UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Portugal's missing children and child kidnapping cases. => Topic started by: John on January 28, 2014, 04:36:51 AM

Title: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on January 28, 2014, 04:36:51 AM
There is without doubt a history of child disappearances on the Algarve going back many years.  I have purposely not used the abduction label since abduction has not been proven in several of the cases such as René Hasée (6), Joana Cipriano (8) and Madeleine McCann (almost 4).   There is also an alarming number of reports of British children, mainly girls, being targeted.

Some people choose to disregard these reports referring to them as Maddie hype, bogus, fantasy and the such like.  Whatever ones views are, there is without doubt something sinister going on which the Portuguese authorities appear unable or unwilling to stop.

Please discuss.



Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart



[This post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information]
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 06:05:28 AM
That is a total falsehood. No British children were ever attacked, other than a british girl 9 years before Madeleine, and that was abused by a friend of the family(another british).

Those faked cases that Kate McCann had the effrontery of mentioning in her book never happened. That is all fabrications to sell the abduction theory.

That is not true Luz.  There have been several attempts to snatch children over the last several years around the Algarve.  Can I remind you of some like the man chased from the child's bedroom, the attempt to take a child in a cafe and an attempt by someone on a motorcycle to lift a Londonderry girl while on holiday.  There are probably many others which like these have never even been followed up.

If you believe for a minute that these attempted abductions are fake then you are closing your eyes to reality.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: colombosstogey on March 05, 2014, 09:49:39 AM
That is not true Luz.  There have been several attempts to snatch children over the last several years around the Algarve.  Can I remind you of some like the man chased from the child's bedroom, the attempt to take a child in a cafe and an attempt by someone on a motorcycle to lift a Londonderry girl while on holiday.  There are probably many others which like these have never even been followed up.

If you believe for a minute that these attempted abductions are fake then you are closing your eyes to reality.

They are BOGUS. IF you read into them properly and made little sense when reported. The only people saying they were real were people wanting to use these so called near abductions to strengthen the case for the McCann child to have been abducted.

For example Carolina Santos. BOGUS

If you check on archives you need to look at this piece from the Diário de Notícias of May 25, 2007:

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

Each one of the cases you mentioned can be blown out of the water.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
They are BOGUS. IF you read into them properly and made little sense when reported. The only people saying they were real were people wanting to use these so called near abductions to strengthen the case for the McCann child to have been abducted.

For example Carolina Santos. BOGUS

If you check on archives you need to look at this piece from the Diário de Notícias of May 25, 2007:

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

Each one of the cases you mentioned can be blown out of the water.

Bogus and can be blown out of the water...really?

Exactly how is this fake? 

Beast on a bike targeted girl, 4, weeks before Maddie was snatched. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3011.msg106807#msg106807)

Does an 'attempted kidnap' not merit the same condemnation as an actual kidnap in your book? 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 12:48:11 PM
Maybe these were fake too?

APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). s.e.x assault on 10-year-old girl.

JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on nine-year-old girl.

JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.

OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on eight-year-old girl

CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.

MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 12:48:30 PM
Bogus and can be blown out of the water...really?

Exactly how is this fake? 

Beast on a bike targeted girl, 4, weeks before Maddie was snatched. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3011.msg106807#msg106807)

Does an 'attempted kidnap' not merit the same condemnation as an actual kidnap in your book?

From that link

Wierd....sketch of scruffy suspect
Says the Sun

This is the sketch done by Melissa Little IIRC  for Mrs Cooper's creepy toothy George Harrison charity collector..who gave her the creeps in April 07.....since when was it the same man?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 12:54:44 PM

Man on motorbike tried to snatch four-year-old girl close to Madeleine McCann apartment

A man on a motorbike tried to snatch a four-year-old girl yards from where Madeleine McCann vanished only weeks later, it has been revealed.

The man drove up to Tirna Duncan on a moped and reached out as if to grab her, according to the Sun on Sunday.

When he tried to grab Tirna, her parents spotted him and yelled at him as they gave chase. He sped off, pulled over, shoved the moped in the back of a white van and drove off.

The Duncans gave details of the kidnap bid to the British Embassy and Irish police after they heard about three-year-old Madeleine.

Yet they have never been quizzed by Portuguese or British detectives.

Mum Shauna, 42, from Londonderry, Northern Ireland said: "Maddie would still be here if he had got Tirna. If we hadn't shouted, he would have lifted her."

The Duncans saw the goatee-bearded man lurking by their flat every day during their March 2007 stay in Praia de Luz and 'up to 30 times' in all.

Mum-of-five Shauna said: "No matter what time I looked, he'd be there. He was watching our children."
The family's two teenage daughters ran when they spotted him following them. A private detective did visit the Duncans and showed Tirna the sketch of the suspect.

Shauna recalls her saying: "That's the man who tried to get me."

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5266797/man-on-motorbike-tried-to-snatch-girl-yards-from-where-maddie-mccann-was-snatched.html
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 12:58:31 PM
When he tried to grab Tirna, her parents spotted him and yelled at him as they gave chase. He sped off, pulled over, shoved the moped in the back of a white van and drove off.

WTF??


"Maddie would still be here if he had got Tirna."

WTF??

"No matter what time I looked, he'd be there."

Where?

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 01:04:07 PM
The Duncans gave details of the kidnap bid to the British Embassy and Irish police after they heard about three-year-old Madeleine.

So serious was the incident that they didn't bother to report it until after they heard about Madeleine.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 05, 2014, 01:05:56 PM
When he tried to grab Tirna, her parents spotted him and yelled at him as they gave chase. He sped off, pulled over, shoved the moped in the back of a white van and drove off.

WTF??


"Maddie would still be here if he had got Tirna."

WTF??

"No matter what time I looked, he'd be there."

Where?

All I see in this is clutching at straws.

Micro thin straws.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 05, 2014, 01:52:37 PM
Although many of these reports are subject to Press enhancement there does appear to be a history of child abductions in Spain and Portugal.  Take the case of Mari luz Cortés who was abducted from Huelva on 13th January 2008. (8 months after Madeleine and just along the coast)

Has anyone noticed that the common denominator in many of these cases is close proximity to a harbour or the coast?



(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R9GIa-yNnwI/AAAAAAAABgY/JDBVyAvMXOY/s400/mari+luz.bmp)


The Civil Guard today located in an undetermined point of the Huelva coast the body of a girl who could be Mari Luz, the girl from Huelva who disappeared from Huelva on the 13 of January. Sources of the Subdelegation of the Government in Huelva said to Europe Press that someone sighted a body floating in the sea and gave warning to the Civil Guard, who, with a boat, is at the moment towing the body to the 'Muelle de Levante'. The same sources indicated that, although there is no confirmation, the first indications aim that the body is the one of the of five years old, Mari Luz.

www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mari-luz-corts-tragic-ending.htmlw


Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Anna on March 05, 2014, 02:00:07 PM
Although many of these reports are subject to Press enhancement there does appear to be a history of child abductions in Spain and Portugal.  Take the case of Mari luz Cortés who was abducted from Huelva on 13th January 2008. (8 months after Madeleine and just along the coast)

Has anyone noticed that the common denominator in many of these cases is close proximity to a harbour or the coast?



(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R9GIa-yNnwI/AAAAAAAABgY/JDBVyAvMXOY/s400/mari+luz.bmp)


The Civil Guard today located in an undetermined point of the Huelva coast the body of a girl who could be Mari Luz, the girl from Huelva who disappeared from Huelva on the 13 of January. Sources of the Subdelegation of the Government in Huelva said to Europe Press that someone sighted a body floating in the sea and gave warning to the Civil Guard, who, with a boat, is at the moment towing the body to the 'Muelle de Levante'. The same sources indicated that, although there is no confirmation, the first indications aim that the body is the one of the of five years old, Mari Luz.

www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mari-luz-corts-tragic-ending.htmlw

It also borders Portugal.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 02:12:10 PM
Although many of these reports are subject to Press enhancement there does appear to be a history of child abductions in Spain and Portugal.  Take the case of Mari luz Cortés who was abducted from Huelva on 13th January 2008. (8 months after Madeleine and just along the coast)

Has anyone noticed that the common denominator in many of these cases is close proximity to a harbour or the coast?



(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R9GIa-yNnwI/AAAAAAAABgY/JDBVyAvMXOY/s400/mari+luz.bmp)


The Civil Guard today located in an undetermined point of the Huelva coast the body of a girl who could be Mari Luz, the girl from Huelva who disappeared from Huelva on the 13 of January. Sources of the Subdelegation of the Government in Huelva said to Europe Press that someone sighted a body floating in the sea and gave warning to the Civil Guard, who, with a boat, is at the moment towing the body to the 'Muelle de Levante'. The same sources indicated that, although there is no confirmation, the first indications aim that the body is the one of the of five years old, Mari Luz.

www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/mari-luz-corts-tragic-ending.htmlw
This little girl wasn't abducted from bed, she was on her own in the street.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 05, 2014, 02:13:07 PM
This little girl wasn't abducted from bed, she was on her own in the street.

Nobody said she was  8-)(--)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 02:14:32 PM
Maybe these were fake too?

APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). s.e.x assault on 10-year-old girl.

JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on nine-year-old girl.

JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.

OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on eight-year-old girl

CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.

MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.
Where do those alleged crimes come from ? Rumours ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
Nobody said she was  8-)(--)
True, then what has this case of paedophilia and murder to do with Madeleine ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Anna on March 05, 2014, 02:27:34 PM
The trial of the suspects in the death of Mari Luz Cortés, the little five-year-old girl who disappeared in January of 2008, started today in Huelva, under strong security measures.

 The main suspect said that he confessed the crime under coercion, adding that due to the pressure that was exercised on him, he could even have confessed to being responsible for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (the little British girl that disappeared in the Algarve in May of 2007).

 Santiago del Valle stated that he had "no idea of what happened to the little girl" because he was not with her "at any time".

 The accusation demands 23 years in prison for Santiago del Valle (20 for murder and three for sexual abuse) and 17 for his sister Rosa (for murder).

 Mari Luz Cortés disappeared in January of 2008 and was found 54 days later in the river in Huelva.

 in: SIC, 16.02.2011

Videos

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2011/02/mari-luz-cortes-case-trial-started-in.html



Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 02:31:32 PM
The links to the reports which apparently can be 'blown out of the water' according to Columbosstogey.



1. Just 4 weeks before Madeleine disappeared and also in Praia da Luz.  Beast on a bike tried to snatch another British girl.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3011.0



2. Just 6 weeks before Madeleine disappeared and 30 miles from Praia da Luz. Detectives are to interview the mother whose drink was spiked by gypsy gang who showed an unnatural interest in her fair-haired daughter.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-claims-madeleine-mccann-kidnappers-3127121



3. A MUM has told Scotland Yard how she chased an intruder away from her Algarve apartment after she found him heading towards her child’s cot

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-probing-claims-3117225
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 05, 2014, 02:35:56 PM
The links to the reports which apparently can be 'blown out of the water' according to Columbosstogey.



1. Beast on a bike targeted girl, 4, weeks before Maddie was snatched 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3011.0



2. Detectives are to interview the mother whose drink was spiked by gypsy gang who showed an unnatural interest in her fair-haired daughter

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-claims-madeleine-mccann-kidnappers-3127121



3. A MUM has told Scotland Yard how she chased an intruder away from her Algarve apartment after she found him heading towards her child’s cot

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-probing-claims-3117225

Couple of dubious sources, there  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
Couple of dubious sources, there  ?{)(**
Is it all you have, John ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 03:04:25 PM

2. Detectives are to interview the mother whose drink was spiked by gypsy gang who showed an unnatural interest in her fair-haired daughter

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-claims-madeleine-mccann-kidnappers-3127121


"She says she reported the dramatic incident to the Find Madeleine campaign line in 2007, but they were then too busy pursuing other lines of inquiry."

"The mum contacted police last October after a blonde girl found living with Roma gypsies in Greece was mistakenly thought to be Madeleine."



So she rang the find Madeleine campaign line in 2007,
but she didn't bother to ring the police for another 6 years.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Anna on March 05, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
Maybe these were fake too?

APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). s.e.x assault on 10-year-old girl.

JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on nine-year-old girl.

JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.

OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on eight-year-old girl

CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.

MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.

These all occurred after Casa Pia trial started 2004, which didn't end until 2010
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 03:14:12 PM
Opening post for info...

There is without doubt a history of child disappearances on the Algarve going back many years.  I have purposely not used the abduction label since abduction has not been proven in several of the cases such as René Hasée (6), Joana Cipriano (8) and Madeleine McCann (almost 4).   There is also an alarming number of reports of British children, mainly girls, being targeted.

Some people choose to disregard these reports referring to them as Maddie hype, bogus, fantasy and the such like.  Whatever ones views are, there is without doubt something sinister going on which the Portuguese authorities appear unable or unwilling to stop.

Please discuss.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 05, 2014, 03:19:50 PM
The blinkered approach by some to what has and is going on with these children says much about them.

Can I ask you Anne, are you so naive as to believe these events didn't occur??   Is one case of child abduction not one too many or are you merely an apologist for all things Portuguese?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 05, 2014, 03:30:14 PM
Is it all you have, John ?

Two attempts to snatch a British child in and near Praia da Luz just weeks before Madeleine disappeared and you ask is that all I have?   Unbelievable Anne!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 05, 2014, 04:03:35 PM
Two attempts to snatch a British child in and near Praia da Luz just weeks before Madeleine disappeared and you ask is that all I have?   Unbelievable Anne!

From the Tabloid sources provided, I wouldn't know whether to believe them or not.
Are there any verifiable police reports of these incidents?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 05, 2014, 04:07:42 PM
Opening post for info...

There is without doubt a history of child disappearances on the Algarve going back many years.  I have purposely not used the abduction label since abduction has not been proven in several of the cases such as René Hasée (6), Joana Cipriano (8) and Madeleine McCann (almost 4).   There is also an alarming number of reports of British children, mainly girls, being targeted.

Some people choose to disregard these reports referring to them as Maddie hype, bogus, fantasy and the such like.  Whatever ones views are, there is without doubt something sinister going on which the Portuguese authorities appear unable or unwilling to stop.

Please discuss.

Ok, is it statistically significant though? Is there a larger percentage of child disappearances in the Algarve than in other countries, taking into account population size, education levels and economic prosperity?

Without that information, we cant really have a discussion.
 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 05, 2014, 04:20:14 PM
Two attempts to snatch a British child in and near Praia da Luz just weeks before Madeleine disappeared and you ask is that all I have?   Unbelievable Anne!

"She says she reported the dramatic incident to the Find Madeleine campaign line in 2007, but they were then too busy pursuing other lines of inquiry."

Yep, in Morocco >@@(*&)


Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 04:36:48 PM
The blinkered approach by some to what has and is going on with these children says much about them.

Can I ask you Anne, are you so naive as to believe these events didn't occur??   Is one case of child abduction not one too many or are you merely an apologist for all things Portuguese?
I'm very naive, sure, I don't believe that no Boeing smashed the Pentagone in 9 eleven, for instance.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 05, 2014, 04:40:42 PM
Ok, is it statistically significant though? Is there a larger percentage of child disappearances in the Algarve than in other countries, taking into account population size, education levels and economic prosperity?

Without that information, we cant really have a discussion.

I tend to agree that we cannot have an informed debate without proper (official) data. Data gleaned from that tinternet can be misleading depending on the bias of the source. I am also wary of quoting mileages from PdL; of what relevance is it?. In the UK for example Coventry is about 50 miles from Stafford, less or more they are linked by the M6. Why would a crime committed in Stafford this year be linked to similar crime in Coventry 2 years earlier?. It would probably have a tape run over it to see if there were common details but no conclusion would be jumped to on the basis of its only 50 miles away. By all means lets have a look over say a ten year period for all children abducted in Portugal and plot the locations and all relevant details then try to draw a conclusion. But so far we seem to be saying children are abducted in Portugal some of whom were on the Algarve. Yes and?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 04:48:09 PM
Ok, is it statistically significant though? Is there a larger percentage of child disappearances in the Algarve than in other countries, taking into account population size, education levels and economic prosperity?

Without that information, we cant really have a discussion.
I do agree totally with this.
Before suggesting (and that's how collective beliefs start) that there is a "history of children disappearing in the Algarve", consider the Algarve on a reasonable length of time and compare the results with similar holiday places also on a reasonable length of time.
Don't forget that we tend to represent random in a fallacious way. The truth is often contra intuitive.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 05, 2014, 04:53:16 PM
I do agree totally with this.
Before suggesting (and that's how collective beliefs start) that there is a "history of children disappearing in the Algarve", consider the Algarve on a reasonable length of time and compare the results with similar holiday places also on a reasonable length of time.
Don't forget that we tend to represent random in a fallacious way. The truth is often contra intuitive.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 04:53:40 PM
I tend to agree that we cannot have an informed debate without proper (official) data. Data gleaned from that tinternet can be misleading depending on the bias of the source. I am also wary of quoting mileages from PdL; of what relevance is it?. In the UK for example Coventry is about 50 miles from Stafford, less or more they are linked by the M6. Why would a crime committed in Stafford this year be linked to similar crime in Coventry 2 years earlier?. It would probably have a tape run over it to see if there were common details but no conclusion would be jumped to on the basis of its only 50 miles away. By all means lets have a look over say a ten year period for all children abducted in Portugal and plot the locations and all relevant details then try to draw a conclusion. But so far we seem to be saying children are abducted in Portugal some of whom were on the Algarve. Yes and?
It a cognitive bias to hypothesize a correlation.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
Hmmm. I guess I'm in the middle on this issue.

The tabloid hacks had virtually nothing to actually report on, aside from trying to listen to gossip, strike up conversations and get contact details for follow-up stories.

Some tabloid press reports may well have been invented or exaggerated, some may be somewhere in the middle and more serious ones may have been kept quiet.

On the latter:
- I find it hard to imagine that if a child had been through a traumatic experience that the parents would blab to the nearest tabby hack.

- If the PJ hadn't apprehended a culprit, the unofficial PJ media outlets would have been unlikely to report on it.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 05:07:36 PM
It a cognitive bias to hypothesize a correlation.

As in juxtaposing a photo of the McCanns smiling at well-wishers outside the church following a service expressing hope for their missing child with one of Mariluz's parents on their way to church for the funeral of their murdered daughter?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 05:11:33 PM
As in juxtaposing a photo of the McCanns smiling at well-wishers outside the church following a service expressing hope for their missing child with one of Mariluz's parents on their way to church for the funeral of their murdered daughter?
This is manipulation of public opinion.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 05:29:56 PM
This is manipulation of public opinion.

I agree with you on that.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 05:37:19 PM
This is manipulation of public opinion.

I agree, but why?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 05:54:53 PM
I agree, but why?
No special intention.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 05, 2014, 05:57:57 PM
Two attempts to snatch a British child in and near Praia da Luz just weeks before Madeleine disappeared and you ask is that all I have?   Unbelievable Anne!

And then there are the 8  British families who came forward to the UK police to report the sexual abuse of their children in their own beds/bedrooms - some whilst their parents actually slept in another room.    All within  an hours drive of PdL during the 3 years prior to Madeleine's disappearance - the last one occurring only a mere 6 months before.







Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:04:58 PM
And then there are the 8  British families who came forward to the UK police to report the sexual abuse of their children in their own beds/bedrooms - some whilst their parents actually slept in another room.    All within  an hours drive of PdL during the 3 years prior to Madeleine's disappearance - the last one occurring only a mere 6 months before.
A myth. Unless you produce neutral sources (not Mrs McCann)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 06:06:57 PM
No special intention.

Of course not, Anne. Plucked out of mid-air, no doubt. ;)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 06:08:59 PM
Former British policemen Dave Edgar and Arthur Cowley, who are working for Mr and Mrs McCann, want to eliminate Hewlett from their inquiries.
 
A source close to the investigation said there were other, more significant, lines of inquiry than Hewlett.

'There are 38 known sex offenders in the Algarve,' the source said. 'The area is a magnet for paedophiles. There have been seven sexual assaults involving the children of tourists in the Algarve in the last four years.
 
They all have the same modus operandi as Madeleine's disappearance - that is, a break-in at a holiday apartment and children molested.

'Five happened before Madeleine's abduction, and two afterwards. One took place a month before she vanished.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187435/Madeleine-McCann-hunters-claim-Algarve-awash-paedophiles.html
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:11:41 PM
Of course not, Anne. Plucked out of mid-air, no doubt. ;)
What's your analysis ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:13:12 PM
Former British policemen Dave Edgar and Arthur Cowley, who are working for Mr and Mrs McCann, want to eliminate Hewlett from their inquiries.
 
A source close to the investigation said there were other, more significant, lines of inquiry than Hewlett.

@)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 06:15:12 PM
Kate McCann accuses Algarve police of sex abuse cover up

Kate McCann has accused Portuguese police of covering up a series of child sex abuse cases before her daughter Madeleine was abducted.


The claim is made in a new book Madeleine, in which Mrs McCann writes honestly about her torment in the four years since her daughter went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in Portugal.
 

In the forthcoming book, Mrs McCann writes of her fear that her daughter was kidnapped by a paedophile and admits that she was at one time consumed by the mental image of her eldest child being 'defiled' by her abductor.
 

Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room.

The incidents are said to have occurred within a one-hour drive of Praia da Luz in the three years before Madeleine, then aged three, went missing on May 3rd 2007. She believes the Portuguese police failed to investigate any possible links between the cases and the disappearance of Madeleine.
 

"It broke my heart to read the terrible accounts of these devastated parents and the experiences of their poor children," writes Mrs mcCann, adding: "What these cases do demonstrate, however, is that British tourists in holiday accommodation were being targeted... It is so hard not to scream from the rooftops about how these crimes appear to have been brushed under the carpet."
 
Mrs McCann, 43, says she was consumed by the fear her child was being abused in the days after she went missing. She writes: "When she was first stolen, paedophiles were all we could think about, and it ate away at us. The idea of a monster like this touching my daughter, stroking her, defiling her perfect little body, just killed me over and over again....
 
"I would lie in bed, hating the person who had done this to us – the person who had taken away our little girl and terrified her. I hated him. I wanted to kill him."
 
In an interview published yesterday in The Sun newspaper to coincide with the book's publication on May 12th - on what would be Madeleine's 8th birthday - the McCanns talked candidly of how their own relationship had suffered in the aftermath of the kidnapping. Mr McCann, 42, who has gone back to work as a heart consultant at a teaching hospital, told the sun: "There were times when I thought she would never get back to being the woman I love.
 
"Early on I could understand why something like this destroys relationships. It's been so hard to keep your own head above water at times. Now we're more or less on an even keel."
 
Mrs McCann said: "I didn't know if I would ever get back to the person I was. I was conscious about the effect this had on Gerry. He needed me to be together and I just couldn't get myself there."
 
The book was written by Mrs McCann, who has never returned to work as a GP, in about nine months and is expected to raise £1 million for the fund established by the couple to find their child. The sum will pay for private detectives to continue their search for about another two years. She hopes it will also trigger further information for their detectives to follow up as it inevitably garners publicity around the world.
 
Even before publication, the book tops the Amazon best-seller list based on pre-orders. In Madeleine, Mrs McCann tells of the couple's guilt at leaving Madeleine and their twins Sean and Amelie unattended in their apartment while they ate supper with friends about 100 yards away.
 
In the most detailed account of what happened on the night the child went missing, Mrs McCann tells of how she frantically searched for the child on discovering Madeleine was no longer asleep in her bed. She writes of the panic that took hold and how her 'heart lurched' on discovering a window in the child's bedroom was opened. She ran out of the apartment in the direction of the table where her husband and friends were eating and began screaming: "Madeleine's gone. Someone's taken her."
 
Mrs McCann also admits to turning 'amateur detective' during a return visit to the resort, getting a friend to re-enact the sighting of a man seen carrying a child, believed to be madeleine, as he walked away from the apartment on the night the little girl vanished.
 
She reveals she has had three similar dreams of getting her daughter back. "She says there, I'm holding her, I'm so happy. And then I wake up. And of course she's not there. The pain is crippling," she admitted.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500353/Kate-McCann-accuses-Algarve-police-of-sex-abuse-cover-up.html
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 05, 2014, 06:16:20 PM
A myth. Unless you produce neutral sources (not Mrs McCann)

Not a myth Anne, unless you think Kate would be daft enough to invent those families and say in her book that the reports came from the files, when they didn't.     How do you think a big fat lie like that would go down with the UK police,  the British Consul and the GNR - all of whom would know she was lying her head off  - if none of that had ever happened. 

Trying to claim it is a myth is just too silly for words imo.



Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 06:19:28 PM
What's your analysis ?

Similar to yours when you said just above:

Quote from: AnneGuedes on Today at 05:11:33 PM

    This is manipulation of public opinion.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:27:20 PM
Not a myth Anne, unless you think Kate would be daft enough to invent those families and say in her book that the reports came from the files, when they didn't.     How do you think a big fat lie like that would go down with the UK police,  the British Consul and the GNR - all of whom would know she was lying her head off  - if none of that had ever happened. 

Trying to claim it is a myth is just too silly for words imo.
Mrs McCann produced no evidence for those alleged facts, revealing a total lack of rigour that doesn't matter for you, a believer, but matters for those who don't believe and want to understand.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:32:24 PM

Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry, both of them doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were first warned of an alarming number of cases in the Algarve by Bill Henderson, the British consul in the region. He told the McCanns shortly after the abduction that there had been "several cases of men getting into bed with children". When police made public their files on the case in the summer of 2008, Mrs McCann discovered five cases of British children being sexually abused in their beds while on holiday and while their parents slept in another room. [/color]

Double hearsay, a consul who doesn't advise to go to the police and a lie about what is in the PJ files.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:36:09 PM
Similar to yours when you said just above:

Quote from: AnneGuedes on Today at 05:11:33 PM

    This is manipulation of public opinion.
Then asking why for asking ?
Do you feel manipulated ? I don't.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 05, 2014, 06:43:22 PM
Then asking why for asking ?
Do you feel manipulated ? I don't.

Propaganda isn't intended for those who can recognise it, is it?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
Propaganda isn't intended for those who can recognise it, is it?
Are you suggesting a bipartition of society, the knowledge of the elite a,nd the ignorance of the people ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 05, 2014, 08:04:40 PM
Are you suggesting a bipartition of society, the knowledge of the elite a,nd the ignorance of the people ?

Isnt that exactly what happened in Casa pia
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: drummer on March 05, 2014, 09:13:33 PM
Anne you seem to believe that any news from Portugal which shows the country  in a bad light is a myth or a lie. When I hear of any crimes / corruption  etc uncovered in my own country I am thankful for the agencies who have taken the time to investigate/prosecute. I'm sure most people feel the same.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 10:12:13 PM
Does anyne know  if the Mccanns got the unreleased parts of the files relating to sex offenders?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 10:21:49 PM
11 November 2013

‘Maddie’ weirdo targeted our kids

Scruff spotted by second Brit

By RYAN PARRY, GARY O’SHEA & JAMES BEAL

A SCRUFFY long-haired man tried to lure away a small child in Portugal just WEEKS before Madeleine McCann was kidnapped, a witness claims.

He approached a British holidaymaker saying he was a charity collector — while a sinister accomplice watched from a short distance away.

Cops probing Madeleine’s 2007 disappearance now believe the man — also described by TWO other witnesses and similar to police images issued in 2008 — may be key to their investigation.

The Brit holidaymaker, who asked not to be named, said the drugged-up Portuguese man approached her and her five-year-old daughter in Vilamoura — 30 miles from where Madeleine was taken.

She said: “I knew there was something wrong with him, I just wanted to get away from him.

“I felt he was trying to usher us down a cobbled street.

“I could see his accomplice sitting a way away watching us. He was pretending that he wasn’t with the other guy, I could tell.”

The woman, from the North of England, later reported the incident to private detectives hired by Madeleine’s family.

They revealed a villa owner had reported the same men trying to lure away his daughter in Vilamoura.

His sighting came a month before Madeleine was snatched from her Praia da Luz holiday apartment on May 3, 2007.

And The Sun has learned a THIRD witness has been quizzed three times by British detectives over her account of seeing a similar man.

Gran Gail Cooper saw a weirdo on the beach in Praia da Luz staring at a blond boy two days before Madeleine vanished.

The same man later knocked on her door collecting money for charity “for an orphanage”.

Gail, 56, of Newark, Notts, saw the oddball a third time lurking behind kids from a holiday complex.

She said: “He was very intimidating at my door. He kept waving his hands and staring. My grandchildren were in the pool. I just wanted him to go.

“It wasn’t until later that I made the connection to Maddie.”

Last month cops made a Crimewatch appeal to trace bogus charity workers seen around Praia da Luz.

One theory is that Madeleine was taken by an organised crime gang who “cased” her apartment in the days before.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5254957/maddie-weirdo-targeted-children-portugal.html
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 10:25:57 PM
WS I think I can count at least six of these types of stories that have all suddenly been published by the papers for a few months now and  nearly seven yrs later, not a peep at any time beforehand.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 10:28:39 PM
Does anyne know  if the Mccanns got the unreleased parts of the files relating to sex offenders?
From the Portuguese they got the same as those who asked for the files got.
From the LC, they got back what they in fact had given them.
What they have, and we don't, is CRG, Metodo3, Halligen and Edgar.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 10:36:48 PM
WS I think I can count at least six of these types of stories that have all suddenly been published by the papers for a few months now and  nearly seven yrs later, not a peep at any time beforehand.

"The woman, from the North of England, later reported the incident to private detectives hired by Madeleine’s family."

Didn't report it to the cops then?




Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 10:37:03 PM
From the Portuguese they got the same as those who asked for the files got.
From the LC, they got back what they in fact had given them.
What they have, and we don't, is CRG, Metodo3, Halligen and Edgar.

So this info wasnt in the files as suggested by that newspaper article but somehow found out between the  British consul and other agencies? Edgar also stated in one  article he found some of the info in the files though.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 10:39:23 PM
"The woman, from the North of England, later reported the incident to private detectives hired by Madeleine’s family."

Didn't report it to the cops then?

No ones reported on it because they didnt see any link I suppose

Now its a flurry

eta

Alot of these people and others reportedly went straight to the madeleine campaign instead of police which I find odd myself
Will we be hearing of attempted abductions ten yrs down the line too? or sightings? made in 2007/2008??
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 05, 2014, 10:54:20 PM
This is from Kate's book - these cases are in the FILES - so it means the info collected by PJ.. it cannot be a myth

Quote
One of the most concerning and upsetting piece of information to emerge quite early ( when they started reading the files) was the record of sexual crimes against the children in  the Algarve. This discovery made me feel phisically sick. I read about five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept another room. In three further incidents, children encountered an intruder in their bedrooms, who was presumably disturbed before he had the chance to carry out assault. I guess these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine's abduction, had told me about.
These incidents had occurred within an hour drive of PDL and over the three years prior to Madeleine's disappearance. The PJ never mentioned any of them to us. In fact, I gather from the files, some of them hadn't even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported..

So there are 8 ( eight) cases in the files.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 10:58:16 PM
Were any of the victims 3?

if not why make a link at all
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 10:59:36 PM
This is from Kate's book - these cases are in the FILES - so it means the info collected by PJ.. it cannot be a myth

In fact, I gather from the files, some of them hadn't even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported..

Probably because they didn't report them at the time they allegedly occured.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 05, 2014, 11:08:06 PM
If Madeline's disappearance was at the hands of an unknown abductor,  then he succeeded so spectacularly I would expect a traceable pattern of repeat crimes across the Algarve over the last 7 years.

Hovering over cribs doesn't count as clearly it was NOT a succesful abduction.

In fact I sounds more like a drunk wandering into the wrong room...he was possibly more startled by the sudden appearance of the baby, than the baby was of him.

So - where ARE the repeat crimes?

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 05, 2014, 11:08:46 PM
This is from Kate's book - these cases are in the FILES - so it means the info collected by PJ.. it cannot be a myth

So there are 8 ( eight) cases in the files.

There you go again, KMs book is not a defacto truth source, we know certain things have been misrepresented in it, so its stupid to take every word as gospel, but you carry on

Good evening though for the night!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 05, 2014, 11:10:58 PM
In fact, I gather from the files, some of them hadn't even been recorded by the authorities at the time they were reported..

Probably because they didn't report them at the time they allegedly occured.

If you read Kate's book she goes on about one mother of the victims threatening to sue PJ about the incident...

I can copy it for you, I've got the book.

Kate cannot name these victims for legal reason but it seems the McCanns got a different version of files, the bigger version to the one that was published online.

In other words, what was published is not ALL!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
So this info wasnt in the files as suggested by that newspaper article but somehow found out between the  British consul and other agencies? Edgar also stated in one  article he found some of the info in the files though.
Edgar had no especial access to the files. He might have gathered rumours, that's different.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 05, 2014, 11:14:33 PM
Were any of the victims 3?

if not why make a link at all

Good point Red. Without the official documents this might be a Brass Eye-like definition of children: "anyone under 30".
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:18:23 PM
The McCanns had the files that are on Internet, the same, no more, no less.
She can't say the truth about what she allegedly found in the files. She doesn't say the truth about discovering in the files that the reception lady wrote on a book that the kids were left alone. The register book doesn't bear such note and the statement of that lady doesn't say so.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 05, 2014, 11:21:16 PM
Kate said

Quote
I cried for hours after reading a letter of complaint from ne mother to the GNR regarding the sexul abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities. The final line in paricular has haunted me ever since: "It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or the interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice...Furthermore it could all have been so much worse...indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he is not stopped now " Six months later our beloved Madeleine was grabbed from her bed

She goes on saying that of course this is not proof that it is related to Madeleine because she doesn't know who took her daughter but there was a proof that the British holiday makers in their apartments were targeted.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 11:23:22 PM
Good point Red. Without the official documents this might be a Brass Eye-like definition of children: "anyone under 30".

 ?{)(**

"Today the number of children having sex with adults is beyond belief, if you define a child as anyone under 30, the figure is over 86%"
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 05, 2014, 11:25:19 PM
Kate said

>@@(*&) Letter of complaint? Did the police put it on their website then?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 05, 2014, 11:26:57 PM
The McCanns had the files that are on Internet, the same, no more, no less.
She can't say the truth about what she allegedly found in the files. She doesn't say the truth about discovering in the files that the reception lady wrote on a book that the kids were left alone. The register book doesn't bear such note and the statement of that lady doesn't say so.

The note probably got stuck to the night creche records.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:29:48 PM
The note probably got stuck to the night creche records.
There's a vague note, but not in the files.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 05, 2014, 11:31:39 PM
The McCanns had the files that are on Internet, the same, no more, no less.
She can't say the truth about what she allegedly found in the files. She doesn't say the truth about discovering in the files that the reception lady wrote on a book that the kids were left alone. The register book doesn't bear such note and the statement of that lady doesn't say so.

She did write this. She said she found it in Rebelo's notes.

Quote
It was here that I found the receptionist's note in the Ocean Club staff message book  explaining that we wanted to book the Tapas restaurant for the rest of the week because we were leaving our children alone in our apartments. I was dismayed. This was a glaring grren light to a child taker - and yet no mention is made of itt in files until December 2007. December 2007! Seven months after Madeleine's abduction! I could only conclude that its relevance hadn't been appreciated by the police.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:36:49 PM
This is a lie. There's nothing in the files. It has been looked for by many translators.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 05, 2014, 11:42:09 PM
What is the relevance of the note Kate? She doesn't tell us.

Who needed a note to tell them what those parents were doing?

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 05, 2014, 11:46:03 PM
What is the relevance of the note Kate? She doesn't tell us.

Who needed a note to tell them what those parents were doing?

Its a thinly veiled attempt to imply the OC staff were to blame.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 05, 2014, 11:47:29 PM
This is a lie. There's nothing in the files. It has been looked for by many translators.

Ansd where is the proof that you've seen the same files as the McCanns ones, that their files are not enriched with some more data which was not published???????

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:48:52 PM
Its a thinly veiled attempt to imply the OC staff were to blame.
Just spreading doubts everywhere she can, not even thinking that some people (not many for sure) have read all the files.
In this particular case she might have interpreted something that is not in the files, but in GA's book.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 05, 2014, 11:49:48 PM
The Law is the same for all in democratic countries.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 12:03:20 AM
Just spreading doubts everywhere she can, not even thinking that some people (not many for sure) have read all the files.
In this particular case she might have interpreted something that is not in the files, but in GA's book.

You do understand that what you call 'all' might not be 'all'?


We know for fact the SY has removed their registered peados deatails..and god know what else.. if these were British children then their names could not have been mentioned on the internet? Or they could?

In addition we have statements in the newspapers, from the parents who reported it to the papers..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 06, 2014, 12:50:21 AM
You do understand that what you call 'all' might not be 'all'?


We know for fact the SY has removed their registered peados deatails..and god know what else.. if these were British children then their names could not have been mentioned on the internet? Or they could?

In addition we have statements in the newspapers, from the parents who reported it to the papers..

I think it's pretty obvious Vixte that the statements from the families Kate read about in the files and wrote about in her book - would not be accessible to the general public because they involved sexual assaults on children.

We can only speculate as to how the statements were passed to Kate - but I'm sure it can only have been with the permission of the parents involved - one way or another. 

Anyone who thinks that Kate would make up eight non-existent families, 8 statements, and a letter from one of those parents and claim they were in the official files if they didn't exist -  isn't thinking things through properly  imo - and that's putting it mildly.





Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 01:12:05 AM
Mrs McCann isn't suspected of being mythomaniac, just of not saying the truth, something she admitted being capable of if it served her agenda.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 06, 2014, 01:26:17 AM
I think it's pretty obvious Vixte that the statements from the families Kate read about in the files and wrote about in her book - would not be accessible to the general public because they involved sexual assaults on children.

We can only speculate as to how the statements were passed to Kate - but I'm sure it can only have been with the permission of the parents involved - one way or another. 

Anyone who thinks that Kate would make up eight non-existent families, 8 statements, and a letter from one of those parents and claim they were in the official files if they didn't exist -  isn't thinking things through properly  imo - and that's putting it mildly.

Make up? So old-fashioned Benice.

Doubtless there will be some truth, and some embellishment.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 06, 2014, 02:23:34 AM
I think it's pretty obvious Vixte that the statements from the families Kate read about in the files and wrote about in her book - would not be accessible to the general public because they involved sexual assaults on children.

We can only speculate as to how the statements were passed to Kate - but I'm sure it can only have been with the permission of the parents involved - one way or another. 

Anyone who thinks that Kate would make up eight non-existent families, 8 statements, and a letter from one of those parents and claim they were in the official files if they didn't exist -  isn't thinking things through properly  imo - and that's putting it mildly.

No of course not!

Kate McCann is THE ONLY individual ever in existence, who is so saintly and morally superior, she is Totally Incapable of Deception.

How dare we utter doubt of this Paragon of Caring Motherhood?

Shame on us!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 06, 2014, 08:38:37 AM
No of course not!

Kate McCann is THE ONLY individual ever in existence, who is so saintly and morally superior, she is Totally Incapable of Deception.

How dare we utter doubt of this Paragon of Caring Motherhood?

Shame on us!


So do you think Kate invented these 8 families who she claims in her book came forward to the UK police - or not then?

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 06, 2014, 08:46:34 AM
No of course not!

Kate McCann is THE ONLY individual ever in existence, who is so saintly and morally superior, she is Totally Incapable of Deception.

How dare we utter doubt of this Paragon of Caring Motherhood?

Shame on us!

Indeed.

The paragon of virtue who went out to wine and dine, and leave her children totally unprotected.

A parent whom I would never trust to look after any children.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 09:48:05 AM
This topic is not about the personality of Kate McCann.

IMO she is not in a position to lie if openly in a book about content that is not in files. She's got copies. Given to her by a solicitor.

The translation cost them 100 000 pounds.

Someone very lucky cashed on Madeleine again...
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 06, 2014, 09:55:21 AM
A clear, relative percentage set of figures to show child abductions in the UK and Portugal would be useful on this thread.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 06, 2014, 10:25:06 AM
The McCanns had the files that are on Internet, the same, no more, no less.
She can't say the truth about what she allegedly found in the files. She doesn't say the truth about discovering in the files that the reception lady wrote on a book that the kids were left alone. The register book doesn't bear such note and the statement of that lady doesn't say so.



Anne, acording to Dr Amaral this note does exist...        ...maybe he is lying too?

Quote from: Amaral book page 11
During the parents' dinner, the children again sleep alone.  A restaurant employee notes on the reception register that certain members of the group get up in turn to go to make sure they are OK.

Just because something isn't in the 'files', doesn't mean it didn't exist.
   
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 06, 2014, 10:26:09 AM
A clear, relative percentage set of figures to show child abductions in the UK and Portugal would be useful on this thread.

Which is roughly where we came in on page 2!  8(>((
You wouldn't want accurate figures getting in the way of a good bit of prestidigitation would you?
Anyway by definition anything emanating from Portugal is as bent as a nine bob note and can't be relied upon. I know that I read it on this site.
There are plenty of legs left in this Stephen. Jeez!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 06, 2014, 10:36:06 AM
Clearly there had been several attempts to snatch a child culminating in what many believe was the abduction of Madeleine.  Unfortunately, we may never know if they are connected.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:18:49 AM


Anne, acording to Dr Amaral this note does exist...        ...maybe he is lying too?

Just because something isn't in the 'files', doesn't mean it didn't exist.
 
I said it above, John, this is the only possible source for Mrs McCann's assumption (whether she read Mr Amaral's book in a "professional" translation as suggested at the trial or not). But it's not in the files and Mrs McCann says it is.
It's the same concerning the alleged predators found in children's beds, this is not in the files and she says it is.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:28:30 AM
Clearly there had been several attempts to snatch a child culminating in what many believe was the abduction of Madeleine.  Unfortunately, we may never know if they are connected.
It is not clear at all, will this rumour bring many guests to your site ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 06, 2014, 11:29:12 AM
Are there two sets of files - one available to everyone and the other available only to a select few, other than the judiciary?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 11:32:11 AM
It is not clear at all, will this rumour bring many guests to your site ?

