sorry, can't rotate the model's head).
Ejected casings hit the wall, rebound off it onto the floor on June's side, or land on the bedding and drop onto the floor as she gets up.
Are you suggesting the perp was stood at the bottom of the bed? If so I doubt the casings would hit the back wall by the top of bed since according to MF's trial testimony they travel up to 4' or 48". A standard double bed is 75" long.
NB was 6'4" tall. Dr Vanezis put the trajectories of the facial gsw's at 20 degrees below the horizontal. Would this fit with NB sat on the bed and the perp stood around the foot of the bed? JB 6'0". SC 5'7.5". I think the trajectories would be > 20 degrees below the horizontal?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
http://www.firstinarchitecture.co.uk/average-heights-dimensions-of-person-sitting/
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It seems the claim is Sheila was in the bedroom when shooting Nevill. Standing just inside the bedroom door.
Nevill was coming upstairs & got to within inches of the rifle end before being shot in the face. He then retreated back down stairs.
The reason the casings are so deep inside the bedroom is because they ejected several feet to the rifles right and bounced off the wall with great venom.
Hopefully David will provide his sources that casings from that rifle eject to the right with great force. Also that they bounce off walls with equal force. At the moment he has just posted his own diagrams as sources.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ8lDUE9RNg
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David I will take the opportunity here to remind you of a previous post:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg294289#msg294289
Please consider the environment, location of casings and distance of shots.
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David I will take the opportunity here to remind you of a previous post:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg294289#msg294289
Please consider the environment, location of casings and distance of shots.
David provided a source in 2015 when saying the casings eject forward.
So far he has not provided a contradictory source that the casings actually eject sideways to the right and bounce strongly off walls. Although he has created a diagram showing this occurring. After realising the casings moving forward do not support his choosen view of Sheila shooting Nevill from the bedroom door.
It seems he is randomly changing the lenght, direction & bouncability of the shell casings until it matches his claim that Sheila shot Nevill from the bedroom door. Using his own diagrams as his chosen source.
An independent source is required that the casing trajectories from the murder weapon are to the right & bounce strongly off walls. Otherwise his source provided in 2015 showing the bullet casings moving forward will have to be accepted and his recent right/bouncing casing theory rejected.
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What has June carrying her bible with her when she walked around the bed got to do with my reconstruction based on NB sustaining his gsw's on the landing stairs and/or main stairs? When I first mooted the latter Dec 2015 I don't recall you contributing anything positive to the thread other than facetious comments....
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
What is wrong with providing alternative possibilities? no matter how unlikely. Its important to consider IMO.
What has happened to your other pet projects:
- 'Forensic evidence breakthrough'
- A pattern you believe you can see on SC's neck representing the threaded end of the barrel
- SC's TOD taking place when JB was outside with EP based on lividity, wet blood photos etc
- Marks on NB's arm(s) you believe were caused by fingernails
My guess is you realise they are not capable of being advanced in any shape or form so you've latched onto my soc reconstruction.
The first two are being looked into. Ive passed them onto to those who can actually make something happen from them. What more can I do? I have done all I can as for as those are concerned.
TOD based on lividity, wet blood photos etc. I've never been given a credible argument to invalidate the idea. As it stands I have nothing more to do. CCRC have already got an answer/excuse for it.
Marks on NB's arm caused by fingernails. Not my idea or project. Its already been submitted back in 2004.
BTW this whole effort/investigation in my mind is to establish facts and help correct possible injustice. Its not a competition of who thought of what first. So stop being catty.
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Are you suggesting the perp was stood at the bottom of the bed? If so I doubt the casings would hit the back wall by the top of bed since according to MF's trial testimony they travel up to 4' or 48". A standard double bed is 75" long.
NB was 6'4" tall. Dr Vanezis put the trajectories of the facial gsw's at 20 degrees below the horizontal. Would this fit with NB sat on the bed and the perp stood around the foot of the bed? JB 6'0". SC 5'7.5". I think the trajectories would be > 20 degrees below the horizontal?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
http://www.firstinarchitecture.co.uk/average-heights-dimensions-of-person-sitting/
BTW I recreated the shots to Nevill via the anatomical position. Thought this would help. Beats the drawings made back in 1986.
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David, where are you getting 6' from and sideways?
Adam put those words in my mouth.
You need to consider whether the collision (casing hitting wall) is an elastic or inelastic collision and I think the angle also affects the outcome.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/linear-momentum/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions/v/elastic-and-inelastic-collisions
No I don't. Shell casings can and do bounce/richocet. Iv given you several forensic studies on this already. Maybe you have to see it to believe it?
(http://imgur.com/lypIzTD.gif)
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Adam put those words in my mouth.
No I don't. Shell casings can and do bounce/richocet. Iv given you several forensic studies on this already. Maybe you have to see it to believe it?
(http://imgur.com/lypIzTD.gif)
"For what its worth. The theory is Neville retreats holding the wounds just inflicted. This then puts the shoulder into a perfect location for the shot from above to be inflicted.
The shell casings eject forward and can travel up to six feet (apparently). Three of them bounce off the bedroom wall and onto the floor were found (as demonstrated). The one found on the stairs got passed the wall and onto the stairs were it was found."
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8281.0.html
David posted the above in reply 309 of the linked thread. And attached a diagram. So not sure why he's saying I "put those words in my mouth".
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Anyway David has today again used his own diagram as a source that the casings eject sideways and bounce off walls.
It has to be concluded that shell casings don't travel sideways and bounce off walls.
His 2015 independent source of the casings ejecting forward has to be used. Although this source does not confirm casings travel up to 6 feet forward.
This makes it impossible that Sheila was shooting a coming up the stairs Nevill from the bedroom door. As the four forward travelling casings would all be in the hallway or on the stairs.
The killer & Nevill must have both been deep inside the bedroom when firing/receiving shots.
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Adam put those words in my mouth.
No I don't. Shell casings can and do bounce/richocet. Iv given you several forensic studies on this already. Maybe you have to see it to believe it?
(http://imgur.com/lypIzTD.gif)
What calibre weapon is that?
