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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on February 06, 2019, 01:42:54 AM

Title: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 06, 2019, 01:42:54 AM


Man who served a sentence for a crime he did not commit requires 500 thousand euros for "gross error" Armindo Castro was convicted and imprisoned for two and a half years.
By Fátima Vilaça | 05.02.19 share 559 0 1 / 4
Armindo Castro foi condenado a 20 anos de prisão CMTV 559 0
Armindo Castro was imprisoned for two years and a half for a crime he did not commit.


 The 941 days he spent behind the bars left the student of Fafe, 32, "serious psychological damage." And so, now requires the State compensation of half a million euros as a way to repair "the gross inexcusable and scandalous error" - the sentence to 20 years in jail for the murder of the aunt, Odete Castro, in Joane, Famalicão, in 2012 . The crime was to be assumed, two years later, by another man. Armindo Castro was finally acquitted as early as January 2018, but his life was not the same again. "We hoped that someone on behalf of the state would have had some contact with Armindo Castro, in order to apologize at least, to alleviate this injustice and repair this enormous error of law, but this has never happened and we have decided to proceed with this process to demand the reparation of this clamorous error of the Portuguese Justice, "explained the lawyer Paulo Gomes, who has already filed the lawsuit demanding the State compensation for the damages caused. The lawyer based his claim on the decision of the Guimarães Court - which acquitted Armindo Castro in January of last year. "It was clearly demonstrated in the ruling that the Armindo had nothing to do with this crime," he said. The homicide was committed by a couple of neighbors - Artur Gomes and Júlia Lobo -, already condemned to sentences of 20 and 18 years of prison. During the initial investigation, Armindo Castro confessed to the crime and even made a reconstitution of the murder. He then said that he did so by feeling pressured and threatened, fearing that his mother might be arrested.

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Castro was originally sentenced to 20 years.......
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 03:35:39 AM

Good heavens.  It took them long enough to Acquit  him.  So much for Confessions.  But he needs to be careful or they will have him for impugning The Judiciary.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 07:01:24 AM
Another Portugal bashing thread Misty.  Did you know there are serious miscarriages of justice in the UK too?

Here is a list of some of them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 07:07:47 AM
In fact, according to this article there is a miscarriage of justice overturned every day in the UK.

“People think that miscarriages of justice are rare and exceptional,” says Dr Michael Naughton, founder of the UK Innocence Project. “But every single day, people are overturning convictions for criminal offences. Miscarriages of justice are routine, even mundane features of the criminal justice system. They are systemic.”



The rest of the article goes on to details several serious UK miscarriages of justice, and makes depressing reading IMO.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11075284/When-innocent-men-go-to-jail-miscarriages-of-justice-in-Britain.html
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 07:25:37 AM
Another Portugal bashing thread Misty.  Did you know there are serious miscarriages of justice in the UK too?

Here is a list of some of them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom
The fascinating thing about this is that according to a member of this forum who I believe lives in Portugal, there has never been a proven miscarriage of justice case there, so this must be something of a first!  Portugal’s 100% record destroyed by this man, how inconsiderate of him.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 08:08:20 AM
Another Portugal bashing thread Misty.  Did you know there are serious miscarriages of justice in the UK too?

Here is a list of some of them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom

Its not a portugal bashing thread.....a miscarriage of justice involving a confesssion...that is real cause for concern.
Posters here refuse to accept that Cipriano may be a victim of a miscarriage of justice..because of her confession even though there was no real evidence against her....perhaps you could list miscarriages of justice in the uk where the suspects have confessed...i can only think of one some time ago
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 08:37:37 AM
Yes, it would be very interesting to know why certain members of this forum seem 100% certain of the Ciprianos guilt, in light of this important revelation that the Portuguese judicial system does sometimes get things horribly wrong.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 11:16:19 AM
Its not a portugal bashing thread.....a miscarriage of justice involving a confesssion...that is real cause for concern.
Posters here refuse to accept that Cipriano may be a victim of a miscarriage of justice..because of her confession even though there was no real evidence against her....perhaps you could list miscarriages of justice in the uk where the suspects have confessed...i can only think of one some time ago

From Sunny’s link

Paul Blackburn
Convicted: 1978
Time served: 25 years
Released: 2003
Blackburn spent a quarter of a century in prison after he was convicted, aged 15, for the sexual assault and attempted murder of a nine-year-old boy. The prosecution depended on a confession by Blackburn that was written after four hours of police interrogation. In 2005, appeal judges found that police “did not tell the truth” when they said that the confession was offered freely and in Blackburn’s own words. Blackburn says the statement was dictated to him, and expert testimony found it unlikely that a badly educated 15-year-old could have spelled so many technical terms correctly. The appeal court ruled that Blackburn’s confession should never have been considered evidence.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 11:18:43 AM
From Sunny’s link

Paul Blackburn
Convicted: 1978
Time served: 25 years
Released: 2003
Blackburn spent a quarter of a century in prison after he was convicted, aged 15, for the sexual assault and attempted murder of a nine-year-old boy. The prosecution depended on a confession by Blackburn that was written after four hours of police interrogation. In 2005, appeal judges found that police “did not tell the truth” when they said that the confession was offered freely and in Blackburn’s own words. Blackburn says the statement was dictated to him, and expert testimony found it unlikely that a badly educated 15-year-old could have spelled so many technical terms correctly. The appeal court ruled that Blackburn’s confession should never have been considered evidence.
Oh that's alright then.  Britain has its own miscarriages of justice which mean we can ignore or downplay the one in Portugal, relevant as it is to the issue of possible false confessions and false imprisonment in other cases where there is no evidence APART from the confession. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 12:06:20 PM
From Sunny’s link

Paul Blackburn
Convicted: 1978
Time served: 25 years
Released: 2003
Blackburn spent a quarter of a century in prison after he was convicted, aged 15, for the sexual assault and attempted murder of a nine-year-old boy. The prosecution depended on a confession by Blackburn that was written after four hours of police interrogation. In 2005, appeal judges found that police “did not tell the truth” when they said that the confession was offered freely and in Blackburn’s own words. Blackburn says the statement was dictated to him, and expert testimony found it unlikely that a badly educated 15-year-old could have spelled so many technical terms correctly. The appeal court ruled that Blackburn’s confession should never have been considered evidence.

That's the one I was thinking of.... So a confession is not a reliable indication of guilt for several reasons... Apart from rhe confession...which it was, reported was beaten out of her.. There was no real evidence against Cipriano so it's, reasonable to think she was another miscarriage of justice
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 12:12:57 PM
That's the one I was thinking of.... So a confession is not a reliable indication of guilt for several reasons... Apart from rhe confession...which it was, reported was beaten out of her.. There was no real evidence against Cipriano so it's, reasonable to think she was another miscarriage of justice

Except Cipriano gave her confession before the alleged beating.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
Another example of a conviction in the UK that resulted from a confession, from someone not overly blessed in the intellect department, a bit like the simple Cipriano souls:

"In 1976, a 23-year-old loner, Stefan Kiszko, was jailed for life for the murder. A giant of a man, who suffered from immaturity because his testicles had not developed, Mr Kiszko had confessed to the crime after two days' questioning with no solicitor present.

He later withdraw his confession, but his barrister, David Waddington, now a Conservative peer, ran a defence of manslaughter through diminished responsibility".
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 12:18:17 PM
Perhaps Faithlilly would like to explain why she has such faith in the conviction of the Ciprianos?

No, I didn't think so.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 12:23:20 PM

I have never seen any proof that Leonor Cipriano confessed before she was beaten. Is there any?  If so then I would like to see it.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 12:27:29 PM
I have never seen any proof that Leonor Cipriano confessed before she was beaten. Is there any?  If so then I would like to see it.

I believe it was established at her trial. Nigel’s site had the information.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
I believe it was established at her trial. Nigel’s site had the information.

the only source I have ever seen is from the lawyer representing those who were accused of her torture...every other report says the confession was beaten out of her

MST : No, about defendants sent to a court of justice after confessing to crimes made under beating, which is obvious, I cannot accept that, therefore, I suspect.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7483.0

Miguel souse Tavares....a Portuguese journalist...he should know the truth
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 12:45:08 PM
MST : It was proved that she was beaten, that was judged also that she was beaten hard..
GA : Who was condemned?
MST : You were condemned with a suspended sanction, suspended not for beating her but for making false declarations about the case...   
GA : How did I make false declarations ? How do we come to this ? I'm going to explain it quickly... 

MST : There was a judicial sentence, I'm guided by the sentence.
GA : No, I was heard always as a witness and one day (inaudible)...
MST : Let me ask you a question, do you think that in this country many people believes that Leonor Cipriano killed her daughter ?
GA : I think so.
MST : Very few people, Gonçalo Amaral, very few people.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 12:48:57 PM
I believe it was established at her trial. Nigel’s site had the information.

I still haven't seen this.  And I do not believe it.  Why beat her up if she had confessed already?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 12:54:42 PM
I still haven't seen this.  And I do not believe it.  Why beat her up if she had confessed already?
And even if it's true that she was beaten up after the confession she was clearly surrounded by very aggressive threatening men, who wouldn't crack under that sort of intimidation and  pressure?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 01:01:31 PM
I still haven't seen this.  And I do not believe it.  Why beat her up if she had confessed already?

Exactly.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 01:08:34 PM
Exactly.
*%87
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 02:31:47 PM
Exactly.

But she hadnt already confessed
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
But she hadnt already confessed

Yes she had.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 02:59:12 PM
Yes she had.

Produce The Proof.  Or I shall have to start Deleting.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 03:28:06 PM
Produce The Proof.  Or I shall have to start Deleting.

I’m sure you’ll be nothing less than fair.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 03:30:53 PM
I’m sure you’ll be nothing less than fair.

Thank You, no, I won't be less than fair.  But this Board requires Cites.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 03:38:33 PM
I'm still looking forward to being told why so many sceptics are convinced of the Ciprianos' guilt when there was no evidence except their confessions, physically beaten out of them or not.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 03:50:58 PM
Facts
 

From news reports of the trial.


‘Leonor confessed the crime on the 13th of October and alleged being beaten a day later.
 
Leonor Cipriano, confessed all of the facts related to her daughter's murder to the PJ on the 13th of October 2004, in the presence of her lawyer, who at the time was Célia Costa. Leonor's brother, Joao Cipriano, had previously confessed the crimes a few days before, on the 8 of October.’


‘The PJ inspector stated that on the night of the alleged aggressions, on the 14th of October 2004, he was inside the building of the PJ directory in Faro, accompanied by Joao Cipriano, Leonor's brother, with whom he had been carrying out diligences within the Joana case.’

I’d appreciate a reinstatement of my posts.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 04:01:43 PM
Facts
 

From news reports of the trial.


‘Leonor confessed the crime on the 13th of October and alleged being beaten a day later.
 
Leonor Cipriano, confessed all of the facts related to her daughter's murder to the PJ on the 13th of October 2004, in the presence of her lawyer, who at the time was Célia Costa. Leonor's brother, Joao Cipriano, had previously confessed the crimes a few days before, on the 8 of October.’


‘The PJ inspector stated that on the night of the alleged aggressions, on the 14th of October 2004, he was inside the building of the PJ directory in Faro, accompanied by Joao Cipriano, Leonor's brother, with whom he had been carrying out diligences within the Joana case.’

I’d appreciate a reinstatement of my posts.
Nothing but a link to the signed and dated confession will do I'm afraid, sorry.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: barrier on February 06, 2019, 04:06:13 PM
Nothing but a link to the signed and dated confession will do I'm afraid, sorry.

I must have missed the announcement where you get to decide what is it what will do.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 04:19:40 PM
I must have missed the announcement where you get to decide what is it what will do.
Oh dear, it was a tongue in cheek comment, I should have put one of these  @)(++(* at the end for those who thought there'd been an announcement putting me in charge  @)(++(*

That said, do Faithlilly's quotes prove anything in your opinion?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
Facts
 

From news reports of the trial.


‘Leonor confessed the crime on the 13th of October and alleged being beaten a day later.
 
Leonor Cipriano, confessed all of the facts related to her daughter's murder to the PJ on the 13th of October 2004, in the presence of her lawyer, who at the time was Célia Costa. Leonor's brother, Joao Cipriano, had previously confessed the crimes a few days before, on the 8 of October.’


‘The PJ inspector stated that on the night of the alleged aggressions, on the 14th of October 2004, he was inside the building of the PJ directory in Faro, accompanied by Joao Cipriano, Leonor's brother, with whom he had been carrying out diligences within the Joana case.’

I’d appreciate a reinstatement of my posts.

You need to provide a link to show where this has come from... Otherwise it's worthless... I have provided a cite to show a Portuguese journalist telling amaral she was beaten in custody to confess... Why doesn't anaral deny this... Because I would say it's obviously  true
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 04:37:30 PM
Facts
 

From news reports of the trial.


‘Leonor confessed the crime on the 13th of October and alleged being beaten a day later.
 
Leonor Cipriano, confessed all of the facts related to her daughter's murder to the PJ on the 13th of October 2004, in the presence of her lawyer, who at the time was Célia Costa. Leonor's brother, Joao Cipriano, had previously confessed the crimes a few days before, on the 8 of October.’


‘The PJ inspector stated that on the night of the alleged aggressions, on the 14th of October 2004, he was inside the building of the PJ directory in Faro, accompanied by Joao Cipriano, Leonor's brother, with whom he had been carrying out diligences within the Joana case.’

I’d appreciate a reinstatement of my posts.

Leonora took the option to silence at her trial so your reports are obviously  not genuine
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 04:44:18 PM
Leonora took the option to silence at her trial so your reports are obviously  not genuine

But her trial wasn't on 13th October 2004 her trial was later.   This is when she confessed not when she stood trial.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 04:49:12 PM
But her trial wasn't on 13th October 2004 her trial was later.   This is when she confessed not when she stood trial.

She confessed after being beaten...
Faiths statement comes from the trial of the PJ accused of torture... As I understand the statement was made by the lawyer for the PJ officers accused of torture and is unsubstantiated..... It's pure fantasy IMO... Faith needs to provide a cite to show this quote has any validity.. I'm quite sure it has none
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 05:08:54 PM
But her trial wasn't on 13th October 2004 her trial was later.   This is when she confessed not when she stood trial.
Sunny, are you quite sure there was no miscarriage of justice in this case?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 05:13:09 PM
But her trial wasn't on 13th October 2004 her trial was later.   This is when she confessed not when she stood trial.
Please provide a cite to support your claim she confessed on 13 oct
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 06, 2019, 05:15:51 PM
Facts
 

From news reports of the trial.


‘Leonor confessed the crime on the 13th of October and alleged being beaten a day later.
 
Leonor Cipriano, confessed all of the facts related to her daughter's murder to the PJ on the 13th of October 2004, in the presence of her lawyer, who at the time was Célia Costa. Leonor's brother, Joao Cipriano, had previously confessed the crimes a few days before, on the 8 of October.’


‘The PJ inspector stated that on the night of the alleged aggressions, on the 14th of October 2004, he was inside the building of the PJ directory in Faro, accompanied by Joao Cipriano, Leonor's brother, with whom he had been carrying out diligences within the Joana case.’

I’d appreciate a reinstatement of my posts.

Sorry.  This won't do for me, I'm afraid.  There is no proof of who said that or under what circumstances.

