UK Justice Forum

Other High Profile Cases and Persons of Interest => The murder of JonBenét Ramsey (6) on 25/26 December 1996. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2019, 09:58:46 PM

Title: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2019, 09:58:46 PM
I have spent a year or so looking into the circumstances around the death of Jonbenet.
Through the thread which has developed over that year I will look at what I feel were discrepancies and the results of my research in order an attempt at resolving these discrepancies

The first discrepancy I found was that having extensively studied familial DNA the DNA profile of Melinda Ramsey did not support that she was John Ramsey's biological daughter. 
The results of her DNA profile indicated that it was possible that her father may have been a close relative of John.

From the photos of Melinda and her deceased sister Elizabeth, because they looked so alike it is possible to question Elizabeth's paternity as well but I have not seen any DNA results confirming or denying this.

The youngest of the three children in the previous marriage was John Andrew and from his profile all the results showed he was consistent with being the biological son of John Ramsey.

[Many posts in this thread have been amended as I get a better understanding of the case, therefore for you to get a full understanding of the "New theory" try reading the thread from the beginning again sometime.
Revising the posts on this thread is what I do regularly, checking that what I have written can be backed with at least one cite.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 12, 2019, 10:12:04 PM
The second inconsistency I noted was that a neighbour saw a person thought to be John Andrew Ramsey at the Ramsey house  around 5:30 PM or so on the evening before the murder took place.

Later the neighbour changes his eyewitness account and says  he "wouldn't be able to pick John Andrew (JAR) out of a crowd".   John Andrew's alibi was quite extensive and the Boulder Police Dept (BPD) accepted his alibi.

What I think is this still implies there was some other man (not JAR) seen at the house that evening.  To me it seems as if the sighting is discounted in total once it is discovered that it could not be JAR.  Surely he didn't mean there was no one there!
When the neighbour says "a crowd" is he implying whoever was  around the Ramsey house was within a group of people?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2019, 09:57:56 PM
Third point I noted was that the cellar door appeared to one of the initial officers to have been "painted shut".  This was obviously a missed reading (misunderstanding) of the situation by the officer and IMO could only have indicated there was someone inside that room applying a "pulling" force to keep the door from opening.
IMO and in my theory at least one of the killers was still in the room when the police had arrived.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 13, 2019, 10:29:47 PM
Fourth point:
The ransom note said not to call the police.  What occurred to me was it was possible if the kidnappers had remained at the house they could have simply listened in to the landline phone call to the police at 5:52 AM.   This was evidenced by Patsy suddenly hanging up the call leaving the 911 operator and the kidnappers keeping the phone line active for the next 6 seconds.
So it is very possible the killing of JB occurred after 5:52 AM as per the warning in the ransom note.

Words to the effect, "if you ring the police she will be beheaded ...".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 14, 2019, 01:31:35 AM
The fifth inconsistency:

John Ramsey  says in most interviews he found Jonbenet (JB) at 1:00 PM and thought that she could possibly be still alive so he moved her from the basement.

In a telephone conversation with John Ramsey Stewart Long (Melinda's boyfriend) said that John found JB at 11:00 AM.
 
I discovered John Ramsey also says it was "late morning" in a live interview with Larry King in a CNN interview.

I believe  John Ramsey found JB in the basement  in the morning and knew full well she was deceased when he lifted her out of the basement at 1:03 PM.
Why would he delay in announcing that JB had been found?
If he knew about the body being in the basement he would not have needed to find it earlier.  Would it not have been best to say nothing?  [This suggests to me John Ramsey did not commit or know about the murder before the phone call.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 11:14:17 AM
Can anyone confirm whether the following statement is true or false please?

"The killer said he would call the home and give instructions, John said that there was a call that came in around 10:00 am and the caller did not say anything. Was this the killer making the call?"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6010.msg219462#msg219462

Was there really a silent call at 10:00 AM?  If there was wouldn't the FBI know who made the call? 
[I have a feeling the phone taps had not been setup by 10:00 AM that morning.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 11:42:13 AM
"70 Points Burke Ramsey says prove his innocence"
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/70-points-burke-ramsey-says-prove-his-innocence-?fbclid=IwAR1LDhChucbwBGL-FyOA9IPERUw7FfxLhTClg9VP7FA-JCq0-g_c4LAogyw

One point that I object to is point #7:

7. "After waking up on Dec. 26, Patsy went down two flights of stairs from her room to the main floor, locating near the bottom of the stairs a two-and-a-half-page, handwritten ransom note stating that JonBenet had been kidnapped."

The ransom note does not state that JonBenet had been kidnapped!"

The ransom note was addressed to Mr Ramsey and says they have his daughter. Mr Ramsey actually had two daughters and it does not specify which daughter was being held for ransom. Jonbenet's name is not on the note.

If John Ramsey did not consider for a moment that the kidnappers could have had Melinda - he is showing favouritism amongst his daughters.
Simply that JB was not in her bed didn't actually equate to proof JB had been kidnapped.
She might have been playing in the basement.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 11:48:14 AM
Melinda Ramsey's alibi.
I have read that when Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long turned up at the scene they were whisked away in separate cars.
From memory this was around 1:30 PM. So where had she been prior to that?

I was told: ".... she just flew in with JAR. They left early from Atlanta to meet John and Patsy in Minneapolis that morning only they were rerouted when they landed to Denver. Then they got a taxi to Boulder."  [That is the official story.]

There were supposedly 3 of them travelling together, Melinda and her fiance Stewart Long and John Andrew.

So I question:  "They all flew together did they? Were they all on the same flight from Minneapolis?
"How did you figure that out. Did you see flight details to confirm this?"

Then I found an account and the whole account seems strange to me. "Quoted in Paula Woodward book:
"When we got to the house in Boulder, I remember seeing police setting up yellow tape around the yard. Dad and Patsy were outside with friends, and Dad was crying. Patsy looked awful. Dad said, 'JonBenet is with Beth.' That's my sister who was killed in a car crash. My mind played tricks on me. I was already in shock. My first reaction was that JonBenet had not died. It was that Beth was taking care of JonBenet while she was still kidnapped.
We all almost immediately got into cars and went to a family friend's home. When we got there, Patsy couldn't even sit up, so I went to comfort her."
Melinda told Patsy, 'We're going to get her back. It's going to be OK."
And Patsy told Melinda, "No, Melinda, you don't understand. Your Dad found her in the basement. She's dead."
"I remember thinking this would kill them. After my older sister, Beth, was killed in a car wreck, it was just so awful. I didn't think they could take another loss like this. I thought they'll be dead in a year from sheer grief. Patsy already seemed dead inside. Her whole body was pale and grey. She just wasn't there. Dad was sobbing continuously. His way of dealing was to pace and cry."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 05:39:18 PM
From another interview presented on Webbsleuths also:
"Melinda Ramsey speaking about her step mother, Patsy Ramsey in "JonBenet's Mother, The Tragedy and the Truth by Linda McLean.

"I've never called her mother, because I already have a wonderful mother; I call her Patsy. But I think of her as my "special mom". I first met Patsy when I was 7 or 8 years old, after my parents had been divorced for a couple of years. For some reasons, one of my first impressions was that she seemed so full of energy. As we got to know each other, we grew very close and still are. We are not related by blood but we are related by love.
"Patsy was always so much fun to be around! I vividly remember the family playing Bingo and Charades together. When it was our birthday, she always made a fuss. This was our "special day' and the birthday child was the center of attention. Patsy was always interested in whatever I was doing at school. I remember when I ran for student council in junior high, she helped me make posters and buttons and practice my speech. Patsy always thinks of others. She always puts other people's feelings, wants and needs above her own. It makes her happy to make other people happy. And that's what makes her so special.

I know it's hard to be a step-parent. You are somewhere in the middle - like a "fill-in". But Patsy was always genuinely glad to see us; she treated us like her own children. It meant a lot to me as a child when she introduced me to people as "my daughter, Melinda". She didn't make the distinction of step-child. But she also didn't cross the line and try to become our mother. She didn't discipline us. For my upcoming wedding, she and my mother are working as a team. Patsy helped Mom select the invitations and organize my engagement party. I know I am fortunate to have a family like this
One day as we were driving in the car, Dad asked, "What would you think about having another brother or sister?" It really caught me off-guard and I was shocked; I guess I just never thought about it. But I was really happy and when Burke and Jonbenet were born, it was so exciting! They were both so much fun to be around. Burke liked to play with John Andrew, always looking for him to play matchbook cars, etc. Jonbenet and I liked to paint together or play dress up. Each year we coloured Easter eggs and we had a Christmas tradition of baking cookies together.
Since I grew up in Georgia, I wasn't used to snow. One day in Boulder, there were little patches of snow on the ground and JonBenet went out to "build a snowman". I soon realized it would be almost impossible to do this with the little bit of snow that was left. But JonBenet was determined. "I know we can do it!" And so, of course, we worked and worked until we had a two-foot-high snowman. I'd do anything to make her happy.
One of my strongest memories is how she always ran to greet me. Her pig tails were flying, her hands were outstretched and she screamed, "Be-winda, Be-winda." It is this memory that I cherish the most.
It breaks my heart to see these horrible accusations being made about Dad and Patsy. They are wonderful parents! Patsy helped raise Beth and John Andrew and me. I watched them with Burke and JonBenet. I know! And yet people who don't know them who have never even met them, are saying absolutely horrible things! They have no right to!!
I'm their daughter. I've lived under the same roof as them. I've had the same parents as JonBenet. I have such a hard time understanding why the public refuses to believe me -- why my word just isn't enough.
I'm glad Dad and Patsy are strong people. They have withstood a lot and they can withstand this too. But it isn't fair. It just isn't fair.
(Melinda was crying as the interview ended)"

My comments:
"I'm their daughter. I've lived under the same roof as them. I've had the same parents as JonBenet." Seems a bit of a stretch when obviously they (Melinda and Jonbenet) had different biological mothers and if my source is correct different biological fathers.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 06:02:10 PM
So where were the kids when John Ramsey spoke to them that morning?  What time did he talk to them on the phone?
Linda Arndt (Boulder Police Dept, detective) says the kids rang him that day. Where do you think they were at that time Minneapolis or Denver?
The only time they could have spoken to each other was while they were at the Minneapolis airport, and they had to catch the flight at 10:38 according to the current schedule.
10:38 AM is 9:38 AM Mountain time.  So those phone calls  with the kids had to be before 9:38 Boulder time.
They arrive in Denver 12:03 PM and it takes from what I've heard 1.5 hours from landing in Denver to get by taxi to Boulder.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 06:20:05 PM
Stewart Long is reported to have said John Ramsey found JB at 11:00 AM. There was this debate as to who's time was this.

The only time Stewart Long (Melinda's fiance) could look at his watch and think it was 11:00 AM was at Minneapolis (10:00 AM) but only if Stewart's watch was still reading Eastern Time.

11:00 AM Eastern Time is when it is still only 9:00 AM Mountain Time.  Are we going to say that  John Ramsey had found Jonbenet dead at 9:00 AM!

That doesn't make much sense. If John didn't know at that time how did Stewart Long ever think JB was found dead at 11:00 AM, for when it was 11:00 AM Mountain Time Stewart Long is supposed to be aboard an aeroplane.

[I haven't had to work with 3 time zones before.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 07:56:26 PM
It would be possible for Stewart Long to ring the Ramsey house once they arrived in Denver and be told that John had found JB at 11:00 AM.  That potential conversation  would be after 12:03 PM.  But once the kids were in a taxi they would find it hard to make a telephone call unless they had cellphones with them.  But there has been no mention the kids had cellphones.
[ Further in the thread I find that it was John Ramsey who told Stewart and John Andrew about the time he found JB at 11:00 AM.]

[Solution:  I have discovered since making this post that John Ramsey told Steward Long and JAR about finding Jonbenet at 11:00 o'clock once they arrive at the house in Boulder.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 08:20:50 PM
Did any of the Bolder law enforcement (LE) check the perimeter of the house to determine there were no signs of forced entry? I have heard a door was found later wide open. Were all visitors coming and going all restricted to leaving by the front door only?
The Butler's kitchen door was later found open. That suggests to me the killer left while the police were still there.

she was not postmortem (PM) examined till late that day. She was in rigor at 1:00 PM so there was plenty of time for rigor mortis to set in if death occurred at around 6:00 AM.

The time of death calculations were excluded from the autopsy report.

If the officers say there were no open doors found immediately after 6:00 AM but a door is found open later in the day. To me that is more evidence that someone slipped out of the house at a later time.

If you see a door closed and I see the same door open at a later time. That could be explained by someone leaving the door open at a time after you saw it closed rather than saying you or I were wrong.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 08:23:34 PM
So is that 3 bits of evidence in a sequence?

1. The phone line kept open because someone was listening in.
2. The cellar door held shut when an officer tries to open it, and
3.  Later the Butler's pantry door found ajar.

All 3 together pointing to intruder being there and leaving after the 5:52 AM 911 phone call.

So that clearly doesn't point to Patsy or John doing it.

I see the evidence of that when the officer thought the cellar door was painted shut, but we know it wasn't. How do you account for that bit of evidence?

We know the cellar door wasn't painted shut, so when the LE officer thought the door was painted shut, he was obviously in error.

Found it: From Steve Thomas's book page 20 "Officer Reichenbach tried the door and found resistance".

There was no reason IMO for resistance other than a killer holding the door shut.

full text ""The sergeant found no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house, then went outside. A light dusting of snow and frost lay atop an earlier crusty snow in spotty patches on the grass. He saw no fresh show impressions, found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in, but walking on the driveway and sidewalks left no visible prints. It was frigid, about nine degrees, and Reichenbach returned inside."
"He went down into the sprawling basement and walked through it. At the far end was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing."

 There was more than one officer doing this check. From what I read Officer French thinks it was an exterior door that couldn't be locked like that if someone had gone past there. Reichenbach read it differently. Two officers have two opinions, both wrong for different reasons.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
 Linda Arndt's notes said John told her the kids told him they took the family plane from Atlanta. Yet later JR's former wife, Lucinda provided the LE with an alibi that involved commercial flights. You can't have it both ways.

And you need to understand how the second indictment could be understood "they found that John and Patsy "did render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the 1st degree and child abuse resulting in death."

What did the Grand Jury think they did to deserve that indictment?


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 19, 2019, 09:14:51 PM
[I've struggled in making up my mind about which came first]

At this stage 8 months after writing this post I think the garrote was applied first, the fingernail marks to the neck indicate she was conscious.  IMO once she had been hit on the head she would have been unconscious.  The combination of brain swelling and the suffocation killed her after a lingering death a f hour or so later.]
In April I wrote:
Lou Smit is wrong saying the head wound did not come first. The changes within the brain tissue would take several hours to manifest. If the suffocation was done at 5:52 i.e. the moment the Ramseys phoned the police the blow to the head had to be before 4:00 AM.

 The garrote could have been applied earlier but not pulled tight enough to kill, at any stage of the night. But that was the killer's mistake because the pulling on the garrote converted the slip knot into a knot that didn't slip. This is a feature of the constrictor knot

" I take Lou's word for it, I've listened to the documentary and he was working from crime scene photos that didn't have a time stamp. Were they staged photos?"

"Actually the autopsy report has the head injury preceding the garroting."

"The reports I've seen agree with me that the time of death could be as late as 6:00 AM"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 24, 2019, 06:35:46 PM
"The suitcase?"
"In the basement where JonBenet was found, a blue suitcase rested by the wall directly below the broken window where an intruder may have sneaked in. Patsy Ramsey insisted that the suitcase didn’t belong to anyone in the family.Instead, she said that the killer must have brought it to stuff JonBenet’s body inside. However, the suitcase belonged to John’s eldest son, John Andrew, and the things inside were incredibly unnerving.Inside were a semen-encrusted blanket and a book by Dr. Seuss. At the time, John Andrew was a childless college student, far too old to be reading Dr. Seuss. But the semen on the blanket was proven to be his by a DNA test.The police didn’t take the suitcase investigation much further, though. They had already removed John Andrew from the list of suspects because they were confident that he wasn’t in town when the murder happened."
From article entitled "10 Strange Little-Known Facts About JonBenet Ramsey’s Family" https://listverse.com/2016/10/02/10-strange-little-known-facts-about-jonbenet-ramseys-family/?fbclid=IwAR0SngQT5Kp0Ilaek65GTzSFG5vXoWhTOG8gGkD7X9iCKZi9jrTX5cSryrw

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 24, 2019, 06:43:40 PM
"John Ramsey snr. has said he would lie to save his children, the reason he gave was "unconditional love" but if he thought that Patsy had done the crime he would dob her in for the love of a spouse is conditional."  I'm wishing I had taken the URL of that quote now.
(later in the thread I find and discuss what John Ramsey says.  This statement was in a Paula Woodman interview.)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 24, 2019, 07:02:48 PM
[Probably not my best post.  My current view SBTC could have a variety of meanings.]

This sentence is the cross of this case. https://youtu.be/-cw1w3zZXeY?t=265

"There is a problem with one of the doors it was stuck" That door was never stuck IMO it was being held shut by the killer.
Patsy and John and Burke were known to be elsewhere (in the residence), so it couldn't have been any of those three.

SBTC - Saved by the cross. The cross in this case was that stuck door, that felt stuck but in fact was being held shut from the inside the wine cellar.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 24, 2019, 08:10:05 PM

Law.com
"Federal Judge: 'No Evidence' That Ramseys Killed JonBenét"

I'm not sure where the original came from but a version here: http://truthinjustice.org/ramsey.htm?fbclid=IwAR2x9dQFNIyVb0GR1AWW9dFj8B3Ux0iI4aDtebR3Iq6uUg9xvXp3AoMnR3A
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 02:27:18 AM
Patsy Ramsey: "God knows who you are and we will find you." *pointing her finger at the killer *
https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=4890

It is hard to imagine that the person who committed that crime of murder would make such a claim to the world. Has it ever happened before?
I know people to swear an oath to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and yet lie.

The gravestone for Jonbenet is odd in that the date of her death is the 25th December 1996.
In my theory her death was on the day after on the 26th early in the morning thereof.
Inscription on the tomb:
LOVE, PURITY AND JOY
A GIFT TO HER FAMILY AND THE WORLD
HOME IN THE PEACE OF GOD
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/2745/jonben_t-ramsey

Others have noted John Ramsey can write a book and not mention John Andrew (JAR) at all. I noted he had an hour interview without a mention of JAR.   A book seems even longer.
If I had to nominate anyone I'd keep an eye on Melinda and John Andrew and how their alibis were backed by their mum Lucinda. Brad and Chris could be part of it too.
The LE (Law Enforcement or police in other words) tried to get to the truth back then. It would be virtually impossible now unless the evidence they have is released for public scrutiny.

The next bit is the basis of my theory:  "IMO it points to something happening between the Ramsey siblings. There was a huge fortune so there was plenty of motive to reduce the number of beneficiaries to the estate. I'd say any talk of a billion dollar business etc is enough to get some people scheming things. MONEY is a common theme in murders.
Top this off with the possible incestuous relationships between the kids, and Jonbenet beginning to speak about it, there could well be the additional motive to shut her up.
But the Ramsey family all had lawyers and they became impossible to crack.
But it is evident that the two older siblings were on the outer and were being given a cold Christmas, so I wouldn't be surprised they planned something to interfere with Patsy's birthday treat. - the Big Red Boat cruise.
The timing of finding JB at the moment JAR and Melinda turn up seems significant to me.
The way everything was made to point to Patsy is also very significant IMO."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 06:52:47 AM
Listen to what Chief Kolar has to say: https://youtu.be/bMtiVFzrN8o?t=1126

" according to John Ramsey's account one of the intruders must have remained hiding in the home long after the police arrived on the scene to investigate the kidnapping...."

That is what my theory demands as well.

Can anyone accept what Chief Kolar is saying, and what John Ramsey's account demands?

 It is the last thing anyone would suspect that morning that the kidnapper would still be on the property.
Once the friends are invited over for support any alarms would have been turned off.
So the exit is possible up through the kitchen and out the butlers door. That door was later found open.

[As I understand the floor plans there were two stairways in the basement, one to the kitchen and the other to the butlers kitchen.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 26, 2019, 08:03:22 AM
Can someone in the USA find out who was booked on the Big Red Boat tour on Patsy's birthday?

Were Burke and Jonbenet the only two kids booked or were they going to take all four of John's children?

Were John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda Ramsey also booked for that cruise?

Would Disneyland still have the bookings? Obviously everyone missed out.

Missing out on that tour could have been a sufficient sore point that the older kids might try to disrupt Patsy's plan.

Look there are those who say Burke lost his cool when JB ate a piece of his pineapple. Well if they think Burke could do this even when there was plenty of pineapple to go around, what could the others do if they were being short changed over their Christmas time with their dad?

[I have been informed from reliable sources that the elder kids were not booked on the Disney Big Red Boat cruise.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 03, 2019, 11:31:40 PM
If what is presented as a genuine DNA lab test result is correct, it leads me to doubt that Melinda is the biological child of John Bennett Ramsey (JBR).

There is one line of alleles that support my contention.  There are also multiple places where the  DNA result information is not displayed particularly common in the case of Melinda's results, and one line for JBR.

(it keeps on saying the file size is too large!)

The file in its original form is posted on a facebook group  https://www.facebook.com/groups/459528514379284/?ref=br_rs and then if you searched the group for the file number "20161101"  it should take you to the document.

Note: Never mind the Facebook entry has been modified and the form is no longer there. but I do have a copy on my computer, but I can't upload it to this site.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 04, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
at Loci D7s820 Melinda has no alleles in common with John Ramsey snr. so from that she is not John's biological daughter.
That is a surprise.
Well there are only two options:
1.  either there is an error in the lab results or
2. Melinda is not John Ramsey's biological daughter.

One or the other.

Half of Melinda's and half of JA's DNA profile will have come from the mother Lucinda.

It is not 9.9 but rather 9,9 meaning that Melinda is homologous for that allele at that locus, i.e she received a STR allele at that location of 9 from both her father and her mother, yet John Ramsey doesn't have that 9 allele to pass onto her. Therefore I say unless she was a very rare mutant or the lab has made an error, she is not the biological offspring of John Ramsey Snr.

I will not accept that Melinda is a biological daughter of John Ramsey. The genetic profile as given proves otherwise. I have no reason to argue that John didn't treat her as his own daughter nor that she didn't expect the same treatment as Jonbenet received.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 11, 2019, 07:25:28 PM
So in my theory John Ramsey (JBR) suspects his children from the previous marriage are involved.  He therefore gives them lawyers and helps that part of the family to organise an alibi for John Andrew Ramsey (JAR).

In my theory it is Melinda Ramsey who's alibi is under scrutiny.

Her presence in Atlanta is required for JAR's alibi.  I see nothing else to confirm Melinda was in Atlanta on the 26th.
Her conversations with various people detailed previously in this thread do not support the contention she flew with JAR to Denver on the morning of the 26th.

JBR is on record saying he would do anything to protect his kids from criminal charges.  I take that to mean even if the other kids were involved he would do his best to protect them from facing those charges.

I do believe it will be impossible to confirm Melinda's alibi for the morning of the 26th Dec 1996 so many years later, so it looks like the theory will remain just a theory.



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 24, 2019, 07:36:32 PM
Thanking those that are reading the new theory proposed here.  Note I have abandoned my research into the Jonbenet case as (I believe) the veracity of Melinda Ramsey's alibi will be impossible to confirm at this late stage.
[Obviously I have had a renewed attempt to solve this case.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 06, 2019, 02:11:22 AM
So in my theory John Ramsey (JBR) suspects his children from the previous marriage are involved.  He therefore gives them lawyers and helps that part of the family to organise an alibi for John Andrew Ramsey (JAR).

In my theory it is Melinda Ramsey who's alibi is under scrutiny.

Her presence in Atlanta is required for JAR's alibi.  I see nothing else to confirm Melinda was in Atlanta on the 26th.
Her conversations with various people detailed previously in this thread do not support the contention she flew with JAR to Denver on the morning of the 26th.

JBR is on record saying he would do anything to protect his kids from criminal charges.  I take that to mean even if the other kids were involved he would do his best to protect them from facing those charges.

I do believe it will be impossible to confirm Melinda's alibi for the morning of the 26th Dec 1996 so many years later, so it looks like the theory will remain just a theory.

There is also the pubic hair on the blanket that some say was attributed to Melinda.
There was also a partial palm print on the inner side of the wine cellar door.

They both could add weight to the argument she was there with JB in that room.

[The problem with hair or finger/palm prints that could just be from prior visits by Melinda to John and Patsy's home.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 06, 2019, 07:51:11 PM
Has anyone else theorised that Melinda Ramsey  was involved?

I know Burke has had the blame from time to time, but in my theory he was still in bed when the door was found "painted shut".  So it was NOT him holding the door shut from the other side.

John Andrew Ramsey's alibi was thoroughly checked, so that just about rules him out.

Did Melinda's alibi get the same scrutiny?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 09, 2019, 08:08:33 AM
Can't someone make a comment on the topic?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: puglove on May 09, 2019, 08:44:30 AM
Can't someone make a comment on the topic?

Burke, pineapple, torch, Kim Archuletta, ghastly parents.


 8((()*/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 09, 2019, 04:03:58 PM
Can't someone make a comment on the topic?


Patsy wrote the ransom note imo.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 10, 2019, 12:35:32 PM
Burke, pineapple, torch, Kim Archuletta, ghastly parents.


 8((()*/
Kim Archuletta - why don't I know that name.  Was he the pilot?

There was no pineapple in the stomach.
Torch - could have been used, but it had been wiped clean and left in the kitchen.
Parents - probably OK.
Burke - ??

"Why Didn't Kim Archuleta Testify In The JonBenet Ramsey Case? The 911 Dispatcher Wanted Her Voice To Be Heard"  That's right she was the 911 operator.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 10, 2019, 12:56:46 PM

Patsy wrote the ransom note imo.
The person that had handwriting very similar to the ransom note was Chris Wolf.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: puglove on May 12, 2019, 12:11:28 AM

Patsy wrote the ransom note imo.

imo2, Spammy. Patsy drove the whole thing from the beginning. She couldn't afford to lose another child. The ransom note is ridiculous. Written on her notepad, with her pen, and the garotte was her paintbrush. John just went along with it. Burke hit her over the head, just like he did with the golf club. Burke hated her, and the pineapple (which WAS found in her stomach) was the last straw. Burke used to crap in her bed. He was a freak, and he loathed her. And look at him now. Still a freak, desperately trying to cling onto his inheritance.

No one broke into that house. No one hated a little girl (except for Burke). Listen to the phone call.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 05:29:37 AM
imo2, Spammy. Patsy drove the whole thing from the beginning. She couldn't afford to lose another child. The ransom note is ridiculous. Written on her notepad, with her pen, and the garotte was her paintbrush. John just went along with it. Burke hit her over the head, just like he did with the golf club. Burke hated her, and the pineapple (which WAS found in her stomach) was the last straw. Burke used to crap in her bed. He was a freak, and he loathed her. And look at him now. Still a freak, desperately trying to cling onto his inheritance.

No one broke into that house. No one hated a little girl (except for Burke). Listen to the phone call.
When Patsy made that 911 call she had not read the note.  She didn't know what the note said, so she can't have written it.
Even though the ransom note is written in on her pad, with her pen, that doesn't mean Patsy wrote it.
But I will concede it feels like someone had it in for her.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: puglove on May 12, 2019, 07:46:46 AM
When Patsy made that 911 call she had not read the note.  She didn't know what the note said, so she can't have written it.
Even though the ransom note is written in on her pad, with her pen, that doesn't mean Patsy wrote it.

Mmm. You can't possibly know that, Rob. Patsy was as mad as a box of frogs.....have you heard the phone call?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on May 12, 2019, 10:32:40 AM
She said over the phone that it was a ransome note so must have skim read at least to know what it contained... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMrNtTPaSY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMrNtTPaSY)

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 12:38:28 PM
Mmm. You can't possibly know that, Rob. Patsy was as mad as a box of frogs.....have you heard the phone call?
Heaps of times.  She was in a panic when she found Jonbenet no longer in bed, but the letter was not addressed to her but Mr Ramsey.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 12, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
She said over the phone that it was a ransome note so must have skim read at least to know what it contained... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMrNtTPaSY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMrNtTPaSY)
She didn't read the full note before ringing the police.  She might have read the first page at most. IMO. 
She was asked if it says who took her and she says she doesn't know.  But then looks at the note and says "SBTC Victory".  Had she written it herself she would have known.

When I've listened to the call Patsy just says we have a note, not we have a ransom note first of all, but later, you are right, she does call it a ransom note.  https://youtu.be/NFMrNtTPaSY?t=40
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 22, 2019, 12:38:17 PM
This investigation doubts the current DNA finding.  https://media.9news.com/embeds/video/2462878/iframe?fbclid=IwAR1eRNbv2r7z4CnIjfhwkQRCb7fDoq8lE-9Nq8qgFb9wwf1vZj5FQv1h8MU
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: sadie on May 23, 2019, 01:30:34 PM
Such a lot of work gone into this analysis.  Well done Rob.

Wish I could join you, but unfortunately do not have the energy and my areas of main interest are Justice for Madeleine McCann and Joana Cipriana.  I think that Madeleine (probably both) are out there, just waiting to be found.  I want them found and returned to their families.

Sadly having both been torn away from their loved one, it will never be the same as it would have been.

All the above is in my opinion …. but I have a multitude of pointers especially in the Madeleine case … and even a name.

Sorry that I cant share.

All strength to your elbow Rob with the JonBenet case
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 25, 2019, 12:01:45 AM
Such a lot of work gone into this analysis.  Well done Rob.

Wish I could join you, but unfortunately do not have the energy and my areas of main interest are Justice for Madeleine McCann and Joana Cipriana.  I think that Madeleine (probably both) are out there, just waiting to be found.  I want them found and returned to their families.

Sadly having both been torn away from their loved one, it will never be the same as it would have been.

All the above is in my opinion …. but I have a multitude of pointers especially in the Madeleine case … and even a name.

Sorry that I cant share.

All strength to your elbow Rob with the JonBenet case

I have given up on the JonBenet case. 

I am stuck with the thoughts of the Old Testament where humans started to learn about justice.  There was an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth and a life for a life.

There was also the law about if a neighbour's child fell of your roof and died, then your child was killed to compensate.

But what if your own child fell off your own roof was there no justice for that?

If there was a family with two children and if one of the children killed  the other child, what does the "lord" want us to do about that?  Should the other child be put to death and leave the family childless?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 25, 2019, 11:54:43 AM
Is it true the law doesn't take into account the state of the family. 

If the penalty for first degree murder is the death sentence.
If there are only two siblings in a family and one murders the other, should the murderer be punished by death and leave the family childless?

From a religious point of view there seems to be softer approach to situations like this.  Does this affect the way the law enforcement look at a case like that?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 26, 2019, 10:49:38 AM
She didn't read the full note before ringing the police.  She might have read the first page at most. IMO. 
She was asked if it says who took her and she says she doesn't know.  But then looks at the note and says "SBTC Victory".  Had she written it herself she would have known.


Maybe more than on person wrote on the note? maybe the note was still being written as she was on the phone? someone else was there with her when she made the call.

I have always suspected the brother of pushing/hitting her. His 'Interviews are very telling'   He could be on some borderline/ spectrum. The parents trying to protect him is what I suspected from day one. He has ZERO empathy for his mums crying or sisters death!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2019, 11:45:19 AM

Maybe more than on person wrote on the note? maybe the note was still being written as she was on the phone? someone else was there with her when she made the call.

I have always suspected the brother of pushing/hitting her. His 'Interviews are very telling'   He could be on some borderline/ spectrum. The parents trying to protect him is what I suspected from day one. He has ZERO empathy for his mums crying or sisters death!
"More than one person wrote the note".  There were those who analysed and said things like it was written by a male but dictated by a female.  (One dictating and the other doing the writing.)  I think that is possible.

"someone else was there with her when she made the call".   Someone was there in the basement when the call was being made.  That is part of my new theory, but I'm not the first to propose that.

You say "I have always suspected the brother of pushing/hitting her". 
Burke is strange but the blow to Jonbenet's head seems more aggressive than what a child would do IMO.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 29, 2019, 12:27:13 PM
Large jump in views.  Was my theory mentioned on Facebook or Twitter?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Is it true the law doesn't take into account the state of the family. 

If the penalty for first degree murder is the death sentence.
If there are only two siblings in a family and one murders the other, should the murderer be punished by death and leave the family childless?

From a religious point of view there seems to be softer approach to situations like this.  Does this affect the way the law enforcement look at a case like that?
I might have been wrong about the religious aspect.  But certainly for a murder conviction there had to be 2 or 3 witnesses to the event.  How many witnesses were there to the Jonbenet murder?
I wonder what they considered "a witness"?  Do they have to actually observe the deed being done?

Wouldn't get many convictions in modern times if that was the standard.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2019, 08:57:12 PM
I might have been wrong about the religious aspect.  But certainly for a murder conviction there had to be 2 or 3 witnesses to the event.  How many witnesses were there to the Jonbenet murder?
I wonder what they considered "a witness"?  Do they have to actually observe the deed being done?

Wouldn't get many convictions in modern times if that was the standard.
Maybe witnesses with hearsay and witnesses hearing confessions were considered "witnesses". 
I can see how the law and the law of evidence has built up over the  thousands of years.  Even if as a civilisation we went through the Dark Ages as well. But history isn't my strong point. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 31, 2019, 08:47:56 PM
"More than one person wrote the note".  There were those who analysed and said things like it was written by a male but dictated by a female.  (One dictating and the other doing the writing.)  I think that is possible.

"someone else was there with her when she made the call".   Someone was there in the basement when the call was being made.  That is part of my new theory, but I'm not the first to propose that.

You say "I have always suspected the brother of pushing/hitting her". 
Burke is strange but the blow to Jonbenet's head seems more aggressive than what a child would do IMO.
446, 450, 456, 484.


Some children with'special needs' can have the strength of  an adult! You ever tried putting on shoes of a two year old who doesn't want to comply?  I do believe that the brother is on some kind of 'spectrum'

He was cruel to his sister as  a family friend had mentioned - who was shunned after talking out.  It was this behaviour and the spiders web still in tact on the corner of the inside window that convinced me it was a 'family' situation which took place.  There is no way someone came in and out of that small space leaving a spiders web intact. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 31, 2019, 09:25:13 PM

Some children with'special needs' can have the strength of  an adult! You ever tried putting on shoes of a two year old who doesn't want to comply?  I do believe that the brother is on some kind of 'spectrum'

He was cruel to his sister as  a family friend had mentioned - who was shunned after talking out.  It was this behaviour and the spiders web still in tact on the corner of the inside window that convinced me it was a 'family' situation which took place.  There is no way someone came in and out of that small space leaving a spiders web intact. Just my opinion.
I respect that opinion but I did speak to someone who climbed up through that window and they didn't go near the cobweb either.  OK IMO there was more than one intruder involved, and one of them may have exited via the basement window.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 10, 2019, 11:58:35 PM
So is that 3 bits of evidence in a sequence? The phone line kept open because someone was listening in. The cellar door held shut when an officer tries to open it, and later the Butler's pantry door found ajar. All 3 together pointing to intruder being there and leaving after the 5:52 AM 911 phone call.

So that clearly doesn't point to Patsy or John doing it.

I see the evidence of that when the officer thought the cellar door was painted shut, but we know it wasn't. How do you account for that bit of evidence?

Found it: From Steve Thomas's book page 20 "Officer Reichenbach tried the door and found resistance".

There was no reason IMO for resistance other than a killer holding the door shut.

full text ""The sergeant found no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house, then went outside. A light dusting of snow and frost lay atop an earlier crusty snow in spotty patches on the grass. He saw no fresh show impressions, found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in, but walking on the driveway and sidewalks left no visible prints. It was frigid, about nine degrees, and Reichenbach returned inside."
"He went down into the sprawling basement and walked through it. At the far end was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing."

 There was more than one officer doing this check. From what I read Officer French thinks it was an exterior door that couldn't be locked like that if someone had gone past there. Reichenbach read it differently. Two officers have two opinions, both wrong for different reasons.

If anyone is aware of this case and takes on board these three key points:
1. The phone line kept open because someone was listening in.
2. The cellar door held shut when an officer tries to open it,
3.  and later the Butler's pantry door found ajar.

They ought to come to this conclusion:  "All 3 together pointing to intruder being there and leaving after the 5:52 AM 911 phone call.  John and Patsy didn't do it."

So that clearly doesn't point to Patsy or John doing it.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 15, 2019, 01:52:12 AM
How good was Melinda's alibi?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 04, 2019, 03:24:54 AM
What police confirm about JonBenet Ramsey's slaying:

• JonBenet was last seen Christmas night at her usual bedtime, though police would not say by whom or what the "usual bedtime" was.

• The crime was originally reported as a kidnapping at 5:22 a.m. Thursday when Patsy Ramsey called 911.

• A handwritten ransom note was found at the house requesting $118,000.

• Between 1:30 and 2 p.m. Thursday, an undisclosed family member found JonBenet's body in the basement. Police ruled the death a homicide.

• The autopsy revealed that JonBenet had been strangled.

• There were no signs of a break-in at the house.

• Many people - including multiple housekeepers, gardeners, caterers and a landscaper - had keys to the house.

• Police collected blood, hair and handwriting samples from John Ramsey and his children. No samples were collected from Patsy Ramsey.

• John Ramsey hired Denver criminal lawyer Bryan Morgan.

• The family traveled to Atlanta - JonBenet's birthplace - for her funeral.

Thanks to Jameson Bennett https://www.facebook.com/groups/459528514379284/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on July 11, 2019, 12:18:08 AM
Why did John's former wife, daughter and son who claim to be in Atlanta all require attorneys?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 10, 2019, 01:16:51 AM
The number of people who have looked at this thread is steadily rising and I'd contemplated writing a post when it hit the 900 views.  OK that is what I thought  but it isn't easy generating something new without a truck load of effort.
I looked at several websites but it was the same old stuff being rehashed and there was nothing new.  Sorry for letting you all down.

PS - the threat took 5 months to get 900 views and now it is rising at around 200 per day.  There is still quite a strong interest in this case.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 18, 2019, 08:47:25 PM
From a Facebook group that discusses the case

"BOULDER, CO — Boulder Deputy Police Chief Carey Weinheimer, a 29-year veteran of the Boulder Police Department, will serve as interim police chief when Chief Greg Testa retires Sept. 3. Testa has served as Boulder Police Chief since 2014.

Weinheimer is expected to serve in the role for about 10 months until a new police chief is hired in 2020.

"Deputy Chief Weinheimer has played an essential role in maintaining the high standards of the department and in building our strong relationships with community members to ensure the Boulder Department continues to represent Boulder's values and a safe community for all individuals who live, work and visit here," said Jane Brautigam, Boulder city manager, in a statement. "I am confident that Deputy Chief Weinheimer is well prepared to lead the department with the full support of the leadership team and the respect of our officers throughout the organization."

Testa, who worked for the Boulder Police Department for 32 years, said it's been an "honor to serve the community."

Weinheimer joined the Boulder Police Department in 1990, and has since served as an officer, detective, sergeant, commander and deputy chief. He has been closely involved in the management of the police department and has worked with the city organization to launch the first-ever Boulder Stop Data Report, the city said. Weinheimer also is a member of the city's racial equity team and works with the Government Alliance on Racial Equity to improve treatment of all community members.

"We are fortunate that our police department is a healthy organization, and one that continues to challenge itself to be innovative, transparent and to reflect our community values," said Brautigam. "Deputy Chief Weinheimer understands the Police Department and the community. I am confident that he will be a strong interim chief until a new police chief is selected."

The city will conduct a search process for the next chief of police beginning in the fourth quarter of this year.

"In our search for Boulder's next police chief, understanding this community's values, maintaining strong department leadership, and partnering with residents to ensure Boulder has a transparent and equitable police force is essential" Brautigam said. "As part of our selection process, we will provide opportunities for the community to meet with the finalists and provide input on the candidates."

A date has not yet been set to fill the position. The city will work closely with law enforcement officers from outside organizations to evaluate candidates on policing standards, leadership, experience and preparedness to serve the Boulder community as chief of police."
https://www.facebook.com/groups/459528514379284/


You could imagine there are more important things to do than to look into a 23 year old cold case.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 20, 2019, 12:07:53 PM
JONBENET RAMSEY (HOMICIDE)
JonBenet Ramsey
JonBenet Ramsey was six years old when she was reported missing on Dec. 26, 1996, after her family reported finding a ransom note inside their home in the 700 block of 15th Street. Her body was found in a basement room, and a later autopsy revealed that the cause of her death was strangulation.

Anyone with information about JonBenet Ramsey’s homicide is asked to contact the Boulder Police Department Tipline at 303-441-1974 or BouldersMostWanted@bouldercolorado.gov. Those who have information but wish to remain anonymous may contact the Northern Colorado Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477). Tips may also be submitted through the Crime Stoppers website at crimeshurt.com. Those submitting tips through Crime Stoppers that lead to the arrest and filing of charges on a suspect(s) may be eligible for a cash reward from Crime Stoppers."

https://bouldercolorado.gov/police/jonbenet-ramsey-homicide
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2019, 06:43:59 PM
I have emailed the above address, and I have asked the Boulder police to look into the points I make in this thread for the police to look at Melinda Ramsey's alibi.

In around the following post URL is where I detail the conversations that don't add up: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg516466#msg516466

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 31, 2019, 11:58:09 AM
Thanking you all for reading the theory.  Over 1000 views, OK a couple of a hundred will be mine when making the 50 odd posts.
Well no reply acknowledgement from the Boulder Police.  I wonder if they got the message?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2019, 10:34:45 PM
Well what is the new theory?

The theory is much harder to define.  In this new theory Melinda is involved somehow.

The possible pubic hair,  the possible palm print,  possibly having access keys, possible knowledge of John's bonus, possible envy? Possible knowledge of the wine cellar, and knowledge of the phone system in the house.  Knowledge of Patsy's writing style.  Not knowing what was going on, therefore possibly not travelling with John Andrew Ramsey that morning yet that is her alibi.

So where was she really?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2019, 11:23:52 PM
This is a good summary of the history of the case
How It Really Happened: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? Part 1/2

https://youtu.be/dH283KvWXl4

Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHsu_IybsB4

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2019, 08:34:54 PM
This is a good summary of the history of the case
How It Really Happened: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? Part 1/2

https://youtu.be/dH283KvWXl4

Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHsu_IybsB4

Specific areas on those videos raised some of the issues explained in this new theory.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2019, 08:43:45 AM
One point I had not made was that John Ramsey had a phone call from the kids and Linda Arndt  wrote in her notes that the kids were taking a private plane from Atlanta, yet later in their own alibi they said they took a commercial flight. 
I wish I had the actual reference for this now, but that is how I recall it.
That seems a massive discrepancy to me.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2019, 08:31:24 PM
There are some amazing documentaries on the Jonbenet case  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgwPUHvA87U
"Overkill: The Unsolved Murder of JonBenét Ramsey" 

How come no one had been in the wine cellar before 6 hours after the phone call?  To me that is bollocks!  How come John was getting agitated just before the two kids from a previous marriage were about to arrive?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2019, 09:15:03 PM
I'd like to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eC_EyIEOuI  "Perfect Murder Perfect Town - JonBenet and the City of Boulder (2000)" again but can't justify the time at the moment.
(In fact I've listened to the soundtrack 2 times recently).

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2019, 08:23:05 PM
I'd like to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eC_EyIEOuI  "Perfect Murder Perfect Town - JonBenet and the City of Boulder (2000)" again but can't justify the time at the moment.
I've listened to that soundtrack twice now and there were two things said that clash with the "New Theory".

1.  They say Chris Wolfe was eliminated from writing the ransom note, yet IMO the style of his handwriting that I saw was very similar to the note.

2. The kids from the previous marriage are eliminated  for some reason.

In the film the parents are waiting for a call from the kidnappers, and one of the kids from the previous marriage phones in and John says "I can't talk now I'll call you back".  I wonder if that happened?

Was that phone call traced.  Was it ever determined if it was possible for the kids to call John at that time while they were supposed to be flying?
 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2019, 10:14:09 PM
Patsy explaining why the note was written in the style it was  https://youtu.be/6eC_EyIEOuI?t=5880

"it may have been written by a woman"

https://youtu.be/6eC_EyIEOuI?t=5960  John speak of who calls  but no actual time is given.

"I spoke to my older children"

It was after speaking to his older children he went down to the basement and possibly closed the window.  Why would he be altering the crime scene?
Did he really go on to say "I can't believe it is someone we know"?

(The spots are not exact but generally in the right place.)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 26, 2019, 02:00:25 AM
Melinda Ramsey and John Andrew Ramsey were both cleared early in the investigation, but I plead that their alibis may have faults.
https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 26, 2019, 09:02:07 AM
Linda Arndt was the detective who remained at the Ramsey residence up to the time John finds Jonbenet.

In her report which in part is on the internet https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf.

Some of the names mentioned are redacted, but the bit that really interested me was the information on page 11. 

John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda ring to the house at a time not recorded in the notes, but they ring at separate times, which in some way suggests to me they weren't in the same place at the same time.

Linda Arndt records "John Andrew and Melinda had taken the family's private plane from Atlanta and had flown to Minneapolis."

Who told Linda Arndt that they had flown on the private plane?