Yes, everyone is going to see it and then will have it in their mind when going on holiday to Algarve..it will break the myths of 'a safe heaven for children' and cause the price drops .. so some people who own 10 apartments will earn less.. but it is worth it because the offender might finally get caught...
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:32:37 AM

So do you think Kate invented these 8 families who she claims in her book came forward to the UK police - or not then?
We don't know where those families come from, what we know is that Mrs McCann invented it was in the PJ files.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 11:34:29 AM
We don't know where those families come from, what we know is that Mrs McCann invented it was in the PJ files.

I don't know what you know but you cannot say 'we' because what I know is that it is in the files..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:35:50 AM
Are there two sets of files - one available to everyone and the other available only to a select few, other than the judiciary?
Of course not, we live in democracies. I'm not sure that the McCanns would have a look at the files that later were suppressed on British request, had they been assistants in the process.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 06, 2014, 11:41:02 AM
Are there two sets of files - one available to everyone and the other available only to a select few, other than the judiciary?

This certainly seems to be implied. The ones released to the public and the ones retained by the judiciary containing details that could not be released to the public. The sniff I am picking up is that the McCanns are so important that the Portuguese were compelled to release the other files to them. Oh what! tell it to the marines the sailors will not believe it.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 06, 2014, 11:42:18 AM
Of course not, we live in democracies. I'm not sure that the McCanns would have a look at the files that later were suppressed on British request, had they been assistants in the process.

In that case, why should Mrs McCann say that this information was in the files if it isn't?
If she is mistaken about this, what else in her book might she be mistaken about?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 11:59:11 AM
Quote
Some information is thought to have been edited out, including the identities of any convicted or suspected paedophiles living in the Algarve at the time Madeleine disappeared.http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/05/madeleinemccann.portugal[/i]
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 06, 2014, 01:30:14 PM
Yes, everyone is going to see it and then will have it in their mind when going on holiday to Algarve..it will break the myths of 'a safe heaven for children' and cause the price drops .. so some people who own 10 apartments will earn less.. but it is worth it because the offender might finally get caught...
]

So where exactly is the concise and verifiable evidence of abduction ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 02:16:29 PM

For now on, the official myth on this forum is that in the Algarve the police and the paedophiles might go happily hand in hand. Bravo !

No, IMO in past the police DID NOT BELIEVE there were peadophilles there.. they were in denial, just like few of you in here.

From what I am seeing now, by occasionally checking and following the PT news, now the PJ is VERY engaged on the subject and the things have changed!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 06, 2014, 02:23:46 PM
Perhaps at the time, they just didn't share the British obsession with paedoplilia.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 02:32:44 PM
Perhaps at the time, they just didn't share the British obsession with paedoplilia.
Or rather the British kept warm their obsession with paedophilia, waiting for a British child's abduction from bed... 
That would explain Mr McCann's claiming on the phone, unfortunately not to the police, that paedophiles had taken his daughter.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 02:38:06 PM
Or rather the British kept warm their obsession with paedophilia, waiting for a British child's abduction from bed... 
That would explain Mr McCann's claiming on the phone, unfortunately not to the police, that paedophiles had taken his daughter.

it is a fact that the british media have created fear over the whole population about something that will never happen to the vast vast majority of the population....its called control and fear mongering
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 06, 2014, 02:42:14 PM
it is a fact that the british media have created fear over the whole population about something that will never happen to the vast vast majority of the population....its called control and fear mongering

Not just the media, charities too. Competing charities, so it's business rivalry now too.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 02:45:06 PM
Not just the media, charities too. Competing charities, so it's business rivalry now too.

Bloody hell you must have been reading my mind

I went into the bank today and there was badges to buy for childline  in schools for abuse!

They are  poisoning our kids minds too
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 06, 2014, 02:45:43 PM
oh do shut up, no one has ever said no paedophile was ever in any near distance of PDL, but some of us are lucid and real and dont accept YOUR and the SUN's version  that PDL and surrounding  areas were AWASH with them...talk about drama queen lies and tactics

He is blatantly one of the family activists, the tired old 'paedo's what did it' propaganda is easily recognised.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 06, 2014, 03:04:17 PM
"Keep away from the funny eyed guy WS" -- Lori Campbell.

 @)(++(*

That was by 'DJ Bob Hoskins Going Mental In A Dustbin'

I prefer 'Stay Away From Me' by American chart toppers 'Smash My Brothers Face In'
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 06, 2014, 03:10:57 PM
it is a fact that the british media have created fear over the whole population about something that will never happen to the vast vast majority of the population....its called control and fear mongering


IMO it was all started by the manufacturers of people carriers, four tracks and the proprietors of gymnasia.
Woman gets the kids up chucks them in the back of a Chelsea tractor drives 3/4 mile to school dumps them off then drives another 3/4 mile to a gym that costs £lots per year walks 1 1/2 miles on a tread mill then drives home. See!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 05:29:47 PM
it is a fact that the british media have created fear over the whole population about something that will never happen to the vast vast majority of the population....its called control and fear mongering

Does this between lines mean; Ok..yes.. they are there but down n PT they are as good as angels.. like an owner of a dog would tell..  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 06, 2014, 05:37:03 PM
Does this between lines mean; OK..yes.. they are there but down n PT they are as good as angels.. like an owner of a dog would tell..  @)(++(*

My interpretation was this...

'Paedophiles exist, therefore Maddie was abducted by one'

Is an incredibly weak argument for abduction.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 06, 2014, 05:45:58 PM
Which is roughly where we came in on page 2!  8(>((
You wouldn't want accurate figures getting in the way of a good bit of prestidigitation would you?
Anyway by definition anything emanating from Portugal is as bent as a nine bob note and can't be relied upon. I know that I read it on this site.
There are plenty of legs left in this Stephen. Jeez!

*sigh*


John, since you started the thread, could you possibly supply the info requested on page 2 so we know whether we're discussing something statistically significant?

I did have a look myself yesterday. I found the population size of England and Wales, the number of attempted and successful abductions (I should have looked for disappearances) and the population size of Portugal, but I couldn't find any statistics for crime. It's probably on the net, just not in English.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 06, 2014, 05:55:10 PM
Does this between lines mean; Ok..yes.. they are there but down n PT they are as good as angels.. like an owner of a dog would tell..  @)(++(*

Sadly Vixte I think Red's point whooshed over your head.

Hype don't the believe. Rearrange 8(0(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 07:35:08 PM
*sigh*


John, since you started the thread, could you possibly supply the info requested on page 2 so we know whether we're discussing something statistically significant?

I did have a look myself yesterday. I found the population size of England and Wales, the number of attempted and successful abductions (I should have looked for disappearances) and the population size of Portugal, but I couldn't find any statistics for crime. It's probably on the net, just not in English.
The missing person (all ages mixed up) are listed on the PJ site.
86 persons, most of them seniores. Among whom the minor (when missing)
Madeleine MCCann (2007)
A girl with 3 possible identities and who was 6 when she disappeared (2005)
A girl who was 2 when she disappeared (2004)
A boy who was 13 when he disappeared (1999)
A boy who was 16 when he disappeared (1998)
A boy who was 11 when he disappeared (1998)
A girl who was 6 when she disappeared (1994)
A boy who was 14 when he disappeared (1991)
A boy who was 16 when he disappeared (1990)

A Spanish boy (no age) (disappeared from Gran Canaria in 2007) and a German boy (no age) (disappeared in 2007 from ?) are listed (sightings)

https://www.policiajudiciaria.pt/PortalWeb/page/%7BAA001182-B622-459A-BF72-FD6EDD83C76F%7D/?portletLabel=T2608720801203616720906&actionSubmitted=navegacaoPessoasDesaparecidas&portletParameter=pessoasDesaparecidas&portletNav=1 (https://www.policiajudiciaria.pt/PortalWeb/page/%7BAA001182-B622-459A-BF72-FD6EDD83C76F%7D/?portletLabel=T2608720801203616720906&actionSubmitted=navegacaoPessoasDesaparecidas&portletParameter=pessoasDesaparecidas&portletNav=1)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Anna on March 06, 2014, 07:36:08 PM
*sigh*


John, since you started the thread, could you possibly supply the info requested on page 2 so we know whether we're discussing something statistically significant?

I did have a look myself yesterday. I found the population size of England and Wales, the number of attempted and successful abductions (I should have looked for disappearances) and the population size of Portugal, but I couldn't find any statistics for crime. It's probably on the net, just not in English.

This might help, but 2010 so out of date

http://snippits-and-slappits.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/portugal-pedophilia-elite-business-as.html
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 06, 2014, 08:00:17 PM
It is not clear at all, will this rumour bring many guests to your site ?

Interesting that you mention the subject of rumours.

Did I miss your reply to my question on this thread?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3526.msg134044#msg134044
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3526.msg134708#msg134708
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 08:04:51 PM
Does this between lines mean; Ok..yes.. they are there but down n PT they are as good as angels.. like an owner of a dog would tell..  @)(++(*

We really need a "rolly eyes" emoticon on this board!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 06, 2014, 08:10:13 PM
The missing person (all ages mixed up) are listed on the PJ site.
86 persons, most of them seniores. Among whom the minor (when missing)
Madeleine MCCann (2007)
A girl with 3 possible identities and who was 6 when she disappeared (2005)
A girl who was 2 when she disappeared (2004)
A boy who was 13 when he disappeared (1999)
A boy who was 16 when he disappeared (1998)
A boy who was 11 when he disappeared (1998)
A girl who was 6 when she disappeared (1994)
A boy who was 14 when he disappeared (1991)
A boy who was 16 when he disappeared (1990)

A Spanish boy (no age) (disappeared from Gran Canaria in 2007) and a German boy (no age) (disappeared in 2007 from ?) are listed (sightings)

https://www.policiajudiciaria.pt/PortalWeb/page/%7BAA001182-B622-459A-BF72-FD6EDD83C76F%7D/?portletLabel=T2608720801203616720906&actionSubmitted=navegacaoPessoasDesaparecidas&portletParameter=pessoasDesaparecidas&portletNav=1 (https://www.policiajudiciaria.pt/PortalWeb/page/%7BAA001182-B622-459A-BF72-FD6EDD83C76F%7D/?portletLabel=T2608720801203616720906&actionSubmitted=navegacaoPessoasDesaparecidas&portletParameter=pessoasDesaparecidas&portletNav=1)

Thank you Anne. So is that 86 missing persons in the whole of Portugal?


If so:

HUh, I wasn't expecting that....

In Britain 0.5 % of the population is missing, in Portugal 7.9% of the population is missing.

I think someone needs to check my figures.....


http://www.indexmundi.com/portugal/demographics_profile.html

Portuguese population = 10,799,270

Plus Anne's figure of 86 missing people

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-uk--england-and-wales--scotland-and-northern-ireland/mid-2001-to-mid-2010-revised/index.html

population of the UK was estimated to be 62.8 million in mid-2010,

http://missingpersons.police.uk/en/pressroom/information-on-the-number-of-people-who-go-missing

313,000 missing persons incidents were recorded by police in Britain in 2011/12,


Ah, I see where I might have gone wrong.... 313,000 people were reported missing in one year, not there are 313,000 missing people in the UK...


Anne, is that figure of 86 for one year, or is it the number of currently missing people?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 08:13:42 PM
Interesting that you mention the subject of rumours.

Did I miss your reply to my question on this thread?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3526.msg134044#msg134044
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3526.msg134708#msg134708
Please be more explicit.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Montclair on March 06, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
I don't know what you know but you cannot say 'we' because what I know is that it is in the files..

If it is in the files then please provide the reference. AFAIK, there is nothing in the police files about these so called abduction or abuse attempts on British children in the Algarve. As I live in one of the areas mentioned, I am sure that everyone and his brother would know about these break-ins, especially in the tourism business. Everyone talks in the Algarve and nothing escapes housekeepers or cleaning ladies attention and they talk.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 08:21:22 PM
Thank you Anne. So is that 86 missing persons in the whole of Portugal?


If so:

HUh, I wasn't expecting that....

In Britain 0.5 % of the population is missing, in Portugal 7.9% of the population is missing.

I think someone needs to check my figures.....


http://www.indexmundi.com/portugal/demographics_profile.html

Portuguese population = 10,799,270

Plus Anne's figure of 86 missing people

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-uk--england-and-wales--scotland-and-northern-ireland/mid-2001-to-mid-2010-revised/index.html

population of the UK was estimated to be 62.8 million in mid-2010,

http://missingpersons.police.uk/en/pressroom/information-on-the-number-of-people-who-go-missing

313,000 missing persons incidents were recorded by police in Britain in 2011/12,


Ah, I see where I might have gone wrong.... 313,000 people were reported missing in one year, not there are 313,000 missing people in the UK...


Anne, is that figure of 86 for one year, or is it the number of currently missing people?
It might be 85 (I counted the German boy, it was just a sighting) people missing since missing people are listed.
Take into account the minor ones only : 9 minor disappeared in 24 years, one of whom is British and the girl with 3 identities is (I think) African.
None of them was proved abducted and none of them but one disappeared from bed.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Montclair on March 06, 2014, 08:29:01 PM
Thank you Anne. So is that 86 missing persons in the whole of Portugal?


If so:

HUh, I wasn't expecting that....

In Britain 0.5 % of the population is missing, in Portugal 7.9% of the population is missing.

I think someone needs to check my figures.....


http://www.indexmundi.com/portugal/demographics_profile.html

Portuguese population = 10,799,270

Plus Anne's figure of 86 missing people

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-uk--england-and-wales--scotland-and-northern-ireland/mid-2001-to-mid-2010-revised/index.html

population of the UK was estimated to be 62.8 million in mid-2010,

http://missingpersons.police.uk/en/pressroom/information-on-the-number-of-people-who-go-missing

313,000 missing persons incidents were recorded by police in Britain in 2011/12,


Ah, I see where I might have gone wrong.... 313,000 people were reported missing in one year, not there are 313,000 missing people in the UK...


Anne, is that figure of 86 for one year, or is it the number of currently missing people?

I think that you better brush up on your maths. 7.9% of 10,799,270 comes to 853,142. I don't believe that there are that many people missing in Portugal. The number of missing people actually represents 0.0000077% of the population.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 06, 2014, 09:14:18 PM
This might help, but 2010 so out of date

http://snippits-and-slappits.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/portugal-pedophilia-elite-business-as.html

...and the article praises David Icke fairly early on... 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 09:22:41 PM
...and the article praises David Icke fairly early on... 8-)(--)

Jezus H Christ, there should be a law against posting links like that!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 06, 2014, 09:26:21 PM
"xxxxxxx is a paedophiles' paradise," said Mr xxxxx, now a lawyer campaigning on behalf of the xxxxx victims. "If all the names come out, this will be an earthquake in xxxxx. There is a massive, sophisticated network at play here ~ stretching from the government to the judiciary and the police.

A "snippit" from Anna's link with the word "Portugal" removed. Now where else does it remind you of?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 06, 2014, 09:34:29 PM
"xxxxxxx is a paedophiles' paradise," said Mr xxxxx, now a lawyer campaigning on behalf of the xxxxx victims. "If all the names come out, this will be an earthquake in xxxxx. There is a massive, sophisticated network at play here ~ stretching from the government to the judiciary and the police.

A "snippit" from Anna's link with the word "Portugal" removed. Now where else does it remind you of?

You have heard of Casa Pia
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 06, 2014, 09:38:53 PM
You have heard of Casa Pia

Of course! It's the house where Pakistan International Airlines have their offices isn't it?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 06, 2014, 09:43:30 PM
I think that you better brush up on your maths. 7.9% of 10,799,270 comes to 853,142. I don't believe that there are that many people missing in Portugal. The number of missing people actually represents 0.0000077% of the population.

I knew it was wrong, but couldn't for the life of me see where I'd gone wrong!

Thank you for that, the amount of people missing in Portugal per capita is a fraction of those missing in the uk?

I don't suppose someone could get the figures for people reported missing in 2011/2012 in Portugal, so we can compare it against the figures for UK. Taking in to account population of course.


I won't do the maths this time though  8()-000(
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 09:55:30 PM
If it is in the files then please provide the reference. AFAIK, there is nothing in the police files about these so called abduction or abuse attempts on British children in the Algarve. As I live in one of the areas mentioned, I am sure that everyone and his brother would know about these break-ins, especially in the tourism business. Everyone talks in the Algarve and nothing escapes housekeepers or cleaning ladies attention and they talk.

I posted the guardian article which mentioned the files being 'edited' for peado details and other sensitive info and child attacks are sensitive info.. so what we are seeing publicly this is not all..

Kate in her book is saying that she's got the info about 8 cases from the files and she also mentioned the British consul mentioning these to her..

It is too many sources I am afraid.. not everyone is lying!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 10:18:43 PM
Jezus H Christ, there should be a law against posting links like that!
Yes, that's typical CS.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 10:42:26 PM
I knew it was wrong, but couldn't for the life of me see where I'd gone wrong!

Thank you for that, the amount of people missing in Portugal per capita is a fraction of those missing in the uk?

I don't suppose someone could get the figures for people reported missing in 2011/2012 in Portugal, so we can compare it against the figures for UK. Taking in to account population of course.


I won't do the maths this time though  8()-000(
2 years is too small a period of time. 10 years minimum.
Strictly speaking abducted kids should be separated from missing and within abducted the bed ones and public space ones. The age should be taken into account, as well as the number of national vs foreigners.
I wish I were a statistician.
If you select the 2003/2013 ten years, 3 girls disappeared in Portugal, a Guinean one (6), a Portuguese toddler (2) and the British Madeleine (3/4).
The first little girl (very cute child) was born in Guinea Bissau and adopted there. The Guinean adoptive parents took her to Portugal. About one year later she disappeared. The parents said someone took her in charge and went with her to Spain where she died in a car accident.
The second little girl was abducted by her father, a fisherman from the Açores, divorced, around 9pm. He took a taxi, then got a lift from someone who left him somewhere with the baby. Later he went to the police where he found his ex-wife reporting the abduction. He was alone.


Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 10:42:46 PM
You have heard of Casa Pia

Casa Pia didn't only happen in Portugal.
It happened in many countries.
The handling of it in Portugal is what was the problem. Denying it. Brushing under the carpet. That is the problem.

For example, and I read this maybe 4-5 years ago on SIC Portugal TV  - all of the names involved in Casa Pia will not be legally published to public for 25 years.

I am not sure now if this changed but back then that was the case.. the judge has decided to keep the file secret for 25 years! And that is what is wrong! Why not publish it? Why not?

Seems the same psychology is with these 'attacks on children files' - there is a feeling of a big denial.. 'No, it is not happening' kind of thing.. Yes, it is happening and it is happening everywhere and it needs to be stopped!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 06, 2014, 10:48:17 PM
Casa Pia didn't only happen in Portugal.
It happened in many countries.
The handling of it in Portugal is what was the problem. Denying it. Brushing under the carpet. That is the problem.

For example, and I read this maybe 4-5 years ago on SIC Portugal TV  - all of the names involved in Casa Pia will not be legally published to public for 25 years.

I am not sure now if this changed but back then that was the case.. the judge has decided to keep the file secret for 25 years! And that is what is wrong! Why not publish it? Why not?

Seems the same psychology is with these 'attacks on children files' - there is a feeling of a big denial.. 'No, it is not happening' kind of thing.. Yes, it is happening and it is happening everywhere and it needs to be stopped!

Oh so Portugals handling it was different to the equivalent in the UK? get a grip!

Jersey
Wales care home
others
Saville
Etc etc
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 10:51:42 PM
Mrs McCann likely invented the 8 paedophiles found in the 8 beds to denigrate a police she hates, because she could hardly suppose or make people suppose that this kind of sexual assault had occurred to her daughter considering the state of Madeleine's bed.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 10:58:28 PM
Mrs McCann likely invented the 8 paedophiles found in the 8 beds to denigrate a police she hates, because she could hardly suppose or make people suppose that this kind of sexual assault had occurred to her daughter considering the state of Madeleine's bed.

She never invented it. She is quoting the files and quoting the British consul in PT who gave her the same info. ( possibly because the attacks on children were reported to British consulate in PT)

The files were EDITED.

Oh, I now wish I was an investigative journalist and I get a hold of these files. I would publish them straight away. And I now really hope someone will publish them..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 06, 2014, 11:03:47 PM
Casa Pia didn't only happen in Portugal.
It happened in many countries.
The handling of it in Portugal is what was the problem. Denying it. Brushing under the carpet. That is the problem.

For example, and I read this maybe 4-5 years ago on SIC Portugal TV  - all of the names involved in Casa Pia will not be legally published to public for 25 years.

I am not sure now if this changed but back then that was the case.. the judge has decided to keep the file secret for 25 years! And that is what is wrong! Why not publish it? Why not?



Did you know that files from Lord Cullen's enquiry into Dunblane have been sealed  ...  and that they will not be released  for a hundred years  ? 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 11:13:24 PM
Did you know that files from Lord Cullen's enquiry into Dunblane have been sealed  ...  and that they will not be released  for a hundred years  ?

No, this was changed. Only the personal details of dead children ( photos) will not be published..due to distress it can cause..

This is nothing about the people in power being protected..

