UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: Luz on October 31, 2013, 09:18:19 AM

Title: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on October 31, 2013, 09:18:19 AM
This has been amply discussed, and even though I don't want to disrupt the thread, I hope you understand - I trust you are intelligent enough for that.

If you prefer to believe a convicted child murderer, whose full confession to the PJ was produced in the 13th October in the presence of her lawyer, and weeks later accused she doesn't know how many or who they were, PJs to having tortured her to obtain a confession, on the 14th of October. Only after Aragão Correia imposed himself to substitute her previous lawyer, by visiting her in Odemira prison, did some names rise. Those alleged aggressors were not even in the building at the time she (or Aragão Correia) alleged she was beaten. That's the reason why they were acquitted. The only two persons that were convicted were the ones that were present inside the PJ, and even though a crime could not be proven they were condemned for not reporting it.
In February 2013, it was proven that Leonor had lied about being tortured inside the PJ, and sentenced for having committed perjury.

Leonor Correia was indeed spanked, but inside the prison of Odemira - but as that was his first lawyer (João Grade) thesis, Aragão Correia went to the prison, and even writing the letter from Leonor, made her dismiss her lawyer and accept him instead, and changed it to the PJ, because his mission was to "get Amaral", as he confessed at the end of the first Court trial, to the journalists.

1396
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on October 31, 2013, 09:30:59 AM

This has been amply discussed, and even though I don't want to disrupt the thread, I hope you understand - I trust you are intelligent enough for that.

If you prefer to believe a convicted child murderer, whose full confession to the PJ was produced in the 13th October in the presence of her lawyer, and weeks later accused she doesn't know how many or who they were, PJs to having tortured her to obtain a confession. Only after Aragão Correia imposed himself to substitute her previous lawyer, by visiting her in Odemira prison, did some names rise. Those alleged aggressors were not even in the building at the time she (or Aragão Correia) alleged she was beaten. The reason why they were acquitted. The only two persons that were convicted were the ones that were present inside the PJ, and even though a crime could not be proven they were condemned for not reporting it.
In February 2013, it was proven that Leonor had lied about being tortured inside the PJ, and sentenced for having committed perjury.

Leonor Correia was indeed spanked, but inside the prison of Odemira - but as that was his first lawyer (João Grade) thesis, Aragão Correia went to the prison, and even writing the letter from Leonor, made her dismiss her lawyer and accept him instead, and changed it to the PJ, because his mission was to "get Amaral", as he confessed at the end of the first Court trial, to the journalists.

Well all you have to do Luz is show us the official statements quashing Amaral's conviction - and also maybe explain why Amaral himself has made no such claim. 

IIRC LC was found guilty of mis-identifying her torturers.  The fact that torture took place, as established in a court of law, was never in question - only the correct identification of the torturers - which has still to be established.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on October 31, 2013, 09:44:28 AM
Well all you have to do Luz is show us the official statements quashing Amaral's conviction - and also maybe explain why Amaral himself has made no such claim. 

IIRC LC was found guilty of mis-identifying her torturers.  The fact that torture took place, as established in a court of law, was never in question - only the correct identification of the torturers - which has still to be established.


Inside the jail house. The medical experts identified that her bruises had been produced in different times and later than the date she alleged.

What does it have to do with the PJ?!

Sometimes I wonder if you people are lacking reasoning skills (no insult intended) or just on a mission like good old Aragão.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 09:46:06 AM

This has been amply discussed, and even though I don't want to disrupt the thread, I hope you understand - I trust you are intelligent enough for that.

If you prefer to believe a convicted child murderer, whose full confession to the PJ was produced in the 13th October in the presence of her lawyer, and weeks later accused she doesn't know how many or who they were, PJs to having tortured her to obtain a confession, on the 14th of October. Only after Aragão Correia imposed himself to substitute her previous lawyer, by visiting her in Odemira prison, did some names rise. Those alleged aggressors were not even in the building at the time she (or Aragão Correia) alleged she was beaten. That's the reason why they were acquitted. The only two persons that were convicted were the ones that were present inside the PJ, and even though a crime could not be proven they were condemned for not reporting it.
In February 2013, it was proven that Leonor had lied about being tortured inside the PJ, and sentenced for having committed perjury.

Leonor Correia was indeed spanked, but inside the prison of Odemira - but as that was his first lawyer (João Grade) thesis, Aragão Correia went to the prison, and even writing the letter from Leonor, made her dismiss her lawyer and accept him instead, and changed it to the PJ, because his mission was to "get Amaral", as he confessed at the end of the first Court trial, to the journalists.

Leonor Cipriano was not beaten in prison, as was pointed out by The Governor, whose word I choose to believe against yours.
Neither did she confess to murdering her daughter before she was beaten.  Otherwise there would have been no need to beat her.
A Portuguese Court did rule that she was beaten while in PJ Custody.

Or are you saying that she confessed and then The PJ beat her for a bit of fun?

Her Lawyer was certainly not present when she was beaten.  And she was in PJ custody for more than 24 hours.  Having a bit of a chat, were they?
Your persistent denial of these facts just does not make sense.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 31, 2013, 09:51:25 AM
Leonor Cipriano was not beaten in prison, as was pointed out by The Governor, whose word I choose to believe against yours.
Neither did she confess to murdering her daughter before she was beaten.  Otherwise there would have been no need to beat her.
A Portuguese Court did rule that she was beaten while in PJ Custody.

Or are you saying that she confessed and then The PJ beat her for a bit of fun?

Her Lawyer was certainly not present when she was beaten.  And she was in PJ custody for more than 24 hours.  Having a bit of a chat, were they?
Your persistent denial of these facts just does not make sense.

Your defence of an incestuous monster does not make sense.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 09:55:39 AM

Because Leonor miss identified her torturers doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It did happen.  And Leonor Cipriano wasn't the only one.  It was common practice when The PJ couldn't get a confession.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on October 31, 2013, 09:56:01 AM
Ask Luz.  I was just replying to her post.

PS.  Do you actually read the posts of other people?

Quite frankly I don't have the time to read every post.

I do have other things to do in my life.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 09:57:00 AM
Your defence of an incestuous monster does not make sense.

The Incest Claim was thrown out by The Court.  You don't know much, do you.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on October 31, 2013, 09:57:09 AM
It did happen.  And Leonor Cipriano wasn't the only one.  It was common practice when The PJ couldn't get a confession.

Can you prove the PJ tortured her ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on October 31, 2013, 09:58:20 AM

Inside the jail house. The medical experts identified that her bruises had been produced in different times and later than the date she alleged.

What does it have to do with the PJ?!

Sometimes I wonder if you people are lacking reasoning skills (no insult intended) or just on a mission like good old Aragão.

If Amaral has been exonerated and his conviction quashed - then there will be documentary evidence to prove that.  I've never seen it.        If Amaral no longer has a criminal conviction - why isn't he shouting it from the rooftops?  Surely having his 'honour' restored is not something he of all people would want to keep quiet.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 09:59:03 AM
Can you prove the PJ tortured her ?

The Court found that she was.  How much proof do you need?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on October 31, 2013, 10:02:07 AM
Can you prove the PJ tortured her ?

Can you prove they didn't ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 10:21:27 AM
I find that incomprehensible.  The court did not believe the motive for the crime as claimed by the PJ  = and yet she was still found guilty??

Ah but, that was in the days when The PJ Ruled, okay.  They won't even try to get away with that again.

So some good has come from this.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on October 31, 2013, 04:29:59 PM
Why do you keep peddling this nonsense  ?

Joana Cipriano was not  'almost certainly' taken from  Figueira 

She was  murdered  by her mother and uncle who are currently  serving long prison sentences

You may believe that the convictions were unsafe,  but you most certainly do not have evidence that  proves,  or even suggests,  that the little girl was  'abducted'

Yet you persistantly present it as  'fact'  ...  why do you do that  ?

For pretty much the same reasons you do.

Carolina is a fact.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on October 31, 2013, 04:37:57 PM
For pretty much the same reasons you do.

Carolina is a fact.

And your evidence for this fact is.....???
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on October 31, 2013, 04:39:39 PM
Give me some evidence it's not.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on October 31, 2013, 04:42:23 PM
And your evidence for this fact is.....???

It would (or should) be expected that you would produce some counter evidence and THEN ask for the evidence.

Isn't that the way thinks work?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on October 31, 2013, 05:00:22 PM
Give me some evidence it's not.

You give your source for so being so adamant its a fact....you claimed it you back it up....i have seen no source for this  allegation apart from the bog roll Sun, if other UK papers reported it I missed it, PT papers contradicted the bog roll....best to find what is really what before spreading disinformation or misinformation, not sure of the exact difference....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on October 31, 2013, 05:01:35 PM
Is bog roll Sun better than the Mirror?

ponders
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 05:12:01 PM
Why do you keep peddling this nonsense  ?

Joana Cipriano was not  'almost certainly' taken from  Figueira 

She was  murdered  by her mother and uncle who are currently  serving long prison sentences

You may believe that the convictions were unsafe,  but you most certainly do not have evidence that  proves,  or even suggests,  that the little girl was  'abducted'

Yet you persistantly present it as  'fact'  ...  why do you do that  ?
Have you forgotten the torture Icabod? 
1)  Leonor very very seriously tortured for two days and beaten black and blue.
 
2)  Joao also reputedly tortured, but he gave in much more easily than Leonor.  He couldn't stand the pain.  He wrote her a letter of apology after they were both jailed.

3)  The only so called witness was Leandro who was Leonors partner.  Alledgedly Amaral beat him, so he agreed to be a witness for the prosecution.  After the case, he rescinded his testimony telling the world that it was beaten out of him.
Leandro also warned the Mccanns of what to expect.

4)  The whole Court records are based upon beaten, tortured out, NON EVIDENCE, and the one judge was so upset about the case that he protested and IIRC refused to put his name on the Court documents

5)  Have you forgotten the black Limousine cruising around the streets of Figueira?  A limousine that people commented on?  Of course Figueira is close to both the famous Penina golf Club (0.75 mile), the Alvor private aeroclub (1mile) and also not far from the ?private Lagos airstrip (5 miles) and the beautiful marina at lagos (6 miles).  A lot of wealth around there.

6)  And have you forgotten the little camper van that was there, in Figueira, for several days?  That suddenly vanished when Joana vanished.   I think it was described as green and brown at the time.  That was found abandoned at PdL. just 7 miles away.


Jeez Icabod

I dont know how you can be so naive to carte blanche believe these Gawd awful PJ Officers after
1)  all the torture, and
2)  the fact that so many of them are now proven as being criminals or liars in court. 
3)  Cristavao who was on the Joana case is currently waiting to be tried on seven major charges.
4)  Amaral has a conviction for perjury (lying)
5)  several others have unsavoury illegal things against them
6)  Cristavao made mega bucks out of writing a book about Joana, based on the story that he and Amaral concocted
7)  One judge would have no part in the verdict
8)  The cruising black limousine
9)  the sleeper van which having been parked in Figueira for days suddenly disappeared to be found abandoned at nearby PdL

And, just why was it necessary to torture anyone, if the PJ had a case?  Have you asked yourself that?

Are you so blind that you cannot see beyond the end of your nose?  Almost without doubt, Joana was abducted.

Leonor, whilst only a peasant woman is an incredibly brave woman and from photographs, proved herself as a good mother


Such injustice !
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on October 31, 2013, 05:14:16 PM
off topic again
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 05:17:53 PM
off topic again
I am sorry IMPO, but I was merely responding to a challenge laid by Icabod.  It had to be said. 

Maybe he should start another thread on the topic ... again
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on October 31, 2013, 05:20:17 PM
it's impossible
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 05:32:01 PM
I realise I'm new to this site but I have read about the other cases too. Carolina does not appear to have been taken anywhere. She was always with her father when some bloke (known trouble maker) threatened to abduct her. By the way, she was 3, not 5.

Joana was not most certainly abducted. Two people are in jail for her murder. If your investigations prove otherwise then I would expect you to be fighting hard for their release. Are you? If so how often have you contacted the PJ and what have the PJ told you they are going to do about it. Just a summary will do thanks - I realise you cherish your research and don't wish to divulge it on here.

Much appriciated :)

The PJ know who tortured Leonor Cipriano.  They are bringing a case against all five of them to relieve them of their pensions.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on October 31, 2013, 05:35:47 PM
Why is it Sadie's job?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on October 31, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
I realise I'm new to this site but I have read about the other cases too. Carolina does not appear to have been taken anywhere. She was always with her father when some bloke (known trouble maker) threatened to abduct her. By the way, she was 3, not 5.



Thank you ! OM
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 05:39:23 PM
With respect, that doesn't answer my question nor are you in a position to answer my question (since you are not sadie). If they are victims of a miscarriage of justice whats steps has sadie taken to help set them free?

sadie?

Some of us are trying, believe me.  And so is Amnesty International.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on October 31, 2013, 05:40:36 PM
Because it was a direct question to her about her own investigations. No one else is in a position to answer.

Why is it her responsibility though?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on October 31, 2013, 05:47:09 PM
Because she is the only person who know the answer since it is about her.

If I asked you a question "Jazzy - what are you having for tea" then you are the only person who can answer. Well, its the same with the question I asked sadie. She is the only person who can answer as she is the only person who has information about what I asked. Thats why I asked her directly for the answer.

Now - Jazzy, what are you having for tea ?  8)--))

Already had it mate.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on October 31, 2013, 05:50:57 PM
Some of us are trying, believe me.  And so is Amnesty International.

Amnesty international is not doing anything for lenora cipriano (sp).
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on October 31, 2013, 05:55:03 PM
Amnesty international is not doing anything for lenora cipriano (sp).

I'm not surprised you don't know about it if you can't even spell her name.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2013, 05:55:35 PM
Amnesty international is not doing anything for lenora cipriano (sp).

it already has done . By featuring the progress her torture case against the PJ it gave her its support and made sure it couldn't be brushed under the carpet
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on October 31, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
it already has done . By featuring the progress her torture case against the PJ it gave her its support and made sure it couldn't be brushed under the carpet

Are Amnesty International fighting to have Cipriano's conviction overturned  ? 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2013, 06:06:55 PM
Are Amnesty International fighting to have Cipriano's conviction overturned  ?

As far as I am aware this is not part of their remit///but her torture certaimly was
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on October 31, 2013, 06:27:50 PM
I'm not surprised you don't know about it if you can't even spell her name.

Why all the belittling and nastiness Elenor? Amnesty is not involve in the case. I won't attempt to spell her name again in case you belittle me further, you are aware of which case I mean though.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on October 31, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
As far as I am aware this is not part of their remit///but her torture certaimly was

Well seeking to have convictions overturned   IS  part of their remit

Are they fighting to have Cipriano's conviction overturned  ? 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on October 31, 2013, 07:04:58 PM
Well seeking to have convictions overturned   IS  part of their remit

Are they fighting to have Cipriano's conviction overturned  ?

Only the most severe miscarriages of justice and most obvious...they weren't involved with Barry George for instance
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 07:59:02 PM
With respect, that doesn't answer my question nor are you in a position to answer my question (since you are not sadie). If they are victims of a miscarriage of justice whats steps has sadie taken to help set them free?

sadie?
Thank you for correcting me on my slip up on Carolinas age.  You are quite correct, she was 3 as i have always written before.

Openinded there is only so much that any one person can do.  I am already up to my limit with investigating who took these 7 missing children ... and as I get older (and stay on this forum longer) I cope less well.  My energy levels and patience have dropped dramatically thanks to bullying. 

You are not starting too are you?  Cos this is NOT your first unnecessary attack.

I do try and keep everyone aware of the awful injustices surroundinng that case tho
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 08:06:24 PM
Why all the belittling and nastiness Elenor? Amnesty is not involve in the case. I won't attempt to spell her name again in case you belittle me further, you are aware of which case I mean though.
Listen to who is talking !  Why did you make no effort to spell Eleanor?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on October 31, 2013, 08:26:29 PM
Listen to who is talking !  Why did you make no effort to spell Eleanor?

I find it remarkable that you accuse others of bullying behaviour! Do you not recognise that that is what you are doing? I haven't belittled anyone and I've bent over backwards to be nice to you in particular.

Yes, it was impolite to mis spell Eleanor and I apologise for that. Elenor is the more usual spelling in Wales, in fact my friends daughter is Elenor. It's just what I'm used to. I hadn't actually noticed until you pointed it out. Thank you for that. I will make an effort not to do it again.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 08:27:48 PM
I was only asking politely (as I always have always been polite on this forum) if you could share a précis of you discussions with the PJ. If you do not wish to share your knowledge that is entirely up to you. Don't be suprised if people question you though. That is after all the point of a forum. But please don't confuse a polite request for an attack because that's the signs of paranoia, and I'm sure you're not a paranoid person.

Peace :)

PS, any chance of you sharing that information I requested?
Quite right.  I am not paranoid.

You obviously have not been reading anything that I say. 8)-)))

Where did I say that I had discussions with the PJ ?  I dont speak the Lingo to begin with.

I have already stated that i am not prepared to share any info that might be ex-judicy
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 08:30:53 PM
I find it remarkable that you accuse others of bullying behaviour! Do you not recognise that that is what you are doing? I haven't belittled anyone and I've bent over backwards to be nice to you in particular.

Yes, it was impolite to mis spell Eleanor and I apologise for that. Elenor is the more usual spelling in Wales, in fact my friends daughter is Elenor. It's just what I'm used to. I hadn't actually noticed until you pointed it out. Thank you for that. I will make an effort not to do it again.

Thank you for that .

Apology graciously accepted.  I apologise in return if at times I am a bit sharp.

That sharpness has only occurred since I have been relentlessly bullied .... mainly before your time
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benita on October 31, 2013, 08:31:49 PM
Why all the belittling and nastiness Elenor? Amnesty is not involve in the case. I won't attempt to spell her name again in case you belittle me further, you are aware of which case I mean though.

grammar dear grammar ....arnt the anti's always on about grammar 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on October 31, 2013, 08:34:50 PM
grammar dear grammar ....arnt the anti's always on about grammar 8-)(--)

Nothing wrong with my grammar, it's my spelling that's lacking.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on October 31, 2013, 08:45:20 PM
Quite right.  I am not paranoid.

You obviously have not been reading anything that I say. 8)-)))

Where did I say that I had discussions with the PJ ?  I dont speak the Lingo to begin with.

I have already stated that i am not prepared to share any info that might be ex-judicy

Do you mean 'sub judice'  sadie  ?

Then you have no worries  ... this refers to material which would prejudice court proceedings,  and is only applicable when proceedings are  'active'

Proceedings  don't  become  active until there is an arrest or summons

You are perfectly free,  therefore,  to share any facts your investigations have uncovered   (  unless they are libelous or unfounded, of course ) 

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 08:57:48 PM
You suggested that you has evidence of someone's innocence. I just assumed that you would have let the PJ know. And don't worry, they will have somebody who speaks English or who can read English.

Open minded I have gone back 5 pages and I dont have a clue what you are talking about.  I dont believe I have mentioned having any evidence of anybodies innocence.  TBH, I would have avoided passing anything to Amaral, cos I have never trusted him.  Seems my judgement was right cos he is a convicted perjurer (liar)

And by the way, I didn't ask for details of your evidence, just for a précis of your discussions. Had you have spoken to them then just a "they said they were looking into it" would have sufficed and would not have been ex-judicy. But thank you for confirming that you have not provided the PJ with any evidence. But please don't find it strange that I therefore doubt you have any evidence of their innocence.

I am sorry but I do not intend giving anyone on here a precis of any of my discussions with SY ... or anything that I have found that gets anywhere near the man I think is behind the abductions.  No offence meant but I just aint doing that.

You haven't read what I have posted and your last sentence doesn't make sense becos of that.  Sorry mate.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 09:23:51 PM
You said that Joana Cipriano was almost certainly abducted. And therefore I assumed you believed Leonor and João Cipriano must be innocent. I thought meant you had evidence of their innocence. I guess you don't then. That's fine.

Also I didn't ask of your discussions with SY, only with the PJ with regard to the Cipriano case. But as you have already stated, you have had no discussions whatsoever with the PJ. Again, that's fine. I just wanted clarification that you had no evidence of  Leonor and João Ciprianos innocence and neither had you had any communication with the PJ
My evidence is that the PJ had no case against them.

In order to try and produce evidence they had to resort to Torture.  Brutal torture.  It is NOT evidence when it is tortured out 

NOT EVIDENCE at all.

Because the PJ had to resort to torture means that they did NOT HAVE A CASE.  The Ciprianos are almost certainly innocent, which is what I said before



And I will shout it from the rooftops if you like.

The PJ did NOT have a case against the Ciprianos. 

They had to manufacture "SO-CALLED EVIDENCE" BY TORTURE.

Therefore The Ciprianos are almost certainly innocent
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 09:46:25 PM
Ok, you have clarified this it's only your opinion. That's all I was wanting to know.
You have to open your mind to logic, OP, then you stand a chance of understanding it.

No reason for the PJ to torture if they had a case against Leonor and Joao

Cos they DID NOT have a case they had to try and make some evidence.  What better than a confession or two?

So they tortured them, until they gave them what they wanted.  Everyone breaks under serious torture.



.......  false claim re no evidence removed. .....

Do you condone torture OP ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on October 31, 2013, 09:52:06 PM
You have to open your mind to logic, OP, then you stand a chance of understanding it.

No reason for the PJ to torture if they had a case against Leonor and Joao

Cos they DID NOT have a case they had to try and make some evidence.  What better than a confession or two?

So they tortured them, until they gave them what they wanted.  Everyone breaks under serious torture.

 .......  false claim re no evidence removed. .....

Do you condone torture OP ?


I thought someone has been done for Joanna's kidnapp so why are the mother and her brother still in prison ? Can they sue for wrong arrest ? I can't understand how the brother has to serve all them years
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 31, 2013, 09:52:28 PM
I would have avoided passing anything to Amaral, cos I have never trusted him.  Seems my judgement was right cos he is a convicted perjurer (liar)

I am sorry but I do not intend giving anyone on here a precis of any of my discussions with SY ... or anything that I have found that gets anywhere near the man I think is behind the abductions.  No offence meant but I just aint doing that.

You haven't read what I have posted and your last sentence doesn't make sense becos of that.  Sorry mate.
Well if you've managed to discuss with SY your liar, criminal, perjurer  Amaral obsession etc., why are you losing time and energy on this forum ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on October 31, 2013, 09:54:32 PM
Well if you've managed to discuss with SY your liar, criminal, perjurer  Amaral obsession etc., why are you losing time and energy on this forum ?
It wasn't about Amaral.  It was about what happened to Madeleine after PdL ... and who was behind it.
LOL !

Come dancing recording calls ... sorry   XX
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 01, 2013, 12:47:01 AM
Is there a court transcript of Leonor Cipriano's trial  ?   ...  where she was convicted by a jury of brutally murdering her eight year old daughter  ? 

To those who hysterically insist this woman is innocent  ...  how could you possibly know   unless   you are privy to the evidence that was produced in court,  in it's entirity ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 01, 2013, 01:51:58 AM
Is there a court transcript of Leonor Cipriano's trial  ?   ...  where she was convicted by a jury of brutally murdering her eight year old daughter  ? 

To those who hysterically insist this woman is innocent  ...  how could you possibly know   unless   you are privy to the evidence that was produced in court,  in it's entirity ?

This is the closest we have I understand.

www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 01, 2013, 02:28:34 AM
Of course I don't. The court accepted the evidence though. Until there is

Evidence of their innocence

(See I can shout too  8(>(()
that a court accepts proves their innocence, then they are guilty according to the law. You have already confirmed you have no evidence of their innocence. So that's all I needed to know.
Stop saying such silly things OpenClosedmind.  The envidence is in the situation below

The PJ had no evidence.  If they had then they would NOT have had to torture Leonor, Joao and Leandro.

The whole court case was totally unsafe.  The only so called evidence was what the PJ invented and put the words into the mouths of the people they tortured.

Wonder how you would feel if you were extremely tortured and words put into your mouth that you had to sign for to escape the torture?  Then you were banged up in jail for was it 18 years for a crime that you didn't commit ?


Once again I assert that it is almost certain that Leonor and Joao did not murder Leonors daughter, Joana .  From the evidence I have provided it seems they were stitched up in an unsafe case.  The words of the PJ were taken as gospel.

I wonder how you would feel if it happened to you Openmind?   Dont they matter? 
 Cos they are only peasant types?  Cos you prefer to believe rogue cops?

Sadly, your mind is closed Openmind.  I wonder why?  There has to be a reason  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 01, 2013, 02:33:54 AM
Stop saying such silly things OpenClosedmind.  The envidence is in the situation below

The PJ had no evidence.  If they had then they would NOT have had to torture Leonor, Joao and Leandro.

The whole court case was totally unsafe.  The only so called evidence was what the PJ invented and put the words into the mouths of the people they tortured.

Wonder how you would feel if you were extremely tortured and words put into your mouth that you had to sign for to escape the torture?  Then you were banged up in jail for was it 18 years for a crime that you didn't commit ?


Once again I assert that it is almost certain that Leonor and Joao did not murder Leonors daughter, Joana .  They were stitched up in an unsafe case.  The words of the PJ were taken as gospel.

I wonder how you would feel if it happened to you Openmind?   Dont they matter? 
 Cos they are only peasant types?  Cos you prefer to believe rogue cops?

Sadly, your mind is closed Openmind.  I wonder why?  There has to be a reason  >@@(*&)

Is there a court transcript of Leonor Cipriano's trial  ?  ...  have you read it  ?

If you have not,  then how can you possibly know what  'evidence'  was put before the jury that found this woman guilty of the murder of her eiight year old child  ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Serendipity on November 01, 2013, 03:41:53 AM
Is there a court transcript of Leonor Cipriano's trial  ?   ...  where she was convicted by a jury of brutally murdering her eight year old daughter  ? 

To those who hysterically insist this woman is innocent  ...  how could you possibly know   unless   you are privy to the evidence that was produced in court,  in it's entirity ?

Court transcript here: http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 01, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Ihave no idea what happened in this case. I do not know the evidence, or any details of the trial.

But it is worth considering the large number of people who languished in a similar position in the UK over the last fifty years, now proven to have been framed by the police for one reason or another.

It happens in every justice system.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 01, 2013, 06:25:47 AM
Well all you have to do Luz is show us the official statements quashing Amaral's conviction - and also maybe explain why Amaral himself has made no such claim. 

IIRC LC was found guilty of mis-identifying her torturers.  The fact that torture took place, as established in a court of law, was never in question - only the correct identification of the torturers - which has still to be established.

This is OLD NEWS.

It was in the papers in April I think.

She LIED. My friend lives in Portugal and told me ages ago the witch was condemned to further time, but should have been given life....

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 01, 2013, 06:28:42 AM
This is OLD NEWS.

It was in the papers in April I think.

She LIED. My friend lives in Portugal and told me ages ago the witch was condemned to further time, but should have been given life....

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

Old news, but still of current interest. She was tortures in the Portuguese Justice system; Amaral was convicted of perjury and is still a convicted felon.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 01, 2013, 06:30:36 AM
To be honest I thought the THREAD was to do with Maddy not Cipriano.

She was an evil witch who killed her daughter.

The funny thing about all this is Amaral was not even the lead detective lol.....

The pair were found guilty by a JURY. The brother confessed.

Can we please move on about this sad case. I child was brutally murdered possibly fed to the pigs.

Its obsfucation and dragged out constantly by pro mccanns to try and disgrace AMARAL WHO like i said wasnt even on the lead case.

ALSO Amaral did do something wrong he tried to protect the men who this women had accused.

HE HAS SERVED HIS SENTENCE can we move on........please. LOL...

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:31:51 AM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html


For anyone interested.....

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 01, 2013, 06:33:56 AM
Old news, but still of current interest. She was tortures in the Portuguese Justice system; Amaral was convicted of perjury and is still a convicted felon.
[/quote

It is pointless in arguing with you, as you have your own agenda.

SHE LIED..........................

L.I.E.D.

Can we move on.

As to Amaral he wasnt on the Maddy case for a long time before it was closed, so are you saying EVERYTHING after is also corrupt...

Anyway I am not prepared to discuss this case because its CLOSED, done zilch gone. She got an extra SEVEN MONTHS for lying .....

LYING.

Enough all ready. Tha
nk you.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 01, 2013, 06:42:02 AM
Old news, but still of current interest. She was tortures in the Portuguese Justice system; Amaral was convicted of perjury and is still a convicted felon.
[/quote

It is pointless in arguing with you, as you have your own agenda.

SHE LIED..........................

L.I.E.D.

Can we move on.

As to Amaral he wasnt on the Maddy case for a long time before it was closed, so are you saying EVERYTHING after is also corrupt...

Anyway I am not prepared to discuss this case because its CLOSED, done zilch gone. She got an extra SEVEN MONTHS for lying .....

LYING.

Enough all ready. Tha
nk you.

Birmingham Six Case.

Framed. Beaten in custody. Had to fight an intransigent Justice system (since much reformed). Freed. Exonerated. Compensated.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 09:45:48 AM
Birmingham Six Case.

Framed. Beaten in custody. Had to fight an intransigent Justice system (since much reformed). Freed. Exonerated. Compensated.

I remember it well.   Some of the actions of some of the PJ have reminded me of those times in the UK when a policeman's word was automatically taken as true.    To know that whatever you claim will be believed is a very powerful position to be in - and can be so easily abused - which it was by a certain section of the UK police force. It was eventually recognised - and changes were made.

IMO some police officers  (and certainly not all) in the PJ were still using their  'old' methods  and thought  - just like some of our policemen thought years ago that the very fact they were PJ Officer made them invincible.   The fact that some police officers have been taken to court and found guilty of various crimes is a sign that things are changing for the better in Portugal. 

IMO the Leonor Cipriano case is an example of the police being believed over 'the accused' at every step of the way - and if the Governor of the prison had not taken the stance she did, then what followed -  which included Amaral and others criminal convictions, would never have happened.       

IMO The PJ still have a long way to go.   We have a way to go too and are not perfect by any means, but IMO we are much further ahead of the PJ in trying to do things properly.  For example it's been a while since we automatically took  a policeman's word over that of a member of the public.    And the numerous 'Rough Justice' cases where innocent people, wrongly convicted,  have been released from prison is also proof of that.

Has anyone in Portugal been found to be wrongly convicted of a major crime and subsequently released?   Just curious. 




Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 09:52:34 AM
Why is her brother in prison if it wasn't him
Why would she say she did it if she didn't
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 10:00:30 AM
Why is her brother in prison if it wasn't him
Why would she say she did it if she didn't

I would have thought that was obvious.  She did retract her confession - why do you think she did that?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 01, 2013, 10:03:55 AM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html


For anyone interested.....

Thanks for the links Red, though part of me wishes I hadn't read them!

There was forensic evidence to back up the confession. Strange her body wasn't found though.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 10:18:38 AM
Statewatch article: RefNo# 29207
 
Portugal: Report on torture suffered by Leonor Cipriano
Statewatch News Online, May 2008
SOS Prisões and ACED produced a report that they sent to high-ranking Portuguese authorities with competencies in this field concerning the allegations of torture suffered in September 2004 by Leonor Cipriano at the hands of the judicial police in their offices in Faro. She is currently serving a 16-year and eight-month prison sentence in Odemira women's prison, after she was found guilty of killing her eight-year-old daughter Joana, who she reported as having disappeared. Cipriano maintains her innocence and told the author of the report, lawyer Marcos Aragão Correia, who visited her in prison on 8 April 2008, that there was no evidence to prove the allegations, before describing how she was mistreated for two days in order to induce her to sign a confession of this horrendous crime, which she eventually did. Correia also met the director of Odemira prison, Ana Maria Calado, who confirmed suspicions about Cipriano's treatment, noting that she was "shocked about the conditions in which Cipriano entered the prison". ACED argues that it does not have the means to confirm what the situation in terms of the practice of torture by the police in Portugal may be, but calls on the state to comply with its international obligations.

Leonor Cipriano's account

After accepting to meet Correia, Cipriano denied having played any part in the death of her daughter Joana, who disappeared on the evening of 12 September 2004 after she went out to buy some groceries for her mother in a nearby shop in Figueira, near Portimão, as she often did. Upon seeing that her daughter was taking longer than expected, she went to the shop and was told that Joana had been there, but had already left with a few groceries, after which the Guarda Nacional Republicana was called. On 25 September, Leonor Cipriano was placed in preventive detention in Odemira prison, and was taken by judicial police officers to their offices in Faro on the next day. She was upset by the allegations made against her (that she had killed Joana, cut her up and fed her remains to pigs), which she rejected. Meanwhile, and in the absence of any evidence, the five officers involved became aggressive, shouted and unsuccessfully tried to convince her to confess, after which the torture began. Two glass ashtrays were placed on the floor, and Leonor was forced to kneel on them, without being allowed to get up until she confessed. She showed Correia the scars on her knees, still visible four years later. She was then sat on a chair with a green plastic shopping bag over her head, and officers started striking her on the head with a cardboard tube, causing her haemorrhages resulting in blood descending to her eyes, and her hands were struck when she tried to take the bag off her head. She was told that she would not get out of there until she confessed, and was made to stand, sometimes with the bag on her head and sometimes without it, and punched and kicked on the side of her ribs, repeatedly.

The torture lasted for two days, after which she signed a confession, and she was then returned to prison, where her serious conditions led to her being taken to Odemira health centre. She was told by judicial police officers to tell the doctor that she had thrown herself down a flight of stairs in the Faro judicial police headquarters in a suicide attempt, threatening that if she spoke of any aggression, she would be interrogated again and would not survive. Cipriano said she did as they demanded in their presence, but told the prison officers and director of the prison what had happened once they left. The director ordered photographs to be taken of her, and for a legal-medical report to be drawn up as a result of her poor conditions. Leonor Cipriano's brother João was also reportedly tortured and found guilty of the murder, although the prison to which he was taken did not run the same checks to determine whether he had been subjected to an aggression. After they were both found guilty, he wrote to his sister to apologise for the lies he had been forced to tell about her. When Leonor was invited to identify her aggressors by an investigating magistrate in Évora in 2006, she was only able to identify one official who was present and did nothing to prevent the abuses, possibly because she had had a bag over her head for long periods, or due to the time that had passed, or because not all her torturers were among the six officers placed before her.

The prison director

Correia then spoke to Odemira prison director Ana Maria Calado, who confirmed Leonor Cipriano's account, noting how shocked she was about her conditions, with black marks, haematomae and bruising in her face, mainly around her eyes, her head and ribs, mainly on her sides. She assured that the physical marks clearly indicated a violent aggression and not a fall down some stairs, something the legal-medical report also confirmed. She noted that Cipriano's conditions worsened a week after she was tortured, as the blood that had gathered at the height of her brows was so much that it ended up falling over her eyes, leaving her practically blind for almost a month, and the director regrets not having ordered photographs of this period to be taken. She also said that relations between Cipriano and the prison guards and other prisoners were good, and that she did not believe that she had attempted suicide.

Calado expressed her surprise for a number of facts: a) that the judicial police did not take Cipriano to a health centre in Faro to certify that she had fallen down some stairs; b) that the day of her interrogation was chosen during Calado's week of holidays, when she would never have allowed her to be picked up at 6 a.m. without a formal request by the judicial police; and c) that judicial police officers who arrived from Lisbon to investigate the allegations of torture proposed sharing the blame between the judicial police and prison, something she refused. Correia praised the director, describing her as "courageous" and as prizing "values" more highly than "corporate interests".

Conclusion

The report concludes that the testimony of Leonor Cipriano and of the prison director, as well as other available evidence, are convincing in terms of proving that a crime of torture was committed by officers of the Portuguese judicial police. It condemns the use of "medieval methods" to "extract confessions at all cost, even if they are false", as "inadmissible" and as harmful for Portugal's image as an EU member that defends human rights and has a modern legal order and, as such, argues that these practices must be punished in "exemplary" fashion, or the Portuguese citizenry will lose faith in the judicial system.

The report ends with a message from Leonor Cipriano, who was treated as a monster as a result of the horrible nature of the crime she was accused and found guilty of committing:

"I hope that my daughter Joana appears, not only to be with her again, but also to show the world that it was the gentlemen officers of the judicial police who tortured me and who are the real monsters".

Source:
Relatório sobre Tortura de Leonor Cipriano, 8.4.2008, ACED - Associação Contra a Exclusão pelo Desenvolvimento, SOS Prisoes - report (pdf)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 10:20:25 AM
Thanks for the links Red, though part of me wishes I hadn't read them!

There was forensic evidence to back up the confession. Strange her body wasn't found though.

Did you read the list of PJ claims the court did not accept.  Including the motive of incest?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Mr Moderator on November 01, 2013, 10:54:58 AM
Warning to members in respect of continued false claims that there is no evidence against the Ciprianos.  Anyone knowingly posting FALSE material will have their posting permissions suspended.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 01, 2013, 11:29:56 AM
Thanks Red. Very interesting. Thats the first time I had read any specifics about the court case. Like Cariad I found the forensics especially informative. I seems to me that there is plenty of evidence of both their guilt. The brother of course confessing and implicating his sister (without torture). So it seems to me that while she may have been beaten (which is always wrong obviously) that is only a minor part of the case. Even with out her confession, there is still plenty evidence to prove her guilt in court.

If anyone has additional evidence which shows her innocence (and her brothers) however I'm happy to read it and re-evaluate my view

I followed this case way back when. The forensics were spot on. The brother confessed.

His sister was beaten there is no aruging against that but it was a stitch up, it would appear she was beaten by fellow prisoners, which is what happens in prison to CHILD MURDERERS and there is evidence to all of this.

This case with Cipriano sadly comes out all the time to simply defame Amaral.

Yes he did wrong he was punished and he has served his sentence.

He was never SACKED over it and went on to be the lead detective on other cases.

The women was found guilty by jury, and that should be the end of it.

I honestly cannot see how this case can possibly be any use to sleuthing who took Maddy or what happened to this child. It just detracts from the case at hand. IMHO of course.

The actual feeling about the childs remains was the child was fed to the pigs, sorry but it was in the newspapers at the time. HORRIBLE.

I just think dragging this case out all the time just devalues all the hard work done to put her and her brother into prison for killing daughter/neice, and does NOTHING to solve the case of Madeiline McCann.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 01:29:14 PM
Thanks Red. Very interesting. Thats the first time I had read any specifics about the court case. Like Cariad I found the forensics especially informative. I seems to me that there is plenty of evidence of both their guilt. The brother of course confessing and implicating his sister (without torture). So it seems to me that while she may have been beaten (which is always wrong obviously) that is only a minor part of the case. Even with out her confession, there is still plenty evidence to prove her guilt in court.

If anyone has additional evidence which shows her innocence (and her brothers) however I'm happy to read it and re-evaluate my view


Im interested in this case too. which part of the forensics did you find interesting because the part I read re the DNa said it was not possible to tell whose the blood was...was there any more forensics
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 01:30:10 PM
Thanks for the links Red, though part of me wishes I hadn't read them!

There was forensic evidence to back up the confession. Strange her body wasn't found though.

Could you tell me what the forensic evidence was
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 01, 2013, 01:34:51 PM
To be honest I thought the THREAD was to do with Maddy not Cipriano.

She was an evil witch who killed her daughter.

The funny thing about all this is Amaral was not even the lead detective lol.....

The pair were found guilty by a JURY. The brother confessed.

Can we please move on about this sad case. I child was brutally murdered possibly fed to the pigs.

Its obsfucation and dragged out constantly by pro mccanns to try and disgrace AMARAL WHO like i said wasnt even on the lead case.

ALSO Amaral did do something wrong he tried to protect the men who this women had accused.

HE HAS SERVED HIS SENTENCE can we move on........please. LOL...

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

I thought there were no juries in Portugal- I thought they had a Judge and assessor system.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 01, 2013, 01:40:32 PM
Perhaps a different sub-forum could be created on this forum to disassociate it from the McCann case?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 01, 2013, 01:41:21 PM
I thought there were no juries in Portugal- I thought they had a Judge and assessor system.

Although very rare, some cases are judged by juries if the defendents make the request.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 01, 2013, 01:43:29 PM
Although very rare, some cases are judged by juries if the defendents make the request.

Or does it depend on the maximum sentence?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 01, 2013, 01:50:06 PM
Perhaps a different sub-forum could be created on this forum to disassociate it from the McCann case?

I wish someone would bury it lol. Its over done a completed case not even current.

It just gets dragged up to make Amaral look a prat, and the PJs thugs. THATS it really. I dont care if i get slapped wrist for saying it but its a totally waste of energy and time lol...it does NOTHING to help find maddy.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 01, 2013, 03:57:19 PM
This is OLD NEWS.

It was in the papers in April I think.

She LIED. My friend lives in Portugal and told me ages ago the witch was condemned to further time, but should have been given life....

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html
THE WITCH !

A poor peasant- type woman who was tortured into confessions.  Seriously tortured so that she lost her sight for a month

How could you be so uncouth.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: BigFatBlonde on November 01, 2013, 04:06:52 PM
THE WITCH !

A poor peasant- type woman who was tortured into confessions.  Seriously tortured so that she lost her sight for a month

How could you be so uncouth.

she's a convicted child murderer Sadie and doesn't deserve the support of anyone. She was not convicted on the sole basis of her confession, there was other incriminating evidence and she was found guilty in a court of law.

By all means have a bash at Amaral/PJ if that is what you want to do - but trying to defend this woman is irrelevant to the hunt for Madeleine and an insult to the memory of the child she killed.

N
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 01, 2013, 04:27:45 PM
Thanks for the links Red, though part of me wishes I hadn't read them!

There was forensic evidence to back up the confession. Strange her body wasn't found though.
I can find no forensic evedence.  Please can you point to it.

Thank you Cariad
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 01, 2013, 04:48:36 PM
I can find no forensic evedence.  Please can you point to it.

Thank you Cariad

It was the third link in Red's post, this one here,

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

I know it has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of the suspects what so ever, but one of the things that really stuck out was that Joana had to walk to school on her own on her first day, got lost and was late!

In the grand scheme of what happened to her, it's really a very minor point, but I have to admit that it almost brought me to tears.

She was born the same year as my elder son. I remember taking him to school for his first day. I remember how nervous we both were and what an important step it was in his life. His Dad took the morning off and we both walked him. I dunno, as I said, it hardly scores high on the atrocities inflicted on her, but it just broke my heart.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 05:08:09 PM
BB is Leonor Cipriano.   CC is her daughter.    AA is Joao Cipriano
 
9. 2. Facts considered NOT to be proved:

1- that the arguida BB, throughout her life, failed to provide her children with basic care, mistreating them;

2- that HH, arguida BB’s son, was helped by neighbours;

3- that the arguida BB voted her daughter CC to disinterest and overloaded her with work, forcing her to carry out the domestic chores that she should perform but did not;

4- that the arguida BB abandoned CC, just like she had done with her other children;

5- that the second time when the arguida BB handed CC to her father, the minor was approximately aged 3;

6- that minor CC was a source of fighting between her mother, arguida BB, and the stepfather II, up to the point where she was threatened by them to be expelled from home;

7- that at around 8 p.m. on that 12th of September, when the two arguidos were alone, they decided to maintain sexual intercourse between them, being that BB’s minor children were no impediment for that action, because they were asleep in a room, but CC could not watch such actions;

8- that when CC ledt the house, the arguidos started to copulate with each other, on the living room sofa, and that they were still having intercourse when the minor returned home;

9- that upon seeing what her mother and uncle were doing, minor CC said that she was going to tell her stepfather that they were “doing dirty things”, and tried to leave the house;

10- that the arguidos got up from the sofa, heading towards CC, attempting to prevent her from denouncing what she had witnessed to II;

11- that CC hit the wall’s corner with the left side of her head and that said wall was the one that is located near the main door;

12- that CC tried to flee from the house, then being pulled inside by arguido AA;

13- that CC left hand prints and facial imprints on the walls, either on the outside or on the inside, near the main door;

14- that the arguidos placed the minor’s body, wrapped up in a duvet cover, in the corner of one of the bedrooms in the house, in a spot that was not visible to anyone who might eventually enter it, for later to decide what destiny it would be given;

15- that arguida BB used detergent and bleach to wash the wall and the floor where blood spots from CC were;

16- that arguido AA had a beer with II and MM, at the "Pastelaria ...", in order to further delay their return home;

17- that the arguidos thought about placing the minor’s body in a sanitary cess-pit that was located near the house, for which arguido AA went to the location, yet verified that such would not be possible because said pit’s lid was partially cemented, which he informed arguida BB about;

18- that the knife with which the arguidos cut the minor’s body had a black handle;

19- that the arguidos placed CC’s body on the living room floor, on a blanket;

20- that the arguidos knotted the opening of the bags that contained the torso and the legs;

21- that the arguidos effectively placed the three bags inside the tree compartments of the deep freezer;

22- that the arguidos changed the clothes that they were wearing and that arguida BB, once again that night, washed the blood that had remained on the floor;

23- that on the night of the 12th of September arguida BB invoked CC’s ‘disappearance’ to the persons that she met (with an exception for II, MM and NN whom she told about said ‘disappearance’);

24- that the bag which the arguidos were carrying late in the night of the 13th of September contained the instruments that had been used to cut the minor;

25- that meanwhile, ticks started to appear in the house, due to the aforementioned activity;

26- that already after her arrest, arguida BB did, several times, impute co-arguido AA with the full responsibility for the facts, also that she imputed MM with it as well, apart from having mentioned that the body was placed inside a car that was destined to be pressed in Spain, or on several locations that she indicated throughout time;

27- that arguido AA, during the first interrogation, indicated that CC’s body is beneath a bridge that connects Figueira with Mexilhoeira, on the opposite side of the location that had initially been indicated, and that, afterwards, he indicated a brother of his as having transported the body;

28- that the arguidos acted merely with the purpose to preven the minor from denunciating what she had seen, to her stepfather;

29- that the minor CC depended upon arguido AA."



source: Supreme Court of Justice - ruling SJ200604200003635, 20.04.200
 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 05:31:24 PM
IMO the amount of facts thrown out by the court as NOT proved is huge and even includes the MOTIVE!   How can you find someone guilty when you cannot establish a motive for the crime?

I'm gobsmacked that she was found guilty - and once the courts had established that LC had been tortured by Police officers,  then surely at least a re-trial would have been in order.

Wasn't the DNA 'evidence' lost somewhere along the line?






Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
Forensics aren't just DNA. The forensics showed that there was blood everywhere in the flat and those locations matched the locations identified by the defendant. Basically a spot of blood in the freezer means little, blood all over the crime scene means much more.

Its worth pointing out that forensics are not the sole evidence used to convict but they form but part of the whole case. Forensics matched with confession, witness statements, records of movements and profiling of the accused, amongst other things, are all used in court. Therefore DNA forensics is not always needed to convict.
So there was no match and a lot of the blood was animal blood so the forensics don't sound that impressive at all...must be more evidence obviously..just surprised that you said you were impressed with the forensics
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 05:54:57 PM
9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

a) the arguidos are siblings;

b) the arguido AA [João Cipriano] has never held a regular job or residence, living inside a vehicle or at his siblings’ house, surviving on occasional jobs that he performed on diverse locations;

c) the arguido AA manifests despise for human life – a result of a poor social adjustment and affective coldness – and has anti-social/psychopathic tendencies with a difficulty to control his impulses, which leads him to be aggressive, trying to solve conflicts through said aggressiveness, feeling no remorse for the consequences of the actions that he thus performs, despising other people’s rights, wishes or feelings;

d) through a ruling that has been validated in court, and given on 10.11.1993, arguido AA was condemned to a 4-year prison sentence over the practice, on 2.10.1992, of a crime of attempted homicide, (…). Said ruling includes that the arguido was convinced, by a third party that lived with one of the arguido’s sisters (GG) to take the life of another person who had left him blind, in exchange for 20.000$00 and a motorbike (…);

e) the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulties in expressing frustration, while her socialisation was marked by immature, superficial and narcissistic interpersonal relationships, where characteristics of manipulation (to satisfy her own needs) and aggressiveness (of mainly sadistic tonality) are stand out, while in her personality the absence of empathy and the insensibility are salient, leading to the arguida’s despise for other people’s rights, needs and sentiments, directing her aggressiveness towards them, with a weak capacity to feel remorse. She possesses a borderline personality with anti-social/psychopathic, narcissistic and schizoid traits;

f) the arguida BB, who has six children from five relationships, has been showing some lack of interest in her elder children, throughout her life;

g) concerning her eldest daughter, EE, who presently lives with her father and grandmother in Olhão, she left her there at the age of 11 months, never cared for her again, and didn’t ask about her, for 14 years;

h) her second child, FF, who lived with his paternal grandmother and presently lives with a paternal aunt, in Messines, was also left by her to the father, and she never cared for him again;

i) the fourth child, HH, who presently lives with his father in Porches, was left home alone by the arguido BB at the age of 7 months, buckled to his chair, which is how he was found by neighbours who perceived the situation;

j) at that time, arguida BB started living with II [Leandro Silva], a relationship that produced two children, JJ and KK;

l) the third child that she bore was CC [Joana], who was born on 31.05.1996, a daughter of LL;

m) minor CC, in September 2004, was aged eight, being thin and measuring between 1,20 and 1,40 metres; (2)

n) minor CC was sometimes sad;

o) the arguida BB did not exercise any professional activity;

p) when the arguida was living with partner II, minor CC helped her mother with some home chores, as she sometimes helped to clean the house, took care of her younger siblings and went shopping;

q) before arguida BB moved in with her partner II, she wanted to stop having CC under her care, and left her, at the age of 5 months, with her father, LL – with whom she had no relationship since the beginning of the pregnancy – who ended up ‘returning’ her 2 days later, and later, she once more handed her over to the father, who didn’t want to keep her;

r) in September 2003, arguida BB left CC under the care of a couple of persons with alcoholism problems and with a bed-ridden child that had an infecto-contagious illness, in a house with no conditions whatsoever, for 2 or 3 weeks;

s) on the first day of school for minor CC at the Primary School in Figueira, in the school year of 2003/2004, arguida BB didn’t walk the minor to school, and CC arrived with a neighbour, whom she asked for help because she couldn’t find the way;

t) on another occasion, the same neighbour took the minor to hospital, at a moment when she was visibly ill with a strong cough;

u) in the early morning of the 12th of September 2004, arguido AA, after a row with his brother UU, went to the arguida BB’s house, taking his clothes with him, and during the 12th he stayed in that house, which is located in the village of Figueira – Mexilhoeira Grande, in the area of Portimão;

v) in the late afternoon of the 12th, his sister, arguida BB, and her children, CC, JJ and KK, returned home;

x) at around 8 p.m. on that 12th of September, arguida BB sent CC to buy a package of milk and two cans of food, at a shop called “Pastelaria…”, in Figueira, at a distance of approximately 420 metres from the house;

z) the living room of the house where arguida BB lived, is located immediately after the main door and the door that offers access to the street has a handle on the outside that allows for direct entry into the residence;

aa) minor CC returned home from “Pastelaria…”, where she had bought the aforementioned food products;

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so;

ag) and, as they knew that arguida BB’s partner – II – and his friend, MM, were about to arrive at home, and could discover what had happened there if they arrived before the traces were cleaned, at around 9.30 p.m. arguido AA left, headed towards “Pastelaria …”, where he met II and MM, who were already there, and whom he told that minor CC had not returned home;

ah) when the three of them returned home, arguida BB had already cleaned the existing blood marks, and equally mentioned that minor CC hadn’t returned home after doing the shopping;

ai) confronted with what the arguida was saying, II and MM decided to go out and look for the minor, while the arguidos remained at home;

aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer that existed in the living room;

al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;

am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

ao) the arguidos did not place the shoes that the minor was wearing, inside the bags, and all the pairs of shoes that the minor was using that summer, stayed inside the house;

ap) as the minor had already been dead for approximately two hours, not a lot of blood left the body;

aq) between 10.30 and 11 p.m., the arguida BB joined her partner II and MM, to whom she reiterated that CC was missing, and only at that point in time did she go to "Pastelaria ....." and asked the owner (NN) if CC had been there, then saying that she had disappeared;

ar) nevertheless, the arguida didn’t inform the police authorities about anything, despite there being GNR officers on duty in Figueira, because a popular fair called “Mussels Party” was taking place, and it was the third person (NN) that did it by telephone, at around 0.44 a.m. on the 13th of September, when she heard that the arguida hadn’t done so yet, and it was following said telephone call that the arguida ended up talking to GNR officers near the church in Figueira;

as) at that point in time the arguida said she hadn’t phoned because she had no credit on her mobile phone;

at) later on, at around 2 a.m., the arguida bought cakes in a pastry shop in the same village;

au) on the morning of the 13th, the arguida BB went to the GNR Station, in Portimão, accompanied by arguido AA, where she filed a complaint over the disappearance of CC;

av) and through the intervention of third parties, relatives of her partner II, the alleged ‘disappearance’ truly started to be publicised, with the distribution of photographs of CC, because until then the arguidos had intended not to alert the authorities;

ax) at the end of the night of the 13th, the arguidos left the house together, carrying a bag;

az) the arguido AA remained at the arguida BB’s house until the 14th, a time lapse during which the two arguidos, in a manner that was not possible to determine, transported CC’s mortal remains to an unknown location, thus fulfilling the intention that they had proposed themselves to – to prevent the finding of said mortal remains – and those remains have not been found to this day, just as the cutting instruments, which the arguidos have hidden in an unknown location, haven’t been found;

aaa) the arguida BB gave interviews to the media, trying to make believe that the minor had in fact disappeared, a version that she maintained in front of many of the people who were interested in the minor’s destiny and questioned her about the matter;

aab) during those interviews about the case, arguida BB sometimes mentioned her daughter in the past tense and wore a black blouse;

aac) ticks, namely so-called “little leads” (ticks in their early adult phase) have receptors for chemical stimuli that are associated to temperature, which allow for them to detect the existence of blood-specific chemical compounds;

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

aae) through an indication from arguida BB, Polícia Judiciária agents went to the house of arguida BB’ eldest daughter’s paternal grandmother (EE), in Olhão, searching for CC, and also investigated if an individual of Moroccan nationality had taken the minor;

aaf) when presented to a clinical psychologist, within an examination that was performed within the process’ scope, arguida BB mentioned the existence of neighbours of Brazilian nationality who might have taken CC with them, because they had two “good” cars and left the area on the same date on which the minor had “disappeared”;

aag) following indications from arguido AA, PJ agents searched for CC’s body in a brown earth embankment that is located near the road that accesses Mexilhoeira, then on other locations nearby, further away in Poço Barreto, in a wrecked car, in Silves, under the Arade River bridge;

aah) the arguidos managed to disturb the investigative activities and prevented the mortal remains of minor CC, whose life they took, from being located;

aai) the aforementioned activities were carried out by the arguidos under concerted efforts and intentions, in a deliberate, free and conscious manner, fully knowing that those behaviours are punished by law;

aaj) therefore as far as taking the life of CC, their direct relative (daughter and niece), is concerned, which they did by employing force, taking advantage of the fact that she couldn’t defend herself (taking into account her age and physical built) and using force in the full knowledge that, considering the vital area in which her body was hit (the head) repeatedly and violently, prompting the minor’s head to hit the wall, they could take her life away from her, a consequence which they accepted, still not ceasing their activity;

aal) not seeing as an obstacle the circumstance that the minor depended on her mother and was a direct relative of both, and should be defended instead of victimised by them;

aam) in the same deliberate, free and conscious manner, and knowing that such behaviour is punishable, they carried out the above described action of cutting CC’s body, demonstrating total insensibility, knowing full well that, in this manner, they offended the communitarian respect that is due to the dead, acting with the purpose of CC’s body never being found again, hiding it in a location that is not appropriated for the effect, in order to try to avoid responsibility for her death;

aan) the arguida BB has no criminal record;

aao) the arguido AA, apart from the above mentioned condemnation under item e), was further condemned, in 1995, under a sentence that has been validated in court, for the practise of a qualified theft, to a penalty, accumulating with the penalty that was imputed over the crime of attempted murder, of 3 years and 8 months in prison; in 2001, over the practise of a crime of illegal driving of a vehicle, he was condemned, under a sentence that has been validated in court, to a penalty of 90 days of fine; and in 2003, over the practise of a crime of illegal driving of a vehicle, he was condemned, under a sentence that has been validated in court, to a penalty of 6 months and 15 days in prison, which was suspended in its execution, in exchange for the compliance with conditions, a suspension that was later revoked;

aap) in terms of schooling, the arguida BB completed 3rd grade, never exercised any profession and married at the age of 18;

aaq) in terms of schooling, the arguido AA completed 4th grade and has worked since he left school, but always exercising undifferentiated services and without any contract;

aas) the arguidos were born within a large family (the parents and 9 siblings), where the father’s alcoholic habits and the financial difficulties stood out.

