Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 06:40:08 PM
Title: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 06:40:08 PM
I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night. Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter? Which night did Matt stay out late? Who did he stay drinking with?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 07:37:24 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
Did the McCanns stay out late on the Tuesday night?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 07:42:55 PM
G-unit raised a similar issue before http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg250719#msg250719
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
Lace also questioned this statement. "I would question Mrs. Fenn's recollection of what she heard and when she heard it.
The crying episode, Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the Tuesday evening, this child cried for three quarters of an hour, then the child cried 'Daddy'.
In my opinion, what Mrs. Fenn heard was Amelie wake up crying, she then woke Sean and Madeleine, in my opinion Sean then cried, and then Madeleine called 'Daddy' she then went into Kate and Gerry's bedroom, Gerry was just about to go into their bedroom.
I think Mrs. Fenn got the timing wrong as this all happened later than she said it did.
In my opinion this night is also what Madeleine referred to when she said 'why didn't you come when Sean and me were crying' she meant the Tuesday night in my opinion, Sean and Madeleine were woken by Amelie crying. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6217.msg231788#msg231788
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: John on June 13, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night. Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter? Which night did Matt stay out late? Who did he stay drinking with?
It was the Tuesday night, the next night she went bout to her friends house to get some peace and quiet. The Thursday night she was at home and spoke over the balcony to one of the tapas crowd when she heard all the commotion going on.
I think you are confused Robbie, Mrs Fenn wasn't!
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 07:54:02 PM
It was the Tuesday night, the next night she went bout to her friends house to get some peace and quiet. The Thursday night she was at home and spoke over the balcony to one of the tapas crowd when she heard all the commotion going on.
I think you are confused Robbie, Mrs Fenn wasn't!
Well I'll admit I'm confused on this topic, and your post makes it even more confusing, for I thought we had established yesterday that Mrs Fenn had not gone out the next night.
I agree she was there on the Thursday night.
Can you recall why you think she went out on the Wednesday night?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 13, 2017, 08:06:27 PM
I sometimes wonder if Pamela Fenn got her days mixed up after all the time had passed. I'm definitely unsure which night was the late night. Which night could Madeleine cry for an hour and a quarter? Which night did Matt stay out late? Who did he stay drinking with?
Does this help?
Reply 'Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different I suppose cos it rained and things were off, although by the afternoon it had cleared up, erm and so on Wednesday night I didnt go to dinner cos I'd thrown up the night before, you know it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I'm never ill, neither is Matt, as long as I've known him I've never known him be sick, erm'. 1578 'So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace'' Reply 'Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I'd been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they'd said they'd been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but'. 1578 'On the Wednesday evening'. Reply 'Mmm'. 1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry'' Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'. 1578 'On Wednesday evening'. Reply 'Mmm'. 1578 'When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to'' Reply 'About half eight'. 1578 'About half eight'' Reply 'Mmm'. 1578 'And do you recall what time he returned'' Reply 'No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights'. 1578 'Why was that'' Reply 'Cos they'd gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments'.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 09:28:23 AM
OK so Matt stays out late on the Wednesday night but does that mean the McCanns stayed out late too? Wasn't that the night Gerry went back before Kate, the night Kate slept in the kids room on her own?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 09:47:39 AM
David Payne rogatory "00:10:35 1485 "What about the night before' The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then' Or did you see any pictures being taken then'' Reply "In the evening'' 1485 "Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.' Reply "We did, ....."
So David stayed out later. Wouldn't the McCanns stay too?
also " Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that, but apart from that there's nothing else.'"
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 14, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
OK so Matt stays out late on the Wednesday night but does that mean the McCanns stayed out late too. Wasn't that the night Gerry went back before Kate, the night Kate slept in the kids room on her own?
KMcC:
Regarding this night she says that none of the children cried, she would have noticed as she was in the room. Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter. On this night they also checked on the children every half hour; however she thinks that 45 minutes had gone by from the time of the last check to when they arrived, as exceptionally they went to the Tapas bar. On this day she thinks that Gerry arrived at the apartment around 23:50 and she arrived 5 minutes afterwards. She went to sleep in Madeleine's room 15/20 minutes afterwards. Before this she spent a few minutes in her bed next to Gerry's.
====
So Wednesday appears to be the late night.
===
KMcC wrt Tuesday:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
-------------
Pamela Fenn:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
====
The time of arrival from the Fenn statement ties up with the time of arrival from KMcC statement and the RO rogatory, so this would appear to indicate Mrs Fenn got her date wrong.
Obviously, if this is the case then KMcC and GMcC must have been aware that the children were crying when they returned, which would case doubt on the claim that Madeleine told them she had been crying the next morning.
But, it is confusing and I'm not sure that interpretation is correct.
It is also complicated by the fact the Mrs Fenn's statement and timing may have been public knowledge by the time of KMcC statement.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 10:28:01 AM
Good work once again Qwerty thanks. It was the bit I needed to find.
The thing is on the Wednesday night Gerry comes back first so maybe Madeleine stopped crying as soon as she heard Gerry arriving so Gerry was none the wiser that Madeleine had been crying. Madeleine then fell asleep and by the time Kate went into the room (arrived after Gerry, spent sometime in Gerry's company and then went to the kids room) she would not be aware Madeleine had been crying either.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2017, 12:00:40 PM
Weren't two of them bawling their heads off ? Unlikely that both would stop simultaneously when parent returned IMO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 12:10:35 PM
Weren't two of them bawling their heads off ? Unlikely that both would stop simultaneously when parent returned IMO
That could have been earlier before the mystery couple came and comforted the kids. A thought occurred what would happen if one of the friends doing a listening check on all the apartments went passed the McCann's apartment while the mystery couple were in there? What would they do about that?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2017, 12:22:49 PM
I have heard mention of them before, but where did the story of this mystery couple come from ? Is there ant proof that they even existed?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 12:34:20 PM
I have heard mention of them before, but where did the story of this mystery couple come from ? Is there ant proof that they even existed?
We had a thread on it recently and it is hard to work out but the only person likely to have been aware of a mystery couple next door was Rachael Mampilly as she stayed in apartment 5B all night.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
We had a thread on it recently and it is hard to work out but the only person likely to have been aware of a mystery couple next door was Rachael Mampilly as she stayed in apartment 5B all night.
Did she say there was a mystery couple ? If not, then who did ? If there is no identified source, then IMO, the existence of the couple is dubious.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 12:52:04 PM
Did she say there was a mystery couple ? If not, then who did ? If there is no identified source, then IMO, the existence of the couple is dubious.
Look if it was written down that she said that, there would be no mystery would there? But it transpires that Rachael had friends in the media and it might start from there. Even Kate thought there could be a mystery person who talked to Madeleine on Wednesday night. There was the stain on Madeleine's pyjamas that Kate couldn't explain. In other words there were clues.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2017, 12:56:40 PM
Look if it was written down that she said that, there would be no mystery would there? But it transpires that Rachael had friends in the media and it might start from there.
Identification would still seem to be a mystery even if there was an identifiable source, which there doesn't seem to be.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 14, 2017, 01:00:41 PM
Identification would still seem to be a mystery even if there was an identifiable source, which there doesn't seem to be.
Have you ever kept a secret? If you give a clue to someone next thing you'll get questioned about some other aspect of the secret and gradually the whole secret unravels. I can't say any more than that ATM.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 15, 2017, 10:09:08 AM
There is a little bit more, in the files, about the conversation at the Tapas table regarding the crying incident.
From the arrival time of FP this conversation would have been at most 1 hour before the alarm was raised.
FP and RO were sitting either side of KMcC. There are comments on this conversation in both rogatory statements.
