UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 10:15:19 AM

Title: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 10:15:19 AM
FUND

The main criticism that I see from reading various blogs and forums, is about the Find Madeleine Fund.  When a child goes missing, or whenever there is a tragedy in this world or a natural disaster people wish to donate.

The McCanns were well within their rights to just open a building society or bank account and release those banking details for people to pay into.

They did not.  Instead they decided to create a Company which would be bound by the rules set by Companies House.  One of those rules is that accounts have to be submitted yearly. 

The Find Madeleine Fund, is bound by the same accountancy rules and company laws, as say for instance, BP, Tescos or your local Double Glazing Company.

If the McCanns had decided to take the building society route of paying the donations into one account and not create a company, they would have been criticised if they didn't produce a balance sheet of income and expenditure.  Any fund conducted in this manner does not have to produce any accounts.  There are no laws governing donation based accounts and these types of accounts could be open to fraudulent activity.   Had the McCanns decided to take that option, providing they stated what the funds would be used for, which they did, they would have been perfectly entitled to use it for whatever purpose they deemed fit, providing it met the criteria of the fund.

When a child goes missing, people do want to help.  Maybe they can’t help in the search, but compassion and empathy play a role and people know this family are going to have to stay in another country as in the McCann case or they are not going to be able to work for a while.   

However what I do find astonishing, is the hypocritical way that people condemn the McCanns for doing the right thing, i.e. creating a company where the accounts have to be transparent and open to public scrutiny, whilst never bring into question funds that have been set up for other missing children, where the fund is not classed as a company.

In essence the McCanns by having the Fund as a Company are being more open and transparent than say a fund that is set up with just a sort code and account number or a paypal button for donations.

For instance the PJGA defence Fund, which I take is still in operation (as the donate button is still on the website), as far as I can recall has not given any figures, to what has been donated and what has been spent since Jan 2010.  That date being over 3 years ago, yet nobody questions the administrators of that fund, about what has been donated and what it has been spent on.
Quote
Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral – Conta de Solidariedade
Informação 18 de Janeiro de 2010

Em 18 de Janeiro de 2010, a Conta de Solidariedade contabiliza um saldo de EUR 5718,45.

Total de donativos via PayPal: EUR 2819,49
Total de donativos por débito directo/transferência bancária: EUR 4400,00
Total de donativos angariados em jantar de solidariedade (14Jan2010): EUR 500,00

Transferência bancária para o Dr. António Cabrita, advogado de Gonçalo Amaral: EUR 2000,00
Despesas bancárias: EUR 1,04

Os Cidadãos pela Defesa dos Direitos e Liberdades - Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral agradecem a todos quantos já contribuíram para esta iniciativa.

----"----

Project Justice Gonçalo Amaral – Solidarity Account
Information 18 January 2010

On the 18th of January, 2010, the Solidarity Account's balance is of EUR 5718,45.

PayPal donations, total: EUR 2819,49
Donations by direct debit/bank wire transfer, total: EUR 4400,00
Donations from fundraising dinner (14Jan2010): EUR 500,00

Bank transfer to Dr. António Cabrita, Gonçalo Amaral's lawyer: EUR 2000,00
Bank account expenses: EUR 1,04

The Citizens in Defence of Rights and Freedoms – Project Justice Gonçalo Amaral would like to thank everyone who has already contributed to this initiative.

The Madeleine Foundation again another organisation that charges membership, which again has never produced proper accounts to show what the money has been spent on and what has been donated.  We have seen figures in posts but never documentary evidence to back up those figures.

In both of those instances above, the PJGA and Foundation Fund, there is no law that states they need to produce accounts.  But with the Find Madeleine Fund they are duty bound by law to produce accounts.

Also we must not forget the new fund created by COLD who are offering assistance to Tony Bennett with regards to his Court costs, which again is run without the laws that govern a Company.

I can name at least two funds relating to the same disappearance of a missing child, that do not seem to be bound by Company Rules, yet these funds are never scrutinised or criticised.  I wonder why?  Could it be that the Find Madeleine Fund is purely being used as another stick to bash the parents of a missing child?

So please tell me, who is more open and transparent about where money is being spent and what it is going on? And it certainly isn’t the PJGA and Madeleine Foundation, or COLD for that matter, is it?

REVIEW

There are many saying the review is a waste of taxpayer's money.  I would like to ask those who criticise the review and the McCanns, the following
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2013, 10:19:02 AM
 8@??)(
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2013, 11:10:39 AM
FUND

The main criticism that I see from reading various blogs and forums, is about the Find Madeleine Fund.  When a child goes missing, or whenever there is a tragedy in this world or a natural disaster people wish to donate.

The McCanns were well within their rights to just open a building society or bank account and release those banking details for people to pay into.

They did not.  Instead they decided to create a Company which would be bound by the rules set by Companies House.  One of those rules is that accounts have to be submitted yearly. 

The Find Madeleine Fund, is bound by the same accountancy rules and company laws, as say for instance, BP, Tescos or your local Double Glazing Company.

If the McCanns had decided to take the building society route of paying the donations into one account and not create a company, they would have been criticised if they didn't produce a balance sheet of income and expenditure.  Any fund conducted in this manner does not have to produce any accounts.  There are no laws governing donation based accounts and these types of accounts could be open to fraudulent activity.   Had the McCanns decided to take that option, providing they stated what the funds would be used for, which they did, they would have been perfectly entitled to use it for whatever purpose they deemed fit, providing it met the criteria of the fund.

When a child goes missing, people do want to help.  Maybe they can’t help in the search, but compassion and empathy play a role and people know this family are going to have to stay in another country as in the McCann case or they are not going to be able to work for a while.   

However what I do find astonishing, is the hypocritical way that people condemn the McCanns for doing the right thing, i.e. creating a company where the accounts have to be transparent and open to public scrutiny, whilst never bring into question funds that have been set up for other missing children, where the fund is not classed as a company.

In essence the McCanns by having the Fund as a Company are being more open and transparent than say a fund that is set up with just a sort code and account number or a paypal button for donations.

For instance the PJGA defence Fund, which I take is still in operation (as the donate button is still on the website), as far as I can recall has not given any figures, to what has been donated and what has been spent since Jan 2010.  That date being over 3 years ago, yet nobody questions the administrators of that fund, about what has been donated and what it has been spent on.
Quote
Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral – Conta de Solidariedade
Informação 18 de Janeiro de 2010

Em 18 de Janeiro de 2010, a Conta de Solidariedade contabiliza um saldo de EUR 5718,45.

Total de donativos via PayPal: EUR 2819,49
Total de donativos por débito directo/transferência bancária: EUR 4400,00
Total de donativos angariados em jantar de solidariedade (14Jan2010): EUR 500,00

Transferência bancária para o Dr. António Cabrita, advogado de Gonçalo Amaral: EUR 2000,00
Despesas bancárias: EUR 1,04

Os Cidadãos pela Defesa dos Direitos e Liberdades - Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral agradecem a todos quantos já contribuíram para esta iniciativa.

----"----

Project Justice Gonçalo Amaral – Solidarity Account
Information 18 January 2010

On the 18th of January, 2010, the Solidarity Account's balance is of EUR 5718,45.

PayPal donations, total: EUR 2819,49
Donations by direct debit/bank wire transfer, total: EUR 4400,00
Donations from fundraising dinner (14Jan2010): EUR 500,00

Bank transfer to Dr. António Cabrita, Gonçalo Amaral's lawyer: EUR 2000,00
Bank account expenses: EUR 1,04

The Citizens in Defence of Rights and Freedoms – Project Justice Gonçalo Amaral would like to thank everyone who has already contributed to this initiative.

The Madeleine Foundation again another organisation that charges membership, which again has never produced proper accounts to show what the money has been spent on and what has been donated.  We have seen figures in posts but never documentary evidence to back up those figures.

In both of those instances above, the PJGA and Foundation Fund, there is no law that states they need to produce accounts.  But with the Find Madeleine Fund they are duty bound by law to produce accounts.

Also we must not forget the new fund created by COLD who are offering assistance to Tony Bennett with regards to his Court costs, which again is run without the laws that govern a Company.

I can name at least two funds relating to the same disappearance of a missing child, that do not seem to be bound by Company Rules, yet these funds are never scrutinised or criticised.  I wonder why?  Could it be that the Find Madeleine Fund is purely being used as another stick to bash the parents of a missing child?

So please tell me, who is more open and transparent about where money is being spent and what it is going on? And it certainly isn’t the PJGA and Madeleine Foundation, or COLD for that matter, is it?

REVIEW

There are many saying the review is a waste of taxpayer's money.  I would like to ask those who criticise the review and the McCanns, the following
  • If this was your child missing would you still think it a waste of taxpayers money?
  • If the parents were involved, as some people say, why would they campaign tirelessly for a review to be conducted?  Surely the last thing they would want is a review of the evidence, if they were guilty of committing a crime.

Welcome to the board, TTSOFAFM.