From the same document. I was going to highlight all of the points I though of importance but theres are just so many. But it has been proven that CC was beaten and dies and her body disposed of.


The following was supposed to have been proved..but the following cant be true as the dna report said that it was impossible to say who the blood came from

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;



 So is someone telling lies
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 05:56:55 PM
I didn't say I was impressed with them, I said they were informative.

.  I can see why you weren't impressed with them
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:00:16 PM

The following was supposed to have been proved..but the following cant be true as the dna report said that it was impossible to say who the blood came from

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;



 So is someone telling lies

Amazing, so the scene is like some bloodbath, a child is missing, but the blood cant be hers,oh no, despite the pair of them describing how it was, ok Davel, on your head may it be.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:12:39 PM

I thought someone has been done for Joanna's kidnapp so why are the mother and her brother still in prison ? Can they sue for wrong arrest ? I can't understand how the brother has to serve all them years

Just seen this...


??

Who? Are you confusing this case with some other?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:18:27 PM
Amazing, so the scene is like some bloodbath, a child is missing, but the blood cant be hers,oh no, despite the pair of them describing how it was, ok Davel, on your head may it be.

 the scene was not like a   bloodbath at all...where did you dream that one up from
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:24:16 PM
the scene was not like a   bloodbath at all...where did you dream that one up from

the place may not have been dripping in it but you get the picture!!!! So sorry for superlative language. Attempting to exonerate convicted child killers does rile me.....I suppose you think its time Baby Ps mother was let out of jail too,after five yrs,  for her allowing her boyfriend to beat her baby black and blue and kill him....well alledgedly she has been.....



ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so;
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:25:13 PM
I didn't say I wasn't impressed with them. Perhaps you should try focusing on what I wrote rather than what you assume i wrote.
 

From what you have written, from what has been posted on this thread, from what I have read elsewhere and due to the fact she was brutally tortured by the PJ , I feel it is possible that her conviction is unsafe
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:26:42 PM
 

From what you have written, from what has been posted on this thread, from what I have read elsewhere and due to the fact she was brutally tortured by the PJ , I feel it is possible that her conviction is unsafe

Did the courts rule she was beaten BY the PJ? or just that she had been beaten?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 06:27:13 PM
Just seen this...


??

Who? Are you confusing this case with some other?


Last week someone posted a link about her case
It said about someone being charged with her abduction

I did look tonight online but couldn't find anything
When I was asking on her about it last week someone snapped at me and said
Someone has been charged now move on blah blah .

So basically Joanna's case is still the same ???
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:30:16 PM
the place may not have been dripping in it but you get the picture!!!! So sorry for superlative language. Attempting to exonerate convicted child killers does rile me.....I suppose you think its time Baby Ps mother was let out of jail too,after five yrs,  for her allowing her boyfriend to beat her baby black and blue and kill him....well alledgedly she has been.....



ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so;

You are starting to rant now...I like the truth..whats wrong with that. The place was not dripping with blood you obviously haven't read anything re the trial...as I have said ..how did they know the blood found was Joannas...there was no dna ID ..
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:31:02 PM
Did the courts rule she was beaten BY the PJ? or just that she had been beaten?

beaten by the pj
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:32:33 PM
The only evidence seems to be confessions unless someone has more information ..and guess what...there is no proof that Joanna is dead
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:33:22 PM

Last week someone posted a link about her case
It said about someone being charged with her abduction

I did look tonight online but couldn't find anything
When I was asking on her about it last week someone snapped at me and said
Someone has been charged now move on blah blah .

So basically Joanna's case is still the same ???

I dont think anyone posted that anyone other than JC and her brother were charged and convicted, probably just crossed wires.....youre not thnking of JCs common law husband are you? I cant think off the top of my head if he was involved or not but he went to prison I think too, I may be wrong....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 06:37:27 PM
I dont think anyone posted that anyone other than JC and her brother were charged and convicted, probably just crossed wires.....youre not thnking of JCs common law husband are you? I cant think off the top of my head if he was involved or not but he went to prison I think too, I may be wrong....

It probably was ,
That's why I keep asking why is she and her brother still in prison if they didn't do it .
So the case is still the same apart from the latest news regarding the mother getting longer sentance
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:38:29 PM
You are starting to rant now...I like the truth..whats wrong with that. The place was not dripping with blood you obviously haven't read anything re the trial...as I have said ..how did they know the blood found was Joannas...there was no dna ID ..

thats what I said.....and please dont decree that I havent read anything....ta muchly

Whose blood was it then all over the floors walls  light switch etc? Pub brawl fight taken home?

But then the pair of them told the police exactly what happened and where, and it matched the locations, ok Davel....keep dreaming...fact is she they are  both convicted of murder...and your only reason to want them to be innocent is to attack Amaral to somehow whiten the mccanns reputation, by blackening his, doesnt work that way chum, never has, never will, lost mission
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 06:42:26 PM
Did the courts rule she was beaten BY the PJ? or just that she had been beaten?

from Post NO 77 on this thread.
quote
The report concludes that the testimony of Leonor Cipriano and of the prison director, as well as other available evidence, are convincing in terms of proving that a crime of torture was committed by officers of the Portuguese judicial police. It condemns the use of "medieval methods" to "extract confessions at all cost, even if they are false", as "inadmissible" and as harmful for Portugal's image as an EU member that defends human rights and has a modern legal order and, as such, argues that these practices must be punished in "exemplary" fashion, or the Portuguese citizenry will lose faith in the judicial system.





Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:43:13 PM
It probably was ,
That's why I keep asking why is she and her brother still in prison if they didn't do it .
So the case is still the same apart from the latest news regarding the mother getting longer sentance

They are still in prison because they are serving their sentences because the legal system believes they did do it....lets not forget all their appeals to date  have failed.....justice systems do get it wrong sometimes...wheres the evidence they have presented that they are innocent though? Wheres any sightings of the little girl? Why did the uncle testify he put her body in a car and got it scrapoed and demolished? No need to reply.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:44:18 PM
thats what I said.....and please dont decree that I havent read anything....ta muchly

Whose blood was it then all over the floors walls  light switch etc? Pub brawl fight taken home?

But then the pair of them told the police exactly what happened and where, and it matched the locations, ok Davel....keep dreaming...fact is she they are  both convicted of murder...and your only reason to want them to be innocent is to attack Amaral to somehow whiten the mccanns reputation, by blackening his, doesnt work that way chum, never has, never will, lost mission

You are dreaming again..if thir was that amount of blood a simple dna test would have identified it..what happened..so both of them told the police...after the beating..is that all the evidence..it seems it is
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:46:31 PM
from Post NO 77 on this thread.
quote
The report concludes that the testimony of Leonor Cipriano and of the prison director, as well as other available evidence, are convincing in terms of proving that a crime of torture was committed by officers of the Portuguese judicial police. It condemns the use of "medieval methods" to "extract confessions at all cost, even if they are false", as "inadmissible" and as harmful for Portugal's image as an EU member that defends human rights and has a modern legal order and, as such, argues that these practices must be punished in "exemplary" fashion, or the Portuguese citizenry will lose faith in the judicial system.

Is that a court ruling?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 06:47:02 PM
Wasn't there pigs blood in the freezer ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:47:26 PM
You are dreaming again..if thir was that amount of blood a simple dna test would have identified it..what happened..so both of them told the police...after the beating..is that all the evidence..it seems it is

I will leave you to dream as you are seriously boring me now.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:47:51 PM
They are still in prison because they are serving their sentences because the legal system believes they did do it....lets not forget all their appeals to date  have failed.....justice systems do get it wrong sometimes...wheres the evidence they have presented that they are innocent though? Wheres any sightings of the little girl? Why did the uncle testify he put her body in a car and got it scrapoed and demolished? No need to reply.

 They  were found guilty in a court of law...just like Barry George and the Birmingham 6
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 06:49:29 PM
Wasn't there pigs blood in the freezer ?

 that evidence wasn't necessary as they had their confessions
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483941/Witness-Seeing-Madeleine-Morocco-sent-shivers-spine.html


Do you not think this girl looks like joana ? (also who photoshopped Madeleine on the back of he/she)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484120/Third-Madeleine-Morocco-sighting-Im-convinced-says-woman.html

Bushras cows lick is on wrong side
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Wasn't there pigs blood in the freezer ?

Err NO


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

So read down
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:52:59 PM
They  were found guilty in a court of law...just like Barry George and the Birmingham 6

They got acquitted  though didnt they?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:55:07 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483941/Witness-Seeing-Madeleine-Morocco-sent-shivers-spine.html


Do you not think this girl looks like joana ? (also who photoshopped Madeleine on the back of he/she)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484120/Third-Madeleine-Morocco-sighting-Im-convinced-says-woman.html

Bushras cows lick is on wrong side

Er NO.......Id stop reading [ censored word ] blogs if I were you..btw this tourits was so shocked and snapped Madeleine she didnt pass her photo on to anyone for a month, ok then, next...Thnk Im done here though..enough wasted time
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 06:55:27 PM
Err NO


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

So read down

I personally don't trust miss morais site
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 06:59:19 PM
I personally don't trust miss morais site
She translated the court judgement, unless you can do a better job or get someone else to do it, and show she has mistranslated anything, especially on Purpose as you suggest,  best stop the accusations and whining.......hey? Out of here..........
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2013, 07:01:55 PM
They are still in prison because they are serving their sentences because the legal system believes they did do it....lets not forget all their appeals to date  have failed.....justice systems do get it wrong sometimes...wheres the evidence they have presented that they are innocent though? Wheres any sightings of the little girl? Why did the uncle testify he put her body in a car and got it scrapoed and demolished? No need to reply.

Do you think they would still be in prison in this country - once torture had been established?   I don't.

People will say anything and agree to anything under torture - just to make it stop. 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:09:16 PM
She translated the court judgement, unless you can do a better job or get someone else to do it, and show she has mistranslated anything, especially on Purpose as you suggest,  best stop the accusations and whining.......hey? Out of here..........


I personally don't trust miss morais site



She translated the court judgement, unless you can do a better job or get someone else to do it, and show she has mistranslated anything, especially on Purpose as you suggest,  best stop the accusations and whining.......hey? Out of here..........


Did I suggest lol
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:21:21 PM
Do you think they would still be in prison in this country - once torture had been established?   I don't.

People will say anything and agree to anything under torture - just to make it stop.

I see you failed to answer my question to you a few posts behind.....one step at a time
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:23:22 PM

I personally don't trust miss morais site



She translated the court judgement, unless you can do a better job or get someone else to do it, and show she has mistranslated anything, especially on Purpose as you suggest,  best stop the accusations and whining.......hey? Out of here..........


Did I suggest lol
Whatever you thought you were doing you need to prove the translation of the court judgements is false before hurling aspersions...zzzzbut you cant do end of here...

Edit spello
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:30:35 PM
Whatever you thought you were doing you need to prove the translation of the court judgements is false before hurling aspersions...zzzzbut you cant ao end of here


There you go again I've not mentioned her translation ,you have twice
I said I don't trust her site
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 07:33:23 PM
They got acquitted  though didnt they?

eventually...the point is they were found guilty in a court of law
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:33:44 PM

There you go again I've not mentioned her translation ,you have twice
I said I don't trust her site

no you said it twice....your saying so in relation to the specific  topic under discussion here strongly suggests the Links/translations we are talking about are what you are alluding to......if not why post it here, start a new thread, i dont trust joana morais site and be done with it!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:35:25 PM
eventually...the point is they were found guilty in a court of law

and Leonors appeals all failed.....how many appeals did Barry George, Birmingham Six have to go through? how many did she?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 01, 2013, 07:38:07 PM
I personally don't trust miss morais site

It is the most biased against the Mccanns site in cyberspace. I really hope  links to it aren't going to be allowed here.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on November 01, 2013, 07:40:31 PM
It is the most biased against the Mccanns site in cyberspace. I really hope  links to it aren't going to be allowed here.

I can think  immediately of 3 posters on here that will not agree with you.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:41:35 PM
It is the most biased against the Mccanns site in cyberspace. I really hope  links to it aren't going to be allowed here.

factual articles and information   / translations are necessary for all whether you like the source or not........if you dont like her site YOU go translate and provide us with the info or provide a different one instead of bleating....your choice......where there is plain info imparted and no opinion YOU have  NO argument.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 01, 2013, 07:42:03 PM
It is the most biased against the Mccanns site in cyberspace. I really hope  links to it aren't going to be allowed here.

Are you in favour of book burning by any chance?
Because you seem very much in favour of censorship.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 01, 2013, 07:46:10 PM
Not censorship, outright lies and bias.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:46:16 PM
It is the most biased against the Mccanns site in cyberspace. I really hope  links to it aren't going to be allowed here.


It's very very very one sided ,people use her as gospel
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:47:21 PM
Not censorship, outright lies and bias.

list the lies then so we can all read them.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 01, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
list the lies then so we can all read them.....

List them yourself.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:51:21 PM

It's very very very one sided ,people use her as gospel

Im being forced to be a parrot tonight for some reason, factual articles and translations and imparting of facts to every , often ungrateful, tom dick kazzy and harry is not one sided....its called impartial journalism.......the journalists own personal thoughts are often viewed inthe comments sextions but NOT in the articles, try and understand this basic concept.......bbl
 8((()*/

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:52:08 PM
List them yourself.

Youre the accuser, onus is on YOU
 8((()*/

Thats at least the fourth time in a week you cant or refuse to  back up what you assert....interesting.....vis a vis your credibility.......oops
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:53:58 PM
Back to topic

Where can I read the DNA results from the fridge

Official ones like mccanns files/ reports
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 01, 2013, 07:54:51 PM
Youre the accuser, onus is on YOU
 8((()*/

Thats at least the fourth time in a week you cant or refuse to  back up what you assert....interesting.....vis a vis your credibility.......oops

Ooooops you keeping count? Sad really isn't it? Bullying if it mattered. Morais isn't an "anti" then?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:54:57 PM
Don't forget about the Guildford Four & the Maguire Seven !

thanks, I will have to look those up....havent followed high  profile cases all my life......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:56:43 PM
Im being forced to be a parrot tonight for some reason, factual articles and translations and imparting of facts to every , often ungrateful, tom dick kazzy and harry is not one sided....its called impartial journalism.......the journalists own personal thoughts are often viewed inthe comments sextions but NOT in the articles, try and understand this basic concept.......bbl
 8((()*/



So if I started a thread about who saw Murat the night Madeleine went and posted statements that would be ok ? Or the news about Portugal being a haven for pedos .etc that would be ok
No it's not is it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 07:57:00 PM
Ooooops you keeping count? Sad really isn't it? Bullying if it mattered. Morais isn't an "anti" then?

remembering that you cant back up your arguments when i challenged you is hardly keeping count or bullying....just very memorable,from such a vehement poster as well, get over yourself!!!
 @)(++(*


BBL

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 07:58:44 PM
Back to topic

Where can I read the DNA results from the fridge

Official ones like mccanns files/ reports
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: imustpointout on November 01, 2013, 08:00:12 PM
remembering that you cant back up your arguments when i challenged you is hardly keeping count or bullying....just very memorable,from such a vehement poster as well, get over yourself!!!
 @)(++(*


BBL

oh and you nearly beat the speed posting record then
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 01, 2013, 08:00:38 PM
remembering that you cant back up your arguments when i challenged you is hardly keeping count or bullying....just very memorable,from such a vehement poster as well, get over yourself!!!
 @)(++(*


BBL

I actually can't be bothered when you demand. You kept count, fourth time? It is indeed bullying.

Don't hurry back on my account.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 08:12:22 PM
Don't forget about the Guildford Four & the Maguire Seven !

British justice is open to challenge and admits mistakes... I am wondering if miscarriages of justice ever occur in Portugal...does anyone have any information
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 01, 2013, 08:20:09 PM
I wonder why Morais has never posted the court papers for 21/12/04?

DATA DA DILIGENCE 21/12/04         HORA: 14.30 horas
MAGISTRADO DO MINISTERIO PUBLICO: DR ANRONIO VENTINHAS
OFFICIAL DE JUSTICA: Antonio Francisco - Tecnico de Justica.

Perhaps she doesn't have them 8(>((
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 08:23:44 PM
Back to topic

Where can I read the DNA results from the fridge

Official ones like mccanns files/ reports

There were no dna results from anywhere so how the court can claim it has been proved that the this is joannas blood was found is very questionable. it makes you then question all the other claims they say were proved. in fact as I have said there is no proof Joanna is dead. The  evidence used to convict seems entirely to be the beaten out confessions... although I am happy to be corrected... as yet no one has
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 01, 2013, 08:29:05 PM
There were no dna results from anywhere so how the court can claim it has been proved that the this is joannas blood was found is very questionable. it makes you then question all the other claims they say were proved. in fact as I have said there is no proof Joanna is dead. The  evidence used to convict seems entirely to be the beaten out confessions... although I am happy to be corrected... as yet no one has

I remember reading about pigs blood being in the fridge .
Does anyone know where the 50.000 come from which was put in to someone's account
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 08:43:24 PM
I remember reading about pigs blood being in the fridge .
Does anyone know where the 50.000 come from which was put in to someone's account

I think it was to pay for the fridge
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 01, 2013, 08:46:51 PM
Miscarriages of justice happen in every jurisdiction davel, justice is rightly blind, unfortunately it can also be (sometimes) corrupted !

I'm sure they happen in Portugal but I wonder how many people get them overturned. We have lots of high profile cases in the UK I just wonder how many there are in Portugal..
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 01, 2013, 10:17:43 PM
I actually can't be bothered when you demand. You kept count, fourth time? It is indeed bullying.

Don't hurry back on my account.
As If I would LOL
Stop accusing and crying wolf about bullying......is that the best argument you have???.for your own inadeqacies? You posted something as a FACT...indeed that was your exact word, i asked you...note...asked...not  demanded...for your evidence FOR that FACT,,,, you couldnt supply it..andfurther got so indignant at being asked...and do notee its against forum rules to post things as fact without a back up link,,,,.....if thats what you  call bullying then thats pretty poor and sad....,,perhaps you can now move yourself to the thread called abductions and show YOUR evidence that Carolina was a FACT, as you STATED, of any abduction, ta...for onlookers convo was on page  1 or so of this thread......post 13

Quiet in here, so off to watch some box nite luv...And if you come across the  evidence for the fact of carolina do post it.... If not next time dont state anything as fact unless u can back it up as fact and also then dont spit dummy out for being asked and being incapable of doing so.....In other words you are going to post about things you dont have a clue  about dont be so aggressive  LOL...makes you look utterly stupid..not forgetting many of your posts are soooo bullying and emotionally blackmailing and pontificating against other members here, how disgraceful, but you cant see past your mirror reflection i suppose....

 @)(++(*

Roll eyes
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 01, 2013, 10:53:47 PM
I'm sure they happen in Portugal but I wonder how many people get them overturned. We have lots of high profile cases in the UK I just wonder how many there are in Portugal..

I have been in Portugal for almost 37 years and I don't remember any cases of anyone unjustly convicted and jailed and then freed. But somebody else may know more than I do. Of course, they all say they are innocent, don't they? The problem in Portugal, is that there are so many safeguards for suspects that someone is more likely to get away with committing a crime than getting unjustly convicted.

BTW, the most anyone can be sent to prison is 25 years, even if you murder 20 people the maximum sentence is 25 years.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 01, 2013, 11:39:20 PM
Forensics aren't just DNA. The forensics showed that there was blood everywhere in the flat and those locations matched the locations identified by the defendant. Basically a spot of blood in the freezer means little, blood all over the crime scene means much more.

Its worth pointing out that forensics are not the sole evidence used to convict but they form but part of the whole case. Forensics matched with confession, witness statements, records of movements and profiling of the accused, amongst other things, are all used in court. Therefore DNA forensics is not always needed to convict.

What forensic evidence was there in this case?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 01, 2013, 11:42:07 PM
What proof was there that she'd even got back home that evening?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 02, 2013, 03:25:39 AM

No proof of anything, actually.  A very, very unsafe conviction for both of the Ciprianos.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 02, 2013, 09:49:46 AM
As If I would LOL
Stop accusing and crying wolf about bullying......is that the best argument you have???.for your own inadeqacies? You posted something as a FACT...indeed that was your exact word, i asked you...note...asked...not  demanded...for your evidence FOR that FACT,,,, you couldnt supply it..andfurther got so indignant at being asked...and do notee its against forum rules to post things as fact without a back up link,,,,.....if thats what you  call bullying then thats pretty poor and sad....,,perhaps you can now move yourself to the thread called abductions and show YOUR evidence that Carolina was a FACT, as you STATED, of any abduction, ta...for onlookers convo was on page  1 or so of this thread......post 13

Quiet in here, so off to watch some box nite luv...And if you come across the  evidence for the fact of carolina do post it.... If not next time dont state anything as fact unless u can back it up as fact and also then dont spit dummy out for being asked and being incapable of doing so.....In other words you are going to post about things you dont have a clue  about dont be so aggressive  LOL...makes you look utterly stupid..not forgetting many of your posts are soooo bullying and emotionally blackmailing and pontificating against other members here, how disgraceful, but you cant see past your mirror reflection i suppose....

 @)(++(*

Roll eyes



Oh dear! Did I upset you?

What evidence  would you like that darling of the "they did it" brigade, Morais is an "anti Mccann" blogger? Her entire works?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2013, 09:53:26 AM
Yet again, certain people support convicted murderers.

Very revealing. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 02, 2013, 09:55:44 AM
Yet again, certain people support convicted murderers.

Very revealing. >@@(*&)

Yes & it appears she can't back up her original claim either.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 02, 2013, 09:57:29 AM
For pretty much the same reasons you do.

Carolina is a fact.


This bit Jazzy.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 02, 2013, 09:59:49 AM
Do what I do, use google.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 02, 2013, 10:04:43 AM
Will you be actively campaigning for the release of the Ciprianos in the near future?

Should I google for that aswell.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 02, 2013, 10:05:11 AM
Why would I?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
Will you be actively campaigning for the release of the Ciprianos in the near future?

Should I google for that aswell.

Indeed, if the mccann supporters backing the Cipriano's are consistent, that is exactly what they should do.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 10:27:15 AM
Indeed, if the mccann supporters backing the Cipriano's are consistent, that is exactly what they should do.

 What you don't understand Stephen is that this is justice Portuguese style. It seem that Cipriano was convicted on confessions extracted by torture or threat of torture..are you happy with that... The problem is that according to Montclair who has lived in Portugal for 37 years, he has never heard of any case being overturned ...not one .
I certainly would like to see the case looked at again as I suspect on the evidence we have seen there has been a gross miscarriage of justice
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 02, 2013, 10:53:03 AM
What you don't understand Stephen is that this is justice Portuguese style. It seem that Cipriano was convicted on confessions extracted by torture or threat of torture..are you happy with that... The problem is that according to Montclair who has lived in Portugal for 37 years, he has never heard of any case being overturned ...not one .
I certainly would like to see the case looked at again as I suspect on the evidence we have seen there has been a gross miscarriage of justice

Why do you insist on that lie that Leonor Cipriano was convicted on the confession? He brother confessed in court and described in court everything that they had done to the poor girl. Furthermore, Leonor's confession, made 2 days before the alleged torture, had not judicial value and was not taken into consideration by the judges because she did not confirm it in the court during the trial.

The case has been looked at through the various appeals made and the couple lost all of their appeals, although, in one appeal, Leonor had her sentenced reduced by a few years.

As for cases being overturned, I don't remember any but that doesn't mean that there weren't any.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 02, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
Indeed, if the mccann supporters backing the Cipriano's are consistent, that is exactly what they should do.

Why would "Mccann supporters" back the Ciprianos? They had their day in court and were found to be guilty. Others were also found to be guilty of their torture after their day in court.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 10:55:26 AM
Why do you insist on that lie that Leonor Cipriano was convicted on the confession? He brother confessed in court and described in court everything that they had done to the poor girl. Furthermore, Leonor's confession, made 2 days before the alleged torture, had not judicial value and was not taken into consideration by the judges because she did not confirm it in the court during the trial.

The case has been looked at through the various appeals made and the couple lost all of their appeals, although, in one appeal, Leonor had her sentenced reduced by a few years.

As for cases being overturned, I don't remember any but that doesn't mean that there weren't any.

 You say her brother confessed everything in court...do you have proof of that..in fact do you have ANY evidence of that...a court transcript ..a newspaper article
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 11:26:13 AM
Why do you insist on that lie that Leonor Cipriano was convicted on the confession? He brother confessed in court and described in court everything that they had done to the poor girl. Furthermore, Leonor's confession, made 2 days before the alleged torture, had not judicial value and was not taken into consideration by the judges because she did not confirm it in the court during the trial.

The case has been looked at through the various appeals made and the couple lost all of their appeals, although, in one appeal, Leonor had her sentenced reduced by a few years.

As for cases being overturned, I don't remember any but that doesn't mean that there weren't any.





This quote from the Algarve resident appears to show that it is you that is repeating lies...

The court heard a catalogue of horrifying details, including an earlier video taped confession from Joana’s uncle in which he related the circumstances of his niece’s murder. This video testimony is now the subject of an appeal from the defence team who claim it should be excluded because the couple exercised their right to remain silent during the trial



So Joao  Cipriano did not confess in court as you have stated


http://www.algarveresident.com/10046-3535/algarve/portugals-silent-child-victims
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 02, 2013, 12:44:25 PM
We're samples ever saved? I'm sure DNA could be tested in the blood etc
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 02, 2013, 01:29:59 PM
We're samples ever saved? I'm sure DNA could be tested in the blood etc

Maybe you'll be happy to read the Supreme Court's decision after Leonor's last appeal (and don't be chocked, even though the language is much lighter than the one in the first sentence).

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano (http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 01:38:34 PM
Maybe you'll be happy to read the Supreme Court's decision after Leonor's last appeal (and don't be chocked, even though the language is much lighter than the one in the first sentence).

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano (http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano)

 doesn't matter what the court says..
What we SEEM to have established is that there is no evidence against the Ciprianos apart from that which was beaten out of them. 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 02, 2013, 01:39:43 PM
From the document by the Supreme Court whose link we provided above, the translation of an extract with thanks to Joana Morais http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html) :


«9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

a) the arguidos are siblings;

b) the arguido AA [João Cipriano] has never held a regular job or residence, living inside a vehicle or at his siblings’ house, surviving on occasional jobs that he performed on diverse locations;

c) the arguido AA manifests despise for human life – a result of a poor social adjustment and affective coldness – and has anti-social/psychopathic tendencies with a difficulty to control his impulses, which leads him to be aggressive, trying to solve conflicts through said aggressiveness, feeling no remorse for the consequences of the actions that he thus performs, despising other people’s rights, wishes or feelings;

d) through a ruling that has been validated in court, and given on 10.11.1993, arguido AA was condemned to a 4-year prison sentence over the practice, on 2.10.1992, of a crime of attempted homicide, (…). Said ruling includes that the arguido was convinced, by a third party that lived with one of the arguido’s sisters (GG) to take the life of another person who had left him blind, in exchange for 20.000$00 and a motorbike (…);

e) the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulties in expressing frustration, while her socialisation was marked by immature, superficial and narcissistic interpersonal relationships, where characteristics of manipulation (to satisfy her own needs) and aggressiveness (of mainly sadistic tonality) are stand out, while in her personality the absence of empathy and the insensibility are salient, leading to the arguida’s despise for other people’s rights, needs and sentiments, directing her aggressiveness towards them, with a weak capacity to feel remorse. She possesses a borderline personality with anti-social/psychopathic, narcissistic and schizoid traits;

f) the arguida BB, who has six children from five relationships, has been showing some lack of interest in her elder children, throughout her life;

g) concerning her eldest daughter, EE, who presently lives with her father and grandmother in Olhão, she left her there at the age of 11 months, never cared for her again, and didn’t ask about her, for 14 years;

h) her second child, FF, who lived with his paternal grandmother and presently lives with a paternal aunt, in Messines, was also left by her to the father, and she never cared for him again;

i) the fourth child, HH, who presently lives with his father in Porches, was left home alone by the arguido BB at the age of 7 months, buckled to his chair, which is how he was found by neighbours who perceived the situation;

j) at that time, arguida BB started living with II [Leandro Silva], a relationship that produced two children, JJ and KK;

l) the third child that she bore was CC [Joana], who was born on 31.05.1996, a daughter of LL;

m) minor CC, in September 2004, was aged eight, being thin and measuring between 1,20 and 1,40 metres; (2)

n) minor CC was sometimes sad;

o) the arguida BB did not exercise any professional activity;

p) when the arguida was living with partner II, minor CC helped her mother with some home chores, as she sometimes helped to clean the house, took care of her younger siblings and went shopping;

q) before arguida BB moved in with her partner II, she wanted to stop having CC under her care, and left her, at the age of 5 months, with her father, LL – with whom she had no relationship since the beginning of the pregnancy – who ended up ‘returning’ her 2 days later, and later, she once more handed her over to the father, who didn’t want to keep her;

r) in September 2003, arguida BB left CC under the care of a couple of persons with alcoholism problems and with a bed-ridden child that had an infecto-contagious illness, in a house with no conditions whatsoever, for 2 or 3 weeks;

s) on the first day of school for minor CC at the Primary School in Figueira, in the school year of 2003/2004, arguida BB didn’t walk the minor to school, and CC arrived with a neighbour, whom she asked for help because she couldn’t find the way;

t) on another occasion, the same neighbour took the minor to hospital, at a moment when she was visibly ill with a strong cough;

u) in the early morning of the 12th of September 2004, arguido AA, after a row with his brother UU, went to the arguida BB’s house, taking his clothes with him, and during the 12th he stayed in that house, which is located in the village of Figueira – Mexilhoeira Grande, in the area of Portimão;

v) in the late afternoon of the 12th, his sister, arguida BB, and her children, CC, JJ and KK, returned home;

x) at around 8 p.m. on that 12th of September, arguida BB sent CC to buy a package of milk and two cans of food, at a shop called “Pastelaria…”, in Figueira, at a distance of approximately 420 metres from the house;

z) the living room of the house where arguida BB lived, is located immediately after the main door and the door that offers access to the street has a handle on the outside that allows for direct entry into the residence;

aa) minor CC returned home from “Pastelaria…”, where she had bought the aforementioned food products;

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so;

ag) and, as they knew that arguida BB’s partner – II – and his friend, MM, were about to arrive at home, and could discover what had happened there if they arrived before the traces were cleaned, at around 9.30 p.m. arguido AA left, headed towards “Pastelaria …”, where he met II and MM, who were already there, and whom he told that minor CC had not returned home;

ah) when the three of them returned home, arguida BB had already cleaned the existing blood marks, and equally mentioned that minor CC hadn’t returned home after doing the shopping;

ai) confronted with what the arguida was saying, II and MM decided to go out and look for the minor, while the arguidos remained at home;

aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer that existed in the living room;

al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;

am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

ao) the arguidos did not place the shoes that the minor was wearing, inside the bags, and all the pairs of shoes that the minor was using that summer, stayed inside the house;

ap) as the minor had already been dead for approximately two hours, not a lot of blood left the body;

aq) between 10.30 and 11 p.m., the arguida BB joined her partner II and MM, to whom she reiterated that CC was missing, and only at that point in time did she go to "Pastelaria ....." and asked the owner (NN) if CC had been there, then saying that she had disappeared;

ar) nevertheless, the arguida didn’t inform the police authorities about anything, despite there being GNR officers on duty in Figueira, because a popular fair called “Mussels Party” was taking place, and it was the third person (NN) that did it by telephone, at around 0.44 a.m. on the 13th of September, when she heard that the arguida hadn’t done so yet, and it was following said telephone call that the arguida ended up talking to GNR officers near the church in Figueira;

as) at that point in time the arguida said she hadn’t phoned because she had no credit on her mobile phone;

at) later on, at around 2 a.m., the arguida bought cakes in a pastry shop in the same village;

au) on the morning of the 13th, the arguida BB went to the GNR Station, in Portimão, accompanied by arguido AA, where she filed a complaint over the disappearance of CC;

av) and through the intervention of third parties, relatives of her partner II, the alleged ‘disappearance’ truly started to be publicised, with the distribution of photographs of CC, because until then the arguidos had intended not to alert the authorities;

ax) at the end of the night of the 13th, the arguidos left the house together, carrying a bag;

az) the arguido AA remained at the arguida BB’s house until the 14th, a time lapse during which the two arguidos, in a manner that was not possible to determine, transported CC’s mortal remains to an unknown location, thus fulfilling the intention that they had proposed themselves to – to prevent the finding of said mortal remains – and those remains have not been found to this day, just as the cutting instruments, which the arguidos have hidden in an unknown location, haven’t been found;

aaa) the arguida BB gave interviews to the media, trying to make believe that the minor had in fact disappeared, a version that she maintained in front of many of the people who were interested in the minor’s destiny and questioned her about the matter;

aab) during those interviews about the case, arguida BB sometimes mentioned her daughter in the past tense and wore a black blouse;

aac) ticks, namely so-called “little leads” (ticks in their early adult phase) have receptors for chemical stimuli that are associated to temperature, which allow for them to detect the existence of blood-specific chemical compounds;

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

aae) through an indication from arguida BB, Polícia Judiciária agents went to the house of arguida BB’ eldest daughter’s paternal grandmother (EE), in Olhão, searching for CC, and also investigated if an individual of Moroccan nationality had taken the minor;

aaf) when presented to a clinical psychologist, within an examination that was performed within the process’ scope, arguida BB mentioned the existence of neighbours of Brazilian nationality who might have taken CC with them, because they had two “good” cars and left the area on the same date on which the minor had “disappeared”;

aag) following indications from arguido AA, PJ agents searched for CC’s body in a brown earth embankment that is located near the road that accesses Mexilhoeira, then on other locations nearby, further away in Poço Barreto, in a wrecked car, in Silves, under the Arade River bridge;

aah) the arguidos managed to disturb the investigative activities and prevented the mortal remains of minor CC, whose life they took, from being located;

aai) the aforementioned activities were carried out by the arguidos under concerted efforts and intentions, in a deliberate, free and conscious manner, fully knowing that those behaviours are punished by law;

aaj) therefore as far as taking the life of CC, their direct relative (daughter and niece), is concerned, which they did by employing force, taking advantage of the fact that she couldn’t defend herself (taking into account her age and physical built) and using force in the full knowledge that, considering the vital area in which her body was hit (the head) repeatedly and violently, prompting the minor’s head to hit the wall, they could take her life away from her, a consequence which they accepted, still not ceasing their activity;

aal) not seeing as an obstacle the circumstance that the minor depended on her mother and was a direct relative of both, and should be defended instead of victimised by them;

aam) in the same deliberate, free and conscious manner, and knowing that such behaviour is punishable, they carried out the above described action of cutting CC’s body, demonstrating total insensibility, knowing full well that, in this manner, they offended the communitarian respect that is due to the dead, acting with the purpose of CC’s body never being found again, hiding it in a location that is not appropriated for the effect, in order to try to avoid responsibility for her death;

aan) the arguida BB has no criminal record;

aao) the arguido AA, apart from the above mentioned condemnation under item e), was further condemned, in 1995, under a sentence that has been validated in court, for the practise of a qualified theft, to a penalty, accumulating with the penalty that was imputed over the crime of attempted murder, of 3 years and 8 months in prison; in 2001, over the practise of a crime of illegal driving of a vehicle, he was condemned, under a sentence that has been validated in court, to a penalty of 90 days of fine; and in 2003, over the practise of a crime of illegal driving of a vehicle, he was condemned, under a sentence that has been validated in court, to a penalty of 6 months and 15 days in prison, which was suspended in its execution, in exchange for the compliance with conditions, a suspension that was later revoked;

aap) in terms of schooling, the arguida BB completed 3rd grade, never exercised any profession and married at the age of 18;

aaq) in terms of schooling, the arguido AA completed 4th grade and has worked since he left school, but always exercising undifferentiated services and without any contract;

aas) the arguidos were born within a large family (the parents and 9 siblings), where the father’s alcoholic habits and the financial difficulties stood out.»
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 02, 2013, 01:41:00 PM
doesn't matter what the court says..
What we SEEM to have established is that there is no evidence against the Ciprianos apart from that which was beaten out of them.

According to the Court they were not beaten to confess, they gave it voluntarly in the presence of their lawyers. Otherwise it would not have been accepted in Court.


And who are you to establish anything?!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 02, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
Hi Luz, is there an English translation available anywhere, I neither speak nor read Portuguese, though I have visited Portugal many times.

Is this it?

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

With thanks to Red for finding the link.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 02, 2013, 01:49:43 PM
Hi Luz, is there an English translation available anywhere, I neither speak nor read Portuguese, though I have visited Portugal many times.


Yes. Joana Morais has translated the whole document: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html)

and she has a lot of information about all the Cipriano case: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/search/label/Cipriano%20Case?max_results=100 (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/search/label/Cipriano%20Case?max_results=100)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 02:07:10 PM
According to the Court they were not beaten to confess, they gave it voluntarly in the presence of their lawyers. Otherwise it would not have been accepted in Court.


And who are you to establish anything?!!!!!!!!!!


Lets deal with this ridiculous statement first... if you can comment and state opinions re the MCcANNS , then I can do the same with the Ciprianos. Anyone would see that as sensible
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 02:09:18 PM
According to the Court they were not beaten to confess, they gave it voluntarly in the presence of their lawyers. Otherwise it would not have been accepted in Court.


And who are you to establish anything?!!!!!!!!!!

You need to start telling the truth..the Portuguese court proved she was beaten by the pj
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 02:12:41 PM
luz cannot run away from the fact that there appears to be no evidence apart from that obtained under torture.

In the morais transaltion it is sated that Joannas blood was found...wheres the evidence for this...no dna evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 02, 2013, 02:18:34 PM
I still think that this case merits its own sub-forum. The slanging matches on the McCann threads don't help to elucidate what happened to this little girl, in my opinion.

I have no idea whether the right people are in prison or not. Perhaps they are. However, there is no proof that she ever even got back home ... She could also be a missing little girl waiting to be found, but no one seems to be questioning what happened to her.   8(8-))
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 02, 2013, 03:08:18 PM
Hi davel, are there any non partisan translations available anywhere that I can read ?

 Not that I know of but....Luz who I would think knows the case in detail cannot refute the allegation that the only evidence was the confessions obtained under torture. Montclair claimed that these were confirmed in court by Joao ,
which according to a newspaper report is untrue. From what I can remember the account "proved " in court is simply what the PJ dreamed up and forced Joao to recite by beating him. Furthermore the blood supposedly found in the house that was supposed to be Joannas was not confirmed by dna
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 02, 2013, 04:35:11 PM
ACED REPORT
SOS PRISONS

Ex.mos. Gentlemen
President of the Republic;
President of the Assembly;
Chairman of Constitutional Affairs, Rights, Liberties and Guarantees of the AR;
Attorney General's Office
Minister of Justice;
Ombudsman;
General Inspectorate of Justice Services;
President of the Human Rights Commission of the Bar

Lisbon, 04.08.2008
N. Ref No. 16/apd/08

Subject: Report on Torture Leonor Cipriano

As a jurist of ACED, Dr. Marcos Aragão Correia asked if the allegations of torture of Leonor Cipriano by PJ. Concluded, as the public domain, the existence of various signs and witnesses of the brutality and irrationality of this research methods allowed police. We remember the defense of the accused against threatening public institutions made by colleagues of the organizations targeted for torture and the fact that agents involved in this case have been mobilized to work in cases of high sensitivity and national politics, without any kind of shame.
In addition to what our lawyer said, it is also able to exist in Portugal the possibility of some public health facilities are capable of concealing or not reporting practices of torture against patients submitted to it, the organization's business involving agents State security with the aim of covering up torture, denounced the existence of torture - by the courage of a state agent, but not the existence of complaints in similar situations in other prisons, where eventually the business will have been successful . That changed in such treacherous business?
The ACED has, it's good to see, ways to confirm or rule out what can be deduced that the Portuguese situation in the field of police torture. But the Portuguese state has signed and is the guardian of international commitments to which, we imagine, not to escape. So we send this report to the Portuguese authorities in the hope that the name of Portugal can no longer be tied to such shame.
The ACED want on this occasion to reiterate the congratulations addressed to public prosecutors to the indictment, following a complaint of an unprecedented chain director, in this case a lady, now added the fact that no pressure is siding with the public - and others - that were targeted. Want to such positions may be in the future dominant in Portuguese criminal and judicial means, to encourage all those who saw fit to look into all clues of possible crimes in the report that uncertain then transcribed in full.

The Directorate

REPORT ON TORTURE BY PERPETADA of Leonor Cipriano Portuguese Judicial Police

Research firm: ACED - Association Against Exclusion for Development;

Investigator / Rapporteur: Marcos Aragão Correia, Lawyer;

Date: April 8, 2008.

INTRODUCTION

Following the known allegations of torture of Leonor Cipriano, committed by the Judicial Police in September 2004, currently serving a prison sentence of 16 years and eight months in Prison Odemira, the ACED - Association Against Exclusion for Development decided to investigate more detail their claims, especially when the situation became urgent to clarify the extent to which the Judicial Police pays off to medieval methods of criminal investigation, which would be contained only in the most recent girl Madeleine Beth McCann, the social position parents the same, strictly opposed to Leonor Cipriano.
Thus, after collecting the generous permission of the authorized representative of Leonor Cipriano colleague, the Hon. Dr. João Grade dos Santos, I traveled to the said prison, in Odemira, Alentejo, having arrived shortly after 9 o'clock in the morning of today (April 8, 2008).

No. 1
Leonor Cipriano was called, and agreed to talk to me in the room reserved for lawyers to do so. Remained so convinced and excited, which had no intervention in the death of her daughter Joanna, which knows the whereabouts since the day September 12, 2004, when it was last seen at about 20 hours. Residents in the village of Figueira in Mexilhoeira Grande, near Portimão, that Joanna had asked to go to a grocery store named "Pastry Celia" Sita about 500 meters from the residence, grocery store owned by a Mrs. Alfélia in order to buy some food, as indeed it used to do it. After about 10 minutes and because Joan is not returned, went to the grocery store mentioned in order to ask the daughter, as she was actually answered by the owner Joan had been there but had left shortly after making a few purchases that have been requested by the mother. Even Eleanor tried to find the daughter nearby, but in vain, so called, to have your phone without charge, Mrs. Alfélia to call the GNR to seek help, which it did immediately, and the National Guard attended the local 21 o'clock the same day. Joana Cipriano was then eight years old, born May 31, 1996, and attended the 2nd grade.

No. 2
Leonor Cipriano account still has six children, including Joan. The oldest. Dina Maria, currently has 18 years, just below Marco Antonio, 12 years, Joan now has or would have 11 years, André Philip who is 8 years, Reuben has six, and Lara Sophia, who is 4 years old. Despite all the public defamation that Leonor was the victim, was often omitted, intentionally or not, the views of older children on the mother's behavior. Fruits of different relations, says Leonor like all the children in the same way, and even tells them to go about it. The current partner Eleanor, now torn apart by the force of grids that reigned on Leonor, was the father of two young children, but Joan was like his own daughter, the five living in the same house. From his name António Leandro David Silva, has always claimed that Leonor Cipriano was unable to harm any of her six children.

No. 3
Arrested on 25 September 2004, Leonor Cipriano was admitted to the Prison Odemira, reserved exclusively for female prisoners. On consecutive days immediately is taken by several inspectors of the Judicial Police to the premises of the same directory of Faro police. This is where the hell Leonor worsens. Tears flowed abundantly him in my presence. Accustomed to exercise almost exclusively in criminal law, I think I can say with great conviction that the tears were genuine. Leonor was crying by the association that the inspectors of the Judicial Police did the interrogation, between her and her daughter, as the direct cause of death and dismemberment in a row to give food to the pigs. Leonor refused these charges immediately. Without any evidence, including the material used for the alleged dismemberment, or bones left by pigs, or even their own pigs, inspectors, about five exalt himself, and screaming, treating it as "you", try persuade her to confess what they wanted. Leonor refusal. Then the torture itself begins. Inspectors from the Judicial Police put two glass ashtrays on the floor and forced Eleanor to kneel on them. Did not allow her to stand up to confess. Eleanor tells the pains of hours have remained in that state. He showed me the scars on his knees, after nearly four years are still visible, and probably will remain for the rest of your life. They are white lines on both knees to prove who was the victim of such abuse, or at least very similar. Realizing the futility of the procedure, the PJ inspectors sit in a chair and Leonor mess on his head a green plastic bag, supermarket. Screaming, trying to force a false confession, inspectors start to beat Leonor in the head with a hard cardboard tube, normally used to send documents by mail rolled. The tube, very hard, and handled with great force against the head of Leonor, bleeding caused him to come down to the eyes. If Eleanor tried to take the bag of the head, was immediately attacked in his hands. Inspectors screamed whenever she would only confess to living there. These beatings alternated with other forms of torture. From time to time raised Leonor, sometimes holding the bag, without the other bag. When standing, began to give strong punches and kicks to the sides of the back. This was repeated several times. The torture lasted two days. Eleanor says she was afraid to die there. So he signed without even reading what they wanted her to sign.

No. 4
In possession of false confession, Leonor inspectors return to prison. But finding that his health was too serious, they decide to go through the Health Center Odemira, so that the doctor will prescribe service (or disguise) something. However, interestingly, came from Faro, and Faro was who had the most complete health care. But wait for Odemira. Leonor warned before to tell the doctor and the prison who had thrown down the stairs in the directory of the PJ in Faro in order to attempt suicide. They threatened that if she spoke something of aggression, they would return to take her in for questioning and that's where she would not leave alive. Leonor confirms what the inspectors wanted to while in their presence, but they barely leave the prison, she tells the whole truth to the guards and the Director of the Prison Odemira. This, alarmed by the disastrous state of health of Leonor Cipriano, ordered to be photographed and sent back to the Health Centre Odemira, but this time it was made for a medical-legal expertise.

No. 5
After nearly two hours talking with Leonor Cipriano, soon had to follow the care request a meeting with the Director of Prison Odemira in order to confirm these data. I readily received by it, with whom I talked about this for almost 1 hour. From his name Ana Maria Calado, a degree in Sociology, and has attended four years of medical school. Is Director of the Prison Odemira 7 years ago. Confirmed to me that with courage Leonor Cipriano told me. Own a person that puts corporate interests above values, Dr. Ana Maria Calado, said to me that had been shocked by the state in which Eleanor had entered the prison. The bruises, bruises and contusions, were abundantly visible in the face, especially around the eyes, head, and back, especially to the sides. Assures me that using their knowledge of medicine, in fact confirmed by medical examinations made after the legal Leonor such physical marks clearly indicated violent attacks, and never by a simple fall down the stairs. Were numerous and quite pronounced, he said. During our meeting, surprised even several facts: the fact that the PJ, in addition to not having done Leonor go to a hospital in Faro, never sent a delegate to the prison health to try and prove that the marks would be imprisoned the alleged suicide attempt by the stairs, even stranger that the PJ have chosen the day of questioning exactly coinciding with his week's holiday, as if in work, the behavior would never have allowed the PJ to pick Leonor at 6 the morning and return it by midnight, with no formal request from a direction of PJ, which never existed, even more strange that, when opened an internal investigation by the PJ and in relation to torture of Joan, a team of two inspectors from Lisbon, in private meeting with her in prison, having tried to negotiate an allocation of fault between the PJ and the same prison in relation to aggressive Leonor. As a person of integrity, Dr. Ana Calado obviously refused pact on something that their establishment had no responsibility. He also said that the Director Mrs. health of Leonor Cipriano worsened one week after being tortured, as the accumulated blood around the eyebrows was so much that did the same sagging over the eyes of Leonor, causing stay practically blind for almost a month. Only now regret not having sent also take pictures of this period the health of Leonor. Dr. Ana Maria Calado said to me, that Leonor Cipriano "in terms of attitude and behavior is one of the best inmates who had for many years" and that minimally does not believe that she tried to commit suicide, because not only would have many opportunities to do so after the fateful interrogation but he never did, nor has any history prior to his arrest. Also reinforced the excellent relationship with Leonor guards and other inmates. With a touch of humor, he added that if the car exploded as I know who would have been. Anyway, we finished our meeting, coming to confirm the excellent references that had this Mrs. Director.

