UK Justice Forum

UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:20:32 PM

Title: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:20:32 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

58
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:42:56 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

Trade deals can't be excised until we leave the EU, and that has to be ratified by a majority of the countries in the EU.  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm22R7cXEAA7FVL.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:52:44 PM
Trade deals can't be excised until we leave the EU, and that has to be ratified by a majority of the countries in the EU.  ?{)(**

Which part of pre negotiation don't you comprehend?  As for the Pound, isn't it brilliant for our manufacturers and that was even before the vote!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678539/Brexit-boost-exports-British-EU-vote-referndum
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:55:10 PM
Which part of pre negotiation don't you comprehend?  As for the Pound, isn't it brilliant for our manufacturers?

I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:58:06 PM
 8(*(b
I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2015. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machines, engines, pumps: US$63.9 billion (13.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $53 billion (11.5%)
Vehicles: $50.7 billion (11%)
Pharmaceuticals: $36 billion (7.8%)
Oil: $33.2 billion (7.2%)
Electronic equipment: $29 billion (6.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $18.9 billion (4.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $18.4 billion (4%)
Organic chemicals: $14 billion (3%)
Plastics: $11.8 billion (2.6%)
Aircraft and spacecraft were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 18.2% for the 5-year period starting in 2011.
In second place for improving export sales vehicles which were up 10.2% led by cars and work trucks.
UK pharmaceuticals posted the third-fastest gain in value at 8.4%.

2016 figures should well impress!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 06:01:58 PM
The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2015. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machines, engines, pumps: US$63.9 billion (13.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $53 billion (11.5%)
Vehicles: $50.7 billion (11%)
Pharmaceuticals: $36 billion (7.8%)
Oil: $33.2 billion (7.2%)
Electronic equipment: $29 billion (6.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $18.9 billion (4.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $18.4 billion (4%)
Organic chemicals: $14 billion (3%)
Plastics: $11.8 billion (2.6%)
Aircraft and spacecraft were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 18.2% for the 5-year period starting in 2011.
In second place for improving export sales vehicles which were up 10.2% led by cars and work trucks.
UK pharmaceuticals posted the third-fastest gain in value at 8.4%.

2016 figures should well impress!!

No which of these companies are UK owned ?

Likewise, how many will re-locate  ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 06:05:23 PM
No which of these companies are UK owned ?

Likewise, how many will re-locate  ?

I suggest you try Google.  UK companies are so sought after, just look at ARM Holdings.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
I suggest you try Google.  UK companies are so sought after, just look at ARM Holdings.

Which UK owned companies ?

Indeed , now own by the Japanese, which is where the profits will go to.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 07:21:21 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

More or less predictable.  Once the election was out of the way and the new Executive was formed it was down to business and BrExit was top of the agenda.  I take back what I previously said about Theresa, she has certainly started with an ALL GUNS BLAZING approach!  It seems that most commentators agree, she was unwilling to show this side while under the control of Cameron.  Could Theresa be the STEEL LADY?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 07:45:44 PM
More or less predictable.  Once the election was out of the way and the new Executive was formed it was down to business and BrExit was top of the agenda.  I take back what I previously said about Theresa, she has certainly started with an ALL GUNS BLAZING approach!  It seems that most commentators agree, she was unwilling to show this side while under the control of Cameron.  Could Theresa be the STEEL LADY?

All deals in the wind and subject to the conditions of leaving the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
All deals in the wind and subject to the conditions of leaving the EU.

Absolutely, all things are interdependent.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 20, 2016, 09:20:52 PM
I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/
Kelvin Diesels, Weir Pumps (oops they are both Scottish so may not count in the future). TVR and Morgan Automobiles. Astra Zeneca Pharma. well the half of it that isn't Scandawegian. Even a large chunk of "our" gas storage systems are owned by AyDayEff. Perkins Diesels ; belay that they are owned by Caterpillar..... &%+((£.
JCB hooray. GEA err sorry German.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: sadie on July 21, 2016, 02:25:46 AM
Kelvin Diesels, Weir Pumps (oops they are both Scottish so may not count in the future). TVR and Morgan Automobiles. Astra Zeneca Pharma. well the half of it that isn't Scandawegian. Even a large chunk of "our" gas storage systems are owned by AyDayEff. Perkins Diesels ; belay that they are owned by Caterpillar..... &%+((£.
JCB hooray. GEA err sorry German.

WE used to have a thriving British industry ... but it has almost all gone

Without this Industry, how are we going to survive?

Morgan and TVR and JCB, although all quality industries are not going to keep us afloat; they are too small.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 21, 2016, 03:02:57 PM
WE used to have a thriving British industry ... but it has almost all gone

Without this Industry, how are we going to survive?

Morgan and TVR and JCB, although all quality industries are not going to keep us afloat; they are too small.

1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: sadie on July 22, 2016, 12:58:18 AM
1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?
With people fighting for jobs and wages very likely down + the low level of the pound, yep, they will be queuing up to use British skills and expertise.  But the big bucks will be landing in the pockets of the overseas owners. 

We, little Englanders, will not see many benefits.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2016, 12:59:49 PM
With people fighting for jobs and wages very likely down + the low level of the pound, yep, they will be queuing up to use British skills and expertise.  But the big bucks will be landing in the pockets of the overseas owners. 

We, little Englanders, will not see many benefits.


The main British skills and expertise were spreading corruption, cricket and overbearing bureaucracy around the world. Tongue in cheek slightly and picking a fight wherever they go.

The British are good inventors, to a point, who lack the production and marketing skills to make a killing. The Brits are good at, to paraphrase Carl Perkins, "kicking open the door then being stompled in the rush".


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 23, 2016, 03:08:55 PM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/

I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2016, 07:26:36 PM
I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.

My guess is she has long since worked that one out.............watch this space.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 02:22:02 AM
I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.

Those Court actions have no effect.  It is Parliament which decides the Laws in this country, the Courts merely enforce them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2016, 09:34:53 AM
Those Court actions have no effect.  It is Parliament which decides the Laws in this country, the Courts merely enforce them.

Again, are you aware of the nature of the court actions ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on July 24, 2016, 11:33:14 AM
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.

Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
The Human Rights Act 1998.
The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.
These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am unclear from the above as to whether Parliament can or can't change the law in regard to UK & the EU.
Anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 12:31:51 PM
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.

Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
The Human Rights Act 1998.
The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.
These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am unclear from the above as to whether Parliament can or can't change the law in regard to UK & the EU.
Anyone?

Only Parliament can do so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on July 24, 2016, 12:49:38 PM
Only Parliament can do so.

Parliament has previously passed Acts which diluted its sovereignty.
Do we know for sure that the devolution of certain powers to Scotland & Wales means that those nations cannot use those powers to successfully challenge Parliament over an Act which will fundamentally alter their own status?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
Only Parliament can do so.

Governments can be challenged in Court John.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 24, 2016, 08:48:58 PM
Governments can be challenged in Court John.

Indeed Stephen, ask any human rights lawyer worth their 1.2 milion pound fees salt, how cruel and wicked our Government is by denying basic human rights to terrorists, convicted rapists,murderers, paedophiles and genocide agitators in there countries, to be deported, for trial in their own country for other crimes they are accused of. Our Government is always challenged on these issues. The rule of law is  If you fancy killing people it's ok...well if it involves being deported,home grown convicted killers just get jailed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 04, 2016, 12:58:50 PM
BOE has cut interest rate to an historic low of 0.25%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36976528

What's next?  Negative interest rates?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rush-to-withdraw-savings-as-threat-of-negative-rate-looms-pxzhxmq3n
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2016, 01:13:09 PM
Governments can be challenged in Court John.

Well naturally but when it suits they merely change the law.  Parliament and by extension the government are the supreme authority in this country.  Courts are merely a mechanism and not the panacea or elixir you appear to think they are.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2016, 01:23:11 PM
BOE has cut interest rate to an historic low of 0.25%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36976528

What's next?  Negative interest rates?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rush-to-withdraw-savings-as-threat-of-negative-rate-looms-pxzhxmq3n

Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
Well naturally but when it suits they merely change the law.  Parliament and by extension the government are the supreme authority in this country.  Courts are merely a mechanism and not the panacea or elixir you appear to think they are.

Courts are a back up.

As to Parliaments  *&*%£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!

 Not for long.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 04, 2016, 01:41:23 PM
It seems most of Europe want to follow our lead and have their own Referendum.  Unsurprisingly, lame ducks including Croatia, Romania and Portugal prefer to maintain the status quo.  Strangely however, Greece has also seen calls for a Referendum?

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-111890o.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 01:46:32 PM
It seems most of Europe want to follow our lead and have their own Referendum.

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-111890o.jpg)

And the goal of a disintegrated Europe will be?

And who stands to profit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 04, 2016, 01:58:09 PM
And the goal of a disintegrated Europe will be?

And who stands to profit?

Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 04, 2016, 02:05:52 PM
Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!
Are you going to be quite so ebullient when your banks starts charging you for simply depositing money in your current account and using it to pay bills?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 04, 2016, 02:07:09 PM
Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 02:14:32 PM
Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.

What makes you think that, John?

What's the solution for high-speed security cooperation if existing agreements have to be renegotiated?

If Ireland and Scotland choose to remain, what practical measures will that entail? Not just for security, but also for commuters and businesses?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 02:17:19 PM
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...

That couldn't possibly be in any way related to his bromance with Russian oligarchs, of course...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 05, 2016, 03:10:29 PM
Are you going to be quite so ebullient when your banks starts charging you for simply depositing money in your current account and using it to pay bills?

Just like they used to "in the good old days" ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:18:25 PM
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...

The US is NATO or haven't you heard?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:24:59 PM
The US is NATO or haven't you heard?
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:30:28 PM
What makes you think that, John?

What's the solution for high-speed security cooperation if existing agreements have to be renegotiated?

If Ireland and Scotland choose to remain, what practical measures will that entail? Not just for security, but also for commuters and businesses?

The EU is a toothless entity Carana, it has never managed to end any conflicts, that is usually down to the US/UK alliance. Look at the Crimea recently and its pathetic posturing, how many more regions will Russia simple walk into and adopt?

The UK has never needed the EU to protect us, in fact it is the EU itself which is the danger.  We are very capable of maintaining alliances with each and every country in the EU without that organisation deciding tactics for us.

As for Scotland and N Ireland, the majority of the population did not vote to remain which speaks for itself. Scotland is currently enjoying a bit of a Nationalist revival but 1.5m hardly equates to much in a population of 6 million.  As for N Ireland, the remainers were mostly Nationalist and Republican voters who saw BrExit as something negative in an all Ireland context so no change there then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:33:26 PM
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?

The UK and western Europe is the US' front line of defence just as it was in 1945.  If Europe were to fall into the hands of some anti US rogue State then the US itself would be in great peril.  Work it out for yourself.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:34:28 PM
The EU is a toothless entity Carana, it has never managed to end any conflicts, that is usually down to the US/UK alliance. Look at the Crimea recently and its pathetic posturing, how many more regions will Russia simple walk into and adopt?

The UK has never needed the EU to protect us, in fact it is the EU itself which is the danger.  We are very capable of maintaining alliances with each and every country in the EU without that organisation deciding tactics for us.

As for Scotland and N Ireland, the majority of the population did not vote to remain which speaks for itself. Scotland is currently enjoying a bit of a Nationalist revival but 1.5m hardly equates to much in a population of 6 million.  As for N Ireland, the remainers were mostly Nationalist and Republican voters who saw BrExit as something negative in an all Ireland context so no change there then.
The majority of the UK did not vote to leave, so what point are you making with the above?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:35:56 PM
The UK and western Europe is the US' front line of defence just as it was in 1945.  If Europe were to fall into the hands of some anti US rogue State then the US itself would be in great peril.  Work it out for yourself.
Some rogue state like Russia you mean, fronted by Putin who is currently engaged in a love-in with the Donald?  What would you like me to work out exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2016, 04:28:09 PM
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?

I'm wondering as well. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one finding this situation somewhat scary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 10, 2016, 04:38:33 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on August 10, 2016, 05:15:29 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)

Burberry only has 2 production units in the UK, one in Castleford producing raincoats & a small facility in Keighley. Of its 500 worldwide stores, only 23 are in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burberry
Extra sales in the UK are just less sales in the purchasers' own countries of residence.

I wonder where the company pays their UK tax liability?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pricewaterhousecoopers-condemned-for-giving-misleading-evidence-to-parliament-and-promoting-tax-10027344.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 13, 2016, 11:02:55 AM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2016, 09:46:03 PM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.

Like Sports Direct  8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 13, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
The Sunday TImes is reporting that Brexit will be delayed until the end of 2019 (that's if it ever happens at all!)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on August 13, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.

poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: puglove on August 13, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value

davel!! You're back from your "gardening leave"!! Ho ho!!

Is poundland where you buy your pants and Crocs?     8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2016, 05:41:31 PM
@)(++(*    they never stop trying!

Well that is true of the brexit supporters. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2016, 07:54:08 PM
poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value

Why Davel, I have my standards, I always got for quality not price, hence why poundland is the very jobby for me. 8**8:/:

Little nic nic ( chief fish Sturgeon) Scottish dictator extraordinaire, is doing every thing, in her dictatorship castle to stop the nasty engerlish from taking us out of the EU, WELL how very,very dare they... Her education policy , and education ( sniggers) has let her down by not providing actual figures of who wanted to go and who wanted to stay just a bland percent of a figure  which did not reflect the (will of the people) at all. Talk about making it up!  what she and many others don't get is the Scottish people,  nay the MAJORITY of the Scottish people did not want to leave the UK, So as the UK voted to leave she has no real case to complain, seems she doesn't like the Scottish people doing things like erm.. voting. So what her new plan  is  is to have another Referendum to ask the Scottish people to leave the UK but to stay in the EU.... Erm scuse me Mrs English Prime minister can we use your air space to fly to the EU countries?   what a corker she is!..an you renew my visa for Cornwall?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2016, 05:10:45 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 31, 2016, 06:12:22 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143

Deliver what exactly ?

A rose by any other name...........................
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 31, 2016, 07:27:57 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143

She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 31, 2016, 07:34:18 PM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.

Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2016, 12:33:36 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)


Why are you posting a graph showing blue lines that date back to 2015?

Obviously any country with a weak currency will attract tourists and temporarily boost exports.

I'm not sure that I understand what you find positive beyond the short-term.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2016, 12:40:27 PM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.


That is a vast issue. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2016, 03:51:06 PM
Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.

I believe Prime Ministers, like CEO's are able to delegate. You tell the experts what you want to achieve and they come back with a plan for your approval.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
I believe Prime Ministers, like CEO's are able to delegate. You tell the experts what you want to achieve and they come back with a plan for your approval.

You mean like Jeremy Hunt's success with the dispute with the Junior Doctors.  8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 01, 2016, 05:11:01 PM
Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.

Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
You mean like Jeremy Hunt's success with the dispute with the Junior Doctors.  8)-)))

Quite. He gets the blame not the PM.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2016, 06:12:46 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Brexit has not started. 8)--))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2016, 08:08:38 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Do we know if these are "boneyfied" UK manufacturing companies or if the lions share is taken up by German,American, Chinese and Japanese companies with manufacturing plant here?

I guess on the genewine front JCB figure in it somewhere but who else?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on September 01, 2016, 08:41:02 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Increased sales, increased overheads, less profit. Sounds like the road to destruction.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 01:31:43 AM
Brexit has not started. 8)--))

Really?  Best let Theresa May know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2016, 05:11:40 AM
Really?  Best let Theresa May know.

So John has article 50 been implemented ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 10:39:24 AM
May tells Sturgeon.."We will decide Brexit terms"!

(http://i.imgur.com/Gw3u3L2.png?1)

By Charlie Peat
2nd September 2016

FROZEN OUT: Sturgeon furious as Theresa May tells SNP boss 'WE will decide Brexit terms'

BITTER Nicola Sturgeon has blasted Theresa May after the Prime Minister signalled Scottish ministers will be frozen out of Brexit discussions.

Mrs May told her Cabinet that the Government would “establish the terms” of Brexit and decide when to trigger Article 50 instead of consulting with Scotland and Wales.

The Prime Minister’s slap down of Sturgeon has left the Europhile seething as she warned curbing EU migration would be disastrous for Scotland’s population.

A spokesman for Sturgeon said Mrs May’s Tory Government was in an “increasingly unacceptable and irresponsible position”.

He added that the Tory leader had given a “very clear undertaking when they met recently that she is prepared to consider options that the Scottish Government puts forward to protect Scotland's interests”.

Mrs May travelled to Edinburgh in July to hold talks with the SNP leader and told her she would not trigger Article 50 until she had found a “UK approach” and was “willing to listen to options” about Scotland’s EU relationship.

But Sturgeon was dealt a further blow when the Prime Minister dismissed giving Scotland a second independence referendum.

Despite facing a freeze out from Whitehall, a Downing Street spokesman said the cabinet was committed to ensuring Scots get a fair deal from Brexit.

But he said: “Cabinet members were clear that it is the United Kingdom's Government's decision to establish its terms and on when to trigger Article 50 and begin negotiations."

Mrs May met with her cabinet at Chequers on Wednesday and made it clear there would be no second referendum despite calls from bitter Europhiles.

In the meeting, the Prime Minister said: “We must continue to be very clear that 'Brexit means Brexit’, that we’re going to make a success of it.

“That means there’s no second referendum; no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door; that we’re actually going to deliver on this.”

A Number 10 spokesman added: “Ministers agreed that we should be seizing the opportunity of Brexit to confirm the UK’s place as one of the great trading nations in the world, fostering entrepreneurialism and setting out a long-term vision for the country.

“They also agreed on the vital need to increase productivity and the importance of doing more to foster economic growth and industrial development in regions up and down the country.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706046/Nicola-Sturgeon-Theresa-May-frozen-SNP-Brexit-Scotland-European-Union-EU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2016, 11:32:42 AM
May tells Sturgeon.."We will decide Brexit terms"!

(http://i.imgur.com/Gw3u3L2.png?1)

By Charlie Peat
2nd September 2016

FROZEN OUT: Sturgeon furious as Theresa May tells SNP boss 'WE will decide Brexit terms'

BITTER Nicola Sturgeon has blasted Theresa May after the Prime Minister signalled Scottish ministers will be frozen out of Brexit discussions.

Mrs May told her Cabinet that the Government would “establish the terms” of Brexit and decide when to trigger Article 50 instead of consulting with Scotland and Wales.

The Prime Minister’s slap down of Sturgeon has left the Europhile seething as she warned curbing EU migration would be disastrous for Scotland’s population.

A spokesman for Sturgeon said Mrs May’s Tory Government was in an “increasingly unacceptable and irresponsible position”.

He added that the Tory leader had given a “very clear undertaking when they met recently that she is prepared to consider options that the Scottish Government puts forward to protect Scotland's interests”.

Mrs May travelled to Edinburgh in July to hold talks with the SNP leader and told her she would not trigger Article 50 until she had found a “UK approach” and was “willing to listen to options” about Scotland’s EU relationship.

But Sturgeon was dealt a further blow when the Prime Minister dismissed giving Scotland a second independence referendum.

Despite facing a freeze out from Whitehall, a Downing Street spokesman said the cabinet was committed to ensuring Scots get a fair deal from Brexit.

But he said: “Cabinet members were clear that it is the United Kingdom's Government's decision to establish its terms and on when to trigger Article 50 and begin negotiations."

Mrs May met with her cabinet at Chequers on Wednesday and made it clear there would be no second referendum despite calls from bitter Europhiles.

In the meeting, the Prime Minister said: “We must continue to be very clear that 'Brexit means Brexit’, that we’re going to make a success of it.

“That means there’s no second referendum; no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door; that we’re actually going to deliver on this.”

A Number 10 spokesman added: “Ministers agreed that we should be seizing the opportunity of Brexit to confirm the UK’s place as one of the great trading nations in the world, fostering entrepreneurialism and setting out a long-term vision for the country.

“They also agreed on the vital need to increase productivity and the importance of doing more to foster economic growth and industrial development in regions up and down the country.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706046/Nicola-Sturgeon-Theresa-May-frozen-SNP-Brexit-Scotland-European-Union-EU

Good for them. Until the majority of Scots and Welsh vote to leave The United Kingdom they are in it for better or worse. The last time I looked the UK Government was Theresa May's mob in Westminster not some devolved groups north of Hadrian's Wall or west of Offa's Dyke.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2016, 03:47:17 PM
Good for them. Until the majority of Scots and Welsh vote to leave The United Kingdom they are in it for better or worse. The last time I looked the UK Government was Theresa May's mob in Westminster not some devolved groups north of Hadrian's Wall or west of Offa's Dyke.

 8@??)( Well said!
 Many other Scots I know are fed up with old nick bumping her gums about what Scotland needs. We do not need open borders for any Tom,Dick or Harry to walk in demanding housing, and benefits,access to 'free' education fee health care and anything else they can think of ( for the record they are all suffering from some disorder so can claim disability benefits) only for the work shy. etc.

 We do need decent people who come to work and be part of our communities. This is called  immigration, and or work permits can be allowed-not benefit claiming permits as has been happening. Nick is still in her PC Brigade  mode with her fanciful ideas about multiculturalism being a good thing for Scotland. The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK government gets the say so. The UK as a whole voted Brexit, the UK Government gets the say so.
 
I am really fed up with the English hating rhetoric emanating from SNP. Thank goodness May is ignoring her.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
8@??)( Well said!
 Many other Scots I know are fed up with old nick bumping her gums about what Scotland needs. We do not need open borders for any Tom,Dick or Harry to walk in demanding housing, and benefits,access to 'free' education fee health care and anything else they can think of ( for the record they are all suffering from some disorder so can claim disability benefits) only for the work shy. etc.

 We do need decent people who come to work and be part of our communities. This is called  immigration, and or work permits can be allowed-not benefit claiming permits as has been happening. Nick is still in her PC Brigade  mode with her fanciful ideas about multiculturalism being a good thing for Scotland. The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK government gets the say so. The UK as a whole voted Brexit, the UK Government gets the say so.
 
I am really fed up with the English hating rhetoric emanating from SNP. Thank goodness May is ignoring her.

With a population estimated at just over 5 million Scotland has to realise that in sheer people terms they represent a mere 7% of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2016, 06:20:52 PM
With a population estimated at just over 5 million Scotland has to realise that in sheer people terms they represent a mere 7% of the UK.

Dare one say fewer indeed that some other ethnic minorities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 04, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
Theresa May: UK will be 'global leader in free trade'  8((()*/

The UK will be a "global leader" in free trade following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has said, as she heads to China for the G20 summit.

Speaking at Heathrow ahead of her first international conference since becoming prime minister, she insisted it was a "golden era" for UK-China relations.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000263889346.jpg)

Before boarding an RAF plane to eastern China, she told reporters: "The message for the G20 is that Britain is open for business, as a bold, confident, outward-looking country we will be playing a key role on the world stage.

"This is a golden era for UK-China relations and one of the things I will be doing at the G20 is obviously talking to President Xi about how we can develop the strategic partnership that we have between the UK and China.

"But I will also be talking to other world leaders about how we can develop free trade around the world and Britain wants to seize those opportunities.

"My ambition is that Britain will be a global leader in free trade.".  8@??)(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257006
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 04, 2016, 12:45:51 AM
Australia eager to sign UK deal as Theresa May boosts Brexit at G20

AUSTRALIA is poised to sign a landmark trade deal with Britain as Theresa May tells the world that the UK is “open for business”.

Tomorrow Mrs May will meet Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who has already signalled that Australia will want to negotiate an important trade deal with the UK.

Speaking before the summit, she said: “We are going to make a success of Brexit and one way we will do that is by playing to Britain’s strengths as a great trading nation and forging our own new trade deals around the world.

Following the introductory phone call between Mrs May and Mr Turnbull in July, officials from the Department for International Trade have been in discussions about the expertise that Australia can offer, having themselves negotiated five free trade agreements in the last three years as well as the multilateral Trans Pacific Partnership.

This week a team of UK Government officials will hold talks in Canberra with their Australian counterparts about establishing a trade negotiating team.

The Australian government has also offered to send experienced negotiators to the UK. New Zealand and Canada are among other countries to have also offered the Government expertise. Later this month, one of New Zealand’s top trade negotiators will fly to London to provide support for officials in the Department for International Trade.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706997/Australia-eager-sign-UK-deal-Theresa-May-boosts-Brexit-G20-China-summit-turnbull
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2016, 11:22:44 AM
Theresa May: UK will be 'global leader in free trade'  8((()*/

The UK will be a "global leader" in free trade following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has said, as she heads to China for the G20 summit.

Speaking at Heathrow ahead of her first international conference since becoming prime minister, she insisted it was a "golden era" for UK-China relations.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000263889346.jpg)

Before boarding an RAF plane to eastern China, she told reporters: "The message for the G20 is that Britain is open for business, as a bold, confident, outward-looking country we will be playing a key role on the world stage.

"This is a golden era for UK-China relations and one of the things I will be doing at the G20 is obviously talking to President Xi about how we can develop the strategic partnership that we have between the UK and China.

"But I will also be talking to other world leaders about how we can develop free trade around the world and Britain wants to seize those opportunities.

"My ambition is that Britain will be a global leader in free trade.".  8@??)(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257006

..and pigs could evolve wings. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
Australia eager to sign UK deal as Theresa May boosts Brexit at G20

AUSTRALIA is poised to sign a landmark trade deal with Britain as Theresa May tells the world that the UK is “open for business”.

Tomorrow Mrs May will meet Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who has already signalled that Australia will want to negotiate an important trade deal with the UK.

Speaking before the summit, she said: “We are going to make a success of Brexit and one way we will do that is by playing to Britain’s strengths as a great trading nation and forging our own new trade deals around the world.

Following the introductory phone call between Mrs May and Mr Turnbull in July, officials from the Department for International Trade have been in discussions about the expertise that Australia can offer, having themselves negotiated five free trade agreements in the last three years as well as the multilateral Trans Pacific Partnership.

This week a team of UK Government officials will hold talks in Canberra with their Australian counterparts about establishing a trade negotiating team.

The Australian government has also offered to send experienced negotiators to the UK. New Zealand and Canada are among other countries to have also offered the Government expertise. Later this month, one of New Zealand’s top trade negotiators will fly to London to provide support for officials in the Department for International Trade.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706997/Australia-eager-sign-UK-deal-Theresa-May-boosts-Brexit-G20-China-summit-turnbull

Now remind John, when can deals be signed ?

Second, when will Brexit begin ?  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 04, 2016, 06:39:16 PM
"Japan's government has warned that Brexit could result in the country's firms moving their European head offices out of Britain.

The strongly worded report from Japan's foreign ministry says the firms might want to move "if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK".

It calls on Theresa May's government to deal with the companies' concerns in a "responsible manner".

Downing Street received the report earlier this week, the BBC understands.

Japanese firms employ an estimated 140,000 workers in the UK, with Nomura bank, manufacturing giant Hitachi and carmakers Honda, Nissan and Toyota all having major bases in the country.

The letter warns: "Japanese businesses with their European headquarters in the UK may decide to transfer their head-office function to Continental Europe if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK after its withdrawal."

Japan's government has warned that Brexit could result in the country's firms moving their European head offices out of Britain.

The strongly worded report from Japan's foreign ministry says the firms might want to move "if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK".

It calls on Theresa May's government to deal with the companies' concerns in a "responsible manner".

Downing Street received the report earlier this week, the BBC understands.

Japanese firms employ an estimated 140,000 workers in the UK, with Nomura bank, manufacturing giant Hitachi and carmakers Honda, Nissan and Toyota all having major bases in the country.

The letter warns: "Japanese businesses with their European headquarters in the UK may decide to transfer their head-office function to Continental Europe if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK after its withdrawal."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2016, 03:09:49 PM

"In truth May and her team may have little idea what the final Brexit settlement will look like and, as they try to craft a deal acceptable to both Nigel Farage, the CBI and the EU, the outcome is likely to emerge slowly and haphazardly. (That’s why David Cameron once said a Brexit vote would mean “three years of Euro-wank".)"

The boy had a certain sense of style after all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 14, 2016, 07:21:25 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on November 14, 2016, 07:28:46 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Great idea.  The west coast and the east coast states should exit leaving the shitty states in the middle to indulge in Trump Love alone.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 14, 2016, 07:31:22 PM
Great idea.  The west coast and the east coast states should exit leaving the shitty states in the middle to indulge in Trump Love alone.

I would love to see that.

After all, if that is the democratic wish of the residents of those States, brexiters should all be behind them, metaphorically as opposed to literally. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 14, 2016, 10:43:30 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*

It could well be, and it could lead to another civil war in USA. The situation would be those who support Clinton and her open door policy- who would be unabe to contain a criminal element in 'her' states, if they moved on out into those states which do not want them then....oh dear!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mercury on November 14, 2016, 10:47:30 PM
"In truth May and her team may have little idea what the final Brexit settlement will look like and, as they try to craft a deal acceptable to both Nigel Farage, the CBI and the EU, the outcome is likely to emerge slowly and haphazardly. (That’s why David Cameron once said a Brexit vote would mean “three years of Euro-wank".)"

The boy had a certain sense of style after all.

Yes the style of a 6 year old in a sweet shop and chosng the PM sweet
Then never losing the 6 yr old trousers
Total tosser
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 15, 2016, 02:37:15 AM
It could well be, and it could lead to another civil war in USA. The situation would be those who support Clinton and her open door policy- who would be unabe to contain a criminal element in 'her' states, if they moved on out into those states which do not want them then....oh dear!

What ?

Maybe, just maybe, a large  percentage of the population have no wish to be trumped.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 15, 2016, 10:13:03 AM

' Leaked Brexit memo: no single plan and Whitehall is struggling to cope

Leaked Cabinet Office document reported to say departments overwhelmed with Brexit work and ministers split on strategy'


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/whitehall-struggling-to-cope-with-scale-of-work-arising-from-brexit-vote

Oh, what a surprise. I never expected that in a million years. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 06:41:37 PM
I did expect it. we are entering a new phase in our countries history. Early days yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 07:15:38 PM
I did expect it. we are entering a new phase in our countries history. Early days yet.

...and now within the court system.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 07:35:01 PM
...and now within the court system.

A minor set back...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 07:39:17 PM
A minor set back...

Perhaps you should ask Teresa May, after all, she is an expert in UK Law. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 08:22:45 PM
Perhaps you should ask Teresa May, after all, she is an expert in UK Law. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Laws can challenged.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 09:33:30 PM
Laws can challenged.

Let's see what the Supreme Court says about this.

I can't post a link right now as regards this, but I will tomorrow, and if correct in it's contents, it could well put a major dampener on May's plans.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 10:08:25 PM
Let's see what the Supreme Court says about this.

I can't post a link right now as regards this, but I will tomorrow, and if correct in it's contents, it could well put a major dampener on May's plans.

It is worth remebering the UK public did not vOte for the EU in its form, we voted for a common market. so there is no valid mandate to force us to stay in really. Also, what are the Europeans going to do if we refuse to give benefits to all and sundry... Kill us? hahaha

It is also worth remebring that Ireland voted no against EU and it was deleted to be re done for the only out come the EU would accept.  They didn't vote for the people who made those laws.. you couldn't make it up .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 10:10:37 PM
It is worth remebering the UK public did not vOte for the EU in its form, we voted for a common market. so there is no valid mandate to force us to stay in really. Also, what are the Europeans going to do if we refuse to give benefits to all and sundry... Kill us? hahaha

It is also worth remebring that Ireland voted no against EU and it was deleted to be re done for the only out come the EU would accept.  They didn't vote for the people who made those laws.. you couldn't make it up .


Wait for the link tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 18, 2016, 07:39:35 AM
' Supreme court judge hints at legal hitch that could seriously delay Brexit '

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/supreme-court-judges-views-on-article-50-legislation-anger-leave-campaigners

A supreme court judge has raised the prospect that Theresa May would have to comprehensively replace existing EU legislation before the government could even begin Brexit, in a move that could seriously delay the process.

In a speech that angered leave campaigners, Lady Hale said the supreme court judges could go further than simply forcing May to publish a short piece of legislation to approve the triggering of article 50.

The deputy president of the court said that next month’s case – in which the supreme court will hear the government’s appeal against a high court ruling that MPs must approve the triggering of article 50 – raised “difficult and delicate issues” about the relationship between government and parliament.

“Another question is whether it would be enough for a simple act of parliament to authorise the government to give notice, or whether it would have to be a comprehensive replacement of the 1972 act,” she said in comments to law students in Kuala Lumpur that were published online on Tuesday. The European Communities Act 1972 took the UK into the then European Economic Community.

Hale set out the arguments on both sides of what is expected to be the most constitutionally significant case ever heard by the supreme court. She told the students that while 51.9% of the British electorate had voted to leave the EU, “that referendum was not legally binding on parliament”.

She put forward the argument that the government was likely to make, saying it would suggest: “The basis on which the referendum was undertaken was that the government would give effect to the result. Beginning the process would not change the law.”

The comments come amid reports that the government has prepared a short three-line bill aimed at helping May stick to her March deadline for triggering article 50 if the supreme court ruled that was necessary. Ministers are said to have drawn up short legislation that would be difficult to amend.

Hale is one of 11 judges due to hear the case at the supreme court, which comes after the high court ruling immediately triggered a backlash from some politicians and rightwing media. The Daily Mail described the judges as “enemies of the people”.

The former work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Hale had pro-EU views and warned that it was not the job of judges to tell parliament what to do. Duncan Smith said: “This is a very big step. If they were to do this it’s a constitutional crisis. What the judges will decide on at the supreme court is whether or not the government can use its executive powers to trigger article 5

“It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide.”

He said “the individual concerned” had always opposed Britain leaving the EU, and said that he did not believe that would be a majority view in the supreme court.

The Conservative MP Dominic Raab said: “If judges dip their toes in political waters by making speeches outside the courtroom, they are asking to get splashed back.”

Raab did not question whether the comments suggested which way Hale would sway but argued that she simply should not have made any public comments. “I’m all for democratic debate. But you can’t have it both ways. If such a senior judge muses in public about a pending supreme court judgment, the judiciary can hardly scream blue murder if politicians, the media or public respond,” he said.

After the outcry over the high court ruling, the prime minister was told to calm the “mob”, with the former attorney general Dominic Grieve saying the coverage “started to make one think that one was living in Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe”.

Other Brexit supporters also lashed out at Hale’s lecture. Sir Bill Cash, a Tory MP and chairman of the European scrutiny committee, said: “I am astounded that a justice of the supreme court would venture into this territory before hearing the evidence of the case. It appears completely contrary to the proper relationship between the courts and parliament for her to suggest what parliament should do.”

A supreme court spokesman said that Hale was simply presenting the arguments from both sides of the article 50 appeal in an impartial way for an audience of law students as part of a wider lecture on constitutional law, and it was proper for judges to set out arguments in high-profile cases to help public understanding of the issues involved in an even-handed way.

“One of the questions raised in these proceedings is what form of legislation would be necessary for parliament to be able to lawfully trigger article 50, if the government loses its appeal,” the spokesman said. “A number of politicians have raised the same question. Though it was not dealt with explicitly in the high court judgment, it is not a new issue. In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be.”


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 25, 2016, 06:27:08 PM
'Boris Johnson is a clown who has united the EU against Britain'

Britain can be proud of itself. Once again, it had already shown the world the way. In propelling Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage to triumph on 23 June, it demonstrated well before 8 November that Donald Trump was nothing new.

In fact foolishness, vulgarity, inconsistency and irresponsibility seem actually to be British inventions that have been painstakingly copied – once more – by the Americans.

The age of such drab characters as Margaret Thatcher and David Cameron is over. No more, it appears, must we suffer leaders equipped with a brain and a sense of the common interest. The hour of the political clown has come.

In a few short weeks, Boris Johnson, the former journalist – for whom facts were never an obstacle likely to get in the way of a good story – has succeeded in squandering what little sympathy and understanding was left in Europe for a Great Britain embroiled in the mess of this referendum.

It is quite some diplomatic achievement to have succeeded in uniting, as never before, the 27 remaining members of the European Union – including Germany and the Netherlands – who are all now firmly together in deciding to do the UK no favours whatsoever.

It will be a “hard Brexit” not because that is what Theresa May wants, but because her future ex-partners consider they have no choice faced with a Great Britain so resolutely indecisive.

 There are liars and then there’s Boris Johnson and Michael Gove

Johnson has deeply annoyed his continental partners by displaying, firstly, his complete ignorance of the union (perhaps not altogether surprising if you knew him as a “journalist” in Brussels, as I did). According to his very personal interpretation of the European treaties, it is “bollocks” to say that the four fundamental freedoms (free movement of people, goods, services and capital) are inseparable.

“Everybody now has it in their head that every human being has some fundamental God-given right to move wherever they want,” he said earlier this month.

For Johnson, here there can of course be a “dynamic trade relationship and we will take back control of our borders, but we remain an open and welcoming society”.

Yet the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, warned him very clearly as early as September. “We’ll happily send Her Majesty’s foreign minister a copy of the Lisbon treaty,” he said. “He can then read about the fact that there’s a certain connection between the single market and the four freedoms. At a pinch, I can talk about it in English.”

Schäuble reiterated on 18 November that there “will be no à la carte menu. There is only the whole menu or none.” His Dutch colleague Jeroen Dijsselbloem, meanwhile, hammered the message home: Johnson is spouting stuff that is “intellectually impossible” and “politically unachievable”.

 
Nevertheless, Johnson repeats his mantra ad infinitum: he is right, and the others are all wrong. The problem, however, is that at the end of the day it is the others who will decide. And if you want something from someone, it is generally wiser to avoid telling them they are an idiot.

But the foreign secretary adds clumsiness to ignorance. Johnson – who has, remember, written a biography of Winston Churchill – does not seem to grasp that it takes a mind with a rare degree of finesse to be able to combine humour and diplomacy.

His quip that the Italians would sell less prosecco to Britain if the UK was not able to stay in the single market not only created a diplomatic incident, but underlined the obvious weakness of the British argument: if the EU risks losing access to a market of 64 million Brits, Britain will lose access to a market of 440 million Europeans.


Stay out of EU affairs, leading MEP tells British government
 
And last but not least, Johnson, who himself raised the spectre of hordes of Turkish citizens arriving in the UK if it stayed in the union, now steps up as as the most ardent defender there is of Ankara joining the EU – even if it reintroduces the death penalty.

“I can no longer respect this,” raged the normally placid Manfred Weber, leader of the conservative EPP group in the European parliament. “When you want to leave a club, you have no say anymore in the long-term future of this club.”

A famous French screenwriter Michel Audiard coined a phrase in the early 1960s that applies perfectly to Johnson: “Les cons, ça ose tout, c’est même à ça qu’on les reconnaît.” This means, roughly: “Fools” (to choose a relatively inoffensive rendering) “will try anything – that’s how you know they’re fools.”