A very thoughtful post.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Mo Stache on May 31, 2013, 11:19:43 AM
Well said TTSOFAFM.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:24:58 AM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 11:38:37 AM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.
You have again given views on the Find Madeleine Fund, whilst completely ignoring the fact that I have highlighted 3 other funds connected to this case, which are not open and transparent.  Would you care to share your views about the lack of openness and transparency of those three funds? 

Surely those three Funds could have broadened their horizons and gained charity status.  Why didn't they bother doing that?  Could it be they wanted the funds solely to use on Goncalo Amaral and Tony Bennett's Court Fees?  You are being very hypocritical if you condemn the Find Madeleine Fund without condemning those other three funds.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Mo Stache on May 31, 2013, 11:47:54 AM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.
If you've read the aims of the fund you will see that once Madeleine is found, it is the funds aim to broaden their scope to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. But until then, does it not count for anything that Kate McCann is fund raising for Missing People and using her public profile to help an organisation like Missing People who intern helps many many missing people and their families? You accuse the McCann's of being ultruistic, but forget that the European Amber Alert initiative was made public by the McCann's for ALL missing people. Other families ARE benefiting from fund raising by the McCann's albeit not directly through the Find Madeleine Fund.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Dog The Bounty Hunter on May 31, 2013, 11:59:41 AM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.


Thinking outside the box here.      Are we to assume that when Madeleine is eventually found or maybe not that the fund will be transferred to the missing children organisation which Kate is currently associated with in England?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2013, 12:07:04 PM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.

If they could have seen into the future maybe they would have taken a different course.  However at the time donations were being made by members of the public for the express purpose of helping the McCanns and not other charities - and those wishes were rightly reflected in the way the Fund was set up.   They did not have the hindsight that you are now utilising six years later.

   
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Mrs. B on May 31, 2013, 02:30:21 PM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.


Thinking outside the box here.      Are we to assume that when Madeleine is eventually found or maybe not that the fund will be transferred to the missing children organisation which Kate is currently associated with in England?

Fund Objectives

The full objects of the Fund are:

To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;

To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice; and

To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.

If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.
[/b]

(3) Why is Madeleine's Fund not registered as a charity?

Because Madeleine's Fund is currently focussed on searching for one child only, Madeleine McCann it cannot register as a charity. However in the future, if the objects of the fund are fulfilled and subsequently changed to concentrate on multiple similar cases, it may then be possible to acquire charitable status.
[/b]

http://www.findmadeleine.com/about_us/madeleines-fund.html
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Eleanor on May 31, 2013, 06:23:53 PM

The Amy Fitzpatrick Case is being discussed on The Off Topic Forum.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 06:26:52 PM
FUND


However what I do find astonishing, is the hypocritical way that people condemn the McCanns for doing the right thing, i.e. creating a company where the accounts have to be transparent and open to public scrutiny, whilst never bring into question funds that have been set up for other missing children, where the fund is not classed as a company.

In essence the McCanns by having the Fund as a Company are being more open and transparent than say a fund that is set up with just a sort code and account number or a paypal button for donations.








You are making a false comparison

It is always possible to make something appear to be larger or smaller, better or worse, by comparing it to something else

You might as easily compare the McCann's limited company Fund to a legitimate registered charity, mightn't you ?

The picture would be very different if you did
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 06:43:52 PM

http://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/117460/missing-april-jones-fund-to-be-registered-as-a-charity.aspx


Missing April Jones' fund to be registered as a charity
Published date: 08 November 2012 | Published by: Barry Jones
Read more articles by Barry Jones

April's Fund now stands at £40,000 and will be registered as a charity
APRIL’S Fund, which now stands at around £40,000, is to be registered with the Charities Commission. 

The fund was set up as a result of money being handed in at Y Plas to support the search teams, volunteers, the community and the family of missing girl April Jones.

Town clerk Melanie Biffin said that following advice from the Charities Commission and HMRC, the fund needed to be registered.

“The fund will be put towards helping the search teams and volunteers, the local primary school and hopefully a lasting legacy for Machynlleth, as well as offering support to the family. The generosity of everyone involved has been astounding,” she said.

There will be six trustees – Dr Woodall from Machynlleth Health Centre, The Rev Kath Rogers from St Peter’s Church and Mrs Brunton, a respected local solicitor.

The other three trustees will be from the community and anyone wishing to put their name forward needs to send their details to Machynlleth Town Council at Y Plas.

Once the charity is established, Machynlleth Town Council will hand over the fund to the trustees to administer.

Anyone wishing to send a donation should use the address: MTC – April's Fund, Y Plas, Aberystwyth Road, Machynlleth, Powys, SY20 8ER.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2013, 06:48:38 PM

The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children.

April Jones is tragically dead, and the only way you can spend money on someone dead is to pay for their funeral.

Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 06:54:49 PM
The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children. Charitable status could have then been gained and the extra 25p claimed through gift aid by taxpayers would have more than covered the contribution to other causes without affecting the money needed for the search. Of course being a charity would mean greater transparency when publishing accounts than that of a limited company but being able to benefit other families in the same situation as themselves would surely have been an ultruistic  gesture by the McCanns.

If they could have seen into the future maybe they would have taken a different course.  However at the time donations were being made by members of the public for the express purpose of helping the McCanns and not other charities - and those wishes were rightly reflected in the way the Fund was set up.   They did not have the hindsight that you are now utilising six years later.

 

The same could be said for the donations to the April Jones and Daniel Morecombe funds,, both funds set up due to the willingness of the public to help in those family's time of need and both being used, while the children were still missing, to fulfil wider aims in connection with children.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 06:55:35 PM

The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children.

April Jones is tragically dead, and the only way you can spend money on someone dead is to pay for their funeral.

Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

And Daniel Morecombe ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Eleanor on May 31, 2013, 06:56:23 PM

The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children.

April Jones is tragically dead, and the only way you can spend money on someone dead is to pay for their funeral.

Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

Exactly.  April is dead.  Madeleine isn't, as far as I am concerned.  And the remit of The April Jones Fund was only changed after it was established that she was dead.
Just more twisting and spinning to beat The McCanns.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2013, 07:00:30 PM

The McCanns could have, as the April Jones fund did and as the Charity Commission suggested, broadened the aims of the fund to include initiatives that would benefit other missing children.

April Jones is tragically dead, and the only way you can spend money on someone dead is to pay for their funeral.

Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

And Daniel Morecombe ?

The Morcombe family started the "Daniel Morcombe Foundation", and has put its resources into keeping Morcombe's disappearance in the public eye and trying to find out what happened to their son. The foundation is committed to educating children about personal safety and to raising awareness throughout Australia of the dangers of predatory criminals. These efforts are supported by the Australian media, especially on each anniversary of Morcombe's disappearance when a "Day for Daniel" is held to promote awareness of the vulnerability of children. An accompanying event is the "Ride for Daniel", which covers 50 km of the Sunshine Coast, held each year since 2005.[17]
Morcombe's murder was the focus of the Crime Investigation Australia Season 1 episode "Tears for Daniel".[18]
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 07:52:10 PM
Generally speaking, the Madeleine Fund is not critisised with regard to comparison with other funds, but, rather,  with regard to it's lack of transparancy

By choosing to make the Fund a limited company,  and thereafter choosing to present abbreviated  accounts,  the McCanns have kept the details of the Fund's spending secret

No-one knows, for instance,  how much of the Fund has been spent on lawyers

In the early days, shortly after the McCanns had been made Arguidos,  the  Board of Directors decided that paying the McCann's legal fees would not be in the spirit of the Fund ...  whilst, at the same time, pointing out that it would be entirely legal for the Fund to be used in that way should they have so decided

That was then.  The McCanns are no longer Arguidos, and the board of directors has changed significantly  (  both Kate and Gerry having since replaced two  directors who resigned )  So it is quite concievable that the McCann's legal costs  are,  now,  being paid from the Fund

I assume  Isabel Duarte has not been working for the McCanns for nothing,  yet it is not known whether her fees are being paid from the Fund or not

That is just one example of the Fund's  lack of transparent accountability, and it is what leaves it open to critisism
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Eleanor on May 31, 2013, 08:05:51 PM

It isn't anyone else's business. The Inland Revenue don't seem bothered.  If you don't like it, don't donate.  There is nothing fraudulent going on.  End of.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Angelo222 on May 31, 2013, 08:10:16 PM
Generally speaking, the Madeleine Fund is not critisised with regard to comparison with other funds, but, rather,  with regard to it's lack of transparancy

By choosing to make the Fund a limited company,  and thereafter choosing to present abbreviated  accounts,  the McCanns have kept the details of the Fund's spending secret

No-one knows, for instance,  how much of the Fund has been spent on lawyers

In the early days, shortly after the McCanns had been made Arguidos,  the  Board of Directors decided that paying the McCann's legal fees would not be in the spirit of the Fund ...  whilst, at the same time, pointing out that it would be entirely legal for the Fund to be used in that way should they have so decided

That was then.  The McCanns are no longer Arguidos, and the board of directors has changed significantly  (  both Kate and Gerry having since replaced two  directors who resigned )  So it is quite concievable that the McCann's legal costs  are,  now,  being paid from the Fund