This seems to be at odds with what I understand to be in their official alibi.  Didn't they say they flew commercially?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2019, 08:36:10 AM
Comment "Det Arndt reported NO calls were received before 10:00 am and she noted that because the Ramseys didn't really seem to care or notice."
My Reply:
"Maybe they had called in fact, but not to claim any money."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 06, 2019, 10:04:26 AM
Linda Arndt seemed to imply John Ramsey murdered Jonbenet.   OK it is a bit odd that John thought Jonbenet was still possibly alive when he brought her up from the basement.  That bit I don't believe at all. 

In my theory he knew she was dead in the wine cellar, and he brought her out of there before the other children from the first marriage arrived on the scene.

OK if my theory was right how did he get to know Jonbenet was in the wine cellar?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 09, 2019, 10:35:33 AM
'"MSNBC's Time & Again looks at the JonBenét Ramsey Murder Mystery in this TV special from 1998. Featuring Jane Pauley and Roger O'Neil."  "JonBenét Ramsey Murder - Who Did It? (1998)" https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8


Covers a few of the news announcements.   It covers the bit about John Andrew's and Melinda's alibis.

Why would the father John Ramsey contaminate the evidence? https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8?t=285

Alibis =  https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8?t=350



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
https://youtu.be/etyyBGG1Ahs  "Connecting Point: John & Patsy Ramsey Part I"

In this interview John talks about his other two children.  There is such a pause before he mentions Melinda it is surprising, but John says she has 3 boys, 3 more grand kids for the Ramseys.
They keep on harping on about the loss of Beth, but virtually no mention of Melinda.
The bit about John Douglas is significant.  JD says it is someone who was angry or jealous of John Ramsey. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etyyBGG1Ahs&feature=youtu.be&t=639

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 13, 2019, 01:27:43 AM
It was the things that John Ramsey talks about here that made me wonder if the jealousy and hatred wasn't actually within the family.

Who gets the first Christmas, who gets the second Christmas?

Were the older children invited onto the Big Red Boat cruise too?  https://youtu.be/FEv-4BsEu5A?t=247  His Story - John Ramsey (J1652)

The kids:  https://youtu.be/FEv-4BsEu5A?t=1623
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 13, 2019, 10:47:24 PM
Linda Arndt was the detective who remained at the Ramsey residence up to the time John finds Jonbenet.

In her report which in part is on the internet https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf.

Some of the names mentioned are redacted, but the bit that really interested me was the information on page 11. 

John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda ring to the house at a time not recorded in the notes, but they ring at separate times, which in some way suggests to me they weren't in the same place at the same time.

Linda Arndt records "John Andrew and Melinda had taken the family's private plane from Atlanta and had flown to Minneapolis."

Who told Linda Arndt that they had flown on the private plane?

This seems to be at odds with what I understand to be in their official alibi.  Didn't they say they flew commercially?
When I think of it why would the kids ring John Ramsey on the 26th.   Was it to see why John and Patsy weren't waiting to meet up with them at the Minneapolis airport?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2019, 12:51:31 AM
When I think of it why would the kids ring John Ramsey on the 26th.   Was it to see why John and Patsy weren't waiting to meet up with them at the Minneapolis airport?
I'd love to see the phone records for the incoming calls to the Ramsey house.    How did John Andrew and Melinda ring home to Boulder?  Were they using a payphone or a cellphone?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2019, 12:59:13 AM
Started a Google search for "jonbenet Ramsey + phone records. 

And first hit came up with something I've never heard of before:

"The Missing December Cell Phone Records
Discussion
This element of the case puzzles me. Steve Thomas goes on and on about how the DA's office denied subpoenas for Ramsey phone records, but after a year the police got a signed limited permission slip from John Ramsey to view his home and cell phone records between December 1 and December 27, 1996. The home phone records were unremarkable and the cell phone records were blank for the month of December. Thomas says Ramsey had the account since 1994 and prior months averaged 90-100 minutes of activity.

Here's the section from Thomas's book:

The Air Touch cell phone records were useless...December, the only period we were allowed to see, was empty. No calls at all. I asked if someone could remove billing records from the computer? "No way," the Air Touch source told me. "All these months preceding December are busy, and not one call was logged for that entire month?" The representative was firm: "There ain't no way anybody altered these records."

link to passage

Question: Can someone have altered the records? Edit for more questions: Is this the worst investigation in the history of crime that all phone records were not subpoenaed within the first few weeks? Does anyone know what this DA was afraid of?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/axt887/the_missing_december_cell_phone_records/

What are the chances of that that John made no cellphone calls in December!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2019, 10:05:27 AM
The ransom note said the kidnappers would contact them tomorrow, which to me suggests the ransom note was written before midnight. 
Well even if John and others could debate which day is tomorrow, there is now the problem knowing what phone number would have been called.
Was it the landline,
Or the phone that has been claimed to be lost.
Or one of John's work phones?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2019, 12:34:08 PM
Still one of the most interesting cases IMO.

It was very rare to have such a long rambling kidnap note.

But it is likely to be someone jealous and angry at John Ramsey. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2019, 04:53:13 PM
In the case examined in "My Dirty Little Secret: Death By Cheerleader (True Crime) | Crime Documentary | Reel Truth Crime"  the perpetrator claimed she had an alibi, but with further investigation it was found there was a short period she had left work and returned home to burn the house.

She was a nurse too, with access to deadly drugs.  https://youtu.be/wDH1INHVSiM
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 18, 2019, 03:12:31 AM
Another YouTube that coivers the alibis in a bit more depth.  https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8   "JonBenét Ramsey Murder - Who Did It? (1998)"

Do they work out who did it?  I must have missed that bit.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 19, 2019, 12:07:39 PM
"The Murder Of Jonbenet" https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho

There is a special part of this video that encourages me to think my theory is correct.

https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=1940 is the start of the story about the Grand Jury.

https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2232  Results of Grand Jury decision released.

When John Ramsey is interviewed: https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2350.    "Accessory - that's absurd"  Is that really true?



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 08:13:16 AM
Finally relocated the interview of John Ramsey where he makes the statement of unconditional love for his kids, but not his spouse  https://youtu.be/_bMKzzGoWEQ?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho  is the general interview.  I'll have to go back through the long video  to get the specific location.  Over all it is a great interview well worth watching if you are  interested in solving the case.
I notice there is another section of the interview where he struggles to say a good thing about the other two kids.  He gets in a real muddle in fact.

How often has he mentioned his love for Melinda?  Or John Andrew?  Yet he grieves over Beth and Jonbenet.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
https://youtu.be/_bMKzzGoWEQ?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2154  Unconditional love

"I would do anything to protect my children"  see on the video what he looks like when he realises he has made this confession.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:57:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMKzzGoWEQ&feature=youtu.be&list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2280

"If you thought it was anyone in your family that person would be reported immediately?"

John Ramsey "Absolutely".

Now this interview is 3 years after the event, maybe he feels differently at the time to what may have been his fears on the 26th Dec.

He bows his head at the end of that statement.  Saying he would report but shaking head as saying "no"!!!

Being of a religious bent myself it might be possible the bending of the head downwards could be a moment of prayer, here's the sort of prayer  I might attempt: "Please Lord forgive me If I lied, for my love for my kids is unconditional"

Is a father justified in the eyes of God for lying to save the life of his only living daughter?   Who are we to know the answer to that?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:08:04 PM
"The Murder Of Jonbenet" https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho

There is a special part of this video that encourages me to think my theory is correct.

https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=1940 is the start of the story about the Grand Jury.

https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2232  Results of Grand Jury decision released.

When John Ramsey is interviewed: https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho&t=2350.    "Accessory - that's absurd"  Is that really true?

If my theory is correct John Ramsey was helping his daughter Melinda.   The only way Melinda could be involved is if her alibi is untrue.  To prove it was untrue would require the telephone log of John Ramsey's phone, what phone did she ring from?  Where was that phone calling from?  But surprise surprise the phone log for John Ramsey for the whole of December was blank.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:19:50 PM
Still one of the most interesting cases IMO.

It was very rare to have such a long rambling kidnap note.

But it is likely to be someone jealous and angry at John Ramsey.
Who could get more angry and jealous at John than his other daughter?  Were they having it hard being raised by their mother at the time when it is reported that the business started by John Ramsey either had a billion dollar turnover or a billion dollar profit.  Who better to know about the $118,000 bonus that John received.  Was any of that bonus going to be shared by the older kids?   I'd love to know which of the kids was booked on the "Big Red Boat" cruise?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:24:55 PM
When I think of it why would the kids ring John Ramsey on the 26th.   Was it to see why John and Patsy weren't waiting to meet up with them at the Minneapolis airport?
When you think about it, if there was a 3 hour flight on a private plane from Boulder to Minneapolis, when John Andrew gets to Minneapolis from Atlanta, the last place he would think that John and Patsy to be would be that they were still at home.  It would IMO be pointless ringing the landline.   So most likely John Andrew called his dad on a cellphone call.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2019, 11:42:03 PM
The following exposes details of John Ramsey's motives:
https://youtu.be/_Cl4VlcnCcA?t=243

"the police did find a motive.  To cover up the crime if Burke or Patsy did it".    OK does the same hold true if Melinda and John Andrew did it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 23, 2019, 01:39:31 AM
Finally relocated the interview of John Ramsey where he makes the statement of unconditional love for his kids, but not his spouse  https://youtu.be/_bMKzzGoWEQ?list=PL_WQ9KQpPJqPEASbIr-WscUVUU4aCPuho  is the general interview.  I'll have to go back through the long video  to get the specific location.  Over all it is a great interview well worth watching if you are  interested in solving the case.
I notice there is another section of the interview where he struggles to say a good thing about the other two kids.  He gets in a real muddle in fact.

How often has he mentioned his love for Melinda?  Or John Andrew?  Yet he grieves over Beth and Jonbenet.

In this video there is a section where John Ramsey struggles over "the older children".

https://youtu.be/SBF62bam2GA?t=12  "The Number 1 Thing That Proves John Ramsey Is Responsible For Jonbenet's Death!"  Well I don't agree that John Ramsey is responsible for Jonbenet's death.

But look at the clip for the next minute or so. Patsy seems totally away with the fairies (possible medication).

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 23, 2019, 07:50:49 AM
In this video there is a section where John Ramsey struggles over "the older children".

https://youtu.be/SBF62bam2GA?t=12  "The Number 1 Thing That Proves John Ramsey Is Responsible For Jonbenet's Death!"  Well I don't agree that John Ramsey is responsible for Jonbenet's death.

But look at the clip for the next minute or so. Patsy seems totally away with the fairies (possible medication).

Rough transcript of the above segment starting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBF62bam2GA&feature=youtu.be&t=10

The Ramseys were on CNN 24 hours after burying Jonbenet.  CNN interview 1st Jan 1977
Compere: "December the 28th the Ramsey family heads to the Police Station to submit hair, blood and hand writing samples."

JR: Patsy and I, Burke our son who's aged 9, every family member."
Larry King: "Including the two elder children?"

JR: "(NODS in agreement)"
Larry King: "Were you embarrassed by that"

JR: "(Turns to Patsy to allow her to speak)"


Once again John doesn't mention the elder kids by name, and he won't speak about them.  What is the issue?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 24, 2019, 08:47:17 AM
It is horrible when large chunks of doubt hit you. 

But I promise those that read the entire thread and go to the links provided, I will do my best to validate every point I make.  That means a lot of work is required on my part.

Thank you all for reading the thread. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 24, 2019, 11:23:22 AM
I listened to the "websleuths Radio Podcast" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6AjNI9hhXE "Websleuths Radio Podcast The Truth About The JonBenet Ramsey Case"  and on that one they interview the forensic pathologist Cyril Harrison Wecht  and he says Jonbenet died from the head injury rather than the strangulation, yet I had opinioned that it was the other way around.

I'm going to have to understand the situation, but who can match Dr. Cyril Wecht's experience (30,000 autopsies).

https://youtu.be/D6AjNI9hhXE?t=585.   

Does that mean Jonbenet survived for another 2 hours after the blow to the head?  Could Jonbenet have been found alive if the police had immediately entered the wine cellar after the 911 call made by Patsy?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 24, 2019, 09:38:04 PM
the "websleuths Radio Podcast" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6AjNI9hhXE "Websleuths Radio Podcast The Truth About The JonBenet Ramsey Case"  very interesting that Dr. Wecht  proposes that the killer shook Jonbenet? 
Was she being cared for to some extent?  Did someone show her concern?  He makes a point of the gentleness of the killer.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2019, 10:39:45 AM
the "websleuths Radio Podcast" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6AjNI9hhXE "Websleuths Radio Podcast The Truth About The JonBenet Ramsey Case"  very interesting that Dr. Wecht  proposes that the killer shook Jonbenet? 
Was she being cared for to some extent?  Did someone show her concern?  He makes a point of the gentleness of the killer.
I have not got over the thought of someone showing concern for Jonbenet once she was in the real bad state.

Was she just left to die?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 25, 2019, 07:44:02 PM
I have not got over the thought of someone showing concern for Jonbenet once she was in the real bad state.

Was she just left to die?
Usually, as I have been told, if a child dies and there are signs showing the cadaver is cared for in death the perpetrator is most likely a member of the family. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2019, 06:31:48 PM
Usually, as I have been told, if a child dies and there are signs showing the cadaver is cared for in death the perpetrator is most likely a member of the family.
I gained this knowledge from listening to literally hundreds of videos about murders presented on YouTube.   I tried to find an actual article that may have scientifically studied this but I have not been able to locate a suitable study.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 26, 2019, 11:55:13 PM
Profiling seems a bit hit and miss.  But there have been enough cases to show that if the body receives some reverence after death it is likely that the perpetrator knew the victim, possibly had feelings for that person.
This must mean that the sister of Jonbenet is in the equation.
OK I can't find a definitive answer, and whether the Boulder Law Enforcement will ever be interested in taking another look into Melinda's alibi, we'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 27, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
Intersting you thnk of the sister as the family member who requires a closer look. My eyes have never left Burke. from early on. I was just perplexed that someone  could manage to get in and out of a small window which needed elevation- and didn't disturb a spiders web.  It is always the little unimportant things that grab my attention.

Well done for sticking to it Rob.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 12:46:17 AM
Looking into the alibis as we know them:
"John Andrew, Melinda, and her fiance Stewart Long took a flight from Atlanta to Duluth, MN on the morning of 26 Dec. There they were supposed to rendezvous with the others at 11 a.m. CT and continue to Charlevoix, MI (sp?) in John's plane. John contacted his pilot Mike Archuletta, told him what was going on early that morning, told him that he was to contact John Andrew and Melinda when they landed in MN, fill them in on what was going on, and for them to take the first flight to Denver. From the Denver airport they took a cab to the Ramsey house and arrived there sometime between 1:30-2. (Info is from ch 2-3 of DoI)"  from Websleuths.

DoI is John Ramsey's book "Death of Innocence".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 12:54:53 AM
From Websleuths:
"Out of the blue Melinda Ramsey told detective Gosage about a very odd set
of circumstances the morning of the crime. When they arrived at the home at about 1pm-they knew almost nothing about what was happening, they just came to help-John came running out the door and jumped into their van sobbing and broke down and blared how jon was 'with Beth and the angels' and told how he found the body around 11pm WHAT...Now he is saying that he found the body 2 hours before he had told police he found it that morning."

I assume it was meant to be 11 AM rather than 11 PM.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 01:03:46 AM
From Websleuths

"The palm print was Melinda's (John's daughter) from one of her visits before the murder."

As far as I know you can't tell when a fingerprint or palm print is made.  You can only identify it.

Source of that was "CNN.com - Transcripts

According to Larry Schiller:

"There`s a palm print and a fingerprint still unidentified. So there`s a lot of evidence that the police are still running down.""  I have not yet confirmed the source is still available.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 01:37:05 AM
This is next bit is interesting.  Did John Andrew Ramsey and Melinda claim to fly separately from Atlanta?
from Websleuths:

"Kolar adds one more thing you may find relevant based on your assumption that he would be calling his pilot to facilitate the older kids' travel plans.
"At one point that morning, while the family and police investigators still awaited the ransom call, pilot Mike Archuleta volunteered to fly to Minnesota to intercept the commercial jet carrying Melinda and Stewart -the suggestion being that he could quickly meet the kids and ferry them back to Boulder, thus avoiding the hassle of their having to arrange a new commercial flight into Denver. John Ramsey nixed the idea, and I wondered why he didn’t want to take advantage of his pilot’s offer to shortcut the uncertainty of the availability of flights that would divert the kids to Colorado. I gave thought to the idea that perhaps he had declined this offer because he wanted to be assured of his private plane being accessible for a quick departure from the state. What came later seemed to confirm that piece of speculation."

I must get Kolar's book, I have a feeling he was onto it.

How come John Andrew is not mentioned in this conversation?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 02:12:53 AM
From Websleuths:

" "Perfect Murder Perfect Town". The hardcover edition, page 231, lists that an investigator proved that JAR had received and ATM withdrawal and had receipt along with being accompanied by a friend ( further proof) at 9pm Christmas night. Also Melinda (JAR's sister) had awakened JAR early in order to make an 8:30 am flight."

The ATM withdrawal certainly helps with JAR's alibi abut Melinda's alibi still soft IMO.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:45:00 AM
From Websleuths, but with a non-referenced cite it reads:  "In a telephone interview, Stewart Long, the boyfriend of John Ramsey’s daughter Melinda, recounted for me the sudden rush to reach Colorado that he, Melinda, and her brother, John Andrew, had made on the morning of December 26. When they arrived at the Ramsey home shortly after 1 P.M., they were unaware of anything more than that JonBenét had been kidnapped.

Long said that John Ramsey climbed into a van with him and John Andrew and told them that JonBenét “was with Beth now.” The father and son broke down in tears as John Ramsey described how he had discovered the body around eleven o’clock that morning.

I almost dropped the telephone as I reached to make sure the “record” button was pressed on my tape recorder. “When you say eleven o’clock that morning, are you assuming that was Mountain time or Eastern time?”

“I’m assuming that was Mountain time. He said eleven o’clock, so I’m assuming he was speaking of his own time reference.”"

So Stewart is saying JAR and himself were in the van when John told them it was 11:00 AM when he found Jonbenet.  Where was Melinda?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 07:53:40 AM
This post on Websleuths is really weird  "John's story about having the plane clean to impress Melinda doesn't make sense when you consider how untidy his house was. I'm sure Melinda would have been very impressed how clean the wheels were. Do wheels get oil and fuel leaks?"

When was the plane cleaned to impress Melinda?  Which plane?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 08:16:45 AM
Then later I noticed John appear to make an error in the CNN interview with Lary King:

"J. RAMSEY: You mean, when did they find her?

KING: Yes.

J. RAMSEY: Well, they found her later that morning.

KING: Hours?

J. RAMSEY: Hours, hours."

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

What is this about "they found her"?  I thought John Ramsey found her.

Who found her first?  Was it White and Fernie?  White admits to going into the wine cellar around 10:00.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 06:36:19 PM
This post on Websleuths is really weird  "John's story about having the plane clean to impress Melinda doesn't make sense when you consider how untidy his house was. I'm sure Melinda would have been very impressed how clean the wheels were. Do wheels get oil and fuel leaks?"

When was the plane cleaned to impress Melinda?  Which plane?
Contrast that claim with this post.

"With regard to JAR's alibi, I do believe that LE (law enforcement) reported checking the flight records from Atlanta to Minneapolis, and JAR's transportation was confirmed, along with Melinda and Stewart. JR had them use Delta, so they could get 'cheap' non-stop tickets."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 08:36:35 PM
From a reliable source:

"Some excerpts from IRMI and PMPT 

[IRMI = JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,
PMPT = Perfect Murder Perfect Town]

In the following days, we documented the whereabouts of John Andrew Ramsey on the night his little stepsister was killed. Although the family had been of minimal help, Gosage and I backtracked through interviews, records, friends, and associates to put him officially in the Atlanta-Marietta area, except for about six hours when he was presumably asleep at his mother’s home. Unless there was a far-reaching conspiracy or a Harrier jet in the backyard, he didn’t do it.

also

On the last day of the month, I wrote in an exhaustive report that “one can conclude John Andrew Ramsey’s whereabouts have been reasonably accounted for.” A few days later the city spokesperson announced that both John Andrew and his sister Melinda had been cleared of suspicion.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation


Detective Kim Stewart interviewed Melinda for almost two and a half hours. Detectives Ron Gosage and Steve Thomas questioned her brother from 6:00 to 8:00 P.M.
Twenty-year-old John Andrew was obviously upset, but he was composed enough to explain that he was a student at CU and had been in Boulder until December 19. Then he had gone to Atlanta to spend the first part of his vacation with his mother, Lucinda Johnson, and his sister and friends. Then the plan was to continue his vacation with his sister, father, stepmother, and their children. He said his father had arranged to meet him and his sister in Minneapolis at about 10:30 A.M. on December 26, and from there they would all continue to the house in Charlevoix, Michigan.
In the months that followed, the police would confirm that John Andrew, his mother, and her friend Harry Smiles had attended the Peachtree Presbyterian Church in Atlanta on Christmas Eve and that John Andrew had returned to his mother’s home at 1:00 A.M.
Melinda, who worked at a hospital in Marietta, Georgia, finished her shift at about 7:00 A.M. on Christmas Day. That afternoon, John Andrew, Harry Smiles, Melinda, and her boyfriend, Stewart Long, exchanged gifts at Lucinda’s home in Marietta. In the afternoon they all went across the street to a neighbor’s for dinner.
Melinda and Stewart Long left the dinner party about 7:00 P.M., and Melinda started to pack for an early flight the next day. At 9:00 they went to visit Guy Long, Stewart’s uncle, and after visiting other friends were home by midnight.
At about 8:30 P.M., John Andrew went to his friend Brad Millard’s home in Marietta to play video games. After an hour, they left to catch a 10:30 show at the Town and Country Movie Theaters in Marietta with another friend, Chris Stanley.
John Andrew said that after the movie he went back to Brad Millard’s house to get his car and arrived back at his mother’s house at 1:00 A.M. The next morning he left his mother’s house with Melinda, who had come there to pick him up. Together they boarded a flight to Minneapolis at 8:36 A.M. local time. That was forty-four minutes after Patsy called 911 to report that JonBenét was missing.
Could John Andrew, with one or more of the friends who provided his and his sister’s alibis, have left Marietta, Georgia, flown to Boulder, Colorado, and returned in time to be seen by his sister’s boyfriend, Stewart Long, at about 6:15 A.M. when John Andrew and Melinda left for the airport?
The police figured that John Andrew had a minimum of four and a half hours he could not account for—longer if he didn’t stay to see the entire movie. It would have been longer still if he never went to the theater but went to an airport instead. That scenario would give John Andrew almost nine hours to get from Marietta to Boulder and back. Until all airline and private plane flights were checked, John Andrew Ramsey would remain a suspect.

and

For seven weeks the police had been interviewing the Ramseys’ family, friends, and business associates without turning up any real suspects. They had finished their background checks on John Andrew and Melinda and had verified commercial airline schedules and private plane flight plans and found no record that either of them had traveled the night of December 25. Their alibis were solid. Besides the Ramseys, the only people apparently still under investigation were “Santa” Bill McReynolds and his wife, Janet; housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh; part-time reporter Chris Wolf; Bud Henderson, who owed $18,000 to Access Graphics; company executive Gary Merriman; and the Ramseys’ friends Fleet and Priscilla White.

and

Two and a half months after the Boulder police began investigating John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey, they received the final pieces of evidence that cleared Ramsey’s older children of any involvement in JonBenét’s murder. Bryan Morgan wrote to Detective Thomas on March 4 stating that John Andrew had made an ATM transaction at the QT Store on Roswell Road, in Marietta, Georgia, at 9:00 P.M. on December 25. His friend Brad Millard had been present. To support his claim, Morgan enclosed the ATM transaction slip. He also repeated that Melinda had awakened her brother in the early morning hours of December 26, in time for him to stop at a store and still make an 8:30 A.M. flight to Minneapolis. It was impossible for John Andrew to have flown from Atlanta to Boulder, whether by commercial or private aircraft, commit the murder, and return in time to be awakened by his sister in the presence of Brad Millard, who had stayed overnight in John Andrew’s room.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town"

That is the situation my new theory faces.  Can we ever prove that these alibis are false?  What proof do we have that Melinda really did wake JAR up that morning?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2019, 10:14:17 PM
This person sort of feels like I do.  What a hassle of a Christmas!
Poster noted:
"I'm so confused. They were leaving for Charlevoix on December 26 and then they were coming back to Colorado and then off to Florida? And John doesn't even remember how many days they were supposed to stay in Charlevoix? I don't even understand why they would even go to Charlevoix. It had to be like 5 degrees there and it was after Christmas. It just sounds so tiring. You have a plane ride to Charlevoix (switching planes in Minneapolis, right?), just spending a couple days there, and then a plane ride back to Colorado. Then, another plane ride all the way down to Orlando. And then a bus ride and then a cruise?"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 01:32:45 AM
The question was asked:  "Now did Lacy just clear John, Patsy and Burke and left the rest of the family in the cold cause so far I can't find one where she cleared John Andrew or Melinda?"

That is a good question for I have wondered that myself.

Several others offered an answer:

"The kids were cleared on March 7, 1997.

"Suspect List Gets Shorter In Girl's Death In Colorado
By JAMES BROOKE
Published: March 9, 1997
New York Times
BOULDER, Colo., March 7— In the 10 weeks since JonBenet Ramsey was killed, Boulder police detectives have focused heavily on the family of the 6-year-old beauty princess. Now that the police have formally dropped her half-brother and half-sister from the suspect list, the investigative spotlight may burn hotter on her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey.
There are no declared suspects in the case, Kelvin McNeill, a city spokesman, stressed on Thursday when he announced that John Andrew Ramsey, 20, and Melinda Ramsey, 25, the children of John Ramsey and his former wife, Lucinda Johnson, had been eliminated as suspects.
The family had publicly appealed to the police to clear John Andrew and Melinda. On Christmas night, the night of the killing, John Andrew and Melinda were believed to have been staying at their mother's house in Atlanta. But the police said their work was slowed when John Ramsey hired a lawyer in Georgia who instructed the son, daughter and first wife not to cooperate with the police."

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/09/u....html?scp=1&sq=John+Andrew+and+Melinda&st=nyt "

That is where it stood.

That is the situation my new theory faces.  Can we ever prove that these alibis are false?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 09:23:55 AM
When you look into it, John Ramsey found Jonbenet dead at 11:00 AM. He tells this to Stewart and JAR when they arrive in Boulder.
John Ramsey says he found her "late morning" in the CNN interview.

Therefore for 2 hours he knew JB was deceased before he pretended to find her at 1:00 PM. When we understand why he did that we will crack the case.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
OK just read through the information on the web page http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm

What do you think?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 05:06:51 PM
Over 100 thread views in a 24 hour period!   OK it is a lot of work to keep presenting new and interesting posts.
Not only interesting but also with the underlying theme that there might be a problem with Melinda's alibi.

If I just took what I read as the truth I wouldn't question her alibi, in fact I read that her alibi was tighter than John Andrew's, but there was no  proof given to that effect.  I'm looking for that evidence to justify the majority saying Melinda was in Atlanta.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:06:29 PM
OK just read through the information on the web page http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm

What do you think?
Bryan Morgan wrote to Detective Thomas on March 4 stating that John Andrew had made an ATM transaction at the QT Store on Roswell Road, in Marietta, Georgia, at 9:00 P.M. on December 25. His friend Brad Millard had been present. To support his claim, Morgan enclosed the ATM transaction slip. He also repeated that Melinda had awakened her brother in the early morning hours of December 26, in time for him to stop at a store and still make an 8:30 A.M. flight to Minneapolis. It was impossible for John Andrew to have flown from Atlanta to Boulder, whether by commercial or private aircraft, commit the murder, and return in time to be awakened by his sister in the presence of Brad Millard, who had stayed overnight in John Andrew's room."


That bolded bit makes it sound like JAR flew on a separate flight to the one taken by Melinda.  Did they all travel together or not?

Should it not have said He also repeated that Melinda had awakened her brother in the early morning hours of December 26, in time for them to stop at a store and still make an 8:30 A.M. flight to Minneapolis.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:10:13 PM
Over 100 thread views in a 24 hour period!   OK it is a lot of work to keep presenting new and interesting posts.
Not only interesting but also with the underlying theme that there might be a problem with Melinda's alibi.

If I just took what I read as the truth I wouldn't question her alibi, in fact I read that her alibi was tighter than John Andrew's, but there was no  proof given to that effect.  I'm looking for that evidence to justify the majority saying Melinda was in Atlanta.

From http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm:

"By now the police had received the test results from John Andrew and Melinda's hair, blood, and handwriting. At the time, the only possible match to evidence found at the crime scene was the pubic hair found on the white blanket in the basement, which held some slight similarities to Melinda's. But her alibi was even tighter than her brother's, and it was not likely that she had used the same blanket when she stayed with the family. The next day the police informed the DA's office that they would make a public statement regarding Ramsey's older children within the week."


"Tight alibi" but a pubic hair on the white blanket!  That seems a bit contradictory.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:16:09 PM
Bryan Morgan wrote to Detective Thomas on March 4 stating that John Andrew had made an ATM transaction at the QT Store on Roswell Road, in Marietta, Georgia, at 9:00 P.M. on December 25. His friend Brad Millard had been present. To support his claim, Morgan enclosed the ATM transaction slip. He also repeated that Melinda had awakened her brother in the early morning hours of December 26, in time for him to stop at a store and still make an 8:30 A.M. flight to Minneapolis. It was impossible for John Andrew to have flown from Atlanta to Boulder, whether by commercial or private aircraft, commit the murder, and return in time to be awakened by his sister in the presence of Brad Millard, who had stayed overnight in John Andrew's room."


That bolded bit makes it sound like JAR flew on a separate flight to the one taken by Melinda.  Did they all travel together or not?
In the following email excerpt John Andrew (JAR) seems to imply they were together, but doesn't actually specify it either.

""JAR remembers..."
Posted by jameson on Jul-19-01 at 02:03 PM (EST)

Quotes from an email from John Andrew - - posted with expressed permission.

M=Melinda, S=Stewart, J=John, P=Patsy

The topic being discussed was John telling Stewart that he found the body at 11.

"After M, S and I arrived in Denver we proceded to the house. As soon as we arrived J and P were in the street, they had just found JB. It was a bad scene. Very quickly S and I got in John Fernies van with my dad. Melinda went with Patsy in I think Fleets car. NO ONE WAS THINKING. We just got in the nearest car and drove. NO THOUGHTS. That is when my dad told us he found JB and she was dead. NO THOUGHTS. We prayed and drove to the Fernies. I would imagine that is when Stewart got his information, I was probably sitting right there but I don't remember."
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htmhttp://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm


In the bit of the email from JAR that we can read, JAR does not deny that John Ramsey found Jonbenet at 11:00 AM.  So for 2 hour or more he knew about the deceased child and did nothing.

If we can only work out why he behaved like that.  If he had done the crime himself would he admit to finding the body at 11:00 AM?  I don't think so.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 06:56:26 PM
If John touched the body at 11:00 AM he ended up having to carry Jonbenet up out of the basement so as to deliberately contaminate the body at 1:00 PM.
 
Surely he tried to untie her when he first found her at 11:00 AM.

Surely he took the tape off her mouth when he first found her at 11:00 AM.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 07:40:43 PM
interesting analysis from http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-fat-cat.htm:

"But Thomas McAninch did what any good criminologist would: he carefully committed as many details as possible to his memory.

(SNIP)

He said it was apparent from the beginning of the letter that a crime was being staged to look like something it was not.

“The author says they represent a ‘small foreign faction,’ but no self-respecting terrorist would consider themselves less that representative of the masses,” he said. “It also says ‘we respect your business,’ but would a foreign faction respect your business? You just don’t find this kind of thing in kidnapping notes,” he said.

Furthermore, he believes a sentence that states, “speaking to anyone about your situation will result in your daughter being beheaded,” also is an example of the author trying to speak as they believe a terrorist would.

And terms written in the letter like “fat cat” are idioms that would not be taught to a foreign person learning the language. For those reasons, he said it was easy to eliminate a person from the Middle East as the author of the ransom note.

“A profile does not predict the individual, it predicts the type of person, and more specifically, it eliminates people,” he explained."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 29, 2019, 09:49:04 PM
From http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm:
"04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 18-19:

(Referencing Sergeant Reichenbach) "He called for more officers, crime scene techicians to search for evidence, and victim advocates to comfort and help the Ramseys, alerted the phone company to put a trap on the Ramsey telephone; and notified the on-call detective supervisor, Sergeant Bob Whitson. Further radio traffic was ordered to cease to prevent the kidnappers from picking up police broadcasts with a scanner. Communication would be by phone, and therefore less effective."

"The sergeant found no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house, then went outside. A light dusting of snow and frost lay atop an earlier crusty snow in spotty patches on the grass. He saw no fresh show impressions, found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in, but walking on the driveway and sidewalks left no visible prints. It was frigid, about nine degrees, and Reichenbach returned inside."

"He went down into the sprawling basement and walked through it. At the far end was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing.""

What is intriguing me is what could provide that resistance.    There was a ball of wire found in the wine cellar.
Was this wire used to hold the door shut from within the wine cellar?



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 01:11:24 AM
Look at this even Steve Thomas conceded there was a possibility  of another person in the house!
From http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm

"stevethomas: "I heard the 911 tape. repeatedly, as did the other detectives. the consensus was unanimous, as supported by the enhancement -- there is a 3rd voice on the tape, appears to be Burke (unless there was someone else present who has never been identified...)""

In my opinion if another person was listening in on the basement phone this could happen. This could happen on the old fashioned landline system.  Not so easy to listen into cellphones I'd imagine.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 06:56:09 AM
OK if there was anything that would rub the two older children up the wrong way IMO would be missing out on the Big Red Boat cruise.
Now it looks like it was at least a 4 day cruise.   No indication as yet that Melinda and John Andrew were invited on the trip.

From http://www.acandyrose.com/s-birthday-patsy-1996.htm

"1996-12-00: JOHN AND PATSY RAMSEY 1996 CHRISTMAS NEWSLETTER

Dear Friends & Family,

(SNIP)

"We are all enjoying continued good health and look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! We'll be spending my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year!"

(SNIP)

Merry Christmas and much love,
The Ramseys"

A little later there is this interview with detectives "didn't remember it either, but it's easy to figure
5 out, because we lot purchased the tickets through
6 our travel agent and so forth.
7 BRYAN MORGAN: I may be able to shorten
8 that because I know that I have seen the
9 reservations. So I would be glad to send you
10 copies."

So the LE had copies of the reservations.  But no mention of numbers at this stage.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 11:33:48 AM
John Ramsey for 2 hours does not alert the police to the presence of Jonbenet's body in the wine cellar.

It is for this reason the sealed Grand Jury indictment makes perfect sense:  "The grand jury also had alleged that each parent "did ... render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death.""  Quote from https://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/25/justice/jonbenet-ramsey-documents/index.html

Even if his initial suspicions were wrong, he hindered the investigation. 

I don't have a case against Patsy as such, as yet.  So that makes me question the "each parent" bit of this item.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:56 PM
A most difficult case really.

Was it a cover-up or is the situation real?  Was the kidnapper going to ring the Ramsey's before 10:00 AM or not?

IMO the ransom note said don't call the police, but they did, so they shouldn't really expect a call from the kidnapper.

How would the kidnapper know the police have been called?  In my theory they were in the house and listened to the 911 call, and at that point JB was hit on the head.  So from 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM JB could well have been alive, with at least one of the perpetrators remaining behind in the wine cellar.


If the room was latched from the outside could the person on the inside unlatch that door to escape?  That is a tricky question.
In my theory anyone entering that room would find someone in there.


Burke had been taken to another location (John and Barbara Fernie?) so it wasn't him.  Who was it then?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2019, 06:00:06 PM
Gosh - doing something right, hundreds of visitors to the site and 34 guests reading my new theory thread at the moment.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2019, 06:23:45 PM
OK would it really be possible for someone to leave the Ramsey house around 10:00 AM and not be noticed?
That is part of my theory isn't it, that someone stayed with Jonbenet in the wine cellar up to the time Fleet White possibly left the door unlatched.
I can't really prove he saw the person there when he says he didn't but it is possible on the way out he just closed the door and didn't latch it.

The person inside can't unlatch the door from the inside or can they.  Did we ever get a close-up of the latch from the inside and outside?
So most likely they needed someone to unlatch the door.
A good diversion would be to ring John's cell phone and not say anything.  Everyone's attention would be on to John.

He could take the call in the den and everyone's eyes would be on him and what is about to be said but there is nothing.

There was mention of a "blank call that morning".  I may not have mentioned it before as I hadn't realised its significance.  OK to be connected the call needed to have been after Fleet White's exploration of the basement.

And top this off John Ramsey's cell phone records for December went missing.   That is extraordinary don't you think!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 31, 2019, 06:50:43 PM
OK would it really be possible for someone to leave the Ramsey house around 10:00 AM and not be noticed?
That is part of my theory isn't it, that someone stayed with Jonbenet in the wine cellar up to the time Fleet White possibly left the door unlatched.
I can't really prove he saw the person there when he says he didn't but it is possible on the way out he just closed the door and didn't latch it.

The person inside can't unlatch the door from the inside or can they.  Did we ever get a close-up of the latch from the inside and outside?
So most likely they needed someone to unlatch the door.
A good diversion would be to ring John's cell phone and not say anything.  Everyone's attention would be on to John.

He could take the call in the den and everyone's eyes would be on him and what is about to be said but there is nothing.

There was mention of a "blank call that morning".  I may not have mentioned it before as I hadn't realised its significance.  OK to be connected the call needed to have been after Fleet White's exploration of the basement.

And top this off John Ramsey's cell phone records for December went missing.   That is extraordinary don't you think!

I did make mention of this blank call.  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg516462#msg516462


"Can anyone confirm the following statement is true or false please?
"The killer said he would call the home and give instructions, John said that there was a call that came in around 10:00 am and the caller did not say any thing. Was this the killer making the call?"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6010.msg219462#msg219462

Was there really a silent call at 10:00 AM. If there was wouldn't the FBI know who made the call?
[I have a feeling the phone taps had not been setup at 10:00 AM that morning.]"

It all depends on what phone was being called, was it a cellphone or was it the home landline.

But you can imagine the effect that a call at 10:00 AM would make. 

10:00 AM at Boulder is 11:00 AM in Minneapolis and the kids would have caught another flight by then.
So I suggest the call wasn't made by them at Minneapolis.  Were cellphone calls allowed to be made while a plane is in flight at that time?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2019, 06:23:34 PM
Can the following statement be verified in any way?  "The killer said he would call the home and give instructions, John said that there was a call that came in around 10:00 am and the caller did not say any thing. Was this the killer making the call?

23 years have passed and John as spoken to plenty of people in the intervening years.  I did read there were phone calls made to the Ramsey's house but none appeared to be from the kidnappers.
But you can imagine the anticipation that went on each time the phone rang.  Everyone quiet listening in to the phone call conversation.

Could a distraction like that give a person in the basement enough time to escape out through the butler's door?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2019, 06:37:53 PM
When was the butler's door found open?
Who found the door open?

If this door wasn't open when the LE first search the house but is found open later  does that imply John Ramsey also agrees with the theory that the killer remained hidden in the house after the police were called?
Crime scene photo showing open butlers door.  No time stamp visible on the photo. http://www.acandyrose.com/070butlerdoor.jpg
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2019, 07:09:24 PM
This is significant:

"An Intruder? The Intruder/s may have left the home from the Butler Kitchen. There were two sets of stairs going down to the basement, one from the butler kitchen and one from the front hall. The two sets joined into one hallway. In this video made by Lou Smit starting at 12:12 through 14:01 you can see how they could get from the basement to the Butler kitchen without being seen. At 17:00 he video's the door to the basement and stairs. Also note the Butler Kitchen cannot be seen from the Kitchen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8YkikAoSk If an intruder, it would make sense why the Butler Door was left open. They didn’t want to close it possibly alerting the Ramseys of their departure."

I have not checked the video as yet. https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk  Link works.
Video taken by Lou Smit. and Paula Woodward
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 01, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
This site has a summary of reports about the Butlers door https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/

If anyone raises my suspicion it is Mr Fernie's statements.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 02, 2019, 06:15:56 AM
This site has a summary of reports about the Butlers door https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/

If anyone raises my suspicion it is Mr Fernie's statements.
"Butler Pantry Door
Location. The butler pantry door was on the north side of the house, entering a foyer adjacent to the kitchen. Crime Scene Photo 84. Crime Scene Photo 70.
Evidence Door Found Open. "the butler's door to the kitchen was found ajar that morning. (SMF P 137; PSMF P 137.) Defendants note that the butler's door was only a short distance away from the spiral staircase where the Ransom Note was found and within plain view of where the pad of paper used for the Ransom Note was found. (SMF P 138; PSMF P 138.)" (Carnes 2003:89-90). Rocky Mountain News reported: "a police report noted that a Ramsey friend who arrived at the home shortly after 6 a.m., one of the first people there, said a door on the first floor -- called the butler door -- was ajar." The Ramsey friend likely was John Fernie.
Evidence Door Not Open. Internet poster Tricia has summarized the reasons the butler door may not have been open during the night.
Door Could Have Been Jimmied. Internet poster Jameson  (see post #22) claims that Frank Coffman broke into the Ramsey house after the murder by jimmying the lock on the butler door; her assessment is that if he could do this, anyone could."
From JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682499/Potential%20Points%20of%20Entry


Did the Ramseys put the ransom note on the floor by the Butlers pantry door in a position that Mr Fernie could read it through the glass from the outside?   I may have the impression wrong for I can't imagine Jon Ramsey putting the ransom note on the floor near an open door.  Which was first the note being placed on the floor or the Butler pantry door being opened?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 02, 2019, 07:23:39 AM
5:52 911 call by Patsy - how long did that call last 3 minutes? (one YouTube covering the call was 1:40 Minutes long.  Must find out and then Patsy rang the Fernies and the Whites.   
John Fernie says he was there by 6:02 AM - so was he up and dressed then, for he was around at the Ramsey's in about than 5-6 minutes?

The timeline for John Fernie's actions certainly has been questioned before. 
J
There was a separate trial where John Fernie had to describe his timeline.  "Transcript Testimony of John Fernie
Colorado vs Thomas C. Miller trial
June 13, 2001" http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm

At the bottom of this page are some links to actual court transcripts.
What I noticed is that no times (when the calls were made) and none of the names of the people involved (e.g. who made the calls, who invited him in) get mentioned.   

As far as fitting that timeline into my new theory goes it would not be impossible, but it initially seems it would require the writer of the ransom note to ring John Fernie before Patsy does.
Can this fit into the theory?  John Fernie (JF) has been to the house and seen the ransom note before it is left on the stairs for Patsy to read.



Time descriptions "in the early morning hours"

He went around to the patio door, which was a glass door leading into the kitchen, and at the back of the house.  (We need get get a floor plan to see what door he describes as the "patio door".)


[I'll amend this post as I build up the actual picture.]

My thoughts:
Who could have known about the ransom note before Patsy says she found it on the lower rungs of the stairs?  The perpetrators obviously and possibly John Ramsey for he says he was already up having a shower.
Once a person thinks that John Fernie was rung before the Ramseys (JR and PR) are aware of the note, to ring John Ramsey's best friend for some reason shows me that the perpetrators are very aware of the Ramsey family situation.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 02, 2019, 09:17:16 PM
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:s9qtpk4gIykJ:web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/bios/witnesses/fernies.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

At the time of the article:

"John Fernie
Age: 53
Barbara Fernie
Age: 46


Along with the Whites and the Rev. Rol Hoverstock, John and Barbara Fernie were called to the Ramseys' 15th Street home early Dec. 26, 1996, to console their grief-stricken friends.

That afternoon, when Detective Linda Arndt asked John Ramsey to search his home again, John Fernie went upstairs as JonBenét's father and Fleet White headed for the basement .

It was a fateful choice for Fernie; Ramsey and White found JonBenét's body just moments later.

While the Whites have seemingly turned on the Ramseys, the Fernies have kept a much lower profile. They don't talk to reporters and are believed to still be supportive of John and Patsy Ramsey."


Why would Fernie go anywhere on his own in someone else's home?

Other reports say John Fernie went with john Ramsey and Fleet White to the basement.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 02, 2019, 09:19:24 PM
John Fernie mentioned 17 times on this page http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682461/December%2026%20Before%20Noon
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 03, 2019, 02:06:48 AM
What I find is there are a lot of presumptions are being made.

Patsy could have rang the Whites and the Fernies but who did she talk to?   There was nothing stopping the perpetrators ringing the Fernies before Patsy did, especially if the perpetrators know that John Fernie is John Ramsey's best friend.

Here is another presumption being made by a LE officer covered on https://www.disboards.com/threads/jonbenet-ramsey-a-question-for-those-who-follow-this-story.3192257/page-4, it says:

"Thomas provides a very similar account: "In the basement he also came to the white door at the far end of the that was closed and secured at the top by the wooden block on a screw. French was looking for exit points from the house and the door obviously was not one. No one could have gone through that door, closed it behind them, and locked it on the opposite side by turning the wooden latch, so he did not open it." (Thomas 2000:22-23).

The officer should have only made a conclusion like  if he had made a detailed study of the wooden block.  How could he be certain there was no way the block could not turned from within the room?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 03, 2019, 04:28:24 AM
It is horrible when large chunks of doubt hit you. 

But I promise those that read the entire thread and go to the links provided, I will do my best to validate every point I make.  That means a lot of work is required on my part.