The foreign secretary, who like Trump is no fan of beating about the bush, will pardon my familiarity. Or perhaps not.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/25/boris-johnson-clown-eu-britain-foreign-secretary

I see one of the comments summed it up to a tee................

'Brexshitte'. with an extra 't' and 'e'  added.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
' Supreme court judge hints at legal hitch that could seriously delay Brexit '

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/supreme-court-judges-views-on-article-50-legislation-anger-leave-campaigners

A supreme court judge has raised the prospect that Theresa May would have to comprehensively replace existing EU legislation before the government could even begin Brexit, in a move that could seriously delay the process.

In a speech that angered leave campaigners, Lady Hale said the supreme court judges could go further than simply forcing May to publish a short piece of legislation to approve the triggering of article 50.

The deputy president of the court said that next month’s case – in which the supreme court will hear the government’s appeal against a high court ruling that MPs must approve the triggering of article 50 – raised “difficult and delicate issues” about the relationship between government and parliament.

“Another question is whether it would be enough for a simple act of parliament to authorise the government to give notice, or whether it would have to be a comprehensive replacement of the 1972 act,” she said in comments to law students in Kuala Lumpur that were published online on Tuesday. The European Communities Act 1972 took the UK into the then European Economic Community.

Hale set out the arguments on both sides of what is expected to be the most constitutionally significant case ever heard by the supreme court. She told the students that while 51.9% of the British electorate had voted to leave the EU, “that referendum was not legally binding on parliament”.

She put forward the argument that the government was likely to make, saying it would suggest: “The basis on which the referendum was undertaken was that the government would give effect to the result. Beginning the process would not change the law.”

The comments come amid reports that the government has prepared a short three-line bill aimed at helping May stick to her March deadline for triggering article 50 if the supreme court ruled that was necessary. Ministers are said to have drawn up short legislation that would be difficult to amend.

Hale is one of 11 judges due to hear the case at the supreme court, which comes after the high court ruling immediately triggered a backlash from some politicians and rightwing media. The Daily Mail described the judges as “enemies of the people”.

The former work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Hale had pro-EU views and warned that it was not the job of judges to tell parliament what to do. Duncan Smith said: “This is a very big step. If they were to do this it’s a constitutional crisis. What the judges will decide on at the supreme court is whether or not the government can use its executive powers to trigger article 5

“It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide.”

He said “the individual concerned” had always opposed Britain leaving the EU, and said that he did not believe that would be a majority view in the supreme court.

The Conservative MP Dominic Raab said: “If judges dip their toes in political waters by making speeches outside the courtroom, they are asking to get splashed back.”

Raab did not question whether the comments suggested which way Hale would sway but argued that she simply should not have made any public comments. “I’m all for democratic debate. But you can’t have it both ways. If such a senior judge muses in public about a pending supreme court judgment, the judiciary can hardly scream blue murder if politicians, the media or public respond,” he said.

After the outcry over the high court ruling, the prime minister was told to calm the “mob”, with the former attorney general Dominic Grieve saying the coverage “started to make one think that one was living in Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe”.

Other Brexit supporters also lashed out at Hale’s lecture. Sir Bill Cash, a Tory MP and chairman of the European scrutiny committee, said: “I am astounded that a justice of the supreme court would venture into this territory before hearing the evidence of the case. It appears completely contrary to the proper relationship between the courts and parliament for her to suggest what parliament should do.”

A supreme court spokesman said that Hale was simply presenting the arguments from both sides of the article 50 appeal in an impartial way for an audience of law students as part of a wider lecture on constitutional law, and it was proper for judges to set out arguments in high-profile cases to help public understanding of the issues involved in an even-handed way.

“One of the questions raised in these proceedings is what form of legislation would be necessary for parliament to be able to lawfully trigger article 50, if the government loses its appeal,” the spokesman said. “A number of politicians have raised the same question. Though it was not dealt with explicitly in the high court judgment, it is not a new issue. In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be.”

Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...

Well golly gosh, perhaps it is time that you and others leave the twilight zone and face reality .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
 
Well golly gosh, perhaps it is time that you and others leave the twilight zone and face reality .
Facing it already... what will be will be. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2016, 05:34:16 PM
Facing it already... what will be will be. 8**8:/:

Since you ask, up Brexshitte without a paddle. 8)--)) 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2016, 05:45:10 PM
Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...

If Lady Hale said what the Grauniad reported she said then she would have been out of order. Under those circumstances one would hope that 'im wot percheth upon the Woolsack had a not so quiet word in her shell like.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on November 30, 2016, 01:35:32 PM
"We're Heading For A Trade War And We'll Lose"

Excellent article in today's Times by Danny Finkelstein:




Quote
We’ve got a secretary of state all dressed up and ready to negotiate. We’ll be out of the EU and looking out to the world. We’ll be out of the Customs Union, too, and able to do our own deals. A new era of global free trade beckons for this country. That, at least, is the idea. I just wish I was that confident.

In September 2009, under pressure from the United Steelworkers union, President Barack Obama imposed a new tax on car and truck tyres imported from China. Over three years, the tax rose to more than 35 per cent. And here, based on industry and government data, is what happened.

US importers stopped buying as many Chinese tyres. Of course they did. Instead, they bought them from Indonesia. Since these tyres were more expensive, domestic tyre manufacturers were able to put their prices up too and keep a bit more of the market. The combined effect cost the consumer $1.112 billion.

The policy did save some jobs. About 1,200 jobs in fact, each of them paying about $40,000 a year. So more than a billion pounds was extracted from consumers to save $48 million of jobs.

Unfortunately the tax didn’t even do that. As people spent more money on tyres, Indonesian and domestic, there was a drop in spending on other items. This cost more than 3,700 jobs. Given that tyre manufacturers are only one of the constituents of the United Steelworkers, it is possible that, together, the union and the president actually lost more members’ jobs than they saved. Certainly more jobs were lost than saved across the whole economy.


You would have thought that such an outcome would be so embarrassing that no one would mention it again. But in the 2012 presidential debates Mr Obama raised the topic, in order to congratulate himself on protecting tyre workers.

Now Donald Trump has been elected arguing that this nonsense was simply not good enough. There needs to be more of it.

Steve Bannon, Mr Trump’s chief strategist, gave an interview after the election rejecting charges that he was a racist. “I’m not a white nationalist,” he said. “I’m a nationalist. I’m an economic nationalist.” To this he added: “The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia.”

In Mr Trump’s first broadcast as president-elect, his very first promise was to abandon the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the trade deal between 12 countries signed in February. This nationalist position is economically illiterate, but politically powerful. And when Mr Bannon says he wants to make economic nationalism the basis of a world movement, I take him very seriously indeed.

The case made by economic nationalists against free trade is simply wrong in almost every particular. It’s wrong because it forgets that people who make goods also buy them. So the American working class that Mr Bannon claims to champion are enriched by trade not impoverished by it. The giant sucking sound that presidential candidate Ross Perot predicted as jobs departed to Mexico after the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement has not been heard.

It’s wrong because it ignores the fact that products are dependent upon each other. The limitations placed on sugar imports are designed to help the sugar producers but are a disaster for the food-processing industry. In the 1990s, the Lifesaver candy plant on Michigan produced about three million rolls of Lifesavers a day, employing 650 people. In 2002, to escape high sugar prices, it closed down and moved to Canada.

It’s wrong because it ignores the way that the competition provided by trade pushes up productivity, and it is rising productivity that lifts wages.

It is wrong because it looks at the creation of a middle class in Asia as bad for America and only possible at its expense. But it is good for everyone that NAFTA helped create a more prosperous, liberal and democratic Mexico. And TPP was a major part of the Japanese government’s strategy to restructure its economy, from which they would not be the only beneficiary. Does America not want them to spend more money on defence?

And most of all, it is wrong because it just isn’t true that trade is replacing high-paid jobs with low-paid ones. On the contrary, as Douglas Irwin argues cogently in his book Free Trade Under Fire, the evidence suggests that in advanced economies trade increases the proportion of high-paid to low-paid jobs. Workers with less skills are under pressure but this is because of new technology, and not because of trade. The evidence on this is overwhelming.

So if economic nationalism is illiterate, why do I regard it as so politically powerful? And why do I worry about it coming here?

First, the costs of adjustment in the economy are usually concentrated on specific groups while the benefits are spread across many people. So it becomes economically worthwhile for groups of people losing out to resist adjustment, while not really worthwhile for the broad mass to spend energy on fighting back.

Technological change is hard to resist, while trade is much easier, even though trade isn’t really the problem. So as Labour begins to fight Ukip or a similar force in the north, economic nationalism may recommend itself to both sides. For Ukip it just fits, while for Labour it is a way of identifying with the pressures and nationalist instincts of core voters, without sacrificing their own liberalism on migration.

Britain has long been the world champion of free trade and this government will certainly wish to maintain that position. But we are now leaving the one big trade arrangement we have made and it has been decades since we last negotiated a free trade deal of our own. When we do, is it unduly pessimistic to wonder if we will all remain as united on free trade?

Any deal, with any country, will raise some of the sovereignty issues on the right that the EU raised. And on the left there will be concerns that any arrangement might undermine domestic regulation or workers’ rights. Moving to satisfy the right will increase problems with the left and vice versa.

Doubt me? Look at what happened over the proposed transatlantic deal with the EU, TTIP, which was opposed by right and left.

And at the same time there will be protectionist moves by other countries — the US under Mr Trump, the EU responding to Brexit politically rather than economically — all of which will encourage self-defeating British retaliation.

I don’t think I’ve ever ended a column feeling this more strongly: I really hope that I am wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2016, 10:53:16 PM
Private "Wur Doomed" Frazer rides again.
I don't see why the fuss about Trump wanting to pull out of TPP. No one has ratified it yet and it has mixed reviews from the experts.
There are also conflicting views why Japan became involved:
"Japan's main competition in the region is China, and the two nations have polar views on how the South-east Asia's economy should develop. Prior to the TPP Japan tried to take dominance by establishing the Asian Monetary Fund (AMF), which the U.S blocked. By 2011 Japan managed to establish a cooperative agreement with China and Korea called the "PRC–Japan–Republic of Korea Free trade agreement", also known as the CJK FTA, which did not include the U.S. Japan's intention with this was so that they could use the People's Republic of China card in order to gain U.S support in order to have backing within the TPP, and shift the negotiations toward Japan's agendas with support of the United States".
Then:
"Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has said that "there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view."

Some interesting thought provoking stuff in here if you can be arsed to wade your way through it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2016, 02:57:23 PM
According to a report on Sky News earlier, the Supreme Court appeal might not be the end of the road.

It could well go the European Court afterwards.

Now, wouldn't that be an irony.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2016, 04:45:34 PM
I see the Daily Fascist, nee Mail, is now personally attacking the Supreme Court judges dealing with Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Gina Miller arrived at the Supreme Court with bodyguards. She revealed sh's had several death threats, her staff have been threatened, and there's a bounty on her head.

Simply staggering, and the Mail calls it 'The Battle of Britain'.

Strange isn't it, when Brexiters wanted the rule of UK  law, that when it is applied they don't want it, and out comes the threats and extremism.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 05, 2016, 05:06:24 PM
Gina Miller arrived at the Supreme Court with bodyguards. She revealed sh's had several death threats, her staff have been threatened, and there's a bounty on her head.

Simply staggering, and the Mail calls it 'The Battle of Britain'.

Strange isn't it, when Brexiters wanted the rule of UK  law, that when it is applied they don't want it, and out comes the threats and extremism.

I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
I see the Daily Fascist, nee Mail, is now personally attacking the Supreme Court judges dealing with Brexit.

I took it to be they were informing the public about who will be judging, unfortunate they are all Remainer sympathisers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 05:40:14 PM
I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is.

It really doesn't help when one group  begin to analyse an outcome by lobbing every brexit voter as being the great unwashed ,uneducated, racists. It also doesn't help that some unfortunates have not been educated to a level where they can understand the difference between Justice and law. They don't always go together.

It also doesn't help that not one of these left wing luvvie remainers took the Blair Governement to court to challenge the legality of a war AND still remain unhinged that Parliament and the people they represent was hood winked by a war monger. It doesn't help HE is back to try and remove more of our freedoms.

 It just doesn't help that a wealthy foreigner feels she has a right on behalf other wealthy people  to try and thwart a very important phase in the Uk history by spitting a dummy out of a pram.

The mindless thugs who are threatening these Judges are doing so becuase they cannot afford to take their grievience to court...OH THE IRONY.  That makes them angry and dangerous. I will still say today what I said 10 years ago...We could still have a a civil war.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 05, 2016, 05:46:43 PM
I took it to be they were informing the public about who will be judging, unfortunate they are all Remainer sympathisers.

Attorney General Jeremy Wright QC said the High Court made the 'wrong' decision because the EU vote was written off as 'legally irrelevant' even though it was set up with the 'universal expectation that the Government would implement its result'.

Happily, he does not have any power of direction over the courts.  His role is to serve as the chief legal adviser of the Crown and its government in England and Wales.

So I think in the words of Mandy Rice Davis "he would say that, wouldn't he".

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001028/Remainer-Gina-Miller-arrives-Supreme-Court-latest-stage-Brexit-legal-battle-claiming-judges-unfairly-vilified-longer-travel-public-transport-abuse.html#ixzz4RzEUqcEx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 06:41:56 PM
I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is.

Indeed JP, I would like the answer to that one.

Or is it democracy for the Brexitt supporters and no one else ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 08:23:36 PM
Indeed JP, I would like the answer to that one.

Or is it democracy for the Brexitt supporters and no one else ?

I think it is democracy for those who have the money to pay for it, lobbyists, Oligarchs self intrest groups of many persuasions etc. Thinking it is anything else is pointless really. IMO 
This democracy  thingy, the EU one, which remainers want to keep what say you about unelected president and 'staff' having a say in what you say, what you think and still call it freedom of speech... &%+((£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
I think it is democracy for those who have the money to pay for it, lobbyists, Oligarchs self intrest groups of many persuasions etc. Thinking it is anything else is pointless really. IMO 
This democracy  thingy, the EU one, which remainers want to keep what say you about unelected president and 'staff' having a say in what you say, what you think and still call it freedom of speech... &%+((£

You mean the millionaires and billionaires behind such newspapers such as the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express etc.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 09:23:56 PM
You mean the millionaires and billionaires behind such newspapers such as the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express etc.

Yeah, those come under 'self interest groups' as do energy companies, and all other companies now owned and run by non uk citizens.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
Yeah, those come under 'self interest groups' as do energy companies, and all other companies now owned and run by non uk citizens.  8(0(*

These are the ones supporting Brexit. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
These are the ones supporting Brexit. 8)-)))

'They' do not speak for me or my reasons for wanting to leave the EU. 'they' have an agenda as do the remainer millionaires, none of it for the benefit of the  people who live and work here legally.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 09:48:52 PM
'They' do not speak for me or my reasons for wanting to leave the EU. 'they' have an agenda as do the remainer millionaires, none of it for the benefit of the  people who live and work here legally.

The ones I am referring to are stirring up hatred, and a rather unpleasant attack on the legal system, which they puport to support.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on December 05, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
The ones I am referring to are stirring up hatred, and a rather unpleasant attack on the legal system, which they puport to support.

Seems to me most people in England are sick to the back teeth of the EU wasters.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 10:03:07 PM
Seems to me most people in England are sick to the back teeth of the EU wasters.

Which EU wasters are you referring to Angelo ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on December 06, 2016, 04:11:34 PM
Which EU wasters are you referring to Angelo ?

The European Parliament of course.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 06, 2016, 06:44:47 PM
The European Parliament of course.

Including Farage, who has screwed the tax payer for £2,000,000.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2016, 09:04:32 AM

Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer


 The poll by YouGov suggested that a rerun of the referendum vote now would result in a tie.
 
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.

Just one in 10 would be willing to lose more than £100 a month. Pollster Peter Kellner, the former president of YouGov, said the results suggested that Theresa May “could have real difficulty in delivering a Brexit that satisfies those who voted for it”.

He added: “This is the first poll to look specifically at whether leave voters are willing to accept any financial loss as a result of Brexit. The answer is that few are prepared to.”

The poll, conducted by YouGov for Open Britain, the successor organisation to Britain Stronger in Europe, also shows that one in five (22%) of voters do not expect Brexit to have any impact on their finances. Just 5% believe they will be better off, while 28% expect to lose money and 45% do not know – despite Vote Leave’s now infamous pledge that quitting Brussels would boost the public purse by £350m a week.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2016, 06:52:26 PM
Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer


 The poll by YouGov suggested that a rerun of the referendum vote now would result in a tie.
 
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.

Just one in 10 would be willing to lose more than £100 a month. Pollster Peter Kellner, the former president of YouGov, said the results suggested that Theresa May “could have real difficulty in delivering a Brexit that satisfies those who voted for it”.

He added: “This is the first poll to look specifically at whether leave voters are willing to accept any financial loss as a result of Brexit. The answer is that few are prepared to.”

The poll, conducted by YouGov for Open Britain, the successor organisation to Britain Stronger in Europe, also shows that one in five (22%) of voters do not expect Brexit to have any impact on their finances. Just 5% believe they will be better off, while 28% expect to lose money and 45% do not know – despite Vote Leave’s now infamous pledge that quitting Brussels would boost the public purse by £350m a week.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov

I seriously think that people should be required to pass some kind of test to show that they are aware of the issues at stake prior to voting. If people vote with knee-jerk reactions based solely or largely on the tabloid media that sustain their confirmation bias, how on earth can they come to a reasoned decision?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2016, 07:16:36 PM
I seriously think that people should be required to pass some kind of test to show that they are aware of the issues at stake prior to voting. If people vote with knee-jerk reactions based solely or largely on the tabloid media that sustain their confirmation bias, how on earth can they come to a reasoned decision?

I totally agree Carana.

I would expect a fair proportion of those who voted to leave the EU, did so without thinking through the possible consequences of their actions.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 07:40:34 PM
So T. May is going to give us a hard Brexit.

As hard as a bowl of melted butter. 8)--))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 11, 2017, 02:06:55 PM
So T. May is going to give us a hard Brexit.

As hard as a bowl of melted butter. 8)--))

The harder the better.  The UK won't be dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in the EU.

International trade in the UK has never been better so the future is rosey. The sooner we kick the EU out of our country for good the better, its only a matter of time before it crumbles anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 02:32:51 PM
The harder the better.  The UK won't be dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in the EU.

International trade in the UK has never been better so the future is rosey. The sooner we kick the EU out of our country for good the better, its only a matter of time before it crumbles anyway.

We shall see.

Corbyn wiped the floor with her today at PM's questions, and if she can't nail him...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 05:53:22 PM
We shall see.

Corbyn wiped the floor with her today at PM's questions, and if she can't nail him...
Talking of Corbyn, does anyone know whether or not he's for the free movement of people or not, or just a little bit, but only on a Thursday?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
Talking of Corbyn, does anyone know whether or not he's for the free movement of people or not, or just a little bit, but only on a Thursday?

I reckon, like May, he hasn't got a clue.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 16, 2017, 05:22:18 PM

We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 05:56:12 PM
We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

Don't forget the red , white and blue brexit.

T. May is full of hot air , and in a job she is not cut out to do, and that is not because of her gender.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2017, 07:22:41 PM
We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

I suppose if a soft Brexit were coupled with a blue Brexit it might become a hard Brexit and then graduate to.............................. &%+((£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
I suppose if a soft Brexit were coupled with a blue Brexit it might become a hard Brexit and then graduate to.............................. &%+((£

Maybe, one of Trump's showers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 08:13:16 PM
The only Brexit worth doing is a hard Brexit which will entail a total separation from the EU.  The US President-elect has just announced a fast-track trade deal with the UK which was inevitable. He has also predicted the break up of the EU following the UK's exit, again, inevitable.  It was a long time coming but we got there in the end.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 08:17:04 PM
The only Brexit worth doing is a hard which will entail a total separation from the EU.  The US President-elect has just announced a fast track trade deal with the UK which was inevitable. He has also predicted the break up of the EU following the UK's exit, again, inevitable.

Saying you can negotiate a fast trade deal is one thing, delivering it is another.

Brexit has yet to be start.

The brexit negotiations have to, be ratified i believe, by the member states, by which time, some of the dead wood will have disappeared.

Negotiations as to brexit, will also be invariably affected by forthcoming elections in other EU countries, and any trade deals can't start until brexit is ratified.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 08:49:44 PM
Saying you can negotiate a fast trade deal is one thing, delivering it is another.

Brexit has yet to be start.

The brexit negotiations have to, be ratified i believe, by the member states, by which time, some of the dead wood will have disappeared.

Negotiations as to brexit, will also be invariably affected by forthcoming elections in other EU countries, and any trade deals can't start until brexit is ratified.

Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:14:54 PM
Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal.

Deals take a while, no matter the rhetoric. 4-6 years with America.

As I said , deals cannot be initiated until brexit is finalised.


I can buy goods from those countries already , in the UK John.

So what exactly will change ?


I've just watched Panorama. Quote interesting. Worth a watch.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 09:30:57 PM
Deals take a while, no matter the rhetoric. 4-6 years with America.

As I said , deals cannot be initiated until brexit is finalised.


I can buy goods from those countries already , in the UK John.

So what exactly will change ?


I've just watched Panorama. Quote interesting. Worth a watch.

You do realise everything purchased from non EU countries is subject to an EU customs tariff?

Within the EU most goods are in free circulation and can be imported with minimal customs control, have no import duty or VAT to pay.

Imports from outside the EU are treated differently.

You must make an import declaration to customs generally, have to pay import duty and import VAT (plus VAT on import duty).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:33:10 PM
You do realise everything purchased from non EU countries is subject to an EU customs tariff?

Of course.

That will happen in reverse if we leave the single market.

I am well versed with Economics John.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 09:38:22 PM
Of course.

That will happen in reverse if we leave the single market.

I am well versed with Economics John.

You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:49:18 PM
You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.

We have been through all this before.

You also know full well how many of our exports go to the EU.

Brits also love the expensive German cars.

There's an old joke there, but it might be removed on here.

Have you heard the one, about what is the difference between  a hedgehog and a BMW ?  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 10:00:41 PM
We have been through all this before.

You also know full well how many of our exports go to the EU.

Brits also love the expensive German cars.

There's an old joke there, but it might be removed on here.

Have you heard the one, about what is the difference between  a hedgehog and a BMW ?  8**8:/:

As you well know the tide is from Europe so imposing any tariff would hurt the EU. There is very little which can't be sourced elsewhere in the world.  Once mans loss is another mans gain!
Anyway, if I need anything from the EU I just drive over the border.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2017, 10:09:08 PM
Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal.

Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 01:34:23 AM
Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((

There certainly is and I am the first to agree but staying in the EU was never an option.  The rate at which the UK is taking in the world's waifs and strays could never be sustainable, we have to control who is allowed to come and settle here and the only way we are ever going to do that is by taking back control.  One only needs to look at London and the multicultural mess that it has become, not in my backyard...sorry.

And for those who are in the UK illegally they must be repatriated where possible.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
There certainly is and I am the first to agree but staying in the EU was never an option.  The rate at which the UK is taking in the world's waifs and strays could never be sustainable, we have to control who is allowed to come and settle here and the only way we are ever going to do that is by taking back control.  One only needs to look at London and the multicultural mess that it has become, not in my backyard...sorry.

And for those who are in the UK illegally they must be repatriated where possible.

What are the numbers of these 'waifs' as you call them ?

...............and how do the numbers coming here compare to other countries ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((

It's not just Brexit in isolation, we are now in the Brump era.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:52:35 AM
What are the numbers of these 'waifs' as you call them ?

...............and how do the numbers coming here compare to other countries ?

And what is meant by "waifs and strays". And where do they come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.

Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?

The UK already pays the EU money which is returned to British farmers as an annual single farm payment so the economics is very simple, we just cut out the middlemen.   I would add though that the system should be reviewed since the fatcat farmers are getting far too much of the cream while thousands of small farmers with heritages going back several generations are going to the wall.

As for exporting, the question doesn't arise as the UK is a net importer.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:10:46 AM
I notice that we're not supposed to refer to a "hard" Brexit any more. The new term appears to be "clean".

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:14:14 AM
I notice that we're not supposed to refer to a "hard" Brexit any more. The new term appears to be "clean".

 @)(++(*

Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
And what is meant by "waifs and strays". And where do they come from?

I was wondering that Carana.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
The UK already pays the EU money which is returned to British farmers as an annual single farm payment so the economics is very simple, we just cut out the middlemen.   As for exporting, the question doesn't arise as the UK is a net importer.

Do you disagree with this article by Farmers' Insight, John?

EU trade implications

One of the biggest unknowns for UK farming is what sort of trading arrangements will be put in place after we leave the Single Market, with its 500 million consumers and free movement of goods and people.

    The UK currently has free access, without tariffs or border controls, to an EU market of 500 million people
    The UK exports nearly £11 billion of food, drink and animal feed products to the EU, 60 per cent of total exports
    About £26.5bn comes the other way
    38 per cent of UK lamb goes to the EU, with France accounting for nearly 60 per cent of exports
    93 per cent of beef exports and 92 per cent of sheepmeat exports go to the EU


Everything depends on the nature of any agreement the UK negotiates with the EU. This will determine what sort of tariffs, if any, are put in place on trade both ways between the UK and the EU and what other conditions are attached, such as the need for regulatory compliance.

https://www.fginsight.com/vip/vip/brexit-vote---what-are-the-implications-for-uk-farming-13146

More pondering here:
https://www.fginsight.com/news/news/brexit-briefing-what-are-the-trade-implications-for-farmers-of-leaving-the-eu-10459
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:34:22 AM
Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.

Where do these "illegals" come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:39:08 AM
Do you disagree with this article by Farmers' Insight, John?
https://www.fginsight.com/vip/vip/brexit-vote---what-are-the-implications-for-uk-farming-13146

The article asks many questions but provides little answers.  There is no doubt the UK farming industry will have to rise to the challenge, paying 'lazy' farmers £100 an acre every year simply to do nothing with their land was a crazy EU incentive.  British farmers have done their bit in the past and will do so again.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:39:41 AM
Where do these "illegals" come from?

All over the world, the vast majority being economic migrants and overstayers.  Time we had a Borders Agency fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:49:31 AM
All over the world, the vast majority being economic migrants and overstayers.  Time we had a Borders Agency fit for purpose.

What constitutes "illegal" and how many of those are EU citizens?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 01:40:49 PM
Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.
Could we have a cite for that please. Given that the population of the South East of England is circa 10 million, then millions of illegals would seem to indicate that at a minimum one on in every 5 people in the South East of England is here illegally.  Seriously?!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
The article asks many questions but provides little answers.  There is no doubt the UK farming industry will have to rise to the challenge, paying 'lazy' farmers £100 an acre every year simply to do nothing with their land was a crazy EU incentive.  British farmers have done their bit in the past and will do so again.

Who has the answers, then?

In the event of tariffs (or other penalties), the price of EU imports of UK farm-related produce / products *may* be offset by the lower pound.

However, as you pointed out, John, the UK is a net importer in the food sector.

So... doesn't that somewhat turn the situation on its head?

How will the UK food companies (and ultimately consumers) deal with higher import costs due to the pound and the potential extra cost of levies?

And will the situation be less or more expensive for UK food-based manufacturers who need to import raw ingredients or whatever else in order to export the final product?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 04:32:45 PM
Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?

Where they have always come from.
Historically the worst of it is rooted in nearly starving to death in the Second World War. There is a case to argue it started in the Naopleonic Wars but let's leave that for now. Read "Theft of the Countryside" for detail on subsidies pre "Common Market".

Anyway out on the edge of The Fen potato growers will no longer be able to use cheap European labour to dig potatoes*. English labour will not do it for reasons they will not do it now. The Murphy's, Bonzers, Spuds, tubers call 'em what you will, then remain underground to rot. The growers say "'ere Mr DEFRA ,or whatever his name is now, due to circumstances beyond our control we have lost our profits giss a subsidy to cover it". Certainly says Mr DEFRA it's not my money anyway. In days gone by Gentleman Jim owned the farm but nowadays it is large corporations and pension funds.............. Good innit  ?{)(**. First law of economics "To him that hath shall be given"
Speaking of digging potatoes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7eHYSFu1kE
as banned by The BBC!.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:01:59 PM
Could we have a cite for that please. Given that the population of the South East of England is circa 10 million, then millions of illegals would seem to indicate that at a minimum one on in every 5 people in the South East of England is here illegally.  Seriously?!

Its not too hard to Google it Alfie. Try London millions illegals.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:05:29 PM
What constitutes "illegal" and how many of those are EU citizens?

EU citizens are entitled to live and work in the UK.   An 'illegal' is simply someone who has entered the country illegally, has outstayed their welcome or been denied citizenship.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:09:06 PM
Who has the answers, then?

In the event of tariffs (or other penalties), the price of EU imports of UK farm-related produce / products *may* be offset by the lower pound.

However, as you pointed out, John, the UK is a net importer in the food sector.

So... doesn't that somewhat turn the situation on its head?

How will the UK food companies (and ultimately consumers) deal with higher import costs due to the pound and the potential extra cost of levies?

And will the situation be less or more expensive for UK food-based manufacturers who need to import raw ingredients or whatever else in order to export the final product?

I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 07:11:29 PM
I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,

We live on one planet, with ever diminishing resources.

To think you can control your own destiny is unrealistic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:11:44 PM
Where they have always come from.
Historically the worst of it is rooted in nearly starving to death in the Second World War. There is a case to argue it started in the Naopleonic Wars but let's leave that for now. Read "Theft of the Countryside" for detail on subsidies pre "Common Market".

Anyway out on the edge of The Fen potato growers will no longer be able to use cheap European labour to dig potatoes*. English labour will not do it for reasons they will not do it now. The Murphy's, Bonzers, Spuds, tubers call 'em what you will, then remain underground to rot. The growers say "'ere Mr DEFRA ,or whatever his name is now, due to circumstances beyond our control we have lost our profits giss a subsidy to cover it". Certainly says Mr DEFRA it's not my money anyway. In days gone by Gentleman Jim owned the farm but nowadays it is large corporations and pension funds.............. Good innit  ?{)(**. First law of economics "To him that hath shall be given"
Speaking of digging potatoes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7eHYSFu1kE
as banned by The BBC!.

We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor.  I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:17:01 PM
We live on one planet, with ever diminishing resources.

To think you can control your own destiny is unrealistic.

Well the majority have certainly started to determine their destiny when they voted to kick out the EU.   @)(++(*  8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 07:27:28 PM

Well the majority have certainly started to determine their destiny when they voted to kick out the EU.   @)(++(*  8((()*/

No John.

37% of the electorate.

In fact , neither side had a majority in the referendum.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 07:37:07 PM
We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor. I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.

With a bloody great turning circle that needs hedgerows and copses to be cut down, for which cutting down a subsidy will be paid no doubt !!!!! ( I suppose baling sledges are a thing of the past too ?).
I guess my point is that the farming lobby wields alot of power at Westminster.

"You'll never see a farmer on a bike"...............old East Anglian proverb  8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor.  I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.
No "ifs" about it - there IS a need for EU labour to harvest crops, unless you think that somehow fit young British born subjects can be incentivized to move to Lincolnshire in their tens of thousands to pull carrots etc for a few months every year?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 08:32:09 PM
No "ifs" about it - there IS a need for EU labour to harvest crops, unless you think that somehow fit young British born subjects can be incentivized to move to Lincolnshire in their tens of thousands to pull carrots etc for a few months every year?

..and it isn't just people to work on the farms.

Employers want skilled people, and there is a lack of them in the UK.

May seems to live in a world of make believe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 09:01:03 PM
Having looked through May's speech.

Brexit but not really.

She won't satisfy either side.

Just a pig's ear of a speech.

Thanks Cameron.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 25, 2017, 11:37:31 AM
I see there has been an arrest of 50 year old man who made 'threats' to Gina Miller.

Reported on LBC Radio.

He wasn't the only one.


I dare say this moron also supports Trump.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 12, 2017, 02:15:47 PM
With a bloody great turning circle that needs hedgerows and copses to be cut down, for which cutting down a subsidy will be paid no doubt !!!!! ( I suppose baling sledges are a thing of the past too ?).
I guess my point is that the farming lobby wields alot of power at Westminster.

"You'll never see a farmer on a bike"...............old East Anglian proverb  8(0(*

Indeed ALice. Farmers are large corporate land owning gentry now who grab most in subsidies- very few small holdings.  Also many celebs have tax havens to plant and grow trees in Scotland. WTF we don't need anymore laylandi. Apparently this is to stop Global warming ..sniggers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 07, 2017, 11:29:08 AM
Worth a read...


Britons living in the EU face Brexit backlash, leaked paper warns
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-treatment-of-eu-nationals-could-lead-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 14, 2017, 09:35:15 PM
I see the Tory rebels have now bern receiving veiled death threats .

Reported in the Guardian.

Revealing the mind sets of certain parties, though I am not surprised.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2018, 08:38:01 AM
Democracy in this country is normally limited to voting every few years for a candidate to represent us in Parliament. Once elected we have no control over what the candidate does during his or her time there. Brexit is different. Thanks to David Cameron we were asked for our opinion and we gave it.

The government appear to be very reluctant to listen, however. It's strange how pro-democracy politicians are until democracy delivers something they don't agree with (we saw a similar rejection of the democratic process when Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party).

Despite May's oft repeated 'Brexit means Brexit' it seems that when it comes to the crunch it doesn't. Will she and her party survive this apparent rejection of the declared will of the people?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on July 09, 2018, 08:59:51 PM
Democracy in this country is normally limited to voting every few years for a candidate to represent us in Parliament. Once elected we have no control over what the candidate does during his or her time there. Brexit is different. Thanks to David Cameron we were asked for our opinion and we gave it.

The government appear to be very reluctant to listen, however. It's strange how pro-democracy politicians are until democracy delivers something they don't agree with (we saw a similar rejection of the democratic process when Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party).

Despite May's oft repeated 'Brexit means Brexit' it seems that when it comes to the crunch it doesn't. Will she and her party survive this apparent rejection of the declared will of the people?
What does Brexit mean, actually?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on July 09, 2018, 09:13:24 PM
Britain Exit?   I have to say the politicians of all colours are making a complete hash of it. It is hard to know what any of them stand for anymore - except power for themselves.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2018, 08:47:04 PM
Still running around like headless chickens as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 19, 2018, 08:06:19 AM
An analogy of Brexit involving eggs, cake and omelette. lol

https://garybainbridge.com/2018/10/10/column-october-11-2018/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 19, 2018, 03:01:29 PM
Still running around like headless chickens as far as I can see.

Afraid to tell the truth more like.

Wrt to the leave campaigners I would paraphrase Stokely Carmichael .... "The punks were lying, period".
Unfortunately my generation, which should not have been allowed to vote on the topic anyway, screwed it up by swallowing a load of jingoistic cobblers hook line sinker and half way down the bleedin' rod.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 27, 2018, 05:25:12 AM
Afraid to tell the truth more like.

Wrt to the leave campaigners I would paraphrase Stokely Carmichael .... "The punks were lying, period".
Unfortunately my generation, which should not have been allowed to vote on the topic anyway, screwed it up by swallowing a load of jingoistic cobblers hook line sinker and half way down the bleedin' rod.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1053662098574716929
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 10, 2018, 07:02:11 PM
And now BoJo's brother JoJo has resigned.

https://news.sky.com/story/jo-johnsons-has-set-out-his-reasons-for-resigning-in-his-own-words-11549426
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 10, 2018, 07:08:53 PM
"In these circumstances, we must ask what we are achieving. William Hague once described the goal of Conservative policy as being "in Europe, but not run by Europe". The government's proposals will see us out of Europe, yet run by Europe, bound by rules which we will have lost a hand in shaping." - Jo Johnson.

I've never understood how leaving the EU was supposed to allow the UK to "get back control". Total mystery to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 18, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Mystery to me too.  I do suspect that others are cottoning on though.  In the unlikely event of someone having the balls to have a ‘let’s chevk the current mood of the meeting’ poll I think there may be a few disappointed Brexit enthusiasts. 

Some will be incandescent with rage (5%) some will think ‘quoi?’ And get on with life (30%) and the rest will breathe a huge collective sigh of relief. 

Final though have you noticed the more mouthy say ‘if we don’t get our Brexit, there will be riots’.  But never ‘I will riot’. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 09:43:32 AM
Mystery to me too.  I do suspect that others are cottoning on though.  In the unlikely event of someone having the balls to have a ‘let’s chevk the current mood of the meeting’ poll I think there may be a few disappointed Brexit enthusiasts. 

Some will be incandescent with rage (5%) some will think ‘quoi?’ And get on with life (30%) and the rest will breathe a huge collective sigh of relief. 

Final though have you noticed the more mouthy say ‘if we don’t get our Brexit, there will be riots’.  But never ‘I will riot’.

What irritates me is when people (including politicians and even journalists who should know better) insist that the majority of UK citizens voted to leave.

No, they didn't.

What IS true is that slightly more voted to leave than those who voted to remain: 51.9% (17,410,742 ) leave v 48.9% (16,141,241) remain.

But that's not the same thing.

The turnout was 72.2% out of an electorate of 46,501,241. To simply that for my tiny calculator: 17.4 / 46.5 = 37.4%.

I.e. only 37.4% of registered voters voted for Leave. Hardly a majority of UK citizens (and if the expats who weren't even allowed to vote could have done, I find it likely that the true percentage would have been even lower).

https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 03:10:09 PM
Quiz time.

Who said (and try not to cheat):

1. “This is a very sad place to be,” X told Sky News. “But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”

I've got lots of these...


























Answer:

"Arch-Brexiteer" Nadine Dorries
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1063790996859830272



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 03:32:43 PM
Quiz question no 2

Which brain-child said:

“I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."
















Answer: Dominic Raab, the latest former Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5m7_JrLNDY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 04:01:01 PM
No. 3

Which MP said this:

'I do have the right to go over to Ireland and I believe that I can ask for a passport. Can't I?'















Answer: Andrew Bridgen, member of the ERG "think tank".

https://www.irishpost.com/news/everyone-in-england-is-entitled-to-an-irish-passport-british-mp-displays-staggering-ignorance-over-ireland-in-radio-interview-160840


Reality is just a little more restricted than that:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 05:25:26 PM
No 4 (?)

Who said:

"Leaving the European Union is the most fantastic opportunity for the United Kingdom. It means we can have the opportunity of setting lower tariffs, cheaper food, clothing and footwear, helping the least well-off in our society... "















Jacob Rees-Mogg (another ERG member).

Clip on here: https://news.sky.com/story/french-minister-says-brexit-comes-at-exorbitant-price-as-he-calls-uk-mps-liars-11555807


Question: How can an isolated country get better trade deals than the combined bargaining power of the largest trading bloc?