It sounds like a Witness Statement, although I can't be sure of that.  And whoever he is he could be twisting facts.

I deleted just one post of yours where you said, "Delete Away."
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 06, 2019, 05:50:29 PM
Another Portugal bashing thread Misty.  Did you know there are serious miscarriages of justice in the UK too?

Here is a list of some of them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom

It makes a change from a McCann-bashing thread, doesn't it? I'd ask for a link to the list of recorded  miscarriages of justice in Portugal but there doesn't seem to be one. 100% perfection or evidence of endemic corruption?

Anyway, I was wondering what sort of pressure was applied to this young student which made him not only confess to but actually re-enact a crime he hadn't committed?
Incidentally, the guilty neighbours of this victim had murdered 2 other women.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 06:26:02 PM
Please provide a cite to support your claim she confessed on 13 oct


He continued, “I have no reason not to believe my colleagues” and added Leonor Cipriano confessed her involvement in her daughter’s death on October 13th.


http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/joana-case-photos-could-have-been-doctored-says-it-expert/25624

I see on this link that at the trial an IT specialist believed that Leonor Cipriano's photgraphs were manipulated. I agree they do look so.

I do believe that Leonor Cipriano and her brother were guilty as charged and Joana died at their hands.

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 06:34:07 PM

He continued, “I have no reason not to believe my colleagues” and added Leonor Cipriano confessed her involvement in her daughter’s death on October 13th.


http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/joana-case-photos-could-have-been-doctored-says-it-expert/25624

I see on this link that at the trial an IT specialist believed that Leonor Cipriano's photgraphs were manipulated. I agree they do look so.

I do believe that Leonor Cipriano and her brother were guilty as charged and Joana died at their hands.

So your cite is a PJ inspector... Marquis Blom... That's all you have.... One if the pj who were, accused of torture... How do you know he is telling the truth..
The court decided the PJ lied when they claimed cipriano fell
Down the stairs... So they had already lied... I would say this is just another lie to cover up their torture
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 06:36:33 PM
So your cite is a PJ inspector... Marquis Blom... That's all you have.... As he was supporting the PJ... Who were, accused of torture... How do you know he is telling the truth..
The court decided the PJ lied when they claimed cipriano fell
Down the stairs... So they had already lied... I would say this is just another lie to cover up their torture

I have given a named person who said she confessed on 13th October 2004. Give me someone (named) who said she didn't.

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
I have given a named person who said she confessed on 13th October 2004. Give me someone (named) who said she didn't.

You've given the name of a man accused of extracting the confession by torture... One of the accused... Who were shown by the court to have lied.... So there is nothing apart from this to show she confessed before being tortured
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 06, 2019, 06:41:00 PM
I have given a named person who said she confessed on 13th October 2004. Give me someone (named) who said she didn't.

If Leonor had already confessed, why did the PJ need the "big guys" down from Lisbon to help out?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 06:41:05 PM

He continued, “I have no reason not to believe my colleagues” and added Leonor Cipriano confessed her involvement in her daughter’s death on October 13th.


http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/joana-case-photos-could-have-been-doctored-says-it-expert/25624

I see on this link that at the trial an IT specialist believed that Leonor Cipriano's photgraphs were manipulated. I agree they do look so.

I do believe that Leonor Cipriano and her brother were guilty as charged and Joana died at their hands.
Why?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
I have given a named person who said she confessed on 13th October 2004. Give me someone (named) who said she didn't.

Célia Costa, Cipriano’s lawyer, would be the perfect witness to debunk the officers claim. Has she ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 06:54:02 PM
Célia Costa, Cipriano’s lawyer, would be the perfect witness to debunk the officers claim. Has she ?

Amaral sued correia fir accusing amaral of being complicit in the extraction of a confession by torture... Amaral lost
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 06:57:44 PM
Amaral sued correia fir accusing amaral of being complicit in the extraction of a confession by torture... Amaral lost

And ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 06, 2019, 07:06:23 PM
And ?

Amaral never claimed she had already confessed
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 06, 2019, 07:42:05 PM
Amaral never claimed she had already confessed

Did Costa claim Cipriano hadn’t confessed before being tortured?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 06, 2019, 09:43:42 PM
Did Costa claim Cipriano hadn’t confessed before being tortured?

In the Proven Facts (no. 8) of the attached document, it states that Leonor went to Faro police station accompanied by her lawyer Celia Costa & was interrogated by Cristovao. There is no reference to a confession. The next proven fact relates to events of 14th October 2004.
http://home.iscte-iul.pt/~apad/ACED_juristas/maddietrab_ficheiros/Acordao%20Leonor%20Cipriano%20contra%20Goncalo%20e%20outros.%2022Maio2009.pdf



Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:11:01 PM
According to this the torture occurred at the end of September
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/may/02portugal-report.htm
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 07:52:56 AM
Interesting to note that no one who has absolute belief in Leonor’s guilt has been able to explain why. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 08:07:45 AM
Interesting to note that no one who has absolute belief in Leonor’s guilt has been able to explain why.

It looks like a thoughtless reaction to me.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 08:29:18 AM
Except Cipriano gave her confession before the alleged beating.
If Cipriano gave her confession before her (proven) beating, the very next day she withdrew her confession which suggests whatever the case she gave a confession under duress.  If she was beaten up after confessing and then withdrawing her confession then perhaps that would explain why - beaten for withdrawing her confession. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 08, 2019, 09:14:33 AM
If Cipriano gave her confession before her (proven) beating, the very next day she withdrew her confession which suggests whatever the case she gave a confession under duress.  If she was beaten up after confessing and then withdrawing her confession then perhaps that would explain why - beaten for withdrawing her confession.

There is no real evidence she confessed the day before... The only statement I've seen to support it is from one of the PJ accused of the torture...

Several Portuguese papers have also reported she confessed in court... That is untrue too... Neither did Jaoa.... In court the prosecution showed a video of a confession by Jaoa which may well have been inadmissible as confessions are only accepted as evidence if they are made in court
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 09:17:45 AM
There is no real evidence she confessed the day before... The only statement I've seen to support it is from one of the PJ accused of the torture...

This is all that I have seen as well.  A PJ Officer accused of her torture.  Has anyone got anything better to offer?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: barrier on February 08, 2019, 10:09:07 AM
Or,has no one got anything better to do.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 10:11:30 AM
Or,has no one got anything better to do.

It would seem that it might be a waste of time.  I'll grant you that.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 08, 2019, 10:46:20 AM
This is all that I have seen as well.  A PJ Officer accused of her torture.  Has anyone got anything better to offer?

A PJ officer acquitted of her torture ?

I believe you made the point yesterday about OJ being acquitted.

I also gave cites yesterday detailing the presence of Cipriano’s lawyer Célia Costa in the room when Cipriano confessed. That would be a pretty stupid claim to make in court if not true.

You seem to have a bit of a soft spot for this convicted child killer Eleanor but your sympathies really would be better directed elsewhere.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 10:52:04 AM
A PJ officer acquitted of her torture ?

I believe you made the point yesterday about OJ being acquitted.

I also gave cites yesterday detailing the presence of Cipriano’s lawyer Célia Costa in the room when Cipriano confessed. That would be a pretty stupid claim to make in court if not true.

You seem to have a bit of a soft spot for this convicted child killer Eleanor but your sympathies really would be better directed elsewhere.

My Business, not yours.

These Officers were acquitted because Leonore Cipriano couldn't identify them.  But there doesn't appear to be anything to support his claim.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 08, 2019, 11:05:14 AM
A PJ officer acquitted of her torture ?

I believe you made the point yesterday about OJ being acquitted.

I also gave cites yesterday detailing the presence of Cipriano’s lawyer Célia Costa in the room when Cipriano confessed. That would be a pretty stupid claim to make in court if not true.

You seem to have a bit of a soft spot for this convicted child killer Eleanor but your sympathies really would be better directed elsewhere.

He hasn't been cleared or found innocent....he claimed cipriani fell down the stairs ...the court didn't accept this so he is another pj officer found to have lied....
The court accepted she wad tortured in the custody of the pj
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 08, 2019, 11:12:42 AM
My Business, not yours.

These Officers were acquitted because Leonore Cipriano couldn't identify them.  But there doesn't appear to be anything to support his claim.

It is indeed your business.

As to the other ‘business’

From TV Mais http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id177.htm


‘What is known for certain is that on the 13th of October [2004], Leonor confessed to murdering her daughter Joana. And it is known that she did so in the presence of her lawyer, Celia Costa, who confirms that she didn't see anyone assaulting Leonor.’

From this it is obvious that Cipriano’s lawyer at the time gave evidence in court to confirm Cipriano confessed on the 13th, a full day before her alleged beating.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 11:29:06 AM
It is indeed your business.

As to the other ‘business’

From TV Mais http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id177.htm


‘What is known for certain is that on the 13th of October [2004], Leonor confessed to murdering her daughter Joana. And it is known that she did so in the presence of her lawyer, Celia Costa, who confirms that she didn't see anyone assaulting Leonor.’

From this it is obvious that Cipriano’s lawyer at the time gave evidence in court to confirm Cipriano confessed on the 13th, a full day before her alleged beating.

If Leonore did indeed confess to the murder of her daughter why did The PJ Officers then proceed to torture her a day later, and for what purpose?

This doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 08, 2019, 11:45:48 AM
It is indeed your business.

As to the other ‘business’

From TV Mais http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id177.htm


‘What is known for certain is that on the 13th of October [2004], Leonor confessed to murdering her daughter Joana. And it is known that she did so in the presence of her lawyer, Celia Costa, who confirms that she didn't see anyone assaulting Leonor.’

From this it is obvious that Cipriano’s lawyer at the time gave evidence in court to confirm Cipriano confessed on the 13th, a full day before her alleged beating.

So who is, saying this... It's Carvalho who is pro amaral and anti mccann
You are, saying.. Based in this... It's obvious ciprianos lawyer gave evidence in court..

No it's not obvious... Just speculation by you..
There is no reliable evidence cipriano confessed before the beating...
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 08, 2019, 05:03:47 PM
So who is, saying this... It's Carvalho who is pro amaral and anti mccann
You are, saying.. Based in this... It's obvious ciprianos lawyer gave evidence in court..

No it's not obvious... Just speculation by you..
There is no reliable evidence cipriano confessed before the beating...

I’m not arguing. The evidence is there no matter how much you try to deny it.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 05:43:46 PM
If Leonore did indeed confess to the murder of her daughter why did The PJ Officers then proceed to torture her a day later, and for what purpose?

This doesn't make sense.
Because she withdrew her confession?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 07:12:24 PM
Because she withdrew her confession?

I'm not one for Lolling, but I'll give you a Lol for that.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 08:46:57 PM
I'm not one for Lolling, but I'll give you a Lol for that.
What’s funny about it?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 08:51:47 PM
What’s funny about it?

I was wondering at what point between the 13th when she confessed, and 6am on the 14th when The PJ collected her from prison that Leonore had time to withdraw her confession.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 09:13:01 PM
I was wondering at what point between the 13th when she confessed, and 6am on the 14th when The PJ collected her from prison that Leonore had time to withdraw her confession.
Dunno but they must have been well pissed off with her by then.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 09:20:04 PM
Dunno but they must have been well pissed off with her by then.

Can you blame them?  That must have been the shortest standing confession in history.  I bet they didn't even have time to get it typed up and signed.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: carlymichelle on February 08, 2019, 09:36:10 PM
i was  reading today she was  released  from prison  so no more whining  about her  now??
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2019, 09:38:15 PM
i was  reading today she was  released  from prison  so no more whining  about her  now??

Leonor is still insisting that she is innocent.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 08, 2019, 09:45:57 PM
I’m not arguing. The evidence is there no matter how much you try to deny it.

I strongly recommend you download the attached document then run it through google translate (select "documents" then link to the file on your computer). That will help you see there was no confession on 13th October & certain service information from the 14th Oct written by Cristovao shows record of confession. It's a long read but worth it.
http://home.iscte-iul.pt/~apad/ACED_juristas/maddietrab_ficheiros/Acordao%20Leonor%20Cipriano%20contra%20Goncalo%20e%20outros.%2022Maio2009.pdf
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 08, 2019, 09:48:20 PM
Leonor is still insisting that she is innocent.

So is Russell Bishop and I imagine most other convicted murderers.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 08, 2019, 10:00:36 PM
I strongly recommend you download the attached document then run it through google translate (select "documents" then link to the file on your computer). That will help you see there was no confession on 13th October & certain service information from the 14th Oct written by Cristovao shows record of confession. It's a long read but worth it.

I will read it Misty ... where is it though?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 08, 2019, 10:17:57 PM
I will read it Misty ... where is it though?

Sorry, now added. Don't know what happened first time round.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 10, 2019, 08:17:24 AM
I strongly recommend you download the attached document then run it through google translate (select "documents" then link to the file on your computer). That will help you see there was no confession on 13th October & certain service information from the 14th Oct written by Cristovao shows record of confession. It's a long read but worth it.
http://home.iscte-iul.pt/~apad/ACED_juristas/maddietrab_ficheiros/Acordao%20Leonor%20Cipriano%20contra%20Goncalo%20e%20outros.%2022Maio2009.pdf

This is a very good read... An official Portuguese court documents which records...

No mention of any confession on the 13th
Confession and torture on the 14th
Leonora was assaulted by agents of the, PJ... But they could not be identified
ThePJ officers claims Leonora, threw herself down the, steps... Which the court did not accept
Amaral was guilty of false witness... Well worth a, read
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 09:25:12 AM
This is a very good read... An official Portuguese court documents which records...

No mention of any confession on the 13th
Confession and torture on the 14th
Leonora was assaulted by agents of the, PJ... But they could not be identified
ThePJ officers claims Leonora, threw herself down the, steps... Which the court did not accept
Amaral was guilty of false witness... Well worth a, read

I think the "confession" the day before the alleged unfortunate episode with the police station stair is nothing short of fabrication.  Were that not so why no mention of it during legal proceedings in court.

Due to the courage of the prison governor who refused to collude that the bruised and battered Leonor the police returned to her prison was the victim of irate prisoners not the PJ in whose custody she had been; but instead had photos taken of her injuries and put the truth on record as a result.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 10:38:07 AM
This is a very good read... An official Portuguese court documents which records...

No mention of any confession on the 13th
Confession and torture on the 14th
Leonora was assaulted by agents of the, PJ... But they could not be identified
ThePJ officers claims Leonora, threw herself down the, steps... Which the court did not accept
Amaral was guilty of false witness... Well worth a, read
I don’t expect it will make any difference to those who are convinced of Cipriano ‘s guilt despite the complete absence of any evidence apart from a very dodgy confession that was withdrawn within 24 hours and in which the defendant was bludgeoned by police.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 10:53:55 AM
Indeed why should they? It adds nothing to Madeleine's disappearance or her chances of being found.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 10, 2019, 11:20:10 AM
Indeed why should they? It adds nothing to Madeleine's disappearance or her chances of being found.

