UK Justice Forum

Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: G-Unit on March 12, 2020, 03:32:19 PM

Title: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2020, 03:32:19 PM
According to Jeremy Bamber there were three .22 rifles at the farm; an auto, a bolt action and an air rifle. There were also four or five shotguns; one a .410 single barrelled shot gun.

According to witnesses Nevill Bamber was very careful to ensure the guns were stored safely at all times. To store a gun safely it must be locked in a gun cabinet and ammunition should be stored in a separate lockable container.

The guns at the farm were not stored safely as police officer DI Cook noted. There was a cupboard, he said,  where the family sometimes kept guns, but the only gun in it was a broken shotgun, a cardboard box containing ammunition, and various other items including a poker and a dartboard.

It was David Boutflower who removed the guns from the house. Two 12 bore shotguns were in the downstairs shower room and on the stairs leading up from the kitchen he found the air rifle and the .410 shotgun. In the cupboard in the den he found Nevill's 12 bore shotgun in a brown case.

Assuming that the police took the murder weapon there seems to have been another 22 rifle missing; the bolt action one, unless Jeremy had misremembered.

So DI Jones failed to see a shotgun case complete with gun and various other cardboard boxes, two of which contained silencers.
[All from CAL's book]
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 12, 2020, 07:16:04 PM
I would just like to clarify that 'broken' can mean literally broken as in malfunctioning or in the case of a shotgun it can mean a mechanical feature whereby the barrel is pulled away from the the butt to load cartridges.

Both existed at WHF: a broken shotgun which was rusty and in pieces found in an upstairs room.  And a broken functioning shotgun as in barrel apart from butt was found by firearms officers in NB's office leaning against the wall.

Anthony Pargeter kept his firearms at WHF.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 12, 2020, 07:28:33 PM
I have just checked PC Collins' wit stat and he states he found the shotgun in the cupboard but a soc image shows it leaning against the wall?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=160.0;attach=6056;image
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 12, 2020, 07:49:32 PM
I have just checked PC Collins' wit stat and he states he found the shotgun in the cupboard but a soc image shows it leaning against the wall?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=160.0;attach=6056;image (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=160.0;attach=6056;image)
He probably broke it open to make sure it wasn't loaded.

Shotgun photo and PC Collins' statement resized...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2020, 08:08:43 PM
I would just like to clarify that 'broken' can mean literally broken as in malfunctioning or in the case of a shotgun it can mean a mechanical feature whereby the barrel is pulled away from the the butt to load cartridges.

Both existed at WHF: a broken shotgun which was rusty and in pieces found in an upstairs room.  And a broken functioning shotgun as in barrel apart from butt was found by firearms officers in NB's office leaning against the wall.

Anthony Pargeter kept his firearms at WHF.

Thank you Holly. I did know that actually. My husband had a shotgun (and a licence). His first action on entering the house with it was to lock it away.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2020, 09:01:36 PM
It seems that the bolt action .22 rifle also belonged to Anthony Pargeter.
https://twitter.com/Bambertweets/status/1237354369521254400

It wasn't illegal for Pargeter to keep his guns at WHF so long as they were on his certificate with their location identified and on Nevill's. The fact that none of the guns were stored securely was, however. Particularly as someone with mental health problems was a regular visitor. Psychosis is mentioned as a risk factor.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 12, 2020, 09:20:31 PM
It seems that the bolt action .22 rifle also belonged to Anthony Pargeter.
https://twitter.com/Bambertweets/status/1237354369521254400

It wasn't illegal for Pargeter to keep his guns at WHF so long as they were on his certificate with their location identified and on Nevill's. The fact that none of the guns were stored securely was, however. Particularly as someone with mental health problems was a regular visitor. Psychosis is mentioned as a risk factor.

So is personality disorder.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2020, 10:16:52 PM
So is personality disorder.

It seems that Nevill Bamber was prepared to play fast and loose with the firearms laws in more ways than one.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 12, 2020, 11:01:46 PM
He probably broke it open to make sure it wasn't loaded.

Shotgun photo and PC Collins' statement resized...

A/PS Woodcock claims he broke it open to check it wasn't loaded:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=257
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 13, 2020, 12:17:21 AM
A/PS Woodcock claims he broke it open to check it wasn't loaded:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=257

Busy boy that morning.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 13, 2020, 09:24:06 AM
Nevill Bamber was known to be meticulous about keeping his rifles locked securely.

Any others that may have been discarded were broken and waiting to be disposed of: they weren’t loaded; didn’t work; and were ready for the scrap heap

You can see by how general junk was put into cupboards that Nevill was a very busy man with a farm to run...just because a couple of broken, unloaded weapons may have been dumped with the junk means nothing

Besides, no-one knows if Jeremy deliberately scattered them about after killing them all — it may have have been part of his plot to make it look like Sheila had gone berserk

I don’t know why all this is being dragged up 34 years later: don’t you think the investigators at the time looked at all the evidence?

It’s laughable to think laymen have suddenly spotted something that experts missed decades ago...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
Nevill Bamber was known to be meticulous about keeping his rifles locked securely.

Any others that may have been discarded were broken and waiting to be disposed of: they weren’t loaded; didn’t work; and were ready for the scrap heap

You can see by how general junk was put into cupboards that Nevill was a very busy man with a farm to run...just because a couple of broken, unloaded weapons may have been dumped with the junk means nothing

Besides, no-one knows if Jeremy deliberately scattered them about after killing them all — it may have have been part of his plot to make it look like Sheila had gone berserk

I don’t know why all this is being dragged up 34 years later: don’t you think the investigators at the time looked at all the evidence?

It’s laughable to think laymen have suddenly spotted something that experts missed decades ago...

Where was the lockable gun cabinet which is a requirement of the law?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 13, 2020, 11:27:13 AM
Where was the lockable gun cabinet which is a requirement of the law?

I understood that there were two: one under the stairs, and one in Nevill's office. Does anyone know if this is true, or a rumour?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 13, 2020, 11:45:59 AM
I understood that there were two: one under the stairs, and one in Nevill's office. Does anyone know if this is true, or a rumour?

Afaik there were no lockable cupboards for firearms. 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 13, 2020, 11:49:11 AM
Busy boy that morning.

Obviously - he was acting police sergeant of the firearms unit.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2020, 12:07:02 PM
Afaik there were no lockable cupboards for firearms.

Even if there had been none of the guns were in them.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 13, 2020, 01:14:15 PM
Even if there had been none of the guns were in them.

That's right firearms in working order were found scattered all over the farmhouse along with hundreds of rounds of ammo.

NB was also involved in a shooting accident whereby a bullet ricocheted off a tree and hit June's father in his eye causing him to lose his sight in that eye.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 14, 2020, 04:44:02 PM
That's right firearms in working order were found scattered all over the farmhouse along with hundreds of rounds of ammo.

NB was also involved in a shooting accident whereby a bullet ricocheted off a tree and hit June's father in his eye causing him to lose his sight in that eye.

Not true

This is becoming farcical
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2020, 05:01:07 PM
Not true

This is becoming farcical

If you have evidence to the contrary please share.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 14, 2020, 06:31:46 PM
If you have evidence to the contrary please share.

I do, but with all due respect can’t be bothered to get it right now (I will do very soon, though)

Meanwhile, maybe you’ll post evidence that working rifles/guns, and loaded rifles/guns were scattered all over the house?

Just to make it interesting I’ll have a bet with you that you can’t...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2020, 09:16:59 PM
I do, but with all due respect can’t be bothered to get it right now (I will do very soon, though)

Meanwhile, maybe you’ll post evidence that working rifles/guns, and loaded rifles/guns were scattered all over the house?

Just to make it interesting I’ll have a bet with you that you can’t...

Why doesn't that surprise me? I never mentioned loaded guns in the house btw but there were working guns and ammunition which were not securely locked up.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 14, 2020, 09:37:27 PM
Why doesn't that surprise me? I never mentioned loaded guns in the house btw but there were working guns and ammunition which were not securely locked up.


That doesn't surprise me. The general consensus from farmers, in the early days of having to lock guns away was that they'd never had to and nothing untoward had ever happened. I went into numerous farmhouses in the early 1980's and saw guns laying around.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2020, 10:29:02 PM

That doesn't surprise me. The general consensus from farmers, in the early days of having to lock guns away was that they'd never had to and nothing untoward had ever happened. I went into numerous farmhouses in the early 1980's and saw guns laying around.

1968 was when the law was introduced. Seventeen years before this case. There was a farmer near us when I was a child in the 1950's who fired his shotgun if he saw us in his fields. Not at us, I'm sure, but we got out of there very quickly. My husband had a shotgun in the 1970's which was kept correctly, but he was ex military.

It wasn't unusual for farmers to be careless with guns and Nevill Bamber was one such. He wasn't careful and safety conscious as some have suggested.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 15, 2020, 08:48:13 AM
1968 was when the law was introduced. Seventeen years before this case. There was a farmer near us when I was a child in the 1950's who fired his shotgun if he saw us in his fields. Not at us, I'm sure, but we got out of there very quickly. My husband had a shotgun in the 1970's which was kept correctly, but he was ex military.

It wasn't unusual for farmers to be careless with guns and Nevill Bamber was one such. He wasn't careful and safety conscious as some have suggested.

I do SO hate sweeping statements. You speak as if you knew Nevill and visited WHF on a regular basis. There may have been occasions when he wasn't AS careful but it doesn't make him generally careless. Re the law regarding firearms. I think there was some sort of change in the early 80's? Something abut hefty fines being introduced?  can remember farming friends muttering darkly about it.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 10:53:28 AM
I do SO hate sweeping statements. You speak as if you knew Nevill and visited WHF on a regular basis. There may have been occasions when he wasn't AS careful but it doesn't make him generally careless. Re the law regarding firearms. I think there was some sort of change in the early 80's? Something abut hefty fines being introduced?  can remember farming friends muttering darkly about it.

The evidence is that there was no lockable cabinet at White House Farm. The evidence is that there were two or three guns stored in a shower room and two others were stored on a staircase. Ammunition was stored in a cupboard under the stairs which wasn't lockable. As all that evidence shows that the guns and ammunition were not stored safely in accordance with the legal requirements no sweeping statement has been made by me.

In contrast those asserting that Nevill Bamber was careful with his guns based on nothing factual are the ones who have been making sweeping statements in my opinion.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 15, 2020, 11:10:19 AM
The evidence is that there was no lockable cabinet at White House Farm. The evidence is that there were two or three guns stored in a shower room and two others were stored on a staircase. Ammunition was stored in a cupboard under the stairs which wasn't lockable. As all that evidence shows that the guns and ammunition were not stored safely in accordance with the legal requirements no sweeping statement has been made by me.

In contrast those asserting that Nevill Bamber was careful with his guns based on nothing factual are the ones who have been making sweeping statements in my opinion.

All of which requires verification. 'Careful' is relative to the mores of the time. What was seen as being acceptable then, maybe less so now, and as you point out, your views are only your own opinion.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
All of which requires verification. 'Careful' is relative to the mores of the time. What was seen as being acceptable then, maybe less so now, and as you point out, your views are only your own opinion.

It's all there in the evidence, so it is verified. I mentioned my opinion in relation to sweeping statements, not gun safety.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 08:49:16 PM
He probably broke it open to make sure it wasn't loaded.

Shotgun photo and PC Collins' statement resized...

Spot on, Myster  8((()*/

It’s blatantly obvious to intelligent people that the PO took the rifle from the gun locker

Incredibly so
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 08:59:44 PM
Thank you Holly. I did know that actually. My husband had a shotgun (and a licence). His first action on entering the house with it was to lock it away.


So, given that Jeremy Bamber had grown up on a farm surrounded by shotguns, surely his first action when allegedly coming back to the farmhouse after supposedly trying to shoot rabbits would have been to lock the rifle securely away?

Especially knowing his “nutter sister” as he described Sheila, and his two six-year-old nephews were inside the house?

Who’d leave a loaded gun lying around when there’s a “nutter” in the house, including children? Eh?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:04:50 PM
It seems that Nevill Bamber was prepared to play fast and loose with the firearms laws in more ways than one.

Have you evidence of that?

