UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 09:11:56 PM

Title: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 09:11:56 PM
"Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes, Santiago del Valle Garcia And Clarence Mitchell Says"
http://www.anorak.co.uk/182448/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-mari-luz-cortes-santiago-del-valle-garcia-and-clarence-mitchell-says.html

Is it true they printed thousands of posters?

"The 52-year-old convicted paedophile was arrested late yesterday on suspicion of killing Mari Luz Cortes, the five-year-old whose disappearance was initially linked to Madeleine’s.

The McCanns printed thousands of posters with pictures of their daughter and Mari Luz on them in a bid to solve the two cases.

The cases were not linked by everyone. Juan Jose Cortes, the girl’s father said at the time: “We don’t think it’s appropriate to relate one thing with the other, because they are two distinct cases, two different countries and two different lines of investigation. Nobody asked us anything.”

How did they print these"  How did they get rid of them?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 10:28:30 PM
I get the feeling the McCanns felt there was some connection between the abduction of Mari Cortes and Madeleine.

What would they have done with thousands of posters?

On their trip to Huelva Kate is seen holding a different looking poster.  Did they also have thousands of other posters too?  They only spent 1 or 2 days in Spain on this mission for the Renault hire car was taken  a few days later to be examined by Martin Grimes' dogs.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 10:45:57 PM

Translated article; "Wife of killer in Mari Luz case given two years for perjury" https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/13/inenglish/1368468804_498421.html

"The wife of Santiago del Valle, the man convicted of the January 2008 murder of five-year-old Mari Luz Cortés in Huelva, has been sentenced to two years in prison and fined 732 euros for giving false testimony during her husband's trial.


The judge considered that Isabel García "radically" changed the story she had given during the investigation stage of the 2011 trial to favor her husband and damage her sister-in-law, Rosa del Valle. Her husband was sentenced to 22 years in jail for the murder, while his sister received nine years as an accomplice.
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inRead invented by Teads


According to the sentence, García falsely said it was her sister-in-law who "called over the girl Mari Luz to get her into the house, who got her inside and gave her a bag of sweets, that the girl fell on the stairs; that Rosa had put her inside a shopping cart, covering her with a jacket and then, in the trunk of the car, took her to the marsh where, after recovering consciousness, she hit her again and threw her in the water." García said Rosa del Valle had told her this during a conversation in Pajaroncillo, Cuenca, in March 2008.

García refused to give evidence in her trial last week, but Del Valle did. She said she had "never spoken alone with her sister-in-law" about the death of Mari Luz and that García lied during the trial, incriminating her in the murder to cause her damage."


I wonder how the parents of Mari worked out that the killer was not involved in the McCann case? 

I suppose he might have had a water tight alibi for the 3rd May 2007?  But the guy "Santiago del Valle" had not murdered Mari until "January 2008" so the posters can't possibly be the ones in the car heading to Huelva in August 2007.  - Now that makes more sense.

Madeleine missing 3 May 2007

Boot load of posters taken to Huelva on the 4th/5th August 2007

Mari Cortes murdered in January 2008

Did "Santiago del Valle" have an alibi for 03 may 2007?

 



 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 25, 2018, 10:58:16 PM
     "Says Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns: “We hope the Portuguese police will be liaising with the Spanish police to establish this man’s movements around the time Madeleine disappeared.

    “We have no indication there is a direct link between the two cases. But given the proximity of the places Madeleine and Mari Luz disappeared from and the similarity in their ages, we believe it’s important the Portuguese police make absolutely sure there’s no connection now there’s been an arrest.”"


I am sure the police were eternally grateful for the spin doctor telling them what they should do !
I wonder on what definition of "proximity" he relies? close on 200 klicks and two and a bit hours in another country. Sounds like a bit of kidology.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 11:02:36 PM
This connection is interesting in that the next article says Santiago del Valle García  had been convicted of paedophilia before.

"Suspect confesses accidental death of Mari Luz Cortés"
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/suspect-confesses-accidental-death-of.html
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: misty on October 25, 2018, 11:04:36 PM
     "Says Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns: “We hope the Portuguese police will be liaising with the Spanish police to establish this man’s movements around the time Madeleine disappeared.

    “We have no indication there is a direct link between the two cases. But given the proximity of the places Madeleine and Mari Luz disappeared from and the similarity in their ages, we believe it’s important the Portuguese police make absolutely sure there’s no connection now there’s been an arrest.”"


I am sure the police were eternally grateful for the spin doctor telling them what they should do !
I wonder on what definition of "proximity" he relies? close on 200 klicks and two and a bit hours in another country. Sounds like a bit of kidology.

Robert Black had victims in England, Ireland & Scotland & was suspected in other cases on mainland Europe.  Why not suspect Madeleine's & Mari's cases could be linked until proved otherwise?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 11:06:07 PM
     "Says Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns: “We hope the Portuguese police will be liaising with the Spanish police to establish this man’s movements around the time Madeleine disappeared.

    “We have no indication there is a direct link between the two cases. But given the proximity of the places Madeleine and Mari Luz disappeared from and the similarity in their ages, we believe it’s important the Portuguese police make absolutely sure there’s no connection now there’s been an arrest.”"


I am sure the police were eternally grateful for the spin doctor telling them what they should do !
I wonder on what definition of "proximity" he relies? close on 200 klicks and two and a bit hours in another country. Sounds like a bit of kidology.
It might sound a long way from PdL but what was he doing at the time?  Was he on holiday?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 11:14:03 PM
Her body was found "Civil Guard sources have confirmed that the body was badly composed and was wearing the same clothes as on the day she disappeared fifty days earlier." https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mari-luz-corts-tragic-ending.html

Did they have some reason to suspect Santiago?  Sounds like a neighbour, and a history of paedophilia, what else?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2018, 11:24:41 PM

The police were saying that it is quite OK to send a 5 year old up town to do shopping on her own.

That is not as bad as leaving your children alone asleep even with regular checking!

I find that a bit odd actually.
"Maddie and Mari Luz

Mari Luz disappeared from a public area. Maddie and her siblings were abandoned by their parents [...] they were exposed to chance

"Every time that a sequence of violent acts occurs, whether homicides, abductions, or terrorist acts, the first exercise that our common sense memory does, is to search for communions and to make analogies that tend to generalistic judgements that puff up one or another solution. When these facts have a strong impact within the media, the level of certainty that is formulated increases even more. It is therefore hardly surprising, that the disappearance of Mari Luz prompted the search for identifications with the Maddie case, leading to the comfortable and opportunistic theory that there are connections between both cases, both being the victims of a sexual predator.

There do not exist. Although close in time, they are absolutely different cases. Beginning with the space where the facts took place. Maddie disappeared from the room where she was sleeping, alongside her siblings, inside the apartment that belonged to her parents, even if only for the duration of their holidays. Mari Luz disappeared from a public space. The time coordinate is also different. The English girl disappeared during the night, the Spanish girl disappeared during the day. The location is also different. Mari Luz disappears in a street of her neighbourhood - and those who know this area in Huelva, know that we are talking about a poor community, of degraded housing or modest construction, which is inhabited by persons with financial difficulties, where the street is used by its inhabitants as a playground. To play on the streets in Torrejon is a socially normal action, there are neighbourhood relationships, the bonds of social mutual recognition are evident. It is normal for a mother to send her child shopping. According to the daily behaviour patterns, it cannot be said that the parents abandoned Mari Luz. That space is the community's territory. Maddie and her siblings were abandoned by their parents, in a foreign country, in a quality resort but, due to their short stay, that was strange to them and to their children. They went out to drink while the children were delivered to chance. But within a safe, controlled unit, without space for an abductor to act naturally. The public space is where abductions take place, by excellence. On streets, in shopping areas, on beaches, or when large crowds meet in open air. The private space, the home, is the territory of love, of violence, of tenderness and of death. But this is not where differences end. Mari Luz's parents immediately communicated the case to authorities. The police heard about Maddie long after the English diplomacy and Sky News did. The parents of Mari Luz expose themselves, in their suffering and distress, to the police and to the media. Maddie's parents chose to make emotional appeals but without a coherent explanation about what happened. They brought in a spokesperson to tell the press what it wanted to hear, but themselves, when it was time, refused to talk and left. The organised web never wanted to discuss the case's details. They chose to insult the PJ and the country that gave them shelter.

The truth, the sad truth, is that two children went missing. One, almost certainly, is dead. The other, the authorities still hope to find her alive. I hope they will. Unfortunately, these are not the first cases, and they will not be the last ones. They are cases from our common life. Unfortunately."
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccanns-now-want-to-question-mari-luz.html

Interview with "former PJ Chief-Inspector and Criminologist Moita Flores".


Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 25, 2018, 11:40:41 PM
Robert Black had victims in England, Ireland & Scotland & was suspected in other cases on mainland Europe.  Why not suspect Madeleine's & Mari's cases could be linked until proved otherwise?

I am objecting to the misuse of the English language in misdirection and misinformation.
What would have been wrong with saying it's only two hours away and near enough on the same road.

proximity
/prɒkˈsɪmɪti/
noun
noun: proximity
    nearness in space, time, or relationship.

Judge for yourself; is 200km near in space? and is two hours near in time?

Mr Mitchell also once said about a run, K & G are running for the Madeleine Fund and other charities.



Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: misty on October 25, 2018, 11:44:58 PM
I am objecting to the misuse of the English language in misdirection and misinformation.
What would have been wrong with saying it's only two hours away and near enough on the same road.

proximity
/prɒkˈsɪmɪti/
noun
noun: proximity
    nearness in space, time, or relationship.

Judge for yourself; is 200km near in space? and is two hours near in time?

Mr Mitchell also once said about a run, K & G are running for the Madeleine Fund and other charities.


That rather depends on the time of day on the traffic on the M4 or M25......
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 25, 2018, 11:45:16 PM
I am objecting to the misuse of the English language in misdirection and misinformation.
What would have been wrong with saying it's only two hours away and near enough on the same road.

proximity
/prɒkˈsɪmɪti/
noun
noun: proximity
    nearness in space, time, or relationship.

Judge for yourself; is 200km near in space? and is two hours near in time?

Mr Mitchell also once said about a run, K & G are running for the Madeleine Fund and other charities.

If an asteroid missed colliding with the Earth by 200 km that would be a very near miss indeed.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2018, 12:52:31 AM
A sizeable asteroid passing by at 200 km would be very very close indeed.

Another one hard to believe is this "DAILY STAR: “MADDIE COPS PROBE LINK TO SNATCH GIRL”

“Police in Portugal were last night investigating whether the fiend who snatched a five-year-old girl in Spain also took Madeleine McCann. Guilhermino Encarnacao, a key member of the Maddie squad, was drafted in to join the hunt for little Mari Lui Cortes” – Not to be confused with Mari Luz Cortes"
http://www.anorak.co.uk/179483/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-mari-luz-cortes-maddy-2-and-gerry-mccann-writes.html

Were there two missing girls "Mari Lui Cortes" and "Mari Luz Cortes"?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 12:52:43 AM
Robert Black had victims in England, Ireland & Scotland & was suspected in other cases on mainland Europe.  Why not suspect Madeleine's & Mari's cases could be linked until proved otherwise?

