UK Justice Forum

UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:35:28 PM

Title: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:35:28 PM
The question is, "Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?"

Personally I believe it would be devisive and achieve nothing in respect of any withdrawal agreement.

We had our opportunity to vote in 2016 and a majority voted to leave the EU, it is now the job of the Prime Minister to deliver that result any way she can.

A second referendum or peoples vote would simply muddy the waters even more. If remainers won by a small margin it could be argued that we should have the best of three, it undermines referendums totally.

Those who seek a further vote simply don't understand the issues IMO.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:45:47 PM
I don't support a second referendum, not because I think it is undemocratic (I don't) but like John I think it will just prolong the agony and provoke even greaterd divisiveness.  Leavers have to be given exactly what they want (no deal, apparently) and the rest of us simply have to suck it up and hope for the best. 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 02:04:42 PM
I don't support a second referendum, not because I think it is undemocratic (I don't) but like John I think it will just prolong the agony and provoke even greaterd divisiveness.  Leavers have to be given exactly what they want (no deal, apparently) and the rest of us simply have to suck it up and hope for the best.

In most divorces the couple separate before the agreement and final settlement, I suggest Brexit should be the same.  Get out now on 29th March and do the deals afterwards.  It is on this basis that the EU is now planning ahead in order to keep disruption to a minimum.  I suggest the UK get on with it too!
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 03:37:22 PM
In most divorces the couple separate before the agreement and final settlement, I suggest Brexit should be the same.  Get out now on 29th March and do the deals afterwards.  It is on this basis that the EU is now planning ahead in order to keep disruption to a minimum.  I suggest the UK get on with it too!

There's no choice as this part of Brexit was only ever about the divorce settlement, despite what certain politicians said (Liam Fox?) about trade deals being negotiated even before the official D-Day.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:38:36 PM
In most divorces the couple separate before the agreement and final settlement, I suggest Brexit should be the same.  Get out now on 29th March and do the deals afterwards.  It is on this basis that the EU is now planning ahead in order to keep disruption to a minimum.  I suggest the UK get on with it too!
Surely the separation process began with the Leave vote in the Referendum, triggering Article 50 was the Decree Nisi, and 29th March the Decree Absolut?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 03:44:22 PM
I've listened to arguments for and against a 2nd referendum. The only aspects that make me hesitate is whether enough people have actually understood the implications, plus whether a no-deal is on the table or not.

IMO a no-deal would be a disaster.

I don't see how people could vote on 3 choices as it would make a clear majority less likely and I'm not convinced that the "just get on with it" or the Dunkirk romantic brigades would take the time to study what the implications are.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 03:45:43 PM
Surely the separation process began with the Leave vote in the Referendum, triggering Article 50 was the Decree Nisi, and 29th March the Decree Absolut?
Loth as I am ever to agree with you VS (but I do).  8)><(

However I don't think it will happen. Parliament won't let it.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 03:55:54 PM
In most divorces the couple separate before the agreement and final settlement, I suggest Brexit should be the same.  Get out now on 29th March and do the deals afterwards.  It is on this basis that the EU is now planning ahead in order to keep disruption to a minimum.  I suggest the UK get on with it too!

AFAIK, a divorce settlement is about the legal and financial issues (who gets custody of the kids and the dog, what happens to joint assets and who gets to keep the family albums). Agreements about whether or not to show up to Aunt Mabel's 95th birthday bash tend be sorted out later, don't they?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:58:45 PM
Loth as I am ever to agree with you VS (but I do).  8)><(

However I don't think it will happen. Parliament won't let it.
Ahh, common ground.  You'll be inviting me over for tea next. 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 04:47:09 PM
I've listened to arguments for and against a 2nd referendum. The only aspects that make me hesitate is whether enough people have actually understood the implications, plus whether a no-deal is on the table or not.

IMO a no-deal would be a disaster.

I don't see how people could vote on 3 choices as it would make a clear majority less likely and I'm not convinced that the "just get on with it" or the Dunkirk romantic brigades would take the time to study what the implications are.

They said not joining the Euro would be a disaster, it wasn't, it was a saving grace.  All this scare mongering amounts to very little in the end.  There will be winners and losers inevitably...that's life.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2019, 07:13:06 PM
The question is, "Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?"

Personally I believe it would be devisive and achieve nothing in respect of any withdrawal agreement.

We had our opportunity to vote in 2016 and a majority voted to leave the EU, it is now the job of the Prime Minister to deliver that result any way she can.

A second referendum or peoples vote would simply muddy the waters even more. If remainers won by a small margin it could be argued that we should have the best of three, it undermines referendums totally.

Those who seek a further vote simply don't understand the issues IMO.

We voted on it once with the result that the majority want the UK to leave the EU.
I think they are mad and that my generation cocked the vote up. Any one over the age of 55 should not have been allowed to vote on this matter (imo); nevertheless that's where we are at. Simple enough.
Why should we have another referendum at the behest of a load of politicians who seem incapable of understanding the result of the first one?.
If you are a cynic, or Henning Wehn, you would say "they told you a pack of lies that you believed first time round; second time round they will tell another load of lies you will believe and you will vote the same way again".

Tune in when the dust dies down. Meantime May will remain PM as no one else has the stomach for the job.

A few years down the track I see Sajid and Chukka being leaders of the two main parties.
Well Sajid seems to be making the first moves in that direction.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 08:28:11 PM
Theresa May has survived the vote of no confidence with 325 votes for 306 against. She won with a percentage of just under 50.4% of the votes.  Perhaps we should ask the MPs to vote again, a sort of MPs "peoples vote". @)(++(* 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-live-no-confidence-motion-13863046
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 10:31:55 AM
I agree that another vote by the people would just lead to more arguments and accusations. The result was unexpected but it was a result. The ones preventing the implementation of the result are our politicians. That may be their prerogative, but they are making a laughing stock of our country and of themselves.

Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2019, 11:31:07 AM
I agree that another vote by the people would just lead to more arguments and accusations. The result was unexpected but it was a result. The ones preventing the implementation of the result are our politicians. That may be their prerogative, but they are making a laughing stock of our country and of themselves.

I'd hope that more people have woken up to what the various options entail, in which case more people could make a better informed decision this time.

As May's deal is off the table (and I very much doubt that the EU would agree to anything beyond a cosmetic tweak of it), that leaves no-deal (which is sheer madness IMO) or no-Brexit.

An issue with a new referendum would be the need for an extension, which would require sound reasons (and no, Boris et al., the EU is already fed up with Brexit).

The only other option would be to revoke Article 50, and it has recently been established that that can be done unilaterally. The problem with that is that the pro-Brexit factions won't be happy.

If only Cameron and co. had done their homework BEFORE calling for the referendum, it might not have been put on the table in the first place.

According to some articles I've read, the whole idea wasn't about improving the UK, but about shutting up the right-wing of the Conservative party.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 01:07:13 PM
I'd hope that more people have woken up to what the various options entail, in which case more people could make a better informed decision this time.

As May's deal is off the table (and I very much doubt that the EU would agree to anything beyond a cosmetic tweak of it), that leaves no-deal (which is sheer madness IMO) or no-Brexit.

An issue with a new referendum would be the need for an extension, which would require sound reasons (and no, Boris et al., the EU is already fed up with Brexit).

The only other option would be to revoke Article 50, and it has recently been established that that can be done unilaterally. The problem with that is that the pro-Brexit factions won't be happy.

If only Cameron and co. had done their homework BEFORE calling for the referendum, it might not have been put on the table in the first place.

According to some articles I've read, the whole idea wasn't about improving the UK, but about shutting up the right-wing of the Conservative party.

I believe you are partially correct Carana however the fact that millions were voting UKIP probably had something to do with it as UKIP were corroding the Conservative vote as I remember.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 01:34:19 PM
I'd hope that more people have woken up to what the various options entail, in which case more people could make a better informed decision this time.

As May's deal is off the table (and I very much doubt that the EU would agree to anything beyond a cosmetic tweak of it), that leaves no-deal (which is sheer madness IMO) or no-Brexit.

An issue with a new referendum would be the need for an extension, which would require sound reasons (and no, Boris et al., the EU is already fed up with Brexit).

The only other option would be to revoke Article 50, and it has recently been established that that can be done unilaterally. The problem with that is that the pro-Brexit factions won't be happy.

If only Cameron and co. had done their homework BEFORE calling for the referendum, it might not have been put on the table in the first place.

According to some articles I've read, the whole idea wasn't about improving the UK, but about shutting up the right-wing of the Conservative party.

Why do people assume that voters will vote differently if only they are given the 'correct' information? It's a matter of opinion which information is 'correct' and there's no reason to believe that voters want to change their minds.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 17, 2019, 07:21:33 PM
Why do people assume that voters will vote differently if only they are given the 'correct' information? It's a matter of opinion which information is 'correct' and there's no reason to believe that voters want to change their minds.
If that’s the case why are most leavers against a second referendum and most remainers for it?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 08:39:06 PM
If that’s the case why are most leavers against a second referendum and most remainers for it?

I didn't vote leave but as I have mentioned I have changed my mind so it may be 17million and one now. However I can understand leavers being annoyed. The referendum was supposed to be once in a lifetime not once a year or so.

I wonder what will happen if this "peoples vote" points to leave again? Best of 5?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 08:53:35 PM
I didn't vote leave but as I have mentioned I have changed my mind so it may be 17million and one now. However I can understand leavers being annoyed. The referendum was supposed to be once in a lifetime not once a year or so.

I wonder what will happen if this "peoples vote" points to leave again? Best of 5?

Those oh so clever poliyicians still think they can convince people to 'get it right'. Their arrogance is breathtaking.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 17, 2019, 09:01:59 PM
I didn't vote leave but as I have mentioned I have changed my mind so it may be 17million and one now. However I can understand leavers being annoyed. The referendum was supposed to be once in a lifetime not once a year or so.

I wonder what will happen if this "peoples vote" points to leave again? Best of 5?
It wouldn’t be a second referendum, it would be a first referendum regarding the type of Brexit people actually want.  G-Unit reckons all leavers want the same thing.  I dispute that.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Erngath on January 17, 2019, 09:13:45 PM
A very good New Year to all.
I voted to remain as did the majority of folk here in Scotland.
I have no faith at all in the Westminster Government.
I can only see this whole debacle leading to a strengthening of the vote for independence.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 08:42:20 AM
I believe you are partially correct Carana however the fact that millions were voting UKIP probably had something to do with it as UKIP were corroding the Conservative vote as I remember.

Sometimes I find it hard to tell the difference between UKIP and the far right wing of the Conservative party. UKIP seems to be more overtly xenophobic and racist, otherwise much of a muchness.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 09:27:53 AM
Sometimes I find it hard to tell the difference between UKIP and the far right wing of the Conservative party. UKIP seems to be more overtly xenophobic and racist, otherwise much of a muchness.

I think a lot of people were voting for Farage rather than for UKIP. Since he left the party it's dead in the water. Farage is poised to return to canpaifning if another referendum is arranged.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 01:21:33 PM
I think a lot of people were voting for Farage rather than for UKIP. Since he left the party it's dead in the water. Farage is poised to return to canpaifning if another referendum is arranged.


