UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: misty on July 10, 2015, 10:32:54 PM

Title: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: misty on July 10, 2015, 10:32:54 PM
Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?

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Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 10, 2015, 10:34:04 PM
Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?

I believe they did misty.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: misty on July 10, 2015, 10:44:50 PM
I believe they did misty.

Thanks. I just wondered whether, if they had, it proved to be of use in that investigation.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 10, 2015, 11:16:14 PM
Thanks. I just wondered whether, if they had, it proved to be of use in that investigation.
What did the police get them to "reconstitute" I wonder...?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Eleanor on July 10, 2015, 11:45:51 PM
What did the police get them to "reconstitute" I wonder...?

This hardly bears thinking about because there wasn't anything to reconstitute.  Apart from Joana, and no one saw where she went after she left the shop.

But it didn't half stitch them up, whatever it was.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 12:04:53 AM
What did the police get them to "reconstitute" I wonder...?

From RTP October 2008 :

"Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys."
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: misty on July 11, 2015, 12:10:39 AM
From RTP October 2008 :

"Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys."

So the only reconstitution was the alleged act of manslaughter itself and not the movements of the accused people  on the night Joana disappeared?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 12:15:57 AM
So the only reconstitution was the alleged act of manslaughter itself and not the movements of the accused people  on the night Joana disappeared?

You mean murder don't you misty ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: misty on July 11, 2015, 12:32:18 AM
You mean murder don't you misty ?

No. No cause of death could be proven.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Eleanor on July 11, 2015, 12:32:51 AM
So the only reconstitution was the alleged act of manslaughter itself and not the movements of the accused people  on the night Joana disappeared?

Ah, just a reconstitution of how he done it.  Probably to avoid another beating.  Did they do it On Site?  In the Pig Pen?  Or was it in a car sent for scrap?  Or halfway up a mountain?  They never did decide where.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 12:35:29 AM
Ah, just a reconstitution of how he done it.  Probably to avoid another beating.  Did they do it On Site?  In the Pig Pen?  Or was it in a car sent for scrap?  Or halfway up a mountain?  They never did decide where.

Was he beaten then Eleanor ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Eleanor on July 11, 2015, 01:32:42 AM
Was he beaten then Eleanor ?

Quite possibly.  Everyone else was.  Why should he have been left out?  Leandro Silva say he was.  And I actually believe him.  But Leandro didn't give in.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 11, 2015, 01:49:03 AM
Quite possibly.  Everyone else was.  Why should he have been left out?  Leandro Silva say he was.  And I actually believe him.  But Leandro didn't give in.

You make it sound like Portugal just ten years ago was the equivalent of the worst South American states in the 70s with their disappearring of thousands of people and torture, steady on

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Eleanor on July 11, 2015, 03:02:15 AM
You make it sound like Portugal just ten years ago was the equivalent of the worst South American states in the 70s with their disappearring of thousands of people and torture, steady on

It probably was.  And certainly nothing much to write home about.  Many abuses of ordinary people.  You should read some history of what was going on in Portugal in the not so distant past.

The real shit bags reinvented themselves.  Amaral and the likes of he were just part of the reinvention.  Not even their fault actually.  But they did go on to reinfect The PJ.

It isn't rocket science.  It happens in every dictatorship for a number of years.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 11, 2015, 08:51:14 AM
From RTP October 2008 :

"Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys."
How very macabre.  Do the PJ always get murderers to take part in video reconstitutions of their crimes?  for what purpose I wonder?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 11, 2015, 09:21:13 AM
If you have confessed to a murder then I can't really see the point in making you perform your murder in front of video cameras unless it is to ensure your guilty actions are physically witnessed by the eyes of the court and your guilt therefore thoroughly cemented as fact.  It's all a bit dodgy in my view. 
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 10:33:22 AM
Quite possibly.  Everyone else was.  Why should he have been left out?  Leandro Silva say he was.  And I actually believe him.  But Leandro didn't give in.

Leandro Silva only said he was beaten after a large compensation cheque was wiggled in front of his nose by Correia.

Tell me Eleanor when does the case against the PJ officers who 'beat up' JC and LS come to court ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 10:34:53 AM
No. No cause of death could be proven.

The couple were convicted of murder I think that's all we need to know.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Benice on July 11, 2015, 12:05:46 PM
Leandro Silva only said he was beaten after a large compensation cheque was wiggled in front of his nose by Correia.

Tell me Eleanor when does the case against the PJ officers who 'beat up' JC and LS come to court ?

It doesn't look as if it ever will come to court.      It would seem that as none of the PJ officers present at the police station at the time -  have the slightest idea which ones amongst them spent their time torturing a defenceless woman  - then that's an end to it.     The word 'unbelievable!' doesn't even come close IMO. 



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 01:09:25 PM
I don't find that "common experience" that children normally get home safely is evidence that this particular child did.

There obviously ARE cases in which abused children have been the subject of investigations into false abduction scenarios. I'm aware of that. However, in this case, I can't see anything to support that this was the case.

There is simply no significant evidence to support what is alleged to have happened to this child.

On the other hand, there IS evidence that the media turned against the Ciprianos once the Faro boys arrived in Portimão.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 01:22:50 PM
Specks of unidentifiable and undated blood in an average household (some of which was of animal origin) just doesn't seem to be compatible with the the prosecution theory of sawing a child in half and then in several pieces without leaving the slightest trace of incriminating forensic traces to support that theory anywhere seems somewhat unlikely.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 11, 2015, 05:59:20 PM
I don't find that "common experience" that children normally get home safely is evidence that this particular child did.

There obviously ARE cases in which abused children have been the subject of investigations into false abduction scenarios. I'm aware of that. However, in this case, I can't see anything to support that this was the case.

There is simply no significant evidence to support what is alleged to have happened to this child.

On the other hand, there IS evidence that the media turned against the Ciprianos once the Faro boys arrived in Portimão.


Pwhat changed was the mccann involvement of Correia via Metardo3, and we know who employed them.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 08:46:01 PM

Pwhat changed was the mccann involvement of Correia via Metardo3, and we know who employed them.

The national media frenzy against the Ciprianos was in 2004 / 2005. The police disciplinary sanction against Cristovão (and presumably the one concerning Amaral) also date back to 2005.

The T9 hadn't even set foot in the country by then.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: faithlilly on July 11, 2015, 10:57:17 PM
The national media frenzy against the Ciprianos was in 2004 / 2005. The police disciplinary sanction against Cristovão (and presumably the one concerning Amaral) also date back to 2005.

The T9 hadn't even set foot in the country by then.

Not sure what point you're trying to make Carana. Even if there was a media frenzy in 2004/2005, and evidence of this has yet to be posted, are you saying the judge's were swayed by that frenzy ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 08:18:15 AM
Not sure what point you're trying to make Carana. Even if there was a media frenzy in 2004/2005, and evidence of this has yet to be posted, are you saying the judge's were swayed by that frenzy ?

The judges in the cipriano case were in a very difficult position. Several serving police officers had claimed that both the ciprianos had voluntarily confessed. A not guilty verdict would be calling a whole group of PJ officers liars...pervertors of course of justice...torturers...when they had little evidence at the time to make this call.
later all those accusations turned out to be true

it make you question the Portuguese justice system...even though it was proved at  a later date that the pj officers involved were a bunch of lying torturers the conviction was allowed to stand
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 08:31:26 AM
The judges in the cipriano case were in a very difficult position. Several serving police officers had claimed that both the ciprianos had voluntarily confessed. A not guilty verdict would be calling a whole group of PJ officers liars...pervertors of course of justice...torturers...when they had little evidence at the time to make this call.
later all those accusations turned out to be true

it make you question the Portuguese justice system...even though it was proved at  a later date that the pj officers involved were a bunch of lying torturers the conviction was allowed to stand

So yet again accusations fly.

Now which officers carried out torture dave ?

Bearing in mind, it is based on the 'evidence' of the convicted liar and murderer Cipriano.

and of course you are only interested in the Cipriano case, because of Amaral.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: ferryman on July 12, 2015, 08:43:57 AM
The judges in the cipriano case were in a very difficult position. Several serving police officers had claimed that both the ciprianos had voluntarily confessed. A not guilty verdict would be calling a whole group of PJ officers liars...pervertors of course of justice...torturers...when they had little evidence at the time to make this call.
later all those accusations turned out to be true

it make you question the Portuguese justice system...even though it was proved at  a later date that the pj officers involved were a bunch of lying torturers the conviction was allowed to stand

That is the most alarming aspect of the whole Cipriano conviction, that and the fact that Leonor's sentence was actually prolonged slightly because she was (later) deemed not to have got her story entirely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness with a bag over her head ...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 08:47:01 AM
That is the most alarming aspect of the whole Cipriano conviction, that and the fact that Leonor's sentence was actually prolonged slightly because she was (later) deemed not to have got her story entirely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness with a bag over her head ...

Ah the support of a murderer again.

Now which officers 'tortured' her ferryman ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 09:13:40 AM
That is the most alarming aspect of the whole Cipriano conviction, that and the fact that Leonor's sentence was actually prolonged slightly because she was (later) deemed not to have got her story entirely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness with a bag over her head ...
It's also odd that despite the fact that the judge found that she had been tortured no one faced prosecution for this offence  and consequently no McCann sceptic will accept that she was tortured.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:14:48 AM
I don't find that "common experience" that children normally get home safely is evidence that this particular child did.

There obviously ARE cases in which abused children have been the subject of investigations into false abduction scenarios. I'm aware of that. However, in this case, I can't see anything to support that this was the case.

There is simply no significant evidence to support what is alleged to have happened to this child.

On the other hand, there IS evidence that the media turned against the Ciprianos once the Faro boys arrived in Portimão.

Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point. 
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 09:20:11 AM
It's also odd that despite the fact that the judge found that she had been tortured no one faced prosecution for this offence  and consequently no McCann sceptic will accept that she was tortured.

The Portuguese court accepted she was tortured......that's what matters
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:21:50 AM
That is the most alarming aspect of the whole Cipriano conviction, that and the fact that Leonor's sentence was actually prolonged slightly because she was (later) deemed not to have got her story entirely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness with a bag over her head ...

Wrong...she got the longer sentence because she initially claimed to have killed her daughter whilst also declaring that her brother João was merely an accessory after the fact.  She and he were convicted on this basis.

The later revelation by Leonor Cipriano which she claimed was the whole truth and attempted to wipe the slate clean was not acted on.  This reveal claimed that it was João who had the brainwave to get rich by selling the girl to some foreigners but that the handover went wrong and the unfortunate girl ended up dead.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 09:22:53 AM
Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

What's your opinion on the torture
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 09:23:43 AM
Wrong...she got the longer sentence because she initially claimed to have killed her daughter whilst also declaring that her brother João was merely an accessory after the fact.
Was this a claim made under torture?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 09:26:34 AM
Not sure what point you're trying to make Carana. Even if there was a media frenzy in 2004/2005, and evidence of this has yet to be posted, are you saying the judge's were swayed by that frenzy ?

There was indeed a media frenzy (though possibly not quite to the extent of the Madeleine case). They were nearly lynched when taken to court to be charged.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3030.0

There was very little balanced reporting on the case - even during the trial, you'd be hard put to find a mention of the numerous testimonies that were neutral to positive about Leonor.

I don't know whether the judges were swayed or not.

When you have a judge saying that a rule of common experience is that children seen walking towards home do get back home, therefore it is considered proven that she did, and the fact that the entire court case, cramming in 40+ witness testimonies in just 3 days, based on the flimsiest of evidence, makes me wonder...

They may well have been and possibly also by the "experts" giving evidence. It seems quite complex, however, possibly in part due to the nature of the legal system. There doesn't appear to be any cross-examination (or at least not of the robust kind that many of us would expect). It simply wouldn't even have gone to trial in the UK.

There were no defence expert witnesses; the defence counsel doesn't even seem to have organised an independent psychiatric evaluation. There was a series of "we policemen, experts" statements on the forensics, none of which were challenged. Some of the so-called damning evidence was just plain silly, but was accepted as proven, because there was no counter expertise by the defence. The Algarve PJ didn't have a clue about forensics in 2007, so I really doubt that they were any more enlightened several years previously.

The defence lawyers assumed that the case would be thrown out due to a lack of evidence... but they hadn't counted on the judge ruling that the "reconstruction" was admissible.

João had signed on the dotted line... so that was it. He couldn't then stand up to say he was coerced into it as the lawyers had already advised them not to take the stand (presumably to avoid their prior "confessions" from being read in court).

Leandro stated in an interview back in 2006 that he and others had been beaten; he also said that João was acting strangely on the day of the reconstruction. His mother also said that the Faro lot were rough. There is no doubt that Leonor was battered in PJ custody.

I find it entirely possible that João had been beaten or threatened into making that video.

João Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhão prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie (...)"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106091#msg106091

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: ferryman on July 12, 2015, 09:27:04 AM
Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

Are these facts?

Or are these points made in Cristavio's (sp?) book?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:31:31 AM
Was this a claim made under torture?

Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 09:33:00 AM
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

That isn't true..... Could you supply a source for that claim
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:40:23 AM
That isn't true..... Could you supply a source for that claim

Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing João on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2015, 09:45:18 AM
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

How strange that she apparently calmly confessed to the major crime of murder to the nice policemen - but then for some inexplicable reason would not say where the body was - even after the most brutal torture. 

There can only be one reason for that IMO -  which is because she didn't know,  because she didn't murder her daughter - and all the torturing in the world could not change that.

IMO It's nonsense to suggest that she would subject herself to such horrendous torture, once she had confessed to murder.   



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 09:51:13 AM
To make John's life easier... I'm taking my post over here.

Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

Yes, she was seen walking towards home. And?

