UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on February 07, 2013, 06:30:19 PM
-
On the Jeremy Bamber official website Jeremy writes...
Sheila Caffell was found with an open Bible by her side. The pages were covered in bloodied fingerprints. Document's show the Bible was tested and forensics were positive for prints, but the owner of the prints was never disclosed. Could this be because they were the bloodied fingerprints of Sheila Caffell?
Hardly likely as Sheila didn't have any blood on her fingertips.
In fact, even if by some miracle these had turned out to be Sheila's bloodied prints on the Bible, that in itself proves absolutely nothing. If someone was intent upon framing Sheila all they had to do was to put her fingerprints on the Bible after she was dead. Yet more smoke and mirrors.
(http://i.imgur.com/1MxGjgA.jpg)
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/
-
The Jeremy Bamber official website also offers the following in relation to the Bible and the blood stains thereon...
At Jeremy’s trial in 1986 no evidence was called relating to the Bible that was discovered next to Sheila. After Jeremy’s legal team reviewed the note that was protruding from between the pages it could also be seen that a piece of crocheted material was between or underneath one of its pages. Essex Police concealed the existence of this note
Mr Terzeon was Jeremy’s Solicitor in 1986, he requested to see photographs of the Bible next to Sheila. On a visit to Witham Police station he had requested to see the master bundle of photographs of the crime scene but no pictures of the Bible were given for him to view and he was told there were none. It is odd then, that years later these pictures were eventually released by Essex police.
(http://i.imgur.com/yov5Gg2.jpg)
In 2005 research began into the photographs. No mention was made in the incident property register of this note or the cloth in the photographs. Essex Police should have carried out forensic analysis on these articles. DI Cook’s finger print tests on items found at WHF makes no mention of the Bible or the other items being fingerprinted. As Jeremy was accused of staging the crime scene, surely a vital piece of evidence might have been found on these articles? Mysteriously this document (http://twitpic.com/8cndr7) has surfaced which tells us the articles were in fact fingerprinted but whose prints were on the bible? There is no possibility that they were Jeremy's because the prosecution would have used this at trial. The Bible was either returned to Jeremy’s relatives the Boutflour's or destroyed as part of the destruction of exhibits during 1996 despite a court order to preserve them.
There were a number of bloody fingerprints on certain pages of the Bible as you can see in the pictures, so who did these belong to?
The paper protruding from the bible shows the words ‘Love one another’. These words come from the passage John Chapter 13. We know that according to Dr Ferguson (Sheila’s Psychiatrist) Sheila’s mental illness was often influenced by conflicts of good and evil and ideas of the devil being in people as well as her being obsessed about God and religion.
-
To see a report by Dr Gillingham of Oxford University on the significant pages of the Bible click M2RiMjgtYjRkYi00MDMxLTg4NWEtYzMyMmYzYWZhZGVh/edit?hl=en&pli=1]here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5DLsf0UggyWYT[Name removed).
To read PS Adam’s statement about the Bible and Sheila Caffell’s body being moved after the tactical firearms officers had left the house at 8.45am click here. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5DLsf0UggyWZDZhNzc0NTktMTAwMC00NjRmLWE3MjAtOWQ3OTk0OWQ1ODdh/edit?hl=en&pli=1)
(http://i.imgur.com/qBzw8Br.jpg)
-
It would have been very easy to put her bloodied fingerprints on the Bible, it would prove nothing.
-
John
Are you serious, can I really put in a freedom of information request in and they have to tell me how much they have spent on the Bamber case????
Regarding the reconstruction it would OBVIOUSLY not be at WHF but something mocked up in an outdoor studio like Shepperton or Elstree with room sizes identical.
Tv producer do projects like this all the time.
It's needs a documentary maker who is very popular at the moment and ITV are quite happy to throw whatever money they need at it.
-
John
Are you serious, can I really put in a freedom of information request in and they have to tell me how much they have spent on the Bamber case????
Regarding the reconstruction it would OBVIOUSLY not be at WHF but something mocked up in an outdoor studio like Shepperton or Elstree with room sizes identical.
Tv producer do projects like this all the time.
It's needs a documentary maker who is very popular at the moment and ITV are quite happy to throw whatever money they need at it.
Yes jack, the CCRC is a public body and as such are open to FOI requests. They may charge a nominal fee however for the work done.
As far as a documentary or a reconstruction is concerned we're on it! 8(0(*
-
And...the bible. June was well-known for annotating her bible. And writing little homilies for her bible class. But apparently Sheila wrote the note that was visible. And had enough bible-learning to leave it open at a relevant passage. (Check the bible out - almost every verse relates to gloom and doom.) Then, Sheila had to close the bible, then open it again (blood stains.) After the first shot that left her stunned and almost dead. She wasn't holding the bible, it wasn't on her chest, it was placed on her upper arm. The upper arm which would have convulsed after she'd shot herself.
And can we please bear in mind that her arm was laid on her abdomen, which would be the last part of her to cool, so it's quite possible that her arm was malleable for quite some time after she died. And there was clear livor mortis on her legs.
-
I posted a few days ago that CAL's book confirms all documents previously held under PII have now been released to JB. Anyway so much for my p*****g in the wind as it seems JB might have struck gold! According to Blue there's an official document confirming a bloody fingerprint on the bible belonging to SC which states "hard luck Jeremy"!
I'm finding this a little hard to believe &%+((£ I wonder if Adam or John might upload it here? 8**8:/: 8**8:/:
-
Or have they? They said everything had been released previously. That's the trouble with a dodgy opaque system: you can't trust it.
-
Or have they? They said everything had been released previously. That's the trouble with a dodgy opaque system: you can't trust it.
I'm inclined to think if any of the documents incriminated the investigating authorities they will be long gone ie destroyed rather than filed away under PII. Police notebooks, witness statement stationary etc doesn't seem to have been numbered so it could easily be destroyed and no one would be any the wiser. Same for the hand-written reports from the expert witnesses and general written communication from FSS some of which appears to be on FSS stationary and other written communication on EP stationery! Its all very sloppy.
-
My understanding is that they opened a new case file when the investigation changed to murder and they have released all the PII infirmation from the murder investigation, but they are arguing that the initial investigation when they thought it was suicide is a separate case and they don't have to disclose what's in the PII file for that &%+((£
It can be quite amazing what people don't throw out in case it comes handy: handy for persuading other people to do what you want, handy for covering your arse and proving someone else was to blame, handy as a form of security. I bet there's a private copy of much of this case in someone's attic.
-
According to RWB's WS's June would often read the bible in bed. It seems likely the blue bible belonged to June and was normally kept in or on her bedside cabinet?
We know a badly injured and bleeding June was able to get out of bed and walk from her side to NB's side possibly with the intention of using the phone normally situated on NB's bedside cabinet.
We know June was bleeding NB's side of the bed from the blood stains on the carpet and blue socks which when tested corresponded with her A antigen and AK2-1 enzyme.
We know June was deeply religious. Did June walk round the bed holding the bible, due to her strong faith and the dire circumstances she found herself in, and as she started losing consciousness did she drop the bible and continue walking back to the main bedroom door empty handed where she collapsed?
If June dropped the bible did it fall like a semi-erect tent in front of the door leading to the box room? Did the perp then cause the bible to close and stand on its side by opening the door to the main bedroom from the box room causing bloodstaind pages to touch and part mirror some blood staining? Did the perp then close the door to the box room causing the bible to revert back to its semi-erect tent like position as photographed at SoC?
&%+((£
-
The only semi-erect tent I'm familiar with is the one formed by my duvet when dreaming about Ana Moura.
As I suggested before, maybe June dropped the bible open at pages 656/657 onto the bedclothes when she was shot in the neck. After feeling the wound and as she was trying to get out of bed, her bloodied right-hand palm came into contact with the top of page 657, together with a couple of small spatters lower down on page 656 and the book's fore-edge. The bible then closed on itself, perhaps through agitation of the duvet/bed clothes (or even later by Bamber himself as he got hold of it after the blood had partially dried), which caused the faint mirror images to appear. When Sheila was dead, he re-opened the bible at the stained pages and placed it on the bloody carpet near her arm, hoping the police would think this was what caused them... until Caroline came along 30 years later to show otherwise.
-
The only semi-erect tent I'm familiar with is the one formed by my duvet when dreaming about Ana Moura.
As I suggested before, maybe June dropped the bible open at pages 656/657 onto the bedclothes when she was shot in the neck. After feeling the wound and as she was trying to get out of bed, her bloodied right-hand palm came into contact with the top of page 657, together with a couple of small spatters lower down on page 656 and the book's fore-edge. The bible then closed on itself, perhaps through agitation of the duvet/bed clothes (or even later by Bamber himself as he got hold of it after the blood had partially dried), which caused the faint mirror images to appear. When Sheila was dead, he re-opened the bible at the stained pages and placed it on the bloody carpet near her arm, hoping the police would think this was what caused them... until Caroline came along 30 years later to show otherwise.
Lol I knew I had heard the expression semi-erect tent before!
Yes that's another possibility.
I didn't really understand Caro's bible/hand print at the time and took the opportunity to reread the thread. I'm still not sure I get it. Based on the image in post #1 of this thread I can't really see a hand print? It looks to me more like the box room door has caught the corner of the bible and dragged it underneath the door when it was opened causing blood to smear from the carpet and/or June's wounds. But wouldn't there be a corresponding image, or some sort of smearing, on the carpet?
-
Lol I knew I had heard the expression semi-erect tent before!
Yes that's another possibility.
I didn't really understand Caro's bible/hand print at the time and took the opportunity to reread the thread. I'm still not sure I get it. Based on the image in post #1 of this thread I can't really see a hand print? It looks to me more like the box room door has caught the corner of the bible and dragged it underneath the door when it was opened causing blood to smear from the carpet and/or June's wounds. But wouldn't there be a corresponding image, or some sort of smearing, on the carpet?
Refer to pages 174-5 of Deviant. At the top of page 657 of the bible, the ball of the right-hand thumb supposedly made the dark circular blob (bottom left), with the little finger forming the dark impression (top right). The Boxroom door had nothing to do with it, as shown by the absence of any stain on the carpet anywhere near, imo.
-
Refer to pages 174-5 of Deviant. At the top of page 657 of the bible, the ball of the right-hand thumb supposedly made the dark circular blob (bottom left), with the little finger forming the dark impression (top right). The Boxroom door had nothing to do with it, as shown by the absence of any stain on the carpet anywhere near, imo.
Yes I read the relevant secion in Deviant eariler today but I'm still not sure I understand the significance of it all?
It doesn't appear the police/lab even attempted to analyse the blood, I wonder why?
The CT are claiming the note poking out the top might be a suicide note. And yet there's enough clear handwriting that the top line can be read so surely JB can distinguish between June and SC's handwriting?
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
-
Yes I read the relevant secion in Deviant eariler today but I'm still not sure I understand the significance of it all?
It doesn't appear the police/lab even attempted to analyse the blood, I wonder why?
The CT are claiming the note poking out the top might be a suicide note. And yet there's enough clear handwriting that the top line can be read so surely JB can distinguish between June and SC's handwriting?
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible (http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible)
According to CAL, page 408, the bible was handed back to the family in 2006 and the note was in June's handwriting.
-
According to CAL, page 408, the bible was handed back to the family in 2006 and the note was in June's handwriting.
I wonder why the bible wasn't forensically analysed and an attempt made to group the blood. The wallpaper was tested and indicative results matched it to NB's 'O' antigen although it didn't meet the labs internal standards for a definitive conclusion. And yet it seems the blood staining was much smaller than that on the bible? Both would have similar porosity.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=229;image
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=231
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
So many loose ends just left hanging by JB's defence (yes that's you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin. If it transpires that the pair of you were largely repsonsible for sending an innocent man to jail for 30 plus years and you refuse to accept responsibility and make a public apology I will chain myself naked to Downing St railings until you do or a nice fireman cuts me loose!)
-
A newbie here... having just read Carol Ann Lee's book about the murder and studying the posts here, I see that June's bible was returned to her family in 2006. The stiff card in the bible had the words " Love One Another". In my mind this was the heading from the bible passage. June then wrote her own interpretation of these words underneath.... "A determination always to act in the others' best interest, whether we feel good or not, whether we like them or not. It is an act of will, commandment to obey. Be determined to be loving and kind to every person you meet whether you like them or not. Lord Jesus in Thy mercy, teach me to love for Thy name's sake, help me to live and speak as a Christian, no matter what others may think".
I therefore cannot see any suggested connection here with this being a suicide note from Sheila. As for the crochet piece at the front of the bible, it has a long tassle so probably a bookmark.
-
There are lots of questions about the alleged suicide note:
How did Sheila write this in the dark ?
If she didn't write it in the dark, where did she write it ?
Why wasn't Sheila seen writing it by the police, if written in a room with lights on ?
Why did she write it and put it inside a bible, where it may never be read ?
If the police were aware of the suicide note, why was Bamber charged ?
If Sheila just wanted to kill herself, and wrote the suicide note before the massacre, why didn't she just quietly kill herself. Attempting this while Neville is awake is not the appropriate time. No one needed to wake up or even be at WHF.
If Sheila just wanted to committ suicide, how did it turn into a full blown massacre ?
If the suicide note was written beforehand, and Sheila wanted everyone dead, why didn't she attempt an execution like massacre while everyone was asleep. Rather than let Neville make one/two phone calls ?
Did the crime scene investigators see the suicide note and disclose it to the police ? If so why wasn't Bamber or other relations told about this ?
If it was Sheila's plan to commit suicide, do supporters agree with the judge, that the alleged conversation about fostering that night, is not relevant ?
If Sheila's plan was to kill herself and all immediate family members (except Bamber), who was the suicide note supposed to be left for ?
If Sheila went into an unplanned rage and killed everyone, was she then calm enough to write a suicide note ?
If Sheila read the bible and wrote the suicide note in another room, where there were lights on, why was the bible and suicide note not left in this room ?
The page the bible was open on, is apparently what people read prior to suicide. Does this page say a suicide note must be written ?
If the bible and suicide note were read & written in another room where there was light, why didn't Sheila also kill herself in this room ?
Should a suicide note not been shown to Bamber straight away ? He was the closest surviving relatives to everyone and the suicide note may be addressed to him.
If the bible just fell on the floor, next to Sheila, as claimed, do people still believe a suicide note was in it ?
Should a suicide note not have been shown to CC straight away. Together with Bamber he was the closest surviving relative.
Do supporters and guilters disagree with the campaign team and believe there was no suicide note. No suicide does not make Bamber guilty.
When did Bamber first make the suicide note allegation ?
If Sheila did write the suicide note in the dark, why is the pen not by the bible ?
It was June's bible, so is it not likely to be her notes in it ? She did read the bible constantly. Is this not the most logical explanation ?
If Sheila spontaneously killed everyone in a rage, would she have pre planned in her mind what a suicide note would say ? Some people may take months preparing their suicide notes. Sheila had hardly any time.
Should the campaign team retract this claim ?
-
Good questions Adam.... one other question.
Why wasn't there a bible by June's bed? A person so devout would surely read the bible before sleep. There is a lot of books on June's side of the bed, but also a space where the bible could have been placed before sleep.
Was the bible moved from the bedside at some point?
-
Hello Opal!
It was June's bible, the one she was familiar with studying when she couldn't sleep (which was suggested by her brother-in-law Robert Boutflour), and yes, usually stored on the small cabinet at her bedside.
My own view as you've probably read, is that she was reading it when the shooting broke out in the bedroom. Having first been shot with her head on the pillow, she immediately put one of her hands up to the neck wound (or one of her other wounds), which then became covered in blood. As she was trying to get out of bed her right hand pressed on a page of the opened bible leaving a palm print. Notice that further fingerprints from the same hand don't extend around the book's top edge or front, which would indicate that it wasn't taken hold of and carried around the room. The bible then closed, perhaps through disturbance of the bedclothes, which caused a faint mirror image to appear on the opposite page. When the shooting was over with everyone dead, Jeremy Bamber reopened the bible at the stained pages and placed it on Sheila's arm to give the impression that she killed her family in a religious frenzy and was seeking atonement by reading from it before committing suicide.
Caroline undertook some research on the bloodstain which was mentioned by Paul Harrison in "Deviant". I've read very little about her findings, but maybe if she's around sometime she can point you in the right direction.
The open bible and bloodstain, with a female right-hand print for comparison, more easily viewed by saving and opening the image on your own computer...
-
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, the bible does not promote murder or suicide. It is against it.
-
So many loose ends just left hanging by JB's defence (yes that's you Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivlin. If it transpires that the pair of you were largely repsonsible for sending an innocent man to jail for 30 plus years and you refuse to accept responsibility and make a public apology I will chain myself naked to Downing St railings until you do or a nice fireman cuts me loose!)
Oh my Holly, a bit extreme what?
-
I've got my bolt cutters handy and hired a fireman's costume, so... ready when you are, Holly.
I was really envious of the policeman who covered Erica Roe's bazookas and escorted her off the Twickenham pitch in '82. 8(8-))
-
Hello Opal!
It was June's bible, the one she was familiar with studying when she couldn't sleep (which was suggested by her brother-in-law Robert Boutflour), and yes, usually stored on the small cabinet at her bedside.
My own view as you've probably read, is that she was reading it when the shooting broke out in the bedroom. Having first been shot with her head on the pillow, she immediately put one of her hands up to the neck wound (or one of her other wounds), which then became covered in blood. As she was trying to get out of bed her right hand pressed on a page of the opened bible leaving a palm print. Notice that further fingerprints from the same hand don't extend around the book's top edge or front, which would indicate that it wasn't taken hold of and carried around the room. The bible then closed, perhaps through disturbance of the bedclothes, which caused a faint mirror image to appear on the opposite page. When the shooting was over with everyone dead, Jeremy Bamber reopened the bible at the stained pages and placed it on Sheila's arm to give the impression that she killed her family in a religious frenzy and was seeking atonement by reading from it before committing suicide.
Caroline undertook some research on the bloodstain which was mentioned by Paul Harrison in "Deviant". I've read very little about her findings, but maybe if she's around sometime she can point you in the right direction.
The open bible and bloodstain, with a female right-hand print for comparison, more easily viewed by saving and opening the image on your own computer...
It's not a palm print. It sat on carpeting that had blood on it that resulted in it transferring to the parts of the pages that that were against the ground sitting in the blood. The pages were folded over in a manner that resulted in the outer left and outer right being on the ground. The stain thus carried across the top of the part of the left page that was adjacent to it.
It was rather obvious the blood is Sheila's because it was sitting in Sheila's blood pool. But even if it had been someone else's blood pool it made no difference to them. It didn't occur to them that the blood pool formed after her death and thus that someone else had to put the Bible in it. Only on appeal did experts point such out to the prosecution. They argued such to the Court of Appeals in 2002 but the Court said tough luck you should have recognized such back in 1985 and thus it was not allowed in as new evidence.