----
FP:
1485 'Alright. Do you recall on the Tuesday night, I believe, Madeleine crying or somebody from the McCANN's apartment crying''
Reply 'I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, erm, as we were chatting at the table 'Oh', you know, 'I wonder', you know, 'what', 'what she cried about' or, you know, she'd asked Madeleine, erm, because I think Madeleine had said something 'Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried' and, you know, 'where were you' and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn't get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved on and, you know, didn't say anything more than that and wouldn't say, you know, whether she'd heard anything or been woken up or whether she had just woken up herself'
---
RO, as previously posted:
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry'' Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.
---
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 15, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Does anyone know the date on which Mrs Fenn's interview https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM was recorded, in which she denied ever having spoken to the police or any other journalists?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2017, 02:09:28 PM
Does anyone know the date on which Mrs Fenn's interview https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM was recorded, in which she denied ever having spoken to the police or any other journalists?
12 September:
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
There are earlier reports than that, Ferryman. Taken from Joana Morais
Daily express - Saturday August 18,2007: "A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daily Mail - 19th August 2007 : Among them will be ex-pat Pamela Fenn, a widow in her 70s. She claims she "scared off" an intruder who had broken into her apartment in the days before the McCanns arrived to stay in the holiday flat directly below her.
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.
What was Mrs Fenn actually referring to as "being rubbish" - the intruder incident or the crying? We know that Mrs Fenn's story surfaced online in late July 2007, well before the English police arrived with the cadaver dogs so who was responsible for suppressing her story from the PJ for nearly a month?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 15, 2017, 04:30:50 PM
There are earlier reports than that, Ferryman. Taken from Joana Morais
Daily express - Saturday August 18,2007: "A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daily Mail - 19th August 2007 : Among them will be ex-pat Pamela Fenn, a widow in her 70s. She claims she "scared off" an intruder who had broken into her apartment in the days before the McCanns arrived to stay in the holiday flat directly below her.
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.
What was Mrs Fenn actually referring to as "being rubbish" - the intruder incident or the crying? We know that Mrs Fenn's story surfaced online in late July 2007, well before the English police arrived with the cadaver dogs so who was responsible for suppressing her story from the PJ for nearly a month?
So we have a statement dated 20th August 2007 but later in Sept Mrs Fenn on video saying she hasn't spoken to anyone. It makes you wonder if she is reliable.
In the video who is it she says she hasn't spoken to?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2017, 08:44:51 PM
the media.
"I've never spoken to a journalist. They've written rubbish in the newspapers." Pamela Fenn
Video here https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html Jornal da Noite SIC 22-08-2007 see Mrs. Fenn statement at 01'20'
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 15, 2017, 09:29:13 PM
The hairdresser clip (the Kutting Room) is on here. https://youtu.be/igAhToRRRfE?t=1666. August 2007 documentary but I don't know when the clip was filmed but clearly the journalists had heard about Mrs Fenn.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2017, 09:35:24 PM
The hairdresser clip (the Kutting Room) is on here. https://youtu.be/igAhToRRRfE?t=1666. August 2007 documentary but I don't know when the clip was filmed but clearly the journalists had heard about Mrs Fenn.
Mrs Fenn's PJ interview was 20 August.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 15, 2017, 09:39:44 PM
???? And then I posted an image of it. You raised KR. Why ask me the reason I posted an image of that which you raised?
Simply because I thought you were inferring I was mistaken, that's all.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2017, 09:11:05 AM
The quiz night seems to have been on Tuesday but thy got back around 11:00 PM. Wednesday night it was late around midnight they returned.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2017, 02:30:05 PM
"While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child's bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child's bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used."
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm
A cot seen in the parent's bedroom on Wednesday suggests something happened on Tuesday night
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn't hear any, well you know, I didn't hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments.
Rachael heard nothing next door on Wednesday night. Pamela Fenn heard continuous crying for 75 minutes on Tuesday night.
"She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleine's mother was also there.
She confirms it having been on the Tuesday, 1 May 2007, that she was invited to the table of the group of which the McCann couple were part, by Gerry himself. --- That she recalls there being an empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been Madeleine's mother's place given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time. --- The photographs of the group of the McCann's friends having been shown to her, the deponent declares that from those photos seen she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence."
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm
Tuesday Quiz night - could not remember Kate or David being there.
"Kate McCann's mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27." https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
What was the reason for this mobile activity on Tuesday night? A question for Kate McCann to answer.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 16, 2017, 03:32:38 PM
--- That she recalls there being an empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been Madeleine's mother's place given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NAJOUA_CHEKAYA.htm
JT states ROB was not at Quiz night on Tuesday, which would explain the empty seat.
4078 “Okay.” Reply “So that night is the night that Russell didn’t actually come to the restaurant so coming back to what you were saying about is there anything that would highlight to people what there is, I actually carried his meals back to the room on that night and I say I don’t know whether it’s the Tuesday or the Wednesday err because he was staying with Evie because at that point we thought oh we don’t want to leave her in case she is sick again err and I think it was two nights before the Thursday so I’d say it would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”
JT confirms the late night was Wednesday night, when they had drinks in the bar area.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 16, 2017, 03:46:22 PM
So we have a statement dated 20th August 2007 but later in Sept Mrs Fenn on video saying she hasn't spoken to anyone. It makes you wonder if she is reliable.
In the video who is it she says she hasn't spoken to?
I'm not sure if she is a reliable witness or not.
The time is very precise and who arrived first is precise, but the date appears incorrect.
There is another slight twist.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 16, 2017, 07:10:16 PM
The time is very precise and who arrived first is precise, but the date appears incorrect.
There is another slight twist.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
In other words that is an undocumented situation, for the foreign women have to ring Murat because he is the one who can take the phone call but we don't get the names of the foreign women doing the calling. That had to be really early on in the investigation too. I know Bridget talks of Robert Murat leaving a card, maybe he left one with Rachael as well.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 18, 2017, 08:24:52 AM
Google Books has some extracts from 'Madeleine' available to the public; the chapter Missing refers to the 'crying incident'.
There is a danger in picking over the detail, but this was a book that was unprompted and it was written without the pressure of a being in a Police interview, so IMO it is a useful source of information on the case.
An extract from the chapter Missing states:
At breakfast time, Madeleine had a question for us: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
We were puzzled. Did she mean when they were having their bath? we asked her.
I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
IMO you cannot leave small children alone in the bath even for seconds. If you cannot leave them alone you would know they could not have cried in that situation wihout your presence in the room.
Perhaps this is picking at the detail, but it seems odd, unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: jassi on June 18, 2017, 09:10:18 AM
Google Books has some extracts from 'Madeleine' available to the public; the chapter Missing refers to the 'crying incident'.
There is a danger in picking over the detail, but this was a book that was unprompted and it was written without the pressure of a being in a Police interview, so IMO it is a useful source of information on the case.
An extract from the chapter Missing states:
At breakfast time, Madeleine had a question for us: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
We were puzzled. Did she mean when they were having their bath? we asked her.
I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
IMO you cannot leave small children alone in the bath even for seconds. If you cannot leave them alone you would know they could not have cried in that situation wihout your presence in the room.
Perhaps this is picking at the detail, but it seems odd, unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.
Indeed. That's when fatal accidents can happen - very quickly.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2017, 09:12:51 AM
Google Books has some extracts from 'Madeleine' available to the public; the chapter Missing refers to the 'crying incident'.
There is a danger in picking over the detail, but this was a book that was unprompted and it was written without the pressure of a being in a Police interview, so IMO it is a useful source of information on the case.
An extract from the chapter Missing states:
At breakfast time, Madeleine had a question for us: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
We were puzzled. Did she mean when they were having their bath? we asked her.
I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
IMO you cannot leave small children alone in the bath even for seconds. If you cannot leave them alone you would know they could not have cried in that situation wihout your presence in the room.
Perhaps this is picking at the detail, but it seems odd, unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.
