UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: puglove on August 04, 2018, 11:57:25 PM
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I know we've been here before. But you can't deny that the gun would have been smothered in Sheila's prints. According to you, she didn't just shoot, she turned the gun around and battered Nevill with it. Every part of that gun would have been covered with Sheila's prints.
This is why Bamber will stay where he is. Because he's a mean son of a bitch. And a raving psychopath.
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I know we've been here before. But you can't deny that the gun would have been smothered in Sheila's prints. According to you, she didn't just shoot, she turned the gun around and battered Nevill with it. Every part of that gun would have been covered with Sheila's prints.
This is why Bamber will stay where he is. Because he's a mean son of a bitch. And a raving psychopath.
Strangely, just last week, my gun expert friend ran through what Sheila would have needed to do, not only to fire the gun but to reload it. As she couldn't have done it with her teeth, the gun, and the thingy that holds the bullets would, of necessity, have been handled and covered in her fingerprints. Then there's the wielding of gun in order to bring it down on Nevill's head. I accept that Jeremy would have worn gloves, but Sheila? I believe they found just one print of hers on the gun.
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I know we've been here before. But you can't deny that the gun would have been smothered in Sheila's prints. According to you, she didn't just shoot, she turned the gun around and battered Nevill with it. Every part of that gun would have been covered with Sheila's prints.
This is why Bamber will stay where he is. Because he's a mean son of a bitch. And a raving psychopath.
Yes we have been here before and I know you ain't stupid and you've got a memory like an elephant, so I'm assuming you're just wanting to toy with my emotions! 8)><(
So, for the benefit of interested observers Myster is in receipt of email exchange between myself and a physicist/forensic scientist who is arguably the world's leading expert on fingerprints. He confirmed latent fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to the coating known as 'bluing'.
DI Cook told CAL had SC have been responsible he would have expected to have found more of SC's fingerprints on the rifle. DI Cook was supposedly the fingerprint expert!
Why do commentators always bring up the lack of fingerprints on rifle but overlook the silencer? And more importantly overlook the fact the casings were destroyed in 1996 against all protocols depriving JB of the possibility of using a new technology capable of lifting latent fingerprints from small cylindrical objects.
The buck must stop with the Home Office over poor training and supervision.
DI Cook - oblivious to the above (rifle).
DC Bird - Inexperienced soc photographer. Keep duff copies for audit.
DC Hammersly - Inexperienced swabbing hands - WHF first such occasion.
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Yes we have been here before and I know you ain't stupid and you've got a memory like an elephant, so I'm assuming you're just wanting to toy with my emotions! 8)><(
So, for the benefit of interested observers Myster is in receipt of email exchange between myself and a physicist/forensic scientist who is arguably the world's leading expert on fingerprints. He confirmed latent fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to the coating known as 'bluing'.
DI Cook told CAL had SC have been responsible he would have expected to have found more of SC's fingerprints on the rifle. DI Cook was supposedly the fingerprint expert!
Why do commentators always bring up the lack of fingerprints on rifle but overlook the silencer? And more importantly overlook the fact the casings were destroyed in 1996 against all protocols depriving JB of the possibility of using a new technology capable of lifting latent fingerprints from small cylindrical objects.
The buck must stop with the Home Office over poor training and supervision.
DI Cook - oblivious to the above (rifle).
DC Bird - Inexperienced soc photographer. Keep duff copies for audit.
DC Hammersly - Inexperienced swabbing hands - WHF first such occasion.
Does "notoriously difficult" mean totally impossible? Someone who was gun savvy could probably have gone through all the motions with the minimum of handling, but someone who'd never done it before? Could they have demonstrated such competence? There's a whole lot of gun for them only to have found one/a partial print of Sheila's on it.
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And, Holl. I know we've been here before. But you can't deny that the gun would have been smothered in Sheila's prints. According to you, she didn't just shoot, she turned the gun around and battered Nevill with it. Every part of that gun would have been covered with Sheila's prints.
This is why Bamber will stay where he is. Because he's a mean son of a bitch. And a raving psychopath.
I agree wholeheartedly Puggy, the rifle was clearly handled by someone wearing gloves.
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Does "notoriously difficult" mean totally impossible? Someone who was gun savvy could probably have gone through all the motions with the minimum of handling, but someone who'd never done it before? Could they have demonstrated such competence? There's a whole lot of gun for them only to have found one/a partial print of Sheila's on it.
I think you've answered your own question April. As you've rightly pointed out one of SC's fingerprints was obtained so no it's not "impossible" that's why I said "notoriously difficult". Perhaps getting a bit carried away with "notoriously".!
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I agree wholeheartedly Puggy, the rifle was clearly handled by someone wearing gloves.