-
The trouble is we don't know how far the blood pool extended beyond her arm underneath the bible because it's hidden. If the large stain was transferred off the carpet in the region of arrow 1, then a comparable large stain should be present on the opposite page from the region of arrow 2, but there isn't one. You can just make out a small dark area of what appears to be blood on the carpet in the gap between her arm and the bible, so both pages should be similarly stained if copious blood spread outwards from the arm region. I think we might have to disagree on this point.
-
The trouble is we don't know how far the blood pool extended beyond her arm underneath the bible because it's hidden. If the large stain was transferred off the carpet in the region of arrow 1, then a comparable large stain should be present on the opposite page from the region of arrow 2, but there isn't one. You can just make out a small dark area of what appears to be blood on the carpet in the gap between her arm and the bible, so both pages should be similarly stained if copious blood spread outwards from the arm region. I think we might have to disagree on this point.
You are assuming there is no blood underneath the Bible though surely there was some. The tech that printed the Bible found no prints of any kind in blood. If there had been a palm print then the tech would have recognized it. Even blown up you don't see a heart line, life line etc and in person the tech would have the ultimate view.
The way the pages were folded the part right side sat in the largest amount of blood. While most of the blood on the right side of the page is under the Bible the bulk that the left touched is above the Bible hence why the left side has a smaller amount.
I folded a book in the same manner and stuck it in a puddle of green liquid to simulate blood and it looks a lot like that, I posted it on blue quite a while ago when we debated this whole issue.
Sheila had no blood on the inside of her hands so Jeremy would have to be the source if it had been a hand print. Jeremy would have to be the biggest moron on the planet to get blood on his bare hands and then to wipe it on the Bible leaving his palm print and there is nothing to indicate such is the case.
Gloves that lack a pattern which are totally soaked in blood would leave the same sort of impression as carpeting would except that in addition there would be marks down the top side continuing to the back cover of the Bible from where the fingers were. It is not impossible that he had enough blood on his gloves to leave that sort of mark but quite unlikely. The carpet is a much more likely source. The victims were not stabbed or cut so the blood would be sporadic on his gloves not totally soaked and there were no finger marks, the back is blood free.
It is always possible it is a mix of blood on his gloves combined with blood on the rug but again I would expect it on the cover then.
This photo gives a really good view of just how far the right page was bent over and illustrating how it was near the blood stain
-
Surely the darker patches of blood in the bible are where the blood was the thickest. I've been studying the open bible photos against the blood on and around Shelia. From the photos I've seen there isn't much blood where the bible lays. I would much prefer a photo of the bible showing the bend of pages and the bookmark (crochet) still in the book....can't find one though! Thanks for photo of the bible though Myster. I've looked at the blood on the covers of the bed...June's side. It appears to me that the book has fallen together slightly hence the mirror image of some marks, but not the top pages, did the bible slip down? Were these pages open against either June or Shelia's chest? I personally think the bible was placed on Shelia by the killer after she was killed, as if the bible was there before she was killed then the blood from the gun shots would have run much more onto the pages of the bible. I also believe that the Police disturbed the the bible when they first located her body, hence the position of the bible in photos plus the removal of the crochet bookmark. We are looking at the bible 'Open' turning it over makes the larger marks of blood on the left hand side where there doesn't appear to be much blood, so has the bible slipped down from near her throat after being placed there? Regarding the bed covers turned back in Shelia's room - It appears to me that Shelia had been in bed as the eiderdown cover on the bed she was using to sleep were photo'd trailing on the floor which would happen as you moved in bed. The other bed shows the eiderdown in it's correct place, just turning down a cover in preparation for bed would not cause the eiderdown to slip on the floor. I look forward to your comments...... 8(0(*
-
Surely the darker patches of blood in the bible are where the blood was the thickest. I've been studying the open bible photos against the blood on and around Shelia. From the photos I've seen there isn't much blood where the bible lays. I would much prefer a photo of the bible showing the bend of pages and the bookmark (crochet) still in the book....can't find one though! Thanks for photo of the bible though Myster. I've looked at the blood on the covers of the bed...June's side. It appears to me that the book has fallen together slightly hence the mirror image of some marks, but not the top pages, did the bible slip down? Were these pages open against either June or Shelia's chest? I personally think the bible was placed on Shelia by the killer after she was killed, as if the bible was there before she was killed then the blood from the gun shots would have run much more onto the pages of the bible. I also believe that the Police disturbed the the bible when they first located her body, hence the position of the bible in photos plus the removal of the crochet bookmark. We are looking at the bible 'Open' turning it over makes the larger marks of blood on the left hand side where there doesn't appear to be much blood, so has the bible slipped down from near her throat after being placed there? Regarding the bed covers turned back in Shelia's room - It appears to me that Shelia had been in bed as the eiderdown cover on the bed she was using to sleep were photo'd trailing on the floor which would happen as you moved in bed. The other bed shows the eiderdown in it's correct place, just turning down a cover in preparation for bed would not cause the eiderdown to slip on the floor. I look forward to your comments...... 8(0(*
What do you mean by on Sheila? Do you mean next to her against her arm where it was?
Only the biggest moron alive would place the Bible across her chest on top of the rifle. It would be impossible for her to be holding it as she killed herself so that it would be across her chest on top of the rifle. That would be a sure sign someone placed it there after killing her. Even Jeremy would recognize this so if he did place it on her chest and some blood transferred from her gown to the Bible then after he removed it to place the rifle on her there is no way he would place it back on top of the gun so instead placed it on the floor next to her. No photos of the carpet after the Bible was removed have been publicly released.
There is no question the Bible fully closed then was reopened to the same page to create the mirror image marks.
-
Thanks for the reply Scipio.... I actually thought the bible could have been placed across Shelia's throat after the shooting ( before the gun was placed on her) and had slipped down to the position we now see it. I was trying to see blood either on June's bed or on Shelia that coincided with the blood marks in the open bible. I agree now that the bible could have been placed open BESIDE Shelia after she was killed. My reason being that the line of blood running down the outside of the bible pages (front cover area when face down, nearest Shelia) seems to fit with the lines of blood on Shelia's arm. Looking closely there is another small blood mark above this, I wonder if the distance between them matches the two lines of blood on Shelia's arm. It is difficult to see. Could the bible have been squashed up as police entered the box room ( door beside Shelia's head) causing the mirror image on the pages. These mirror images are on the outer sides of both bible pages where the squashed up pages met and then the book fell open again. Therefore, they could have came into contact with Shelia's blood.
In brief - open bible lays with title facing up next to Shelia, bible pushed hard by door, reaches Shelia's arm, and squashes pages together, bible then falls apart again. Soft cover to bible! I still feel the crochet book mark, being in the bible, could have caused the patterned blood marks at top of pages when bible squashed up. I don't believe that the supposed fingerprints were ever confirmed as such in the trial?
-
Five blood stained exhibits were found on or near SC's person:
- SC's nightdress
- Rifle
- Bible
- Carpet
- Blue socks
The bible was the only exhibit where no attempt was made to carry out blood grouping tests. Why?
-
JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, states he was unaware of the open pages:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
Given an image of the open bible/pages is available why was he kept in the dark?
-
From the CoA doc:
413. The only value of the photographs would be if the Bible itself was not available for inspection since if it was, the page at which it was open could very readily be found. We permitted both Mr Terzeon, the defence solicitor at trial, and Mr Edmund Lawson QC, junior counsel at trial, to give evidence about this aspect of the case. Mr Terzeon suggested that he had particularly wanted to ascertain the pages at which the Bible was open. He said that as a result he had asked the police and been told that the pages were not known. When he was asked why he had not looked at the Bible itself, he said that it was his recollection that it had been missing at the time.
414. If Mr Terzeon's recollection was right, we find it astonishing that nowhere is this recorded in any document nor does Mr Edmund Lawson have any recollection of any such problem. The fact that the police had lost an exhibit at some stage that the defence were anxious to view is we suggest the sort of detail that tends to stick in trial counsel's mind even when other details fade. Further Mr Terzeon had no recollection of the Bible being produced at trial as it undoubtedly was. If it had been missing and if the defence were attaching to it the importance that he now suggests, it must surely have come to his attention and would, we have no doubt, been carefully scrutinised. Such scrutiny would inevitably have revealed the relevant pages because the pages were so heavily bloodstained. Blood had also dripped down the edges of the pages on one of the sides when it was opened. Thus by turning to the end of this mark on the page edges one could immediately identify the bloodstained pages with little effort.
415. We are satisfied that whilst Mr Terzeon is doing his best to assist the court, his recollection in this regard is faulty. Even if he was right, any deficiency in this regard would have been cured when the Bible was produced at trial.
416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.
417. The explanation why the pages at which the Bible was open was not explored by the defence may be explicable by these matters. Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness, may well have decided that far from helping these matters might have presented a yet further major hurdle for the appellant to overcome and consequently decided to leave well alone. In any event we are satisfied that production of the original exhibit provided all the information that the photographs would have revealed and that there was no failure to disclose in this respect.
If the blood staining was indicative of JB's involvement why didn't the prosecution use it?
How do we know it was SC's blood and not June's?
How do we know June didn't walk round the bed holding the bible, with the blood originating from June, and she subsequently dropped it?
How do we know the perp didn't open the door between box room and main bedroom and cause the bible to concertina up and down thus causing the mirror staining?
Given the bible was centre stage at SoC and JB's defence claim they were told the open pages were an unknown and/or the bible was missing why didn't they pursue this with the chief investigating officer and obtain something in writing to this effect?
-
Five blood stained exhibits were found on or near SC's person:
- SC's nightdress
- Rifle
- Bible
- Carpet
- Blue socks
The bible was the only exhibit where no attempt was made to carry out blood grouping tests. Why?
They only tested the carpet near her feet and at the foot of the bed. They did not test the big stain that was near the Bible. They figured that pool of blood had to be hers. Likewise they figured the blood near June had to be hers so did not test that either.
Of the 2 carpet samples they did take to test they only test 5 drops on each not all. So there was a considerable amount of blood on the rugs that went untested. Nor did they test any of the blood that was on the bedding.
That is why time and again I have pointed out to you that there was a lot of untested blood that could have belonged to Nevill, we have no way to know.
There was a trial of blood they followed which went from the foot of the bed to the area near her legs including dripping on the socks. They tested such blood to figure out who was walking around the bed. In theory that could help them figure out who the killer was. They saw no value in testing the blood under the Bible or near June or in the bed which they figured belonged to the victims near such blood.
Because they did test such blood that is how we know that June walked around the bed. Had they not tested the blood we would not have known that.
It is presumed that the blood on the Bible was Sheila's. It was sitting in a pool of blood that they presumed was hers. if it wasn't hers that would not help them figure out who the killer was unless it belonged to none of the victims which would mean it came from the killer and that the killer was someone other than Sheila. They didn't have any expectations the killer bled all over the Bible though. I don't fault them for not thinking such.
They tested the blood on her gown because they suspected she was the killer and were trying to see if they could find blood from other victims.
They tested the rifle to try to see whose blood was on it because such blood would also be on the killer.
If this had been an attack with a knife or the like they would have to have tested every drop of blood everywhere because the killer's blood might be found. That moreso is significant today because DNA testing can better identify who blood belongs to.
They did fingerprint the Bible but found no prints in blood so were not concerned about the blood type though they assumed it was Sheila's.
-
If the blood staining was indicative of JB's involvement why didn't the prosecution use it?
As the COA decision shows they did use it but too late, they used it during the appeal. The prosecution experts didn't realize the blood/Bible issue until years later.
What the COA decision states is that the defense may have recognized the problem, thanked their lucky stars the prosecution was too stupid to see it and made the tactical decision not to raise the Bible issue because if the prosecution was forced to look at it in detail to try to undermine the defense then the light bulb finally might have gone off which is exactly what happened on appeal. Teh defense raised it and the prosecution had experts look and they said hey lookee here...
How do we know it was SC's blood and not June's?
The pool of blood is too much to be June's alone and is in a place that makes it virtually certain to be Sheila's. The bulk of the blood that was on the Bible came from such pool. It is always possible that some of the smaller amounts of blood was June's either by virtue of June walking over the Bible had she left it pen on the floor or Jeremy gotten some of her blood on his gloves and dripped a little from his gloves. That still doesn't undermine the argument made on appeal though which was that after blood got on it then it was closed and reopened to the same page and placed in the pool of sheila's blood that formed after her death.
How do we know June didn't walk round the bed holding the bible, with the blood originating from June, and she subsequently dropped it?
She would not have leaked blood walking with it at best she would have left finger prints. In the meantime if she dropped it then bled a few drops on it so what? It was still closed after that then reopened to the same exact page and placed in the pool of blood after Sheila was moved flat. What if anything the killer did with the Bible before moving her flat and sticking the gun on her is anyone's guess other than at some point closing it and reopening it.
There isn't any kind of evidence that could answer that other than Jeremy telling us exactly what he did. We can speculate why he reopened it and his steps but there are multiple possibilities so we can't be positive.
How do we know the perp didn't open the door between box room and main bedroom and cause the bible to concertina up and down thus causing the mirror staining?
The Bible would have to be much closer to the door to be hit. The location where it was found was protected from being hit by the door because the night table limited how far the door could open.
What difference does it make whether the Bible closed by getting hit by the door or picking it up and it closing? Why it closed makes no difference the fact it was closed and then reopened is what matters. Moreover what matters is that after being reopened it was placed in a pool of blood that formed after sheila died. Another thing significant is that it was placed near her neck instead of by her waist. If she had been reading it while sitting up then put it down she would put it by her waist. That's actually a stupid mistake but Jeremy wasn't thinking as clearly as he should have because of the excitement. That police and experts ignored such on the other hand demonstrates negligence. That's an easy one.
Given the bible was centre stage at SoC and JB's defence claim they were told the open pages were an unknown and/or the bible was missing why didn't they pursue this with the chief investigating officer and obtain something in writing to this effect?
Jeremy's defense made up that they were told the Bible was missing. It was a trial exhibit so they would have been able to examine it. The appeal court found their claim not credible and said their memory was faulty and for sure they could have examined it. In all likelihood they chose not to examine it because they didn't perceive any potential value or because they feared opening Pandora's box. On appeal they had nothing to lose in opening Pandora's box though they didn't make a very convincing argument that the page it was opened to constituted a suicide note or provided some proof of religious motive to kill everyone.
If there were a novel detailing murder suicide left near her that would be different then there would be a clear implication and the prosecution would have to claim it was planted.
On appeal the defense has nothing to lose. When the defense has a strong valid legal ground for appealing the defense will concentrate on such but if the defense lacks such then they pull out all the stops and argue anything they can no matter how remote the chance of success might be.
Let's pretend you are preparing for trial. How do you argue the Bible pages it was opened to were indicative of murder suicide? You can have the jury read the pages for themselves but that's about it. You can't have a theologian testify about the meaning unless you can show Sheila went to a theologian and have them say what she was told. Speculation is not of any value you would need what she was told or what she told someone she understood it to mean. On TV they show lawyers and witnesses being called to say things that in real life can't be said.
Only Jeremy knows what he saw the a passage on those pages that he decided to open it to such pages. For all we know he chose at random and just assumed they would say Bible = religious mania. We have no idea how much thought he put into it. Some things he overthought and some he under thought.
The most simple explanation of things is he placed the Bible on her or near her, got some blood on it in the process then decided to move her body to put the gun on her so moved it and it closed. Then after he was done putting the gun on her after the pool of blood formed he reopened it and stuck it in the pool.
Is this for sure what happened? All we know for sure is the Bible was closed and reopened to the same page and subsequently placed in her pool of blood. We don't know where it may have been moved from or why it was closed. We don't know if it was originally placed on her and some blood transferred to it from her gown before it was moved to the floor so the gun could be placed on her. There are many different possibilities and only Jeremy can tell us exactly what happened if he wanted to and he actually remembers. Given the passage of time he might not even remember all the details anymore in fact I would be shocked if he did.
-
Thought I would post this as food for thought. Too much of a coincidence?
(http://i.imgur.com/mxoQV4d.jpg?1)
-
Thought I would post this as food for thought. Too much of a coincidence?
(http://i.imgur.com/mxoQV4d.jpg?1)
Yes you could be right.
Blood NB's side of the bed was described as spots. If there was evidence of other staining patterns eg a pool or smears surely this would have been noted and tests carried out on the alternative staining patterns as this might indicate blood from another source.
I have just placed a paperback book of some 400 pages open half way behind a door then pushed it open. The book concertinas up as would be expected I guess. This could certainly account for the mirror staining.
If JB murdered to fast forward his inheritance I don't see why he would faff about adding a bible to the scene. It was well documented SC had serious mental health issues. His initial phone calls to the police and conversations outside WHF centred on SC's mental health not religiosity. When he gave his WS he/CC ? focused on June's religiosity. It's all too convenient to say JB (MM according to JM) threw the bible open on or near SC to add the theme of religious mania when there might well be other plausible explanations.
-
JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, states he was unaware of the open pages:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
Given an image of the open bible/pages is available why was he kept in the dark?
Geoffrey Rivlin cross examined DC Hammersley re the blood stained bible so it seems JB's defence were aware of its existence at trial. Had they been told pre trial it was missing and then it appeared at trial surely it was something they could pursue with the judge?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=235
I'm still not getting why it wasn't blood tested in the same way that all other blood based exhibits were? Unless of course it was and the prosecution withheld.
Why test all manner of things for blood/grouping eg NB's car seat, wallpaper at WHF, JB's bathrobe and yet exclude the bible right at the centre of SoC?
-
The CT claim the bible contained bloody fingerprints. Is there any evidence for this? Police records in the following make ref to fingerprints but no blood.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
The CoA doc as follows:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
With regard to claims of a suicide note surely the CT have shot themselves in the foot since there's enough clear writing surely JB can distinguish between the handwriting of June and SC. JB spent 8 years away at boarding school and surely must have exchanged letters with SC and his parents during that time. If nothing else they would have surely exchanged enough greeting cards for JB to distinguish the handwriting.
-
Also surely JB would be familiar with June's handwriting since she was a fellow director at OCP.
In one breath the CT want to give the impression of close and loving bonds hence the graveside reading. In the next breath JB is unable to distinguish between the handwriting of his mother and sister.
I can picture in my minds eye the handwriting of all members of my family and could easily distinguish one from the other.
-
The CT claim the bible contained bloody fingerprints. Is there any evidence for this? Police records in the following make ref to fingerprints but no blood.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible (http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible)
The CoA doc as follows:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
With regard to claims of a suicide note surely the CT have shot themselves in the foot since there's enough clear writing surely JB can distinguish between the handwriting of June and SC. JB spent 8 years away at boarding school and surely must have exchanged letters with SC and his parents during that time. If nothing else they would have surely exchanged enough greeting cards for JB to distinguish the handwriting.
