UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on January 29, 2018, 12:32:15 AM
-
What is the provenance of the joint time line presented to the PJ before the 10th May?
the file concerned has the title "SEQUENCE OF EVENTS: THURSDAY 3rd MAY 2007
20.30 TO 22.00 AS RECALLED BY TAPAS 9"
886 to 890 Letter from PJ regarding written TAPAS timeline (English)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
"Page 886
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:
Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B
Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge. "
Do they all mention contributing to the time line.
-
There seems to be confirmation that the two handwritten time lines were done by Russell.
"Processos Vol X
Page 2577
Terms of Joining
On this date, due to being considered of interest to the investigation, joined to the files are two cover sheets of a children’s book, with handwritten notes on the inside covers, which were provided to this police force on the night of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann by one of those who feature in the case files and a member of the McCann couple group of friends, named Russell O’Brien.
The present terms of joining was drawn up and will be signed.
Portimão, 9th September 2007.
Signed
Inspector Ricardo Paiva" (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm#p10p2567 Is the source of that text in the PJ file.)
-
Sadie mentioned the laptop was borrowed from Georgina the tennis coach. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Georgina_Jackson.htm
Russell's rogatory:
" Reply “Erm you know that we should probably sit down and do this, I think he was quite keen to write it about the whole holiday before the weekend and after erm, I mean in retrospect I think I wish we, I wish we had, erm but we, we settled to do the, you know the immediate period that evening, erm it was typed, I typed it and it was typed on a borrowed laptop from err the tennis coach of Mark WARNER who’s called Georgina, the surname of, of who, I don’t think we have ever, ever known, erm we compiled it over the course of probably a, a couple of sittings during one day. Kate and Gerry by this point after the weekend were, well they were having meetings with the likes of Alan PIKE the Psychologist that came out to, to see them and they were, they were often erm organising things and speaking to people, the Consulate etc., etc., etc., so we actually saw err you know probably less and less of them as the days wore on, so they weren’t here with the initial draft of it, but we just left their comments to be added later and then we told them that we’d done this and they came, err read it through, added in the bits that were relevant to when you know, when, what they saw and err and when they left the table, as well as the time line erm Jane gave a, a full, as full as possible description of the person she thought she saw carrying a child that may have been Madeleine away and I think erm there’s also a fair amount of detail about some suspicions from, from Gerry that the room might have been in a slightly different way, err than what it was based on his and Matt’s observations of going into the room.
So we got, we, we wrote this, we wrote this down very much to try and get a, a permanent record of what we thought as accurate as general as a thought had been in the group, erm having (inaudible), it’s important to say cos we’ve, I get the impression from again you know, from the Police perhaps but, but certainly from what comes out in the Press, that this has been perceived by the PJ as an attempt to, to sort of standardise our answers and you know and make sure that we’re all saying the same thing, it certainly wasn’t created with that intention, it was very much that the original statements were, were brief, were obviously prone to translational difficulties and you know, at no point have we concealed this, I turned up on my second interview and presented them with the, with the stick and said, ‘look we’ve sat down, it’s all typed, we think this is quite accurate, there you go’, so you know, it’s been, it was, it was, it was really quite hard for, you know to hear that, or at least hear the fact be implied that the Police felt that this was some, some conspiracy to try and err and cover things up, this was, this was done to go over the events, down on paper before they become, inevitably they got less and less clear in our mind and we were transparent in that we gave this to the Police at the very next meeting, there was no attempt to conceal this and have this as a hidden document that we were all reading from”.
-
Russell says all the Tapas 9 agreed to the timeline but only 4 of them mention the sequence of event document (timeline document)
Russell and Jane
Matt and Rachael Mention it.
Kate Gerry Dianne Fiona and David don't. That seems too artificial to be honest. IMO a bit strange.
-
Sadie mentioned the laptop was borrowed from Georgina the tennis coach. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Georgina_Jackson.htm -snip-
No not me, Rob. That was someone else, it was news to me.
-
No not me, Rob. That was someone else, it was news to me.
Sorry about that Sadie.
-
Sorry about that Sadie.
That's OK. No probs.
-
Russell says all the Tapas 9 agreed to the timeline but only 4 of them mention the sequence of event document (timeline document)
Russell and Jane
Matt and Rachael Mention it.
Kate Gerry Dianne Fiona and David don't. That seems too artificial to be honest. IMO a bit strange.
Well Kate and Gerry were elsewhere with officials whilst most of it was composed. Gerry just added bits later, so it was not like putting all the effort into getting it accurate as possible. Because of this and everything else going on, upset etc. It probably didn't register on their brains in the same way as it did with the others.
