UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on April 28, 2017, 08:15:10 PM
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Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc. Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC. Both visits took place pre-trial.
Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with the following in an attempt to reconstruct events/soc:
Dr Vanezis - pathologist - trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - casings and distance of shots
Why didn't the jury visit WHF?
The following are a few examples that I can recall where juries have been afforded a visit to soc:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/02/april-jones-jury-mark-bridger
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1446414/Murder-trial-jurors-walk-through-Soham-in-the-final-footsteps-of-Holly-and-Jessica.html
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jan/21/ukcrime.allegrastratton
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/silent-jury-visits-cromwell-street-1578429.html
Can anyone think of/find any cases where the jury was not taken to visit such a residential property/soc?
Any ideas why the jury at JB's trial was not afforded a visit to WHF?
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It seems to be a feature of modern trials that the jury is taken to visit the property where the crime took place. Possibly, this just wasn't the "done thing" back in 1986, but not sure. The first time I remember it happening was at Rose West's trial.
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I recall when the notorious Kenneth Noye went on trial for murdering an undercover policeman on his land, he was under surveillance at the time for his part in the brinksmat gold bullion robbery in 1983 so it was pre-bamber.
The jury then was taken by coach to the murder location. This was at the request of the defence, who wanted to demonstrate to the jury what a dark and remote spot it was at night, and to demonstrate that Noye was afraid for his life and therefore stabbed the police officer multiple times in self defence. He was acquitted.
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Thinking about other cases where crimes have been committed within a residential property the jury is usually taken to visit soc. Afaik the only individuals to visit soc were Dr Vanezis and the prosecutor, Anthony Arlidge QC. Both visits took place pre-trial.
Why didn't JB's defence arrange a pre-trial meeting at WHF with the following in an attempt to reconstruct events/soc:
Dr Vanezis - pathologist - trajectories and wound tracks
John Hayward - biologist - blood pattern analysis - interpretation of bloodstaining
Malcolm Fletcher - ballistics - casings and distance of shots
Why didn't the jury visit WHF?
The following are a few examples that I can recall where juries have been afforded a visit to soc:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/02/april-jones-jury-mark-bridger
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1446414/Murder-trial-jurors-walk-through-Soham-in-the-final-footsteps-of-Holly-and-Jessica.html
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jan/21/ukcrime.allegrastratton
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/silent-jury-visits-cromwell-street-1578429.html
Can anyone think of/find any cases where the jury was not taken to visit such a residential property/soc?
Any ideas why the jury at JB's trial was not afforded a visit to WHF?
Yes the Robin Bain quad murder suicide. The police arrested David then burned his house down.
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Yes the Robin Bain quad murder suicide. The police arrested David then burned his house down.
I think there might ave been some tie in between, they didn't turn up with handcuffs, matches and a can of unleaded?
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It seems to be a feature of modern trials that the jury is taken to visit the property where the crime took place. Possibly, this just wasn't the "done thing" back in 1986, but not sure. The first time I remember it happening was at Rose West's trial.
Yes that's what I was thinking until I read Steve's post below. I was looking at the case of Dennis Nilsen, which was pre WHF, to see if the jury visited his flat(s) but can't find any evidence to support a jury visit.
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I recall when the notorious Kenneth Noye went on trial for murdering an undercover policeman on his land, he was under surveillance at the time for his part in the brinksmat gold bullion robbery in 1983 so it was pre-bamber.
The jury then was taken by coach to the murder location. This was at the request of the defence, who wanted to demonstrate to the jury what a dark and remote spot it was at night, and to demonstrate that Noye was afraid for his life and therefore stabbed the police officer multiple times in self defence. He was acquitted.
Well remembered. Now you've jogged my memory I can recall the case. Seems like yesterday.
I wouldn't mind betting KN was more switched on than his brief and provided a lot of input on strategy etc ?>)(
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What would have been the benefit of a jury traipsing all over White House Farm Holly?
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What would have been the benefit of a jury traipsing all over White House Farm Holly?
To assist jurors understanding of all the physical evidence from scene of crime. The soc was extremely complex and unusual for Little Britian. Other peacetime mass shootings eg Michael Ryan, Hungerford, all involve the perps committing suicide. The perps were observed by numerous witnesses and these cases were undisputed.
The only out of court visit afforded to the jury in the WHF case was a trip to a shooting range to hear the difference between the rifle discharged with and without the silencer.
Today a jury would be:
- taken on the bike ride it is claimed JB used
- observe someone entering and exiting the windows it is claimed JB used
- observe the following by way of appropriate markers
- bloodstaining
- casings (and exited bullets)
- exhibits such as bible etc
- location and position of victims when gsw's were sustained along with the location and position they were found and pathological evidence of injuries sustained
If the state wants to remove a citizen's liberty for 25 years/life for a heinous crime it needs to assist the jury in reaching the correct verdict.