The child had been to a birthday party that day and may have been dressed up. The mother put out a poster mentioning shoes of whatever colour, let's say red. A pair of red shoes are later found in the home (quite some time after she disappeared). A single prosecution witness (who didn't even live there) stated that none of her shoes were missing. No one challenged her as to how she could have known how many pairs of shoes, flipflops, or whatever she had. Unless I've missed it (in which case, I stand corrected), no one asked the people at the party what shoes she was wearing. To double-check, but I'm not sure that the shop lady or the witness who saw her walking towards home noticed her footwear. No one asked Leandro about her shoes. If she liked that colour, did she have more than one pair?

It's entirely feasible that the child had simply gone off on her errand wearing flipflops and her mother hadn't noticed that she wasn't wearing the shoes that she assumed she had been wearing.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 09:52:03 AM
Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing João on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?


You claim it's true but cannot supply a source. As far as I remember this has been discussed before and is NOT true
Can you supply a source or is this statement just a myth

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 09:53:09 AM
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.
So what is the evidence against her confession then?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:56:27 AM
How strange that she apparently calmly confessed to the major crime of murder to the nice policemen - but then for some inexplicable reason would not say where the body was - even after the most brutal torture. 

There can only be one reason for that IMO -  which is because she didn't know,  because she didn't murder her daughter - and all the torturing in the world could not change that.

IMO It's nonsense to suggest that she would subject herself to such horrendous torture, once she had confessed to murder.   

It really is very simple.  She claimed she had shaken Joana and accidentally hit her head against a wall.  She also claimed that it was João who took the girls remains out the back door, this being the same João who spent a week taking the PJ around various locations where he claimed the remains were buried.

You misunderstand the reason for the beating Benice.   The reason for the interrogation and unfortunate beating was to find the missing girl, not to extract a confession.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 09:57:14 AM
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

This alleged initial confession (to a lesser charge) took place before the black and blue bashing session, yes. However, Leandro did state that she'd said she'd been beaten into it. In court he was asked if he'd noticed any bruising on her face or arms at that time, to which he replied that he hadn't.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:59:39 AM

You claim it's true but cannot supply a source. As far as I remember this has been discussed before and is NOT true
Can you supply a source or is this statement just a myth

It was all reported at the time, do read up on it.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:00:32 AM
Are these facts?

Or are these points made in Cristavio's (sp?) book?

I don't know if that was in his book or not as I've only read a summary of it in English. However, there was indeed a witness who stated that shoes of that colour had been found at home.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 10:02:36 AM
This alleged initial confession (to a lesser charge) took place before the black and blue bashing session, yes. However, Leandro did state that she'd said she'd been beaten into it. In court he was asked if he'd noticed any bruising on her face or arms at that time, to which he replied that he hadn't.

The confession, the retraction and the attempts to incriminate her brother speak volumes as to the sort of woman we are dealing with when it comes to Leonor Cipriano.  Her lies got her a further perjury conviction which says it all.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 10:05:51 AM
I don't know if that was in his book or not as I've only read a summary of it in English. However, there was indeed a witness who stated that shoes of that colour had been found at home.

Joana's aunt was taken to the family home by the PJ and she identified the shoes which the poor girl normally wore out. If I recall correctly they were found under the settee and had specks of human blood on them.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:08:04 AM
Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing João on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?

I haven't found anything to suggest a history of physical abuse.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:10:43 AM
The confession, the retraction and the attempts to incriminate her brother speak volumes as to the sort of woman we are dealing with when it comes to Leonor Cipriano.  Her lies got her a further perjury conviction which says it all.

They both incriminated the other. To me, that smacks of potential police psychological manipulation.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 10:25:10 AM
They both incriminated the other. To me, that smacks of potential police psychological manipulation.

...or they are both as guilty as each other.    8((()*/
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 10:25:55 AM
I haven't found anything to suggest a history of physical abuse.

Neglect and abandonment.  It was only in the latter stages of her short life that things began to improve for Joana, when Leandro became involved as step father.  Prior to that social services and the schools were involved in attempts to improve Joana's lot.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:32:45 AM
Joana's aunt was taken to the family home by the PJ and she identified the shoes which the poor girl normally wore out. If I recall correctly they were found under the settee and had specks of human blood on them.


A testemunha BB1 , irmã do II, disse que no domingo, por volta da meia-noite, a mãe referiu-lhe que o II tinha telefonado a saber se a CC estava lá em casa. Declarou a testemunha que a CC tinha estado lá em casa desde 5ª feira até domingo e que era para só ir para casa na 2ª feira, mas como a mãe tinha ido à festa de anos, convenceu-a a ir mais cedo, dizendo que podiam ir ao festival do berbigão e que também lá estava o tio. Saíram por volta das 18h. Na 2ª feira de manhã (dia 13), por volta das 14h, a testemunha foi ver a BB. Em casa estavam também o AA e o II. Nessa altura a BB referiu-lhe como é que a CC estava vestida e calçada quando desapareceu. Mais tarde, a testemunha deparou com os sapatos que a BB tinha dito que a CC tinha calçados e confrontou a BB com isso, tendo ela respondido que então a CC devia ter trocado de sapatos e que tinha levado as chinelas. Porém, posteriormente, a testemunha encontrou uma das chinelas debaixo do sofá da sala e a outra chinela no quarto. Procurou o calçado da CC e encontrou em casa todos os sapatos, sandálias e chinelas que ela usava nesse Verão.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:35:13 AM
...or they are both as guilty as each other.    8((()*/

One or the other may be guilty... I've no idea. I can only go by the so-called evidence (or rather the lack of it).
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:45:39 AM
Neglect and abandonment.  It was only in the latter stages of her short life that things began to improve for Joana, when Leandro became involved as step father.  Prior to that social services and the schools were involved in attempts to improve Joana's lot.

Someone (unidentified) did appear to have called social services who went around and found nothing wrong. They admonished the mother for letting the kids eat crackers while waiting for her to cook lunch and archived the case.

The school teacher said she didn't show any signs of mistreatment, except that she sometimes turned up unsuitably dressed for the weather.


ETA: There's this:

The witness SS, psychologist working at the Protection of Minors Commission of Portimão affirmed that the Commission received a Process of Promotion and Protection of minors which as then sent to the Protection of Minors Commission of Lagoa, where it was referred the fact that CC [Joana Cipriano] was given by the mother to an elderly couple, who were alcoholic and had other problems. Meanwhile the mother had picked her up and they now lived in the Portimão area. At that time the mother said that she had left CC with that couple, just for two or three weeks, so that she wouldn’t miss school while she[BB] arranged her school transference. Later on they [the Protection of Minors Commission] received a report from the school describing negligence at the alimentation and hygienic level. In the sequence of that report, in April or May 2004 the witness made a domiciliary visit to CC’s mother house and verified that BB [Leonor Cipriano] was making lunch and that there were clothes put to dry. She went to the school and the teacher told her there were rumours that CC worked too much at home, but that she never saw anything, and that CC was an average student. They spoke with neighbours who said that they saw CC playing. They spoke with CC, who told them that she enjoyed helping her mother with her brothers, And they decided to archive the process.


Was this couple her parents? If so, she left her with them for a couple of weeks while they moved and so she could finish the school year.

Sounds to me like she wanted a better future for her, if anything...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 10:54:14 AM
I'm trying to find any indication that anything had been sent to the INML for DNA analysis. Genuine query.
The PJ forensic unit would have been able to distinguish human blood from animal blood or semen from saliva (although they got that wrong on a subsequent case)... but did anything get sent to the INML?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Davel on July 12, 2015, 02:28:24 PM
I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 03:15:20 PM
I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent

Absolute bull Dave.  No matter which Leonor story one chooses to believe it was João who disposed of Joana's remains so not at all surprising that Leonor herself could not identify that location.   As for innocent, that is definitely something she is not.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 06:46:15 PM
Absolute bull Dave.  No matter which Leonor story one chooses to believe it was João who disposed of Joana's remains so not at all surprising that Leonor herself could not identify that location.   As for innocent, that is definitely something she is not.

If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 07:02:16 PM
If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?

A few things including both his and Leonor's statements but the most damning evidence of his involvement was his attempts to find the child's remains after he supposedly disposed of her.

Tell me Carana, what sane, innocent person takes police out to find a body if they are completely innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and don't even try the coercion card because frankly, it is tiresome.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 12, 2015, 07:37:05 PM
Joao knew the area well as he had worked there in construction.
If he had hidden Joana, why would he lie?

Joao did not know where the body of Joana was. Simply because I don’t believe that he ever moved her body in the first place.
 
All the places that he may have indicated and was taken to search, was  a guise to stop the threats and punishment he was probably receiving, if only for a short while.

 You don’t honestly believe that he was treated any differently to Leonor, whilst being interrogated……Do you?

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 01:12:38 AM
I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent

The courts dont agree with you
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 01:18:11 AM
I'm trying to find any indication that anything had been sent to the INML for DNA analysis. Genuine query.
The PJ forensic unit would have been able to distinguish human blood from animal blood or semen from saliva (although they got that wrong on a subsequent case)... but did anything get sent to the INML?

Human blood found in the freezer was sent to the police science labs, so I see no reason why the blood found on the walls, on the floor, on the mop and bucket, on Silvas trainers  and wherever else (I dont recall the full list) would not have been sent there too.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 01:27:36 AM
If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?

circumstantial most of it

Violent personality

He did go to prison for attempted murder IIRC

Whether he would callously kill his own kin for whatever reason is another matter and one which we can know nothing about ultimately



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 10:32:05 AM
A few things including both his and Leonor's statements but the most damning evidence of his involvement was his attempts to find the child's remains after he supposedly disposed of her.

Tell me Carana, what sane, innocent person takes police out to find a body if they are completely innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and don't even try the coercion card because frankly, it is tiresome.

Someone who is cunning and takes sadistic pleasure in taunting the PJ? But according to Leandro, João was fond of his niece and his IQ doesn't appear to have been high enough to outsmart them.

Someone who is guilty but was so drunk or high that they couldn't remember? No one noticed anything odd about him that night. The upstairs neighbour didn't hear any unusual noises...

Someone who is guilty, but expects a lower sentence through cooperating? I doubt that the PJ didn't try that one.

Or someone who is innocent, but terrified of the PJ (or the threat of being accidentally-on-purpose left to the mercy of fellow inmates). He wasn't the only person the PJ came to get to take them to wherever their latest idea was.


Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
The guy couldn't even work out how to get the chopped doll into the tiny freezer. Leandro said it was hard going fitting two chickens in it. Either João was told, or it suddenly dawned on him, to take out the drawers and then it would just about be squashed inside. Leandro had no idea when his saw disappeared - he only noticed it was missing when the PJ asked him if he had one and was told to fetch it, but couldn't find it. And there weren't any any big knives in the house. Neither Leandro nor "MM" (the half-brother / friend) saw anything unusual, no mess, nor any sign of a clean-up when they went back to the house.

The PJ didn't even come to wave a black torch around until 22 September (i.e., 10 days after she'd gone missing). Meanwhile two men (plus João for a couple of days), the mother, the other children carried on living there and various relatives popped in and out.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 11:05:05 AM
Someone who is cunning and takes sadistic pleasure in taunting the PJ? But according to Leandro, João was fond of his niece and his IQ doesn't appear to have been high enough to outsmart them.

Someone who is guilty but was so drunk or high that they couldn't remember? No one noticed anything odd about him that night. The upstairs neighbour didn't hear any unusual noises...

Someone who is guilty, but expects a lower sentence through cooperating? I doubt that the PJ didn't try that one.

Or someone who is innocent, but terrified of the PJ (or the threat of being accidentally-on-purpose left to the mercy of fellow inmates). He wasn't the only person the PJ came to get to take them to wherever their latest idea was.
Why does anyone own up to a crime they didn't commit?  It's not that unheard of is it?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 11:17:02 AM
Why does anyone own up to a crime they didn't commit?  It's not that unheard of is it?

According to the Innocence Project's study, 63% of those convicted of murder in the US, later exonerated by DNA, had given false confessions.

I would hope that some of those date back to the "Life on Mars" school and that the percentage would now be considerably lower.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 11:30:26 AM
I'm trying to find the date of this reconstruction. Reading the ruling, it doesn't specify, but would certainly appear to be after the PJ had first waved their black torch around.

My own attempt at an improvement on Googlish (feel free to correct):
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation, said they began investigating the case nine days after the disappearance of CC, as the case was classified as a crime of kidnapping / abduction. He took note of the statements made by the GNR and viewed television interviews and soon wondered about the posture / attitude (?) of the mother, who wore black and appeared to be lying, as she spoke of her daughter in the past tense. They began taking statements and decided to go and examine BB's house . When they arrived they saw that the interior of the house had been washed , and such washing contrasted with the lax state of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house , but they were still able to find blood traces on the floor, the walls, on the bucket and mop and on the soles of some shoes that were in the living-room - the witness confirmed the record of the search and seizure of fls . 173 . When the test results were conclusive in the sense that these were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood , they arrested the defendants , AA having been arrested in Cacela . He also stated that with the help of defendant AA, they proceeded to the findings of fact as stated in pages 273 etc. , the content of which he confirmed as he was present at the diligence . He confirmed that the configuration of the house shown in the plan on p. 294 and the door which gives access to the street has a knob on the outside that allows immediate entry to the residence . He said that following this reconstitution, and following the indications of defendant AA, they searched extensively, but unsuccessfully for the child's body at a landfill land and elsewhere in Mexilhoeira Grande, a dump (lixeira?), in Poco Barreto , smashed-up cars in II [Leandro] 's stepfather's scrapyard and in Silves . He confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc.. The witness also confirmed the search and seizure recorded in the file on pp . 578-580 ( a freezer ) in which a trace of human blood was collected, pointing out that this trace of human blood was collected inside the drawer , to be precise, on the back panel of the freezer's second drawer.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173. Quando o resultado dos exames foi conclusivo no sentido de que esses vestígios eram de sangue humano e mistura de sangue humano e animal, detiveram os arguidos, tendo o AA sido detido em Cacela. Declarou também que com o auxílio do arguido AA procederam à reconstituição dos factos como consta do auto de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou pois que esteve presente na diligência. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Disse ainda que na sequência desta reconstituição, e seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo da menor num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, nos carros acidentados existentes na sucata do padrasto do II e em Silves, locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss. A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 13, 2015, 12:03:03 PM
I'm trying to find the date of this reconstruction. Reading the ruling, it doesn't specify, but would certainly appear to be after the PJ had first waved their black torch around.

