UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on April 28, 2018, 03:47:22 PM
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If Jeremy Bamber cannot persuade us of his innocence he is unlikely to ever persuade the Court of Appeal. And therein lies the crux of the problem facing him. If he were to uncover some overwhelming piece of evidence or some material fact which not only throws doubt on his conviction but leaves one with the single compelling thought that he must be innocent, then that would see him walk free. I have my severe doubts however that such evidence will ever be found or more importantly, even exists.
I wish him luck!
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If Jeremy Bamber cannot persuade us of his innocence he is unlikely to ever persuade the Court of Appeal. And therein lies the crux of the problem facing him. If he were to uncover some overwhelming piece of evidence or some material fact which not only throws doubt on his conviction but leaves one with the single compelling thought that he must be innocent, then that would see him walk free. I have my severe doubts however that such evidence will ever be found or more importantly, even exists.
I wish him luck!
Let's face it John not one single supporter of Bamber's sings from the same hymn sheet for starters. Many of the supporters have their own apparent axe to grind over some past wrong doing or slight and some appear to have a scewed view of reality.
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Let's face it John not one single supporter of Bamber's sings from the same hymn sheet for starters. Many of the supporters have their own apparent axe to grind over some past wrong doing or slight and some appear to have a scewed view of reality.
I have been following the supporters arguments for years and am yet to see anything compelling which could in any way support his claims. The police misbehaviour, the confused communications reports, the silencer issues etc etc..., none of it will make any difference.
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I have been following the supporters arguments for years and am yet to see anything compelling which could in any way support his claims. The police misbehaviour, the confused communications reports, the silencer issues etc etc..., none of it will make any difference.
As I keep saying John, most of Bamber's "supporters" have been groomed and conned. It all starts with Bamber. I don't include people like Mike Tesco because he's of a similar ilk as Bamber; a failed con artist.
But it all leads back to Bamber, he's manufactured his entire campaign. Just like he manufactures his personality to suit each and everyone of of his "friends." The Jeremy Bamber his "friends" think they know is all an illusion.
He pits his supporters against each other, as Daisy and Aunt A have showed us. Whilst they cannot bring themselves to publicly admit he's guilty, their doubts are there none the less. They admit Bamber lies, they admit he's arrogant and manipulative etc but to admit they've been duped appears too difficult. Which is a shame because IMO there will come a time in the very near future when they will all learn he is a psychopath.
And whilst they are too busy focusing on each other, they cannot fully focus on what is starring right in front of them. A cold blooded killer..
But as you say, if he cannot persuade us he has no hope of persuading the courts. It really is that simple.
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I think experts, lawyers and lay people view the case very differently.
Only experts and lawyers can change JB's fate.
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I think experts, lawyers and lay people view the case very differently.
Only experts and lawyers can change JB's fate.
How many experts and lawyers have failed in these past 33 years?
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The real Jeremy Bamber has been exposed by his friends and supporters
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3187.msg119150#msg119150
The exact SAME Jeremy Bamber who Julie Mugford described all those years ago?
He was and is a consummate actor!
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I'm new here but have spent a lot of time over the years reading up on this case. For a while I believed the weepy persuasion of Bamber and his loony supporters and did actually think that there was a possibility of Sheila's guilt. For me now the truth of Bamber's guilt is Sheila's innocence and no amount of silencers, moonlight shadows or anything else Bamber cares to throw into the mixing pot can alter the fact that Sheila's body tells its own story - a woman woken from sleep into a house of horror and coldly shot dead on the second attempt.
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I'm new here but have spent a lot of time over the years reading up on this case. For a while I believed the weepy persuasion of Bamber and his loony supporters and did actually think that there was a possibility of Sheila's guilt. For me now the truth of Bamber's guilt is Sheila's innocence and no amount of silencers, moonlight shadows or anything else Bamber cares to throw into the mixing pot can alter the fact that Sheila's body tells its own story - a woman woken from sleep into a house of horror and coldly shot dead on the second attempt.
I wouldn't describe myself as "loony" but I'm sure others might beg to differ!
JB's fate can only be changed by 3 appeal court judges who consider his conviction unsafe based on sound forensic evidence. Either such evidence exists or it doesn't. If it exists he'll walk if it doesn't he won't. Simples.
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I'm new here but have spent a lot of time over the years reading up on this case. For a while I believed the weepy persuasion of Bamber and his loony supporters and did actually think that there was a possibility of Sheila's guilt. For me now the truth of Bamber's guilt is Sheila's innocence and no amount of silencers, moonlight shadows or anything else Bamber cares to throw into the mixing pot can alter the fact that Sheila's body tells its own story - a woman woken from sleep into a house of horror and coldly shot dead on the second attempt.
Welcome Alice - always great to hear another voice of reason 8((()*/
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I wouldn't describe myself as "loony" but I'm sure others might beg to differ!
JB's fate can only be changed by 3 appeal court judges who consider his conviction unsafe based on sound forensic evidence. Either such evidence exists or it doesn't. If it exists he'll walk if it doesn't he won't. Simples.
I don't think you're a loony Holly, you certainly don't leap blindly on any hair brained theory or cling to old myths with a vice grip of desperation. And you do have the good grace to admit when you're wrong.
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Not my intention to offend but the campaigns such as the bake off, the graveside reading and the totally offensive 'Sheila alive' are in my opinion the work of loonies!
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Not my intention to offend but the campaigns such as the bake off, the graveside reading and the totally offensive 'Sheila alive' are in my opinion the work of loonies!
Or simply those willing to suppress how vile and horrendous are the crimes he's been convicted of, perhaps?
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I think experts, lawyers and lay people view the case very differently.
Only experts and lawyers can change JB's fate.
Don't forget to factor in Julie Migford's evidence
"It is understood that Ms Mugford will be questioned about the role of police in her decision to confess to a bank about her part in a cheque fraud prior to giving evidence at Bamber's trial.
Bamber claims in the appeal that police suppressed certain information in order to bolster the character of their star witness.
It has also been claimed during the hearing that she had sold her story to the News of the World for £25,000 before the trial and not afterwards.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-144370/Ex-girlfriend-face-Bamber-dock.html#ixzz5E5hCNDXp
"Doubt should also be cast on the "selfish" motives of Julie Mugford, Bamber's girlfriend at the time, who told police Bamber had spoken of killing them, Mr Turner said. A bank accountant would give evidence that she had confessed to a cheque fraud, and she had sold her story to the News of the World for £25,000, with her solicitor opening negotiations before the start of the trial. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/oct/18/ukcrime.sarahhall
"Bamber claims in his appeal that police tried to bolster Mrs Smerchanski's image, as she was their star witness.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2358021.stm
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I agree that Mugford comes across as totally dishonest and self serving and she had charges against her that she would want to lose. That aside I do think that her evidence gives us the truth on one major point and that is the detail of Matthew M as hitman. It would make perfect sense that a guilty Bamber having told her of his plans and keen to keep her on side would then try to distance himself from the bloody horror that must have shocked her to the core by palming it off on a hitman.
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I don't think you're a loony Holly, you certainly don't leap blindly on any hair brained theory or cling to old myths with a vice grip of desperation. And you do have the good grace to admit when you're wrong.
*&(+(+
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Not my intention to offend but the campaigns such as the bake off, the graveside reading and the totally offensive 'Sheila alive' are in my opinion the work of loonies!
I agree 100% - totally ill advised and indefensible!
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I agree that Mugford comes across as totally dishonest and self serving and she had charges against her that she would want to lose. That aside I do think that her evidence gives us the truth on one major point and that is the detail of Matthew M as hitman. It would make perfect sense that a guilty Bamber having told her of his plans and keen to keep her on side would then try to distance himself from the bloody horror that must have shocked her to the core by palming it off on a hitman.