Shouldn't that be - "I hate you for sending me away to Boarding School cards". 8)><( 8()(((@#
-
Shouldn't that be - "I hate you for sending me away to Boarding School cards". 8)><( 8()(((@#
The same could be said of SC. In fact in SC's case she was so unhappy at her first boarding school she changed schools.
-
Thought I would post this as food for thought. Too much of a coincidence?
You seem to be straining to see things. I don't see any of the lines you claim to see there and in fact the main disruptions I do see come from the ink showing through. Some of the darkest patterns are from the ink.
The back cover of the Bible is totally free of blood as opposed to having finger marks.
-
Thanks for the reply Scipio.... I actually thought the bible could have been placed across Shelia's throat after the shooting ( before the gun was placed on her) and had slipped down to the position we now see it. I was trying to see blood either on June's bed or on Shelia that coincided with the blood marks in the open bible. I agree now that the bible could have been placed open BESIDE Shelia after she was killed. My reason being that the line of blood running down the outside of the bible pages (front cover area when face down, nearest Shelia) seems to fit with the lines of blood on Shelia's arm. Looking closely there is another small blood mark above this, I wonder if the distance between them matches the two lines of blood on Shelia's arm. It is difficult to see. Could the bible have been squashed up as police entered the box room ( door beside Shelia's head) causing the mirror image on the pages. These mirror images are on the outer sides of both bible pages where the squashed up pages met and then the book fell open again. Therefore, they could have came into contact with Shelia's blood.
In brief - open bible lays with title facing up next to Shelia, bible pushed hard by door, reaches Shelia's arm, and squashes pages together, bible then falls apart again. Soft cover to bible! I still feel the crochet book mark, being in the bible, could have caused the patterned blood marks at top of pages when bible squashed up. I don't believe that the supposed fingerprints were ever confirmed as such in the trial?
It seems illogical to place the Bible on her throat, it would not naturally get there. It would not naturally get on her chest either after killing herself. It is possible Jeremy placed it somewhere on her body but then decided it was foolish and decided to put the gun instead so removed it but we have no way to know whether he did this or only put it next to her from the outset. There is no test that could determine the progression Jeremy would have to remember and talk for us to know.
The lines on the side that are slightly off kilter are a different issue. Clearly the Blood leaked down the side of the Bible while it was next to Sheila. Because the blood doesn't line up perfectly that means the Bible was moved slightly. It could have been moved by Jeremy as he was playing with the rifle or could have been moved by police. here is nothing to establish for sure whether the slight movement occurred while her blood was still wet or was dry. Police say they took the photos before moving anything at all but it would not take much to move the Bible so slightly. While it is likely Jeremy moved it ever so slightly during the staging it's not for sure this is the case.
Some people theorize that the Bible kept falling off her and closed and Jeremy decided to stick it next to her because of sit would not stay. I doubt this because it would be so unnatural to be on her body but if this is what happened then Jeremy caught a break that it would not stay. It being on her body would undermine the suicide staging. There is no way for her to kill herself then to fall flat and the Bible to get on her. I think that Jeremy would have recognized this I can't imagine him not realizing it.
The irony is that he may have put it in blood on purpose thinking that police would say oh it had blood on it she was reading it in between the 2 gunshot wounds she suffered as she was dying before she fired the fatal shot. If he did do such he made a mistake because putting it in her blood only helped establish someone else put it there. Some things like that are more technical and harder for someone like Jeremy to understand.
The Bible not being able to get on her body after she fell flat seems like something so basic that even he would recognize it.
-
[quoteIt seems illogical to place the Bible on her throat, it would not naturally get there. It would not naturally get on her chest either after killing herself. It is possible Jeremy placed it somewhere on her body but then decided it was foolish and decided to put the gun instead so removed it but we have no way to know whether he did this or only put it next to her from the outset. There is no test that could determine the progression Jeremy would have to remember and talk for us to know.
The lines on the side that are slightly off kilter are a different issue. Clearly the Blood leaked down the side of the Bible while it was next to Sheila. Because the blood doesn't line up perfectly that means the Bible was moved slightly. It could have been moved by Jeremy as he was playing with the rifle or could have been moved by police. here is nothing to establish for sure whether the slight movement occurred while her blood was still wet or was dry. Police say they took the photos before moving anything at all but it would not take much to move the Bible so slightly. While it is likely Jeremy moved it ever so slightly during the staging it's not for sure this is the case.
Some people theorize that the Bible kept falling off her and closed and Jeremy decided to stick it next to her because of sit would not stay. I doubt this because it would be so unnatural to be on her body but if this is what happened then Jeremy caught a break that it would not stay. It being on her body would undermine the suicide staging. There is no way for her to kill herself then to fall flat and the Bible to get on her. I think that Jeremy would have recognized this I can't imagine him not realizing it.
The irony is that he may have put it in blood on purpose thinking that police would say oh it had blood on it she was reading it in between the 2 gunshot wounds she suffered as she was dying before she fired the fatal shot. If he did do such he made a mistake because putting it in her blood only helped establish someone else put it there. Some things like that are more technical and harder for someone like Jeremy to understand.
The Bible not being able to get on her body after she fell flat seems like something so basic that even he would recognize it.]
I agree with what you are saying Scipio...... but although you say it doesn't really matter where the bible was laying, I'm still interested in this. Today I found a website pic of SC with a clear view of a blood mark that could match the mark in the bible......but I can't get the Image to show up on here! Any Ideas? Also can you recommend a decent book on the Bamber Murders other than CAL's as I already have this.
-
[quoteIt seems illogical to place the Bible on her throat, it would not naturally get there. It would not naturally get on her chest either after killing herself. It is possible Jeremy placed it somewhere on her body but then decided it was foolish and decided to put the gun instead so removed it but we have no way to know whether he did this or only put it next to her from the outset. There is no test that could determine the progression Jeremy would have to remember and talk for us to know.
The lines on the side that are slightly off kilter are a different issue. Clearly the Blood leaked down the side of the Bible while it was next to Sheila. Because the blood doesn't line up perfectly that means the Bible was moved slightly. It could have been moved by Jeremy as he was playing with the rifle or could have been moved by police. here is nothing to establish for sure whether the slight movement occurred while her blood was still wet or was dry. Police say they took the photos before moving anything at all but it would not take much to move the Bible so slightly. While it is likely Jeremy moved it ever so slightly during the staging it's not for sure this is the case.
Some people theorize that the Bible kept falling off her and closed and Jeremy decided to stick it next to her because of sit would not stay. I doubt this because it would be so unnatural to be on her body but if this is what happened then Jeremy caught a break that it would not stay. It being on her body would undermine the suicide staging. There is no way for her to kill herself then to fall flat and the Bible to get on her. I think that Jeremy would have recognized this I can't imagine him not realizing it.
The irony is that he may have put it in blood on purpose thinking that police would say oh it had blood on it she was reading it in between the 2 gunshot wounds she suffered as she was dying before she fired the fatal shot. If he did do such he made a mistake because putting it in her blood only helped establish someone else put it there. Some things like that are more technical and harder for someone like Jeremy to understand.
The Bible not being able to get on her body after she fell flat seems like something so basic that even he would recognize it.] I agree with what you are saying Scipio...... but although you say it doesn't really matter where the bible was laying, I'm still interested in this. Today I found a website pic of SC with a clear view of a blood mark that could match the mark in the bible......but I can't get the Image to show up on here! Any Ideas? Also can you recommend a decent book on the Bamber Murders other than CAL's as I already have this.
Hi Opal,
I also believe that he originally placed the bible on her body but moved it because as you suggest, it would have looked over staged. Which site did you see the picture?
-
Hi Caroline!
The photo was on google images, it's a close up of SC with the blood coming from her mouth down either side of her face. In the photo you can see by her head the a U typed shape of blood that could fit with the blood mark in the bible. So frustrating that I can load it on here.
-
Today I found a website pic of SC with a clear view of a blood mark that could match the mark in the bible......but I can't get the Image to show up on here! Any Ideas? Also can you recommend a decent book on the Bamber Murders other than CAL's as I already have this.
Just copy and paste the URL (the website address) into your next post, then we can link to it ourselves.
Recommended (out of print) books available on ebay, although you're better waiting until some cheaper ones come up for auction. Or your local library might be able to get hold of them from their network...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blood-Relations-Jeremy-Bamber-and-the-White-House-Fa-Wilkes-Roger-Hardback-/301879968507?hash=item464972c2fb:g:B9QAAOSwa-dWp-AW (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blood-Relations-Jeremy-Bamber-and-the-White-House-Fa-Wilkes-Roger-Hardback-/301879968507?hash=item464972c2fb:g:B9QAAOSwa-dWp-AW)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Murder-at-White-House-Farm-Story-of-Jeremy-Bamber-Powell-Claire-Paperback/301942987439?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36381%26meid%3Dfd035a92802441229e8db27588ba46c7%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D371289486261 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Murder-at-White-House-Farm-Story-of-Jeremy-Bamber-Powell-Claire-Paperback/301942987439?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36381%26meid%3Dfd035a92802441229e8db27588ba46c7%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D371289486261)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/In-Search-of-the-Rainbows-End-The-Inside-Story-of-Caffell-Colin-Hardback/141975594484?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36381%26meid%3Df929928db4d34943988d1a597287031c%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D151804846591 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/In-Search-of-the-Rainbows-End-The-Inside-Story-of-Caffell-Colin-Hardback/141975594484?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36381%26meid%3Df929928db4d34943988d1a597287031c%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D151804846591)
-
Also surely JB would be familiar with June's handwriting since she was a fellow director at OCP.
In one breath the CT want to give the impression of close and loving bonds hence the graveside reading. In the next breath JB is unable to distinguish between the handwriting of his mother and sister.
I can picture in my minds eye the handwriting of all members of my family and could easily distinguish one from the other.
The note is explained in CAL's book. Jeremy mentioned in a letter to her that it was confirmed by Michael Ainsley that the handwriting was June's and it was written in her own words on a piece of card and it read - "Love one another. A determination always to act in the others' best interest, whether we feel good or not, whether we like them or not. It is an act of will, commandment to obey. Be determined to be loving and kind to every person you meet whether you like them or not. Lord Jesus in Thy mercy, teach me to love in Thy names sake, help me to live and speak as a Christian no matter what others might think."
The letter was sent to CAL in May of 2013, as such, the CT must now surely KNOW that the note in the bible was NOT Sheila's suicide note? (Or anyone else's for that matter).
-
Hi Caroline!
The photo was on google images, it's a close up of SC with the blood coming from her mouth down either side of her face. In the photo you can see by her head the a U typed shape of blood that could fit with the blood mark in the bible. So frustrating that I can load it on here.
I have a picture of that on my lap top - is this what you mean?
-
Now that is a rarity, and one pic I've never seen before, which is why I've probably been flogging the bible stain as being a palm print by mistake.
So... is the stain definitely from the carpet... or from Sheila's palm?
-
Now that is a rarity, and one pic I've never seen before, which is why I've probably been flogging the bible stain as being a palm print by mistake.
So... is the stain definitely from the carpet... or from Sheila's palm?
I asked Mike Tesko about the circular mark (I don't think he replied). I wondered if it could have been made by Bamber wiping blood from the end of the silencer before he unscrewed it.
-
I asked Mike Tesko about the circular mark (I don't think he replied). I wondered if it could have been made by Bamber wiping blood from the end of the silencer before he unscrewed it.
Geez... that's another new one on little ol' me! You do like to complicate things! @)(++(*
-
Brilliant Caroline...thanks. The actual photo I have from off Google images also shows the blood stain under SC's arm and on her nightdress. This also has the same shape of blood! A U shape... I wish I could get it on here... 8()(((@#
-
Because the bible stain is roughly semi-circular, the other part of the stain on the carpet should be continued above the top edge of the book in the region of the white circle (attached), whereas it's way out of alignment to the right...
-
Because the bible stain is roughly semi-circular, the other part of the stain on the carpet should be continued above the top edge of the book in the region of the white circle (attached), whereas it's way out of alignment to the right...
The U is also facing the wrong way.
-
Here's the web address for the photo I've seen. I had to save it and blow it up to see the same blood marks as on the carpet under SC's arm. Myster I thought the blood mark under SC's arm ( being the same as on the carpet) does point to the blood on the page of the bible.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sheila+caffell+with+gun&biw=1600&bih=809&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgy-7m1b7MAhWJlxoKHT61DvgQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=he-L-8qqoyxmkM%3A
-
The note is explained in CAL's book. Jeremy mentioned in a letter to her that it was confirmed by Michael Ainsley that the handwriting was June's and it was written in her own words on a piece of card and it read - "Love one another. A determination always to act in the others' best interest, whether we feel good or not, whether we like them or not. It is an act of will, commandment to obey. Be determined to be loving and kind to every person you meet whether you like them or not. Lord Jesus in Thy mercy, teach me to love in Thy names sake, help me to live and speak as a Christian no matter what others might think."
The letter was sent to CAL in May of 2013, as such, the CT must now surely KNOW that the note in the bible was NOT Sheila's suicide note? (Or anyone else's for that matter).
Long time no hear Caro ?>)()<. Anyway welcome back! Thanks - as a former naughty nun I think I must have glossed over the bits with religious connotations!
-
Now that is a rarity, and one pic I've never seen before, which is why I've probably been flogging the bible stain as being a palm print by mistake.
So... is the stain definitely from the carpet... or from Sheila's palm?
I think I must be getting lost! I can't see the significance in any of this? The stain on the carpet is the wrong side of the bible based on its position above?
-
Long time no hear Caro ?>)()<. Anyway welcome back! Thanks - as a former naughty nun I think I must have glossed over the bits with religious connotations!
I didn't go anywhere but thanks :). Forgot to mention that although the bible was returned to the family, the note wasn't.
-
I think I must be getting lost! I can't see the significance in any of this? The stain on the carpet is the wrong side of the bible based on its position above?
Yes. When the bible is faced down page 566 is on the right side of the book and on top of the stain, so it should be this page that is stained. However, the stain is on page 567 which when faced down is on the left side of the book but the right side when turned over.
-
Yes. When the bible is faced down page 566 is on the right side of the book and on top of the stain, so it should be this page that is stained. However, the stain is on page 567 which when faced down is on the left side of the book but the right side when turned over.
The top of both pages are stained. Much of page 566 was covered by page 567 which was folded. You can't see the blood underneath the Bible because the Bible is sitting on top of it. You keep stating the Bible sat flat in half though it didn't.
-
The top of both pages are stained. Much of page 566 was covered by page 567 which was folded. You can't see the blood underneath the Bible because the Bible is sitting on top of it. You keep stating the Bible sat flat in half though it didn't.
I have never said it sat flat. You and I will never agree on this, we will just have to agree to disagree.
-
I have a picture of that on my lap top - is this what you mean?
Is the stain definitely blood? It looks much darker than the blood on SC's arms?
-
I'm looking at the U shape under SC's arm....if the bible is face down, then the page with most blood stains fits well, including the straight edge that is lightly coloured, this means if the bible is open then the blood stains that have run down the edge of other page also fit the runs of blood on SC's arm. The bible would be across the body at this point. Mirror image appears when bible closed
-
Is the stain definitely blood? It looks much darker than the blood on SC's arms?
Yes Holly....it is blood running down SC's arms.....what else could it be?
-
Yes Holly....it is blood running down SC's arms.....what else could it be?
Sorry Opal I obviously didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the stain on the carpet which looks a completely different colour from the blood stains on SC's arms which are clearly red. The stain on the carpet (if thathatehat it is) looks more akin to the colour of SC's hair? It could be anything eg the way any blood dried, lighting etc.
-
Sorry Opal I obviously didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the stain on the carpet which looks a completely different colour from the blood stains on SC's arms which are clearly red. The stain on the carpet (if thathatehat it is) looks more akin to the colour of SC's hair? It could be anything eg the way any blood dried, lighting etc.
Yes Holly I thought the same that the dark stain on the carpet looked like Sheila's hair. But on looking at a few more photos I decided it was blood that had dried as some photos show it is separate from SC's hair and no shadow.
-
I didn't go anywhere but thanks :). Forgot to mention that although the bible was returned to the family, the note wasn't.
I don't understand why the police would return the bible to the family when it appears it was a court exhibit. Thought they needed preserving indefinitely by the police/prosecution. And perhaps more to the point why on earth would the family want to take possession of a tatty, blood stained bible?
The whole thing seems bizarre to my mind. I guess the note was destroyed. What about the crochet cloth?
-
Is the stain definitely blood? It looks much darker than the blood on SC's arms?
Yes, it is blood.
-
I don't understand why the police would return the bible to the family when it appears it was a court exhibit. Thought they needed preserving indefinitely by the police/prosecution. And perhaps more to the point why on earth would the family want to take possession of a tatty, blood stained bible?
The whole thing seems bizarre to my mind. I guess the note was destroyed. What about the crochet cloth?
It does seem odd that something in that state was given back to the family but that's what happened. The prosecution had finished with it at that stage - not sure what happened to the crocheted cloth but I suspect it went the same way as the card. I wonder if they still have the bible?
-
Sorry Opal I obviously didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the stain on the carpet which looks a completely different colour from the blood stains on SC's arms which are clearly red. The stain on the carpet (if thathatehat it is) looks more akin to the colour of SC's hair? It could be anything eg the way any blood dried, lighting etc.
@)(++(* Yes, I also have difficulty typing when I'm half-cut too!
-
Yes. When the bible is faced down page 566 is on the right side of the book and on top of the stain, so it should be this page that is stained. However, the stain is on page 567 which when faced down is on the left side of the book but the right side when turned over.
Absolutely spot on... and I'm in total agreement with you. The very faint mirror image on page 566 only appeared after the bible was closed, when the original dark stain on 567 had partially dried... and what's more it didn't come from the carpet but was deliberately planted from the victim's bloodied palm.
-
I don't understand why the police would return the bible to the family when it appears it was a court exhibit. Thought they needed preserving indefinitely by the police/prosecution. And perhaps more to the point why on earth would the family want to take possession of a tatty, blood stained bible?
The whole thing seems bizarre to my mind. I guess the note was destroyed. What about the crochet cloth?
As a remembrance of a dearly-loved member of the family who they tragically lost.
-
Absolutely spot on... and I'm in total agreement with you. The very faint mirror image on page 566 only appeared after the bible was closed, when the original dark stain on 567 had partially dried... and what's more it didn't come from the carpet but was deliberately planted from the victim's bloodied palm.
I'd also go along with Caroline's theory that Bamber originally placed the bible, opened and face upwards on or by Sheila's lap, with her bloodied palm resting on page 567 and her blood-stained fingers on the nightie. For some reason he had a change of mind... maybe it looked too contrived with the rifle added, or the book wouldn't stay in position, so he modified his plan and planted it face downwards resting on the carpet blood pool near her upper arm, hoping no-one would notice that there would be a difference in the stain's appearance, page position and origin. Her fingers were then given a cursory wipe over to remove any blood, again for some unknown reason.
