Madeleine McCann is the world's most famous missing person. Her disappearance ten years ago has been investigated by police forces in two different countries, but they came up with contradictory conclusions. So what really happened to Madeleine in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1
I am stacking this because I think we will be discussing this in the near future.
I believe that only today I told Britain's finest to eff-off. When I say Britain's finest, I do not mean OG, I mean the Panorama producer. He was getting the basics wrong.
Quite why the producer was doing this, and at such a late stage, je ne sais pas.
It looks like my jantar tonight is to be humble pie. I have no problem with this. Well done, humble pie can be extremely tasty.
Heri, if you read this, many thanks for your heads-up. It is much appreciated in my neck of the woods. And it is nowt to do with you that I am tucking into humble pie tonight. You did feed me the connection a while back.
How is the weather in your locality at the moment? I am running a test so this is important. I have been informed it was minus 3 in Holland overnight, when we had a low of 16C. From my memories of your most excellent location, I assume it would be almost as cold overnight as Holland
It is 6.15 my time, 7.15 your time. In Luz, it is 20C, no cloud, no wind. And yes, weather station Luz is important.
Thank you for the link, Heri.
The sky programme will be similarPanorama will broadcast that which it wishes.
What you have to realise is taht portugal media can tell lies against the mccanns with impunity....they have been fooled by amaral and the pj.
This programmme looked at the facts...the sky programme will look at the facts...not amarals fantasy
Panorama will broadcast that which it wishes.
I have been communicating with someone who claims to be the producer, but thus far has not provided proof. If he really is the producer, then you are going to get a blockbuster.
Since I have not been given confirmation to prove his position, I suspect you are going to get another damp squib.
I would suggest that if someone has contacted SIL claiming to be from Panorama then it is someone simply having a laugh and telling them to eff off is the best course of action.Are you now raising your head above the parapet? Surely you must have worked out from the exchanges of the last 3 days that I am on the hunt.
Are you now raising your head above the parapet? Surely you must have worked out from the exchanges of the last 3 days that I am on the hunt.This post is another that makes no sense to me whatsoever.
8((()*/
This post is another that makes no sense to me whatsoever.Don't worry, it's my job how to work out how to cook.
no it hasnt...it was an accurate version of events for once...if you disagree point out where it wasnt
There will be an official statement by Grange on Tuesday April 25 or Wednesday April 26.
Thanks again, Heri.
Well, this should prove interesting.How many more sleeps have we got?
How many more sleeps have we got?8((()*/
How many more sleeps have we got?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1
I am stacking this because I think we will be discussing this in the near future.
ONE. Or maybe two. Must go out and buy some tobacco before I totally stress out.And SY making an announcement at the same time, it is getting better than Christmas.
It is possible that myself appear on Panorama Special on 10th Anniversary. Just a few words.
It is possible that myself appear on Panorama Special on 10th Anniversary. Just a few words.
One important person on the documentary will be Pedro do Carmo from Polícia Judiciária.
Ah yes, Summers and Swan.
Two more people who have tried to make money from this case.
I wonder how much they were paid for this article.
"There is a coterie which shows contempt for anyone and anything with a positive outlook on Madeleine McCann ... even ridiculing on occasion those who express the hope she may be alive.
Don't you think that ten years into such self destructive venom ... ENOUGH!!"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5764.msg401422#msg401422
Can't help but add though ... among the first to make money out of Madeleine McCann's disappearance were Paulo Cristóvão and Goncalo Amaral.
Both also built careers on Portuguese media doing the same.
I assume you mean through their literary efforts.
Plenty of cash rolled into the McCann coffers before that.
How droll.
Comparisons between money to find a missing child and money to finance the purchase of diamond earings are incompatible ... but that may just be me.
It's noticeable how comments about 'cash rolling into the Fund' never include mention of any of the hundreds of thousands of £s which the McCanns could have put into their own private bank accounts - but chose to put into the fund instead.
The ability of some to totally ignore that massive elephant in the room is bizarre IMO.
It's noticeable how comments about 'cash rolling into the Fund' never include mention of any of the hundreds of thousands of £s which the McCanns could have put into their own private bank accounts - but chose to put into the fund instead.
The ability of some to totally ignore that massive elephant in the room is bizarre IMO.
In my opinion it stems from Amaral's inability to understand that money donated in good will to a good cause could be used for anything other than self gain.
I think it is a measure of the man.
In my opinion it stems from Amaral's inability to understand that money donated in good will to a good cause could be used for anything other than self gain.He certainly puts up a lot of different options.
I think it is a measure of the man.
Ruibbish.
How much of the money has been spoent on searching ?
How much has been spent, or has yet to be spent on legal expenses, or other outgoings, such as travel expenses and hotel accomodation (5 star naturally).
no disrespect to little maddie but why all the focus on her why did/does the media go crazy about her and not other missing children/teenagers? our australian media never mentions any other uk missing children only maddie all children are special and valued for example why doesnt ben have wall to wall articles and documentrys??
no disrespect to little maddie but why all the focus on her why did/does the media go crazy about her and not other missing children/teenagers? our australian media never mentions any other uk missing children only maddie all children are special and valued for example why doesnt ben have wall to wall articles and documentrys??
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtpH66b3SjCNWv25ilOtH-cWKgbi6Fl1esVnh-p_aX4sHVCnOi)
William Tyrell is Australian ... he has disappeared ... he is much loved and missed ... what please, has the campaign to find Madeleine McCann taken from the campaign to find William Tyrell or any other missing child?
Indeed Carly, it seems all about Madeleine, or is it all about protecting her parents.
Very few other children get a look in, unless an attempt to compare is made, and these invariably fall short.
no disrespect to little maddie but why all the focus on her why did/does the media go crazy about her and not other missing children/teenagers? our australian media never mentions any other uk missing children only maddie all children are special and valued for example why doesnt ben have wall to wall articles and documentrys??