Thank you all for reading the thread.
It is horrible when large chunks of despair hits you.  (Studying the in and outs of John Fernie nearly made me give up again.)
But I promise those that read the entire thread and go to the links provided, I will do my best to validate every point I make.  That means a lot of work is required on my part.

Thank you all for reading the thread.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 03, 2019, 07:39:28 AM
I'm struggling with the John Fernie timeline, struggling to understand which glass door he read the ransom note through, struggling to understand who would put the ransom note down on the floor in front of a door, struggling to understand when the butler kitchen door was found open.
Those 4 issues are somewhat connected IMO and if my theory is correct they all have to be compatible with the theory. 

Patsy says she rang the Whites and the Fernies.   So do we know who answered the call in each case?  Who rang the minister?

"7:13 AM | Rev. Hoverstock Arrived. Reverend Rol Hoverstock arrived at the residence (Steve Thomas notes). Rev. Hoverstock from St. John's Episcopalian Church arrives at Ramsey house just before Burke left to go to White's house (Schiller 1999a:45); the search warrant affidavit states the pastor arrived "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1). However, acandyrose.com gives Hoverstock's arrival time as 7:00 AM without providing documentation/source." http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682461/December%2026%20Before%20Noon

"and later by the Ramseys' minister, Father Rol Hoverstock"

Why would there be a dispute as to when the 911 call was made?  "5:52 AM Patsy Ramsey Made 911 Call. John told Patsy to call police; 911 call logged at 5:52 AM (Schiller 1999a:78). The Daily Camera places this call at 5:45 AM, as does Bardach (1997)." https://www.disboards.com/threads/jonbenet-ramsey-a-question-for-those-who-follow-this-story.3192257/page-4
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 03, 2019, 08:36:22 AM
Vanity Fair Article,
Who Killed JonBenet?
September 16, 1997
by Ann Louise Bardach

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htm

"John Ramsey's children from his first marriage, Melinda, 25, and John Andrew, 21, along with Melinda's boyfriend, Stewart Long, arrived at the Ramsey house at 7:55 P.M. on December 26. Ramsey ran to the curb to meet them. Long ,a med-school graduate, told police that Ramsey had said that JonBenet had gone to heaven," and that he had found her body at 11:00 A.M., although, according to police reports, he found the body at 1 in the afternoon. The following day, investigators videotaped an interview with John Andrew, at the conclusion of which they asked him what he thought an appropriate punishment would be for the person that committed this crime. After a long pause he said, "Forgiveness." Incredulous, the detectives went into the brutality of his half-sister's murder and asked him to reconsider his answer. Another silence ensued, then he said again, "Forgiveness." (John Andrew Ramsey and Long declined to comment)"

7:55 PM seems rather late!

"Forgiveness." (John Andrew Ramsey and Long declined to comment)"  I wonder what Melinda would consider an appropriate punishment?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 03, 2019, 10:27:19 AM
Links to the floor plans http://www.wehaveyourdaughter.net/evidence-1

I can't see two stairways out of the basement.  (only 1 staircase but it might split at the landing.)
Yet the butler pantry appears to have two sets of stairs one going to the first floor and the other does it go down to the basement?

Looking at Google images of the Butler pantry both stair cases are up.  One goes up to the first floor but the other end it may go up to a toilet and wash room that is on the plans but doesn't show any access that I can see on the plans. There is a gap in the wall on the basement plan.

In the video done by Lou Smit he takes this short cut on video.

As I say later (copied from below): "The two sets joined into one hallway. In this video made by Lou Smit starting at 12:12 through 14:01 you can see how they could get from the basement to the Butler kitchen without being seen. At 17:00 he video's the door to the basement and stairs. Also note the Butler Kitchen cannot be seen from the Kitchen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8YkikAoSk If an intruder, it would make sense why the Butler Door was left open. They didn’t want to close it possibly alerting the Ramseys of their departure."


It is possible for someone to leave the basement at anytime that morning "as they could get from the basement to the Butler kitchen without being seen".

https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk?t=752  follow video from here."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 03:12:46 AM
[Many posts have been amended, therefore to get a full understanding of the theory try reading from the beginning again sometime.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 07:29:51 AM
From https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/

"People who observed the Open Butler Door;

When Fernie (JF) arrived after 6:00 AM he said the Butler door was ajar approximately 12 inches."

That confuses me ATM as others have made the claim that the door he (JF) read the ransom note through was the butler kitchen door.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 07:34:48 AM
From https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/
"Scott Gibbons a next door neighbor reported some strange goings on at around midnight in the Butler Kitchen;

PMPT Page 76sb "At about midnight, Scott Gibbons, a neighbor, looked out his kitchen window toward the Ramseys' house and saw a light on in the kitchen area.

ST Page 41 A neighbor to the north would say that the butler kitchen lights were on around midnight and considered that unusual since it was the first time he had noticed that light being on in the Ramsey home.

Scott Gibbons also told Officers that around 8:00AM he noticed the Butler Door open/ajar."

I have no reason to refute these observations of the neighbour Scott Gibbons.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 07:45:32 AM
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg  (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

If the patio door Fernie looked through is the one alongside "John's study"   it is the one in this crime scene photo. 

Why would anyone describe that door as the "patio door"?

(http://www.acandyrose.com/093PatioSouthSide.jpg)
http://www.acandyrose.com/093PatioSouthSide.jpg
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 10:04:00 AM
The bulter pantry area has two stairs leading into it.  If you come in from the outside and turn to the right you take the stairs that lead to the hall of the first floor (main floor).  If you take the stairs to the left you go into a wash room attached to a lavatory.  That washroom area is also accessible from the staircase leading to the basement.  It is therefore possible to go  from the basement  to the Butler Pantry without going through any rooms on the main floor.

Main floor floor plan (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

Basement floor plan
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa319915d5db5672f46fe4/1470771610795/TS-2+C2.jpg)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 10:17:10 AM
Finally I might be able to make sense of the video taken by Lou Smit mentioned here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/
"Who Opened the Butler Door?

Mark Beckner’s explanation for the Butler Door being open was because Forensics had opened it. The problem with this is they hadn’t arrived at 6:00 in the morning. I don’t think they arrived until later that morning or afternoon. We do know the door was open at 6-ish in the morning and still open at 8:00AM according to the neighbor.

Kids? To be fair in his 1998 interview with Lou he stated that occasionally he had found the door open. There wasn’t anything wrong with the door but when kids were over they would leave doors open and unlocked. Kids going in and out to play, if you have kids you can understand how this could happen. On the 25th there were kids at the house and it is plausible they went out the Butler Door that morning. It is also plausible the door was left open unbeknown to the Ramseys and the Ramseys didn’t check the doors before they left for the Whites as far as I know. However Mr. Gibbons who noticed odd lights in the Butler Kitchen at around midnight did not notice the door open until the morning of the 26th. Here is an image from his house view to the Ramseys.

If kids were responsible and the door was left ajar, it made for an easy access for an Intruder to enter the Ramsey home.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jamesons-photo-JCn3RS.jpg

John? If John checked the doors on the first floor as he said he did, he either did not check the Butler Kitchen or the Butler Door was closed. If it had been opened I believe John would have stated so. This would be evidence of how an Intruder could have entered into the home. If John had opened it to make it look like an Intruder entered via the Butler Door he would definitely tell the Responding Officers. According to John he wasn’t aware of any unlocked doors and windows until his 1998 Interview. He was taken aback by that fact the Butler Door was not only unlocked but open.

DOI (HB) Page 270 John Wrote:

"The investigators spent a great deal of time talking with me about a large diagram of the house on the wall behind me. I later learned that they also used the same diagram with Patsy. I was shocked to see that they had found the butler kitchen door, which led to the outside, open. This was reported by one of our friends when he arrived shortly after six in the morning. I'd never even noticed that open door as we frantically rushed around making phone calls, and yet there on the police diagram of our home was the note: "Door found open."

An Intruder? The Intruder/s may have left the home from the Butler Kitchen. There were two sets of stairs going down to the basement, one from the butler kitchen and one from the front hall. The two sets joined into one hallway. In this video made by Lou Smit starting at 12:12 through 14:01 you can see how they could get from the basement to the Butler kitchen without being seen. At 17:00 he video's the door to the basement and stairs. Also note the Butler Kitchen cannot be seen from the Kitchen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8YkikAoSk If an intruder, it would make sense why the Butler Door was left open. They didn’t want to close it possibly alerting the Ramseys of their departure."


It is possible for someone to leave the basement at anytime that morning "as they could get from the basement to the Butler kitchen without being seen".

https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk?t=752  follow video from here.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 10:36:27 AM
This last bit sounds more like fabrication to me.   https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/

"Adding to this post to for some additional corrections; In a report Fernie said he went around the south side of the house, he wouldn't have seen the Butler Door if he went this route. However Fernie did find the Butler Door open. Thanks to u/mrwonderof he shared this in his book.

"At one point that morning, the time uncertain, but as police were processing the scene, Fernie reported that a draft was coming through the house, and he located the source: the door on the north side of the house by the Butler Pantry was standing open, and he shut it." from "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?" by A. James Kolar

In Paula Woodwards book:

When John’s friend arrived(John Fernie) at the Ramsey home at 6:01 am he found the butler kitchen door standing open about one foot while it was dark outside and before the evidence team or Det. Arndt arrived. (BPD Report #1-149, BPD Report #1-1315) The time noted was 6 am so it was one of the first things the friend noticed.

So the evidence team had not arrived yet. Kolar gives additional information Fernie noticed it because he felt a draft. Yet the door was still open at 8:00, it could be the evidence team opened it for pictures, re-enacting how Fernie found the door."


The patio door Fernie is supposed to come to first is on the opposite side of this enormous house.  Why does he go to the Butler Pantry door at 6:00 AM.  Total BS IMO.    He can't be rung after 5:55 AM , get dressed, go to the Ramsey's, park car, walk to the patio door, read the note, and get around to the Butler Pantry  all before  6:00 AM!  No way.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 06:39:27 PM
In the court transcript of the case "Colorado vs Thomas C. Miller trial June 13, 2001" John Fernie is asked to give evidence.

The transcripts are found at http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm

The page starts off "John Fernie and his wife, Barbara were called by Patsy Ramsey the morning of December 26, 1996 shortly after Patsy called 911 to report JonBenet Ramsey had been kidnapped. "

Yet this is not what is said in the court, on page 4 of the transcript, Mr Fernie is asked the following question:
" ... did you have occasion to come to the Ramsey's house in the early morning hours, I believe Dec. 26th, at the behest of one of the members of the Ramsey family?
Answer "Yes"

So the time of the call is not stipulated and most importantly for the purposes of the new theory is that the member of the Ramsey family who made the call to John is not specified.
(http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernie-millertrial4.gif)
http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernie-millertrial4.gif

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 06:51:16 PM
Do you really think John or Patsy Ramsey took the ransom note from the spiral stair case and placed it on the floor close enough to the "patio door" so John Fernie was able to read it upside down through the glass door?

That is something that could easily be tested.  Do a reconstruction of that reading, see if it is possible to read the ransom note through that window.  I have my doubts.

Why does John Fernie's account not make logical sense, seem physically impossible and change depending when he tells the story?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 08:59:35 PM
This post on Websleuths sure asks the type of questions I'd like too ask as well.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/a-closer-look-at-john-fernie.13784/

"PMPT pb, pg 44:

"At 6:00 A.M. the telephone awakened Cliff Gaston. It was Patsy Ramsey. Priscilla took the call, and within minutes the White's were dressed and on their way to the Ramsey's house. When they arrived, the police and John Fernie were already there."

By car the Whites live 2 minutes away from the Ramseys.

By car the Fernies live 23 minutes away from the Ramseys.

Patsy had called 911 at 5:52 A.M. She then immediately called the Fernies and the Whites in that order.

John Fernie, a developer, lives at the Shanahan Ridge development on Table Mesa, below the foothills. How did John Fernie, after taking the call from Patsy, manage to get dressed, drive to the Ramsey house, and get there before Fleet White?

Was John Fernie already on the road when Patsy called him? Had he taken the call by cell phone? And if so, WHY was he on the road so early in the morning on the day after Christmas. Had he already been to the Ramsey house earlier that morning -- perhaps to retrieve Little Luke from the disaster unfolding at the Ramseys house and take him home, and was on his way back to the Ramsey's when the call from Patsy came in notifying him she had called the cops and it was okay for him to return? Or was he already on the road for some other reason?

(Those missing cell phone records for the month of December would have likely told one helluva interesting story.)"

The trouble as I see it no matter how many questions are asked and no matter how much doubt is cast on John Fernie's  testimony we still can't say categorically he is wrong.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 10:16:33 PM
https://m.facebook.com/jonbenetinvestigation/posts/1218923111483484/    worth looking at.  I can't copy and paste from that site.

This officer reports that John Fernie goes to the basement with Fleet and John.

He (Jim Byfield) wasn't there so all of this is from reports from another source.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 04, 2019, 10:45:40 PM
From https://shakedowntitle.com/2018/07/11/jonbenet-ramsey-key-individuals/

Mike Archuleta, John Ramsey’s pilot and friend
Pam Archuleta, [refers to herself as “Pam Barday” in Dateline documentary] Mike’s ex-wife and friend of Patsy"

Who was it that took the 911 call that morning?

https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/jonbenet-ramsey-911-operator-detective-finally-speak-out-w438955/
"The NBC special also featured the exclusive first TV appearance by Kimberly Archuleta, the original 911 operator from the morning of December 26, 1996. In an emotional interview, Archuleta admitted, “That has been the hardest call I ever took.” She continued, “I think that’s because there was something inside me that said, ‘Something’s not right.'” She continued to reveal that, even though Patsy attempted to end the call, the line was still going and she could hear “another voice.” The former 911 operator continued, “The third voice was a male voice. … I knew there was a third distinct voice.”
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 05, 2019, 12:12:42 AM
Did John Fernie  get the ransom money?

was it real money of fake money?

If it was real money did it come from John Ramsey's account or from elsewhere?

I've just read some strange stories where the police wouldn't let John Fernie bring real money into the house.

Here is a commonly held view:  "The ransom note suggested that the ransom collection would be monitored and JonBenét would be returned as soon as the money was obtained. John Ramsey made arrangements for the availability of the ransom, which a friend, John Fernie, picked up that morning from a local bank."

John Ramsey would have been in quite a dilema if he took the demand seriously.  Somehow he had to arrange the money and be available for a phone call all at the same time.

This is what the ransom note said about the money.  "You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a [sic] earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter." 

So he needed to go to the bank himself and withdraw the money, and come back and get instructions.  What time do banks open in the US?

From http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682449/Analysis%20of%20undrtheradar

"The following are direct quotes from the book "Death of Innocence"...

John is describing what he did to arrange getting the ransom note shortly after reading the ransom note;

"I call my banker friend Rod Westmoreland in Atlanta two arrange the ransom money and discover that he has left for his parents home in Tupelo, Mississippi. I get through to his assistant at Atlanta's Merrill Lynch office. I'm thankful that today is a work day. I quickly explain what has happened, and she says she'll get in touch with Rod right away"." The phone rings. Everyone freezes as I slowly pick up the receiver"."Hello, I answer tentatively. John, this is Rod. We've arranged for u to have a credit line of $118,000 dollars on your Visa card. You can go to a local bank and get the money as a cash advance". "John Fernie has been in contact with the president of a local bank, a personal friend of his, and is working to get the ransom money ready. John (Fernie not Ramsey) goes to the bank with my credit card to get the cash"."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 05, 2019, 12:46:01 AM
https://crimewatchers.net/forum/index.php?threads/jon-benet-ramsey-whats-your-theory-on-what-happened-to-her.2965/page-22
"Interesting stuff, re the footprints in the frost/snow:

From Lawrence Schiller's book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town:

"John Fernie was angry when he read Charlie Brennan's story about footprints. Like many media stories, this one came from an unnamed source and made the Ramseys look guilty. Fernie wondered if the source had provided the reporter with all the facts. He knew that his own footprints were there in the snow that morning. He had driven up the back alley to the Ramseys' house just after 6:00 A.M. in response to Patsys' frantic call that terrible morning. He remembered walking along the brick sidewalk to the patio door, looking through the glass panel, and reading a line or two of the ransom note, which was lying on the floor just inside the door. Then he ran through the snow-covered grass, around the south side of the house, to the front door. If the cops had been looking, they would have found his footprints. A year and half after JonBenet's death, Fernie told a reporter that the police still had not checked the shoes he wore that day, though a shoe imprint had been discovered next to JonBenet's body."

Fernie admits walking across the snow covered grass yet the saying was there were no footprints in the snow.

But someone else points out "He said he read the note while it was spread on the floor. I believe the police were there by then, as it was they who spread the note out and then returned it to the stairs ( where it was photographed). I can't remember what time the police said they looked for footprints, but it's worth checking up - Fernie says he arrived just after 6am."

Well that could be true if he came after the police had checked for footprints in the snow first thing.

But to make matters worse this is what the policew are said to have reported "What Police Reported
Sergeant Paul Reichenbach had arrived at 6:45 AM and searched the outside of the house. He reported no footprints were found in the crusty/frosty snow which covered "much of the grass"
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682515/The House#SnowontheGround" (Link works)

Did the money ever leave the bank"  I don't have much faith in this author but it is reported In http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html: "Investigators question why Ramsey seemed to stall over getting the ransom money if he truly believed that the note had been written by dangerous kidnappers. "The money never left the bank," says one insider dryly"


 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 05, 2019, 08:32:08 PM
https://htir.com/articles/business-hours.php
"* Banks usually are open Monday through Friday, but banking hours fluctuate depending on how large the bank. Some banks open to the public later than 8 a.m. or close earlier than 5 p.m. Larger banks might offer Saturday hours. If you need to visit the bank in person, check its hours online first." So is it possible for the bank to open at 8:00 AM.
So Fleet White and John Fernie muck around getting the kids including Burke around to someone who will look after them that day. I suppose that could take more than an hour so it woulds be after 8:00 AM so they went to the banks after that.
But did they pick up the money?
Why would Linda Arndt be wanting John Ramsey to tell the kidnappers that the money would not be ready to be picked up till 5:00 PM. The banks would be closed by then. Something about this story doesn't make sense.
The other thing Linda Arndt wanted JR do was to ask for was proof of life.

That request of "proof of life" would have elicited a nervous response if JR knew that JBR was already deceased surely!

So at that stage one would surmise that JR didn't know JBR was deceased at that time of getting those instructions from Linda Arndt.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 05, 2019, 09:05:46 PM
So far I don't believe John Fernie on the following accounts:

1. I don't believe Patsy Ramsey rang John Fernie on the landline. (I accept Patsy spoke to his wife)

2. I don't believe he got there at around 6:00 AM for the travel time was too short.  (I accept that he arrived after Fleet White and two LE officers)

3. I don't believe he read the ransom note through the patio door. (physically impossible IMO)

4. I don't believe he was let in via the front door at 6:00 AM.  (I do accept he was let in later.)

5.  I don't believe he found the butler pantry door open around 6:00 AM and later closed it.

6. I don't believe he took the ransom money out of his account.  (Did he really do that?)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 06, 2019, 12:39:45 AM
Lou Smit did a walk through of the house, so we might be able to see if the patio had patterned glass or plain glass in it.
Links to the floor plans http://www.wehaveyourdaughter.net/evidence-1

It appears that the patio door is not the door I previously identified.  The patio has double plane glass doors so if the note had been on the floor of the "dining room" it might be possible to read it.  Was the ransom note ever taken from the spiral staircase all the way around to the patio doors?
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 06, 2019, 06:53:21 AM
Lou Smit did a walk through of the house, so we might be able to see if the patio had patterned glass or plain glass in it.
Links to the floor plans http://www.wehaveyourdaughter.net/evidence-1

It appears that the patio door is not the door I previously identified.  The patio has double plane glass doors so if the note had been on the floor of the "dining room" it might be possible to read it.  Was it ever taken from the spiral staircase all the way around to the patio doors?
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

It is not obvious (to me at least) how Patsy would get from the spiral staircase across to the kitchen based on the floor plans online.

(Click on image to enlarge click again to return it to normal size)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 06, 2019, 07:41:06 AM
It is not obvious (to me at least) how Patsy would get from the spiral staircase across to the kitchen based on the floor plans online.
That drawing might be wrong. Try this...
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 06, 2019, 07:44:03 AM
More... https://www.denverpost.com/1999/09/21/jonbenet-ramsey-boulder-home-floor-plan/ (https://www.denverpost.com/1999/09/21/jonbenet-ramsey-boulder-home-floor-plan/)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 06, 2019, 07:51:58 AM
Thanks myster.  I was looking at the videos of the "Home Tour" but I must admit I got bored with those videos  and lost concentration. It makes sense to have a door there.  I wonder why it was missed on the architectural plans.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 06, 2019, 07:59:52 AM
Thanks myster.  I was looking at the videos of the "Home Tour" but I must admit I got bored with those videos  and lost concentration. It makes sense to have a door there.  I wonder why it was missed on the architectural plans.
If you enlarge your original Main Floor plan to its fullest extent you can probably pick out the Kitchen door opening into the Hall which the "architect" has drawn over in thick lines to make it appear as a solid wall.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 06, 2019, 07:33:08 PM
On the home tour this shot shows that door https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk?t=26.

It is a shame the camera operator didn't follow the path from the Butler Pantry up the eastern end stairs through a passageway to the basement.  It is sort of described but not taken.
https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk?t=729 is the start of the look at the Butler Pantry.

"Butler pantry on the north side of the house.   Take 4 or 5 steps (eastern end of butler pantry) leading into a hallway, which leads to the door of the basement area."

That route is completely out of sight to those in the rest of the house and therefore is a possible escape route for any intruder in the basement even once the police arrive.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2019, 01:39:12 AM
I'm about to read the online version of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town."
Longer title is "PERFECT MURDER, PERFECT TOWN : THE UNCENSORED STORY OF THE JONBENET MURDER AND THE GRAND JURY'S SEARCH FOR THE FINAL TRUTH"

https://epdf.pub/perfect-murder-perfect-town-the-uncensored-story-of-the-jonbenet-murder-and-the-.html

It starts off with the Ramsey's Christmas greetings:

"Dear Friends and Family, It’s been another busy year at the Ramsey household. Can’t believe it’s almost over and time to start again! Melinda has graduated from the Medical College of Georgia and is working in Pediatrics ICU at Kennestone Hospital in Atlanta. John Andrew (2nd) is a Sophomore at the University of Colorado. Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling. He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His little league team was #1. He’s lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I’m sure we’ll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997! JonBenét is enjoying her first year in “real school.” Kindergarten in the Core Knowledge program is fast paced and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead to first grade math. She continues to enjoy participating in talent and modeling pageants. She was named “America’s Royale Tiny Miss” last summer and is Colorado’s Little Miss Christmas. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering an oral book report! John is always on the go traveling hither and yon. Access recently celebrated its one-billion $$ mark in sales, so he’s pretty happy! He and his crew were underway in the Port Huron to Mackinac Island yacht race in July, but had to pull out midway due to lack of wind. (Can you believe that?) But, his real love is the new “old looking” boat, Grand Season, which he spent months designing. I spend most of my “free time” working in the school and doing volunteer work. The Charlevoix house was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of

the Better Homes and Garden publications in 1997. On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. Al Roker and Bryant actually talked to us and we were on camera for a few fleeting moments! We are all enjoying continued good health and look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note…thank you to all my “friends” and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I’ve ever had! We’ll be spending my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year! Merry Christmas and much love, The Ramseys"

Now in my new theory that Christmas message is the stimulus that generated the hatred toward John and Patsy Ramsey.
 So it the 1 billion dollar turnover for the year, money spent on boats and a luxury cruise for Patsy these are the points to me that might raise the hackles of those feeling like they are missing out.

Not 1 million but 1 billion  dollar turnover!

Was that letter sent as a typed message or a handwritten message?  Who would get this message?  Who was it sent to and who could read it thereafter.

" In the program, there was "A Christmas Message from the Ramsey Family." This message was also posted on the Ramsey family's web site."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2019, 01:53:24 AM
The use of the phrase ....and hence ... used by Patsy and the ransom note writer could be significant.  If someone was trying to set Patsy up copying phrases used by Patsy would be very useful.  http://www.statementanalysis.com/jonbenet-ramsey-murder/ransom-note/

I can see no reason the Ramsey's would show themselves up by using the $118,000 figure in the ransom note.

"The terms “watching over” and “and hence” are consistent with a religious mindset and they are known to be used in the Ramsey family Christmas message which Patsy wrote the year after JonBenet’s death."
http://dyingwords.net/tag/patsy-ramsey/

OK there was a Christmas message in 1997 as well. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2019, 02:13:48 AM
Found the 1997 Christmas message:
http://www.re-newsit.com/p/the-bonita-papers-are-unedited-notes-of.html

" On the one year anniversary of the death of JonBenet, the following Christmas message with distributed nationwide through the internet web site:

A Christmas Message from the Ramsey Family

With the Christmas season upon us and the anniversary
of JonBenet’s death approaching, we are filled with
many emotions. We, as a family, miss JonBenet's
presence among us as we see the lights, hear the music,
and recall celebrations of Christmases past. We miss
her every day not just today.

On the one hand, we feel like Christmas should be
canceled. Where is there joy? Our Christmas is
forever tainted with the tragedy of her death. And yet
the message rings clear. Had there been no birth of
Christ, there would be no hope of eternal life, and,
hence, no hope of ever being with our loved ones again.

As the day of the birth of our Lord and Savior
approaches, we thank all across the nation and around
the world for your continued prayers of concern and
support. It is those prayers that sustain us. We ask
that as you gather with your families and loved ones
this Christmas, be joyful in the celebration of the
birth of Christ, knowing that this is truly the reason, for the season. We must continue to celebrate the
birth of Christ . . . for our hope of life together
ever after.

Thank you for all you meant to her and mean to as.

With blessing and prayer for a Joyful Holiday
Grace of God's ever present love for the New Year,

John, Patsy, John Andrew, Melinda and Burke

It is signed by 5 persons so who actually wrote it?  If there are a couple of similar phrases  in both this and the ransom note why blame Patsy.

Can anyone help me with the following sentence "Thank you for all you meant to her and mean to as"?

It is likely to be a typo should be "us" rather than "as".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2019, 02:45:06 AM
Definition of some terms: 
A phone tap provides direct access to a conversation so that it can be recorded or monitored. A phone trap collects data from the telephone company, which includes the telephone number called or caller ID and the names that are listed in association with the number.

You could expect at times the wrong thing was done Tap or trap?  Very similar sounding words.

"The special agents were working with some police officers to set up phone taps and traps, which would give them immediate access to all incoming and outgoing calls at the Ramsey house." PMPT.

You'd wonder when these taps and traps became functional?

"Around noon, at police headquarters, Detective Jim Byfield received the first of several printouts listing the calls made to and from telephones the police had targeted. After the list was reviewed, additional phone traps were ordered. During the next seven days, the police would trap calling information from phones belonging to suspects, neighbors, family friends, doctors, business associates, corporate offices, and public officials. Even the telephones at United Airlines Red Carpet airport lounges and the mortuary that held JonBenét’s body were trapped. In all, there were traps on more than sixty-seven telephone numbers belonging to fifty-nine individuals, including Lt. Governor Gail Schoettler and her husband, Don Stevens, who knew John Ramsey from the days when they both attended Michigan State University. "
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2019, 11:28:52 AM
I had noted previously points about this aspect.  The following comes up in PMPT page 81 "After JonBenét’s body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn’t think the kidnapper meant to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket."

Think about that for a moment, what could the kidnapper have really wanted.

Was it just to be considered first?  John "we have your daughter" - did he ask himself which one?
Did the killer just want the money, the cops not to get involved, and no one else should get involved as well.

I see one of John's associates when told by John, that his daughter was kidnapped, he asked John, "which daughter?" Was this what the kidnapper was really on about?  What did they want, was it to be given some priority in their such wonderful lives?
I see evidence of this in the practice note, "Mr and Mrs Ramsey, we have your daughter" but that would only bring the attention back to JonBenet (as Jonbenet is the only daughter of Mr and Mrs Ramsey), so scrub that one.  It couldn't start like that, it had to be "Mr Ramsey, we have your daughter", and his response should have been, which one (as I have two daughters)?  He needed to have rung Melinda's cellphone, if she had one, or to ring Lucinda Johnson, the former Mrs Ramsey, to find out if Melinda was OK.

This still could get complicated for how would anyone in the basement know what John was doing and what he had done to satisfy the demands?  Maybe at the worst (for him) it was just to get the money ready and to wait as demanded by the ransom note.  All their plans would be messed up, their flights, and possibly their trips on the Big Red Boat cruise etc. well that was the end result any way.

Could John ever be told what to do?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 02:06:47 AM
Definition of more terms:
Thanksgiving
Description
Thanksgiving is a national holiday in the United States, celebrated on the fourth Thursday of November. It originated as a harvest festival. Thanksgiving has been celebrated nationally on and off since 1789, with a proclamation by George Washington after a request by Congress.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Someone else also found the Wine Cellar door hard to open, from PMPT page #81: "The police interviewed Linda Hoffmann-Pugh for a second time on Friday, December 27, and they came with a tape recorder. The Ramseys’ housekeeper told the police that the day after Thanksgiving, she, her daughter Ariana, and her husband were at the Ramseys’ house washing the windows and getting the house ready for Christmas. Hoffmann-Pugh brought the Christmas decorations in from the garage but couldn’t find the artificial trees that had been brought to the house from the Access Graphics storage hangar. There should have been a tree for the playroom and one for each of the five bedrooms. HoffmannPugh even checked the basement, but she couldn’t find them, so she continued cleaning the windows. After they had washed the windows, Hoffmann-Pugh and her daughter started searching the house for the missing trees. She saw a closed door in the basement just past the boiler room, which she had never noticed before. She tried to open the door, but it was stuck shut, apparently from a recent painting. She pulled at it hard and the door finally opened. Feeling around in the dark, she found a light switch on the wall to her right. The room was full of trees, some still covered with last year’s decorations, replicas of Burke’s model airplanes and John Andrew’s cowboy hats, boots, and red scarves. The next day the housekeeper had her older daughter, Tina, her son-in-law Mike, and her husband, Merv, take all the trees upstairs and place them in their proper rooms. The police asked Hoffmann-Pugh if she had closed the door to that storage room securely. She didn’t know. She couldn’t even tell the police what the room looked like empty because she wasn’t the last person to leave, she said. "
"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 05:51:12 PM
What I'm going to be looking out for is a list of the items also found in the Wine Cellar.  Above post Linda HP mentions some items belonging to John Andrew Ramsey (JAR).  I wonder if the suitcase was in there as well.  No one seems to remember where it came from or who owned it but it also had things in it of a personal (JAR) nature.

"John Andrew’s cowboy hats, boots, and red scarves."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 06:29:57 PM
Definition of some terms: 
A phone tap provides direct access to a conversation so that it can be recorded or monitored. A phone trap collects data from the telephone company, which includes the telephone number called or caller ID and the names that are listed in association with the number.

You could expect at times the wrong thing was done Tap or trap?  Very similar sounding words.

"The special agents were working with some police officers to set up phone taps and traps, which would give them immediate access to all incoming and outgoing calls at the Ramsey house." PMPT.

You'd wonder when these taps and traps became functional?

"Around noon, at police headquarters, Detective Jim Byfield received the first of several printouts listing the calls made to and from telephones the police had targeted. After the list was reviewed, additional phone traps were ordered. During the next seven days, the police would trap calling information from phones belonging to suspects, neighbors, family friends, doctors, business associates, corporate offices, and public officials. Even the telephones at United Airlines Red Carpet airport lounges and the mortuary that held JonBenét’s body were trapped. In all, there were traps on more than sixty-seven telephone numbers belonging to fifty-nine individuals, including Lt. Governor Gail Schoettler and her husband, Don Stevens, who knew John Ramsey from the days when they both attended Michigan State University. "
Not only are there Phone Taps, and Phone Traps but there are also "phone tapes".
PMPT "Two days later, Colin discovered that the Roswell police, unknown to Eller or Mason, routinely taped all incoming and outgoing phone calls.

That feels like an invasion of privacy to me.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 07:09:48 PM
A good question is being asked here.

"On Tuesday, January 7, two detectives went to the Ramseys’ hangar and interviewed Michael Archuleta, John Ramsey’s private pilot: Richard Bjelkovig, his copilot; and other personnel. The officers learned that the Ramseys had planned to leave for their Christmas vacation at 7:00 A.M. on December 26. Archuleta mentioned that they had expected to leave their home for the Jefferson County Airport at about 6:30. Archuleta said he woke at about 4:30 A.M. and left for the airport at around 6:00. About ten minutes after Patsy Ramsey called 911 and three minutes after Officer Rick French arrived at the Ramseys’ house, John tried to call Archuleta at the airport. Instead he reached copilot Bjelkovig. Ramsey told Bjelkovig that JonBenét had been kidnapped. Archuleta was still

136

en route to the airport. Bjelkovig reached Archuleta’s wife at home to tell her the news. By 6:05 the police, the Fernies, the Whites, and the Ramseys’ pilots all knew about the kidnapping, though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenét would die if Ramsey informed anyone. The police were puzzled about why John Ramsey was in such a hurry to tell his pilot that his daughter had been kidnapped. When Ramsey finally talked to Archuleta that morning, he instructed the pilot not to fly to Minneapolis. Instead, Archuleta was to notify the commercial airline on which Ramsey’s children were arriving from Atlanta and leave word for them to call their father. At 1:30 P.M., just twenty-five minutes after JonBenét’s body was found, John Ramsey called Archuleta again, at his home. “She’s gone,” Ramsey said. “They’ve killed her.” Then he told Archuleta to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta that evening. Fleet White then called Archuleta at 3:00 P.M. to say that the trip to Atlanta was canceled. Ramsey’s flight plans raised more questions for the police: Why had Ramsey called Archuleta so soon after JonBenét’s body was found, and why did he want to leave Boulder? Like so many other questions, these would remain unanswered until the Ramseys could be interviewed."  source PMPT
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2019, 07:58:05 PM
"I said nothing. I wanted to hear where they were going with all this. “We know you traveled with John Ramsey.” Of course I did. He was my boss. Why lie? I just closed the door. —Laurie Wagner"

Laurie had to give finger prints and palm prints.  The police told her there was an unidentified print on the ransom note.  True or false?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 09, 2019, 11:03:53 AM
Still working my way through Perfect Murder Perfect Town.   It is a long book as there is a lot of investigation, and politics involved as well.
Was it just lucky that the kidnappers found the wine cellar to leave the body in?
Was it just luck that they left the ransom note on the stairs Patsy and John come down?
Was it just luck the note was addressed to John Ramsey not Mr and Mrs Ramsey?

[Many posts in this thread have been amended as I get a better understanding of the case, therefore for you to get a full understanding of the "New theory" try reading the thread from the beginning again sometime.
It is what I do regularly checking that what I have written can be backed with at least one cite.]

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 09, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
Page#199 PMPT:
"EXPERT: KILLER KNEW JONBENÉT JonBenét Ramsey knew her killer, and the killer had ready access to the family home, a renowned criminologist told The Denver Post. Robert Ressler, who for 16 years was a profiler for the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit and the first manager of the FBI’s Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, told the Post that his study of the case— including a visit to Boulder this week—convinces him that the 6-year-old was not killed by a stranger. —Howard Pankratz The Denver Post, January 31, 1997 When the Star received a tip on February 5 that John Andrew Ramsey had tried to arrange the death of his halfsister, JonBenét, they passed the information to the Boulder police. A sometime police informant had told the tabloid that on the weekend of either Memorial Day or July Fourth 1996, while the Ramsey family was vacationing in Michigan, John Andrew had offered him $10,000 to ram a power boat into a smaller boat that would be carrying him and JonBenét. Supposedly, John Andrew would jump overboard to safety just before impact and JonBenét, he hoped, would be killed. The informant told the Star that he had rejected the offer. Detective Jane Harmer was assigned to follow up on the tip. The informant was interviewed by local police in Waterford, Michigan, where he repeated the story he’d told the tabloid. Two weeks later, the Boulder police discovered that the informant had a dubious history. A check of Michigan police agencies revealed that he had come under suspicion—first for possibly planting drugs in an alleged dope house and second for refusing to take a polygraph test to
confirm information he had provided in a cocaine investigation. By the end of February, Boulder police had decided that the informant’s accusations were unfounded, and yet another lead in the Ramsey case would go nowhere."

Repeating the story is rather a good start.  Strange that once again there is some signs of tension between the two lines of John Ramsey's family.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 09, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
"Meanwhile, the CBI reported to the police that a pubic hair had been discovered on the white blanket found around JonBenét’s body. When the hair was evaluated under a compound microscope, it showed a high degree of “buckling,” or twisting, and a greater degree of curl than chest or scalp hairs.* The hair might have gotten there in several ways: A member of the Ramsey family or a guest could have used the blanket previously, the hair could have come from inside the clothes dryer when the blanket was laundered— or it could have been left on the blanket during the commission of the crime. All the Ramseys were asked to provide pubic hair samples. On February 13, as reporters were preparing to cover a press conference given by Alex Hunter, Patsy slipped into Boulder Community Hospital to give Detectives Arndt and Harmer her pubic hair sample. A week later, John went to the same hospital and gave his sample. By the end of the month, the police had obtained samples from Melinda and John Andrew and from John Andrew’s friend Brad Millard.
Footnote: * Hair has thirty-five characteristics, some of which are pigmentation, medulla, scales on the outside of hair, and the channel that runs through the center of each strand.

I wonder if Stewart Long was considered to supply pubic hair samples?

P 224 PMPT
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 09, 2019, 07:07:41 PM
Alex Hunter DA Boulder County:
"Hunter then looked squarely into the TV cameras. “Finally, I want to say to you, through you, I want to say something to the person or persons who committed this crime, the person or persons who took this baby from us.” He paused a moment before continuing: “The list of suspects narrows. Soon there will be no one on the list but you. When that time comes—and as I have said to you, that time will come—Chief Koby and I and our people of the expert prosecution task force and the other resources that we bring together are going to bear down on you. You have stripped us of any mercy that we might have had in the beginning of this investigation. We will see that justice is served in this case. And that you pay for what you did. And we have no doubt that that will happen. “And I say to you that there will not be any failure in that regard. We will ensure that justice is served for this community, for this nation, and, most important, for JonBenét. Thank you.” "
From PMPT. p# 226
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 09, 2019, 11:01:22 PM
In April 1997, Ellis Armistead, an investigator hired by the Ramseys, would tell the police that there were twenty more extra keys outstanding. In the end, however, the detectives could find only nine people who said they had keys. Six of the keys were returned. Three were missing. The police soon learned that the front door locked automatically when it was closed. The police were told that Patsy, possibly without her husband’s knowledge, had hidden a key outdoors near the front door because whenever she went out front for something, she got locked out. Now that key was also missing.  PMPT page #234


Who better to know where a key is hidden other that the kids.
Did even John not know about the hidden key?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 10, 2019, 11:08:46 AM
PMPT page#257 ★ ★ ★

"For seven weeks the police had been interviewing the Ramseys’ family, friends, and business associates without turning up any real suspects. They had finished their background checks on John Andrew and Melinda and had verified commercial airline schedules and private plane flight plans and found no record that either of them had traveled the night of December 25. Their alibis were solid. "

Checked schedules??? What just because there were flights at the required times the police accepted that JAR and Melinda took those flights?  Did they not have passenger manifests to check against?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 10, 2019, 05:08:56 PM
PMPT page#257 ★ ★ ★

"For seven weeks the police had been interviewing the Ramseys’ family, friends, and business associates without turning up any real suspects. They had finished their background checks on John Andrew and Melinda and had verified commercial airline schedules and private plane flight plans and found no record that either of them had traveled the night of December 25. Their alibis were solid. "
Checked schedules???
"Their alibis were solid" appears to be more the opinion of the author.  He doesn't appear to be quoting any specific officer, with any detailed proof.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 10, 2019, 05:59:21 PM
PMPT: "John Andrew Ramsey and his friend Brad Millard had given pubic hair samples, which did not match the hair found on the white blanket covering JonBenét’s body.The investigation of John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey was nearly over. As far as Alex Hunter knew, the older children were no longer suspects, and the Ramseys’ attorneys were demanding that they be publicly cleared so they could get on with their lives. Hunter agreed. It was unconscionable to ruin the lives of these young people because of baseless suspicion.

Page #285"

What about Stewart Long Melinda's boyfriend as the source of the pubic hair?  If they thought of testing Melinda what about a sexual partner of Melinda's?  Had he ever stayed in the Ramsey home?  For wasn't that the same reason Brad Millard was checked out?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 07:57:27 AM
"The FBI concluded that if the duct tape over JonBenét’s mouth had been used to silence her during an attempted abduction, the kidnapper would have taken her out of the house immediately. There would have been no reason to stay where the kidnapper could be discovered at any moment. Instead, they theorized, the duct tape too was probably used as part of a cover-up, along with the loosely tied cord found around JonBenét’s right wrist.Whether the duct tape had been placed on JonBenét’s mouth before or after her death could be determined by an examination of the body and tape. Skin trauma would be evident if she had been alive when the tape was applied. Applying the tape after her death would not produce noticeable skin markings. Coroner Meyer had not reported any trauma to the skin around JonBenét’s mouth. The probable behavior of the offender was an important factor. If the killer did not intend to kidnap JonBenét, he or she must have been there for a reason, perhaps to assault her. But if there had been no intent to kidnap, why did the killer write the ransom note?
From PMPT.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 02:39:14 PM
"The FBI concluded that if the duct tape over JonBenét’s mouth had been used to silence her during an attempted abduction, the kidnapper would have taken her out of the house immediately. There would have been no reason to stay where the kidnapper could be discovered at any moment. Instead, they theorized, the duct tape too was probably used as part of a cover-up, along with the loosely tied cord found around JonBenét’s right wrist.Whether the duct tape had been placed on JonBenét’s mouth before or after her death could be determined by an examination of the body and tape. Skin trauma would be evident if she had been alive when the tape was applied. Applying the tape after her death would not produce noticeable skin markings. Coroner Meyer had not reported any trauma to the skin around JonBenét’s mouth. The probable behavior of the offender was an important factor. If the killer did not intend to kidnap JonBenét, he or she must have been there for a reason, perhaps to assault her. But if there had been no intent to kidnap, why did the killer write the ransom note?
From PMPT.
I think this thread has made a very good attempt to answer that very question.

"But if there had been no intent to kidnap, why did the killer write the ransom note?"

If you don't think you know the answer you need to go and read the thread again.

I'm just up to the bit about Jeff Shapiro in the book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and he seemed to also have intentions to look at Melinda and John Andrew. 
One bit that is mentioned but not covered fully is the hint that Melinda was having a mental breakdown.
Her mother Lucinda just dismissed the idea.  What I would have liked to know is where did the initial idea that Melinda was suffering from depression come from.

PMPT: "Shapiro wanted to know whether an unsubstantiated rumor that Melinda had checked into a Georgia health clinic for depression was true. This time, he introduced himself as a freelance college journalist living in Boulder. “Some people are saying these awful things about Melinda,” Shapiro said. “She’s wonderful,” Lucinda replied. “Just fine. The rumor you’ve heard is ridiculous.” Lucinda asked Shapiro if he knew her son. He said that he’d met John Andrew. Then he told Lucinda that his name was Jeff Scott. “Are you the one who wrote him a letter?” “Yes,” Shapiro replied. “I don’t want to talk to you. Don’t ever call this house.” She hung up."

Jeff Shapiro is an oddity but I admire his courage to get to the bottom of the issue.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 03:01:39 PM
I think this thread has made a very good attempt to answer that very question.

But if there had been no intent to kidnap, why did the killer write the ransom note?

If you don't think you know the answer you need to go and read the thread again.

I'm just up to the bit about Jeff Shapiro in the book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and he seemed to also have intentions to look at Melinda and John Andrew. 
One bit that is mentioned but not covered fully is the hint that Melinda was having a mental breakdown.
Her mother Lucinda just dismissed the idea.  What I would have liked to know is where did the initial idea that Melinda was suffering from depression come from.

PMPT: "Shapiro wanted to know whether an unsubstantiated rumor that Melinda had checked into a Georgia health clinic for depression was true. This time, he introduced himself as a freelance college journalist living in Boulder. “Some people are saying these awful things about Melinda,” Shapiro said. “She’s wonderful,” Lucinda replied. “Just fine. The rumor you’ve heard is ridiculous.” Lucinda asked Shapiro if he knew her son. He said that he’d met John Andrew. Then he told Lucinda that his name was Jeff Scott. “Are you the one who wrote him a letter?” “Yes,” Shapiro replied. “I don’t want to talk to you. Don’t ever call this house.” She hung up."

Jeff Shapiro is an oddity but I admire his courage to get to the bottom of the issue.
The only conclusion that is possible is that the incident about Shapiro's letter to John Andrew was significant enough for John Andrew to report back to his mother about it, and important enough for her to remember his undercover name "Jeff Scott", and then to hang up on him. 

IMO that is showing signs of being rattled.  Do Jeff Shapiro's enquiries go any deeper?  I can't wait to read on further.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 07:28:01 PM
PMPT page #383: "John Ramsey said that he had gone down to the basement at around 10:00 A.M. that morning. It was the first the police had heard about this. None of Detective Arndt’s reports indicated that Ramsey had visited the basement before the body was found."