Whether Cipriano was beaten before her confession, and her lawyer confirmed that she wasn’t, her brother João certainly wasn’t, as we can see from the reconstitution video, and gave a very fluid reconstruction of the killing of Joana.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:32:39 AM
Indeed why should they? It adds nothing to Madeleine's disappearance or her chances of being found.
It is relevant because if the Ciprianos actually were not responsible for the disappearance of a little girl shortly before the disappearance of another little girl in the same area then who was?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:34:27 AM
Whether Cipriano was beaten before her confession, and her lawyer confirmed that she wasn’t, her brother João certainly wasn’t, as we can see from the reconstitution video, and gave a very fluid reconstruction of the killing of Joana.
I don’t suppose anyone has ever been convicted on the strength of their “very fluid” but completely false account of a crime they never committed?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 11:34:48 AM
Straw-clutching at its best - IMO
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:44:24 AM
Straw-clutching at its best - IMO
What is?  Can you please tell me what convinces you that the Ciprianos are guilty?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 10, 2019, 11:47:23 AM
Whether Cipriano was beaten before her confession, and her lawyer confirmed that she wasn’t, her brother João certainly wasn’t, as we can see from the reconstitution video, and gave a very fluid reconstruction of the killing of Joana.

that simply is not true...the fact that you are relying on a lie to support your argument shows its weakness
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:51:50 AM
A long but fascinating article about false confessions for anyone who believes that “a very fluid” reconstruction means someone is giving an accurate account of their actions

https://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/false-confessions
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 11:53:08 AM
What is?  Can you please tell me what convinces you that the Ciprianos are guilty?

I don't have any opinion on them, other than it has nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
They are of no interest to me.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 11:53:17 AM
What is?  Can you please tell me what convinces you that the Ciprianos are guilty?

There isn't anything. 

Joao wasn't a very nice person so he was going to blame anyone else he could, especially if he himself was threatened by The PJ.

None of it makes sense.  Joana goes to the shop five minutes away, so he and his sister jump into bed?  This was rejected by The Court, by the way.

So what other reason can there have been for those two to beat Joana to death?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:55:13 AM
I don't have any opinion on them, other than it has nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
They are of no interest to me.
How are you so completely certain Joana’s disappearance has nothing to do with Madeleine’s? 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 11:56:48 AM
I don't have any opinion on them, other than it has nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
They are of no interest to me.

It could have everything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:05:44 PM
It could have everything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

And equally it could have absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:13:52 PM
How are you so completely certain Joana’s disappearance has nothing to do with Madeleine’s?

Because it is a case dug out, and promoted solely to discredit the Portuguese judiciary system and a  certain pesky detective in particular by known McCann supporters. IMO
For that reason I discard it
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 12:15:09 PM
Because it is a case dug out, and promoted solely to discredit the Portuguese judiciary system and a  certain pesky detective in particular by known McCann supporters. IMO
For that reason I discard it


You must admit its got legs though.
Won't be long before the next round of funding nonsense starts.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 12:17:10 PM
And equally it could have absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine

So you think that because it might not then the idea should be discarded?  You won't solve many crimes with that attitude.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:19:28 PM
So you think that because it might not then the idea should be discarded?  You won't solve many crimes with that attitude.

I hadn't realised that super sleuths like yourself had solved any.
Og, who are real detectives have made no mention of the case, as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 12:20:11 PM

You must admit its got legs though.
Won't be long before the next round of funding nonsense starts.

There is nothing to do with Nonsense regarding The Funding.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 12:21:46 PM
I hadn't realised that super sleuths like yourself had solved any.
Og, who are real detectives have made no mention of the case, as far as I'm aware.

Why should OG say anything.  You don't seriously believe that they haven't thought of it, do you?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
Why should OG say anything.  You don't seriously believe that they haven't thought of it, do you?

They seem quite happy to talk about burglars and such like. Why should they be coy over this subject
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 12:26:22 PM
Because it is a case dug out, and promoted solely to discredit the Portuguese judiciary system and a  certain pesky detective in particular by known McCann supporters. IMO
For that reason I discard it
That's a pretty poor reason IMO.  Try and look at it a bit more objectively.  Joana goes missing September 2004, she is a young girl, her body is never found.  Two and a half years later, 15 km down the road another little girl goes missing, her body is never found.  This is in a non-urban, not very densely populated part of the world, two extremely rare cases of female children disappearing into thin air.  And you think there is no way these cases could be linked because of the spiteful attitude of McCann supporters?  Does that really make any sense?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 12:26:35 PM
They seem quite happy to talk about burglars and such like. Why should they be coy over this subject

Because they already have someone in mind.  In My Opinion.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 01:07:41 PM
There is nothing to do with Nonsense regarding The Funding.

yeah right.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 01:18:41 PM
yeah right.

Tis too.  Glad you agree.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 02:29:25 PM
It is relevant because if the Ciprianos actually were not responsible for the disappearance of a little girl shortly before the disappearance of another little girl in the same area then who was?

I don't think one requires to be a crime investigator as a profession to work that one out and I think it must have changed village life somewhat for those who lived there with their families when analysing the situation particularly if there were strangers in town attracted by the fiesta.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 02:37:31 PM
I don’t suppose anyone has ever been convicted on the strength of their “very fluid” but completely false account of a crime they never committed?

Sorry VS I'm going to have to take issue with you on that one having watched a documentary on the Pendle Witch Trials just last night ... http://www.pendlewitches.co.uk/ ... one archaeologists excavating and investigating the period considered their treatment was akin to brainwashing.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 02:50:07 PM
anyone remember the Central Park rape case?  4 out of 5 of the defendants apprehended afterwards confessed to their part in a gang rape yet none of them was actually responsible.

Confessions
Four of the five confessed to a number of the attacks committed in the park that night, and implicated one or more of the others.[10][39] None of the five said they themselves actually raped the jogger, but each confessed to being an accomplice to the rape.[10] All five said that they themselves had only helped restrain the jogger, or touched her, while one or more others raped her.[39] Antron McCray said that a "Puerto Rican kid with a hoodie" had been the one who raped the jogger.[10] While he was incarcerated in the Rikers Island jail, Korey Wise told the older sister of a friend of his, according to her testimony, that he had only held the jogger down.[39]

Yusef Salaam made verbal admissions, but refused to sign a confession or make one on videotape. However, Salaam was implicated by all of the other four, and convicted at trial. Six others were charged with committing crimes in the park that night as well. They pleaded guilty and received sentences of six months to four and a half years.[10] On appeal, Salaam's supporters and attorneys charged that he had been held by police without access to parents or guardians. The majority appellate court decision noted that Salaam had initially lied to police in claiming to be 16, and he had backed up his claim with a transit pass that indeed (falsely, as it turned out) indicated that he was 16. When Salaam informed police of his true age, police permitted his mother to be present.[41]

Analysis indicated that the DNA collected at the crime scene did not match any of the suspects, and that it had come from a single, as yet unknown person.[2] Since no DNA evidence tied the suspects to the crime, the prosecution's case rested almost entirely on the confessions.[26] One of the suspects' supporters, Reverend Calvin O. Butts of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, told The New York Times, "The first thing you do in the United States of America when a white woman is raped is round up a bunch of black youths, and I think that's what happened here."[26]

Although the suspects (except Salaam) had confessed on videotape in the presence of a parent or guardian, they retracted their statements within weeks, claiming that they had been intimidated, lied to, and coerced into making false confessions.[2] Salaam confessed to being present only after the detective falsely told him that fingerprints had been found on the victim's clothing.[11] According to Salaam, "I would hear them beating up Korey Wise in the next room", and "they would come and look at me and say: 'You realise you're next.' The fear made me feel really like I was not going to be able to make it out."[42] While the confessions themselves were videotaped, the hours of interrogation that preceded the confessions were not.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 03:33:34 PM
A long but fascinating article about false confessions for anyone who believes that “a very fluid” reconstruction means someone is giving an accurate account of their actions

https://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/false-confessions

It brings to the fore the enormous inner strength possessed by Kate McCann to withstand such pressures.  Her driving force was knowing that without her and Gerry Madeleine was abandoned and left entirely on her own with no one looking for a 'dead' child.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 03:53:12 PM
Tis too.  Glad you agree.


Look unto thy self and wonder why no one post's.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 03:56:39 PM

Look unto thy self and wonder why no one post's.

Who isn't posting?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 04:48:14 PM

Look unto thy self and wonder why no one post's.
No one post's what? 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 14, 2019, 11:36:48 PM
No one post's what?
It has finally run its course.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Angelo222 on February 15, 2019, 12:08:35 AM
What is?  Can you please tell me what convinces you that the Ciprianos are guilty?

They admitted it   @)(++(*
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Angelo222 on February 15, 2019, 12:09:50 AM
It brings to the fore the enormous inner strength possessed by Kate McCann to withstand such pressures.  Her driving force was knowing that without her and Gerry Madeleine was abandoned and left entirely on her own with no one looking for a 'dead' child.

I agree with you that she was abandoned to her fate.  Disgraceful parenting imo.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 15, 2019, 07:14:47 AM
They admitted it   @)(++(*
Have you read the OP?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 15, 2019, 05:41:31 PM
As there is no real evidence of any crime.... Apart from the confession that was beaten out of Leonor Cipriano... I think it's highl likely she is totally innocent
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 15, 2019, 06:12:13 PM
As there is no real evidence of any crime.... Apart from the confession that was beaten out of Leonor Cipriano... I think it's highl likely she is totally innocent

What about the confession and reconstitution of João ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 15, 2019, 06:15:17 PM
What about the confession and reconstitution of João ?

Have you read the OP... You should

Despite the prosecution claims of death and dismemberment.... Not one shred of forensic evidence
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 15, 2019, 06:45:23 PM

Man who served a sentence for a crime he did not commit requires 500 thousand euros for "gross error" Armindo Castro was convicted and imprisoned for two and a half years.
By Fátima Vilaça | 05.02.19 share 559 0 1 / 4
Armindo Castro foi condenado a 20 anos de prisão CMTV 559 0
Armindo Castro was imprisoned for two years and a half for a crime he did not commit.


 The 941 days he spent behind the bars left the student of Fafe, 32, "serious psychological damage." And so, now requires the State compensation of half a million euros as a way to repair "the gross inexcusable and scandalous error" - the sentence to 20 years in jail for the murder of the aunt, Odete Castro, in Joane, Famalicão, in 2012 . The crime was to be assumed, two years later, by another man. Armindo Castro was finally acquitted as early as January 2018, but his life was not the same again. "We hoped that someone on behalf of the state would have had some contact with Armindo Castro, in order to apologize at least, to alleviate this injustice and repair this enormous error of law, but this has never happened and we have decided to proceed with this process to demand the reparation of this clamorous error of the Portuguese Justice, "explained the lawyer Paulo Gomes, who has already filed the lawsuit demanding the State compensation for the damages caused. The lawyer based his claim on the decision of the Guimarães Court - which acquitted Armindo Castro in January of last year. "It was clearly demonstrated in the ruling that the Armindo had nothing to do with this crime," he said. The homicide was committed by a couple of neighbors - Artur Gomes and Júlia Lobo -, already condemned to sentences of 20 and 18 years of prison. During the initial investigation, Armindo Castro confessed to the crime and even made a reconstitution of the murder. He then said that he did so by feeling pressured and threatened, fearing that his mother might be arrested.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castro was originally sentenced to 20 years.......
It seems some people want to turn a blind eye to this...
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 03:10:15 PM
It seems some people want to turn a blind eye to this...

What has this got to do with MBMs disappearance? is this to slag off a judicery?

how about this one?

James Hanratty (4 October 1936 – 4 April 1962), also known as the A6 Murderer, was a British criminal who was one of the final eight people in the UK to be executed before capital punishment was effectively abolished.

Innocent!  it happens everywhere, but again nothing to do with MBM disapearing while her parents were eating and drinking.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 17, 2019, 03:39:28 PM
What has this got to do with MBMs disappearance? is this to slag off a judicery?

how about this one?

James Hanratty (4 October 1936 – 4 April 1962), also known as the A6 Murderer, was a British criminal who was one of the final eight people in the UK to be executed before capital punishment was effectively abolished.

Innocent!  it happens everywhere, but again nothing to do with MBM disapearing while her parents were eating and drinking.
Quite.  “Nothing to see here!  Move along, move along!”
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 04:07:58 PM
Quite.  “Nothing to see hear!  Move along, move along!”

Oh I think plenty to see. If this thread is for the benefit of those who do not know the case and  may be of the impression that the PJ were tortuting or threatening to torture Kate, this should be explained.

Unless of course it was just to slag off anyone one or any country who just do not buy into the abduction story as told by Kate McCann.

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 17, 2019, 04:13:56 PM
Oh I think plenty to see. If this thread is for the benefit of those who do not know the case and  may be of the impression that the PJ were tortuting or threatening to torture and fit up Kate, this should be explained.

Unless of course it was just to slag off anyone one or any country who just do not buy into the abduction story as told by Kate McCann.


@)(++(* I think you have totally missed the point.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 19, 2019, 11:04:24 PM
@)(++(* I think you have totally missed the point.

Oh I don't think so. This thread is all about miscarriage of justice in Portugal.  Have the parents or MBM been the victims of such miscarriage in Portugal?

why not add miscarriage on other EU countries as well?  if you want to be seen as even handed. Cipriano has their own thread...
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 20, 2019, 07:11:05 PM
Oh I don't think so. This thread is all about miscarriage of justice in Portugal.  Have the parents or MBM been the victims of such miscarriage in Portugal?

why not add miscarriage on other EU countries as well?  if you want to be seen as even handed. Cipriano has their own thread...
This thread proves that miscarriages of justice do occur in Portugal contrary to the beliefs of at least one member of this forum and it also proves that in Portugal false confessions can be obtained under duress.  I think that is relevant to the McCann case because IF the Ciprianos gave false confessions and were not actually involved in the disappearance of Joana then that makes not one but TWO unsolved disappearsnces of young girls in a short space of time within a few miles of each other and in a sparsely populated area. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 21, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
This thread proves that miscarriages of justice do occur in Portugal contrary to the beliefs of at least one member of this forum and it also proves that in Portugal false confessions can be obtained under duress.  I think that is relevant to the McCann case because IF the Ciprianos gave false confessions and were not actually involved in the disappearance of Joana then that makes not one but TWO unsolved disappearsnces of young girls in a short space of time within a few miles of each other and in a sparsely populated area.
For those have not visited this region of Portugal, let me clarify.

There is no way that Luz could be accurately as 'sparsely populated' in May 2007.

I have never visited Figueira.  From satellite images it looks tiny, which suggests it is predominantly Portuguese, unlike Luz which is predominantly English.

I note there is a golf course nearby.  While Luz had Boa Vista golf course on the hill to the east.  Perhaps OG should be investigating a golfing abductor?

There is also a Praia da Figueira, a little way south.  Luz has its own beach on its doorstep.  Perhaps OG should investigate all beach visitors in both cases?

Figueira also has, at least, one restaurant and a shop.  Luz had many.  Perhaps OG should investigate all those going to restaurants and shops (and cafes and bars of course)?

How about rubbish removal?  Perhaps SmellyBinMan was hanging around Figueira as well?

I wish the discussion of the Cipriano case was restricted to her forum here, and not dragged into the MBM case.

The MOs are totally different.  The victims were very different.

I fail to see any significant connection.

 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 21, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
For those have not visited this region of Portugal, let me clarify.

There is no way that Luz could be accurately as 'sparsely populated' in May 2007.

I have never visited Figueira.  From satellite images it looks tiny, which suggests it is predominantly Portuguese, unlike Luz which is predominantly English.