Obviously the parents would have been there at bath time, wouldn't they? Although Gerry also mentions bath time in his interview with Dermot Murnaghan;
'Was it when they were bathing, getting them, you know, first putting them down in that period when they're really tired. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id242.htm
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 18, 2017, 11:58:14 AM
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 18, 2017, 12:10:42 PM
If the children were crying then they weren't drowning. Maybe they were crying during bath-time on the Wednesday night - Gerry went to the bar before Kate that night so possibly the children were fractious and he left Kate to deal with them.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm snipped That evening myself and my partner attended the 'Tapas' restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche's facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep.
I found out that Jerry was a cardiologist in a Hospital. At this time his wife was putting the children to bed. We received a call from the creche informing that our son was awake. My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the creche and then returned to the apartment.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 18, 2017, 03:59:38 PM
Google Books has some extracts from 'Madeleine' available to the public; the chapter Missing refers to the 'crying incident'.
There is a danger in picking over the detail, but this was a book that was unprompted and it was written without the pressure of a being in a Police interview, so IMO it is a useful source of information on the case.
An extract from the chapter Missing states:
At breakfast time, Madeleine had a question for us: 'Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night?'
We were puzzled. Did she mean when they were having their bath? we asked her.
I'm not sure what to make of that statement.
IMO you cannot leave small children alone in the bath even for seconds. If you cannot leave them alone you would know they could not have cried in that situation wihout your presence in the room.
Perhaps this is picking at the detail, but it seems odd, unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.
I would disagree with your second paragraph. IMO, later recollection of traumatic incidents would tend to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: carlymichelle on June 18, 2017, 04:58:17 PM
the bath thing puzzles me why should sean and maddie cry in the bath??
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
the bath thing puzzles me why should sean and maddie cry in the bath??
Would Gerry expect Kate to bath the kids on her own? If so why was it so important to go to the Tapas? The Wilkins couple make it sound like the Wednesday night but Amaral had it on the Tuesday IMO.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 18, 2017, 06:31:32 PM
If the children were crying then they weren't drowning. Maybe they were crying during bath-time on the Wednesday night - Gerry went to the bar before Kate that night so possibly the children were fractious and he left Kate to deal with them.
K and GMcC are trying to explain when Madeleine may have been crying, because they claim to have no recollection of Madeleine or Sean crying.
One of their suggested explanations is: 'We were puzzled. Did she mean when they were having their bath? we asked her.'
As an explanation that makes no sense to me.
IMO a health professional should know not to leave children in the bath, especially the twins. IMO it is an explanation that should not have occurred to K and GMcC.
At the same time Mrs Fenn appears to be describing the return of K and GMcC on the Wednesday evening. If this report is correctly describing the Wednesday night return then Madeleine was up and about when GMcC returned first.
I am trying to make sense of these discrepancies.
The crying incident was important enough for KMcC to have three conversations about it at the Tapas bar on Thursday with FP, RO, and JT. Both FP and JT reported an increase in intensity of checking, without being sure why this increase in intensity of checking occurred.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2017, 05:53:20 AM
I nearly drowned in my bath when I was about three or four. Can't remember what age, but I had soaped the back of the bath so I could slide down it. Good heavens, the things one remembers. My mother hoiked me out by my hair, no great harm done. And I certainly didn't think that she was neglecting me. Although I suppose she might have been doing so.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 19, 2017, 06:14:27 AM
I nearly drowned in my bath when I was about three or four. Can't remember what age, but I had soaped the back of the bath so I could slide down it. Good heavens, the things one remembers. My mother hoiked me out by my hair, no great harm done. And I certainly didn't think that she was neglecting me. Although I suppose she might have been doing so.
Sounds like she had an eye on you.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2017, 06:27:01 AM
No, she just heard me gurgling and choking as I very nearly drowned. Mind you, I was never a great swimmer after that.
Sounds like it was fun while it lasted.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Innominate on June 19, 2017, 08:28:37 AM
Just for the sake of completeness, I've extracted, in interview order, all the reports of the crying incident from K and GMcC statements:
G : 4/7/2007
Between the 28th April, the day they arrived and the time the disappearance was discovered, he says that nothing unusual happened, only referring to an episode on the morning of the 3rd May, when Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying. As he did not hear anything, the witness did not go to the bedroom, however he finds his daughter's comment to be strange, maybe because it was the first time that she had made it.
K : 4/7/2007
She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it.
G 10/7/2007
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left [withdrew herself] without any explanation.
K : 6/9/2007
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment.
G : 7/9/2007
No mention that I can find.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2017, 08:51:43 AM
Nooo. It was awful. I nearly died. I barely learned how to swim after that. Water was a horror story for me from then on. I always knew that I could swim, but I just couldn't get in the water.
I did solve the problem in the end by wearing a mask that covered my nose, so I only had to worry about my mouth, which was actually dead easy. But I was so traumatised by the incident that it took me a very long time to recover.
But I was a rather recalcitrant child.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 19, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
Nooo. It was awful. I nearly died. I barely learned how to swim after that. Water was a horror story for me from then on. I always knew that I could swim, but I just couldn't get in the water.
I did solve the problem in the end by wearing a mask that covered my nose, so I only had to worry about my mouth, which was actually dead easy. But I was so traumatised by the incident that it took me a very long time to recover.
But I was a rather recalcitrant child.
I meant the sliding down the soapy bath end; that must have been fun.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2017, 09:08:08 AM
No, she just heard me gurgling and choking as I very nearly drowned. Mind you, I was never a great swimmer after that.
What was her reaction, about what happened.
Did your mum blame you, or herself.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 20, 2017, 09:39:29 AM
I don't think it's possible to come to any definite conclusions re the crying incident - because there is so much that we don't know. We would need to know what all the other members of the group's reactions were to this 'news'. For instance Russell stayed in on Tues with his daughter who was poorly. Did she cry a lot during that time and is it possible that Jane took the short cut and went in via the patio door - left unlocked for her because Russell was home?
I doubt if Rachel who stayed in Wednesday would have missed two children crying for any length of time in the apartment right next door to hers - and did Matt also use their patio door that night?. Could it have been their little girl who Mrs Fenn heard crying on Tuesday night?
Surely Mrs Fenn would have heard the McCanns patio door open twice on Wednesday night as Gerry went home before Kate.
I don't take Mrs Fenns assessment of the age of the child as necessarily accurate. A new born or very young baby's cry is easy to identify but as they get older it would be much more difficult to put an age on the child - especially as different children cry in different ways - and at different levels.
The group don't seem to have been asked any questions about this incident by the PJ - probably because they were back in the UK by the time Mrs Fenn was finally interviewed. And the PJ apparently didn't think it was important enough to make it one of the rogatory questions.
The account given by Amaral in his book is very convincing.
AIMHO
All from memory - it's too hot to check. Am happy to be corrected if necessary.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2017, 04:32:36 PM
Can I remind posters that goading posts will be removed.
Please abide by forum rules.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2017, 06:18:50 PM
G-Unit made perfectly clear the post was directed to Benice.
You intervened.
Let's get the basic facts right.
And please don't throw your opinion of my habits into the mix. 8((()*/
The forum allows any member to reply to another. We are after all a discussion forum. Please may we now get back on topic and endeavour to remain there. Thank you.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 20, 2017, 06:57:14 PM
The forum allows any member to reply to another. We are after all a discussion forum. Please may we now get back on topic and endeavour to remain there. Thank you.
It is indeed a discussion forum, hence why I am perfectly entitled to respond to davel.
If davel intervenes, am I not permitted to do the same?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 20, 2017, 07:20:17 PM
And I provided them as requested. They were direct 'word for word' quotes from Amaral's book which proved the points I had made.
I have no idea why my post was removed and would appreciate an explanation from someone who does know.
TY.
