UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Davel on May 11, 2015, 02:48:51 PM

Title: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 11, 2015, 02:48:51 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman


973

3124-3277
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 11, 2015, 08:27:31 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman

No (IMO), I don't find the word "certainly" to be acceptable. ETA: the word "certainly" doesn't seem to appear in the original text.

On the one hand, I don't think that Grime / Harrison were clear about the limitations of the dogs, nor about the fact that no significance should be attached to alerts in the absence of corroborating forensic evidence in the "dog-selling" stage. Portugal wasn't familiar with such dogs, so I can understand in a way how Amaral & co., could have felt that they were close to hitting the "jackpot" when they did alert.

On the other hand, the caveats were clear in the reports, but Amaral seems to have ignored them. Neither did he understand the forensic results associated with those alerts, which should have been an indication that that avenue wasn't going anywhere.

I don't see how any casual reader, who assumes that the former coordinator was indeed a highly knowledgeable and seasoned expert, could fail to come to the conclusion that she did indeed die there when in reality there is no evidence to support it.

Why would anyone who believed in Amaral's "thesis" continue to be vigilant?

A tragedy of errors...

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 08:44:21 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman
I think it's a prime example of the idiocy (or is it something darker...?) of the author.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 10:44:45 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman


Even considering the hard sell of the dogs combined with the desire to close the case it is still surprising the police behaved like complete amateurs.  Once the situation was explained the stubbornness with which the original misinterpretation of the dogs' alerts was promoted, to the extent it was the excuse to declare the McCanns arguido is extraordinary.

Even the highly transferable nature of the odour associated with human remains was poorly understood with people being asked about death and bleeding within the apartment not if they had been in contact with a dead person.

For example police officers were not asked if they had been in contact with bodies.
Holidaymakers more recently in residence were not asked were not asked if they had used luggage stored in a room in which a person had died ~ or suffered a recent family bereavement.
The holiday maker who was a surgical assistant was not asked what her work entailed.

Once the theory had been decided and the book written, that was it, no going back ... and the campaign proper was under way.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2015, 11:59:49 PM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2015, 12:14:39 AM
The dogs gave their evidence and SY are following up on it. The dogs won't alert unless they are certain! SY will be further investigating their alerts re new forensic tests. The British police do not ignore professional British police crime dog evidence. If death did occur and the body was moved then the car boot is the obvious place to search for potential evidence. If you find any possible matching evidence in that location and other witness evidence then the police become very suspicious. They won't ignore the dog alerts in this case as recent events indicate.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02933/mccann-search-port_2933254b.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:36:14 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

Under no circumstance is it possible to determine whose remains a VRD may be alerting to without a body being discovered.  So he may have used his words carefully but IMO not carefully enough.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:40:33 AM
The dogs gave their evidence and SY are following up on it. The dogs won't alert unless they are certain! SY will be further investigating their alerts re new forensic tests. The British police do not ignore professional British police crime dog evidence. If death did occur and the body was moved then the car boot is the obvious place to search for potential evidence. If you find any possible matching evidence in that location and other witness evidence then the police become very suspicious. They won't ignore the dog alerts in this case as recent events indicate.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02933/mccann-search-port_2933254b.jpg)

Dogs do not give evidence ... they indicate places where evidence may be found ... Eddie and Keela's work in Praia da Luz uncovered no forensic evidence which implicated Madeleine McCann's parents in her disappearance.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2015, 02:50:13 AM
Under no circumstance is it possible to determine whose remains a VRD may be alerting to without a body being discovered.  So he may have used his words carefully but IMO not carefully enough.
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2015, 07:26:56 AM
Dogs do not give evidence ... they indicate places where evidence may be found ... Eddie and Keela's work in Praia da Luz uncovered no forensic evidence which implicated Madeleine McCann's parents in her disappearance.

Go ask Adrian Prout what he thinks about Eddie. The police found no forensic evidence but put all their focus on him after Eddie's alert (they said he wasn't a suspect). Underestimate reliable and case proven police dogs at your peril. What they say publicly and what they think privately can be worlds apart.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 07:31:30 AM
From what I can see amaral has lied to his readers. He has seriously misled them. Most of his support comes from the fact that people believe his lies.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 07:54:10 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

there is no "if"  there.....it is quite clear...the cadaver odour could only have come from one person.....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 12, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
From what I can see amaral has lied to his readers. He has seriously misled them. Most of his support comes from the fact that people believe his lies.

I agree.

The fact that he gave his readers no clue whatsoever  that he had never met or spoken to Kate McCann in his life - and had only met Gerry once was blatently dishonest IMO  - as people buying his book thought they were getting a first hand account.

Similarly - his readers would have no idea that on Day One (4th May) he was busily engaged elsewhere being made an arguido himself -  as he made no mention of that either.

The rest of his book is littered with lies, half-truths, lies by omission and nasty innuendo.

To say his readers were misled - particularly about the dogs  - is putting it mildly IMO.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 10:23:48 AM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.
Oh well back to the drawing board  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

Or his editor.

But that caution went out of the window with his narration:

In the next 50 minutes I will prove that the child was not abducted and died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz (No. 41).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:05:51 PM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.

It is actually quite a wide ranging topic which was milked for all it was worth by TV pundits such as Amaral, Cristovão and Sargento, with the original misinterpretation of all the evidence, including the erroneous conclusions he reached through ignorance? of how it actually works as far as the dogs are concerned being churned out continually to an audience who were led to believe in the 'professional judgement' of these 'experts'.

The Portuguese audience were not misled by poor translations.  If they bought the book it was the original. 

Any mistranslations in his book ... which actually were nothing to do with him except to eat into his profiteering ... have been accepted by an English or French target audience ... just as the mistranslation of parts of the files has been.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 12:17:43 PM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.


Existiam sinais de morte no apartamento 5A. Era agora necessário comprovar que naquele apartamento, antes de 3 de Maio de 2007, ninguém tinha morrido. Os registos do Ocean Club não relatavam qualquer incidente desse tipo, os bombeiros e serviços paramédicos locais também desconheciam qualquer morte no apartamento. Os anteriores proprietários também não conheciam a ocorrência de qualquer morte. Concluiu-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine Beth McCann.



OK, I agree that I can't see certainly in there and I should have checked the PT version prior to making a comment.
 
However, I understand that sentence to mean: The conclusion, therefore, was that that cadaver scent could only have come from one person: Madeleine Beth McCann.

Or have I misunderstood the original?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 01:25:47 PM
No (IMO), I don't find the word "certainly" to be acceptable.

On the one hand, I don't think that Grime / Harrison were clear about the limitations of the dogs, nor about the fact that no significance should be attached to alerts in the absence of corroborating forensic evidence in the "dog-selling" stage. Portugal wasn't familiar with such dogs, so I can understand in a way how Amaral & co., could have felt that they were close to hitting the "jackpot" when they did alert.

On the other hand, the caveats were clear in the reports, but Amaral seems to have ignored them. Neither did he understand the forensic results associated with those alerts, which should have been an indication that that avenue wasn't going anywhere.

I don't see how any casual reader, who assumes that the former coordinator was indeed a highly knowledgeable and seasoned expert, could fail to come to the conclusion that she did indeed die there when in reality there is no evidence to support it.

Why would anyone who believed in Amaral's "thesis" continue to be vigilant?

A tragedy of errors...

Not at the dog-selling stage, no.

But Harrison's second report, written some 3 months before Amaral was booted off the case, and fully and legally accessible to Amaral, at least the point he was booted off, makes abundantly plain what limitations should be placed on (uncorroborated) dog alerts.

Amaral only had to read Harrison's report.

In fairness, even Grime says that uncorroborated dog alerts have no evidential value.

Amaral only had to read these things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 01:28:31 PM
It's true to say that Amaral's team could find no evidence of abduction or of woke and wandered. They were skeptical of Jane Tanner's sighting and found the statements of the Tapas 9 less than believable. Lee Rainbow allegedly agreed that there was cause to look at the parents. Hence in July 2007 Mark Harrison was called in to give his opinion on how to conduct a search for a dead body rather than a live child, something he saw as a reasonable assumption.

I think the alerts confirmed the investigator's suspicions rather than the suspicions having arisen from the alerts. Amaral's evidence is all circumstantial, but he believed that it was enough to reach a conclusion.

This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases.

It was Harrison who suggested using dogs;

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Not at the dog-selling stage, no.

But Harrison's second report, written some 3 months before Amaral was booted off the case, and fully and legally accessible to Amaral, at least the point he was booted off, makes abundantly plain what limitations should be placed on (uncorroborated) dog alerts.

Amaral only had to read Harrison's report.

In fairness, even Grime says that uncorroborated dog alerts have no evidential value.

Amaral only had to read these things.

And yet he chose not to take those reports into account... why would that be?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 01:40:00 PM
It's true to say that Amaral's team could find no evidence of abduction or of woke and wandered. They were skeptical of Jane Tanner's sighting and found the statements of the Tapas 9 less than believable. Lee Rainbow allegedly agreed that there was cause to look at the parents. Hence in July 2007 Mark Harrison was called in to give his opinion on how to conduct a search for a dead body rather than a live child, something he saw as a reasonable assumption.

I think the alerts confirmed the investigator's suspicions rather than the suspicions having arisen from the alerts. Amaral's evidence is all circumstantial, but he believed that it was enough to reach a conclusion.

This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases.

It was Harrison who suggested using dogs;

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
amarals conclusions do not follow the evidence...he has basically lied and misled people. As a policeman it would be expected his opinions would based on evidence and be honest. they are neither
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Hmmmm.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:00:58 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 12, 2015, 02:04:34 PM
And yet he chose not to take those reports into account... why would that be?

Because  - instead of following the evidence and arriving at a conclusion - he arrived at his conclusion first - then cherry-picked any 'evidence' which supported that conclusion - whilst studiously turning a blind eye to anything that didn't.   

The fact that Eddie alerted to cadaverscent suited him.   The reports did not suit him - so he ignored them imo.

It's easy to make a case against anyone using those tactics.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:05:57 PM
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Hmmmm.

That was before searches were conducted, and before Harrison observed how they were conducted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.

And that report was dated 22.07.2007... i.e., well before Amaral was taken off the case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 02:20:45 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.

NO INFERENCE CAN BE DRAWN...could everyone make a note of that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:34:53 PM
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

AMAZING STATISTICS

Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.


(Goncalo Amaral)

And (some) people wonder why Amaral lost!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 02:55:09 PM
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

AMAZING STATISTICS

Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.


(Goncalo Amaral)

And (some) people wonder why Amaral lost!

Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
Said expert never issued any such advice.

Neither did he investigate family or friends.

Instead, following the brief handed to him by the PJ, he looked for evidence that might indicate a particular line of enquiry -- and found none.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 03:34:27 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

And the expert of "26 years' experience" in the PJ didn't realise that that should be standard procedure right from the beginning?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 04:16:20 PM
Compare this:

The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

(Goncalo Amaral, purporting to relate what Mark Harrison said)

With ...

(more in edit).

The penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report:

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz.


Do some people still not get why Amaral lost?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 05:28:43 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?


I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 05:32:31 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 05:46:13 PM
there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.

Misinterpretation is one thing.

Outright fabrication (what Amaral is guilty of) is another ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 07:30:25 PM

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.


That's a delicate way of formulating the situation. ;)

However, he doesn't actually explain why he didn't take into account the dog / forensic reports sent in during his tenure.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 08:17:43 PM

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.

What evidence did Almeida actually refer to? It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators that their already existing suspicions were correct.

1. The fact that the parents insisted on the abduction scenario from the beginning, and publicised their opinion using the media.
2. The whole group appear to have agreed together on the frequency of checking. Their statements are so incoherent that they all appear to be lying.
3. Jane Tanner's sighting is not very convincing, particularly as Gerry didn't even see her. Her description of the man kept changing also.
4. Simple things became disinformation: the question of the opened or closed window; the shutter up or down; the balcony door opened' the front door, locked or open.
5. Nevertheless, before the Media they kept (and keep) declaring their hope on finding their daughter alive: the first time that the hypothesis of the death of the little girl was raised it was, effectively, suggested by the McCann. (Krugel)
6. Although the parents publicised how much they wanted to help the investigation, most of the above points demonstrate how, in fact, they were spreading confusion.
7. The story was changed constantly in order to explain facts as they emerged.
8. Publicity was insisted on despite warnings that this could lead to the child being harmed.
9. Simulation of the scene was suspected.

The work done by the dog team, in Portugal, brought conviction of this slope [ angle] / proposition [ theory] of the investigation, not that it had been ignored previously, but because they [the dogs] could have determined the place where clues / trace evidence could be recovered that could be, scientifically, proven.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 08:35:29 PM
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...

The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 12, 2015, 08:42:21 PM
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 08:45:42 PM
The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.

Ah!

But I take it you would accept that the Portuguese police, witnessing dogs of their type (Keela and Eddie) in action for the first time ever, and knowing nothing about them, would listen to those experienced and adept at interpreting their reactions before reaching any conclusions of their own, and doubtless would consider themselves ill-equipped to contradict what those experienced in use or deployment of the dogs might have to say.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 09:00:43 PM
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event

Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 09:31:10 PM
Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.

Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 09:34:59 PM
Remember that the evidence amaral claimed pointed to the McCanns was discounted by the archiving report
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 09:52:10 PM
Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again

Amaral's theory has as much validy as any other at this moment in time. When someone proves that something else happened, then he is wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 12, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
Amaral's theory has as much validy as any other at this moment in time. When someone proves that something else happened, then he is wrong.

try and keep up..it's not his theory we are criticising..it's his claims that the evidence proves his theory..it doesn't..he is lying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 11:32:57 PM
try and keep up..it's not his theory we are criticising..it's his claims that the evidence proves his theory..it doesn't..he is lying

I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 11:49:28 PM
I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.

It is an elementary mistake to formulate a theory then try to make the evidence fit.  If you prefer to think he actually believed it what you are saying that he is unprofessional and a fool.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 06:52:06 AM
I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.

The fact is amaral had no evidence. he can think what he wants and have what theories he wants...but when he says he can prove Maddie died in the apartment he is lying. He ignored the advice of the experts...Harrison and grime and continued to lie. that is a serious allegation..but it's true
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 08:01:52 AM
It is an elementary mistake to formulate a theory then try to make the evidence fit.  If you prefer to think he actually believed it what you are saying that he is unprofessional and a fool.


I'm not saying he formulated a theory first. There were a lot of things done and said by the parents and their friends which made them look guilty. The dog alerts were the final piece in the jigsaw for the police. All circumstantial evidence, but I think he believed it all added up to proof. You may not like it, but it's a fact that lots of people began to wonder about the parent's story some time before the PJ Files were released.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:06:39 AM


I'm not saying he formulated a theory first. There were a lot of things done and said by the parents and their friends which made them look guilty. The dog alerts were the final piece in the jigsaw for the police. All circumstantial evidence, but I think he believed it all added up to proof. You may not like it, but it's a fact that lots of people began to wonder about the parent's story some time before the PJ Files were released.

lots of people question the parents..fair enough. Amarael lied about the evidence...disgraceful
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:11:12 AM
lots of people question the parents..fair enough. Amarael lied about the evidence...disgraceful

He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:24:39 AM
He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 13, 2015, 08:27:00 AM
Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied

He selected a narrative that fitted the available evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:28:02 AM
Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied

Did Amaral first read Harrison and Grimes full reports ?

Were they written in English and/or Portuguese ?

How many others in the PJ thought the same about the mccanns ?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:29:35 AM
He selected a narrative that fitted the available evidence.

he lied...he stated he could prove maddie died in the apartment.....using the evidence of the dogs...he couldn't..he lied
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:30:23 AM
Did Amaral first read Harrison and Grimes full reports ?

Were they written in English and/or Portuguese ?

How many others in the PJ thought the same about the mccanns ?

Grimes rogatory would have been translated into Portuguese...amaral lied about the dogs
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 13, 2015, 08:30:59 AM
He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:36:16 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

You show how serious amaral's lies were and how they have convinced you. This is what Harrison said about the dogs and he's an expert..

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.


Amaral lied about the dogs and you prove his lies have been believed
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 08:38:53 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

No one is dissing the dogs...I'm dissing amaral and you...you and amaral are ignoring what the experts say about the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:41:03 AM
You show how serious amaral's lies were and how they have convinced you. This is what Harrison said about the dogs and he's an expert..

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.


Amaral lied about the dogs and you prove his lies have been believed


As I have said on numerous occasions, you take this very personally.

Now why is that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:42:05 AM
No one is dissing the dogs...I'm dissing amaral and you...you and amaral are ignoring what the experts say about the alerts

Now when exactly did Grime say the dogs did not alert to a body ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

How silly is that?

The dogs are no-ones enemy.  The dogs were merely doing what they were trained to do and that was to indicate where evidence might be found.

That Mr Amaral needed something to  verify his theory led to his over eagerness to misinterpret that may just be understandable.

What is the excuse of those who perpetuate the myth in the face of reason and expert professional opinion from all disciplines; Mr Amaral may have had a slight one ... what's yours?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 01:19:33 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...

Please tell me what Keela detected?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...

I think that the polite formulation might be the "misinterpretation" of the "misinterpretation" of an interpretation of reactions for undetermined reasons, with cautions as to their possible interpretation.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 01:25:54 PM
Perhaps these are the people the administrators of Amaral's fund will take most note of in choosing their grounds of appeal?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 01:47:48 PM
Please tell me what Keela detected?
blood and cadaver according to the comment Davel has copied above.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 02:33:00 PM
blood and cadaver according to the comment Davel has copied above.

I was asking davel though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
I was asking davel though.
I know you were.  Davel's point was that the comment was inaccurate.  I have I believe highlighted one of the inaccuracies.  Would you agree?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 13, 2015, 04:27:05 PM
Perhaps these are the people the administrators of Amaral's fund will take most note of in choosing their grounds of appeal?

The administrators of the fund for Gonçalo Amaral are not appealing the ruling, Gonçalo Amaral along with his lawyers will be doing that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 05:08:27 PM

What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive. 

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
 algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 05:21:26 PM
The administrators of the fund for Gonçalo Amaral are not appealing the ruling, Gonçalo Amaral along with his lawyers will be doing that.

Lawyers?

He has more than one.

Is one the lawyer who represented him in proceedings just completed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 05:40:13 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Do you have evidence that such algal blooms occurred in early May 2007? Or is it mere speculation on your part?
I love the quote "I read about it somewhere maybe the paper or forums". That is a stunner.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 05:48:25 PM
Interesting piece from an expert:-


Sept. 18 2007 6:11 PM

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?


The parents of Madeleine McCann, the 4-year-old British girl who went missing in Portugal in May, were officially named suspects http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20637334/#.VVFW1pVFDIU
on Sept. 7 by Portuguese police. The change came after developments in the case, including sniffer dogs detecting the "smell of death" on Madeleine's Cuddle Cat toy and her mother's clothes. They did not, however, find a body.

 Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

Torie Bosch is the editor of Future Tense, a project of Slate, the New America Foundation, and Arizona State that looks at the implications of new technologies. ……………………………….......................................................................
 

Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades. But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate. There's speculation that Madeleine died on the night her parents reported her disappearance—which would mean that she passed away four months ago. It's not clear if a detectable scent could linger on her mother's clothes for all that time.

Researchers are trying to determine how long the scent lingers when the body is no longer present, but there are no conclusive results yet—it may be two weeks, or it may be longer. One former Scotland Yard dog handler talking about the McCann case hypothesized that the scent wouldn't last more than a month.

The dogs couldn't necessarily prove anything even if Madeleine's body had been in recent contact with her mother's clothes. Since they didn't turn up any actual remains, investigators had to rely on the "smell of death" itself, an odor that stems from the decomposition process. Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time: The McCanns have sought out attorneys who convinced a judge in Wisconsin that certain dogs were accurate just 22 percent to 38 percent of the time. (The prosecution claimed a success rate of 60 percent to 69 percent.)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains.

A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
………………………………..........................................................

Got a question about today's news? Ask the Explainer.

Explainer thanks Maria Claxton of the South Carolina Search and Rescue Dog Association, Larry Myers of the Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine, and Andrew Rebmann of K9 Specialty Search Associates.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/09/scent_of_a_dead_woman.html

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 06:13:49 PM
Thanks Anna - and we have Amaral concluding in his Book of Lies:

5. The body, the existence  of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.

The only part of the above statement that resembles reality is "The body...cannot be found".  The rest is mendacious hogwash.  And yet we have members of this forum who think this book is so wonderfully factual that it must be disseminated far and wide, the same people who complain bitterly about the accuracy of the Summers and Swan book!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 06:23:26 PM
Do you have evidence that such algal blooms occurred in early May 2007? Or is it mere speculation on your part?
I love the quote "I read about it somewhere maybe the paper or forums". That is a stunner.

There is no evidence to the contrary ... just as there is no evidence of semen or urine contamination ... then if you don't look for something you won't find it, which probably could well be applied to Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
There is no evidence to the contrary ... just as there is no evidence of semen or urine contamination ... then if you don't look for something you won't find it, which probably could well be applied to Madeleine McCann.
I was only asking about the algal bloom. So you postulation is it must be there if there no evidence to suggest  it isn't there.
But blooms that are large enough to cause problems can be seen. So by extension if you can't see it it must be there.
I think I understand that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 06:48:08 PM
Interesting piece from an expert:-


Sept. 18 2007 6:11 PM

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?


The parents of Madeleine McCann, the 4-year-old British girl who went missing in Portugal in May, were officially named suspects http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20637334/#.VVFW1pVFDIU
on Sept. 7 by Portuguese police. The change came after developments in the case, including sniffer dogs detecting the "smell of death" on Madeleine's Cuddle Cat toy and her mother's clothes. They did not, however, find a body.

 Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

Torie Bosch is the editor of Future Tense, a project of Slate, the New America Foundation, and Arizona State that looks at the implications of new technologies. ……………………………….......................................................................
 

Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades. But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate. There's speculation that Madeleine died on the night her parents reported her disappearance—which would mean that she passed away four months ago. It's not clear if a detectable scent could linger on her mother's clothes for all that time.

Researchers are trying to determine how long the scent lingers when the body is no longer present, but there are no conclusive results yet—it may be two weeks, or it may be longer. One former Scotland Yard dog handler talking about the McCann case hypothesized that the scent wouldn't last more than a month.

The dogs couldn't necessarily prove anything even if Madeleine's body had been in recent contact with her mother's clothes. Since they didn't turn up any actual remains, investigators had to rely on the "smell of death" itself, an odor that stems from the decomposition process. Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time: The McCanns have sought out attorneys who convinced a judge in Wisconsin that certain dogs were accurate just 22 percent to 38 percent of the time. (The prosecution claimed a success rate of 60 percent to 69 percent.)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains.

A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
………………………………..........................................................

Got a question about today's news? Ask the Explainer.

Explainer thanks Maria Claxton of the South Carolina Search and Rescue Dog Association, Larry Myers of the Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine, and Andrew Rebmann of K9 Specialty Search Associates.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/09/scent_of_a_dead_woman.html

It is interesting they quote Andy Rebmann as a source. He is an acknowledged expert along with Dr Deb Komar who worked with RCMP and Matthew Zarella who worked with the US Military in 2002 locating MIA's in Vietnam.
http://cadaverdog.com/Associates.html
[cf Rebmann & Zarella]
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:02:02 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Don't you find it a bad coincidence (at the very least) that urine,semen or algae infected flip flops (now that's a first) were left in the only residence out of many inspected,  the one where a child went missing from?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:16:16 PM
It is interesting they quote Andy Rebmann as a source. He is an acknowledged expert along with Dr Deb Komar who worked with RCMP and Matthew Zarella who worked with the US Military in 2002 locating MIA's in Vietnam.
http://cadaverdog.com/Associates.html
[cf Rebmann & Zarella]

Thank you Alice, I will have a read of that, when I have more time.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:28:13 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?
No one can say that no one ever bled in any apartments ever since the hoiday complex was there. Blood can be cleaned away entirely.

The reason no blood was detected (if remnants were there) in the inspected apartments is because the blood dog was not sent in.

P.S. Who are the "several" holidaymakers who bled in 5A? And was their DNA matched to the samples collected? From the area the blood dog had signalled to?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:35:04 PM
No one can say that no one ever bled in any apartments ever since the hoiday complex was there. Blood can be cleaned away entirely.

The reason no blood was detected (even if remnants were there) in the inspected apartments is because the blood dog was not sent in.

P.S. Who are the "several" holidaymakers who bled in 5A? And was their DNA matched to the samples collected? From the area the blood dog had signalled to?

Eddie alerts to blood and apparently no amount of cleaning will remove the scent.

There is a thread that lists all the holidaymakers who bled in 5A. I will have a look and post a link.
I believe the DNA was checked ,but the samples taken from 5a were too small, coming from several people or inconclusive.
One DNA check from 5A was a semen stain on a bedcover, which turned out to belong to a 2 year old child(saliva)


ETA link
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981;topicseen#msg136981
You will have to wade through the posts I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:41:08 PM
Eddie alerts to blood and apparently no amount of cleaning will remove the scent.

There is a thread that lists all the holidaymakers who bled in 5A. I will have a look and post a link.
I believe the DNA was checked ,but the samples taken from 5a were too small, coming from several people or inconclusive.
One DNA check from 5A was a semen stain on a bedcover, which turned out to belong to a 2 year old child(saliva)

Sorry, but what is the point of using Keela then?

Thanks, look forward to reading said thread.

Not sure what point you are making regarding saliva stains.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:46:43 PM
Sorry, but what is the point of using Keela then?

Thanks, look forward to reading said thread.

Not sure what point you are making regarding saliva stains.

Keela only detects blood, therefore she is used for backup of Eddies alerts. If she alerts to the area that Eddie alerted to, then it must be blood.

Why I mentioned the saliva? probably just to show that the other holiday makers were checked for DNA and That was the only match.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 13, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
Don't you find it a bad coincidence (at the very least) that urine,semen or algae infected flip flops (now that's a first) were left in the only residence out of many inspected,  the one where a child went missing from?
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
Keela only detects blood, therefore she is used for backup of Eddies alerts. If she alerts to the area that Eddie alerted to, then it must be blood.

Why I mentioned the saliva? probably just to show that the other holiday makers were checked for DNA and That was the only match.

Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:59:14 PM
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/

I am sure there must be an explanation for that anomaly

 ?>)()<

Thanks Pegasus.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 07:59:25 PM
Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)
Exactly, so back to the original question - don't you find it odd that there were no traces of blood anywhere at all except on McCann-related property?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 08:02:30 PM
Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)


You are welcome, mercury,
The blood found in 5A, was inconclusive as there was very small amount or it was from multiple unidentified
persons. If there was no match it would not have been recorded. Dna swabs were taken from many people.

The link, but you will have to wade through to find them.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981#msg136981
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:10:02 PM
Exactly, so back to the original question - don't you find it odd that there were no traces of blood anywhere at all except on McCann-related property?

No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for
Except, he obviously does alert to microscopic traces of blood as verified by Keela!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:12:31 PM

You are welcome, mercury,
The blood found in 5A, was inconclusive as there was very small amount or it was from multiple unidentified
persons. If there was no match it would not have been recorded. Dna swabs were taken from many people.

The link, but you will have to wade through to find them.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981#msg136981

Ok, no worries. I thought you were suggesting that all the previous several holidaymakers who bled in 5A had their dna taken. And thank you for the link, will have a gander.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:13:45 PM
Except, he obviously does alert to microscopic traces of blood as verified by Keela!

Err, I don't think you can assert that, or even infer it
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 08:14:27 PM
No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for

Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:19:05 PM
Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.

Was he? That's news to me. You got a reference for that Anna? If he was trained as Keela was, I ask again, why the need for that dog? Mr Grime has told us what Eddie was trained to do, and it wasn't to be a forensic blood dog. But you may correct me.

I have to go for a short while but will respond later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 08:22:40 PM
I was only asking about the algal bloom. So you postulation is it must be there if there no evidence to suggest  it isn't there.
But blooms that are large enough to cause problems can be seen. So by extension if you can't see it it must be there.
I think I understand that.

I did not say "must be there"?  I rather think that is what you said I said.

I have given examples of things which may have caused Eddie's sensitive nose to pick up scents to which his training had taught him to react.

Mr Amaral had not thought through all the possibilities, preferring instead to latch on to the one which best suited his theory and would lead, not to finding a missing child, but to the prosecution of her parents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:24:11 PM
Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.

I'm not sure about that, Anna.  I think it is the case with most cadaver dogs that they will detect blood as well, by default, because blood is a constituent part of any corpse.
 
I think the difference between Eddie and Morse is that Morse was desensitised to blood, and the idea of the Keela and Morse combination was that you had one dog to detect blood and another to detect cadaver odour. 