I note there is a golf course nearby.  While Luz had Boa Vista golf course on the hill to the east.  Perhaps OG should be investigating a golfing abductor?

There is also a Praia da Figueira, a little way south.  Luz has its own beach on its doorstep.  Perhaps OG should investigate all beach visitors in both cases?

Figueira also has, at least, one restaurant and a shop.  Luz had many.  Perhaps OG should investigate all those going to restaurants and shops (and cafes and bars of course)?

How about rubbish removal?  Perhaps SmellyBinMan was hanging around Figueira as well?

I wish the discussion of the Cipriano case was restricted to her forum here, and not dragged into the MBM case.

The MOs are totally different.  The victims were very different.

I fail to see any significant connection.

there is the added connection of amaral....who may well have been wrong in both cases
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
there is the added connection of amaral....who may well have been wrong in both cases

And Cristovao, who is a downright crook.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 21, 2019, 05:55:13 PM
For those have not visited this region of Portugal, let me clarify.

There is no way that Luz could be accurately as 'sparsely populated' in May 2007.

I have never visited Figueira.  From satellite images it looks tiny, which suggests it is predominantly Portuguese, unlike Luz which is predominantly English.

I note there is a golf course nearby.  While Luz had Boa Vista golf course on the hill to the east.  Perhaps OG should be investigating a golfing abductor?

There is also a Praia da Figueira, a little way south.  Luz has its own beach on its doorstep.  Perhaps OG should investigate all beach visitors in both cases?

Figueira also has, at least, one restaurant and a shop.  Luz had many.  Perhaps OG should investigate all those going to restaurants and shops (and cafes and bars of course)?

How about rubbish removal?  Perhaps SmellyBinMan was hanging around Figueira as well?

I wish the discussion of the Cipriano case was restricted to her forum here, and not dragged into the MBM case.

The MOs are totally different.  The victims were very different.

I fail to see any significant connection.
It is relatively sparsely populated. The population density of Portugal is 112 per square km, the population density of the Algarve is 90 sq. km.  Compare this with the population density of Derbyshire of 400 per sq km.    The fact that two youg girls have disappeared into thin air within a few km of each other in the space of two years is extraordinarily rare, especially when you factor in the low population. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 21, 2019, 06:25:28 PM
And Cristovao, who is a downright crook.
The re-trial of the kidnapping/aggravated burglary case started last Monday & is scheduled to last for around 4 months.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2019, 06:30:12 PM
The re-trial of the kidnapping/aggravated burglary case started last Monday & is scheduled to last for around 4 months.

Thanks for that information.  Thank goodness I haven't been holding my breath.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 22, 2019, 10:33:42 AM
It is relatively sparsely populated. The population density of Portugal is 112 per square km, the population density of the Algarve is 90 sq. km.  Compare this with the population density of Derbyshire of 400 per sq km.    The fact that two youg girls have disappeared into thin air within a few km of each other in the space of two years is extraordinarily rare, especially when you factor in the low population.
What has your post got to do with reality?

I don't care what the population density of the Algarve, Portugal or Derbyshire is, because it is comparing apples to elephants.  I dare say New York, London, Hong Kong, or Singapore have much higher population densities, but so what?  The 'disappearances' did not happen there, did they?

I have stacked up a trip to Figueira to have a nose about.  To find out if it different to Lisbon, Porto, Portimão, Lagos and Sagres.

If anyone has any requests for photos, this is the time to pipe up.  My 'partner in crime' is starting a new job soon, so we have to crack on with it.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 22, 2019, 11:37:08 AM
What has your post got to do with reality?

I don't care what the population density of the Algarve, Portugal or Derbyshire is, because it is comparing apples to elephants.  I dare say New York, London, Hong Kong, or Singapore have much higher population densities, but so what?  The 'disappearances' did not happen there, did they?

I have stacked up a trip to Figueira to have a nose about.  To find out if it different to Lisbon, Porto, Portimão, Lagos and Sagres.

If anyone has any requests for photos, this is the time to pipe up.  My 'partner in crime' is starting a new job soon, so we have to crack on with it.

I think there is a reality inherent in the vanishing without a trace of two little girls from places which are very close to each other ... not forgetting the crimes committed in surrounding areas against little girls while their parents slept oblivious under the same roof.

Not apples or oranges or even elephants ... the comparison involves two little girls whose vanishing in time and place must surely be considered of some relevance and be at least worthy of consideration as being connected.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 22, 2019, 01:36:59 PM
I think there is a reality inherent in the vanishing without a trace of two little girls from places which are very close to each other ... not forgetting the crimes committed in surrounding areas against little girls while their parents slept oblivious under the same roof.

Not apples or oranges or even elephants ... the comparison involves two little girls whose vanishing in time and place must surely be considered of some relevance and be at least worthy of consideration as being connected.
Perhaps I should drop in to the forum a link to the top 15 unsolved murders in the UK.  The first two were from Fulham.  Possibly this makes Fulham the crime capital of the UK, but somehow I doubt it.

Let me tell you two real life stories from life here on the Algarve.

Story 1.  I was walking down Primary School Street in Luz, presumably to check out something about the Smith sighting.  As I passed the primary school, a small child started up a conversation with me.  From behind the school perimeter fence, which he was climbing up like a monkey.

It is easy to tell if children are Portuguese, on sight, and he was.  Equally, it is easy to tell if people are non-Portuguese, so the little boy 'clocked' me instantly, and we had a short exchange, all in fluent English.

Primary school.  He spoke to me in high quality English.  He recognised me as non-Portuguese.

Story 2 is much more recent.  We have a primary school in our village, and a church.  As far I could tell, neither was in active use.  However, when I took my grandchildren around for an 'adventure' the primary school was stuffed with people.  Behind the perimeter fence, the playground was buzzing with football, kids on scooters.  At the entrance to the school, perhaps 20m away, there is a patio.  The parents were sitting there, eating, drinking, conversing.

My grandson had been mithering because he had no friends to play with.  Now we welcome his Portuguese friends into our property.

ANALYSIS

Cipriano v Madeleine?

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 22, 2019, 01:48:13 PM
Perhaps I should drop in to the forum a link to the top 15 unsolved murders in the UK.  The first two were from Fulham.  Possibly this makes Fulham the crime capital of the UK, but somehow I doubt it.

Let me tell you two real life stories from life here on the Algarve.

Story 1.  I was walking down Primary School Street in Luz, presumably to check out something about the Smith sighting.  As I passed the primary school, a small child started up a conversation with me.  From behind the school perimeter fence, which he was climbing up like a monkey.

It is easy to tell if children are Portuguese, on sight, and he was.  Equally, it is easy to tell if people are non-Portuguese, so the little boy 'clocked' me instantly, and we had a short exchange, all in fluent English.

Primary school.  He spoke to me in high quality English.  He recognised me as non-Portuguese.

Story 2 is much more recent.  We have a primary school in our village, and a church.  As far I could tell, neither was in active use.  However, when I took my grandchildren around for an 'adventure' the primary school was stuffed with people.  Behind the perimeter fence, the playground was buzzing with football, kids on scooters.  At the entrance to the school, perhaps 20m away, there is a patio.  The parents were sitting there, eating, drinking, conversing.

My grandson had been mithering because he had no friends to play with.  Now we welcome his Portuguese friends into our property.

ANALYSIS

Cipriano v Madeleine?

I am sorry ... I do not see the relevance of your 'ANALYSIS' to miscarriage of justice in Portugal.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 22, 2019, 04:25:52 PM
I am sorry ... I do not see the relevance of your 'ANALYSIS' to miscarriage of justice in Portugal.
Don't worry.  I never thought that you would.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 22, 2019, 06:01:39 PM
What has your post got to do with reality?

I don't care what the population density of the Algarve, Portugal or Derbyshire is, because it is comparing apples to elephants.  I dare say New York, London, Hong Kong, or Singapore have much higher population densities, but so what?  The 'disappearances' did not happen there, did they?

I have stacked up a trip to Figueira to have a nose about.  To find out if it different to Lisbon, Porto, Portimão, Lagos and Sagres.

If anyone has any requests for photos, this is the time to pipe up.  My 'partner in crime' is starting a new job soon, so we have to crack on with it.
No, the disappearances didn’t happen in high density population areas like New York, London, Hong Kong or Singapore.  That is precisely my point.   Two girls disappearing in New York two years apart is less noteworthy IMO than two girls going missing in a much less densely populated or urban area in the same time scale.  I don’t care if you want to rubbish my opinion, feel free.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 22, 2019, 06:07:43 PM
Perhaps I should drop in to the forum a link to the top 15 unsolved murders in the UK.  The first two were from Fulham.  Possibly this makes Fulham the crime capital of the UK, but somehow I doubt it.

Let me tell you two real life stories from life here on the Algarve.

Story 1.  I was walking down Primary School Street in Luz, presumably to check out something about the Smith sighting.  As I passed the primary school, a small child started up a conversation with me.  From behind the school perimeter fence, which he was climbing up like a monkey.

It is easy to tell if children are Portuguese, on sight, and he was.  Equally, it is easy to tell if people are non-Portuguese, so the little boy 'clocked' me instantly, and we had a short exchange, all in fluent English.

Primary school.  He spoke to me in high quality English.  He recognised me as non-Portuguese.

Story 2 is much more recent.  We have a primary school in our village, and a church.  As far I could tell, neither was in active use.  However, when I took my grandchildren around for an 'adventure' the primary school was stuffed with people.  Behind the perimeter fence, the playground was buzzing with football, kids on scooters.  At the entrance to the school, perhaps 20m away, there is a patio.  The parents were sitting there, eating, drinking, conversing.

My grandson had been mithering because he had no friends to play with.  Now we welcome his Portuguese friends into our property.

ANALYSIS

Cipriano v Madeleine?
How horrifying! Where were the teachers in whose care this “monkey” child was entrusted?  You could have been a paedo!
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 23, 2019, 01:14:22 AM
How horrifying! Where were the teachers in whose care this “monkey” child was entrusted?  You could have been a paedo!


The child was INSIDE the security fence.  I was OUTSIDE the security fence.

Quelle domage.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 23, 2019, 07:16:15 AM

The child was INSIDE the security fence.  I was OUTSIDE the security fence.

Quelle domage.
You said the child was climbing the fence “like a monkey”.  A paedo could have enticed him over with “would you like to see my puppy” couldn’t he?  Even if not, I would be horrified to discover that my young child had been in conversation with a male stranger passerby whilst he was in the playground, especially in Praia da Luz of all places!
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 23, 2019, 12:01:04 PM
You said the child was climbing the fence “like a monkey”.  A paedo could have enticed him over with “would you like to see my puppy” couldn’t he?  Even if not, I would be horrified to discover that my young child had been in conversation with a male stranger passerby whilst he was in the playground, especially in Praia da Luz of all places!
Oh dear, this is really scraping the barrel!

You mean, I am not permitted to converse with a schoolchild in Luz?  Should I have ignored him after he initiated the conversation?  To do so would have been incredibly rude or maleducado - badly educated.

Perhaps his parents should have told him to never talk to strangers?  Perhaps the school staff should have stopped his playing? Perhaps, as you imply that Luz is a paedo hell-hole they should shut the primary school down? Presumably along with kindergarden on the street adjoining block 5?  Or why not just flatten the whole of Luz, and the whole of Figueira, and be done with it?

I can't say you are clutching at straws here, because there isn't a straw to clutch.

Perhaps you live in some grey hell-hole in the UK where correct procedure is to ignore small children when they talk to you?

I was living in Luz, and I am not maleducado to ignore a young child.  Here we look out for our kids, somewhat Neighbourhood Watch-ish.  Perhaps the McCanns should have done the same?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 23, 2019, 12:26:06 PM
Oh dear, this is really scraping the barrel!

You mean, I am not permitted to converse with a schoolchild in Luz?  Should I have ignored him after he initiated the conversation?  To do so would have been incredibly rude or maleducado - badly educated.

Perhaps his parents should have told him to never talk to strangers?  Perhaps the school staff should have stopped his playing? Perhaps, as you imply that Luz is a paedo hell-hole they should shut the primary school down? Presumably along with kindergarden on the street adjoining block 5?  Or why not just flatten the whole of Luz, and the whole of Figueira, and be done with it?

I can't say you are clutching at straws here, because there isn't a straw to clutch.

Perhaps you live in some grey hell-hole in the UK where correct procedure is to ignore small children when they talk to you?

I was living in Luz, and I am not maleducado to ignore a young child.  Here we look out for our kids, somewhat Neighbourhood Watch-ish.  Perhaps the McCanns should have done the same?

Isn’t it ironic that if Madeleine had left the apartment that her only chance of getting to safety would be to talk to an adult who was a stranger to her?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: John on February 23, 2019, 04:51:17 PM
Oh dear, this is really scraping the barrel!

You mean, I am not permitted to converse with a schoolchild in Luz?  Should I have ignored him after he initiated the conversation?  To do so would have been incredibly rude or maleducado - badly educated.

Perhaps his parents should have told him to never talk to strangers?  Perhaps the school staff should have stopped his playing? Perhaps, as you imply that Luz is a paedo hell-hole they should shut the primary school down? Presumably along with kindergarden on the street adjoining block 5?  Or why not just flatten the whole of Luz, and the whole of Figueira, and be done with it?

I can't say you are clutching at straws here, because there isn't a straw to clutch.

Perhaps you live in some grey hell-hole in the UK where correct procedure is to ignore small children when they talk to you?

I was living in Luz, and I am not maleducado to ignore a young child.  Here we look out for our kids, somewhat Neighbourhood Watch-ish.  Perhaps the McCanns should have done the same?

In the UK men in particular have become so brainwashed by the media that having a conversation in public with any child is a red flag.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 23, 2019, 05:37:33 PM
Oh dear, this is really scraping the barrel!

You mean, I am not permitted to converse with a schoolchild in Luz?  Should I have ignored him after he initiated the conversation?  To do so would have been incredibly rude or maleducado - badly educated.

Perhaps his parents should have told him to never talk to strangers?  Perhaps the school staff should have stopped his playing? Perhaps, as you imply that Luz is a paedo hell-hole they should shut the primary school down? Presumably along with kindergarden on the street adjoining block 5?  Or why not just flatten the whole of Luz, and the whole of Figueira, and be done with it?

I can't say you are clutching at straws here, because there isn't a straw to clutch.

Perhaps you live in some grey hell-hole in the UK where correct procedure is to ignore small children when they talk to you?

I was living in Luz, and I am not maleducado to ignore a young child.  Here we look out for our kids, somewhat Neighbourhood Watch-ish.  Perhaps the McCanns should have done the same?
You are being either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid IMO.  Strange men talking to young children as they play in the playground would be seen as a major red flag in the grey hell hole that us Britain, maybe it should be in Portugal as well.  Would you really be happy to learn that one your grandchildren was engaging in an unsupervised conversation with a complete stranger whilst in the school playground?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 24, 2019, 02:00:12 PM
You are being either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid IMO.  Strange men talking to young children as they play in the playground would be seen as a major red flag in the grey hell hole that us Britain, maybe it should be in Portugal as well.  Would you really be happy to learn that one your grandchildren was engaging in an unsupervised conversation with a complete stranger whilst in the school playground?

