UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on October 20, 2017, 07:02:21 PM
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Michigan teen pleads guilty to dad's murder after family pressure.
Published 28 April 2016
(http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_impact/photo/tucker-ciprianojpg-1e195a987f4f6f78.jpg)
The family of Tucker Cipriano did everything they could to get their son some help. But unfortunately his addiction would take a deadly turn.
From the outside, the Cipriano family lived a near-perfect life in a nearly perfect home in Farmington Hills, a wealthy community just outside of Detroit, Michigan.
Bob Cipriano, 52, was a beloved public school administrator. His wife Rose, 51, an avid swimmer and equally loved fitness instructor. By all accounts they are devoted parents who raised four sweet kids with strong values.
Theirs was a quaint, uneventful life until early on the morning of April 16, 2012, when evil rained down and completely shattered their near-perfect world.
Two intruders broke in and brutally beat Bob Cipriano with a baseball bat. Then they turn their rage on Rose. The Ciprianos' son Salvatore races in and is the next to fall.
Their little girl Isabella trembles with the horror playing out in front of her as her big brother Tanner hides in a closet and dials 911.
When police arrive, Rose and Salvatore are barely still alive. Tragically, Bob is bludgeoned so badly he drowned in a pool of his own blood.
Police say the motive for this heinous attack is robbery, and the assailants weren't planning to leave any witnesses behind.
The suspects? Every bit as shocking as the crime itself.
Within hours after the beatings, police arrest the Cipriano's oldest son, 19-year-old Tucker, and his friend, 20-year-old Mitchell Young.
In video arraignments, a tearful Mitchell Young and a calm, collected Tucker Cipriano both plead not guilty, each blaming the other for beating the Cipriano family.
Crime Watch Daily Detroit affiliate WXYZ reports Tucker is accused of killing his own father.
"Tucker attacks Mr. Cipriano with a baseball bat, and starts beating him with it. And Mr. Young says to Mr. Cipriano, 'What are you doing, what are you doing?'" said Assistant Prosecutor John Skrzynski.
But Tucker says it's the other way around, claiming Mitchell Young, who goes by his middle name, Roderick, is the one who savagely beat his parents.
"He stated he held him from behind and Roderick was hitting him in the head with a baseball bat," said Farmington Hills Detective Jason McDonald. "His words were 'a lot.'"
Tucker was adopted when he was just four days old and reportedly always struggled to fit in. He admits attacking his younger brother, Salvatore, but says he tried to get his 8-year-old sister out of harm's way.
"He was pleading with her to stay in her room because he didn't want anything bad happening to his sister," said McDonald. "She was stating, 'I thought you loved me. I thought you loved me.' And his response to that was he was telling her that he did love her, and to please stay in the room."
Tucker tells cops Isabella was literally saved by the bell.
"Roderick had his sister Isabella and the doorbell rang, she ran to the door, breaking away from Roderick, and it was the police, and at that point is when he said he ran out the back," said McDonald.
Both assailants reportedly copped to robbery, but neither one would confess to beating Tucker's parents.
"It was decided that Tucker was going to go after his two brothers and Roderick was going to go after the mom and the dad," said Tucker's friend Ian Zinderman.
Zinderman testified in exchange for immunity. He claims the whole attack was planned out after the three of them got high on "K2" synthetic marijuana. But Zinderman pulled out of the murderous plot.
"Roderick was supposed to go for the sister, from what I understand," said Zinderman.
"I did not go to the Cipriano household intending to hurt anyone," said Mitchell Young. "I didn't go there intending to hurt anyone, let alone to kill someone."
For weeks leading up to the trial, Bob Cipriano's brother Greg was desperate to keep the Cipriano family from having to relive their nightmare in court. He went to see Tucker in jail, hoping to convince him to man up, accept his fate, and plead guilty to first-degree murder.
"I don't see the point in doing life behind bars. I don't see living behind bars," Tucker said in a recorded phone call with Greg Cipriano.
