UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 14, 2018, 05:02:47 PM
-
Summary gunshot injuries sustained upstairs from pathology report:
1. Lip
2. Jaw
3. Shoulder
4. Elbow/Chest
- 1 and 2 could have been life threatening if other injuries hadn't supervened
- Produced "extreme pain"
- Ability to speak "completely impaired"
- "Substantial" blood loss internally and externally
- Ability to swallow "seriously impeded"
- Ability to use left arm "totally impaired"
Summary non-gunshot injuries most likely sustained in the kitchen:
- Fractures to skull
- Bruising to both eyes not solely associated with fractures to skull but blows from blunt object
- Laceration to right side of nose, 1 blow in association with injury to right eye above
- Bruising and grazing to bridge of nose. Same blow as laceration to right side of nose
- Bruising forehead 1 each side
- Bruising right cheek and temple
- Bruising and abrasions left cheek and temple
- *Laceration right parietal region "severe superficial skin injury"
- Laceration left parietal region 1/4"
- Bruising ulna right forearm
* Pathologist said he was unable to gauge the force used other than for this wound which he described as being inflicted with "considerable force" albeit it caused a laceration wound.
The above non-gunshot wounds were probably not capable of generating blood spatter.
Aside the fractures to the skull the other wounds amounted to bruises and lacerations.
It is often said SC would not have been capable of inflicting these injuries. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by this ie mentally, physically or both but I don't see anything here that SC was unable to inflict. SC was normal build and 5' 7.5" tall. Conversely I think if JB was responsible he would have achieved fatal gsw's to NB's head (upstairs) and any non-gunshot injuries would be more severe due to the greater physical strength possessed by men.
-
That all seems to show that the shot that damaged the larynx and stopped Nevill speaking must have been sustained upstairs and before he entered the kitchen. If so he could not have made the supposed phone call. To my mind spatter and silencers are irrelevant - look at the calls.
-
That all seems to show that the shot that damaged the larynx and stopped Nevill speaking must have been sustained upstairs and before he entered the kitchen. If so he could not have made the supposed phone call. To my mind spatter and silencers are irrelevant - look at the calls.
If NB called JB, I think he did, then it was from the kitchen before any shots were fired.
What about the calls? IMO to say he/she would do this, that or the other is subjective and just supposition based on what others think they would or wouldn't do.
-
Summary gunshot injuries sustained upstairs from pathology report:
1. Lip
2. Jaw
3. Shoulder
4. Elbow/Chest
- 1 and 2 could have been life threatening if other injuries hadn't supervened
- Produced "extreme pain"
- Ability to speak "completely impaired"
- "Substantial" blood loss internally and externally
- Ability to swallow "seriously impeded"
- Ability to use left arm "totally impaired"
Summary non-gunshot injuries most likely sustained in the kitchen:
- Fractures to skull
- Bruising to both eyes not solely associated with fractures to skull but blows from blunt object
- Laceration to right side of nose, 1 blow in association with injury to right eye above
- Bruising and grazing to bridge of nose. Same blow as laceration to right side of nose
- Bruising forehead 1 each side
- Bruising right cheek and temple
- Bruising and abrasions left cheek and temple
- *Laceration right parietal region "severe superficial skin injury"
- Laceration left parietal region 1/4"
- Bruising ulna right forearm
* Pathologist said he was unable to gauge the force used other than for this wound which he described as being inflicted with "considerable force" albeit it caused a laceration wound.
The above non-gunshot wounds were probably not capable of generating blood spatter.
Aside the fractures to the skull the other wounds amounted to bruises and lacerations.
It is often said SC would not have been capable of inflicting these injuries. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by this ie mentally, physically or both but I don't see anything here that SC was unable to inflict. SC was normal build and 5' 7.5" tall. Conversely I think if JB was responsible he would have achieved fatal gsw's to NB's head (upstairs) and any non-gunshot injuries would be more severe due to the greater physical strength possessed by men.
Aren't you now being subjective? Bamber WANTED (edited from original post) the crime to look disorganised and as though Sheila were responsible. Execution style head shots would have raised questions.
-
Aren't you now being subjective? Bamber wasn't the crime to look disorganised and as though Sheila were responsible. Execution style head shots would have raised questions.
I quite agree Caroline!
-
I believe Bamber wanted Nevill to die in the main bedroom. As June did. He could then put a phone upstairs & arrange Nevill or June to make it look like a phone call had been made to him. Which would not be hard to arrange.
Two of Nevill's upstairs shots were head shots. Nevill simply woke up & moved as the 3rd & 4th shots were being fired. Nevill got downstairs where Bamber didn't hesitate in violently hitting him multiple times.