I assume  Isabel Duarte has not been working for the McCanns for nothing,  yet it is not known whether her fees are being paid from the Fund or not

That is just one example of the Fund's  lack of transparent accountability, and it is what leaves it open to critisism


Or to put it another way Ica, according to one former protagonist dictionary quoter...it ain't any of our effing business.   @)(++(* 8@??)(
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on May 31, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
In the early days, shortly after the McCanns had been made Arguidos,  the  Board of Directors decided that paying the McCann's legal fees would not be in the spirit of the Fund ...  whilst, at the same time, pointing out that it would be entirely legal for the Fund to be used in that way should they have so decided

That was then.  The McCanns are no longer Arguidos, and the board of directors has changed significantly  (  both Kate and Gerry having since replaced two  directors who resigned )  So it is quite concievable that the McCann's legal costs  are,  now,  being paid from the Fund

I assume  Isabel Duarte has not been working for the McCanns for nothing,  yet it is not known whether her fees are being paid from the Fund or not

That is just one example of the Fund's  lack of transparent accountability, and it is what leaves it open to critisism

****
Icab
In this case it is a fact that legal representation was paid for out of the Fund, two years running,just the amount not disclosed
ETA Some argue the near million pounds  plus that was said to be put into the Fund from the Express paper payouts to the Mccanns and their friends and other sums received from a couple of papers as apologies, would be *their own* to do as they saw fit with as it was not the publics donations

See from around 5.50 here

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2013, 08:19:10 PM
The "choice" was a Hobson's choice (ie, no choice at all)

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on May 31, 2013, 09:20:41 PM
From the objectives


To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice.......


Does this mean little over a week after the abduction this fund objective meant  to buy the services of private investigators?

I do remember John Mccanns press conference on the  BBC launchng the Fund around 17 May 07 where he mentioned that in the event the police investigation failed they would hire PIS but it wasnt an immediate objective

And Gerry Mccann in kate May in interviews said they were not thinking about PIs at all, which makes me wonder how that Fund objective was put in so early when Madeleine could have turned up tomorrow
 >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 09:43:04 PM
Thankfully the McCanns have been fully open about the objectives of their daughter's fund.

Can the same be said of the various funds set up by Tony Bennett and for Tony Bennett?

Can the same be said of the fund set up for Amaral?

Can the same be said for the fund set up by Audrey Fitzpatrick and Dave Mahon?

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 09:54:30 PM
Thankfully the McCanns have been fully open about the objectives of their daughter's fund.

Can the same be said of the various funds set up by Tony Bennett and for Tony Bennett?

Can the same be said of the fund set up for Amaral?

Can the same be said for the fund set up by Audrey Fitzpatrick and Dave Mahon?

Rather than continue the op's false comparisons, why don't you address the criticism levelled at the Madeleine Fund itself  ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on May 31, 2013, 09:57:49 PM
Thankfully the McCanns have been fully open about the objectives of their daughter's fund.

Can the same be said of the various funds set up by Tony Bennett and for Tony Bennett?

Can the same be said of the fund set up for Amaral?

Can the same be said for the fund set up by Audrey Fitzpatrick and Dave Mahon?

Whats that to do with my post qnd question that you quoted, nothing at all
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on May 31, 2013, 10:05:35 PM


Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

That is scraping some barrell I must say,besides it is known Ms O Dowd has been very critical and questioning over the Mccann case before, she wrote a scathing article on KMs book in some Irish magazine, there is a link to it atthe bottom of the Accounts write up on the mccannfiles.com

I doubt very much indeed, that Nigel Moore wrote it and put her name on it ! as possible as tonights asteroid colliding with the earth.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 10:08:26 PM
Whats that to do with my post qnd question that you quoted, nothing at all

It has everything to do with the rampant hypocrisy in your postings.

As for the content of your post.

Do you not actually understand the pressure that the family was under in those first two weeks after the little girl had gone missing?

Do you not understand that people like John McCann were not in any way used to being interviewed on live television?

Do you not understand that they would have said anything and done anything to get little Madeleine back?

Are you utterly without empathy?

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 10:10:23 PM


Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

That is scraping some barrell I must say,besides it is known Ms O Dowd has been very critical and questioning over the Mccann case before, she wrote a scathing article on KMs book in some Irish magazine, there is a link to it atthe bottom of the Accounts write up on the mccannfiles.com

I doubt very much indeed, that Nigel Moore wrote it and put her name on it ! as possible as tonights asteroid colliding with the earth.

Exactly, you have just made the point that Mrs. O'Dowd, who Bennett stupidly brought all the way to the High Court to unleash on Judge Tugendhat before he was told not to be so stupid, was not the independent and unbiased expert that she was touted as.

She had already proclaimed her views and was wholly biased against the McCanns.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 10:12:58 PM


Has the point been firmly established that Moore didn't take the name of a chartered accountant in vain to lend spurious "credibility" to his own, poisonous, ramblings?

That is scraping some barrell I must say,besides it is known Ms O Dowd has been very critical and questioning over the Mccann case before, she wrote a scathing article on KMs book in some Irish magazine, there is a link to it atthe bottom of the Accounts write up on the mccannfiles.com

I doubt very much indeed, that Nigel Moore wrote it and put her name on it ! as possible as tonights asteroid colliding with the earth.

Didn't Miss O'Dowd attend the High Court in support of Bennett or was that also Nigel Moore in a dress ? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on May 31, 2013, 10:20:04 PM

Exactly, you have just made the point that Mrs. O'Dowd, who Bennett stupidly brought all the way to the High Court to unleash on Judge Tugendhat before he was told not to be so stupid, was not the independent and unbiased expert that she was touted as.

She had already proclaimed her views and was wholly biased against the McCanns.

Whats that to do with Ferryman suggesting Nigel Moore wrote the article and just stamped her name on it? Cos he is a posionous little so and so? LOL,gilet, try some peptobismol and try and answer points instead of making different ones
 8((()*/

PS I have no idea who was at said TB trial and not interested either

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 10:25:40 PM
Miss O'Dowd only attended the court because Tony Bennett was too stupid to realise that the case he was defending was about his own illegal actions and nothing to do with the McCann's actions.

Had Bennett had any relevant knowledge of law then she might have been spared a completely wasted journey.

He was the moron who invited her when she served no purpose.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 10:33:17 PM
Having seen the plodding work of the PJ who were not even searching for a missing child on their patch in full daylight at 6am on the morning after her disappearance, having seen them clodhop around without proper idenitkit software I would be flabbergasted if the parents of a missing child were not considering every single option that could possibly be used in the search for their daughter.

It astounds me that you are so obsessed in your complete hatred of this couple that you cannot appreciate or empathise in any way whatsoever with the kind of though processes that may have led to their statements and actions.

As I said before the answer to your question lies in the fact that you have a complete absence of empathetic emotion. You seem to be driven only by a need to hate the McCanns. Your very continuing with this question shows that my comment is not personal but aimed pointedly at the content of your post.

I am simply appalled that anyone can make such posts which show no understanding of the emotional upheaval involved in the disappearance of a child.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 10:50:07 PM
Setting aside your ad hominem attack on Redblossom,  I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

That same day ...  just 8 days after Madeleine disappeared ...  she met lawyers, who had already been contacted and had travelled to Portugal,  to discuss setting up the Fund

What is astonishing is that you do not understand why such haste raises questions
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Icabod.  This is not like you.

You have got that ad hominen attack the wrong way round.

Red, as usual, attacking other people when she loses arguments.  Always the same.   


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:03:23 PM
What is actually astounding is that you and Redblossom cannot understand the need for haste.

What is amazing is that you cannot recognise that people who had already seen a week of PJ inactivity and plodding would be doing everything in their power to bring in others who might be able to help find their child.

Oh and if you had bothered to look, I made it abundantly clear that I was making no ad hominem attack but was focusing entirely on the content of the post and what that content revealed.

When the content of a post identifies a complete lack of empathy then it is fair and reasonable to state that fact.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:08:27 PM
Icabod.  This is not like you.

You have got that ad hominen attack the wrong way round.

Red, as usual, attacking other people when she loses arguments.  Always the same.   


Have you had a sherry and a glass of wine Red.  Just one?

Sadie perhaps it old be better if you stayed out of other people's disagreement ? You are dangerously close to behaving like one of those bullies you so rightly deplore.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 11:09:14 PM
What is actually astounding is that you and Redblossom cannot understand the need for haste.

What is amazing is that you cannot recognise that people who had already seen a week of PJ inactivity and plodding would be doing everything in their power to bring in others who might be able to help find their child.

Control Risks  ( and their ex intelligence personel ) were already there at that point  ...  sent unannounced by a wealthy anonymous backer according to Kate

Yes, the haste with which they dismissed the Portuguese 'Plod'   (  within days,  during which time they claim to have been on  'automatic pilot )  and bringing in  outside  'paid'  help  is  astonishing
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:11:46 PM

And of course the 'action' the McCanns took has lead to what ? Certainly not Madeleine. Perhaps they should have listened to the PJ in the first place.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:12:34 PM
Astonishing to you who is showing no real emotional empathy with the parents of a missing child.