And I am not saying the the UK is perfect. Today I witnessed a policeman arresting a boy who was I think around 10 and the policeman was really rough and overpowered, he jumped on the boy, lied on the top of him with his whole (huge) weight and handcuffed the boy and then he was parading the boy in handcuffs on the street, when the boy asked what his rights were the policeman just kept quiet, he was in plain clothes and he never showed his badge.. etc etc,, it made me soooooo upset.. I am still shaking.. and I've seen it all with my own eyes..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:14:39 PM
The PJ Files are the property of the MP. They can't be published and their content can't be reproduced.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 06, 2014, 11:20:44 PM
The PJ Files are the property of the MP. They can't be published and their content can't be reproduced.

well, if the express, for example, publishes them what can they do? nothing!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 06, 2014, 11:57:10 PM
Oh so Portugals handling it was different to the equivalent in the UK? get a grip!

Jersey
Wales care home
others
Saville
Etc etc

Also a RC school and seminary in the north of Scotland has been exposed recently as being a hotbed of all kinds of abuse.

Cover ups of all kinds for years.

It is hardly saying anything bad about Portugal in particular to note that there have been abductions or crimes of the above kind, or that there have sometimes been cover ups. These things seem to be endemic everywhere as we have all noted.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 07, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
well, if the express, for example, publishes them what can they do? nothing!

If they published such a story having made it up you'd believe it. Be honest. You want finger-pointing not accuracy.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 12:06:31 AM
Mrs McCann likely invented the 8 paedophiles found in the 8 beds to denigrate a police she hates, because she could hardly suppose or make people suppose that this kind of sexual assault had occurred to her daughter considering the state of Madeleine's bed.

I still don't understand the insistence on the bed being part of the statistic, Anne.

Do you also suggest that  statistics  be provided on the abduction of children who carried around toy cats in order to allow for the possibility of abduction in this case?

Or of children with coloboma of the iris? Or children  of medical doctors?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 12:08:18 AM
Also a RC school and seminary in the north of Scotland has been exposed recently as being a hotbed of all kinds of abuse.

Cover ups of all kinds for years.

It is hardly saying anything bad about Portugal in particular to note that there have been abductions or crimes of the above kind, or that there have sometimes been cover ups. These things seem to be endemic everywhere as we have all noted.

And, of course,  the appalling Kincora Boys' home in Belfast  ...  now  there  was a cover-up 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 12:14:54 AM
I still don't understand the insistence on the bed being part of the statistic, Anne.

Do you also suggest that  statistics  be provided on the abduction of children who carried around toy cats in order to allow for the possibility of abduction in this case?

Or of children with coloboma of the iris? Or children  of medical doctors?

Why do you draw silly analogies in order to dismiss Anne's perfectly logical and reasonable question  ? 

Of  course  the circumstances in which children are snatched is important,  and statistics will necessarily reflect that important distinction

How many children  have been abducted  from their bed  ?   

If the number is statistically low  ...  and I would guess it is  infintesimally low  ...  then that is a significant finding to consider 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 12:39:23 AM
Why do you draw silly analogies in order to dismiss Anne's perfectly logical and reasonable question  ? 

Of  course  the circumstances in which children are snatched is important,  and statistics will necessarily reflect that important distinction

How many children  have been abducted  from their bed  ?   

If the number is statistically low  ...  and I would guess it is  infintesimally low  ...  then that is a significant finding to consider

They are purposely silly.

Insisting  that the word 'bed' be part of any reported abduction is not helping us understand the statistics - or anything else. Circumstances are indeed important, but insisting on a bed being involved is making the criteria too narrow.

Just because there are no European examples that we know of of abduction from a bed does not mean that Madeleine cannot be abducted - but this seems at times  to be being implied.

It is a perversity of logic - hence my 'silly ' comparisons.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
They are purposely silly.

Insisting  that the word 'bed' be part of any reported abduction is not helping us understand the statistics - or anything else. Circumstances are indeed important, but insisting on a bed being involved is making the criteria too narrow.

Just because there are no European examples that we know of of abduction from a bed does not mean that Madeleine cannot be abducted - but this seems at times  to be being implied.

It is a perversity of logic - hence my 'silly ' comparisons.

So statistics of children who were abducted  ,  but NOT  from their beds,  can be presented as relevant to Madeleine McCann 

Whilst statistics of children who  were  abducted from their beds  are  not  necessary because they  are NOT relevant to Madeleine McCann  ?

Pervese logic indeed   
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 07, 2014, 12:50:30 AM
Why do you draw silly analogies in order to dismiss Anne's perfectly logical and reasonable question  ? 

Of  course  the circumstances in which children are snatched is important,  and statistics will necessarily reflect that important distinction

How many children  have been abducted  from their bed  ?   

If the number is statistically low  ...  and I would guess it is  infintesimally low  ...  then that is a significant finding to consider

A perfectly appropriate analogy IMO.       We are being asked to believe that if there  is no a record of another child ever being taken from her bed then it's not possible Madeleine was.    Now that is silly.    What about the little girl taken from her bath?  Are we saying that can't be true because we know of no other identical cases?

What is even sillier IMO is the idea that Kate would be stupid enough to invent 8 families who she claims in her book came forward to the UK police and who she read about in the official files - if in fact all that is a pack of lies.  If anyone can explain why she would do something so suicidal from the point of view of her credibility with the police -  I'd be interested to hear it.   


Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 07, 2014, 01:21:36 AM
A perfectly appropriate analogy IMO.       We are being asked to believe that if there  is no a record of another child ever being taken from her bed then it's not possible Madeleine was.    Now that is silly.    What about the little girl taken from her bath?  Are we saying that can't be true because we know of no other identical cases?

What is even sillier IMO is the idea that Kate would be stupid enough to invent 8 families who she claims in her book came forward to the UK police and who she read about in the official files - if in fact all that is a pack of lies.  If anyone can explain why she would do something so suicidal from the point of view of her credibility with the police -  I'd be interested to hear it.   

Actually,  Benice,  what we are being asked to believe,  on this thread at least,  is that because abductions are  'prevalent'  in Portugal,  it is likely that Madeleine was abducted  too

I'll stop here to  make the point that  'prevalence'   refers to that which is a widespread and common occurance,  so I personally reject the premise of the thread,  which I consider to be groundless 

Anyway,  my personal objections aside,  let's pretend that  abductions  are  widespread and common occurances in Portugal   ...   what statistical   relevance does that have on whether or not Madeleine was abducted   ?

The answer must be none 

(  If it were not then it wouldn't be possible to dismiss the statistical  evidence of no child ever having been abducted from their bed in Portugal  as irrelevant in Madeleine's case   ) 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 01:35:04 AM
  If anyone can explain why she would do something so suicidal from the point of view of her credibility with the police -  I'd be interested to hear it.   
"Suicidal" ! How dramatic !
DCI Redwood said Mrs McCann isn't a suspect, what would she need credibility for ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 03:28:28 AM
So statistics of children who were abducted  ,  but NOT  from their beds,  can be presented as relevant to Madeleine McCann 

Whilst statistics of children who  were  abducted from their beds  are  not  necessary because they  are NOT relevant to Madeleine McCann  ?

Pervese logic indeed

Not what I was saying at all.

What is not logical is to state that because there are no statistics involving a bed, Madeleine cannot have been abducted.

There are several cases around Europe of children who have been abducted from their gardens and from close to their homes and parents, and to suggest that Madeleine cannot possibly be part of that statistic is making  the criteria unnecessarily narrow.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 07, 2014, 07:12:43 AM
Not what I was saying at all.

What is not logical is to state that because there are no statistics involving a bed, Madeleine cannot have been abducted.

There are several cases around Europe of children who have been abducted from their gardens and from close to their homes and parents, and to suggest that Madeleine cannot possibly be part of that statistic is making  the criteria unnecessarily narrow.

Unlikely rather than impossible is the key here. As for too narrow, better narrowing it down than inflating it every which way IMO, after all there is zero evidence of any abduction, and the case is listed officially by the  FCO as a missing person precisely because there is no evidence of abduction

See last para

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foirequest141209b.jpg&target=tlx_picxuro
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Redblossom on March 07, 2014, 07:27:37 AM
Also a RC school and seminary in the north of Scotland has been exposed recently as being a hotbed of all kinds of abuse.

Cover ups of all kinds for years.

It is hardly saying anything bad about Portugal in particular to note that there have been abductions or crimes of the above kind, or that there have sometimes been cover ups. These things seem to be endemic everywhere as we have all noted.
but Vixte directly inferred that the handling of this was different in Portugal.Which is clearly untrue.

Casa Pia didn't only happen in Portugal.
It happened in many countries.
The handling of it in Portugal is what was the problem. Denying it. Brushing under the carpet. That is the problem.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 07, 2014, 08:06:05 AM
If they published such a story having made it up you'd believe it. Be honest. You want finger-pointing not accuracy.

Well, if they find the victims and interview them and then make a link of this to the files then no one can dispute the existence of such cases..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 07, 2014, 08:15:17 AM
So statistics of children who were abducted  ,  but NOT  from their beds,  can be presented as relevant to Madeleine McCann 

Whilst statistics of children who  were  abducted from their beds  are  not  necessary because they  are NOT relevant to Madeleine McCann  ?

Pervese logic indeed

Shouldn't we narrow it down to 3 yr old blonde girls abducted from their beds...in fact why stop there. This shows how stupid it is to try and use statistics to decide what happenned to Maddioe
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 07, 2014, 08:20:46 AM
but Vixte directly inferred that the handling of this was different in Portugal.Which is clearly untrue.

Casa Pia didn't only happen in Portugal.
It happened in many countries.
The handling of it in Portugal is what was the problem. Denying it. Brushing under the carpet. That is the problem.


I get the impression Portugal likes to sweep unpleasant things under the carpet. Burglaries at PDL...that's why I don't believe we can simply compare statistics from one country to another
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 07, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
2 years is too small a period of time. 10 years minimum.
Strictly speaking abducted kids should be separated from missing and within abducted the bed ones and public space ones. The age should be taken into account, as well as the number of national vs foreigners.
I wish I were a statistician.
If you select the 2003/2013 ten years, 3 girls disappeared in Portugal, a Guinean one (6), a Portuguese toddler (2) and the British Madeleine (3/4).
The first little girl (very cute child) was born in Guinea Bissau and adopted there. The Guinean adoptive parents took her to Portugal. About one year later she disappeared. The parents said someone took her in charge and went with her to Spain where she died in a car accident.
The second little girl was abducted by her father, a fisherman from the Açores, divorced, around 9pm. He took a taxi, then got a lift from someone who left him somewhere with the baby. Later he went to the police where he found his ex-wife reporting the abduction. He was alone.

We don't have figures for ten year periods here. We do know that between 250,000 and 300,000 people are reported missing every year in britain and the 65% are under the sage of 18. so taking the lower number of 250,000 x 10 = 25,00000 then - 35% = 8,75000 then - 8,75000 from 25,00000 = 16,25000

but the population of the UK is 6 times that of Portugal, so divide 16, 25000 by 6 = 2,700000

So, have two million, seven hundred thousand people under the age of 18 been reported missing in Portugal in the last ten years?

If the answer is higher than 2,700000 we know that there are more missing children in Portugal than the Uk, taking into account population size.

BTW, I've shown my workings as maths is.....um..... not my strong point, as I demonstrated yesterday. If I've messed up, please point it out.


Also, if anyone can find the figures for under 18's reported missing in Portugal in the last decade, we can answer the OP.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 07, 2014, 10:56:01 AM
It seems that the postulation is that those nasty Portuguese people are hiding things and sweeping things under the carpet for reasons that have yet to be quantified. Precisely what is being swept under the carpet has not been not quantified either. At present it is perm any one from 3. But whatever it is the "sources" of the information on which the postulation is founded are an article in the Grauniad and Kate McCanns book. Neither of which are actually sources at all, merely conduits passing on information that may or may not be accurate each to satisfy their own agenda.
Thus far all that has been established is that there has been at least one case of instutionalised child abuse in Portugal in which officialdom may have been complicit and that some children go missing each year in Portugal. So pretty much like every other country in Europe unless of course one places credence on the "lawless hinterland" of Portugal as defined by Dave Edgar?
Dear old Dave must have been watching Deliverance and Southern Comfort for his ideas.
So not much there then to prove anything. Bearing in mind one is trying to prove or disprove the theory that Madeleine McCann was abducted and it was more likely in Portugal (PdL) than anywhere else.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lace on March 07, 2014, 11:21:19 AM
Just because there are not many examples of children being abducted from their beds does not mean it didn't happen.

Do you think the police sit down and say 'Look this is very rare Madeleine was three,  are there any three year old's who have been abducted from their beds?    No?   Well it couldn't have happened then'.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 04:18:25 PM
We don't have figures for ten year periods here. We do know that between 250,000 and 300,000 people are reported missing every year in britain and the 65% are under the sage of 18. so taking the lower number of 250,000 x 10 = 25,00000 then - 35% = 8,75000 then - 8,75000 from 25,00000 = 16,25000

but the population of the UK is 6 times that of Portugal, so divide 16, 25000 by 6 = 2,700000

So, have two million, seven hundred thousand people under the age of 18 been reported missing in Portugal in the last ten years?

If the answer is higher than 2,700000 we know that there are more missing children in Portugal than the Uk, taking into account population size.

BTW, I've shown my workings as maths is.....um..... not my strong point, as I demonstrated yesterday. If I've messed up, please point it out.


Also, if anyone can find the figures for under 18's reported missing in Portugal in the last decade, we can answer the OP.

I doubt that it would be possible to compare. We had a thread on the issue on here somewhere. I had found a few studies and articles on the subject, but the links are dead.

In the UK, children / young people in institutional care have to be reported missing if they are not present at curfew time (which could presumably include benign incidents of some sulking teenager who didn't turn up for a meal). Sometimes numerous reports are (or were) recorded about the same incident. The majority turn up or are found a few hours or days later. Even if kids turn up a few hours later, they would still be recorded in the "missing" statistics - unless a minimum period of time was specified in a particular study. I've no idea whether Portugal has similar reporting regulations, nor the proportion of children in institutional care.

Various UK reports mention the issue of children who are illegally in the UK and taken into care. Some then disappear into thin air. On the other hand, some who are privately "fostered" by "extended family" and who then disappear, may not be reported as missing at all. There is also the issue of teenagers disappearing to avoid forced marriages. I've no idea whether Portugal faces such issues, nor, if so, to what extent.

Although there may well be runaways in Portugal, the number is quite astounding in the UK:

Children running away and going missing from home or care is a
safeguarding issue. There are no exact figures for the number of children who run
away, but estimates suggest that the figure is in the region of 100,000 missing per year.
It is thought that approximately 25 per cent of children and young
people that go missing are at risk of serious harm.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208528/Statutory_guidance_on_children_who_run_away_or_go_missing_from_home_or_care_consultation_-_final.pdf

Again, I don't know how statistics are compiled in Portugal.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 07:14:30 PM
It seems that the postulation is that those nasty Portuguese people are hiding things and sweeping things under the carpet for reasons that have yet to be quantified. Precisely what is being swept under the carpet has not been not quantified either. At present it is perm any one from 3. But whatever it is the "sources" of the information on which the postulation is founded are an article in the Grauniad and Kate McCanns book. Neither of which are actually sources at all, merely conduits passing on information that may or may not be accurate each to satisfy their own agenda.
Thus far all that has been established is that there has been at least one case of instutionalised child abuse in Portugal in which officialdom may have been complicit and that some children go missing each year in Portugal. So pretty much like every other country in Europe unless of course one places credence on the "lawless hinterland" of Portugal as defined by Dave Edgar?
Dear old Dave must have been watching Deliverance and Southern Comfort for his ideas.
So not much there then to prove anything. Bearing in mind one is trying to prove or disprove the theory that Madeleine McCann was abducted and it was more likely in Portugal (PdL) than anywhere else.
?{)(**
All theories of conspiracy function the same way : if the PJ site lists only 3 missing children in Portugal (one of them, Guinean, supposed to have died in Spain in a car accident and another being the only Portuguese one, the third being British Madeleine), it proves that the Portuguese hide missing children !
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 07:20:03 PM
?{)(**
All theories of conspiracy function the same way : if the PJ site lists only 3 missing children in Portugal (one of them, Guinean, supposed to have died in Spain in a car accident and another being the only Portuguese one, the third being British Madeleine), it proves that the Portuguese hide missing children !

All it shows is the missing people whose descriptions were uploaded and are still on the PJ missing persons' page.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 07:28:06 PM
So statistics of children who were abducted  ,  but NOT  from their beds,  can be presented as relevant to Madeleine McCann 

Whilst statistics of children who  were  abducted from their beds  are  not  necessary because they  are NOT relevant to Madeleine McCann  ?

Pervese logic indeed

Who would say such a thing?

There are no statistics relating to abduction from beds in Europe - so how could they be relevant or irrelevant to Madeleine McCann? Or 'necessary' or not?





Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 07:32:17 PM
Not what I was saying at all.

What is not logical is to state that because there are no statistics involving a bed, Madeleine cannot have been abducted.

There are several cases around Europe of children who have been abducted from their gardens and from close to their homes and parents, and to suggest that Madeleine cannot possibly be part of that statistic is making  the criteria unnecessarily narrow.

That makes sense to me, Sherlock.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 07:36:27 PM
That makes sense to me, Sherlock.

It makes sense to me too, Carana!  ?{)(**

And a pretty simple and straighforward point it is too.

The repeated misquotations and misrepresentations of it, however, seem to be many.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 07, 2014, 07:43:46 PM
How ridiculous.

Even if there had been 100 children "abducted", in bed or out of it, it has ZERO bearing to this case.

The evidence tells us what happened.

Unfortunately for them, Tannerman  represents a massive hole in their story which cannot be undone.

Weaving a tangled web does leave you nowhere to hide, when its being unravelled publicly.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 07:52:35 PM
How ridiculous.

Even if there had been 100 children "abducted", in bed or out of it, it has ZERO bearing to this case.

The evidence tells us what happened.

Unfortunately for them, Tannerman  represents a massive hole in their story which cannot be undone.

Weaving a tangled web does leave you nowhere to hide, when its being unravelled publicly.

Correct. Statistics mean nothing in the individual case - as is regularly noted.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 07, 2014, 09:03:41 PM
Correct. Statistics mean nothing in the individual case - as is regularly noted.

Again, I agree. I'm not aware of statistics concerning two commercial jets deliberately flying into skyscrapers... but sadly and with respect for those affected, it happened.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM
All it shows is the missing people whose descriptions were uploaded and are still on the PJ missing persons' page.
The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:26:49 PM
The OP is about prevalence of abduction in Portugal and not about the probability of abduction from bed in Europe.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 12:01:46 AM
Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart



[This post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information]
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 08, 2014, 12:14:11 AM
All of which proves.....

NOTHING.

I've got statistics too - 90% old abducted children are taken by someone they know.

If your examples remain "unsolved" there is STILL a 90% chance it was someone they know.  This statistic doesn't change from one society to another.

Children's most risk filled environment,  statistically speaking, is home sweet home.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 12:28:09 AM
All of which proves.....

NOTHING.

I've got statistics too - 90% old abducted children are taken by someone they know.

If your examples remain "unsolved" there is STILL a 90% chance it was someone they know.  This statistic doesn't change from one society to another.

Children's most risk filled environment,  statistically speaking, is home sweet home.

Oh how strange that YOU should rubbish them.  SY were interested and came back to me on it.

But then i guess YOU know best.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 12:45:28 AM
All of which proves.....

NOTHING.

I've got statistics too - 90% old abducted children are taken by someone they know.

If your examples remain "unsolved" there is STILL a 90% chance it was someone they know.  This statistic doesn't change from one society to another.

Children's most risk filled environment,  statistically speaking, is home sweet home.
So your comment Silkywhiskers, was all sweetness and light?  Was it?


Why is it that everything I say, you see fit to rubbish.  What is it to you?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 08, 2014, 05:31:02 AM
So your comment Silkywhiskers, was all sweetness and light?  Was it?


Why is it that everything I say, you see fit to rubbish.  What is it to you?

Relax.

If you're going to post your views online you've got to expect rebuttal.

Particularly if your arguments are ridiculous or based on fallacy.  Which yours are.

If you can't cope with the big meanies online, perhaps get a more soothing hobby.

PS I've seen you say some horrible things to other posters BTW.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: colombosstogey on March 08, 2014, 06:51:58 AM
The OP is about prevalence of abduction in Portugal and not about the probability of abduction from bed in Europe.

EXACTLY, so from the stats it is safe in Portugal for children, not like the UK.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 08, 2014, 07:44:27 AM
The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).

So that's three children, v's over sixteen million.

No, child abduction in Portugal is not so prevalent.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 09:35:13 AM
The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).

It doesn't seem to be updated regularly. What are the criteria for the PJ to list a missing child on that page? When a crime is suspected? Or when a missing child has been reported to any of PT's police forces?

There are children on the PT missing child site http://www.ap-cd.pt/pages/menores18 who don't appear on the PJ one. From a quick glance, even that association seems to concentrate on presumed abductions (the ones I've glanced at are presumed to be parental), rather than on children whose whereabouts are temporarily unknown.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/criancas.desaparecidas.pt

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 09:50:55 AM
https://en-gb.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=627527103962090&set=a.204495169598621.50965.199371593444312&type=1&theater

I'm afraid that I'm not a subscriber to DN and can't access the original to offer a googletranslate link, but the headline says that no one knows where 19 children abducted by their parents are. The article is dated 25 Jan 2014.