You did, and I thanked you.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 20, 2017, 10:17:20 PM
I have DELETED this post because Angelo has altered Carlys offensive post to something more acceptable which doesn't libel The Mccanns any more.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2017, 10:30:28 PM
Amaral says in his book that Madeleine cried on Tuesday night from 10.30 to 11.45 pm. He doesn't say where he got the information but it is in the files. He differs from her parents by placing their conversation with Madeleine about crying on the Wednesday morning rather than Thursday.
As we don't know why he wrote what he did, allegations about his motives are opinions, not facts.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 20, 2017, 10:35:21 PM
I have DELETED this post because Angelo has altered Carlys offensive post to something more acceptable which doesn't libel The Mccanns any more.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2017, 10:39:08 PM
Quote from: carlymichelle on June 18, 2017, 04:58:17 PM
the bath thing puzzles me who leaves 2 two year olds anda 3 year old in a bath alone and why should sean and maddie cry in the bath?? -End quote
Quote from sadie (unanswered as yet) Who are you suggesting left 2 two year olds and a three year old alone in the bath? - End quote
So Carly, just who are you suggesting left 2 two year olds and a three year old alone in a bath.
ETA. I notice that you are here, on forum again. Please can I have an answer this time TY
Perhaps you would care to answer my question Sadie. You posted;
On top of this we have Mrs Fenns words that she had not spoken to the PJ. So how did they get her statement? We have all witnessed Mrs Fenn saying that she did not speak to the Police . so we know that is a fact
I replied;
I have a video in which Mrs Fenn denies speaking to journalists. When did she deny speaking to the PJ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP30PRieuU4
Perhaps you would care to answer my question Sadie. You posted;
On top of this we have Mrs Fenns words that she had not spoken to the PJ. So how did they get her statement? We have all witnessed Mrs Fenn saying that she did not speak to the Police . so we know that is a fact
I replied;
I have a video in which Mrs Fenn denies speaking to journalists. When did she deny speaking to the PJ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP30PRieuU4
Yes and when I realised that i might have made a mistake, I deleted the offending bit straight away and on forum told you that I had ammended it.
Carly has left a post up intimating that the Mccanns left their children on their own in the bath ... with no proof ... and she is declining /refusing to do anything about it.
ETA Angelo has now removed the libellous post by Carly.
Is it OK to start new and very nasty myths against innocent people? ... or can she prove it ? Can you?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2017, 11:19:47 PM
Perhaps you would care to answer my question Sadie. You posted;
On top of this we have Mrs Fenns words that she had not spoken to the PJ. So how did they get her statement? We have all witnessed Mrs Fenn saying that she did not speak to the Police . so we know that is a fact
I replied;
I have a video in which Mrs Fenn denies speaking to journalists. When did she deny speaking to the PJ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP30PRieuU4
SIC news item 22 August 2007 With thanks to Textusa for transcript/translation
Presenter: The PJ has heard again, this week, the British octogenarian who lives above the apartment from where Maddie disappeared, but Pamela Fenn, botherered by the journalists' attention, denied having spoken with the police and said she didn't have any information about the case. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
Whether she did or whether she didn't we will never know for certain ... but apparently SIC seem to be of the opinion that she did. Now may we please be less argumentative and get back to the riveting question of what night it was that Mrs Fenn heard an unidentified child crying. Tuesday or Wednesday?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 20, 2017, 11:24:10 PM
Yes and when I realised that i might have made a mistake, I deleted the offending bit straight away and on forum told you that I had ammended it.
Carly has left a post up intimating that the Mccanns left their children on their own in the bath ... with no proof ... and she is declining /refusing to do anything about it.
Is it OK to start new and very nasty myths against innocent people? ... or can she prove it ? Can you?
I think you commented to misty, not to me. Still. you did delete the offending comment.
The McCanns wondered whether the children cried at bath time. As they said they were both present, they should know the answer to that.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
I don't think it's possible to come to any definite conclusions re the crying incident - because there is so much that we don't know. We would need to know what all the other members of the group's reactions were to this 'news'. For instance Russell stayed in on Tues with his daughter who was poorly. Did she cry a lot during that time and is it possible that Jane took the short cut and went in via the patio door - left unlocked for her because Russell was home?
I doubt if Rachel who stayed in Wednesday would have missed two children crying for any length of time in the apartment right next door to hers - and did Matt also use their patio door that night?. Could it have been their little girl who Mrs Fenn heard crying on Tuesday night?
Surely Mrs Fenn would have heard the McCanns patio door open twice on Wednesday night as Gerry went home before Kate.
I don't take Mrs Fenns assessment of the age of the child as necessarily accurate. A new born or very young baby's cry is easy to identify but as they get older it would be much more difficult to put an age on the child - especially as different children cry in different ways - and at different levels.
The group don't seem to have been asked any questions about this incident by the PJ - probably because they were back in the UK by the time Mrs Fenn was finally interviewed. And the PJ apparently didn't think it was important enough to make it one of the rogatory questions.
The account given by Amaral in his book is very convincing.
AIMHO
All from memory - it's too hot to check. Am happy to be corrected if necessary.
FAO Starti.
By removing the comment I made immediately after the bolded sentence above, you have effectively changed it's meaning. It now sounds almost like a compliment. My comment - now removed - pointed out the reason why it sounded so convincing - and was not in any way complimentary.
That is exactly what Amaral does IMO. He leaves out vital bits of information and insodoing completely changes the intended meaning of a statement. - but without actually telling a lie.
Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 21, 2017, 09:25:41 AM
By removing the comment I made immediately after the bolded sentence above, you have effectively changed it's meaning. It now sounds almost like a compliment. My comment - now removed - pointed out the reason why it sounded so convincing - and was not in any way complimentary.
That is exactly what Amaral does IMO. He leaves out vital bits of information and insodoing completely changes the intended meaning of a statement. - but without actually telling a lie.
Disgraceful.
By constantly removing any criticism of amaral from threads it makes it appear there is no criticism and presents, a, distorted view of the facts Does amaral understand that a, fair amount of, what he, says is untrue So does he not understand the facts or, is, he, deliberately distorting them
A, good topic for a new thread
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 21, 2017, 09:31:10 AM
Amaral says in his book that Madeleine cried on Tuesday night from 10.30 to 11.45 pm. He doesn't say where he got the information but it is in the files. He differs from her parents by placing their conversation with Madeleine about crying on the Wednesday morning rather than Thursday.
As we don't know why he wrote what he did, allegations about his motives are opinions, not facts.
There is no evidence in the files to show that it is a proven fact that Madeleine was the child heard crying. The McCanns disputed the claim.
Why would he change the date in the files of Madeleine's conversation with her parents to the morning immediately following the crying incidence.
Why would he omit to mention Sean and insodoing give his readers the impression that it was only Madeleine who cried.
Can anyone come up with any credible reasons as to how he could 'innocently' get so much so wrong in his account of the crying incident? He claims his book is based on the files.
Is it just a happy coincidence that every wrong claim he made just happened to bolster his unproven claim that it was Madeleine who cried on Tuesday night.
I'm sure that after reading his account - a huge number of his readers would have no question in their minds that it was Madeleine who cried - and IMO that is exactly what he intended them to believe.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2017, 09:36:29 AM
By constantly removing any criticism of amaral from threads it makes it appear there is no criticism and presents, a, distorted view of the facts Does amaral understand that a, fair amount of, what he, says is untrue So does he not understand the facts or, is, he, deliberately distorting them
A, good topic for a new thread
It has to be untrue for he has presented multiple hypotheses for the same event.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 21, 2017, 09:38:27 AM
By constantly removing any criticism of amaral from threads it makes it appear there is no criticism and presents, a, distorted view of the facts Does amaral understand that a, fair amount of, what he, says is untrue So does he not understand the facts or, is, he, deliberately distorting them
A, good topic for a new thread
If everyone else's statements can be scrutinised and commented upon when it comes to the crying incident then - even if it is only in the interest of balance - I can see no valid reason why Amaral's 'statements' made in his book on this subject should not be included in the debate.