Remember that a reaction from Morse under the US forensic canine programme was accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (not applicable with most cadaver dogs).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:29:01 PM
Err, I don't think you can assert that, or even infer it
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?

Should equal blood but no cadaver scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 08:37:44 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?

Do you know that Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 08:37:54 PM
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/

Don't see any mention of algae in that link, pegasus, it does mention a "swirling current" which would have dispersed any blooms I would imagine.
I also doubt if a dog handler would have exposed his animal to anything as toxic.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 13, 2015, 08:41:49 PM
"The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes"
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
So the hypothesis in the VeM book which has PMI of only 45 mins must be incorrect IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:45:05 PM
Do you know why Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.
Why did Eddie alert to a sex tissue then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
I can't quite fathom why anyone (here) would profess to know better than Mark Harrison ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VRD.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 08:53:08 PM
Why did Eddie alert to a sex tissue then?

Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 08:56:39 PM
Do you know why Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.

Not so  IMO.      Eddie goes in first and if he alerts -  Grime doesn't know whether he alerted to cadaverscent or blood from a dead or living person - because he alerts to both.      He then sends Keela in.  If she alerts at the same place then it is a blood detection because she only alerts to blood - although it still isn't known whether it is blood from a dead or living person,     If she doesn't alert at all at the same place then it's suggestive of cadaverscent.   

If there is no alert at all  from Eddie then Grime didn't need to send Keela in because if there was any blood present  - Eddie would have alerted to it.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:01:03 PM
I'm not sure about that, Anna.  I think it is the case with most cadaver dogs that they will detect blood as well, by default, because blood is a constituent part of any corpse.
 
I think the difference between Eddie and Morse is that Morse was desensitised to blood, and the idea of the Keela and Morse combination was that you had one dog to detect blood and another to detect cadaver odour. 

Remember that a reaction from Morse under the US forensic canine programme was accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (not applicable with most cadaver dogs).


Maybe I misunderstood then, but he was trained on human blood and piglet corpses.
I will check and see where I read that Eddie was a blood dog......If I can find it.

What case was Morse used in, that came to a prosecution, because of him, Ferryman?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:08:05 PM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VDR.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.

Can you name a missing person who has turned up alive after Eddie alerted to cadaver scent?

the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog
. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body
. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.
Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.
He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”
The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.
The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

Police's two 'body dogs' started out as an unwanted pet and a stray destined for the dogs' home.
Their first deployment was to investigate the murder of Barnsley man Shane Collier, but only Frankie proved suitable, and the other dog had to be retired early.
That was when they began to train up springer spaniel Eddie instead, a dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".
The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:12:50 PM

It wasn't possible to teach Eddie to stop alerting to blood.  Victim Recovery Dogs alert to Blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:13:14 PM
Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:15:28 PM
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...

Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 09:17:33 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. Doh!

Eddie was operating within the parameters of his training.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:25:50 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Are you telling me that in Jersey he was tasked with looking for blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:26:42 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

Eddie might not have been sent in to find blood, but he did have the capabilities to detect blood, so it would be necessary to have Keela check his findings, if he had alerted in any other place.
However He never alerted to blood anywhere except 5A. We know this because keela was not used to check out any alerts. So why, no blood anywhere, but 5A?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:28:07 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:29:40 PM
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?
Grime must have used a special "cadaver only" cue...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:31:10 PM
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:31:56 PM
Eddie might not have been sent in to find blood, but he did have the capabilities to detect blood, so it would be necessary to have Keela check his findings, if he had alerted in any other place.
However He never alerted to blood anywhere except 5A. We know this because keela was not used to check out any alerts. So why, no blood anywhere, but 5A?

No blood was found at Eddie's first alert in 5A. Keela didn't go in to the other apartment to check for traces of blood that the human eye can't see. Keela only looks for microscopic blood traces if Eddie alerts. Eddie didn't alert in the other apartments. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent not sniffing every inch of the floor for blood traces humans can't even see.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:35:05 PM
Grime must have used a special "cadaver only" cue...

That's it Mate, don't you come back and tell me it was blood.  That's just for Disasters and Earthquakes.  Okay?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:39:30 PM
No blood was found at Eddie's first alert in 5A. Keela didn't go in to the other apartment to check for traces of blood that the human eye can't see. Keela only looks for microscopic blood traces if Eddie alerts. Eddie didn't alert in the other apartments. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent not sniffing every inch of the floor for blood traces humans can't even see.

Eddie did alert to blood in 5A which was confirmed by Keela, IIRC. However the samples taken from the floor tiles was too minute or was inconclusive in forensic results.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 09:50:22 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

You seem to be saying that if Eddie detected the odour of blood - he would not alert.   That's simply not true PF.

Eddie searched for the odours he was trained to alert to.     If he detected any of those odours he alerted.       He had no ability to understand the difference between blood, bone tissue, teeth -  or even whether any dried blood he alerted to was from a dead or living person.    He was a clever dog - but he wasn't THAT clever.   All he knew is that he had detected an odour which he had been trained to alert to and so he barked,

From Grimes' Rogatory Statement

Quote
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver' ?

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants.    The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver.     He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
Eddie did alert to blood in 5A which was confirmed by Keela, IIRC. However the samples taken from the floor tiles was too minute or was inconclusive in forensic results.

This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

In my experience there are quite often large puddles of blood even if someone is dead.  Rarely are there microscopic particles unseen by the human eye.  Although every little helps, I suppose.

And when Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog they hoped he would find live people as well as dead ones.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

Why would someone assume that a death had occurred, because of Microscopic traces of blood?

Yep they worked as a team to find evidence of a death and not to look for evidence of blood in every apartment.
 So Eddie was pre-warned then, not to look for blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:02:08 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.
I find hard to believe after all this time and millions of words of discussion there are still people who don't understand how the dogs worked.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

So you think that when Grime sent Eddie in he said to him ''Ignore any blood odour and just alert to cadaverscent.?

You cannot be serious.

Why do you think Grime didn't send Keela into a place if Eddie had made no alerts there?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:14:31 PM
In my experience there are quite often large puddles of blood even if someone is dead.  Rarely are there microscopic particles unseen by the human eye.  Although every little helps, I suppose.

And when Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog they hoped he would find live people as well as dead ones.

If you were covering it up you would wash away any blood but some slipped in between the tiles where Keela alerted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2015, 10:20:24 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Lichen on widow-sills is a myth debunked in the myths debunked section.

Algae in the water, seemingly hitting Luz but not nearby, that is very interesting but not on topic, so I shall say no more.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:20:39 PM
I find hard to believe after all this time and millions of words of discussion there are still people who don't understand how the dogs worked.

You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 10:24:37 PM
You don't understand how they work as a TEAM.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

That's right suggestive...not confirmed...he goes on to say there are several reasons for the alert...that's the expert...

amaral says the alerts confrm Maddie died in the apartment..he's telling lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:26:26 PM
There was a sample of blood around the tile area that came from a Portuguese named person.  Probably shed when lifting the tiles.  Sorry, can't remember his name.
I cut myself on a chipped piece of tile last year and bled like a stuck pig for over half an hour.

The blood under the tiles almost certainly came from the original Tile Layer., which is what both Keela and Eddie alerted to.
It didn't have to have come from a dead person.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:29:55 PM
You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The dogs did not work as a Team.  They wouldn't have known the meaning of the word.

Eddie was simply flawed as a Cadaver Dog because he had been trained to detect blood long before he was introduced to dead piglets.
Martin Grime knew this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:30:40 PM
You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
I understand perfectly thanks, however you seem to be of the opinion that Grime can tell his dog when to alert to blood and when not to.  Did Grime ask Eddie to alert to blood in Jersey?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:39:35 PM
That's right suggestive...not confirmed...he goes on to say there are several reasons for the alert...that's the expert...

amaral says the alerts confrm Maddie died in the apartment..he's telling lies

The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 10:49:33 PM
The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.

have you ever heard of cross contamination as described by Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
Lichen on widow-sills is a myth debunked in the myths debunked section.

Algae in the water, seemingly hitting Luz but not nearby, that is very interesting but not on topic, so I shall say no more.


Thank you Shining. You are absolutely correct....We do appear to be slipping Off Topic here.

However it is essential to drag up all the previous dog alert issues to re-established the importance of the dog alert indications, compared to the case as made by Mr Amaral regarding the reliability of the dog's alerts.

Once done(if ever) we can all get back to.......................The Topic.

 
"Amaral and the dogs"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:56:25 PM

Thank you Shining. You are absolutely correct....We do appear to be slipping Off Topic here.

However it is essential to drag up all the previous dog alert issues to re-established the importance of the dog alert indications, compared to the case as made by Mr Amaral regarding the reliability of the dog's alerts.

Once done(if ever) we can all get back to.......................The Topic.

 
"Amaral and the dogs"
Amaral's understanding of the dogs' alerts is about as comprehensive as Pathfinder's, unfortunately,
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 10:57:09 PM
The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.

As the police have told us Maddie may still be alive they have told us the source is not Maddie
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:00:18 PM
I understand perfectly thanks, however you seem to be of the opinion that Grime can tell his dog when to alert to blood and when not to.  Did Grime ask Eddie to alert to blood in Jersey?

Eddie will alert to blood if he's doing a close inspection search of a vehicle for example. Keela did that inside the hire car. Eddie was put inside the burned out car in the Harron case and found the DNA match that put her killer away. He also found the body.

The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
Eddie will alert to blood if he's doing a close inspection search of a vehicle for example. Keela did that inside the hire car. Eddie was put inside the burned out car in the Harron case and found the DNA match that put her killer away. He also found the body.

The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA.
Thanks for not answering my question directly.  Here's another question for you to avoid answering: when will Eddie NOT alert to traces of blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:05:20 PM
As the police have told us Maddie may still be alive they have told us the source is not Maddie

Yes that's because she hasn't been found but they were searching for her body last year.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:08:52 PM
Thanks for not answering my question directly.  Here's another question for you to avoid answering: when will Eddie NOT alert to traces of blood?

Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 11:12:37 PM
Yes that's because she hasn't been found but they were searching for her body last year.

it means that they don't accept the alerts prove she died in the apartment
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:15:16 PM
Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.
And round in circles we go. 
Eddie will alert to blood - check. 
Eddie alerted to minute traces of blood on tissue - check. 
Eddie did not alert to blood in any place or to any property not McCann related - check. 
So, if Eddie alerts to minute traces of blood (as confimed by Keela) but did not alert to any place or any property not McCann related it is safe to assume that no blood was ever spilt in any other location apart from that pertaining to the McCanns, right?
Question - is that a realistic assumption?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:15:24 PM
it means that they don't accept the alerts prove she died in the apartment

How do you figure that one when the prime suspect was carrying her away in a deep sleep. If she woke and wandered she wouldn't be in a deep sleep. The Smiths believe it was Madeleine and the police were searching close to that sighting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 11:17:55 PM
Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.

Eddie alerted to other body fluids apart from blood.  Otherwise how and why did he alert to a semen soaked tissue?
And if that's not a bodily fluid from a live body then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:19:34 PM
Eddie alerted to other body fluids apart from blood.  Otherwise how and why did he alert to a semen soaked tissue?
And if that's not a bodily fluid from a live body then I don't know what is.

Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 13, 2015, 11:24:53 PM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.

you are a classic example of how people have been duped by amaral...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 11:40:10 PM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.

Well that's a new one I must say.  But at least you are admitting that Eddie alerted to blood.

PS.  Where was Keela, by the way?

Not that any of this explains why Amaral made such a mess of it all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 01:08:20 AM
you are a classic example of how people have been duped by amaral...

My own thoughts have nothing to do with Amaral. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent in the Prout case when there was no proof. Grime knows Eddie and has given his own professional opinion. Prout was convicted on circumstantial evidence. He later confessed but denied it for years and many believed him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2015, 02:20:42 AM
In an experiment, a scent pad was contacted with a subject at post mortem interval (PMI) 1hr 10mins, and later when the pad was sniffed by 5 EVRD dogs, NONE of the 5 dogs alerted.

When a pad was sampled at PMI = 1hr 25mins and later sniffed by the 5 dogs, one of the dogs alerted, so that is the minimum according to that experiment.

Of all of Eddie's many successful cases, can anyone post a case where a PMI proven to be as short as only 45mins (like proposed in the book) produced an alert?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 14, 2015, 07:35:07 AM
My own thoughts have nothing to do with Amaral. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent in the Prout case when there was no proof. Grime knows Eddie and has given his own professional opinion. Prout was convicted on circumstantial evidence. He later confessed but denied it for years and many believed him.


the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 07:57:21 AM

the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist

No dave it remains a possibility.

As to abduction. no evidence at all, unless you are a complete fantasist yourself.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 08:00:48 AM

the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist

And yet he believes he can win the libel trial ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 08:02:11 AM
And yet he believes he can win the libel trial ...

Wait for round two.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 08:06:02 AM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 14, 2015, 08:14:08 AM
Wait for round two.
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 08:30:55 AM
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first

That will not be a problem.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 08:54:15 AM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 08:55:36 AM
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first

Don't worry, the appeal will take place, it is an automatic right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 08:59:56 AM
Don't worry, the appeal will take place, it is an automatic right.

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:06:28 AM

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.
#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2015, 09:09:16 AM
#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/

as they  say  it aint over until the fat lady sings *&*%£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 09:16:33 AM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.

So - when all else fails - claim it was a conspiracy.  That is what you are claiming above isn't it Montclair?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 09:18:03 AM
So - when all else fails - claim it was a conspiracy.  That is what you are claiming above isn't it Montclair?

I'm not claiming anything, I'm just telling you what happened.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 09:21:34 AM

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.

Sorry, the appellants in Portugal do not have to ask for the right to appeal, it is automatic. Especially, in Gonçalo Amaral's case, you don't really think that he wouldn't have the right to appeal a decision which rules that he has to pay over € 500.000,00!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:23:06 AM


#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/

Montclaire, your apology is accepted:

I hope Jean-Pierre will forgive me for citing one of his earlier posts:

The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant. 
 

(Jean-Pierre)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:25:27 AM

Montclaire, your apology is accepted:

I hope Jean-Pierre will forgive me for citing one of his earlier posts:

The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant. 
 

(Jean-Pierre)

Read Montclair.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
To clear up a semantic quibble, Amaral has a right to cite grounds of an appeal.

He does not have an automatic right to expect that the grounds will be accepted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:32:41 AM
To clear up a semantic quibble, Amaral has a right to cite grounds of an appeal.

He does not have an automatic right to expect that the grounds will be accepted.

Are you an expert on Portuguese Law ?

and/or just worried that Amaral will win.

The case is unprecedented in Portuguese legal history.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:34:40 AM
Are you an expert on Portuguese Law ?

and/or just worried that Amaral will win.

The case is unprecedented in Portuguese legal history.

I readily concede that Jean-Pierre knows far more about Portuguese law than me.

I have merely repeated what he said.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:37:36 AM
I readily concede that Jean-Pierre knows far more about Portuguese law than me.

I have merely repeated what he said.

How do you know jp is an expert in Portuguese Law ?

and Montclair ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

There is a perfectly good Thread on Amaral and The Law.  Please take these comments there.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 09:51:14 AM
I'm not claiming anything, I'm just telling you what happened.

Quote
 John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
End quote

So can you explain the above please.   It's sounds to me as if you are inferring a conspiracy took place.  For what other reason would you describe John Lowe's actions as ...'very strange - or not so strange at all' ?

IMO Amaral in his haste -  jumped the gun and came to a premature conclusion which turned out to be wrong.     John Lowe's report simply gave the reasons why he was mistaken.

Would you agree with that?     





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:56:44 AM
Quote
 John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
End quote

So can you explain the above please.   It's sounds to me as if you are inferring a conspiracy took place.  For what other reason would you describe John Lowe's actions as ...'very strange - or not so strange at all' ?

IMO Amaral in his haste -  jumped the gun and came to a premature conclusion which turned out to be wrong.     John Lowe's report simply gave the reasons why he was mistaken.

Would you agree with that?   

One thing that incensed Amaral was that John Lowe made no more than a fleeting mention of the result from the boot of the Renault Scenic in his report.

He interpreted that as evidence that the FSS had changed their mind.

The FSS had done no such thing.

John Lowe simply considered that, having expained in detail all there was to say about that result in his email to Stuart Prior, there was nothing more to say about it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 01:00:20 PM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.


I understand that you support Amaral... but I simply don't see how you have come to this conclusion.

Perhaps you could provide clear cites as to how you have done so?

Have you actually read and understood the files regarding Lowe's email and subsequent report?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 14, 2015, 01:09:19 PM
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

A very important question indeed. Nobody wants to answer, though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 01:20:25 PM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.



Let's examine your assertion.

... The dog alerts were confirmed (by whom?)

...Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. (Ok, let's read further)

...The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine (cite from the forensic files, please?)

...then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 (cite from the forensic files, please?)



...and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! (could you indicate where - in the forensic reports - that it was ever established that there were any fluids? Once you've provided a cite for that, perhaps we could examine where there was a "sudden doubt" as to whom those "fluids" might have belonged.)







Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
That will not be a problem.

You make me laugh Stephen with your comments   'that will not be a problem'   it's as if you can see into the future,  you can't though can you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:23:43 PM
Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.
What was he searching for in Jersey, when he alerted to the tissue?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 06:26:07 PM
Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.

Eddie was searching for a scent he was trained to react to, which includes the scent of blood.

And then there are the well-documented studies that establish that excessive direction (of a dog) and sub-concious bias can influence dog reactions.

Grime himself says as much in his profile.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:31:41 PM
Eddie was searching for a scent he was trained to react to, which includes the scent of blood.

And then there are the well-documented studies that establish that excessive direction (of a dog) and sub-concious bias can influence dog reactions.

Grime himself says as much in his profile.

As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 14, 2015, 06:36:37 PM
As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!

typical sceptic poor level of understanding re the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!
Why did Grime bother with Keela at all then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:48:03 PM
Why did Grime bother with Keela at all then?

Keela finds blood that has been cleaned to try and detect that vital missing evidence. Keela has to get in real close and sniff hard while Eddie can roam around to detect the source.

Watch the video and see how they work:

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:53:15 PM
Keela finds blood that has been cleaned to try and detect that vital missing evidence. Keela has to get in real close and sniff hard while Eddie can roam around to detect the source.

Watch the video and see how they work:

Why bother with Keela when Eddie can also find blood - eg: on a tissue?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 06:56:24 PM
God, I am getting so bored with this.  Did Eddie think he was on a Jolly?  Or did he think he was going to play the game, as it were?

He was a Spaniel and basically a Working Dog.  It's what they do.  He didn't understand the sense of it, but he knew that the game was on.

And quite frankly, I am appalled by the fact that Martin Grime had so little control of the dog that he couldn't even get it to walk to heal.
But then I don't believe that.  Martin Grime knew exactly what he was doing.  So don't tell me that Eddie could smell anything from the walkway outside the appartment.  Especially when it took him some time to smell anything inside the appartment.

That was the best bit of grandstanding that I have ever seen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Eddie was different from the day he was born. A dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.” The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out.

The dogs have spoken and it's no game because if they get it wrong they are out of a job. They weren't the best paid  dogs in Britain for getting it wrong  @)(++(* Successful cases and top marks put them into that position. Crime scenes that are cleaned and covered up won't fool these dogs. They only alert when 100% certain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 09:03:49 PM
Eddie was different from the day he was born. A dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.” The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out.

The dogs have spoken and it's no game because if they get it wrong they are out of a job. They weren't the best paid  dogs in Britain for getting it wrong  @)(++(* Successful cases and top marks put them into that position. Crime scenes that are cleaned and covered up won't fool these dogs. They only alert when 100% certain.
What a peculiar post.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 09:19:51 PM
What a peculiar post.

It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 09:30:35 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.
I don't know where to begin with that one tbh, quite extraordinary...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.

I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 14, 2015, 09:43:15 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.

The truth is...and we should all be very interested in the truth...we don't know how good eddie was at his job since the overwhelming vast majority of his alerts that I have seen are unconfirmed...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 14, 2015, 09:46:00 PM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

to his credit...path is usually very pleasant and not vindinctive
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 10:00:21 PM
to his credit...path is usually very pleasant and not vindinctive

Absolutely.  We might all take a lesson.  Perhaps we can all try a bit harder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 14, 2015, 10:52:28 PM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

Scary.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 11:36:28 PM
Scary.

Yes.  Really scary when people have no real knowledge of what they are talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 11:43:42 PM
Just shows how bleedin' dangerous Googling can be  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:22:46 AM
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?

You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:25:07 AM
Should equal blood but no cadaver scent.

Err no, a cadaver dog can scent the remnant scent of a dead body and a blood dog can find blood in the same place. Both alerts do not have to mean alerting to the same thing.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2015, 12:26:43 AM
Do we really have to do this again?  I don't think I can take it for much longer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:30:03 AM
"The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes"
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
So the hypothesis in the VeM book which has PMI of only 45 mins must be incorrect IMO

What is the  VeM book?

Why do you assume 45 minutes?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:32:02 AM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VRD.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.

So what? Keela didnt, when sent in after Eddie, ergo wasnt blood from a live person
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2015, 12:35:13 AM
So what? Keela didnt, when sent in after Eddie, ergo wasnt blood from a live person

Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:45:21 AM
Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.

Keela scents all blood, perhaps you didnt know that? My point was Eddies alerts in 5a which Keela did  not confirm could NOT have been blood

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 12:48:18 AM
Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.

The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:50:50 AM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

What a silly post.....eddie was trained on finding REMNANT CADAVER SCENT.....if youre  pug can do that get him signed up...might save the police some money
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 12:58:02 AM
Eddie could have been alerting to any body fluid, or it could have just been a false alert.
 Either way there was no body................So if anyone believes there was a body, Where is it?
The McCanns were not familiar with the area.
No evidence of anything really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body…He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of ‘cadaver scent’ odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.”
http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/

‘Eddie’ The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.



We know that Eddie has been trained using blood, bone tissue, teeth and decomposed cross-contaminants… so it is feasible to say that he could alert to skin tissue or other decomposing bodily fluids from a dead or living human being. We also know from the Haut de la Garenne case that Eddie did alert to tissues used to clean up after sex..


https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-dogs-their-findings-and-facts/

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:58:46 AM
The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.

Exactly, thats the only reason they were sent in
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 01:05:19 AM
Eddie could have been alerting to any body fluid, or it could have just been a false alert.
 Either way there was no body................So if anyone believes there was a body, Where is it?
The McCanns were not familiar with the area.
No evidence of anything really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body…He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of ‘cadaver scent’ odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.”
http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/

‘Eddie’ The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.



We know that Eddie has been trained using blood, bone tissue, teeth and decomposed cross-contaminants… so it is feasible to say that he could alert to skin tissue or other decomposing bodily fluids from a dead or living human being. We also know from the Haut de la Garenne case that Eddie did alert to tissues used to clean up after sex..


https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-dogs-their-findings-and-facts/

No use quoting a biased uninformed blog anna is it? Or is it? Oh well, carry on supporting the agenda that Eddie was alerting anything from a corpose, blood, a dead pig, a nappy, broken toenails, infected brietta algae sandals, an abortion, a miscarriage, a missed by police bloody murder, or suicide, people leaving their used condoms around., their dirty nappies, rotting teeth,, leaving pee and poo all over the bathroom.....gosh the list is endless and it all happend in 5 a potentially but we KNOW nowhere else, hahaha!! You have got to be bloody joking at best, laters, long shift, will check timorrow!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 01:10:38 AM
Exactly, thats the only reason they were sent in

They miss the whole point. The dogs are investigating death. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. Eddie detects the source of scent and Keela is brought in to find the proof of the missing person. If that DNA matched Madeleine then the police would think she died inside the apartment. Eddie has given his cadaver alert at the crime scene and Keela has found a blood match. Now you need to find the body. SY have begun searches for that stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 15, 2015, 01:33:35 AM
What is the  VeM book?

Why do you assume 45 minutes?
Sorry VdM, "Verdade Da Mentira".
The sofa theory is in the files. From chat to alarm is about 45 mins.
But the CSST experiment found the minimum PMI required is 85 mins.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 01:34:23 AM
MARTIN GRIME PERSONAL PROFILE
09-Processo 9..Pages 2262 to 2268 
11 also Processo XI 2813 to 2835

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:12:33 AM
You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Do you have an objective, unbiased cite based on scientific evidence that your statement in bold is true?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 09:04:26 AM
No use quoting a biased uninformed blog anna is it? Or is it? Oh well, carry on supporting the agenda that Eddie was alerting anything from a corpose, blood, a dead pig, a nappy, broken toenails, infected brietta algae sandals, an abortion, a miscarriage, a missed by police bloody murder, or suicide, people leaving their used condoms around., their dirty nappies, rotting teeth,, leaving pee and poo all over the bathroom.....gosh the list is endless and it all happend in 5 a potentially but we KNOW nowhere else, hahaha!! You have got to be bloody joking at best, laters, long shift, will check timorrow!

Since you do not appear to understand(or want to) the words of an expert or Mr Grimes' report in the McCann files, I thought these simple links might help................but alas you are convinced, so I will leave you to it.
Nobody knows what happened and it is all guesswork. If, however you have proof that madeleine died in 5A, Please share.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 09:19:05 AM
The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.
They're not trained to find evidence of sexual intercourse but that is what Eddie alerted to in Jersey - it's an inconvenient truth which you simply cannot ignore (though you do a good job of it on here, granted!)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 15, 2015, 09:26:22 AM
They're not trained to find evidence of sexual intercourse but that is what Eddie alerted to in Jersey - it's an inconvenient truth which you simply cannot ignore (though you do a good job of it on here, granted!)

That makes one wonder about the quality of handler cuing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 09:54:04 AM
That makes one wonder about the quality of handler cuing.

The dog alerts as per its training.  VRD alert to semen.

The dog and its handler worked appropriately and found what was there to be found.  That it was not what was expected is no reflection on the dog or its handler.

Even the best dog in the world cannot find what isn't there to be found in the first place.

As Martin Grime has attested ... forensic examination and evidence determines what the dog has alerted to ... nothing else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:02:27 AM
Martin Grime also said of the sex tissue alert words to the effect that the alert was within the parameters of what you'd expect the dog to alert to - I'm sure someone will be able to dig out the exact quote if they're bothered.  So if the expectation is that Eddie will alert to a sex tissue then surely it would be unexpected that he did not alert anywhere at all apart from to McCann property, unless there was an unusually high level of expectation that all other apartments and Murat's house had been kept completely spotless for their entire existence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 10:15:33 AM
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html
ETA
http://www.gov.je/Government/Pages/StatesReports.aspx?ReportID=561
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:23:27 AM
Thank you Anna 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 05:55:12 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 06:02:14 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
so, the tissue in Jersey contained decomposed human tissue.  Well that's one way of putting it!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 06:19:11 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

If putrescine and cadaverine are present ... an animal trained to search for human remains will alert. 

Semen contains cadaverine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 15, 2015, 06:39:10 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

IIRC - Eddie also alerted to a large number of milk teeth in Jersey.  Another example of alerting to 'body bits' which have become detached from living people - or in this case - from living children.

An alert from Eddie did not necessarily signify a death had occurred at the place where the alert was made - or even that a death had occurred at all.

Amaral claimed that it did. 




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 06:58:15 PM
If putrescine and cadaverine are present ... an animal trained to search for human remains will alert. 

Semen contains cadaverine.

Eddie doesn't alert to semen unless it's mixed with blood.  Eddie was specially trained and deconditioned to alert to semen. Eddie's job was to find the body. He was trained on human cadavers. The dogs are a murder squad like Operation Grange.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its  manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 06:59:47 PM
so, the tissue in Jersey contained decomposed human tissue.  Well that's one way of putting it!

The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 07:09:44 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

Errr....so Martin Grime was lying in his report when he wrote:

Quote
The EVRD was deployed in a wide area screening sweep of the site. The following alert indications were forthcoming:




VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:19:05 PM
Errr....so Martin Grime was lying in his report when he wrote:

Blood was alerted to on the tissue and both dogs alert to blood.  So either dog would be correct in their blood alert.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 07:22:27 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

What do you mean by cases, and when you say that he never gave a false positive, what exactly are you referring to?

Keela also apparently reacted to the sex tissues. But when did Grime write the notes stating that Eddie's reaction was within his training parameters? As and when Eddie reacted... or only after he'd seen what it was and Keela had also reacted?

There is no way of knowing from that report.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 15, 2015, 07:23:50 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 07:27:15 PM
that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases

In PdL Eddie alerted to cuddle-cat only after it had been hidden in a cupboard, but could, apparently, detect no scent on the toy when it was in front of his nose and he could play with it.

And he detected a scent on clothing in the gym, he was unable to detect a scent on when the same clothing was in the villa.

Most strange ...

And yes, Eddie had been involved in 37 cases up to 2006 ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:29:06 PM
that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases

Eddie's first murder case search was in 2002.