"Well if you go through this trial, your family will be traumatized," said Greg Cipriano.
"I feel disrespectful saying this but I feel like fighting for the rest of my life is the only thing I have, the only option I have left to do," Tucker said. "Giving up is like hanging myself, Greg. That's what it feels like to me."
"Well, your dad paid for it with his life," Greg said. "And if you have any hope of redemption whatsoever of your soul you would do something about it."
"Don't come at me like that," said Tucker.
Tucker was defiant, insisting that he could never hurt his father. Then just days before the trial, Greg Cipriano tried again, this time bringing Tucker's brother Tanner along.
"The biggest moment of your life could be right now," Tanner told Tucker. "What is more meaningful to me is if you, that you could take responsibility for the first time in your life, just as dad always wanted you to."
His brother's pleas struck a chord.
"That opened my eyes and broke my heart," said Tucker. "I feel like the only way that I'll be able to express my love for the family enough, I'm taking responsibility, you know. I'm sorry for treating you the way I did, you know. I love you. Tanner, I love you so much."
"I love you too," said Tanner. "We all love you."
Just days later Tucker stood in open court and kept his word to his brother.
"So you're willing to accept the rest of your life in prison and take a plea?"
"Yes sir," said Tucker.
Through it all, Tucker graduated as valedictorian of his class. But his twin brother Salvatore is struggling to recover. He still can't speak, he only talks through text, and his mom says Salvatore is paralyzed on his left side.
"Salvatore was in a walker and he had a feeding tube," said Rose Cipriano. "He was drooling, he couldn't use his left arm very well, and his left leg."
Tucker Cipriano pleaded no contest to first-degree murder.
Prior to being led away he read an emotional farewell to his parents:
"Dad, a lot of people miss you down here. I love you and I hope, for what it's worth, I did what you would've wanted me to do. Mom, you remember when the teachers had to detach us, from you, to be able to leave on my first day of first grade, but wouldn't let you go? Well mom, I wish I would've never let go."
https://crimewatchdaily.com/2016/04/28/michigan-teen-pleads-guilty-to-dads-murder-after-family-pressure/
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John I'm not really sure what the argument is here?
Adoptees are surely representative of the population at large? A minority of adult adoptees murder members of their adoptive family in the same way that non adoptees murder members of their birth family?
Here are two cases where adopted daughters murdered or attempted to murder members of their adoptive family:
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/ahmedabad/vadodara-adopted-daughter-kills-parents-for-lover-bodies-decompse-for-two-months/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3512612/Girl-sentenced-10-20-years-plot-kill-family-members.html
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John I'm not really sure what the argument is here?
Adoptees are surely representative of the population at large? A minority of adult adoptees murder members of their adoptive family in the same way that non adoptees murder members of their birth family?
Here are two cases where adopted daughters murdered or attempted to murder members of their adoptive family:
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/ahmedabad/vadodara-adopted-daughter-kills-parents-for-lover-bodies-decompse-for-two-months/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3512612/Girl-sentenced-10-20-years-plot-kill-family-members.html
"The general public tends to view murderers as absolutely evil persons or people so damaged they can't possibly live among us. But most killers are untreated traumatized children who are controlling the actions of the scary adults they have become. Trauma is fundamental, but often the general public doesn't see that part of it. They see the result of trauma rather than a murder's origins in trauma. Most of what's been done in the past in these cases is either what's called a social history, which is a biographical compendium, or clinical assessment and diagnosis. But what I do is developmental analysis. Often, the social history has a lot of facts in it, but the facts are not connected conceptually. They can say, "This kid's mother abandoned him," but don't go the next step about why maternal abandonment is so devastating. Or they'll talk about how someone was engaging in impulsive behavior as a teenager, but not why teenage brains are so vulnerable.http://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/02/killers.aspx
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John I'm not really sure what the argument is here?
Adoptees are surely representative of the population at large? A minority of adult adoptees murder members of their adoptive family in the same way that non adoptees murder members of their birth family?