As for David and Fiona, dunno, but as Kates best friend Fiona might have stuck with her , as support, most of the time. Same with Dave supporting Gerry .... or maybe they did the looking after the twins whilst all the official stuff, interviews etc. was going on, so neither were they much involved with the timeline. We just dont know, do we?
We just don't know do we, but personally Rob, I find nothing irregular about the situation
-
Well Kate and Gerry were elsewhere with officials whilst most of it was composed. Gerry just added bits later, so it was not like putting all the effort into getting it accurate as possible. Because of this and everything else going on, upset etc. It probably didn't register on their brains in the same way as it did with the others.
As for David and Fiona, dunno, but as Kates best friend Fiona might have stuck with her , as support, most of the time. Same with Dave supporting Gerry .... or maybe they did the looking after the twins whilst all the official stuff, interviews etc. was going on, so neither were they much involved with the timeline. We just dont know, do we?
We just don't know do we, but personally Rob, I find nothing irregular about the situation
We certainly don't know what any of them were thinking or feeling, but we know that after after their family arrived the McCanns didn't really see their holiday friends. If they didn't all make sure the timeline was accurate it was a waste of time doing it and handing it to the police.
Fiona and Dave only saw the McCanns in the evenings;
every night generally I'd text Kate to say I'm coming over and my mum would look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their apartment
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Jane on the timeline and on seeing the McCanns after 3rd;
But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it........
4078 “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”
Reply “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all. I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
-
We certainly don't know what any of them were thinking or feeling, but we know that after after their family arrived the McCanns didn't really see their holiday friends. If they didn't all make sure the timeline was accurate it was a waste of time doing it and handing it to the police.
Fiona and Dave only saw the McCanns in the evenings;
every night generally I'd text Kate to say I'm coming over and my mum would look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their apartment
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Jane on the timeline and on seeing the McCanns after 3rd;
But we all did it together, we sort of all sat, we sat together and did, did it........
4078 “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”
Reply “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all. I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Can you find any evidence that the joint agreed time line involved the Payne family?
-
Can you find any evidence that the joint agreed time line involved the Payne family?
It involved all seven sitting down together unless you think Jane is lying? She did say she thought it was Dave's idea, but I didn't include that bit.
-
It involved all seven sitting down together unless you think Jane is lying? She did say she thought it was Dave's idea, but I didn't include that bit.
"But we all did it together, we sort of all sat" No actual tally there. Could mean all 6 of them not 9.
-
"But we all did it together, we sort of all sat" No actual tally there. Could mean all 6 of them not 9.
These are mature, intelligent people giving information to the police about the disappearance of a child. If they allowed their names to be added to a document without having any input or with which they disagreed then they were very foolish.
-
These are mature, intelligent people giving information to the police about the disappearance of a child. If they allowed their names to be added to a document without having any input or with which they disagreed then they were very foolish.
the only bit that mentions the Paynes was this sentence "2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table."
Doesn't Dianne appear to be unaware of that in the next interview?
-
the only bit that mentions the Paynes was this sentence "2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table."
Doesn't Dianne appear to be unaware of that in the next interview?
A good example of why a joint timeline should never have been attempted. People are interviewed to find out what they saw and what they remember. Dianne clearly had no recollection of meeting Matthew so she should not have allowed her name to go on that timeline. Very foolish in my opinion.
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
-
A good example of why a joint timeline should never have been attempted. People are interviewed to find out what they saw and what they remember. Dianne clearly had no recollection of meeting Matthew so she should not have allowed her name to go on that timeline. Very foolish in my opinion.
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
They did so with the best of intentions and I believe with the acquiescence of the police.
But I agree. If at all they should have written individual accounts to keep events fresh in mind; but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.
Or even better ... the police should have arranged interpreters and taken interim statements for themselves rather than waiting for the office hours of the 4th.
-
They did so with the best of intentions and I believe with the acquiescence of the police.
But I agree. If at all they should have written individual accounts to keep events fresh in mind; but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.
Or even better ... the police should have arranged interpreters and taken interim statements for themselves rather than waiting for the office hours of the 4th.
As you say, isn't hindsight wonderful.
-
As you say, isn't hindsight wonderful.
For the civilians ... yes.
For trained investigators ... just an elementary diligence.
-
A good example of why a joint timeline should never have been attempted. People are interviewed to find out what they saw and what they remember. Dianne clearly had no recollection of meeting Matthew so she should not have allowed her name to go on that timeline. Very foolish in my opinion.
Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm
There are different ways of explaining things IMO.
-
There are different ways of explaining things IMO.
I don't know what you mean.
