UK Justice Forum

Other High Profile Cases and Persons of Interest => Twenty years on, the mystery of who shot Jill Dando still prevails. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 04, 2019, 09:35:59 AM

Title: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 04, 2019, 09:35:59 AM
I'm reminded of the novel 'To kill a Mockingbird';

People generally see what they look for and hear what they listen for

I see a similarity especially around the eyes but that might just be my eyes!
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 10:02:27 AM
“Only two men had been regarded as possible suspects before George. Martyn Gilbert had allegedly sent sexually explicit emails about Dando and had moved from his home in Fulham to Australia two weeks after her murder. He was ruled out after an officer flew to meet him.

So was Steve Savva, a mechanic from east London, who was wrongly named as a possible assassin by a police informer.

Mr Campbell believed he and his team must have missed something obvious in the maelstrom which followed Dando's death, and suspected the killer was not a professional at all, but an obsessive who had a lucky getaway.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/03/jilldando.media2
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 10:11:07 AM
I'm reminded of the novel 'To kill a Mockingbird';

People generally see what they look for and hear what they listen for


That could have been written especially for you Holly
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 04, 2019, 10:25:30 AM
“Only two men had been regarded as possible suspects before George. Martyn Gilbert had allegedly sent sexually explicit emails about Dando and had moved from his home in Fulham to Australia two weeks after her murder. He was ruled out after an officer flew to meet him.

So was Steve Savva, a mechanic from east London, who was wrongly named as a possible assassin by a police informer.

Mr Campbell believed he and his team must have missed something obvious in the maelstrom which followed Dando's death, and suspected the killer was not a professional at all, but an obsessive who had a lucky getaway.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/03/jilldando.media2

If Jill was not under covert surveillance the obsessive not only had to have had a lucky getaway but also a lucky arrival too.  Now what are the chances of that happening? 

This crime was not random it was extremely well planned and executed. 
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 10:28:44 AM
If Jill was not under covert surveillance the obsessive not only had to have had a lucky getaway but also a lucky arrival too.  Now what are the chances of that happening? 

This crime was not random it was extremely well planned and executed.

You can attempt to rewrite history as many times as you like Holly but it won’t make an ounce of difference to the facts of this case.



Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 10:44:41 AM
“Photofit dispute

Mr George confirmed that he went to the offices of the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Miss Dando was shot and returned there two days later.

He told police he had wanted to account for his movements as people had said he was similar in appearance to a photofit of the killer.

The prosecution says the photofit was only released four days after the murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1349115.stm
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 10:52:35 AM
“Photofit dispute

Mr George confirmed that he went to the offices of the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Miss Dando was shot and returned there two days later.

He told police he had wanted to account for his movements as people had said he was similar in appearance to a photofit of the killer.

The prosecution says the photofit was only released four days after the murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1349115.stm

Barry George may well have told his mother of his concerns, who in turn told his sister Michelle Diskin Bates. I’ve never believed her story about when she claims she first heard of her brothers involvement in the murder.

Alternatively Barry George’s mother may have raised her concerns with her son. Following my experiences, nothing should be ruled out.


“Spinning a yarn, or storytelling, is what I do. But why do I think stories are so important? Well, for me, it's all about imagination; a story can carry us anywhere and everywhere… into a world where anything is possible.
Stories help us to put our own stories - our lives and our feelings - into context and explore how we feel about them, even in the most fantastical settings. https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/top-10-tips-spinning-good-yarn-real-storyteller/1230166
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 04, 2019, 01:23:35 PM
“Only two men had been regarded as possible suspects before George. Martyn Gilbert had allegedly sent sexually explicit emails about Dando and had moved from his home in Fulham to Australia two weeks after her murder. He was ruled out after an officer flew to meet him.

So was Steve Savva, a mechanic from east London, who was wrongly named as a possible assassin by a police informer.

Mr Campbell believed he and his team must have missed something obvious in the maelstrom which followed Dando's death, and suspected the killer was not a professional at all, but an obsessive who had a lucky getaway.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/03/jilldando.media2

Gun found by river is not Dando weapon - December 1999
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gun-found-by-river-is-not-dando-weapon-744071.html

July 29 1999
Police reveal bullet used to kill Dando was held in brass cartridge crimped in amateurish way.

December 9 1999
Police confirm London mechanic Steve Savva, 35, under surveillance for six months following tip, has been ruled out.