Still doesn't exclude a visit later than that too.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 08:42:58 PM
PMPT: "Then I added, “Let justice be done though thy heaven fall.” —Jeff Shapiro" 

True quote of the phrase was "“Let justice be done though the heavens fall.”"

Wikipedia:
"Fīat jūstitia ruat cælum is a Latin legal phrase, meaning "Let justice be done though the heavens fall." The maxim signifies the belief that justice must be realized regardless of consequences. ... It was used in the landmark judgment Somerset v Stewart, where slavery was held to be unlawful at common law."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 09:30:29 PM
I don't know what to make of this PMPT page #418 : "Meanwhile, Steve Thomas visited McGuckin Hardware, which John Ramsey—or someone impersonating him— had called in January. In the sporting goods department, Thomas found white nylon cord similar to the cord around JonBenét’s neck. He bought four packages of Coghlan’s Cord, for $2.29 each. In addition, he found black duct tape with the brand name Suretape. Both items sold for the same price and came from the same department that appeared on Patsy Ramsey’s December 1996 sales slips. A week after Thomas made his purchases, Dave Williams, an investigator for the Ramseys, called Joanne Hanks at McGuckin and asked for itemized receipts of Patsy’s December 2 and December 9 purchases, only to discover that the police had them. In Patsy’s April 30 police interview, Thomas had asked her about the purchase of duct tape, and Williams was following up for his clients. Now both the police and the Ramseys’ investigators knew that the items could have been purchased by Patsy just weeks before JonBenét’s murder."

What are they saying they had been purchased early in December.  But the remainder of the cord and duct tape were never found in the house.  To me that sounds more like someone removed them after they committed the crime.
Also means they weren't purchased for the purpose of committing a crime.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 10:16:50 PM
"By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro,"
"My Search for JonBenet Ramsey's Killer – a 15th Anniversary Retrospective" https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/my-search-for-jonbenet-ramseys-killer-a-15th-anniversary-retrospective

He seems to have gone with the mob and forgotten his run in with Lucinda.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 11, 2019, 10:30:22 PM
"The Ghost of Christmas Past" https://drinkthis.typepad.com/shapiro/2006/05/the_ghost_of_ch.html

That is a strange story.  Fact or fiction?

John Fogerty and the Midnight Special https://youtu.be/jRObhHR3XwU


Seems unrelated to the original Jonbenet incident.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-michael-mcelroy.htm

Jeff Shapiro has gone from Hero to Zero ...  scraping the barrel .... why?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 06:26:55 PM
I was over halfway through the online version of the book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and I thought I'd scan ahead for the word "Melinda".  In fact I scanned the whole book twice and I was amazed to see the real evidence come to light nearer the end.
https://epdf.pub/perfect-murder-perfect-town-the-uncensored-story-of-the-jonbenet-murder-and-the-.html

I was surprised to also see Jeff Shapiro's radar fail too nearer the end as he begins to "like" Melinda sending her flowers. 
I'm now wondering if Jeff actually knew and felt a degree of sympathy towards Melinda, and possibly John Andrew, to the point where he would raise the stupidest distractions like the incidents above just to protect the kids.

That book was a best seller and must have been read millions of times so how is it that everyone else is not seeing "the evidence".  Do we all begin to somewhat sympathise with Melinda for what John did and allow our intellect to fail?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 07:22:40 PM
Am I the only one who has seen the DNA results showing Melinda can't be John Ramsey's biological daughter?

Did that lack of paternity affect John's "love" for Melinda, was the bond spoilt by some sort of primal instinct of nature?  (Going back to my first discovered discrepancy in this case covered in the first post of this thread.)

It has been said many times to me, "you mustn't have favourites amongst your kids".  But John Ramsey certainly did, and we can't turn the clock back and change that, and the clock has been made worse by the death of Jonbenet.

Are the laws of Nature playing more tricks here?

"Are humans monogamous?"  one answer was quite considered "I once read a debate between two anthropologists on that subject. One, (a male) was pointing out the typical “male” mating strategy common among many animals. Spread the genes. Have as many mates as possible.

Or as the King Of Siam said, “the bee flits from flower to flower, the flower does not flit from bee to bee”.

The other scientist (a female) pointed out the evolutionary advantage of pair-bonding. Successful child-rearing, provision, protection, etc, etc. That human beings had a natural tendency to pair bond.

We might bear in mind that for much of our evolutionary history, life-spans were short. Child-bearing was dangerous and infant deaths were high. In terms of population… It might have been better to “spread the seed around”.

But….We also evolved in small, inter-related groups of hunter-gatherers and if our cousins the great apes are any indication, only the Alpha Male had the privilege of mating with the females. Younger, subordinate males did not, unless they snuck off into the bushes. (This has been observed in chimps… Even between members of different clans)

So… Looks complex, doesn’t it? Certainly in human history we see a great deal of cheating going on. Lets face it, prostitution was common in all early civilizations.

But there’s been no lack of “cheating” among females as well, even with the high risk of pregnancy and societal condemnation.

(Generally not the case for men)

We see as well the phenomena where, for instance, a man is quite “loyal” to the wife/family and remains a good provider and all, and yet seeks out mating partners outside the marriage. In some societies, this is almost a status symbol. To maintain a mistress is a sign of wealth and power. Not at all uncommon among our “world leaders”.

My gut feeling on the whole thing is that men are generally more willing to seek out sexual experiences outside of existing relationships.

They do not often require any sort of emotional commitment for this."
https://www.quora.com/Are-humans-monogamous?redirected_qid=42975280


But what happens if one of the strays lands in your own nest?  IMO most people don't know how they will cope, and I don't believe it is a matter of thinking about it, it is more instinctive than thought.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 10:20:47 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg518786#msg518786

"at Loci D7s820 Melinda has no alleles in common with John Ramsey snr. so from that she is not John's biological daughter.
That is a surprise.
Well there are only two options:
1.  either there is an error in the lab results or
2. Melinda is not John Ramsey's biological daughter.

One or the other.

Half of Melinda's and half of JA's DNA profile will have come from the mother Lucinda.

It is not 9.9 but rather 9,9 meaning that Melinda is homologous for that allele at that locus, i.e she received a STR allele at that location of 9 from both her father and her mother, yet John Ramsey doesn't have that 9 allele to pass onto her. Therefore I say unless she was a very rare mutant or the lab has made an error, she is not the biological offspring of John Ramsey Snr. ..."

Note: Never mind the Facebook entry has been modified and the form is no longer there. but I do have a copy on my computer, and I'll upload it to this site.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 10:51:18 PM
DNA results:

Look at the column that says "locus" look down to "D7S820"

JBR =8,10
BR = 8,10
Patsy= 8,8
John= 10,12
Melinda = 9,9
JAR = 9,10

To be a biological daughter Melinda would need a 10 or a 12 at this locus but the result is 9,9. 
Logic states that Lucinda (Melinda's mum must have a 9, or a 10 at this loci, and her biological father must have a 9 allele at this site.)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 11:13:01 PM
DNA results:

Look at the column that says "locus" look down to "D7S820"

JBR =8,10
BR = 8,10
Patsy= 8,8
John= 10,12
Melinda = 9,9
JAR = 9,10

To be a biological daughter Melinda would need a 10 or a 12 at this locus but the result is 9,9. 
Logic states that Lucinda (Melinda's mum must have a 9, or a 10 at this loci, and her biological father must have a 9 allele at this site.)

I have now found the original Bode Report on the internet http://linearsight.com/pdfFiles/BodeLabreports.pdf
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 12, 2019, 11:37:35 PM
Does anyone know if Jeff Ramsey provided a DNA sample?  Two brothers can have very similar DNA profiles and because Melinda's profile is consistent with being a John Ramsey child on all the other loci tested I would have to consider that a very closely related individual to John Ramsey being her father.
Does anyone know why John and Lucinda divorced?  I read that Lucinda and Patsy were good friends so one would think Lucinda didn't hold a grudge against Patsy for breaking up the marriage so maybe that wasn't the reason for the split.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 13, 2019, 06:00:49 PM
Lou Smit showed Patsy and John many of the crimescene photographs taken by the police in the days after the murder. In one photo Patsy noticed a small white toy bear dressed in a Santa suit. It was among the other toys on the second bed in JonBenét’s room. She told Smit she didn’t know where the bear came from. The stuffed toy had not been confiscated by police after the murder, and now it seemed to be missing. In the coming months the DA’s office would try to determine how it got there.
I need to look into the bear later.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 13, 2019, 07:33:45 PM
I wonder if Jameson still accepts her theory as quoted in PMPT?
"Jameson told Lou Smit her theory of the murder: While the Ramseys were at the Whites’ house on Christmas night, an intruder had entered their house and hid in the basement. The intruder was young and a friend of John Andrew’s and might have had a history of pedophilia. Jameson said that after the intruder entered the house, he fantasized about kidnapping JonBenét for sex, while always knowing he would kill her. While waiting for the family to get home, he wrote the ransom note. When they returned and JonBenét was put to bed, the intruder took her from her room and inadvertently killed her, sooner than he had planned. For his part, Lou Smit listened to Jameson and tried to reconcile what she said with what he knew."

I have posted the same question on the Facebook forum that I keep an eye on.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 13, 2019, 07:48:07 PM
The full autopsy report has been released.  That was news to me, as I thought there were still points held back.  Looking at the list of things released I'd have to say I have only read the early version of the autopsy report at this stage. 

PMPT:
"On August 13, the full, uncensored autopsy report, including six brief sections that had been held back from the public since May 15, was released. The details previously not disclosed to the public were that a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt had been draped over JonBenét’s body after she was brought upstairs; that a red heart was found drawn on her left palm; that there was a sequined star on the front of her knit nightshirt; that she wore a gold cross necklace; that blue ties held her hair in ponytails; that the word Wednesday was sewn on her panties; and that a gold bracelet hung on her right wrist, bearing the inscriptions “JonBenét” and “12/25/96.” The public also learned that the possible murder weapon was something like a garrote made from a stick “irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and apparent glistening varnish on the surface . . . Printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word ‘Korea.’” "

Full text of the autopsy report is located https://www.denverpost.com/1996/08/13/text-of-jonbenet-autopsy-report/?fbclid=IwAR022NCe01UpxzSF2yW4jBO0SvzOjT36wB_aJz3xx0e37pUeMHiMjrxoQ9I
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 14, 2019, 09:00:02 AM
recommended book by Paula Woodward "We Have Your Daughter: The Unsolved Murder of JonBenét Ramsey Twenty Years Later"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 14, 2019, 07:54:16 PM
Jonbenet has a bed wetting problem, her blanket, pyjamas and sheets etc were laundered everyday.  One documentary made a point that the DNA found on the pyjamas and panties could have come from the manufacturing process.  Surely this would only be true on the first wearing, if the items were straight out of the package.  If any of the clothing had been slept in before it would have been washed and all traces of touch DNA would be eliminated IMO.

Has it been established that the clothes Jonbenet was wearing were brand new?  If they were brand new:
Where were they purchased? 
Who bought them? 
Who gave them to her to wear?   
Who dressed her in those clothes?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 15, 2019, 10:53:38 AM
This is the crime scene photo of the blanket and the pink Barbie nightshirt. (http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase075.jpg)

Text of autopsy report https://www.denverpost.com/1996/08/13/text-of-jonbenet-autopsy-report/?fbclid=IwAR2XA9Eq90jKlsi_yy0phWhMVEA8FKS6ms86gnJVJwaZrE5UBmuSUjbW4Uw
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 15, 2019, 10:31:45 PM
https://charlierose.com/videos/12383
"Ann Louise Bardach of Vanity Fair and Gregg McCrary, retired special agent of the FBI, discuss the JonBenét ransom note and the implications to the guilt of John and Patsy Ramsey.

it is what Gregg McCrary says that confirms an earlier point I made.
From the transcript which is nearly perfect:
"7:14Ann Louise Bardach: --was, in fact, one of Patsy Ramsey's paintbrushes. Now, you could say that sounds very incriminating, but you can-- what the defense team will argue is, ''Well, someone broke in and took her paintbrush and broke it in half and created a garrote.'' But in fact, it was made-- she was an amateur painter and it was made from her supplies. What Gregg said is absolutely true, is you have just a, you know, kind of a big pile of circumstantial evidence and-- but no one, big smoking gun. You have a kind of cleaned-up, sanitized crime scene. Somebody, you know, cleaned up the scene. A lot of people-- a lot of the experts believe the child was re-dressed. You know, her clothes were-- there's controversy about was she re-dressed or not. Her clothes look pretty tidy and clean for somebody who was brutally bludgeoned and strangled. And she also-- one of the things that's in this story is, is that there's odd touches. She's found in this basement storage room, but found with her is her very, very favorite possession in the world, according to one of her relatives, her pageant nightgown. It's, you know, snuggled up with her. Well, usually, if you're going in to kill a child, you wouldn't bother to get their favorite thing and put it alongside them. I mean, as Gregg would tell you, you know, they-- they seize children, kill them and throw them in a ditch.18:32Charlie Rose: Yeah.18:34Ann Louise Bardach: You know, you don't put your favorite blanket over them and that kind of--18:38Charlie Rose: Yeah? Gregg?18:40Gregg McCrary: This evidence-- again, that's evidence that-- all offender behavior is significant and when you look at that, it deals with caring and concern. And if you have caring and concern-- as paradoxical as it may sound, you have that at homicide scenes. But what that tells you is that's usually indicative of a pre-existing relationship. Even though there's been a homicide, still there's caring and concern for the victim. So again, that's one more thing that weighs against-- weighs against a stranger. And if I might make one other point, as well? When Ann was talking about this idea that some of the-- apparently, the district attorneys believe that the Ramseys couldn't have done it because they're good Christians, they're nice people and so forth. This is the wrong way to go about an investigation. And this is a-- this is a trap that people fall into sometimes. We want child killers -- especially child killers, a heinous crime -- to be different than you and I and we're not comfortable when they are like us. We want them to have a hunchback and drool, one eye in the center of their forehead and drag a leg behind them when they walk and all that. The reality is, though, that murders and child murders are committed by people who are otherwise very nice people and we just don't want that to be true. And it's an unsettling thing and sometimes people have trouble getting over it, but can't be what drives the investigation. The facts have to drive the investigation and the theories have to emerge from the facts, not some preconception whether someone could do this or not do it."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2019, 10:11:48 AM
In that interview Ann Bardach raises the question of whether Jonbenet was redressed.  You would think someone with the case and information right at hand would have been able to answer that question. 

That was the same question I'm asking above, but the case is relatively new to me.   How can I determine this matter definitively years later?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2019, 06:27:22 PM
this page has the DNA results from samples taken at the crime scene https://juror13lw.com/2018/04/13/is-burke-ramsey-a-contributor-to-the-unknown-male-1-codis-profile/


This page looks at the pink night gown found beside Jonbenet. https://juror13lw.com/2018/04/13/the-pink-nightgown-paradox/

Underwear stains DNA results compared.  https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/comparisons-to-stain-on-underwear-jpg.132882/
(https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/comparisons-to-stain-on-underwear-jpg.132882/)

At TH01 there is no result for John Ramsey.  But with the knowledge of DNA and JR being the father, and Patsy being the mother of Burke and Jonbenet it is possible to fill that space in. JBR is homologous with 9.3 so both JR and Patsy have a 9.3 allele.    Patsy also has a 7 at this locus so Burke's 7 could only come from Patsy, as Burke has the two alleles 6 and 7 but Patsy doesn't have a 6 so that had to come from John.  So JR at locus TH01 has alleles 6, 9.3 by deduction.

The mixed profile at that locus has a 9 and none of the Ramsey set has a 9 but could that just come from the presence DNA from the manufacture of the panties.

Maybe but only if the panties had not been washed before.  Were they really brand new?  Who bought them?  Where were they bought from?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2019, 07:19:08 PM
What's this about a DNA result that hobbles together the family DNA? https://youtu.be/-W6qMcvLnr4 "JonBenét Ramsey DNA"? [not enough to be conclusive IMO].
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2019, 10:20:29 PM
....
The mixed profile at that locus has a 9 and none of the Ramsey set has a 9 but could that just come from the presence DNA from the manufacture of the panties.

Maybe but only if the panties had not been washed before.  Were they really brand new?  Who bought them?  Where were they bought from?
Looking up about the panties this is one explanation. (I'm not saying it is correwct but it gives me some words to do further Google searches with.)

"As for the DNA evidence found on JonBenet’s underpants, it should be noted that these underpants did not belong to JonBenet. Although they were identical to the underpants JonBenet was wearing that day, they were actually the underpants suitable for a 12 year old child. Patsy purchased two packets of ‘days of the week’ underpants from Bloomingdales in NYC before Christmas, one packet for a 6 year old girl, JonBenet, and one for a 12 year old girl, Patsy’s niece.

JonBenet was found wearing the correct day of the week pair, Wednesday, but from the brand new packet meant for Patsy’s niece. The underpants that were JonBenet’s size were not recovered. The packet from which the pair suitable for a 12 year old girl was recovered, I believe in the basement, and only the Wednesday pair was taken from the brand new packet."

Well did Patsy's niece ever get DNA tested?  Who was this niece?
One clue " that was put away supposedly for Patsy's niece Jenny as a Christmas gift."  Her first name maybe Jenny.

That's about the extent of it.  Not really explained at all, but the rumour is they were bought by Patsy.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 16, 2019, 10:23:19 PM
Was the nightshirt with the sequined star also a present? 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 17, 2019, 10:47:05 AM
Remember that Jonbenet said that Santa was going to visit her after Christmas.  Was that the enticement to get her to descend the stairs into the basement?   Were there presents down there for her?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 17, 2019, 05:53:41 PM
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682456/Clothing#WhiteCollarlessShirt covers the types of clothing but I would like to see the words Patsy used.
Does Patsy admit dressing JBR in oversized panties?
When she put JBR to bed what was the colour of the night attire?
From the autopsy report "The decedent is clothed in a long sleeved white knit collarless shirt, the mid anterior chest area of which contains an embroidered silver star decorated with silver sequins."

That sounds like a rather special shirt.  Where did it come from?  Who embroidered it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 17, 2019, 06:15:25 PM
Plenty of sources describe what JBR was wearing but no one as yet has described how she came to be wearing so much bling.

This Denver Post article covers all the bling. https://extras.denverpost.com/news/ram1014k.htm.

"When he examined JonBenét's body, Boulder County Coroner John Meyer noted she was wearing a long-sleeved, white knit shirt with a silver star embroidered on the front, and a gold necklace with a cross on it. Her blond hair was in two ponytails and she wore a yellow metal band on her right middle finger, a yellow ID bracelet that bore the name "JonBenét'' on one side and the date 12/25/96'' on the other side.

On the palm of her left hand, someone had drawn a red ink heart.

According to Det. Linda Arndt, who witnessed the autopsy, green Christmas garland, like the garland decorating the spiral staircase in the house, was tangled in her hair.

JonBenét was wearing long underwear, and beneath the long underwear was a pair of white panties with printed rosebuds and the words "Wednesday'' in the waistband. There were urine stains and several red stains. According to a search warrant affidavit, Dr. Meyer told Arndt the stains looked like blood.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 17, 2019, 11:21:35 PM
The thread "The Redressing(?) of JonBenet" forumsforjustice.org/forums/threads/the-redressing-of-jonbenet.6870/
Is the closest I've seen that discusses the topic head on.
But I couldn't find anything to support the idea that the white top hadn't been on all the time.

(Correction I did see a photo of Jonbenet at the party the night before and it did look like the white top. )  Forgot to save the link - stupid me!)

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article18800954.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_New-suspect-unmasked-in-JonnBenet-Ramsey-murder-case-as-serial-killer-theory-emerges.jpg
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article18800954.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_New-suspect-unmasked-in-JonnBenet-Ramsey-murder-case-as-serial-killer-theory-emerges.jpg)

It doesn't say what time of the day this was , but the hair looks rather untidy so my initial impression is that this was real early on Christmas day.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 06:01:07 PM
Looking at the pattern of urine staining on the panties in my experience that would suggest that the urination occurred while JBR was lying on her front, face down to the floor.

I can imagine this was when a person was pulling on the handle of the garrote from behind with pressure applied from behind to stop JBR being lifted off the floor.

I'm tending to think this was more a mercy killing action.  JBR had previously been asphyxiated as part of a sexual abusive act, given a blow to the head, given time to recover, but it wasn't happening, the brain damage only got worse as time passed, so the person felt "she" had to kill her out of kindness.

I use the term "she" as any adult male would have had the strength and aggression to just strangle her outright without having to resort to garrotes with handles.
IMO the paint brush was more a spur of the moment idea.  "What can I use? This paint brush will do the trick."

Well at least I've made up my mind now, Jonbenet finally dies of strangulation, face down to the floor.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 06:20:59 PM
No one other than John Ramsey saw the duct tape over her mouth.  Forensically there were lip prints on the tape suggestive of the tape being applied after death rather than causing death.  Unless both the mouth and nose was fully blocked off I can't see that being effective.  Just applying tape over the mouth suggests "shut up" rather than "die" to me.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 06:33:08 PM
What I find bloody odd about this case is that Melinda turns up in Boulder with her fiance Stewart Long, which implies to me that John Andrew, Melinda and Stewart travelled together, but in the reports there was only talk of Melinda and John travelling together.

I still think the alibis need another looking into.  Were there 3 of them on the flights or just 2?   
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 06:35:48 PM
 I think I will leave the examination of this case at this point.

I maybe back, I may not.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 09:28:12 PM
When I see the thread getting over 300 views in a day now, I start to wonder if it was a good idea to abandon the Jonbenet case.  36 people reading the thread right now!  That is truly remarkable considering the struggle to get started in the beginning.  Could it really go viral?  Have I really cracked it?   No, all I have is about 100 reasons to look into Melinda.  But I can't do that on my own, so I appeal for Help.

One area that I left you all hanging was for the evidence I saw in the book "Perfect Murder Perfect Town".  Remember I scanned ahead looking for "Melinda".  Maybe I should explain my thoughts, but they are only thoughts and not evidence when all said and done.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 09:44:54 PM
So much is discussed on the internet:
https://youtu.be/GcNj3sjA2hg  covers what Mark Beckner feels about how JBR died.  It parallels what I said above.

But he didn't say it was at the time of being face down on the floor whilst being held down from behind.

But I still think the neck ligature was applied long before that final asphyxiation too.

The AMAA with Mark Beckner is found here https://extras.denverpost.com/jonbenetAMA.html

Definition: AMA and AMAA:
What does AMA and  AMAA mean, and what's the difference between them?

Ask Me Anything ("I'm open to a variety of questions")

vs

Ask Me Almost Anything ("I'm open to a variety, but I'm telling you now that I may not answer some.")
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 09:59:53 PM
Mark Beckner:
"We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories." End quote.

****
He must have that wrong for a body does not bleed or become inflamed after death, so I still think the sexual activity and minor bleeding came before death and wasn't part of the staging.
****
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 18, 2019, 10:30:28 PM
https://youtu.be/045Jc8A7cjg?t=153

The earliest CNN interview with Patsy and John.   Patsy says the note was addressed to John and said we have your daughter. 

Could that daughter be Melinda or or Jonbenet? 
Either was possible when the note was first written?

But when Patsy goes back upstairs and finds JBR's bed empty  it seems reasonable for Patsy to assume it was referring to Jonbenet.  But was it really?  What was it about the bed that made Patsy think JBR had been kidnapped and not just playing in another part of that enormous house?

Sometimes she slept in Burke's room.  She'd have to check there.   Would Jonbenet go down to play with the toys Burke had put together the night before?  That is a possibility.  She'd have to call out her name at least.

Was there a clue for Patsy?  Was it that the bed hadn't been slept in, and the bed hadn't been pissed in?  The bed would also be very cold to the touch.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 19, 2019, 12:09:30 AM
Mark Beckner:
"We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories."


He must have that wrong for a body does not bleed or become inflamed after death, so I still think the sexual activity and minor bleeding came before death and wasn't part of the staging.
If Mark Beckner is right about this scenario, in particular the delay between the head blow and the strangulation, why would any kidnapper wait in the house that length of time before finishing off the child.  I suppose it could be if she came around the kidnapping could still go ahead.  Odd behaviour for someone who would generally be keen to get out of there.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 19, 2019, 01:23:35 AM
According to CNN, an original prosecutor on the Ramsey case claimed that Bill Reynolds had given JonBenét a card with the message: "You will receive a special gift after Christmas." The outlet also reported that Janet had penned a play with a few eery similarities to the case — the plot revolved around a girl who was molested and murdered in her basement. However, the connections turned out to be purely coincidental, as both Bill and Janet submitted hair, handwriting, and blood samples and were cleared of any involvement in the crime.

Who even made that claim to begin with?  https://youtu.be/MPVNXLkB12g?t=93

"Trip DeMuth, one of the original prosecutors on the case, told me that Santa Bill gave JonBenet a card that read: "You will receive a special gift after Christmas.""  Who is the "me" here?  Is that Anderson Cooper?
https://edition.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/08/did-santa-claus-kill-jonbenet.html

Is that the police revealing vital information to the media?  What totally untrue information!

Was there a card that said something like this?  The kids and the family were going to go to Charlevoix for a "second Christmas" as John Ramsey said so there is every expectation that Jonbenet would receive presents the day after Christmas.

https://edition.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/08/did-santa-claus-kill-jonbenet.html 
All very strange.  Who else might have known about the plot in Mrs Reynolds play, - a murder in a basement  "And Janet McReynolds had written a play about a child who was molested in her basement, then murdered."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 19, 2019, 02:05:06 AM
What is also quite telling is the way John Ramsey explains on CNN how he comes to find  Jonbenet.
https://youtu.be/045Jc8A7cjg?t=188  The ransom note told the Ramseys to wait for a phone call.   
Remember note said call would be between 8 and 10 AM.  Which seems early if the Ramseys are expected to have the money on hand by then.

So what does John himself say?
"we waited till after the time the call was supposed to have been made to us, and one of the detectives asked me and my friend, who was there, to go through every inch of the house to see if there was anything unusual or abnormal or looked out of place. (Patsy mumbles something about "give us a clue") then John continues "I think she was asking us to do that more, giving us something to do to occupy our minds, and so we ahh  (long pause) started in the basement .....

This was supposedly 3 hours after 10:00 AM.  but his recollection is that it was just after the expected phone call.  OK it isn't a biggy unless you consider that the friends had checked out the basement themselves just after 10:00 AM.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 19, 2019, 07:23:32 PM
The interview tapes of Patsy Ramsey  - convince me she had nothing to do with it.  https://youtu.be/r9ocC6ROcas?list=PL7y_212E2kmu-XC9218Jr6xtNQOav9nkq

The police ask her how her fingerprints get on to the bowl of pineapple.  Has anyone seen Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl?
Was that another example of police disinformation?

What was the trace evidence Trip is talking about?  https://youtu.be/r9ocC6ROcas?list=PL7y_212E2kmu-XC9218Jr6xtNQOav9nkq&t=276 
It seems to be all psychological pressure.  Where is the evidence.

There is all this misinformation about the fingerprints on the bowl.  Was there really undigested pineapple in her stomach.  That is not mentioned in the autopsy report. 
https://youtu.be/r9ocC6ROcas?list=PL7y_212E2kmu-XC9218Jr6xtNQOav9nkq&t=367





Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 19, 2019, 08:53:17 PM
what I do know is that people can make a slip of the tongue

What I hear in this video confused me to begin with, https://youtu.be/_bMKzzGoWEQ?list=PL7y_212E2kmu-XC9218Jr6xtNQOav9nkq&t=510.
But I listened to it a few times and he does say "NEITHER  Patsy or I gave Jonbenet pineapple to eat".

To begin with I thought he said: "EITHER  Patsy or I gave Jonbenet pineapple to eat".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 20, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
there was duct tape on her mouth and a ligature around her neck and loosely tied cords on her hands.

What order would you as a parent undo the restraints?

I think removing the duct tape is first but surely  the binds on the hands is less important than the garrote around her neck.

In this interview John says the knot on the hands was too tight, but that is not correct as one wrist the ligature just slipped off and on the other hand the knot could be easily undone.

It was the knot on the neck that could not be undone IMO.

The order that he tries to undo the restraints seems wrong if he was attempting to save her life.
https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?t=950  or thereabouts.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 20, 2019, 07:18:43 PM
https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?t=2296 
Do you really think John Ramsey didn't know what the Grand Jury  has decided?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLKsEEcINyo&feature=youtu.be&t=2360  .... "accessory  ... I don't know what that really means?"  I struggle to believe that.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 20, 2019, 07:20:57 PM
https://youtu.be/WLKsEEcINyo?t=2451

Writing the wrong date on Jonbenet tombstone is also a bit dubious. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 01:44:40 AM
So just in that one video I find three things where I end up questioning John Ramsey's honesty. 

1  The illogical order of removing the restraints,
2  Not understanding the findings of the Grand Jury,
3  the incorrect date on the tombstone. 

If there was a common reason behind these, could that all be made to point to the one thing?  Can these 3 things all have a common cause?

If Burke did it, and Patsy and John did a cover-up, I suppose that theory could also result in these three things happening.  Obviously that is a powerful theory also and as the CBS documentary showed it got considerable support.

I might think it is a un-Christian thing to make a crime look as if it was done by someone else.
Burke was too young to be charged with murder so why cover it up?  The blow to the head didn't kill her.  In fact if she had been given medical attention the brain swelling could have been controlled, the bleeding could have been relieved.

If Burke had hit her on the head with whatever, it still took up to 2 hours to get the brain swelling that was found histologically before one of the parents strangled her from behind.  That is murder IMO even if it was done as a mercy killing.  Even if they thought "well she is going to die in any case, let's make it look like an outsider did it".
But an outsider would hardly wait around for 2 hours, no an outsider could have just given her another blow to the head, and fled.

Definition Histology "Histology: The study of the form of structures seen under the microscope (light, electron, infrared ). Also called microscopic anatomy, as opposed to gross anatomy which involves structures that can be observed with the naked eye. ... The word "histology" came from the Greek "histo-" meaning tissue + "logos", treatise."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 02:10:48 AM
Looking at the video produced by the Armchair Detective  "#51, Patsy Ramsey "why did they do it ""  https://youtu.be/xivBSm0WD24, here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

 The statement by Linda Arndt (LA) that she knew the killer was in the room, is more a paranoia rather than a fact.

If John Ramsey had killed his daughter I can't imagine why he would ask LA if JBR was still alive?  Or was it "Is she dead?"

We don't know what was going on in JR's head at that moment, but would LA be able to tell the difference between JR having killed JBR or JR thinking maybe one of his elder kids from his first marriage had killed her.

Later on he is told that the kids alibis are solid and the DNA seems to show it was done by a male, maybe the thought "one of his elder kids from his first marriage had killed her" was finally able to be put aside as the DNA by that stage was pointing to one or more male offenders.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 03:01:50 AM
From the video "Spirits say what happened to Jonbenet Ramsey (2018)"

Lady talking gets some facts wrong.    She says the Ramsey's hired Lou Smit, when Lou was hired by the DA.

The 1500 people walked through the Ramsey house several years before (??).  Not that year.

She brings up a good point that it might be possible to talk the spirit of Patsy Ramsey now!

There are sounds like they are tuning a radio and quickly passing the stations (they call this "spirit box").   I find videos such as these totally BS.

https://youtu.be/5fIkY1a12BA

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 05:52:18 AM
What is this?  "Patsy Ramsey/ She wrote the practice ransom note"  I think the claim here was wrong.

Sorry about that I had not given you the link "The Smoking Gun! Patsy wrote the Note!"  https://youtu.be/4qEDoEk6q0I  (did the title change overnight?).

Has the author got a valid point?

I feel it is the testimony that carries the evidence, and Patsy says "No" she never told anyone she wrote the practice ransom note.



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 07:05:47 PM
On a similar line "And Even MORE proof John Ramsey wrote the Ransom Note!"   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTITeF5A0Rk  on lindalovesmusic1 channel.

So who wrote the note Patsy or John?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 09:47:23 PM
Would it be able to apply the findings of the New Theory to find the critical faults in the CBS documentary "The Case Of: Jonbenét Ramsey" https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4 ?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 21, 2019, 09:59:05 PM
I think an additional handset had been raised.  If there were other voices they weren't from Patsy.  This happens if one can accept the kidnappers were still on site listening into the 911 call.  The CBS team say "there were only 4 people in the house"  OK that was a wrong assumption IMO.

So the whole program starts from a possible misconception. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 12:29:15 AM
Kim Archuletta the 911 operator thinks she hears completely different phrases to what the documentary claims.
Both are probably wrong IMO.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 12:53:16 AM
When the team analyses the ransom note they find several similarities to dialogue from movies.  That would be rather bizarre IMO if someone could come up with these references in an unplanned kidnap situation.  A cover-up IMO would be an unplanned kidnap. 
To me it suggests whoever did this had the idea of using the movies about kidnaps as a source of inspiration.  In other words the kidnapping scenario was planned. Plan to get the money rather than to kill the child even if the note mentions "she dies" often enough.

https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=1742  the mention of two practice notes surprises me.  I had heard of one practice notes but two??????
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 12:58:29 AM
Jim Clemente comes to the conclusion the letter was staged. https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=1866

I disagree with that idea, IMO it was test in compliance for John to pass.  "don't try and grow a brain, use your head."  or words to that effect. 

It may not have been intended as an kidnap note but an intelligence test.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 01:53:16 AM
https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=3830

They come to the wrong conclusion that "the garrote does not cause the death but the blow to the head does".
https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=3900  "the cause of death is blow to the head by a blunt object".

As I said earlier the histological evidence showed brain swelling and the death was 45 mins to 2 hours after the blow to the head.

In the "New Theory" discussed here the ligature around the neck is applied first, then a blow to the head, then later the ligature has the handle attached to it and converted to a type of garrote which is the ultimate cause of death.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 02:13:25 AM
No one claims ownership of the flashlight.

Blunt object didn't damage the skin but it broke the bone underneath.

https://youtu.be/kBUQO2u-eD4?t=4305 First interview on CNN.

We are a loving family ...we need to know why this happened.

[To me it is important to remember that this WHY question is asked before Melinda and John Andrew are cleared.]

I felt their theory and my New Theory nearly merged at that point, where they discuss why John Ramsey said "We are a loving family ...we need to know why this happened".

That is subtle but is he admitting it was an in the family issue?  "We are a loving family ...we need to know why this happened [within the family]".

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 02:51:44 AM
The autopsy findings were reviewed by Dr. Werner Spitz a forensic pathologist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Spitz
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 22, 2019, 05:15:22 PM
In the second part of that documentary there does not appear to be any points that I strongly  disagree with.  That doesn't mean I agree with their opinions.
https://youtu.be/lpIB49V2izU  "The Case of: JonBenét Ramsey - Part 2"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 09:45:06 AM
We might get 1000 visitors in a day soon!  There is no way that I can keep on finding more clues, so that is something that can't be done. 
What will make the difference to the case? 

[Actual count for the day was 527.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 23, 2019, 09:52:38 AM
We might get 1000 visitors in a day soon!  There is no way that I can keep on finding more clues, so that is something that can't be done. 
What will make the difference to the case?
It's only a plague of pesky little botflies. They get everywhere, even on the Jeremy Bamber threads when there are usually only a dozen at the most.  Today it's swarming with 'em... 74 at the last count.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 09:59:57 AM
It's only a plague of pesky little botflies. They get everywhere, even on the Jeremy Bamber threads when there are usually only a dozen at the most.  Today it's swarming with 'em... 74 at the last count.

why are they coming and going then? 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
There were more pages pulled out of the pad than were used. 3 pages were used for the ransom note, and one for the practice note. From memory there were 7 pages ripped out of Patsy's pad, so what happened to the other 3 pages?  Were the pages seen by John Fernie not the well known ransom note but another note altogether?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 10:20:56 AM
Bob Enyart
Pastor
Description Bob Enyart is an American talk radio host and pastor of Denver Bible Church. In 1999, he bought nearly $16,000 worth of O. J. Simpson memorabilia at an auction benefiting the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Wikipedia

He has produced a video "Bob Enyart's JonBenet Ramsey Clue that Breaks the Case"   Is there something in there that goes beyond a man's understanding?

He is saying there was draft written then the note? https://youtu.be/_3l-g1J_rg8?t=591
He is accusing Patsy of killing Jonbenet https://youtu.be/_3l-g1J_rg8?t=690 

There are many factual errors in what he says:
1. Linda Arndt was not the only police officer at the scene. 
2.  The window in the basement can be opened from the basement.
3.  who would have known about the basement layout?
4.  Wrong about pineapple in the stomach.
5.  What is the story of the underwear?   https://youtu.be/_3l-g1J_rg8?t=1427
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 10:47:42 AM
From his website Bob Enyart says:
" Detectives found a partial draft of the ransom note in the home, and the legal pad on which the final ransom had been written on three of seven pages torn from the center of the pad. And although it may seem too obvious even to point out, realize that unlike in the JonBenet Ramsey murder:
- a kidnapper doesn't write the ransom note in the house
- a kidnapper doesn't write that he respects his victim's business
- a kidnapper doesn't molest the victim in the house
- a kidnapper doesn't kill the victim in the house
- a kidnapper doesn't hang out (writing and rewriting) after the victim is dead
- a kidnapper doesn't leave the victim behind in the house
- a kidnapper doesn't forget to call to arrange to get the ransom money
- a kidnapper doesn't break in on Christmas risking family stay overs
- a kidnapper doesn't put oversized underwear found in the house on the victim
- a kidnapper doesn't bring someone to the crime (3rd person's DNA on a stain), and
- a kidnapper certainly doesn't do ALL of the above.
A predator, likewise, doesn't break in to molest a child while the parents are home and he sure doesn't stop to write a ransom note. (And if it helps to think through these observations, replace the word kidnapper above with "intruder".)"

That might be true for a total outsider but what if the kidnapper was one of the older children?  Then all of the above reasons breakdown.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
Bob Enyart makes a big issue about this phrase out of the ransom note "The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested", that to me  could mean to take a power nap during the following day.  It doesn't have to mean that night.
Don't call the cops, get the money and have a rest, all these are done during the following day not that night.
https://kgov.com/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-clue-that-breaks-the-case

The panties.  This extract is not that similar to what he says in the video:
"The panties on her body were too large for JonBenet and with her long johns, contained a stain with male DNA which could not be linked to any house member but which was later linked, in 2008, to DNA on the waistband of the long johns that she was also wearing. (It is true of course that even new clothing can come with DNA present, but new clothes don't come with DNA in stains, as with JonBenet's clothing.)

   ·  Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughter’s corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdale's in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the exculpatory evidence, which she knew had been planted. (Recovery of such vital evidence occurred despite Boulder's untrustworthy and obstructionist district attorney running interference for the Ramseys, for example, by repeatedly denying search warrant applications and hindering investigators' standard efforts to obtain credit card and telephone records, etc.)"

Maybe I will see some questions and answers from Patsy -  I'm wanting to know more about the panties.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 11:30:27 AM
I find this one of the most unbelievable things - That John Ramsey did not get that basement window fixed.

https://youtu.be/Nz1fvPOdjO4  "Father of JonBenet Ramsey Recalls Finding 6-Year-Old’s Lifeless Body In Their Home"

Wouldn't a broken window like that turn the basement into a virtual refrigerator in the middle of winter.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 06:10:05 PM
There were more pages pulled out of the pad than were used. 3 pages were used for the ransom note, and one for the practice note. From memory there were 7 ages ripped out of Patsy's pad, so what happened to the other 3 pages.  Were the pages seen by John Fernie not the ransom note but another note altogether?
Another poster:
"there were actually 7 pages missing from the middle of the notepad."
My reply:
That is what I mean. Were there two ransom notes drawn up? It seems that the notes read by John Fernie could not have been the same notes read by Patsy before she made the telephone call.  The ransom note was never in the position John Fernie describes IMO.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 06:18:20 PM
The most bizarre clue in this case is the Santa Bear.

Without a doubt it is on the crime scene photos  on the second bed in JBR's room.
What I've heard so far
1.  John and Patsy did not know where it come from.
2.  The next day the Santa Bear is found missing.

It makes me wonder if the Santa Bear was not a gift from  the kidnapper(s).

Let's see what it says on the internet about the Santa Bear:
1. http://www.acandyrose.com/s-santa-bear-mystery.htm 
"Santa Bear Mystery  January 28, 1999

Unidentified Santa Bear found in Crime Scene Photo

Pam Paugh told "Inside Edition" 01-29-1999 that a note was in a small pouch attached to a teddy bear
Pam says the note was not alarming but that it was, "telling" and "a bit prophetic."
There was no note in the bear's pouch

LaDonna Graygo purchased the bear A prize JonBenet won as "Little Miss Christmas" Amerikids Pageant, Boulder Colorado December 14, 1996.

one comment on page reads: "This bear is just a harmless stuffed animal that nobody can remember where it came from. Big freakin' deal. What does all this mean? Does it mean "the killer" must have brought it in because no one can specifically recall this stuffed animal?" 

Well that is a possibility.  Was there a note left in the pocket of the bear as Pam Paugh is reported?

For what it is worth "Globe: Santa bear riddle in JonBenét murder

Ramseys claim Christmas toy is key to killer--but cops don't buy it --sources say

A CUDDLY white teddy bear dressed as Santa has become a key clue in the hunt for JonBenét Ramsey's killer sources reveal.

Friends of the Ramsey family say the soft toy was given to JonBenét--but they do not know by whom. It just turned up sitting on a bed in the 6-year-old's room after the family's Christmas party, two days before the murder.

In the days following the shocking crime, the Ramseys claimed the mysterious bear might have been used by the killer to make friends with JonBenét and even lure her to her death.

JonBenét's parents have told friends: "If the police find whoever brought in the bear, they'll find her killer," say insiders.

The sweet child was brutally battered and strangled by an intruder on Christmas Day, 1996.

But investigators believe the little bear is a red herring intended to take the heat off John and Patsy Ramsey, who remain under an umbrella of suspicion as a Boulder, Colo., grand jury looks into their daughter's slaying.

"The Ramseys have thrown up several smoke screens during the two-year investigation," says a source close to the investigation. "JonBenét's Santa bear could be just another one." Investigators hope to nail down who bought it. If the Ramseys ever stand trial for JonBenét's murder, police don't want the mysterious Santa bear causing suspicion that they have charged the wrong people.

The bear is white and wears a red outfit with a gold belt buckle.

Police have asked friends of the Ramseys if they remember seeing the toy at the family's Christmas party on Dec. 23, two days before JonBenét was killed. Did anybody take the little beauty aside and secretly give her the toy, they ask? "The investigators have been given a picture of the bear sitting on one of the beds in JonBenét's room. It's propped up between two pillows," says the source.

Insiders say the Ramseys told friends they believe it's possible the bear was given to JonBenét by Bill McReynolds, the lovable local who played Santa at the party at their home. They claim he was obsessed with their daughter.

But Bill's wife Janet McReynolds, who attended the party with her husband, tells GLOBE: "We didn't give JonBenét the bear. We simply passed out the gifts the Ramseys had previously wrapped for JonBenét and the other guests. It's a mystery to us."

By Joe Mullins and Craig Lewis"

The fact that the Santa Bear goes missing intensifies the mystery IMO.



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 23, 2019, 07:36:13 PM
"Pam Paugh, an aunt of JonBenet, said in an interview Friday that a small brown pouch attached to the bear contained a note.

The note was not alarming, but in view of the circumstances it was both "telling" and "a bit prophetic," Paugh told the TV show Inside Edition."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/toy-bear-may-be-jonbenet-clue/

What! When did Pam Paugh see the note to be able to read the note?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: jameson245 on November 24, 2019, 12:36:31 AM
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg  (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

I am looking at the first floor where the butler's kitchen goes toward the small lavatory and that bit makes no sense to me.  I have been in the house and as I remember it, there were a few steps up, a landing with the door to the lavatory straight ahead.  Turning to the right there was a closet on the right and then a few more steps up before the basement stairs appeared on the left.

Who made this drawing?  Can he make the revisions to get closer?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 07:06:32 AM
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)  (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

I am looking at the first floor where the butler's kitchen goes toward the small lavatory and that bit makes no sense to me.  I have been in the house and as I remember it, there were a few steps up, a landing with the door to the lavatory straight ahead.  Turning to the right there was a closet on the right and then a few more steps up before the basement stairs appeared on the left.

Who made this drawing?  Can he make the revisions to get closer?
The architect obviously got carried away using a thick Sharpie for artistic effect rather than accuracy.  Here's your man...

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-carl-404947aa (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-carl-404947aa)

This better plan might provide an answer to your puzzlement...
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 10:55:51 AM

I am looking at the first floor where the butler's kitchen goes toward the small lavatory and that bit makes no sense to me.  I have been in the house and as I remember it, there were a few steps up, a landing with the door to the lavatory straight ahead.  Turning to the right there was a closet on the right and then a few more steps up before the basement stairs appeared on the left.

Who made this drawing?  Can he make the revisions to get closer?

I don't know who made the above drawing but two people have described to me (on the internet) how one can go through the butlers kitchen up the shorter stairs into a small hall leading to the stairs to the basement.

I have no doubt that is 100% correct. It sounds as if you were able to connect the butler kitchen to the basement stairs, without having to go through the kitchen or the living room (i.e. the main parts to the house).

Whether or not there was a closet along this path is not that important, other than it provides an additional hiding place for an intruder.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 11:05:41 AM
The architect obviously got carried away using a thick Sharpie for artistic effect rather than accuracy.  Here's your man...