I believe he also told her about the hitman because he didn't want her to know the full details, if she went to the police with the story he told her, in his mind, she wouldn't be believed.
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The hitman story also reveals the truth as well I fear - the twins being shot first and the valiant struggle of Nevill to save his life. Nevill's injuries sadly tell his story and I have always thought that the little boys would have had to be done away with first. After all they would have been a dreadful sight upset and running around awake and scared. I do get cross about this as a mother, after all Ian Huntley slaughtered two children but I dont see mad old women or tin foil hat men bleating on about releasing him or finding reasons why his conviction was not sound!
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The hitman story also reveals the truth as well I fear - the twins being shot first and the valiant struggle of Nevill to save his life. Nevill's injuries sadly tell his story and I have always thought that the little boys would have had to be done away with first. After all they would have been a dreadful sight upset and running around awake and scared. I do get cross about this as a mother, after all Ian Huntley slaughtered two children but I dont see mad old women or tin foil hat men bleating on about releasing him or finding reasons why his conviction was not sound!
I agree that the twins must have been shot first, they were the only ones still in bed seemingly undisturbed. I guess such a coward wouldn't have been able to look them in the eye.
I suppose in defence, 'most' supporters believe that he isn't respnsible so don't view him as a child killer. However, I think there are some, who really just don't care one way or the other, they just enjoy being part of 'the cause'.
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I agree that the twins must have been shot first, they were the only ones still in bed seemingly undisturbed. I guess such a coward wouldn't have been able to look them in the eye.
I suppose in defence, 'most' supporters believe that he isn't respnsible so don't view him as a child killer. However, I think there are some, who really just don't care one way or the other, they just enjoy being part of 'the cause'.
I agree with your observations Caroline!
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If Jeremy Bamber cannot persuade us of his innocence he is unlikely to ever persuade the Court of Appeal. And therein lies the crux of the problem facing him. If he were to uncover some overwhelming piece of evidence or some material fact which not only throws doubt on his conviction but leaves one with the single compelling thought that he must be innocent, then that would see him walk free. I have my severe doubts however that such evidence will ever be found or more importantly, even exists.
I wish him luck!
The autopsy report for Sheila states
"Wristw..ch left wrist. turquoise nightdress
well nourished. Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand."
That blood stained palm does not accord with the prosecution case.
Let Jeremy Bamber go until this is explained.
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The autopsy report for Sheila states
"Wristw..ch left wrist. turquoise nightdress
well nourished. Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand."
That blood stained palm does not accord with the prosecution case.
Let Jeremy Bamber go until this is explained.
Let him go where exactly? He's been convicted for 5 murders. He's going nowhere!
Please stop cherry picking to suit your agenda!
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Let him go where exactly? He's been convicted for 5 murders. He's going nowhere!
Please stop cherry picking to suit your agenda!
I was not aware that she had blood on her palm. I was just wondering how it got there, I presume it has been explained, but I can't visualise a scenario.
Robin Bain also had a bloodstained palm. I see this as evidence they were both involved in fighting before being shot. I have studied both cases extensively, and the perfect suicide trajectories combined with evidence of combat are sufficient for me.
This is all confirmation of other evidence re planning and motive. Incest, child confiscation. Powerful.
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The autopsy report for Sheila states
"Wristw..ch left wrist. turquoise nightdress
well nourished. Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand."
That blood stained palm does not accord with the prosecution case.
Let Jeremy Bamber go until this is explained.
Samson rely on David at your peril! Here's Dr Vanezis' trial testimony re SC's hands:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
I don't believe they were bloodstained. If they were we have to believe Dr Vanezis was incompetent/negligent and/or perjured himself.
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The autopsy report for Sheila states
"Wristw..ch left wrist. turquoise nightdress
well nourished. Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand."
That blood stained palm does not accord with the prosecution case.
Let Jeremy Bamber go until this is explained.
Errrr why?
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Samson rely on David at your peril! Here's Dr Vanezis' trial testimony re SC's hands:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
I don't believe they were bloodstained. If they were we have to believe Dr Vanezis was incompetent/negligent and/or perjured himself.
It looks like a forensic observation of blood on her hand transferring to the nightdress. I see Charlie's explanation
"It's her own blood. She was propped on her right elbow, with her right hand wrapped around the barrel of the rifle, a couple of inches from the tip. When she fired the first shot into her neck, blood spurted onto her wrist and trickled downward."
But I have no reason to dispute the notes David claimed to transcribe. Whatever we have her blood on her hand and nightdress, and only one realistic explanation, she shot herself.
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It looks like a forensic observation of blood on her hand transferring to the nightdress. I see Charlie's explanation
"It's her own blood. She was propped on her right elbow, with her right hand wrapped around the barrel of the rifle, a couple of inches from the tip. When she fired the first shot into her neck, blood spurted onto her wrist and trickled downward."
But I have no reason to dispute the notes David claimed to transcribe. Whatever we have her blood on her hand and nightdress, and only one realistic explanation, she shot herself.
IMO Charlie's explanation is spot on and ties in with all the other known facts incl. Dr Vanezis' trial testimony. I'm looking at a good/hard quality soc image and the way Charlie describes the blood spurting on SC's wrist and trickling down aligns with the image and Dr Vanezis' trial testimony. Charlie talks about bloodstains to SC's wrist area as Dr Vanezis does. However David is convinced he can see SC's handprint in the bible. I totally disagree. There's no evidence SC ever handled the bible. All the evidence points to June sustaining her gsw's in bed and walking around the bed holding her bible:
- June was very religious to the point the CoA described her interest as obsessive.
- June attended weekly bible classes
- June's mental illness was bound up with religiosity as per her psychiatrist
- The bible was kept in/on June's bedside cabinet
- The only identifiable fingerprints belonged to June
- The bible was found in an area where June had walked and shed a lot of blood on other exhibits in the area eg carpet and socks on carpet
- The pathologist confirmed in autopsy report and trial testimony June's hands, palms and fingers were bloodstained.
Samson you and I are atheists so maybe difficult to get your head round but I think someone such as June who was deeply religious reached for her bible having sustained the gsw's and walked around the bed clutching it. Then as she started losing consciousness she dropped it pretty much where it was found. I say pretty much as the perp may have entered the main bedroom from the box room and inadvertently moved it when opening the door: twins room, box room, main bedroom.
All bloodstained exhibits were tested and results published but not so for the bible.
JB's lawyers, CT and David are oblivious to the facts. They argue SC somehow had bloodstained hands and sought out the bible to read with the passages representing her state of mind. See CoA hearing points 405 -421. I would like to see MT QC struck off for incompetence and negligence:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Here's the CT's account here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fIx_fkDe0FE
Caroline - (guilty) believes SC's handprint is on bible
David - (innocent) believes SC's handprint is on bible
Holly - (innocent) believes June's handprint on bible or image that appears to be handprint might have been caused
by some other means such as box room door gliding over
Myster (guilty) believes June's handprint on bible
ETA: There's now overwhelming evidence SC was moved at soc before images were taken so the image we see with the bible on her arm is unlikely to be accurate.
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It looks like a forensic observation of blood on her hand transferring to the nightdress. I see Charlie's explanation
"It's her own blood. She was propped on her right elbow, with her right hand wrapped around the barrel of the rifle, a couple of inches from the tip. When she fired the first shot into her neck, blood spurted onto her wrist and trickled downward."
But I have no reason to dispute the notes David claimed to transcribe. Whatever we have her blood on her hand and nightdress, and only one realistic explanation, she shot herself.
David transcribed?
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David transcribed?