December 10 1999
Scientists say gun used was rare - smooth-barrelled 9mm semi-automatic, suggesting barrel was replaced with tubing. Only an amateur would use such a weapon

February 4 2000
Detectives fly to Sydney, Australia, to speak to Martyn Gilbert, who lived close to Dando and was allegedly fascinated with her. He left Britain two weeks after she died. Officers rule him out as a suspect.

“A former prime suspect in the Jill Dando inquiry has been jailed for stealing luxury Mercedes cars with a sidekick. Stephen Savva, 36,.....
http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/a-former-prime-suspect-in-the-jill-dando-inquiry-h/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6845491/Dramatic-interview-criminal-investigated-Jill-Dandos-murder.html
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: WHM on May 06, 2019, 03:18:43 PM
I'm reminded of the novel 'To kill a Mockingbird';

People generally see what they look for and hear what they listen for

I see a similarity especially around the eyes but that might just be my eyes!

Athough minus the goatee, I think the e-fit wasn't too far off:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/09/2720B48F00000578-3017544-image-a-12_1427702460098.jpg)

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/10/2720B49B00000578-3017544-image-m-4_1427707481641.jpg)
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 03:22:27 PM
Athough minus the goatee, I think the e-fit wasn't too far off:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/09/2720B48F00000578-3017544-image-a-12_1427702460098.jpg)

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/10/2720B49B00000578-3017544-image-m-4_1427707481641.jpg)

Welcome to the forum WHM  8((()*/

The surveillance of him just before his arrest also shows how much he’s changed physically since his imprisonment, though this was also carried out nearly a year after the murder.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 03:27:46 PM
If Jill was not under covert surveillance the obsessive not only had to have had a lucky getaway but also a lucky arrival too.  Now what are the chances of that happening? 

This crime was not random it was extremely well planned and executed.

That much is very clear Holly.  Something Barry George was totally incapable of.  Whoever killed her had to be following her movements by car or motorcycle and probably had assistant.  They made their move as she arrived at her flat, a flat she seldom visited. The quiet street provided the perfect opportunity for an assassin.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 06, 2019, 03:31:44 PM
Athough minus the goatee, I think the e-fit wasn't too far off:

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/09/2720B48F00000578-3017544-image-a-12_1427702460098.jpg)

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/30/10/2720B49B00000578-3017544-image-m-4_1427707481641.jpg)

Those who claim to have seen the perp leaving 29 Gowan Ave: neigbours Richard Hughes and Geoffrey Uphill-Brown were unable to pick out BG during an id parade. 
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 03:38:58 PM
Those who claim to have seen the perp leaving 29 Gowan Ave: neigbours Richard Hughes and Geoffrey Uphill-Brown were unable to pick out BG during an id parade.

And that's because it wasn't him.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 03:49:04 PM
Those who claim to have seen the perp leaving 29 Gowan Ave: neigbours Richard Hughes and Geoffrey Uphill-Brown were unable to pick out BG during an id parade.

Doesn’t mean it wasn’t Barry George!

Did they see the front or back of him? What did their witness statements describe?
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 03:57:47 PM
Those who claim to have seen the perp leaving 29 Gowan Ave: neigbours Richard Hughes and Geoffrey Uphill-Brown were unable to pick out BG during an id parade.

Your sweeping statement is inaccurate. What was their evidence given during trial?
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 08:11:42 PM
Your sweeping statement is inaccurate. What was their evidence given during trial?

Afraid Holly is right, Barry George was never 'identified' as the perp.  The only evidence against him at his first trial was a speck of GSR in the bottom of his coat pocket but that was later found to be inconclusive.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 08:18:26 PM
The only evidence against him at his first trial was a speck of GSR in the bottom of his coat pocket but that was later found to be inconclusive.

And has since been found to be of probative value
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 08:23:10 PM
Explain this

“Photofit dispute

Mr George confirmed that he went to the offices of the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Miss Dando was shot and returned there two days later.

He told police he had wanted to account for his movements as people had said he was similar in appearance to a photofit of the killer.

The prosecution says the photofit was only released four days after the murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1349115.stm

I have difficulty handling rejection", George confessed. "I become angry... it starts a chain of events which is beyond my control."
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 08:59:20 PM
Explain this

I have difficulty handling rejection", George confessed. "I become angry... it starts a chain of events which is beyond my control."