To those who recognise that emotionally, people are likely to be in pieces, at such a time and grasping at every straw that is within reach it is totally natural that they would be taking any offers of help and seeking any potential help.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:13:45 PM
And of course the 'action' the McCanns took has lead to what ? Certainly not Madeleine. Perhaps they should have listened to the PJ in the first place.

Do please explain how you think that the actions the McCanns took in any way damaged the "search" for Madeleine that the PJ were conducting. Remember this is a PJ which Amaral himself described as having little experience in such missing child cases.

Personally I think that the more people searching the better. Clearly you don't.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: registrar on May 31, 2013, 11:15:05 PM
two days into the search - hands in pockets

and Murat right amongst them

(http://truthformadeleine.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/1277_NpAdvHover.jpg)

a picture says more than a thousand words
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 11:19:44 PM
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out. 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 11:23:22 PM
Just as well they had already arranged for lawyers to be arriving the next day then eh ?  ...  and a real stroke of  luck that a wealthy anonymous backer had arranged for ex intelligence officers to be there alongside them
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:27:35 PM

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:28:09 PM
So the PJ allow the interview to be postponed but can't get off their ar..s to do another interview at all?

No damm wonder the McCanns wanted others to get involved and do some real searching for their daughter.

Yet another example of the complete cock up that they were witnessing from the PJ.

And there are posters here who simply refuse to see or are so lacking in empathetic emotional ability to understand the desperation of parents faced with such useless police activity.

Astounding.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 11:28:58 PM
Again you are incorrect.  The law group that flew out to the McCanns flew out on the afternoon of the 11th May 2007.  And the reason they became involved is because of a colleague of Gerry's.

Quote
One of the offers of help we’d received came from a paralegal based in Leicester, via a colleague of Gerry’s. He worked for a firm specializing in family law, the International Family Law Group (IFLG). It was difficult to know what this company could do but we decided it would be worth meeting them to discuss the possibilities. So on the afternoon of Friday 11 May, the paralegal, accompanied by a barrister, flew out to Portugal.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (p. 124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.
When you know someone in a situation as the McCanns were, you do tend to find that colleagues, friends and family pull out all stops to get you the help you need.  Nothing untoward about that at all. 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:29:13 PM

Unfortunately Gilet you tend to be treated the way you treat others. Unfortunate truth but there it is.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:31:24 PM
So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 11:32:57 PM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 31, 2013, 11:33:32 PM


Astonishing to you who is showing no real emotional empathy with the parents of a missing child.

To those who recognise that emotionally, people are likely to be in pieces, at such a time and grasping at every straw that is within reach it is totally natural that they would be taking any offers of help and seeking any potential help.
Gilet, does empathy help you to understand Tweedledum and Tweedledee ? I hope so.
Try empathy concerning Redblossom... One never knows.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:39:01 PM
And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:42:04 PM
Yes empathy does help me understand Tweedledum and Tweedledee. When I have seen people bumbling around I have thought of them in exactly the same terms.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee is a very good literary reference to bumbling idiots who say they are doing something but never get it done.

I get the distinct impression from reports by the McCanns, various journalists and various UK Policing professionals who were in PDL in the early stages of the investigation that this is precisely how the PJ were acting.

What kind of empathy am I to show with someone who appears to totally lack any such emotional maturity?  If people cannot understand and empathise with the desperation a parent might feel when a child is missing then that is their problem not mine.


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2013, 11:42:27 PM
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.


Excellent post TT.  Alan Pike was a very experienced trauma counsellor, who amongst others had helped some of the families of the Hillsborough victims.    He spent a great deal of time with the McCanns.   One would think with his vast experience that he of all people would have noticed anything untoward about the behaviour of the McCanns and yet he recognised it as perfectly typical of victims of trauma.      The stress must have been enormous and added to that  - the long hours spent at the police station were totally unacceptable IMO.

The sceptics seem unable to accept the effect that such massive trauma and stress has on human beings - and expect the McCanns to have been completely unaffected by what had happened.  imo.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:45:04 PM
What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.
[/quote]

Among others, yes.

All builds up a picture, which was available in images as well on video and in photo form.

There are the "forensic" people who didn't even wear forensic protective gear. Even Grime who should have known better was utterly casual in this respect when working with the PJ.

There are reports of the borders not being closed, searches not being co-ordinated properly by the police.

Trying to pretend that the PJ did a wonderful job is insane. They did not.







EDITED TO STATE
For some reason Admin seems to have been editing lots of posts.
In this case I would like to point out that it is Admin and not me who has made a pigs ear of the quotes.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 31, 2013, 11:47:11 PM

And of course the 'action' the McCanns took has lead to what ? Certainly not Madeleine. Perhaps they should have listened to the PJ in the first place.
I see a positive point. Control Risks didn't find Madeleine likely for the same reasons the PJ didn't find her as well. One can't blame the second and excuse the first. Both were professionals.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:48:30 PM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:50:20 PM
Excellent post TT.  Alan Pike was a very experienced trauma counsellor, who amongst others had helped some of the families of the Hillsborough victims.    He spent a great deal of time with the McCanns.   One would think with his vast experience that he of all people would have noticed anything untoward about the behaviour of the McCanns and yet he recognised it as perfectly typical of victims of trauma.      The stress must have been enormous and added to that  - the long hours spent at the police station were totally unacceptable IMO.

The sceptics seem unable to accept the effect that such massive trauma and stress has on human beings - and expect the McCanns to have been completely unaffected by what had happened.  imo.


 

Exactly. They are looking at the actions of the McCanns as if nothing of any importance had happened at all. As if they were in a completely normal situation and thinking rationally.  Sheer panic, desperation and fear what might be happening to the missing child is being ignored. 

This complete lack of empathy is indicative of people who don't believe there was any need to panic, who have already made up their minds that the McCanns were lying and fully cogniscent of the fate of their daughter. It makes little sense otherwise, because surely no adult can be so ignorant as to fail to realise that when a child is missing panic and fear and desperation are what drive you forward?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 31, 2013, 11:54:25 PM


The sceptics seem unable to accept the effect that such massive trauma and stress has on human beings - and expect the McCanns to have been completely unaffected by what had happened.  imo.

We're individuals, not substitutable beings like in communist regime. So please consider putting an end to this ludicrous Manichaean bipartition of the humanity into sceptics and... not sceptics.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:55:02 PM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?

But there is a very, very big difference between Kate's refusal and Amaral's determination to go ahead with his book.

The former was an action done openly with total disregard for the fact that he was potentially damaging the search. It was deliberate and selfish to satisfy his honour and his bank manager.

With regard to Kate being warned that her refusal to answer the questions could damage the search then the situation is different. Being fully aware that she was not responsible for the disappearance of her child she would have known (unlike the police officer who was warning/threatening her) that her action in refusing to answer questions was not damaging the case as they were irrelevant questions which did not relate to an abductor but to herself.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 11:55:32 PM
Ex-cops highly critical of the PJ include-
Mike Hames - ex SY Commander who set up the paedophilia unit
Dai Davies ex-cop and head of security at Royal Palaces
Desmond Thomas ex head of CID Hampshire police

and others.

Lots of people are critical of the Portugueses investigation  (  me included ) 

This thread,  though,  is concerned with the Madeleine Fund,  and critisism of it

We reached the point where the haste with which the Fund was set up,  and it's stated objectives from so very early on  (  little more than a week after Madeleine disappeared )  were being debated

Let's not get distracted
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2013, 11:57:58 PM

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

It wasn't her claim or her opinion  - she was quoting the opinion of someone else who was experienced re sniffer dogs.   Lying doesn't come into it. 

 
   


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 11:58:58 PM
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.

Among others, yes.

All builds up a picture, which was available in images as well on video and in photo form.

There are the "forensic" people who didn't even wear forensic protective gear. Even Grime who should have known better was utterly casual in this respect when working with the PJ.

There are reports of the borders not being closed, searches not being co-ordinated properly by the police.

Trying to pretend that the PJ did a wonderful job is insane. They did not.

Reports ? From where ? The tabloid press ?

The PJ made mistakes as every police force carrying out a major inquiry do but that doesn't make the great majority of the work done worthless. Madeleine, due to a lack of proper checking, if abducted, had been missing for almost an hour before the alarm was raised. That most precious measure of time, golden hour, was lost before the GNR or PJ had even heard Madeleine's name and whose fault was that  ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: registrar on May 31, 2013, 11:59:05 PM
two days into the search - hands in pockets

and Murat right amongst them

(http://truthformadeleine.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/1277_NpAdvHover.jpg)

a picture says more than a thousand words


Icar - this picture irks you a tad - does it not?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 11:59:40 PM


The sceptics seem unable to accept the effect that such massive trauma and stress has on human beings - and expect the McCanns to have been completely unaffected by what had happened.  imo.

We're individuals, not substitutable beings like in communist regime. So please consider putting an end to this ludicrous Manichaean bipartition of the humanity into sceptics and... not sceptics.

There is nothing in Benice's post which relates to good or evil. Your pompous use of the term Manichaean is utterly superfluous.

