UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2018, 12:45:12 PM

Title: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2018, 12:45:12 PM
Includes footage of Eddie alerting inside the burnt-out car

https://player.vimeo.com/video/174270610

Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 03:06:55 PM

An interesting video, Patfinder.  Well worth a watch.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 14, 2018, 01:37:44 AM
Includes footage of Eddie alerting inside the burnt-out car

https://player.vimeo.com/video/174270610

Interesting that initially there was no evidence but futher forensics confirmed the dog was correct.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2018, 07:16:48 AM
Includes footage of Eddie alerting inside the burnt-out car

https://player.vimeo.com/video/174270610
That would be all original footage too?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 14, 2018, 02:01:54 PM
No it is not all original footage when it says 'Reconstruction' on finding the body etc. That dog doesn't look like Eddie.

This a photo from the Attracta Harron case
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tlVkl-Oymjc/WM01GAMxmFI/AAAAAAAAI6U/WS1uobxG4isWhvjyrOFxQGbBsAVgmMcKQCLcB/s400/eddie%2Band%2Bkeela%2B%25283%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2018, 08:06:58 PM
Includes footage of Eddie alerting inside the burnt-out car

https://player.vimeo.com/video/174270610
Are you now saying the footage in the video was real or was it acting?  I thought I heard Martin Grimes' voice calling out to Eddie in the documentary.

Was it case footage or re-enactment?  I'm confused now. 
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 14, 2018, 08:10:29 PM
There was both. Actual Police footage is actual footage. What do you think a Reconstruction is?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2018, 09:07:56 PM
There was both. Actual Police footage is actual footage. What do you think a Reconstruction is?
Just the Eddie/Grime bit - is that bit reconstruction?

I'd watch it again but my internet is playing up.

Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 14, 2018, 10:01:01 PM
Eddie searching the vehicles is real footage. Eddie finding the body is a reconstruction.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 14, 2018, 10:03:51 PM
Eddie searching the vehicles is real footage. Eddie finding the body is a reconstruction.

This is the case where Eddie ..the victim recovery dog...found a victim ..the only time in his whole career
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Sunny on October 14, 2018, 10:13:00 PM
This is the case where Eddie ..the victim recovery dog...found a victim ..the only time in his whole career

Apart from this one Davel?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sanday-murder-trial-the-orkney-island-1052099
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 14, 2018, 10:15:34 PM
Apart from this one Davel?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sanday-murder-trial-the-orkney-island-1052099

Yes...I thought there was another one after pdl...so it's two

Amaral claimed the dogs had solved 200 cases...but 2 is closer to the truth
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Sunny on October 14, 2018, 10:29:22 PM
Yes...I thought there was another one after pdl...so it's two

Amaral claimed the dogs had solved 200 cases...but 2 is closer to the truth

Or was it three Davel?

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/7281414.Last_act_of_a_killer/
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2018, 10:39:45 PM
Eddie searching the vehicles is real footage. Eddie finding the body is a reconstruction.
OK  Thanks I'll watch it again.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 14, 2018, 10:40:49 PM
Or was it three Davel?

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/7281414.Last_act_of_a_killer/

Not sure about that one...but still 197 to go
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Sunny on October 14, 2018, 10:48:47 PM
Not sure about that one...but still 197 to go

Martin Grime didn't say Eddie had found 200 bodies Davel. You said only 1 you are incorrect.

So far Eddie has found 2 more than you said so 300% of your initial tally.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 14, 2018, 11:20:22 PM
Yes...I thought there was another one after pdl...so it's two

Amaral claimed the dogs had solved 200 cases...but 2 is closer to the truth

Amanda Edwards on a building site. Shane Collier. In most crimes the body is moved so it's up to the investigators to locate new areas for the dogs to search. If they select the wrong place then no body will be found!

A no-fly zone was put in place and members of the Major Crime and Missing Persons Bureau in Hampshire, who played an important role in the Soham murder investigation, and a sniffer dog from South Yorkshire police, were brought in.

Shortly after 1pm the dog was reported to have started barking, giving rise to speculation that a body had been found.

Ms Edwards' body was removed from the building site last night.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/apr/17/ukcrime

In March, 2002, they played a major role in locating the body of Barnsley murder victim 21-year-old Shane Collier. Even though his body had been cut up into parts and buried five months earlier, the dogs found them in a remote woodland in Cumbria. The South Yorkshire police dogs Frankie and Eddie and their handlers now work as part of the special search unit operation by the National Crime and Operations Faculty.

https://www.thestar.co.uk/whats-on/out-and-about/dogs-find-body-parts-of-murder-victim-1-320914
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Faithlilly on October 14, 2018, 11:56:51 PM
Amanda Edwards on a building site. Shane Collier. In most crimes the body is moved so it's up to the investigators to locate new areas for the dogs to search. If they select the wrong place then no body will be found!