In this post
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=194025#p194025
These initial notes are always of interest before a false crime theory is concocted.
I saw it in Bain when the first notes described what could only be suicide.
Dr Alec Dempster, the pathologist:
He described the entry wound to Robin Bain as being 4mm in diameter surrounded by a ring of soot up to 10 mm in diameter.
"This indicates to me that this is a contact wound where the muzzle of the gun has been held in direct contact with the skin of the deceased."
Then the nutters took over and took the point of the gun a full meter from Robin when fired, so ruled out suicide and put David away for 13 years.
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The twins being shot first works with the 11 bullets available -
Daniel - 1 bullet
Nicholas - 1 bullet
June - 5 bullets
Nevill - 4 bullets.
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Bamber returned later to shoot the twins 6 more times & June twice more.
An expert believed the twins were shot in quick succession. They were, 6 times.
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I would have gone straight to the main bedroom.
Bamber may have been confident enough to shoot the twins once each first. Then make the short journey to the main bedroom.
He could shut the twins bedroom door before shooting them. The rifle had the silencer on & Nevill, June & Sheila were asleep in other rooms behind closed doors. Sheila under sedation. So no possibility of anyone hearing 2 shots into the twins.
What would make no sense is Bamber shooting the twins first, 8 times. Then going downstairs to re load before entering the main bedroom.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,1.0.html
What is not plausible is David's repeated suggestion that Nevill called Bamber after Sheila had shot the twins.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,1.0.html
What is not plausible is David's repeated suggestion that Nevill called Bamber after Sheila had shot the twins.
Sheila shot June then Nevill then the twins, and much later, herself.
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Well if you think that then you also think that she managed to beat and burn him to a massive degree. She was under eight and a half stone for heavens sake - with poor coordination and drugged. Funny dont you think that she was such a remarkable shot and attacker given her physicality?
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Well if you think that then you also think that she managed to beat and burn him to a massive degree. She was under eight and a half stone for heavens sake - with poor coordination and drugged. Funny dont you think that she was such a remarkable shot and attacker given her physicality?
I don't do believing, just crime scene.
We were subject to the disgraceful hoax concerning the police vs David Bain.
Bamber is every 23 year old with life ahead and no concept of trying to front run the estate.
Bamber is innocent.
Despite their Coro street like antics Holly and David are helping to right this ridiculous mess.
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Well if you think that then you also think that she managed to beat and burn him to a massive degree. She was under eight and a half stone for heavens sake - with poor coordination and drugged. Funny dont you think that she was such a remarkable shot and attacker given her physicality?
I'll tell you what I think:
- NB sustained 4 extremely serious gsw's upstairs which left him unable to defend himself thereafter
- The pathologist said NB sustained wounds from a "blunt instrument" most probably blows from the rifle inflicted when he was in a seated position.
- Prof Knight at trial didn't think the marks to NB's back were burns.
- I've haven't seen any evidence of SC's weight. Her build is similar to mine although she was 4" taller and I'm 8 and a half stone so she must have been heavier.
- There's no evidence SC suffered poor coordination and judging by how well her nails were manicured and her eyebrows shaped her hand eye coordination looks pretty good to me.
- Toxicology reports show SC had traces of cannabis in her stysyem and levels of Haloperidol at the low level within the moderate range so she wasn't "drugged".
- SC wasn't a "remarkable" shot. Victims sustained 25/26 gsw's. Had JB been responsible he would have aimed accurately at the head. In the case of David Bain 5 adults were killed with a .22 long rifle. The 5 victims sustained a total of 8 gsw's.
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The twins being shot first works with the 11 bullets available -
Daniel - 1 bullet
Nicholas - 1 bullet
June - 5 bullets
Nevill - 4 bullets.
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Bamber returned later to shoot the twins 6 more times & June twice more.
An expert believed the twins were shot in quick succession. They were, 6 times.
It's likely June sustained a graze only wound independent of the others during the first 'episode' ie 6 bullets.
Dr Vanezis thought the gsw's inflicted to DC were fired in succession as they formed an arc.
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Sheila shot June then Nevill then the twins, and much later, herself.
I agree with the above apart from there's no evidence SC took her own life much later.
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I agree with the above apart from there's no evidence SC took her own life much later.
Except the uncoagulated blood that shows drying from the edges. This is a proper photograph not touched up.
She shot herself only when confronted with the choice of being cold blooded child killer or tragic victim, tortured soul. The polis were all around.
Robin Bain folllowed her lead.
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In this post
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=194025#p194025
These initial notes are always of interest before a false crime theory is concocted.
I saw it in Bain when the first notes described what could only be suicide.
Dr Alec Dempster, the pathologist:
He described the entry wound to Robin Bain as being 4mm in diameter surrounded by a ring of soot up to 10 mm in diameter.
"This indicates to me that this is a contact wound where the muzzle of the gun has been held in direct contact with the skin of the deceased."
Then the nutters took over and took the point of the gun a full meter from Robin when fired, so ruled out suicide and put David away for 13 years.
I don't have access to the notes. Maybe Caroline does on the Blue forum and she can post them up or the section relating to June's hands? I've asked David to post up the notes on IA relating to June's hands in terms of bloodstains so we can see how they compare with notes re SC's hands. David has this idea he can see an image of SC's bloodstained handprint on the bible. I disagree.
If David is serious about getting to the truth he will oblige. We'll see.
Posters have a habit of making various assertions and then when challenged they run away or get silly eg David with his gifs. I'm waiting for an answer from LuminiousWanderer about how a two gun theory would work.
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Except the uncoagulated blood that shows drying from the edges. This is a proper photograph not touched up.
She shot herself only when confronted with the choice of being cold blooded child killer or tragic victim, tortured soul. The polis were all around.
Robin Bain folllowed her lead.
The authentic soc images I've seen show dried blood only. The police surgeon certified the deaths at approx 8.30am and said all victims died around the same time. No one at soc on morning of 7th Aug said SC looked different from other victims. Two highly regarded pathologists known internationally didn't raise the possibility SC took her life much later than the other victims.
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I'll tell you what I think:
- NB sustained 4 extremely serious gsw's upstairs which left him unable to defend himself thereafter - Then why the need to beat him at all? Why him and not June, it was June she supposedly had the beef with.The soc evidence supports NB downstairs on phone to JB. SC goes upstairs and shoots June 5/6 times. Meanwhile NB appears on landing and sustains the 4 gsw's. He retreated to kitchen and SC followed. It seems he went to kitchen worktop near phone hence bloodstains. If the perp had already shot him x 4, SC IMO, the clearly they wanted to injure him fatally. The beating he sustained was largely superficial eg abrasions and bruises most probably from the rifle. At this stage the perp was out of ammo so needed to beat him into submission until it was safe to reload.
- The pathologist said NB sustained wounds from a "blunt instrument" most probably blows from the rifle inflicted when he was in a seated position. As above.As above.
- Prof Knight at trial didn't think the marks to NB's back were burns. I agree - they don't look like burns to me either and whatever they are, they may have happened after death.Or maybe unrelated.
- I've haven't seen any evidence of SC's weight. Her build is similar to mine although she was 4" taller and I'm 8 and a half stone so she must have been heavier. I posted a picture of her taken a moth or so before her death and she looks very frail. It's not just a matter of weight though, it's coordination and ability.The SoC image shows her weight/bmi in the normal range. Certainly not frail or anorexic in appearance.
- There's no evidence SC suffered poor coordination and judging by how well her nails were manicured and her eyebrows shaped her hand eye coordination looks pretty good to me. There is evidence from other people and who said she did her own nails and eyebrows?Over the years authors have interviewed her various friends and there's no evidence anyone else did her nails, eyebrows. She was claiming DSS and no evidence she paid for such services.