Wuff justice – Doggy sleuths on the trail of murder victims

They have become national heroes, called upon to take part in many of the country's most high-profile murder investigations

The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216

A man convicted of dumping dismembered human remains on Cumbrian moorland, has been jailed for life.
Daniel Thompson, 28, drove to a remote area near Dent and buried the body of Shane Collier, after cutting him into eight pieces.

Thompson was found guilty of murdering 21-year-old Mr Collier at a house in Yews Lane, Kendray, Barnsley, South Yorkshire.

His remains were discovered in two shallow graves bordering the Yorkshire Dales in March 2002, after an extensive search.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2085490.stm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 07:35:37 PM
Eddie's first murder case search was in 2002. The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.

A man convicted of dumping dismembered human remains on Cumbrian moorland, has been jailed for life.
Daniel Thompson, 28, drove to a remote area near Dent and buried the body of Shane Collier, after cutting him into eight pieces.

Thompson was found guilty of murdering 21-year-old Mr Collier at a house in Yews Lane, Kendray, Barnsley, South Yorkshire.

His remains were discovered in two shallow graves bordering the Yorkshire Dales in March 2002, after an extensive search.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2085490.stm

And the other 199 cases were...?

The FOI response as to how many cases Eddie had been deployed on between 2003 and 2007 has been posted here numerous times.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 15, 2015, 07:38:18 PM
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
 operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
 specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
 dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.




in 200 case searches...there are multiple searches in each case


in these 200 case searches eddie has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs...not he has never had a false alert in 200 cases
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:38:52 PM
And the other 199 cases were...?

The FOI response as to how many cases Eddie had been deployed on between 2003 and 2007 has been posted here numerous times.

I don't know the figures but they were in very high demand.

SNIFFING out tiny traces of blood in murder cases and tracking down buried human remains is a job only two specialists in Britain are qualified to do.

Two-and-a-half-year-old springer spaniel Eddie and partner Frankie – a four-year-old border collie – are experts who come second to none in their line of work.

"We put together a business plan for our bosses, with the idea that we would be called out on perhaps two jobs a year – but it's taken off beyond belief. We're currently getting about two requests every week."

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
Eddie doesn't alert to semen unless it's mixed with blood.  Eddie was specially trained and deconditioned to alert to semen. Eddie's job was to find the body. He was trained on human cadavers. The dogs are a murder squad like Operation Grange.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its  manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.


Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:48:56 PM
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
 operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
 specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
 dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.




in 200 case searches...there are multiple searches in each case


in these 200 case searches eddie has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs...not he has never had a false alert in 200 cases

And their professionalism and success rate are such that when the FBI called on their services recently, they were simply too busy to help.

The South Yorkshire "body dogs" and their handlers, PC Martin Grime and PC John Ellis, are quickly becoming one of the biggest success stories of the police force and have been involved in some of the most high-profile murder investigations of the last three years.

SY haven't ignored the alerts. They are searching for a body. Time for a reality check about these dogs. They are casen proved and get things right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 07:53:51 PM
Blood was alerted to on the tissue and both dogs alert to blood.  So either dog would be correct in their blood alert.
You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:58:40 PM
You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence?

That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were  ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:24:04 PM
That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were  ?>)()<
All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
Sorry VdM, "Verdade Da Mentira".
The sofa theory is in the files. From chat to alarm is about 45 mins.
But the CSST experiment found the minimum PMI required is 85 mins.

That is presuming Gerald Mccann told the truth when he said he looked in on his child at around 9.15pm that night. There is no evidence that he did or didn't.

As regards the time interval between death and a cadaver dog picking up on this, there is a plethora of information, some anecdotal, some scientific, some confirmed via police work, some in Mr Grime's own CV, and this ranges from "immediately  to 3 hours".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:32:32 PM
They miss the whole point. The dogs are investigating death. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. Eddie detects the source of scent and Keela is brought in to find the proof of the missing person. If that DNA matched Madeleine then the police would think she died inside the apartment. Eddie has given his cadaver alert at the crime scene and Keela has found a blood match. Now you need to find the body. SY have begun searches for that stage.

Correct.

But the FSS did not find a clear blood match to Madeleine Mccann, just a possible one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:33:00 PM
MARTIN GRIME PERSONAL PROFILE
09-Processo 9..Pages 2262 to 2268 
11 also Processo XI 2813 to 2835

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

And?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:34:26 PM
Do you have an objective, unbiased cite based on scientific evidence that your statement in bold is true?

It's common sense and logic in the main.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?

Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case. If Eddie doesn't alert to a body then Keela is not used.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:37:57 PM
It's common sense and logic in the main.
That's simply not good enough I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. It is too simple for you to understand. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case.
Another non-answer. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 08:39:32 PM

Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp

Are you trying for a lesson in Chemistry, or just trying to extract a straw coloured fluid ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:39:53 PM
Since you do not appear to understand(or want to) the words of an expert or Mr Grimes' report in the McCann files, I thought these simple links might help................but alas you are convinced, so I will leave you to it.
Nobody knows what happened and it is all guesswork. If, however you have proof that madeleine died in 5A, Please share.

I never asserted any such thing Anna. But trust me, I understand the totality of the dog alerts and what they do, do not and could or could not mean. The main thrust of my argument has been about the sheer odds against the given possibilities of the dog alerts and those possibilities existing only in one place, ie the place a child went missing from. Most arguments fall around this but fail every time.

My apologies regarding your link. I mistakenly read it's title and thought it was a "certain known biased" one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:43:09 PM
Another non-answer.

You won't find one example when the missing person has turned up alive after Eddie has alerted to a body. Madeleine is still missing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:47:39 PM
That's simply not good enough I'm afraid.

It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?

And I showed him the video of the dogs training in Jersey. Eddie detected the corpse scent on the beach (his job is to find a body) and Keela detects blood. That's their specialised training to work as a team in a suspected murder case. Eddie finds corpse scent and Keela blood. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. They are not used as a team to find blood. They are used to find evidence of the missing person. Who would've thought it could be that simple and that's their job which they were successful at doing  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:56:32 PM
It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:59:06 PM
And I showed him the video of the dogs training in Jersey. Eddie detected the corpse scent on the beach (his job is to find a body) and Keela detects blood. That's their specialised training to work as a team in a suspected murder case. Eddie finds corpse scent and Keela blood. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. They are not used as a team to find blood. They are used to find evidence of the missing person. Who would've thought it could be that simple and that's their job which they were successful at doing  @)(++(*

"They are not used as a team to find blood"

Exactly, but some people here want to promote this silly idea.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:59:35 PM
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?

SY are looking for the proof. The dog alerts are evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 09:01:41 PM
SY are looking for the proof. The dog alerts are evidence.

Both Grime and Harrison state that dog alerts are not evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 09:19:31 PM
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?

You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard
The reason I asked you for science based evidence in the first place is because you did use the word "prove". 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 09:35:11 PM
The reason I asked you for science based evidence in the first place is because you did use the word "prove".

I didn't think I did say anything proves anything, can you quote me? bet you can't. meanwhile, try and keep up with the facts and the arguments.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 09:44:27 PM
You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard


Nope it sure ain't ... a little bit too much for Mr Amaral to get his head round ... but takes all sorts

Thing to bear in mind is that the components of the "scent of death" number cadaverine and putricine, the names of which are self explanatory.

Makes it rather important for forensic scientists to find out what is actually causing the stink.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 09:57:18 PM

Nope it sure ain't ... a little bit too much for Mr Amaral to get his head round ... but takes all sorts

Thing to bear in mind is that the components of the "scent of death" number cadaverine and putricine, the names of which are self explanatory.

Makes it rather important for forensic scientists to find out what is actually causing the stink.

You are ignorant because you don't know the dogs training. Martin Grime knows and he said Eddie alerted to cadaver and has proven it in many missing person cases. When Maddy turns up alive you can diss the dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
I didn't think I did say anything proves anything, can you quote me? bet you can't. meanwhile, try and keep up with the facts and the arguments.

You wrote the following, did you not?


You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
You are ignorant because you don't know the dogs training. Martin Grime knows and he said Eddie alerted to cadaver as he has proven it in many missing person cases. When Maddy turns up alive you can diss the dogs.

I sincerely hope Madeleine does turn up alive and well ... but I will not be dissing the dogs when she does.

Of course Eddie alerts to cadaver scent.  Which is a mix max of various organs breaking down at different rates and producing the horrible smell you don't need a dog to locate.
He also alerts to the components of cadaver scent which include cadaverine and putricine ...

It is probable that Eddie KNEW what and maybe even WHO he was smelling ... but he couldn't tell us that ... whatever he was smelling had to be checked out forensically ... and Martin Grime told us that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 10:40:32 PM
I sincerely hope Madeleine does turn up alive and well ... but I will not be dissing the dogs when she does.

Of course Eddie alerts to cadaver scent.  Which is a mix max of various organs breaking down at different rates and producing the horrible smell you don't need a dog to locate.
He also alerts to the components of cadaver scent which include cadaverine and putricine ...

It is probable that Eddie KNEW what and maybe even WHO he was smelling ... but he couldn't tell us that ... whatever he was smelling had to be checked out forensically ... and Martin Grime told us that.

Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:43:07 PM
Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.
Why didn't Eddie alert to the boot of the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 10:49:20 PM
Why didn't Eddie alert to the boot of the car?

The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 11:25:39 PM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)
So it wasn't blood on the key fob then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 11:40:39 PM
"A diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by Eddie. The diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body."

Diary contaminated after handling body. Straight transfer of cadaver contaminated hands to his diary after death which Eddie alerted to. The same process could explain CC alert.

"Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces."
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 11:47:25 PM
So it wasn't blood on the key fob then?

It could be but not in my opinion.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 12:54:54 AM
Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.

Who said the boot had been left open? ~ a woman driving past

Is there a witness statement from this woman? ~ no there isn't

Who said there was a woman? ~ Mr Amaral

When did he say that? ~ in his book

I think we can rest easy that there is absolutely no veracity in either the existence of this woman or of the claim she was alleged to have made.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:00:14 AM
Who said the boot had been left open? ~ a woman driving past

Is there a witness statement from this woman? ~ no there isn't

Who said there was a woman? ~ Mr Amaral

When did he say that? ~ in his book

I think we can rest easy that there is absolutely no veracity in either the existence of this woman or of the claim she was alleged to have made.
There is a video of this woman, describing what she saw. Have you seen the video?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 02:12:34 AM
There is a video of this woman, describing what she saw. Have you seen the video?

Is that an official video, recorded in the PJ files?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:28:33 AM
Is that an official video, recorded in the PJ files?
No. But it is a genuine video. She is a real person. IMO she did report it to the PJ, after Mr Amaral was forced out. The released files include almost nothing of the post-Amaral PJ investigations on the ground in PDL.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 02:34:11 AM
No. But it is a genuine video. She is a real person. IMO she did report it to the PJ, after Mr Amaral was forced out. The released files include almost nothing of the post-Amaral PJ investigations on the ground in PDL.

How do you know the video is genuine?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:52:13 AM
How do you know the video is genuine?
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 03:09:31 AM
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.

I saw the video, although I can't find it atm. There was no reason for the neighbour to hide her identity - the McCanns had already left Portugal, so there was no threat to her safety.
I also recall the video of "Luisa Monteiro" giving her interview on Euclides & his poetry, but refusing to show her face. Curiously, her blonde wavy hair had morphed into dark curls for the TV - but there we are.
Then there was Martin Grime in the Levy DVD  saying "same as before" when Keela indicated in the wheel well. A 2nd DVD?
Who knows what is genuine & what isn't?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 11:31:01 AM
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.

For someone who is such a stickler for procedure, process and the need for verification, I am amazed that you accept and defend the validity of such material.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:02:35 AM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for being.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:04:08 AM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for their being.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:25:07 AM
Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for their being.

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie was correct in his alert at the source of the scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 01:28:31 AM
"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie is correct in his alert at the source of the scent.

Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:35:01 AM
Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.

He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars. And we know Keela got a match of 15 out of 19 then 37 or whatever they were trying to say. Can they prove it was 5 different people that made up that match that matched Madeleine? New boot tests me thinks.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:36:31 AM
"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie was correct in his alert at the source of the scent.
Pathfinder , what you quote above answers whether the door seals are airtight [scentproof] or not. 


The air that circulates in a car comes in via vents at the front and exits via exhausters at the rear.  Have you got it?

The door seals do not allow passage of air or water or scent.  They are impervious.



Do you understand this now?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:39:20 AM
Pathfinder , what you quote above answers whether the door seals are airtight [scentproof] or not. 


The air that circulates in a car comes in via vents at the front and exits via exhausters at the rear.  Have you got it?

The door seals do not allow passage of air or water or scent.  They are impervious.



Do you understand this now?

You haven't got it at all. Watertight doesn't mean airtight. Scent was escaping through the passenger door - that's why Eddie alerted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:41:40 AM
He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars.

Just cos bodies can be moved in car boots and sometimes are, DOES NOT mean that this happened in this case.



Pathfinder, my dear, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you truly believe what you have written. 
May I remind you that there is NO forensic evidence to back your .. erm .. thoughts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:42:18 AM
Just cos bodies can be moved in car boots and sometimes are, DOES NOT mean that this happened in this case.



Pathfinder, my dear, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you truly believe what you have written. 
May I remind you that there is NO forensic evidence to back your .. erm .. thoughts.

It doesn't mean it didn't happen either with boots left open. Do you think it's impossible to hide someone?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:45:41 AM
You haven't got it at all. Watertight doesn't mean airtight. Scent was escaping through the passenger door - that's why Eddie alerted.
It is you that hasn't got it.  The air comes in via vents at the front and goes out via exhausters at the back.



If the seals were not airproof, every time there was a blast of wind in a gale, you would feel an awful draught.



It is YOU that hasn't got it.


And now, Pfinder.  Nigh Night.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:46:52 AM
It is you that hasn't got it.  The air comes in via vents at the front and goes out via exhausters at the back.



If the seals were not airproof, every time there was a blast of wind in a gale, you would feel an awful draught.



It is YOU that hasn't got it.


And now, Pfinder.  Nigh Night.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Read it. Night Sadie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 01:48:05 AM
He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars. And we know Keela got a match of 15 out of 19 then 37 or whatever they were trying to say. Can they prove it was 5 different people that made up that match that matched Madeleine. New boot tests me thinks.

I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 01:51:34 AM
Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.
A vehicle is not sealed. It has various ventilation holes. That's why a person can sleep in a car and never run out of oxygen. Depending on the environment where it is parked and the temperature differentials, air enters some ventilation holes and exits out of others. With all 5 doors closed, Eddie alerted at where air was exiting. The lower part of the driver side front door seal. This seal has ventilation holes in it IMO. In a different airflow environment he might have indicated at the rear hatch door seal. The result is the same, he was alerting to air coming from inside the vehicle.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:52:37 AM
I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?

Show me where Eddie sniffed the boot seal? He didn't. He was chasing scent all over the car park. Grime knew that when he passed that car his behaviour drastically changed because he had found a scent so he brought him back to the source i.e. car. Eddie then alerted to the passenger side where the scent was escaping. Scent escaping from there could be from the boot. The whole car would be full of that scent to be all over the car park.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:54:24 AM
I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?
Eddie should have scented any blood scents as well, but the boot seal prevented it.


No air passes thru seals of the type used on modern cars.


So, how come he scented a smell of Something, blood or cadervine, around the door seal?


Just how could that have happened? £5%4%
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:56:50 AM
Eddie should have scented any blood scents as well, but the boot seal prevented it.


No air passes thru seals of the type used on modern cars.


So, how come he scented a smell of Something, blood or cadervine, around the door seal?


Just how could that have happened? £5%4%

It did happen because Eddie alerted to the source of the scent i.e. the car. I have proven cars are not airtight on the passenger side where the dog alerted. Eddie was correct.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:57:00 AM
Show me where Eddie sniffed the boot seal? He didn't. He was chasing scent all over the car park. Grime knew that when he passed that car his behaviour drastically changed because he had found a scent so he brought him back to the source i.e. car. Eddie then alerted to the passenger side where the scent was escaping. Scent escaping from there could be from the boot. The whole car would be full of that scent to be all over the car park.

You are like Faith.  You have a vivid imagination ... but I like you.

Nigh night again

sadie x
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 02:04:26 AM
A vehicle is not sealed. It has various ventilation holes. That's why a person can sleep in a car and never run out of oxygen. Depending on the environment where it is parked and the temperature differentials, air enters some ventilation holes and exits out of others. With all 5 doors closed, Eddie alerted at where air was exiting. The lower part of the driver side front door seal. This seal has ventilation holes in it IMO. In a different airflow environment he might have indicated at the rear hatch door seal. The result is the same, he was alerting to air coming from inside the vehicle.

Would any airflow not have been from front to back, in light of the way the vehicle was parked?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 02:20:46 AM
Would any airflow not have been from front to back, in light of the way the vehicle was parked?
I don't know all the ventilation openings in a grand scenic. Logically, when parked, air would flow in lower openings, and out of higher openings. He had access to only the lower openings. This is a limitaion of EVRD dogs, they work at ground level. You can see this in the New Addington case, where the dog was working at 1st floor level and alerted on two seperate days to 2nd floor level (attic). Also you can see the same limitation in video of the south bedroom alert at 5A, where Eddie is searching for some time to locate the source of the scent, concentrating mainly on floor level, and accurately locates the source only when he finally sniffs above ground level, at the first shelf up above floor level in the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 02:54:36 AM
I don't know all the ventilation openings in a grand scenic. Logically, when parked, air would flow in lower openings, and out of higher openings. He had access to only the lower openings. This is a limitaion of EVRD dogs, they work at ground level. You can see this in the New Addington case, where the dog was working at 1st floor level and alerted on two seperate days to 2nd floor level (attic). Also you can see the same limitation in video of the south bedroom alert at 5A, where Eddie is searching for some time to locate the source of the scent, concentrating mainly on floor level, and accurately locates the source only when he finally sniffs above ground level, at the first shelf up above floor level in the wardrobe.

I am still having difficulty understanding how the airflow would have enabled odour from the r/o/s inside the boot to travel diagonally across the vehicle through 2 (or was it 3?) sets of seats and then downwards without some sort of airflow into the boot which would thus be the point at which Eddie should have been able to first detect odour.
P/F's argument that Eddie didn't sniff the boot seal applies to all the other vehicles in that car park so what else may Eddie have missed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 08:14:36 AM
I am still having difficulty understanding how the airflow would have enabled odour from the r/o/s inside the boot to travel diagonally across the vehicle through 2 (or was it 3?) sets of seats and then downwards without some sort of airflow into the boot which would thus be the point at which Eddie should have been able to first detect odour.
P/F's argument that Eddie didn't sniff the boot seal applies to all the other vehicles in that car park so what else may Eddie have missed?

If the odour was escaping from the car via air vents ... why didn't Eddie alert at the vents, which would have been the only source ... thinking of scent cones etc?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 09:25:52 AM
If the odour was escaping from the car via air vents ... why didn't Eddie alert at the vents, which would have been the only source ... thinking of scent cones etc?
Exactly


And how come his nose followed close to the line of the edge of the door seal ?


Gawd, I do have a suspicious mind..... but just how did it happen?


Please reassure me that my suspiciions are wrong by giving me a sensible scenario.





I will say now that I do not believe that a car would be designed with air vents low down and so close to the passengers.  Water would come in.  Additionally the passenger would feel draughts. 


My bet is that the incoming vents are placed in some part of the car which is inherantly dry
... such as under the bonnet


Sorry Pfinder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 17, 2015, 09:44:49 AM
Exactly


And how come his nose followed close to the line of the edge of the door seal ?


Gawd, I do have a suspicious mind..... but just how did it happen?


Please reassure me that my suspiciions are wrong by giving me a sensible scenario.





I will say now that I do not believe that a car would be designed with air vents low down and so close to the passengers.  Water would come in.  Additionally the passenger would feel draughts. 


My bet is that the incoming vents are placed in some part of the car which is inherantly dry
... such as under the bonnet


Sorry Pfinder.

You really do need to look up the relevant laws of physics and the application of Chemistry in regard to this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 10:20:03 AM
Also as mentioned last time we went round this loop, there is a significant part of the bodywork within the door frame and outside the seal that could act as repository for scents transferred from clothing when entering or leaving the car.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:24:12 AM
Also as mentioned last time we went round this loop, there is a significant part of the bodywork within the door frame and outside the seal that could act as repository for scents transferred from clothing when entering or leaving the car.
And yet how strange that there were no dog alerts to any of Gerry's clothing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 10:27:32 AM
And yet how strange that there were no dog alerts to any of Gerry's clothing.

I wasn't aware he was the only person to use the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:30:48 AM
Has there ever been a list of people drawn up of who was transported in that car in the month after it was first hired by the McCanns?  I know it was used to pick up family members from the airport and back but it would be interesting to know which of these people noticed the lingering stench of decaying corpse on their journey in the car...?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:31:31 AM
I wasn't aware he was the only person to use the car?
And your point is...?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 17, 2015, 11:26:42 AM
But that wouldn't explain why Eddie did not alert in the Paynes apartment where he spent hours in the same clothing he had worn that night -  and cross contamination would almost certainly have occurred -  as any residual odour would be at its strongest.

A very good point.

Jesus, you need a mind like a razor to keep up with this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 17, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Members are warned that speculating to the extent that a post could be considered defamatory is contrary to the forum rules and renders such post open to removal.

Admin
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 12:12:15 PM
You really do need to look up the relevant laws of physics and the application of Chemistry in regard to this.

Perhaps you would be helpful enough to explain it to us in layman's terms so we can all understand why the scent only permeated in the one place.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 12:14:52 PM
The only permissable, expressable opinion on the subject of the dogs and Amaral on this forum is that he misunderstood the dog alerts and that they were not alerting to cadaver scent - anything else by inference is defamatory,  just sayin'... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
You won't find one example when the missing person has turned up alive after Eddie has alerted to a body. Madeleine is still missing.
You don't need to find such a missing person.

Eddie alerted to the Scenic key in the sandbox test.  Keela alerted to the Scenic key, in the sandbox test.  The FSS identified the material on the Scenic key as belonging to Gerry.

Thus the dogs can alert to living people.  Whether such a person is missing or not is irrelevant, because the dogs don't distinguish missing people from non-missing people.  They just alert, and then it is over to forensics.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 04:03:54 PM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Eddie alerted at the driver door, not the passenger door.  He was directed to the passenger door and did not alert.  He did not alert at the boot door.

Martin Grime may or may not be right in saying this was due to the seal on the driver door. 

If the Scenic was deliberately fitted with non-porous seals, then Eddie should have alerted at the passenger door, and probably at the boot door.  Therefore, I conclude that it is not deliberately fitted with porous seals.

That leads me to conclude that IF Martin Grime is correct THEN the driver seal may have been faulty.

However, there is an alternative explanation.

Before Eddie alerted at the driver door, he ran back and forth between the Scenic and the garage ventilator, suggesting that there was a scent trail between the Scenic and the ventilator.

Now consider the set-up of the test.  Along with the other 9 vehicles, the Scenic was driven into the garage and parked in what was deemed to be an appropriate slot.  So we know for a fact that the driver door was opened once when the driver got in and once inside the garage when the driver got out.  It may have been more openings and closings but I neither know nor care.

The result fits the dog's pattern, of a scent stream form the Scenic to the ventilator, with the strongest point being around the door.

If the passenger door of the Scenic was not opened and the boot was not opened (and why would they be?), then there would be no scent around these parts, hence no alerts.

Try reversing this.  Assume my explanation above is incorrect.  Assume Martin Grime is correct.  Without that faulty seal, the test should have failed i.e. Eddie should not have alerted, just run round in a tizzy between the Scenic and the ventilator.  Then Keela would not have been deployed.

And endless years of argument over the dogs would have had much less fuel.

It wasn't the best-thought through experiment.  All of the vehicles should have had windows down or doors open to ensure interior smells were available at the exterior.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 05:04:41 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 05:20:55 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?

An explanation as to why Eddie never reacted to the boot might also be helpful...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
But seems that it is OK to say exactly what THEY want to say about The Mccanns
... including VERY defamatory things, such as continually suggesting by inferring that Gerry is Smithman ... and that Gerry was carrying Madeleines dead body


And also changing the facts subtly to fit THEIR agenda


Can we have a level playing field please.


This from the person who makes unsubstantiated claims about mysterious organisations.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 05:39:27 PM
I don't know which thread may be appropriate.

My point is that I don't understand the nitpicking of statements when there is a strong likelihood that there were mistakes for all sorts of reasons.

Here's one by Martin Grime, which - for some reason - I have never noticed being picked up.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES.

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking.
I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.



This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area.
Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.



That's not correct. Keela alerted to the opposite side of the boot area (i.e. behind the passenger's side).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 07:02:21 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 07:07:09 PM
...

My point is that I don't understand the nitpicking of statements when there is a strong likelihood that there were mistakes for all sorts of reasons.

Here's one by Martin Grime, which - for some reason - I have never noticed being picked up.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES.

...

I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door. [/i]


This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area.
Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.



That's not correct. Keela alerted to the opposite side of the boot area (i.e. behind the passenger's side).

Agreed on the mistakes point.  Agreed on the nitpicking point  Agreed on the alert being placed by Martin Grime in the wrong side of the boot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 07:13:54 PM
Deleted.






Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on May 18, 2015, 04:07:27 AM
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?

I think the reason the dog perhaps would not have smelt the same smell from the boot or other door is due to the nature of the way odours disperse. If you think of the way smoke curls and disperses perhaps it's similar to that. It doesn't just disperse evenly it becomes concentrated and collects in certain places. Martin Grimes talks about how these odours can collect in a certain place when Eddie alerts inside the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 18, 2015, 04:15:18 AM
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?
You are assuming that the airflow through the drainholes on all doors is identical. With unequal temperatures and convection currents the in/out airflow will be different for each door. (Edit, this is same as what lordpookies posted).
BTW there are car auctions in many towns. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 18, 2015, 10:21:23 PM
Off Topic posts will be deleted
[/b]
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 18, 2015, 11:51:29 PM
You are assuming that the airflow through the drainholes on all doors is identical. With unequal temperatures and convection currents the in/out airflow will be different for each door. (Edit, this is same as what lordpookies posted).
BTW there are car auctions in many towns.
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 12:10:03 AM
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in

Car doors have drain hole at bottom.
To let out water which accidentally gets inside the door if the window seal wears.
Search a video site for: water in car door
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 19, 2015, 12:29:35 AM
Car doors have drain hole at bottom.
To let out water which accidentally gets inside the door if the window seal wears.
Search a video site for: water in car door

Only lets water out from the internal area of the door …..not the inside rubber sealed side of the car. Please correct me if I misunderstood this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My car door has water in it. How do I keep it from getting in?
I have a 03 Monte Carlo, the passenger door gets water in it. It will only drain out when the door is open. I have looked at the window gaskets and they look just like the ones on the driver side.


Best Answer: Make sure that the drain holes are clear first. If not, then use a small screwdriver to open them up. You will have to replace the seals against the glass to help keep the water out. You can also remove the door panel and use a hose to determine where the water is coming in at.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081108131138AAg630M
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 07:41:35 AM
Car door seals are not 100% air & water tight.

Women wouldn't understand this because they know precisely nothing about cars.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:48:03 AM
Car door seals are not 100% air & water tight.

We have done this before but it does not seem to sink in  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 10:13:18 AM
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in



Guess what?

Car doors have drainage holes in them.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 19, 2015, 01:14:04 PM

Guess what?

Car doors have drainage holes in them.
I bet you they dont link with the inside of the car.  Too draughty

Maybe drainage holes for when the car runs thru a storm and water gets between the window glass and door carcase?  They cant have that void filling up and slopping around.  Must be a further skin of waterproof membrane inside the door.


Think about it Spammy.  Holes from the outside to the interior, alongside the passengers ... and constant draughts etc ?   

Nah

Shoot the designer if they designed that ! 

Only joking about the shooting bit, but possibly a sackable offense?



Actually, it wouldn't get beyond the prototype stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 01:25:04 PM
I bet you they dont link with the inside of the car.  Too draughty

Maybe drainage holes for when the car runs thru a storm and water gets between the window glass and door carcase?  They cant have that void filling up and slopping around.  Must be a further skin of waterproof membrane inside the door.


Think about it Spammy.  Holes from the outside to the interior, alongside the passengers ... and constant draughts etc ?   

Nah

Shoot the designer if they designed that ! 

Only joking about the shooting bit, but possibly a sackable offense?



Actually, it wouldn't get beyond the prototype stage.

Sadie, have much Physics and Chemistry have you studied ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
Rain can leak past external window seal to inside of door.
Air can leak past internal window seal to inside of door.
Inside of door has drainholes to outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 02:24:29 PM
Rain can leak past external window seal to inside of door.
Air can leak past internal window seal to inside of door.
Inside of door has drainholes to outside.