Here are two cases where adopted daughters murdered or attempted to murder members of their adoptive family:
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/ahmedabad/vadodara-adopted-daughter-kills-parents-for-lover-bodies-decompse-for-two-months/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3512612/Girl-sentenced-10-20-years-plot-kill-family-members.html
I came across this case by accident after trawling Cipriano. I thought it was yet another good example of a damaged orphaned child biting the hand that fed him.
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Why does Jeremy Bamber AVOID talking about his adoption and indeed his time spent at boarding school and the effect both these traumatic events had on him
Simon Hall was deeply effected by his adoption but didn't show it until he was "caught in the lie;" the Zenith burglary omission
It then became apparent it was all about appearances, not just from his point of view but from the point of view of some of his family members also.
They all attemptied to pretend everything was tickecty boo, they were just a normal family - it turned out they were anything but normal
Simon Hall appeared to have murdered out of unresolved anger. He said his victim represented his adoptive mother
Jeremy Bamber pretends to his supporters that he's a good all round guy. They are fooled by his charm, his calculated and cunning nature, just as I once was by Hall
We are all shaped by our past experiences but somehow Bamber supporters gloss over his and sweep them under the carpet
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Why does Jeremy Bamber AVOID talking about his adoption and indeed his time spent at boarding school and the effect both these traumatic events had on him
Simon Hall was deeply effected by his adoption but didn't show it until he was "caught in the lie;" the Zenith burglary omission
It then became apparent it was all about appearances, not just from his point of view but from the point of view of some of his family members also.
They all attempting to pretend everything was tickecty boo, they were just a normal family - it turned out they were anything but normal
Simon Hall appeared to have murdered out of unresolved anger. He said his victim represented his mother
Jeremy Bamber pretends to his supporters that he's a good all round guy. They are fooled by his charm, his calculated and cunning nature, just as I once was by Hall
We are all shaped by our past experiences but somehow Bamber supporters gloss over his and sweep them under the carpet
Yet so many of them never learn? Are they infatuated, lovestruck or just sad?
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Yet so many of them never learn? Are they infatuated, lovestruck or just sad?
But there is a reason they never learn John and it's not helped by the fact the hard core Bamber supporters, including those close to him (His "friends" the campaign team etc), cannot see they are being controlled, and not just by Jeremy Bamber
I would suggest many of Bambers supporters have unresolved issues of their own, as I came to learn as did I
Simon Hall fed off my vulnerabilities as Jeremy Bamber is doing to his victims
Untill each and every one of Bambers victims recognise this in themselves they will continue to go round in circles
Though I fully recognise there are also some individuals who are choosing to allow things to go round in circles due to their personal motives and agendas; whether they just get a kick out, they are motivated by monetary gain, or because they cannot bare the thought of having to accept their lifes work was all for nothing, only they can answer that, but ultimately it suggests they have unresolved issues of their own
From my own experience of the blue forum, for example, emotional blackmail appears to be the weapon of choice for some
"Emotional blackmail and FOG, terms coined by psychotherapist Susan Forward, are about controlling people in relationships and the theory that fear, obligation and guilt ("FOG") are the transactional dynamics at play between the controller and the person being controlled.
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Yet so many of them never learn? Are they infatuated, lovestruck or just sad?
John can I ask please how you would define a JB 'supporter'? Do you see me as a 'supporter'? And if so which category would you place me in:
- Infatuated?
- Lovestruck?
- Or just sad?
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John can I ask please how you would define a JB 'supporter'? Do you see me as a 'supporter'? And if so which category would you place me in:
- Infatuated?
- Lovestruck?
- Or just sad?
How would you define yourself Holly?
Why do you seek Johns opinion of yourself?
Are you looking for his approval or disapproval
And why do I always get the sense from you, you are sparring for a fight/argument
Could you be sad; as in, unhappy, Holly?
At the end of the day your motivations are personal to you. Only you know why you have chosen to come out in support of Bamber (a convicted mass murderer) and spend time on the net fighting his cause.