If so, all the more that Jeremy would have used Nevill’s alleged laxness by leaving a loaded firearm around...

However, I don’t believe for a second that Jeremy left that loaded rifle for people to spot: he HID it for his return
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 09:05:52 PM

So, given that Jeremy Bamber had grown up on a farm surrounded by shotguns, surely his first action when allegedly coming back to the farmhouse after supposedly trying to shoot rabbits would have been to lock the rifle securely away?

Especially knowing his “nutter sister” as he described Sheila, and his two six-year-old nephews were inside the house?

Who’d leave a loaded gun lying around when there’s a “nutter” in the house, including children? Eh?

Lock it away where?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:11:36 PM
Afaik there were no lockable cupboards for firearms.

That’s impossible

My nephew keeps firearms for shooting, and they must at all times (besides shooting) be locked away in a specially secured firearms locker

Licences will be refused or withdrawn if that isn’t adhered to

Nevill had a gun locker, in which he stored his working guns. It’s all documented.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 15, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
That’s impossible

My nephew keeps firearms for shooting, and they must at all times (besides shooting) be locked away in a specially secured firearms locker

Licences will be refused or withdrawn if that isn’t adhered to

Nevill had a gun locker, in which he stored his working guns. It’s all documented.

I really can't be bothered to go searching, but I'd be hugely surprised if Nevill had flaunted the law by not having one available. How often he used it is an entirely other question.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:27:41 PM
Why doesn't that surprise me? I never mentioned loaded guns in the house btw but there were working guns and ammunition which were not securely locked up.

The only guns that were no longer working were thrown into a pile of junk

Ammunition alone cannot harm without a gun

And...given that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath and planned how to kill his family, it’s probable that he himself scattered ammunition/weapons around

After all,  Nevill can’t speak up can he?

And Jeremy wanted to stage a murder/suicide with a woman go mad...so if there were guns laying around it would have been Jeremy himself who flung them about.

Remember, he did plot the murders.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 09:35:32 PM
That’s impossible

My nephew keeps firearms for shooting, and they must at all times (besides shooting) be locked away in a specially secured firearms locker

Licences will be refused or withdrawn if that isn’t adhered to

Nevill had a gun locker, in which he stored his working guns. It’s all documented.

Where is it documented?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:39:41 PM
Why doesn't that surprise me? I never mentioned loaded guns in the house btw but there were working guns and ammunition which were not securely locked up.


Stop inferring things that are just in your head, G-Unit

I actually have a life to lead and can’t/Don’t desire to dedicate all my waking hours to discussing a psychopathic mass murderer and pulling up proof to please you. I’ll do it when I’m less busy.  But I know you won’t accept the facts when I present them: hence why I’m in no rush to try and make you understand.

You’ll never accept Jeremy Bamber is guilty, despite a a jury finding him guilty 34 years ago; despite all the overwhelming evidence; despite all his lost appeals; attempted leave for appeals; his loss at the European Court of Human Rights etc....

I doubt you’d believe he’s guilty even if he admitted it: you’d come up with some cock and bull story and say that Jeremy has had a breakdown/falsely admitted it...

You can’t see that you have a problem: but Jeremy can — and that’s why he’s using you
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I do SO hate sweeping statements. You speak as if you knew Nevill and visited WHF on a regular basis. There may have been occasions when he wasn't AS careful but it doesn't make him generally careless. Re the law regarding firearms. I think there was some sort of change in the early 80's? Something abut hefty fines being introduced?  can remember farming friends muttering darkly about it.

Risible, isn’t it?

G-Unit speaks as though she knew the Bambers’ well

She’d never met them in her life, not stepped foot in WHF

Her ludicrous statements shows how vivid and wrong her imagination is...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:49:05 PM
The evidence is that there was no lockable cabinet at White House Farm. The evidence is that there were two or three guns stored in a shower room and two others were stored on a staircase. Ammunition was stored in a cupboard under the stairs which wasn't lockable. As all that evidence shows that the guns and ammunition were not stored safely in accordance with the legal requirements no sweeping statement has been made by me.

In contrast those asserting that Nevill Bamber was careful with his guns based on nothing factual are the ones who have been making sweeping statements in my opinion.


In that case then, why did Jeremy say to the police and Colin how bad he felt for not , in his words, “locking the .22 rifle away that had a full magazine attached”? Eh?

He’d have said “Oh, we always left loaded guns around...”

You’re tying yourself up in knots
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 09:56:34 PM
Where is it documented?

I shall find it — just for you, G-Unit

And when I do I hope you tell me what any of this has to with the fact Jeremy Bamber shot dead his family

You’re doing exactly what the convicted murderer, Jeremy does: he homes in on an irrelevant detail in order to try and manipulate

He’s an evil psychopathic murderer : why does that fact disturb you?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 10:41:09 PM
I shall find it — just for you, G-Unit

And when I do I hope you tell me what any of this has to with the fact Jeremy Bamber shot dead his family

You’re doing exactly what the convicted murderer, Jeremy does: he homes in on an irrelevant detail in order to try and manipulate

He’s an evil psychopathic murderer : why does that fact disturb you?

Thank you. The sooner you produce your evidence the sooner we can move on to discussing why there was nothing in this alleged cabinet.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 10:46:54 PM
Lock it away where?


In the same locker he’d taken it from

But he didn’t do that...he hid it...for later
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 10:51:48 PM

In the same locker he’d taken it from

But he didn’t do that...he hid it...for later

What locker?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 15, 2020, 10:52:37 PM
Thank you. The sooner you produce your evidence the sooner we can move on to discussing why there was nothing in this alleged cabinet.


Good

That means the sooner you’ll stop all this nonsense

You claim you know about firearms, but how do we know that’s true?

It’s odd you’re unaware that the police visit the property to inspect the gun locker before issuing the license... *%87
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2020, 11:38:56 PM

Good

That means the sooner you’ll stop all this nonsense

You claim you know about firearms, but how do we know that’s true?

It’s odd you’re unaware that the police visit the property to inspect the gun locker before issuing the license... *%87

According to CAL's book a police constable visited the farm in connection with Nevill Bamber's firearms renewal three months before the Anschutz was purchased. He wrote down that "Mr Bamber was meticulous in the safekeeping of these weapons, which were all stored in a padlocked cupboard within the house"

The information was in a witness statement made by a Keith Dryland in October 1985.

Another officer named Cook says the cupboard wasn't examined thoroughly on 7th August because it wasn't a legal or proper place for storing weapons; it was just a cupboard.
CAL page 186

On page 223 it says the cupboard was secured only by a nylon ball catch.

Even so, the weapons weren't even in this cupboard on 7th August.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 16, 2020, 08:56:52 AM
According to CAL's book a police constable visited the farm in connection with Nevill Bamber's firearms renewal three months before the Anschutz was purchased. He wrote down that "Mr Bamber was meticulous in the safekeeping of these weapons, which were all stored in a padlocked cupboard within the house"

The information was in a witness statement made by a Keith Dryland in October 1985.

Another officer named Cook says the cupboard wasn't examined thoroughly on 7th August because it wasn't a legal or proper place for storing weapons; it was just a cupboard.
CAL page 186

On page 223 it says the cupboard was secured only by a nylon ball catch.

Even so, the weapons weren't even in this cupboard on 7th August.

Even RB testified that on a recent visit to WHF he observed a firearm lying around.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 16, 2020, 01:47:01 PM
Even RB testified that on a recent visit to WHF he observed a firearm lying around.

In his statement dated 16/12/85 RB says he attended shoots at WHF every year 'until two years ago'. He then describes what Nevill would do after a shoot at the farm. He would put his gun in the enclosed staircase leading up from the kitchen, which 'is not used'. He found Nevill's gun there on the Saturday after the tragedy along with a .22 air rifle. It seems that was a habitual place for guns to be kept.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 17, 2020, 12:40:23 AM
Thank you. The sooner you produce your evidence the sooner we can move on to discussing why there was nothing in this alleged cabinet.


Why are you asking me to produce evidence when you’ve produced it yourself in your post further down?

You wrote:



According to CAL's book a police constable visited the farm in connection with Nevill Bamber's firearms renewal three months before the Anschutz was purchased. He wrote down that "Mr Bamber was meticulous in the safekeeping of these weapons, which were all stored in a padlocked cupboard within the house"

The information was in a witness statement made by a Keith Dryland in October 1985. ”




Furthermore, I’m not obliged to produce evidence to you, G-Unit. You’re not a police officer; you’re not  a lawyer; and I’m not under cross-examination

The person who was under cross-examination was Jeremy Bamber — who was subsequently found Guilty “beyond reasonable doubt” of murdering all his family 34 years ago.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 17, 2020, 12:47:18 AM
Even RB testified that on a recent visit to WHF he observed a firearm lying around.


But it wasn’t loaded, though...nor was it next to a a full cartridge of bullets

But Jeremy left the rifle just slung in the kitchen — or hallway — depending on which lie you choose to believe...

I firmly believe Jeremy didn’t even take that rifle out the house: he simply hid it somewhere to kill them all later
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 17, 2020, 12:48:48 AM

Why are you asking me to produce evidence when you’ve produced it yourself in your post further down?

You wrote:



According to CAL's book a police constable visited the farm in connection with Nevill Bamber's firearms renewal three months before the Anschutz was purchased. He wrote down that "Mr Bamber was meticulous in the safekeeping of these weapons, which were all stored in a padlocked cupboard within the house"

The information was in a witness statement made by a Keith Dryland in October 1985. ”




Furthermore, I’m not obliged to produce evidence to you, G-Unit. You’re not a police officer; you’re not  a lawyer; and I’m not under cross-examination

The person who was under cross-examination was Jeremy Bamber — who was subsequently found Guilty “beyond reasonable doubt” of murdering all his family 34 years ago.

But the statement of Keith Dryland contradicts testimony from police officers at soc and the relatives.

Does anyone know anything about Keith Dryland.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 17, 2020, 12:56:13 AM
In his statement dated 16/12/85 RB says he attended shoots at WHF every year 'until two years ago'. He then describes what Nevill would do after a shoot at the farm. He would put his gun in the enclosed staircase leading up from the kitchen, which 'is not used'. He found Nevill's gun there on the Saturday after the tragedy along with a .22 air rifle. It seems that was a habitual place for guns to be kept.

I don't know which gun RB is referring to but the firearms team found the shotgun in the downstairs office which was part of a recent renovation to the farmhouse.  So maybe prior to this NB stored them in the unused staircase. 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 17, 2020, 03:13:19 PM
I don't know which gun RB is referring to but the firearms team found the shotgun in the downstairs office which was part of a recent renovation to the farmhouse.  So maybe prior to this NB stored them in the unused staircase.

RWB hadn't gone on a shoot with Nevill for two years prior to the murders. Nevill had clearly changed his storage place for the shot gun since then.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 18, 2020, 06:14:03 AM
But the statement of Keith Dryland contradicts testimony from police officers at soc and the relatives.

Does anyone know anything about Keith Dryland.


It’s quite possible that Jeremy deliberately scattered various firearms around the house after shooting them all dead just to make it look like Nevill was careless

It’s also possible, and indeed likely, that when the relative visited to collect their gun Nevill would have had the gun cupboard open and removed various guns. He may have been going shooting himself...but whatever the case, they weren’t loaded.

The guns the police referred to as soc were old rusted, broken ones tossed in a cupboard filled with other junk.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 18, 2020, 06:20:49 AM
Afaik there were no lockable cupboards for firearms.

So when the police officer went round to see Nevill to make sure everything met legal requirements to renew Nevill’s firearms licence, are you saying the PO lied about seeing and examining the locked gun cupboard?

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 18, 2020, 06:22:27 AM
Where is it documented?


It was documented by the police officer who went round to renew Nevill’s firearms licence
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 18, 2020, 10:19:12 AM

It was documented by the police officer who went round to renew Nevill’s firearms licence

We don't know what checks Keith Dryland carried out. In any event a lockable and secure cupboard wasn't in existence when the firearms team and soc officers went through the farmhouse.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 18, 2020, 10:44:06 AM

It was documented by the police officer who went round to renew Nevill’s firearms licence

Well he said the guns were kept in a padlocked cupboard.