My own attempt at an improvement on Googlish (feel free to correct):
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation, said they began investigating the case nine days after the disappearance of CC, as the case was classified as a crime of kidnapping / abduction. He took note of the statements made by the GNR and viewed television interviews and soon wondered about the posture / attitude (?) of the mother, who wore black and appeared to be lying, as she spoke of her daughter in the past tense. They began taking statements and decided to go and examine BB's house . When they arrived they saw that the interior of the house had been washed , and such washing contrasted with the lax state of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house , but they were still able to find blood traces on the floor, the walls, on the bucket and mop and on the soles of some shoes that were in the living-room - the witness confirmed the record of the search and seizure of fls . 173 . When the test results were conclusive in the sense that these were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood , they arrested the defendants , AA having been arrested in Cacela . He also stated that with the help of defendant AA, they proceeded to the findings of fact as stated in pages 273 etc. , the content of which he confirmed as he was present at the diligence . He confirmed that the configuration of the house shown in the plan on p. 294 and the door which gives access to the street has a knob on the outside that allows immediate entry to the residence . He said that following this reconstitution, and following the indications of defendant AA, they searched extensively, but unsuccessfully for the child's body at a landfill land and elsewhere in Mexilhoeira Grande, a dump (lixeira?), in Poco Barreto , smashed-up cars in II [Leandro] 's stepfather's scrapyard and in Silves . He confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc.. The witness also confirmed the search and seizure recorded in the file on pp . 578-580 ( a freezer ) in which a trace of human blood was collected, pointing out that this trace of human blood was collected inside the drawer , to be precise, on the back panel of the freezer's second drawer.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173. Quando o resultado dos exames foi conclusivo no sentido de que esses vestígios eram de sangue humano e mistura de sangue humano e animal, detiveram os arguidos, tendo o AA sido detido em Cacela. Declarou também que com o auxílio do arguido AA procederam à reconstituição dos factos como consta do auto de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou pois que esteve presente na diligência. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Disse ainda que na sequência desta reconstituição, e seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo da menor num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, nos carros acidentados existentes na sucata do padrasto do II e em Silves, locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss. A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

Date of recon Carana.


This version, counted yesterday to DN by what he heard from the mouth of the stepfather of joana, eventually counteract the content of the reconstitution of the alleged crime, made last Saturday 25th by uncle of joana, John Cyprian, held in preventive detention.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 12:05:21 PM

Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

(Joana Morais / Astro translation)
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] * Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.


* MM was Leandro's half-brother /friend who lived with them. Leandro is II in the ruling.

---

Then there's this passage in the SC ruling, refuting the defence's legal arguments, seemingly. I can only get the gist of it and it might have made more sense if the forensic report were available.

My (possibly flawed) understanding of that is that the the lawyers were arguing that there was a contradiction concernng the results of the black torch and the blood found. I'm not sure what contradiction this was, but clearly a black torch will make substances other than blood fluoresce - and there does indeed appear to have been traces of human and a mixture of human and animal blood somewhere in those areas. The argument may have been that just because an area becomes fluorescent, and a trace of blood is found somewhere within the area, it doesn't mean that the entire area was blood (which would seem to make sense), nor was it necessarily hers as the DNA profiles couldn't be established.

The SC logic appears to be that as the area had been cleaned (there is no evidence that this was the case, aside from of the "we, experts" variety who eventually turned up 10 days after the event in a home in which numerous people continued to live as it hadn't been sealed off), the DNA couldn't be identified. There was other evidence that it was hers (such as...?) and anyway the lab hadn't proven that it couldn't have been hers.

Hmmm.


E.VII. Inexistiu igualmente qualquer contradição insanável na motivação decorrente de não se terem entendido como sendo da malograda CC os vestígios recolhidos através da técnica da projectina e o entendimento de serem seus os vestígios de sangue humano colhidos na casa onde decorreram os factos, ou entre esta conclusão e a de que, por acção de limpezas efectuadas pela arguida BB, não ter sido possível apurar o ADN de tal sangue.
Isto porque foi através de muitos outros elementos de prova que se concluiu por ser sangue da menor aquele que foi colhido na casa, em nada se relacionando esses vestígios hemáticos com os colhidos pela técnica da projectina (que faz surgir outros fluidos corporais).

Sendo ainda que apenas poderia existir a alegada contradição caso existissem, por sua vez, elementos laboratoriais que afastassem a possibilidade de o sangue pertencer à vítima, o que não sucedeu.
Não existem, assim, quaisquer factos contraditórios dados como provados quanto a esta matéria.


Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 12:09:44 PM
Date of recon Carana.


This version, counted yesterday to DN by what he heard from the mouth of the stepfather of joana, eventually counteract the content of the reconstitution of the alleged crime, made last Saturday 25th by uncle of joana, John Cyprian, held in preventive detention.

Thanks Anna, do you have a link to the original?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 12:15:54 PM
Sorry, haven't replied to the above posts but will do so shortly, however, consider the following.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, realistically, there can only be a couple of possibilities in this case.  Joana didn't run off with the groceries so we are left with foul play.

The original admission by Leonor was that she assaulted daughter Joana and she succumbed to a head injury.  This is very possible and is supported by the attempt to wash the kitchen walls and the unidentified miniscule specks of human blood found thereon.  Leonor further claimed that she asked her brother João to take the child's body out the back and hide it meantime in some wasteland.  João for his part never denied this story and still doesn't as far as I am aware.  Various other scenarios for disposal of her body were investigated including searches of a canal bank nearby, searches of various dumps including a scrapyard belonging to another member of the extended family.  It was even suggested that the girls remains were put in a car which was sent off for crushing.  Regardless of all these, not a single trace has ever been found of Joana.

Prior to her appeal against conviction, Leonor made a written declaration to the court in which she stated that she wanted to come clean and tell the truth at last.  By doing so she admitted to having lied to police and committed perjury, she was subsequently prosecuted for having lied to the Court.

In this declaration, Leonor stated that the assault story was a fabrication by her and João, that the truth was that they had hatched a plan to sell Joana to some foreigners (Germans I believe) and that to this end João had taken the girl up into the hills and to an old ruin where the exchange was supposed to have taken place. According to Leonor, the deal somehow went wrong and Joana ended up dead.  This according to Leonor was what João told her.

Could it be that the child trafficking story was true and that the deal was successfully achieved?

Is it possible that João told Leonor a lie about Joana's fate?

Is that why although João went along with the original story, he has NEVER been able to find remains?

Did João do the dirty on his own sister?


(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2015-04/img_757x426$2015_04_10_01_30_30_445844.jpg)

                      João Cipriano, uncle of the missing child, escorted into Court.   Inset: Missing youngster Joana Cipriano.


(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2013-04/img_757x426$2013_04_02_15_21_00_242183.jpg)

                                                                  Mother of the missing child, Leonor Cipriano arrives at Court.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 12:54:37 PM
Sorry, haven't replied to the above posts but will do so shortly, however, consider the following.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, realistically, there can only be a couple of possibilities in this case.  Joana didn't run off with the groceries so we are left with foul play.

The original admission by Leonor was that she assaulted daughter Joana and she succumbed to a head injury.  This is very possible and is supported by the attempt to wash the kitchen walls and the unidentified miniscule specks of human blood found thereon.  Leonor further claimed that she asked her brother João to take the child's body out the back and hide it meantime in some wasteland.  João for his part never denied this story and still doesn't as far as I am aware.  Various other scenarios for disposal of her body were investigated including searches of a canal bank nearby, searches of various dumps including a scrapyard belonging to another member of the extended family.  It was even suggested that the girls remains were put in a car which was sent off for crushing.  Regardless of all these, not a single trace has ever been found of Joana.

Prior to her appeal against conviction, Leonor made a written declaration to the court in which she stated that she wanted to come clean and tell the truth at last.  By doing so she admitted to having lied to police and committed perjury, she was subsequently prosecuted for having lied to the Court.

In this declaration, Leonor stated that the assault story was a fabrication by her and João, that the truth was that they had hatched a plan to sell Joana to some foreigners (Germans I believe) and that to this end João had taken the girl up into the hills and to an old ruin where the exchange was supposed to have taken place. According to Leonor, the deal somehow went wrong and Joana ended up dead.  This according to Leonor was what João told her.

Could it be that the child trafficking story was true and that the deal was successfully achieved?

Is it possible that João told Leonor a lie about Joana's fate?

Is that why although João went along with the original story, he has NEVER been able to find remains?

Did João do the dirty on his own sister?


(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2015-04/img_757x426$2015_04_10_01_30_30_445844.jpg)

                                        João Cipriano escorted into Court.   Inset: Missing youngster Joana Cipriano.


(http://cdn.cmjornal.xl.pt/2013-04/img_757x426$2013_04_02_15_21_00_242183.jpg)

                                                                Mother of the missing child, Leonor Cipriano arrives at Court.


It would takes ages to quote every point to reply. A few points for the moment...

- Cleaning the walls: neither Leandro nor MM noticed anything unusual that evening... no mess, no signs of sudden cleaning. There is no evidence that any form of sophisticated crime scene analysis beyond a black torch, a test to distinguish between humand and animal blood, and some form of unsuccessful attempt to establish DNA. The first CSI manual wasn't even launched until 2009, so I doubt that we're into the realms of sophisticated blood spatter analysis or any means of testing for deliberate cleaning.

- Aside from beatings, you and a sibling are held separately in custody. The PJ come to you and say that we know that your sibling actually did this and you were merely an accessory. Just admit to it and you'll get a lighter sentence. And try the other tactic, your sibling has stated that you were the perp and that he/she was merely an accessory.

You're exhausted, possibly beaten, confused, a poor peasant caught up in a nightmare, and you have no idea what is really going on. And you're fuming that your sibling has apparently falsely accused you of something dreadful that you hadn't done. And you're not that close anyway, so you've no idea whether they really have or not.

- When did this "come clean" issue first arise?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 13, 2015, 02:30:31 PM
Thanks Anna, do you have a link to the original?



Sorry for delay carana, I have visitors. Will this do?

29 sep 2004 CM wed

with the authorities provided that, at the time of reconstitution of crime (on Saturday), if his countenance fell to confess their participation in assaults on the child.
Due to these declarations, the man returned to be arrested, having appeared then in the reconstitution of murder (the house where they will be given the crime) its proponent officious, Sara Rosado. After a conversation with the lawyer John Cyprian have opted for silence.
The CM has succeeded yesterday contact the advocate of the alleged co-author of the murder of the young girl, which however also mentioned the secret of Justice not to make any statements. The same argument outside, incidentally, used the day before by John sheffield Pacheco, defender officiously of mother of joananna.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-de-joana-recebe-assistencia-no-hospital-de-faro
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 04:23:02 PM
- When did this "come clean" issue first arise?

Leonor Cipriano makes a new statement about the killing of Joana.
16 January 2009

Leonor Cipriano, mother of the seven-year-old girl missing from the village of Figueira, Portimão on the 12 September 2004, decided to reveal how her daughter was killed by her uncle João (John) Cipriano.

According to the witness, João Cipriano, convinced his sister Leonor to deliver her daughter to the care of persons outside the family, in exchange for a monetary amount.  The delivery did not go as planned, and resulted in the murder of Joana by her uncle.

(http://i.imgur.com/bp50zgj.jpg?2)

Leonor Cipriano appeals for information about her daughter Joana after her disappearance.

The witnesses statement, documented and signed by Leonor, who is serving time for murder and concealment of the body of her daughter in Beja prison, was delivered this Friday to the Court of Faro, her lawyer Marcos Aragão Correia reported to the CM.

This afternoon, Marcos Aragão Correia, accompanied by the stepfather of Joana, Leandro da Silva, will make a statement at the door of the Court of Faro.

This is not the first time that Leonor's brother has been accused of killing her daughter.  During investigations, Joana's mother told the inspectors of the Judicial Police (PJ) that the girl's death would have resulted from a slap given by João Cipriano.  But during the trial, Leonor changed version, denying the accusation.

Marcos Aragão Correia defends Leonor in the case of the alleged assaults that claims to have been the target by PJ inspectors, whose trial resumes this Friday at the Court of Faro.

www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/leonor-acusa-joao-cipriano-de-matar-joana


www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 05:16:21 PM
Thanks John, but that trial was years after the Supreme Court ruling on the murder case. And what I'm questioning is the logic of the SC ruling (on here and on the other thread).

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 05:23:44 PM


Sorry for delay carana, I have visitors. Will this do?

29 sep 2004 CM wed

with the authorities provided that, at the time of reconstitution of crime (on Saturday), if his countenance fell to confess their participation in assaults on the child.
Due to these declarations, the man returned to be arrested, having appeared then in the reconstitution of murder (the house where they will be given the crime) its proponent officious, Sara Rosado. After a conversation with the lawyer John Cyprian have opted for silence.
The CM has succeeded yesterday contact the advocate of the alleged co-author of the murder of the young girl, which however also mentioned the secret of Justice not to make any statements. The same argument outside, incidentally, used the day before by John sheffield Pacheco, defender officiously of mother of joananna.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-de-joana-recebe-assistencia-no-hospital-de-faro

Hi Anna. Thanks, but the date of this recon still isn't clear to me. The link is dead, but the title refers to her being taken to Faro hospital (which never happened, but never mind). She WAS taken the the Odemira infirmary, but that was in October.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 05:32:06 PM
Ahhh. I think I've found a reliable source as to the date (Helena Machado).


