UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on January 27, 2018, 06:05:12 PM
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Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.
Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.
Why now?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
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Is it not far too late if it's just about what happened that night?
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Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.
Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.
Why now?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
I'm glad to see Sutton agrees, with me are the Portuguese I statements, and that's why I'm sure SY will have clarified, things with the mccannns... Sutton may well just be trying to raise his own profile to suggest it now
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Wouldn't it be against Portuguese law to make retrospective changes to signed witness statements?
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Wouldn't it be against Portuguese law to make retrospective changes to signed witness statements?
In a word no. I think Sutton is right though, there has to be more clarity in this case. And when they are about it they could also ask some individuals about their involvement with a certain Spanish detective agency. A noticeable failure to do so already indicates a lack of will to properly investigate all aspects of this case thoroughly.
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Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.
Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.
Why now?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Has this chap actually read the files?
The T7 were interviewed in English by British cops during their rogatory interviews, on behalf of the PJ, but LP took them through their recollections of events and were invited by the PJ to ask their own questions as they felt appropriate.
K & G haven't been formally reinterviewed, seemingly, which doesn't mean to say that there haven't been informal interviews, and possibly even further contact with T7 in the event of the need to check on anything.
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Has this chap actually read the files?
The T7 were interviewed in English by British cops during their rogatory interviews, on behalf of the PJ, but LP took them through their recollections of events and were invited by the PJ to ask their own questions as they felt appropriate.
K & G haven't been formally reinterviewed, seemingly, which doesn't mean to say that there haven't been informal interviews, and possibly even further contact with T7 in the event of the need to check on anything.
I think the operative words are 'formally interview'.
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I think the operative words are 'formally interview'.
So they may well have been interviewed as witnesses but not formally under caution.... I don't see any problem with that
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I can think of at least six people who should be interviewed in relation to events post Maddie disappearance but as there appears to be division within SY as to how to progress this investigation I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully the Portuguese and Spanish police will get to the bottom of it all.
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I can think of at least six people who should be interviewed in relation to events post Maddie disappearance but as there appears to be division within SY as to how to progress this investigation I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully the Portuguese and Spanish police will get to the bottom of it all.
what division is there in SY....I havent seen any...sutton isnt part of SY
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what division is there in SY....I havent seen any...sutton isnt part of SY
He wasn't part of SY, for a reason imo.
Speaking to Martin Brunt on Sky News, he said: 'I did receive a call from a very senior met police officer who knew me and said it wouldn’t be a good idea for me to head investigation on the basis that I wouldn’t be happy conducting an investigation being told where I could go and where I couldn’t go, the things I could investigate and the things I couldn’t.
Asked to clarify what he meant, he added: 'The Scotland Yard investigation was going to be very narrowly focused and that focus would be away from any suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of the McCanns or the tapas friends.'
The Tapas Nine refers to the McCann parents and the seven friends they were out to dinner with when Madeleine disappeared in 2007.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4467832/Met-interested-proving-McCann-parents-innocent.html#ixzz55Yy8Iosb
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Why would taking statements from all British witnesses again, be of any use? All the statements are there in the Police files. Unless he thinks some haven't been interviewed.
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Why would taking statements from all British witnesses again, be of any use? All the statements are there in the Police files. Unless he thinks some haven't been interviewed.
Aren't you supporters always banging on about how unreliable the statements in the files are ?
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Aren't you supporters always banging on about how unreliable the statements in the files are ?
No. This is simply a matter for discussion.
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No. This is simply a matter for discussion.
Really ?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9005.0
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Really ?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9005.0
"Always?" A bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it.
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"Always?" A bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it.
Nope. So do you believe there are no issues with the Portuguese translations?
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Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.
Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.
Why now?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Guessing by the date on the Sun article, it was around the time of the reports of the 'woman in purple'.
But Mr Sutton is right, though he probably does not know why.
There is a seeming disconnect between OG working from Belgravia and what Luz factors they should be asking about.