- Toxicology reports show SC had traces of cannabis in her stysyem and levels of Haloperidol at the low level within the moderate range so she wasn't "drugged". She probably smoked cannabis at the party. A low level of moderate is not low. She was due her next injection and still had a moderate level in her system. She was medicated!Yes SC had a moderate level of Haloperidil on her system. Low within moderate range. There's no evidence she was out of it and would willingly allow JB to position her on the floor and shoot her twice.
- SC wasn't a "remarkable" shot. Victims sustained 25/26 gsw's. Had JB been responsible he would have aimed accurately at the head. In the case of David Bain 5 adults were killed with a .22 long rifle. The 5 victims sustained a total of 8 gsw's. Sheila wasn't any kind of shot, she fired a shotgun; into the air once, she had no experience of that rifle, the magazine wasn't on the rifle (according to Jeremy) so in her psychosis, she would have had to know it had a magazine, locate it from the settle, attatch it and chamber the first shot. In order for Jeremy Bamber to get a headshot on every victim, they would have had to have stayed still. The twins were executed with a head shot first because neither moved or woke from sleeping. The other shots were for effect. Jeremy isn't stupid, he had to make it look like 'a nutter' 'went crazy with a gun'
There's no evidence of SC's experience with firearms in general or the rifle used. Over the years she may have walked around the fields with NB and or others and let off shots. In any event it isn't remotely complicated. A twin baby buggy is a far more complex piece of equip. All the shots were close range and no doubt JB would have got in successful head shots with 1 or 2 gsw regardless of movement at the ranges. As a marksman he would know to aim slightly to left or right so whichever way the victim moved they would sustain a hit. In the Bain case 8 gsw's/5 victims at least 2 woke and were out of bed one putting up a fight and he only sustained 2 gsw's. NB's facial wounds were within inches JB would have got a successful head shot in. Yes SC suffered from paranoid schizophrenia but maybe she wasn't paranoid on 6th Aug. Maybe she was just in a rage.
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I don't have access to the notes. Maybe Caroline does on the Blue forum and she can post them up or the section relating to June's hands? I've asked David to post up the notes on IA relating to June's hands in terms of bloodstains so we can see how they compare with notes re SC's hands. David has this idea he can see an image of SC's bloodstained handprint on the bible. I disagree.
If David is serious about getting to the truth he will oblige. We'll see.
Posters have a habit of making various assertions and then when challenged they run away or get silly eg David with his gifs. I'm waiting for an answer from LuminiousWanderer about how a two gun theory would work.
That isn't David's idea - he has adopted it and it originally came from Jeremy himself!
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That isn't David's idea - he has adopted it and it originally came from Jerey himself!
8(0(*
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I don't have access to the notes. Maybe Caroline does on the Blue forum and she can post them up or the section relating to June's hands? I've asked David to post up the notes on IA relating to June's hands in terms of bloodstains so we can see how they compare with notes re SC's hands. David has this idea he can see an image of SC's bloodstained handprint on the bible. I disagree.
If David is serious about getting to the truth he will oblige. We'll see.
Posters have a habit of making various assertions and then when challenged they run away or get silly eg David with his gifs. I'm waiting for an answer from LuminiousWanderer about how a two gun theory would work.
Just Sheila's hands I am interested in from David's transcript, blood on hand transferred to blood on nightwear.
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
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Just Sheila's hands I am interested in from David's transcript, blood on hand transferred to blood on nightwear.
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
What about it? By the way, that was transcribed long before David made an appearance. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6884.msg320641.html#msg320641
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What about it? By the way, that was transcribed long before David made an appearance. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6884.msg320641.html#msg320641
It is part of the crime scene.
It will be possible to explain in words how it came about if
1. Jeremy shot Sheila twice.
2. Sheila shot herself twice.
Charlie for example has explained 2 but not 1, and that is from an uncomplicated view of the body.
It does matter.
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It is part of the crime scene.
It will be possible to explain in words how it came about if
1. Jeremy shot Sheila twice.
2. Sheila shot herself twice.
Charlie for example has explained 2 but not 1, and that is from an uncomplicated view of the body.
It does matter.
I saw Charlie's explanation - there are many, his is one and not one I hold in any regard.
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Just Sheila's hands I am interested in from David's transcript, blood on hand transferred to blood on nightwear.
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
David's transcript was taken from autopsy notes. Dr Vanezis trial testimony is as follows and he makes clear SC's hands were not contaminated with blood.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
If SC handled the bible why were her fingerprints not found on it?
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
Pages 12 -17 of the following contain a report from a Dr Lincoln, blood serologist, for the defense. It contains test results for all the blood stained exhibits but no mention of the bible.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=276.msg4584#msg4584
Of course JB's defense needed to chase this down but failed to do so.
This allowed the prosecution to get away with JM's testimony claiming MM placed the bible on SC's chest.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112
It's now clear SC was moved at SoC after officers found her and before she was photographed meaning there's no reliable data for SC's found position in relation to the bible.
IMO what has happened is that many people including the lawyers and judges have looked at the SoC image and have made assumptions about the bible and SC without considering the surrounding facts. The surrounding facts suggest SC did not have any contact with the bible whatsoever. The surrounding facts suggest June either carried it with her when she walked around the bed dropping it in the vicinity or it was thrown or on the bed and was effectively thrown off NB's side as June threw back the duvet to get up. I'm not convinced the stain inside the bible is a handprint or that the marks on SC's nightdress are a palm print. I'm looking at a good quality SoC image and there appears to be a void pattern above what appear to be fingerprints. The void pattern seems to have straight lines around which to my eyes could mean it was some blood transfer from the rifle and the void pattern represents a part of the rifle.
JB's lawyers at appeal claimed SC sought out the bible and the open pages represented her state of mind! Not surprisingly he was laughed out of court.
The CT claim the notes sticking out are a suicide letter from SC when in fact they were June's handwritten notes.
No one bothers with evidence just assumptions and imagination. Consequently JB gets nowhere.
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What about it? By the way, that was transcribed long before David made an appearance. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6884.msg320641.html#msg320641
Thanks Caroline. So David's transcripts are incomplete:
Caroline
Bloodstained palm print on nightdress. Bloodstains appear to have transfered from R hand
Both hands not contaminatd APART from bloodstains.
David
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
So it seems David is setting out to deceive by providing us with misleading information?
Dr Vanezis trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
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Thanks Caroline. So David's transcripts are incomplete:
Caroline
Bloodstained palm print on nightdress. Bloodstains appear to have transfered from R hand
Both hands not contaminatd APART from bloodstains.
David
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
So it seems David is setting out to deceive by providing us with misleading information?
Dr Vanezis trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
From David's transcript on IA I can see further down he quotes:
"Both hands not contaminated APART from bloodstains".
However Caroline's transcript doesn't include the word 'match' whereas David's does.
Has Caroline simply overlooked the word 'match' when she transcribed the hand written notes to the forum? Or has David inserted it to bolster his argument and so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'?
I think we need to get to the bottom of this.
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Thanks Caroline. So David's transcripts are incomplete:
Caroline
Bloodstained palm print on nightdress. Bloodstains appear to have transfered from R hand
Both hands not contaminatd APART from bloodstains.
David
Blood stained palm print on nightdress
matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from
right hand.
So it seems David is setting out to deceive by providing us with misleading information?
Dr Vanezis trial testimony:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
Not sure that he would provide misleading info in this instance, given that the information is available to check. There is a word in between nightdress and bloodstains, it could be matches but the sentence doesn't really make sense?
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From David's transcript on IA I can see further down he quotes:
"Both hands not contaminated APART from bloodstains".
