UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on March 24, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9213.msg452972#msg452972
In that post Davel made this claim We do because both Kate and Gerry have both publicly contested the alerts to cadaver... Trying to show they haven't is a tad ridiculous.... Imo
I have in the back of my mind been searching for a confirmed denial of the alerts from Gerry or Kate and in the end I thought there were none. Am I entirely wrong, Davel thinks so.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9213.msg452996#msg452996 In this post I ask Davel to produce evidence of his claim: "Can you actually find one and we will look at what they say please?"
"both Kate and Gerry have both publicly contested the alerts to cadaver" True/False?
So far I have not had an answer.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9213.msg452972#msg452972
In that post Davel made this claim We do because both Kate and Gerry have both publicly contested the alerts to cadaver... Trying to show they haven't is a tad ridiculous.... Imo
I have in the back of my mind been searching for a confirmed denial of the alerts from Gerry or Kate and in the end I thought there were none. Am I entirely wrong, Davel thinks so.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9213.msg452996#msg452996 In this post I ask Davel to produce evidence of his claim: "Can you actually find one and we will look at what they say please?"
"both Kate and Gerry have both publicly contested the alerts to cadaver" True/False?
So far I have not had an answer.
Gerry is, on record, as saying the alerts are, unreliable and Kate says, similar, in her, book
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Gerry is, on record, as saying the alerts are, unreliable and Kate says, similar, in her, book
OK in that interview he said studies have shown cadaver dogs were unreliable. Did that apply to Eddie? How reliable was he?
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OK in that interview he said studies have shown cadaver dogs were unreliable. Did that apply to Eddie? How reliable was he?
No one knows, because he had never been scientifically tested... The alerts, are not proven or confirmed
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OK what does Kate McCann say in her book about the cadaver dogs?
"Gerry and Kate’s reaction to sniffer dogs hitting on McCann holiday apartment and rental car ‘didn’t make sense’"
http://www.cadaverdog.net/gerry-and-kates-reaction-to-sniffer-dogs-hitting-on-mccann-holiday-apartment-and-rental-car-didnt-make-sense/
"US criminal profiler Pat Brown, who for almost a decade has studied the case and written extensively on Madeleine’s disappearance, described Kate and Gerry’s reaction to the sniffer dogs as “just not right”." I don't think Pat Brown gets it right in this case.
"Brown believed it strange that the McCann’s did not appear “very concerned” that the work of the dogs indicated a dead body had been in their Algarve holiday apartment."
"During a 2009 television interview with Portuguese journalist Sandra Felgueira, Gerry McCann was asked about the cadaver dogs alerting to the scent of a dead body in apartment 5A and their rental car.
“I can tell you that we’ve obviously looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they’re incredibly unreliable,” McCann replied.
Kate McCann made similar assertions in the book she wrote about her family’s ordeal, titled Madeleine."
Saying they are unreliable is that contesting the result? I'm not convinced. I'm still not convinced they are denying that there was cadaver odour in the apartment.
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Your thread says have the mccanns ever contested the cadaver alerts.. They have..
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OK what does Kate McCann say in her book about the cadaver dogs?
"Gerry and Kate’s reaction to sniffer dogs hitting on McCann holiday apartment and rental car ‘didn’t make sense’"
http://www.cadaverdog.net/gerry-and-kates-reaction-to-sniffer-dogs-hitting-on-mccann-holiday-apartment-and-rental-car-didnt-make-sense/
"US criminal profiler Pat Brown, who for almost a decade has studied the case and written extensively on Madeleine’s disappearance, described Kate and Gerry’s reaction to the sniffer dogs as “just not right”." I don't think Pat Brown gets it right in this case.
"Brown believed it strange that the McCann’s did not appear “very concerned” that the work of the dogs indicated a dead body had been in their Algarve holiday apartment."
"During a 2009 television interview with Portuguese journalist Sandra Felgueira, Gerry McCann was asked about the cadaver dogs alerting to the scent of a dead body in apartment 5A and their rental car.
“I can tell you that we’ve obviously looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they’re incredibly unreliable,” McCann replied.
Kate McCann made similar assertions in the book she wrote about her family’s ordeal, titled Madeleine."
Saying they are unreliable is that contesting the result? I'm not convinced. I'm still not convinced they are denying that there was cadaver odour in the apartment.
I would think most people would be devastated by the alerts.
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I would think most people would be devastated by the alerts.
So now you claim to know how most people think
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I would think most people would be devastated by the alerts.
The mccanns may have been shocked originally but their background would teach them not to accept things at face value... Some research and then seeing the video would have caused them to understand how unreliable these, alerts are.. Imo
Which I think is exactly what happened
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So now you claim to know how most people think
He is allowed to have an opinion on the topic.
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He is allowed to have an opinion on the topic.
He was criticizing others yesterday for claiming to understand how the mccanns think
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The mccanns may have been shocked originally but their background would teach them not to accept things at face value... Some research and then seeing the video would have caused them to understand how unreliable these, alerts are.. Imo
Which I think is exactly what happened
How many alerts were there? each might might only be 50% correct but will all 9 of them be in error?
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He was criticizing others yesterday for claiming to understand how the mccanns think
When you see a person's reaction you are not really seeing how they think.
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How many alerts were there? each might might only be 50% correct but will all 9 of them be in error?
Might being the operative word....what value would you give the CC alert... Without proper scientific tests, we cannot predict the, accuracy of the alerts
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When you see a person's reaction you are not really seeing how they think.
I'm not really interested in taking the thread off topic
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Your thread says have the mccanns ever contested the cadaver alerts.. They have..
I want you to prove they contested the cadaver alerts. OK I see in Kate's book she mentions a court case but not really a study. To do with the Zapata case. In the Chapter "the fightback begins" 8th page of chapter.
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Might being the operative word....what value would you give the CC alert... Without proper scientific tests, we cannot predict the, accuracy of the alerts
" I do say myself that the Cuddle Cat alert was a mistake. The dog alerted to something but it was not proven to be CC IMO.
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I want you to prove they contested the cadaver alerts. OK I see in Kate's book she mentions a court case but not really a study. To do with the Zapata case. In the Chapter "the fightback begins" 8th page of chapter.
Kate, also says that according to what she has, read the cadaver odour would only last Max30 days in such a building... The nccanns, have criticized the alerts and the value placed on them.. Kits, about time you accepted that imo
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Kate, also says that according to what she has, read the cadaver odour would only last Max30 days in such a building... The nccanns, have criticized the alerts and the value placed on them.. Kits, about time you accepted that imo
Where do you think that quote comes from? I can't recall it myself. Anyone remember this cite?
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Where do you think that quote comes from? I can't recall it myself. Anyone remember this cite?
Have you read, Kate's book
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/09/scent_of_a_dead_woman.html
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Have you read, Kate's book
I wouldn't say I remember every line, but yes I read it. Are you saying that last remark was in her book? " the cadaver odour would only last Max 30 days in such a building." When did she become an expert on these matters?
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I wouldn't say I remember every line, but yes I read it. Are you saying that last remark was in her book? " the cadaver odour would only last Max 30 days in such a building." When did she become an expert on these matters?
Read my post again... And you will see that I said kate, read somewhere.. She is not claiming to be an expert and that's, a, silly thing to say
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I wouldn't say I remember every line, but yes I read it. Are you saying that last remark was in her book? " the cadaver odour would only last Max 30 days in such a building." When did she become an expert on these matters?
Gerry probably told her - he is, after all, the expert par excellence on that sort of dog.
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Read my post again... And you will see that I said kate, read somewhere.. She is not claiming to be an expert and that's, a, silly thing to say
I'm a scientist myself so I accept people calling me silly from time to time, but for her to read it is OK but then to apply what she read to the situation is where the expertise comes in. OK she is a doctor too, a smart cookie.
Gerry probably told her - he is, after all, the expert par excellence on that sort of dog.
So true!
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I'm a scientist myself so I accept people calling me silly from time to time, but for her to read it is OK but then to apply what she read to the situation is where the expertise comes in. OK she is a doctor too, a smart cookie.
So true!
She read cadaver scent lasts a Max 30...or there, abouts
I'm from a, scientific background so if you want a, serious discussion.. Fine... But if you play the fool I will tell you
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I'm a scientist myself so I accept people calling me silly from time to time, but for her to read it is OK but then to apply what she read to the situation is where the expertise comes in. OK she is a doctor too, a smart cookie.
So true!
So why have theses expert dog handlers never thought to try some proper scientific tests... Do they not have confidence in their dogs
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So why have theses expert dog handlers never thought to try some proper scientific tests... Do they not have confidence in their dogs
I think with daily training exercises the handler would know how skilful his dog was.
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I think with daily training exercises the handler would know how skilful his dog was.
I thought you said you we're, a scientist...hopefully grime understands his dogs but it is his opinion it is only possible or suggestive the alert was to cadaver...thats all
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I thought you said you we're, a scientist...
Daily verification test. If MG put out a sample and Eddie didn't find it then he'd need more training and play if he got it right. I can't see what is wrong with that.
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Daily verification test. If MG put out a sample and Eddie didn't find it then he'd need more training and play if he got it right. I can't see what is wrong with that.
Then you are not a scientist
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Then you are not a scientist
I think you are confusing the science to show the effectiveness and the ongoing quality control of the process.
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Then you are not a scientist
Is it a prerequisite to be one to post anonymously on a forum discussing something that happened nigh on 11 yrs ago?
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Is it a prerequisite to be one to post anonymously on a forum discussing something that happened nigh on 11 yrs ago?
It certainly helps if you have at least a BSc in bulls**t detection.
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Then you are not a scientist
Do you think the daily training of Eddie and Keela was a waste of time?
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Do you think the daily training of Eddie and Keela was a waste of time?
If you understand eddies, role it's not a, waste of time.. But most here, don't understand, eddies role and, what he, is, trained, for
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If you understand eddies, role it's not a, waste of time.. But most here, don't understand, eddies role and, what he, is, trained, for
Was MG doing his training wrong? The one thing that concerned me if Martin did the setting up of the training exercise Eddie could have been tracking where Martin walked till he found the cadaver sample along the route. I think someone else needed to set up the sample to find at times.
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Was MG doing his training wrong?
He took his dogs to the USA,for additional traing is it being suggested that the FBI are wrong and posters here are right.
He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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GRIME
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
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GRIME
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
I have a feeling that pork properly processed can be distinguished from "whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption" So no reaction to ham or crackling, bacon sandwiches - all that is not alerted to IMO.
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I have a feeling that pork properly processed can be distinguished from "whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption" So no reaction to ham or crackling, bacon sandwiches - all that is not alerted to IMO.
Could you clarify where he stated that entire phrase in bold to the PJ?
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human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.
So training dogs only on human decomposing material has no advantage
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Could you clarify where he stated that entire phrase in bold to the PJ?
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated
assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I
introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the
animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet
cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from
scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train'
the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be
possible in the future.
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
still born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
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I think you are confusing the science to show the effectiveness and the ongoing quality control of the process.
I'm confusing nothing... The dogs testing is not to scientific standards and that's part of the reason no inference can be drawn from the alerts. It doesn't really matter because the dogs real value is in finding actual evidence that can be used in court
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I have a feeling that pork properly processed can be distinguished from "whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption" So no reaction to ham or crackling, bacon sandwiches - all that is not alerted to IMO.
So how do you explain this?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
snipped
In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in
petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Specific reference to pork, the flesh of a pig.
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IMO this article, written in 2012, goes a long way to explaining why Kate & Gerry were perfectly correct to class Eddie's alerts as unreliable,
http://doglawreporter-bay-net.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html#
TRAINING CADAVER DOGS ON PIG REMAINS MAY LEAD TO EVIDENTIARY CHALLENGES
Perhaps the most important research being conducted on cadaver dogs is that of Mary Cablk of the Desert Research Institute in Reno and her colleagues at the University of Nevada-Reno. In June 2011, we discussed an important study in which she tested the ability of dogs to find teeth in a natural environment.
In a paper appearing in Forensic Science International, Dr. Cablk, Erin Szelagowski, and John Sagabiel analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and compared the chemicals found with what could be expected from human decomposition. The animal remains were from cows, pigs, and chickens. The researchers found that the “VOC signatures” of the animal remains differed from each other, but also from humans.
The difference between pigs and humans was particularly important to describe because pig remains are sometimes used to train human remains detection dogs—cadaver dogs. See, for instance, the training instructions of Southwest Rescue Dogs, Inc., which state:
“SRDI dogs train on real cadaver material. Alternative sources are available, such as pseudoscent. Pig flesh is similar to human and is used as a training aid if you do not have access to cadaver material. SRDI also uses soil from a burn area for training aids.”
This practice must now be questioned because the researchers concluded that pig VOC signatures shared only seven of 30 human-specific compounds, while nine unique compounds in pig VOC signatures were not found in human samples. Curiously, chicken and human samples were actually closer to the human signature.
HRD Dogs
The researchers note that compared to drug and bomb dogs, scientific literature on human remains detection (HRD) dog capabilities is sparse. They note (citing Lorenzo et al. 2003), as they had earlier in the paper about finding human teeth, that the belief that HRD dogs can differentiate between human and animal remains “has yet to be tested in a rigorous experimental framework.”