The Spanish police followed Protocol and alerted Portugal when Mari Luz disappeared.


The police alert to Portugal of the disappearance of the Huelva girl
Huelva 16 JAN 20082

The Portuguese police are already aware of the disappearance of Mari Luz Cortés, the five-year-old girl from Huelva who disappeared since Sunday afternoon, when she left home alone to buy a bag of potatoes from a nearby kiosk. "There is a coordination protocol with the border police that has been launched in the case of the Portuguese," said yesterday the Government delegate in Andalusia, Juan José López Garzón.

The implementation of the collaboration protocol is common in police investigations that occur in border areas, according to the Government Sub-delegation in Huelva.

In this way, the police of the neighboring country are notified of the search undertaken, so that they are also alert there.
_________________________________________________________

The case has already transcended borders. And it has done so in relation to the case of Madeleine McCann, the British girl who disappeared in the Algarve (Portugal) on May 3. British journalists yesterday went to Huelva to cover the event and in the digital edition of the tabloid Daily Mail the headline read: "The police are looking for a five-year-old girl who disappeared 120 miles from the McCann hotel."

Precisely, Juan José Cortés, the father of Mari Luz, was asked yesterday if he believed that the disappearance of his daughter had something to do with Madelaine's. Cortés wanted to be very cautious: "We are clear that all these things will have to be clarified by the police," he said.

The family of Mari Luz received yesterday, among other testimonies of support, the call of the mother of Yeremi, the Canary child disappeared since March 2007.
https://elpais.com/diario/2008/01/16/espana/1200438032_850215.html
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 12:55:44 AM
A sizeable asteroid passing by at 200 km would be very very close indeed.

Another one hard to believe is this "DAILY STAR: “MADDIE COPS PROBE LINK TO SNATCH GIRL”

“Police in Portugal were last night investigating whether the fiend who snatched a five-year-old girl in Spain also took Madeleine McCann. Guilhermino Encarnacao, a key member of the Maddie squad, was drafted in to join the hunt for little Mari Lui Cortes” – Not to be confused with Mari Luz Cortes"
http://www.anorak.co.uk/179483/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-mari-luz-cortes-maddy-2-and-gerry-mccann-writes.html

Were there two missing girls "Mari Lui Cortes" and "Mari Luz Cortes"?
One is enough, I think.   Mari Luz is the little girl who was missing later found dead.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 02:27:06 AM
"Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes, Santiago del Valle Garcia And Clarence Mitchell Says"
http://www.anorak.co.uk/182448/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-mari-luz-cortes-santiago-del-valle-garcia-and-clarence-mitchell-says.html

Is it true they printed thousands of posters?

"The 52-year-old convicted paedophile was arrested late yesterday on suspicion of killing Mari Luz Cortes, the five-year-old whose disappearance was initially linked to Madeleine’s.

The McCanns printed thousands of posters with pictures of their daughter and Mari Luz on them in a bid to solve the two cases.

The cases were not linked by everyone. Juan Jose Cortes, the girl’s father said at the time: “We don’t think it’s appropriate to relate one thing with the other, because they are two distinct cases, two different countries and two different lines of investigation. Nobody asked us anything.”

How did they print these"  How did they get rid of them?

I'm beginning to have my doubts about the veracity of reports like this, Robitty. 

I have found one Spanish Language blog making reference and unbelievably I also found a hate page directed at Mari Luz's father ensconced in the bowels of a blog dedicated to dissing the McCanns 🤪 (which I'm not going to link to)

I have found quite a few references to Kate and Gerry McCann having been in touch with Mari Luz's family in January when she first went missing; to them sending their condolences as well as to posters showing Mari Luz and Madeleine with no dissent or acrimony about the posters passing between them.

Like Madeleine's family, Mari Luz's family were seeking their daughter too ... so why would they object to being assisted by a free poster campaign putting her face out there?
Just doesn't make sense to me.

For example ...

CONVOLENCES OF MARRIAGE McCANN

The parents of Madeleine McCann, the British girl who disappeared in May 2007 in Praia da Luz (Portugal), have conveyed their condolences to the Cortes. The McCanns had already been in contact with Mari Luz's parents when their disappearance was known on January 13 of this year, and they had even posted posters with images of the two girls. They had also remembered that Huelva is less than 200 kilometers from the Algarve, where the girl was seen for the last time.

The British marriage spokesman has declared that "they are very sad" and that "their thoughts and prayers are with the relatives at this time."
https://diarioevangelicoberea.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/la-familia-de-mariluz-hija-del-pastor-gitano-jose-cortes-vela-su-cadaver/


THE LONDON / HUELVA NEWSPAPER

Sunday, 03/09/2008 at 00:00 CET

Aware as few of the painful moments they are going through, Madeleine McCann's parents sent a message of condolence yesterday to the relatives of the little girl Mari Luz Cortés, the 5-year-old girl whose body appeared floating on Friday in the waters of the port of Huelva. after being disappeared almost two months. The McCanns, who since May 2007 carry out an intense campaign to find Maddie's whereabouts , declared themselves "very sorry" for the tragic fate of the Andalusian girl.

"Kate and Gerry have closely followed the search for Mari Luz and feel that there is a connection between the two families," the spokesperson for the British couple explained in London. "Your thoughts and prayers are at this time with them," he added. The McCanns had already sent messages of solidarity and support to the gypsy girl's family, and had even printed posters with the faces of the two little girls and the following legend: Do not forget us .
https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20080309/los-mccann-envian-sus-condolencias-a-la-familia-de-la-nina-de-huelva-41537
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2018, 04:16:39 AM
Yes well there was problems at the time of writing this article

http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/02/fury-over-kate-and-gerry-mccann-using-photograph-of-missing-mari-luz-cortes/

"The father of five-year old Mari Luz Cortes, who disappeared in January, said he had not given the couple permission to use his daughter’s picture in 17,400 A3-size prints distributed across Spain and Portugal yesterday."

I was surprised at the number of posters printed up.  The easy thing is to print them but what do you do with them then.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 08:09:56 AM
I am objecting to the misuse of the English language in misdirection and misinformation.
What would have been wrong with saying it's only two hours away and near enough on the same road.

proximity
/prɒkˈsɪmɪti/
noun
noun: proximity
    nearness in space, time, or relationship.

Judge for yourself; is 200km near in space? and is two hours near in time?

Mr Mitchell also once said about a run, K & G are running for the Madeleine Fund and other charities.

To quote a very clever chap...It's all relative
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2018, 09:11:02 AM
To quote a very clever chap...It's all relative

Very similar to linking a disappearance in Preston to one in Glasgow, for example, even though the details were quite different.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 10:03:23 AM
Very similar to linking a disappearance in Preston to one in Glasgow, for example, even though the details were quite different.

It's a matter of opinion to believe  the two cases may be linked... A, proper police investigation would look at all possibilities ...Preston to Glasgow is 300 km
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2018, 10:49:25 AM
It's a matter of opinion to believe  the two cases may be linked... A, proper police investigation would look at all possibilities ...Preston to Glasgow is 300 km

The two children differed in age and colouring. One was alleged to have been taken from her bed, the other from the street. One was on holiday, the other in familiar surroundings. One was English, the other Spanish/Gypsy The parents were quite different. I wonder what the similarities were?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
The two children differed in age and colouring. One was alleged to have been taken from her bed, the other from the street. One was on holiday, the other in familiar surroundings. One was English, the other Spanish/Gypsy The parents were quite different. I wonder what the similarities were?

As I said... A competent investigation would look at it... Nothing should be ignored
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2018, 11:30:30 AM
The two children differed in age and colouring. One was alleged to have been taken from her bed, the other from the street. One was on holiday, the other in familiar surroundings. One was English, the other Spanish/Gypsy The parents were quite different. I wonder what the similarities were?
Some of us think Madeleine was out on the street too.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2018, 11:46:26 AM
The two children differed in age and colouring. One was alleged to have been taken from her bed, the other from the street. One was on holiday, the other in familiar surroundings. One was English, the other Spanish/Gypsy The parents were quite different. I wonder what the similarities were?

They were both on the Iberian Peninsula.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2018, 12:42:15 PM
They were both on the Iberian Peninsula.

The outcomes were different too.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 12:47:12 PM
The outcomes were different too.

Not necessarily unless you know what happened to Maddie...then theres Joanna
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 26, 2018, 01:06:51 PM
Not necessarily unless you know what happened to Maddie...then theres Joanna

It appears that Mari Luz Cortes was taken by a local man from the village where she lived and would have known Mari. I can't see that man being local to Praia Da Luz as well Davel.  If it was another local man from PDL then the cases are not linked.

From the Anorak link

The arrested man is a former neighbour of Mari Luz’s family and lived less than 100 yards from her parents Juan Jose and Irene on the route the youngster would have taken as she returned from a local sweet shop.

He had already been quizzed by police before his arrest yesterday after arousing the suspicion of locals by leaving Huelva with his wife the day after Mari Luz disappeared…
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 01:15:52 PM
It appears that Mari Luz Cortes was taken by a local man from the village where she lived and would have known Mari. I can't see that man being local to Praia Da Luz as well Davel.  If it was another local man from PDL then the cases are not linked.

From the Anorak link

The arrested man is a former neighbour of Mari Luz’s family and lived less than 100 yards from her parents Juan Jose and Irene on the route the youngster would have taken as she returned from a local sweet shop.

He had already been quizzed by police before his arrest yesterday after arousing the suspicion of locals by leaving Huelva with his wife the day after Mari Luz disappeared…


Was Clarence aware of this when he made his statement
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2018, 02:42:42 PM
The two children differed in age and colouring. One was alleged to have been taken from her bed, the other from the street. One was on holiday, the other in familiar surroundings. One was English, the other Spanish/Gypsy The parents were quite different. I wonder what the similarities were?
They were both very young girls.  To a paedophile with a predlictition for very young girls the rest of the stuff you mention is pretty irrelevant IMO.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 03:09:10 PM
The outcomes were different too.

But that was not known for quite some time ... in the interim the families were living in hope.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 03:28:38 PM
Yes well there was problems at the time of writing this article

http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/02/fury-over-kate-and-gerry-mccann-using-photograph-of-missing-mari-luz-cortes/

"The father of five-year old Mari Luz Cortes, who disappeared in January, said he had not given the couple permission to use his daughter’s picture in 17,400 A3-size prints distributed across Spain and Portugal yesterday."

I was surprised at the number of posters printed up.  The easy thing is to print them but what do you do with them then.

There were also posters printed on behalf of Madeleine McCann ~ Mari Luz Cortes ~ and Yeremi Vargas showing pictures of all three missing children as well as the ones printed showing only Madeleine and Mari Luz.

The McCanns were publicising all three missing children.