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What calibre weapon is that?
.22 LR rimfire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P22)
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David I will respond to your posts later time permitting.
The high speed vid looks more like a bullet ricocheting back towards the shooter than a casing!? In any event you need to compare like for like.
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David I will respond to your posts later time permitting.
The high speed vid looks more like a bullet ricocheting back towards the shooter than a casing!? In any event you need to compare like for like.
Whether it's a bullet or casing, it's David's diagram. So in no way a credible source that the casings travel to the right of the rifle and forcefully bounce off walls.
We have to go by David's 2015 independent source that the casings travel forward. Although it's doubtful 6 feet forward on such a low powered rifle. A couple of feet maybe.
I will be pleased to be proved wrong about the 6 feet issue as it just makes it more certain the killer & Nevill were in the bedroom.
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David I will respond to your posts later time permitting.
The high speed vid looks more like a bullet ricocheting back towards the shooter than a casing!? In any event you need to compare like for like.
Exactly... the Walther ejects casings all over the place because no deflector plate is fitted, unlike the Anschutz.
Just for Holly, without a single mens' monokini in sight, thank god... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ)
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What is wrong with providing alternative possibilities? no matter how unlikely. Its important to consider IMO.
The first two are being looked into. Ive passed them onto to those who can actually make something happen from them. What more can I do? I have done all I can as for as those are concerned.
TOD based on lividity, wet blood photos etc. I've never been given a credible argument to invalidate the idea. As it stands I have nothing more to do. CCRC have already got an answer/excuse for it.
Marks on NB's arm caused by fingernails. Not my idea or project. Its already been submitted back in 2004.
BTW this whole effort/investigation in my mind is to establish facts and help correct possible injustice. Its not a competition of who thought of what first. So stop being catty.
If you want to establish facts why are you so careless with them? Eg claiming the wet blood photos are authentic when bogus lawyer GDS and his cronies claim they were taken at a time before the police photographer even arrrived at WHF!? Claiming the marks on NB's arms were caused by fingernails when the pathologist refers to the marks and doesn't attribute them to fingernails. Claiming SC died significantly later than the other victims when all the expert evidence suggests otherwise: Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight.
Referring to me as "catty" is somewhat hypocritical when you spend hours, if not days, trawling through posters' posts to find something which contradicts their current position. How is this attempting to establish facts and help correct possible injustice? Who gives a flying fig what posters on an internet forum think? I just see it as an opportunity to debate the case and improve my overall understanding of it.
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Hopefully David will today provide his source that the bullet casings from the murder weapon travel to the right and bounce forcefully off walls. By source, I don't mean his own diagram.
Otherwise everyone has to agree the killer fired four bullets into Nevill while both were deep inside the bedroom. The casings ejecting forwards but remaining in the bedroom.
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Adam put those words in my mouth.
No I don't. Shell casings can and do bounce/richocet. Iv given you several forensic studies on this already. Maybe you have to see it to believe it?
(http://imgur.com/lypIzTD.gif)
Have you got anything further to support this vid? Commentary/ text? How do we know its casings and not bullets ricocheting back towards the shooter? If live bullets I can only assume the shooter had a death wish.
Some reconstructionists engage in a very simp
listic analysis, for instance, they may state
that the firearm the officer fired ejected its spent
cartridge cases to the right and the rear when the
firearm was fired on the range. Ther
efore, they continue further with their analysis by asserting
that when the officer fired, and when the spent ca
rtridge cases were ejecte
d, he/she had to be to
the left and to the front of the placement of
the spent cartridge cases. However, other
reconstructionists understanding the effects of
weapon manipulation, shooter movement, bounce
factors, and other elements, began to list and
accommodate for some of them. For example,
Edward Hueske has said that
reconstruction of an equivalent
shooting environment should take
into account the following eight variables: weapon design, weapon condition, ammunition type,
position weapon was held when fired, movement
of weapon during firing, how tightly the
weapon was held during firing, type of terrain
where shooting occurred, and the presence of
obstacles (Hueske, 2006)
http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
The word ricochet does not feature in the above. Bounce features twice. Is there a difference between ricochet and bounce in this context?
Any reconstruction will need to be based on the totality of the physical evidence. Casings are probably least reliable. The lack of bloodstaining and trajectories are potentially stronger imo.
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David I will respond to your posts later time permitting.
The high speed vid looks more like a bullet ricocheting back towards the shooter than a casing!? In any event you need to compare like for like.
Thought you might find this interesting (if you haven't already seen it) http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
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BTW I recreated the shots to Nevill via the anatomical position. Thought this would help. Beats the drawings made back in 1986.
Any trigometric calculations? How's that for catty? 8)--)) Meow, meow *&*%£
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/amjforensicmedicine/Abstract/2003/06000/Reconstruction_of_the_Angle_of_Shot_by_Using.10.aspx
The pathologist I contacted re June's gsw's:
Thanks for the reply – I have read Peter Vanezis’s description, which is rather sparse, as it is normal for the autopsy report to place the wounds more accurately by giving measures from adjacent anatomical land marks – and describing any abrasion collars around the entry, edge inversions etc and also a description of any burning, singing of hairs, propellant deposit etc, which are used to determine the range. However, I suppose he relied on the inevitable photographs that would have been taken. and the Home Office scientist seems to have covered that instead.
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Have you got anything further to support this vid? Commentary/ text? How do we know its casings and not bullets ricocheting back towards the shooter? If live bullets I can only assume the shooter had a death wish.
Of course the objects bouncing around are casings not bullets!!! Women have no sense of direction! Watch the first part of the video I posted showing a Walther being fired. The casings eject out of the top of the gun, not the side, and it isn't fitted with a deflector plate so they travel in various directions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ)
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Of course the objects bouncing around are casings not bullets!!! Women have no sense of direction! Watch the first part of the video I posted showing a Walther being fired. The casings eject out of the top of the gun, not the side, and it isn't fitted with a deflector plate so they travel in various directions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSRubFRdcQ)
I'm getting confused!
The objects in David's gif appear to leave the firearm and travel in a forward motion and ricochet back to the shooter along a very similar path. To my eye these look like bullets not casings?