Lower tariffs... with whom, exactly?

Trade between EU members? Nope.

Better deals that the EU trade agreements already concluded or in the process of ratification with non-EU countries?

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149622.pdf


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 07:09:37 PM
Someone on Twitter seems to be compiling the "famous last quotes" much faster.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1065648448362434560.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 22, 2018, 10:29:56 PM
"In these circumstances, we must ask what we are achieving. William Hague once described the goal of Conservative policy as being "in Europe, but not run by Europe". The government's proposals will see us out of Europe, yet run by Europe, bound by rules which we will have lost a hand in shaping." - Jo Johnson.

I've never understood how leaving the EU was supposed to allow the UK to "get back control". Total mystery to me.

On March 28th 2019 if you wish to flog a hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive. On April 1st 2019  if you wish to flog the same hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive,so who is controlling what?........ *%87
On March 28th 2019 the UK observes EU laws. On April 1st 2019 the UK will observe EU laws because we don't have any of our own [see Repeal Act 2017] so who is controlling what?

Chris Grayling reckons we can be self sufficient in food by digging up golf courses and growing veg on them.
Some one should tell him GB has not been self sufficient in food since pre Napoleonic wars.

Our politicians clearly do not know whether they are punched, bored, drilled or countersunk in a certain area.

ETA."for Electrogmatic read Electromagnetic"
But I do like the idea of Trogmatic !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 23, 2018, 12:53:45 PM
On March 28th 2019 if you wish to flog a hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive. On April 1st 2019  if you wish to flog the same hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive,so who is controlling what?........ *%87
On March 28th 2019 the UK observes EU laws. On April 1st 2019 the UK will observe EU laws because we don't have any of our own [see Repeal Act 2017] so who is controlling what?

Chris Grayling reckons we can be self sufficient in food by digging up golf courses and growing veg on them.
Some one should tell him GB has not been self sufficient in food since pre Napoleonic wars.

Our politicians clearly do not know whether they are punched, bored, drilled or countersunk in a certain area.

Ah, but Owen Paterson has it all sussed:

"Really positive discussions on the future of UK/Oklahoma trade relationship. Sadly impossible to implement with the Draft Withdrawal Agreement as UK will not control its own tariffs or regulatory environment"

https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063860778242109441

Interesting picture of inspecting "local wheat varieties" during the trip:

https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063871163120656384


I did have an extract of a document about US wishes for - what I understood to mean - looser regulations and labelling. I'll add link if I come across it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 24, 2018, 11:58:47 AM
Can anyone explain to me how Paterson could possibly envisage an international trade agreement between the UK and.... Oklahoma?

Has it suddenly become an independent nation with WTO status in total secrecy? lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 26, 2018, 06:36:49 PM
No, I thought not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 26, 2018, 06:42:06 PM
I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,

What does that actually mean, John?

An FTA with a country not within the EU, nor with any of the 60+ countries with which treaties/agrrements have already been established, or are in the process of of achieving agreement, with lower standards for farming animal welfare?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 02, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
For anyone confused about which countries belong to the EU, the EEA, EFTA or simply a customs union, here's a handy diagram.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-12/u-s-china-10-other-countries-seek-brexit-assurances-at-wto
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 04, 2018, 09:45:46 AM
An extract of Daniel Hannan's speech to the Atlas Network...

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1068855490577338368

Something about the triumph of the capitalist spirit was making chicken meat accessible for the masses.

US chlorinated chicken, perchance?

A bit of background:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/04/post-brexit-free-trade-deal-us-rightwing-thinktanks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 14, 2018, 03:35:49 PM
Daniel Hannan's "vision" of post-Brexit.
https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Dystopia doesn't even describe it, IMO.

Incidentally, he looks amazingly like this Daniel Hannan:

Daniel Hannan's MEP group told to repay €535,000 in EU funds
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/daniel-hannan-mep-group-told-to-repay-half-a-million-in-eu-funds
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 15, 2018, 12:09:38 AM
Who was Rees-Mogg fronting for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:18:22 AM
Who was Rees-Mogg fronting for?

Interesting question. Not sure he's actually fronting for anyone - he might just be genuinely bonkers.

"Jacob Rees-Mogg has offered an optimistic prediction of how long we might have to wait see see the benefits of Brexit: 50 years."

https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a22513246/jacob-rees-mogg-claims-we-might-not-see-benefits-of-brexit-for-50-years/

https://www.desmogblog.com/2018/07/23/mapped-whistleblower-accuses-nine-organisations-colluding-over-hard-brexit

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/revealed-these-70-tory-mps-support-the-hard-brexit-group?utm_term=.rlYbW76Aw#.sqXaNqMbV


ETA
Hmm, I'd forgotten about his links to IEA.
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/12/01/institute-of-economic-affairs-charity-commission-brexit/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/revealed-how-uk-s-powerful-right-wing-think-tanks-and-conse#

http://www.brexitshambles.com/brexit-scam-we-need-to-talk-about-tufton-street/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-think-tanks-carrying-out-independent-research-to-support-brexit-have-close-links-to-a6866011.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:51:20 AM
Worth a read, IMO.

Sir Ivan Rogers on Brexit

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 15, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
Worth a read, IMO.

Sir Ivan Rogers on Brexit

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:25:03 PM
A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.

I agree.

If we put aside the bluff, there are really only 3 options (on the table or not).

1. No deal (I suppose I could dig out the "technical notices" if anyone is really interested in Project Reality in that event). Spoiler: they amount to what used to be branded as "Project Fear".

2. May's deal - a kind of half-way house that may or may not involve a customs union, and clamps down on freedom of movement between EU nations... and that goes both ways.

A most bizarre stipulation is the requirement for 5 continuous years of "CSI" coverage - which no one seems to have heard of. Normally, you paid into your state of residence or into your state of origin and medical bills are reimbursed to the host country.

Applying for settled status if you've been an Armed Forces spouse moving around seems even more complicated.


None of the Canada, Norway, Switzerland variations come without a massive cost.

All of the above have a negative economic impact. It's just that May's deal is less detrimental than the other variations.

3. Status quo (Remain) Not on the cards yet. But I'd be grateful if someone could explain how any of these Brexit "solutions" ranging from bad to catastrophic would provide the UK with a) a rosier future in general and b) an answer to the underlying gripes in the first place?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:35:48 PM
A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.

Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 16, 2018, 03:18:20 PM
Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

I think a simple question was asked and a simple answer was given. If the politicians knew it wasn't a simple question they shouldn't have asked it, but they did and their job is simple; leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
I think a simple question was asked and a simple answer was given. If the politicians knew it wasn't a simple question they shouldn't have asked it, but they did and their job is simple; leave.

https://youtu.be/svwslRDTyzU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 16, 2018, 06:40:33 PM
Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

Brexit meant whatever the particular beholder chose it to mean as no politician ever defined it properly. So each voter voted for his interpretation of Brexit from what he was being told; jingoism of the worst kind, promulgated by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and snake in the grass Michael Gove, which bore no relationship to reality.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2018, 08:49:25 PM
Brexit meant whatever the particular beholder chose it to mean as no politician ever defined it properly. So each voter voted for his interpretation of Brexit from what he was being told; jingoism of the worst kind, promulgated by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and snake in the grass Michael Gove, which bore no relationship to reality.

Agree. I'd add David Davis, Raab, Paterson and a few others who clearly don't have the foggiest idea of how anything actually works. Worse: few interviewers challenge them. Unless people have taken time to do some independent homework - which relatively few people do - there's no way for people to know what's true or not.

And Corbyn seems to be up in cloud cuckoo-land as well.

Have you been following the Cambridge Analytica shenanigans? Scary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2018, 08:59:05 AM
The people didn't vote for or against Brexit in my opinion. They voted to stay in the EU or to leave the EU. The leavers won. Now the politicians and various others are panicking because they either don't want to leave or don't know what to do next if we do leave. It's their mess and they need to stop arguing and concentrate on doing their jobs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2018, 11:16:53 AM
If the UK leaves the EU on 29th March 2019 guidelines are emerging.

Holidays; package holidays are being recommended. Customers will be recompensed if the flight doesn't take place. If someone has booked their hotel/car hire separately they will not be recompensed by the airline if the flight isn't delivered.

Insurance; apparently some people rely on their right to be treated in the EU if they have existing medical conditions or fall ill. They can't rely on this continuing, so will need to be insured.

Passports; The EU passport will no longer be accepted, so a British passport with any visas necessary should be obtained. The fast track entry for EU citizens will not be available. Those with an Irish passport will be OK. The best position is for those with both British and Irish passports. They can leave the UK via fast track using their British passports, and enter an EU country via the fast track channel using their Irish passports.

Driving; an international driving licence will be needed. There are two kinds and people will need one or both depending on which countries they plan to visit.

Mobile phones; cheap roaming may or may not continue; check with your provider.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 11:25:22 AM
I've heard of numerous reasons for leaving, but perhaps this one takes the, erm, socket.

The James O’Brien Caller Who Voted Brexit Because Of Three-Pin Plugs

17 December 2018, 11:02
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 12:28:45 PM
I'm aware that James O'Brien is somewhat abrasive, which I find a shame. However, on substance, I find him accurate so far.


'Which EU Law Are You Most Looking Forward To Losing?'
11 October 2016, 14:03 | Updated: 12 October 2016, 07:28
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/

Brexiteer Tells James O'Brien He'd Be Happy If His House Price Drops By 30%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2-q6TZVbjQ&t=41s

James O’Brien Scolds Caller Who Says Microchipping People Could Solve Irish Border
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsyKP6mW2iA


Meanwhile...

James O'Brien's Caller Reminds Brexiteers Why Good Friday Agreement Is So Vital - Brexit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE95nEkM_nA

Trans-European road haulier's view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y8qUlQHgC4
(He has since announced he's moving to Dublin to save his business).


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 01:24:21 PM
Another ERG UK politician (Andrew Bridgen this time) who seems to think any UK citizen can waltz into Ireland and automatically claim the right to a passport and thus remain a citizen of an EU country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9WrGKoFJU

No, you can't, dear, as a 5-minute google would have shown the restrictions on that "brainwave".

https://www.dfa.ie/irelanduk-citizenshipandpassports/

It's not just that they spout total gibberish most of the time, it's also that TV hosts rarely seem to challenge them with that increasingly rare commodity formerly known as fact.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 04:43:50 PM
I've just discovered on Sky what they supposedly mean by  a "managed no deal".

"Managed no deal
Involves reverting to WTO rules with a series of mini-deals struck to mitigate the biggest risks."


Seriously?

What planet are they on?  *%87
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on December 18, 2018, 01:01:09 AM
Does anyone know whether Nigel Farage ever had a proper & workable Brexit plan & if so, why he has failed to produce it in the months since we voted?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 18, 2018, 01:02:05 AM
I don't much care why people voted to leave the EU. I'm sure people vote in General Elections for all kinds of strange reasons too.

When politicians show the depth of their ignorance that's more worrying because they have more power over us. There are 650 of them and their decisions affect the lives of 66 million others. The English in particular are at their mercy because they have no Assembly like the Scots and Welsh.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 18, 2018, 10:59:26 AM
Does anyone know whether Nigel Farage ever had a proper & workable Brexit plan & if so, why he has failed to produce it in the months since we voted?

Not as far as I know, Misty. I've never heard him come up with anything beyond soundbites of "taking back" sovereignty / control. Empty rhetoric.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 18, 2018, 02:45:09 PM
So the government is concentrating on planning for a no deal exit now. It includes making 3,500 military personnel available 'to be deployed if needed by any government departments'. Are they expecting attacks on Government departments? By whom? Enraged remainers? Perhaps they think out borders will be overrun by people desperate to get in or out on 28th March? Do they expect a collapse in food deliveries to shops, causing rioting?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 18, 2018, 04:49:38 PM
Hard to tell.


Matt Hancock has said he's become the largest buyer of fridges in the world (to stockpile medicine).
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/matt-hancock-uk-buy-fridges-stockpile-drugs-brexit-no-deal/


They seem to be stockpiling for 6 weeks... but then what?

There are still the Johnny-come-latelies who seem to think there's time to negotiate some last-minute half-baked new plan with the EU.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 18, 2018, 05:29:10 PM
So the government is concentrating on planning for a no deal exit now. It includes making 3,500 military personnel available 'to be deployed if needed by any government departments'. Are they expecting attacks on Government departments? By whom? Enraged remainers? Perhaps they think out borders will be overrun by people desperate to get in or out on 28th March? Do they expect a collapse in food deliveries to shops, causing rioting?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850
It’s called planning ahead for any eventuality, quite sensible I would have thought seeing as how no obe really has a clue what will happen come 1st April.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 08:05:44 AM
We have seen the panic by UK businesses at the prospect of a no deal exit but it's a two way street. European businesses will also suffer.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/09/a-hard-brexit-could-halve-eu-exports-to-britain-german-study-claims.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 19, 2018, 09:48:35 AM
Yes, the EU will suffer as well, but not as much as the UK.

Incidentally, Pascal Lamy, the former WTO chief, famously said that leaving the EU was going to be like taking an egg out of an omelette. He also said, more recently, that if the UK left on WTO terms, it would be like going from 1st division to 4th.

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1071423059247161344
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 19, 2018, 09:53:33 AM
I found this quite amusing, but sadly accurate...

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1074965545966071808
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 11:38:26 AM
Yes, the EU will suffer as well, but not as much as the UK.

Incidentally, Pascal Lamy, the former WTO chief, famously said that leaving the EU was going to be like taking an egg out of an omelette. He also said, more recently, that if the UK left on WTO terms, it would be like going from 1st division to 4th.

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1071423059247161344

We have been paying around £9 billion net per year membership fees to the EU.
Even if we help businesses out with around 5 billion Euros in tariffs we would still be approx. £4.5 billion better off each year. As that is roughly what we get from the EU in grants, we could use that to replace them,

EU countries would have to increase their membership fees to cover the loss of our contribution and they would have to pay tariffs too if they wanted to continue to sell to the UK. Germany, as the largest contributor too the EU budget and a large exporter to the UK would be particularly affected.

It's by no means certain that the UK would suffer more in my opinion.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
We have been paying around £9 billion net per year membership fees to the EU.
Even if we help businesses out with around 5 billion Euros in tariffs we would still be approx. £4.5 billion better off each year. As that is roughly what we get from the EU in grants, we could use that to replace them,

EU countries would have to increase their membership fees to cover the loss of our contribution and they would have to pay tariffs too if they wanted to continue to sell to the UK. Germany, as the largest contributor too the EU budget and a large exporter to the UK would be particularly affected.

It's by no means certain that the UK would suffer more in my opinion.
Is this one of those occasions when you don’t defer to the experts?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 07:23:40 PM
Is this one of those occasions when you don’t defer to the experts?

If you want to debate my opinion feel free. If you just want to score cheap points forget it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2018, 07:25:54 PM
If you want to debate my opinion feel free. If you just want to score cheap points forget it.
Just highlighting your inconsistent approach to expert opinion.   Tell us why you know better than those experts who predict serious economic damage following a no deal Brexit then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
Just highlighting your inconsistent approach to expert opinion.   Tell us why you know better than those experts who predict serious economic damage following a no deal Brexit then.

What 'serious economic damage'? Please be more specific and we'll debate the details if you wish.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 19, 2018, 08:14:18 PM
What 'serious economic damage'? Please be more specific and we'll debate the details if you wish.
I’m sure you’re already  only too aware of this...
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-no-deal-brexit-would-hit-uk-economy/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 10:35:30 PM
I’m sure you’re already  only too aware of this...
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-no-deal-brexit-would-hit-uk-economy/

Everything in your article is opinion by "City Experts" so not exactly neutral observers. The text is littered with suggest" "expect" "could be" "likely" and "probably". Where are the facts? In my opinion they just don't know, so they're guessing.

My guess is they might be surprised when the world keeps turning, imports continue to arrive, exports continue to leave and people who already live here fill the vacancies that companies seem to think only EU immigrants will fill. It might cost them a little more in wages, but I'm sure they'd rather pay a decent wage than exploit people.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 12:02:44 AM
Everything in your article is opinion by "City Experts" so not exactly neutral observers. The text is littered with suggest" "expect" "could be" "likely" and "probably". Where are the facts? In my opinion they just don't know, so they're guessing.

My guess is they might be surprised when the world keeps turning, imports continue to arrive, exports continue to leave and people who already live here fill the vacancies that companies seem to think only EU immigrants will fill. It might cost them a little more in wages, but I'm sure they'd rather pay a decent wage than exploit people.
Damn those city experts - we’ve had quie enough of experts and their stupid opinions oh, and f..k business while we’re at it.  Yes, it’s all going to be happy days when we leave with no deal, course it will!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 06:52:46 AM
Damn those city experts - we’ve had quie enough of experts and their stupid opinions oh, and f..k business while we’re at it.  Yes, it’s all going to be happy days when we leave with no deal, course it will!

Instead of getting your underwear in a twist, find some facts. Rumours abound, but no-one is forecasting what will happen, just what they fear mught happen. If the word 'might' is in there then 'might not' is also possible.

A fall in the value of the pound is mentioned. Is that an unmitigated disaster? No it isn't, actually, there are benefits in some areas;

(https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/devaluation-winners-losers.jpg)

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1882/economics/winners-and-losers-from-weak-pound/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 07:16:16 AM
Instead of getting your underwear in a twist, find some facts. Rumours abound, but no-one is forecasting what will happen, just what they fear mught happen. If the word 'might' is in there then 'might not' is also possible.

A fall in the value of the pound is mentioned. Is that an unmitigated disaster? No it isn't, actually, there are benefits in some areas;

(https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/devaluation-winners-losers.jpg)

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1882/economics/winners-and-losers-from-weak-pound/
Sorry, you mentioned facts but I failed to see any in your post, only more guesses.  That’s the problem with Brexit.  No one can say for certain what leaving with no deal will actually mean for tbe country but many experts agree that it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy, and that the poorest in society will be the hardest hit.  Of course there is a chance the opposite may be true but crashing out with no deal is reckless and irresponsible in the extreme IMO.  My business will almost certainly be affected negatively and if I still have it in its current in a year’s time after a no deal Brexit I will be amazed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 07:58:36 AM
Sorry, you mentioned facts but I failed to see any in your post, only more guesses.  That’s the problem with Brexit.  No one can say for certain what leaving with no deal will actually mean for tbe country but many experts agree that it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy, and that the poorest in society will be the hardest hit.  Of course there is a chance the opposite may be true but crashing out with no deal is reckless and irresponsible in the extreme IMO.  My business will almost certainly be affected negatively and if I still have it in its current in a year’s time after a no deal Brexit I will be amazed.

How will your business be negatively affected?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 08:05:34 AM
How will your business be negatively affected?
Rising costs of the products I sell which are mostly manufactured in the EU, longer lead times, higher retail prices, fewer customers, thst sort of thing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:48:58 AM
Rising costs of the products I sell which are mostly manufactured in the EU, longer lead times, higher retail prices, fewer customers, thst sort of thing.

That sounds very vague. Hopefully you are going to look at the details before 29th March as there's much more than higher prices to consider. There are customs declarations, duty payments and different Vat riles to think about when importing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 06:15:56 PM
That sounds very vague. Hopefully you are going to look at the details before 29th March as there's much more than higher prices to consider. There are customs declarations, duty payments and different Vat riles to think about when importing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal
I’m certainly not prepared to be anymore specific than that but thanks for the advice, I hadn’t considered any of those things before   *%87
Perhaps you can also reassure me that a no deal scenario will have little or no financial impact on any of the points I have raised and which keep many small business owners awake at night?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 06:43:26 PM
I’m certainly not prepared to be anymore specific than that but thanks for the advice, I hadn’t considered any of those things before   *%87
Perhaps you can also reassure me that a no deal scenario will have little or no financial impact on any of the points I have raised and which keep many small business owners awake at night?

I can't tell you what the impact will be any more than the experts can. Instead of worrying and complaining, which achieves nothing, businesses need to inform themselves and prepare.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 06:51:27 PM
I can't tell you what the impact will be any more than the experts can. Instead of worrying and complaining, which achieves nothing, businesses need to inform themselves and prepare.
I’m fully prepared - for fewer customers, lower sales and reduced profits.  I will probably have to make my staff redundant and work six days a week, and forget having a holiday, ever, and give up all thoughts of early retirement and a nice little cottage in the Dordogne.  Oh well, never mind, at least we will have gotten rid of the unelected bureaucrats, with their snouts in the trough that make our lives a living hell currently, and will be able to buy a bendy banana whenever we choose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 07:07:45 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 07:24:04 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.
Let’s hope you’re right.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 08:18:50 PM
Let’s hope you’re right.

The Grauniad reported a few days ago that Mrs May was within 20 votes of a victory for her deal
The DUP will not vote in anyway that increases the possibility of a No Deal. That way they lose pretty much any chance of the "border prize" they seek. With May's deal they are at least  in with a shout. When the malcontents see which way the wind is blowing they will set their jibs accordingly. A No Deal will see alot of them out of work come the next general election. Few will decline the company shilling. Then those pesky Europeans have given her [T.M] a leg up by broadcasting their contingency plans, in the event of no deal, four weeks earlier than the treaties demand.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:30:30 PM
I’m fully prepared - for fewer customers, lower sales and reduced profits.  I will probably have to make my staff redundant and work six days a week, and forget having a holiday, ever, and give up all thoughts of early retirement and a nice little cottage in the Dordogne.  Oh well, never mind, at least we will have gotten rid of the unelected bureaucrats, with their snouts in the trough that make our lives a living hell currently, and will be able to buy a bendy banana whenever we choose.

What a defeatist attitude you have.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:34:31 PM
The Grauniad reported a few days ago that Mrs May was within 20 votes of a victory for her deal
The DUP will not vote in anyway that increases the possibility of a No Deal. That way they lose pretty much any chance of the "border prize" they seek. With May's deal they are at least  in with a shout. When the malcontents see which way the wind is blowing they will set their jibs accordingly. A No Deal will see alot of them out of work come the next general election. Few will decline the company shilling. Then those pesky Europeans have given her [T.M] a leg up by broadcasting their contingency plans, in the event of no deal, four weeks earlier than the treaties demand.

So you think they'll give in, despite all the kicking and screaming? What hypocrites they are; but we knew that anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 20, 2018, 10:09:54 PM
What a defeatist attitude you have.
Ah, but I didn’t live through the good ol’ days of post war misery and rationing like what you did, that’s why I’m such a pathetic wimp and not looking forward to the return of the good ol’ days like what you are.  Probably.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 10:33:04 PM
So you think they'll give in, despite all the kicking and screaming? What hypocrites they are; but we knew that anyway.

I never thought any other way.
You can't operate in a vacuum so our only option is to use EU laws and Harmonised Standards because we have none of our own. That's already a done deal.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:20:19 AM
I never thought any other way.
You can't operate in a vacuum so our only option is to use EU laws and Harmonised Standards because we have none of our own. That's already a done deal.

Didn't we adopt them as our own in the Withdrawal Bill?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:38:06 AM
Ah, but I didn’t live through the good ol’ days of post war misery and rationing like what you did, that’s why I’m such a pathetic wimp and not forward to the return of the good ol’ days like what you are.  Probably.   @)(++(*

If strength and character only develop through adversity then a no deal Brexit might have positive effects. The strong and capable will survive and the incompetent wimps won't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 07:09:39 AM
If strength and character only develop through adversity then a no deal Brexit might have positive effects. The strong and capable will survive and the incompetent wimps won't.
Gosh, that could have been a Nazi slogan!  What will happen to the incompetent wimps then? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 09:07:11 AM
I can’t really disagree with a word of this

Corbyn’s real failing is his refusal to lead
Philip CollinsDecember 20 2018, 5:00pm,
Even faced with May’s chaotic plans for immigration and a no-deal Brexit, Labour still can’t outline a winning policy


The Which? website is not usually the place where politicians seek advice but the absurd twists of Brexit have made it so. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, has declared that, as part of the contingency planning for leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement, he is buying fridges. Which? is carrying an excellent interactive tool for finding the best fridge, which I draw to Mr Hancock’s attention: freestanding or integrated, humidity controls in the salad drawer, that sort of thing.

This is what the government is reducing itself to. As well as the mockery it invites, this should cause a shiver of fear among Labour supporters. How can the official opposition be trailing a government that has a policy of bulk-buying fridges?

Jeremy Corbyn managed to turn the news cycle away from Europe for a few hours by calling Theresa May a “stupid woman” in parliament and then brazenly denying he had done so. Corbyn supporters rushed to their hero’s defence with laughable whataboutery (“why are we discussing this when there is a housing crisis?”) but the language matters.

Sexist language is, quite rightly, heavily policed in the Labour Party. To be exposed as an unthinking man with a sharp tongue both impairs Mr Corbyn’s image as a kinder, gentler politician and offends the Labour culture. If it didn’t matter he would have conceded and apologised. Mr Corbyn is often slippery with language but his supporters grant him Humpty Dumpty status. Words mean what he says they mean. He is so good that he can say words he hasn’t said.

Yet beyond the implications of Mr Corbyn’s language lies a political weakness. Mr Corbyn managed, once more, to find a way not to capitalise on a desperately vulnerable government. Let us not mince words about the shambles the Conservative Party has wrought on this country. There have been two instances this week of Mrs May’s government acting in a manner unprecedented in the history of political strategy; it is now official public policy that Britain should become poorer.

The white paper on immigration, published on Wednesday, is the result of Mrs May’s excessive interpretation that the 2016 referendum was a plebiscite against the free movement of people. The government is proposing to restrict the right of entry of productive workers from elsewhere. By 2025 this policy could, on the government’s own testimony, reduce GDP by between 0.4 per cent and 0.9 per cent of what it would otherwise have been.

This despite the fact that the government has no evidence, and admits that it has no evidence, that wages for British workers will rise or that productivity will improve. The proposal to establish a salary threshold of £30,000, below which visas will be restricted, would have terrible effects in some public services, notably social care which is a low-paid sector reliant on migrant labour. To reduce growth and make services worse. This is now government policy.

Yet this is not all. The government is, at the same time, planning an even more cunning method of reducing growth, which is to leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement. The Department of Transport has announced a “lorry lottery” to allocate permits for cross-Channel trade. This country has 40 trade deals with non-European countries which depend on its membership of the EU and which all lapse in the event that Britain has no deal.

There is likely to be at least some disruption to the 84 per cent of the UK’s exported meat and the 72 per cent of its dairy produce that goes to the EU. The price of food would rise, at least in the short term. A ten-minute wait for every one of the 2.6 million lorries which pass through Dover every year would cause chaos. The government is now in active planning for this outcome and, if Mrs May’s deal falls on January 14 next year, it could even become its preferred option.

We are all becoming inured to terrible politics yet this is extraordinary. It is also unnecessary. It is perfectly possible for Mrs May to say, brooking no contradiction, that she is not prepared to take Britain out of the EU without a deal. To do otherwise, she could and should say, is irresponsible. She could make it plain that she is prepared to delay the point of departure rather than leave on this basis. Instead, she is using the threat of no-deal as a bargaining chip. With the legislation in place to ensure departure on March 29, this could happen by default and accident. It is outrageous that Mrs May, who could say that it won’t be allowed, refuses to say so.

It is important to spell this out because this is the context in which Mr Corbyn’s Labour Party cannot manage a poll lead. There has been almost no change in voting intention since the June 2017 general election which, given the tumult, is an incredible statement. The government is, on every measure except voting intention, in a dire state. It has a net satisfaction rating of minus 45 which is similar to Gordon Brown after the 2008 crash or Mrs Thatcher during the poll tax. A majority of the public think the government is handling Brexit badly and the vast majority think the Tories are a divided party. Ratings like these have always before translated into a significant defect in voting intention. Not now.

It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that Mr Corbyn’s slip-of-the-mind at PMQs on Wednesday was the latest instalment in his series of political failures. Britain is going through a fundamental discussion of its identity and its place and where is the leader of the opposition? On the rare days he shows up for work he has nothing to say. He is clearly the creature of warring advisers in his own entourage.

First he is tabling a motion of no confidence, though not the expected one, and then he isn’t. He wants a general election, he says, but not so much that he tries to get one. He knows that if he fails to secure a general election he would be forced to declare his hand on a second referendum, which he does not want to do. There are even whispers that Mr Corbyn might order his shadow ministers to abstain on Mrs May’s vote next month in the hope that it might sneak through.

Mr Corbyn’s is a less important abdication of leadership than Mrs May’s but it is even more complete. He has to come to a clear position on Europe eventually and he has to start sounding as if he cares. It is no wonder that his approval rating is minus 32, a long way behind the prime minister’s.

There is a lot of political game-playing to go. The Tories are such a rabble that they may yet succeed in giving power away. They will have to because Mr Corbyn is proving himself completely hopeless at taking it.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
Gosh, that could have been a Nazi slogan!  What will happen to the incompetent wimps then?

What? You admitted that you, as a small business owner, have made no attempt to educated yourself about how to deal with a no deal exit from the EU. You also admitted that you had no plans to do so. The only plan you seem to have is to just keep on complaining if your business goes down the pan. When your defeatist attitude was pointed out you admitted being a wimp and said it was due to the fact that you weren't around in the post WW2 era.

I'm sure there are small business owners of a similar age who are taking action in an effort to save their businesses  if a no deal Brexit happens. They may or may not succeed, but at least they'll have tried to save their businesses, their employees jobs and they may yet enjoy their retirement plans. What do you think should happen to those wimps who put no effort in?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 10:35:22 AM
What? You admitted that you, as a small business owner, have made no attempt to educated yourself about how to deal with a no deal exit from the EU. You also admitted that you had no plans to do so. The only plan you seem to have is to just keep on complaining if your business goes down the pan. When your defeatist attitude was pointed out you admitted being a wimp and said it was due to the fact that you weren't around in the post WW2 era.

I'm sure there are small business owners of a similar age who are taking action in an effort to save their businesses  if a no deal Brexit happens. They may or may not succeed, but at least they'll have tried to save their businesses, their employees jobs and they may yet enjoy their retirement plans. What do you think should happen to those wimps who put no effort in?
Could I please have a cite for where I admitted I had made no attempt to educate myself and had made no plans to do so?  I think I outlined my plans insofar as I am able without giving away any detail of the business I am in.  Much of the planning you referred to does not in any case apply to my business but to the businesses that I buy from who import the product from the continent in the first place.   You really don’t seem to understand self-deprecating humour, though clearly enjoy making light of other more serious subject matters.  You have at least admitted that Brexit will bring adversity and that those less well equipped to deal with it will suffer greatly.  And you seem to think this is a good thing!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 11:01:40 AM
Could I please have a cite for where I admitted I had made no attempt to educate myself and had made no plans to do so?  I think I outlined my plans insofar as I am able without giving away any detail of the business I am in.  Much of the planning you referred to does not in any case apply to my business but to the businesses that I buy from who import the product from the continent in the first place.   You really don’t seem to understand self-deprecating humour, though clearly enjoy making light of other more serious subject matters.  You have at least admitted that Brexit will bring adversity and that those less well equipped to deal with it will suffer greatly.  And you seem to think this is a good thing!!

I don't see why you would need to hide the nature of your business, but I expect you have your reasons. If I misunderstood your posts it's perhaps because you were being obscure.

Playing games doesn't impress me, so I'll end our discussion here.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:18:16 AM
I don't see why you would need to hide the nature of your business, but I expect you have your reasons. If I misunderstood your posts it's perhaps because you were being obscure.

Playing games doesn't impress me, so I'll end our discussion here.
I’m not playing games, I have been as frank as I dare be, but I do have quite a specialist business and I know from bitter experience the lengths some people will go to to “out” me.  I’m not pointing the finger at anyone on this forum specifically before you suggest it. 
The long and the short of it is that a no deal Brexit will have a negative impact on my business certainly in the short term (six months to a year), how can it not?  The question is, will I be able to survive six months to a year of post Brexit consequences?  Will I get the stock I need in time and at a price my customers will be prepared to pay?  Will I turn over enough to keep two people in part-time employment?  Will I be able to pay all my significant overheads?   No amount of planning and reading up on the subject is likely to make everything plain sailing, despite what you seem to think, and if my business crashes it will not be through a lack of business acumen, hard graft and balls on my part. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 12:32:16 PM
I’m not playing games, I have been as frank as I dare be, but I do have quite a specialist business and I know from bitter experience the lengths some people will go to to “out” me.  I’m not pointing the finger at anyone on this forum specifically before you suggest it. 
The long and the short of it is that a no deal Brexit will have a negative impact on my business certainly in the short term (six months to a year), how can it not?  The question is, will I be able to survive six months to a year of post Brexit consequences?  Will I get the stock I need in time and at a price my customers will be prepared to pay?  Will I turn over enough to keep two people in part-time employment?  Will I be able to pay all my significant overheads?   No amount of planning and reading up on the subject is likely to make everything plain sailing, despite what you seem to think, and if my business crashes it will not be through a lack of business acumen, hard graft and balls on my part.

I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 01:48:53 PM
Didn't we adopt them as our own in the Withdrawal Bill?

Yes because we had no choice.
This and the immigration bit are where I believe the rabid "leavers" in parliament led the proles up the garden path and dropped them in the pond.
We have to retain EU laws otherwise we have a gaping hole in our legal system which cannot be allowed.
Net EU immigration in 2016 was 74,000 out of a total 248,000, by my reckoning 248k less 74k is few more than the tens of thousands bandied about and those 160k+ are the ones we have little control over.
EU workers taking UK jobs? Well not in agriculture see Tolpuddle Martyrs;  nor in catering. There were issues ten to twenty years ago with French labour taking jobs Brits would not in hotels along the south coast.
Grayling's idea of self sufficiency in food is beyond parody. We nearly starved to death in two world wars and rationing in 1951 was stricter than in the war years. We relied on plundering our Empire for more than a century for our food stuffs.
So that's a few key planks of the leave campaign well and truly mullered......but we were not told that.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
Yes because we had no choice.
This and the immigration bit are where I believe the rabid "leavers" in parliament led the proles up the garden path and dropped them in the pond.
We have to retain EU laws otherwise we have a gaping hole in our legal system which cannot be allowed.
Net EU immigration in 2016 was 74,000 out of a total 248,000, by my reckoning 248k less 74k is few more than the tens of thousands bandied about and those 160k+ are the ones we have little control over.
EU workers taking UK jobs? Well not in agriculture see Tolpuddle Martyrs;  nor in catering. There were issues ten to twenty years ago with French labour taking jobs Brits would not in hotels along the south coast.
Grayling's idea of self sufficiency in food is beyond parody. We nearly starved to death in two world wars and rationing in 1951 was stricter than in the war years. We relied on plundering our Empire for more than a century for our food stuffs.
So that's a few key planks of the leave campaign well and truly mullered......but we were not told that.

I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?
Such as?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 04:32:53 PM
I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.
I was in A & E for several hours this year, hospital for two weeks and in and out of hospital all year.  I would say a good 50% of staff attending to me were non British nationals.  I was in a ward where 5 sixths of the patients were old, white, British, this in a part of the city with high levels of Asiian immigration.  Make of those statistics what you will.  Brexit will as you admit hit the poorest the hardest so why would anyone with any sort of social conscience think that no-deal Brexit will be good or even just “ok” for this country?  It won’t in my (ignorant, ill-informed, don’t read-anything, wimpish) opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:07:12 PM
Such as?

You tell me what you've done and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
You tell me what you've done and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Now you’re playing games.  If you have some advice for me that you think will help me and my business survive the impact of a no-deal Brexit then kindly share it. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:40:50 PM
I was in A & E for several hours this year, hospital for two weeks and in and out of hospital all year.  I would say a good 50% of staff attending to me were non British nationals.  I was in a ward where 5 sixths of the patients were old, white, British, this in a part of the city with high levels of Asiian immigration.  Make of those statistics what you will.  Brexit will as you admit hit the poorest the hardest so why would anyone with any sort of social conscience think that no-deal Brexit will be good or even just “ok” for this country?  It won’t in my (ignorant, ill-informed, don’t read-anything, wimpish) opinion.

I've never said I thought it was good, I said it might not be the car crash being predicted. Most of the prophets of doom are concerned about business needs. If challenged they will say successful businesses=more GDP, more tax revenue and more jobs. Well Amazon is doing great, but it manages not to pay much tax and it doesn't offer job security to it's employees. They are not the only ones either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 06:44:29 PM
I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.

If they are not EU citizens or paying up front, I begrudge it.
"That'll be cash on the barrelhead, son
You can take your choice
You're twenty one
No money down
No credit plan
No time to chase you
'Cause I'm a busy man"

Join the waiting list squire.

The rich stockpiling only works with goods that can be stockpiled. Bread was rationed when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:44:53 PM
Now you’re playing games.  If you have some advice for me that you think will help me and my business survive the impact of a no-deal Brexit then kindly share it.

I tried that, only to realise I was wasting my time. You may have already taken the steps I'm thinking of, so I'll wait until I know what you've already done first.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
I've never said I thought it was good, I said it might not be the car crash being predicted. Most of the prophets of doom are concerned about business needs. If challenged they will say successful businesses=more GDP, more tax revenue and more jobs. Well Amazon is doing great, but it manages not to pay much tax and it doesn't offer job security to it's employees. They are not the only ones either.
I’m not quite sure what you’re on about,  Amazon is an international business and in a supremely powerful position to cope with any impact from post Brexit no-deal chaos.  Most businesses are not Amazon, and Brexit could even be an advantage for internet giants such as them if it causes the closure of even more high street shops in the aftermath of a no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:47:41 PM
I tried that, only to realise I was wasting my time. You may have already taken the steps I'm thinking of, so I'll wait until I know what you've already done first.
I have taken no steps at all.  Now over to you.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 07:03:44 PM
If they are not EU citizens or paying up front, I begrudge it.
"That'll be cash on the barrelhead, son
You can take your choice
You're twenty one
No money down
No credit plan
No time to chase you
'Cause I'm a busy man"

Join the waiting list squire.

The rich stockpiling only works with goods that can be stockpiled. Bread was rationed when I was a kid.

Bread was rationed from July 1946 for two years. You mist be older than me if you can remember that. Rationed goods which could be stockpiled included tea, canned, dried and bottled foods, petrol and coal. During WW2 the nation's health actually improved because everyone got a better diet than before. My mother hated butter but accepted her allocated ration then mashed it up with margarine to disguise the taste.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 07:15:44 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 08:56:36 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!