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtpH66b3SjCNWv25ilOtH-cWKgbi6Fl1esVnh-p_aX4sHVCnOi)
William Tyrell is Australian ... he has disappeared ... he is much loved and missed ... what please, has the campaign to find Madeleine McCann taken from the campaign to find William Tyrell or any other missing child?
The comparison may not lie in the efforts made by a missing child's parents to find him or her. The comparison may lie in the initial policing effort during the golden hours.
The Tyrell family and all families of British missing children can rest easy in the safe knowledge that all that was humanly possible was done on the behalf of the missing by competent policing.
Madeleine McCann was written off by the Amaral investigation hours into her disappearance ... he proudly claims the fact in Ch1 in his book.
The families of most missing children do not have to conduct their own investigation because the police didn't.
Madeleine McCann's family did.
Today in The Sun special pull out article by Summers and Swan (in paper).
Maybe anyone of you could scan it for the forum?
Thanks in advance.
There were seven arguidos in the case. All their status of arguido were lifted, according to Rowley. But two of them seems to be in a special status now, and maybe Summers and Swan explain it in The Sun. So I ask you again: maybe anyone of you could scan the article for the forum?
There were seven arguidos in the case. All their status of arguido were lifted, according to Rowley. But two of them seems to be in a special status now, and maybe Summers and Swan explain it in The Sun. So I ask you again: maybe anyone of you could scan the article for the forum?
There were seven arguidos in the case. All their status of arguido were lifted, according to Rowley. But two of them seems to be in a special status now, and maybe Summers and Swan explain it in The Sun. So I ask you again: maybe anyone of you could scan the article for the forum?
is this it
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3441991/madeleine-mccann-definitive-case-file-trolls-dna-blunders-intruder/
I don't live in the past ... I live looking to the future and where it is possible to make a difference.
Thanks davel. Maybe. But I was told a more lenghty article is in paper, but really do not know for sure.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1)
Madeleine McCann: 10 Years On
Panorama
Madeleine McCann is the world's most famous missing person. Her disappearance ten years ago has been investigated by police forces in two different countries, but they came up with contradictory conclusions. So what really happened to Madeleine in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz?
Reporter Richard Bilton, who has covered the story for the BBC since the first days, examines the evidence and tracks down the men British police have questioned about the case.
Thanks davel. Maybe. But I was told a more lenghty article is in paper, but really do not know for sure.
I wonder when it will dawn on some, that there is no evidence of abduction, that can't be explained by other scenarios.When will it dawn on you that if the parents are not involved abduction is proved by deduction
The sheer lack of forensic evidence to show a third party in the apartment that night is pivotal.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtpH66b3SjCNWv25ilOtH-cWKgbi6Fl1esVnh-p_aX4sHVCnOi)
William Tyrell is Australian ... he has disappeared ... he is much loved and missed ... what please, has the campaign to find Madeleine McCann taken from the campaign to find William Tyrell or any other missing child?
is this it
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3441991/madeleine-mccann-definitive-case-file-trolls-dna-blunders-intruder/
The McCanns, one of their friends said later, had been the “most strict” of them all about making the checks.
The Sun appears to accept this claim as sacrosanct but the evidence tells a different story as Madeleine was heard to cry for over an hour on a previous night by the homeowner who resided permanently above the holiday apartment.
This is going to be another disappointment for the sceptics. if the evidence is loked at then there is no evience of the involvement of the parents and unless maddie closed the curtain ...the patio door and the gate when she wandered off then she was abducted
Again you are posting uncorroborated claims as fact Dave. There is no evidence the gates were closed.
an uncorroborated report of crying
Corroborated by the friend Mrs Fenn telephoned wondering what she should do about such a distressing situation. That's the difference you see, this event is witnessed.
Corroborated by the friend Mrs Fenn telephoned wondering what she should do about such a distressing situation. That's the difference you see, this event was corroborated by at least two independent witnesses.
It seems Mrs Fenn didn't say anything to Madeleine's parents at the time for fear of distressing them further. I'm quite sure she was disgusted at their total disregard for their children's needs. The same disgust apparently shared by Kate's own mother when she was told what they had done.
Kate telephoned her family to say the window was open
my take is mrs fenn may ahve been mistaken as to the length of the crying.
She was very specific so no doubt was watching the time while deciding what to do.
Kate telephoned her family to say the window was openIt could have been longer if you're going to go down the road of shorter.
my take is mrs fenn may ahve been mistaken as to the length of the crying.
It could have been longer if you're going to go down the road of shorter.
mrs fenn just raises the possibility of abductionHow,the alleged crying was a couple of nights earlier.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1)
Madeleine McCann: 10 Years On
Panorama
Madeleine McCann is the world's most famous missing person. Her disappearance ten years ago has been investigated by police forces in two different countries, but they came up with contradictory conclusions. So what really happened to Madeleine in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz?
Reporter Richard Bilton, who has covered the story for the BBC since the first days, examines the evidence and tracks down the men British police have questioned about the case.
Given that there hasn't been any reward on offer for finding Madeleine for many years it begs the question...WHY?A million dollar reward for info leading to the discovery of the wherabouts of William Tyrell hasn't produced results, so that begs the question why are you so keen for a similar reward in this case?
How,the alleged crying was a couple of nights earlier.But it is possible that the couple seen entering the McCann apartment a night or two earlier came back again.
I just hope for their own sakes that these men didn't take the BBC's grubby blood money and told them to do one! These men do not deserve to have their lives and the lives of their family wrecked by parasite reporters whose only aim is to make a fast buck on the back of Madeleine stories.Do yoy think investigative journalism is a bad thing? Do you not wish to know anything about these men? If not then I strongly recommend you boycott this programme, refuse to watch it and ban all discussion of it on this forum. Anything less would be hypocrisy on your part.
But it is possible that the couple seen entering the McCann apartment a night or two earlier came back again.Cite please.
