UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 05:43:03 PM

Title: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 05:43:03 PM
Afaik the McCanns employed 4 private agencies: Control Risks, Montedo 3, Oakley International and 1 other which escapes my memory if I ever read about it.

Bottom line is hundreds of thousands spent for what exactly?  How did these agencies advance the case if at all?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2019, 05:44:19 PM
Afaik the McCanns employed 4 private agencies: Control Risks, Montedo 3, Oakley International and 1 other which escapes my memory if I ever read about it.

Bottom line is hundreds of thousands spent for what exactly?  How did these agencies advance the case if at all?

They didn't... Stranger abductions can be impossible to solve

That's why the McCanns lobbied to get SY involved
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
They didn't... Stranger abductions can be impossible to solve

That's why the McCanns lobbied to get SY involved

I agree some stranger abductions are difficult to solve but I don't believe MM's disappearance is one of them.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2019, 05:53:27 PM
I agree some stranger abductions are difficult to solve but I don't believe MM's disappearance is one of them.
I would be delighted if you were right but I'm convinced you are not
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: jassi on August 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Afaik the McCanns employed 4 private agencies: Control Risks, Montedo 3, Oakley International and 1 other which escapes my memory if I ever read about it.

Bottom line is hundreds of thousands spent for what exactly?  How did these agencies advance the case if at all?

That'll be Edgar & Cowley, a pair of superanuated British detectives.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 05:56:29 PM
I agree some stranger abductions are difficult to solve but I don't believe MM's disappearance is one of them.
Can you please explain how you have allegedly managed to crack this case in a few weeks when several police forces and private detective agencies have so far apparently failed to do so in 12 years?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 06:25:26 PM
They didn't... Stranger abductions can be impossible to solve

That's why the McCanns lobbied to get SY involved

I agree.

The McCanns knew the case couldn't be solved, that's why they had no qualms about SY getting involved.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2019, 06:27:50 PM
I agree.

The McCanns knew the case couldn't be solved, that's why they had no qualms about SY getting involved.

thats a new excuse...
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Anthro on August 12, 2019, 06:29:25 PM
Holly, I think the other agency was Operation Omega?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 06:36:39 PM
I agree.

The McCanns knew the case couldn't be solved, that's why they had no qualms about SY getting involved.
I thought youíd solved it too?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 06:37:09 PM
I thought youíd solved it too?

It was solved in 2007 imo
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 06:44:03 PM
It was solved in 2007 imo
So explain how the parents knew it couldnít be solved?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 06:45:29 PM
So explain how the parents knew it couldnít be solved?

Because they know Maddie's body is unrecoverable imo
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 06:47:49 PM
Because they know Maddie's body is unrecoverable imo
Of course.  A pair of criminal masterminds who committed the perfect murder, I was forgetting. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 06:51:58 PM
Of course.  A pair of criminal masterminds who committed the perfect murder, I was forgetting.

You don't need to be a mastermind to use a wheelie bin.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 06:55:39 PM
You don't need to be a mastermind to use a wheelie bin.
Why donít all murderers use wheelie bins?  Not as brilliant as the McCanns I guess!
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 07:05:34 PM
Why donít all murderers use wheelie bins?  Not as brilliant as the McCanns I guess!

Some parents do. It's not that uncommon.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 07:13:45 PM
Some parents do. It's not that uncommon.
How do we know if itís such a foolproof method for disposing of unwanted children?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2019, 07:17:52 PM
How do we know if itís such a foolproof method for disposing of unwanted children?

Ah well, nobody ever knows you see.  That's the point.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 07:18:45 PM
How do we know if itís such a foolproof method for disposing of unwanted children?

It's not without risk of discovery & some parents spill the beans on where they put the body when under interrogation. But when I kill a kid, I'll be using the bins for sure.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 07:22:32 PM
It's not without risk of discovery & some parents spill the beans on where they put the body when under interrogation. But when I kill a kid, I'll be using the bins for sure.
But the McCanns were made of sterner stuff and KNEW the body would never be discovered, thatís what makes them master criminals. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 07:35:55 PM
But the McCanns were made of sterner stuff and KNEW the body would never be discovered, thatís what makes them master criminals.

Not really, weren't the PJ busy probing Robert Murat & looking for Tanner Man for several months before the McCann's were interrogated?  By which point Maddie would have been buried under several thousand tonnes of trash I'd imagine.