In his statement given on 17/12/85 David Boutflour describes the cupboard as having a one inch thick veneer plywood door and no lock, being kept shut by a nylon ball catch.

The only way the cupboard could be padlocked is by fixing a hasp and staple. I can see no sign of anything like that having been removed from the door since the police officer's visit.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcszwuOUAAEHYJM?format=jpg&name=small)

What is clear is that you have failed to verify your post #31 where you stated;

"Nevill had a gun locker, in which he stored his working guns. It’s all documented."






Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 18, 2020, 09:46:23 PM
We don't know what checks Keith Dryland carried out. In any event a lockable and secure cupboard wasn't in existence when the firearms team and soc officers went through the farmhouse.


Holly,  Keith Dryland went round to WHF to establish Nevill was keeping his firearms safe and locked.

You’re now implying that HE was as inept as Taff Jones

Are you saying every PO at Essex Police were idiots?

Dryland was satisfied that Nevill had a secure firearm cupboard, OK?

You haven’t been in WHF so stop making allegations when you have no idea. What’s more, all this is irrelevant — Jeremy Bamber had access to the firearms — he admitted that: so all this is completely pointless.  We all know the rifle used to kill the family was the .22; the one Jeremy claimed he used just hours prior to shooting them all dead, so I don’t see what you’re trying to get at?

 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 18, 2020, 10:19:19 PM

Holly,  Keith Dryland went round to WHF to establish Nevill was keeping his firearms safe and locked.

You’re now implying that HE was as inept as Taff Jones

Are you saying every PO at Essex Police were idiots?

Dryland was satisfied that Nevill had a secure firearm cupboard, OK?

You haven’t been in WHF so stop making allegations when you have no idea. What’s more, all this is irrelevant — Jeremy Bamber had access to the firearms — he admitted that: so all this is completely pointless.  We all know the rifle used to kill the family was the .22; the one Jeremy claimed he used just hours prior to shooting them all dead, so I don’t see what you’re trying to get at?

 

I started this thread because people kept telling me that Nevill Bamber was careful with the weapons at WHF. The thread has revealed that he wasn't careful and was in breach of the law on firearm safety.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 18, 2020, 11:16:40 PM
Well he said the guns were kept in a padlocked cupboard.

In his statement given on 17/12/85 David Boutflour describes the cupboard as having a one inch thick veneer plywood door and no lock, being kept shut by a nylon ball catch.

The only way the cupboard could be padlocked is by fixing a hasp and staple. I can see no sign of anything like that having been removed from the door since the police officer's visit.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CcszwuOUAAEHYJM?format=jpg&name=small)

What is clear is that you have failed to verify your post #31 where you stated;

"Nevill had a gun locker, in which he stored his working guns. It’s all documented."


If the police officer saw a padlock cupboard, it simply means that at some point, the guns were kept in another cupboard previously!

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2020, 12:20:09 AM
If the police officer saw a padlock cupboard, it simply means that at some point, the guns were kept in another cupboard previously!

Well if he did he and the police officer are the only people who ever saw it and the police officer is the only person who ever mentioned it. Was it in a secret location? If so, what was in it? No known weapons that's for sure. Robert Boutflour mentions Nevill keeping one shotgun under his bed because of it's value, and another one on the kitchen stairs. David Boutflour found the one on the stairs along with a rifle, one in the pictured cupboard and some in the downstairs shower room.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 19, 2020, 12:25:02 AM
Well if he did he and the police officer are the only people who ever saw it and the police officer is the only person who ever mentioned it. Was it in a secret location? If so, what was in it? No known weapons that's for sure. Robert Boutflour mentions Nevill keeping one shotgun under his bed because of it's value, and another one on the kitchen stairs. David Boutflour found the one on the stairs along with a rifle, one in the pictured cupboard and some in the downstairs shower room.

You don't know what was in it but he wouldn't have been given his license if things weren't as they should be. Not really sure what this has to do with the murders though?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2020, 02:33:32 AM
You don't know what was in it but he wouldn't have been given his license if things weren't as they should be. Not really sure what this has to do with the murders though?

I repeat. This thread was begun because people kept telling me things about Nevill Bamber and I wanted to check if they were true or rumours. They appear to be rumours.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 19, 2020, 02:52:24 AM
I repeat. This thread was begun because people kept telling me things about Nevill Bamber and I wanted to check if they were true or rumours. They appear to be rumours.

Not according to the police officer who issued a licence renewal.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 19, 2020, 08:05:26 AM
I started this thread because people kept telling me that Nevill Bamber was careful with the weapons at WHF. The thread has revealed that he wasn't careful and was in breach of the law on firearm safety.


That post sounds pompous and smug. I don't believe it to have revealed what you claim it does.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 19, 2020, 08:18:50 AM
I repeat. This thread was begun because people kept telling me things about Nevill Bamber and I wanted to check if they were true or rumours. They appear to be rumours.


Why would anyone feel obliged to tell YOU things, G-Unit?

And how/where Nevill stored his firearms is absolutely none of your business — just as the family finances aren’t.

But what we DO know is that prior to when Jeremy Bamber shot dead all his family, there was never once an accidental shooting inside the house or on the farm; so that proves that however Nevill stored his firearms he secured them in such a way that no-one was ever in danger.

In fact, Nevill was known to be more than meticulous about keeping his firearms safe, especially after witnessing his friend accidentally being shot when out on a shoot, and a bullet ricocheted back at his face and blinded him in one eye.

It’s distasteful to cast aspersions on the dead: especially victims of a cold-blooded evil murderer that Jeremy Bamber is.

And besides, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that Jeremy Bamber killed them all.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2020, 01:27:48 PM

Why would anyone feel obliged to tell YOU things, G-Unit?

And how/where Nevill stored his firearms is absolutely none of your business — just as the family finances aren’t.

But what we DO know is that prior to when Jeremy Bamber shot dead all his family, there was never once an accidental shooting inside the house or on the farm; so that proves that however Nevill stored his firearms he secured them in such a way that no-one was ever in danger.

In fact, Nevill was known to be more than meticulous about keeping his firearms safe, especially after witnessing his friend accidentally being shot when out on a shoot, and a bullet ricocheted back at his face and blinded him in one eye.

It’s distasteful to cast aspersions on the dead: especially victims of a cold-blooded evil murderer that Jeremy Bamber is.

And besides, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that Jeremy Bamber killed them all.

I don't think anyone felt obliged to tell me things, but I was repeatedly assured by other members that Nevill Bamber was very careful with the guns in his house.

As to what is or is not my business, that's not for you to decide.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 20, 2020, 12:16:18 AM
I don't think anyone felt obliged to tell me things, but I was repeatedly assured by other members that Nevill Bamber was very careful with the guns in his house.

As to what is or is not my business, that's not for you to decide.


You’re correct: your business is not mine

Just as the Bambers/Eatons isn’t yours
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2020, 08:03:37 AM

You’re correct: your business is not mine

Just as the Bambers/Eatons isn’t yours

Is it your job to tell people what they should or should not post? I think not.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 20, 2020, 01:02:52 PM
I don't think anyone felt obliged to tell me things, but I was repeatedly assured by other members that Nevill Bamber was very careful with the guns in his house.

As to what is or is not my business, that's not for you to decide.

G-Unit I think you will find it was all very relaxed pre Hungerford.  Post Hungerford everything tightened up.

Could it be, like approving the Bamber's for adoption, that NB's general standing in the community went before him and Keith Dryland simply ticked the boxes without carrying out any checks?

It's obvious from firearms officers and soc officers that firearms and ammo were all over the farmhouse accessible to anyone within. 

Have you read NB's nephew's wit stat, Anthony Pargeter? 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 20, 2020, 01:11:53 PM
G-Unit I think you will find it was all very relaxed pre Hungerford.  Post Hungerford everything tightened up.

Could it be, like approving the Bamber's for adoption, that NB's general standing in the community went before him and Keith Dryland simply ticked the boxes without carrying out any checks?

It's obvious from firearms officers and soc officers that firearms and ammo were all over the farmhouse accessible to anyone within. 

Have you read NB's nephew's wit stat, Anthony Pargeter?

Anthony Pargeter's stats:

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
G-Unit I think you will find it was all very relaxed pre Hungerford.  Post Hungerford everything tightened up.

Could it be, like approving the Bamber's for adoption, that NB's general standing in the community went before him and Keith Dryland simply ticked the boxes without carrying out any checks?

It's obvious from firearms officers and soc officers that firearms and ammo were all over the farmhouse accessible to anyone within. 

Have you read NB's nephew's wit stat, Anthony Pargeter?

I agree that a person's standing in the community affects how the police approach and deal with them. A police constable was unikely to cause trouble for himself by accusing a local landowner, magistrate and churchwarden of breaching the terms of his firearms certificate.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 20, 2020, 01:36:00 PM
G-Unit I think you will find it was all very relaxed pre Hungerford.  Post Hungerford everything tightened up.

Could it be, like approving the Bamber's for adoption, that NB's general standing in the community went before him and Keith Dryland simply ticked the boxes without carrying out any checks?

It's obvious from firearms officers and soc officers that firearms and ammo were all over the farmhouse accessible to anyone within. 

Have you read NB's nephew's wit stat, Anthony Pargeter?

And risk getting sacked?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 20, 2020, 01:36:59 PM
I agree that a person's standing in the community affects how the police approach and deal with them. A police constable was unikely to cause trouble for himself by accusing a local landowner, magistrate and churchwarden of breaching the terms of his firearms certificate.

Why would he have to accuse him of anything? All he needed to do was recommend!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 20, 2020, 02:27:25 PM
And risk getting sacked?

Has anyone seen the paperwork from Keith Dryland?  Who was he?  What was his rank and which office did he work out of?

Did anyone investigate the huge discrepancy between Keith Dryland's account and what officers found on 7th Aug? 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 20, 2020, 03:28:40 PM
Has anyone seen the paperwork from Keith Dryland?  Who was he?  What was his rank and which office did he work out of?

Did anyone investigate the huge discrepancy between Keith Dryland's account and what officers found on 7th Aug?

Why would they? Things change over time.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2020, 04:58:08 PM
Has anyone seen the paperwork from Keith Dryland?  Who was he?  What was his rank and which office did he work out of?

Did anyone investigate the huge discrepancy between Keith Dryland's account and what officers found on 7th Aug?

According to CAL he made a statement on 16/10/85. That's all I've got.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 12:31:08 PM
Is it your job to tell people what they should or should not post? I think not.

And it’s not your job to pry into the finances of people you don’t know

Surely you should be concentrating on matters closer to home, dear
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 12:38:05 PM
G-Unit I think you will find it was all very relaxed pre Hungerford.  Post Hungerford everything tightened up.

Could it be, like approving the Bamber's for adoption, that NB's general standing in the community went before him and Keith Dryland simply ticked the boxes without carrying out any checks?

It's obvious from firearms officers and soc officers that firearms and ammo were all over the farmhouse accessible to anyone within. 

Have you read NB's nephew's wit stat, Anthony Pargeter?


Why do you keep making false assumptions, Holly?

There were NO fire armed weapons “all over the house” — so stop exaggerating

Nevill kept them in the gun cupboard and a few broken ones or ones that were UNLOADED were either in cases or in the the junk ready to dispose of.

It’s so bad of you to imply Nevill was careless when he was not

And this has nothing to do with the FACT Jeremy shot them all dead

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 12:42:59 PM
I agree that a person's standing in the community affects how the police approach and deal with them. A police constable was unikely to cause trouble for himself by accusing a local landowner, magistrate and churchwarden of breaching the terms of his firearms certificate.


That’s obviously how YOUR mind works, G-Unit

Maybe YOU become subservient to people and would go against the law just because they’re of a higher status than you: but not everyone is in awe of a farmer who happens to be a magistrate.  You’re not just tarnishing Nevill, you’re now tarnishing the police officer with a rumour you’ve created in YOUR head.

I find that offensive, and I’m sure the police officer would too. Maybe we should contact him and see what he wants to do about your vivid imagination and groundless accusations...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 12:46:25 PM
Has anyone seen the paperwork from Keith Dryland?  Who was he?  What was his rank and which office did he work out of?

Did anyone investigate the huge discrepancy between Keith Dryland's account and what officers found on 7th Aug?