They have met a lot of opposition throughout the time they have been campaigning on Madeleine's behalf and in my opinion it indicates there is someone out there who just doesn't want her to be found and who thinks nothing of causing as much disruption to their efforts as possible.

(http://www.n-tv.pt/files/2018/01/1108521_A101-12054119_WEB.jpg)
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2018, 05:11:14 PM
There were also posters printed on behalf of Madeleine McCann ~ Mari Luz Cortes ~ and Yeremi Vargas showing pictures of all three missing children as well as the ones printed showing only Madeleine and Mari Luz.

The McCanns were publicising all three missing children.

They have met a lot of opposition throughout the time they have been campaigning on Madeleine's behalf and in my opinion it indicates there is someone out there who just doesn't want her to be found and who thinks nothing of causing as much disruption to their efforts as possible.

(http://www.n-tv.pt/files/2018/01/1108521_A101-12054119_WEB.jpg)



How anyone could deface the poster of a missing child is utterly beyond my comprehension.
No matter their feelings about her parents, it was in my opinion a despicable act.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2018, 08:11:47 PM
I had noticed that name "Yeremi Vargas" before but had not read up on it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7397767.stm
This sentence really brings home the problem

""I called him in for lunch and he nodded and said he'd be there in a moment," she says.

"I remember it like it was yesterday. I remember exactly what he was wearing. Five minutes - it couldn't have been more than five minutes, I put my head round the door and he was gone.""
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2018, 08:16:01 PM


How anyone could deface the poster of a missing child is utterly beyond my comprehension.
No matter their feelings about her parents, it was in my opinion a despicable act.

That's because you believe she was abducted. Just suppose she wasn't and the posters were some kind of a ploy? How despicable would that be?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2018, 08:20:21 PM
That's because you believe she was abducted. Just suppose she wasn't and the posters were some kind of a ploy? How despicable would that be?
If there was any evidence maybe it would be justified, but not just on suspicion.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
That's because you believe she was abducted. Just suppose she wasn't and the posters were some kind of a ploy? How despicable would that be?

So you think this disgusting  action is acceptable
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2018, 08:36:30 PM
That's because you believe she was abducted. Just suppose she wasn't and the posters were some kind of a ploy? How despicable would that be?

You may wish to excuse the despicable behaviour of defacing  a child's face by suggesting that some had the right to do so because they may have believed the " posters were some kind of ploy", however I would question the integrity and morals of anyone who would choose to make such a protest.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2018, 08:44:48 PM
That's because you believe she was abducted. Just suppose she wasn't and the posters were some kind of a ploy? How despicable would that be?
You think in such a scenario it would be acceptable to throw paint over the picture of a missing innocent child?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 26, 2018, 08:48:21 PM
You may wish to excuse the despicable behaviour of defacing  a child's face by suggesting that some had the right to do so because they may have believed the " posters were some kind of ploy", however I would question the integrity and morals of anyone who would choose to make such a protest.

I haven't had my livelyhood ruined, lost my job, and had the reputation of my village dragged through the mud so I can't answer.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 08:52:34 PM


How anyone could deface the poster of a missing child is utterly beyond my comprehension.
No matter their feelings about her parents, it was in my opinion a despicable act.

I didn't know very much about Mari Luz's tragically short life or the alleged controversy regarding the
"missing" poster campaign.

So I thought it best to return to source in the Spanish newspapers of the time.

Mari Luz's father does not strike me as the type of person to be walked over ... galvanised by her disappearance, he took a leaf out of Kate and Gerry's book and raised money to search for her as well as later to campaign against the glitch in Spanish law which had allowed her murderer his freedom to assault Mari Luz.

Having become politically active he made his own enemies perhaps (inclusion in nasty blogs etc) ... so maybe we have a case of two birds in a propaganda war here??

If the story of the disagreement is a fact ... it didn't make much of an impression on Spanish MSM and if it did I couldn't find it.
Which raised the question in my mind about the type and nature of the propaganda projected against Madeleine's parents some of which seems to feature the use or misuse of Madeleine's posters.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2018, 09:03:57 PM
You may wish to excuse the despicable behaviour of defacing  a child's face by suggesting that some had the right to do so because they may have believed the " posters were some kind of ploy", however I would question the integrity and morals of anyone who would choose to make such a protest.

Disgusting to throw paint over a missing childs face

And even worse to obliterate the Telephone number to ring if you had seen her or had clues.



Someone was obviously very keen to prevent Madeleine being found
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2018, 09:12:39 PM
I haven't had my livelyhood ruined, lost my job, and had the reputation of my village dragged through the mud so I can't answer.

None of those have happened to me either but there is no way that I would ever deface a photo of any child.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 09:17:01 PM
I haven't had my livelyhood ruined, lost my job, and had the reputation of my village dragged through the mud so I can't answer.

Who had their livelyhood ruined... Luz must have done very well out of the hundreds of journalist visiting... Many employees would  have been on seasonal contracts....
Could you give cites for your claim
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2018, 09:20:22 PM
A few years ago I met and talked extensively with someone who knew a great deal about the Mari Luz case.  He printed off a large number of photos IIRC, but certainly not the number mentioned in above posts.

 

The family and searchers unanimously thought that it had nothing to do with the Madeleine Case.

They were convinced that the man who was charged was responsible.  He was a neighbour of the Cortes family and had a history
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 26, 2018, 09:44:14 PM
Who had their livelyhood ruined... Luz must have done very well out of the hundreds of journalist visiting... Many employees would  have been on seasonal contracts....
Could you give cites for your claim


Whatever happened that night, it wounded Luz’s reputation as a quiet, family-friendly resort. It had a “very negative” effect, said Mr Mata: for two years after her disappearance, the number of tourists “noticeably decreased”. “People lost their jobs because of this. A lot of shops and restaurants closed down. It had a huge influence on the real estate market

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/03/just-had-enough-ten-years-praia-da-luz-remembers-night-madeleine/
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 26, 2018, 09:44:50 PM
I had noticed that name "Yeremi Vargas" before but had not read up on it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7397767.stm
This sentence really brings home the problem

""I called him in for lunch and he nodded and said he'd be there in a moment," she says.

"I remember it like it was yesterday. I remember exactly what he was wearing. Five minutes - it couldn't have been more than five minutes, I put my head round the door and he was gone.""
Yeremi vanished from Gran Canaraia just before Madeleine and I well remember pinning up Missing Madeleine posters alongside Yeremis poster, whilst hoidaying in Tenerife.  Lovley face he had.  Do hope that he is found.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2018, 10:30:35 PM

Whatever happened that night, it wounded Luz’s reputation as a quiet, family-friendly resort. It had a “very negative” effect, said Mr Mata: for two years after her disappearance, the number of tourists “noticeably decreased”. “People lost their jobs because of this. A lot of shops and restaurants closed down. It had a huge influence on the real estate market

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/03/just-had-enough-ten-years-praia-da-luz-remembers-night-madeleine/

Wasn't there something about a global economic crisis beginning sometime in 2008?  I seem to recall it had quite a devastating effect as people worldwide lost homes, jobs, businesses ... am I wrong, and that only happened in Luz?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 26, 2018, 10:54:09 PM
Wasn't there something about a global economic crisis beginning sometime in 2008?  I seem to recall it had quite a devastating effect as people worldwide lost homes, jobs, businesses ... am I wrong, and that only happened in Luz?

From the same link.

Mr Mata, who is now president of the village council, said residents were initially sympathetic towards the McCanns. “In the beginning, people were very friendly and everybody tried to help,” he said. “But then it turned into a negative thing for the village. People think we helped so much and our lives were so disturbed by this and even today we don’t know what happened.”   

The global crash would have hurt Praia Da Luz but the Madeleine disappearance would have exacerbated it immensely as it lost it's family friendly image in one night, all IMO.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2018, 10:55:53 PM
Wan't there something about a global economic crisis beginning sometime in 2008? I seem to recall it had quite a devastating effect as people worldwide lost homes, jobs, businesses ... am I wrong, and that only happened in Luz?

2007 if you want to be picky.
Caused in the main by types who liked to use verbose flash terms to flim flam the public.
"Invest in the sub-prime market". To us ill educated types that was "lending a shedful of ackers to someone who did not stand a hope in hell of ever repaying it". Smooth move;better off sticking it on single numbers at roulette of betting on dogs.
The plus side was those of us in work received ample reward even if somewhat pulled out.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2018, 11:00:51 PM
You may wish to excuse the despicable behaviour of defacing  a child's face by suggesting that some had the right to do so because they may have believed the " posters were some kind of ploy", however I would question the integrity and morals of anyone who would choose to make such a protest.

Does this high minded stance extend to the defiling of hoardings in general or just this particular one?
It could be worse. I have "done jobs" in 21st century in places where a hoarding would be used for target practice pretty well as soon as it was erected.
Hoardings have been a target in UK since I was a boy.
What's new?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 11:02:17 PM
From the same link.

Mr Mata, who is now president of the village council, said residents were initially sympathetic towards the McCanns. “In the beginning, people were very friendly and everybody tried to help,” he said. “But then it turned into a negative thing for the village. People think we helped so much and our lives were so disturbed by this and even today we don’t know what happened.”   

The global crash would have hurt Praia Da Luz but the Madeleine disappearance would have exacerbated it immensely as it lost it's family friendly image in one night, all IMO.

Maddie and her family lost far more
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 26, 2018, 11:07:54 PM
Maddie and her family lost far more

Theirs was self inflicted. Their negligence has caused widespread suffering on an innocent village and possibly even an entire country IMO.

I have every care and respect for Madeleine and the twins. They too were innocent in all this.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 26, 2018, 11:11:56 PM
Theirs was self inflicted. Their negligence has caused widespread suffering on an innocent village and possibly even an entire country IMO.

I have every care and respect for Madeleine and the twins. They too were innocent in all this.

I don't see it as self inflicted at all..
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Erngath on October 26, 2018, 11:14:50 PM
Does this high minded stance extend to the defiling of hoardings in general or just this particular one?
It could be worse. I have "done jobs" in 21st century in places where a hoarding would be used for target practice pretty well as soon as it was erected.
Hoardings have been a target in UK since I was a boy.
What's new?


No my " high minded stance" is actually extended to not only defilng a poster depicting the face of a missing little girl.but to all acts of vandalism.
Fortunately I haven't seen many hoardings being used for "target practice".
 I find it particularly loathsome for any child's image to be vandalised in such a manner.
I'm surprised you do not!
 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 26, 2018, 11:35:37 PM

No my " high minded stance" is actually extended to not only defilng a poster depicting the face of a missing little girl.but to all acts of vandalism.
Fortunately I haven't seen many hoardings being used for "target practice".
 I find it particularly loathsome for any child's image to be vandalised in such a manner.
I'm surprised you do not!
Anyone who cannot see the difference between vandalizing, say, a wonderbra advert hoarding and one featuring the face of a little girl who may have been abducted (an act of vandalism which also deliberately obscured the phone line set up to receive information on her possible whereabouts) is beyond help IMO.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 12:31:53 AM
Mari Luz's family seem to have had a very well organised campaign going on her behalf and seem to have already had suspicion about who had taken her ... suspicion which within a few weeks was justified.