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-carl-404947aa (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-carl-404947aa)

This better plan might provide an answer to your puzzlement...

That plan shows the door into the kitchen OK, but it doesn't have the detail of how one can go from the Butler kitchen ("Lower hall") to the "stairs to the basement".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 12:51:19 PM
That plan shows the door into the kitchen OK, but it doesn't have the detail of how one can go from the Butler kitchen ("Lower hall") to the "stairs to the basement".
Yes, you're right.  Both drawings leave a lot to be desired.  Photo looking down from the spiral staircase area to the Butler's Pantry and three angled steps beyond which apparently lead to the basement staircase...
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 05:36:36 PM
Yes, you're right.  Both drawings leave a lot to be desired.  Photo looking down from the spiral staircase area to the Butler's Pantry and three angled steps beyond which apparently lead to the basement staircase...

What I'm amazed about is how we are establishing a relatively unknown fact 23 years later.
Who knew it was possible to escape from the basement via that "secret" passage on or before the morning of the 26th Dec 1996?

John Ramsey continues to make the point the intruders were in the house long enough to find this out for themselves on the night.

The Boulder police don't alert us to the possibility of an alternative escape route.   No floor plan shows the route clearly.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 05:39:41 PM
Yes, you're right.  Both drawings leave a lot to be desired.  Photo looking down from the spiral staircase area to the Butler's Pantry and three angled steps beyond which apparently lead to the basement staircase...
The other important thing is halfway along that passage is the door that was found open on more than one occasion.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 05:54:09 PM

What I'm amazed about is how we are establishing a relatively unknown fact 23 years later.
Who knew it was possible to escape from the basement via that "secret" passage on or before the morning of the 26th Dec 1996?

John Ramsey continues to make the point the intruders were in the house long enough to find this out for themselves on the night.

The Boulder police don't alert us to the possibility of an alternative escape route.   No floor plan shows the route clearly.
Unless you can root out undiscovered plans or photos of that area from somewhere on the net.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 06:20:15 PM
You've probably seen and posted this video before... https://youtu.be/oNVnldurADc?t=1156 (https://youtu.be/oNVnldurADc?t=1156)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Unless you can root out undiscovered plans or photos of that area from somewhere on the net.
I must admit I haven't looked at all the floor plans yet.

The main floor  - ground floor.

the butler pantry was half a floor lower than the ground floor, so the section must have been sloping.
The basement is one floor lower than the ground floor.

The steps at the end of the Butler Pantry take you up, less height than you have to descend from the spiral staircase end.   So there must have been a floor area half way between the pantry and the kitchen.

Second floor were the children's bedrooms.
Third floor were the parents bedroom bathrooms etc.

So above the ground floor it is less complicated.

Kitchen, living room etc  = level zero.
Toilet and washroom  down stairs towards basement = level -0.25 (a quarter of a level down)
Butler pantry = -0.5 (half a level down)
Then the basement = -1  (full level down)

So in my way of thinking that house had 6 different floor levels.

from lowest
1. Basement,
2. butler pantry,
3. toilets and washroom,
4. Kitchen on main floor etc.,
5. Children's bedrooms,
6. parent's bedrooms.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
You've probably seen and posted this video before... https://youtu.be/oNVnldurADc?t=1156 (https://youtu.be/oNVnldurADc?t=1156)
Yes I had thanks.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 06:47:44 PM
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

At the Northeast corner of the floor plan it shows a toilet and washroom with no access doorways.  This is a problem IMO.

In the video tour of the house there is no mention of a toilet up from these Eastern end stairs.  Maybe the floor plan diagram shows a toilet that wasn't actually built.
Watch it from https://youtu.be/oNVnldurADc?t=1156
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 07:06:49 PM
Same problem here too.  No door access to toilet or closet at the NE corner of the plan.
(https://i2.wp.com/www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ramsey-family-floorplan-first-floor.gif?w=810&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px)

Closet is not a word used regularly in New Zealand.

"closet
noun
1.
NORTH AMERICAN
a tall cupboard or wardrobe with a door, used for storage."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 07:10:31 PM
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/57aa31bb29687fc245f9610c/1470771645683/TS-3+C.jpg)

At the Northeast corner of the floor plan it shows a toilet and washroom with no access doorways.  This is a problem IMO.
Yes I know, but the plan is badly drawn anyway.  As I said before, the technician Nolan Carl has mistakenly placed walls where door openings should be, and got carried away creating a pretty, though inaccurate, three-dimensional drawing.  Most likely done using a 3D computer program such as AutoCAD or Revit, rather than hand-drawn.

You can just make out what should be a door opening to the toilet, but is obliterated by a wall which shouldn't be there...
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 07:14:16 PM
OK found a plan that shows access to the toilet NE corner of the building but it is still lacking detail of how to access those toilets from the Butler's pantry area.
(https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f227/18218d1213072009-jonben-t-ramsey-floor-plans-floor1.jpg)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 07:23:55 PM
LOL... that's the same one I uploaded in an earlier post.   But even that is inaccurate where the steps up from the Butler's Pantry/Lower Hall on the right are supposed to link with a landing (4) which then leads downstairs to the Basement.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 24, 2019, 07:37:51 PM
LOL... that's the same one I uploaded in an earlier post.   But even that is inaccurate where the steps up from the Butler's Pantry/Lower Hall on the right are supposed to link with a landing (4) which then leads downstairs to the Basement.
You are right.  Previously I was concentrating on the  Western side access to the kitchen.

We also have an issue that John Fernie read some sort of note through the "patio door", yet at no time does anyone determine which door was the "patio door".  No ground floor plans have a patio, or a "patio door" marked on them.

We also have an issue that John Fernie read some sort of note through the "patio door", yet at no time does anyone determine which door was the "patio door".  No ground floor plans have a patio, or a "patio door" marked on them.

This article mentions patio "Instead, they claim baseball fan Burke may have bashed his sister to death with a pair of bats found in the yard far from their usual place on the patio, or with his father's golf clubs, which were stashed away in a cupboard." https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11722756

there was also the case of the suspected arson at the house https://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon100.htm

It mentions the patio.  "He had "basically spent the night on the Ramsey property," much of it on the patio on the south side of the house, the report said. Thompson told police he lit paper on fire and pushed it through the mail slot"

So we know the patio was on the south side which is the same side as Fernie described it as. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 24, 2019, 07:54:25 PM
You are right.  Previously I was concentrating on the  Western side access to the kitchen.

We also have an issue that John Fernie read some sort of note through the "patio door", yet at no time does anyone determine which door was the "patio door".  No ground floor plans have a patio, or a "patio door" marked on them.
I think patio door in Fernie's testament is just a generic description for an outside door of any type.  It doesn't necesarily have to have a patio outside either.

Who on earth designed such a ludicrous house?!!!  I'm off for now, it's making my head spin...

http://www.brand-google.com/jonbenet-ramsey-house-floor-plan/ramsey-house-for-sale-again-page-10/ (http://www.brand-google.com/jonbenet-ramsey-house-floor-plan/ramsey-house-for-sale-again-page-10/)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 07:40:55 AM
I think patio door in Fernie's testament is just a generic description for an outside door of any type.  It doesn't necesarily have to have a patio outside either.

Who on earth designed such a ludicrous house?!!!  I'm off for now, it's making my head spin...

http://www.brand-google.com/jonbenet-ramsey-house-floor-plan/ramsey-house-for-sale-again-page-10/ (http://www.brand-google.com/jonbenet-ramsey-house-floor-plan/ramsey-house-for-sale-again-page-10/)
whereto now?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 25, 2019, 08:40:57 AM
whereto now?
Not sure, Rob.  You know loads more than I do on this.  Work to do daytime anyway, so will have to leave it until evenings.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 09:50:39 AM
Going back to continue to review Perfect Murder Perfect Town (PMPT):

"The photograph showed the spot where a protective metal plate on the door jamb had fallen off months before the murder. She had seen the plate become looser until one day it fell off, revealing the same marks that she now saw in the photograph. Hoffmann-Pugh had taken the plate to Patsy, who wasn’t concerned enough to have it replaced. The detached plate had sat on a shelf in the hallway near the kitchen. " 

Can we determine which door this was?  What about the photo?

A reply "no - - the butler door was easy to jimmie open, the damaged door was on the south side of the house where the kids played.

Floor plan: (https://i2.wp.com/www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ramsey-family-floorplan-first-floor.gif?w=810&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px)

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 05:27:03 PM
Going back to continue to review Perfect Murder Perfect Town (PMPT):

"The photograph showed the spot where a protective metal plate on the door jamb had fallen off months before the murder. She had seen the plate become looser until one day it fell off, revealing the same marks that she now saw in the photograph. Hoffmann-Pugh had taken the plate to Patsy, who wasn’t concerned enough to have it replaced. The detached plate had sat on a shelf in the hallway near the kitchen. " 

Can we determine which door this was?  What about the photo?
Patsy and John seem to be getting their priorities wrong:
1.  Broken Window in basement not fixed - don't they have glaziers in Boulder.
2. Broken door left unfixed for the want of a couple of screws.
3.  Spare key going missing.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 05:45:11 PM
Patsy and John seem to be getting their priorities wrong:
1.  Broken Window in basement not fixed - don't they have glaziers in Boulder.
2. Broken door left unfixed for the want of a couple of screws.
3.  Spare key going missing.
Does a list of errors like that add up to child abuse?   
There was not setting the burglar alarm because it would go off too often.

The Grand Jury were going to indict John and Patsy for child abuse and in an interview John seems to put that down to sloppiness of the home security.
I can't recall anyone being charged with child abuse caused by the lack of home maintenance!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 05:46:46 PM
Where are the bots when you need them?

"Robittybob1 and 0 Guests are viewing this board."
It has been a quiet day on the forum.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 07:18:59 PM
Now this was a revelation moment when I read this.

"10 The worst thing that can ever happen to you is to lose a child. It becomes a hole that can never be filled. After Beth died, John didn’t have a lot of pictures of Melinda and John Andrew around—just photos of Beth, even in his bathroom. He’d written a poem to her called “Daddy’s Little Girl” that he kept on his dresser where he put his watch and loose change every night. Right where he could see it every day. Twice a day, really. I remember some of that poem. It was a “Your First Steps” kind of thing. He wrote, “And the best thing of the day is to look after daddy’s little girl . . .” and “You are growing older with woman looks that are now clear.” So John Ramsey had already lost one child. I cannot imagine anyone who has gone through that pain to intentionally inflict it on himself a second time. I cannot imagine it. Just cannot. His subconscious knew that pain. It is the worst pain ever. His subconscious would have stopped him. Whoever struck that blow, it wasn’t John Ramsey. —Linda Wilcox"
Page 557 PMPT.

Who is Linda Wilcox?  "Linda Wilcox
Former Ramsey Housekeeper
Hired 1993, Left September 4, 1995"
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-wilcox.htm

A shrine for one of the kids but not the others.  That could be enough to cause jealousy and anger toward him.

"An interesting peek into family dynamics as told by Linda Wilcox"
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/57u2b2/an_interesting_peek_into_family_dynamics_as_told/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 07:46:28 PM
Even the experts have trouble agreeing.

"Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenét’s small intestine was in near-perfect condition—it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed. Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenét had eaten it an hour and a half or two hours before she died, most likely after the family returned home that night. However, one Boulder medical examiner stated it could have been eaten as early as 4:30 P.M.—before the Ramseys left their home for a dinner at the Whites. If JonBenét had eaten the pineapple after 10:30 P.M., that made the approximate time of death not earlier than midnight. Next, the investigators reviewed JonBenét’s various injuries.A blow to the head can result in bleeding inside the skull, which can cause death immediately or sometime later. Microscopic examination of the area near the brain where the bleeding occurred can help determine how long before death the injury took place. But was it the garroting or the head injury that had caused JonBenét’s death? The experts agreed that either would have been fatal. According to the specialists, her head injury had likely come first. Since a six-year-old’s skull is more resilient than an adult’s, the blow must have been of tremendous force. The injury to her head was fully developed, which meant that her heart had beaten for some time after the blow. Also, the bruise to her brain did not immediately shut down

559

all activity in JonBenét’s body. However, the strangulation by the noose had created a deep furrow in her neck, which acted like a tourniquet and caused complete interruption of the blood flow to and from her brain. The specialists estimated that ten to forty-five minutes might have elapsed between the blow to her head and the cessation of JonBenét’s vital functions, which was probably caused by the noose being pulled tight with the help of the stick attached to the cord. It was possible, however, that the strangulation occurred first, then while in progress the blow to the head took place, and the continual strangulation caused JonBenét’s death. The conjecture that the blow to JonBenét’s head took place first fit the scenario that the police considered most likely: that JonBenét had been struck on the head with the heavy flashlight in or near the kitchen. The police had found it on a kitchen counter. Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenét’s vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards. Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator’s finger before he or she penetrated JonBenét vaginally. It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her. If the cellulose did, in fact, come from the paintbrush, then most probably the “garrote” had been assembled before JonBenét was violated. Since there was some evidence of vaginal bleeding, it was also logical to assume that the child had already been strangled but was not yet dead when she was penetrated. Consistent with penetration of a female child of JonBenét’s age, her hymen was torn. In such a case, the edges are pulled away and recede quickly, creating a visible difference between a torn and an intact hymen. Photographs of her injured hymen taken at the autopsy

560

indicated to some experts a recent tear, fresh bleeding, and no healing. Logic suggested that JonBenét had been penetrated almost concurrently with her death. There remained the question whether JonBenét had also been penetrated—that is, sexually abused—previously. Here the experts disagreed. Dr. David Jones said the child’s vagina showed a history of abuse, since the cellulose dated from an old injury. Dr. Spitz, however, said there was no clear indication of prior penetration and that the cellulose dated from the injury that had taken place around her time of death.

I’d be driving someplace and I would ruminate over it. It’s not like you can say, “I’ve done the autopsy. I’ve submitted my report. We’ve done our thing. It’s not my problem anymore.” It’s an unsolved case I can’t dismiss, because there is a possibility that I’m going to be involved in it again. I know I’m going to testify. I try to theorize how things occurred. What are the triggers? I’d come to the point that I was real clear on it and then, the next day or a week later, I’d think about it again and wouldn’t be very clear on what happened. I probably have come up with a variety of different scenarios at different times. I don’t think at this point, right now, I am that clear about what happened. —John Meyer"

From that my impression that the neck ligature being applied first, then blow to the head, then final strangulation still can be justified.

Were the statements about the pineapple really in the autopsy report?  That bit was news to me!  The blue portion is the direct quote from Meyer, the earlier part seems more of an analysis by the author.  Did he get it right?

Full text of the autopsy report is located https://www.denverpost.com/1996/08/13/text-of-jonbenet-autopsy-report/?fbclid=IwAR022NCe01UpxzSF2yW4jBO0SvzOjT36wB_aJz3xx0e37pUeMHiMjrxoQ9I

In the report it says:
"G.I. Tract: The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-11cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastic mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present."

and that is vastly different to the above report:
"Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenét’s small intestine was in near-perfect condition—it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed. Based on the condition of the pineapple in her intestine, the experts estimated that JonBenét had eaten it an hour and a half or two hours before she died, most likely after the family returned home that night."

Is there still something we don't know?   It appears someone is lying.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 25, 2019, 07:59:38 PM
Another topic that needs discussing is Burke's pocketknife.
 
"Then there was the issue of where Burke’s red pocket knife had been kept prior to the murder; it was found a few yards from JonBenét’s body." PMPT

"[Although] Hoffmann-Pugh never saw the knife again… it resurfaced [in the evidence inventory] following the 10-day police search [of the Ramsey home]…Specifically, Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke’s knife on a countertop near a sink just down a basement corridor from the [wine cellar] where JonBenét’s body was found."
https://shakedowntitle.com/2016/12/07/jonbenet-ramsey-case-insights-1-burkes-knife/

It appears the distance between the body and the knife gets closer as time goes on.
"At that point, only the police knew that Burke’s Swiss Army knife had been found next to JonBenet’s body."  https://nypost.com/1999/05/13/jealous-brother-9-killed-jonbenet-in-a-rage-claims-tab/

I don't think there are sufficient clues to say if anyone used Burke's knife in the commission of this crime.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 26, 2019, 03:16:32 AM
I have revised some posts pages 1 - 16 inclusive.   Happy reading. 225 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 01:21:45 AM
Another poster:
"there were actually 7 pages missing from the middle of the notepad."
My reply:
That is what I mean. Were there two ransom notes drawn up? It seems that the notes read by John Fernie could not have been the same notes read by Patsy before she made the telephone call.  The ransom note was never in the position John Fernie describes IMO.

James Fitzgerald forensic linguistic profiler says there were two versions of the ransom note https://youtu.be/Ik1M73eLEds?t=209  JonBenét Ramsey case: CWD examines ransom note - Crime Watch Daily
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 01:35:50 AM
This information is not generally known that there were two ransom notes written out. https://youtu.be/Ik1M73eLEds?t=204 I hardly believe that except that there are repeated claims of a second practice note.

From the video that is being said to Jim Clemente the former FBI profiler. So two sources now point to a second ransom note.. But if the second note was the one read by John Fernie how did it end up in a back room of the house. What does back room of the house mean anyway?

"James Fitzgerald worked as a supervisory special agent and forensic linguistic profiler for the FBI at the time of the Ramsey case. He served in the bureau's Behavioral Analysis Unit, which became the inspiration for the CBS procedural drama, Criminal Minds.
Fitzgerald first came to prominence as a forensic linguistic prior to the Ramsey case. "
https://www.bustle.com/.../184442-who-is-james-fitzgerald...

I believe there were two full versions of the ransom note. There were two versions of the ransom note 
 One was crumpled up and found in a back room. I wonder if the back room was the Butler's kitchen.

This quote from "JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" just about confirms it:

"The Ransom Notepad

"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."

"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25."

"Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."

"Furthermore, the ink bleedthrough discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been writtenon page 25 and been discarded. Two possible practice notes and one real one covering three pages led me to believe that the killer had spend more time in the house composing the ransom note than we originally thought."

"But even more significant, it seemed clear that whoever wrote it was unafraid of being caught in the house. We never found the missing pages."

JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 06:03:27 PM
John Fernie does not claim he read the ransom note.

Now that I propose there was another note left, the second note may have been written in larger writing that made it clearer and easily to read through a glass door at 6:00 AM in the morning.
I think it would be physically impossible to read the ransom note through a glass door.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 07:40:51 PM
John Fernie does not claim he read the ransom note.

Now that I propose there was another note left, the second note may have been written in larger writing that made it clearer and easily to read through a glass door at 6:00 AM in the morning.
I think it would be physically impossible to read the ransom note through a glass door.
"Transcript Testimony of John Fernie" http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm  8 pages of links to the court transcripts.

John Fernie does not say who talked to him prior to going the Ramseys. (page 3)
John Fernie does not quote any part of the note he saw to confirm it was the same as the ransom note.
In testimony he says he saw "a piece of paper"  not 3 pieces of paper laid side by side on the floor.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 10:48:39 PM
What is known about John Fernie?

1.  http://pricekscience.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/0/0/11007001/jonbent_ramsey.pdf  " The note suggested that the ransom collection would be monitored and JonBenét would be returned as soon as the money was obtained. John Ramsey made arrangements for the availability of the ransom, which a friend, John Fernie, picked up that morning from a local bank." 

IMO Not many say the money was taken to the Ramsey house. 


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 27, 2019, 10:54:57 PM
Hello - I have just found Patsy Ramsey referring to a room as the "Patio Room"

"PR: And I uh, screamed for John. He was up in our bedroom still and he came running down and uh, I told him that there was a note that said she had been kidnapped. And uh, uh, I think he, he said, I said, ‘What should I do. What should I do,’ or something and he said, ‘Call the police,’ and I think somewhere, I remember I said something about, you know, check Burke or something and I think he ran back and checked burke and I ran back down the stairs and then he came downstairs. He was just in his underwear and he uh, took the note and I remember him being down hunched on the floor read, with all three pages out like that reading it and uh, and he said, ‘Call 911’ or ‘Call the police,’ or something and then I did. I called them and uh, and then I called the Whites and the Fernies and told them that she had been kidnapped or said come over quickly or something and they came over and the policeman came and uh, then the Whites and the Fernies were there and uh . . .Oh, I think the policeman was asking, you know, he kind of like, I think he kind of got us (inaudible) in the sun room or something.
TT: Okay.
PR: That little room, patio room. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .off the living room and trying to calm us down or something and uh, I think, I think John uh, by that time read and, that they wanted money or something and, and uh, he, I think he had called uh, Rod Westmoreland, our friend and our stock broker in Atlanta."


On the floor plans the little room off the living room is called the "solarium"  Has this room got a glass pane door?
(https://i2.wp.com/www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ramsey-family-floorplan-first-floor.gif?w=810&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 AM
But that seems like the most unlikely place for someone to come and read a note.  That room is not near the kitchen as John Fernie had described it.  - the problem still persists.

It isn't even computing in Patsy's brain as she is trying to recount the story:


"TT: Okay. Do you remember which ones you called first. Who called. Who did you call first?
PR: I, I don’t exactly. I think I called the Whites first, but I can’t remember exactly.
TT: Who did you talk to at the White’s house?
PR: Pricilla, I think.
TT: Okay. Do you remember what you told her about what was going on?
PR: Not, I mean, I was just hysterical. I think I, I probably told her that she had been, JonBenet had been kidnapped. And uh, to come over and . . .
TT: Then you called the Fernies.
PR: Fernies.
TT: And who did you talk to at the Fernie house?
PR: Uh, I think I talked to John. I think I talked to John.
TT: Okay.
PR: (Inaudible) I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I think John Fernie got there first, before Barbara, but I don’t remember who answered the phone really.
TT: Okay. So John runs upstairs, gets dressed. You’re already dressed. Who’s the first person that comes in the front door. Who’s the first person that comes in the front door. Who’s the first person that makes it over to your house.
PR: Uh, well. The policeman.
TT: Okay. The policeman arrives.
TT: Who, who all was, where was John at the time that the officer arrived?
PR: Oh, I don’t I don’t know. I remember I, I don’t know where he was. I walked out onto the front step there and I was just, I was just kind of out of it. I was hysterical."

You can see the problem she is having.  If she talked to the Whites first then to Fernies how did John Fernie get there quite so quickly?  OK she is hysterical but the laws of physics say that it is impossible.

It needs to be investigated. 



Patsy says "PR: It seemed like they got there pretty quick."   

Fleet and Priscilla,
John and Barbara Fernie.
Linda Hoffman house keeper.

And where is the ransom note?

"TT: Okay. And the note was on, the note was on the floor and John was reading it when you called the police. Is that right?
PR: When I was calling the police. Yeah, he, it was on the floor there in that back hall.
TT: Okay. And you don’t recall who laid the note down there.
PR: Right."



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2019, 02:52:55 AM
There certainly is something wrong about the situation.


They were going to catch the plane to fly to Michigan at 7:00 it was about 5:45  when she came down for coffee. 
She didn't seem to know where all the gift wrapped presents for the other two older kids were.

Patsy seems surprised that some of the presents were in the basement.  If they had such a tight schedule you'd think all the presents would be in one place.


"PR: We were going to the lake the 26th.
TT: Um hum.
PR: Michigan. And I had Melinda’s and Stewart’s and John Andrew’s.
TT: Okay. Those were the presents that were down in the cellar still?
PR: Uh. There were probably were some down there.
TT: Okay.
PR: I don’t know when you mean down still.
TT: Um, on the 26th there was still some presents downstairs.
PR: When, uh, I was, if there were I don’t remember, I had them kind of. . .
TT: Kind of all over the place?
PR: . . .you know, all over, yeah. And I had, uh, I know I had a (Lego?) set down there that I had gotten for Burke’s birthday which was in January, so I. . ."

TT seems to speak for Patsy a bit too much IMO.

I tend to think this might actually be a clue.  Were those presents taken down to the basement  by Jonbenet and the kidnapper?  Is this how she was enticed to go away from her bedroom?

Patsy's answers seem so uncertain on these points.

She was asked about how the other kids felt about having Christmas on the 26th.    "They had their toys there" was she talking about the grown adults?

"ST: And was everybody on this same page about going to Charlevoix as far as uh, willing and wanting to go. There was no dissention in the ranks that, I don’t want to go or she doesn’t want to go. Everybody was looking forward to this trip?
PR: Well, I mean, we were. I wasn’t real crazy about going cause I just thought it was cramming a lot of stuff in there, you know, I told John I didn’t really want to go. I’d rather, cause, Christmas, going to Charlevoix, then going to, it just seemed like a lot, you know, but then we decided as a family to go and, you know, been looking forward to it. We never had Christmas up there before so I called the florist and had them put up lights and a wreath and flowers and all that cause Melinda and Stewart were coming up and John Andrew.
ST: How did the kid feel about, I mean, Christmas is the 25th, they just get all the presents, get everything opened up, get to playing and all of a sudden the 26th they’re, they got to take off to Charlevoix. How do . . .
PR: Oh, the little kids?
ST: Yeah, how did they feel about that?
PR: Oh, they, they would have loved it. They love theta cause they have toys up there, you know, they love it up there."

I think the idea of having a second Christmas so far away, and for such a short period, would have seemed more like punishment to the the older kids.  I wonder what was going on behind the scenes.

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2013/01/ramsey-police-interview-no-analysis.html

The interview date is noted:  "... for the record, uh, let me state today is Wednesday, April 30. 1997."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2019, 03:04:00 AM
Did the Fernies still have the key to the Ramsey's house?

""PR (Coughing, response unknown) Excuse me. Uh, my cleaning lady had a key, Linda. The Barnhills I believe actually gave two keys, because I had given her one and she couldn’t find it. I think I gave them another one? Uh, Barbara Fernie had one at one time, I’m not sure. I think I might have gotten that back from her. Priscilla had one I believe. Uh ..."

There is a bit of uncertainty there.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Myster on November 28, 2019, 06:39:59 AM
Hello - I have just found Patsy Ramsey referring to a room as the "Patio Room"

"PR: And I uh, screamed for John. He was up in our bedroom still and he came running down and uh, I told him that there was a note that said she had been kidnapped. And uh, uh, I think he, he said, I said, ‘What should I do. What should I do,’ or something and he said, ‘Call the police,’ and I think somewhere, I remember I said something about, you know, check Burke or something and I think he ran back and checked burke and I ran back down the stairs and then he came downstairs. He was just in his underwear and he uh, took the note and I remember him being down hunched on the floor read, with all three pages out like that reading it and uh, and he said, ‘Call 911’ or ‘Call the police,’ or something and then I did. I called them and uh, and then I called the Whites and the Fernies and told them that she had been kidnapped or said come over quickly or something and they came over and the policeman came and uh, then the Whites and the Fernies were there and uh . . .Oh, I think the policeman was asking, you know, he kind of like, I think he kind of got us (inaudible) in the sun room or something.
TT: Okay.
PR: That little room, patio room. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .off the living room and trying to calm us down or something and uh, I think, I think John uh, by that time read and, that they wanted money or something and, and uh, he, I think he had called uh, Rod Westmoreland, our friend and our stock broker in Atlanta."


On the floor plans the little room off the living room is called the "solarium"  Has this room got a glass pane door?
(https://i2.wp.com/www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ramsey-family-floorplan-first-floor.gif?w=810&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px)

Yes, here... https://youtu.be/ZQV-amyVl7c?t=4 (https://youtu.be/ZQV-amyVl7c?t=4)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2019, 10:46:43 AM
"Transcript Testimony of John Fernie" http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm  8 pages of links to the court transcripts.

John Fernie does not say who talked to him prior to going the the Ramseys. (page 3)
John Fernie does not quote any part of the note he saw to confirm it was the same as the ransom note.
In testimony he says he saw "a piece of paper"  not 3 pieces of paper laid side by side on the floor.
Look at this acandyrose had told us all along that another note had been found!
http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm

"John Fernie: "My recollection is that later in the day, when we were waiting for phone calls from the supposed kidnappers, we were sitting in the back room with a detective and trying to figure out what the note meant. And there was a copy of the note. I don't know if it was the note, or a copy of the note, actually."

During the testimony, John Fernie stated he was not given a copy of the note."

Does he mean a different handwritten note, or a photocopy of the original ransom note?

That comes from the "Deposition of John Fernie - actual transcript"  found here https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/dzjmr0/deposition_of_john_fernie_actual_transcript/

For the greater part of the day Linda Arndt was the only detective there.  Does she mention discussing the ransom note?
a copy of her notes is found here https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/linda-arndt-jan-8-1997-report.pdf

Page 10 of the document tells us about Linda Arndt discussing the copy of the ransom note.

 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 28, 2019, 05:38:06 PM
Are we seeing evidence of corruption here? 

I still can't get over John Fernie saying he was asked to go to the  Ramsey's at the behest of a Ramsey family member!  I must get the exact quote.
Behest - I don't think that means a direct request.  It seems a very old fashioned word TBH.

http://www.acandyrose.com/06132001fernietestimony.htm

Google definition:
behest


noun LITERARY
a person's orders or command."

So a behest can be passed down a chain of command.  Patsy may have rang Barbara and Barbara rang John and gave him the order to go to the Ramsey's house.

But surely if he had that order direct from Patsy he would say Patsy, so why did he say "family member".  "Family member" includes the likes of Burke, Melinda and John Andrew.

The actual situation was that the lawyer was asking him the question:
From https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/dzjmr0/deposition_of_john_fernie_actual_transcript/

"Q. (By Mr. Lozow) Mr. Fernie, did you have occasion to come to the Ramsey home in the early hours, I believe December 26th, at the behest of one of the members of the Ramsey family?

A. Yes."

Fernie says "yes" but is not asked who that person was giving the order or the person passing on the order to John Fernie, but it is accepted as originating from (behest) "one of the members of the Ramsey family".

The time of that behest is not made clear either.  Saying "early hours of the 26th" could be anytime after midnight through to 6:00 AM when he says he arrived at the Ramseys.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 12:12:58 AM
Are we seeing evidence of corruption here?  It would have to be something said in a conversation that really doesn't make sense.
Every thing I know about this case will be on this site.  Maybe that will be enough to keep me safe.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 12:24:56 AM
This poster just about mirrors my thoughts. 
There is just too much unknown to break that mystery.  We'll just have to keep it in mind and maybe we'll stumble across the answer one day.

"PMPT pb, pg 44:

"At 6:00 A.M. the telephone awakened Cliff Gaston. It was Patsy Ramsey. Priscilla took the call, and within minutes the White's were dressed and on their way to the Ramsey's house. When they arrived, the police and John Fernie were already there."

By car the Whites live 2 minutes away from the Ramseys.

By car the Fernies live 23 minutes away from the Ramseys.

Patsy had called 911 at 5:52 A.M. She then immediately called the Fernies and the Whites in that order.

John Fernie, a developer, lives at the Shanahan Ridge development on Table Mesa, below the foothills. How did John Fernie, after taking the call from Patsy, manage to get dressed, drive to the Ramsey house, and get there before Fleet White?

Was John Fernie already on the road when Patsy called him? Had he taken the call by cell phone? And if so, WHY was he on the road so early in the morning on the day after Christmas. Had he already been to the Ramsey house earlier that morning -- perhaps to retrieve Little Luke from the disaster unfolding at the Ramseys house and take him home, and was on his way back to the Ramsey's when the call from Patsy came in notifying him she had called the cops and it was okay for him to return? Or was he already on the road for some other reason?

(Those missing cell phone records for the month of December would have likely told one helluva interesting story.)"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 12:33:25 AM
One poster even proposed that Patsy had called 911 twice. 

"I remember there were 2 calls placed (I think this was mentioned in a deposition, but cannot recall who's it was). The first where Patsy calls, says "Oh my God" hangs up and then calls right back. I know I read this, even commented on it at the time. I will try to find it." 

Is that true Kim Archuletta? 
This certainly could happen in the "New Theory".  Did the kidnapper alert the emergency system even before Patsy made her call?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 01:16:11 AM
""Fernie seemed to recall that someone, John Ramsey he thought, had said that the doors to the home had been checked the previous evening and that all had been dead-bolted and securely locked. Ramsey had checked the doors again that morning to be certain that JonBenét had not gotten out of the house. At one point that morning, the time uncertain, but as police were processing the scene, Fernie reported that a draft was coming through the house, and he located the source: the door on the north side of the house by the Butler Pantry was standing open, and he shut it." from "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?" by A. James Kolar"

Bloody odd to say the least.  How any door could be found open after the police and JR had checked.   OK I explain that by saying at least one of the kidnappers was still on the site when the police first arrived and left afterwards.
How do you explain it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 10:40:21 AM
From https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/dzjmr0/deposition_of_john_fernie_actual_transcript/

The lawyer Mr. Lozow is questioning John Fernie:
"Q. Okay. Now the document that you picked up, did that prove to be what has been designated as the Ramsey kidnapping note, or the note involved in this homicide investigation?"

Had Fernie ever claimed he picked up the document he had seen moments before on the other side of the door?

Not only that but that question seems to be asking which note this was.  Was it this one OR that one?

Was the document you saw (or picked up)
a. was it the document that "has been designated as the Ramsey kidnapping note",
OR
b. was it the document that has been designated "the note involved in this homicide investigation"?

Was this really a choice between two items?

There was no answer from Fernie to this question as Fernie says he was on the other side of the window.

But in his testimony he seems to have forgotten he has been admitted into the house.  " And so I ran around to the front of the house and knocked on the door and was let in."  He was now "in", so wouldn't he now go and pick up the note he had previously seen through the glass door?

In my opinion he would.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 11:29:21 AM
https://youtu.be/2q8YkikAoSk?t=729  Takes a tour from the Butler Kitchen into the stairs going to the basement.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 11:32:02 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a7djoe/10_days_of_jonbenetthe_open_butler_door/

A study of the Butlers Kitchen external door and how it is found open.  This may not be correct, but it gives a good basis to work from.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 06:36:55 PM
It has been very interesting, seeing how from the set of inconsistencies noted early on, there gradually developed a comprehensive "New Theory" suggesting the possible involvement of the elder two children in some sort of plot to disrupt the plans to have a second Christmas in Charlevoix.

Maybe Patsy was right when she said to Pam, "we didn't plan for this to happen" or whatever the words were.

Look I'm taking a break for a while, but I might add a little more everyday  but it won't be the massive effort as of late, unless something massive turns up out of the blue.
Thanking all of you who have read the thread, particularly those who have attempted to read and follow the links from the beginning. 
If anyone has done the whole thread and all the links you might well be the perpetrator, for who else  would torture themselves voluntarily like that! 

For those who don't know what I talking about:
https://kgov.com/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-clue-that-breaks-the-case

From the article called "The Clue that Breaks the Ramsey Case"
"On Dec. 27, 1996 Patsy Ramsey, being exhausted and lying down, reached up and touched the face of a friend, Pam Griffin, the woman who had made JonBenet's pageant costumes. Griffin thought Patsy was delirious when she asked, “Couldn’t you fix this for me?” as though a sewing machine could bring back her daughter.  She then remembers Patsy saying, “We didn’t mean for this to happen” and Griffin got the definite feeling that in her weakened condition, Patsy had revealed that she knew who the killer was."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 29, 2019, 08:30:45 PM
someone has suggested this was the original source of that information:
https://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon0216.htm an article by Karen Auge a Denver Post Staff Writer

"- On Dec. 27, Pam Griffin found a telephone message from Patsy's sister Polly. "Patsy needs you right now." Griffin was the seamstress who made JonBenét's pageant costumes and was Patsy's confidante about beauty pageants. At the Boulder home of John and Barbara Fernie, friends of the Ramseys', Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy's skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it. She then told her to lie down. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam's advice.

Patsy then touched Pam's face. "Couldn't you fix this for me?" she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. "Patsy said something like, "We didn't mean for that to happen'," Pam would say later. Pam couldn't say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say.

But I have a feeling the source is even earlier than that too for the above article quotes a book "Perfect Murder Perfect Town"  ""Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," is the latest work by Schiller, who previously was best known for being the author of "American Tragedy: The Uncensored Story of the Simpson Defense.""
Maybe Schiller is the source.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 12:07:12 AM
from PMPTit says:
"On the afternoon of December 27, when Pam Griffin got home from her interview with Detective Mason, she found a telephone message from Patsy’s sister Polly. “Patsy needs you right now!” Polly had left directions to the Fernies’ house. At the Fernies’, Pam and Kristine found that Patsy was overdosing on Valium. She’d been taking the powerful tranquilizer every few hours and had probably lost track of the amount. Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy’s skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it. Later that afternoon, Kristine and Pam sat on either side of Patsy, holding her hands. “You know,” Patsy said quietly to Pam, as if she were telling someone for the first time, “they’ve killed my baby.” Pam noticed that Patsy used the word they. “You need to brush your hair,” Pam told her. “You need to lie down a little bit.” But Patsy stood up to greet each new person who arrived, and as she did, tears streamed down her face. These friends, Pam observed, were entirely different from the people she and Patsy knew in common—their pageant friends. The people visiting her here were strangers to Pam. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam’s advice and lay down in the Fernies’ bedroom. Kristine went to the bathroom to get a cool washcloth for Patsy’s forehead. While she was gone, Patsy reached up and touched Pam’s face. “Couldn’t you fix this for me?” she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. “Patsy said something like, ‘We didn’t mean for that to happen,’” Pam would say later. After Patsy napped for almost an hour, Pam took her into the shower and washed her hair. Patsy was unable even to dry herself, and Pam wrapped a towel around her. Later, Pam couldn’t say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say."

Schiller doesn't say how he came to know all this detail.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 06:22:48 AM
This is the first time I have become aware of this fact:"In order not to tie the up any lines, all outgoing calls made from the Ramsey home were done on cell phones, belonging to John Ramsey and John Fernie, located inside the residence. John did answer two phone calls which caused him to react by sobbing and having difficulty talking. One call was from his son, John Andrew, and the second from his daughter, Melissa.

No one seemed to notice at first that the suspected kidnappers had not called by 10:00 a.m. the appointed time according to the ransom note." http://www.re-newsit.com/p/the-bonita-papers-are-unedited-notes-of.html

Fact John Fernie had his cellphone with him.
And the order of the calls from his kids, JAR first and Melinda second.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 06:33:46 AM
This covers whether JBR was wearing  the white top at bedtime.

"According to the official statements given by John and Patsy, John carried his sleeping daughter up to her bedroom on the second floor of the family home. Patsy ran ahead of John to turn down JonBenet's bed. After John laid his sleeping daughter on her bed, Patsy changed JonBenet's black velvet outfit she had worn to the dinner party, and put her to bed wearing the white shirt she had worn to the dinner party and long white thermal underpants. JonBenet, exhausted from the day's activities, never woke while Patsy changed the clothes."  http://www.re-newsit.com/p/the-bonita-papers-are-unedited-notes-of.html
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 08:01:49 AM
This could be an interesting read "The Murder of JonBenét Ramsey"  http://www.crimemagazine.com/murder-jonben%C3%A9t-ramsey
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 08:29:57 AM
Rare parts of the sealed Fleet White deposition quoted here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11502549&postcount=87
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
Actual address of Fernie's residence mentioned her PMPT  "At dusk, the Ramseys had their son, Burke, picked up from the Whites’ house and he was brought to the Fernies’ place in the Shanahan Ridge development on Table Mesa, below the foothills. There was room for all of them to stay overnight. "
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 10:37:37 AM
I am debating whether John Fernie took money from John Ramsey's account or his own.

https://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/threads/the-morning-of-12-26-96.3781/
 
"The original ransom note had been collected into evidence, transported to police headquarters and copies returned to the Ramsey home. Some of the detectives were working on obtaining the ransom money.  The Lafayette State Bank was contacted about providing the cash. Family friend, John Fernie, had also been to his bank and arranged for the $118,000 to be available within an hours notice in the denominations required by the ransom note.

John Fernie's bank, his money?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 06:42:32 PM
I am debating whether John Fernie took money from John Ramsey's account or his own.

https://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/threads/the-morning-of-12-26-96.3781/
 
"The original ransom note had been collected into evidence, transported to police headquarters and copies returned to the Ramsey home. Some of the detectives were working on obtaining the ransom money.  The Lafayette State Bank was contacted about providing the cash. Family friend, John Fernie, had also been to his bank and arranged for the $118,000 to be available within an hours notice in the denominations required by the ransom note.

John Fernie's bank, his money?
John was told by Linda Arndt to delay getting the money until 5 PM yet Fernie seems to have gone behind her back and arranged to have the money on hand, but even that was still not as the kidnappers demanded.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 10:13:24 PM
There is a debate about how many pages are missing from the notepad>

"this is what Steve Thomas said about the note in his book. I don't know if it is correct or note

ST Page 73

"Chet Ubowski at the CBI had pulled startling information from the tablet belonging to patsy Ramsey. By comparing tear patterns, Ubowski had determined that the first twelve pages were missing and the next four - pages 13 through 16 - contained doodles and lists and some miscellaneous writing."

"But the next group of pages, 17 through 25, were also missing from the tablet. The following page, 26, was the practice ransom note (Mr. and Mrs. I), and that page showed evidence of ink bleedthrough from the missing page 25."

"Comparisons of the ragged tops of the ransom note pages with the remnants left in the tablet proved that it had come from pages 27, 28, and 29."

"Furthermore, the ink bleedthrough discovered on page 26 indicated that perhaps still another practice note could have been writtenon page 25 and been discarded. ""

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/9ux3pc/what_did_the_practice_ransom_note_say/

So that clearly means there was more than one ransom note or practice note was written on the notepad.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 30, 2019, 11:57:56 PM
IMO the more notes that are written the more likely it was an intruder that wrote out the notes.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 01, 2019, 04:12:21 AM
This essay on the Forensic Outreach site is  well researched https://forensicoutreach.com/library/the-jonbenet-ramsey-case-spotlight-on-the-ransom-note/
Titled:  "The JonBenét Ramsey Case: Spotlight on the Ransom Note"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 02:42:37 AM
Why was Mason removed from the case?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-01-08-9701080195-story.html

"Earlier Tuesday, officials said they had removed the lead Boulder police detective from the team investigating the case. And a judge sealed the search warrant for the Ramsey house despite objections by a Boulder newspaper and other news media.

Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby dropped Sgt. Larry Mason from the murder case effective last Sunday, authorities said. Mason and four other detectives traveled last week to Atlanta to question more than 30 of John and Patsy Ramsey's friends, relatives and associates, including former business partners of John Ramsey."

From PMPT "When Mason returned to his hotel room that night, he found a fax from Eller telling him to cancel the interview. Eller gave no explanation. Mason phoned his boss and said he’d already done the interview. He had received the fax after the fact, he said. Eller said he didn’t believe him. Meanwhile, unknown to Mason, CNN, citing an unnamed source, had reported that the Ramseys had agreed to an interview with the Boulder police. When the Boulder detectives returned home and reported to headquarters the next evening, Eller called Mason upstairs to Chief Tom Koby’s office. As soon as

113

Mason saw Sgt. Robert Thomas, Jr., of internal affairs, he knew he was in trouble. When Greg Perry, the police union president, walked in a few minutes later, his fears deepened. Eller told Mason to sit down. “I’m fine standing up,” Mason replied. Eller again ordered Mason to sit down. This time he did. Eller accused Mason of leaking to CNN the fact that the Ramseys had agreed to an interview with the Boulder police. This was information Eller said he had personally given to Mason on the phone when Mason was at the Roswell, Georgia, police department the night before. It was, said Eller, information that nobody else knew. Mason denied the charge. He said he had not released any unauthorized information. “You’re lying,” Eller said. “I know for a fact you did.” “I’m not lying,” Mason shot back. “You’re absolutely wrong.” At this point, Koby had to calm him down. And then the chief suspended Mason. A few weeks later, he would be reassigned to patrol. “Don’t sell your house,” Mason said to Eller as he left. On the spot, he had decided he would sue both Eller and the department for false accusations and wrongful suspension. As Mason drove home, he brooded on the Ramsey case. He wanted to interview JonBenét’s brother, Burke. His own children often didn’t remember awakening during the night and being put back to bed. Mason wanted to ask Burke about his dreams that night. Sometimes kids wake up to something and go back to sleep believing they’ve had a dream. That was the kind of question he wanted answered. The next day, Monday, January 6, Bryan Morgan, one of John Ramsey’s attorneys, told Eller that someone from

114

“his [Morgan’s] side of the table” had disclosed the information to CNN. Despite this information, and though Eller had information that could have caused him to believe he had wrongly accused Mason—and though news of Mason’s suspension had not yet been released to the media—he did not change course. That afternoon Mason retained Marc Colin, an attorney who specialized in representing police officers. Two days later, Colin discovered that the Roswell police, unknown to Eller or Mason, routinely taped all incoming and outgoing phone calls. That information was relayed to Boulder internal affairs investigator Robert Thomas, who learned from the tapes that Eller had in fact told Mason nothing about the information that CNN aired. Despite this evidence of Mason’s innocence and Eller’s duplicity, it would take a year before Larry Mason was completely exonerated. He had been relieved of his duties so early in the investigation that he hadn’t yet transcribed his taped interviews or completed his report for the period after JonBenét’s murder when he was on the case— December 26, 1996, to January 5, 1997. Not until December 1997 would Chief Koby publicly apologize for Mason’s suspension. It would be another six months before Mason was asked to submit his report. "

So it seems they just didn't work well together.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:07:40 AM

Sibling rivalry, you know I don't really know what it means in real life situations. 

I wonder if there are documented cases of siblings fighting for the inheritance?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:30:02 AM
Sibling rivalry, you know I don't really know what it means in real life situations. 

