UK Justice Forum

Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => The Bain family killings occurred in Dunedin, New Zealand, in 1994. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 27, 2017, 03:19:25 PM

Title: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 27, 2017, 03:19:25 PM
This is the story of a mass-murder that divided a nation.  A story that began in a rickety old home on a cold June morning in 1994, when five members of a seemingly ordinary New Zealand family were gunned down. There were two suspects.

One lay dead from a single bullet to his head. The other was the only survivor: David Bain. Since then the country has been divided as to who killed the Bain family? David Bain or his father Robin?



Here's an account of the family by Robin Bain's brother:

http://www.noted.co.nz/archive/listener-nz-2009/robin-was-no-killer-my-brothers-life/

Sounds rather sanitised compared with other accounts of marital disharmony; RB banished to live in a campervan at the bottom of the garden; 65 Every St a complete pigsty; claims that RB was depressed and having an incestuous relationship with LB who was a sex worker.  Surely not your average family in NZ?  Think the brother must have od on The Waltons.

The brother seems to think the fact RB was a Christian precludes him from any sort of wrongdoing:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690575/Pope-Francis-admits-two-cent-Roman-Catholic-priests-paedophiles-interview-Italian-newspaper.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/nuns-abused-hundreds-of-children-1171988.html 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/13614/robin-bain-depressed-for-years,-trial-told 

Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.


169
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 28, 2017, 06:10:25 AM
Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.

Robin Bain was a teacher, therefore capable of handwriting a note. So why waste time booting up a computer to type that curiously-worded message before his son returned?  To conceal its author's true identity, maybe?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 30, 2017, 07:52:57 AM
Note in the article RB was into computers/IT so maybe he did leave the message: 'You're the only one who deserves to live'!

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible but don't know enough to have any strong opinions.
Robin Bain was a teacher, therefore capable of handwriting a note. So why waste time booting up a computer to type that curiously-worded message before his son returned?  To conceal its author's true identity, maybe?
Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on July 30, 2017, 12:48:38 PM
Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!
Why this why that.

I listened to the last episode of Black Hands.
Van Beynen claims it was a careful plan but that now Bain has blocked his memory of it. I can't imagine blocking the memory of constructing a careful plan over weeks when the outcome is your family is dead as planned.
He claims that David shot Robin from behind the curtain.
However we know with certainty the silencer was touching Robin's temple as the single shot was fired, this is an immutable data point.

What plan could count on Robin being close to the curtain and the single shot replicating a suicide trajectory?

This podcast series is a disgrace, Van Beynen should be locked up with some rocket scientists and aircraft engineers who must show their workings to make things safely airborne.

However in the comments section all 28 odd congratulate Van Beynen on solving it, and are incredulous that anyone could see it otherwise. This tells me something, but that something is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
Robin Bain shot the family, because he had blood on his hands at morning prayer, uncontested, and it was a contact wound, uncontested, and the trajectory was compatible with the most comfortable suicide pose, contested only by those who believe a right hander naturally picks up an object they will direct at themselves with the left hand.

He also makes the odd claim David's plan failed only because younger brother Stephen woke during the massacre so framing dad was compromised.
Jesus wept, who expects to blunder round a house with a gun and not wake one of the undead?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 31, 2017, 02:47:54 PM
Then there's David Bain's bloodsoaked opera gloves discovered under his brother's bed, and lens from the broken frame which David Bain wore, found in the same room, (why would Robin Bain go to the trouble of wearing his son's new gloves if he intended to commit suicide?); the undone rifle trigger lock whose key location was known only to David Bain; the bloody footprint stains in the hallway which he failed to notice on his way downstairs to wash his bloodstained pullover; and to cap it all, that ludicrously contrived 111 call made some 25 minutes! after he arrived home without noticing anything untoward had happened!   Even the call recipient sounded incredulous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

Easier than solving a game of Cluedo!

DB was found not guilty at his retrial in 2009.  He has since received nearly 925,000 NZ dollars ostensibly to cover legal fees! 

The points you raise above can easily be argued against:

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/309946/david-bain-denied-compensation
 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 31, 2017, 03:17:48 PM
Why this why that.

I listened to the last episode of Black Hands.
Van Beynen claims it was a careful plan but that now Bain has blocked his memory of it. I can't imagine blocking the memory of constructing a careful plan over weeks when the outcome is your family is dead as planned.
He claims that David shot Robin from behind the curtain.
However we know with certainty the silencer was touching Robin's temple as the single shot was fired, this is an immutable data point.

What plan could count on Robin being close to the curtain and the single shot replicating a suicide trajectory?

This podcast series is a disgrace, Van Beynen should be locked up with some rocket scientists and aircraft engineers who must show their workings to make things safely airborne.

However in the comments section all 28 odd congratulate Van Beynen on solving it, and are incredulous that anyone could see it otherwise. This tells me something, but that something is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
Robin Bain shot the family, because he had blood on his hands at morning prayer, uncontested, and it was a contact wound, uncontested, and the trajectory was compatible with the most comfortable suicide pose, contested only by those who believe a right hander naturally picks up an object they will direct at themselves with the left hand.

He also makes the odd claim David's plan failed only because younger brother Stephen woke during the massacre so framing dad was compromised.
Jesus wept, who expects to blunder round a house with a gun and not wake one of the undead?

Imo wherever you find relgious themes playing out, other than the benign eg those that flock to church on a Sunday, you will find dysfunction and mental illness. 

Religion formed part of these cases.  RB praying.  SC with the bible in close proximity to her body although imo this was nothing to do with SC or JB but more than likely came to be as a result of June walking around the bed clutching her bible and dropping it.       
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 31, 2017, 06:55:23 PM
Imo wherever you find relgious themes playing out, other than the benign eg those that flock to church on a Sunday, you will find dysfunction and mental illness. 

Religion formed part of these cases.  RB praying.  SC with the bible in close proximity to her body although imo this was nothing to do with SC or JB but more than likely came to be as a result of June walking around the bed clutching her bible and dropping it.       

Explain David Bain's blood-soaked opera gloves hidden under Stephen's bed, Holly.  Surely you don't think Bain senior would actually go to the trouble of searching for and wearing them to prevent fingerprints, if he intended to commit suicide?!!!

Or Bain's various fits which first responders to the scene and even his jailer friend later noted and dismissed as fake. Listen to the Episode Four video of Graeme Stanley recalling his odd behaviour...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/)

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 31, 2017, 08:38:19 PM
Given the rifle belonged to DB why would he worry about fingerprints if he was the perp?  Why would he choose white opera gloves?  He had an early morning paper round and the murders occured during the winter months so I'm assuming he had winter gloves?  Were the gloves checked for gsr and other debris?  Were the gloves "hidden"?  The blood stains are described as "smears" so maybe RB picked them up to wipe something? 

I'll listen to the "odd behaviour" later but I see the same thing in all these cases and I don't consider it evidence of anything.  Blimey if I found myself charged with some crime I can hear it all now. "She was a bit odd...she called herself Naughty Nun on an internet forum dedicated to debating the case of Jeremy Bamber.  Then she was banned and reinvented herself as Holly Goodhead on another forum where she spent hours posting about Jeremy Bamber.  She was adopted too!  Says it all really.  Must be guilty.  I only wish we could find a way of circumventing the legal process.  We all know she's guilty and it would save the state thousands of pounds".   8(8-))

The fact remains that it's inconceivable why Robin Bain should have worn his son's new opera gloves, if he intended to suicide after killing them all!  Why would RB search them out in David's room just to wipe the rifle when there was plenty of bedding, clothes, towels, etc. to hand, lying around the house?  In my opinion, DB obviously didn't expect any fierce resistance from his younger brother and his gloves becoming heavily blood-soaked.

They were found under the bed...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed)

ETA: the glove I posted in the 2nd photo doesn't appear to be like those in the 1st, so deleted it.  &%+((£
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 31, 2017, 08:53:04 PM
The fact remains that it's inconceivable why Robin Bain should have worn his son's new opera gloves, if he intended to suicide after killing them all!  Why would RB search them out in David's room just to wipe the rifle when there was plenty of bedding, clothes, towels, etc. to hand, lying around the house?  In my opinion, DB obviously didn't expect any fierce resistance from his younger brother and his gloves becoming heavily blood-soaked.

They were found under the bed...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2296381/Bloodied-gloves-found-under-Stephens-bed)

ETA: the glove I posted in the 2nd photo doesn't appear to be like those in the 1st, so deleted it.  &%+((£

From the following doc page 133 and 134

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

2.
Crown Reliance On David Bain’s Opera Gloves Found In Stephen’s Room

443.
Det. Sgt Weir also found two “opera” gloves in Stephen’s bedroom smeared with
Stephen’s blood.  The Court of Appeal considered the bloodied gloves provided “support” for
the guilty verdict (para. 166).  The Crown Law Office submits that the only rational explanation
for the presence of these gloves is that the killer wore them “to avoid leaving fingerprints”
and that Robin, having decided to commit suicide, had no need for such concealment.  Of
course in the nature of these events, it cannot be said
when Robin decided to take his own life. 
It may have been long premeditated.  It may have been in the agony of a killing spree.   

444.
David Bain has no explanation for how the gloves got to Stephen’s room but suggests
Stephen could “quite possibly” have borrowed them at an earlier date (“’cos he was well
- known for coming into, and borrowing stuff of mine just because he looked up to me as his big
brother.  He liked getting dressed up in the things that I had.”)
However the appearance of  the gloves in the photographs clearly suggests some involvement in the fight.

445.
The important point is that there is no evidence linking the gloves to David at any
relevant time except through ownership which, as the Crown properly argued in the case of
Margaret’s spectacles, is irrelevant.  Robin’s hand is smaller than David’s.  A smaller hand can fit
in a larger glove.

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 31, 2017, 09:09:07 PM
From the following doc page 133 and 134

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf (https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf)

2.
Crown Reliance On David Bain’s Opera Gloves Found In Stephen’s Room

443.
Det. Sgt Weir also found two “opera” gloves in Stephen’s bedroom smeared with
Stephen’s blood.  The Court of Appeal considered the bloodied gloves provided “support” for
the guilty verdict (para. 166).  The Crown Law Office submits that the only rational explanation
for the presence of these gloves is that the killer wore them “to avoid leaving fingerprints”
and that Robin, having decided to commit suicide, had no need for such concealment.  Of
course in the nature of these events, it cannot be said
when Robin decided to take his own life. 
It may have been long premeditated.  It may have been in the agony of a killing spree.   

444.
David Bain has no explanation for how the gloves got to Stephen’s room but suggests
Stephen could “quite possibly” have borrowed them at an earlier date (“’cos he was well
- known for coming into, and borrowing stuff of mine just because he looked up to me as his big
brother.  He liked getting dressed up in the things that I had.”)
However the appearance of  the gloves in the photographs clearly suggests some involvement in the fight.

445.
The important point is that there is no evidence linking the gloves to David at any
relevant time except through ownership which, as the Crown properly argued in the case of
Margaret’s spectacles, is irrelevant.  Robin’s hand is smaller than David’s.  A smaller hand can fit
in a larger glove.

I'll repeat again... there was no need for Robin to wear them, or remove them from Stephen's hands if he wore them (in bed!) when the struggle had ended, and then conceal them under the bed. Point 445 is baloney.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 31, 2017, 09:28:09 PM
I'll repeat again... there was no need for Robin to wear them, or remove them from Stephen's hands if he wore them (in bed!) when the struggle had ended, and then conceal them under the bed. Point 445 is baloney.

RB may not have worn them.  As I said he may have used them to wipe or touch something or someone.  Were the bloodstains analysed by a a bloodstain analyst?

If DB was the perp why would he wear gloves when he owned the gun and had a legitimate right to handle it and have his fingerprints on it?  Why leave them somewhere they were likely to be found?   

If one carries out mass murder for whatever reason(s) I think it could be said the perp(s) are at the very least temporarily 'disturbed' and therefore the environments at places like 65 Every St and WHF might well seem unfathomable to the rational mind!  At WHF we have the tampon applicator in the lounge and June's bloody bible taking centre stage. 

 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on July 31, 2017, 10:02:53 PM
RB may not have worn them.  As I said he may have used them to wipe or touch something or someone.  Were the bloodstains analysed by a a bloodstain analyst?

If DB was the perp why would he wear gloves when he owned the gun and had a legitimate right to handle it and have his fingerprints on it?  Why leave them somewhere they were likely to be found?   

If one carries out mass murder for whatever reason(s) I think it could be said the perp(s) are at the very least temporarily 'disturbed' and therefore the environments at places like 65 Every St and WHF might well seem unfathomable to the rational mind!  At WHF we have the tampon applicator in the lounge and June's bloody bible taking centre stage.

As in the Bamber case, the police failed to keep and/or test everything, so can't find any info on analysis of the gloves, but the blood was very likely from Stephen's massive injuries. Maybe DB's intention was to wipe the rifle clean of his own prints when everyone had been killed, then plant his father's on them while setting the scene.

The Bains seemed more dysfunctional, and untidier than the Bambers!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 01, 2017, 01:02:14 PM
As in the Bamber case, the police failed to keep and/or test everything, so can't find any info on analysis of the gloves, but the blood was very likely from Stephen's massive injuries. Maybe DB's intention was to wipe the rifle clean of his own prints when everyone had been killed, then plant his father's on them while setting the scene.

The Bains seemed more dysfunctional, and untidier than the Bambers!

Post #129 seems to confirm the blood on the gloves originated from SB who I understand lost a lot of blood.  When I made ref to a blood stain analyst I was referring to an expert who may have been able to determine whether the gloves were actually worn when they became stained or whether they became "smeared" by being in the vicinity. 

If DB was keen to 'set the scene' why leave his heavily blood stained white opera gloves under SB's bed which ended up incriminating him?

I can't see there's any evidence to suggest the perp wore the gloves.  It may be the case the gloves were in SB's room and ended up smeared with blood and kicked under the bed.  How far under the bed were they?  In JB's case some docs refer to the casings as under the bed/wardrobe when the soc photos seem to depict them right on the edge.

The parents seem barking and it appears not only was the house untidy but was literally unhygienic.   

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2478273/The-Bain-mystery
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 01, 2017, 01:32:15 PM
If the following is true I would have thought there was a case for social services involved with the welfare of the children years before the murders:

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-devil-and-mrs-bain/




Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 01, 2017, 02:04:42 PM
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/margaret-bains-death-not-instant

She saw "a large female lying on her back"

"She said when the pathologist moved the lights above Mrs Bain's bed, some moths and silverfish fell out on to the bed".  Oh yuk!  Right I've had enough now  8)><(

At least the pathologist visited soc unlike Dr Vanezis.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 01, 2017, 06:35:17 PM
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/margaret-bains-death-not-instant (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/margaret-bains-death-not-instant)

She saw "a large female lying on her back"

"She said when the pathologist moved the lights above Mrs Bain's bed, some moths and silverfish fell out on to the bed".  Oh yuk!  Right I've had enough now  8)><(

At least the pathologist visited soc unlike Dr Vanezis.

This'll cure your Obsessive Cleanliness Disorder... scroll down for the police video made several hours after they first arrived...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/)

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 01, 2017, 06:42:25 PM
If the following is true I would have thought there was a case for social services involved with the welfare of the children years before the murders:

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-devil-and-mrs-bain/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-devil-and-mrs-bain/)

Lovely photo of them in happier times, but pity she went off the rails after that PNG missionary posting.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 01, 2017, 07:13:10 PM
Post #129 seems to confirm the blood on the gloves originated from SB who I understand lost a lot of blood.  When I made ref to a blood stain analyst I was referring to an expert who may have been able to determine whether the gloves were actually worn when they became stained or whether they became "smeared" by being in the vicinity. 

If DB was keen to 'set the scene' why leave his heavily blood stained white opera gloves under SB's bed which ended up incriminating him?

I can't see there's any evidence to suggest the perp wore the gloves.  It may be the case the gloves were in SB's room and ended up smeared with blood and kicked under the bed.  How far under the bed were they?  In JB's case some docs refer to the casings as under the bed/wardrobe when the soc photos seem to depict them right on the edge.

The parents seem barking and it appears not only was the house untidy but was literally unhygienic.   

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2478273/The-Bain-mystery (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2478273/The-Bain-mystery)

That photo of the single, stained but undamaged opera glove I deleted yesterday was genuine after all, I believe. It came from the STUFF website. The remaining one with two faded gloves was probably taken when samples had been cut out for analysis, and not damaged during the fight with Stephen?

DB might have hoped nobody would discover them underneath the bed, or forget about them because he had other things to cope with, such as washing the green jersey free of stains, setting the scene of his father's "suicide", and getting himself psyched up for that operatic emergency call... 20 minutes too late!

Computer screen with - "sorry, you are the only one who deserved to stay" and Stephen Bain's bloodstained bed...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 10:48:54 AM
This'll cure your Obsessive Cleanliness Disorder... scroll down for the police video made several hours after they first arrived...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/)

I think the state of the house is indicative of something amiss with Mrs Bain's mental health.  At the time of the murders I don't believe she was working and the children were all largely independent so it's not as though she lacked time for a much needed spring clean and tidy up.  I appreciate we all have different norms but I don't think many people would find 65 Every St acceptable and 'normal'.  By comparison WHF looks like something from the Ideal Home Exhibition! 

Imo the truth of these cases, DB and JB, lie in the psychologies of the matriarchs and the family dynamics.  I think Mrs Bain sent her husband over the edge and June sent SC the same way.  In both cases we hear a lot about the psychological/psychiatric assessment of the main protagonists: DB, RB, JB and SC but nothing or little about the matriarchs and their mental states and effect on family members.

Perhaps these cases need reviewing by family therapists.   

 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 11:57:37 AM
That photo of the single, stained but undamaged opera glove I deleted yesterday was genuine after all, I believe. It came from the STUFF website. The remaining one with two faded gloves was probably taken when samples had been cut out for analysis, and not damaged during the fight with Stephen?

DB might have hoped nobody would discover them underneath the bed, or forget about them because he had other things to cope with, such as washing the green jersey free of stains, setting the scene of his father's "suicide", and getting himself psyched up for that operatic emergency call... 20 minutes too late!

Computer screen with - "sorry, you are the only one who deserved to stay" and Stephen Bain's bloodstained bed...

There seems to be an assumption the perp wore the gloves but surely it is possible the gloves became smeared in blood from simply being in the vicinity given the volume of blood found in SB's room?  What about the other sides?  Are there any diagrams showing exactly where they were found?  Were they definitely under the bed as opposed to under the duvet?  Things often get lost in translation eg SC and June on the side of the bed which some interpret as actually on the bed as opposed to the side of the bed on the floor.  Is it possible SB was wearing the gloves when he was shot?   

You have seen my email communication from a forensic scientist about fingerprints on firearms where I was advised they are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating known as bluing.  Yet in both cases, DB and JB, I see attempts to try and explain the lack of fingerprints and the introduction of gloves.  In DB's case the opera gloves and in JB's case unknown gloves which JM claims JB told her a glove may have fallen off in the fight between NB and MM. 

AP claims he handled the rifle a week or so before the murders.  It's almost certain NB, as owner, handled the rifle in the weeks leading up to the murders.  The relatives handled the silencer.  None of their fingerprints were found.  Why?  Because fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms including silencers coated with bluing. 

What would be the motive for DB to murder his family.  He was assessed by a psychologist/psychiatrist shortly after the murders and found to be 'normal' and free from any personality disorder/mental illness.  It is said RB was depressed; his wife wanted him out of her life; at the time of the murders he was banished to live in the garden/campervan; the school he was principal at received a poor review by inspectors; his daughter, LB, was about to go public and claim an incestuous relationship. 

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 01:42:54 PM
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs23mxYFZlnwAyKtLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=david+bains+gloves+youtube&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=788819cfcd7d7ef74a13241da42cb988&action=view

It seems only one glove was found under the bed and this was around the edge ie half under, half exposed.  It also seems one side was bloody and the other not.  I'm inclined to think the gloves are red herrings and were simply hanging about and became bloody as SB fought for his life.  The bedroom is full of junk and blood was found all over the place.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 02, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs23mxYFZlnwAyKtLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=david+bains+gloves+youtube&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=788819cfcd7d7ef74a13241da42cb988&action=view (https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs23mxYFZlnwAyKtLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=david+bains+gloves+youtube&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=788819cfcd7d7ef74a13241da42cb988&action=view)

It seems only one glove was found under the bed and this was around the edge ie half under, half exposed.  It also seems one side was bloody and the other not.  I'm inclined to think the gloves are red herrings and were simply hanging about and became bloody as SB fought for his life.  The bedroom is full of junk and blood was found all over the place.
The glove(s) had been worn.  There is no blood on the floor surrounding the one in the video, meaning that it couldn't have got on from being dripped off Stephen's wounds if it had merely rested there.  Both gloves were bloody, hence both worn... see photo above.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 02, 2017, 06:34:09 PM
What would be the motive for DB to murder his family. He was assessed by a psychologist/psychiatrist shortly after the murders and found to be 'normal' and free from any personality disorder/mental illness.  It is said RB was depressed; his wife wanted him out of her life; at the time of the murders he was banished to live in the garden/campervan; the school he was principal at received a poor review by inspectors; his daughter, LB, was about to go public and claim an incestuous relationship.

David Bain had little money, no regular income apart from his paper round, and was irritated by the lack of any progress being made in the construction of a new home which his mother had drawn up and submitted plans for.  Allegedly, Robin Bain wasn't as enthusiastic about the project, and his eldest son increasingly flexed his muscle in the Bain household to dominate his younger siblings. What easier way out than to get rid of them all in order to improve his dire situation with the money set aside by his parents for the rebuild.

Why would Robin leave that cryptic computer message praising David over all the others, when in fact Stephen and Arawa were getting on just fine with their father and their own lives at school and college?  It only makes sense if David typed it on the computer, rather than writing it out longhand to avoid any suspicion that the message was his.

After finishing his paper round, what does David do?  Washes his "black hands", switches on the washing machine, then goes back upstairs into his bedroom, notices his wardrobe door open with numerous bullets, an empty ammo box and his rifle trigger lock with key scattered on the floor... but no rifle.  He must have gone searching for it and discovered his family's bodies, but then stalls for 20 minutes before calling for help!  What would any sensible son who cared about his family do on discovering such carnage?  That's right... call emergency services asap, or go find the nearest passer-by or neighbour to raise the alarm. The long delay makes no sense!