They also note that certifying HRD dog teams often requires that dogs not indicate on animal remains placed on the ground surface, citing procedures of the International Police Work Dog Association, the North American Police Work Dog Association, and the California Emergency Management Agency. (It should perhaps be noted that FEMA has put its imprimatur on IPWDA and other organizations for human remains canine search teams.) As to such testing procedures, the researchers state:
Such demonstrations cannot be considered proof that the HRD dog team does not alert on animal remains because these demonstrations lack a blind or double-blind protocol stipulation, thus enabling bias from handler, evaluator, or others.”
For this statement the researchers discuss the article by U.C. Davis researchers on handler beliefs, discussed by us in a draft paper posted on the website of the Michigan State University College of Law.
The researchers also state that the “potential for the handler to see the animal remains during the test is likewise problematic." No specific citation for this sentence is provided, but some organizations create testing environments where this possibility does exist. The International Police Work Dog Association provides that animal remains “may be on the surface to act as a distraction.” The NASAR Canine Certification Program (revised December 31, 2010), provides that distractions that may be used during testing include “commercially manufactured animal urine, horse or cow manure, legally obtained skeletal or other remains of animals, animal skins obtained and possessed within local wildlife regulations, or animal antlers obtained and possessed within local wildlife regulations.”
Training with Human Remains
The researchers note that training “rarely involves the use of entire decedents because such aids are difficult to access, store, and maintain as well as having significant legal issues to possess.” In some countries use of human remains for such a purpose would be illegal. Dogs may be trained on fabric or soil that has been in direct contact with human remains or with small tissue samples. The researchers also note that “immediately after death a corpse begins the process of decomposition and different parts of the body decompose at different rates allowing for certain compounds to emanate from the body faster than others.” They state (citing Rebmann 2000) that often “the level of decomposition of the training aid and the purity of the sample is unknown.”
The researchers observe that dating “the relationship between VOCs from human remains and the odor signature that canines recognize as target odor is poorly understood.” An instrument may detect VOCs that a dog does not. Consequently, studies determining ratios of compounds using solid-phase microextraction-gas chromatograph/mass spectrometry (SPME-GC/MS), according to the researchers, “may not be realistic to the actual odor signature.”
Cross-Contamination
The researchers state that cross-contamination of training aids occurs in two ways:
“First, cross-contamination occurs when a training aid of one type (e.g., bone) is stored in proximity to a training aid of another type (e.g., blood) in permeable containers and when training aids are stored together in the same container without physical separation. Either situation results in training aids that no longer emit an odor signature true to the original target, rather the odor emitted becomes a mixture from multiple targets…. Training aids also become contaminated with permeable container odor, such as plastics like polyvinyl chloride, which degrades the desired human remains specificity training on the dog.”
Cross-contamination can also arise from inadequate storage, improper handling and placement, poor choices of packaging materials, and vapor pressure, storage temperature, or humidity. Another problem is that training aids are stored in aerobic conditions but a cadaver may be buried in anaerobic conditions (citing Vass et al. 2008).
Pseudo Scents
Pseudo scents for heroin, marijuana, and explosives have been designed to match measured VOC profiles, yet one study (Marcias et al. 2008) found that dogs did not respond to the pseudo scents. “The lack of response by the trained detector dogs indicated a mis-match between the instrument-measured, human-interpreted profile and the dogs’ recognized scent signature.” (The Supreme Court is poised to decide whether a drug dog’s training and certification is insufficient to provide probable cause for a vehicle search in Florida v. Harris (Docket No. 11-817), a case on which the Court granted certiorari on March 26. If a dog has been trained using a fallible technique, could it be said to be “well-trained?”
Although a certification procedure is something of a threshold to assure the dog has some skills, an analysis of the dog’s performance history would more fully establish a canine team’s capabilities.)
The researchers state that if “synthetic training aids were available then the reliability of HRD dogs might increase simply through improved specificity and sensitivity to the trained target odor.” It is not clear if the researchers were aware of, or chose not to mention, that there already are pseudo scents, such as Sigma-Aldrich’s Pseudo Corpse Scent Formulations. The adoption of pseudo scents would require many standards to be modified to permit use of such scents.
What is Uniquely Deceased Human in an Odor Signature?
The researchers used as a model a prior study (Macias et al. 2009) that sought to suggest possible target signature compounds that could be tested for recognition by HRD dogs. Cablk and her colleagues wanted to compare VOCs in the headspace of cows, chickens, and pig remains with those of the 2009 study on human remains “to examine potential compounds that might be part of the odor signature that is uniquely ‘deceased human’ and identify possible generic decomposition indicators.” The current study replicated the 2009 study in part to eliminate potentially contributing VOC sources such as soil microbial activity and nearby air emission sources. (As already noted, Southwest Rescue Dogs, Inc. permits use of soil from a burn area as a training aid.)
If dogs can differentiate between the scent of human decomposition and that of animal decomposition, the VOCs found in animal decomposition should differ from those found in human decomposition enough for the dog to recognize the difference. Alternatively, the ratios of specific VOCs could allow the dogs to differentiate. The researchers found that there are, in fact, different VOCs involved in human decomposition and the three species of animals that were used. Curiously, however, particularly considering the preference for using pigs as substitutes for humans in some forensic procedures, the researchers found that by all measures, the compounds shared by humans and pigs were least similar.
Vass et al. (2008) listed 30 compounds as key markers of human decompositions, of which seven were found in animal samples by Cablk and her colleagues. These compounds could not be considered human-specific. The researchers also discussed some compounds that might be found in some people but not others because of environmental factors. It is also to be noted that while dogs have much more sensitive olfactory systems than we do, there are some chemicals as to which their sensitivity may not be significantly different from ours (Tonosaki and Tucker, 1985).
Future Research
The researchers state that a further study should involve presenting HRD dogs “with human samples and animal samples in a scientific framework to determine if the canines alert on both human and animal scent or demonstrate the ability to differentiate between the two by alerting on human scent only. This information might allow us to eliminate compounds or at least guide in determining what compounds or ratios of compounds might be need to be included in a canine’s training aid.” Also, instrument detectors being developed may ultimately replace dogs in cadaver searches.
Future research should perhaps take into account that untrained dogs sometimes find human remains and training methods such as two-step procedures whereby (1) the dog is first trained to indicate to an indirect stimulus (pig) and (2) then undergoes extinction training to disassociate decomposing pig odor from cadaver odor. Headspace studies may not readily incorporate an understanding of such approaches.
Conclusion
Other groups are looking at the VOC profile produced by pig carcasses and human remains, so additional studies may be expected.
As we noted in Police and Military Dogs, the work of cadaver dogs is relatively infrequently questioned in court because a cadaver is found and identified by DNA, dental comparison, or other procedures. The work of the dog becomes historical to the case, and does not receive more than a brief mention in a judicial opinion. Nevertheless, this study may have an impact on future prosecutions where a body has not been found and the dog’s alert is taken as proof that the suspected decedent was present at a location, or in cases where the body has been found and the prosecution’s problem is to establish that it was in the defendant’s car or house or at some other specific location (consider the recent Casey Anthony prosecution involving a car trunk). If the defense can make a plausible argument that a dead pig or other animal might have been at the location, and establish that the dog’s training aids included swine remains, a court may have to consider the implications of this research.
Cablk, M.E., Szelagowski, E.E., and Sagebiel, J.C. (2012). Characterization of the Volatile Organic Compounds Present in the Headspace of Decomposing Animals Remains, and Compared with Human Remains. Forensic Science International (2012) (doi:10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.02.007).
This blog was written by John Ensminger and L.E. Papet.
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Gerry probably told her - he is, after all, the expert par excellence on that sort of dog.
Yeah , because as Davel says their 'training' would let them know not to take things at face value and would study and research... (&^& (&^& (&^&
They dismissed the findings for strange reasons. If my child was missing and I was told that dogs had highlighted a scent of a cadaver being in the apartment, IF I WAS INNOCENT, I would be distraught. but hey ho Gerry gives it the well I am a doctor you see attitude cool as a cucumber-and they are unreliable- go ask the dogs snigger snigger..
This is the same Gerry who believes his daughter was abducted by paedophile gang... yeah I know...
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GRIME
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
So to conclude, on that basis, we are to believe that someone took a whole pig into that apartment and killed it. OK fair enough.
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So to conclude, on that basis, we are to believe that someone took a whole pig into that apartment and killed it. OK fair enough.
Progress at last 8((()*/
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Progress at last 8((()*/
Yeah, I Think I have cracked the case! All I need to find out is.... who killed the whole pig? With a supermarket nearby one has to wonder why livestock was seen as a cheaper meat cut choice.
Pigs are used in scientific experiments for human blood borne diseases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560993/
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Progress at last 8((()*/
It certainly eliminates a signficant percentage of the world's population.
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It certainly eliminates a signficant percentage of the world's population.
Yes Alice we can say with certainty it wasn't the 'Jews' as claimed by some to be behind this blood line snatch match. and it wasn't Muslims or vegetarians OR vegans or Buddists OR..!!!.... that does narrow it down a bit.
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IMO this article, written in 2012, goes a long way to explaining why Kate & Gerry were perfectly correct to class Eddie's alerts as unreliable,
http://doglawreporter-bay-net.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/training-cadaver-dogs-on-pig-remains.html#
TRAINING CADAVER DOGS ON PIG REMAINS MAY LEAD TO EVIDENTIARY CHALLENGES
Perhaps the most important research being conducted on cadaver dogs is that of Mary Cablk of the Desert Research Institute in Reno and her colleagues at the University of Nevada-Reno. In June 2011, we discussed an important study in which she tested the ability of dogs to find teeth in a natural environment.
In a paper appearing in Forensic Science International, Dr. Cablk, Erin Szelagowski, and John Sagabiel analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and compared the chemicals found with what could be expected from human decomposition. The animal remains were from cows, pigs, and chickens. The researchers found that the “VOC signatures” of the animal remains differed from each other, but also from humans.
The difference between pigs and humans was particularly important to describe because pig remains are sometimes used to train human remains detection dogs—cadaver dogs. See, for instance, the training instructions of Southwest Rescue Dogs, Inc., which state:
“SRDI dogs train on real cadaver material. Alternative sources are available, such as pseudoscent. Pig flesh is similar to human and is used as a training aid if you do not have access to cadaver material. SRDI also uses soil from a burn area for training aids.”
This practice must now be questioned because the researchers concluded that pig VOC signatures shared only seven of 30 human-specific compounds, while nine unique compounds in pig VOC signatures were not found in human samples. Curiously, chicken and human samples were actually closer to the human signature.
HRD Dogs
The researchers note that compared to drug and bomb dogs, scientific literature on human remains detection (HRD) dog capabilities is sparse. They note (citing Lorenzo et al. 2003), as they had earlier in the paper about finding human teeth, that the belief that HRD dogs can differentiate between human and animal remains “has yet to be tested in a rigorous experimental framework.”
They also note that certifying HRD dog teams often requires that dogs not indicate on animal remains placed on the ground surface, citing procedures of the International Police Work Dog Association, the North American Police Work Dog Association, and the California Emergency Management Agency. (It should perhaps be noted that FEMA has put its imprimatur on IPWDA and other organizations for human remains canine search teams.) As to such testing procedures, the researchers state:
Such demonstrations cannot be considered proof that the HRD dog team does not alert on animal remains because these demonstrations lack a blind or double-blind protocol stipulation, thus enabling bias from handler, evaluator, or others.”
For this statement the researchers discuss the article by U.C. Davis researchers on handler beliefs, discussed by us in a draft paper posted on the website of the Michigan State University College of Law.
The researchers also state that the “potential for the handler to see the animal remains during the test is likewise problematic." No specific citation for this sentence is provided, but some organizations create testing environments where this possibility does exist. The International Police Work Dog Association provides that animal remains “may be on the surface to act as a distraction.” The NASAR Canine Certification Program (revised December 31, 2010), provides that distractions that may be used during testing include “commercially manufactured animal urine, horse or cow manure, legally obtained skeletal or other remains of animals, animal skins obtained and possessed within local wildlife regulations, or animal antlers obtained and possessed within local wildlife regulations.”
Training with Human Remains
The researchers note that training “rarely involves the use of entire decedents because such aids are difficult to access, store, and maintain as well as having significant legal issues to possess.” In some countries use of human remains for such a purpose would be illegal. Dogs may be trained on fabric or soil that has been in direct contact with human remains or with small tissue samples. The researchers also note that “immediately after death a corpse begins the process of decomposition and different parts of the body decompose at different rates allowing for certain compounds to emanate from the body faster than others.” They state (citing Rebmann 2000) that often “the level of decomposition of the training aid and the purity of the sample is unknown.”
The researchers observe that dating “the relationship between VOCs from human remains and the odor signature that canines recognize as target odor is poorly understood.” An instrument may detect VOCs that a dog does not. Consequently, studies determining ratios of compounds using solid-phase microextraction-gas chromatograph/mass spectrometry (SPME-GC/MS), according to the researchers, “may not be realistic to the actual odor signature.”