There you go with the name calling...When we went on holiday to Italy me and my sister would walk to the square where the older men played draughs, they would chat to us and loet us along with other Italian children move their markers- they biught us icecream as well. I got lost once,running out of a shop and turned the wrong way- and one of them led me back to the quare. Are all men in the UK paedophiles? heavens! How Gross. My papa must be out there raping kids in playgrounds...
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 24, 2019, 05:16:46 PM
There you go with the name calling...When we went on holiday to Italy me and my sister would walk to the square where the older men played draughs, they would chat to us and loet us along with other Italian children move their markers- they biught us icecream as well. I got lost once,running out of a shop and turned the wrong way- and one of them led me back to the quare. Are all men in the UK paedophiles? heavens! How Gross. My papa must be out there raping kids in playgrounds...

I’m afraid that’s the legacy of cases like the McCann case.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2019, 05:31:48 PM
There you go with the name calling...When we went on holiday to Italy me and my sister would walk to the square where the older men played draughs, they would chat to us and loet us along with other Italian children move their markers- they biught us icecream as well. I got lost once,running out of a shop and turned the wrong way- and one of them led me back to the quare. Are all men in the UK paedophiles? heavens! How Gross. My papa must be out there raping kids in playgrounds...
Are you the same person who thinks it is neglectful to leave small children asleep in their beds in an unlocked apartment?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2019, 06:59:08 PM
Let’s put it this way: if there are kids playing in the yard at school and one engages in conversation with a passing male stranger should the supervising teacher encourage the child, turn a blind eye or tell the child to stop and come away from the man?  What would you do if you were the teacher in charge?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2019, 07:12:41 PM
In those circumstances, I would attempt to engage in conversation with this male.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2019, 08:48:26 PM
In those circumstances, I would attempt to engage in conversation with this male.
For what reason?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 24, 2019, 08:55:54 PM
For what reason?

To see what it was all about, rather than jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 24, 2019, 08:58:38 PM
To see what it was all about, rather than jumping to conclusions.
So not because of any concern over the safety of the children in your charge?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: jassi on February 25, 2019, 08:29:10 AM
So not because of any concern over the safety of the children in your charge?

Certainly not until the situation had been assessed. That's what someone with a clear head would do - IMO
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 25, 2019, 11:20:08 AM
Let’s put it this way: if there are kids playing in the yard at school and one engages in conversation with a passing male stranger should the supervising teacher encourage the child, turn a blind eye or tell the child to stop and come away from the man?  What would you do if you were the teacher in charge?
I didn't notice a supervising teacher, so there might have been one, or not.  I actually find the notion of children being 'supervised' at playtime rather odd, and in truth, somewhat creepy.

Here's another true event.  Two of his friends from the village that our grandson met a couple of weeks ago came down to play with him and his younger brother.  We have a trampoline, with a safety net enclosing it.  I was going out for a walk with my dog Gonçalo.  The village friends appear to be Portuguese.  While the children frolicked on the trampoline, they chatted to each other in very animated Portuguese, and I couldn't understand a word.  It was much too fast for me.

When I got back from my walk, it was fast getting dark.  Our grandchildren's father told his kids it was time for the pair to come in, and it was time for their two friends to go home.  The Portuguese lads came racing up behind me to get their bicycles to go home.  I told them, in English, it was OK to leave our security gate open, because I would shut it.  One of the children told me in very polite, fluent English, that I need not worry, then he shut the gate and went home.

Perhaps I should have abandoned my dog walk to 'supervise' the children on the trampoline, as their parents were not in sight?  Perhaps I should not have talked to two well-educated children, who's names I do not know? 

What does it take to be normal in darkest Derbyshire?  Don't you people feel an obligation to look after your children?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 25, 2019, 12:21:10 PM
Let’s put it this way: if there are kids playing in the yard at school and one engages in conversation with a passing male stranger should the supervising teacher encourage the child, turn a blind eye or tell the child to stop and come away from the man?  What would you do if you were the teacher in charge?



Here there are always at least two members of staff, not always from the teaching staff, who interact with the children at break times.
Their contribution is invaluable, encouraging the shyer children to join in the games, helping any child who falls or becomes unwell, encouraging good behaviour and fair play etc.
If one of these members of staff saw any adult talking to a child, then he or she would approach the child and join in the conversation to find out who the adult was.
If indeed this person was an unknown adult , the child would be encouraged to return to the other children.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 25, 2019, 01:44:47 PM


Here there are always at least two members of staff, not always from the teaching staff, who interact with the children at break times.
Their contribution is invaluable, encouraging the shyer children to join in the games, helping any child who falls or becomes unwell, encouraging good behaviour and fair play etc.
If one of these members of staff saw any adult talking to a child, then he or she would approach the child and join in the conversation to find out who the adult was.
If indeed this person was an unknown adult , the child would be encouraged to return to the other children.

Attitudes in Britain have been shaped by the fate of children taken by serial killers such as Hindley ~ Brady ~ Black.

My children were never allowed the freedoms to roam that my parents allowed me and I know for a fact that the Dunblane school massacre of children and teachers has hardened opinion against strangers taking any liberties whatsoever in or near school premises.

The unthinkable happened and now due diligence is exercised by all to minimise the opportunities for it to happen again.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 25, 2019, 06:02:17 PM
I didn't notice a supervising teacher, so there might have been one, or not.  I actually find the notion of children being 'supervised' at playtime rather odd, and in truth, somewhat creepy.

Here's another true event.  Two of his friends from the village that our grandson met a couple of weeks ago came down to play with him and his younger brother.  We have a trampoline, with a safety net enclosing it.  I was going out for a walk with my dog Gonçalo.  The village friends appear to be Portuguese.  While the children frolicked on the trampoline, they chatted to each other in very animated Portuguese, and I couldn't understand a word.  It was much too fast for me.

When I got back from my walk, it was fast getting dark.  Our grandchildren's father told his kids it was time for the pair to come in, and it was time for their two friends to go home.  The Portuguese lads came racing up behind me to get their bicycles to go home.  I told them, in English, it was OK to leave our security gate open, because I would shut it.  One of the children told me in very polite, fluent English, that I need not worry, then he shut the gate and went home.

Perhaps I should have abandoned my dog walk to 'supervise' the children on the trampoline, as their parents were not in sight?  Perhaps I should not have talked to two well-educated children, who's names I do not know? 

What does it take to be normal in darkest Derbyshire?  Don't you people feel an obligation to look after your children?
What an extraordinarily bizarre post.  You think playground supervisors are creepy but think it perfectly acceptable for children to be able to hold conversations with complete strangers in he playground.  Furthermore, you end your post by asking whether or not I feel an obligation to look after my children.  Well, derrrr.  If I knew my kids had been approached in the playground by a complete stranger I would be straight into the headmaster’s like a shot.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 25, 2019, 06:05:56 PM
Certainly not until the situation had been assessed. That's what someone with a clear head would do - IMO
Oh FGS, of course “assessing the situation “ would be out of a sense of concern for the safety of the children in their care.  Why else?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 25, 2019, 06:26:38 PM
What an extraordinarily bizarre post.  You think playground supervisors are creepy but think it perfectly acceptable for children to be able to hold conversations with complete strangers in he playground.  Furthermore, you end your post by asking whether or not I feel an obligation to look after my children.  Well, derrrr.  If I knew my kids had been approached in the playground by a complete stranger I would be straight into the headmaster’s like a shot.

Here the playground gates are locked during break times.
The only way an adult could speak to a child would be through the fencing surrounding the playground and this would be noted and discouraged.
Impossible to approach a child in the playground.
And rightly so!
As Brietta posted the tragedy of Dunblane altered forever the security in schools.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2019, 10:16:52 AM
What an extraordinarily bizarre post.  You think playground supervisors are creepy but think it perfectly acceptable for children to be able to hold conversations with complete strangers in he playground.  Furthermore, you end your post by asking whether or not I feel an obligation to look after my children.  Well, derrrr.  If I knew my kids had been approached in the playground by a complete stranger I would be straight into the headmaster’s like a shot.
What a bizarre stance!

Let me clarify, yet again.  I approached no-one.  The young boy initiated a conversation.

You still see this as an issue.  From the above, the headmaster would be found 'guilty' for the actions of your child.   That reeks of blame shifting from your child and yourself to a 3rd party.

We don't build our schools like concentration camps here.  Perhaps the UK now does.  Should every school perimeter fence be torn fence be torn down and replaced with solid 2m high fences to stop a young child from starting such a conversation?  Or perhaps an exclusion zone of, say 50m, around the outside for anyone 'unknown', (including 'creepy' parents)?

I'll leave you to be rude to such a small child.  Here we look after our kids, not teach them to be anti-social.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2019, 10:33:41 AM
Here the playground gates are locked during break times.
The only way an adult could speak to a child would be through the fencing surrounding the playground and this would be noted and discouraged.
Impossible to approach a child in the playground.
And rightly so!
As Brietta posted the tragedy of Dunblane altered forever the security in schools.
While here we use metal grill fencing that is 2m high and is mass-produced as standard.  You can go to Google streetview and check the school out for yourself.

I have no idea if the school PERIMETER fence gets locked or not.  I was on the OUTSIDE walking down the street while the child was on the INSIDE.  I had no reason to check the gates.

Let me leave UK residents with a Dunblane mentality.  It sounds to me akin to the idea of arming all teachers in the US to prevent another school massacre there.  I don't want to live in either type of mentality.

Here we look after our kids.  The McCanns chose not to.   *&^^&
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2019, 10:35:46 AM
What a bizarre stance!

Let me clarify, yet again.  I approached no-one.  The young boy initiated a conversation.

You still see this as an issue.  From the above, the headmaster would be found 'guilty' for the actions of your child.   That reeks of blame shifting from your child and yourself to a 3rd party.

We don't build our schools like concentration camps here.  Perhaps the UK now does.  Should every school perimeter fence be torn fence be torn down and replaced with solid 2m high fences to stop a young child from starting such a conversation?  Or perhaps an exclusion zone of, say 50m, around the outside for anyone 'unknown', (including 'creepy' parents)?

I'll leave you to be rude to such a small child.  Here we look after our kids, not teach them to be anti-social.

And then children get sexually assaulted and abducted.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 10:35:50 AM
While here we use metal grill fencing that is 2m high and is mass-produced as standard.  You can go to Google streetview and check the school out for yourself.

I have no idea if the school PERIMETER fence gets locked or not.  I was on the OUTSIDE walking down the street while the child was on the INSIDE.  I had no reason to check the gates.

Let me leave UK residents with a Dunblane mentality.  It sounds to me akin to the idea of arming all teachers in the US to prevent another school massacre there.  I don't want to live in either type of mentality.

Here we look after our kids.  The McCanns chose not to.   *&^^&

So there is no poor parenting in Portugal... No child abuse...You need to wake up... The Portuguese need to look after their children a little more

Abuse. Portugal is ranked among the three countries with the highest rate of infant deaths from ill treatment: 90% of abused children ...
https://www.humanium.org/en/portugal/



Many children from Brazil, Eastern Europe and Africa are sent to Portugal. They are used in the hotel industry, for domestic work and prostitution. These children typically suffer ill treatment and sexual abuse.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2019, 11:21:35 AM
So there is no poor parenting in Portugal... No child abuse...You need to wake up... The Portuguese need to look after their children a little more

Abuse. Portugal is ranked among the three countries with the highest rate of infant deaths from ill treatment: 90% of abused children ...
https://www.humanium.org/en/portugal/



Many children from Brazil, Eastern Europe and Africa are sent to Portugal. They are used in the hotel industry, for domestic work and prostitution. These children typically suffer ill treatment and sexual abuse.
WOW! An undated report from an NGO that started in 2008, and which appears to applied its own standards for things like 'poverty'.  There is almost nothing in that report that is relevant.  We were discussing an incident in Luz primary school street, not conditions in Lisbon, Porto or the north.  And the child was not a Roma child.  Nor was he from Brazil, Eastern Europe, or Africa.  He wasn't working.  He was in a primary school.  He was well-fed, well clothed and educated.

Here we look after our kids, unlike the McCanns.  Simple as.

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 11:31:25 AM
WOW! An undated report from an NGO that started in 2008, and which appears to applied its own standards for things like 'poverty'.  There is almost nothing in that report that is relevant.  We were discussing an incident in Luz primary school street, not conditions in Lisbon, Porto or the north.  And the child was not a Roma child.  Nor was he from Brazil, Eastern Europe, or Africa.  He wasn't working.  He was in a primary school.  He was well-fed, well clothed and educated.

Here we look after our kids, unlike the McCanns.  Simple as.

Portugal does not have a good record in looking after children... You need to accept that
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2019, 11:41:04 AM
Portugal does not have a good record in looking after children... You need to accept that
The incident was on the Algarve.  You need to accept that.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
The incident was on the Algarve.  You need to accept that.
It's Portugal...a Haven for paedophiles, I seen to remember was, a, term used

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488654/Why-Portugal-haven-paedophiles--disturbing-backcloth-Madeleine-case.html



It is crucial for two reasons; first because it proves what international crime agencies have long suspected: that Portugal has become a magnet for predatory paedophiles from around the world, using the country's lax laws and preying on the high numbers of poor, abandoned children.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 26, 2019, 12:08:24 PM
It's Portugal...a Haven for paedophiles, I seen to remember was, a, term used

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488654/Why-Portugal-haven-paedophiles--disturbing-backcloth-Madeleine-case.html



It is crucial for two reasons; first because it proves what international crime agencies have long suspected: that Portugal has become a magnet for predatory paedophiles from around the world, using the country's lax laws and preying on the high numbers of poor, abandoned children.

Another Daily Mail headline.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6124993/Home-Secretary-fires-warnings-sexual-predators-80-000-paedophiles-operate-Britain.html

Sounds very much like a ‘haven’ to me.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 26, 2019, 12:34:40 PM
It's Portugal...a Haven for paedophiles, I seen to remember was, a, term used

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488654/Why-Portugal-haven-paedophiles--disturbing-backcloth-Madeleine-case.html



It is crucial for two reasons; first because it proves what international crime agencies have long suspected: that Portugal has become a magnet for predatory paedophiles from around the world, using the country's lax laws and preying on the high numbers of poor, abandoned children.
Why do you keep saying Portugal?  Madeleine disappeared in a wealthy community IN THE ALGARVE.  I have now lived here for 7 years, and never once have I seen a destitute, abandoned child.

I know where the nearest orphanage is, and it is not 'bulging' with children in need.  I don't know if they were poor or abandoned.  The news report was about a fairly expensive make-over to the orphanage, perhaps about 18 months ago.  One of the contributors was a couple who's son had been killed in a motorbike smash on the EN125, not far from Luz.

One of the questions one has to answer is the Madeleine case is excruciatingly simple.  Why Madeleine?  If the Algarve was allegedly stuffed with homeless children and paedophiles, why risk abducting Madeleine?  It makes no sense.  Why not take an easier target?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 12:57:28 PM
Why do you keep saying Portugal?  Madeleine disappeared in a wealthy community IN THE ALGARVE.  I have now lived here for 7 years, and never once have I seen a destitute, abandoned child.

I know where the nearest orphanage is, and it is not 'bulging' with children in need.  I don't know if they were poor or abandoned.  The news report was about a fairly expensive make-over to the orphanage, perhaps about 18 months ago.  One of the contributors was a couple who's son had been killed in a motorbike smash on the EN125, not far from Luz.

