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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on May 12, 2017, 06:11:30 PM

Title: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: misty on May 12, 2017, 06:11:30 PM
In the Sky1 Documentary aired on 2/5/07 a local resident, who had taken some photographs of a section of roadworks in the OC area, can be seen expressing his concern that Madeleine may have fallen into an open trench and been buried by disturbed soil slipping from the sides.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5klkn3_searching-for-madeleine_tv

I have attached screenshots of the photographs shown in the programme & it may be helpful if someone could identify where these particular works were situated.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: jassi on May 12, 2017, 08:03:35 PM
If Madeleine could have accidentally  fallen in & been covered by soil, it is also seems possible that this could have been done deliberately.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: misty on May 12, 2017, 08:20:36 PM
If Madeleine could have accidentally  fallen in & been covered by soil, it is also seems possible that this could have been done deliberately.

That is also possible but would have been very risky.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: John on May 12, 2017, 08:25:22 PM
If Madeleine could have accidentally  fallen in & been covered by soil, it is also seems possible that this could have been done deliberately.

That's a reasonable suggestion jassi. Possibly following a RTA too?
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2017, 08:29:22 PM
That is also possible but would have been very risky.

It is a scenario which in my opinion was easily and quickly ruled out while the trenches were open.  The Portuguese had search and rescue dogs available to them.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: jassi on May 12, 2017, 08:29:39 PM
That is also possible but would have been very risky.

For whom?
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: misty on May 12, 2017, 08:33:02 PM
For whom?

The person disposing. Daylight or under the cover of darkness? Prior or post search activity?
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2017, 11:59:37 PM
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-9-8-MAP.JPG)

12 SEP 2007

COPS were last night poised to launch a dramatic dig for Madeleine McCann outside the Portuguese church where her parents prayed for her safe return.

They fear the three-year-old’s body was stashed under ROADWORKS, then later moved in her family’s hire car

The theory was outlined in evidence handed to a judge yesterday naming mum Kate and dad Gerry, both doctors aged 39, as suspects in Maddie’s disappearance on holiday in the Algarve.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/SUN-12-09-07.htm

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/12-09-07-sun1-Cops%20to%20dig%20at%20church.JPG)

The British police have appealed again for media restraint as search teams begin work on at least three areas in and around the resort of Praia da Luz. These areas are understood to include wasteground behind a church, an area where roadworks were being carried out when the three-year-old British girl disappeared, and an area near the beach.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/22/madeleine-mccann-police-search-portugal
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2017, 12:33:56 AM
In the Sky1 Documentary aired on 2/5/07 a local resident, who had taken some photographs of a section of roadworks in the OC area, can be seen expressing his concern that Madeleine may have fallen into an open trench and been buried by disturbed soil slipping from the sides.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5klkn3_searching-for-madeleine_tv

I have attached screenshots of the photographs shown in the programme & it may be helpful if someone could identify where these particular works were situated.
Junction of Helena do Nascimento  Baptista and Direita.

It's in the PJ Files.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: misty on May 13, 2017, 01:36:57 AM
Junction of Helena do Nascimento  Baptista and Direita.

It's in the PJ Files.

I'm having trouble finding that small low section of whitewashed wall(first screenshot) at that particular junction.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2017, 01:38:00 AM
The person disposing. Daylight or under the cover of darkness? Prior or post search activity?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00554/news-graphics-exclu_554235a.jpg)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1435222/Madeleine-McCann-timeline-The-case-so-far.html
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: misty on May 13, 2017, 01:53:53 AM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00554/news-graphics-exclu_554235a.jpg)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1435222/Madeleine-McCann-timeline-The-case-so-far.html

Thanks, Brietta. I think I'll give up trying to locate the spot the local man was so concerned about.
(Hadn't seen that artist's impression of suspect on the right before though)
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2017, 04:49:42 AM
Here
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Innominate on May 13, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
Quote
That's a reasonable suggestion jassi. Possibly following a RTA too?

I don't think the RTA angle should be ruled out, it is a plausible explanation.

However it is not that far to fairly isolated spots, which are possibly better places to hide a body.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2017, 01:23:35 PM
I don't think the RTA angle should be ruled out, it is a plausible explanation.

However it is not that far to fairly isolated spots, which are possibly better places to hide a body.

Except that 'woke and wandered' was ruled out by the shelved enquiry.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Innominate on May 13, 2017, 02:42:55 PM
Quote
Except that 'woke and wandered' was ruled out by the shelved enquiry.

I think we might be drifting off-topic, but my response would be that I'm not wedded to the 'woke and wandered' theory, but as far as I know it was not ruled out. There was only a few lines of analysis with no reasons given as to why it was only a 'remote possibility'; I though the report was weak in this regard.

Jane Tanner seemed to believe it was a distinct possibility:

Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

Implying if the door was not dead-locked then 'escape' was possible.

Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: jassi on May 13, 2017, 02:47:17 PM
If these doors were dead-lockable, then it makes the McCanns look even more remiss in apparently not knowing whether their door was dead-locked or not.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2017, 02:54:58 PM
I think we might be drifting off-topic, but my response would be that I'm not wedded to the 'woke and wandered' theory, but as far as I know it was not ruled out. There was only a few lines of analysis with no reasons given as to why it was only a 'remote possibility'; I though the report was weak in this regard.

Jane Tanner seemed to believe it was a distinct possibility:

Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”

Implying if the door was not dead-locked then 'escape' was possible.

Joao Carlos refers to 'woke and wandered' a remote possibility, and Kate amplifies the reasons why he would have.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2017, 03:23:54 PM
I don't think the RTA angle should be ruled out, it is a plausible explanation.

However it is not that far to fairly isolated spots, which are possibly better places to hide a body.

In my opinion a plausible explanation is one which might possibly be supported by evidence.  We know of at least one vehicle driving past.  That is evidence that there was at least one.  Know of any others?

On the other hand there is evidence that the roads in Luz were quiet that night.

The Smiths wandered up one in three separate groups.  At least two individuals were carrying children with apparent small regard for traffic.  Jez and Gerry didn't seem to be in too much of a rush to get off the road.  Not a single witness recorded traffic concerns.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Innominate on May 13, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Quote
In my opinion a plausible explanation is one which might possibly be supported by evidence.  We know of at least one vehicle driving past.  That is evidence that there was at least one.  Know of any others?

On the other hand there is evidence that the roads in Luz were quiet that night.

This is a quick response to a reasonable question. In my opinion it makes more sense to stick with the OG theory of abduction because they may have more information than is publicly known. But as a possibility an RTA is not out of the question, IMHO.

I think what you are asking me to do is some kind of frequency analysis on the traffic to justify how likely it is an unsupervised child could be hit by a car is sleepy Luz.

By extension the same argument could be levelled against a possible abductor: what is the frequency of potential abductors passing an unsupervised child in order to analyse the chance of a stranger abduction.

I prefer to analyse it in the following way (but obviously you are free to disagree):

1) Children go missing, for short periods, all the time.
2) In 99,999 out of 100,000 (or what ever the unknowable odds are) they are found safe and well
3) Therefore you only hear about the rare events.
4) By definition Madeleine was affected by a rare event, e.g. an abductor or possibly a car

The example of this is James Bulger. After his mother lost sight of him for a few minutes, what were the odds of him being abducted from a shopping center by two young boys? Extremely remote IMO, possibly even less than an unsupervised child being hit by a car in Luz.
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2017, 07:24:52 PM
This is a quick response to a reasonable question. In my opinion it makes more sense to stick with the OG theory of abduction because they may have more information than is publicly known. But as a possibility an RTA is not out of the question, IMHO.

I think what you are asking me to do is some kind of frequency analysis on the traffic to justify how likely it is an unsupervised child could be hit by a car is sleepy Luz.

By extension the same argument could be levelled against a possible abductor: what is the frequency of potential abductors passing an unsupervised child in order to analyse the chance of a stranger abduction.

I prefer to analyse it in the following way (but obviously you are free to disagree):

1) Children go missing, for short periods, all the time.
2) In 99,999 out of 100,000 (or what ever the unknowable odds are) they are found safe and well
3) Therefore you only hear about the rare events.
4) By definition Madeleine was affected by a rare event, e.g. an abductor or possibly a car

The example of this is James Bulger. After his mother lost sight of him for a few minutes, what were the odds of him being abducted from a shopping center by two young boys? Extremely remote IMO, possibly even less than an unsupervised child being hit by a car in Luz.
One of the things I am ultra-cautious about is walking around after dark.

Sad to say, but drunk driving is not uncommon here.  Don't think Brit.  Here you pay a relatively small fine.  There is no 'points on your licence' scheme.  DDs are then free to repeat this cycle.

The worst offenders seem to be ex-pats.   8(8-))
Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2017, 03:04:06 PM
In my opinion a plausible explanation is one which might possibly be supported by evidence.  We know of at least one vehicle driving past.  That is evidence that there was at least one.  Know of any others?

On the other hand there is evidence that the roads in Luz were quiet that night.

The Smiths wandered up one in three separate groups.  At least two individuals were carrying children with apparent small regard for traffic.  Jez and Gerry didn't seem to be in too much of a rush to get off the road.  Not a single witness recorded traffic concerns.

Hayley Crawford drove past 5A at around 21:00. Her boyfriend, Nuno Conceicao was called out by reception at 20:30 to mend a lock up by the Millenium
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm

The executive chef drove from up near the Millenium to the Tapas, arriving at 21:10. I assume he passed 5A.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

Title: Re: The roadworks in Luz 3/5/07
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
I thought the road works were checked?