Farage in December:
Speaking at a Leave Means Leave rally in London, he “implored” Brexiteers to prepare for another campaign, suggesting he expected a fresh referendum within months.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-nigel-farage-ukip-leave-remain-peoples-vote-final-say-theresa-may-deal-jo-johnson-a8685346.html
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 01:38:55 PM
I despair...

James O’Brien and LBC listeners alike were left in disbelief when this caller said he voted Brexit because he wants Britain to retain the three-pin plug.

Robert from Rochester originally phoned up LBC to rail against the idea of a second referendum.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:52:35 PM
I despair...

James O’Brien and LBC listeners alike were left in disbelief when this caller said he voted Brexit because he wants Britain to retain the three-pin plug.

Robert from Rochester originally phoned up LBC to rail against the idea of a second referendum.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/
Now if the EU had said we have to adopt those two prong thingys by law I probably would have voted leave too.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 09:37:26 AM
Why do people assume that voters will vote differently if only they are given the 'correct' information? It's a matter of opinion which information is 'correct' and there's no reason to believe that voters want to change their minds.

There's no way of knowing how many, but some people voted for Brexit believing that the NHS really would get £350m a week, others were terrified at the idea of millions of Turks suddenly invading the UK as Turkey was presented as about to become a EU member. *

Both of those are about as likely as me becoming the next pope and the politicians responsible have since laughed it off or dodged the question when challenged during interviews.

That doesn't even touch on the brainwashing with half-truths in the (mainly) tabloid media over decades. I know people who still believe Boris's bendy-banana myth.

* Links as I find them... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/18/boris-johnson-falsely-denies-issuing-turkey-warning-in-brexit-campaign
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 09:47:47 AM
There's no way of knowing how many, but some people voted for Brexit believing that the NHS really would get £350m a week, others were terrified at the idea of millions of Turks suddenly invading the UK as Turkey was presented as about to become a EU member.

Both of those are about as likely as me becoming the next pope and the politicians responsible have since laughed it off or dodged the question when challenged during interviews.

That doesn't even touch on the brainwashing with half-truths in the (mainly) tabloid media over decades. I know people who still believe Boris's bendy-banana myth.

I think that human tsunami of "refugees" marching towards Germany having been invited by Merkel may have had some effect...no one imagined that
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 09:50:41 AM
I didn't vote leave but as I have mentioned I have changed my mind so it may be 17million and one now. However I can understand leavers being annoyed. The referendum was supposed to be once in a lifetime not once a year or so.

I wonder what will happen if this "peoples vote" points to leave again? Best of 5?

What makes you tend towards voting Leave now if you had a chance?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 09:54:40 AM
I think that human tsunami of "refugees" marching towards Germany having been invited by Merkel may have had some effect...no one imagined that

One may or may not  agree with Merkel's government's stance on accepting an admittedly large number of refugees fleeing from war.

But what does that have to do with the UK?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
If that’s the case why are most leavers against a second referendum and most remainers for it?

I don't understand why Leavers are wary of a 2nd ref either...

My only concern about one is whether people are better informed now than they were 2 .5 years ago. If they suffer from acute Brexititis or simply believe whatever their favourite politician spouts as gospel to be accurate (à la Trump fan-base) or if no one is keeping an eye on last-minute shenanigans (à la Cambridge Analytica), then the UK could end up falling off the cliff, unless no-deal is taken off the options.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:45:56 AM
I don't understand why Leavers are wary of a 2nd ref either...

My only concern about one is whether people are better informed now than they were 2 .5 years ago. If they suffer from acute Brexititis or simply believe whatever their favourite politician spouts as gospel to be accurate (à la Trump fan-base) or if no one is keeping an eye on last-minute shenanigans (à la Cambridge Analytica), then the UK could end up falling off the cliff, unless no-deal is taken off the options.

I don't care if we leave or remain, but I believe democracy should be respected. The only politician who seems to agree with me is Theresa May.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 10:46:46 AM
One may or may not  agree with Merkel's government's stance on accepting an admittedly large number of refugees fleeing from war.

But what does that have to do with the UK?

Merkel is one of the most powerful people in the EU..... She didn't just welcome large numbers.... But seemed to advocate an open door policy.. Once given asylum do those asylum seekers then have freedom of movement... That's what it has to do with the UK and I think it terrified UK citizens.... It has also encouraged more to Cross the med..
I don't think they were all fleeing war... Do you.... Mostly young single men
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 20, 2019, 10:52:28 AM
Merkel is one of the most powerful people in the EU..... She didn't just welcome large numbers.... But seemed to advocate an open door policy.. Once given asylum do those asylum seekers then have freedom of movement... That's what it has to do with the UK and I think it terrified UK citizens.... It has also encouraged more to Cross the med..
I don't think they were all fleeing war... Do you.... Mostly young single men

I would say that she WAS one of the most powerful people in the EU but since giving in her resignation I imagine she is less important now.

I am under the impression that true asylum seekers were to ask for residency in the first European country they entered.  Which does make me question why we have people in inflatable dinghies trying to cross the channel to get to us.

Of course, with this in mind, Germany is surrounded by other European countries so perhaps she thought they wouldn't get many immigrants.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:31:19 AM
I would say that she WAS one of the most powerful people in the EU but since giving in her resignation I imagine she is less important now.

I am under the impression that true asylum seekers were to ask for residency in the first European country they entered.  Which does make me question why we have people in inflatable dinghies trying to cross the channel to get to us.