-
I don't know what you mean.
if she was party to the joint time line surely she would have remembered that then not a year or so later. I felt let down.
-
if she was party to the joint time line surely she would have remembered that then not a year or so later. I felt let down.
It gets better. During their rogatory interviews the Paynes had grasped that they had passed Matthew. But where?
Dianne wasn't asked, which is a shame, but Dave manages to mess it up this time;
Reply “Yeah well at that, that was the point you see, at that time I don’t, I didn’t remember having passed Matt on the way but you know as time’s gone on and, and err I think Dave, Dave or Fiona mentioned it and that’s, I did then remember.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Matthew said;
and on my way up, about at that top corner before you turn left to get round the back, as you go up the top of the hill, we sort of passed on the way down
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Fiona pretty much agrees;
And just as we were approaching, erm, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry's gate, that sort of area, erm, we bumped into Matt who was heading back to chase us up,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Now Dave gets into a tangle;
1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him''
Reply "Err''
1485 "Can you mark, just''
Reply "Yeah, the err where's, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we'd actually entered into the Tapas bar to just''
1485 "Actually into the complex''
Reply "Just, just into the complex
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
-
Screams false memory to me.
-
It gets better. During their rogatory interviews the Paynes had grasped that they had passed Matthew. But where?
Dianne wasn't asked, which is a shame, but Dave manages to mess it up this time;
Reply “Yeah well at that, that was the point you see, at that time I don’t, I didn’t remember having passed Matt on the way but you know as time’s gone on and, and err I think Dave, Dave or Fiona mentioned it and that’s, I did then remember.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Matthew said;
and on my way up, about at that top corner before you turn left to get round the back, as you go up the top of the hill, we sort of passed on the way down
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Fiona pretty much agrees;
And just as we were approaching, erm, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry's gate, that sort of area, erm, we bumped into Matt who was heading back to chase us up,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Now Dave gets into a tangle;
1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him''
Reply "Err''
1485 "Can you mark, just''
Reply "Yeah, the err where's, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we'd actually entered into the Tapas bar to just''
1485 "Actually into the complex''
Reply "Just, just into the complex
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
So how do you sort that out? Why was there not just a simple answer? Maybe we don't actually remember every thing. I am sure I don't.
-
So how do you sort that out? Why was there not just a simple answer? Maybe we don't actually remember every thing. I am sure I don't.
I don't know if the truth will ever be known, but in my opinion the problems they faced were of their own making. Producing a joint timeline to help the police didn't work at all. In fact it probably aroused suspicion, particularly when individual statements disagreed with it. Add in the fact that they disagreed with each other and, in some cases, with their own earlier statements and it's hardly surprising that the PJ became suspicious.
-
I don't know if the truth will ever be known, but in my opinion the problems they faced were of their own making. Producing a joint timeline to help the police didn't work at all. In fact it probably aroused suspicion, particularly when individual statements disagreed with it. Add in the fact that they disagreed with each other and, in some cases, with their own earlier statements and it's hardly surprising that the PJ became suspicious.
There is a term that is frequently used when a group of witnesses get together to agree what happened.
-
There is a term that is frequently used when a group of witnesses get together to agree what happened.
It has elements of collusion or calibration or correction depends on how one sees it.
-
There is a term that is frequently used when a group of witnesses get together to agree what happened.
It is worth bearing in mind that this group were witnesses at the time and are still witnesses today. Nothing else.
-
It is worth bearing in mind that this group were witnesses at the time and are still witnesses today. Nothing else.
But it was an offence for witnesses to lie, as we are led to believe. I suppose they are safe for it would be impossible to prove who was in error. 3 people are saying 3 different things, so you might think 2 of them are wrong but who were they?
-
It is worth bearing in mind that this group were witnesses at the time and are still witnesses today. Nothing else.
Which may go part way to explaining the reluctance to return for a reconstitution.
-
It has elements of collusion or calibration or correction depends on how one sees it.
What actually happened was that individual recollections were changed. Those recollections may have been wrong, but they may have been right. There's no way of knowing which. Take Russell O'Brien. On the night he wrote down that everyone was at the restaurant at 8.45. A few hours later he's changed it;
he went there at around 8.45pm. When he arrived at the restaurant, nearly all the adults were present, without children, with the exception of David, Fiona and Diane. They arrived more or less 5 minutes later.
A week later he's changed it a bit more;
When he arrived at the restaurant, all the adults were there, without the children. David and Fiona were missing and Dianne Webster. They arrived more or less 10 minutes after.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
In his rog interview he's finally in line with the other witnesses. It's 9 o'clock and the Paynes aren't there;
So Matt, erm, around nine o’clock, give or take a few minutes, but around that sort of time, he got up and said ‘I’ll go and drag them out’
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
-
It gets better. During their rogatory interviews the Paynes had grasped that they had passed Matthew. But where?