When interviewed by police, he claimed that he hadn't seen Stephen's, Laniet's or Arawa's bodies, only those of his mum and dad, yet in the 111 call he repeated FIVE times that ALL his family were dead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

In court, he contradicted himself again by stating that he heard Laniet gurgling when he went into her room, but in 2012 told Justice Binnie he had no recall of any gurgling!!!

http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling (http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling)

Those were only three slip-ups, but there are just too many other contradictions for me to believe anything other than David Bain was responsible.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 07:53:19 PM
David Bain had little money, no regular income apart from his paper round, and was irritated by the lack of any progress being made in the construction of a new home which his mother had drawn up and submitted plans for.  Allegedly, Robin Bain wasn't as enthusiastic about the project, and his eldest son increasingly flexed his muscle in the Bain household to dominate his younger siblings. What easier way out than to get rid of them all in order to improve his dire situation with the money set aside by his parents for the rebuild.

Why would Robin leave that cryptic computer message praising David over all the others, when in fact Stephen and Arawa were getting on just fine with their father and their own lives at school and college?  It only makes sense if David typed it on the computer, rather than writing it out longhand to avoid any suspicion that the message was his.

After finishing his paper round, what does David do?  Washes his "black hands", switches on the washing machine, then goes back upstairs into his bedroom, notices his wardrobe door open with numerous bullets, an empty ammo box and his rifle trigger lock with key scattered on the floor... but no rifle.  He must have gone searching for it and discovered his family's bodies, but then stalls for 20 minutes before calling for help!  What would any sensible son who cared about his family do on discovering such carnage?  That's right... call emergency services asap, or go find the nearest passer-by or neighbour to raise the alarm. The long delay makes no sense!

When interviewed by police, he claimed that he hadn't seen Stephen's, Laniet's or Arawa's bodies, only those of his mum and dad, yet in the 111 call he repeated FIVE times that ALL his family were dead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

In court, he contradicted himself again by stating that he heard Laniet gurgling when he went into her room, but in 2012 told Justice Binnie he had no recall of any gurgling!!!

http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling (http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling)

Those were only three slip-ups, but there are just too many other contradictions for me to believe anything other than David Bain was responsible.

DB was a student.  Millions of 20 something students all over the globe with little or no money and 99.99% don't turn to mass murder. 

I don't think RB was part of MB's future and/or expected to reside in the new property.  MB was looking to buy RB out/pay him off. 

It seems DB got on well with his siblings.  There's some evidence that RB was also sexually abusing Arawa in addition to Laniet.  He may well have been a paedophile and certainly his background of school teacher, scout/youth leader and missionary would provide the ideal cover.  Maybe this was the source of his depression.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs2PmFoJZZVMAc1VLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=youtube+arawa+bain+abused+by+father&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=38a04de8c92f252fc267eeffb5837511&action=view

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2432987/Laniet-Bain-hard-to-abstain-from-sex

I think research shows that young women sexually abused by fathers often end up prostituting themselves. 

Thankfully so few of us will ever face being the sole survivor of family annihilation that I think it is impossible to generalise about behaviour, reactions etc.



Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 08:12:18 PM
Maybe MB, consciously or sub-consciously, suspected RB of sexually abusing their daughters hence her constant reference to the "devil". 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 02, 2017, 08:16:30 PM
DB was a student.  Millions of 20 something students all over the globe with little or no money and 99.99% don't turn to mass murder. 

I don't think RB was part of MB's future and/or expected to reside in the new property.  MB was looking to buy RB out/pay him off. 

It seems DB got on well with his siblings.  There's some evidence that RB was also sexually abusing Arawa in addition to Laniet.  He may well have been a paedophile and certainly his background of school teacher, scout/youth leader and missionary would provide the ideal cover.  Maybe this was the source of his depression.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs2PmFoJZZVMAc1VLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=youtube+arawa+bain+abused+by+father&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=38a04de8c92f252fc267eeffb5837511&action=view (https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A9mSs2PmFoJZZVMAc1VLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTEybjljdmk0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjMxMzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=youtube+arawa+bain+abused+by+father&fr=moz35#id=1&vid=38a04de8c92f252fc267eeffb5837511&action=view)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2432987/Laniet-Bain-hard-to-abstain-from-sex (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2432987/Laniet-Bain-hard-to-abstain-from-sex)

I think research shows that young women sexually abused by fathers often end up prostituting themselves. 

Thankfully so few of us will ever face being the sole survivor of family annihilation that I think it is impossible to generalise about behaviour, reactions etc.

Laniet was a fantasist who claimed she had a "black baby" after being raped in PNG, when nothing could be further from the truth!

You don't think that breathy, operatic aria Bain sang over the phone was a genuine distress call, Holly... surely?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 08:22:34 PM
Laniet was a fantasist who claimed she had a "black baby" after being raped in PNG, when nothing could be further from the truth!

You don't think that breathy, operatic aria Bain sang over the phone was a genuine distress call, Holly... surely?

So you don't think RB sexually abused one or both daughters? 

How would you expect someone to sound assuming they were the victim of family annihilation as opposed to mass murderer?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 02, 2017, 08:57:13 PM
So you don't think RB sexually abused one or both daughters? 

How would you expect someone to sound in the circumstances?

No... well at least not in his rusty old Commer van!

There's just too much exaggerated shortness of breath followed by a normal period when he gives out the address and his name clearly, then reverts back to fake distress at the end, and this call made some 20 minutes after discovering the carnage, whereas I would have expected him to be genuinely flustered and breathless if he'd phoned immediately.

And how did he know they were all dead if he only saw the bodies of his parents?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 02, 2017, 09:21:52 PM
No... well at least not in his rusty old Commer van!

Well he had a new Commer door! 

There's just too much exaggerated shortness of breath followed by a normal period when he gives out the address and his name clearly, then reverts back to fake distress at the end, and this call made some 20 minutes after discovering the carnage, whereas I would have expected him to be genuinely flustered and breathless if he'd phoned immediately.

And how did he know they were all dead if he only saw the bodies of his parents?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk)

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

The likely chronology is as follows:

5.45 am David leaves to do his paper route.  Robin subsequently enters the house. 

6.43 am The computer “turn-on” time as established by the prosecution’s expert.

6:45 am David is seen “squeezing” between the gate and the hedge at Every Street by a witness called by the prosecution, Mrs Denise Laney, whose timing was verified by the Police. 

6:45 to approximately 7:05 am David Bain does various tasks in the house, discovers his gun missing from his wardrobe, goes from room to room upstairs and downstairs in search of his mother and siblings, finally opens
the door to the lounge and finds his father’s body.

7.10 am David Bain, said to be traumatized by shock, calls emergency services. 

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 02, 2017, 09:35:56 PM
Well he had a new Commer door! 

... and a newish Commodore computer, but rest of the van needed plenty Kurust...

https://youtu.be/VRwUqReEheE?t=4m15s (https://youtu.be/VRwUqReEheE?t=4m15s)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2017, 12:04:41 PM
Familicide, with or without suicide, is rare so I think it's difficult to make judgements about actions and behaviour and what would be considered 'normal'.   

Some don't believe NB would call JB and that JB's subsequent 'dithering' is indicative of guilt.  Similar situation with DB where some find the emergency call and computer message lack authenticity.   In both cases the families were grossly dysfunctional. 

Had the Bains and Bambers been low socio economic families they may well have come to the attention of the authorities before disaster struck. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 03, 2017, 12:57:56 PM
Bain wasn't just dithering, he waited far, far too long to make that emergency call when there might have been a remote possibility of saving Laniet's life, after he claimed to hear her gurgling.

What was he doing in those 20 minutes? - cleaning himself up, putting his bloodstained green jersey on a full hours hot wash, when as chief laundryman he would know that wool shrinks irreversably when treated as such, balancing the magazine case like a domino soldier on its edge close to his dad's right hand, and finally typing that cryptic computer message?

The latest question and answer session with Martin van Beynen...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 03, 2017, 06:04:56 PM
Familicide, with or without suicide, is rare so I think it's difficult to make judgements about actions and behaviour and what would be considered 'normal'.   

Some don't believe NB would call JB and that JB's subsequent 'dithering' is indicative of guilt.  Similar situation with DB where some find the emergency call and computer message lack authenticity.   In both cases the families were grossly dysfunctional. 

Had the Bains and Bambers been low socio economic families they may well have come to the attention of the authorities before disaster struck.

For balance, Justice Binnie's report re. David Bain's compensation claim in 2012...

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 03, 2017, 06:49:54 PM
Bain wasn't just dithering, he waited far, far too long to make that emergency call when there might have been a remote possibility of saving Laniet's life, after he claimed to hear her gurgling.

What was he doing in those 20 minutes? - cleaning himself up, putting his bloodstained green jersey on a full hours hot wash, when as chief laundryman he would know that wool shrinks irreversably when treated as such, balancing the magazine case like a domino soldier on its edge close to his dad's right hand, and finally typing that cryptic computer message?

The latest question and answer session with Martin van Beynen...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands)

Well he was hardly going to go straight in and discover the victims.  Now that would look suspicious!  He had no reason to deviate from his normal routine and it was only when he discovered his rifle missing and ammo on the floor of his bedroom that he investigated further.  Upon discovering his parents he made the emergency call.   

"The Curious Placement of the empty 10 shot magazine" is dealt with on page 87 of the following:

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

I will have to get back to you on the other points.  An hour to go until the Lionesses take on Netherlands in the semis.  So excited I can hardly think straight!   8(*( *&*%£
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 03, 2017, 08:06:34 PM
Well he was hardly going to go straight in and discover the victims.  Now that would look suspicious!  He had no reason to deviate from his normal routine and it was only when he discovered his rifle missing and ammo on the floor of his bedroom that he investigated further.  Upon discovering his parents he made the emergency call.   

"The Curious Placement of the empty 10 shot magazine" is dealt with on page 87 of the following:

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf (https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf)

I will have to get back to you on the other points.  An hour to go until the Lionesses take on Netherlands in the semis.  So excited I can hardly think straight!   8(*( *&*%£

And what did he say? -

DB - "They're ALL dead!"

Recipient - "Who are?"

DB - "My family... they're ALL dead!"

Three more times!

But when interviewed he claimed to have seen only the bodies of his parents, even when asked twice.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 04, 2017, 11:57:55 AM
And what did he say? -

DB - "They're ALL dead!"

Recipient - "Who are?"

DB - "My family... they're ALL dead!"

Three more times!

But when interviewed he claimed to have seen only the bodies of his parents, even when asked twice.

All the points you raise have been countered by Ian Binnie QC in the following document:

https://justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

Placement of magazine:

451.
The evidence at the 2009 retrial does not improve our knowledge of this issue.  I accept
the view of the Crown Law Office that it is likely the empty magazine was placed not dropped. 
However, as the Privy Council noted, the question remains of who placed it.  Its position was as
consistent with suicide as with murder.  The curious placement is therefore neither exculpatory
nor inculpatory of David or Robin, in my opinion.

Bodies witnessed prior to emergency tel call

As far as I can see he observed all victims in-situ prior to making the tel call?

Noises from Laniet

It is a well known fact that the recently deceased can make various sounds as they go through the various biological stages of death.  DB said he could see there was nothing he could do.

Blood stained clothes

I don't believe the green jumper belonged to DB?  It was said to be too small.  He apparently had small stains on his shorts and tshirt which he said came from innocent transfer around door frames and when he touched SB's body.

The more I read the more I am convinced DB is innocent.  I think the father was sexually abusing one or both daughters hence Mrs Bain referring to her husband as a son of Belial - one of the Four Crown Princes of Hell.

31. The Bain family was somewhat dysfunctional.  The house was a shambles.  Margaret’s
interest was in new-age spiritualism.  Keeping the house clean was not a family priority.  One of
the Police officers described the place as “unkempt and a pigsty”.  Robin’s marriage to
Margaret had effectively broken down.  She had called him a son of Belial – one of the Four
Crown Princes of Hell.  He did not sleep in the house with his wife and children.  When staying
at 65 Every Street, he was banished to sleep outside the house in a caravan.


Probably also explains why MB wouldn't allow her husband to spend the night inside the property.  Assuming she hadn't recently been told by one of her daughters what was going on she probably knew or suspected consciously or sub-consciously.

Many similarities with JB's case especially with regard to all the circumstantial evidence and how these cases just seem to take on a life of their own!  Frightening.

Anyway DB has now taken on his wife's name and moved to Australia with their child. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 04, 2017, 08:18:47 PM
The NZ government thought the Binnie Report too lenient on David Bain, so they commissioned a counterblast from Robert Fisher QC, which refuted many of Binnie's conclusions...

https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/David-Bain-report-of-Hon-Robert-Fisher-QC.pdf (https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/David-Bain-report-of-Hon-Robert-Fisher-QC.pdf)

http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/justice-binnies-report-markedly-generous-to-bain-2012121314 (http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/justice-binnies-report-markedly-generous-to-bain-2012121314)

Listen to how David Bain sidesteps questions about Laniet's gurgling, and Stephen's blood being found on the crotch of his shorts. Those are just two examples...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/)

Deliberately obscuring and conveniently forgetting details which should have been imprinted on his mind after such a life-changing event.

Methinks Bain was and still is using the same ploy as Bamber. Sorry, Holly... his tale is unbelievable.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 04, 2017, 08:39:27 PM
Blood stained clothes

I don't believe the green jumper belonged to DB?  It was said to be too small.

Looks big enough to fit DB to me, even after a superwash, and he was slim at the time...

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
Just catching up  8(0(*

 From Cynric Temple-Camp in his new book, in a rare moment where he gets it right.

All I can say is that people can and do have odd ideas, and pathologists are certainly not immune. As G.G. Kelly put it, talking about ballistic evidence in murder cases: ‘I soon learned the gun spoke eloquently, sincerely and truthfully; I have found that people sometimes fall a little short in this regard.

Meanwhile, fresh today is this Ian Binnie interview with the rugged Kim Hill.

Profound, lucid, lethal to NZ government.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201853679/justice-ian-binnie-compensating-david-bain

Watch carefully the adjustments to society that flow.
You Bamber people should LISTEN UP!!!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 05, 2017, 10:15:52 AM
Bain wasn't just dithering, he waited far, far too long to make that emergency call when there might have been a remote possibility of saving Laniet's life, after he claimed to hear her gurgling.

What was he doing in those 20 minutes? - cleaning himself up, putting his bloodstained green jersey on a full hours hot wash, when as chief laundryman he would know that wool shrinks irreversably when treated as such, balancing the magazine case like a domino soldier on its edge close to his dad's right hand, and finally typing that cryptic computer message?

The latest question and answer session with Martin van Beynen...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95394625/live-martin-van-beynen-on-black-hands)
Oh yes, you totally need the David Bain experience to bolster Bamber.
Unfortunately it is shot to smithereens in the interview with Binnie above.
Unless cognitive dissonance is your untreated condition.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 05, 2017, 10:59:09 AM
Oh yes, you totally need the David Bain experience to bolster Bamber.
Unfortunately it is shot to smithereens in the interview with Binnie above.
Unless cognitive dissonance is your untreated condition.

LOL!!!... I bet the NZ government are quaking in their boots after that woeful chat.

It will change no-one's view. Ian Binnie's entitled to his opinion as others are, but he's wrong imo, and just so accepting of Bain's evasive answers.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 05, 2017, 12:27:03 PM
LOL!!!... I bet the NZ government are quaking in their boots after that woeful chat.

It will change no-one's view. Ian Binnie's entitled to his opinion as others are, but he's wrong imo, and just so accepting of Bain's evasive answers.
You listened if at all with a non open mind.
Binnie is masterful and detailed, we are doing a full transcription to annihilate the garbage in the kitchen cabinet waste bin.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: APRIL on August 05, 2017, 04:04:41 PM
You listened if at all with a non open mind.
Binnie is masterful and detailed, we are doing a full transcription to annihilate the garbage in the kitchen cabinet waste bin.

No idea who is Binnie but MASTERFUL? Sounds like you've got the hots for him @)(++(*
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 05, 2017, 10:42:25 PM
No idea who is Binnie but MASTERFUL? Sounds like you've got the hots for him @)(++(*
A view from a Canadian lawyer Lashl, she was an ISF moderator.

Until now, I had never heard of this case so I don't know anything about it or have any pre-conceived notions about it, but I am finding this (pdf file) an interesting read so far. Ian Binnie, who is a retired Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, is certainly no slouch, so I am interested in reading his take on the matter.

and

I have some concern that starting at ~about page 157, suddenly there is the introduction of qualifiers such as "Comment" or "Comments" in advance of various bits and pieces in the midst of Binnie's report. These do not appear to be Binnie's words, and it looks like someone else has interjected them. It is not clear to me whether this is the case or whose "comments" may have been interjected.

and

Well, that's reasonably compelling on that particular point, indeed (and I watched the whole 38 minutes of it.)

link: Not found but it showed that the marks on Robin's thumb indeed were replicated by loading billets to the 22 cartridge.
Charlie Wilkes obligingly stated

In the video I watched, investigators exactly replicated the marks shown in the crime scene photo. The marks are distinctive and unusual. You offer no reason to accept your claim that they were "clearly older marks with ingrained dirt."

and

It happens I own a .22 semi-auto, with a slightly different magazine cartridge, but it loads the same way, and I see the point exactly. I have had those marks on my own thumb and index finger.

They didn't "try very hard." They merely demonstrated what happened when they reloaded the magazine after shooting the gun.

..................................................

Of course no one here should be distracted by two North American specialists in their fields with no axe to grind in the Bain case.  8(>((
We are preparing a full annotated transcription of Binnie's very important interview. It shows the disgraceful oozing mendacity of the National government cabinet.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2017, 07:25:48 AM
Ah yes, the Holy Grail that was supposed to exonerate David Bain... except that the "residue" lines on Robin's thumb aren't parallel, unlike the metal edges on the magazine; they differ in width (check it out with a ruler or piece of paper on your screen); and as numerous bullets had been loaded, there should have been more than just one pair of marks (or two pairs, if you want to stretch it by including other marks on his forefinger).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8851997/Media-drawn-into-Bain-blame-game (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8851997/Media-drawn-into-Bain-blame-game)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 06, 2017, 07:53:41 AM
There should be no marks on his thumb.
Yes there should be marks on Sheila's thumb but she washed herself in various ways.
This is probably a girl thing before suicide.

Myster: I am delighted to see you meditating on 23 year olds with powerful alibis and without motive being accused of crimes better ascribed to desperate  close relatives who see

NO WAY OUT.

You are a smart man.
I can teach you.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
Motive?  Both Bamber and Bain were pi$$edoff with their families, wanted a way out and saw a pot of gold within easy reach for little effort... reasons enough.

Now what about why Bain dawdled for 20 plus minutes after seeing his dead parents or listening to Laniet gurgling?

It needs more than just his stock one word answer of "Slow", or that he was having one of those funny turns which conveniently started only a couple of weeks before (or months before until he changed his story).
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 06, 2017, 08:56:32 AM
Motive?  Both Bamber and Bain were pi$$edoff with their families, wanted a way out and saw a pot of gold within easy reach for little effort... reasons enough.

Now what about why Bain dawdled for 20 plus minutes after seeing his dead parents or listening to Laniet gurgling?

It needs more than just his stock one word answer of "Slow", or that he was having one of those funny turns which conveniently started only a couple of weeks before (or months before until he changed his story).
Myster, did you see my import of the gun ballistic guy?
Trajectories are absolute in Bamber and Bain.
Sheila, Robin, laid waste to their families, themselves, and unwittingly destroyed their 23 year old hard working sons.
For pities sake Robin Bain tried to explain, but generations of morons are screwing that simple pooch.
O M G.
Just grow up you lot, study science, and stop revering that idiot Teresa May.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2017, 09:48:28 AM
Yes, and I've read about and seen numerous photos/videos on rifle position and trajectory theories in the past - by Philip Boyce, Robert Ngamoki and others, but there are different interpretions to achieve a similar result, such as whether Robin Bain was sitting, kneeling or standing with his head vertical or tilted down sideways  There's no single definitive answer. He could have been blissfully unaware that he was about to be shot by a perp hiding behind the alcove curtain.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2017, 10:05:11 AM
Must dash, work to do... but either Holly or this should satisfy you meanwhile...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 06, 2017, 10:07:07 AM
Ah yes, the Holy Grail that was supposed to exonerate David Bain... except that the "residue" lines on Robin's thumb aren't parallel, unlike the metal edges on the magazine; they differ in width (check it out with a ruler or piece of paper on your screen); and as numerous bullets had been loaded, there should have been more than just one pair of marks (or two pairs, if you want to stretch it by including other marks on his forefinger).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8851997/Media-drawn-into-Bain-blame-game (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8851997/Media-drawn-into-Bain-blame-game)

Christ the state of his hands and nails?  Samson I assume NZ sells soap and nail brushes?  To my eyes his hands and nails look filthy with dirt and grime long embedded.  I'm not sure I see a connection between the marks and loading bullets.  Perhaps the state of his hands/nails were indicative of his mental state ie depressed. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
Christ the state of his hands and nails?  Samson I assume NZ sells soap and nail brushes?  To my eyes his hands and nails look filthy with dirt and grime long embedded.  I'm not sure I see a connection between the marks and loading bullets.  Perhaps the state of his hands/nails were indicative of his mental state ie depressed. 
One of his school colleagues said he was a bit whiffy after sleeping in his van three days on the trot without washing.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 06, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
Just catching up  8(0(*

 From Cynric Temple-Camp in his new book, in a rare moment where he gets it right.

All I can say is that people can and do have odd ideas, and pathologists are certainly not immune. As G.G. Kelly put it, talking about ballistic evidence in murder cases: ‘I soon learned the gun spoke eloquently, sincerely and truthfully; I have found that people sometimes fall a little short in this regard.

Meanwhile, fresh today is this Ian Binnie interview with the rugged Kim Hill.

Profound, lucid, lethal to NZ government.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201853679/justice-ian-binnie-compensating-david-bain

Watch carefully the adjustments to society that flow.
You Bamber people should LISTEN UP!!!

I like that.  So much so I might adopt it as my new tagline.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 06, 2017, 10:21:59 AM
There should be no marks on his thumb.
Yes there should be marks on Sheila's thumb but she washed herself in various ways.
This is probably a girl thing before suicide.

Myster: I am delighted to see you meditating on 23 year olds with powerful alibis and without motive being accused of crimes better ascribed to desperate  close relatives who see

NO WAY OUT.

You are a smart man.
I can teach you.

Should there have been marks on SC's hands?  I loaded 10 bullets of the type used into the exact same mag and my hands were perfectly clean to the naked eye.  Perhaps I should go back to the gun shop and video the exercise  &%+((£
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 06, 2017, 11:05:51 AM
Motive?  Both Bamber and Bain were pi$$edoff with their families, wanted a way out and saw a pot of gold within easy reach for little effort... reasons enough.