I diagree. The fact a fingerprint from SC and JB was found is consistent with both of them handling the rifle at some point in time. The whole glove thing has no substance to it. DS Jones asked JB during his police interviews if he wore gloves when handling the rifle. It shows EP had a dire lack of training in this regard. I've highlighted my email contact with a world expert on fingerprints which is reiterated in the following:
http://www.scafo.org/library/130303.html
"Factors Affecting the Recovery of Latent Prints on Firearms".
"Jurors have been inundated with fingerprint information from television, movies and newspapers and feel that latent print evidence is a reliable means of establishing positive personal identity [5]. However, jurors are generally under the impression that every item that is touched by fingers or palms will be left with an identifiable latent print impression [6]. If an offender is arrested for possession of a firearms, jurors therefore expect his/her prints to be on it. In fact, most of the time, fingerprint specialists find no identifiable latent prints on firearms. Accordingly, attorneys often call on the fingerprint specialist to explain to the jury the many reasons for the absence of identifiable latent prints. The following reasons make latent print recovery from firearms difficult and when they are recovered, the time of deposition can seldom be determined. The purpose of this paper is to provide information to both technical and non--technical users of fingerprint identification services about what factors affect the recovery of latent prints on firearms".
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Yes we have been here before and I know you ain't stupid and you've got a memory like an elephant, so I'm assuming you're just wanting to toy with my emotions! 8)><(
So, for the benefit of interested observers Myster is in receipt of email exchange between myself and a physicist/forensic scientist who is arguably the world's leading expert on fingerprints. He confirmed latent fingerprints are notoriously difficult to lift from firearms due to the coating known as 'bluing'.
DI Cook told CAL had SC have been responsible he would have expected to have found more of SC's fingerprints on the rifle. DI Cook was supposedly the fingerprint expert!
Why do commentators always bring up the lack of fingerprints on rifle but overlook the silencer? And more importantly overlook the fact the casings were destroyed in 1996 against all protocols depriving JB of the possibility of using a new technology capable of lifting latent fingerprints from small cylindrical objects.
The buck must stop with the Home Office over poor training and supervision.
DI Cook - oblivious to the above (rifle).
DC Bird - Inexperienced soc photographer. Keep duff copies for audit.
DC Hammersly - Inexperienced swabbing hands - WHF first such occasion.
I totally agree with Puggy. Had Sheila used the rifle her fingerprints would be the primary ones on it and all over it. Any fingerprint expert can tell which print is the older print when two prints overlap.
We know the rifle was used to beat Nevill around the head so there should have been many prints all over it but there weren't. The only explanation for this would be either the perp wore gloves or the rifle was wiped clean before new prints were applied.
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was the gun magazine or any unspent shell casings tested for prints?
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was the gun magazine or any unspent shell casings tested for prints?
Yes, undoubtedly the entire assembly would have been checked for fingerprints and blood.
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Yes, undoubtedly the entire assembly would have been checked for fingerprints and blood.
and what were the results?
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and what were the results?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=24.0
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and what were the results?
Although the magazine detaches it forms an integral part of the rifle. A summary of the fingerprint results from CoA doc:
72. The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes.
http://www.homepage-link.to/Justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Although much has been made about fingerprints on the rifle we hear nothing about fingerprints on the silencer which was clearly handled extensively ungloved by the relatives and others.
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Up until recently it was difficult if not impossible to recover fingerprints from small cylindrical objects eg casings. New technology CERA now permits:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwiHV7nnG8g
Had the casings not been destroyed against all protocols it would have afforded JB the opportunity of attempting to recover fingerprints from the casings ie who loaded the mag!
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Up until recently it was difficult if not impossible to recover fingerprints from small cylindrical objects eg casings. New technology CERA now permits:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwiHV7nnG8g
Had the casings not been destroyed against all protocols it would have afforded JB the opportunity of attempting to recover fingerprints from the casings ie who loaded the mag!
He may actually be relieved.
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He may actually be relieved.
Indeed!
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Julie Mugford witness statement page 32 (http://i.imgur.com/sVQS2.jpg)
Not sure if the word here is ‘flaws’ ?
JM stated,
‘The reason for the flaws in the fingerprints was that during the fight with Mr Bamber a glove might have come off or been dropped and it might have rubbed Sheilas fingerprint off or have extra fingerprints on the gun which were ? ? Sheilas and would show up
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Not sure if the word here is ‘flaws’ ?
JM stated,
‘The reason for the flaws in the fingerprints was that during the fight with Mr Bamber a glove might have come off or been dropped and it might have rubbed Sheilas fingerprint off or have extra fingerprints on the gun which were ? ? Sheilas and would show up
That sounds like Jeremy had to wipe the rifle after the fight because his own fingerprints would have overlapped Nevill’s, proving he was the killer. Forensics would see by all the fingerprint patterns that Jeremy and Nevill struggled over the rifle. That’s why he had to wipe it clean of prints.