The officers didn’t find ANY loaded firearms in the house, Holly

Nevill’s firearms were in the gun cupboard where he kept them

There were a couple of BROKEN ones amongst some general junk — hardly dangerous!

Anyway, this had nothing to do with Jeremy being a mass murderer
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2020, 01:01:27 PM
And it’s not your job to pry into the finances of people you don’t know

Surely you should be concentrating on matters closer to home, dear

I thought it might have occured to you before this that your opinions are of no interest to me.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2020, 01:07:10 PM

That’s obviously how YOUR mind works, G-Unit

Maybe YOU become subservient to people and would go against the law just because they’re of a higher status than you: but not everyone is in awe of a farmer who happens to be a magistrate.  You’re not just tarnishing Nevill, you’re now tarnishing the police officer with a rumour you’ve created in YOUR head.

I find that offensive, and I’m sure the police officer would too. Maybe we should contact him and see what he wants to do about your vivid imagination and groundless accusations...

You may have lived a sheltered life, but I know that the police react differently to different people.

You could ask him where the locked cupboard was located while you're at it. Did you find evidence to confirm your assertions that such a place existed yet?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 22, 2020, 02:06:27 PM
I thought it might have occured to you before this that your opinions are of no interest to me.

The facts don't seem to matter either.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2020, 02:58:24 PM
The facts don't seem to matter either.

I think you'll find that I provide details of where the facts I quote can be found.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 22, 2020, 03:09:09 PM
I think you'll find that I provide details of where the facts I quote can be found.

That's not what I meant but you are selective in what you consider such as SC's CS photograph.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2020, 04:12:33 PM
That's not what I meant but you are selective in what you consider such as SC's CS photograph.

If I give my opinion of the photo it wouldn't be factual because I'm not qualified to comment.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 04:18:59 PM
I think you'll find that I provide details of where the facts I quote can be found.

But your “facts” are usually always wrong — so you’re looking in the wrong place or forgetting what you’ve read

You frequently ask people for sources , so either you’re forgetful or you haven’t much knowledge of the true facts
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 22, 2020, 04:40:23 PM
If I give my opinion of the photo it wouldn't be factual because I'm not qualified to comment.

You're not qualified to understand that blood doesn't flow up? You don't need to be and I suspect you already know that.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2020, 05:06:44 PM
If I give my opinion of the photo it wouldn't be factual because I'm not qualified to comment.

In that case I think very few of us are qualified to express an opinion or to comment on much if any of the information posted on the forum.
A bit daunting for a discussion forum.  Particularly one on which we don't feel we all have to be singing from the same hymnsheet and one with members able to challenge, discuss and if necessary rectify misinformation.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2020, 05:21:34 PM
You're not qualified to understand that blood doesn't flow up? You don't need to be and I suspect you already know that.

I've kept my mouth shut for a while to avoid showing up my ignorance in the hope my question would come up in the discussion, but so far I've not seen any reference.
I am perplexed about how it was thought physically possible for Sheila to shoot herself with that rifle ... even minus the silencer.

She was diminutive and I can't see how she could have managed it without a bit of contortion; did the police almost immediately fall into line with Bamber's 'suicide' theme without giving much thought to that?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2020, 05:29:32 PM
But you “facts” are usually always wrong — so you’re looking in the wrong place or forgetting what you’ve read

You frequently ask people for sources , so either you’re forgetful or you haven’t much knowledge of the true facts

Usually or always? Which is it? The reason I quote sources is to enable others to check that what I say is correct. Please feel free to check and let me know in each case you have identified which posts you find where I have 'forgotten' what the source said. I will thank you and apologise for each one you draw my attention to.

I ask for sources for three reasons; because the rules say they should be provided, to ascetain that there is a source, rather than an opinion and so that I can check that others aren't 'forgetting' what their source said. 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 22, 2020, 05:39:04 PM
I've kept my mouth shut for a while to avoid showing up my ignorance in the hope my question would come up in the discussion, but so far I've not seen any reference.
I am perplexed about how it was thought physically possible for Sheila to shoot herself with that rifle ... even minus the silencer.

She was diminutive and I can't see how she could have managed it without a bit of contortion; did the police almost immediately fall into line with Bamber's 'suicide' theme without giving much thought to that?

Hi,

I do think that some of them would have wondered, maybe a lot more than we actually know but yes, in the main, they took Bambers word for it. I guess with the benefit of hindsight, it does seem mad.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 22, 2020, 06:54:03 PM
I've kept my mouth shut for a while to avoid showing up my ignorance in the hope my question would come up in the discussion, but so far I've not seen any reference.
I am perplexed about how it was thought physically possible for Sheila to shoot herself with that rifle ... even minus the silencer.

She was diminutive and I can't see how she could have managed it without a bit of contortion; did the police almost immediately fall into line with Bamber's 'suicide' theme without giving much thought to that?

That they found her with the rifle draped conveniently across her in a way suggestive of suicide, combined with what Jeremy had covertly been suggesting to them, would have ruled out the immediate thought that it wouldn't have been possible.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2020, 07:11:01 PM
Hi,

I do think that some of them would have wondered, maybe a lot more than we actually know but yes, in the main, they took Bambers word for it. I guess with the benefit of hindsight, it does seem mad.

I just can't visualise it. I thought about it a lot at the time and my memory was jogged by a scene in the docudrama when a police woman around Sheila's size was asked to demonstrate after the silencer was found and she couldn't reach the trigger when lying prone.
I think it would have been difficult for her in either case as it is quite a long barrel.  I think she must have been paralysed by terror when he shot her.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 22, 2020, 07:23:08 PM
I just can't visualise it. I thought about it a lot at the time and my memory was jogged by a scene in the docudrama when a police woman around Sheila's size was asked to demonstrate after the silencer was found and she couldn't reach the trigger when lying prone.
I think it would have been difficult for her in either case as it is quite a long barrel.  I think she must have been paralysed by terror when he shot her.

Or fainted?

I think you mean this one.  They used an actual Anschutz 525 and P-H moderator in the drama reconstruction...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2020, 08:29:22 PM
Or fainted?

I think you mean this one.  They used an actual Anschutz 525 and P-H moderator in the drama reconstruction...

So possible without the silencer in place which made it imperative to remove and hide it. That clarifies it a bit, thank you.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 22, 2020, 11:55:35 PM
I just can't visualise it. I thought about it a lot at the time and my memory was jogged by a scene in the docudrama when a police woman around Sheila's size was asked to demonstrate after the silencer was found and she couldn't reach the trigger when lying prone.
I think it would have been difficult for her in either case as it is quite a long barrel.  I think she must have been paralysed by terror when he shot her.


Yes, Brietta, DS Stan Jones asked one of the forensic lab women to see if she could reach the trigger whilst pointing the rifle at her neck.

She couldn’t even get close to it.

AND, the woman was 5”11”   —  Sheila was shorter at 5”7” & a half !

It was physically impossible for Sheila to have shot herself. TWICE too!

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 23, 2020, 12:53:23 AM
Usually or always? Which is it? The reason I quote sources is to enable others to check that what I say is correct. Please feel free to check and let me know in each case you have identified which posts you find where I have 'forgotten' what the source said. I will thank you and apologise for each one you draw my attention to.

I ask for sources for three reasons; because the rules say they should be provided, to ascetain that there is a source, rather than an opinion and so that I can check that others aren't 'forgetting' what their source said.

If you want to be pedantic, G-Unit, your “facts” are wrong the majority of the time, say, about 95%?

And your quotes aren’t correct; hence why you come unstuck most of the time. That’s why I suggested you’re either looking at false information or you are forgetful. It can only be one or the other, can’t it?

I most certainly am not traipsing through all your posts to point out your errors and misinformation: there’s far too many and I am not wasting my time correcting you. You would try (unsuccessfully) to twist all your slurs, falsehoods, outright untruths, because you can’t bear the fact Jeremy Bamber is a convicted mass murderer. I don’t know why you’re so desperate to want to believe he’s innocent, especially when all the evidence was so overwhelming against him.

It’s almost amusing how you say you like to quote from sources rather than give an opinion, when most of your sourced “facts” are wrong, and you’re constantly giving opinions — all of which are smashed to smithereens.

What’s more, there’d be no point to a discussion board if we could only quote established facts.

To see how good you are at forming opinions, perhaps you’d answer this: how do you think Sheila managed to:

A) Shoot herself with a rifle where she couldn’t reach the trigger

B) After the first shot blood poured furiously into her neck and out of her mouth: how did she manage to walk downstairs, put the silencer in a cupboard, walk upstairs again, without any of her blood spilling onto the front of her nightdress?

C) How did she manage to walk when she was possibly partially paralysed due to the bullet fracturing part of her spine?

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2020, 07:37:49 AM
If you want to be pedantic, G-Unit, your “facts” are wrong the majority of the time, say, about 95%?

And your quotes aren’t correct; hence why you come unstuck most of the time. That’s why I suggested you’re either looking at false information or you are forgetful. It can only be one or the other, can’t it?

I most certainly am not traipsing through all your posts to point out your errors and misinformation: there’s far too many and I am not wasting my time correcting you. You would try (unsuccessfully) to twist all your slurs, falsehoods, outright untruths, because you can’t bear the fact Jeremy Bamber is a convicted mass murderer. I don’t know why you’re so desperate to want to believe he’s innocent, especially when all the evidence was so overwhelming against him.

It’s almost amusing how you say you like to quote from sources rather than give an opinion, when most of your sourced “facts” are wrong, and you’re constantly giving opinions — all of which are smashed to smithereens.

What’s more, there’d be no point to a discussion board if we could only quote established facts.

To see how good you are at forming opinions, perhaps you’d answer this: how do you think Sheila managed to:

A) Shoot herself with a rifle where she couldn’t reach the trigger

B) After the first shot blood poured furiously into her neck and out of her mouth: how did she manage to walk downstairs, put the silencer in a cupboard, walk upstairs again, without any of her blood spilling onto the front of her nightdress?

C) How did she manage to walk when she was possibly partially paralysed due to the bullet fracturing part of her spine?

You're very good at making accusations but very bad at showing your evidence. Is that because you know you're wrong? Rest assured that going forward I will be watching your posts for accuracy.

We are allowed to post both facts and opinions so long as we make clear which is which.

I haven't looked at the questions you've asked yet, so you'll have to wait and see what I think.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 23, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
You're very good at making accusations but very bad at showing your evidence. Is that because you know you're wrong? Rest assured that going forward I will be watching your posts for accuracy.

We are allowed to post both facts and opinions so long as we make clear which is which.

I haven't looked at the questions you've asked yet, so you'll have to wait and see what I think.

Looking at the picture of Sheila at length, as ex army G, can you shed light on the fact that both her arms are in a really strange position considering she shot herself twice?

I agree with your argument about the guns storage,but wonder about Nevile phoning his son if the daughter was running around killing the family, surely his son would walk into death line as well?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 23, 2020, 09:54:22 PM
Looking at the picture of Sheila at length, as ex army G, can you shed light on the fact that both her arms are in a really strange position considering she shot herself twice?

I agree with your argument about the guns storage,but wonder about Nevile phoning his son if the daughter was running around killing the family, surely his son would walk into death line as well?

I'm an ex Army wife, Miss T, so I have no idea what she should look like.

I think Jeremy mentioned at some point that his father may have been forced to make the phone call to get him to the farm. In the end though, as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect. No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 23, 2020, 11:12:43 PM
I'm an ex Army wife, Miss T, so I have no idea what she should look like.

I think Jeremy mentioned at some point that his father may have been forced to make the phone call to get him to the farm. In the end though, as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect. No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.

Jeremy will say any old bollox.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 24, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
I'm an ex Army wife, Miss T, so I have no idea what she should look like.

I think Jeremy mentioned at some point that his father may have been forced to make the phone call to get him to the farm. In the end though, as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect. No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.

My apologies G  I must have confused you with another poster who was in the services.


'as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect.'

Was this a belief? or is there evidence  missed?  was this the ONLY reason no one believed him regarding the phone call.

Based solely on this one instance I am of the opinion that Nevill who was being shot at? and his family are being slaughtered by his deranged daughter had a thought to call his son and not 999.