I can see that if they had an objection to Madeleine and Mari Luz being on a joint poster there are many possible reasons for that all valid and understandable. Particularly if there had been a breakdown of communication and it had come as a surprise to them.

There is so little comment (none that I can see on MSM) that it must have been nipped in the bud and the situation amicably resolved.
Just as a matter of interest ... are there any images of the poster from the time?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 02:12:16 AM
Ten thousand onubenses cry "freedom" for Mari Luz
From the balcony of the Town Hall they read a manifesto and the mother of the child let out a dove - Juan José Cortés led the Madrid rally

RAQUEL RENDÓN
January 23, 2008 - 00: 00h
(http://www.huelvainformacion.es/resources/images/0000027901.jpg)
The demonstration yesterday is unprecedented in the history of Huelva, at least not with such solidarity. More than 10,000 people took to the streets to request that the girl who had disappeared ten days ago in El Torrejón, Mari Luz Cortés, to rejoin her family.
_____________________________________________

Some girls on a stage, who wore t-shirts with the photo of Mari Luz, released three white doves to ask with each of them both the release of Mari Luz Cortés and Yeremi Vargas and Madeleine McCann.

https://www.huelvainformacion.es/huelva/onubenses-claman-libertad-Mari-Luz_0_116089100.html


I don't think Mari Luz's family needed any help from anyone when it came to garnering publicity for their cause and mobilising people.

I believe their skills were perfected enough to enable her father to be instrumental in having Spanish law changed when he campaigned on ~ driven as a result of her death to save other children from harm.

The families of Madeleine and Yeremi had sent words of comfort when Mari Luz went missing and despite their fresh pain they returned the compliment with the release of a dove for at that time, each missing child.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Carana on October 27, 2018, 06:49:12 AM
A sizeable asteroid passing by at 200 km would be very very close indeed.

Another one hard to believe is this "DAILY STAR: “MADDIE COPS PROBE LINK TO SNATCH GIRL”

“Police in Portugal were last night investigating whether the fiend who snatched a five-year-old girl in Spain also took Madeleine McCann. Guilhermino Encarnacao, a key member of the Maddie squad, was drafted in to join the hunt for little Mari Lui Cortes” – Not to be confused with Mari Luz Cortes"
http://www.anorak.co.uk/179483/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-mari-luz-cortes-maddy-2-and-gerry-mccann-writes.html

Were there two missing girls "Mari Lui Cortes" and "Mari Luz Cortes"?

No, Rob - the Star probably misspelled her name. Anorak pokes fun at contradictions, wild assertions and the lack of fact-checking in tabloids.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Carana on October 27, 2018, 07:00:22 AM

Whatever happened that night, it wounded Luz’s reputation as a quiet, family-friendly resort. It had a “very negative” effect, said Mr Mata: for two years after her disappearance, the number of tourists “noticeably decreased”. “People lost their jobs because of this. A lot of shops and restaurants closed down. It had a huge influence on the real estate market

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/03/just-had-enough-ten-years-praia-da-luz-remembers-night-madeleine/

How much did the 2007-2008 financial crisis contribute to a relative lack of UK visitors? Or perhaps the McCanns triggered that as well?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2018, 01:14:29 PM

No my " high minded stance" is actually extended to not only defilng a poster depicting the face of a missing little girl.but to all acts of vandalism.
Fortunately I haven't seen many hoardings being used for "target practice".
 I find it particularly loathsome for any child's image to be vandalised in such a manner.
I'm surprised you do not!

I do not recall articulating that as my opinion. Please show where I did.

The message I was conveying quite clearly was that acts of vandalism on hoardings have been carried out for many years possibly generations. It happens, but it remains a quantum leap to attribute them to reasons of prejudice unless you know who did it, then stick the thumbscrews on to find out why.  Otherwise you are merely attributing it to groups and reasons that suit your purpose. As many of these acts of vandalism are perpetrated by children anyway you could scarcely be too harsh on them could you? Well not if you wish to maintain the higher moral ground.
If you have not seen hoardings used for target practice you must be very young and not particularly well travelled.

Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 03:18:43 PM
How much did the 2007-2008 financial crisis contribute to a relative lack of UK visitors? Or perhaps the McCanns triggered that as well?

Or perhaps the financial crisis' effects were exacerbated by the widespread amount of negative publicity that the village of Praia Da Luz received for at least 18 months following Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2018, 03:27:23 PM
Or perhaps the financial crisis' effects were exacerbated by the widespread amount of negative publicity that the village of Praia Da Luz received for at least 18 months following Madeleine's disappearance.

It seems you are relying on the testimony of one man in a newspaper article... Not reliable evidence
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 03:37:17 PM
It seems you are relying on the testimony of one man in a newspaper article... Not reliable evidence

Am I davel?   There was a link to a video of the cleaner who lost her job following Madeleine's disappearance and there is a lot more for those who can be bothered to search.   More to the point just what are you and the fellow supporters relying on when you seem to say that the Madeleine case had no effect on Praia Da Luz. Do you have any reliable evidence?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2018, 03:40:12 PM
Am I davel?   There was a link to a video of the cleaner who lost her job following Madeleine's disappearance and there is a lot more for those who can be bothered to search.   More to the point just what are you and the fellow supporters relying on when you seem to say that the Madeleine case had no effect on Praia Da Luz. Do you have any reliable evidence?

No reliable evidence either way... The work was seasonal so jobs would have been temporary... Do you have a cite for the cleaner. 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 27, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
No reliable evidence either way... The work was seasonal so jobs would have been temporary... Do you have a cite for the cleaner.
So Vitor dos Santos, Head of Accommodation, 18 years at the OC, was made permanently redundant because his job was 'seasonal'?

Silvia Batista?

Her husband?

You are spreading misinformation.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2018, 05:53:53 PM
So Vitor dos Santos, Head of Accommodation, 18 years at the OC, was made permanently redundant because his job was 'seasonal'?

Silvia Batista?

Her husband?

You are spreading misinformation.

Provide evidence to support your claim... Otherwise it's gossip
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 06:34:46 PM
Provide evidence to support your claim... Otherwise it's gossip

I see you haven't share anything about all being well, in a financial sense in Praia Da Luz following Madeleine's disappearance.

How about this to show that all was NOT well.

The holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann disappearance has launched a legal action against its insurers to recover lost earnings.

Mark Warner says holidaymakers stayed away from its Praia da Luz resort in Portugal because of the huge media coverage of the disappearance of Madeleine, then aged three, almost two years ago.

The firm filed the writ in the high court seeking compensation from AIG, the big US insurance company, which has had to be bailed out by the US government.

Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort

Not all of the writ was concerning Praia Da Luz but some was. So there was economic loss in the village thanks to Madeleine going missing.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 27, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
I see you haven't share anything about all being well, in a financial sense in Praia Da Luz following Madeleine's disappearance.

How about this to show that all was NOT well.

The holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann disappearance has launched a legal action against its insurers to recover lost earnings.

Mark Warner says holidaymakers stayed away from its Praia da Luz resort in Portugal because of the huge media coverage of the disappearance of Madeleine, then aged three, almost two years ago.

The firm filed the writ in the high court seeking compensation from AIG, the big US insurance company, which has had to be bailed out by the US government.

Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort

Not all of the writ was concerning Praia Da Luz but some was. So there was economic loss in the village thanks to Madeleine going missing.

 is unclear how far the company's profits were hit by the affair. Its latest accounts show that it made a loss of £2.8m in the year up to October 2007, on a turnover of £46m. It blamed the loss in part to Madeleine's disappearance, saying: "The results for the year reflect the difficult trading conditions experienced by certain parts of the tour operating industry."

This is from the same article... It also says business was bouyant in the summer of 2007


Could you provide a cite that the writ covered losses in PDL...apart from the OC
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2018, 07:01:12 PM
I do not recall articulating that as my opinion. Please show where I did.

The message I was conveying quite clearly was that acts of vandalism on hoardings have been carried out for many years possibly generations. It happens, but it remains a quantum leap to attribute them to reasons of prejudice unless you know who did it, then stick the thumbscrews on to find out why.  Otherwise you are merely attributing it to groups and reasons that suit your purpose. As many of these acts of vandalism are perpetrated by children anyway you could scarcely be too harsh on them could you? Well not if you wish to maintain the higher moral ground.
If you have not seen hoardings used for target practice you must be very young and not particularly well travelled.

Am i remembering correctly?

Didn't Luz, past member on here, publicly brag about defacing the posters?

Expensive large bus posters attacked, posters painted over and torn up


There was absolute outrage at his actions on here at the time



That, Alice was not the work of children, it was too thorough and well organised
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
Am I davel?   There was a link to a video of the cleaner who lost her job following Madeleine's disappearance and there is a lot more for those who can be bothered to search.   More to the point just what are you and the fellow supporters relying on when you seem to say that the Madeleine case had no effect on Praia Da Luz. Do you have any reliable evidence?

At the end of the holiday season a good many of the seasonal workers would have lost their jobs.

Same as at any holiday resort and especially so with the deep recession of 2007 - 2008.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2018, 07:07:20 PM
Am i remembering correctly?

Didn't Luz, past member on here, publicly brag about defacing the posters?

Expensive large bus posters attacked, posters painted over and torn up


There was absolute outrage at his actions on here at the time



That, Alice was not the work of children, it was too thorough and well organised

Do you seeriously believe a bunch of 15 year olds cannot be organised and thorough?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 07:18:12 PM
is unclear how far the company's profits were hit by the affair. Its latest accounts show that it made a loss of £2.8m in the year up to October 2007, on a turnover of £46m. It blamed the loss in part to Madeleine's disappearance, saying: "The results for the year reflect the difficult trading conditions experienced by certain parts of the tour operating industry."

This is from the same article... It also says business was bouyant in the summer of 2007


Could you provide a cite that the writ covered losses in PDL...apart from the OC

Why would the writ cover other losses not incurred by Mark Warner.    They would not be able to claim for losses not covered by their insurance policy.

David Hopkins, the managing director, said at the time: “Our security is terribly robust.” But a company spokesman acknowledged many parents would stay away until the investigation was over.

While some critics focused on security, others questioned why parents Gerry and Kate McCann had chosen not to use a babysitter and instead left their three children in an apartment at the resort while they had dinner nearby, checking them every 30 minutes.

A company spokesman said at the time: “It is a matter of public record that Mark Warner’s bookings to Portugal were affected by events.”


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-holiday-firm-pulls-4915169
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 07:18:46 PM
I see you haven't share anything about all being well, in a financial sense in Praia Da Luz following Madeleine's disappearance.

How about this to show that all was NOT well.

The holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann disappearance has launched a legal action against its insurers to recover lost earnings.

Mark Warner says holidaymakers stayed away from its Praia da Luz resort in Portugal because of the huge media coverage of the disappearance of Madeleine, then aged three, almost two years ago.