No. 6
For João Cipriano, 38, 1 year older brother of Leonor, this also says he was tortured separately, according to him had reported the same, but the prison where his brother was gone did not deign to take the same steps probative of the attacks as he had done Odemira. John Cyprian wrote, after the award of both a letter to Eleanor asking your pardon, specifically for his sister to forgive him all the lies he was forced to say.

No. 7
Leonor Cipriano tried to identify, at the request of prosecutors, inspectors who tortured her. In its view, was transported to Evora in 2006 to try to recognize some of the torturers from six inspectors submitted to it. Unfortunately, given the lapse of time, that many times to be with a bag over her head when attacked, and the possibility of not being recognized at the site of all offenders, Leonor was only able to say with absolute certainty that Gonçalo Amaral , then coordinator of the DIC of Portimão, was present during the interrogation, the torture of watching a perfectly complacent, because every time he had uncovered his eyes and he was beaten was there, walking from one side to another, without ever having tried prevent torture carried out by their subordinates.

CONCLUSION
Given the high credibility of the testimony of Leonor Cipriano, now corroborated by John Cyprian, for always Leandro David Anthony Silva, and above all absolutely credible the testimony of Mrs. Director of Prison Odemira, Dr. Ana Maria Calado, also attested for medical examinations arranged by the same law, I am convinced that we are facing a case that sets up a crime of torture perpetrated by agents of the Portuguese Judicial Police on Leonor Cipriano. It is unacceptable that law enforcement officers continue to use medieval methods to extract confessions at all costs, even if false, reminiscent of an inquisitor maximum of 600 years ago who admitted that even if I had to confess that the Pope did was a witch . These behaviors of agents of national police agencies are highly detrimental to the image of Portugal, which sees itself as a modern rule of law, a member of the European Union and human rights defender, exemplary and should be repressed under penalty discredit further the confidence of Portuguese citizens in the judicial system. A law enforcement officer, to be charged with enforcing the law, the duty has increased in relation to an ordinary citizen, to set an example himself fulfilling the law that you want to meet others. It is because of a crime with a special legal and moral reprehensibility, the parameters of the democratic rule of law enshrined in the Constitution that Portugal, lest our country be re-rated, nationally and internationally, as a fascist country, as has been insinuated in some foreign media. We can only bring out the parallels in the case of the disappearance of Joana Cipriano with Madeleine McCann. Both disappeared a few kilometers away, and both cases were investigated by the same Criminal Investigation Department of the Judicial Police of Portimão. In the first case, were not collected any valid evidence against Leonor Cipriano. In the second, and tell us as much as the successive and unpunished leaks coming from the PJ itself, and in accordance with the national press when he says "fountain of PJ" or "source close to the investigation," said the second case, the Madeleine , there is, despite the dust that we persistently try to shoot the eyes, any evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann, as indeed himself the Head of institution PJ implicitly admitted when he declared that the constitution as defendants of the latter was "hasty." However, the defendants are prohibited from talking about the case to the press, preventing them from exercising a legitimate right of defense to slander selected for disclosure by "sources close to the investigation." Read up on the subject very enlightening article authored by Fondation Princesse de Croy, with the rather plain title "Madeleine McCann probably eaten by Portuguese pigs" (in http://fondationprincessedecroy.over-blog.org/article-12736754.html) , revealing article on how Portugal is increasingly marred the level of its international image. It is therefore that the Portuguese government to eliminate once and for all the persistent human rights violations that continue unabated with impunity, especially among those who assert themselves as law enforcers and defenders of those rights at the state level. This should not only take the punishment of offenders, which in itself is already an indirect preventive dimension, but also a direct preventive action, making an active effort by eliminating and salutary constitution of the criminal police all the elements that are not carriers of a genuine technical training, discipline, especially legal and moral, both in its theoretical and practical components. I recommend this for the ACED, new complaint about the case to national authorities, as well as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I conclude this report, disclosing message Leonor Cipriano, writing and signed by today's date, so enter your vehement and emotional request to this effect:
"I want my daughter Joan appear so you can not just be with her again but also to show the world that the lords of the judicial police inspectors who tortured me is who are the real monsters." 04.08.2008. Leonor Cipriano . No. 34.
Why blame a better free than one innocent in jail.

Portimão, April 8, 2008

The Reporter,

Marcos Aragão Correia,
Lawyer (Lawyer Professional Card No. 427m), and Jurist of ACED - Association Against Exclusion for Development.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 02, 2013, 04:47:00 PM
Did amaral take his sarnies and walk for miles in the rain and storm to eat with Joanna's uncle?
I'm sure I read this years ago .why didn't he take a taxi
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 02, 2013, 05:11:51 PM
Did amaral take his sarnies and walk for miles in the rain and storm to eat with Joanna's uncle?
I'm sure I read this years ago .why didn't he take a taxi

Wasn't it christmas day ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 02, 2013, 05:12:14 PM
Thanks for that DCI but it reads like a google translation as opposed to a 'real person' translation.

You might think so! Translated by the author 8((()*/
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 02, 2013, 05:12:26 PM
Marcos Aragão Correia seems to be a somewhat controversial figure.

Has anyone translated E) A OPINIÃO CIENTÍFICA DO CRIMINOLOGISTA DR. BARRA DA COSTA
on that same site?


There seem to be quite a few potentially valid points.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 02, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
Really ?? Thanks again for bringing it to the thread.

You are welcome!

Seems its all true about the torture, otherwise why want an internal investigation.

When opened an internal investigation by the PJ and in relation to torture of Joan, a team of two inspectors from Lisbon, in private meeting with her in prison, having tried to negotiate an allocation of fault between the PJ and the same prison in relation to aggressive Leonor. As a person of integrity, Dr. Ana Calado obviously refused pact on something that their establishment had no responsibility.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 02, 2013, 06:15:16 PM
You are welcome!

Seems its all true about the torture, otherwise why want an internal investigation.

When opened an internal investigation by the PJ and in relation to torture of Joan, a team of two inspectors from Lisbon, in private meeting with her in prison, having tried to negotiate an allocation of fault between the PJ and the same prison in relation to aggressive Leonor. As a person of integrity, Dr. Ana Calado obviously refused pact on something that their establishment had no responsibility.

Whose Joan and when was she tortured? I thnk google translate is better than this  psychic lawyers ramblings....deary me


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 02, 2013, 06:48:13 PM
I think that Joan is João Cipriano.

Well, reading through the long text now, in no 2 it says Joan was one of Leonors  six children, in no 6 Joao is referred to by correct name..so torture of Joan makes no sense........doesnt matter, wouldnt trust that lawyer as far as I could  throw him.......


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 02, 2013, 06:49:44 PM
I think that Joan is João Cipriano.

You think? I doubt it, "I want my daughter Joan". Spelling error perhaps, missed the a off the end?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Jazzy on November 02, 2013, 07:18:08 PM
You think? I doubt it, "I want my daughter Joan". Spelling error perhaps, missed the a off the end?

So they did.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 02, 2013, 07:28:18 PM
So they did.

So what does the relation to the torture of Joan mean then??? was he on the wackybacky when writing it maybe


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2013, 03:23:31 PM

From another thread:

Carana

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Re: Has there been any other abductions on the Algarve?
« Reply #33 on: Today at 11:51:38 AM »

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Quote from: Montclair on November 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM

    Concerning the part of the article, which contains many falsehoods, about Michael Cook, it is incorrect when the author says that confessions are the most important part of evidence. During the dictatorship, they were but now, as I have already stated several times on this forum, only confessions made in front of the judge during the trial are considered valid. I don't believe that the man was taken to the court with soiled clothing, the judge would have noticed right away and his lawyer would have made a complaint. This man, IMO, is just another person who committed a crime and wants everyone to believe that he has been a victim of a miscarriage of justice.


According to this extract from Barra da Costa though, Leonor and João Cipriano didn't confess during the trial.



A PJ fez um vídeo, durante as investigações, para reconstituir o crime. Neste filme, João descreveu o crime com detalhes brutais. O vídeo foi exibido no último dia de julgamento. Mas as palavras de João não tinham qualquer valor, já que ele e Leonor tinham optado por não prestar declarações em julgamento.
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html


I realise that the lawyer's site is controversial, but would Barra da Costa misrepresent the facts of the original trial?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 03:27:01 PM
From another thread:

Carana

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Re: Has there been any other abductions on the Algarve?
« Reply #33 on: Today at 11:51:38 AM »

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Quote from: Montclair on November 02, 2013, 04:16:35 PM

    Concerning the part of the article, which contains many falsehoods, about Michael Cook, it is incorrect when the author says that confessions are the most important part of evidence. During the dictatorship, they were but now, as I have already stated several times on this forum, only confessions made in front of the judge during the trial are considered valid. I don't believe that the man was taken to the court with soiled clothing, the judge would have noticed right away and his lawyer would have made a complaint. This man, IMO, is just another person who committed a crime and wants everyone to believe that he has been a victim of a miscarriage of justice.


According to this extract from Barra da Costa though, Leonor and João Cipriano didn't confess during the trial.



A PJ fez um vídeo, durante as investigações, para reconstituir o crime. Neste filme, João descreveu o crime com detalhes brutais. O vídeo foi exibido no último dia de julgamento. Mas as palavras de João não tinham qualquer valor, já que ele e Leonor tinham optado por não prestar declarações em julgamento.
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html


I realise that the lawyer's site is controversial, but would Barra da Costa misrepresent the facts of the original trial?

 It was also reported in the newspapers that neither confessed during the trial so Montclair is wrong. You need to take what some posters say with a pinch of salt as they are willing to say anything to prove their agenda
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2013, 05:44:11 PM
It was also reported in the newspapers that neither confessed during the trial so Montclair is wrong. You need to take what some posters say with a pinch of salt as they are willing to say anything to prove their agenda

What on earth happened to this child? I haven't found anything to prove that she even returned home that evening.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 05:54:08 PM
What on earth happened to this child? I haven't found anything to prove that she even returned home that evening.

 Not one speck of her blood ever found despite what the PJ and the court claimed happened
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
What on earth happened to this child? I haven't found anything to prove that she even returned home that evening.

Like the shoes she was wearing were in the flat?
Sorry but if she was genuinely missing why would they both change their statement a zillion times, why would the brother change his story from I killed her to his sister sold her? Etc If you find nothong wrong in this case you  need to have a word with yourseldpf about many things....reread the whole supreme court judgement.....and tell me its all boll******
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 06:01:42 PM
Like the shoes she was wearing were in the flat?
Sorry but if she was genuinely missing why would they both change their statement a zillion times, why would the brother change his story from I killed her to his sister sold her? Etc If you find nothong wrong in this case you  need to have a word with yourseldpf about many things....reread the whole supreme court judgement.....and tell me its all boll******

yesterday you claimed there was blood everywhere...why was not one drop of Joannas blood found
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 06:06:54 PM
yesterday you claimed there was blood everywhere...why was not one drop of Joannas blood found

If you are going to respond to any of my posts at least respond to the flipping post instead of changing the goalposts.......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 06:14:35 PM
Like the shoes she was wearing were in the flat?
Sorry but if she was genuinely missing why would they both change their statement a zillion times, why would the brother change his story from I killed her to his sister sold her? Etc If you find nothong wrong in this case you  need to have a word with yourseldpf about many things....reread the whole supreme court judgement.....and tell me its all boll******

Why did they change their statements..because they were tortured...which has been proved
ive read the court judgement and a lot of it is bol*******

Now...about the blood



yesterday you claimed there was blood everywhere...why was not one drop of Joannas blood found
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2013, 06:28:17 PM
Like the shoes she was wearing were in the flat?
Sorry but if she was genuinely missing why would they both change their statement a zillion times, why would the brother change his story from I killed her to his sister sold her? Etc If you find nothong wrong in this case you  need to have a word with yourseldpf about many things....reread the whole supreme court judgement.....and tell me its all boll******

I have and I find the whole case very strange.

Try to take this case on its own for two minutes. (Imagine that it had taken place somewhere else entirely.)

I still haven't found any proof that she actually got home that evening. Neither have I found any forensic testimony to the effect that something disastrous had happened to this child in that house.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 06:35:19 PM
Like the shoes she was wearing were in the flat?


Was it ever established that she only had one pair of shoes?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 06:38:39 PM
Why did they change their statements..because they were tortured...which has been proved
ive read the court judgement and a lot of it is bol*******

Now...about the blood



yesterday you claimed there was blood everywhere...why was not one drop of Joannas blood found

Was the brother tortured in 2009 when he appealed his sentence? Giving a different story?Seems to me like the pair of them were trying to blame each other....for selling her.....why would they do that if she was abducted


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/supreme-court-refuses-to-review-joana.html

As for the blood I didnt claim anything, I posted whatI read in the court judgement about blood being found on floors and walls....you mayhave a point in the sense that this happens for innocent reasons in many households.....my parquet floor was strewn with blood last month after i cut my foot on glass....but I didnt have a child mssing or tell the police where she had lost blood.....! Or how I disposed of her.....he had his confession videotaped didnt? Was he black and blue in it? As for your saying the whole judgement is boll**** well I dont thnk youre qualified to do that, do you? As hasbeen explained on this thread, dna is not the be all and end all of evidence required to convict someone......there are many strands in cases....eta that last bit is for you carana as well....and what proof would you want for her getting home that evening?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 06:39:20 PM

Was it ever established that she only had one pair of shoes?

Benice, no one said that!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 06:44:32 PM
Was the brother tortured in 2009 when he appealed his sentence? Giving a different story?Seems to me like the pair of them were trying to blame each other....for selling her.....why would they do that if she was abducted


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/supreme-court-refuses-to-review-joana.html

As for the blood I didnt claim anything, I posted whatI read in the court judgement about blood being found on floors and walls....you mayhave a point in the sense that this happens for innocent reasons in many households.....my parquet floor was strewn with blood last month after i cut my foot on glass....but I didnt have a child mssing or tell the police where she had lost blood.....! Or how I disposed of her.....he had his confession videotaped didnt? Was he black and blue in it?

it seems he realised it was not worth being further tortured and gave in easy...the whole case sounds like a miscarriage of justice to me

why was no blood belonging to Joanna found

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 06:47:15 PM
it seems he realised it was not worth being further tortured and gave in easy...the whole case sounds like a miscarriage of justice to me


Youre not making much sense here.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 03, 2013, 06:49:36 PM
Youre not making much sense here.....

 perhaps if you could answer the question it would make more sense. the court claimed lots of blood as you have stated...but none of it belonged to Joanna how can that make sense to anyone
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 03, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
it seems he realised it was not worth being further tortured and gave in easy...the whole case sounds like a miscarriage of justice to me

why was no blood belonging to Joanna found

I have never found any forensics to indicate that she could have come to grief in that house.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 06:58:26 PM
I have and I find the whole case very strange. Try to take this case on its own for two minutes. (Imagine that it had taken place somewhere else entirely.)

I still haven't found any proof that she actually got home that evening. Neither have I found any forensic testimony to the effect that something disastrous had happened to this child in that house.

Totally agree Carana.  Most strange of all IMO is the fact that even the motive for the crime which was presented to the court was not accepted by them.    Surely a credible motive would be of paramount importance and an essential requirement for obtaining a guilty verdict in a murder trial.    Particularly in view of the apparent lack of forensics.



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 07:09:15 PM
Benice, no one said that!


I thought you were saying that her shoes being in the flat was proof that she had returned home?  If I got that wrong what did you mean?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 07:12:10 PM
perhaps if you could answer the question it would make more sense. the court claimed lots of blood as you have stated...but none of it belonged to Joanna how can that make sense to anyone

No davel....YOUR post about torture made no sense.......read back....as  for the blood.....how can you be in any position whatsoever to state as afact it wasnt her blood! Did they dna test it and found it to be someone elses?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 07:13:51 PM

I thought you were saying that her shoes being in the flat was proof that she had returned home?  If I got that wrong what did you mean?

if you had  read the judgement you will have seen that it said all the shoes she owned and wore were in the flat
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 07:18:13 PM
if you had  read the judgement you will have seen that it said all the shoes she owned and wore were in the flat

Ahh I see it all now.  Thanks.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
Ahh I see it all now.  Thanks.

which is the all you see  then benice.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 07:27:34 PM
which is the all you see  then benice.....

Pardon?  You've lost me.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 07:31:24 PM
Pardon?  You've lost me.

You replied to my post about the shoes by saying I see it all now....I wondered what you meant...whether you meant ah now youve read it all , ie the judgement relating to that small piece,and seen it or whether it was a sarky remark.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 07:42:01 PM
You replied to my post about the shoes by saying I see it all now....I wondered what you meant...whether you meant ah now youve read it all , ie the judgement relating to that small piece,and seen it or whether it was a sarky remark.....

I wasn't being sarky at all Red.  I simply meant that your explanation had cleared the query up for me and thanked you for it.





Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 03, 2013, 07:43:08 PM
I wasn't being sarky at all Red.  I simply meant that your explanation had cleared the query up for me and thanked you for it.

Ok cool then...

Eta should add my apologies for reading into your reaponse, nite nite now
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
Ok cool then...

Eta should add my apologies for reading into your reaponse, nite nite now

No worries.   Night night.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 03:00:56 PM
Whilst I was searchng for somethng I came across this statement  by Leonor Cipriano, never seen it before, so, anyone still want to maintain she is still alive/missing/abducted?



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 04:38:06 PM
Whilst I was searchng for somethng I came across this statement  by Leonor Cipriano, never seen it before, so, anyone still want to maintain she is still alive/missing/abducted?



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

 So where did this letter come from?
But the court proved Joanna died in the apt and was dismembered
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 07:50:48 PM
Its a 2009 statement.......where did it come from? Court or other official records presumably.....I dont know the context, perhaps as part of one of her appeals.....

The pair of them have been proved to be liars and changed their statements drastically and not just once, so not alot of reconciling to be done.....or know the exact truth.....

My question was and the point is does anyone still maintain bearing this and the court reports and judgements in mind that Joana is alive and was abducted! It does not make sense, does it?

poor little mite....~~~~~~
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 07:55:57 PM
Its a 2009 statement.......where did it come from? Court or other official records presumably.....I dont know the context, perhaps as part of one of her appeals.....

The pair of them have been proved to be liars and changed their statements drastically and not just once, so not alot of reconciling to be done.....or know the exact truth.....

My question was and the point is does anyone still maintain bearing this and the court reports and judgements in mind that Joana is alive and was abducted! It does not make sense, does it?

poor little mite....~~~~~~

 I think there is every reason to believe this conviction is unsafe. The only evidence are the two confessions obtained by torture or the threat of torture
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 08:00:06 PM
I think there is every reason to believe this conviction is unsafe. The only evidence are the two confessions obtained by torture or the threat of torture

So are you alledging this was an abduction but the two convicts had to confess to murder just like that? And for no reason? Do the PJ torture all parents of missing children? To extract a confession? Listen to what youre saying.......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 08:06:36 PM
So are you alledging this was an abduction but the two convicts had to confess to murder just like that? And for no reason? Do the PJ torture all parents of missing children? To extract a confession? Listen to what youre saying.......

 What I'm saying is that in the case of Leonor torture by the pj was proved in court ..fact..that is totally unnacceptable
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: ferryman on November 05, 2013, 08:08:17 PM
What I'm saying is that in the case of Leonor torture by the pj was proved in court ..fact..that is totally unnacceptable

Of course it is unacceptable.

.....removed inappropriate comment ....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 05, 2013, 08:44:00 PM
What I'm saying is that in the case of Leonor torture by the pj was proved in court ..fact..that is totally unnacceptable

Look, I know that none of it proves that she's guilty of murder, but have you read what she did to her kids? At the very, very least she's a despicable human being, at worst she's a cold blooded murderer.

If you really believe she's innocent, you should be campaigning on her behalf.

 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 08:47:49 PM
What I'm saying is that in the case of Leonor torture by the pj was proved in court ..fact..that is totally unnacceptable

Youre still avoiding the question......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 08:47:55 PM
Look, I know that none of it proves that she's guilty of murder, but have you read what she did to her kids? At the very, very least she's a despicable human being, at worst she's a cold blooded murderer.

If you really believe she's innocent, you should be campaigning on her behalf.

 You obviously haven't been reading the posts...campaigning on her behalf.....according to Montclair who has lived in Portugal for 37 years he has never known anyone to win an appeal..it doesn't happen in Portugal..what do you think of that..

As what she did to her children...that's the version from the pj
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 08:50:06 PM
Youre still avoiding the question......

conviction unsafe due to lack of evidence and proven use of torture,,,imo
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 05, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
You have to admit Dave, even the presiding judge lost patience with Leonor and her blatant lies. 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 08:58:07 PM
You have to admit Dave, even the presiding judge lost patience with Leonor and her blatant lies.
Well I heard that one judge refused to take part in the verdict out of disgust
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 05, 2013, 08:58:42 PM
You obviously haven't been reading the posts...campaigning on her behalf.....according to Montclair who has lived in Portugal for 37 years he has never known anyone to win an appeal..it doesn't happen in Portugal..what do you think of that..

As what she did to her children...that's the version from the pj

Well most of her children weren't living with her and it was her neighbour who said she found Joana lost and alone on her first day of school. She had to take her and explain why she was late. Her first day at school davel!

If that doesn't break your heart, nothing will!

As for now case being over turned in 37 years, if you really believe taht it was a miscarrage of justice, you should still try!

Nelson Mandela didn't say "well, I've been on Robin Island for 26 years and haven't got anywhere, I may as well give in" did he?

You've got to fight for what you believe in now matter what the odds are!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
Well most of her children weren't living with her and it was her neighbour who said she found Joana lost and alone on her first day of school. She had to take her and explain why she was late. Her first day at school davel!

If that doesn't break your heart, nothing will!

As for now case being over turned in 37 years, if you really believe taht it was a miscarrage of justice, you should still try!

Nelson Mandela didn't say "well, I've been on Robin Island for 26 years and haven't got anywhere, I may as well give in" did he?

You've got to fight for what you believe in now matter what the odds are!

I found Kate and Gerry's appearance on crimewatch heartbreaking
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 05, 2013, 09:06:14 PM
The thing that stands out for me about this case is that Leonor didn't even bother to phone the police the moment she realised Joana was missing.  I'm afraid her excuse about having no credit on her phone doesn't wash as 112 is free.

What has K&G being on Crimewatch to do with this thread Dave?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 09:10:01 PM
I found Kate and Gerry's appearance on crimewatch heartbreaking

Yes, both heartbreaking, a mother who  didnt take her kid to her first day of school and just left her to go alone and another one who was told her  three yr old kid was crying the night before and asking where they were, but left her again alone the next night too, not bothered....but left the door open in case if she woke up she could go out in the dark and trapse around looking for her,  thanks for bringing up the similarities.....

As for gerry and kates appearance(s) oh  dear....what a gullible person you are.....no hope for you
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 09:19:44 PM
Yes, both heartbreaking, a mother who  didnt take her kid to her first day of school and just left her to go alone and another one who was told her  three yr old kid was crying the night before and asking where they were, but left her again alone the next night too, not bothered....but left the door open in case if she woke up she could go out in the dark and trapse around looking for her,  thanks for bringing up the similarities.....

As for gerry and kates appearance(s) oh  dear....what a gullible person you are.....no hope for you

One of us is gullible...
I think the anti McCanns as a whole are gullible...accepting things without looking at the evidence..without questioning the evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 09:23:56 PM
One of us is gullible...
I think the anti McCanns as a whole are gullible...accepting things without looking at the evidence..without questioning the evidence

you are in no position whatsoever to decree and judge about a whole group of people, and their thoughts, ideas, reasons, suspicions, knowledge, informed decisions of, what they have looked at and what  they have accepted or discarded, etc in a case....how utterly arrogant and presumptious of you.....funniest post of the day.......nite dear
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 09:27:25 PM
you are in no position whatsoever to decree and judge about a whole group of people, and their thoughts, ideas, reasons, suspicions, knowledge, informed decisions of, what they have looked at and what  they have accepted or discarded, etc in a case....how utterly arrogant and presumptious of you.....funniest post of the day.......nite dear

 You do realise that you have just made this post...".what a gullible person you are.....no hope for you" but I am not allowed to answer.. I am entitled to my opinion even if you wish I wasnt
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 09:32:00 PM
You do realise that you have just made this post...".what a gullible person you are.....no hope for you" but I am not allowed to answer.. I am entitled to my opinion even if you wish I wasnt

I called you gullible for a specific single thing....you called a whole geoup of people that in general....,, a ....slight....difference.....
 @)(++(*

Nite chum

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 05, 2013, 09:34:07 PM
I found Kate and Gerry's appearance on crimewatch heartbreaking

The two things are not mutually exclusive davel! You can be as heart broken as you like for two adults you don't know as still be moved by a five year old girls being lost and alone!

All your feeling are reserved for a couple of grown ups are they?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 05, 2013, 09:42:15 PM
The two things are not mutually exclusive davel! You can be as heart broken as you like for two adults you don't know as still be moved by a five year old girls being lost and alone!

All your feeling are reserved for a couple of grown ups are they?

 Absolutely not..there is far more suffering in this world...a googol times more than either of these cases..a million murdered in Cambodia...a million murdered in Tibet.. I think its all the nastiness.. the bile.. that is directed towards the Mccanns...you have seen that facebook site..its almost unprecedented
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 05, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
Absolutely not..there is far more suffering in this world...a googol times more than either of these cases..a million murdered in Cambodia...a million murdered in Tibet.. I think its all the nastiness.. the bile.. that is directed towards the Mccanns...you have seen that facebook site..its almost unprecedented

And growing daily. I don't condone it davel.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 05, 2013, 10:08:22 PM
You have to admit Dave, even the presiding judge lost patience with Leonor and her blatant lies.

How could that be if  LC didn't speak at her trial? 

As for lying - you will say anything under torture - and agree with whatever  is being suggested by others that you did.    Hence IMO the  places re where the body was supposed to have been but was not found.   Because no matter how much you are tortured, if you didn't do it then how can you say where a body is?  No amount of torture is going to change that fact  So you just say anything or agree with what is being suggested to you.   - and IMO that is what happened.

There was no evidence to show the body had been consumed by pigs - but what a convenient 'solution' to explain why a body was never found.

There appears to be no forensic evidence  - and torture was proved to have been inflicted on LC by unidentified  officers of the PJ.     The only thing we know for sure is that Joanna Cipriano disappeared - which of course she would if she had been abducted.

How LC is still in prison I will never understand.
 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 05, 2013, 10:47:10 PM
You "will never understand" because only an innocent LC suits your agenda.
You're spreading the myth of a miscarriage of justice concerning LC, though you don't understand her language, have never seen her nor talked to her nor wrote to her.
LC concerns you only as an instrument to discredit the inspector who handled the case, not for the sake of Joana, but for the sake of another little girl's parents.
Exactly like the medium lawyer Aragão Correia.
Shameful.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 05, 2013, 11:02:32 PM
You "will never understand" because only an innocent LC suits your agenda.
You're spreading the myth of a miscarriage of justice concerning LC, though you don't understand her language, have never seen her nor talked to her nor wrote to her.
LC concerns you only as an instrument to discredit the inspector who handled the case, not for the sake of Joana, but for the sake of another little girl's parents.
Exactly like the medium lawyer Aragão Correia.
Shameful.

This is the vibe I'm getting too. Joana had a horrible life and a horrible death, yet she seems to have been forgotten.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 05, 2013, 11:05:30 PM
You obviously haven't been reading the posts...campaigning on her behalf.....according to Montclair who has lived in Portugal for 37 years he has never known anyone to win an appeal..it doesn't happen in Portugal..what do you think of that..

As what she did to her children...that's the version from the pj

I never said that no one has ever won an appeal. People win appeals all the time. Some have their sentences reduced, verdicts overturned but gross miscarriages of justice I don't remember any but that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. But Leonor and João Cipriano aren't victims, that's for sure. This is my last comment about those two, they have no more appeals, they have all been rejected.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 05, 2013, 11:13:23 PM
You "will never understand" because only an innocent LC suits your agenda.
You're spreading the myth of a miscarriage of justice concerning LC, though you don't understand her language, have never seen her nor talked to her nor wrote to her.
LC concerns you only as an instrument to discredit the inspector who handled the case, not for the sake of Joana, but for the sake of another little girl's parents.
Exactly like the medium lawyer Aragão Correia.
Shameful.


Reported. 

 I do not spread myths.  I post my opinion.  I have every right to do that -just as you have every right to post your opinions about your perceived guilt of the McCanns without being repeatedly accused of creating and spreading myths.   Creating myths is to create lies.   I am not a liar.


 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 06, 2013, 10:10:18 AM
Benice, I've told you I'll never leave you spread a myth without denouncing it, I certainly never said I wouldn't leave you express your opinion. This is the last thing I'd wish to do.

For instance when you claim that the McCanns were right not to give importance to Madeleine's asking where they were when she cried, this is your opinion, not a myth.

When you insinuate that LC shouldn't be in jail as decided by the Portuguese Justice you spread the myth of a possible miscarriage of justice.

And please don't spread the myth that I consider the McCanns guilty, because I never said so.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 06, 2013, 11:28:32 AM
Benice, I've told you I'll never leave you spread a myth without denouncing it, I certainly never said I wouldn't leave you express your opinion. This is the last thing I'd wish to do.

For instance when you claim that the McCanns were right not to give importance to Madeleine's asking where they were when she cried, this is your opinion, not a myth.

When you insinuate that LC shouldn't be in jail as decided by the Portuguese Justice you spread the myth of a possible miscarriage of justice.

And please don't spread the myth that I consider the McCanns guilty, because I never said so.

Posting an opinion is not spreading myths.  Spreading myths is dishonest.  I am not dishonest.  Your persistent personal attacks on me -  and not on my posts is against the rules.   

Quote from you to me:-
You're spreading the myth of a miscarriage of justice concerning LC, though you don't understand her language, have never seen her nor talked to her nor wrote to her.
Unquote

If it is prerequisite that posters can only comment on people they have met or talked to then this forum might as well be closed down now - as I doubt anyone here has met the McCanns or spoken to them.

If I think a miscarriage of justice may have occurred I am entitled to say so.   Just as those people who do not accept  (despite what SY have said) that the McCanns are innocent - are also entitled to express their opinions.

Your claim that you know WHY I post and that I am spreading lies as part of some kind of hidden agenda is outrageous and extremely offensive.   

On another thread where you also personally attack me  - John has requested that people leave out 'personal comments'.   That also applied to YOU - as I presume you are not exempt from the rules.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 11:32:56 AM
I never said that no one has ever won an appeal. People win appeals all the time. Some have their sentences reduced, verdicts overturned but gross miscarriages of justice I don't remember any but that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. But Leonor and João Cipriano aren't victims, that's for sure. This is my last comment about those two, they have no more appeals, they have all been rejected.

please make it your last comment because it was Luz who started this thread... I don't wish to keep commenting on it but if other posters raise the issue I will reply. I believe there  may have been a miscarriage of justice in this case ..simple as that...no agenda. My only agenda is to find out the truth about what happened to madeleine and after looking at all the evidence with a critical eye...I don't think her parents are involved and  on the balance of probabilities...which is how justice works ..I think she was abducted
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 11:38:13 AM
Posting an opinion is not spreading myths.  Spreading myths is dishonest.  I am not dishonest.  Your persistent personal attacks on me -  and not on my posts is against the rules.   

Quote from you to me:-
You're spreading the myth of a miscarriage of justice concerning LC, though you don't understand her language, have never seen her nor talked to her nor wrote to her.
Unquote

If it is prerequisite that posters can only comment on people they have met or talked to then this forum might as well be closed down now - as I doubt anyone here has met the McCanns or spoken to them.

If I think a miscarriage of justice may have occurred I am entitled to say so.   Just as those people who do not accept  (despite what SY have said) that the McCanns are innocent - are also entitled to express their opinions.

Your claim that you know WHY I post and that I am spreading lies as part of some kind of hidden agenda is outrageous and extremely offensive.   

On another thread where you also personally attack me  - John has requested that people leave out 'personal comments'.   That also applied to YOU - as I presume you are not exempt from the rules.

 Its rather silly to talk about spreading myths when what you and I have said is that there may have been a miscarriage of justice. if posters feel we are not allowed to have an opinion then I suggest it is them who have a problem AND an agenda.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: j.rob on November 06, 2013, 06:08:14 PM
Hmm - an interesting few hours reading the McCann files and the history behind the Amaral who was pulled from the case. Amaral was, of course, of the opinion that Madeleine died in the apartment and that the parents pretended there had been an abduction.

He was the lawyer who brought about a conviction in Portugal of the mother and uncle of a child, Joana, who was reported 'missing' by the mother. I do believe that the mother appeared in the media making appeals to the 'abductor' asking them not to harm the child.

The mother and uncle were eventually convicted of her murder, although I understand there are new twits (HA - typo!! should read TWISTS)  in the story and that the mother is now claiming it was the uncle who carried out the murder (who is her brother - is this correct??) Whether it was one or both of them - they are both proven liars, with serious personality defects

Her defence lawyer was/is Correia. Again, this is my understanding from what I have read.   Apparently Amaral thinks he should be sectioned and I have to say, from what I have read about him, I agree. He has also had some involvement in the McCann case in terms of searching for her - he believes in the abduction theory.

The Joana case reveals that the mother had been cruelly neglectful of the child and there is some evidence of sexual abuse. The mother changed her story endlessly and gave very unreliable evidence.

The mother provided evidence suggesting that Amaral had beated her up in order to make her confess to the killing of her daughter. This was widely reported in the UK press and elsewhere. The evidence was false. It was done to discredit Amaral. To my knowledge this fact has not been reported in the UK media. The mother lied about that - just like she had lied about the disappearance of her daughter. Amaral had, apparently, reported that her injuries were because she threw herself down the stairs. I presume because this is either what he believed or what she had told him. For this statement, which is wrong (apparently she was beaten up by inmates of the jail) he has been prosecuted and has received a suspended sentence. All sounds like a big stitch up.




Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: j.rob on November 06, 2013, 06:14:48 PM
Happy to be corrected on any facts that are inaccurate. You have to wade through a lot of files in order to reach some kind of summary of what has happened so far.

The timings are extremely interesting - it is my understanding that Amaral was made an arguido (on the basis of the false claim from the mother convicted of murdering Joana) on 4th May 2007. I think Gerry and Kate were quoted on their views on this - 'it speaks for itself' or something.

Has anyone informed them about them that Joana's mother made up a pack of lies about being beaten up by Amaral? I think it is quite important.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 06, 2013, 07:41:23 PM
My comments on the McCann's caring about Amaral were said in irony...

Benita?? Please clarify - are you denying that the mother of Joana, a murdered child, lied in her evidence that Amaral beat her up? That was the conclusion reached by a court of law.

Don't you think it is good that justice was found for an eight year old child who was brutally murdered?

Given that this thread relates to the murder of an innocent child and to the alleged disappearance of another child - whose parents claim they think may have been abducted by a paedophile, your facetious and childish smiley is just - extraordinary, really.
Leonor was terrified of being brutally tortured again.  She said anything that she was told to say.  Tortured people always do.  Ultimately, they have to protect themselves.

Fascist States use torture.  PT claims to be a Democracy, but as far as certain sections of the PJ and the Judiciary are concerned is clearly nothing of the sort. 

After a change from Fascism to Democracy, it is almost always sections of the Police / Judiciary and the Military that hang on to the old ways.  They fear losing their old power.  They have developed a liking for being able to order people around.  And some get a surge when torturing.  They thrive on bullying and torture.



Joana is almost certianly still alive as is Madeleine


Tbh, your thinking is lacking j.rob
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
Leonor was terrified of being brutally tortured again.  She said anything that she was told to say.  Tortured people always do.  Ultimately, they have to protect themselves.

Fascist States use torture.  PT claims to be a Democracy, but as far as certain sections of the PJ and the Judiciary are concerned is clearly nothing of the sort. 

After a change from Fascism to Democracy, it is almost always sections of the Police / Judiciary and the Military that hang on to the old ways.  They fear losing their old power.  They have developed a liking for being able to order people around.  And some get a surge when torturing.  They thrive on bullying and torture.



Joana is almost certianly still alive as is Madeleine


Tbh, your thinking is lacking j.rob

Joana is almost certianly still alive as is Madeleine


Yes and pigs have wings.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 07:45:23 PM
Joana is almost certianly still alive as is Madeleine

----



Ridiculous at best.......oh no evidence too, not a jot......for you to profess she is most certainly alive...same with Madeleine Mccann.....

And why did leonora say her brother killed her then? if she was abducted Tut tut

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2013, 07:48:44 PM
Leonor was terrified of being brutally tortured again.  She said anything that she was told to say.  Tortured people always do.  Ultimately, they have to protect themselves.

Fascist States use torture.  PT claims to be a Democracy, but as far as certain sections of the PJ and the Judiciary are concerned is clearly nothing of the sort. 

After a change from Fascism to Democracy, it is almost always sections of the Police / Judiciary and the Military that hang on to the old ways.  They fear losing their old power.  They have developed a liking for being able to order people around.  And some get a surge when torturing.  They thrive on bullying and torture.



Joana is almost certianly still alive as is Madeleine


Tbh, your thinking is lacking j.rob


Cipriano is a convicted liar.

You do not know she has told the truth.

Liars by their very nature aren't inclined to do that.

As to Joana, YES feel sorry for what happened to her.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 07:55:43 PM

Cipriano is a convicted liar.

You do not know she has told the truth.

Liars by their very nature aren't inclined to do that.

As to Joana, YES feel sorry for what happened to her.

Certainly is...one or both killed joana, thats what the court found, all appeals went down the bog, not rocket science.......she most certainly is not alive or missing abducted
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:00:33 PM

Cipriano is a convicted liar.

You do not know she has told the truth.

Liars by their very nature aren't inclined to do that.

As to Joana, YES feel sorry for what happened to her.

Leonor Cipriano may well have been the victim of a severe miscarriage of justice. It would seem the only evidence against her was extracted by the use or threat of torture
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2013, 08:06:52 PM
Leonor Cipriano may well have been the victim of a severe miscarriage of justice. It would seem the only evidence against her was extracted by the use or threat of torture

Can you prove any of that ?

Are you accusing specific persons of torture or threat of that?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:07:56 PM
Are you campaigning for her release?  Maybe you should write a letter to your MP or chain yourself to some railings.

 What a ridiculous thing to say.. I have valid opinions on many wrongs throughout the world..
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 08:08:15 PM
Is there DNA proof it was Joanna's blood in the house fridge ?
Didn't the mom say it was pigs blood ?

Wasn't Kate offered a deal confess and your get two years ?
No wonder Kate got the press involved


If that blood was not Joanna's what hope has she got to be found ?

Joanna's case is very strange .
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:10:09 PM
Can you prove any of that ?

Are you accusing specific persons of torture or threat of that?

 It is accepted by the court she was tortured by members of the pj and amaral was convicted of covering it up...how many times do you need to be told
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2013, 08:11:34 PM
Is there DNA proof it was Joanna's blood in the house fridge ?
Didn't the mom say it was pigs blood ?

Wasn't Kate offered a deal confess and your get two years ?
No wonder Kate got the press involved


If that blood was not Joanna's what hope has she got to be found ?

Joanna's case is very strange .

Do you have proof about pig's blood ?

Do you have proof that km was offered a deal, other than form the  mouth of her sister-in-law ?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:11:59 PM
Is there DNA proof it was Joanna's blood in the house fridge ?
Didn't the mom say it was pigs blood ?

Wasn't Kate offered a deal confess and your get two years ?
No wonder Kate got the press involved


If that blood was not Joanna's what hope has she got to be found ?

Joanna's case is very strange .

 

No dna proof...no proof Joanna is dead
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:13:29 PM
Do you have proof about pig's blood ?

Do you have proof that km was offered a deal, other than form the  mouth of her sister-in-law ?

 thers no proof of anything..thats the whole point
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
Is there DNA proof it was Joanna's blood in the house fridge ?
Didn't the mom say it was pigs blood ?

Wasn't Kate offered a deal confess and your get two years ?
No wonder Kate got the press involved


If that blood was not Joanna's what hope has she got to be found ?

Joanna's case is very strange .
@)(++(*

Press were involved 4 may...u saying kate was au fait with joana case then!!

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 08:14:43 PM
Do you have proof about pig's blood ?

Do you have proof that km was offered a deal, other than form the  mouth of her sister-in-law ?

How can I have proof .but I do believe Kate was offered deal
And I actually don't believe the blood was Joanna's .


Didn't the police write books about both cases ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 06, 2013, 08:15:36 PM
It is accepted by the court she was tortured by members of the pj and amaral was convicted of covering it up...how many times do you need to be told

..................but she was blindfolded. Does she have X-ray vision ?

and the woman is a liar and liar's don't have a habit of telling the truth.

So davel, put your money where your mouth is, name the 'torturers'.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:17:15 PM
It is accepted by the court she was tortured by members of the pj and amaral was convicted of covering it up...how many times do you need to be told

Still to see that.....

And no amaral was NOT convicted of covering it up pls stop your porkies
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:18:48 PM
Still to see that.....

And no amaral was NOT convicted of covering it up pls stop your porkies

so what was he convicted of?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
so what was he convicted of?

Read the judgement.......before spouting.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:21:45 PM
..................but she was blindfolded. Does she have X-ray vision ?

and the woman is a liar and liar's don't have a habit of telling the truth.

So davel, put your money where your mouth is, name the 'torturers'.

 do you know anything about the case . she was blindfolded so couldn't identify her attackers but the court accepted that torture had taken place. The PJ officers involved said she had fallen down the stairs and were proved in court to be liars
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
Read the judgement.......before spouting.....

 Ive read the judgement  ..its in Portuguese..im paraphrasing
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:24:24 PM
Ive read the judgement  ..its in Portuguese..im paraphrasing

you have no idea in in other words.......he didnt cover up torture as you alledge.......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 08:25:20 PM
do you know anything about the case . she was blindfolded so couldn't identify her attackers but the court accepted that torture had taken place. The PJ officers involved said she had fallen down the stairs and were proved in court to be liars

 Can you imaging if she was found to be telling the truth ? The police would have to open Joanna's case and it could cost millions .then how bad is it going to look ?

Portugal don't need any more bad publicity .

I think amaral is going to come out smelling of roses unless Madeleine is found
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 06, 2013, 08:26:16 PM
Joana case is very strange indeed..she could very well be alive..I think child trafficking is involved in huge way too.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:27:41 PM
you have no idea in in other words.......he didnt cover up torture as you alledge.......


May 2009
 
 


Gonçalo Amaral receives a one and a half year suspended sentence Jornal de Noticias

 

22 May 2009 16h41m

Translation by Nigel Moore

 

Gonçalo Amaral was sentenced to a year and a half in prison, suspended, for misrepresentation of evidence in the case of aggressions against Leonor Cipriano.


 There are several different translations ..this is from the McCann Files...sounds like covering up to me
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
Can you imaging if she was found to be telling the truth ? The police would have to open Joanna's case and it could cost millions .then how bad is it going to look ?

Portugal don't need any more bad publicity .

I think amaral is going to come out smelling of roses unless Madeleine is found

So you are now accusing the pj of closing investigations and/or accusing innocents of crimes to save money...how sad is that
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:29:42 PM
Joana case is very strange indeed..she could very well be alive..I think child trafficking is involved in huge way too.

yea the mother said her brother tried to  traffick her and faiked and then killed her.....



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 06, 2013, 08:31:55 PM

Cipriano is a convicted liar.

You do not know she has told the truth.

Liars by their very nature aren't inclined to do that.

As to Joana, YES feel sorry for what happened to her.

To be fair, Amaral is also a convicted perjurer.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 06, 2013, 08:32:00 PM
yea the mother said her brother tried to  traffick her and faiked and then killed her.....



http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

 theres absolutely no evidence apart from that gained by torture or threat of torture to support that
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:32:06 PM
No lol how did you get that from my last post

I do not think after all Portugal
 Has had to go through with the mccanns they need more shit .
Nothing at all about closing a case

Yeh sorry if i got the wrong end of the stick with this post.......

 Can you imaging if she was found to be telling the truth ? The police would have to open Joanna's case and it could cost millions .then how bad is it going to look ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 06, 2013, 08:35:08 PM
theres absolutely no evidence apart from that gained by torture or threat of torture to support that

you have to post your evidence of  torture or threat of torture was used when leonor wrote that statement in 2009...off  you go and produce it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 08:50:07 PM
In comments to The Portugal News this week the Ciprianos' lawyer, João Grade, said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
He also failed to rule out the possibility that Joana had been sold, especially after someone linked to the family made a €50,000 bank deposit in the days after her disappearance.
 
A letter written by João from jail to Leonor, which was intercepted by the authorities, also made reference to the exchange of cash and that "a grown-up Joana would one day probably return to Portugal".


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 08:54:36 PM
In comments to The Portugal News this week the Ciprianos' lawyer, João Grade, said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
He also failed to rule out the possibility that Joana had been sold, especially after someone linked to the family made a €50,000 bank deposit in the days after her disappearance.
 
A letter written by João from jail to Leonor, which was intercepted by the authorities, also made reference to the exchange of cash and that "a grown-up Joana would one day probably return to Portugal".


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 09:11:37 PM
In comments to The Portugal News this week the Ciprianos' lawyer, João Grade, said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
He also failed to rule out the possibility that Joana had been sold, especially after someone linked to the family made a €50,000 bank deposit in the days after her disappearance.
 
A letter written by João from jail to Leonor, which was intercepted by the authorities, also made reference to the exchange of cash and that "a grown-up Joana would one day probably return to Portugal".


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 06, 2013, 11:59:35 PM
In comments to The Portugal News this week the Ciprianos' lawyer, João Grade, said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
He also failed to rule out the possibility that Joana had been sold, especially after someone linked to the family made a €50,000 bank deposit in the days after her disappearance.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id176.html

19 June 2007
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Kazcutt on November 07, 2013, 01:56:46 AM
The night of 12 September 2004 was a festival night in the Aldeia da Figueira. The traditional São Miguel party was underway as shown in these amateur videos given to RTP, which show no signs of Joana. But in one scene you can see António Leandro, the girl's stepfather.
 
The Portimão GNR continued with searches over the following days around the Aldeia da Figueira. Posters about the disappearance were put up. But there were no traces of Joana.
 
The mother began giving interviews to the media.
 
Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother: "Everyone in the café says, 'This is a badly told story. A girl disappearing, suddenly... it was someone from outside who headed for Lisbon and took her in a car.'"
 
Four days later, the case of the missing 8 year old girl is transferred to the PJ in Portimão. Another four days later, it is transferred to the PJ Directory in Faro. The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted.
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação, Director, PJ Faro: "In this investigation, we covered about 50,000 kilometres. 2100 official processes were created. We assigned approximately 40 inspectors and requested approximately 40 exams from the Scientific Police Laboratory and the Legal Medical Institute."
 
Leonor Cipriano continued to give interviews.
 
Leonor Cipriano: "I'm very sad. I think my daughter is really missing her mother. I just ask that anyone who knows about my daughter, that you don't hurt her. And that you can bring her to me."
 
Interviewer: "Where do you think your daughter could be right now?"

Leonor Cipriano: "There are only guesses. If she is alive, or not, if she's hurt. I don't know, there's no explanation for my daughter… I don't know, I don't know."
 
Without any clues, the PJ inspectors did find discrepancies. The statements of Joana's mother, the uncle and the other family members do not coincide.
 
Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened."
 
Leonor is taken in by the PJ on the 21 September, eleven days after her daughter disappeared. The girl's uncle, João Cipriano, remained free for one more day but was also arrested under suspicion of homicide.
 
In the next few days, João took the PJ inspectors to dozens of different locations to point out Joana's body. But the body was not found in any of those places.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "At that time, it became, as if it were a fact, to the police that she was playing with us … She was sending a message, a message to perhaps say that the body was cut up or the body no longer existed. But, at the same time, all the diligences constituted evidence. This permitted us, as would come to happen in the trial, to speak about them, because they were diligences in which we participated and not witness statements of the arguidos. We aren't talking about declarations by arguidos, we are talking about giving witness to the diligences that we did and why we did these diligences and went to these places. On the other hand, it would not have happened, for him to indicate where to find the body or the rest of the body or pieces of the body and we then didn't go. We always had to go. And that's what happened."
 
The PJ's theory was that the body was fed to the pigs, a theory that was not proven in court. Shocked by this macabre story, hundreds of locals invaded the village searching for answers. The same answers for which the PJ were searching. Why was Joana killed? And where is her body?
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "In principal, this is a disappearance. And this crime is always, excuse me, this crime doesn't have a juridic framework but could have behind it a series of crimes, a kidnapping, an abduction, human trafficking, criminal associations, so that any of these crimes could be behind a disappearance. And the complexity begins right there."
 
Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys.
 
Sara Rosado, João Cipriano's lawyer: "I imagine that all the pressure surrounding this process, generated that, those declarations, as well as others in opposite and various directions, with other details, with other facts. As for the rest, the version that you find constituted in the video doesn't even adhere to the accusation. That is, the actual accusation didn't even follow this theory if you examine certain details. And, in fact, only the pressure that … one of these was the enormous pressure on everyone, including the arguidos who were arrested and so…"
 
RTP requested authorization from the Portimão Court to emit in this report a short excerpt of the video but the judge in charge denied the request invoking the "image rights" of those who appear in the video.
 
João Cipriano also directed a photographic reconstitution where, with the help of a mannequin, he explained how he cut Joana's body into three parts.
 
According to the accusations from the Public Ministry, the three body pieces were placed in black sacks in the small refrigerator during the first few hours. In the various exams done by technicians from the Scientific Police Lab at Joana's house, human blood was found in one of the drawers inside the refrigerator. But DNA tests did not prove that the blood was Joana's.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "It is just one of the versions that was given, and we continue to find viable and credible because blood was found in a chink on one of the refrigerator drawers. A drop of blood in the drawer. Someone opens [the refrigerator] and lets some blood run. The blood ran into the drawer and was cleaned, so it only remained in the chinks, in the areas that are difficult to clean. The explanation was necessary given the circumstances in which the homicide occurred, as this was not a prepared or planned homicide, it was a homicide "in loco." It happened, in the way everyone knows, and they had to hide the body. It's viable and an alternative that they may have used and tried, during the first phase while thinking about what to do with the body, to hide the body in the refrigerator."
 
During the trial, it was also proven that the body pieces would only have fit in the refrigerator if that drawer in which they found human blood had been removed from the refrigerator.
 
Sara Rosado: "The doctor who attended the diligences and testified in court affirmed that, very tightly, [the body] would fit. But only by removing the drawer. There was blood found on the back of the alleged drawer, having removed the drawer, but the doctor said the arguidos were surprised with this. It was an idea that had never occurred to them. So I don't think anything like this happened."
 
Many more vestiges of blood were found in Joana's house. Using ultraviolet light, they found blood on the walls by the door: traces of facial and hand impressions from a child of the family, but which could not be proved to be Joana's. Also by the light switch, near the front door, there was found a bit of blood from Ruben, Joana's younger brother who also lived in the house.
 
João Grade, Leonor Cipriano's second lawyer (former lawyer): "There was not blood in so many different areas... there were various exams done... just vestiges of human blood, which is normal. A housewife only has to cut herself peeling potatoes while watching a soap opera, only has to have a cut, to have blood, it just has to fall on the ground, it has to be cleaned as anyone of us would clean, and then with rigorous exams you could conclude that there were vestiges of blood. It doesn't say anything. In any of our houses, there could be blood like this."
 
On the floor of the house and on a mop handle, there were found a mixture of human and animal blood. These exams were also inconclusive.
 
Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station. There was an attempt, that you might say worked well, to inhibit any laboratory results. As many vestiges as possible were obtained, given the circumstances, and the conclusion is that it was human blood. According to the court, and I agree, something serious happened in that house, on that day. And the conclusion was that it was a homicide."
 