A no-fly zone was put in place and members of the Major Crime and Missing Persons Bureau in Hampshire, who played an important role in the Soham murder investigation, and a sniffer dog from South Yorkshire police, were brought in.

Shortly after 1pm the dog was reported to have started barking, giving rise to speculation that a body had been found.

Ms Edwards' body was removed from the building site last night.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/apr/17/ukcrime

In March, 2002, they played a major role in locating the body of Barnsley murder victim 21-year-old Shane Collier. Even though his body had been cut up into parts and buried five months earlier, the dogs found them in a remote woodland in Cumbria. The South Yorkshire police dogs Frankie and Eddie and their handlers now work as part of the special search unit operation by the National Crime and Operations Faculty.

https://www.thestar.co.uk/whats-on/out-and-about/dogs-find-body-parts-of-murder-victim-1-320914

And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 07:26:49 AM
And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.

Martin Grime was so well thought of he travelled to the USA in September 2007 to work on the Theresa Parker case.

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.

During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.

"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.


http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/

I
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 15, 2018, 07:27:12 AM
And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.
In both those examples the dog located actual remains.  In this case it did not.  It is therefore not surprising that members of Operation Grange have left the possibility of Madeleine being alive after leaving the apartment on the table.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 07:45:33 AM
And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.
And sceptics still don't realise the value of the dogs is in the evidence they recover...no evidence ..no value
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: barrier on October 15, 2018, 08:24:20 AM
And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.

Strange innit.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 08:47:24 AM
Strange innit.
Not strange on the basis the alerts have no value or reliability as evidence according to the experts
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 09:24:54 AM
And supporters think that OG and the PJ will disregard the alerts of this highly efficient cadaver dog.

Highly confused  Victim Recovery Dog.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 09:26:02 AM
In both those examples the dog located actual remains.  In this case it did not.  It is therefore not surprising that members of Operation Grange have left the possibility of Madeleine being alive after leaving the apartment on the table.

Any dog can find a cadaver if there is one.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Faithlilly on October 15, 2018, 09:56:09 AM
And sceptics still don't realise the value of the dogs is in the evidence they recover...no evidence ..no value

State v Bailey, an American case but nonetheless pertinent.

the evidence showed the cadaver dog was trained to detect human cadaver scent, not simply to find dead human bodies.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 09:56:29 AM
Not strange on the basis the alerts have no value or reliability as evidence according to the experts

Can you cite the experts statement about value.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:58:40 AM
Can you cite the experts statement about value.
Grime said no evidential reliability and Harrison no evidential value... Harrison went further and said no inference s could be drawn from the alerts


 of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.




So Harrison says no inferences can be drawn without supporting PHYSICAL evidence
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:05:29 AM
 stamps.

After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 10:09:22 AM
Grime said no evidential reliability and Harrison no evidential value... Harrison went further and said no inference s could be drawn from the alerts


 of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.




So Harrison says no inferences can be drawn without supporting PHYSICAL evidence

So Harrison the none expert says value, thanks.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Faithlilly on October 15, 2018, 10:19:24 AM
stamps.

After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.

Cadaver dog evidence is routinely accepted as evidence in American trials. Like fingerprint evidence, which at first was thought by some to be nonsense, I believe it will eventually be entered routinely as evidence in the U.K. as well....we only have to look at the Harron, Prout and Pilley case to see this.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 10:25:33 AM
So Harrison the none expert says value, thanks.

No he doesn't.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:26:22 AM
So Harrison the none expert says value, thanks.

He's far more of an expert than those giving contrary views on here...would you not agree
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:34:25 AM
Cadaver dog evidence is routinely accepted as evidence in American trials. Like fingerprint evidence, which at first was thought by some to be nonsense, I believe it will eventually be entered routinely as evidence in the U.K. as well....we only have to look at the Harron, Prout and Pilley case to see this.

Your opinion...based on Grimes testimony I don't see it happening.. fingerprints are backed by science...there is no science to support unconfirmed alerts..
I can't understand how the alert to CC can be seen by some as any kind of evidence
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 15, 2018, 10:50:21 AM
Cadaver dog evidence is routinely accepted as evidence in American trials. Like fingerprint evidence, which at first was thought by some to be nonsense, I believe it will eventually be entered routinely as evidence in the U.K. as well....we only have to look at the Harron, Prout and Pilley case to see this.
That's an interesting premise, is it not?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:51:49 AM
That's an interesting premise, is it not?

I can't see how it can be accepted when the expert says the alerts have no evidential reliability
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 11:12:06 AM
Cadaver dog evidence is routinely accepted as evidence in American trials. Like fingerprint evidence, which at first was thought by some to be nonsense, I believe it will eventually be entered routinely as evidence in the U.K. as well....we only have to look at the Harron, Prout and Pilley case to see this.
Afaiac the alerts are not routinely admitted as evidence...do you have s cite for that
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 11:12:42 AM
No he doesn't.