The firm filed the writ in the high court seeking compensation from AIG, the big US insurance company, which has had to be bailed out by the US government.

Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort

Not all of the writ was concerning Praia Da Luz but some was. So there was economic loss in the village thanks to Madeleine going missing.

I tend to judge a locale using a variety of factors one of which is graffiti defacement ... in 2014 I would have been singularly unimpressed to find walls and signage so marked leaving a permanent memory of Luz for the sake of a transient occurrence.
Very off putting.

However is this the thread for the discussion of the world economic situation as it affected Luz?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 27, 2018, 07:21:13 PM
I see you haven't share anything about all being well, in a financial sense in Praia Da Luz following Madeleine's disappearance.

How about this to show that all was NOT well.

The holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann disappearance has launched a legal action against its insurers to recover lost earnings.

Mark Warner says holidaymakers stayed away from its Praia da Luz resort in Portugal because of the huge media coverage of the disappearance of Madeleine, then aged three, almost two years ago.

The firm filed the writ in the high court seeking compensation from AIG, the big US insurance company, which has had to be bailed out by the US government.

Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort

Not all of the writ was concerning Praia Da Luz but some was. So there was economic loss in the village thanks to Madeleine going missing.
They put in a claim but did they get paid out?  I have not seen evidence suggesting they were compensated.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 27, 2018, 07:26:30 PM
Do you seeriously believe a bunch of 15 year olds cannot be organised and thorough?

Come on, Alice.

What reason would teenagers have to mutilate all the Madeleine posters IMO?   Noteably not only Madeleines face BUT ALSO the PHONE NUMBER TO CONTACT with information

No, imo, it was organised by a cetain group, who for some reason wanted it to be forgotten that an abduction had happened.

I wonder why ?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 07:54:34 PM
I tend to judge a locale using a variety of factors one of which is graffiti defacement ... in 2014 I would have been singularly unimpressed to find walls and signage so marked leaving a permanent memory of Luz for the sake of a transient occurrence.
Very off putting.

However is this the thread for the discussion of the world economic situation as it affected Luz?

No but it is not about the posters that were defaced in Praia Da Luz either. Perhaps the thread is fluid and covering more topics than the OP statement covered. It seems to happen here regularly.

On the posters that were defaced, I cannot understand what the McCanns hoped to gain by putting them up, as anyone in the village would have known about Madeleine anyway and it would just make those people uncomfortable to see her face everywhere. All IMO.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 08:18:07 PM
No but it is not about the posters that were defaced in Praia Da Luz either. Perhaps the thread is fluid and covering more topics than the OP statement covered. It seems to happen here regularly.

On the posters that were defaced, I cannot understand what the McCanns hoped to gain by putting them up, as anyone in the village would have known about Madeleine anyway and it would just make those people uncomfortable to see her face everywhere. All IMO.

In my opinion numbering amongst people who might have felt "uncomfortable" at publicising a missing child in the place she disappeared from are perpetrators or those who are covering for perpetrators.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2018, 08:38:17 PM
In my opinion numbering amongst people who might have felt "uncomfortable" at publicising a missing child in the place she disappeared from are perpetrators or those who are covering for perpetrators.

Well, of course. Those who bore the brunt of the unprecedented media storm, those who saw their village described as unsafe, those who lost their jobs must have been quite happy to see 'the circus' carrying on regardless.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 27, 2018, 08:42:30 PM
In my opinion numbering amongst people who might have felt "uncomfortable" at publicising a missing child in the place she disappeared from are perpetrators or those who are covering for perpetrators.

I would imagine that any perpetrators would probably not feel uncomfortable on seeing billboards as they would believe that they are home free as Scotland Yard and the current PJ investigation haven't got anywhere IMO.

But Brietta what about the innocent local shop and pub keepers and their workers who's livelihoods rely on tourism in the village. Any thoughts for them and how they would feel?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Angelo222 on October 27, 2018, 08:49:51 PM
Come on, Alice.

What reason would teenagers have to mutilate all the Madeleine posters IMO?   Noteably not only Madeleines face BUT ALSO the PHONE NUMBER TO CONTACT with information

No, imo, it was organised by a cetain group, who for some reason wanted it to be forgotten that an abduction had happened.

I wonder why ?

I don't believe it was teenagers who did that. IMO it was a message to foreigners to butt out of Portuguese affairs.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Carana on October 27, 2018, 09:02:41 PM
I see you haven't share anything about all being well, in a financial sense in Praia Da Luz following Madeleine's disappearance.

How about this to show that all was NOT well.

The holiday company at the centre of the Madeleine McCann disappearance has launched a legal action against its insurers to recover lost earnings.

Mark Warner says holidaymakers stayed away from its Praia da Luz resort in Portugal because of the huge media coverage of the disappearance of Madeleine, then aged three, almost two years ago.

The firm filed the writ in the high court seeking compensation from AIG, the big US insurance company, which has had to be bailed out by the US government.

Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/apr/04/madeleine-mcann-disappearance-holiday-resort

Not all of the writ was concerning Praia Da Luz but some was. So there was economic loss in the village thanks to Madeleine going missing.

"Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", ]normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim."

I remember looking into  that at the time, but I don't remember what the result of that claim was, if any.

Since that happened, a little restaurant that I often popped into (not in Portugal) was vandalised. The owners were able to claim against insurance for repairs, which took ages, but not against the salaries that still had to be paid or loss of earnings.

I wondered later if that type of coverage was of a similar nature to what the OC was seeking, but I didn't check that out any further.

Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 09:41:56 PM
Well, of course. Those who bore the brunt of the unprecedented media storm, those who saw their village described as unsafe, those who lost their jobs must have been quite happy to see 'the circus' carrying on regardless.

"The Circus" concerned part of an investigation on behalf of a missing child.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 27, 2018, 10:14:50 PM
"The Circus" concerned part of an investigation on behalf of a missing child.
Nevertheless it did have all the elements of a Circus.  &^^&*
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 27, 2018, 10:36:05 PM
Nevertheless it did have all the elements of a Circus.  &^^&*
Elephants?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2018, 11:08:59 PM
Elephants?

Didn't see them ... but I saw one or two clowns being interviewed.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Carana on October 28, 2018, 07:02:27 AM
I would imagine that any perpetrators would probably not feel uncomfortable on seeing billboards as they would believe that they are home free as Scotland Yard and the current PJ investigation haven't got anywhere IMO.

But Brietta what about the innocent local shop and pub keepers and their workers who's livelihoods rely on tourism in the village. Any thoughts for them and how they would feel?


From the same Guardian article (April  2009):

"It is unclear how far the company's profits were hit by the affair. Its latest accounts show that it made a loss of £2.8m in the year up to October 2007, on a turnover of £46m. It blamed the loss in part to Madeleine's disappearance, saying: "The results for the year reflect the difficult trading conditions experienced by certain parts of the tour operating industry."

Last year, Hopkins told Travel Trade Gazette that the number of parents choosing to go to its resort in Portugal declined immediately after Madeleine's disappearance, but business was "very buoyant" later in the summer of 2007."


Although I find it understandable that families with young children may have cancelled in the months following her disappearance (and even couples without kids being  put off by the media circus),  I don't quite see the connection between her disappearance and the "difficult trading conditions experienced by certain parts of the tour operating industry".

The fact that in  Jan 07, the Eur/GBP rate was around 0.65, but by Dec 2008 it was hovering close to par, IMO seems a more logical explanation of the "difficult trading conditions" for the industry beyond the immediate aftermath. https://www.dailyfx.com/eur-gbp

Secondly, even in the aftermath, while the OC may well have suffered from cancellations, the media swarm would have brought considerable custom to the village and environs.

I therefore question the extent to which a longer-term downturn in  bookings (and therefore jobs) across the industry could  be attributed to  the "interrupted business" as a result of her disappearance, which was seemingly the object of the insurance claim, as opposed to the lousy exchange rate from a UK perspective.

In any case, although it created resentment, I doubt that defacing a poster of a missing little girl, including the number to ring, would have made the village appear particularly welcoming either.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2018, 07:18:30 AM
Didn't see them ... but I saw one or two clowns being interviewed.

Clowns certainly featured in this case in my opinion. Take a certain Charlotte Pennington, for example. In September 2007 she told the Daily Mail;

 “I was in the apartment less than five minutes after they found that Madeleine had gone.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

She was contradicting her official statement to the PJ;

She did not enter the residence in question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

And her colleague's statement;

The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the crêche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm

“There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns’ friends.

Miss Pennington explained that she spent the rest of the evening searching for Madeleine, before finally going to bed at 4am.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

Interesting remark about the children, but it can't be taken seriously, can it?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 08:48:26 AM
Clowns certainly featured in this case in my opinion. Take a certain Charlotte Pennington, for example. In September 2007 she told the Daily Mail;

 “I was in the apartment less than five minutes after they found that Madeleine had gone.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

She was contradicting her official statement to the PJ;

She did not enter the residence in question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

And her colleague's statement;

The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the crêche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm

“There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns’ friends.

Miss Pennington explained that she spent the rest of the evening searching for Madeleine, before finally going to bed at 4am.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

Interesting remark about the children, but it can't be taken seriously, can it?

You are taking a verbatim statement if here, and comparing it to the twice translated non verbatim statement in the files... The fact that they don't MST, h is evidence that the translated statements are not accurate
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 08:52:59 AM
You are taking a verbatim statement if here, and comparing it to the twice translated non verbatim statement in the files... The fact that they don't MST, h is evidence that the translated statements are not accurate

And you you said a few days ago that they were fairly accurate Davel. Which is it?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 09:01:37 AM
Clowns certainly featured in this case in my opinion. Take a certain Charlotte Pennington, for example. In September 2007 she told the Daily Mail;

 “I was in the apartment less than five minutes after they found that Madeleine had gone.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

She was contradicting her official statement to the PJ;

She did not enter the residence in question;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

And her colleague's statement;

The witness immediately helped in the searches, whilst her colleague Charlotte remained at the crêche, looking after the other children that were there and waiting for the arrival of the last parents, after which she also began searching.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm

“There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns’ friends.

Miss Pennington explained that she spent the rest of the evening searching for Madeleine, before finally going to bed at 4am.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483715/Kate-McCann-DID-scream-Theyve-taken-claims-new-nanny-witness.html

Interesting remark about the children, but it can't be taken seriously, can it?
Have you considered the possibility (highly remote I know, given the Daily Mail’s reputation as an arbiter of factual reporting) that the article writer embellished certain parts of Pennington ‘s account, and it is they and not her who are the clowns in this example?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: sadie on October 28, 2018, 09:02:18 AM
And you you said a few days ago that they were fairly accurate Davel. Which is it?
It seems Davel is correct, with fairly being the operative word
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2018, 09:05:09 AM
"Although the writ has yet to be made public, the Guardian understands that the claim will centre around losses from "interrupted business", ]normally used to cover businesses that can no longer trade because of flooding or loss of power supplies. AIG is expected to contest the claim."