Cross-Contamination
The researchers state that cross-contamination of training aids occurs in two ways:
“First, cross-contamination occurs when a training aid of one type (e.g., bone) is stored in proximity to a training aid of another type (e.g., blood) in permeable containers and when training aids are stored together in the same container without physical separation. Either situation results in training aids that no longer emit an odor signature true to the original target, rather the odor emitted becomes a mixture from multiple targets…. Training aids also become contaminated with permeable container odor, such as plastics like polyvinyl chloride, which degrades the desired human remains specificity training on the dog.”
Cross-contamination can also arise from inadequate storage, improper handling and placement, poor choices of packaging materials, and vapor pressure, storage temperature, or humidity. Another problem is that training aids are stored in aerobic conditions but a cadaver may be buried in anaerobic conditions (citing Vass et al. 2008).
Pseudo Scents
Pseudo scents for heroin, marijuana, and explosives have been designed to match measured VOC profiles, yet one study (Marcias et al. 2008) found that dogs did not respond to the pseudo scents. “The lack of response by the trained detector dogs indicated a mis-match between the instrument-measured, human-interpreted profile and the dogs’ recognized scent signature.” (The Supreme Court is poised to decide whether a drug dog’s training and certification is insufficient to provide probable cause for a vehicle search in Florida v. Harris (Docket No. 11-817), a case on which the Court granted certiorari on March 26. If a dog has been trained using a fallible technique, could it be said to be “well-trained?”
Although a certification procedure is something of a threshold to assure the dog has some skills, an analysis of the dog’s performance history would more fully establish a canine team’s capabilities.)
The researchers state that if “synthetic training aids were available then the reliability of HRD dogs might increase simply through improved specificity and sensitivity to the trained target odor.” It is not clear if the researchers were aware of, or chose not to mention, that there already are pseudo scents, such as Sigma-Aldrich’s Pseudo Corpse Scent Formulations. The adoption of pseudo scents would require many standards to be modified to permit use of such scents.
What is Uniquely Deceased Human in an Odor Signature?
The researchers used as a model a prior study (Macias et al. 2009) that sought to suggest possible target signature compounds that could be tested for recognition by HRD dogs. Cablk and her colleagues wanted to compare VOCs in the headspace of cows, chickens, and pig remains with those of the 2009 study on human remains “to examine potential compounds that might be part of the odor signature that is uniquely ‘deceased human’ and identify possible generic decomposition indicators.” The current study replicated the 2009 study in part to eliminate potentially contributing VOC sources such as soil microbial activity and nearby air emission sources. (As already noted, Southwest Rescue Dogs, Inc. permits use of soil from a burn area as a training aid.)
If dogs can differentiate between the scent of human decomposition and that of animal decomposition, the VOCs found in animal decomposition should differ from those found in human decomposition enough for the dog to recognize the difference. Alternatively, the ratios of specific VOCs could allow the dogs to differentiate. The researchers found that there are, in fact, different VOCs involved in human decomposition and the three species of animals that were used. Curiously, however, particularly considering the preference for using pigs as substitutes for humans in some forensic procedures, the researchers found that by all measures, the compounds shared by humans and pigs were least similar.
Vass et al. (2008) listed 30 compounds as key markers of human decompositions, of which seven were found in animal samples by Cablk and her colleagues. These compounds could not be considered human-specific. The researchers also discussed some compounds that might be found in some people but not others because of environmental factors. It is also to be noted that while dogs have much more sensitive olfactory systems than we do, there are some chemicals as to which their sensitivity may not be significantly different from ours (Tonosaki and Tucker, 1985).
Future Research
The researchers state that a further study should involve presenting HRD dogs “with human samples and animal samples in a scientific framework to determine if the canines alert on both human and animal scent or demonstrate the ability to differentiate between the two by alerting on human scent only. This information might allow us to eliminate compounds or at least guide in determining what compounds or ratios of compounds might be need to be included in a canine’s training aid.” Also, instrument detectors being developed may ultimately replace dogs in cadaver searches.
Future research should perhaps take into account that untrained dogs sometimes find human remains and training methods such as two-step procedures whereby (1) the dog is first trained to indicate to an indirect stimulus (pig) and (2) then undergoes extinction training to disassociate decomposing pig odor from cadaver odor. Headspace studies may not readily incorporate an understanding of such approaches.
Conclusion
Other groups are looking at the VOC profile produced by pig carcasses and human remains, so additional studies may be expected.
As we noted in Police and Military Dogs, the work of cadaver dogs is relatively infrequently questioned in court because a cadaver is found and identified by DNA, dental comparison, or other procedures. The work of the dog becomes historical to the case, and does not receive more than a brief mention in a judicial opinion. Nevertheless, this study may have an impact on future prosecutions where a body has not been found and the dog’s alert is taken as proof that the suspected decedent was present at a location, or in cases where the body has been found and the prosecution’s problem is to establish that it was in the defendant’s car or house or at some other specific location (consider the recent Casey Anthony prosecution involving a car trunk). If the defense can make a plausible argument that a dead pig or other animal might have been at the location, and establish that the dog’s training aids included swine remains, a court may have to consider the implications of this research.
Cablk, M.E., Szelagowski, E.E., and Sagebiel, J.C. (2012). Characterization of the Volatile Organic Compounds Present in the Headspace of Decomposing Animals Remains, and Compared with Human Remains. Forensic Science International (2012) (doi:10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.02.007).
This blog was written by John Ensminger and L.E. Papet.
One set of researchers sticking their flag in the ground.
What of the other groups of researchers referred to in the conclusion? Did they concur with this group?
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One set of researchers sticking their flag in the ground.
What of the other groups of researchers referred to in the conclusion? Did they concur with this group?
No!... Dontcha love it when scientist are seeking funding for 'research' the scare stories are abound.
If you don't want cancer you must not eat these foods say one set of research paper, you must eat these foods to prevent cancer say another researcher *%87
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One set of researchers sticking their flag in the ground.
What of the other groups of researchers referred to in the conclusion? Did they concur with this group?
Will have a look when I have a few hours spare.
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Could you clarify where he stated that entire phrase in bold to the PJ?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9281.msg453195#msg453195 I don't know if he actually said that to the PJ specifically. Does he have to say it to the PJ?
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I'm confusing nothing... The dogs testing is not to scientific standards and that's part of the reason no inference can be drawn from the alerts. It doesn't really matter because the dogs real value is in finding actual evidence that can be used in court
You can't go and purchase an EVRD puppy from the pet shop. You have to train it from scratch. Some will be genius and others won't be able to do it. There will be a range of talents etc.
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So how do you explain this?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
snipped
In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in
petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.
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Specific reference to pork, the flesh of a pig.
Well can you prove to me that he purchased that pork from a butcher shop? Or was it a chunk of flesh from the hind leg of a piglet cadaver?
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So to conclude, on that basis, we are to believe that someone took a whole pig into that apartment and killed it. OK fair enough.
A decomposed piglet cadaver could have been present is one of the options that would have to be ruled out. Yes.
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Yes Alice we can say with certainty it wasn't the 'Jews' as claimed by some to be behind this blood line snatch match. and it wasn't Muslims or vegetarians OR vegans or Buddists OR..!!!.... that does narrow it down a bit.
Those religions could still own pigs though couldn't they? Just not eat them.
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Yeah , because as Davel says their 'training' would let them know not to take things at face value and would study and research... (&^& (&^& (&^&
They dismissed the findings for strange reasons. If my child was missing and I was told that dogs had highlighted a scent of a cadaver being in the apartment, IF I WAS INNOCENT, I would be distraught. but hey ho Gerry gives it the well I am a doctor you see attitude cool as a cucumber-and they are unreliable- go ask the dogs snigger snigger..
This is the same Gerry who believes his daughter was abducted by paedophile gang... yeah I know...
But Gerry wasn't as cool as a cucumber... Your logic is flawed
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Did Gerry ever cry?
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GRIME
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
An interesting quote. I have always assumed that properly trained canines could tell the difference but there you go.
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You can't go and purchase an EVRD puppy from the pet shop. You have to train it from scratch. Some will be genius and others won't be able to do it. There will be a range of talents etc.
Point well made, like most things in this world there will be the good and the bad and lots more in between.
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So to conclude, on that basis, we are to believe that someone took a whole pig into that apartment and killed it. OK fair enough.
Why a whole pig? We are told that Cadaver dogs can alert to the tiniest speck, or even to Cadaver odour that is there because of cross contamination.
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Why a whole pig? We are told that Cadaver dogs can alert to the tiniest speck, or even to Cadaver odour that is there because of cross contamination.
So we can add butchers , abbatoir workers and pig farmers to the list of possible professions of visitors to the Apartment that could have contaminated it with odour to which the dog alerted.
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So we can add butchers , abbatoir workers and pig farmers to the list of possible professions of visitors to the Apartment that could have contaminated it with odour to which the dog alerted.
This is, why the alerts themselves have no value... The dogs are trained to help in the, recovery of evidence... At least that's, what Grime says
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So we can add butchers , abbatoir workers and pig farmers to the list of possible professions of visitors to the Apartment that could have contaminated it with odour to which the dog alerted.
More myths generated...
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More myths generated...
Who would have thought old furniture could trigger an alert
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Who would have thought old furniture could trigger an alert
Fairly obvious really if some died on it...
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Fairly obvious really if some died on it...
Someone died on a chair... And sat there for two hours for the odour to develop.. And the, remnant scent lasted, 20 years..
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More myths generated...
which part is a myth?
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which part is a myth?
All of it unless you have a cite.
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All of it unless you have a cite.
the cite was Martin Grime saying dogs cannot distinguish between pig and human cadaver, posted earlier.
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All of it unless you have a cite.
The cite comes from the vague statement by Grime about other scenarios that could have caused the alert... It's, a shame he could not have been a little more precise but perhaps, there, are just too many
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So VS and I make a very similar post.... Another myth is born
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All of it unless you have a cite.
By far the biggest myth is, the one propagated on this forum that according to grime the alerts, were triggered by cadaver odour
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the cite was Martin Grime saying dogs cannot distinguish between pig and human cadaver, posted earlier.
So you think butchers, abattoir workers and pig farmers do a lot of work with decaying pig cadavers?
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So you think butchers, abattoir workers and pig farmers do a lot of work with decaying pig cadavers?
Decaying? Let me see, we are asked to believe that the recently deceased body of a little girl triggered those alerts, was hers a "decaying cadaver" in your view?
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So we can add butchers , abbatoir workers and pig farmers to the list of possible professions of visitors to the Apartment that could have contaminated it with odour to which the dog alerted.
Well if Cuddle Cat was contaminated from going to work with Kate then why not? If Kate's clothing was contaminated because she had been near cadavers at work 4 months prior to her holiday then why not.
I think you might need to include veterinarians in that list too.
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By far the biggest myth is, the one propagated on this forum that according to grime the alerts, were triggered by cadaver odour
Not the biggest, NO.
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Not the biggest, NO.
So what's, the biggest myth.. You have contradicted me.. Provide, a cite
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So you think butchers, abattoir workers and pig farmers do a lot of work with decaying pig cadavers?
We had a pig farm when I was a kid and dead pigs was a very common event. And how do you get rid of a dead pig? They were buried in the compost heap to decay. Cadaver odour everywhere.
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So what's, the biggest myth.. You have contradicted me.. Provide, a cite
I was thinking the biggest myth is that the cadaver odour came from Madeleine.
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I was thinking the biggest myth is that the cadaver odour came from Madeleine.
Yes I would agree..
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So you think butchers, abattoir workers and pig farmers do a lot of work with decaying pig cadavers?
Abbatoir worker's role can include any or all of the following:
Unloading, moving and controlling the animals when they are first brought to the abattoir.
Stunning the animals using electrical equipment or a mechanical device called a captive bolt stunner.
Humanely killing the animals, quickly, cleanly and painlessly while they are unconscious.
Moving the carcasses around the meat areas, without damaging the meat, and putting them on to a production line.
Washing and checking the carcasses for any signs of disease.
Removing some of the inedible parts of the carcass, such as the hooves.
Removing the skins of sheep and cattle, without damaging them.
Removing internal organs immediately after slaughter, and separating edible organs, such as livers, from the waste.
Using tools such as knives and saws to break up, split and de-bone carcasses.
Overseeing automated pig-processing equipment.
Working on an assembly line, especially in a poultry slaughter and processing site.
Cleaning floors, tools and equipment to high standards.
Packing the meat into cartons and processing by-products.
Loading the meat and meat products on to refrigerated lorries to be taken to retail outlets.
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Abbatoir worker's role can include any or all of the following:
Unloading, moving and controlling the animals when they are first brought to the abattoir.
Stunning the animals using electrical equipment or a mechanical device called a captive bolt stunner.
Humanely killing the animals, quickly, cleanly and painlessly while they are unconscious.
Moving the carcasses around the meat areas, without damaging the meat, and putting them on to a production line.
Washing and checking the carcasses for any signs of disease.
Removing some of the inedible parts of the carcass, such as the hooves.
Removing the skins of sheep and cattle, without damaging them.
Removing internal organs immediately after slaughter, and separating edible organs, such as livers, from the waste.
Using tools such as knives and saws to break up, split and de-bone carcasses.
Overseeing automated pig-processing equipment.
Working on an assembly line, especially in a poultry slaughter and processing site.
Cleaning floors, tools and equipment to high standards.