Q1 and Q2. Was Gerry really a follower of football? Did he follow it whilst in Luz? If so, how did he get his information? What channels were the McCanns able to get on the TV in 5A (see incident scene photos) and did the McCanns ever use that TV for anything? Was anyone in the T7 a follower of football? How did they keep up to date on football whilst in Luz?
Very similar questions could be put to other witnesses, notably Raj Balu and Neil Berry, Martin Smith and Peter Smith, but also to a wide range of others, including Fernando (Café/Bar Calhete), June and Paul Wright (Duke of Holland), plus a whole host of people not appearing in the PJ Files.
Q3. What was the menu at the Tapas Restaurant? Did it actually serve any tapas, or was it a starter-followed-by- mains menu?
Q4. Upon realising Madeleine was missing, Kate went to the children's window to look out. The shutter was raised and the window was open. That meant Kate could see and she could hear. What did Kate see? What did Kate hear? Even if the answer to both of these questions is nothing, it would add a great deal.
Q5. Gerry called Kate twice that night. From memory, a fairly long call around 11.14 pm, with a shorter one a little while later. Where was Gerry when when he made those calls and what were they about?
Not that it matters a great deal, other than curiosity, I would like to find out the route taken by the GNR first-response car when it entered Luz. Upon hitting the one way system, it should have taken a route to get to the OC 24 hr reception that took it immediately adjacent to 5A. Nobody mentions this. The route taken by the GNR, with Gerry aboard, from the OC reception to 5A would also tell me something.
So many unturned stones.
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Nope. So do you believe there are no issues with the Portuguese translations?
I have no idea. I don't speak or understand Portuguese.
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Aren't you supporters always banging on about how unreliable the statements in the files are ?
Scotland Yard have access to all the properly translated files ... and much, much more intelligence and information beside.
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Guessing by the date on the Sun article, it was around the time of the reports of the 'woman in purple'.
But Mr Sutton is right, though he probably does not know why.
There is a seeming disconnect between OG working from Belgravia and what Luz factors they should be asking about.
Q1 and Q2. Was Gerry really a follower of football? Did he follow it whilst in Luz? If so, how did he get his information? What channels were the McCanns able to get on the TV in 5A (see incident scene photos) and did the McCanns ever use that TV for anything? Was anyone in the T7 a follower of football? How did they keep up to date on football whilst in Luz?
Very similar questions could be put to other witnesses, notably Raj Balu and Neil Berry, Martin Smith and Peter Smith, but also to a wide range of others, including Fernando (Café/Bar Calhete), June and Paul Wright (Duke of Holland), plus a whole host of people not appearing in the PJ Files.
Q3. What was the menu at the Tapas Restaurant? Did it actually serve any tapas, or was it a starter-followed-by- mains menu?
Q4. Upon realising Madeleine was missing, Kate went to the children's window to look out. The shutter was raised and the window was open. That meant Kate could see and she could hear. What did Kate see? What did Kate hear? Even if the answer to both of these questions is nothing, it would add a great deal.
Q5. Gerry called Kate twice that night. From memory, a fairly long call around 11.14 pm, with a shorter one a little while later. Where was Gerry when when he made those calls and what were they about?
Not that it matters a great deal, other than curiosity, I would like to find out the route taken by the GNR first-response car when it entered Luz. Upon hitting the one way system, it should have taken a route to get to the OC 24 hr reception that took it immediately adjacent to 5A. Nobody mentions this. The route taken by the GNR, with Gerry aboard, from the OC reception to 5A would also tell me something.
So many unturned stones.
Q3 - "On the night of the events he ate fish at dinner, and sausages and potatoes as a starter, drinking white wine." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Q4 - Kate's statement doesn't say that she looked out the window into the car park looking for Madeleine.
Q1 - The McCann family are football mad so of course they follow football. They were out every night so were not watching full football matches on tv.
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Q4 - Kate's statement doesn't say that she looked out the window into the car park looking for Madeleine.
I believe this addition to her searching didn't appear until Oprah, same with checking the wardrobe.
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Scotland Yard have access to all the properly translated files ... and much, much more intelligence and information beside.
But if, as supporters claim, mistakes were made when taking down the witness statements surely it would be a good thing to requestion the group in order to clarify things ?