-
Yes, it is blood.
How do you know it is definitely blood? I can see now the spots of blood look similarly dark on the carpet unlike the bright red trails on SC's arms.
I guess the reason I am questioning this is that there's no mention of a large stain relevant to the spots anywhere? From the CoA:
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.
If a different stain pattern existed then surely a sample would be removed and tested?
-
@)(++(* Yes, I also have difficulty typing when I'm half-cut too!
I was on my phone and my keys got stuck! I meant to say 'if that's what it is'.
-
As a remembrance of a dearly-loved member of the family who they tragically lost.
But they acquired the tenancy to WHF with all its contents and June's personal effects which were surely a more fitting memory than a tatty blood stained bible found at the centre of the tragedy?
It just stirkes me as a little odd in that the bible was the only exhibit that didn't undergo blood grouping tests (as far as we know) and the only exhibit (as far as we know) that was returned to the relatives?
If the bible still exists it should be possible to carry out DNA tests on the blood stain to determine whose blood.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/exhibits/#after
General Guidance: After Production In Court
Once an exhibit is produced in court, or treated as being produced in accordance with section 5B(5) Magistrates Courts Act 1980 (Archbold 10-16), the court has a responsibility to preserve or retain it. Normally the court entrusts the exhibits to the prosecution, usually the police.
The court can impose restrictions on the prosecution. Where it imposes no restrictions, it is for the prosecution to deal with the exhibits in whatever way appears best for the purposes of justice. If the prosecution has doubts as to how to deal with an exhibit it may, but is not obliged to, apply to the court for directions (R v Stipendiary Magistrates at Lambeth and Another, ex p McComb 1983) All ER 321).
From the CoA:
165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
-
I can't see anything relevant in the photos?!
The ball of thumb/horseshoe image on the page of the bible and carpet look similar?
-
I can't see anything relevant in the photos?!
The ball of thumb/horseshoe image on the page of the bible and carpet look similar?
If you can't see it, you can't see it but if the 'horseshoe' stain was responsible for the bible stain, it would facing a different direction. It's still also on the wrong page.
-
It was June's Bible and she was the religious one. There isn't any way of knowing for sure how it came to be lying on the floor alongside Sheila but it is a fair bet to think that it was ejected from the bed and flung across the bed onto the floor when June got up.
-
Am I the only one who can see another horseshoe shape under SC's arm where the blood is dark? @)(++(* This is clearly seen by enlarging the photo that I was speaking about yesterday....I gave the web address from off Google images yesterday, but when the website is opened, you need to scroll down to view it. The horseshoe shape is right at the bottom of the photo and can only be seen clearly when the photo is enlarged.
-
I was on my phone and my keys got stuck! I meant to say 'if that's what it is'.
I had a chuckle at that unusual error because you're normally so precise with language in your posts.
-
Am I the only one who can see another horseshoe shape under SC's arm where the blood is dark? @)(++(* This is clearly seen by enlarging the photo that I was speaking about yesterday....I gave the web address from off Google images yesterday, but when the website is opened, you need to scroll down to view it. The horseshoe shape is right at the bottom of the photo and can only be seen clearly when the photo is enlarged.
If this is the photo you mean, which horseshoe shape because I see a couple around the armpit but doubt if any caused the bible stain?
-
Strangely, in the picture below, the bloody horseshoe mark just to the top of the Bible is not that visible so was the book moved slightly?
Also, note the very clear shadow of the rifle on the nightdress in Myster's pic above yet no shadow in mine below.
(http://i.imgur.com/JEcTv.jpg)
-
That's the picture! Thanks John & Myster ... 8@??)( .the clearer photo without the flash highlighting on the blood by SC's arm/nightdress shows the horseshoe shape.. if book upside down.....perhaps not!
-
How do you know it is definitely blood? I can see now the spots of blood look similarly dark on the carpet unlike the bright red trails on SC's arms.
I guess the reason I am questioning this is that there's no mention of a large stain relevant to the spots anywhere? From the CoA:
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber.
If a different stain pattern existed then surely a sample would be removed and tested?
I already explained to you that they only took 2 carpet samples from the bedroom. They tested 5 drops from each sample. The COA gave a false impression of 5 pieces of carpet being taken. There was pooling of blood near both victims in the bedroom. Police assumed such blood belonged to the victim the pool of blood was near. The trail of blood from someone walking was what interested them. Thus they took a piece of carpet near the foot of the bed and right around the corner near the socks. These 2 carpet squares they cut out had more than 5 stains on each but they only tested 5 on each. They only tested the AK enzyme. The ones that they got successful results on were AK2-1. Of the 3 victims out of bed only June has AK2-1. So did the socks that blood dripped on when standing over them. So what this demonstrated was that June walked around the bed and then back towards the door.
The police wondered whether he killer (suspected as being Sheila) had been the one who walked, crawled or was dragged to the other side of the bed while bleeding. Had that been the case that would prove she had been shot the first time somewhere other than Nevill's side of the bed and then walked, crawled or was dragged to the other side before being shot again. But it wound up proving June had been the one who moved after being shot not Sheila. So it wound up being rather useless. That June walked to the other side of the bed and back doesn't reveal anything significant.
Did she do such to try to confront the killer or was the killer already out of the room and she went to see Nevill or was she just in a daze and walking aimlessly before turning around and moving towards the door? We can speculate but it doesn't help isolate which of the various possibilities actually happened.
There wasn't 5 carpets samples
-
I'd also go along with Caroline's theory that Bamber originally placed the bible, opened and face upwards on or by Sheila's lap, with her bloodied palm resting on page 567 and her blood-stained fingers on the nightie. For some reason he had a change of mind... maybe it looked too contrived with the rifle added, or the book wouldn't stay in position, so he modified his plan and planted it face downwards resting on the carpet blood pool near her upper arm, hoping no-one would notice that there would be a difference in the stain's appearance, page position and origin. Her fingers were then given a cursory wipe over to remove any blood, again for some unknown reason.
The marks on the nighty are not finger marks they are from the bottom palm/wrist. The mark in the bible is not a palm print the distinctive arks present on a hand are not readily observable. People are straining to say they see the attributes of a hand though the quality of the photo is far to poor to enable such.
The people who looked close up at the blood stains saw nothing to suggest it was a palm print.
The leap that this shows Jeremy planted the Bible on her then moved it after is in many ways similar to how little Jeremy supporters will have to go on and yet to say evidence supports them. Blowing up a Bible photo in hopes of seeing palm lines is not much better than blowing them up to hope to see scratched in the mantle.
I'm going to respect the people who looked close up at Sheila's hands and Sheila's the Bible stain. They say the blood was on the outside of her palm and back of her fingers. They said the stain on her gown was from her wrist/outer palm. They fingerprinted the Bible but saw no signs of any prints in blood. I am going to stick with that over saying they were wrong based on the blowing up of the Bible blood stain and blood stain on the own both of which still fail to provide enough detail to (sorry for my sport metaphor but I have been watching some classic legendary football games today) overturn the ruling on the field.
-
Looking at the image in post #85 would SC's head have fallen to the side of the cabinet? Surely she would have fallen straight back? The pathologist didn't note any bruising to her head which might have been expected if her head hit the side/corner or front of the cabinet?
It's a pity we don't have a photo showing that whole area of the room. It strikes me as convenient that SC wasn't blocking the entrance to the box room which PCs Collins and Delgado entered prior to any officer entering any of the other upstairs rooms. Instead she is parallel with the edge of the bed.
Anyway back to the bloody bible given we don't even know whose blood was on it I don't really see how anything can be advanced? Plus:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454
The big question for me is why wasn't the bible blood tested?
-
Looking at the image in post #85 would SC's head have fallen to the side of the cabinet? Surely she would have fallen straight back? The pathologist didn't note any bruising to her head which might have been expected if her head hit the side/corner or front of the cabinet?
It's a pity we don't have a photo showing that whole area of the room. It strikes me as convenient that SC wasn't blocking the entrance to the box room which PCs Collins and Delgado entered prior to any officer entering any of the other upstairs rooms. Instead she is parallel with the edge of the bed.
Anyway back to the bloody bible given we don't even know whose blood was on it I don't really see how anything can be advanced? Plus:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454
The big question for me is why wasn't the bible blood tested?
We don't know that it wasn't.
-
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.
-
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.
I would say 'someone' lifted her head from under her neck which tilted her head back and blood flowed from her mouth. I have my own ideas of what went on but have learned to keep some things to myself.
-
We don't know that it wasn't.
Yes that's true which begs the question why the defence didn't check this out assuming they were aware it contained blood?
On 19th Sept '86 Dr Lincoln sent JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, a letter outlining his visit to the FSS where he checked the following exhibits containing blood:
- Sound moderator
- Rifle
- Pieces of carpet
- Socks
- Watch
- Tufts of fibre
- Jacket
- Bathrobe
- Citroen Car
- Wallpaper
- Nightdress
No mention of the bible?
If the blood staining in the bible supported the prosecution case then why not use it?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939
Paul Terzeon claims he was unaware of the open pages of the bible:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
The bible was fingerprinted. Reference to it was made at trial by DC Hammersely in the crime scene photos but I don't know whether it was physically produced as an exhibit?
The prosecution confirm with DC Hammersley he seized the bible (exhibit DRH/44) on 9th Aug. The prosecution then move swiftly to the blood stained wallpaper. Why no mention of the blood staining in the bible?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
Is there any firm evidence the bible was returned to the relatives?
-
John Hayward makes reference to testing numerous exhbits but no mention whatsoever of the bible:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.msg4425#msg4425
-
I would say 'someone' lifted her head from under her neck which tilted her head back and blood flowed from her mouth. I have my own ideas of what went on but have learned to keep some things to myself.
Oh come on Caro pray tell...
-
Yes that's true which begs the question why the defence didn't check this out assuming they were aware it contained blood?
On 19th Sept '86 Dr Lincoln sent JB's solicitor, Paul Terzeon, a letter outlining his visit to the FSS where he checked the following exhibits containing blood:
- Sound moderator
- Rifle
- Pieces of carpet
- Socks
- Watch
- Tufts of fibre
- Jacket
- Bathrobe
- Citroen Car
- Wallpaper
- Nightdress
No mention of the bible?
If the blood staining in the bible supported the prosecution case then why not use it?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939
Paul Terzeon claims he was unaware of the open pages of the bible:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
The bible was fingerprinted. Reference to it was made at trial by DC Hammersely in the crime scene photos but I don't know whether it was physically produced as an exhibit?
The prosecution confirm with DC Hammersley he seized the bible (exhibit DRH/44) on 9th Aug. The prosecution then move swiftly to the blood stained wallpaper. Why no mention of the blood staining in the bible?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221
Is there any firm evidence the bible was returned to the relatives?
I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.
Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.
I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.
-
I'm wondering if SC was on her side at some point? Most of the blood from her mouth has fallen onto only one side of her nightie, the lines of blood are on her Left side looking at photo. She even had blood in her left ear.
According to the pathologist SC was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up. See point 5:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672
But this seems to be based on the blood staining to her nightie and arm and I guess assumes she was not moved at SoC prior to being removed from WHF.
-
I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.
Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.
I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.
From the CoA:
416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.
-
I'm not sure how the bible could strengthen the prosecutions case? If it is Sheila's hand print or a stain from the carpet; it proves nothing other than she touched the bible, someone staged it or it picked up blood from the floor (although I believe this is highly unlikely). One thing it would bring into question (if it is a palm print), is the notion that Sheila's hands were clean and implications for the hand swabs, although if staged, as Myster pointed out, 'someone' could have wiped them. This may be why little GSR was found on her hands.
Personally, I think it was staged on her lap but moved because it looked too staged and replaced by the rifle.
I have seen several references in respect to the bible being returned to the relatives - the latest is in CAL's book. It was (according to CAL) returned in 2006 - page 408.
Thanks. I've just read page 408 of my copy. CAL's book is good in terms of reiterating what happened by way of WS's and interviews etc and putting it all into a narrative but imo she's absolutely hopeless at any sort of independent thought/research to raise questions, anomalies etc.
I've pointed out the legal position on trial exhibits here along with the CoA's position on the destruction of exhibits in 1996 pertaining to JB's case. Why would the bible be singled out and saved from destruction in 1996 when it appears all other exhibits were destroyed, other than the rifle and silencer, and then be returned to the relatives in 2006?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=977.msg328411#msg328411
-
From the CoA:
416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.
That comment is in respect to the Jeremy and the defence seemingly knowing that the open pages had some significance and had a fuss been made of it at trial, it would beg the question of how he knew there was significance. The blood on the bible has less significance because it doesn't point to guilt or innocence unless ..........
-
That comment is in respect to the Jeremy and the defence seemingly knowing that the open pages had some significance and had a fuss been made of it at trial, it would beg the question of how he knew there was significance. The blood on the bible has less significance because it doesn't point to guilt or innocence unless ..........
According to Paul Terzeon he enquired about the open pages and was told they were unknown:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
DI Miller apparently sent DC Barlow to seek opinion from a local rector of any potential significance in the open pages:
410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:
"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"
411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.
It seems a photo of the bible was placed before the jury but which photo? It seems this was an overall SoC photo.
406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.
It appears photos of the blood staining were taken at some other location:
407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
Pray tell Caro... Please don't leave us all breathless with anticipation...!!!!!!!!!
-
According to Paul Terzeon he enquired about the open pages and was told they were unknown:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
DI Miller apparently sent DC Barlow to seek opinion from a local rector of any potential significance in the open pages:
410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:
"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"
411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.
It seems a photo of the bible was placed before the jury but which photo? It seems this was an overall SoC photo.
406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.
It appears photos of the blood staining were taken at some other location:
407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
Pray tell Caro... Please don't leave us all breathless with anticipation...!!!!!!!!!
They didn't peruse it and didn't request to look at the bible at trial. If they were that bothered, they would have made an issue of it - and didn't.
-
They didn't peruse it and didn't request to look at the bible at trial. If they were that bothered, they would have made an issue of it - and didn't.
If Paul Terzeon is correct and he was told the pages were an unknown and the bible was missing then surely the thing to do was to take it up with the chief investigating officer and get something in writing for the file to cover one's botty!
-
According to the pathologist SC was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up. See point 5:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=672
But this seems to be based on the blood staining to her nightie and arm and I guess assumes she was not moved at SoC prior to being removed from WHF.
This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.
You keep referring to post conviction assessments (brought out during the 2002 appeal. What those assessments assert is that Sheila was shot while seated propped up against something, her neck was bent to her right side (the wounds were also to the right) and the blood flowed down her right shoulder/breast area. Shortly after dying she was dragged flat and then the blood flow changed. It ran down the side of her arm and down the side of her neck pooling next to her and the Bible was finally placed in such pool of blood.
Vanezis said she was seated during the first shot and remained so after thus resulting in the blood going down her right side. Moreover he recognized she put her palm/wrist to her wound resulting in blood leaking down her forearm. Where Vanezis differed from the argument made at the appeal is that he claimed she fell flat immediately after the second shot from the force of the shot while the post conviction experts said she was dragged flat.
Vanezis screwed up. He failed to recognize that Sheila would have to be propped against something in order to remain partially seated after the first shot. he simply pretended that she was sitting in the middle of the floor and either shot herself or was shot then in the same location shot herself again or was shot again then because she died she fell flat and the blood flow changed.
Because he failed to recognize she was propped against something he failed to recognize she was dragged flat subsequently. The blood lab experts failed to consider the issue either.
If their failure had been due to a lack of scientific knowledge about these issues and new science available in 2002 led to the government experts recognizing this then it would have been able to be used in the appeal. But it wasn't new science it was simply negligence on the part of Vanezis and the others that they failed to recognize the significance of this. The know-how existed in 1985 they simply didn't failed to properly consider it.
They also failed to properly consider that the Bible being placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death proves someone else had to be there to place it in such pool of blood. This was the second new argument made on appeal. It too was rejected for the same reason- the experts had enough know-how to realize this if they properly evaluated the scene. That they failed to do so until after the conviction is their tough luck.
Let's contrast this with DNA. They didn't know about DNA at the tie so reasonably didn't have the ability to do NA testing. If DNA testing were to prove Bamber the killer such could be used on appeal to argue against his release but the only things the jury did not consider that the government can use are things the government reasonably could not have known about at the time of trial.
The blood flow issues are pretty basic either they dropped the ball or they intentionally chose not to use such argument because they felt they didn't need to or felt it would muddy up the works. There are no documents that suggest the prosecution experts realized this issue so most likely it is the former but either way it can't be used.
The same exact rules apply to the defense. Things they could and should have known about they can't use on appeal. Only things they reasonably could not have known about can be used. Many times on TV you see lawyers playing games and objections being made and sustained. On these shows it is to try to poison the jury with ideas that they can't really make. While that exists to a limited extent in real life the main reason lawyers object is to preserve an issue for appeal. You can only appeal on arguments you make and lose in court. So many maneuverings are to get things in the record. If you fail to make an argument and get it in the record you can't make it on appeal except where you reasonably had no ability to know about such argument.
This is where making up that the Bible was lost comes into play. The defense made up that he Bible was lost to say they had no ability to examine it and thus reasonably had no ability to figure out what page it had been opened to. Since it was a trial exhibit they could indeed have looked at it had they wanted to the court held and thus their argument was invalid. But they tried...
-
This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.
You keep referring to post conviction assessments (brought out during the 2002 appeal. What those assessments assert is that Sheila was shot while seated propped up against something, her neck was bent to her right side (the wounds were also to the right) and the blood flowed down her right shoulder/breast area. Shortly after dying she was dragged flat and then the blood flow changed. It ran down the side of her arm and down the side of her neck pooling next to her and the Bible was finally placed in such pool of blood.
Vanezis said she was seated during the first shot and remained so after thus resulting in the blood going down her right side. Moreover he recognized she put her palm/wrist to her wound resulting in blood leaking down her forearm. Where Vanezis differed from the argument made at the appeal is that he claimed she fell flat immediately after the second shot from the force of the shot while the post conviction experts said she was dragged flat.
Vanezis screwed up. He failed to recognize that Sheila would have to be propped against something in order to remain partially seated after the first shot. he simply pretended that she was sitting in the middle of the floor and either shot herself or was shot then in the same location shot herself again or was shot again then because she died she fell flat and the blood flow changed.
Because he failed to recognize she was propped against something he failed to recognize she was dragged flat subsequently. The blood lab experts failed to consider the issue either.
If their failure had been due to a lack of scientific knowledge about these issues and new science available in 2002 led to the government experts recognizing this then it would have been able to be used in the appeal. But it wasn't new science it was simply negligence on the part of Vanezis and the others that they failed to recognize the significance of this. The know-how existed in 1985 they simply didn't failed to properly consider it.
