UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on October 19, 2017, 05:49:35 PM
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Blimey I could've sworn I started up a thread/posts that appear to have disappeared &%+((£ Anyway not to worry at least it kept me amused for a while.
Having had a quick look at other mass shootings in residential properties: 65 Every St (Bains) and 112 Ocean Ave (DeFeos) it seems there might be some evidence that the sound of gunshot is reduced:
- On the assumption David Bain is innocent, as per his last trial, his father shot to death 4 victims whilst they were in their beds/rooms. The bedrooms were spread over 2 floors. 2 victims sustained 1 gsw, 1 victim 2 gsw's and another victim 3 gsw's. The youngest victim was 14 yoa. .22 used with silencer.
- In the DeFeo case, Ronald DeFeo Jnr., shot to death 6 victims whilst they were in their beds. The bedrooms were spread over 3 floors. The parents sustained 2 gsw's each and each sibling 1 gsw each. The youngest victim was 9 yoa. The neighbours said they didn't hear any noise other than dogs barking. .35 used no silencer.
- In the case of Oscar Pistorius the evidence re the sound of gunshot sounds ambigious where you might think the sounds of gunshot ringing out would be clear cut:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10943659/Oscar-Pistorius-10-reasons-why-he-is-guilty-or-innocent.html
9mm pistol, no silencer.
I think where firearms are discharged in enclosed spaces it might alter (reduce) the sound based on the ambient temp being higher, bullet stopping shortly after discharge and the following:
es/Lectures/FUTA-ARC-507/Assignments/2007 Assignments/Term Papers/Behaviour of Sound in an Enclosed Space.pdf
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Are you putting forward an argument s to hy no shots were heard from outside the farmhouse?
In your above examples, the murders occurred when neighbours were likely to be asleep (early hours and late at night). No one was expecting to hear gunshots whereas in the Bamber case, the raid team and other officers were honed for such a scenario, so had gunshots been fired, they would have heard them.
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Are you putting forward an argument s to hy no shots were heard from outside the farmhouse?
In your above examples, the murders occurred when neighbours were likely to be asleep (early hours and late at night). No one was expecting to hear gunshots whereas in the Bamber case, the raid team and other officers were honed for such a scenario, so had gunshots been fired, they would have heard them.
Not putting forward any arguments at the moment just thinking out loud! But was thinking more along the lines that if the sound of gunshot is altered (reduced) when discharged in a confined space it might explain why victims were not alerted and able to take some action to defend themselves. What I mean by this is that in the Bain and DeFeo cases the perps were able to move from floor to floor and room to room discharging the firearm without seemingly alerting others. You may recall from your psychology course covering sleep that there are deep sleep phases which are difficult to rouse from but it would seem strange if all occupants were in these deep sleep phases simultaneously? In fact in the DeFeo case the pathologist said the mother and a daughter were awake albeit prone in bed.
WHF firearm discharged 26 times/5 victims - no one in neighbouring farm cottages heard any gunshots.
ES firearm discharged 8 times/5 victims - afaik no one heard anything
Amytville firearm discharged 8 times/6 victims - no one heard gunshots only dogs barking
Pistorius firearm discharged 4? times/1 victim - ambigious as to whether others heard gunshot or door being broken down but neighbours heard arguing.
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Also I've always thought the twins were shot in quick succession simultaneously after NB and June were shot and killed but I know some struggle to understand how the twins could sleep through not only the noise from outside their bedroom but also the noise from within their bedroom. There must have been a delay of a few seconds from one twin being shot to the other. The soc's at ES and Amytville seem to show it would be possible.
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David do you know anything about this case eg where were the victims were shot/found?
http://www.lincolntrailpublishing.com/woman-shoots-dead-her-own-children-mother-and-brother-and-the-family-dog-233.html
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There is always the possibility he had help from someone outside the family. But who is going to believe him if he keeps giving alternative versions of events.
Nevertheless this crime is an example of someone good with firearms unlike WHF. This is how you would expect WHF to look if Jeremy/Mcdonald had been responsible.