If there are so many holes in vehicle doors (sounds as if they could substitute for colanders) all interior smells would be leaking through all five doors ... why did Eddie alert only to one?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 03:14:35 PM
If there are so many holes in vehicle doors (sounds as if they could substitute for colanders) all interior smells would be leaking through all five doors ... why did Eddie alert only to one?

Have a browse through here to see what a car door looks like before the pretty bits are fitted.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=car+door+images
Not necessarily; study a bit of fluid dynamics or even basic meteorology and you will be able to answer your own question.

For details of drainage holes in car doors click on link:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=drain+holes+in+car+doors
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 03:42:19 PM
hatch door mk1
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 03:44:24 PM
Have a browse through here to see what a car door looks like before the pretty bits are fitted.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=car+door+images
Not necessarily; study a bit of fluid dynamics or even basic meteorology and you will be able to answer your own question.

For details of drainage holes in car doors click on link:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=drain+holes+in+car+doors

                                                  8)--))     Absolutely riveting ...

Now where is the bit that tells us why Eddie wasn't going into paroxysms outside each door ... surely the inside of the car must have been spewing out ~ the scent of death ~ to a band playing?

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
Holes on underside not visible from this camera angle of driver door but black line is where I would put one of them on the underside IMO, might be wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
                                                  8)--))     Absolutely riveting ...

Now where is the bit that tells us why Eddie wasn't going into paroxysms outside each door ... surely the inside of the car must have been spewing out ~ the scent of death ~ to a band playing?

I have given you leads to the wherewithal to work it out for yourself so instead of sneering why don't you do just that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 04:35:27 PM
Holes on underside not visible from this camera angle of driver door but black line is where where I would put one of them on the underside IMO, might be wrong.

As always you pull out all the stops to solve a problem and looking at that illustration ... I think it remains clear that the seal insulates the inside compartment from the outside via an airtight seal on the door. The hole is not designed to evacuate into the vehicle ... I'm with Sadie when she says that = poor design.

By the way ... anyone ever driven a vehicle where the seal on the sun roof has failed?

I don't know why Eddie alerted outside the door, but I have never thought it was to anything inside the vehicle; there is no record of Keela replicating finding cellular material from the same position as Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
I have given you leads to the wherewithal to work it out for yourself so instead of sneering why don't you do just that?

Thank you ... I have watched Levy's video with interest ... and do not feel the need to 'work anything out'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
Thank you ... I have watched Levy's video with interest ... and do not feel the need to 'work anything out'.

What has Levy to do with basic physics?
I presume from the last comment you haven't a clue where to start rather than "I do not feel the need to.....".
Say no more.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 04:45:13 PM
As always you pull out all the stops to solve a problem and looking at that illustration ... I think it remains clear that the seal insulates the inside compartment from the outside via an airtight seal on the door. The hole is not designed to evacuate into the vehicle ... I'm with Sadie when she says that = poor design.

By the way ... anyone ever driven a vehicle where the seal on the sun roof has failed?

I don't know why Eddie alerted outside the door, but I have never thought it was to anything inside the vehicle; there is no record of Keela replicating finding cellular material from the same position as Eddie.
The door drain holes are exterior to the door seals. Good engineering design. So the water can drain out.

ETA, Air can easily go from the seating compartment to the inside of the door.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:31:42 PM
The drain holes are exterior to the door seal. Good engineering design. So the water can drain out.

Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:37:55 PM
What has Levy to do with basic physics?
I presume from the last comment you haven't a clue where to start rather than "I do not feel the need to.....".
Say no more.


     Hmmm ... wasn't aware having an opinion on the work of VRD requires a knowledge of basic physics ... pity the 'experts' in that field can't be bothered to share expertise or maybe they are not as expert as they may pretend to be either in that or any other discipline.
                                                                8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 05:39:48 PM
Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html

Door seals water tight?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSElgsNrKe6Ty5ZhkzEthjI6qmJeCHie-eO4cuJeQ8CeIDb-a0U)

I imagine If she had kept the doors closed, it wouldn't have flooded.

Stupid woman.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 05:40:40 PM
Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
The drainholes (and the other openings like the passenger compartment ventilation intake and outlets) are the equivalent of the cut opening in the brown paper in the other case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
Door seals water tight?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSElgsNrKe6Ty5ZhkzEthjI6qmJeCHie-eO4cuJeQ8CeIDb-a0U)

I imagine If she had kept the doors closed, it wouldn't have flooded.

Stupid woman.

Actually, had she kept the door closed she would have been unable to open it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:51:48 PM
The drainholes (and the other openings like the passenger compartment ventilation intake and outlets) are the equivalent of the cut opening in the brown paper in the other case.

I don't think they are, pegasus.  The door seal does just that ... it seals the water out nor is it a ventilation source. 

As far as the ventilation intake and outlets are concerned ... the ones in my vehicle operate to best advantage when I control them from the dashboard.  So although the vehicle is not designed to be hermetically sealed ... it is not designed to allow either water or air ingress through the doors although it is designed to allow the air to be conditioned and circulated without the requirement to open the windows.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 06:05:04 PM

     Hmmm ... wasn't aware having an opinion on the work of VRD requires a knowledge of basic physics ... pity the 'experts' in that field can't be bothered to share expertise or maybe they are not as expert as they may pretend to be either in that or any other discipline.
                                                                8(>((

The discussion was how scent (airborne) can get from the inside of a car to out.
Draw a section through the car door in position in the frame and sill then see if there is a path for air inside to out or vice versa?
You really do have a poor grasp of this aspect don't you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 06:22:54 PM
Can anyone explain how this could have happened (the nearly suffocating bit, not the stupidity bit)?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2879124/New-Zealand-Couple-Close-Death-Didn-t-Know-Locked-Car.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 06:24:27 PM
Ditto this.  Seeing as cars are full of holes it seems bizarre!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/349009/woman-driver-found-dead-in-car-5-days-after-stopping-for-a-sleep
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 07:29:48 PM
Flow rates and temperature first place to look.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 07:41:09 PM
The discussion was how scent (airborne) can get from the inside of a car to out.
Draw a section through the car door in position in the frame and sill then see if there is a path for air inside to out or vice versa?
You really do have a poor grasp of this aspect don't you?

Precisely.  If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2015, 07:42:08 PM
Unless someone can lay hands on a 2006/2007 Scenic, this one is likely to run for ever.

I have checked my VW carefully.  There are no drain holes in the door itself.  However, the door seal itself has holes in it, and these are either at the very bottom, or are placed on the outside of the seal.  Assuming water can drain into the seal from the door, that would make such water drain to the outside of the car, but only when the door is open.  When the door is closed, the seals squidge tight with nada going in/out.

I'm still sticking with the idea that it was opening the driver door that resulted in the scent around the seal.

I'll be happy to revise that if someone can show that a 2006/2007 Scenic has seals that leak even if the door is closed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 07:49:51 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?

Does it pass muster as a promotional video ... VRD scents death through a car door??

Otherwise I cannot think of a single valid reason why the dog was not deployed within the vehicle.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
How long does it take a car to sink? Write down your answer then watch this https://youtu.be/UZuZgSQZJ9g?t=5m50s and throw your answer in the bin. Anyone still claiming car passenger compartments are sealed? 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:08:11 PM
Precisely. If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?

That was your interpretation of what I said not what I actually said.
The issue was "is a car airtight and how can airborne scent leak out". What doggies do has no bearing on that.
As for the rest it is your customary condescension.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:09:17 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?

No.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 19, 2015, 10:08:01 PM
Precisely.  If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?


There is always the possibility that there were no blood deposits in the luggage compartment at the time Eddie indicated. Keela was not deployed until several hours later - and after the vehicle had been forensically examined by the PJ in a non-sterile environment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 10:15:49 PM

There is always the possibility that there were no blood deposits in the luggage compartment at the time Eddie indicated. Keela was not deployed until several hours later - and after the vehicle had been forensically examined by the PJ in a non-sterile environment.

Wonder if that was before or after they dusted for the bootprint left on the bumper.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 01:26:14 AM
The floor panel is in the boot in the photo showing a box and 2 bags in the boot.
But later when Keela is checking the car, the floor panel has been removed, it is not in the video 
Did Keela examine the luggage area floor panel?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 01:40:25 AM
Sadie, have much Physics and Chemistry have you studied ?

I am a qualified design engineer Stephen.


You dont need Chemistry for air and water flow.  Surely you knew that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:03:35 AM
I don't think they are, pegasus.  The door seal does just that ... it seals the water out nor is it a ventilation source. 

As far as the ventilation intake and outlets are concerned ... the ones in my vehicle operate to best advantage when I control them from the dashboard.  So although the vehicle is not designed to be hermetically sealed ... it is not designed to allow either water or air ingress through the doors although it is designed to allow the air to be conditioned and circulated without the requirement to open the windows.
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 02:05:44 AM
As I said in an earlier post:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/doors.htm

Corrosion of Car Doors
Cars are equipped with drain holes designed to release channeled water runoff. Water seeps into the gap at the base of windows between glass and door panels when the car is washed and during rainstorms. As long as drain holes are kept clear and open, standing water will not accumulate. However, if drains become clogged up with dirt or other debris, water will be trapped at the base of doors to start the rusting process. (reference)  -snip-


So long as the drainage holes are outside the seal, ingressed water from rainfall etc. will drain out via the holes at the bottom of the door, without air or scent getting out from the interior. 

The massive company where I worked made car doors by the thousands, but I never worked in that department.  I walked thru many times and watched the panels being pressed.  IIRC they were assembled elsewhere.


But I did work on the design of tractor cabs and we used door and window seals there. [rather primitive ones]
It was all a long time ago and I cant claim to be an expert now.   However basic engineering principles always tend to stay in the mind.


Seals will have improved imeasurably since then.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:08:21 AM
The floor panel is in the boot in the photo showing a box and 2 bags in the boot.
But later when Keela is checking the car, the floor panel has been removed, it is not in the video 
Did Keela examine the luggage area floor panel?

Page 3238
Photo 26: Shot of the mat from the luggage compartment where vestige number 11 was taken from.

After the examination of the vehicle was complete the human blood specialist sniffer dog was introduced along with Martin Grime of the British police who coordinated the dog?s movements. After a few moments Mr Grime informed the team that they should collect the key and other materials from zone M or from the interior of the luggage compartment given the fact that the dog in reference had identified these materials as places where eventual blood vestiges existed. The undersigned gathered these materials placing them in paper envelopes with the following references:

10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
12. Vehicle ignition key.


Page 3239
Photos 29- 30: Detail of materials referred to as vestige 10 taken from the area marked by the sniffer dog and sent for analysis.


Photo 31: Detail of the key referred to as vestige no. 12.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO Keela did not examine the luggage area floor panel.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?
Plenty of space around the engine compartment, Pegasus, for water to come in

As stated before, the main body of the car has air come in via the front and go out via a rear exhaust system
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:22:55 AM
Deleted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:23:30 AM
As I said in an earlier post:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/doors.htm

Corrosion of Car Doors
Cars are equipped with drain holes designed to release channeled water runoff. Water seeps into the gap at the base of windows between glass and door panels when the car is washed and during rainstorms. As long as drain holes are kept clear and open, standing water will not accumulate. However, if drains become clogged up with dirt or other debris, water will be trapped at the base of doors to start the rusting process. (reference)  -snip-


So long as the drainage holes are outside the seal, ingressed water from rainfall etc. will drain out via the holes at the bottom of the door, without air or scent getting out from the interior. 

The massive company where I worked made car doors by the thousands, but I never worked in that department.  I walked thru many times and watched the panels being pressed.  IIRC they were assembled elsewhere.


But I did work on the design of tractor cabs and we used door and window seals there. [rather primitive ones]
It was all a long time ago and I cant claim to be an expert now.   However basic engineering principles always tend to stay in the mind.


Seals will have improved imeasurably since then.
Thankyou Sadie. But look at where the window slides into the door. Water can enter the outer window seal, air can enter the inner window seal, they are not perfect. Pull the inner window seal back, pour coffee in, and the coffee will come out the drain hole on the bottom of the door to the outside. Even if Eddie was asleep he would wake up and smell it :)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:35:43 AM
Thankyou Misty. I had not noticed photo 26 before. This floor panel would be next to or touching where Keela alerted in the boot. But in the Keela video the floor panel is not there. Photos 29 and 30 of the two plastic trim parts are IIRC parts which PJ kept and substituted new replacement parts back in the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 08:34:39 AM
Thankyou Misty. I had not noticed photo 26 before. This floor panel would be next to or touching where Keela alerted in the boot. But in the Keela video the floor panel is not there. Photos 29 and 30 of the two plastic trim parts are IIRC parts which PJ kept and substituted new replacement parts back in the car?

The Levy videos have never struck me as being kosher. I don't understand why there is no date\time stamp on videos shot for evidential purposes.

I am also at a loss as to why Anna Esse has translated one of the reports from French.

Eddie and Keela carried out the inspection of Apartment 5A on 31st July 2007.

Why was Keela brought back to 5A on 3rd August 2007?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 08:47:18 AM
Now, as to dog deployment.

' If anyone has been following this case -

"jurors found Barry Davis Jr., 34, guilty Monday in a "no body" murder trial after a little more than two hours of deliberation."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781

This was the Florida case in which two cadaver dogs alerted to a car "even though the seats and carpeting in the truck had been removed and the vehicle interior scrubbed clean."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/murder-prosecution-cadaver-dogs-find-evidence-of-human-remains-1.476920 '
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 09:30:44 AM
Now, as to dog deployment.

' If anyone has been following this case -

"jurors found Barry Davis Jr., 34, guilty Monday in a "no body" murder trial after a little more than two hours of deliberation."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781

This was the Florida case in which two cadaver dogs alerted to a car "even though the seats and carpeting in the truck had been removed and the vehicle interior scrubbed clean."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/murder-prosecution-cadaver-dogs-find-evidence-of-human-remains-1.476920 '

Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 09:55:30 AM
Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".

So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:10:00 AM
So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))

To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:11:37 AM
To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?

The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:35:31 AM
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?

Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:44:14 AM
Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.

My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:47:02 AM
My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.

As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 11:04:33 AM
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on?

I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:12:44 AM
I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:14:58 AM
I have taken this from a 2014 article about Cadaver Dogs -

Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.


You see,  unfortunately the chemistry of odours from human cadavers still hasn't been scientifically discovered.   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
Here is another extract from a 2014 article,   they still use pigs -


The research could also help with the training of ‘human remains detection canines’. ‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams. ‘Understanding this helps to improve their work in the field and with training aids. However, research on pigs as analogues for humans is compromised from the start. A human taphonomy facility (where the decomposition of human remains are studied) would boost forensic research.’
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:50:30 AM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 12:19:51 PM
"Decomposition begins several minutes after death with a process called autolysis, or self-digestion. Soon after the heart stops beating, cells become deprived of oxygen, and their acidity increases as the toxic by-products of chemical reactions begin to accumulate inside them".

http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php
http://mosaicscience.com/story/what-happens-after-you-die

That should shed a little light on the matter.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 12:27:24 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

That is the first time I have seen that question posed, Lace.

It is certainly a fact that studies (no Lyall, I don't have a particular cite as I am speaking generally ... but there are plenty of abstracts printed on the internet which will give you the gist of what is going on, if you care to read them) continue to take place to determine the various rates of decomposition of bodily organs and the order in which this occurs.

I think it is generally accepted that such decomposition starts at the moment of death ... and that is also subject of debate as far as organ donation is concerned in relation to being brain dead.

Perhaps the organs of people who have 'died' and been resuscitated did actually start to decompose but were not damaged because of speedy reactivation???

That's very probably nonsense ... davel is your man for an opinion on this, I think.

Very interesting point you have made though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on May 20, 2015, 01:04:19 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 01:10:30 PM

Roughly how long to Riga Mortis?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 01:14:52 PM
Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

Is this what the dogs would smell though?     

In my opinion,   early stages of decomposition would not give off a scent of death,    I would imagine it would be the gasses the dog smells,   these smells are not there for a couple of hours or so.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 01:18:21 PM
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?

You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 01:22:34 PM
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal.

Indications alfred, indications.

Nothing else has come to light in this case.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 01:24:25 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 01:26:09 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 20, 2015, 01:30:07 PM
Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?

If you know, and have expertise is this area, then perhaps in the spirit of furthering knowledge in this forum, you might like to consider the approach of sharing your knowledge?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 01:32:31 PM
You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?

In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure. 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 01:54:21 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

The conclusion is only as reliable as the basic assumption.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 01:54:41 PM
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 01:56:17 PM
In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure.

How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 01:56:38 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 01:58:54 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
How do you know they don't?  What did Zampo the cadaver dog in Sweden alert to 45 times in places where no human remains had ever been?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2015, 02:01:40 PM
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?

Ever heard of a smoke machine?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:04:11 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:08:29 PM
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:10:42 PM
What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?

I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:17:22 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

The dogs can only identify the material they have been trained with. In Eddie's case that includes pig, human & human blood. His training with human remains was limited to the later stages in his career.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:18:05 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:23:00 PM
Interesting;

In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
But we also know they will falsely alert, like Zampo the Swedish cadaver dog did, 45 times in a forested area. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:25:26 PM
You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.

Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

No dog is ever "off duty" at any time. They spend their lives sniffing every inch of their environment, they mark their territory and they know who has been in their territory, they introduce themselves to other dogs by sniffing and being sniffed, they introduce themselves to humans by sniffing.

They are trained to switch on and to switch off to scents which their handler has trained them to respond to as a game.  They are playing a game and they know when their handler wants them to play and when their handler doesn't want them to play.

They are not calibrated scientific instruments ... which is why their alerts can only be taken as indications ... the clincher has to be corroborating forensic evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:22:44 PM
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.

They didn't seem to attach a great deal of significance to wearing protective overshoes or any other kind of protective clothing.  Cross contamination could never have been ruled out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:26:49 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

I don't think they do know the "true scent" ... I think they will react to any one of the components which make up the "true scent".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:28:38 PM
Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
Interesting;

In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
Thanks for posting that G-Unit. The important question is, what is the minimum PMI (postmorteminterval) which can later be detected by a dog. That carpet square experiment doesn't tell us the minimum PMI required, it just tells us that 3hrs is above that minimum (because no subjects with shorter PMI were tested).

This experiment http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html found that to produce an alert, the PMI must be at least 1hr25mins.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
The conclusion is only as reliable as the basic assumption.

and how many on here have a clue about what the alerts really signify..There is no rael scientific  information about the reliability of the alerts yet amaral made the claim that Maddie died in the apartment and is believed by several thousand gullible people...at least I am being honest...shame amaral wasn't
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 04:01:24 PM
I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?

there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 04:03:20 PM
there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..

Many repeat donations.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 04:09:27 PM
If amaral had not resigned from the PJ....Would he have been sacked and lost his pension when he was given the criminal conviction
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 20, 2015, 04:10:50 PM
Thanks for posting that G-Unit. The important question is, what is the minimum PMI (postmorteminterval) which can later be detected by a dog. That carpet square experiment doesn't tell us the minimum PMI required, it just tells us that 3hrs is above that minimum (because no subjects with shorter PMI were tested).

This experiment http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html found that to produce an alert, the PMI must be at least 1hr25mins.

That study appears to be limited.

- There is no indication, based on that, as to how long a scent would remain discernible when open to the air  (and not in sealed bags) in an apartment rented out and no doubt aired by numerous people.

- Eddie didn't inspect that apartment until months later.

- What absorbent material did Eddie react to (carefully sealed or not), either in that apartment or in the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:22:43 PM
If amaral had not resigned from the PJ....Would he have been sacked and lost his pension when he was given the criminal conviction

Was it a case of jump or be shoved?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 04:24:40 PM
Was it a case of jump or be shoved?

looks like it...perhaps that was the REAL reason he retired early.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:28:36 PM
looks like it...perhaps that was the REAL reason he retired early.

The Policia Judicial had been attempting to clean up their act when this all came upon them in 2007.  Mr Amaral might very well have retained his post had it been down to the powers that be in Faro/Portimao but once Lisbon got involved it was game over.  For him it was an unfortunate set of circumstances which came together at the most inopportune time.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:38:34 PM
there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..

Does anyone?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 04:40:11 PM
The Policia Judicial had been attempting to clean up their act when this all came upon them in 2007.  Mr Amaral might very well have retained his post had it been down to the powers that be in Faro/Portimao but once Lisbon got involved it was game over.  For him it was an unfortunate set of circumstances which came together at the most inopportune time.

I've always been of the opinion he was way out of his depth in being tasked with the investigation in the first place; being made an arguido the following day compounded that.
I think the powers that be should have drafted in officers with some experience of dealing with child protection issues.  In the wake of Casa Pia ... surely there must have been some.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 04:41:06 PM
Does anyone?

does Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
does Grime
Of course he does, what a silly question!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 05:09:38 PM
Of course he does, what a silly question!

grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

Thirty-odd years;

Police on Thursday revived their search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old who disappeared in 1979 en route to a New York City bus stop, after a cadaver-sniffing dog recently detected the odor of human remains in a basement near Patz’s SoHo home.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded

Exactly. The dog alerts suggest cadaver scent because that is what the dog was trained to alert to, what he alerted to in actual case searches. Mr Grime does not suggest anything else, therefore it is a given that he is pretty sure. He did also say it is in his "professional opinion" (that should give you an extra clue).

Whether posters make a small, medium or a giant leap to any ideas or conclusions is by the by. But please don't suggest the dog handler doesn't know what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:30:52 PM
Exactly. The dog alerts suggest cadaver scent because that is what the dog was trained to alert to, what he alerted to in actual case searches. Mr Grime does not suggest anything else, therefore it is a given that he is pretty sure. He did also say it is in his "professional opinion" (that should give you an extra clue).

Whether posters make a small, medium or a giant leap to any ideas or conclusions is by the by. But please don't suggest the dog handler doesn't know what he is talking about.

Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:34:41 PM
Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?

If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 05:38:06 PM
If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.

so according to that it was blood...we now know Gerry's .....so no cadaver in the car
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 05:42:43 PM
grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded

Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:43:42 PM
If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.

Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 05:46:50 PM
Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.
More than a possibility?!  How so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:50:21 PM
Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?

Experience? I don't know because he didn't say.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 05:52:13 PM
Thirty-odd years;

Police on Thursday revived their search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old who disappeared in 1979 en route to a New York City bus stop, after a cadaver-sniffing dog recently detected the odor of human remains in a basement near Patz’s SoHo home.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

if you read the whole article it says later..
single human vertebra, more than 30 years old, was buried 12 inches deep...so where remains, remain...yes...but there is no reliable information on how long the scent of death lasts..

We could ask our resident expert in chemistry perhaps...

With dilution through airflow it would be surprising if a single molecule of a gas would remain


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 05:53:45 PM
Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.

not more than a possibility...just a possibility
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:57:44 PM
Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?

GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:59:16 PM
Experience? I don't know because he didn't say.

So why wasn't Keela deployed to inspect the point at which Eddie indicated, ie, the outside of the vehicle? There was no evidence Eddie was not indicating to blood on the exterior of the vehicle at that stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:00:32 PM
GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.

So why did Eddie have to be put inside the wardrobe in 5a before he indicated?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.

so again we have no confirmation of cadaver in the car
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?
An alert on the outside of the car would have been easier to film than an alert on the inside of the car... ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:08:57 PM
not more than a possibility...just a possibility

and absolutely no evidence of abduction. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:11:58 PM
so according to that it was blood...we now know Gerry's .....so no cadaver in the car

Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 06:12:46 PM
and absolutely no evidence of abduction. 8((()*/

none that you understand
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:14:34 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.
What does it mean then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:22:08 PM
So why did Eddie have to be put inside the wardrobe in 5a before he indicated?

I don' think there is any mystery here. Eddie will hone in eventually to the source of the scent he is looking for. He ran around the whole bedroom trying to find it. He settled in an area near the wardrobe. It could have been the bed nearest the wardrobe, not necessarily the wardrobe, although it could have been. The point is he settled in an area near there outwith a large room at least three times a car area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 06:23:02 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.


Keela detects only blood. Forensic science is not so exact, so the FSS couldn't say what it was, but it contained DNA. There could have been blood and cadaver odour in the car, but we don't know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:25:22 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.

How quickly would the odour from the blood on the key have dissipated from the closed car  into the surrounding area, & up to 10m away & still be scented by Eddie?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
so again we have no confirmation of cadaver in the car

There is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour. If there were, there wouldn't be hundreds of posts arguing the toss (excuse my French). You see, science hasn't yet caught up with cadaver dog capabilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:29:14 PM
I don' think there is any mystery here. Eddie will hone in eventually to the source of the scent he is looking for. He ran around the whole bedroom trying to find it. He settled in an area near the wardrobe. It could have been the bed nearest the wardrobe, not necessarily the wardrobe, although it could have been. The point is he settled in an area near there outwith a large room at least three times a car area.
Grime was quite specific that Eddie was indicating to the wardrobe. What you are suggesting is that there could have been blood on the carpet....or the bed...or the bedcovers....none of which were forensically tested....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
and how many on here have a clue about what the alerts really signify..There is no rael scientific  information about the reliability of the alerts yet amaral made the claim that Maddie died in the apartment and is believed by several thousand gullible people...at least I am being honest...shame amaral wasn't
I was referring to your conclusion.

You posted:

from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts.
Your conclusion is: that blows a massive hole in the alerts. based on your assumption prefaced with  I think.

Maybe you should read some of the papers on the use of dogs in looking for MIAs in Vietnam 25 years plus after the event.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:43:54 PM
I wish there was a multiquote function here.

@Alfred, all it means is that there is a possibility both scents are found in the same place

@GUnit, I was referring to the FSS results not being 100% definite that they found Gerry's DNA, whether it came from blood or shed skin cells, etc. This is in the context of many posters stating it as a fact whilst at the same time insisting Madeleine Mccanns DNA was not found, (in other samples) when both results were not conclusive and both samples contained DNA markers from them both.

@Misty, there is no point asking me about the intricacies of blood odour dispersal and timelines, I don't know.

@Misty, no, I am not suggesting there could have been blood in the carpet or bedcovers,  and Eddie alerted to that, for the simple reason that if there were, Keela will have indicated there, but she did not. (Remember Mr Grime sayng, "if there is blood there, she will find it")

I am cooking and posting at the same time. NOT a good idea, so need to go for a wee bit. Fascinating subject though.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
none that you understand

Well provide  evidence that can be backed up.

Surely you can do that.

P.S. People standing in a street looking at a building  isn't evidence of abduction.

it's mere desperation.

Since with no abduction................................
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 07:01:12 PM
I wish there was a multiquote function here.

@Alfred, all it means is that there is a possibility both scents are found in the same place

@GUnit, I was referring to the FSS results not being 100% definite that they found Gerry's DNA, whether it came from blood or shed skin cells, etc. This is in the context of many posters stating it as a fact whilst at the same time insisting Madeleine Mccanns DNA was not found, (in other samples) when both results were not conclusive and both samples contained DNA markers from them both.

@Misty, there is no point asking me about the intricacies of blood odour dispersal and timelines, I don't know.

@Misty, no, I am not suggesting there could have been blood in the carpet or bedcovers,  and Eddie alerted to that, for the simple reason that if there were, Keela will have indicated there, but she did not. (Remember Mr Grime sayng, "if there is blood there, she will find it")

I am cooking and posting at the same time. NOT a good idea, so need to go for a wee bit. Fascinating subject though.

RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:18:14 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.

The FSS said;

A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)). This sample has not been sent for further testing using LCN DNA profiling tests.

I don't know why they didn't test further.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2015, 07:27:00 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Eddie says 'there's something here!' Keela says 'one of the things here is blood!'
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 07:34:40 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:43:01 PM
RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:46:51 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

No we do not, but we have a good idea, and that is as far as the cadaver dog alerts go as their capabilities can't be as yet matched by "science".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:47:13 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

Scientists cannot list the components of the 'scent of death', true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)
You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 07:50:24 PM
He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.

cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 07:52:41 PM
cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

It has been by Scotland Yard. They used cadaver dogs last year.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 07:58:57 PM
Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!

The problem here is that the forensics Keela found, backing up Eddie's alerts, do not match the DNA of the cadaver the PJ expected to find evidence of.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 07:59:24 PM
You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

Trying to sound clever but we are not talking fluids...we are talking gases...the dogs are detecting gases not fluids or solids as none were found. Any gases would have dissipated from the car...and the flower bed and possibly the apartment due to Brownian motion which would create constant dilution.

there is no concrete evidence that the dog's detected a cadaver...as Grime pointed out there are several scenarios that could have produced the contamination
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:59:37 PM
cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:02:10 PM
I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadVer scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?
If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:08:37 PM
I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?

just to correct you yet again......

Intestinal anaerobic bacteria transform haemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin and other colored pigments.