Whether they are confirmed as parental abductions or not, Anne has counted the number of children on the PJ site, and there weren't 19 of them.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 10:37:33 AM
Google doesn't like FB and is refusing to translate from links. The "Encontre David" FB page has copied out the original article which was posted as an image.

As Googletranslate isn't accurate at the best of times, I've posted both.

( NEWS - p3 Daily News - 25/01/2014 ) " Nobody knows where 19 children are abducted by parents " - DRAMA parental abductions are the main cause of missing children up to 9 years . Of the 54 who are at large , 19 were taken by the father or mother

David's face , a 6 year old boy , son of a Portuguese father and Polish mother , will circulate throughout Europe starting this weekend as part of an international campaign launched by her father , with the support of the Portuguese Association of Parents Missing Children ( APCD ), so that might help you find the kidnapped child by the mother , Portuguese ( see box at right ) . David is one of 19 Portuguese children, in the age group 0 to 9 years , which is missing , according to the APCD .

" Parental abductions are the main cause of the disappearance of babies and younger children ," said the president of the DN APCD , Patricia Cipriano . According to the data of the association , 54 cases of missing children are unresolved in Portugal , 35 % of which ( 19 cases ) are parental abductions .

There were four children and adolescents aged 10 to 17 who were abducted by strangers , according to figures compiled by the APCD , but none recorded in the range of 0 to 9 years . In young adults over 18 years the association knows of eight cases of abduction by strangers.

Leaks, " very common in adolescents," said Patricia Cipriano as were four starring children and adolescents 10 to 17 years. Two happened to people over 18 . The APCD accounts still lost two minors between 10 and 17 years .

The abduction of infants and children up to 9 years played by strangers has not been very frequent in Portugal . " Cases like Daniel , the Madeiran baby (see text above) , is suspected of rape , are very rare . In association parents of children who have disappeared in unexplained circumstances , as was the case of Rui Pedro and others, but in recent years we have no record of similar situations with babies and younger children , "says Patricia Cipriano .

If he were alive today would Rui Pedro 26 years. About where the boy disappeared Lousada in 1998 , 11 years , there have been several theories , none so far with effective results . The process of kidnapping was reopened nearly a decade and a half after his disappearance . Afonso Dias , the last person to have seen the lowest alive , was condemned by the ratio to three years and six months in prison last year for the kidnapping , but one question remains unanswered : where is Rui Pedro ?

In 2012 , according to official figures PJ , disappeared 85 children from 0 to 9 years , 2.07 % of 2366 children and young people missing this year . The age group with the most missing was 15 to 18 years, with 1677 cases , 40.6 % of the total. Followed by the range of 13 to 14 years , with 514 cases ( 12.55% of total) . From 10 to 12 years, there were 90 cases in 2012 , or 2.20% of the total. " The APCD receives on average 20 to 30 cases per year in the trails and subtractions or sequestration smaller majority. Of these , remain unresolved more than 50 % , given the lengthy legal processes and move children out of the country, " concluded Patricia Cipriano .

The DN requested information from the section Missing PJ , but the direction of this national security force did not authorize the release of data until time of closing of this edition . RUTH RABBIT

PHOTO : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677638078955287

Anyone with information about DAVID SANTIAGO Rybczynski anywhere please contact the Department of the Disappeared of the Judicial Police and / or the Office of Child Support IAC under No. 116 000 #

Thanks for sharing our links to help find DAVID SANTIAGO Rybczynski

IF YOU HAVE INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT :
Tel : 116 000

FIND DAVID - FOLLOW U.S.
WWW : http://www.UQR.me/Encontre-David
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YouTube : https://www.YouTube.com/EncontreDavid
Pinterest : http://www.pinterest.com/EncontreDavid
Twitter : https://Twitter.com/Encontre_David

Encontre David Desaparecido shared their photo.
(NOTÍCIAS - Diário de Notícias p3 - 1/25/2014) “Ninguém sabe onde estão 19 crianças raptadas pelos pais” - DRAMA Raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de crianças até aos 9 anos. Das 54 que estão em parte incerta, 19 foram levadas pelo pai ou pela mãe O rosto de David, um menino de 6 anos, filho de mãe portuguesa e pai polaco, vai circular por toda a Europa a partir deste fim de semana, no âmbito de uma campanha internacional lançada pelo pai, com o apoio da Associação Portuguesa de Pais de Crianças Desaparecidas (APCD), para que o ajudem a encontrar o filho raptado pela mãe, portuguesa (ver texto ao lado). David é um dos 19 menores portugueses, no grupo etário dos 0 aos 9 anos, que se encontra desaparecido, segundo dados da APCD. “Os raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de bebés e crianças mais novas”, afirmou ao DN a presidente da APCD, Patrícia Cipriano. Segundo os dados da associação, 54 casos de crianças desaparecidas estão por resolver em Portugal, 35% dos quais (19 casos) são raptos parentais. Houve quatro crianças e adolescentes dos 10 aos 17 anos que foram raptados por desconhecidos, segundo os números recolhidos pela APCD, mas nenhum registado na faixa dos 0 aos 9 anos. Nos jovens maiores de 18 anos a associação sabe de oito casos de rapto por desconhecidos. As fugas, “muito comuns nos adolescentes”, como referiu Patrícia Cipriano, foram quatro, protagonizadas por crianças e adolescentes dos 10 aos 17 anos. Duas aconteceram com maiores de 18. A APCD contabiliza ainda dois menores perdidos entre os 10 e os 17 anos. O rapto de bebés e crianças até aos 9 anos protagonizado por desconhecidos não tem sido muito frequente em Portugal. “Casos como o do Daniel, o bebé madeirense (ver texto em cima), em que se suspeita de rapto, são muito raros. Na associação temos pais de crianças que desapareceram em circunstâncias por explicar, como foi o caso de Rui Pedro e de outros, mas nos últimos anos não temos registo de situações similares com bebés e crianças mais novas”, diz Patrícia Cipriano. Se fosse vivo, Rui Pedro teria hoje 26 anos. Sobre onde está o menino que desapareceu de Lousada em 1998, com 11 anos, já houve várias teses, nenhuma até agora com resultados eficazes. O processo por rapto foi reaberto quase uma década e meia depois do seu desaparecimento. Afonso Dias, a última pessoa que terá visto o menor com vida, foi condenado pela Relação a três anos e seis meses de prisão no ano passado pelo rapto, mas uma pergunta permanece sem resposta: onde está o Rui Pedro? Em 2012, segundo dados oficiais da PJ, desapareceram 85 crianças dos 0 aos 9 anos, 2,07% das 2366 crianças e jovens desaparecidos nesse ano. O grupo etário com mais desaparecidos foi dos 15 aos 18 anos, com 1677 casos, 40,6% do total. Seguiu-se a faixa dos 13 e 14 anos, com 514 casos (12,55% do total). Dos 10 aos 12 anos houve 90 casos em 2012, ou seja, 2,20% do total. “A APCD recebe em média 20 a 30 casos por ano, na maioria fugas e subtrações ou sequestro de menores. Desses, ficam por resolver mais de 50%, dada a morosidade dos processos judiciais e a deslocação das crianças para fora do território nacional”, concluiu Patrícia Cipriano. O DN pediu esclarecimentos à secção de Desaparecidos da PJ, mas a direção nacional desta força de segurança não autorizou a divulgação de dados até à hora de fecho desta edição. RUTE COELHO PHOTO: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677638078955287 Qualquer pessoa com informações acerca do DAVID SANTIAGO RYBCZYŃSKI em qualquer lugar é favor de contactar o Departamento dos Desaparecidos da Policia Judiciaria e/ou Instituto de Apoio a Criança IAC sob nº #116 000 Obrigado por partilhar os nossos links para ajudar encontrar DAVID SANTIAGO RYBCZYŃSKI SE TIVER INFORMAÇÃO POR FAVOR CONTACTE: Tel.: 116 000 ENCONTRE DAVID - SEGUE-NOS WWW: http://www.UQR.me/Encontre-David Facebook: https://www.Facebook.com/Encontre.David Google+s: https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/115469335700180969578/115469335700180969578 YouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/EncontreDavid Pinterest: http://www.pinterest.com/EncontreDavid Twitter: https://Twitter.com/Encontre_David
(NOTÍCIAS - Diário de Notícias p3 - 1/25/2014) “Ninguém sabe onde estão 19 crianças raptadas pelos pais” - DRAMA Raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de crianças até aos 9 anos. Das 54 que estão em parte incerta, 19 foram levadas pelo pai ou pela mãe

O rosto de David, um menino de 6 anos, filho de mãe portuguesa e pai polaco, vai circular por toda a Europa a partir deste fim de semana, no âmbito de uma campanha internacional lançada pelo pai, com o apoio da Associação Portuguesa de Pais de Crianças Desaparecidas (APCD), para que o ajudem a encontrar o filho raptado pela mãe, portuguesa (ver texto ao lado). David é um dos 19 menores portugueses, no grupo etário dos 0 aos 9 anos, que se encontra desaparecido, segundo dados da APCD.

“Os raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de bebés e crianças mais novas”, afirmou ao DN a presidente da APCD, Patrícia Cipriano. Segundo os dados da associação, 54 casos de crianças desaparecidas estão por resolver em Portugal, 35% dos quais (19 casos) são raptos parentais.

Houve quatro crianças e adolescentes dos 10 aos 17 anos que foram raptados por desconhecidos, segundo os números recolhidos pela APCD, mas nenhum registado na faixa dos 0 aos 9 anos. Nos jovens maiores de 18 anos a associação sabe de oito casos de rapto por desconhecidos.

As fugas, “muito comuns nos adolescentes”, como referiu Patrícia Cipriano, foram quatro, protagonizadas por crianças e adolescentes dos 10 aos 17 anos. Duas aconteceram com maiores de 18. A APCD contabiliza ainda dois menores perdidos entre os 10 e os 17 anos.

O rapto de bebés e crianças até aos 9 anos protagonizado por desconhecidos não tem sido muito frequente em Portugal. “Casos como o do Daniel, o bebé madeirense (ver texto em cima), em que se suspeita de rapto, são muito raros. Na associação temos pais de crianças que desapareceram em circunstâncias por explicar, como foi o caso de Rui Pedro e de outros, mas nos últimos anos não temos registo de situações similares com bebés e crianças mais novas”, diz Patrícia Cipriano.

Se fosse vivo, Rui Pedro teria hoje 26 anos. Sobre onde está o menino que desapareceu de Lousada em 1998, com 11 anos, já houve várias teses, nenhuma até agora com resultados eficazes. O processo por rapto foi reaberto quase uma década e meia depois do seu desaparecimento. Afonso Dias, a última pessoa que terá visto o menor com vida, foi condenado pela Relação a três anos e seis meses de prisão no ano passado pelo rapto, mas uma pergunta permanece sem resposta: onde está o Rui Pedro?

Em 2012, segundo dados oficiais da PJ, desapareceram 85 crianças dos 0 aos 9 anos, 2,07% das 2366 crianças e jovens desaparecidos nesse ano. O grupo etário com mais desaparecidos foi dos 15 aos 18 anos, com 1677 casos, 40,6% do total. Seguiu-se a faixa dos 13 e 14 anos, com 514 casos (12,55% do total). Dos 10 aos 12 anos houve 90 casos em 2012, ou seja, 2,20% do total. “A APCD recebe em média 20 a 30 casos por ano, na maioria fugas e subtrações ou sequestro de menores. Desses, ficam por resolver mais de 50%, dada a morosidade dos processos judiciais e a deslocação das crianças para fora do território nacional”, concluiu Patrícia Cipriano.

O DN pediu esclarecimentos à secção de Desaparecidos da PJ, mas a direção nacional desta força de segurança não autorizou a divulgação de dados até à hora de fecho desta edição. RUTE COELHO

PHOTO: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677638078955287

Qualquer pessoa com informações acerca do DAVID SANTIAGO RYBCZYŃSKI em qualquer lugar é favor de contactar o Departamento dos Desaparecidos da Policia Judiciaria e/ou Instituto de Apoio a Criança IAC sob nº #116 000

Obrigado por partilhar os nossos links para ajudar encontrar DAVID SANTIAGO RYBCZYŃSKI

SE TIVER INFORMAÇÃO POR FAVOR CONTACTE:
Tel.: 116 000

ENCONTRE DAVID - SEGUE-NOS
WWW: http://www.UQR.me/Encontre-David
Facebook: https://www.Facebook.com/Encontre.David
Google+s: https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/115469335700180969578/115469335700180969578
YouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/EncontreDavid
Pinterest: http://www.pinterest.com/EncontreDavid
Twitter: https://Twitter.com/Encontre_David

https://www.facebook.com/encontre.david/posts/10152229236091081
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 10:58:45 AM
It doesn't seem to be updated regularly. What are the criteria for the PJ to list a missing child on that page? When a crime is suspected? Or when a missing child has been reported to any of PT's police forces?

There are children on the PT missing child site http://www.ap-cd.pt/pages/menores18 who don't appear on the PJ one. From a quick glance, even that association seems to concentrate on presumed abductions (the ones I've glanced at are presumed to be parental), rather than on children whose whereabouts are temporarily unknown.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/criancas.desaparecidas.pt
What makes you suspect this ?
Why would the PJ hide missing children ?
Children abducted by a parent aren't on the list, they're not properly missing, many are taken out of Portugal (Africa, Brazil).
One of the 3 cases is a toddler taken by her father who appeared hours after without her, then it's a missing child case, likely dead but no body found.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 11:05:31 AM
https://en-gb.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=627527103962090&set=a.204495169598621.50965.199371593444312&type=1&theater

I'm afraid that I'm not a subscriber to DN and can't access the original to offer a googletranslate link, but the headline says that no one knows where 19 children abducted by their parents are. The article is dated 25 Jan 2014.

Whether they are confirmed as parental abductions or not, Anne has counted the number of children on the PJ site, and there weren't 19 of them.
What are you trying to do, Carana ? Those children aren't missing, they're with one of their parents. These cases are very delicate and handled by proper institutions.
It has no place on this thread.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 11:15:45 AM
What are you trying to do, Carana ? Those children aren't missing, they're with one of their parents. These cases are very delicate and handled by proper institutions.
It has no place on this thread.

What is your definition of "missing"? Children whose whereabouts aren't known are not missing?

Why wouldn't even parental abduction be unacceptable on this thread, the title of which is "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?"
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 11:26:58 AM
What are you trying to do, Carana ? Those children aren't missing, they're with one of their parents. These cases are very delicate and handled by proper institutions.
It has no place on this thread.
Carana is correct.   These children are missing Anne.  Why are you trying to cover that up?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 11:41:18 AM
If Cariad pops in here, I'd be interested in how s/he interpreted your post here:

Cariad

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Re: Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?
« Reply #182 on: Today at 07:44:27 AM »

    Quote

Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).


So that's three children, v's over sixteen million.

No, child abduction in Portugal is not so prevalent.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 08, 2014, 11:49:50 AM
What are you trying to do, Carana ? Those children aren't missing, they're with one of their parents. These cases are very delicate and handled by proper institutions.
It has no place on this thread.

What you fail to understand Anne is that it has to be demonstrated that Portugal is a sink of iniquity otherwise The Moonies theories don't stack up. So we leave no stone unturned to rubbish anything Portuguese. QED.
Now watch for the spite and vitriol  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 11:53:22 AM
What is your definition of "missing"? Children whose whereabouts aren't known are not missing?

Why wouldn't even parental abduction be unacceptable on this thread, the title of which is "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?"
Missing strictly means that nobody knows the whereabouts of a child.
When a child is taken by a parent, that parent at least knows where the child is.
ergo children taken by a parent cannot be included in missing children.
If you wish to study and compare the cases of children taken to one parent by the other, do it on another thread for the sake of rigour.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 11:58:31 AM
What you fail to understand Anne is that it has to be demonstrated that Portugal is a sink of iniquity otherwise The Moonies theories don't stack up. So we leave no stone unturned to rubbish anything Portuguese. QED.
Now watch for the spite and vitriol  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
I forbid myself usually to make that kind of judgement without evidence.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: CPN on March 08, 2014, 11:59:57 AM
Missing strictly means that nobody knows the whereabouts of a child.
When a child is taken by a parent, that parent at least knows where the child is.
ergo children taken by a parent cannot be included in missing children.
If you wish to study and compare the cases of children taken to one parent by the other, do it on another thread for the sake of rigour.

Anne is quite correct, children abducted by one parent are in a totally different category for the simple reason that it is often known both where they are and who they are with.  That is also why there is an entirely different organisation specifically to assist in parental abduction, which can offer help in the UK: http://www.reunite.org/
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 12:04:32 PM
Missing strictly means that nobody knows the whereabouts of a child.
When a child is taken by a parent, that parent at least knows where the child is.
ergo children taken by a parent cannot be included in missing children.
If you wish to study and compare the cases of children taken to one parent by the other, do it on another thread for the sake of rigour.

So... in a thread entitled "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?", you object to me posting about (presumed) parental abductions?

If you understood missing children to exclude parental abduction, then why did you post this:

Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years !
Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).



Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 12:21:28 PM
So... in a thread entitled "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?", you object to me posting about (presumed) parental abductions?

This is abusive. There was no presumed fatherly abduction in the case of Madeleine though her father was the last person who saw her.


This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: CPN on March 08, 2014, 12:47:41 PM
Re: parental child abduction:

5th February: "We are pleased to say that there is a positive ending to January as we received reports of 51 children returning home.
 Children have returned to England & Wales from;
 Egypt, France, India, Italy, Jordan Mauritius, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Nigeria Pakistan Poland Portugal Somalia, Spain, Sudan, Thailand, Tunisia, Uganda and USA.
 Children have returned from England and Wales to;
 Colombia, Italy, Lithuania, Pakistan, Poland, Romania and Uganda.
 There have also been returns from;
 France to USA, India to Ireland, Scotland to Ireland, Taiwan to USA and Turkey to Finland.
 Here’s hoping that February is just as positive!"

18th February - "Good news; so far in February we have had reports of 13 children being returned home.
 Children have been returned to England & Wales from; India, Ireland, Italy, Macedonia, New Zealand, Nigeria and Zimbabwe.
 There have also been returns from England and Wales to Holland and from Norway to USA.
 Here's hoping for many more."
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Reunite-International-Child-Abduction-Centre/135212229868115?fref=ts  And those are just parental abductions known to Reunite

Did anyone hear of ANY of those children being abducted from the UK?  NO - because they were parental abductions.  They are  NOT the same and cannot be compared.  But, if we do compare - what a dreadful country the UK must be for child abductions!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: CPN on March 08, 2014, 12:53:30 PM
Incidentally, the question put to Gerry McCann as to whether or not he was the biological father of Madeleine (following IVF I believe) was NOT an insult to Gerry, it was a perfectly valid investigative question in order to eliminate one possibility.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 01:03:18 PM
Re: parental child abduction:

5th February: "We are pleased to say that there is a positive ending to January as we received reports of 51 children returning home.
 Children have returned to England & Wales from;
 Egypt, France, India, Italy, Jordan Mauritius, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Nigeria Pakistan Poland Portugal Somalia, Spain, Sudan, Thailand, Tunisia, Uganda and USA.
 Children have returned from England and Wales to;
 Colombia, Italy, Lithuania, Pakistan, Poland, Romania and Uganda.
 There have also been returns from;
 France to USA, India to Ireland, Scotland to Ireland, Taiwan to USA and Turkey to Finland.
 Here’s hoping that February is just as positive!"

18th February - "Good news; so far in February we have had reports of 13 children being returned home.
 Children have been returned to England & Wales from; India, Ireland, Italy, Macedonia, New Zealand, Nigeria and Zimbabwe.
 There have also been returns from England and Wales to Holland and from Norway to USA.
 Here's hoping for many more."
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Reunite-International-Child-Abduction-Centre/135212229868115?fref=ts  And those are just parental abductions known to Reunite

Did anyone hear of ANY of those children being abducted from the UK?  NO - because they were parental abductions.  They are  NOT the same and cannot be compared.  But, if we do compare - what a dreadful country the UK must be for child abductions!
Thank you for those informations, CPN !
These parental abductions are specific and extremely delicate situations and even if the interests of the child are what first matters, they are sometimes difficult to elucidate, as these children most often are manipulated.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 01:08:18 PM
I wonder how the McCanns would react hearing Madeleine is a kind of shield that explains why no child is missing in Portugal ! Saint Madeleine somehow.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 01:09:15 PM
This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --
That was in Madeira, many years ago.

The Mother and Father fell out and the father left with the child.  Allegedly he came back without the child and said that he had sold her.   Seems no investigations took place.  None that I have found anyway, but am willing to be corrected on that

Also allegedly there is/ was a thriving child market at Camara de Lobos, just west of Funchal in Madeira.   Seems it had a beautiful marina and was a resort frequented by the Elite.  These children seem to have been mainly moved around by yacht / any sea going boats.