The objects in your vid are, as you said, all over the place and are clearly casings?
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64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
Two of Nevill's upstairs shots were from inches away. This would be as he was either getting or had just got out of bed. The two related casings would be in the bedroom.
The arm shot would be as Nevill was fully standing up and moving to the door. Bamber retreating slightly and being less accurrate. This casing also landing in the bedroom.
The back/shoulder shot was after Nevill had got outside the bedroom. The casing being outside the bedroom door.
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Thought you might find this interesting (if you haven't already seen it) http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
Thanks. I've just quoted it above. You don't read my posts %#£%
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Whether it's a bullet or casing, it's David's diagram. So in no way a credible source that the casings travel to the right of the rifle and forcefully bounce off walls.
We have to go by David's 2015 independent source that the casings travel forward. Although it's doubtful 6 feet forward on such a low powered rifle. A couple of feet maybe.
I will be pleased to be proved wrong about the 6 feet issue as it just makes it more certain the killer & Nevill were in the bedroom.
Poor David. He tries his best ?{)(**
I haven't read anything about calibre affecting outcome of casing ejection/patterns?
MF's court testimony re casings below.
How reliable is MF based on his intro to the court about a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a boy counting towards his competence as a ballistics expert. The judge should have thrown this clown out.
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No one has ever said how Sheila was able to put the rifle within inches of Nevill's face for his first two shots.
These shots were after Nevill had called Bamber downstairs to say "Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun".
He either rushed upstairs unprotected after hearing bedroom shots, but did nothing except get shot in the face from inches away.
Or he walked up stairs & was caught by surprise. Not seeing Sheila move forward pointing a gun at his face. This is less likely after what he had said to Bamber.
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64. In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
Two of Nevill's upstairs shots were from inches away. This would be as he was either getting or had just got out of bed. The two related casings would be in the bedroom.
The arm shot would be as Nevill was fully standing up and moving to the door. Bamber retreating slightly and being less accurrate. This casing also landing in the bedroom.
The back/shoulder shot was after Nevill had got outside the bedroom. The casing being outside the bedroom door.
It's almost certain 6 of the 8 casings June's side of the bed, either on the bed or floor, relate to her gsw's. How the remaining 6 relate to June's head gsw's and NB's 4 so-called upstairs gsw's is imo unclear.
If NB was upright when he sustained the other gsw's how do you explain the downward trajectories when NB was taller than JB and SC?
It is necessary to pivot victims, perp, barrel and ejection port around in the mind's eye to test various theories.
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No one has ever said how Sheila was able to put the rifle within inches of Nevill's face for his first two shots.
These shots were after Nevill had called Bamber downstairs to say "Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun".
He either rushed upstairs unprotected after hearing bedroom shots, but did nothing except get shot in the face from inches away.
Or he walked up stairs & was caught by surprise. Not seeing Sheila move forward pointing a gun at his face. This is less likely after what he had said to Bamber.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
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I'm getting confused!
The objects in David's gif appear to leave the firearm and travel in a forward motion and ricochet back to the shooter along a very similar path. To my eye these look like bullets not casings?
The objects in your vid are, as you said, all over the place and are clearly casings?
Nope... definitely casings not bullets. The latter travel much faster and hit the target without rebounding.
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Nope... definitely casings not bullets. The latter travel much faster and hit the target without rebounding.
If they're casings how come they're ricocheting straight back to shooter?
If the vid is high speed it will allow us to observe the bullet being fired, hitting the target and ricocheting back before the ejected casings appear? The subsonic bullets used at WHF leave the muzzle at 1040 ft/s.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6883.msg293857#msg293857
This doesn't explain how Sheila was confident & lucky enough to move the rifle nozzle to within inches of his face. Or how Nevill allowed it to happen and did nothing.
It just says Nevill approached the main bedroom and was shot in the lip & jaw. Although the bullet casings were inside the bedroom.
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It's almost certain 6 of the 8 casings June's side of the bed, either on the bed or floor, relate to her gsw's. How the remaining 6 relate to June's head gsw's and NB's 4 so-called upstairs gsw's is imo unclear.
If NB was upright when he sustained the other gsw's how do you explain the downward trajectories when NB was taller than JB and SC?
It is necessary to pivot victims, perp, barrel and ejection port around in the mind's eye to test various theories.
Downward trajectories, Nevill was getting out of bed. Or hunching trying but failing to avoid getting shot in the face.
As mentioned Nevill was shot twice in the face. He was awake but had not had time to react. The nozzle being inches away from his face.
He was then shot in the arm as he started moving & then in the back as he attempted to escape a male gunman in the dark.
Seems straight forward.
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This doesn't explain how Sheila was confident & lucky enough to move the rifle nozzle to within inches of his face. Or how Nevill allowed it to happen and did nothing.
It just says Nevill approached the main bedroom and was shot in the lip & jaw. Although the bullet casings were inside the bedroom.
Well the "within inches" was estimated by MF. Based on his intro to the court re a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy is he a credible expert to be relied upon? Assuming he is and his estimates are reasonably accurate then it seems to me NB hearing the sound of gunshot whilst he was in the kitchen run upstairs and SC swung round from firing shots at June and the barrel of the rifle met NB's face on the upper of the two landing stairs putting one stair depth between NB and SC which would account for their difference in height and downward trajectory of NB's facial gsw's. What can anyone do when faced with someone in possession of a loaded firearm prepared to pull the trigger? For this to be the case the casing ejection port would need to remain in the bedroom with the right angle of the wall catching the casings dropping them to the ground or richocheting as per David's diagram.
As I've said before if the perp fired out onto the landing but the casing ejection port remained in the bedroom with the wall impeding the flight of the casings then casings can end up in the bedroom with NB sustaining his gsw's out of it. The rifle is 43" long. The bullet obviously comes out the end of the barrel and the casing ejection port is near the trigger pull.
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Downward trajectories, Nevill was getting out of bed. Or hunching trying but failing to avoid getting shot in the face.
As mentioned Nevill was shot twice in the face. He was awake but had not had time to react. The nozzle being inches away from his face.