Do yoy think investigative journalism is a bad thing? Do you not wish to know anything about these men? If not then I strongly recommend you boycott this programme, refuse to watch it and ban all discussion of it on this forum. Anything less would be hypocrisy on your part.
Cite please.I did a thread about who entered the apartment on the forum. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7824.0
Didn't Rowley say the latest arguidos are innocent. If so what the hell is the BBC doing chasing them? They weren't very adept at rooting out their own paedophile presenters.
Didn't Rowley say the latest arguidos are innocent. If so what the hell is the BBC doing chasing them? They weren't very adept at rooting out their own paedophile presenters.
Didn't Rowley say the latest arguidos are innocent. If so what the hell is the BBC doing chasing them? They weren't very adept at rooting out their own paedophile presenters.Innocent? I thought once an arguido, even an ex-arguido, one was not in the clear... &%+((£
I'd buy a couple of tickets for the confrontation between the investigative journalist and the pig farmer.The pig farmer was never an arguido. He did have a tactic for dealing with confrontational door-steppers, not that I would recommend it or condone it.
The pig farmer was never an arguido. He did have a tactic for dealing with confrontational door-steppers, not that I would recommend it or condone it.
@)(++(*
The pig farmer was never an arguido. He did have a tactic for dealing with confrontational door-steppers, not that I would recommend it or condone it.
@)(++(*
@)(++(* did he get his gun out??Complete with roll-up dangling from his lips.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2866881/11-people-quizzed-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-include-Robert-Murat-cleared-wrongdoing-wife.htmlKey phrase. As a witness. Not as an arguido.
Marques was interviewed again, as a witness, by SY & the PJ, in 2014 as a person of "high interest".
Key phrase. As a witness. Not as an arguido.
Where does it say "arguido" in the list of people Panorama tracked down?I can't remember if it does or doesn't, of the of my top head. Alice suggested the pig farmer was an arguido. I simply pointed out that intel suggest he was a witness in Dec 2014, not an arguido in Jul 2014.
I can't remember if it does or doesn't, of the of my top head. Alice suggested the pig farmer was an arguido. I simply pointed out that intel suggest he was a witness in Dec 2014, not an arguido in Jul 2014.
The debate was along the lines of OK-to-stepfront-Brenda v wrong-to-conduct-agreed-interviews-with-arguidos.
But the multiple topics may not be helping.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08pmtb1To clarify, I don't think door-stepping (which seems to the phrase pf the week) has owt to do with Panorama. The connection was collateral damage.
Madeleine McCann: 10 Years On
Panorama
Madeleine McCann is the world's most famous missing person. Her disappearance ten years ago has been investigated by police forces in two different countries, but they came up with contradictory conclusions. So what really happened to Madeleine in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz?
Reporter Richard Bilton, who has covered the story for the BBC since the first days, examines the evidence and tracks down the men British police have questioned about the case.
I don't think Panorama will be interviewing any non-English-speaking witnesses. As to whether they door-stepped anyone, we'll have to wait & see. I think there will be little of any real relevance, given Rowley's comments earlier this week.
Didn't Rowley say the latest arguidos are innocent. If so what the hell is the BBC doing chasing them? They weren't very adept at rooting out their own paedophile presenters.I doubt innocent was the word used. Have the McCanns been declared innocent in your view?
Nothing there about another couple visiting a couple of nights before,how about a link to the files concerning a witness statement.
I did a thread about who entered the apartment on the forum. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7824.0
In the last few pages we looked into this other couple.
Nothing there about another couple visiting a couple of nights before,how about a link to the files concerning a witness statement.Is that right? The posts could have been moderated off the thread, if that was the case I'll see if I can find the link. It was an article in the papers, obviously this information isn't in the file, but I believe the file was cultured to produce a certain result.
Is that right? The posts could have been moderated off the thread, if that was the case I'll see if I can find the link. It was an article in the papers, obviously this information isn't in the file, but I believe the file was cultured to produce a certain result.Wouldn't it be easier to say there is no cite,or perhaps I'll make it easier in future by asking where in the files can this be found.
Nothing there about another couple visiting a couple of nights before,how about a link to the files concerning a witness statement.http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7824.msg369623#msg369623
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7824.msg369623#msg369623Thanks,but its tittle tattle much like the Mail telling us today that cuddle cat was taken and twin boys left in 5a.
Thanks,but its tittle tattle much like the Mail telling us today that cuddle cat was taken and twin boys left in 5a."... Cuddle cat was taken and twin boys left in 5a."
"... uddle cat was taken and twin boys left in 5a."Read and weep.
Are those genuine claims in articles or just some hypothetical example?
Madeleine's younger twin brothers were still in the apartment and her favourite Cuddle Cat teddy, which she took everywhere, was gone.
The Sun appears to accept this claim as sacrosanct but the evidence tells a different story as Madeleine was heard to cry for over an hour on a previous night by the homeowner who resided permanently above the holiday apartment.
Read and weep.What is wrong with that? I hope Kate is finally answering one of those infamous questions - what did she see?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4459530/Prime-suspect-Madeleine-McCann-case-WOMAN.html
What is wrong with that? I hope Kate is finally answering one of those infamous questions - what did she see?
Of course the twins were left in the apartment. What is so strange about that?
Twin brothers - OH they must have been talking to Amaral, he was the first I recall saying they were twin brothers.
What is wrong with that? I hope Kate is finally answering one of those infamous questions - what did she see?Maybe the standard of reporting in acceptable where you reside.
Of course the twins were left in the apartment. What is so strange about that?
Twin brothers - OH they must have been talking to Amaral, he was the first, that I recall, saying they were twin brothers.
What is wrong with that? I hope Kate is finally answering one of those infamous questions - what did she see?
Of course the twins were left in the apartment. What is so strange about that?
Twin brothers - OH they must have been talking to Amaral, he was the first, that I recall, saying they were twin brothers.
10 years on you would expect that they could get basic facts correct.Not forgetting the cat which was left behind not taken.