7 October 04 - reconstruction
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf

Then...

15 Oct (a Friday) - Cadroso & another (unidentified) PJ officer take Leonor to Odemira prison's health centre at around 6 am (not clear but presumably time of arrival), where certain injuries were noted. She went back to prison at around 7 am.

18. Cerca das 6.00 horas da manhã do dia 15, o arguido António Fernando Nunes Cardoso e outro agente da Polícia Judiciária cuja identidade não foi possível apurar, que conduziam a Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano ao Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira, apresentaram-na no Centro de Saúde
Processo no 1503/04.3TAFAR 8
de Odemira onde, consultada pelo médico de serviço, este constatou que ela “apresentava edema traumático e hematomas já organizados e atingindo toda a área facial-frontal e temporal direita, edema palpebral grande, que lhe ocasiona o fecho total á direita”;


SC -ruling.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 13, 2015, 05:45:25 PM
Hi Anna. Thanks, but the date of this recon still isn't clear to me. The link is dead, but the title refers to her being taken to Faro hospital (which never happened, but never mind). She WAS taken the the Odemira infirmary, but that was in October.

A lot of the articles have been deleted for some reason.
Leonor did go the hospital in sept before the time in October and a reconstruct of questioning neighbours in figueira did happen in early October. However the butchering video was in September and Leonor also went to hospital around that time whilst being interrogated. It was dismissed as monthly ailment.

29 sep 2004 CM wed

The mother of joana, Leonor Cipriano, will have already been assisted twice District Hospital of Faro (HDF), provided that, on Saturday 24.25, it was decreed to preventive detention, second found the CM from hospital sources.

The woman, accused of killing her own daughter and is now awaiting trial in Prison of Odemira, presented complaints of stomach pains. The clinical director of HDF and the Prison Services only confirm, however, a trip to the hospital.
According to hospital sources, Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, 33 years of age, was conducted to the HDF in monday 27th and again yesterday. The woman would submit complaints of "strong pain in the belly" and have been subject to medical examinations to determine the reason of sorrows. On the day of yesterday, Leonor Cipriano have remained under observation at least up to the middle of the afternoon.
For its part, the clinical director of HDF, Larguito Clear, confirms the movement of Leonor Cipriano to hospital on Monday 27th sep, but belies his comeback in day yesterday. According to this responsibility, the mother of joana was assisted on Monday night: "She gave entry by 20h25 and left shortly after".
As part of the Prison Service, the information transmitted to the CM was similar to the clinical director of HDF, i.e. the mother of joana was only conducted at the hospital on Monday, after having said that she felt bad. After being assisted, the woman returned to the prison of Odemira, where she is to be accompanied by a doctor.
Leonor Cipriano is under detention since last Saturday, by determination of the judge of the criminal Court of instruction Portimao Ana Soares.

The woman is awaiting trial in Prison of Odemira - the only female prison existing in the South of the Country -, under special security measures, being avoided in particular the contact with the other female inmates. The care taken by Prison Services result from the fact that in prisons who practice crimes against children are accustomed be poorly received by other inmates.
UNCLE CHOOSES THE MUTE
The uncle of joana, John Cyprian, will have passed to adopt a cautious stance and nothing cooperative with the authorities provided that, at the time of reconstitution of crime (on Saturday), if his countenance fell to confess their participation in assaults on the child.
Due to these declarations, the man returned to be arrested, having appeared then in the reconstitution of murder (the house where they will be given the crime) its proponent officious, Sara Rosado. After a conversation with the lawyer John Cyprian have opted for silence.
The CM has succeeded yesterday contact the advocate of the alleged co-author of the murder of the young girl, which however also mentioned the secret of Justice not to make any statements. The same argument outside, incidentally, used the day before by John sheffield Pacheco, defender officiously of mother of joananna.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-de-joana-recebe-assistencia-no-hospital-de-faro
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 05:47:17 PM
That's what I was wondering about... this "reconstruction" happened weeks after waving a black torch around.

So... let's see.

A) Someone spontaneously confesses and you go to check whether there is any evidence to corroborate whether there is any substance to it

or

B)  You flash a black torch, note fluorescent patches, including by a light switch, find the odd speck of unidentifiable and undated blood, decide on a theoretical scenario,  and then by total coincidence your prime suspect spontaneously confesses while being treated to coffee and biscuits.

Hmmm.

Personally, I'd have had a bit more confidence in A.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 05:48:27 PM
Thanks John, but that trial was years after the Supreme Court ruling on the murder case. And what I'm questioning is the logic of the SC ruling (on here and on the other thread).

I thought you wanted to know what Leonor was now claiming since you appear to believe her innocent of something?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 05:49:15 PM
A lot of the articles have been deleted for some reason.
Leonor did go the hospital in sept before the time in October and a reconstruct of questioning neighbours in figueira did happen in early October. However the butchering video was in September and Leonor also went to hospital around that time whilst being interrogated. It was dismissed as monthly ailment.

29 sep 2004 CM wed

The mother of joana, Leonor Cipriano, will have already been assisted twice District Hospital of Faro (HDF), provided that, on Saturday 24.25, it was decreed to preventive detention, second found the CM from hospital sources.

The woman, accused of killing her own daughter and is now awaiting trial in Prison of Odemira, presented complaints of stomach pains. The clinical director of HDF and the Prison Services only confirm, however, a trip to the hospital.
According to hospital sources, Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, 33 years of age, was conducted to the HDF in monday 27th and again yesterday. The woman would submit complaints of "strong pain in the belly" and have been subject to medical examinations to determine the reason of sorrows. On the day of yesterday, Leonor Cipriano have remained under observation at least up to the middle of the afternoon.
For its part, the clinical director of HDF, Larguito Clear, confirms the movement of Leonor Cipriano to hospital on Monday 27th sep, but belies his comeback in day yesterday. According to this responsibility, the mother of joana was assisted on Monday night: "She gave entry by 20h25 and left shortly after".
As part of the Prison Service, the information transmitted to the CM was similar to the clinical director of HDF, i.e. the mother of joana was only conducted at the hospital on Monday, after having said that she felt bad. After being assisted, the woman returned to the prison of Odemira, where she is to be accompanied by a doctor.
Leonor Cipriano is under detention since last Saturday, by determination of the judge of the criminal Court of instruction Portimao Ana Soares.

The woman is awaiting trial in Prison of Odemira - the only female prison existing in the South of the Country -, under special security measures, being avoided in particular the contact with the other female inmates. The care taken by Prison Services result from the fact that in prisons who practice crimes against children are accustomed be poorly received by other inmates.
UNCLE CHOOSES THE MUTE
The uncle of joana, John Cyprian, will have passed to adopt a cautious stance and nothing cooperative with the authorities provided that, at the time of reconstitution of crime (on Saturday), if his countenance fell to confess their participation in assaults on the child.
Due to these declarations, the man returned to be arrested, having appeared then in the reconstitution of murder (the house where they will be given the crime) its proponent officious, Sara Rosado. After a conversation with the lawyer John Cyprian have opted for silence.
The CM has succeeded yesterday contact the advocate of the alleged co-author of the murder of the young girl, which however also mentioned the secret of Justice not to make any statements. The same argument outside, incidentally, used the day before by John sheffield Pacheco, defender officiously of mother of joananna.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-de-joana-recebe-assistencia-no-hospital-de-faro

That's interesting, Anna. Was she taken to Faro hospital in September before the slippery PJ stairs in October, then?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 06:02:27 PM
I thought you wanted to know what Leonor was now claiming since you appear to believe her innocent of something?

I was originally replying to one of your posts.

I'm not taking much notice of the new (unsubstantiated) "confessions" in the torture trial. I accept that she was tortured while in PJ custody and that she couldn't identify who the officers were. So did the the court and the PJ disciplinary unit way before the trial.

Beyond that, I have doubts... Correia admitted that he'd tricked João into signing a confession note with some strange story that nasty people were going to murder him if he didn't. Or something.

I don't know whether Leonor's confession was spontaneous or whether someone advised her to invent a story in the hope of reducing her sentence to roughly the term she'd already served. As her lawyer, Correia should have known that the court wouldn't accept these new "confessions" anyway, and should have advised her against it, so I've no idea what he was playing at.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 06:04:06 PM
The CdaM link still doesn't work....
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 13, 2015, 06:13:48 PM
That's interesting, Anna. Was she taken to Faro hospital in September before the slippery PJ stairs in October, then?

Yep.
We have discussed it on here already. I will see if I can find it.

How could the press articles(now deleted for some strange reason) have known about the reconstitution in their  29th and 30th sept editions if it hadn't yet happened?

There is an article in DN now that gives that date in October as a date that PJ were going to reconstruct the crime by talking to neighbours/witnesses in the village. There seems to be a bit of confusion there to say the least.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 13, 2015, 06:27:50 PM
That's interesting, Anna. Was she taken to Faro hospital in September before the slippery PJ stairs in October, then?

Link as promised, Carana. ... re Leonor hospital
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.msg123753#msg123753

                                    The links to the articles with the date as "25th sept have all been banished. I will look elsewhere though.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 07:12:43 PM
Link as promised, Carana. ... re Leonor hospital
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.msg123753#msg123753

                                    The links to the articles with the date as "25th sept have all been banished. I will look elsewhere though.

Well done, Anna. For some reason one of the links works, so copying it before it disappears:

30.09.2004 00:00 LEONOR ALEGOU TER SIDO AGREDIDA PELA PJ A mãe de Joana acusou, segunda-feira, os inspectores da Polícia Judiciária (PJ) de a terem coagido fisicamente para obrigá-la a confessar o crime. A versão, forjada pela mulher ao ser surpreendida a sangrar por um dos elementos da Secção Regional de Combate ao Banditismo (SRCB) que a interrogava, levou a que desse entrada cerca das 20h25 no Hospital Distrital de Faro (HDF). Naquela unidade de saúde as hemorragias e dores abdominais provocadas por “alegadas lesões internas” resultantes das ditas agressões policiais de que disse ter sido vítima, foram desmascaradas pelos exames médicos:as manchas de sangue detectadas na cadeira onde se sentara nessa tarde, eram simplesmente vestígios do fluxo menstrual. Um pormenor que escapou na altura ao inspector da PJ que a interrogava, mas foi de imediato aproveitado pela mulher. Bastaram poucos segundos para Leonor engendrar o plano que lhe permitiu ser conduzida ao HDF e escapar por algumas horas à pressão dos interrogatórios a que tem estado sujeita diariamente desde a sua detenção. Submetida a exames médicos a mulher acabaria por ser reconduzida à Directoria da PJ, que prossegue diligências de investigação em várias direcções no sentido de localizar o corpo da pequena Joana. O CM apurou que, quando confrontada pelo inspector quanto à origem das manchas de sangue deixadas na cadeira, Leonor Cipriano começou por simular um mal-estar e dores abdominais, alegadamente resultantes de lesões internas que teriam sido provocadas pela coacção física de que fora vítima por parte dos investigadores no intuito de a fazer falar. “Bateram-me e deram-me socos na barriga para me obrigar a falar”, gritou Leonor Cipriano contorcendo o corpo à frente do atónito inspector. Perante os factos e sem argumentos, o investigador solicitou então que conduzissem a suspeita ao HDF, onde os exames médicos a que foi submetida revelaram a mentira e uma verdade: Leonor Cipriano estava nos “dias difíceis” e não se prevenira para essa eventualidade antes de ser transportada do Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira, onde se encontra sob prisão preventiva, para a PJ de Faro. Um percurso feito diariamente pela detida desde que recolheu à cadeia, no dia 23, por decisão da juíza de instrução criminal do Tribunal de Portimão. Principal suspeita do homicídio da filha, praticado no dia 12 de Setembro, Leonor Cipriano continua a ser interrogada pelos inspectores da SRCB da PJ de Faro que, apesar das intensas buscas realizadas na Figueira e noutros pontos da região, não conseguiram localizar o cadáver da menor. Apesar de confessarem o crime, tanto a mulher como o irmão, João Cipriano, têm ocultado o local onde depositaram o corpo, na tentativa de escaparem a uma condenação. NELSON GARANTE ESTAR INOCENTE Nelson Cipriano, o tio de Joana que fora acusado pelo irmão João de ter facultado o seu carro para transporte do corpo da menina, afirma ter sido já informado que os exames periciais realizados ao veículo pela PJ provam que “não teve qualquer envolvimento no caso, tal como sempre havia dito”. O carro, um Seat Ibiza, de cor branca, foi levado pelos inspectores encarregues do caso Joana no passado domingo, de forma a ser sujeito a rigorosos exames. A PJ terá garantido a Nelson que o automóvel seria devolvido ontem, mas o CM apurou que até ao início da noite isso ainda não tinha acontecido. De acordo com Nelson Cipriano, os resultados irão demonstrar que está completamente inocente em relação a este caso, esperando desta forma que “as pessoas deixem de falar mal nas minhas costas”. Este irmão dos dois suspeitos da morte de Joana confessa que viveu “dias muito complicados”, devido às suspeitas lançadas contra ele por João Cipriano. Nelson revela, por outro lado, que “ainda não consegue acreditar que eles tenham matado a menina”, até porque “o corpo continua sem aparecer”. Apesar de não saber o que se passou, o irmão dos suspeitos inclina-se mais para a possibilidade da sobrinha “ter sido vendida”, adiantando que Leonor (a mãe de Joana) e João (o tio) “nunca tiveram muito dinheiro e talvez tenham cedido à tentação...” O referido familiar salienta que só soube do desaparecimento de Joana três dias depois do sucedido, quando estava no café e viu a notícia sobre a sua sobrinha no Correio da Manhã. Nessa altura, Nelson, que diz ter ficado em estado de choque, dirigiu-se à casa da irmã, na aldeia da Figueira, a qual lhe disse que “a Joana teria sido raptada”.

Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/leonor-alegou-ter-sido-agredida-pela-pj.html
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 07:20:29 PM
Naquela unidade de saúde as hemorragias e dores abdominais provocadas por “alegadas lesões internas” resultantes das ditas agressões policiais de que disse ter sido vítima, foram desmascaradas pelos exames médicos:as manchas de sangue detectadas na cadeira onde se sentara nessa tarde, eram simplesmente vestígios do fluxo menstrual.


Erm... this is CdaM after all. She was taken to hospital complaining of alleged internal lesions due to police conduct, but medical examinations showed that the seat she'd been on simply showed traces of menstrual flow.

Really? Do interrogation chairs normally get taken to hospital for medical analysis?




Note to self: The dates need to be worked out. She was taken to Faro on the Monday (supposedly), but when was the interrogation that led to this initial supposed confession? It's feasible that the pain got progressively worse and was taken a day or two later. Or are the dates wrong in the article?

Where is there any mention of the medical report on that in the ruling?



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
I was originally replying to one of your posts.

I'm not taking much notice of the new (unsubstantiated) "confessions" in the torture trial. I accept that she was tortured while in PJ custody and that she couldn't identify who the officers were. So did the the court and the PJ disciplinary unit way before the trial.

Beyond that, I have doubts... Correia admitted that he'd tricked João into signing a confession note with some strange story that nasty people were going to murder him if he didn't. Or something.

I don't know whether Leonor's confession was spontaneous or whether someone advised her to invent a story in the hope of reducing her sentence to roughly the term she'd already served. As her lawyer, Correia should have known that the court wouldn't accept these new "confessions" anyway, and should have advised her against it, so I've no idea what he was playing at.

I notice you are undecided still as to Leonor's guilt Carana, surely she couldn't possibly be innocent given her various claims and statements?

(https://crimedigoeu.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/joana.jpg)

Shortly after Joana's disappearance Leonor Cipriano pictured with one of her
younger children holds up a poster of the missing girl for the benefit of the Press.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 11:13:28 AM
I notice you are undecided still as to Leonor's guilt Carana, surely she couldn't possibly be innocent given her various claims and statements?

(https://crimedigoeu.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/joana.jpg)

Shortly after Joana's disappearance Leonor Cipriano pictured with one of her
younger children holds up a poster of the missing girl for the benefit of the Press.

When I first heard of the case, I assumed that it was one of these awful child abuse sagas. It wasn't until I started reading more about PJ heavy-handed interrogation techniques that I began to wonder.

The translated parts of the Supreme Court ruling are all the negative bits, but then I stumbled across the original. There were numerous neutral to positive statements, which I hadn't seen before. No one had ever heard her even raise her voice at the child, let alone whack her.

Then, when I had a look at the summary of the forensics and the associated witness statements, I was gobsmacked. There is just nothing indicative of anything more than what would be found in any household.

It's not just that there is room for reasonable doubt, I find it to be the other way around: the possibility that the alleged events actually happened as described isn't even really plausible.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
When I first heard of the case, I assumed that it was one of these awful child abuse sagas. It wasn't until I started reading more about PJ heavy-handed interrogation techniques that I began to wonder.

The translated parts of the Supreme Court ruling are all the negative bits, but then I stumbled across the original. There were numerous neutral to positive statements, which I hadn't seen before. No one had ever heard her even raise her voice at the child, let alone whack her.

Then, when I had a look at the summary of the forensics and the associated witness statements, I was gobsmacked. There just just nothing indicative of anything more than what would be found in any household.

It's not just that there is room for reasonable doubt, I find it to be the other way around: the possibility that the alleged events actually happened as described isn't even really plausible.

So you think Leonor's brother, who previously served a sentence for attempted murder, incapable of hurting the girl?  Could it be that Leonor covered for him in the beginning knowing that should he be convicted of assault again that they might lock him up and throw away the key?

I agree that there is no record of violence by Leonor, just a history of abandonment and neglect of her children.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 12:16:59 PM
So you think Leonor's brother, who previously served a sentence for attempted murder, incapable of hurting the girl?  Could it be that Leonor covered for him in the beginning knowing that should he be convicted of assault again that they might lock him up and throw away the key?

I agree that there is no record of violence by Leonor, just a history of abandonment and neglect of her children.

I'd thought about that possibility, but it doesn't seem as if anyone was particularly close to João, whereas - by all accounts - she was attached to Joana. I don't see any reason for her to cover up for him. And it still wouldn't explain why she'd have condoned, let alone actively participated in, this whole macabre chopping up scenario (for which there is zero forensic evidence).
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 12:38:05 PM
So you think Leonor's brother, who previously served a sentence for attempted murder, incapable of hurting the girl?  Could it be that Leonor covered for him in the beginning knowing that should he be convicted of assault again that they might lock him up and throw away the key?

I agree that there is no record of violence by Leonor, just a history of abandonment and neglect of her children.

I'm not sure about neglect, but, yes, she'd left her other children with relatives of the fathers' families. Don't forget, however, that she'd had only three years of schooling and no means of supporting herself and various children. There doesn't appear to have been any investigation as to whether there had been domestic violence in those households or not... so there's no way of knowing why she left.

Her life became more settled when she met Leandro and they appear to have been happy together.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 02:42:04 PM
I'm not sure about neglect, but, yes, she'd left her other children with relatives of the fathers' families. Don't forget, however, that she'd had only three years of schooling and no means of supporting herself and various children. There doesn't appear to have been any investigation as to whether there had been domestic violence in those households or not... so there's no way of knowing why she left.

Her life became more settled when she met Leandro and they appear to have been happy together.

Leandro Silva brought some normality to the family and gave them a proper home instead of a tented hovel.

(http://i.imgur.com/BXXFVKm.jpg?1)

Happier times.  Leonor Cipriano with daughter Joana and then partner Leandro Silva


(http://i.imgur.com/Fnem6Ds.jpg?1)

From left.  Joana Cipriano with her mother Leonor.  Far right.  Leandro Silva with his mother and sister seated.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 03:56:45 PM
Yes, they seem to have been a stable and happy - albeit poor -  little family.

The alleged scenario that she bashed Joana against the wall because she was having a quickie with her brother doesn't seem likely.

- They don't appear to have been close. He seems to have had a habit of turning up on relatives' doorsteps when he didn't have a job.

- I don't see why she would have had consensual sex in the living room in the potential presence of two young children, an older child about to come home from an errand, and one or both men who could have turned up home at any moment.

If that had happened, she could have said that he raped her. The brother already had a conviction (whatever the evidence may have been for that conviction...), so that doesn't make much sense. And there was no forensic evidence that that ever happened. If the PJ had found an incriminating used condom, that scenario might have been vaguely plausible.

- The other scenario was that the child got home and refused to hand over the change as she wanted to keep it to go to the festival, whereupon Leonor bashed her to near death and the subsequent coverup. But none of the witnesses had ever noticed Leonor being abusive to the child in any way. I can't see any reason to have physically attacked her for a few euros in change, particularly when the bolos shop said he seemed to recollect that Leonor had paid with a €20  note.

And again, whatever the unsubstantiated motive, there is no forensic evidence to support the actual alleged crime, nor the alleged incestual sex scenario.



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 05:02:47 PM
Naquela unidade de saúde as hemorragias e dores abdominais provocadas por “alegadas lesões internas” resultantes das ditas agressões policiais de que disse ter sido vítima, foram desmascaradas pelos exames médicos:as manchas de sangue detectadas na cadeira onde se sentara nessa tarde, eram simplesmente vestígios do fluxo menstrual.


Erm... this is CdaM after all. She was taken to hospital complaining of alleged internal lesions due to police conduct, but medical examinations showed that the seat she'd been on simply showed traces of menstrual flow.

Really? Do interrogation chairs normally get taken to hospital for medical analysis?




Note to self: The dates need to be worked out. She was taken to Faro on the Monday (supposedly), but when was the interrogation that led to this initial supposed confession? It's feasible that the pain got progressively worse and was taken a day or two later. Or are the dates wrong in the article?

Where is there any mention of the medical report on that in the ruling?


No mention anywhere of that hospital visit, Carana. Only by Media.

 Well of course!…. you take the chair to the hospital with you if you were bleeding
and in pain.  @)(++(*  No way!

 If it was on the chair it would also be on her clothing, which I assume the doctor would have removed to examine her? So why the need to examine a chair………Too Silly!
Just another excuse for an injury received whilst being interrogated IMO.
What big brave boys they were…………….
A woman who was very immature, backward and incapable of making decisions. Probably dependant on others for help in all manners of everyday life. A gentle person who could not even punish her children or joint a chicken.


Well we know that the reconstruction date could not have been after the date on the article in DN, so the book written by PC was quoting the date of the reconstruction as to questioning the witness and neighbours. The Joao reconstruction was on a Saturday, so would lawyers etc be so easily available? Leandro was there that day as he had to take the key the officers. Maybe he told the media?
 It certainly seems to be getting covered up for some reason.

Who knows about the date of the battering that Leonor got, except for the prison manager and media report?

Her partner and his  family and her brothers were all defendants, 6 in all I believe, but they all became witness just before the court case, most gave evidence against her. For example Leandro said she wasn't bruised and he had a knife and saw which had disappeared, which he later admitted that he never owned.

 
As for that food in the house. Leandro said that he had already stocked up with these products. (but he said a lot of things in the first court hearing which he later denied)

Why did Leonor send Joana out shopping if such things were already in the house?
I had come to the conclusion that Joao was being abusive due to his need for drug money and Leonor was protecting her by sending her out, but I could be wrong and the selling her story was true.


Was a receipt ever found for that shopping? The receipt was found for the cleaning materials and scourer.............Dated Several days after Joana's disappearance. Leandro's mother sent out for oil because there was an infestation of ticks? in the house and I believe that she done the cleaning.


The dates for the confession of an accident, seem to differ in the media...............If I go by the news articles it would appear that it was the early hours 24/25 when an accidental death was confessed to by Leonor However when it came to putting it in writing, her brother declined and blamed his sister.
She was further interrogated that day and I believe returned to the court, before being taken to an isolated cell in prison.
Joao was let free, but ran off and was caught.

(Sound familiar?...If you will  Confess to accident you will get a lesser sentence).

So it was at some time that same day 25th that the Reconstruction done by Joao was filmed. ? Before the confession of Leonor or after?

The times are so conflicting in Media articles and it seems they were not included in the Re-trial in 2006.



The 2009 appeal was the only free from interrogation, confession that Leonor made that I am aware of. I think the appeal was an idea put forward by the lawyer, . to get an early release, or she was actually telling  the truth.
Leonor had already tried to tell this story …… but who knows.
It was thrown out of court anyway.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 05:17:12 PM
I agree with most of what you posted Anna, I wonder if Joana was sent out to a shop on the other side of the village to get her out of the way for a while but she came back too quick?

Both João and Leonor were involved in the girls demise for one reason or another.   They were both in the house when the girl returned home, each blamed the other at different junctures.

João has already been out a couple of times on escorted home leave and Leonor will be doing the same in the near future.  I am confident we haven't heard the last of it from Leonor, maybe the truth will out yet.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 05:18:51 PM
For the moment, I'm going with Helena Machado's research that the reconstruction took place on 7 October. She's a well-known sociologist and I have no reason to believe that she wouldn't have checked the facts, even if it was a detail.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 05:21:18 PM


Then, when I had a look at the summary of the forensics and the associated witness statements, I was gobsmacked. There is just nothing indicative of anything more than what would be found in any household.



What like blood everywhere and semen in kids nickers? Sure
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 05:21:42 PM
I agree with most of what you posted Anna, I wonder if Joana was sent out to a shop on the other side of the village to get her out of the way for a while but she came back too quick?

Both João and Leonor were involved in the girls demise for one reason or another.   They were both in the house when the girl returned home, each blamed the other at different junctures.

João has already been out a couple of times on escorted home leave and Leonor will be doing the same in the near future.  I am confident we haven't heard the last of it from Leonor, maybe the truth will out yet.

If she'd gone elsewhere, why would Celia have corroborated that she'd been there, unless she'd also been sent elsewhere for something else. What other shop would have been open? Did the PJ investigate? If so, there doesn't appear to be anything about this other errand in the SC ruling.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 05:26:02 PM
If she'd gone elsewhere, why would Celia have corroborated that she'd been there, unless she'd also been sent elsewhere for something else. What other shop would have been open? Did the PJ investigate? If so, there doesn't appear to be anything about this other errand in the SC ruling.

She only shopped in Célia's cafe/patisserie to my knowledge which is in the other side of the village from the family home. 

See map and link below.  A = Célia's    B = Cipriano home

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3035.msg109971#msg109971
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 05:30:34 PM
What like blood everywhere and semen in kids nickers? Sure

What blood everywhere? There were a few specks here and there, 10 days after she'd disappeared and none of it identifiable. Some of it was animal blood.

The semen in knickers issue is a bit odd. That issue never seems to have been clarified. The only thing that I found ages ago , but which I've now lost track of, was an alleged pair of knickers in a laundry basket of other clothes.

Leandro was asked about that in his interview and it seems he never understood what it was about, either. He was apparently told that it was his, then that of the other male occupant, then it might have been that of someone else.

Was there even a positive test for semen in the first place? The PJ forensic lot had managed to confuse semen with saliva in a later case so...
No idea...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
She only shopped in Célia's cafe/patisserie to my knowledge which is in the other side of the village from the family home.