They also failed to properly consider that the Bible being placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death proves someone else had to be there to place it in such pool of blood. This was the second new argument made on appeal. It too was rejected for the same reason- the experts had enough know-how to realize this if they properly evaluated the scene. That they failed to do so until after the conviction is their tough luck.
Let's contrast this with DNA. They didn't know about DNA at the tie so reasonably didn't have the ability to do NA testing. If DNA testing were to prove Bamber the killer such could be used on appeal to argue against his release but the only things the jury did not consider that the government can use are things the government reasonably could not have known about at the time of trial.
The blood flow issues are pretty basic either they dropped the ball or they intentionally chose not to use such argument because they felt they didn't need to or felt it would muddy up the works. There are no documents that suggest the prosecution experts realized this issue so most likely it is the former but either way it can't be used.
The same exact rules apply to the defense. Things they could and should have known about they can't use on appeal. Only things they reasonably could not have known about can be used. Many times on TV you see lawyers playing games and objections being made and sustained. On these shows it is to try to poison the jury with ideas that they can't really make. While that exists to a limited extent in real life the main reason lawyers object is to preserve an issue for appeal. You can only appeal on arguments you make and lose in court. So many maneuverings are to get things in the record. If you fail to make an argument and get it in the record you can't make it on appeal except where you reasonably had no ability to know about such argument.
This is where making up that the Bible was lost comes into play. The defense made up that he Bible was lost to say they had no ability to examine it and thus reasonably had no ability to figure out what page it had been opened to. Since it was a trial exhibit they could indeed have looked at it had they wanted to the court held and thus their argument was invalid. But they tried...
I've learned something new today...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454
-
This is a perfect example of not only how lazy Vanezis was but also thoughtless. He never tried to plug in all the evidence together in making his assessment of whether she committed suicide. He left ti to other experts to deal with most of the evidence other than the physical injuries.
Vanezis has been telling porky pies
-
Vanezis has been telling porky pies
Not necessarily.
-
That's an interesting post from John via Holly!
Could this also mean that SC's wasn't the last person killed that night?
-
Vanezis has been telling porky pies
Are you able to elaborate David?
There's no evidence that any of the experts, including JB's defence, had any significant experience with firearms as might be expected given the low incidence in the UK of cases involving firearms.
-
That's an interesting post from John via Holly!
Could this also mean that SC's wasn't the last person killed that night?
I'm not sure? I just took it to mean that blood can leak from a deceased person hours later whether the person is moved or not?
-
I should have said....
Could this also bring into the equation that maybe Sheila wasn't the last person killed. The order of the families deaths seemed important to JB and his solicitor, probably to do with the inheritance.
The night of the murders JB says the family were discussing the twins being fostered, yet a friend spoke of a phone call from June Bamber where June spoke of adopting the twins as SC' couldn't look after them properly, and she was worried the twins would be taken away to be fostered. If JB was aware of this fact it would mean the twins would share the families inheritance with SC and JB.
-
I should have said....
Could this also bring into the equation that maybe Sheila wasn't the last person killed. The order of the families deaths seemed important to JB and his solicitor, probably to do with the inheritance.
The night of the murders JB says the family were discussing the twins being fostered, yet a friend spoke of a phone call from June Bamber where June spoke of adopting the twins as SC' couldn't look after them properly, and she was worried the twins would be taken away to be fostered. If JB was aware of this fact it would mean the twins would share the families inheritance with SC and JB.
Opal Hello. Blue is peppered with apocryphal stories. This MAY be another. To the best of my knowledge, June and Nevill weren't even the children's legal guardians and Colin would NEVER have agreed to such a move. Something, I feel certain, June would have been aware of.
-
Are you able to elaborate David?
There's no evidence that any of the experts, including JB's defence, had any significant experience with firearms as might be expected given the low incidence in the UK of cases involving firearms.
Like I said previously, the palm print would have implications for the notion that Sheila's hands were clean. However, if it was planted by the killer and the killer changed their mind (for whatever reason), then they could easily have wiped her hands.
-
I've learned something new today...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=334.msg328454#msg328454
When the heart is pumping it will pump blood out of wounds. When the heart stops pumping blood will largely stop flowing. It will only continue to flow as a result of gravity. So any blood above a wound can still flow out as a result of gravity. Even after the heart stopped any blood in Sheila's head could still leak out of her neck wound theoretically. When she was flat though there was a limited amount of blood that could flow out as a result of gravity. That is why the pool of blood that ran down the side of her neck is limited. Only if her heart was still pumping would blood circulate from lower regions to her upper regions and be in a position to be forced out while she was flat.
The blood didn't flow on top of the Bible which is what would happen if the Bible was there as she bled on top of it. The Bible was placed in the blood after it was already there. The only blood that leaked onto the Bible from her body was the blood that ran down the side of her arm. It moreso hit the piece of paper sticking out of the Bible though. The blood on her arm and the paper doesn't line up perfectly which means there was a little movement at some point. Experts say this is another sign she was murdered and that someone moved the body. Given how slight the movement was I don't rule out police though as being able to do it. If it was substantial movement then in that case I would say police didn't do it but considering how slight I consider it theoretically possible without them even realizing they did it and without intending to do it.
-
Vanezis has been telling porky pies
No he was just lazy and did not do what he should have. Inspite of his negligence they caught Jeremy but they might not have which is why people were so disturbed that they commissioned the Dickinson Report.
-
Opal Hello. Blue is peppered with apocryphal stories. This MAY be another. To the best of my knowledge, June and Nevill weren't even the children's legal guardians and Colin would NEVER have agreed to such a move. Something, I feel certain, June would have been aware of.
If you care to read CC's mother's WS (Mrs Doris Brencher (DB)) on "Blue" you will see that June discusses her fears with DB that the twins might be fostered. However unlikely this might be in the legal sense of child custody it's a fear June might have created in SC. Bearing in mind both women were mentally unwell.
-
Like I said previously, the palm print would have implications for the notion that Sheila's hands were clean. However, if it was planted by the killer and the killer changed their mind (for whatever reason), then they could easily have wiped her hands.
Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?
-
Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?
Depends what you mean by 'expert'?
-
When the heart is pumping it will pump blood out of wounds. When the heart stops pumping blood will largely stop flowing. It will only continue to flow as a result of gravity. So any blood above a wound can still flow out as a result of gravity. Even after the heart stopped any blood in Sheila's head could still leak out of her neck wound theoretically. When she was flat though there was a limited amount of blood that could flow out as a result of gravity. That is why the pool of blood that ran down the side of her neck is limited. Only if her heart was still pumping would blood circulate from lower regions to her upper regions and be in a position to be forced out while she was flat.
The blood didn't flow on top of the Bible which is what would happen if the Bible was there as she bled on top of it. The Bible was placed in the blood after it was already there. The only blood that leaked onto the Bible from her body was the blood that ran down the side of her arm. It moreso hit the piece of paper sticking out of the Bible though. The blood on her arm and the paper doesn't line up perfectly which means there was a little movement at some point. Experts say this is another sign she was murdered and that someone moved the body. Given how slight the movement was I don't rule out police though as being able to do it. If it was substantial movement then in that case I would say police didn't do it but considering how slight I consider it theoretically possible without them even realizing they did it and without intending to do it.
I started to read what happens to the body post death and became grossed out and I've no intention of going there again!
John said his farm animals can bleed post death some 24 hours later. Are animals different from humans in this regard?
Why were photos of the blood staining on the bible taken elsewhere and not at SoC?
-
Depends what you mean by 'expert'?
Someone having the ncessary qualifications to act as an expert witness in a criminal trial.
I guess someone with relevant qualifciations in bloodstain pattern analysis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis
-
Someone having the ncessary qualifications to act as an expert witness in a criminal trial.
I guess someone with relevant qualifciations in blood pattern analysis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis
Then in that case, not as far as I know.
-
If you care to read CC's mother's WS (Mrs Doris Brencher (DB)) on "Blue" you will see that June discusses her fears with DB that the twins might be fostered. However unlikely this might be in the legal sense of child custody it's a fear June might have created in SC. Bearing in mind both women were mentally unwell.
I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.
-
Then in that case, not as far as I know.
Fair enough. Sometimes amateur sleuths can deliever results due to the fact that they are not under commercial constraints ie time is money. This has happened in other cases.
Any ideas why, according to the 3 appeal court judges, photos of the blood stains were taken elsewhere and not at SoC?
(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background? I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)
-
I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.
Fair enough but if June herself had fears the twins might be fostered, as discussed with Doris Brencher, then June may have created the same fear in SC bearing in mind, as I said, both women were mentally unwell and suffered from delusions.
Often if a parent has a fear, irrational or not, they can create the same fear in their children?
June told SC she was the Devil's child and SC then became concerned that God didn't love her.
-
Fair enough but if June herself had fears the twins might be fostered, as discussed with Doris Brencher, then June may have created the same fear in SC bearing in mind, as I said, both women were mentally unwell and suffered from delusions.
Often if a parent has a fear, irrational or not, they can create the same fear in their children?
June told SC she was the Devil's child and SC then became concerned that God didn't love her.
Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.
Below is two extracts I pasted from a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)
Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.
As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.
-
Fair enough. Sometimes amateur sleuths can deliever results due to the fact that they are not under commercial constraints ie time is money. This has happened in other cases.
Any ideas why, according to the 3 appeal court judges, photos of the blood stains were taken elsewhere and not at SoC?
(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background? I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)
They are talking about the open bible, it was most likely photographed by SOCO, back at the police station - but that's just a guess.
(I like the pink - cherry blossom reminds me of summer but some blue wouldn't hurt).
-
Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.
Below is two extracts I pasted from a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)
Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.
As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.
And there will be as many (if not MORE) instances of children who kill their parents for the inheritance. What's your point?
-
(As an aside do you think the pink in my avatar clashes with the background? I'm wondering if a lighter pink with blue sky might go better?)
Think you'd better have mine, otherwise I'll be coming out with embarrassing puns such as "What a Gay Day!", "My friend, Everard!" and "Kiss my Astraka...."
http://deskbg.com/i/c/1920x1200/wpp/0/440/cherry-blossom-desktop-background.jpg (http://deskbg.com/i/c/1920x1200/wpp/0/440/cherry-blossom-desktop-background.jpg)
-
Iv have got my hands on an abundance of scientific studies on schizophrenic women who commit murder.
Its rather interesting.
Below is two extracts I pasted from a study called Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study with female forensic patients (2007)
Prototypical for the infanticide cluster in our sample was a 30 year-old, divorced, white woman from a middle-class family. She killed her 9-month old daughter by setting fire to the crib after getting angry and suspicious that her husband's family wanted to take the baby away from her. She had been suffering from an acute psychotic reaction with paranoid and depressive features.
As a second group, filicide was identified as having its own motivational profile. This cluster was defined by
severely depressed mothers with a history of self-directed violence. These women tended to kill an older child by
stabbing, and they often end up trying to commit suicide right after the filicidal offence. The connection with suicide attempts supported the hypothesis that there was a different underlying syndrome that predisposed these women to kill an older child. Within this group, psychosocial factors played less of a role than psychological ones. Our findings indicated that a history of child abuse together with a history of depression was mainly associated with this cluster.
What's so interesting? It is not even remotely like anything that allegedly happened in this case.
-
Is there any expert evidence that the blood staining was indicative of a palm print?
No this suggestion has come from people who never even saw the photos in their hand let alone the body. No experts who took part in the case at any stage assessed such. It is speculation from amateurs who looked images blown up on the computer.
The lab personnel who examined the Bible observed no prints of any kind in the blood they only found ordinary finger prints. They found the prints of what they believed were children because the finger prints were so small and of June.
-
I was referring to the allegation that June spoke of adopting the twins. I think it highly likely that she planted, in Sheila's mind, the seed of their being fostered.
Hi April!
The point I was trying to make regarding the twins adoption or fostering hours before the murders is that we only have JB's say so that this conversation actually took place. The "fostering" was just 'Day Fostering' which had happened before when SC's was living in London. So therefore if the conversation did take place that night, it wasn't anything new to Sheila. It is actually stated that Sheila enjoyed the free time that the twins spent in 'Day Fostering' .
-
Hi April!
The point I was trying to make regarding the twins adoption or fostering hours before the murders is that we only have JB's say so that this conversation actually took place. The "fostering" was just 'Day Fostering' which had happened before when SC's was living in London. So therefore if the conversation did take place that night, it wasn't anything new to Sheila. It is actually stated that Sheila enjoyed the free time that the twins spent in 'Day Fostering' .
Opal, indeed we do only have Jeremy's word for ANY conversation which occurred at WHF that night.
I would hazard a guess that freedom from the twins may not have been Sheila's only enjoyment whilst in London. I suspect she became more her own person when she was away from June. I think it likely that June was able to reduce Sheila to the status of a needy child causing all her childhood fears and guilt to surface.
-
Yes I agree April, In my opinion June was struggling with her own religious problems, and therefore no help to SC. I can quite see why SC didn't want to stay at WHF. But, was this the discussion on the night? It's the statement from BW on ringing the house at around 9.30 pm stating that Neville was short with her, and her comments that she felt all was not well at this time, that has me wondering.
Points that night:
JB. leaves the kitchen to shoot at rabbits
NB leaves kitchen soon after.
JB. leaves NB to collect the last rape collection. Why? JB had been there all day, why not finish the job unless after row with NB..JB walked out leaving gun on settle knowing it would upset NB.
Was JB still at the farm arguing with NB when BW rang? Could possibly have been!
All was quiet at farm by 10.00pm when June's sister rang. NB being out on tractor.....June states that SC was just off to bed.
Julie M states JB said he pissed off when he spoke to her.
-
Yes I agree April, In my opinion June was struggling with her own religious problems, and therefore no help to SC. I can quite see why SC didn't want to stay at WHF. But, was this the discussion on the night? It's the statement from BW on ringing the house at around 9.30 pm stating that Neville was short with her, and her comments that she felt all was not well at this time, that has me wondering.
Points that night:
JB. leaves the kitchen to shoot at rabbits
NB leaves kitchen soon after.
JB. leaves NB to collect the last rape collection. Why? JB had been there all day, why not finish the job unless after row with NB..JB walked out leaving gun on settle knowing it would upset NB.
Was JB still at the farm arguing with NB when BW rang? Could possibly have been!
All was quiet at farm by 10.00pm when June's sister rang. NB being out on tractor.....June states that SC was just off to bed.
Julie M states JB said he pissed off when he spoke to her.
This is something I have questioned, personally I think they had an argument and Jeremy stormed off. I don't think he left the gun on the settle - if he had already loaded it, he would have had to leave it somewhere where it wouldn't be noticed.
Another thing, initially he said he had shot at the rabbits, he later changed his mind. I guess he realised that had he shot at the bunnies, there would have to be some trace. If he missed, then there would be bullets in the vicinity, if he'd hit one, there would be either a dead rabbit or blood.
It's similar to when he was first arrested and asked about the windows at WHF. Once he found out police knew he could gain entry via a window and exit the same way (locking the window from the outside); he went to WHF entered through the window BUT left a note for BW to lock the window because he couldn't. This is blatantly a message to police to say "well, OK, I can get in, but I can't lock the window from the outside. See? I have to ask BW to lock it for me"
-
Yes I agree April, In my opinion June was struggling with her own religious problems, and therefore no help to SC. I can quite see why SC didn't want to stay at WHF. But, was this the discussion on the night? It's the statement from BW on ringing the house at around 9.30 pm stating that Neville was short with her, and her comments that she felt all was not well at this time, that has me wondering.
Points that night:
JB. leaves the kitchen to shoot at rabbits
NB leaves kitchen soon after.
JB. leaves NB to collect the last rape collection. Why? JB had been there all day, why not finish the job unless after row with NB..JB walked out leaving gun on settle knowing it would upset NB.
Was JB still at the farm arguing with NB when BW rang? Could possibly have been!
All was quiet at farm by 10.00pm when June's sister rang. NB being out on tractor.....June states that SC was just off to bed.
Julie M states JB said he pissed off when he spoke to her.
His claim he loaded the gun to go shoot rabbits is not the least bit credible. It never happened and thus plays no role in whatever argument they had. That argument could have been over something as simple as Jeremy failing to get all his work done.
He had been planning to commit the murders anyway. There is no way to know whether he would have lacked the guts to follow through with his plan if the "argument" had never happened. I personally don't think the alleged row had anything to do with him following through I think he would have done it anyway and that what pissed him off was having to labor period which is what he complained about to Julie that very night.
He didn't want to work hard. If there were an opportunity to kill someone to obtain 1 million pounds he would have taken that opportunity instead. The only opportunity he saw was to kill his family to get their wealth. That he didn't like his family helped make it even easier for him to rationalize killing them. But criminals will make up all sorts of nonsense to rationalize their behavior and anything will do even though objective people looking at such rationalizations find them absurd.
-
His claim he loaded the gun to go shoot rabbits is not the least bit credible. It never happened and thus plays no role in whatever argument they had. That argument could have been over something as simple as Jeremy failing to get all his work done.
Could be right Scipio, but JB had to give a reason for handling the gun hence the 'Shooting Rabbits' scenario...true or not. It's JB that also states that he returned to house between 8.9 pm "I was popping in and out between loads from combining the rape seed". Neville was seen about 9.00 pm in the yard by Phillip Wilson.
who states NB looked tired but calm, yet 1/2 hour later at 9.30 pm Phillip's mother BW states that NB was short with her on the phone and she thought there was an argument going on in the house. JB states he asked his father to collect the last load of bale from field, was this what the argument was about as you suggest! JB then states he left the house not saying goodbye to anyone. A neighbour heard his car roar off around 9.30 pm. So around the same time of BW's phone call.
l
-
JB did say goodnight to everybody, or so he would have us believe. Love listening to this audio... he tells more tall tales than Tesko!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151)
-
Bamber may have gone out to shoot rabbits. Although he would not have seen any.
Pretending to see rabbits gives him an excuse to load the rifle.
After going outside and by his own admission not firing any shots, he put the rifle where he could easily access it later. This may have been hidden away. However with five people in the house, that was risky. If the gun cupboard was never locked, it was just as easy to put it back in there.
-
Bamber may have gone out to shoot rabbits. Although he would not have seen any.
Pretending to see rabbits gives him an excuse to load the rifle.
After going outside and by his own admission not firing any shots, he put the rifle where he could easily access it later. This may have been hidden away. However with five people in the house, that was risky. If the gun cupboard was never locked, it was just as easy to put it back in there.
Leaving the rifle out when he knew his two young nephews were coming to stay was a total giveaway. Bamber must think we're all stupid.
-
If Bamber left WHF after supper with Neville and June still up and awake, then one of them would have put the rifle away. Especially if he had left it in plain view in an area both of them visited.
However the only other option was to say Sheila went into the gun cupboard to get the gun.