However Caroline's transcript doesn't include the word 'match' whereas David's does.
Has Caroline simply overlooked the word 'match' when she transcribed the hand written notes to the forum? Or has David inserted it to bolster his argument and so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'?
I think we need to get to the bottom of this.
I remembered it's in CoA doc:
"bloodstained palm prints on nightdress matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from R hand. "
So David has not omitted or inserted anything. It seems Caroline overlooked the word 'match' unless CoA doc is incorrect?
In any event the notes are ambigious but Dr Vanezis makes clear the position at trial ie SC's palms and fingers were not contaminated with blood.
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Not sure that he would provide misleading info in this instance, given that the information is available to check. There is a word in between nightdress and bloodstains, it could be matches but the sentence doesn't really make sense?
Thanks, yes could be 'match'. At the end of the sentence there's a mark which might represent a question mark?
I have 2 hard copy good quality soc images of SC which I've just tried enlarging by moving my fingers over and then realised the images are hard copies and not my tablet! Anyway I can see first impression the marks could be said to resemble a hand print but on closer inspection I'm not so sure. The void area appears very definite and the third finger like mark has a sort of 'L' shape coming out of it? With the horizontal part of the 'L' pointing towards a blood trail on SC's wrist and the vertical part of the 'L' pointing towards the trigger. As it seems more likely than not SC was moved between officers finding her and soc images taken there's no reliable data regarding her found position in relation to rifle and bible.
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That isn't David's idea - he has adopted it and it originally came from Jeremy himself!
No David wasn't the first to moot it but he still holds dear the idea.
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That isn't David's idea - he has adopted it and it originally came from Jeremy himself!
I thought the idea was originally yours?
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Thanks, yes could be 'match'. At the end of the sentence there's a mark which might represent a question mark?
I have 2 hard copy good quality soc images of SC which I've just tried enlarging by moving my fingers over and then realised the images are hard copies and not my tablet! Anyway I can see first impression the marks could be said to resemble a hand print but on closer inspection I'm not so sure. The void area appears very definite and the third finger like mark has a sort of 'L' shape coming out of it? With the horizontal part of the 'L' pointing towards a blood trail on SC's wrist and the vertical part of the 'L' pointing towards the trigger. As it seems more likely than not SC was moved between officers finding her and soc images taken there's no reliable data regarding her found position in relation to rifle and bible.
Why does it seem likely she was moved? I don't agree given there would be no reason to move her. Two officers recollections weren't 100%, none of the others commented. Which images are you looking at are they on either forums are were they obtained by yourself?
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There's no evidence of SC's experience with firearms in general or the rifle used. Over the years she may have walked around the fields with NB and or others and let off shots. In any event it isn't remotely complicated. A twin baby buggy is a far more complex piece of equip. All the shots were close range and no doubt JB would have got in successful head shots with 1 or 2 gsw regardless of movement at the ranges. As a marksman he would know to aim slightly to left or right so whichever way the victim moved they would sustain a hit. In the Bain case 8 gsw's/5 victims at least 2 woke and were out of bed one putting up a fight and he only sustained 2 gsw's. NB's facial wounds were within inches JB would have got a successful head shot in. Yes SC suffered from paranoid schizophrenia but maybe she wasn't paranoid on 6th Aug. Maybe she was just in a rage.
Have responded above in Blue.
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Have responded above in Blue.
It's here!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9436.msg459629#msg459629
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There's no evidence of SC's experience with firearms in general or the rifle used. Over the years she may have walked around the fields with NB and or others and let off shots. In any event it isn't remotely complicated. A twin baby buggy is a far more complex piece of equip. All the shots were close range and no doubt JB would have got in successful head shots with 1 or 2 gsw regardless of movement at the ranges. As a marksman he would know to aim slightly to left or right so whichever way the victim moved they would sustain a hit. In the Bain case 8 gsw's/5 victims at least 2 woke and were out of bed one putting up a fight and he only sustained 2 gsw's. NB's facial wounds were within inches JB would have got a successful head shot in. Yes SC suffered from paranoid schizophrenia but maybe she wasn't paranoid on 6th Aug. Maybe she was just in a rage.
Will respond later - I obviously don't agree
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Why does it seem likely she was moved? I don't agree given there would be no reason to move her. Two officers recollections weren't 100%, none of the others commented. Which images are you looking at are they on either forums are were they obtained by yourself?
We discussed all of this recently?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9159.msg446681#msg446681
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9172.msg447177#msg447177
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9438.msg459087#msg459087
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We discussed all of this recently?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9159.msg446681#msg446681
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9172.msg447177#msg447177
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9438.msg459087#msg459087
Yes, I know, I will reply to your post later - promise. Just looking at the rubbish on the OS. We cab't reply to it there so this is as good a place as any. I am sure they neb in regularly! ()678%
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Yes, I know, I will reply to your post later - promise. Just looking at the rubbish on the OS. We cab't reply to it there so this is as good a place as any. I am sure they neb in regularly! ()678%
I had to look that up @)(++(*
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I had to look that up @)(++(*
Ha, ha! It's a northern thing I guess. @)(++(*
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Ha, ha! It's a northern thing I guess. @)(++(*
You're right though, I imagine Jezza requests the CT keep an eye on things
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David's transcript was taken from autopsy notes. Dr Vanezis trial testimony is as follows and he makes clear SC's hands were not contaminated with blood.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7970.msg386209#msg386209
If SC handled the bible why were her fingerprints not found on it?
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
Pages 12 -17 of the following contain a report from a Dr Lincoln, blood serologist, for the defense. It contains test results for all the blood stained exhibits but no mention of the bible.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=276.msg4584#msg4584
Of course JB's defense needed to chase this down but failed to do so.
This allowed the prosecution to get away with JM's testimony claiming MM placed the bible on SC's chest.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112
It's now clear SC was moved at SoC after officers found her and before she was photographed meaning there's no reliable data for SC's found position in relation to the bible.
IMO what has happened is that many people including the lawyers and judges have looked at the SoC image and have made assumptions about the bible and SC without considering the surrounding facts. The surrounding facts suggest SC did not have any contact with the bible whatsoever. The surrounding facts suggest June either carried it with her when she walked around the bed dropping it in the vicinity or it was thrown or on the bed and was effectively thrown off NB's side as June threw back the duvet to get up. I'm not convinced the stain inside the bible is a handprint or that the marks on SC's nightdress are a palm print. I'm looking at a good quality SoC image and there appears to be a void pattern above what appear to be fingerprints. The void pattern seems to have straight lines around which to my eyes could mean it was some blood transfer from the rifle and the void pattern represents a part of the rifle.
JB's lawyers at appeal claimed SC sought out the bible and the open pages represented her state of mind! Not surprisingly he was laughed out of court.
The CT claim the notes sticking out are a suicide letter from SC when in fact they were June's handwritten notes.
No one bothers with evidence just assumptions and imagination. Consequently JB gets nowhere.
David "Catty" calling...
I've just checked autopsy:
June
"There was blood staining also to both her hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
SC
"There was blood staining of her nightdress where her right wrist had been
lying. This appeared to have been transferred from her wrist. There was also blood on both sides of her right forearm which had formed trails as well as some smearing and spotting".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=666
I will add relevant excerpts from Dr V's notes and trial testimony in the near future then we can view them altogether. It's clear SC's hands were not contaminated with blood but you're not interested in the truth just promoting your book!
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David "Catty" calling...
I've just checked autopsy:
June
"There was blood staining also to both her hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
SC
"There was blood staining of her nightdress where her right wrist had been
lying. This appeared to have been transferred from her wrist. There was also blood on both sides of her right forearm which had formed trails as well as some smearing and spotting".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=666
I will add relevant excerpts from Dr V's notes and trial testimony in the near future then we can view them altogether. It's clear SC's hands were not contaminated with blood but you're not interested in the truth just promoting your book!