IMO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2017, 10:19:19 AM
There is no evidence in the files to show that it is a proven fact that Madeleine was the child heard crying. The McCanns disputed the claim.
Why would he change the date in the files of Madeleine's conversation with her parents to the morning immediately following the crying incidence.
Why would he omit to mention Sean and insodoing give his readers the impression that it was only Madeleine who cried.
Can anyone come up with any credible reasons as to how he could 'innocently' get so much so wrong in his account of the crying incident? He claims his book is based on the files.
Is it just a happy coincidence that every wrong claim he made just happened to bolster his unproven claim that it was Madeleine who cried on Tuesday night.
I'm sure that after reading his account - a huge number of his readers would have no question in their minds that it was Madeleine who cried - and IMO that is exactly what he intended them to believe.
AIMHO
I am allowed to point out that the first statements made by the McCanns say that Madeline told them the twins had cried on Wednesday evening. That changed in Gerry's second statement to Madeleine and one twin.
What I am not allowed to do is accuse them of lying because I don't know why their story changed.
Why should posters be allowed to accuse Amaral of lying when they don't know why he says what he says? They can point out that his account differs from that of others, but they should stop short of accusations if we are to have a level playing field.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 21, 2017, 01:16:30 PM
I am allowed to point out that the first statements made by the McCanns say that Madeline told them the twins had cried on Wednesday evening. That changed in Gerry's second statement to Madeleine and one twin.
What I am not allowed to do is accuse them of lying because I don't know why their story changed.
Why should posters be allowed to accuse Amaral of lying when they don't know why he says what he says? They can point out that his account differs from that of others, but they should stop short of accusations if we are to have a level playing field.
Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public. It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.
I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be - and way before the book went to the publisher too. Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the facts of this case - on the part of the one person who should have known what he was talking about.
With regard to a level playing field. Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam. IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.
It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: kizzy on June 21, 2017, 01:36:35 PM
Ameral was there, with first hand information. [doesn't believe abduction]
Mccanns there who do know what happened , but nothing to back up abduction. [apart from there say so]
Now in stark reality, one of them are right, it's just which one.
Or who you would rather believe.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 21, 2017, 01:47:29 PM
Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public. It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.
I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be - and way before the book went to the publisher too. Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the facts of this case - on the part of the one person who should have known what he was talking about.
With regard to a level playing field. Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam. IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.
It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.
AIMHO
If posters can't prove he deliberately lied rather than being mistaken or stupid they should not be allowed to label him a liar. Similar issue, same rules.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 21, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
Amarals claims were not made in a statement - they were carefully chosen by him to be included in a book which was going to be sold to the general public. It was his claim that his allegations were based on the information in the files- a claim which formed a major part of his defence IIRC.
I do not believe that he would not have rigorously vetted every word in that book- probably several times over - before he was completely satisfied that the contents were exactly how he wanted them to be - and way before the book went to the publisher too. Therefore IMO either he deliberately changed evidence contained in the files to suit himself - or if all his false claims were innocent mistakes, then that shows an alarming degree of ignorance of the facts of this case - on the part of the one person who should have known what he was talking about.
With regard to a level playing field. Hardly a day passes without repeated criticism of the McCann's actions being posted on this forum ad nauseam. IMO compared to the McCanns - Amaral has got away very lightly when it comes to criticism.
It seems to me that some people thoroughly approve of the PT law which apparently allows Amaral to accuse others of lying - but strongly object when the same law is applied to him.
AIMHO
Lots of woulds, coulds, might have, and IYO.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: kizzy on June 21, 2017, 01:57:01 PM
Be nice is being very careful not to post lion as fact and that is why she has included these caveats Some posters simply post and believe their opinion is fact
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Benice on June 21, 2017, 05:21:52 PM
So in your logic, every case solved has to be first hand information. [by each senior officer].
When you are in charge of a case. i would guess that is why you have a team
To relay first hand info , to you
Actually it was you who mentioned 'first hand information'. I presumed you did so because you thought it would be an advantage to any policeman when it came to investigating a case.
I merely pointed out that in this case Amaral did not have the advantage of first hand information - and had to rely on secondhand info from others.
His choice - but a choice I will never understand.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
If posters can't prove he deliberately lied rather than being mistaken or stupid they should not be allowed to label him a liar. Similar issue, same rules.
Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.
However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not - then how can we claim to be a debating forum. I don't think we can.
This is my personal opinion. No-one is obliged to agree with it.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2017, 06:20:37 PM
Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.
However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not - then how can we claim to be a debating forum. I don't think we can.
This is my personal opinion. No-one is obliged to agree with it.
If people can say 'Amaral lied imo' then why not 'Kate lied imo'?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 21, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Proving that someone deliberately lied - without their admission is virtually impossible.
However, if common sense, logic and reasoned thought (even when backed up with cites) are no longer allowed to be utilised when forming and giving an opinion on whether someone has lied or not - then how can we claim to be a debating forum. I don't think we can.
This is my personal opinion. No-one is obliged to agree with it.
You can say someone got something wrong in your opinion based on x, y and z without fear of censure. Lying implies a deliberate act to deceive and is difficult to prove, hence libellous.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2017, 07:27:10 PM
If people can say 'Amaral lied imo' then why not 'Kate lied imo'?
Amaral was handed a criminal conviction from a Portuguese court for perjury ... it is therefore a proven fact that his falsifying of documents to cover for alleged torturers is not a matter of opinion.
Perjury:: the offence of wilfully telling an untruth or making a misrepresentation under oath.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2017, 07:29:26 PM
Amaral was handed a criminal conviction from a Portuguese court for perjury ... it is therefore a proven fact that his falsifying of documents to cover for alleged torturers is not a matter of opinion.
Perjury:: the offence of wilfully telling an untruth or making a misrepresentation under oath.
It would be unsafe to say because he lied in one case he lied in another.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2017, 08:13:05 PM
We are all way off topic yet again, me included, back to which night of the week? please.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 21, 2017, 09:47:09 PM
Much depends on from whom Amaral was sourcing his information on Madeleine's case. There is a report here which refers to crying on the Wednesday. https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/several-witnesses-are-ready-to-help-pj.html *snipped* Pamela Fenn was heard by PJ on Monday for 4 hours, and her deposition shows some important details. The most relevant one is in the difference of 40 minutes between the moment when she offered to call the police for Kate McCann, who then said she had already done so, and the registered time of the call to GNR, informing of Madeleine’s disappearance. This witness, who was counseled by PJ not to make any statements to the media, also said she heard the child crying for her father, on the eve of her disappearance.
There is much information on that page which is not reflected in the public files yet seems to have leaked its way out of Portimao to Levy & Morais. How much of it is accurate relative to the evidence gathered? I truly do not know how much authenticity should be placed on the contents of Mrs Fenn's alleged statement, bearing in mind whatever she originally may have revealed within her community, but not to the police, led to the myth of Chaplins.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 21, 2017, 10:46:48 PM
His refusal to settle out of court has to be top of that particular shop. IMNSHO
Off topic but worth a response. Every libel action the McCanns have won were settled out of court which is testament to the jelly men who run newspapers.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2017, 01:03:57 AM
Much depends on from whom Amaral was sourcing his information on Madeleine's case. There is a report here which refers to crying on the Wednesday. https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/several-witnesses-are-ready-to-help-pj.html *snipped* Pamela Fenn was heard by PJ on Monday for 4 hours, and her deposition shows some important details. The most relevant one is in the difference of 40 minutes between the moment when she offered to call the police for Kate McCann, who then said she had already done so, and the registered time of the call to GNR, informing of Madeleine’s disappearance. This witness, who was counseled by PJ not to make any statements to the media, also said she heard the child crying for her father, on the eve of her disappearance.