Your jokes seem to have a habit of falling on stony ground, don't they?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
Your jokes seem to have a habit of falling on stony ground, don't they?
I do find that the Leave Brigade are very po-faced and humourless when it comes to Brexit.  Anyhow, I look forward to hearing your advice on what I need to do to mitigate the effects of a no deal Brexit on my business.  In your own time of course..l
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 10:09:02 PM
Bread was rationed from July 1946 for two years. You mist be older than me if you can remember that. Rationed goods which could be stockpiled included tea, canned, dried and bottled foods, petrol and coal. During WW2 the nation's health actually improved because everyone got a better diet than before. My mother hated butter but accepted her allocated ration then mashed it up with margarine to disguise the taste.

I remember throwing snowballs at mi mum in food queues in the winter of 1947, I was 10 when sweets finally came off ration and 11 when meat came off ration. My eldest sister had to take her ration book with her when she went to university in 1948. The middle sister went to university in 1953 so presumably had to take her ration book too. Something ain't quite right if it takes nine years to stop rationing basic food stuffs, greedy toffs notwithstanding. Or it could be we are not self sufficient in food nor have been since the Napoleonic Wars.
I made it to 75 this year. Mr Reaper had a pop at me late spring. He came down the road with everything he had hoodie, scythe and all but failed dismally. I'll go when I am good and ready don't phone me I'll phone you Mr Reaper.... 8(>((
Wikipedia is quite amusing in places on rationing, especially the Cambridge experiment. The eye opener is the extra points given to diabetics all those years ago. There is an interesting display in Poole Museum re early 1950s rationing shown as a typical kitchen and pantry/larder of the time. It's not particularly inspiring. Having lived through rationing and digging bleeding allotments at age seven/eight I don't have many nostalgic memories of it.
If it happens soon I'll sit on a wagon with an overunder 10 gauge making sure Chris Grayling hoes his row.... @)(++(*


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on December 21, 2018, 10:15:49 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!

She's a gem VS.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on December 21, 2018, 10:19:43 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.

They have no veto as far as I understand Alice.  If there is no deal we leave the EU on the 29th March 2019 by default.  I think this is what the government are now preparing for, nothing else will ever get past a divided Parliament.

IMO the writing is now on the wall. A 'No Deal Brexit' is a real possibility despite Remainers in Parliament attempting to talk it down.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-planning-eu-commission-citizens-rights-business-economy-theresa-may-a8690476.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 10:40:01 PM
They have no veto as far as I understand Alice.  If there is no deal we leave the EU on the 29th March 2019 by default.  I think this is what the government are now preparing for, nothing else will ever get past a divided Parliament.

IMO the writing is now on the wall. A 'No Deal Brexit' is a real possibility despite Remainers in Parliament attempting to talk it down.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-planning-eu-commission-citizens-rights-business-economy-theresa-may-a8690476.html
IMO there will be a deadline extension and the agony will continue for a further six months, year, whatever.   
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 10:46:05 PM
I remember throwing snowballs at mi mum in food queues in the winter of 1947, I was 10 when sweets finally came off ration and 11 when meat came off ration. My eldest sister had to take her ration book with her when she went to university in 1948. The middle sister went to university in 1953 so presumably had to take her ration book too. Something ain't quite right if it takes nine years to stop rationing basic food stuffs, greedy toffs notwithstanding. Or it could be we are not self sufficient in food nor have been since the Napoleonic Wars.
I made it to 75 this year. Mr Reaper had a pop at me late spring. He came down the road with everything he had hoodie, scythe and all but failed dismally. I'll go when I am good and ready don't phone me I'll phone you Mr Reaper.... 8(>((
Wikipedia is quite amusing in places on rationing, especially the Cambridge experiment. The eye opener is the extra points given to diabetics all those years ago. There is an interesting display in Poole Museum re early 1950s rationing shown as a typical kitchen and pantry/larder of the time. It's not particularly inspiring. Having lived through rationing and digging bleeding allotments at age seven/eight I don't have many nostalgic memories of it.
If it happens soon I'll sit on a wagon with an overunder 10 gauge making sure Chris Grayling hoes his row.... @)(++(*

I'm merely 74. No sign of the Reaper yet, but he sneaks up on people sometimes doesn't he? I remember rationing of course, but not feeling deprived at all. Sweets were an occasional treat anyway and my mother was a fabulous cook; I can still remember her liver and bacon for example. Due to clothes rationing she used to go to jumble sales, buy adult knitwear and unwind it to make woollies for me. She also cut down adult dresses to make my clothes. I remember the discomfort of old houses in winter most. Draughty with frost on the inside of the windows, just one coal fire, freezing bedrooms and bathrooms, slippery eiderdowns I had a hot water bottle and bedsocks, but woke up with a freezing nose.

My husband had an overunder, but I don't remember the guage.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 11:05:13 PM
IMO there will be a deadline extension and the agony will continue for a further six months, year, whatever.

That can only happen if the UK Government and the EU both agree to it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
That can only happen if the UK Government and the EU both agree to it.
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on December 21, 2018, 11:20:15 PM
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?

How can G-Unit advise you on your business without knowing what type of business it is, a shop, a factory, a cleaning business.  All will have different needs IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:24:16 PM
How can G-Unit advise you on your business without knowing what type of business it is, a shop, a factory, a cleaning business.  All will have different needs IMO.
I’ve no idea but she claimed earlier that she could (see below) so I continue to wait patiently...

“I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 22, 2018, 07:15:00 AM
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?

I told you how it works.

1. You tell me what you have already done.
2. I will then tell you of anything else I can  think of which might help.

Without 1 you don't get 2.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 22, 2018, 07:17:50 AM
I told you how it works.

1. You tell me what you have already done.
2. I will then tell you of anything else I can  think of which might help.

Without 1 you don't get 2.
I think you will find I have already answered.  But here it is again:  I have taken no steps so far to help mitigate the effects on my business of a no deal Brexit.  Now please educate me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 22, 2018, 09:40:15 AM

I think you will find I have already answered.  But here it is again:  I have taken no steps so far to help mitigate the effects on my business of a no deal Brexit.  Now please educate me.

It's just common sense really. It isn't, as I first thought, you who are importing the goods you sell. Therefore you need to speak to the importers; your suppliers? They should be researching;

The likely amount of any price increases to them.

The likelihood of delays to their deliveries.

If they, like you, have done nothing you could approach other suppliers (if there are any) to see if they're more proactive.


Failing all that, the WTO website lists tariffs, which will give you an idea about price rises. Clearly customs checks will delay deliveries so that needs to be taken into account.

If you have regular customers who order from you, let them know that they should order earlier than normal and perhaps recommend that they order extra in the meantime if the product keeps.
 
If your customers are one off, and you have a website make sure you have a page on Brexit, warning of any future price rises or delays as a result of a no deal exit. (Is that a Nexit lol?)


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on December 22, 2018, 05:37:54 PM
It's just common sense really. It isn't, as I first thought, you who are importing the goods you sell. Therefore you need to speak to the importers; your suppliers? They should be researching;

The likely amount of any price increases to them.

The likelihood of delays to their deliveries.

If they, like you, have done nothing you could approach other suppliers (if there are any) to see if they're more proactive.


Failing all that, the WTO website lists tariffs, which will give you an idea about price rises. Clearly customs checks will delay deliveries so that needs to be taken into account.

If you have regular customers who order from you, let them know that they should order earlier than normal and perhaps recommend that they order extra in the meantime if the product keeps.
 
If your customers are one off, and you have a website make sure you have a page on Brexit, warning of any future price rises or delays as a result of a no deal exit. (Is that a Nexit lol?)
Most of the companies I deal with directly are global organizations and are already putting plans in place and have issued warnings.  Customer pre-ordering is standard practice in my company already as it helps me to gauge demand.  Thanks for the advice (genuinely) but in practice there is very little I can do to plan for a no deal Brexit, apart from to consider what alternatives are within my control going forward  - product mix, overheads including staffing levels, opening hours, maximizing online sales opportunities etc marketing, most things which I am constantly considering and tweaking / implementing anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
So the UK are moving inexorably towards a no deal Brexit. If they reject May's deal next week they have no other option in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 11, 2019, 07:22:51 AM
So the UK are moving inexorably towards a no deal Brexit. If they reject May's deal next week they have no other option in my opinion.
And this is what those who voted leave wanted all along.  So bring it on.  I look forward to hearing them blame everyone but themselves when it all goes to shit.  Not. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2019, 10:12:20 AM
And this is what those who voted leave wanted all along.  So bring it on.  I look forward to hearing them blame everyone but themselves when it all goes to shit.  Not.

Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.
Oh I’m clearly not a democrat am I?  And your evidence for this is what exactly?  The fact that I’m a pessimist and used a naughty word?  What piffle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2019, 07:29:01 AM
Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.

Can it be considered a democratic vote when:
- the electorate had no way of knowing the implications at the time?
- some politicians engaged in dodgy campaign tactics (cf Farage, Banks and the Cambridge Analytica saga), using money from as yet unclear sources, with campaign messages that were largely on the spectrum ranging from misleading to false?
- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted against it?
- UK citizens resident in Europe for 15+ years were banned from voting?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
Can it be considered a democratic vote when:
- the electorate had no way of knowing the implications at the time?
- some politicians engaged in dodgy campaign tactics (cf Farage, Banks and the Cambridge Analytica saga), using money from as yet unclear sources, with campaign messages that were largely on the spectrum ranging from misleading to false?
- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted against it?
- UK citizens resident in Europe for 15+ years were banned from voting?

It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.
Do you think the population of Great Britain is better informed now about the EU and the risks of leaving it now than they were three years ago?  Is it a good idea to take a course of action the outcome of which for the entire country is (according to you) completely unknown?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 13, 2019, 03:08:13 PM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

At a general election political parties set out a detailed manifesto, and this is subject to detailed critique by the press and rival parties. 

And it is subject to another election in 5 years.

Vote leave were v economical with the truth and the likely outcome is very different from that which was promised. 

My thoughts are that you should have a second referendum. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 09:17:33 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 14, 2019, 09:43:10 AM
At a general election political parties set out a detailed manifesto, and this is subject to detailed critique by the press and rival parties. 

And it is subject to another election in 5 years.

Vote leave were v economical with the truth and the likely outcome is very different from that which was promised. 

My thoughts are that you should have a second referendum.

Agreed. If you vote in a general election and the government doesn't deliver, you can vote differently next time.

Not so with Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 10:55:19 AM
Agreed. If you vote in a general election and the government doesn't deliver, you can vote differently next time.

Not so with Brexit.

So democracy is only valid if there's a time limit on the result? The people's will is axcceptable every five years but not otherwise? The political class are, in my opinion, heading for a harsh lesson. Unlike our monarchs of old they have no right to rule, devine or otherwise. They are where they are with the permission of the people. Riding roughshod over the will of the people is a very risky game in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 11:14:50 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.

Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 12:59:33 PM
Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.

People have been told for years that they live in a democracy. Other countries have been criticised for being undemocratic. It beggars belief that our politicians have publicly and blatently refused to accept the result of a democratic referendum. They all deserve to lose their seats.

Farage gave his opinion this morning. According to him 90% of our trade takes place outside the EU under WTO rules. On the supply chain scare tactics he quoted the assurance by the ports in France that there would be no delays in movement. He also promised to get involved in campaigning again if he thought it necessary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:43:04 PM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.
Piers Morgan?  Esther McVey?  The voices of reason??  *Shiver*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:44:12 PM
So democracy is only valid if there's a time limit on the result? The people's will is axcceptable every five years but not otherwise? The political class are, in my opinion, heading for a harsh lesson. Unlike our monarchs of old they have no right to rule, devine or otherwise. They are where they are with the permission of the people. Riding roughshod over the will of the people is a very risky game in my opinion.
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:46:02 PM
Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.
The next day is a Saturday so business will be bracing itself for the Monday markets and the massivedrop in the value of the pound which will suit your millionaire Brexiteers down to the ground, but your average Brit probably not so much. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
The next day is a Saturday so business will be bracing itself for the Monday markets and the massivedrop in the value of the pound which will suit your millionaire Brexiteers down to the ground, but your average Brit probably not so much.

Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:09:25 PM
Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.
It’s rubbish the pound will plummet on April 1st 2019?  OK we’ll see.  What foodstuffs from outside the EU are you looking forward to getting cheaper?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:10:19 PM
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.

All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals after the actual split.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:11:30 PM
All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals afterwards.
You didn’t explain why giving the people a chance to vote on the final outcome was undemocratic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:14:45 PM
It’s rubbish the pound will plummet on April 1st 2019?  OK we’ll see.  What foodstuffs from outside the EU are you looking forward to getting cheaper?

Actually I can see the pound strengthen after we leave the EU on the 29th March as the future under WTO terms is extremely bright.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:17:29 PM
You didn’t explain why giving the people a chance to vote on the final outcome was undemocratic.

The people voted to leave the EU so leave it must be.  There is no need whatsoever for a second vote.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Actually I can see the pound strengthen after we leave the EU on the 29th March as the future under WTO terms is extremely bright.
Will we have to wear shades?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:26:38 PM
The people voted to leave the EU so leave it must be.  There is no need whatsoever for a second vote.
You still didn’t explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote again was undemocratic.  What are Leavers so afraid of?  No deal would win wouldn’t it?  After all it’s “The Will Of The People”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 07:46:35 PM
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.

The people have already voted on this issue in a free and fair referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 08:00:32 PM
The people have already voted on this issue in a free and fair referendum.
Why is it undemocratic to give them (us) the final say on whether to go for May’s version of Brexit, or something else?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 09:27:10 PM
Why is it undemocratic to give them (us) the final say on whether to go for May’s version of Brexit, or something else?

Democracy means abiding by the result of the vote. That's what the politicians need to do rather than thinking up new questions. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
Democracy means abiding by the result of the vote. That's what the politicians need to do rather than thinking up new questions.
Why is it undemocratic to give people a vote?  Any ideas?  Didn’t think so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 07:19:43 AM
Why is it undemocratic to give people a vote?  Any ideas?  Didn’t think so.

It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:01:24 AM
It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.
That’s silly IMO.  We’re only in this mess because the government acted on “the will of the people” and triggered article 50.  Now we know precisely what the options are, how is it undemocratic to have a vote on them, unless you are saying that the people all voted for “no deal” nearly 3 years ago?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 08:02:17 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.

Re Esther McVey, and others who find that sailing off into the sunset into the unknown without a deal is no big issue, IMO they're either blissfully ignorant or deliberately misleading.

"Trading under WTO rules" is an example - 163 member countries trade under WTO rules (otherwise they couldn't be members), but the crucial point is that they don't JUST trade on WTO terms. The WTO is a treaty (and dispute-resolution body) that establishes the skeleton of trade (but doesn't deal with the intricacies of trade in numerous services). The whole purpose of trade treaties and bi-multilateral agreements is to improve on the "worst-case scenario" which is... WTO terms.

As a member of the EU, the UK has tariff-free access to the biggest trading bloc in the world (the EU single market) and the customs union, and to 36 non-EU countries.

Another point is that, for some strange reason, a lot of these politicians seem to think that tariffs are the only issue and ignore the much more complicated issues of regulations, certification, customs, etc.

Beyond all that, leaving the EU isn't just about trade, either. What about all the areas of cooperation that the UK will no longer have access to (or will have limited access to), such as security, research, mutual recognition of academic  qualifications... even pet passports?

Many of the gripes that the media has been whingeing about for decades are domestic issues, not EU ones.

The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the UK is about to lose what was considerable influence in shaping it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:05:38 AM
G-Unit, if you take “no Brexit” off the ballot card and hold a second referendum would you consider THAT undemocratic?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:24:53 AM
Re Esther McVey, and others who find that sailing off into the sunset into the unknown without a deal is no big issue, IMO they're either blissfully ignorant or deliberately misleading.

"Trading under WTO rules" is an example - 163 member countries trade under WTO rules (otherwise they couldn't be members), but the crucial point is that they don't JUST trade on WTO terms. The WTO is a treaty (and dispute-resolution body) that establishes the skeleton of trade (but doesn't deal with the intricacies of trade in numerous services). The whole purpose of trade treaties and bi-multilateral agreements is to improve on the "worst-case scenario" which is... WTO terms.

As a member of the EU, the UK has tariff-free access to the biggest trading bloc in the world (the EU single market) and the customs union, and to 36 non-EU countries.

Another point is that, for some strange reason, a lot of these politicians seem to think that tariffs are the only issue and ignore the much more complicated issues of regulations, certification, customs, etc.

Beyond all that, leaving the EU isn't just about trade, either. What about all the areas of cooperation that the UK will no longer have access to (or will have limited access to), such as security, research, mutual recognition of academic  qualifications... even pet passports?

Many of the gripes that the media has been whingeing about for decades are domestic issues, not EU ones.

The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the UK is about to lose what was considerable influence in shaping it.
Well said. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 08:40:27 AM
Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.


Re the £, if by "factored in Brexit" you mean the fact that it is now close to the worst-ever FX rate from a UK perspective since the banking crisis, then yes, one could hope that it won't crash too much further (unless the UK crashes out with no deal).

Re your second point, trading with countries outside of the EU with which the EU has already negotiated treaties and agreements will mean WTO tariffs. So how do the higher WTO tariffs, coupled with a £ that is 30% weaker than it was before the referendum equate to cheaper foodstuffs, unless the UK allows dumping from countries with lower phytosanitary standards?

How will UK farmers who export their produce fare with all the extra admin and EU tariffs that will make their produce more expensive for EU consumers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:01:31 AM
Another elephant in the room is what on earth are the UK plans for the service sector, which happens to make up 80% of the UK economy? Mystery...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:24:14 AM
It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.

On one level, I can understand that perspective. However, I don't see it that way regarding this issue as no one seems to have had a clear idea of what Brexit actually meant. Even the politicians who are supposed to don't seem to know, let alone agree, so how could the ordinary voting public have done two years earlier?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals after the actual split.

With what as bargaining chips?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

I'm aware of that. The EU didn't exist at the time, but the UK (of varying party flavours over time) has been one of the key players at the table shaping what it has become.

There appears to be a saying that for the EU, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. (I don't fully agree with that in this instance as the EU appears to have bent over backwards to be as helpful as possible without crossing its own red lines.) However, once the UK is out, I wouldn't expect the EU to be quite so accommodating...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 09:40:28 AM
That’s silly IMO.  We’re only in this mess because the government acted on “the will of the people” and triggered article 50.  Now we know precisely what the options are, how is it undemocratic to have a vote on them, unless you are saying that the people all voted for “no deal” nearly 3 years ago?

It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:52:41 AM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.

Despite the fact that some politicians appeared to believe that Brexit somehow meant largely carrying on as before minus freedom of movement, and that mega deals on every issue would be ready to sign at 23:10 GMT, the current "deal" is simply about the terms of the divorce, with a non-binding waffly annexe about the future.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.

Hmmm. The referendum was advisory.

If the government had done its homework BEFORE a) the referendum and b) before triggering Article 50, the UK might not be in its current mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
I wish someone could explain to me - with fact-based pointers - just how UK citizens will be better off than it currently is as a member.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:19:15 AM
On one level, I can understand that perspective. However, I don't see it that way regarding this issue as no one seems to have had a clear idea of what Brexit actually meant. Even the politicians who are supposed to don't seem to know, let alone agree, so how could the ordinary voting public have done two years earlier?

It seems to me that it's time for some truth. Those who don't know should say so. Those with a vested interest should reveal it. Those taking idealogical positions should admit it.

The electorate has been subjected to so much spin and misinformation in recent years that they don't believe what anyone says any more. Therefore they made their own minds up during the referendum campaign and voted for what they wanted.

The electorate was then castigated for the way they voted. Those whose job it was to inform didn't blame themselves for dailing to convince, they blamed the voters for failing to understand. They were told they were too stupid, too racist or too old to know what they were doing.

I think the voters remember that and won't be swayed by those people in future either. I'm not a Conservative but I've seen two recently speaking calmly and, I believe, sincerely; Esther McVey and Jacob Rees Mogg. If another vote becomes a reality it is my opinion that the voters will listen to those who are calm, sincere and reassuring, not the prophets of doom.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:34:16 AM
Hmmm. The referendum was advisory.

If the government had done its homework BEFORE a) the referendum and b) before triggering Article 50, the UK might not be in its current mess.

The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 15, 2019, 02:09:42 PM
The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.

I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 15, 2019, 03:40:56 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.

Who would you vote for though John?

Personally I don't like any of them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 05:23:00 PM
It seems to me that it's time for some truth. Those who don't know should say so. Those with a vested interest should reveal it. Those taking idealogical positions should admit it.

The electorate has been subjected to so much spin and misinformation in recent years that they don't believe what anyone says any more. Therefore they made their own minds up during the referendum campaign and voted for what they wanted.

The electorate was then castigated for the way they voted. Those whose job it was to inform didn't blame themselves for dailing to convince, they blamed the voters for failing to understand. They were told they were too stupid, too racist or too old to know what they were doing.

I think the voters remember that and won't be swayed by those people in future either. I'm not a Conservative but I've seen two recently speaking calmly and, I believe, sincerely; Esther McVey and Jacob Rees Mogg. If another vote becomes a reality it is my opinion that the voters will listen to those who are calm, sincere and reassuring, not the prophets of doom.

I'd agree with most of that except that I'm not at all impressed by either Esther McVey or Jacob Rees Mogg (nor am I by a long list of other politicians for that matter).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.

How would a general election improve the general chaos with only 10 weeks to go until D-day?

Irrespective of who one may vote for in less turbulent times, who else could steer their way through the current Brexit clusterf**k? Extremists on either side of the political spectrum are the last thing the UK needs right now, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.
So everyone who voted to Leave wanted to do so immediately and without any negotiation, or to have their cake and eat it?  Do you have a cite for this?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:07:55 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.
And in its place...?  Who is looking forward to a Brexit under a Labour government?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 06:15:23 PM
The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.

Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:23:39 PM
Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.
Did you watch “An Uncivil War”?  It was terrific, and made you realise what a bunch of self-interested, reckless shysters were behind the Leave campaign.  IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 06:55:21 PM
Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.

If you think your fellow citizens were taken in by the antics of either side you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the voters as the politicians did (and some still do).

I think our policians may need remedial English teaching. The man responsible for inventing the 'Brexit' word was just interviewed; a former adviser to Cameron. He was asked why he thought Parliament was so reluctant to leave the EU, given that the electorate voted to leave.

His answer was that 'no-one knows what 'out' means. It seems our politicians are unable to grasp that 'out' is the opposite of 'in'. It doesn't mean out of some things but still in others, or partly out but not just yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 07:36:30 PM
If you think your fellow citizens were taken in by the antics of either side you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the voters as the politicians did (and some still do).

I think our policians may need remedial English teaching. The man responsible for inventing the 'Brexit' word was just interviewed; a former adviser to Cameron. He was asked why he thought Parliament was so reluctant to leave the EU, given that the electorate voted to leave.

His answer was that 'no-one knows what 'out' means. It seems our politicians are unable to grasp that 'out' is the opposite of 'in'. It doesn't mean out of some things but still in others, or partly out but not just yet.
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 15, 2019, 07:53:21 PM
Corbyn tables vote of no confidence following catastrophic loss in Deal vote.

For: 202  Against: 432. (Majority: 230)

Who's going to get us out of this mess?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:12:02 PM
Corbyn tables vote of no confidence following catastrophic loss in Deal vote.

For: 202  Against: 432. (Majority: 230)

Who's going to get us out of this mess?
Corbyn.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
Did you watch “An Uncivil War”?  It was terrific, and made you realise what a bunch of self-interested, reckless shysters were behind the Leave campaign.  IMO.

Not yet. Was it on Ch4? I watched the undercover Ch4 one about Cambridge Analytica. Quite something.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:53:06 PM
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?

I distinctly remember being told that various EU countries would be knocking down doors to keep UK trade. The EU will certainly be worse off post-Brexit, but the UK will be the biggest loser. EU countries can diversify tommorow to other members plus all the non-EU countries with which deals have been made.

The UK will have to start from scratch. And trade deals take years, not months. Even the relatively simple Canada deal took 6 years to negotiate and 2 to ratify, IIRC.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
Not yet. Was it on Ch4? I watched the undercover Ch4 one about Cambridge Analytica. Quite something.
Yes, Channel 4, well worth watching.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:36:49 PM
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?

There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 15, 2019, 10:41:11 PM
There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.
Simple question, as you seem to know exactly what all leavers voted for - was it to leave the EU without attempting to secure any sort of deal that would mitigate the potential downsides of leaving?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:08:19 AM
Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 07:35:13 AM
Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.

Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:21:32 AM
Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?
Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:22:41 AM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/
LOL.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:25:26 AM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.
Negotiation?  But all leavers wanted to leave without any sort of deal I thought?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:01:25 AM
Boris Johnson didn’t appear to support leaving the EU with no deal and  trading on WTO terms with our nearest neighbours:

“Johnson called for Britain and the EU to negotiate a free-trade agreement – dubbed “Super Canada” – mirroring the deal the bloc signed with Ottawa in 2016.
It removed the vast majority of customs duties on exports crossing the Atlantic.
He conceded that negotiating such an agreement, which would aim for mutual recognition of standards to keep goods moving and also include services, may require extending any Brexit transition period beyond 2020”

I wonder what his position is now? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:04:57 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history

Liam Fox seemed keen on the benefits of doing a trade deal with the EU, when did he advocate pre-referendum that a vote to leave should mean a vote to go onto WTO terms with the EU and not bother trying to get a deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 09:33:10 AM
Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too?

I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
 Daniel Hannan, a Tory MEP and one of the faces of Vote Leave, declared: "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market." Boris Johnson, now foreign secretary, declared in the aftermath of the vote that Britain would retain access to the single market.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:41:52 AM
I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.
As this subject seems to interest you perhaps you could spend an hour or two researching whether or not a vote to leave the EU was understood by all to mean no single market and no attempt at brokering a deal with the EU, switching automatically to WTO two years after triggering Article 50.  Who talked about that in the Leave campaign?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:44:45 AM
6 'Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market'

Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP who is often described as the “godfather of Brexit” repeatedly assured voters that Britain would not leave the single market if they voted to leave the EU.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,” he said.

Owen Paterson, a Tory MP and a prominent campaigner for Vote Leave made similar claims.

“Only a madman would actually leave the market,” Mr Paterson said.

Since the referendum Ms May has repeatedly said that Brexit would mean leaving the single market.

Following the referendum Oliver Norgrove, a former Vote Leave staffer, who supports staying in the single market, urged people to check the official campaign’s website and official literature – noting that the things they had campaigned for were “utterly achievable in the EEA and make no mention at all of leaving the single market”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:45:58 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:47:20 AM
Let me know if you require any more evidence.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:54:39 AM
Oh, and this
https://www.markpack.org.uk/154126/leave-voters-expected-britain-stay-single-market/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 10:10:04 AM
As this subject seems to interest you perhaps you could spend an hour or two researching whether or not a vote to leave the EU was understood by all to mean no single market and no attempt at brokering a deal with the EU, switching automatically to WTO two years after triggering Article 50.  Who talked about that in the Leave campaign?

Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 10:41:56 AM
Boris Johnson didn’t appear to support leaving the EU with no deal and  trading on WTO terms with our nearest neighbours:

“Johnson called for Britain and the EU to negotiate a free-trade agreement – dubbed “Super Canada” – mirroring the deal the bloc signed with Ottawa in 2016.
It removed the vast majority of customs duties on exports crossing the Atlantic.
He conceded that negotiating such an agreement, which would aim for mutual recognition of standards to keep goods moving and also include services, may require extending any Brexit transition period beyond 2020”

I wonder what his position is now?

Boris has said lots of things over times...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-secret-pro-eu-article-revealed-expressing-doubts-brexit-a7363781.html


https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/boris-johnson-brexit-speech-changed-his-mind-remain-2018-2
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 10:52:53 AM
Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.
"Our terms" meaning considerably more expensive.  What marvellous terms they will be.  Oh well.  I'm sure the British public will be delighted when prices go up on all of these things, it's what they voted for after all.  Meanwhile they will be able to enjoy cheap foodstuffs from outside the EU like chlorine washed chicken (If Trump decides to do a trade deal with us, and it's a big if).  I say “they” as I don’t eat chicken, chlorinated or otherwise, and prefer my food to have done as few airmiles as possible.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
"Our terms" meaning considerably more expensive.  What marvellous terms they will be.  Oh well.  I'm sure the British public will be delighted when prices go up on all of these things, it's what they voted for after all.  Meanwhile they will be able to enjoy cheap foodstuffs from outside the EU like chlorine washed chicken (If Trump decides to do a trade deal with us, and it's a big if).  I say “they” as I don’t eat chicken, chlorinated or otherwise, and prefer my food to have done as few air miles as possible.

A small price to pay initially for getting out of what is effectively a German Superstate by the back door.

The food standards in the UK will not be compromised following Brexit, this is simply scaremongering oka project fear.  Goods will inevitably be cheaper in the long run as countries begin to trade with the UK on WTO rules.

Having seen he way the EU has destroyed Spain the sooner we get out the better.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:17:51 PM
A small price to pay initially for getting out of what is effectively a German Superstate by the back door.

The food standards in the UK will not be compromised following Brexit, this is simply scaremongering oka project fear.  Goods will inevitably be cheaper in the long run as countries begin to trade with the UK on WTO rules.

Having seen he way the EU has destroyed Spain the sooner we get out the better.
How you have the nerve to talk about "scaremongering" in the same breath as emoting about "German Superstate" and "destroying Spain" is beyond me...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 12:44:43 PM
How you have the nerve to talk about "scaremongering" in the same breath as emoting about "German Superstate" and "destroying Spain" is beyond me...

Are you denying the influence Germans have in the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
Are you denying the influence Germans have in the EU?
Of course I'm not denying they are one of the key players in the EU and therefore influential.  What does John mean by the EU being a German Superstate then?  I suppose you don't see that as hysterical hyperbole or scaremongering.   I would call it Germanophobia, with its roots in a deep fear and mistrust of the Germans because of two world wars. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 01:00:07 PM
Of course I'm not denying they are one of the key players in the EU and therefore influential.  What does John mean by the EU being a German Superstate then?  I suppose you don't see that as hysterical hyperbole or scaremongering.   I would call it Germanophobia, with its roots in a deep fear and mistrust of the Germans because of two world wars.

Sir Bill Cash MP, speaking in Parliament on the 'Withdrawal Agreement', says the EU is nothing more than an attempt to create a German Superstate.  I happen to agree with Sir Bill, Germany has got too big for its boots again and should have its powers in Europe trimmed.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 01:14:19 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 01:22:27 PM
Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.

He does a lot of backtracking does Boris.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:22:34 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 01:23:58 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.

Not a chance. The DUP have said they will support her as they don't want Jeremy Corbyn in power and the Conservatives will not vote to oust themselves either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
Oh, and this
https://www.markpack.org.uk/154126/leave-voters-expected-britain-stay-single-market/

They seem to have asked those who voted leave if they voted to leave the single market as well as the EU. The one third who said yes probably knew the two things were linked. Did the other two thirds understand this? Even Boris Johnson seemed to think the UK could pick and choose which EU institutions they left or stayed in. If the politicians didn't understand what the vote was about they need to resign imo.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:28:23 PM
Not a chance. The DUP have said they will support her as they don't want Jeremy Corbyn in power and the Conservatives will not vote to oust themselves either.

Corbyn must have thought he was in with a chance.  Anna Soubry just called him,  "the most useless leader of the opposition they have ever had"  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:38:48 PM
Sir Bill Cash MP, speaking in Parliament on the 'Withdrawal Agreement', says the EU is nothing more than an attempt to create a German Superstate.  I happen to agree with Sir Bill, Germany has got too big for its boots again and should have its powers in Europe trimmed.
Hyperbole and scaremongering is not limited to Remainers or people on internet forums then. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:40:34 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.
The vote is not in Theresa May but in the government, and no, I don't think the government will lose the vote as most sane MPs realise that a general election now with the prospect of Chairman Corbyn in charge of Brexit is enough to cause an outbeak of mass suicide amongst the electorate. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:42:35 PM
They seem to have asked those who voted leave if they voted to leave the single market as well as the EU. The one third who said yes probably knew the two things were linked. Did the other two thirds understand this? Even Boris Johnson seemed to think the UK could pick and choose which EU institutions they left or stayed in. If the politicians didn't understand what the vote was about they need to resign imo.
Are you now suggesting that the ever-so bright leave voters and politicians didn't understand what they were voting for?  Surely not!!  You seem to have done a complete volte-face, and haven't even had the decency to thank me for my numerous cites earlier.  No change there then!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 02:06:04 PM
Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.
That's because being a bright lad he knows  deep down what a disaster leaving the EU will be for our country economically
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 02:32:45 PM
Are you now suggesting that the ever-so bright leave voters and politicians didn't understand what they were voting for?  Surely not!!  You seem to have done a complete volte-face, and haven't even had the decency to thank me for my numerous cites earlier.  No change there then!

The voters voted to leave the EU. The single market didn't appear on the ballot paper, so why should they know if they voted to leave that? Obviously they did, because it's one part of the EU. I never said they were experts on the various parts of the EU; I'm certainly not. What I did say is that they are bright enough to recognise spin and scaremongering when it occurs.

Boris Johnson isn't a details man either, but has less justification for his ignorance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
The voters voted to leave the EU. The single market didn't appear on the ballot paper, so why should they know if they voted to leave that? Obviously they did, because it's one part of the EU. I never said they were experts on the various parts of the EU; I'm certainly not. What I did say is that they are bright enough to recognise spin and scaremongering when it occurs.

Boris Johnson isn't a details man either, but has less justification for his ignorance.

What you did say was this:

"It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that".

Which would suggest to me (unless I'm very much mistaken) that you think the government was wrong to try and broker any sort of trade deal with the EU, but instead revert to WTO terms after two years.  This you seemed to think is what people voted for when they voted leave, and that no one wanted a negotiation with Brussels.  However, in all the spin and scaremongering from the Leave campaign where was it ever spelt out that this is precisely what was being advocated? Many prominent leavers are now claiming that no deal is what they always wanted all along, having conveniently forgotten what they'd previously advocated in the run up to and immediate aftermath of the referendum.. That was the point being made by the Daniel Finkelstein article which I posted and which you called into question, demanding cites and names.  Now that I have provided those you seem to be deflecting somewhat rather than acknowledging that both he and I have a valid point.  I expected nothing more tbh. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 03:34:17 PM
Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.

"Our terms"?? What do you mean by that?

The UK will not be able to pick and choose which products it wants from which EU countries, for the simple reason that the EU is a trading bloc. There's either a global deal with the entire EU (which generally takes around 10 years, although perhaps a little less in the case of a former member if it remains closely aligned) or it's WTO terms.

If, as an independent WTO member, the UK offers concessions to the EU on specific goods, it will have to offer the same terms to every other WTO member.

That doesn't even touch on issues surrounnding the service industry (80% of the UK economy) nor the mess facing UK exporters to the EU (or elsewhere).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 03:48:56 PM
Corbyn must have thought he was in with a chance.  Anna Soubry just called him,  "the most useless leader of the opposition they have ever had"  @)(++(*

With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:57:34 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.
You can say that again. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 04:03:36 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.

Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and a non entity.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and incompetent.

All he wants is power - at whatever cost to the country. He is so clear on this IMO. I have read too that he is actually a Brexit supporter but Jeremy comes first - the country somewhere down at the bottom, at least that is how it would appear to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.

I'm afraid I can't cope with Corbyn any more than Farage.

He could have clearly supported Remain or even a 2nd referendum or a revocation of Art. 50, but even now is shuffling around. From what I've read, a reason could be because he has grand plans of nationalising whatever he can (true or not) and the EU has conditions surrounding that.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 04:11:27 PM
Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and a non entity.
He will be forced into a corner to push for a Second Referendum, which he doesn't want to do.  Poor love.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 04:43:32 PM
He will be forced into a corner to push for a Second Referendum, which he doesn't want to do.  Poor love.

A second referendum won't change anything because parliament will still want their say in the end and we all know how it is split right up the middle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
A second referendum won't change anything because parliament will still want their say in the end and we all know how it is split right up the middle.

I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 16, 2019, 05:51:10 PM
Love this twitter account, and the work they are doing to remind us all of the duplicity and stupidity of people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Dominic Raab et al
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys?lang=en-gb
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2019, 06:00:01 PM
I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.

They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 06:21:37 PM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2019, 07:17:21 PM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....

You could just about do it on the stamp in 24pt....... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2019, 08:49:52 AM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....

I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

Thanks for that, well laid out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 10:13:51 AM
They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

A very interesting read. It explains why the motor and financial services sectors have been mentioned so often. As the largest exporters to the EU they are likely to be more affected, but there are other businesses who don't seem worried at all, not even by a no deal Brexit.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257

I like to watch Sir Keir Starmer's face when Mr Corbyn is speaking!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 01:44:11 PM
I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257

If you mean his Parliamentary Party he never was popular as we saw after he became leader. He is sticking with Labour's plan as decided at it's Party conference. Labour's priority is to force a General Election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
If you mean his Parliamentary Party he never was popular as we saw after he became leader. He is sticking with Labour's plan as decided at it's Party conference. Labour's priority is to force a General Election.

I have read and also heard on the news that Jeremy Corbyn's Momentum people have been forcing moderate Labour MP's and Councillors out of office.      IMO he is a Marxist and supporter of terrorists and I never want him as PM.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 17, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.

Parliament no longer represents the people and that is a dangerous position for any country to be in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
Parliament no longer represents the people and that is a dangerous position for any country to be in.

I have never had much faith in MPs but never less than now as they seem to be insulting voters and ignoring their wishes.   It is very dangerous and that we will all suffer because of them whether we voted remain or brexit.

I voted remain but if it we had another vote (this so called "peoples vote" I would vote for Brexit.    Why? I was a waverer anyway at the time, and the way the government, parliament and the EU also have treated voters has been so shabby I now want OUT of the lot of em.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 05:20:16 PM
I have never had much faith in MPs but never less than now as they seem to be insulting voters and ignoring their wishes.   It is very dangerous and that we will all suffer because of them whether we voted remain or brexit.

I voted remain but if it we had another vote (this so called "peoples vote" I would vote for Brexit.    Why? I was a waverer anyway at the time, and the way the government, parliament and the EU also have treated voters has been so shabby I now want OUT of the lot of em.

I think a lot of people feel like you, totally disillusioned with the lot of them. If they get another vote they will want to teach the politicians a lesson, and voting out with no deal would be the obvious way to do it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2019, 07:04:21 PM
Donald Tusk said:

"If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?"

Fair comment I suppose.

To my list of disliked overused misused expressions running at [so far]:
"Grass roots"
"Gate" as a suffix to any random seemingly contentious "secret" that has been given away.
"Winter of discontent" used in the context of actual season and not how Bill Wagstaff penned it originally.
"[un]fit for purpose". When used outside I Chem E Conditions of Contract.
"our" as an unnecessary prefix as in "our NHS".
I add "peoples" as in "Peoples Princess" and "peoples vote".