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
 
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
 
In February 2005, photographs were published of Leonor with significant bruising (Marinho Pinto Expresso Newspaper Article). The trial will begin soon of four inspectors charged with torture, and Gonçalo Amaral of the crime of false witness and failure to denounce [inappropriate police behaviour].
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
 
Leonor and João opted to remain silent throughout the entire trial. In November 2005 they were charged with qualified homicide and hiding a cadaver. Leonor was condemned to 20 years and 4 months in prison, and João to 19 years and 2 months. The three jury members and four judges felt that the brother and sister did not intend to kill the child but gave, as proven, that the body was dismembered though they were not convinced it was kept in the refrigerator. Nor was it proven that the child was killed because she caught the mother and her brother having sex. The defense attorneys and the Public Ministry presented an appeal, reducing the penalty to 16 years and 8 month.
 
With a lot of doubts still to be clarified, Leonor's attorney presented another appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
 
João Grade: "It's more than frustrating that we do not know what happened. We have this other child who disappeared 10 years ago, when eight years old, and now has returned at eighteen years old. We don't know whether Joana is going to appear twenty years from now, or four years from now, alive or dead, I don't know."
 
RTP wanted to talk to Leonor and João, currently serving their sentences in the Odimera and Carregeira prisons. Leonor sent a signed letter, where she agreed to give an interview. Two days after making a request to the Prison Director, that service sent us a newly signed letter when Leonor rescinded her agreement because of "lack of understanding".
 
João Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhão prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie. My sister told me that Joana was fine. She told me that she had sold Joana to a foreign couple."
 
It remains to be known, what was Joana's destiny.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 07, 2013, 09:20:55 AM


How could any Appeal Court find this guilty verdict to be safe?

No motive established
No relevant forensic evidence produced.
No trace of a body ever found.
Torture by the PJ at the police station established in court.
A cover up of said torture by PJ officers proved in court.
Sentences imposed on PJ officers, and subsequent 'appeals' thrown out.

Verdict re LC?  -   Guilty M'lud.   

Totally bizarre imo.






Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 07, 2013, 09:47:12 AM
Those of you who believe that LC is innocent and that Joana is alive, what are you doing about it?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 10:01:06 AM
The night of 12 September 2004 was a festival night in the Aldeia da Figueira. The traditional São Miguel party was underway as shown in these amateur videos given to RTP, which show no signs of Joana. But in one scene you can see António Leandro, the girl's stepfather.
 
The Portimão GNR continued with searches over the following days around the Aldeia da Figueira. Posters about the disappearance were put up. But there were no traces of Joana.
 
The mother began giving interviews to the media.
 
Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother: "Everyone in the café says, 'This is a badly told story. A girl disappearing, suddenly... it was someone from outside who headed for Lisbon and took her in a car.'"
 
Four days later, the case of the missing 8 year old girl is transferred to the PJ in Portimão. Another four days later, it is transferred to the PJ Directory in Faro. The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted.
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação, Director, PJ Faro: "In this investigation, we covered about 50,000 kilometres. 2100 official processes were created. We assigned approximately 40 inspectors and requested approximately 40 exams from the Scientific Police Laboratory and the Legal Medical Institute."
 
Leonor Cipriano continued to give interviews.
 
Leonor Cipriano: "I'm very sad. I think my daughter is really missing her mother. I just ask that anyone who knows about my daughter, that you don't hurt her. And that you can bring her to me."
 
Interviewer: "Where do you think your daughter could be right now?"

Leonor Cipriano: "There are only guesses. If she is alive, or not, if she's hurt. I don't know, there's no explanation for my daughter… I don't know, I don't know."
 
Without any clues, the PJ inspectors did find discrepancies. The statements of Joana's mother, the uncle and the other family members do not coincide.
 
Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened."
 
Leonor is taken in by the PJ on the 21 September, eleven days after her daughter disappeared. The girl's uncle, João Cipriano, remained free for one more day but was also arrested under suspicion of homicide.
 
In the next few days, João took the PJ inspectors to dozens of different locations to point out Joana's body. But the body was not found in any of those places.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "At that time, it became, as if it were a fact, to the police that she was playing with us … She was sending a message, a message to perhaps say that the body was cut up or the body no longer existed. But, at the same time, all the diligences constituted evidence. This permitted us, as would come to happen in the trial, to speak about them, because they were diligences in which we participated and not witness statements of the arguidos. We aren't talking about declarations by arguidos, we are talking about giving witness to the diligences that we did and why we did these diligences and went to these places. On the other hand, it would not have happened, for him to indicate where to find the body or the rest of the body or pieces of the body and we then didn't go. We always had to go. And that's what happened."
 
The PJ's theory was that the body was fed to the pigs, a theory that was not proven in court. Shocked by this macabre story, hundreds of locals invaded the village searching for answers. The same answers for which the PJ were searching. Why was Joana killed? And where is her body?
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "In principal, this is a disappearance. And this crime is always, excuse me, this crime doesn't have a juridic framework but could have behind it a series of crimes, a kidnapping, an abduction, human trafficking, criminal associations, so that any of these crimes could be behind a disappearance. And the complexity begins right there."
 
Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys.
 
Sara Rosado, João Cipriano's lawyer: "I imagine that all the pressure surrounding this process, generated that, those declarations, as well as others in opposite and various directions, with other details, with other facts. As for the rest, the version that you find constituted in the video doesn't even adhere to the accusation. That is, the actual accusation didn't even follow this theory if you examine certain details. And, in fact, only the pressure that … one of these was the enormous pressure on everyone, including the arguidos who were arrested and so…"
 
RTP requested authorization from the Portimão Court to emit in this report a short excerpt of the video but the judge in charge denied the request invoking the "image rights" of those who appear in the video.
 
João Cipriano also directed a photographic reconstitution where, with the help of a mannequin, he explained how he cut Joana's body into three parts.
 
According to the accusations from the Public Ministry, the three body pieces were placed in black sacks in the small refrigerator during the first few hours. In the various exams done by technicians from the Scientific Police Lab at Joana's house, human blood was found in one of the drawers inside the refrigerator. But DNA tests did not prove that the blood was Joana's.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "It is just one of the versions that was given, and we continue to find viable and credible because blood was found in a chink on one of the refrigerator drawers. A drop of blood in the drawer. Someone opens [the refrigerator] and lets some blood run. The blood ran into the drawer and was cleaned, so it only remained in the chinks, in the areas that are difficult to clean. The explanation was necessary given the circumstances in which the homicide occurred, as this was not a prepared or planned homicide, it was a homicide "in loco." It happened, in the way everyone knows, and they had to hide the body. It's viable and an alternative that they may have used and tried, during the first phase while thinking about what to do with the body, to hide the body in the refrigerator."
 
During the trial, it was also proven that the body pieces would only have fit in the refrigerator if that drawer in which they found human blood had been removed from the refrigerator.
 
Sara Rosado: "The doctor who attended the diligences and testified in court affirmed that, very tightly, [the body] would fit. But only by removing the drawer. There was blood found on the back of the alleged drawer, having removed the drawer, but the doctor said the arguidos were surprised with this. It was an idea that had never occurred to them. So I don't think anything like this happened."
 
Many more vestiges of blood were found in Joana's house. Using ultraviolet light, they found blood on the walls by the door: traces of facial and hand impressions from a child of the family, but which could not be proved to be Joana's. Also by the light switch, near the front door, there was found a bit of blood from Ruben, Joana's younger brother who also lived in the house.
 
João Grade, Leonor Cipriano's second lawyer (former lawyer): "There was not blood in so many different areas... there were various exams done... just vestiges of human blood, which is normal. A housewife only has to cut herself peeling potatoes while watching a soap opera, only has to have a cut, to have blood, it just has to fall on the ground, it has to be cleaned as anyone of us would clean, and then with rigorous exams you could conclude that there were vestiges of blood. It doesn't say anything. In any of our houses, there could be blood like this."
 
On the floor of the house and on a mop handle, there were found a mixture of human and animal blood. These exams were also inconclusive.
 
Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.
 
Gonçalo Amaral: "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station. There was an attempt, that you might say worked well, to inhibit any laboratory results. As many vestiges as possible were obtained, given the circumstances, and the conclusion is that it was human blood. According to the court, and I agree, something serious happened in that house, on that day. And the conclusion was that it was a homicide."
 
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
 
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
 
In February 2005, photographs were published of Leonor with significant bruising (Marinho Pinto Expresso Newspaper Article). The trial will begin soon of four inspectors charged with torture, and Gonçalo Amaral of the crime of false witness and failure to denounce [inappropriate police behaviour].
 
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
 
Leonor and João opted to remain silent throughout the entire trial. In November 2005 they were charged with qualified homicide and hiding a cadaver. Leonor was condemned to 20 years and 4 months in prison, and João to 19 years and 2 months. The three jury members and four judges felt that the brother and sister did not intend to kill the child but gave, as proven, that the body was dismembered though they were not convinced it was kept in the refrigerator. Nor was it proven that the child was killed because she caught the mother and her brother having sex. The defense attorneys and the Public Ministry presented an appeal, reducing the penalty to 16 years and 8 month.
 
With a lot of doubts still to be clarified, Leonor's attorney presented another appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
 
João Grade: "It's more than frustrating that we do not know what happened. We have this other child who disappeared 10 years ago, when eight years old, and now has returned at eighteen years old. We don't know whether Joana is going to appear twenty years from now, or four years from now, alive or dead, I don't know."
 
RTP wanted to talk to Leonor and João, currently serving their sentences in the Odimera and Carregeira prisons. Leonor sent a signed letter, where she agreed to give an interview. Two days after making a request to the Prison Director, that service sent us a newly signed letter when Leonor rescinded her agreement because of "lack of understanding".
 
João Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhão prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie. My sister told me that Joana was fine. She told me that she had sold Joana to a foreign couple."
 
It remains to be known, what was Joana's destiny.

This is such a disgrace.  How on earth those two were convicted is completely beyond me. 
But perhaps more to the point, all that rubbish about Fridges worked, despite no proof, so Amaral decided to try it on again.  And then produced even more rubbish about thawed out ice that no one ever saw or obtained Forensics from.

There is something very seriously wrong with a Judicial System that allows men like Amaral to so influence cases that people can be convicted on nothing at all.  And then allows him to coordinate another similar case.
Fortunately he picked on the wrong people the second time around.  And there weren't any pigs handy in PdL.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 12:06:38 PM
This is such a disgrace.  How on earth those two were convicted is completely beyond me. 
But perhaps more to the point, all that rubbish about Fridges worked, despite no proof, so Amaral decided to try it on again.  And then produced even more rubbish about thawed out ice that no one ever saw or obtained Forensics from.

There is something very seriously wrong with a Judicial System that allows men like Amaral to so influence cases that people can be convicted on nothing at all.  And then allows him to coordinate another similar case.
Fortunately he picked on the wrong people the second time around.  And there weren't any pigs handy in PdL.

But perhaps more to the point, all that rubbish about Fridges worked, despite no proof, so Amaral decided to try it on again.  *And then produced even more rubbish about thawed out ice that no one ever saw or obtained Forensics from.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

*Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.

The book at stake in this process – "Maddie – the Truth of the Lie" – which was written by the defendant Dr. Gonçalo Amaral, has the main motivation of defending his personal and professional honour, as the author points out right away in the preface and throughout his text.

The contents of the book does not offend any of the applicants' fundamental rights.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 12:27:23 PM
But perhaps more to the point, all that rubbish about Fridges worked, despite no proof, so Amaral decided to try it on again.  *And then produced even more rubbish about thawed out ice that no one ever saw or obtained Forensics from.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

*Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.

The book at stake in this process – "Maddie – the Truth of the Lie" – which was written by the defendant Dr. Gonçalo Amaral, has the main motivation of defending his personal and professional honour, as the author points out right away in the preface and throughout his text.

The contents of the book does not offend any of the applicants' fundamental rights.

This is for a Court to decide.  Freedom of Opinion has it's limits, even in The Portuguese Constitution.

What personal and professional honour does Goncalo Ameral have left?  He is a convicted Fraudster and a Convicted Liar.  All of which happened before The McCanns ever went to Portugal.
And don't imagine that The Judge doesn't know this.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 07, 2013, 12:34:18 PM
Those of you who believe that LC is innocent and that Joana is alive, what are you doing about it?

 We cant do anything about it for lots of very good reasons
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
This is for a Court to decide.  Freedom of Opinion has it's limits, even in The Portuguese Constitution.

What personal and professional honour does Goncalo Ameral have left?  He is a convicted Fraudster and a Convicted Liar.  All of which happened before The McCanns ever went to Portugal.
And don't imagine that The Judge doesn't know this.


This is for a Court to decide. Freedom of Opinion has it's limits, even in The Portuguese Constitution.


They already did.  And this decision was not overturned by the supreme court.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

We conclude that the applicants voluntarily decided to limit their right to the intimacy of private life, certainly envisaging higher values like the discovery of their daughter Madeleine's whereabouts, but upon voluntarily limiting that right, they opened the doors for other people to give their opinion about the case, in synchrony with what they were saying, but also possibly in contradiction with their directions, yet always within the bounds of a legitimate and constitutionally consecrated right to opinion and freedom of expression of thought.

We do not see that the right of the book's author, the defendant, can be limited by a right to the reservation of intimacy that suffered voluntary limitations by their holders, the applicants.

In the same way, concerning the applicants' right to image and a good name: upon placing the case in the public square and giving it worldwide notoriety, the applicants opened all doors to all opinions, even those that are adversarial to them.

Lisbon and Appeals Court, 14.10.2010

The Appellate Court Judges,

Francisco Bruto da Costa
Catarina Arelo Manso
António Valente
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 07, 2013, 12:38:41 PM

This is for a Court to decide. Freedom of Opinion has it's limits, even in The Portuguese Constitution.


They already did.  And this decision was not overturned by the supreme court.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

We conclude that the applicants voluntarily decided to limit their right to the intimacy of private life, certainly envisaging higher values like the discovery of their daughter Madeleine's whereabouts, but upon voluntarily limiting that right, they opened the doors for other people to give their opinion about the case, in synchrony with what they were saying, but also possibly in contradiction with their directions, yet always within the bounds of a legitimate and constitutionally consecrated right to opinion and freedom of expression of thought.

We do not see that the right of the book's author, the defendant, can be limited by a right to the reservation of intimacy that suffered voluntary limitations by their holders, the applicants.

In the same way, concerning the applicants' right to image and a good name: upon placing the case in the public square and giving it worldwide notoriety, the applicants opened all doors to all opinions, even those that are adversarial to them.

Lisbon and Appeals Court, 14.10.2010

The Appellate Court Judges,

Francisco Bruto da Costa
Catarina Arelo Manso
António Valente

 You seem to think the case is settled, from what I have read you are totally wrong. The judgement so far is an interim judgement and can be overturned by the court in the present libel case
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 12:58:49 PM

The Court did not open the Right to Libel.  That has still to be decided upon.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 01:06:08 PM
You seem to think the case is settled, from what I have read you are totally wrong. The judgement so far is an interim judgement and can be overturned by the court in the present libel case

Do you think the freedom of expression laws will be re written for the McCanns?

Are they really that special?

The McCanns appealed to the supreme court & they did not overturn the previous courts decisions on,
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

right to a fair investigation

right to freedom and safety

right to image and a good name


Based on the witness statements of the current trial , Do you think the current judge will overturn 2 previous court rulings?
 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 01:19:10 PM
Do you think the freedom of expression laws will be re written for the McCanns?

Are they really that special?

The McCanns appealed to the supreme court & they did not overturn the previous courts decisions on,
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

right to a fair investigation

right to freedom and safety

right to image and a good name


Based on the witness statements of the current trial , Do you think the current judge will overturn 2 previous court rulings?

She won't necessarily be overturning previous Court Rulings.  An Injunction is not the same as A Libel Trial.  Any fool should be able to see that.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 07, 2013, 03:56:17 PM
She won't necessarily be overturning previous Court Rulings.  An Injunction is not the same as A Libel Trial.  Any fool should be able to see that.

This current trial is about damages to the parents and children and how the book allegedly harmed the search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 07, 2013, 04:09:16 PM

How could any Appeal Court find this guilty verdict to be safe?

No motive established
No relevant forensic evidence produced.
No trace of a body ever found.
Torture by the PJ at the police station established in court.
A cover up of said torture by PJ officers proved in court.
Sentences imposed on PJ officers, and subsequent 'appeals' thrown out.

Verdict re LC?  -   Guilty M'lud.   

Totally bizarre imo.

No  'motive' was established  ?

A child was beaten so savagely that she died of her injuries !

When an adult beats a child they are not  'motivated'  by anything other than their own unspeakably  sadistic nature
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 07, 2013, 04:09:30 PM



There is something very seriously wrong with a Judicial System that allows men like Amaral to so influence cases that people can be convicted on nothing at all. 

You should read post 80


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 07, 2013, 04:17:10 PM
No  'motive' was established  ?

A child was beaten so savagely that she died of her injuries !

When an adult beats a child they are not  'motivated'  by anything other than their own unspeakably  sadistic nature

 
The 'motive' is usually considered to be of major importance in a court case where someone is accused of murder.

The court threw out the alleged motive.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 04:19:49 PM
This current trial is about damages to the parents and children and how the book allegedly harmed the search for Madeleine.

Thank you, Montclair.  Still a matter for conclusion.  Otherwise why the hell would this Trial be going on.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 07, 2013, 04:24:13 PM
 
The 'motive' is usually considered to be of major importance in a court case where someone is accused of murder.

The court threw out the alleged motive.

Well we will have to disagree on the importance of  'motive'   in this case  ...  or any other case involving children who have died as a result of physical abuse from an adult

When I see yet another sad case on the news,  like Vicoria Climbie,  or baby P,   I do not  sit and wonder what  motivated  the sadists who killed them 

Do you Benice  ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 04:34:58 PM
Well we will have to disagree on the importance of  'motive'   in this case  ...  or any other case involving children who have died as a result of physical abuse from an adult

When I see yet another sad case on the news,  like Vicoria Climbie,  or baby P,   I do not  sit and wonder what  motivated  the sadists who killed them 

Do you Benice  ?

No, but at least we look for some proof.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 04:37:02 PM
Thank you, Montclair.  Still a matter for conclusion.  Otherwise why the hell would this Trial be going on.

So do you think any of the McCanns witnesses have proven that Amarals book,

Damaged the parents

Damaged the search
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 04:58:38 PM
So do you think any of the McCanns witnesses have proven that Amarals book,

Damaged the parents

Damaged the search

It certainly damaged The McCanns.  It didn't affect me.  But then I was just appalled by the fact that he had written it in the first place.

Witnesses are only witnesses, and Amaral's buddies haven't come across all that well.  Just a bunch of pals, as established by The Judge.  And half of them hadn't even read his skanky book.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 07, 2013, 05:00:24 PM
Well we will have to disagree on the importance of  'motive'   in this case  ...  or any other case involving children who have died as a result of physical abuse from an adult

When I see yet another sad case on the news,  like Vicoria Climbie,  or baby P,   I do not  sit and wonder what  motivated  the sadists who killed them 

Do you Benice  ?

Motive can be simply jealousy nothing more nothing less, or even feeling tied down wanting to only share a life with a partner and not have children who will take that persons affections etc. Its quite scary isnt it.

This is a very good article on Filicide...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058981
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 05:05:09 PM
Motive can be simply jealousy nothing more nothing less, or even feeling tied down wanting to only share a life with a partner and not have children who will take that persons affections etc. Its quite scary isnt it.

This is a very good article on Filicide...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0058981

With her brother?  Where did he come into it?  And don't tell me that they were committing Incest.  Even The Portuguese Court threw that one out.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
It certainly damaged The McCanns.  It didn't affect me.  But then I was just appalled by the fact that he had written it in the first place.

Witnesses are only witnesses, and Amaral's buddies haven't come across all that well.  Just a bunch of pals, as established by The Judge.  And half of them hadn't even read his skanky book.

It certainly damaged The McCanns. 

Where is there proof of this?


Amaral's buddies haven't come across all that well.  Just a bunch of pals, as established by The Judge.

Where is there proof the Judge established this?


And half of them hadn't even read his skanky book.

And proof of this?

Moita Flores.
The Judge – Have you read the book?
MF says he did.

Ricardo Paiva
GP – Have you read the GA book?
RP says "yes" and adds he read various books by Gonçalo Amaral.

Manuel Catarino
SO – Have you read GA's book?
MC says he did.

Tavares de Almeida
The Judge asks the witness if he has read GA's book.
TA says he only read the final part.



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 07, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
It certainly damaged The McCanns.  It didn't affect me.  But then I was just appalled by the fact that he had written it in the first place.

Witnesses are only witnesses, and Amaral's buddies haven't come across all that well.  Just a bunch of pals, as established by The Judge.  And half of them hadn't even read his skanky book.

We shall see who the skanks are in this case, rest assured......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 07, 2013, 05:32:25 PM
Well we will have to disagree on the importance of  'motive'   in this case  ...  or any other case involving children who have died as a result of physical abuse from an adult

When I see yet another sad case on the news,  like Vicoria Climbie,  or baby P,   I do not  sit and wonder what  motivated  the sadists who killed them 

Do you Benice  ?

There is no comparison between prolonged sadistic abuse over many months/years - and a mother apparently murdering her daughter in a fit of anger because she was caught in an incestuous act.    The court did not believe that happened - and no other motive was offered.     

So with no motive and no forensic evidence to prove any of the claims made by the PJ and a 'confession' retracted on the grounds that she had been tortured  - how on earth was this lady found guilty?   

Furthermore since the torture of LC  has been established in a Portuguese court of law and so nothing in her confession can be regarded as remotely credible let alone reliable - why is she still in prison?



 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 07, 2013, 06:59:54 PM
It certainly damaged The McCanns.

Where is there proof of this?


Amaral's buddies haven't come across all that well.  Just a bunch of pals, as established by The Judge.

Where is there proof the Judge established this?


And half of them hadn't even read his skanky book.

And proof of this?

Moita Flores.
The Judge – Have you read the book?
MF says he did.

Ricardo Paiva
GP – Have you read the GA book?
RP says "yes" and adds he read various books by Gonçalo Amaral.

Manuel Catarino
SO – Have you read GA's book?
MC says he did.

Tavares de Almeida
The Judge asks the witness if he has read GA's book.
TA says he only read the final part.

 I think you will find if you check each witness statement that half of them hadn't read the book  almeida admitted in your post he hadnt
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 07:07:54 PM
I think you will find if you check each witness statement that half of them hadn't read the book  almeida admitted in your post he hadnt

How many witnesses for GA defence has there been?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 08, 2013, 06:57:30 AM
There is no comparison between prolonged sadistic abuse over many months/years - and a mother apparently murdering her daughter in a fit of anger because she was caught in an incestuous act.    The court did not believe that happened - and no other motive was offered.     

So with no motive and no forensic evidence to prove any of the claims made by the PJ and a 'confession' retracted on the grounds that she had been tortured  - how on earth was this lady found guilty?   

Furthermore since the torture of LC  has been established in a Portuguese court of law and so nothing in her confession can be regarded as remotely credible let alone reliable - why is she still in prison?



SHOW me a link where she is NOT GUILTY of this heinous crime.

Please I will be very interested.

I find it quite abhorrent almost sickening that anyone would keep pushing this case to make a point about a supposed corrupt COPPER on another case of a child abducted a BRITISH child.

It actually physically makes me feel sick to my stomach that people will keep pushing this case not for justice of the little girl who was murdered and cut up into pieces, but to just make a POINT about Mr Amaral.


IF Mr Amaral had not been involved in the Leonor Cipriano case you would not even be bothered with it?

People should be ashamed of themselves for using this case to sway others about another. 8()(((@#

Without actually googling it can you name the child who was murdered by her mother and uncle? Do you know her age, how and when she went missing?

Do you actually know ANYTHING about this case PRIOR to Mr Amaral saying he thought the McCanns were implicit in their daughters case...can you actually tell me when she died? What year was it?

Its disgraceful this case keeps being dragged up.

It serves no purpose and I am surprised it is allowed to stand as it has nothing to do with the Maddy case nothing at all....

Just so that others can see this is the little girl who's mother and uncle killed and cut up because allegedly she saw them having incestuous sex...either way THEY killed her were responsible for her demise and were found guilty.

(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/MrsAristotle/joanacipriano_zps4e12a430.jpg)

ALL the officers who were accused of beating her were found not guilty....

Its appalling really that she complained of being beaten by the police but was quite happy to do the same to her own daughter which resulted in her death.


Extracts from Supreme Court of Justice - ruling on the Homicide and concealment of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano's body, 20.04.2006

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so.

(...)

aah) the arguidos managed to disturb the investigative activities and prevented the mortal remains of minor CC, whose life they took, from being located;

aai) the aforementioned activities were carried out by the arguidos under concerted efforts and intentions, in a deliberate, free and conscious manner, fully knowing that those behaviours are punished by law;

aaj) therefore as far as taking the life of CC, their direct relative (daughter and niece), is concerned, which they did by employing force, taking advantage of the fact that she couldn’t defend herself (taking into account her age and physical built) and using force in the full knowledge that, considering the vital area in which her body was hit (the head) repeatedly and violently, prompting the minor’s head to hit the wall, they could take her life away from her, a consequence which they accepted, still not ceasing their activity;

aal) not seeing as an obstacle the circumstance that the minor depended on her mother and was a direct relative of both, and should be defended instead of victimised by them;

aam) in the same deliberate, free and conscious manner, and knowing that such behaviour is punishable, they carried out the above described action of cutting CC’s body, demonstrating total insensibility, knowing full well that, in this manner, they offended the communitarian respect that is due to the dead, acting with the purpose of CC’s body never being found again, hiding it in a location that is not appropriated for the effect, in order to try to avoid responsibility for her death;




Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 07:22:48 AM
SHOW me a link where she is NOT GUILTY of this heinous crime.

Please I will be very interested.

I find it quite abhorrent almost sickening that anyone would keep pushing this case to make a point about a supposed corrupt COPPER on another case of a child abducted a BRITISH child.

It actually physically makes me feel sick to my stomach that people will keep pushing this case not for justice of the little girl who was murdered and cut up into pieces, but to just make a POINT about Mr Amaral.


IF Mr Amaral had not been involved in the Leonor Cipriano case you would not even be bothered with it?

People should be ashamed of themselves for using this case to sway others about another. 8()(((@#

Without actually googling it can you name the child who was murdered by her mother and uncle? Do you know her age, how and when she went missing?

Do you actually know ANYTHING about this case PRIOR to Mr Amaral saying he thought the McCanns were implicit in their daughters case...can you actually tell me when she died? What year was it?

Its disgraceful this case keeps being dragged up.

It serves no purpose and I am surprised it is allowed to stand as it has nothing to do with the Maddy case nothing at all....

Just so that others can see this is the little girl who's mother and uncle killed and cut up because allegedly she saw them having incestuous sex...either way THEY killed her were responsible for her demise and were found guilty.

(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/MrsAristotle/joanacipriano_zps4e12a430.jpg)

ALL the officers who were accused of beating her were found not guilty....

Its appalling really that she complained of being beaten by the police but was quite happy to do the same to her own daughter which resulted in her death.


Extracts from Supreme Court of Justice - ruling on the Homicide and concealment of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano's body, 20.04.2006

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so.

(...)

aah) the arguidos managed to disturb the investigative activities and prevented the mortal remains of minor CC, whose life they took, from being located;

aai) the aforementioned activities were carried out by the arguidos under concerted efforts and intentions, in a deliberate, free and conscious manner, fully knowing that those behaviours are punished by law;

aaj) therefore as far as taking the life of CC, their direct relative (daughter and niece), is concerned, which they did by employing force, taking advantage of the fact that she couldn’t defend herself (taking into account her age and physical built) and using force in the full knowledge that, considering the vital area in which her body was hit (the head) repeatedly and violently, prompting the minor’s head to hit the wall, they could take her life away from her, a consequence which they accepted, still not ceasing their activity;

aal) not seeing as an obstacle the circumstance that the minor depended on her mother and was a direct relative of both, and should be defended instead of victimised by them;

aam) in the same deliberate, free and conscious manner, and knowing that such behaviour is punishable, they carried out the above described action of cutting CC’s body, demonstrating total insensibility, knowing full well that, in this manner, they offended the communitarian respect that is due to the dead, acting with the purpose of CC’s body never being found again, hiding it in a location that is not appropriated for the effect, in order to try to avoid responsibility for her death;

 I will say again..this case may well be a case of miscarriage of justice. could you tell me what evidence there is to convict.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 08, 2013, 07:53:41 AM
I will say again..this case may well be a case of miscarriage of justice. could you tell me what evidence there is to convict.

Do you believe that Joana is alive then?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 07:59:53 AM
Do you believe that Joana is alive then?
I have no idea..al I am saying is that the evidence looks poor. I don't understand why the pj did not test the fridge blood for dna...its as though they don't care about evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 08, 2013, 09:11:17 AM
I have no idea..al I am saying is that the evidence looks poor. I don't understand why the pj did not test the fridge blood for dna...its as though they don't care about evidence

I did more reading on this case yesterday, and I'll do some more today. A lot of the links are in Portuguese and those which aren't are related to The Mccann case. If I learn anything of value, I'll share it here.

If you have any links which you think are informative can you post them or PM me please?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 08, 2013, 10:22:24 AM
I will say again..this case may well be a case of miscarriage of justice. could you tell me what evidence there is to convict.

Totally agree.     

Apparently part of the prosecution evidence presented to the court as proof of guilt  was that LC wore a black blouse at some time after her daughter disappeared! 

Amongst the 29 'facts' which the court threw out I noticed  that the Court did not  believe that LC or her brother changed their clothes after they had done the deed - and went out that night wearing the same clothes.     So - apparently neither of them got a speck of blood on their clothes whilst dismembering a body with a saw and a knife and then handling the body parts.   I find that very hard to believe. 
 
Quote from facts NOT proved:

22- that the arguidos changed the clothes that they were wearing and that arguida BB, once again that night, washed the blood that had remained on the floor.
Unquote.

How anyone can believe that there is no chance that a Miscarriage of Justice occurred with this case - is beyond me.   

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 08, 2013, 10:36:02 AM
Totally agree.     

Apparently part of the prosecution evidence presented to the court as proof of guilt  was that LC wore a black blouse at some time after her daughter disappeared! 

Amongst the 29 'facts' which the court threw out I noticed  that the Court did not  believe that LC or her brother changed their clothes after they had done the deed - and went out that night wearing the same clothes.     So - apparently neither of them got a speck of blood on their clothes whilst dismembering a body with a saw and a knife and then handling the body parts.   I find that very hard to believe. 
 
Quote from facts NOT proved:

22- that the arguidos changed the clothes that they were wearing and that arguida BB, once again that night, washed the blood that had remained on the floor.
Unquote.

How anyone can believe that there is no chance that a Miscarriage of Justice occurred with this case - is beyond me.


There's a cover up somewhere..why I don't know..maybe to save face at solving a missing child case..what made this case more noticable..is the fact amaral used the exact  same theory in the madeleine case..thats why its being questioned by so many people..along with the lack of evidence..DNA blood etc.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 10:47:19 AM
No matter what nonsense is posted in relation to this case nobody has ever explained why Leonor Cipriano didn't phone the police when it was clear that her 8-year-old daughter was missing?

The truth being of course that she and her brother needed the time in order to clean up the crime scene.

There's none so blind as those who will not see!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 08, 2013, 11:01:36 AM
so tell me why this case has been reviewed so many times..there is obviously something not right.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 11:08:44 AM
No matter what nonsense is posted in relation to this case nobody has ever explained why Leonor Cipriano didn't phone the police when it was clear that her 8-year-old daughter was missing?

The truth being of course that she and her brother needed the time in order to clean up the crime scene.

There's none so blind as those who will not see!

no one has explained why  the pj didn't dna test the blood in the fridge..it seems an obvious thing to do..perhaps they feared that a real piece of evidence might destroy their case
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 08, 2013, 11:15:34 AM
so tell me why this case has been reviewed so many times..there is obviously something not right.

Once it had been accepted by the courts that brutal torture of the defendant(s) had taken place - then the guilty verdict should have automatically been seen as unsafe IMO.   Surely they could have ordered a re-trial if they still thought LC may be guilty.   One can only speculate on why they didn't do that.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 08, 2013, 11:19:50 AM
Once it had been accepted by the courts that brutal torture of the defendant(s) had taken place - then the guilty verdict should have automatically been seen as unsafe IMO.   Surely they could have ordered a re-trial if they still thought LC may be guilty.   One can only speculate on why they didn't do that.

not enough evidence..hence her beatings.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 08, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
so tell me why this case has been reviewed so many times..there is obviously something not right.

It hasnt been reviewed so many times...

I dont know why people just dont get it. They confessed BEFORE she was even beaten in front of her SOLICITOR. She had no bruises, or black eyes.... CONFESSED so did the uncle. That is one of the reasons I believe they got a shorter sentence, after all 16 years is not long for cold blooded murder of a child.

The only reviews were because she LIED and it had to go back to court. In April she was found guilty of LYING and her sentence was increased for wasting court time....its there why is it people cant find these facts?

Jeez why are we even discussing this case on a Madeliene thread in the first place. IF people are so interested in getting justice for the mother and uncle and get them released from prison then why dont you ask Admin to start a new thread just for that.

I followed this case in 2004 BEFORE Maddy, the only link is Amaral....again.....

Start a petition for Leonor Cipriano...RELEASE Leonor Cipriano for injustice. This poor women and her brother have been in prison for a crime they never committed.

The child was just in the way and must have died by someone elses hands, perhaps the same person who took Maddy........

You can start a petition on the Internet and send it to PORTUGESE Justice system, I am sure you will get lots of signatures to support your case.

But please can we move on to the case in hand.

Little Madeliene McCann who is lost.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: lizzibif. on November 08, 2013, 12:10:49 PM
The truth of the matter is that if Amaral hadn't made such a cock up in The McCann Case..and attempted to use the same scenario..in an attempt to stitch up The McCanns..then we would probably never have heard of The Ciprianos or of the terrible things that were done to them..Or of Amaral's Fraud against his brother..or his sordid love affair and tax fraud.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 08, 2013, 12:23:35 PM
It hasnt been reviewed so many times...

I dont know why people just dont get it. They confessed BEFORE she was even beaten in front of her SOLICITOR. She had no bruises, or black eyes.... CONFESSED so did the uncle. That is one of the reasons I believe they got a shorter sentence, after all 16 years is not long for cold blooded murder of a child.

The only reviews were because she LIED and it had to go back to court. In April she was found guilty of LYING and her sentence was increased for wasting court time....its there why is it people cant find these facts?

Jeez why are we even discussing this case on a Madeliene thread in the first place. IF people are so interested in getting justice for the mother and uncle and get them released from prison then why dont you ask Admin to start a new thread just for that.

I followed this case in 2004 BEFORE Maddy, the only link is Amaral....again.....

Start a petition for Leonor Cipriano...RELEASE Leonor Cipriano for injustice. This poor women and her brother have been in prison for a crime they never committed.

The child was just in the way and must have died by someone elses hands, perhaps the same person who took Maddy........

You can start a petition on the Internet and send it to PORTUGESE Justice system, I am sure you will get lots of signatures to support your case.

But please can we move on to the case in hand.

Little Madeliene McCann who is lost.

This thread is about the LC case.   If you don't approve - then you have the choice to ignore it.

LC was found guilty of mis-identifying her torturers.   The fact that she was tortured was not in dispute and was not part of that judgement.    The court's findings were that there was no proof that it was those PJ officers LC named who tortured her.   Therefore her torturers remain free.

IIRC the officers concerned dropped their own case for libel against LC some time ago.   If that is true then I would be interested to know who it was who brought this latest case to court.

 

   



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 08, 2013, 02:19:18 PM
This thread is about the LC case.   If you don't approve - then you have the choice to ignore it.

LC was found guilty of mis-identifying her torturers.   The fact that she was tortured was not in dispute and was not part of that judgement.    The court's findings were that there was no proof that it was those PJ officers LC named who tortured her.   Therefore her torturers remain free.

IIRC the officers concerned dropped their own case for libel against LC some time ago.   If that is true then I would be interested to know who it was who brought this latest case to court.

 

 

I think i am in the twilight zone.

This section of UK JUSTICE FORUM was supposed to be about the disappearance of Madeliene Mccann. The Cipriano case has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE McCann case.

I give up anyway it is pointless in wasting energy over those who cannot see because they are so blinkered by the necessity to discredit Mr Amaral anyway they can....

Time to move on I think this is nothing to do with finding Madeliene it is just a WITCH hunt for Mr Amaral.....

Poor Madeliene with friends like she has on most of these forums she will never be found......because people are too interested in burying Amaral...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 08, 2013, 02:21:56 PM
I think i am in the twilight zone.

This section of UK JUSTICE FORUM was supposed to be about the disappearance of Madeliene Mccann. The Cipriano case has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE McCann case.

I give up anyway it is pointless in wasting energy over those who cannot see because they are so blinkered by the necessity to discredit Mr Amaral anyway they can....

Time to move on I think this is nothing to do with finding Madeliene it is just a WITCH hunt for Mr Amaral.....

Poor Madeliene with friends like she has on most of these forums she will never be found......because people are too interested in burying Amaral...


Gonçalo Amaral

"From that couple, I already expect everything. Nonetheless, if in fact they are looking for their daughter, it is not in the Portuguese civil courts that they will find her"
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 02:28:10 PM
It hasnt been reviewed so many times...

I dont know why people just dont get it. They confessed BEFORE she was even beaten in front of her SOLICITOR. She had no bruises, or black eyes.... CONFESSED so did the uncle. That is one of the reasons I believe they got a shorter sentence, after all 16 years is not long for cold blooded murder of a child.

The only reviews were because she LIED and it had to go back to court. In April she was found guilty of LYING and her sentence was increased for wasting court time....its there why is it people cant find these facts?

[i]Jeez why are we even discussing this case on a Madeliene thread in the first place. IF people are so interested in getting justice for the mother and uncle and get them released from prison then why dont you ask Admin to start a new thread just for that.[/i]

I followed this case in 2004 BEFORE Maddy, the only link is Amaral....again.....

Start a petition for Leonor Cipriano...RELEASE Leonor Cipriano for injustice. This poor women and her brother have been in prison for a crime they never committed.

The child was just in the way and must have died by someone elses hands, perhaps the same person who took Maddy........

You can start a petition on the Internet and send it to PORTUGESE Justice system, I am sure you will get lots of signatures to support your case.

But please can we move on to the case in hand.

Little Madeliene McCann who is lost.

 if you read the opening thread it was started by Luz
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 08, 2013, 02:30:40 PM
if you read the opening thread it was started by Luz

No use trying to blame Luz, this was a split off thread......as is evident in the OPs first words
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 02:48:14 PM
I think i am in the twilight zone.

This section of UK JUSTICE FORUM was supposed to be about the disappearance of Madeliene Mccann. The Cipriano case has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE McCann case.

I give up anyway it is pointless in wasting energy over those who cannot see because they are so blinkered by the necessity to discredit Mr Amaral anyway they can....

Time to move on I think this is nothing to do with finding Madeliene it is just a WITCH hunt for Mr Amaral.....

Poor Madeliene with friends like she has on most of these forums she will never be found......because people are too interested in burying Amaral...
It has everything to do with the Madeleine Mccann case

Joana, a little fair haired girl vanished just SEVEN miles away from PdL

There were three abductions or likely abductions in less than 3 years.

All the girls were young (8 or under)  and all were fair haired/ blonde

Joana was one of the three likely abductees. 



All the abductions happened in a small area no more than about 18 miles across.

No other abductions in the period in the whole of PT. 
PT is about 2/3 the area of England.

All three in well under 3 years



Oh and then there are the officers involved, Amaral et al.

   
Also the fridge used by both The Ciprianos and The Mccanns


... and the selacious sex.  Leonor with her brother Joao .... and The Mccanns being "swingers"


Oh and the bag
1) to carry Joanas body parts away
2)  Non existent blue tennis bag to carry Madeleine away



I am sure I have left loads out that others can add.


Of course there is interest in the Joana Cipriano case with it unsafe verdict becos of NO body and TORTURE used to force out "NON EVIDENCE".



Along with the fact that Amaral is a Court proven liar. 
His co-hort Cristavao is currently about to stand trial for 7 (seven) counts of gangster type criminal activity.



Jeez anyone who cares to open their eyes the slightest bit can see the likely connections + the fact that the Leonor and Joao Cipriano verdicts are completely unsafe

... removed provocative comment ...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 08, 2013, 03:18:20 PM
snip///

(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/MrsAristotle/joanacipriano_zps4e12a430.jpg)




She's not fair haired sadie....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 04:39:41 PM
Totally agree.     

Apparently part of the prosecution evidence presented to the court as proof of guilt  was that LC wore a black blouse at some time after her daughter disappeared! 

Amongst the 29 'facts' which the court threw out I noticed  that the Court did not  believe that LC or her brother changed their clothes after they had done the deed - and went out that night wearing the same clothes.     So - apparently neither of them got a speck of blood on their clothes whilst dismembering a body with a saw and a knife and then handling the body parts.   I find that very hard to believe. 
 
Quote from facts NOT proved:

22- that the arguidos changed the clothes that they were wearing and that arguida BB, once again that night, washed the blood that had remained on the floor.
Unquote.

How anyone can believe that there is no chance that a Miscarriage of Justice occurred with this case - is beyond me.


Black top on a TV program [0.40], so Leonor must have dunit, donchathink?  Amaral and Co think this is part of the proof.  She is in mourning.for the daughter she murderd.

Oh but she is wearing her red trousers with it.  Her favourite long time outfit, but Amaral and co say that she dunit .... so she must have, donchathink?


Oh but the woman next to her is wearing a black top too [0.47].  Did she murder someone too?


Fancy, who ever would believe it, two women who must be mourning someone they killed .... and both on TV together.



Who ever would have believed it?  :Rolls eyes: in despair at some peoples 'lack of logic' and need to find stupid unsound reasons to accuse Leonor based upon such nonsense.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 08, 2013, 04:42:41 PM
She's not fair haired sadie....

Thank you Cariad, not fair at all. Waste of time lol. What will be will be. It seems its the new thing to befriend mothers who commit Filicide....... ?>)()< 8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 04:44:14 PM
She's not fair haired sadie....
Oh and there I was, thinking that she was.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0PRT7WgBWRI/TNCBrxOmg1I/AAAAAAAAABE/S-iPU7aKDls/s400/Image+4+Joana+Cipriano+(514+x+600).jpg)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
Thank you Cariad, not fair at all. Waste of time lol. What will be will be. It seems its the new thing to befriend mothers who commit Filicide....... ?>)()< 8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)

Oh crikey.  And I really thought that she was fair haired

(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg)

You [ censored word] are alwys right, aren't you?  @)(++(* 8(>((
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 05:05:23 PM
I really don't understand why some people can't accept that there was a possible miscarriage of justice in this case.

What irrefutable, cross-referenced, evidence proves what happened in this case?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 05:21:25 PM
Colombostomy

Do you think that torture should be used in cases that are difficult to prove?

Is Torture OK ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 08, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
Colombostomy

Do you thionk that torture should be used in cases that are difficult to prove?

Is Torture OK ?

My wife doesn't complain too much, mind you, I usually gag her quite well.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 05:27:30 PM
I really don't understand why some people can't accept that there wasn't a possible miscarriage of justice in this case.

What irrefutable, cross-referenced, evidence proves what happened in this case?

 I think Stephen has described the situation quite well...posters are "devoted" to amaral and ignore all the evidence if it interferes with there devotion. To suggest a miscarriage of justice COULD be a possibility would be a serious insult to their "god". It just fits so well
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
Did anyone celebrate Amaral Day this year...yes a day has been decreed Amaral day by some of his supporters on the net...that's devotion for you
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 05:35:25 PM
Did anyone ever think that Leonor might well be guilty of nothing more that cleaning up and covering up for her self-confessed murderous brother?  I find the suggestion that she killed Joana very difficult to contemplate.

Always remember that the brother had a history of violence and had already been sentenced for attempted murder of another individual.  Has Leonor really been convicted of a joint enterprise killing?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 05:38:28 PM
Did anyone ever think that Leonor might well be guilty of nothing more that cleaning up and covering up for her self-confessed murderous brother?  I find the suggestion that she killed Joana very difficult to contemplate.

but she confessed John and it was proved in court..are you suggesting there may have been a miscarriage of justice
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2013, 05:42:42 PM

If ever this Forum should be looking into Miscarriages of Justice, this case should be top of the list.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 05:47:30 PM
but she confessed John and it was proved in court..are you suggesting there may have been a miscarriage of justice

The only thing the Court accepted as proved was this>

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 05:51:24 PM
The only thing the Court accepted as proved was this>

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

 This is conjecture..remember no blood was found..the pj had the chance to prove joanns bled but for some reason the blood collected was not dna tested ...bizarre
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 05:54:22 PM
Did anyone ever think that Leonor might well be guilty of nothing more that cleaning up and covering up for her self-confessed murderous brother?  I find the suggestion that she killed Joana very difficult to contemplate.

Always remember that the brother had a history of violence and had already been sentenced for attempted murder of another individual.  Has Leonor really been convicted of a joint enterprise killing?

I dont believe that Joana has been killed at all.  I believe that she is still alive.

The judge didn't believe they had changed their clothes, yet no evidence of blood on either.

The whole case is a nonsence.

And the greatest Miscarriage of Jusice that I have ever heard of

Yet because their hero Amaral was head honcho, Amaral lovers on here will not accept the frailities of the case.


... removed disingenuous comment ...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 06:05:35 PM
This is conjecture..remember no blood was found..the pj had the chance to prove joanns bled but for some reason the blood collected was not dna tested ...bizarre

Blood found and DNA linked to Joana...

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 08, 2013, 06:07:41 PM
Sadie, you provided two photo's of a dark haired child to prove your point that she was fair haired...

If you believe this child is alive, why aren't you campaigning to have her found?

To everyone, not just Sadie.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
Blood found and DNA linked to Joana...

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

and..

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

 There  was no dna link John
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 06:09:38 PM
Sadie, you provided two photo's of a dark haired child to prove your point that she was fair haired...

If you believe this child is alive, why aren't you campaigning to have her found?

To everyone, not just Sadie.

 cariad..blondes often look darker on photographs
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 06:10:14 PM
There  was no dna link John

How else do you think a Court can make such a ruling?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 08, 2013, 06:12:43 PM
How else do you think a Court can make such a ruling?

john       davel seems to live in some  denial from reality  fantasy  world i have them igore they did my head in
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 08, 2013, 06:15:25 PM
How else do you think a Court can make such a ruling?

By assuming rather than proving!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 08, 2013, 06:18:38 PM
How else do you think a Court can make such a ruling?

The trial of Barry George decided that there was gun residue in one of his coat pockets becasue of the forensics. Because the chain of custody and contamination were problems, this evidence was found to be wrong and dismissed at his appeal.

Courts do make mistakes. Courts do over interpret evidence.

If I am to accept that theer was DNA analysis done and this confirmed that the blood was from thevictim, I would like to see that stated in so many words- not just "the blood was the minor's"
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 06:20:15 PM
By assuming rather than proving!

Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Do you honestly think the defence would have accepted anything less than a DNA match?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Cariad on November 08, 2013, 06:21:16 PM
cariad..blondes often look darker on photographs

Ah, that must be it! Only this blonde child though. Must usually just look....blonde....

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 06:21:44 PM
How else do you think a Court can make such a ruling?

 justice Portuguese style

Blood from the room was tested and no match found..its I the court reports
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 06:22:37 PM
justice Portuguese style

Blood from the room was tested and no match found..its I the court reports

Lets see them then?  Since I posted the Supreme Court rulings which reviewed the case it should be interesting.

How long do you need Dave?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 08, 2013, 06:32:05 PM
Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Do you honestly think the defence would have accepted anything less than a complete DNA match?

The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 06:37:38 PM
The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system

What?  ...and not shout about it outside Court?

Even Leonor herself accepted that it was Joana's blood and tried to explain it away.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Do you honestly think the defence would have accepted anything less than a complete DNA match?
There wasn't a DNA match tho was there?

From what I have read, PT didn't have the necessary nouse at the time.

In fact in some reports it has been said that the PJ didn't even know if it was animal blood or human.

The Silvas/Ciprianos kept pigs. 

1) Amaral says that Leonor and Joao fed Joanas parts to the pigs, having kept them in their fridge


2)  Well Amaral says that, or else some days, he says that Joao took the partas away in a bag to dispose of them


or
3)  THe body was left in a car and taken to Spain to be crushed in a car crusher


or
4)  The body was hidden in the hills



Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2013, 06:40:54 PM
One of The Judges refused to convict Leonor and had it on record that he thought she was innocent.

Ask Luz.  She posted up that information many moons ago.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 08, 2013, 06:41:54 PM
What?  ...and not shout about it outside Court?

Even Leonor herself accepted that it was Joana's blood and tried to explain it away.
Leonor was tortured and in fear of it again.  She will  say what she is told to say.


Would you challenge a Court ruling in a Fascist system?  I wouldn't.  Better to go to jail than have half your life beaten out of you.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 06:44:07 PM
Blood found and DNA linked to Joana...

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;

aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;

Have you found any DNA evidence related to the crime scene that is identified as being Joana's?


You may have also missed this section:

The matter that was considered to be proved in items aa), ab), ac), ad), ae), af), ag), ah) ai), aj) al), am), an), ap), aah), aai), aaj) and aam) was based on the deposition of witnesses AA3, CC3, CC4, DD, CC8, II, DD1 , MM and BB1, on the reconstitution files and on the search and apprehension files, as well as on the subsequent forensic exam, all interpreted under the light of the rules of experience.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 06:50:29 PM
@ John

From what I've read on here, you're a former policeman, and a victim of a miscarriage of justice yourself. Don't you see the gaping holes in the so-called evidence?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 08, 2013, 06:54:05 PM
Ah, that must be it! Only this blonde child though. Must usually just look....blonde....

her hair was slightly fairer when younger, but when she went missing and or killed her hair was dark brown...obvious from all the latter photos....so not a blonde girl.....by any stretch


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
justice Portuguese style

Blood from the room was tested and no match found..its I the court reports

Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 08, 2013, 07:16:26 PM
Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.


im off to a bonfire with the kids...will post it tomorrow...  red provided the link a couple of days ago..ive already posted it once
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 07:21:21 PM


im off to a bonfire with the kids...will post it tomorrow...  red provided the link a couple of days ago..ive already posted it once

Fair enough, maybe Redblossom will post it.  It will be interesting to see the difference between the two Courts.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 07:22:19 PM
The defence has no option other than to accept what the Judge finds. It is not an adversarial system

What were the defence arguments in this case? What counter evidence was provided? How many defence witnesses were there? Who was living in that house when this body was supposed to have been chopped and stuffed into the fridge? What would have been required for a pro-bono defence attorney to point out that unidentified traces of blood of human and animal origin on, e.g., the broom handle, or even in the back of a fridge drawer did not actually provide evidence of a massacre as opposed to a nicked finger whilst doing housework at some point?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 08, 2013, 07:23:19 PM
@ John

From what I've read on here, you're a former policeman, and a victim of a miscarriage of justice yourself. Don't you see the gaping holes in the so-called evidence?

There isn't really any gaping holes, lots of circumstantial granted and room for doubt certainly.  Do remember that João Cipriano (Leonor's brother) admitted in the presence of his lawyer to killing Joana and he wasn't being 'tortured' on that occasion as Sadie would claim.

I believe his words were, "I didn't beat her, I just killed her!"
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 07:30:33 PM
Still waiting on these Court Reports Dave.

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


(...)

Therefore, we cannot conclude with certainty that the body, or all parts of the minor’s body were placed inside the deep freezer, but that at least they tried to place it in there, results not only from the reconstitution act, but also from the fact that on the 16th of October 2004, human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer (cfr. Page 585), which was again confirmed by the report of the examination that was performed by the LPC [Scientific Police Lab] (pages 1780 and following, with special attention to pages 1786 (item B) and 1792). It is further recalled that witness CC3 explained that the blood traces that were collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer. Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.


Where does it say that her blood was found? Even if it had been, what forensic examinations had been conducted that could conclude that she had come to grief as opposed to even helping her mum to mop a floor or put away groceries in the fridge?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 08, 2013, 07:36:13 PM
the only links I have posted are these...4 for the supreme court ruling and the last one some statement from the mother in 2009 presumably linked with some kind of appeal


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

The blog these came from has a whole section, click on menu near the top,  on the case where there are many  more links to both news reports and other court affairs.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 08, 2013, 08:04:38 PM
the only links I have posted are these...4 for the supreme court ruling and the last one some statement from the mother in 2009 presumably linked with some kind of appeal


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

The blog these came from has a whole section, click on menu near the top,  on the case where there are many  more links to both news reports and other court affairs.....