I remember looking into  that at the time, but I don't remember what the result of that claim was, if any.

Since that happened, a little restaurant that I often popped into (not in Portugal) was vandalised. The owners were able to claim against insurance for repairs, which took ages, but not against the salaries that still had to be paid or loss of earnings.

I wondered later if that type of coverage was of a similar nature to what the OC was seeking, but I didn't check that out any further.

In the light of the financial downturn I don't think they had a leg to stand on as far as business losses are concerned.

Snip
Bank of Portugal issues financial alert as families start to feel the credit pinch

DEBT ALERT


Families need to brace themselves for the tough economic times that lie ahead, the Bank of Portugal predicts. In its 2006 Financial Stability Report, the Bank forecasts that thousands of families who previously enjoyed relative financial stability will now struggle to repay their debts. This warning follows a decision last week by the European
Central Bank to raise interest rates by 25 basis points to a figure of four percent. According to analysts, the ECB rate is set to climb to a figure closer to five percent before the year is out with consensus being that a rate of at least 4.5 percent will be in force within the next five months.
https://archive.org/stream/The_Portugal_News-912/The_Portugal_News-912_djvu.txt

I don't think they had a leg to stand on if the writing was on the wall in 2006.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2018, 09:33:15 AM
Have you considered the possibility (highly remote I know, given the Daily Mail’s reputation as an arbiter of factual reporting) that the article writer embellished certain parts of Pennington ‘s account, and it is they and not her who are the clowns in this example?

I'm happy to include the Daily Mail as one of the clowns, but not to exclude the nanny who has repeatedly appeared in the press with her version of events. I tend to accept direct quotes as provenance. If you want to believe Ms Pennington you will need to explain where the twins were five minutes after the alarm was raised.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2018, 11:37:14 AM
I don't believe it was teenagers who did that. IMO it was a message to foreigners to butt out of Portuguese affairs.

Or someone having the hump about flyposting and/or having a kin great hoarding erected on their land without permission.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 12:43:44 PM
I'm happy to include the Daily Mail as one of the clowns, but not to exclude the nanny who has repeatedly appeared in the press with her version of events. I tend to accept direct quotes as provenance. If you want to believe Ms Pennington you will need to explain where the twins were five minutes after the alarm was raised.
No I won't. I don't need to do anything.  If you want to refer to has a clown, you'd better be sure that she made the whole thing up. 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 12:44:33 PM
Or someone having the hump about flyposting and/or having a kin great hoarding erected on their land without permission.
Have you a cite for the hoarding being illegally erected?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 01:35:06 PM
I'm happy to include the Daily Mail as one of the clowns, but not to exclude the nanny who has repeatedly appeared in the press with her version of events. I tend to accept direct quotes as provenance. If you want to believe Ms Pennington you will need to explain where the twins were five minutes after the alarm was raised.

You cannot accept any quote as being  accurate unless you have seen it as a live recording... The written word including newspaper supposed direct quotes cannot be relied on
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2018, 05:28:37 PM
No I won't. I don't need to do anything.  If you want to refer to has a clown, you'd better be sure that she made the whole thing up.

If she was telling the truth others were lying through their teeth. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 05:51:06 PM
If she was telling the truth others were lying through their teeth. Take your pick.

How about your reasoning is very simplistic
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 05:58:34 PM
If she was telling the truth others were lying through their teeth. Take your pick.
Like I said if you want to refer to her as a clown you better be sure she made the whole thing up.  How sure are you?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
With regard to Charlotte Pennington ‘s statement perhaps someone can explain why the two translations are at variance, with one saying she did not enter the Apartment, and the other not mentioning this detail?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2018, 06:27:03 PM
With regard to Charlotte Pennington ‘s statement perhaps someone can explain why the two translations are at variance, with one saying she did not enter the Apartment, and the other not mentioning this detail?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

It is a queer one and certainly gives one food for thought.  We know already that Robert Murat had helped the PJ with translation is the first translation the original (imo the English is very good) or the one he must have transcribed to Portuguese and translated back?

The second one by Anna Esse? could well have been round the houses and back again having been translated from French taken from the original English to Portuguese? or Portuguese to French? or whatever? 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2018, 06:31:59 PM
Have you a cite for the hoarding being illegally erected?

Did I say it was?
You need to read my post in conjunction with Angelo's then you may have the full appreciation.
End of game.
Play ping pong on your own.
Whatever happened to "you are not talking to me again"?
Does this mean we are now friends again.
If I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2018, 06:34:00 PM
With regard to Charlotte Pennington ‘s statement perhaps someone can explain why the two translations are at variance, with one saying she did not enter the Apartment, and the other not mentioning this detail?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

These are amateurs translating. The information is present in the original Portuguese.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 06:40:35 PM
These are amateurs translating. The information is present in the original Portuguese.

And there were amateurs translating the english statements into the portuguese you are reading....LOL
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 28, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
Did I say it was?
You need to read my post in conjunction with Angelo's then you may have the full appreciation.
End of game.
Play ping pong on your own.
Whatever happened to "you are not talking to me again"?
Does this mean we are now friends again.
If I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it.
You said the billboard was possibly defaced by someone annoyed at having a billboard illegally erected on their land.  I see you were just mischievously speculating and have no basis whatsoever for this suggestion.   I believe it is right to forgive one’s abusers and that is what I have chosen to do with you, although next time you abuse me on this forum I may have a change of heart.  We will just have to wait and see, won’t we? 8(>((
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
And there were amateurs translating the english statements into the portuguese you are reading....LOL

In my opinion Murat, as a native English speaker, was less likely to misunderstand what the witnesses were saying.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 08:33:19 PM
In my opinion Murat, as a native English speaker, was less likely to misunderstand what the witnesses were saying.

This was discussed some time ago...and as i recall...his english was good but his portuguese questionable.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 28, 2018, 08:37:49 PM
And you you said a few days ago that they were fairly accurate Davel. Which is it?

you still dont understand...the translations of the portuguese files are fairly accurate....we can check them. we cannot check the statemnts of the tapas or pennington.. because we dont have the original statements
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 06:12:38 AM
This was discussed some time ago...and as i recall...his english was good but his portuguese questionable.

Well if you prefer to believe what Charlotte Pennington told the newspapers, feel free.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 06:40:35 AM
you still dont understand...the translations of the portuguese files are fairly accurate....we can check them. we cannot check the statemnts of the tapas or pennington.. because we dont have the original statements

But we do Davel

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 07:44:46 AM
But we do Davel

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CHARLOTTE-PENNINGTON.htm

No we don't... We have a non verbatim account of her statement written by Murat
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 08:10:19 AM
No we don't... We have a non verbatim account of her statement written by Murat

If I sign something I'm ratifying it. It's then officially valid. All those statements were signed therefore they are valid pieces of evidence whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 08:16:59 AM
If I sign something I'm ratifying it. It's then officially valid. All those statements were signed therefore they are valid pieces of evidence whether you like it or not.
They are pieces of evidence... If you think they are, accurate you are misguided imo... It doesn't really bother me as it highlights the inadequacy of the PJ
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 08:48:13 AM
They are pieces of evidence... If you think they are, accurate you are misguided imo... It doesn't really bother me as, bit highlights the inadequacy of the PJ

If they are inaccurate the fault lies with those who signed them, no-one else. Illiterate people in the UK are in exactly the same position as the witnesses in Portugal were.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 29, 2018, 09:01:31 AM
They are pieces of evidence... If you think they are, accurate you are misguided imo... It doesn't really bother me as it highlights the inadequacy of the PJ
Wrong re the PJ.

A mobile phone was stolen from a family member a while back.

One of the steps involved was required to be discussed in Portuguese.  The fact that the officers spoke English was irrelevant, it had to be conducted in Portuguese.

Hence a translator was required.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 09:14:54 AM
If they are inaccurate the fault lies with those who signed them, no-one else. Illiterate people in the UK are in exactly the same position as the witnesses in Portugal were.

No... The fault lies with the PJ... The statements should have been recorded
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 09:47:55 AM
Wrong re the PJ.

A mobile phone was stolen from a family member a while back.

One of the steps involved was required to be discussed in Portuguese.  The fact that the officers spoke English was irrelevant, it had to be conducted in Portuguese.

Hence a translator was required.

It's, s, different scenario... These witness statements could have resulted in a, serious miscarriage of justice
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 09:58:00 AM
No... The fault lies with the PJ... The statements should have been recorded

Should statements taken in the UK be recorded too?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 09:59:13 AM
Should statements taken in the UK be recorded too?

They are, in cases, where suspects do not speak english
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 10:15:01 AM
They are, in cases, where suspects do not speak english

You will, of course, have a cite for that. If true, then those who don't speak English have an advantage over those who speak it but can't read it.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 29, 2018, 10:24:48 AM
No... The fault lies with the PJ... The statements should have been recorded
Unless you can show a legal requirement, in Portugal, in 2007, to record such statements, you are simply misinforming the forum.

Was there such a requirement?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2018, 10:36:51 AM
Unless you can show a legal requirement, in Portugal, in 2007, to record such statements, you are simply misinforming the forum.

Was there such a requirement?

What does the European Court say about it in 2007?  If it says so ... I imagine that would cover Portugal's obligation.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 10:50:50 AM
Unless you can show a legal requirement, in Portugal, in 2007, to record such statements, you are simply misinforming the forum.

Was there such a requirement?

I'm misinforming no one.... The PJs method of recording statements for non Portuguese speakers is woefully inadequate..... .as Sutton pointed out and is a recipe for error
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 29, 2018, 11:39:35 AM
I'm misinforming no one.... The PJs method of recording statements for non Portuguese speakers is woefully inadequate..... .as Sutton pointed out and is a recipe for error
So you have presented your opinion as fact, knowing there was no such requirement?

That's not misinformation.

It's worse.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2018, 12:01:35 PM
I'm misinforming no one.... The PJs method of recording statements for non Portuguese speakers is woefully inadequate..... .as Sutton pointed out and is a recipe for error

It is acceptable in Portugal, which is what matters. The opinions expressed by anyone else are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: barrier on October 29, 2018, 12:13:45 PM
It is acceptable in Portugal, which is what matters. The opinions expressed by anyone else are irrelevant.

Except maybe to the key board warriors who make something out of nothing.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 12:51:17 PM
It is acceptable in Portugal, which is what matters. The opinions expressed by anyone else are irrelevant.

the whole board is mostly opinion...so the whole board is irrelevant...but its a discussion forum and we discuss opinions
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 01:08:01 PM
No we don't... We have a non verbatim account of her statement written by Murat

Davel you originally said we didn't have copies of the rogatory statements so couldn't be certain they were correct then you said this

you still dont understand...the translations of the portuguese files are fairly accurate....we can check them. we cannot check the statemnts of the tapas or pennington.. because we dont have the original statements


Charlotte Pennington's statement has an original DVD image for you to see. It is in the link I attached.