-
I believe Bamber wanted Nevill to die in the main bedroom. As June did. He could then put a phone upstairs & arrange Nevill or June to make it look like a phone call had been made to him. Which would not be hard to arrange.
Two of Nevill's upstairs shots were head shots. Nevill simply woke up & moved as the 3rd & 4th shots were being fired. Nevill got downstairs where Bamber didn't hesitate in violently hitting him multiple times.
Good theory!
-
Aren't you now being subjective? Bamber WANTED (edited from original post) the crime to look disorganised and as though Sheila were responsible. Execution style head shots would have raised questions.
There's a crucial difference between JB v SC:
If JB was responsible he had 3 adults to murder one of which needed to look like a suicide. And according to the prosecution the adult victims were spread over 2 rooms.
If SC was responsible she had 2 adults to murder and could take her own life as and when it suited. And according to the prosecution the adult victims were in 1 room.
If SC was responsible her task was arguably much easier.
If JB was responsible,a marksman at Greshams, he had to make the scene look amateurish and manic; a fine balancing act between this and maintaining control. He could not run the risk of being over powered by the adults. Or one of the adults arming themselves with one of the other firearms. Or raising the alarm from within. Or fleeing WHF to raise the alarm.
The prosecution case is that JB entered WHF under stealth and opened fire on his parents in their bedroom. This being the case he would have taken them out in the bedroom. A few crazy shots and then moved in for the kill with shots to the head. This would look amateurish by way of random shots hitting and injuring and then going for the head when the victims were subdued. This would be over in seconds then swiftly across the landing into SC's bedroom killing her in her own bed.
-
There's a crucial difference between JB v SC:
If JB was responsible he had 3 adults to murder one of which needed to look like a suicide. And according to the prosecution the adult victims were spread over 2 rooms.
If SC was responsible she had 2 adults to murder and could take her own life as and when it suited. And according to the prosecution the adult victims were in 1 room.
If SC was responsible her task was arguably much easier.
If JB was responsible,a marksman at Greshams, he had to make the scene look amateurish and manic; a fine balancing act between this and maintaining control. He could not run the risk of being over powered by the adults. Or one of the adults arming themselves with one of the other firearms. Or raising the alarm from within. Or fleeing WHF to raise the alarm.
The prosecution case is that JB entered WHF under stealth and opened fire on his parents in their bedroom. This being the case he would have taken them out in the bedroom. A few crazy shots and then moved in for the kill with shots to the head. This would look amateurish by way of random shots hitting and injuring and then going for the head when the victims were subdued. This would be over in seconds then swiftly across the landing into SC's bedroom killing her in her own bed.
Just because that is their case, doesn't mean that it happened like that. I don't think it did. He couldn't kill SC in her own bed, that wouldn't look like suicide. It had to look as though she's been on the rampage.
-
Bamber would have known whether he could easily control Sheila. He had sat at the dinner table with her around 5 hours earlier.
He realised he could & got back to his cottage to ring Julie to say 'tonights the night'.
-
Can only think of one instance where Bamber may have unintentionally woken Sheila prior to it being her turn to be shot -
Entering WHF. No one woke - NO.
Going upstairs. No one woke - NO.
Shooting the twins. Silencer attached. No one woke - NO.
Shooting June. Silencer attached. June asleep & nullified from 5 bullets - NO.
Shooting Nevill. Silencer attached. Nevill shot in throat & 3 more times. Nevill went straight downstairs. No raised voices. - NO.
Kitchen fight. Fight was downstairs in a big house. Was brutal but over quickly. SLIM CHANCE.
----------
After the kitchen fight, Bamber had the option of killing Sheila. Everyone else was negated.
Sheila would have been in bed, asleep, under sedation & behind a closed door/walls. So very unlikely she woke, as the evidence shows.
-
If NB called JB, I think he did, then it was from the kitchen before any shots were fired.
What about the calls? IMO to say he/she would do this, that or the other is subjective and just supposition based on what others think they would or wouldn't do.
According to JB NB told him Sheila had gone crazy and had a gun,,, if that were the case why wasn't NB disarming her rather than telephoning JB while she was presumably in the house at the time going crazy with a gun?
-
According to JB NB told him Sheila had gone crazy and had a gun,,, if that were the case why wasn't NB disarming her rather than telephoning JB while she was presumably in the house at the time going crazy with a gun?
I guess for the same reasons PS Bews, first respondent at WHF, didn't break-in but called for back up instead.
-
Nevill Bamber knew Sheila like the back of his hand... Sgt Bews didn't.... sooooo simple!