Blimey we actually agree on something!
Do you know anything about the family in Austria? I'm just really wanting to know where they were shot how many gunshots etc.
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Blimey we actually agree on something!
Do you know anything about the family in Austria? I'm just really wanting to know where they were shot how many gunshots etc.
Actually I assume you meant JB OR MM?
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Anyway we can see in the thread the soc at WHF looked very different compared with Every Street (Bains) and Ocean Ave (DeFeos).
As it CURRENTLY stands the OFFICIAL perps based on most recent court rulings are as follows:
WHF - JB - 26 gunshots - 5 victims
Every Street - RB - 8 gunshots - 5 victims
Ocean Ave - RD Jnr - 8 gunshots - 6 victims
All were deemed competent with firearms. JB was a marksman at Greshams. I do not believe JB would shoot NB four times upstairs: 2 x face, 1 x shoulder and 1 x elbow/chest graze leaving NB still able to flee downstairs. The facial shots were "within inches".
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Two counter arguments are that JB needed to make the soc look amateurish and manic but at the same time made the mistake of over estimating the low powered rifle thus he required reloads which some argue was beyond SC. These two arguments obviously conflict. In any event we can see from Every St and Ocean Ave that JB could easily have killed the victims with 1 bullet and still have 6 spare if by chance a victim required a second and/or fire randomly to make the scene look amateurish and manic.
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The matriarchs were all prone in bed when shot initially:
WHF - June - 8 gsw's - 6 whilst in bed/getting out of. 2 whilst away from bed.
Every St - Magaret Bain - 1 gsw.
Ocean Ave - Louise DeFeo - 2gsw's - both whilst in bed.
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Two counter arguments are that JB needed to make the soc look amateurish and manic but at the same time made the mistake of over estimating the low powered rifle thus he required reloads which some argue was beyond SC. These two arguments obviously conflict. In any event we can see from Every St and Ocean Ave that JB could easily have killed the victims with 1 bullet and still have 6 spare if by chance a victim required a second and/or fire randomly to make the scene look amateurish and manic.
The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.
How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?
June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!
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There is always the possibility he had help from someone outside the family. But who is going to believe him if he keeps giving alternative versions of events.
Nevertheless this crime is an example of someone good with firearms unlike WHF. This is how you would expect WHF to look if Jeremy/Mcdonald had been responsible.
If Jeremy had wanted it to look like an execution, that;s how it may have looked but given that he wanted it to look like his 'crazy sister' was responsible - that's how he played it.
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The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.
How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?
"Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun".
June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!
I agree but a number of conflicting arguments exist from official and unofficial sources. From the CoA summing up the prosecution case at trial:
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
Do you have any info on the case in Austria where a woman shot her family ie number of shots fired etc?
WHF: 26/5 = 5.20 shots per victim
ES: 8/5 = 1.60 shots per victim
OA: 8/6 = 1.33 shots per victim
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AE told police officers SC would not have been capable of loading the mag.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3092
Having loaded the mag myself I think someone would have to suffer severe learning disabilities to find it in any way difficult. Far, far easier than erecting and collapsing a baby buggy and SC must have had to cope with a twin version.
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AE told police officers SC would not have been capable of loading the mag.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3092
Having loaded the mag myself I think someone would have to suffer severe learning disabilities to find it in any way difficult. Far, far easier than erecting and collapsing a baby buggy and SC must have had to cope with a twin version.
To what "mag" are you referring?
How could you have possibly loaded the " mag" involved in the original murders?
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The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.
How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?
June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!
Was 1985 still the dark ages?
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Was 1985 still the dark ages?
Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then.
He's not a bad lad. We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.
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Was 1985 still the dark ages?
Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then.
He's not a bad lad. We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.
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Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then.
He's not a bad lad. We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.
Rather you than me
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Rather you than me
It was a bit disconcerting when he kept reaching for my hand supposedly to see if it resembled you know what on what
8(0(*
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It was a bit disconcerting when he kept reaching for my hand supposedly to see if it resembled you know what on what
8(0(*
What?
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What?