Are you really suggesting that these people who are unable to show the slightest empathy towards the fear, panic and desperation that a parent of a missing child would feel are not McCann sceptics?

It is farcical to try to pretend that this inability to empathise with the McCanns does not stem from a deep seated belief that they are guilty of harming their child.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:01:49 AM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?

But there is a very, very big difference between Kate's refusal and Amaral's determination to go ahead with his book.

The former was an action done openly with total disregard for the fact that he was potentially damaging the search. It was deliberate and selfish to satisfy his honour and his bank manager.

With regard to Kate being warned that her refusal to answer the questions could damage the search then the situation is different. Being fully aware that she was not responsible for the disappearance of her child she would have known (unlike the police officer who was warning/threatening her) that her action in refusing to answer questions was not damaging the case as they were irrelevant questions which did not relate to an abductor but to herself.

You keep telling yourself that Gilet. Your support of the McCanns will still be strong but your betrayal of Madeleine will be immeasurable.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:02:53 AM

There are reports of the borders not being closed
Which borders, if you please ? Schengen ones ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:04:03 AM
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.

Among others, yes.

All builds up a picture, which was available in images as well on video and in photo form.

There are the "forensic" people who didn't even wear forensic protective gear. Even Grime who should have known better was utterly casual in this respect when working with the PJ.

There are reports of the borders not being closed, searches not being co-ordinated properly by the police.

Trying to pretend that the PJ did a wonderful job is insane. They did not.

Reports ? From where ? The tabloid press ?

The PJ made mistakes as every police force carrying out a major inquiry do but that doesn't make the great majority of the work done worthless. Madeleine, due to a lack of proper checking, if abducted, had been missing for almost an hour before the alarm was raised. That most precious measure of time, golden hour, was lost before the GNR or PJ had even heard Madeleine's name and whose fault was that  ?

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Thanks though, for admitting that the PJ were making mistakes.

It is precisely because of those mistakes that the parents would have wanted to involve anyone who might be able to help.

It is the fact that certain posters here cannot understand and accept that the fear and desperation on the part of the parents of the missing child at the heart of the case on seeing those mistakes by the police that you refer to which makes their posts rather bizarre.

Everyone can see the mistakes. Every person with an ounce of empathy can understand what such mistakes would do to a traumatised parent.

Certain posters here seem utterly blind to that reality.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:04:58 AM
Ex-cops highly critical of the PJ include-
Mike Hames - ex SY Commander who set up the paedophilia unit
Dai Davies ex-cop and head of security at Royal Palaces
Desmond Thomas ex head of CID Hampshire police

and others.

Thank you.

I knew there were many, many instances of real experts whose views of the PJ in action led them to report that they were appalled.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 12:05:58 AM
And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.

What part did John Stalker play in the case.  Did he ever meet the McCanns or interview them?  If not his opinion is no more relevant than anyone else who was not part of the investigation.




Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:07:23 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.  Some people in this world have no hesitation in cashing in on another person's tragic circumstances in order to make money.

If I remember rightly a certain blogger, bought and sold websites as a profit, with regards to this case.

In the tragic death of Amy Winehouse a man on hearing about the Amy Winehouse Foundation, bought the doman and even registered a company.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3767972/Rat-hijacked-Amy-Winehouse-site.html#comment-rig

Some people want to help, others want to cash in.  The parents of Madeleine McCann would have been advised about all of this and they did what they did in order to protect the official fund they were setting up.

And as for the comment the Official Fund can't be compared with those three funds I quoted, please tell me why not?  Why can't those funds be questioned?  Surely not to question a fund that is less transparent than the Official Find Madeleine Fund, does speak volumes to me.  It makes me think that others can do what they want as long as they are anti-McCann.  Whilst those that support the family and support the Official Fund should come under scrutiny and be questioned about their motives.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:07:43 AM
Ex-cops highly critical of the PJ include-
Mike Hames - ex SY Commander who set up the paedophilia unit
Dai Davies ex-cop and head of security at Royal Palaces
Desmond Thomas ex head of CID Hampshire police

and others.

Lots of people are critical of the Portugueses investigation  (  me included ) 

This thread,  though,  is concerned with the Madeleine Fund,  and critisism of it

We reached the point where the haste with which the Fund was set up,  and it's stated objectives from so very early on  (  little more than a week after Madeleine disappeared )  were being debated

Let's not get distracted

Exactly.

The incompetence of the PJ in the very first few hours and days of the case was probably a very, very significant factor in determining that the McCanns would seek and accept offers of help from whereever they might emerge and the fact that people were immediately donating money without being asked also meant that the putting of the fund on a proper basis was essential.

More recent cases have shown that money starts to pour in literally hours after such events.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:10:53 AM

There is nothing in Benice's post which relates to good or evil. Your pompous use of the term Manichaean is utterly superfluous.

Are you really suggesting that these people who are unable to show the slightest empathy towards the fear, panic and desperation that a parent of a missing child would feel are not McCann sceptics?

It is farcical to try to pretend that this inability to empathise with the McCanns does not stem from a deep seated belief that they are guilty of harming their child.
"Pompous" such a common word and moreover such a terribly vulgar mental perception ? Are you suggesting you position yourself above good and evil ?
What are you doing with your imagination capacity, Gilet ? No imagination, no empathy...
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:11:30 AM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?

But there is a very, very big difference between Kate's refusal and Amaral's determination to go ahead with his book.

The former was an action done openly with total disregard for the fact that he was potentially damaging the search. It was deliberate and selfish to satisfy his honour and his bank manager.

With regard to Kate being warned that her refusal to answer the questions could damage the search then the situation is different. Being fully aware that she was not responsible for the disappearance of her child she would have known (unlike the police officer who was warning/threatening her) that her action in refusing to answer questions was not damaging the case as they were irrelevant questions which did not relate to an abductor but to herself.

You keep telling yourself that Gilet. Your support of the McCanns will still be strong but your betrayal of Madeleine will be immeasurable.

I find that remark extremely offensive.

If you cannot see the difference then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.

But you have no right whatsoever to act so pompously as to accuse me of betraying Madeleine McCann whilst you endorse the posts which show no empathy whatsoever with her or her family.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:12:37 AM
Ex-cops highly critical of the PJ include-
Mike Hames - ex SY Commander who set up the paedophilia unit
Dai Davies ex-cop and head of security at Royal Palaces
Desmond Thomas ex head of CID Hampshire police

and others.

Thank you.

I knew there were many, many instances of real experts whose views of the PJ in action led them to report that they were appalled.

Yes. I know there are others but that was what I uncovered with a cursory google. However, we must not discuss this further as it is apparently "off-topic".

Sorry it is entirely and 100% ON-TOPIC as it is one of the fundamental reasons why the fund was necessary.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:12:42 AM
I would point out that Kate McCann cancelled what would have been only her second interview with police on the 11th of May on the grounds of her 'wellbeing' 

Actually it was Alan Pike who asked for Kate's interview to be postponed for a few days.  She had sat in the waiting room for 8 hours waiting to be interviewed.  She was then told to go home and come back the next day.  Finally when Gerry returned he told her of what had happened during Mat Oldfield's interview.

Quote
I sat in the waiting area for eight hours before I was told that it was now too late for me to be interviewed and I should go home and come back the next day. Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars. Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days. The PJ couldn’t have considered it all that important: it was 6 September before I was interviewed again.

McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (pp. 123-124). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.

And you wonder why trust broke down between the Tapas members and the Police.  I always thought the reason for people being made arguidos was so that the police could ask suspects questions that could incriminate them.  Trying to get someone to confess to passing a child through a window is pretty incriminating to me.

After sitting there for 8 hours, then hearing that, it is enough to stress any person out.

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.

And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.

Among others, yes.

All builds up a picture, which was available in images as well on video and in photo form.

There are the "forensic" people who didn't even wear forensic protective gear. Even Grime who should have known better was utterly casual in this respect when working with the PJ.

There are reports of the borders not being closed, searches not being co-ordinated properly by the police.

Trying to pretend that the PJ did a wonderful job is insane. They did not.

Reports ? From where ? The tabloid press ?

The PJ made mistakes as every police force carrying out a major inquiry do but that doesn't make the great majority of the work done worthless. Madeleine, due to a lack of proper checking, if abducted, had been missing for almost an hour before the alarm was raised. That most precious measure of time, golden hour, was lost before the GNR or PJ had even heard Madeleine's name and whose fault was that  ?

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Thanks though, for admitting that the PJ were making mistakes.

It is precisely because of those mistakes that the parents would have wanted to involve anyone who might be able to help.

It is the fact that certain posters here cannot understand and accept that the fear and desperation on the part of the parents of the missing child at the heart of the case on seeing those mistakes by the police that you refer to which makes their posts rather bizarre.

Everyone can see the mistakes. Every person with an ounce of empathy can understand what such mistakes would do to a traumatised parent.

Certain posters here seem utterly blind to that reality.

Rebelo was reported to have been appalled in a tabloid article, an article with many other mistakes. Shall I post it for you ?