As far as lobbying SY goes, if she did end up in the trash, I think they'd be pretty damn certain by then that she'd never be recovered.
 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 07:43:31 PM
Can you please explain how you have allegedly managed to crack this case in a few weeks when several police forces and private detective agencies have so far apparently failed to do so in 12 years?

If I have cracked the case in a few weeks then it will be for those you have mentioned to explain why they overlooked what to my mind is obvious. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 07:50:03 PM
Not really, weren't the PJ busy probing Robert Murat & looking for Tanner Man for several months before the McCann's were interrogated?  By which point Maddie would have been buried under several thousand tonnes of trash I'd imagine.

As far as lobbying SY goes, if she did end up in the trash, I think they'd be pretty damn certain by then that she'd never be recovered.
So the McCanns KNEW that the police would fall for their fake abduction plan straght away and wouldnít be questioned for months by which time they KNEW the body would be buried under 10 tonnes of rubbish.  As I said, fiendish clever criminal masterminds those McCanns!
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 07:53:28 PM
Holly, I think the other agency was Operation Omega?

Thanks.  I had a little Google. It appears OO was headed up by Kevin Halligen of Oakley International:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42679242
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 07:53:45 PM
So the McCanns KNEW that the police would fall for their fake abduction plan straght away and wouldnít be questioned for months by which time they KNEW the body would be buried under 10 tonnes of rubbish.  As I said, fiendish clever criminal masterminds those McCanns!

No, they just got lucky.

Police forces are more sceptical of missing persons cases these days.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 07:59:15 PM
That'll be Edgar & Cowley, a pair of superanuated British detectives.

Thanks.  I'm familiar with Edgar as in Dave Edgar but not the other name you mention. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw6tAlflMj0
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 08:00:52 PM
I would be delighted if you were right but I'm convinced you are not

How on earth can you be convinced when you have no idea about my theory and suspects unless you have direct access to the emails I sent to OP and FM site and/or those on the receiving end are sharing info with you.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 12, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
How on earth can you be convinced when you have no idea about my theory and suspects unless you have direct access to the emails I sent to OP and FM site and/or those on the receiving end are sharing info with you.

I have enough evidence to be convinced...I dont need to see your theory or emails...shall we see who is right..

Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 12, 2019, 08:03:56 PM
No, they just got lucky.

Police forces are more sceptical of missing persons cases these days.
What rather than in the olden days, like in 2007?  Hilarious. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: jassi on August 12, 2019, 08:04:21 PM
Thanks.  I'm familiar with Edgar as in Dave Edgar but not the other name you mention. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw6tAlflMj0


Arthur Cowley  -  https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=edgar+and+cowley+detectives

Recruited by 'windows' Kennedy, I think
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 08:08:53 PM

Arthur Cowley  -  https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=edgar+and+cowley+detectives

Recruited by 'windows' Kennedy, I think

Thanks. 

Can anyone explain why there's no females involved?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 12, 2019, 08:19:00 PM
Thanks. 

Can anyone explain why there's no females involved?

Does gender make a difference to the outcome of investigations?

Why aren't there any transsexuals involved?  Maybe that would help.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 12, 2019, 09:46:48 PM
Does gender make a difference to the outcome of investigations?

Why aren't there any transsexuals involved?  Maybe that would help.

I don't think the best decisions and outcomes are produced by homogeneous groups of people and research tends to support this.   
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 13, 2019, 01:26:54 PM
It's not without risk of discovery & some parents spill the beans on where they put the body when under interrogation. But when I kill a kid, I'll be using the bins for sure.

There's an ex policeman who now does stand up comedy. He's very funny. I was listening to him on Radio 4 Extra on Sunday evening. He said that if a body is found with a knife sticking out of it a whole murder squad turn up. CCTV is checked, evidence is bagged and tested, witnesses are sought, it might even be on Crimewatch. If someone is run over one traffic cop turns up. Then he said "So if you're thinking of killing someone......"
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 09:23:24 PM
But the McCanns were made of sterner stuff and KNEW the body would never be discovered, thatís what makes them master criminals.

Searchers find the body, any sedation/injury is blamed on the abductor. Parents get the body back to give it a decent burial and avoid charges. Job done.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 13, 2019, 09:35:19 PM
Searchers find the body, any sedation/injury is blamed on the abductor. Parents get the body back to give it a decent burial and avoid charges. Job done.