They've turned the language upside down and they've aimed it out the door
What 'ave they done, can anyone speak English anymore ?


The bloody peoples had a vote on EU in or out and don't need another one.
End of rant  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 17, 2019, 07:22:37 PM
A very interesting read. It explains why the motor and financial services sectors have been mentioned so often. As the largest exporters to the EU they are likely to be more affected, but there are other businesses who don't seem worried at all, not even by a no deal Brexit.
Does that include British farmers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 17, 2019, 07:24:23 PM
I think a lot of people feel like you, totally disillusioned with the lot of them. If they get another vote they will want to teach the politicians a lesson, and voting out with no deal would be the obvious way to do it.
Then the GBP are even more stupid than previously feared.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 09:39:47 AM
Then the GBP are even more stupid than previously feared.  @)(++(*

If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 18, 2019, 05:02:59 PM
If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?

Are you aware of any plan that anyone has put forward, let alone is ready to implement (by someone who actually understands everything that needs to be put in place) that would enable the UK to thrive with a no-deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 05:36:15 PM
Are you aware of any plan that anyone has put forward, let alone is ready to implement (by someone who actually understands everything that needs to be put in place) that would enable the UK to thrive with a no-deal?

The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 18, 2019, 06:01:09 PM
The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.

Out of the £350m per week for the NHS on the side of the bus?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 18, 2019, 06:59:59 PM
If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 18, 2019, 07:13:24 PM
The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.
What the hell is Michael Gove (Leaver) on about then?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/03/no-deal-brexit-would-cause-turbulence-for-farmers-says-gove
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 07:38:25 PM
What the hell is Michael Gove (Leaver) on about then?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/03/no-deal-brexit-would-cause-turbulence-for-farmers-says-gove

Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 18, 2019, 07:52:39 PM
Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
And?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 06:39:06 AM
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO.


Monty Python and the Black Knight...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 08:11:05 AM
Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf

You might be right, but I don't see how your second statement necessarily follows from the first one.

Aside from domestic consumption and exports of raw commodities, presumably some farmers sell raw ingredients (off the top of my head: the grains needed for Scotch whisky, for example) to UK manufacturers who then export the processed products.

I think it would be misleading to assume that those farmers (the raw ingredient suppliers to UK manufacturers) wouldn't be affected by a no-deal. IMO, they would be as tariffs for non-EU members on processed foods are generally considerably higher than for "raw" (fresh / frozen) produce.

Norway (non-EU, but with EFTA benefits) exports fresh salmon to Poland for processing. Lower wages are one factor but so is the export tariff which is lower (2% for fresh / frozen) versus 13% if it were to export the salmon already smoked. As an EU member, Poland can then export the smoked salmon to other EU countries tariff-free.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-norway-salmon/norway-satisfies-eu-smoked-salmon-appetite-through-polish-back-door-idUKKCN0WI1VH

There is also the issue of tariff quotas (higher tariffs for nationwide exports of whatever over a certain quota), plus seasonal tariffs on fresh produce. I'll add a link if I find it again, but for example the tariffs for lemons / oranges from non-EU countries are much higher when EU produce (e.g. from Spain) is ripe for picking (winter for lemons). Off-season (summer in the northern hemisphere) tariffs for non-EU countries are lower.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 08:16:47 AM
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO.

Unless, of course, the 'experts' are exaggerating or just plain wrong. If people don't trust them it might be their own fault, too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-real-reason-that-we-don-t-trust-experts-a7126536.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 08:34:44 AM
Unless, of course, the 'experts' are exaggerating or just plain wrong. If people don't trust them it might be their own fault, too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-real-reason-that-we-don-t-trust-experts-a7126536.html
But you are a firm advocate of deferring to expert opinion, at least in certain fields, are you not?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 08:56:32 AM

Just a general article on trading on WTO terms.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/brexit-wto-terms-rules-theresa-may-deal-eu-world-trade-organisation-peter-lilley-a8668311.html

And a link to a short and accessible booklet: What would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean?
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
You might be right, but I don't see how your second statement necessarily follows from the first one.

Aside from domestic consumption and exports of raw commodities, presumably some farmers sell raw ingredients (off the top of my head: the grains needed for Scotch whisky, for example) to UK manufacturers who then export the processed products.

I think it would be misleading to assume that those farmers (the raw ingredient suppliers to UK manufacturers) wouldn't be affected by a no-deal. IMO, they would be as tariffs for non-EU members on processed foods are generally considerably higher than for "raw" (fresh / frozen) produce.

Norway (non-EU, but with EFTA benefits) exports fresh salmon to Poland for processing. Lower wages are one factor but so is the export tariff which is lower (2% for fresh / frozen) versus 13% if it were to export the salmon already smoked. As an EU member, Poland can then export the smoked salmon to other EU countries tariff-free.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-norway-salmon/norway-satisfies-eu-smoked-salmon-appetite-through-polish-back-door-idUKKCN0WI1VH

There is also the issue of tariff quotas (higher tariffs for nationwide exports of whatever over a certain quota), plus seasonal tariffs on fresh produce. I'll add a link if I find it again, but for example the tariffs for lemons / oranges from non-EU countries are much higher when EU produce (e.g. from Spain) is ripe for picking (winter for lemons). Off-season (summer in the northern hemisphere) tariffs for non-EU countries are lower.

Whiskey is a good example as it makes up more than 20% of the UK's food and drink exports. 30% of the Scotch exported goes to the EU.

It's a bad exanple because in the event of a no deal Brexit Scotch Whiskey would not be subkect to EU tariffs under WTO rules.

It was once made with barley grown in Scotland, but due to the world wide demand for it the barley now comes from Englabd (Lincolnshire),Denmark or Germany.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-25863920
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-43009106
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 09:21:44 AM
But you are a firm advocate of deferring to expert opinion, at least in certain fields, are you not?

I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 09:59:40 AM
I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?

I don't have a problem with experts admitting that their views might not be accurate. I actually prefer that to those who claim to be certain.

A bit of the beast you know versus the one you don't, though.  If you jump off a cliff there is always the possibility that your clothes might snag on a tree and halt your fall into the abyss. But what are the advantages of jumping in the first place?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 10:53:23 AM
I don't have a problem with experts admitting that their views might not be accurate. I actually prefer that to those who claim to be certain.

A bit of the beast you know versus the one you don't, though.  If you jump off a cliff there is always the possibility that your clothes might snag on a tree and halt your fall into the abyss. But what are the advantages of jumping in the first place?

It seems a majority wanted to get away from the beast they knew regardless of the consequences. I can see both benefits and drawbacks with EU membership. Some may have voted leave for frivolous reasons, but the same could be said of remain voters.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 19, 2019, 11:46:16 AM
It seems a majority wanted to get away from the beast they knew regardless of the consequences. I can see both benefits and drawbacks with EU membership. Some may have voted leave for frivolous reasons, but the same could be said of remain voters.

I would say the vast majority of those who voted hadn't got a clue as to the benefits and drawbacks of membership
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
I would say the vast majority of those who voted hadn't got a clue as to the benefits and drawbacks of membership

Amongst the people I know who voted, Leavers certainly didn't. Despite the occasional gripe about bureaucracy and MEP salaries / fringe benefits, I can't think of anyone who didn't realise the main benefits. A few other people I know  didn't bother to vote, mainly because they didn't think it had the faintest chance of passing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 19, 2019, 04:16:35 PM
Amongst the people I know who voted, Leavers certainly didn't. Despite the occasional gripe about bureaucracy and MEP salaries / fringe benefits, I can't think of anyone who didn't realise the main benefits. A few other people I know  didn't bother to vote, mainly because they didn't think it had the faintest chance of passing.

People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 19, 2019, 05:15:06 PM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.

It's like a divorce.... It's going to be difficult at first but much better in the long run...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:45:39 PM
I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?
Because expert opinion is worth more than non expert opinion, or don’t you agree?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:49:07 PM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.
So the EU is just a mask for the German Superstate but all wealthy countries in Europe have been damaged by the EU... *%87. Can you please privide a cite for “most people want to get the hell out of the EU by March 29th at latest” please.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:50:54 PM
It's like a divorce.... It's going to be difficult at first but much better in the long run...
I can see the parallels but most divorces are painful and almost always leave both parties poorer than they would be if they stayed married, with no guarantees of future happiness.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 07:04:19 PM
Because expert opinion is worth more than non expert opinion, or don’t you agree?

Therefore 'expert' Mark Williams-Thomas's opinion that Madeleine McCann woke and wandered is worth more than the opinion of her parents that she was abducted from her bed.
 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 19, 2019, 07:05:22 PM
I can see the parallels but most divorces are painful and almost always leave both parties poorer than they would be if they stayed married, with no guarantees of future happiness.

 Nope ..divorces can be painful  but dont always leave both parties poorer in the long term...divorce is a good analogy...it takes courage to admit to change..The uk didnt commit to the euro...so was never really committed to europe....i think and hope we will be better outside europe
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 07:08:53 PM
Nope ..divorces can be painful  but dont always leave both parties poorer in the long term...divorce is a good analogy...it takes courage to admit to change..The uk didnt commit to the euro...so was never really committed to europe....i think and hope we will be better outside europe
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 08:43:55 PM
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next.

Can't you survive on the proceeds of your business?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 09:59:24 PM
Can't you survive on the proceeds of your business?
Depends.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 19, 2019, 10:58:06 PM
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next.

That would be your choice. You chose to separate (so you say) from your partner. It may actually  (if true) be the best thing you ever did.

How will you know....until you do it?

Your shop may actually make more money than you have expected if WTO terms are applied. Is your trade mainly with the USA - a better deal with them may make you more profitable.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 19, 2019, 11:55:57 PM
That would be your choice. You chose to separate (so you say) from your partner. It may actually  (if true) be the best thing you ever did.

How will you know....until you do it?

Your shop may actually make more money than you have expected if WTO terms are applied. Is your trade mainly with the USA - a better deal with them may make you more profitable.
What shop is that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 12:25:02 AM
Therefore 'expert' Mark Williams-Thomas's opinion that Madeleine McCann woke and wandered is worth more than the opinion of her parents that she was abducted from her bed.
If you gave birth to a child and lived with it for four years would you say a complete stranger was more of an expert about the child’s capabilities and likely behaviour than you were?  If you believe that is the case then by all means defer to the complete stranger.  IMO no one is more of an expert about their own child than its parents.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 06:51:18 AM
If you gave birth to a child and lived with it for four years would you say a complete stranger was more of an expert about the child’s capabilities and likely behaviour than you were?  If you believe that is the case then by all means defer to the complete stranger.  IMO no one is more of an expert about their own child than its parents.

So expert opinion isn't always of more value.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 08:32:09 AM
So expert opinion isn't always of more value.
The expert in your example was Kate McCann, so her opinion was of greater value, did you not understand my post?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 09:49:48 AM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do. The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.

What makes you think that remaining in the EU means being part of a "German Superstate"?

In order of the number of EP seats: the UK has the 3rd highest number of EP seats out of the 28 members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

Where does this idea of a "German Superstate" come from? The only media in which I've read that notion are far-right outlets...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:41:19 AM
The expert in your example was Kate McCann, so her opinion was of greater value, did you not understand my post?

We know that Madeleine was prone to waking.
We know that both parents first thoughts were that she had gone into their bedroom.
We know that Madeleine had run away earlier in the week.
We know that the parents left the door open so she could come and find them if she woke.

Then her mother says no way would she wander off. If there's one thing I know, it's that children constantly surprise their parents. Those who say 'not my child' are often proved wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 20, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
What makes you think that remaining in the EU means being part of a "German Superstate"?

In order of the number of EP seats: the UK has the 3rd highest number of EP seats out of the 28 members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

Where does this idea of a "German Superstate" come from? The only media in which I've read that notion are far-right outlets...

Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

I agree. There is reason to believe that the UK could end up as just one state in a Federal Europe. That may be acceptable or even attractive to some, but the people of the UK should be fully informed and should consent to it. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:50:19 AM
Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

Interestingly, Churchill advocated a form of Union of European States early back in 1946, so hardly a new idea.

I don't know where the idea of a European army is at. I can't see the point of it, unless it was to counteract Trump's threats to pull out of NATO or otherwise indulge in his usual unpredictable and erratic behaviour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 11:54:33 AM
We know that Madeleine was prone to waking.
We know that both parents first thoughts were that she had gone into their bedroom.
We know that Madeleine had run away earlier in the week.
We know that the parents left the door open so she could come and find them if she woke.

Then her mother says no way would she wander off. If there's one thing I know, it's that children constantly surprise their parents. Those who say 'not my child' are often proved wrong.
So is it your opinion that a complete stranger such as MWT would be more of an expert in the behaviour of your own children than you are?  Anyway, you seem to have done another volte-face and appear to be arguing once again that we should defer to the experts, most of whom say that a no deal Brexit will be extremely harmful to the economy and that those who will suffer the most are the poorest and most vulnerable in society. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 12:25:14 PM
Does anyone have the faintest idea what the plans are for the service sector (i.e. 80% of the UK economy)?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
So is it your opinion that a complete stranger such as MWT would be more of an expert in the behaviour of your own children than you are?  Anyway, you seem to have done another volte-face and appear to be arguing once again that we should defer to the experts, most of whom say that a no deal Brexit will be extremely harmful to the economy and that those who will suffer the most are the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

It's very kind of the experts to be concerned about the poor. The cynic in me wonders if they concerned about the economy and are using the poor to strengthen their argument.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 09:16:57 PM
It's very kind of the experts to be concerned about the poor. The cynic in me wonders if they concerned about the economy and are using the poor to strengthen their argument.
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:20:14 PM
Does anyone have the faintest idea what the plans are for the service sector (i.e. 80% of the UK economy)?

According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vasr majority of services are not traded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45707110
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.

Many things affect poverty. Austerity policies for exanple, which are based on ideology, not economics.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 10:00:41 PM
Many things affect poverty. Austerity policies for exanple, which are based on ideology, not economics.
Yes, and?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 10:53:48 PM
According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vasr majority of services are not traded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45707110


I wonder what this means: "Mr Hammond also justified the exclusion of services from Chequers by saying that it would not be a good idea to agree to adopt the EU's rule book in the service sector because "the rule book is evolving in a way that we can't predict and which could be disadvantageous to our businesses"."

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2019, 11:24:57 PM

I wonder what this means: "Mr Hammond also justified the exclusion of services from Chequers by saying that it would not be a good idea to agree to adopt the EU's rule book in the service sector because "the rule book is evolving in a way that we can't predict and which could be disadvantageous to our businesses"."

Put simply, the French and Germans want to get their hands on our banking, insurance and investment services.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:40:14 PM
Put simply, the French and Germans want to get their hands on our banking, insurance and investment services.

What makes you zoom in on the French and Germans? The world is watching this chaos.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2019, 11:42:20 PM
What makes you zoom in on the French and Germans? The world is watching this chaos.

They want to make Germany the centre of the financial world in Europe instead of London but BREXIT will kill off that particular notion for good.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:49:05 PM
A bit of bed-time reading



Guidance on how to prepare for Brexit if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

No, I haven't read it all either. Nor does it seem to be comprehensive.

Who is competent to renegotiate the 759 treaties? And when?

 After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
A bit of bed-time reading



Guidance on how to prepare for Brexit if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

No, I haven't read it all either. Nor does it seem to be comprehensive.

Who is competent to renegotiate the 759 treaties? And when?

 After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

It took 45 years to create this mess so it won't all be reversed overnight and that is why Theresa May's deal was a non starter. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 07:14:04 AM
They want to make Germany the centre of the financial world in Europe instead of London but BREXIT will kill off that particular notion for good.
Can you explain who “they” is, and how they plannrd to achieve this?  Why will BREXIT stop this from happening?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 07:45:37 AM
It took 45 years to create this mess so it won't all be reversed overnight and that is why Theresa May's deal was a non starter.

What "mess" was there before Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 08:16:18 AM
Can you explain who “they” is, and how they plannrd to achieve this?  Why will BREXIT stop this from happening?

I was wondering that as well...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 10:23:30 AM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 11:28:57 AM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report

Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 11:40:47 AM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

It does make you wonder if some remainers are following the practice of 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 02:25:28 PM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report

Hmm. This is the same Peter Lilley who thinks new negotiations can be settled in 10 minutes?
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/peter-lilley-interview-on-bbc-radio-4-today-programme-1-5786752

Thought so - he's one of the ERG lot
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/20/pms-defeatist-brexit-deal-based-on-lack-of-understanding

A lot of what he claims appears to be just plain wrong.
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/08/24/demolishing-peter-lilley-s-wto-brexit-nonsense


Don't have time to read all of the article you posted today, but even his first "truth" is bizarre:

"Lord Lilley’s 30 truths on leaving the EU under WTO terms are:

1: It will allow the UK to cash in, not crash out - the UK will not have to pay the £39billion divorce bill."


lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
And nor should we stump up £39 billion for the EU. Better spent on our own people and on repatriating illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 05:50:54 PM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.
Jingo!  Jingo-bop!! 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 05:56:59 PM
If trading under WTO rules is going to be so amazingly marvellous and bring us all untold riches and benefits why are so many MPs against it, from Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn (allegedly) down?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 06:00:55 PM
What does Peter Lilley suggest we do about this aspect of WTO rules?

“One suggestion has been that the UK scrap all tariffs and regulations for EU imports and continue to accept all products from the EU without checks. But, according to the WTO rules, the UK should extend this approach to products from all other WTO members (it has to treat everyone equally). Is the UK ready to allow all food products, tariff-free and without checks into the UK market? Not only would this be very damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would threaten food quality and safety standards”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 06:17:30 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)
I don’t really think it is, when you add up all the other options which don’t end in no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2019, 07:38:53 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)

The best argument against a second referendum is a 5 minute converation with teh average voter
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 10:52:15 PM
And nor should we stump up £39 billion for the EU. Better spent on our own people and on repatriating illegal immigrants.

That money happens to be what is owed for the current budget, projects that the UK has committed to, and MEPs pension funds.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 10:53:55 PM
I don’t really think it is, when you add up all the other options which don’t end in no deal.

I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 21, 2019, 11:23:54 PM
I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.
now that doesn’t surprise me.  I know it’s politically incorrect to say that a significant percentage of the population is ignorant and/or plain stupid but....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 22, 2019, 07:11:51 AM
I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.

Intrigued.  I have never heard of that.  I did look on google and there is a mention to a Sky News twitter poll but the link was removed from the reddit site as "misleading".

If you can find it Carana I would be interested to read it. Thanks
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 08:34:42 AM
Intrigued.  I have never heard of that.  I did look on google and there is a mention to a Sky News twitter poll but the link was removed from the reddit site as "misleading".

If you can find it Carana I would be interested to read it. Thanks

I didn't have time to verify it yesterday. Just had a look, yes, it seems to have been taken down from Reddit as "misleading".

This might be the origin - a Sky Twitter poll, in which case not quite of Gallup reliability.
https://twitter.com/lunaperla/status/1087550822005772288

On the other hand, several people promoting 2nd ref in their towns have said that they hadn't anticipated that numerous people they chatted to thought it meant remain. I'll post any clips if I find them.

I do remember that this issue  came up some time before Xmas, as there were several threads at the time re how important it would be to make the wording crystal clear if ever there was a new one.

I therefor have no idea whether 26% is representative or not, but I wouldn't find it unreasonable that some people who haven't followed the saga would think that: you agree to buy a house, then disccover the foundations are wobbly, so decide to pull out of the deal, i.e. the deal (leaving) doesn't go through,  therefore the prior status quo remains.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 08:44:58 AM
A Labour MP said that some voters (his constituents?) who he'd been in contact with were also under that impression.

https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1087282999899635713

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 09:17:02 AM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
What does Peter Lilley suggest we do about this aspect of WTO rules?

“One suggestion has been that the UK scrap all tariffs and regulations for EU imports and continue to accept all products from the EU without checks. But, according to the WTO rules, the UK should extend this approach to products from all other WTO members (it has to treat everyone equally). Is the UK ready to allow all food products, tariff-free and without checks into the UK market? Not only would this be very damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would threaten food quality and safety standards”.

An associated question is why he's glossing over what happens to exports. Can't think why...  *%87

In a default WTO no-deal scenario, AFAIK, the UK could decide to unilaterally scrap WTO tariffs on imports, and would have to extend that to all countries (the MFN principle), which is the point being made above, but WTO tariffs would still have to be applied to UK exports, thus making them uncompetitive.

To substantiate that, here's a Select Committe paper from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: 

Most Favoured Nation Principle

12.The WTO’s 164 country members must observe the “most favoured nation” (MFN) principle: this “non-discrimination principle” means the same tariffs must be applied to all countries. Lower-than-MFN tariffs may only be applied where a free trade agreement (FTA) or customs union (CU) agreement has been concluded with one or more trading partners, or when preferential treatment is given to developing countries.4

13.In this Chapter we examine the impact that tariffs could potentially have on different agri-food sectors.
Tariffs on UK-EU exports under WTO rules

14.Individual tariffs vary between different sectors and products. For non-agricultural goods, the average tariffs are relatively small. However, tariffs on agricultural goods are typically much higher, with the intention of protecting domestic markets.

15.The average EU tariff on dairy products is over 30%, while tariffs could be as high as 87% for frozen beef. Some other examples include a tariff of 46% for cheese or 21% for tomatoes. Some individual products have tariffs over 100%.5

16.Witnesses told us that tariff-free access to the EU was “crucial”.6 Tariffs would have a detrimental impact on those agricultural sectors that were dependent on EU exports for their profitability.

17.We heard particular concerns about the impact of tariffs on the sheep sector. The EU is very important for UK sheep meat exports, with more than 95% of its export volume destined for the EU. The Welsh lamb market is very dependent on the EU market, with 92% of exports (by value) and 85% (by volume) destined for the EU.7

18.Sheep exports, with a tariff of at least 50%, would become uncompetitive on the EU market.8 The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) told us that this would have a “devastating” effect on the sector.9 The Andersons Centre estimated that in Northern Ireland alone, exports to the EU would drop by about 90%.10 It would have serious consequences in Wales, where sheep farming was such a vital part of the Welsh economy, with producer prices estimated to decrease by 30%.11

19.The EU market is also important to the beef market, with more than 90% of UK beef exports shipped to other EU countries in 2015/16.12

20.In addition to their raw value, exports are important in the meat sector in helping to secure value for the whole carcass, finding markets for parts of the animal that are less favourable in the domestic market. In the UK, consumers prefer to eat chicken breast, lamb legs, mince, beef steaks, pork chops. There is little or no domestic market for dark chicken meat, chicken necks, chicken feet, sow meat and pigs trotters, for example.13 Exporting these allow producers to maximise their return.

21.The EU is also a key market for an “export-focused and orientated” dairy market.14 Currently, 15% of current output in the sector is exported, with 85% to 90% going to mainland Europe.15 In Northern Ireland, the situation is exacerbated by the fact that, unlike other regions of the UK, it exports between 70%–85% of its milk product, mostly as milk powders, and does not have a reliance on the liquid milk market.

22.AHDB noted that the introduction of tariffs would prevent most imports of dairy products into the EU.16 Dairy UK stated:

If you take cheese as an example, WTO tariffs on dairy will do what they are designed to do: they will stop trade. The WTO tariff on cheese is of the order of 40% to 50% depending on the cheese variety. We do not make 50% margins in this sector, so the ability to absorb is minimal, if not non-existent.17

23.In the cereals sector, wheat and barley exports would be most affected. Approximately 80% of exports go to EU markets.18 AHDB told us that cereals would find it difficult to compete in the EU market with other third country wheat producers, such as Russia, Ukraine, the US or South America: “They not only have been exporting effectively for a very long time, but they do it in volumes we cannot imagine”.19

24.An exception to the general concern was fruit and vegetables. Exports are minimal, with most trade focused on the domestic market.20

25.George Eustice MP, Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Defra, recognised that the lamb industry and cereals industry would be affected by tariffs on exports.21

26.During our evidence session with Rt. Hon. Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State, and the Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, we were surprised to hear that Defra had not completed work on sector by sector analysis.22 More surprising was the admission that this work may not be completed before the publication of the Agriculture Bill. Although DexEU had produced Brexit impact assessments and made them available for Members to view, we were not impressed with the depth of analysis in the documents.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmenvfru/348/34805.htm
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:36:33 AM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.

A few in the medical community have voiced the argument of "informed consent".

As a doctor and an MP, I believe we need informed consent from the British public on Brexit – that's why I'm backing a Final Say

If a patient decides, on the advice of their doctor, to undergo an operation but subsequent tests show the patient could avoid surgery, would the surgeon be right to say: ‘Sorry – you’ve agreed to me cutting into your heart and I’m jolly well going to do it’?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-final-say-second-referendum-theresa-may-no-deal-eu-negotiations-a8627621.html

NB: A concern of mine is whether people are now so polarised that cofirmation bias would take over.
I've no idea what the solution to that would be.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:56:24 AM
1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?

I must have missed this from Alice. LOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 11:01:29 AM
According to this Sky article, there isn't a majority for a 2nd ref.
https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019

But that was on Sunday and doesn't appear to be the Twitter one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:34:28 PM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

I've really no idea where you get that idea from, Angelo.

A large part of the concept of Europe was precisely to promote peace and prevent another extremist imposing power... and that goes back to Churchill.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:40:29 PM
26% appears to be an exaggeration - although it's still not clear where the polls originate nor how representative the results are.


    Only around 4% of people think a no-deal Brexit would involve the UK remaining in the EU, the research finds. Ford and Wager explain:

It is worth starting with what the public very clearly knows to be true. Despite claims to the contary, there is no polling evidence to suggest that any significant section of the population think a no deal Brexit would mean that the UK would remain in the EU. Just 4% think that no deal means a reversion to the status quo ante. Only 8% think that ‘nothing important would really change’ if the UK left the EU without a deal. While leave voters are three times more likely to think this – 12% versus 4% – the idea that no deal would not be an event with consequences, for good or bad, is not widely held.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:45:54 PM
No time now, but this ccould be an interesting read

 2h ago 10:52
Identification with remain/leave much stronger than identification with a political party, research finds

If you are interested in Brexit, there is a huge amount of quite interesting analysis in the Brexit and Public Opinion 2019 report (pdf) out today from the UK in a Changing Europe project. It contains 22 short essays by academics and other experts.

One, by Geoff Evans and Florian Schaffner, says that whereas in the past people used to identify themselves politically according to the party they supported, now they are far more likely to identify themselves by where they stand on Brexit. Here is an extract.

    The number of both remainers and leavers expressing a Brexit identity grew markedly following the referendum result. After then it has been almost neck-and-neck, with just under 50% identifying with each side but with a slight lead for remain.

    Tellingly, even in mid-2018, two years after the referendum, only just over 6% of people did not identify with either leave or remain.

    Compare this with party attachment. The percentage with no party identity increased from 18% to 21.5% over same period – in part due to the decline of UKIP. Only one in 16 people don’t have a Brexit identity whereas more than one in five have no party identity ...

    The EU referendum seems to have resulted in a classic in-group versus out-group response, especially from remainers. The social and emotional intensity of these Brexit identities – held by almost everybody – is far higher than those for parties. The latter increased a little during the 2017 general election, especially for Labour, but then subsided. A Brexit identity remained prevalent and consequential even two years after the referendum itself. We are a long way removed from the idea that Britain ‘has come together’ to face the challenge of Brexit. Social polarisation is pronounced and shows no sign of diminishing.

This has big consequences for party politics. In a recent speech in Wakefield Jeremy Corbyn argued that “the real divide in our country is not between those who voted to remain in the EU and those who voted to leave” but between the many and the few. He may well be right, but this research suggests that that is not the way people feel at the moment.

From here

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live

with link to

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Public-Opinion-2019-report.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 22, 2019, 02:19:27 PM
According to this Sky article, there isn't a majority for a 2nd ref.
https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019

But that was on Sunday and doesn't appear to be the Twitter one.

Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?

Parliament has lost all credibility now in my view and will find it difficult to get it back.  The problem as we all know is that MPs and the electorate are promoting different things. The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal nor did they vote for Brexit to be subject to conditions. Many MPs on the other hand are defying their electorate and attempting to thwart Brexit and keep the UK in the EU.

IMO the best and indeed only way forward is to exit the EU by default on the 29th March 2019 and thereafter start the negotiations.  Nothing will change on the ground from that date as a suitable implementation period will exist as it benefits both the UK and the EU to have one.  We could also save the country £39 billion which would be better spent at home rather than propping up some defunct eastern European basketcase.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 04:12:38 PM
Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?

Parliament has lost all credibility now in my view and will find it difficult to get it back.  The problem as we all know is that MPs and the electorate are promoting different things. The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal nor did they vote for Brexit to be subject to conditions. Many MPs on the other hand are defying their electorate and attempting to thwart Brexit and keep the UK in the EU.

IMO the best and indeed only way forward is to exit the EU by default on the 29th March 2019 and thereafter start the negotiations.  Nothing will change on the ground from that date as a suitable implementation period will exist as it benefits both the UK and the EU to have one.  We could also save the country £39 billion which would be better spent at home rather than propping up some defunct eastern European basketcase.

"The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal" - seriously?

Are you sure of that amidst all the assurances at the time that life would go on pretty much as before? (CF "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", etc? It hasn't turned out that way, has it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 04:48:56 PM

Brexit backer Dyson moves head office to Singapore

16:43, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700

Who would have thunk that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Brexit backer Dyson moves head office to Singapore

16:43, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700 (https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700)

Who would have thunk that?

Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 05:30:52 PM
Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.

Is the lack of  UK graduate engineers / industrial designers due to the EU, do  you think? If so, how?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 05:46:42 PM
Is the lack of  UK graduate engineers / industrial designers due to the EU, do  you think? If so, how?
You were suggesting or implying by a cite to a news report that Dyson's HQ move was triggered by Brexit, when quite clearly it has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:03:37 PM
No-deal Brexit would mean hard Irish border, EU confirms

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

Last-minute bluff or a serious potential outcome?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:05:11 PM
No matter where the Dyson HQ and manufacturing facilities are located the EU will still buy his cleaning products.  Even the Germans favour them over their own...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11331231/Germanys-leading-vacuum-brand-is-made-in-the-UK.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11331231/Germanys-leading-vacuum-brand-is-made-in-the-UK.html)

Another reason why Dyson favoured exiting the EU...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11075490/James-Dyson-suggests-leaving-the-EU-over-vacuum-cleaners.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11075490/James-Dyson-suggests-leaving-the-EU-over-vacuum-cleaners.html)

and others...

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-22/brexit-backer-james-dyson-ditches-britain-for-singapore-with-hq-move/ (https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-22/brexit-backer-james-dyson-ditches-britain-for-singapore-with-hq-move/)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:11:08 PM
You were suggesting or implying by a cite to a news report that Dyson's HQ move was triggered by Brexit, when quite clearly it has nothing to do with it.
It’s not very patriotic of him, is it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:11:44 PM
Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.

I know that most of his manufacturing takes place in Malaysia. He's moving his HQ to Singapore.

What will be left in the UK?

Most of its products are designed in the UK, but manufactured in Asia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093

I wonder how UK designing, presumably part of the service sector, will work post-Brexit?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:24:26 PM
I know that most of his manufacturing takes place in Malaysia. He's moving his HQ to Singapore.

What will be left in the UK?

Most of its products are designed in the UK, but manufactured in Asia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093)

I wonder how UK designing, presumably part of the service sector, will work post-Brexit?
It seems he isn't abandoning Britain entirely, intellectually that is...  https://www.dysoncentre.eng.cam.ac.uk/ (https://www.dysoncentre.eng.cam.ac.uk/)

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10963085.wiltshire-set-to-be-a-dyson-centre-of-excellence/ (https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10963085.wiltshire-set-to-be-a-dyson-centre-of-excellence/)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:30:29 PM
It’s not very patriotic of him, is it?
Cheaper manufacturing and transport costs to nearby Asian markets, especially China, are other reasons no doubt.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:34:02 PM
Cheaper manufacturing and transport costs to nearby Asian markets, especially China, are other reasons no doubt.
That doesn’t explain why the Head Office needs to be located there.  Is he moving out there himself, to live?   Where will he be paying his taxes?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:36:10 PM
P&O post-Brexit plan to register Channel fleet in Cyprus

The company said the move to re-register the entire English Channel fleet within the EU will lead to fewer inspections and delays.

16:32, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019


https://news.sky.com/story/po-post-brexit-plan-to-register-channel-fleet-in-cyprus-11614554
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Dyson says the move is about “future proofing” his business, what does that mean?  Doesn’t he predict much of a future in his own country?  Shocking timing if you ask me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:54:34 PM
Dyson says the move is about “future proofing” his business, what does that mean?  Doesn’t he predict much of a future in his own country?  Shocking timing if you ask me.

Jacob Rees-Mogg recently set up his second investment fund in Dublin, but insists it has nothing to do with Brexit, although, according to this article:  "The business, which invests millions into emerging and frontier markets, also issued a stark warning over Brexit earlier this year, suggesting there was the likelihood to be “considerable uncertainty” as Britain leaves the bloc."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-scm-ireland-investment-fund-conservative-mp-a8461021.html

And Lord Lawson (a leading Brexiteer whom I'd never heard of) has apparently applied for French residency.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44313941

Hmm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 22, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.

They are entitled to a vote but it was Churchill who said the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter ..
I don't think whetherbwe should stay in Europe should be decided by those who on the whole... Don't have a clue
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 07:22:15 PM
That doesn’t explain why the Head Office needs to be located there.  Is he moving out there himself, to live?   Where will he be paying his taxes?
With such vast wealth he can live anywhere in the world he wishes, jetting frequently between various abodes when required, including Dodington Park, a French chateau vineyard and a Chelsea townhouse.  And now maybe "above the shop" in Singapore. To think that Hoover and Electrolux cocked a snook at his cyclone invention in the early days and now he's having the last laugh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html)

Taxes paid here it's claimed, although the reality might be somewhat different. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:29:56 PM
now that doesn’t surprise me.  I know it’s politically incorrect to say that a significant percentage of the population is ignorant and/or plain stupid but....


You could maybe quantify the significant part.  do we know how many are the 100% polled- to get the 25% just a quarter.  where did they come from /back grounds etc-let us think this through.

I told a group of people that 75% of those polled agreed that all  jews  should be dead.. shocked they were...absolutely horrified.

well untill I informed them I polled three people two were nazi fascist and one was jewish... oh how we can make the figures say what we want them to say.. So let us have your actual figures of your assertion that  voters  in your worthless opinion about people you do not know, are ignorant/ stupid?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:37:52 PM
P&O post-Brexit plan to register Channel fleet in Cyprus

The company said the move to re-register the entire English Channel fleet within the EU will lead to fewer inspections and delays.

16:32, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019


https://news.sky.com/story/po-post-brexit-plan-to-register-channel-fleet-in-cyprus-11614554


Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. fewer inspections eh  ok so nothing to hide darlings.

You see, this is the problem when companies run off into the sunset in a huff, others see an opportunity to move in. It really doesn't pay in the long run. 

bye bye over priced 'luxury'
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:42:31 PM
Jacob Rees-Mogg recently set up his second investment fund in Dublin, but insists it has nothing to do with Brexit, although, according to this article:  "The business, which invests millions into emerging and frontier markets, also issued a stark warning over Brexit earlier this year, suggesting there was the likelihood to be “considerable uncertainty” as Britain leaves the bloc."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-scm-ireland-investment-fund-conservative-mp-a8461021.html

And Lord Lawson (a leading Brexiteer whom I'd never heard of) has apparently applied for French residency.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44313941

Hmm.

Are  we politially point scoring? well OK lets talk Phony Tony. He  registers his children as Irish citizens just before he declares  WAR on Iraq Slautering tens of thousands and many other peoples  children! Well we can't have his little darlings getting called up now can we?  And what about all the labour,MPs, lords, supporters money the celebrities who back remain where is their money?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:56:06 PM
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.


What we need to establish is how do we define 'poor'? The poor need rich people to provide for them do they not?
****************************************************************************************

Re: the claims about what Churchill  wanted. It is the voters who say what they want not the policticians, even though this seems not to be the case in many instances. I do not believe he wanted a unified EU which included Turkey.

The EU is undemocratic and costly- they refused to change -  so we hopped out. I do believe many more will follow.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:02:30 PM

You could maybe quantify the significant part.  do we know how many are the 100% polled- to get the 25% just a quarter.  where did they come from /back grounds etc-let us think this through.

I told a group of people that 75% of those polled agreed that all  jews  should be dead.. shocked they were...absolutely horrified.

well untill I informed them I polled three people two were nazi fascist and one was jewish... oh how we can make the figures say what we want them to say.. So let us have your actual figures of your assertion that  voters  in your worthless opinion about people you do not know, are ignorant/ stupid?
*sigh*.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:05:21 PM

What we need to establish is how do we define 'poor'? The poor need rich people to provide for them do they not?
****************************************************************************************

Re: the claims about what Churchill  wanted. It is the voters who say what they want not the policticians, even though this seems not to be the case in many instances. I do not believe he wanted a unified EU which included Turkey.

The EU is undemocratic and costly- they refused to change -  so we hopped out. I do believe many more will follow.
One thing that Brexit has achieved is to unify Europe - they’ve all seen the absolute turmoil we’ve been through in the last two years and I don’t think any EU country is eager to follow suit in the near future.  IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:17:15 PM
One thing that Brexit has achieved is to unify Europe - they’ve all seen the absolute turmoil we’ve been through in the last two years and I don’t think any EU country is eager to follow suit in the near future.  IMO.

I won't hold my breath. Italy and some eastern countries are certainly don't like the way the land lays.

The main issue I have with the EU  and its non democratic mind set is: when the population are being shafted and ignored  they feel undermined, lost, aggireved and this opens the door to fascism.

 How do you think we got  a rise in right wing parties getting a platform. Not beause the new voters love fascists, but it was the only way they could let the  great and good see the mess they created for the rest of us to live in.

We now have 'hate crime'  why do you think we have these laws?  to shut us up and continue with the social engineering? well maybe ., but I think it is more to do with nolt dealing with the issues of injustice with regards to housing and benefits being abused by many thousands of undeserving illegal immigrants(who, when caught- claim asylum)- not genuine asylum seekers or people applying for work permits/residency.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 08:20:23 PM
They are entitled to a vote but it was Churchill who said the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter ..
I don't think whetherbwe should stay in Europe should be decided by those who on the whole... Don't have a clue

It must be galling to have to rely on the voters to keep you in your job, mustn't it? Politucal power is bestowed or withheld by the electorate, whether politicians like it or not.

I take it you think you're one of those who do have a clue?


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:21:16 PM
I won't hold my breath. Italy and some eastern countries are certainly don't like the way the land lays.

The main issue I have with the EU  and its non democratic mind set is: when the population are being shafted and ignored  they feel undermined, lost, aggireved and this opens the door to fascism.