Now you are changing the goalposts which will therefore make ALL the statements possibly innaccurate in your book, and certainly when it suits you.  All IMO.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 02:58:32 PM
Davel you originally said we didn't have copies of the rogatory statements so couldn't be certain they were correct then you said this

you still dont understand...the translations of the portuguese files are fairly accurate....we can check them. we cannot check the statemnts of the tapas or pennington.. because we dont have the original statements


Charlotte Pennington's statement has an original DVD image for you to see. It is in the link I attached.

Now you are changing the goalposts which will therefore make ALL the statements possibly innaccurate in your book, and certainly when it suits you.  All IMO.

you seem to still misunderstand.......the Rogs are in english...and therefore may be reliable although the source from which they came is not reliable...what we cannot rely on is statements given in english in portugal which we do not have a record of....the amateur tarnslators...Murat for instance...have just given a non verbatim summarry of the stateemnt
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2018, 04:04:57 PM
What does the European Court say about it in 2007?  If it says so ... I imagine that would cover Portugal's obligation.

Something like:
In various Member States not only the prosecution, but also judges and competent courts are charged with seeking both inculpatory and exculpatory evidence. Member States which do not have an adversarial system should be able to maintain their current system provided that it complies with this Directive and with other relevant provisions of Union and international law.

I would imagine.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 04:10:09 PM
Something like:
In various Member States not only the prosecution, but also judges and competent courts are charged with seeking both inculpatory and exculpatory evidence. Member States which do not have an adversarial system should be able to maintain their current system provided that it complies with this Directive and with other relevant provisions of Union and international law.

I would imagine.

so it doesnt address that particular problem.....The ECHR does guarantee the right to a fair trial so being coerced into signing something you dont understand may well be covered there
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2018, 04:12:25 PM
Then on the other hand the discussion needs to be carried on incognisance of [this is UK legislation]:

"When you cannot produce a witness statement as evidence.
A written witness statement is not admissible on its own as evidence at trial if
the defence do not agree with the evidence that has been written within it.
How the statement is used in court
The statement will be read out at the hearing, only if it has been agreed by both the
prosecution and defence. This allows for evidence to be given without having to call
the witness to attend. If there is no agreement, the statement will not be read out in
court.
A witness may refer to specific documents in a statement and these documents or
items of evidence will be ‘produced’ as exhibits in the case. Any document or object
referred to as an exhibit and identified in the statement will be treated as if it has
been produced by the person who made the statement.


It screws up the armchair keyboard tecs but ensures justice works reasonably.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
so it doesnt address that particular problem.....The ECHR does guarantee the right to a fair trial so being coerced into signing something you dont understand may well be covered there

Have you read the entire directive?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 04:27:51 PM
Have you read the entire directive?

i domt need to...the right to a fair trial is guaranteed
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2018, 06:47:19 PM
It is acceptable in Portugal, which is what matters. The opinions expressed by anyone else are irrelevant.
What is the current method of taking statements from foreigners?  It is always difficult to find what historic legislation looked like. 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 06:55:20 PM
What is the current method of taking statements from foreigners?  It is always difficult to find what historic legislation looked like.

Looks like it must be in Portuguese

The submission of evidence is acceptable only in the Portuguese language. There is no right to have the
evidence translated into your language. You can, however, make an application to the court if you need
very important evidence to be translated. The decision is at the discretion of the court, but if the court
accepts, you will not have to pay for it.

https://pt.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/185/Judicial-Assistance-to-arrestees-handout_cleared-Nov2017.pdf

I cannot see the British police agreeing to have witness evidence in Portuguese either to be frank.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 29, 2018, 07:07:59 PM
Looks like it must be in Portuguese

The submission of evidence is acceptable only in the Portuguese language. There is no right to have the
evidence translated into your language. You can, however, make an application to the court if you need
very important evidence to be translated. The decision is at the discretion of the court, but if the court
accepts, you will not have to pay for it.

https://pt.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/185/Judicial-Assistance-to-arrestees-handout_cleared-Nov2017.pdf

I cannot see the British police agreeing to have witness evidence in Portuguese either to be frank.

In the UK the suspects, statement is taken in their own language then translated... In that way there is a, record of what the suspect actually  said
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2018, 07:48:47 PM
Looks like it must be in Portuguese

The submission of evidence is acceptable only in the Portuguese language. There is no right to have the
evidence translated into your language. You can, however, make an application to the court if you need
very important evidence to be translated. The decision is at the discretion of the court, but if the court
accepts, you will not have to pay for it.

https://pt.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/185/Judicial-Assistance-to-arrestees-handout_cleared-Nov2017.pdf

I cannot see the British police agreeing to have witness evidence in Portuguese either to be frank.
What you have covered is the procedure in the court.  In court evidence has to be submitted in Portuguese. 

What is in dispute is how a person who can't speak Portuguese going to give evidence?  How is a non Portuguese witness going to give evidence?

How does the original statement get taken?

In many countries the original statement is taken in the native language of the witness, it is then translated to the language of the country where the Court is.  The idea that there is no record of the original statement in the native language seems to be incorrect in my opinion.  In the McCann case all the steps by the translators seems 100% verbal and only a Portuguese version results.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2018, 12:17:44 PM
What you have covered is the procedure in the court.  In court evidence has to be submitted in Portuguese. 

What is in dispute is how a person who can't speak Portuguese going to give evidence?  How is a non Portuguese witness going to give evidence?

How does the original statement get taken?

In many countries the original statement is taken in the native language of the witness, it is then translated to the language of the country where the Court is.  The idea that there is no record of the original statement in the native language seems to be incorrect in my opinion.  In the McCann case all the steps by the translators seems 100% verbal and only a Portuguese version results.

The fact that many months down the line the PJ were asking Kate ... "16   What does “we let her down” mean?" in my opinion shows the enormous chasm between what was said and the meaning of it.

I believe the investigators thought it was a medical term ... one could have thought that if so it might have been pertinent to find out exactly what it did mean prior to the arguida interview.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2018, 05:38:26 PM
The fact that many months down the line the PJ were asking Kate ... "16   What does “we let her down” mean?" in my opinion shows the enormous chasm between what was said and the meaning of it.

I believe the investigators thought it was a medical term ... one could have thought that if so it might have been pertinent to find out exactly what it did mean prior to the arguida interview.
In veterinary terms we'd say "put her down"  in other words euthanasia.  Whereas a mother might "put her down" meaning put the baby girl to bed.
There is certainly more than one possible meaning for a set of words.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2018, 05:47:11 PM
In veterinary terms we'd say "put her down"  in other words euthanasia.  Whereas a mother might "put her down" meaning put the baby girl to bed.
There is certainly more than one possible meaning for a set of words.

Usually the meaning of a phrase is clear when used in context.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2018, 06:02:22 PM
Usually the meaning of a phrase is clear when used in context.
True but if a  vet came to me and said "I put my daughter down"  I would be scratching my head.
So if Kate said we let her down, referring to Madeleine, what did she mean?

It is unlikely to be a confession as in "we let her down into a deep well where no one will ever find her".

More likely a cry of despair "we let her down by not being here".
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on October 30, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
True but if a  vet came to me and said "I put my daughter down"  I would be scratching my head.
So if Kate said we let her down, referring to Madeleine, what did she mean?

It is unlikely to be a confession as in "we let her down into a deep well where no one will ever find her".

More likely a cry of despair "we let her down by not being here".

Precisely
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Eleanor on October 30, 2018, 06:26:16 PM
True but if a  vet came to me and said "I put my daughter down"  I would be scratching my head.
So if Kate said we let her down, referring to Madeleine, what did she mean?

It is unlikely to be a confession as in "we let her down into a deep well where no one will ever find her".

More likely a cry of despair "we let her down by not being here".

Exactement.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2018, 07:25:53 PM
The fact that many months down the line the PJ were asking Kate ... "16   What does “we let her down” mean?" in my opinion shows the enormous chasm between what was said and the meaning of it.

I believe the investigators thought it was a medical term ... one could have thought that if so it might have been pertinent to find out exactly what it did mean prior to the arguida interview.

It was something Kate thought at first, but she was later reassured (by a barrister no less!) that her behaviour was well within the bounds of reasonable parenting.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 30, 2018, 07:29:14 PM
It was something Kate thought at first, but she was later reassured (by a barrister no less!) that her behaviour was well within the bounds of reasonable parenting.

its not something I would do but its something I have done...i think it probably is within the bounds of responsible parenting...with all those children left in chalets at Butlins...none seem to have come to any harm
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 30, 2018, 08:38:50 PM
I'm misinforming no one.... The PJs method of recording statements for non Portuguese speakers is woefully inadequate..... .as Sutton pointed out and is a recipe for error

Don't blame them for Gerry not knowing which door he used to check.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 30, 2018, 09:27:02 PM
What is the current method of taking statements from foreigners?  It is always difficult to find what historic legislation looked like.

The critical issue is how the statement may be used after it has been taken. It may only be in accordance with the relevant laws and court procedures. [Refer CCP].
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2018, 10:00:44 PM
The critical issue is how the statement may be used after it has been taken. It may only be in accordance with the relevant laws and court procedures. [Refer CCP].
The statements taken from the majority Portuguese speaking witnesses were essentially OK IMO, it would only be those taken from non-Portuguese speaking persons that would have issues if it ever came to a court hearing.

But you would think all statements should have been taken from the beginning to a standard that they could be used "in accordance with the relevant laws and court procedures".

They ended up with the crazy situation of one of the translators becoming an arguido. 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 30, 2018, 10:48:37 PM
The statements taken from the majority Portuguese speaking witnesses were essentially OK IMO, it would only be those taken from non-Portuguese speaking persons that would have issues if it ever came to a court hearing.

But you would think all statements should have been taken from the beginning to a standard that they could be used "in accordance with the relevant laws and court procedures".

They ended up with the crazy situation of one of the translators becoming an arguido.

Try looking at the English rules for witness statements, it is not so dissimilar.
Once you have grasped how the process works you will begin to understand how irrelevant some of this argument has become.

When you can produce a witness statement as evidence in court
To be admissible in court, evidence must be relevant to a fact which has to be proved, or disproved.
Nothing proves itself, and every fact, and document relied upon in court must be proved by admissible evidence.
When you cannot produce a witness statement as evidence
A written witness statement is not admissible on its own as evidence at trial if the defence do not agree with the evidence that has been written within it.

How the statement is used in court
The statement will be read out at the hearing, only if it has been agreed by both the
prosecution and defence. This allows for evidence to be given without having to call
the witness to attend. If there is no agreement, the statement will not be read out in court.
A witness may refer to specific documents in a statement and these documents or items of evidence will be ‘produced’ as exhibits in the case. Any document or object referred to as anexhibit and identified in the statement will be treated as if it has been produced by the person who made the statement.


For what happens in Portugal see CCP 78/87 Articles 128 onwards.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 07:14:43 AM
Try looking at the English rules for witness statements, it is not so dissimilar.
Once you have grasped how the process works you will begin to understand how irrelevant some of this argument has become.