I can’t remember how many of Nevill’s fingerprints were found on the gun, but you’d imagine there’d be hundreds considering it belonged to him, and from memory, I think they only found a couple? And Sheila certainly wouldn’t have wiped them off.
Maybe JB was worried that he had no choice but to wipe the gun clean, and that should have alerted police as to why so few of Nevill’s fingerprints were on it.
Of course, after wiping it clean and having put his glove back on, he pressed Sheila’s finger onto it — just twice, I think? Which is also ridiculous. Sheila’s prints would’ve been all over it!
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That sounds like Jeremy had to wipe the rifle after the fight because his own fingerprints would have overlapped Nevill’s, proving he was the killer. Forensics would see by all the fingerprint patterns that Jeremy and Nevill struggled over the rifle. That’s why he had to wipe it clean of prints.
I can’t remember how many of Nevill’s fingerprints were found on the gun, but you’d imagine there’d be hundreds considering it belonged to him, and from memory, I think they only found a couple? And Sheila certainly wouldn’t have wiped them off.
Maybe JB was worried that he had no choice but to wipe the gun clean, and that should have alerted police as to why so few of Nevill’s fingerprints were on it.
Of course, after wiping it clean and having put his glove back on, he pressed Sheila’s finger onto it — just twice, I think? Which is also ridiculous. Sheila’s prints would’ve been all over it!
Are there photos of the fingerprints in relation to where on the gun they were found ?
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Are there photos of the fingerprints in relation to where on the gun they were found ?
I’m not sure — I don’t remember seeing any.
I’m sure there must be exhibits somewhere...
I do know they documented how many prints were on the gun, and whose. That’s definitely online somewhere and is probably in the court documents. I’ve read so much, to be honest, that I’ve got brain overload and need to reboot my bonce 🤯
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I’m not sure — I don’t remember seeing any.
I’m sure there must be exhibits somewhere...
I do know the documented how many prints were on the gun, and how many. That’s definitely online somewhere and is probably in the court documents. I’ve read so much, to be honest, that I’ve got brain overload and need to reboot my bonce 🤯
Did Mike Tesko ever publish them ?
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That sounds like Jeremy had to wipe the rifle after the fight because his own fingerprints would have overlapped Nevill’s, proving he was the killer. Forensics would see by all the fingerprint patterns that Jeremy and Nevill struggled over the rifle. That’s why he had to wipe it clean of prints.
I can’t remember how many of Nevill’s fingerprints were found on the gun, but you’d imagine there’d be hundreds considering it belonged to him, and from memory, I think they only found a couple? And Sheila certainly wouldn’t have wiped them off.
Maybe JB was worried that he had no choice but to wipe the gun clean, and that should have alerted police as to why so few of Nevill’s fingerprints were on it.
Of course, after wiping it clean and having put his glove back on, he pressed Sheila’s finger onto it — just twice, I think? Which is also ridiculous. Sheila’s prints would’ve been all over it!
It is all the little things that ultimately added up convinced me in the end. It's all very logical if one takes the times to study it.
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It is all the little things that ultimately added up convinced me in the end. It's all very logical if one takes the times to study it.
Me too, I found myself (like a few others) making excuses for more and more issues. Too many excuses and coincidences to the point where they couldn't have been down to chance anymore.
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The rifle was examined for fingerprints:
72. The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes.
Instead of relying on what we are told JM claimed about a glove falling off, is there some explanation as to why the rifle contained so few fingerprints despite being handled extensively by others? Seems so:
Firearms are perhaps among the most difficult objects to yield good latent fingerprints. According to Clemens, technicians will typically get prints on only about ten percent of the guns that are inspected.
“Why are guns so difficult? There are a number of factors involved,” said Clemens. “One of them has to do with the textured nature of the area where the gun is being held. That area is not good for prints. Another factor has to do with how the firearm was treated before the crime. If the person took good care of it, then it probably has oil on it—which makes it almost impossible to get a good print. And if they have not taken care of it, the surface might be rusty—and rust is not good for lifting prints.”
http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22
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Why does no one ask about the silencer when talking about fingerprints?
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And what about the casings that were destroyed in 1996 against all protocols?
165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
Had the casings not been destroyed they could now be fingerprinted using new technology. They would either reveal JB's, SC's or no prints suggesting a gloved JB.
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Why does no one ask about the silencer when talking about fingerprints?
Probably because it was passed around like a peace pipe at a pow wow.
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Probably because it was passed around like a peace pipe at a pow wow.
?>)()<
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The rifle was examined for fingerprints:
72. The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes.
Instead of relying on what we are told JM claimed about a glove falling off, is there some explanation as to why the rifle contained so few fingerprints despite being handled extensively by others? Seems so:
Firearms are perhaps among the most difficult objects to yield good latent fingerprints. According to Clemens, technicians will typically get prints on only about ten percent of the guns that are inspected.