 How do you think we got  a rise in right wing parties getting a platform. Not beause the new voters love fascists, but it was the only way they could let the  great and good see the mess they created for the rest of us to live in.

We now have 'hate crime'  why do you think we have these laws?  to shut us up and continue with the social engineering? well maybe ., but I think it is more to do with nolt dealing with the issues of injustice with regards to housing and benefits being abused by many thousands of undeserving illegal immigrants(who, when caught- claim asylum)- not genuine asylum seekers or people applying for work permits/residency.
Illegal immigrants by their very definition are not from the EU and therefore nothing to do with our EU membership, nor either is our current benefits system.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 22, 2019, 08:25:04 PM
It must be galling to have to rely on the voters to keep you in your job, mustn't it? Politucal power is bestowed or withheld by the electorate, whether politicians like it or not.

I take it you think you're one of those who do have a clue?

You will be very surprised to hear I dint have enough knowledge to make an informed choice... I probably have more than average... But that isn't enough.. We probably needed some real public debate by experts to educate us ..
It does appear that only poorer countries wish to join..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:29:14 PM
Illegal immigrants by their very definition are not from the EU and therefore nothing to do with our EU membership, nor either is our current benefits system.

Oh Dear... you really have no clue. or you are pretending not to hear. ok fair enough.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:53:35 PM
Oh Dear... you really have no clue. or you are pretending not to hear. ok fair enough.
Pardon??  How is leaving the EU going to solve the illegal immigrant problem?  How is our current benefits system controlled by thr EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 10:20:19 PM
You will be very surprised to hear I dint have enough knowledge to make an informed choice... I probably have more than average... But that isn't enough.. We probably needed some real public debate by experts to educate us ..
It does appear that only poorer countries wish to join..

I'm not surprised to hear that you don't have enough knowledge, but I'm surprised to see you admitting it.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 23, 2019, 07:50:32 AM
I'm not surprised to hear that you don't have enough knowledge, but I'm surprised to see you admitting it.  @)(++(*

That's an admission from you that you have misjudged me... It's not the absence of knowledge that's the problem but the presumption of knowledge from people such as you.... I doubt there is anyone on this forum that has the knowledge to make an informed decision

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 07:58:12 AM
With such vast wealth he can live anywhere in the world he wishes, jetting frequently between various abodes when required, including Dodington Park, a French chateau vineyard and a Chelsea townhouse.  And now maybe "above the shop" in Singapore. To think that Hoover and Electrolux cocked a snook at his cyclone invention in the early days and now he's having the last laugh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html)

Taxes paid here it's claimed, although the reality might be somewhat different.
According to today’s Times, the company’s relocation to Singapore will cost the UK £60m in tax receipts. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 08:27:10 AM
As the Daily Mail comments are sometimes used in this forum as a barometer of public opinion, it might be instructive to post the most popular comment under theDyson news which received nearly 5000 green arrows versus a paltry 500 red:

“Dyson that moved manufacturing to Asia , decided that Singapore was the best place to build his cars and now moving his Head Office there as well , another Brexiteer that wants cheap labour without import tariffs on his goods . Brexit was always about the elite and not about the working people of Britain and the sooner people wake up the better for British manufacturing , services and workers” .

I don’t think this news has gone down very well with the GBP. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:41:39 AM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 08:59:28 AM
In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?
I’d like to know that too.  27 need 1 more than 1 needs 27 does not somewhow make sense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 23, 2019, 09:24:33 AM
In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?

I don't think it's that simple... We are net contributers and net importers... Norway, Canada. Switzerland don't need them and to me it seems only poorer countries want to join
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 09:26:33 AM

But what does he know...

“The country’s most senior counterterrorism officer has said that he finds the prospect of Britain leaving the EU without a deal “incredibly concerning”.

Neil Basu warned that a no-deal Brexit would leave the UK and Europe in a “very bad place” if police could not share data and intelligence on suspected criminals and terrorists.”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 10:01:51 AM
That's an admission from you that you have misjudged me... It's not the absence of knowledge that's the problem but the presumption of knowledge from people such as you.... I doubt there is anyone on this forum that has the knowledge to make an informed decision

I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 10:07:54 AM
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
Isn't that precisely what Theresa May has been doing for the last two years? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 23, 2019, 10:13:55 AM
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.

I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 11:05:54 AM
I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem

I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:13:20 AM
I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.

Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay. 

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:10:24 PM
Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay.
I don't require you to comment on it, I'm simply telling you the way the discussion went - you of course are perfectly entitled to think I am making it all up, but I'm not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:12:55 PM
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the bloody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:15:33 PM
And from the same article:

when asked whether “the unravelling of the peace process in Northern Ireland” is a “price worth paying” for Brexit that allows them to “take back control”, fully 83% of leave voters and 73% of Conservative voters agree that it is. This is not, surely, mere mindless cruelty – it expresses a deep belief that Northern Ireland is not “us”, that what happens “over there” is not our responsibility.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
2Sony confirmed it is moving its European headquarters from London to Amsterdam.

The chief executive of the luxury carmaker Bentley said the company was stockpiling parts, describing Brexit as a “killer” threatening his firm’s profitability."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 01:27:53 PM
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the blwonderoody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland

I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:34:44 PM
“CME Group Inc. will move its foreign-exchange forwards and swaps venue, which has trading volumes of about $15 billion a day, from London to Amsterdam, while Cboe Global Markets Inc. will shift most European equities trading to its market in the Dutch capital after Brexit.”. The latest moves follow CME’s decision last year to move its 200 billion-euro-a-day ($227 billion) short-term financing market to Amsterdam.

Its London business will continue to oversee just 3 billion euros of daily Swiss and U.K. stock trades. Transaction fees that currently generate tax revenue for the U.K. Treasury will in future go to the Dutch authorities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:37:48 PM
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
Globalists like Dyson are in the fortunate position to be able to exploit workers abroad and take advantage of tax loopholes and lower rates elsewhere to maximise profits and to forge new markets wherever the fancy takes them - he's all for that type of globalisation.  As Singapore has just signed a free trade agreement with the EU he really has got it made.  Savvy chappy, but he's really pissed off a few people with this announcement.  Not that he will care, unless a threatened boycott of his products takes hold, which is unlikely as people in this country are not very good at putting their money where their mouth is, IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 02:47:46 PM
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity.

It was a UK vote, not a Northern Irish or Scottish vote, so that's immaterial.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
It was a UK vote, not a Northern Irish or Scottish vote, so that's immaterial.
Try telling that to the Irish or the Scots.   Won't it be hugely ironic if a UK vote for independence results in the destruction of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Try telling that to the Irish or the Scots.   Won't it be hugely ironic if a UK vote for independence results in the destruction of the UK.

Perhaps Cornwall will leave the UK if we don't leave the EU, rather than be kept in against it's will. Who knows.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 06:44:39 PM
Perhaps Cornwall will leave the UK if we don't leave the EU, rather than be kept in against it's will. Who knows.
@)(++(*  I really don't think so, unless the Cornish are all stark staring bonkers.  Of course, we could take this to the nth degree and split the country by county into lots of little countries, or even by town.  I mean why should the people of Wakefield be controlled by a bunch of people in Parliament they never voted for and who force them to abide by the same rules and regulations as the people of London?  Independence for Wakefield from the tyranny of the unelected British bureaucrats!!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 06:48:36 PM
Anyway, if Cornwall left the Union then we would at least retain the Union Jack so no biggie.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 07:26:41 PM
Anyway, if Cornwall left the Union then we would at least retain the Union Jack so no biggie.


Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:11:21 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

I can understand that. Many in Scotland must feel aggrieved at having voted 62% (or whatever it was) to stay and being forced to go with the global vote, plus  the fact that ROI might well get a better overall deal. Such a shame, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:17:44 PM
Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and the cultural and ethnic origin of the Cornish diaspora. It retains a distinct cultural identity that reflects its unique history, and is recognised as one of the Celtic nations with a rich cultural heritage.[7] It was formerly a Brythonic kingdom and subsequently a royal duchy. The Cornish nationalist movement contests the present constitutional status of Cornwall and seeks greater autonomy within the United Kingdom in the form of a devolved legislative Cornish Assembly with powers similar to those in Wales and Scotland.[8][9] In 2014, Cornish people were granted minority status under the European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities,[10] giving them recognition as a distinct ethnic group.[11][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
@)(++(*  I really don't think so, unless the Cornish are all stark staring bonkers.  Of course, we could take this to the nth degree and split the country by county into lots of little countries, or even by town.  I mean why should the people of Wakefield be controlled by a bunch of people in Parliament they never voted for and who force them to abide by the same rules and regulations as the people of London?  Independence for Wakefield from the tyranny of the unelected British bureaucrats!!!

Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 09:05:11 PM
Michel Barnier says opposing no-deal Brexit will not stop it in March

EU’s chief negotiator warns UK will crash out unless ‘positive majority’ of MPs agree on new vision

Barnier said that extending the two years of the negotiating period beyond 29 March should not be the primary focus for the UK parliament.

“We need decisions more than we need time actually”, he said. “I don’t know whether postponing or extending will be raised but its the head of state and government that will have to answer that question by consensus. Some have said to me that if the question is raised, then why would we do that? What would the purpose be? How long would be required?”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/23/michel-barnier-warns-against-time-limited-irish-backstop
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 09:08:07 PM
Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.

What I find irritating is that the referendum was advisory. If the government had felt obliged to send a leaflet, they  could have simply said that it was important to have input and it would be given serious consideration, bla, bla. Even better, they should have done their  homework before unleashing this mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 09:14:51 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.


And your post defines exactly the reasons why there is a growing desire for independence, especially with the younger generations.
They see the futility of voting when their vote  is pointless.

It may not be in my lifetime but I believe my grandchildren will live in an independent Scotland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 09:31:04 PM
Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.
Retreating into their own little corner is precisely what the GBP voted for, just.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 10:24:37 PM
Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.


And your post defines exactly the reasons why there is a growing desire for independence, especially with the younger generations.
They see the futility of voting when their vote  is pointless.

It may not be in my lifetime but I believe my grandchildren will live in an independent Scotland.

Imagine how it feels when you vote for something, win, and then the politicians refuse to accept the result! It's quite normal in a first past the post democracy for people's votes to be pointless. Think about Labour voters in a safe Tory seat and vice versa.

It would be interesting to see how an independant Scotland would get on. Organising it's own affairs might be harder than it thinks. I lived in the Western Isles and their contempt for Westminster was clear but so was their lack of fellow feeling for the Lowlanders. The Gaelic term for the Lowlands is a' Ghalldachd, "the place of the foreigner".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:40:24 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

I think we should cut Scotland loose and see how long it takes them to mess up.  When they eventually wake up and realise that they will need a visa to work in England it will be too late. 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:42:59 PM
I can understand that. Many in Scotland must feel aggrieved at having voted 62% (or whatever it was) to stay and being forced to go with the global vote, plus  the fact that ROI might well get a better overall deal. Such a shame, IMO.

The Scottish independence referendum and the EU withdrawal vote in Scotland had almost identical results. 1.6 million voted for Independence and 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. You could say this represents the SNP vote in Scotland.

Since the electorate in Scotland is around 4 million then clearly only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for the majority in Scotland despite holding power at Holyrood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 10:48:35 PM
Imagine how it feels for a nation to vote and to know that their vote is pointless.
If every voter in Scotland vote Labour but the voters of England vote Conservative, then we are ruled by a Conservative gornment.
And of course the same would apply if every voter in Scotland voted Conservative but the voters in England voted in Labour.

Can you not appreciate the difference in a nation having to accept that which they did not vote for.
Not quite the same as individual voters in a constituency.

Many Brexiteers have voiced that there will be difficulties in leaving the EU but are willing to accept this in order to leave the EU.
Many here appreciate that there would be difficulties when leaving the the UK union but are willing to accept those to become an independent nation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 10:55:08 PM
Only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less to vote anyway.


38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:57:42 PM

38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

See my post above.  Those percentages only reflect actual votes and not the total electorate.  The electorate in Scotland is 4 million. Only 1.6 million voted for Independence and to remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 23, 2019, 11:00:26 PM

38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

I don't know the figures but looking at the electorate total and how many actually voted it think Angelo is correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:02:04 PM



Imagine how it feels for a nation to vote and to know that their vote is pointless.
If every voter in Scotland vote Labour but the voters of England vote Conservative, then we are ruled by a Conservative gornment.
And of course the same would apply if every voter in Scotland voted Conservative but the voters in England voted in Labour.

Can you not appreciate the difference in a nation having to accept that which they did not vote for.
Not quite the same as individual voters in a constituency.

Many Brexiteers have voiced that there will be difficulties in leaving the EU but are willing to accept this in order to leave the EU.
Many here appreciate that there would be difficulties when leaving the the UK union but are willing to accept those to become an independent nation.

The far-right and those pulling the strings may have won, if the long-term game was to break up the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:06:17 PM
The Scottish independence referendum and the EU withdrawal vote in Scotland had almost identical results. 1.6 million voted for Independence and 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. You could say this represents the SNP vote in Scotland.

Since the electorate in Scotland is around 4 million then clearly only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for the majority in Scotland despite holding power at Holyrood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland
We can all play that game.  Only 38% of the English electorate voted to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:06:26 PM
I don't know the figures but looking at the electorate total and how many actually voted it think Angelo is correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland

Thanks  for the link, Sunny, but I'm still seeing the same result for Scotland. The only thing is that there was only a 67.25% turnout, which is less than for the UK as a whole.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 11:06:57 PM
If Sturgeon isn't careful she will end up another has-been just like Salmond.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:09:17 PM
See my post above.  Those percentages only reflect actual votes and not the total electorate.  The electorate in Scotland is 4 million. Only 1.6 million voted for Independence and to remain in the EU.


Ah.  Ok. If we exclude those who didn't vote, then Stephen was correct: only 37% of the UK electorate voted for Brexit. Plus whattever the percentage may have been of the 1 million + disenfranchised non-UK resident "expats".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:09:25 PM
If Sturgeon isn't careful she will end up another has-been just like Salmond.
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:10:41 PM
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.

They are free to spout nonsense, then disappear when push comes to shove....

Or make noises about  starting a new party with a single purpose... lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 11:11:32 PM
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*  8((()*/

Do you think Teflon Theresa will be the exception?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*  8((()*/

Do you think Teflon Theresa will be the exception?
Ermm..she’s already a hasbeen and has been since the last election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 12:09:50 AM

Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 01:33:44 AM
Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?
[Snip.]

Perhaps because the basis for the first one was unworkable?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 24, 2019, 06:26:56 AM
Perhaps because the basis for the first one was unworkable?

We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 07:16:17 AM
We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.
There were a succession of Brexit ministers who were all Leavers, did any of them come up with anything resembling a better deal?  What IS a better deal?  One in which the EU agrees to everything we want?  Well that’s not going to happen, and never was.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 07:22:49 AM
This morning the chief executive of Airbus said the company would be forced to make “potentially very harmful decisions for the UK” in the event of a no deal Brexit. In a video statement Tom Enders said: “Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong.”

In June Airbus said that it could leave Britain altogether if the country left the EU’s single market and customs union without a transition deal. The aerospace firm employs 14,000 people at 25 sites in Britain.

from today’s Times.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 08:03:09 AM
Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?

The UK has voted for what it wants and it voted to leave the EU. It's the politicians who seem unable or unwilling to accept that fact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
The UK has voted for what it wants and it voted to leave the EU. It's the politicians who seem unable or unwilling to accept that fact.
Did the UK vote for a hard brexit or a soft brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 24, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
I have to say that now I have got over the shock and horror of what British MPs have descended into, it is much more fun watching it all from this side of The Channel.

I really wanted Brexit for the sake of Britain, no matter how it might affect me.  I have lived with a weak Pound for more than ten years now, and the effect it has had on my British State Pension, which hasn't been funny.  But a persistently weak Pound tells me what the rest of the World thinks of Britain.  And now the politicians are proving it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 10:35:04 AM
We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.

The problem for me is that so far none of the Brexiteer politicians seem to have a clue what they're talking about, despite their sweeping statements made with an authoritative voice.

There are former WTO negotiators who've taken to Twitter who're banging their heads at some of the things the politicians come out with.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:20:11 AM
Did the UK vote for a hard brexit or a soft brexit?

If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 11:27:11 AM
If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Have you started posting on a phone...as your typos are getting almost as bad as mine.....i don't have a problem with them but it seems some on here do
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:27:22 AM
Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?

The people of the UK decided what they wanted in 2016, it is the MPs who are messing it up in order to suit their own agendas.

Feeding out of the self-interest trough. LABOUR shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has pocketed £125,000 from one of the law firms that derailed Brexit – including £25,000 since he became MP.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2125612/labour-shadow-brexit-secretary-keir-starmer-pockets-125000-from-law-firm-derailing-britains-eu-exit/amp/#click=https://t.co/YKxayb6fZz
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:28:20 AM
I have to say that now I have got over the shock and horror of what British MPs have descended into, it is much more fun watching it all from this side of The Channel.

I really wanted Brexit for the sake of Britain, no matter how it might affect me.  I have lived with a weak Pound for more than ten years now, and the effect it has had on my British State Pension, which hasn't been funny.  But a persistently weak Pound tells me what the rest of the World thinks of Britain.  And now the politicians are proving it.

It's quite fun waching it from here too. The more they try to convince people that they know what they're doing the more obvious it becomes that they don't.  They are damaging themselves, our country, and our political system more and more every day. I wouldn't actually blame Theresa May if she closed Parliament and taught them all a lesson.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 11:28:39 AM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
It's quite fun waching it from here too. The more they try to convince people that they know what they're doing the more obvious it becomes that they don't.  They are damaging themselves, our country, and our political system more and more every day. I wouldn't actually blame Theresa May if she closed Parliament and taught them all a lesson.

The worrying thing is ...are those running teh EU....and controlling our future....any better....I dont think they are
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:32:45 AM
Have you started poting on a phone...as your typos are getting almost as bad as mine.....i dont have a problem with them but it seems some on here do

I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:33:26 AM
This morning the chief executive of Airbus said the company would be forced to make “potentially very harmful decisions for the UK” in the event of a no deal Brexit. In a video statement Tom Enders said: “Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong.”

In June Airbus said that it could leave Britain altogether if the country left the EU’s single market and customs union without a transition deal. The aerospace firm employs 14,000 people at 25 sites in Britain.

from today’s Times.

Boeing will just fill the vacuum.  The UK will no longer succumb to French threats.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there

Why on earth would he as he intends to sell most of them to China?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
The people of the UK decided what they wanted in 2016, it is the MPs who are messing it up in order to suit their own agendas.

Feeding out of the self-interest trough. LABOUR shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has pocketed £125,000 from one of the law firms that derailed Brexit – including £25,000 since he became MP.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2125612/labour-shadow-brexit-secretary-keir-starmer-pockets-125000-from-law-firm-derailing-britains-eu-exit/amp/#click=https://t.co/YKxayb6fZz

That's the problem. When an MP says 'for the good of the country' it may be that they beleive it or it may be that they're protecting the interests of their sponsors.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 11:41:22 AM
I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.

best wishes  for your operation...im probably lazy in that respect too
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:41:51 AM
That's the problem. When an MP says 'for the good of the country' it may be that they beleive it or it may be that they're protecting the interests of their sponsors.

Take Yvette Cooper for example, she is leading attempts to destroy BREXIT despite 70% of her constituents voting leave. How on earth can she justify such a position?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
The worrying thing is ...are those running teh EU....and controlling our future....any better....I dont think they are

Politics is a dirty game. We don't have much control over our own politicians and we have less over the EU ones. For that reason alone it behoves us to be wary of giving them power over us. In my opinion the smaller and more local the better from a democratic point of view.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 24, 2019, 12:02:05 PM
I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.

I hope that goes well for you G.

I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there


That is because his biggest market is in Asia. China in particular.  They have already set aside parts of regions to test  driverless cars.

https://www.2025ad.com/latest/china-driverless-cars-report/

It takes  a long time to get a drivers licience in China. I get terrified beyond control when I go there... Especially  in the outer parts. No pedestrian crossings- you walk normal and the cars drive around you!!!!!  I advise wearing thick pants!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 12:04:46 PM
Take Yvette Cooper for example, she is leading attempts to destroy BREXIT despite 70% of her constituents voting leave. How on earth can she justify such a position?

She can't. But she's no fan of democracy anyway; that was clear when Corbyn was elected Labour Leader.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 24, 2019, 02:13:47 PM
Please note that the posts relating to Scottish history, nationhood and independence have their own thread.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 24, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
She can't. But she's no fan of democracy anyway; that was clear when Corbyn was elected Labour Leader.

None of the Westminster politicians seem to inspire confidence in their capabilities.
Rather worrying at this time of huge decisions.
I wish you well in your forthcoming cataract removal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
It's quite possible that many of the MPs voting on this very important issue have little real knowledge of the [ censored word ] and cons of leaving the EU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 04:18:01 PM
It's quite possible that many of the MPs voting on this very important issue have little real knowledge of the [ censored word ] and cons of leaving the EU

Which issue are you referring to, Davel?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 04:27:07 PM

BBC considers setting up EU base in Belgium after Brexit

Move needed for licences to continue broadcasting across member states

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/24/bbc-international-hq-belgium-brexit-netherlands-ireland-eu
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 24, 2019, 04:37:35 PM
There were a succession of Brexit ministers who were all Leavers, did any of them come up with anything resembling a better deal?  What IS a better deal?  One in which the EU agrees to everything we want?  Well that’s not going to happen, and never was.

One of the brexit ministers (can't remember his name) said as he resigned that he had not had any input in the decision making nor discussions whilst in post.   David Davis also said he hadn't even seen the Checkers proposal until it was unveiled and that was why he resigned.

That makes it a mockery to employ Brexit believing ministers in that post if they are not allowed to be part of the discussions. 

All IMO

Don't you wonder why there have been so many ministers resign? I don't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
None of the Westminster politicians seem to inspire confidence in their capabilities.
Rather worrying at this time of huge decisions.
I wish you well in your forthcoming cataract removal.

I have never had confidence in their capabilities, so no surprises there.

Thank you for the gopd wishes. It's a farly simple procedure done in the day clinic so it should be fine.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 05:49:16 PM
One of the brexit ministers (can't remember his name) said as he resigned that he had not had any input in the decision making nor discussions whilst in post.   David Davis also said he hadn't even seen the Checkers proposal until it was unveiled and that was why he resigned.

That makes it a mockery to employ Brexit believing ministers in that post if they are not allowed to be part of the discussions. 

All IMO

Don't you wonder why there have been so many ministers resign? I don't.

Hmm. How could he not have seen the Chequers plan if he was in charge of UK negotiations?

IMO, they all had different ideas of what Brexit meant, didn't have a clue how complex it was going to be, and believe(d) that the UK was going to be able to dictate all the terms.

It took ages for it to even sink in that the divorce agreement and trade deals were different phases...

A bit like Flat-Earthers going on a world conference cruise and never stopping to wonder how ships actually navigate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 06:12:53 PM
If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Er, not that’s not what I mean.  Brexit means leaving the EU, now did they vote for a hard one or a soft one?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 06:34:12 PM
I have never had confidence in their capabilities, so no surprises there.

Thank you for the gopd wishes. It's a farly simple procedure done in the day clinic so it should be fine.

Wishing you the best for your op as well, G-Unit. I'll have to have the same done at some point, as most of us will.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 08:39:40 PM
Er, not that’s not what I mean.  Brexit means leaving the EU, now did they vote for a hard one or a soft one?

As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 08:45:11 PM
As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.

That may not be your view, but what about those who may have believed that everything would have carried on much  as before, minus a few tweaks?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 24, 2019, 08:52:05 PM
I liked this comment on question time.. Angela Merkel needs to sell 850,000 cars to this country... There are 2 million German jobs at stake... After no deal that phone is going to be ringing pretty quickly
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 09:05:40 PM
That may not be your view, but what about those who may have believed that everything would have carried on much  as before, minus a few tweaks?

What about them? If they don't understand the word 'leave' they could be beyond help imo. I include some politicians in that too.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.
Did you understand that by leaving there would be no free trade deal with the EU?  Is that what you voted for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 10:00:04 PM
Did you understand that by leaving there would be no free trade deal with the EU?  Is that what you voted for?

I didn't vote for anything, but I understood what leave meant. Terminate, withdraw, depart.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 24, 2019, 10:03:49 PM
I didn't vote for anything, but I understood what leave meant. Terminate, withdraw, depart.
You didn’t vote at all??   And yet you seem so sure of what you think is right. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 11:01:39 PM
If a small majority of people had agreed to drink Kool-Aid with the promise of sunlight uplands on Planet Zeta, then discovered that maybe Planet Zeta was unlikely to offer what they had been told, does everyone still have to drink it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 06:04:01 AM
You didn’t vote at all??   And yet you seem so sure of what you think is right.

I know what leave means and I know what the result of the referendum vote was; it's not rocket science. I also understand what democracy is, which a lot of people appear to be struggling wth.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 07:13:41 AM
I know what leave means and I know what the result of the referendum vote was; it's not rocket science. I also understand what democracy is, which a lot of people appear to be struggling wth.
A process which you declined to take part in, I find that odd considering your strong views on the matter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 09:23:00 AM
A process which you declined to take part in, I find that odd considering your strong views on the matter.

I have strong views on democracy, but not on Brexit as such. I didn't actually care whether the UK remained in the EU or not. If the vote had been a victory for remain and politicians had tried to circumvent that result I would have been just as scathing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 25, 2019, 09:32:48 AM

From what I have gathered Britain handed over all of its Right to The EU, and now The EU is refusing to give some of them back.

But I no longer care of what they do.  France has been very good to me.  So I won't be going anywhere any time soon.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 25, 2019, 11:57:49 AM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825

So Britain no longer controls its own security.  What a disgraceful admission.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
So Britain no longer controls its own security.  What a disgraceful admission.

A fear of "illegal immigrants", appears to have been a major "selling point" for Brexit, on the back of the refugee crisis and that they would have freedom of movement.

That doesn't seem totally accurate. If they get official travel documents, they generally don't need visas to visit other countries within the Schengen area.

This is from Latvia's official information about refugee travel documents:

"According to the Council Regulation (EC) No. 1932/2006 exemption from the visa requirement to enter another Member State of the EU, except for the United Kingdom and Ireland, but including Norway and Iceland, applies to the refugees who reside permanently in another Member State and who are holders of a travel document issued by that Member State."

https://www.pmlp.gov.lv/en/home/services/passports/refugee%E2%80%99s-travel-document.html

Checking what that regulation says:

"COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 1932/2006
of 21 December 2006
amending Regulation (EC) No 539/2001
listing the third countries whose na
tionals must be in possession
of visas when crossing the external borders
and those whose nationals are ex
empt from that requirement

... The United Kingdom and Ireland are not
 bound by Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. They
are therefore not taking part in the adopti
on of this Regulation and are not bound by or
subject to the application thereof. "

http://www.europeanmigrationlaw.eu/documents/EML_DIRECTIVE_CELEX-32006R1932_EN.pdf (p. 5)

And trying to verify if it meant what I thought it did:

"Refugees need to apply for a standard travel visa from their host country if they're not sponsored."
 (I selected refugee, wanting to visit UK as a "tourist".)
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa

Other possibilities:

"Family reunion visas for refugees

If you were separated from your partner or child when you were forced to leave your country, you can apply for them to join you in the UK.

To apply you must have been given asylum or 5 years’ humanitarian protection, and not have British citizenship."

https://www.gov.uk/apply-to-come-to-the-uk

So... the idea that millions of refugees hosted by other countries could suddenly leg it to the UK without trace doesn't appear to be totally accurate.

Based on that, I'm bewildered as to how no longer being in Europol, nor having access to the Schengen Information System (SIS2), (there was a time-limited partial access in the event of a deal, which presumably falls apart in a no-deal), and no longer being part of the Galileo project is meant to meant to improve security.

How is UK-French police cooperation supposed to continue in Calais?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 12:46:34 PM
On the idea of the UK unilaterally cancelling tariffs on imports.

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1088696249652572160

Oh dear.

I'd never heard of Delingpole... Seems he's the executive editor of Breitbart, London.

If even Andrew Neill pulls him apart... lol

An additional point not made clear in this short clip isn't just that the UK would have to apply zero tariffs to the rest of the world, it encourages dumping, thus making life even more complicated for UK-based businesses who wouldn't be able to compete even on their home turf. How is that going to Make the UK Great Again?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 02:23:16 PM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there

Apparently, his car will be manufactured in Singapore - which is where he's seemingly shifting his HQ to.

Singapore and the EU signed a trade agreement in October 2018.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1926


Early Feb 2017, he opened a big R & D centre there.

Dyson, which currently employs 1,100 people in Singapore, said it plans to grow its Singapore-based engineering team by 50 per cent. It is seeking talent across a broad range of engineering disciplines, including connectivity, motors, sensors, robotics and software. The new centre will create an additional 190 jobs over the next five years.
Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/dyson-opens-s-587m-r-amp-d-centre-at-singapore-science-park-7592436

Maybe UK engineers could get jobs over there?

If, indeed, his biggest market is Asia, it makes sense for the company to move closer. So far, so good.

But why did he jump on the Brexit bandwagon?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 25, 2019, 03:20:39 PM
I liked this comment on question time.. Angela Merkel needs to sell 850,000 cars to this country... There are 2 million German jobs at stake... After no deal that phone is going to be ringing pretty quickly

The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 03:37:09 PM
The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet.

The UK and Germany can't do their own separate little deal, though.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 04:23:03 PM
Some Leavers think no-deal is the only version that is "true" to Brexit.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1088807915933388800

Yet arch-Brexiteer Farage himself kept going on about a "Norway deal".
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1088818772486602752
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 07:24:15 PM
The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet.
If the GBP want German cars they will still be able to buy German cars, they will just cost more than pre-Brexit. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 07:48:02 PM

French firms with UK ties told to look for alternatives as Brexit looms

French minister launches booklet that warns companies should seek other options in case of no-deal Brexit


French businesses working with British contractors or suppliers should now be actively seeking out alternatives, the French government has said, as it further ramped up preparations for a no-deal Brexit that it sees as increasingly likely.

“Let’s not panic, but let’s prepare for different scenarios,” the Europe minister, Nathalie Loiseau, said on Friday as she unveiled a 28-page booklet for companies with British ties, which advises them to adopt the UK’s wartime motto and “keep calm and carry on”.

Companies reliant on UK business partners should explore other options outside Britain, while those with UK-based operations in specific EU-regulated sectors such as pharmaceuticals should think about moving them to the continent, the guidance says
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/france-advises-firms-with-uk-ties-to-prepare-for-no-deal-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 08:15:28 PM
A no deal Brexit may actually turn out to have some advantages for Europe, if the exodus of big businesses from the UK means they end up relocating to European cities instead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 25, 2019, 09:34:24 PM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825

Other ex-MI6/defence staff have said that there are threats to UK security buried within Theresa May's (failed) EU Brexit deal. They advocate an exit based on WTO rules with UK retaining full sovereignty, which is presumably what comes into play under a no-deal Brexit. Who to believe......?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/exhead-of-mi6-urges-tory-chairs-not-to-back-mays-deal-as-it-threatens-national-security-a4035601.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 10:32:59 PM
Other ex-MI6/defence staff have said that there are threats to UK security buried within Theresa May's (failed) EU Brexit deal. They advocate an exit based on WTO rules with UK retaining full sovereignty, which is presumably what comes into play under a no-deal Brexit. Who to believe......?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/exhead-of-mi6-urges-tory-chairs-not-to-back-mays-deal-as-it-threatens-national-security-a4035601.html

I don't see what WTO has got to do with security. May's deal or no-deal, the UK will still be out of Europol, SIS2, Galileo...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 11:00:48 PM

Cabinet Office compares no-deal Brexit to Iceland ash cloud chaos

Eyjafjallajökull seen as nearest recent example of what civil service could have to cope with

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/cabinet-office-compares-no-deal-brexit-to-iceland-ash-cloud-chaos


"The government has a running list of “reasonable worst-case scenarios”, which is constantly being amended and updated. Earlier this month it included a gamut of serious concerns.

(...)

Another scenario is that the UK and EU will not have secured a data protection agreement before Brexit, which could prevent police from having instant access to information held by European forces on EU citizens arrested in the UK."

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 25, 2019, 11:23:09 PM
Cabinet Office compares no-deal Brexit to Iceland ash cloud chaos

Eyjafjallajökull seen as nearest recent example of what civil service could have to cope with

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/cabinet-office-compares-no-deal-brexit-to-iceland-ash-cloud-chaos


"The government has a running list of “reasonable worst-case scenarios”, which is constantly being amended and updated. Earlier this month it included a gamut of serious concerns.

(...)

Another scenario is that the UK and EU will not have secured a data protection agreement before Brexit, which could prevent police from having instant access to information held by European forces on EU citizens arrested in the UK."

Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 11:32:49 PM
Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 26, 2019, 12:09:27 AM
I don't see what WTO has got to do with security. May's deal or no-deal, the UK will still be out of Europol, SIS2, Galileo...

I assume it's something to do with the WTO rules which state that a signatory should have secure borders. If some of our national security is abrogated to the EU under the deal, how would that work in ensuring non-discriminatory import checks & financial issues?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 12:22:04 AM
I assume it's something to do with the WTO rules which state that a signatory should have secure borders. If some of our national security is abrogated to the EU under the deal, how would that work in ensuring non-discriminatory import checks & financial issues?

In what way would UK security be abrogated to the EU under May's deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 12:55:44 AM
An interesting talk by Sir Ivan Rogers, who seems scathing of both sides.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/sites/european-institute/files/sir_ivan_rogers_lecture_ucl_22012019.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 26, 2019, 12:58:38 AM
In what way would UK security be abrogated to the EU under May's deal?

I don't know as  haven't seen the full wording of the agreement reached with the EU re. security. Can you point me in the right direction, please, as the ex-officers must know something which has not been widely discussed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 02:59:30 AM
I don't know as  haven't seen the full wording of the agreement reached with the EU re. security. Can you point me in the right direction, please, as the ex-officers must know something which has not been widely discussed

Security starts on p. 104 re the transition period.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759019/25_November_Agreement_on_the_withdrawal_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_from_the_European_Union_and_the_European_Atomic_Energy_Community.pdf

And the (non-binding) outline of the future relationship is in the other document, p. 15+.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 04:17:21 AM
Here is the Twitter thread in that article. https://twitter.com/hthjones/status/1083369564711342080?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-42772810951273023920.ampproject.net%2F1901081935550%2Fframe.html

Guthrie, Palantir... Hmm.

Then, there's this "article" in Briefings-for-Brexit, which reads like a hard Brexit blog. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/prime-minister-misleading-country-on-security/

His arguments are certainly not how I read pp 17 et seq of the political agreement. I can't see any abrogation of sovereignty anywhere in it.

My impression is that they just that they wanted to vote down May's deal. The sceptic in me makes me wonder if there are US interests in the background. 


From the last section of the Wiki page on Dearlove,


"On 8 June 2017, Dearlove intervened on the day of the 2017 UK general election in The Daily Telegraph saying "how profoundly dangerous it would be for the nation if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister."[24]

On 29 November 2018 Dearlove co-signed an open letter, published in a British national newspaper, condemning Prime Minister Theresa May's negotiated Withdrawal Agreement for the United Kingdom from the European Union after the 2016 Referendum on the issue, as the matter was passing through the House of Commons to be voted upon. In its text he stated that the Withdrawal Agreement as negotiated undermined MI6's nationally independent global intelligence power.[25]
In a published response, dated the same day, the Prime Minister's Office issued a public "rebuttal" to the letter's content, singling out Dearlove personally from the named list of several signatories to the open letter, stating the Withdrawal Agreement "absolutely does not" compromise the national independence of the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service's capacity.[26]
In early December 2018 Dearlove, in a jointly authored text with Major-General Julian Thompson, published on the website 'Briefings for Brexit' an extensive reply to the Prime Minister's Office's statement entitled 'The Prime Minister is misleading the country on defence and security', citing a 'worryingly poor understanding of the issues' by the Prime Minister's office.[27]

On 8 January 2019, in an extraordinary intervention in the political sphere by figures from the S.I.S. and the military quarter, Dearlove sent a letter, co-signed by Field Marshal Lord Guthrie, to all Chairs of Conservative Party Parliamentary Constituency Associations with sitting Members of Parliament stating that the passage through the House of Commons of Prime Minister Theresa May's European Union Withdrawal Agreement contained decisions which fundamentally undermined the integrity of the Defence of the Realm, and requested that they take measures to discourage their parliamentary representatives from voting for it imminently in the Commons. The letter as an alternative advocated the case upon national security grounds that the United Kingdom should fully withdraw from the European Union without an Intergovernmental relationship between the two persisting after the process.[28][29]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dearlove

Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 05:15:21 AM
Something seems odd to me about that letter, and the rebuttals he apparently co-signed.

He seems quite measured and diplomatic in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrCRkyl7CZg
IMO, the style / language of the written pieces doesn't read like the same person. 



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 07:07:15 AM
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?

There are negatives with remaining in the EU too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:14:58 AM
There are negatives with remaining in the EU too.
Maybe so but that wasn’t the question asked.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 08:15:46 AM
The original Sky articls of the Dearlove / Guthrie letter includes more reactions from Parliament, so possibly more complete.
https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-threatens-national-security-ex-mi6-chief-sir-richard-dearlove-warns-11603738

Also worth reading Sir Ivan Rogers' analysis (posted above) of the behind the scenes positions of the various factions. Quite an eye-opener in some respects, IMO.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 10:10:44 AM
Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.


Project Fear was largely what the Leave campaign was based on, IMO, although it's often used to describe the Remain one.

Depending on the source, eg tabloids, the Remain camp may well have exaggerated on some points, although I can't recall any offhand, except that worst-case scenario re rampant inflation didn't occur. But the £ certainly crashed. http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=GBP&C2=EUR&YA=1&DD1=26&MM1=01&YYYY1=2014&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=26&MM2=01&YYYY2=2019&btnOK=Go%21

If the Leave campaign's repeated assertions about Turkey about to be welcomed as a member and therefore 70m Turks were going to suddenly descend on the UK wasn't intended to stoke up fear, I'm not sure how else to describe it. It wasn't the only outright lie, either.

The problem with much of what I do recall reading from the Remain campaign, knicknamed Project Fear, is that much of it is Project No-Deal Fact.

Have a read of Sir Ivan Rogers talk (link further up). He's just as scathing about both sides. lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 26, 2019, 10:30:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUbL1PB4BU&feature=share
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 10:54:37 AM
Maybe so but that wasn’t the question asked.

No it wasn't, but it's worth remembering that neither option is guaranteed to be easy. The voters have tried being in the EU and disliked it enough to vote to leave. It might be the best thing the UK ever did, it might be a disaster.