Even Amaral in his book does not name Mrs Fenn as the person who heard a child crying - and that's because she didn't name any child in her statement.Wasn't the Fenn's apartment above the Payne's apartment? It could have been the Payne's child crying, for there was no proof (independent verification) that the child monitoring device was actually working that night.
When she said she didn't want to upset the parents, that does not necessarily mean she was sure it was Madeleine - as it could just as easily mean she didn't want to upset the parents in case it wasn't Madeleine whom she heard.
Very similar to Jane Tanner - who although she told the police what she had seen, didn't want to tell Kate at that stage - in case it wasn't Madeleine who she'd seen being being carried away.
IOW neither of them wanted to add to the fear and anxiety already being experienced by Kate and Gerry at that time - in case they were wrong.
AIMHO
Maybe the standard of reporting in acceptable where you reside.I take that to be some sort of insult toward New Zealanders.
Not forgetting the cat which was left behind not taken.Does it actually say it was taken? No it doesn't just says "gone".
Wasn't the Fenn's apartment above the Payne's apartment? It could have been the Payne's child crying, for there was no proof (independent verification) that the child monitoring device was actually working that night.
I take that to be some sort of insult toward New Zealanders.
Does it actually say it was taken? No it doesn't just says "gone".
Are you suggesting it woke & wandered? &%+((£No but that is a rather an imaginative solution.
Not at all,just getting the retaliation in first before the Lions are beat. *&*%£
I take that to be some sort of insult toward New Zealanders.
Not at all,just getting the retaliation in first before the Lions are beat. *&*%£The Lions are always treated as a formidable team.
Wasn't the Fenn's apartment above the Payne's apartment? It could have been the Payne's child crying, for there was no proof (independent verification) that the child monitoring device was actually working that night.Why are you quoting two different posters when we are talking of two different things.
I take that to be some sort of insult toward New Zealanders.
Does it actually say it was taken? No it doesn't just says "gone".
Why are you quoting two different posters when we are talking of two different things.It is the way the forum works. Go back to my original post it will be clear.
Wasn't the Fenn's apartment above the Payne's apartment? It could have been the Payne's child crying, for there was no proof (independent verification) that the child monitoring device was actually working that night.
You are wrong Rob. Have you not seen the photo of Mrs Fenn looking over her balcony straight onto 5a below?Thanks for the correction. I wasn't sure but you are obviously correct, so the Payne apartment must have been alongside Pamella Fenn's apartment.
Mrs Fenn lived permanently directly above the McCanns holiday apartment so could identify with unusual sounds and activity. She heard the McCanns patio door open and the crying stopped instantly. Was that another coincidence?
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_QKwFY7B0HuFqgrcQ_gwlyRrBvbNogsLxr6jUwMkdFzX5wvQx)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Dt3aEQy4rKc/TOwK4naL52I/AAAAAAAABpg/5HWpQY0PyZ8/s1600/Pic%2B1.JPG)
You are wrong Rob. Have you not seen the photo of Mrs Fenn looking over her balcony straight onto 5a below?
Mrs Fenn lived permanently directly above the McCanns holiday apartment so could identify with unusual sounds and activity. She heard the McCanns patio door open and the crying stopped instantly. Was that another coincidence?
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_QKwFY7B0HuFqgrcQ_gwlyRrBvbNogsLxr6jUwMkdFzX5wvQx)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Dt3aEQy4rKc/TOwK4naL52I/AAAAAAAABpg/5HWpQY0PyZ8/s1600/Pic%2B1.JPG)
You are wrong Rob. Have you not seen the photo of Mrs Fenn looking over her balcony straight onto 5a below?You would think that Kate or Gerry would have been aware that the kids were awake if this was the case. Could this be another incident of someone else coming in to comfort the kids without the McCanns being aware of it?
Mrs Fenn lived permanently directly above the McCanns holiday apartment so could identify with unusual sounds and activity. She heard the McCanns patio door open and the crying stopped instantly. Was that another coincidence?
and how good is her judgeemnt regarding timeWas,she is no longer with us.
Even Amaral in his book does not name Mrs Fenn as the person who heard a child crying - and that's because she didn't name any child in her statement.
When she said she didn't want to upset the parents, that does not necessarily mean she was sure it was Madeleine - as it could just as easily mean she didn't want to upset the parents in case it wasn't Madeleine whom she heard.
Very similar to Jane Tanner - who although she told the police what she had seen, didn't want to tell Kate at that stage - in case it wasn't Madeleine who she'd seen being being carried away.
IOW neither of them wanted to add to the fear and anxiety already being experienced by Kate and Gerry at that time - in case they were wrong.
AIMHO
Does anyone of you remember the woman with a strange behaviour close to the crime, who someone said had probably a mental illness?
If so a reference, please.
Do you mean the cleaner (?) who lived about 30km away in whose house were children's toys & a drawing but no child?
That would suggest that she hadn't got madeleine
it would suggest a child had been there
But not when, or even who.
But not when, or even who.
What I found ironic was SY questioning 3 suspected burglars based on mobile investigation work when they know two had deleted their mobile records within 12 hours of Madeleine's disappearance.But did you see they way the driver diverted away from coming toward the camera?
Good to see Heri on the telly tonight. The best programme on the subject so far IMO.
But did you see they way the driver diverted away from coming toward the camera?
To be fair Robbity ... had I been him, I would have done exactly the same.I realised after posting my comment that It was in the Sky documentary not Panorama one. No one else hid themselves as much as he did.
I realised after posting my comment that It was in the Sky documentary not Panorama one. No one else hid themselves as much as he did.
What purpose do people think it served when Richard Bilton confessed to Murat that he had been asked to be a spy withing the press from someone within a team acting for the McCanns? I'm more interested in the confession aspect than why the request was originally made.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/bbc-reporter-reveals-asked-act-10351623
What I find more interesting is that Bilton never named this person who asked him to spy on the Press pack.
But did you see they way the driver diverted away from coming toward the camera?