One of the questions one has to answer is the Madeleine case is excruciatingly simple.  Why Madeleine?  If the Algarve was allegedly stuffed with homeless children and paedophiles, why risk abducting Madeleine?  It makes no sense.  Why not take an easier target?

It's all down to chance... You can't discount abduction purely on the argument... Why Madeleine... An easier target.... Someone like Joanna Cipriano
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 26, 2019, 02:33:03 PM
It's all down to chance... You can't discount abduction purely on the argument... Why Madeleine... An easier target.... Someone like Joanna Cipriano

But you can discount abduction from the bedroom- no evidence.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 02:37:19 PM
But you can discount abduction from the bedroom- no evidence.

Absolutely  not
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 26, 2019, 02:39:34 PM
Absolutely  not

Care to share?

What evidence is this then?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 02:43:22 PM
Care to share?

What evidence is this then?

You can't discount abduction due to absence of forensic evidence found... It may have been just a very poor search by the pj
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 26, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
Portugal does not have a good record in looking after children... You need to accept that


The McCanns don't have  very good record in looking after their children...

There is no evidence to support Kate and Gerrys account of what they say happened. NONE.
Even JT's 'sighting' has been washed away in the  story telling tide.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 03:14:38 PM

The McCanns don't have  very good record in looking after their children...

There is no evidence to support Kate and Gerrys account of what they say happened. NONE.
Even JT's 'sighting' has been washed away in the  story telling tide.

And there us none to support amarals version either... Amaral won his case in a country whose courts think that a violent rapist who raped someone v and a.... Does not deserve to be jailed... And a women who was beaten by her husband was to blame because the bible says adulterers should be punished... What, a disgrace the courts, are
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2019, 03:15:57 PM
Why do you keep saying Portugal?  Madeleine disappeared in a wealthy community IN THE ALGARVE.  I have now lived here for 7 years, and never once have I seen a destitute, abandoned child.

I know where the nearest orphanage is, and it is not 'bulging' with children in need.  I don't know if they were poor or abandoned.  The news report was about a fairly expensive make-over to the orphanage, perhaps about 18 months ago.  One of the contributors was a couple who's son had been killed in a motorbike smash on the EN125, not far from Luz.

One of the questions one has to answer is the Madeleine case is excruciatingly simple.  Why Madeleine?  If the Algarve was allegedly stuffed with homeless children and paedophiles, why risk abducting Madeleine?  It makes no sense.  Why not take an easier target?

It's quite simple.  Anyone contracting to buy a child wants a child who has been well nurtured.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2019, 03:17:22 PM
But you can discount abduction from the bedroom- no evidence.

No Evidence has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 26, 2019, 03:17:49 PM
It's quite simple.  Anyone contracting to buy a child wants a child who has been well nurtured.

The daughter of two doctors to boot
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Eleanor on February 26, 2019, 03:18:56 PM

The McCanns don't have  very good record in looking after their children...

There is no evidence to support Kate and Gerrys account of what they say happened. NONE.
Even JT's 'sighting' has been washed away in the  story telling tide.

No it hasn't.  Please stop offering Opinion as Fact.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 26, 2019, 04:52:08 PM
While here we use metal grill fencing that is 2m high and is mass-produced as standard.  You can go to Google streetview and check the school out for yourself.

I have no idea if the school PERIMETER fence gets locked or not.  I was on the OUTSIDE walking down the street while the child was on the INSIDE.  I had no reason to check the gates.

Let me leave UK residents with a Dunblane mentality.  It sounds to me akin to the idea of arming all teachers in the US to prevent another school massacre there.  I don't want to live in either type of mentality.

Here we look after our kids.  The McCanns chose not to.   *&^^&



I taught for many years  with the consequences of the aftermath of the "Dunblane mentality" and also witnesssed on my television the horror of Dunblane.

The first time I took my class to the gymn hall after that massacre, I found it difficult to conduct the gymn lesson.

Here people do look after their children, I personally hate the use of the word "kids".

The shock and horror of what happened to those children and their teacher will live in my memory and those of the people of Scotland and indeed throughout the world.

Perhaps at some time you should consider that if an atrocity could happen in a little quiet village in Scotland, then it could also happen in your Utopia.

The changes in security have made no difference to the children in either their work or play..
As to the suggestion that these security measures are " akin to arming  teachers", I find that a particularly insensitive comment when it was the fact that an armed deranged individual who was able to walk into a little village school and carry out such a heinous massacre.
If it could happen in Dunblane Scotland, then it could happen anywhere, including your beloved Portugal!!



Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 26, 2019, 06:31:10 PM
What a bizarre stance!

Let me clarify, yet again.  I approached no-one.  The young boy initiated a conversation.

You still see this as an issue.  From the above, the headmaster would be found 'guilty' for the actions of your child.   That reeks of blame shifting from your child and yourself to a 3rd party.

We don't build our schools like concentration camps here.  Perhaps the UK now does.  Should every school perimeter fence be torn fence be torn down and replaced with solid 2m high fences to stop a young child from starting such a conversation?  Or perhaps an exclusion zone of, say 50m, around the outside for anyone 'unknown', (including 'creepy' parents)?

I'll leave you to be rude to such a small child.  Here we look after our kids, not teach them to be anti-social.
You really are beyond reasonable discussion now.  Did I suggest schools should have 2 metre high fences of 50 metre exclusion zones?  No.  I suggested that playground supervisors should supervise kids and make sure they don’t get in harm’s way.  Climbing fences like “monkeys “ to talk to strange men would be one such activity a playground supervisor should be discouraging.  You’ve made it very clear you disagree with the notion of primary school kids being supervised at playtime, and have gone so far as to say it’s creepy.  Well, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world go round...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 26, 2019, 06:33:47 PM
But you can discount abduction from the bedroom- no evidence.
the sad case of Alesha McPhail proves you are wrong.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 26, 2019, 09:54:28 PM
The daughter of two doctors to boot

I’ve heard it all now.



Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 26, 2019, 10:36:38 PM
I’ve heard it all now.


Strange you didn’t show up as being online but still managed to edit my post. Why have you started to hide your on line status Brietta ?
Says the phantom Faithlilly who always hides hers!  @)(++(*
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 27, 2019, 10:52:21 AM


I taught for many years  with the consequences of the aftermath of the "Dunblane mentality" and also witnesssed on my television the horror of Dunblane.

The first time I took my class to the gymn hall after that massacre, I found it difficult to conduct the gymn lesson.

Here people do look after their children, I personally hate the use of the word "kids".

The shock and horror of what happened to those children and their teacher will live in my memory and those of the people of Scotland and indeed throughout the world.

Perhaps at some time you should consider that if an atrocity could happen in a little quiet village in Scotland, then it could also happen in your Utopia.

The changes in security have made no difference to the children in either their work or play..
As to the suggestion that these security measures are " akin to arming  teachers", I find that a particularly insensitive comment when it was the fact that an armed deranged individual who was able to walk into a little village school and carry out such a heinous massacre.
If it could happen in Dunblane Scotland, then it could happen anywhere, including your beloved Portugal!!
You have missed the point entirely.

The gun advocates in the US have stated, after several school massacres, that the solution is arming all school teachers and, presumably, training them how to kill people.

I am of the opinion that I want teachers to teach, not to learn how to kill.  Here all teachers are called professor or professora.  I only know which is the equivalent of a UK Professor if I find out they teach in a university.

I cannot see Dunblane as having any relevance whatsoever as to whether I should have replied to a friendly schoolchild in Luz.

Here we look after our kids.  The McCanns didn't.  Simple.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 27, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
You really are beyond reasonable discussion now.  Did I suggest schools should have 2 metre high fences of 50 metre exclusion zones?  No.  I suggested that playground supervisors should supervise kids and make sure they don’t get in harm’s way.  Climbing fences like “monkeys “ to talk to strange men would be one such activity a playground supervisor should be discouraging.  You’ve made it very clear you disagree with the notion of primary school kids being supervised at playtime, and have gone so far as to say it’s creepy.  Well, I guess it takes all sorts to make a world go round...  @)(++(*


Indeed it does!
I must inform my daughter in law, who is a teacher and as part of her duties as a depute head will sometimes take part in the supervising of the children in the playground, that her sterling care of  the children is considered by some to be "creepy"
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 27, 2019, 11:01:08 AM
I’ve heard it all now.
I believe Clarence Mitchell came up with this stupid notion on one of the 10th anniversary specials.  Shortly before he claimed the PIs were acting legally, then technically illegally, then claiming that this was one of obstacles to the McCanns investigation.  Quite farcical.

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 11:05:44 AM
I believe Clarence Mitchell came up with this stupid notion on one of the 10th anniversary specials.  Shortly before he claimed the PIs were acting legally, then technically illegally, then claiming that this was one of obstacles to the McCanns investigation.  Quite farcical.

Indeed. The idea that a child would be abducted because their parents were both doctors is simply laughable.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 27, 2019, 12:17:02 PM
I believe Clarence Mitchell came up with this stupid notion on one of the 10th anniversary specials.  Shortly before he claimed the PIs were acting legally, then technically illegally, then claiming that this was one of obstacles to the McCanns investigation.  Quite farcical.
You so often post the most clearly misunderstood opinions gained from snatching at entirely the wrong end of the stick on just about everything.

Your predilection for rubbishing the efforts past and present of anyone attempting to further Madeleine's case either by means of the media or by the means of using private detectives at a time when absolutely no one in either in British or Portuguese officialdom was the least bit bothered is palpable.

But possibly nothing ... absolutely nothing ... illustrates your total ignorance than your opinion on the national trauma suffered in Scotland as a result of the Dunblane massacre.

A quick read of the situation regarding the gun laws of the US and Britain should clarify matters a little just as contemplation of the speed with which it is sometimes necessary for schools to have lock down procedures in place such as when Lee Rigby was murdered nearby.

The teachers still teach.  The pupils still study in probable ignorance of all the efforts which are in place for their security.

I think there may be more security measures and surveillance of the children while on Portuguese school premises than you may be aware of and if there isn't perhaps there should be.

Snip
Thanks to North and other campaigning parents, each of the handguns Hamilton used is now illegal to possess in Britain. The Gun Control Network, of which North was a founding member, was a crucial voice in the fight to stop more children dying in gun massacres.
__________________________________________________________________

After Dunblane, a ban in Britain was mooted almost immediately.
__________________________________________________________________

"I just do not understand the logic of arming teachers," a baffled North told Morgan. "The idea that because the problem is guns, the answer is more guns, is ridiculous."
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/13/dunblane-sandy-hook-mick-north_n_9290228.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFvLkGdRof9MYlyxCeNZC5gcv2aN8i3aroNtUmWw-GQThubjf3eY96QAIm9JMMGnzAu40XVkT5Mko1EvpT2vL19l54YXq57DmltUqAU1EWSLQ8-ad6JKrltKkAgDVBg6oNEONaJzZBpmHs5ud19Moo2pP8LFYpMTIr_OVuby5Kb2
__________________________________________________________________
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 27, 2019, 12:20:56 PM
Indeed. The idea that a child would be abducted because their parents were both doctors is simply laughable.

Thats what happens when you take things out of context....which has happened a  lot in this case...the significance of the remark becomes totally altered.....the sceptic cause is built on out of context remarks....thats whats laughable
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 12:57:20 PM
Thats what happens when you take things out of context....which has happened a  lot in this case...the significance of the remark becomes totally altered.....the sceptic cause is built on out of context remarks....thats whats laughable

Then perhaps you will clarify the context.......oh yes I know you can’t be bothered, are bored, not worth the effort ( delete as necessary). Isn’t that how it goes ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 27, 2019, 01:06:40 PM
Then perhaps you will clarify the context.......oh yes I know you can’t be bothered, are bored, not worth the effort ( delete as necessary). Isn’t that how it goes ?

why should I have need to explain to you...if you want to think I beleive maddie was targetted because she was the daughter of two doctors...carry on
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 01:15:38 PM
why should I have need to explain to you...if you want to think I beleive maddie was targetted because she was the daughter of two doctors...carry on

As I thought....

Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 27, 2019, 02:00:49 PM
You so often post the most clearly misunderstood opinions gained from snatching at entirely the wrong end of the stick on just about everything.

Your predilection for rubbishing the efforts past and present of anyone attempting to further Madeleine's case either by means of the media or by the means of using private detectives at a time when absolutely no one in either in British or Portuguese officialdom was the least bit bothered is palpable.

But possibly nothing ... absolutely nothing ... illustrates your total ignorance than your opinion on the national trauma suffered in Scotland as a result of the Dunblane massacre.

A quick read of the situation regarding the gun laws of the US and Britain should clarify matters a little just as contemplation of the speed with which it is sometimes necessary for schools to have lock down procedures in place such as when Lee Rigby was murdered nearby.

The teachers still teach.  The pupils still study in probable ignorance of all the efforts which are in place for their security.

I think there may be more security measures and surveillance of the children while on Portuguese school premises than you may be aware of and if there isn't perhaps there should be.

Snip
Thanks to North and other campaigning parents, each of the handguns Hamilton used is now illegal to possess in Britain. The Gun Control Network, of which North was a founding member, was a crucial voice in the fight to stop more children dying in gun massacres.
__________________________________________________________________

After Dunblane, a ban in Britain was mooted almost immediately.
__________________________________________________________________

"I just do not understand the logic of arming teachers," a baffled North told Morgan. "The idea that because the problem is guns, the answer is more guns, is ridiculous."
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/13/dunblane-sandy-hook-mick-north_n_9290228.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFvLkGdRof9MYlyxCeNZC5gcv2aN8i3aroNtUmWw-GQThubjf3eY96QAIm9JMMGnzAu40XVkT5Mko1EvpT2vL19l54YXq57DmltUqAU1EWSLQ8-ad6JKrltKkAgDVBg6oNEONaJzZBpmHs5ud19Moo2pP8LFYpMTIr_OVuby5Kb2
__________________________________________________________________
Now I know why Jesus wept?

This has gone from a child who chose to strike up a conversation with me in Luz, to Dante's Inferno in Derbyshire,

To a hell-hole known as Scotland?

What is wrong with you people?

I live in a place where we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.

Please feel free to live in your dark corners.  Just don't try to impose this on Portugal.  We don't need your excrement.

We look after our kids.  The McCanns didn't.  Start-End.

Madeieine is the focus.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 27, 2019, 02:03:59 PM
As I thought....

I forgot.....the child needed to be from the right bloodline
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 02:05:51 PM
I forgot.....the child needed to be from the right bloodline

Explain ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 27, 2019, 02:12:12 PM
Explain ?

Maddie was abducted by the illuminati...she was the chosen one...from the correct blood line decscended from Hippocrates...remember context
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 27, 2019, 02:22:27 PM
Now I know why Jesus wept?

This has gone from a child who chose to strike up a conversation with me in Luz, to Dante's Inferno in Derbyshire,

To a hell-hole known as Scotland?

What is wrong with you people?

I live in a place where we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.

Please feel free to live in your dark corners.  Just don't try to impose this on Portugal.  We don't need your excrement.

We look after our kids.  The McCanns didn't.  Start-End.

Madeieine is the focus.