Packing the meat into cartons and processing by-products.
Loading the meat and meat products on to refrigerated lorries to be taken to retail outlets.
That list seems to focus on the nicer bits.
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Yet another coincidence. 5a was the only apartment that had previously housed either a butcher, abattoir worker or pig farmer.
My how those coincidences are stacking up.
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Yet another coincidence. 5a was the only apartment that had previously housed either a butcher, abattoir worker or pig farmer.
My how those coincidences are stacking up.
What are the other coincidences? I was only adding to the long-ish list of professions that could have come into contact with the source of cadaver contamination who might have been in apartment 5a before or after Madeleine disappeared, there's also doctor, surgeon, hospital porter, undertaker, policeman, fireman, paramedic, nurse, crematorium assistant, lab technician, vrd dog handler, etc etc.
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What are the other coincidences? I was only adding to the long-ish list of professions that could have come into contact with the source of cadaver contamination who might have been in apartment 5a before or after Madeleine disappeared, there's also doctor, surgeon, hospital porter, undertaker, policeman, fireman, paramedic, nurse, crematorium assistant, lab technician, vrd dog handler, etc etc.
Yet strangely none of the above seem to have been in any other apartment but 5a. Most odd.
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Yet strangely none of the above seem to have been in any other apartment but 5a. Most odd.
Well when you go on holiday you tend to just stay in the one apartment. Maybe that explains it.
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Well when you go on holiday you tend to just stay in the one apartment. Maybe that explains it.
So a coincidence then ? The only apartment that a child had disappeared from is the only apartment that had an individual who had come into contact with cadavers staying there ? Really ?
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So a coincidence then ? The only apartment that a child had disappeared from is the only apartment that had an individual who had come into contact with cadavers staying there ? Really ?
How many apartments were checked by the dog? Who spent a lot of time in that apartment after Madeleine went missing, more so than in any of the other apartments in the block? Who actually stayed in 5a after 3rd May? Police, we've been told, but I don't know if it was ever admitted officially.
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How many apartments were checked by the dog? Who spent a lot of time in that apartment after Madeleine went missing, more so than in any of the other apartments in the block? Who actually stayed in 5a after 3rd May? Police, we've been told, but I don't know if it was ever admitted officially.
But a coincidence nonetheless.
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So a coincidence then ? The only apartment that a child had disappeared from is the only apartment that had an individual who had come into contact with cadavers staying there ? Really ?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
snipped
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD
WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JUNE HUGHES
Occupation: Surgical Assistant
This statement, consisting of three pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 29 April 2008
Signature:
I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to this police.
On the 14th of April of 2007 my partner Carlo A'AMROSIO and I were on holiday in Praia da Luz, Portugal. We have booked a reservation with Thomas Cook and were to stay in the Mark Warner Ocean Club resort.
Carlo and I travelled to the Glasgow airport directly to Faro.
When we arrived at the resort, we were given apartment 5A. There were still cleaning personnel in there when we arrived. They allowed us to enter. We checked and realized that we had not been given a key to the apartment and Carlo went to the reception to collect one.
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Any chance this lady could have introduced cross-contamination into the wardrobe area of 5a?
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How many apartments were checked by the dog? Who spent a lot of time in that apartment after Madeleine went missing, more so than in any of the other apartments in the block? Who actually stayed in 5a after 3rd May? Police, we've been told, but I don't know if it was ever admitted officially.
What do you mean by "Who actually stayed in 5a after 3rd May? Police, we've been told, but I don't know if it was ever admitted officially."? AFAIK there were two families that had rented the apartment after the McCanns did.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
snipped
LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD
WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JUNE HUGHES
Occupation: Surgical Assistant
This statement, consisting of three pages, each signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have willfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 29 April 2008
Signature:
I am the above referenced person and live at the address previously given to this police.
On the 14th of April of 2007 my partner Carlo A'AMROSIO and I were on holiday in Praia da Luz, Portugal. We have booked a reservation with Thomas Cook and were to stay in the Mark Warner Ocean Club resort.
Carlo and I travelled to the Glasgow airport directly to Faro.
When we arrived at the resort, we were given apartment 5A. There were still cleaning personnel in there when we arrived. They allowed us to enter. We checked and realized that we had not been given a key to the apartment and Carlo went to the reception to collect one.
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Any chance this lady could have introduced cross-contamination into the wardrobe area of 5a?
So we have a surgical assistant. A surgical assistant helps the operating staff during an operation. Even if the patient on the operating table died it takes at least one and a half hours for cadaver odour to develop so why would they smell of cadaver ?
I really wish you supporters would make your minds up. Either Eddie’s alerts were correct but it was to a source other than Madeleine’s body or his alerts were wrong and there was no cadaver scent. It can’t be both.
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So we have a surgical assistant. A surgical assistant helps the operating staff during an operation. Even if the patient on the operating table died it takes at least one and a half hours for cadaver odour to develop so why would they smell of cadaver ?
I really wish you supporters would make your minds up. Either Eddie’s alerts were correct but it was to a source other than Madeleine’s body or his alerts were wrong and there was no cadaver scent. It can’t be both.
Do you think a surgical assistant never has to deal with decomposing tissue/necrosis which I'm guessing would cause a cadaver dog to alert? The job is not solely limited to theatre.
I don't think Eddie did alert to cadaver (my opinion only) but the occupancy of by a surgical assistant just a fortnight prior to the McCanns does introduce the possibility of cross-contamination.
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Do you think a surgical assistant never has to deal with decomposing tissue/necrosis which I'm guessing would cause a cadaver dog to alert? The job is not solely limited to theatre.
I don't think Eddie did alert to cadaver (my opinion only) but the occupancy of by a surgical assistant just a fortnight prior to the McCanns does introduce the possibility of cross-contamination.
A surgical assistant would not deal with tissue that had decomposed enough to contaminate them with cadaver scent. But as you say, you’re only guessing.
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A surgical assistant would not deal with tissue that had decomposed enough to contaminate them with cadaver scent. But as you say, you’re only guessing.
If said tissue was stuck to her shoe, it would gradually decompose, maybe later come into contact with a floor or wardrobe shelf. Cadaver dogs alert to teeth - how does that work?
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html
By Martin Evans, Crime Correspondent2:01PM GMT 03 Feb 2016
Forensic scientists should be allowed to use body parts left over from operations to help train dogs search for human remains, a leading academic has suggested.
Under the controversial proposal, patients who undergo medical procedures, such as amputations and hip replacements, would be permitted to voluntarily donate left over tissue to a so called ‘body farm’.
Scientists and dog handlers would then be able to recreate the conditions in which a dead body might be dumped in order to better understand how corpses decompose.
At the moment, cadaver dogs, which are a vital tool in helping the police locate dead bodies, are trained using pig carcasses.
But forensic specialists believe their success would be much improved if they were able to train using human tissue.............cont
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There is one profession that was, all over 5a... And the hire car... The police... Who visit mortuaries
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But a coincidence nonetheless.
It's no coincidence that many (dozens?) of individuals who had potentially previously come into contact with cadavers and / or their odour during the course of their jobs, spent a lot of time in that apartment, more so than any other in the weeks since May 3rd.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12061882/Body-parts-left-over-from-operations-should-be-used-to-help-train-police-dogs.html
By Martin Evans, Crime Correspondent2:01PM GMT 03 Feb 2016
Forensic scientists should be allowed to use body parts left over from operations to help train dogs search for human remains, a leading academic has suggested.
Under the controversial proposal, patients who undergo medical procedures, such as amputations and hip replacements, would be permitted to voluntarily donate left over tissue to a so called ‘body farm’.
Scientists and dog handlers would then be able to recreate the conditions in which a dead body might be dumped in order to better understand how corpses decompose.
At the moment, cadaver dogs, which are a vital tool in helping the police locate dead bodies, are trained using pig carcasses.
But forensic specialists believe their success would be much improved if they were able to train using human tissue.............cont
Sorry Misty but do you really think a surgical assistant wears the same shoes in the theatre as they do on holiday ? Really ?
The tissue would be decomposed, not fresh from a body in the way you are suggesting.
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It's no coincidence that many (dozens?) of individuals who had potentially previously come into contact with cadavers and / or their odour during the course of their jobs, spent a lot of time in that apartment, more so than any other in the weeks since May 3rd.
So why 5a and not any other apartment?
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So why 5a and not any other apartment?
It might seem like that as described by Vertigo Swirl but there was no investigation before and after in the other apartments so we really have no way of comparing 5A to the other apartments.
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There is one profession that was, all over 5a... And the hire car... The police... Who visit mortuaries
Yes! indeed! and those same officers searched Murats house and land... awww nothing- no cadaver scent. bummer that.
So the whole familiy were stinking of dead pig blood? what about those who went into the apartment to'search for maddie' Did this scnet rub off on them as well? it must have or it would have been a great coincidence if it didn't.
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Yes! indeed! and those same officers searched Murats house and land... awww nothing- no cadaver scent. bummer that.
So the whole familiy were stinking of dead pig blood? what about those who went into the apartment to'search for maddie' Did this scnet rub off on them as well? it must have or it would have been a great coincidence if it didn't.
Was there, a, forensic exam of murats house
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Was there, a, forensic exam of murats house
I don't know, I do know the dogs were in the house and on the grounds.. no scent...
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I don't know, I do know the dogs were in the house and on the grounds.. no scent...
Then you have totally missed the point I raise but it doesn't matter
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Then you have totally missed the point I raise but it doesn't matter
I’m interested in the point you are are making. Please expand ?
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I’m interested in the point you are are making. Please expand ?
The pj forensic team we're all over only 5a and the mccanns car... They have a poor record on cross contamination... No white suits etc. If one of then had visited a mortuary are another case cross contamination could be a real possibility
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The pj forensic team we're all over only 5a and the mccanns car... They have a poor record on cross contamination... No white suits etc. If one of then had visited a mortuary are another case cross contamination could be a real possibility
Is there anything to suggest any forensic team inspected the car prior to the dog alerts?
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Is there anything to suggest any forensic team inspected the car prior to the dog alerts?
The car was driven by the pj before the alerts
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The pj forensic team we're all over only 5a and the mccanns car... They have a poor record on cross contamination... No white suits etc. If one of then had visited a mortuary are another case cross contamination could be a real possibility
The same team visited Murat’s villa plus the McCann’s friend’s apartments. Why no alerts in those places ?
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The same team visited Murat’s villa plus the McCann’s friend’s apartments. Why no alerts in those places ?
Do you have, a cite to support that claim. How many pj we're in 5a, and how many in the other villas
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Do you have, a cite to support that claim
There were no alerts in any other apartment. That is a fact.
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There were no alerts in any other apartment. That is a fact.
I've explained the probable reason why several times... Let's have a cite for the, same team in murats, and the other villas
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The same team visited Murat’s villa plus the McCann’s friend’s apartments. Why no alerts in those places ?
So no cite for the same team.
The digs did not alert initially in 5a according to the pj ...same as in the other, apartments... As regards the car the dog ignored that too until being called back
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The car was driven by the pj before the alerts
So - a forensic inspection prior to the dog alerts, or not.
8((()*/
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So - a forensic inspection prior to the dog alerts, or not.
8((()*/
No but the car was driven by at least one or more pj officers prior to the inspection... There, was no real cadaver, alert to the car... as both dogs alerted and blood was found on the key fob... So my argument of possible contamination stands
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Processos Vol XII
Pages 3229 – 3241
Report of Forensic Examination
Requested by : Portimao DIC
Date 10 August 2007
Examination Initiated on 6 August 2007
REQUEST
The report of the examination of the vehicle, make Renault, model Scenic, of grey metallic colour with number plate 59-DA-27 which is parked in the underground car park, floor 4, Largo 1 de Maio opposite Portimao Municipal Chambers is requested.
OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES CARRIED OUT
On 6th August 2007 at about 15.30 a team from the Crime Scene Sector of the Scientific Police, composed of those signed below, upon the request of the PJ Portimao DIC went to an underground car park opposite the Portimao Municipal Chambers with the aim of collecting forensic vestiges from the Renault Scenic vehicle, number plate 59-DA-27.
In accordance with the request officers from Portimao DIC present at the scene the undersigned should proceed to the search and gathering of eventual biological vestiges and fibres from the vehicle in reference.
Those undersigned were also asked to enter into contact with a scientific advisor of English nationality, Jonathan Smith so that he could indicate the manner in which to proceed to gather the stains in question.
This contact informed the undersigned that in a first phase they should proceed to search and gather hairs, followed by fibres and subsequently eventual blood vestiges. During the search for these vestiges and alternating source of light should be used and the Kastle-Mayer test, the eventual blood vestiges should be collected by means of two swabs for each stain, the kind of swabs usually used by teams from this sector, the gathering should be made by the direct application of the swab on the stain and another should be gathered using a second swab moistened with distilled water.
Finally, and after the examination conducted by this team a canine from the British police should be placed inside the vehicle, specialised in detecting human blood vestiges. But he informed that if the animal in question indicated the presence of eventual human blood vestiges inside the vehicle, the components of the areas indicated should be gathered and sent for laboratory analysis.
If, after the presence of the animal inside the vehicle, no eventual blood vestiges were found the chemical product Luminol should be used and if the results continued to be negative, the vehicle should be completely dismantles and analysed piece by piece.