-
Bamber had to set the scene for Sheila having an available loaded rifle. To say Sheila went into the gun cupboard and then loaded a rifle was too daft. So he made up another story which was also not credible.
-
Could be right Scipio, but JB had to give a reason for handling the gun hence the 'Shooting Rabbits' scenario...true or not. It's JB that also states that he returned to house between 8.9 pm "I was popping in and out between loads from combining the rape seed". Neville was seen about 9.00 pm in the yard by Phillip Wilson.
who states NB looked tired but calm, yet 1/2 hour later at 9.30 pm Phillip's mother BW states that NB was short with her on the phone and she thought there was an argument going on in the house. JB states he asked his father to collect the last load of bale from field, was this what the argument was about as you suggest! JB then states he left the house not saying goodbye to anyone. A neighbour heard his car roar off around 9.30 pm. So around the same time of BW's phone call.
l
The gun was never stored loaded. Many people would not buy that Sheila went to the closet to get the gun and to load it let alone that she went and got it and loaded it while arguing with Nevill and that Nevill did nothing to take the weapon as she was loading it. It takes 2 hands to load a magazine she would have to put the weapon down where it could be grabbed.
Jeremy's made up tale of getting the gun out to go after rabbits, loading it in the kitchen leaving the extra ammunition by the phone, and then leaving the gun out as well as the fully loaded magazine and bullets was simply a way to deal with this problem.
His made up tale of the gun being left out with a loaded magazine eliminates the need for Sheila to go to the closet to get the weapon out and the need for her to load the magazine thus giving Nevill the opportunity to safely disarm her. He even provided an ammunition source for her to reload from instead of having to go to the closet to look for ammo.
Instead of making up that he loaded the gun in the office then ran outside, he made up the extra step of taking the ammunition into the kitchen to load it there by the phone. This takes extra time and makes no sense at all. He made up this just to pretend that there was a supply to reload from and during or after the murders the staged bullets to support this lie. The notion June saw them during the phone conversation and left them there is nonsense. He botched this planting of evidence by leaving too many bullets though. He said the box was near full or full he could not remember which but knew it had already been opened. If full that means 50 rounds. 25 were used in the murders so no more than 25 should have remained if his story were true yet 30 were in the kitchen. This proves his tale was a lie and that he staged them.
So at its core his lie was to suggest Sheila got mad and grabbed a loaded weapon of opportunity that was lying around and an extra ammunition supply nearby as well. In addition this lie accounted for any prints that might be found on the shell casings and weapon but he already had an excuse for his prints being on the weapon since he used it prior. Moreso this would be in case any prints were on the casings. The last main value is that he described how he left the gun- without the scope and without the moderator. By saying this was how he left it out and this is the state in which it was found police did not even consider whether there had been a moderator or scope.
The gun was stored with the scope and moderator attached and that is also how it was always used. Had Jeremy actually gone to the closet to get the weapon to go after rabbits that is how he would have found it. He removed the scope himself in anticipation of committing the murders because the scope would inhibit accurate aiming at close quarters. He used the moderator then removed it and put it away and made up that it was not attached so police would not suspect it even existed let alone was used.
-
Quote - - Instead of making up that he loaded the gun in the office then ran outside, he made up the extra step of taking the ammunition into the kitchen to load it there by the phone.
JB does state exactly where he loaded the magazine. His parents and Sheila were seated directly behind him at the table, but said nothing to him. Sheila faced away from the dresser and 'would have had a good view of what I was doing'. JB therefore insinuates to the police SC must have then used the gun later.... In old photos showing NB he is sitting with back to agar with one twin on his lap. I don't know about anyone else, but I have my own places to sit in our house as do most heads of the house 8(0(*
If NB had his own chair then it could have possibly been where he is photo'd.
-
If NB had his own chair then it could have possibly been where he is photo'd.
-
Have now found photos of kitchen at WHF set for breakfast the day after the murders. ( one photo is on the Bamber website!) This photo shows two smaller dishes and two larger dishes, alongside papers/mags, the smaller dishes are placed where JB says his parents were sitting having supper. The other photo I found shows two small stools knocked over by the side of the table that JB states his parents were sitting. I think JB was lying about the positions his parents were sitting on the night of the murders purely to imply that SC could see him best from her position.
-
And there will be as many (if not MORE) instances of children who kill their parents for the inheritance. What's your point?
Considering there was discussions about foster care for the twins and Sheila recently had her Haloperidol dosage halved, the circumstances adhere to the studies, that's my point
-
Considering there was discussions about foster care for the twins and Sheila recently had her Haloperidol dosage halved, the circumstances adhere to the studies, that's my point
How many featured a cut from 200MG to 100MG? None since 200MG is not considered a safe regular dosage and 100MG is considered the maximum safe regular dosage. So in all such instances dosages less than 100MG were cut in half.
How many featured women committing suicide with a firearm after shooting not only their kids but parents?
If you want to look in detail at the common paradigms you will find that the scenario Jeremy crafted in this case fails to fit any of them. Her dose was cut 3 weeks earlier without any result noticed. She had plenty of opportunity to kill her kids with a knife and then commit suicide. Jeremy's farce only holds up if one doesn't try to look into things in detail and simplistically just says crazy people will do anything.
-
How many featured a cut from 200MG to 100MG? None since 200MG is not considered a safe regular dosage and 100MG is considered the maximum safe regular dosage. So in all such instances dosages less than 100MG were cut in half.
How many featured women committing suicide with a firearm after shooting not only their kids but parents?
If you want to look in detail at the common paradigms you will find that the scenario Jeremy crafted in this case fails to fit any of them. Her dose was cut 3 weeks earlier without any result noticed. She had plenty of opportunity to kill her kids with a knife and then commit suicide. Jeremy's farce only holds up if one doesn't try to look into things in detail and simplistically just says crazy people will do anything.
This is from a study in 2007 called - The Role of Affect Regulation in a Case of Attempted Maternal Filicide–Suicide
The authors conducted a retrospective review of 30 records from coroners’ cases of filicide–suicide in the U.S. occurring from 1958 to 2002. These cases were screened for characteristics that might be specific to this kind of crime. Their findings for the mothers reveal that the filicide–suicide perpetrators presented a high rate of mental illness: 90% of the mothers had a history of psychiatric treatment and/or ongoing symptoms of a mood or thought disorder. Records showed that evidence of depressive symptoms could be found in 70% of the mothers, 30% showed signs of psychosis and 20% had a previously documented suicide attempt. However, information on this last point was incomplete. The mean age of the mothers was 31.8 years; most of them were married (70%) and unemployed (70%). Only one out of ten mothers had previously been charged for physical assault. The age of the victims killed by their mothers ranged from 3 months to 11 years. None of the mothers was reported to have attempted to kill their spouse. Previous domestic violence was noted in 30% of the mothers’ households, but none of the filicide–suicides appeared to be the culmination of abusive mother–childrelationships. The length of time that the mothers considered suicide and/or filicide prior to the act ranged from a complete lack of planning to several weeks. The authors conclude that the characteristics of this population differed from the traditional risk factors for violence (young—substance abuse—prior convictions for violence).
-
This is from a study in 2007 called - The Role of Affect Regulation in a Case of Attempted Maternal Filicide–Suicide
The authors conducted a retrospective review of 30 records from coroners’ cases of filicide–suicide in the U.S. occurring from 1958 to 2002. These cases were screened for characteristics that might be specific to this kind of crime. Their findings for the mothers reveal that the filicide–suicide perpetrators presented a high rate of mental illness: 90% of the mothers had a history of psychiatric treatment and/or ongoing symptoms of a mood or thought disorder. Records showed that evidence of depressive symptoms could be found in 70% of the mothers, 30% showed signs of psychosis and 20% had a previously documented suicide attempt. However, information on this last point was incomplete. The mean age of the mothers was 31.8 years; most of them were married (70%) and unemployed (70%). Only one out of ten mothers had previously been charged for physical assault. The age of the victims killed by their mothers ranged from 3 months to 11 years. None of the mothers was reported to have attempted to kill their spouse. Previous domestic violence was noted in 30% of the mothers’ households, but none of the filicide–suicides appeared to be the culmination of abusive mother–childrelationships. The length of time that the mothers considered suicide and/or filicide prior to the act ranged from a complete lack of planning to several weeks. The authors conclude that the characteristics of this population differed from the traditional risk factors for violence (young—substance abuse—prior convictions for violence).
Did ANY of these mothers kill their parents too as a job lot?
-
This is from a study in 2007 called - The Role of Affect Regulation in a Case of Attempted Maternal Filicide–Suicide
The authors conducted a retrospective review of 30 records from coroners’ cases of filicide–suicide in the U.S. occurring from 1958 to 2002. These cases were screened for characteristics that might be specific to this kind of crime. Their findings for the mothers reveal that the filicide–suicide perpetrators presented a high rate of mental illness: 90% of the mothers had a history of psychiatric treatment and/or ongoing symptoms of a mood or thought disorder. Records showed that evidence of depressive symptoms could be found in 70% of the mothers, 30% showed signs of psychosis and 20% had a previously documented suicide attempt. However, information on this last point was incomplete. The mean age of the mothers was 31.8 years; most of them were married (70%) and unemployed (70%). Only one out of ten mothers had previously been charged for physical assault. The age of the victims killed by their mothers ranged from 3 months to 11 years. None of the mothers was reported to have attempted to kill their spouse. Previous domestic violence was noted in 30% of the mothers’ households, but none of the filicide–suicides appeared to be the culmination of abusive mother–childrelationships. The length of time that the mothers considered suicide and/or filicide prior to the act ranged from a complete lack of planning to several weeks. The authors conclude that the characteristics of this population differed from the traditional risk factors for violence (young—substance abuse—prior convictions for violence).
The differences are striking if one is not blind. There was no evidence of Sheila being depressed. She was employed, She was not married at the time. In pretty much all the cases you reference the other killed the kids then herself. There was few instances of killing anyone else and those few instances where they did kill others it was virtually always someone else in their care thus who were basically like the kids.
A barrier to committing suicide is dependents. People who want to commit suicide will feel like they have to kill dependents first so they can be freed of responsibility and thus no longer be needed. In small number of cases that has included feeble adults that they had to care for. Nevill and June were not dependents.
The studies you referenced also found that a majority of the women with mental illness were off their meds or not being treated period when they acted.
One has to ignore reality and strain severely to try fitting the claims of this case into any of the paradigms. There is a first time for everything but this is not it. The reason why this fails to fit any paradigm is quite clear, Jeremy killed everyone and tried unsuccessfully to frame Sheila.
-
Have now found photos of kitchen at WHF set for breakfast the day after the murders. ( one photo is on the Bamber website!) This photo shows two smaller dishes and two larger dishes, alongside papers/mags, the smaller dishes are placed where JB says his parents were sitting having supper. The other photo I found shows two small stools knocked over by the side of the table that JB states his parents were sitting. I think JB was lying about the positions his parents were sitting on the night of the murders purely to imply that SC could see him best from her position.
JB certainly laid it on thick when he implied that Sheila was closely observing him while he was stood at the kitchen worktop loading the magazine. Sheila thinks - "Good old Jem, he's filling it up ready for me to use later... and saving my manicured nails from getting broken!". Apparently he was side on to Sheila, which places her sat near to the Welsh Dresser with her back to it. His parents might have been sitting closer to the AGA on the opposite side of the table, Nevill in his usual chair, but both facing Jeremy's back. I think it likely that the stools were for the twins and they were going to have cereal for breakfast, hence the bowl place settings on the side of the table nearest to the worktop.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4572;image)
-
Why didn't Bamber put the rifle away himself ? It would only have taken him a few seconds.
It's normal to put things back where you found them after using them. It's why cupboards exist. Leaving a big, ugly and dengerous thing sprawled across a communal area in someone else's house is rather rude.
Did Neville or June not see him just leave the rifle in the middle of a communal area ?
Then during the rest of the evening Neville and June didn't notice the rifle. Or did notice it but didn't put it away. By coincidence Sheila woke up in the middle of that same night and decided to use the available loaded rifle.
-
This thread has branched out into a couple of different themes. I will move posts to relevant threads later. Meanwhile please try and stick to the existing themes in this thread. Otherwise threads become unwieldy and difficult to manage. If anyone wants to start new threads at any time then please do.
-
Why didn't Bamber put the rifle away himself ? It would only have taken him a few seconds. It's normal to put things back where you found them after using them. It's why cupboards exist. Leaving a big, ugly and dengerous thing sprawled across a communal area in someone else's house is rather rude.
Did Neville or June not see him just leave the rifle in the middle of a communal area ?
Then during the rest of the evening Neville and June didn't notice the rifle. Or did notice it but didn't put it away. By coincidence Sheila woke up in the middle of that same night and decided to use the available loaded rifle.
Firearms were found in various locations within WHF eg downstairs bathroom and an unused set of stairs. I think it extremely unlikely that NB would leave the rifle in what appeared to be a busy area of the working farm. Safety would paramount, especially with small children around, but also preserving the rifle from getting damaged by being knocked about.
Most domestic murder cases in the UK don't involve firearms as most don't have access to them. Instead they involve everyday household items such as knives, hammers and ligatures for strangling.
Dr F said SC discussed suicide ideation with him but he didn't think she was at risk. As far I'm aware that's all that is known in this regard.
I've no idea what sort of conversations might take place when a patient discusses suicide with a professional person. Surely the patient would be encouraged to talk to enable the professional person to determine whether the patient is at risk of harm and/or harming others. Ways of doing this might be trying to determine how the patient intends to carry out the act. A detailed plan might set the alarm bells ringing as opposed to something vague. Also the method might indicate what's going on in the patient's head. Another question might be how suicide would affect others especially young dependent children. This might also indicate whether any children involved are at risk of harm. Did SC have these sorts of conversations with Dr F?
Had JB been found not guilty the spotlight would have fallen on Dr F. CAL interviewed Dr F for her book. He said when he heard the verdict on the news "he was glad it wasn't SC after all". Well of course he was glad.
Then we come to the bizarre statistic that two babies born to middle class families and adopted into a middle class family produce the following outcome:
- Mentally ill adoptive mother (in-patient psychiatric care before either of her adopted children were even conceived linked with her inability to conceive birth children).
- Mentally ill adopted daughter
- Adopted son found guilty of murdering entire immediate family - 5 members
The reason I emphasise middle class (socio-economic group) is that the above had all the advantages pre and post adoption that might beset economically disadvantaged families such as poor perinatal care, housing, education etc. Also there's no evidence of any anti-social personality disorders in any of the families either birth or adoptive.
And the reason I emphasis adoption is for the obvious reason that the Bamber family was created by adoption/law and not birth/biology. I am just getting round to reading a book: 'The Psychology of adoption' by Dr's David Brodzinsky and Mashall Shechter. It's not a light read. I'll have to read it twice before I can deduce anything.
This leads me to conclude there was something far more complex at play than plain ol greed. &%+((£
-
For info:
A request has been made for a 'LIKE' button to be added to posts so I am happy to oblige. 'LIKE' statistics can be viewed from the header bar atop each page.
Should this function cause difficulties or be abused I will remove it.
John
-
The differences are striking if one is not blind. There was no evidence of Sheila being depressed. She was employed, She was not married at the time. In pretty much all the cases you reference the other killed the kids then herself. There was few instances of killing anyone else and those few instances where they did kill others it was virtually always someone else in their care thus who were basically like the kids.
A barrier to committing suicide is dependents. People who want to commit suicide will feel like they have to kill dependents first so they can be freed of responsibility and thus no longer be needed. In small number of cases that has included feeble adults that they had to care for. Nevill and June were not dependents.
The studies you referenced also found that a majority of the women with mental illness were off their meds or not being treated period when they acted.
One has to ignore reality and strain severely to try fitting the claims of this case into any of the paradigms. There is a first time for everything but this is not it. The reason why this fails to fit any paradigm is quite clear, Jeremy killed everyone and tried unsuccessfully to frame Sheila.
As far as I'm aware SC was not employed at the time of the tragedy. In fact this seemed to be one of the banes of her life. Even prior to her illness and becoming a mum she seemed to struggle with permanent full-time employment albeit she seemed willing as opposed to lazy.
-
Sorry to keep harping on, but I doubt if anyone will convince me that the bible stain is anything other than a female's bloodied palm print, even the "expert" who examined the book for normal fingerprints but apparently overlooked this stain. It's just too complex to have come from a pool on the carpet - the Head Line is unmistakable as a thin white line running right across the stain, as is the Life Line which begins jointly with the former on the left, then curves down in an arc; the darker stains made by the ball of the thumb and the left-side of the palm indicate where greater pressure has been applied to the page by these prominent fleshy features; the lightest area is where the hollow of the hand made less contact with the page.
Furthermore, the stain is abruptly cut off at the top of the page, which means that if it was from the carpet there should be a continuation of the other part of this stain on the carpet just above the top edge of the bible between the arrows indicated... but there isn't any! And only a small section of page 657's width (indicated at 1) would have been in contact with the carpet at the book's top edge, much less than the actual width of the stain on the page.
The bible also looks like it was held between just a thumb and finger at the top corner where the pages are bent, as if someone was scared of getting their fingerprints on it while they placed the book face down near the existing carpet stain by Sheila's arm to make it appear that the page stain originated from there. This corner has obviously been flattened back to its original shape in the non-crime scene photo of the opened book.
-
Getting back to the thread, it suddenly occurred to me that investigators didn't raise blood staining in the bible with JB during his interviews? They didn't raise the blood in the silencer either? &%+((£
Investigators did discuss and show JB the bible but nothing about blood staining &%+((£
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1310
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1312
-
Getting back to the thread, it suddenly occurred to me that investigators didn't raise blood staining in the bible with JB during his interviews? They didn't raise the blood in the silencer either? &%+((£
Investigators did discuss and show JB the bible but nothing about blood staining &%+((£
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1310 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1310)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1312 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1312)
He made a very obvious Freudian slip there about threatening Crispy with the bible, followed by quickly pulling back with a "No Comment". At what other time would he have done that, with June's bible of all things, if it was not during the murders when the dog happened to be getting in the way of his task?
-
He made a very obvious Freudian slip there about threatening Crispy with the bible, followed by quickly pulling back with a "No Comment". At what other time would he have done that, with June's bible of all things, if it was not during the murders when the dog happened to be getting in the way of his task?
Investigators showed JB the bible DRH/44. Why not open it up and discuss the blood staining?
To my mind there's something odd about the bible/staining:
- Investigators show it to JB but don't discuss the blood staining
- The blood isn't analysed at lab or if it is no one knows about it
- No mention of the blood staining at trial
Then 16/17 years later the prosecution want to use at appeal &%+((£
-
Did ANY of these mothers kill their parents too as a job lot?