Rebelo seems to have been so appalled by Amaral's handling of the case that he kept on the same track after taking over. The reconstruction he wished to carry out is testament to the lack of trust he placed on the veracity of the McCanns and their friend's testimony.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:13:30 AM

There are reports of the borders not being closed
Which borders, if you please ? Schengen ones ?

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:19:44 AM

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Have you got a link about Inspector Rebelo, who belongs to the PJ btw, being appalled by the state of the case ? Do you know if he answered Mrs McCann's letter ?
Have you any information from the LC officers who directly witnessed the work of the PJ as they were using the same installations in Portimão ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:20:18 AM

There is nothing in Benice's post which relates to good or evil. Your pompous use of the term Manichaean is utterly superfluous.

Are you really suggesting that these people who are unable to show the slightest empathy towards the fear, panic and desperation that a parent of a missing child would feel are not McCann sceptics?

It is farcical to try to pretend that this inability to empathise with the McCanns does not stem from a deep seated belief that they are guilty of harming their child.
"Pompous" such a common word and moreover such a terribly vulgar mental perception ? Are you suggesting you position yourself above good and evil ?
What are you doing with your imagination capacity, Gilet ? No imagination, no empathy...

The word "pompous" was used quite deliberately because that is how I wished to describe your ridiculous use of the term "Manichaean", a term which bore no relevance whatsoever to the post that Benice made.

There is nothing in my post which suggests I position myself above good and evil. A careful reading would permit you to realise that.

You made the presumption that there was a relationship between good and evil and the use of the term Sceptic by Benice. There was AS I STATED nothing in her post which suggested that. Therefore your use of the word "Manichaean" was not just pompous (pretending to cleverness in this case) but also completely wrong.

As for empathy, it does not equate to imagination though there is a connection but it is me who is actually demonstrating empathy to the parents in their traumatic situation. I am not however empathetic towards people who show no empathy like Redblossom. .

Why should I be?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:20:56 AM
And the actual evidence is that there is no record of any further interview being done till September. But don't let that fact spoil your little dig will you.

The PJ were making a complete pigs ear of the case and the McCanns who were at the heart of it recognised that. UK journalists and former police who were in PDL also recognised the same facts about the incompetent PJ search and yet you cannot understand that the parents of a child who were witnessing this incompetence would want to do EVERYTHING including using others to help. Shame on you.

What former police ? John Stalker who thought the McCanns and their friends were hiding something or perhaps MWT who's media company had close ties with the McCanns ? As for journalists, that'd swear black was white if it made for good copy.
Thank you Faithlily for reminding me of the John Stalker article in the Express.  I remember the one now.  The one where he was highly critical of the PJ and where he said Madeleine had been abducted and that the McCanns were not responsible.

Quote
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing.  I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever.  To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing.  Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order.  They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.


Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine.  That should be the aim of all concerned.

But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:21:08 AM
@ gilet

My heart is full of empathy for a poor child whose safety was disregarded for a good steak and a few glasses of wine. I only hope her suffering was short.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:24:15 AM
@ gilet

My heart is full of empathy for a poor child whose safety was disregarded for a good steak and a few glasses of wine. I only hope her suffering was short.

You have in that post demonstrated smugness rather than empathy. You have also demostrated a total lack of hope even though there is not a shred of evidence that the poor girl is dead.

Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 12:24:53 AM

So your proof is several self-serving passages from Kate's own book and of course she has never written a lie, has she ?

M'lud exhibit one for the prosecution, a passage from Madeleine by Kate McCann claiming cadaver scent lasts for no more than 30 days.
Have I quoted about the dogs?  No. so your comment is meaningless.  By the way, Kate McCann's book has been on sale in Portugal for a good couple of years now.  It has not been banned, there are no legal writs imposed on the book or Kate McCann so I take it that what she has written is the truth and not libellous, unlike someone's book.  You know the one, I am referring to, the book where the author pens in the forward that by releasing all the facts about the case in his book, he knows that it will hinder the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The point I was making with regard to the dogs is that Kate was untruthful in her tome when she suggested cadaver scent lasted 30  days therefore everything she has written must also be approached with caution and verified independently.

As to the subject of litigation, unlike the McCanns, most ordinary people don't have a fund to bankroll them if they choose to sue and I would very much doubt libel lawyers such as Duarte undertake work on a CFA basis.

As to hindering the investigation, isn't that what Kate was warned she would be doing by not answering those pesky 48 questions ?

But there is a very, very big difference between Kate's refusal and Amaral's determination to go ahead with his book.

The former was an action done openly with total disregard for the fact that he was potentially damaging the search. It was deliberate and selfish to satisfy his honour and his bank manager.

With regard to Kate being warned that her refusal to answer the questions could damage the search then the situation is different. Being fully aware that she was not responsible for the disappearance of her child she would have known (unlike the police officer who was warning/threatening her) that her action in refusing to answer questions was not damaging the case as they were irrelevant questions which did not relate to an abductor but to herself.

You keep telling yourself that Gilet. Your support of the McCanns will still be strong but your betrayal of Madeleine will be immeasurable.

I find that remark extremely offensive.

If you cannot see the difference then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.

But you have no right whatsoever to act so pompously as to accuse me of betraying Madeleine McCann whilst you endorse the posts which show no empathy whatsoever with her or her family.

Because I believe that Madeleine was the victim of stranger abduction -  then to NOT support the McCanns is to support the abductor(s) IMO.    Thanks but no thanks.




Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 12:25:29 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ? 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:27:52 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:28:37 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:30:02 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ?

18 May 2007

Trademark application filed
 
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name "Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned". The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
 
Source: The Times 14 August 2007 (link)
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:31:21 AM

Video reports, news reports, longer articles all testify to the incompetence of the PJ. There are clear failures to follow up things in the files. Rebelo is reported to have been appalled at the state the case was in when Amaral was dismissed. And so on.

Have you got a link about Inspector Rebelo, who belongs to the PJ btw, being appalled by the state of the case ? Do you know if he answered Mrs McCann's letter ?
Have you any information from the LC officers who directly witnessed the work of the PJ as they were using the same installations in Portimão ?

I don't have the precise report to hand but I will find it tomorrow.

In the meantime here is a description of the shambles found when Rebelo took over.

http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/inept-incompetent-im-incandescent.html

No, I don't have a reply from Rebelo to Kate McCann. Do you? Or could that be yet another example of appalling work on the part of the PJ, not even bothering to answer the questions of the mother of the missing child?

Unlike Portuguese police reports which we know were released to the public without even the sensible precaution of removing personal information (another crassly incompetent action from the PT authorities) I would not expect to be able to read the reports of LC officers.  UK police reports are sensibly confidential.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:33:04 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

What a stupid comment? Do you really think the abductor carried on walking for ever? That makes you look insane.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:33:46 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:34:27 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ?

18 May 2007

Trademark application filed
 
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name "Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned". The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
 
Source: The Times 14 August 2007 (link)

Normal practice for any business to apply to trademark the business name. I am sure that would have been done by any competent solicitor or other person setting up the Fund.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:34:35 AM


Because I believe that Madeleine was the victim of stranger abduction -  then to NOT support the McCanns is to support the abductor(s) IMO.    Thanks but no thanks.
What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 12:35:59 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fists on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Algiers ! 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:36:31 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

Personally I prefer direct quotes over reported second-hand comments any day.

I wonder why people go to this Mail article and ignore the original.

Well really, I don't wonder, I know. Because the original with the actual quotes doesn't fit their agenda so they go to the less reliable source which does.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 12:37:46 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ?

18 May 2007

Trademark application filed
 
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name "Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned". The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
 
Source: The Times 14 August 2007 (link)

ah right,  I see  (  thanks for that )  ...  something advised by lawyers I suppose  ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:38:57 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 12:39:17 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.

Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

He was walking when Jane Tanner saw him - but that doesn't mean he didnt end up in a car does it?

The police didn't know about the Smith sighting until much later - and so their sighting didn't come into the equation at the time of the abduction - only Jane Tanners.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:39:36 AM
Back to the OP then.  It is highly understandable why the Fund was created and why they applied for the Trademark.



Trademark  ? 

What trademark  ?

18 May 2007

Trademark application filed
 
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name "Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned". The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
 
Source: The Times 14 August 2007 (link)

ah right,  I see  (  thanks for that )  ...  something advised by lawyers I suppose  ?

Almost certainly.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

You mean the utterly truthful Express who paid the McCanns an out of court settlement of half a million pounds for telling lies about them, that Express ?

Care to supply a link for the Express article ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:40:46 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

Personally I prefer direct quotes over reported second-hand comments any day.

I wonder why people go to this Mail article and ignore the original.

Well really, I don't wonder, I know. Because the original with the actual quotes doesn't fit their agenda so they go to the less reliable source which does.
Hit the nail on the head there Gilet. 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:41:06 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

What a stupid comment? Do you really think the abductor carried on walking for ever? That makes you look insane.
Ad hominem when no other available argument ! Easier than thinking ! How do you know whether this child carrier had a car ? All the witnesses saw him walking !
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:41:29 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.

Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

He was walking when Jane Tanner saw him - but that doesn't mean he didnt end up in a car does it?