Observation of the outside of the car was initiated, no relevant forensic vestiges being detected for carrying out the examination in reference. The following are photos of the outside of the vehicle and its number plate.
Photos 1 – 3 Front and back of the vehicle subject to examination and detail of the number plate:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/ ... e_3231.jpg
Page 3232
Photos 4 – 7. Left and right sides of the Vehicle in question and detail of some posters and stickers on the windows.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3232.jpg
The examination of the interior of the vehicle was initiated, register was also taken of the kilometres clocked – 9329 km.
Photos 8 – 10 Front right left interiors of car and detail of kilometres clocked up.
Page 3233
Photos 11 – 13 Back left and right interiors of vehicle and the luggage compartment where there two more seats with baby chairs.
Photos 14 – 16 Shot of the inside of the luggage boot of the vehicle and detail of the inside
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3233.jpg
Page 3234
Photos 17 – 19 Detail of various materials that were in the boot of the vehicle and two baby seats that were in the luggage compartment.
Observation and location of vestiges was made by means of using the techniques of direct observation and an LW Gold Panther Forensic Light Source Kit with white light and various complementary features appropriate for the purpose.
During the first phase search and collection of hairs was carried out using tweezers appropriate and conditioned for the purpose in paper wrapping. The following vestiges resulted from this search:
1A. Head hair collected from the driver’s seat.
2A. Head hair collected to the right of passenger’s seat.
2B. Head hair collected from the floor next to the right front passenger’s seat.
3. Head hair collected between the front seats.
4A. Head hair collected from the left area of the back seat.
5A. Head hair collected from the middle area of the back seat.
6A. Head hair collected from the right area of the back seat.
7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3234.JPG
Page 3235
8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area.
9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.
Also collected from this search:
1D. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
2E. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
Subsequently, fibres were collected using plastic stickers appropriate for this type of collection (hairs could also have been collected together with the fibres).
1B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the driver’s seat.
1C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the driver’s seat.
2C. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right front passenger’s seat.
2D. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right front passenger’s seat.
4B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the left area of the back seat.
4C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
5B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the middle area of the back seat.
5C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the middle area of the back seat.
6B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the right area of the back seat.
6C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the right area of the back seat.
7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area.
7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3235.jpg
Page 3236
8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.
13. Pattern sample of the fabric covering the vehicle seats.
Finally, a minutely detailed search was made for eventual blood vestiges and any other biological vestiges in the interior of the vehicle.
From the observations made inside the vehicle several areas were detected containing stains that appeared to be of haematic origin, they were subjected to tests looking for peroxide existing in blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, all of them reacted negatively.
A general search was also made looking for blood vestiges from more expectable parts of the interior of the vehicle (the jack, accelerator pedal, hand break, door handles, car key, vehicles controls etc) which underwent the same test looking for peroxide by the Kastle-Mayer test, all reacted negatively.
No blood or biological vestiges were found in this test.
Photos 20-21 Shots of the from interior of the car where vestiges n 1 – 3 were collected from.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3236.jpg
Page 3237
Photos 22 – 23 Shot of the back seats of the vehicle where vestiges 4 and 6 were taken from.
Photos 24 and 25 Shots of the interior of the luggage compartment where vestiges 7 9 were taken from.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3237.jpg
Page 3238
Photo 26: Shot of the mat from the luggage compartment where vestige number 11 was taken from.
After the examination of the vehicle was complete the human blood specialist sniffer dog was introduced along with Martin Grime of the British police who coordinated the dog’s movements. After a few moments Mr Grime informed the team that they should collect the key and other materials from zone M or from the interior of the luggage compartment given the fact that the dog in reference had identified these materials as places where eventual blood vestiges existed. The undersigned gathered these materials placing them in paper envelopes with the following references:
10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
12. Vehicle ignition key.
Photos 27 and 28: Detail of the part of the luggage compartment alerted to by the sniffer dog.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3238.jpg
Page 3239
Photos 29- 30: Detail of materials referred to as vestige 10 taken from the area marked by the sniffer dog and sent for analysis.
Photo 31: Detail of the key referred to as vestige n 12.
CONCLUSION
In the examination carried out on the vehicle Renault Scenic number plate 59-DA-27 parked in the underground car park opposite the Portimao Municipal Chambers the following vestiges were referenced and collected:
1A. Head hair collected from the driver’s seat.
1B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the driver’s seat.
1C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the driver’s seat.
1D. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
2A. Head hair collected to the right of passenger’s seat.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3239.JPG
Page 3240
2B. Head hair collected from the floor next to the right front passenger’s seat.
2C. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right front passenger’s seat.
2D. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right front passenger’s seat.
2E. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
3. Head hair collected between the front seats.
4A. Head hair collected from the left area of the back seat.
4B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the left area of the back seat.
4C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
5A. Head hair collected from the middle area of the back seat.
5B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the middle area of the back seat.
5C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the middle area of the back seat.
6A. Head hair collected from the right area of the back seat.
6B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the right area of the back seat.
6C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the right area of the back seat.
7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.
7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area.
7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area
8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.
10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3240.jpg
Page 3241
12. Vehicle ignition key.
13. Pattern sample of the fabric covering the vehicle seats.
Finally, two swabs were taken from Assistant Specialist Vilhena as well as fibre from his clothes given that he had driven the vehicle to the car park, these have the reference numbers vestiges 14 and 15.
According to the request from Portimao DIC the material referenced from 1 – 15 was delivered to the FSS laboratories in Birmingham with delivery guide 286/C – CR/L for subsequent laboratory analysis.
Lisbon 27 September 2007
Signed
Fernando Viegas Um Henriques
Forensics specialists
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Processos Vol XII
Pages 3229 – 3241
Report of Forensic Examination
Requested by : Portimao DIC
Date 10 August 2007
Examination Initiated on 6 August 2007
REQUEST
The report of the examination of the vehicle, make Renault, model Scenic, of grey metallic colour with number plate 59-DA-27 which is parked in the underground car park, floor 4, Largo 1 de Maio opposite Portimao Municipal Chambers is requested.
OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES CARRIED OUT
On 6th August 2007 at about 15.30 a team from the Crime Scene Sector of the Scientific Police, composed of those signed below, upon the request of the PJ Portimao DIC went to an underground car park opposite the Portimao Municipal Chambers with the aim of collecting forensic vestiges from the Renault Scenic vehicle, number plate 59-DA-27.
In accordance with the request officers from Portimao DIC present at the scene the undersigned should proceed to the search and gathering of eventual biological vestiges and fibres from the vehicle in reference.
Those undersigned were also asked to enter into contact with a scientific advisor of English nationality, Jonathan Smith so that he could indicate the manner in which to proceed to gather the stains in question.
This contact informed the undersigned that in a first phase they should proceed to search and gather hairs, followed by fibres and subsequently eventual blood vestiges. During the search for these vestiges and alternating source of light should be used and the Kastle-Mayer test, the eventual blood vestiges should be collected by means of two swabs for each stain, the kind of swabs usually used by teams from this sector, the gathering should be made by the direct application of the swab on the stain and another should be gathered using a second swab moistened with distilled water.
Finally, and after the examination conducted by this team a canine from the British police should be placed inside the vehicle, specialised in detecting human blood vestiges. But he informed that if the animal in question indicated the presence of eventual human blood vestiges inside the vehicle, the components of the areas indicated should be gathered and sent for laboratory analysis.
If, after the presence of the animal inside the vehicle, no eventual blood vestiges were found the chemical product Luminol should be used and if the results continued to be negative, the vehicle should be completely dismantles and analysed piece by piece.
Observation of the outside of the car was initiated, no relevant forensic vestiges being detected for carrying out the examination in reference. The following are photos of the outside of the vehicle and its number plate.
Photos 1 – 3 Front and back of the vehicle subject to examination and detail of the number plate:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/ ... e_3231.jpg
Page 3232
Photos 4 – 7. Left and right sides of the Vehicle in question and detail of some posters and stickers on the windows.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3232.jpg
The examination of the interior of the vehicle was initiated, register was also taken of the kilometres clocked – 9329 km.
Photos 8 – 10 Front right left interiors of car and detail of kilometres clocked up.
Page 3233
Photos 11 – 13 Back left and right interiors of vehicle and the luggage compartment where there two more seats with baby chairs.
Photos 14 – 16 Shot of the inside of the luggage boot of the vehicle and detail of the inside
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3233.jpg
Page 3234
Photos 17 – 19 Detail of various materials that were in the boot of the vehicle and two baby seats that were in the luggage compartment.
Observation and location of vestiges was made by means of using the techniques of direct observation and an LW Gold Panther Forensic Light Source Kit with white light and various complementary features appropriate for the purpose.
During the first phase search and collection of hairs was carried out using tweezers appropriate and conditioned for the purpose in paper wrapping. The following vestiges resulted from this search:
1A. Head hair collected from the driver’s seat.
2A. Head hair collected to the right of passenger’s seat.
2B. Head hair collected from the floor next to the right front passenger’s seat.
3. Head hair collected between the front seats.
4A. Head hair collected from the left area of the back seat.
5A. Head hair collected from the middle area of the back seat.
6A. Head hair collected from the right area of the back seat.
7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3234.JPG
Page 3235
8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area.
9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.
Also collected from this search:
1D. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
2E. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
Subsequently, fibres were collected using plastic stickers appropriate for this type of collection (hairs could also have been collected together with the fibres).
1B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the driver’s seat.
1C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the driver’s seat.
2C. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right front passenger’s seat.
2D. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right front passenger’s seat.
4B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the left area of the back seat.
4C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
5B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the middle area of the back seat.
5C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the middle area of the back seat.
6B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the right area of the back seat.
6C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the right area of the back seat.
7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area.
7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3235.jpg
Page 3236
8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.
13. Pattern sample of the fabric covering the vehicle seats.
Finally, a minutely detailed search was made for eventual blood vestiges and any other biological vestiges in the interior of the vehicle.
From the observations made inside the vehicle several areas were detected containing stains that appeared to be of haematic origin, they were subjected to tests looking for peroxide existing in blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, all of them reacted negatively.
A general search was also made looking for blood vestiges from more expectable parts of the interior of the vehicle (the jack, accelerator pedal, hand break, door handles, car key, vehicles controls etc) which underwent the same test looking for peroxide by the Kastle-Mayer test, all reacted negatively.
No blood or biological vestiges were found in this test.
Photos 20-21 Shots of the from interior of the car where vestiges n 1 – 3 were collected from.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3236.jpg
Page 3237
Photos 22 – 23 Shot of the back seats of the vehicle where vestiges 4 and 6 were taken from.
Photos 24 and 25 Shots of the interior of the luggage compartment where vestiges 7 9 were taken from.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3237.jpg
Page 3238
Photo 26: Shot of the mat from the luggage compartment where vestige number 11 was taken from.
After the examination of the vehicle was complete the human blood specialist sniffer dog was introduced along with Martin Grime of the British police who coordinated the dog’s movements. After a few moments Mr Grime informed the team that they should collect the key and other materials from zone M or from the interior of the luggage compartment given the fact that the dog in reference had identified these materials as places where eventual blood vestiges existed. The undersigned gathered these materials placing them in paper envelopes with the following references:
10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
12. Vehicle ignition key.
Photos 27 and 28: Detail of the part of the luggage compartment alerted to by the sniffer dog.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3238.jpg
Page 3239
Photos 29- 30: Detail of materials referred to as vestige 10 taken from the area marked by the sniffer dog and sent for analysis.
Photo 31: Detail of the key referred to as vestige n 12.
CONCLUSION
In the examination carried out on the vehicle Renault Scenic number plate 59-DA-27 parked in the underground car park opposite the Portimao Municipal Chambers the following vestiges were referenced and collected:
1A. Head hair collected from the driver’s seat.
1B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the driver’s seat.
1C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the driver’s seat.
1D. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
2A. Head hair collected to the right of passenger’s seat.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3239.JPG
Page 3240
2B. Head hair collected from the floor next to the right front passenger’s seat.
2C. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right front passenger’s seat.
2D. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right front passenger’s seat.
2E. Nail fragment collected in the floor in front of the driver’s seat.
3. Head hair collected between the front seats.
4A. Head hair collected from the left area of the back seat.
4B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the left area of the back seat.
4C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
5A. Head hair collected from the middle area of the back seat.
5B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the middle area of the back seat.
5C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the middle area of the back seat.
6A. Head hair collected from the right area of the back seat.
6B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back in the right area of the back seat.
6C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the right area of the back seat.
7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.
7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area.
7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat.
8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area
8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.
9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.
10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_V ... e_3240.jpg
Page 3241
12. Vehicle ignition key.
13. Pattern sample of the fabric covering the vehicle seats.
Finally, two swabs were taken from Assistant Specialist Vilhena as well as fibre from his clothes given that he had driven the vehicle to the car park, these have the reference numbers vestiges 14 and 15.
According to the request from Portimao DIC the material referenced from 1 – 15 was delivered to the FSS laboratories in Birmingham with delivery guide 286/C – CR/L for subsequent laboratory analysis.