Yes, thanks Red. The easiest one to follow the Supreme Court ruling is this one:

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

It's Part IV, but at the bottom, it's easy to click to the previous parts.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 09, 2013, 06:04:56 AM
the only links I have posted are these...4 for the supreme court ruling and the last one some statement from the mother in 2009 presumably linked with some kind of appeal


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html

The blog these came from has a whole section, click on menu near the top,  on the case where there are many  more links to both news reports and other court affairs.....

Oh yes the famous she was sold for a better life routine.

Give me strength.

Amen to that....lol.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 09, 2013, 07:03:35 AM
Colombostomy

Do you think that torture should be used in cases that are difficult to prove?

Is Torture OK ?


You had better ask that Leonor Cipriano hun, she felt it was ok to bash her daughter on the head.....

Oh silly me no she didnt harm her child, she sold her for a few euros and her daughter is now living in a lovely home in fairy land, waiting for father christmas on the 25th December.

NOW strangely enough there was a little case of a blonde child found with gypsies......The gave a tale about her being given to them by a poor bulgarian women. They were called liars and child abductors.

SHOCK HORROR the real mother came forward and said that is my child and the DNA was proven.

Now let us go back to your little scenario. IF the family that the child went to live in La la land exists why then did they simply not come forward and say...LC sold us her child.....

Why did she sell her anyway? She looked fairly well kept, and her mother could afford to go out to bars and stuff.

I have decided to agree with you hun, she was tortured by big bad naughty fascist coppers and she simply should not be allowed to stay in prison another day longer.

Joana is happily living with a kind couple and will see xmas.

IF you start a petition up to free LC because of this injustice I will sign it for you.



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 08:50:07 AM
The only thing the Court accepted as proved was this>

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

This was one of the points "interpreted under the light of the rules of experience."


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 09, 2013, 08:52:39 AM
This was one of the points "interpreted under the light of the rules of experience."




Or what we might call mere supposition, guesswork and fiction.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 09:02:34 AM
The night of 12 September 2004 was a festival night in the Aldeia da Figueira. The traditional São Miguel party was underway as shown in these amateur videos given to RTP, which show no signs of Joana. But in one scene you can see António Leandro, the girl's stepfather.

The Portimão GNR continued with searches over the following days around the Aldeia da Figueira. Posters about the disappearance were put up. But there were no traces of Joana.

The mother began giving interviews to the media.

Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother: "Everyone in the café says, 'This is a badly told story. A girl disappearing, suddenly... it was someone from outside who headed for Lisbon and took her in a car.'"

Four days later, the case of the missing 8 year old girl is transferred to the PJ in Portimão. Another four days later, it is transferred to the PJ Directory in Faro. The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted.

Guilhermino da Encarnação, Director, PJ Faro: "In this investigation, we covered about 50,000 kilometres. 2100 official processes were created. We assigned approximately 40 inspectors and requested approximately 40 exams from the Scientific Police Laboratory and the Legal Medical Institute."

Leonor Cipriano continued to give interviews.

Leonor Cipriano: "I'm very sad. I think my daughter is really missing her mother. I just ask that anyone who knows about my daughter, that you don't hurt her. And that you can bring her to me."

Interviewer: "Where do you think your daughter could be right now?"

Leonor Cipriano: "There are only guesses. If she is alive, or not, if she's hurt. I don't know, there's no explanation for my daughter… I don't know, I don't know."

Without any clues, the PJ inspectors did find discrepancies. The statements of Joana's mother, the uncle and the other family members do not coincide.

Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened."

Leonor is taken in by the PJ on the 21 September, eleven days after her daughter disappeared. The girl's uncle, João Cipriano, remained free for one more day but was also arrested under suspicion of homicide.

In the next few days, João took the PJ inspectors to dozens of different locations to point out Joana's body. But the body was not found in any of those places.

Gonçalo Amaral: "At that time, it became, as if it were a fact, to the police that she was playing with us … She was sending a message, a message to perhaps say that the body was cut up or the body no longer existed. But, at the same time, all the diligences constituted evidence. This permitted us, as would come to happen in the trial, to speak about them, because they were diligences in which we participated and not witness statements of the arguidos. We aren't talking about declarations by arguidos, we are talking about giving witness to the diligences that we did and why we did these diligences and went to these places. On the other hand, it would not have happened, for him to indicate where to find the body or the rest of the body or pieces of the body and we then didn't go. We always had to go. And that's what happened."

The PJ's theory was that the body was fed to the pigs, a theory that was not proven in court. Shocked by this macabre story, hundreds of locals invaded the village searching for answers. The same answers for which the PJ were searching. Why was Joana killed? And where is her body?

Guilhermino da Encarnação: "In principal, this is a disappearance. And this crime is always, excuse me, this crime doesn't have a juridic framework but could have behind it a series of crimes, a kidnapping, an abduction, human trafficking, criminal associations, so that any of these crimes could be behind a disappearance. And the complexity begins right there."

Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys.

Sara Rosado, João Cipriano's lawyer: "I imagine that all the pressure surrounding this process, generated that, those declarations, as well as others in opposite and various directions, with other details, with other facts. As for the rest, the version that you find constituted in the video doesn't even adhere to the accusation. That is, the actual accusation didn't even follow this theory if you examine certain details. And, in fact, only the pressure that … one of these was the enormous pressure on everyone, including the arguidos who were arrested and so…"

RTP requested authorization from the Portimão Court to emit in this report a short excerpt of the video but the judge in charge denied the request invoking the "image rights" of those who appear in the video.

João Cipriano also directed a photographic reconstitution where, with the help of a mannequin, he explained how he cut Joana's body into three parts.

According to the accusations from the Public Ministry, the three body pieces were placed in black sacks in the small refrigerator during the first few hours. In the various exams done by technicians from the Scientific Police Lab at Joana's house, human blood was found in one of the drawers inside the refrigerator. But DNA tests did not prove that the blood was Joana's.

Gonçalo Amaral: "It is just one of the versions that was given, and we continue to find viable and credible because blood was found in a chink on one of the refrigerator drawers. A drop of blood in the drawer. Someone opens [the refrigerator] and lets some blood run. The blood ran into the drawer and was cleaned, so it only remained in the chinks, in the areas that are difficult to clean. The explanation was necessary given the circumstances in which the homicide occurred, as this was not a prepared or planned homicide, it was a homicide "in loco." It happened, in the way everyone knows, and they had to hide the body. It's viable and an alternative that they may have used and tried, during the first phase while thinking about what to do with the body, to hide the body in the refrigerator."

During the trial, it was also proven that the body pieces would only have fit in the refrigerator if that drawer in which they found human blood had been removed from the refrigerator.

Sara Rosado: "The doctor who attended the diligences and testified in court affirmed that, very tightly, [the body] would fit. But only by removing the drawer. There was blood found on the back of the alleged drawer, having removed the drawer, but the doctor said the arguidos were surprised with this. It was an idea that had never occurred to them. So I don't think anything like this happened."

Many more vestiges of blood were found in Joana's house. Using ultraviolet light, they found blood on the walls by the door: traces of facial and hand impressions from a child of the family, but which could not be proved to be Joana's. Also by the light switch, near the front door, there was found a bit of blood from Ruben, Joana's younger brother who also lived in the house.

João Grade, Leonor Cipriano's second lawyer (former lawyer): "There was not blood in so many different areas... there were various exams done... just vestiges of human blood, which is normal. A housewife only has to cut herself peeling potatoes while watching a soap opera, only has to have a cut, to have blood, it just has to fall on the ground, it has to be cleaned as anyone of us would clean, and then with rigorous exams you could conclude that there were vestiges of blood. It doesn't say anything. In any of our houses, there could be blood like this."

On the floor of the house and on a mop handle, there were found a mixture of human and animal blood. These exams were also inconclusive.

Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.

Gonçalo Amaral: "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station. There was an attempt, that you might say worked well, to inhibit any laboratory results. As many vestiges as possible were obtained, given the circumstances, and the conclusion is that it was human blood. According to the court, and I agree, something serious happened in that house, on that day. And the conclusion was that it was a homicide."

Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.

Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."

In February 2005, photographs were published of Leonor with significant bruising (Marinho Pinto Expresso Newspaper Article). The trial will begin soon of four inspectors charged with torture, and Gonçalo Amaral of the crime of false witness and failure to denounce [inappropriate police behaviour].

Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."

Leonor and João opted to remain silent throughout the entire trial. In November 2005 they were charged with qualified homicide and hiding a cadaver. Leonor was condemned to 20 years and 4 months in prison, and João to 19 years and 2 months. The three jury members and four judges felt that the brother and sister did not intend to kill the child but gave, as proven, that the body was dismembered though they were not convinced it was kept in the refrigerator. Nor was it proven that the child was killed because she caught the mother and her brother having s.e.x. The defense attorneys and the Public Ministry presented an appeal, reducing the penalty to 16 years and 8 month.

With a lot of doubts still to be clarified, Leonor's attorney presented another appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.

João Grade: "It's more than frustrating that we do not know what happened. We have this other child who disappeared 10 years ago, when eight years old, and now has returned at eighteen years old. We don't know whether Joana is going to appear twenty years from now, or four years from now, alive or dead, I don't know."

RTP wanted to talk to Leonor and João, currently serving their sentences in the Odimera and Carregeira prisons. Leonor sent a signed letter, where she agreed to give an interview. Two days after making a request to the Prison Director, that service sent us a newly signed letter when Leonor rescinded her agreement because of "lack of understanding".

João Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhão prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie. My sister told me that Joana was fine. She told me that she had sold Joana to a foreign couple."

It remains to be known, what was Joana's destiny.


RTP 2007

File : 197 MB, duration 0:18:28, AVI, 1 audio stream
Video : 180 MB, 1368 Kbps, 25 fps, resolution 700*534 (4:3)
Audio : 16.90 MB, 128 Kbps, 48000 Hz, stereo, MP3

Source: RTP Media

(With thanks to Joana for translation).
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 09, 2013, 09:18:48 AM
Quote
These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.
Unquote

Blood on the walls and the floor - but not a speck found on either of their clothes or on their shoes?   Not even after all the time it would have taken to complete the grisly job of dismembering a body with knives and saws - and then handling the body parts  - did they find it necessary to change their clothes.    Not credible by any stretch of the imagination IMO.   



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 09:25:49 AM
Or what we might call mere supposition, guesswork and fiction.

She was last seen walking from the shop towards home.
 
Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 09, 2013, 09:43:35 AM
She was last seen walking from the shop towards home.
 
Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.

Amazing what these PJ Experts know by instinct, isn't it.  And then The Courts believe every word of it.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 09:44:06 AM
The introductory part of the ruling wasn't translated.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 10:38:08 AM
her hair was slightly fairer when younger, but when she went missing and or killed her hair was dark brown...obvious from all the latter photos....so not a blonde girl.....by any stretch

Yes, some fair haired girls are fair in the summer because of the suns bleaching effect and darker in the winter.  Joana was taken on Sept 12th IIRC.  All that summer sun to have bleached her hair.


I have it straight from Leonors lawyer, Marcos Aragao Correira, that Joana is a blonde.  He corrected me, when I said she was brown or dark haired.... cant remember which I said     Of course to the generally Latin coloured PT peeps with their dark hair and flashing black eyes, their perception of blonde and ours maybe a tadge different.  But undoubtedly Joana was very fair haired, maybe only in the summer months ... or maybe as Davel says photographs often show fair haired people as dark haired

(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg)

I think Leonor dyes her hair black cos I have seen a photo of her with brown hair, or maybe it is the sun changing things again?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 09, 2013, 11:12:34 AM

IIRC Sadie posted photographs of LC's house - exterior and interior taken from before JC disappeared.  They do not show a filthy house - in fact far from it.   I can only assume those piccies were not presented in court.

Maybe if Sadie has time - she will re-post them.


Quote
Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.
 Unquote

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 11:26:53 AM
IIRC Sadie posted photographs of LC's house - exterior and interior taken from before JC disappeared.  They do not show a filthy house - in fact far from it.   I can only assume those piccies were not presented in court.

Maybe if Sadie has time - she will re-post them.


Quote
Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.
 Unquote

No I haven't done that, but I will

Give me a mo.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013076/jpg

(http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013076/jpg)

The outside.  Small but well looked after

http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013075/jpg

(http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013075/jpg)



http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013077/jpg]

(http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013077/jpg)

Cipriano home.  Kitchen / dining / sitting area ..  neat and clean.  Small but very decent.



http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano2.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano2.jpg)

A very bonny happy Joana at honme, I think


http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.4.jpg.w560h373.jpg

(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.4.jpg.w560h373.jpg)

Joana with friends and siblings at home.  Modest but tidy and clean looking.  Cared for.



http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/Jornal24horas11Maio2009p5.jpg.w560h771.jpg

(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/Jornal24horas11Maio2009p5.jpg.w560h771.jpg)

Leonor on bed with toddler and Joanas picture.  Room simple but clean.  Mother and little one dressed fine.  Little one looks healthy and content


I think I might ber able to find some more if you wish, but you will have to wait.


 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 12:01:18 PM
 
http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013074/jpg

(http://prphotos.com/i/SPX-013074/jpg)

This was labelled as Ruben, Joanas sibling and probably at home ... but I dont know for sure


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 09, 2013, 04:14:24 PM


Thank you for those piccies Sadie.    How anyone in the PJ could describe her home as 'filthy'  - and why they would want to do that, is beyond me.     

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 05:06:06 PM

Thank you for those piccies Sadie.    How anyone in the PJ could describe her home as 'filthy'  - and why they would want to do that, is beyond me.     
Also, how anyone could describe Joana as unhappy, malnourished, unloved, badly dressed is beyond me too.

Was that in the Court Records?  Anyone remember?  ...  or was it Amaral who said it?  Or who?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
Thanks for finding all those pics, Sadie.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 05:53:18 PM
Please can anyone tell me.  

Was it in Court records, Amarals spiel or somewhere else that all these defamatory things were said about Leonor ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 06:08:27 PM
Please can anyone tell me.  

Was it in Court records, Amarals spiel or somewhere else that all these defamatory things were said about Leonor ?

It depends what you are thinking of, Sadie.

There was a media frenzy about the case at the time.

There is also the Supreme Court ruling. The first part hasn't been translated, but the others have. The link below takes you to the final section, but clicking on the links enables you to read the translations of previous sections.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 09, 2013, 07:18:39 PM
Who took these photos? It doesn't look as if they had been taken by the police during the investigation. They look more like real estate photos.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 09, 2013, 08:24:45 PM
This case seems to have created quite a media storm. Here's an article at random only 2 weeks after her disappearance and after the arrest of the mother and her brother.

What kind of preparation was given to the jury in this case?


MÃE CONFESSA MORTE DA FILHA POR ACIDENTE
Várias horas de interrogatório culminaram na confissão do crime. Primeiro João Cipriano assumiu a participação na ocultação do cadáver da sobrinha, depois a mãe de Joana admitiu a autoria do homicídio, praticado contra a menor, na noite do 12 deste mês, na casa onde residiam na Figueira.
26 Setembro 2004 Nº de votos (0) Comentários (15)
Por:José Carlos Eusébio / João Mendes / M.B.

Uma morte acidental, alegou a mulher perante a juíza de instrução do Tribunal de Portimão, Ana Soares, que decretou a prisão preventiva da mulher e mandou o homem em liberdade com a obrigação de apresentar-se diariamente às autoridades.

As medidas de coacção só foram conhecidas cerca das 03h00 da madrugada de ontem, numa altura em que dezenas de populares revoltados ainda se encontravam concentrados à porta do Tribunal (alguns mantiveram-se aí durante todo o dia).

Segundo apurou o Correio da Manhã, o tio da menina assassinada, João Cipriano, que foi o primeiro a ser ouvido pela juíza (esteve a ser interrogado desde meio da tarde até às 21h30), terá inicialmente admitido o crime, mas depois, quando as declarações foram passadas a escrito, o indivíduo acabou por apontar o dedo à irmã, a mãe de Joana.

“Isso é com a minha irmã” – foi a expressão usada vezes sem conta pelo indivíduo, quando confrontado com questões relacionadas com a forma como se dera o homicídio da criança, remetendo para Leonor Cipriano todas as explicações do caso.

João Cipriano terá apenas reconhecido que ajudou a irmã (a pedido desta) a desfazer-se do corpo de Joana, depois de a menina ter sido morta. Garantiu que o corpo foi colocado num terreno próximo de casa, mas salientou que não sabia ao certo onde, dado que “estava escuro”.

Entretanto, a mãe de Joana, Leonor Cipriano, que foi ouvida entre as 21h30 e cerca da 00h00, veio a confessar o crime da morte da filha. A mulher justificou no entanto que se tratou de um acidente, dizendo que dera uma bofetada na criança e esta batera com a cabeça numa parede, ficando inconsciente.

Leonor Cipriano referiu ter ficado desnorteada e em pânico perante a perspectiva de ter matado a filha, pelo que decidiu enrolar o corpo da menina num pano e metê-lo num saco de plástico. Pediu então a ajuda do irmão para se desfazer do corpo da própria filha, o que, segundo ela, veio a acontecer num sítio nas imediações da casa. Tal como o tio, a mãe de Joana também se terá desculpado com o escuro, bem como com o estado de pânico em que se encontraria, para não saber onde colocou o corpo da filha. Essa é, aliás, a razão dada pelos dois para o facto de as pistas fornecidas até agora à PJ sobre o local onde colocaram o corpo se revelarem completamente falsas.
Ultimamente, a mãe de Joana está a dar a ideia de se encontrar psicologicamente afectada com o caso, verificando-se que muitas vezes “não diz coisa com coisa”, segundo a expressão usada por fonte próxima das investigações.

Após ter ouvido os dois suspeitos, a juíza de instrução criminal recolheu-se para decidir as medidas de coacção a aplicar, chamando à sua presença a mãe e o tio de Joana cerca da 01h30. Foi então comunicado a Leonor Cipriano que ficaria em situação de prisão preventiva e a João Cipriano que sairia em liberdade, mediante termo de identidade e residência e apresentações diárias às autoridades (GNR Silves).

Quer a mãe de Joana quer o tio acabaram por sair do Tribunal de Portimão, por volta das 03h00, em carros da PJ, através da garagem situada nas traseiras do edifício. Devido à presença de dezenas de populares (embora a maior parte estivesse concentrada na porta de entrada), os veículos da PJ abandonaram o local a alta velocidade, com a colaboração do Corpo de Intervenção da PSP.

PORMENORES
DETENÇÃO
As detenções de Leonor Cipriano e do irmão, João, foram feitas na quinta-feira passada pelos inspectores da Secção Regional de Combate ao Banditismo da PJ de Faro, que assumiram as investigações do caso no dia 21, oito dias após o desaparecimento.

VERSÕES
Durante a produção do processo, encetado pela GNR e entregue posteriormente ao Departamento de Investigação Criminal da PJ de Portimão até passar para a Directoria de Faro, a mãe da criança insistiu na versão do rapto. Durante os interrogatórios revelou ter visto a filha pela última vez momentos antes dela sair para fazer compras num café da aldeia, cerca das 19h00 de dia 12.

DINHEIRO
A intenção de extorquir uma pequena quantia de dinheiro que Joana possuía terá provocado a discussão que opôs a menor aos dois familiares. Mãe e tio exigiram à menina que lhes entregasse as suas parcas economias, feitas com dinheiro que familiares lhe davam, mas a criança resistiu. A PJ revelou no dia das detenções que as agressões contra Joana tinham como intenção matá-la. Sangue encontrado na casa permitiram descobrir o crime.

DOR E REVOLTA POPULAR ÀS PORTAS DO TRIBUNAL
Se pudessem faziam justiça com as próprias mãos. Concentrados à porta do tribunal de Portimão, centenas de populares revoltados contra os irmãos Cipriano deixaram o coração falar mais alto e ditaram ali mesmo uma sentença antecipada para o crime “macabro” praticado contra a menor.

“Merecem a morte”, foi o veredicto unânime. À hora em que Leonor e o irmão confessavam à juíza ter as mãos manchadas de sangue, já todos sabiam que Joana não voltaria a percorrer as ruas da Figueira, mas na memória tinham ainda o sorriso incauto da menina que apareceu nos rectângulos de papel espalhados pela aldeia, onde se escreveram apelos para a trazer de volta.

Legitimados pela dor que “aquela mãe malvada” nunca revelou, mas vencidos pelo cansaço da espera, os populares acabariam por calar os gritos de vingança, mas permaneceram vigilantes até à hora em que as portas do tribunal se abriram de novo para deixar passar os “assassinos”.

Porque a madrugada já dera tréguas à revolta, as palavras não saíram para repetir os sentimentos de ódio atirados contra Leonor e João durante a a tarde, mas as dezenas de homens e mulheres que resistiram junto ao edifício até ser conhecida a decisão, olharam por cima do ombro enquanto regressavam a casa: tinham a sensação de que havia um criminoso à solta.

SEGURANÇA ESPECIAL NA CADEIA DE ODEMIRA
Leonor Cipriano passou o resto da madrugada de ontem nos calabouços da PJ de Faro e foi depois levada para o Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira, a única cadeia feminina no Sul do País, onde irá cumprir a prisão preventiva. Será alvo de medidas especiais de segurança, não devendo ser colocada em convívio com as restantes reclusas.
Tal situação devesse ao facto de, nas cadeias femininas, tal como nas masculinas, existir um código de honra entre os detidos, segundo o qual suspeitos de crimes de natureza vária sobre crianças são mal aceites pelos outros reclusos.

Uma fonte da Direcção-Geral dos Serviços Prisionais indicou ao CM que “estão a ser tomadas as medidas necessárias e adequadas para uma situação destas”, escusando-se a dar pormenores.

A cadeia feminina de Odemira tem uma lotação para 56 reclusas mas actualmente conta com 71, das quais 23 em regime de prisão preventiva e 48 a cumprir pena efectiva. A sua taxa de ocupação é de 126,8 por cento. O regime de segurança é misto e tem um corpo de guarda de 34 elementos.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134


Google
MOTHER DAUGHTER CONFESSES DEATH BY ACCIDENT
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First John Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of her niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, the house where they lived in Figueira.
September 26, 2004 No. of votes (0) Comments (15)
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB


An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and told the man in freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known approximately 3:00 a.m. in the morning yesterday, at a time when dozens of popular revolt were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News has learned, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he was being interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), will initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointing his finger to his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring to all the explanations Leonor Cipriano case.
João Cipriano has only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joan, after the girl was dead. Ensured that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark."
However, Joan's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of their daughter's death. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying he had given a slap on the child and this had struck his head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said to have been bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing his daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put him in a plastic bag. He then asked the help of his brother to dispose of the body's own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like his uncle, the mother of Joan will also apologized to the dark, as well as the state of panic that would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ put on where the body may prove completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joan is giving the idea of ​​finding psychologically affected by the case and there is often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on enforcement measures to be applied to your presence by calling his mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano who would be in custody and João Cipriano that would free by the end of identity and residence and daily presentations to the authorities (GNR Silves).
Whether the mother of Joan's uncle wants to eventually leave the Court of Portimão, around 3:00 a.m. in the PJ car through the garage located behind the building. Due to the presence of dozens of popular (although most were concentrated in the doorway), PJ vehicles left the scene at high speed, with the collaboration of the Body of Intervention PSP.
DETAILS
DETENTION
The arrests of Leonor Cipriano and her brother, John, were made on Thursday last by the inspectors of the Regional Chamber to Combat Gangsterism PJ of Faro, who took over the investigation of the case in 21 days, eight days after the disappearance.
VERSIONS
During the production process, initiated by the GNR and later handed over to the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão to go to the Directory of Faro, the child's mother insisted on the release of kidnapping. During interrogation revealed that he had seen her daughter last moments before her morning's shopping in a cafe in the village, about 19.00 for 12 days.
MONEY
The intent to extort a small amount of money that Joan had the discussion that has provoked the least opposed to the two families. Mother and uncle to the girl demanded that they surrender their meager savings, made with money that relatives gave them, but the child resisted. The PJ revealed on the day of the arrests that the attacks against Joan had intended to kill her. Blood found in the house led to discover the crime.
PAIN AND DOORS TO POPULAR REVOLT OF THE COURT
If you could have made the law into their own hands. Concentrates on the door of the court of Portimão, hundreds of popular revolt against the brothers Cipriano left heart speak louder and dictated a sentence right there early for the crime "macabre" committed against the minor.
"They deserve death," was the unanimous verdict. At the hour when Leonor and her brother confessed to the judge have their hands stained with blood, as everyone knew that Joan would never walk the streets of Figueira, but the memory still had the smile of careless girl who appeared in rectangles of paper scattered around the village , where he wrote pleas to bring back.
Legitimated by the pain that "one bad mother" never revealed, but overcome by weariness of waiting, the popular eventually silence the cries of vengeance, but remain vigilant until the time that the doors of the court opened again to pass the " murderers. "
Because the dawn has given respite to revolt, no words left to repeat the sentiments of hatred thrown against pa Leonor and João during late, but the dozens of men and women who stood beside the building to be known to the decision, looked over shoulder while returning home, had the feeling that there was a criminal on the loose.
SPECIAL SECURITY CHAIN ​​OF ODEMIRA
Leonor Cipriano spent the rest of the morning yesterday in the dungeons of the PJ in Faro and was then taken to the Prison Odemira, the only female chain in the South of the country where you will comply with the remand. Will be subject to special security measures should not be placed in contact with the other inmates.
This situation should the fact that, in women's jails, as in men, there is a code of honor among those detained, according to which criminal suspects of various kinds of children are poorly accepted by the other inmates.

A source from the Directorate-General of the Prison Service told the CM that "being taken measures necessary and appropriate to a situation of" excuses to give details.
The chain Odemira female has a capacity for 56 inmates but currently has 71, 23 of them under the custody and 48 serving sentences effectively. Its occupancy rate is 126.8 percent. The security system is mixed and has a body guard of 34 elements.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 08:52:57 PM
Please can anyone tell me.  

Was it in Court records, Amarals spiel or somewhere else that all these defamatory things were said about Leonor ?

Cheers Carana.  Will go read.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 09, 2013, 09:00:04 PM
Yes, some fair haired girls are fair in the summer because of the suns bleaching effect and darker in the winter.  Joana was taken on Sept 12th IIRC.  All that summer sun to have bleached her hair.


I have it straight from Leonors lawyer, Marcos Aragao Correira, that Joana is a blonde.  He corrected me, when I said she was brown or dark haired.... cant remember which I said     Of course to the generally Latin coloured PT peeps with their dark hair and flashing black eyes, their perception of blonde and ours maybe a tadge different.  But undoubtedly Joana was very fair haired, maybe only in the summer months ... or maybe as Davel says photographs often show fair haired people as dark haired

(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg)

I think Leonor dyes her hair black cos I have seen a photo of her with brown hair, or maybe it is the sun changing things again?

Sorry last pic of joana at 8 yrs old was dark haired...which doesnt help your theory that she was another fair haired blonde girl abducted by the same person etc etc.....as the other two, ie carolina santos which was never even an attempted abduction, just a threat by a madman troublemaker who argued with everyone in the area  and madeleine mccann for which there is no evidence of one....never mind
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 09:06:53 PM
This case seems to have created quite a media storm. Here's an article at random only 2 weeks after her disappearance and after the arrest of the mother and her brother.

What kind of preparation was given to the jury in this case?


MÃE CONFESSA MORTE DA FILHA POR ACIDENTE

/SNIP/-

Google
MOTHER DAUGHTER CONFESSES DEATH BY ACCIDENT

/SNIP/'

SPECIAL SECURITY CHAIN ​​OF ODEMIRA
Leonor Cipriano spent the rest of the morning yesterday in the dungeons of the PJ in Faro and was then taken to the Prison Odemira, the only female chain in the South of the country where you will comply with the remand. Will be subject to special security measures should not be placed in contact with the other inmates.
This situation should the fact that, in women's jails, as in men, there is a code of honor among those detained, according to which criminal suspects of various kinds of children are poorly accepted by the other inmates.

A source from the Directorate-General of the Prison Service told the CM that "being taken measures necessary and appropriate to a situation of" excuses to give details.
The chain Odemira female has a capacity for 56 inmates but currently has 71, 23 of them under the custody and 48 serving sentences effectively. Its occupancy rate is 126.8 percent. The security system is mixed and has a body guard of 34 elements.


So Leonor was kept seperate from the other inmates at Odemira Prison, yet the PJ tried to persuade Dr Ana, prison Governor to say that she was beaten up by the inmates.  8)-))) >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 09, 2013, 09:11:06 PM
Sorry last pic of joana at 8 yrs old was dark haired...which doesnt help your theory that she was another fair haired blonde girl abducted by the same person etc etc.....as the other two, ie carolina santos which was never even an attempted abduction, just a threat by a madman troublemaker who argued with everyone in the area  and madeleine mccann for which there is no evidence of one....never mind

Thank you RB . How can anyone hurt a child. Who is the man?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 09:18:56 PM
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First John Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of her niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, the house where they lived in Figueira.
September 26, 2004 No. of votes (0) Comments (15)
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB


An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and told the man in freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known approximately 3:00 a.m. in the morning yesterday, at a time when dozens of popular revolt were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News has learned, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he was being interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), will initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointing his finger to his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring to all the explanations Leonor Cipriano case.
João Cipriano has only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joan, after the girl was dead. Ensured that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark."
However, Joan's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of their daughter's death. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying he had given a slap on the child and this had struck his head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said to have been bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing his daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put him in a plastic bag. He then asked the help of his brother to dispose of the body's own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like his uncle, the mother of Joan will also apologized to the dark, as well as the state of panic that would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ put on where the body may prove completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joan is giving the idea of ​​finding psychologically affected by the case and there is often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on enforcement measures to be applied to your presence by calling his mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano who would be in custody and João Cipriano that would free by the end of identity and residence and daily presentations to the authorities (GNR Silves).
Whether the mother of Joan's uncle wants to eventually leave the Court of Portimão, around 3:00 a.m. in the PJ car through the garage located behind the building. Due to the presence of dozens of popular (although most were concentrated in the doorway), PJ vehicles left the scene at high speed, with the collaboration of the Body of Intervention PSP.
DETAILS
DETENTION
The arrests of Leonor Cipriano and her brother, John, were made on Thursday last by the inspectors of the Regional Chamber to Combat Gangsterism PJ of Faro, who took over the investigation of the case in 21 days, eight days after the disappearance.
VERSIONS
During the production process, initiated by the GNR and later handed over to the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão to go to the Directory of Faro, the child's mother insisted on the release of kidnapping. During interrogation revealed that he had seen her daughter last moments before her morning's shopping in a cafe in the village, about 19.00 for 12 days.
MONEY
The intent to extort a small amount of money that Joan had the discussion that has provoked the least opposed to the two families. Mother and uncle to the girl demanded that they surrender their meager savings, made with money that relatives gave them, but the child resisted. The PJ revealed on the day of the arrests that the attacks against Joan had intended to kill her. Blood found in the house led to discover the crime.
PAIN AND DOORS TO POPULAR REVOLT OF THE COURT
If you could have made the law into their own hands. Concentrates on the door of the court of Portimão, hundreds of popular revolt against the brothers Cipriano left heart speak louder and dictated a sentence right there early for the crime "macabre" committed against the minor.
"They deserve death," was the unanimous verdict. At the hour when Leonor and her brother confessed to the judge have their hands stained with blood, as everyone knew that Joan would never walk the streets of Figueira, but the memory still had the smile of careless girl who appeared in rectangles of paper scattered around the village , where he wrote pleas to bring back.
Legitimated by the pain that "one bad mother" never revealed, but overcome by weariness of waiting, the popular eventually silence the cries of vengeance, but remain vigilant until the time that the doors of the court opened again to pass the " murderers. "
Because the dawn has given respite to revolt, no words left to repeat the sentiments of hatred thrown against pa Leonor and João during late, but the dozens of men and women who stood beside the building to be known to the decision, looked over shoulder while returning home, had the feeling that there was a criminal on the loose.


All this stuff came after two days of torture to Leonor.  Anyone will say anything they are told to after they have been broken by torture.  Anything to keep the dreaded pain away.  Tortured out evidence is NOT evidence at all

This is the grossest Miscarriage of Justice that I have ever heard about.


As lengthy brutal torture was used, especially against Leonor, nothing about this case can be believed.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 09, 2013, 09:22:57 PM
Thank you RB . How can anyone hurt a child. Who is the man?

they do unfortunately and more than not someone in the family or circle of friends is responsible for younger children, older ones are often runaways as much if not more so in fact

all psychologically damaged and or other reasons for such acts.....part of the tapestry of our sad bad corners of the world

Ps not sure not sure what man you are talking about, if its sadies suspect.. ask her



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 09, 2013, 10:07:07 PM
I dont deny that Joana looks med/dark haired in some pictures.  Her hair must be of the type that bleaches in the sun of summer and darkens in the winter.

When I suggested to Marcos Aragao Correira, the man who was Leonors lawyer in the torture case, that Joana had med/dark hair, he was most adamant that she was fair haired.  He knew the family and got it straight from the 'horses mouth'

As I said before, with the predominance of latin type people (dark hair and flashing black eyes) maybe their take on blond / fair haired is different from ours?  And it is true that photographs sometimes make fair haired people look dark haired.


.... removed overweighted unrelated article ...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 10, 2013, 05:19:57 PM
her hair was slightly fairer when younger, but when she went missing and or killed her hair was dark brown...obvious from all the latter photos....so not a blonde girl.....by any stretch
The wrong exposure setting on a camera or a flash unit too close to the subject can make hair and skin appear lighter
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 05:22:01 PM
The wrong exposure setting on a camera or a flash unit too close to the subject can make hair and skin appear lighter

 I once had a professional photograph of my children and my beautiful blonde daughter had black hair
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 10, 2013, 05:29:01 PM
I once had a professional photograph of my children and my beautiful blonde daughter had black hair

Yes it works both ways if the exposure is wrong and then if they try to define the image /contrast during developing
. When I had a professional photo taken 2 years old, it showed my hair black and it was red  8(8-))
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 10, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
She's not fair haired sadie....

Her mother has very dark hair. IF she was blonde I would then think she had been abducted by her mother....from a family of blondes.... 8-)(--)

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 10, 2013, 06:39:19 PM
The wrong exposure setting on a camera or a flash unit too close to the subject can make hair and skin appear lighter

Really is her hair colour relevant in the grand scheme of things. She was murdered and disposed of like so much garbage in my humble opinion.

Unless of course we prefer to believe she was sold by her mother and living in a nice house somewhere.

I cant really see the significance of the colour of her hair, only that it pushed the idea that several blonde girls were taken in the area, although this one was in 2004 and Maddy was in 2007.

Poor little lamb. What a life and a horrible way to die. GOD BLESS you little Joana you cant even be buried.xxx RIP.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
Really is her hair colour relevant in the grand scheme of things. She was murdered and disposed of like so much garbage in my humble opinion.

Unless of course we prefer to believe she was sold by her mother and living in a nice house somewhere.

I cant really see the significance of the colour of her hair, only that it pushed the idea that several blonde girls were taken in the area, although this one was in 2004 and Maddy was in 2007.

Poor little lamb. What a life and a horrible way to die. GOD BLESS you little Joana you cant even be buried.xxx RIP.

seconded

Sadie was pushing some theory that some abductor was going around abducting little blonde girls....only theres no proof or evidence any of them were abducted....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 10, 2013, 07:06:45 PM
they do unfortunately and more than not someone in the family or circle of friends is responsible for younger children, older ones are often runaways as much if not more so in fact

all psychologically damaged and or other reasons for such acts.....part of the tapestry of our sad bad corners of the world

Ps not sure not sure what man you are talking about, if its sadies suspect.. ask her

Sorry RB I am still getting used to the set up on this forum . I thought that the photos came from you (wrong). I now know the man in the picci is her common law husband. thank for your reply. Ps, I get scared to answer on here in case I get a remark intended for the original poster and I have just done it to you...Sorry
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Oh dont worry anna no sorry required......and please do not be scared!!!......No one should make you feel scared to post your thoughts no one at all....no one has any right to even try...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 08:40:43 PM
Really is her hair colour relevant in the grand scheme of things. She was murdered and disposed of like so much garbage in my humble opinion.

Unless of course we prefer to believe she was sold by her mother and living in a nice house somewhere.

I cant really see the significance of the colour of her hair, only that it pushed the idea that several blonde girls were taken in the area, although this one was in 2004 and Maddy was in 2007.

Poor little lamb. What a life and a horrible way to die. GOD BLESS you little Joana you cant even be buried.xxx RIP.

as there is no proof she is dead its a good job she cant be buried
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 08:51:24 PM
as there is no proof she is dead its a good job she cant be buried

What a stupid post....no one has suggested she be buried alive....her family have said she is dead....on numerous  occasions...accept it and stop tormenting her memory or wanting to be a director of waking the dead....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 09:03:23 PM
What a stupid post....no one has suggested she be buried alive....her family have said she is dead....on numerous  occasions...accept it and stop tormenting her memory or wanting to be a director of waking the dead....

 as per usual you didn't read the whole post..colombo posted it was a shame Joanna could not be buried...I pointed out that as there is no proof she is dead this is rather fortunate
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
as per usual you didn't read the whole post..colombo posted it was a shame Joanna could not be buried...I pointed out that as there is no proof she is dead this is rather fortunate

I read everything,dont preach to me and others that I dont read,,,,.thanks  sometimes there IS no body....in this case it was crushed and destroyed as testified by the uncle who killed her,fgs.....

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 09:13:23 PM
I read everything,dont preach to me and others that I dont read,,,,.thanks  sometimes there IS no body....in this case it was crushed and destroyed as testified by the uncle who killed her,fgs.....
  so no actual proof just that obtained by torture or threat of torture..


 or did he just walk into the police station and give them the whole story voluntarily..use your brains
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 09:15:35 PM
that's quite an interesting point..he had the right to silence...but decided ...no..they seem like a nice bunch..ill just tell them all I killed her ... doesn't make any sense..probably because it isn't true
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 09:24:16 PM
  so no actual proof just that obtained by torture or threat of torture..


 or did he just walk into the police station and give them the whole story voluntarily..use your brains

Supplythe evidence....the man was a violent psycho...nite now dear
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 09:31:45 PM
Supplythe evidence....the man was a violent psycho...nite now dear

the man was a violent psycho...supply the evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 10, 2013, 09:37:36 PM
Hi davel, did Leonor and Jao have legal representation at their initial interviews ?
I ask this as I have not read up too much on this case.

obviously there was no legal representation when Leonor was beaten by the pj...a fact proved in court...so that would show that the pj would interview without solicitors present
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 09:50:35 PM
obviously there was no legal representation when Leonor was beaten by the pj...a fact proved in court...so that would show that the pj would interview without solicitors present

Evidence????
that she didnt confess with her  solicitor present  ta and evidence it was the Pj who assaulted her after that..rather than anyone else or anything else happening

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 10, 2013, 10:33:37 PM
Evidence????
that she didnt confess with her  solicitor present  ta and evidence it was the Pj who assaulted her fter that..rather than anyone else or anything else happening
It was proven in Court that she was tortured whilst in PJ Custody, Red

How many times does it need repeating?  Once someone has broken to torture they will be terrified of it happening again and will say anything that they are told to say.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 10:35:26 PM
It was proven in Court that the PJ tortured her, Red

How many times does it need repeating?  Once someone has broken to torture they will be terrified of it happening again and will say anything that they are told to say.
No.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 10, 2013, 10:35:58 PM
It was proven in Court that the PJ tortured her, Red

How many times does it need repeating?  Once someone has broken to torture they will be terrified of it happening again and will say anything that they are told to say.


It was proven she was beaten..but not who by... Show me the document that says it was by police.....and I will accede,check back tomorrow
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 10, 2013, 11:17:43 PM
Really is her hair colour relevant in the grand scheme of things. She was murdered and disposed of like so much garbage in my humble opinion.

Unless of course we prefer to believe she was sold by her mother and living in a nice house somewhere.

I cant really see the significance of the colour of her hair, only that it pushed the idea that several blonde girls were taken in the area, although this one was in 2004 and Maddy was in 2007.

Poor little lamb. What a life and a horrible way to die. GOD BLESS you little Joana you cant even be buried.xxx RIP.
Just stop it Colombostomy.  Joana is almost certainly still alive.

She had a lovely life withn caring parents and much fun.  What a happy face she has in most of her photos.

http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.3.jpg.w560h560.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.3.jpg.w560h560.jpg)
Joana looking very happy at her baby siblings (?sisters) first birthday with sister and Leandro and birthday cake.

Healthy looking food in the foreground .... and  nice birthday cake.

They are not paupers or malnourished in any way.  Nor lacking in love and attention.  Happy kids, both nicely dressed with an attentive and proud daddy.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 10, 2013, 11:37:30 PM
Sadie, speculate as long as you like about that case. It's offensive to me, but it's a free country (ish).

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Madeleine McCann's case however.

Nothing.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benita on November 10, 2013, 11:42:35 PM
i'd say its everything to do with it same cop same theories .....different family
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 10, 2013, 11:48:24 PM
Same cop same theories?

That's the best you can do to link the two cases?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benita on November 10, 2013, 11:51:53 PM
Same cop same theories?

That's the best you can do to link the two cases?

no theres more ...but I really cant be bothered tonight zzzz ....so crack on ...  8**8:/:
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 10, 2013, 11:54:07 PM
When a child goes missing without explanation police in every country think the unthinkable. It's not just one cop in Portugal.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 12:21:18 AM
You would think after confessing to Joana's murder - that would be game over -  and they would then automatically say what they did with the body and what they did with the murder weapons.    After all there would be no benefit or reason to hide that information once they'd confessed.  Surely it would have been in their own best interests to co-operate fully.        And yet no trace of a body or murder weapons has ever been found.

Common sense dictates that even though a confession can be extracted from an innocent person,  there is no way an innocent person can say where the body or the murder weapons ended up if they didn't commit the crime in the first place.   

'Fed to the  pigs' was the PJ theory to get round that rather large problem IMO.   As far as I know there has never been a credible explanation as to what happened to the murder weapons and why LC or her brother could not say what they did with them.

IMO the only credible reason is that they couldn't say where -  because they didn't murder Joana.





   

     

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 11, 2013, 12:25:58 AM
Sadie

You look at a few snapshots and dictate that this murdered child had a  'caring family and a lovely life' 

Let's look at that 'caring family'  shall we  ?  ...  and realisticly  judge how  'lovely'  that child's short life will have been

The mother dumped how many of her   kids  ?   (  onto the various men who fathered them  )  ...  never to see them again 

The uncle,  who was put in prison for leaving a man blind  ...  have failed to murder him for money  ?

This  'caring'  family  who,  for some God forsaken reason,   you defend,  are s..m

That poor little girl,  who you insist is,   'almost certainly'  alive,  lived a sad life at the mercy of sadists who eventually ended her short life in a savage way

By the way, you also insisted that the man Jane Tanner saw was  'almost certainly'  the abductor too,  didn't you  ..  over and over again

Your judgment is horribly skewed
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 12:33:24 AM
I followed a link Carana provided and translated this on another thread.
This is a critic of Gonçalo Amaral's lack of searching what should be searched.

comprova-se pois a brutalmente negligente (para não dizer pior) investigação policial quando se sabe, como já explanado no ponto 19 destes articulados, que o então responsável pelas investigações da Polícia Judiciária, Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral, nunca encetou diligências, apropriadas e em tempo útil, de investigação com vista a esclarecer o que verdadeiramente sucedeu à menina Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, tendo inclusivamente desprezado todas as pistas que também apontavam para que João Manuel Domingos Cipriano tivesse, ele e apenas ele, assassinado a criança e deitado o seu corpo num dos contentores de lixo da aldeia da Figueira; possibilidade esta que o então Coordenador Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral sempre negligenciou sem qualquer razão plausível conhecida, tendo apenas ordenado a verificação do aterro sanitário de Porto Lagos duas semanas depois do desaparecimento da menina, quando era já manifestamente impossível proceder a buscas nas milhares e milhares de toneladas de lixo entretanto acumuladas, misturadas, compactuadas e enterradas no subsolo (conforme folhas 267, 268 e 269 do 1º Volume dos autos).
which means
Is proved here the very neglecting (not to say worse) police investigation when one knows, as explained in point 19 of this exposition, that the responsible for the PJ investigation, Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral, never launched diligences, appropriate and in time, in order to clarify  what really happened to Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, having also despised all the leads that pointed to João Manuel Domingos Cipriano as the unique murderer of the child, who dropped her body in one of the bins in Figueira, a possibility that the coordinator Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral always neglected without any plausible reason, as he only ordered to check the landfill of Porto Lagos two weeks after the disappearance of the little girl, when it was obviously impossible to proceed to searches in the thousands of tons of garbage meanwhile accumulated, mixed up, compacted and buried  in the ground.

Strange, very strange.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:43:46 AM
Sadie, speculate as long as you like about that case. It's offensive to me, but it's a free country (ish).

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Madeleine McCann's case however.

Nothing.
Yes it has on several levels

Level 1
1)  Joana was one of three little girls almost certainly abducted in a locality of only about 18 miles.  No other kids in the whole of PT vanishing like that.

2)  All the children went missing in a period of under 3 years.  One, Carolina Santos was rescued from the hands of the abductor

3)  All three were very pretty little girls with fair / blonde hair, aged 8 or under.

Level 2

1)  Unusual and salacial sexual patterns attributed to The Ciprianos and The Mccanns

2)  THe PJ suggested that a fridge was used

3)  The PJ suggested a bag was used to take away the body

4)  The PJ tried to balme the mother

5)  Disinformation damaging the reputations of both parties was put out.

6)  The media was used to spread the disinformation and it became viral = propaganda

7)  Smae Officers involved with Amaral leading

8)  Both these Officers have either already got criminal records or they are about to be allegedly taken tru the Courts.

9)  Money making books were written about both these cases

10)  Both Amaral and Christavao were allegedly eased out/removed from their posts in the PJ



I am sure this list is incomplete, but I am tired, so it will have to do..
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:45:56 AM
You would think after confessing to Joana's murder - that would be game over -  and they would then automatically say what they did with the body and what they did with the murder weapons.    After all there would be no benefit or reason to hide that information once they'd confessed.  Surely it would have been in their own best interests to co-operate fully.        And yet no trace of a body or murder weapons has ever been found.

Common sense dictates that even though a confession can be extracted from an innocent person,  there is no way an innocent person can say where the body or the murder weapons ended up if they didn't commit the crime in the first place.   

'Fed to the  pigs' was the PJ theory to get round that rather large problem IMO.   As far as I know there has never been a credible explanation as to what happened to the murder weapons and why LC or her brother could not say what they did with them.

IMO the only credible reason is that they couldn't say where -  because they didn't murder Joana.   

 8@??)(

Well reasoned and presented, Benice
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 11, 2013, 12:49:30 AM
Don't bother, Sadie ?{)(**
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:50:12 AM
Sadie

You look at a few snapshots and dictate that this murdered child had a  'caring family and a lovely life' 

Let's look at that 'caring family'  shall we  ?  ...  and realisticly  judge how  'lovely'  that child's short life will have been

The mother dumped how many of her   kids  ?   (  onto the various men who fathered them  )  ...  never to see them again 

The uncle,  who was put in prison for leaving a man blind  ...  have failed to murder him for money  ?

This  'caring'  family  who,  for some God forsaken reason,   you defend,  are s..m

That poor little girl,  who you insist is,   'almost certainly'  alive,  lived a sad life at the mercy of sadists who eventually ended her short life in a savage way

By the way, you also insisted that the man Jane Tanner saw was  'almost certainly'  the abductor too,  didn't you  ..  over and over again

Your judgment is horribly skewed

We will see, Icabod   8(0(*

Hopefully time will tell @)(++(* ?{)(**
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 01:28:42 AM
The Murder at the Vicarage is starting in a minute. I'd limit your amateur sleuthing to TV drama.
Oh, you had better watch it then,  8((()*/ 8**8:/:  Maybe you will learn something?




Another lovely photograph of a beautifully presented Joana with which to wish you good night.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano101.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano101.jpg)

Joana at school.  Beautifully presented and slim but not at all underweight imo.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:48:17 AM
Enough of the patronising sanctimonious twaddle for one night guys.  I think quite a few have put a toe or two over the line of acceptable posting tonight.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 07:39:07 AM
We will see, Icabod   8(0(*

Hopefully time will tell @)(++(* ?{)(**

Your judgement on the Cipriano case is is tempered by your adoration of all things Mccann.

If it had not been Amaral involved in the case, this case would have not got a look in.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004, but that it could not identify those responsible. Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral and António Fernandes Nuno Cardoso, senior officials in the judicial police, had been sentenced to 18 months’ and 27 months’ imprisonment respectively, for falsely claiming Leonor Cipriano had fallen down the stairs. However, both sentences were suspended on the grounds that the officers had no previous criminal convictions.


 The above is from the amnesty int website
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 07:44:42 AM
Your judgement on the Cipriano case is is tempered by your adoration of all things Mccann.

If it had not been Amaral involved in the case, this case would have not got a look in.

 of course you have absolutely no proof of that Stephen...just spouting off your opinions as facts once again
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 07:56:01 AM
of course you have absolutely no proof of that Stephen...just spouting off your opinions as facts once again

You know the old saying,

If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck.......................

Meanwhile would you care to remind us what happened to Cipriano in her most recent hearing in court ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 08:00:35 AM
You know the old saying,

If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck.......................

Meanwhile would you care to remind us what happened to Cipriano in her most recent hearing in court ?

she may well be the victim of corrupt police officers,,Montclair has said he has not known anyone win an appeal in 37 yrs
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:02:59 AM
she may well be the victim of corrupt police officers,,Montclair has said he has not known anyone win an appeal in 37 yrs


That is what you want to believe, but it doesn't make it true, does it ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 08:08:11 AM

That is what you want to believe, but it doesn't make it true, does it ?

if it walks like a duck Stephen...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 08:09:45 AM

That is what you want to believe, but it doesn't make it true, does it ?

its also whats on the amnesty website
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:13:18 AM
its also whats on the amnesty website

What happened to Cipriano in her most recent court hearing ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 08:15:43 AM
What happened to Cipriano in her most recent court hearing ?

see my previous posts and you will keep going round in circles all day

 I strongly believe Leonor was the victim of a miscarriage of justice...both of them confessed...when did you last hear of a confession being used as evidence in a uk court
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:17:39 AM
see my previous posts and you will keep going round in circles all day

 I strongly believe Leonor was the victim of a miscarriage of justice...both of them confessed...when did you last hear of a confession being used as evidence in a uk court


Can you provide proof she is innocent of the crime she is convicted of ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 08:19:36 AM

Can you provide proof she is innocent of the crime she is convicted of ?

I don't have to ...if it walks like aduck
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:40:31 AM
I don't have to ...if it walks like aduck

To overturn a conviction, you need evidence.

Where is it ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
Your judgement on the Cipriano case is is tempered by your adoration of all things Mccann.

If it had not been Amaral involved in the case, this case would have not got a look in.
There is NO adoration .... just a wish for Justice.

And a hatred of bullying.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 08:53:12 AM
BUMPED.  Thanks to Davel for finding this

In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004, but that it could not identify those responsible. Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral and António Fernandes Nuno Cardoso, senior officials in the judicial police, had been sentenced to 18 months’ and 27 months’ imprisonment respectively, for falsely claiming Leonor Cipriano had fallen down the stairs. However, both sentences were suspended on the grounds that the officers had no previous criminal convictions.  

 The above is from the amnesty int website



Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:54:02 AM
There is NO adoration .... just a wish for Justice.

And a hatred of bullying.

Now pray tell, just remind us all of what CIPRIANO AND HER ACCOMPLICE ARE CONVICTED OF .
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 08:55:04 AM
To overturn a conviction, you need evidence.

Where is it ?
The evidence is that there was serious and determined Torture.

Simples.