Of course, with this in mind, Germany is surrounded by other European countries so perhaps she thought they wouldn't get many immigrants.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

Trying to verify, but the UK may have (perceived) better conditions for refugees, or simply some may be able to prove close family already within the UK.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 12:32:03 PM
I don't care if we leave or remain, but I believe democracy should be respected. The only politician who seems to agree with me is Theresa May.
Why don't you care?  Is it because you won't be around for much longer and so are unlikely to be affected?   Do you really not care how decisions made now will affect the lives of your children and their children? 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 12:34:48 PM
https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

Trying to verify, but the UK may have (perceived) better conditions for refugees, or simply some may be able to prove close family already within the UK.
The number of "asylum seekers" trying to enter Britain is a tiny fraction of those that have entered other countries in Europe.  This latest brouhaha, with Home Secretary having to cancel his holiday to attend the "cross channel crisis" was making a massive mountain out of a tiny molehill IMO.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 01:12:31 PM
The number of "asylum seekers" trying to enter Britain is a tiny fraction of those that have entered other countries in Europe.  This latest brouhaha, with Home Secretary having to cancel his holiday to attend the "cross channel crisis" was making a massive mountain out of a tiny molehill IMO.

Agree. Seems more of a PR exercise than anything else.

A bit of background reading for people of all flavours:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-eu-leaders-fail-again-to-agree-policy/

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 01:13:10 PM
The number of "asylum seekers" trying to enter Britain is a tiny fraction of those that have entered other countries in Europe.  This latest brouhaha, with Home Secretary having to cancel his holiday to attend the "cross channel crisis" was making a massive mountain out of a tiny molehill IMO.

I think we need to maintain and be seen to maintain our borders
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 01:15:15 PM
Agree. Seems more of a PR exercise than anything else.

A bit of background reading for people of all flavours:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-migration-eu-leaders-fail-again-to-agree-policy/

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

Perhaps you think we, should have an open door policy as merkel seemed to advocate
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 01:23:08 PM
I think we need to maintain and be seen to maintain our borders
We do, but we don't need to overreact about perceived threats that aren't really there. 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 01:27:39 PM
Perhaps you think we, should have an open door policy as merkel seemed to advocate
Ironically Brexit may well mean we end up with more "asylum seekers" than whilst we are in the EU, as we will no longer have the Dublin regulation which allows us to return these people to the first European country they registered at.  Also, how vigilant are France going to be about stopping asylum seekers gaining illegal entry to the UK post Brexit?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 01:35:14 PM
Ironically Brexit may well mean we end up with more "asylum seekers" than whilst we are in the EU, as we will no longer have the Dublin regulation which allows us to return these people to the first European country they registered at.  Also, how vigilant are France going to be about stopping asylum seekers gaining illegal entry to the UK post Brexit?

I wonder how many have been returned
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 01:49:17 PM
I wonder how many have been returned
No idea.  I do know that very many cheap (ie: £5) carwash businesses the length and breadth of the country are run by dodgy characters who employ illegal immigrants at below national minimum wage, often actually on a slave labour basis and that Brits seem quite happy to turn a blind eye to this in order to get a cheap carwash.  We are complicit in so many illegal activities in this country when it suits us, and we should really get to grips with criminal gangs who exploit illegal immigrants, asylum seekers etc (in carwashes, brothels, drug distribution or whatever it may be)  before worrying too much about a few dinghys full of Syrians arriving at the White Cliffs of Dover.   We should also look to ourselves to ensure that we are not complicit in funding these criminal gangs, by ensuring w do not take our business to them.  My parents for example who are both hugely pro Brexit and anti immigrant but are also great fans of their local Eastern European dodgy car wash outfit in town at which several "lovely, smiley and polite" Bulgarians valet their car inside and out, top to bottom for half an hour for less than the price of 10 cigarettes.  I think my parents are hypocrites of the highest order, but they don't see it that way.  No, they see these people as happy, happy, happy in their work, and me as a do goody virtue signaller!  LOL.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2019, 02:46:15 PM
No idea.  I do know that very many cheap (ie: £5) carwash businesses the length and breadth of the country are run by dodgy characters who employ illegal immigrants at below national minimum wage, often actually on a slave labour basis and that Brits seem quite happy to turn a blind eye to this in order to get a cheap carwash.  We are complicit in so many illegal activities in this country when it suits us, and we should really get to grips with criminal gangs who exploit illegal immigrants, asylum seekers etc (in carwashes, brothels, drug distribution or whatever it may be)  before worrying too much about a few dinghys full of Syrians arriving at the White Cliffs of Dover.   We should also look to ourselves to ensure that we are not complicit in funding these criminal gangs, by ensuring w do not take our business to them.  My parents for example who are both hugely pro Brexit and anti immigrant but are also great fans of their local Eastern European dodgy car wash outfit in town at which several "lovely, smiley and polite" Bulgarians valet their car inside and out, top to bottom for half an hour for less than the price of 10 cigarettes.  I think my parents are hypocrites of the highest order, but they don't see it that way.  No, they see these people as happy, happy, happy in their work, and me as a do goody virtue signaller!  LOL.

It's not just a few dingys... If it was it wouldnt be a problem...
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 02:53:03 PM
It's not just a few dingys... If it was it wouldnt be a problem...
220 people in November and December, how many dinghys is that?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:08:46 PM
Ironically Brexit may well mean we end up with more "asylum seekers" than whilst we are in the EU, as we will no longer have the Dublin regulation which allows us to return these people to the first European country they registered at.  Also, how vigilant are France going to be about stopping asylum seekers gaining illegal entry to the UK post Brexit?