Dianne wasn't asked, which is a shame, but Dave manages to mess it up this time;
Reply “Yeah well at that, that was the point you see, at that time I don’t, I didn’t remember having passed Matt on the way but you know as time’s gone on and, and err I think Dave, Dave or Fiona mentioned it and that’s, I did then remember.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Matthew said;
and on my way up, about at that top corner before you turn left to get round the back, as you go up the top of the hill, we sort of passed on the way down
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Fiona pretty much agrees;
And just as we were approaching, erm, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry's gate, that sort of area, erm, we bumped into Matt who was heading back to chase us up,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Now Dave gets into a tangle;
1485 "Whereabouts did you pass him''
Reply "Err''
1485 "Can you mark, just''
Reply "Yeah, the err where's, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we'd actually entered into the Tapas bar to just''
1485 "Actually into the complex''
Reply "Just, just into the complex
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Remember the Smiths, how their group was fragmented?
Have you ever considered that the Paynes might have been walking in a fragmented way too?
With Dave, concerned that they were late and posibly about to be chided by the others rushing to get there ... and Fiona and her mum following at a more sedate pace probably chatting ?.
It happens ............
-
Remember the Smiths, how their group was fragmented?
Have you ever considered that the Paynes might have been walking in a fragmented way too?
With Dave, concerned that they were late and posibly about to be chided by the others rushing to get there ... and Fiona and her mum following at a more sedate pace probably chatting ?.
It happens ............
The women left at 8.45 for the restaurant. Ten minutes later Dave arrived there. Are you suggesting the women lingered and were still up the hill when he arrived? Their statements don't support your musings in my opinion.
They left the apartment at around 8.45 and accompanied by her son-in-law and her daughter, they went to join the rest of the group at the "TAPAS" restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER.htm
She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm
Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE.htm
-
The women left at 8.45 for the restaurant. Ten minutes later Dave arrived there. Are you suggesting the women lingered and were still up the hill when he arrived? Their statements don't support your musings in my opinion.
They left the apartment at around 8.45 and accompanied by her son-in-law and her daughter, they went to join the rest of the group at the "TAPAS" restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER.htm
She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE.htm
Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE.htm
There seems to be unaccounted for time here! 8:45 - 8:55 = 10 minutes and the walk should not take that long.
-
There seems to be unaccounted for time here! 8:45 - 8:55 = 10 minutes and the walk should not take that long.
Dave's time fits with the joint typed timeline;
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
But Matthew didn't pass them in his first statement on 4th;
That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.
That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm
-
Dave's time fits with the joint typed timeline;
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
But Matthew didn't pass them in his first statement on 4th;
That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.
That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm
So what was originally happening at 9:05 in Matt's statement is pushed forward to 8:55 (10 minutes).
if we were to take the extreme of the times 8:45* - 9:05** that is a 20 minute gap.
* 8:45 when DP says he left
** 9:05 at time Matt goes to do apartment check after the Paynes have been hurried up.
(I'm just using times you have already quoted).
-
So what was originally happening at 9:05 in Matt's statement is pushed forward to 8:55 (10 minutes).
if we were to take the extreme of the times 8:45* - 9:05** that is a 20 minute gap.
* 8:45 when DP says he left
** 9:05 at time Matt goes to do apartment check after the Paynes have been hurried up.
(I'm just using times you have already quoted).
In my opinion people changed their memories to fit in with each other. That's why I prefer the earlier statements which are relatively uncontaminated by discussion between the members of the group.
4th May
Kate and Gerry say nothing
Russell says the Paynes arrived at 8.50, Matthew checked just after 9.00
Matthew says the Paynes arrived at 9.00, he checked at 9.05.
Fiona and Dianne say they left their apartment at 8.45, no mention of Matthew.
Dave said they arrived at 8.55, no mention of Matthew.
Jane says Russell and the Paynes arrived at 9.00, no mention of Matthew.
Rachael says Matthew went to find the Paynes and they arrived at 9.00, followed by Matthew a few minutes later.
Seven people agree that they didn't arrive in time for their booking, they were late. They disagree on how late; was it fifteen minutes as in Russell's written timeline or 30 minutes as Matthew, Jane and Rachael say?
Two independent witnesses say no-one was all that late.