So the presence of minute traces of sulfhaemoglobin would confirm the cadavrine contamination...100%
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:14:03 PM
If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong

Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt and alerted to, with some small provisos

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:16:23 PM
Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt

And the scent of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car.

Could detect a scent on clothing in the gym; but no scent on the same clothing in the villa.

Most strange.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:17:46 PM
And the scent of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car.

Could detect a scent on clothing in the gym; but no scent on the same clothing in the villa.

Most strange.

It hasn'tbeen established it was Gerry's blood and secondly, it's only a possibility.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:18:27 PM
Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt and alerted to, with some small provisos

I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:21:37 PM
It hasn'tbeen established it was Gerry's blood and secondly, it's only a possibility, keep up

The substance matched Gerry's DNA (I'll grant, not identified as blood).

But if it wasn't blood, then Keela must have alerted falsely, because she is not trained to react to anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....

You don't get to be the highest paid dog in Britain for getting it wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:22:23 PM
Let's get back to the topic.

Even if a hundred posters go into the annals and intricacies of cadaver dog history, Amaral  and his team ( or the other way around) was given x y z information at the time and came to a theory/conclusion....that's that and what happened at the time...it really wasn't their problem
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:24:27 PM
Let's get back to the topic.

Even if a hundred posters go into the annals and intricacies of cadaver dog history, Amaral  and his team ( or the other way around) was given x y z information at the time and came to a theory/conclusion....that's that and what happened at the time...it really wasn't their problem

That may have been what happened at the time ...but by the time amaral wrote his book Grime had said the alerts had no evidential reliability...amaral continued with his lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:25:26 PM
You don't get to be the highest paid dog in Britain for getting it wrong.

Maybe, a touch of hyperbole in reporting, there.

There is an FOI answer somewhere that gives the breakdown of costs of hiring Eddie, and it's nothing like the amounts touted in the press.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:30:58 PM
I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....

What is your problem exactly Dave? Why do you feel the need to put words into peoples mouths and also misconstrue what they have posted? I don't recall anyone asking me to admit anything for starters. And to finish because you are being tiresome, a) where is the "lie" in the fact that Eddie has never been wrong in 200 case searches and b) no one knows if there was a body in 5a or not. If they suggest they do they are being dishonest although it is totally acceptable also to believe there is no possibility (for reasons other than the dog alerts).End of, period. If you have trouble comprehending, do give me anither shout, I'm always willing to educate where I can. It's my day off work and was looking forward to posting, please don't spoil it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:35:31 PM
That may have been what happened at the time ...but by the time amaral wrote his book Grime had said the alerts had no evidential reliability...amaral continued with his lies

Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:38:29 PM
What is your problem exactly Dave? Why do you feel the need to put words into peoples mouths and also misconstrue what they have posted? I don't recall anyone asking me to admit anything for starters. And to finish because you are being tiresome, a) where is the "lie" in the fact that Eddie has never been wrong in 200 case searches and b) no one knows if there was a body in 5a or not. If they suggest they do they are being dishonest although it is totally acceptable also to believe there is no possibility (for reasons other than the dog alerts).End of, period. If you have trouble comprehending, do give me anither shout, I'm always willing to educate where I can. It's my day off work and was looking forward to posting, please don't spoil it.

it has been claimed on here and elsewhere that eddie has never been wrong in 200 cases...that's a lie

Amaral has not suggested there was  a  body in 5a he has stated it as a fact...that's another lie

if you think you can educate me you are deluded

If you post expect to be challenged by those who don't agree with you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 08:40:35 PM
removed

Much is made of the training & achievements of the dogs, but little attention is paid to the handler's own training in the various relevant areas.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:40:44 PM
Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.

so why didn't amaral reflect the truth in what Grime said.....the thread is about amaral misrepresenting what the alerts signified
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:40:48 PM
removed

Friday 23 April 2004
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:42:44 PM
Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.

this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 08:45:37 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

Got it in one, Shining ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 08:53:25 PM
it has been claimed on here and elsewhere that eddie has never been wrong in 200 cases...that's a lie

Amaral has not suggested there was  a  body in 5a he has stated it as a fact...that's another lie

if you think you can educate me you are deluded

If you post expect to be challenged by those who don't agree with you

Well you said it dave.

It's too late to educate you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:59:11 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 08:59:59 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

no
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 09:00:57 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

Well, you might ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 09:02:14 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

would you be prepared to beat a confession out of him
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 09:03:13 PM
no

YES unless he worked in a morgue with dead people. To have that odour alerted by the dog he would be arrested on suspicion of murder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 09:05:01 PM
Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how Keela isn't completely superfluous if what you're saying is correct.  Eddie alerts to a spot, humans do a forensic sweep.  Why bother with Keela in such a scenario?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 09:08:58 PM
Maybe, a touch of hyperbole in reporting, there.

There is an FOI answer somewhere that gives the breakdown of costs of hiring Eddie, and it's nothing like the amounts touted in the press.

We have discussed the situation on many occasions on the forum and the situation regarding the deployment and the payment exceeding the Chief Constables salary debunked every time.

DCI posted ...

Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times.

This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.

Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States.

An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documentation confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn't make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1626.20;wap2
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 09:10:37 PM
YES unless he worked in a morgue with dead people. To have that odour alerted by the dog he would be arrested on suspicion of murder.

what about if he had sat next to someone who worked in a morgue for 30 mins on the train...never mind he confessed after the torture
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 09:22:03 PM
what about if he had sat next to someone who worked in a morgue for 30 mins on the train...never mind he confessed after the torture

What if he told you a load of BS. You think they're gonna let him leave? It's ok our cadaver dog alerted to you but you can go  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 20, 2015, 09:25:27 PM
What if he told you a load of BS. You think they're gonna let him leave? It's ok our cadaver dog alerted to you but you can go  @)(++(*

as I said...beat the truth out of him..

The drug dog alerted to me at Sydney Airport...they told me I could go
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 20, 2015, 09:29:29 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 20, 2015, 09:50:59 PM
Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*

Traslation of: "Conclui-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine McCann"

"It was then concluded that the cadaver odour could only come from one person: Madeleine McCann."

Any police force would come to the same conclusion.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 09:54:23 PM
Traslation of: "Conclui-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine McCann"

"It was then concluded that the cadaver odour could only come from one person: Madeleine McCann."

Any police force would come to the same conclusion.

Except that those representatives of British police forces, present in PdL, didn't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 20, 2015, 10:06:46 PM
Except that those representatives of British police forces, present in PdL, didn't.

What would your "logical" conclusion be? I'm sure that if the dogs had alerted to all things concerned with Robert Murat, you would not criticise them or their trainer in any way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 10:16:14 PM
Trying to sound clever but we are not talking fluids...we are talking gases...the dogs are detecting gases not fluids or solids as none were found. Any gases would have dissipated from the car...and the flower bed and possibly the apartment due to Brownian motion which would create constant dilution.

there is no concrete evidence that the dog's detected a cadaver...as Grime pointed out there are several scenarios that could have produced the contamination

Where were you taught a gas is not a fluid?

fluid
ˈfluːɪd/
noun
noun: fluid; plural noun: fluids
    1.
    a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid.


In physics, a fluid is a substance that continually deforms (flows) under an applied shear stress. Fluids are a subset of the phases of matter and include liquids, gases, plasmas and, to some extent, plastic solids.

Or you could check out in Fluid Dynamics by J.D Francis who was Professor at ICL

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

You seem to be continually shifting the goalposts, is there any particular reason why anyone after debating with youand with whom you disagree should even bother to keep up with said shenanigans?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:40:19 PM
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how Keela isn't completely superfluous if what you're saying is correct.  Eddie alerts to a spot, humans do a forensic sweep.  Why bother with Keela in such a scenario?

That is the point, Eddie does not alert to a specific spot, cadaver scent does not settle in a minute specific place like blood does
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:44:59 PM
That is the point, Eddie does not alert to a specific spot, cadaver scent does not settle in a minute specific place like blood does
So Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat or behind the sofa or to the flowerbed (which incidentally was never dug up)...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:51:17 PM
Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*

No no no, a book written in Portuguese,translated into French and then retranslated into English could never be mistranslated,steady on!

 ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:52:25 PM
So Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat or behind the sofa or to the flowerbed (which incidentally was never dug up)...? &%+((£
None were specific spots but if you want to  annalise specific spots be my guest
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:53:59 PM
None were specific spots
Cuddlecat wasn't specific enough, so Keela gets called in to sniff the toy to find the cadaver fluids?  If you say so!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:59:17 PM
Cuddlecat wasn't specific enough, so Keela gets called in to sniff the toy to find the cadaver fluids?  If you say so!

It may have been. We have no record of Keela vis a vis  scenting the toy.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 11:03:03 PM
What would your "logical" conclusion be? I'm sure that if the dogs had alerted to all things concerned with Robert Murat, you would not criticise them or their trainer in any way.

I have long thought Robert Murat an innocent and wronged man.

So I'm not quite sure what your point is?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:04:12 PM
It may have been. We have no record of Keela vis a vis  scenting the toy.
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 11:07:52 PM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

Again, finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on the toy would be no big deal.

Plenty of innocent explanations of how it might have got there ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:12:32 PM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

Well, yes. Thats exactly how Keela does it
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:14:43 PM
Well, yes. Thats exactly how Keela does it
So where on cuddlecat did Keela point her nose?  And if her nose was not called in to operation on the toy please explain why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:15:32 PM
Again, finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on the toy would be no big deal.

Plenty of innocent explanations of how it might have got there ...

Of course, which is why Eddie was brought in, to find an indicator of death, whether Keela alerted or not ,because after all, you can have a death  with no blood
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:19:47 PM
So where on cuddlecat did Keela point her nose?  And if her nose was not called in to operation on the toy please explain why not?

Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 11:23:34 PM
Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get

What would she do if it was on the underside?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:27:27 PM
Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get
Are you planning to insult me in every reply you make to me? 

Any reason why Keela would not have been asked to sniff out traces of blood or cadaver juice on the toy? 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:28:18 PM
What would she do if it was on the underside?
If there is blood there Keela will find it... (Source: Mr Grime, SY police dog handler)

Topside or other
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:33:44 PM
Are you planning to insult me in every reply you make to me? 

Any reason why Keela would not have been asked to sniff out traces of blood or cadaver juice on the toy?

A) I havenot insulted you in every post Ive made to you so why say as much? Bit rich though coming from someone who insults people at will here, never mind though
B) I have no idea because, for the third time, wehave no record, so please explain, seeing as there is no record why I would know of any reason

I did write  a pertinent C) but someones removed it oh well
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 11:40:36 PM
If there is blood there Keela will find it... (Source: Mr Grime, SY police dog handler)

Topside or other

She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:46:05 PM
She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.

Dont know dont care but carry on trashing the dogs, night dear
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 11:48:43 PM
She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.

Yes she would. She finds blood on weapons that have been wiped clean. Do you think they don't check the underside of them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 21, 2015, 06:02:32 AM
We have discussed the situation on many occasions on the forum and the situation regarding the deployment and the payment exceeding the Chief Constables salary debunked every time.

DCI posted ...

Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times.

This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.

Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States.

An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documentation confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn't make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1626.20;wap2

Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 21, 2015, 08:03:14 AM
Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/

That grew arms and legs...

From his résumé:
- In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

- The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'


In his report, "cases" became modified to "case searches":

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches
the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption
. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

How it can be said that he's never reacted to a dead animal is a mystery to me, as he was trained on dead piglets and there's no mention of which types of road kill he had effectively encountered.


Then, from an FOI disclosure (no longer online at the SYP site), it seems that Eddie had only been deployed a total of 37 times between 2003 and 2007.

Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062 (dead link)

Tavares de Almeida understood this to mean:
It must be highlighted that the resource to this kind of inspection is frequent in the UK and the success rate is 100%.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

I've seen this morphed by fans into the assertion that Eddie had a 100% success rate and secured over 200 convictions...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 21, 2015, 09:28:43 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 09:56:36 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

Excellent post.  8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 21, 2015, 10:04:13 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

Some people here begin with the premiss that the McCanns are guilty, despite there being no evidence to back the premiss up.

It is a rather curious and about-face way of recommending that justice is done, thank goodness, not subscribed to by the powers-that-be in Portugal.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 21, 2015, 10:21:15 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.


I disagree.   IMO one of the main differences between 'supporters' and 'sceptics' is that supporters have made up their minds based on the available evidence, whilst many sceptics have made up their minds based on lies, myths and disinformation - which even after 8 years are STILL being trotted out over the internet as 'the troof' on a regular basis.   

This includes myths and disinformation about the dogs from sceptics who want to believe that if Eddie alerted then it is a FACT  that a dead body must have been present at 5A - even though Martin Grime emphasized that it is NOT a FACT and points out that there are various other innocent reasons why an alert may occur. 

Some sceptics have done exactly the same as Amaral and cherry picked only what suits them regarding the dogs  - and completely ignored everything about the dogs which doesn't suit them - pretending it doesn't exist.

Fortunately that is not how SY carry out their investigations.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 21, 2015, 10:29:36 AM
Please try and stay on topic

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 21, 2015, 10:48:46 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 11:01:57 AM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..

That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 21, 2015, 11:03:08 AM
That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.

as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:04:28 AM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..

I went with the Amaral interpretation of the results of the dog inspections having had the 'Dogs Don't Lie' mantra chanted at me ... then I watched the Levy video courtesy of a link provided by one of the aunties ... then I read up on what it is working dogs actually do in an investigation.

I watched the nauseating pamalam videos ... and subjected myself to studying the 'evidence' on some of the great aunties' sites ... I even managed to read some of the files.

So please don't tell me I don't have an informed view ... (and I don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes)... any conclusions I have reached were enabled by the information I sourced and using a modicum of common sense ... not a belief system.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:11:45 AM
That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.

You may be content to have your intelligence insulted by myths, lies and innuendo, others have thought it through and it is not a matter of belief or opinion ... it rests on evidence or the lack of it ... and a person's right to the presumption of innocence even if their surname is McCann. 

Exactly what was it about Mr Amaral's interpretation of the result of the dog inspections that overrides the results provided by the FSS?

Must be something really concrete and compelling ... so please don't hold back ... do tell.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 11:17:34 AM
I went with the Amaral interpretation of the results of the dog inspections having had the 'Dogs Don't Lie' mantra chanted at me ... then I watched the Levy video courtesy of a link provided by one of the aunties ... then I read up on what it is working dogs actually do in an investigation.

I watched the nauseating pamalam videos ... and subjected myself to studying the 'evidence' on some of the great aunties' sites ... I even managed to read some of the files.

So please don't tell me I don't have an informed view ... (and I don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes)... any conclusions I have reached were enabled by the information I sourced and using a modicum of common sense ... not a belief system.

So did I, much to my shame, although that Levy Edited Video didn't help.  That was quite deliberate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 11:59:35 AM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

A more precise version of this maybe?:
The pointer is employed to find upland game. In performing its task as a hunters' aid, these skills may be expected from Pointers when hunting:
    Point – The dog finds and points out the location of birds.
    Honor – The dog stops immediately or within a few steps, usually in a pointing stance, upon observing a bracemate on point.


Being lascivious and non pc by nature I find point one quite entertaining.
   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..


Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 02:15:25 PM

Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.

Unfortunately a lot of the mtyhmisconceptions emanated from the co-ordinator of the investigation and some very flawed reasoning formed the basis of his approach ~ none more so than his misunderstanding of the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence. 

He dealt with many drug cases in his career ... did the Portuguese not have trained sniffer dogs helping in these investigations which might have given him a better understanding of how the dogs actually worked and how they were used?


... quote ...
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 03:02:42 PM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.
Funnily enough I would say exactly the same about "sceptics" who seem to have blind faith in the ability of a pair of dogs and who won't hear a negative word said against them, even if it comes in the form of scientific research proving issues such as the potential for handler bias (see my link).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 03:51:42 PM
A more precise version of this maybe?:
The pointer is employed to find upland game. In performing its task as a hunters' aid, these skills may be expected from Pointers when hunting:
    Point – The dog finds and points out the location of birds.
    Honor – The dog stops immediately or within a few steps, usually in a pointing stance, upon observing a bracemate on point.


Being lascivious and non pc by nature I find point one quite entertaining.
 
A slight difference between pointing to a dead bird and pointing precisely to a speck of blood not visible to the naked eye - the dog's nose would have to hover millimetres above the speck surely?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 21, 2015, 04:36:45 PM

Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.

let's have some examples then...I guarantee you will struggle
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 06:40:02 PM
let's have some examples then...I guarantee you will struggle

1. Abduction.

2. Exhibiting responsible parenting skills.
 
3. Going out to dine at the tapas. When in fact they were drinking as well.

4.  Claiming to be devout catholics.   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

More to come.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 06:43:03 PM
1. Abduction.

2. Exhibiting responsible parenting skills.
 
3. Going out to dine at the tapas. When in fact they were drinking as well.

4.  Claiming to be devout catholics.   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

More to come.

Topic.  If You Please.  This is not a request.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 06:54:23 PM
Topic.  If You Please.  This is not a request.

Have you asked dave to do the same ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 21, 2015, 06:59:13 PM
Have you asked dave to do the same ? &%+((£

since Eleanor's request I have not responded....it is Montclair's post that has taken this thread off topic
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 07:00:45 PM

All of you.  This isn't personal.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 07:00:51 PM
Unfortunately a lot of the mtyhmisconceptions emanated from the co-ordinator of the investigation and some very flawed reasoning formed the basis of his approach ~ none more so than his misunderstanding of the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence. 

He dealt with many drug cases in his career ... did the Portuguese not have trained sniffer dogs helping in these investigations which might have given him a better understanding of how the dogs actually worked and how they were used?


... quote ...
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral

Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM
A slight difference between pointing to a dead bird and pointing precisely to a speck of blood not visible to the naked eye - the dog's nose would have to hover millimetres above the speck surely?

Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 07:32:47 PM
Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 21, 2015, 07:43:02 PM
We could just listen to what Grime says......shame amaral didn't.  Amaral ignored Grime's reports and reached his own false conclusions...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 07:50:07 PM
Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".

Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 08:06:41 PM
Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 08:12:07 PM
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

I wouldn't know see my previous post.
If we are going to preface with "I would have thought" or insert "logically" or "You don't have to know anything about dogs to know something about them" and similar, into opinions it suggests we don't know.
You may think you know; I know I don't know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 21, 2015, 08:25:47 PM
It's July. The hypothesis of death, including by the parents, is being seriously considered.

A few days later, we welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (GA)

Commander Mark Harrison

Australian Federal Police

Mark joined the British Police Service in 1987 as a sworn officer where he initially performed uniform general duties. He progressed his career and focused in counter terrorism and the forensic aspects of search.

In 2002 Mark was appointed the British Police national coordinator for serial homicide, abduction and matters of national security where there were matters relating to forensic search. He fulfilled a senior detective leadership role as a consultant to fellow detectives and to government policy forums, consulting widely within the UK and other countries including, but not limiting to, the USA, Australia and New Zealand.

In 2004 Mark was awarded by HM The Queen the MBE for services to policing in relation to serial homicide and counter terrorist investigations.

In 2007 Mark was awarded a visiting professorship in earth and ocean sciences specializing in geoforensics in recognition to the contribution he has made in this emerging area of forensic science.

In 2010 Mark joined the Australian Federal Police as the coordinator of their crime scene sciences department and was promoted to Commander in February 2012 where he currently leads a large diverse team of operational forensic staff.

http://forensicacademy.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Efficient-Forensic-Science-2.pdf
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 21, 2015, 09:49:01 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:40:19 PM
Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/

The police do not consider them "fun and games". They don't have a budget for this.

Read the False Alerts section here :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It clearly states that Eddie was used 200 times but not in 200 cases

200 criminal case "searches" is the clue

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:46:03 PM
Funnily enough I would say exactly the same about "sceptics" who seem to have blind faith in the ability of a pair of dogs and who won't hear a negative word said against them, even if it comes in the form of scientific research proving issues such as the potential for handler bias (see my link).

Not so much "blind faith" (bit of an exageration there)  as an aversion to the myriad of "possibilities and probabilities" put forth as to what the cadaver dog was alerting to (and all myriad ideas relating only to the one apartment someone went "missing from" which is illogicl in itself)

The dog handler tells us what he alerts to but we have a very very long list "created" by "non-sceptics"

Now, who was saying something about "myths"?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 21, 2015, 10:48:24 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

The routine change was earlier.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:48:47 PM
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

Not sure why you are still banging on about this. Keela the blood dog does get "up close and personal" to the blood she detects.

Do you have an example of where she has not done so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:00:55 PM
If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?

As much reliability as any document translated from one language to another then to another and back again the Lord knows how many times.

Inspection of the apartments.
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 11:04:12 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

That is only if you believe Madeleine Mccann was alive at 9.15... Just saying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:46:32 PM


More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder. Goncalo Amaral



One truly has to wonder at the unswerving belief in a view of the world which is at variance with matters of record.

The coconut shell was not a body ... the bones were animal ... the teeth were milk teeth.  Where did it say anything about a body being buried under a flagstone in the pages of  Operation HAVEN?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 22, 2015, 12:00:35 AM
I wouldn't know see my previous post.
If we are going to preface with "I would have thought" or insert "logically" or "You don't have to know anything about dogs to know something about them" and similar, into opinions it suggests we don't know.
You may think you know; I know I don't know.
Come now Alice, we are told the blood dog signals the precise presence of microscopic traces of blood with her nose.  There is only one way that a dog can alert to something that small at anything approaching precisision and that is by hovering its nose precisely and closely over the speck.  Perhaps if it had fingers it could be trained to point with one of those instead, perhaps that will be the next generation of wonder dog to be developed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
The routine change was earlier.
Routine changes never has solved a case, science of dogs has.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 22, 2015, 04:57:54 AM
The police do not consider them "fun and games". They don't have a budget for this.

Read the False Alerts section here :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It clearly states that Eddie was used 200 times but not in 200 cases

200 criminal case "searches" is the clue

SY has a budget for fun and games.

The mound they searched in mid-2014 is/was - probably occupied by one Godfrey Barrington Norton in May 2007 - a main route into Luz from the west side of the town and from Burgau - overlooked by the Paraíso development and the St James complex - probably overlooked by the Amici Italian restaurant (it opened in 2007 and it makes sense to open it at the start of season, but I don't know that for a fact, hence the probably) - it looks like a nothing little road going through the mound, but the reality is that the one-way system forces traffic to use it - and you can't manually dig holes in the middle of Luz without one hell of a lot of time, one hell of a lot of effort and one hell of a lot of noise.

The cemetery uses a JCB for graves, ditto all the drain schemes and road works.

Yet we had SY with pickaxes and shovels.  In central Luz.  If you are old enough you will remember Brian Rix farces.

What has this got to do with Amaral and the dogs?  The dogs were marketed as rocket science, when they were anything but.  I have had months to examine the capability of the dogs.  The timescale on the case was much shorter, and the information available then is what I would describe as skewed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:02:03 AM

Witness JW testifies the chat was completly normal. Theories of some early disaster are made by forums not by VDM. Back to dogs, had the dog ever been tested on scent pads of PMIs of only tens of minutes?
(In experiment with 5 trained dogs, none of them alerted the 1 hr 10 mins sample)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:22:16 AM
SY has a budget for fun and games.

The mound they searched in mid-2014 is/was - probably occupied by one Godfrey Barrington Norton in May 2007 - a main route into Luz from the west side of the town and from Burgau - overlooked by the Paraíso development and the St James complex - probably overlooked by the Amici Italian restaurant (it opened in 2007 and it makes sense to open it at the start of season, but I don't know that for a fact, hence the probably) - it looks like a nothing little road going through the mound, but the reality is that the one-way system forces traffic to use it - and you can't manually dig holes in the middle of Luz without one hell of a lot of time, one hell of a lot of effort and one hell of a lot of noise.

The cemetery uses a JCB for graves, ditto all the drain schemes and road works.

Yet we had SY with pickaxes and shovels.  In central Luz.  If you are old enough you will remember Brian Rix farces.

What has this got to do with Amaral and the dogs?  The dogs were marketed as rocket science, when they were anything but.  I have had months to examine the capability of the dogs.  The timescale on the case was much shorter, and the information available then is what I would describe as skewed.
The dogs are very valuable and not make huge wrong assumptions like human investigators do. In a recent case a dog indicated to an attic but was ignored first time by investigators. The dog was right BTW.
You identify the hill right and that night a group of early searchers including nannies went up there and spoke with him (nothing to do with the case).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2015, 07:17:14 AM
Routine changes never has solved a case, science of dogs has.

It will all be there in the end case as it all connects.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 22, 2015, 08:03:53 AM
the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 22, 2015, 08:58:15 AM
the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

Until it is known what happened you cannot say his conclusions were incorrect.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
The dogs are very valuable and not make huge wrong assumptions like human investigators do. In a recent case a dog indicated to an attic but was ignored first time by investigators. The dog was right BTW.
You identify the hill right and that night a group of early searchers including nannies went up there and spoke with him (nothing to do with the case).

With respect, pegasus, I think if SY went to the bother of going to the mound to search, it indicates that it had something to do with the case.

That we do not know what that is or what their purpose was, is neither here nor there.

The fact that Mr Amaral was dismissive of their efforts seems to me to be a tad unprofessional ... so nothing new there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 12:01:45 PM



I find it intriguing that in his book, Mr Amaral enumerates Eddie's successes in validation of his non success in Praia da Luz with examples of his involvement in cases ... every single one of which ... resulted in the subsequent discovery of human remains.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2015, 12:33:14 PM

Off Topic Deletions will commence very shortly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 04:12:20 PM


I find it intriguing that in his book, Mr Amaral enumerates Eddie's successes in validation of his non success in Praia da Luz with examples of his involvement in cases ... every single one of which ... resulted in the subsequent discovery of human remains.
If an EVRD alerts at a small area where no physical evidence is subsequently found, this means the source was moved from that small area to somewhere else. For example in recent UK case an EVRD alerted to small area on carpet of a room. No physical evidence of a source was found at that small area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 04:34:44 PM
If an EVRD alerts at a small area where no physical evidence is subsequently found, this means the source was moved from that small area to somewhere else. For example in recent UK case an EVRD alerted to small area on carpet of a room. No physical evidence of a source was found at that small area.


No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:02:48 PM

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Yes the EVRD alerts at where the scent is strongest. A removed source might have been in a different part of a room to where the EVRD alerts. On slopes the alert can be where water flow brings the underground scent out the hillside. On lakes and rivers the EVRD alerts where the scent from a source many metres below emerges at the water surface. The international search professional from NPIA who took Eddie to PDL is an expert on these things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:16:05 PM

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 22, 2015, 05:28:40 PM
Until it is known what happened you cannot say his conclusions were incorrect.


the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 06:14:35 PM
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?


If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 06:22:43 PM

the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people
The alerts are "intelligence" as MG describes them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 06:37:37 PM

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 22, 2015, 06:40:59 PM

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.

There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 07:40:30 PM
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?

Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 07:59:08 PM
Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.

That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 08:02:54 PM
Witness JW testifies the chat was completly normal. Theories of some early disaster are made by forums not by VDM. Back to dogs, had the dog ever been tested on scent pads of PMIs of only tens of minutes?
(In experiment with 5 trained dogs, none of them alerted the 1 hr 10 mins sample)
The "chat" being "normal" doesnt prove anything, does it?
Just saying. And your question is redundant as it rests on the assumption of a live child at the time of the "chat"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:04:13 PM
There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.

The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.  But I am sure they worked to pre planned areas in much the fashion you have described.

I am certain the 2014 dogs would have alerted to human remains whether in whole or in part had there been any to be found ... I think there is a fair chance they would have alerted to contaminated clothing or materials.

I follow exactly what you are saying regarding the way in which the dogs were promoted ... but an unbiased observation might have led a more inquisitive investigator to question the hard sell just as  Inspector Joao Carlos did.

Perhaps (I don't know) the covers lifted were chosen because they allowed camera access to more of the drainage network?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:10:27 PM
That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.

Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 08:21:43 PM
Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:46:18 PM
LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£


The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 09:06:36 PM

The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.

Who in the PJ would have contacted the FBI for their specialist Scent Transfer Unit 101 equipment prior to the dogs arriving?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Who in the PJ would have contacted the FBI for their specialist Scent Transfer Unit 101 equipment prior to the dogs arriving?

Almost certainly no one, because the STU100 is a device for trapping the scents of living people and storing them so that repeat offenders can be identified by scent (one of the scents emitted by living people is unique).

http://www.crimesciences.com/StoreBox/otherevidencecollectkits/stu-100.htm

... and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 22, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.  But I am sure they worked to pre planned areas in much the fashion you have described.

I am certain the 2014 dogs would have alerted to human remains whether in whole or in part had there been any to be found ... I think there is a fair chance they would have alerted to contaminated clothing or materials.