Now what about why Bain dawdled for 20 plus minutes after seeing his dead parents or listening to Laniet gurgling?

It needs more than just his stock one word answer of "Slow", or that he was having one of those funny turns which conveniently started only a couple of weeks before (or months before until he changed his story).

I think one has to look a lot deeper for motive.  Both families were grossly dysfunctional in different ways.  They were able to fall under the radar due to pre-conceived ideas about the parents particularly with regard to their affiliations to Christianity/church (there's a lot of insanity there  8)-))))

Bambers

Unable to conceive birth children so adopt.  By the time June adopted SC she had already suffered one breakdown all connected with her inability to conceive.  Having adopted SC she suffered a further breakdown again connected to the same theme. 

The Bambers should never have been approved to adopt in the first place let alone keep SC after June's second breakdown and go on to adopt JB. 

It seems SC and JB were largely brought up by others: nanny, au pairs and boarding school.  The relationship between June and SC seems off the richter scale in terms of dysfunction.  JB described his relationship with June as "rough and smooth". 

June's religiosity and attitude to sexual morality evidenced by referring to SC as the "Devil's child" for nude sunbathing and JM as a "harlot" for staying over at JB's.  Given June's attitude on these matters I find it difficult to see how she was able to view her adopted children, born illegitimate, in a positive light.

Bains

Many accounts describe the children as "running wild" in PNG.  All the research shows children fare better growing up with clear, consistent and fair boundaries. 

What qualified MB to homeschool her children?  Her diaries contain spelling mistakes. In any event surely mainstream school is about more than academic attainment and qualifications?  It provides opportunity for children to socialise with others outside the family?  Also if there are problems at home teachers can often pick up on and report to social services or others eg the twins teachers reporting back to CC re SC.

Numerous accounts that Laniet had turned to prostitution and accused her father of sexually abusing her.  She also discussed with others a rape and having a black baby in PNG.  The latter appears to have been a "fantasy".  Whether the former is true or not it is surely indicative that something is amiss if a child/young woman has such fantasies?

MB seeing the devil everywhere: husband, children, car, newspapers! 

The physical state of the parents and their dwellings.  Most people manage to keep themselves and property reasonably clean and tidy.  Perhaps indicative of depression/mental illness. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 06, 2017, 09:03:05 PM
Posters are reminded that although David Bain has been refused compensation for the time he spent in prison, he was nevertheless found not guilty of the murders after his retrial in 2009 and this should be reflected accordingly in any comments.

Opinion should be clearly indicated in any posts. TY
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 07, 2017, 12:21:08 PM
Posters are reminded that although David Bain has been refused compensation for the time he spent in prison, he was nevertheless found not guilty of the murders after his retrial in 2009 and this should be reflected accordingly in any comments.

Opinion should be clearly indicated in any posts. TY


It is frightening how these cases seem to hang in the balance with juries delivering different verdicts, reviews by QC's arriving at different conclusions and expert opinion all over the place.

Although DB was refused compensation he has received nearly 1 million NZ dollars as an 'ex-gratia' payment:

http://newzealand.lawfuel.com/david-bain-receive-almost-1-million-compensation/
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 07, 2017, 05:40:18 PM
It is frightening how these cases seem to hang in the balance with juries delivering different verdicts, reviews by QC's arriving at different conclusions and expert opinion all over the place.

Although DB was refused compensation he has received nearly 1 million NZ dollars as an 'ex-gratia' payment:

http://newzealand.lawfuel.com/david-bain-receive-almost-1-million-compensation/

I totally agree Holly.   A jury finds David Bain not guilty after he has spends 13 years in prison, a Canadian judge is set the task of reviewing the case and recommends that he is paid compensation.  The Kiwi authorities dismiss the judges report and appoint another judge, this time from NZ to do a second review.  He submits that Bain should not be compensated for the time spent in prison after coming to the conclusion that on the balance of probabilities that Bain is NOT innocent. WTF!!!

The Canadian judge who did the original review has now severely criticised the former New Zealand Justice Minister and is accusing her of being biast towards David Bain.

He told the Weekend Herald that former Justice Minister Judith Collins had "a very definite bias" against Bain when she rejected Binnie's 2012 report finding that, "on the balance of probabilities", Bain was innocent of murdering his parents and three siblings in 1994.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11898989
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 07, 2017, 07:02:44 PM
Have you listened to all ten of Martin van Beyens podcasts, John?  I know you don't have much time, with running the show and other commitments, but they're a well-reasoned account of why he thinks Robin Bain did not shoot his family and then himself.

It's easier to download them all first, then parts can be skipped, forwarded and returned to, as needed...

http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)

Some excellent sharp crime scene photos on the stuff site as well, such as the one below showing the entrance to David Bain's bedroom. When DB came home from his morning paper round, he must have hung up his yellow plastic delivery bag behind the door... but surely he couldn't have missed seeing the open wardrobe door where his rifle was kept, I believe, and the rifle trigger lock with key inserted, an empty red box of "Whisper" .22 ammo and a few unused rounds in front of the opened wardrobe drawer. It was a dark morning, but when the police arrived and peered through into his bedroom window, the light was on and he was sitting on the floor near his bed and wouldn't let them in, so they had to break a glass pane in the front door to gain access.

The trigger lock key was kept in that square pottery container in a different part of the room, but the hacky sack (or foot bag) which kids use to play keepy-uppy had been carefully replaced on top of its lid. Would Robin Bain have gone to such trouble if he was about to shoot himself?

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/)

I've left the pics at their original size so as not to lose detail...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 07, 2017, 07:50:39 PM
Have you listened to all ten of Martin van Beyens podcasts, John?  I know you don't have much time, with running the show and other commitments, but they're a well-reasoned account of why he thinks Robin Bain did not shoot his family and then himself.

It's easier to download them all first, then parts can be skipped, forwarded and returned to, as needed...

http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)

Some excellent sharp crime scene photos on the stuff site as well, such as the one below showing the entrance to David Bain's bedroom. When DB came home from his morning paper round, he must have hung up his yellow plastic delivery bag behind the door... but surely he couldn't have missed seeing the open wardrobe door where his rifle was kept, I believe, and the rifle trigger lock with key inserted, an empty red box of "Whisper" .22 ammo and a few unused rounds in front of the opened wardrobe drawer. It was a dark morning, but when the police arrived and peered through into his bedroom window, the light was on and he was sitting on the floor near his bed and wouldn't let them in, so they had to break a glass pane in the front door to gain access.

The trigger lock key was kept in that square pottery container in a different part of the room, but the hacky sack (or foot bag) which kids use to play keepy-uppy had been carefully replaced on top of its lid. Would Robin Bain have gone to such trouble if he was about to shoot himself?

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/)

I've left the pics at their original size so as not to lose detail...

Thanx for that Myster.  I know very little of the case but I have found it compelling to the extent that I would like to look further into it.  The blood on David Bain's gloves which were found under his brothers bed is very strange, curiously, he hasn't been able to explain their presence.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 07, 2017, 08:16:27 PM
DB claimed that Stephen probably borrowed his opera gloves, as he was sometimes inclined to do with other clothes!

Also odd are three bruises on DB's forehead, the graze on his kneecap which a doctor noted soon after the murders, and scratch marks as if from fingernails on his right shoulder area noticed by a prison officer when he was strip-searched after being taken into custody. On the Wednesday after the murders, a girlfriend who visited him saw some scratches on his chest when they were discussing what had happened in those 20 lost minutes. DB told her that he didn't know how he had got them and removed his shirt to show her - all this witnessed at the second trial in 2009.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 02:40:05 PM
DB claimed that Stephen probably borrowed his opera gloves, as he was sometimes inclined to do with other clothes!

Also odd are three bruises on DB's forehead, the graze on his kneecap which a doctor noted soon after the murders, and scratch marks as if from fingernails on his right shoulder area noticed by a prison officer when he was strip-searched after being taken into custody. On the Wednesday after the murders, a girlfriend who visited him saw some scratches on his chest when they were discussing what had happened in those 20 lost minutes. DB told her that he didn't know how he had got them and removed his shirt to show her - all this witnessed at the second trial in 2009.

Did DB say SB was in the habit of borrowing clothes or items in general?  I thought it was the latter.  I can think of a reason a 14 year old boy might borrow a pair of white opera gloves: a white opera gloved hand might make a refreshing change from an ungloved hand!  Apologies if this sounds inappropriate but we're all adults and imo I think this is a distinct possibility.  This might also account for the blood staining and location found.  SB was 14 yoa and DB 22 yoa so the gloves were probably a loose fit on SB and may have come off during the fight.  Alterantively they may have been in or on the bed and became blood stained from SB's gsw's to his hand and head.   

Why would DB leave the blood stained gloves in SB's bedroom?  Why not hide them or put them in the washing machine with the rest of the washing eg the green jumper? 

DB apparently passed out shortly after he discovered his family dead/murdered and attributed the bruises and marks to a collision with furniture.  Dr Pryde who examined DB at around 11pm didn't observe any scratches to his chest.  These marks were supposedly observed days later by a prison officer.

We see the same thing in JB's case where AP claims he observed small marks on JB's hands and yet the CoA  refuted this claim.  Even AE observed on her record cards JB's hands and arms were free from any marks.  EP inspected JB's hands at a much later date using a special light and found no marks.  And yet SC's unexplained graze to her abdomen is written off as irrelevant. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 03:04:43 PM
Have you listened to all ten of Martin van Beyens podcasts, John?  I know you don't have much time, with running the show and other commitments, but they're a well-reasoned account of why he thinks Robin Bain did not shoot his family and then himself.

It's easier to download them all first, then parts can be skipped, forwarded and returned to, as needed...

http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)

Some excellent sharp crime scene photos on the stuff site as well, such as the one below showing the entrance to David Bain's bedroom. When DB came home from his morning paper round, he must have hung up his yellow plastic delivery bag behind the door... but surely he couldn't have missed seeing the open wardrobe door where his rifle was kept, I believe, and the rifle trigger lock with key inserted, an empty red box of "Whisper" .22 ammo and a few unused rounds in front of the opened wardrobe drawer. It was a dark morning, but when the police arrived and peered through into his bedroom window, the light was on and he was sitting on the floor near his bed and wouldn't let them in, so they had to break a glass pane in the front door to gain access.

The trigger lock key was kept in that square pottery container in a different part of the room, but the hacky sack (or foot bag) which kids use to play keepy-uppy had been carefully replaced on top of its lid. Would Robin Bain have gone to such trouble if he was about to shoot himself?

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/)

I've left the pics at their original size so as not to lose detail...

DB said when he first returned he didn't turn the lights on.  I can relate to this as I sometimes go out running early in the morning and return when it's still dark.  I often do things in darkness or half dark as I don't like bright lights on straight away.  Plus the lights on can wake others up who are still sleeping. 

Which pot was the key in brown or blue?  It looks to me like it would be possible to lift the lid remove the key drop the lid and keep everything else in position including the stress ball if that's what it is.   

I haven't listened to the MB podcasts but will do later time permitting - thanks for uploading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Beynen
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 03:17:51 PM
Just catching up  8(0(*

 From Cynric Temple-Camp in his new book, in a rare moment where he gets it right.

All I can say is that people can and do have odd ideas, and pathologists are certainly not immune. As G.G. Kelly put it, talking about ballistic evidence in murder cases: ‘I soon learned the gun spoke eloquently, sincerely and truthfully; I have found that people sometimes fall a little short in this regard.

Meanwhile, fresh today is this Ian Binnie interview with the rugged Kim Hill.

Profound, lucid, lethal to NZ government.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201853679/justice-ian-binnie-compensating-david-bain

Watch carefully the adjustments to society that flow.
You Bamber people should LISTEN UP!!!

Thanks for uploading this Samson.  Very interesting and makes a lot of sense to me.  I like the argument about the fight ie RB and SB were more evenly matched in terms of physicality.  If DB was the perp it is likely he would quickly take SB out in a hand-to-hand fight with minimum of fuss given the different size in statue.  Also as pointed out DB ran competitively so likely to have good aerobic capacity.  I note a skipping rope hanging up in his bedroom too.   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 05:30:21 PM
I've just listened to podcast 2:  Mrs Bain, the Diary and the Devil. 

It seems clear Mrs Bain was seriously mentally unwell.  She spent days, or longer, in bed; made her own medicines consisting of urine and phlegm; saw the Devil everywhere; was very overweight and desperate to resume her sex life with her husband.  All commentators refer to the properties as dirty and uhygienic.  At one stage she was living outside in the caravan as she thought the Devil was in the house.  This women was in desperate need of psychiatric treatment.

Many said the children run around naked in PNG.  Sounds to me the children should have been removed by social services but maybe they were all able to fall under the radar in PNG.  DB and Arawa could barely read and write when they returned to Dunedin.  So much for their mother's home schooling.       

Is it possible Mrs Bain was the perp and DB moved the rifle to spare his mother's reputation?  Hence her lens in SB's bedroom? 

Fascinating that these two cases of familcide with sole surviving sons also have matriarchs with mental illness, obsessed with the Devil and Christianity.   

The Bambers actually seem quite 'normal' compared with the Bains. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 05:40:04 PM
Did DB say SB was in the habit of borrowing clothes or items in general?  I thought it was the latter.  I can think of a reason a 14 year old boy might borrow a pair of white opera gloves: a white opera gloved hand might make a refreshing change from an ungloved hand!  Apologies if this sounds inappropriate but we're all adults and imo I think this is a distinct possibility.  This might also account for the blood staining and location found.  SB was 14 yoa and DB 22 yoa so the gloves were probably a loose fit on SB and may have come off during the fight.  Alterantively they may have been in or on the bed and became blood stained from SB's gsw's to his hand and head.   

Why would DB leave the blood stained gloves in SB's bedroom?  Why not hide them or put them in the washing machine with the rest of the washing eg the green jumper? 

DB apparently passed out shortly after he discovered his family dead/murdered and attributed the bruises and marks to a collision with furniture.  Dr Pryde who examined DB at around 11pm didn't observe any scratches to his chest.  These marks were supposedly observed days later by a prison officer.

We see the same thing in JB's case where AP claims he observed small marks on JB's hands and yet the CoA  refuted this claim.  Even AE observed on her record cards JB's hands and arms were free from any marks.  EP inspected JB's hands at a much later date using a special light and found no marks.  And yet SC's unexplained graze to her abdomen is written off as irrelevant.

I don't think DB would have taken too kindly to his brother if he abused his newly bought opera gloves. The rifle was heavily smeared so maybe the gloves were used to wipe it down, but in the spaced-out condition he claimed to be in, DB simply forgot about washing them with the other laundry.

DB might not have removed his shirt for the examining doctor, whereas he'd no alternative for the strip-search.

Clothes not items according to the further amended Binnie Report...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 05:56:12 PM
I don't think DB would have taken too kindly to his brother if he abused his newly bought opera gloves. The rifle was heavily smeared so maybe the gloves were used to wipe it down, but in the spaced-out condition he claimed to be in, DB simply forgot about washing them with the other laundry.

DB might not have removed his shirt for the examining doctor, whereas he'd no alternative for the strip-search.

Clothes not items according to the further amended Binnie Report...

Where did the blood smearing on the rifle come from?  Was SB beaten with it?  I thought he was strangled with his own tshirt? 

I would like to see more forensic evidence on the gloves:

- blood stain analysis - what do the stains represent?  Ie the perp wearing?  Wiping some surface eg rifle?  Or innocent contamination from SB?  Or something else?

- GSR testing

Blood stains on RB's hands were not tested.  Nor scrapings taken from under his nails which may have revealed white cotton fibres from the gloves and/or SB's blood.

Afaik the gloves were not damaged other than the blood stains so I guess this rules out SB wearing them given the gsw to his hand.

According to the vid by Ian Cullen, Dr Pryde carried out a thorough examination of DB on the day of the murders even examining his penis.   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
DB said when he first returned he didn't turn the lights on.  I can relate to this as I sometimes go out running early in the morning and return when it's still dark.  I often do things in darkness or half dark as I don't like bright lights on straight away.  Plus the lights on can wake others up who are still sleeping. 

Which pot was the key in brown or blue?  It looks to me like it would be possible to lift the lid remove the key drop the lid and keep everything else in position including the stress ball if that's what it is.   

I haven't listened to the MB podcasts but will do later time permitting - thanks for uploading. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Beynen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Beynen)

Even with the bedroom light off he must surely have noticed his wardrobe door was wide open and rifle missing, when a search for it should have kicked in, instead of him faffing about washing dirty laundry first.

The hidden key pot was situated well away from the "gun cupboard" (yes, another one) on a writing table/desk, up against the western wall. M van Beynen called the yellow and white ball a hacky sack. If you look closely at the room photo around the centre back of the table there's a small white square. In the close-up photo, this is the piece of paper leaning against the blue egg-shaped pot, but the key was missing from its usual hiding place, in the brown square one to the left.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 06:24:19 PM
Where did the blood smearing on the rifle come from?  Was SB beaten with it?  I thought he was strangled with his own tshirt? 

I would like to see more forensic evidence on the gloves:

- blood stain analysis - what do the stains represent?  Ie the perp wearing?  Wiping some surface eg rifle?  Or innocent contamination from SB?  Or something else?

- GSR testing

Blood stains on RB's hands were not tested.  Nor scrapings taken from under his nails which may have revealed white cotton fibres from the gloves and/or SB's blood.

Afaik the gloves were not damaged other than the blood stains so I guess this rules out SB wearing them given the gsw to his hand.

According to the vid by Ian Cullen, Dr Pryde carried out a thorough examination of DB on the day of the murders even examining his penis.

Good point!

I don't think anyone was beaten with the rifle, the blood simply splashed on it in the terrific fight with Stephen, and the gloves caused smearing during, and after if they were used to wipe it down. He was known to a scrapper, defending himself well in arguments at school.

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 06:48:10 PM
Even with the bedroom light off he must surely have noticed his wardrobe door was wide open and rifle missing, when a search for it should have kicked in, instead of him faffing about washing dirty laundry first.

The hidden key pot was situated well away from the "gun cupboard" (yes, another one) on a writing table/desk, up against the western wall. M van Beynen called the yellow and white ball a hacky sack. If you look closely at the room photo around the centre back of the table there's a small white square. In the close-up photo, this is the piece of paper leaning against the blue egg-shaped pot, but the key was missing from its usual hiding place, in the brown square one to the left.

You are assuming he closed his wardrobe door.  They may well have been left open.  In fact the golf bag looks like it would prevent closure.  If the rifle was kept in the wardrobe then surely it must have been propped up against the back or sides.  It would not be free-standing in the front.  Therefore unlilkely he would notice it missing even with light on.

I think it would be possible to lift the lid on the brown pot, remove the key and put the lid down without disturbing anything.  Cartridges were found in RB's campervan.  Is it possible he had a spare key?  Or even had one cut?  When was the rifle purchased?  I don't see how anything can be read into this either way?  I'm not even sure what the argument is here?  If RB he would leave a mess eg bits disturbed and lid off pot?  Hmmm maybe but then surely if DB was setting the scene he might think along those lines too!?

What do you think about MB being responsible and DB moving the rifle to put the blame on his father and save his mother's reputation?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 07:06:20 PM
I've just listened to podcast 2:  Mrs Bain, the Diary and the Devil. 

It seems clear Mrs Bain was seriously mentally unwell.  She spent days, or longer, in bed; made her own medicines consisting of urine and phlegm; saw the Devil everywhere; was very overweight and desperate to resume her sex life with her husband.  All commentators refer to the properties as dirty and uhygienic.  At one stage she was living outside in the caravan as she thought the Devil was in the house.  This women was in desperate need of psychiatric treatment.

Many said the children run around naked in PNG.  Sounds to me the children should have been removed by social services but maybe they were all able to fall under the radar in PNG.  DB and Arawa could barely read and write when they returned to Dunedin.  So much for their mother's home schooling.       

Is it possible Mrs Bain was the perp and DB moved the rifle to spare his mother's reputation?  Hence her lens in SB's bedroom? 

Fascinating that these two cases of familcide with sole surviving sons also have matriarchs with mental illness, obsessed with the Devil and Christianity.   

The Bambers actually seem quite 'normal' compared with the Bains.

MB wouldn't have known one end of a rifle from the other, (now where have I read that somewhere before?). It was David's rifle, and he was the licence holder.

DB borrowed MB's spare spectacles after he fell outside and damaged his own during choir practice the previous Thursday. He wore them on the Sunday night prior to the murders, but at the first trial his lawyer said that David had told him he had only used them months before. The lawyer thought this so so serious, he advised the opposition of what he'd said, but the latter didn't pursue it in court.

MB's damaged specs and loose right lens were found on a chair in David's room, whereas the missing left lens was discovered on the floor in Stephen's room under an anorak near his body.

MB had no blood on her person other than her own from a single eye shot, therefore none from any fight with Stephen.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 07:09:10 PM
Far fewer gsw's in the Bain case compared with WHF and yet far more blood present?  Footprints and blood smears around door frames?  Same calibre rifle and velocity of bullets.  I'm assuming all the bloodstains found within the property originated from SB?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 07:18:43 PM
You are assuming he closed his wardrobe door.  They may well have been left open.  In fact the golf bag looks like it would prevent closure.  If the rifle was kept in the wardrobe then surely it must have been propped up against the back or sides.  It would not be free-standing in the front.  Therefore unlilkely he would notice it missing even with light on.

I think it would be possible to lift the lid on the brown pot, remove the key and put the lid down without disturbing anything.  Cartridges were found in RB's campervan.  Is it possible he had a spare key?  Or even had one cut?  When was the rifle purchased?  I don't see how anything can be read into this either way?  I'm not even sure what the argument is here?  If RB he would leave a mess eg bits disturbed and lid off pot?  Hmmm maybe but then surely if DB was setting the scene he might think along those lines too!?

What do you think about MB being responsible and DB moving the rifle to put the blame on his father and save his mother's reputation?

One cartridge, a few spent dusty casings and a used target in the caravan, wasn't it?, thought to have no relation to the shootings but from when David first bought the rifle and they were setting it up together.  Robin Bain, like his wife and family, was a hoarder.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 07:21:16 PM
Far fewer gsw's in the Bain case compared with WHF and yet far more blood present?  Footprints and blood smears around door frames?  Same calibre rifle and velocity of bullets.  I'm assuming all the bloodstains found within the property originated from SB?

Stephen's room was swimming in it, the others went unknowingly to their deaths with much less spilled.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 07:25:25 PM
MB wouldn't have known one end of a rifle from the other, (now where have I read that somewhere before?). It was David's rifle, and he was the licence holder.