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-snip-
Q1 and Q2. Was Gerry really a follower of football? Did he follow it whilst in Luz? If so, how did he get his information? What channels were the McCanns able to get on the TV in 5A (see incident scene photos) and did the McCanns ever use that TV for anything? Was anyone in the T7 a follower of football? How did they keep up to date on football whilst in Luz? -snip-
I dont know how he does it but, being football mad, my hubby sometimes watches football on his computer. He prefers the TV big screen though
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But if, as supporters claim, mistakes were made when taking down the witness statements surely it would be a good thing to requestion the group in order to clarify things ?
Crecheman was interviewed by the police as a witness. No-one knew about him. No-one knew the date, time or location or any details until the police wanted them to know.
But he was interviewed.
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Crecheman was interviewed by the police as a witness. No-one knew about him. No-one knew the date, time or location or any details until the police wanted them to know.
But he was interviewed.
So you believe that the friends have been interviewed?
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So you believe that the friends have been interviewed?
I know witnesses have been interviewed ... as evidenced by crecheman and those who suffered assaults by an unknown intruder.
Who else might have been interviewed when Madeleine's case was reopened by Scotland Yard doesn't appear to have entered the public domain ... but I'm sure it will include many the investigators deemed could assist their objective of discovering what happened to Madeleine McCann.
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I know witnesses have been interviewed ... as evidenced by crecheman and those who suffered assaults by an unknown intruder.
Who else might have been interviewed when Madeleine's case was reopened by Scotland Yard doesn't appear to have entered the public domain ... but I'm sure it will include many the investigators deemed could assist their objective of discovering what happened to Madeleine McCann.
We can but hope.
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Q3 - "On the night of the events he ate fish at dinner, and sausages and potatoes as a starter, drinking white wine." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Q4 - Kate's statement doesn't say that she looked out the window into the car park looking for Madeleine.
Q1 - The McCann family are football mad so of course they follow football. They were out every night so were not watching full football matches on tv.
The typed timeline mentions the window;
Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
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The typed timeline mentions the window;
Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
I don't see any problem with the mccanns being informally interviewed in fact it may well be witnesses talk more, freely if not under, caution... Sutton is but one professional... He has his opinions others have theirs
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I don't see any problem with the mccanns being informally interviewed in fact it may well be witnesses talk more, freely if not under, caution... Sutton is but one professional... He has his opinions others have theirs
Sutton is an ex Met professional, so his expertise encompasses experience of how the Met works. If they haven't done something they would normally do he's clearly qualified to point that out.
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Sutton is an ex Met professional, so his expertise encompasses experience of how the Met works. If they haven't done something they would normally do he's clearly qualified to point that out.
If he is Ex Met then how would he know what they did?
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Sutton is an ex Met professional, so his expertise encompasses experience of how the Met works. If they haven't done something they would normally do he's clearly qualified to point that out.
As I said...Sutton is but one professional and as we know professionals have diferrent opinions....These cases are so few and far between and each one diferrent there is no normal...imo
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If he is Ex Met then how would he know what they did?
The Times understands the Met never interviewed Maddie's parents or the Tapas Seven as witnesses
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
I assume Sutton was asked to comment on the above. If the Met were reviewing a British cold case they would have had statements given to British policemen. In that case they might not feel the need to interview the witnesses again. As Sutton points out, however, the Met only have translated statements, so he would have expected them to interview people again, their way, in English.
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If he is Ex Met then how would he know what they did?
He could be big mates with some of the investigative team and friends in higher placesand get his information through them.
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He could be big mates with some of the investigative team and friends in higher placesand get his information through them.
or he could be annoyed that he was not offered the job
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or he could be annoyed that he was not offered the job
Do you think the McCanns and their friends have been questioned?
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Sutton is an ex Met professional, so his expertise encompasses experience of how the Met works. If they haven't done something they would normally do he's clearly qualified to point that out.
IMO he has also pointed out that the translated statements are likely to be innaccurate
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he has also pointed out that the translated statements are likely to be innaccurate
So best to clear things up then. Again Davel do you think the tapas group has been questioned?