What seems clear to me is that those predicting disaster often have a vested interest in remaining in the EU. What might suit them or their business interests may not suit the rest of the population. What they think is best for the country may only be best for them. I don't know the answers and I don't know which commentators are truly putting the UK and it's people before their own interests. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUbL1PB4BU&feature=share

Clever and amusing, but they're still going on about £350m a week, which was debunked years ago.

As it happens, though, Deborah Meaden is no fan of Brexit by any stretch of the imagination.
https://twitter.com/DeborahMeaden
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 26, 2019, 11:17:10 AM
Clever and amusing, but they're still going on about £350m a week, which was debunked years ago.

As it happens, though, Deborah Meaden is no fan of Brexit by any stretch of the imagination.
https://twitter.com/DeborahMeaden

Just been listening to Douglas Rees, Mogg and according to him we were offered a Canada style deal last year
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
Just been listening to Douglas Rees, Mogg and according to him we were offered a Canada style deal last year

Hmmm. From what I've read recently, it wasn't the UK that was offered such a deal, but GB.

I changed the last bit, it wasn't that they'd forgotten Ireland, but the ++ bit wasn't acceptable.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Sad to see the European Medicines Agency taking down the 28 flags...

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 02:06:39 PM
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?

Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 03:21:27 PM
Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.

Thanks for you compliment, ;) but I did reply to you just further up or on the previous page.

As I suggested in that, try reading Ivan Rogers speech, for what it's worth. He touches on your concern about a federalist Europe.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 03:38:24 PM
I used to have diagrams of the various main bodies of the EU, what they do, who is elected versus appointed, or nominated then elected, and the different types of voting systems, which I can't find for the moment.

This brochure is quite helpful, I find.
https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/9a6a89dc-4ed7-4bb9-a9f7-53d7f1fb1dae
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 05:58:41 PM
No it wasn't, but it's worth remembering that neither option is guaranteed to be easy. The voters have tried being in the EU and disliked it enough to vote to leave. It might be the best thing the UK ever did, it might be a disaster.

What seems clear to me is that those predicting disaster often have a vested interest in remaining in the EU. What might suit them or their business interests may not suit the rest of the population. What they think is best for the country may only be best for them. I don't know the answers and I don't know which commentators are truly putting the UK and it's people before their own interests.
And vice versa.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
Sad to see the European Medicines Agency taking down the 28 flags...

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640
900 jobs lost in the UK as the move to the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 06:01:44 PM
Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.
Project Fear, leaver style.  Michel Barnier didn’t decide we should leave the EU so what do you mean exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 06:55:06 PM
This from Janice Turner in today’s Times sums up my position exactly (apart from I’m not a Labour member):

“I find, for the first time in my life, that I can’t convey what I want politically, only what I don’t want. Not a second referendum (less than a landslide and it won’t end the matter); not a Jeremy Corbyn government (though I’m a Labour member still); not a May government (but her likely Tory successors are worse). Not the Norway option (really, what is the point?). Neither a no-deal exit nor a nine-month delay, dragging this horror show into summer. I’m not thrilled about leaving but I don’t believe we can stay. I envy the inflexible zealots on both sides: at least they have goals. I want, what? To turn back time?”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 07:13:39 PM
Project Fear, leaver style.  Michel Barnier didn’t decide we should leave the EU so what do you mean exactly?

It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:18:52 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Michel Barnier is in charge of Brexit negotiations a position which he wouldn’t be in if we hadn’t decided to leave the EU.  If we really were controlled by unelected EU bureacrats presumably we wouldn’t be in the situation we currently find ourselves in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:20:55 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Perhaps you might like to read this, or perhaps you prefer to keep on spouting that old hackneyed phrase without thought.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:23:51 PM
And then there’s this
https://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/european-laws-are-made-by-unelected-bureaucrats/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 07:29:04 PM
Michel Barnier is in charge of Brexit negotiations a position which he wouldn’t be in if we hadn’t decided to leave the EU.  If we really were controlled by unelected EU bureacrats presumably we wouldn’t be in the situation we currently find ourselves in.

It has taken over 40 years to have an EU referendum in the UK, all the while the EU has changed from that which existed at the time of the previous one.  David Cameron regrets making a referendum an election pledge.   He wanted to stay in Europe and maintain the status quo.  The people did not. It is not the fault of leave voters that Theresa May (a remainer) made such a hash of negociations, nor that there is an unelected individual in charge on the EU side.

I gather you also voted remain VS as I did.  I have regretted my choice, perhaps one day you will too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 08:39:56 PM
It has taken over 40 years to have an EU referendum in the UK, all the while the EU has changed from that which existed at the time of the previous one.  David Cameron regrets making a referendum an election pledge.   He wanted to stay in Europe and maintain the status quo.  The people did not. It is not the fault of leave voters that Theresa May (a remainer) made such a hash of negociations, nor that there is an unelected individual in charge on the EU side.

I gather you also voted remain VS as I did.  I have regretted my choice, perhaps one day you will too.
Negotiations.  Why do you keep spelling this word wrong when you must have read it a thousand times this year already, if you read the daily press? 
How could I ever regret voting to remain when we are leaving the EU?  My vote counted for nothing.
Incidentally who voted for the numerous Brexit negotiators on our side?  Did you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 09:03:16 PM
Negotiations.  Why do you keep spelling this word wrong when you must have read it a thousand times this year already, if you read the daily press? 
How could I ever regret voting to remain when we are leaving the EU?  My vote counted for nothing.
Incidentally who voted for the numerous Brexit negotiators on our side?  Did you?

None of them were my MP so no I didn't but someone voted for them.  Apart from Olly Robbins I suppose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:17:38 PM
This from Janice Turner in today’s Times sums up my position exactly (apart from I’m not a Labour member):

“I find, for the first time in my life, that I can’t convey what I want politically, only what I don’t want. Not a second referendum (less than a landslide and it won’t end the matter); not a Jeremy Corbyn government (though I’m a Labour member still); not a May government (but her likely Tory successors are worse). Not the Norway option (really, what is the point?). Neither a no-deal exit nor a nine-month delay, dragging this horror show into summer. I’m not thrilled about leaving but I don’t believe we can stay. I envy the inflexible zealots on both sides: at least they have goals. I want, what? To turn back time?”

This whole nightmare seems to be about what people don't want, not what they do.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:22:12 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?

He's in charge of negotiating on behalf of everyone. The moderator. It's the 27 + 1 who decide.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 09:28:24 PM
He's in charge of negotiating on behalf of everyone. The moderator. It's the 27 + 1 who decide.

He appears to be making the decisions on behalf of the EU rather than simply  following their wishes.   This is the impression I have gained from EU politicians comments recently.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:32:43 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?


Sunny, he's in charge of the preparation and the process - he's not a one-man show. He has to listen to everyone and get them all to agree on how to move forward.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2019, 09:37:23 PM
This whole nightmare seems to be about what people don't want, not what they do.

Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:45:04 PM
He appears to be making the decisions on behalf of the EU rather than simply  following their wishes.   This is the impression I have gained from EU politicians comments recently.

A member leaving is unprecedented territory. IMO, it's one thing to have a legal script to follow, that had never been tested, and another to get it to work in practice, with 28 governmennts to deal with. I don't envy his job. I don't envy May's one, either, whatever my view on the whole mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 10:00:21 PM
Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.

What IS Brexit? The government can't even agree.

A slim majority of those who voted (excluding those who didn't bother or couldn't) chose to leave the EU, amidst apparently dodgy psyops campaign tactics.

That was 2.5 years ago.

Now, with just 10 weeks to go, still nothing - the why, when, what and how -  is clear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:05:55 PM
None of them were my MP so no I didn't but someone voted for them.  Apart from Olly Robbins I suppose.
No one voted for any of them to become the chief Brexit negotiator for the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:15:48 PM
Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.
Project Fear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:22:52 PM
Hopefully an article we can all enjoy:

Stock up now on loo rolls, dog food, diaries and Grayling gaffes
Matt ChorleyJanuary 26 2019, 12:01am,

Britain is not good in a crisis. This is a country that loses its mind when it can’t buy KFC chicken, or when all it can get is a vegan sausage roll. Our second-busiest airport was brought to a standstill by a drone which might not have existed. We had a national nervous breakdown at the idea of changing the name of salad cream, rescuing some penguins and turning off Big Ben’s bongs.

So how are we supposed to cope if we leave the EU without a deal? A nation deprived of its Spanish little gem lettuce is certain to revolt.

Luckily, we are getting prepared. A survey of Mumsnet users revealed that more than half are stocking up on pasta, lentils and baked beans. In entirely unrelated news 56 per cent have also bought more loo roll.

A guide circulating among Facebook groups for “Brexit Preppers” offers advice on what to do if things go really bad: “You can line your toilet with plastic bags in the event of water being switched off and dispose of the contents away from your house.” Close to Boris Johnson’s house, presumably.

Pets at Home, every parent’s favourite free day out (“Look at the fish! Look at the guinea pigs! Look at the worming tablets!”) announced it was stockpiling dog food. I’m sure we will get used to the taste. Or we could just cut out the middleman and eat the dog. (I was going to say cat, but I know from previous experience with my feline-loving readers that cat people are like EU-beret wearing Remoaners without the sense of humour.)

The makers of Bisto are buying extra ingredients, which is taking stockpiling a bit literally. Iceland supermarkets, though, are not bothering. Which is bad news if you were planning to celebrate Easter with a prawn ring and a Viennetta, just like Jesus would have wanted.

WH Smith, however, announced that it was stockpiling diaries, which by definition have a limited shelf life. They are their own sell-by date. It turns out these dingy, chaotic stores are just preparing for a stationery apocalypse. Never mind Brexit; can anyone explain how WH Smith is surviving the high street bloodbath with a business model based on autobiographies by 23-year-olds, cut-price chocolate oranges and selling newspapers cheaper if you take a two-gallon bottle of water off their hands as well?

Even newspapers are stocking up on supplies of paper and ink for no deal. As anyone who has bought a printer cartridge will know, ink is one of the most mind-bogglingly expensive commodities on earth, up there between diamonds and saffron.

The government is taking no chances, and has been building up supplies of life’s essentials: medicines, fuel, iPhone chargers. There is a massive collection of Chris Grayling gaffes in a warehouse in Milton Keynes ready to be rolled out after March 29 to reassure the public that normal life is continuing. They include the reintroduction of highwaymen with muskets, filling potholes with corned beef and the revelation that HS2 actually stands for “HopScotch” not “High Speed”, meaning commuters travelling to Birmingham will have to throw a small stone and only jump on the odd numbers. And Theresa May will still be in charge, proving that whatever the ingredients, she can make a meal of anything.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 12:32:14 AM
Project Fear.

One should never underestimate the power of the public if their hand is forced. Why do you think the army has been mobilised?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 07:27:33 AM
As far as I can see Parliament has two choices. Accept May's deal or don't accept it. If they don't accept it the UK will leave the EU with no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 08:07:58 AM
No one voted for any of them to become the chief Brexit negotiator for the UK.

Very true but if you read their comments they believe they were peripheral to the negotiations anyway.   David Davis believed he was largely ignored IMO.

The person running them was Theresa May with the advice of Olly Robbins. Theresa May was elected by her constituents to parliament then elected by other MPs to be PM.  Whether she was a good choice as PM or to carry out negotiations remains to be seen. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:05:30 AM
One should never underestimate the power of the public if their hand is forced. Why do you think the army has been mobilised?
Project Fear.  Are you saying leaving the EU without a deal will lead to rioting on the streets, because that is why the army has been mobilized, you do realise?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Very true but if you read their comments they believe they were peripheral to the negotiations anyway.   David Davis believed he was largely ignored IMO.

The person running them was Theresa May with the advice of Olly Robbins. Theresa May was elected by her constituents to parliament then elected by other MPs to be PM.  Whether she was a good choice as PM or to carry out negotiations remains to be seen.

That may be true, Sunny, or partially so.

On the other hand, when one of them says that it was going to be the "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", or shared on TV the significance of the Dover-Calais route for shipping goods as if it were a little-known fact, saying they were sidelined sounds a bit like Larry the Cat ate their homework. LOL

Or perhaps it is true but May became so exasperated that she ended up giving them some crayons and paper and asking them to sit nicely in a corner...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:20:10 AM
I'd forgotten that the UK is now on Brexit Secretary No. 3 - in the form of Stephen Barclay.

According to the BBC, [Barclay] voted Leave at the 2016 Brexit referendum, tweeting in February 2016 that David Cameron's attempt to renegotiate the UK's membership "did not deliver the game changer we need to protect against further EU integration"
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46241720

So hardly a remainer, either.

Jim Crace's - admittedly tongue-in-cheek description of No 3 - doesn't inspire much confidence, either:


Looking for Brexit answers? Don't ask the Brexit secretary
John Crace
 Thu 24 Jan 2019 15.47 GMT
Last modified on Thu 24 Jan 2019 20.30 GMT



Stephen Barclay’s intensive training in knowing nothing pays dividends in the Commons


Third time lucky. The first two iterations of Brexit secretary hadn’t gone well. David Davis had been too lazy and too dim to do anything very much, while Dominic Raab had been under the impression that he was in control of the process and de facto prime minister. In Stephen Barclay, Theresa May had finally found a square peg for a square hole. A man with the perfect CV. One that was almost entirely blank.

Barclay is no fool. Far from it. It takes a man of above average intelligence to recognise that his primary role is to understand as little as possible about Brexit. A job he performs with the utmost diligence by going to extraordinary lengths to remain uninformed. His ignorance is a conscious act. Every day is a battle to ward off civil servants tempting him with briefing notes, and to make sure he knows a little less than he did before. Give him time and he’ll barely be able to remember he’s a government minister. Much like everyone else.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/24/looking-for-brexit-answers-dont-ask-the-brexit-secretary

I'd find it screamingly funny if the situation weren't so serious...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:29:08 AM
And I don't know who Corbyn would have appointed if he'd won a new general election.

Diane Abbot?

The mind boggles...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 10:54:09 AM
Project Fear.  Are you saying leaving the EU without a deal will lead to rioting on the streets, because that is why the army has been mobilized, you do realise?

No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
And I don't know who Corbyn would have appointed if he'd won a new general election.

Diane Abbot?

The mind boggles...

The difficulties with BREXIT are all false flags imo created by the Corbyn mob in an attempt to grab power.  So far it has failed but at what price to the rest of us.  God help us if that Marxist idiot ever became the leader of our country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 11:06:39 AM
That may be true, Sunny, or partially so.

On the other hand, when one of them says that it was going to be the "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", or shared on TV the significance of the Dover-Calais route for shipping goods as if it were a little-known fact, saying they were sidelined sounds a bit like Larry the Cat ate their homework. LOL

Or perhaps it is true but May became so exasperated that she ended up giving them some crayons and paper and asking them to sit nicely in a corner...

Or perhaps she never utilised them properly in the first place and relied on Olly Robbins' advice. That is the impression that David Davis gave from very early on.

Who's to say that with a competent negotiator we couldn't have achieved a deal relatively easily. Theresa May wanted to stay very close to the EU and tied her own hands behind her back.

She has totally reneged on her Lancaster speech IMO
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.

I presume that this is simply your assumption, or do you have inside knowledge?

There may well be, as often happens if basic neccessities are all but unobtainable.

And there may well be agit-prop hooligans joining in if they have nothing else on their calendar in April, as is also often the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if EDL-type groups aren't fine-tuning a plan of action in anticipation.

An interesting excerpt from the Wiki page on Tommy Robinson, who just happened to pop into my head.


UKIP affiliation

In September 2018, Robinson expressed a desire to join the UK Independence Party (UKIP). On 23 November 2018, UKIP leader Gerard Batten appointed Robinson as his own adviser.[136] In response, the former UKIP leader Nigel Farage described Robinson as a "thug" and said he was heartbroken with the direction UKIP was going.[137] Farage and Brown called for Batten to be removed as leader.[136] At a UKIP meeting on 30 November, Robinson sat beside Daniel Thomas, a convicted kidnapper.[138]

Many prominent UKIP members resigned from the party in response to Robinson's appointment, including two former party leaders[139], six of the party's thirteen MEPs[140] and the party leader in Scotland.[141]

UKIP's rules prohibit membership to those who have been part of extreme right wing groups in the past, which preclude Robinson from joining as he founded the English Defence League (EDL), had been a member of the British National Party, and had ties for a while with the British Freedom Party.

UKIP's National Executive Committee intends to consider waiving that clause for Robinson as a special case. If approved, his possible membership would be put to a vote at the party's conference.[142] The committee's decision was deferred until after 29 March 2019.[143] Batten supports Robinson joining the party, while UKIP Welsh Assembly members Michelle Brown and David Rowlands said they oppose it.[144]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 11:24:52 AM
I doubt anyone on this forum is in favour of civil unrest Carana however who knows what others may do.

I also do not think anyone here would support anyone who colludes with Tommy Robinson and his ilk.

There is however a groundswell of opinion in the UK that parliament is now not working for us but only themselves. They also appear to be trying to change the law so the government of the day cannot govern without parliaments say so.

All very worrying for now and also the future regardless of the outcome of Brexit IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
The difficulties with BREXIT are all false flags imo created by the Corbyn mob in an attempt to grab power.  So far it has failed but at what price to the rest of us.  God help us if that Marxist idiot ever became the leader of our country.

As someone who can only cope with a small, temporary, Bollinger bandwith either side of the midpoint, you may be heartened to learn that I can't cope with Corbyn any more than Farage.

However, I haven't seen much evidence of the far-left attempting to influence people's perceptions of the potential, and now likely, consequences of Brexit.

The basic consequences of a no-deal situation, that were poo-pooed as Project Fear by the Right over two years ago, are largely correct, IMO.

It's not far-left propaganda to state that, in theory, planes will no longer have air clearance or certification, pilots won't have EU licenses to fly them, UK citizens won't have access to e-passport controls (although that appears to have been temporarily waived) or that bums have to get into gear to work out how to deal with the dozens of thousands of lorries that deliver vital supplies every day.

I expect that even in the event of a worst-case scenario, the EU will temporarily waive some rules on humanitarian grounds, but I wouldn't expect that to last too long.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:56:11 AM
I doubt anyone on this forum is in favour of civil unrest Carana however who knows what others may do.

I also do not think anyone here would support anyone who colludes with Tommy Robinson and his ilk.

There is however a groundswell of opinion in the UK that parliament is now not working for us but only themselves. They also appear to be trying to change the law so the government of the day cannot govern without parliaments say so.

All very worrying for now and also the future regardless of the outcome of Brexit IMO.

I certainly agree that the situation is worrying.

I really don't know how far May has been trying to save her party or to genuinely attemèpt to steer her view of the best way forward between the icebergs. However much my personal view is that there was a different way forward, I don't envy her job.

And, IMO, Corbyn appears to float on some Marxist cloud, way above the chimney tops. Although there are moderates (IMO) in the Labour party, he would still call the shots... and I find that the prospect would have been equally concerning.

Both main parties are split. Instead of the usual left-right, horizontal plane, the  UK now has a matrix of Left-Right, on the horizontal plan PLUS Remain to Leave on the vertical one.

If certain, possibly foreign, parties have played a geo-strategic game to create chaos, affecting more countries than just the UK, then they appear to be winning at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:09:58 PM
Or perhaps she never utilised them properly in the first place and relied on Olly Robbins' advice. That is the impression that David Davis gave from very early on.

Who's to say that with a competent negotiator we couldn't have achieved a deal relatively easily. Theresa May wanted to stay very close to the EU and tied her own hands behind her back.

She has totally reneged on her Lancaster speech IMO

It might be worth digging out the Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister series again, methinks. I have the box-set, but my DVD player has packed up, sadly. :(
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 12:21:26 PM
No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.
Right so it’s Project Fear if the army is being mobilised in the event of no deal, but not Project Fear if the army is being mobilised in the event of no Brexit.  Right you are then...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 12:21:55 PM
It might be worth digging out the Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister series again, methinks. I have the box-set, but my DVD player has packed up, sadly. :(

I love those. Watch them on youtube from time to time.   It also looks like the writer was correct when he showed the huge influence on the largely remain (according to David Davis) civil service
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 12:23:29 PM
What brilliant deal did David Davis have in mind that nasty ol’ Theresa wouldn’t let him negotiate?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:32:10 PM
What brilliant deal did David Davis have in mind that nasty ol’ Theresa wouldn’t let him negotiate?

Are you sitting down?

David Davis on Post-Brexit Global Trade (February 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V4dbzVRoq4
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:43:48 PM
I love those. Watch them on youtube from time to time.   It also looks like the writer was correct when he showed the huge influence on the largely remain (according to David Davis) civil service

We retain different things. LOLL

Mine is that politician peacocks come and go, often without a clue about their portfolio, but seasoned civil servants have the "been there, tried that" experience to know what is workable or not.

Over time, governments of various flavours turn up. The role of civil servantts is to keep the cogs in motion.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 27, 2019, 02:41:23 PM
Are you sitting down?

David Davis on Post-Brexit Global Trade (February 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V4dbzVRoq4

Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:22:18 PM
Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....
No, but he did in effect say that they need us more than we need them, so nil desperandum.  We all need to relax and wait for the EU to cave in and give us everything we want which they surely will on or around the 28th March.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 03:41:43 PM

The Exchange Rate between Euro and Pound is a teensy bit better today, although only fractional better than it has been and nothing to write home about.

I wonder what caused that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
The Exchange Rate between Euro and Pound is a teensy bit better today, although only fractional better than it has been and nothing to write home about.

I wonder what caused that.

The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:45:16 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.
At what point do you expect that to happen and under what circumstances- deal or no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 03:51:03 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

I have watched this for twenty years, and it has only ever got progressively worse.  It will take some time for The Pound to get back to where it was in the beginning, if it ever does.

Not that I care all that much any more.  It's swings and roundabouts for me since The French State stepped in to help me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:10:15 PM
Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....


He worked for Tate & Lyle for 17 years and worked in Canada at some point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

Not sure how that qualified him to become Brexit Secretary, which involves rather a lot more than shifting sugarr.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:14:34 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

Do you mean at 23:10 on 29 March, once all the international deals have been signed and are ready for immediate implementation?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

Vis-à-vis which currency?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 04:56:58 PM

He worked for Tate & Lyle for 17 years and worked in Canada at some point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

Not sure how that qualified him to become Brexit Secretary, which involves rather a lot more than shifting sugarr.
Perhaps Theresa thought if he asked the EU very nicely, with sugar on top, he'd get a sweet deal. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 05:11:18 PM

Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

This is the sort of EU27 backing that Ireland has been getting this week - Mark Rutte Dutch PM talking to UK reporters in Davos:

“Backstop wasn’t our idea” ... [ie UKs too] Given UKs red lines “it’s only thing on the table”... “what concessions do UK actually want?”

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1089533497558122496

Dutch PM also says no one wants a return to the Troubles.

Who has a viable solution to that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:06:02 PM

Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News

"A second referendum is not the preferred option for the Labour Party."

Len McCluskey says that with the Remain campaign "having lost", "coming out of the European Union is not the end of the world, providing you conclude an agreement that protects jobs".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1089573237816733697


I give up on the lot of them...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:11:12 PM
Peter Stefanovic
‏Verified account @PeterStefanovi2

Andrew Marr “So you don’t think people’s lives are threatened by no deal?”
Matt Hancock “so long as everyone does what they need to do.
. these things are always difficult!”
Not very comforting words from the Health Secretary!
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1089479426566434816


Which is?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 06:12:45 PM
Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News

"A second referendum is not the preferred option for the Labour Party."

Len McCluskey says that with the Remain campaign "having lost", "coming out of the European Union is not the end of the world, providing you conclude an agreement that protects jobs".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1089573237816733697


I give up on the lot of them...
Did he give us any clues on what sort of an agreement would protect jobs?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:22:13 PM
Did he give us any clues on what sort of an agreement would protect jobs?

No idea, TBH.

There's this, if it helps.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-len-mccluskey-blasts-theresa-13901089
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 06:33:08 PM
No idea, TBH.

There's this, if it helps.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-len-mccluskey-blasts-theresa-13901089
It’s all very well these smartarses criticising May and claiming they could do a better job, but has even one of them shed any light whatsoever on what they would have gone for in a negotiation with the EU or how they would have come out of such negotiations with anything approaching a better deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:48:37 PM
It’s all very well these smartarses criticising May and claiming they could do a better job, but has even one of them shed any light whatsoever on what they would have gone for in a negotiation with the EU or how they would have come out of such negotiations with anything approaching a better deal?

I found Ivan Rogers latest talk really interesting (and it's scathing about everyone, if that's any consolation for all camps).

No one seems to be interested.:(

Anyway, one of his points was (IIRC) that no one actually did have a viable alternative plan, but that most of the opposition (from either Labour or the right-wing of the Conservative party) was content to simply pick fault with the plan of the day.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
No comment....

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1089586660470345731
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:09:02 PM
No comment....

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1089586660470345731
”we will rebuild!”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:04:00 AM

Brexiters never had a real exit plan. No wonder they avoided the issue
Nick Cohen
Sat 26 Jan 2019 18.30 GMT

...After the prize was awarded to a political fantasy, Cummings gave fair warning of what was coming next. Writing in 2015, he admitted that the campaign would offer no exit plan: hard Brexit, soft Brexit or any Brexit in between. “There is much to be gained from swerving the whole issue,” he explained. Opponents of the EU “have been divided for years”. In any case, “the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/26/brexiters-never-had-a-real-exit-plan-no-wonder-they-avoided-the-issue?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:21:02 AM
Vicky Ford took the time to go through Lilley's "30 Myths".

https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/1088401489259884545
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 07:40:11 AM
Guy Verhofstadt
‏Verified account @guyverhofstadt

The time to agree an orderly withdrawal & deliver certainty is fast running out. Next week, the @Europarl_EN will start the process of ratifying the withdrawal agreement.
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1089469964908666880




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 08:12:14 AM

As I said, Britain gave away it's rights, and now they can't have some of them back.

I didn't vote in the original Referendum because I was uneasy about what I thought we weren't being told, but we were all so much more naive in those days.  But I doubt it was ever intended to be just a Common Market.

Now, after the last two years of absolute chaos, I have no idea of what Britain should do.

Sorry, not much help I know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
Vicky Ford took the time to go through Lilley's "30 Myths".

https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/1088401489259884545

I think the huge issue ... which was given little consideration initially ... is the Irish border and the opportunity it may give to idiots who in the past had a propensity for blowing people up and who became quite good at it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 11:57:28 AM
I think the huge issue ... which was given little consideration initially ... is the Irish border and the opportunity it may give to idiots who in the past had a propensity for blowing people up and who became quite good at it.

Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

What type of border is illegal under international law?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 01:31:54 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

I heard on the radio that Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975 and has consistently voted against EU membership ever since.  I imagine he is in a bit of a bind at present. Go with his heart or try to gain power.  He so far is trying to gain power, which is all our political classes seem to care about IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
As I said, Britain gave away it's rights, and now they can't have some of them back.

I didn't vote in the original Referendum because I was uneasy about what I thought we weren't being told, but we were all so much more naive in those days.  But I doubt it was ever intended to be just a Common Market.

Now, after the last two years of absolute chaos, I have no idea of what Britain should do.

Sorry, not much help I know.

I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
What type of border is illegal under international law?

The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:55:40 PM
Here's an example for Derren Brown (short version).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

I'll add a better link if I find one again. There's also another one that involves a toy shop. Don't want to spoil it if you haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 01:56:53 PM
I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:58:29 PM
I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:00:54 PM
I heard on the radio that Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975 and has consistently voted against EU membership ever since.  I imagine he is in a bit of a bind at present. Go with his heart or try to gain power.  He so far is trying to gain power, which is all our political classes seem to care about IMO.

Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.

Is there an international law against that possibility?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.

More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the world outside EU tariffs.

All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:07:14 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?

What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
Is there an international law against that possibility?

As I understand it the treaties between the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are enforceable under international law.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:11:52 PM
More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?

Was it discussed when the Referendim Bill was voted through Parliament? I don't know if it was or not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 02:15:14 PM
What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.

Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 02:20:14 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:25:46 PM
All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.

Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 02:55:24 PM
Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?

This was always going to be a problem.  No one can immediately see what could or will happen if Britain leaves The EU.  Just as no one saw what would happen when Britain joined.

Each side promotes its own agenda, and covers up the bad bits, some of which they are undoubtedly aware of.

Theresa May as a Remainer probably knows more about the Brexit bad bits.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 03:12:14 PM
Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/

More populous countries have more seats for MEP candidates that EU citizens can elect.

Yes, Germany has the most seats ( 2014: 96). Followed by France: 74; and joint third, UK and Italy: 73. Then Spain / Poland with 50

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/files/home-page/en-ep-brochure.pdf

However, up until now, UK citizens could vote for MEPs.

How is it elected?
England, Scotland and Wales

In a European Parliamentary election in England, Scotland and Wales, you have one vote to elect all of the MEPs for your region.

Each party puts forward a list of candidates – known as a regional list – and you vote for one of these lists or for an individual candidate standing as an independent.

The number of MEPs that are elected from each party to represent a region depends on the overall share of votes that each party receives.
Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland, there is a different voting system where you vote by ranking the candidates in order of preference. This is called the Single Transferable Vote.

https://www.yourvotematters.co.uk/how-am-i-represented/european-parliment

How many UK citizens actually realised that they could vote for MEPs?

Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 03:51:14 PM
Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.

Of course but I was trying to show his leanings on the Brexit debate.   We have a leaver on the opposition bench and a remainer in charge of brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 04:05:28 PM
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 04:09:19 PM
Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 04:59:37 PM
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.

Bercow is a horror story.  But they don't seem to be able to get rid of him.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 06:06:09 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?
IMO there is a complete disconnect between your two paragraphs.  One the one hand we have this all powerful superstate with its own army, secretly controlled by the super-efficient German master race, on the other hand we have a broken EU that is either bankrupt or heading that way, out of control and a complete disaster.  So, which is it, actually?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 06:12:48 PM
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:28:20 PM
That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).

But in addition, UK citizens have been able to vote for MEPs as well. When some people keep going on about "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (e.g. Farage, ironically), every eligible UK citizen has been able to have a say in electing the MEPs from their region, according to the party grouping that they would be joining.

In addition, they also have a say in the makeup of the other main bodies, albeit indirectly.

The European Parliament
The European Parliament (EP) is the only parliamentary institution of the European Union (EU) that is directly elected by EU citizens aged 18 or older. Together with the Council of the European Union (also known as the 'Council'), which should not be confused with the European Council and the Council of Europe, it exercises the legislative function of the EU. The Parliament is composed of 751 members (MEPs), that will become 705 starting from the 2019–2024 legislature (because specific provisions adopted about Brexit), who represent the second-largest democratic electorate in the world (after the Parliament of India) and the largest trans-national democratic electorate in the world (375 million eligible voters in 2009).[3][4][5]

It has been directly elected by the European citizens (each EU Member State's national has his state's nationality and EU one consequently) every five years and by universal suffrage since 1979. However, voter turnout at European Parliament elections has fallen consecutively at each election since that date, and has been under 50% since 1999. Voter turnout in 2014 stood at 42.54% of all European voters.[6]

Although the European Parliament has legislative power, as does the Council, they do not formally possess legislative initiative (it is for the European Commission), as most national parliaments of European Union member states do.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

The European Council
The European Council is a collective body that defines the European Union's overall political direction and priorities. It comprises the heads of state or government of the EU member states, along with the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy also takes part in its meetings.[1]

(...) While the European Council has no formal legislative power, it is a strategic (and crisis-solving) body that provides the union with general political directions and priorities, and acts as a collective presidency. The European Commission remains the sole initiator of legislation, but the European Council is able to provide an impetus to guide legislative policy.[2][3] /
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

The European Commission
The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker) proposed by the European Council[5] and elected by the European Parliament.[6] The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[7] The current Commission is the Juncker Commission, which took office in late 2014, following the European Parliament elections in May of the same year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission


Council of the European Union

The Council of the European Union (...) is part of the essentially bicameral EU legislature (the other legislative body being the European Parliament) and represents the executive governments of the EU's member states.[2][1]
(...)
The Council of the European Union and the European Council are the only EU institutions that are explicitly intergovernmental, that is forums whose attendees express and represent the position of their member state's executive, be they ambassadors, ministers or heads of state/government.

(...)
The Council meets in 10 different configurations of 28 national ministers (one per state). The precise membership of these configurations varies according to the topic under consideration; for example, when discussing agricultural policy the Council is formed by the 28 national ministers whose portfolio includes this policy area (with the related European Commissioners contributing but not voting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:41:04 PM
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.


https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1089929165137170432
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 06:43:04 PM
It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html

I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 07:00:01 PM
I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?

Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 08:26:05 PM
Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...

He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 10:34:07 PM
He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.

Don'tt know. Hard border surveillance could become a reality in the event of a no-deal, but he EU is unlikely to cede on the border issue.

But today isn't yet tomorrow...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 10:52:47 PM
An interesting article from the Mirror...

Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you
March 29 was a Brexiteer threat to bring people in line, and it has utterly failed

12:40, 23 JAN 2019Updated10:21, 24 JAN 2019
If Brexit were a film, it would be at the point where pages were being ripped off a calendar in a frenzy.

Tick, tock, goes the clock, as we get nearer to the day we were told was either the end of the beginning or beginning of the end. Only trouble is, March 29 is nothing but a plot device.

The fact is, Brexit is off. Formally ending the Article 50 legal clock is just an inevitable formality. When the nation finally realises this is a false ending you're going to see a lot of people avoiding the blame while you wonder why you've got to sit through any more of this tripe.

So allow me to explain.

We have had one meaningful vote, which achieved nothing meaningful. Next Monday Theresa May will present us with Plan B, which is exactly the same as Plan A but has had the 'A' Tipp-exed out. A second meaningful vote is scheduled for next Tuesday, in which Theresa will probably find she has negotiated her walloping, earlier defeat down to being a slightly-less walloping second defeat.

At this point, there will be fewer than 30 sitting days left for Parliament to pass all the legislation needed to Brexit with Theresa's deal. They might be able to increase it to 40 or so if they cancel half-term and Fridays.

To Brexit calmly and cleanly on March 29, in those 40 days Parliament must pass 9 Parliamentary bills and amend 600 other bits of legislation.

Now, that's a squeeze at the best of times. When the legislation involves things which make the whole nation argue furiously without coming to any agreement, it's going to be near-impossible.

Added to that, passing ANY laws under ANY circumstances in just 40 days - for debates in both the Commons and Lords, committee stages for detailed scrutiny, and several votes - is unwise to say the least.

That's how mistakes get made. They spent 6 months on the EU Referendum Bill, and cocked it up royally.

Video Loading
Question Time is proving an even more challenging experience as Brexit draws closer, says our man Kevin Maguire

"That's why I haven't written my memoirs yet - I'm still thinking of an excuse!" Credit: Graham Flack/Red Sky Shepherds Huts (Image: PA)
Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.

Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.

According to the government, this defeat means we are now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The government has been asked for this extra detail for 15 months, and has failed to come up with any. The chances of it doing so by a new deadline of February 25 are roughly the same as Ant McPartlin getting a safe driving award.


"AHAHA! Nice one Foxy" (Image: PA)
All the other bills are stuck in the digestive system of a Parliament still arguing about the principle of leaving. But there's an even worse issue in the shape of 12,000 EU regulations.

The government is transferring the vast majority of them straight into UK law, but some need to be tweaked using a statutory instrument. At first there was going to be about 1,000 of them, then 800, and finally last October it was decided we could get away with just changing 600 existing rules.

The government has submitted 333 of them so far. In other words, 75% of the time available for the task has elapsed, but only 56% of the work has been done.

Video Loading
PMQs: Jeremy Corbyn grills Theresa May over Customs Union

"Not my fault, guv'nor" (Image: AFP/Getty Images)
There's a further problem. Last year Parliament demanded more scrutiny of these "Henry VIII powers", in order to ensure it was done properly.

As a result, only 79 have been approved. That leaves 254 in the system, and 267 yet to be filed.

Those are the things that are needed to leave with Theresa's deal - which is why so many politicians are now fretting publicly about the threat of no deal.

The trouble is, NOT having a deal also requires legislation.


If only they spent more time in Parliament, and less on telly (Image: Getty Images Europe)
No deal means we have to pass that trade bill that's been shelved. It needs a financial services bill which has yet to get to the Commons for MP approval, and Parliament has also got to legislate for EU citizen's rights.

On top of that, no deal requires 60 new processes, 25 new IT systems, a "mega-bill" of 17 new laws to be passed by the Irish government, and - oh dear - all 600 of those statutory instruments to have been filed, read, and approved by MPs.

Not going to happen, is it? Not in 40 days, not in a month of Mondays.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2019, 03:00:58 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 07:14:58 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.
I don’t think the British Public has the stomach for months / years of chaos and food shortages.  But we shall see soon enough...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 07:49:01 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.

What a good idea.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 09:30:45 AM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 01:16:34 PM
Another rollercoaster day, apparently.

Amendments.
https://news.sky.com/story/how-mps-will-try-to-change-course-of-brexit-this-week-11619654
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 01:28:12 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*

The retailer consortium seems to be a little more concerned...

And Andrew Bridgen repeats the myth (first propagated by JRM, IIRC) that the UK will have tariff-free trade for 10 years under WTO's GATT Article XXIV while they thrash out an FTA. Spoiler: no it won't.
https://www.channel4.com/news/conservative-mp-andrew-bridgen-eu-will-blink-and-offer-us-better-terms
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 03:39:26 PM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.

If you mean leave with no deal, the UK will be a half-dead nag, and the vultures will be swirling.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 29, 2019, 04:21:19 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*


I haven't heard of anyone being worried about a shortage of lettuce but some seem to be anxious about vital medicines.
Whether they are correct to be anxious, I have no idea.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 04:26:18 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 05:14:09 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.

Good to hear that France is being helpful to you!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*
On turnips apparently.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 05:30:50 PM
Good to hear that France is being helpful to you!

France always has been, Carana.  This is why it has been difficult for me to decide what I think would be best for Britain.  But I still think that Brexit would be best.

France only see me as living below the bread line.  They aren't interested in my Nationality.  I am poor by their standards, so they help me.

More to the point, why are British State Pensions so disgusting?  I worked for all of my adult life for what I get.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:40:19 PM
Whoever thinks a vote to leave the EU meant a no-deal Brexit should ask themselves why pre-referendum a document called Our Case which Leave campaigners were encouraged to download and distribute to voters, and which is still available on their campaign website says: “Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop — we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 05:43:15 PM
Whoever thinks a vote to leave the EU meant a no-deal Brexit should ask themselves why pre-referendum a document called Our Case which Leave campaigners were encouraged to download and distribute to voters, and which is still available on their campaign website says: “Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop — we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave”.