Jill Dando sustained a single gunshot wound on her doorstep and yet the jury was afforded a visit to the soc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1323186.stm
The whole case is based on nothing other than gross incompetence and negligence by JB's defence lawyers from 1985 - to date and serious perversions and flaws in the judicial process.
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Could it have that by the time the trial came around Peter and Ann had turned White House farm into a family home. I have no doubt they wouldn't have wanted a bunch of strangers traipsing all over their home in any circumstances never mind the upset to their own children.
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Sorry to be a party-pooper, John, but from what I understand WHF wasn't occupied for several years after the murders. &%+((£
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Sorry to be a party-pooper, John, but from what I understand WHF wasn't occupied for several years after the murders. &%+((£
Just said that and deleted it because I thought it wasn't right. We can't both be wrong though, can we? &%&£(+
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Just said that and deleted it because I thought it wasn't right. We can't both be wrong though, can we? &%&£(+
Not unless we both read it from the same source and that was wrong as well!
Where's Holly in times of need... flown off to the Land of Gollum?
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Could it have that by the time the trial came around Peter and Ann had turned White House farm into a family home. I have no doubt they wouldn't have wanted a bunch of strangers traipsing all over their home in any circumstances never mind the upset to their own children.
I'm not sure when the Eatons moved into WHF. Would it have been before trial? If JB hadn't been convicted then he would be entitled to all the contents. If I remember correctly the Henry Smith charity said JB could take over the tenancy.
In any event surely in the interests of justice WHF should have been sealed off as a soc until post trial with the jury shown around aided by the the trial judge, JB's defence, the prosecution and expert witnesses.
The Eatons were not dependent in any shape or form on WHF as a place to live or viable farm. Any paperwork associated with the running of the farm could be taken elsewhere and dealt with accordingly.
According to DB, AE's children suffered nightmares living at WHF.
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Not unless we both read it from the same source and that was wrong as well!
Where's Holly in times of need... flown off to the Land of Gollum?
I'm here ?{)(** Not going anywhere at the moment. I've had a poorly arm for some weeks now probably rotar cuff. I think I overdid it in the gym last year with the lateral raises 8)><( Finally went to the GP last week and have some anti-inflammatory tablets which seem to be working. Have an appt tomorrow with a sports therapist. I know you wanted to know all of this!
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I'm not sure when the Eatons moved into WHF. Would it have been before trial? If JB hadn't been convicted then he would be entitled to all the contents. If I remember correctly the Henry Smith charity said JB could take over the tenancy.
In any event surely in the interests of justice WHF should have been sealed off as a soc until post trial with the jury shown around aided by the the trial judge, JB's defence, the prosecution and expert witnesses.
The Eatons were not dependent in any shape or form on WHF as a place to live or viable farm. Any paperwork associated with the running of the farm could be taken elsewhere and dealt with accordingly.
According to DB, AE's children suffered nightmares living at WHF.
I doubt it because Probate wouldn't have been sorted out before the trial as they didn't know if the chief beneficiary was innocent or guilty?
I wouldn't bother with NZ if this monstrosity is there to greet you when you land...
https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/ (https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/)
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I doubt it because Probate wouldn't have been sorted out before the trial as they didn't know if the chief beneficiary was innocent or guilty?
I wouldn't bother with NZ if this monstrosity is there to greet you when you land...
https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/ (https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/)
Samson said NZ is full of cultural delights 8(8-))
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I doubt it because Probate wouldn't have been sorted out before the trial as they didn't know if the chief beneficiary was innocent or guilty?
I wouldn't bother with NZ if this monstrosity is there to greet you when you land...
https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/ (https://laughingsquid.com/giant-gollum-sculpture-installed-at-new-zealand-airport/)
It would be interesting to clarify what actually happened after the murders. August is traditionally the harvest month so there must have been a lot going on at White House Farm. The farm still required to be run on a commercial basis, farmworkers required to be given orders, wages and bills had to be paid, someone had to take charge. The farmhouse was the nerve centre for these activities so did it continue as such or was the office transferred elsewhere?
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It would be interesting to clarify what actually happened after the murders. August is traditionally the harvest month so there must have been a lot going on at White House Farm. The farm still required to be run on a commercial basis, farmworkers required to be given orders, wages and bills had to be paid, someone had to take charge. The farmhouse was the nerve centre for these activities so did it continue as such or was the office transferred elsewhere?
It appears in the early days PE offered to take over the day-to-day management of the farm and JB agreed. I guess long time employees/associates like BW, Len Foakes and Basil Cock were able to just get on with things.
As we know BW continued to work as farm secretary for N & J Bamber Ltd under the management of PE and then made an official complaint with EP about PE during 1987 on the basis of financial irregularity:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1045.msg29871#msg29871
I don't know whether BW continued working from WHF or relocated to the Eatons at Oak Farm.