I wonder if there are documented cases of siblings fighting for the inheritance?
How do you cope with reading this:
"Sibling Murder
Main
 
Laconic
 
Create New

Killing a sibling may not have quite the negative implications of Patricide and Matricide, but it's still traditionally seen as worse than killing someone you're not related to.

This can result from a Cain and Abel situation, but that's not required. Accidental deaths, mercy kills and the like can also fit under this trope. In those situations, this can overlap with Kill the Ones You Love.

A subtrope of Murder in the Family. May be the outcome of a Princeling Rivalry or Annoying Younger Sibling.

Adoptive siblings and half-siblings also qualify for this trope. "Brothers" or "Sisters" in a religious or martial order don't, as those terms are being used as a standard honorific (on the same line as "Mister" or "Madame") instead of describing relationship.

Killing a brother is technically known as "fratricide", and killing a sister is "sororicide", but many people use fratricide to refer to both.

As a Death Trope, spoilers are unmarked."

Sounds like double Dutch to me.

"sororicide"  Killing a sister.  Never heard of it.

When John Ramsey's oldest child died in a car crash there seemed to be quite an investigation into the cause.  Did it seem suspicious?  There is not that much known about the incident.

"REPORTS SOUGHT IN JONBENET'S SISTER'S DEATH"  https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-02-21-9702210074-story.html

"Elizabeth Ramsey was the daughter of JonBenet's father, John Bennett, and his former wife, Lucinda Pasch. Her death certificate said she died of multiple injuries resulting from a car accident.

At the time of the accident, Elizabeth Ramsey was a 22-year-old flight attendant for Delta Airlines. Her home address was Marietta, Ga.

According to a state police report, Elizabeth Ramsey was a passenger in the car, which went out of control on rain-slicked I-55 at County Line Road and collided with a truck."


What made the vehicle get out of control?  Was it ever worked out?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:36:46 AM
A later report "How Did John Ramsey's Other Daughter Die? JonBenet's Half-Sister's Death Was Also Tragic" https://www.bustle.com/articles/181931-how-did-john-ramseys-other-daughter-die-jonbenets-half-sisters-death-was-also-tragic said:

 "But, nothing significant came from the reinvestigation, and the 22-year-old flight attendant's death seems unrelated to her sister's and completely unsuspicious. Between JonBenét's murder and Elizabeth's car accident, this family was incredibly unlucky twice within the span of four years."

I would say car accidents are quite common and in general there would not be an in depth investigation as what might happen after an aircraft crash.   

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:44:55 AM
Elizabeth died shortly before JonBenet’s death. In 1992, Elizabeth’s car careened into an oncoming truck on the interstate, killing her and her boyfriend.After JonBenet died, police took an unusual interest in what had happened to Elizabeth. Even though she’d died in an accident, police reviewed the autopsy report, only saying that they were following up “on any and all leads in the Ramsey investigation.”There is no evidence that Elizabeth’s death was anything other than an accident or that John and Patsy had any role in it. The autopsy review, though, suggests just how much the police may have considered the Ramseys as suspects."

https://listverse.com/2016/10/02/10-strange-little-known-facts-about-jonbenet-ramseys-family/

I suppose if a driver's side front tire has a blowout at high speed the car could veer into the path of oncoming traffic.
Falling asleep is probably the most common cause.
What about intoxication.

Spiking a drink with a sedative would be a good one. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:51:20 AM
Here is a bit more information: "From DOI, pb, pg 72:

"Jeff (JR's brother) didn't have much information about the accident. Apparently Matt and Beth were on their way to a Chicago art museum just before lunchtime. The winter temperature was somewhere in the high thirties, and it had been raining. However, the rain seemed to stop about the time that Matt pulled up the ramp to enter one of Chicago's freeways. For some reason, his car spun out of control, sliding in front of a truck that broadsided them."

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/how-exactly-did-beth-ramsey-die.49263/

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:55:03 AM
Plot thickens -  Beth's previous boyfriend also died?  Name Dan Mudler.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 08:06:31 AM
John Ramsey Net Worth & BIO  http://liverampup.com/entertainment/john-bennett-ramsey-net-worth-spouse-children.html
"John sold his millions worth assets including company shares, house, boats because of the emotional distress after the death of his daughter JonBenet in 1996. His daughter death left him not only with the emotional but also substantial financial turmoil.

In 1996, his net worth was $ 6.4 million. At the time, he was the CEO of Access Graphics, which value grossed over $1 billion in 1996. As of now, his financial status remains unknown.

John Ramsey was born on 7th December 1943 in Nebraska, USA. He completed his education from Michigan State University and went on to serve as an officer in the US Navy. By 1996, he had already become a successful businessman working for Access Graphics."

That sort of wealth could be a source of envy for someone.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 06:26:56 PM
Sibling rivalry, you know I don't really know what it means in real life situations. 

I wonder if there are documented cases of siblings fighting for the inheritance?
It seems fairly rare, especially between sisters.    Not sure of the outcome of this case "https://youtu.be/N1OOZtgM1nI "Twin Charged With Sister's Murder Again Just Months After Judge Drops Case"

"A woman who allegedly killed her twin sister has been charged for the second time with murder after she drove a vehicle off a cliff in Hawaii with both of them inside over the summer. Alexandria Duval, 38, was charged with second-degree murder. She was initially arrested after the June tragedy when witnesses said they saw the twins arguing in an SUV in Maui before it slammed through a rock wall and went over a 200-foot, seaside cliff. Anastasia Duval was pronounced dead on the scene."

I believe she was found not guilty in the end as they were fighting at the time of the accident.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 02, 2019, 07:35:57 PM
Anything is possible even if it is rare.   One thing that Melinda did say that I think was a bit strange, but even then it isn't evidence of anything.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg516466;topicseen#msg516466

The actual sentences I find odd were:  ""I remember thinking this would kill them. After my older sister, Beth, was killed in a car wreck, it was just so awful. I didn't think they could take another loss like this. I thought they'll be dead in a year from sheer grief. Patsy already seemed dead inside. Her whole body was pale and grey. She just wasn't there. Dad was sobbing continuously. His way of dealing was to pace and cry."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 03, 2019, 03:21:49 AM
Here is a bit more information: "From DOI, pb, pg 72:

"Jeff (JR's brother) didn't have much information about the accident. Apparently Matt and Beth were on their way to a Chicago art museum just before lunchtime. The winter temperature was somewhere in the high thirties, and it had been raining. However, the rain seemed to stop about the time that Matt pulled up the ramp to enter one of Chicago's freeways. For some reason, his car spun out of control, sliding in front of a truck that broadsided them."

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/how-exactly-did-beth-ramsey-die.49263/
Go back to the original discrepancy in this case http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg515297#msg515297. 

Who was the father of Melinda? 
Who was the father of the other two kids? 
Could it have been Jeff?   
Were Jeff and John close? 
Why did John Ramsey's first marriage break down?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 03, 2019, 06:00:45 PM
Modified post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg563369#msg563369.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 03, 2019, 10:38:11 PM
I am wanting to look into the DNA traces found on Jonbenet.
As I understand it there were 3 sites for DNA.

1. Under her fingernails
2. On her panties
3. On her long johns.

I must admit the DNA evidence has me confused, but as I understand it at the moment  the DNA on the long johns matched that on the panties, was sufficiently different to the Ramsey's sample for Mary Tracy the Boulder DA at the time to clear the Ramsey family.

I am particularly interested in seeing the DNA profile from the material under Jonbenet's fingernails.  Can anyone help me find the DNA lab test results?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 01:17:15 AM
Jameson has supplied  this post http://www.webbsleuths.org/showthread.php?tid=1227&pid=3797#pid3797

""I believe the technology of today makes it extraordinarily difficult for a killer not to leave his calling card," says police forensic specialist Greg LaBerge, referring to the suspect's complete DNA profile.
He believes he has the DNA for the man he suspects is the killer of JonBenet Ramsey: "It would be very, very helpful to the investigation to have that DNA matched to an individual."
The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.
Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails."

If true that could be a solution to the case.  It is not a deathblow to the "New Theory" because I'm imagining more than one person is involved.
It is even possible DNA was planted to confuse investigators.  So I'm not relying on DNA evidence.

Which means my "New Theory" is rather contradictory to most theories, as they are picking it is a DNA case.

Had there been a full DNA profile isolated from the fingernails I'd be arguing from a different position.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 01:51:05 AM
There are pages of reports from Bode Technology at this site:

"BODE TECHNOLOGY WRITTEN ANALYSIS ON DNA IN THE JONBENÉT RAMSEY CASE.  http://www.wehaveyourdaughter.net/dna-evidence/2017/3/2/bode-technology-written-analysis-on-dna-in-the-jonbent-ramsey-case
A total of 10 pages appear but the  the file name appears more than once.  They could be from different days.
(I'm going to have to study these closely)

There were 3 files called "Report page 1"  and they were all different when opened up.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 10:59:24 AM
I am wanting to look into the DNA traces found on Jonbenet.
.....

I am particularly interested in seeing the DNA profile from the material under Jonbenet's fingernails.  Can anyone help me find the DNA lab test results?
one site made this comment about the fingernail DNA results: "That evidence was considered not to be reliable. First, they didn't know when the last time she had her nails cleaned. Second, the ME used the same clippers for each nail and hand, therefore contaminating the evidence."  https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/53jrhx/dna_under_jbrs_fingernails/

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 11:45:17 AM
Reliable summary http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA%20Evidence
"JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia""DNA Evidence"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 09:16:36 PM
Over 9,000 views for the thread.  Thanking you all for the support.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 09:20:15 PM
one site made this comment about the fingernail DNA results: "That evidence was considered not to be reliable. First, they didn't know when the last time she had her nails cleaned. Second, the ME used the same clippers for each nail and hand, therefore contaminating the evidence."  https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/53jrhx/dna_under_jbrs_fingernails/
I find that sort of criticism unhelpful.  Each nail may have had too little material to get a result.  Combining all the clippings together seems the right thing to do to me.

[Later on I found the DNA results were given for the left hand and the right hand, so they were not all lumped together i.e. all 10 fingernails together.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 09:25:15 PM
I am wanting to look into the DNA traces found on Jonbenet.
As I understand it there were 3 sites for DNA.

1. Under her fingernails
2. On her panties
3. On her long johns.

I must admit the DNA evidence has me confused, but as I understand it at the moment  the DNA on the long johns matched that on the panties, was sufficiently different to the Ramsey's sample for Mary Tracy the Boulder DA at the time to clear the Ramsey family.

I am particularly interested in seeing the DNA profile from the material under Jonbenet's fingernails.  Can anyone help me find the DNA lab test results?
There was also what was thought to be a pubic hair found on the blanket.  Why has no one asked for that hair to be have a mitochondrial DNA test done on it?

It is more than likely Melinda has a different mDNA result compared to Patsy, and John would be different again.

[Later we find the FBI claim to have performed a Mitochondrial DNA test on the hair, now used up.]

It is possible there was no actual hair, the whole thing might have been a ruse.  There are no photos, no lab test results, and now the hair doesn't exist anymore as it has been used up in the testing  procedure.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 04, 2019, 10:55:57 PM
one site made this comment about the fingernail DNA results: "That evidence was considered not to be reliable. First, they didn't know when the last time she had her nails cleaned. Second, the ME used the same clippers for each nail and hand, therefore contaminating the evidence."  https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/53jrhx/dna_under_jbrs_fingernails/
https://youtu.be/N_Q5U2YWU1Q "Jonbenet Ramsey / Fingernails DNA"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 05, 2019, 10:45:06 AM
https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/1st-cbi-dna-test-results-january-13-1997-and-cellmark-dna-test-results-may-131997-9803782?pid=1307027444&fbclid=IwAR1-IWX5WDqHJCy-EHycZEVsnn2Byj49c7jznjOauE8AULv8IETFpzmYmYg

Has a copy of the results and a discussion on what the results mean.  Unfortunately I have insufficient knowledge to fully understand what it all means.  Are there any DNA scientists out there?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 05, 2019, 10:02:28 PM
Will this article help us?  "Decoding the DNA reports in the JonBenet Ramsey case"  https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/jonbenet-ramsey/decoding-the-dna-reports-in-the-jonbenet-ramsey-case/73-347217323

(https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/17f5zkeyf45jwibc/images/1-283cce4206.jpg)

The document calls both Melinda and John Andrew as half sister and half brother but no actual proof of that relationship is given.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 05, 2019, 10:20:08 PM
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/7tq5oywtq85jwib9/images/1-c8deded355.jpg

(https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/7tq5oywtq85jwib9/images/1-c8deded355.jpg)


https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/6lv9s6egao5jwibb/images/1-846bf900e9.jpg

(https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/6lv9s6egao5jwibb/images/1-846bf900e9.jpg)

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 06, 2019, 10:20:33 AM
Will this article help us?  "Decoding the DNA reports in the JonBenet Ramsey case"  https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/jonbenet-ramsey/decoding-the-dna-reports-in-the-jonbenet-ramsey-case/73-347217323

(https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/17f5zkeyf45jwibc/images/1-283cce4206.jpg)

The document calls both Melinda and John Andrew as half sister and half brother but no actual proof of that relationship is given.
(https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/clip1.jpg)

https://juror13lw.com/2018/04/13/the-pink-nightgown-paradox/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 06, 2019, 11:06:12 AM
full reports of the DNA analyses are found in this collection of documents. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/133993644/117.pdf

""The following documents were received from a Colorado Open Records Act (CORA) request made of the Boulder District Attorneys Office for documents related to DNA Testing."
Source: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/jonbenet-ramsey-cora-files-index.450108/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 06, 2019, 07:02:21 PM
The Killing of JonBenet Ramsey  series on YouTube  covers the capture of John Mark Karr.
https://youtu.be/nQjlFPxJAEs Part 1
https://youtu.be/50J3VhXiwSE Part 2
https://youtu.be/IOhymy_tt6w  Part 3.

"August 16, 2006 - Officials announce that 41-year-old John Mark Karr has been arrested in Bangkok, Thailand as a suspect in the case. Karr allegedly told an American investigator that he drugged JonBenét and sexually assaulted her before accidentally killing her. Prosecutors later drop the case after DNA tests fail to link him to the crime scene."  https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/29/us/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-fast-facts/index.html
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 06, 2019, 09:35:02 PM
"Furthermore, two of the three samples that prompted Lacy to declare that no one in the Ramsey family could be JonBenét’s killer actually appear to include genetic material from at least three people: JonBenét, the person whose DNA profile originally was located in her underwear during testing beginning in the late 1990s, and at least one additional “as-yet-unidentified person or persons,” the report found.

“Consequently, its meaning is far from clear,” according to the report.

The experts contacted by the news organizations also found that the DNA profile referred to as Unknown Male 1, which was identified during testing on JonBenét’s panties, may not be the DNA of a single person, but instead a composite of genetic materials from several people, thus making it potentially “worthless” as evidence.

And the presence of that DNA on JonBenét’s undergarments, whether from one or multiple people, may be entirely innocent, the experts concluded, saying they could have been the result of inconsequential contact with other people or transferred from another piece of clothing.

“If true, it would contradict the assertions that DNA will be key to finding JonBenét’s killer,” according to the report."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2072826/new-shocking-dna-evidence-in-the-jonbenet-ramsey-murder-case-casts-doubt-on-parents-innocence/
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 07:32:26 AM
Once again results showing Melinda is not John Ramsey's biological child.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/5849beaf725e251ca0c60053/1481227951857/SCAN_20161101_181832293_007.jpeg

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57868571f7e0ab31aff0d29f/t/5849beaf725e251ca0c60053/1481227951857/SCAN_20161101_181832293_007.jpeg)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 07:41:54 AM
"Early in the investigation, police found male DNA in a drop of blood on JonBenet's underwear and determined it was not from anyone in her family."

Whose blood was it?
Was the blood from Jonbenet?  Or was it from the male?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 08:08:11 AM
"I am former Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner. I worked in law enforcement for 36 years, and headed the investigation into the JonBenet Ramsey murder. AMAA."

 https://extras.denverpost.com/jonbenetAMA.html  We may have covered this AMAA earlier in the thread.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 09:13:43 AM
https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/jonbenet-ramsey/dna-in-doubt-a-closer-look-at-the-jonbenet-ramsey-case/73-343376600
"DNA in doubt: A closer look at the JonBenét Ramsey case" 

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 09:44:15 AM
"Early in the investigation, police found male DNA in a drop of blood on JonBenet's underwear and determined it was not from anyone in her family."

Whose blood was it?
Was the blood from Jonbenet?  Or was it from the male?
This seems to be an unanswered question.  In my view the blood was on JBR pants and long johns so I thought the blood was her's.  But other reports sounded like the blood was from the perpetrator, but then the DNA results would be more definitive wouldn't they?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 04:31:40 PM
Part of my discussion elsewhere where I was trying to say the DNA results don't go to show the type of material being analysed:  "What I meant was that the tests will give you the same results whether the original sample was blood or saliva or skin cells, or seminal fluid or some other source. Just as long as there is a DNA source the tests will give a result. It is then the problem of trying to determine how many persons contributed to the sample. Jonbenet will be one of the contributors, and they know there was at least 1 source of male DNA, that's two, but they talk of a third contributor too. When it is mixed it is harder to determine the profiles of the individuals being sort after."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 07, 2019, 11:12:28 PM
It is not often I come across a new video on the topic  The Killing of JonBenet -The Truth Uncovered Part 2 Documentary   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x3vb5

I came across a mention of Burke playing with Lego in the basement.  Burke's First Police Interview - before the body was found - (Excerpts) https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/b36iop/burkes_first_police_interview_before_the_body_was/

In that thread it mentioned the interview that Burke had before the Ramseys hired lawyers.  (Worth reading).

Mention in that interview was Alyson Schoeny "Alyson: Alyson A-L-Y-S-O-N, last name is Schoeny, S-C-H-O-E-N-Y, and I’m Burke’s grandma."  Who was she really?

She is listed here as Priscilla's sister  "They were the inner circle of adult friends of the Ramseys and the child friends of JonBenet's and Burke's.

Fleet and Priscilla White, their children Fleet III and Daphne; Priscilla's sister Alison Schoeny; her boyfriend Clif Gaston; Alison's daughter and her husband, the Coxes; Susan and Glen Stine and the mother of each of them, plus their child; the Barbers and their little girls; the Barnhills from across the street."

Some spell her name Alison but others more correctly Alyson.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2019, 12:22:15 AM
I have found part 1 and part 3  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x3trl  for part 1  "The Killing of JonBenet -The Truth Uncovered Part 1 Documentary" and https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x3wx4 part 3  "The Killing of JonBenet -The Truth Uncovered Part 3 Documentary".


Very different pictures and discussion.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2019, 07:30:28 AM
full reports of the DNA analyses are found in this collection of documents. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/133993644/117.pdf

""The following documents were received from a Colorado Open Records Act (CORA) request made of the Boulder District Attorneys Office for documents related to DNA Testing."
Source: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/jonbenet-ramsey-cora-files-index.450108/
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/130877934/CORA%20Files%20Index?fbclid=IwAR0q3DRruVaFnv2KspR70NgXvqpJpjjiyN6CrM2lKgt4u3lUxo-p7WOpVo4  is an index of all the documents released for the case via Colorado Open Records Act (CORA) requests.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2019, 09:06:38 AM
I have not seen anything that gives me confidence the case will be solved by DNA results known to date,  i.e. I don't think it is a DNA case.
This could change if the following is done:
Touch DNA of the garrote cord and handle.
The pubic hair sample needs to be analysed for mDNA (mitochondrial DNA).
The alibis of Melinda and Stewart Long need to be double checked.
Melinda's and Stewart's DNA profile needs to be redone.
John Ramsey and Jeff Ramsey need to have their DNA profile redone.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
I have not seen anything that gives me confidence the case will be solved by DNA results known to date,  i.e. I don't think it is a DNA case.
This could change if the following is done:
Touch DNA of the garrote cord and handle.
The pubic hair sample needs to be analysed for mDNA (mitochondrial DNA).
The alibis of Melinda and Stewart Long need to be double checked.
Melinda's and Stewart's DNA profile needs to be redone.
John Ramsey and Jeff Ramsey need to have their DNA profile redone.
Very little is mentioned about Jeff Ramsey.  Was he ever investigated?

From https://shakedowntitle.com/2018/07/11/jonbenet-ramsey-key-individuals/ we get the immediate family relations:

"John Ramsey – Extended Family

JonBenét’s half-sister – Elizabeth ‘Beth’ Pasch Ramsey [deceased 1992, age 22]
JonBenét’s older half-sister – Melinda Ramsey, sometimes resided in Ramsey family home.
JonBenét’s older half-brother – John Andrew, resided in Ramsey family home, when not at college.
JonBenét’s uncle and John Ramsey’s brother – Jeff Ramsey
John Ramsey’s first wife – Lucinda Pasch

Patsy Ramsey – Extended Family

Patsy’s mother – Nedra Paugh [deceased]
Patsy’s father – Donald Paugh [deceased]
Patsy’s younger sister – Pamela Paugh, former Miss West Virginia"


He is mentioned in this report, so does that imply his DNA was tested?   "The written report/analysis submitted to the Boulder Police Department included “The DNA profiles developed from [bloodstains from panties as well as from right- and left-hand fingernails from JonBenét] revealed a mixture from which the major component matched JonBenét. If the minor components contributed from [bloodstains from panties as well as from right- and left-handed fingernails from JonBenét] were contributed by a single individual, then John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, John B. Ramsey, Patricia Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, Jeff Ramsey [the author has omitted other names listed in the report for their privacy] would be excluded as a source of the DNA analyzed on those exhibits.”" wehaveyourdaughter.net/dna-evidence/2017/3/2/gq2q172ev5vgpu1yaf9earizliw8ax

In this article it sounds like his alibi was investigated but do we actually hear about it?

"The film claims that others contradict French and then cuts to Ramsey’s brother, Jeff, saying that the officer was not telling the truth. There’s one small problem here: Jeff Ramsey was not in the house at the time--he wasn’t even in Colorado; he was home in Atlanta. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-oct-05-ca-29421-story.html

OK a mention of what John does for a living:  "By the time of her outburst, Patsy and John had put Boulder behind them, if only geographically, moving into a cream-colored brick home in a wealthy neighborhood of Atlanta, the city where the couple met 18 years ago. Much of their tight-knit family, including Patsy’s parents and John’s brother Jeff, 49, live nearby. Across the street is the private Lovett School, where the Ramseys’ son Burke, 10, just entered fifth grade. John plans to move his company’s headquarters to the area early next year. “It’s taking them time to get settled, but they’re getting there,” says Jeff Ramsey, a computer sales manager. “They have a pretty good support group here.”"  https://people.com/archive/cover-story-mystery-couple-vol-48-no-14/


OK here it says Jeff submitted blood:

"Who Has Submitted DNA Blood Samples?
Family Members
John Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997).
Patsy Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997).
John Andrew Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997).
Melinda Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997).
Burke Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997).
Jeff Ramsey (hair and blood tests in CBI Serology Report, January 9, 1997)."
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA%20Evidence

And a link to a lab report. https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/1st-cbi-serology-test-results-january-9-1997-9809500?pid=1304993049

Lab tests done and report states Jeff's "blood group type was O secretor".    So far no mention of a DNA
analysis.

"#44B-2               BLOODSTAIN STANDARD FROM JEFF RAMSEY "  Was this sample DNA tested?

Report read "BASED ON THESE RESULTS, THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #5A, 5B, 14I, 15A, 15B, 16A AND 17C MATCHED THE PROFILE FROM JONBENET RAMSEY

THE DNA PROFILES DEVELOPED FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14 M REVEALED A MIX-TURE OF WHICH THE MAJOR COMPONENT MATCHED JONBENET RAMSEY. IF THE MINOR COMPONENTS FROM EXHIBITS #7, 14L AND 14M WERE CONTRIBUTED BY A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, THEN JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY, MELINDA RAMSEY, JOHN B RAMSEY, PATRICIA RAMSEY, BURKE RAMSEY, JEFF RAMSEY, LINDA HOFFMAN PUGH AND MERVIN PUGH WOULD BE EXCLUDED AS A SOURCE OF THE DNA ANALYSED ON THOSE EXHIBITS.


"But whoever ordered them had the obvious people tested first. These included those who were at the house the morning after the murder - Patsy, John, Burke, John Fernie (but not Barbara), Priscilla White (but not Fleet), Jeff, John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey. "  https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/1st-cbi-dna-test-results-january-13-1997-and-cellmark-dna-test-results-may-131997-9803782?pid=1305067876

What house? What date?

From the "Bonita papers" "His brother, Jeffrey, was born five years later".  http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm



 

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 08, 2019, 07:58:57 PM
from the Bonita papers "A confrontation had occurred between Fleet and John's brother, Jeff Ramsey, on December 31 the day after the funeral and the Whites were asked to leave the Paugh home where they had been staying and move to a hotel. When contacted by the Boulder detectives, the Whites denied that such an incident had occurred. However, in the interview with Westmoreland who had been present during the incident, he told the detectives that Fleet was upset with the involvement of the Ramsey’s, attorneys in the investigation and their lack of cooperation with the police department. Fleet started an argument with Jeff at Westmoreland's home, went to the home of Jeff Ramsey to continue the argument, and then ended up at the Paugh residence still arguing. Westmoreland was concerned enough with the heat of the verbal exchange that he contacted the Boulder detectives to ask that someone respond to the Pauqh residence. Soon after this incident, John Ramsey told the Boulder police that in his opinion Fleet White was a prime suspect in the murder."
http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm


What was John thinking?  How could Fleet be a suspect in this case?   He did admit going into the wine cellar and not seeing JBR in there around 10:00 AM and possibly not latching the wine cellar door on leaving.  Did this allow the "killer" to escape from the cellar room?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 09, 2019, 07:26:49 AM
I have not seen anything that gives me confidence the case will be solved by DNA results known to date,  i.e. I don't think it is a DNA case.
This could change if the following is done:
Touch DNA of the garrote cord and handle.
The pubic hair sample needs to be analysed for mDNA (mitochondrial DNA).
The alibis of Melinda and Stewart Long need to be double checked.
Melinda's and Stewart's DNA profile needs to be redone.
John Ramsey and Jeff Ramsey need to have their DNA profile redone.
Read https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post?id=10294373

"There is a book written by a former investigator with the District Attorney's Office, James Kolar: Foreign Faction, Who Really Killed JonBenet Ramsey? pages 412 through 417. In it he described results obtained by Bode from other crime scene items and this is the area of concentration I am most interested. I would like to review the  relevant electropherograms, covering  the dates December 2007 through December 2010.More specifically:

“We (referring to Andy Horita, another investigator) collectively recapped the DNA evidence that had been analyzed in this investigation, and it included the following:

1-“6.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another

sample of DNA located on the wrist bindings that

belonged to a different unidentified male.

2-“7.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another

sample of DNA located on the garrote that belonged to yet

another unidentified male."

Does that mean the touch DNA testing of the garrote  has already been done but kept secret.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 09, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
I found the part from Kolar's book: "One particular sample of hair collected from the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body had initially given the appearance of being a pubic hair. Investigators thought this might belong to a male perpetrator. The FBI was later able to identify this as an axillary hair (underarm, back, chest) and determined it did not come from the pubic region of the body.
Mitochondrial DNA tests were run on this hair, and the FBI technicians determined that the hair shaft did not belong to an unidentified stranger. Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as the source of the hair, and it was noted that it could have come from either her or someone else in her maternal lineage."

"someone else in her maternal lineage" AFAIK this maternal lineage line can be as much as 10,000 years. Think of some lady living 10,000 years ago and how many daughters granddaughters etc etc can be produced, and the terminal male offspring living at that time, and consider how many persons that there could be.

So there is no way they can rule out the male intruder unless they actually have a DNA sample of his to test.

Males are part of the maternal line as well, Every male here today has a mother, and has the same mDNA as his mother.

We don't actually see the lab report, only someone's interpretation of an unseen report.  Show me the lab report.

Even Lucinda Pasch JR's first wife could have the same maternal lineage as Patsy.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 09, 2019, 10:55:22 PM
I'm now looking through the book Foreign Faction, by A James Kolar.
Is this true?
"Despite being instructed by Detective Arndt to stand guard at the top of the basement stairs, Fleet White returned briefly to the Wine Cellar during these events. He picked up the duct tape, touched the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body and handled a cigar box in the room."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 12:52:33 AM

Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (8 page of online version)
"Dr. Meyer would prepare a brief press release at the end of the day, announcing that the cause of JonBenét’s death had been “asphyxiation by strangulation.” Estimating the time of death would take a little longer to establish and was not mentioned in the announcement regarding her murder.

The manner of death was ruled to be a Homicide."

Was the time of death ever established?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 01:02:22 AM
Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (8 page of online version)
"Dr. Lucy Rorke, a neuro-pathologist with the Philadelphia Children’s Hospital, helped explain the timing of some of the injuries sustained by JonBenét. She told investigators that the blow to the skull had immediately begun to hemorrhage, and it was not likely that she would have regained consciousness after receiving this injury. The blow to the head, if left untreated, would have been fatal.

The presence of cerebral edema, swelling of the brain, suggested that JonBenét had survived for some period of time after receiving the blow to her head. Blood from the injury slowly began to fill the cavity of the skull and began to build up pressure on her brain. As pressure increased, swelling was causing the medulla of the brain to push through the foramen magnum, the narrow opening at the base of the skull.

Dr. Rorke estimated that it would have taken an hour or so for the cerebral edema to develop, but that this swelling had not yet caused JonBenét’s death. “Necrosis,” neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two (2) hours.

As pressure in her skull increased, JonBenét was beginning to experience the effects of “brain death.” Her neurological and biological systems were beginning to shut down, and she may have been exhibiting signs of cheyne-stokes breathing. These are short, gasping breaths that may be present as the body struggles to satisfy its need for oxygen in the final stages of death.

The medical experts were in agreement: the blow to JonBenét’s skull had taken place some period of time prior to her death by strangulation. The bruising beneath the garrote and the petechial hemorrhaging in her face and eyes were conclusive evidence that she was still alive when the tightening of the ligature ended her life."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
"Dr. Werner Spitz, forensic medical examiner for Wayne County, Michigan, had conducted extensive studies on the wounds caused by the application of force and was considered a leading expert on the topic.

He offered an opinion on the sequencing of injuries that had been inflicted upon JonBenét during her murder:

This first injury sustained by JonBenét was believed to have been the constriction marks on the sides and front of her throat. He believed that her assailant had grabbed her shirt from the front and twisted the collar in their fist. The cloth from the edge of the collar had created the discolored, striated bruising and abrasions on the sides of her neck, and the knuckles of the perpetrator had caused the triangular shaped bruise located on the front side of her throat.
JonBenét reached up to her neck with her hands to attempt to pull away the collar causing some nail gouges / abrasions with her fingernails on the side of her throat.
Released from the grasp of the perpetrator, JonBenét turned and was struck in the upper right side of her head with a blunt object. Dr. Spitz would subsequently offer the opinion that the barrel of the Maglite brand flashlight found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home was consistent with the rectangular shape of the skull fracture. JonBenét’s head injury continued to bleed internally until her strangulation.
The blow would have rendered JonBenét unconscious and accounted for the absence of any additional defensive wounds on her body. (Dr. Meyer had noted during autopsy no further signs of struggle, i.e. broken fingernails, bruising on her hands or fingernail scrapes on her face near the duct tape.)
Inflicted perimortem with her death, was the insertion of the paintbrush handle into JonBenét’s vaginal orifice. The presence of inflammation and blood in the vaginal vault indicated that she was still alive when this assault took place, but it was believed that this took place at or very near the actual time of her death.
The last injury sustained was the tightening of the garrote around JonBenét’s throat that resulted in her death by strangulation / asphyxiation."

IMO If the flashlight was used to hit her head the blow was from behind.  So if someone was restraining her from in front it would need to be a second person the apply the blow to the head from behind.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 02:06:00 AM
Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (11 page of online version)
"During his examination of Patsy Ramsey’s note pad, Kithcart made a startling discovery. As he thumbed through the pad, looking at the handwriting, he noted what appeared to be the start of another ransom note. The words started out at the top of the page, as the addressing of a name would be written, “Mr. and Mrs. l”.

The “l” looked like the down stroke of the capital letter “R” that could signify that the writer was preparing to address the note to “Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey.” It was an important discovery because it appeared to him that the note pad identified as belonging to Patsy Ramsey may have been used by the kidnapper(s) to write the original ransom note. Moreover, it suggested that the ransom note may have been composed from materials within the home and not prepared before the kidnapper(s) had entered the residence."

So from that the practice note was still in Patsy's writing pad.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 02:11:38 AM
Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (11 page of online version)
"To investigators, it appeared that at least one, and perhaps two attempts had been made at starting a ransom note on pages 25 and 26 before the final product was completed on pages 27 through 29."

I have previously theorised that the page 25 was the note seen by John Fernie.

I am noting a series of discrepancies between what John Fernie has admitted to and what James Kolar is writing in his book.  (I have not noted these and to isolate them would have to be a further reading of the book.)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 02:38:51 AM
Reward offered Page 13:

"Next to a school picture showing the child beauty queen without makeup, the ad offers $100,000 “for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the murderer of JonBenét Ramsey.”

The ad says the 6-year-old girl was murdered Christmas night “…in her home by an unknown person or persons.”

It says the reward is offered by the JonBenét Ramsey Children’s Foundation and “the family urgently requests that if you have any knowledge which can assist in solving this crime, please contact (303) 443-3535 or Crime Stoppers at (303) 440-7867.”

JonBenét’s body was found in the basement of her parent’s Boulder home on the morning of December 26 after Patsy and John Ramsey reported finding a ransom note demanding $118,000 for the girl’s return.

—Boulder Camera

April 28, 1997"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 02:48:37 AM
Page 13 online version:
"It was revealed that JonBenét had fallen asleep in the car when the family returned home from the dinner party, and that John Ramsey had carried her upstairs to her bedroom. Following close on, Patsy turned down her daughter’s bed and exchanged the child’s black party pants with long-john bottoms. The sequin-starred shirt that had been worn beneath a black vest remained on her daughter as she was tucked into bed for the night."

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 02:56:08 AM
Page 13

"At some point, a quick check of Burke’s bedroom was made by her husband before police were called. He had come downstairs in his underwear, and had moved the note from the stair tread to the floor near the entrance of the kitchen. John was on his hands and knees reading the note when Patsy called 911 from a nearby kitchen wall phone."

IMO There is no way John Fernie could read a note on the floor through an exterior glass door when the note  was on the floor at that location.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 06:38:01 AM
Page 14  "The big surprise came for investigators when John revealed that he had been to the basement earlier in the morning, before being directed to check the house by Detective Arndt at approximately 1:00 p.m. that day.

John indicated that he had seen the broken Train Room window during his earlier trip. There was no glass around, and he presumed that it had not been repaired from his previous forced entry that summer. He stated that the window was open approximately 1/8” and he latched the window before returning upstairs.

When pressed for a time frame of this first undeclared visit, John thought that it had probably been before ten a.m. Investigators wondered why he would be leaving the room where a trap and trace and recorder had been established to accept the ransom call from kidnappers to explore the far reaches of the basement. To them, it seemed more likely that he had made this trip to the basement a little later in the morning when Detective Arndt first reported losing track of his whereabouts around 10:40 a.m.

John offered the theory that someone had come through the basement window and mentioned the Samsonite suitcase sitting below the window. He pointed out that someone could have gotten into the home without it, but that something would have been needed to step on in order to climb out of the window.†"

This earlier visit is not discussed often, and I agree with Kolar that it would have been nearer 11:00 AM.  Remember he told Stewart Long he found JBR at 11:00 AM. 


"John had commented shortly after the discovery of JonBenét’s body that whoever had committed the crime had to have been someone on the “inside” and cited these initial thoughts as one of the reasons housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had been first named as a possible suspect. She and her husband were intimately familiar with the Ramsey home and the layout of the basement."

"Inside" would also include the older children Melinda and John Andrew.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 07:45:17 AM
Page 15.
"An expert was used to help construct the lighting conditions that would have been present when Fleet White and John Ramsey reported opening the door of the Wine Cellar. A white blanket was placed on the floor where JonBenét’s body had been found and sensitive photographic light meters were used in an attempt to duplicate the conditions of December 26th.

John Ramsey had stated that he observed the white blanket immediately upon opening the door. Investigators noted that the room was pitch-black when they re-created the same drill, and the blanket was unobservable to them.

Gosage noted in his reports that even with the interior lights on, he couldn’t see the blanket until he stepped into the room and had sufficiently cleared the short wall located to the left of the door."

That goes some way to confirming John Ramsey had found JonBenet earlier.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 08:20:02 AM
Page 16:

"Autopsy protocols in this type of investigation calls for the collection of fingernail scrapings that might help identify trace evidence that would link a suspect to the crime. In many instances, a struggling victim may have scratched a perpetrator during the assault, and skin cells or blood from the assailant is left beneath the fingernails.

Scrapings from the fingernails of JonBenét’s hands revealed miniscule samples of DNA that belonged to two different male subjects, and one unidentified female. The samples were too small to identify their biological origin, i.e. blood or skin cells, and investigators came to theorize that the unknown DNA samples had been transferred from contaminated fingernail clippers used in the post-mortem examinations of other bodies processed through the morgue prior to her homicide.

Investigators were able to obtain the DNA samples from eight of the autopsy examinations that preceded that of JonBenét.

These samples were analyzed, but none of these matched the unknown male and female samples collected from JonBenét’s fingernails."

2 males and 1 female, just as the ransom note seemed to imply!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 10:43:17 AM
Page 19:
"The paper also reported that John Ramsey’s older children, John Andrew and Melinda, were expected to testify on Thursday of that week. Though not in the home on the night of the murder, they could possibly answer questions about other relationships with the family."

I'd like to see their testimony!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 05:07:58 PM
Page 20:

"On June 3, 2000, the Ramseys posted a psychic’s composite sketch of a possible suspect in the murder of JonBenét on the website of the foundation they established in 1997. The sketch was based on the work of psychic Dorothy Allison, who had passed away in 1999. Allison was reported to have developed her vision of the perpetrator during a 1998 appearance on a network television program."

Articles:
https://www.cicap.org/n/articolo.php?id=101007

also "Psychic's rendering of JonBenet murder from 1998"  http://occhronicle.blogspot.com/2006/08/psychics-rendering-of-jonbenet-murder.html
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7188/802/400/Suspect%20and%20sketch%20composite.jpg)

This gets confusing in the end.  If the psychic nearly got it right,was John Mark Karr really involved.   Personally I'm not convinced he was eliminated from the inquiry thoroughly.


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 05:29:22 PM
"Further Affiant Sayeth Not"  Page 21 Kolar's book.

"Further Affiant Sayeth Naught is a centuries-old statement that is still used on some legal documents such as pleadings as the final declaration prior to the affiant's signature. It means that the person testifying or having given a written statement has no more to say about the matter before the court."

Affirmation, affidavit, affirmative.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
Page 22 Kolar begins working as "that lead role in the Ramsey investigation and run the team of investigators who worked for the Twentieth Judicial District Attorney’s office".

"It was eventually decided that the first thing to be cut was the responsibility of returning phone messages left on the tip line. We determined that one way to cut down on the amateur closet detectives was to deny them access to the time of a working criminal investigator. The message on the telephone tip line was changed to inform callers that if they believed they had a viable lead to present in the case that they reduce it to writing and submit it via the U.S. Mail or other carrier.

The second thing to go was the email. A generic email address was established on the D.A.’s website that was designed to provide the same message as that left on the telephone tip line. People who wished to provide information on the case were instructed to reduce it to writing and were informed that all leads would be evaluated on an individual basis."

So that is what they call me an amateur closet detective!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 06:34:26 PM
Page 23 Kolar's book:
"Trujillo advised me that lab technicians had identified eight different types of fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used to cover JonBenét’s mouth. They included red acrylic, gray acrylic, and red polyester fibers that were subsequently determined by laboratory examination to be microscopically and chemically consistent to each other, as well as to fibers taken from Patsy Ramsey’s Essentials jacket."

Where had the duct tape roll been before?


Page 24:
"But there were still other trace fibers that had yet to be accounted for. Brown cotton fibers had been found on four items closely associated with the body of JonBenét and implements used in her murder. Lab technicians thought the fibers similar to a pair of cotton work gloves.

Had the gloves gone the way of the cord, duct tape, practice notes, and stun gun when the perpetrator left the home that night?"
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 07:34:20 PM
Page 25 Kolar's book  https://100vampirenovels.net/pdf-novels/foreign-faction-who-really-kidnapped-jonbenet-by-kolar-a-james-free/25-page:

"Within a week, a CD disk prepared by BPD Criminalist Shelly Hisey arrived at my office, and it contained a series of Power Point slides that depicted a graphic overlay of the stun gun to the injuries on JonBenét’s back. I pulled up the file on my computer and hit the play button.

I must have watched the presentation several times before I leaned back into my chair and felt a chill crawl down my back.

It was strikingly clear that the electronic leads of the Taser purported to have been used by an intruder in this murder did not align with JonBenét’s injuries.

Lou Smit’s representation that these marks were a “close match” were exactly that, “close”, but not the
exact match you would expect to see from the direct physical contact that would have been required in these circumstances."


I think we can just about discount the use of a stun gun.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 10:21:34 PM
I agree with Kolar here, on page 28:

"But it should be noted that the first strike involved in a blow to the head doesn’t always break the skin of the scalp and cause immediate external bleeding.

JonBenét’s injury gave the appearance of one massive strike to the top right side of her skull. There did not appear to be any follow-up blow, and the severity of her injuries could not be interpreted from a viewing of the external autopsy photographs alone. The severity of the injury to her skull was not realized until after
her scalp had been redacted to inspect the internal aspects of her head. It only then became apparent that she had suffered a crushing blow to her skull.

Internal bleeding normally does not occur once the heart stops beating. According to the forensic examiners who studied the evidence, the presence of such bleeding revealed that JonBenét had lived for some period of time after receiving the blow to her head."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 10:24:36 PM
But I disagree with Kolar here: "Moreover, it appeared to me that the garrote had been applied in one singular fashion and not repeatedly tightened during an orgy of torture. Dr. Spitz’s opinion about the collar of the shirt causing the other abrasions on JonBenét’s neck seemed consistent with the appearance of those injuries. Although I thought it possible that the perpetrator could have repeatedly tightened and loosened the garrote during an episode of torture, I wondered why someone would do that to an unconscious child. This activity would not have resulted in the victim regaining any semblance of consciousness, and would not likely have provided the intruder any degree of satisfaction. The intent of torture is to see the victim’s fearful reaction to pain, and physical torture, and that was not possible in this set of circumstances.

It was a matter of speculation on my part, but I believed the cord of the garrote had been tightened during one single application." [Note I'm quoting Kolar here, whereas I think a ligature was put around JonBenet's neck in some sort of erotic act (like auto-erotic  asphyxiation)]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 10, 2019, 10:41:58 PM
Have I covered this in the New Theory?
"JonBenét had been found wrapped in a blanket, bundled like a “papoose” according to her father. Her favorite pink Barbie nightgown was with her.

The violent blow to her head, taken in combination with her strangulation and vaginal assault, suggested that a ruthless, cold-hearted individual was responsible for her murder.

The caring manner in which JonBenét had been wrapped in a blanket, however, stood in direct contrast to these acts of violence. Whoever took the time to wrap her up like a papoose was expressing care and compassion for this child.

I believed that these were additional elements that conflicted with accepted assumptions about circumstances surrounding JonBenét’s death. I entirely understood the FBI opinion that more than one person had participated in this crime."  From page 28 of Kolar's book.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 11, 2019, 12:39:49 AM
Kolar quoted the FBI stating the crime was committed by more than one person, yet time and time again he reverts to a logic that  the same person who wrote the note also committed the murder. (the previous post mentions this aspect.)
It could even be worse than that, in that the DNA profile in the panties may not be the killer's nor the ransom note writer's, especially if there were 3 of them involved in the crime.

E.g. "I proceeded to obtain a photocopy of the traffic ticket to check out the handwriting of the defendant. I recognized that the block handwriting of the ransom note would likely be different when compared to the actual signature of an individual, but observed that neither bore any resemblance to the other."

OK if there were 3 people involved,  this suspect may not be the ransom note writer but he still could be the garroter.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 11, 2019, 12:47:52 AM
Page 31:
"Douglas noted that he had not been hired by Ramseys to provide a profile of a possible offender, although, based upon his initial review of the circumstances during his interview with the parents, believed that the perpetrator was someone who was familiar with John, and who had harbored ill feelings toward him. It was thought that the killer had been in the Ramsey home sometime prior to the murder."

When I read sentences like that, the likes of Melinda and John Andrew spring to mind, if only their alibis could be wrong.

"The “UNSUB” (unknown subject) was thought to be a white male in his 30’s or 40’s, with some type of business background, although Douglas indicated that he would later revise the age of the perpetrator downward. His final profile suggested that the killer was “relatively young,” and that he carried a “personal grudge” against JonBenét’s father. The act of murdering this little girl had served to rob John Ramsey of the most valuable thing to him in the world: his daughter."

Could be the kids once again if only their alibis were wrong.

"Despite the presence of a ransom demand, Douglas did not believe that this was a crime of
criminal enterprise, which would have relied upon the motive of financial gain. There was some type of personal motive involved in the planning and commission of this crime, and apparently, the demand for money was mentioned only as a ruse.