The whole thing changed his life. He worked for the Ocean Club for 25 years, working his way up to head of Accommodation. Now he works seasonally doing boat trips. When he was made redundant the 'Madeleine effect' was mentioned in the letter. No wonder he doesn't want to talk about it.That man didn't look old enough. Are we talking of the same person?
"Madeleine effect"? Or 2008 world crisis?
I understood that when all those people were made redundant their letters mentioned the Madeleine case. I find it believable because Mark Warner made an insurance claim citing the same reason. It's not usual to make a claim based on a 'world crisis'.
"It is a matter of public record that Mark Warner's bookings to Portugal were affected by events nearly two years ago......the number of parents choosing to go to its resort in Portugal declined immediately after Madeleine's disappearance
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort
Do you have a cite for any of thisBut if they are not renewed.
Surely most workers would be on temporary seasonal contracts
Do you have a cite for any of this
Surely most workers would be on temporary seasonal contracts
Does anyone of you remember the woman with a strange behaviour close to the crime, who someone said had probably a mental illness?
If so a reference, please.
I understood that when all those people were made redundant their letters mentioned the Madeleine case. I find it believable because Mark Warner made an insurance claim citing the same reason. It's not usual to make a claim based on a 'world crisis'.Would this be the main reason the GNR and the PJ not wanting the Media involved. "No Media, No Media".
"It is a matter of public record that Mark Warner's bookings to Portugal were affected by events nearly two years ago......the number of parents choosing to go to its resort in Portugal declined immediately after Madeleine's disappearance
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort
Would this be the main reason the GNR and the PJ not wanting the Media involved. "No Media, No Media".
Who said that? The GNR, the PJ, neither or both? Did someone tell the Portuguese media?
During the early morning in question I received some telephone calls from people whom, with the exception of one, expressed themselves in Portuguese to ask whether an English girl had really disappeared in Lagos.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MANUEL_QUEIROZ.htm
Goncalo Amaral said it. On Camera.
"Madeleine effect"? Or 2008 world crisis?Just for the record, 3 May 2017 was a very pleasant day weather-wise, hitting a high of 23C at high sun, and 16C at 10pm.
Just for the record, 3 May 2017 was a very pleasant day weather-wise, hitting a high of 23C at high sun, and 16C at 10pm.
There are reports of full accommodation coming out from the mayor. That is cobblers. I know of one contact who does accommodation at the high end - that's large apartments appointed to 5 star luxury standards - and he was indeed fully booked for the season as far back as Dec 2016. Below this top end level, things are different.
The promenade is bustling, but not yet heaving. There are large numbers of Portuguese down from Lisbon to have a seaside holiday. Last night, I spoke to a gentleman from Sweden, and also a couple from Germany who were in Luz on 3 May 2007.
A quick check on the restaurants showed those south of the church are empty, with the exception of the Portuguese one which was 1/3rd full. The Chinese restaurant on 25 Abril had only a small handful of customers.
Since I have been looking at the Ocean Club on 1, 2 and 3 May, I can conclude that it is dead. The most I have seen is perhaps 5 people in the Tapas area with 1 brave enough to go swimming.
Luz in general is slowly getting back to its feet and there should be enough in the season to keep businesses alive. The Ocean Club is dead in the water. Why they don't re-brand it is beyond me.
So the tsunami was the financial meltdown. But the Ocean Club has died from the Madeleine effect.
I know there was no baby listening in PDL but MW promoted the service in other resortsIf you can show they were aware of break ins, it is forum policy to provide a cite for such.
It also seems they were aware of break ins in the Club
I don't blame the McCanns for what has happened but it seems the people of Luz do
Just for the record, 3 May 2017 was a very pleasant day weather-wise, hitting a high of 23C at high sun, and 16C at 10pm.
There are reports of full accommodation coming out from the mayor. That is cobblers. I know of one contact who does accommodation at the high end - that's large apartments appointed to 5 star luxury standards - and he was indeed fully booked for the season as far back as Dec 2016. Below this top end level, things are different.
The promenade is bustling, but not yet heaving. There are large numbers of Portuguese down from Lisbon to have a seaside holiday. Last night, I spoke to a gentleman from Sweden, and also a couple from Germany who were in Luz on 3 May 2007.
A quick check on the restaurants showed those south of the church are empty, with the exception of the Portuguese one which was 1/3rd full. The Chinese restaurant on 25 Abril had only a small handful of customers.
Since I have been looking at the Ocean Club on 1, 2 and 3 May, I can conclude that it is dead. The most I have seen is perhaps 5 people in the Tapas area with 1 brave enough to go swimming.
Luz in general is slowly getting back to its feet and there should be enough in the season to keep businesses alive. The Ocean Club is dead in the water. Why they don't re-brand it is beyond me.
So the tsunami was the financial meltdown. But the Ocean Club has died from the Madeleine effect.
I think you are describing the Ocean Club of 2017 (I believe it isn't called that anymore since its change in ownership) very much as the McCanns and their friends found it in 2007.
The season was starting then and the season is starting now the difference being that in 2007 the weather at the time was not as you describe.
All else being equal ... I don't think the McCanns are responsible for any localised downturn.
If you can show they were aware of break ins, it is forum policy to provide a cite for such.
I note your empathy appears to stop with the McCanns.
8((()*/
And you seem to have very little sympathy for the McCanns
If the McCanns are innocent as I think they are then tha abductor must be very pleased with amarals poor detective work
If there have been assaults on other children that haven't been investigated then that's not much of a deterrent for criminals
As regards the B.B.C. Documentary.
Posters do not have to read the link. 8)-)))
https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/british-media-documentaries-few-points.html
Who knows Joanna and Maddie could have been abducted by the same person so where would the blame lie then
Yeah ... she does seem a little perturbed.
One of our members Valeria noted "I know that the shutter could be opened from outside. These shutters are common in Greece." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
The Greeks gave a lot of knowledge to the world ... it seems posting Portuguese sceptics and their worldwide counterparts have missed out on that particular little gem.