Such events are rare. This is from a study in 2012 called The Female Family Annihilator
With the majority of female homicide perpetrators choosing their victims within the domestic context, it is interesting to note the lack of gender specific theories of family multiple murderers. Despite the common myth that multiple murderers kill strangers, Duwe (2007) noted that multiple murderers, (both male and female) are much more likely to kill someone they know, most commonly family members. Messing and Heeren (2004) found the majority of female multiple murderers were most likely to dispatch their biological children. Messing and Heeren also found that many women killed their children as a result of a loss of domestic status (i.e., no longer the primary caregiver). Instead of trying to recreate their lives creating new roles for themselves women chose to escape their distress through violence against their children. Furthermore, it was found that these multiple child murders seemed to be carefully calculated and very rarely committed in the spur of the moment (Messing & Heeren, 2004). Thus, when considered in a domestic context, women mass murder their biological children more frequently than any other member of their family. They also do so in a way that suggests forethought and preparation. For instance Messing and Heeren (2004) found that the female multiple murderers in their study were highly efficient, calculated and controlled killers, characteristics suggested by the lack of personal injuries and the infrequency of stranger victims killed. In addition, many researchers have suggested that some women kill their families as a method of exercising what they perceive to be care and protection (Alder & Polk, 2001; Daly & Wilson, 1988;
Patricia Bolin was 40 years old, an American citizen and resident of Arlington, Ohio when she annihilated her family. She was married to Ronald Bolin, a successful businessman, and founder of his own mechanical-design company. The couple lived together with their three children in the family home, which was located in a wealthy Columbus suburb (Ohio mother, 1976). Friends of the family described the Bolin‘s life as ―ideal‖ (Ohio mother, 1976). Patricia‘s occupation was unlisted in source material, however it appeared that Mr. Bolin was the breadwinner for the family and the couple was financially settled. On December 8th 1976 Patricia Bolin shot and killed her husband Ron (age 43), daughter Tamela (age 12) , and son Todd (age 9) . She attempted to kill daughter Alicia (age 15), but her gun misfired (Mom kills, 1976). According to news reports, police who arrived at the scene said, ―the place looked like a slaughter house‖ (Mom kills, 1976). The triggering events remains unknown to police
After killing their victims, five of the six women attempted suicide—two were successful, one shot herself in the head and the other threw herself off a bridge. With respect to the three women who were unsuccessful: one shot herself in the stomach, one in the head and, the other tried to strangle herself with a cord. None of the women who successfully committed suicide left a suicide note, although one unsuccessful woman did.
-
One has to ignore reality and strain severely to try fitting the claims of this case into any of the paradigms. There is a first time for everything but this is not it. The reason why this fails to fit any paradigm is quite clear, Jeremy killed everyone and tried unsuccessfully to frame Sheila.
The evidence to suggest this does not stand up to scrutiny
-
The evidence to suggest this does not stand up to scrutiny
I don't know what you're seeing, David, but it's not what I'm seeing. And I believed that Bamber was innocent for 25 years. Thanks to Mike Tesko, I realised how wrong I'd been.
-
He made a very obvious Freudian slip there about threatening Crispy with the bible, followed by quickly pulling back with a "No Comment". At what other time would he have done that, with June's bible of all things, if it was not during the murders when the dog happened to be getting in the way of his task?
Absolutely, Myster, a massive Freudian slip, I've always thought that! Maybe Bamber batted at Crispy with the bible when he'd shot Sheila and was arranging her body, and Crispy was barking at him from under the bed. It might also explain his crack about "if only dogs could talk."
Poor Crispy, witnessing such horror then, although the last link to Bamber's "beloved Mum", put to sleep in case Bamber's stereo wires got chewed. Yet another tick in the "Bamber is a callous, murdering arsehole" box.
-
Absolutely, Myster, a massive Freudian slip, I've always thought that! Maybe Bamber batted at Crispy with the bible when he'd shot Sheila and was arranging her body, and Crispy was barking at him from under the bed. It might also explain his crack about "if only dogs could talk."
Poor Crispy, witnessing such horror then, although the last link to Bamber's "beloved Mum", put to sleep in case Bamber's stereo wires got chewed. Yet another tick in the "Bamber is a callous, murdering arsehole" box.
Just to add....Bamber having Crispy destroyed links to the psychometry thing - Bamber insisted that June's rings were cremated with her (although they wouldn't have burnt) in case of pyschometry, which Bamber believed in. Fortunately, Basil Cock kept them safe.
Just ticked another box!
-
I don't know what you're seeing, David, but it's not what I'm seeing. And I believed that Bamber was innocent for 25 years. Thanks to Mike Tesko, I realised how wrong I'd been.
You changed your mind because of Mikes crazy theories? I don't blame you, I just ignore him.
I was of the belief Bamber was guilty when I first took interest in the case.
-
I'm probably going over past mentions of this posted on here....sorry....but I'm a newbie here and still working it out to my own satisfaction.
1) If supposedly NB rang JB on the night of the murders from the downstairs phone ( taken from bedroom) Then why didn't NB say anything about being shot at? Yes - obviously JB is not supposed to know his father has been shot...BUT...it stands to reason that if anyone makes a phone call to tell of someone going mad with a gun And having been first shot in bed you would tell the person you're ringing this whilst on kitchen phone, in fact it's more than likely it would be your first words...I've been shot! BUT...of course JB would then be putting himself in the frame with this knowledge if Police found no call was made. That's another reason JB bought the logs... made of the calls... up at his appeals...he'd gone to a lot of trouble covering his back only for the Police to state that only one call was made 'HIS'!
2) Say SC did shoot all her family...why did she wait until one family member has left WHF. It's well known that SC and JB didn't see eye to eye. If she was capable of shooting her father whom she adored, she would have had no concerns about doing the same to JB. Remembering SC was supposed to have gone berserk so not thinking rationally. NO! JB stood to gain everything by killing all of the family in the early hours of the morning when all of them were asleep in bed.
-
I'm probably going over past mentions of this posted on here....sorry....but I'm a newbie here and still working it out to my own satisfaction.
1) If supposedly NB rang JB on the night of the murders from the downstairs phone ( taken from bedroom) Then why didn't NB say anything about being shot at? Yes - obviously JB is not supposed to know his father has been shot...BUT...it stands to reason that if anyone makes a phone call to tell of someone going mad with a gun And having been first shot in bed you would tell the person you're ringing this whilst on kitchen phone, in fact it's more than likely it would be your first words...I've been shot! BUT...of course JB would then be putting himself in the frame with this knowledge if Police found no call was made. That's another reason JB bought the logs... made of the calls... up at his appeals...he'd gone to a lot of trouble covering his back only for the Police to state that only one call was made 'HIS'!
2) Say SC did shoot all her family...why did she wait until one family member has left WHF. It's well known that SC and JB didn't see eye to eye. If she was capable of shooting her father whom she adored, she would have had no concerns about doing the same to JB. Remembering SC was supposed to have gone berserk so not thinking rationally. NO! JB stood to gain everything by killing all of the family in the early hours of the morning when all of them were asleep in bed.
Just another flawed detail in Jeremy's story I agree. Neville was shot in the bedroom and badly wounded, had he made it to the kitchen and been able to phone anyone i dare say he would have mentioned being wounded. Fact is, his jaw was so badly damaged by that first hail of bullets that he couldn't speak to anyone.
-
Absolutely, Myster, a massive Freudian slip, I've always thought that! Maybe Bamber batted at Crispy with the bible when he'd shot Sheila and was arranging her body, and Crispy was barking at him from under the bed. It might also explain his crack about "if only dogs could talk."
Poor Crispy, witnessing such horror then, although the last link to Bamber's "beloved Mum", put to sleep in case Bamber's stereo wires got chewed. Yet another tick in the "Bamber is a callous, murdering arsehole" box.
Poor little mite, he lost his family too, he was the sixth victim.
-
I'm probably going over past mentions of this posted on here....sorry....but I'm a newbie here and still working it out to my own satisfaction.
1) If supposedly NB rang JB on the night of the murders from the downstairs phone ( taken from bedroom) Then why didn't NB say anything about being shot at? Yes - obviously JB is not supposed to know his father has been shot...BUT...it stands to reason that if anyone makes a phone call to tell of someone going mad with a gun And having been first shot in bed you would tell the person you're ringing this whilst on kitchen phone, in fact it's more than likely it would be your first words...I've been shot! BUT...of course JB would then be putting himself in the frame with this knowledge if Police found no call was made. That's another reason JB bought the logs... made of the calls... up at his appeals...he'd gone to a lot of trouble covering his back only for the Police to state that only one call was made 'HIS'!
If Shelia committed the massacre, Neville rang Jeremy before he was shot.
2) Say SC did shoot all her family...why did she wait until one family member has left WHF. It's well known that SC and JB didn't see eye to eye. If she was capable of shooting her father whom she adored, she would have had no concerns about doing the same to JB. Remembering SC was supposed to have gone berserk so not thinking rationally. NO! JB stood to gain everything by killing all of the family in the early hours of the morning when all of them were asleep in bed.
"why did she wait until one family member has left WHF?" she didn't wait to commit the crime. she would have been triggered by the threat of having her children taken into foster care.
-
If Shelia committed the massacre, Neville rang Jeremy before he was shot.
"why did she wait until one family member has left WHF?" she didn't wait to commit the crime. she would have been triggered by the threat of having her children taken into foster care.
But Sheila didn't and we only have Jeremy's word in respect to the foster care suggestion. Colin was the primary carer so the whole argument is ridiculous.
-
Just to add....Bamber having Crispy destroyed links to the psychometry thing - Bamber insisted that June's rings were cremated with her (although they wouldn't have burnt) in case of pyschometry, which Bamber believed in. Fortunately, Basil Cock kept them safe.
Just ticked another box!
Did he really? I have wondered about that and it also explains why he had a melt down when Mike was intersted in contacting a psychic.
-
The evidence to suggest this does not stand up to scrutiny
Of course it does, the evidence to suggest he didn't kill everyone doesn't stand up to scrutiny - you are using confirmation bias!
-
I'm probably going over past mentions of this posted on here....sorry....but I'm a newbie here and still working it out to my own satisfaction.
1) If supposedly NB rang JB on the night of the murders from the downstairs phone ( taken from bedroom) Then why didn't NB say anything about being shot at? Yes - obviously JB is not supposed to know his father has been shot...BUT...it stands to reason that if anyone makes a phone call to tell of someone going mad with a gun And having been first shot in bed you would tell the person you're ringing this whilst on kitchen phone, in fact it's more than likely it would be your first words...I've been shot! BUT...of course JB would then be putting himself in the frame with this knowledge if Police found no call was made. That's another reason JB bought the logs... made of the calls... up at his appeals...he'd gone to a lot of trouble covering his back only for the Police to state that only one call was made 'HIS'!
2) Say SC did shoot all her family...why did she wait until one family member has left WHF. It's well known that SC and JB didn't see eye to eye. If she was capable of shooting her father whom she adored, she would have had no concerns about doing the same to JB. Remembering SC was supposed to have gone berserk so not thinking rationally. NO! JB stood to gain everything by killing all of the family in the early hours of the morning when all of them were asleep in bed.
Jeremy hoped that police would believe that Nevill was shot after making the phonecall. The claim that the phone was disconnected was supposed to intimate that Sheila attacked him disconnecting the call and killing him in the kitchen. He hoped police would not figure out that he had been shot in the bedroom. They pieced that together later after the evidence was fully processed.
Later on Jeremy tried putting another thought in the head of police. He suggested Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there so she could kill him too. Perhaps he hoped they would come to such suspicion on their own based on the scene but they didn't and even his suggestion didn't get the to seriously consider such.
If she had actually opened fire already Nevill would have called 999 requesting an ambulance in addition to police. The notion he would call Jeremy is such situation is not credible but even if he would call Jeremy he would note who had been shot and to summon an ambulance not simply come over himself. Thus he had no choice but to try to pretend Nevill called him before any shots had been fired.
-
The evidence to suggest this does not stand up to scrutiny
Your claim is an empty one. Neither you, nor Jeremy's lawyers nor any other Jeremy supporter for that matter has come up with anything to undermine the evidence proving Jeremy committed the murders and tried to frame Sheila.
WHat fails to stand up to scrutiny are the suggestions of those who insist he is innocent.
-
Jeremy hoped that police would believe that Nevill was shot after making the phonecall. The claim that the phone was disconnected was supposed to intimate that Sheila attacked him disconnecting the call and killing him in the kitchen. He hoped police would not figure out that he had been shot in the bedroom. They pieced that together later after the evidence was fully processed.
Later on Jeremy tried putting another thought in the head of police. He suggested Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there so she could kill him too. Perhaps he hoped they would come to such suspicion on their own based on the scene but they didn't and even his suggestion didn't get the to seriously consider such.
If she had actually opened fire already Nevill would have called 999 requesting an ambulance in addition to police. The notion he would call Jeremy is such situation is not credible but even if he would call Jeremy he would note who had been shot and to summon an ambulance not simply come over himself. Thus he had no choice but to try to pretend Nevill called him before any shots had been fired.
Have you got a source that Bamber suggested to the police that Sheila had forced Neville to call him ?
He didn't say this while outside of WHF with the police. After the bodies were found I don't recall him insinuating Sheila much. He felt he had done enough. After his arrest he was just evasive and insinuated Crispy as well as briefly saying Neville may have said 'she' rather than 'Sheila'.
-
But Sheila didn't
Prove it.
and we only have Jeremy's word in respect to the foster care suggestion.
No we don't. I quote from the statement by Collins mother taken on 29/9/85
I remember just after Sheila's second illness, I spoke to June BAMBER on the phone. She conveyed to me then of her concern that through Sheila's illness, the boys might be put into foster homes.
Colin was the primary carer so the whole argument is ridiculous.
On the contrary, they had joined custody of the twins. and even thou Colin claims he did most the effort it does not mean Sheila would have seen it that way.
Of course it does, the evidence to suggest he didn't kill everyone doesn't stand up to scrutiny
If that was the case your arguments would not fall apart under scrutiny.
-
Have you got a source that Bamber suggested to the police that Sheila had forced Neville to call him ?
He didn't say this while outside of WHF with the police. After the bodies were found I don't recall him insinuating Sheila much. He felt he had done enough. After his arrest he was just evasive and insinuated Crispy as well as briefly saying Neville may have said 'she' rather than 'Sheila'.
Among the reasons Jeremy gave for not rushing over was that he feared the call was a trick to get him there so he could also be harmed. Clearly he hoped police would think such possibility on their own and it is even possible that he injured Nevill's back to make it appear Sheila was doing such in an effort to get him to call but police failed to consider such realistic even after he tossed it out there but it simply went in one ear and out the other. On the other hand the family didn't forget about it and considered it ridiculous and another reason to not trust Jeremy. Jeremy saying he was scared to go over because he thought it was a trap was a major red flag to the family and Ann Eaton wrote as much in a statement.
-
If Shelia committed the massacre, Neville rang Jeremy before he was shot.
]"why did she wait until one family member has left WHF?"[/i]
she didn't wait to commit the crime. she would have been triggered by the threat of having her children taken into foster care.
This contradicts your reply to my question 'why did she wait until one family member has left WHF....either SC didn't wait in which case Neville was shot before phone call to JB, at around 3.26 am.... OR.... NB wasn't shot until after 3.26 am which means if it was Sheila...she waited an awful long time.
-
I don’t know where else to put this post.
SC’s birthday was 18th July. On this day there was a directors meeting at Osea Road. It is at this meeting NB and JB have a blazing row. Ann Easton…in her statement…can’t remember what it was about…but bearing in mind the worry the’d had recently regarding SC and children…from D. Caffell’s statement that JB had told her this on the phone back in JUNE. The fact it was SC’s birthday this day, plus also we know from JB’s letter to CAL 2013 that SC had been offered a job at Osea Road… this confirmed by SC’s friend Tora who remembers SC mentioning it…It stands to reason the result of the blazing row that day could have been regarding or something to do with SC’s forthcoming job at Osea….given as part birthday gift?… JB was having his nose put out of joint as he also stood to loose his house in Goldhanger to SC’s if his parents had their way. Would SC now also have a share in Osea Road as well as JB and AE?
Two clear references from NB about a shooting incident are recorded…
1) late June BW states that NB says to her “Wer’e all going to die at some stage, aren’t we. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened to me while I’m out shooting”
2) Robert and Pamela Boutflour returned to WHF after 18th July Osea Meeting, after blazing row with JB. Robert states that when going to look at the new Den in WHF. NB picks up a rifle and ammunition from the settle and said words to the effect “ don’t want to make it easy for the next gun to jump into my shoes” RB statement 1991
-
I don’t know where else to put this post.
SC’s birthday was 18th July. On this day there was a directors meeting at Osea Road. It is at this meeting NB and JB have a blazing row. Ann Easton…in her statement…can’t remember what it was about…but bearing in mind the worry the’d had recently regarding SC and children…from D. Caffell’s statement that JB had told her this on the phone back in JUNE. The fact it was SC’s birthday this day, plus also we know from JB’s letter to CAL 2013 that SC had been offered a job at Osea Road… this confirmed by SC’s friend Tora who remembers SC mentioning it…It stands to reason the result of the blazing row that day could have been regarding or something to do with SC’s forthcoming job at Osea….given as part birthday gift?… JB was having his nose put out of joint as he also stood to loose his house in Goldhanger to SC’s if his parents had their way. Would SC now also have a share in Osea Road as well as JB and AE?
Two clear references from NB about a shooting incident are recorded…
1) late June BW states that NB says to her “Wer’e all going to die at some stage, aren’t we. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened to me while I’m out shooting”
2) Robert and Pamela Boutflour returned to WHF after 18th July Osea Meeting, after blazing row with JB. Robert states that when going to look at the new Den in WHF. NB picks up a rifle and ammunition from the settle and said words to the effect “ don’t want to make it easy for the next gun to jump into my shoes” RB statement 1991
The blazing row on the 18th July was just before the massacre.
Sheila working at the caravan site supports Bamber's own WS that Sheila was maybe going to move into his cottage. Bamber would have been infuriated as he spent around £3,000 and a lot of time improving the cottage.
Sheila may have been given a good position at the caravan site. And more shares. Neville deciding she should start to take on more responsibilty. This again would infuriate Bamber.
-
A question for Caroline, or anyone else who might know...
Have you any idea what appear to be letters and numbers written over the carpet bloodstain spell out, and who wrote them?
I lightened the image to try and make them readable, although not successfully. The top line looks like a number - 18398 or 1898 or 1998?
-
A question for Caroline, or anyone else who might know...
Have you any idea what appear to be letters and numbers written over the carpet bloodstain spell out, and who wrote them?
I lightened the image to try and make them readable, although not successfully. The top line looks like a number - 18398 or 1898 or 1998?
Hi Myster, I can't see any letters or numbers?