Lisbon 27 September 2007
Signed
Fernando Viegas Um Henriques
Forensics specialists
Therefore it was a pretty thorough forensic examination which doesn't seem to have missed much. With Martin Grime on hand to identify what had captured the dog interest within the vehicle ... which as we subsequently know had nothing at all to do with Madeleine.
In her book 'MADELEINE' Kate defined the despair and contempt she felt as Paiva stopped and started the video showing the search and Gerry's ignored request to have sight of the forensic results during their separate interviews.
In my opinion they did indeed acknowledge the impossibility of outcomes they knew as innocents just had not happened ... and that the narrative presented to the world and to them had no forensic evidence to back it up.
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So why 5a and not any other apartment?
the answer is in my post.
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the answer is in my post.
Your answer does not explain why only 5a was contaminated and not any of the other friend’s apartment.
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Perhaps someone could explain why it is highly unlikely that Apartment 5a was contaminated with cadaver odour from a human (other than the missing child) or a pig at any point up to August 2007?
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Your answer does not explain why only 5a was contaminated and not any of the other friend’s apartment.
yes it does. Apartment 5 a received far more attention from police and forensic teams that the other apartments, therefore more personnel for longer and more opportunity for cross contamination.
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Your answer does not explain why only 5a was contaminated and not any of the other friend’s apartment.
There was more time spent in 5a and places the dogs initially ignored... They eventually alerted to... As in cuddle cat
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Processos Vol XII
Pages 3229 – 3241
Report of Forensic Examination
Requested by : Portimao DIC
Date 10 August 2007
Examination Initiated on 6 August 2007
snip
Many thanks, Byron, for digging that out.
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yes it does. Apartment 5 a received far more attention from police and forensic teams that the other apartments, therefore more personnel for longer and more opportunity for cross contamination.
Yes and no trace of an intruder was found...NOT because of bad forensics, but because none could be found... plenty of the parents and tapas would be there though-naturarily.
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Yes and no trace of an intruder was found...NOT because of bad forensics, but because none could be found... plenty of the parents and tapas would be there though-naturarily.
The bedclothes were sent to the laundry.. That's not bad forensics it's pathetic forensics
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The bedclothes were sent to the laundry.. That's not bad forensics it's pathetic forensics
Kate did a washing and washed cuddle cat....so.... there were other forensics which could have been found. NONE were found.
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Kate did a washing and washed cuddle cat....so.... there were other forensics which could have been found. NONE were found.
To be of any value forensically in my opinion Cuddle Cat should have been bagged and entered into evidence on the night Madeleine disappeared. It wasn't.
I'm afraid its forensic value seventy odd days down the line ... which is when it was washed ... would have been severely compromised and would very probably have been zilch.
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Yes and no trace of an intruder was found...NOT because of bad forensics, but because none could be found... plenty of the parents and tapas would be there though-naturarily.
This thread is about cadaver odour alerts, not evidence supporting abduction (though I do believe an unidentified print was found).
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This thread is about cadaver odour alerts, not evidence supporting abduction (though I do believe an unidentified print was found).
Are you ruling out the fact that Maddie could have died and was removed thus leaving a cadaver scent?
The 'abductor' person who removed her from the apartment could have killed her...Just saying it is possible.
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Are you ruling out the fact that Maddie could have died and was removed thus leaving a cadaver scent?
The 'abductor' person who removed her from the apartment could have killed her...Just saying it is possible.
I don't see how that scenario is possible tbh, given the length of time necessary for a corpse to be in situ before contaminating the environs. 90 minutes seems to be the bare minimum so...
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I don't see how that scenario is possible tbh, given the length of time necessary for a corpse to be in situ before contaminating the environs. 90 minutes seems to be the bare minimum so...
A death occurring at anytime is a possibility. The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
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yes it does. Apartment 5 a received far more attention from police and forensic teams that the other apartments, therefore more personnel for longer and more opportunity for cross contamination.
Being new I will give you the benefit of the doubt but Grime explained all this. Eddie showed an immediate interest in 5a but did not display the same eagerness in any of the other apartments. Thus why a full examination took place at 5a whereas only a cursory examination took place in the other apartments.
What isn't in doubt is that a cadaver dog alerted to objects in 5a.
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Being new I will give you the benefit of the doubt but Grime explained all this. Eddie showed an immediate interest in 5a but did not display the same eagerness in any of the other apartments. Thus why a full examination took place at 5a whereas only a cursory examination took place in the other apartments.
What isn't in doubt is that a cadaver dog alerted to objects in 5a.
that wasn't my point at all, I meant that the apartment received more attention from police and forensic teams PRIOR to the dog searches, because it was the crime scene / centre of the investigation.
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Being new I will give you the benefit of the doubt but Grime explained all this. Eddie showed an immediate interest in 5a but did not display the same eagerness in any of the other apartments. Thus why a full examination took place at 5a whereas only a cursory examination took place in the other apartments.
What isn't in doubt is that a cadaver dog alerted to objects in 5a.
Eddie was very interested in what was under a bed in 5D - yet apparently that wasn't classed as eagerness. Why wasn't he afforded more time in 5D instead of constantly being called away from objects by Grime?
https://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=2608
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Are you ruling out the fact that Maddie could have died and was removed thus leaving a cadaver scent?
The 'abductor' person who removed her from the apartment could have killed her...Just saying it is possible.
to leave traces of cadaver odour detectable 3 months later suggests to me more that the minimum production time.
I have read about studies showing how early cadaver odour is detectable but then to delay the detection process has not done AFAIK.
IMO you would need prolonged contact with a cadaver several days old to be able to detect it 3 months later on a clean surface.
In my work I used to be in contact with cadavers and the odour would get into your skin. I would be able to notice it as my nose was aware of the odour even after repeated washing. It would take weeks to disappear entirely.
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A death occurring at anytime is a possibility. The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
The question has been all along would Kate and Gerry allow Matt to do a check if they knew Madeleine was deceased in the apartment? It is a very difficult question to answer actually. It seems beyond normal human behaviour.
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The question has been all along would Kate and Gerry allow Matt to do a check if they knew Madeleine was deceased in the apartment? It is a very difficult question to answer actually. It seems beyond normal human behaviour.
There are those who would argue that Matt was meant to find her missing, after she'd been removed from the apartment by Gerry during his 9.05 check.
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There are those who would argue that Matt was meant to find her missing, after she'd been removed from the apartment by Gerry during his 9.05 check.
Eeeeek!
Are you allowed to say that?
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There are those who would argue that Matt was meant to find her missing, after she'd been removed from the apartment by Gerry during his 9.05 check.
He can't have been aware of that scheme then or did he chicken out? So if Kate didn't go then she went later.
Had Matt done the job properly was the window already opened at that time for Matt? Was the shutter open at 9:30? Takes a bit a pressure off Kate then doesn't it. So did these people suggesting this say Gerry opened the window and shutters not Kate?
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Eeeeek!
Are you allowed to say that?
Even Gerry said he doesn't mind people having theories. It is just another weird theory IMO. GA got away with saying worse things than that IMO.
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Even Gerry said he doesn't mind people having theories. It is just another weird theory IMO.
No, it has a lot of facts and 'facts' that can be cross-checked.
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No, it has a lot of facts and 'facts' that can be cross-checked.
Can you list any (I'm not asking for cites just things off the top of your head)?
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He can't have been aware of that scheme then or did he chicken out? So if Kate didn't go then she went later.
Had Matt done the job properly was the window already opened at that time for Matt? Was the shutter open at 9:30? Takes a bit a pressure off Kate then doesn't it. So did these people suggesting this say Gerry opened the window and shutters not Kate?
IMO MO was neither aware of or was used as part of any scheme. It would, however, suit the thinking in certain quarters that Matt was either complicit or set up to deflect attention had he been the one to discover Madeleine missing - which I believe she actually was at the time of his check.
All IMO.
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IMO MO was neither aware of or was used as part of any scheme. It would, however, suit the thinking in certain quarters that Matt was either complicit or set up to deflect attention had he been the one to discover Madeleine missing - which I believe she actually was at the time of his check.
All IMO.
Well I salute you Misty for having the courage to say what your theory is in part. I'd really like you to start a thread and blast us with your theory, for you have done a lot of research. Have you ever done that before? Have you ever presented your theory in full? A theory is not libel for its only a theory.
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Can you list any (I'm not asking for cites just things off the top of your head)?
It would require that Matthew's offer to check in 5A was in some way predictable. That in turn would imply that the stated checking regime for the week was not what was actually happening.
Otherwise known as a can of worms.
Hence my eeeeeeek!
As I expect this part of the thread to hit the bin before morning rises in the UK, I won't be expending any more energy on it tonight.
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The question has been all along would Kate and Gerry allow Matt to do a check if they knew Madeleine was deceased in the apartment? It is a very difficult question to answer actually. It seems beyond normal human behaviour.
I don't believe she was inside the apartment when Matt checked. The contradiction on which door was used clearly stands out.
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Well I salute you Misty for having the courage to say what your theory is in part. I'd really like you to start a thread and blast us with your theory, for you have done a lot of research. Have you ever done that before? Have you ever presented your theory in full? A theory is not libel for its only a theory.
Can't do that, Rob as data is incomplete & I would risk libelling people.
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It would require that Matthew's offer to check in 5A was in some way predictable. That in turn would imply that the stated checking regime for the week was not what was actually happening.
Otherwise known as a can of worms.
Hence my eeeeeeek!
As I expect this part of the thread to hit the bin before morning rises in the UK, I won't be expending any more energy on it tonight.
I don't see why it should. I have found the exploration of other people's theories educational and it helps us understand where other members are coming from. In the end someone may put up an issue which is like a "fatal error" to Misty's theory and she can move on to some other line of inquiry.
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Can't do that, Rob as data is incomplete & I would risk libelling people.
So do you keep looking for that data? I have found if you set up a thread with the intention of looking for that data sometimes you will get it.
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Can't do that, Rob as data is incomplete & I would risk libelling people.
Could you do it in the hidden part as PF did?
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Could you do it in the hidden part as PF did?
No, because that area is not secure from the enemy within.
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Being new I will give you the benefit of the doubt but Grime explained all this. Eddie showed an immediate interest in 5a but did not display the same eagerness in any of the other apartments. Thus why a full examination took place at 5a whereas only a cursory examination took place in the other apartments.
What isn't in doubt is that a cadaver dog alerted to objects in 5a.
This is, the same Martin grime who said Eddie alerted to cuddle cat... Which I find ridiculous
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No, because that area is not secure from the enemy within.
Think I will save that one.
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No, because that area is not secure from the enemy within.
Its not that bad here is it?
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No, because that area is not secure from the enemy within.
Interesting that you see people as 'the enemy' Almost as if it's something personal.
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Think I will save that one.
Check it out with SIL who likewise does not post sensitive information there ... and ask what his reason is for not doing so.
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Check it out with SIL who likewise does not post sensitive information there ... and ask what his reason is for not doing so.
I understand the reasons thank you.
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I understand the reasons thank you.
Then why scorn a member's post for expressing the reasons you purport to understand and for which there is precedence ~ of which we all appear to be aware?
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Then why scorn a member's post for expressing the reasons you purport to understand and for which there is precedence ~ of which we all appear to be aware?
Please cite scorn?
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Interesting that you see people as 'the enemy' Almost as if it's something personal.
It's nothing personal - do you know the identities of all the "lurkers" who don't post but have access to the members' area? One member here has already had their comments in that section posted on another forum, another has discussed the contents of pm's openly on another forum. I've no intention of becoming a victim of the same circumstance.
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It's nothing personal - do you know the identities of all the "lurkers" who don't post but have access to the members' area? One member here has already had their comments in that section posted on another forum, another has discussed the contents of pm's openly on another forum. I've no intention of becoming a victim of the same circumstance.
It was your use of the word enemy that intrigued me. I see people on these forums as either friends or opponents, but never enemies. I generally only use the open sections so don't mind who sees or discusses what I post, though I to keep my identity to myself, so much so that I 'borrowed' my username from another internet user.
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It's nothing personal - do you know the identities of all the "lurkers" who don't post but have access to the members' area? One member here has already had their comments in that section posted on another forum, another has discussed the contents of pm's openly on another forum. I've no intention of becoming a victim of the same circumstance.
Very wise but:
Since even before 3rd May 2007 anyone who posted personal information anywhere on the 'net needed their bumps felt imo.
But don't worry about arcane little corners like this. Worry about what is happening to information and photos of you and your family, that you did not know existed, via the defunct Friends Reunited, Facebook and so on.
I am astonished at the number of folk who seem to think 3rd May 2007 was a watershed moment wake up call or whatever jargon word you care to dream up. Only one person ever gives away a secret.
Yours Faithfully
O. w..ble
Wimbledon
SW19
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It's nothing personal - do you know the identities of all the "lurkers" who don't post but have access to the members' area? One member here has already had their comments in that section posted on another forum, another has discussed the contents of pm's openly on another forum. I've no intention of becoming a victim of the same circumstance.
If this is true, then the site administrator can be fined for not protecting personal identifiable information...emails etc. New data protection act coming your way soon.
rules to stay anonymous
get a VPN.-use a proxy
never buy anything online
never use your own name for anything
You are being watched and spied on 24/7
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It was your use of the word enemy that intrigued me. I see people on these forums as either friends or opponents, but never enemies. I generally only use the open sections so don't mind who sees or discusses what I post, though I to keep my identity to myself, so much so that I 'borrowed' my username from another internet user.