The police didn't know about the Smith sighting until much later - and so their sighting didn't come into the equation at the time of the abduction - only Jane Tanners.

Exactly, the only knowledge the McCanns had of walking was within a few metres of the apartment. Car could have been around the corner for all they knew.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:43:52 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

What a stupid comment? Do you really think the abductor carried on walking for ever? That makes you look insane.
Ad hominem when no other available argument ! Easier than thinking ! How do you know whether this child carrier had a car ? All the witnesses saw him walking !

No I was not commenting directly on your sanity which would have been AD HOMINEM. (directed at the person).

If you read very, very carefully you will see that I was very clear that I was commenting on the content of your post which in its utter and ridiculous naivety "makes you look insane".

Please do try and recognise the difference. The term Ad Hominem has a very precise meaning. Its the sort of basic thing you learn in language courses at good universities as I did.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 12:44:01 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Well,  there it is

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 

I think that's  normal ...  and I am glad to differ with you in that respect
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 12:44:18 AM


Because I believe that Madeleine was the victim of stranger abduction -  then to NOT support the McCanns is to support the abductor(s) IMO.    Thanks but no thanks.
What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?

IMO she was abducted from her bed.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:45:30 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

You mean the utterly truthful Express who paid the McCanns an out of court settlement of half a million pounds for telling lies about them, that Express ?

Care to supply a link for the Express article ?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:46:28 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Well,  there it is

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 

I think that's  normal ...  and I am glad to differ with you in that respect

Everyone is different but almost no-one would remain utterly unmoved as certain posters here seem to imagine, by the disappearance of their child.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:48:03 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

You mean the utterly truthful Express who paid the McCanns an out of court settlement of half a million pounds for telling lies about them, that Express ?

Care to supply a link for the Express article ?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm

Direct quotes are not the same as the invented garbage for which a number of newspapers were rightfully punished.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

Spain is in Schengen. Do you think that Portugal has the power to roadblock Schengen borders ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Faithlilly on June 01, 2013, 12:50:45 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

Well your article is from the Daily Mail in which they quote the Daily Express. My article is the Daily Express article which is the correct one.  So what are your opinions now?  Now that you have read exactly what John Stalker said.

You mean the utterly truthful Express who paid the McCanns an out of court settlement of half a million pounds for telling lies about them, that Express ?

Care to supply a link for the Express article ?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm

The link doesn't work for me but here is the article in full :


McCanns 'are hiding a big secret' Sunday Express (article no longer available online)


By John Stalker
Sunday October 28, 2007

I HAVE watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.

One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group – the Tapas Nine – remained so silent? My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.

Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.

Their answer has always been no comment but there is surely some division between them. So what are they hiding? I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth.

There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about.

While they continue to refuse to talk it is unlikely we will find out what it is for a very long time but one thing is certain – it will eventually come out.

The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.

The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.

My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.

My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing. I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever. To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing. Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, there is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order. They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean they are guilty of anything sinister.

Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine. That should be the aim of all concerned.

But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?

    

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 12:51:08 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Well,  there it is

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 

I think that's  normal ...  and I am glad to differ with you in that respect

Did Jessica's father do the same  - and if not does that make him abnormal or any less caring in your opinion?



Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 12:52:50 AM
David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

Spain is in Schengen. Do you think that Portugal has the power to roadblock Schengen borders ?

Yes.
They put a roadblock on the Portuguese side.
It is a very simple action.
No reason for Spain to be involved at all.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 12:55:39 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Well,  there it is

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 

I think that's  normal ...  and I am glad to differ with you in that respect

Did Jessica's father do the same  - and if not does that make him abnormal or any less caring in your opinion?

I don't know what the poor man did  ...  but my guess is that 20 minutes after he found Jessica to be missing he wasn't talking about closing the Channel Tunnel
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: TTSOFAFM on June 01, 2013, 12:56:14 AM
So Faithlily now you have read the article what are you comments about what John Stalker says about the actions of the PJ and how they mishandled the investigation and his opinion that the McCanns played no part in what happened to their daughter and how he believes Madeleine was abducted?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 12:58:10 AM

What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?
--------------------------------------------------

IMO she was abducted from her bed.
You're not answering...
Abduction from bed lacks forensic corroboration. Like Eddie's alerts..
For disappearance from the street there's some evidence though.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:00:11 AM
I think the one thing that has been shown without any doubt at all is that the incompetence of the PJ was probably a prime motivation for the McCanns and all those around them for wanting the fund to succeed.

Once the money started to flow in, it had to be dealt with.  As John McCann was being interviewed in Rothley on the very day of the launch there were people literally handing money over to him.

The McCanns and their advisers dealt with the setting up of the fund in a very professional way and left open the possible uses for the monies collected.

Having seen the way in which the PJ were going about the investigation it is not surprising that one of the potential uses was to undertake their own investigations (and yes, that was right in the earliest days). Any parent would do the same if they thought (or were being persuaded) that others could do a better job than the people currently in charge. They would owe that to their child.



Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:01:34 AM

What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?
--------------------------------------------------

IMO she was abducted from her bed.
You're not answering...
Abduction from bed lacks forensic corroboration. Like Eddie's alerts..
For disappearance from the street there's some evidence though.

Oh this should be good.

Please do enlighten us as to what this evidence (or even forensic corroboration if there is any) for disappearance from the street might be. I am all ears as they say.

Clearly from your post you think it is far more convincing than anything relating to abduction from the bed.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:02:42 AM

Yes Schengen ones. Police roadblocks can be put on any road anywhere including at Schengen borders.
Roadblocks ? But the carrier was walking..

Kate says in her book that before the police had arrived  (  whilst she was banging her fist on the metal  railings of the veranda )  David Payne was already remarking :

"We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted"

They weren't outside searching ditches and gardens looking for her  ...  they were immediately talking about Morocco and Agiers !

Yes, its that lack of empathy and understanding again.

Can you not understand that when something happens as traumatic as a child going missing people might say and do anything which might just might possibly have an effect.

Clearly you wouldn't give a damm about the borders if your child went missing. But most sane people would realise that your lack of concern is not normal.

Well,  there it is

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 

I think that's  normal ...  and I am glad to differ with you in that respect

Did Jessica's father do the same  - and if not does that make him abnormal or any less caring in your opinion?

I don't know what the poor man did  ...  but my guess is that 20 minutes after he found Jessica to be missing he wasn't talking about closing the Channel Tunnel

He wasn't in a foreign country though. No telling what effect that might have on the thought processes!
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 01:04:57 AM

I would have been like Holly Wells father,  who rode his bike through the streets like a madman  screaming  his little girls name out into the darkness  (  God love him ) 
How much I can identify with this poor father. It wouldn't pass my mind, sobbing, that it is empathy.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 01:12:56 AM

 one of the potential uses was to undertake their own investigations (and yes, that was right in the earliest days). Any parent would do the same if they thought (or were being persuaded) that others could do a better job than the people currently in charge.
Sure, but have they done a better job ?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:18:40 AM

 one of the potential uses was to undertake their own investigations (and yes, that was right in the earliest days). Any parent would do the same if they thought (or were being persuaded) that others could do a better job than the people currently in charge.
Sure, but have they done a better job ?

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

We are discussing motivation back in 2007?

How would the McCanns know the future?

All that they were concerned with at that time was getting as many people searching for their child, doing as much as was practically possible to recover their child.

This topic is about the setting up of the fund and my point is that the motivation for that was at least in part the perceived incompetence of the PJ.


But to answer the off-topic point you have made. One thing is clear, the constant awareness building, the pressure (at least partly boosted by the fund), the translations it afforded etc persuaded the parents to lobby for a review by SY and persuaded the govt to initiate that inquiry which now does in fact seem to be identifying aspects of the PJ inquiry which were not followed up properly.


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:24:22 AM

What about Madeleine abducted not from bed, but from outside, searching for her parents? Is not supporting Mr and Mrs McCann also supporting the abductor ?
--------------------------------------------------

IMO she was abducted from her bed.
You're not answering...
Abduction from bed lacks forensic corroboration. Like Eddie's alerts..
For disappearance from the street there's some evidence though.

Any chance of seeing that evidence of abduction from the street? Its getting to be time for bed and I really don't want to miss it.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 01:41:55 AM
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 01:53:26 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 01:59:11 AM
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware your bed was expecting you.
It's simple : witnesses agree in seeing a man carrying a little girl  whom all witnesses, except for one who only saw legs, agree also in thinking it could very well have been Madeleine.
That's evidence !
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 02:00:09 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 02:05:14 AM
I will look in for the evidence later Anne Guedes. Its late and my bed beckons.

I hope it will be worth the wait.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware your bed was expecting you.
It's simple : witnesses agree in seeing a man carrying a little girl  whom all witnesses, except for one who only saw legs, agree also in thinking it could very well have been Madeleine.
That's evidence !

Oh dear, was that what you have kept me up for.

That is evidence of abduction I agree (though some rather odd people do not believe it is) but it is no more evidence of abduction from the street than it is from the apartment.