I follow exactly what you are saying regarding the way in which the dogs were promoted ... but an unbiased observation might have led a more inquisitive investigator to question the hard sell just as  Inspector Joao Carlos did.

Perhaps (I don't know) the covers lifted were chosen because they allowed camera access to more of the drainage network?

The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:20:32 PM
The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.

If you really feel the need for constant criticism ... at least make the attempt to make it constructive    8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 22, 2015, 09:31:07 PM
If you really feel the need for constant criticism ... at least make the attempt to make it constructive    8)--))

You said the terrain was unsuitable for working to a grid.
Back that up explaining how and why and what equipment you have assumed would be necessary and why it would not be possible to use it at the particular location. That'll do for starters.
If you don't understand stakes and string lines and can't answer my question then you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
Almost certainly no one, because the STU100 is a device for trapping the scents of living people and storing them so that repeat offenders can be identified by scent (one of the scents emitted by living people is unique).

http://www.crimesciences.com/StoreBox/otherevidencecollectkits/stu-100.htm

... and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.

Thank you for that. One wonders why Amaral made reference to the equipment being requested if that is its purpose.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 10:20:54 PM
Thank you for that. One wonders why Amaral made reference to the equipment being requested if that is its purpose.

In his profile, Grime makes reference to the STU100, which he claims to have adapted for training purposes.

I'll see if I can dig out the reference:

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads

taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two-part design. The main body is a battery operated

elect.rica1 device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the ST100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through
ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically

stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is

apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a

given area where the S 100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest

contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises

are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert

deployment. At a11 other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.


Martin Grime.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 11:16:42 PM
In his profile, Grime makes reference to the STU100, which he claims to have adapted for training purposes.

I'll see if I can dig out the reference:

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads

taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two-part design. The main body is a battery operated

elect.rica1 device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the ST100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through
ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically

stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is

apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a

given area where the S 100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest

contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises

are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert

deployment. At a11 other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.


Martin Grime.

Does that imply that the PJ weren't bothered if the dogs contaminated the areas/objects which were to be examined? Otherwise, they surely would have waited for the equipment to arrive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 11:21:00 PM
Does that imply that the PJ weren't bothered if the dogs contaminated the areas/objects which were to be examined? Otherwise, they surely would have waited for the equipment to arrive.

Only a personal opinion, but I think it more likely that Amaral just invented what he said in his book (based on what he read from Grime's profile) because it sounded good.

We know the PJ cribbed from translated literature Mark Harrison gave them in their write-up of the inspection in the gym, and I think you have roughly the same phenomenon with Amaral's reference in his book to the STU100
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 23, 2015, 08:17:46 AM
Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.

Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 09:01:55 AM
Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.  Read the conversation from which my post you have quoted arises, then get back to me.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 10:14:33 AM
Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.
The Welsh dogs were deployed in Luz seven years on from Madeleine's disappearance, hence the reference to 7 years.

As to Amaral and the dogs, it has taken me months to get beyond what looks like marketing to a more accurate picture of the original dog teams capability.  And I did not have British political pressure or media hype to influence me.

As to the 2014 dig on the mound, think of the mound as a dart board and have someone who is not good at darts throw half a dozen darts at the target.  The areas searched were not contiguous and they did not search (in any detail) the whole of the mound.  They skipped from site to site much like butterflies flitting about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 23, 2015, 12:18:55 PM
The Welsh dogs were deployed in Luz seven years on from Madeleine's disappearance, hence the reference to 7 years.

As to Amaral and the dogs, it has taken me months to get beyond what looks like marketing to a more accurate picture of the original dog teams capability.  And I did not have British political pressure or media hype to influence me.

As to the 2014 dig on the mound, think of the mound as a dart board and have someone who is not good at darts throw half a dozen darts at the target.  The areas searched were not contiguous and they did not search (in any detail) the whole of the mound.  They skipped from site to site much like butterflies flitting about.

That would beg the question: why?
I can only think of two reasons. Prejudgment/intelligence of likely places to search or it was a PR exercise.
I don't really subscribe to the last idea.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 12:41:30 PM
That would beg the question: why?
I can only think of two reasons. Prejudgment/intelligence of likely places to search or it was a PR exercise.
I don't really subscribe to the last idea.

Aerial surveys were carried out and areas of interest would be noted.  We have been made aware of the difficult terrain in PDL which would mean that any ground disturbance would be for a reason and not just kids playing in a hole.

I was particularly intrigued by the reaction of some when the corrugated iron covered hole was investigated, who stated words to the effect that everyone knew of its existence ... the question being ... was the covering removed and the hole searched in 2007?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 23, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Aerial surveys were carried out and areas of interest would be noted.  We have been made aware of the difficult terrain in PDL which would mean that any ground disturbance would be for a reason and not just kids playing in a hole.

I was particularly intrigued by the reaction of some when the corrugated iron covered hole was investigated, who stated words to the effect that everyone knew of its existence ... the question being ... was the covering removed and the hole searched in 2007?

Were I doing the job I would not re-trace steps taken by the original investigation if I were satisfied of their completeness simply because of the cost of duplication of effort to no better end.
Areas of which there were no record for any reason what ever I would cover. Not being party to any of it means we are surmising but it seems not unreasonable to conclude:
The areas were searched and records were not kept/lost/misfiled/incomplete.
The areas were not searched.
It was a PR exercise.
fait vos jeux.
I still don't like the PR option so "mon jeux" is on one of the others.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 23, 2015, 04:32:35 PM
"August 2007. OPERATION TASK CANINE SEARCH REPORT... (snip)... The following searches were conducted: (snip) ... Western beach Praia da Luz ... (snip)"
No video or photos of this dog search have been released.
Does "western beach" mean the little beach on the west side of the fort?
This is the closest beach to the sighting which Mr Amaral thinks is important.
Shining do you know anything about the history of the big rectangular drain here?
It looks much older than the modern round drains.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Were I doing the job I would not re-trace steps taken by the original investigation if I were satisfied of their completeness simply because of the cost of duplication of effort to no better end.
Areas of which there were no record for any reason what ever I would cover. Not being party to any of it means we are surmising but it seems not unreasonable to conclude:
The areas were searched and records were not kept/lost/misfiled/incomplete.
The areas were not searched.
It was a PR exercise.
fait vos jeux.
I still don't like the PR option so "mon jeux" is on one of the others.

Like you, I would dismiss the PR option out of hand, particularly as much of the publicity generated was negative in the extreme and they knew that before starting.
I don't dismiss that it may have been designed to deflect attention from what they were really doing while mopping up a few loose ends.

I think all the going over old ground was carried out right at the beginning of the scoping exercise and it was a necessary diligence.

Whatever they were doing on the mound or the other places they checked out, and whoever they were interested in for whatever reason arises from information available in 2007 which has developed perhaps via new sources or things overlooked back then.

What the locus of the Welsh dogs was, I have no idea, but I am sure SY and the PJ know the exact significance and maybe someday we will find out ... hopefully when the case is solved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 05:05:03 PM
"August 2007. OPERATION TASK CANINE SEARCH REPORT... (snip)... The following searches were conducted: (snip) ... Western beach Praia da Luz ... (snip)"
No video or photos of this dog search have been released.
Does "western beach" mean the little beach on the west side of the fort?
This is the closest beach to the sighting which Mr Amaral thinks is important.
Shining do you know anything about the history of the big rectangular drain here?
It looks much older than the modern round drains.
First of all, on searches, despite being familiar with both the terrain in Luz and fairly familiar with the searches in and around Luz, I have come to the conclusion that I have little idea about what was searched of how it was searched, at more or less every point in time (SY search excluded).

The Mark Warner search was supposedly 'structured', though the mechanics are flimsy and if you can tell me exactly which areas were searched that night, I would be grateful for your enlightenment, as I think this is important.

If it was a 'missing child' procedure, I doubt it was designed to remove tin covers to see if anyone was underneath.  That would have been a 'dead child concealed' search.

Whether the little beach near Smithman was searched that night or in Aug 2007, I know not.  From the Fortaleza/Bull heading west, there is the little beach, then possibly miles of rocky shore before the cliffs kick in.

As to the drain on the little beach.  To be perfectly truthful, I have no certainty of its history.

The Ocean Club is 'modern' (from the era of tourist holidays by air), whilst Luz had/has a lot of older buildings that clearly predate this.  Many of these are around the locality of the Smithman sighting.  A number of houses on Rua Calheta are 'new', but many are 'cottages' that predate the Ocean Club.  Ditto Rua Direita and Rua 25 de Abril have fair numbers of buildings going back to when Luz was just a fishing village.

So, we have water from Rua Direita, Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Calheta, the old village, that needs to be dumped somewhere.

I suspect that all the rainwater drains that empty into the sea pre-date the Ocean Club.

The one on the little beach happens to be at one of the lowest road levels in Luz.  It is the one with the shortest distance from the roads to the sea.  I'd guess it is either equal oldest or actually wins the oldie prize.

But that is an interpretation of the data, rather than a knowledge of historical fact.

Note to Mods.  Yes - off topic.  But please don't delete.  Snip and start a new thread if you think we are too far off.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 23, 2015, 05:09:48 PM
I can't do that.  Snip and start a new thread.

So please let's not have any quotes or answers on this last post, as I shall have to consider removing them.

Thank You.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
I can't do that.  Snip and start a new thread.

So please let's not have any quotes or answers on this last post, as I shall have to consider removing them.

Thank You.
I'm still a newbie and trying to find my way around this rabbit warren.

Is there a more appropriate thread in existence? Please point me at it and I will happily snip to there.  Or set up a new thread if an appropriate one does not exist.

My thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 23, 2015, 05:51:32 PM
I'm still a newbie and trying to find my way around this rabbit warren.

Is there a more appropriate thread in existence? Please point me at it and I will happily snip to there.  Or set up a new thread if an appropriate one does not exist.

My thanks in advance.

It looks like a new Thread to me.  You start it, and all things being equal, I will approve it shortly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2015, 09:54:00 PM
The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.

By chance I came across a photograph which illustrates the way in which areas to be searched were sub divided ...


Police investigate second area of scrubland in Madeleine McCann search
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-06-11/police-investigate-second-area-of-scrubland-in-madeleine-mccann-search/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
By chance I came across a photograph which illustrates the way in which areas to be searched were sub divided ...


Police investigate second area of scrubland in Madeleine McCann search
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-06-11/police-investigate-second-area-of-scrubland-in-madeleine-mccann-search/

You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2015, 10:37:57 PM
You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.

It was obvious there would be some method in use to mark out the areas to be searched and ticked off ... whether that was in the form of a physical grid and/or theodolite ... it seems that our argument was along the lines of how many angels ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
It was obvious there would be some method in use to mark out the areas to be searched and ticked off ... whether that was in the form of a physical grid and/or theodolite ... it seems that our argument was along the lines of how many angels ...

A heavenly host of them.

But not on this thread ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 11:29:08 AM
A heavenly host of them.

But not on this thread ....

  Absolutely right ...  8((()*/  ... I think we may have started off talking about Amaral and the dogs ... or the Welsh dogs, at least ... but got distracted into our private little spat ... so what's new?

The thought arises though, and it is possible the correct thread to raise it on ... did anyone check out the plumbing in the apartment after Eddie's alert in the wardrobe?
Bearing in mind that the fitted wardrobe shared a wall with the toilet.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 11:55:47 AM
  Absolutely right ...  8((()*/  ... I think we may have started off talking about Amaral and the dogs ... or the Welsh dogs, at least ... but got distracted into our private little spat ... so what's new?

The thought arises though, and it is possible the correct thread to raise it on ... did anyone check out the plumbing in the apartment after Eddie's alert in the wardrobe?
Bearing in mind that the fitted wardrobe shared a wall with the toilet.

Interesting point, Brietta.

I hope this is sufficiently on topic as it is related to Amaral and the dogs...

Did Amaral ever ask for the architect's plans of Block 5 to check for entrances to a crawl space? I am reliably told that there would almost certainly be a large area under 5A to a) level off the ground and b) provide access in the event of major works.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 12:21:49 PM
Interesting point, Brietta.

I hope this is sufficiently on topic as it is related to Amaral and the dogs...

Did Amaral ever ask for the architect's plans of Block 5 to check for entrances to a crawl space? I am reliably told that there would almost certainly be a large area under 5A to a) level off the ground and b) provide access in the event of major works.

Putrecine and cadaverine, both components of decomposition, are found in urine and faeces ... hardly surprising since both are waste products from the body.
Plumbing smells indiscernible to the human nose could be indicated by a cadaver dog 'on the job' ... pity no-one checked that situation out.   

I don't think there is a record of any inspections carried out in the founds of the building ... or if the lift mechanism was checked out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 12:41:18 PM
The wonder is that the dogs can ever be dragged away from all the smells indiscernible to the human nose around lavatories, bathrooms and nappy changing areas all over the place.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
If these dogs alerted to toilets/sewerage they would never be able to be used in houses.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:25:15 PM
The wonder is that the dogs can ever be dragged away from all the smells indiscernible to the human nose around lavatories, bathrooms and nappy changing areas all over the place.

You never said a truer word ... and is very likely why Judges and Juries prefer alerts to be accompanied by corroborative forensic or other evidence.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:31:15 PM
If these dogs alerted to toilets/sewerage they would never be able to be used in houses.

Why?  The alert to whatever would have to be eliminated or corroborated whatever the source.  It was considered appropriate to use Keela to eliminate the presence of blood when Eddie alerted ... why only blood? ... why not a possible other source?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 01:34:21 PM
Why?  The alert to whatever would have to be eliminated or corroborated whatever the source.  It was considered appropriate to use Keela to eliminate the presence of blood when Eddie alerted ... why only blood? ... why not a possible other source?

Find a case where dogs alerted to toilets. As each house has at least one it shouldn't be too difficult.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
You never said a truer word ... and is very likely why Judges and Juries prefer alerts to be accompanied by corroborative forensic or other evidence.

I know..............so attempts to hide the possibility that the dog alerted to the cadaver scent from the corpse of the missing person;....  amongst sea-bass, soiled nappies, pork products,  sundry bodily substances whether lavatorial, decayed, historical or living are a waste of effort, really.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
I know..............so attempts to hide the possibility that the dog alerted to the cadaver scent from the corpse of the missing person;....  amongst sea-bass, soiled nappies, pork products,  sundry bodily substances whether lavatorial, decayed, historical or living are a waste of effort, really.

In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 01:54:37 PM
Putrecine and cadaverine, both components of decomposition, are found in urine and faeces ... hardly surprising since both are waste products from the body.
Plumbing smells indiscernible to the human nose could be indicated by a cadaver dog 'on the job' ... pity no-one checked that situation out.   

I don't think there is a record of any inspections carried out in the founds of the building ... or if the lift mechanism was checked out.

I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to simply toilet smells - otherwise he would presumably have reacted in the bathroom itself.

However, it's not impossible that the smell of something within his "training parameters" could be within such a void, if there is one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 01:56:50 PM
Alert through a wall to next door?...........

Or anywhere possibly contaminated by 2 toddlers nappies, in that case................but not in the McCann bathroom or lavatory?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 27, 2015, 01:58:14 PM
In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.
Have we forgotten that the grandparents of Tasmin Silence lived in 5A

Tasmin being the very observant little girl who was so helpful describing watchers at 5A

It is said that her grandpa died in hospital.



Wonder what happened to his clothes / slippers etc. 

Were they brought back from the undertakers / hospital to 5A?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.

I think you have discussed this previously with Pathfinder. the dogs don't alert to toilets.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 02:13:29 PM
Have we forgotten that the grandparents of Tasmin Silence lived in 5A

Tasmin being the very observant little girl who was so helpful describing watchers at 5A

It is said that her grandpa died in hospital.



Wonder what happened to his clothes / slippers etc. 

Were they brought back from the undertakers / hospital to 5A?

Aside from that, Sadie, the apartment went from being a residential one to a rented one. At the time of the disappearance, it was owned and rented out as a holiday let by an unrelated McCann. Some people buy all new furniture whereas others may try to find good deals in second-hand shops...

And without investigating and excluding all plausible explanations - which would be expensive to do in terms of resources - Eddie's alerts (bless him) mean little in the absence of physical evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to simply toilet smells - otherwise he would presumably have reacted in the bathroom itself.

However, it's not impossible that the smell of something within his "training parameters" could be within such a void, if there is one.

In one of the other inspections he was interested enough in a corner of the room that the sideboard was moved to allow him access, although he was given no time to inspect.

One wonders if the bathroom was behind the adjoining wall.  It is he fact that cadaverine and putrecine are by products of human waste that brings the question to mind ... any residual smell through contamination has to be a consideration because I cannot see how the animal could be desensitised from reacting to those.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 02:53:50 PM
In one of the other inspections he was interested enough in a corner of the room that the sideboard was moved to allow him access, although he was given no time to inspect.

One wonders if the bathroom was behind the adjoining wall.  It is he fact that cadaverine and putrecine are by products of human waste that brings the question to mind ... any residual smell through contamination has to be a consideration because I cannot see how the animal could be desensitised from reacting to those.

With that stance.........what do you feel stops the animal reacting all over the place?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 03:26:02 PM
With that stance.........what do you feel stops the animal reacting all over the place?

Do you suppose the dogs don't know when they are working and when they are not?  For example did Eddie obey a command to stop woofing or did he keep on woofing despite being stood down?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 07:26:39 PM
Do you suppose the dogs don't know when they are working and when they are not?  For example did Eddie obey a command to stop woofing or did he keep on woofing despite being stood down?

O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

Some kind of hardwired toggled interlock?  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2015, 08:57:56 PM
You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.
No area in Luz was worked on a grid method in 2014.

General areas of interest (3) had cordon tape set around the outside to keep the media and public off.

When an area of particular interest (within the general area) was identified they then stuck in iron or steel stanchions on each corner, set up a small rectangle of tape, and worked within that.

The area to the east of Luz that was searched was quite large.  First, the entire perimeter was taped off.  Then, a quite small area within that had (presumably) metals rods banged in and the rectangle of interest taped off.  Then they searched that rectangle.

Then they concluded there was nothing of interest.

There does not seem to have been a comprehensive, meticulous or methodical search of areas to the east of Luz.

Just whack in a small search area, check that scrupulously, then move on.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 09:12:37 PM
Some kind of hardwired toggled interlock?  8(0(*

Not up to the computer speak.........but it could be Infinite Baffle on the Woofer.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 09:12:57 PM
No area in Luz was worked on a grid method in 2014.

General areas of interest (3) had cordon tape set around the outside to keep the media and public off.

When an area of particular interest (within the general area) was identified they then stuck in iron or steel stanchions on each corner, set up a small rectangle of tape, and worked within that.

The area to the east of Luz that was searched was quite large.  First, the entire perimeter was taped off.  Then, a quite small area within that had (presumably) metals rods banged in and the rectangle of interest taped off.  Then they searched that rectangle.

Then they concluded there was nothing of interest.

There does not seem to have been a comprehensive, meticulous or methodical search of areas to the east of Luz.

Just whack in a small search area, check that scrupulously, then move on.

Blimey; as the cops appear to have had a theodolite I would have hoped the minimum they did was set out from an immovable temporary trig point to fix the coordinates of the "corners" of each search area so at least they knew where they were, in the sense that it would be repeatable so they could mark it out again if necessary.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 09:17:54 PM
Not up to the computer speak.........but it could be Infinite Baffle on the Woofer.

It's not computer speak! It is basic controls. Gosh how offended am I that you should think I am some kind of computer geek?.....eeek!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
It's not computer speak! It is basic controls. Gosh how offended am I that you should think I am some kind of computer geek?.....eeek!

I must be below basic then, O Geek..........( "interlock" to me means Winter Vests, as recommended by my Gran. )

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

It is all in the training and perhaps in the dog.

For example ... dogs are trained not to disturb or contaminate evidence to which their noses have led them.  We have seen playful Eddie tossing cuddle cat around much to the bemusement of Inspector Joao Carlos.  We have seen him throwing clothing around during his inspection in the gymnasium.
Very definitely not a trained response.

We know that Eddie reacted to some extraordinary materials in Jersey ... so unless the a possible source for his behaviour in the McCann apartment has been checked and eliminated ... the possibility must remain, particularly as urine and faeces are detritus from a human body just as the semen which contaminated the tissue Eddie alerted to is.


**snip
6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 12:08:33 PM
It is all in the training and perhaps in the dog.

For example ... dogs are trained not to disturb or contaminate evidence to which their noses have led them.  We have seen playful Eddie tossing cuddle cat around much to the bemusement of Inspector Joao Carlos.  We have seen him throwing clothing around during his inspection in the gymnasium.
Very definitely not a trained response.

We know that Eddie reacted to some extraordinary materials in Jersey ... so unless the a possible source for his behaviour in the McCann apartment has been checked and eliminated ... the possibility must remain, particularly as urine and faeces are detritus from a human body just as the semen which contaminated the tissue Eddie alerted to is.


**snip
6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

Mark Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (TOTL)

The dog alerts will be proved if this case is solved. They couldn't control them or Amaral so they're the enemy.

1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example''
 Reply "I can't, no.' (DP)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 28, 2015, 12:16:14 PM
The dog's alerted only to areas that the PJ had been. All it would have taken is for one of the PJ to have been in contact with a cadaver. Alternatively amaral could have contaminated the scene deliberately in order to try and get a confession
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on May 28, 2015, 12:54:56 PM
That is a worrying concern imo. Portugal, although I have never been though may visit this year, but not to Prai da luz, but to sample some of their green wine is according to a good friend the type of place where you can offer a bribe. I'm sure we've all been to countries like that before. Maybe my friend is mistaken, but Amaral given his previous convictions is not adverse to applying some Sweeney style tactics. I wouldn't trust this man given the info we know so far. Maybe SY do not either... All the stuff regarding alerting to the loos or airtight cars is a far less credible proposition imo.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 01:27:11 PM
That is a worrying concern imo. Portugal, although I have never been though may visit this year, but not to Prai da luz, but to sample some of their green wine is according to a good friend the type of place where you can offer a bribe. I'm sure we've all been to countries like that before. Maybe my friend is mistaken, but Amaral given his previous convictions is not adverse to applying some Sweeney style tactics. I wouldn't trust this man given the info we know so far. Maybe SY do not either... All the stuff regarding alerting to the loos or airtight cars is a far less credible proposition imo.


I think Mr Amaral was misled by the hard sell given to him re the skills of the dogs and I think it possible he genuinely believed the alerts.
There can be no argument that he 'jumped the gun' regarding the FSS results.

There was no further investigation carried out into what might have triggered the dogs' response even for elimination purposes. 
I have seen it mentioned in more than one publication, that a contra indication to the efficiency of a VRD is a panting dog ... now think back to the soundtrack of videos of Eddie racing around in PDL.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 02:11:29 PM
Mark Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (TOTL)

The dog alerts will be proved if this case is solved. They couldn't control them or Amaral so they're the enemy.

1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example''
 Reply "I can't, no.' (DP)


 @)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 03:34:39 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

It won't only be the PJ who think the dogs were correct. Their statements from 5:30 onwards are a shambles. We decided not to take them out before Gerry left for tennis then Gerry is sending David to help Kate bring the kids out 30 minutes later. There are too many contradictions from 5:30 onwards. This is the last time three witnesses saw Maddy and they can't agree on anything. Dave was inside no he wasn't.

It was around 7:15PM when they put the children to bed and checked they were sleeping, she says she is sure of this.  Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn't know who; however Gerry says it was him. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were.
At 20H35, they left the apartment in the direction of the TAPAS. Before they left and because the children's bedroom door was ajar as always, he opened it a little more, listening from the outside and, as there was complete silence he did not enter, returning the door to its previous position, with a space of about 10cm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Too strange to be believed. They can't look in past that pesky ajar door to check on their children. The door was always ajar I tell you until Tannerman moved it.

But wait Gerry said they did check on the children before leaving re 4 May statement.

After 20.30, the witness and his wife, after looking at the children, went to the Tapas Bar, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

Absolutely ... a total mess ... how fortunate it is that SY are using professionally translated files which are sequential.

I'm not absolutely sure you can tar the PJ as a whole with the stick of making such a pig's ear of the dogs inspections, Inspector João Carlos questioned the visual reports which the coordinator accepted hook line and sinker ... so blame where blame is due
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 06:32:18 PM
Absolutely ... a total mess ... how fortunate it is that SY are using professionally translated files which are sequential.

I'm not absolutely sure you can tar the PJ as a whole with the stick of making such a pig's ear of the dogs inspections, Inspector João Carlos questioned the visual reports which the coordinator accepted hook line and sinker ... so blame where blame is due

Are you suggesting that the anomalies are due to translation errors? Wow, big errors! Kate was wrapped in a towel when David arrived - oh no she wasn't.  @)(++(*

Time will tell perhaps about the veracity or otherwise of the dog alerts. Keela wasn't wrong once, and people can assume that Eddie was wrong, but he could have been right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 28, 2015, 06:39:19 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

these were the statements given in English and translated....the ones where kate complained about mistranslations.....

It's not unusual to have a  shower followed by a bath...some of us don't like to relax in a bath of dirty water particularly if we have been covered in suncream
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 07:12:05 PM
these were the statements given in English and translated....the ones where kate complained about mistranslations.....

It's not unusual to have a  shower followed by a bath...some of us don't like to relax in a bath of dirty water particularly if we have been covered in suncream

CC likes a good scrub aswell. Kate had just finished a long run so if she wanted a shower she would have it as soon as she went through the door and before Gerry left for tennis. The statements reveal what the normal time was for the kids bath but this has now changed to Kate's shower time 1830.  And David couldn't remember her only wearing a towel. Oh yes I believe every word they say  8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on May 28, 2015, 07:44:00 PM
CC likes a good scrub aswell. Kate had just finished a long run so if she wanted a shower she would have it as soon as she went through the door and before Gerry left for tennis. The statements reveal what the normal time was for the kids bath but this has now changed to Kate's shower time 1830.  And David couldn't remember her only wearing a towel. Oh yes I believe every word they say  8)--))

Amaral makes a big thing about the inconsistencies...when Kate said the bottle was half empty and Gerry said it was half full...amaral knew one of them had to be lying. If he could work out which one he could crack the case
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 07:47:06 PM
Are you suggesting that the anomalies are due to translation errors? Wow, big errors! Kate was wrapped in a towel when David arrived - oh no she wasn't.  @)(++(*

Time will tell perhaps about the veracity or otherwise of the dog alerts. Keela wasn't wrong once, and people can assume that Eddie was wrong, but he could have been right.

 ... and shock! horror! wrapped in a towel or not wrapped in a towel ... all that is so so important to what? ... you must have an explanation for why you find such nonsense so earth shattering in relation to the main event of the evening, which was a little girl going missing from her bed.   

It is just understandable why Mr Amaral got it so wrong as far as the dogs were concerned ... he knew nothing about dogs and must have been as desperate to believe the hype about them as he was to pin Madeleine's disappearance on her mother.
Although the rush to make Dr McCann an arguida days before he would have had to present evidence to allow such a move makes one wonder if he really did believe or if he was going for "confession".

The dogs did their job ... they found neither human remains nor did they find evidence which pointed to parental or any other involvement ... end of.

As we have now been made aware by the Portuguese and British investigations ... many avenues of investigation were overlooked in 2007 and are still being followed in 20015 to find out what may have happened to Madeleine ... so it seems rather odd that you and others pin so many hopes on a failed working dog expedition in 2007 to the extent that Eddie and Keela have achieved cult status.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 07:58:06 PM
When police are investigating the disappearance of a child it's counter-productive to keep changing your statements because it makes them suspect you're being less than truthful.

We don't know if the dogs got it wrong because we don't know what happened.

We don't know what the current investigators are thinking because they haven't told us.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 28, 2015, 08:02:26 PM
When police are investigating the disappearance of a child it's counter-productive to keep changing your statements because it makes them suspect you're being less than truthful.

We don't know if the dogs got it wrong because we don't know what happened.

We don't know what the current investigators are thinking because they haven't told us.
Can you give an example of someone who "kept changing their statement" with regard to the events of that evening?  That is, more than 2 significant changes please.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 09:20:54 PM
Can you give an example of someone who "kept changing their statement" with regard to the events of that evening?  That is, more than 2 significant changes please.

1. Key door

2. DP visit

Regarding the episode where he spoke to David on the 3rd of May, he says that he was playing tennis at 18:30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him if he was going to continue playing. G. said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers. He thinks that David offered to check if Kate needed help, which he did, and returned minutes later. Regarding his previous statement where he states that David returned half an hour later around 19:00, he says that he returned to the tennis court after half an hour, as this time frame refers to the second time he returned to the tennis court after getting ready for the game.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

They can't agree on anything in regards to that time period - that much is obvious!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Amaral and the dogs, wrapped in David Payne's towel ....