Clue 1: abbreviated name of second month of calendar year.
Clue 2: a book I should have held dear had I not been such a NN!
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Blimey I could've sworn I started up a thread/posts that appear to have disappeared &%+((£ Anyway not to worry at least it kept me amused for a while.
Having had a quick look at other mass shootings in residential properties: 65 Every St (Bains) and 112 Ocean Ave (DeFeos) it seems there might be some evidence that the sound of gunshot is reduced:
- On the assumption David Bain is innocent, as per his last trial, his father shot to death 4 victims whilst they were in their beds/rooms. The bedrooms were spread over 2 floors. 2 victims sustained 1 gsw, 1 victim 2 gsw's and another victim 3 gsw's. The youngest victim was 14 yoa. .22 used with silencer.
- In the DeFeo case, Ronald DeFeo Jnr., shot to death 6 victims whilst they were in their beds. The bedrooms were spread over 3 floors. The parents sustained 2 gsw's each and each sibling 1 gsw each. The youngest victim was 9 yoa. The neighbours said they didn't hear any noise other than dogs barking. .35 used no silencer.
- In the case of Oscar Pistorius the evidence re the sound of gunshot sounds ambigious where you might think the sounds of gunshot ringing out would be clear cut:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10943659/Oscar-Pistorius-10-reasons-why-he-is-guilty-or-innocent.html
9mm pistol, no silencer.
I think where firearms are discharged in enclosed spaces it might alter (reduce) the sound based on the ambient temp being higher, bullet stopping shortly after discharge and the following:
es/Lectures/FUTA-ARC-507/Assignments/2007 Assignments/Term Papers/Behaviour of Sound in an Enclosed Space.pdf
If you are asking if the sound of the shot within that confined space is less than it would be in a more open space the answer is no. I have heard a round fired in normal room and if anything it seems louder.
What is does so is inhibits the loudness that can be heard from farther away. If a house and position is 1000 yards apart and someone stands directly in the middle on the 500 yard line they are going to hear the shot fired outdoors much better than the shot fired in the house. If oy uar ein another structure that is going to reduce the sound even more and make it all that much more difficult to recognize what the sound actually is. This is before even taking into account background noises.
With respect to sleep, some people wake up from loud noises like thunder others don't. Some wake up a little but fall back asleep without realizing what is going on others will fully wake up. You can wake up and yet fail to figure out what woke you up if the sound doesn't persist. So people woken by gunshots only appreciate it if the shots continue after they wake up.
When I was younger a gunpowder plant located 4 miles from my house blew up early in the morning or more accurately 4 buildings blew up. They didn't blow up simultaneously it was a chain reaction thus many people woke up and managed to hear 3, 2 or 1 blow up. It registered on the Richter scale and the houses shook so violently that some the chimneys broke or foundations were damaged and some windows blew out. Amazingly a large number of people never woke up at all. I'm a light sleeper and one of the few who woke up immediately and actually recall hearing the first blast even. I still can't believe how many people I know who didn't wake up at all and had no idea anything happened. The saying a bomb can't wake some is literally accurate.
You mentioned the Amityville Murder. Evidence indicated that both parents woke up and began to rise when they were shot. There is no way to know if they fully appreciated what was going on or not the shots were fired in rapid succession but there was enough time for them to at least begin to wake up and begin to react. The problem though is that people react too slowly to take advantage. A 22 is much less powerful than a 35 caliber and that plus the location of their wounds were much more severe thus they couldn't make it out of bed. Jeremy's shots were less well placed and he used a less powerful gun so Nevill was still mobile. June of course was able to get on her feet but out of it and too severely injured to survive for long.
The last victim in the Amityville case did actually wake up and get out of bed. But she didn't recognize what the noise was. She looked down the stairs saw her brother and he told her to go back to bed which she did and then after a period of time he went and shot her in bed as well.
People only partly awake also tend to be lazy and not want to get out of bed to investigate things so that plays in as well. There are plenty of cases where people were shot in rooms next to them and yet int he morning the people say they heard nothing. It sounds crazy but happens. It was thus just luck that the killer didn't go try to kill them too or rather the fact they didn't get up and thus were not a witness who needed to be eliminated actually saved their lives.