That was whet Davel quoted unless you have more information you wish to share?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 11:13:30 AM
He's far more of an expert than those giving contrary views on here...would you not agree

No. He is not a dog handler he will have read up on the use of dogs as have many on here.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 11:16:47 AM
No. He is not a dog handler he will have read up on the use of dogs as have many on here.
So where does that place amarals opinion of the alerts?
So the fact that he will have spoke personally to Grime makes no difference...iyo....we still have grime stating no evidential reliability...you cannot avoid that one
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 11:17:13 AM
That was whet Davel quoted unless you have more information you wish to share?

Read it again.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 15, 2018, 11:29:49 AM
I can't see how it can be accepted when the expert says the alerts have no evidential reliability
You are talking about what was SAID (not SAYS) 11 years ago.  Did fingerprint evidence become accepted overnight?  I was talking about now and in the future.  Madeleine's case has no relevance, does it?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 11:35:31 AM
You are talking about what was SAID (not SAYS) 11 years ago.  Did fingerprint evidence become accepted overnight?  I was talking about now and in the future.  Madeleine's case has no relevance, does it?

Nothing has changed re the alerts in the past 11 years....still no independent evidence.......if the alerts can somehow be verified by independent testing then things could change...but are they reliable enough to satisfy testing...we still don't have any evidence
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: xtina on October 15, 2018, 11:53:18 AM
Nothing has changed re the alerts in the past 11 years....still no independent evidence.......if the alerts can somehow be verified by independent testing then things could change...but are they reliable enough to satisfy testing...we still don't have any evidence


Why do you think there was no DNA of maddie in the apartment...

why did gmcc have to go back to UK for it...

is it because possibly most of it was cleaned away....
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 11:58:33 AM

Why do you think there was no DNA of maddie in the apartment...

why did gmcc have to go back to UK for it...

is it because possibly most of it was cleaned away....

I'm sure there was Maddies DNA in the apartment.....it's more complicated than you think....where's the cite for this
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Snowgirl on October 15, 2018, 12:07:00 PM
Not strange on the basis the alerts have no value or reliability as evidence according to the experts
Why then use dogs at all ?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 12:07:52 PM

Why do you think there was no DNA of maddie in the apartment...

why did gmcc have to go back to UK for it...

is it because possibly most of it was cleaned away....

This is not strictly true.  But any DNA of Madeleine in the appartment was likely contaminated.  So they fetched her pillowcase from UK because that was almost certainly uncontaminated.

To say that there was No DNA of Madeleine in the appartment is disingenuous to say the least.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: xtina on October 15, 2018, 12:08:32 PM
I'm sure there was Maddies DNA in the apartment.....it's more complicated than you think....where's the cite for this

The cite for what.....my questions......
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: xtina on October 15, 2018, 12:11:47 PM
This is not strictly true.  But any DNA of Madeleine in the appartment was likely contaminated.  So they fetched her pillowcase from UK because that was almost certainly uncontaminated.

To say that there was No DNA of Madeleine in the appartment is disingenuous to say the least.

How would the pillowcase off her bed in the apartment ...be contaminated...
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 12:17:59 PM
How would the pillowcase off her bed in the apartment ...be contaminated...

All the children slept in the same room....to say there was no DNA of Maddie in the apartment isn't true
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Eleanor on October 15, 2018, 12:18:21 PM
How would the pillowcase off her bed in the apartment ...be contaminated...

Wasn't the bedlinen sent to the laundry the next morning?
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 12:27:44 PM
Wasn't the bedlinen sent to the laundry the next morning?
On Saturday morning.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 15, 2018, 01:01:07 PM
Nothing has changed re the alerts in the past 11 years....still no independent evidence.......if the alerts can somehow be verified by independent testing then things could change...but are they reliable enough to satisfy testing...we still don't have any evidence
I would ask you to back this up with a cite ....

.... but .....

.... I know I would be wasting my time.

Accordingly, I will confine your post to my dustbin.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 01:04:11 PM
I would ask you to back this up with a cite ....

.... but .....

.... I know I would be wasting my time.

Accordingly, I will confine your post to my dustbin.

That's a surprising statement after you refused to supply a cite for your claim yesterday....what would you like a cite for

You can put my post where you like it doesn't matter as afaiac your refusal to provide a cite means you have no credibility
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 04:58:39 PM
Read it again.

I did,
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: slartibartfast on October 15, 2018, 05:32:48 PM
Read it again.

Perhaps you could point out where Davel says any different to what I said instead of ignoring the question.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Lace on October 16, 2018, 11:41:45 AM
How would the pillowcase off her bed in the apartment ...be contaminated...

Likely because they all sat on Madeleine's bed for stories,  or lay on it.
Title: Re: In Cold Blood Documentary: The Murder of Attracta Harron
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 19, 2018, 12:54:45 AM
Eddie searching the vehicles is real footage. Eddie finding the body is a reconstruction.
So true.