Most extraordinary ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 02:23:48 PM
1. Key door

2. DP visit

Regarding the episode where he spoke to David on the 3rd of May, he says that he was playing tennis at 18:30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him if he was going to continue playing. G. said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers. He thinks that David offered to check if Kate needed help, which he did, and returned minutes later. Regarding his previous statement where he states that David returned half an hour later around 19:00, he says that he returned to the tennis court after half an hour, as this time frame refers to the second time he returned to the tennis court after getting ready for the game.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

They can't agree on anything in regards to that time period - that much is obvious!
An example of one specific individual who kept changing his or her story please - two or more significant changes please....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 03:29:09 PM
An example of one specific individual who kept changing his or her story please - two or more significant changes please....

Gerry see above. Key and DP visit - how long he was away. Kate saying Maddy dropped it and moved on and it never crossed her mind again and she's talking about it at the table. Kate first statement - took a bath after kids put to bed at 7:30. Arguido it had changed to 6:30. You don't take 2 in an hour. Kate only did one brief statement on 4 May. Gerry telling Fiona Kate was bathing the kids at around 6:30 and getting them ready for bed. Gerry said they had bathed them before he left at 6. Maddy was really tired but then says it was the best day of her life. Maddy said two things that day or in the whole of that holiday in the book - why didn't you come when we cried (you got the day wrong plummy) and it was the best day ever  &%+((£

A liar should never change their story so why would somebody keep changing it? Once is more than enough. You find contradictions and work from there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 03:56:12 PM
Gerry see above. Key and DP visit - how long he was away. Kate saying Maddy dropped it and moved on and it never crossed her mind again and she's talking about it at the table. Kate first statement - took a bath after kids put to bed at 7:30. Arguido it had changed to 6:30. You don't take 2 in an hour. Kate only did one brief statement on 4 May. Gerry telling Fiona Kate was bathing the kids at around 6:30 and getting them ready for bed. Gerry said they had bathed them before he left at 6. Maddy was really tired but then says it was the best day of her life. Maddy said two things that day or in the whole of that holiday in the book - why didn't you come when we cried (you got the day wrong plummy) and it was the best day ever  &%+((£

A liar should never change their story so why would somebody keep changing it? Once is more than enough. You find contradictions and work from there.
COuld you try and be a bit more clear in what you are saying.  Let's take the example of Gerry and DP's visit.  We need two or more clear alterations of a story to qualify as "keep changing statements" - so - let's see three or more separate accounts of showing the changes...
1st statement he said -
2nd statement he said
3rd statement he said
etc.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 04:16:33 PM
COuld you try and be a bit more clear in what you are saying.  Let's take the example of Gerry and DP's visit.  We need two or more clear alterations of a story to qualify as "keep changing statements" - so - let's see three or more separate accounts of showing the changes...
1st statement he said -
2nd statement he said
3rd statement he said
etc.

Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2015, 04:31:02 PM
Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.

You are wrong again Pfinder.

Gerry made three statements:

1)   04.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

2)  10.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

and,

3)  07.09.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

I am not aware of any others but there are certainly three.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 05:44:11 PM
Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.
Pathfinder.  If you change or correct an element of your statement once that does not constitute "keep on changing your statement" - not in my universe anyway.  It constitutes one change.  If another witness contradicts your statement that also does not constitute "keep on changing your statement" either.  Jeez.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 05:50:39 PM
You are wrong again Pfinder.

Gerry made three statements:

1)   04.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

2)  10.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

and,

3)  07.09.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

I am not aware of any others but there are certainly three.

Yes one as suspects which is different and many months later to the other two.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 08:52:33 PM
Three statements Pfinder.

Alfie was right and you were wrong.

Why dont you admit it


A gentle apology would be nice altho I doubt that Alfie requires one.  He is pretty easy going on that score.

I've quoted all 3 in my posts. I'm interested in the initial statements not months later when you can get your stories straight. It's interesting how the later ones contradict the early ones tho. If you tell the truth you dont have to remember anything  8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2015, 09:01:27 PM
I've quoted all 3 in my posts. I'm interested in the initial statements not months later when you can get your stories straight. It's interesting how the later ones contradict the early ones tho. If you tell the truth you dont have to remember anything  8)--))

Quite right.

I can recommend it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 04:24:53 PM
If Amaral and co. had been genuinely in the dogs, he might have raised a few questions.

Luckily, the DCCB chap eventually did.

Dogs are such clever people...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vs4hpG50Cc
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 04:27:28 PM
Video blocked in England ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2015, 03:08:27 PM
Friday 03 July 2015

Human Remains Found Inside Apartment Wall

Family members say they fear the body is that of Raven Joy Campbell, 31, who disappeared in Lomita, California, in 2009.

Human remains have been found inside the walls of an apartment building in California after a tip off to police.

Coroner's office officials went to the property in Lomita and cadaver dogs gave a "positive alert" for a body.

http://news.sky.com/story/1512836/human-remains-found-inside-apartment-wall
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 04:12:48 PM
Friday 03 July 2015

Human Remains Found Inside Apartment Wall

Family members say they fear the body is that of Raven Joy Campbell, 31, who disappeared in Lomita, California, in 2009.

Human remains have been found inside the walls of an apartment building in California after a tip off to police.

Coroner's office officials went to the property in Lomita and cadaver dogs gave a "positive alert" for a body.

http://news.sky.com/story/1512836/human-remains-found-inside-apartment-wall

Well they would, wouldn't they, if there was a body there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2015, 05:37:51 PM
Well they would, wouldn't they, if there was a body there.

They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.


The point is there was something there for them to react to.  Dog indicates ... human finds the evidence ... self explanatory.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 05:55:37 PM
They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.


There was still a body there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 05, 2015, 05:59:27 PM
Nothing to do with the horrible smell reported by HUMANS, then.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 06:20:53 PM
There was still a body there.

And then there was that, of course.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 05, 2015, 07:11:45 PM
Competently deployed, dogs can be an invaluable aid to any criminal enquiry.

I don't think anyone (here!) has ever disputed that ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 02:40:14 AM
There was still a body there.

Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 06:29:16 AM
Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

So we are still left with only possibilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 08:38:01 AM
So we are still left with only possibilities.

This one theory fits with the evidence and needs to be proved. The unidentified man gave the time/game away as you will find out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:11:03 AM
Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

The Guardian article shows that all options remain open in Madeleine McCann's case.

To think that Madeleine's case is being looked at in isolation is naive.  As part of that investigation into the very serious offences which had occurred, Scotland Yard have seized the opportunity presented to investigate other crimes committed against Britons who were on holiday in the Algarve.

It is extraordinary that an investigation into a child who had disappeared from her bedroom did not take into consideration crimes being committed against children by an intruder to their bedrooms.
It is remarkable that there was a denial by some that such crimes had been committed at all.

Viewed against the spotlight of the many persons who remain of interest and the many persons already investigated by SY and eliminated from the inquiry ... when taken in conjunction with the separate PJ investigation ... it clearly shows that somewhere along the line, the Amaral investigation took a wrong turning.

Whether that was as a result of the flawed exercise involving the introduction of the dogs to the case and the total misinterpretation of their abilities and significance, despite the caveats of Martin Grime, remains to be seen.

I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt.

The article suggests that there may even be forensic evidence available from these assaults.  I would have thought investigation of that would have taken priority over putting all the eggs into one basket of woof = guilty parent, preferably the mother.



**snip
Detectives said there had been an increase in criminality and burglary in Praia da Luz that peaked in April 2007, shortly before Madeleine's disappearance.

Scotland Yard also revealed it was looking at 38 "people of interest" in relation to her disappearance, having dismissed 22 others from that category. They were also trying to find out more about 530 known sex offenders – 59 regarded as of high interest – across Europe.

However Portugal's Polícia Judiciária (PJ) claimed that Wednesday's press conference simply confirmed a primary line of investigation which has been investigated by Portuguese police since last October. Suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives were denied by a source at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon.

He said that evidence of a string of crimes had been the driving force behind Portuguese officials re-opening the case. "It is all there in the police case files," said the source. "You will see when it is made public."

Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have been informed of the latest developments.

Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCann family, told the BBC: "Kate and Gerry still believe that Madeleine is alive and out there to be found, and that is why they are so pleased that the British police are doing such a good job on this."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 09:33:09 AM

Quote Brietta.

"I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt."

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
Quote Brietta.

"I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt."

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder how Mr Murat`s arguido status and the investigations into his possible involvement ties in with "any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt," though?

Might there have been a prior hope that there would be alerts around his property and so forth, which,  along with turning over his garden,  could possibly have formed the initial leverage to close the case, too?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 01:35:39 PM
I wonder how Mr Murat`s arguido status and the investigations into his possible involvement ties in with "any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt," though?

Might there have been a prior hope that there would be alerts around his property and so forth, which,  along with turning over his garden,  could possibly have formed the initial leverage to close the case, too?

No doubt with some link to The McCanns. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 01:41:29 PM
I think the interest in Robert Murat sprang from uncertainty about his whereabouts on the night (never, I don't think, satisfactorily resolved, either way).

Whatever the truth of that, there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence linking Murat to Madeleine, and certainly not to Madeleine's disappearance.

I don't believe the present enquiry is considering Murat, any more than it is considering the McCanns.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
I think the interest in Robert Murat sprang from uncertainty about his whereabouts on the night (never, I don't think, satisfactorily resolved, either way).

Whatever the truth of that, there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence linking Murat to Madeleine, and certainly not to Madeleine's disappearance.

I don't believe the present enquiry is considering Murat, any more than it is considering the McCanns.

They have interviewed Murat.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 03:21:47 PM
What does the sofa have to do with Murat's whereabouts on the night?

ETA: From John Lowe's report:

A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

Weak and incomplete DNA results which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components were obtained from cellular material on the wet and dry swabs (14A & B} from the back of the sofa.


And ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 03:52:57 PM
What does the sofa have to do with Murat's whereabouts on the night?

ETA: From John Lowe's report:

A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

Weak and incomplete DNA results which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components were obtained from cellular material on the wet and dry swabs (14A & B} from the back of the sofa.


And ....

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 03:57:12 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

You don't seem to have learnt anything, do you?

Keela alerted only to human blood.

Eddie alerted to human blood and cadaver scent.

So where both dogs alert in the same spot, the provenance of the alert has to be blood.

Or Keela has alerted falsely.

Or both dogs have alerted falsely.

An alert from Keela (assuming an alert within trained parameters!) is blood!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 04:01:03 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 05:29:40 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only

The dogs are very good. You will find out how good if they solve this case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:41:43 PM
The dogs are very good. You will find out how good if they solve this case.

Eddie couldn't make up his mind whether there was, or whether there wasn't, a scent on cuddle-cat.

And despite not being able to find a trace of any scent on clothing in the villa, he (apparently) could find a scent (on exactly the same clothing!) in the gym.

Most bizarre ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:44:56 PM
No doubt with some link to The McCanns.

Mr Amaral linked him to the McCanns?
Wasn`t it the McCanns and/or friends who felt that Murat was involved in some way?
Is that the link to Murat, along with the suspicions of a journalist?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 05:46:26 PM
They have interviewed Murat.


That's one of the things that I really don't understand about Hideho and her "campaign". There never WAS any blood found, let alone who any may have belonged to.

She claims to be some kind of expert tutor on the files for her fan club, but she still doesn't appear to have grasped the basics of the forensic results.





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:49:25 PM
That's one of the things that I really don't understand about Hideho and her "campaign". There never WAS any blood found. She claims to be some kind of tutor on the files for her fan club, but she still doesn't appear to have grasped the basics of the forensic results.

The word blood is not used once in John Lowe's report ....

ETA: I tend to assume blood was found as a courtesy to Keela.

Only stuff she reacted to was sent to the FSS and she is not trained to react to anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
They have interviewed Murat.



They interviewed Murat... so what? None of the hairs analysed in 5A even corresponded to his mtDNA profile.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:54:55 PM
Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?

Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

You don't seem to have learnt anything, do you?

Keela alerted only to human blood.

Eddie alerted to human blood and cadaver scent.

So where both dogs alert in the same spot, the provenance of the alert has to be blood.

Or Keela has alerted falsely.

Or both dogs have alerted falsely.

An alert from Keela (assuming an alert within trained parameters!) is blood!


Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:59:44 PM
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!

No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 06:01:37 PM
Eddie couldn't make up his mind whether there was, or whether there wasn't, a scent on cuddle-cat.

And despite not being able to find a trace of any scent on clothing in the villa, he (apparently) could find a scent (on exactly the same clothing!) in the gym.

Most bizarre ...

What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:02:23 PM
Mr Amaral linked him to the McCanns?
Wasn`t it the McCanns and/or friends who felt that Murat was involved in some way?
Is that the link to Murat, along with the suspicions of a journalist?

No ... if you read the files you will see that the PJ themselves were very suspicious of Robert Murat's behaviour and noted instances of it which caused concern.

Three of the McCann party identified him as taking part in the search for Madeleine on the 3rd.  They were not alone in doing so.  If memory serves ~ Sylvia Baptista did in one of her statements, as did the sisters Annie Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen and I believe a barrister.
I think it is obvious that a person resembling Robert Murat must have been mistaken for him.  I believe he did translate for one of the McCann friends.

If Mr Amaral made a connection between the McCanns and Murat, as in so many other instances he was entirely wrong. IMO.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:05:37 PM

Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.

Yes, it does.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:07:14 PM
What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£

Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:10:52 PM
What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£

Actually what should be causing comment is that Cuddle Cat along with Madeleine's pink blanket were not bagged as evidence immediately the police arrived on the scene on the 3rd May.

Both items had been in immediate contact with her and could even have had a foreign trace on them.  Forensic examination of CC at the time would almost certainly have had more value than Eddie tossing him around for a plaything.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:11:59 PM
Yes, it does.

No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:12:20 PM
Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?

Great minds etc ... LOL
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:14:04 PM
No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?

Because the dog is trained to react to blood.  The reaction of the blood dog confirms blood which a cadaver dog will inevitably also react to if deployed in the same area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
Because the dog is trained to react to blood.  The reaction of the blood dog confirms blood which a cadaver dog will inevitably also react to if deployed in the same area.

You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:26:26 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

Police do not base their suspicions on guess-work.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 06:35:15 PM
Yes, it does.

Afraid not.

Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested. Too much interference and a media circus.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:35:49 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

Uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are not accepted as evidence precisely because cadaver dogs alert to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:38:46 PM
Afraid not.

Do what you want with your frayed knots.

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested.

Not taking cuddle-cat for forensic analysis was an oversight by the PJ.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
Maybe, though as I recall, it had been laundered within an inch of its life so may not have provided anything useful.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:41:48 PM
Police do not base their suspicions on guess-work.

Which can be accepted as your acknowledgement that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the same site at which blood is present.

To state categorically that alerts from both blood and VRD dogs must both only be to blood and not cadaver contaminant is misleading.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:43:23 PM
Afraid not.

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested. Too much interference and a media circus.

Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 06:44:52 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

So who do you think may have died there on the floor tiles behind the couch, Carew?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
Maybe, though as I recall, it had been laundered within an inch of its life so may not have provided anything useful.

The toy was on Madeleine's bed.

It should have been bagged and sent to forensics.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
The toy was on Madeleine's bed.

It should have been bagged and sent to forensics.

Was her bedding?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:52:08 PM
So who do you think may have died there on the floor tiles behind the couch, Carew?

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 06:53:05 PM
Was her bedding?

No.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:54:36 PM

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

No it's not the point.

If there is blood in the vicinity, a cadaver dog (should alert).  Speculation about "cadaver scent" is precisely that, speculation and guesswork unless there is corroboration.

Corroboration can come, alone, from DNA uncovered by scientists in a laboratory.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 07:01:03 PM
Was her bedding?

I was sure I had seen that the cleaners were allowed entry quite early on and the bedding taken away for washing;  I have had a look and can't find a cite for that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:02:22 PM
There is very remote chance that the minuscule amounts of blood that Keela can detect, was not what Eddie alerted too.
However IIRC there was no DNA belonging to the McCanns found on that tile area, so it would not be a case of removing a cadaver and leaving some of that body blood/fluid behind, if it was Madeleine.
I'm sure you can understand why Mr Grime took two dogs. It was to eliminate any alerts of blood be Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 07:04:06 PM
Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.

Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 07:12:50 PM
There is very remote chance that the minuscule amounts of blood that Keela can detect, was not what Eddie alerted too.
However IIRC there was no DNA belonging to the McCanns found on that tile area, so it would not be a case of removing a cadaver and leaving some of that body blood/fluid behind, if it was Madeleine.
I'm sure you can understand why Mr Grime took two dogs. It was to eliminate any alerts of blood be Eddie.

I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:14:15 PM
Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)

Yes the initial forensic team found hairs. None of the bedding appears to have gone to forensic lab, except for the counterpane on the bed next to the window which was thought to have a stain of something other than what it turned out to be....A child's saliva.
I believe luminol was used and only shows bodily fluids.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
No it's not the point.

If there is blood in the vicinity, a cadaver dog (should alert).  Speculation about "cadaver scent" is precisely that, speculation and guesswork unless there is corroboration.

Corroboration can come, alone, from DNA uncovered by scientists in a laboratory.

To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:17:46 PM
I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.

Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 07:21:33 PM
Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)

Hmmm. Yes.  Six of which never made it to the lab. What did the  PJ forensic squad do with them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 07:26:16 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:26:44 PM
Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs  8(0(*

No, no.

One handler and one dog at the same crime scene.

That was the ratio in the second enquiry.  Two dogs and two handlers.

Not one handler handling two dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:28:32 PM
I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?

I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:37:59 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 07:40:31 PM
Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share

No I haven't - I was asking who said they never went there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:44:27 PM
I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.

The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 08:00:06 PM
The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 08:00:16 PM
At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable

John Ellis other dog was border collie Frankie.

When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.” - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/#sthash.fPLUNEvu.dpuf

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

Constable John Ellis, said he realised the dog operated by his team-mate Martin Grime, a dog called "Eddie", a Springer Spaniel, had found something, because of his barking.

He added he continued searching with his dog "Frankie" a Border Collie, and that when he approached Constable Grime`s position, "there was a distinct smell of decay".

Constable Grime had told the court that as he searched the hedgerows and riverbank "Eddie" jumped into the stream and at one stage was being swept away by the current.

However, the dog managed to swim back up and jumped unto a pile of stones on the further bank and started barking.

"I immediately noted that he had found something and I made my way to the bank and saw what he had found," said Constable Grime.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 08:10:35 PM
Which bit of the fact that only one handler will handle only one dog at the same crime scene and why?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 08:36:59 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 08:48:40 PM
Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.

Agreed.

But Morse was ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15

Thank you. I shall read that later
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 08:55:57 PM
I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:00:28 PM
The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Morse also had very recent accredited independent training records in which he scored highly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:18:43 PM
Agreed.

But Morse was ...

I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 09:33:37 PM
I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.

I don't know how you desensitise a dog to a specific scent.  But you can clearly train a dog not to bark and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark at specific times and to specific scents, but at no other time or scent.

How do you train a dog not to bark at cats (for example?)

You clearly can ...

And I'm sure you can desensitise a dog to the scent of blood ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 06, 2015, 10:22:52 PM
Uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are not accepted as evidence precisely because cadaver dogs alert to blood.

Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.

Sorry, Brietta, I misunderstood your post. I didn't know that they used two teams of cadaver dogs nowadays. Makes sense, I suppose.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 07, 2015, 12:17:49 AM
Agreed.

But Morse was ...

Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee. The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2010/02/sniffer-dog-detected-body-in-orkney.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:20:23 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

I am precisely right in every last detail ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:41:01 AM
An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 07, 2015, 06:49:55 AM
An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.

This is true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 09:33:01 AM
I am precisely right in every last detail ...

No, you are not.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 09:53:31 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

I believe Scottish Law allowed cadaver dog indications to be presented in a murder trial.  There were alerts to the boot of the accused's car and an area in the workplace where the victim and the accused were known to have been.
(Ms Pilley had been caught by CCTV on her way to work and almost at the entrance although not entering ... the man convicted of her murder was at work in the building for part of that day but left to go on an apparently unscheduled work related journey.)

Suzanne Pilley's body has not been discovered till this day.  But there was sufficient evidence to convince the jury of the guilt of the accused person. (which he has appealed unsuccessfully to the High Court in England - but continues to protest his innocence and the case is under review in Scotland).

I am unsure of the part played by the dogs in the trial for the simple reason there was no song and dance about it at the time or since.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
I believe Scottish Law allowed cadaver dog indications to be presented in a murder trial.  There were alerts to the boot of the accused's car and an area in the workplace where the victim and the accused were known to have been.
(Ms Pilley had been caught by CCTV on her way to work and almost at the entrance although not entering ... the man convicted of her murder was at work in the building for part of that day but left to go on an apparently unscheduled work related journey.)

Suzanne Pilley's body has not been discovered till this day.  But there was sufficient evidence to convince the jury of the guilt of the accused person. (which he has appealed unsuccessfully to the High Court in England - but continues to protest his innocence and the case is under review in Scotland).

I am unsure of the part played by the dogs in the trial for the simple reason there was no song and dance about it at the time or since.

Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence, true!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:05:44 AM
Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

Both dogs alerted to blood.  Therefore if both alert and blood is found Ferryman is correct to state as a fact they alerted to blood for the simple reason that is the fact of the matter.

Which begs the question as to the 'alerts' attributed to the dogs in the Renault Scenic.

Keela alerted to blood in the boot of the vehicle.
Eddie did not alert to blood in the boot of the vehicle.

Eddie alerted to cellular material - which must have been blood since the doner is alive - on the key fob in the door pocket of the vehicle.
Keela did not alert to the key fob or the place it where it was stored.

Work that one out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Pantomime season

Oh yes, I am ...

Well, yes, it does descend to pantomime level to maintain as fact that if both dogs alert at the site from which a cadaver has been removed it must be only to blood, never cadaver contaminant.

On the whole though, it is obvious that the MO is to put across as often and as authoritively as possible that any alert in and around the McCanns must have been only to the nosebleeds/shaving related incidents from ages past.

Never ever must there remain even a hint of the possibility it might be to the cadaver of the missing person.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:14:52 AM
Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence, true!

I know nothing about when or if it has ever been allowed or mentioned in a Scottish court before or since.  It was briefly mentioned in only one newspaper article covering the trial.
As in other cases of missing persons we saw the dogs working in news broadcasts ... usually it leads to the discovery of remains.

Murder convictions without a body are rare and I have no idea if such evidence has been allowed before ... for example in another high profile Scottish case, that of Arlene Fraser, which led to her husband's conviction for murder ... I have never heard of 'dog' evidence of any kind being mentioned.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:26:10 AM
Well, yes, it does descend to pantomime level to maintain as fact that if both dogs alert at the site from which a cadaver has been removed it must be only to blood, never cadaver contaminant.

On the whole though, it is obvious that the MO is to put across as often and as authoritively as possible that any alert in and around the McCanns must have been only to the nosebleeds/shaving related incidents from ages past.

Never ever must there remain even a hint of the possibility it might be to the cadaver of the missing person.

Are you really questioning the little forensic evidence retrieved from apartment 5A?

There was no forensic evidence that the blood found in the McCann residence was theirs or more specifically Madeleine's .
There was forensic evidence of historical bleeds attributed to other doners - notably that of a GNR officer.

There is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine McCann is dead ... and I really do wish you would read and digest what Marting Grime said about the value of the dogs' alerts in his report.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:38:40 AM
Are you really questioning the little forensic evidence retrieved from apartment 5A?

There was no forensic evidence that the blood found in the McCann residence was theirs or more specifically Madeleine's .
There was forensic evidence of historical bleeds attributed to other doners - notably that of a GNR officer.

There is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine McCann is dead ... and I really do wish you would read and digest what Marting Grime said about the value of the dogs' alerts in his report.


Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

It seems to be tolerated here, though.

I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:51:10 AM
I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.

No, you are mistaken.

The alert by the cadaver dog in the same place does not mean definitively that only blood is being alerted to.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:52:03 AM

Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.


Similarly I have concerns that if the cadaver dog has 'alerted' and the blood dog not, the assumption must be that human remains or human remains contaminant were present.

However I have no issues with two dogs both trained on human blood alerting to a substance which proves to be human blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 07, 2015, 10:55:09 AM
When the first alert was for cadaver scent then the 2nd most probably is. Did you notice how long it took Keela to detect the minutest blood in that area where Eddie alerted.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 11:04:41 AM

Similarly I have concerns that if the cadaver dog has 'alerted' and the blood dog not, the assumption must be that human remains or human remains contaminant were present.

However I have no issues with two dogs both trained on human blood alerting to a substance which proves to be human blood.

I agree with you.

It is however unwise to state definitively that only blood alone must have prompted the cadaver dog alert.

If blood was actually found at the site alerted to by both dogs it does not disprove or rule out the presence of cadaver contaminant also.

That is the only point I have issue with.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:07:02 AM

Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.

I see what you mean. It's possible that Eddie reacted to blood and another human decomp substance at the same time, whereas Keela would have only reacted to any blood present (assuming that she's always accurate...). A potential example is the Jersey sex clean-up tissues. In that instance, was Eddie alerting to a speck of blood or blood and sex fluids?

I have a caveat, however. Grime states that Keela will only react in the physical presence of blood, but he says nothing about whether Eddie would react to the residual smell of blood when no longer physically present. As the apartment had been rented out numerous times, I don't see how something as innocent as a bloodied plaster or sock that had been removed prior to the inspection can be ruled out.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
I see what you mean. It's possible that Eddie reacted to blood and another human decomp substance at the same time, whereas Keela would have only reacted to any blood present (assuming that she's always accurate...). A potential example is the Jersey sex clean-up tissues. In that instance, was Eddie alerting to a speck of blood or blood and sex fluids?

I have a caveat, however. Grime states that Keela will only react in the physical presence of blood, but he says nothing about whether Eddie would react to the residual smell of blood when no longer physically present. As the apartment had been rented out numerous times, I don't see how something as innocent as a bloodied plaster or sock that had been removed prior to the inspection can be ruled out.

Quite.

It will generally be point of principle if I challenge what seems to be a misleading statement.

I readily accept that my knowledge of the case is limited in comparison to most who post here.

I just don`t think it is wise to make definitive judgements about what the cadaver dog alerted to.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
A small point is that there was no forensic evidence that there was any blood anywhere in 5A or in the car. We're all assuming that the trace DNA must have been blood because that's all that Keela was trained for.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:36:19 AM
Quite.

It will generally be point of principle if I challenge what seems to be a misleading statement.

I readily accept that my knowledge of the case is limited in comparison to most who post here.

I just don`t think it is wise to make definitive judgements about what the cadaver dog alerted to.

On the other hand, I find it simplistic to assume that Eddie-only alert + missing child (- established other death) = child died in 5A.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 11:39:44 AM
You are not when the first alert was for cadaver scent then the 2nd most probably is. Did you notice how long it took Keela to detect the minutest blood in that area where Eddie alerted.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Initially when one starts to read Madeleine McCann's case it is with the assumption that everything was sequential with one reported event making a smooth transition to another.

I don't know how it works in other investigations of this type ... but when considering the events of the 3rd May 2007 ... there are many significant gaps in the narrative.

For example ... until fairly recently I thought Jane Tanner's sighting and the Smith sighting had been reported to the police at the start of the investigation ... that the Smith sighting was not reported till a fortnight after the event was a bit of a puzzle.

Between Madeleine's disappearance and the visit from the dogs the fact that four other families had holidayed in the apartment from which she had disappeared is very significant.


I noticed a post today (sorry, I don't remember which one or which thread) in which the use of luminol was mentioned.
This called to mind a conversation (soundtrack of dog video) Martin Grime had with the officer present when he asked what had been used in the earlier blood investigations as luminol interferes with the dogs' sensory abilities.


**snip
It is often used as a last resort, since the chemical reaction can destroy the very evidence it reveals, but it can still prove incredibly useful. For example, it might reveal an assailant’s shoe prints or show investigators where to look more closely. Blood on carpet that may be invisible to the naked eye can be revealed, prompting investigators to look for much larger, visible stains in the wood beneath. Those working with luminol must be wary of false positives, however, as it also reacts to the presence of urine, copper, and horseradish sauce.
http://listverse.com/2014/05/29/10-fascinating-facts-about-forensics/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
No, you are mistaken.

The alert by the cadaver dog in the same place does not mean definitively that only blood is being alerted to.

Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 12:31:48 PM
Initially when one starts to read Madeleine McCann's case it is with the assumption that everything was sequential with one reported event making a smooth transition to another.

I don't know how it works in other investigations of this type ... but when considering the events of the 3rd May 2007 ... there are many significant gaps in the narrative.

For example ... until fairly recently I thought Jane Tanner's sighting and the Smith sighting had been reported to the police at the start of the investigation ... that the Smith sighting was not reported till a fortnight after the event was a bit of a puzzle.