Well this is the best forum discussing the case so it is possible the perpetrators are members (lurkers) who read to see if anyone knows how close OG is getting onto them. It definitely is possible.
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Buy a cave and go fishing.
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Well this is the best forum discussing the case so it is possible the perpetrators are members (lurkers) who read to see if anyone knows how close OG is getting onto them. It definitely is possible.
If that's the case, then they are certainly wasting their time.
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If that's the case, then they are certainly wasting their time.
Well I'm surprised by that comment. There is more information on here than there is coming out of the PJ or OG at present.
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Well I'm surprised by that comment. There is more information on here than there is coming out of the PJ or OG at present.
But at the end of the day stuff coming out of here is mostly only opinion and pretty biased at that.
Any perpetrator isn't going to be in the slightest bit interested in all the alleged faults of the original investigation, for example.
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If this is true, then the site administrator can be fined for not protecting personal identifiable information...emails etc. New data protection act coming your way soon.
rules to stay anonymous
get a VPN.-use a proxy
never buy anything online
never use your own name for anything
You are being watched and spied on 24/7
You misunderstand me. I am concerned about being seen to discuss personal information of others involved in some way with this case - nothing to do with my own personal internet security (I happily shop online & have done for years + have never felt the need to use a proxy server).
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A death occurring at anytime is a possibility. The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
You are implying deception on the part of the McCanns with that post - is this permitted?
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You are implying deception on the part of the McCanns with that post - is this permitted?
Death at anytime is possible - fact.
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Death at anytime is possible - fact.
to imply that the mccanns covered up maddies death is libellous..
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to imply that the mccanns covered up maddies death is libellous..
I don't see the word cover up do you? "The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes."
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I don't see the word cover up do you? "The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes."
Are you suggesting that it's possible Madeleine died three hours before the McCanns left the apartment without either of them noticing?
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Are you suggesting that it's possible Madeleine died three hours before the McCanns left the apartment without either of them noticing?
It appears to be you suggesting that.
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It appears to be you suggesting that.
what gives you that impression?
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Are you suggesting that it's possible Madeleine died three hours before the McCanns left the apartment without either of them noticing?
That is certainly what the PJ were left thinking too. The PJ must have been thinking the McCanns were not telling the truth, but in the end there was no proof of anything. Did they accept the McCann's version at that stage or not?
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Sometimes we see something that can't be confirmed or explained. Of the various possible explanations one of them has to be the possibility of deception by someone.
DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL telling Ricardo Paive what David Payne said in his questionnaire;
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry.
In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
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Stating facts is never libellous, expressing negative assumptions which are based on those facts but not supported by evidence whether you believe them or not is libellous.
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Sometimes we see something that can't be confirmed or explained. Of the various possible explanations one of them has to be the possibility of deception by someone.
DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL telling Ricardo Paive what David Payne said in his questionnaire;
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry.
In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
It is very troubling for it has never be backed by what they say later IMO. "Date: October 24, 2007" so Mike is not talking about the Rogatory interviews for they hadn't been conducted by that stage.
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Stating facts is never libellous, expressing negative assumptions which are based on those facts but not supported by evidence whether you believe them or not is libellous.
I believe that is incorrect. You can state facts such in such a way as to imply wrong doing on the part of another, as has been done on this thread, IMO.
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Stating facts is never libellous, expressing negative assumptions which are based on those facts but not supported by evidence whether you believe them or not is libellous.
What about the use of cherry-picked facts or factoids (devoid of context and/ or contradictory facts), to then extrapolate and build a defamatory narrative?
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What about the use of cherry-picked facts or factoids (devoid of context and/ or contradictory facts), to then extrapolate and build a defamatory narrative?
Which was covered by...
expressing negative assumptions which are based on those facts but not supported by evidence whether you believe them or not is libellous.
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Statement: A death occurring at anytime is a possibility.
True facts:
The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30.
Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30.
17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
One known fact left out of this post is that Madeleine was in the care of her parents until 8.30pm, one parent also claims to have seen her alive and in bed at circa 9pm.
Therefore in order for the statement "A death occuring at anytime (including prior to 9pm) is a possibility" to be true we have to accept that the McCanns are possibly lying to us, possibly guilty of murder, or some other act which caused the child's death. Is that not libel by inference?
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Statement: A death occurring at anytime is a possibility.
True facts:
The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30.
Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30.
17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
One known fact left out of this post is that Madeleine was in the care of her parents until 8.30pm, one parent also claims to have seen her alive and in bed at circa 9pm.
Therefore in order for the statement "A death occuring at anytime (including prior to 9pm) is a possibility" to be true we have to accept that the McCanns are possibly lying to us, possibly guilty of murder, or some other act which caused the child's death. Is that not libel by inference?
Does he, or does he just say she was lying there ?
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Does he, or does he just say she was lying there ?
Well he doesn't say she was lying there dead, so presumably he believed her to be alive, assuming the whole story wasn't an elaborate lie as some prefer to believe.
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Well he doesn't say she was lying there dead, so presumably he believed her to be alive, assuming the whole story wasn't an elaborate lie as some prefer to believe.
Well he wouldn't would he, even if she was dead.
So you are presuming, not stating a fact?
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Well he wouldn't would he, even if she was dead.
So you are presuming, not stating a fact?
Hence the cunning use of the word "presumably" in my post.
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Sometimes we see something that can't be confirmed or explained. Of the various possible explanations one of them has to be the possibility of deception by someone.
DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL telling Ricardo Paive what David Payne said in his questionnaire;
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry.
In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
Who is "she"?
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Statement: A death occurring at anytime is a possibility.
True facts:
The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30.
Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30.
17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
One known fact left out of this post is that Madeleine was in the care of her parents until 8.30pm, one parent also claims to have seen her alive and in bed at circa 9pm.
Therefore in order for the statement "A death occuring at anytime (including prior to 9pm) is a possibility" to be true we have to accept that the McCanns are possibly lying to us, possibly guilty of murder, or some other act which caused the child's death. Is that not libel by inference?
The Archiving Report confirmed that the McCanns and their friends didn’t check the children as they claimed.
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Hence the cunning use of the word "presumably" in my post.
But in post 291 you said it was a fact
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But in post 291 you said it was a fact
As we're only on post #197 I have to assume you are looking into the future.
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The Archiving Report confirmed that the McCanns and their friends didn’t check the children as they claimed.
What's that got to do with my post, exactly? In fact please can I have a cite for confirmation that the McCanns did not check their children at the times they claimed on the night in question.
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What's that got to do with my post, exactly? In fact please can I have a cite for confirmation that the McCanns did not check their children at the times they claimed on the night in question.
You seemed appalled that the parents may have lied yet the AG said precisely the same thing.
As to the requested cite, I’m sure you’ve seen it a million times but here it is again.
‘This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.’
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You seemed appalled that the parents may have lied yet the AG said precisely the same thing.
As to the requested cite, I’m sure you’ve seen it a million times but here it is again.
‘This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.’
I seemed appalled? Could you show me where? My post was about the libellous inference in Pathfinder's original post, nothing more nothing less. Is there anything in the report that says Gerry was lying about his 9pm check on the day Madeleine went missing?
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I seemed appalled? Could you show me where? My post was about the libellous inference in Pathfinder's original post, nothing more nothing less. Is there anything in the report that says Gerry was lying about his 9pm check on the day Madeleine went missing?
The AG didn’t comment on precise nights but I’m afraid once you’ve been caught out in a lie once, even to save your skin, everything else you say is tainted from that point.
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The AG didn’t comment on precise nights but I’m afraid once you’ve been caught out in a lie once, even to save your skin, everything else you say is tainted from that point.
Well, like I said in my post Gerry CLAIMED to have seen Madeleine alive, so I don't know what more you want me to say, nor have you pointed out where you think I was appalled at any point in this conversation? Is there any evidence that Gerry lied about not doing his 9pm check? there is evidence that he did, in the form of Jez Wilkins, or is that not sufficient evidence for you?
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Well, like I said in my post Gerry CLAIMED to have seen Madeleine alive, so I don't know what more you want me to say, nor have you pointed out where you think I was appalled at any point in this conversation? Is there any evidence that Gerry lied about not doing his 9pm check? there is evidence that he did, in the form of Jez Wilkins, or is that not sufficient evidence for you?
Jez Wilkins put their chat between 8.45 and 9.15pm so although the chat did take place the timescale is unclear.
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Jez Wilkins put their chat between 8.45 and 9.15pm so although the chat did take place the timescale is unclear.
The McCanns only left their apartment at 8.30, so a check at 8.45 seems less likely, however thanks for conceding that Gerry most likely DID do a check on that evening and therefore my point stands.
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Who is "she"?
I thought it was a reference to Fiona Payne. Do you think I was wrong on that too?
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As we're only on post #197 I have to assume you are looking into the future.
Must be -try 189. Whatever you said it was a fact
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I seemed appalled? Could you show me where? My post was about the libellous inference in Pathfinder's original post, nothing more nothing less. Is there anything in the report that says Gerry was lying about his 9pm check on the day Madeleine went missing?
Isn't it the fact that when they are declared an arguido, there is the right to doubt any part of their word. A suspect in a crime can not be trusted so their word could well be in error too. You won't find where they say it was a lie but they don't use the check (other than Jez and Gerry spoke outside the apartment) as part of the PJ theory. There are certainly doubts expressed about Gerry's check especially the use of the front door and the key.
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Must be -try 189. Whatever you said it was a fact
Which bit of my post specifically are you taking issue with?
Statement: A death occurring at anytime is a possibility.
True facts:
The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30.
Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30.
17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
One known fact left out of this post is that Madeleine was in the care of her parents until 8.30pm, one parent also claims to have seen her alive and in bed at circa 9pm.
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Isn't it the fact that when they are declared an arguido, there is the right to doubt any part of their word. A suspect in a crime can not be trusted so their word could well be in error too. You won't find where they say it was a lie but they don't use the check (other than Jez and Gerry spoke outside the apartment) as part of the PJ theory. There are certainly doubts expressed about Gerry's check especially the use of the front door and the key.
I have no idea what any of that has got to do with my post about Pathfinder's libellous inference in his or her own post.
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I seemed appalled? Could you show me where? My post was about the libellous inference in Pathfinder's original post, nothing more nothing less. Is there anything in the report that says Gerry was lying about his 9pm check on the day Madeleine went missing?
Is Pathfinder's post still current?
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Is Pathfinder's post still current?
Read back Rob. Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with his or her post per se, but if there is a forum rule that libel isn't permitted then in my opinion that post libels the McCanns by implying that Madeleine could have died whilst in their care in the apartment.
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Read back Rob. Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with his or her post per se, but if there is a forum rule that libel isn't permitted then in my opinion that post libels the McCanns by implying that Madeleine could have died whilst in their care in the apartment.
I had checked back and I didn't see it. Did you check? You keep on referring to it without quoting it. (I hadn't checked back far enough, it was #136 page 10.)
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A death occurring at anytime is a possibility. The last independent sighting of Madeleine is 17:30. Matt Oldfield did not see her at 21:30. 17:30 to 21:30 is 240 minutes.
It was #136
Independent of the arguidos themselves. OK they are no longer arguidos but some don't seem to accept that.
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
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Don't you have to be in physical contact for the scent to transfer ?
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Don't you have to be in physical contact for the scent to transfer ?
no idea, but I was stuck in a smallish ward with a corpse for 7 hours, my curtains, table, other stuff were swooshed by nurses who had been in direct contact with the corpse, albeit with gloves on, but if you touch a corpse with gloves on, then touch a curtain to pull it back and then I touch the curtain, does that not make me a potential carrier of the scent?
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
It isn't really acceptable for a dead patient to be left on a ward.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2557553/Dead-body-left-on-hospital-ward-for-seven-hours.html
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It isn't really acceptable for a dead patient to be left on a ward.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2557553/Dead-body-left-on-hospital-ward-for-seven-hours.html
I agree, I think it's an absolute disgrace, the whole episode was a shocking eye-opener in more ways that one, but this is not the place to discuss it.
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
What a dreadfully upsetting experience for everyone.
I hope you are soon out of hospital VS and soon feeling better.
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What a dreadfully upsetting experience for everyone.
I hope you are soon out of hospital VS and soon feeling better.
Thanks Erngarth, I can't wait to get out of here, it is pretty grim.
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
I would expect the finish of treatment and subsequent arranging of the body to be pretty close to time of death. The body would normally be removed to the hospital mortuary by staff other than nurses.
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I would expect the finish of treatment and subsequent arranging of the body to be pretty close to time of death. The body would normally be removed to the hospital mortuary by staff other than nurses.
but that is not what happened last night. Instead staff cleaned up the body in bed, called the relatives and we had to wait for them to arrive to see the body, stay with it and grieve for as long as they wished, all while we were lying in our beds with curtains around us, in the middle of the night. Porters arrived laughing and joking at 6am to take the corpse away.
I have googled "body left in ward" and there are several recent examples.