Winston Churchill used to holiday there regularly, but I doubt he was involved in any way !  Just an illustration of how elite the place was.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 03:47:59 PM
 AnneGuedes

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Re: Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?
« Reply #196 on: Today at 12:21:28 PM »

    Quote

Quote from: Carana on Today at 12:04:32 PM

    So... in a thread entitled "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?", you object to me posting about (presumed) parental abductions?

    This is abusive. There was no presumed fatherly abduction in the case of Madeleine though her father was the last person who saw her.
*

*I did not say this. Something has got mixed up with quotation marks.

ETA: To clarify, this was your response:
This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --
« Last Edit: Today at 12:58:00 PM by Sherlock Holmes »


Anyway... I'm still not clear what your point is, Anne. Which child / parent are you referring to in your comment?

I was referring to the discrepancy between what appears on the PJ site (and which seems to be the basis for your analysis of only 3 missing children in 10 years) and the recent DN article that I had posted above, indicating that there are 54 unresolved cases of missing children in Portugal, of which 35% (19 cases) are parental abductions.


“Os raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de bebés e crianças mais novas”, afirmou ao DN a presidente da APCD, Patrícia Cipriano. Segundo os dados da associação, 54 casos de crianças desaparecidas estão por resolver em Portugal, 35% dos quais (19 casos) são raptos parentais.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 08, 2014, 03:50:34 PM
Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart





The above post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information.  If anyone disagrees with any of the information included please comment below.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 04:14:16 PM
What's the point of this list John? Or Sadie?

Criminals we know move all over the world and particularly easily in the EU. The obsession with what happens only in Portugal is xenophobic whether Sadie recognises it or not.

There's another word that would also describe this unhealthy obsession but I'll refrain from using that one in public.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 04:16:15 PM
Child 7 did not disappear, and it is not an established fact that the man mentioned ever existed.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 08, 2014, 04:33:53 PM
The list originally provided by Sadie is an excellent indicator of child disappearances in Portugal.  What isn't know in most of these cases is whether the disappearances were down to accidents or abductions.

That said however, if a child had encountered an accident and fallen in a river or down a well the chances are that their remains would be found at some stage.  What the cases depicted above all have in common is that no body or remains have ever been found.  Additionally, in some cases there are witness accounts of an abduction while in others, reported sightings of the children in another country.

We cannot state with certainty that any of the children were abducted but it certainly looks like it.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 04:35:57 PM
Child 7 did not disappear, and it is not an established fact that the man mentioned ever existed.
Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 04:36:42 PM
Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.

Total Bullshit.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 04:37:09 PM
There seems to be an issue on this thread concerning what constitutes a "missing" child and a presumed / verified abducted one.

Whatever definition is accepted on here, UK statistics on "missing" children cannot be compared to the few children on the PJ site. I'm aware that this discussion was not the topic of the thread, but comparisons were made.

Is there any official PT site offering statistics on missing/abducted/murdered children?

My concern is not about comparing the UK or any other country to PT, but what I perceive to be attempts to deny the fact that Portugal is just like any other country in that - as everywhere else - children do go missing for whatever reason.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 04:37:31 PM
Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.

Well that's what a parent said, but you don't know if any of it is true or not.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 08, 2014, 04:41:22 PM
Diário de Notícias
25 May 2007

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See how there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

But, wait there's more. The Diário de Notícias goes on to say that the woman "filed a complaint with GNR from Silves the next day, and was contacted yesterday by investigators from Polícia Judiciária, to whom she told what happened." The newspaper then said that after "Talking with local residents" they "found that the man in question is a street seller and a well known trouble maker."

So far from "never being questioned" the family was questioned by both the GNR and the PJ, and what's more everyone knows who was responsible for causing the trouble in the first place.

This incident appears to be down to a drunk Moroccan street vendor who got into argument with Carolina's father, a local cafe owner.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 04:41:57 PM
The list originally provided by Sadie is an excellent indicator of child disappearances in Portugal.  What isn't know in most of these cases is whether the disappearances were down to accidents or abductions.

That said however, if a child had encountered an accident and fallen in a river or down a well the chances are that their remains would be found at some stage.  What the cases depicted above all have in common is that no body or remains have ever been found.  Additionally, in some cases there are witness accounts of an abduction while in others, reported sightings of the children in another country.

We cannot state with certainty that any of the children were abducted but it certainly looks like it.

But Madeleine isn't Portuguese, and all this data true or not is irrelevant.

None of the cases listed are of children in the country for just a few days on holiday.

There's no relevance in Sadie's obsession at all. It's just smearing Portugal because it suits some people here to do so.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 08, 2014, 04:45:40 PM
But Madeleine isn't Portuguese, and all this data true or not is irrelevant.

None of the cases listed are of children in the country for just a few days on holiday.

There's no relevance in Sadie's obsession at all. It's just smearing Portugal because it suits some people here to do so.

The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?

 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 04:46:35 PM

I was referring to the discrepancy between what appears on the PJ site (and which seems to be the basis for your analysis of only 3 missing children in 10 years) and the recent DN article that I had posted above, indicating that there are 54 unresolved cases of missing children in Portugal, of which 35% (19 cases) are parental abductions.

Minors who weren't taken from a parent by their other parent are minors who flew away from institutions. If they were properly missing they would be listed on the PJ site.
What you attempt to do from your armchair, Carana, has a name, it's safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?

Of course not and Carana is of course right to say it's silly to deny crimes occur in Portugal just like in any other country.

Of course they do but some people here - by only concentrating on Portugal - seek to portray the country as a paradise for kidnappers, and that's also equally silly (and xenophobic).
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 04:51:16 PM
Minors who weren't taken from a parent by their other parent are minors who flew away from institutions. If they were properly missing they would be listed on the PJ site.
What you attempt to do from your armchair, Carana, has a name, it's safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities.

You still haven't clarified this post of yours, unless I missed it:



Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).



NB: What have I said on this thread that you consider to be "safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities"?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 04:51:24 PM
The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?
Sure !  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 04:52:04 PM
You still haven't clarified this post of yours, unless I missed it:



Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).

What are you talking about ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 04:53:35 PM
What are you talking about ?

I was asking you to clarify your post...
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 04:57:41 PM
I was asking you to clarify your post...
Clarify your question first, please.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: ferryman on March 08, 2014, 04:58:18 PM
Of course not and Carana is of course right to say it's silly to deny crimes occur in Portugal just like in any other country.

Of course they do but some people here - by only concentrating on Portugal - seek to portray the country as a paradise for kidnappers, and that's also equally silly (and xenophobic).

I recall a (slightly clumsy) headline in (from memory) the Daily Mail) describing Portugal as a haven for paedophiles (or some such).

I agree that was unfortunate, but was not (I don't think) intended to reflect any disparagement of Portuguese males; rather, that paedophiles in Portugal are, perhaps, less rigorously monitored in Portugal than in other countries.

Certainly, per head of its population, Portugal probably has about the same number of paedophiles as Britain, or most other countries of the world.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 04:59:19 PM


The above post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information.  If anyone disagrees with any of the information included please comment below.
Thank you John for the photos.  They greatly enhance the post. 



Such a pity that you couldn't have found a prettier picture and more recent one of Joana, rather than that earlier cut down one showing her helping her Mum with the pram.  She was almost always smiling or laughing.

I think that you must agree that in the Joana Cipriano case there is a great deal of evidence to undermine the findings of the PT Courts and that a good many people believe that she was NOT murdered as the Court found based on very dubious circumstances. 

To say the least, that case was unsafe and would NEVER have taken place in a truly Democratic Country which PT claims to be.  I believe, as many do, that Joana was abducted.

I believe she is on the group photo at Zinat with some certainty.... but I know that will be ridiculed !

I am keen that my observation that Rene Hasses disappearance / abduction in 1996 on Amoreias beach in the Algarve appears to link the northern abductions in the 1990's to the southern abductions, mainly in the 2000's, should be noted.


Because I think this indicates that the same man was involved in both lots of abductions, north and south.



NO other abductions apart from these tiny clusters in the north and south in the whole of PT.  And PT is very approximately two thirds the size of England.

To me, it seems that he (the abductor) carried on abducting just 5 years after the warning from the PJ ... but he took great care to change his Modus Operandi ... to try and hide that it was him again.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:00:44 PM
Total Bullshit.
Cheers Spam !    @)(++(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 05:03:18 PM
I recall a (slightly clumsy) headline in (from memory) the Daily Mail) describing Portugal as a haven for paedophiles (or some such).

I agree that was unfortunate, but was not (I don't think) intended to reflect any disparagement of Portuguese males; rather, that paedophiles in Portugal are, perhaps, less rigorously monitored in Portugal than in other countries.

Certainly, per head of its population, Portugal probably has about the same number of paedophiles as Britain, or most other countries of the world.

You notice I didn't use the word paedophile, but you did?

That kind of makes my point for me.

It's an unhealthy obsession.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:03:35 PM
Diário de Notícias
25 May 2007

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See how there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

But, wait there's more. The Diário de Notícias goes on to say that the woman "filed a complaint with GNR from Silves the next day, and was contacted yesterday by investigators from Polícia Judiciária, to whom she told what happened." The newspaper then said that after "Talking with local residents" they "found that the man in question is a street seller and a well known trouble maker."

So far from "never being questioned" the family was questioned by both the GNR and the PJ, and what's more everyone knows who was responsible for causing the trouble in the first place.

This incident appears to be down to a drunk Moroccan street vendor who got into argument with Carolina's father, a local cafe owner.
Earlier reports had a different slant to them John, but according to the norm these days, they have been whitewashed out.

I wonder whi is hiding these things?  And why?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 05:03:56 PM
Thank you John for the photos.  They greatly enhance the post. 



Such a pity that you couldn't have found a prettier picture and more recent one of Joana, rather than that earlier cut down one showing her helping her Mum with the pram.  She was almost always smiling or laughing.

I think that you must agree that in the Joana Cipriano case there is a great deal of evidence to undermine the findings of the PT Courts and that a good many people believe that she was NOT murdered as the Court found based on very dubious circumstances. 

To say the least, that case was unsafe and would NEVER have taken place in a truly Democratic Country which PT claims to be.  I believe, as many do, that Joana was abducted.

I believe she is on the group photo at Zinat with some certainty.... but I know that will be ridiculed !

I am keen that my observation that Rene Hasses disappearance / abduction in 1996 on Amoreias beach in the Algarve appears to link the northern abductions in the 1990's to the southern abductions, mainly in the 2000's, should be noted.


Because I think this indicates that the same man was involved in both lots of abductions, north and south.



NO other abductions apart from these tiny clusters in the north and south in the whole of PT.  And PT is very approximately two thirds the size of England.

To me, it seems that he (the abductor) carried on abducting just 5 years after the warning from the PJ ... but he took great care to change his Modus Operandi ... to try and hide that it was him again.


I am keen that my observation that Rene Hasses disappearance / abduction in 1996 on Amoreias beach in the Algarve appears to link the northern abductions in the 1990's to the southern abductions, mainly in the 2000's, should be noted.


How does it appear to link?

Because I think this indicates that the same man was involved in both lots of abductions, north and south.


Sexist.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:05:29 PM
Well that's what a parent said, but you don't know if any of it is true or not.
According to you guys, all the parents are lying .... except Sharon Matthews !   

She was telling the truth WASN'T SHE ?

Jeez !
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 05:07:07 PM
You notice I didn't use the word paedophile, but you did?

That kind of makes my point for me.

It's an unhealthy obsession.

That has been the 'nonce-sense' propaganda technique since Gerry started it rolling.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: ferryman on March 08, 2014, 05:08:10 PM
So this, from Anne Guides, is not xenophobic, then?

EXACTLY, so from the stats it is safe in Portugal for children, not like the UK.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:08:48 PM

I am keen that my observation that Rene Hasses disappearance / abduction in 1996 on Amoreias beach in the Algarve appears to link the northern abductions in the 1990's to the southern abductions, mainly in the 2000's, should be noted.


How does it appear to link?

Because I think this indicates that the same man was involved in both lots of abductions, north and south.


Sexist.

Oh Yeah?

What is sexist about that?  Man is the name used for man and woman if you remember .... but I hardly think that a woman could or would have done these abductions.

Do you think it was a woamn, Spammy?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:11:03 PM
But Madeleine isn't Portuguese, and all this data true or not is irrelevant.

None of the cases listed are of children in the country for just a few days on holiday.

There's no relevance in Sadie's obsession at all. It's just smearing Portugal because it suits some people here to do so.
I love Portugal and have spoent many holkidays there.  I also love most PT people, but I bel;ieve in honesty and presenting the facts as I see them.

Anything wrong with that?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:12:11 PM
Sure !  @)(++(*
At least you are honest on this one Anne 8((()*/
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 05:13:21 PM
That has been the 'nonce-sense' propaganda technique since Gerry started it rolling.

8((()*/ They are the perfect illustration: it's Paedogeddon!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:14:03 PM
You notice I didn't use the word paedophile, but you did?

That kind of makes my point for me.

It's an unhealthy obsession.
Unfortunately it is a fact.

Wake up at the back Lyall  8(0(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 05:14:31 PM
Oh Yeah?

What is sexist about that?  Man is the name used for man and woman if you remember .... but I hardly think that a woman could or would have done these abductions.

Do you think it was a woman, Spammy?


I just find it offensive to immediately assume that every 'abductor' on the planet is a man.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 05:18:56 PM

I just find it offensive to immediately assume that every 'abductor' on the planet is a man.
How many can you name that are female, Wspam?



A bit touchy, aren't you?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 05:19:57 PM
Unfortunately it is a fact.

Wake up at the back Lyall  8(0(*

Fact, my eye. Research the number of children abducted while on holiday, not this motley list that includes parents claiming "Moroccans stole my kid!" (twice!)

How do you know he was Moroccan, sir? Well he looked like it.

How many children - anywhere in Europe - have been abducted while on holiday, Sadie?

That may be relevant. Your list isn't.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 08, 2014, 05:21:36 PM
How many can you name that are female, Wspam?



A bit touchy, aren't you?

Three pretty bleedin' evil ones without thinking too hard.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 05:31:02 PM

I just find it offensive to immediately assume that every 'abductor' on the planet is a man.
Paedophilia isn't limited to men.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 05:32:58 PM
How many can you name that are female, Wspam?



A bit touchy, aren't you?

This is the age of equality is it not.

Men were kind enough to give you women the vote, I think the very least you could do in return is not accuse all men of being child abductors.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 08, 2014, 05:34:06 PM
Paedophilia isn't limited to men.

The UK media would have us believe it is.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 05:42:38 PM
I suspect that you know that my list may be VERY relevant and that is why you are kicking up such a fuss about it, instead of debating it.

Debating what? The fact terrible crimes occur in every single country? Your list isn't relevant, it's propaganda. You attempt to claim some or all these crimes are the work of one person or one secret organisation (secret to all but you that is), and that's the kind of 'research' that's more at home on a forum like David Icke's really. They love international conspiracies there just as much as you do.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 05:48:01 PM
You notice I didn't use the word paedophile, but you did?

That kind of makes my point for me.

It's an unhealthy obsession.

I didn't come to the same conclusion as you about Ferryman's comment - he didn't say that he believed that all missing children were taken by paedophiles (if that is how you understood it): he just pointed out that the "haven for paedo" headline was about laxer control of paedos in Portugal (but that would no doubt be true of quite a few countries without a sex offender register).

My understanding of his comment is that such a headline could be perceived as xenophobic and thus create a defensive attitude towards missing children. If I've misunderstood his comment, I'm sure he'll correct me.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 08, 2014, 05:59:18 PM
This thread seems to have drifted well off course. It could do with a decent navigator.
Now in the 15th and 16th centuries the Portuguese were dab hands at that, Dias, da Gama, Magellan and the rest of the boys in the band.
Oh gosh we can't have that!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 06:00:51 PM
Back to the title of the thread... unless there are statistics on missing children, found and still missing, with explanations, how can anyone come to any conclusion?

How many countries have detailed statistics on this issue? Where appropriate IT is available, it may be simplifying police paperwork, but since when? If some countries don't have a missing child protocol in place, how are the police supposed to record details / circumstances in a uniform fashion?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 06:20:52 PM
Back to the title of the thread... unless there are statistics on missing children, found and still missing, with explanations, how can anyone come to any conclusion?

How many countries have detailed statistics on this issue? Where appropriate IT is available, it may be simplifying police paperwork, but since when? If some countries don't have a missing child protocol in place, how are the police supposed to record details / circumstances in a uniform fashion?
They dont Carana .  That is the trouble.  Loads were left off the PT PJ list.  Maybe they have been added now, I dunno.  Haven't really delved into it for about 4 years now and things change.

I do know that Cristavao when he was president of the new PT Organisation for Missing Childrens, refused to include Madeleine, cos he allegedly said that she had died in the apartment, later changed to the parents were being investigated.

I believe that she now is on the list.  Someone saw sense and put that right.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 08, 2014, 06:28:35 PM
Sadie.  With due respect and with the best will in the world, please do not refer to cases as abductions since they are not confirmed as such.

They are unexplained disappearances.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on March 08, 2014, 06:32:09 PM


The above post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information.  If anyone disagrees with any of the information included please comment below.

"On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC."


Seriously? "On the internet I read....."



I object in the strongest terms possible. Unless we can all start spewing garbage we've read on other forums?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 06:39:24 PM
Incidentally, the question put to Gerry McCann as to whether or not he was the biological father of Madeleine (following IVF I believe) was NOT an insult to Gerry, it was a perfectly valid investigative question in order to eliminate one possibility.

Yes, but why was this leaked to the press as a fact that he wasn't?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: CPN on March 08, 2014, 06:46:10 PM
Yes, but why was this leaked to the press as a fact that he wasn't?

I didn't know it had, Carana ( a) been leaked to the press and b) been stated that he wasn't). I just understood that it was a question that had been asked and the McCanns were upset about it.   I was just saying that, to me, it was a natural question that would be asked to eliminate one possibility. 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 06:49:01 PM
"On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC."


Seriously? "On the internet I read....


I object in the strongest terms possible. Unless we can all start spewing garbage we've read on other forums?

So you want that whitewashed out, do you Cariad.  How interesting



I have made it clear where I found it.  People can believe it or not.  That is their perogative.

BUT what is even more interesting to me, is the way that information previously seen on the internet is being changed or whitewashed out quite regularly.

The internet is  a dangerous place.  In the wrong hands, information can be changed.  Innocent people can be made guilty because of this



It reminds me of Pat Brown.  How she maintained that the bedroom window was so well illuminated and so overlooked, when it had all been fixed up before hand.  Trees galore had been cut down and a massive light fixed where there had been no light before.... ?just to give her that photo?  ......... I wonder

That was NOT true at the time of the abduction, but the information was changed



The internet is a dangerous place.



Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 08, 2014, 07:02:14 PM
Holy frijoles! The place is tapped [and not as in telephones]. I'm off .
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 07:09:54 PM
I didn't know it had, Carana ( a) been leaked to the press and b) been stated that he wasn't). I just understood that it was a question that had been asked and the McCanns were upset about it.   I was just saying that, to me, it was a natural question that would be asked to eliminate one possibility.

I agree that it would have been a normal issue to investigate, but it could have been done quietly... and not suddenly sprung in the press as a "revelation" - which it wasn't, it was just another myth, but which must have been quite hurtful to discover.



24Horas 12.10.07

PJ believes that the sperm donor was in England on May 3
Maddie's real father was identified

Madeleine's real father was identified in England by the British police, at the Policia Judiciaria's request, 24Horas could discover with senior sources at the PJ. The sperm donor who made it possible for Madeleine to be conceived, was not interrogated because authorities could confirm that he was in Englandon the date when the child disappeared, on May 3. According to our sources, Maddie's biological father had nothing to do with the disappearance of the child - as 24Horas had reported yesterday. PJ knows he is from Birmingham but they don't know the location or even his address, as it was not necessary, senior sources at the Judiciaria have advanced.

But PJ only rested when they dismissed this lead.

Gerry is the twins' father

Curiously, it is in the Birmingham area that the Forensic Science Lab is located, at which the DNA tests on the biological residues collected from the apartment and from the McCanns' rental car were performed.

PJ knows that Gerry McCann is not Maddie's biological father, as 24Horas reported yesterday and re-confirmed with several responsible sources at the Policia Judiciaria and at the National Institute for Forensic Medicine (NIFM).

"Gerry McCann was not the sperm donor for Maddie. He was the donor for the twins. But it's possible that Gerry himself doesn't know he is not the biological father. There may have been a switch at the laboratory", a source at the NIFM told 24Horas.

Pinto da Costa, a former president of the Forensic Medicine Institute in Oporto, sustains the explanation, without specifying the Maddie case. "There have been several cases when the husband was not the donor once, and was the donor on other occasions. It can happen that, at a certain moment of one's life, the person has his fertilizing capacity diminished for several reasons, like exhaustion or extreme stress".

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic2318.html


This was, of course, repeated all over the press.

And led to this:

'I AM Madeleine's dad': Gerry McCann rejects claims sperm donor was used for IVF

Gerry McCann has been forced to issue an extraordinary statement insisting that Madeleine is his natural daughter.

The heart consultant said he had acted to counter 'lies and absolute fabrication' in the Portuguese press.

According to 24 Horas, Madeleine, who was conceived using IVF, was the child of his wife, Kate, and an unnamed sperm donor.