DB borrowed MB's spare spectacles after he fell outside and damaged his own during choir practice the previous Thursday. He wore them on the Sunday night prior to the murders, but at the first trial his lawyer said that David had told him he had only used them months before. The lawyer thought this so so serious, he advised the opposition of what he'd said, but the latter didn't pursue it in court.

MB's damaged specs and loose right lens were found on a chair in David's room, whereas the missing left lens was discovered on the floor in Stephen's room under an anorak near his body.

MB had no blood on her person other than her own from a single eye shot, therefore none from any fight with Stephen.

But apparently RB helped DB sight the rifle.  How do you account for the cartridges (spent or unspent) in his campervan?

Yes I understand the implication of the lens/glasses.  I guess the inference is that DB engaged in the fight with SB and the glasses came off and the lens dislodged.  He then replaced the glasses in his bedroom and forgot about the lens.  But it seems the prosecution wants it both ways eg washed the green jumper but was careless and left behind the blood stained gloves and dislodged lens. 

RB didn't have any blood on his person either, did he?!  Well he did actually have a speck on a nail that wasn't analysed. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 08, 2017, 07:33:00 PM
Stephen's room was swimming in it, the others went unknowingly to their deaths with much less spilled.

Yes but I think SB only sustained one gsw?  It went through his hand and somehow grazed his head too.  Cause of death was strangulation?   This makes you wonder about the "violent struggle" in the kitchen at WHF with so little blood?  NB sustained 7 gsw's and had to walk from upstairs to the kitchen.  Although I will concede NB didn't sustain any exit wounds, unlike SB, and it's these wounds which bleed profusely hence all the blood in the main bedroom from June's exit gsw's.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 08, 2017, 09:17:10 PM
Yes but I think SB only sustained one gsw?  It went through his hand and somehow grazed his head too.  Cause of death was strangulation?   This makes you wonder about the "violent struggle" in the kitchen at WHF with so little blood?  NB sustained 7 gsw's and had to walk from upstairs to the kitchen.  Although I will concede NB didn't sustain any exit wounds, unlike SB, and it's these wounds which bleed profusely hence all the blood in the main bedroom from June's exit gsw's.

Stephen was shot through the top of his head, in addition to the hand and resultant head graze - two bullets.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 08, 2017, 10:24:08 PM
David Bain had little money, no regular income apart from his paper round, and was irritated by the lack of any progress being made in the construction of a new home which his mother had drawn up and submitted plans for.  Allegedly, Robin Bain wasn't as enthusiastic about the project, and his eldest son increasingly flexed his muscle in the Bain household to dominate his younger siblings. What easier way out than to get rid of them all in order to improve his dire situation with the money set aside by his parents for the rebuild.

Why would Robin leave that cryptic computer message praising David over all the others, when in fact Stephen and Arawa were getting on just fine with their father and their own lives at school and college?  It only makes sense if David typed it on the computer, rather than writing it out longhand to avoid any suspicion that the message was his.

After finishing his paper round, what does David do?  Washes his "black hands", switches on the washing machine, then goes back upstairs into his bedroom, notices his wardrobe door open with numerous bullets, an empty ammo box and his rifle trigger lock with key scattered on the floor... but no rifle.  He must have gone searching for it and discovered his family's bodies, but then stalls for 20 minutes before calling for help!  What would any sensible son who cared about his family do on discovering such carnage?  That's right... call emergency services asap, or go find the nearest passer-by or neighbour to raise the alarm. The long delay makes no sense!

When interviewed by police, he claimed that he hadn't seen Stephen's, Laniet's or Arawa's bodies, only those of his mum and dad, yet in the 111 call he repeated FIVE times that ALL his family were dead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HsjKDSaKA)

In court, he contradicted himself again by stating that he heard Laniet gurgling when he went into her room, but in 2012 told Justice Binnie he had no recall of any gurgling!!!

http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling (http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence/david-stated-that-he-heard-laniet-gurgling)

Those were only three slip-ups, but there are just too many other contradictions for me to believe anything other than David Bain was responsible.
Gurgling is extremely common. Paramedics who attend accidents describe it all the time. Dempster emailed the court before the second trial reversing his testimony because he had encountered an identical scenario in another death. The gurgling was thus discounted as meaning anything.Always figure why a guilty man would raise an obscure point that would incriminate.
The case is over, Robin Bain killed his family then himself just like Sheila Caffel.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 09, 2017, 10:21:01 AM
Gurgling is extremely common. Paramedics who attend accidents describe it all the time. Dempster emailed the court before the second trial reversing his testimony because he had encountered an identical scenario in another death. The gurgling was thus discounted as meaning anything.Always figure why a guilty man would raise an obscure point that would incriminate.
The case is over, Robin Bain killed his family then himself just like Sheila Caffel.

I know little about the case and I'm sure if I knew more the answer to the following question would be obvious based on the SoC but is it possible MB was responsible and DB relocated the rifle etc to save his mother's reputation?

Samson I'm surprised more hasn't been made about the level of dysfunction within the family.  Surely there's an argument the children should have been removed from the Bains long before the murders or at the very least the family required monitoring by social services? 

It's difficult to know what came first mental illness or religious mania but IMO the matriarchs within the Bain and Bamber families suffered both and it had an adverse effect on other family members.  Within these outwardly respectable middle class families the matriarchs version of Christianity was as dangerous as Islamic extremism. 

Low socio economic families are easily picked up on: drink, drugs, criminality, violence etc but the above just seem to fall under the radar. 

IMO it's way too simple to think DB or JB murdered for money against the background.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 09, 2017, 12:05:27 PM
Stephen was shot through the top of his head, in addition to the hand and resultant head graze - two bullets.

Ok thanks I wasn't sure.  And the other victims all sustained 1 gsw including RB?  Quite a contrast with WHF where all sustained multiple gsw's.  The rifle and ammo used in both were similar: .22 semi-auto and sub-sonic bullets.  It is often said JB underestimated the rifle hence multiple gsw's required but with the Bains we can see that wasn't the case.  Head shots were lethal.  Of course those who believe JB guilty will say he fired indiscrimately to 'set the scene' and create an illusion of an amateurish SC going mad!   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 09, 2017, 12:35:22 PM
Gurgling is extremely common. Paramedics who attend accidents describe it all the time. Dempster emailed the court before the second trial reversing his testimony because he had encountered an identical scenario in another death. The gurgling was thus discounted as meaning anything.Always figure why a guilty man would raise an obscure point that would incriminate.
The case is over, Robin Bain killed his family then himself just like Sheila Caffel.

There's no doubt in my mind SC took her own life and I'm inclined to think RB went the same way.

The problem is these cases take on a life of their own and even when convictions are overturned there will still be some, lay and professional, who will continue to stand by the original verdict.  Unfortunately very few cases are as clear cut as the case of Stefan Kiszko where there's indisputable forensic evidence.   

In the cases of DB and JB mistakes were made over the gathering of evidence and destruction of exhibits.

Amazing that the NZ gov invited Justice Binnie from Canada to conduct a review of DB's claim for compensation.  It appears the NZ gov didn't like his conclusions and so invite a homegrown QC, Robert Fisher, to conduct a review who severely criticises Justice Binnie's review!  Why not just say this is the outcome we're looking for can you provide it?  If not don't bother!  If I was Justice Binnie I would be  8()(((@#
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 09, 2017, 12:56:58 PM
There's no doubt in my mind SC took her own life and I'm inclined to think RB went the same way.

Unfortunately, in the WHF case, the forensics don't support that view.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 09, 2017, 01:34:46 PM
Unfortunately, in the WHF case, the forensics don't support that view.

I believe much of what was presented at trial was incomplete and at times false.  We will have to be patient and see what any new appeal throws up. 

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 09, 2017, 04:18:24 PM
MB wouldn't have known one end of a rifle from the other, (now where have I read that somewhere before?). It was David's rifle, and he was the licence holder.

DB borrowed MB's spare spectacles after he fell outside and damaged his own during choir practice the previous Thursday. He wore them on the Sunday night prior to the murders, but at the first trial his lawyer said that David had told him he had only used them months before. The lawyer thought this so so serious, he advised the opposition of what he'd said, but the latter didn't pursue it in court.

MB's damaged specs and loose right lens were found on a chair in David's room, whereas the missing left lens was discovered on the floor in Stephen's room under an anorak near his body.

MB had no blood on her person other than her own from a single eye shot, therefore none from any fight with Stephen.

I think I recall reading DB used the rifle for bunny hunting?  No one seems to have suggested RB would not have the prerequisite skills to load the mag, operate the rifle and take aim at the victims.  And yet there's no evidence he had any more or less experience with firearms than SC?  It seems RB assisted DB to sight the rifle but SC was around firearms and those that use them during her childhood and adulthood at WHF.  Is this a sexist thing?  Ie no one questions a scruffy middle-aged man's ability in this regard but an attractive woman who took care of her appearance by way of her nails etc was in 1985/86 seen as too incompetent?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 10, 2017, 01:05:26 PM
The bit I find puzzling is why David Bain didn't immediately telephone the police or run out for help when he found the first body.  That twenty minute time delay is very significant imo as was his behaviour when the police first arrived.  It all adds up to one big can of worms in my view.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 01:29:59 PM
Listening to the following got me thinking about MB as the perp with DB re-setting the scene to absolve his mother.

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil

It features a psychologist and educational consultant who was acquainted with RB and agreed to help the family.  She visited the home once only and described it is as dirty and cluttered with dirty underpants mixed up with old food and fat dripping down walls.  The children run around naked and she described the scene as "chaos".  She agreed to interview each member of the family and make reccommendations as to what type of therapy was required.  She described MB as the dangerous one who wanted to get inside everyone's mind and control them and describes a pathological dysfunction never before witnessed.  MB apparently talked non-stop and didn't appear to listen and was worried her children were developing their own thoughts and no longer under her control.  She also constantly put RB down and yet she wanted to resume her sex life with him!?   &%+((£

The parents apparently thought the outside world was full of evil and they created a wonderful protective environment from outside influences for their children. 

She also described RB as pathologically dysfunctional. 

She described DB as close to his mother and the only one of the children who showed respect towards his father.

It seems to me the parents were suffering from depression and mental illness and one or the other was reponsible for the murders. 

65 Every street was set out on two levels.  MB, DB, LB and SB slept upstairs and AB downstairs.  RB slept outside the property in a campervan. 

The order of the shootings has never been established.  If MB was the perp with DB out on his paper round and RB still in his campervan this wound mean MB would need to shoot 2 victims upstairs: LB and SB and 1 victim downstairs: AB.  She would then wait until RB entered in the morning as per his normal routine and shoot him.  This is far more doable imo than either RB or DB shooting three victims upstairs: MB, LB and SB and 1 victim downstairs: AB. 

The bloody footprints, which measured 280mm, were mostly just outside and inside MB's bedroom.  RB's foot was said to measure 270mm and DB's 300mm.  Did the 280mm represent MB's foot?

This could explain so much:

- A right-handed person 'committing suicide' with a gunshot to the left temple. 

- DB's delay in calling emergency services

- DB's fingerprints supposedly found in blood on the rifle. 

- MB sustained a gsw to the eye "an eye for an eye"!

I don't know much about the case so Samson will probably be able to blow the above out of the water with one sentence.   Also would a very overweight MB be in a position to overpower SB?  But this might explain the blood smears around the door frames from a large person blustering around. 

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 01:50:29 PM
The bit I find puzzling is why David Bain didn't immediately telephone the police or run out for help when he found the first body.  That twenty minute time delay is very significant imo as was his behaviour when the police first arrived.  It all adds up to one big can of worms in my view.

As I understand it he returned from his paper round and assumed the victims were still sleeping in their respective bedrooms as usual.  He was assigned various chores by his mother of which one was the laundry so he got on with doing this before he was aware anything was amiss. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 10, 2017, 01:51:24 PM
The bit I find puzzling is why David Bain didn't immediately telephone the police or run out for help when he found the first body.  That twenty minute time delay is very significant imo as was his behaviour when the police first arrived.  It all adds up to one big can of worms in my view.
There's an awful lot that's puzzling, not just a bit!  DB wouldn't even let the police in the house after he phoned the emergency number for help, so they had to break a glass pane to the right of the door to let themselves in. In that call he repeated numerous times that ALL his family were dead, but in a police interview with Det.Sgt Greg Dunne the following day, he stated that he'd ONLY seen the bodies of his parents, even when asked to confirm, and hadn't even noticed the rifle lying by the side of his dad, but was still near enough to see blood on his face!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk&feature=youtu.be&t=4m (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhQJCJCZtk&feature=youtu.be&t=4m)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 10, 2017, 01:58:26 PM
As I understand it he returned from his paper round and assumed the victims were still sleeping in their respective bedrooms as usual.  He was assigned various chores by his mother of which one was the laundry so he got on with doing this before he was aware anything was amiss.
... and didn't notice any blood on clothes left in the laundry basket, but left fingerprints on the side of the Hoover toploader and blood on the washing powder container sitting on the shelf above. Furthermore, he claimed that he separated whites from coloureds, yet when police hung them out to dry they were all in the same wash.

The laundry/washroom showing Hoover toploader with laundry basket in front, and shelf with "Will Power" washing powder which had a blood stain on it...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 10, 2017, 02:09:54 PM
Listening to the following got me thinking about MB as the perp with DB re-setting the scene to absolve his mother.

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil (http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil)

It features a psychologist and educational consultant who was acquainted with RB and agreed to help the family.  She visited the home once only and described it is as dirty and cluttered with dirty underpants mixed up with old food and fat dripping down walls.  The children run around naked and she described the scene as "chaos".  She agreed to interview each member of the family and make reccommendations as to what type of therapy was required.  She described MB as the dangerous one who wanted to get inside everyone's mind and control them and describes a pathological dysfunction never before witnessed.  MB apparently talked non-stop and didn't appear to listen and was worried her children were developing their own thoughts and no longer under her control.  She also constantly put RB down and yet she wanted to resume her sex life with him!?   &%+((£

The parents apparently thought the outside world was full of evil and they created a wonderful protective environment from outside influences for their children. 

She also described RB as pathologically dysfunctional. 

She described DB as close to his mother and the only one of the children who showed respect towards his father.

It seems to me the parents were suffering from depression and mental illness and one or the other was reponsible for the murders. 

65 Every street was set out on two levels.  MB, DB, LB and SB slept upstairs and AB downstairs.  RB slept outside the property in a campervan. 

The order of the shootings has never been established.  If MB was the perp with DB out on his paper round and RB still in his campervan this wound mean MB would need to shoot 2 victims upstairs: LB and SB and 1 victim downstairs: AB.  She would then wait until RB entered in the morning as per his normal routine and shoot him.  This is far more doable imo than either RB or DB shooting three victims upstairs: MB, LB and SB and 1 victim downstairs: AB. 

The bloody footprints, which measured 280mm, were mostly just outside and inside MB's bedroom.  RB's foot was said to measure 270mm and DB's 300mm.  Did the 280mm represent MB's foot?

This could explain so much:

- A right-handed person 'committing suicide' with a gunshot to the left temple. 

- DB's delay in calling emergency services

- DB's fingerprints supposedly found in blood on the rifle. 

- MB sustained a gsw to the eye "an eye for an eye"!

I don't know much about the case so Samson will probably be able to blow the above out of the water with one sentence.   Also would a very overweight MB be in a position to overpower SB?  But this might explain the blood smears around the door frames from a large person blustering around.

He travelled to school in his Commer van, but slept in a dilapidated caravan in the back garden. It was situated to the north of the house (to the left in the aerial view). In the caravan photo you can make out a gable end and chimney of the house (north side) at the top right hand corner. The rotary clothes drier on which police hung out the spun washing is just visible to the bottom of the aerial view.

ETA: a larger aerial view of the Bain house and grounds, with caravan in back garden and Commer campervan in drive.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 02:15:25 PM
He travelled to school in his Commer van, but slept in a dilapidated caravan in the back garden. It was situated to the north of the house (to the left in the aerial view). In the caravan photo you can make out a gable end and chimney of the house (north side) at the top right hand corner. The rotary clothes drier on which police hung out the spun washing is just visible to the bottom of the aerial view.

Thanks.  You shattered my illusion  8(8-))
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 10, 2017, 02:33:31 PM
Thanks.  You shattered my illusion  8(8-))

The reality...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 04:11:24 PM
... and didn't notice any blood on clothes left in the laundry basket, but left fingerprints on the side of the Hoover toploader and blood on the washing powder container sitting on the shelf above. Furthermore, he claimed that he separated whites from coloureds, yet when police hung them out to dry they were all in the same wash.

The laundry/washroom showing Hoover toploader with laundry basket in front, and shelf with "Will Power" washing powder which had a blood stain on it...

From IB's report:

6. The Palm Print on the Washing Machine

352. In his examination of the laundry area, a “faint” palm print was identified on the
washing machine. Mr Jones did not note in his initial examination that this print was reddish
[bloodlike] in colour, but later work identified the palm print as David’s and likely it was blood.
David Bain told the Police when first interviewed on 20 June that he had put on a load of “dark”
clothing in the washer on his return from the paper route. It is common ground that clothing
included the bloody outer clothing worn by the killer – including (possibly) the socks and
(definitely) the green V‐necked sweater which matched fibres found under Stephen’s finger
nails. While David Bain did not notice the blood on the dark clothing in the dimly lit laundry (as
already noted, one of the detectives later went to turn on the light in that room only to
discover the light was already on), it is no doubt likely that in handling clothing with blood on it
some of the blood came off on his hands, which likely transferred to the washing machine when
he touched it. He says he did not wash his hands after putting on the laundry, so some blood
from the load of clothing must have persisted there for some time to a greater or lesser extent.
The evidence is not exculpatory but nor do I find it inculpatory in light of David Bain’s
acknowledged handling of the bloodied “coloured” clothing in the laundry basket and the
likelihood of innocent transfer.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 04:58:47 PM
I think I recall reading DB used the rifle for bunny hunting?  No one seems to have suggested RB would not have the prerequisite skills to load the mag, operate the rifle and take aim at the victims.  And yet there's no evidence he had any more or less experience with firearms than SC?  It seems RB assisted DB to sight the rifle but SC was around firearms and those that use them during her childhood and adulthood at WHF.  Is this a sexist thing?  Ie no one questions a scruffy middle-aged man's ability in this regard but an attractive woman who took care of her appearance by way of her nails etc was in 1985/86 seen as too incompetent?

I stand corrected, albeit by myself!  After further reading it appears all concerned agreed RB had a greater familiarity with firearms than DB had. 

In any event what it does show is that a .22 with subsonic ammo is potentially lethal with one gsw to the head.  Therefore the number of gunshots fired at WHF was unnecessary unless the perp was unfamiliar with firearms or the perp wanted to create the illusion the perp was unfamiliar with firearms!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 10, 2017, 06:48:22 PM
... or his parents were already aware that someone was sneaking about in the house because Crispy barked, or they heard the shower room sash window open and/or toiletries being knocked of its sill, so were in the act of getting out of bed to investigate. Instead of a perfect plan of them being shot cleanly and instantly in the head whilst asleep, they became moving targets, June hit mostly on her right side and Nevill in the face, both while sitting upright. I don't think there's any mileage in the idea that JB shot hapazardly on purpose to implicate Sheila... that would definitely have put the plan at risk of failure. He was just shocked that they were awake and fired off in the hope that some bullets would be on target in the split seconds available in an unlit room.  As he'd never killed anyone before, JB was only a novice would-be assassin.

Anyway an interesting observation that both cases involve 5 murders or 4 murders/suicide (both the latter imo) and all died by a .22 calibre semi-auto rifle with subsonic ammo and yet:

- A total of 25 or 26 bullets were used at WHF and only 7 at ES.

Other notable differences:

- Numerous blood drips on flooring at WHF from June and NB's GSW's.  Unaware of any at ES (Every Street) probably because victims didn't move from location/room they were shot in other than SB and he remained within his own bedroom.

- No footprints at WHF.  Several footprints in blood at ES.  Most probably SB's blood which the perp carried on his/her foot.

- The prosecution claim a "violent struggle" took place at WHF and yet there was little blood in the vicinity save a smear around tiles near the Aga and on the kitchen work top.   Defence and prosecution agree a "violent struggle" took place in SB's bedroom at ES and much blood was spilled evidenced by numerous blood stained objects including the bed and door frame.   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 11, 2017, 06:52:49 PM
Have you listened to episode 9 of MvB's podcast about David Bain's arm tattoo?... on how he misled Ian Binnie about when he had it done, some 18 months before the murders after the council put down his dog for biting a postman and he wanted something to remember it by.  Helen Bennett, who was interviewed recently by MvB said she tattooed him about a week before the murders and he paid by signed cheque (Bain). He also misled his aunt Jane Clark, and girlfriend about the timing.

Tattooist Helen Bennett interview. Scroll down to Episode 9... https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/evidence/)

"Recovered Memories" podcast discussing his tattoo from 24m:08s... http://stuff.libsyn.com/recovered-memories (http://stuff.libsyn.com/recovered-memories)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 11, 2017, 07:15:56 PM
I stand corrected, albeit by myself!  After further reading it appears all concerned agreed RB had a greater familiarity with firearms than DB had. 

In any event what it does show is that a .22 with subsonic ammo is potentially lethal with one gsw to the head.  Therefore the number of gunshots fired at WHF was unnecessary unless the perp was unfamiliar with firearms or the perp wanted to create the illusion the perp was unfamiliar with firearms!
With the Bain family bedrooms being so cluttered, it's a miracle that so few bullets were needed to finish them off.

In Laniet's room the perp either fired from a distance, his way being blocked by the drawing-board chair and ironing board, hence three shots required, or he moved the ironing board sideways to get in closer.

In Arawa's room the way was blocked by a whacking great post, but she must have heard some noise from the fracas upstairs, Stephen's fight say, and was out of bed to make the assassin's job easier, only needing one bullet.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: puglove on August 12, 2017, 11:17:37 PM
With the Bain family bedrooms being so cluttered, it's a miracle that so few bullets were needed to finish them off.

In Laniet's room the perp either fired from a distance, his way being blocked by the drawing-board chair and ironing board, hence three shots required, or he moved the ironing board sideways to get in closer.

In Arawa's room the way was blocked by a whacking great post, but she must have heard some noise from the fracas upstairs, Stephen's fight say, and was out of bed to make the assassin's job easier, only needing one bullet.

Here we go again.    &%&£(+

So Stephen had fibres from the green jersey underneath his fingernails?

Even if Samson's ramblings hadn't automatically alerted me to DB's guilt, I would have got there eventually. It's obvious.