You are confusing genuine asylum seekers with illegal immigrants.  I understand you and Carana have an agenda, but you are not getting away with closing your eyes to the truths about these illegal immigrants and their agendas.

Very few women are on these boats with token children. This is their ticket. use the children.  In some instances it has been reported that children have been thown overboard to prevent detection. There are scam marriges, forced prostitution of women & men/boys being raped/tortured. The slave trade is alive an well.


How many men do ylou think are in our primary schools and secondary schools who claimed to be children- how many social workers and teachers are being ignored and victimises for highlighting this problem?

So let us sit back eat our cake and drink our tea and call anyone who doesn't love slave traders rascists shall we?

Asylum seekers indeed!

Oh and.... I would ask those who seek to house these 'asylum seekers'  to have them in their homes and sleep in their beds and use their money to 'help' them.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:27:00 PM

You are confusing genuine asylum seekers with illegal immigrants.  I understand you and Carana have an agenda, but you are not getting away with closing your eyes to the truths about these illegal immigrants and their agendas.

Very few women are on these boats with token children. This is their ticket. use the children.  In some instances it has been reported that children have been thown overboard to prevent detection. There are scam marriges, forced prostitution of women & men/boys being raped/tortured. The slave trade is alive an well.


How many men do ylou think are in our primary schools and secondary schools who claimed to be children- how many social workers and teachers are being ignored and victimises for highlighting this problem?

So let us sit back eat our cake and drink our tea and call anyone who doesn't love slave traders rascists shall we?

Asylum seekers indeed!

Oh and.... I would ask those who seek to house these 'asylum seekers'  to have them in their homes and sleep in their beds and use their money to 'help' them.
Why do you always have to be so aggressive and frankly paranoid sounding?  I have no agenda whatsoever, any more than you do anyway.   What exactly are you accusing me of?  Being a lover of illegal immigrants or something?  Did you not notice my use of inverted commas around the phrase “asylum seekers”?   Try not to be so facetious, insulting and childish, we’d get along much better as a result I’m sure. 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:41:42 PM
Why do you always have to be so aggressive and frankly paranoid sounding?  I have no agenda whatsoever, any more than you do anyway.   What exactly are you accusing me of?  Being a lover of illegal immigrants or something?  Did you not notice my use of inverted commas around the phrase “asylum seekers”?   Try not to be so facetious, insulting and childish, we’d get along much better as a result I’m sure.

Name calling?   ^*&&

My agenda is quite clear. I have no time for abuse of any kind directed at anyone.

 I fear for and speak up for the vulnerable in our society.who are mainly women,children, many, and not all, from ethnic backgrounds,  gay/lesbians, those with mental and physical disabilities. Regardless of their income.

These groups lose out because of lack of funds which is being directed at illegal immigrants pretending to be asylum seekers.

These immigrants come in from the EU -who has an open door policy  of which we are members of-just in case you missed that bit. &^^&*
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:51:11 PM
Name calling?   ^*&&

My agenda is quite clear. I have no time for abuse of any kind directed at anyone.

 I fear for and speak up for the vulnerable in our society.who are mainly women,children, many, and not all, from ethnic backgrounds,  gay/lesbians, those with mental and physical disabilities. Regardless of their income.

These groups lose out because of lack of funds which is being directed at illegal immigrants pretending to be asylum seekers.

These immigrants come in from the EU -who has an open door policy  of which we are members of-just in case you missed that bit. &^^&*
I know that there are thousands of “asylum seekers” in Calais who are there desperate to get to Britain but which are currently prevented from doing so.  What will leaving the EU change about that?  We won’t be able to return illegals to the first EU country they registered in once we leave.  How much of our welfare budget is spent on illegal immigrants versus the other groups you mention? 
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 09:24:21 PM
I know that there are thousands of “asylum seekers” in Calais who are there desperate to get to Britain but which are currently prevented from doing so.  What will leaving the EU change about that?  We won’t be able to return illegals to the first EU country they registered in once we leave.  How much of our welfare budget is spent on illegal immigrants versus the other groups you mention?

"I know that there are thousands of “asylum seekers” in Calais who are there desperate to get to Britain"

Why? why here?   Oh don't bother to reply I already know why!  I could give facts and figures but there really is no point.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
"I know that there are thousands of “asylum seekers” in Calais who are there desperate to get to Britain"

Why? why here?   Oh don't bother to reply I already know why!  I could give facts and figures but there really is no point.
I wish I understood what point you were trying to make, put as you don’t see any point in articulating in favour of raging I guess I’ll never know.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 09:37:08 PM
We have had a referendum and the people voted to leave... Parilament has not respected the vote of the people.... What's the point of a second referendum...why should we trust parliament to respect the view of the people
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Sunny on January 25, 2019, 06:36:22 AM
We have had a referendum and the people voted to leave... Parilament has not respected the vote of the people.... What's the point of a second referendum...why should we trust parliament to respect the view of the people

There are remain MPs fighting to remain in the EU when their electorate voted to leave.  Do these people represent us, doesn't seem so IMO.

Wish I had actually voted leave last time.

This is a first Davel. I agree with you, get the kettle on  8)--))
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 09:28:35 AM
I agree too. Parliament may be able to disregard the result of the referendum legally, but it's morally reprehensible. If politicians don't believe in respecting democracy why should the population do so?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 01:25:14 PM
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1088695579293687810

https://twitter.com/RobWetherill1/status/963733154514300928

Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 03:56:55 PM
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1088695579293687810

https://twitter.com/RobWetherill1/status/963733154514300928

Is there a point to these twatters?  so they have an opinion should I be bovvered?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on January 31, 2019, 09:28:10 PM
I agree too. Parliament may be able to disregard the result of the referendum legally, but it's morally reprehensible. If politicians don't believe in respecting democracy why should the population do so?