There is much information on that page which is not reflected in the public files yet seems to have leaked its way out of Portimao to Levy & Morais. How much of it is accurate reltive to the evidence gathered? I truly do not know how much authenticity should be placed on the contents of Mrs Fenn's alleged statement, bearing in mind whatever she originally may have revealed within her community, but not to the police, led to the myth of Chaplins.
It is an interesting page indeed. Why should any credence be given to the alleged account given by Mrs Fenn when it appears cheek by jowl with such a shameless pack of lies and innuendo.
I particularly liked the insidious way the 14 bottles of wine seed was planted ~ "neither confirmed or denied" ~ who just stated "It's not in the case file".
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 01:56:57 AM
Claiming that he deliberately lied is not an explanation, it's an accusation that can't be proved.
So why has he got so much wrong After all this time does he still not understand He claims in his documentary he can prove maddie died in the apartment He cant So what he is, saying is untrue
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 08:00:48 AM
Off topic but worth a response. Every libel action the McCanns have won were settled out of court which is testament to the jelly men who run newspapers.
In your opinion. IMO it's common knowledge that out of court settlements only happen when the newspapers' legal teams tell them they don't stand a chance of winning the case if it did go to court. IOW when you can't win - it's preferable to limit the bad publicity as much as possible - and pay a smaller amount than a court may award.
Newspapers don't employ expensive lawyers for nothing.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
Off topic but worth a response. Every libel action the McCanns have won were settled out of court which is testament to the jelly men who run newspapers.
More opinion posted as fact It's because the papers had no defence that they settled Imo
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: slartibartfast on June 22, 2017, 08:18:10 AM
It is an interesting page indeed. Why should any credence be given to the alleged account given by Mrs Fenn when it appears cheek by jowl with such a shameless pack of lies and innuendo.
I particularly liked the insidious way the 14 bottles of wine seed was planted ~ "neither confirmed or denied" ~ who just stated "It's not in the case file".
A classic example of a genetic fallacy.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 10:07:38 AM
I didn't know there was such a thing as a genetic fallacy. "Question: "What is the genetic fallacy?"
Answer: A genetic fallacy is an illogical argument for or against an idea based on the origin of the idea. An example of a genetic fallacy is the statement “It will rain on Tuesday because my father said so.” The speaker’s father may be a good man and a good father, but it doesn’t necessarily translate that he knows for certain what the weather will be some time in the future. Another statement that illustrates the genetic fallacy is “This book is horrible—after all, look who wrote it.” Those who commit the genetic fallacy offer evaluations based solely on the source of a thing or the history of an idea, rather than judging the actual merits (or demerits) of that thing or idea."
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: John on June 22, 2017, 10:33:55 AM
All posters please note that it is a breach of forum rules to claim that any living person is a liar. I think it is also worth reminding again that defamatory comments generally are a no no on this forum and should be avoided. Moderators have enough to do without having to remove such comments especially when the intention was simply to goad.
Please consider carefully what you post and if in doubt refer posts to me.
Back on topic please. TY
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 22, 2017, 12:30:51 PM
I notice that Carly is hiding behind your skirts. She couldn't defend what she said ... so blocked her Pm's and then kept her mouth shut. What a cowardly act. %56&
Knowing that she couldn't defend such implied libel (IMO), why didn't she do the proper thing and remove the offending statement?
Have you forgotten the meaning of debate? It is plain to see that the Supreme Court decision has had a profound effect on your ability for rational discussion. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2017, 12:36:43 PM
So why has he got so much wrong After all this time does he still not understand He claims in his documentary he can prove maddie died in the apartment He cant So what he is, saying is untrue
Maybe so, but if he believes it he's not deliberately lying, is he?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 12:49:28 PM
You can be very sure that Amaral knows much more than he is prepared to make public.
Anything Amaral knows should be contained within the Portuguese case files - the same files the current team are using to not investigate the McCanns & their friends, IMHO. If not, he must be guilty of withholding evidence.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2017, 01:33:37 PM
What other explanation could there be His conclusion s don't fit the evidence He states them as fact If he is not deliberately saying something that's false then he must believe something that is false
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 01:57:48 PM
Anything Amaral knows should be contained within the Portuguese case files - the same files the current team are using to not investigate the McCanns & their friends, IMHO. If not, he must be guilty of withholding evidence.
Do you think policemen never overhear conversations or get told something off the record? The Tapas staff, for example, said things in conversation with the police that didn't appear in their formal statements.
Do you think policemen never overhear conversations or get told something off the record? The Tapas staff, for example, said things in conversation with the police that didn't appear in their formal statements.
Compare with these statements; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SVETLANA_VITORINO.htm
They both mention a man leaving the restaurant for 30 minutes in their conversations, but not in their statements.
Amaral claimed in the documentary he would prove laddie died in the apartment He presented the evidence he thought proved it It didnt So does he simply does not understand the evidence and the proof of that is the documentary
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2017, 02:13:34 PM
What other explanation could there be His conclusion s don't fit the evidence He states them as fact If he is not deliberately saying something that's false then he must believe something that is false
That your opinion is wrong?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 02:15:24 PM
It isn't my opinion He doesn't understand the evidence in the files That is a fact not opinion If you cannot see that then you don't understand the evidence in the files And that is also a fact
What does seem to be a fact is that you think you appear to think you are the expert on evidence and on the files. Would that be the PJ files you are referring to? Containing non verbatim statements taken by allegedly unreliable interpreters? Statements which have been twice translated?
Of course Amaral was able read and understood most of them in his own language.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 03:18:03 PM
What does seem to be a fact is that you think you appear to think you are the expert on evidence and on the files. Would that be the PJ files you are referring to? Containing non verbatim statements taken by allegedly unreliable interpreters? Statements which have been twice translated?
Of course Amaral was able read and understood most of them in his own language.
You are avoiding the point for which you have no answer Amaral claimed he could prove Maddie died in the apartment He couldn't He was wrong What is the explanation for him.being so out of touch Try and answer the post The point is you cannot
A detective Revered by so many sceptics Simply did not understand the basics
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 03:24:26 PM
What does seem to be a fact is that you think you appear to think you are the expert on evidence and on the files. Would that be the PJ files you are referring to? Containing non verbatim statements taken by allegedly unreliable interpreters? Statements which have been twice translated?
Of course Amaral was able read and understood most of them in his own language.
Amaral read what was in Portuguese The McCanns gave their statements in English He had no access to their original statements as we dont
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2017, 03:25:09 PM
What does seem to be a fact is that you think you appear to think you are the expert on evidence and on the files. Would that be the PJ files you are referring to? Containing non verbatim statements taken by allegedly unreliable interpreters? Statements which have been twice translated?
Of course Amaral was able read and understood most of them in his own language.
You are now claiming to know what I think More than a tad ridiculous Opinion as fact and par for the course
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2017, 03:32:43 PM
You are avoiding the point for which you have no answer Amaral claimed he could prove Maddie died in the apartment He couldn't He was wrong What is the explanation for him.being so out of touch Try and answer the post The point is you cannot
A detective Revered by so many sceptics Simply did not understand the basics
As a reminder, none of the current theories prevalent have been proved or disproved.
We have no way of knowing what other information, if any, Amaral had access to.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2017, 03:34:06 PM
Amaral claimed he could prove maddie died in the apartments produced his evidence to support his claim He was wrong Not my opinion but fact There is no proof maddie died in the apartment...that us a fact and amaral was wrong
He can have any opinion he wants but he cannot claim.his opinions are facts
That is your opinion.
Amaral has expressed his theories.
Some will agree with him, some won't.
You aren't involved in the investigation, and you do not know anymore than the rest of us.
He was involved for a few months, and may have information not in the public domain.