-
Nevill Bamber knew Sheila like the back of his hand... Sgt Bews didn't.... sooooo simple!
SC's male friend Freddie thought the same until he witnessed a psychotic SC. He then feared for his safety, safety of others and SC herself. Did NB have face-to-face experience of SC in a psychotic state or whatever altered state of mind she was in?
-
I just do not believe that confronted with a psychotic SB that the action NB takes is to go downstairs and phone JB leaving SB upstairs with the other more vulnerable members of the family, and she having a gun in her hand, that does not ring true imo
-
I guess for the same reasons PS Bews, first respondent at WHF, didn't break-in but called for back up instead.
that's a totally different scenario, he was a police officer with protocol to follow , NB was not.
-
There are a couple of theories of what Sheila was doing when Nevill said his 11 words to Bamber.
David believes Nevill phoned Bamber after Sheila started shooting the twins. JackieD says Sheila was 'marching around WHF'.
Most supporters refuse to give an opinion.
-
I just do not believe that confronted with a psychotic SB that the action NB takes is to go downstairs and phone JB leaving SB upstairs with the other more vulnerable members of the family, and she having a gun in her hand, that does not ring true imo
Imo you're right not to believe NB went downstairs to phone JB as all the forensic and pathological evidence supports NB and SC downstairs. NB calls JB: "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun". Meanwhile SC goes upstairs and inflicts 5 or 6 not immediately fatal gsw's on June. NB puts the phone on worktop and goes upstairs where SC inflicts 2 not immediately fatal gsw's to his face whilst he is stood on the landing. NB turns to retreat downstairs and SC inflicts 2 further gsw's: shoulder and elbow/chest whilst NB is on the stairs. NB gets as far as the kitchen with SC in pursuit but with an empty rifle she uses it to wield blows on a very badly injured NB. NB ceases to move and SC reloads to inflict the 4 gsw's to NB's head.
The above is all supported by the totality of forensic and pathological evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, gsw trajectories and wound tracks.
-
that's a totally different scenario, he was a police officer with protocol to follow , NB was not.
I believe the protocol in such circumstances is based on protection of self and others which I guess is common sense. Don't see how it would be different for NB?
Some will say well why didn't NB call police. I don't know why he didn't. Maybe he was ashamed he had a mentally ill adopted daughter. Adoption and mental illness were taboo subjects 30 odd years ago. Maybe he didn't want the authorities turning up at WHF for whatever reason(s) eg opium poppies grown at WHF supposedly under licence for the pharma industry and/or firearms not kept as they should be.
-
I believe the protocol in such circumstances is based on protection of self and others which I guess is common sense. Don't see how it would be different for NB?
Some will say well why didn't NB call police. I don't know why he didn't. Maybe he was ashamed he had a mentally ill adopted daughter. Adoption and mental illness were taboo subjects 30 odd years ago. Maybe he didn't want the authorities turning up at WHF for whatever reason(s) eg opium poppies grown at WHF supposedly under licence for the pharma industry and/or firearms not kept as they should be.
Nevil never got the chance.
-
I believe the protocol in such circumstances is based on protection of self and others which I guess is common sense. Don't see how it would be different for NB?
Some will say well why didn't NB call police. I don't know why he didn't. Maybe he was ashamed he had a mentally ill adopted daughter. Adoption and mental illness were taboo subjects 30 odd years ago. Maybe he didn't want the authorities turning up at WHF for whatever reason(s) eg opium poppies grown at WHF supposedly under licence for the pharma industry and/or firearms not kept as they should be.
NB would have been to protect his family then himself imo he was not in the same position as an independent police officer
-
Nevil never got the chance.
I think this the more likely explanation
-
Imo you're right not to believe NB went downstairs to phone JB as all the forensic and pathological evidence supports NB and SC downstairs. NB calls JB: "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun". Meanwhile SC goes upstairs and inflicts 5 or 6 not immediately fatal gsw's on June. NB puts the phone on worktop and goes upstairs where SC inflicts 2 not immediately fatal gsw's to his face whilst he is stood on the landing. NB turns to retreat downstairs and SC inflicts 2 further gsw's: shoulder and elbow/chest whilst NB is on the stairs. NB gets as far as the kitchen with SC in pursuit but with an empty rifle she uses it to wield blows on a very badly injured NB. NB ceases to move and SC reloads to inflict the 4 gsw's to NB's head.
The above is all supported by the totality of forensic and pathological evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, gsw trajectories and wound tracks.
Only if you believe Sheila did it , the above could equally fit if JB did it