We live in a representative democracy... Parliament has every right to ignore the referendum
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 09:30:44 PM
We live in a representative democracy... Parliament has every right to ignore the referendum

This, sadly, is probably true.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 09:23:53 AM
We live in a representative democracy... Parliament has every right to ignore the referendum

Legally, yes. Morally? I would say not. They are, after all, 'Honourable' members.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 11:15:07 AM
Legally, yes. Morally? I would say not. They are, after all, 'Honourable' members.
They should do what is best fir the country ...anything else is stupid... Hopefully that's brexit
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 12:06:44 PM
They should do what is best fir the country ...anything else is stupid... Hopefully that's brexit

Do you believe they have a clue what is best for the country?
It doesn't appear to me that they do.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Why do you always have to be so aggressive and frankly paranoid sounding?  I have no agenda whatsoever, any more than you do anyway.   What exactly are you accusing me of?  Being a lover of illegal immigrants or something?  Did you not notice my use of inverted commas around the phrase “asylum seekers”?   Try not to be so facetious, insulting and childish, we’d get along much better as a result I’m sure.

If you want to read my posts in a fashion that suits you, fair enough!  You ask questions then do not like the answer so you jump in with others to cry out and name call.

The very point I make is not in anger or aggresive as you read it. It is with sadness that such situations arise. However, being a realist and having to make real descisions based on facts not on twitter accounts by the good and great is:  This country is not big enough, we do not have the infrastructure in place, the people do not have the heart to be pushed out of  their communities, the country does not have the financial pull to provide homes and education and free health care for millions (trust me there are many countries with starving people-like Africa). This is the real issue. offering a share of bread to those who seek food, but what to you expect to happen when those same people take all the bread? yes-Brexit  or Nazis get hold.

I am accused of being a rascist and a bigot only for explaining situations which I played no part in bringing about.
I readily await the solution from those who claim not to be ignorant of facts, or to face realities as they present themselves.



Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 12:39:45 PM
They should do what is best fir the country ...anything else is stupid... Hopefully that's brexit

They all claim that what they support is best for the country, but they can't all be right. It seems to me that those who think the economy is the most important are willing to compromise on democracy and cultural identity, but these things are very important to others.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 12:48:17 PM
Do you believe they have a clue what is best for the country?
It doesn't appear to me that they do.

I think some do... But many may not... But we elected them
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 12:53:39 PM
They all claim that what they support is best for the country, but they can't all be right. It seems to me that those who think the economy is the most important are willing to compromise on democracy and cultural identity, but these things are very important to others.


Brexit does give  those who believed, ruled us and not served us, a huge shock- make no mistake.
scare mongering from both sides is disgraceful. it does show up the fear and anger of those who have much to lose. The gravy train has all but stopped.

Great Britain is not so great anymore. it has become a soft PC pandering gang of luvvies.

Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 01:51:55 PM

Brexit does give  those who believed, ruled us and not served us, a huge shock- make no mistake.
scare mongering from both sides is disgraceful. it does show up the fear and anger of those who have much to lose. The gravy train has all but stopped.

Great Britain is not so great anymore. it has become a soft PC pandering gang of luvvies.

The first slap in the face was to Labour when Corbyn was elected leader. Then the referendum. Then May's general election. They created a divided angry population and they must face the consequences.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
The first slap in the face was to Labour when Corbyn was elected leader. Then the referendum. Then May's general election. They created a divided angry population and they must face the consequences.

I Agree G.

I predicted civil/unrest/ war in this country 10 years ago in an essay I wrote. After witnessing positive discrimination at play- which in my opinion is just as bad as negative descrimination!

The politicians are running scared as they will lose control.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 01, 2019, 02:49:12 PM
If you want to read my posts in a fashion that suits you, fair enough!  You ask questions then do not like the answer so you jump in with others to cry out and name call.

The very point I make is not in anger or aggresive as you read it. It is with sadness that such situations arise. However, being a realist and having to make real descisions based on facts not on twitter accounts by the good and great is:  This country is not big enough, we do not have the infrastructure in place, the people do not have the heart to be pushed out of  their communities, the country does not have the financial pull to provide homes and education and free health care for millions (trust me there are many countries with starving people-like Africa). This is the real issue. offering a share of bread to those who seek food, but what to you expect to happen when those same people take all the bread? yes-Brexit  or Nazis get hold.

I am accused of being a rascist and a bigot only for explaining situations which I played no part in bringing about.
I readily await the solution from those who claim not to be ignorant of facts, or to face realities as they present themselves.
Over and over again you accuse me of hurts I have allegedly caused you.  If you would like to provide the evidence of me calling you a racist bigot then kindly post it here.  Otherwise kindly refrain from haranguing me for things I have not written, many thanks.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 05:43:07 PM
Legally, yes. Morally? I would say not. They are, after all, 'Honourable' members.

I'd normally agree but not in this case.

What I find immoral is that:
-  the fact that it was simply advisory was apparently not on the leaflet that I've never seen;

- there was a campaign based on stoking up fear, anger and polarization;

- the referendum idea was launched at all, before having thought it through, by Cameron;

- May set off the fuse of Art 50 so soon, before any studies had been made as to the impact of various options;.