That should be another for Led by Donkeys.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:58:48 PM
Aww, back in the good old days pre referendum when it all seemed so easy, so cake-and-eat-it, this was how it was going to work

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 06:50:24 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.

I was reading about why some people think it makes sense for those living permanently in France to apply for a residency permit or carte de sejour. You may have one, but if not these people know all about it;
https://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 07:20:00 PM
Channel 4 News
Published on Jan 29, 2019
Sabine Weyand, the EU's Deputy Brexit negotiator, gives her thoughts in a panel discussion on the Irish backstop, Theresa May's Brexit deal and the EU's future relationship with the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNe8qK_-wUI
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 07:21:17 PM
I was reading about why some people think it makes sense for those living permanently in France to apply for a residency permit or carte de sejour. You may have one, but if not these people know all about it;
https://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html

I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 07:48:58 PM
I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.

Hmmm. I think you should think about it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.

France is going to do anything to jeopardize expats bringing money into their country or the many French working in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 10:23:08 PM
So Parliament has sort of said what it wants and the EU has said they're not getting it. So it continues. If a deal isn't agreed then legally we leave on 29th March without one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 30, 2019, 08:09:10 AM
HOLD MY HAND WHILE WE JUMP OFF THIS CLIFF by Brian Bilston

‘Let’s jump off this cliff – it’ll be fun! A right laugh!’
urged all the people (well, I mean just over half
of those who had bothered to speak up at all).
I peered down at the rocks; it was a long way to fall.

I said, ‘This cliff’s more than three hundred feet high
and my doctor tells me if I jump I will die.’
‘Cliff-jumping’s fine!’ they said. ‘Don’t trust doctors, trust us!
We read all about it on the side of a bus.’

Worried, I met up with my local MP.
I shared my concerns. He was forced to agree:
‘Why the rocks below would smash you to bits!
Where did you get this idea of jumping off cliffs?’

‘It was the will of some of the people,’ I said
and his expression changed to another instead.
‘I think,’ he revised, ‘you’re being melodramatic.
The problem is you. You’re undemocratic.’

On the clifftop, we waited. In silence we stood.
Then a voice: ‘Remind me, why is cliff-jumping good?’
But we looked down at our shoes, baffled and stumped.
Then, out of embarrassment, we held hands and jumped.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
It seems to me that the only way Parliament can stop May taking us out of the EU now is to get a vote through Parliament revoking Article 50. Whether any MP wants to propose such a course is another matter. Who wants to be seen as the MP who proposed deliberately ignoring the will of the people expressed in a democratic vote?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:42:44 AM
It seems to me that the only way Parliament can stop May taking us out of the EU now is to get a vote through Parliament revoking Article 50. Whether any MP wants to propose such a course is another matter. Who wants to be seen as the MP who proposed deliberately ignoring the will of the people expressed in a democratic vote?

I can't say I've seen much of those sunlight uplands that people were promised....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:45:14 AM
EU re changes to backstop: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1090517326632550401
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:46:14 AM
Promises and reassurances.
https://twitter.com/RenierRobert/status/1090537853883437057


https://twitter.com/Happy39887283/status/1090531593582755840
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:54:58 AM
A range of comments I found interesting ...in no order.


Nina Schick
‏Verified account @NinaDSchick

It’s going well so far - Spain is lobbying furiously to put the question of Gibraltar back on the table should the WA be reopened. Other member states want to look again at fishing rights in UK waters.


John Simpson
‏Verified account @JohnSimpsonNews


When I was the BBC political editor, in the early 1980s, I was shocked by the ignorance of most MPs about the way the outside world worked. Judging from today's proceedings in Parliament, things don't seem to have changed much.


Peter Grant MP
‏Verified account @PeterGrantMP


Peter Grant MP Retweeted Jessica Elgot

Your reminder, as happens every time MPs vote on Brexit, that Tory MPs are allowed to change their minds from 2 weeks ago but 60 million people are not allowed to change their minds from over 2 years ago.


Peter Jukes
‏Verified account @peterjukes


1. Never call a referendum with a binary choice which actually has multiple answers.
2. Never start a clock on negotiations before you’ve worked out what you negotiating positions is.
3. Don’t expect your trading status to increase because you screwed up 1 and 2.


Scientists for EU
‏ @Scientists4EU
21h21 hours ago

US meat lobby "wants the sale of growth hormone-fed beef, currently banned in the UK and EU, to be allowed in the UK" post-Brexit.

So much control.



Yvette Cooper
‏Verified account @YvetteCooperMP

My speech from earlier on why No Deal & WTO tariffs would hit manufacturing, public services & hard pressed families - and why Govt needs to make sure we don’t end up with a No Deal cliff edge at end of March
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1090359099328475138

Two tweets on happily denying what Digby-Jones had said previously:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1090413046927970304
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 12:09:43 PM
I can't say I've seen much of those sunlight uplands that people were promised....

I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 12:30:16 PM
I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters.

I have no problem with people voting on what they believed to be the best option, for themselves, loved ones, country.

I have no problem with campaigners putting their best foot forward.

My problem is that they were deliberately fed a mixture of misleading and even Twilight Zone "alternative facts" to get them to vote the way they did.

Some percentage of the Leave population no doubt thought that the UK would be able to invest £350m per week in the NHS. If you work in the NHS and had been faced with trying to keep up standards despite cutbacks, or if you or a loved one had been ill and had a problem due to lack of funding, I can understand that that pulls on heartstrings and reason. Except that it was never true.

Is it undemocratic to ask people, now that more information is on the table, whether their views are the same 2 years later?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 12:41:29 PM
I have no problem with people voting on what they believed to be the best option, for themselves, loved ones, country.

I have no problem with campaigners putting their best foot forward.

My problem is that they were deliberately fed a mixture of misleading and even Twilight Zone "alternative facts" to get them to vote the way they did.

Some percentage of the Leave population no doubt thought that the UK would be able to invest £350m per week in the NHS. If you work in the NHS and had been faced with trying to keep up standards despite cutbacks, or if you or a loved one had been ill and had a problem due to lack of funding, I can understand that that pulls on heartstrings and reason. Except that it was never true.

Is it undemocratic to ask people, now that more information is on the table, whether their views are the same 2 years later?

As I expected given the EU intransigence, more and more people who originally voted remain say that they would now vote leave in any second referendum. Hardly surprising is it given the conduct and comments by senior EU officials?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 12:51:58 PM
As I expected given the EU intransigence, more and more people who originally voted remain say that they would now vote leave in any second referendum. Hardly surprising is it given the conduct and comments by senior EU officials?

Such as?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 01:01:51 PM
France is going to do anything to jeopardize expats bringing money into their country or the many French working in the UK.

Why would any country not want (legal) money coming into their country?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on January 30, 2019, 02:10:15 PM
A range of comments I found interesting ...in no order.


Nina Schick
‏Verified account @NinaDSchick

It’s going well so far - Spain is lobbying furiously to put the question of Gibraltar back on the table should the WA be reopened. Other member states want to look again at fishing rights in UK waters.


John Simpson
‏Verified account @JohnSimpsonNews


When I was the BBC political editor, in the early 1980s, I was shocked by the ignorance of most MPs about the way the outside world worked. Judging from today's proceedings in Parliament, things don't seem to have changed much.


Peter Grant MP
‏Verified account @PeterGrantMP


Peter Grant MP Retweeted Jessica Elgot

Your reminder, as happens every time MPs vote on Brexit, that Tory MPs are allowed to change their minds from 2 weeks ago but 60 million people are not allowed to change their minds from over 2 years ago.


Peter Jukes
‏Verified account @peterjukes


1. Never call a referendum with a binary choice which actually has multiple answers.
2. Never start a clock on negotiations before you’ve worked out what you negotiating positions is.
3. Don’t expect your trading status to increase because you screwed up 1 and 2.


Scientists for EU
‏ @Scientists4EU
21h21 hours ago

US meat lobby "wants the sale of growth hormone-fed beef, currently banned in the UK and EU, to be allowed in the UK" post-Brexit.

So much control.



Yvette Cooper
‏Verified account @YvetteCooperMP

My speech from earlier on why No Deal & WTO tariffs would hit manufacturing, public services & hard pressed families - and why Govt needs to make sure we don’t end up with a No Deal cliff edge at end of March
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1090359099328475138

Two tweets on happily denying what Digby-Jones had said previously:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1090413046927970304

I quite like Digby Jones.... I met him about 40 years ago before he made his mark...met him in a pub called..The Digby.. He wasn't allowed to speak and explain but he campaigned fir Brexit... So that makes me feel better... As he explained the Germans sell us a million cars, a year... Make all our trains... So they will want to trade with us and where the Germans lead others  will follow
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 02:57:34 PM
I quite like Digby Jones.... I met him about 40 years ago before he made his mark...met him in a pub called..The Digby.. He wasn't allowed to speak and explain but he campaigned fir Brexit... So that makes me feel better... As he explained the Germans sell us a million cars, a year... Make all our trains... So they will want to trade with us and where the Germans lead others  will follow

I listened to him last night and this morning.

So, he's gone from assuring everyone that not a single job would be lost, to now saying that people will be glad in 100 years' time that they'd got out... Not sure about anyone else, but I doubt that I'll be around to verify that.

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/801457523949715456/video/1
https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1090587682453868544

There have also been some odd clips last night or this am, in which he stated that the EU wouldn't let the UK
"leave". When asked, he kept dodging the issue: he made it sound as if the UK couldn't leave the EU, but the context was the backstop.

Couldn't make head nor tail of it.

NB

Here's one (interviewed by Andrew Neil).
https://twitter.com/GeoFreC/status/1090622606070505474

Hmm, no sorry, that's just a very short clip. I listened to a longer clip. He also refused to clarify the difference between the EU and the CU in the interview with Femi, posted earlier.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 03:33:56 PM
Here's another one.

Tuesday, November 27, 2018

Lord Digby Jones has said he will only support Theresa May's Brexit deal if the backstop clause "is revoked".

The cross-bench peer claimed that the backstop, which would keep the UK tied to the customs union, was not what leave voters wanted.
 
"Yes I am [supporting Brexit deal], with one exception, which is that I'm not going to vote for it in the Lords if we don't get that last little clause to move which says if we're still in the backstop as they call it, this thing that happens if we haven't sorted out Northern Ireland by the time the transition period ends, then the EU reserve the right to say when we can leave," he told Julia Hartley-Brewer.

Read more at https://talkradio.co.uk/news/lord-digby-jones-says-he-will-only-support-brexit-deal-if-backstop-clause-revoked-18112728968#WTbmGIG3chpjTlQt.99
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 03:44:50 PM
Unless this is incorrect, the EU (and May) want a backstop in the WA. Which it is.

It would come into effect in the event of a no-deal, or if no broad deal is agreed with the EU after the transition period - which can be extended once, if need be.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 30, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
Unless this is incorrect, the EU (and May) want a backstop in the WA. Which it is.

It would come into effect in the event of a no-deal, or if no broad deal is agreed with the EU after the transition period - which can be extended once, if need be.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404

Sorry Carana what is a WA?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:16:06 PM
Sorry Carana what is a WA?

Sorry, Withdrawal Agreement.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 04:32:27 PM
Such as?

Have you not heard the condescending comments they made about the UK and those who voted leave?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/849738/Brexit-news-EU-negotiator-Michel-Barnier-slammed-educate-Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/06/eu-attacks-on-chequers-plan-confused-claim-uk-brexit-negotiators

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-eu-customs-plan-northern-ireland-theresa-may-a8368101.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Have you not heard the condescending comments they made about the UK and those who voted leave?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/849738/Brexit-news-EU-negotiator-Michel-Barnier-slammed-educate-Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/06/eu-attacks-on-chequers-plan-confused-claim-uk-brexit-negotiators

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-eu-customs-plan-northern-ireland-theresa-may-a8368101.html

He didn't say those who voted Leave, but I'd need to hear the original.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:48:40 PM
Oh dear. Farage (and Bridgen yesterday) waffling about Article 24 of the GATT. Again.

My best guess is that their idea orginated from the ERG. All the actual WTO trade negotiators that I read have been banging their heads trying to point out that their understanding is simply wrong. It came up again yesterday evening in the Commons and Stephen Baker pointed out that their understanding of it was wrong.

But it seems to be a cornerstone of how they think they can sail with a no-deal exit.


https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1090641013570502657

I have more links if anyone is really interested.

Sir Ivan Rogers tries to explain...
https://twitter.com/BackTheMacUK/status/1090642385435009025
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 30, 2019, 05:44:05 PM
I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters.
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 06:31:29 PM
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer.

It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 30, 2019, 06:43:44 PM
It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.
It’s a bit more complex than the Poll Tax plus no one voted for that one way or the other.  It did cause riots however, perhaps we have those to look forward to later in the year.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 07:03:19 PM
It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.

A problem is that, once people had experienced the poll tax and expressed their disagreement with it, it was scrapped and life went back to normal.

With Brexit, there won't be any going back. Not for a generation or more and not with the concessions that the UK has had so far.

JRM & co. insist that a no-deal is nothing to worry about, but still don't grasp that Article 24 won't apply, but which they seem to be counting on. And those who think the UK can simply walk away from their side of the divorce bill (the EU also has obligations to fulfill towards the UK) and retain any sort of credibility are dreaming. IMO.

And then there are those who advocate "technological" solutions to the Irish border, but are incapable of explaining what they might be and how they might work. From everything I've read so far, that may not be surprising as they don't exist
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 07:59:21 PM
It’s a bit more complex than the Poll Tax plus no one voted for that one way or the other.  It did cause riots however, perhaps we have those to look forward to later in the year.

A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 08:22:27 PM
A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .

She made me thankful for the House of Lords. I had three children at Secondary school and as it was over 3 miles away a free bus was provided. Her government decided to scrap that and make parents pay for the bus. It was quite a chunk for 3 children so I was grateful when the Lords refused to pass it. Probably because a lot of their employees would have been affected, but I was still grateful.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 08:32:59 PM
She made me thankful for the House of Lords. I had three children at Secondary school and as it was over 3 miles away a free bus was provided. Her government decided to scrap that and make parents pay for the bus. It was quite a chunk for 3 children so I was grateful when the Lords refused to pass it. Probably because a lot of their employees would have been affected, but I was still grateful.

I don't remember that, probably because it didn't apply here or possibly because my three had a ten minute walk to school.
I only know that the lovely prayer of St. Francis has never had the same resonance since her usage of it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 08:45:19 PM
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer.

People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
A problem is that, once people had experienced the poll tax and expressed their disagreement with it, it was scrapped and life went back to normal.

With Brexit, there won't be any going back. Not for a generation or more and not with the concessions that the UK has had so far.

JRM & co. insist that a no-deal is nothing to worry about, but still don't grasp that Article 24 won't apply, but which they seem to be counting on. And those who think the UK can simply walk away from their side of the divorce bill (the EU also has obligations to fulfill towards the UK) and retain any sort of credibility are dreaming. IMO.

And then there are those who advocate "technological" solutions to the Irish border, but are incapable of explaining what they might be and how they might work. From everything I've read so far, that may not be surprising as they don't exist

A VAT checking system already operates between N Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so no real problem in extending it.  The entire 'backstop' shenanigan is a false flag which suits Dublin as the UK leaving the EU will have serious consequences for Ireland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!

Have you any concerns about leaving the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 30, 2019, 09:08:11 PM
People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!
End off (sic) what?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
Have you any concerns about leaving the EU?

None whatsoever.  No pain no gain they say.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 09:30:50 PM
None whatsoever.  No pain no gain they say.

Must be great having no doubts.
What makes you feel so confident?
You seem to have an antipathy to anything European.?
Is that what gives you the self assuredness that the pain will be worthwhile?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 30, 2019, 09:58:11 PM
After the fiasco in Parliament last night I see a 'No Deal' Brexit as a distinct possibility now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
After the fiasco in Parliament last night I see a 'No Deal' Brexit as a distinct possibility now.

Some say they are playing into May's hands. She has just gained more time to mess around while a no-deal exit gets closer all the time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 10:26:32 PM
Some say they are playing into May's hands. She has just gained more time to mess around while a no-deal exit gets closer all the time.

Yes, possibly that is what is most desired by Brexiteers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 08:01:45 AM
Yes, possibly that is what is most desired by Brexiteers.

Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 08:16:45 AM

De Galle was right.  Britain should never have joined.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 31, 2019, 08:17:00 AM
Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.
What about those who want to leave with no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 08:40:58 AM
Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.

Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence, why the majority in both those countries voted to remain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence.why the majority in both those.countries voted to remain.

The majority in your country voted to remain part of the UK, so it's time to accept that's your position and that not all Scotland's people agree with you.





Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 10:10:16 AM
The majority in your country voted to remain part of the UK, so it's time to accept that's your position and that not all Scotland's people agree with you.

Are you telling me I have no right to express my own opinion?
Stripped of "nationhood" by your goodself and now being told to accept a "position" which many others disagree with and which certainly could change.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
Are you telling me I have no right to express my own opinion?
Stripped of "nationhood" by your goodself and now being told to accept a "position" which many others disagree with and which certainly could change.

Sorry, I didn't reaise you were expressing your own opinion. In my opinion your post seemed to be suggesting that you were expressing the views of all your fellow Scots.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 10:34:18 AM
Sorry, I didn't reaise you were expressing your own opinion. In my opinion your post seemed to be suggesting that you were expressing the views of all your fellow Scots.

Just shows how mistaken your opinion can sometimes be.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
Just shows how mistaken your opinion can sometimes be.

Or how misleading your posts can be......
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 03:11:04 PM
A VAT checking system already operates between N Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so no real problem in extending it.  The entire 'backstop' shenanigan is a false flag which suits Dublin as the UK leaving the EU will have serious consequences for Ireland.

It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 31, 2019, 03:30:44 PM
It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.

This already goes on and lots more besides. People near the border buy their goods and services from whichever side of the border is cheapest.  Meat and fuels are regularly smuggled across the border by criminal gangs associated with former prescribed organisations and that will continue regardless of BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .

Dreadful? in what way.

Juts because it was imposed in an disgraceful way by MT does not make it a bad tax infact I would vote for it now if done properly.

Poll tax was a tax on each individual living in an accomodation. if 5 people over working age lived in a house then fve people would be responsible for their share. The two things I objected to was : the way it was imposed without consultation and proper education as to how it worked.
the second thing was many women who were stay at home mums were chased for this tax if their husbands refused to pay it and spent it on drink/drugs/gambling. therefore it was not an individual taxt at all as described.

What we have now is evil.  bedroom tax?  what if the bedrooms are empty? not enough one bedroom homes are available people suffered greatly.

and what about the widow/er on a pension- who lives alone- paying just 25%less than a family of 5 high earners ? hmm yeah thanks for voting for that much much better.eh?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Dreadful? in what way.

Juts because it was imposed in an disgraceful way by MT does not make it a bad tax infact I would vote for it now if done properly.

Poll tax was a tax on each individual living in an accomodation. if 5 people over working age lived in a house then fve people would be responsible for their share. The two things I objected to was : the way it was imposed without consultation and proper education as to how it worked.
the second thing was many women who were stay at home mums were chased for this tax if their husbands refused to pay it and spent it on drink/drugs/gambling. therefore it was not an individual taxt at all as described.

What we have now is evil.  bedroom tax?  what if the bedrooms are empty? not enough one bedroom homes are available people suffered greatly.

and what about the widow/er on a pension- who lives alone- paying just 25%less than a family of 5 high earners ? hmm yeah thanks for voting for that much much better.eh?

Your usual presumptive rant.
I assume you think it fair that our son who was a student at the time had to pay a sizeable portion of the poll tax and that people  on moderate incomes paid the same as high earners.
As far as I am aware there is no bedroom tax in Scotland.
A local income tax would in my opinion be a fairer action.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 03:46:02 PM
It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.

Regulatory alignment wouldn't be a problem for the time being.  Our manufacturing has been aligned with the EU for years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
This already goes on and lots more besides. People near the border buy their goods and services from whichever side of the border is cheapest.  Meat and fuels are regularly smuggled across the border by criminal gangs associated with former prescribed organisations and that will continue regardless of BREXIT.

This is undoubtedly true.  But hardly in massive quantities, and probably won't be.

I don't know what is to be done about The Border between North and South Ireland, but Karma springs to my mind.  I think that The North should deal with this.  It is in fact their problem.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 03:48:23 PM
Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence, why the majority in both those countries voted to remain.

The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 

I am not sure that Irish Voters have much to do with this, although I am half Southern Irish with a passion for Scotland. 

But then I don't need to have a passion for Southern Ireland.  They have sorted their own problems.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 04:23:31 PM
I am not sure that Irish Voters have much to do with this, although I am half Southern Irish with a passion for Scotland. 

But then I don't need to have a passion for Southern Ireland.  They have sorted their own problems.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is only one of the misleading statements.
Good luck with responding to the post.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is indicative of the attitude of some here  in Scotland who do not like the independence movement, not for political reasons but for entirely different reasons.
I've seen quite enough of Mistaken posts to know exactly her agenda.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 04:27:52 PM
Regulatory alignment wouldn't be a problem for the time being.  Our manufacturing has been aligned with the EU for years.

So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 04:37:47 PM
So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/

The country of origin would still be where we imported it from unless you are talking about companies committing fraud.  If they were going to commit a fraud of that type they probably would be trying to pass off horse as beef or something equally illegal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 04:57:51 PM
The country of origin would still be where we imported it from unless you are talking about companies committing fraud.  If they were going to commit a fraud of that type they probably would be trying to pass off horse as beef or something equally illegal.

I expect most manufacturers / exporters would want to keep to EU rules, but the EU would presumably still want reassurance. It the situation were another country leaving, presumably the UK would also want a similar reassurance that dodgy / banned goods weren't sneaking in. More controls / paperwork than now, I would think, which takes us back to the backstop conundrum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 05:33:13 PM
So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/

Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is only one of the misleading statements.
Good luck with responding to the post.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is indicative of the attitude of some here  in Scotland who do not like the independence movement, not for political reasons but for entirely different reasons.
I've seen quite enough of Mistaken posts to know exactly her agenda.

Trying to belittle me just doesn't work. Save for  the playground.

I have no agenda I voted with a concience and I am entitld to do so. As the mjority who cared did! 

It is the Irish catholics  who hate the English and that influence was brought across the Irish sea  when the troubles were in full swing.

 I have a distrust and dislike of all religions which preach hatred and is complicit in murder/torture rape or men women and children who pay into the coffers for the privelidged pampered holy people- on behalf of God ofcourse.

I see your fustration at not being able to repond to my posts in an adult manner.  oh and so can many others.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 05:57:56 PM
Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.

The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:12:52 PM
Trying to belittle me just doesn't work. Save for  the playground.

I have no agenda I voted with a concience and I am entitld to do so. As the mjority who cared did! 

It is the Irish catholics  who hate the English and that influence was brought across the Irish sea  when the troubles were in full swing.

 I have a distrust and dislike of all religions which preach hatred and is complicit in murder/torture rape or men women and children who pay into the coffers for the privelidged pampered holy people- on behalf of God ofcourse.

I see your fustration at not being able to repond to my posts in an adult manner.  oh and so can many others.

And yet again your bigotry is shining brightly  and clearly for all to see.

Why you have chosen to bring into the discussion the "hatred of the English " is beyond me.
What on earth the  question of Catholic 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters has to do with the independence movement is irrelevant.
Seeking independence has nothing to do with hatred of anyone.

It is a pity you have chosen to sully this thread with your unpleasant and bigoted views.
As I have said your agenda is all too clear.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 06:21:02 PM
Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.

Not quite sure I understand how that market works.

Sheep

    Ireland exported 13,000 tonnes of sheep meat to the UK in 2016.
    In the UK market, almost 90% of UK lamb imports come from outside the EU (New Zealand and Australia), while UK exports go predominantly to four EU Member States, with France accounting for 50% of these.
    The key issue for the sheep sector will be the decisions taken on the division of the large EU TRQ for New Zealand lamb– any displacement of NZ lamb imports, which currently go to the UK market, could have a negative impact on the overall value of the EU lamb market.

https://www.ifa.ie/brexit/brexit-ireland/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!

I remember the days when the Bus would stop to get some sheep or other off the road.  There was nothing strange about that.  I can't remember if the Bus was late.  It didn't matter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 06:49:12 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.

Where did the Whiskey come from?  You never can tell these days.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 31, 2019, 06:51:04 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.
In 2015 29% of food consumed in the UK came from the EU, 19% from the rest of the world put together.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:56:00 PM
Where did the Whiskey come from?  You never can tell these days.

What we have in the house is definitely Scotch Whisky.
I don't like it but can enjoy  a Glayva.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:59:17 PM
In 2015 29% of food consumed in the UK came from the EU, 19% from the rest of the world put together.

It's the Italian food and wine which I will be stockpiling @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 07:32:04 PM
What we have in the house is definitely Scotch Whisky.
I don't like it but can enjoy  a Glayva.

Don't worry about it.  I'll drink yours.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
It's the Italian food and wine which I will be stockpiling @)(++(*

You want some Pasta?  I've got loads of it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!

I was puzzled in the Hebrides by the sheep going where they liked despite being able to see a lot of fencing. Someone said the fences were erected because they were a condition of getting some grant or other. The cattle wandered too. Some days the children came home from school at a very high speed when the local 'tup' was out and about.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 07:59:52 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.

Fresh fruit  and veg might be a problem until late spring, but then people have got spoilt with a wide array to choose from.

If the grocery retailers are expressing concern, it may not be just about that, but general household stuff. I'm not sure what is totally produced in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 08:29:16 PM
The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 

However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 08:46:41 PM
Fresh fruit  and veg might be a problem until late spring, but then people have got spoilt with a wide array to choose from.

If the grocery retailers are expressing concern, it may not be just about that, but general household stuff. I'm not sure what is totally produced in the UK.
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.


 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 09:04:41 PM
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.

Not just that it's an excuse, in a no-deal scenario it will cost the the supply chain more, plus a potential further downfall in the £.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 11:15:04 PM
However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?

But Scotland would have to leave the EU if it voted for independence.  I remember it very clearly with the EU spokesman saying that Scotland would have to apply to join as a seperete country.

Don't you Carana?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9899322/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 11:32:46 PM
But Scotland would have to leave the EU if it voted for independence.  I remember it very clearly with the EU spokesman saying that Scotland would have to apply to join as a seperete country.

Don't you Carana?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9899322/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html

I remembered having read that (or a similar article) after I'd posted. :) Thanks for the article. Interesting to read it again.

Yes, it makes sense that it would have to go through the whole process.

Another thought is how would a border between Scotland and whatever else is left of the UK work?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 11:40:30 PM
Oh dear. Raab (who admitted that he hadn't realised how important the Dover-Calais trading route was) has now admitted he hasn't read all of the 35-page Good Friday Agreement.

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1090918652101226496
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 01, 2019, 12:04:55 AM
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 01, 2019, 07:21:58 AM
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.

Supermarkets do this by screwing the prices from farmers and other suppliers down as and when they wish to.

By the way perhaps we could all eat the food that goes to waste instead of importing some from the EU.

This is a crying shame IMO

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/fruit-vegetables-food-waste-farms-uk-birmingham-manchester-feedback-a8220171.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 08:49:55 AM
Not just that it's an excuse, in a no-deal scenario it will cost the the supply chain more, plus a potential further downfall in the £.

I can't imagine the supermarkets seperating the EU and British fruit and veg and selling them at different prices. I can imagine them raising all the prices to recoup any extra costs they have to pay. .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.

Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?

I do not know one person who knows their EU MP. I know a great many people.

 However IF it is any consolation to your cause, be assured that the Scottish people have not been marching with claymores to downing street demanding independance from England- quite the contrary  they voted to stay.

 Now within that context the agreement was with regards to UK matters the descision would be put to UK voters, which it was. Again- I see no surge of English hatred, apart from some quarters, marching to downing street with claymore in hand or even a mandate  demanding remain in EU and leave UK.

Now can we please have a realistic arguement as to how  Scotland circumnavigates English air space and waters to get to the EU parliament and buy/sell  goods.

Carana?   



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 01:06:17 PM
I do not know one person who knows their EU MP. I know a great many people.

 However IF it is any consolation to your cause, be assured that the Scottish people have not been marching with claymores to downing street demanding independance from England- quite the contrary  they voted to stay.

 Now within that context the agreement was with regards to UK matters the descision would be put to UK voters, which it was. Again- I see no surge of English hatred, apart from some quarters, marching to downing street with claymore in hand or even a mandate  demanding remain in EU and leave UK.

Now can we please have a realistic arguement as to how  Scotland circumnavigates English air space and waters to get to the EU parliament and buy/sell  goods.

Carana?

Scotland has quite a few ports, including Grangemouth.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-poses-significant-questions-for-scotland-s-ports-1-4693642

It also has quite a few aiports.

I'm not advocating one way or the other re Scotland and independence. I think it would be complicated in reality, and I have yet to note a single advantage of Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 01, 2019, 02:52:23 PM
Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.
Of course fried potato chips and baked beans packed with salt and sugar are health foods, akin to fresh fruit and veg, silly me.  Wishing German companies Aldi and Lidl all the best post-Brexit in keeping their prices low, and yes they are good examples of exactly what I meant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 07:14:49 PM
The body needs salt and sugar  it is what we need to survive actually. if you ever have  'the runs' or hangover this is what you require to take with water to rehydrate.

Ask your dentist about the sugar and acid in fresh friuts. stips the enamel off. Veg is covered in pesticides...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 07:39:34 PM
Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.

Aldi and lidl are interesting cases...neither are public companies...the other supermarkets are and have to make a profit for their shareholders,,...Aldi and lidl are family owned and can operate at a loss to build market share...

Beans and chips is a very poor diet and to promote them as part of our 5 a day is a bit silly...but should we expect anything less...from a die hard sceptic
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 07:41:27 PM
The body needs salt and sugar  it is what we need to survive actually. if you ever have  'the runs' or hangover this is what you require to take with water to rehydrate.

Ask your dentist about the sugar and acid in fresh friuts. stips the enamel off. Veg is covered in pesticides...

sugar in friuts does not strip of any enamel
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 07:52:23 PM
sugar in friuts does not strip of any enamel

What does strip the enamel off teeth?
I'm too old to be bothered but one of the family does seem concerned about this.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 08:00:22 PM
What does strip the enamel off teeth?
I'm too old to be bothered but one of the family does seem concerned about this.

fruit...fruit squash...fizzy drinks...diet fizzzy drinks ...acid reflux...acid is the new sugar
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:07:01 PM
fruit...fruit squash...fizzy drinks...diet fizzzy drinks ...acid reflux...acid is the new sugar

Could be the diet fizzy drinks  for said family member.

Thankfully for me, no mention of wine? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Davel on February 01, 2019, 08:11:14 PM
Could be the diet fizzy drinks  for said family member.

Thankfully for me, no mention of wine? @)(++(*

wine is a cause too....but we dont drink wine all day every day ,,...as some do diet coke...cider is another cause
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 08:27:20 PM
Aldi and lidl are interesting cases...neither are public companies...the other supermarkets are and have to make a profit for their shareholders,,...Aldi and lidl are family owned and can operate at a loss to build market share...

Beans and chips is a very poor diet and to promote them as part of our 5 a day is a bit silly...but should we expect anything less...from a die hard sceptic

Whatever their background their strategy is working.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2692087/CITY-FOCUS-How-big-grocers-tough-time-Mail-mans-exclusive-look-Aldi-UK.html

I think you misunderstood me. Did you think I was advocating a diet of just chips and beans? I wasn't. What I was saying is that they do provide nutrients and are a perfectly acceptable part of our diets. It's a fact that baked beans count as one of the five a day, did you not know that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:36:03 PM
Whatever their background their strategy is working.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2692087/CITY-FOCUS-How-big-grocers-tough-time-Mail-mans-exclusive-look-Aldi-UK.html

I think you misunderstood me. Did you think I was advocating a diet of just chips and beans? I wasn't. What I was saying is that they do provide nutrients and are a perfectly acceptable part of our diets. It's a fact that baked beans count as one of the five a day, did you not know that?

I don't like either of them.
Until someone else orders chips, then I will steal a few. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 01, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:44:54 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*

No concerns at all?

If you have, probably wiling to face those concerns in the same way I would for independence?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 08:56:04 PM
I really don't get it.

There are people who can't afford the basics of life, and some are scroungers. It's up to the authorities to work out who are really in need and who are scroungers.

But how has the  Corbyn faction actually provided an alternative, workable plan to the Brexit mess? I haven't come across one.

What concrete plan have  the members of the Euro-sceptic "European Research Group" (ERG), which most of the far-right faction of the Conservatives appear to belong to, offered that is not based on fantasy as opposed to reality? I haven't found anything viable in that direction either.

The latter do keep repeating the myth of a provision in the WTO rulebook which wouldn't apply (according to nearly every WTO / legal eagle that I've come across who has attempted to explain this. Ad nauseum).

With all this Brexit mess, is anyone (of either party) actually concentrating on issues that affect people here and now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 01, 2019, 11:39:54 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

Sounds quite plausible to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on February 02, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

Rumbles in Ireland ... rumbles in Gibraltar ... do we have any fisheries protection vessels left to patrol our waters?All predictable and much more to be added as reality bites home ... but Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street I cannot envisage.

I don't think the electorate will contemplate promoting him from being the most (in my opinion) inept leader of HM Opposition ever to Prime Minister ... it just is not going to happen.

Hung parliaments and civil unrest look most likely to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 11:59:45 AM
Rumbles in Ireland ... rumbles in Gibraltar ... do we have any fisheries protection vessels left to patrol our waters?All predictable and much more to be added as reality bites home ... but Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street I cannot envisage.

I don't think the electorate will contemplate promoting him from being the most (in my opinion) inept leader of HM Opposition ever to Prime Minister ... it just is not going to happen.

Hung parliaments and civil unrest look most likely to me.

From what I'm reading / hearing, both parties are split. Not sure what the solution is.

As I've said before, there is no longer just a horizontal plane (left-right), but also a vertical one (Remain or Leave).

Bannon's dream come true.

And why DOES RT's darling, Farage, get so much airtime?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 01:07:30 PM
From what I'm reading / hearing, both parties are split. Not sure what the solution is.

As I've said before, there is no longer just a horizontal plane (left-right), but also a vertical one (Remain or Leave).

Bannon's dream come true.

And why DOES RT's darling, Farage, get so much airtime?

Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 02, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work

The London based MSM had us all believing that any referendum would be defeated, in fact, didn't Farage nearly throw in the towel at the twelfth hour because he thought it was lost but the Labour voters in the Midlands and elsewhere voted to leave in the end and sealed the deal.  Cameron had to go, he was a liability.

For once, people power in the regions had defeated the London elitism which has so destroyed our democracy in recent years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 02:33:17 PM
The London based MSM had us all believing that any referendum would be defeated, in fact, didn't Farage nearly throw in the towel at the twelfth hour because he thought it was lost but the Labour voters in the Midlands and elsewhere voted to leave in the end and sealed the deal.  Cameron had to go, he was a liability.

For once, people power in the regions had defeated the London elitism which has so destroyed our democracy in recent years.

Someone attempting to explain at the end of 2017 how these 'elites' think and why. I see no change since, they atill think they're superior;


What explains the idiocy of the liberal elite? It’s their education


it has struggled to understand those strange creatures: ordinary people.

The elite is bemused by what drives these people to make perverse decisions about Brexit......Are they racist, narrow-minded or just stupid? Whatever the reason, ordinary people have frankly been a disappointment.

Why do lawyers, churchmen, the BBC and, indeed, most educated people support the EU — an organisation as saturated with smug self-righteousness as it is with corruption; one which created the euro, which in turn has caused millions of people to be unemployed; an organisation which combines a yawning democratic deficit with incompetence over immigration and economic growth?

Let’s try to understand why members of the elite get so cross when others don’t take the same view of Brexit...as they do.....People talk of a culture of entitlement among those who live on benefits. But the elite has its own entitlement culture. They think that because they studied English literature at Durham they understand the world better than a plumber in Croydon. They think they are superior and therefore their view should prevail. They also think they are morally superior
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/what-explains-the-idiocy-of-the-liberal-elite-its-their-education/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 03:03:58 PM

Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 03:06:38 PM
Those who hedged funds made a fortune. Farage denies he was one of them.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/26/nigel-farage-remain-won-brexit-bloomberg


Perhaps he didn't. But what was he grinning about in this photo showing the £ in freefall?
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/335am-june-24-2016-sterling-is-in-freefall-and-nigel-farage-is-beaming-picture-exclusive-1-5580360
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 02, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 02, 2019, 04:18:40 PM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

 8(8-)) 8(8-))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.

Cameron possibly felt boosted by the Scottish ref to remain in the UK... and the idea that he could squash the far right in the part via another ref may have gone to his head.

I find it incredible how many politicians assured the people of sunny uplands and then flat out denied it once reality started to set in.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 05:10:20 PM
I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.

Absolutely right, Angelo.

After seeing the appalling carry on of the last couple of years, I no longer care anymore.  I have dealt with the falling Pound for the last more than ten years.  The loss of my Winter Fuel Allowance.  And the joke that Britain has increasingly become.  And I expect to go on dealing with these things.

Much as some of you might not like it, The Euro is absolutely fine.  Food and Amenities here are not rising at an alarming rate.  And my Electricity and Water, along with House Taxes are still cheeper than in Britain, as is my Car and House Insurance.

Europe will have to deal with their poorer members.  Some of these poorer Countries have Pensions that I can only dream of.  And they are wasting money in the name of popularity.

My son needs a Cardiogram for a work related issue. He is not ill.  He turned up at the Doctor's Surgery unannounced yesterday as he needed a referral.   He was seen immediately.  He has an appointment at the local hospital in eight days time.
I can't help wondering just who has got this right.

Britain is the problem.  Britain gave up its own autonomy.  British Politicians despise you and treat you all like Pawns in their own little Chess Game while vying for who is going to be the next President of Europe.

Sorry if this is a bit convoluted, and a bit halfy halfy.  I can see the flaws in my argument.  But I did so want Britain to be its own Country again.  Now, I don't care anymore.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:12:01 PM
I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.

Agree on the whole. But Wales voted Leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 05:15:12 PM
Agree on the whole. But Wales voted Leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

Wales never did know what it was doing.  Their National Health System is the worst in Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:55:42 PM
Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work

He publicly stated on TV that he wanted the whole of Europe to be out of the EU. So far, that sounds quite Bannonish to me.

IMO, if certain powers have a strategic plan that involves creating chaos in Europe, then starting with the UK makes sense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
I expect most of us have seen the numerous anti-EU tabloid headlines over the years (or rather decades), with wild stories such as BoJo's bendy banana myth (I created a thread with a list of many of them).

IMO, it's dangerous to underestimate how this propagan