On the day of the disappearance, all were seated at the table between 20H35 and 20H45. He remembers them arriving as usual. Had they arrived late, this would have been noted by the staff.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
In the end it was Rachael's account which was adopted by the whole group, but why? Perhaps the answer lies in Jane's statement;
At about 21.00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, having got E**e to sleep. For this reason and because Fiona, David and Diane only arrived at about 21.00, the dinner, reserved for 20.30, only began after 21.00.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm
-
I wonder if at the beginning of the joint time line discussions they all had to read their 4th May statements just to reveal the shambles it all seemed. It seems a shambles to me.
-
I wonder if at the beginning of the joint time line discussions they all had to read their 4th May statements just to reveal the shambles it all seemed. It seems a shambles to me.
Why would they have copies of those statements?
It was a shambles but why did it matter? Why was it thought necessary for everyone's statements to agree with Rachael's version?
-
Why would they have copies of those statements?
It was a shambles but why did it matter? Why was it thought necessary for everyone's statements to agree with Rachael's version?
I think GA expected their statements to align I had read before a headline that went something like "badly told story". He judged them on it from what I could tell.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm
"JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go."
That must have been from their statements.
-
Just to add to the shambles, Russell's recall has improved significantly by the time of his rog interview. He now remembers something no-one else had mentioned;
So there were lots of jokes about the fact that they were still, still not there and probably if we didn’t get a move on they weren’t going to serve us.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
-
Just to add to the shambles, Russell's recall has improved significantly by the time of his rog interview. He now remembers something no-one else had mentioned;
So there were lots of jokes about the fact that they were still, still not there and probably if we didn’t get a move on they weren’t going to serve us.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
It is one thing to be joking and another to sanction them.
-
I think GA expected their statements to align I had read before a headline that went something like "badly told story". He judged them on it from what I could tell.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm
"JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA
Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias'
Information started circulating from sources connected to the Portuguese police that the story was full of holes from the side of the McCanns and their friends. Indeed within two days of Madeleine disappearing, this crime correspondent was filing this piece in the Portuguese Daily: Diario of the Noticias: "Headline: a badly told story." We started to receive information according to which the police suspected the theory they had apprehensions, didn't believe the theory that she had been kidnapped. To conclude, the police started to suspect the parents from the word go."
That must have been from their statements.
I have seen it said that the initial GNR officer/s could not understand Gerrys early behaviour when he prostrated himself on the floor and they filed a suspicious report on Gerry.
They couldn't understand Kates wish to see a priest either ... and thought that this was a sign that Madeleine was dead as a typical Portugues would behave upon the death of a near one, it seems.
So it could well have been from these observations of the GNR Oficer mis-reading the behaviour of a Brit. IMO
-
I have seen it said that the initial GNR officer/s could not understand Gerrys early behaviour when he prostrated himself on the floor and they filed a suspicious report on Gerry.
They couldn't understand Kates wish to see a priest either ... and thought that this was a sign that Madeleine was dead as a typical Portugues would behave upon the death of a near one, it seems.
So it could well have been from these observations of the GNR Oficer mis-reading the behaviour of a Brit. IMO
Does anyone know the previous time she saw a priest? Was she a regular church goer?
-
Does anyone know the previous time she saw a priest? Was she a regular church goer?
Not according to her mum.
-
Not according to her mum.
From memory only: didn't Susan Healy just say "Kate was not a devout Catholic"?
-
From memory only: didn't Susan Healy just say "Kate was not a devout Catholic"?
Yup, pretty sure she did, or words to that effect.
-
Yup, pretty sure she did, or words to that effect.
My impression of a devout catholic would be saying the rosary and having a certain types of pictures hanging in the kitchen and lounge in your house. Who knows how one determines that.
-
My impression of a devout catholic would be saying the rosary and having a certain types of pictures hanging in the kitchen and lounge in your house. Who knows how one determines that.
Would expect regular church-going would feature. And before you ask, at least once a week.
-
Would expect regular church-going would feature. And before you ask, at least once a week.
And confession - how often may I ask?
-
My impression of a devout catholic would be saying the rosary and having a certain types of pictures hanging in the kitchen and lounge in your house. Who knows how one determines that.
If there is one adjective that a Catholic would never use to describe their own Catholic practice, it would be "devout".
It's an over used and meaningless word much loved by the press.
-
And confession - how often may I ask?
Probably never away from the booth @)(++(*
-
Probably never away from the booth @)(++(*
Am I allowed to say it? Father forgive me, for I have sinned, but you Jassi are quite wicked!
-
If there is one adjective that a Catholic would never use to describe their own Catholic practice, it would be "devout".
It's an over used and meaningless word much loved by the press.
.....and every other Tom, Dick and Harry as we say around here.