THEY DID NOT KNOW THE SHUTTERS CAN BE RAISED FROM OUTSIDE funny that the Greeks are in the loop and do.
That bird has flown because thanks to Heri we know it can be done because we have seen him doing it ... yet another thread in the general unravelling of of a carefully constructed truth which is actually a lie.
Yeah ... she does seem a little perturbed.
One of our members Valeria noted "I know that the shutter could be opened from outside. These shutters are common in Greece." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
The Greeks gave a lot of knowledge to the world ... it seems posting Portuguese sceptics and their worldwide counterparts have missed out on that particular little gem.
THEY DID NOT KNOW THE SHUTTERS CAN BE RAISED FROM OUTSIDE funny that the Greeks are in the loop and do.
That bird has flown because thanks to Heri we know it can be done because we have seen him doing it ... yet another thread in the general unravelling of of a carefully constructed truth which is actually a lie.
Who is "they" ?
As roller shutters were invented about 120 + years ago I rather suspect there are plenty of folk about who understand how a roller shutter in all its variations operates and what can and what cannot be done with it. Some may even realise that the interesting bits of Heri's contrived video clip lie on his cutting room floor.
8)--)) I joined the "McCann Circus" at the end of 2013 and sceptics were still vehemently defending their position that the the shutter could not be raised from outside.
But I see you have picked up on the point I was making ... EVERYONE ... familiar with them knows they do; I think the problem is why the denial of that fact and the vigour used to do so.
I think like most of the myths ... all unravel under scrutiny.
8)--)) I joined the "McCann Circus" at the end of 2013 and sceptics were still vehemently defending their position that the the shutter could not be raised from outside.I hope you include abduction in that last sentence because as time goes on no matter what ,with all that OG eliminate abduction becomes even more hard to explain.
But I see you have picked up on the point I was making ... EVERYONE ... familiar with them knows they do; I think the problem is why the denial of that fact and the vigour used to do so.
I think like most of the myths ... all unravel under scrutiny.
Reporting inaccuracies in the program, and there are several, is not being perturbed.
As for Heriberto, seeing a part of the video means nothing at all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in the video, the shutters were already part raised.
Likewise, how could he open the window if it was locked from the inside ?
it certainly does not prove one iota the window or shutters were opened from the outside.
Miraculously, there is no mark or trail to show such an event happened. 8)-)))
I am still waiting for him to show us how the "abductor" climbed through the narrow window after having opened it and then climbed out again with a child in his arms.
8)--)) I joined the "McCann Circus" at the end of 2013 and sceptics were still vehemently defending their position that the the shutter could not be raised from outside.
But I see you have picked up on the point I was making ... EVERYONE ... familiar with them knows they do; I think the problem is why the denial of that fact and the vigour used to do so.
I think like most of the myths ... all unravel under scrutiny.
Can you tell me Brietta what physical evidence exists, including naturally forensic evidence, that the shutters or window was opened from out side ?
Did I say the shutter was raised from outside?
In the programme, Heri pointed out the apartments in sight of 5A which had been burgled with entry gained via a window. Including Mrs Fenn's residence in which a window was used to enter and exit and was directly above 5a.
It is worth noting that the window to the Fenn apartment situated in the stairwell has been fitted with a metal grille as has the bedroom window of apartment 5a where Madeleine slept.
If the apartment was being watched, as we are lead to believe, surely the burglar would know the patio doors were open and use them ?There were so many high level businessmen at PDL in block 4 that week it can't be assumed they were spying on the McCann's apartment.
Can you tell me Brietta what physical evidence exists, including naturally forensic evidence, that the shutters or window was opened from out side ?Can you define what opened from the outside actually means? To me it depends where the person's feet are. He is on the outside if his feet are on the outside even if he is reaching in.
If the apartment was being watched, as we are lead to believe, surely the burglar would know the patio doors were open and use them ?
Did I say the shutter was raised from outside?
In the programme, Heri pointed out the apartments in sight of 5A which had been burgled with entry gained via a window. Including Mrs Fenn's residence in which a window was used to enter and exit and was directly above 5a.
It is worth noting that the window to the Fenn apartment situated in the stairwell has been fitted with a metal grille as has the bedroom window of apartment 5a where Madeleine slept.
More straw clutching.Kates statement is evidence but not proof and there is no evidence to show kate is lying
The implications was obvious.
The shutters and window were opened from outside and not a jot of evidence to support that ever happened.
More straw clutching.Stephen I'll repeat my question to you. "Can you define what opened from the outside actually means? To me it depends where the person's feet are. He is on the outside if his feet are on the outside even if he is reaching in.
The implications was obvious.
The shutters and window were opened from outside and not a jot of evidence to support that ever happened.
I think you are describing the Ocean Club of 2017 (I believe it isn't called that anymore since its change in ownership) very much as the McCanns and their friends found it in 2007.Please provide a cite as to what it is called. I have been on-site with 2 media teams, over the 10th anniversary. I'd like to know so I get it correct in future.
The season was starting then and the season is starting now the difference being that in 2007 the weather at the time was not as you describe.
All else being equal ... I don't think the McCanns are responsible for any localised downturn.
PdL is the safest place on The Planet, apart from the poisonous atmosphere.We have all lived for 5 years in this atmosphere.. 6 adults. 2 children. We all survived.
Spot on deduction there.
On the other hand who is to say he or she didn't have a key for the front door having knowledge of the unlikelihood of bumping into anyone else using it since the checkers were using the patio door.
The reality is ... only the abductor (Mr Amaral is entitled to his fantasy just as I am to mine but mine is far more likely than his imo) so, only an abductor would know how access was gained.
Spot on deduction there.If "only an abductor would know how access was gained" and we don't know who the abductor is, then we really know nothing at all.
On the other hand who is to say he or she didn't have a key for the front door having knowledge of the unlikelihood of bumping into anyone else using it since the checkers were using the patio door.