Have you thought of sending this to SY .. the PJ ...the portuguese ambassador
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 13, 2019, 09:38:55 PM
Searchers find the body, any sedation/injury is blamed on the abductor. Parents get the body back to give it a decent burial and avoid charges. Job done.
Why would sedation / injury be blamed on an abductor in your world?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 11:08:48 PM
Have you thought of sending this to SY .. the PJ ...the portuguese ambassador

Now why would I do that ? If thereís any truth in it theyíll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Erngath on August 13, 2019, 11:13:51 PM
Now why would I do that ? If thereís any truth in it theyíll find out soon enough.

But as yet after all the years of investigation, "they" have not!
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 11:14:06 PM
Why would sedation / injury be blamed on an abductor in your world?

Why not ? The question of sedation to facilitate an abduction had already been voiced by the parents on the 5th. Why would they need to know the answer to this particular question ? Did it help to get their daughter back ? Were they laying the groundwork perhaps just in case the body was found ?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 11:16:04 PM
But as yet after all the years of investigation, "they" have not!

So what have Ďtheyí found out ? Do we know ?

Until an arrest is made we will be told nothing.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Erngath on August 13, 2019, 11:28:19 PM
So what have Ďtheyí found out ? Do we know ?

Until an arrest is made we will be told nothing.

Doesn't seem likely that after all these years " they" are still investigating Madeleine's parents as suspects in her disappearance. IMO.
Obviously not in your opinion of course.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 11:32:24 PM
Doesn't seem likely that after all these years " they" are still investigating Madeleine's parents as suspects in her disappearance. IMO.
Obviously not in your opinion of course.

They are still ? Have they been investigating them all this time ? Perhaps a piece of information came only recently to the investigation pointing in that direction?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 13, 2019, 11:34:32 PM
Why not ? The question of sedation to facilitate an abduction had already been voiced by the parents on the 5th. Why would they need to know the answer to this particular question ? Did it help to get their daughter back ? Were they laying the groundwork perhaps just in case the body was found ?
It would be piss poor policing to assume that a regularly sedated child who had died in a fall was killed by an abductor, especially as there would be no apparent motive for such an abduction. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 13, 2019, 11:36:06 PM
They are still ? Have they been investigating them all this time ? Perhaps a piece of information came only recently to the investigation pointing in that direction?
Give us a clue as to the sort of information that you think might recently have made the police start investigating the McCanns. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 13, 2019, 11:54:04 PM
It would be piss poor policing to assume that a regularly sedated child who had died in a fall was killed by an abductor, especially as there would be no apparent motive for such an abduction.

Regularly sedated ? Who mentioned anyone being regularly sedated ?

Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 07:15:29 AM
Regularly sedated ? Who mentioned anyone being regularly sedated ?
So you think the McCanns only sedated their kids the one time?  So any tests on the twins or Madeleineís body would have revealed no habitual sedation and could simply have been explained as a result of malevolent interference by a third party in your opinion?  So the reluctance of the McCanns to rush their babies to hospital that night was down to what, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2019, 07:37:31 AM
So you think the McCanns only sedated their kids the one time?  So any tests on the twins or Madeleineís body would have revealed no habitual sedation and could simply have been explained as a result of malevolent interference by a third party in your opinion?  So the reluctance of the McCanns to rush their babies to hospital that night was down to what, in your opinion?

Now we are looking at the possible methods of getting a long lasting sedative into three children.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 08:02:47 AM
Now we are looking at the possible methods of getting a long lasting sedative into three children.
Name a long lasting sedative (how long is ďlong?Ē), and describe how it is usually administered.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
So you think the McCanns only sedated their kids the one time?  So any tests on the twins or Madeleineís body would have revealed no habitual sedation and could simply have been explained as a result of malevolent interference by a third party in your opinion?  So the reluctance of the McCanns to rush their babies to hospital that night was down to what, in your opinion?

An abductor sedating one child to abduct it would be easy to explain away. To take the time to sedate the three, even though the twins were not being targeted for abduction, not so much.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 08:50:00 AM
Name a long lasting sedative (how long is ďlong?Ē), and describe how it is usually administered.

Explain to me how Madeleine was abducted, even though her grandmother said that she would scream merry hell if lifted by a stranger?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2019, 09:00:54 AM
Name a long lasting sedative (how long is ďlong?Ē), and describe how it is usually administered.

It needs to keep the twins in a deep sleep. Deep enough to suggest to their mother that she needs to check that they are breathing.