Myster, best-beloved, what is the relevance of the hot water bottle?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 13, 2017, 10:04:52 AM
Here we go again.    &%&£(+

So Stephen had fibres from the green jersey underneath his fingernails?

Even if Samson's ramblings hadn't automatically alerted me to DB's guilt, I would have got there eventually. It's obvious.

Myster, best-beloved, what is the relevance of the hot water bottle?

No idea why the hot water bottle was so important, other than it being early winter in NZ on 20th June and freezing cold overnight in Dunedin.  Think all the family must have had a "Fashy" each... there was one in Arawa's cluttered bedroom, as well as in Robin's musty hovel.

But... if we are expected to believe that Robin Bain was the killer, he must have walked out of the kitchen door and down to his battered old caravan to change his bloodied clothes, because he didn't bargain on Stephen putting up such fierce resistance and hadn't brought any spare clean rigout to the house in advance. Having redressed, Robin (being a tidy man!), then bundles up his stained green jersey, tracksuit bottoms, socks, etc. and returns to the washroom, drops them all into the laundry basket ready for his son's attention, who, apart from being "the only one who deserved to stay", was also the muggins left behind to clean up the bloody mess his beleaguered father had created.

Robin then washes his hands, makes his way back upstairs, takes hold of the rifle again which is smeared all over with Stephen's blood but manages to get none of it on his damp hands and on the computer keyboard, to type that brief impersonal suicide note.  Why not leave something handwritten and more appropriate, such as...

My dear David,

I'm so very sorry it had to end like this, because although Laniet was my special favourite and Arawa and Stephen the apples of my eye, you are the only one who deserves to live... despite the argument we had at weekend over who should have the chainsaw, and that you were fuming over the load of soil I dumped on your precious groundwork, and you felt that I should no longer be part of this family, living in the communal sanctuary which Margaret and yourself had planned.

Your ever loving father, Robin.


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: APRIL on August 13, 2017, 11:46:27 AM
No idea why the hot water bottle was so important, other than it being early winter in NZ on 20th June and freezing cold overnight in Dunedin.  Think all the family must have had a "Fashy" each... there was one in Arawa's cluttered bedroom, as well as in Robin's musty hovel.

But... if we are expected to believe that Robin Bain was the killer, he must have walked out of the kitchen door and down to his battered old caravan to change his bloodied clothes, because he didn't bargain on Stephen putting up such fierce resistance and hadn't brought any spare clean rigout to the house in advance. Having redressed, Robin (being a tidy man!), then bundles up his stained green jersey, tracksuit bottoms, socks, etc. and returns to the washroom, drops them all into the laundry basket ready for his son's attention, who, apart from being "the only one who deserved to stay", was also the muggins left behind to clean up the bloody mess his beleaguered father had created.

Robin then washes his hands, makes his way back upstairs, takes hold of the rifle again which is smeared all over with Stephen's blood but manages to get none of it on his damp hands and on the computer keyboard, to type that brief impersonal suicide note.  Why not leave something handwritten and more appropriate, such as...

My dear David,

I'm so very sorry it had to end like this, because although Laniet was my special favourite and Arawa and Stephen the apples of my eye, you are the only one who deserves to live... despite the argument we had at weekend over who should have the chainsaw, and that you were fuming over the load of soil I dumped on your precious groundwork, and you felt that I should no longer be part of this family, living in the communal sanctuary which Margaret and yourself had planned.

Your ever loving father, Robin.


I know less than nothing about this case, but what I can tell you is that there's a very strong edge of sarcasm in that alleged suicide note that I don't believe would have been included by an about to commit suicide father to his son.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 13, 2017, 12:12:14 PM
I know less than nothing about this case, but what I can tell you is that there's a very strong edge of sarcasm in that alleged suicide note that I don't believe would have been included by an about to commit suicide father to his son.
April, in contrast, I know more than everything about this case.
Robin Bain was the most frequent and able user of the computer.
Earlier in the evening Laniet, had explained to her mother Margaret that Robin was having sex with her. They agreed to confront Robin, who of course realised that his life was effectively over. That explains the row David explained he heard from downstairs while trying to sleep in advance of his 5 30am paper round.
CCTV footage and bank records show Laniet and Margaret withdrawing maximal cash from a machine around midnight. They have  never done this before of course. This is a fact no one challenges.
Robin never went to the caravan that night but stayed up drinking coffee and keeping the fire going. When David left for the paper round he was unaware of his father upstairs and the cash withdrawal. Robin then shot the women and strangled Stephen. As David's return became imminent, he confronted the inevitable, switched on the computer, fast typed the message that he never planned, and shot himself. It is a bit like the classic Cat in the Hat narrative, mom walking up the garden path just after all the drama.
Poor David, snatched from a safe home like Jeremy Bamber by the conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 13, 2017, 12:16:39 PM
Here we go again.    &%&£(+

So Stephen had fibres from the green jersey underneath his fingernails?

Even if Samson's ramblings hadn't automatically alerted me to DB's guilt, I would have got there eventually. It's obvious.

Myster, best-beloved, what is the relevance of the hot water bottle?
puglove, you are welcome to your opinions, but not your own facts. Sorry honey, you are out of your depth in this case.
 8**8:/:
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: APRIL on August 13, 2017, 05:55:36 PM
April, in contrast, I know more than everything about this case.
Robin Bain was the most frequent and able user of the computer.
Earlier in the evening Laniet, had explained to her mother Margaret that Robin was having sex with her. They agreed to confront Robin, who of course realised that his life was effectively over. That explains the row David explained he heard from downstairs while trying to sleep in advance of his 5 30am paper round.
CCTV footage and bank records show Laniet and Margaret withdrawing maximal cash from a machine around midnight. They have  never done this before of course. This is a fact no one challenges.
Robin never went to the caravan that night but stayed up drinking coffee and keeping the fire going. When David left for the paper round he was unaware of his father upstairs and the cash withdrawal. Robin then shot the women and strangled Stephen. As David's return became imminent, he confronted the inevitable, switched on the computer, fast typed the message that he never planned, and shot himself. It is a bit like the classic Cat in the Hat narrative, mom walking up the garden path just after all the drama.
Poor David, snatched from a safe home like Jeremy Bamber by the conspiracy theorists.

Samson, I don't know who ANY of the players are in this tragedy. Their names don't matter. They could be ANYBODY. I don't care how able a computer user was the typist. I can only just manage this keyboard, but I know how to put words, sentences and paragraphs together. My point, therefore, I believe, stands. The note had a sarcastic edge not commensurate with a father writing to his son, prior to committing suicide.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 13, 2017, 07:09:37 PM
April, in contrast, I know more than everything about this case.

So you'd like to think... but nowhere near as much as MvB.

Robin Bain was the most frequent and able user of the computer.

Proves nothing... David was probably just as competent (Geez... as if Microsoft Word was complicated!), claimed he did use the PC occasionally, and it was in a family room, not exclusively Robin's even though "his influence there was greatest", whatever that riddle-me-ree was supposed to mean.

Earlier in the evening Laniet, had explained to her mother Margaret that Robin was having sex with her. They agreed to confront Robin, who of course realised that his life was effectively over. That explains the row David explained he heard from downstairs while trying to sleep in advance of his 5 30am paper round.

See Binnie Amended Report concerning alleged argument and incest allegation, "smoke but no fire" extract below.

CCTV footage and bank records show Laniet and Margaret withdrawing maximal cash from a machine around midnight. They have  never done this before of course. This is a fact no one challenges.

Again, see Binnie Amended Report - "The transfers do not seem to be particularly large or significant"


Robin never went to the caravan that night but stayed up drinking coffee and keeping the fire going.

Robin's unmade bed, which also contained his hot water bottle, had been slept in. His pale blue underpants were also on the floor by the bed, and he hadn't any on underneath the tracksuit bottoms he was found in.

When David left for the paper round he was unaware of his father upstairs and the cash withdrawal. Robin then shot the women and strangled Stephen. As David's return became imminent, he confronted the inevitable, switched on the computer, fast typed the message that he never planned, and shot himself. It is a bit like the classic Cat in the Hat narrative, mom walking up the garden path just after all the drama.

Poor David, snatched from a safe home like Jeremy Bamber by the conspiracy theorists.

The only conspiracy theorists live on Bamber's official site and on blue, of which you're a member.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 13, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
The fact remains, Robin had a stated and rationally explained motive. Dean Cottle turns out to b be an outstanding witness when allowed to talk, he was of sufficient means to provide Laniet with a cell phone back in those days. Robin was extremely familiar with the rifle, and the muzzle of the silencer was factually deemed to have been in contact with his left temple for the one shot inflicted. And this one shot was a perfect trajectory for a left hand reach for the trigger in a standing position. You can't get this into a "plan", as there is zero room for error in a fraught situation. And it was a rising shot when Robin was alleged to be kneeling.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 01:40:59 PM
Here we go again.    &%&£(+

So Stephen had fibres from the green jersey underneath his fingernails?

Even if Samson's ramblings hadn't automatically alerted me to DB's guilt, I would have got there eventually. It's obvious.

Myster, best-beloved, what is the relevance of the hot water bottle?

As per usual these things are never straightforward.  Scrapings taken from RB's fingernails were never analysed and subsequently destroyed.

You can read about police bungling from page 150 onwards:

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/201250/01Justice%20Binnies%20report.pdf
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 02:24:27 PM


I find the following from a psychologist and acquaintance of RB's pretty damning:

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil

As I've previously stated the psychologist met with each family member with a view to making recommendations.  When she assessed RB she found a shell devoid of emotion.  When she heard of the shootings her first reaction was to think RB snapped from years of MB's callousness.  Thought MB was supposed to be a Christian  &%+((£

The above took place when the family was still in PNG and at a time when MB was "desperate" to resume her sex life with RB.  Well since there's no evidence she did it sounds to me RB looked to Laniet.  It all makes for uncomfortable reading: a strong Presbyterian, scout/youth worker, school teacher, husband, family man sexually abusing his young daughter but there we have it. 
 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 02:37:50 PM
I find the following from a psychologist and acquaintance of RB's pretty damning:

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil

As I've previously stated the psychologist met with each family member with a view to making recommendations.  When she assessed RB she found a shell devoid of emotion.  When she heard of the shootings her first reaction was to think RB snapped from years of MB's callousness.  Thought MB was supposed to be a Christian  &%+((£

The above took place when the family was still in PNG and at a time when MB was "desperate" to resume her sex life with RB.  Well since there's no evidence she did it sounds to me RB looked to Laniet.  It all makes for uncomfortable reading: a strong Presbyterian, scout/youth worker, school teacher, husband, family man sexually abusing his young daughter but there we have it.

Just Googled 'incest and profile of father abusing':

http://www.survivorshandbook.com/the-incestuous-family/

When and if incest in this family comes to light, it is greeted with disbelief and incredulity and treated as no more than a temporary aberration on the part of the father/family. Abusers have the resources to hire a competent (and often aggressive) legal team which attacks the child's credibility while emphasizing the father's community and professional status. These men are rarely found guilty and in almost all cases are free to return home—most often to abuse again.

Straight out the Bain case.  Laniet is written off as a "fantasist";  DB an inheritance killer, and RB is considered too upstanding: strong Presbyterian, scout/youth worker, school teacher.

 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 14, 2017, 03:48:00 PM
Here is a good analysis albeit from a DB friendly website.

http://www.davidbaindonate.nz/police-errors/

As Binnie points out, you have 5 dead bodies and choice of motive, an argument about a chainsaw, David Bain, or an allegation of incest, Robin.
I truly believe a close analysis of this case is helpful to Jeremy Bamber.
5 dead bodies don't happen lightly, we must search for a motive.

Let me summarise again.
Jeremy and David had "plans" but in each case successful execution was vanishingly unlikely, each time a reliance on contact wounds and legitimate suicide trajectory, after leaving carnage all around, was mandated.
Yet on the other hand we were dealing with children being snatched, Sheila, exposure of a scandalous sexual dalliance, Robin.

Oh come on everyone, get real.
Good work as always Holly. It is easy when we start with the bodies and work outwards.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 04:07:27 PM
Here is a good analysis albeit from a DB friendly website.

http://www.davidbaindonate.nz/police-errors/

As Binnie points out, you have 5 dead bodies and choice of motive, an argument about a chainsaw, David Bain, or an allegation of incest, Robin.
I truly believe a close analysis of this case is helpful to Jeremy Bamber.
5 dead bodies don't happen lightly, we must search for a motive.

Let me summarise again.
Jeremy and David had "plans" but in each case successful execution was vanishingly unlikely, each time a reliance on contact wounds and legitimate suicide trajectory, after leaving carnage all around, was mandated.
Yet on the other hand we were dealing with children being snatched, Sheila, exposure of a scandalous sexual dalliance, Robin.

Oh come on everyone, get real.
Good work as always Holly. It is easy when we start with the bodies and work outwards.

I wonder about the backgrounds of RB and MB.  Did one or both suffer some sort of abuse?  These things tend to be intergenerational. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 14, 2017, 06:04:26 PM
The fact remains, Robin had a stated and rationally explained motive. Dean Cottle turns out to b be an outstanding witness when allowed to talk, he was of sufficient means to provide Laniet with a cell phone back in those days. Robin was extremely familiar with the rifle, and the muzzle of the silencer was factually deemed to have been in contact with his left temple for the one shot inflicted. And this one shot was a perfect trajectory for a left hand reach for the trigger in a standing position. You can't get this into a "plan", as there is zero room for error in a fraught situation. And it was a rising shot when Robin was alleged to be kneeling.
All this does not prove that Jeremy Bamber was similarly cheated, but it does speak to the nonsense that the optimism of youth might be replaced by a risk all strategy.

Dean Cottle was a pimp, living off the immoral earnings of his harem of hookers, so not surprising he was able to afford numerous cell phones when the average joe couldn't.  And not exactly trustworthy, as he demanded $10,000 before he would testify, and when subpoened he absconded until a warrant for his arrest brought him scuttling to the courtroom, several days too late.

There were different interpretations and configurations of how the rifle could have been held and by whom, so not  conclusive. No need to keep repeating that there was only one way.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 06:21:06 PM
Dean Cottle was a pimp, living off the immoral earnings of his harem of hookers, so not surprising he was able to afford numerous cell phones when the average joe couldn't.  And not exactly trustworthy, as he demanded $10,000 before he would testify, and when subpoened he absconded until a warrant for his arrest brought him scuttling to the courtroom, several days too late.

There were different interpretations and configurations of how the rifle could have been held and by whom, so not  conclusive. No need to keep repeating that there was only one way.

There were others too:

www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2409317/My-father-raped-me-Laniet-told-friend



Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 06:45:36 PM
I've also listened to an audio tape where a medical doctor examined Laniet and diagnosed a STD.  I think the doc also relayed the incest as told by Laniet.  I will try and find it.

This sort of thing isn't just restricted to The Fens/Broads you know!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 14, 2017, 07:04:55 PM
I don't know much about the other so-called inheritance killers eg Stephen Seddon but it strikes me that these cases are different from DB and JB in that the likes of SS were either diagnosed with a mental illness/personality disorder OR there was an absence of any mental illness/personality disorder/dysfunction amongst other family members.

Neither DB or JB have been formally diagnosed with any mental illness or personality disorder but the Bamber and Bain families were both extremely dysfunctional with other family members having serious issues. 

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 15, 2017, 06:42:46 AM
That Martin Van Beynen incest reporting has far too many witnesses to all be making it up or for Laniet to be repeating such egregious accusations with no basis. Robin paid her account at the convenience store for the first (and last) the day before she was murdered.
Why?
Motive to burn for Robin Bain.

I live in New Zealand, it seems a normally functioning place till you get these cases and common sense is out the window. 
There is something tragic about the time Van Beynen has wasted in farming for the wrong answer. He has a whole room of papers and files. What a moron.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 15, 2017, 12:20:52 PM
That Martin Van Beynen incest reporting has far too many witnesses to all be making it up or for Laniet to be repeating such egregious accusations with no basis. Robin paid her account at the convenience store for the first (and last) the day before she was murdered.
Why?
Motive to burn for Robin Bain.

I live in New Zealand, it seems a normally functioning place till you get these cases and common sense is out the window. 
There is something tragic about the time Van Beynen has wasted in farming for the wrong answer. He has a whole room of papers and files. What a moron.

As Justice Binnie said he could find the smoke but not the fire  ?>)()<  But how deep did investigating officers dig?  Samson it seems to me this family went off the rails in PNG as per the psychologist acquainted with RB and the accounts of many others.  I know sfa about the country but the UK gov has this to say about it:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/papua-new-guinea

PNG seems the sort of place a dysfunctional family like the Bains could fall off the radar.  Is it possible Laniet carried RB's child to term as per her claims, or had an abortion/miscarriage in PNG?  Did investigating officers visit PNG? 

Also Laniet's friend in the article above claims she observed stretch marks on LB's body.  Did the pathologist note such?  Dr Vanezis noted stretch marks on SC's body.

I also find it interesting that the psychologist mentioned above said MB was "desperate" to restart her sex life with RB.  This was whilst they were in PNG.  By the time they returned to Dunedin some years later the relationship seemed to have deteriorated further with RB banished to his filthy hovel of a caravan in the garden.  So possibly a sexually frustrated RB looked to his youngest daughter to satisfy his needs.  I've no doubt he was a strong Presbyterian and committed scout/youth leader/school teacher and devoted family man but unfortunately these things don't preclude incest/child sex abuse.   

You know this country has a long history of child sex abuse involving establishment figures as NZ's Justice Goddard was at one time overseeing the inquiry.  How did Jimmy Savile get away with abusing hundreds of children in hospitals, care homes and on BBC premises?  His reputation as a charity fund raiser went before him  8(8-)) ?8)@)-)  Potentially the same thing with RB imo.  Not nice to speak ill of the dead when they're not here to defend themselves but can there really be so much smoke without fire?   &%+((£

I find MVB's writing on the Bain case quite balanced.  I see he studied law at Uni Auckland.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2017, 12:30:51 PM
I've also listened to an audio tape where a medical doctor examined Laniet and diagnosed a STD.  I think the doc also relayed the incest as told by Laniet.  I will try and find it.

This sort of thing isn't just restricted to The Fens/Broads you know!

I thought I listened to an audio recording re the above.  If I did I can't find it now but here it is in writing:

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/laniet-found-it-not-easy-abstain-sex-four-days
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 16, 2017, 04:56:14 PM
As Justice Binnie said he could find the smoke but not the fire  ?>)()<  But how deep did investigating officers dig?  Samson it seems to me this family went off the rails in PNG as per the psychologist acquainted with RB and the accounts of many others.  I know sfa about the country but the UK gov has this to say about it:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/papua-new-guinea

PNG seems the sort of place a dysfunctional family like the Bains could fall off the radar.  Is it possible Laniet carried RB's child to term as per her claims, or had an abortion/miscarriage in PNG?  Did investigating officers visit PNG? 

Also Laniet's friend in the article above claims she observed stretch marks on LB's body.  Did the pathologist note such?  Dr Vanezis noted stretch marks on SC's body.

I also find it interesting that the psychologist mentioned above said MB was "desperate" to restart her sex life with RB.  This was whilst they were in PNG.  By the time they returned to Dunedin some years later the relationship seemed to have deteriorated further with RB banished to his filthy hovel of a caravan in the garden.  So possibly a sexually frustrated RB looked to his youngest daughter to satisfy his needs.  I've no doubt he was a strong Presbyterian and committed scout/youth leader/school teacher and devoted family man but unfortunately these things don't preclude incest/child sex abuse.   

You know this country has a long history of child sex abuse involving establishment figures as NZ's Justice Goddard was at one time overseeing the inquiry.  How did Jimmy Savile get away with abusing hundreds of children in hospitals, care homes and on BBC premises?  His reputation as a charity fund raiser went before him  8(8-)) ?8)@)-)  Potentially the same thing with RB imo.  Not nice to speak ill of the dead when they're not here to defend themselves but can there really be so much smoke without fire?   &%+((£

I find MVB's writing on the Bain case quite balanced.  I see he studied law at Uni Auckland.
I'm sorry Holly, MVB is a blithering idiot. Beyond redemption, a defamatory time waster who hoodwinked a minister of justice, pig with lipstick Judith Collins, and a country of the blind.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2017, 06:20:27 PM
I'm sorry Holly, MVB is a blithering idiot. Beyond redemption, a defamatory time waster who hoodwinked a minister of justice, pig with lipstick Judith Collins, and a country of the blind.

Well DB's conviction has now been quashed and he received almost 1 million NZ dollars from the NZ gov. as an 'ex-gratia' payment.  DB has since married, had a son and recently moved to Australia so I guess its case over?

Unacceptable that so many cocks up were made during the initial investigation.   

If we looked into the backgrounds/childhoods of MB and RB I wonder what we might find.  The couple were grossly dysfunctional and imo the children should have been removed from their care.  At the time of the murders the parents had been estranged for years and both lived in squalor.  It appears both suffered from depression and mental health issues.  MB's bizarre ideas had an adverse effect on everyone.  The home schooling deprived the children of a proper education so much so by the time they returned to a mainstream school they struggled to catch up and fit in socially.  LB ended up working in the sex industry and more than likely suffered child sex abuse at the hands of her father.  SB ended up in trouble with the law.  RB murdered the family and took his own life and DB spent years in prison as a MoJ.     
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 16, 2017, 07:16:32 PM
Where on earth does it say Stephen Bain got in trouble with the law?!!!.  I notice you mention nothing about former Head girl and beauty queen, Arawa, getting on well with her teacher training and almost certainly the one in the Bain household "who most definitely deserved to stay" in preference to her dropout older brother who didn't even get on with his father!   What a hoax that computer message was!

Would Arawa have thrived and achieved what she did, had she been whisked away from her family?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 17, 2017, 11:37:40 AM
Where on earth does it say Stephen Bain got in trouble with the law?!!!.  I notice you mention nothing about former Head girl and beauty queen, Arawa, getting on well with her teacher training and almost certainly the one in the Bain household "who most definitely deserved to stay" in preference to her dropout older brother who didn't even get on with his father!   What a hoax that computer message was!

Would Arawa have thrived and achieved what she did, had she been whisked away from her family?

In the MVB podcasts you kindly uploaded!!!  I think it is 3. 'A family's final days':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8397.msg418894#msg418894

Yes I accept it seems Arawa emerged unscathed from this grossly dysfunctional family but I did read somewhere claims that she also suffered child sex abuse at RB's hands.  I will endeavour to find it.  DB also seemed unscathed until the murders.  David and Arawa were the older children and it seems the family went off the rails later when LB and SB were much younger and perhaps bore the brunt of all the dysfunction at vulnerable ages.