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Also I've always thought the twins were shot in quick succession simultaneously after NB and June were shot and killed but I know some struggle to understand how the twins could sleep through not only the noise from outside their bedroom but also the noise from within their bedroom. There must have been a delay of a few seconds from one twin being shot to the other. The soc's at ES and Amytville seem to show it would be possible.
A great deal depends on how soundly the victims are sleeping. It takes an average person more than just a second to get up and it is easy to fire a dozen rounds in rapid succession with modern weapons, the magazine size is the main limitation. Firing 3 shots into 1 twin an 2 seconds and then turning on the other before he could wake up is not a difficult task. he seemed to have learned his lesson after the debacle with his parents he aimed for the heads placing multiple rounds in.
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Polite reminder to all posters:
Please refrain from making any comments of a personal nature. The forum is for debate and it is natural and to be expected that we all perceive things differently and hold different views.
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Polite reminder to all posters:
Please endeavour to keep on topic.
Some posts in this thread relate exclusively to the DeFeo case. I will move them to a separate thread in the near future.
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Polite reminder to all posters:
Please endeavour to keep on topic.
Some posts in this thread relate exclusively to the DeFeo case. I will move them to a separate thread in the near future.
I have moved the posts which relate specifically to the Defeo case.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=894.msg27013#msg27013
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If you are asking if the sound of the shot within that confined space is less than it would be in a more open space the answer is no. I have heard a round fired in normal room and if anything it seems louder.
What is does so is inhibits the loudness that can be heard from farther away. If a house and position is 1000 yards apart and someone stands directly in the middle on the 500 yard line they are going to hear the shot fired outdoors much better than the shot fired in the house. If oy uar ein another structure that is going to reduce the sound even more and make it all that much more difficult to recognize what the sound actually is. This is before even taking into account background noises.
With respect to sleep, some people wake up from loud noises like thunder others don't. Some wake up a little but fall back asleep without realizing what is going on others will fully wake up. You can wake up and yet fail to figure out what woke you up if the sound doesn't persist. So people woken by gunshots only appreciate it if the shots continue after they wake up.
When I was younger a gunpowder plant located 4 miles from my house blew up early in the morning or more accurately 4 buildings blew up. They didn't blow up simultaneously it was a chain reaction thus many people woke up and managed to hear 3, 2 or 1 blow up. It registered on the Richter scale and the houses shook so violently that some the chimneys broke or foundations were damaged and some windows blew out. Amazingly a large number of people never woke up at all. I'm a light sleeper and one of the few who woke up immediately and actually recall hearing the first blast even. I still can't believe how many people I know who didn't wake up at all and had no idea anything happened. The saying a bomb can't wake some is literally accurate.
You mentioned the Amityville Murder. Evidence indicated that both parents woke up and began to rise when they were shot. There is no way to know if they fully appreciated what was going on or not the shots were fired in rapid succession but there was enough time for them to at least begin to wake up and begin to react. The problem though is that people react too slowly to take advantage. A 22 is much less powerful than a 35 caliber and that plus the location of their wounds were much more severe thus they couldn't make it out of bed. Jeremy's shots were less well placed and he used a less powerful gun so Nevill was still mobile. June of course was able to get on her feet but out of it and too severely injured to survive for long.
The last victim in the Amityville case did actually wake up and get out of bed. But she didn't recognize what the noise was. She looked down the stairs saw her brother and he told her to go back to bed which she did and then after a period of time he went and shot her in bed as well.
People only partly awake also tend to be lazy and not want to get out of bed to investigate things so that plays in as well. There are plenty of cases where people were shot in rooms next to them and yet int he morning the people say they heard nothing. It sounds crazy but happens. It was thus just luck that the killer didn't go try to kill them too or rather the fact they didn't get up and thus were not a witness who needed to be eliminated actually saved their lives.
I think the only reliable way to accurately gauge the sound of gunshot is a like for like demo measured by decibels.