He was then shot in the arm as he started moving & then in the back as he attempted to escape a male gunman in the dark.
Seems straight forward.
It's really not straight forward when you consider the parameters:
Distance of shots - within inches
Trajectories - approx 20 degrees below the horizontal
Wound tracks - straight from front to back
Are you able to put forward a credible theory as to how JB murdered his family including the casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks?
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It's really not straight forward when you consider the parameters:
Distance of shots - within inches
Trajectories - approx 20 degrees below the horizontal
Wound tracks - straight from front to back
Are you able to put forward a credible theory as to how JB murdered his family including the casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks?
My Bamber scenario has been up for years. And it does not include bouncing casings, 3am phone calls & men & women walking around WHF bare footed having a chat.
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My Bamber scenario has been up for years. And it does not include bouncing casings, 3am phone calls & men & women walking around WHF bare footed having a chat.
Should be worth a read them. Is it here?
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Should be worth a read them. Is it here?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6549.msg294956.html#msg294956
Page 1.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6549.msg294956.html#msg294956
Page 1.
Not too much forensic detail by way of ballistics and patholgical evidence but *&(+(+ anyway. I always enjoy reading your posts finding they have a slightly different twist 8)-)))
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Thanks. I've just quoted it above. You don't read my posts %#£%
Haven' read much on here in a while. I found the study while looking for something else, given that it is in the commonwealth. Are you suggesting she deliberately married someone from overseas to evade being brought back to court? I don't think so!
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If you want to establish facts why are you so careless with them? Eg claiming the wet blood photos are authentic when bogus lawyer GDS and his cronies claim they were taken at a time before the police photographer even arrrived at WHF!? Claiming the marks on NB's arms were caused by fingernails when the pathologist refers to the marks and doesn't attribute them to fingernails. Claiming SC died significantly later than the other victims when all the expert evidence suggests otherwise: Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight.
None of the expert evidence (Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight) suggests otherwise at all. We have had this argument enough times I don't intend on repeating it. You don't have to share the same view.
Referring to me as "catty" is somewhat hypocritical when you spend hours, if not days, trawling through posters' posts to find something which contradicts their current position. How is this attempting to establish facts and help correct possible injustice? Who gives a flying fig what posters on an internet forum think? I just see it as an opportunity to debate the case and improve my overall understanding of it.
Just to clear things up. I do not "spend hours, if not days, trawling through posters' posts". It all began when someone who has been on the forums a very long time PM'd me and pointed out to me that my efforts in debating Caroline were in vain by showing me lots of her older posts(If you don't believe me I have the PMs). Since Caroline and Jane J are on a relentless campaign to influence opinion and will even follow us to other forums, They have to be dealt with. Posting their old posts is not only easier/quicker than typing out a fresh reply it also demonstrates to other users that they not there to have an honest debate.
The only time I have spent days looking through someone's posts is going through Mikes ten thousand or more uploads looking for case evidence.
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Haven' read much on here in a while. I found the study while looking for something else, given that it is in the commonwealth. Are you suggesting she deliberately married someone from overseas to evade being brought back to court? I don't think so!
I'm sorry I don't understand your post. The authors of the link you uploaded re casing ejection patterns are from US which isn't part of the Commonwealth? If by "she" you mean JM I don't recall the thought even crossing my mind let alone posting about it?
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None of the expert evidence (Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight) suggests otherwise at all. We have had this argument enough times I don't intend on repeating it. You don't have to share the same view.
Just to clear things up. I do not "spend hours, if not days, trawling through posters' posts". It all began when someone who has been on the forums a very long time PM'd me and pointed out to me that my efforts in debating Caroline were in vain by showing me lots of her older posts(If you don't believe me I have the PMs). Since Caroline and Jane J are on a relentless campaign to influence opinion and will even follow us to other forums, They have to be dealt with. Posting their old posts is not only easier/quicker than typing out a fresh reply it also demonstrates to other users that they not there to have an honest debate.
The only time I have spent days looking through someone's posts is going through Mikes ten thousand or more uploads looking for case evidence.
Oh of course. I couldn't agree more. I'll hold them down and you tickle them ?>)()<.
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For every 1000 posts I read on Blue I come across something worthwhile:
Hartley posted the following vid which shows the casings ejecting:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrlfDPC_xs&feature=youtu.be
I think I can see the little deflector plate but I doubt the bullets are the same which might affect the outcome.
The above vid seems to show the casings ejecting to the East. Whereas the following vid seems to show them ejecting in a NW direction:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Is it possible someone who's good at these things can do something with this vid so we can see where the casings go when we observe the man firing?
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Oh of course. I couldn't agree more. I'll hold them down and you tickle them ?>)()<.
Ha!! And I'll give Nelly a friendly hair-ruffle!
Oops a daisy. 8(8-))
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Ha!! And I'll give Nelly a friendly hair-ruffle!
Oops a daisy. 8(8-))
DON'T STAMP ON IT!! It isn't a mutant guinea pig.
Nelly bought it on ebay when Bruce Forsyth was having a clear-out.
8)-)))
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DON'T STAMP ON IT!! It isn't a mutant guinea pig.
Nelly bought it on ebay when Bruce Forsyth was having a clear-out.
8)-)))
Toupee or not toupee.
Whether tis nobler to comb your last strands over
Or look like a smug, constipated thumb with a face drawn on.
Oh Calamity.
I will getteth my cloak.
-
Toupee or not toupee.
Whether tis nobler to comb your last strands over
Or look like a smug, constipated thumb with a face drawn on.
Oh Calamity.
I will getteth my cloak.
I saw what thou dideth there........... againeth!
-
For every 1000 posts I read on Blue I come across something worthwhile:
Hartley posted the following vid which shows the casings ejecting:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrlfDPC_xs&feature=youtu.be (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrlfDPC_xs&feature=youtu.be)
I think I can see the little deflector plate but I doubt the bullets are the same which might affect the outcome.
The above vid seems to show the casings ejecting to the East. Whereas the following vid seems to show them ejecting in a NW direction:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
Is it possible someone who's good at these things can do something with this vid so we can see where the casings go when we observe the man firing?