As you know it was claimed by many that LB intended to drop bombshell news over the weekend before the murders re her work in the sex industry and an incestuous relationship with RB.  On the Sun eve DB said he was in his bedroom (bed?) and heard raised voices but was unable to identify whose or what the conversations were about.  Maybe the reason DB was spared is that he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell disclosures about incest and prostitution.  Bearing in mind DB probably went to bed early due to his early rise for his paper round.  Maybe DB was the only one who "most definitely deserved to stay" because he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell and RB's shameful secret!?   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 17, 2017, 06:07:21 PM
In the MVB podcasts you kindly uploaded!!!  I think it is 3. 'A family's final days':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8397.msg418894#msg418894 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8397.msg418894#msg418894)

Yes I accept it seems Arawa emerged unscathed from this grossly dysfunctional family but I did read somewhere claims that she also suffered child sex abuse at RB's hands.  I will endeavour to find it.  DB also seemed unscathed until the murders.  David and Arawa were the older children and it seems the family went off the rails later when LB and SB were much younger and perhaps bore the brunt of all the dysfunction at vulnerable ages.

As you know it was claimed by many that LB intended to drop bombshell news over the weekend before the murders re her work in the sex industry and an incestuous relationship with RB.  On the Sun eve DB said he was in his bedroom (bed?) and heard raised voices but was unable to identify whose or what the conversations were about.  Maybe the reason DB was spared is that he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell disclosures about incest and prostitution.  Bearing in mind DB probably went to bed early due to his early rise for his paper round.  Maybe DB was the only one who "most definitely deserved to stay" because he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell and RB's shameful secret!?   

Found it near the end of podcast 5, 37m:24s in, but MvB didn't explain further. I think it might have been because Stephen was known to be a scrapper, a bit hot-tempered and inclined to defend himself over-zealously. Maybe police were called to his school if and when a fight broke out.

http://stuff.libsyn.com/incest-blackmail-murder (http://stuff.libsyn.com/incest-blackmail-murder)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/81499657/faces-of-innocents-stephen-bain-was-gutsy-victim-of-nzs-most-notorious-murder-case (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/81499657/faces-of-innocents-stephen-bain-was-gutsy-victim-of-nzs-most-notorious-murder-case)

David Bain claimed in an early police interview that his memory was clear, right up to seeing his mother's body (although that should also have included his father's).  Sunday night's muffled argument supposedly occurred approaching midnight when he was in bed... but this tale was only introduced several months later, after he had time to ponder over and embellish the incest rumour. Similarly, he backdated the time of his tattoo (to remember his dog!) by 18 months, because having a memorial tattoo for his family, a black band with rose and feather symbolising love and death, done only a week before the murders would have looked suspicious.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 18, 2017, 07:39:04 AM
In the MVB podcasts you kindly uploaded!!!  I think it is 3. 'A family's final days':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8397.msg418894#msg418894

Yes I accept it seems Arawa emerged unscathed from this grossly dysfunctional family but I did read somewhere claims that she also suffered child sex abuse at RB's hands.  I will endeavour to find it.  DB also seemed unscathed until the murders.  David and Arawa were the older children and it seems the family went off the rails later when LB and SB were much younger and perhaps bore the brunt of all the dysfunction at vulnerable ages.

As you know it was claimed by many that LB intended to drop bombshell news over the weekend before the murders re her work in the sex industry and an incestuous relationship with RB.  On the Sun eve DB said he was in his bedroom (bed?) and heard raised voices but was unable to identify whose or what the conversations were about.  Maybe the reason DB was spared is that he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell disclosures about incest and prostitution.  Bearing in mind DB probably went to bed early due to his early rise for his paper round.  Maybe DB was the only one who "most definitely deserved to stay" because he wasn't privy to LB's bombshell and RB's shameful secret!?   
"I can see clearly now the rain has gone."

Holly you must feel right at home with Bain.
What is it about 23 year olds whose name starts with ba...?
Help me understand.

Ok, sheep to the slaughter....
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 18, 2017, 12:18:28 PM
Found it near the end of podcast 5, 37m:24s in, but MvB didn't explain further. I think it might have been because Stephen was known to be a scrapper, a bit hot-tempered and inclined to defend himself over-zealously. Maybe police were called to his school if and when a fight broke out.

http://stuff.libsyn.com/incest-blackmail-murder (http://stuff.libsyn.com/incest-blackmail-murder)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/81499657/faces-of-innocents-stephen-bain-was-gutsy-victim-of-nzs-most-notorious-murder-case (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/81499657/faces-of-innocents-stephen-bain-was-gutsy-victim-of-nzs-most-notorious-murder-case)

David Bain claimed in an early police interview that his memory was clear, right up to seeing his mother's body (although that should also have included his father's).  Sunday night's muffled argument supposedly occurred approaching midnight when he was in bed... but this tale was only introduced several months later, after he had time to ponder over and embellish the incest rumour. Similarly, he backdated the time of his tattoo (to remember his dog!) by 18 months, because having a memorial tattoo for his family, a black band with rose and feather symbolising love and death, done only a week before the murders would have looked suspicious.

It doesn't really matter what it was for, the fact remains most 14 year old boys from middle class families aren't in trouble with the law.  The fact his 17/18 year old sister was a cannabis user, sex worker and by all accounts engaged in an incestuous relationship with her father surely tells the world and his dog something was amiss with the parenting? 

We know the Bains marriage was over in all but name and according to the psychologist who met them in PNG this extended to their sex life.  Numerous witnesses came forward claiming LB was involved in an incestuous relationship with RB.  More believable since there's no evidence RB was getting his end away elsewhere eg MB or an extra-marital affair. 

LB was the only child who didn't live at ES.  The weekend before the murders on early Monday 20th June 1994 she spent the weekend there and made it clear to numerous others she intended to spill the beans on her life as a sex worker and an incestuous relationship with RB.  She claimed she wanted a clean break and to start afresh as told by numerous witnesses.

DB claims he went to bed at 8.30pm on the Sun eve.  Whether to sleep or just hang out in his bedroom I don't know.  DB started his paper round at 5.45am.  Even if we assume he did little before leaving he would need to get up around 5.30am.  If he fell asleep at 9.30pm/10.30pm he would have a typical 8/7 hours sleep.  By all accounts RB's alarm was set for 6.32am.  MB didn't work and had no reason to rise early.  Same for LB who was unemployed.  AB and SB were at Uni/school respectively - I don't know what time their classes started.  Point is none of them had any reason to rise anywhere near as early as DB.   Early to bed early to rise! 

DB claims he heard raised voices during the Sun eve but he was unable to say whose or what the conversations were about.

It seems clear to me LB dropped the bombshell and all were privy except DB who was in his bed/room/asleep.  Hence he was spared since he was oblivious to RB's shameful secret.  RB had to silence everyone who knew:  MB, AB, LB and SB he killed them and then took his own life.

Shame is a very  powerful emotion and IMO it was shame that triggered RB into murdering all those who were privy to LB's bombshell announcement of an incestuous relationship with her father.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201104/shame-concealed-contagious-and-dangerous-emotion

They all deserved to live.  DB was spared because he was the only one oblivious to RB's sexual perversions.  DB was effectively saved by his paper round causing him to retire to bed and rise early. 

The tattoo reminds me of the claim JB made himself sick upon being told about his family's demise by thinking about Brambles, his deceased pet dog who was apparently run over.  All this stuff is simply a sideshow.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 18, 2017, 12:55:31 PM
David Bain only claimed months after the murders, not in early police interviews when this should have been fresh in his mind, that he heard raised voices on the Sunday night.

Oblivious to his father's alleged but unproven perversions?!  If anyone knew the hidden secrets of the Bain family, David wouldn't be left out. He lived constantly with the friction between his parents, Laniet was frightened of him, as was Arawa.

The timing of the tattoo in memory of his dog was a deliberate attempt to mislead - very strange that he should have had it done 18 months after the dog was put down, yet just a week before his family are murdered.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 18, 2017, 01:17:30 PM
David Bain only claimed months after the murders, not in early police interviews when this should have been fresh in his mind,  that he heard raised voices on the Sunday night.

Oblivious!  If anyone knew the hidden secrets of the Bain family, David wouldn't be left out. He lived constantly with the friction between Robin and Margaret.

DB was diagnosed with suffering from PTSD after finding his immediate family dead/murdered.

What singled DB out on the night before the murders?  He had to get up early and so went to bed early and was the only one not to learn about RB's sexual perversions hence "sorry, you are the only one who deserved to stay".   Do you think incest doesn't happen or do you think it only happens between certain types and RB/LB don't fit the profile?

The friction between RB and MB had nothing to do with RB having an incestuous relationship with LB.  DB didn't raise the incest with investigating officers as he knew nothing about it.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 18, 2017, 02:04:58 PM
Apparently RB drove around with a sign in his car:

"Have you hugged your child today?"

Doesn't this say it all?  What sort of man drives around with such a sign?  I can't think of any man I have ever met in my life who would display such a sign.   

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 18, 2017, 04:58:45 PM
DB was diagnosed with suffering from PTSD after finding his immediate family dead/murdered.

What singled DB out on the night before the murders?  He had to get up early and so went to bed early and was the only one not to learn about RB's sexual perversions hence "sorry, you are the only one who deserved to stay".   Do you think incest doesn't happen or do you think it only happens between certain types and RB/LB don't fit the profile?

The friction between RB and MB had nothing to do with RB having an incestuous relationship with LB.  DB didn't raise the incest with investigating officers as he knew nothing about it.
An affair. Secret, clandestine, obvious to some, but many remain oblivious.
David Bain has maintained, at his own peril, a respectful regard for his murdering father.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 18, 2017, 06:28:23 PM
Apparently RB drove around with a sign in his car:

"Have you hugged your child today?"

Doesn't this say it all?  What sort of man drives around with such a sign?  I can't think of any man I have ever met in my life who would display such a sign.
So what!... he liked children, was an inspirational teacher apparently and not the only one who went around with that bumper sticker.  Shops wouldn't sell 'em, if people didn't buy 'em... https://www.zazzle.com.au/hug+your+kids+gift (https://www.zazzle.com.au/hug+your+kids+gifts)

Besides, it was a family car and could have been Margaret's idea.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 19, 2017, 09:54:11 AM
An affair. Secret, clandestine, obvious to some, but many remain oblivious.
David Bain has maintained, at his own peril, a respectful regard for his murdering father.

The word "affair" normalises an abnormal relationship.  If anything sexual took place in PNG when LB was below the age of consent it was child sex abuse.  I haven't once seen reference to the words 'child sex abuse'. 

Yes Justice Binnie pointed out DB's respectful regard for his murdering father. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 19, 2017, 10:07:20 AM
So what!... he liked children, was an inspirational teacher apparently and not the only one who went around with that bumper sticker.  Shops wouldn't sell 'em, if people didn't buy 'em... https://www.zazzle.com.au/hug+your+kids+gift (https://www.zazzle.com.au/hug+your+kids+gifts)

Besides, it was a family car and could have been Margaret's idea.

Are these items readily available or does the software create such based on the Google search? 

Save prepubescent girls displaying such a message about about pets I find it infantile.

If the Bains were huggers it didn't seem to bode well:

- The parents were estranged.

- MB constantly put RB down and referred to him as the Devil (which was probably true).

- At the time of their deaths their youngest son was in trouble with the law; youngest daughter was suffering a STD, working in the sex industry, regularly smoked cannabis and told numerous witnesses she was having a sexual relationship with RB

- According to you their eldest son murdered them

 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 19, 2017, 10:38:33 AM
Are these items readily available or does the software create such based on the Google search? 

Save prepubescent girls displaying such a message about about pets I find it infantile.

If the Bains were huggers it didn't seem to bode well:

- The parents were estranged.

- MB constantly put RB down and referred to him as the Devil (which was probably true).

- At the time of their deaths their youngest son was in trouble with the law; youngest daughter was suffering a STD, working in the sex industry, regularly smoked cannabis and told numerous witnesses she was having a sexual relationship with RB

- According to you their eldest son murdered them

Of course they're readily available, with stated delivery times... Zazzle is a cheapo alternative to eBay/Amazon, in Australia in this case, but there's also an NZ site.

https://www.zazzle.com.au/have_you_hugged_your_kids_today_bumper_sticker-128091903941882489 (https://www.zazzle.com.au/have_you_hugged_your_kids_today_bumper_sticker-128091903941882489)

Highly unlikely that the Bains or anyone else in Dunedin were internet-connected in '94, and they only had a rudimentary DOS version of Microsoft Word. But I guess these bumper/window stickers were sold in shops at the time and could be bought by anyone who liked hugging their kids.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 20, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
Here is the first part of a transcription of Justice Ian Binnie's interview with Kim Hill on RNZ.
Note his calm way of explaining behaviour and motive pointing to Robin Bain. He spent 6 months full time studying the case. He should be invited to help with Bamber, about 400k would do it.

KH:
And I asked him (Binnie) if he had heard Martin van Beynen’s Podcast series Black Hands

IB:
No, I was told about it, I haven’t listened to it.I regard the title Black Hands as a kind of code for David Bain is crazy, because the ‘black hand’ is one of the images the police relied on to show that DB verged on insane, and MvB I became quite familiar with his writings - I think he’s a very capable journalist but he’s one of these ‘on one hand, on the other hand’ always winds up against DB, and even Ian Callinan did not go as far as it seems to me as MvB goes, I regard MvB as a kind of Inspector Javert in Les Miserables, chasing DB down through the ages, I’m sure the programme is very well done, I’m sure its very informative but I’m not at all surprised it comes down solidly and I gather fairly consistently against DB.

KH:
Yes, it does but he goes through the evidence he regards as inclining to that view, quite scrupulously and some of it still baffles the public till this day, you know… issues like why DB told the Emergency call taker that his family was all dead, but later told police that he had only seen his mother and his father - I dunno whether I can characterise your conclusion as being that he was so traumatised and confused by the events that inconsistencies in his account is, are completely comprehensible?

IB:
Well I think that was the conclusion of the Crown Psychologist Dr Brinded, when he was examined..er.. the lawyer Michael Guest wanted wanted to run a sort of ‘insanity defence’ er, although DB certainly wasn’t participating, in that initiative, so… Guest had DB examined by the psychologist, and he was determined to be perfectly er, sane.
So there are all sorts of twists and turns in here… and as IC commented on in his report and I agree with him, there are a lot of loose ends that have to remain untied because nobody… because the evidence isn’t there anymore. What evidence that was collected, a lot of it was destroyed, there was a lot of evidence that wasn’t collected.
I gather that theres an issue in the programme about a tattoo and some lady has come forward and said oh well the tattoo wasn’t applied when DB said it was.
You know people keep coming out of the woodwork in the DB case…

KH:
Just to clarify that tattoo issue, DB told you, that the tattoo on his arm, was, in memory of a dog that had recently died, and he was very fond of animals, but it turns out he had the tattoo, - the dog had died, like a year and a half earlier, and he’s had the tattoo done a week before his family died.
There are… more than inconsistencies involved, in that kind of.. misleading statement.. are there not?

IB:
Well you’re assuming the truth of this individual who’s come forward to contradict him. I don’t know whether you can make that assumption, I don’t know anything about the person, or the story but all the way thru the Bain case people kept popping out of the woodwork… er the one I found the most incredible is that there was a correctional officer called Thomas Samuel, who turned up at the 2009 trial and said he had examined DB at the prison at the time DB was admitted, this is pre-trial and there were claw marks on his chest, which he described as being consistent with being grabbed in a death struggle with Steven.
DB had just before that encounter with Mr Samuels been examined by the police doctor Dr. Pride who was nothing if not meticulous in his examination of DB, and he too samples of his penis and so on.. and think that Dr. Pride would have ‘missed’ all of these scratches and gougings that Samuel had reported er, defies belief.
So I don’t think in the DB case you can assume that people who come out of the left field and say that well this and er that and well thats not what he told me that its all correct - some of it may be correct, some of it may not be correct I don’t know, but I’m not surprised that witnesses kept… Er, its a kind of notoriety people like to er be public figures and here's their chance to step forward and either contradict him and in this case, Thomas Samuels i have no idea what Thomas Samuel was thinking but it absolutely defies belief that DB’s chest would be massively scratched and the police doctor wouldn’t have noticed it
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 20, 2017, 06:48:03 PM
Part 2
KH:
There are factors that do not rely on hearsay or people coming out of the woodwork, however you know the washing containing the green jersey worn by the killer.
The Crown says that David was trying to destroy the evidence… but the defence says the jersey was put in the washing basket by Robin Bain (David’s father) after he shot the family. Is that credible? Why would that happen? That goes to the larger question is it really credible that Robin Bain could have done it because if DB didn’t, RB must have right?

IB:
I think thats been the working assumption and I don’t know any reason to dispute it er.. the green jersey as you know is a highly contentious issue, it belonged to RB, he’s 5ft 10, DB is 6ft 4, I’m 6’1 and DB towers over me, its hard to believe that DB could wear his fathers sweater, I read somewhere that DB who was about 20lb heavier than his father - so there are a lot of issues around the ‘green sweater’.
Clearly, if Robin did it, then he obviously changed his clothes, before he committed suicide.

KH:
Is that likely?

IB:
Well the Privy Council, I dunno if you have read, Lord Bingham’s judgement but they go thru all this and say look these footprints if these so called luminol footprints, did indeed belong to RB then…
3 consequences follow, Firstly that Robin was in an area of the house where on the Crown’s theory he could not have been, Secondly Robin must have changed his clothing in order to be found where he was, when he was, and relatively clean clothing. And that Thirdly, the/this combination of events, triggered by these footprints, would point if believed to the guilt of RB. So… it is absolutely ‘true’ that if DB is innocent, then RB had quite a quite elaborate scheme put together to accomplish in the hour, that DB was out on his paper route.

KH:
I can’t remember if anything what the Privy Council said about these ‘white dress gloves’ they belonged to DB, they were found covered in blood, found under Stevens bed… did the Privy Council address that ‘cause that - another…

IB:
Well I think they refer to it, they didn’t put much weight on it

KH:
Tell me the question is why… why would Robin wear David’s gloves, as he was going to commit suicide… and why would David not dispose of the gloves, if he was the killer… y’know everything seems unlikely after a certain point doesn’t it…

IB:
Yes it does. Thats a good question as to why would DB not dispose of it - why wouldn’t he change his clothes? If he was guilty, the fact of the matter is that he could wear DB’s gloves, David could not wear Robins gloves. Clearly there was something at work here, to shift the blame, on to David.
David as you know exonerates his father, says if he couldn’t imagine that his father would have done this, although the implication is obvious that if the father did NOT do it - then David did it.
But there are all kinds of suspicious circumstances working against Robin as there are working against David. The suicide note on the computer…

KH:
But it wasn’t a suicide note actually was it… It was - you are like the only one

IB:
You see.. if the computer was turned on, as the evidence seemed to show well the Crown having relied on ‘computer turn on time’ in 1995, now turns around and says all that evidence is unreliable

KH:
I nearly meant by that, that “you are the only one who deserved to stay” could not been construed as a suicide note per se could it.

IB:
But its a note to his son.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 09:48:57 AM
Thank goodness for people like Justice Binnie: non prejudicial, intelligent, common sense and compassionate.  A complete contrast with the trial judge and appeal court judges in JB's case.

Samson can we get him on board with JB?  The similarities with the Bain case are striking and I'm sure he would find it of interest. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 10:54:09 AM
... and didn't notice any blood on clothes left in the laundry basket, but left fingerprints on the side of the Hoover toploader and blood on the washing powder container sitting on the shelf above. Furthermore, he claimed that he separated whites from coloureds, yet when police hung them out to dry they were all in the same wash.

The laundry/washroom showing Hoover toploader with laundry basket in front, and shelf with "Will Power" washing powder which had a blood stain on it...

So how did DB explain the fresh blood stain on the washing powder container and the washing machine if he had set the wash BEFORE the murders were committed?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 12:22:59 PM
So how did DB explain the fresh blood stain on the washing powder container and the washing machine if he had set the wash BEFORE the murders were committed?

According to police officers the laundry room (containing washing powder container, dirty laundry and washing machine) was dimly lit.  Apparently one officer asked for the light to be turned on only to be told it was!  All the Bain children were given a long list of chores and one of David's included the laundry.  He claims he finished his paper round and put the washing on as was normal practice.  The washing included the bloody green sweater said to have been worn by the perp which was blood stained from the fight with SB.   DB claims he handled the sweather by removing it from the laundry bin and placed it in the machine.  He then reached for the washing powder and touched the machine transferring blood to both from the sweater.  I think that's about it.  Samson will put me right. 

I find it difficult to say anything positive about the Bain parents.  MB wasn't working and her children were of an age when they were largely independant.  It appears she spent much of the day in bed.  Did she suffer depression/mental illness or was she just lazy/selfish?  Why did DB and the other children have a long list of chores when they were all students and MB appears to have done sfa all day?  The only child not living at home visited the weekend before the murders.  Surely most mothers in MB's position ie not working would prepare meals for the weekend and yet it seems DB and LB went out for fish and chips on the Sun eve.  Perhaps explains MB's weight problem.
 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 12:30:20 PM
Samson your post #133 and IB's response:

IB:
Yes it does. Thats a good question as to why would DB not dispose of it - why wouldn’t he change his clothes? If he was guilty, the fact of the matter is that he could wear DB’s gloves, David could not wear Robins gloves. Clearly there was something at work here, to shift the blame, on to David.
David as you know exonerates his father, says if he couldn’t imagine that his father would have done this, although the implication is obvious that if the father did NOT do it - then David did it.
But there are all kinds of suspicious circumstances working against Robin as there are working against David. The suicide note on the computer…


Blimey IB seems to be suggesting RB may have worn the gloves to shift the blame if I've interpreted that correctly?  It wouldn't surprise me as I find the Bain parents a seriously dysfuctional couple.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 01:17:00 PM
So how did DB explain the fresh blood stain on the washing powder container and the washing machine if he had set the wash BEFORE the murders were committed?
Robin was usually up at 6:30 in the mornings, the time set by his alarm clock, but on this particular Monday the defence theory was that he rose earlier to carry out the murders soon after David had left, then put on fresh clothes and placed his blood-stained ones in the laundry basket ready for his son to wash on his return at around 6:40.  Hence David had nothing to explain, other than that blood was transferred without him noticing.

But seriously, is anyone expected to believe that Robin Bain changed into another pair of old track suit bottoms and a ragged pullover, just in case St Peter asked some searching questions about blood on his clothes when he showed up at the Pearly Gates?   He'd already turned the rest of Bain mansions into a bloodbath, so why worry about a few more spilled drops of his own in the lounge?