There are several theories as to Madeleine'so fate, none of which have been proven or disproven.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2017, 05:06:03 PM
You obviously haven't seen the vide I am referring to At the start amaral claimed he would prove maddie died in the apartment As we all know he could not and did not do that He therefore does not understand the evidence
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 05:25:05 PM
Whatever it was it seems to have been very much behind his mistaken zeal to have Madeleine's parents declared arguidos. Part of the build up towards that was a campaign of press leaks from 'a source close to the investigation' one of which seems to have been the release of the "why didn't you ... " along with the confusion of Mrs Fenn's statement about the anonymous child crying incident and the various interpretations put on that.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 05:30:14 PM
Didn't Amaral in court through his lawyer, say the same thing ?
Or have you forgotten that ?
Admirals lawyer admitted maddie May still be alive There is no record of Amaral agreeing You obviously haven't seen the video I'm referring to Amaral did not produce proof maddie died in the apartment as he claimed he would
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 22, 2017, 05:44:26 PM
Whatever it was it seems to have been very much behind his mistaken zeal to have Madeleine's parents declared arguidos. Part of the build up towards that was a campaign of press leaks from 'a source close to the investigation' one of which seems to have been the release of the "why didn't you ... " along with the confusion of Mrs Fenn's statement about the anonymous child crying incident and the various interpretations put on that.
Mistaken zeal?
The McCanns announced they were leaving Portugal. The PJ had the choice of letting them leave, or of interviewing them before they departed. They chose to interview before departure. With what they had, that necessitated making the McCanns arguidos.
Source - Kate's book. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 05:46:24 PM
The McCanns announced they were leaving Portugal. The PJ had the choice of letting them leave, or of interviewing them before they departed. They chose to interview before departure. With what they had, that necessitated making the McCanns arguidos.
Source - Kate's book. 8((()*/
And the evidence used to make them arguidos shown to be baseless Source...the archiving report
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2017, 05:47:08 PM
Admirals lawyer admitted maddie May still be alive There is no record of Amaral agreeing You obviously haven't seen the video I'm referring to Amaral did not produce proof maddie died in the apartment as he claimed he would
You can type all you will Davel.
It won't make a scrap of difference.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 05:48:44 PM
Amaral claims the dog's alert was to cadaver odour That is not a fact It therefore shows he does not understand the evidence If you do not realise that then you do not understand the evidence
We already know the alerts weren't corroborated.
Amaral has his theories, just like other people.
The case remains unsolved.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 07:40:45 PM
Can you not see the point Amaral is claiming as a fact that the alert was to cadaver It is not a fact He is wrong to claim.It as a fact I'm surprised you cannot grasp something which is so simple
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 22, 2017, 07:52:34 PM
Amaral claims the dog's alert was to cadaver odour That is not a fact It therefore shows he does not understand the evidence If you do not realise that then you do not understand the evidence
Amaral claimed that not only did the dog alert to cadaver odour but that it was Madeleine's cadaver odour as no-one else was shown to have died in apartment 5A in the past. That was a serious flaw in his thesis, simply because there may have been an unreported death in the vicinity (including next door as the odour can penetrate concrete).
In the case of Bella Bond (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Bond_murder_case) no-one in authority was even aware that the little girl was missing, let alone dead. Had her remains not been discovered & a facial reconstruction undertaken, the authorities would never have discovered that a cadaver alert in a refrigerator actually did pertain to a dead child, about whom they had no prior knowledge.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2017, 07:57:50 PM
Amaral claimed that not only did the dog alert to cadaver odour but that it was Madeleine's cadaver odour as no-one else was shown to have died in apartment 5A in the past. That was a serious flaw in his thesis, simply because there may have been an unreported death in the vicinity (including next door as the odour can penetrate concrete).
In the case of Bella Bond (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Bond_murder_case) no-one in authority was even aware that the little girl was missing, let alone dead. Had her remains not been discovered & a facial reconstruction undertaken, the authorities would never have discovered that a cadaver alert in a refrigerator actually did pertain to a dead child, about whom they had no prior knowledge.
So Amaral.misunderstood the evidence
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2017, 08:45:24 AM
Does it really matter? he is long gone from the investigation, he successfully defended his right in the courts to write his theory.His theory is no more or less ridiculous that the one where SY officers seriously try to have us believe that there was a burglary gone wrong,in the process Madeleine was half inched out of the apartment leaving not a trace,then these 4 amigos waited patiently around Luz until some one caught on.Laudable in the extreme.Still I'd venture a guess that it will be all over soon,Cressida Dick the other day that other inquiries were being shelved to focus on terrorism, a crime on a foreign soil commited some 10 yrs ago can't be a priority some how.
There are certain words which can trigger certain responses. 'Amaral' is one of those words. He's relevant to the thread only because he mentions something being written about the checking of the children. His account differs from Kate's as he places the writing on Tuesday 1st.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2017, 08:57:41 AM
There are certain words which can trigger certain responses. 'Amaral' is one of those words. He's relevant to the thread only because he mentions something being written about the checking of the children. His account differs from Kate's as he places the writing on Tuesday 1st.
Amaral is relevant to every thread concerning Madeleine McCann's case.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 23, 2017, 09:01:02 AM
There are certain words which can trigger certain responses. 'Amaral' is one of those words. He's relevant to the thread only because he mentions something being written about the checking of the children. His account differs from Kate's as he places the writing on Tuesday 1st.
Did you explain why you think "he places the writing on Tuesday 1st"?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2017, 09:10:39 AM
Madeleine's disappearance has nothing to do with Amaral.
Don't you say it is still unsolved, so it is not possible to say who is involved at this stage. OK it would seem to be very unlikely that Amaral was involved.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2017, 10:19:10 AM
I think you've got the point I'm trying to make. As there are several possible explanations anyone accusing him of lying needs to add a caveat. Otherwise they are posting their opinion as a fact.
I think you have got the message... or doesnt really understand the evidence...both options put him in a poor light. I cant see any others ...can you..
so you criticise posters for sating opinion as fact but seem to think its acceptable for amaral...it isnt
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2017, 01:20:28 PM
I think you have got the message...he is either lying or doesnt really understand the evidence...both options put him in a poor light. I cant see any others ...can you..
Not only that... I dont think either you or stephen are aware of what he says in the documentary that was the subject of the court case. Amaral is continually posting his opinion as fact...it isnt
so you criticise posters for sating opinion as fact but seem to think its acceptable for amaral...it isnt
I'm encouraged to see that you have also accepted that calling him a liar isn't the only option. I have no objection to his thesis being debated and criticised, that's why the forum exists. The forum has rules, though, which Amaral isn't bound by because he doesn't post here AFAIK.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 23, 2017, 02:21:28 PM
I'm encouraged to see that you have also accepted that calling him a liar isn't the only option. I have no objection to his thesis being debated and criticised, that's why the forum exists. The forum has rules, though, which Amaral isn't bound by because he doesn't post here AFAIK.