@)(++(*
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@)(++(*
Any ideas for a title? 8)-)))
White House Farm For Dummies!
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David "Catty" calling...
I've just checked autopsy:
June
"There was blood staining also to both her hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
SC
"There was blood staining of her nightdress where her right wrist had been
lying. This appeared to have been transferred from her wrist. There was also blood on both sides of her right forearm which had formed trails as well as some smearing and spotting".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=666
I will add relevant excerpts from Dr V's notes and trial testimony in the near future then we can view them altogether. It's clear SC's hands were not contaminated with blood but you're not interested in the truth just promoting your book!
What a plank he is! 8((()*/
He really should have listened to his Dad or stick to drawing cartoons
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Any ideas for a title? 8)-)))
White House Farm For Dummies!
'For' or By? 8(>((
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Think it should include "Gish gash" ^*&&
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I agree that Mugford comes across as totally dishonest and self serving and she had charges against her that she would want to lose. That aside I do think that her evidence gives us the truth on one major point and that is the detail of Matthew M as hitman. It would make perfect sense that a guilty Bamber having told her of his plans and keen to keep her on side would then try to distance himself from the bloody horror that must have shocked her to the core by palming it off on a hitman.
Hi Alice & welcome to the forum
I've posted this elsewhere, however
"Survivors also ‘bond’ with their abusers through intense, traumatic experiences, which makes them likely to protect their abusers due to their own sense of cognitive dissonance about the abuser’s true self. They are conflicted due to the nature of the trauma, the dependence they developed as an effort to survive, as well as the fear of retaliation from their often more powerful partners. As a result, by the time survivors speak their truth, society may doubt their credibility.
http://www.shaktiyogijournal.com/how-society-enables-malignant-narcissists-and-gaslights-their-victims/
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Just curious, what drives those who campaign for Jeremy Bamber so vociferously? Surely anyone with the slightest titter of wit can see that the evidence points to him as being the murderer?
They were complaining the other day about those who campaign against Bamber, something which is quite rare and they were asking the question as to why?? The answer is simple as I understand it. The blue forum oka the Jeremy Bamber Forum started advocating for his release based on lies and speculation and banning everyone who disagreed with them so something had to be done about it. Thus the antidote oka the red forum was born, the rest as they say is history. @)(++(*
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That's a good question and one that puzzles me too. I think some campaign because they have some sort of police grudge and want to show them up to be incompetent. Some like bandwaggons, some have only looked at very slanted and biased evidence. However I do feel that a large number choose to believe in an innocent Bamber because they are fundamentally good people and it is easier for a good, socially adjusted and empathetic human to accept mental illness as a driver rather than cold, hard and unfeeling greed. My theory anyway and I'm no psychologist!
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That's a good question and one that puzzles me too. I think some campaign because they have some sort of police grudge and want to show them up to be incompetent. Some like bandwaggons, some have only looked at very slanted and biased evidence. However I do feel that a large number choose to believe in an innocent Bamber because they are fundamentally good people and it is easier for a good, socially adjusted and empathetic human to accept mental illness as a driver rather than cold, hard and unfeeling greed. My theory anyway and I'm no psychologist!
Haha! Not so much of a question that it prevents you from hitting the nail very squarely and soundly on the head, Daisy. For some, I believe that bringing down the whole pack of playing cards, from the government -or, perhaps, even higher- is their raison d'etre. It seems anything to do with authority has to go and if they can get various high profile prisoners released on the way -and add to the ensuing chaos- so much the better. I am truly sorry for any genuine MoJ's but I don't believe Jeremy is such...............nor do I believe -as has been suggested by several- it's right to release those convicted on the grounds that some think they 'might' be innocent. I recall the local papers reporting -verbatim- what Jeremy had said, post murders. They were full how how his, just released from hospital, mentally ill sister had killed his family. At the time I believed it. It was indeed easier to blame, and subsequently forgive someone with a mental illness. It meant I could ignore the elephant in the room -adoption.
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Haha! Not so much of a question that it prevents you from hitting the nail very squarely and soundly on the head, Daisy. For some, I believe that bringing down the whole pack of playing cards, from the government -or, perhaps, even higher- is their raison d'etre. It seems anything to do with authority has to go and if they can get various high profile prisoners released on the way -and add to the ensuing chaos- so much the better. I am truly sorry for any genuine MoJ's but I don't believe Jeremy is such...............nor do I believe -as has been suggested by several- it's right to release those convicted on the grounds that some think they 'might' be innocent. I recall the local papers reporting -verbatim- what Jeremy had said, post murders. They were full how how his, just released from hospital, mentally ill sister had killed his family. At the time I believed it. It was indeed easier to blame, and subsequently forgive someone with a mental illness. It meant I could ignore the elephant in the room -adoption.
"The number of adopted children who have turned to murder is astounding, leading some psychologists to believe that some of the feelings that come with being adopted can lead to murderous thoughts. In fact, adopted men and women are 15 times more likely to kill their parents. Is there a link between being adopted and murder? If so, what are the circumstances that make an adopted child want to kill? https://m.ranker.com/list/serial-killers-who-were-adopted/ranker-crime
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/KILLER+BAMBER'S+BROKEN+BOTTLE+JAIL+ATTACK.-a061330122
"Mass killer Jeremy Bamber launched a vicious attack on a fellow prisoner with a broken bottle.
He rammed the jagged edges of a sauce bottle into his victim's face and tried to cut off his nose and ears. The inmate's scalp was also cut open.
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"The number of adopted children who have turned to murder is astounding, leading some psychologists to believe that some of the feelings that come with being adopted can lead to murderous thoughts. In fact, adopted men and women are 15 times more likely to kill their parents. Is there a link between being adopted and murder? If so, what are the circumstances that make an adopted child want to kill? https://m.ranker.com/list/serial-killers-who-were-adopted/ranker-crime
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/KILLER+BAMBER'S+BROKEN+BOTTLE+JAIL+ATTACK.-a061330122
"Mass killer Jeremy Bamber launched a vicious attack on a fellow prisoner with a broken bottle.
He rammed the jagged edges of a sauce bottle into his victim's face and tried to cut off his nose and ears. The inmate's scalp was also cut open.
I wonder what the prison psychologists and Professor Egan had to say about Bamber's attack on a fellow inmate?
"The Home Office last night pledged an inquiry in the attack by Bamber, jailed for life after slaughtering his family
What's the betting he forgot to tell them
"A convicted killer must remain classed as a highly dangerous "category A" prisoner, the High Court has ruled.
In 1986 Jeremy Bamber was convicted of murdering five members of his family at their home in Tolleshunt D'Arcy, Essex.
Bamber, serving five life sentences, had attempted to have his security status downgraded to category B.
But Mr Justice Stanley Burnton said the crimes for which Bamber was convicted were "severe in the extreme" and rejected his application.
Lawyers for Bamber applied to the High Court to quash the decision on the grounds that he posed a lower risk, and that downgrading could lead to him enjoying a less severe prison regime, even though he might never be let out of jail.
His barrister Flo Krause argued there had been a failure to carry out the necessary balancing of risk, and that Bamber was wrongly being kept in category A because he maintained his innocence.
'Killed for money'
Rejecting the application, Mr Justice Stanley Burnton conceded that convicted killers who refused to accept their guilt created a quandary when it came to assessments of how dangerous they might be.
But the judge, sitting at the High Court in London, said the crimes for which Bamber was convicted were "severe in the extreme".