Have you listened to these two revealing extracts in which David Bain ran rings around Ian Binnie with evasive answers about Stephen's blood on his clothes and Laniet's gurgling?

 https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 01:29:09 PM
According to police officers the laundry room (containing washing powder container, dirty laundry and washing machine) was dimly lit.  Apparently one officer asked for the light to be turned on only to be told it was!  All the Bain children were given a long list of chores and one of David's included the laundry.  He claims he finished his paper round and put the washing on as was normal practice.  The washing included the bloody green sweater said to have been worn by the perp which was blood stained from the fight with SB.   DB claims he handled the sweather by removing it from the laundry bin and placed it in the machine.  He then reached for the washing powder and touched the machine transferring blood to both from the sweater.  I think that's about it.  Samson will put me right. 

I find it difficult to say anything positive about the Bain parents.  MB wasn't working and her children were of an age when they were largely independant.  It appears she spent much of the day in bed.  Did she suffer depression/mental illness or was she just lazy/selfish?  Why did DB and the other children have a long list of chores when they were all students and MB appears to have done sfa all day?  The only child not living at home visited the weekend before the murders.  Surely most mothers in MB's position ie not working would prepare meals for the weekend and yet it seems DB and LB went out for fish and chips on the Sun eve.  Perhaps explains MB's weight problem.
The children were given chores, but according to the state of their rooms they were never or rarely carried out, except for David's room which seemed to be the tidiest of the lot.

MB had already cooked some fish in the microwave, DB and LB only went to buy chips.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 01:36:21 PM
Robin was usually up at 6:30 in the mornings, the time set by his alarm clock, but on this particular Monday the defence theory was that he rose earlier to carry out the murders soon after David had left, then put on fresh clothes and placed his blood-stained ones in the laundry basket ready for his son to wash on his return at around 6:40.  Hence David had nothing to explain, other than that blood was transferred without him noticing.

But seriously, is anyone expected to believe that Robin Bain changed into another pair of old track suit bottoms and a ragged pullover, just in case St Peter asked some searching questions about blood on his clothes when he showed up at the Pearly Gates?   He'd already turned the rest of Bain mansions into a bloodbath, so why worry about a few more spilled drops of his own in the lounge?

Have you listened to these two revealing extracts in which David Bain ran rings around Ian Binnie with evasive answers about Stephen's blood on his clothes and Laniet's gurgling?

 https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/)

6.32am actually  8((()*/  Why 6.32am?

You're forgetting RB was a "strong Presbyterian".  Islamic terrorists often shave off all head and body hair before committing terrorist atrocities and suicide in preparation to meet their maker.  Mind you RB didn't bother scrubbing up his nails unless what we see in soc images is ingrained dirt.  Pity the police/forensics didn't analyse scrapings from under his fingernails. 

Thank God I'm an Atheist and can slope off in a bit of distressed denim complete with hairy legs.   8)-))) 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 01:47:20 PM
The children were given chores, but according to the state of their rooms they were never or rarely carried out, except for David's room which seemed to be the tidiest of the lot.

MB had already cooked some fish in the microwave, DB and LB only went to buy chips.

LB didn't live at home.  SB's room appears to have been a general family dumping ground.  Given MB wasn't working and the children were out all day was there anything preventing her from cleaning and tidying up?  What exactly did she do all day?  Others pointed out she was very overweight.  99.9% of those who are overweight do too little exercise and put too much food in their mouths.  Aka gluttony.  Forget all the excuses about medical conditions, menopause etc.  Calories and kilojoules.  Input and output.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 01:52:20 PM
6.32am actually  8((()*/  Why 6.32am?

You're forgetting RB was a "strong Presbyterian".  Islamic terrorists often shave off all head and body hair before committing terrorist atrocities and suicide in preparation to meet their maker.  Mind you RB didn't bother scrubbing up his nails unless what we see in soc images is ingrained dirt.  Pity the police/forensics didn't analyse scrapings from under his fingernails. 

Thank God I'm an Atheist and can slope off in a bit of distressed denim complete with hairy legs.   8)-)))
Not surprising about ingrained dirt after cleaning out their guttering... a mucky job.  Some men are not all that fastidious.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 01:58:46 PM
LB didn't live at home.  SB's room appears to have been a general family dumping ground.  Given MB wasn't working and the children were out all day was there anything preventing her from cleaning and tidying up?  What exactly did she do all day?  Others pointed out she was very overweight.  99.9% of those who are overweight do too little exercise and put too much food in their mouths.  Aka gluttony.  Forget all the excuses about medical conditions, menopause etc.  Calories and kilojoules.  Input and output.
Writing up her diary and bottling shelf loads of fruit, most of which seemed to be blown, when she wasn't studying for a course she was enrolled on,
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 02:05:52 PM
Robin was usually up at 6:30 in the mornings, the time set by his alarm clock, but on this particular Monday the defence theory was that he rose earlier to carry out the murders soon after David had left, then put on fresh clothes and placed his blood-stained ones in the laundry basket ready for his son to wash on his return at around 6:40.  Hence David had nothing to explain, other than that blood was transferred without him noticing.

But seriously, is anyone expected to believe that Robin Bain changed into another pair of old track suit bottoms and a ragged pullover, just in case St Peter asked some searching questions about blood on his clothes when he showed up at the Pearly Gates?   He'd already turned the rest of Bain mansions into a bloodbath, so why worry about a few more spilled drops of his own in the lounge?

Have you listened to these two revealing extracts in which David Bain ran rings around Ian Binnie with evasive answers about Stephen's blood on his clothes and Laniet's gurgling?

 https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/the-binnie-tapes/)

I'm slowly getting to grips with this case thanks to those who have posted some excellent references so far.   I must say that I have changed my mind several times as to who was the murderer such are the contradictions.  A couple of things stand out though and point to DB.

* Getting up early to kill your family is unusual.
* The blood stained green jumper.
* DB's bloody print on the washing machine.
* DB's bloodstained gloves found under Stephen's bed.
* DB insisting the sister who lived away be home that weekend.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
LB didn't live at home.  SB's room appears to have been a general family dumping ground.  Given MB wasn't working and the children were out all day was there anything preventing her from cleaning and tidying up?  What exactly did she do all day?  Others pointed out she was very overweight.  99.9% of those who are overweight do too little exercise and put too much food in their mouths.  Aka gluttony.  Forget all the excuses about medical conditions, menopause etc.  Calories and kilojoules.  Input and output.

Margaret Bain obviously had a severe mental illness combined with acute depression.  Was the wretched woman receiving any medical support?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 02:12:48 PM
Writing up her diary and bottling shelf loads of fruit, most of which seemed to be blown, when she wasn't studying for a course she was enrolled on,

On I forgot she did prepare her own medicines cosisting of urine and phlegm! 

She thought she had a direct line to God and apparently sought her advice over the simplest of decisions eg what to put on the shopping list so I guess this took up much of her time.

What course was she enrolled on?

After the family met with the psychologist in PNG a whole team of therapists was recommended to sort out the family's problems.  I wonder why the Bains didn't act on the advice?

Frankly I'm amazed DB seems so 'normal'. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 02:21:07 PM
Margaret Bain obviously had a severe mental illness combined with acute depression.  Was the wretched woman receiving any medical support?

A psychologist interviewed each member of the family whilst they were in PNG.  She described both parents as pathologically dysfuntional and recommended a whole team of therapists but sadly this doesn't seem to have happened.  According to the psychologist MB talked non-stop and didn't appear to listen.  This was also pointed out by others.  The psychologist described RB as being devoid of emotion.

 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 02:29:14 PM
On I forgot she did prepare her own medicines cosisting of urine and phlegm! 

She thought she had a direct line to God and apparently sought her advice over the simplest of decisions eg what to put on the shopping list so I guess this took up much of her time.

What course was she enrolled on?

After the family met with the psychologist in PNG a whole team of therapists was recommended to sort out the family's problems.  I wonder why the Bains didn't act on the advice?

Frankly I'm amazed DB seems so 'normal'.

Something about "SC & Bursary exams" according to a diary entry, although I read elsewhere that she was studying on a course.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 02:46:35 PM
I'm slowly getting to grips with this case thanks to those who have posted some excellent references so far.   I must say that I have changed my mind several times as to who was the murderer such are the contradictions.  A couple of things stand out though and point to DB.

* Getting up early to kill your family is unusual.
* The blood stained green jumper.
* DB's bloody print on the washing machine.
* DB's bloodstained gloves found under Stephen's bed.
* DB insisting the sister who lived away be home that weekend.

Arawa's/Robin's green woollen jumper might also have been worn by David, as it was baggy despite what has been said about his bigger build and he was skinnier in '94 than he is now. The jumper is thought to have brushed against door jambs of Stephen's and Arawa's bedrooms leaving them heavily bloodstained...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 02:50:31 PM
I'm slowly getting to grips with this case thanks to those who have posted some excellent references so far.   I must say that I have changed my mind several times as to who was the murderer such are the contradictions.  A couple of things stand out though and point to DB.

* Getting up early to kill your family is unusual.
* The blood stained green jumper.
* DB's bloody print on the washing machine.
* DB's bloodstained gloves found under Stephen's bed.
* DB insisting the sister who lived away be home that weekend.

There's a pattern emerging...those who see JB guilty are also inclined to see DB guilty! 

John may I recommend the following podcast:

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil

At 5 mins in it features an interview with a psychologist who met with the entire Bain family a year before they left PNG.  She described RB's persona as an act, shell and said she found him devoid of emotion.  When she first heard about the murders she thought he may have snapped from years of powerelessness ? I think that's the word used.

It sounds to me the couple were grossly dysfunctional and drove one another literally insane.  I think they fell off the radar in PNG.  Had they remained in NZ maybe their extended families and others would have reined them in. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 02:57:10 PM
There's a pattern emerging...those who see JB guilty are also inclined to see DB guilty! 

John may I recommend the following podcast:

http://stuff.libsyn.com/mrs-bain-the-diary-and-the-devil

At 5 mins in it features an interview with a psychologist who met with the entire Bain family a year before they left PNG.  She described RB's persona as an act, shell and said she found him devoid of emotion.  When she first heard about the murders she thought he may have snapped from years of powerelessness ? I think that's the word used.

It sounds to me the couple were grossly dysfunctional and drove one another literally insane.  I think they fell off the radar in PNG.  Had they remained in NZ maybe their extended families and others would have reined them in.

I agree, several years living in such primitive conditions would send any westerner de lally.

I can understand what you mean by pattern but I don't necessarily agree, I go by the evidence usually.

Another facet of the case is the way DB reacted when police first attended the scene.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 03:11:31 PM
I agree, several years living in such primitive conditions would send any westerner de lally.

I can understand what you mean by pattern but I don't necessarily agree, I go by the evidence usually.

Another facet of the case is the way DB reacted when police first attended the scene.
Why bother summoning an ambulance at all when he was insistent that all his family were dead?... then when police arrive they have to break in because he refused to unlock the front door.  Crazy!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 03:23:45 PM
Why bother summoning an ambulance at all when he was insistent that all his family were dead?... then when police arrive they have to break in because he refused to unlock the front door.  Crazy!

I assume the call handler ordered the ambulance.  Lay people are not usually competent to declare a person dead. 

He was suffering from PTSD.  How would anyone react on discovering their entire immediate family had been wiped out?  Imagine going from room to room seeing each family member apparently dead.  We would need 100 similar cases to establish a range of 'normal' responses.  Imagine for a sec he's innocent. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 03:58:10 PM
Why bother summoning an ambulance at all when he was insistent that all his family were dead?... then when police arrive they have to break in because he refused to unlock the front door.  Crazy!

Correct, the normal response for an adult in such a situation is to meet the responders at the front door and beckon them in urgently.  Add to this the fact that anyone arriving home to such a scene would telephone the emergency services immediately in case mad gunman was lurking nearby.  None of this happened with David Bain and I understand no satisfactory explanation has ever been received from him to explain his responses?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 21, 2017, 06:23:37 PM
I assume the call handler ordered the ambulance.  Lay people are not usually competent to declare a person dead. 

He was suffering from PTSD.  How would anyone react on discovering their entire immediate family had been wiped out?  Imagine going from room to room seeing each family member apparently dead.  We would need 100 similar cases to establish a range of 'normal' responses.  Imagine for a sec he's innocent.
The male call handler was from Dunedin ambulance service. Bain was then transferred to a female call handler to pacify him, though he still repeated to her that all his family were dead.

David Bain's former psychiatrist Phil Brinded when cross-examined at the 2009 retrial said -

"acute stress reaction and PTSD could also be experienced by somebody who had committed a murder."

He was familiar with a study that showed 70 per cent of murderers had some sort of amnesia of the events.

Source: stuff.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 21, 2017, 06:36:33 PM
The male call handler was from Dunedin ambulance service. Bain was then transferred to a female call handler to pacify him, though he still repeated to her that all his family were dead.

David Bain's former psychiatrist Phil Brinded when cross-examined at the 2009 retrial said -

"acute stress reaction and PTSD could also be experienced by somebody who had committed a murder."

He was familiar with a study that showed 70 per cent of murderers had some sort of amnesia of the events.

Source: stuff.

Killers who are in denial have usually convinced themselves that they couldn't possibly have done such a dreadful thing.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 21, 2017, 07:09:00 PM
The male call handler was from Dunedin ambulance service. Bain was then transferred to a female call handler to pacify him, though he still repeated to her that all his family were dead.

David Bain's former psychiatrist Phil Brinded when cross-examined at the 2009 retrial said -

"acute stress reaction and PTSD could also be experienced by somebody who had committed a murder."

He was familiar with a study that showed 70 per cent of murderers had some sort of amnesia of the events.

Source: stuff.

But can all murderers be lumped together?

Crime of passion - man/woman loses mind jealousy, anger eg Jane Andrews
Crime of extreme emotion - shame, rage over some wrong real or imagined eg Thomas Hamilton
Crime of anger - some have a short fuse - anger managment eg guy pulls a knife on someone accidentally brushing past in a pub
Crime of insanity - the mentally ill suffering psychosis or the like
Crime under the influence drink/drugs

Had RB survived I wonder if he might have suffered amnesia?   

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: adam on August 21, 2017, 07:15:21 PM
Killers who are in denial have usually convinced themselves that they couldn't possibly done such a dreadful thing.

Pre meditated murders on a person the killer already knows,  the killer has already convinced himself he is justified in committing the murder.

This will make the murderer more determined to not admit to the crime, if they become a suspect.

As in the cases of Bamber & OJ Simpson. OJ telling his long term girlfriend 'she had it coming', in other words, deserved it.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 21, 2017, 09:51:05 PM
Thank goodness for people like Justice Binnie: non prejudicial, intelligent, common sense and compassionate.  A complete contrast with the trial judge and appeal court judges in JB's case.

Samson can we get him on board with JB?  The similarities with the Bain case are striking and I'm sure he would find it of interest.
He was in New Zealand for a lawyers conference, I believe he might well be interested. He seems a man of the people, not an Ivory Tower. On the other hand, he was asked to analyse Bain by our government, not by the "riff raff" like us  8(8-)) . But I could write, because he will be stunned but unsurprised by the disgraceful scientific corruption in Lundy. Nostalgia and I are helping with the appeal for october 14 by the way.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: adam on August 21, 2017, 10:43:43 PM
Wikipedia says the prosecution case was that the motive was to inherit.

The defence case is it was another family member. Who died in the massacre after shooting himself. Why ? He snapped.

Poor David Bain was out doing his paper round.

All sounds familiar.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 02:40:48 AM
Here we go...a film

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11908493

"Karam said he had never heard of the film or Dobson.

"He's never been in touch with me, so I've got nothing to say."

He did not think Bain had been told the film was being produced, Karam said."

I guess we have to suffer some more woeful pretense that there is a mystery to be solved.
Or maybe it will resolve favourably for DB as Winterbottom's film did for Amanda Knox.

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 05:15:04 AM
Ian Binnie seems easy to contact

https://www.arbitrationplace.com/ian-binnie

(and not bad for 78 Holly  8**8:/:)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 22, 2017, 06:05:54 AM
Holly's handbag isn't big enough to hold 400 grand.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 22, 2017, 06:17:39 AM
Here we go...a film

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11908493 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11908493)

"Karam said he had never heard of the film or Dobson.

"He's never been in touch with me, so I've got nothing to say."

He did not think Bain had been told the film was being produced, Karam said."

I guess we have to suffer some more woeful pretense that there is a mystery to be solved.
Or maybe it will resolve favourably for DB as Winterbottom's film did for Amanda Knox.
Filming only starts in 12 months, then reckon on another twelve for editing and scheduling. A long wait for a drama/doc which ends at the first trial, and lets viewers reach their own conclusions.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 07:59:35 AM
Filming only starts in 12 months, then reckon on another twelve for editing and scheduling. A long wait for a drama/doc which ends at the first trial, and lets viewers reach their own conclusions.
Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 08:22:46 AM
Our fine friend in NZ is finishing the Binnie transcript with more attention to detail. I will post more soon.
Holly, the more I consider it the better I see a reasonable solution being derived from the internet community communing with influential people.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 22, 2017, 08:25:25 AM
Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.

The David Bain we knew no longer exists (with his new ID), so what harm will a documentary with no conclusions reached do to his reputation.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 08:46:44 AM
The David Bain we knew no longer exists (with his new ID), so what harm will a documentary with no conclusions reached do to his reputation.

I don't think he was given a new identity by the NZ gov eg Maxine Carr, Karen Matthews.  It seems to me he has taken on his wife's surname probably to protect his son.  This may even have been at his wife's insistence.

Unless he gets his ears pinned back he sort of sticks out!  Plus he refuses to give up red knitted jerseys based on MB's patterns! 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 22, 2017, 09:10:15 AM
Do you think David Bain should sue their asses off?

Would you wish to if your life times and current medical conditions were being fictionally filmed and everyone at the local hostelry regarded you as a curiosity whose legitimate life had been deemed irrelevant? I guess DB is better off than caged Bamber, but I am quite disgusted at this general process.

Clearly the film will be based on facts which are known and will not speculate on who was responsible.  The viewer will be left to make up their own mind.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 09:19:51 AM
Clearly the film will be based on facts which are known and will not speculate on who was responsible.  The viewer will be left to make up their own mind.
The known facts, or more commonly described simply as facts, combine to make a modal logic irrefutable proof, Robin Bain killed his family then shot himself.
He wrote a note to David, not a suicide note.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 22, 2017, 09:33:03 AM
The known facts, or more commonly described simply as facts, combine to make a modal logic irrefutable proof, Robin Bain killed his family then shot himself.
He wrote a note to David, not a suicide note.

I disagree, there is no proof Robin Bain typed the message on the computer.  As for irrefutable proof, I have yet to see any.  The evidential contradictions in this case are too numerous to be ignored thus why the ambiguity over David Bain's alleged involvement.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
I disagree, there is no proof Robin Bain typed the message on the computer.  As for irrefutable proof, I have yet to see any.  The evidential contradictions in this case are too numerous to be ignored thus why the ambiguity over David Bain's alleged involvement.

I agree there are many evidential contradictions and no irrefutable proof either way.  I don't know enough about the case to have any strong views, although as it stands I am inclined to see DB as innocent.  Sadly the evidential contradictions were mainly brought about by the police not processing evidence properly and/or destroying it.  In DB's case it cannot be said he attempted to lay the blame on RB resulting in the police prematurely writing the case/soc off as murder/suicide.  DB was treated as a suspect from the off and charged shortly afterwards.

IMO it is totally unacceptable that 2 of the wealthiest countries in the world by GDP per capita run such shambolic justice systems.   
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 11:50:29 AM
Ian Binnie seems easy to contact

https://www.arbitrationplace.com/ian-binnie

(and not bad for 78 Holly  8**8:/:)

Yes quite dashing even at 78!  I am sure he would be delighted to receive one of my long rambling emails about JB's case  &%+((£

I note from his CV he was at McGill uni in 1960 so he might even have known SC's birth maternal grandfather, Eric G Jay, who at the time was Prof of Theology at McGill.  I am sure he will be have some awareness of the case.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
I agree there are many evidential contradictions and no irrefutable proof either way.  I don't know enough about the case to have any strong views, although as it stands I am inclined to see DB as innocent.  Sadly the evidential contradictions were mainly brought about by the police not processing evidence properly and/or destroying it.  In DB's case it cannot be said he attempted to lay the blame on RB resulting in the police prematurely writing the case/soc off as murder/suicide.  DB was treated as a suspect from the off and charged shortly afterwards.

IMO it is totally unacceptable that 2 of the wealthiest countries in the world by GDP per capita run such shambolic justice systems.
Needless to say I totally disagree on this.
Your open mindedness epitomises the on the one hand on the other hand nonsense that Binnie describes, Holly. This idea that proof remains ever absent is just wrong. Our friend Charlie Wilkes even errs delivering this sublime cautionary note. I consider the case against David Bain as having a probabilty of being 0.00% recurring of being correct, and since you have Karam's tome at hand I invite you to consider your own evaluation and present it here.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 12:08:36 PM
Yes quite dashing even at 78!  I am sure he would be delighted to receive one of my long rambling emails about JB's case  &%+((£

I note from his CV he was at McGill uni in 1960 so he might even have known SC's birth maternal grandfather, Eric G Jay, who at the time was Prof of Theology at McGill.  I am sure he will be have some awareness of the case.
The rest of the transcript is close, it is a raw and egregious wound that Judith Collins delivered. There will be a realistic way of engaging this excellent man, drawing his attention, I will do some homework.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 22, 2017, 12:59:37 PM
At David Bain's second trial in 2009, his aunt, Jan Clark, went into some detail of conversations she had with him when he stayed at their home immediately following the murders. 

Well worth listening to for anyone who hasn't already trawled through the podcast.

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" from 00.06.00

On the Tuesday evening David read an article about the murders in the local newspaper and appeared distressed, his uncle took him up to the Clark's bedroom for some privacy. A short while later Jan Clark followed him up and found him sitting on the bed with his head in his hands.  She recalls saying to him that that was why they didn't want him to read the paper to which David Bain replied, "They lied to me...they weren't asleep...they knew they were going to die...he had to look them in the eye and shoot them".

Interestingly, the newspaper article did not contain any details as to how his three siblings died.

http://stuff.libsyn.com
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 22, 2017, 01:27:35 PM
When asked at the second trial if David Bain had talked about himself, about his condition, his girlfriend stated, "Umm...when we were talking about the 20 minutes that he couldn't account for, he said that he had some injuries that he did not know how he had got
and he had a bump on his head that he pointed out to me".