Try these three files labelled Anschutz (under WHF 3D)...
https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
The casing is the elongated blob in five positions.
For the Slideshow file, you need Irfanview installed (ideally set to loop the images).
The .jpg should show up in any image viewer. If you use Irfanview, then pressing on your keyboard + or - will increase or decrease the size respectively. The attachment below is the same .jpg file...
-
Try these three files labelled Anschutz (under WHF 3D)...
https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
The casing is the elongated blob in five positions.
For the Slideshow file, you need Irfanview installed (ideally set to loop the images).
The .jpg should show up in any image viewer. If you use Irfanview, then pressing on your keyboard + or - will increase or decrease the size respectively. The attachment below is the same .jpg file...
This video is no good because the shooter is facing a strong wind. Ideally it needs to be indoors.
-
Oh of course. I couldn't agree more. I'll hold them down and you tickle them ?>)()<.
Nah. They would probably enjoy that. 8(0(*
-
Try these three files labelled Anschutz (under WHF 3D)...
https://www.dropbox.com/home (https://www.dropbox.com/home)
The casing is the elongated blob in five positions.
For the Slideshow file, you need Irfanview installed (ideally set to loop the images).
The .jpg should show up in any image viewer. If you use Irfanview, then pressing on your keyboard + or - will increase or decrease the size respectively. The attachment below is the same .jpg file...
Thank you 8**8:/: but I was referring to the following vid:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Is it possible it can be slowed down or something so we can see where the casings land in the first part?
-
This video is no good because the shooter is facing a strong wind. Ideally it needs to be indoors.
"The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind". Which direction?
-
Nah. They would probably enjoy that. 8(0(*
Not half as much as I suspect you would 8(0(*
Seriously who cares what others think on internet forums? What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things? You will never get everyone to agree on anything. JB's case is no different.
-
Thank you 8**8:/: but I was referring to the following vid:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
Is it possible it can be slowed down or something so we can see where the casings land in the first part?
No, for starters it's only low definition and the camera is too far away. Even clicking on the Settings icon (gear symbol) and reducing the speed to 0.25, it's hard to see where any casings go. Sorry, and must dash!
-
Not half as much as I suspect you would 8(0(*
Seriously who cares what others think on internet forums? What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things? You will never get everyone to agree on anything. JB's case is no different.
I don't care what people think. There is a reason why I hardly engage with Mike, Lookout and Steve_uk.
-
None of the expert evidence (Dr Craig, Dr Vanezis, Prof Knight) suggests otherwise at all. We have had this argument enough times I don't intend on repeating it. You don't have to share the same view.
Just to clear things up. I do not "spend hours, if not days, trawling through posters' posts". It all began when someone who has been on the forums a very long time PM'd me and pointed out to me that my efforts in debating Caroline were in vain by showing me lots of her older posts(If you don't believe me I have the PMs). Since Caroline and Jane J are on a relentless campaign to influence opinion and will even follow us to other forums, They have to be dealt with. Posting their old posts is not only easier/quicker than typing out a fresh reply it also demonstrates to other users that they not there to have an honest debate.
The only time I have spent days looking through someone's posts is going through Mikes ten thousand or more uploads looking for case evidence.
For gods sake David, give your obsession a rest.
-
Nah. They would probably enjoy that. 8(0(*
The very fact we share the same air - turns my stomach.
-
I don't care what people think. There is a reason why I hardly engage with Mike, Lookout and Steve_uk.
I've previously suggested here and on IA we look at the SoC in kitchen and twins room in terms of bloodstaining, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. This might help find patterns in terms of ejected casings and the way in which the perp tended to hold the firearm and assist our understanding of the SoC on landing, main stairs and master bedroom too.
David I have started off numerous threads over recent months. You last started one nearly a year ago:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=ukrcm5092qmatv6trbmlpgtd07&topic=7316.msg338527#msg338527
So how's about you starting off two new threads? If for whatever reason(s) you don't want to take this forward then perhaps Samson would? Samson you have yet to start a thread? Perhaps you could do one each and this will keep you both out of mischief 8((()*/
-
Thank you 8**8:/: but I was referring to the following vid:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo)
Is it possible it can be slowed down or something so we can see where the casings land in the first part?
Discovered a method of making an animated gif with the latest Anschutz video, for whatever use it might be.
From the point where it leaves the ejection port to the lower far right of the frame...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Discovered a method of making an animated gif with the latest Anschutz video, for whatever use it might be.
From the point where it leaves the ejection port to the lower far right of the frame...
ooooooooo thanks that's clever 8**8:/: So def eject to the right unless they were thrown off course by the wind.
-
ooooooooo thanks that's clever 8**8:/: So def eject to the right unless they were thrown off course by the wind.
Larger version available here... https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif (https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif)
-
Larger version available here... https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif (https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif)
Thanks Myster. They do seem to travel in an easterly direction as opposed to the other vid you posted ages ago which seems to show them travelling in a north easterly direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
Maybe down to any wind.
-
The CoA has a long history of calling it wrong over long running MoJ's. JB's case is no different in this respect:
This is what was said about other MoJ's at first and second appeal hearings:
Stefan Kizsko
"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory. The appeal is dismissed". Lord Justice Bridge.
Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Sally Clarke
"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."
Guildford Four
"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".
"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.
Birmingham 6
"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".
"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory. The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".
Sam Hallam
"In 2007 there was a failed appeal with the judges holding that the evidence of the witnesses could still be relied upon".
What makes you think Stephen Downing is innocent?
He confessed when his conviction was quashed on a technicality and after being released from prison!
Stephen Downing, not unlike Barry George, remains the prime suspect!
-
.
-
I actually wrote to SL on this subject a few years ago, just checked my email and it's still there. This is what he said but it's not very convincing ..... By the way, I have left the time and date stamp but have not included email addresses.
"Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:54 Subject:
Re: Bamber Case (Shotgun Finger Prints)
Hi Caroline, Thank you for your email. You are probably best contacting the Bamber campaign as they have greater access to the documents. I have seen the relevant document but don't have a copy. I am not convinced it is strictly relevant to what happened that night. I am not sure what the document reference is - I wrote the book in 2004 which is when I saw the document, so I can't recall its contents. There will be references to it in my notes but I don't have time to go through them all. So it is best you get in touch with the campaign."
Scott Lomax has today tweeted the following;
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
1h
Pleased to announce my Jeremy Bamber book has now been released as a paperback by
@TheHistoryPress https://amazon.co.uk/dp/0750994711/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2JB5T0D2XA2DX&keywords=scott+lomax&qid=1578646595&sprefix=scott+lomax%2Caps%2C168&sr=8-2… #jeremybamber #whitehousefarm #itv
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215584278660206592
I've recently been flicking through Scott Lomax again. This book is woeful. I realised this first time I read it very quickly but going over it again there are just so many errors.
Page 185:
This is consistent with her having taken Procyclidene in the afternoon and therefore the drowsiness she might have experienced as a result of her very low dosage of Haloperidol would have been counteracted by her very low dosage of Procyclidene.
There's no evidence SC had taken Procyclidene. The pathology report and toxicology reports only mention cannabis and Haloperidol.
It appears the level of Haloperidol in SC's system 15ng/1ml blood falls into the low range of MODERATE.
How can an author write a book and not even check the most basic facts? Surely anyone writing a book about WHF would read very carefully the pathology report?
I have no interest in discussing this further just wanted to highlight what a complete numpty this guy is.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=698
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
SC had been prescribed Procyclidene but no trace of such was found in her biological samples at TOD.
-
Scott Lomax has today tweeted the following;
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
1h
Pleased to announce my Jeremy Bamber book has now been released as a paperback by
@TheHistoryPress https://amazon.co.uk/dp/0750994711/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2JB5T0D2XA2DX&keywords=scott+lomax&qid=1578646595&sprefix=scott+lomax%2Caps%2C168&sr=8-2… #jeremybamber #whitehousefarm #itv
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215584278660206592
Interesting how also today Lookout over on blue has stated; here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469622.html#msg469622 and here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469634.html#msg469634
Lookout Reply #1139 on: Today at 01:47 PM »
Walk away ::) Or do what I'm doing-----ordering Scott Lomax's latest book, a paperback @ £14.99.
Lookout Reply #1146 on: Today at 02:20 PM »
It appears to be more up to date as a follow-up from his original book since more information became available. I gather he's in touch with the legal side of the CT team by his remark--- quote," Every aspect of the prosecution's case can be dismantled "unquote.
Of course there’s no evidence to suggest Scott Lomax is ‘in touch with the legal side of the CT team by his remark’ but he did tweet the following in response to his tweet about the release of his book in paperback.
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
59m
I should add this is a long-held view but one I did not reach lightly. I kept an open mind but the evidence, which the jury never saw, was compelling. Every aspect of the prosecution's case can be dismantled.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215584278660206592
There’s of course also no evidence to suggest the book has been revised nor is it a follow-up to the original book since it was written back in 2004 but I guess there’s no real harm done by suggesting otherwise or by lying in what appears to be an attempt to deceive others
-
Interesting how also today Lookout over on blue has stated; here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469622.html#msg469622 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469622.html#msg469622) and here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469634.html#msg469634 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg469634.html#msg469634)
Lookout Reply #1139 on: Today at 01:47 PM »
Walk away ::) Or do what I'm doing-----ordering Scott Lomax's latest book, a paperback @ £14.99.
Lookout Reply #1146 on: Today at 02:20 PM »
It appears to be more up to date as a follow-up from his original book since more information became available. I gather he's in touch with the legal side of the CT team by his remark--- quote," Every aspect of the prosecution's case can be dismantled "unquote.
Of course there’s no evidence to suggest Scott Lomax is ‘in touch with the legal side of the CT team by his remark’ but he did tweet the following in response to his tweet about the release of his book in paperback.
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
59m
I should add this is a long-held view but one I did not reach lightly. I kept an open mind but the evidence, which the jury never saw, was compelling. Every aspect of the prosecution's case can be dismantled.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215584278660206592 (https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215584278660206592)
There’s of course also no evidence to suggest the book has been revised nor is it a follow-up to the original book since it was written back in 2004 but I guess there’s no real harm done by suggesting otherwise or by lying in what appears to be an attempt to deceive others
It's only a paperback version of the original and I've no intention of reading further crap from a diehard Bamber supporter... Bamber's guilty, end of!
-
It's only a paperback version of the original and I've no intention of reading further crap from a diehard Bamber supporter... Bamber's guilty, end of!
I don’t believe Scott Lomax is a ‘diehard Bamber supporter’ I think he saw an opportunity way back when and took it.
The thing is, people like Lomax can say things like, “I have come to the view that he is innocent” but it doesn’t mean privately he believes this.
Saying for example, ‘I have come to the view he is guilty‘ isn’t exactly going to sell his book and he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by sticking to an innocence stance.
-
It's only a paperback version of the original and I've no intention of reading further crap from a diehard Bamber supporter... Bamber's guilty, end of!
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
8h
#WhiteHouseFarm Great news,
@SCLomax’s book certainly clarified things for me. Good move @SCLomax
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/with_replies
I find it interesting Bamber supporters are currently promoting a 15 plus year out of date book yet have stated what they have about the current ITV drama series.
Lomax has today asked via twitter,
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
5h
If the police believed Sheila Caffell to be dead, why did they use a loudhailer for two hours trying to make contact with her? Why did a police officer, when he heard movement in the house, shout to Sheila?
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215621250908815361
Are we to really believe Scott Lomax has never considered the fact Bamber had been so convincing?
It was the middle of the night in rural Essex and Bamber had set the scene... What did he initially tell the police about Crispy the dog and when were they made aware of his presence inside the house? Or did they only learn of Crispy when the raid team entered and found his cowering under the bed?
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
1h
Replying to
@GrumpyGran1948
and
@tru68
Scott Lomax, he also wrote about Barry's case. He has a forensic mind. #WhiteHouseFarm
-
The telephone operator who was asked to open the line within the farm heard a dog barking.