The case was unsafe.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 08:56:50 AM
Now pray tell, just remind us all of what CIPRIANO AND HER ACCOMPLICE ARE CONVICTED OF .

Go back to basics, Stephen.

Think it thru

THe conviction is totally unsafe





Do you condone torture Stephen?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 08:58:05 AM
The evidence is that there was serious and determined Torture.

Simples.

The case was unsafe.

It is not 'simples'.

Provide proof she is innocent of the crime of murder.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 11, 2013, 08:58:19 AM
she may well be the victim of corrupt police officers,,Montclair has said he has not known anyone win an appeal in 37 yrs

Once again, I will have to correct you. I have already written that people win appeals all the time. They see their sentences reduced or increased, sentences or rulings overturned, whatever. One example was the overturning of the book ban injuction. What I was referring to were cases of gross miscarriages of justice and I do not recall any that could compare to the ones that have occurred in the UK.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 08:58:50 AM
What happened to Cipriano in her most recent court hearing ?

A closed Court Stephen

Why?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 11, 2013, 08:59:10 AM
Go back to basics, Stephen.

Think it thru

THe conviction is totally unsafe





Do you condone torture Stephen?

Do you condone child murder sadie?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 09:02:01 AM
Once again, I will have to correct you. I have already written that people win appeals all the time. They see their sentences reduced or increased, sentences or rulings overturned, whatever. One example was the overturning of the book ban injuction. What I was referring to were cases of gross miscarriages of justice and I do not recall any that could compare to the ones that have occurred in the UK.
We have had some undoubtedly, but that does NOT make the injustices in the Leonor Cipriano case any less obvious and wrong




Do you believe in Torture, Montclair?  Where there is a difficult to solve case, is it OK?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 09:05:40 AM
  so no actual proof just that obtained by torture or threat of torture..


 or did he just walk into the police station and give them the whole story voluntarily..use your brains

Just what did he confess to doing?  I have read of three ways at least.  Did they ever make up their minds?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 09:06:12 AM
A closed Court Stephen

Why?

What of her conviction for perjury ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 11, 2013, 09:07:56 AM
We have had some undoubtedly, but that does NOT make the injustices in the Leonor Cipriano case any less obvious and wrong




Do you believe in Torture, Montclair?  Where there is a difficult to solve case, is it OK?

IMO, Leonor was obviously beaten up by her fellow prisoners and the director at the prison, of course, wanted to cover it up because she failed to protect her. Marinho e Pinto came up with some digital photos of Leonor covered in bruises. These type of photos are normally not allowed as evidence because they can be altered easily but, since MP asked to be an "assistente" in the case, he could not be questioned about the source of these photographs. Very convenient! BTW, when is Marinho e Pinto going to testify at the libel trial?

Just because I believe that Leonor and João Cipriano are guilty of murdering Joana doesn't mean that I approve of torture.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 09:17:55 AM
Leonor Ciprianos actions the night that Joana disappeared says it all in my opinion.  She never went out at all to look for her.  Instead she stayed in the house and 'cleaned up'.

Neither Leonor or Joano contacted the police.  Leonor made the pathetic excuse that she had no credit on her mobile phone.  So what??  Emergency calls to 112 are free!!

What does apologist Sadie say about that??
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 09:29:48 AM

Leonor Ciprino had other small children in the house.  Was she supposed to leave them alone while she searched?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 11, 2013, 09:34:13 AM
the man was a violent psycho...supply the evidence

There you go...from the supreme court ruling.....

b) the arguido AA [João Cipriano] has never held a regular job or residence, living inside a vehicle or at his siblings’ house, surviving on occasional jobs that he performed on diverse locations;

c) the arguido AA manifests despise for human life – a result of a poor social adjustment and affective coldness – and has anti-social/psychopathic tendencies with a difficulty to control his impulses, which leads him to be aggressive, trying to solve conflicts through said aggressiveness, feeling no remorse for the consequences of the actions that he thus performs, despising other people’s rights, wishes or feelings;

d) through a ruling that has been validated in court, and given on 10.11.1993, arguido AA was condemned to a 4-year prison sentence over the practice, on 2.10.1992, of a crime of attempted homicide) Saidruling includes that the arguido was convinced, by a third party that lived with one of the arguido’s sisters (GG) to take the life of another person who had left him blind, in exchange for 20.000$00 and a motorbike (…);[/b]
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 09:35:00 AM
Leonor Ciprino had other small children in the house.  Was she supposed to leave them alone while she searched?

I refer you to icabodcrane at 12:25:58 AM on page 30, today.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 09:43:50 AM
There you go...from the supreme court ruling.....

b) the arguido AA [João Cipriano] has never held a regular job or residence, living inside a vehicle or at his siblings’ house, surviving on occasional jobs that he performed on diverse locations;

c) the arguido AA manifests despise for human life – a result of a poor social adjustment and affective coldness – and has anti-social/psychopathic tendencies with a difficulty to control his impulses, which leads him to be aggressive, trying to solve conflicts through said aggressiveness, feeling no remorse for the consequences of the actions that he thus performs, despising other people’s rights, wishes or feelings;

d) through a ruling that has been validated in court, and given on 10.11.1993, arguido AA was condemned to a 4-year prison sentence over the practice, on 2.10.1992, of a crime of attempted homicide) Saidruling includes that the arguido was convinced, by a third party that lived with one of the arguido’s sisters (GG) to take the life of another person who had left him blind, in exchange for 20.000$00 and a motorbike (…);[/b]


Joano Cipriano is the classic psychopath.  He would be very capable of committing murder without the slightest pang of sympathy for his victim.  He and Jeremy Bamber have much in common.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 09:50:21 AM
Sadie

You look at a few snapshots and dictate that this murdered child had a  'caring family and a lovely life' 

Let's look at that 'caring family'  shall we  ?  ...  and realisticly  judge how  'lovely'  that child's short life will have been

The mother dumped how many of her   kids  ?   (  onto the various men who fathered them  )  ...  never to see them again 

The uncle,  who was put in prison for leaving a man blind  ...  have failed to murder him for money  ?

This  'caring'  family  who,  for some God forsaken reason,   you defend,  are s..m

That poor little girl,  who you insist is,   'almost certainly'  alive,  lived a sad life at the mercy of sadists who eventually ended her short life in a savage way

By the way, you also insisted that the man Jane Tanner saw was  'almost certainly'  the abductor too,  didn't you  ..  over and over again

Your judgment is horribly skewed

Sadie also claims that every sighting of a little girl whether it be Morocco, Brussels, Amsterdam or wherever is that of Madeleine McCann.  She has effectively rubbished any credibility she ever had by doing so.

As for Tannerman, well that speaks for itself now that we know the truth.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 10:00:50 AM
IMO, Leonor was obviously beaten up by her fellow prisoners and the director at the prison, of course, wanted to cover it up because she failed to protect her. Marinho e Pinto came up with some digital photos of Leonor covered in bruises. These type of photos are normally not allowed as evidence because they can be altered easily but, since MP asked to be an "assistente" in the case, he could not be questioned about the source of these photographs. Very convenient! BTW, when is Marinho e Pinto going to testify at the libel trial?

Just because I believe that Leonor and João Cipriano are guilty of murdering Joana doesn't mean that I approve of torture.

if that is true why did the pj say she fell down the stairs at the police station
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 10:04:46 AM
IMO, Leonor was obviously beaten up by her fellow prisoners and the director at the prison, of course, wanted to cover it up because she failed to protect her. Marinho e Pinto came up with some digital photos of Leonor covered in bruises. These type of photos are normally not allowed as evidence because they can be altered easily but, since MP asked to be an "assistente" in the case, he could not be questioned about the source of these photographs. Very convenient! BTW, when is Marinho e Pinto going to testify at the libel trial?

Just because I believe that Leonor and João Cipriano are guilty of murdering Joana doesn't mean that I approve of torture.


So you think the Prison Governor and Medical experts who examined LC were liars then?

In that case why hasn't anyone prosecuted the 'Governor' for perjury as it would appear it was mainly as a result of her testimony that torture was proved and two PJ officers were convicted of criminal actions?   

If she lied surely she is ultimately responsible for wrong convictions - and yet as far as I know  - no action has ever been taken against her.    Has Amaral ever claimed or even hinted that he now has a criminal record because the Director of the Prison  is corrupt and committed perjury to cover her own back?  I doubt it.

IMO the truth is she refused to be part of certain members of the PJ's  'cover up' plan regarding LC's terrible injuries.   

Good for her - she is a credit to her profession.  Portugal should be proud of her - not trying to blacken her name in the way some are now attempting to do.








Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 11, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
I’m not surprised that some of you keep defending Leonor Cipriano. After all between Leonor and Mrs. McCann there are more similarities than differences.

Madeleine was the babysitter for her twin siblings while her parents went out at night, and according to Kate, she was a “little mother”. Joana was also the only one that took care of her younger siblings, preparing food, cleaning the house and even had to beg money from the neighbours to buy food for the babies and cigarettes for her mother – her case had been denounced to the Minors Protection Commission by neighbours and teachers, five months before she disappeared.

Like the McCann, Leonor also appealed to the Media, crying out that her daughter had been “taken” – bad luck that her brother (and later herself) confessed to the murder describing every sinister detail of it, which was backed up by forensics.

Like in the McCann case, also with Cipriano, the PJ took too long to follow the homicide hypothesis, deluded by the abduction argument presented by the mother.

Like in the McCann case, also Leonor Cipriano changed her version of events numerous times: first she said it was abduction, then she confessed to have participated in the murder with her brother, later on she affirmed that it was her brother that had convinced her to sell the girl to a childless couple and the “business” had gone wrong, with João Cipriano killing the child.

Like the McCann, Leonor was also advised to turn up against the PJ, by making up a fake torture accusation – curiously enough by the man that had confessed on several interviews that he was out to get Amaral, paid by Metodo 3. The Trial that condemned 2 PJs was based on photoshoped photos that the President of the Bar, Marinho Pinto, had used in his chronicles in a newspaper. The testimony of the doctor that treated Leonor more than a week after she had been in the PJ headquarters was not accepted. Must add that an inmate's testimony that swore she had been beaten inside the prison was also not accepted by the Court.

The only difference between the McCann and the Cipriano is that Leonor is poor and the McCann managed to get money from donors to make them wealthy.

Leonor was a mother of 6 by 5 different fathers. She abandoned her older daughter, now 23 y.o., when she was 11 months old. Abandoned her next son (now19 y.o.) when he was 2 months old. The 4th was left with relatives as soon as she was born. The only children she kept were Joana and 2 younger children by her last partner.
Joana’s teacher said she was a sad kid and that on her first day in school she arrived late and alone. But her troubles had begun earlier. When Joana was 5 months old, and later when she was 3 y.o. she was sent to her father. In September 2003, her mother left her for 3 weeks with an alcoholic couple, in a miserable house where also lived a person with an infect-contagious disease. But Joana always went back to her mother to take care of her and of the babies.

According to the Public Ministry accusation, at the beginning of the night in September 2004, after having gone to a café to buy milk and tuna, the little girl surprised her mother and uncle in an incestuous sexual act, on the living room sofa, and menaced she was going to tell to her stepfather. Immediately Leonor and João banged her head several times against a wall, until they killed her.

Afterwards, they slaughtered her body in order to better dispose of the cadaver. The several parts were put into plastic bags, which were for several days inside a freezer. After this the Public Ministry doesn’t risk to point a place to where the body was taken (after confessing and accepting to cooperate with the PJ, the arguidos gave more than 20 false leads about the whereabouts of the body).

Face and palm prints were found on the walls, and on the door sill, where by the position of the palm prints it is admissible that it was an attempt of the child to escape while being beaten to death (even though Leonor had tried to clean the house with petrol).

When in 2010 her lawyer wanted to request her being paroled, her family refused to accept her back - Her younger children’s aunt even requested that the children had their names officially changed in order to exclude the Cipriano surname, since it was a looked at as a stigma.

Leonor did in fact fake a suicide attempt by jumping down the stairs in the PJ headquarters, but on the 13th of October (not the 14th when she alleged the torture occurred), when her lawyer was in the interrogation room and she was coming from the rest room where she had requested to go. Of course she was blocked by the officer that was accompanying her back into the room and the only injuries she suffered were bruised knees.

In February 2013, the Court of Faro tried Leonor and condemned her for having lied about her alleged “torture”. She was sentenced for another 7 months to add to her previous 16 years as a murderer.

I hope that the McCann remaining children never feel the way Leonor’s children feel.

Some sources:
Revista Visão nº657, 6 de Outubro 2005
http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1564608&seccao=Sul&page=1
http://expresso.sapo.pt/caso-joana-leonor-cipriano-admite-tese-da-venda=f492359
http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/leonor-cipriano-condenada-a-sete-meses-de-prisao-por-falsas-declaracoes-1589891
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 10:21:48 AM
Let's face it the court accepted as proven that Leonor was beaten by the PJ before being returned to her prison cell.  For you to deny this Luz makes you look just as silly as Sadie.   Leonor was also probably set upon by fellow inmates such was the dreadful nature of her crime.  As for the alleged falling down stairs we will never know the truth of this.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 11, 2013, 10:23:56 AM
Let's face it the court accepted as proven that Leonor was beaten by the PJ before being returned to her prison cell.  She was also probably set upon by fellow inmates such was the dreadful nature if her crime.

The Court accepted she had been beaten, but by unknown.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 10:24:17 AM
Wasn't the confession signed on the 12th of October?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 11, 2013, 10:27:15 AM
During the Court Trial, the lawyer, when he saw how loose his case was, even tried to allege the PJ had welcomed strangers inside their facilities to beat the woman....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 10:38:22 AM
During the Court Trial, the lawyer, when he saw how loose his case was, even tried to allege the PJ had welcomed strangers inside their facilities to beat the woman....

Ah, those PJ Officers sent down from Lisbon so they wouldn't be recognized?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 10:41:05 AM
The Court accepted she had been beaten, but by unknown.
That's what I read too.
Life in jail for a child's murderer is worse than hell.
Was the intervention of Metodo 3 investigated ? Why was their contract re-conducted in March 2008 after the hoax of Madeleine's return for Xmas ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
No, John, it's a tabloid reporting..
The 3 police officers accused of torture were exonerated and GA wasn't accused to falsify a document in order to cover that up.
http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/caso-joana-goncalo-amaral-condenado-a-ano-e-meio-de-prisao-com-pena-suspensa-1382307.

Translation

The Court of Faro today condemned by false allegations to a year in prison with a suspended sentence the former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral , in these case relating to the alleged aggressions against Leonor Cipriano by PJ inspectors . However , the accused was acquitted of the crime of omission of denunciation (failure to report a crime).

The inspector António Cardoso was also convicted with suspended sentence, two years and three months in prison . The remaining defendants were acquitted because despite having been proved that Leonor Cipriano was assaulted on the premises of PJ, we could not identify the perpetrators . According to the chairman of the panel of judges , the case is " particularly serious in people who aim to fight crime."

The court also stated that the testimony in court of the girl's mother was contradictory, which did not help to establish the facts . Similarly it was not possible to prove that she fell from the stairs, as claimed by the defence. The prosecutor or the assistants can now turn, respectively, with the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal.

The process is related to the so-called " Joana case ", dating back to September 12, 2004 , the day the girl, aged eight, disappeared from the village of Figueira, Portimão, Algarve.

A reading of the judgement was made ​​this afternoon by Chairman of the judges. The charges of the Prosecutor against five inspectors and former inspectors Judicial emerged following the interrogation by the PJ in Faro in 2004 , when Leonor appeared with lesions on her face and body in Prison Beja, where she was on remand.

Three inspectors were accused of the crime of torture, one was accused of the crime of perjury and failure to report and a fifth was accused of the crime of document forgery. The trial began on 27 October 2008.

Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, and uncle, John Cipriano were sentenced by the Supreme Court to 16 years in prison each, for the crimes of murder and concealment of a body of the child. Four days ago, the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano, Aragão Correia, requested the opening of a new investigation in the "Joana case " and the acquittal of the girl's mother, after John Cipriano confessed in writing that he tried to sell her.

Not so.  She was beaten within the PJ premises.  You might want to read this Portuguese article posted by Anne.  Hint.. take note of the bold text.

So, tell me,  who normally assaults suspects in a police station??
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 11:03:34 AM
That's what I read too.
Life in jail for a child's murderer is worse than hell.

Was the intervention of Metodo 3 investigated ? Why was their contract re-conducted in March 2008 after the hoax of Madeleine's return for Xmas ?

So do you think the Director of the Prison committed perjury Anne?


Quote from
Statewatch article: RefNo# 29207
 
Portugal: Report on torture suffered by Leonor Cipriano
SPECIAL SECURITY CHAIN ​​OF ODEMIRA

The prison director

Correia then spoke to Odemira prison director Ana Maria Calado, who confirmed Leonor Cipriano's account, noting how shocked she was about her conditions, with black marks, haematomae and bruising in her face, mainly around her eyes, her head and ribs, mainly on her sides. She assured that the physical marks clearly indicated a violent aggression and not a fall down some stairs, something the legal-medical report also confirmed. She noted that Cipriano's conditions worsened a week after she was tortured, as the blood that had gathered at the height of her brows was so much that it ended up falling over her eyes, leaving her practically blind for almost a month, and the director regrets not having ordered photographs of this period to be taken.

 She also said that relations between Cipriano and the prison guards and other prisoners were good, and that she did not believe that she had attempted suicide.

Calado expressed her surprise for a number of facts: a) that the judicial police did not take Cipriano to a health centre in Faro to certify that she had fallen down some stairs; b) that the day of her interrogation was chosen during Calado's week of holidays, when she would never have allowed her to be picked up at 6 a.m. without a formal request by the judicial police; and c) that judicial police officers who arrived from Lisbon to investigate the allegations of torture proposed sharing the blame between the judicial police and prison, something she refused.  Correia praised the director, describing her as "courageous" and as prizing "values" more highly than "corporate interests".END QUOTE


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 11:11:08 AM
There is lots of evidence that Joana was murdered and it is disingenuous for anyone to post the contrary.  Another piece of evidence which clearly points to her having been disposed of is that her shoes were all there in the house.  Does anyone really believe that Joana went out without her shoes??  You can't be that naive surely??
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 11:38:46 AM
There is lots of evidence that Joana was murdered and it is disingenuous for anyone to post the contrary.  Another piece of evidence which clearly points to her having been disposed of is that her shoes were all there in the house.  Does anyone really believe that Joana went out without her shoes??  You can't be that naive surely??

Nothing to do with naievety imo Angelo.  There is no forensic evidence that Joana was murdered by LC  and the court threw out the motive for a murder to have taken place - given by the PJ.   Those are the facts.  No motive and no evidence.

IMO Apart from that - once torture had been established, the verdict should have been automatically declared 'Unsafe' as nothing which had been presented as evidence incriminating LC could be relied upon to be credible - including evidence put forward by the PJ about shoes.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 11, 2013, 12:07:50 PM
Nothing to do with naievety imo Angelo.  There is no forensic evidence that Joana was murdered by LC  and the court threw out the motive for a murder to have taken place - given by the PJ.   Those are the facts.  No motive and no evidence.

IMO Apart from that - once torture had been established, the verdict should have been automatically declared 'Unsafe' as nothing which had been presented as evidence incriminating LC could be relied upon to be credible - including evidence put forward by the PJ about shoes.

Well, three judges and three jurors disagree with you and they disagreed on all appeals too....you must know better?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 12:17:01 PM
Well, three judges and three jurors disagree with you and they disagreed on all appeals too....you must know better?

One Judge refused to find Leonor Cipriano guilty, and said that he believes that she is innocent.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 12:26:26 PM
Well, three judges and three jurors disagree with you and they disagreed on all appeals too....you must know better?

 You have been denying she was beaten by the pj for months and now you have been shown the truth..
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 12:39:07 PM
Leonor Ciprianos actions the night that Joana disappeared says it all in my opinion.  She never went out at all to look for her.  Instead she stayed in the house and 'cleaned up'.

Neither Leonor or Joano contacted the police.  Leonor made the pathetic excuse that she had no credit on her mobile phone.  So what??  Emergency calls to 112 are free!!

What does apologist Sadie say about that??

I really don't know what happened in this case.

Standing back from the unproven suppositions, what I think I understand from the timeline of that night:

Leonor, the 3 kids and João were apparently home. Leandro had gone off to this village fête.

- Joana was sent out on an errand at "around 20:00".

- Joana was last seen walking towards home between 20:30/40.

- 21:30 João went to tell Leandro and friend that she hadn't come home. Leonor stays home with 2 other kids. Shortly after that all three men come home and note that Joana still hasn't come home. Leandro and friend go off to search. João stays home with Leonor.

- Between 22:30-23:00, Leonor goes off to the shop to see if she'd actually been there. João seems to have stayed at home.

- Bearing in mind the "village fête" atmosphere, at around 0:40 (now 13 Sept), the shopkeeper phones GNR. Had Leonor gone off to search / find people she knew who she may have been with? People who may have seen her? Phoned friends/family? (Did anyone from forensics actually check phones?) Then, gone back to the shop to check again, at which point the shopkeeper offered to call?

- At some point, during the night, she apparently talked to the GNR around the church area. (Why is this "around" a certain time? Did the investigation check?

- Later that morning, she and João went to make a formal statement at the GNR station in Portimão.


If my understanding of that timeline is correct (and there is latitude as to the times noted/recorded, as there doesn't seem to be corroboration):

- Are the prosecution allegations:

-- feasible within that timeframe? Yes, they could be, but there was never any corroborating evidence.

-- plausible

---within that timeframe? I have a few problems with that: you send a child on an errand to a bar/shop that is only 420m from home and engage in incestuous sex (for which there is no concrete evidence) in the living-room? In a house to which Leandro and friend could have returned for x, y, or z reasons at any time?

---- If the neighour's approximate timing is more or less accurate, Joana came home, discovered this "bad thing" going on, got her head bashed to death against a wall, (without, presumably the other kids waking up - were they questioned?), the bloodbath cleaned up, her body temporarily hidden from view (presumably), then chopped up in the living-room with an attempt to stuff the dismembered parts in what may have been a  fridge/combo* that anyone in the family could have accessed the following morning.

* What this "arca frigorifica"? It doesn't seem clear. Literally a refrigeration case. What does that mean? A fridge? A fridge/freezer combo? How big - they were quite poor. A separate deep freeze? The term for deep-freeze would seem to be "arca congeladora", which isn't the term that I've found in the Supreme Court judgement.

- If it's a deep-freeze, then ok, but few people would normally check the contents of a deep-freeze on a daily basis.

- If it actually means a fridge (even a small one with a freezer compartment), that could still be feasible if the occupants only opened the fridge part the next morning to get, e.g., milk for breakfast.

With such a massacre, wouldn't forensics have found evidence?

- The traces of (unidentified) blood found in a chink of a drawer of this "arca frigorífica" don't seem to have been identified as belonging to anyone.

-- The body was supposed to have been wrapped in a duvet cover and stuffed in the corner of a bedroom at some point? When? Was this duvet cover analysed? 

I haven't found any forensic evidence about the fate of this child in the Supreme Court judgement.

Perhaps one or both who are serving a long sentence are in fact guilty, in which case they deserve their terms, in my view. But what if they weren't? What hard evidence is there?


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 12:41:23 PM
I really don't know what happened in this case.

Standing back from the unproven suppositions, what I think I understand from the timeline of that night:

Leonor, the 3 kids and João were apparently home. Leandro had gone off to this village fête.

- Joana was sent out on an errand at "around 20:00".

- Joana was last seen walking towards home between 20:30/40.

- 21:30 João went to tell Leandro and friend that she hadn't come home. Leonor stays home with 2 other kids. Shortly after that all three men come home and note that Joana still hasn't come home. Leandro and friend go off to search. João stays home with Leonor.

- Between 22:30-23:00, Leonor goes off to the shop to see if she'd actually been there. João seems to have stayed at home.

- Bearing in mind the "village fête" atmosphere, at around 0:40 (now 13 Sept), the shopkeeper phones GNR. Had Leonor gone off to search / find people she knew who she may have been with? People who may have seen her? Phoned friends/family? (Did anyone from forensics actually check phones?) Then, gone back to the shop to check again, at which point the shopkeeper offered to call?

- At around 02:00, she apparently talked to the GNR around the church area. (Why is this "around" a certain time? Did the investigation check?

- Later that morning, she and João went to make a formal statement at the GNR station in Portimão.


If my understanding of that timeline is correct (and there is latitude as to the times noted/recorded, as there doesn't seem to be corroboration):

- Are the prosecution allegations:

-- feasible within that timeframe? Yes, they could be, but there was never any corroborating evidence.

-- plausible

---within that timeframe? I have a few problems with that: you send a child on an errand to a bar/shop that is only 420m from home and engage in incestuous sex (for which there is no concrete evidence) in the living-room? In a house to which Leandro and friend could have returned for x, y, or z reasons at any time?

---- If the neighour's approximate timing is more or less accurate, Joana came home, discovered this "bad thing" going on, got her head bashed to death against a wall, (without, presumably the other kids waking up - were they questioned?), the bloodbath cleaned up, her body temporarily hidden from view (presumably), then chopped up in the living-room with an attempt to stuff the dismembered parts in what may have been a  fridge/combo* that anyone in the family could have accessed the following morning.

* What this "arca frigorifica"? It doesn't seem clear. Literally a refrigeration case. What does that mean? A fridge? A fridge/freezer combo? How big - they were quite poor. A separate deep freeze? The term for deep-freeze would seem to be "arca congeladora", which isn't the term that I've found in the Supreme Court judgement.

- If it's a deep-freeze, then ok, but few people would normally check the contents of a deep-freeze on a daily basis.

- If it actually means a fridge (even a small one with a freezer compartment), that could still be feasible if the occupants only opened the fridge part the next morning to get, e.g., milk for breakfast.

With such a massacre, wouldn't forensics have found evidence?

- The traces of (unidentified) blood found in a chink of a drawer of this "arca frigorífica" don't seem to have been identified as belonging to anyone.

-- The body was supposed to have been wrapped in a duvet cover and stuffed in the corner of a bedroom at some point? When? Was this duvet cover analysed? 

I haven't found any forensic evidence about the fate of this child in the Supreme Court judgement.

Perhaps one or both who are serving a long sentence are in fact guilty, in which case they deserve their terms, in my view. But what if they weren't? What hard evidence is there?

As far as I can see no hard evidence..just the confessions.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:47:07 PM
Leonor Ciprianos actions the night that Joana disappeared says it all in my opinion.  She never went out at all to look for her.  Instead she stayed in the house and 'cleaned up'.

Neither Leonor or Joano contacted the police.  Leonor made the pathetic excuse that she had no credit on her mobile phone.  So what??  Emergency calls to 112 are free!!

What does apologist Sadie say about that??
Leonor Cipriano had two other quite young children.  After all you have said about Kate and Gerry, how do you square Leonor going out and leaving them? 

Remember - the Mccann childrens apartment was within sight and hearing and only about 50 metres away.
The children were soundly asleep before Kate and Gerry went for their meal 50 metres away, and they were checked visually every half hour.


One strandard for the Mccanns and another for Leonor, eh ?

So Angelo, do you think that Leonor should have gone out looking ... and leaving her little ones unattended?  


As for mobiles in 2004 in rural PT. 
Come on pull the other one.  I doubt she had one.  Remember she wasn't working and had little money. 


If there was a mobile, it is most likely that the man the house would have it.
Leonor was not working, apart from keeping a nice clean home and feading and looking after her children in an examplorary manner according to photographs.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 12:54:07 PM
I modified a sentence in my previous post that I felt wasn't totally accurate or badly worded.

I have loads of questions - whoever may be responsible for this little girl's disappearance.

Perhaps these two people were in fact responsible. Who knows? However, I have not seen any evidence, aside from shoehorning allegations, strangely taken as "fact",  that could corroborate anything concrete.

How could people be convicted for such long sentences... on the basis of such flimsy evidence?

I really don't understand.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 12:56:27 PM
As far as I can see no hard evidence..just the confessions.

There undoubtedly is evidence Dave but you choose to ignore it for some reason?

They had every means to contact the police Sadie, in fact the police were stationed at the Fair just down the road so no excuses.  In my opinion the Court was correct to find her guilty of collusion certainly given all the circumstances.  I believe the brother did the dirty deed though since he was quite capable of it given his history of monstrous violence.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
There undoubtedly is evidence Dave but you choose to ignore it for some reason?

 Im not ignoring it ..where is it ... I haven't seen it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
I really don't know what happened in this case.

Standing back from the unproven suppositions, what I think I understand from the timeline of that night:

Leonor, the 3 kids and João were apparently home. Leandro had gone off to this village fête.

- Joana was sent out on an errand at "around 20:00".

- Joana was last seen walking towards home between 20:30/40.

- 21:30 João went to tell Leandro and friend that she hadn't come home. Leonor stays home with 2 other kids. Shortly after that all three men come home and note that Joana still hasn't come home. Leandro and friend go off to search. João stays home with Leonor.

- Between 22:30-23:00, Leonor goes off to the shop to see if she'd actually been there. João seems to have stayed at home.

- Bearing in mind the "village fête" atmosphere, at around 0:40 (now 13 Sept), the shopkeeper phones GNR. Had Leonor gone off to search / find people she knew who she may have been with? People who may have seen her? Phoned friends/family? (Did anyone from forensics actually check phones?) Then, gone back to the shop to check again, at which point the shopkeeper offered to call?

- At some point, during the night, she apparently talked to the GNR around the church area. (Why is this "around" a certain time? Did the investigation check?

- Later that morning, she and João went to make a formal statement at the GNR station in Portimão.


If my understanding of that timeline is correct (and there is latitude as to the times noted/recorded, as there doesn't seem to be corroboration):

- Are the prosecution allegations:

-- feasible within that timeframe? Yes, they could be, but there was never any corroborating evidence.

-- plausible

---within that timeframe? I have a few problems with that: you send a child on an errand to a bar/shop that is only 420m from home and engage in incestuous sex (for which there is no concrete evidence) in the living-room? In a house to which Leandro and friend could have returned for x, y, or z reasons at any time?

---- If the neighour's approximate timing is more or less accurate, Joana came home, discovered this "bad thing" going on, got her head bashed to death against a wall, (without, presumably the other kids waking up - were they questioned?), the bloodbath cleaned up, her body temporarily hidden from view (presumably), then chopped up in the living-room with an attempt to stuff the dismembered parts in what may have been a  fridge/combo* that anyone in the family could have accessed the following morning.

* What this "arca frigorifica"? It doesn't seem clear. Literally a refrigeration case. What does that mean? A fridge? A fridge/freezer combo? How big - they were quite poor. A separate deep freeze? The term for deep-freeze would seem to be "arca congeladora", which isn't the term that I've found in the Supreme Court judgement.

- If it's a deep-freeze, then ok, but few people would normally check the contents of a deep-freeze on a daily basis.

- If it actually means a fridge (even a small one with a freezer compartment), that could still be feasible if the occupants only opened the fridge part the next morning to get, e.g., milk for breakfast.

With such a massacre, wouldn't forensics have found evidence?

- The traces of (unidentified) blood found in a chink of a drawer of this "arca frigorífica" don't seem to have been identified as belonging to anyone.

-- The body was supposed to have been wrapped in a duvet cover and stuffed in the corner of a bedroom at some point? When? Was this duvet cover analysed? 

I haven't found any forensic evidence about the fate of this child in the Supreme Court judgement.

Perhaps one or both who are serving a long sentence are in fact guilty, in which case they deserve their terms, in my view. But what if they weren't? What hard evidence is there?
A brilliant analysis Carana. Well done!

The only thing that I would like to add is that it was reported that the last time she was seen was walking up the steps to the church, which is approximately half way home.  Approx 200 metres to go, according to reports
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:00:53 PM
I have no idea what happened to little Joana. Tragically, some kids are abused to death by those closest to them.

What is the hard evidence that this happened in this case??

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:02:08 PM
Im not ignoring it ..where is it ... I haven't seen it

Stop being so obtuse Dave and open your eyes.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 01:02:56 PM
There undoubtedly is evidence Dave but you choose to ignore it for some reason?

They had every means to contact the police Sadie, in fact the police were stationed at the Fair just down the road so no excuses.  In my opinion the Court was correct to find her guilty of collusion certainly given all the circumstances.  I believe the brother did the dirty deed though.
I would be interested to read that info John.  Please could you guide me to it, with werbsite address?

Thank you.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 01:04:12 PM
Stop being so obtuse Dave and open your eyes.
That's not your usual srtandard of response John

Dave asked a civil question
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:05:33 PM
Stop being so obtuse Dave and open your eyes.

quite simply..can you tell me where I can see the evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 01:06:54 PM
Stop being so obtuse Dave and open your eyes.

Can you explain why one of The Judges refused to find Leonor Guilty?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:07:50 PM
That's not your usual srtandard of response John

Dave asked a civil question

No he didn't, he is just being flippant.  There is lots of evidence in the Cipriano case, agreed much of it is circumstantial but it is still evidence and for anyone to say there isn't is a nonsense.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:08:31 PM
Can you explain why one of The Judges refused to find Leonor Guilty?

No idea.  That's why they have more than one Judge.  Not every judicial decision is unanimous.

Now lets look at the reverse of the coin.  What evidence is there that they are innocent?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:10:27 PM
A brilliant analysis Carana. Well done!

The only thing that I would like to add is that it was reported that the last time she was seen was walking up the steps to the church, which is approximately half way home.  Approx 200 metres to go, according to reports

Thank you, Sadie.

According to the SC judgement, the neighbour who went out onto the balcony saw her on her way home from the shop.

It may well have been half-way... but you are far better than I am at working out distances.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 01:12:24 PM
No idea.  That's why they have more than one Judge.  Not every judicial decision is unanimous.

Two to One?  Hardly anywhere near unanimous.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:13:31 PM
No idea.  That's why they have more than one Judge.  Not every judicial decision is unanimous.

Now lets look at the reverse of the coin.  What evidence is there that they are innocent?

Guilty until proven innocent?

There was a jury in that case... How well prepared were they to go against the baying crowds?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 11, 2013, 01:13:34 PM
What was she walking on Sadie?  Did she leave her shoes at home just for the hell of it??   @)(++(*

... removed mod comment ...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:17:19 PM
What was she walking on Sadie?  Did she leave her shoes at home just for the hell of it??   @)(++(*

.... removed mod comment ...

I find that a bit* flippant in the case of a missing child with no concrete evidence as to her fate.

* ETA: more than...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:17:45 PM
No he didn't, he is just being flippant.  There is lots of evidence in the Cipriano case, agreed much of it is circumstantial but it is still evidence and for anyone to say there isn't is a nonsense.


I think you misunderstand John.. I haven't seen any evidence apart from the confessions..you keep saying there's lots of evidence..well where is it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:19:52 PM
Always remember that a now former member lectured some the other day on the difference between evidence and proof?

We didn't need a lecture ..most of us understand the difference...its quite obvious. Strange you bring this up because when I asked the former member for the evidence he became abusive
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:23:29 PM
We didn't need a lecture ..most of us understand the difference...its quite obvious. Strange you bring this up because when I asked the former member for the evidence he became abusive

I didn't see all the posts since the mods intervened.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
What was she walking on Sadie?  Did she leave her shoes at home just for the hell of it??   @)(++(*

ps  I have censured you for promoting lies Sadie.

Always remember that a now former member lectured some the other day on the difference between evidence and proof?

Get real Dave,  the blood stains, the delay in contacting police, the shoes still at home, the lies, the confessions, the ever changing story, the dozen or more claims by Leonor as to where the girls remains lay...

I could go on and on all day but I don't want to labour the point.  Its simpler to look at evidence of innocence.  Why would an innocent mother spout such nonsense?

A challenge for you all...where is this evidence of their INNOCENCE?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:24:45 PM
I didn't see all the posts since the mods intervened.

 Fair enough
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:26:23 PM
Always remember that a now former member lectured some the other day on the difference between evidence and proof?

Get real Dave,  the blood stains, the delay in contacting police, the shoes still at home, the lies, the confessions, the ever changing story, the dozen or more claims by Leonor as to where the girls remains lay...

I could go on and on all day but I don't want to labour the point.  Its simpler to look at evidence of innocence.

Is there any?  A challenge for you all...where is this evidence of INNOCENCE?

And how would a similar situation have worked out for you, depending on which country you were in at the time?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:26:58 PM
 (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c023.gif)   I have reports to publish and edit so will catch up later when you have listed all the evidence of their innocence.   
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:28:10 PM
Sorry, I have reports to publish and edit so will catch up later when you have listed all the evidence of their innocence.   8((()*/

no one has to prove their innocence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:29:25 PM
Always remember that a now former member lectured some the other day on the difference between evidence and proof?

Get real Dave,  the blood stains, the delay in contacting police, the shoes still at home, the lies, the confessions, the ever changing story, the dozen or more claims by Leonor as to where the girls remains lay...

I could go on and on all day but I don't want to labour the point.  Its simpler to look at evidence of innocence.  Why would an innocent mother spout such nonsense?

A challenge for you all...where is this evidence of their INNOCENCE?

 Yes the blood stains that did not match Joannas DNA
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Matthew Wyse on November 11, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
Yes the blood stains that did not match Joannas DNA

Evidence  WOOPEE !!! @)(++(*
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 01:32:23 PM
Always remember that a now former member lectured some the other day on the difference between evidence and proof?

Get real Dave,  the blood stains, the delay in contacting police, the shoes still at home, the lies, the confessions, the ever changing story, the dozen or more claims by Leonor as to where the girls remains lay...

I could go on and on all day but I don't want to labour the point.  Its simpler to look at evidence of innocence.  Why would an innocent mother spout such nonsense?

A challenge for you all...where is this evidence of their INNOCENCE?

This could have been you...

What evidence are you supporting?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Matthew Wyse on November 11, 2013, 01:34:47 PM
I must admit I cant think of any evidence which shows Leonor in any light except a bad one     8-)(--)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
The Court didnt give her a very good write up...


9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

e) the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulties in expressing frustration, while her socialisation was marked by immature, superficial and narcissistic interpersonal relationships, where characteristics of manipulation (to satisfy her own needs) and aggressiveness (of mainly sadistic tonality) are stand out, while in her personality the absence of empathy and the insensibility are salient, leading to the arguida’s despise for other people’s rights, needs and sentiments, directing her aggressiveness towards them, with a weak capacity to feel remorse. She possesses a borderline personality with anti-social/psychopathic, narcissistic and schizoid traits;

f) the arguida BB, who has six children from five relationships, has been showing some lack of interest in her elder children, throughout her life;

That last point would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
The Court didnt give her a very good write up...


9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

e) the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulties in expressing frustration, while her socialisation was marked by immature, superficial and narcissistic interpersonal relationships, where characteristics of manipulation (to satisfy her own needs) and aggressiveness (of mainly sadistic tonality) are stand out, while in her personality the absence of empathy and the insensibility are salient, leading to the arguida’s despise for other people’s rights, needs and sentiments, directing her aggressiveness towards them, with a weak capacity to feel remorse. She possesses a borderline personality with anti-social/psychopathic, narcissistic and schizoid traits;

f) the arguida BB, who has six children from five relationships, has been showing some lack of interest in her elder children, throughout her life;

That last point would be funny if it wasn't so sad!

doesn't make her a murderer
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 01:44:24 PM
doesn't make her a murderer

Agreed but it still considered part of the bigger picture.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 01:59:37 PM
The Court didnt give her a very good write up...


9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:

e) the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulties in expressing frustration, while her socialisation was marked by immature, superficial and narcissistic interpersonal relationships, where characteristics of manipulation (to satisfy her own needs) and aggressiveness (of mainly sadistic tonality) are stand out, while in her personality the absence of empathy and the insensibility are salient, leading to the arguida’s despise for other people’s rights, needs and sentiments, directing her aggressiveness towards them, with a weak capacity to feel remorse. She possesses a borderline personality with anti-social/psychopathic, narcissistic and schizoid traits;

f) the arguida BB, who has six children from five relationships, has been showing some lack of interest in her elder children, throughout her life;

That last point would be funny if it wasn't so sad!

Who wrote that Report, if you please?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 02:10:56 PM
I am still reading into this case and I wonder if someone can kindly point me to the evidence that the child saw her mother and uncle having incestuous activities?, Since the poor child disappeared on that day.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 02:15:58 PM
I am still reading into this case and I wonder if someone can kindly point me to the evidence that the child saw her mother and uncle having incestuous activities?, Since the poor child disappeared on that day.

Whatever happened in this case, I have never seen anything to corroborate (in any forensic sense) that she even got back home that evening, let alone what was alleged to have happened to her.

ETA: Further thoughts....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 02:17:33 PM
Who wrote that Report, if you please?

It is an extract from the Supreme Court decision so it was written by the Judges.

English translation (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html)

Original Portuguese Report (http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 02:23:38 PM
I am still reading into this case and I wonder if someone can kindly point me to the evidence that the child saw her mother and uncle having incestuous activities?, Since the poor child disappeared on that day.

It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 02:28:20 PM
It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?

I don't believe she left home, but wondered who and why this was reported, Thank you John
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 02:35:11 PM
It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?


The initial police force contacted was the GNR (between late on 12, early hours of 13 Sept 2004), and a formal report filed with the GNR on 13 Sept.

How would you have felt if it had been one of your own kids missing in a tiny (rural) village?

ETA: An 8-year-old, missing for a few hours in the midst of a village fête?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 02:42:11 PM
It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?

What evidence is there to corroborate that?

Where is all this evidence of having butchered her and disposed of her?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 02:50:38 PM
It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?

How was this verified?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 03:03:15 PM

The initial police force contacted was the GNR (between late on 12, early hours of 13 Sept 2004), and a formal report filed with the GNR on 13 Sept.

How would you have felt if it had been one of your own kids missing in a tiny (rural) village?

ETA: An 8-year-old, missing for a few hours in the midst of a village fête?

I cant see any proof that she returned home, Did I miss it ? Also can not understand all the stuff about 5 father 6 children. Why should such responsibility fall on a mother? In the UK such mothers would be given financial aid, but I don't know about portugal
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 03:04:22 PM
It is an extract from the Supreme Court decision so it was written by the Judges.

English translation (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html)

Original Portuguese Report (http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano)

The Judges will not have decided on her mental health as they are not qualified to do so.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 03:11:10 PM

The initial police force contacted was the GNR (between late on 12, early hours of 13 Sept 2004), and a formal report filed with the GNR on 13 Sept.

How would you have felt if it had been one of your own kids missing in a tiny (rural) village?

ETA: An 8-year-old, missing for a few hours in the midst of a village fête?

Incredibly the GNR officer who LC spoke to (near the church) told her to come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up.   So it seems that officer didn't see any need to take immediate action.    In fact even when the report was filed on 13th - the PJ were still not notified at that time.    An incredibly lax approach from the beginning IMO.

 



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 03:20:21 PM
I cant see any proof that she returned home, Did I miss it ? Also can not understand all the stuff about 5 fathers 6 children. Why should such responsibility fall on a mother? In the UK such mothers would be given financial aid, but I don't know about portugal

Sorry! Of course all her shoes were at home,,,,, Silly Me!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 03:20:40 PM
The Judges will not have decided on her mental health as they are not qualified to do so.

Isn't that why they have experts assigned to the Court?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 03:24:35 PM
Incredibly the GNR officer who LC spoke to (near the church) told her to come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up.   So it seems that officer didn't see any need to take immediate action.    In fact even when the report was filed on 13th - the PJ were still not notified at that time.    An incredibly lax approach from the beginning IMO.

 

So many of the spurious accusations are explained if one bothers to look into the case.

I don't know about the shoes, but for years neither I or my children wore shoes, and I went shopping without shoe more often than not.  I have only this last month started to wear shoes again because it is getting cold.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 03:25:55 PM
Isn't that why they have experts assigned to the Court?

so what was his name and qualifications?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 03:28:48 PM
It was unproven Anna.

Maybe Carana too believes she went out in her bare feet and left all her shoes at home.

Where is all this evidence of her innocence guys?
Very easy for PJ who seemingly make up a story about Joana finding her mother having sex with her own brother, to make up anotherr wee story about the shoes.   Just to add aother level of proof that  "they dunit"

Remember the two leading lights in this case, Ex Insp Goncalo Amaral and Ex Insp Paolo Cristavao either have a conviction against them for perjury (lying) or are allegedly currently being investigated on SEVEN charges of the fraud type.  Remember both Inspecators also made mega bucks after writing books about these cases and a bit of selacious gossip helps sell them.

Where both of them relieved of their positions in the PJ ?   

Are they the same PJ officers who say
 .........alternatively the Mother and Uncle cut up her body and fed it to the pigs?
 .... or alternatively took the body parts in a bag and dumped them in the hillsides ?
 .... or alternatively put her body in a car and sent it to be crushed in Spain ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 03:31:42 PM
I cant see any proof that she returned home, Did I miss it ? Also can not understand all the stuff about 5 father 6 children. Why should such responsibility fall on a mother? In the UK such mothers would be given financial aid, but I don't know about portugal
exactly anna

Welcome BTW  8((()*/
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 03:33:30 PM
So what did the people of Figueira think of all this?

With all that stuff against Leonor and Joao they must have hated them.  Tough for a mother on top of losing her child
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 03:39:48 PM
Try explaining why João Cipriano directed the police to look for her body in several different places if she had been abducted?  He wasn't being tortured at that time?

Still waiting on this evidence which will prove them innocent.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 03:43:02 PM
Try explaining why João Cipriano directed the police to look for her body in several different places if she had been abducted?  He wasn't being tortured at that time?

He was being threatened with torture.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Matthew Wyse on November 11, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
So what did the people of Figueira think of all this?

With all that stuff against Leonor and Joao they must have hated them.  Tough for a mother on top of losing her child

She gave them away like kittens.  What a sad excuse for a human being! 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 11, 2013, 03:55:53 PM
He was being threatened with torture.

The very fact that he indicated several different places proves he had no intention of revealing the truth.  Same applies to Leonor, if she was being honest about Joana's disappearance her story would have remained consistent.  As it was she told so many lies even one of the Judges had to warn her about perjury.  And as we all know she was prosecuted for that too and had her sentence increased.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 03:57:57 PM
Incredibly the GNR officer who LC spoke to (near the church) told her to come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up.   So it seems that officer didn't see any need to take immediate action.    In fact even when the report was filed on 13th - the PJ were still not notified at that time.    An incredibly lax approach from the beginning IMO.

 

The police didn't seem to have any standard protocol (nor modern resources) at the time.

I can understand that... but it doesn't explain the "conclusions" in the absence of verifiable evidence.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 03:59:53 PM
Try explaining why João Cipriano directed the police to look for her body in several different places if she had been abducted?  He wasn't being tortured at that time?

Still waiting on this evidence which will prove them innocent.

How can you prove you didn't do something when it's just a case of one person's word against another's

I could accuse my next door neighbour of lobbing a stone over the fence and hitting me on the head.  If she was in her garden at the time, and there are stones in her garden, and no witnesses - then apart from saying it wasn't her - how can she prove she didn't do it?     

This is surely why people are not required to prove innocence  -  and why innocence is presumed until guilt is proved.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 11, 2013, 04:03:08 PM
How can you prove you didn't do something when it's just a case of one person's word against another's

I could accuse my next door neighbour of lobbing a stone over the fence and hitting me on the head.  If she was in her garden at the time, and there are stones in her garden, and no witnesses - then apart from saying it wasn't her - how can she prove she didn't do it?     

This is surely why people are not required to prove innocence  -  and why innocence is presumed until guilt is proved.

This really should be obvious by now.  No one is required to prove their innocence.  This is just getting silly.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 11, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
The very fact that he indicated several different places proves he had no intention of revealing the truth.  Same applies to Leonor, if she was being honest about Joana's disappearance her story would have remained consistent.  As it was she told so many lies even one of the Judges had to warn her about perjury.  And as we all know she was prosecuted for that too and had her sentence increased.

Why - once they had confessed would they have any reason to withhold where they had hidden the body - or the murder weapons?  What could  they possibly have to gain by doing that once they had confessed ?    That makes no sense. 

Which trial are you talking about when the Judge warns LC about perjury?  She did not speak at her murder trial.
 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 11, 2013, 04:21:01 PM
Try explaining why João Cipriano directed the police to look for her body in several different places if she had been abducted?  He wasn't being tortured at that time?

Still waiting on this evidence which will prove them innocent.

As a victim of miscarriage yourself, I would have thought that you would be at least interested in other potential miscarriages of justice and would have been interested in establishing what any reliable evidence there may have  been (in either direction).

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 11, 2013, 04:55:31 PM
When a child goes missing without explanation police in every country think the unthinkable. It's not just one cop in Portugal.

All possibilities are unthinkable. Which one do you mean?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 05:03:47 PM
What was she walking on Sadie?  Did she leave her shoes at home just for the hell of it??   @)(++(*

ps  I have censured you for promoting lies Sadie.
Could you point me to my lies please Angelo?  I see you have given me an extra 10%.  Why? 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 05:19:43 PM
If Leonor was such a bad mother, why weren't the people of Figueira remarking on it?  I see no signs of that.

All the photographs show a wondserful relationship between Joana and her mother and her siblings and Leandro

And Joana looks so well nourished and almost radiantly happy.  She is nicely dressed too



Why did the authorities put out all the disinformation about her?  Was it Amaral and Cristavao or was it some other party spreading the propaganda?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 05:31:40 PM
The very fact that he indicated several different places proves he had no intention of revealing the truth.  Same applies to Leonor, if she was being honest about Joana's disappearance her story would have remained consistent.  As it was she told so many lies even one of the Judges had to warn her about perjury.  And as we all know she was prosecuted for that too and had her sentence increased.
John

I wish you would open your mind to what has happened.

A man and a woman have been clanged in jail on NO EVIDENCE except of the TORTURED OUT type.  A llittl girl may well have been abducted.  In fact without this tortured out stuff the indicators are there that she was abducted.

You seem to not even be prepared to consider what torture does to this case.  That because of this torture and the fact that the officers in charge are a couple of R....., with one being a proven liar in the PT courts, the case is totally unsafe.  TOTALLY and UTTERLY UNSAFE.  Sorry to shout, but I am very upset by the injustices in this case.


Are you unconcerned about Joanas welfare, or the total Miscarriage of Justice against Leonor and Joao?   Are you only concerned that Amarals nose must be kept clean?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 05:41:06 PM
John

I wish you would open your mind to what has happened.

A man and a woman have been clanged in jail on NO EVIDENCE except of the TORTURED OUT type.  A llittl girl may well have been abducted.  In fact without this tortured out stuff the indicators are there that she was abducted.

You seem to not even be prepared to consider what torture does to this case.  That because of this torture and the fact that the officers in charge are a couple of R....., with one being a proven liar in the PT courts, the case is totally unsafe.  TOTALLY and UTTERLY UNSAFE.  Sorry to shout, but I am very upset by the injustices in this case.


Are you unconcerned about Joanas welfare, or the total Miscarriage of Justice against Leonor and Joao?   Are you only concerned that Amarals nose must be kept clean?

Joana was murdered.

If you can prove otherwise, do so.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 06:13:26 PM
Joana was murdered.

If you can prove otherwise, do so.

I believe she was murdered....but by whom I am still unsure and from the little I have read about the evidence and  the mother with no criminal record I find it difficult to believe that she done it. Still very early days for me though
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 11, 2013, 08:51:57 PM
This has become such a pointless thread.......

No one has the police files on it or any court transcripts...so asking pointless questions about the minute details of the investigation is just that, pointless...... a supreme court decision and all it entailed.....is all we have....and what we have in that Nd in a few other places does NOT point to an innocent couple.....taking my leave....

Keep using the case to try and make the Mccanns seem white and Amaral black though.....after all, that is the whole point innit?
 8((()*/


Just ask yourselves one question.....Leonor gave her confession to the police in the presence of her original lawyer...on a date BEFORE she alledges she wasbeat up by police for it......  you think  he would  as her lawyer would  have reported her being beaten up beforehand? And why would the police beat a confession out when they already had it?

There is so much incriminatory evidence here its no wonder the verdict, was, not just once, but more times  on appeal, no reasonable doubt...whether it was her brother or both of them...they were both involved...in the uk its called joint enterprise......


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 09:53:49 PM
You tell a good story Red.

Now this original Lawyer.  Was he the one who was supposedly picked up by the PJ with drugs in his bag ... as he was going into the jail visiting?