In my opinion any such substance would need to be injected or given orally.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2019, 09:35:02 AM
This is how I am able to move on and explore other possibilities with an open mind.  The science of sleep is firmly established across all relevant disciplines with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from.  I have uploaded the youtube vid of a sleeping SM fast asleep across GM's shoulder having been carried off the EasyJet flight from Faro to UK; There's considerable background noise from GM talking into a microphone, vehicles moving around and the constant whirring of aircraft engines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepDNi7WSYs

Some will say well maybe the McCanns sedated the children for the flight.  In which case why is SM fast asleep and AM wide awake? 

Then you have cases of children abducted from their beds who haven't been in a position to call out eg Alesha MacPhail.  This case involved a post-mortem and no sedatives were involved.  Some will argue well the perp may have covered the child's mouth and this maybe true but it didn't involve sedation.

Unless someone can come up with something radically different I will not be making/responding to any further posts re sedation as its a complete waste of time.

And yes I know KM was an anesthetist but this is completely different and has no bearing on the science of sleep which is covered by psychologists and neuro scientists
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2019, 10:51:42 AM
This is how I am able to move on and explore other possibilities with an open mind.  The science of sleep is firmly established across all relevant disciplines with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from.  I have uploaded the youtube vid of a sleeping SM fast asleep across GM's shoulder having been carried off the EasyJet flight from Faro to UK; There's considerable background noise from GM talking into a microphone, vehicles moving around and the constant whirring of aircraft engines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepDNi7WSYs

Some will say well maybe the McCanns sedated the children for the flight.  In which case why is SM fast asleep and AM wide awake? 

Then you have cases of children abducted from their beds who haven't been in a position to call out eg Alesha MacPhail.  This case involved a post-mortem and no sedatives were involved.  Some will argue well the perp may have covered the child's mouth and this maybe true but it didn't involve sedation.

Unless someone can come up with something radically different I will not be making/responding to any further posts re sedation as its a complete waste of time.

And yes I know KM was an anesthetist but this is completely different and has no bearing on the science of sleep which is covered by psychologists and neuro scientists

You are dismissing Kate's opinion and proferring an opinion of your own. Even if you're right and she's wrong that doesn't explain why she took no action if she truly believed her children had been sedated by a stranger.  You may have decided to ignore her evidence and 'move on' but her evidence still needs noting, discussing and explaining imo.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 11:52:24 AM
This is how I am able to move on and explore other possibilities with an open mind.  The science of sleep is firmly established across all relevant disciplines with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from.  I have uploaded the youtube vid of a sleeping SM fast asleep across GM's shoulder having been carried off the EasyJet flight from Faro to UK; There's considerable background noise from GM talking into a microphone, vehicles moving around and the constant whirring of aircraft engines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepDNi7WSYs

Some will say well maybe the McCanns sedated the children for the flight.  In which case why is SM fast asleep and AM wide awake? 

Then you have cases of children abducted from their beds who haven't been in a position to call out eg Alesha MacPhail.  This case involved a post-mortem and no sedatives were involved.  Some will argue well the perp may have covered the child's mouth and this maybe true but it didn't involve sedation.

Unless someone can come up with something radically different I will not be making/responding to any further posts re sedation as its a complete waste of time.

And yes I know KM was an anesthetist but this is completely different and has no bearing on the science of sleep which is covered by psychologists and neuro scientists

Did Alesha McPhail know her abductor? Probably as where she was holidaying was a close knit community. Does this explain the ease by which she was abducted, perhaps ? Or as you say, he simply covered her mouth.

And I can perhaps believe that one child may have stayed asleep but all three ? Really ?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2019, 12:10:04 PM
Did Alesha McPhail know her abductor? Probably as where she was holidaying was a close knit community. Does this explain the ease by which she was abducted, perhaps ? Or as you say, he simply covered her mouth.

And I can perhaps believe that one child may have stayed asleep but all three ? Really ?

Yes.  Consider the case of Sophie Hook abducted from a tent whilst other children slept on. The White House Farm murders involve 2 six year old twin boys sleeping through commotion which at the very least involved one twin shot at point blank range several times whilst the other twin slept on only inches away. 
 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2019, 01:18:23 PM
Yes.  Consider the case of Sophie Hook abducted from a tent whilst other children slept on. The White House Farm murders involve 2 six year old twin boys sleeping through commotion which at the very least involved one twin shot at point blank range several times whilst the other twin slept on only inches away.

Is there any more of Kate McCann's evidence which you wish to contradict?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2019, 04:06:32 PM

Dear Holly,  I think that you are doing a really good job.  But you don't have the long term knowledge that some of us have.  Consequentially, no one is buying it because you don't know what you are talking about in intricacies.