That's my understanding as well. Was any nearer shop open? If not, I don't see the potential issue.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 05:38:44 PM
That's my understanding as well. Was any nearer shop open? If not, I don't see the potential issue.

It was a fair day, all the shops were open.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 05:39:51 PM
I agree with most of what you posted Anna, I wonder if Joana was sent out to a shop on the other side of the village to get her out of the way for a while but she came back too quick?

Both João and Leonor were involved in the girls demise for one reason or another.   They were both in the house when the girl returned home, each blamed the other at different junctures.

João has already been out a couple of times on escorted home leave and Leonor will be doing the same in the near future.  I am confident we haven't heard the last of it from Leonor, maybe the truth will out yet.

I hope the truth will come out eventually, John.
That depends on whether Leonor is capable of coping, strong enough to fight and has learned to look after herself better, whilst she was in prison....She is probably too scared to open her mouth though.
She should have had a fund to fight the allegations directed at her (with no hard evidence) which resulted in her being imprisoned and being separated from her babies.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 05:43:53 PM
For the moment, I'm going with Helena Machado's research that the reconstruction took place on 7 October. She's a well-known sociologist and I have no reason to believe that she wouldn't have checked the facts, even if it was a detail.

That's fair enough Carana. So you believe that his video confession on that date was not acted upon until the confession on 25th in front of the magistrate?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 05:44:27 PM
I hope the truth will come out eventually, John.
That depends on whether Leonor is capable of coping, strong enough to fight and has learned to look after herself better, whilst she was in prison....She is probably too scared to open her mouth though.
She should have had a fund to fight the allegations directed at her (with no hard evidence) which resulted in her being imprisoned and being separated from her babies.

I would love to interview her some day and get to the bottom of this mystery, there are just so many unanswered questions.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 05:49:43 PM
It was a fair day, all the shops were open.

That café was their regular shop for groceries I believe and Joana liked to go there, because the owners daughter was her friend.
Witnesses said that the streets were empty because everyone was at the cockle fair. The only traffic that seems to have been noticed was a large black car that was cruising around the area on that day. Also the tow truck and a red car that Leandro was dealing with for his parents.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 05:50:03 PM
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 06:02:40 PM
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

Especially when they would have passed officers from the GNR on fair duty anyway when supposedly out searching. The 'no credit on the mobile phone' story just doesn't hold water either, had her daughter really have gone missing she only had to ask someone to phone the police for her.  Also, if Joana had really gone missing why weren't the immediate neighbours alerted to join the search?  Convenient too that Leonor took Leandro out searching and left João in the house with the babies.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 06:13:45 PM
I would love to interview her some day and get to the bottom of this mystery, there are just so many unanswered questions.

She would tell you the same as she told Marcos. IMO
............................that her brother followed Joana after she went out and he returned about 30 minutes later. Joana never returned.
Knowing that his sister was rather backward/slow and forgiving/gentle, I think he might have told her what happened, as in Leonor's 2009 confession and she was initially protecting him.......until he stabbed her in the back that is.
However where in such a short time, could he lose a body?
As in McCann case, there was a lot of building going on and ditches to be filled in the area.
Joao worked in Figueira in construction at times, not that I am saying that he put her in a ditch prepared for filling, just one of my many thoughts on the case.
Was she sold and he didn't want to part with any of the money?
He accused Leandros parents of being involved in the money
He also accused his brother of being involved
and of course he accused, Leonor

In the end it all boils down to evidence and there was nothing with which to safely convict them. Their trial consisted of Propaganda causing a trial by media before it even got to court. The final straw was that video made by Joao and shown in court despite their right to remain silent during the trial.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:16:17 PM
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

There is a witness statement from a GNR officer gathering information from her and the men searching for her that night at a bit after midnight near the church. She was told to make a formal report later that morning at the Portimão station, which she did.

Here we go:

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:18:55 PM
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

Bit likethe mccanns, delayed reportng is always suspicious
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
Especially when they would have passed officers from the GNR on fair duty anyway when supposedly out searching. The 'no credit on the mobile phone' story just doesn't hold water either, had her daughter really have gone missing she only had to ask someone to phone the police for her.  Also, if Joana had really gone missing why weren't the immediate neighbours alerted to join the search?  Convenient too that Leonor took Leandro out searching and left João in the house with the babies.

Her friend from the café went to help and after all relatives etc had been checked, she phoned the police.
Leonor did report it to a GNR officer whilst they were out searching. He told her to go to the office the following day.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:26:58 PM
That's fair enough Carana. So you believe that his video confession on that date was not acted upon until the confession on 25th in front of the magistrate?

I don't know Anna. I suspect that the video confession was well after the initial "confessions", i.e., on or around 7 October - that seems to be the only reliable reference for the moment.

Leandro doesn't mention a date (but if he was the only one to have a key, it was presumably after Leonor had been held on remand). The SC ruling doesn't appear to mention a date, either.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:38:32 PM
She would tell you the same as she told Marcos. IMO
............................that her brother followed Joana after she went out and he returned about 30 minutes later. Joana never returned.
Knowing that his sister was rather backward/slow and forgiving/gentle, I think he might have told her what happened, as in Leonor's 2009 confession and she was initially protecting him.......until he stabbed her in the back that is.
However where in such a short time, could he lose a body?
As in McCann case, there was a lot of building going on and ditches to be filled in the area.
Joao worked in Figueira in construction at times, not that I am saying that he put her in a ditch prepared for filling, just one of my many thoughts on the case.
Was she sold and he didn't want to part with any of the money?
He accused Leandros parents of being involved in the money
He also accused his brother of being involved
and of course he accused, Leonor

In the end it all boils down to evidence and there was nothing with which to safely convict them. Their trial consisted of Propaganda causing a trial by media before it even got to court. The final straw was that video made by Joao and shown in court despite their right to remain silent during the trial.

Despite my initial assumptions, and having thought of all kinds of possibilities, I now don't think that either of them have a clue what happened to her.

Even if one of them had sold her, why "confess" to this macabre body chopping scenario? There is simply no forensic or other credible evidence that this gory story happened. There is no evidence that either of them attempted to sell her, either.

Under pressure, I can however see that each had become suspicious of the other... but it doesn't appear to more than that.

She simply vanished.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:42:03 PM
Despite my initial assumptions, and having thought of all kinds of possibilities, I now don't think that either of them have a clue what happened to her.

Even if one of them had sold her, why "confess" to this macabre body chopping scenario? There is simply no forensic or other credible evidence that this gory story happened. There is no evidence that either of them attempted to sell her, either.

Under pressure, I can however see that each had become suspicious of the other... but it doesn't appear to more than that.

She simply vanished.

yea just like Madeleine did, no evidence of an abduction but PLENTY circumstantial...and such being wghitewashed or attempted at, but still wont wash howver hard you try
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 06:42:26 PM
There is a witness statement from a GNR officer gathering information from her and the men searching for her that night at a bit after midnight near the church. She was told to make a formal report later that morning at the Portimão station, which she did.

Here we go:

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.

If my daughter had gone missing,  I would not be waiting for the following morning.

How old was she by the way ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
That café was their regular shop for groceries I believe and Joana liked to go there, because the owners daughter was her friend.
Witnesses said that the streets were empty because everyone was at the cockle fair. The only traffic that seems to have been noticed was a large black car that was cruising around the area on that day. Also the tow truck and a red car that Leandro was dealing with for his parents.

Hang on... the Pasteleria wasn't the same as the little supermarket.

NN is the bar / mini shop person:
A testemunha NN, proprietária da "Pastelaria ...", declarou que no dia 12 de Setembro a CC apareceu na pastelaria, pelas 8h 20m / 8 h 30m, a comprar um pacote de leite e duas latas de atum.

This is the "bolos" shop person:
A testemunha AA8, que à data era proprietária de uma fábrica de bolos na Figueira, 

The supermarket lady appears to have been someone else again:
A testemunha BB3, proprietária de um supermercado na Figueira, declarou conhecer muito bem a CC, de quem era amiga, tendo sido a testemunha que levou a menor à escola no primeiro dia de aulas na Figueira.


Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:47:50 PM
If my daughter had gone missing,  I would not be waiting for the following morning.

How old was she by the way ?

She met with the police that night, but they told her to go make a formal report the next morning.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 06:50:41 PM
I don't know Anna. I suspect that the video confession was well after the initial "confessions", i.e., on or around 7 October - that seems to be the only reliable reference for the moment.

Leandro doesn't mention a date (but if he was the only one to have a key, it was presumably after Leonor had been held on remand). The SC ruling doesn't appear to mention a date, either.

This info is already on here somewhere, but this is a data collection from sep on to may. I haven't got a link sorry. If I can find more already on here I will add.

Day 12: Joana Cipriano, eight years ago, is seen, for the last time, near the church of Figueira, Portimao. GNR starts searching.

Day 16: the Disappearance of the child is participated to Interpol. PJ the puts the chance of crime and strengthens the means in the field.

Day 22: Forensic Laboratory collects blood and hair of Joanna in the house. IS interrogated John Cipriano, uncle of the child. Mother and uncle are arrested on charges of murder. On day 24, the Court of Portimao ordains the preventive detention for Leonor and loose John Cyprian. Mother confesses to having killed the daughter accidentally.

Day 26: John Cyprian confesses to having been him to kill Joana. Is remanded in custody.

OCTOBER

Day 21: PJ passes eight hours rummaging among the casa Da Figueira, where collected objects and clothing of Joana.

NOVEMBER

Day 11: Exams made to traces of blood found in the house of Joana reveal themselves inconclusive.



Day 21: are found pieces of fabric and hair in a pigsty. PJ puts the hypothesis of the body of joana have been thrown to the site.

January 2005

Leonor says-if damaged by PJ. Antonio Leandro, stepfather of joana, consists accused.

MARCH

Day 12: Six months after the disappearance of Joana prevails the thesis of murder.

MAY Day 2005

3: MP deduces the indictment against Leonor and John Cyprian by crimes of murder qualified,
desecration and concealment of corpse.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 06:55:19 PM
She met with the police that night, but they told her to go make a formal report the next morning.

Did she search for her daughter that night ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:02:15 PM
I've seen several timelines by various media and they don't always correspond.

I haven't found anything to dispute that she disappeared on the evening of 12 September 2004. So that's one date that seems reliable.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:03:05 PM
Did she search for her daughter that night ?

Yes.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 07:07:01 PM
Did she search for her daughter that night ?

Yes she did, Stephen. All night.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:14:55 PM
Yes.

When, and for how long ?

A cite would be, rather than hearsay.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:15:29 PM
Yes she did, Stephen. All night.

You can prove that she did ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:29:37 PM
When, and for how long ?

A cite would be, rather than hearsay.

Here you go, the Supreme Court ruling if that's good enough.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:35:07 PM
Here you go, the Supreme Court ruling if that's good enough.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

The translation is little short of gibberish.

Is there any independent verification she searched through the night for her daughter ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:40:25 PM
The translation is little short of gibberish.

Is there any independent verification she searched through the night for her daughter ?

Do you mean aside from witness testimonies in a court of law? What would you be looking for?

She didn't go out immediately as she had the toddlers at home, but sent her brother out when she didn't get back home. The brother alerted the other two men (her partner and  the other guy who iived with them). They checked back home that she hadn't returned and went back out to search. When they still hadn't found her, she went out. Witnesses: the bar / shop lady, various other people, the police that night...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:43:09 PM
Do you mean aside from witness testimonies in a court of law? What would you be looking for?

She didn't go out immediately as she had the toddlers at home, but sent her brother out when she didn't get back home. The brother alerted the other two men (her partner and  the other guy who iived with them). They checked back home that she hadn't returned and went back out to search. When they still hadn't found her, she went out. Witnesses: the bar / shop lady, various other people, the police that night...

In the middle of the night ?

and her brother is hardly a reliable witness, is he.

How do we know that she, her brother and this other man told the truth ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:48:17 PM
In the middle of the night ?

and her brother is hardly a reliable witness, is he.

How do we know that she, her brother and this other man told the truth ?

I've posted a summary on the other recent thread on here.

Are you saying that the cafe / shop lady was lying? That the GNR cop was lying?

There's no cctv evidence, Stephen, so all there is to go on is witness statements.

Aside, seemingly, from amateur footage of the festival that showed Leandro (her partner) away from home during the supposed fateful home event time.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:51:52 PM
I've posted a summary on the other recent thread on here.

Are you saying that the cafe / shop lady was lying? That the GNR cop was lying?

There's no cctv evidence, Stephen, so all there is to go on is witness statements.

Aside, seemingly, from amateur footage of the festival that showed Leandro (her partner) away from home during the supposed fateful home event time.

Were they with her when she searched ?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 07:57:43 PM
Were they with her when she searched ?

This is my best attempt to work out the events of that evening. subject to change if I find other details, but it seems to be more or less the gist:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg255186#msg255186
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:10:45 PM
Were they with her when she searched ?

The shop lady was and then another brother of Leonor met up with Leonor, Leandro and leandro's friend. The GNR officer was met sometime after midnight and Leonor spoke to him about her missing daughter.
There is only media reports and statements to go on, Stephen.
If you are interested I will see what I can find, but there is an awful lot of information already on here. Try doing a couple of searches.

15 sep 2004 cm
 "She is a young girl quiet, docile and very understanding" ,she stressed to the CM Ofélia Zepherin, owner of the coffee shop where the child was fetching the milk and the cans of tuna, before disappearing (two people say she was seen next to the church) on the way back to the house, pointing out that "in the village everyone is worried about it and with fear of what might have happened to her, even because you never noted a case like this".  Ofélia Zepherin helped, in fact, the family trying to find the child, on the night in which she gave the disappearance, retracing the surroundings, including searching for to finds her among the people that were at the party that was happening in the village. As the searches had no results, on the same night was called the GNR. Other inhabitants pointed out, however, the desire for everything to be clarified, so that the quiet is back to the village.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/crianca-desaparecida

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 08:23:43 PM
The shop lady was and then another brother of Leonor met up with Leonor, Leandro and leandro's friend. The GNR officer was met sometime after midnight and Leonor spoke to him about her missing daughter.
There is only media reports and statements to go on, Stephen.
If you are interested I will see what I can find, but there is an awful lot of information already on here. Try doing a couple of searches.