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but that is not what happened last night. Instead staff cleaned up the body in bed, called the relatives and we had to wait for them to arrive to see the body, stay with it and grieve for as long as they wished, all while we were lying in our beds with curtains around us, in the middle of the night. Porters arrived laughing and joking at 6am to take the corpse away.
I have googled "body left in ward" and there are several recent examples.
That sounds like what I said?
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That sounds like what I said?
Did you say they normally leave a body in a ward overnight for relatives to grieve over whilst other patients are lying in their beds? Sorry I missed that bit.
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but that is not what happened last night. Instead staff cleaned up the body in bed, called the relatives and we had to wait for them to arrive to see the body, stay with it and grieve for as long as they wished, all while we were lying in our beds with curtains around us, in the middle of the night. Porters arrived laughing and joking at 6am to take the corpse away.
I have googled "body left in ward" and there are several recent examples.
That is a spot on example of how easily cadaver scent might be transferred without the carrier even being aware of having had any contact.
From what I have read, direct contact wouldn't have been necessary to cause a trained dog to react to the scent which permeates through everything nearby.
I feel for everyone involved in the very distressing situation you and the other patients found yourselves in. Particularly the relatives given no privacy to grieve and say their goodbyes.
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Did you say they normally leave a body in a ward overnight for relatives to grieve over whilst other patients are lying in their beds? Sorry I missed that bit.
I've not heard of that before. Doesn't appear to cover 'dignity in death' does it?
However the fact that such a situation did occur gives food for thought concerning cadaver scent and its transference in relation to a false positive alert by a cadaver dog.
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
Sorry to hear you're even in hospital, let alone going through that experience. 8(8-))
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Sorry to hear you're even in hospital, let alone going through that experience. 8(8-))
Thanks Carana. It's been 12 days now so far - didn't share this anecdote for sympathy though, honest!
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
I don't see how it can be so easy to spread. Nurses, ward staff, patients and visitors would all be spreading the scent constantly. I can't see that happening otherwise it would be a waste of time and money training cadaver dogs.
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I don't see how it can be so easy to spread. Nurses, ward staff, patients and visitors would all be spreading the scent constantly. I can't see that happening otherwise it would be a waste of time and money training cadaver dogs.
All your opinion and wrong in my opinion
The value of cadaver dogs is in the evidence they find
The ease of cross contamination.... Remember the old furniture in the Shannon Mathews, case is why the, alerts are not evidential without forensic confirmation
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I don't see how it can be so easy to spread. Nurses, ward staff, patients and visitors would all be spreading the scent constantly. I can't see that happening otherwise it would be a waste of time and money training cadaver dogs.
So no cadaver scent then? OK.
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I don't see how it can be so easy to spread. Nurses, ward staff, patients and visitors would all be spreading the scent constantly. I can't see that happening otherwise it would be a waste of time and money training cadaver dogs.
So, despite the fact that I spent 7 hours lying approximately 10 feet from a corpse, you don't think there's any likelihood that me or my possessions would have been impregnated with this scent?
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but that is not what happened last night. Instead staff cleaned up the body in bed, called the relatives and we had to wait for them to arrive to see the body, stay with it and grieve for as long as they wished, all while we were lying in our beds with curtains around us, in the middle of the night. Porters arrived laughing and joking at 6am to take the corpse away.
I have googled "body left in ward" and there are several recent examples.
Sorry to hear you are in hospital VS.
As to the unfortunate individual who died, we are all agreed that what happened on your ward isn’t ‘normal’ and if it had been the cause of the alerts in 5a wouldn’t it be yet another of those very unfortunate ‘coincidences’ ?
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So no cadaver scent then? OK.
All down to exposure times I expect.
If a corpse laid in the bed for 7 hours then the mattress will be heavily contaminated as would be any bed sheets.
Handling a corpse for a couple of minutes wearing cloves might result in no transfer contamination at all.
Not sure if air in the room can be contaminated.
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So, despite the fact that I spent 7 hours lying approximately 10 feet from a corpse, you don't think there's any likelihood that me or my possessions would have been impregnated with this scent?
Probably not if you haven't been in physical contact, but better get yourself checked out by Dr Canine at the earliest opportunity and then you can update us all.
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Probably not if you haven't been in physical contact, but better get yourself checked out by Dr Canine at the earliest opportunity and then you can update us all.
If you could let me know who or what you're talking about that would be helpful - Dr Canine? Is that supposed to be funny?
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Sorry to hear you are in hospital VS.
As to the unfortunate individual who died, we are all agreed that what happened on your ward isn’t ‘normal’ and if it had been the cause of the alerts in 5a wouldn’t it be yet another of those very unfortunate ‘coincidences’ ?
What are all the other very unfortunate coincidences? Remember, most of them (if I'm correct) are merely suppositions to explain possible anomalies, and most may be completely irrelevant in any case - they don't all need to have occurred in order for the alleged abduction to have occurred, perhaps a thread to discuss all the unfortunate coincidences as you perceive them? My experience last night was to show how 5 random people can suddenly find themselves exposed to a cadaver and to ask whether or not being in the same room as one for 7 hours would cause a dog to alert to them or their possessions. As for it being an uncommon event, well I've now read of several similar cases and that's just the ones that made the papers. This one won't I very much doubt. No one here seemed that surprised or shocked by it either.
PS: thanks for your kind words at the start of your post.
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I had an interesting but upsetting experience last night - I am currently in hospital and last night one of the other patients in my small ward went into cardiac arrest and died at 10.30pm. Their body lay in the ward overnight with us, and was removed at 6am this morning. That means there are 5 individuals (all from different backgrounds and careers) in here whose possessions and selves would now cause a cadaver dog to alert if they were subject to its sniffing. Presumably if I go home next week and (god forbid) my son disappears and they bring the cadaver dogs in, all noses will be pointing at me and my stuff.
Hope the recovery go's well,but Jeez what are you doing spending time on here,what am I missing? Relieves the boredom one supposes.
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If you could let me know who or what you're talking about that would be helpful - Dr Canine? Is that supposed to be funny?
One of the cadaver dogs, of course. If they don't react, then you haven't been contaminated.
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Hope the recovery go's well,but Jeez what are you doing spending time on here,what am I missing? Relieves the boredom one supposes.
Precisely - it relieves the boredom - without my laptop I would have died of it by now.
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One of the cadaver dogs, of course. If they don't react, then you haven't been contaminated.
I'm afraid Dr Canine doesn't appear to be on the staff at this particular hospital but thanks for the suggestion.
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Did you say they normally leave a body in a ward overnight for relatives to grieve over whilst other patients are lying in their beds? Sorry I missed that bit.
When did I say that?
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When did I say that?
You didn't but you didnt' really say anything relevant to the point I was making which was that - I had been left in a room with a corpse for seven hours and what this might mean regarding odour transference.
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no idea, but I was stuck in a smallish ward with a corpse for 7 hours, my curtains, table, other stuff were swooshed by nurses who had been in direct contact with the corpse, albeit with gloves on, but if you touch a corpse with gloves on, then touch a curtain to pull it back and then I touch the curtain, does that not make me a potential carrier of the scent?
Did you see it done in that exact order?
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Did you see it done in that exact order?
pretty much yes - also, I'd like to point out that hospital curtains must be the filthiest items in the world because if a nurse goes in to wash a patient who has vomited or used a bedpan or wet the bed, they may well wear disposable gloves to clean up but they are usually still wearing those same gloves when pulling back the curtains, or have been from my observations.
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You didn't but you didnt' really say anything relevant to the point I was making which was that - I had been left in a room with a corpse for seven hours and what this might mean regarding odour transference.
You implied that the nurses would be contaminated with cadaver odour even though they would most likely have finished dealing with the body long before the development of cadaver odour and the staff responsible for moving the body would be unlikely to be having contact with other patients without clean up.
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You implied that the nurses would be contaminated with cadaver odour even though they would most likely have finished dealing with the body long before the development of cadaver odour and the staff responsible for moving the body would be unlikely to be having contact with other patients without clean up.
In other words ... were one to sit shooting the breeze in a smoke filled room for a number of hours ... the curtains and other soft furnishings, one's hair and clothing wouldn't stink to high heaven of tobacco smoke.
Sounds reasonable.
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pretty much yes - also, I'd like to point out that hospital curtains must be the filthiest items in the world because if a nurse goes in to wash a patient who has vomited or used a bedpan or wet the bed, they may well wear disposable gloves to clean up but they are usually still wearing those same gloves when pulling back the curtains, or have been from my observations.
I think the observation you have made is a very valuable one. I hope you report this to the management at the hospital. It needs to be addressed.
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You implied that the nurses would be contaminated with cadaver odour even though they would most likely have finished dealing with the body long before the development of cadaver odour and the staff responsible for moving the body would be unlikely to be having contact with other patients without clean up.
The people who moved the body are the same people who have brought two other patients into the ward in the last 24 hours. Nurses, or assistants who help us in the ward stripped the bedding the corpse was lying on to be sent to laundry. And your point is...?
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I think the observation you have made is a very valuable one. I hope you report this to the management at the hospital. It needs to be addressed.
I'm seriously considering it.
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When my daughter comes home from a night out with her friends she whiffs of tobacco smoke despite not being a smoker herself, and despite the fact that most of the smoking is done in an outdoor environment, ie: outside the club or pub.
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Agreed. When my daughter comes home from a night out with her friends she whiffs of tobacco smoke despite not being a smoker herself, and despite the fact that most of the smoking is done in an outdoor environment, ie: outside the club or pub.
I doubt if cadaver odour is transferred in a similar fashion unless the cadaver was incinerated in a fire close by.
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'Odour' is defined as being a distinctive smell, particularly an offensive one. I think it takes a wee while in most circumstances for the smell of a decomposing corpse to register on the human nose. It takes no time at all for the smell of tobacco to register; if you hang a tobacco contaminated garment in your cupboard there will definitely be a transference of the odour to whatever else is hanging therein.
The principal for one odour is the same as for all others. Sometimes, although it is there we may be unable to detect a scent but a dog surely will and can be trained accordingly, and that is when the human interaction kicks in.
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In my opinion the analogy fits. 'Odour' is defined as being a distinctive smell, particularly an offensive one. I think it takes a wee while in most circumstances for the smell of a decomposing corpse to register on the human nose. It takes no time at all for the smell of tobacco to register; if you hang a tobacco contaminated garment in your cupboard there will definitely be a transference of the odour to whatever else is hanging therein.
The principal for one odour is the same as for all others. Sometimes, although it is there we may be unable to detect a scent but a dog surely will and can be trained accordingly, and that is when the human interaction kicks in.
I'm not so sure. Didn't someone post about the droplets of oil in tobacco smoke?
"The particles in tobacco smoke are liquid aerosol droplets (~ 20% water), with a mass median aerodynamic diameter (MMAD) that is submicrometer (and thus, fairly "lung-respirable" by humans). The droplets are present in high concentrations (some estimates are as high as 10¹⁰ droplets per cm³). Most cigarettes today contain a cigarette filter, which can reduce "tar" and nicotine smoke yields up to 50% by several different mechanisms, with an even greater removal rate for other classes of compounds (e.g., phenols).[1]"
I have not read that cadaver odour is transferred via aerosol droplets naturally from a cadaver.
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I'm not so sure. Didn't someone post about the droplets of oil in tobacco smoke?
I have not read that cadaver odour is transferred via aerosol droplets.
There would be evaporation of substances on the body and these, would deposit on anything nearby
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There would be evaporation of substances on the body and these, would deposit on anything nearby
In other words ... an odour?
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I'm not so sure. Didn't someone post about the droplets of oil in tobacco smoke?
I have not read that cadaver odour is transferred via aerosol droplets naturally from a cadaver.
Cadaver odour cannot be compared to tobacco smoke or →smoke at all. Tobacco smoke contains e.g. even such agressive particles as →tar. Smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass. Smoke particles are an aerosol (or mist) of solid particles and liquid droplets that are close to the ideal range of sizes for Mie scattering of visible light. Thus smoke, e.g. tobacco smoke, will contaminate even objects which are not in physical contact very effectivly even from the very beginning of smoking on.
http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=cadaver_odour&do=export_pdf (http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=cadaver_odour&do=export_pdf)
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In other words ... an odour?
Yes and this is confirmed by slartis link.....as I was able to introduce a point of interest that was confirmed by slartis link its clear I have a good knowledge of the alerts...however it seems my support for the mccanns is not appreciated on the forum...the link also confirms taht the odour would not ahve lased 3 months outsde in the flower bed...another questionable alert
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http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=cadaver_odour&do=export_pdf (http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=cadaver_odour&do=export_pdf)
That was interesting but I still wouldn't treat the statements in there as scientific fact. It isn't a scientific paper IMO.
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That was interesting but I still wouldn't treat the statements in there as scientific fact. It isn't a scientific paper IMO.
there basically is no scientific support for the alerts
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Yes and this is confirmed by slartis link.....as I was able to introduce a point of interest that was confirmed by slartis link its clear I have a good knowledge of the alerts...however it seems my support for the mccanns is not appreciated on the forum
Although a bit dated ... the link looks worth a look ... I'll check it out when I have time.
Quite often I feel it is very much a case of logic v prejudice and I have found that independent papers such as this are informative and come down on the side of logic.
Stand back now and watch the scrabble for the claim to logic 8(0(*
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