- it was originally to solve a "catfight within the Conservative party" (Verhofstadt), but which has huge and long-lasting consequences for the vast majority of UK citizens;

- it has divided not only traditional parties (which makes the situation impossible to manage), but is stoking antagonism amongst the nations of the Union and even families and friends (and I can make a wild guess as to whose agenda that might fit into);

- Corbyn is so set on his "vision" that Brexit is just a fly on the dinner table;

- many UK politicians continue to spout total rubbish (e.g. Art 24 of the GATT) when I find it incomprensible that any MP, let alone (cabinet ministers or MEPS)*, could continue to do so - pure Trumpism.


For all these reasons and I could add to them, I really do think that this shambolic situation is a mockery of democracy.

I don't expect others with a very different view to agree, but please don't shout. ;)

Typo: replaced repeating MPs by (cabinet ministers or MEPS).
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 06:39:02 PM
I'd normally agree but not in this case.

What I find immoral is that:
-  the fact that it was simply advisory was apparently not on the leaflet that I've never seen;

- there was a campaign based on stoking up fear, anger and polarization;

- the referendum idea was launched at all, before having thought it through, by Cameron;

- May set off the fuse of Art 50 so soon, before any studies had been made as to the impact of various options;.

- it was originally to solve a "catfight within the Conservative party" (Verhofstadt), but which has huge and long-lasting consequences for the vast majority of UK citizens;

- it has divided not only traditional parties (which makes the situation impossible to manage), but is stoking antagonism amongst the nations of the Union and even families and friends (and I can make a wild guess as to whose agenda that might fit into);

- Corbyn is so set on his "vision" that Brexit is just a fly on the dinner table;

- many UK politicians continue to spout total rubbish (e.g. Art 24 of the GATT) when I find it incomprensible that any MP, let alone MP, could continue to do so - pure Trumpism.
- tht

For all these reasons and I could add to them, I really do think that this shambolic situation is a mockery of democracy.

I don't expect others with a very different view to agree, but please don't shout. ;)

Whatever their reasons the politicians asked the people to decide and they obliged. The politicians misjudged it and some want another try. All the 'reasons' given I see as excuses. The politicians got it wrong and must live with the consequences of their stupidity in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 01, 2019, 06:45:19 PM
Whatever their reasons the politicians asked the people to decide and they obliged. The politicians misjudged it and some want another try. All the 'reasons' given I see as excuses. The politicians got it wrong and must live with the consequences of their stupidity in my opinion.
Why is it OK to call the politicians stupid but not those who voted leave?  Whatever, we will all have to live with the consequences of such stupidity, what a crying shame.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2019, 06:46:11 PM
Whatever their reasons the politicians asked the people to decide and they obliged. The politicians misjudged it and some want another try. All the 'reasons' given I see as excuses. The politicians got it wrong and must live with the consequences of their stupidity in my opinion.

I don't think the politicians got it wrong.  More to the point, the people didn't do as they were told.  How dare thy not.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 06:48:06 PM
Whatever their reasons the politicians asked the people to decide and they obliged. The politicians misjudged it and some want another try. All the 'reasons' given I see as excuses. The politicians got it wrong and must live with the consequences of their stupidity in my opinion.

I hope the consequences of their stupidity are not consequences that those who elected them have to live with.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 08:15:26 PM
Whatever their reasons the politicians asked the people to decide and they obliged. The politicians misjudged it and some want another try. All the 'reasons' given I see as excuses. The politicians got it wrong and must live with the consequences of their stupidity in my opinion.

Politcians come and go. They can disappear tomorrow and tend to their gardens. However, they (of whichever camp) have influenced people to vote on consequences that will affect themselves, but also their kids and grandchldren.

I don't fiind accepting "mistruths"  to be repeated without challenge as to the factual basis to be worthy of a 1st world country.

A few have since done... in the past couple of weeks. Too little, too late.  IMO:
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Why is it OK to call the politicians stupid but not those who voted leave?  Whatever, we will all have to live with the consequences of such stupidity, what a crying shame.

If you ask a question thinking you will get a certain answer that's stupid in my opinion. Voting for what you want in a referendum isn't stupid, it's a democratic right.



Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 02, 2019, 08:27:11 AM
If you ask a question thinking you will get a certain answer that's stupid in my opinion. Voting for what you want in a referendum isn't stupid, it's a democratic right.
What evidence have you got that politicians asked a question believing they would get a certain answer?  I sm currently reading “All Out War” by Tim Shipman and years before the referendum George Osborne was strongly advising against holding one on the basis that leave might win.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 02, 2019, 08:28:43 AM
If you ask a question thinking you will get a certain answer that's stupid in my opinion. Voting for what you want in a referendum isn't stupid, it's a democratic right.
If a turkey votes for Christmas is that stupid or its democratic right or both?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 08:37:44 AM
What evidence have you got that politicians asked a question believing they would get a certain answer?  I sm currently reading “All Out War” by Tim Shipman and years before the referendum George Osborne was strongly advising against holding one on the basis that leave might win.

If they weren't sure why did they vote the Referendum Bill through? Isn't that when they should have made a stand?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 09:30:35 AM
If a turkey votes for Christmas is that stupid or its democratic right or both?

Particularly if the turkey was assured that Christmas involved lots of nuts and berries, and it's other favourite foods. It might, just not quite in the way the turkey had in mind.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 09:57:21 AM
If a turkey votes for Christmas is that stupid or its democratic right or both?

What an insulting post. Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they're stupid. It may be that those who believe the prophets of doom are the stupid ones.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 10:22:44 AM
What an insulting post. Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they're stupid. It may be that those who believe the prophets of doom are the stupid ones.


I don't think the majority who voted to Leave did so out of stupidity, but simply believed that what they were being told was true. But much of it wasn't.