The newspaper claimed that the four-yearold's parentage meant her DNA could not be confused with that of two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.

Scroll down for more ...

{2}

{R}

The supposed revelation would prove that bodily fluids found in the family's hire car had come from Madeleine and not from her brother or sister, the tabloid said.

Portuguese police are seeking evidence that the girl's body was transported in the Renault Scenic, which was hired 25 days after she disappeared.

The sperm donor story was dismissed as 'unwarranted, unsubstantiated and totally inaccurate speculation' by the family's spokesman Clarence Mitchell.

In a strongly worded statement agreed by the couple and their lawyers, he said: 'For the record Gerry McCann is the biological father of his daughter Madeleine.

"A newspaper report in the 24 Horas newspaper suggesting otherwise is nothing short of lies. It is indeed an absolute fabrication."

Scroll down for more ...

{7}

Mr Mitchell said the family's legal team was monitoring media coverage and would not hesitate to take action 'at the appropriate stage' in Portugal or Britain.

The newspaper - one of Portugal's most popular - claimed police there were certain Madeleine was not Mr McCann's child.

{3}

It claimed investigations in Britain had uncovered her biological father's identity.

The report caused 'complete horror and total distress' within the family, a friend said.

The McCanns were particularly upset that the latest claim came days after Portugal's most senior policeman vowed to clamp down on the constant smears and leaks from inside the Madeleine investigation.

Mr Mitchell said: "We have up to a year to sue and we will do. Gerry and Kate want to concentrate on the case involving Madeleine and don't want to do anything that may compromise that while they are official suspects.

"But they plan to sue 24 Horas and any other media outlets that print these claims as soon as the official suspect status is lifted."

Mr McCann's mother Eileen, 67, from Glasgow, said: 'To say Gerry is not Madeleine's natural father is utterly ridiculous.

"Madeleine is my natural granddaughter. Her eyes and nose are the same as mine.

"These allegations are totally unfounded. They are pure speculation and a load of nonsense. Whatever will the Portuguese papers make up next?"

Jill Renwick, a close friend of the family, described the report as "absolute rubbish". She said: "Gerry is Madeleine's biological father. I know for a fact there was no donor sperm.

"Whoever is coming out with these claims is really clutching at straws. It is corrupt."

The McCanns underwent IVF treatment near their Leicestershire home before Madeleine was conceived. They had further IVF treatment to conceive their twins while they were living in Amsterdam.

A friend said the 24 Horas report was published without any contact with the family.

The newspaper has run a series of articles this week which have all strongly denied by the McCanns.

Its co- editor, Luis Fontes, insisted he stood by the sperm donor story.

He said it was confirmed by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which has carried out analysis on samples taken from the McCanns' apartment and hire car.

The FSS denied it had made any comment on the case.

Mr Fontes said he was not aware of any threat of legal action from the McCanns over the article and added: "It is absolutely true. Our sources are rock solid."

He added: "If they [the McCanns] think they can sue us, bring it on."

Friends also denied claims in another Portuguese newspaper, Diario de Noticias, which said Mrs McCann, a 39-year-old GP, flew into a fit of rage after she was made a suspect in the case.

She was said to have broken crockery, pictures and "anything she could get her hands on" in the couple's hired villa in Praia da Luz.

Madeleine went missing from the Algarve resort on May 3.

Meanwhile, Mr McCann, 39, said he was encouraged by comments from Portugal's most senior detective, Alipio Ribeiro, who said the couple were still suspects but that police would consider other theories.

Forensic test results in the case will be given to police next week, it emerged yesterday.

The McCanns have been warned they could be asked to return to Portugal for further questioning.

The results are expected to be handed over on Monday but there could be further delays because two Portuguese government ministries will see them before they are passed on to the police.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487063/I-AM-Madeleines-dad-Gerry-McCann-rejects-claims-sperm-donor-used-IVF.html#ixzz2vOq5k16K
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 07:47:50 PM
So you want that whitewashed out, do you Cariad.  How interesting



I have made it clear where I found it.  People can believe it or not.  That is their perogative.

BUT what is even more interesting to me, is the way that information previously seen on the internet is being changed or whitewashed out quite regularly.

The internet is  a dangerous place.  In the wrong hands, information can be changed.  Innocent people can be made guilty because of this



It reminds me of Pat Brown.  How she maintained that the bedroom window was so well illuminated and so overlooked, when it had all been fixed up before hand.  Trees galore had been cut down and a massive light fixed where there had been no light before.... ?just to give her that photo?  ......... I wonder

That was NOT true at the time of the abduction, but the information was changed



The internet is a dangerous place.

David Icke is your friend @)(++(*

He won't whitewash your theories.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Lyall on March 08, 2014, 07:49:22 PM
Seriously though Sadie. You really think Pat got the PdL authorities to install lights and chop down trees? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 08, 2014, 07:53:30 PM
Seriously though Sadie. You really think Pat got the PdL authorities to install lights and chop down trees? >@@(*&)
.
If its on the Mark Warner plot more like a recommendation from CRG.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 08, 2014, 08:06:50 PM

I was just saying that, to me, it was a natural question that would be asked to eliminate one possibility.
As Faithlilly posted on another thread, "while we're talking round the houses about those subjects we're not discussing the important ones. That's how it works".
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 08, 2014, 08:13:53 PM
I didn't know it had, Carana ( a) been leaked to the press and b) been stated that he wasn't). I just understood that it was a question that had been asked and the McCanns were upset about it.   I was just saying that, to me, it was a natural question that would be asked to eliminate one possibility.

There are many natural question that are asked in every investigation and it is natural for some people to be upset by them...nothing wrong there
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 08, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
There are many natural question that are asked in every investigation and it is natural for some people to be upset by them...nothing wrong there

As I said earlier to CPN, I find nothing wrong with raising the issue with those concerned (if it ever was, which I doubt). My issue was the fact that it was suddenly splattered all over the media, by a "senior PJ" source, that Gerry wasn't the father. And in October 2007, the files hadn't been released, so it was definitely a leak. And a very mangled one at that.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 08, 2014, 08:33:29 PM
As I said earlier to CPN, I find nothing wrong with raising the issue with those concerned (if it ever was, which I doubt). My issue was the fact that it was suddenly splattered all over the media, by a "senior PJ" source, that Gerry wasn't the father. And in October 2007, the files hadn't been released, so it was definitely a leak. And a very mangled one at that.

The second it became known Kate used IVF the rumours were bound to start.

I would hesitate to call it a "leak", plenty of editors sat about devising fraudulent headlines in this case.

In fact, seems like they're still at it.  Look at Euclides.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: CPN on March 08, 2014, 08:34:29 PM
My memory must be bad, then, because I thought it was one of the questions raised by Yvonne Martin - as I said, quite understandably from my point of view - and was part of the reasons the McCanns objected to Yvonne Martin.   If I am wrong I apologise, I am not going to argue about it, there is too much unpleasant and unnecessary arguing on here
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 08, 2014, 08:40:15 PM
David Icke is your friend @)(++(*

He won't whitewash your theories.

 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)-)))
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 08, 2014, 11:35:41 PM
David Icke is your friend @)(++(*

He won't whitewash your theories.
The standard way to discredit any theories is to ridicule and undermine the person who put the theories forward, rather than discvuss the theories.

That technique is practiced by many of the worst offenders / biggest organisations in the World and it is highly successful.  Whilst David Ickes stuff is cutting edge and quite often goes too far, he also has done a good deal of worthwhile investigation.  Embarrassing stuff for the organisations, therefore they have put out propaganda to idicule him. 
Pity that his name has been so poisoned cos a good deal of his stuff is very worthwhile

The ridiculing technique has proved VERY successful and stopped many rational people from examining what he says ... or even looking at it.


It has been copied by people on forums ... and again is proving successful in shutting up people who present new stuff, by bullying, harrassing and ridiculing.

What is wrong with discussing things in a rational manner?




One thing that I know is that when the ridiculing of me starts, I have hit a sore spot and you guys dont know how to deal with it.  You guys are using the ridiculing technique rather than debate ... or just let it pass over.



The title of this thread is:
Re: Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?


The silly thing is that all I have done is supply a list of names with dates and places of youngsters whose families believe them abducted as do other people.

And pre Madeleine in Mainland PT, there were 8 stranger abductions missing children in 16 years.  Post Madeleine how many, I wonder?   


Can Anne pls supply the names /details that she claims and display her 10 year slot.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 09, 2014, 04:29:38 AM
This is the age of equality is it not.

Men were kind enough to give you women the vote, I think the very least you could do in return is not accuse all men of being child abductors.

!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 09, 2014, 07:56:11 AM
If you believe ...
... David Ickes stuff is cutting edge and quite often goes too far, he also has done a good deal of worthwhile investigation. 

...then there is no hope. DI is a load of opinions with no proof, circular and self referential arguments.

...and to cheer Davel up, more Celestial Teapots than a Celestial Teapot shop.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2014, 01:07:50 PM
As I remembered from previous reading, trying to work out missing children statistics (let alone abductions) across Europe is a mess.

European Commission – Directorate-General for Justice
Missing children in the European Union Mapping, data collection and statistics
(2013)

http://resourcecentre.savethechildren.se/sites/default/files/documents/1709_missing_children_study_2013_en_original_1.pdf

The analysis of data only goes back to 2008, so it doesn't reflect a 10-year period.

There are a few items concerning Portugal, but it is still difficult to compare as the authorities in the different countries rarely seem to be able to provide comparable information.


· Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal;


It's not clear how many of these kids were found or not, how old they were, how long they remained missing, nor what had happened to them.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 09, 2014, 01:12:48 PM
!

No worries, SH. When God made man, she was only experimenting... ;)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on March 11, 2014, 10:04:11 PM
No worries, SH. When God made man, she was only experimenting... ;)

no answer to taht
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 11:32:35 AM
no answer to taht

Some experiments were better than others? :)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2014, 11:53:42 AM
Some experiments were better than others? :)

I always thought it was....... ''When God made man, she was only joking'' ..........
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 13, 2014, 12:20:07 PM
I always thought it was....... ''When God made man, she was only joking'' ..........

Chicken and egg!  8(0(*
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 05:03:11 PM
LOL, Angelo!

Back to topic, checking into previous assertions on this thread concerning what I suspected to be unusually low rates of missing kids in Portugal don't seem to be correct as there are apparently 150-200 cases reported every year - and there are certainly not updates on the PJ web site to reflect those numbers.

Correction:


· Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal;
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2014, 05:06:54 PM
LOL, Angelo!

Back to topic, checking into previous assertions on this thread concerning what I suspected to be unusually low rates of missing kids in Portugal don't seem to be correct as there are apparently 150-200 cases reported every year - and there are certainly not updates on the PJ web site to reflect those numbers.

Which, as a number per head of its population, would probably not be all that different from Britain.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 05:10:23 PM
Which, as a number per head of its population, would probably not be all that different from Britain.

It's worth reading the European report that I'd posted earlier. To me, it's chalk, cheese, apples, oranges and bananas.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 11:10:44 AM
Which, as a number per head of its population, would probably not be all that different from Britain.

Yes, I'd corrected a previous reply to Angelo, as it's not a case of 150-200 cases per year, but


· Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal;

That's an awful lot more than the 1/2 dozen children/adolescents or so on the PJ site.

Many may have been found (as is often the case elsewhere), but comparing statistics of police records of "missing children" from one country to another without common criteria seems pointless.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 09:16:13 AM
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/13120#.Uya9J4VKp1N
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 11:34:38 AM
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/13120#.Uya9J4VKp1N
Interesting article Estu but not really to do with this thread .  Maybe a new thread?


But this is what interests me


· Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal;

That's an awful lot more than the 1/2 dozen children/adolescents or so on the PJ site.

Many may have been found (as is often the case elsewhere), but comparing statistics of police records of "missing children" from one country to another without common criteria seems pointless.

And an awful lot more than Annes original number !!!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 11:43:50 AM
Interesting article Estu but not really to do with this thread .  Maybe a new thread?


But this is what interests me

And an awful lot more than Annes original number !!!

The point of my post is just how easy it is to start a hare running and how difficult it is to stop it even when proven it was the wrong bunny.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 03:24:40 PM
The point of my post is just how easy it is to start a hare running and how difficult it is to stop it even when proven it was the wrong bunny.

I have no problem with that. 150-200 missing minors / 100k population per year is far from insignificant. Many may have been found, and others may be assumed dead, some of whom may be assumed so with little or any evidence.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: jassi on March 17, 2014, 03:44:16 PM
I have no problem with that. 150-200 missing minors / 100k population per year is far from insignificant. Many may have been found, and others may be assumed dead, some of whom may be assumed so with little or any evidence.

0.2% ?

What is the comparable figure for Uk or USA ?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 03:44:59 PM
Your statistics must come from another Galaxy.

In Europe, Portugal is the country with less missing children. You'd better take a look at home.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 03:46:43 PM
There is without doubt a history of child disappearances on the Algarve going back many years.  I have purposely not used the abduction label since abduction has not been proven in several of the cases such as René Hasée (6), Joana Cipriano (8) and Madeleine McCann (almost 4).   There is also an alarming number of reports of British children, mainly girls, being targeted.

Some people choose to disregard these reports referring to them as Maddie hype, bogus, fantasy and the such like.  Whatever ones views are, there is without doubt something sinister going on which the Portuguese authorities appear unable or unwilling to stop.

Please discuss.


You better get your sources cleared out. Apart from those 3 kids, there are none other missing in almost 2 decades.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 04:14:09 PM

You better get your sources cleared out. Apart from those 3 kids, there are none other missing in almost 2 decades.

Don't blame John for that, not his fault.

It was my fault for quoting the European Commission's findings. Perhaps this shouldn't have been allowed...


European Commission – Directorate-General for Justice
Missing children in the European Union Mapping, data collection and statistics
(2013)

http://resourcecentre.savethechildren.se/sites/default/files/documents/1709_missing_children_study_2013_en_original_1.pdf
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 04:24:49 PM
Sorry John.

And you should learn to read those reports.

There is no evidence that there were any cases in Algarve. Even the cases about missing children (undefined) reported about Portugal need to be crossed with the data about children recovered. Most of them were runaway teenagers and parental abductions, resolved by now.

I'm very understanding about ignorance, but I'm very fierce about malice.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 05:00:49 PM
Your statistics must come from another Galaxy.

In Europe, Portugal is the country with less missing children. You'd better take a look at home.

The European Commission seems to be fair enough to me.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 05:03:26 PM
Sorry John.

And you should learn to read those reports.

There is no evidence that there were any cases in Algarve. Even the cases about missing children (undefined) reported about Portugal need to be crossed with the data about children recovered. Most of them were runaway teenagers and parental abductions, resolved by now.

I'm very understanding about ignorance, but I'm very fierce about malice.

I'd be interested in how may children were recovered. No doubt many were, as would be the case elswhere as well.
Do you have any figures on how many of these 150/200 kids per 100k population have been found?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 10:52:01 PM

You better get your sources cleared out. Apart from those 3 kids, there are none other missing in almost 2 decades.

Only if you forget about these kids...

Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared in 1991.

Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared in 1994.

Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11, disappeared in 1998.

Rui Periera, aged 13, disappeared in 1999.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)


Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 17, 2014, 10:55:10 PM
Three thousand kids couldve gone without a trace for all I care.

NONE OF IT proves Madeleine was abducted.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 11:06:36 PM
The European Commission seems to be fair enough to me.

I found these figures contained within the report to be quite interesting.  A surprising disparency between Spain and Portugal.


France, the Czech Republic, Luxemburg, Malta and Denmark all report around 300-350 missing children cases per 100,000 children; Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal; In Latvia, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Estonia, Romania, between 81 and 112 children are reported missing; In Denmark, Finland, Poland and Italy, between 50 and 75 reports on missing children are filed each year per 100,000 children; The lowest share of missing children cases in those aged 17 or less is found in Netherlands, Greece, Spain and Cyprus, where it ranges between 6 and 35 reports per 100,000 children; With some exceptions (Estonia, Spain, Lithuania), the annual figures were consistent and no major breaks in the data (missing data or inexplicably high/ low jumps in values) could be detected. In the majority of the Member States, there appears to be an upward trend within the period towards more cases of missing children being reported per 100,000 children.

http://resourcecentre.savethechildren.se/sites/default/files/documents/1709_missing_children_study_2013_en_original_1.pdf
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 11:26:31 PM
Three thousand kids couldve gone without a trace for all I care.
NONE OF IT proves Madeleine was abducted.

Hmmm?   >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 08:54:11 AM
I found these figures contained within the report to be quite interesting.  A surprising disparency between Spain and Portugal.


France, the Czech Republic, Luxemburg, Malta and Denmark all report around 300-350 missing children cases per 100,000 children; Around 150-200 cases of missing children per every 100,000 children are reported annually in Slovakia, Lithuania and Portugal; In Latvia, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Estonia, Romania, between 81 and 112 children are reported missing; In Denmark, Finland, Poland and Italy, between 50 and 75 reports on missing children are filed each year per 100,000 children; The lowest share of missing children cases in those aged 17 or less is found in Netherlands, Greece, Spain and Cyprus, where it ranges between 6 and 35 reports per 100,000 children; With some exceptions (Estonia, Spain, Lithuania), the annual figures were consistent and no major breaks in the data (missing data or inexplicably high/ low jumps in values) could be detected. In the majority of the Member States, there appears to be an upward trend within the period towards more cases of missing children being reported per 100,000 children.

http://resourcecentre.savethechildren.se/sites/default/files/documents/1709_missing_children_study_2013_en_original_1.pdf

I found the report interesting, but the raw statistics may be misleading, for example, if there are different laws or customs concerning when missing kids are actually reported, or whether kids who are found quickly appear in the records submitted or not, the amount of data that could be retrieved by the researchers, etc.

The report also flags the lack of any kind of common approach - the lengthy list of recommendations is quite impressive.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 09:51:03 AM
Three thousand kids couldve gone without a trace for all I care.

NONE OF IT proves Madeleine was abducted.

Unless some independent witness with a camera handy who happened to snap someone stuffing her in the boot of a car (also handily snapping the plate number), and screeching off loudly enough for other independent witnesses to roll up their blinds at night to look out of their windows in the nick of time, what proof would you expect?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Estuarine on March 18, 2014, 10:31:35 AM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/madeleine-mccann

http://content.met.police.uk/News/Update-on-the-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-Madeleine-McCann/1400020366124/1257246745756

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, The Metropolitan Police Service and The PJ archiving reports do not use the word "abduction"; consistently they use the terms "missing" and "disappearance".
As these are the only authoritative voices I would choose to believe them.

The MPS say they are working two theories not one
We are working on the basis of two possibilities here. One is that Madeleine is still alive; and the second that she is sadly dead.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 10:43:08 AM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/madeleine-mccann

http://content.met.police.uk/News/Update-on-the-investigation-into-the-disappearance-of-Madeleine-McCann/1400020366124/1257246745756

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, The Metropolitan Police Service and The PJ archiving reports do not use the word "abduction"; consistently they use the terms "missing" and "disappearance".
As these are the only authoritative voices I would choose to believe them.

The MPS say they are working two theories not one
We are working on the basis of two possibilities here. One is that Madeleine is still alive; and the second that she is sadly dead.

I don't have a problem with that. In the absence of irrefutable evidence that she had, indeed, been abducted, what else are authorities supposed to file a missing child case as?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 18, 2014, 04:52:40 PM
I don't have a problem with that. In the absence of irrefutable evidence that she had, indeed, been abducted, what else are authorities supposed to file a missing child case as?

A missing child?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 05:33:04 PM
Where are we on this issue?

Is anyone still adamant that only 3-6 children have ever been missing/abducted in Portugal over the past ten years?

Even if there are more missing kids in the UK than in some other countries, are all the criteria the same?

Who has statistics about how many missing kids were found? And what happened to them when they were missing? If some were sadly abducted / abused and / or murdered, where are the statistics to distinguish these cases?

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 19, 2014, 03:23:13 AM
Unless some independent witness with a camera handy who happened to snap someone stuffing her in the boot of a car (also handily snapping the plate number), and screeching off loudly enough for other independent witnesses to roll up their blinds at night to look out of their windows in the nick of time, what proof would you expect?

Anything would do.

A fingerprint, some stray hairs, a valid sighting...?

No, what we've got is -

eyewitnesses identifying Gerry a man who looked like Gerry
the efit of Gerry the man who looks like Gerry being suppressed
the lies changing stories of the parents
the odd behaviour of the parents including (especially) the lack of searching for their baby and leaving them to cry alone in the first place
the prevarication and lack of cooperation of THE ENTIRE TAPAS CREW.
the Dogs
the DNA

How on earth Team McCann can add up all the above and come up with UNKNOWN PERP, is beyond me.

It makes no sense from any direction.

 8-)(--)

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 19, 2014, 09:55:35 AM
Where are we on this issue?

Is anyone still adamant that only 3-6 children have ever been missing/abducted in Portugal over the past ten years?

Even if there are more missing kids in the UK than in some other countries, are all the criteria the same?

Who has statistics about how many missing kids were found? And what happened to them when they were missing? If some were sadly abducted / abused and / or murdered, where are the statistics to distinguish these cases?