A lot can happen in a year, memories fade, people get confused.  BG had no motive for what occurred, nor had he the means or the opportunity, the three pillars of any investigation. The jury at his first trial were led to believe that that speck of GSR could only have come from the murder weapon, that was false.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:00:12 PM
And has since been found to be of probative value

Angela Shaw made an error in her reasoning

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RVQ6kReMLdw
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:01:30 PM
A lot can happen in a year, memories fade, people get confused.

Barry George’s memory didn’t fade though did it
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 09:04:53 PM
Barry George’s memory didn’t fade though did it

Can you remember everything you did on the 6th May 2018?  Thought not!

Most people can barely remember what they did at a specific time a few days ago never mind a year ago.

BG might have his problems, he has been convicted of some nasty goings-on towards women but he isn't a killer.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 06, 2019, 09:07:53 PM
Doesn’t mean it wasn’t Barry George!

Did they see the front or back of him? What did their witness statements describe?

You're right it does not mean it was not BG it just means that those who claim to have observed the perp leaving 26 Gowan Ave shortly after Richard Hughes heard Jill arrive followed by a scream were unable to pick out BG during an id parade.

I believe Richard Hughes view of the perp was partial but Geoffrey Upfill-Brown's was a full view lasting 4 - 5 secs.  (What a surname Upfill-Brown  @)(++(*)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/only-witness-to-jill-dandos-murder-221641
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 09:12:44 PM
BG was well known to the police given his previous convictions, he was an easy target once all other avenues of investigation had been exhausted.  The refusal to compensate him for 8 years wrongly spent in prison is a disgrace imo.

Unfortunately in the UK we live in a two tier society. People like George get shit on constantly while former defence ministers who leak national secrets face no criminal charges.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on May 06, 2019, 09:13:54 PM
And has since been found to be of probative value

Please explain.  As far as I am aware a single particle is meaningless.

William Clegg QC was BG's defence counsel at his 2nd trial and was able to convince the trial judge the particle should be ruled inadmissible which it was.  In what way do you believe the trial judge and William Clegg QC were wrong?
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:14:54 PM
Angela Shaw had an opportunity to hold her hands up and admit to having made a mistake but instead she chose to go on national TV in a quite desperate attempt to prove her fatally flawed argument
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Please explain.  As far as I am aware a single particle is meaningless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RVQ6kReMLdw

Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 09:17:27 PM
Please explain.  As far as I am aware a single particle is meaningless.

William Clegg QC was BG's defence counsel at his 2nd trial and was able to convince the trial judge the particle should be ruled inadmissible which it was.  In what way do you believe the trial judge and William Clegg QC were wrong?

That speck of GSR or whatever it was, could have even been a speck from a firework, was meaningless. Yet another example of SY grasping at straws.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:17:44 PM
Angela Shaw had an opportunity to hold her hands up and admit to having made a mistake but instead she chose to go on national TV in a quite desperate attempt to prove her fatally flawed argument

I suspect we haven’t heard the last of this
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:18:53 PM
That speck of GSR or whatever it was, could have even been a speck from a firework, was meaningless. Yet another example of SY grasping at straws.

Stick to the facts Holly/Angelo. You are attempting to rewrite history as per usual  *&^^&
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
Stick to the facts Holly/Angelo. You are attempting to rewrite history as per usual  *&^^&

No, you are.  The facts are clear, BG should never have been tried for the murder of Jill Dando.

There was NO EVIDENCE against him...end off!!
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:26:04 PM
William Clegg QC was BG's defence counsel at his 2nd trial and was able to convince the trial judge the particle should be ruled inadmissible which it was.  In what way do you believe the trial judge and William Clegg QC were wrong?

Refer to the prosecutors fallacy
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 09:27:38 PM
No, you are. 

Pantomime season is over
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2019, 09:38:51 PM
Pantomime season is over

I don't know why you are attempting to challenge BG's acquittal as there is no evidence he was ever involved.

Ta ta...adiós...Sayōnara.   &^&*%
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 06, 2019, 10:01:17 PM
I don't know why you are attempting to challenge BG's acquittal as there is no evidence he was ever involved.

Ta ta...adiós...Sayōnara.   &^&*%

In some cases one matching gunshot particle is of evidential value.

If fresh evidence becomes available Barry George could face a retrial.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on May 07, 2019, 12:35:33 PM
No, you are.  The facts are clear, BG should never have been tried for the murder of Jill Dando.