15 sep 2004 cm
 "She is a young girl quiet, docile and very understanding" ,she stressed to the CM Ofélia Zepherin, owner of the coffee shop where the child was fetching the milk and the cans of tuna, before disappearing (two people say she was seen next to the church) on the way back to the house, pointing out that "in the village everyone is worried about it and with fear of what might have happened to her, even because you never noted a case like this".  Ofélia Zepherin helped, in fact, the family trying to find the child, on the night in which she gave the disappearance, retracing the surroundings, including searching for to finds her among the people that were at the party that was happening in the village. As the searches had no results, on the same night was called the GNR. Other inhabitants pointed out, however, the desire for everything to be clarified, so that the quiet is back to the village.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/crianca-desaparecida

In the end it comes down to what the judges believed or didn't believe.

A while ago I found a link stating that relatives of the prisoners claimed that some of the prisoners attacked/tortured Cipriano, yet if I recall correctly, that was not used in court.

I will have a look for that tomorrow.

Meanwhile time to relax.

Have a good evening.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:33:36 PM
In the end it comes down to what the judges believed or didn't believe.

A while ago I found a link stating that relatives of the prisoners claimed that some of the prisoners attacked/tortured Cipriano, yet if I recall correctly, that was not used in court.

I will have a look for that tomorrow.

Meanwhile time to relax.

Have a good evening.

And you Stephen
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 11:21:14 AM
We had an interesting thread on forensics that I'd completely forgotten about:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.0
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 12:52:57 PM
Can someone help with the logic of this?


On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

(courtesy Joana / Astro for translation).


Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

source: Supreme Court ruling.


Yet, according to the only reliable source that I've found, João's "reconstruction" didn't take place until 7 October.

7 October 04 - reconstruction
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.

http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf

Unless the author, a well-known Portuguese sociologist, somehow made a mistake in the date of this "reconstruction", it happened weeks after the PJ flashed a black torch around as a forensic inspection, with presumably a toolkit to test for blood, as that took place on 22 September.

On face value, Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution. reads as if the reconstruction took place first and THEN the forensic people went to check if it was feasible... and their subsequent forensic analysis to check whether this "spontaneous" attempt to establish the truth gave credence to this "confession" via reconstruction.

My problem is that, unless there's a mistake in the timeline, the PJ flashed a torch around, and did tests in situ to establish presence of blood, PRIOR to this "reconstruction"...




Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 15, 2015, 01:18:53 PM
Her friend from the café went to help and after all relatives etc had been checked, she phoned the police.
Leonor did report it to a GNR officer whilst they were out searching. He told her to go to the office the following day.

Was that not the officer who spoke to the shop owner on the phone who told her to tell Leonor to call at the GNR post later that morning if Joana didn't reappear?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 01:27:51 PM
Can someone help with the logic of this?


On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

(courtesy Joana / Astro for translation).


Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

source: Supreme Court ruling.


Yet, according to the only reliable source that I've found, João's "reconstruction" didn't take place until 7 October.

7 October 04 - reconstruction
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.

http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf

Unless the author, a well-known Portuguese sociologist, somehow made a mistake in the date of this "reconstruction", it happened weeks after the PJ flashed a black torch around as a forensic inspection, with presumably a toolkit to test for blood, as that took place on 22 September.

On face value, Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution. reads as if the reconstruction took place first and THEN the forensic people went to check if it was feasible... and their subsequent forensic analysis to check whether this "spontaneous" attempt to establish the truth gave credence to this "confession" via reconstruction.

My problem is that, unless there's a mistake in the timeline, the PJ flashed a torch around, and did tests in situ to establish presence of blood, PRIOR to this "reconstruction"...

PJ had the forensic team in on the 22nd sep and Leonor was being interrogated all that day in Faro. Leandro and his sister were also there(in the house) and questioned.
The reconstruction of the killing etc was after this.
Leonor confessed to accidental death on 24th(Day after the bleeding incident?) and was summoned to magistrate on early hours of 25th . She was then interrogated more before being taken to the prison.




That is from the media, Carana.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: John on July 15, 2015, 01:43:04 PM
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3030.msg223358#msg223358)

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 02:29:09 PM
Thanks.

My issue at the moment is that the so-called confessions may have been made to coincide with the scenario imagined on the basis of having already waved the black torch around and discovering that there were at least a few traces of human blood. I find that to be somewhat akin to getting Amanda Knox to "remember" Lumumba after interminable hours of interrogation and what basicly amounts to brainwashing.

On the other hand, from the other perspective, my view would be completely different if someone really did confess to where a body had been hidden, for example in an unkown location that the police had never thought to search, but then went and discovered a body exactly where the suspect had said it was, with details that had never been revealed to the suspect or leaked to the public.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 02:49:33 PM


Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

This point first... I can see no reason for her to protect him. All either of them have done is to shift the blame onto each other.

That could be because a) both are involved, b) a fishing expedition in which one is led to believe that the other is falsely accusing them and over-reacts, accusing the other c) there is in fact some probative evidence, which isn't the case in this instance.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 02:53:31 PM
Thanks.

My issue at the moment is that the so-called confessions may have been made to coincide with the scenario imagined on the basis of having already waved the black torch around and discovering that there were at least a few traces of human blood. I find that to be somewhat akin to getting Amanda Knox to "remember" Lumumba after interminable hours of interrogation and what basicly amounts to brainwashing.

On the other hand, from the other perspective, my view would be completely different if someone really did confess to where a body had been hidden, for example in an unkown location that the police had never thought to search, but then went and discovered a body exactly where the suspect had said it was, with details that had never been revealed to the suspect or leaked to the public.

My thoughts too, Carana.
Make the crime fit the scene.

Although I do believe that Joao was capable of committing a crime to feed his habit, I am not too sure that he was involved. However on saying that, I am more inclined to believe the story that was told by Leonor.....That he followed Joanna out and returned a short time later. The rest may be what she thought had occurred, rather than what actually did.
She was so vulnerable and was accustomed to doing whatever was asked of her, by the sound of it.
I also think that she was afraid of Joao.
She was gentle and very immature, whilst he was violent and didn't care who he accused as long as it was for his benefit. (His own mother thought him capable of killing Joana)
He accused his brother and Leandro's family of being involved. He also accused his brother in another crime that he had committed.
Why was Leonor the main suspect, when she had no criminal record? I really think that women are blamed more easily in Portugal.......Weaker sex? Easier to manipulate?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 03:20:00 PM
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3030.msg223358#msg223358)

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

On the potential sexual abuse issue... no idea. It all seems to be a bit of a shambles, with very little that seems verifiable.

- According to some accounts, MM had unprotected sex with his girlfriend on either Joana's bed, or one nearby. Did the forensics do a DNA test to verify?

- Then, there's a story about semen found on her knickers, which was never identified, but could have been contamination due to general laundry being stuffed in the same basket.

- And, there's this somewhat odd justification... that it would have cost €10,000 for a test, which was too much and was therefore never done.

A DNA test doesn't cost €10k, surely?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114919#msg114919


I have no idea whether any test for semen ever turned up positive on her knickers or not... nor whether this was ever more than rumour, or whether it was another mistaken test for other fluids. So far, it seems to be one of those nebulous aspects that were never quite clarified.

if a child's knickers had been found in isolation with only her DNA and semen of a male, that would indeed be suspicious. In this case, however, a child's knickers in a laundry basket with that of several adults could reveal semen (or any body fluid mistakenly assumed to be such) in a mix that would be impossible to isolate.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 03:23:30 PM
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3030.msg223358#msg223358)

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

I think it is more than likely that she was afraid of him. He was a complete opposite to her in his personality.
If he was involved, he would have demanded in a threatening manner, in the same way that he warned Leandro,  the day after the disappearance...........The same day that he done a runner.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 03:32:00 PM
My thoughts too, Carana.
Make the crime fit the scene.

Although I do believe that Joao was capable of committing a crime to feed his habit, I am not too sure that he was involved. However on saying that, I am more inclined to believe the story that was told by Leonor.....That he followed Joanna out and returned a short time later. The rest may be what she thought had occurred, rather than what actually did.
She was so vulnerable and was accustomed to doing whatever was asked of her, by the sound of it.
I also think that she was afraid of Joao.
She was gentle and very immature, whilst he was violent and didn't care who he accused as long as it was for his benefit. (His own mother thought him capable of killing Joana)
He accused his brother and Leandro's family of being involved. He also accused his brother in another crime that he had committed.
Why was Leonor the main suspect, when she had no criminal record? I really think that women are blamed more easily in Portugal.......Weaker sex? Easier to manipulate?

No idea. He may indeed have been a black sheep, but possibly also someone with a learning disability which made him the scapegoat when he found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The family had no problem pointing the finger at him as a possible culprit... but then they were nearly all arguidos as well. He was the vagrant, whereas the others had their own nuclear families to protect. He was known to have used drugs, allegedly, and he had a conviction for violence, although I've never found what the evidence was in that case.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 03:34:59 PM
On the potential sexual abuse issue... no idea. It all seems to be a bit of a shambles, with very little that seems verifiable.

- According to some accounts, MM had unprotected sex with his girlfriend on either Joana's bed, or one nearby. Did the forensics do a DNA test to verify?

- Then, there's a story about semen found on her knickers, which was never identified, but could have been contamination due to general laundry being stuffed in the same basket.

- And, there's this somewhat odd justification... that it would have cost €10,000 for a test, which was too much and was therefore never done.

A DNA test doesn't cost €10k, surely?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114919#msg114919


I have no idea whether any test for semen ever turned up positive on her knickers or not... nor whether this was ever more than rumour, or whether it was another mistaken test for other fluids. So far, it seems to be one of those nebulous aspects that were never quite clarified.

if a child's knickers had been found in isolation with only her DNA and semen of a male, that would indeed be suspicious. In this case, however, a child's knickers in a laundry basket with that of several adults could reveal semen (or any body fluid mistakenly assumed to be such) in a mix that would be impossible to isolate.

Nothing was found to verify this and Without checking back, I don't believe that it got a mention in the re-trial
It was a threat IMO to get Leandro and other defendants  to say what they wanted them to say........No bruises, a saw, a knife, shopping in the house(no receipt)  All (after the court case) statements from Leandro in Press articles have denied the reports of the first court case.
Where I must add all the defendants became witnesses instead and testified against Leonor.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 03:38:04 PM
I think it is more than likely that she was afraid of him. He was a complete opposite to her in his personality.
If he was involved, he would have demanded in a threatening manner, in the same way that he warned Leandro,  the day after the disappearance...........The same day that he done a runner.

I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 03:42:28 PM
No idea. He may indeed have been a black sheep, but possibly also someone with a learning disability which made him the scapegoat when he found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The family had no problem pointing the finger at him as a possible culprit... but then they were nearly all arguidos as well. He was the vagrant, whereas the others had their own nuclear families to protect. He was known to have used drugs, allegedly, and he had a conviction for violence, although I've never found what the evidence was in that case.

IIRC, Carana, He had two younger brothers in prison.

Two of Joao's brothers were defendants and a sister, Leandro, his stepbrother, his friend and a sister? were also defendants. They wanted his mother, but it was dropped. I believe seven in all not including, Leonor and Joao


Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 03:48:20 PM
I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.

Maybe he refused to go out searching. Leandro asked her to go and search with them..............
Between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Sensible doesn't come into it......................Does it?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 03:55:34 PM
Maybe he refused to go out searching. Leandro asked her to go and search with them..............
Between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Sensible doesn't come into it......................Does it?


Dunno. The boys had come back with no sign of her. Seemingly it hadn't occurred to any of the boys to ask Celia lady if she'd actually been there. Gentle as she may be, I wouldn't find a smack-head moment to be beyond comprehension and to go out myself.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 04:18:31 PM
I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.

2009 appeal
The mother of the Applicant and of John (Florinda Sundays), after faced with the last and true confessions of both, expressly states (on 1 June of this year) that in them entirely believe, given know very well their children and know that Leonor was unable to beat in children, and that John was, on the contrary, a person very violent that even has already threatened her to death, and it was still the same son a consumer of narcotic substances heavy that "was able Do everything to get money for drugs"; ends by stressing its firm certainty with perfect knowledge of question (regarding the personality of both these sons) which is just the Joao Manuel Domingos Cyprian his son "the only responsible" by the disappearance of his granddaughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro;
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/67e9f860c06af1d9802576a9004e4a2c?OpenDocument

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 04:41:09 PM
2009 appeal
The mother of the Applicant and of John (Florinda Sundays), after faced with the last and true confessions of both, expressly states (on 1 June of this year) that in them entirely believe, given know very well their children and know that Leonor was unable to beat in children, and that John was, on the contrary, a person very violent that even has already threatened her to death, and it was still the same son a consumer of narcotic substances heavy that "was able Do everything to get money for drugs"; ends by stressing its firm certainty with perfect knowledge of question (regarding the personality of both these sons) which is just the Joao Manuel Domingos Cyprian his son "the only responsible" by the disappearance of his granddaughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro;
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/67e9f860c06af1d9802576a9004e4a2c?OpenDocument

LOL the wonders of googlish.

Hmm. I don't think that Leonor was involved in the fate of this child, but I'm sceptical about that new testimony.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 04:55:38 PM
LOL the wonders of googlish.