The reality is ... only the abductor (Mr Amaral is entitled to his fantasy just as I am to mine but mine is far more likely than his imo) so, only an abductor would know how access was gained.
Spot on deduction there.
On the other hand who is to say he or she didn't have a key for the front door having knowledge of the unlikelihood of bumping into anyone else using it since the checkers were using the patio door.
The reality is ... only the abductor (Mr Amaral is entitled to his fantasy just as I am to mine but mine is far more likely than his imo) so, only an abductor would know how access was gained.
Please provide a cite as to what it is called. I have been on-site with 2 media teams, over the 10th anniversary. I'd like to know so I get it correct in future.
However it is possible to figure logic in to the equation.
I think most people have done that already. One doesn't require pause for reflection as to why Panorama ignored the coffin invasion/cremation for a central theme to their programme.
As I have posted before the police force investigating the Moira Anderson disappearance thought that her body might also have been concealed in a similar fashion so, although I don't subscribe to this particular theory, it is not as far fetched as some would have us believe.
On a side note while you yourself were a ardent opposer, and quite rightly so, of Sonia Poulton doorstepping Kate McCann several years ago what are your feelings on Bilton haranguing an obviously mentally disabled man or rudely questioning a gentleman, who was never even an arguido, at his place of work?
I was mistaken that there had been a name change ... it is still the Ocean Club ... and basically that is all you needed to say.Is it possible you could be a bit more positive?
Interestingly though while checking that out I came across quite a few reviews which while praising much about the benefits of Luz also gave an indication of precisely why the economic downturn and lack of investment has much more to do with any perceived decline than Madeleine's case does.
Lots of renovation needed
We used to own a house as part of the club but our kids grew up so we sold up.
We still visit every 12 months or so as we love Luz and have lots of friends there that we catch up with. We always stay on the Ocean Club site so that we can use the facilities and also holiday with our owner friends.
The Club has gone on a roller coaster ride, not only because of the 'Madeleine' incident which has cast a cloud over the resort for no fault of its own, but the recession and change of ownership have also taken their toll.
The club needs a lot of money spending on it. There were 4 pools, we understand that the 'adult' pool is closed for good - too costly to repair, the indoor Palm Bay pool is no longer part of the club and is also closed, the main 'pot' pool at the top of the resort is due to have major alterations and will be closed for summer.
That leaves the garden pool or waterside as it was called.
This is a lovely pool but will be nowhere big enough this summer.....both the pot pool and this used to be full of Sun worshippers and kids ....one pool will never manage.
The tennis courts are very tired and need re surfacing at least.
There were few staff around, we used to see gardeners all the time but none at all in our 10 day stay. In fact we only saw 3 staff in all our visits to reception and the pool.
The roadways and paths in resort also need sorting, we think UK roads are poor - these are far worse.
A lot of tidying is needed, gardening and weeding, painting and general cleaning.
Luz itself is the saddest we have seen it in 15 years , albeit this was Easter it is hard to see how much can be sorted before the main tourist season. At least there is less building work going on and very few cranes.
It won't stop us going 'out of season' again but never in the summer.
We were told that the club is going to be full/very busy for this summer - it will be a bit tight around the pool if there is only one in operation. Fingers crossed it is tidied up as well as it does look a bit sad.
Ps the beach is still great !
Room Tip: Try and get a property in Ocean Club Gardens as they are the newest
Stayed: April 2017, travelled with family
Garden Pool
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html
"The Gym was closed, and had been for some time judging by the old dusty equipment. The spa and poolside activities did not exist and one poolside bar and restaurant were closed – in peak season!! Maybe we were unlucky, but our apartment was dirty and wasn’t serviced properly during our stay.
SusanY 51 August 2015
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html
With reference to discussion about speedy driving outside Luz ... it seems the cops are not the only ones to inspire terror.
" ... or a mad airport taxi driver (on his mobile continually looking for a return fare whilst doing 100+ km per hour - hairy or what?) but only took 45 minutes (of terror)."
Debbie F 2014
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g776012-d229314-Reviews-Luz_Ocean_Club-Luz_Faro_District_Algarve.html
You almost wonder why it is pooh poohed so quickly.
As I have posted before the police force investigating the Moira Anderson disappearance thought that her body might also have been concealed in a similar fashion so, although I don't subscribe to this particular theory, it is not as far fetched as some would have us believe.
On a side note while you yourself were a ardent opposer, and quite rightly so, of Sonia Poulton doorstepping Kate McCann several years ago what are your feelings on Bilton haranguing an obviously mentally disabled man or rudely questioning a gentleman, who was never even an arguido, at his place of work?
"I have been in contact with Moira's sisters and made them aware of the outcome of the search and although they are naturally disappointed, they remain positive that this continues to be a live investigation."
As I have posted before the police force investigating the Moira Anderson disappearance thought that her body might also have been concealed in a similar fashion so, although I don't subscribe to this particular theory, it is not as far fetched as some would have us believe.If it's not a far fetched theory then perhaps you can cite some instances when this method of murder victim body disposal has actually been used?
On a side note while you yourself were a ardent opposer, and quite rightly so, of Sonia Poulton doorstepping Kate McCann several years ago what are your feelings on Bilton haranguing an obviously mentally disabled man or rudely questioning a gentleman, who was never even an arguido, at his place of work?
You almost wonder why it is pooh poohed so quickly.Hmmm....could it be that us supporters have been let into the secret and are trying very very hard to deflect from what was actually the real method of body disposal??? Oh no, rumbled!!
You almost wonder why it is pooh poohed so quickly.
If it's not a far fetched theory then perhaps you can cite some instances when this method of murder victim body disposal has actually been used?
The downturn in Luz has other causes than MaddieYou haven't visited so you haven't got a clue.