Why have you chosen to fight for Jeremy Bamber, and not say, to fight for world peace or some other deserving cause
Why the Jeremy Bamber case?
Is your motivation anything to do with your adoption
"Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/9
Was it your search for answers to your own quest that brought you to the case
I don't expect you to answer btw; your reasoning will be personal to yourself
But why have you put a convicted mass murderer on a pedastal over and above his sister, who was suffering from mental health issues
Are you suggesting Jeremy was unscathed by his adoption
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I came across this case by accident after trawling Cipriano. I thought it was yet another good example of a damaged orphaned child biting the hand that fed him.
I don't know anything about the case but we know birth children also murder their birth parents so it can't just be down to "damaged orphans".
We also know some adoptees/orphans are by most people's standards very successful eg the late Steve Jobs so I don't think it is possible to generalise.
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I don't know anything about the case but we know birth children also murder their birth parents so it can't just be down to "damaged orphans".
What is often said to be the cause behind the reasoning of why birth children murder their birth parents
And why did you divert to Steven Jobs? He was never under suspicion of murder was he?
Could it be you who is generalising perhaps
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I don't know anything about the case but we know birth children also murder their birth parents so it can't just be down to "damaged orphans".
We also know some adoptees/orphans are by most people's standards very successful eg the late Steve Jobs so I don't think it is possible to generalise.
As an aside I do know that all the research/statistics shows that a child growing up in a non-biological family: adoptive, foster, step-parent is more likely to be murdered by his/her non-biological parents than a biological child growing up with his/her biological parents.
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As an aside I do know that all the research/statistics shows that a child growing up in a non-biological family: adoptive, foster, step-parent is more likely to be murdered by his/her non-biological parents than a biological child growing up with his/her biological parents.
You have veered again Holly
We know JB and NB didn't murder their children and we know it was either Jeremy or Sheila
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John can I ask please how you would define a JB 'supporter'? Do you see me as a 'supporter'? And if so which category would you place me in:
- Infatuated?
- Lovestruck?
- Or just sad?
Anyone can be duped Holly http://withoutempathy.blogspot.co.uk
"Dr. Martha Stout, in her book 'The Sociopath Next Door', discusses the techniques of the sociopath - what she refers to as 'the tools of the trade'. The first technique she talks about is charm. Dr. Stout believes it is "a primary characteristic of sociopathy. The intense charm of people who have no conscience, a kind of inexplicable charisma, has been observed and commented on by countless victims, and by researchers who attempt to catalog the diagnostic signs of sociopathy. It is a potent characteristic". Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak talk about the role of charm during the interview process in their latest book "Snakes in Suits - When Psychopaths Go To Work". According to the book, "one of the most effective skills psychopaths use to get the trust of people is their ability to charm them. Some psychopaths lay the charm on too thick, coming across as glib, superficial, and unconvincing. Hower, the truly talented ones have raised their ability to charm people to that of an art, priding themselves on their ability to present a fictional self to others that is convincing, taken at face value, and difficult to penetrate". One must always keep in mind that the charm, like manipulation, can be very subtle.
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Adoption aside -
A friend told me about this video sometime before Hall confessed, its an eye opener and worth watching
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0k7wBzXPY
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Yet so many of them never learn? Are they infatuated, lovestruck or just sad?
Denial also plays a large role
I was in denial after learning of the Zenith burglary omission to the point of confession
I recall when Simon Hall overdosed at the end of February 2013 (I posted about it on blue at the time)
However what I didn't ever post about was my denial of witnessing and recognising my own fears of his possible violent nature
He was in hospital for 4 days and only on the last day did he have a prison escort
He was accused or physically assaulting a female hospital security officer which led to the prison being called in to assist (remember also he was under MAPPA https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/multi-agency-public-protection-arrangements-mappa--2)
I excused this as being down to his O/D
I made all kinds of excuses for him in my mind and indeed publicly but his brother Shaun and a few others pointed out the error of my ways not long after on the blue forum
The truth was, after he assaulted me in the hospital also, I was terrified of him and went back into denial after listening to his excuses
So terrified of him I remember telling the women in the village (during a phone call I made to her from the hospital car park) the same women who had told me of the burglary omission, that I suspected he was extremely dangerous and did she think I was in denial and that he was guilty after all
She was once a member of this forum, not sure if she still, nor do I care, but I know she had a lot to say about the case at one time and indeed the confession
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John can I ask please how you would define a JB 'supporter'? Do you see me as a 'supporter'? And if so which category would you place me in:
- Infatuated?