What a disjointed and nasty post which sadly reflects more about you than those you insult by suggesting thousands if not millions of our children are not cared for.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 27, 2019, 02:51:54 PM
What a disjointed and nasty post which sadly reflects more about you than those you insult by suggesting thousands if not millions of our children are not cared for.

sadly many parents like sil have believed their children are safe...only to find out they had a false sense of security
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 27, 2019, 06:18:31 PM
sadly many parents like sil have believed their children are safe...only to find out they had a false sense of security

....just as these parents did after the failed abduction attempt of their daughter. Fortunately for the wrongly accused man, DNA found on the victim cleared him but you do wonder how this case would have progressed without forensics.

https://buffalonews.com/2018/07/10/charges-dropped-in-wheatfield-child-snatching-because-of-mistaken-identity/
 
For one week in late June, convicted sex offender and parolee Larry K. Keiper managed to elude the watch of law enforcement authorities by cutting off the ankle monitoring bracelet that he had been ordered to wear.

In that time, police said, he managed to upend the lives of two Wheatfield families and almost succeeded in committing a heinous crime.

His exploits came to light Tuesday when prosecutors dropped all charges against a Wheatfield man wrongly accused of trying to kidnap his neighbor’s 6-year-old daughter and announced Keiper's arrest.

Keiper stands accused of entering a Ward Road home shortly after 3 a.m. June 28 and carrying a 6-year-old girl out of the house. The intruder dropped the girl on the steps and ran away after the girl’s mother chased him.

Keiper once committed a crime eerily similar to the Wheatfield incident. Prosecutors said he entered a North Tonawanda house in 2004 and was caught by parents in the bedroom of their 6-year-old daughter. His record also includes the rape of a 14-year-old girl in California in 1983 after entering her home, which is the crime that made him a Level 3 sex offender, the most serious classification.

Niagara County Sheriff James R. Voutour said that state parole officers lost track of Keiper, who is on parole for the 2004 North Tonawanda break-in, after he allegedly cut off the ankle bracelet that was supposed to monitor his movements.

He said the state Department of Corrections and Community Supervision didn't inform his department about the Keiper situation.

"We didn't know where he was for a week," said Capt. Bruce Elliott, chief of the Sheriff's Office Criminal Division.

"I certainly am concerned, now that I know what I know," Voutour said. "I didn't know it was cut off, nor did anybody in my department.

"You don't cut it off because it's too heavy to wear. You cut it off because you have intentions to do something," Voutour said. "This guy's an animal, a prowler out in Niagara County, and almost raped a little girl. And besides that, he sent someone else to jail for 12 days. I'm not saying we would have prevented it, but our chances would have been much better."

Such situations can be deadly. In the Syracuse area in 2013, David Renz, a man on federal probation, slipped out of his ankle bracelet and kidnapped a woman and a 10-year-old girl in a shopping mall parking lot. He murdered the woman and raped the girl.

But Corrections and Community Supervision spokesman Thomas Mailey said the department did take steps to find Keiper and to notify law enforcement. That included conducting a search and notifying several police agencies.

"And, in response to the department providing the Niagara Falls Intelligence Center with a 'Wanted' poster, a 'Be On the Lookout' notice was dispatched to all local law enforcement," Mailey said.

Keiper, 64, whose last reported address was on Armory Place in Niagara Falls, was arraigned Tuesday in Wheatfield Town Court on charges of burglary, attempted kidnapping and child endangerment. He was held without bail, District Attorney Caroline A. Wojtaszek announced Tuesday at an 11 a.m. news conference.

A legal source said Keiper's blood was found on the Wheatfield girl's pajamas. Wojtaszek wouldn't confirm that, but she said a DNA test was expedited on "forensic evidence ... that was recovered at the time of the crime."

The test results tying Keiper to the crime arrived at 11:30 a.m. Monday, Wojtaszek said.

She said she immediately made arrangements to have the charges against Salvatore Prezioso dismissed, which they were in an unscheduled appearance late Monday afternoon before Niagara County Judge Sara Sheldon. Prezioso then was released after 12 days in the County Jail.

"Based on the forensic evidence, Salvatore Prezioso has been completely and totally exonerated in this matter," Wojtaszek said.

Meanwhile, Keiper was already in custody. He had been arrested June 29 on a criminal trespass charge in the Ward Road neighborhood where the attempted child abduction occurred the day before.

Voutour said the arresting deputies learned Keiper was wanted as a parole absconder.

"Some statements he made that we will not talk about led us to further investigation," Voutour said.

Wojtaszek said Keiper's alleged invasion was "completely random." He didn't know the victim's family.

"Salvatore Prezioso wishes to thank his family and friends who supported him and believed in him, and believed in his innocence during this traumatic experience. He is relieved that he has been exonerated," said Theresa L. Prezioso, his niece by marriage and co-defense counsel.

"Notwithstanding this just result, Mr. Prezioso suffered the indignity of being publicly labeled as a predator. He spent 12 days in the Niagara County Jail for a crime in which he had no involvement," Theresa Prezioso said. "These false accusations laid upon Mr. Prezioso and their subsequent consequences were incredibly painful for Sal and his family. Sal is hopeful that this nightmare will serve to remind the public that a rush to judgment is never fair, that an arrest is not tantamount to guilt. Sal's case underscores how eyewitness identification can be unreliable, particularly under certain circumstances, such as those that existed in this case."

Her co-counsel, Robert Viola, said he wasn't sure the falsely accused man's reputation could be restored.

"There's always going to be people who say, 'You were charged,' and aren't going to read how the case got dismissed or thrown out. They'll think he got out on some technicality. I think you can't unring the bell. Once you've been charged and arrested, there's some stigma there," Viola said.

The defense lawyers said the mother's identification of her neighbor as the abductor wasn't solid.

"It was 3 o'clock in the morning, it was dark," Theresa Prezioso said. "There were many holes in it."

Wojtaszek said the mother was "devastated" to learn she had put her innocent neighbor in jail.

Wojtaszek emphasized that Prezioso was arrested based on "probable cause," and Viola said a false arrest lawsuit could be hard to win.

"It would be a difficult burden (of proof) at this point, based upon what we know, but it needs to be looked at closely," Viola said.

A Ward Road woman told sheriff's deputies that she woke up about 3:20 a.m. June 28 and saw her daughter being carried down the front steps of her home by a man, whom she identified as Prezioso, her next-door neighbor.

The intruder dropped the girl on the steps when the mother chased him. Prezioso was quickly arrested and charged with first-degree burglary, attempted second-degree kidnapping and child endangerment.

The Niagara County Sheriff’s Office Crime Scene Unit visited the crime scene again Tuesday afternoon. The Ward Road house is about a tenth of a mile north of the North Tonawanda city line, on a 40 mph, two-lane road lined with houses, behind which sit fields and farmland.

The victim’s family could not be reached for comment. A resident of the property where Keiper is accused of trespassing also declined comment.

Keiper's criminal history includes a pair of four-year prison sentences for burglaries, one in 1971 in Niagara County and one in 1978 in Erie County. He violated parole on both sentences, according to records of the state Department of Corrections and Community Supervision.

Keiper then moved to California, where he was convicted of the July 8, 1983, forcible rape of a 14-year-old girl after entering her home. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison, but was paroled in 1997, according to the California sex offender registry.

Returning to Western New York, Keiper was arrested Aug. 1, 1997, after being chased by four officers and a police dog investigating a series of six burglaries on 72nd Street in Niagara Falls.

The Buffalo News reported at the time that two women in separate houses told police that they were awakened by the break-ins and identified Keiper as a man carrying a flashlight in their homes. One woman said she woke up to find Keiper pointing the flashlight at her as she lay in bed.

Keiper, who at the time listed an address on 76th Street in the Falls, pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of attempted second-degree burglary. On Dec. 2, 1997, Niagara County Judge Charles J. Hannigan sentenced him to seven years in state prison. He was paroled in 2003.

On Sept. 23, 2004, Keiper, then living on Ontario Avenue in the Falls, broke into a home on Ruie Road in North Tonawanda, where residents said they found her in the bedroom of their 6-year-old daughter at about 3 a.m.

He had not yet been charged with that crime when Amherst police captured him two days later after a Bauman Road homeowner said he caught Keiper shining a flashlight through a bedroom window. Keiper was charged with two burglary attempts that night on Bauman Road.

On Aug. 23, 2005, Niagara County Judge Peter L. Broderick Sr. called Keiper "a professional burglar" and sentenced him to 12 years in prison for the Ruie Road break-in.

He was paroled in 2015 and headed for eastern Pennsylvania, where he was arrested Sept. 8, 2015, in Bucks County on prowling and loitering charges for looking into house windows at night, according to the Lehigh Valley Express-Times.

That led to his re-imprisonment in New York as a parole violator in January 2016, but he was paroled again Dec. 7, 2017, according to Department of Corrections and Community Supervision records.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a footnote, the Portuguese Judge in a bit of bother over quoting part of the bible in defence of 2 men battering an adulteress, is now embroiled in another controversy over the removal of an electronic tag.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2019/02/25/controversial-judge-causes-new-upset/
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 27, 2019, 08:13:46 PM
....just as these parents did after the failed abduction attempt of their daughter. Fortunately for the wrongly accused man, DNA found on the victim cleared him but you do wonder how this case would have progressed without forensics.

https://buffalonews.com/2018/07/10/charges-dropped-in-wheatfield-child-snatching-because-of-mistaken-identity/
 

It certainly gives the lie to "innocent" burglars with no interest in abducting or abusing children.  This guy was a one man crime wave who gives sense to the three strike policy in some American states.

Interesting that the electronic bracelet was ruled as being illegal in Portugal. 
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 08:44:39 PM
Maddie was abducted by the illuminati...she was the chosen one...from the correct blood line decscended from Hippocrates...remember context

Is that a theory you have considered because if not I’m not sure why you feel it’s relevant.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 27, 2019, 09:11:15 PM
Now I know why Jesus wept?

This has gone from a child who chose to strike up a conversation with me in Luz, to Dante's Inferno in Derbyshire,

To a hell-hole known as Scotland?

What is wrong with you people?

I live in a place where we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.

Please feel free to live in your dark corners.  Just don't try to impose this on Portugal.  We don't need your excrement.

We look after our kids.  The McCanns didn't.  Start-End.

Madeieine is the focus.
Yes how dare we suggest primary school children in Portugal should be supervised at playtime  to ensure they don’t come to harm!  Of course they don’t need supervision, children never come to harm there and  everyone in Portugal is kind and loves children (but not in acreepy way of course).   It’s only in deepest darkest satanic England where kids have accidents in playgrounds or where creepy old men might have less than honorable intentions when chatting with kiddies over the primary wall fence.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 27, 2019, 09:21:00 PM
It certainly gives the lie to "innocent" burglars with no interest in abducting or abusing children.  This guy was a one man crime wave who gives sense to the three strike policy in some American states.

Interesting that the electronic bracelet was ruled as being illegal in Portugal.

I think it also demonstrates that, no matter how safe a village/parish may be deemed by its residents, danger posed by transients could be lurking either just inside or outside the boundaries
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 09:45:25 PM
I think it also demonstrates that, no matter how safe a village/parish may be deemed by its residents, danger posed by transients could be lurking either just inside or outside the boundaries

And that’s why good parents don’t leave their children alone....especially when they are new to the area.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 27, 2019, 09:59:00 PM
And that’s why good parents don’t leave their children alone....especially when they are new to the area.

The definition of good parenting is subjective. In the US cases above, the presence of adults did not prevent a crime occurring. Cases like Madeleine's are exceptionally rare.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 27, 2019, 10:41:21 PM
The definition of good parenting is subjective. In the US cases above, the presence of adults did not prevent a crime occurring. Cases like Madeleine's are exceptionally rare.

There is no definition that would describe leaving three under 4 alone in a strange apartment, in a strange location as good.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 27, 2019, 10:41:32 PM
I wasn’t aware (or had forgotten) that the Met had revealed a sex attack on a ten year old girl in Praia da Luz itself two years before Madeleine disappeared.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10782230/Madeleine-McCann-Police-reveal-details-of-attack-in-Praia-da-Luz-two-years-earlier.html
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: misty on February 27, 2019, 11:07:39 PM
There is no definition that would describe leaving three under 4 alone in a strange apartment, in a strange location as good.

As I said, it's subjective. Clearly in other countries different standards apply and statistically Madeleine was safer alone than with her parents on the premises. However, it's not a practice I would recommend in our crime-ridden country.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/04/hidden-crisis-of-small-children-left-home-alone-while-parents-work
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Faithlilly on February 28, 2019, 12:40:59 AM
As I said, it's subjective. Clearly in other countries different standards apply and statistically Madeleine was safer alone than with her parents on the premises. However, it's not a practice I would recommend in our crime-ridden country.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/04/hidden-crisis-of-small-children-left-home-alone-while-parents-work

What absolute nonsense. No child is safer alone no matter what the country or circumstances. Where did you get that crazy idea from ?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2019, 12:54:22 AM
What a disjointed and nasty post which sadly reflects more about you than those you insult by suggesting thousands if not millions of our children are not cared for.
&%%6

When I was appointed as a moderator, the voting result was rigged so that you came equal in the votes.  I offered to withdraw.  You did not.

I have not said or implied that thousands or millions of your children are not cared for.

I HAVE said that the McCanns did not look after their children, which clearly and obviously they did not.  Established years ago.

What a venomous post, from a supposedly senior moderator.   Disgraceful,  Utterly disgraceful.





Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2019, 02:24:29 AM
&%%6

When I was appointed as a moderator, the voting result was rigged so that you came equal in the votes.  I offered to withdraw.  You did not.

I have not said or implied that thousands or millions of your children are not cared for.

I HAVE said that the McCanns did not look after their children, which clearly and obviously they did not.  Established years ago.

What a venomous post, from a supposedly senior moderator.   Disgraceful,  Utterly disgraceful.

It is always worth re-reading what you intend to say about yourself in a post before pressing the 'post' button which immortalises it for your brief fifteen minutes of fame.

Your words are in bold ...

to Dante's Inferno in Derbyshire, ???? 

To a hell-hole known as Scotland? 

What is wrong with you people?

I live in a place where we look after our kids. 

And our neighbours kids.

Please feel free to live in your dark corners. 

Just don't try to impose this on Portugal. 

We don't need your excrement.

We look after our kids. 



Please read that again and think carefully about your reasons for posting such a puerile rant on this forum.  I won't insult you by suggesting you think carefully before posting such potentially offensive material in future because I think you already appear to be giving it careful thought.

Manners maketh man 💥
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
It is always worth re-reading what you intend to say about yourself in a post before pressing the 'post' button which immortalises it for your brief fifteen minutes of fame.

Your words are in bold ...

to Dante's Inferno in Derbyshire, ???? 

To a hell-hole known as Scotland? 

What is wrong with you people?

I live in a place where we look after our kids. 

And our neighbours kids.

Please feel free to live in your dark corners. 

Just don't try to impose this on Portugal. 

We don't need your excrement.

We look after our kids. 



Please read that again and think carefully about your reasons for posting such a puerile rant on this forum.  I won't insult you by suggesting you think carefully before posting such potentially offensive material in future because I think you already appear to be giving it careful thought.

Manners maketh man 💥
Please either point out which forum rule was broken, and why you didn't moderate it, or stop trying to bully me.

You, and other members, do NOT police what we do in my neck of the woods.  Kindly bear that in mind.

The fact that some members are uppity about my politeness to a small child is utterly disgraceful.  Keep that for your own backyard.