Contrary to your opinion I spent some time on The Bamber Board when I was frequently attacked for my opinions.  And I was a Moderator at that time.  I was once called upon to sort a really nasty punch up just because I was logged on to The Forum as a Moderator at the time.

I deleted a couple of really nasty posts, and then got slaughtered and told to piss off because I didn't know what I was talking about.  I bailed out on The Bamber Forum at that point.  Jeremy Bamber doesn't need me.

But now you are telling us all that you understand The McCann Forum when clearly you can't.

This should be PM stuff, but you do not invite communication from me.  And I only ever respond to PMs anyway.  I never inflict my opinions by PM unsolicited.

You completely missed that I did try with The Bamber Forum.  It was only John and Angelo, according to you, when in fact I retired licking my wounds.

That really hurt.  But at least I understand this bunch.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 04:07:38 PM
Yes.  Consider the case of Sophie Hook abducted from a tent whilst other children slept on. The White House Farm murders involve 2 six year old twin boys sleeping through commotion which at the very least involved one twin shot at point blank range several times whilst the other twin slept on only inches away.

In the case of Sophie Hook the children stayed asleep while the abduction took place but did they wake after she was discovered missing ? The McCann twins didnít.

In the Bamber case all the the inhabitants of the house were killed so we have no idea if one twin watched the other being shot or not.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2019, 04:45:56 PM
In the case of Sophie Hook the children stayed asleep while the abduction took place but did they wake after she was discovered missing ? The McCann twins didnít.

In the Bamber case all the the inhabitants of the house were killed so we have no idea if one twin watched the other being shot or not.

I don't want to think about that.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 04:47:17 PM
I don't want to think about that.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2019, 04:54:50 PM
Indeed.

Sometime it is all that we can do, albeit for different reasons.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
An abductor sedating one child to abduct it would be easy to explain away. To take the time to sedate the three, even though the twins were not being targeted for abduction, not so much.
It wouldnít be for the McCanns to explain it, it would be for the police.  All three kids could, for example, have been sedated at teatime by a member of staff.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 05:35:33 PM
Explain to me how Madeleine was abducted, even though her grandmother said that she would scream merry hell if lifted by a stranger?
How do you think any child is abducted?  Do they all scream merry hell when abducted , or was this a particular attribute of Madeleineís?  Just because her grandma thinks thatís how she would behave doesnít mean it would have happened that way.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 05:36:24 PM
It needs to keep the twins in a deep sleep. Deep enough to suggest to their mother that she needs to check that they are breathing.

In my opinion any such substance would need to be injected or given orally.
Such as?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 05:42:27 PM
Did Alesha McPhail know her abductor? Probably as where she was holidaying was a close knit community. Does this explain the ease by which she was abducted, perhaps ? Or as you say, he simply covered her mouth.

And I can perhaps believe that one child may have stayed asleep but all three ? Really ?
There is no evidence that Alesha McPhail had ever met her killer before and even if she had once clapped eyes on him, so what?  Children of 3 or 4 are not as wary of strangers as they should be, I donít think recognising or not recognising an intruder in the bedroom has that much of a bearing on the childís immediate behaviour.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2019, 05:46:30 PM
There is no evidence that Alesha McPhail had ever met her killer before and even if she had once clapped eyes on him, so what?  Children of 3 or 4 are not as wary of strangers as they should be, I donít think recognising or not recognising an intruder in the bedroom has that much of a bearing on the childís immediate behaviour.

Sounds like an argument in favour of using a babysitter.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Davel on August 14, 2019, 05:51:47 PM
Sounds like an argument in favour of using a babysitter.

sounds like....
involve what the McCanns said/did or didn't say/do,
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 05:54:06 PM
Sounds like an argument in favour of using a babysitter.
I have never argued against it.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
sounds like....
involve what the McCanns said/did or didn't say/do,

Sounds like what I said, nowt like what you said.

Next!
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2019, 06:02:40 PM
Sounds like an argument in favour of using a babysitter.

In her own home with her father and grand parents present?  You need to think about what you say.
Your comment is disgusting.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 14, 2019, 06:38:12 PM
In her own home with her father and grand parents present?  You need to think about what you say.
Your comment is disgusting.

You missed the relevance entirely.

Please keep the insults to yourself.

TY.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 14, 2019, 07:31:59 PM
In her own home with her father and grand parents present?  You need to think about what you say.
Your comment is disgusting.