Could be the abductors have moved on to a quieter location because of all the ruckus in Portugal after May 2007.  We will never know for sure but it could be that Madeleine's disappearance and the publicity which followed it saved many other children from the same fate.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 19, 2014, 11:18:58 AM
Unless some independent witness with a camera handy who happened to snap someone stuffing her in the boot of a car (also handily snapping the plate number), and screeching off loudly enough for other independent witnesses to roll up their blinds at night to look out of their windows in the nick of time, what proof would you expect?

 8@??)(

Such a sensible answer,

But if some people are determined NOT to believe there was an abduction, and that the Mccanns "Dunit", NOTHING would convince them ... even that, I fear, Carana.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 19, 2014, 11:21:55 AM
Could be the abductors have moved on to a quieter location because of all the ruckus in Portugal after May 2007.  We will never know for sure but it could be that Madeleine's disappearance and the publicity which followed it saved many other children from the same fate.
Let's hope so Angelo.  But an abducted child is an abducted child, whether in PT or Timbuktu.  8(8-))
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 19, 2014, 11:41:07 AM
8@??)(

Such a sensible answer,

But if some people are determined NOT to believe there was an abduction, and that the Mccanns "Dunit", NOTHING would convince them ... even that, I fear, Carana.

I would welcome hard evidence either way, however, on the available intelligence, the balance of probability does not point to an abduction.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 19, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
Let's hope so Angelo.  But an abducted child is an abducted child, whether in PT or Timbuktu.  8(8-))

I agree but the point I was making was that after Madeleine things appeared to have gone quiet in the Algarve except for the odd copy cat case like the Carolina Santos fiasco.  Poor little Madeleine gave up her life to help others in a way of speaking.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: LagosBen on March 19, 2014, 02:31:59 PM
How will Luz and co explain this latest news away?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: VIXTE on March 19, 2014, 03:14:50 PM
How will Luz and co explain this latest news away?

They would say it never happened or ignore it as if it was never announced..
 8)--))
Not a word from JM.. although it was reported in CM..

I think they are currently looking at ways how to make AW sound incompetent..
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on March 19, 2014, 06:56:25 PM
I agree but the point I was making was that after Madeleine things appeared to have gone quiet in the Algarve except for the odd copy cat case like the Carolina Santos fiasco.  Poor little Madeleine gave up her life to help others in a way of speaking.
I guess by that you mean her normal life?

Carolina Santos was well before Madeleine.  In December 2006  before the May 2007.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on March 19, 2014, 06:58:34 PM
Could be the abductors have moved on to a quieter location because of all the ruckus in Portugal after May 2007.  We will never know for sure but it could be that Madeleine's disappearance and the publicity which followed it saved many other children from the same fate.

Quite possibly - in the Algarve. If it was some casual labourer /employee / busker / whatever who could move elsewhere and is still at large somewhere, other children could be at risk elsewhere. On the other hand, someone could also currently be in jail somewhere for unrelated offences.

In the MariLuz case (Spain), the guy should have been in jail, but somehow the authorities lost his trace, then he moved again just after her disappearance.

In the Dickinson case (France), it was by sheer coincidence that a US immigration officer read the story in a UK paper and discovered that that guy was in prison in Miami for other offences. He had apparently carried out a variety of offences in several countries.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Mr Moderator on April 23, 2014, 04:44:48 PM
Sadie.  There is already a thread devoted to the disappearance of children in Portugal.

Just some of the disappeared.


Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared in 1991.

Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared in 1994.

Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11, disappeared in 1998.

Rui Periera, aged 13, disappeared in 1999.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Davel on April 23, 2014, 05:21:19 PM
Sadie.  There is already a thread devoted to the disappearance of children in Portugal.

Just some of the disappeared.


Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared in 1991.

Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared in 1994.

Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11, disappeared in 1998.

Rui Periera, aged 13, disappeared in 1999.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg) (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

Please note that none of these have been taken by an estranged parent
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 24, 2014, 12:26:54 PM
I think it is well worth repeating this post originally posted by Sadie.



Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart



[This post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information]
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on April 24, 2014, 12:42:33 PM
THank you, Mr Moderator and thankyou John

On average every eighteen months to two years a child disappeared.  If what appears to be true is correct, then the abductors  Modus Operandii changed after the five year break + the elite apaprantly being picked up but released with a warning..
It changed from basically being in the North around Porto and Guimares to the western Algarve in the south 300 miles awy.

It also changed from being quite few boys with only one 7 year old girl to being all girls ... and mainly younger children ... but there were youngish children in the 1990's too. 


Now I must get on.  Please excuse me.

Joana is a pretty girl, John.  The photo shown above doesn't do her justice and is of a very young Joana




Haven't time atm to go scrabbling around for a better, more recent photo
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on April 24, 2014, 12:50:59 PM
I think it is well worth repeating this post originally posted by Sadie.



Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart



[This post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information]

I think there should be  new forum rule about not encouraging delusions.


Can you please remove Joana and Caroline from the list as I find the using a murdered little girl and a complete fabrication (in Carolina's case) to forward Sadie's bizarre fantasies offensive.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2014, 01:03:58 PM
I think there should be  new forum rule about not encouraging delusions.


Can you please remove Joana and Caroline from the list as I find the using a murdered little girl and a complete fabrication (in Carolina's case) to forward Sadie's bizarre fantasies offensive.

I disagree about Joana as there is no concrete evidence that she ever even got back home.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Benice on April 24, 2014, 01:19:15 PM
I disagree about Joana as there is no concrete evidence that she ever even got back home.

I disagree too because inspite of the fact that torture at the PJ police station was proved -  and the motive  for murder as claimed by the PJ was thrown out by the court -  there wasn't even a retrial! .....let alone an admission that an almighty miscarriage of justice may have occurred.    Unbelievable! 
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 24, 2014, 01:20:15 PM

But her mother confessed, that's good enough for me.

The bitch murdered her, get over it.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2014, 01:39:55 PM
But her mother confessed, that's good enough for me.

The bitch murdered her, get over it.

John seems to feel the same way as you.

I don't.

There is nothing beyond a reconstruction in dubious circumstances presented in court. The defendants were poor, with little education and had a meagre pro-bono defence. There were "confessions" (inadmissible in court, but in equally dubious circumstances). That seems to be all that is required to get a life sentence.

Joana may indeed be dead, but she may not be.

No one was looking for the third girl in the US case...

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 24, 2014, 01:40:58 PM
John seems to feel the same way as you.

I don't.

There is nothing beyond a reconstruction in dubious circumstances presented in court. The defendants were poor, with little education and had a meagre pro-bono defence. There were "confessions" (inadmissible in court, but in equally dubious circumstances). That seems to be all that is required to get a life sentence.

Joana may indeed be dead, but she may not be.

No one was looking for the third girl in the US case...

Her mum didn't confess to killing her either.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2014, 01:45:29 PM
But her mother confessed, that's good enough for me.

The bitch murdered her, get over it.

So, if a child close to you had disappeared on holiday, I should just accept that you were responsible if half-myths in that direction had been leaked to the tabloids?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 24, 2014, 01:51:19 PM
So, if a child close to you had disappeared on holiday, I should just accept that you were responsible if half-myths in that direction had been leaked to the tabloids?

No, you should always judge by gut instinct & irrational hatred of others.

A method that hasn't failed me yet.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 24, 2014, 01:56:41 PM
The title of this thread is child abduction in Portugal.

As both Carolina and Joana were abducted I find no reason not to include them.

For the benefit of new readers though I will add the following...

Carolina Santos was playing in the street outside her parents cafe when she was abducted/led away by a Moroccan man who was known to villagers as a troublemaker.  He didn't get far as Carolina's father came out of their cafe and saw her being led off.  The perpetrator later said he did it to teach Mr Santos a lesson following an earlier argument.  An abduction but one which fortunately only lasted a few moments.

Joana Cipriano disappeared while on an errand to the shops, she has never been seen since.  Her mother and uncle later confessed to being involved and were in due course convicted of abduction and murder.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=71.0
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Cariad on April 24, 2014, 02:14:53 PM
The title of this thread is child abduction in Portugal.

As both Carolina and Joana were abducted I find no reason not to include them.

For the benefit of new readers though I will add the following...

Carolina Santos was playing in the street outside her parents cafe when she was abducted/led away by a Moroccan man who was known to villagers as a troublemaker.  He didn't get far as Carolina's father came out of their cafe and saw her being led off.  The perpetrator later said he did it to teach Mr Santos a lesson following an earlier argument.  An abduction but one which fortunately only lasted a few moments.

Joana Cipriano disappeared while on an errand to the shops, she has never been seen since.  Her mother and uncle later confessed to being involved and were in due course convicted of abduction and murder.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=71.0

When was Joana abducted? I don't know a great deal about the case, admittedly, but I thought she was murdered at home?

Edit:

- Leonor and her brother, João Cipriano, uncle of the eight-year-old girl, were accused of murder, desecration of a corpse and concealment.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2990.0

They weren't accused of abduction.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 24, 2014, 02:20:49 PM
When was Joana abducted? I don't know a great deal about teh case, admittedly, but I thought she was murdered at home?

Edit:

- Leonor and her brother, João Cipriano, uncle of the eight-year-old girl, were accused of murder, desecration of a corpse and concealment.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2990.0

They weren't accused of abduction.

According to the last Deposition made by Leonor Cipriano (Joana's mother), she claims to now tell the whole truth, she states that it was the girl's uncle who abducted her in a failed attempt to sell her to foreigners. The uncle for his part has not disputed this version.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2014, 02:30:58 PM
No, you should always judge by gut instinct & irrational hatred of others.

A method that hasn't failed me yet.

Now that you've reminded me of that... some people couldn't work out the difference between a paedophile and a paediatrician.

I hope that you weren't one of them.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 24, 2014, 02:35:06 PM
Now that you've reminded me of that... some people couldn't work out the difference between a paedophile and a paediatrician.

I hope that you weren't one of them.

No, I remember that.  She had paedo painted on her house by a baying mob of dyslexics.


In 2001, a special was released. It tackled paedophilia and the moral panic in parts of the British media following the murder of Sarah Payne, focusing on the name-and-shame campaign conducted by the News of the World in its wake. This included an incident in 2000 in which a paediatrician in Newport had the word "PAEDO" daubed in yellow paint on her home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_Eye
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: sadie on April 24, 2014, 10:37:40 PM
I would welcome hard evidence either way, however, on the available intelligence, the balance of probability does not point to an abduction.
In YOUR opinion, but not in the opinion of the Authorities, or the majority of thinking people.  Not one person that I know, who is a thinking person, believes that the Mccanns had anything to do with it.

But carry on .............
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 25, 2014, 11:14:19 AM
In YOUR opinion, but not in the opinion of the Authorities, or the majority of thinking people.  Not one person that I know, who is a thinking person, believes that the Mccanns had anything to do with it.

But carry on .............

I have not found that to be true but then that depends on your definition of a 'thinking person'?  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: slartibartfast on April 25, 2014, 01:27:11 PM
In YOUR opinion, but not in the opinion of the Authorities, or the majority of thinking people.  Not one person that I know, who is a thinking person, believes that the Mccanns had anything to do with it.

But carry on .............

Ask the dogs Sadie.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Carana on April 25, 2014, 01:37:50 PM
When was Joana abducted? I don't know a great deal about the case, admittedly, but I thought she was murdered at home?

Edit:

- Leonor and her brother, João Cipriano, uncle of the eight-year-old girl, were accused of murder, desecration of a corpse and concealment.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2990.0

They weren't accused of abduction.

Hmmm. No. But there is nothing concrete to prove what actually happened to this child. The case was wound up in a few days when the big boots from Faro took over the case, with no evidence whatsoever aside from "confessions" in dubious circumstances. No forensics... nothing.

There is a sub-forum on that case on here.

I'm aware of several cases in which family members were eventually found to have been responsible for a child's death and masked it as an abduction. These cases happen and I wasn't born yesterday. However, in this case, I haven't found anything concrete to convince me that either her mother or her uncle were guilty.

Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Brietta on April 25, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
I don’t think the incidence of child abduction is any more prevalent in Portugal than anywhere else.

The geographical location of Portugal makes it a portal both in and out to a wider European market for anyone with criminal intent. 

I imagine it is very difficult and dangerous to police its borders.
It takes a bit of bravery to attempt to thwart Colombian and other South American drug traffickers. http://diariodigital.sapo.pt/news.asp?id_news=689455 

People trafficking and slavery is as prevalent throughout the world as it has ever been and I think its extent is unknown to the general public as much in Britain as it is in Portugal and Europe. 
Organised crime and corruption seems to be at the root of it all.
 
The Protection Project - Portugal [DOC]
The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), The Johns Hopkins University
www.protectionproject.org/human_rights_reports/report_documents/portugal.doc
[accessed 2009]

FORMS OF TRAFFICKING - Women are trafficked to Portugal for prostitution.
In 2001, Brazilian authorities investigated possible Brazilian police involvement in a smuggling ring that sent Brazilian women to Spain and Portugal, where they were forced into prostitution.
Authorities believed that the operation, which involved mostly minors, was tied to the mafia on the Iberian Peninsula.
An estimated 500 Brazilian women were victims of the ring.

All material used herein reproduced under the fair use exception of 17 USC § 107 for noncommercial, nonprofit, and educational use.  PLEASE RESPECT COPYRIGHTS OF COMPONENT ARTICLES.  Cite this webpage as: Patt, Prof. Martin, "Child Prostitution - Portugal", http://gvnet.com/childprostitution/Portugal.htm, [accessed <date>]
http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Portugal.htm

There is no doubt that mystery surrounds the death of Jacinta Rees who the police said committed suicide by hitting herself on the head several times with an axe.  Certainly wouldn’t be my chosen method of killing myself if it is even possible.

Crime theory
One theory about Jacinta's death was that she found out something that cost her life.
The area where she lived is a trafficking route from North Africa and the Middle East for the illegal trade in drugs - mostly hashish - and also in stolen children.

The village of Sao Bras de Alportel is 30km from the resort of Praia de Luz where British child Maddy McCann disappeared.

Her family said child smuggling was an issue Jacinta was concerned about and might have spoken up about.

"Jacinta may have stumbled across something," brother Cameron said.

"She left a note for someone saying she was leaving and she did not know how things would work out and asked that they forgive her, but the police construed it as a suicide note," he said.

"It wasn't a suicide note - she was scared of something. 
http://www.news.com.au/national/jacinta-rees-murdered-covered-up-by-portugal-police/story-e6frfkx0-1225942761917
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Luz on April 27, 2014, 11:47:29 AM
There is without doubt a history of child disappearances on the Algarve going back many years.  I have purposely not used the abduction label since abduction has not been proven in several of the cases such as René Hasée (6) - probably the only case of abduction in south Alentejo Coast, not Algarve. Joana Cipriano (8) - MURDERED by mother & uncle and Madeleine McCann (almost 4).   There is also an alarming number of reports of British children, mainly girls, being targeted. WHERE ARE THE REPORTS?!

Some people choose to disregard these reports referring to them as Maddie hype, bogus, fantasy and the such like.  Whatever ones views are, there is without doubt something sinister going on which the Portuguese authorities appear unable or unwilling to stop.

Please discuss.



Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL



The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4DI/AAAAAAAAA9c/xEl6aSOrbrg/s200/00004tse.jpg)

2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N70oRM4FI/AAAAAAAAA9s/aCzpfm7dObQ/s200/00002328.jpg)
 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)

(http://i.imgur.com/gMcWzwU.jpg?2)

4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6TIRM4CI/AAAAAAAAA9U/fLtzJp3BIBw/s200/00005brq.jpg)

5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3N6S4RM4BI/AAAAAAAAA9M/szo6Hv_kJXI/s200/000066bd.jpg)

On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.

(http://i.imgur.com/vh2l5EW.jpg?5)

7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man. PROVEN FALSE ALERT by GNR in 2006

(http://i.imgur.com/Jibv9GI.jpg?1)

8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/R3OHK4RM4MI/AAAAAAAAA-k/NPMCERrUzpE/s200/31_2007.jpg)


I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart



[This post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information]

When you imply other children were abducted or there were attempts then you must prove you words with, at least, dates and places where charges were made to the authorities.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 27, 2014, 01:48:39 PM
When you imply other children were abducted or there were attempts then you must prove you words with, at least, dates and places where charges were made to the authorities.

I put your failure to comprehend my post down to the language barrier.  The opening comment clearly indicates that the children are disappeared and may not necessarily have been abducted.  That said however the general consensus would be that in most cases they were abducted.

If you seek proof then I'm afraid you will have to ask the Portuguese Police since it is they who investigated the cases.

PS  This forum does not take sides contrary to your removed post.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: drummer on April 27, 2014, 10:27:23 PM
When you imply other children were abducted or there were attempts then you must prove you words with, at least, dates and places where charges were made to the authorities.

It seems the authorities withheld this info Luz, how can we prove it? SY must be aware and obviously have enough info to release it to the public. How can we have info of dates, charges etc. You proclaim to have more info than we do, did it happen or not Luz iyo?
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on April 28, 2014, 01:55:30 AM
When you imply other children were abducted or there were attempts then you must prove you words with, at least, dates and places where charges were made to the authorities.

It seems the authorities withheld this info Luz, how can we prove it? SY must be aware and obviously have enough info to release it to the public. How can we have info of dates, charges etc. You proclaim to have more info than we do, did it happen or not Luz iyo?

Luz is living in cloud cuckoo land if she believes for a minute that children weren't abducted in Portugal.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: Luz on August 27, 2014, 10:16:09 AM
That is not true Luz.  There have been several attempts to snatch children over the last several years around the Algarve.  Can I remind you of some like the man chased from the child's bedroom, the attempt to take a child in a cafe and an attempt by someone on a motorcycle to lift a Londonderry girl while on holiday.  There are probably many others which like these have never even been followed up.

If you believe for a minute that these attempted abductions are fake then you are closing your eyes to reality.

Quite late, but in any way relevant.
Some of the cases you report in the Algarve never happened, like the Cafe little girl. That was a Mccann stunt, just to make believe Algarve was dangerous.
There never was a man chasing a child in a bedroom, that was UK MSM make believe, and you fell for it. Where is the mother of that child? Where is the complaint to the police?!
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on August 27, 2014, 11:01:13 AM
Quite late, but in any way relevant.
Some of the cases you report in the Algarve never happened, like the Cafe little girl. That was a Mccann stunt, just to make believe Algarve was dangerous.
There never was a man chasing a child in a bedroom, that was UK MSM make believe, and you fell for it. Where is the mother of that child? Where is the complaint to the police?!

I am quite prepared to consider the possibility that these other incidents were fabricated Luz but without proof of some sort where does one start?

The list of incidents as it stands includes:

 APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). s.e.x assault on 10-year-old girl.

JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on nine-year-old girl.

JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.

OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on eight-year-old girl

CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.

MARCH 2007: Praa da Luz, attempt to snatch 4-year-old Tirna Duncan by man on a motorcycle.

MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl’s bed.
Title: Re: Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?
Post by: John on August 27, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
No wonder the Portuguese police have no record of this incident!

After being chased this man shoved the moped in the back of a white van before driving off!


A Donegal mother has sensationally revealed a man matching the description of a Madeline McCann kidnap suspect tried to snatch her child in the same place just weeks before Maddie vanished. The man tried to grab Tirna Duncan, who was just four years old at the time, but her mum Shauna Duncan yelled at the creep and managed to startle him and he then raced off his on his moped in Praia da Luz, Portugal. Shauna believes that if the beast had managed to take her daughter Tirna that Maddie would still be here today. They reported the attempted kidnap to the Gardaí and the British Embassy after hearing about the disappearance of four year old Maddie. However it has been revealed that despite these revelations she has NEVER been quizzed by the Portuguese or British detectives. Shauna revealed all in an exclusive interview with the Irish Sun today, “Maddie would still be here if that disgusting creep had managed to take my Tirna. “If we hadn’t shouted, he would have lifted her, I seen the creep lurking around our flat everyday during our stay there in March 2007. “No matter when I looked, he’d be there, he was watching our children. The family’s two teenage daughters had also been followed by the creep and they ran off when they spotted him. It was also revealed that a private detective visited the family and showed Tirna the sketch of the suspect, Shauna recalls her saying, “That’s the man who tried to get me.” Shauna told how a Portuguese private detective travelled to their Co. Donegal home where they then lived to ask them about what happened. Shauna said that when Tirna confirmed the sketch of the suspect was the man that tried to kidnap her, the detective said, “That’s all I wanted to see – her reaction.” “We had never seen the picture before but it was exactly like the description I gave to the British Embassy. She said the private detective told her he believed the man was working with an accomplice. One theory is that Madeline was taken by an organised crime gang who ‘cased’ her apartment in the days before. Shauna Duncan and her family have since moved from Donegal back to Northern Ireland not long after the detective visited and she has since changed her phone number. “I never heard anymore about it and life just went on. She did say because Maddie and Tirna are just weeks apart in age her daughter’s birthday often leads her to think of vanished Maddie. “I do think maybe I didn’t do my bit but I’ve been ready to speak to the police and anyone else looking into it for seven years and I still am.

www.milforddonegal.net/local-news/item/donegal-mother-reveals-maddie-suspect-tried-to-kidnap-her-girl.html

(http://i.imgur.com/tmOcBir.jpg?1)