The review team had not been perverse to accept psychological reports showing category A status was justified, said the judge. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7335058.stm
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9376.msg458174#msg458174
So bottom line is ALL of Jeremy Bambers assessments are based on his DENIAL, making them ALL meaningless!
But if we are to go back to before his trial, it was found by his defence team that he suffered from psychopathy.
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That's a good question and one that puzzles me too. I think some campaign because they have some sort of police grudge and want to show them up to be incompetent. Some like bandwaggons, some have only looked at very slanted and biased evidence. However I do feel that a large number choose to believe in an innocent Bamber because they are fundamentally good people and it is easier for a good, socially adjusted and empathetic human to accept mental illness as a driver rather than cold, hard and unfeeling greed. My theory anyway and I'm no psychologist!
I sometimes like to ask if guilt is so certain it would be ok to execute in a hanging era. This is a reasonable exercise to establish if a little doubt might exist, without debating the merit of capital punishment.
Obviously Bamber would have been hanged pre 1960.
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I sometimes like to ask if guilt is so certain it would be ok to execute in a hanging era. This is a reasonable exercise to establish if a little doubt might exist, without debating the merit of capital punishment.
Obviously Bamber would have been hanged pre 1960.
Don't agree with CP but do believe that Bamber is guilty, my not believing in CP doesn't influence my thoughts about Bamber.
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I'm not a supporter of CP either but in an era of hanging I think Bamber would have been getting the rope.
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I'm not a supporter of CP either but in an era of hanging I think Bamber would have been getting the rope.
Yes indeed, premeditated slaughter of a family including young children for the estate.
There would be no debate and unanimous approval by the community.
What would happen is something different. The evidence and mendacity would be properly accounted for, and intelligent people in the community would not just prevent the execution, but prove that it was murder suicide.
People on this forum should bring their best case to the wholly neutral IA thread, and see how that works.
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2931
No one argues for guilt any more in that bastion of sanity, but it's been fun watching them try in the past.
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That's what I have tried to do and every time the evidence tells me he must be guilty. The phone calls or lack of are for me the key. Nevill was I believe shot and fled to the kitchen wounded, the gunman (Jeremy) would have to reload at this point and Nevill was beaten trying to prevent this. The phone is unmarked and I see no window for him to call anyone. Jeremy's actions after supposedly getting this call defy anything a normal person would do when alerted to a family crisis of the highest order. Much as I would like to believe it was the work of a mad daughter and not a money crazed son, I can never get past these sticking points.
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Yes indeed, premeditated slaughter of a family including young children for the estate.
There would be no debate and unanimous approval by the community.
What would happen is something different. The evidence and mendacity would be properly accounted for, and intelligent people in the community would not just prevent the execution, but prove that it was murder suicide.
People on this forum should bring their best case to the wholly neutral IA thread, and see how that works.
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2931
No one argues for guilt any more in that bastion of sanity, but it's been fun watching them try in the past.
The IA board is full of people who are heavily into MOJ and seem to think everyone is innocent. They don't know this case very well and they give a platform to the more zelot laiden supporters and they hang on their every word. There is no openmindedness and as far as this case is concerned - it is NOT neutral!
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That's what I have tried to do and every time the evidence tells me he must be guilty. The phone calls or lack of are for me the key. Nevill was I believe shot and fled to the kitchen wounded, the gunman (Jeremy) would have to reload at this point and Nevill was beaten trying to prevent this. The phone is unmarked and I see no window for him to call anyone. Jeremy's actions after supposedly getting this call defy anything a normal person would do when alerted to a family crisis of the highest order. Much as I would like to believe it was the work of a mad daughter and not a money crazed son, I can never get past these sticking points.
Totally agree and his timings just don't work. Some people argue that we should ignore his timings which is remarkable!
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The IA board is full of people who are heavily into MOJ and seem to think everyone is innocent. They don't know this case very well and they give a platform to the more zelot laiden supporters and they hang on their every word. There is no openmindedness and as far as this case is concerned - it is NOT neutral!
Cases are selected that are miscarriages.
Charlie Wilkes in the last couple of years has started threads on Isaiah Fowler, Charles Grellet-Tinner and Anjelika Graswald. All 3 have been freed since. Chris Tapp is another of his cases, freed. Russ Fariah has been freed and Kirsten Lobato.
No case survives scrutiny of impartial discussion where there is no axe to grind, and Jeremy Bamber is the same sure thing, innocent. He will be freed, and the sooner the better for you taxpayers. Give him his money and jail the relatives and Mugford for perjury. It can happen.
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Cases are selected that are miscarriages.
Charlie Wilkes in the last couple of years has started threads on Isaiah Fowler, Charles Grellet-Tinner and Anjelika Graswald. All 3 have been freed since. Chris Tapp is another of his cases, freed. Russ Fariah has been freed and Kirsten Lobato.
No case survives scrutiny of impartial discussion where there is no axe to grind, and Jeremy Bamber is the same sure thing, innocent. He will be freed, and the sooner the better for you taxpayers. Give him his money and jail the relatives and Mugford for perjury. It can happen.
Perhaps, more correctly, it should be worded "Cases believed, by some, to be miscarriages, are selected".
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Perhaps, more correctly, it should be worded "Cases believed, by some, to be miscarriages, are selected".
Not really, I have seen threads started and that have died quickly, when the evidence can show a data point that can't b e skirted. A dna match, a false alibi and so on. Bamber is seen to be a certainty where it looks just like a suicide. Working from there, all the objections drop away. Sheila was never in a fight because she shot one adult,then another then the kids, and then herself. So look at her found state in that light. It couldn't be plainer.
Jeremy has a fine alibi and is forensically clean.
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Not really, I have seen threads started and that have died quickly, when the evidence can show a data point that can't be skirted. A dna match, a false alibi and so on. The Bamber case is seen to be a certainty where it looks just like a suicide. Working from there, all the objections drop away. Sheila was never in a fight because she shot one adult, then another then the kids, and then herself. So look at her found state in that light. It couldn't be plainer.
Jeremy has a fine alibi and is forensically clean.
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Cases are selected that are miscarriages.
Charlie Wilkes in the last couple of years has started threads on Isaiah Fowler, Charles Grellet-Tinner and Anjelika Graswald. All 3 have been freed since. Chris Tapp is another of his cases, freed. Russ Fariah has been freed and Kirsten Lobato.
No case survives scrutiny of impartial discussion where there is no axe to grind, and Jeremy Bamber is the same sure thing, innocent. He will be freed, and the sooner the better for you taxpayers. Give him his money and jail the relatives and Mugford for perjury. It can happen.
I'm not sure why you use Charlie to back up your arguments, no one knows who he is. Also, he didn't start a thread on Jeremy Bamber and none of the cases you mention above belong to Charlie!
Bamber won't be freed and he won't get any money.
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Not really, I have seen threads started and that have died quickly, when the evidence can show a data point that can't b e skirted. A dna match, a false alibi and so on. Bamber is seen to be a certainty where it looks just like a suicide. Working from there, all the objections drop away. Sheila was never in a fight because she shot one adult,then another then the kids, and then herself. So look at her found state in that light. It couldn't be plainer.
Jeremy has a fine alibi and is forensically clean.
Forgive me for stating the obvious but I'm certain you'll agree that from such a vast distance it would be very surprising if you and your fellow countrymen got the all the facts right regarding this case -indeed, there have been times when I've wondered which case is being spoken about- and if ones bases opinions on those things one believes to be facts, as opposed to those things which are known to be facts, inevitably, one gets it wrong.
Jeremy's alibi, once it's examined, is by no means "fine" and as no one examined any part of his person or his attire for about a month, post murders, it can hardly be stated, with certainty, that he was "forensically clean".