Like the FBI agents who had already been working with BPD detectives, Douglas thought that the crime scene and crime, exhibited signs of both an organized and unorganized offender. This suggested to him that the individual responsible for this crime was “criminally unsophisticated.”

Last two quotes from page 31.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 11, 2019, 06:43:55 PM
Today I amended several post on the previous 4 pages.    Please go back and note the changes thank you.

From time to time I will revise the previous pages.  So even if you have read the thread before things may now have changed. 
Even I am being surprised at the strength of the argument that is developing.  Keep coming back for it is the page views that keep me enthused to produce more.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 11, 2019, 10:05:26 PM
https://youtu.be/dH283KvWXl4?t=1983  Linda Hoffmann Pugh.

She had a roll of duct tape of the same brand as that used at the Ramsey's house.
In New Zealand it would be common to find an employee taking a perk home.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 12, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
Back to Kolar's book page 33 https://100vampirenovels.net/pdf-novels/foreign-faction-who-really-kidnapped-jonbenet-by-kolar-a-james-free/33-page

"At one point that morning, while the family and police investigators still awaited the ransom call, pilot Mike Archuleta volunteered to fly to Minnesota to intercept the commercial jet carrying Melinda and Stewart - the suggestion being that he could quickly meet the kids and ferry them back to Boulder, thus avoiding the hassle of their having to arrange a new commercial flight into Denver.

John Ramsey nixed the idea, and I wondered why he didn’t want to take advantage of his pilot’s offer to shortcut the uncertainty of the availability of flights that would divert the kids to Colorado. I gave thought to the idea that perhaps he had declined this offer because he wanted to be assured of his private plane being accessible for a quick departure from the state. What came later seemed to confirm that piece of speculation." End quote.

That to me was Kolar's biggest mistake!  IMO he should have discovered the real reason.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 12, 2019, 11:08:23 AM
Page 33
Kolar writes:
"It seemed incomprehensible to me that John Ramsey, within less than an hour of the discovery of the body his daughter, would be making arrangements to take his family and leave the state by private plane. When overheard making these arrangements with his pilot, Ramsey told Detective Bill Palmer that he had an important business meeting to attend in Georgia.

Like many of the Boulder investigators, I pondered the question:

How could a business meeting in Georgia outweigh the need to work with authorities in their attempt to identify the person who had just murdered his daughter?

Red flag: Why was John Ramsey so anxious to leave the state?"  End quote.

Kolar fails to see he wasn't just taking himself and Patsy out of the state but the older kids as well.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 12, 2019, 11:32:49 AM
this is the crucial one already discussed earlier in this thread:

"There was one other major discrepancy discovered by investigators as they continued to evaluate John Ramsey’s behavior, and statements. Stewart Long had arrived at the Ramsey home in a taxi with his fiancé, Melinda, and John Andrew, just as police were clearing the house for a search warrant following the discovery of JonBenét’s body. All three of the older kids joined the family in a vehicle that was headed to the home of John and Barbara Fernie.

As they departed the area, John Ramsey told Long that he had found JonBenét’s body at 11:00 a.m. that morning. Long recounted this conversation to Detective Thomas when interviewed as a part of the follow-up investigation.

Thomas, knowing that Ramsey had gone to the basement at the request of Detective Arndt at 1:00 p.m. that day, pressed Long on his recollection of the time of discovery as stated by John Ramsey. Long was adamant that Ramsey had stated that he had found JonBenét at eleven o’clock that morning.

Considering the time-line of events, this was smack dab in the middle of the time frame during which John Ramsey had disappeared from Detective Arndt’s view, and a full two hours
before
she had directed him to search the house.

The red flag here was John Ramsey’s stated timing of the discovery of the body of his daughter. If this was not just a miscommunication and he had truly found her body two hours before he had been directed to check the home, why didn’t he immediately reveal this critical discovery to the police detective on the scene?

What could have accounted for his decision to delay telling authorities about his finding the body of JonBenét?"  End quote.

In the "New Theory" the reason for this is John Ramsey's suspicion that his older kids are somehow involved in the incident.  He obviously loves his kids and will do anything to help them.  He stated that in an interview cited earlier in the thread. (was it a Paula Woodward interview?)
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 12, 2019, 05:29:32 PM
Back to Kolar's book page 33 https://100vampirenovels.net/pdf-novels/foreign-faction-who-really-kidnapped-jonbenet-by-kolar-a-james-free/33-page

"At one point that morning, while the family and police investigators still awaited the ransom call, pilot Mike Archuleta volunteered to fly to Minnesota to intercept the commercial jet carrying Melinda and Stewart - the suggestion being that he could quickly meet the kids and ferry them back to Boulder, thus avoiding the hassle of their having to arrange a new commercial flight into Denver.

John Ramsey nixed the idea, and I wondered why he didn’t want to take advantage of his pilot’s offer to shortcut the uncertainty of the availability of flights that would divert the kids to Colorado. I gave thought to the idea that perhaps he had declined this offer because he wanted to be assured of his private plane being accessible for a quick departure from the state. What came later seemed to confirm that piece of speculation."

That to me was his biggest mistake!
Just starting out for another day and thought of reviewing yesterday's post, and the first thing I note is that Kolar says "the commercial jet carrying Melinda and Stewart".   OK so was John Andrew not with these two?  Had he taken a different flight?

Who volunteered this information to the police.   Was this something Mike Archuleta said or was it John Ramsey?   If it was a conversation between these two men it really had to be one of them but because it makes out Mike Archuleta as being the hero, I tend to think this information came from Mike himself.

I wonder if that can be confirmed, for I've not yet heard John talk of this specific incident AFAIK.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 12, 2019, 06:16:41 PM
Looking at this subject list from John Ramsey's book "Death of Innocence" (DOI) from http://www.acandyrose.com/doi-j.htm

"John Andrew Ramsey · 6, 24, 32, 39, 43, 66, 67, 93, 136, 145, 146, 149, 203, 286, 308, 309, 324, 332, 335, 338, 339, 340, 379, 380

John Andrew Ramsey arrives at the Fernies · 32
John Andrew Ramsey as a suspect · 43
John Andrew Ramsey bathroom · 83
John Andrew Ramsey bed · 5
John Andrew Ramsey bedroom · 5, 83, 84, 93
John Andrew Ramsey flew from Boulder to Seattle after testifying before GJ · 339
John Andrew Ramsey mother · 43
John Andrew Ramsey personal information investigated by Larry Olmstead · 379
John Andrew Ramsey personal information provided by Dirty Deeds Done Cheap · 379, 380
John Andrew Ramsey said there was never any sexual abuse in the family · 286
John Andrew Ramsey spent night with friends when testifying for Grand Jury · 338
John Andrew Ramsey subpoenaed to appear before Grand Jury · 335, 338, 339, 394
John Andrew Ramsey testifying before Grand Jury would be complicated · 335, 338, 339
John Andrew Ramsey took commercial flight to Denver for Grand Jury · 338
John Andrew Ramsey was already en route to Boulder when Archuleta contacted them · 324
John Andrew Ramsey was three years old when Patsy met John · 332
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long - Minneapolis arrival time · 6
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long arrive · 24
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long to Minneapolis · 6


John Ramsey asks Mike Archuleta to contact JAR, Melinda · 15
John Ramsey did everything possible to keep media out of Melinda’s wedding · 322
John Ramsey married Patsy Paugh same weekend Melinda Ramsey’s birth date · 322
John Ramsey tells John Andrew and Melinda that JonBenet is dead · 24
John Ramsey undecided if Jar and Melinda should come to Denver · 15
JonBenet Ramsey always wanted to be in Melinda’s wedding · 322
JonBenet Ramsey death is told to John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey · 24
JonBenet Ramsey pageant clothes in Melinda Ramsey bedroom · 6

Plus the 3 from the John Andrew section.
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long - Minneapolis arrival time · 6
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long arrive · 24
John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Stewart Long to Minneapolis · 6

Melinda:
Melinda Ramsey · 6, 10, 24, 32, 39, 66, 67, 78, 93, 136, 149, 189, 203, 286, 321, 322, 323, 324, 332, 335, 336, 338, 339, 340, 342
Melinda Ramsey and Stewart Long announce new baby to arrive · 341
Melinda Ramsey and Stewart Long bought new Land Rover vehicle · 341
Melinda Ramsey and Stewart Long take Ramsey to dinner · 341
Melinda Ramsey arrives at the Fernies · 32
Melinda Ramsey bedroom · 6, 93
Melinda Ramsey debutante ball · 69
Melinda Ramsey dresser · 6
Melinda Ramsey endured traveling to Boulder under difficult circumstances · 342
Melinda Ramsey flew from Boulder to Virginia after testifying before GJ · 339
Melinda Ramsey Long · 341, See Melinda Ramsey
Melinda Ramsey said John Ramsey was the most caring father in the world · 286
Melinda Ramsey said there was never any sexual abuse in the family · 286
Melinda Ramsey spent night with friends when testifying for Grand Jury · 338
Melinda Ramsey subpoenaed to appear before Grand Jury · 335, 338, 339, 342, 394
Melinda Ramsey testifying before Grand Jury would be complicated · 335, 338, 339
Melinda Ramsey took commercial flight to Denver for Grand Jury · 338
Melinda Ramsey was abused by the system when she testified at Grand Jury · 342
Melinda Ramsey was already en route to Boulder when Archuleta contacted them · 324
Melinda Ramsey was interrogated for three hours by Grand Jury · 342, 394
Melinda Ramsey was three months pregnant when testifying at Grand Jury · 342
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Bagpipes and drummer were played · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Band was ‘Swinging Medallions’ · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Burke Ramsey danced with Patsy · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Burke Ramsey walked Patsy down the isle · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Enquirer reported Patsy wore pink and white checked suit with white shoes · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Evening wedding was to be very formal · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Film was taken away from couple taking pictures · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Gene Matthews helped with security · 322
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Guests arrived in busloads from hotel · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Guests covered their faces with golf umbrellas · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Guests use special passes when entering church · 322
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Invitations were posted on the Internet · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - It was raining that evening · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - John Ramsey wanted great band for reception · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - November 14, 1998 · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Paparazzi prevented from getting pictures · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Patsy wore black, full-length satin ball gown · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Reception was at Capital City Country Club in Brookhaven · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Reporter in a tux was asked to leave · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Security demanded media stay off church property · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Staff included seven off duty policemen · 322
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Tabloid reported ‘umbrella of suspicion’ part of wedding · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Wedding was at First Presbyterian Church of Marietta · 324
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Well dressed couple caught taking pictures · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding - Woman unknown in balcony taking pictures · 323
Melinda Ramsey wedding to Stewart Long · 322, 323, 324


I wonder if there is an online version of "Death of Innocence"?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 13, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
"Oh, but we do have Kolar repeating it seems what was leaked to FOX in 2002, which in the light of everything else that has been reported about the mitoDNA testing sounds like totally fake news, but nevertheless it's there in Kolar's book too:

p. 226

“Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as the source of the hair, and it was noted that it could have come from either her or someone else in her maternal lineage.”"

Do you understand what "maternal lineage" means?
"Your direct maternal lineage is the line that follows your mother's maternal ancestry. With the exception of yourself, if you are male, this line consists entirely of women. It traces your mother, her mother, her mother's mother, and so forth back to our shared common maternal ancestor."

[Note if it was as simple as that everyone would have identical mDNA profiles, but on average of 10,000 years or so a mutation of the MDNA occurs (so I've been told)]

If two persons (male or female) have a common female ancestor in their own "direct maternal lineages" they would share their mitochondrial DNA profile as well.

This is not the same as saying the two people have a common female ancestor, no, the common female ancestor has to be related through an unbroken chain of females son or daughter of mother, daughter of grandmother, daughter of great-grandmother etc etc
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 13, 2019, 08:47:54 PM
I am reading a thread on Reddit called "Clearing up the confusion about the "unidentified pubic hair""
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/by3dym/clearing_up_the_confusion_about_the_unidentified/
I understand most of it and I can't say whether it is true or not but when I come to what Lou Smit has to say I reckon he didn't understand the limitations of Mitochondrial DNA testing.

"January 2002: Lou Smit gives a deposition in a defamation case involving the Ramseys. His information, of course, only goes up to the time of his resignation (August 1998). He states, consistent with Schiller's book, that the mitochondrial DNA testing will happen "some day". He adds his personal opinion that the hair is from a male:

Smit: "It has been described as a pubic hair or axillary hair. [...] That would suggest very strongly to me, if it is an axillary hair, that it probably is from a male. [...] Some day they will be able to match that hair with someone because they are--with microchondral DNA, the new testing procedures they have got [...] we will be able to positively identify the source of that hair. And if it belongs to our killer, that will be the most-- that will be the strongest piece of evidence." End quote from Smit.

He rates mitochondrial testing TOO highly when he said "we will be able to positively identify the source of that hair. And if it belongs to our killer, that will be the most-- that will be the strongest piece of evidence."  He was wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

Even what Kolar says is wrong, Quote:
"2012: James Kolar's book, Foreign Faction, is published, in which he confirms that the FBI mitochondrial testing did in fact take place, presumably some time after Thomas and Smit retired (between August 98 and 2005).

One particular sample of hair collected from the blanket that had been wrapped around JonBenét’s body had initially given the appearance of being a pubic hair. Investigators thought this might belong to a male perpetrator.

The FBI was later able to identify this as an axillary hair (underarm, back, chest) and determined it did not come from the pubic region of the body. Mitochondrial DNA tests were run on this hair, and the FBI technicians determined that the hair shaft did not belong to an unidentified stranger. Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as the source of the hair, and it was noted that it could have come from either her or someone else in her maternal lineage."  End quote from Kolar.

Only if they know who the killer is can he believe the FBI saying: "and the FBI technicians determined that the hair shaft did not belong to an unidentified stranger."

The unidentified stranger could have the same mDNA as Patsy.  So the FBI was wrong and Kolar was wrong not to point this out.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 08:56:10 AM
Did Patsy have any other sisters or brothers, were there any other neices or nephews? We read about Pam Paugh Patsy's other sister but how many kids did she have?

"Paugh and her sister, Paulette Davis Paugh, were standing outside their father’s stately red brick home in this elegant Atlanta suburb, the same house in which Patsy Ramsey died early Saturday after a 13-year fight with ovarian cancer."

So far there is Patsy, Pam, and Paulette Paugh. (They all seem to have a thing about having the same initials it seems.)

"The sisters were three P’s in a Paugh, they always joked – making a pun on their family name." All these sisters will have the same mDNA as Patsy and so will any of their children.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 09:03:56 AM
Kolar also writes on page 33 online version:

"There were other behavioral aspects of Patsy Ramsey’s actions that didn’t ring true to me and that seemed out of sync for the circumstances.

For example, Patsy indicated during interviews that she initially was confused about whether the ransom note was referring to JonBenét or John’s oldest daughter, Beth. This didn’t quite make sense because Beth had been killed in a traffic accident a couple years prior to the kidnapping."

This is one of the same discrepancies I noted in the first few posts of this thread, but didn't Patsy really mean "Melinda" rather than Beth?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 09:13:27 AM
The next bit tests my New Theory to the max.  I really have no explanation for it. 

Maybe it is crucial to have an explanation for Patsy's behaviour. 

Kolar writes on page 33:

"I was also perplexed by Patsy’s behavior exhibited upon the discovery of JonBenét’s body. As noted in police reports, Fleet White charged up from the basement shouting for someone to call an ambulance after he and John Ramsey had found JonBenét’s body in the Wine Cellar.

In this setting, I think it is reasonable to presume that most of us would be thinking that someone was
injured , and in need of immediate medical attention. Why else would White be shouting for an ambulance? Apparently, Barb Fernie and Priscilla White thought the same thing, for they immediately rushed out of the solarium to see what was going on.

Not Patsy Ramsey, however. According to Detective Arndt’s reporting of events, the mother of the missing and kidnapped child remained in the solarium during all of this commotion, and it was not until she directed John to retrieve his wife did she enter the living room to encounter the lifeless body of her daughter.

We weren't there to assess the situation.  The incident is of no real importance in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 09:25:35 AM
Kolar continues:

"In Patsy’s interview conducted on April 30, 1997, she stated that she had heard White’s screams for an ambulance. She kept asking, “What is it? What is it?”, but never took the initiative to leave the room to find out. She claimed to have been restrained in the solarium by family friend Barb Fernie.

A big red flag flew up the pole on this particular behavioral clue. I would have expected a mother to have rushed into the fray to determine if her child had been found, and be asking why an ambulance was being called to her home. I didn’t believe anyone would have been able to hold back a mother under these circumstances.

To me, Patsy Ramsey’s actions in this specific instance were counter-intuitive."  (End quote)

I'm thiking was an ambulance called?  Linda Arndt saw an ambulance go slowly past the house earlier IIRC.  Had someone else rang for the ambulance?  Is it possible the kidnapper rang the ambulance, but never gave the full address?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 09:31:28 AM
Kolar continues page 34:

"So, under those circumstances, I had to ask myself:

Why did Patsy remain behind in the solarium when Fleet White was shouting for an ambulance?
Was it because she already knew that her daughter was dead?
If that was the case, how did she come to know that information?
Further, if she already knew of her daughter’s death, did she play a role in that crime?"  (End quote)

We don't know what knowledge the Fernies gained from reading that note on the floor.  Maybe that is why Patsy was held back  by Barbara Fernie.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 07:23:13 PM
Kolar leaves us with 4 questions about Burke:

"When I took into consideration all of this information, I had to pose the following questions:

1. What does it matter whether or not Burke was awake at the time that Patsy Ramsey made the 911 call to police and why would his parents wish to conceal this information?

2. Furthermore, what parent would not ask their son, who slept just feet from the bedroom of their kidnapped and murdered daughter, if he had seen or heard anything during the night? This course of action defies human nature and had long been a red flag for me.

3.  And why would the Ramseys refuse to allow homicide investigators the opportunity to interview Burke about the death of his sister? Instead, they insisted that this interview be performed by a psychologist / psychiatrist.

4.  Why were Burke’s parents so adamant that he was not a witness in this investigation? Was it because the family was afraid that direct contact with experienced police investigators might reveal some way in which he was involved in this case?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 07:56:13 PM
Where Kolar's analysis and the "New Theory" merge.

James Kolar writes:
"The realization slowly dawned that, according to John Ramsey’s account, at least one of the intruders must have remained hiding in his home well after the time that police arrived on the scene to investigate the kidnapping of his daughter.

That realization abruptly halted my westerly progress, and I paused to gather my thoughts. I struggled to remember the details of the chronology of the visits to the basement that had taken place before the discovery of JonBenét’s body. I knew that four people had been through various parts of the basement that morning, either looking for JonBenét or for a viable point of entry and exit from the home. The sequence of those events was significant, and I recognized that confirmation of this watershed moment was to be found in the various statements provided by those who had been in the house that morning." End quote.


Was the confirmation of this to be found in the statements?    Read about it on page 41 https://100vampirenovels.net/pdf-novels/foreign-faction-who-really-kidnapped-jonbenet-by-kolar-a-james-free/41-page

OK so what is going through my mind is where in the house were these one or more persons hiding in the house?   What seems logical is if one was in the wine cellar with JonBenet then another person had to turn the wooden latch that held that door shut.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 08:14:08 PM
"At no point does John Ramsey ever state that he visited the basement prior to the arrival of Officer French. As outlined herein, over the course of numerous interviews and public statements, he vaguely indicates that the time frames were within one to three hours after French’s arrival and likely after the 10:00 a.m. ransom call had failed to materialize."


Surely the parents would have to consider looking into the basement.  There were unopened Christmas presents down there.

Kolar theorises "Based upon the historical record of his statements and the timing of events described above, it is therefore presumed that John’s first visit to the basement did not occur before Officer French arrived on scene. One has to surmise that John Ramsey did not report his trip to the basement or his suspicions about the suitcase to Officer French, for otherwise the first CSI on scene would have been diligently processing the area when Fleet White arrived that morning.

If these are accurate statements, then it must be concluded that an “intruder” had to have moved the chair into a position to block the doorway after Fleet White had conducted his search of the basement. The time frame of White’s trip to the basement can be estimated to have occurred between 0730 - 0745 hours. Following this testimonial evidence, this places an intruder in the home well after a number of police officers and CSIs were on scene and processing the house." (end quote)

But I don't see any reason why John didn't go down to the Butler Pantry and into the basement via the short stairs while Patsy was on the 911 telephone call.  In fact that makes a lot of sense, in order to get the conversation after Patsy hangs up.  Therefore I'm left thinking for the first time could it have been John Ramsey who locks "the kidnapper" into the Wine Cellar.

That really does make the case interesting then doesn't it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 08:38:41 PM
There has always been the report of John finding the basement window open 1/8 th of an inch and he says he closes it, but later in a crime scene photo the window is wide open, the suitcase also gets moved about, chairs get moved about, wine cellar doors are opened and closed, and the buttler pantry door is found open  by Fernie and by  John Ramsey at what appear to be different times.

It seems that a degree of crime scene alteration is going on under the disguise of "searching the basement".

I wonder what Kolar makes of it?

Kolar is confused by it all too!

Quote: "There is another aspect of Fleet White and John Ramsey’s statements that need to be considered. During his first in-depth police interview conducted on April 30, 1997, John advises that he “closed and latched” the Train Room window during his first visit to the basement. Fleet White clearly states that he observed the window to be closed but “unlatched.”

Giving consideration to the likely timing of John’s first visit to the basement (after 1000 hours), this means that Fleet visited the Train Room before John was there to close and latch the window. Under these conditions, based upon John’s statements, it must be presumed that the perpetrator was still concealed within the basement and didn’t block the Train Room doorway until after Fleet left the basement. This again places an intruder in the basement from approximately 0730 to 1040 hours.

If, on the other hand, John was somehow mistaken about the time frames involved and visited the basement before Fleet, then the doorway blockage would have been cleared and the window latched. This could only have occurred after police had arrived.

The intruder would have to have been responsible for unlatching the window and escaping after John’s visit to the basement, but before Fleet conducted his examination of the basement at 0730."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 08:59:46 PM
Page 42:
Covers the position of 6 distinct DNA profiles found associated with JBR.
Quote:
"We collectively recapped the DNA evidence that had been analyzed in this investigation, and it included the following:

1.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath JonBenét’s fingernails of both hands during autopsy that was identified as belonging to her.

2.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath her left fingernails during autopsy that belonged to an unidentified male.
84

3.) There had been trace DNA samples collected from beneath her right fingernails during autopsy that belonged to another unidentified male, and a female. (JonBenét could not be eliminated as a possible contributor of the female DNA.)

4.) There had been trace DNA samples located in the crotch and waistband of her underwear that belonged to an unidentified male. This became known as Distal Stain 007-2.

5.) The new technology of Touch DNA identified trace samples in the waistband of the leggings that matched the unidentified male DNA (Distal Stain 007-2) in the underwear.

6.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another sample of DNA located on the wrist bindings that belonged to a different unidentified male.

7.) The new technology of Touch DNA had located another sample of DNA located on the garrote that belonged to yet another unidentified male.

By our count, we were looking at six separate and independent DNA samples that belonged to unknown individuals, comprising a group that consisted of five males and one female."  End quote.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 14, 2019, 11:36:13 PM
Kolar says:

"Over a year has passed since I first sent the “Theory of Prosecution” to the offices of the District Attorney and Boulder Police Department. There had been no acknowledgement of the receipt of this correspondence, or any indication, that police and prosecutors were willing to consider the grand jury leads that were presented in the documents. It appeared that no one in Boulder wanted to ask the difficult questions, or pursue the sensitive information that could solve this murder case."  End quote.

I have also been trying to get the JonBenet case understood for just about 1 year.  Today the reader count broke through the 10,000 barrier.  Thanking all the readers.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 16, 2019, 02:39:46 AM
Imagine if it was John Ramsey who locked the "intruder into the wine cellar.  What did he see?  Who would he want to lock into the wine cellar?  It certainly would go along way to explain why Linda Arndt found him "cordual" that morning, rather than the expected frantic father of a missing child.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 16, 2019, 06:08:02 PM
Imagine if it was John Ramsey who locked the "intruder into the wine cellar.  What did he see?  Who would he want to lock into the wine cellar?  It certainly would go along way to explain why Linda Arndt found him "cordual" that morning, rather than the expected frantic father of a missing child.
I'm not sure if I ought to go any further.  Have a Merry Christmas everyone.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 17, 2019, 08:31:10 AM
Third point I noted was that the cellar door appeared to one of the initial officers to have been "painted shut".  This was obviously a missed reading (misunderstanding) of the situation by the officer and IMO could only have indicated there was someone inside that room applying a "pulling" force to keep the door from opening.
IMO and in my theory at least one of the killers was still in the room when the police had arrived.

Imagine if it was John Ramsey who locked the "intruder into the wine cellar.  What did he see?  Who would he want to lock into the wine cellar?  It certainly would go along way to explain why Linda Arndt found him "cordual" that morning, rather than the expected frantic father of a missing child.

Where Kolar's analysis and the "New Theory" merge.

James Kolar writes:
"The realization slowly dawned that, according to John Ramsey’s account, at least one of the intruders must have remained hiding in his home well after the time that police arrived on the scene to investigate the kidnapping of his daughter.

That realization abruptly halted my westerly progress, and I paused to gather my thoughts. I struggled to remember the details of the chronology of the visits to the basement that had taken place before the discovery of JonBenét’s body. I knew that four people had been through various parts of the basement that morning, either looking for JonBenét or for a viable point of entry and exit from the home. The sequence of those events was significant, and I recognized that confirmation of this watershed moment was to be found in the various statements provided by those who had been in the house that morning." End quote.


Was the confirmation of this to be found in the statements?    Read about it on page 41 https://100vampirenovels.net/pdf-novels/foreign-faction-who-really-kidnapped-jonbenet-by-kolar-a-james-free/41-page

OK so what is going through my mind is where in the house were these one or more persons hiding in the house?   What seems logical is if one was in the wine cellar with JonBenet then another person had to turn the wooden latch that held that door shut.

We've proven where the intruder could hide, and the intruder had the opportunity to escape later.

I'm thinking of the proof that there were two ways to access the basement, and one gave a secluded access to the outside via the split level bathroom and butlers pantry.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 19, 2019, 05:21:04 PM
This "New Theory" puts a new meaning to the words John Ramsey says from memory "we are a loving family and that is why we have to find out why it happened".   Is he blaming one part of the family turning against another?  Why did this happen?

I am now looking for the page with the transcript of that interview.  It is on Google but the page link won't work, but I was able to get a cached version of it.

"This is Google's cache of http://edition.cnn.com/US/9701/11/slain.girl.update/transcript.html. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 13 Dec 2019 12:37:46 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime."

The section I was refering to was:
"RAMSEY, J: This -- we cannot go on until we know why. There's no answer as to why our daughter died.

CABELL: Are you fully convinced that your daughter was kidnapped by some outsiders outside your family or circle of friends?

RAMSEY, J: Yes. I -- we don't -- you know, it's just so hard to know, but we are -- our family is a loving family. It's a gentle family. We have lost one child. We know how precious their lives are ."


OK in my memory I had the phrases in the other order.

Also a bit strange is the bit about losing one child.  He had lost two of his children by that stage, but what he said is still technically true as John and Patsy have only lost one.


Full transcript was released on the website too. http://www.acandyrose.com/04222004Declaration-of-Jason-P-Conti.htm 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 19, 2019, 11:06:27 PM
This "New Theory" puts a new meaning to the words John Ramsey says from memory "we are a loving family and that is why we have to find out why it happened".   Is he blaming one part of the family turning against another?  Why did this happen?

I am now looking for the page with the transcript of that interview.  It is on Google but the page link won't work, but I was able to get a cached version of it.

"This is Google's cache of http://edition.cnn.com/US/9701/11/slain.girl.update/transcript.html. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 13 Dec 2019 12:37:46 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime."

The section I was refering to was:
"RAMSEY, J: This -- we cannot go on until we know why. There's no answer as to why our daughter died.

CABELL: Are you fully convinced that your daughter was kidnapped by some outsiders outside your family or circle of friends?

RAMSEY, J: Yes. I -- we don't -- you know, it's just so hard to know, but we are -- our family is a loving family. It's a gentle family. We have lost one child. We know how precious their lives are ."


OK in my memory I had the phrases in the other order.

Also a bit strange is the bit about losing one child.  He had lost two of his children by that stage, but what he said is still technically true as John and Patsy have only lost one.


Full transcript was released on the website too. http://www.acandyrose.com/04222004Declaration-of-Jason-P-Conti.htm

Everyone has always pointed the finger at Patsy, but I'm now seeing a possible involvement of John Ramsey.   

What I am having trouble fathoming out is why John would lock anyone into the wine cellar if Jonbenet lay dying or dead in there.  Maybe that part didn't happen.   But enough happened down in the basement later for both Fleet White and John Ramsey to go down into the cellar that morning without Detective Arndt being aware of that happening.

Once you realize there is an alternate passage into the  basement this is not so hard to understand.  One could go to the toilet, then go downstairs into the butler pantry and then up to the landing and onward to the stairs to the basement.  That path is completely invisible to a person in the sun room or the lounge.
There is no way one detective can keep track of where people are going if they start wandering around.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 20, 2019, 07:51:44 PM
There seems to be a notable absence of anyone checking the basement.   It is the kid's play area.  How come the parents didn't check there early? In fact why didn't they check there first thing?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 21, 2019, 08:27:54 AM
There seems to be a notable absence of anyone checking the basement.   It is the kid's play area.  How come the parents didn't check there early? In fact why didn't they check there first thing?
Because I think it so logical that john would check the basement I therefore theorize he did.   He must have checked the basement before the police arrived but for some reason he won't confirm or deny doing the basement check.   
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 22, 2019, 12:11:11 AM
Fleet White mentions a certain Miss Nancy Krebs -  I haven't looked into that aspect but have now found a link  about the topic https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/a082bq/background_information_on_nancy_krebs_from_march/

"Background information on Nancy Krebs from March 2000 article in Westword" The whites are claiming the reports are false. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 23, 2019, 11:59:51 PM
Have a merry Christmas.  Keep cool. 

Keep your family involved and don't let anyone feel like they are missing out.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2019, 08:08:03 PM
It's rare to come up with something new but here is a news report of how Melinda and John Andrew were cleared.  I did not know it was the hour by hour report provided by Lucinda (John Ramsey's first wife)  that convinced the Boulder Police of their alibis.

https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8?t=1014

Don't you find it odd that someone so close to the suspects provided the notarized document? 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2019, 08:19:28 PM
Crime scene photos compiled as  series. https://youtu.be/onsaDzw6BT0  11321
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 27, 2019, 11:19:05 PM
When I read the ransom note or ransom letter as read in this video it doesn't in anyway sound like the things Patsy would say, so I can't believe she wrote the ransom note.  https://youtu.be/Fic7eyDTESE
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2019, 01:01:13 AM
I haven't tried to read the entire thread  lately.   I have a feeling it would be a mission and a half to do so.

I'd love to hear from someone who has read the entire thread.  Are you convinced by my theory?

Does anyone come close to understanding me?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 28, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
https://youtu.be/n6FkraIoeOs

"Dr Cyril Wecht on Jonbenet Ramsey and his findings on the case"  Well that is rather a surprising video. 

He is basically claiming John Ramsey sexually abused and killed his daughter.  OK previously I have suggested Dr Cyril Wecht is wrong.

But isn't it surprising that John Ramsey hasn't taken legal action against Dr Cyril Wecht!


I keep thinking this must be a clue in itself for who in their right mind would allow a pathologist to have a YouTube video propounding such a theory and allow it to go unchallenged in court?  Either it is correct and Wecht should be  congratulated for solving the case, or he is wrong but John Ramsey allows himself to be defamed by Wecht.
11351

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2019, 10:39:11 AM
It's rare to come up with something new but here is a news report of how Melinda and John Andrew were cleared.  I did not know it was the hour by hour report provided by Lucinda (John Ramsey's first wife)  that convinced the Boulder Police of their alibis.

https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8?t=1014

Don't you find it odd that someone so close to the suspects provided the notarized document?
Another version of the information https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8?t=1017

A great summary of the events https://youtu.be/4hLKXJgfSA8
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 29, 2019, 04:18:57 PM
https://youtu.be/3PctIdIbxIU  "JonBenet Ramsey Sealed Grand Jury Court Documents Released"

The Grand Jury found sufficient evidence to indict on the charge of "covering up".  You ask yourself who a parent would set about to "cover up".  If we think that points to covering up a crime by one or more of their children then we should also consider whether any alibis were also a form of cover up.  11393

JonBenet got a bike for Christmas, what did Burke get exactly?  The only clue so far was some plastic toy that needed putting together.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2019, 01:25:44 AM
This is weird but here in an interview it is claimed that Patsy admits John came up from the basement.  What I'm a bit unsure of is whether this was as early as 6:00 AM.

https://youtu.be/yLyZMDm6HJQ  "Patsy Ramsey, Police Interview, 1998 "Came up from the basement""   This supposed to be from the Tom Haney interview with Patsy Ramsey.  We need to find the actual transcript.

This interview is on the internet.
"25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly

0041

 1 what words you used, was it more than just John

 2 or--

 3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice

 4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",

 5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,

 6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he

 7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a

 8 horrible thing. You know, it was just --

 9 TOM HANEY: Where does John, and we

10 will use a red marker now for John, where does

11 he first appear in there, at least in this

12 diagram, if you can start there?

13 PATSY RAMSEY: He comes down those

14 stairs there. (Indicating) and so we are both

15 like standing here, I am pacing, I said oh, my

16 God, you know there is a note, she's been

17 kidnapped. She is not in her bed, you know.

18 You know, then everything gets really you know,

19 who's on first kind of thing."

From http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

I think the scream Patsy is referring to is the time he (John Ramsey) came up from the basement carrying JonBenet later in the day.  It is a memory that Patsy has nothing else.

11424
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 30, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
https://youtu.be/cUFVd1Rkyos?t=1474  Has Steve Thomas reading his theory (hypothetical scenario).

He says Patsy admittedly didn't want to take the trip to Michigan.  I wonder when she admitted to that.
Right from page 1, I thought the idea of having a second Christmas was more like a punishment rather than a treat.  Especially since John and Patsy and the two younger children had to back track to Boulder and then fly down to Florida for the boat trip on the 29th. 

11483
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on December 31, 2019, 07:07:57 PM
From the YouTube "JonBenét Ramsey's Father Believes 6-Year-Old Was Killed Because Of Him, Podcast Producer Says" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWYm4D_jhRo  very recently posted 16th Dec 2019.  (That a conversation actually happened is partly confirmed by the recent video footage of John Ramsey looking very old now (76).)

Twenty-three years ago, the body of 6-year-old JonBenét Ramsay was found in the basement of the family home on Christmas Day, eight hours after she had been reported missing. "'The Killing Of JonBenét: The Final Suspects" follows the latest developments in the still-unsolved case; and now, podcast producer Dylan Howard says JonBenét's father John is placing blame on himself for her death. "Someone may have been jealous of his success … He said to me, 'I live every day knowing that my daughter was killed because of me,'" Howard told listeners in a recent episode following a conversation with John.


If someone was jealous of John's millions that he had gained from the sale of his business  why not target John himself or Patsy.  What sort of killer takes out his frustration on a child, and also knows so much about the family, and the house etc? 
11566
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 02, 2020, 09:06:05 PM
"JonBenet Ramsey's Brother Responds To Suspicions That He Killed His Sister Despite Not Being A Su…"

https://youtu.be/EhaDXif5CWo

Would he be the only one the parents would go those lengths?
There were 5 kids in that family, one was already deceased, JonBenet was missing, that leaves 3 kids left. 

Burke was very young (only 9). 
The other 2 - where were they?

11592
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 04, 2020, 10:17:01 AM
Is John Ramsey still seeking to find who murdered JonBenet? 

May the Lord enable a just outcome to this case.

I can't see what that would be.

He is on video saying it would be his lifetime quest to find out the truth.  Has he achieved it? 

11627
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 06, 2020, 01:20:04 AM
John Ramsey leaves me cold!

https://youtu.be/AHVObuxQkng?t=470  " Hear him say I kissed her and talked to her".  OK he would have felt her stone cold body with his lips when kissing her.  He would have felt the stiffness of the arms when untying the wrist ligatures.

Surely from that he could tell she was dead!

11673
11724
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 08, 2020, 02:28:44 AM
John Ramsey leaves me cold!

https://youtu.be/AHVObuxQkng?t=470  " Hear him say I kissed her and talked to her".  OK he would have felt her stone cold body with his lips when kissing her.  He would have felt the stiffness of the arms when untying the wrist ligatures.

Surely from that he could tell she was dead!

11673
11724

What is the point of speaking to someone who has already died? OK I've done that to my dad; I spoke to him while he was dead. But what does it prove? Why take the tape off the mouth of someone already dead? Why untie the arms of someone already dead?

It suggests to me perverting the course of justice or even tampering with evidence.
Its a tricky situation though because if she was still alive, even only just, having the tape off her mouth that could have been assistance.

But how long was it on there by then?  Would a few seconds longer have made any difference?

11736
11756
11778
11790
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 10, 2020, 01:08:57 AM
The mouth gag had been on JonBenet's mouth for hours by the time John Ramsey found her. Had he called Linda Arndt to look at JonBenet first, leaving the mouth gag in place, would a few seconds longer have made any difference to JonBenet?
11806
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 11, 2020, 10:40:19 PM
My focus is now on the illogical behavior of John Ramsey.  But it will more of a part time study. 
Think about the question "Had he called Linda Arndt to look at JonBenet first, leaving the mouth gag in place, would a few seconds longer have made any difference to JonBenet?", and we'll see if we can discover what was the reason he behaved as he did.

View count is ticking along  really well.  11873

11916    43 views in a matter of hours!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2020, 06:40:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xivBSm0WD24  "#51, Patsy Ramsey "why did they do it ""

The video starts off with Patsy talking, but at times when she struggles you can see John prompting her to say specific phrases.   Was the whole speech scripted?

12073
 12131
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 13, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
It is getting harder to find a gem of a YouTube on the Ramsey case but this one is a real beauty.
"DwyerCrime.Blog 12-25-16 Jon Benet Ramsey Case - Questions 20 Years Later"  https://youtu.be/zmTeOg6WUWk

He doesn't say who he thinks did it but points out the reasons why it wasn't a usual kidnapper.


One of the many comments stated "

"Wannabe Sleuth
2 months ago
The Ramsey home did have an alarm system, Mr. Ramsey said it was set the night of and Mr Ramsey went on to state that it was not tripped, with no signs of a forced entry to the Ramsey home. Mr. Ramsey said it to three officers the first day of police contact. Then later he changed his statement, denying that he had ever said that to police. ...."

What are the options regarding the alarm system?

It was never on.
It was not on but it worked.
It was not on because it was faulty.

It was turned on.
It was on but it didn't work.
It was on but the intruder knew how to disable it.

12150
12302  Massive!
12431  where is the publicity coming from?
12546  We had a surge like this last year.  This one is not just because I'm making new posts.  It appears to be running on its own. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2020, 08:29:01 PM
"The Ramsey's Body Language Interpretation" There are two parts to this analysis.  I personally think she is good at her study.   
But there was one part of the interview that tied up both parents.

It was a kidnapping but the kidnapper had no where else to take JonBenet.  That really limits who it was organizing the kidnapping in my mind.   This was covered in part 2 https://youtu.be/AjOM-JMbbIc?t=2264  location defined.
You also get to see the realization of that on the faces of John and Patsy as they say this too.

She says in the introduction:
"Crystal Canale
98 subscribers
This video is the second & final part in a body language analysis review I conducted on John & Patsy Ramsey. Please watch part one of this particular analysis if you haven’t done so already.

The Ramsey’s have endured a lot of unfair criticism from the general public throughout the years. As we all know, this was due to the murder of their six year old daughter Jon Benet Ramsey in the year 1996.

Here we take a better look at the subconscious, non-verbal cues that they showed during an interview in the year 2000.

If you are familiar w the interpretation of body language, subconscious cues & statement analysis; then this channel may resonate with you."

It is surprising that "Crystal Canale" has only 98 subscribers.   Maybe it is because she appears to be a Ramsey supporter.

12558
12677
12808 amazing!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2020, 06:07:18 PM
12925 at 7:00 AM here.  24 hours ago the reader score was 12546  so that is close to 400 (379) page views.
Really they should be called "Thread Views" for if someone reads all 30 pages of this thread at one time the score will be just 1 more to the total.

["(Read 12963 times)"  called readings but there is no way of knowing what has been read.]

Thanking all those who are reading my theory.  It can't  be easy as it doesn't take a polarized view like "the Ramseys did it" or "an intruder did it".
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 15, 2020, 07:16:24 PM
One of the weirdest things that John Ramsey says in this interview is that after picking up JonBenet from the basement "things are not OK after all" in part 1 of the body analysis video.

https://youtu.be/13AoqugfENI?t=2574
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2020, 01:24:14 AM
"I guess just realizing that things were not gonna be okay after all."

https://youtu.be/13AoqugfENI?t=2512

"Well it was a rush of relief, but also fear because her eyes were closed.
I immediately took the tape off her mouth, tried to untie her arms bound above her head.  I tried to untie the knot, I couldn't get it untied.
Her skin was cool to the touch.  I picked her up and that is when I screamed, I guess just realizing that things were not gonna be okay after all."

So at some stage he had thought things were going to be okay!  Well why was that?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 16, 2020, 05:15:48 PM
13203
12925 24 hours earlier  278 for the day.  It is extremely difficult at this stage to continue to find "new" evidence that supports the "new theory".

Strangely on this podcast the two/three guys mention a theory very similar to the new theory (on Part 2).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvHK5DHenAw  "JONBENET RAMSEY - PART 2: DARK LOGISTICS (Mindshock TRUE CRIME Podcast)"

The exact location of that discussion is https://youtu.be/BvHK5DHenAw?t=2211

Transcript of that portion of the conversation:

"What if she was alive and being held in the house or nearby the house and when they called the police, or had a police scanner, or whatever, they killed her after the call to the police?

Has this theory ever been discussed?"

"But there was no break-in areas!"

"we will get to that."

"What about the basement widow?"

"That was small right?"
End of transcript.

These guys throw a lot of different ideas around and don't really develop it to any degree.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2020, 06:54:49 PM
13203
13364  161 reads in 24 hours from just 1 post - not bad.


"What if she was alive and being held in the house or nearby the house and when they called the police, or had a police scanner, or whatever, they killed her after the call to the police?

Has this theory ever been discussed?"



These guys throw a lot of different ideas around and don't really develop it to any degree.

The killers would have to be nuts to re-enter the house with a dead body, wouldn't they?  The police arrived just minutes after Patsy's 911 call.   There was virtually no time at all.
Absolutely stupid to think the killers brought the body back into the basement after the killing.

That then leaves the killers must have remained in the basement when Patsy made the 911 call.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 17, 2020, 07:21:00 PM
The suitcase under the broken window.  John Ramsey says it was not normally kept there, so where was that particular suitcase kept normally?
Someone had to get it from where it was usually kept. 


13437
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 18, 2020, 05:34:24 PM
13511 
13203  24 hours earlier

= 00308 reads in 24 hours   Fantastic!   Has the New Theory got a following or something?   Well it darn well should considering the effort it takes to generate a theory and attempt to back it up.


Who's idea was it to travel to Charlevoix for a second Christmas?  The only person that seems to have made an effort to get there was John Ramsey.

Could Patsy have conspired with the other family members to fake a kidnapping ransom note?  I struggle with that thought.

IMO if she wrote it she would have not rung the police with the urgency as she did.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 19, 2020, 07:22:19 PM
13783
13511
00272  reads in just 24 hours from just one post.  I wonder if John Ramsey has read it yet?  I know it is very difficult to understand the New Theory.  To fully appreciate it one would need to start from post 1 in this thread and work your way through it. 

Everyday I ask myself whether I have proven the theory as yet.  It will need the assistance of the Boulder Police Department to finish it off, as it is they who have the original notes on the alibis.

Were the alibis provided by Melinda and John Andrew Ramsey false?

Can the notes be released for public scrutiny?

When I ask myself the question "were the alibis provided by Melinda and John Andrew Ramsey false?", I find that John is only happy about discussing the case with the police after his two older children were "cleared".



Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 20, 2020, 06:28:49 PM
14056
13511
00545  reads in just 24 hours from just one post.  I am truly thankful to the readers. 

It is very difficult to generate new content just at the moment.  I will check YouTube and see if someone has brought  up anything new.

"Getting Away With Murder JonBenet Ramsey Movie 2000 FOX"   A fictionalized movie but it might bring up some interesting facts.  https://youtu.be/w074-r5sPwc

Nothing that jumps up to me.


This video is only 1 month old "The Unsolved Murder Of Jonbenét Ramsey"  https://youtu.be/nhm-rBOsp0I   I wonder if there will be anything new in there?  Interesting but nothing really new.

If you have the time listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8mi_siTclw 

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bddgEns6bak (part 1 and part 2)

That is: "On My Mind: JonBenet Ramsey Case Pt. I The Facts" and "On My Mind: JonBenet Ramsey Case Pt. II Suspects & Conspiracy"  'swoozebird' goes through different theories and finds the faults in each.

I can relate to her way of thinking.  In the end no theory offered can account for all the evidence.   She doesn't question the alibis of the John Ramsey's two older children.  Why does she miss that point?
 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 21, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
14302
14056
00246  reads yesterday,  Still very good.