Alesha may well have seen her murderer. He did come into contact with the family (dads side) as drugs were bought and sold apparently.  The b@stard is seeking to have his sentence reduced due to his 'young age' when commiting the crime. Innit great having legal aid?

Edit: changed name from April to Alesha. I was discussing April earlier on another blog.


Thanks VS for noticing that.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 08:45:48 PM
April may well have seen her murderer. He did come into contact with the family (dads side) as drugs were bought and sold apparently.  The b@stard is seeking to have his sentence reduced due to his 'young age' when commiting the crime. Innit great having legal aid?
Her name was Alesha.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 14, 2019, 09:47:39 PM
There is no evidence that Alesha McPhail had ever met her killer before and even if she had once clapped eyes on him, so what?  Children of 3 or 4 are not as wary of strangers as they should be, I donít think recognising or not recognising an intruder in the bedroom has that much of a bearing on the childís immediate behaviour.

The child asleep...the abductor creeps into their bedroom and clamps a hand over their mouth giving them no time to scream. This is possibly what happened to Alesha. We know this didnít happen to Madeleine if the sightings are of her. In that case she was either still asleep, unlikely, sedated or dead. If she was sedated t stretches credibility that the twinís unresponsive state didnít mean that they werenít also sedated.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 14, 2019, 10:34:21 PM
The child asleep...the abductor creeps into their bedroom and clamps a hand over their mouth giving them no time to scream. This is possibly what happened to Alesha. We know this didnít happen to Madeleine if the sightings are of her. In that case she was either still asleep, unlikely, sedated or dead. If she was sedated t stretches credibility that the twinís unresponsive state didnít mean that they werenít also sedated.
Youíre assuming Smithman was carrying Madeleine.  Youíre assuming a sedative could not have been given to Madeleine without also being given to the twins.  Youíre assuming a child that is taken awake could not have been rendered unconscious after being removed.  Youíre assuming a child cannot be removed from her bed without being wakened. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: barrier on August 15, 2019, 06:57:10 AM
Youíre assuming Smithman was carrying Madeleine.  Youíre assuming a sedative could not have been given to Madeleine without also being given to the twins.  Youíre assuming a child that is taken awake could not have been rendered unconscious after being removed.  Youíre assuming a child cannot be removed from her bed without being wakened.
Take the assumption that Tannerman is an alleged abductor,the description of  the child being carried is easier to see a scenario of sedation.Just to clarify,nope I don't think it happened this way.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 07:14:13 AM
Take the assumption that Tannerman is an alleged abductor,the description of  the child being carried is easier to see a scenario of sedation.Just to clarify,nope I don't think it happened this way.
Even easier to see a scenario where the child was lifted asleep, no need for sedation.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: barrier on August 15, 2019, 07:16:11 AM
Even easier to see a scenario where the child was lifted asleep, no need for sedation.
From a nice warm bed to the cold night air,seriously?.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 07:20:20 AM
From a nice warm bed to the cold night air,seriously?.
Yes, seriously.  If it wasnít Madeleine then it was some other child in a similar situation - was she sedated too?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 15, 2019, 09:05:17 AM
In my opinion the question isn't whether one, two or three children were sedated or not. The question is why the idea was raised but not acted upon.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 15, 2019, 10:44:15 AM
Even easier to see a scenario where the child was lifted asleep, no need for sedation.

And the twins ? Oh of course they were very, very, very heavy sleepers too....except possibly when they were woken by doors being opened or lights being switched on.

Kate

ĎI was looking at Mís bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that M or is that the bedding. and I couldnít quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now, but at the time, I was thinking I didnít want to put the light on cos I didnít wanna wake themí

Gerry

ĎPart of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didnít want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isnít it.í
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 15, 2019, 01:33:46 PM
And the twins ? Oh of course they were very, very, very heavy sleepers too....except possibly when they were woken by doors being opened or lights being switched on.

Kate

ĎI was looking at Mís bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that M or is that the bedding. and I couldnít quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now, but at the time, I was thinking I didnít want to put the light on cos I didnít wanna wake themí

Gerry

ĎPart of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didnít want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isnít it.í



To be fair Faith. The McCanns never claimed the children were deep sleepers- all this came from the supporters, which take on the 'OMG they never said that did they we better try and fix this' job.

Every inconsistancy is re written by supporters. You really can't help but laugh them off.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 15, 2019, 01:52:40 PM


To be fair Faith. The McCanns never claimed the children were deep sleepers- all this came from the supporters, which take on the 'OMG they never said that did they we better try and fix this' job.