The resort seems run down and outdated
Limited or no wi fi
Many families are opting for all inclusive now
It's just being used to heap more blame on the mccanns
You haven't visited so you haven't got a clue.I don't have to visit its common sense combined with reading some reviews
The downturn in the Ocean Club fortunes had a Madeleine component.
That you appear to not like this truth is not my problem.
I don't have to visit its common sense combined with reading some reviews
Poor wifi is a massive turn off these days
Do you know the details seeing as you have been there and I haven't
I do
And the growth in all inclusive
The vast majority of people are probably unaware as to where in Portugal Maddie was abducted from
Especially as, potentially, it offers so much.
I notice we have three mods out and about so this can be whooshed if someone thinks it is too close to the knuckle and/or the board is tickle-stomached.
1 The cremation with someone else offers some solace on religious grounds.
2. It offers less or more an out from under wrt to human rights to whit depriving someone of a decent burial.
3. And in the UK at least the potential, with a bit of skilful tap dancing from a brief, of an out from under a life sentence for "prevention of the lawful and decent burial of a dead body".
Please note what I am not saying nor have said nor have implied.
The villas in PDL are privately owned an otApartment 5A was privately owned on 3 May 2007. It still is. At an alleged 55% below market value, due to the Madeleine effect.
Apartment 5A was privately owned on 3 May 2007. It still is. At an alleged 55% below market value, due to the Madeleine effect.That's right and that means that if their owners want to neglect them there is little the Ocean Club management can do
The Ocean Club does not own any of the apartments. They are all privately owned.
The downturn in Luz has other causes than MaddieWhat downturn in Luz?
The resort seems run down and outdated
Limited or no wi fi
Many families are opting for all inclusive now
It's just being used to heap more blame on the mccanns
If it's not a far fetched theory then perhaps you can cite some instances when this method of murder victim body disposal has actually been used?
The North Lanarkshire police found it credible I think that's all we need to know.
That's right and that means that if their owners want to neglect them there is little the Ocean Club management can doOh dear. The property was on the market for €250,000. This, allegedly, was already below the price of similar properties by about €50,000. It sold for €113,000.
I would say your 55% is a gross exaggeration combined with the fact it would be impossible to be so precise
Oh dear. The property was on the market for €250,000. This, allegedly, was already below the price of similar properties by about €50,000. It sold for €113,000.Before you do the maths you would need to get your figures right
Do the arithmetic yourself.
Before you ask for a cite, it is all on the forum already.
Madeleine effect = true. Simples.
It has been done before by the Mafia.Ah, of course the old Double Decker coffin routine. Silly me. Now if we can forge a link between the McCanns and the PdL Mafia then we might be on to something...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-10-08/mafia-double-decker-coffins-used-for-body-disposal/1489720
Print Email Facebook Twitter More
Mafia double-decker coffins used for body disposal
Posted 8 Oct 2003, 2:39am
MAP: United States
A court in New York has been told a crime family regularly used double-decker coffins to permanently dispose of its murder victims.
Mafia turncoat Anthony Rotondo has told jurors the DeCavalcante family used the coffins to secretly bury the victims of its mob hits, along with the bodies of those who died more natural deaths.
Rotondo says the double-decker coffins were used as early as the 1920s, with the family placing the body of the murdered victim below the regular customer.
He says it was the brainchild of Carlo Corsentino, an undertaker member of the DeCavalcante family.
Rotondo also says the system was regularly at risk of being exposed when six grown men acting as pall-bearers would carry someone's 36-kilogram grandmother and looked like they were all having hernias.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are also several examples where such a scenario has been used in popular fiction.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrammingTheCoffin
For the record, I don't believe for one minute that body disposal of this nature occurred in Luz. However, had Amaral been convinced of this hypothesis, he should have taken steps to locate the cremains & subject then to DNA testing on any remaining bone or teeth fragments.
https://privatelabresults.com/cremated-remains-dna-testing/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540683/DNA-test-cremated-remains-woman-wrong-body-mothers-casket.html
What downturn in Luz?There are two multi-million villas being worked on in our 'estate'.
" Property is booming again: every street seems to have an estate agent and there are more 1 million euro apartments being built."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/03/just-had-enough-ten-years-praia-da-luz-remembers-night-madeleine/amp/
It's amazing this dead resort hasn't closed down completely isn't it? Or do they keep it going just for fun (and for the ghouls)?What dead resort?
@ShiningI haven't heard of it, and we were not aware of it.
How much impact has this law had on Luz & surrounding area? (Off topic, I know, but perhaps relevant to general trade in Luz)
https://degtev.com/waterfront-property-portugal-land-grab-threat/
I don't have to visit its common sense combined with reading some reviews
Poor wifi is a massive turn off these days
Do you know the details seeing as you have been there and I haven't
I do
And the growth in all inclusive
The vast majority of people are probably unaware as to where in Portugal Maddie was abducted from
Surely the biggest "downer" on any local economy is an unsolved crime of a child that, according to a shelved police enquiry, is (most likely!) to have been murdered.Coupled with a foreign police force trying to stitch up some locals.
That is what the first (shelved) enquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine concluded is most likely to have happened to Madeleine.
Surely the biggest "downer" on any local economy is an unsolved crime of a child that, according to a shelved police enquiry, is (most likely!) to have been murdered.
That is what the first (shelved) enquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine concluded is most likely to have happened to Madeleine.
Coupled with a foreign police force trying to stitch up some locals.makes a change from the local police trying to stitch up some foreigners I guess... 8(0(*
makes a change from the local police trying to stitch up some foreigners I guess... 8(0(*Never the twain.
Yeah and smart. He wouldn't criticise the 2007 investigation.
"If it depended on my heart, the case would already be solved. But it doesn’t depend on my heart. It depends, very much, on our minds.” Pedro do Carmo
Wasn't the Fenn's apartment above the Payne's apartment? It could have been the Payne's child crying, for there was no proof (independent verification) that the child monitoring device was actually working that night.How did I get that so wrong?
....
How did I get that so wrong?