'No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.'

It has to be agreed by all that the police were very slack on this case. many things are still up for debate. Apart from Colin, the twins dad, I am not warming to the extended family, Or his ex girlfriend. However, I do believe JB is guilty.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 24, 2020, 02:53:48 PM
My apologies G  I must have confused you with another poster who was in the services.


'as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect.'

Was this a belief? or is there evidence  missed?  was this the ONLY reason no one believed him regarding the phone call.

Based solely on this one instance I am of the opinion that Nevill who was being shot at? and his family are being slaughtered by his deranged daughter had a thought to call his son and not 999.

'No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.'

It has to be agreed by all that the police were very slack on this case. many things are still up for debate. Apart from Colin, the twins dad, I am not warming to the extended family, Or his ex girlfriend. However, I do believe JB is guilty.


Okay, so it wasn't their finest hour and the case is probably held up now as being "How Not To Do It". In fairness, however, I think one must examine the reasons why. It seems to me that there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation going on here. From the off, Essex Police were out of their depth. They may have done role plays covering such situations, but none would have experienced the real thing. Then they had Jeremy feeding them negative information at every turn. It seems that they may have been in separate groups, making difficult a unanimous decision. When one was arrived at, there'd have been Jeremy throwing a spanner in the works.

It seems to me that there had been delaying tactics being played out from the start. We have no clear idea of what time the slaughter occurred, but circa 3am may well have represented the time when Jeremy had become settled. He then makes the deliberate decision to delay getting police involved, by first calling Julie, rather than 999, followed by an extremely slow drive to WHF, further delaying any police action. He then, on various, Sheila related pretexts, manages to delay their entry still further. I strongly suspect that, left to their own devices, they'd have gained entry to WHF much sooner than they did.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 24, 2020, 03:02:39 PM
My apologies G  I must have confused you with another poster who was in the services.


'as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect.'

Was this a belief? or is there evidence  missed?  was this the ONLY reason no one believed him regarding the phone call.

Based solely on this one instance I am of the opinion that Nevill who was being shot at? and his family are being slaughtered by his deranged daughter had a thought to call his son and not 999.

'No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.'

It has to be agreed by all that the police were very slack on this case. many things are still up for debate. Apart from Colin, the twins dad, I am not warming to the extended family, Or his ex girlfriend. However, I do believe JB is guilty.

No, that isn't the reason for suspicion. It was his behaviour post murders and the fact that the family knew some of the things he claimed weren't sounding kosher.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 24, 2020, 03:30:41 PM
You're very good at making accusations but very bad at showing your evidence. Is that because you know you're wrong? Rest assured that going forward I will be watching your posts for accuracy.

We are allowed to post both facts and opinions so long as we make clear which is which.

I haven't looked at the questions you've asked yet, so you'll have to wait and see what I think.

And you can be rest assured, G-Unit, I couldn’t give a monkey’s how deeply you study my posts lol

You’re insignificant as far as I’m concerned

And it’s you, dear, that’s  wrong. Not me. I post FACTS — you post fairytale theories that don’t make sense, to anyone.


You’re incapable of giving a feasible opinion, even when faced with FACTS.
Do you write to those serial murderers  on Death Row in America too?

I wonder what your fascination is...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 24, 2020, 03:38:26 PM
I'm an ex Army wife, Miss T, so I have no idea what she should look like.

I think Jeremy mentioned at some point that his father may have been forced to make the phone call to get him to the farm. In the end though, as nobody believed that Nevill phoned his son, Jeremy became the prime suspect. No enquiries were made into any other possible perpetrators.

So you think Sheila marched Nevill to the phone and forced him to phone Jeremy?



This has all been gone through before, but STILL it hasn’t got through to you....

That would have been IMPOSSIBLE.

You still haven’t answered my questions....why didn’t Sheila have any blood, glass or sugar on her feet? After all, you’re suggesting she fought violently with Nevill in the kitchen, even overpowering him and killing him, yet there’s not ONE shred of evidence she’d been anywhere NEAR the kitchen.

And if she wanted Jeremy to come over, why did she cut the phone off?

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2020, 03:51:46 PM
And you can be rest assured, G-Unit, I couldn’t give a monkey’s how deeply you study my posts lol

You’re insignificant as far as I’m concerned

And it’s you, dear, that’s  wrong. Not me. I post FACTS — you post fairytale theories that don’t make sense, to anyone.

You’re a mess. A total mess.

You’re incapable of giving a feasible opinion, even when faced with FACTS. Why don’t you admit that you have a strange attraction towards psychopaths who are mass murderers? You certainly come across that way.

Do you write to those serial murderers  on Death Row in America too?

I wonder what your fascination is...

Has it occured to you that you have anger issues? You seem unable to control yourself enough to take note of and comply with forum rules.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 24, 2020, 04:22:50 PM
And you can be rest assured, G-Unit, I couldn’t give a monkey’s how deeply you study my posts lol

You’re insignificant as far as I’m concerned

And it’s you, dear, that’s  wrong. Not me. I post FACTS — you post fairytale theories that don’t make sense, to anyone.

You’re a mess. A total mess.

You’re incapable of giving a feasible opinion, even when faced with FACTS. Why don’t you admit that you have a strange attraction towards psychopaths who are mass murderers? You certainly come across that way.

Do you write to those serial murderers  on Death Row in America too?

I wonder what your fascination is...

Do you really need to post such horrible personal comments?  G Unit is entitled to her opinion and is graceful enough to answer questions politely. Calling some one a total mess IS against forum rules.

The rules stipulate that posts can be challenged not the people posting them.  Take note Mods!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2020, 05:08:41 PM
Do you really need to post such horrible personal comments?  G Unit is entitled to her opinion and is graceful enough to answer questions politely. Calling some one a total mess IS against forum rules.

The rules stipulate that posts can be challenged not the people posting them.  Take note Mods!

I certainly seem to attract the ire of a certain type of poster, don't I?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 24, 2020, 05:12:30 PM
I certainly seem to attract the ire of a certain type of poster, don't I?  @)(++(*

Yes, why is that you think?  lol  I find the points you raise to be interesting and worthy of discussion.

 Maybe because we are newbies/outsiders. ?{)(**
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 24, 2020, 05:17:21 PM
Yes, why is that you think?  lol  I find the points you raise to be interesting and worthy of discussion.

 Maybe because we are newbies/outsiders. ?{)(**

Ispywithmybigeye is by no means a long established poster.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 24, 2020, 05:36:58 PM
I certainly seem to attract the ire of a certain type of poster, don't I?  @)(++(*
I know why, but if I explained it I’d probably get a warning. 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 24, 2020, 07:22:27 PM
I have, yet again, had to edit posts from one particular person who does not seem to understand forum rules.

Please do NOT make personal remarks about other posters.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 25, 2020, 02:08:07 AM
I know why, but if I explained it I’d probably get a warning.

 (&^&
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2020, 11:06:26 AM
I know why, but if I explained it I’d probably get a warning.

Is that because your explanation would break forum rules?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 25, 2020, 04:44:29 PM
Is that because your explanation would break forum rules?
I don’t think we’re allowed to speak our opinions of others honestly and openly are we, so yes I would be breaking forum rules.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2020, 05:00:33 PM
I don’t think we’re allowed to speak our opinions of others honestly and openly are we, so yes I would be breaking forum rules.

I think it depends on how you express your opinions. If you can express yourself without hurling accusations and insults at others you are free to post.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 25, 2020, 05:14:29 PM
I think it depends on how you express your opinions. If you can express yourself without hurling accusations and insults at others you are free to post.
I think you would consider unfavourable opinions of your posting style and cognitive abilities to be “hurling insults and accusations “ or “abuse” as you like to call it, so I shall keep my opinions to myself as I appreciate how sensitive you can be.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2020, 05:51:36 PM
I think you would consider unfavourable opinions of your posting style and cognitive abilities to be “hurling insults and accusations “ or “abuse” as you like to call it, so I shall keep my opinions to myself as I appreciate how sensitive you can be.

As the moderators often seem to agree with my opinion of your posts that's very wise.  8**8:/:
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 25, 2020, 05:53:02 PM
As the moderators often seem to agree with my opinion of your posts that's very wise.  8**8:/:
I wish I was Teacher’s Pet  8(8-))
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 25, 2020, 05:59:38 PM
As the moderators often seem to agree with my opinion of your posts that's very wise.  8**8:/:


G-Unit, that response has the definite ring about it of Nuh Nuh N Nuh Nuh. Not very gracious.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 06:22:57 PM
As the moderators often seem to agree with my opinion of your posts that's very wise.  8**8:/:

They also in the main, think Bamber is innocent. Personally, I have no problem with you but you do come over as trying to teach G'ma how to suck eggs.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 06:32:34 PM
I stocked up with a month's supply of Cadbury's Creme Eggs for the duration... they're sucking fantastic.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 25, 2020, 06:33:52 PM
They also in the main, think Bamber is innocent. Personally, I have no problem with you but you do come over as trying to teach G'ma how to suck eggs.
Holly’s a moderator isn’t she?  Her and G-Unit are a Mutual Admiration Society, I expect I will be punished for daring to mention it.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 06:38:22 PM
Holly's out on a jolly with her pet.  Sorry, her Pete.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 06:53:29 PM
Caroline!   Tesko now claims that Bamber told him the rear wooden stock of the Anschutz was loose and hinged only at one point by a pin (29) when this was handled by David Boutflour in court.  Is there any truth in this?  The stock should have been securely fixed by a bolt (32), so do you think that this might have broken off in addition to wooden shard during the struggle with his father. Or could this bolt have been removed when the rifle was examined at the lab?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 06:54:13 PM
I stocked up with a month's supply of Cadbury's Creme Eggs for the duration... they're sucking fantastic.

Your teeth will all fall out!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 07:04:22 PM
Caroline!   Tesko now claims that Bamber told him the rear wooden stock of the Anschutz was loose and hinged only at one point by a pin (29) when this was handled by David Boutflour in court.  Is there any truth in this?  The stock should have been securely fixed by a bolt (32), so do you think that this might have broken off in addition to wooden shard during the struggle with his father. Or could this bolt have been removed when the rifle was examined at the lab?

It was shown to be in one piece in pictures after the murders. How could Glynis Howard demonstrate the following with the weapon if it were in the state Bamber claims?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 07:06:04 PM
Your teeth will all fall out!
I'll suffer in ecstasy though.  8)--))
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
It was shown to be in one piece in pictures after the murders. How could Glynis Howard demonstrate the following with the weapon if it were in the state Bamber claims?

In court.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 07:12:25 PM
It was shown to be in one piece in pictures after the murders. How could Glynis Howard demonstrate the following with the weapon if it were in the state Bamber claims?
PC Whiddon is holding it firmly where the shard broke off though, and GH might have done the same in court.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 07:18:16 PM
PC Whiddon is holding it firmly where the shard broke off though, and GH might have done the same in court.

Not in this one he isn't.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Myster on March 25, 2020, 07:28:31 PM
Not in this one he isn't.
Shucks... Back to the drawing board then.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2020, 07:46:29 PM

G-Unit, that response has the definite ring about it of Nuh Nuh N Nuh Nuh. Not very gracious.

I have been targetted by VS for a long time.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 25, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
I have been targetted by VS for a long time.

Please allow this to be the last word on the subject. Thank you.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 25, 2020, 08:05:44 PM
I have been targetted by VS for a long time.
Anyone who posts regularly on a forum, and holds “controversial” views such as yours can expect to be challenged.  If you don’t like it you know what you can do.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
Shucks... Back to the drawing board then.

But kinda means Bamber is lying.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 08:10:23 PM
I have been targetted by VS for a long time.

Cast your mind back a few days ago when you and another poster claimed that others take things personally? Hmmmmm
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 25, 2020, 08:26:50 PM
Cast your mind back a few days ago when you and another poster claimed that others take things personally? Hmmmmm

I think that was referring to being emotionally involved in the case if I recall? What has that got to do with being personally insulted?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 09:48:13 PM
I think that was referring to being emotionally involved in the case if I recall? What has that got to do with being personally insulted?