There was NO EVIDENCE against him...end off!!

There was and is a growing wealth of circumstantial evidence against Barry George. Your refusal to recognise is telling.
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on December 19, 2019, 12:25:52 PM
“Photofit dispute

Mr George confirmed that he went to the offices of the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Miss Dando was shot and returned there two days later.

He told police he had wanted to account for his movements as people had said he was similar in appearance to a photofit of the killer.

The prosecution says the photofit was only released four days after the murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1349115.stm

Dando accused 'set up alibi' at health centre by Nick Hopkins 15 May 2001 

The man accused of murdering Jill Dando told staff at a health centre that he was worried because he looked like the prime suspect and had been intimidated by the police on another occasion, the Old Bailey heard yesterday.

Barry George, 41, went to Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Ms Dando died in April 1999 and returned there two days later. On the first occasion, he turned up at the centre without an appointment and seemed highly agitated, the jury was told.

Elaine Hutton, the finance director of Hafad, said she had listened to parts of a conversation between George and her colleague Susan Bicknell at the office, in Greswell Street, Fulham, west London.

"I was not listening to the exact wording of the conversation between them. He was quite agitated. I was aware I might need to step in and help," said Ms Hutton.

She said George had a carrier bag of letters expressing dissatisfaction for some of the services he had received from the medical profession in general. She said her colleague had tried to stay calm and focused. She could not deal with him that day and was eventually able to placate him.

George was given an appointment for the following day, but then failed to show. However, he appeared on Wednesday April 28, two days after Ms Dando was shot.

"He said he had... gone to lay flowers at Jill's place on behalf of the church and that she was well respected in the borough," said Ms Hutton.

She said George had wanted to know the exact time of his visit to Hafad on the day Ms Dando had died. She had been unsure of the time but George had pressed her to be specific and was unhappy with her estimate.”
Read more here https://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/may/15/broadcasting.jilldando

Further excerpts
” It ran through Barry being questioned, his visit to HAFAD and Susan Bicknell’s meeting with him. It was Susan’s first day at HAFAD and she recorded the time of his visit. Two days later Barry called back asking staff to recall the exact time of his earlier visit. A week later Susan typed an account of her meeting with Barry for the police and she wrote the time of his visit as 11.50. That seriously undermined the Crown’s case that Barry shot Jill Dando after 11.30, returned home by a circuitous route to change his clothes and then went to HAFAD. There would not be enough time to do that and be at HAFAD before 12.10 according to Raphael who walked the Crown’s suggested route. But Susan revealed that at court she was unwell and suffered a breakdown shortly afterwards. She felt upset that her illness might have caused the jury to doubt her and that they might have convicted Barry as an indirect result of her illness.

Susan Bicknell says:
July 2, 2015 at 10:31 pm
“I join with Michelle Bates, in welcoming the UK’s first specialist miscarriage of justice law firm. Michelle’s brother Barry George, was my first client, on my first day (26th April 1999)at my new job of Welfare Rights Adviser at Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (HAFAD). I had been working in this role elsewhere, since 1993, having originally trained in a specialist CAB Welfare Rights Unit. It was an appalling experience for me and my family, when my evidence as to where Barry was, at the time Jill Dando was murdered, was ignored. I was never given the chance to explain in my original statement to the police or in court, as to why I was so sure about the time that I met Barry, which as Scott Lomax pointed out during the 2001 trial meant that Barry could not have have committed the crime he was accused of. For anyone to spend years in prison, for a crime they have not committed, to eventually be freed and then like Barry, to not receive any compensation, beggars belief. This is not justice and it is shameful that this has happened here in the UK, not just to Barry George, but also to dozens of other innocent people.
Susan Bicknell – Welfare Rights Adviser and Disability Advocate.

The above public statement can be found at the foot of this article in the comments section
https://www.thejusticegap.com/uks-first-specialist-miscarriage-of-justice-law-firm-goes-live/
Title: Re: E-fit lookalike?
Post by: Nicholas on December 19, 2019, 12:51:21 PM
The man accused of murdering Jill Dando told staff at a health centre that he was worried because he looked like the prime suspect 

How did Barry George KNOW he looked like the prime suspect on the day of Jill Dando’s murder if police didn’t release the E-Fit photo until 4 days after the murder?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1349115.stm