-
Two clear references from NB about a shooting incident are recorded…
1) late June BW states that NB says to her “Wer’e all going to die at some stage, aren’t we. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened to me while I’m out shooting”
2) Robert and Pamela Boutflour returned to WHF after 18th July Osea Meeting, after blazing row with JB. Robert states that when going to look at the new Den in WHF. NB picks up a rifle and ammunition from the settle and said words to the effect “ don’t want to make it easy for the next gun to jump into my shoes” RB statement 1991
Once could be a coincidence but twice? No way.
-
Hi Myster, I can't see any letters or numbers?
Don't you say that I'm seeing things as well! @)(++(*
Written directly in the stain, more easily seen in the lightened photo. What looks like 18398 above, and letters spelling something out below - EX*** EMBES?
-
Don't you say that I'm seeing things as well! @)(++(*
Written directly in the stain, more easily seen in the lightened photo. What looks like 18398 above, and letters spelling something out below - EX*** EMBES?
Myster, much as I normally appreciate your posts, I'm afraid I can't get a grip on this one!!!!!!!!!
-
Don't you say that I'm seeing things as well! @)(++(*
Written directly in the stain, more easily seen in the lightened photo. What looks like 18398 above, and letters spelling something out below - EX*** EMBES?
Just noticed that the whole of the carpet above the bible is covered with very, very faint lined text, so it's probably an impression caused by someone writing on a sheet of paper which has carried through to the photo underneath.
-
Don't you say that I'm seeing things as well! @)(++(*
Written directly in the stain, more easily seen in the lightened photo. What looks like 18398 above, and letters spelling something out below - EX*** EMBES?
&%+((£ 8)><( my eyes hurt!
-
Myster, much as I normally appreciate your posts, I'm afraid I can't get a grip on this one!!!!!!!!!
&%+((£ 8)><( my eyes hurt!
Just solved it.... above! ?{)(** 8((()*/
-
Just noticed that the whole of the carpet above the bible is covered with very, very faint lined text, so it's probably an impression caused by someone writing on a sheet of paper which has carried through to the photo underneath.
It's Jeremy's confession in hieroglyphics 8(0(*
-
Don't you say that I'm seeing things as well! @)(++(*
Written directly in the stain, more easily seen in the lightened photo. What looks like 18398 above, and letters spelling something out below - EX*** EMBES?
I just see blood in random pattern. Are you seeing a can of alphabet soup? If so stop drinking and take another look tomorrow...
-
I just see blood in random pattern. Are you seeing a can of alphabet soup? If so stop drinking and take another look tomorrow...
A lot of text is definitely there... but maybe not as easily seen on small laptop/tablet screens as on my own large widescreen monitor.
As I mentioned above, it's most likely an impression from a handwritten sheet which someone has placed on top of the photograph, and pressed down hard while they were writing. In fact... it all appears to be in upper case, so it could very well be in Jeremy Bamber's hand.
-
Poor little mite, he lost his family too, he was the sixth victim.
Crispy was offered to the wider family but no one wanted him so sadly he was put down 8(8-)). Bruce was found a home outside the family.
Of course the wider family wanted max benefit from the Bamber estate hence the Boutflours, Eatons and Pargeters ended up in court!
-
Crispy was offered to the wider family but no one wanted him so sadly he was put down 8(8-)). Bruce was found a home outside the family.
Of course the wider family wanted max benefit from the Bamber estate hence the Boutflours, Eatons and Pargeters ended up in court!
We don't want the dogs. We just want the dosh. Show us the money:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mBS0OWGUidc
-
Once could be a coincidence but twice? No way.
We don't have RB's WS here, but he states when RB and PB visited June in a psychiatric hospital in 1982 June feared her life was coming to an end. June also thought they were being listened to on the ward, so to appease June RB took her to his car where I believe June drafted various letters etc in the event of her death.
IMO this was a family under a lot of strain and very dysfunctional and I don't believe it had anything to do with JB.
-
I agree that the family had lots of problems, but that doesn’t exclude JB. Many neighbours friends and teachers spoke of his weird ways and attitude.
Robert B told detectives in his WS 10th September 1985 that he’d had a word with JB about tackling any intruders at Osea Road. (this meeting was about security and held on 20th June 1985 ) RB warning JB about committing a crime that would prey on his conscience: Jeremy then made an extraordinary statement “ Oh no Uncle Bobby, that wouldn’t worry me, I could easily kill my parents” ! RB supposedly then stormed off.
IMO...If this comment was ever proved to be false JB was still far from innocent...stealing, drugs, aggression, burglary.....what a son to be proud off!
June's Letter written from the hospital.
MY DARLINGS – NEVILL, SHEILA & JEM
SHOULD ANYTHING HAPPEN TO ME AND I HAVE TO LEAVE YOU, I WRITE THIS TO TELL YOU OF MY LOVE FOR YOU AND TO THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. ALL I ASK IS THAT GOD WILL LOVE AND PROTECT YOU THROUGH THE YEARS AHEAD, AND THAT SOME DAY, GOD WILLING, WE MAY MEET AGAIN.
MY LOVE ALWAYS MY DARLINGS
MUMS.
-
I agree that the family had lots of problems, but that doesn’t exclude JB. Many neighbours friends and teachers spoke of his weird ways and attitude.
Robert B told detectives in his WS 10th September 1985 that he’d had a word with JB about tackling any intruders at Osea Road. (this meeting was about security and held on 20th June 1985 ) RB warning JB about committing a crime that would prey on his conscience: Jeremy then made an extraordinary statement “ Oh no Uncle Bobby, that wouldn’t worry me, I could easily kill my parents” ! RB supposedly then stormed off.
[b[IMO...If this comment was ever proved to be false JB was still far from innocent...stealing, drugs, aggression, burglary.....what a son to be proud off![/b]
And that was only in England, add to that the New Zealand fiasco.
-
A lot of text is definitely there... but maybe not as easily seen on small laptop/tablet screens as on my own large widescreen monitor.
As I mentioned above, it's most likely an impression from a handwritten sheet which someone has placed on top of the photograph, and pressed down hard while they were writing. In fact... it all appears to be in upper case, so it could very well be in Jeremy Bamber's hand.
I was going to suggest it might be down to screen quality - but you already have :)
-
I agree that the family had lots of problems, but that doesn’t exclude JB. Many neighbours friends and teachers spoke of his weird ways and attitude.
Robert B told detectives in his WS 10th September 1985 that he’d had a word with JB about tackling any intruders at Osea Road. (this meeting was about security and held on 20th June 1985 ) RB warning JB about committing a crime that would prey on his conscience: Jeremy then made an extraordinary statement “ Oh no Uncle Bobby, that wouldn’t worry me, I could easily kill my parents” ! RB supposedly then stormed off.
IMO...If this comment was ever proved to be false JB was still far from innocent...stealing, drugs, aggression, burglary.....what a son to be proud off!
June's Letter written from the hospital.
MY DARLINGS – NEVILL, SHEILA & JEM
SHOULD ANYTHING HAPPEN TO ME AND I HAVE TO LEAVE YOU, I WRITE THIS TO TELL YOU OF MY LOVE FOR YOU AND TO THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. ALL I ASK IS THAT GOD WILL LOVE AND PROTECT YOU THROUGH THE YEARS AHEAD, AND THAT SOME DAY, GOD WILLING, WE MAY MEET AGAIN.
MY LOVE ALWAYS MY DARLINGS
MUMS.
Who's to say what's "weird ways" and "attitude"? Even if by most peoples' standards someone has "weird ways" and "attitude" does this make someone capable of mass murder? Remember what was said about Christopher Jefferies?
Writing in London's Evening Standard on 5 January 2011, media commentator Roy Greenslade expressed concern over a number of negative articles that had appeared in newspapers concerning Yeates' landlord, Jefferies, following his arrest, describing the coverage as "character assassination on a large scale".[131] He cited several examples of headlines and stories that had been published, including a headline in The Sun describing Jefferies – a former schoolmaster at Clifton College – as weird, posh, lewd and creepy; a story from the Daily Express quoting unnamed former pupils referring to him as "... a sort of Nutty Professor" who made them feel "creeped out" by his "strange" behaviour; and an article from the Daily Telegraph, which reported Jefferies "has been described by pupils at Clifton College ... as a fan of dark and violent avant-garde films".[131] Jefferies launched legal action against six newspapers on 21 April – The Sun, the Daily Mirror, the Daily Star, the Daily Express, the Daily Mail and the Daily Record – seeking damages for libel.[125]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joanna_Yeates
You mention JB displaying aggression I wasn't aware of this? Like most of us he wasn't perfect. All the things you accuse JB of, apart from aggression, JM had also participated in? None of the main protagonists come out well including NB and June in trying to dictate to their adult children about matters that were none of their business.
I was aware of the letter. This was the one held by the family accountant, Basil Cock, and read out at trial. I thought June also made other requests to RB too?
Yes the family did have a lot of problems and imo they centered around SC, her mental illness, welfare of the twins and June's mental illness.
-
You mention JB displaying aggression I wasn't aware of this? Like most of us he wasn't perfect. All the things you accuse JB of, apart from aggression, JM had also participated in? None of the main protagonists come out well including NB and June in trying to dictate to their adult children about matters that were none of their business.
There is a difference between participation and instigation.
-
There is a difference between participation and instigation.
Not in the eyes of the law both are criminal offences.
JB wasn't part of the cheque book fraud.
-
Not in the eyes of the law both are criminal offences.
JB wasn't part of the cheque book fraud.
Well actually he was because he accepted stolen goods. I think we both know the difference morally between instigation and participation.
-
Who's to say what's "weird ways" and "attitude"? Even if by most peoples' standards someone has "weird ways" and "attitude" does this make someone capable of mass murder? Remember what was said about Christopher Jefferies?
Writing in London's Evening Standard on 5 January 2011, media commentator Roy Greenslade expressed concern over a number of negative articles that had appeared in newspapers concerning Yeates' landlord, Jefferies, following his arrest, describing the coverage as "character assassination on a large scale".[131] He cited several examples of headlines and stories that had been published, including a headline in The Sun describing Jefferies – a former schoolmaster at Clifton College – as weird, posh, lewd and creepy; a story from the Daily Express quoting unnamed former pupils referring to him as "... a sort of Nutty Professor" who made them feel "creeped out" by his "strange" behaviour; and an article from the Daily Telegraph, which reported Jefferies "has been described by pupils at Clifton College ... as a fan of dark and violent avant-garde films".[131] Jefferies launched legal action against six newspapers on 21 April – The Sun, the Daily Mirror, the Daily Star, the Daily Express, the Daily Mail and the Daily Record – seeking damages for libel.[125]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joanna_Yeates
You mention JB displaying aggression I wasn't aware of this? Like most of us he wasn't perfect. All the things you accuse JB of, apart from aggression, JM had also participated in? None of the main protagonists come out well including NB and June in trying to dictate to their adult children about matters that were none of their business.
I was aware of the letter. This was the one held by the family accountant, Basil Cock, and read out at trial. I thought June also made other requests to RB too?
Yes the family did have a lot of problems and imo they centered around SC, her mental illness, welfare of the twins and June's mental illness.
Regarding the aggression shown by JB.... JM states he was aggressive to her grabbing hold of her arm and pulling it up her back during an argument. You give Christopher Jefferies as an innocent example of a weird person as told by students... I can't see him grabbing someone's arm up their back he wasn't aggressive just strange. In my post I gave a statement from RB to police that can also be termed as showing aggression.
Regarding June and Neville Bamber trying to help their children....you say it was nothing to do with them....they were still only in their 20's...it wasn't interference it was trying to make them stand on their own two feet i.e JB to work on the farm and SC to work at Osea. Where would JB and SC have been without being given Bourtree Cottage, a car, and a flat in London for SC....I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
-
Regarding the aggression shown by JB.... JM states he was aggressive to her grabbing hold of her arm and pulling it up her back during an argument. You give Christopher Jefferies as an innocent example of a weird person as told by students... I can't see him grabbing someone's arm up their back he wasn't aggressive just strange. In my post I gave a statement from RB to police that can also be termed as showing aggression.
Regarding June and Neville Bamber trying to help their children....you say it was nothing to do with them....they were still only in their 20's...it wasn't interference it was trying to make them stand on their own two feet i.e JB to work on the farm and SC to work at Osea. Where would JB and SC have been without being given Bourtree Cottage, a car, and a flat in London for SC....I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
JM said she she slapped JB acrosss the face and he pushed her arm up her back. JB said this was to restrain her. Apart from this there's no evidence of JB being aggressive.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1134
SC was violent towards CC. CC gave SC a black eye.
NB and June were in a position to help out their adult children financially. Happens in millions of middle class homes across the globe. Last week published research showed parents were set to lend their children a total of 5 billion towards home purchase with 50% saying it's a gift:
http://www.bullockandleeswareham.co.uk/news/articles/Parents-set-to-lend-5-billion-to-buy-property-801817870.aspx
I was referring to NB and June's interference in terms of June telling CC she hoped the relationship with SC had ended after SC's termination which it seems June encouraged; telling JM she was a harlot for staying at JB's; and NB telling JB he had to end his relationship with Suzette Ford or face being disinherited. What was wrong with CC, JM and SF? No doubt if SC and JB were dating local landowners the Bambers would have been overjoyed. Most adults in this country, apart from those who subscribe to arranged marriages, expect to choose their partners and not have their parents interfering. I could maybe appreciate it if CC, JM or SF were really unsavoury characters but that's not how they appear.
-
They only tested the carpet near her feet and at the foot of the bed. They did not test the big stain that was near the Bible. They figured that pool of blood had to be hers. Likewise they figured the blood near June had to be hers so did not test that either.
Of the 2 carpet samples they did take to test they only test 5 drops on each not all. So there was a considerable amount of blood on the rugs that went untested. Nor did they test any of the blood that was on the bedding.
That is why time and again I have pointed out to you that there was a lot of untested blood that could have belonged to Nevill, we have no way to know.
There was a trial of blood they followed which went from the foot of the bed to the area near her legs including dripping on the socks. They tested such blood to figure out who was walking around the bed. In theory that could help them figure out who the killer was. They saw no value in testing the blood under the Bible or near June or in the bed which they figured belonged to the victims near such blood.
Because they did test such blood that is how we know that June walked around the bed. Had they not tested the blood we would not have known that.
It is presumed that the blood on the Bible was Sheila's. It was sitting in a pool of blood that they presumed was hers. if it wasn't hers that would not help them figure out who the killer was unless it belonged to none of the victims which would mean it came from the killer and that the killer was someone other than Sheila. They didn't have any expectations the killer bled all over the Bible though. I don't fault them for not thinking such.
They tested the blood on her gown because they suspected she was the killer and were trying to see if they could find blood from other victims.
They tested the rifle to try to see whose blood was on it because such blood would also be on the killer.
If this had been an attack with a knife or the like they would have to have tested every drop of blood everywhere because the killer's blood might be found. That moreso is significant today because DNA testing can better identify who blood belongs to.
They did fingerprint the Bible but found no prints in blood so were not concerned about the blood type though they assumed it was Sheila's.
And Jeremy Bamber requested said carpets were destroyed. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/past-crimes-the-bamber-files-2046383.html
There's no getting away from the facts of this case, no matter how hard supporters try.
There aren't endless possibilities, just people's furtive imaginations - some more apparent than others.
-
And Jeremy Bamber requested said carpets were destroyed. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/past-crimes-the-bamber-files-2046383.html
There's no getting away from the facts of this case, no matter how hard supporters try.
There aren't endless possibilities, just people's furtive imaginations - some more apparent than others.
That's not actually true Stephanie. DS Jones asked JB if he wanted heavily blood stained items destroyed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1056.0;attach=2206
Given the police considered the soc murder/suicide they still did a good job IMO of collecting and documenting everything immediately obvious. Same for police photographer DC Bird.
Had these exhibits not been destroyed against police protocol they would almost certainly either exonerate JB or seal his fate:
165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
Above is from:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
-
That's not actually true Stephanie. DS Jones asked JB if he wanted heavily blood stained items destroyed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1056.0;attach=2206
Given the police considered the soc murder/suicide they still did a good job IMO of collecting and documenting everything immediately obvious. Same for police photographer DC Bird.
Had these exhibits not been destroyed against police protocol they would almost certainly either exonerate JB or seal his fate:
165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
Above is from:
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Can you point me to where I can read, in his own words, about ever regretting saying yes to their destruction? He seems to have a habit of blaming everyone else for his own mistakes. The police on the other hand appear to have been quite the opposite and indeed transparent.
-
Can you point me to where I can read, in his own words, about ever regretting saying yes to their destruction? He seems to have a habit of blaming everyone else for his own mistakes. The police on the other hand appear to have been quite the opposite and indeed transparent.
As far as I can see there was nothing of evidential value destroyed pre trial.
My understanding is that post trial the police have a duty to hold trial exhibits indefinitely. Whether their destruction was a genuine oversight or something more sinister who knows?! If JB is innocent those exhibits could almost certainly exonerate him.
-
We don't want the dogs. We just want the dosh. Show us the money:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mBS0OWGUidc
Have you or the CT managed to locate the vets WS yet?
-
Have you or the CT managed to locate the vets WS yet?
I've never looked for it. What do you believe it would prove or disprove?
-
I've never looked for it. What do you believe it would prove or disprove?
This for a start
Crispy was offered to the wider family but no one wanted him so sadly he was put down 8(8-)). Bruce was found a home outside the family.
-
This for a start
This is what the vet stated;
The Vet’s W/S:
Robert McTaggart Hill, w/s, 14 October 1985; vet with Neill & Scott, Maldon.
Jeremy Bamber called him on 8 August and he went to Bourtree:
‘On my arrival Mr Jeremy Bamber told me that he wished me to put down the Shih Tzu dog that had belonged to Mrs Bamber, his mother. He said that the dog was very attached to his mother, and since her death, he thought that the dog should not go to another home. He also said that the dog had turned a bit nasty since the killings at WHF and it was a bit snappy. I also spoke with Mr Jeremy Bamber about finding a new home for another dog from WHF, this was a black Labrador gun dog. He seemed concerned that the dog should be found another home on a farm but if that didn’t work out that dog should also be put down. Through the vet’s practise another home was found for this dog at Corporation Farm at Maldon and we housed the dog on Friday, 9 August 1985… Mr J Bamber brought the dog to the surgery on that afternoon. On the occasions I saw Jeremy Bamber, he seemed upset when I saw him on 8.8.85 but he seemed to be more composed on 9.8.85 when I saw him in Maldon at the surgery. On the latter occasion he explained that he was on tranquillisers. I knew nothing of Jeremy Bamber or his family prior to 8.8.85.’
-
good point opal,also i think the police asked him about handling that bible found near sheila.he said he may have picked it up to threaten the dog,they then asked when the incident happened,i cant remember the answer jb gave,bottom line is maybe the dog was hindering jb's work that morning and he threw the bible at it,just a thought 8(0(*
This is a good point