-
The telephone operator who was asked to open the line within the farm heard a dog barking.
Yes she did but Bamber chose to not shoot the dog so what did he tell the police about Crispy when he was outside the house with the police etc?
27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm. A check made by a British Telecom operator of the telephone line to the farm was made at 4.30 a.m. The receiver was off the hook and all the operator could hear was the sound of a dog barking
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
If Scott Lomax had a ‘forensic mind’ as suggested by Michelle Diskin Bates wouldn’t he have considered the movement heard inside the house was that of Crispy the dog?
-
Yes she did but Bamber chose to not shoot the dog so what did he tell the police about Crispy when he was outside the house with the police etc?
I don't think he mentioned anything about Crispy inside, but only said that his dad would have been out of the house like a shot if their outdoor labrador barked at any disturbance or spotted a fox in the yard. I know in his youth Bamber had his own pet dog which got run over and he was inconsolable, allegedly.
-
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
1h
Replying to
@GrumpyGran1948
and
@tru68
Scott Lomax, he also wrote about Barry's case. He has a forensic mind. #WhiteHouseFarm
he also wrote about Simon Halls case https://therealmrshspoofblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/13/simon-halls-fight-for-freedom-by-scott-lomax/
I don't think he mentioned anything about Crispy inside, but only said that his dad would have been out of the house like a shot if their outdoor labrador barked at any disturbance or spotted a fox in the yard. I know in his youth Bamber had his own pet dog which got run over and he was inconsolable, allegedly.
Did Bamber or the police hear Crispy barking when they were outside the house?
-
I don't think he mentioned anything about Crispy inside, but only said that his dad would have been out of the house like a shot if their outdoor labrador barked at any disturbance or spotted a fox in the yard. I know in his youth Bamber had his own pet dog which got run over and he was inconsolable, allegedly.
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
-
Did Bamber or the police hear Crispy barking when they were outside the house?
And when was Bamber told about the BT operator checking the phone line and the only noise heard was Crispy barking?
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
As Adam has highlighted on Blue why did Bamber suggest to the police Crispy may have shot Sheila a second time?
Page 168: "Collins and Delgado began using a loud hailer to address Sheila. They attempted to make contact with the house for approximately two hours, but the only response was Crispy, yapping frantically inside the property"
Page 181: "A relief officer approached with Crispy in his arms. Jeremy eyed his mother's dog and declared: 'I hate that f*****g thing.' He suggested the dogs should go with them but Jeremy shook his head: 'I can't take them to my house, it's too small and I've got some very expensive furniture, I don't want them to ruin it. I'll have to get them put down.' When Jones remonstrated with him, he decided to take Crispy home and put Bruce in the barn.
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
Have you asked him?
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
May be worthwhile remembering murderers like Jeremy Bamber are wired differently therefore his reasoning for not shooting Crispy* may not make logical sense
* Crispy was a she not a he
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
If only dogs could talk.
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
Re his hatred toward Crispy
Such was the callous indifference this monster displayed towards this poor creature. There were suggestions that Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson had volunteered to 'adopt' Crispy, but Bamber ignored her.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=919.msg34337#msg34337
-
If only dogs could talk.
Page 189: "Crispy kept clambering onto everyone's laps and Jeremy remarked: 'If only dogs could talk'".
-
I remember reading somewhere that JB hated Crispy. I wonder why he didn't shoot him too.
I've never understood this question. Why would Bamber waste a bullet, possibly two, on an old, terrified little dog who would have been cowering and hiding from all of the terrible noise and panic? Crispy was a Shih Tzu, not a trained Rottweiler.
-
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
8h
#WhiteHouseFarm Great news,
@SCLomax’s book certainly clarified things for me. Good move @SCLomax
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/with_replies
I find it interesting Bamber supporters are currently promoting a 15 plus year out of date book yet have stated what they have about the current ITV drama series.
Lomax has today asked via twitter,
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
5h
If the police believed Sheila Caffell to be dead, why did they use a loudhailer for two hours trying to make contact with her? Why did a police officer, when he heard movement in the house, shout to Sheila?
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215621250908815361
Are we to really believe Scott Lomax has never considered the fact Bamber had been so convincing?
It was the middle of the night in rural Essex and Bamber had set the scene... What did he initially tell the police about Crispy the dog and when were they made aware of his presence inside the house? Or did they only learn of Crispy when the raid team entered and found his cowering under the bed?
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
1h
Replying to
@GrumpyGran1948
and
@tru68
Scott Lomax, he also wrote about Barry's case. He has a forensic mind. #WhiteHouseFarm
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
I must buy a new copy of @ScottLomax3 ’s re-released book about the truth of #WhiteHouseFarm and Jeremy Bamber. Can you put up a link, Scott?
10:42 PM · Jan 10, 2020·Twitter for iPad
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1215765903972892672
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
“A couple of days later Michelle featured in an Irish evening newspaper,and appeared to dismiss Scott’s book, saying that a book would not get Barry out. I was disappointed by the dismissal....”
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=barry+george+scott+lomax&source=bl&ots=OsAb9RF0bH&sig=ACfU3U2vPUZj1WyEEq6lu9Tgf_3tYvC3UA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSv8DsmvrmAhXjoXEKHQw6AuwQ6AEwCHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20scott%20lomax&f=false
Courtesy of Mike Bourke (Uncle of Michelle Diskin Bates)
-
Page 189: "Crispy kept clambering onto everyone's laps and Jeremy remarked: 'If only dogs could talk'".
Suspect Bamber felt pleasure when making comments like this and felt in control having then believed he’d manipulated them all prior to his arrest. Psychopaths feel powerful when they lie.
-
May be worthwhile remembering murderers like Jeremy Bamber are wired differently therefore his reasoning for not shooting Crispy* may not make logical sense
* Crispy was a she not a he
Taken from the blue forum here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10110.msg470092.html#msg470092
”Q. Will you accept from me that she did not kill herself?
R. Not really.
Q. I will tell you she has two shots fired into her and I understand that either or both would have been fatal, now what do you have to say?