Between Madeleine's disappearance and the visit from the dogs the fact that four other families had holidayed in the apartment from which she had disappeared is very significant.


I noticed a post today (sorry, I don't remember which one or which thread) in which the use of luminol was mentioned.
This called to mind a conversation (soundtrack of dog video) Martin Grime had with the officer present when he asked what had been used in the earlier blood investigations as luminol interferes with the dogs' sensory abilities.


**snip
It is often used as a last resort, since the chemical reaction can destroy the very evidence it reveals, but it can still prove incredibly useful. For example, it might reveal an assailant’s shoe prints or show investigators where to look more closely. Blood on carpet that may be invisible to the naked eye can be revealed, prompting investigators to look for much larger, visible stains in the wood beneath. Those working with luminol must be wary of false positives, however, as it also reacts to the presence of urine, copper, and horseradish sauce.
http://listverse.com/2014/05/29/10-fascinating-facts-about-forensics/

Luminol also reacts with some cleaning agents containing bleach (cf the Kercher case).

It's not clear whether luminol or a black torch was used in 5A, nor is it entirely clear where or how the initial team searched for blood on 4 May.

It was quite possibly a black torch as that was what was used in the Cipriano home (I've posted about it somewhere on here). The problem is that a black torch will also show up traces of sweat - and that's one of my issues in that case: an age-old speck of blood within a patch of a sweaty handprint could be misinterpreted as a large patch  of blood.

"Pure" sweat apparently doesn't contain DNA, but would do if combined with skin cells.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 12:35:41 PM
Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains.

I have no problem with that.

I'm still curious as to whether Eddie would have reacted to the residual scent of a bloodied plaster or other item or not.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 12:40:25 PM
On the other hand, I find it simplistic to assume that Eddie-only alert + missing child (- established other death) = child died in 5A.

I have never assumed that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 12:50:56 PM
Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains.


Thankyou for acknowledging that possibility.
 

You didn`t need to make the point for me though. I`d made it for myself several times already.

You have asserted several times on this thread........as below....... that alerts by both dogs must indicate only blood, thereby ruling out cadaver contaminant.


Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?



Ferryman
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!



.........and another one!

Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:56:38 PM

Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.



Ferryman
Yes, it does.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 12:54:55 PM

Thankyou for acknowledging that possibility.
 
(About time, too! )

You have asserted several times on this thread........as below....... that alerts by both dogs must indicate only blood, thereby ruling out cadaver contaminant.


Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?



Ferryman
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!

If you don't find other remains then the only (safe!) assumption is that both dogs have alerted to blood.

Since it seems unlikely that Eddie and Keela ever worked together on the same case before PdL, that is all the more true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 01:25:50 PM
I'm surprised the peeps who think dogs are "incredibly unreliable" haven't found and grasped the pregnancy straw yet?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 01:30:30 PM
I'm surprised the peeps who think dogs are "incredibly unreliable" haven't found and grasped the pregnancy straw yet?

Eddie's track-record from PdL doesn't inspire confidence.

Did he scent something on cuddle cat?

Or didn't he?

Why could he (apparently!) detect scent on clothes in the gym he could find no trace of (that is scent!) in the villa?

All most odd ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 01:48:18 PM
Eddie's track-record from PdL doesn't inspire confidence.

Did he scent something on cuddle cat?

Or didn't he?

Why could he (apparently!) detect scent on clothes in the gym he could find no trace of (that is scent!) in the villa?

All most odd ...
If you watch the first alert in the Rua Das Flores house video, it is not to the cat, it is to the last thing sniffed, which answers both your questions.
By a straw not yet grasped at I meant k9 pregnancy surprised you haven't used that yet?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 01:52:16 PM
Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  Regardless of what has been subsequently claimed, the initial response was (due to the fact that there was no forced entry to the apartment and that one of the external doors was left unlocked) to a child who might have got out on her own and got lost.  Bagging articles for DNA testing was not considered a serious requirement until hours later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 01:57:20 PM

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

Absolutely, Keela alerted to blood while Eddie alerted to blood and cadaver.  Both dogs alerting at the same spot could be an indicator of blood or both cadaver and blood.  Unless a forensic sample is found and independently tested giving a positive for blood or cadaver then there is no way of determining what the dogs found.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 02:12:16 PM
Absolutely, Keela alerted to blood while Eddie alerted to blood and cadaver.  Both dogs alerting at the same spot could be an indicator of blood or both cadaver and blood.  Unless a forensic sample is found and independently tested giving a positive for blood or cadaver then there is no way of determining what the dogs found.

The legal assumption (or the assumption that would be made in court) is that both dogs alerted to blood in the absence of anything corroborating otherwise.

And since there are at least two question-marks over the provenance of Eddie's alerts in PdL, none of that inspires confidence.

Before PdL I don't believe there is any record of Eddie and Keela working on the same case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:17:25 PM
I don't know how you desensitise a dog to a specific scent.  But you can clearly train a dog not to bark and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark at specific times and to specific scents, but at no other time or scent.

How do you train a dog not to bark at cats (for example?)

You clearly can ...

And I'm sure you can desensitise a dog to the scent of blood ....

The simple answer is that you cannot teach a dog a negative.  A dog which is trained to react to specific substances will only react to those substances.  If you require that the dog will never react to blood then blood will have been meticulously absent from his or her training regime.  It's not a case of ignoring blood, rather a case of reacting to that which they have been taught to react to.  A dog will always smell blood but if trained to find only cadaver then only cadaver it will find.

In order to separate blood from cadaver then three dogs are required.

Dog A reacts only to blood.
Dog B reacts only to cadaver.
Dog C reacts to both.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:32:06 PM
I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.

Not necessarily, the cadaver dog could be alerting to blood or cadaver or both as Carew has already pointed out.  See my reference to 3 dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:38:42 PM
A small point is that there was no forensic evidence that there was any blood anywhere in 5A or in the car. We're all assuming that the trace DNA must have been blood because that's all that Keela was trained for.

If a dog is trained to react to blood and subsequently does so then it is a fair bet that blood has been found.

By the same token, if a dog is trained to react to both blood and cadaver and subsequently reacts then the only conclusion which can be drawn is that the substance found was blood, cadaver or even both.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 03:02:41 PM
Not necessarily, the cadaver dog could be alerting to blood or cadaver or both as Carew has already pointed out.  See my reference to 3 dogs.

Pare the statement right down.

If there is blood in one spot inspected by both dogs, both dogs will react to blood.

All else is conditional.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 03:37:26 PM
Pare the statement right down.

If there is blood in one spot inspected by both dogs, both dogs will react to blood.

All else is conditional.

I don't agree.  Unless you apply the 3-dog test, nothing can be guaranteed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 03:42:54 PM
I don't agree.  Unless you apply the 3-dog test, nothing can be guaranteed.

You think that if there is blood present, one dog or other might miss the scent?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
If you watch the first alert in the Rua Das Flores house video, it is not to the cat, it is to the last thing sniffed, which answers both your questions.
By a straw not yet grasped at I meant k9 pregnancy surprised you haven't used that yet?

                                           Good Lord! ... was Eddie pregnant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
You think that if there is blood present, one dog or other might miss the scent?

No more than Eddie would miss a cadaver scent.  Both dogs alerting indicated that blood or blood and cadaver had been found.  Unless a cadaver only dog was used there was no way of determining otherwise.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 05:00:09 PM
No more than Eddie would miss a cadaver scent.  Both dogs alerting indicated that blood or blood and cadaver had been found.  Unless a cadaver only dog was used there was no way of determining otherwise.

I beg to differ.  Eddie and Keela were used together for the first time ever in PdL, and we know there was no cadaver odour ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 05:45:36 PM
Both dogs alerting at the same spot does not rule out the possible presence of cadaver contaminant though you said it did.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 05:50:53 PM
What is the evidence of abduction ferryman ?

You keep stating it without a foundation of evidence to back it up.

As to the prosecutors, they had insufficient evidence to charge anyone.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on July 07, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour

Well, yes.  There is not a shred of evidence of cadaver odour.

There is evidence of questionable alerts, to clothing in one spot, but no reaction to the same clothing in a different spot.

And cuddle-cat.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
Well, yes.  There is not a shred of evidence of cadaver odour.

There is evidence of questionable alerts, to clothing in one spot, but no reaction to the same clothing in a different spot.

And cuddle-cat.


When was it shown the dogs did not alert to a body ferryman ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:10:57 PM

What is the evidence of abduction ferryman ?

You keep stating it without a foundation of evidence to back it up.

As to the prosecutors, they had insufficient evidence to charge anyone.

The principal evidence of abduction is the absence of evidence of anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 06:27:10 PM

According to his book Mr Amaral had already determined that his theory was the only game in town. 

As far as he was concerned, even before the first sniff occurred, there could only be one outcome ... "Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible." Amaral Chapter 17.

Thus the mindset for the classic mistake of trying to make the evidence fit the theory distorted the outcome, or lack of it, of the dogs visit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:31:30 PM
According to his book Mr Amaral had already determined that his theory was the only game in town. 

As far as he was concerned, even before the first sniff occurred, there could only be one outcome ... "Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible." Amaral Chapter 17.

Thus the mindset for the classic mistake of trying to make the evidence fit the theory distorted the outcome, or lack of it, of the dogs visit.

Whilst the mindset of the mccann supporters says abduction or nothing.

Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Davel on July 07, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
Whilst the mindset of the mccann supporters says abduction or nothing.

Sounds familiar.

you can't even get that right...I've always said abduction is by far the most likely
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:39:43 PM
you can't even get that right...I've always said abduction is by far the most likely

Of course dave.

That's why you back it 100%. 8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 07:08:43 PM
Re the Archiving Report

Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 07:10:09 PM
"More recently, it’s Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder."  Amaral: chapter 17



Actually ... no he did not.  But what is one more inaccuracy in a book which is full of inaccuracies. 

Sometimes mistakes are made and when they are they should be acknowledged as such. 

It is remarkable that the 'field full of bodies' as indicated by the use of ground radar has not become an urban legend or that Eddie's 'alerts' to the infant skull never mention that it was actually a very old coconut shell http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/18/skull-fragment-is-not-bone-145799/   or that the 'alert' in the bunker was to semen and blood.
I don't think there is much to say about a children's home and the discovery of milk teeth.




Jersey ‘graves’ could be ‘Bergerac TV props’
Tuesday 4 Mar 2008 4:39 pm

**snip
A police source told The Times:

The field was turned into a graveyard.

They used fibreglass gravestones but they were going to have a burial scene, so they also actually dug a number of full graves.
The full graves go quite deep. They were filled in, and the places where there had been digging registered on the radar.

No-one realised until one of the local officers pointed it out.”

The source said that when Lenny Harper, the deputy chief officer of Jersey Police, was told the real reason they had found so many suspicious spots was because of Bergerac, “he put his head in his hands and uttered a few choice words.

However they added that the search was now being done with the knowledge that there may be an alternative explanation, The Times claimed.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2008/03/04/jersey-graves-could-be-bergerac-tv-props-23444/#ixzz3fEH9kpQE
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 07:19:01 PM
Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm


" ... it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Seems a rational conclusion and summed up very succinctly ... yet Mr Amaral took it upon himself to write a book in which he levelled the most scurrilous accusations possible at the parents of the missing child whose case he failed to come even close to solving during his tenure.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 08:13:08 PM
"medium man" should be "average man".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 08:56:45 PM
"More recently, it’s Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder."  Amaral: chapter 17



Actually ... no he did not.  But what is one more inaccuracy in a book which is full of inaccuracies. 

Sometimes mistakes are made and when they are they should be acknowledged as such. 

It is remarkable that the 'field full of bodies' as indicated by the use of ground radar has not become an urban legend or that Eddie's 'alerts' to the infant skull never mention that it was actually a very old coconut shell http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/18/skull-fragment-is-not-bone-145799/   or that the 'alert' in the bunker was to semen and blood.
I don't think there is much to say about a children's home and the discovery of milk teeth.




Jersey ‘graves’ could be ‘Bergerac TV props’
Tuesday 4 Mar 2008 4:39 pm

**snip
A police source told The Times:

The field was turned into a graveyard.

They used fibreglass gravestones but they were going to have a burial scene, so they also actually dug a number of full graves.
The full graves go quite deep. They were filled in, and the places where there had been digging registered on the radar.

No-one realised until one of the local officers pointed it out.”

The source said that when Lenny Harper, the deputy chief officer of Jersey Police, was told the real reason they had found so many suspicious spots was because of Bergerac, “he put his head in his hands and uttered a few choice words.

However they added that the search was now being done with the knowledge that there may be an alternative explanation, The Times claimed.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2008/03/04/jersey-graves-could-be-bergerac-tv-props-23444/#ixzz3fEH9kpQE

The Jersey abuse case is not finished, of course. Just like the Zapata case it could turn out that Eddie will be vindicated in the end.

Police investigating child abuse claims on the island of Jersey say they are set to question 13 celebrities, politicians and sports stars.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111224/Police-set-question-thirteen-celebrities-politicians-sports-stars-investigation-historic-child-abuse-island-Jersey.html#ixzz3fElmYJ6b
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 07, 2015, 09:12:27 PM

" ... it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Seems a rational conclusion and summed up very succinctly ... yet Mr Amaral took it upon himself to write a book in which he levelled the most scurrilous accusations possible at the parents of the missing child whose case he failed to come even close to solving during his tenure.


...And you know this because?

I think the dogs are exceptionally clever. Without physical evidence the barking can only be a guessing summation, although I do believe Amaral did what most police would do, that is look for other circumstantial evidence and see what they come up with- Amaral and the PJ came up with a thesis...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 09:31:54 PM
The Jersey abuse case is not finished, of course. Just like the Zapata case it could turn out that Eddie will be vindicated in the end.

Police investigating child abuse claims on the island of Jersey say they are set to question 13 celebrities, politicians and sports stars.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111224/Police-set-question-thirteen-celebrities-politicians-sports-stars-investigation-historic-child-abuse-island-Jersey.html#ixzz3fElmYJ6b
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 10:08:52 PM
The simple answer is that you cannot teach a dog a negative.  A dog which is trained to react to specific substances will only react to those substances.  If you require that the dog will never react to blood then blood will have been meticulously absent from his or her training regime.  It's not a case of ignoring blood, rather a case of reacting to that which they have been taught to react to.  A dog will always smell blood but if trained to find only cadaver then only cadaver it will find.

In order to separate blood from cadaver then three dogs are required.

Dog A reacts only to blood.
Dog B reacts only to cadaver.
Dog C reacts to both.

How do you separate molecules of blood from the rest of a cadaver (decomposing muscles, etc)? And what would the purpose be?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour

That seems logical to me if there is a margin of error either way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:25:36 PM
Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:26:22 PM
How do you separate molecules of blood from the rest of a cadaver (decomposing muscles, etc)? And what would the purpose be?

That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:45:43 PM

Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv

The investigation is Operation Whistle, not Yewtree.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.

Of this I am certain.

Still today (in the rest of the world that uses cadaver dogs) it is not standard that uncorroborated dog-alerts are taken as infallible evidence of death.

Until comparatively recently, the same was true in the US (still is in most parts of the US)

The exception is the US Forensic Canine Program

I can think of only one reason why that would be.

Dogs in that program (US spelling) have been desensitised to blood.

I can think of no other logical or coherent reason for it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:50:53 PM
No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.

That remains to be demonstrated;

In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.

Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:54:02 PM
That remains to be demonstrated;

In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.

Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:58:25 PM
That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.

According to the legal report it does. You keep quoting it to prove innocence, but it also said what i quoted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 11:10:07 PM

Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv

The investigation is Operation Whistle, not Yewtree.

Whatever.  It still won't go any where near vindicating Eddie ... I think the problem you appear to have is recognising facts with which you disagree and the fact remains that the visit to Haut de la Garenne was an unmitigated disaster from most points of view.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 12:41:38 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

It is not hypocritical to protect oneself within the rights of The Law.  What Robert Murat decided to do was his own affair.

Lies had been spread through The Media with leaks from The PJ.  And The PJ blatantly lied to them during interviews.  This was despicable.

Did Amaral deliberately misunderstand The Dogs and The DNA, or was he just unbelievably ignorant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

There's no conclusion yet. It's been re-opened and the investigation is on-going.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:09:30 PM
How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them.

Beautifully and succinctly put, Benice ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 01:13:19 PM
How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them.

Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.

Robert Murat insisted he spent the evening May 3rd home with his mother.

The point is hotly disputed ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2015, 01:25:01 PM
Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.

But Gerry McCann did exactly the same as Robert Murat.   So what's the difference?  Why does that point to the innocence of one man but not the other?

I don't know how your reference to the Sun facebook is connected.   I've never read it.  Care to elucidate?


Sorry just realised I'm off topic.  No need to reply PF.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 01:28:10 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:31:07 PM
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?

Was Eddie deployed in the bathroom?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 01:47:08 PM
Was Eddie deployed in the bathroom?
Yes here is 5a bathroom http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=17m23s
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 08, 2015, 01:52:50 PM
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?

Nothing can be deduced.
She could have drowned in the bath & her body left in cold water for a few hours to slow the rate of decomposition.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:04:31 PM
No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.

The AG couldn't state any such thing since nobody knows what happened to Maddie or who if anyone was involved in her disappearance.

He most certainly never cleared anyone!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.

To a dog, cadaver odour and blood smell completely differently and that is why a dog taught to detect only cadaver odour will only alert to cadaver odour.  That is the mistake which Martin Grime made in PdL, he used the wrong dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
The current SIO has worked on a case where a dog was incredibly reliable.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

They had no choice given the ever-so-cooperative tapas groups' decision to not cooperate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:42:31 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

The first arguido was in mid-May 2007. At that stage, he hadn't been through months of lurid half-baked allegations fluttering out of PJ windows.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:45:16 PM
Nothing can be deduced.
She could have drowned in the bath & her body left in cold water for a few hours to slow the rate of decomposition.

As one does on holiday. If that had been the case, why didn't Eddie alert to the bathtub?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 02:45:34 PM
The first arguido was in mid-May 2007. At that stage, he hadn't been through months of lurid half-baked allegations fluttering out of PJ windows.

He also understood how the system worked, lies and all.  And he spoke Portuguese.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:50:01 PM
He also understood how the system worked, lies and all.  And he spoke Portuguese.

I'm not sure that even he realised that his attempts to be helpful made the tabloids equate him with Ian Huntley.

He brought a lawyer with him during the latest round, didn't he?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 02:57:40 PM
I'm not sure that even he realised that his attempts to be helpful made the tabloids equate him with Ian Huntley.

He brought a lawyer with him during the latest round, didn't he?

There was a lawyer kicking around somewhere throughout.  I think he asked to be made an Arguido which would have allowed him to have a lawyer present.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 03:07:03 PM
To a dog, cadaver odour and blood smell completely differently and that is why a dog taught to detect only cadaver odour will only alert to cadaver odour.  That is the mistake which Martin Grime made in PdL, he used the wrong dogs.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a unique cadaver odour (at least to a dog).

Think about it.

A whole decomposing body will have a different smell to different body parts. Each will give off a certain "bouquet", and each varies according to the stage.

You don't have to be a springer spaniel to distinguish between the smell of liver, kidney and steak do you? A rotting bit of offal won't smell the same as a 10-year-old bone that your dog happened to have hidden under your sofa.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 03:10:27 PM
There was a lawyer kicking around somewhere throughout.  I think he asked to be made an Arguido which would have allowed him to have a lawyer present.

I don't know whether he asked, whether his lawyer insisted, or whether that was simply part of the PT protection measures undertaken for questioning by a foreign police force.

Was he an arguido in this latest round? He did apparently have a lawyer present (so would I have done), but the laws changed, enabling a lawyer to be present even if you're interviewed as a witness, so that doesn't actually mean much.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 08, 2015, 03:11:04 PM
As one does on holiday. If that had been the case, why didn't Eddie alert to the bathtub?

If it takes approx. 90 mins at an average room temperature for cadaverine to be discernible to a VRD's senses, so how much longer would the process take if the body was in cold water?
I'm not saying that is what happened - far from it - but the dog not alerting to the bath actually proves nothing....unless someone spotted a man in a wetsuit, carrying a little girl, wandering around after 7pm.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 08:21:08 PM
AFAIK, there is no such thing as a unique cadaver odour (at least to a dog).

Think about it.

A whole decomposing body will have a different smell to different body parts. Each will give off a certain "bouquet", and each varies according to the stage.

You don't have to be a springer spaniel to distinguish between the smell of liver, kidney and steak do you? A rotting bit of offal won't smell the same as a 10-year-old bone that your dog happened to have hidden under your sofa.

I think this was covered, here, in paragraph two (if I understood your post properly, which wasn't too clear)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2480.jpg



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:22:04 PM
The current SIO has worked on a case where a dog was incredibly reliable.

Do you mean Ms Wall? Which case?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

you have just made a quote whch refutes your position, oh dear, all it says is it is a fact that Madeleine is missing, but unclear who is responsible or how she disappeared
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 09, 2015, 10:45:53 AM
you have just made a quote whch refutes your position, oh dear, all it says is it is a fact that Madeleine is missing, but unclear who is responsible or how she disappeared

The (shelved) enquiry established beyond doubt that neither Kate and Gerry nor any of their friends (and neither Robert Murat) had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of all three (original!) arguidos ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 11:43:17 AM
The (shelved) enquiry established beyond doubt that neither Kate and Gerry nor any of their friends (and neither Robert Murat) had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of all three (original!) arguidos ...
The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of everyone.
ETA and presumably looked afresh at the dog alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 09, 2015, 11:51:18 AM

Amaral and The Dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 12:12:10 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 12:38:26 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007

                                  Hmmm ... did Sol mention if it happened to be a pink blanket?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 12:53:29 PM
                                  Hmmm ... did Sol mention if it happened to be a pink blanket?
IMO "blanket" is given only as an example of the assumption of being wrapped up in or enclosed in something. Which is assumed because the GNR dog reportedly was not able to continue the trail from that second unnamed indoor location to the outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
IMO "blanket" is given only as an example of the assumption of being wrapped up in or enclosed in something. Which is assumed because the GNR dog reportedly was not able to continue the trail from that second unnamed indoor location to the outside.

It's possible that she was taken out and wrapped in something... but I don't see how it could have been the pink blanket as that is what had been given to the dogs to attempt to find her.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 01:26:21 PM
Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
If true, it claims IMO that a GNR dog was deployed inside the apartment on 4th May, and tracked from the child bedroom to some other location inside the apartment, but was then unable to track further from that unnamed indoor location to the outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
If true, it claims IMO that a GNR dog was deployed inside the apartment on 4th May, and tracked from the child bedroom to some other location inside the apartment, but was then unable to track further from that unnamed indoor location to the outside.

It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 03:06:58 PM
It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.

On this, as on other dog-related issues, I am out on a limb.

Very highly trained and well-disciplined though I believe the dogs the Portuguese deployed to have been, I do not believe that they were of the right discipline for the type of search required.

I think they had air-scenting dogs of the type that track the generic human scent, a belief supported by a reference of Mark Harrison in one of his reports.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:14:51 PM
It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.
Two things would be very remarkable indeed if the Sol's source is true.
1. If true, the most recent scent on 4th May led from child bedroom to another point inside the apartment.
2. If true, the most recent scent stopped at that unnamed second point and didn't continue out a door.
How could that be possible?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 13, 2015, 03:17:19 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 13, 2015, 03:30:13 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007

I believe the Sol reporter has confused what he was told the VRD dogs found as being what the GNR sniffer dogs found. We know that the GNR dogs followed Madeleine's(?) scent from the front door.
The date of the report is the clue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:30:41 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?
If it was another person's scent, it would still be remarkable, to track a scent to a point on a plan of a residence, and have the scent just end there and go nowhere. Why would Sol invent such an apparent impossibility?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:38:12 PM
I believe the Sol reporter has confused what he was told the VRD dogs found as being what the GNR sniffer dogs found. We know that the GNR dogs followed Madeleine's(?) scent from the front door.
The date of the report is the clue.
The Sol article is dated 4th Aug but claims to be describing a GNR dog's indoor track on 4th May
"on the day following the English girl's disappearance".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 13, 2015, 03:50:04 PM
The Sol article is dated 4th Aug but claims to be describing a GNR dog's indoor track on 4th May
"on the day following the English girl's disappearance".


SOL ? AUGUST 18

New contradictions in Maddie?s case

By Felicia Cabrita, with Margarida Davim
Translation by astro

*snip*
The path that the English dogs followed 2 weeks ago, in the surroundings of the apartment, exclude the possibility that the child was abducted and is still alive. The dogs walked the only two paths that Maddie?s family and friends knew.

One of them leads to Luz beach. The irish citizen Martin Smith, a local resident for years, told Sol that on that night he crossed ways with a man who was carrying a child, with the characteristics of Maddie. That path was searched by police and other people. Six days after the disappearance, Gerry, who was accompanied by an unknown individual, also seemed to participate in the searches, but on the opposite side of the way the dogs walked.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Smith lived there for years & spoke to the Sol?
I think the Sol were very capable of putting their own spin on things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 03:52:03 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?

Dogs of the wrong scent-detecting discipline:

The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.

(Mark Harrison).

Very well-trained dogs, I'm sure, but just not of the right discipline for the type of search required.

Not remotely the fault of the GNR officers.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 04:08:51 PM
The SOL 4th Aug article claims a GNR dog was deployed to track inside the apartment on 4th May.
Forensics found numerous canine footprints and hairs all over the inside of the apartment.
This means SOL is probably correct.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 04:12:41 PM
The SOL 4th Aug article claims a GNR dog was deployed to track inside the apartment on 4th May.
Forensics found numerous canine footprints and hairs all over the inside of the apartment.
This means SOL is probably correct.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

SOL?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
SOL?
Yes Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 05:39:28 PM
Yes Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html

Pact of silence?

The  explanation that the group couldn't discuss the investigation because of Portuguese secrecy laws?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 06:34:15 PM
If it was another person's scent, it would still be remarkable, to track a scent to a point on a plan of a residence, and have the scent just end there and go nowhere. Why would Sol invent such an apparent impossibility?

Quite simply Pegasus, the press reporting of Madeleine McCann's case was a disgrace.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 06:38:07 PM
Pact of silence?
The  explanation that the group couldn't discuss the investigation because of Portuguese secrecy laws?
"another point in apartment"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Quite simply Pegasus, the press reporting of Madeleine McCann's case was a disgrace.
Often yes, a good example being a journo who previously fed us the WMD guff.
But back to dogs - the numerous canine footprints (source already posted) all over the inside of apartment prove that at least one GNR dog was allowed to search inside apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:02:47 PM
Often yes, a good example being a journo who previously fed us the WMD guff.
But back to dogs - the numerous canine footprints (source already posted) all over the inside of apartment prove that at least one GNR dog was allowed to search inside apartment.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 09:10:05 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£

There was a debate about whether taking such a step would be worthwhile, which clearly there wouldn't have been if these handlers had ground-scenting dogs.

Ground-scenting dogs can't work any other way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:22:55 PM
There was a debate about whether taking such a step would be worthwhile, which clearly there wouldn't have been if these handlers had ground-scenting dogs.

Ground-scenting dogs can't work any other way.

Sorry, I didn't understand that

I questioned why would dogs who cant trace a personal scent be issued with personal items

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 09:45:00 PM
Sorry, I didn't understand that

I questioned why would dogs who cant trace a personal scent be issued with personal items

The bit you didn't understand is the answer to your question.

The handlers (in good faith) improvised in the hope that their dogs would track Madeleine's scent.

There was never the slightest chance that they would.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 09:52:12 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£
The date of this indoor GNR dog behaviour was 4 May, and the date Sol learned of it was a few days before 4 Aug, IMO.

A good reason to do it, starting from the child bedroom, would be to find which door or window was the exit, IMO.
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
The bit you didn't understand is the answer to your question.

The handlers (in good faith) improvised in the hope that their dogs would track Madeleine's scent.

There was never the slightest chance that they would.

Oh, not sure I believe this
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:06:03 PM
The date of this indoor GNR dog behaviour was 4 May, and the date Sol learned of it was a few days before 4 Aug, IMO.

A good reason to do it, starting from the child bedroom, would be to find which door or window was the exit, IMO.
Ferryman says they cant track individual scents

And we still have no file confirmation (or any other) this ever happened

Im getting the idea youre usng stuff to prove some theory of yours, care to share what you think happened?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 10:14:02 PM
Oh, not sure I believe this

It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:33:10 PM
It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.

This doesnt make sense. Police ask for personal effects when they know their dogs cant use them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 13, 2015, 10:46:19 PM

What an absolute pleasure it is to read a totally logical Thread that contains no insults.  Thank you all so much for this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 10:50:02 PM
This doesnt make sense. Police ask for personal effects when they know their dogs cant use them?

The alternative was to give up on Madeleine ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 10:54:00 PM