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Not really, I have seen threads started and that have died quickly, when the evidence can show a data point that can't b e skirted. A dna match, a false alibi and so on. Bamber is seen to be a certainty where it looks just like a suicide. Working from there, all the objections drop away. Sheila was never in a fight because she shot one adult,then another then the kids, and then herself. So look at her found state in that light. It couldn't be plainer.
Jeremy has a fine alibi and is forensically clean.
It looks 'too much' like a suicide - that's the problem!
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Here we go with the third case where multi homicide suicide follows the pattern.
"The estranged father of 4 children says
He said he was "filled with tremendous sadness" over the loss of his children, but noted they at least "died peacefully in their beds"."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12050715
Robin Bain also tried to kill his sleeping children. Anyone who sees no psychological and existential link in these 3 cases has a different agenda.
I hope this case helps the English students on Bamber. I see there is a new Pakistani home secretary.
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If I can spell this out, people who shoot sleeping children in their beds understand their own death is the only redemption. It is essentially mandated, the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Jeremy Bamber could never shoot the children and then be confident of the trajectory shot to psychotic Sheila, he could rather be confident it would never look like suicide, plan fail.
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If I can spell this out, people who shoot sleeping children in their beds understand their own death is the only redemption. It is essentially mandated, the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Jeremy Bamber could never shoot the children and then be confident of the trajectory shot to psychotic Sheila, he could rather be confident it would never look like suicide, plan fail.
His plan DID fail. Hence why he's where he is and will stay where he is!
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I think its fairly clear that the boys were shot first - children awake and screaming and running is not a scenario Jeremy wanted to face. I guess maybe even he didn't have the bottle to shoot six year olds obviously terrified and crying.
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If I can spell this out, people who shoot sleeping children in their beds understand their own death is the only redemption. It is essentially mandated, the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Jeremy Bamber could never shoot the children and then be confident of the trajectory shot to psychotic Sheila, he could rather be confident it would never look like suicide, plan fail.
As you don't know JB, you weren't there, and -excuse me- there have been 'facts' you refer to, that those of us would dispute who have rather more knowledge of the 'players' than yourself, ergo, it's wildly sweeping to state "Jeremy Bamber could never shoot the children and then be confident of the trajectory shot to psychotic Sheila, he could rather be confident it would never look like suicide, plan fail". Has there ever been a case of one person deliberately shooting another who HASN'T been confident of getting away with it?
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If I can spell this out, people who shoot sleeping children in their beds understand their own death is the only redemption. It is essentially mandated, the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Jeremy Bamber could never shoot the children and then be confident of the trajectory shot to psychotic Sheila, he could rather be confident it would never look like suicide, plan fail.
Didn't you miss something?
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The IA board is full of people who are heavily into MOJ and seem to think everyone is innocent. They don't know this case very well and they give a platform to the more zelot laiden supporters and they hang on their every word. There is no openmindedness and as far as this case is concerned - it is NOT neutral!
The board features 154 cases under 'member submissions'. In terms of interest generated by pages of posts the numbers are as follows:
139 cases = 0 pages
10 cases = 1 - 10 pages
2 cases = 11 - 20 pages
1 case = 50 - 60 pages
2 cases = 100 pages plus
Those that fall into the 100 pages plus category are JB and Scott Peterson at 103 pages and 131 pages respectively.
There is a page for SH:
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1656#p31199
Given that WHF involves a firearm it's interesting to hear the views of Americans where gun crime is an everyday occurrence unlike UK.
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The board features 154 cases under 'member submissions'. In terms of interest generated by pages of posts the numbers are as follows:
139 cases = 0 pages
10 cases = 1 - 10 pages
2 cases = 11 - 20 pages
1 case = 50 - 60 pages
2 cases = 100 pages plus
Those that fall into the 100 pages plus category are JB and Scott Peterson at 103 pages and 131 pages respectively.
There is a page for SH:
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1656#p31199
Given that WHF involves a firearm it's interesting to hear the views of Americans where gun crime is an everyday occurrence unlike UK.
I find these statistics completely meaningless amd indeed bias.
And I've never heard of Scott Peterson?
However, there have been numerous forums discussing alledged MOJ's - this forum is the second forum of its kind; the first was shut down by Jackiepreece.
In relation to some of the forums I've seen in the past, the Bamber case was the least discussed. In fact I do not recall it being discussed apart from on the Bamber forum and here. Though there are other cases here that appear discussed far more than Bamber!
There was a forum called the Shirley McKie forum and some others that no longer appear available on the net. Again Bambers was not discussed on either of these forums, or at least in any detail that I recall.
He's a nonentity
Trudi Benjamin has less than 1000 followers on Twitter; hardly significant.
FYI - The Simon Hall case was at one time discussed more on the Bamber forum than the Bamber case, so not sure of the relevance of the link you've posted?
The general public as a whole believe Jeremy Bamber to be guilty and see him as a coward for maintaining innocence - too afraid to admit to his crimes/wrongdoings. That's the fact of the matter.
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Jeremy Bambers case is a lost cause.
He's slipped up numerous times over the years and sealed his fate.
No amount of campaigning or petitions will move this case forward.
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I find these statistics completely meaningless amd indeed bias.
And I've never heard of Scott Peterson?
However, there have been numerous forums discussing alledged MOJ's - this forum is the second forum of its kind; the first was shut down by Jackiepreece.
In relation to some of the forums I've seen in the past, the Bamber case was the least discussed. In fact I do not recall it being discussed apart from on the Bamber forum and here. Though there are other cases here that appear discussed far more than Bamber!
There was a forum called the Shirley McKie forum and some others that no longer appear available on the net. Again Bambers was not discussed on either of these forums, or at least in any detail that I recall.
He's a nonentity
Trudi Benjamin has less than 1000 followers on Twitter; hardly significant.
FYI - The Simon Hall case was at one time discussed more on the Bamber forum than the Bamber case, so not sure of the relevance of the link you've posted?
The general public as a whole believe Jeremy Bamber to be guilty and see him as a coward for maintaining innocence - too afraid to admit to his crimes/wrongdoings. That's the fact of the matter.
Shut down by Jackiepreece ? I thought David was the Bamber park warden.
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I find these statistics completely meaningless amd indeed bias.
And I've never heard of Scott Peterson?
However, there have been numerous forums discussing alledged MOJ's - this forum is the second forum of its kind; the first was shut down by Jackiepreece.
In relation to some of the forums I've seen in the past, the Bamber case was the least discussed. In fact I do not recall it being discussed apart from on the Bamber forum and here. Though there are other cases here that appear discussed far more than Bamber!
There was a forum called the Shirley McKie forum and some others that no longer appear available on the net. Again Bambers was not discussed on either of these forums, or at least in any detail that I recall.
He's a nonentity
Trudi Benjamin has less than 1000 followers on Twitter; hardly significant.
FYI - The Simon Hall case was at one time discussed more on the Bamber forum than the Bamber case, so not sure of the relevance of the link you've posted?
The general public as a whole believe Jeremy Bamber to be guilty and see him as a coward for maintaining innocence - too afraid to admit to his crimes/wrongdoings. That's the fact of the matter.
I said 139 cases generated 0 pages of posts which doesnt make sense! I should have said 139 cases generated less than a page of posts. Not really statistics just interest measured by pages of posts. The fact remains JB's case has generated the most interest measured by pages of posts aside from Scott Peterson (US case).
Injustice Anywhere is run by an American and domained in US. Posters are from across the globe. Americans view the Bamber case very differently due to widespread availability of firearms in US. They have a lot of experience of small children picking up firearms with fatal consequence and see the arguments about SC not being able to use the rifle as very weak.