- Lovestruck?
- Or just sad?
Sorry Holly, I wasn't aiming that comment at anyone in particular, I certainly had to intention to offend, my apologies if it sounded that way.
As to your question, I don't know you well enough to be qualified to answer. I know you genuinely appear to believe Jeremy to be innocent. I too once upon a time believed him to be wrongfully convicted because I couldn't bring myself to accept that he could have done such a dreadful deed. Once I delved deeper though I came to understand his methods and motives.
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I made all kinds of excuses for him in my mind and indeed publicly but his brother Shaun and a few others pointed out the error of my ways not long after on the blue forum
The truth was, after he assaulted me in the hospital also, I was terrified of him and went back into denial after listening to his excuses
So terrified of him I remember telling the women in the village (during a phone call I made to her from the hospital car park) the same women who had told me of the burglary omission, that I suspected he was extremely dangerous and did she think I was in denial and that he was guilty after all
She was once a member of this forum, not sure if she still, nor do I care, but I know she had a lot to say about the case at one time and indeed the confession
I know who you mean and they were convinced that Simon was innocent. Even after he confessed I don't think they could accept that they could be so badly misled. It is really sad.
Without wanting to divert too much Stephanie, one thing I have never understood is why did Simon choose to come clean when he was on the verge of release? He was latterly in an open prison and could smell freedom. Do you think his conscience was his undoing?
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I know who you mean and they were convinced that Simon was innocent. Even after he confessed I don't think they could accept that they could be so badly misled. It is really sad.
Roy Lamberts friend and colleague, and one of the officers involved in the original murder investigation, said to me; from the point at which Simon murdered, anyone who then came into contact with him was a victim. He was right.
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Without wanting to divert too much Stephanie, one thing I have never understood is why did Simon choose to come clean when he was on the verge of release? He was latterly in an open prison and could smell freedom. Do you think his conscience was his undoing?
Did he have a conscience John
I don't think we'll ever know all the answers
Unless of course, those that knew him (adopted him, grew up with him) and were close to him back then ever decide to put pay to Simon's allegations of childhood abuse and speak out about their apparent knowledge of the Zenith break in
Was his suicide his coup de grace or his way of remaining in control till the end or both - I've no idea
Was his urge to harm others in his genes or brought about from his environment "growing up in that house" as he wrote before ending his life
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What I do know however is that Jeremy Bamber is a classic psychopath who craves attention, be it good or bad, and is where he should be
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Yet so many of them never learn? Are they infatuated, lovestruck or just sad?
I do have a question mark in relation to one women involved with Simon Hall, even visiting him just days before he was found hanging in his cell.
I've recently come across some cards and letters she wrote to him and the contents of said items are bizarre (though there are other women and indeed men not dissimilar). Whether or not she fits in to one of the categories to which you refer, who knows. I hope she's managed to move on because she most definitely appeared infatuated to me.
Her writings appeared delusional. Remind you of anyone &%+((£
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Sorry Holly, I wasn't aiming that comment at anyone in particular, I certainly had to intention to offend, my apologies if it sounded that way.
As to your question, I don't know you well enough to be qualified to answer. I know you genuinely appear to believe Jeremy to be innocent. I too once upon a time believed him to be wrongfully convicted because I couldn't bring myself to accept that he could have done such a dreadful deed. Once I delved deeper though I came to understand his methods and motives.
Awww that's ok no offence taken.