In the WHF case jurors were taken to an open air gun range to hear the rifle fired with and without silencer. How can this replicate WHF?
I recall covering sleep on my psychology course and we do undergo periods difficult to wake from. I can't recall REM or RAM states but it's one of them.
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I have moved the posts which relate specifically to the Defeo case.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=894.msg27013#msg27013
Thank you.
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I think the only reliable way to accurately gauge the sound of gunshot is a like for like demo measured by decibels.
In the WHF case jurors were taken to an open air gun range to hear the rifle fired with and without silencer. How can this replicate WHF?
I recall covering sleep on my psychology course and we do undergo periods difficult to wake from. I can't recall REM or RAM states but it's one of them.
The exercise was in order to let them experience what the moderator does.
Sleep occurs generally in 5 stages, REM- light- deep- light- REM but it can vary. REM is when we dream out minds are active while are bodies are frozen.
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The exercise was in order to let them experience what the moderator does.
Sleep occurs generally in 5 stages, REM- light- deep- light- REM but it can vary. REM is when we dream out minds are active while are bodies are frozen.
But surely the sound of the rifle discharged with and without silencer will sound completely different when discharged indoors in a confined environment compared with outside at a shooting range?
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But surely the sound of the rifle discharged with and without silencer will sound completely different when discharged indoors in a confined environment compared with outside at a shooting range?
It depends on how close one is to the gun. The people further away are going to hear a difference. The sound is going to travel further if fired outdoors. In my experience the walls muffle some of the sound others in a different room would hear while amplifying the report inside the room it is fired in. It might just seem that way maybe it is the same but it seemed louder even to me.
The big difference is I was awake at the time it was fired not sleeping like the victims were. You can't underestimate the impact of such. Whether ax or gun attacks there are hundreds of years of examples of families being murdered in their sleep. Criminals do that because that is when people are most vulnerable and when you want to kill multiple people you especially want that edge. An ax attack is not as noisy as a gun but is still a noisy affair. Fortunately most burglars don't kill. There are a lot of examples of people waking up as burglars are tossing their room. They didn't hear the burglars enter the house or even their room they hear them messing up their room and wake up an see the person there in front of them. If those burglars wanted to kill them before searching the bedroom they easily could have. Of course some people wake up right away hearing a window break or the like and thus surprise the intruder it just depends on the people involved.
When people do end up waking up and escaping or shooting an attacker it is a matter of luck for them and misfortune for the criminal.
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I do find it surprising that supporters so passionately believe Sheila would have woken prior to it being her turn to be shot.
She was in another room, behind closed doors & walls. Asleep & under sedation. Bamber's shots with the silencer attached into the twins, June & Nevill would not be audible to her, even if awake.
The kitchen fight was louder but downstairs in a big house. It was very violent but would have been over witin minutes.
During the massacre pre Sheila, there would have been no loud shouts from Nevill, June & the twins. Nevill & June being shot 9 times before having a chance to react. The twins being killed in their sleep. Bamber certainly wouldn't be shouting.
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I do find it surprising that supporters so passionately believe Sheila would have woken prior to it being her turn to be shot.
She was in another room, behind closed doors & walls. Asleep & under sedation. Bamber's shots with the silencer attached into the twins, June & Nevill would not be audible to her, even if awake.
The kitchen fight was louder but downstairs in a big house. It was very violent but would have been over witin minutes.
During the massacre pre Sheila, there would have been no loud shouts from Nevill, June & the twins. Nevill & June being shot 9 times before having a chance to react. The twins being killed in their sleep. Bamber certainly wouldn't be shouting.
Well I find it quite remarkable that the soc's at Every St and Ocean Ave look quite different to WHF. IMO this is accounted for by the fact the perps at the aforementioned were proficient with firearms and the perp at WHF wasn't.
When I say different I refer specifically to ratio of GSW's per victim.
I would like to know more about the fairly recent case in Austria where a woman shot her mother, brother and 3 children before taking her own life but it seems the Austrian authorities have attempted to keep it under wraps.