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So best to clear things up then. Again Davel do you think the tapas group has been questioned?
yes
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So best to clear things up then. Again Davel do you think the tapas group has been questioned?
I see no reason for the group to have been questioned in relation to the abduction, given the remit. According to Redwood, this was a criminal act by a stranger.
Suspects get questioned. Witnesses interviewed.
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I see no reason for the group to have been questioned in relation to the abduction, given the remit. According to Redwood, this was a criminal act by a stranger.
Suspects get questioned. Witnesses interviewed.
But neither you nor Colin Sutton are in the position of really knowing what went on in Scotland Yard's re-opened investigation apart from what they have told us. Which isn't much.
So all either of you can do is speculate, isn't it.
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I see no reason for the group to have been questioned in relation to the abduction, given the remit. According to Redwood, this was a criminal act by a stranger.
Suspects get questioned. Witnesses interviewed.
Accepted.
It would appear on the forum you can post in oblique terms that Sutton is being dishonest but when the question is asked was he lying they appear to balk at the suggestion.
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But neither you nor Colin Sutton are in the position of really knowing what went on in Scotland Yard's re-opened investigation apart from what they have told us. Which isn't much.
So all either of you can do is speculate, isn't it.
Well indeed, all most of us can do on these boards is speculate.
I'm quite happy to believe that if the McCann's were ever questioned (not interviewed) again, they'd say no comment, based on Kate's previous form.
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I see no reason for the group to have been questioned in relation to the abduction, given the remit. According to Redwood, this was a criminal act by a stranger.
Suspects get questioned. Witnesses interviewed.
I think the mccans will have been asked questions...and therefore questioned
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But neither you nor Colin Sutton are in the position of really knowing what went on in Scotland Yard's re-opened investigation apart from what they have told us. Which isn't much.
So all either of you can do is speculate, isn't it.
Not true. I'm sure Sutton still has many contacts within the Met and will have a damn good idea what is going on. Do you really think that ex-colleagues don't chew the fat about cases they're working on ?
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I think tje mccans will ahve been asked questions...and therefore questioned
...asked questions as witnesses, not suspects. Because abduction & not suspects.
The McCann's were not suspects as soon as grange began iirc.**
*My mistake, I think Redwoods not suspects announcement was 2 years after grange began.
They must have cleared the ground beneath their feet, like Clarence was misled into believing had happened during the original investigation.
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Not true. I'm sure Sutton still has many contacts within the Met and will have a damn good idea what is going on. Do you really think that ex-colleagues don't chew the fat about cases they're working on ?
and his only criticism is taht the mccanns should have been formlerly interviewed......so SY must be doing quite well
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and his only criticism is taht the mccanns should have been formlerly interviewed......so SY must be doing quite well
Can you have a thorough investigation if the main protagonists haven't been interviewed and OG are relying on, according to supporters and Kate, unreliable witness statements?
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Can you have a thorough investigation if the main protagonists haven't been interviewed and OG are relying on, according to supporters and Kate, unreliable witness statements?
aS I have said I think the mccanns will have been questioned
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he has also pointed out that the translated statements are likely to be innaccurate
He actually said;
We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Rowley, however, said that they reviewed the Portuguese evidence and found it satisfactory;
Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with
http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743
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He actually said;
We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Rowley, however, said that they reviewed the Portuguese evidence and found it satisfactory;
Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the
original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was
all dealt with
http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743
So he actually said.... The room for error would be enormous ...yet in your opinion it is as fact they are totally accurate... I find your reasoning poor
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So he actually said.... The room for error would be enormous ...yet in your opinion it is as fact they are totally accurate... I find your reasoning poor
Thank you for giving me your OPINION on what I think and on my reasoning abilities.
Do you think Rowley was wrong then?
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So he actually said.... The room for error would be enormous ...yet in your opinion it is as fact they are totally accurate... I find your reasoning poor
I think the poor reasoning belongs to Rowley.
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Accepted.