How do you know others are 'emotionally involved? If you criticise others on a personal level, then they will just return the favour. Although I agree that perhaps some people can be a little OTT.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 25, 2020, 10:14:42 PM
I'll suffer in ecstasy though.  8)--))


And you'll put on weight-------------
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 25, 2020, 11:14:08 PM

And you'll put on weight-------------

Think that's inevitable for all of us at the moment  @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 26, 2020, 10:47:35 AM
Think that's inevitable for all of us at the moment  @)(++(*

Yep, and even more so, now that  off licences are now considered to be among the  "essential" shops allowed to open.



Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 26, 2020, 11:05:50 AM
Yep, and even more so, now that  off licences are now considered to be among the  "essential" shops allowed to open.

I wonder how many let out a sigh of relief when that was decided  @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 26, 2020, 11:11:26 AM
I wonder how many let out a sigh of relief when that was decided  @)(++(*


The off licences for starters @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 26, 2020, 11:35:39 AM

The off licences for starters @)(++(* @)(++(*

Not so sure I'd be happy to stay open if I had an off. I'd be quite happy to shut safe in the knowledge that wine o'clock was safe  @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 26, 2020, 11:09:12 PM
Is that because your explanation would break forum rules?

For someone who insists they abide by forum rules, it’s astonishing that you support a man who is guilty of shooting dead his mother, father, sister and two little six-year-old nephews.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 26, 2020, 11:16:48 PM
Caroline!   Tesko now claims that Bamber told him the rear wooden stock of the Anschutz was loose and hinged only at one point by a pin (29) when this was handled by David Boutflour in court.  Is there any truth in this?  The stock should have been securely fixed by a bolt (32), so do you think that this might have broken off in addition to wooden shard during the struggle with his father. Or could this bolt have been removed when the rifle was examined at the lab?

Sorry to hijack your post, but for someone who proclaimed he didn’t like shooting, he sure took a lot of time examining  that Anschutz...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 26, 2020, 11:25:27 PM
For someone who insists they abide by forum rules, it’s astonishing that you support a man who is guilty of shooting dead his mother, father, sister and two little six-year-old nephews.

I do abide by forum rules and I've never said that I support anyone, I think you're leaping to conclusions there.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 26, 2020, 11:34:28 PM
It was shown to be in one piece in pictures after the murders. How could Glynis Howard demonstrate the following with the weapon if it were in the state Bamber claims?

That’s one of the reasons why Jeremy had them cremated...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 26, 2020, 11:35:25 PM
I do abide by forum rules and I've never said that I support anyone, I think you're leaping to conclusions there.

Well, I think it's a conclusion that other would have come to also.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 26, 2020, 11:35:56 PM
That’s one of the reasons why Jeremy had them cremated...

In what way?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 27, 2020, 01:03:09 AM
Well, I think it's a conclusion that other would have come to also.


Questioning somebody's guilt, and supporting their innocence are two very different things, IMO.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 01:22:18 AM

Questioning somebody's guilt, and supporting their innocence are two very different things, IMO.

It depends how you resent it.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 27, 2020, 06:41:59 AM
I do abide by forum rules and I've never said that I support anyone, I think you're leaping to conclusions there.


A conclusion your every word makes it easy to leap to.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2020, 07:35:06 AM
I do abide by forum rules and I've never said that I support anyone, I think you're leaping to conclusions there.
If you were truly open minded you would question the evidence both ways, and you would not repeatedly ignore certain of the evidence which clearly points to Sheila’s non-involvement in the killings.  IMO.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 27, 2020, 08:13:46 AM
In what way?

Various reasons.

One would be that although the pathologist would have recorded the height and weight of Sheila, he wouldn’t have measured the length of her arms. And that alone would have proved she couldn’t have shot herself.

It’s also possible that Nevill, June or Sheila could have had minute traces of Jeremy’s skin/blood underneath their fingernails — but samples weren’t taken as the police insisted it was a murder/suicide. During the violent struggle with Nevill one of Jeremy’s gloves fell off, and that REALLY concerned him for some reason.

Jeremy had scratches on his hand, noticed on the day of the murders and days later too. The police saw them, as did the secretary and various other people. He claimed he’d hurt himself on the tractor, but he would say that wouldn’t he...

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
Well, I think it's a conclusion that other would have come to also.

Just because people reach a conclusion doesn't mean they're right.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 09:31:24 AM

A conclusion your every word makes it easy to leap to.

Only those prone to leaping imo.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 09:33:25 AM

Questioning somebody's guilt, and supporting their innocence are two very different things, IMO.

You know that and I know that, but some seem to find the difference difficult to grasp.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 27, 2020, 09:45:47 AM
Just because people reach a conclusion doesn't mean they're right.


So you’re finally admitting your conclusion doesn’t mean you’re right, G-unit...
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 10:46:47 AM

So you’re finally admitting your conclusion doesn’t mean you’re right, G-unit...

I'm not discussing my conclusions, I'm discussing those which others have leaped to.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 11:49:51 AM
Just because people reach a conclusion doesn't mean they're right.

There are lots of people who claim that they are fence sitters, you can tell when they aren't because they never accept any evidence that Bamber is responsible and make silly excuses for behaviour that is clearly at odds with an innocent man - you do that.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 12:24:41 PM
There are lots of people who claim that they are fence sitters, you can tell when they aren't because they never accept any evidence that Bamber is responsible and make silly excuses for behaviour that is clearly at odds with an innocent man - you do that.

Do I? Do you have examples?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 27, 2020, 12:36:23 PM
Do I? Do you have examples?


Provided by a high percentage of your posts.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 12:40:01 PM
Do I? Do you have examples?

Uh huh!

Here you admit that Nevill calling Jeremy is unlikely, but rather than accept that Bamber made it up, you invent another caller.

I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't.  Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?

If Nevill didn't call, it makes Bamber guilty - the excuse of another caller makes no sense. How can said caller be sure Bamber wouldn't call the police and they would be trapped inside WHF with % bodies and why did said person make it look as though Sheila killed herself. You don't think Nevill called Jeremy - yet you still make excuses!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: G-Unit on March 27, 2020, 01:24:09 PM
Uh huh!

Here you admit that Nevill calling Jeremy is unlikely, but rather than accept that Bamber made it up, you invent another caller.

If Nevill didn't call, it makes Bamber guilty - the excuse of another caller makes no sense. How can said caller be sure Bamber wouldn't call the police and they would be trapped inside WHF with % bodies and why did said person make it look as though Sheila killed herself. You don't think Nevill called Jeremy - yet you still make excuses!

I don't make excuses, I explore possibilities. I don't know if Nevill phoned Jeremy, but it's possible he did. It's also possible that he was forced at gunpoint to make the call. The marks on his upper back were never explained, for example.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 27, 2020, 01:41:21 PM
I'm not discussing my conclusions, I'm discussing those which others have leaped to.

That isn’t what I asked, G-Unit

I repeated what you said, that “people reach the wrong conclusions”

In which case, that means you can too — or are you cleverer than everyone else including the police, lawyers, barristers, jury, judge, High Court Appeal Judges, Home Secretary and the Judges at the European Court of Human Rights?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 27, 2020, 01:50:03 PM
I don't make excuses, I explore possibilities. I don't know if Nevill phoned Jeremy, but it's possible he did. It's also possible that he was forced at gunpoint to make the call. The marks on his upper back were never explained, for example.


You explore possibilities that are impossibility’s

That’s why I can’t take your posts seriously.

As if Sheila could have held Nevill at gunpoint and forced him to phone Jeremy! And then cut him off!

It’s utter claptrap.

Everyone except a few  know he killed his family, hence why he’s in prison and will die in prison.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 27, 2020, 01:55:36 PM
There are lots of people who claim that they are fence sitters, you can tell when they aren't because they never accept any evidence that Bamber is responsible and make silly excuses for behaviour that is clearly at odds with an innocent man - you do that.


Why would anyone claim to be a "fence sitter" if they're not?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2020, 04:42:24 PM

Why would anyone claim to be a "fence sitter" if they're not?
Then you never have to defend your position.  It’s a ruse basically to pretend not to have any opinions.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 04:59:53 PM
I don't make excuses, I explore possibilities. I don't know if Nevill phoned Jeremy, but it's possible he did. It's also possible that he was forced at gunpoint to make the call. The marks on his upper back were never explained, for example.

Well, one man/woman's possibility is another's excuse and given that you have already said you don't think Nevill would have called Jeremy, I'm not sure what your argument is.

It's really not possible that he was forced at gunpoint to make the call - it's really pure fantasy and the marks on Nevill's back could have been there prior to the murders.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 05:02:23 PM

Why would anyone claim to be a "fence sitter" if they're not?

I think it's because they don't want to come out and state that they think he's innocent because if proven wrong, they wouldn't like it. Gives them the option to hedge their bets.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 27, 2020, 05:03:09 PM
Them you never have to defend your position.  It’s a ruse basically to pretend not to have any opinions.

And some people just don't like to admit to being wrong.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 27, 2020, 08:29:47 PM
I think it's because they don't want to come out and state that they think he's innocent because if proven wrong, they wouldn't like it. Gives them the option to hedge their bets.


Hm---------- I don't state he's innocent, because I think he's probably guilty. Trouble is, I'm not sure, so the fence is the right place for me. 

It does creak rather a lot though, my fence, I have to admit.  I'm concerned that I'm veering towards his guilt merely because I don't like him.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 27, 2020, 08:33:41 PM
Then you never have to defend your position.  It’s a ruse basically to pretend not to have any opinions.


Nonsense. I do have opinions, even if they keep changing!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on March 27, 2020, 08:43:30 PM

Nonsense. I do have opinions, even if they keep changing!
You’re that rare thing on a discussion forum then - an honest, real fencesitter.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 27, 2020, 08:57:49 PM
You’re that rare thing on a discussion forum then - an honest, real fencesitter.

Actually, I find fence sitting a bit of a nuisance. It's about time I made up my mind about this case! I remember when it happened.

I was on a Facebook discussion group while the TV series was airing.  There were quite a few fence sitters on there----was hoping one or two of them might find their way over here!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 28, 2020, 04:27:15 AM

Hm---------- I don't state he's innocent, because I think he's probably guilty. Trouble is, I'm not sure, so the fence is the right place for me. 

It does creak rather a lot though, my fence, I have to admit.  I'm concerned that I'm veering towards his guilt merely because I don't like him.


How can you ignore all the overwhelming evidence which proved beyond doubt that he murdered all his family?

He had a trial; was found guilty; has lost all his appeals — so what don’t you understand about the fact he’s guilty?

As an aside, I hope you’re never called for jury service, because if you’d find someone guilty simply because you didn’t like them you shouldn’t be allowed to sit on a jury. You can’t find someone guilty just because you don’t like them! In the same way you can’t find someone not guilty just because you take a shine to them. You have to be impartial. 
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: adam on March 28, 2020, 09:41:16 AM
A poster said recently there is no 'smoking gun' so could not vote guilty. 

Assume this means no witnesses, CCTV, accused blood at the scene, victims blood at his home etc. Or not being caught red handed, 'it's a fair cop guv'.

If a smoking gun was always needed, no one would be in prison.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 09:57:50 AM

How can you ignore all the overwhelming evidence which proved beyond doubt that he murdered all his family?

He had a trial; was found guilty; has lost all his appeals — so what don’t you understand about the fact he’s guilty?

As an aside, I hope you’re never called for jury service, because if you’d find someone guilty simply because you didn’t like them you shouldn’t be allowed to sit on a jury. You can’t find someone guilty just because you don’t like them! In the same way you can’t find someone not guilty just because you take a shine to them. You have to be impartial.


Who said that, if I were on a jury, I would find someone guilty because I didn't like them? That isn't what I said at all. I'm considering the case years after the event, and I know very well that any dislike I feel about Jeremy is only from what I've read.  I'm also fully aware that what one reads isn't always the truth.

I like to think that, were I to sit on a jury, I would consider all the evidence very carefully (and I hope you would too).

We have been over the fact that Jeremy was found guilty and lost his appeals, several times now. Yes, he is a convicted murderer, yes, he is legally guilty.

But, is he factually guilty?

Is the evidence against him really overwhelming? 

Why did two jurors NOT think him guilty?  Please don't say it's because they were women and they "fancied" him!!




Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 10:00:45 AM
A poster said recently there is no 'smoking gun' so could not vote guilty. 

Assume this means no witnesses, CCTV, accused blood at the scene, victims blood at his home etc. Or not being caught red handed, 'it's a fair cop guv'.

If a smoking gun was always needed, no one would be in prison.

Oh, of course they would!!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: adam on March 28, 2020, 10:14:56 AM

Who said that, if I were on a jury, I would find someone guilty because I didn't like them? That isn't what I said at all. I'm considering the case years after the event, and I know very well that any dislike I feel about Jeremy is only from what I've read.  I'm also fully aware that what one reads isn't always the truth.

I like to think that, were I to sit on a jury, I would consider all the evidence very carefully (and I hope you would too).

We have been over the fact that Jeremy was found guilty and lost his appeals, several times now. Yes, he is a convicted murderer, yes, he is legally guilty.

But, is he factually guilty?

Is the evidence against him really overwhelming? 

Why did two jurors NOT think him guilty?  Please don't say it's because they were women and they "fancied" him!!

Well there is one alive suspect, with several motives, an opportunity and no alibi. And one witness - Julie Mugford.

There is over 60 pieces of forensic evidence which shows it was not Sheila. From the Court of Appeal.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 28, 2020, 11:43:33 AM

Who said that, if I were on a jury, I would find someone guilty because I didn't like them? That isn't what I said at all. I'm considering the case years after the event, and I know very well that any dislike I feel about Jeremy is only from what I've read.  I'm also fully aware that what one reads isn't always the truth.

I like to think that, were I to sit on a jury, I would consider all the evidence very carefully (and I hope you would too).

We have been over the fact that Jeremy was found guilty and lost his appeals, several times now. Yes, he is a convicted murderer, yes, he is legally guilty.

But, is he factually guilty?

Is the evidence against him really overwhelming? 

Why did two jurors NOT think him guilty?  Please don't say it's because they were women and they "fancied" him!!


You said, MrsWah, and I quote:  “ I'm concerned that I'm veering towards his guilt merely because I don't like him.”

That suggests you’re allowing your personal feelings about him to sway you...

You’re correct that you shouldn’t believe everything you read — just look at the lies, exaggerations and rubbish that Jeremy Bamber and his “team” put out.

However, not EVERYONE can be wrong and untruthful, nor are official reports fabrications and lies. Almost every person who’s had contact with JB, knew him well etc all say the same: he’s a cold-blooded liar and he’s guilty. They can’t ALL be wrong.

You’re also forgetting a little stumbling block: EVIDENCE.

And evidence proves he was guilty.

As for just the two jurors out of 12 who weren’t sure he was guilty, that happens in many cases, hence why we have 12 jurors. By the law of averages you’ll always get a couple of jurors who aren’t particularly bright, so the law accounts for that by allowing a majority decision. Ten men and women were convinced beyond doubt that he is guilty, and as he’s lost appeals since then it simply proves their decision was the right one. Furthermore, IF he ever got to appeal again (which won’t happen), but if he did, he’d lose again. Not just because he’s guilty, but SINCE his conviction even MORE damning evidence has surfaced against him , so he doesn’t have a hope in hell of worming his way out.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Brietta on March 28, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
I think that the evidence is overwhelming that Sheila had neither interest nor expertise in any of the firearms kept at the farm; and unless she was an accomplished actress when 'feigning' the effect of the prescribed drugs found in her system would not have been in the physical condition necessary to enable the coordination evident in the slaughter of herself and her family.

I am at a bit of a loss why we are even bothering to give thought to consideration of Jeremy Bamber's conviction for one of the most heinous crimes of the past fifty years.
In my opinion the fact that there was sufficient evidence to convict him despite the marvellous job the police initially carried out of getting rid of evidence which must have convinced him he'd walked into his fortune having got off with the massacre of his family scot-free and it shows that if the crime scene had not been destroyed there would be absolutely no room for anyone to doubt his guilt.

I watched the part of the docudrama where the police put mattresses etc into a fire pit open mouthed (until then I had no idea it was possible for anything like that to happen almost before the bodies of the victims were cold).

If I was in the habit of shouting at the television the neighbours would have heard me when I realised from the docudrama that the bodies had been released for cremation!
Until then the dominant image I had from the time was Mugford supporting Bamber in the funeral procession.  It never occurred to me that there was a cremation not a burial.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 04:21:45 PM

You said, MrsWah, and I quote:  “ I'm concerned that I'm veering towards his guilt merely because I don't like him.”

That suggests you’re allowing your personal feelings about him to sway you...

You’re correct that you shouldn’t believe everything you read — just look at the lies, exaggerations and rubbish that Jeremy Bamber and his “team” put out.

However, not EVERYONE can be wrong and untruthful, nor are official reports fabrications and lies. Almost every person who’s had contact with JB, knew him well etc all say the same: he’s a cold-blooded liar and he’s guilty. They can’t ALL be wrong.

You’re also forgetting a little stumbling block: EVIDENCE.

And evidence proves he was guilty.

As for just the two jurors out of 12 who weren’t sure he was guilty, that happens in many cases, hence why we have 12 jurors. By the law of averages you’ll always get a couple of jurors who aren’t particularly bright, so the law accounts for that by allowing a majority decision. Ten men and women were convinced beyond doubt that he is guilty, and as he’s lost appeals since then it simply proves their decision was the right one. Furthermore, IF he ever got to appeal again (which won’t happen), but if he did, he’d lose again. Not just because he’s guilty, but SINCE his conviction even MORE damning evidence has surfaced against him , so he doesn’t have a hope in hell of worming his way out.


Of course I'm letting my personal feelings sway me.  It is 35 years later. I don't know Jeremy, nor did I ever know anyone involved in the case, and I wasn't in court. All my information comes from books, articles, and people on forums, and I have never spoken to Jeremy, nor have I written to him.

This is NOT the same as actually being on the jury, and being part of the body of people deciding a person's fate.Of course I would take that seriously! 

I don't agree that the jurors who didn't think Jeremy was guilty, were necessarily "not particularly bright", however, I do believe that some people on juries are exactly that-----not particularly bright. Also, not particularly interested, and also, easily swayed. I am also concerned that some people on juries may be bullied into taking a certain stance, although that's a topic for another day, and I'm not saying it happened in Bamber's case.

You mentioned on another post that Jeremy is "thick"( in your opinion). I have heard that said before. What I wonder is, if he is "thick" , how did he manage to plan and execute those murders as efficiently as he did ?  I would have thought that, yes, of course he could well have done it, but he would have actually had to be rather clever to have done so.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 04:25:08 PM
Well there is one alive suspect, with several motives, an opportunity and no alibi. And one witness - Julie Mugford.

There is over 60 pieces of forensic evidence which shows it was not Sheila. From the Court of Appeal.


I have the link---I will read it. Have read some of it before, but not all of it.  However, these days, I have more time on my hands!!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 28, 2020, 08:25:27 PM

Of course I'm letting my personal feelings sway me.  It is 35 years later. I don't know Jeremy, nor did I ever know anyone involved in the case, and I wasn't in court. All my information comes from books, articles, and people on forums, and I have never spoken to Jeremy, nor have I written to him.

This is NOT the same as actually being on the jury, and being part of the body of people deciding a person's fate.Of course I would take that seriously! 

I don't agree that the jurors who didn't think Jeremy was guilty, were necessarily "not particularly bright", however, I do believe that some people on juries are exactly that-----not particularly bright. Also, not particularly interested, and also, easily swayed. I am also concerned that some people on juries may be bullied into taking a certain stance, although that's a topic for another day, and I'm not saying it happened in Bamber's case.

You mentioned on another post that Jeremy is "thick"( in your opinion). I have heard that said before. What I wonder is, if he is "thick" , how did he manage to plan and execute those murders as efficiently as he did ?  I would have thought that, yes, of course he could well have done it, but he would have actually had to be rather clever to have done so.


Mrs Wah, you’re “assuming” those two jurors didn’t think Jeremy was guilty: they may not have, but equally they may have been unsure of his guilt. And considering 10 of the jurors were indeed convinced of his guilt, that sugggests those two had difficulty forming opinions, or were biased in some way.

You also need reminding that Jeremy had one of the top QC’s in the country at that time: so if he wasn’t able to persuade the jury that Jeremy was innocent, that doesn’t bode well for him, does it?

As for your preposterous belief that Jeremy “executed those murders efficiently “ and was “rather clever” in carrying them out, besides seeming to admire him for doing such a heinous deed, he was anything BUT clever, hence why he was arrested relatively soon after. Just some of his mistakes were:

~ He told Julie of his plan
~ He was too arrogant to believe she’d give him away
~ He didn’t think through about Sheila being unable to shoot herself with the silencer attached
~ Rather than leaving the silencer by Sheila’s side he hid it in a cupboard
~ It didn’t occur to him that Sheila’s blood could be deep inside the silencer
~ He hadn’t banked on Nevill putting up a violent struggle
~ He beat Nevill to a pulp — something Sheila couldn’t possibly have done
~ He didn’t force Sheila to walk in the kitchen so she’d get glass, sugar and blood on her feet
~ He didn’t push Sheila against Nevill’s dead body so she’d have his blood on her
~ He didn’t break any of her long fingernails
~ He didn’t shoot Sheila in the twins bedroom
~ He didn’t smear blood on the telephone in the kitchen
~ He didn’t leave the receiver dangling down — he simply placed it by its cradle
~ He didn’t realise it would have been impossible for Nevill to speak having had his mouth shot to pieces
~ He didn’t place Sheila’s fingertips all over the gun
~ He didn’t dial 999
~ He phoned Julie before calling the local police
~ He lied to officers about the timing of his phone calls
~ He drove unusually slow to WHF
~ He behaved unnaturally calm at the scene and even spoke about buying a Porsche
~ He told numerous lies and contradicted himself in his two statements
~ He claimed he’d tried to shoot rabbits with the gun he said had no silencer or scope on
~ He gave different accounts of where he’d supposedly left the gun
~ He lied about why he had June’s new bicycle at his house
~ He told police it was impossible to break-in to WHF as it was all locked from inside, but didn’t mention the faulty latch
~ He later pretended he’d broken into the window to get car documents after police found his blade
~ He didn’t have the nous to realise he was under surveillance & police knew he hadn’t gone there
~ His left his wetsuit at WHF without his snorkel & flippers which were at Goldhanger: Julie said it was always at GH
~ He started “celebrating” the very next day; Chamoagne/expensive meals/ two holidays/spending sprees
~ He sold family heirlooms within days
~ He insisted the family be cremated
~ He went to The Sun trying to sell nude photos of Sheila

And that’s just some of his huge slip-ups...

And you say he planned and executed the murders efficiently?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 09:38:26 PM

Mrs Wah, you’re “assuming” those two jurors didn’t think Jeremy was guilty: they may not have, but equally they may have been unsure of his guilt. And considering 10 of the jurors were indeed convinced of his guilt, that sugggests those two had difficulty forming opinions, or were biased in some way.

You also need reminding that Jeremy had one of the top QC’s in the country at that time: so if he wasn’t able to persuade the jury that Jeremy was innocent, that doesn’t bode well for him, does it?