Was he the one who was a close friend of Amarals ?   Now wasn't he at Amatals 50th birthday bash?.  You know the bash where Amaral anf his buddies  came out to watch the firwork display and seeing Marcos Aragao Correira and his previous 'bit on the side' outside in their car, a group set about trying to pull Marcos out of his car

Was this the lawyer that supposedly was taking Amaral on to train him also as a Lawyer?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 11, 2013, 09:56:10 PM
This has become such a pointless thread.......

No one has the police files on it or any court transcripts...so asking pointless questions about the minute details of the investigation is just that, pointless...... a supreme court decision and all it entailed.....is all we have....and what we have in that Nd in a few other places does NOT point to an innocent couple.....taking my leave....

Keep using the case to try and make the Mccanns seem white and Amaral black though.....after all, that is the whole point innit?
 8((()*/


Just ask yourselves one question.....Leonor gave her confession to the police in the presence of her original lawyer...on a date BEFORE she alledges she wasbeat up by police for it......  you think  he would  as her lawyer would  have reported her being beaten up beforehand? And why would the police beat a confession out when they already had it?  
There is so much incriminatory evidence here its no wonder the verdict, was, not just once, but more times  on appeal, no reasonable doubt...whether it was her brother or both of them...they were both involved...in the uk its called joint enterprise......

do you have any evidence to support this..you need to accept she was beaten by the pj
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 10:40:28 PM
I have added a link that you have probably already seen. I was looking for some info on Leona's partner, because a recent description reminded me of him.
 Looks like he sold them out! (Ciprianos)
http://www.algarveresident.com/10046-0/algarve/portugals-silent-child-victims
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 10:50:41 PM
I feel sorry for this Leonor and her miserable brother, manipulated by a self claimed medium lawyer paid by fishy PIs to discredit an inspector in order to sanctify a British couple !
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 11, 2013, 10:59:08 PM
I feel sorry for this Leonor and her miserable brother, manipulated by a self claimed medium lawyer paid by fishy PIs to discredit an inspector in order to sanctify a British couple !

I agree to a point , Anne,
 If she had the money from a fund, she could have got out too, but I don't feel sorry for the brother
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benita on November 11, 2013, 11:29:30 PM
can we keep this thread on topic please  ...and opposing pat stop the name calling and goading ..it makes you look silly and disruptive ...thank you  ?>)()<
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 12, 2013, 12:08:52 AM
There is far too much evidence in the Cipriano case for it to be called a miscarriage of justice.  Leonor and her brothers actions following the disappearance are not those of innocent people.  Could it be that the brother had some sort of hold over Leonor and took advantage of that situation??
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 12, 2013, 12:11:12 AM
I feel sorry for this Leonor and her miserable brother, manipulated by a self claimed medium lawyer paid by fishy PIs to discredit an inspector in order to sanctify a British couple !

I have to disagree Anne

Were this pair merely inadaquate,   (  we have been told that the brother  is below average intelligenec  ) and were it a case of the children involved being  neglected and ill treated as a consequence of that inadequecy,  then I might,  like you,  feel an uneasy compassion for a malfuntioning pair who had been brought up by an abusive  alchoholic father 

But it was  NOT  merely  'inadaquecy'  that these  dreadful siblings were charged with  ...  they were charged  (  and convicted )  of sadisically  beating a child to death 

I have no compassion for such monsters
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 12, 2013, 12:14:55 AM
It was said I believe by Leandro that the only difference between the Ciprianos and the McCanns was that the McCanns have money.  I'm afraid intelligence is also a major factor.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 12, 2013, 12:32:08 AM
It was said I believe by Leandro that the only difference between the Ciprianos and the McCanns was that the McCanns have money.  I'm afraid intelligence is also a major factor.


Simple-minded people being brought up in an environment where violence and abuse is part of everyday life is a dangerous combination

The brother being put in prison for four years having accepted money to  'do a murder'  is testiment to that

As is the mother of the murdered child having kids by a number of different men,  and then just abandoning them, like a litter of kittens 

The little girl,  called  'Cinderella'  by locals,  didn't have much of a chance in life from the start   ....  but having that life cut so brutally short is a  very sad thing indeed
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 12, 2013, 12:48:35 AM
NO REAL EVIDENCE Icabod.  Just tortured out stuff and the word/imagination of two discredited cops.

You weren't on the Jury sadie  ...  you have no  idea  what  'evidence'  was presented in Court  ... none of us do

What we DO  know,  however,  is that  whatever  that evidence was,  it was sufficient for this appalling couple to have been convicted of the sadistic murder of an eight year old child

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2013, 12:56:16 AM

Simple-minded people being brought up in an environment where violence and abuse is part of everyday life is a dangerous combination

The brother being put in prison for four years having accepted money to  'do a murder'  is testiment to that

As is the mother of the murdered child having kids by a number of different men,  and then just abandoning them, like a litter of kittens 

The little girl,  called  'Cinderella'  by locals,  didn't have much of a chance in life from the start   ....  but having that life cut so brutally short is a  very sad thing indeed

Called Cinderella was she.  Who said that?



Some declarations by neighbours and worthwhile members of the community, posted on here in an earlier thread.


--- Quote from: DCI on June 13, 2013, 08:52:17 PM ---Do you mean these neighbours.

Another witness heard earlier in the process, puts forward new facts through new document who wrote and signed the original of which is annexed to this pleading. These facts once again corroborate the statements above transcribed, and are completely independent of a person who does not have at present any relationship with the procedural subjects, but who at the time lived permanently with the Appellant and her daughter Joana, for when the girl disappeared already lived about 3 months with both in the same house (please note that this witness has also criminal involvement against various elements of the Judicial Police, even against Gonçalo Amaral, the torture of a victim who was also at the time). In fact, Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva, currently residing at *********************, declares as follows (typos corrected):

"Declaration

I hereby Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva, a resident of Pond Street Alfredo Keil, No. 12, 8400 Lagoa, I declare on my honor that I have lived with the missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, in the same house with his mother Leonor and stepfather Leandro in Figueira , about 3 months and never saw his mother Leonor hitting any of the children, because when I wanted to apply a punishment was always some who never passed for assault. We also declare that the mother Leonor was a calm person and unable to become violent so be it. So believe in the declaration of innocence of Mother Leonor.

Pond June 5, 2009

Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva. "

Another important witness corroborates: the last person that was guaranteed with Joan in public, then manager of Café Celia, where the girl was doing their last minute shopping before disappearing. Ophelia Maria Santos Glory Zeverino, residing in *****************Portimão, knew well the child and his family, not only because these are their regular customers, but also to be nearby them and also for their younger daughter named Rachel, being a good friend of Joan, and both almost the same age and playing almost every day with one another. In the original document here attached hereto, Ophelia Santos stated the following:

"Declaration

I hereby Ophelia Maria Santos Glory Zeverino, residing in District Che Lot No. 14 Figueira - Portimão, hereby declare that I who received the missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro Café "Celia" in the evening when she disappeared in September 12, 2004. He was also a neighbor of the girl, and declare that never saw the mother of Joana Maria Leonor Cipriano Sunday, beating his daughter. And I can also declare by also be true that the same girl Joana's mother always said well, even defending it in all circumstances.

Figueira June 2, 2009

Ophelia Maria Santos Zeverino Glory. "
 

We reached the largest adult friend of Joan. At the time owned the only supermarket Figueira ("Alisuper"), Nidia was Rochato the person outside the family of Joan helped more than this child, offering him food, clothes, toys, taking her to the doctor, etc.., etc.., in short, doing the job that it was for the state: to help the needy. But as the state does not socorria Joana nor his family, a kind heart and selfless moved and deleted so many difficulties with the struggling family. Perfectly cognizant of the child and their closest relatives, the Kings Rochato Nidia Maria, residing at Rua ******************Portimão, puts forward new facts through new document he wrote and signed, which original is attached to this pleading, and where you can read:

"Declaration

I hereby Nidia Maria dos Reis Rochato carrier BI No. 8641202 issued on 18/05/2005 Lisbon Street resident on April 25 Lot # *******************Portimão, hereby declare that the well-known missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Warrior, who I was very friendly, but also knew well his mother Leonor Cipriano Maria Domingos, so I can attest that the mother Leonor never knocked on her daughter Joan in my presence never heard that he had done so. I also declare that Joana Cipriano always well said the mother Leonor and always defended in all circumstances.
Figueira 02-June-2009

Nidia Rochato ".


You have seen the photographs of a very happy, bright, well nourished little girl.  One who is always neatly and cleanly dressed, who has her hair cut and washed regularly, who obviously loves her Mother and Leandro it seems.  She dearly loves her siblings from other photos I have and lives in a simple, but clean looking, home

You have read the declararations above.

You must know the Court case was totallly unsafe.

Why dont you give over ?  You are sounding unthinking, vindictive and very nasty




just whyare you so anxious to keep a couple of people who are probably innocent in jail ?

Why are you so keen to poopoo any chance that Joana is still alive ?



This vindictiveness and determination not to be fair.  For that there has to be a reason


.... removed provocative question ...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 12:56:54 AM
I have to disagree Anne

Were this pair merely inadaquate,   (  we have been told that the brother  is below average intelligenec  ) and were it a case of the children involved being  neglected and ill treated as a consequence of that inadequecy,  then I might,  like you,  feel an uneasy compassion for a malfuntioning pair who had been brought up by an abusive  alchoholic father 

But it was  NOT  merely  'inadaquecy'  that these  dreadful siblings were charged with  ...  they were charged  (  and convicted )  of sadisically  beating a child to death 

I have no compassion for such monsters
I'm certainly horrified, Icabodcrane, but I feel I have to try and understand.
This is for you, only for you
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/ (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 12, 2013, 01:07:38 AM

Simple-minded people being brought up in an environment where violence and abuse is part of everyday life is a dangerous combination

The brother being put in prison for four years having accepted money to  'do a murder'  is testiment to that

As is the mother of the murdered child having kids by a number of different men,  and then just abandoning them, like a litter of kittens 

The little girl,  called  'Cinderella'  by locals,  didn't have much of a chance in life from the start   ....  but having that life cut so brutally short is a  very sad thing indeed

9. 2. Facts considered not to be proved (during the trial ) :

1- that the arguida BB, throughout her life, failed to provide her children with basic care, mistreating them;

2- that HH, arguida BB’s son, was helped by neighbours;

3- that the arguida BB voted her daughter CC to disinterest and overloaded her with work, forcing her to carry out the domestic chores that she should perform but did not;
-------------------------------------------------

What has LC's brother's criminal activities  got to do with LC.     She doesn't have a criminal record. 

So she had children by different fathers  - does that make her a potential murderer? 

Do we know whether the fathers of her children were financially supporting them?    How do single mothers survive in Portugal?

Judging by the photographs of her home and of Joana - she was doing a pretty good job of things compared to some mothers.   Would you describe her home as 'filthy' - as the PJ did?

Easy to judge and condemn, when you don't know all the facts imo.   

The Press demonised LC in the press, way before she got to court.   So much for the Secrecy Laws.   

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 12, 2013, 01:11:33 AM
I'm certainly horrified, Icabodcrane, but I feel I have to try and understand.
This is for you, only for you
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/ (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/)

Ah  ...  one of my favourite films of all time

Now the theme song  ...  'What makes a man to wonder'  will be playing through my mind for ages   ?{)(**
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 12, 2013, 01:17:16 AM
Leanors partner Leandro was also beaten up, reputedly by Amaral.  He was beaten up to give a witness statement.  At one time there was going to be a Court case about his having been beaten up, but seems that might have been dropped.

Just who would be brave enough to take a member of the PJ to Court?  It needs superhuman guts it seems to me.


I feel so sad for the lovely people of Portugal that they should have been "sold" the story that they are now in a Democracy, and most believed it .... when clearly it is still a Police State. 

Fascism rules

Yes Sadie,
Thank you, I found it and he wanted compensation for his injuries...seems there was witness too . He must have settled out of court. I am learning fast!
 It's a long way down on here     http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2013, 01:25:10 AM
You weren't on the Jury sadie  ...  you have no  idea  what  'evidence'  was presented in Court  ... none of us do

What we DO  know,  however,  is that  whatever  that evidence was,  it was sufficient for this appalling couple to have been convicted of the sadistic murder of an eight year old child
There were three Judges.  We know that the one Judge was appalled by the rulings and protested about the injustices of the case.  So Leonor and Joao were jailed on a two to one verdict, as Eleanor poiinted out.    And all the weight of the PJ against them.   Along with all the torture and NO REAL EVIDENCE, it was very very unsafe



Also, it seems that Leonors original lawyer, Joao Grade, was a friend of Amaral who was the head honcho on the case.  Joao Grade, Leonors lawyer, was at Amarals 50th birthdy party and at one time was going to train him to becoming a lawyer, they said. >@@(*&)

That all seems a bit cozy to me !   I think that in British Law, the Courts would require a "Delaration of Interest" in a case where the lawyer for the defence is a close friend of the Prosecuting party.


I think I am using the wrong term above, but hope you understand my meaning.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 12, 2013, 05:16:52 AM
You weren't on the Jury sadie  ...  you have no  idea  what  'evidence'  was presented in Court  ... none of us do

What we DO  know,  however,  is that  whatever  that evidence was,  it was sufficient for this appalling couple to have been convicted of the sadistic murder of an eight year old child



Same for any other eventually proved miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 07:06:41 AM
Same for any other eventually proved miscarriage of justice.


What makes you think the Cipriano case was a miscarriage of justice ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Aiofe on November 12, 2013, 07:34:18 AM

What makes you think the Cipriano case was a miscarriage of justice ?

General scepticism over cases settled via confessions where coercion or torture are a possibility. Police are the same the world over- convictions are more important than justice.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 07:38:47 AM
General scepticism over cases settled via confessions where coercion or torture are a possibility. Police are the same the world over- convictions are more important than justice.

What makes you sure in this case there has been a miscarriage of justice ?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 07:42:45 AM
What makes you sure in this case there has been a miscarriage of justice ?

 Try reading the posts again... I for one have always said that there MAY have been a misacarriage of justice. We woulodnt be so stupid as to make a definitive judgement
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 07:45:14 AM
Try reading the posts again... I for one have always said that there MAY have been a misacarriage of justice. We woulodnt be so stupid as to make a definitive judgement

I have read the posts.

I wasn't asking you the question either, or didn't you note that  ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 12, 2013, 09:27:50 AM
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 09:34:03 AM
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.

Well said.

 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.

The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 10:28:55 AM
The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.


It seems some posters believe there is overwhelming evidence against the Ciprianos. This cant be true as one out of two judges thought she was innocent...hardly overwhelming
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 12, 2013, 10:45:52 AM
The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.

The case was not reinstated!
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 10:53:51 AM

It seems some posters believe there is overwhelming evidence against the Ciprianos. This cant be true as one out of two judges thought she was innocent...hardly overwhelming

One out of three Judges, actually, Davel.  But still not good.  And The Media Campaign beforehand was appalling.

Hopefully this case will go down in history as the last such  example of the fascist state that was still lurking.  Probably still is.  But The World has got their eye on them now.  And the old guard are being weeded out.
Thanks to Madeleine.  Poor little soul.  And to Joana of course.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 11:01:39 AM

It is not possible for Amaral to be cleared of the case against Leandro Silva without a Trial.  So far no such Trial has been held, and Amaral is consequently still an Arguido.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benita on November 12, 2013, 11:33:37 AM
It is not possible for Amaral to be cleared of the case against Leandro Silva without a Trial.  So far no such Trial has been held, and Amaral is consequently still an Arguido.


 8@??)(
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 12, 2013, 12:40:55 PM
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.

Such conduct is to be condemned and rightly so but while it creates doubt as to the eventual outcome in the case, readers must be mindful of the bigger picture.  The Court convicted Leanor Cipriano and her brother on the basis of all the facts and knowing full well that coercion of one sort or another had taken place.  None of us are in a position to challenge that decision having not attended the trial or being in possession of trial transcripts.  All we can possibly do is look at the history of the individuals concerned, the facts and the evidence as presented to us from other sources.

Wild claims of innocence or indeed guilt are unhelpful.  We are here to debate the case, nothing more.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 01:32:09 PM
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.


People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: faithlilly on November 12, 2013, 01:39:44 PM

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.

Then due to Cipriano's proved perjury Amaral's conviction must also be seen as a potential miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.

Such conduct is to be condemned and rightly so but while it creates doubt as to the eventual outcome in the case, readers must be mindful of the bigger picture.  The Court convicted Leanor Cipriano and her brother on the basis of all the facts and knowing full well that coercion of one sort or another had taken place.  None of us are in a position to challenge that decision having not attended the trial or being in possession of trial transcripts.  All we can possibly do is look at the history of the individuals concerned, the facts and the evidence as presented to us from other sources.

Wild claims of innocence or indeed guilt are unhelpful.  We are here to debate the case, nothing more.

The Supreme Court presumably recapped the "evidence" presented in the earlier trials.

I'm non the wiser as to what happened to this child.

Certain "facts" were presented as proven... but if you examine subsequent parts of the SC ruling, much of it seems to be based on "common experience".

A child was seen going towards her home. Most children do, indeed, arrive home. Therefore, it is taken as a proven fact that she did.

Would the same logic apply to children kidnapped on their way to / or from a school?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 01:43:55 PM
Then due to Cipriano's proved perjury Amaral's conviction must also be seen as a potential miscarriage of justice.

I asked for a sub-forum on this case to divorce it from the connections with the officers involved.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 12, 2013, 01:44:55 PM

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.

A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 01:46:13 PM

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.
Shouldn't you fly to Portimão to investigate this case through the original documents before identifying it as a "potential miscarriage of justice" ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 01:53:09 PM

Would the same logic apply to children kidnapped on their way to / or from a school?
There are cases of this kind in France, Carana, fortunately very very few. Does it never happen in the UK ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 02:07:05 PM
A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY

I only learned of this case due to googling the Madeleine case. As far as I'm concerned, there are connections, but what actually happened to this child?



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 02:18:34 PM
There are cases of this kind in France, Carana, fortunately very very few. Does it never happen in the UK ?

Every country has cases of abducted / murdered children, some of which are cover-ups by the family/ friends. There are other cases in which family/ friends are suspected and in which the person responsible is eventually found to be someone else.


My question is: what happened to Joana?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 02:20:28 PM
Shouldn't you fly to Portimão to investigate this case through the original documents before identifying it as a "potential miscarriage of justice" ?

I haven't been able to read the original process... just the points recapped by the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 02:20:37 PM
A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY

"It has been stated that no one would give two hoots."  I would give two hoots, and I do. 
It just so happens that The Cipriano Case was drawn to my attention by The McCann Case and Amaral's involvement in that.  At which point one had to wonder about the similarities of Fridges and unidentified blood and the disposal of bodies, neither of which have been found.
And what would have happened to The McCanns if the world media hadn't been crawling all over the place.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 02:32:56 PM
I haven't been able to read the original process... just the points recapped by the Supreme Court.
There is the rub. There's no DVD for this case, so you have to collect copies of the documents at the MP in Portimao.
I don't see how you can progress reasonably in this case another way.
Bypassing this step you're condemned to speculations that, according to what I read on this thread, are curiously all directed towards an abduction of Joana disguised in murder by criminal police officers. I don't think it's fair.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 02:43:49 PM
A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY

There is no proof that she died.

I'm trying to divorce the connections.

My interest in the Joana case is whether she was indeed killed by her mother/ brother. I haven't found any concrete evidence to support that.

In the absence of any proof, she might be still alive and held somewhere, or killed by someone who was not the focus of investigations.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 12, 2013, 02:45:09 PM
"It has been stated that no one would give two hoots."  I would give two hoots, and I do. 
It just so happens that The Cipriano Case was drawn to my attention by The McCann Case and Amaral's involvement in that.  At which point one had to wonder about the similarities of Fridges and unidentified blood and the disposal of bodies, neither of which have been found.
And what would have happened to The McCanns if the world media hadn't been crawling all over the place.

I agree
 and I was an admirer of Amaral, but on doing some research into maddie, I found this thread in the McCann thread on here, so just had to see what had happened to this little girl. I am appalled at the results of my search
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 02:50:27 PM
And what would have happened to The McCanns if the world media hadn't been crawling all over the place.

You just proved why discussion of the two cases should be kept apart. That's xenophobia.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 02:54:10 PM
You just proved why discussion of the two cases should be kept apart. That's xenophobia.
Not only, it betrays also a total lack of confidence in British diplomatic institutions.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 03:07:37 PM
Not only, it betrays also a total lack of confidence in British diplomatic institutions.


Why do you thing The British Ambassadorial Staff were so quick to the scene of Madeleine's disappearance?  I very much doubt they came for an after dinner chat.
They knew all about The Cipriano Case and The Michael Cook Case, and they weren't taking any chances of that happening again.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 03:10:06 PM

Why do you thing The British Ambassadorial Staff were so quick to the scene of Madeleine's disappearance?  I very much doubt they came for an after dinner chat.
They knew all about The Cipriano Case and The Michael Cook Case, and they weren't taking any chances of that happening again.

Is that pure supposition, or do you have proof as to that ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 03:13:04 PM

Why do you thing The British Ambassadorial Staff were so quick to the scene of Madeleine's disappearance?  I very much doubt they came for an after dinner chat.
They knew all about The Cipriano Case and The Michael Cook Case, and they weren't taking any chances of that happening again.

8)-))) This is pure invention. That first day the police allowed the child's mother to have her husband in the room with her when being interviewed. This suggests the exact opposite of what you allege.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 03:13:19 PM
You just proved why discussion of the two cases should be kept apart. That's xenophobia.
Didn't Amaral threaten Robert Murat?  He did, according to Robert Murat.  I would have been just as keen to make sure he wasn't wrongfully convicted.  What is xenophobic about that?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 03:13:24 PM
Is that pure supposition, or do you have proof as to that ?

 If it walks like a duck stephen
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 12, 2013, 03:17:09 PM
The McCann's are on record stating that their family telephoned the Foreign Office out of hours helpline to advise them what had occurred so the British authorities knew from very early on what the state of play was.   Sorry a bit of topic.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 03:18:17 PM
Didn't Amaral threaten Robert Murat?  He did, according to Robert Murat.  I would have been just as keen to make sure he wasn't wrongfully convicted.  What is xenophobic about that?

You seem to think there has been no contact at all between British ex-pats/tourists and Portuguese police since the Michael Cook case (whatever happened there, I don't know).

When obviously there has been a great deal of contact, and no problems. Unless you can suggest otherwise. But trying to link events from many years ago, and ignoring everything else in between is a touch disingenuous.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 03:18:41 PM
The McCann's are on record stating that their family telephoned the Foreign Office out of hours helpline to advise them what had occurred so the British authorities knew from very early on what the state of play was.

So they turned up tout de suite.  Just in case.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 03:19:25 PM
The McCann's are on record stating that their family telephoned the Foreign Office out of hours helpline to advise them what had occurred so the British authorities knew from very early on what the state of play was.

Yes, I think the suggestion that John Buck and/or others rushed to their aid so the PJ wouldnt torture them is bordering on the totally ridiculous



Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 03:20:29 PM
If it walks like a duck stephen

It quacks like a xenophobe? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 03:25:22 PM
It quacks like a xenophobe? >@@(*&)

You got it in one. 8@??)(
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 03:42:56 PM
It quacks like a xenophobe? >@@(*&)

Which will no doubt explain why I live in France in preference to UK.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 03:48:37 PM
Which will no doubt explain why I live in France in preference to UK.

8((()*/ Nice. Great country.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 03:50:33 PM
8((()*/ Nice. Great country.

Thank you.  It is.  And the people are lovely.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Lyall on November 12, 2013, 03:52:06 PM
Thank you.  It is.  And the people are lovely.

And the French police?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 12, 2013, 03:52:22 PM
An apology.

I publicly rebuked and censured Sadie yesterday when I should not have done so.  Publicly that is. Sorry Sadie.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 04:00:57 PM
As a brief reminder, if one be needed, as regards the treatment of Cipriano,

 'both a prison officer and a doctor both say the bruising was not consistent with what they saw on her return'.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 04:12:44 PM
And the French police?

In my limited experience, perfect gentlemen, young and old alike.  And I know no one to say otherwise.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 04:17:01 PM
As a brief reminder, if one be needed, as regards the treatment of Cipriano,

 'both a prison officer and a doctor both say the bruising was not consistent with what they saw on her return'.


It was proved in court Stephen..and why did the pj say she had fallen down the stairs
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 04:27:01 PM


It was proved in court Stephen..and why did the pj say she had fallen down the stairs

Because they were trying to lie their way out of Torture, and explain the bruises.  Although not sure how falling downstairs was going to explain the scars on her knees from kneeling on glass ashtrays.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Because they were trying to lie their way out of Torture, and explain the bruises.  Although not sure how falling downstairs was going to explain the scars on her knees from kneeling on glass ashtrays.

IIRC, the court did not state that it was the PJ who tortured Leonor but they were persons unknown. The strange thing is that the Ministério Público has not to this day initiated any kind of investigation to find out who these "persons unknown" were.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 04:32:19 PM
There is the rub. There's no DVD for this case, so you have to collect copies of the documents at the MP in Portimao.
I don't see how you can progress reasonably in this case another way.
Bypassing this step you're condemned to speculations that, according to what I read on this thread, are curiously all directed towards an abduction of Joana disguised in murder by criminal police officers. I don't think it's fair.

All I can follow is the Supreme Court (which presumably has had access to the court documents). I still haven't found anything that could prove that the child even got home that night.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 12, 2013, 04:34:53 PM
IIRC, the court did not state that it was the PJ who tortured Leonor but they were persons unknown. The strange thing is that the Ministério Público has not to this day initiated any kind of investigation to find out who these "persons unknown" were.

So why did Amaral lie about her falling downstairs?  Or are you saying that he didn't know what happened or who done it?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 04:35:16 PM
IIRC, the court did not state that it was the PJ who tortured Leonor but they were persons unknown. The strange thing is that the Ministério Público has not to this day initiated any kind of investigation to find out who these "persons unknown" were.

 yes they did...and heres another one by prison officers

•The Court of Appeal in Lisbon ordered a retrial in the case of Albino Libânio, who was assaulted by prison officers in Lisbon Prison in 2003. The Court granted a request by Albino Libânio's lawyers for the Portuguese state to be named as a defendant. The decision was made on the grounds that, as his injuries occurred while he was in the care of the prison system, the state should be held liable even if it was impossible to prove which prison officers were responsible for the attack. The original trial had recognized the injuries suffered by Albino Libânio but acquitted all seven prison officers of assault because of lack of evidence proving their responsibility. A new trial date had not been set at the end of the year.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 04:40:24 PM
In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004, but that it could not identify those responsible. Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral and António Fernandes Nuno Cardoso, senior officials in the judicial police, had been sentenced to 18 months’ and 27 months’ imprisonment respectively, for falsely claiming Leonor Cipriano had fallen down the stairs. However, both sentences were suspended on the grounds that the officers had no previous criminal convictions.


Tortured whilst in police custody
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 12, 2013, 04:41:32 PM
There is the rub. There's no DVD for this case, so you have to collect copies of the documents at the MP in Portimao.
I don't see how you can progress reasonably in this case another way.
Bypassing this step you're condemned to speculations that, according to what I read on this thread, are curiously all directed towards an abduction of Joana disguised in murder by criminal police officers. I don't think it's fair.

Can anybody obtain copies of these documents, Anne ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 12, 2013, 04:42:08 PM
yes they did...and heres another one by prison officers

•The Court of Appeal in Lisbon ordered a retrial in the case of Albino Libânio, who was assaulted by prison officers in Lisbon Prison in 2003. The Court granted a request by Albino Libânio's lawyers for the Portuguese state to be named as a defendant. The decision was made on the grounds that, as his injuries occurred while he was in the care of the prison system, the state should be held liable even if it was impossible to prove which prison officers were responsible for the attack. The original trial had recognized the injuries suffered by Albino Libânio but acquitted all seven prison officers of assault because of lack of evidence proving their responsibility. A new trial date had not been set at the end of the year.

So, you are stating the MP has initiated an investigation into finding out who tortured Leonor? Where is this information? I would like to see the link.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Angelo222 on November 12, 2013, 05:11:28 PM
All I can follow is the Supreme Court (which presumably has had access to the court documents). I still haven't found anything that could prove that the child even got home that night.

She got home and took her shoes off.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 05:23:21 PM
She got home and took her shoes off.

According to the summary in the Supreme Court document, the last person to see her was a lady who lived nearby having a ciggie on her balcony who apparently saw her walking in the direction of her home.

I have already posted the extract.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Admin on November 12, 2013, 07:10:54 PM
IIRC, the court did not state that it was the PJ who tortured Leonor but they were persons unknown. The strange thing is that the Ministério Público has not to this day initiated any kind of investigation to find out who these "persons unknown" were.

Can we refer you to this article Montclair.


Translation

The Court of Faro today condemned by false allegations to a year in prison with a suspended sentence the former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral , in the case relating to the alleged aggressions against Leonor Cipriano by PJ inspectors . However , the accused was acquitted of the crime of omission of denunciation (failure to report a crime).

The inspector António Cardoso was also convicted with suspended sentence, two years and three months in prison. The remaining defendants were acquitted because , despite having been proved that Leonor Cipriano was assaulted on the premises of PJ, we could not identify the perpetrators. According to the chairman of the panel of judges , the case is " particularly serious in people who aim to fight crime."

The court also stated that the testimony in court of the girl's mother was contradictory, which did not help to establish the facts . Similarly it was not possible to prove that she fell from the stairs, as claimed by the defence. The prosecutor or the assistants can now turn, respectively, with the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal.

The process is related to the so-called " Joana case ", dating back to September 12, 2004 , the day the girl, aged eight, disappeared from the village of Figueira, Portimão, Algarve.

A reading of the judgement was made ​​this afternoon by Chairman of the judges. The charges of the Prosecutor against five inspectors and former inspectors Judicial emerged following the interrogation by the PJ in Faro in 2004 , when Leonor appeared with lesions on her face and body in Prison Beja, where she was on remand.

Three inspectors were accused of the crime of torture, one was accused of the crime of perjury and failure to report and a fifth was accused of the crime of document forgery. The trial began on 27 October 2008.

Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, and uncle, John Cipriano were sentenced by the Supreme Court to 16 years in prison each, for the crimes of murder and concealment of a body of the child. Four days ago, the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano, Aragão Correia, requested the opening of a new investigation in the "Joana case " and the acquittal of the girl's mother, after John Cipriano confessed in writing that he tried to sell her.


http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/caso-joana-goncalo-amaral-condenado-a-ano-e-meio-de-prisao-com-pena-suspensa-1382307
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 07:29:34 PM
8)-))) This is pure invention. That first day the police allowed the child's mother to have her husband in the room with her when being interviewed. This suggests the exact opposite of what you allege.
This is very revealing of the Portuguese mentality. Tell this to any police in Europe and they will laugh.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 07:31:40 PM
Can anybody obtain copies of these documents, Anne ?
Yes of course.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 07:33:59 PM
despite having been proved that Leonor Cipriano was assaulted on the premises of PJ, we could not identify the perpetrators.

Why ? I guess nobody will suspect the perpetrators were police officers under special protection.
Who had anything to gain with this assault ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 12, 2013, 07:47:22 PM
despite having been proved that Leonor Cipriano was assaulted on the premises of PJ, we could not identify the perpetrators.

Why ? I guess nobody will suspect the perpetrators were police officers under special protection.
Who had anything to gain with this assault ?

Pressure to locate a potential corpse?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 07:48:12 PM
In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004, but that it could not identify those responsible. Leonor Cipriano had yet to receive compensation from the state. Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral and António Fernandes Nuno Cardoso, senior officials in the judicial police, had been sentenced to 18 months’ and 27 months’ imprisonment respectively, for falsely claiming Leonor Cipriano had fallen down the stairs. However, both sentences were suspended on the grounds that the officers had no previous criminal convictions.


Tortured whilst in police custody


-------------------------------
Here's a reply to you davel.
-------------------------------

"In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004"

'Yes March 2012!

But now superseded in March 2013, by the fact that her testimony has been proved to be a complete falsehood.

So why do they not feel the need to come to the aid of officers prosecuted on a lie!

As to the conviction for perjury they know it can't be overturned due to the fact it was based on their statements not being forensically tested. They can not go back in time to do that, therefore despite the unfairness of it, the conviction will always stand. Unless sometime on the future, the Portuguese judiciary changes the way it views evidence. '
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 07:59:49 PM

-------------------------------
Here's a reply to you davel.
-------------------------------

"In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004"

'Yes March 2012!

But now superseded in March 2013, by the fact that her testimony has been proved to be a complete falsehood.

So why do they not feel the need to come to the aid of officers prosecuted on a lie!

As to the conviction for perjury they know it can't be overturned due to the fact it was based on their statements not being forensically tested. They can not go back in time to do that, therefore despite the unfairness of it, the conviction will always stand. Unless sometime on the future, the Portuguese judiciary changes the way it views evidence. '

Do you really believe that because if you do you are showing a complete ignorance of the real facts
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 08:08:19 PM
Pressure to locate a potential corpse?
Do you really think that a police officer would assault a murderer in order to find where she buried the murdered one ? Haven't you read Barra da Costa's opinion in a link you sent saying a part hadn't been translated ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:10:26 PM
You need to answer my question first...but judging by your past performance s you can't answer questions

If CIPRIANO is a liar,, and that's what she is convicted of, her testimony can't be trusted.

So , do you believe a convicted LIAR ?

As to not answering questions davel, you should not be preaching on that one.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:11:10 PM
Do you really think that a police officer would assault a murderer in order to find where she buried the murdered one ? Haven't you read Barra da Costa's opinion in a link you sent saying a part hadn't been translated ?

There are that many references to suspects being beaten it seems it is common place in Portugal
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:13:41 PM

-------------------------------
Here's a reply to you davel.
-------------------------------

"In March, the Court of Appeal of Evora confirmed an earlier ruling that Leonor Cipriano had been tortured while in police custody in 2004"

'Yes March 2012!

But now superseded in March 2013, by the fact that her testimony has been proved to be a complete falsehood.

So why do they not feel the need to come to the aid of officers prosecuted on a lie!

As to the conviction for perjury they know it can't be overturned due to the fact it was based on their statements not being forensically tested. They can not go back in time to do that, therefore despite the unfairness of it, the conviction will always stand. Unless sometime on the future, the Portuguese judiciary changes the way it views evidence. '

You posted that the 2012 judgement had been super ceded..I will ask the same question again.    Do you really believe that...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:15:10 PM
You posted that the 2012 judgement had been super ceded..I will ask the same question again.    Do you really believe that...


What happened in 2013 ?

She was proven to be a LIAR.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:17:45 PM

What happened in 2013 ?

She was proven to be a LIAR.

Are you just pretending you don't understand the question..has the 2012 judgement been overturned
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:23:00 PM
Are you just pretending you don't understand the question..has the 2012 judgement been overturned


No davel.

Read my first post tonight again.

READ IT.

CIPRIANO IS A CONVICTED LIAR.

CLEARLY YOU BELIEVE A LIAR.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:26:28 PM

No davel.

Read my first post tonight again.

READ IT.

CIPRIANO IS A CONVICTED LIAR.

CLEARLY YOU BELIEVE A LIAR.

Is something wrong with you ..all these capitals..you are making a bit of a fool of yourself

OK. The 2012 judgement has been overturned and both amaral and Leonor have convictions for lying
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:28:07 PM
Is something wrong with you ..all these capitals..you are making a bit of a fool of yourself

OK. The 2012 judgement has been overturned and both amaral and Leonor have convictions for lying


So the bottom line remains.

You support CIPRIANO, a convicted liar and murderer.

 >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Admin on November 12, 2013, 08:30:44 PM
So are we saying they all LIED?  ?>)()<
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:31:17 PM

So the bottom line remains.

You support CIPRIANO, a convicted liar and murderer.

 >@@(*&)

No.  You need to concentrate.  The 2012 judgement has not been overturned...that is a fact
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:32:58 PM
So are we saying they all LIED?  ?>)()<

I'm not. I am saying they both have a conviction for lying
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
I'm not. I am saying they both have a conviction for lying

Err, chalk and bleeding cheese though.....a policeman signing off statements and a convicted murderess changing her story umpteen times, purleeese.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:37:39 PM
Err, chalk and bleeding cheese though.....a policeman signing off statements and a convicted murderess changing her story umpteen times, purleeese.....

A policeman covering up torture
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:37:50 PM
No.  You need to concentrate.  The 2012 judgement has not been overturned...that is a fact

Read my original post davel, CAREFULLY.

I SAID SUPERSEDED, NOT REVOKED.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:42:40 PM
Read my original post davel, CAREFULLY.

I SAID SUPERSEDED, NOT REVOKED.

Where has the word revoked come from...it hasn't been superseded either...you are still wrong
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 08:50:52 PM
Where has the word revoked come from...it hasn't been superseded either...you are still wrong

Keep trying.

Overturned is the equivalent of revoked.

Now do you support a CONVICTED MURDER AND LIAR.

A SIMPLE YES OR NO WILL SUFFICE.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 08:52:19 PM
A policeman covering up torture

You dont know that and have no evidence to support that.....he signed off a report about  her getting injuries after attempting to throw herself off the stairs.......thats all we know...he wasnt there...he trusted his officers... If yu know more do tell...everyone would like to know what happened, doesnt help if yu just make stuff up or dont back up any claims, ta
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:53:51 PM
You dont know that and have no evidence to support that.....

It was proved in court
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 08:56:25 PM
It was proved in court

It was proved in court that he covered up torture? Oh my, really? Do link the text....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 12, 2013, 08:58:05 PM
It was proved in court that he covered up torture? Oh my, really? Do link the text....

i dont know how you put up with answering davel best  thing i ever did was  ignore......... they only see what they want too
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:58:40 PM
It was proved in court that he covered up torture? Oh my, really? Do link the text....

What do you think he got his conviction to then...speeding
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 08:59:43 PM
i dont know how you put up with answering davel best  thing i ever did was  ignore......... they only see what they want too

Are you a grown up carly
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 09:09:55 PM
What do you think he got his conviction to then...speeding

it was not for covering up torture.....you stated it, up to you to scurry off now and find the proof.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:10:54 PM
it was not for covering up torture.....you stated it, up to you to scurry off now and find the proof.....

Yes it was
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 09:13:33 PM
Yes it was

i know you said it was, you dont need to repeat it, just show the proof....after all you want facts dont you, and not myths,  show us them.....that the court judged amaral was guilt of covering up torture....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:16:23 PM
i know you said it was, you dont need to repeat it, just show the proof....after all you want facts dont you, and not myths,  show us them.....that the courf judged amaral was guilt of covering up torture....

Its one of the basic facts...have a look back at the July..august posts...you will find it there...if not may or June...take your time
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 09:20:58 PM
Its one of the basic facts...have a look back at the July..august posts...you will find it there...if not may or June...take your time

nope, nowhere.........did you actually read the court  documents? Obviously  not

leave yu to ferret them out..the proper ones....and not some wayside interpretation....

Nite nite now
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
nope, nowhere.........

So what was he convicted for...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 09:28:17 PM
So what was he convicted for...

You made  the allegation up to you to prove it....not pass the buck...bye now
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:31:11 PM
You made  the allegation up to you to prove it....not pass the buck...bye now

Its not a matter of passing the buck...the judgement was in Portuguese...I've given my interpretation.. I've seen the judgement described as perjury...what's your interpretation
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:32:58 PM
What's happened to Stephen..has he gone to fix his keyboard.  I think he was having problems with the caps lock key
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 09:33:24 PM
You dont know that and have no evidence to support that.....he signed off a report about  her getting injuries after attempting to throw herself off the stairs.......thats all we know...he wasnt there...he trusted his officers... If yu know more do tell...everyone would like to know what happened, doesnt help if yu just make stuff up or dont back up any claims, ta
I wonder which proof the MP had that Mrs Cipriano had been assaulted on the PJ premisses.
The only thing that should be absolutely required would be to identify the people who assaulted her there. Who had something to gain with it ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:36:37 PM
I wonder which proof the MP had that Mrs Cipriano had been assaulted on the PJ premisses.
The only thing that should be absolutely required would be to identify the people who assaulted her there. Who had something to gain with it ?

She couldn't identify them because they put a bag on her head
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 09:37:26 PM
What's happened to Stephen..has he gone to fix his keyboard.  I think he was having problems with the caps lock key


No wrong again.

Still waiting for your answer to my last question.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:38:34 PM

No wrong again.

Still waiting for your answer to my last question.

Well done Stephen...looks like you fixed it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 09:40:46 PM
Well done Stephen...looks like you fixed it

There was no problem.

Answer the question.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:42:05 PM
There was no problem.

Answer the question.
Isn't rather rude Stephen to ask me to answer your question when you didn't answer the one I asked first
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
Isn't rather rude Stephen to ask me to answer your question when you didn't answer the one I asked first

Hardly.

There are many questiond you never answer.

So let's try again.

Do you support a convicted MURDERER and LIAR ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
Hardly.

There are many questiond you never answer.

So let's try again.

Do you support a convicted MURDERER and LIAR ?

I asked a question first band as you have been caught out you are trying to avoid answerring it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 12, 2013, 09:49:55 PM
I asked a question first band as you have been caught out you are trying to avoid answerring it

No I answered your question.

It's not my problem you didn't comprehend.

Now answer mine.


Do you support a convicted MURDERER and LIAR ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 10:01:10 PM
No I answered your question.

It's not my problem you didn't comprehend.

Now answer mine.


Do you support a convicted MURDERER and LIAR ?

 you haven't answered the question..the question is...do you really believe that the 2012 judgement re torture has been superseded or does it still stand
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 12, 2013, 10:05:42 PM
im off now Stephen...you once again refuse to answer a question..to be quite honest I don't know why I bother with you
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 12, 2013, 11:33:37 PM
Do you really think that a police officer would assault a murderer in order to find where she buried the murdered one ? Haven't you read Barra da Costa's opinion in a link you sent saying a part hadn't been translated ?
I have been reading Barra da Costa for hours and it is unbelievable what is there . Nothing that I would dare put on here, but if true and I don't say it is, it is very very bad. Anyone can look it up and read it for themselves
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2013, 11:46:37 PM
I wonder which proof the MP had that Mrs Cipriano had been assaulted on the PJ premisses.
The only thing that should be absolutely required would be to identify the people who assaulted her there. Who had something to gain with it ?

Where else are you suggesting she was tortured Anne?  Amaral had sent for the DCCB from Lisbon.  That is the anti terrorist unit.   the Anti -terrorist unit to interogate a woman to try and make her say she had murdered her daughter  FGS !

IIRC they were sent for in the MIchael Cook case too ... and boy was he ever tortured.

And CPS Official Virgilino Borges.  Look at the torture he  endured.  Were the DCCB there too?


Do you condone torture Anne?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 12:26:26 AM
Pressure to locate a potential corpse?

Indeed.    And also the implements ie. saw and knives which it was alleged were used, but were never found.

Why would LC refuse to give that information once she had confessed to murdering her daughter.  What would be the point of doing that?  There is none.  The confession meant it was 'game over' anyway -  so what did she have to gain?    It simply makes no sense to endure such terrible torture at that stage in the proceedings.       

What does make sense IMO is that no matter how much she was tortured  - if there was no murder and Joana had been abducted - then there was no way she could tell them where the body was or what happened to the saw and knife  - because there was no body and there was no saw and knives.   

             
 
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 07:38:32 AM
im off now Stephen...you once again refuse to answer a question..to be quite honest I don't know why I bother with you

The question was answered and you only have to read my my first post last evening to comprehend the meaning.

However, you weak excuses for not answering my question are par for the course as many other posters have noted on your part.

You evade or attempt to distract.

However, last night, things became quite clear.

You believe the words of L.Cipriano, a convicted MURDERER and LIAR.

Enough said.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:45:26 AM
The question was answered and you only have to read my my first post last evening to comprehend the meaning.

However, you weak excuses for not answering my question are par for the course as many other posters have noted on your part.

You evade or attempt to distract.

However, last night, things became quite clear.

You believe the words of L.Cipriano, a convicted MURDERER and LIAR.

Enough said.

I couldn't be bothered with you last night Stephen as once again you refused to answer the question I asked but wanted your question answered.. this morning I willla nnswer both of them.

You wright LIAR in capital letters...have you never told a lie... I have and so has everyone else..so we all lie so its abit childish to be so pedantic.

secondly...do I support a convicted murderer...you mean like Barry geeorge. If shes guilty then she deserves to rot in hell...but if she is innocent I support her.


 a regards the 2012 judgement it was never superseded as you claim..you were and are wrong. It is still accepted by the courts that Leonor WAS tortured whilst in police custody.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 08:02:42 AM
I couldn't be bothered with you last night Stephen as once again you refused to answer the question I asked but wanted your question answered.. this morning I willla nnswer both of them.

You wright LIAR in capital letters...have you never told a lie... I have and so has everyone else..so we all lie so its abit childish to be so pedantic.

secondly...do I support a convicted murderer...you mean like Barry geeorge. If shes guilty then she deserves to rot in hell...but if she is innocent I support her.


 a regards the 2012 judgement it was never superseded as you claim..you were and are wrong. It is still accepted by the courts that Leonor WAS tortured whilst in police custody.

As Cipriano's testimony was used in prosecuting members of the PJ . their conviction must remain in doubt, but time will tell on that. She is a repeated liar and murderer, and nothing you can say will get away from that.

Now remind me of what happened to George's conviction.

What physical proof has been offered Cipriano was tortured by members of the PJ ?

If it was conjecture, a conviction should never have been given.

Would you trust a repeated liar such as Cipriano ?


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 09:12:29 AM
Indeed.    And also the implements ie. saw and knives which it was alleged were used, but were never found.

Why would LC refuse to give that information once she had confessed to murdering her daughter.  What would be the point of doing that?  There is none.  The confession meant it was 'game over' anyway -  so what did she have to gain?    It simply makes no sense to endure such terrible torture at that stage in the proceedings.       

What does make sense IMO is that no matter how much she was tortured  - if there was no murder and Joana had been abducted - then there was no way she could tell them where the body was or what happened to the saw and knife  - because there was no body and there was no saw and knives.   

             

The child was dismembered/quartered with an ax, according to João Cipriano.

If she was abducted why did he describe the way he dismembered her and assembled the pieces in plastic bags in order to put them in a deep freezer?

The most revealing was his answer when asked about the sperm that was found in a child's underpanties in the house, he responded: «I didn't hurt her, I just killed her».
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 09:25:19 AM
What I find surprising is that the same people that insist on considering the rightfulness of the Trial that convicted Amaral are not happy about the Trial that convicted the evil Leonor and her brother.

Even after she was convicted for having lied about being tortured, those same people continue to insist that the only people that were convicted, not for torture, but for not reporting a torture that never occurred, are still guilty.

It's amazing how people are absolutely convinced that a murderer that was used by an opportunistic lawyer, like Aragão, that now chose to go to Brazil to develop his spiritist tendencies, and a President of the Bar that was mad at the PJ and the Magistrates for having allowed that his beloved Socialist Party had been stained with several cases, from paedophilia to high international corruption when in Government, is more truthful than the witnesses that finally could be heard to prove that she was a liar.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Eleanor on November 13, 2013, 09:28:05 AM
The child was dismembered/quartered with an ax, according to João Cipriano.

If she was abducted why did he describe the way he dismembered her and assembled the pieces in plastic bags in order to put them in a deep freezer?

The most revealing was his answer when asked about the sperm that was found in a child's underpanties in the house, he responded: «I didn't hurt her, I just killed her».

It wasn't Joao's sperm, and there was an explanation which was accepted.  You forgot to mention that.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2013, 09:35:22 AM
As Cipriano's testimony was used in prosecuting members of the PJ . their conviction must remain in doubt, but time will tell on that. She is a repeated liar and murderer, and nothing you can say will get away from that.

Now remind me of what happened to George's conviction.

What physical proof has been offered Cipriano was tortured by members of the PJ ?

If it was conjecture, a conviction should never have been given.

Would you trust a repeated liar such as Cipriano ?
I would trust Leonor Cipriano anytime over Amaral tbh.

However, having broken to torture, she is their puppet now .... unless she is extra-ordinarily strong


As for physical proof?  What do you expect more than  the copious proof given with witness statements and photographs?  Do you expect the bruises to still be there?  @)(++(* 8(>((

The witnesses included the very brave Dr Anna C****   prison Governor.


Why are you so keen to always promote Amaral, Stephen?  He is a Court proven liar.  He called the Rottweilers in., even IF he didn't take part in the torture itself


How about the rights of a simple PT couple Leonor Cipriano and her brother Joao?   Are you unable to see the flaws in this case?  Can you NOT see the injustices of running a case where extreme torture was used?


where are your basic human instincts?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 09:38:04 AM
I would trust Leonor Cipriano anytime over Amaral tbh.

However, having broken to torture, she is their puppet now .... unless she is extra-ordinarily strong


As for physical proof?  What do you expect more than  the copious proof given with witness statements and photographs?  Do you expect the bruises to still be there?  @)(++(* 8(>((

The witnesses included the very brave Dr Anna C****   prison Governor.


Why are you so keen to always promote Amaral, Stephen?  He is a Court proven liar.  He called the Rottweilers in., even if he didn't take part in the torture itself


How about the rights of a simple PT couple Leonor Cipriano and her brother Joao?   Are you unable to see the flaws in this case?  Can you NOT see the injustices of running a case where extreme torture was used?


where are your basic human instincts?

Here we go again.

For you.

All things mccann must be praised.

Amaral must be destroyed.

It's your same old story again sadie.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 09:40:21 AM
It wasn't Joao's sperm, and there was an explanation which was accepted.  You forgot to mention that.


My point was his answer: «I DIDN'T HURT HER, I JUST KILLED HER»
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 09:48:23 AM
Hey, hey,.....hold on....

The only physical evidence accepted in the first trial over the alleged torture were the Photos published by Marinho Pinto in the Expresso Newspaper. It's commonly accepted that they were photo-shopped, now.

The fact that the only doctor that saw and treated Leonor for her bruises was not accepted in Trial tells all. The doctor certified that she exhibited bruises from assaults at various times and none was compatible with the time she told the court she had been attacked inside the PJ.

Why did the court refuse to hear Leonor's inmate that was going to testify that she had been assaulted inside the prison?!

Funnily enough, that same Prison Director, that allowed one inmate to be spanked inside her prison, was awarded a Medal by Marinho Pinto  that same year.


And further more, that same Prison Director instructed (allegedly) the chief of the prison guards to alter the registration of the movements of Leonor, because the ones they had didn't fit the allegations of torture in the PJ.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 09:56:33 AM
I would trust Leonor Cipriano anytime over Amaral tbh.

However, having broken to torture, she is their puppet now .... unless she is extra-ordinarily strong


As for physical proof?  What do you expect more than  the copious proof given with witness statements and photographs?  Do you expect the bruises to still be there?  @)(++(* 8(>((

The witnesses included the very brave Dr Anna C****   prison Governor.


Why are you so keen to always promote Amaral, Stephen?  He is a Court proven liar.  He called the Rottweilers in., even IF he didn't take part in the torture itself


How about the rights of a simple PT couple Leonor Cipriano and her brother Joao?   Are you unable to see the flaws in this case?  Can you NOT see the injustices of running a case where extreme torture was used?


where are your basic human instincts?

Also sadie, who were the witnesses to the so called 'torture' ?

L. Cipriano ?

Who is of course a liar.

My sympathy is for Joana, and the awful fate which befell her.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
I would trust Leonor Cipriano anytime over Amaral tbh.

However, having broken to torture, she is their puppet now .... unless she is extra-ordinarily strong


As for physical proof?  What do you expect more than  the copious proof given with witness statements and photographs?  Do you expect the bruises to still be there?  @)(++(* 8(>((

The witnesses included the very brave Dr Anna C****   prison Governor.


Why are you so keen to always promote Amaral, Stephen?  He is a Court proven liar.  He called the Rottweilers in., even IF he didn't take part in the torture itself


How about the rights of a simple PT couple Leonor Cipriano and her brother Joao?   Are you unable to see the flaws in this case?  Can you NOT see the injustices of running a case where extreme torture was used?


where are your basic human instincts?


This tells all about where your sympathies fall. You'll rather defend a murderer than a young innocent 8 year old that was made a slave and, lastly, was brutally killed.