The forum rules, are supposed to be there because it is unfair to post opinion as, fact Especially when you, are accusing two people of serious criminal acts So what, amaral is doing is unfair and wrong... And not just imo
He must be, aware of the statements of Harrison and grime are the dogs but he chooses to ignore them
If I can't tell the truth it isn't worth posting
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2017, 02:38:51 PM
Posters are reminded yet again, not to refer to others as liars, as per John's instructions.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 23, 2017, 02:39:04 PM
The forum rules, are supposed to be there because it is unfair to post opinion as, fact Especially when you, are accusing two people of serious criminal acts So what, amaral is doing is unfair and wrong... And not just imo
He must be, aware of the statements of Harrison and grime are the dogs but he chooses to ignore them
If I can't tell the truth it isn't worth posting
Seemingly only from a moral standpoint and not a legal standpoint ?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
The forum rules, are supposed to be there because it is unfair to post opinion as, fact Especially when you, are accusing two people of serious criminal acts So what, amaral is doing is unfair and wrong... And not just imo
He must be, aware of the statements of Harrison and grime are the dogs but he chooses to ignore them
If I can't tell the truth it isn't worth posting
You need to understand the difference between what you can say on this forum and what Amaral can say elsewhere.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 23, 2017, 03:54:47 PM
I think you have got the message... or doesnt really understand the evidence...both options put him in a poor light. I cant see any others ...can you..
so you criticise posters for sating opinion as fact but seem to think its acceptable for amaral...it isnt
The 3rd option is that much of the material in the online files has either been distorted or fabricated, thus leading us, as posters, to the wrong conclusions.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 23, 2017, 04:07:56 PM
There was a room allocated in Block 6 to the PJ for a period of time after Madeleine's disappearance. Is anybody able to suggest why Mrs Fenn didn't just pop over to a room which was a stone's throw from her own apartment & tell the PJ about the crying & burglary incidents?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2017, 04:50:03 PM
The 3rd option is that much of the material in the online files has either been distorted or fabricated, thus leading us, as posters, to the wrong conclusions.
Is Duarte Levy a trustworthy source ... there is at least one individual I know of who hasn't any doubt that he may be less than trustworthy.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2017, 09:41:39 PM
Please note, replacing deleted material is against forum rules.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: John on June 23, 2017, 09:46:04 PM
There was a room allocated in Block 6 to the PJ for a period of time after Madeleine's disappearance. Is anybody able to suggest why Mrs Fenn didn't just pop over to a room which was a stone's throw from her own apartment & tell the PJ about the crying & burglary incidents?
Probably for the same reason Jenny Murat set up an information gathering desk.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: misty on June 23, 2017, 09:51:30 PM
Blue bit: You don't even cover the content of your own earlier post. Red bit: I make of it no more or less than what it is at face value.
How about this one, Alice - does it cover all bases?
"Do you think it was a mistake to have the McCann couple constituted as arguidos in September 2007?
Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects. That statement remains: the parents are not suspects. Period."
Pedro do Carmo, Deputy Director of PJ in Expresso, May 2, 2017
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 23, 2017, 11:08:26 PM
How about this one, Alice - does it cover all bases?
"Do you think it was a mistake to have the McCann couple constituted as arguidos in September 2007?
Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects. That statement remains: the parents are not suspects. Period."
Pedro do Carmo, Deputy Director of PJ in Expresso, May 2, 2017
I don't know. I have no idea how many bases there are to cover. How ever many there are I doubt we on'ere are fully cognisant of them all. I take Pedro do Carmo and DCI Redwoods statements at face value unless and until information which may demonstrate the statement no longer remains reliable, becomes available.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2017, 11:34:42 PM
I don't know. I have no idea how many bases there are to cover. How ever many there are I doubt we on'ere are fully cognisant of them all. I take Pedro do Carmo and DCI Redwoods statements at face value unless and until information which may demonstrate the statement no longer remains reliable, becomes available.
And Goncalo Amarals statements, do you take them at face value, even now that his latest video demonstrates that he doesn't understand the dog alerts? ... or other discrepencies?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 24, 2017, 06:51:01 AM
And Goncalo Amarals statements, do you take them at face value, even now that his latest video demonstrates that he doesn't understand the dog alerts? ... or other discrepencies?
I would take them at face value until they were proven to be incorrect by an independent expert on the topic tried and tested in a court of law. So far in this case nothing has been tested except the hooha about Sr Amarals book, which was only a side show anyway. How else would you propose to do it?
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 24, 2017, 12:53:08 PM
I would take them at face value until they were proven to be incorrect by an independent expert on the topic tried and tested in a court of law. So far in this case nothing has been tested except the hooha about Sr Amarals book, which was only a side show anyway. How else would you propose to do it?
Well, I am sorry, but I cant take his video on face value when so much that he spouts has been proven totally wrong.
He has lost any credibility that he had with his latest video. .... and he didn't have that much to start with ! IMO
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 24, 2017, 06:53:17 PM
Proven by whom, where and under what circumstances ?
Loads of Amarals mis/disinformation has been proven in the last month since the thread "CMTV Goncalo amaral - O Enigma - with British subtitles" was presented on this forum (on May 25th, 2017). Other posters will, I feel sure, confirm that.
Whether the proof still stands or has been wiped is another question. But if you didn't bother to read it before I suggest that you go back, find it and then read it..... if it is still there
Try and absorb what it says. Unlike some, I think you have the intellect if you apply yourself.
Anybody who has been reading this forum will certainly know how Amaral "got it" completely wrong. "IT" being a number of important things which you will find as you read what you normally should have read before
ETA: Thanks to a little help from Rob in NZ How to find the things that you would normally have read yourself, [as if you didn't !] You participated in the thread yourself, but somehow didn't read any of it ! %&5%£ 8)-)))
I think the thread you were talking about is http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.0 "Goncalo Amaral interviewed after the Appeal Court decision."
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 25, 2017, 05:34:52 AM
Loads of Amarals mis/disinformation has been proven in the last month since the thread "CMTV Goncalo amaral - O Enigma - with British subtitles" was presented on this forum (on May 25th, 2017). Other posters will, I feel sure, confirm that.
Whether the proof still stands or has been wiped is another question. But if you didn't bother to read it before I suggest that you go back, find it and then read it..... if it is still there
Try and absorb what it says. Unlike some, I think you have the intellect if you apply yourself.
Anybody who has been reading this forum will certainly know how Amaral "got it" completely wrong. "IT" being a number of important things which you will find as you read what you normally should have read before
I think the thread you were talking about is http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.0 "Goncalo Amaral interviewed after the Appeal Court decision."
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 25, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
I think the thread you were talking about is http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.0 "Goncalo Amaral interviewed after the Appeal Court decision."
8((()*/
Cheers Rob.
Enjoyed the match yesterday ~ The All Blacks were magnificent.
We did well, but NZ truly deserved to win 8@??)(
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 25, 2017, 07:39:12 PM
Enjoyed the match yesterday ~ The All Blacks were magnificent.
We did well, but NZ truly deserved to win 8@??)(
Now to win the America's Cup in sailing. That is the biggest interest here at the moment. Two more wins today. One away from the cup. But we had this once before when we couldn't get that last win.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 25, 2017, 09:55:03 PM
Now to win the America's Cup in sailing. That is the biggest interest here at the moment. Two more wins today. One away from the cup. But we had this once before when we couldn't get that last win.
You won the cricket too. Well done NZ
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 26, 2017, 12:25:23 AM
Did we win the cricket too. Was that the New Zealand woman's team That was yesterday.
Mens team
Yep, I think so, in the last two balls. Hit it for six. Exciting stuff. I only caught a bit of it, but the opponents were wearing yellow and green ... so would they be Australia?
stephen is the cricket expert on here. Bet he would know.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 27, 2017, 01:01:17 AM
Yep, I think so, in the last two balls. Hit it for six. Exciting stuff. I only caught a bit of it, but the opponents were wearing yellow and green ... so would they be Australia?
stephen is the cricket expert on here. Bet he would know.
was it "When: New Zealand vs Sri Lanka, June 24, 2017 at 10.30am local time
Where: County Ground, Bristol" NZ womens cricket team won the other day.
Title: Re: Was it Tuesday or Wednesday night?
Post by: sadie on June 27, 2017, 08:22:33 AM
was it "When: New Zealand vs Sri Lanka, June 24, 2017 at 10.30am local time
Where: County Ground, Bristol" NZ womens cricket team won the other day.
The little I saw showed that it was a very exciting match, with lots of really big hits and few balls left to be bowled.
Maybe I was watching a recording of a really good exciting period at the end of a match played several days before? dunno. If that is the case it could have been played at any time. Sorry if I have got it wrong Rob