Every inconsistancy is re written by supporters. You really can't help but laugh them off.

Afaik the McCann children slept normally meaning they would enter all stages of sleep 1 - 4 with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from.

Where have the McCanns claimed the children were problem sleepers or light sleepers leading up to the trip to PDL and during?

And what has any of this got to do with the thread title?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 15, 2019, 02:04:32 PM
Afaik the McCann children slept normally meaning they would enter all stages of sleep 1 - 4 with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from.

Where have the McCanns claimed the children were problem sleepers or light sleepers leading up to the trip to PDL and during?

And what has any of this got to do with the thread title?

I know you feel you are quite the expert on sleep matters. However I will stick with those who know better- The parents. they gave  a good deal of information which I now bet they could withdraw.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread title. You did say  you would remove some posts but not all.  perhaps you should go back to the first post which went off topic and delete from there.  If you just deleted mine that would be  erm discrimination of sorts.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 15, 2019, 02:44:19 PM
I know you feel you are quite the expert on sleep matters. However I will stick with those who know better- The parents. they gave  a good deal of information which I now bet they could withdraw.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread title. You did say  you would remove some posts but not all.  perhaps you should go back to the first post which went off topic and delete from there.  If you just deleted mine that would be  erm discrimination of sorts.

Did I say I was an expert on sleep?  I thought I said I studied psychology in the 80's which covers the science of sleep?  Not sure how this would make me an expert?

If you think I am going to retrospectively remove pages of off-topic posts most of which were posted when I was not on the forum then you are mistaken.  Its quite unbelievable that adults here appear to expect unpaid moderators to clear up after them like small children.  I will take the matter up with admin and suggest those who constantly flout the rules by posting off-topic are banned.  I take the view post quality is preferable to quantity.   

Given it seems many wish to post about sleep/sedation, including yourself, I have started up a new thread and look forward to reading the on-topic posts. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 15, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Did I say I was an expert on sleep?  I thought I said I studied psychology in the 80's which covers the science of sleep?  Not sure how this would make me an expert?

If you think I am going to retrospectively remove pages of off-topic posts most of which were posted when I was not on the forum then you are mistaken.  Its quite unbelievable that adults here appear to expect unpaid moderators to clear up after them like small children.  I will take the matter up with admin and suggest those who constantly flout the rules by posting off-topic are banned.  I take the view post quality is preferable to quantity.   

Given it seems many wish to post about sleep/sedation, including yourself, I have started up a new thread and look forward to reading the on-topic posts.

Thank you for the thread AND the wrist slap!.  The point I was making is you claimed about your psychology in the 80's which covers the science of sleep?  Psychology is a psudo science IMO. absolutely no one is an expert on sleep. Sleep patterns change with many factors.

I take the view post quality is preferable to quantity.   #me too!

Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 05:43:40 PM
And the twins ? Oh of course they were very, very, very heavy sleepers too....except possibly when they were woken by doors being opened or lights being switched on.

Kate

ĎI was looking at Mís bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that M or is that the bedding. and I couldnít quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now, but at the time, I was thinking I didnít want to put the light on cos I didnít wanna wake themí

Gerry

ĎPart of the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didnít want to disturb them. Sigh. Stupid, now, isnít it.í
We have seen evidnce of on of the twins being a very very very deep sleeper, unless you believe he was druggd on the journey home?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 15, 2019, 05:47:40 PM
We have seen evidnce of on of the twins being a very very very deep sleeper, unless you believe he was druggd on the journey home?

No we haven't.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 05:52:08 PM
No we haven't.
Yes we have. 
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 15, 2019, 06:02:30 PM
Yes we have.

No we havenít.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 06:03:23 PM
No we havenít.
Yes we have.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 15, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
Yes we have.

Do you ever see Seanís face ?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 15, 2019, 06:12:55 PM
Guys a new thread has been started to cover sleep and sedation. 

Any further posts here about anything other than thread topic will be deleted on sight.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 06:22:18 PM
Do you ever see Seanís face ?
I didnít need to, it was perfectly  clear from his floppy demeanour that he was not awake.  Awake toddlers do not just lie still on their fatherís shoulders without moving.  Compare Amelie to Sean for proof of this. You may prefer to deny the evidence of your own eyes, Iím really not bothered.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 15, 2019, 11:36:56 PM
I didn’t need to, it was perfectly  clear from his floppy demeanour that he was not awake.  Awake toddlers do not just lie still on their father’s shoulders without moving.  Compare Amelie to Sean for proof of this. You may prefer to deny the evidence of your own eyes, I’m really not bothered.