R. I can't really comment can I.
Q. You must agree that if the first bullet wound was fatal she could not have shot another one into herself. Is that right?
R. No. I don't believe that.
Q. What don't you believe?
R. Automatic gun, nerves, anything could have triggered the gun again. The dog, I think your right but you sound so 100%
Q. What do you mean 100%
R. You say its impossible.
Q. You are not saying the dog pulled the trigger for the second one are you?
R. I'm not saying anything, but nothing's impossible.
Q. You said anything could have triggered the second shot off and you mentioned the dog are you saying that after Shiela had been shot once the dog came along and pulled the trigger for the second shot?
R. No, it was only an idea, the dog was in the house.
Q. I suggest you knew where the dog was that night, that is why you mentioned the dog. It was found in the room that morning near the bodies. Did you know that?
R. You told me that.
Q. Do you accept that Shiela couldn't have shot herself two times?
R. No.
Q. You don't accept. it?
R. No, but it is probably right.
Q. You know its right don't you?
R. No."
And only someone like Jeremy Bamber would make up such nonsense about the dog
-
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
8h
#WhiteHouseFarm Great news,
@SCLomax’s book certainly clarified things for me. Good move @SCLomax
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/with_replies
I find it interesting Bamber supporters are currently promoting a 15 plus year out of date book yet have stated what they have about the current ITV drama series.
Lomax has today asked via twitter,
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
5h
If the police believed Sheila Caffell to be dead, why did they use a loudhailer for two hours trying to make contact with her? Why did a police officer, when he heard movement in the house, shout to Sheila?
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1215621250908815361
Are we to really believe Scott Lomax has never considered the fact Bamber had been so convincing?
It was the middle of the night in rural Essex and Bamber had set the scene... What did he initially tell the police about Crispy the dog and when were they made aware of his presence inside the house? Or did they only learn of Crispy when the raid team entered and found his cowering under the bed?
🎀 Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
1h
Replying to
@GrumpyGran1948
and
@tru68
Scott Lomax, he also wrote about Barry's case. He has a forensic mind. #WhiteHouseFarm
Sept 2008 by Tom Parker for the Essex County Standard
“Bamber has always maintained an unknown third party could also have been responsible, and claimed the jury should have been told of the theory.“
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/3694499.essex-bamber-murder-new-book/
Would be interested to hear Mark Newbys thoughts on the ‘fictional narrative’ placed in the ‘public domain’ by Bamber and his campaign team
What does Mark Newby make of all the contradictions made?
Jeremy Bamber
@FreeBamberNow
Jan 24, 2014
Does the media help miscarriages of justice? by Paul May
@JusticeGap
http://thejusticegap.com/2013/01/what’s-the-media-ever-done-for-us/
@Bambertweets
Trudi Benjamin
@tru68
Replying to
@FloKrause
@FloKrause
@JusticeGap
@FreeBamberNow
@Bambertweets
#bobwoffinden can't get his facts straight about #jeremybamber http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=bob+woffinden…
9:37 AM · Jan 24, 2014·Twitter Web Client
https://mobile.twitter.com/tru68/status/426649902081253376
And what does Trudi Benjamin make of Bambers contradictory narrative over the years?
-
Sept 2008 by Tom Parker for the Essex County Standard
“Bamber has always maintained an unknown third party could also have been responsible, and claimed the jury should have been told of the theory.“
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/3694499.essex-bamber-murder-new-book/
And what does Trudi Benjamin make of Bambers contradictory narrative over the years?
Has Michelle Diskin Bates told Trudi Benjamin and Bambers CT how she threatened Scott Lomax with legal action?
Mike Bourke uncle of Barry George and Michelle Diskin Bates
“I was later told that there were threats of legal action over the article and I let it be known that if so I would be a witness for the defendants. Fortunately that Pandora’s Box was never opened”
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=Then+there+was+the+body+charged+with+monitoring+Barry+and+smoothing+his+path+back+into+society+under+a+Multi+Agency+Public+Protection+Agreement&source=bl&ots=Osy89OF-cJ&sig=ACfU3U0zgkLRZxktkcCyj-B_-VTf-1st0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP_uOK-dvhAhWssKQKHT4IBzYQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Then%20there%20was%20the%20body%20charged%20with%20monitoring%20Barry%20and%20smoothing%20his%20path%20back%20into%20society%20under%20a%20Multi%20Agency%20Public%20Protection%20Agreement&f=false
What does Scott Lomax make of it all I wonder.
Threats of legal action one minute then she’s promoting one of his books
-
If only dogs could talk.
Haven't I seen this somewhere before?
-
Haven't I seen this somewhere before?
If you are referring to ‘Rusty’ then yes you have
2 posts beneath the one you quoted
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8094.msg569182#msg569182
-
Sept 2008 by Tom Parker for the Essex County Standard
https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/3694499.essex-bamber-murder-new-book/
And what does Trudi Benjamin make of Bambers contradictory narrative over the years?
“An author who questioned the guilt of the man jailed for killing TV presenter Jill Dando has written a book about notorious Essex murderer Jeremy Bamber.
Doubts raised in books by Scott Lomax about the case against Barry George were proved well-founded when the 48-year-old was cleared at a retrial, seven years after his conviction.
The crime writer has now turned his attention to investigating the case of Bamber, 47, who is in prison for life for shooting dead five members of his family at White House Farm in Tolleshunt D’Arcy back in 1985.
He interviewed Bamber in prison and has extensively questioned the man who was dubbed “callous,” “wicked” and “evil, almost beyond belief” by the judge at his trial.
At the trial of Bamber - who a judge ruled earlier this year should never be released - the jury was told the only other possible culprit for the killings was one of the five dead, Sheila Caffell, who might possibly have killed her adoptive parents and two sons before shooting herself.
Bamber has always maintained an unknown third party could also have been responsible, and claimed the jury should have been told of the theory
Michelle Diskin Bates Retweeted
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
23h
Every one of the key prosecution witnesses at Jeremy Bamber's trial gained financially from his conviction. Trial jury never knew this.
12:57 PM · Feb 23, 2020·Twitter for iPad