The New Theory might be the only JonBenet Ramsey theory that questions the alibis of the two older children.
The older children would fit the requirements of knowing the house, and being an intruder as they were not expected to be involved.   All  this is just a theory until it is proven by the law enforcement. 

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 22, 2020, 06:20:28 PM
14641
14302
00339  reads for the last 24 hours.

Why would John Ramsey deliberately contaminate the crime scene?   Why would a father do that?

Why would the older children be given lawyers?  If they were in Atlanta why the need for lawyers?


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 23, 2020, 08:09:45 PM
14900
14641
00259   Next day.  OK I'm still happy with that.  But is it possible to come up with something new to discuss?

OK I could purchase a few more of the books on the subject.  I'll have to think about it.

Good questions are asked in this video: https://youtu.be/LpgAHBxdnfw  Shauna Rae has a video called "WHAT HAPPENED TO JONBENET RAMSEY?!? Has it already been solved?" 

Why did she ask "Has it already been solved"?
 

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 24, 2020, 12:55:29 AM
Discussion of the alibi of John Andrew Ramsey

https://youtu.be/wEOIhkNMYfU?t=1296

In the New Theory it is the alibi of John Andrew's sister Melinda that is the real issue.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 24, 2020, 05:56:58 PM
15240
14900
00340  Based on 2 posts yesterday.

Did John Ramsey tell Patsy to ring the police even before he had read the demands and warnings in the ransom note?

What was he doing while she was on the 911 phone call? 

[For some reason I have the image that John Ramsey read the ransom note after Patsy was ordered to ring the police.]
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 25, 2020, 08:33:27 AM
 I believe JonBenet wasn't dead at the time of the Ramseys ringing the police. The kidnappers were still in the house at the time of the phone call, they then knew their plan of getting easy money was gone so they killed her, and escaped out the Butler's door.

There is nothing in the autopsy report that determines the time of death.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 25, 2020, 04:32:00 PM
15502
15240
00262  Based on 2 posts yesterday.

OK I'm challenging the Universe to deliver the thread 1000 readers in a day.
 
IMO there would need to be a renewed interest in the case for this to happen.

What sort of things would renew interest in this case?  What about an interview with the John Ramsey or even an interview with Melinda or John Andrew Ramsey.

https://youtu.be/wXiq5ZO-rNE
"Mumford & Sons - Ghosts That We Knew - With Lyrics"

https://youtu.be/mfznghm_2BA
"JonBenet Ramsey | Tears in heaven"


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 26, 2020, 05:18:28 PM
15737
15502
00235  Excellent result.   Now times that by 4!

Nothing new to report.

15888
15737
00151  Harder going ahead.

Next day:
16288
15888
00400  400 reads without an additional post!

Next day:
16549
16288
00261   261 reads with only amendments.  I'm surprised there are new readers coming here all the time.

16569
16549
00020    20 reads!  That is more like the normal.

Over the last 300 days it has clocked up 16569 posts or an average of 55 posts per day. 

1st Feb 2020:
16587
16569
00018    18 reads for 24 hours.  You can see how I was surprised when for a short period the read rate climbed for each day to be around 300 - 400 per day, with one day being over 500. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg570578#msg570578

2nd Feb
16603
16587
00016
 




I have detailed and case for the New theory  in the 29 pages that has preceded this post.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 03, 2020, 07:43:47 AM
I can only assume that the new theory has been studied by the FBI or the Boulder Police.  It is impossible to work out who is reading the thread but there has been a very distinctive peak of interest over the last month.

To follow the New Theory from page 1 right through to page 30 would take about a month of study IMO if done thoroughly.  So if the investigation team was not staying logged in to the thread and coming back to where they had left off  repeatedly during the working day it could rise "reads" count to 500 views in a 24 hour period.

What else could account for the completely strange surge in visitors ("guests") and reads?

Whether or not I have presented a comprehensive enough theory to reopen the investigation is hard to tell.

Whether it is allowed in the USA to reexamine someone's alibi even after they were declared cleared is not known to me. 

The case is not sufficiently important to me for me to justify spending the enormous time required to find new evidence.  I can only hope what I've done is enough to stimulate the BPD to reexamine the alibis.


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 03, 2020, 07:41:06 PM
the 4th of Feb 2020.

16776
16603
00173  Reads since the 2nd, but mostly following the new post.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 03, 2020, 08:13:44 PM
I don't think I've raised this point before. 

Patsy in her Tom Haney interview says this on page 0604:

" I don't know what transpired after that,

 6 whether it was an accident, intentional,

 7 premeditated or what not. There was not one of

 8 her three family members that were also in that

 9 house, period, end of statement."

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Hearing the actual voices https://youtu.be/es_u9Z_ZEVM?t=1343 


To me that is Patsy allowing the possibility of it being another of the Ramsey family members.


Who was in the house?  "There was .....(someone) .... also in that

house, period, end of statement."

Who was that someone?  "not one of her three family members"  Why did she say "her" while speaking about herself"   Was it the opposite of "his".   
Is this a possible solution to the statement?  "Not one of her three family members" = "one of his family members" (but not one that was related to Patsy)!

[I see what "her" refers to now - it was JonBenet.  "not one of her three family members" = "not one of JonBenet's three family members"

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 04, 2020, 06:57:41 PM
17008
16776
00232  OK quite a response.  Still extraordinary difficult to find anything new.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 05, 2020, 04:27:08 PM
17183
17008
00175 
One name that doesn't come up very often is "Brian Scott" the Ramsey's gardener.  "JonBenet Ramsey Murder 9 Shocking Theories"  https://youtu.be/XQurZ-jna04?t=309


"Alibi:
Scott went to his girlfriend Ann Preston at 10:30 pm till midnight, then went home alone."  http://www.acandyrose.com/s-brian-scott-gardener.htm

Scott could not recall the broken window.  I wonder if that broken window was forensically examined.  IMO the broken glass would not have had dust and algae on the broken surfaces if it had been recently broken. 
I have always found it odd that John doesn't say he broke that window himself. I think you'd remember if you broke your own window.

"He didn’t know there was a wine cellar, much less where it was. He did recall a broken window at the front of the house, but it was for the electrical cord for the Christmas lights. He said he didn't remember a broken window by the grate." http://www.acandyrose.com/s-brian-scott-gardener.htm
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 05, 2020, 05:28:44 PM
"Michigan Forensic Analyst discusses role in reviewing JonBenet Ramsey ransom note, crime scene"  https://youtu.be/A8SWURoApLY

Very interesting firsthand experience recounted.

From the video notes "To educate the public on the importance of forensic evidence and crime scene investigation, the People’s Law School in Lansing brought in Forensic Document Analyst Leonard Speckin, with Speckin Forensics, who assisted police as a second set of eyes with looking at the ransom note and crime scene"

Forensic Document Analyst Leonard Speckin was his name.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 06, 2020, 04:36:36 PM
17356
17183
00173  "reads"  in 24 hours.

There are just so many attempts at "solving" this case, I admit to getting lost.

There is one Youtube  "OCTOBER 3- Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey-Part 1" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrvWAeNDG_I

 notes: "HLN version of who killed JonBenet. Some of the facts presented are different than the others".

I can't find the follow on parts to the series. 

The thing that I got from part 1 in about the basement window that was supposedly broken and open.

Fleet White supposedly found a piece of broken glass that he picked up.  I wounder if that piece of glass has been kept.
Was a DNA analysis done it?

If it was disturbed by the intruder it could have their DNA on it.  Had it been on the floor since John Ramsey had broken in months before?

But where is Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey - Part 2 and Part 3?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 07, 2020, 05:12:23 PM
17611
17356
00255   OK for a single post.    Look I'm about to tackle what appears to be the only bit of evidence that seems contradictory to me and that is who found the basement window open?  How open was it?  Under what circumstances would John Ramsey find himself locked out?   If he did why would he go to gain entry at such an obscure window?

Was John Ramsey able to fit through that window?  IMO iF John Ramsey can fit then so can most people.

Some good close up views of the window is covered in this video  https://youtu.be/QofH2gBtC6A  "JonBenet Investigation Part 4"

This investigator takes the reporter to the alternative access to the basement.  https://youtu.be/QofH2gBtC6A?t=275

Views of the basement window: https://youtu.be/QofH2gBtC6A?t=375

Did you hear [not "here"] the Ramsey hired investigator say the intruder had no intention of leaving the house?




Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2020, 04:16:19 PM
17768
17611
00157  157 reads in a day. 

To the readers we are going to do an internet search all about  <"John Ramsey" broken basement window>.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2020, 05:46:19 PM
This headline seems to mirror my initial thoughts on the basement window "John Ramsey. Pinocchio nose and Pinocchio window." https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/ansbnv/john_ramsey_pinocchio_nose_and_pinocchio_window/

Does it matter how wide it was?  I think so.   It was midwinter and I can't see anyone leaving a basement window open wide.  It seems bad enough to me to leave the window  not repaired since last summer. 

There is an official crime scene photo with the window wide open.  But is it the official crime scene photo if there is no time stamp on it.

John Ramsey in at least one interview says he closed it.  http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

"Lou Smit: "...Did you ever go down to the basement?"

John Ramsey: "Uh huh. I went....I was by myself. There's three windows across here...the middle one...was broken. There was pane glass broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself... it was open (an inch or so) and there was a suitcase under it...this hard Samonsite suitcase...and I closed the window. I don't know why, but I closed it... I latched it... I don't think I looked anywhere else.""

"Note: All three windows show in photo. John Ramsey stated he found the window open "about an inch" the morning of December 26th when he went to the basement before 10:00 A.M. and he "closed the window and latched" it so this crime scene photo is not a true report showing the condition of the window on the morning of the crime scene."

This behaviour of of closing windows could well be innocent on any normal day but hardly normal if your daughter has been kidnapped.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 08, 2020, 06:08:02 PM
Crime scene video focusing on the broken basement window https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RGjaqAAbvc&feature=youtu.be

There are pieces of glass folded inward.  It is consistent with a kick.  One large piece is still on the outside ledge. It is covered with dust showing it had been like that a while.
The broken pieces in the pane look so friggen dangerous it is hard to imagine why John or Patsy hadn't got that window repaired immediately.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 09, 2020, 09:44:28 AM
Even if that window is often opened, that is a silly reason for John to latch that window again.   It needed to have been fingerprinted around the frame, for anyone climbing through there they would have had to gab some part of it.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-window-grate.htm
"TT: Okay. Do you remember if John ever went down to the basement to check any of the windows down there before the police arrived?
PR: You know I, you’re just going to ask him I don’t . . .
TT: Okay."

Part of the New Theory proposes John Ramsey did go toward the basement while Patsy was on the phone to 911.

"TT: Okay. Any reason why that one wasn’t replaced or the pane wasn’t fixed or anything?
PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there."

It is one thing to pick up the broken bits of glass but what about the gagged bits still in the broken window!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 09, 2020, 06:16:11 PM
17989
17768
00221   221 reads yesterday.   

Running around putting Christmas trees up in every room, yet forgetting about the broken window in the basement, a glass danger that has the potential to slash through a burglar's arm or one of the kids living in the house, or a friend's child playing with Burke.  That was hardly the True Christian thing to do - remember Patsy: "Love thy neighbour".

Yet Patsy later wants Jesus to raise Jonbenet up from the dead as he did for Lazarus!  No Patsy, you have to be one of his best friends to get that sort of favour, not just being some spoiled rich bitch who thinks God is her pocket.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 10, 2020, 06:19:00 PM
18140
17989
00151    151 reads over the last day. 

I have completely run out of issues to discuss.  I'm not sure where to source new information that would assist the development of the new theory.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: jameson245 on February 10, 2020, 10:47:56 PM
When I started working on documentaries related to this case, I got to spend time inn the house - - and I went in and out that broken basement window.  I am no midget and it wasn't very hard.  But there is no way I could have put a child in the window well and gotten her out - I wouldn't have been able to get her to the ground or passed by her.  I also would not have been able to climb in the window well then turn around and pick her up from the basement floor. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 11, 2020, 08:25:27 AM
When I started working on documentaries related to this case, I got to spend time inn the house - - and I went in and out that broken basement window.  I am no midget and it wasn't very hard.  But there is no way I could have put a child in the window well and gotten her out - I wouldn't have been able to get her to the ground or passed by her.  I also would not have been able to climb in the window well then turn around and pick her up from the basement floor.

That makes sense.  There would be plenty of other doors or larger windows to escape from if the intention was to remove JonBenet from the house.  It definitely could be an easy way into the house. 

If Patsy is right that she had thoroughly cleaned up the glass on the floor, and yet Fleet White was still able to find one or more fragments on the floor it suggests someone (at least one person maybe more) came in through the window.   
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 11, 2020, 08:10:39 PM
18352
18140
00212  212 reads.  An "intruder" could break in via the same window John Ramsey did.  One that has remained un-repaired for months.  Don't leave till after the family return home and when the burglar alarm is left off.  Then you can leave via any door intruder chooses.
IMO That seems to imply that this intruder knows a lot about the family's routine.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2020, 12:18:48 AM
The Boulder police are linking the DNA from the panties and leggings to the killer, but as I see it she never died from a sexual assault.  There is no absolute linkage of the DNA found to the garrote handle.   Who ever's DNA is found on the garrote cord or handle then I'd say that was the killer.

Yet I'm not aware of the results from that analysis.  Are you?

"What Did DNA Evidence Reveal About The Murder Of JonBenet Ramsey?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykl1JF8lRQs
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2020, 01:23:31 AM
Wouldn't it be possible for John and Patsy to make sure their fingerprints were wiped of the ransom note.  Wiping their fingerprints off would also wipe of the perpetrators fingerprints as well.

If at the time John thought one of his other kids were involved he would be doing this to help them get away with it.
At the time he would not have known JonBenet was deceased.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2020, 01:38:02 AM
When was that taped up Barbie Doll found outside the Ramsey house?  As I understand it they were placed there the following year.  http://www.acandyrose.com/01222002BarbieDollsRamseyWebSiteLg.jpg
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2020, 07:14:39 AM
This is rather interesting but I'm not sure it has gone anywhere:
"A short review of the JonBenet Ramsey case, by Richard Eikelenboom" https://www.ifscolorado.com/a-short-review-of-the-jonbenet-ramsey-case-by-richard-eikelenboom/

and this video where Richard Eikelenboom is interviewed.  https://youtu.be/trNaXW1DQJc
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 12, 2020, 04:56:37 PM
18457
18352
00105  I'm disappointed.

Nothing has blown the new theory out of the water but it has got nowhere.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 02:28:42 AM
There are a variety of theories out there.  "21 things that Prove John Ramsey Killed Jonbenet"  https://youtu.be/bZ6fETjIprA

I have feeling every one of those "things" would also apply if John Ramsey felt that it was possible one or more of his older children were involved in the "kidnapping".

Someone suggested John and Patsy thought it was a joke to begin with.  I have no idea where they got that idea from for they didn't give an explanation.  If they thought it was a joke why would John ask Patsy to ring the police?

But once they had alerted the police they can't turn the clock back.  So what made John so determined to ring the police?  Was it being told to not ring the police?

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 10:04:51 AM
I'm amazed at how many people think the small intestine is anatomically before the stomach.

"The Case Of: JonBenet Ramsey - A Pineapple Lie?"  https://youtu.be/Xdv1duGGDMc 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 10:34:10 AM
"The Killing of JonBenet -The Truth Uncovered Part 2 Documentary" https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x3vb5

That documentary aligns with the New Theory more than others do.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
18583
18457
00126   

Why was the window photographed wide open when we have only John Ramsey's word for it that he found it open?
[This to me is so shocking.  What is that telling us?  I the whole of the crime scene video taken with a theory in mind?   I would love to have a description of the telephone wiring through out the house?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 06:16:59 PM
https://youtu.be/p54TPPPT7eM  "Katie Couric interviews Lin Wood regarding JonBenet Ramsey" 

There doesn't seem to be any proof that Patsy wrote the ransom note.  Well that is a plus for the New Theory.
Who would be in the best position to know how Patsy wrote?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 13, 2020, 06:31:10 PM
https://youtu.be/aNvmjKwLwVc  "Dr. Lee Discusses Decades-Old JonBenet Ramsey Case"

Had the police found Jonbenet at 7:00 AM it would have been easier to determine time of death.   In fact she may have still been alive at 6:00 AM according to the new theory.

Was John with Officer French as they first explored the basement?  Was it something John said to Officer French that made him not open the door to the wine cellar?   I believe that might be the case?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 14, 2020, 06:26:58 PM
18713
18583
00130  I have had a real boost to my ego.   In the year 1999 I worked out how planets could form in a solar system.  My planet formation theory got absolutely no backing on the science based forums but just last night on the TV news there was an article about a new finding and now they are saying scientists are going to have to rewrite their planet forming theory, which I believe is going to be very much like mine.

Will it take 20 years for people to come around to the New Theory for the solution to the JonBenet case?  I might not still be around to see it.   But let's live in faith and hope.

"New data from New Horizons' Arrokoth flyby hints at how planets formed" https://astronomy.com/news/2020/02/new-data-from-new-horizons-arrokoth-flyby-hints-at-how-planets-formed

Will the same thing happen in the JonBenet case?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 15, 2020, 08:34:10 PM
18883
18713
00170  OK  Where to go from here?

18975
18883
00092

19073
18975
00098

Patsy seemed keener to find the perpetrator than John was. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 18, 2020, 04:45:09 PM
19153
19073
00080   Last few days I've been a bit less driven in the JonBenet research. 

Does anyone notice the error in this documentary "The Unsolved Murder Of Jonbenét Ramsey"?  https://youtu.be/nhm-rBOsp0I?t=69 
John Ramsey supposedly had 3 kids from the first marriage not just 2 as stated in the documentary., even though I say in this new theory that Melinda wasn't his biological daughter.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 18, 2020, 05:31:11 PM
https://youtu.be/nhm-rBOsp0I?t=135

In this study he says that two days before Christmas the Ramsey's had a Christmas party where 30 people attended.

Has it ever been established who attended that party?

What I'm noticing is that the incident with a 911 call being made on the 23rd  has features similar to someone practicing with the phones.   That could mean someone at the party  was checking out how well they could monitor the phone lines prior to the kidnapping.
Could the kidnappers actually have been at the Ramsey's Christmas party?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 21, 2020, 11:43:41 PM
19781
19153
00628  for 3 days = OK

Some theories suggest the 911 call made on the day of the party was an attempt to see what the emergency response time would be. What a dumb idea for there would be no certainty that the police would even respond to a hang-up. It surely wouldn't get priority would it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2020, 10:26:01 AM
https://youtu.be/nhm-rBOsp0I?t=135

In this study he says that two days before Christmas the Ramsey's had a Christmas party where 30 people attended.

Has it ever been established who attended that party?

What I'm noticing is that the incident with a 911 call being made on the 23rd  has features similar to someone practicing with the phones.   That could mean someone at the party  was checking out how well they could monitor the phone lines prior to the kidnapping.
Could the kidnappers actually have been at the Ramsey's Christmas party?
If they were it was just 2 out of 30 people who attended the party.  Who was there?

One to make the call and the other to do the monitoring.

From Jameson's Webbsleuths ""Guest lists"
 
     The Guest List for the Ramsey's Christmas party Dec. 23, 1996, 5pm-8pm
* John and Patsy Ramsey, Burke (9), JonBenét (6)
* Don Paugh (Patsy's father)

* Fleet and Priscilla White, daughter Daphne (5-6), son Fleet (7-8)

* Mr. & Mrs. R.A. Brown (Priscilla's parents)

* Cliff Gaston, boyfriend of Priscilla's sister, Allison Shoeny (attended alone, without his
girlfriend) Visiting the Whites - from California

* Bill Cox, husband of Priscilla's niece Heather. (attended alone, without his wife) Visiting the Whites - from California

* John and Barbara Fernie, son (10), daughter (14-15?)

* Friend of the Fernies - male (about 9)

* Glen and Susan Stine, son Doug (9)

* Susan Stine's mother

* Glen Stine's mother

* Larry and Pinkie Barber, two daughters (8 and 6)

* Joe and Betty Barnhill

* The Barnhill's boarder, Glenn Meyer, was not invited. He went to the house to tell the Barnhills something about the dog barking and was invited to join the party. He did for a short time.

* Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, her daughter, Ariana (12)

* Bill and Janet McReynolds (Santa)
.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another way to look at this -
.
There were 5 children ages 6- 8: 4 girls and one boy: 2 Barbers, 2 Whites & JonBenet.
.
There were 4 boys 9-10: Stine, Ramsey, Fernie & Fernie friend.
.
There were 2 older girls: Fernie & Hoffman Pugh.
.
The Ramseys had invited their circle of friends - the Whites, Fernies, Stines, Barbers, Barnhills (the Walkers were invited but did not attend) and THEY had brought assorted parents and other relatives.
.
In all there were 23 adults at the party (including Santa and his wife).
.
34 people at that party - THAT makes a rather full house!" 


I don't know if that is an official list or not.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2020, 11:07:00 AM
https://www.marieclaire.com.au/shock-new-revelation-in-jonbenet-ramsay-mystery  covers the complete story.

More about who answers the door and why the call was said to be made.  https://au.news.yahoo.com/jonbenet-ramsey-mysterious-911-call-made-from-colorado-home-three-days-before-beauty-queens-murder-33091179.html
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2020, 06:04:03 PM
Are we getting close to solving the case?   I'm sitting here thinking we are, as finally all the elements are there.

If I was to Google <JonBenet and "Christmas party"> I'd get the first hit on a Websleuths site "The December 23 party".  Now in there originally there were photos of those who were in attendance but these are no longer displaying.
But there still one small thumbnail size photo that does and there is a suggestion that it shows John Andrew there at the party.

"One more thing...Does anyone have the picture of all the adults at the party? I remember someone mentioning that they saw JAR in that picture so I would like a look at it", is one of the quotes.

[I don't seem to be able to display the picture but you can see it on page one https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/the-december-23-party.123338/

Unfortunately it is too small to say with any accuracy but Bill McReynolds is clearly identifiable.
(https://stmuhistorymedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Bill-Mcreynolds-370x188.jpg)

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 22, 2020, 06:19:08 PM
19945
19781
00164 since yesterday. 

Did the Ramsey's have a Christmas party on the 23rd and not invite the two older kids from John's first marriage?

Personally I think that is unlikely.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2020, 09:44:23 AM
The reason for the 911 call was a person was ordering a repeat prescription for her elderly mother.   
The only reason I can think that would cause this situation was if Mrs Stein had previously used the house phone to the doctors and then rang back and pressed "Redial" rather than re-entering the number, but in the time between the calls someone else had dialed "911", so the redial went through to the 911 Emergency operator and then once she realized her mistake she hung up.

In a Reddit forum, https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/dcza32/911_call_december_23rd/

" In The Death of Innocence John and Patsy state that the 911 call was accidentally made by Fleet White while trying to secure medication for his mother in Aspen (page 97). Sometime after JBR’s funeral the Whites and the Ramseys had a major falling out(discussion begins page 293). I would assume that, especially in light of the animosity between the families, Fleet White would eventually have reported that he had nothing to do with the 911 call if that were the case."

"I find it strange, even if it was a mistake, how they even managed to call the wrong/emergency number for medications?"

and further down
"Protocol on hangup calls to the police dept is that the call is immediately returned and if it is then not answered, officers are dispatched to the home. Seems like people are leaving out this important step in the process. How does it fit in? I think it makes it more likely that kids were fooling around making prank calls."


But remember the Police said when they called back they got the messaging system.   So someone was using the phone when they rang back, that seems perfectly normal if the person wanted to get the medication.

The fact that Susan Stein is able to explain what happened suggests to me it was a mistake that happened to her rather than to Fleet White.

"Why didn't they let the Officer into the house to check up on things? I think that is significant. From what I've read, Susan Stein didn't even open the door, just spoke to Police through the intercom system, and said everything was fine, it was a mistake. Why didn't they open the door, and let the Police see that everything was okay? I can't help but think that everything wasn't okay, or they wouldn't have anything to hide, and would have opened the door wide to let them see in.

Why was it Susan Stein that spoke to the Police when it was the Ramsey's house? Perhaps John and Patsy were busy, they were hosting a big party after all, and must have had lots to do. Maybe John and Patsy were so busy they didn't even realise the 911 call had been made. But you would expect the owners of the house to speak to the Police, and clear up whatever needed clearing up."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2020, 07:27:32 PM
20364
19945
00419  Now that is more like it.   

What about the note that JonBenet was supposed to have been given about Santa seeing her after Christmas.  Now that is one aspect that has me really confused. 

Was there a note or not?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2020, 07:50:36 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/cg35ud/creepy_af_note_the_use_of_capital_and_lower_case/

(https://i.redd.it/r1m7s0penpb31.jpg)

 I saw a note from Santa to Burke, God only knows whether that was faked or not.  No one has ever mentioned to note to Burke other than the Reddit forum.


 It is something like a homemade Christmas card with a note written by hand. So if Burke got one surely JonBenet got one too, but why don't we see a photo of it?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2020, 08:13:31 PM
Here is a little lead as to what JonBenet's note said from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1840947/jonbenet-ramsey-murder-theory-suggests-man-dressed-as-santa-killed-beauty-queen/

 "Bill McReynolds dressed as Father Christmas to attend a party just days before the little girl was found murdered on Boxing Day 1996.

He's also said gave her a note that said the pageant-winning tot would receive a "special gift" at Christmas."


Were the words "special gift" on the note?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 23, 2020, 08:23:50 PM
In the NZ Herald https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11715048 it was reported:

"Family friends said Mr McReynolds, who died in 2002, "struck up a friendship" with JonBenet, and he allegedly handed JonBenet a note found in her bin saying she would "receive a special gift after Christmas.""

Physical note found in her bin!

Who threw the note from Santa in the rubbish bin? Or even when was it first found in the rubbish bin?

IMO there is no way JonBenet would have thrown the note from Santa in the rubbish bin.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 24, 2020, 04:52:27 PM
20597
20364
00233 reads


It was written on a Christmas card for all to see, so it was no secret. Thinking about it, it would be more like the parents of JonBenet to be more concerned about the relationship that is occurring between McReynolds and their young daughter.
Who told the police about all the other situations between them? Who told the police about the glitter and future plans of having it spread along with his ashes? You know that story. I'd bet it wasn't McReynolds himself who told the police that.
It may have been thought that McReynolds' interest in JonBenet could have been a bit over the top, so they were stopping it in the early stages, and threw out the note thinking the house keeper would empty the bin the next day or so.   Wasn't there some reason Mrs Pugh did not turn up on the 24th and the 25th (Patsy was planning to give her a cheque but it wasn't picked up).

Being a parent Patsy has the right to determine who JonBenet associated with.

What I think is if Patsy talked to anyone about the unusual relationship between Santa and JonBenet someone else could use that information to direct attention away from themselves.

McReynolds' daughter had been abducted years before on Christmas day.  (confirm)
Mrs McReynolds had written a story about an abduction. (confirm)

So it is theoretically possible to mimic these situations to make it look suspicious that McReynolds was involved.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 25, 2020, 12:58:39 AM
Any comment on a card that suggested a special visit after Christmas could easily be misunderstood by a parent.

It would not be worth the risk. I could see Patsy and maybe John taking action to stop this "extra visit" by Santa.

First step would be to get rid of the card -  throw it in the rubbish bin, whether or not JonBenet values it. Get rid of it, for it could be error to let it happen.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 25, 2020, 01:11:31 AM
20597
20364
00233 reads


It was written on a Christmas card for all to see, so it was no secret. Thinking about it, it would be more like the parents of JonBenet to be more concerned about the relationship that is occurring between McReynolds and their young daughter.
Who told the police about all the other situations between them? Who told the police about the glitter and future plans of having it spread along with his ashes? You know that story. I'd bet it wasn't McReynolds himself who told the police that.
It may have been thought that McReynolds' interest in JonBenet could have been a bit over the top, so they were stopping it in the early stages, and threw out the note thinking the house keeper would empty the bin the next day or so.   Wasn't there some reason Mrs Pugh did not turn up on the 24th and the 25th (Patsy was planning to give her a cheque but it wasn't picked up).

Being a parent Patsy has the right to determine who JonBenet associated with.

What I think is if Patsy talked to anyone about the unusual relationship between Santa and JonBenet someone else could use that information to direct attention away from themselves.

McReynolds' daughter had been abducted years before on Christmas day.  (confirm)
Mrs McReynolds had written a story about an abduction. (confirm)

So it is theoretically possible to mimic these situations to make it look suspicious that McReynolds was involved.
Confirmation of a sort from article at http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/03-1.html

"The News said police are interested in the McReynoldses because of two parallels to the Ramsey slaying.

One is the fact that the McReynoldses' middle daughter, then 9, was abducted along with a friend in Longmont and witnessed the sexual molestation of her friend. The incident occurred on Dec. 26, 1974. No suspects were ever arrested.

JonBenet was found murdered in the basement of her parents' luxurious Boulder home 22 years later. An autopsy showed that JonBenet may have been sexually assaulted.

Another parallel is an award-winning play written by Janet McReynolds in 1976. The play, "Hey Rube," is about the sexual assault, torture and murder of a girl whose body was found in a basement.

Janet McReynolds went with her husband to the Ramsey house on the night of Dec. 23, when he portrayed Santa at a Christmas party for the third consecutive year. Bill McReynolds was given a tour of the Ramsey's 6,866-square-foot home in 1995.

The McReynoldses told police their alibi for the night of JonBenet's murder was that they went to bed at 8 p.m. JonBenet died sometime between her bedtime Christmas night and dawn the following day.

"They've always said they're doing this for the purpose of exclusion," Janet McReynolds said of the police request for hair and handwriting samples. "I'm sure we're very far down the list of potential suspects."

Bill McReynolds said he had nothing to do with the murder and said his wife "could never be a suspect" in the case.

"I always told my students to seek the truth," he said. "Now I'm on the other side of it. ... I'm probably naive and stupid."

He said the abduction of his own daughter and the play are coincidences."  End Quote.

Now what I'm proposing is that someone knew of both these coincidences and used them to direct the blame of JonBenet's situation on to the McReynoldses.

That comes under the term mentioned in the ransom note of "countermeasures", and it is a good one for it really baffles one to think how the similarities and the Christmas note go hand in hand (i.e. the closeness of the relationship between JonBenet and Bill McReynolds).

It certainly IMO points to someone close to the family and someone who knew the McReynoldses, and who is clever enough to exploit that knowledge.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 25, 2020, 05:37:25 PM
20719
20597
00122   way down again.!

Still unexplained are the phone lines in the house.  How many landlines were there?  How many jack points were there? 
The New Theory depends on having access to the phone lines in the basement.

20844
20719
00125 reads.  Not much to read if there are no new posts

33 pages all pointing in the same direction.

20966
20844
00122  Reads without a new post.  Interesting.

21102
20966
00136 Yeah!

21261
21102
00159  OK not bad.

21288
21261
00027  Got to take the good and the bad!

21327
21288
00039   Too low but what can I do?

21390
21327
00063  That was before I posted about JMK 


Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 03, 2020, 04:28:44 PM
Finally, something has surfaced that has interesting aspects (referring to the post that follows)

".....  Glad to see that Doug Longhini has acknowledged that the garrote was tested. Until all suspects have also been compared against that profile as well I don't see how they can be eliminated. I was disappointed that they didn't mention that a man living o on JMK's Alabama property in a trailer at the time of the murder (JLD) who was extradited for child rape and child torture. This man made a plea deal to do a lengthy sentence if he could. avoid CODIS. He makes a great accomplice if you ask me. And why was it so important to avoid CODIS? It was all hushed up because no DA wants to be known to avoiding CODIS with a child rape suspect. The public would be outraged
Secondly, JMK said "she was suspended at one time" Even I assumed he meant hung up vertically. However when you read his manuscript he discussed her being straddled around his waist. She was horizontal, not vertical and I was told thIs DOES match the evidence. I was also told there were pipes. Jameson said "no I was in the house there are no pipes" I told her I saw a photo of them that Raye Croghan came to have access to. Then she admitted there WERE pipes in the ceiling of the basement but it was in a different room. IIRC this is the room where he said he connected her to a window. This room does have a window. Karr was never interviewed by ANYONE in the United States. He got an attorney and shut up real quick. They only thing they had to go on was what he said in Thailand and most was wrong due to poor Thai translation. He never met Mary Lacy or Mark Beckner. The photo Beckner said proved he was in Atlanta didn't have him in it and was later proven to be taken around Easter 1997, not Christmas 1996. Thirdly, JMK's fiancé's said he asked her to use a garrote all the time. She always refused.
Laurie B Simpson Karr also has four handwriting experts and the top scientific linguist in the country who claim he was the author of the ransom note. I don't think there is more evidence on any other suspect out there. Many cold cases get solved years later by looking back to a suspect that was previously cleared."

I can't or don't know how to link to the source but it is from a private FB group titled "Who Killed Jonbenet Ramsey?"  https://www.facebook.com/groups/who.killed.jonbenet.ramsey/about/


I can't recall what I've said about John Mark Karr in the New Theory previously.  I'll have to go and search the thread.

Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 03, 2020, 04:36:44 PM
"New JonBenet Ramsey Podcast Reveals 2 Additional Suspects in the Shocking Case: Listen"

https://www.closerweekly.com/posts/the-killing-of-jonbenet-podcast-reveals-2-new-suspects-in-her-murder/?fbclid=IwAR2-oLi1iJP84hZpE7c70P1gCFaWZVW5UOMhmF5OD4rjTlNk3R3DnxPhjfg

The link is working for me.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 04, 2020, 10:47:36 AM
Only in 3 posts have I mentioned John Mark Karr (JMK).

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10611.msg565047;topicseen#msg565047 is the only post where I expressed a personal opinion on JMK.

"....  If the psychic nearly got it right, was John Mark Karr really involved.   Personally I'm not convinced he was eliminated from the inquiry thoroughly."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 05, 2020, 02:10:06 AM
In this podcast, the commentator states "the DNA on her panties, longjohns and fingernails were all from the same source". 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jonben%C3%A9t-confronting-the-hendersons/id1469962833?i=1000465808199&fbclid=IwAR21rEya0bvIP1jPhmDYcK0ZgnxMxw4RQCSaTtEAIGEvoZKwGFFYWkA_IXE

Is this really true?
Can anyone help me prove that?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 05, 2020, 10:21:43 AM
All the podcasts in a series.  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-killing-of-jonbenet-the-final-suspects/id1469962833?fbclid=IwAR3DLTD8SMuCQYCxej3nqHJHSyR7unjD-zPL-uKN3pQdwkT-oK2yfofE12Q
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 06, 2020, 09:33:01 PM
Do those latest attempts by the Ramsey's support the new theory or not?   I find it odd that John Andrew is getting involved in the investigation.  But then I'm just as suspicious that Melinda hasn't got involved either.   So that is a no-win situation, she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 07, 2020, 07:40:28 AM
21853
21390
00463  over 4 days?

"All the podcasts in a series.  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-killing-of-jonbenet-the-final-suspects/id1469962833?fbclid=IwAR3DLTD8SMuCQYCxej3nqHJHSyR7unjD-zPL-uKN3pQdwkT-oK2yfofE12Q"

Have you listened to them all yet?  Do they support the New Theory?
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 08, 2020, 09:53:37 AM
21853
21390
00463  over 4 days?

"All the podcasts in a series.  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-killing-of-jonbenet-the-final-suspects/id1469962833?fbclid=IwAR3DLTD8SMuCQYCxej3nqHJHSyR7unjD-zPL-uKN3pQdwkT-oK2yfofE12Q"

Have you listened to them all yet?  Do they support the New Theory?
Did any of the podcasts mention Melinda by name?   Is that significant?

Come to think of it they didn't mention Burke either!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 09, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
My main focus of attention will be to explore ways to prevent the severity of the Covid 19 disease.  I thank those who have followed this thread.
One gets the feeling any treatment will be developed way too slow to be of any use.  Still got to try!
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 16, 2020, 02:02:47 AM
A few pages back we discussed the Santa note.

This has come up on a Facebook forum:  " One crumbled up note from one adult to another adult was found in JonBonet's trash bin. Stating in part "Hello friend, enjoy your holiday" source unknown.
Another note stating "You will receive a Special Gift after Christmas" was found folded up inside the sack of a Santa Bear with a little brown sack over it's shoulder which was found on JonBonet's twin bed."

That is pretty detailed but I can't confirm the original source of the information at this stage.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 16, 2020, 10:01:56 PM
A few pages back we discussed the Santa note.

This has come up on a Facebook forum:  " One crumbled up note from one adult to another adult was found in JonBonet's trash bin. Stating in part "Hello friend, enjoy your holiday" source unknown.
Another note stating "You will receive a Special Gift after Christmas" was found folded up inside the sack of a Santa Bear with a little brown sack over it's shoulder which was found on JonBonet's twin bed."

That is pretty detailed but I can't confirm the original source of the information at this stage.
The person who gave me this quote has revealed where it was sourced.   It was from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/ann9ts/reposting_possible_intruder_evidence/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

I don't see the actual source of this information either.

"REPOSTING possible Intruder Evidence
Foreign male DNA contained within saliva was mixed in with JonBenet’s blood found in two stains on JonBenet’s panties

At least two separate foreign male DNA profiles contained within skin cells deposited on the waistband area of JonBenet’s longjohns. One of the profiles matched the male DNA profile in the stain on her panties.

A third and different foreign male partial DNA profile found on the garotte and a fourth and different one again was found on the wrist ligature in 2008. All suggesting that there were multiple intruders

Three sets of paired almost rectangular, burn-like marks were found by the coroner at various locations on JonBenet’s body. The consensus of the most reliable investigators is that the explanation for these marks is that they were made by a stun gun brought in by an intruder since there was no stun gun found in the house the next day and there is no record of the Ramseys ever having one in their possession

A metal flashlight was found in a location in the house that was not specified in the search warrant documents. It has never been revealed to anyone where this flashlight was found and police have let the public believe it was the same flashlight that was photographed on the kitchen counter. It was not.

A glass with a teabag in it was also found on the breakfast table that the Ramseys say they know nothing about.

Fresh pineapple/fruit cocktail was found in a bowl on the breakfast table that the Ramseys say they know nothing about.

Partly digested pineapple pieces found in the proximal portion of JonBenet’s intestine. Its location in the gut suggested an estimated time of ingestion of about 1 hour prior to death. The Ramseys say they did not feed to her

Petechiae were observed in JonBenet’s eyes, which is evidence of her having been strangled, not necessarily fatally, prior to being bashed over the head. This is totally inconsistent with claims that neck ligature was 'staged' by a Ramsey after death.

There were no signs of clotting of the blood that leaked from the brain injury that JonBenet suffered, indicating that she was strangled at the same time as she was bashed over the head. There would have been more advanced clotting had she lived for even a few minutes following the infliction of the head injury. This is totally inconsistent with claims that JonBenet lived for some time after the strangulation and inconsistent with any RDI scenario.

A brown paper sack with rope beside it was found in in JAR’s bedroom. The sack did not belong to any Ramsey. Brown fibers consistent with those of the sack were found on the sheets of JonBenet’s bed

A Caucasian pubic hair was found on JonBenet’s white blanket from which mitochondrial DNA was extracted. The mitoDNA did not match John or Patsy

A heart had been drawn on the palm of JonBenet’s right hand that was not there the night before

An extra hair tie had been put in JonBenet’s hair below the one high up on her head that Patsy said she gone to bed with. There was a box of spilt hair ties found on the floor of her bedroom the next morning

Dark brown animal hairs were found on both JonBenet’s hands. The hairs have never been sourced to anything in the house and the type of animal they came from has never been identified

A crumpled up note from one adult to another was found in JonBenet’s trash bin in her bedroom. The note read in part “Hello friend, enjoy your holiday.” The source of the note has never been found

A Santa bear with a little brown bag over his shoulder was found on the twin bed in JonBenet’s room. Inside the bag was a little note that said “You will receive a special gift after Christmas”. The source of the bear is unknown

A neighbor and mother of one of JonBenet’s playmates reported that JonBenet told her and her daughter that Santa had promised that he would make another visit after Christmas and that it was a secret.

A knife with a broken purple ornament was found on a counter in the room next to the boiler room in the basement. The knife has never been sourced

An unidentified HiTec bootprint was found in the mold on the floor on the wine cellar room.

Another unidentified shoeprint was found on the floor of the wine cellar

An unidentified handprint was found on the wine cellar door.

Nineteen cigarette butts were found on the ground outside on the north side of the house in the neighbour's adjacent property

Freshly disturbed soil was found outside the basement toilet window. This was a window that had a view in to the bottom of the stairs leading to the basement

Neighbors reported that the outside security light on the Ramsey house was turned off that night for the first time ever. Later it was found that the globe had been pulled out from the socket

Between midnight and 1 am there was loud and terrifying child's scream lasting a few seconds that was suddenly cut off short. This was heard not just by one, but by two different neighbors in early hours of the morning of the 26th.

There was another neighbor who, after being woken by his wife who was so disturbed by the scream, then heard the sound of metal crashing on concrete a short time later

A metal baseball bat not belonging to any Ramsey or neighborhood child was found outside the butler kitchen door. It was never sourced. There were fibers consistent with those of the basement carpet found on this bat

White polypropylene fibers were found on JonBenet’s sheets that are consistent with the white polypropylene fibers of the wrist ligatures and the garotte

Brown cotton fibers were found on the garotte cord and handle, the duct tape and on JonBenet’s clothing. These match one another but have not been matched to anything else at the crime scene or in the house

Dark fibers were found in JonBenet’s crotch area and on her clothing. They have not been sourced

Navy fuzz balls were found on JonBenet’s Gap top. They have not been sourced

Red fibers were found on JonBenet’s Gap top, the garotte and JonBenet's little white blanket. Despite reports to the contrary, they we're not consistent with the fibers from Patsy's red sweater. They have not been sourced

There was a report from another neighbor that a young unknown man was seen outside the Ramsey house on the afternoon of Christmas Day. Also a second report from yet another neighbor of a person with a different description on the steps outside the Ramsey house

The sound of extra voices at the end of Patsy’s 911 call were heard when the recording tape was enhanced by Aerospace Inc. that were much too faint to have come from Burke and John across the other side of the room, voices that could have been from an incoming call to Patsy on her cell phone while she was in the middle of the 911 call on the home phone line

The butler pantry door exit to the north side of the house was found open the next morning

Two more pages had been torn from Patsy's notepad, the one with the 3 pages torn out that the ransom note was written on. Evidence indicates that a 'practice note' was started on these two pages. Both these pages were missing from the house."
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 17, 2020, 08:11:41 AM
We have covered many of those points in this thread.  There seems to be additional sources for this information that I've not come across as yet.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 21, 2020, 06:33:37 AM
My main focus of attention will be to explore ways to prevent the severity of the Covid 19 disease.  I thank those who have followed this thread.
One gets the feeling any treatment will be developed way too slow to be of any use.  Still got to try!

What I have been trying is using a 0.5% Hydrogen Peroxide solution intranasally at least 2 pumps per nostril.   There hasn't been any burning or ill effects from this strength.

0.5% is a 1/6 strength of the commonly retailed 3% solution.  I have tried hourly sprays or 4 sprays before and after going out into the community.

I can wash my hands and using this I can wash my nasal passages.   Best of luck.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 22, 2020, 10:00:41 AM
Ran out of the 0.5% nasal spray so I have upped the strength to 1%.  It felt a bit like a mild onion sensation for a few minutes following a single spray per nostril.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 25, 2020, 03:25:33 AM
Ran out of the 0.5% nasal spray so I have upped the strength to 1%.  It felt a bit like a mild onion sensation for a few minutes following a single spray per nostril.
I don't recommend the 1% strength nasal spray.  Reduced strength being used again.

Haven't used it today.   It needs to be in a convenient place so it gets used more often.
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 29, 2020, 11:15:09 AM
I don't have the time to look into all of this.  What does it mean to you? 

"Here are the top topics at The Community Forum since last week.
https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/dr-robert-stratbucker-deposition-may-2002-in-wolf-case-10468920
Dr Robert Stratbucker deposition May 2002 in Wolf case
Started by samarkandy in General

https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/references-to-the-pairs-of-marks-on-jonbenets-body-made-by-the-coroner-in-his-10468999
References to the pairs of marks on JonBenet's body made by the coroner in his Autopsy Report
Started by samarkandy in General

https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community/post/the-very-faint-tiny-stun-gun-mark-on-jonbenets-neck-that-the-coroner-did-not-10469006
The very faint tiny stun gun mark on JonBenet's neck that the coroner did not make a record of in the Autopsy Report
Started by samarkandy in General
Thank you,
The Community Forum
https://jonbenetramseymurder.discussion.community
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on March 30, 2020, 09:21:52 AM
I think I've finally got over my Coronavirus infection!

Energy levels are back up again. 
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on April 05, 2020, 03:15:09 AM
What a time for a new development.  - an arrest imminent.

https://youtu.be/ZzTQCeW5-7I   "ABC NEWS 1/97 - Semen by Jonbenet Ramsey body?"

No not true:   it seems to be a very old news item released as a new video. Crime scene photos hit newsstands; county goes to court
STEVE PAULSON
January 14, 1997
https://apnews.com/eef25c25b1c81db41080962912b76cb1
Title: Re: New Theory accounting for the death of Jonbenet.
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 11, 2020, 03:27:59 AM
Hello readers - still here.  Finally back on the internet! 

25221
21853
03368  for 70 days or about 45 per day.

25253
25279
25305  being read but nothing new to report.

26330 Nearly 1000 reads in 2 weeks that is pretty good.