Hmm. I don't think that Leonor was involved in the fate of this child, but I'm sceptical about that new testimony.

Original, if it helps, Carana. From the link in my last post

"Declaração
Eu abaixo assinado JJ, portadora do Cartão de Cidadão 0000000, Mãe de AA e de CC , venho por este modo declarar que conheço muito bem ambos estes meus filhos, e que juro que a minha filha AA nunca batia na minha neta BB. Também juro por minha honra que esta minha neta sempre disse o melhor da mãe e que gostava muito de viver com ela. Também juro que conhecendo o meu filho CC como conheço, sei que ele era capaz de fazer tudo para conseguir dinheiro para a droga, pois há muito tempo antes da BB desaparecer que ele não trabalhava e que era consumidor duma droga considerada pesada, não sabendo exactamente se era cocaína ou heroína, mas sendo de certeza uma destas. O CC tornava-se muito violento quando não conseguia a droga e era capaz mesmo de me ameaçar de morte.
Acredito portanto na confissão da AA e do CC, ambos os meus filhos, quando confessaram que a BB minha neta, filha da minha filha AA, foi tentada vender pelo CC. Acredito finalmente que a confissão do CC meu filho, de 18 de Maio deste ano, é verdadeira e é ele o CC o único responsável pelo desaparecimento da minha neta AA de 8 anos. Portanto suplico que seja feita justiça e que a minha filha AA seja libertada e o meu filho CC pague por o que fez à menina.
 Montes Grandes Silves
 1 de Junho de 2009



Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 04:58:23 PM
A totally different question, or several:

How big was this house?

How many bedrooms were there?

Where did this MM sleep?

Was he with Leandro the entire time that evening?

Did anyone ask or check?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 05:15:22 PM
Original, if it helps, Carana. From the link in my last post

"Declaração
Eu abaixo assinado JJ, portadora do Cartão de Cidadão 0000000, Mãe de AA e de CC , venho por este modo declarar que conheço muito bem ambos estes meus filhos, e que juro que a minha filha AA nunca batia na minha neta BB. Também juro por minha honra que esta minha neta sempre disse o melhor da mãe e que gostava muito de viver com ela. Também juro que conhecendo o meu filho CC como conheço, sei que ele era capaz de fazer tudo para conseguir dinheiro para a droga, pois há muito tempo antes da BB desaparecer que ele não trabalhava e que era consumidor duma droga considerada pesada, não sabendo exactamente se era cocaína ou heroína, mas sendo de certeza uma destas. O CC tornava-se muito violento quando não conseguia a droga e era capaz mesmo de me ameaçar de morte.
Acredito portanto na confissão da AA e do CC, ambos os meus filhos, quando confessaram que a BB minha neta, filha da minha filha AA, foi tentada vender pelo CC. Acredito finalmente que a confissão do CC meu filho, de 18 de Maio deste ano, é verdadeira e é ele o CC o único responsável pelo desaparecimento da minha neta AA de 8 anos. Portanto suplico que seja feita justiça e que a minha filha AA seja libertada e o meu filho CC pague por o que fez à menina.
 Montes Grandes Silves
 1 de Junho de 2009

Thanks, Anna. So that's the mother of Leonor and João... googlish was getting confusing.

I'm still sceptical about it, though.

A mother's belief in the innocence or guilt of one child over another would simply not count as new "evidence" in a reappraisal of a trial, AFAIK.

It might have counted as a character witness statement in the original trial, if had been submitted at the time, but hardly as hard proof to reopen an investigation or to release a prisoner with a life sentence for having served a sentence for a lesser crime.

Who  was responsible for this "brainwave"?


The result for Leonor in the end was an extension on her sentence.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 07:01:57 PM
Thanks, Anna. So that's the mother of Leonor and João... googlish was getting confusing.

I'm still sceptical about it, though.

A mother's belief in the innocence or guilt of one child over another would simply not count as new "evidence" in a reappraisal of a trial, AFAIK.

It might have counted as a character witness statement in the original trial, if had been submitted at the time, but hardly as hard proof to reopen an investigation or to release a prisoner with a life sentence for having served a sentence for a lesser crime.

Who  was responsible for this "brainwave"?


The result for Leonor in the end was an extension on her sentence.

Joao and Leonor's mother was not called to testify in the original trial. Neither was a statement taken.
2009 appeal was judged and refused in april 2009. It was requested by Marcos C. It was denied because of his method used to get a statement of guilt from Joao.

 It was the torture trial that she got an extra penalty for.
They said she was lying because she got the colour of the carrier bag wrong and the material of the tube they were hitting her with. Since torture had already been accepted as having occurred. She should have been acquitted IMO

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 07:57:46 PM
A totally different question, or several:

How big was this house?

How many bedrooms were there?

Where did this MM sleep?

Was he with Leandro the entire time that evening?

Did anyone ask or check?

I believe most of the answers are in the 2006 trial, Carana.


I believe it was two bedrooms and a bathroom
 A living/dining area with kitchen
I don’t think it could be a one bedroom if guests used Joana’s bed at times and it doesn’t look big enough for three bedrooms. There was no upper floor. See photos at the bottom/
Now I look at these photos again, I wonder where was the door to the back of the house? Or was that the only door which went straight into the living room as described by PJ.
Which would mean that their house was built behind another with a front door.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe MM normally slept on the settee unless Joana or others wanted to watch late TV. God knows where Joao was suppose to sleep.

MM seemed to around Leandro most of the time, but they did split up to search.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 08:08:08 PM
@ Anna
IMO, if there had been solid evidence against one or the other or both, then fine. This little girl deserves justice, whoever was actually responsible.

However, in terms of the "evidence" presented, I'm shocked that the case went to trial in the first place. One or both MAY indeed be guilty, but there was virtually no more established evidence against them than if the PJ had plucked people off the street. Yet they are serving life sentences...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
@ Anna
IMO, if there had been solid evidence against one or the other or both, then fine. This little girl deserves justice, whoever was actually responsible.

However, in terms of the "evidence" presented, I'm shocked that the case went to trial in the first place. One or both MAY indeed be guilty, but there was virtually no more established evidence against them than if the PJ had plucked people off the street. Yet they are serving life sentences...


You got it, Carana. No evidence to convict................but they did!
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 08:17:58 PM
I believe most of the answers are in the 2006 trial, Carana.


I believe it was two bedrooms and a bathroom
 A living/dining area with kitchen
I don’t think it could be a one bedroom if guests used Joana’s bed at times and it doesn’t look big enough for three bedrooms. There was no upper floor. See photos at the bottom/
Now I look at these photos again, I wonder where was the door to the back of the house? Or was that the only door which went straight into the living room as described by PJ.
Which would mean that their house was built behind another with a front door.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe MM normally slept on the settee unless Joana or others wanted to watch late TV. God knows where Joao was suppose to sleep.

MM seemed to around Leandro most of the time, but they did split up to search.

Has it been established that the view of the living-room area is actually of the same home? If so, it doesn't appear to correspond to the outside view.

ETA: OK it might if the entrance and window are on the right on the living-room photo and not shown.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 08:38:34 PM
(With thanks to Joana / Astro for translation)
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.



Someone has to explain to me, in words of one syllable or less, how the smoking gun forensic evidence of the alleged massacre amounted to anything more than a nicked finger chopping up a piece of meat, someone mopping it up and throwing the bucket of water out of the door, possibly nine days after the disappearance in a home in which everyone continued to live (i.e., an average household day prior to the day on which the PJ boys turned up with their torch - depending on mealtimes and when the PJ actually turned up).

Alternatively, explain to me how the results prove the macabre alleged events.


This "forensic" appreciation of the state of the living-room took place on 22 September. João's "reconstruction" (unless a different reliable source shows otherwise) took place on 7 October, i.e. weeks before the "voluntary" filmed "reconstruction".

But somehow, this timeline gets turned on its head:

Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

Hmmm?
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 09:36:13 PM
Anna had a good post somewhere on the timeline between when she is supposed to have got back home and the gory rest of it.

I can't find it for the moment...
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 09:45:34 PM
Anna had a good post somewhere on the timeline between when she is supposed to have got back home and the gory rest of it.

I can't find it for the moment...

Its not this one of mine is it?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg222125#msg222125
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 09:58:43 PM
Its not this one of mine is it?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg222125#msg222125

Yep.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 08:54:22 AM
Its not this one of mine is it?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg222125#msg222125

In that timeline, you missed out that they were supposed to have been having wild sex at the time ;)
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 09:23:28 AM
Especially when they would have passed officers from the GNR on fair duty anyway when supposedly out searching. The 'no credit on the mobile phone' story just doesn't hold water either, had her daughter really have gone missing she only had to ask someone to phone the police for her.  Also, if Joana had really gone missing why weren't the immediate neighbours alerted to join the search?  Convenient too that Leonor took Leandro out searching and left João in the house with the babies.

From the witness testimonies, my impression is that she was more perplexed that night. She certainly wasn't running around screaming that she'd been abducted. In the morning several people noted that she was very upset and had been crying. Joana had been staying a few days in the run-up to the birthday bash with Leadnro's parents, and had been due to stay an extra day. She may have half-assumed that there'd been a mix-up in communication as to where she was supposed to spend the night - and when they were able to make calls later that night and found that she wasn't there, it dawned on her that something was seriously wrong.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 09:50:05 AM
Joao and Leonor's mother was not called to testify in the original trial. Neither was a statement taken.
2009 appeal was judged and refused in april 2009. It was requested by Marcos C. It was denied because of his method used to get a statement of guilt from Joao.

 It was the torture trial that she got an extra penalty for.
They said she was lying because she got the colour of the carrier bag wrong and the material of the tube they were hitting her with. Since torture had already been accepted as having occurred. She should have been acquitted IMO

It's justice upside down. The torture saga should have been settled before the murder trial.

If the reason that they were advised not to take the stand was to avoid having their "confessions" read out as evidence, then they could have taken the stand as the confessions would have been null and void, presumably.

The only other reason that I can think of is that by the time of the trial they'd been set against each other, each convinced that the other was responsible for whatever they believed had happened to her and they may have screwed up in court and blamed each other. However, some gentle pre-trial preparation to just tell the truth and calm their nerves in the face of the daunting prospect of court could have been helpful.

Sadly, even if they'd been acquitted, the investigation into the disappearance wouldn't have been reopened until new evidence happened to waft onto a PJ desk... and even then there'd have been no guarantee that it didn't go into the vertical filing system, barring a body showing up.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 16, 2015, 01:07:10 PM
In that timeline, you missed out that they were supposed to have been having wild sex at the time ;)

Yes I did miss that, because I believe that it was no more than media propaganda and found to be not proved in court.

You might like this Carana. Better than some of the harsh photos of her
Leonor on TV 2004
Rather pretty and wearing that black top that so enraged Amaral.
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
Ahhh. Never wear a black top in a public appeal, even if you wear one twice a week. Or a dark green one that might be mistaken for black. Or red trousers. Secret message, there.

Don't wear yellow or mid-green, either - as that might be a cunning ploy to trick the public into thinking that you are hopeful. Nor white - very cunning.

Pink or blue might not be a good idea, either.

Orange and purple, if unfashionable, might make you seem to be a social misfit.

Best go naked. At least no one can judge you guilty on the basis of your clothes.

A bit tongue in cheek, but I would never have thought that a seasoned senior officer would have thought that wearing a black top for an appeal would be a sign of guilt. Unfortunately, it's true.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado.


He also said that the other sign was that she referred to her in the past tense. According to Barro da Costa, she replied in the past tense when media questions were addressed in the past tense.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Anna on July 21, 2015, 12:21:35 AM
Here you can see Leandro
RTP: 3rd Annivesary of disappearance of Joana Cipriano

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: sadie on July 25, 2015, 12:57:37 AM
Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

She was seen walking up the steps at the church.  That is three roads away and almost 250 metres distant.


Most people would NOT call that a neighbour, BUT instead a villager
Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: TrueSardine on June 27, 2020, 07:42:44 AM
Not really no, do you call this searching Carana? Also, feel free to translate or get a paid translation of the full STJ Acórdão, your personal translations are very poor, full of mistakes and yes, completely biased. It's unbelievable for me that you guys continue to defend two convicted murderers of a little child, just to create an excuse and parallel with the Maddie case. Her death was horrific, ffs.

Wishing the Administration, and everyone else, including people with other opinions about the case, all the best to overcome these difficult times.

Regards,

Joana Morais

"Apart from the reconstitution files and the witness and forensics evidence that is related to them and which corroborates them, it should be further stressed that several of the questioned witnesses mention the arguida’s [Leonor Cipriano] lack of concern over the minor’s “disappearance”, accepting it without despair or anguish. It should be noted that the arguida only goes to “search” the minor at the café between 10.30 and 11 p.m. (according to witness NN), more than two hours after CC [Joana] was there; she contacts nobody else to ask about CC’s whereabouts and it is not through her initiative that the GNR is contacted. It is further underlined that the arguida bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth (page 876), with which she washed the house on the 18th of September, and witnesses CC3 and CC4 mentioned that the cleanliness of the house’s floor and walls contrasted with the state of dirtiness of the rest of the house, namely as far as the dishes and clothes were concerned – this kind of cleanliness, under these circumstances, is only compatible with the desire to eliminate traces of blood that could have remained in the house." in https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html


Yes.

I went through the judgement of the murder trial, which is one of the most bizarre that I've ever read. Joana Morais & co translated half of it, but never got round to the rest, which is neutral to positive about Leonor.

Title: Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2020, 11:52:37 AM
Hello True Sardine,

In fact, I've acknowledged / shown appreciation for the time spent translating. You and your team have translated and posted some of the witness statements. However, I still haven't found translations for the others.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.msg106536#msg106536

Did your team ever find time to translate the rest and I just missed the link?

ETA: corrected link to witness statements.