I have friends and family who voted Leave, each for a different set of reasons. Now, nearly all would vote differently, if given a chance.

Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 11:13:14 AM

I don't think the majority who voted to Leave did so out of stupidity, but simply believed that what they were being told was true. But much of it wasn't.

I have friends and family who voted Leave, each for a different set of reasons. Now, nearly all would vote differently, if given a chance.

Did those who campaigned for remaining in the EU told the truth?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Brietta on February 02, 2019, 11:31:33 AM
Did those who campaigned for remaining in the EU told the truth?

Can you point to any lies they've been found out on?  Or is 'project fear' even more fearsome than they let on?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 11:59:16 AM
Can you point to any lies they've been found out on?  Or is 'project fear' even more fearsome than they let on?

I don't know. that's why I asked the question.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 12:17:01 PM
A Conservative MP, Sarah Wollaston, who also happens to be a doctor, offered an analogy (my paraphrasing).

A patient is advised of a dire diagnostic and prognostic. Complex surgery is required.

The patient signs a consent form while waiting for the dreaded op.

Said patient then discovers that the final diagnosis meant that there were safer other options.

Should the hospital force the patient to undergo the potentially life-altering surgery simply because he/she had signed the original consent form on the basis of an initial diagnosis?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 12:25:45 PM
This analogy could be taken further. What if it was some quack doctor's diagnosis?

There are so many questions surrounding the love-in between Arron Banks, Farage, the ERG, and Bannon and / or Putin who all appear to have motives that are not necessarily in the best interests of the UK.

Why hasn't there been a Mueller-style inquiry?

A drip-feed of fines is peanuts.
https://news.sky.com/story/leave-campaign-and-arron-banks-firm-elson-insurance-fined-for-illegal-marketing-11624617
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 08:39:57 AM
What an insulting post. Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they're stupid. It may be that those who believe the prophets of doom are the stupid ones.
You seem to be suggesting that it’s not possible for a body of people to make a decision based on ignorance.  I’m quite sure that had the vote gone Remain’s way it would not have been the end of Farage, UKIP, ERG etc all pushing their agendas as hard as possible for another referendum asap, would that have been considered undemocratic?  Somehow I doubt it.

PS as you chose not to vote at all, why do you feel insulted by my post?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 08:45:14 AM
Did those who campaigned for remaining in the EU told the truth?
A vote to Remain was a vote for the status quo, I voted remain because I was reasonably content with the way things were and believed that the UK should continue to sit at the table in Brussels to make her case and to work with other countries to address some of the less desirable aspects of EU membership.  What lies would the Remain camp have told to get me to this way of thinking?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
You seem to be suggesting that it’s not possible for a body of people to make a decision based on ignorance.  I’m quite sure that had the vote gone Remain’s way it would not have been the end of Farage, UKIP, ERG etc all pushing their agendas as hard as possible for another referendum asap, would that have been considered undemocratic?  Somehow I doubt it.

It no longer matters why people voted as they did. What matters is that MP's do what they promised to do, and accept the result.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 09:34:58 AM
Did those who campaigned for remaining in the EU told the truth?

None that I can recall. Can you think of any?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 10:29:38 AM
None that I can recall. Can you think of any?

Did you mean lies?

"A dangerous fantasy" is how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage's claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker has proposed an EU Army.

David Cameron said he wouldn't resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Our new Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Davel on February 03, 2019, 10:44:31 AM
Did you mean lies?

"A dangerous fantasy" is how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage's claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker has proposed an EU Army.

David Cameron said he wouldn't resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Our new Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html

di Cameron deliberately mislead and say he would not resign when he knew he would...chainging his mind is not telling  a lie...
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:46:35 AM
Did you mean lies?

"A dangerous fantasy" is how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage's claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker has proposed an EU Army.

David Cameron said he wouldn't resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Universities wanted the UK to remain in the EU because leaving would result in Horizon 2020 funding disappearing. Our new Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has agreed to keep this funding in place

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/leave-lies-remainers-need_b_12191462.html

The "EU army" thing isn't clear. There's an acronym (begins with C... can't remember for the mo) which involves joint defence cooperation and missions.

From the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37317765

I'd agree that there is no point in duplicating NATO, but then NATO isn't a military force as such, it's a treaty based on the joint capabilities of its constituent members. Context is important as well (IMO), with Trump threatening to pull out and concerns over whatever Russia is up to.


NB: Without reading / watching what Farage actually said, it's hard to know what Clegg was objecting to. Farage does like his sound bites, after all.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
It no longer matters why people voted as they did. What matters is that MP's do what they promised to do, and accept the result.
You have conveniently side stepped my questions and the points we had previously been discussing.  You have shut down the discussion.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
di Cameron deliberately mislead and say he would not resign when he knew he would...chainging his mind is not telling  a lie...

That would depend on whether he meant what he said when he said it.
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:52:47 PM
That would depend on whether he meant what he said when he said it.


True, and that applies across the board.

Numerous politicians have said one thing and then denied they ever said it.

Which is it?

People can change their minds, but then to emphatically deny that they'd ever said any such thing is, de facto, a lie, unless they're suffering from some kind of dementia, in which case what are they doing representing anyone other than themselves?
Title: Re: Would a second referendum or peoples vote achieve anything?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 08, 2019, 10:42:39 PM

True, and that applies across the board.

Numerous politicians have said one thing and then denied they ever said it.

Which is it?

People can change their minds, but then to emphatically deny that they'd ever said any such thing is, de facto, a lie, unless they're suffering from some kind of dementia, in which case what are they doing representing anyone other than themselves?

Is there such an animal?  a self serving politician? surely not...