As for your preposterous belief that Jeremy “executed those murders efficiently “ and was “rather clever” in carrying them out, besides seeming to admire him for doing such a heinous deed, he was anything BUT clever, hence why he was arrested relatively soon after. Just some of his mistakes were:

~ He told Julie of his plan
~ He was too arrogant to believe she’d give him away
~ He didn’t think through about Sheila being unable to shoot herself with the silencer attached
~ Rather than leaving the silencer by Sheila’s side he hid it in a cupboard
~ It didn’t occur to him that Sheila’s blood could be deep inside the silencer
~ He hadn’t banked on Nevill putting up a violent struggle
~ He beat Nevill to a pulp — something Sheila couldn’t possibly have done
~ He didn’t force Sheila to walk in the kitchen so she’d get glass, sugar and blood on her feet
~ He didn’t push Sheila against Nevill’s dead body so she’d have his blood on her
~ He didn’t break any of her long fingernails
~ He didn’t shoot Sheila in the twins bedroom
~ He didn’t smear blood on the telephone in the kitchen
~ He didn’t leave the receiver dangling down — he simply placed it by its cradle
~ He didn’t realise it would have been impossible for Nevill to speak having had his mouth shot to pieces
~ He didn’t place Sheila’s fingertips all over the gun
~ He didn’t dial 999
~ He phoned Julie before calling the local police
~ He lied to officers about the timing of his phone calls
~ He drove unusually slow to WHF
~ He behaved unnaturally calm at the scene and even spoke about buying a Porsche
~ He told numerous lies and contradicted himself in his two statements
~ He claimed he’d tried to shoot rabbits with the gun he said had no silencer or scope on
~ He gave different accounts of where he’d supposedly left the gun
~ He lied about why he had June’s new bicycle at his house
~ He told police it was impossible to break-in to WHF as it was all locked from inside, but didn’t mention the faulty latch
~ He later pretended he’d broken into the window to get car documents after police found his blade
~ He didn’t have the nous to realise he was under surveillance & police knew he hadn’t gone there
~ His left his wetsuit at WHF without his snorkel & flippers which were at Goldhanger: Julie said it was always at GH
~ He started “celebrating” the very next day; Chamoagne/expensive meals/ two holidays/spending sprees
~ He sold family heirlooms within days
~ He insisted the family be cremated
~ He went to The Sun trying to sell nude photos of Sheila

And that’s just some of his huge slip-ups...

And you say he planned and executed the murders efficiently?


No, I don't "seem to admire him".  It does seem, however, that you still find it difficult to reply to posts without slipping in personal remarks about other posters!

As for all the points you make, you may be correct that they all happened as you say, but many of them have been debated over and over, and not everyone agrees. For instance, if you read Scott Lomax's book, he says that Sheila did not have immaculate nails. Now, I don't know whether you are right or he is, but I'm saying it's been debated. Some people even disagree that the blood in the silencer was Sheila's.  Again, I don't know who is right, but I am saying that not everybody agrees with you. And, not everybody believes Julie's story,or that there was only one phone call.



If it was all so obvious, as you say, I would have expected the police to have "cottoned on" to the true situation long before they did. Police officers make mistakes, but in general, my common sense tells me that they know what they are doing.

It all happened so long ago now, and it's all been argued/debated for so many years, that I doubt it's even possible to know for sure what is true and what isn't.  For what it's worth, though, I don't believe JB is going to be winning any appeals .
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 28, 2020, 09:50:05 PM

No, I don't "seem to admire him".  It does seem, however, that you still find it difficult to reply to posts without slipping in personal remarks about other posters!

As for all the points you make, you may be correct that they all happened as you say, but many of them have been debated over and over, and not everyone agrees. For instance, if you read Scott Lomax's book, he says that Sheila did not have immaculate nails. Now, I don't know whether you are right or he is, but I'm saying it's been debated. Some people even disagree that the blood in the silencer was Sheila's.  Again, I don't know who is right, but I am saying that not everybody agrees with you. And, not everybody believes Julie's story,or that there was only one phone call.



If it was all so obvious, as you say, I would have expected the police to have "cottoned on" to the true situation long before they did. Police officers make mistakes, but in general, my common sense tells me that they know what they are doing.

It all happened so long ago now, and it's all been argued/debated for so many years, that I doubt it's even possible to know for sure what is true and what isn't.  For what it's worth, though, I don't believe JB is going to be winning any appeals .

Sorry Mrswah, but you can see she has immaculate nails.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: APRIL on March 28, 2020, 10:06:56 PM

No, I don't "seem to admire him".  It does seem, however, that you still find it difficult to reply to posts without slipping in personal remarks about other posters!

As for all the points you make, you may be correct that they all happened as you say, but many of them have been debated over and over, and not everyone agrees. For instance, if you read Scott Lomax's book, he says that Sheila did not have immaculate nails. Now, I don't know whether you are right or he is, but I'm saying it's been debated. Some people even disagree that the blood in the silencer was Sheila's.  Again, I don't know who is right, but I am saying that not everybody agrees with you. And, not everybody believes Julie's story,or that there was only one phone call.



If it was all so obvious, as you say, I would have expected the police to have "cottoned on" to the true situation long before they did. Police officers make mistakes, but in general, my common sense tells me that they know what they are doing.

It all happened so long ago now, and it's all been argued/debated for so many years, that I doubt it's even possible to know for sure what is true and what isn't.  For what it's worth, though, I don't believe JB is going to be winning any appeals .


Look, I know the police didn't do their finest work, for which I blame Jeremy, but I get really pxxxxd off when I hear them being lumped together. My friend's late husband was one of the attending officers. He interviewed Jeremy and he never had any doubts about his guilt, NOR did others. Unfortunately, they can't follow their own instincts. Their orders come from higher up the chain. Their own thoughts are irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 28, 2020, 10:47:17 PM
Sorry Mrswah, but you can see she has immaculate nails.


I can see she had one immaculate nail!!!
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: Caroline on March 28, 2020, 11:00:01 PM

I can see she had one immaculate nail!!!

Can you see any non-immaculate nails?
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 29, 2020, 06:14:05 AM

No, I don't "seem to admire him".  It does seem, however, that you still find it difficult to reply to posts without slipping in personal remarks about other posters!

As for all the points you make, you may be correct that they all happened as you say, but many of them have been debated over and over, and not everyone agrees. For instance, if you read Scott Lomax's book, he says that Sheila did not have immaculate nails. Now, I don't know whether you are right or he is, but I'm saying it's been debated. Some people even disagree that the blood in the silencer was Sheila's.  Again, I don't know who is right, but I am saying that not everybody agrees with you. And, not everybody believes Julie's story,or that there was only one phone call.



If it was all so obvious, as you say, I would have expected the police to have "cottoned on" to the true situation long before they did. Police officers make mistakes, but in general, my common sense tells me that they know what they are doing.

It all happened so long ago now, and it's all been argued/debated for so many years, that I doubt it's even possible to know for sure what is true and what isn't.  For what it's worth, though, I don't believe JB is going to be winning any appeals .


I’m sure that you don’t admire him, MrsWah — it would be most odd to admire a convicted mass murderer who killed both his parents’, sister, and two little six-year-old nephews.  But to call that killer “clever”  and that he carried out the murders “perfectly” could be construed as you admiring him for that, despite him not actually being clever at all: if he was he’d never had been a suspect, let alone charged and convicted.

Scott Lomax’ book is poorly written, completely biased, and full of discrepancies and falsehoods. For example, it’s well-recorded by both police, photographers and pathologist that all Sheila’s fingernails were long, perfectly manicured, polished, had no breaks in any of them, nor even chipped polish. Lomax got a major fact wrong, which negates everything else he claimed. I’ve actually seen photos of Sheila’s hands and fingernails, and they are indeed perfect. I have the photos somewhere and will post them up to show you.

I don’t care who agrees with me or not: I’m of no consequence in this case. The people who were of consequence were the jurors and the judges in both the first hearing and the subsequent appeal hearings. They concluded that on the evidence they were given, Jeremy was — and is — guilty. A few people can say they don’t believe Sheila’s blood was in the silencer, but the fact is, at the appeal hearing when an updated DNA sample was taken of the blood in the silencer it was proved that the chances of it not being Sheila’s was a TRILLION to one. I’d say that’s proof it was Sheila’s blood, but if people want to refuse to believe it, let them. They don’t matter...

Likewise, it’s been proved by the police that only ONE phone call was made from JB, and there wasn’t one call from Nevill. The police have PROVEN that; but still some people refuse to accept it. To argue against a proven fact makes that person look unhinged, and even WITHOUT the proof the police gave that it was the SAME phone call being paraphrased, what are the odds that both Nevill and Jeremy would phone Chelmsford Police 20 miles away rather than 999? Are you saying these people think both J and N chose to look up the telephone number, wasting precious time in a dire emergency, rather than calling 999? And we haven’t even TOUCHED on the fact Nevill was unable to speak whilst in the kitchen...

If you’ve researched properly you’ll find that most of the police officers did indeed feel something was wrong about Sheila being the murderer, but DCI Jones who was leading the case, refused to listen to their concerns. He, and just he, was to blame for allowing the crime scene to be contaminated; for allowing crucial items to be burned; for not showing the pathologist crime scene photos during the post mortem. Dr Vanezis was extremely angry with him soon after,  once he saw the photos of Sheila in situ, and realised he’d been encouraged into saying she’d committed suicide when he was already uneasy about it. As soon as he saw the photos AND learned about the silencer he absolutely knew Sheila could not have killed herself. For one thing, the first shot would have incapacitated her: the photos prove that by her blood trails on her face.

When you put all the pieces together you can see that this dreadfully inept investigation was caused by none other than DCI Jones.

Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 29, 2020, 06:18:05 AM

I can see she had one immaculate nail!!!


I shall find the photos that show all her nails, MrsWah.

But don’t forget, the pathologist noted how they were all in perfect condition; long, manicured, polished and all unchipped and unbroken.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: mrswah on March 29, 2020, 10:15:32 AM

I shall find the photos that show all her nails, MrsWah.

But don’t forget, the pathologist noted how they were all in perfect condition; long, manicured, polished and all unchipped and unbroken.


Fair enough, and thank you.

As I previously mentioned, at the time of the TV series, I was on two Facebook groups discussing the case.  I'm certainly no expert, and I found it very interesting. I did leave eventually, though, because of the nastiness between supporters and "guilters", some from each side being to blame. It was my first encounter with "campaign team" people, by the way-----------hm!

I did get to "talk" with Scott Lomax though. I have recently re-read his book, along with Carol Ann Lee's and Colin's, to try to get some sort of balance. Now, I cannot say whether Scott Lomax is right or wrong, but what I will say, is that he came over to me as a pleasant person, who has done his research, and has taken the "innocent " stance.  He will, at least, discuss other viewpoints though, unlike some members of that group. He told me that it had been important for him to come down on one side or the other, which  is more than I'm able to do!

Interestingly, Scott told me that, while he used to help the campaign team, the people running it now do not wish to work with him, so he is no longer associated with it.
Title: Re: The Weapons kept at White House Farm
Post by: ISpyWithMyEye on March 30, 2020, 08:02:12 AM

Fair enough, and thank you.

As I previously mentioned, at the time of the TV series, I was on two Facebook groups discussing the case.  I'm certainly no expert, and I found it very interesting. I did leave eventually, though, because of the nastiness between supporters and "guilters", some from each side being to blame. It was my first encounter with "campaign team" people, by the way-----------hm!

I did get to "talk" with Scott Lomax though. I have recently re-read his book, along with Carol Ann Lee's and Colin's, to try to get some sort of balance. Now, I cannot say whether Scott Lomax is right or wrong, but what I will say, is that he came over to me as a pleasant person, who has done his research, and has taken the "innocent " stance.  He will, at least, discuss other viewpoints though, unlike some members of that group. He told me that it had been important for him to come down on one side or the other, which  is more than I'm able to do!

Interestingly, Scott told me that, while he used to help the campaign team, the people running it now do not wish to work with him, so he is no longer associated with it.




I haven’t had chance to find the photos yet as I wasn’t around, but I shall put them up as soon as I do, MrsWah

I haven't joined any of the JB Facebook groups, but I can imagine what they’re like...😌

I’m sure Scott Lomax was pleasant to you: he’d be foolish not to be. But being pleasant doesn’t mean you’re knowledgeable and this is his first book, which hasn’t sold well at all, despite him claiming otherwise. Some of his claims in the book are so ludicrous, such as him saying Sheila was alive when the police broke in to the farmhouse; they all spoke; then she ran upstairs and the police shot her.

That’s just one of his inane beliefs.

He also claims Nevill did phone the police and that it was recorded...

To put ridiculous like that in a book it’s no wonder people mock it, and possibly why the JB team (bonkers as they are) pushed him out. He’s done JB no favours whatsoever, and I wonder if subconsciously he deliberately wrote such nonsense to highlight JB’s obvious guilt.

By the way, the good reviews his book received where unrated people who’ve never bought from Amazon before, say that boring old cliche “so good I COULDN'T PUT IT DOWN” is always a given it’s been written by a mate 🤪