Well I did offer to buy you lunch if you were willing to take part in my video demo at the gun shop.
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This guy was 14 when he murdered his adoptive parents and adopted brother
"Collier told 20/20 about his adoption: 'I honestly had abandonment issues my entire life. I never felt like I was part of anything. I was reminded that I was adopted a lot. I was told that my mother was a whore. You know, she's a horrible person, trailer trash, and blah blah blah'.
On the back porch of the house, police found the father, Hans Zimmer, shot five times. The mother, Sally Zimmer, had been stabbed to death and carried into a shed behind the house with a rosary placed on her body.l
But records show that although Peter refused psychiatric help - he did decide to get rich. While serving time for his family's murders - he declared his plan to claim his family's estate as the sole surviving heir.
The law fell in his favour and in 1987 he walked out of the school tasked with reforming juvenile offenders as a free man with a clean record, a trust fund and a new name - Jovan Collier.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329137/Boy-killed-3-family-members-jailed-25-years-later-obsessive-stalking.html#ixzz4wQ2kDrZk
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"There are some tragic cases of parents turning on and even abusing their adopted children. Of course, most adoptive parents are caring and deeply love their children, and thanks to a rigorous screening process cases of abuse are rare. Still, tales of neglect and even instances where children are “returned” to the adoption agencies persist.
The relationship between parent and child is always fraught with difficulty, and adoption adds another layer to an already tricky dynamic. Some very young people from seemingly perfectly stable and conventional backgrounds have inexplicably become murderers – often targeting their own families. And, in some very rare and unusual cases, adopted children have been known to turn on their family and cause them harm; sometimes even killing them.
The following are seven such instances, when adopted children turned on their family. Was it the fault of the child, or the parents, or just cruel fate? Did similar circumstances lead to these tragedies, or are they all simply distinct, tragic flukes?
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/7-terrifying-cases-of-adopted-kids-turning-on-families/
"Lawrence J. Swartz killed both of his adoptive parents in 1984. He was seventeen years old.
The killings were so gruesome and so highly publicised that they became the inspiration for a book and movie. People became fascinated with the story. The murders may have been due to abuse experienced by Swartz prior to his adoption – he had spent years moving between foster homes – as well as to the strict nature of his new parents.
The couple was reportedly very religious and set many rules, which may have pushed Swartz over the edge. Swartz killed them both with a wood-splitting axe and steak knife. He served just 9 years in prison for his crimes.
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"It Happened To Me: My Parents Adopted a Murderer
https://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/larry-swartz-murderer-adopted
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Man who killed 5 in family faces execution
"Money was the apparent impetus. Aided by friend and roommate Jared Althaus, Coulson methodically planned his assault -- how he would arrive in the afternoon, before sister Robin and her husband had arrived, and disable them one by one with a stun gun. He would also take a pistol and a crowbar just in case. Once everyone was immobilized and gagged with duct tape, he would set fire to the place, hoping to make it look like a terrible accident. Just like that, he would be left as the sole surviving heir.
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Man-who-killed-5-in-family-faces-execution-2073269.php
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-41892994
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Man who killed 5 in family faces execution
"Money was the apparent impetus. Aided by friend and roommate Jared Althaus, Coulson methodically planned his assault -- how he would arrive in the afternoon, before sister Robin and her husband had arrived, and disable them one by one with a stun gun. He would also take a pistol and a crowbar just in case. Once everyone was immobilized and gagged with duct tape, he would set fire to the place, hoping to make it look like a terrible accident. Just like that, he would be left as the sole surviving heir.
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Man-who-killed-5-in-family-faces-execution-2073269.php
He was being optimistic. Unless the victims were totally burned to ashes & there was no sign of duct tape.
How did he immobilise them so they could not escape the fire. Tie them up ? Again there would be evidence after the fire.
Stun guns must be powerful, if the killer had the confidence to disable 5 adults with it.
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Didn't the Menendez brothers simply shoot their mother & father. Then ring the police ?
I suppose they could give each other alibis.