When you can produce a witness statement as evidence in court
To be admissible in court, evidence must be relevant to a fact which has to be proved, or disproved.
Nothing proves itself, and every fact, and document relied upon in court must be proved by admissible evidence.
When you cannot produce a witness statement as evidence
A written witness statement is not admissible on its own as evidence at trial if the defence do not agree with the evidence that has been written within it.

How the statement is used in court
The statement will be read out at the hearing, only if it has been agreed by both the
prosecution and defence. This allows for evidence to be given without having to call
the witness to attend. If there is no agreement, the statement will not be read out in court.
A witness may refer to specific documents in a statement and these documents or items of evidence will be ‘produced’ as exhibits in the case. Any document or object referred to as anexhibit and identified in the statement will be treated as if it has been produced by the person who made the statement.


For what happens in Portugal see CCP 78/87 Articles 128 onwards.

From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 10:27:01 AM
From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters
I think Alice is saying it doesn't matter how the statements are taken as they are unlikely to have contributed to the case.
I disagree, for if the witness was to give evidence in court the statement is often the source of the questions so it needs to be accurate.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 31, 2018, 12:39:31 PM
From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters

You are quoting how the statement is taken.
I was stating how it may used which is the only relevant criterion.
It matters not how it was taken given it complied with the procedures required by the specific country.
Are you suggesting The Home Office do not know waht they are on about in this context?
Definition of an ‘admissible witness statement’
To be admissible (allowed) in court section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1967
states for a witness statement to be used as evidence in any criminal proceeding, other than committal proceedings, it must:

be a formal written document of a person

be a set of facts relating to a certain event, or events

be signed by the person who makes it, to confirm that the contents of the
document are true, this is known as a statement of truth

have had a copy served on the other parties before the trial
If all of the above apply, the witness does not always need to attend the trial to give oral evidence. But once they have made a written statement they may be called on to attend court and give their evidence in person. The jury do not see witness statements so the evidence contained in them will either be read out by counsel or be given oraly by the person who has given the statement

It sure screws things up for armchair tecs but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
You are quoting how the statement is taken.
I was stating how it may used which is the only relevant criterion.
It matters not how it was taken given it complied with the procedures required by the specific country.
Are you suggesting The Home Office do not know waht they are on about in this context?
Definition of an ‘admissible witness statement’
To be admissible (allowed) in court section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1967
states for a witness statement to be used as evidence in any criminal proceeding, other than committal proceedings, it must:

be a formal written document of a person

be a set of facts relating to a certain event, or events

be signed by the person who makes it, to confirm that the contents of the
document are true, this is known as a statement of truth

have had a copy served on the other parties before the trial
If all of the above apply, the witness does not always need to attend the trial to give oral evidence. But once they have made a written statement they may be called on to attend court and give their evidence in person. The jury do not see witness statements so the evidence contained in them will either be read out by counsel or be given oraly by the person who has given the statement

It sure screws things up for armchair tecs but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries.

The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: G-Unit on October 31, 2018, 01:23:26 PM
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

Some supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on October 31, 2018, 01:26:36 PM
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

In your opinion of course Davel.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 03:59:02 PM
Some supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.

I would say most if not all here did
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 31, 2018, 05:22:55 PM
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

You appear to have ducked the point.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 31, 2018, 05:24:35 PM
I think Alice is saying it doesn't matter how the statements are taken as they are unlikely to have contributed to the case.
I disagree, for if the witness was to give evidence in court the statement is often the source of the questions so it needs to be accurate.

I am not saying that at all.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 31, 2018, 05:49:43 PM
I would say most if not all here did

So most supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 06:04:58 PM
"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries"  what does that mean?  Are the processes similar or different in many countries?

Google "dissimilar"
"dissimilar

adjective
not the same; different.
"a collection of dissimilar nations lacking overall homogeneity"

"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar [not the same] in many countries"

Not not is a double negative becomes positive i.e. "not not the same" becomes "the same".

"but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"

Alice is this what you meant? ".... but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"
 

Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 06:11:21 PM
You appear to have ducked the point.
I found it a good point though.    What we object to is the statements in Portuguese being signed off as being correct by non-Portuguese speaking witnesses.  That is the unnatural point. 
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 06:34:16 PM
So most supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.?

Do you have a cite not all understood... From the posts I've seen everyone understood it perfectly
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 31, 2018, 06:58:53 PM
I found it a good point though.    What we object to is the statements in Portuguese being signed off as being correct by non-Portuguese speaking witnesses.  That is the unnatural point.

That is just tough, it is part of the process. By your logic anyone who cannot speak the language of the proceedings would be precluded from making a statement. You seem to be looking for Reds under the bed.

If the statement is not signed by the person making it then it is inadmissible in any court proceedings.


Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 07:08:52 PM
So most supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.?

I would say most sceptics don't understand  the significance of the archiving despatch... As there was no evidence of any crime by the McCann's then logically... IMO.. That is evidence but not proof of innocence
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 31, 2018, 07:19:16 PM
"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries"  what does that mean?  Are the processes similar or different in many countries?

Google "dissimilar"
"dissimilar

adjective
not the same; different.
"a collection of dissimilar nations lacking overall homogeneity"

"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar [not the same] in many countries"

Not not is a double negative becomes positive i.e. "not not the same" becomes "the same".

"but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"

Alice is this what you meant? ".... but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"

It is a standard English construction meaning: "more or less similar".
I would have normally just said "similar" but we might have ended up with half a dozen pages of pedantry so I elected to use "not dissimilar" to avoid that. Pious hopes on my part, on that score it would seem.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 08:19:11 PM
It is a standard English construction meaning: "more or less similar".
I would have normally just said "similar" but we might have ended up with half a dozen pages of pedantry so I elected to use "not dissimilar" to avoid that. Pious hopes on my part, on that score it would seem.
OK I see it now "not dissimilar" is equivalent to "more or less similar".  Thanks.
" ....  but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"  becomes
".....  but in the real world the processes are "more or less similar" in many countries"

The processes are not exactly the same but not dissimilar. 

Google to the rescue!
"Dissimilar is the opposite of similar. You've probably heard that you should not use double negatives. Well with dissimilar, it's okay to say something like, "Art is not dissimilar to music in that it is a creative activity. Here, "not dissimilar" means similar."
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 09:44:45 PM
I feel "Perhaps you don't understand what it says?" is an ad hom argument even though it is a question.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 31, 2018, 09:49:58 PM
Do you have a cite not all understood... From the posts I've seen everyone understood it perfectly

It was what you said?
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2018, 09:54:29 PM
It was what you said?

Sceptics think supporters don't understand it... I would say supporters understand it perfectly..
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2018, 10:02:59 PM

Put it this way I am trying to understand it and apply the rule that arguments should not be "ad hominem".

"ad hominem

adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton""

The question "Perhaps you don't understand what it says?" is questioning a person's understanding and their potential to understand.
IMO it is definitely "directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining".





Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: John on November 01, 2018, 12:40:14 PM
Put it this way I am trying to understand it and apply the rule that arguments should not be "ad hominem".

"ad hominem

adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton""

The question "Perhaps you don't understand what it says?" is questioning a person's understanding and their potential to understand.
IMO it is definitely "directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining".

Absolutely Rob.  Criticism of other member's opinions and calling into question their understanding of the case is something which should be avoided. Every member has the equal right to air their genuinely held opinion or belief. If challenges are made then those challenges should address the facts and not the member's ability.

Constantly claiming that other posters are wrong without providing any facts to support such an assertion is tiresome.

Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Sunny on November 01, 2018, 01:06:58 PM
Absolutely Rob.  Criticism of other member's opinions and calling into question their understanding of the case is something which should be avoided. Every member has the equal right to air their genuinely held opinion or belief. If challenges are made then those challenges should address the facts and not the member's ability.

Constantly claiming that other posters are wrong without providing any facts to support such an assertion is tiresome.

Well said John.  I for one am sick of this type of posting.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: The General on November 01, 2018, 01:35:38 PM
I haven't been here long, but Christopher Biggins, there's an inordinate amount of squabbling over semantics and minutiae. All this circular, irrelevant back biting is utterly futile and is counter productive.

...and no I can't provide a cite for that.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Eleanor on November 01, 2018, 02:15:06 PM
I haven't been here long, but Christopher Biggins, there's an inordinate amount of squabbling over semantics and minutiae. All this circular, irrelevant back biting is utterly futile and is counter productive.

...and no I can't provide a cite for that.

You don't have to.  Most of us are fed up with it.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2018, 04:54:34 PM
I haven't been here long, but Christopher Biggins, there's an inordinate amount of squabbling over semantics and minutiae. All this circular, irrelevant back biting is utterly futile and is counter productive.

...and no I can't provide a cite for that.

It is my opinion that being counter productive is exactly what is intended in many instances.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2018, 06:53:42 PM
Put it this way I am trying to understand it and apply the rule that arguments should not be "ad hominem".

"ad hominem

adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton""

The question "Perhaps you don't understand what it says?" is questioning a person's understanding and their potential to understand.
IMO it is definitely "directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining".


(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"

When I say IMO sceptics don't understand  the evidence then that is directed at the position they hold... Not the person... And is therefore not ad hom

If it's my opinion.... Am I not allowed to express my opinion... Im happy to justfy my opinion.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2018, 06:59:29 PM

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"

When I say IMO sceptics don't understand  the evidence then that is directed at the position they hold... Not the person... And is therefore not ad hom

If it's my opinion.... Am I not allowed to express my opinion... Im happy to justfy my opinion.
I think this debate is in response to a post made by SIL (now deleted) but I thought I'd let SIL know why I deleted the post IMO it was an "ad hom" argument.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Eleanor on November 01, 2018, 07:00:49 PM
I think this debate is in response to a post made by SIL (now deleted) but I thought I'd let SIL why I deleted the post IMO it was an "ad hom" argument.

You are right.  It was.  I agreed with you.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2018, 07:08:11 PM
You are right.  It was.  I agreed with you.
I still allow criticism of the subject.  You could say "I think your understanding of the issue is incorrect", but not "I think you are incapable of understanding the issue".
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2018, 07:15:14 PM
I think this debate is in response to a post made by SIL (now deleted) but I thought I'd let SIL know why I deleted the post IMO it was an "ad hom" argument.

Makes sense
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 01, 2018, 10:32:46 PM
I still allow criticism of the subject.  You could say "I think your understanding of the issue is incorrect", but not "I think you are incapable of understanding the issue".

Well explained.
Title: Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
Post by: Carana on November 05, 2018, 11:06:54 PM
Put it this way I am trying to understand it and apply the rule that arguments should not be "ad hominem".

"ad hominem

adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"an ad hominem response"
2.
relating to or associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton""

The question "Perhaps you don't understand what it says?" is questioning a person's understanding and their potential to understand.
IMO it is definitely "directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining".

Kick the ball, not the player.