It would appear on the forum you can post in oblique terms that Sutton is being dishonest but when the question is asked was he lying they appear to balk at the suggestion.
Innuendo is against the rules of the forum ... if you become aware of an example... please report it.
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Well indeed, all most of us can do on these boards is speculate.
I'm quite happy to believe that if the McCann's were ever questioned (not interviewed) again, they'd say no comment, based on Kate's previous form.
In my opinion there is an enormous difference in questioning designed to set one up for prosecution and questioning designed to gain a greater understanding of events to enable a proper investigation to assist the search for one's missing daughter.
I don't think that requires speculation to work out ... only common sense.
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Not true. I'm sure Sutton still has many contacts within the Met and will have a damn good idea what is going on. Do you really think that ex-colleagues don't chew the fat about cases they're working on ?
I think Mr Sutton has already proved that he has nothing of value to contribute to Madeleine's case the proof being that he has taken a step back from it for the time being.
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So he actually said.... The room for error would be enormous ...yet in your opinion it is as fact they are totally accurate... I find your reasoning poor
Plus the information available to Scotland Yard will not have come from internet publications.
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He wasn't part of SY, for a reason imo.
Speaking to Martin Brunt on Sky News, he said: 'I did receive a call from a very senior met police officer who knew me and said it wouldn’t be a good idea for me to head investigation on the basis that I wouldn’t be happy conducting an investigation being told where I could go and where I couldn’t go, the things I could investigate and the things I couldn’t.
Asked to clarify what he meant, he added: 'The Scotland Yard investigation was going to be very narrowly focused and that focus would be away from any suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of the McCanns or the tapas friends.'
The Tapas Nine refers to the McCann parents and the seven friends they were out to dinner with when Madeleine disappeared in 2007.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4467832/Met-interested-proving-McCann-parents-innocent.html#ixzz55Yy8Iosb
The reason may very well be that Colin Sutton retired in 2011 which was the same year that Operation Grange was set up.
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Plus the information available to Scotland Yard will not have come from internet publications.
On the other hand, unless you have evidence to the contrary, the files they have could be from the very same source.
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In my opinion there is an enormous difference in questioning designed to set one up for prosecution and questioning designed to gain a greater understanding of events to enable a proper investigation to assist the search for one's missing daughter.
I don't think that requires speculation to work out ... only common sense.
This is where we are bound to disagree again. I believe the original investigation wasn't a set up, & that the best chance the PJ ever had of finding Madeleine.
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This is where we are bound to disagree again. I believe the original investigation wasn't a set up, & that the best chance the PJ ever had of finding Madeleine.
I would say it has been IMO established beyond doubt that the original investigation misunderstood the evidence
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I think Mr Sutton has already proved that he has nothing of value to contribute to Madeleine's case the proof being that he has taken a step back from it for the time being.
He has proved no such thing and the reason for him stepping back from the case is speculation, at best, on your part.
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He has proved no such thing and the reason for him stepping back from the case is speculation, at best, on your part.
Then tell us what he has, added... Sutton promised in may 17 he would take a closer look at the case in a, couple of months... He didn't deliver
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Then tell us what he has, added... Sutton promised in may 17 he would take a closer look at the case in a, couple of months... He didn't deliver
Promised ? You sound disproportionately disappointed Davel @)(++(*
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Promised ? You sound disproportionately disappointed Davel @)(++(*
In your opinion... Remembet
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He has proved no such thing and the reason for him stepping back from the case is speculation, at best, on your part.
There is no mystery why Colin Sutton has stepped back from commenting on Madeleine's case on particular fora although still happy to comment and discuss his opinion on Twitter with certain caveats in place.
Although retired he has a full and busy working life to be getting on with and that is precisely what he is doing.
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There is no mystery why Colin Sutton has stepped back from commenting on Madeleine's case on particular fora although still happy to comment and discuss his opinion on Twitter with certain caveats in place.
Although retired he has a full and busy working life to be getting on with and that is precisely what he is doing.
It was your good self Brietta who suggested otherwise.
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It was your good self Brietta who suggested otherwise.
Cite for that claim of fact please.