My, my you’re morphing into Davel.

If you didn’t see if Sean was asleep then you can’t claim that he was.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 15, 2019, 11:40:25 PM
My, my youíre morphing into Davel.

If you didnít see if Sean was asleep then you canís claim that he was.
Yes I can, and so can anyone with eyes in their head and a fully functioning brain.  I suggest you review the video evidence and come back here to tell us that in your opinion both twins were awake.  Then I will enjoy a good laugh at this ridiculous conclusion.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2019, 07:27:20 AM
Afaik the McCanns employed 4 private agencies: Control Risks, Montedo 3, Oakley International and 1 other which escapes my memory if I ever read about it.

Bottom line is hundreds of thousands spent for what exactly?  How did these agencies advance the case if at all?

I'm not sure what the role of Control Risks was. I have the impression that it was to gather evidence for a possible defence.

Metodo 3 seemed to have been found by Brian Kennedy. They generated a lot of sightings but not much else imo.

Oakley just appeared, like Control Risks did. The Smith efits seem to have been their achievement.

Dave Edgar found the Australian woman in Barcelona, but, it seems, publicised it without checking any of the facts.

On the whole they helped with publicity, but didn't advance the case at all imo.

Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Faithlilly on August 16, 2019, 11:46:42 AM
Yes I can, and so can anyone with eyes in their head and a fully functioning brain.  I suggest you review the video evidence and come back here to tell us that in your opinion both twins were awake.  Then I will enjoy a good laugh at this ridiculous conclusion.

At no time do you see Seanís face.

His sisterís face you can see and she is very much awake....so how do we know that sheís a Ďheavy sleeper Ď when all the evidence points against it ?
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
A new thread has been set up to discuss sleep/sedation please take your discussions there.

Any further off-topic posts will be removed on sight.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2019, 12:21:55 PM
I'm not sure what the role of Control Risks was. I have the impression that it was to gather evidence for a possible defence.

Metodo 3 seemed to have been found by Brian Kennedy. They generated a lot of sightings but not much else imo.

Oakley just appeared, like Control Risks did. The Smith efits seem to have been their achievement.

Dave Edgar found the Australian woman in Barcelona, but, it seems, publicised it without checking any of the facts.

On the whole they helped with publicity, but didn't advance the case at all imo.

I was reading recently about an investigator attached to Metodo 3 I believe who went undercover trying to infiltrate paedophile and child trafficking rings in an attempt to discover MM's whereabouts.  He appeared in the Netflix docu.  You will probably know the name with your encyclopedic knowledge of the case.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2019, 01:59:04 PM
I was reading recently about an investigator attached to Metodo 3 I believe who went undercover trying to infiltrate paedophile and child trafficking rings in an attempt to discover MM's whereabouts.  He appeared in the Netflix docu.  You will probably know the name with your encyclopedic knowledge of the case.

Julian PeribaŮez. He is now seen as some kind of expert by The Sun, who printed his opinions on the Nora Quoirin case recently.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9726789/nora-quoirin-cops-slammed-by-madeleine-mccann-investigator/
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 16, 2019, 03:42:14 PM
At no time do you see Seanís face.

His sisterís face you can see and she is very much awake....so how do we know that sheís a Ďheavy sleeper Ď when all the evidence points against it ?
When have I claimed that we have evidence that Amelie was a very heavy sleeper?  We have evidence that one twin was, evidence which you refuse to accept because you need to see his eyes closed.  I am sufficiently intelligent and perceptive to be able to recognise that Sean is fast asleep in that clip without needing to check the state of his eyes.  If ome twin is a very heavy sleeper then it is not beyond the realm of fantasy that both twins are, though granted we have no evidence that both are, a claim I never made in the first place.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on August 16, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
A new thread has been set up to discuss sleep/sedation please take your discussions there.

Any further off-topic posts will be removed on sight.
Please do not remove my reply to Faithlilly, there is no appropriate thread currently running where I can simply post a reply without it being completely irrelevant to the posts that have gone before.
Title: Re: Private Agencies Employed By McCanns
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2019, 03:53:20 PM
Please do not remove my reply to Faithlilly, there is no appropriate thread currently running where I can simply post a reply without it being completely irrelevant to the posts that have gone before.

I'm unable to move posts around.  So I've done what I can and transferred the posts here:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10974.msg552795#msg552795

Any further off topic posts on this thread will be removed.