Derbyshire was raised by VS as a place where the population is dense, as a quick use of the search function will confirm.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 28, 2019, 12:14:40 PM
Please either point out which forum rule was broken, and why you didn't moderate it, or stop trying to bully me.

You, and other members, do NOT police what we do in my neck of the woods.  Kindly bear that in mind.

The fact that some members are uppity about my politeness to a small child is utterly disgraceful.  Keep that for your own backyard.

Derbyshire was raised by VS as a place where the population is dense, as a quick use of the search function will confirm.


I have tried to explain the reasoning behind the more secure procedures which out of necessity were implemented in our schools.
Your use  of such words as "hellhole", "dark corners" and "excrement" is both unnecessary and offensive.

No one could ever imagine that in a lovely little school in quiet Dunblane such an atrocity could happen.
It changed the security procedures forever but the children continue to learn and play in a relaxed and pleasant atmosphere.
Adults going past the school are quite at liberty to respond to a child's greeting but must also be aware that the interaction between the child and the unknown adult will be noted .

Sometimes you should consider that your idyllic lifestyle could be altered by evil.
That happend in Dunblane and it shocked our country to the core.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2019, 12:54:59 PM

I have tried to explain the reasoning behind the more secure procedures which out of necessity were implemented in our schools.
Your use  of such words as "hellhole", "dark corners" and "excrement" is both unnecessary and offensive.

No one could ever imagine that in a lovely little school in quiet Dunblane such an atrocity could happen.
It changed the security procedures forever but the children continue to learn and play in a relaxed and pleasant atmosphere.
Adults going past the school are quite at liberty to respond to a child's greeting but must also be aware that the interaction between the child and the unknown adult will be noted .

Sometimes you should consider that your idyllic lifestyle could be altered by evil.
That happend in Dunblane and it shocked our country to the core.

Some events are so powerful that they alter the psyche of a nation.  Dunblane was one such and for a very short period the little primary school was indeed turned into a "hellhole" thanks to a depraved individual who had access to legally held guns.
But it most certainly is not an apt description with which to label a whole country. 

One should never tempt fate by crowing that one's own chosen idyll is immune from such evil because I can state from personal knowledge that Dunblane is as idyllic a place to be and to bring up children as anywhere in the world.  The event of 1996 did not change that.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2019, 01:24:58 PM

I have tried to explain the reasoning behind the more secure procedures which out of necessity were implemented in our schools.
Your use  of such words as "hellhole", "dark corners" and "excrement" is both unnecessary and offensive.

No one could ever imagine that in a lovely little school in quiet Dunblane such an atrocity could happen.
It changed the security procedures forever but the children continue to learn and play in a relaxed and pleasant atmosphere.
Adults going past the school are quite at liberty to respond to a child's greeting but must also be aware that the interaction between the child and the unknown adult will be noted .

Sometimes you should consider that your idyllic lifestyle could be altered by evil.
That happend in Dunblane and it shocked our country to the core.
Kindly don't lecture me on Scotland.  I am well acquainted with it. My first degree was awarded by the University of Edinburgh.  For any Scottish guests, there was a college in Edinburgh called Heriot-Watt, which was elevated to university status at some point. I did not attend Heriot-Watt.  I graduated from the University of Edinburgh, which happens to have been a university for many centuries.

My lifestyle here is not what I would describe as idyllic, nor is our neck of the woods.  But with whatever life I have left, I intend to optimise it.  That includes the freedom to speak to any small child who initiates a conversation.

There is a small Portuguese girl in my village, perhaps aged 3.  I sometimes pass her by as she is going out to her car early in the morning, presumably to pre-school.  At the same time I am dumping our rubbish in one of the local wheelie bins.

The location is a fairly narrow street, and we get idiot drivers who speed along it.

The little girl has spoken to me either twice or 3 times now, all started by her.  Basically, I haven't got a clue what she is saying, so I try responding to her in very simple Portuguese, whether it makes sense to her or not.

She adores my puppy, because Gonçalo is adorable.

On those 2 or 3 occasions, she had run ahead of her mother, so the little girl was alone, on our village high street.  Apart from me.

What should I have done when she decided she wanted to start up a chat with me?

Judging by 'best advice' offered so far, I should have ignored her completely, walked swiftly away, and left her to her fate.

 &%%6

I checked to find out that her mother was nearby and coming to the car.  I checked to make sure there was no traffic coming along the high street.

Here we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 28, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Kindly don't lecture me on Scotland.  I am well acquainted with it. My first degree was awarded by the University of Edinburgh.  For any Scottish guests, there was a college in Edinburgh called Heriot-Watt, which was elevated to university status at some point. I did not attend Heriot-Watt.  I graduated from the University of Edinburgh, which happens to have been a university for many centuries.

My lifestyle here is not what I would describe as idyllic, nor is our neck of the woods.  But with whatever life I have left, I intend to optimise it.  That includes the freedom to speak to any small child who initiates a conversation.

There is a small Portuguese girl in my village, perhaps aged 3.  I sometimes pass her by as she is going out to her car early in the morning, presumably to pre-school.  At the same time I am dumping our rubbish in one of the local wheelie bins.

The location is a fairly narrow street, and we get idiot drivers who speed along it.

The little girl has spoken to me either twice or 3 times now, all started by her.  Basically, I haven't got a clue what she is saying, so I try responding to her in very simple Portuguese, whether it makes sense to her or not.

She adores my puppy, because Gonçalo is adorable.

On those 2 or 3 occasions, she had run ahead of her mother, so the little girl was alone, on our village high street.  Apart from me.

What should I have done when she decided she wanted to start up a chat with me?

Judging by 'best advice' offered so far, I should have ignored her completely, walked swiftly away, and left her to her fate.

 &%%6

I checked to find out that her mother was nearby and coming to the car.  I checked to make sure there was no traffic coming along the high street.

Here we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.

And you can kindly not lecture me on this "hellhole" I live in.
I find this "hellhole" to be not only the country I was born into, but also a beautiful country with folk who by a great majority look after their children and who also are very concerned with the welfare of other children.
It's no surprise that Scotland  is known for the generosity and kindliness of her people.
My lifestyle here is extremely pleasant, so much so that I would certainly never, ever wish to move to any other.
Except of course, a short stay in beautiful Italy.

I find your posts rather aggressive.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Brietta on February 28, 2019, 03:21:56 PM
Kindly don't lecture me on Scotland.  I am well acquainted with it. My first degree was awarded by the University of Edinburgh.  For any Scottish guests, there was a college in Edinburgh called Heriot-Watt, which was elevated to university status at some point. I did not attend Heriot-Watt.  I graduated from the University of Edinburgh, which happens to have been a university for many centuries.

My lifestyle here is not what I would describe as idyllic, nor is our neck of the woods.  But with whatever life I have left, I intend to optimise it.  That includes the freedom to speak to any small child who initiates a conversation.

There is a small Portuguese girl in my village, perhaps aged 3.  I sometimes pass her by as she is going out to her car early in the morning, presumably to pre-school.  At the same time I am dumping our rubbish in one of the local wheelie bins.

The location is a fairly narrow street, and we get idiot drivers who speed along it.

The little girl has spoken to me either twice or 3 times now, all started by her.  Basically, I haven't got a clue what she is saying, so I try responding to her in very simple Portuguese, whether it makes sense to her or not.

She adores my puppy, because Gonçalo is adorable.

On those 2 or 3 occasions, she had run ahead of her mother, so the little girl was alone, on our village high street.  Apart from me.

What should I have done when she decided she wanted to start up a chat with me?

Judging by 'best advice' offered so far, I should have ignored her completely, walked swiftly away, and left her to her fate.

 &%%6

I checked to find out that her mother was nearby and coming to the car.  I checked to make sure there was no traffic coming along the high street.

Here we look after our kids.  And our neighbours kids.

  ... so the little girl was alone, on our village high street.
  ... a fairly narrow street, and we get idiot drivers who speed along it.
  ... Here we look after our kids.

Do you really?
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 28, 2019, 04:18:49 PM
  ... so the little girl was alone, on our village high street.
  ... a fairly narrow street, and we get idiot drivers who speed along it.
  ... Here we look after our kids.

Do you really?
Indeed we do.  I'd suggest you don't selectively pick out lines to illustrate your point of view.  It does you no credit.

I would expect a speeding idiot to brake for a dog, let alone a child.

I was simply illustrating that the McCann standards of care fell woefully short of what we do here.

Crikey!  I have now been castigated for two events where I have been civil to small children.

It's been escalated to paedophiles and Dunblane.

What comes next?  Nazis?  Hiroshima?

I have a third true tale of looking after a young, unknown child.  It occurred somewhere near  Rothley.  Do you want to hear it?  Or do you prefer to escalate simple kindness to Dunblane levels?

Here we look after our kids.  Pity that the parents failed Madeleine.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on February 28, 2019, 05:09:42 PM
Indeed we do.  I'd suggest you don't selectively pick out lines to illustrate your point of view.  It does you no credit.

I would expect a speeding idiot to brake for a dog, let alone a child.

I was simply illustrating that the McCann standards of care fell woefully short of what we do here.

Crikey!  I have now been castigated for two events where I have been civil to small children.

It's been escalated to paedophiles and Dunblane.

What comes next?  Nazis?  Hiroshima?

I have a third true tale of looking after a young, unknown child.  It occurred somewhere near  Rothley.  Do you want to hear it?  Or do you prefer to escalate simple kindness to Dunblane levels?

Here we look after our kids.  Pity that the parents failed Madeleine.


As predictably an over exaggerated response from yourself as one has come to expect.

Here we are also kind to  children but are aware that to a young child kindness might mask somewhat alterior motives.

Responsible adults are aware of this difficulty.

Ps.
Bringing Hiroshima and Nazis into the debate is rather distasteful. IMO



Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on February 28, 2019, 05:40:41 PM
Indeed we do.  I'd suggest you don't selectively pick out lines to illustrate your point of view.  It does you no credit.

I would expect a speeding idiot to brake for a dog, let alone a child.

I was simply illustrating that the McCann standards of care fell woefully short of what we do here.

Crikey!  I have now been castigated for two events where I have been civil to small children.

It's been escalated to paedophiles and Dunblane.

What comes next?  Nazis?  Hiroshima?

I have a third true tale of looking after a young, unknown child.  It occurred somewhere near  Rothley.  Do you want to hear it?  Or do you prefer to escalate simple kindness to Dunblane levels?

Here we look after our kids.  Pity that the parents failed Madeleine.

Portugal has a poor record on child abuse and abuse of women
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 01, 2019, 12:16:25 PM
Portugal has a poor record on child abuse and abuse of women
We have the McCann case, for starters.
 &^^&*
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Angelo222 on March 01, 2019, 01:04:54 PM
Portugal has a poor record on child abuse and abuse of women

I would say England is far worse.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on March 01, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
I would say England is far worse.

No... I've provided a cite previously
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 01, 2019, 01:30:02 PM

As predictably an over exaggerated response from yourself as one has come to expect.

Here we are also kind to  children but are aware that to a young child kindness might mask somewhat alterior motives.

Responsible adults are aware of this difficulty.

Ps.
Bringing Hiroshima and Nazis into the debate is rather distasteful. IMO

Don't worry.  Your escalation of an act of simple civility to Dunblane was definitely OTT, and truly beyond the pale.  IMO.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Angelo222 on March 01, 2019, 02:16:07 PM
No... I've provided a cite previously

Portugal is a religious and family oriented society whereas England is the opposite so would be very surprised if you were right.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Davel on March 01, 2019, 02:35:04 PM
Portugal is a religious and family oriented society whereas England is the opposite so would be very surprised if you were right.

Isis is very religious too.. I'll see if I can repost the cite
There's a lot if child exploitation... Abuse.. And violence towards women by husbands..... A judge recently quoted the bible in support if a man found guilty of beating his, wufe
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2019, 03:17:28 PM
 &%%6
Don't worry.  Your escalation of an act of simple civility to Dunblane was definitely OTT, and truly beyond the pale.  IMO.

My how you twist and turn my posts!
I attempted to explain why there are now much more security measures in place in schools here after the tradgedy of Dunblane
At no time did I "escalate" your action to a comparison of Dunblane.

Your posts using language including "Dante's inferno" and"excrement"  " hellhole" "Hiroshima" and "Nazis " are the posts which are undeniably beyond the pale.and whch spoil the forum. IMO

Your posts were offensive to myself and at least two other posters.
Shocking lanuage to use to other posters, not necessary at all.!
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 01, 2019, 04:06:42 PM
&%%6
My how you twist and turn my posts!
I attempted to explain why there are now much more security measures in place in schools here after the tradgedy of Dunblane
At no time did I "escalate" your action to a comparison of Dunblane.

Your posts using language including "Dante's inferno" and"excrement"  " hellhole" "Hiroshima" and "Nazis " are the posts which are undeniably beyond the pale.and whch spoil the forum. IMO

Your posts were offensive to myself and at least two other posters.

Shocking lanuage to use to other posters, not necessary at all.!
Dunblane did not happen anywhere near to Luz, but you did start the escalation.  Previously VS had escalated to potential paedo.  If this sort of tripe is peddled, don't be surprised if I retaliate.

We don't live in Scotland, or wherever VS lives.  AFAIK, neither of you has visited Luz - please enlighten me if I am wrong.  One reason for leaving the UK was to dump such dark mentality behind.

There is a report to moderator button for a reason.  Perhaps you should consider using it in future.

Just for the record, I see no issue in offending you, because sometimes the truth hurts.

Here we look after our kids, and our neighbours.  If the McCanns had looked after Madeleine, we would not be considering Dunblane, or paedophiles.

While we are at it, I would be grateful if you stop trying to bully me into subservient acquiescence.  It seems to be a standard, rather childish tactic used by supporters.  Feel free to put me on ignore if you think your enjoyment of the forum will increase.  Trust me, I would not be offended in the slightest.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Erngath on March 01, 2019, 04:27:12 PM
Dunblane did not happen anywhere near to Luz, but you did start the escalation.  Previously VS had escalated to potential paedo.  If this sort of tripe is peddled, don't be surprised if I retaliate.

We don't live in Scotland, or wherever VS lives.  AFAIK, neither of you has visited Luz - please enlighten me if I am wrong.  One reason for leaving the UK was to dump such dark mentality behind.

There is a report to moderator button for a reason.  Perhaps you should consider using it in future.

Just for the record, I see no issue in offending you, because sometimes the truth hurts.

Here we look after our kids, and our neighbours.  If the McCanns had looked after Madeleine, we would not be considering Dunblane, or paedophiles.

While we are at it, I would be grateful if you stop trying to bully me into subservient acquiescence.  It seems to be a standard, rather childish tactic used by supporters.  Feel free to put me on ignore if you think your enjoyment of the forum will increase.  Trust me, I would not be offended in the slightest.


Good heavens, why would I put you on ignore?
The insults continue but your posts are full of them.
You obviously cannot post without insulting fellow posters.
I'll leave you to make your inevitable obnoxious reply.
I have had enough of your unpleasantness.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Angelo222 on March 01, 2019, 04:31:33 PM
Could we stop squabbling please.
Title: Re: A proven miscarriage of justice in Portugal
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 01, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
Don't worry.  Your escalation of an act of simple civility to Dunblane was definitely OTT, and truly beyond the pale.  IMO.
  *%87 Do you deliberately keep missing the point or are you simply unable to follow logical argument?