“Why are guns so difficult? There are a number of factors involved,” said Clemens. “One of them has to do with the textured nature of the area where the gun is being held. That area is not good for prints. Another factor has to do with how the firearm was treated before the crime. If the person took good care of it, then it probably has oil on it—which makes it almost impossible to get a good print. And if they have not taken care of it, the surface might be rusty—and rust is not good for lifting prints.”
http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22
Which part of the Anschutz was textured? How often was it oiled? Was it rusty?
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Why does no one ask about the silencer when talking about fingerprints?
Why would they?
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And what about the casings that were destroyed in 1996 against all protocols?
165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
Had the casings not been destroyed they could now be fingerprinted using new technology. They would either reveal JB's, SC's or no prints suggesting a gloved JB.
Or no identifiable prints in which case back to the drawing board.
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I know we've been here before. But you can't deny that the gun would have been smothered in Sheila's prints. According to you, she didn't just shoot, she turned the gun around and battered Nevill with it. Every part of that gun would have been covered with Sheila's prints.
This is why Bamber will stay where he is. Because he's a mean son of a bitch. And a raving psychopath.
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I totally agree with Puggy. Had Sheila used the rifle her fingerprints would be the primary ones on it and all over it. Any fingerprint expert can tell which print is the older print when two prints overlap.
We know the rifle was used to beat Nevill around the head so there should have been many prints all over it but there weren't. The only explanation for this would be either the perp wore gloves or the rifle was wiped clean before new prints were applied.
Absolutely, John.
It’s patently obvious that in the violent struggle over the rifle between Jeremy and Nevill, one of his gloves would so easily have fallen off. And that’s why he had no option but to wipe the whole rifle clean of all fingerprints as it would have shown Jeremy’s prints overlapping Nevill’s.
That could have been why he was so enraged even after Nevill was dead, and kicked and smashed his dead body about — he was furious he’d had to clean the prints off.
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Did Mike Tesko ever publish them ?
I’ve no idea, Nicholas
Mike Tesko was before my time on here, so I know little about him except he seems very odd
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I’ve no idea, Nicholas
Mike Tesko was before my time on here, so I know little about him except he seems very odd
Mike Tesko is on the Blue forum. AFAIK, he hasn't been on here, but I could be wrong.
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Did Mike Tesko ever publish them ?
There was one from Jeremy and one from Sheila, there were other illegible prints.
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Why would they?
Why wouldn't they it is after all arguably the most important exhibit.
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Which part of the Anschutz was textured? How often was it oiled? Was it rusty?
Most firearms are treated with a coating which makes it difficult to recover fingerprints from.
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Or no identifiable prints in which case back to the drawing board.
Why would the brass casings not reveal fingerprints assuming the perp wasn't wearing gloves?
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Why would the brass casings not reveal fingerprints assuming the perp wasn't wearing gloves?
Because loading them would lead to smudging.
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Why wouldn't they it is after all arguably the most important exhibit.
It would be pointless given how it was handled.
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Because loading them would lead to smudging.
Not according to a forensic scientist:
Many thanks for your e-mail. The technology I invented, which is available commercially as CERA, is intended to visualise fingerprints on metals as a result of corrosion caused by the fingerprint sweat, rather than trying to visualise the sweat itself. This means that fingerprints can be found many years after they were deposited and after the sweat has been removed. It is unfortunate, therefore, that the casings no longer exist as they are a very good source of corroded fingerprints. Weapons are treated with a technique to give them a nice finish and to prevent tarnishing (often known as 'bluing'). This effectively prevents fingerprint sweat from corroding the metal, so my technique for fingerprint visualisation is very unlikely to work. Further, from what you say, there is no audit trial of who has handled the weapon over the past thirty years. This would make the identification and evidential value of any fingerprints now recovered very problematic.
If I can assist further, please let me know.
Kind regards,
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Most firearms are treated with a coating which makes it difficult to recover fingerprints from.
Was that the case with the murder weapon in this case Holly or don’t you know
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Not according to a forensic scientist:
Many thanks for your e-mail. The technology I invented, which is available commercially as CERA, is intended to visualise fingerprints on metals as a result of corrosion caused by the fingerprint sweat, rather than trying to visualise the sweat itself. This means that fingerprints can be found many years after they were deposited and after the sweat has been removed. It is unfortunate, therefore, that the casings no longer exist as they are a very good source of corroded fingerprints. Weapons are treated with a technique to give them a nice finish and to prevent tarnishing (often known as 'bluing'). This effectively prevents fingerprint sweat from corroding the metal, so my technique for fingerprint visualisation is very unlikely to work. Further, from what you say, there is no audit trial of who has handled the weapon over the past thirty years. This would make the identification and evidential value of any fingerprints now recovered very problematic.
If I can assist further, please let me know.
Kind regards,
And another forensic scientist could disagree