There is no indidcation in the evidence which you have just referred to of where the child was taken from. It could equally have been the street or the apartment or any other place for that matter.

I really was expecting more from you when you were so disparaging in your post to Benice and decried her idea of abduction from the apartment. But I see you have offered nothing whatsoever to prove that the street was more likely. Absolutely zilch as they say.

What a waste of time.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 01, 2013, 02:24:54 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.
I agree if treated like magic thought : you plan against the worst hoping secretly that, thanks to this, the best will come.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 03:08:30 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

That really is a non-argument.

Sometimes things have to be organised just in case the child is not found.

Can you not even appreciate that?

You consider the worst and hope for the best but in considering the worst you have to make plans.
I agree if treated like magic thought : you plan against the worst hoping secretly that, thanks to this, the best will come.

Nothing whatsoever to do with magic. What a peculiar thought?

You plan because planned action is more intelligent and usually more productive than random action.
 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 09:41:45 AM
No TT this was the article I was thinking of http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490254/McCanns-hiding-big-secret-police-chief-claims.html

McCanns 'are hiding a big secret', former police chief claims
Last updated at 14:34 28 October 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are hiding a "big secret" about the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, according a former police chief claims.
John Stalker, who headed a famous inquiry into whether suspected IRA men were killed by RUC officers, is suspicious of their silence.
Scroll down for more...

Expert analysis: Former police chief John Stalker believes the McCanns are hiding a secret
Read more...
McCanns face agonising wait to clear their names
The former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police told the Sunday Express: ?My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
?I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag out for six months.
?One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group ? the Tapas Nine ? remained so silent?
?Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other.
?After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
?I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth. There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about?

John Stalker was apparently oblivious of the rules of judicial secrecy. Perhaps that isn't surprising as the PJ was leaking like a sieve, although he should have done a bit of homework before spouting.

What exactly should they have "broken ranks" about?

Kate and Gerry had support to help them handle the baying wolves of the press pack and to try to keep the media focused on the search; the T7 didn't. I find it totally understandable that the T7 did not want the media pack camped on their doorsteps, and anything they said would have been twisted in any case.

As witnesses, they weren't allowed to talk about the investigation and could have faced legal consequences if they did.

Matt and Dave Payne did reply to a journalist late June and look what happened there:



Madeleine Case - A Pact of Silence SOL
 
By Felicia Cabrita and Margarida Davim
30 June 2007

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html


Mathew Oldfield, one of the elements of the group, is back in England. He reacts with surprise upon the contact of Sol, but he does not avoid the conversation: "We drank. We were on holiday. So what?".


Matt's innocent reply was used to intimate that they were pissed as newts. Sometime around that time the myth that they had consumed 14 bottles of wine that evening was launched - and is still blithely repeated as fact by certain quarters.


When David Payne stated that there was an agreement that Kate and Gerry should deal with the press and refused to engage further, this was somehow made to sound as if they had some sinister secret to cover up.

"We have a pact. This is our matter only. It is nobody else's business", says David Payne, another element with the group.

In reality, in context, he was being quizzed about Murat having been made arguido. If Murat had been charged (which he never was: he was never even arrested), if Dave had said anything more, it might have jeopardised a fair trial.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 10:10:51 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.

Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Benice on June 01, 2013, 10:32:22 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.

This is true.   The organisers of events planned for the future do so hoping and praying that nothing will happen to cause the event to be cancelled.

In the McCann's case  - the opposite is true.  They organise future events hoping and praying that something will happen so that they CAN cancel them.


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 10:57:57 AM

How would the McCanns know the future?

Sometimes, anticipating events within months, they did as if they knew Madeleine wasn't going to pop up next day.

The initial searches led nowhere. She hadn't been found (alive or dead). Days and weeks were passing with no positive news.

Of course, she might have been found any day... but planning ahead to continue to keep a high profile in case she wasn't found seems to me to be a recognition that finding her might take longer than expected and keeping a constructive focus.

If she had been found, then future media events or other planned publicity could have easily been cancelled or transformed into a celebration of thanks that she had been.

This is true.   The organisers of events planned for the future do so hoping and praying that nothing will happen to cause the event to be cancelled.

In the McCann's case  - the opposite is true.  They organise future events hoping and praying that something will happen so that they CAN cancel them.


Focusing on a goal, with objectives and concrete action steps, may well have been part of Alan Pike's advice.
The alternative would have been to break down in a heap of misery, which wouldn't have helped the search at all.

Pick yourselves up. There's no proof that she's dead.

Set your goal, work out the objectives and sub-objectives, and the action steps needed to work forward.

I'll never understand why Paulo Reis suddenly found this suspicious. Perhaps he'd be influenced by PJ "leaks".


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: xtina on June 01, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
carana quote
In reality, in context, he was being quizzed about Murat having been made arguido. If Murat had been charged (which he never was: he was never even arrested), if Dave had said anything more, it might have jeopardised a fair trial.


Off topic ..but feel it gives me the opportunity to ask the question  if any of the posters on here are related or close to the mccs..

I have often thought it odd ..the way some are so over protective of them ....as if taken too  personal ...rather than just being a mcc supporter..

Odd Dave ....and not David Payne.............as if you know him personally...[hope u dont mind me asking]
 
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2013, 11:13:12 AM
Don't think for a minute that the McCanns and their pals don't follow the forums and even post under false names?   8(0(*

In reference to the Limited Company you can obtain a copy of the financial records from Companies house as it is public information.  If anyone has already obtained this data can they post it on a new thread.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 12:45:22 PM
carana quote
In reality, in context, he was being quizzed about Murat having been made arguido. If Murat had been charged (which he never was: he was never even arrested), if Dave had said anything more, it might have jeopardised a fair trial.


Off topic ..but feel it gives me the opportunity to ask the question  if any of the posters on here are related or close to the mccs..

I have often thought it odd ..the way some are so over protective of them ....as if taken too  personal ...rather than just being a mcc supporter..

Odd Dave ....and not David Payne.............as if you know him personally...[hope u dont mind me asking]

Not at all. Why would that be odd? He was referred to as Dave.


 I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

I presume you have always referred to Gerry as Gerald?


Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 01:25:09 PM
In view of expectations in some quarters as to what transparent practice should look like, perhaps someone could post the full accounts of the fundraising efforts and expenditure for Tony Bennett and Amaral?
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: DCI on June 01, 2013, 01:28:47 PM
In view of expectations in some quarters as to what transparent practice should look like, perhaps someone could post the full accounts of the fundraising efforts and expenditure for Tony Bennett and Amaral?

Thats what I said on the last page, Carana. Don't go holding your breath, though  ?>)()<
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Angelo222 on June 01, 2013, 05:24:16 PM
There is a lot of analyses already on the internet about the fund but here is a link for anyone want to view it.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id429.html
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 01, 2013, 06:56:08 PM
(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6293/hatter10lisbon.jpg)

an example of what the Mccanns can expect when they follow angellos advice
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 07:32:44 PM
I got lost trying to catch up several pages ago.

The title of the thread is: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review

And it's turned into whether bedding should have gone, or did not need to go, for forensic analysis.

And I posted a link to a different thread, to continue a discussion on that one, asking what happened to the missing hairs on her bed... and the silence is deafening.
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Redblossom on June 01, 2013, 07:34:45 PM
I got lost trying to catch up several pages ago.

The title of the thread is: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review

And it's turned into whether bedding should have gone, or did not need to go, for forensic analysis.

And I posted a link to a different thread, to continue a discussion on that one, asking what happened to the missing hairs on her bed... and the silence is deafening.
threads DO get derailed carana, ask DCI why, any thread will do to trash Mr amaral for them, as IF if it is EVER going to paint the Mccans whiter, own goal double barrelled most of the time, wasted effort and so boring, toodles for now
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: DCI on June 01, 2013, 07:39:26 PM
I got lost trying to catch up several pages ago.

The title of the thread is: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review

And it's turned into whether bedding should have gone, or did not need to go, for forensic analysis.

And I posted a link to a different thread, to continue a discussion on that one, asking what happened to the missing hairs on her bed... and the silence is deafening.
threads DO get derailed carana, ask DCI why, any thread will do to trash Mr amaral for them, as IF if it is EVER going to paint the Mccans whiter, own goal double barrelled most of the time, wasted effort and so boring, toodles for now

 8)><(
Title: Re: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review
Post by: Carana on June 01, 2013, 08:08:47 PM
I got lost trying to catch up several pages ago.

The title of the thread is: Criticism of the Find Madeleine Fund and Review

And it's turned into whether bedding should have gone, or did not need to go, for forensic analysis.

And I posted a link to a different thread, to continue a discussion on that one, asking what happened to the missing hairs on her bed... and the silence is deafening.

I have made it very clear on a number of occasions that the incompetence of the PJ is probably a very, very important factor in why the Fund was pushed so strongly by the McCanns. They knew they needed help other than from the police force they believed were failing them.

So I believe fully exploring that incompetence is a perfectly valid subject especially as some posters were criticising the fund because the McCanns were suggesting it might be used for other professionals to be used in the search.


Vaste programme.