I know personally Dra. Ana Calado, and for a question of professional courtesy I have not made comments about her - but I know what she did.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 10:16:03 AM
The child was dismembered/quartered with an ax, according to João Cipriano.

If she was abducted why did he describe the way he dismembered her and assembled the pieces in plastic bags in order to put them in a deep freezer?

The most revealing was his answer when asked about the sperm that was found in a child's underpanties in the house, he responded: «I didn't hurt her, I just killed her».

Once torture had been established, nothing said or claimed or confessed by LC and her brother can be regarded as credible or believable evidence.    They could have been simply agreeing with what was being suggested to them by the PJ to avoid further torture.    So to keep quoting what they said is a waste of time imo.   

Torture rendered the guilty verdict to be unsafe - and at the very least there should have been a re-trial.   It really is as simple as that IMO.    I do not understand how anyone can disagree with that.






Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2013, 10:17:45 AM
I would trust Leonor Cipriano anytime over Amaral tbh.

However, having broken to torture, she is their puppet now .... unless she is extra-ordinarily strong


As for physical proof?  What do you expect more than  the copious proof given with witness statements and photographs?  Do you expect the bruises to still be there?  @)(++(* 8(>((

The witnesses included the very brave Dr Anna C****   prison Governor.


Why are you so keen to always promote Amaral, Stephen?  He is a Court proven liar.  He called the Rottweilers in., even IF he didn't take part in the torture itself


How about the rights of a simple PT couple Leonor Cipriano and her brother Joao?   Are you unable to see the flaws in this case?  Can you NOT see the injustices of running a case where extreme torture was used?


where are your basic human instincts?

I believe Leonor is innocent, She had no criminal record, was said to have never smacked her children and was condemned, simply because, she was of low intelligence, confused and afraid.
 I have read a lot but cannot find the link that I had of importance, but this is interesting  (which you have probably all read)   http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 10:24:12 AM
As Cipriano's testimony was used in prosecuting members of the PJ . their conviction must remain in doubt, but time will tell on that. She is a repeated liar and murderer, and nothing you can say will get away from that.

Now remind me of what happened to George's conviction.

What physical proof has been offered Cipriano was tortured by members of the PJ ?

If it was conjecture, a conviction should never have been given.

Would you trust a repeated liar such as Cipriano ?

so you are doing your usual backpeddaling...now the conviction hasn't been superseded as you said last night but must be in doubt. well the court doesn't agree with you but you are free to question the conviction. the fact is though that the court HASNT changed their minds about torture..it still accepts it took place. Physical evidence ...bruising
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 10:31:37 AM
so you are doing your usual backpeddaling...now the conviction hasn't been superseded as you said last night but must be in doubt. well the court doesn't agree with you but you are free to question the conviction. the fact is though that the court HASNT changed their minds about torture..it still accepts it took place. Physical evidence ...bruising

In what way is bruising proof of torture ?

Pray tell.

The woman is a convicted liar and murderer.

That factor is unchanged.

You are quite happy for members of the PJ to have a conviction over their heads, but not Cipriano.

Why is that ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 10:42:11 AM

This tells all about where your sympathies fall. You'll rather defend a murderer than a young innocent 8 year old that was made a slave and, lastly, was brutally killed.

I know personally Dra. Ana Calado, and for a question of professional courtesy I have not made comments about her - but I know what she did.

Why not comment?     Is that because if the PJ was telling the truth then the Prison Director and her medical expert were guilty of committing perjury and as a result of their lies innocent people ended up with suspended prison sentences and criminal records?      Surely if that was true that would make her a massive criminal - why would you owe 'professional courtesy' to such a dishonest person.

Whichever way you look at it either one party is a liar and a disgrace to her profession or the other one is a liar and a disgrace to his profession.     The courts decided it was not Dr. Ana Calado - no doubt because she provided indisputable proof of the veracity of her claims - backed up with credible evidence.     

Has Amaral or anyone else threatened to sue her for libel which ultimately resulted in their false convictions?  If not why not?  What about his 'honour'.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 11:08:04 AM

 I have read a lot but cannot find the link that I had of importance, but this is interesting  (which you have probably all read)   http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html
The little girls who came from the stars and went back there. Kind of E.T. or child Jesus...
The key to Leonor's innocence is with the medium and lawyer Aragao Correia. Who paid him? And what for ? Certainly not for drawing Mrs Cipriano out of jail as she's still there. Then what for ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 11:10:39 AM
In what way is bruising proof of torture ?

Pray tell.

The woman is a convicted liar and murderer.

That factor is unchanged.

You are quite happy for members of the PJ to have a conviction over their heads, but not Cipriano.

Why is that ?

She may be a convicted liar and murderer but I believe that conviction may be unsafe...I don't feel the same about Amaral.all   opinions..and that's all they are ....based on my interpretation of the available evidence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:42 AM
She may be a convicted liar and murderer but I believe that conviction may be unsafe...I don't feel the same about Amaral.all   opinions..and that's all they are ....based on my interpretation of the available evidence

Therein lies the nutshell.

Interpretation, and that applies for all of us.

The following comment is for you davel, from another poster...........

'He knows full well when it was suggested that the judgement made in march 2013, superseded events of 2012 that it was about the principle, that a conviction based on something that subsequently turns out to be false, is unsafe.'


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2013, 11:36:51 AM
Here we go again.

For you.

All things mccann must be praised.

Amaral must be destroyed.

It's your same old story again sadie.

Ooops you are needing your glasses Stephen.

point out where I mentioned the Mccanns in my post if you please
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 13, 2013, 11:44:28 AM

This tells all about where your sympathies fall. You'll rather defend a murderer than a young innocent 8 year old that was made a slave and, lastly, was brutally killed.

I know personally Dra. Ana Calado, and for a question of professional courtesy I have not made comments about her - but I know what she did.

I so agree, it is refreshing to meet you and Stephen....

This is only about Amaral...nothing more ... nothing less.

IF Amaral was not involved in this investigation we would not even be discussing it, the fact is the child was killed in 2004, 3 years before the McCann child went missing.

I thought this was interesting...

    
Leonor's lawyer received money from the McCanns 24horas 30 October 2008
     
Aragão Correia confirms that he was supported with money from Maddie's parents
 
by Luís Maneta
30 October 2008
Translated.
 
The lawyer says that he defends Joana's mother for free and that the McCanns paid him to "investigate" Gonçalo Amaral
 
"Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral in charge"; "Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral present?"; "Did Dr Gonçalo Amaral hit you?". Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral – this seems to be the obsession of Leonor Cipriano's defence lawyer during the trial that opposes Joana's mother to five Judiciária inspectors.
 


Three policemen stand accused of torture: Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom. But Leonor's lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia, has pointed his guns at Gonçalo Amaral, who in this process stands accused of false testimony and omission of denunciation.
 
"This doesn't look like a trial in the Joana case but rather one in the Maddie case", says a source that is connected to the defence of the former coordinator of the PJ in Portimão, who headed the investigations into the disappearance of both children and became a sort of "public enemy #1" for the McCann couple.
 
"A possible condemnation of Gonçalo Amaral in this process may make it easier for the English to prosecute the Portuguese state", the source says.
 
...........................................................

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 11:44:52 AM
Ooops you are needing your glasses Stephen.

point out where I mentioned the Mccanns in my post if you please


Glasses may be bought, a conscience may not.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 11:50:33 AM
I believe Leonor is innocent, She had no criminal record, was said to have never smacked her children and was condemned, simply because, she was of low intelligence, confused and afraid.
 I have read a lot but cannot find the link that I had of importance, but this is interesting  (which you have probably all read)   http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html


leonor was not convicted for crimes, her brother was. But Leonor was registered as a serial child neglector.

But as you read that book you will probably believe that poor murderer Leonor, neglector of all her children, abuser of Joana, is a pure soul....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 11:51:02 AM
Ooops you are needing your glasses Stephen.

point out where I mentioned the Mccanns in my post if you please

You don't have to mention the Mccanns.

Your agenda in this case is very clear.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 11:53:17 AM
I so agree, it is refreshing to meet you and Stephen....

This is only about Amaral...nothing more ... nothing less.

IF Amaral was not involved in this investigation we would not even be discussing it, the fact is the child was killed in 2004, 3 years before the McCann child went missing.

I thought this was interesting...

    
Leonor's lawyer received money from the McCanns 24horas 30 October 2008
     
Aragão Correia confirms that he was supported with money from Maddie's parents
 
by Luís Maneta
30 October 2008
Translated.
 
The lawyer says that he defends Joana's mother for free and that the McCanns paid him to "investigate" Gonçalo Amaral
 
"Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral in charge"; "Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral present?"; "Did Dr Gonçalo Amaral hit you?". Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral – this seems to be the obsession of Leonor Cipriano's defence lawyer during the trial that opposes Joana's mother to five Judiciária inspectors.
 


Three policemen stand accused of torture: Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom. But Leonor's lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia, has pointed his guns at Gonçalo Amaral, who in this process stands accused of false testimony and omission of denunciation.
 
"This doesn't look like a trial in the Joana case but rather one in the Maddie case", says a source that is connected to the defence of the former coordinator of the PJ in Portimão, who headed the investigations into the disappearance of both children and became a sort of "public enemy #1" for the McCann couple.
 
"A possible condemnation of Gonçalo Amaral in this process may make it easier for the English to prosecute the Portuguese state", the source says.
 
...........................................................


Worth reaffirming: the target was Amaral.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2013, 11:54:53 AM
She may be a convicted liar and murderer but I believe that conviction may be unsafe...I don't feel the same about Amaral.all   opinions..and that's all they are ....based on my interpretation of the available evidence
The convictions are unsafe Davel.

The so called evidence was TORTURED OUT of them.



Pause a moment and think.

Why was it necessary for Amaral to call in  the DCCB, the anti terrorist group who seem to have been involved in torture before. 

If he had a case against Leonor and Joao he didn't need the torture.  He wsa home and dry without it.



But he didn't have any relevant true facts, just his minds wanderings .... so did he need to beef it up?  It sure looks like it to me.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 11:55:50 AM
...and at the end of the process, the question was not to get a conviction for the alleged torturers, Mr. Psychic Aragão just dismissed it saying: we did it, we got Amaral.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 11:59:30 AM
The convictions are unsafe Davel.

The so called evidence was TORTURED OUT of them.



Pause a moment and think.

Why was it necessary for Amaral to call in  the DCCB, the anti terrorist group who seem to have been involved in torture before. 

If he had a case against Leonor and Joao he didn't need the torture.  He wsa home and dry without it.



But he didn't have any relevant true facts, just his minds wanderings .... so did he need to beef it up?  It sure looks like it to me.


I understand your ignorance over how the PJ works. It was not Amaral that requested anyone, all the orders were given by the National Director of the PJ.

You people have not understood yet that the PJ is a criminal investigation police that operates under strict orders by the Public Ministry - their latitude in terms of official decision is zero.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 12:00:55 PM
I so agree, it is refreshing to meet you and Stephen....

This is only about Amaral...nothing more ... nothing less.

IF Amaral was not involved in this investigation we would not even be discussing it, the fact is the child was killed in 2004, 3 years before the McCann child went missing.

I thought this was interesting...

    
Leonor's lawyer received money from the McCanns 24horas 30 October 2008
     
Aragão Correia confirms that he was supported with money from Maddie's parents
 
by Luís Maneta
30 October 2008
Translated.
 
The lawyer says that he defends Joana's mother for free and that the McCanns paid him to "investigate" Gonçalo Amaral
 
"Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral in charge"; "Was Dr Gonçalo Amaral present?"; "Did Dr Gonçalo Amaral hit you?". Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral – this seems to be the obsession of Leonor Cipriano's defence lawyer during the trial that opposes Joana's mother to five Judiciária inspectors.
 


Three policemen stand accused of torture: Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom. But Leonor's lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia, has pointed his guns at Gonçalo Amaral, who in this process stands accused of false testimony and omission of denunciation.
 
"This doesn't look like a trial in the Joana case but rather one in the Maddie case", says a source that is connected to the defence of the former coordinator of the PJ in Portimão, who headed the investigations into the disappearance of both children and became a sort of "public enemy #1" for the McCann couple.
 
"A possible condemnation of Gonçalo Amaral in this process may make it easier for the English to prosecute the Portuguese state", the source says.
 
...........................................................


Thanks colombosstogey.

You have got it in one.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 12:07:42 PM
Your mind has been so poisoned by the McCann PR controlled Media against one single person that you lost the whole picture. Gonçalo Amaral was set aside from the case in early October 2007, why do you keep focusing on him?

Because he wrote a book that reflects the PJ FILES? Well, those files are available to anyone that wishes to read them.

Many others wrote books, namely the disgraced mother that was more worried to talk about her and her husband than about her child, so why can't the police that investigated the case write as well?!

Note: "disgraced" is the adjective preferred by the Media, and as an ignorant portuguese non sardine-muncher, I replicate it here.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
Calling here the case of Joana Cipriano is not only reproachable, because it doesn't respect the poor child's ill fate but more so because it is done with a specific aim of using her to defame a certain man, which, if you forgot, is also a parent of a small child.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 12:13:28 PM

Leonor's lawyer received money from the McCanns 24horas 30 October 2008
     
Aragão Correia confirms that he was supported with money from Maddie's parents
 
by Luís Maneta
30 October 2008
Translated.
 
The McCanns would never do that, they always act by proxy. But Metodo 3 might have.
According to a statement by Mr Mitchell himself, end of November 2007, the monthly expenses paid by Madeleine's Fund to Metodo 3 (fees paid by Mr Kennedy) are about 50 thousands pounds.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 12:20:14 PM
Therein lies the nutshell.

Interpretation, and that applies for all of us.

The following comment is for you davel, from another poster...........

'He knows full well when it was suggested that the judgement made in march 2013, superseded events of 2012 that it was about the principle, that a conviction based on something that subsequently turns out to be false, is unsafe.'

 as I said the judgement in 2013 still accepted that Leonor had been tortured...it doesn't really matter if you don't understand..  what it does though is makes all your judgements valueless because they are based on untruths..Luz actually claimed once that there was a court judgement overturning the case..load of rubbish
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2013, 12:20:27 PM
You don't have to mention the Mccanns.

Your agenda in this case is very clear.
What you dont know about me is that I have a very special spot in my heart forv Joana ... and also for Justice.

I want Joana back

I want her mother released from jail ... and Joao cos this case is not safe.  Torture was used stephen.  The so called info extracted under extreme pain and fear was used in a case that should never have happened.



Now why are Joano and leonor, Leandro and Joao so special to me?

We loved PT and the PT people.  Every year we used to holiday in Alvor and I found this wonderful wild nature reserve that we visited most days.  It was adjoining Figueira where the Ciprianos lived.


One day we arrived to find the place literally swarming with local folk; a whole village it seemed.  A lovely old fashioned scene.  Mothers, fathers and little children all picking berries, for jam, wine?   They were obviously from the local village ... and it was a joy to see the little ones running around chasing butterflies and generally having a wonderful day.

I believe that the whole Cipriano family were there.  I cant be sure but it seemed all the ordinary folk of the village we present.   Lovely simple country folk, going about their lives trying to make the best of it.


That moving scene lives with me and I shall never forget it.


Having learned so much about Amaral and his devious ways, his lying and his bringing in the DCCB, of course I am going to go for him.  It seems quite obvious that Amaral condones torture and disinformation.

As you have said, if it had not been for the Madeleine case, I would never have connected the case to the Joana case to begin with.



But that is completely irrelevant to my using info that I now have at my disposal.  And using that to base my analyses on.  Any objections Stephen?


Do you condone torture Stephen?    A simple question.  An answer please.


But now I believe I know what went on, If necessary I will shout it from the rooftops

Having seen the nonsense of the original case and its unjustices, of course I am going to go for him
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 12:22:56 PM
as I said the judgement in 2013 still accepted that Leonor had been tortured...it doesn't really matter if you don't understand..  what it does though is makes all your judgements valueless because they are based on untruths..Luz actually claimed once that there was a court judgement overturning the case..load of rubbish

It is you davel who doesn't comprehend.

You're so wrapped up in the Mccanns, you cannot see sense anymore.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 13, 2013, 12:26:05 PM
It is you davel who doesn't comprehend.

You're so wrapped up in the Mccanns, you cannot see sense anymore.

a few are  far  too emotionally involved imo their extremeness  makes them look  really   removed from reality
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 12:29:31 PM
Your mind has been so poisoned by the McCann PR controlled Media against one single person that you lost the whole picture. Gonçalo Amaral was set aside from the case in early October 2007, why do you keep focusing on him?

Because he wrote a book that reflects the PJ FILES? Well, those files are available to anyone that wishes to read them.

Many others wrote books, namely the disgraced mother that was more worried to talk about her and her husband than about her child, so why can't the police that investigated the case write as well?!

Note: "disgraced" is the adjective preferred by the Media, and as an ignorant portuguese non sardine-muncher, I replicate it here.

Your claim the McCanns control the media is ludicrous imo.     They were persecuted and smeared by the media in both countries if you remember.   If the McCanns had any control over the media they would be last people to want to see any changes made to that powerful position and would be vehemently opposed to the Leveson recommendations.   The fact that they have taken the opposite stance should tell you something.

Either the translated version I have read of Amarals book is a catalogue of mistranslations or it is not true that his book faithfully reflects the PJ files.    It does not - which is why he is being sued for libel.


Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
What you dont know about me is that I have a very special spot in my heart forv Joana ... and also for Justice.

I want Joana back

I want her mother released from jail ... and Joao cos this case is not safe.  Torture was used stephen.  The so called info extracted under extreme pain and fear was used in a case that should never have happened.



Now why are Joano and leonor, Leandro and Joao so special to me?

We loved PT and the PT people.  Every year we used to holiday in Alvor and I found this wonderful wild nature reserve that we visited most days.  It was adjoining Figueira where the Ciprianos lived.


One day we arrived to find the place literally swarming with local folk; a whole village it seemed.  A lovely old fashioned scene.  Mothers, fathers and little children all picking berries, for jam, wine?   They were obviously from the local village ... and it was a joy to see the little ones running around chasing butterflies and generally having a wonderful day.

I believe that the whole Cipriano family were there.  I cant be sure but it seemed all the ordinary folk of the village we present.   Lovely simple country folk, going about their lives trying to make the best of it.


That moving scene lives with me and I shall never forget it.


Having learned so much about Amaral and his devious ways, his lying and his bringing in the DCCB, of course I am going to go for him.  It seems quite obvious that Amaral condones torture and disinformation.

As you have said, if it had not been for the Madeleine case, I would never have connected the case to the Joana case to begin with.



But that is completely irrelevant to my using info that I now have at my disposal.  And using that to base my analyses on.  Any objections Stephen?


Do you condone torture Stephen?    A simple question.  An answer please.


But now I believe I know what went on, If necessary I will shout it from the rooftops

Having seen the nonsense of the original case and its unjustices, of course I am going to go for him

The torture question you have asked me before.

Look up the answer.

As for the rest............................................ >@@(*&)

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 13, 2013, 12:36:24 PM
The torture question you have asked me before.

Look up the answer.

As for the rest............................................ >@@(*&)


that whole story  sounded twee to me   and farfetched like fantasy...... sadie also claims  clarrie is her cousin....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 12:44:06 PM

that whole story  sounded twee to me   and farfetched like fantasy...... sadie also claims  clarrie is her cousin....

'sadie also claims  clarrie is her cousin....'

Are you kidding me ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 13, 2013, 12:45:23 PM
'sadie also claims  clarrie is her cousin....'

Are you kidding me ? 8)-)))

nope she wrote about it yesterday or the day before???    look up her posts lol
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 13, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
sorry elenanor/sabot is related to clarrie    so many fantasy stories on here i cant keep up ?{)(**
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 01:03:41 PM
as I said the judgement in 2013 still accepted that Leonor had been tortured...it doesn't really matter if you don't understand..  what it does though is makes all your judgements valueless because they are based on untruths..Luz actually claimed once that there was a court judgement overturning the case..load of rubbish

She was not tortured, she was beaten.

Her inmates beat the hell out of her - can you imagine a few dozens of women separated from their children for years, the only persons they love in their lives, being close to a woman that killed her own little child?!!! She was brutally beaten inside the prison, and the Prison Director was a negligent that was awarded a prize by Marinho Pinto, for making a fake statement in Court.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: carlymichelle on November 13, 2013, 01:06:30 PM
She was not tortured, she was beaten.

Her inmates beat the hell out of her - can you imagine a few dozens of women separated from their children for years, the only persons they love in their lives, being close to a woman that killed her own little child?!!! She was brutally beaten inside the prison, and the Prison Director was a negligent that was awarded a prize by Marinho Pinto, for making a fake statement in Court.

its a universal jail oath that inmates   hate  child killers even if they hurt  a child themselves  theres  zero tolerence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 01:07:23 PM
She was not tortured, she was beaten.

Her inmates beat the hell out of her - can you imagine a few dozens of women separated from their children for years, the only persons they love in their lives, being close to a woman that killed her own little child?!!! She was brutally beaten inside the prison, and the Prison Director was a negligent that was awarded a prize by Marinho Pinto, for making a fake statement in Court.
Wasn't she beaten inside of the police premisses then ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2013, 01:13:33 PM
Your claim the McCanns control the media is ludicrous imo.     They were persecuted and smeared by the media in both countries if you remember.   If the McCanns had any control over the media they would be last people to want to see any changes made to that powerful position and would be vehemently opposed to the Leveson recommendations.   The fact that they have taken the opposite stance should tell you something.

Either the translated version I have read of Amarals book is a catalogue of mistranslations or it is not true that his book faithfully reflects the PJ files.    It does not - which is why he is being sued for libel.

It seems to me that on this forum you can either...........................
1.Hate the McCanns and adore Amaral or
2.Adore the McCanns and Hate Amaral
 What have the McCanns got to do with the Joana caso (Leonor Cipriano' appeal) which this thread is about?  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 01:14:59 PM
Wasn't she beaten inside of the police premisses then ?

Of course she wasn't. She had been there only with her lawyer when she confessed to the murder. All that happened there was a faked attempted suicide by jumping down the stairs - that if you know it, (I mean the stairs) makes a suicide impossible.

The day she made the confession - I think it was the 13th October - was the last day she was there, and that is why, later on, the chief of the prison guards appeared alleging the Director had asked him to falsify the registry of the inmates movements to the exterior.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:16:25 PM
It seems to me that on this forum you can either...........................
1.Hate the McCanns and adore Amaral or
2.Adore the McCanns and Hate Amaral
 What have the McCanns got to do with the Joana caso (Leonor Cipriano' appeal) which this thread is about?  >@@(*&)

 It is a matter of  either believing the McCanns or believing Amaral...no hate involved...
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:17:47 PM
Of course she wasn't. She had been there only with her lawyer when she confessed to the murder. All that happened there was a faked attempted suicide by jumping down the stairs - that if you know it, (I mean the stairs) makes a suicide impossible.

The day she made the confession - I think it was the 13th October - was the last day she was there, and that is why, later on, the chief of the prison guards appeared alleging the Director had asked him to falsify the registry of the inmates movements to the exterior.

 what this shows is that Luz has no credibility...the throwing down stairs story from the pj has been completely discredited
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:20:46 PM
 From the amnesty international website

•On 22 May the Criminal Court of Faro issued its sentence in the case of the torture of Leonor Cipriano. The court recognized that she had been tortured in police custody in 2004, but acquitted all three police officers, claiming that it was impossible to identify exactly who had been responsible. A fourth officer was convicted of giving false testimony and another was convicted of falsifying documents. Leonor Cipriano’s appeal was pending at the end of the year

Perhaps you all want to claim Amnesty International is telling LIES
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 01:27:03 PM
She was not tortured, she was beaten.

Her inmates beat the hell out of her - can you imagine a few dozens of women separated from their children for years, the only persons they love in their lives, being close to a woman that killed her own little child?!!! She was brutally beaten inside the prison, and the Prison Director was a negligent that was awarded a prize by Marinho Pinto, for making a fake statement in Court.

So why hasn't Amaral protested about this?  This woman has apparently ruined his 'honour' and because of her lies he now has a criminal record?  And yet not a peep from him.   

There was no need for the Prison director to make fake statements.   She had all the proof, medical evidence and witnesses she needed to prove that LC was not beaten by inmates in her prison whilst under her jurisdiction.

Once again I notice that anyone who  does not go along with Amaral's and the PJ's  version of events has to be smeared.      This time it's the Portuguese Prison Director.       Shame on you Luz, you should be proud of her - for refusing to be part of covering up the torture of a defenceless woman.   

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 01:37:58 PM
Mrs the Prison Director had taken a LLX week-end, and she wasn't in the prison when Leonor was attacked.
She was in a "mess":
1. First she had been away more time than she could have by law;
2. She had not taken care to put Leonor in a protected place where her inmates couldn't harm her
3. After arriving, and noticing that Leonor had been beaten she didn't act immediately, she only sent her to a doctor days after viewing the bruises and black spots
4.Under advise, she excluded the medical reports and surrendered a complain for torture over Leonor when questioned in Faro PJ;
5. Because when Leonor had been in the PJ she had been accompanied by her lawyer, the Director had to create another unscheduled visit (ordered the prison chief to alter the registry) and alleged that Leonor had been taken again to Faro for questioning (after she had given a confession)
6. She had a doctor that examined Leonor stating that she had bruises with different timings, so the supposed visit to Faro PJ didn't justify it
7. With the help of Marinho Pinto, Mrs. Director had an incredible article in a major portuguese newspaper, with photoshoped photos and the accusation that the PJ were monster torturers.
8.The flamboyant Aragão, more accustomed to use his family's money than to get a life for himself, found an opportunity to make his name go into the newspapers.

Etc, etc,....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2013, 01:38:38 PM
It is a matter of  either believing the McCanns or believing Amaral...no hate involved...

I believe what they both say, to a point and after that point I do not believe what either of them has said.....Too many lies and changes in evidence being thrown about too.
Lies and changes in her evidence, apparently condemned Leonor! and I do believe she is innocent, If not, then why the appeals?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 01:41:50 PM
I believe what they both say, to a point and after that point I do not believe what either of them has said.....Too many lies and changes in evidence being thrown about too.
Lies and changes in her evidence, apparently condemned Leonor! and I do believe she is innocent, If not, then why the appeals?


This is a thread about Leonor Cipriano.

Do you believe a murderess or do you believe everyone else that helped to convict her for her crime?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:44:57 PM

This is a thread about Leonor Cipriano.

Do you believe a murderess or do you believe everyone else that helped to convict her for her crime?

 I don't think anyone would be surprised if Amaral had told lies in this case
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: John on November 13, 2013, 01:49:16 PM
She told that many different versions in Court there is no doubt she lied.  Question is why?

Consider this for a moment. Why would an innocent woman lie in a case where her daughter had been abducted?  Why not simply tell the truth?

ps I am still awaiting that crucial evidence of her innocence which so many believe exists...or is this yet another myth?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 01:53:09 PM
All that happened there was a faked attempted suicide by jumping down the stairs - that if you know it, (I mean the stairs) makes a suicide impossible.

There are two "stairs" cases (one in the US, have you seen the impressive "staircase" ?, another in Switzerland) where accident fall was suspected to be criminal (and both supposed "pushers" condemned, then released).
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:55:18 PM
She told that many different versions in Court there is no doubt she lied.  Question is why?

Consider this for a moment. Why would an innocent woman lie in a case where her daughter had been abducted?  Why not simply tell the truth?

ps I am still awaiting that crucial evidence of her innocence which so many believe exists...or is this yet another myth?

it is quite possible that she had told the truth initially and it got her a beating and a prison sentence...she then would try anything to get out of prison ..knowing that telling the truth was a waste of time

I don't think anyone believes there is proof of innocence...it is basically impossible to prove innocence
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 01:56:44 PM
There are two "stairs" cases (one in the US, have you seen the impressive "staircase" ?, another in Switzerland) where accident fall was suspected to be criminal (and both supposed "pushers" condemned, then released).

 According to the court the staircase story was a lie told by amaral, and his pj buddies
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 02:16:12 PM
She told that many different versions in Court there is no doubt she lied.  Question is why?

Consider this for a moment. Why would an innocent woman lie in a case where her daughter had been abducted?  Why not simply tell the truth?

ps I am still awaiting that crucial evidence of her innocence which so many believe exists...or is this yet another myth?

What crucial evidence exists of her guilt?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Benice on November 13, 2013, 02:32:48 PM
She told that many different versions in Court there is no doubt she lied.  Question is why?

Consider this for a moment. Why would an innocent woman lie in a case where her daughter had been abducted?  Why not simply tell the truth?

ps I am still awaiting that crucial evidence of her innocence which so many believe exists...or is this yet another myth?

John you keep saying she told lies and different versions in court but LC did not take the Stand - so did not speak at all during the trial.   Why do you keep claiming that she did?

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 02:35:11 PM
The child was dismembered/quartered with an ax, according to João Cipriano.

If she was abducted why did he describe the way he dismembered her and assembled the pieces in plastic bags in order to put them in a deep freezer?

The most revealing was his answer when asked about the sperm that was found in a child's underpanties in the house, he responded: «I didn't hurt her, I just killed her».

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

Next, the two arguidos decided that the minor’s body couldn’t be found. Thus they chose to quarter it, as results from the reconstitution file from pages 2100 onwards. They had the opportunity to do this (while arguida BB cleaned the traces that existed in the living room, arguido AA went to the café where he met witnesses II and MM [Leandro Silva], who confirm that they were at the café with arguido AA and report that afterwards they went to search for CC – thus the two arguidos had the opportunity to stay alone at home and to proceed with the quartering). And there are no doubts that the arguidos undertook the cutting of the minor’s body.

In effect, arguido AA drew the instruments that were used for the quartering by his own hand (page 1885) – a fact that was confirmed by witness DD – and took part in the reconstitution, demonstrating how he used the saw and the knife, how the two arguidos helped each other, how they proceeded with the cuts, the time that they took, how they bagged the minor’s body parts and how they tried to place them inside the deep freezer. This reconstitution, which is legal and valid because it was done voluntarily by the arguido, was watched by witnesses DD (PJ inspector) and CC8 (pathologist), who also confirmed the manner in which the arguido proceeded with the reconstitution; witness DD further confirmed that the deep freezer that was used in the reconstitution was apprehended at the residence of arguida BB on the 15th of October 2004 (cfr. Pages 578 to 580 and photographs on page 1712 and following).



What ax(e)? The reconstruction supposedly involved a knife and a saw? They should have been full of DNA, surely... Were the "instruments" ever presented in court? Were they ever found? Where is the DNA evidence?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 02:44:58 PM
The ruling talks about an "arca frigorífica". Isn't that a fridge? As opposed to an "arca congeladora", which would seem to be a freezer?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
I have no idea under what conditions this reconstruction was made...

According to the SC summary:

aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer * that existed in the living room;

* I have asked if an "arca frigorífica" = a deep freeze or a fridge.

al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;

am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;

What is this reconstruction that was posted online? Is it what was presented to the jurors? If so, how does it relate to what is alleged to have happened?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIBzhWPf9Y

The video above shows an artist's impression of him sawing the tummy of a dead child.

If this "artist's" reconstruction reflects what was shown to the court, then there are substantial divergences. How would that not leave massive traces of DNA to clear up within a tiny timeframe? It doesn't correspond to what was accepted by the court.

If it's not what was represented in court, then what was it based on? Why was it posted?




Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Luz on November 13, 2013, 03:31:53 PM
I am sorry, I translated badly my words.

It was a saw, not an ax....

(http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.5/images/main/A4saw.jpg)
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2013, 03:35:08 PM
I have no idea under what conditions this reconstruction was made...

According to the SC summary:

aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer * that existed in the living room;

* I have asked if an "arca frigorífica" = a deep freeze or a fridge.

al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;

am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;

What is this reconstruction that was posted online? Is it what was presented to the jurors? If so, how does it relate to what is alleged to have happened?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIBzhWPf9Y

The video above shows an artist's impression of him sawing the tummy of a dead child.

If this "artist's" reconstruction reflects what was shown to the court, then there are substantial divergences. How would that not leave massive traces of DNA to clear up within a tiny timeframe? It doesn't correspond to what was accepted by the court.

If it's not what was represented in court, then what was it based on? Why was it posted?


Where were the other children, when all this alleged beating, then chopping and sawing was going on, which must have been noisy and very very messy ? Also noticed that they kept pigs, which have similar blood to humans . Pigs bodies are used to train Cadaver scenting dogs
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
@ Luz

Why did you say that there were no jury trials in Portugal? The possibility is even in your Constitution, Article 207.

Luz

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Re: Scientific Approach
« Reply #130 on: October 07, 2013, 01:51:40 PM »

Quote

Quote from: C.Edwards on October 07, 2013, 01:45:44 PM

You spend so much time scattering around irrelevancies and ducking and diving from questions that it's quite conceivable you can dive into your post history and find anything that supports whatever avenue of inconsequence you happen to currently be pootling along. You were clearly trying to make the point that Amaral was a convicted fraudster at the outset of the Madeleine investigation. This is a complete misrepresentation or shall we say, "davel-ism"?


A very US way of acting. When you have no defense create lies to denigrate the ones that have reached the truth.
In Portugal it doesn't work that way, we have no jury trials. When you are put before a judge or a set of 3 judges you are alone, and it doesn't matter how much dirty work your friends have done for you. You are naked before the Justice.

Yet...


Assistant Prosecutor, José Carlos Pinheiro, has arranged for several key prosecution witnesses to be summoned to court. These include António Leandro (stepfather of Joana), his mother Lurdes David, half-brother Carlos Alberto, Anabela Cipriano and Anatólio Duarte (sister and brother-in-law of Leonor and João Cipriano) and Nelson Cipriano, the defendants’ brother. Leonor Cipriano’s defence had sought to avoid a jury trial, fearing that jurors would be unduly influenced by intense media coverage. João Novais Pacheco, Leonor’s lawyer, said the defence’s objective had been to keep the indictment to one of ‘death by aggravated assault’, punishable by a sentence of between one and five years. This would have precluded a jury trial because juries only preside over cases where ultimate jail terms are equal to or greater than eight years.
http://www.algarveresident.com/8346-0/algarve/joana-accused-could-face-25-years


Portuguese Constitution
Article 207
(Juries, public participation and experts)
1. In such cases and with such composition as the law may lay down, and particularly
when either the prosecution or the defence so request, a jury may participate in the trial of serious crimes, save those involving terrorism or highly organised crime.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 03:36:14 PM
Must say I do not understand any need to chop a body up and sticking it in their freezer their own flesh and blood.....  instead of just disposing of it somewhere....not as if they didnt have time....
Not as if they were evil psycho serial killers......

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 03:56:42 PM
Must say I do not understand any need to chop a body up and sticking it in their freezer their own flesh and blood.....  instead of just disposing of it somewhere....not as if they didnt have time....
Not as if they were evil psycho serial killers......

One of my earlier questions concerns whether the translation is adequate about this fridge/freezer issue.

If it was indeed a deep freeezer, then it's unlikely that other members of the household would have opened it the next day. If it's just a fridge, anyone would have opened it in the normal course of everyday life.

So which is it? All I've found is that it is referred to as an "arca frigorífica".
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 04:00:12 PM
I am sorry, I translated badly my words.

It was a saw, not an ax....

(http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.5/images/main/A4saw.jpg)

Wouldn't this have been full of DNA? Was this saw ever found and analysed? What about the knife? If they were, what were the results of forensic analysis?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:06:10 PM
One of my earlier questions concerns whether the translation is adequate about this fridge/freezer issue.

If it was indeed a deep freeezer, then it's unlikely that other members of the household would have opened it the next day. If it's just a fridge, anyone would have opened it in the normal course of everyday life.

So which is it? All I've found is that it is referred to as an "arca frigorífica".

Sounds like a deep freezer to me......my question was why they would do this in the first place......then so many people do this for various reasons you would be shocked...but in the whole context of the case I dont get it
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:06:56 PM
Does anyone who followed the case know what Leonors common law husband made of all of this? Leandro  Silva I believe was his name.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 04:08:52 PM

Portuguese Constitution
Article 207
(Juries, public participation and experts)
1. In such cases and with such composition as the law may lay down, and particularly
when either the prosecution or the defence so request, a jury may participate in the trial of serious crimes, save those involving terrorism or highly organised crime.
It's not particularly at all, but only when either the accusation or the defence request it".
quando a acusação ou a defesa o requeiram, which is very rare.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 04:12:50 PM
Sounds like a deep freezer to me......my question was why they would do this in the first place......then so many people do this for various reasons you would be shocked...but in the whole context of the case I dont get it
A freezer, not a fridge, yes, chest type.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:20:03 PM
A freezer, not a fridge, yes, chest type.

thats what I understand too, arca means chest, trunk.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 04:24:19 PM
A freezer, not a fridge, yes, chest type.

What would be the usual distinction between "arca frigorífica" and "arca congeladora"?

"Arca frigorífica" is what is mentioned in the SC ruling.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 13, 2013, 04:24:43 PM
Must say I do not understand any need to chop a body up and sticking it in their freezer their own flesh and blood.....  instead of just disposing of it somewhere....not as if they didnt have time....
Not as if they were evil psycho serial killers......

I was shocked at how cavalier the body of Caylee Anthoney was dealt with there is no answering you.

I cant imagine taken a life never mind wondering what to do with the body...who knows how people think in these circumstances.

From the brother.

He said he cut his niece's body in small pieces, put her in a fridge box, then put her inside an old car that was taken to Spain to be crushed and burned. Probably took the tools with him which would explain why non were found.

I dont think it was in a fridge or freezer I think its translation again, i expect she was put in a cool box/fridge/box which would make sense to him taking her in the back of the car.

They found a little girl in a box simiilar in the states after Maddy went missing and no one knew who she was, they even did a DNA comparison for Maddys DNA because they thought the box could have travelled the ocean...........

I dont understand if the child fell and hit her head, why kill her her or finish her off, why not just take her to the hospital and say she fell...kids do dont they.......or was it to cover up something else sexual abuse perhaps....

Its the same with CA, why if she drowned accidently would you then stuff her in bags and throw in her a swamp? Why not just ring 911 i dont get it. Kids drown all the time in swimming pools....

Then to just toss her away like garbage....who would do that?

How can you answer it really. Non of us can unless we have actually done it....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:28:47 PM
What would be the usual distinction between "arca frigorífica" and "arca congeladora"?

"Arca frigorífica" is what is mentioned in the SC ruling.

I dont know but the latter is freezer

Whats the point in nit picking though....its secondary
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
I was shocked at how cavalier the body of Caylee Anthoney was dealt with there is no answering you.

I cant imagine taken a life never mind wondering what to do with the body...who knows how people think in these circumstances.

From the brother.

He said he cut his niece's body in small pieces, put her in a fridge box, then put her inside an old car that was taken to Spain to be crushed and burned. Probably took the tools with him which would explain why non were found.

I dont think it was in a fridge or freezer I think its translation again, i expect she was put in a cool box/fridge/box which would make sense to him taking her in the back of the car.

They found a little girl in a box simiilar in the states after Maddy went missing and no one knew who she was, they even did a DNA comparison for Maddys DNA because they thought the box could have travelled the ocean...........

I dont understand if the child fell and hit her head, why kill her her or finish her off, why not just take her to the hospital and say she fell...kids do dont they.......or was it to cover up something else sexual abuse perhaps....

Its the same with CA, why if she drowned accidently would you then stuff her in bags and throw in her a swamp? Why not just ring 911 i dont get it. Kids drown all the time in swimming pools....

Then to just toss her away like garbage....who would do that?

How can you answer it really. Non of us can unless we have actually done it....

Please dont start me on the crazy criminal Anthony family  case.....my only question was why the need to dismember if indeed they did, why not just disposal, easy enough....there was no need unless they were sick in the head.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 13, 2013, 04:37:02 PM
Please dont start me on the crazy criminal Anthony family  case.....my only question was why the need to dismember if indeed they did, why not just disposal, easy enough....there was no need unless they were sick in the head..... 8((()*/

Exactly.

I made a comparison to CA case because its the same really why dispose of a body like that when the child is allegedgly to have died in an accident, so for me both of them must be criminally insane and sick in the head.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: colombosstogey on November 13, 2013, 04:41:40 PM
Actually you can compare the two, cipriano and the mother of Cayley. They both said they were victims of sexual abuse and that is why they behaved as they did etc....

There is more in common with LC and CA then McCanns case in my mind to be honest.

Whether any of it is true is a different matter both used the same defence and all of it was circumstancial but both admitted to a lesser charge of death by accident etc......

Leonora stated the child fell after she slapped her and hit her head.
CA said the child drowned.

Like i said quite a few comparisons sadly both children died....

Sick old world isnt it.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 04:49:37 PM
It's not particularly at all, but only when either the accusation or the defence request it".
quando a acusação ou a defesa o requeiram, which is very rare.

It might not be a frequent occurrence, but Luz had stated that there were no jury trials in Portugal. This does not appear to be correct.

NB: yet the possibility is in her country's Constitution.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 04:56:51 PM
Actually you can compare the two, cipriano and the mother of Cayley. They both said they were victims of sexual abuse and that is why they behaved as they did etc....

There is more in common with LC and CA then McCanns case in my mind to be honest.

Whether any of it is true is a different matter both used the same defence and all of it was circumstancial but both admitted to a lesser charge of death by accident etc......

Leonora stated the child fell after she slapped her and hit her head.
CA said the child drowned.

Like i said quite a few comparisons sadly both children died....

Sick old world isnt it.

oh yes... i didnt know LC had said that, but she has said so many different thngs...as for the caylee anthony case, Im really struggling go understand how the grandmother said caylee died in her home  in the swimming pool....but her body was found decaying in the woods....why is she not being investigated if her daughter has been found innocent? Strange
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
I dont know but the latter is freezer

I agree. So the former does not seem to be a stand-alone freezer. It may be a combo, though. If that were the case, how many combos would have had sufficient room to stuff bits of a dismembered child in the freezer compartment in a household with very limited financial resources?

The so-called blood traces in a chink of a drawer... were where? The SC ruling only refers to an "arca frigorífica" and they were never identified as hers.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2013, 05:13:48 PM
The torture question you have asked me before.

Look up the answer.

As for the rest............................................ >@@(*&)

I have asked you repeatedly and you haven't answered yet.  You have twisted and side stepped, but I want a direct nswer. 

Do you condone torture Stephen

Please, Just Yes or no?


Simples
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 05:14:28 PM
Thanks Anna...but most of that sounds like gobbledygook...cant make head or tail of alot of it...and judging by the source...wouldnt trust it anyway......I would like something from the YEAR he was questioned  or talked, not five years later.........with the involvement of this shady character.....
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 05:20:51 PM
I have asked you repeatedly and you haven't answered yet.  You have twisted and side stepped, but I want a direct nswer. 

Do you condone torture Stephen

Please, Just Yes or no?


Simples

I have answered the question before to you,

and if you even have a vague sense of logical thought you already would know my answer.

P.S. I'm staggered you could ask such a stupid question.

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Carana on November 13, 2013, 05:24:46 PM
Let's turn it around. If I or anyone else were in the dock, what would you consider to be fair evidence in this case?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
I agree. So the former does not seem to be a stand-alone freezer. It may be a combo, though. If that were the case, how many combos would have had sufficient room to stuff bits of a dismembered child in the freezer compartment in a household with very limited financial resources?

The so-called blood traces in a chink of a drawer... were where? The SC ruling only refers to an "arco frigorífico" and they were never identified as hers.

No idea......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Anna on November 13, 2013, 06:59:31 PM
I agree. So the former does not seem to be a stand-alone freezer. It may be a combo, though. If that were the case, how many combos would have had sufficient room to stuff bits of a dismembered child in the freezer compartment in a household with very limited financial resources?

The so-called blood traces in a chink of a drawer... were where? The SC ruling only refers to an "arco frigorífico" and they were never identified as hers.

According to this article it was a refridgerated trunk.............    http://www.algarveresident.com/10046-0/algarve/portugals-silent-child-victims
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:03:52 PM
I have answered the question before to you,

and if you even have a vague sense of logical thought you already would know my answer.

P.S. I'm staggered you could ask such a stupid question.

 of course you don't condone torture Stephen...what you do is...pretend it didn't happen
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 07:12:30 PM
of course you don't condone torture Stephen...what you do is...pretend it didn't happen

Pathetic reply.

What you want is for everyone to agree  'Cipriano was tortured', merely to feed your hatred/dislike of Amaral and the PJ.

However, you require absolute proof for that, and not the word of a liar .
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:14:24 PM
Pathetic reply.

What you want is for everyone to agree  'Cipriano was tortured', merely to feed your hatred/dislike of Amaral and the PJ.

However, you require absolute proof for that, and not the word of a liar .

 No capitals..thats better..have you heard of Amnesty Intrnational
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 07:15:54 PM
No capitals..thats better..have you heard of Amnesty Intrnational

Of course I have.

So have Amnesty taken the word of a liar as truth ?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:16:39 PM
Amnesty International are an organisation that campaign against torture and they have been following the Cipriano case for some years
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:17:06 PM
Of course I have.

So have Amnesty taken the word of a liar as truth ?

 no they have taken the word of the Portuguese court
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 07:40:56 PM
no they have taken the word of the Portuguese court

Then there should have been an independent investigation of the so called torture.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 07:46:36 PM
Then there should have been an independent investigation of the so called torture.

 is the Portuguese court not independent
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 13, 2013, 08:07:10 PM
A freezer, not a fridge, yes, chest type.

Really?

How do you open drawers in a chest type freezer?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 13, 2013, 08:44:36 PM
Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano, 04 May 2007

Expresso

An official of the PJ of Portimão is the seventh police officer to be implicated in the process of alleged assaults on the mother of Joana.

18:00 Friday, May 4, 2007

Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the Judicial Police in Portimao has been made an arguido in the process investigating the alleged assaults on Leonor Cipriano, which occurred in October 2004. The woman complained of having been beaten by punches, kicks and with a cardboard tube during "informal inquiries" that ocurred without the presence of a defense counsel and without the knowledge of the Public Prosecutor who investigated the disappearance of the child, the eight-year-old daughter of Leonor.

Goncalo Amaral was then coordinator of the PJ in Faro and this is why he has been made an arguido. Six inspectors of the Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism are also arguidos and have already been acknowledged. Four were not recognized by the complainant, who identified the other two but exonerated them of any assault. Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to 16 years in prison for the murder, co-authored with her brother, of Joana. The child's body was never found.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 08:47:34 PM
Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano, 04 May 2007

Expresso

An official of the PJ of Portimão is the seventh police officer to be implicated in the process of alleged assaults on the mother of Joana.

18:00 Friday, May 4, 2007

Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the Judicial Police in Portimao has been made an arguido in the process investigating the alleged assaults on Leonor Cipriano, which occurred in October 2004. The woman complained of having been beaten by punches, kicks and with a cardboard tube during "informal inquiries" that ocurred without the presence of a defense counsel and without the knowledge of the Public Prosecutor who investigated the disappearance of the child, the eight-year-old daughter of Leonor.

Goncalo Amaral was then coordinator of the PJ in Faro and this is why he has been made an arguido. Six inspectors of the Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism are also arguidos and have already been acknowledged. Four were not recognized by the complainant, who identified the other two but exonerated them of any assault. Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to 16 years in prison for the murder, co-authored with her brother, of Joana. The child's body was never found.

Ah yes,

Leonor the Liar.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: DCI on November 13, 2013, 09:06:51 PM
Ah yes,

Leonor the Liar.

Not Amaral though?  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2013, 09:13:19 PM
Not Amaral though?  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

You really love him, don't you. 8)-))) 8)--)) 8)--))
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 10:10:07 PM
Stephen...as I have said many times ...get your basic facts right,..you don't   and that's why all your conclusions are rubbish
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Montclair on November 13, 2013, 10:13:04 PM
OK Stephen so what is the source of these 2009 comments...and

what were the results of the investigations

The "comments" came from the news agency Agência Lusa and the results of the investigation was 7 months added to Leonor's time in prison.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 10:15:53 PM
The "comments" came from the news agency Agência Lusa and the results of the investigation was 7 months added to Leonor's time in prison.

 and were there any changes to the determination of torture by the pj?...NO
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Davel on November 13, 2013, 10:17:51 PM
 

and were there any changes to the determination of torture by the pj?...NO what you have quoted is a newspaper report
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: icabodcrane on November 13, 2013, 11:03:27 PM
and were there any changes to the determination of torture by the pj?...NO what you have quoted is a newspaper report

Joana Cipriano's   mother  was beaten  ...  of that there is little doubt

Since the injuries she suffered happened while she was in a police station there is every possibility that she suffered them at the hands of police officers

That is an awful image ...  a woman being hit by men

Awful  enough,  I think,  without the dramatic language constantly introduced   ...  as though being  'beaten'  is not sufficiently gruesome

'Torture'  is the word thrown up, time and again  (  often in bold or coloured font ...  to add emphasis ) 

Well,  maybe it's just me,  but 'torture'  conjures up images of some  God forsaken dungeon, with the rack, and thumbscrews,  and   ...  well,  you get the picture

It appears to me that the  almost gleeful over-egging of this particular pudding is very much agenda driven
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 11:14:04 PM
Joana Cipriano's   mother  was beaten  ...  of that there is little doubt

Since the injuries she suffered happened while she was in a police station there is every possibility that she suffered them at the hands of police officers

That is an awful image ...  a woman being hit by men

Awful  enough,  I think,  without the dramatic language constantly introduced   ...  as though being  'beaten'  is not sufficiently gruesome

'Torture'  is the word thrown up, time and again  (  often in bold or coloured font ...  to add emphasis ) 

Well,  maybe it's just me,  but 'torture'  conjures up images of some  God forsaken dungeon, with the rack, and thumbscrews,  and   ...  well,  you get the picture

It appears to me that the  almost gleeful over-egging of this particular pudding is very much agenda driven

Theres also the possibility a few officers slapped her around but she got mJority of her injuries when sent back to prison...she had already confessed a day or two before the beatings......
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 14, 2013, 12:14:38 AM
Actually you can compare the two, cipriano and the mother of Cayley. They both said they were victims of sexual abuse and that is why they behaved as they did etc....

There is more in common with LC and CA then McCanns case in my mind to be honest.

Whether any of it is true is a different matter both used the same defence and all of it was circumstancial but both admitted to a lesser charge of death by accident etc......

Leonora stated the child fell after she slapped her and hit her head.
CA said the child drowned.

Like i said quite a few comparisons sadly both children died....

Sick old world isnt it.
Would you care to provide the proof for your statement that Leonor Cipriano was abused herself , please   
Do not quote words said after the torture please, cos they cannot be trusted as true. 
Do not quote words that Amaral has said, because they cannot be trusted as true either.  Amaral is a court proven liar.
Do not quote words from the Court Records either because they cannot be trusted.  The words in that record were provided by tortured out people, who broke ..... or by a PJ Officer who sadly is proven as a liar with a criminal record.  An officer who for whatever reason wanted the case "solved" with Leoner and Joaom as the fall guys.

He obviously had no case and that is why he brought the hard boys in .  THe DCCB from Lisnbon , the anti terrorist group.  He knew that he would get a "confession" after the severe beating administerd.
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 14, 2013, 12:21:31 AM
Some photos of Leonors torture injuries

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics2.jpg

 (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics2.jpg)

Full face .  One eye closed.



http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics3.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics3.jpg) 

side face looking at the left eye and cheek



http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics4.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics4.jpg)

3/4 side face looking at right eye and cheek


The damage to her head was so bad that the blood ran down above and  into her eyes.

She was blinded for a month





Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 14, 2013, 12:25:10 AM
Really?

How do you open drawers in a chest type freezer?

Well spotted DCI  8@??)(

Yep how do you open the drawers in a chest Freezer?
Title: Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
Post by: sadie on November 14, 2013, 12:45:34 AM
Outrageously the main torture photographs ofv Leonors bbody have been wiped off the internet.  Or at least the links have been cut. 

Now I wonder who would do that?  And why?  There has to be a reason


But some smaller photos, which are much less horendous but show some of the bruising.

I got these from Joana Morias. 
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VBoOuOIBFiM/SS-vMgCI6TI/AAAAAAAAA3w/ZlQgPSB55BM/s200/lesions2.jpg

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VBoOuOIBFiM/SS-vMgC