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" at 00.22.35

http://stuff.libsyn.com
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 02:17:47 PM
Needless to say I totally disagree on this.
Your open mindedness epitomises the on the one hand on the other hand nonsense that Binnie describes, Holly. This idea that proof remains ever absent is just wrong. Our friend Charlie Wilkes even errs delivering this sublime cautionary note. I consider the case against David Bain as having a probabilty of being 0.00% recurring of being correct, and since you have Karam's tome at hand I invite you to consider your own evaluation and present it here.

Samson Justice Binnie concluded on page 144 of his report:

"471.  In response to the Minister’s Mandate letter I conclude that it is more likely than not
that David Bain is factually innocent".
   

I agree with the above statement but I also agree with John in that if you're looking for absolutes none exist.

The problem as I see it is that the public in general want absolute proof of innocence or guilt when often it doesn't exist and in any event our judicial systems don't require such.  The system is advesarial and based on 'not guilty' or 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt'.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 02:20:00 PM
When asked at the second trial if David Bain had talked about himself, about his condition, his girlfriend stated, "Umm...when we were talking about the 20 minutes that he couldn't account for, he said that he had some injuries that he did not know how he had got
and he had a bump on his head that he pointed out to me".

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" at 00.22.35

http://stuff.libsyn.com

The bump to his head was apparently caused when he passed out from the shock and hit some furniture.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 22, 2017, 03:08:23 PM
The bump to his head was apparently caused when he passed out from the shock and hit some furniture.

And the other injuries not to mention the fake fits?  Bain and Bamber certainly have much in common when it comes to acting.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
And the other injuries not to mention the fake fits?  Bain and Bamber certainly have much in common when it comes to acting.

You can read all about DB's 'injuries' here from page 117 including the police officer's ws where he put DB in the recovery position.

https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2012-David-Bain-amended-report.pdf

How do people generally react when they discover terrible news eg loss of loved ones? 

From the DM re MM:

"She said: '[Kate] was pacing up and down. The worst possible thing had just happened to her.

'She was crying, but almost in a catatonic state, and Gerry was very distressed."


People respond in different ways.

JB's reaction at WHF was observed by a police surgeon of long experience who identified shock. 
 
Were the princes acting when they had to walk behind their mother's coffin?  Yes imo and it took its toll on Prince Harry's mental health.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=moz35&p=princes+walking+behind+dianas+coffin#id=3&vid=0a3f20199c37f1403cdfa39e2e3028e9&action=click
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 22, 2017, 05:58:58 PM
At David Bain's second trial in 2009, his aunt, Jan Clark, went into some detail of conversations she had with him when he stayed at their home immediately following the murders. 

Well worth listening to for anyone who hasn't already trawled through the podcast.

Podcast 4. "The b@stard killed his family" from 00.06.00

On the Tuesday evening David read an article about the murders in the local newspaper and appeared distressed, his uncle took him up to the Clark's bedroom for some privacy. A short while later Jan Clark followed him up and found him sitting on the bed with his head in his hands.  She recalls saying to him that that was why they didn't want him to read the paper to which David Bain replied, "They lied to me...they weren't asleep...they knew they were going to die...he had to look them in the eye and shoot them".

Interestingly, the newspaper article did not contain any details as to how his three siblings died.

http://stuff.libsyn.com

I've just listened to the above but can't find where it states the newspaper article didn't contain any details as to how his siblings died.  All I heard was that the police suggested to the relatives to keep DB away from the papers.  Whether the reason for this was that they suspected him and didn't want him knowing about aspects of the investigation or they thought he would find it upsetting I don't know.  When David became upset and said as you've quoted above his aunt apparently said to DB this is the reason we didn't want you reading the papers.  Apparently DB could not be persuaded against reading the papers. 

I think JB did similar.  If they're innocent maybe they were just trying to figure out what happened.  Nowadays the police would provide a family liaison officer to keep family members briefed on events.    Not sure this happened back in 1985 UK and 1994 NZ.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 06:17:55 PM
Samson Justice Binnie concluded on page 144 of his report:

"471.  In response to the Minister’s Mandate letter I conclude that it is more likely than not
that David Bain is factually innocent".
   

I agree with the above statement but I also agree with John in that if you're looking for absolutes none exist.

The problem as I see it is that the public in general want absolute proof of innocence or guilt when often it doesn't exist and in any event our judicial systems don't require such.  The system is advesarial and based on 'not guilty' or 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt'.
But this is one of the manifestations of a broken system. In the Bain case it is factually impossible to get a case against DB over the line, despite the nonsense driven by MVB. Ian Binnie must privately consider DB out of the guilt frame completely. Legal caution rather than scientific frames his words. I always return to the aviation analogy, which allows no expectation that the plane might not land safely. You would not fly if there was a 95% chance of landing I promise you.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 22, 2017, 06:22:28 PM
I've just listened to the above but can't find where it states the newspaper article didn't contain any details as to how his siblings died.  All I heard was that the police suggested to the relatives to keep DB away from the papers.  Whether the reason for this was that they suspected him and didn't want him knowing about aspects of the investigation or they thought he would find it upsetting I don't know.  When David became upset and said as you've quoted above his aunt apparently said to DB this is the reason we didn't want you reading the papers.  Apparently DB could not be persuaded against reading the papers. 

I think JB did similar.  If they're innocent maybe they were just trying to figure out what happened.  Nowadays the police would provide a family liaison officer to keep family members briefed on events.    Not sure this happened back in 1985 UK and 1994 NZ.

The bedroom scene between 10:30 and 14:30, same episode 4... http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2017, 07:59:15 PM
The bedroom scene between 10:30 and 14:30, same episode 4... http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)
She describes the thoughts of a man concerning the run of the mill slaughter of his family that he discovered alone. He mentions Schindler's list. He is an artist who has complex thoughts, surprise. What a lot of nonsense and time wasting we have endured for 23 years.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 23, 2017, 08:44:52 AM
The bump to his head was apparently caused when he passed out from the shock and hit some furniture.

Just reading the Daily Mail re the princes being told their mother had died:

William:

"I remember just feeling completely numb.  Disorientated, dizzy...And you keep asking yourself, Why me?" all the time.

I wonder how William might have felt had say a terrorist broken into Sandringham at the family Christmas gathering and he was the only survivor out of his immediate family? 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 23, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
"Other startling revelations include:

How the Queen removed newspapers from Balmoral Castle so her grandsons would not be upset;"
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 23, 2017, 09:00:41 AM
She describes the thoughts of a man concerning the run of the mill slaughter of his family that he discovered alone. He mentions Schindler's list. He is an artist who has complex thoughts, surprise. What a lot of nonsense and time wasting we have endured for 23 years.

Perhaps Schindler's list was thoughts about someone determining who survived and who didn't!  Survivors guilt:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor_guilt

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 23, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
The bedroom scene between 10:30 and 14:30, same episode 4... http://stuff.libsyn.com/ (http://stuff.libsyn.com/)

But I still don't understand how DB incriminated himself during the conversation with his aunt?  He observed his parents and therefore the papers making reference to some out of their beds he arrived at the logical conclusion his siblings must have been out of their beds and faced the perp. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 05:56:54 PM
But I still don't understand how DB incriminated himself during the conversation with his aunt?  He observed his parents and therefore the papers making reference to some out of their beds he arrived at the logical conclusion his siblings must have been out of their beds and faced the perp.
His aunt claimed he said - "They lied to me (about what?), they weren't asleep, they knew they were going to die... he (I) had to look them in the eye and shoot them"

In other words... he knew that two family members, Stephen and Arawa, were either up or just getting out of bed when he entered their rooms, and aware they were about to be shot.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 23, 2017, 06:44:53 PM
His aunt claimed he said - "They lied to me (about what?), they weren't asleep, they knew they were going to die... he (I) had to look them in the eye and shoot them"

In other words... he knew that two family members, Stephen and Arawa, were either up or just getting out of bed when he entered their rooms, and aware they were about to be shot.

I think I read somewhere he was told by the police they were shot whilst asleep/in bed and therefore unaware of what was about to befall them? 

However I will admit there are inconsistencies:

1 "They're all dead" but also said only observed parents, I think?
2 Checked SB for life hence transfer of blood to black rugby shorts and white tshirt
3 Heard LB "gurgling"

I don't have enough detail to understand.  Where does he say he only observed parents?  I don't know where victims were found?  Although SB fought for his life if he was on his bed would it be obvious he wasn't shot in sleep?  Was LB in bed?  AB was on floor? 

I have JK's book "Trial By Ambush" which I've yet to read.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
I think I read somewhere he was told by the police they were shot whilst asleep/in bed and therefore unaware of what was about to befall them? 

However I will admit there are inconsistencies:

1 "They're all dead" but also said only observed parents, I think?
2 Checked SB for life hence transfer of blood to black rugby shorts and white tshirt
3 Heard LB "gurgling"

I don't have enough detail to understand.  Where does he say he only observed parents?  I don't know where victims were found?  Although SB fought for his life if he was on his bed would it be obvious he wasn't shot in sleep?  Was LB in bed?  AB was on floor? 

I have JK's book "Trial By Ambush" which I've yet to read.

In the first interview with Det Sgt Greg Dunne, when DB was asked to confirm again that he'd only seen his deceased mum and dad. The YouTube video of Dunne's court testimony has been removed for some inexplicable reason, together with others, such as that of his aunt, re. black hands, etc. so can't link to them.  Luckily I downloaded them for reference before they disappeared for good, although the same audios are in MvB's podcasts, but can't remember which ones.

The victims were found roughly in the positions drawn on the floor plan... Stephen lying on his left side in front of a shoe rack with his feet pointing towards his bedroom door (his right hand visible in the photo I previously posted and below); Arawa lying on the floor, out of bed with her eyes facing towards that thick wooden column supporting David's bedroom floor above; Laniet in bed with her head on the pillow but the rest of her body, apart from left arm, covered in blankets.

Stephen might have awoken on hearing his mother being shot first, because his bedroom was just an offshoot of hers, which alerted him to something being amiss and so he was ready to resist, grabbing hold of the silencer in an attempt to push the rifle away.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 23, 2017, 08:08:59 PM
One of the two first police responders to the scene, Constable Kim Stephenson, gave evidence, "I was immediately struck by the magazine on its narrow edge right next to Mr Bain's hand. Right away I thought something wasn't right. When I think about the case that's what I think about".

David's "weeping and wailing" also made him suspicious, he says.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10353;image)

Dunedin police constable Kim Stephenson giving evidence at the second trial in 2009.  PC Stephenson was
one of two officers initially called to the scene.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10355;image)

The magazine belonging to the murder weapon was found by first responders sitting on its edge by Robin
Bain's hand.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 08:45:24 PM
Silly me!... found Greg Dunne's testimony again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V39E5LGbbEw&t=143s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V39E5LGbbEw&t=143s)

and... https://youtu.be/sIhQJCJCZtk?t=4m (https://youtu.be/sIhQJCJCZtk?t=4m)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 08:59:30 PM
One of the two first police responders to the scene, Constable Kim Stephenson, gave evidence, "I was immediately struck by the magazine on its narrow edge right next to Mr Bain's hand. Right away I thought something wasn't right. When I think about the case that's what I think about".

David's "weeping and wailing" also made him suspicious, he says.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10353;image)

Dunedin police constable Kim Stephenson giving evidence at the second trial in 2009.  PC Stephenson was
one of two officers initially called to the scene.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10355;image)

The magazine belonging to the murder weapon was found by first responders sitting on its edge by Robin
Bain's hand.


It's a curved 10 round magazine as well, standing like a soldier to attention on its convex edge.  How about that for self-righting balance!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 09:31:02 PM
Winchester rifle curved 10 round magazine...
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 23, 2017, 09:43:19 PM
Were either of the suspects fingers tested for GSR?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 23, 2017, 09:50:14 PM
Were either of the suspects fingers tested for GSR?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain)

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on August 23, 2017, 10:45:04 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain)

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue)

Thanx Myster.  Yes...dead men don't wash their hands!
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 24, 2017, 12:25:51 PM
One of the two first police responders to the scene, Constable Kim Stephenson, gave evidence, "I was immediately struck by the magazine on its narrow edge right next to Mr Bain's hand. Right away I thought something wasn't right. When I think about the case that's what I think about".

David's "weeping and wailing" also made him suspicious, he says.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10353;image)

Dunedin police constable Kim Stephenson giving evidence at the second trial in 2009.  PC Stephenson was
one of two officers initially called to the scene.


(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8428.0;attach=10355;image)

The magazine belonging to the murder weapon was found by first responders sitting on its edge by Robin
Bain's hand.

"The Curious Placement of the empty 10 shot magazine":

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8397.msg418656#msg418656

Assuming DB is innocent so few people will witness another taking on board such devastating news that it is surely difficult to get a handle on a 'normal' response.  From Justice Binnie's report:

"6. David Bain “Feigned A Fit” On The Morning Of 20 June As Proof Of Guilt

455. A couple of Police officers and ambulance personnel suggested that on the morning of
20 June David Bain was faking an emotional breakdown to paint himself as a victim rather than
the perpetrator.

456. The defence’s position is that David Bain did not feign a “fit”, but simply fainted, which
was not unexpected in the circumstances.

457. Numerous witnesses did not regard David Bain’s behaviour as contrived. The
undertaker Derrick Hope said, contrary to Bain family members who came and gave evidence
against David, that “David was in deep shock, emotionless, zombie like”267 “he was in even
deeper shock on Thursday, still zombie like”268 and “people act differently in death, there is no
set pattern”. The Telecom operator Wilblim269 said there was a lot of groaning and thought the
caller “must be on drugs or was drunk”. Dr Alex Dempster who saw David Bain before noon on
June 20 said “David Bain looked as if he was in a catatonic state, that is frozen in movement and
attitude.”270 Constable Stapp said “he was in real distress ... sounding hysterical, particularly
after he recovered from fainting” (emphasis added) and Constable Stephen described him as
“convulsing and having passed out”.

458. Dr Brinded considered that post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) explained David’s
conduct on the morning on 20 June as well as his partial memory loss. Dr Brinded freely
acknowledged that PTSD affects perpetrators as well as victims. The point however is that
David Bain’s “fainting” spell the morning after the killing of his family does not support the
suggestion that he was putting on a performance to mislead the investigators.

459. I accept the view that David Bain simply fainted. The whole issue is not of great
probative value in any event. Given the conflict of evidence it cannot be said the episode tips
the balance one way or the other. I am certainly not prepared to accept the assertion of the
Crown Law Office that on the morning of 20 June David Bain “feigned” a fit and otherwise put
on an artificial display of emotion designed to dupe the Police into thinking him innocent, as
part of an ingenious but incompetent cover-up

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 24, 2017, 12:32:28 PM
Winchester rifle curved 10 round magazine...

Two mags used: 10 round and 5 round found attached to rifle.  All 10 bullets were recovered:

MB = 1 from 10 mag
SB = 2? from 10 mag
LB = 3 from 10 mag
AB = ? from 10 mag

Where were the 10 recovered from? Victims?  Exited?  Unspent/misfired?

RB = 1 from 5 mag.  Were 4 remaining found in mag?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 24, 2017, 12:48:17 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2307272/No-gunshot-residue-found-on-Robin-Bain)

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/forensic-scientist-couldnt-find-gunshot-residue)

Hang on, hang on, hang on...

Justice Binnie covers GSR under the heading:

CHAPTER XVI:FAILURE TO TAKE PROPER STEPS TO INVESTIGATE INFORMATION ACTUALLY POSSESSED BY THE POLICE IN JUNE 1994 REGARDING THE POSSIBILITY OF DAVID BAIN’S INNOCENCE

(iii) Failure to test both Robin’s body and David promptly for firearm discharge residue

542. It is absolutely basic Police work in a firearms case, as laid out in the Detectives Manual
to preserve and test samples from a suspect’s hands and clothing for firearms discharge residue
(FDR). This will indicate if a person has recently fired a firearm. As explained in the Joint
Police/Police Complaints Authority Report (1997), the test involves “checking suspects for
discharge residue blown back on to [mainly] the hand which held the weapon. It is to be
expected in ideal conditions that minute particles could still be found on a live and active person
up to two/three hours after shooting occurred – provided the firer has not washed since. On a
dead body, the dust could remain much longer because it is only lost through movement.” (para
134)

543. The Police say they did not test David Bain the morning of 20 June because he said he
washed his hands to remove newsprint ink. This is curious. It must be rare for the Police not
to do a test because the individual concerned assures them that nothing of interest to the
prosecution will be found.

544. If the test had been done quickly on David and proved negative, it might have been of
assistance to establish his innocence. On the other hand, if FDR were found on Robin’s hands,
it would be an important indicator of suicide and would have been of great importance to the
defence. On the prosecution theory there would be no FDR on Robin’s hands.

545. Det. Sr Sgt Doyle was asked why Police had not checked David’s hands for firearms
residue after locating him in his room at 65 Every Street. He suggested it would have been
“insensitive” to do the test as David was then considered a victim.296 Yet by 11.00 am or so,
David Bain was at the Police station being strip searched and tested for FDR by Dr Pryde, who
found nothing positive.

546. Although Robin’s body had been properly wrapped in plastic when removed to the
mortuary, his hands were not separately bagged as required by the Detective Manual and the
296 Det. Sgt Doyle explains:
A. Exactly. Also – like as far as the Police were concerned, that morning David Bain was a victim of coming home
and finding this situation. I cannot in my own mind even imagine a Police officer with any sensitivity suddenly
going to him and saying, hey listen David we want to test your hands for firearm discharge residue within three
hours of us arriving at the house and not knowing the full facts. It’s just no possible.
Q. He was subjected to very invasive tests of the body wasn’t he? Swabs taken?
A. He was examined by a doctor.
Q. When was that done?
A. Later that day.
Q. It involves strip searching, swabs of intimate body parts, doesn’t it?
A. There are a number of tests, yes, all of those included.
Q. All of those are done?
A. Yes. (Emphasis added) (Retrial pages 146-50)
- 165 -
plastic sheeting (which might have collected any residue shaken loose in transit) was thrown
away. The Joint Police/Police Complaints Authority Report (1997) was critical of this
investigative failure:
“Again, with the benefit of hindsight, we find that earlier consideration
should have been given to preserving Robin’s hands and clothing for
firearm residue testing. At the very least his hands and lower arms
should have been enclosed in plastic/paper bags at the earlier
opportunity. Those containers should have been subsequently
examined for residue as should the upper outer clothing of David and
Robin. (para 142)

547. I do not accept that this was only clear “with the benefit of hindsight.” The procedure
was specifically laid down in the Detective Manual. Det. Sr Sgt Doyle accepted that this breach
of standard procedure was a Police responsibility.
A. Yes, yes, Detective Lodge. Detective Lodge had that
responsibility and he’s an experienced detective, he should
have, he should have done that.297
Comment: the Bain complaint is justified. Firearms Discharge Residue was perhaps David Bain’s
best hope of establishing Robin to be the murderer. Of course, the presence of FDR on David
might have been similarly helpful to the prosecution. The Crown Law Office says it is impossible
to say what the results of such tests would have been. This is true, but it was the failure of the
Police to do such basic tests in breach of the Detective Manual that created this unsatisfactory
situation.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 24, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
Silly me!... found Greg Dunne's testimony again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V39E5LGbbEw&t=143s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V39E5LGbbEw&t=143s)

and... https://youtu.be/sIhQJCJCZtk?t=4m (https://youtu.be/sIhQJCJCZtk?t=4m)

Thanks.  Were DB's police interviews recorded? 

This doesn't seem to have formed part of the prosecution case against DB?  It's important to clarify because DB claimed he checked SB for life, hence 'innocent' transfer of blood, and heard LB "gurgling" which is at odds with the emergency call and claims from his aunt.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 25, 2017, 12:19:42 AM
Robin Bain was a high standing Mason. Masonry was prevalent in Dunedin, my late father in law who lived in Dunedin had paraphernalia not allowed to be seen by family. When I stray into discussion of quasi cultism you should understand it is serious, because I aver clubs, religions, cults and so on.

This is an important key to the case, including the straightforward reason his fingerprints were (allegedly) not found on the gun.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on August 25, 2017, 06:52:28 AM
Robin Bain was a high standing Mason. Masonry was prevalent in Dunedin, my late father in law who lived in Dunedin had paraphernalia not allowed to be seen by family. When I stray into discussion of quasi cultism you should understand it is serious, because I aver clubs, religions, cults and so on.

This is an important key to the case, including the straightforward reason his fingerprints were (allegedly) not found on the gun.

That's right... when all else fails, bring on a Masonic conspiracy theory.

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 25, 2017, 08:36:25 AM
That's right... when all else fails, bring on a Masonic conspiracy theory.
Which is why I added the rider.
But here is a straightforward question.
Did Killer wear gloves?
We should workshop this question until a consensus is arrived at.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 25, 2017, 02:33:44 PM
Robin Bain was a high standing Mason. Masonry was prevalent in Dunedin, my late father in law who lived in Dunedin had paraphernalia not allowed to be seen by family. When I stray into discussion of quasi cultism you should understand it is serious, because I aver clubs, religions, cults and so on.

This is an important key to the case, including the straightforward reason his fingerprints were (allegedly) not found on the gun.

Samson I have had contact with a forensic scientist and arguably the world's expert on fingerprints in connection with JB's case.  I was told latent fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating known as bluing.  So the fact DB's prints were on the rifle but not RB's is not unusual.  I would like to see more evidence about the blood patterns on the opera gloves to determine whether the blood found on them was from direct contact with a source of blood or transferred.  Could the opera gloves be a sort of red herring in that they were simply hanging around amongst the debris of SB's room and became blood stained during the struggle rather than being worn by the perp? 

In JB's case we have one fingerprint from each of JB and SC on the rifle.  Much was woven into JM's testimony about gloves falling off but in reality the fingerprints found on the rifle support JB's earlier use and SC also handling the rifle. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on August 25, 2017, 09:56:30 PM
Samson I have had contact with a forensic scientist and arguably the world's expert on fingerprints in connection with JB's case.  I was told latent fingerprints are difficult to recover from firearms due to the coating known as bluing.  So the fact DB's prints were on the rifle but not RB's is not unusual.  I would like to see more evidence about the blood patterns on the opera gloves to determine whether the blood found on them was from direct contact with a source of blood or transferred.  Could the opera gloves be a sort of red herring in that they were simply hanging around amongst the debris of SB's room and became blood stained during the struggle rather than being worn by the perp? 

In JB's case we have one fingerprint from each of JB and SC on the rifle.  Much was woven into JM's testimony about gloves falling off but in reality the fingerprints found on the rifle support JB's earlier use and SC also handling the rifle.
The gloves represent a shield between the man and the deed. This seems credible. Binnie points out Robin could wear David's gloves but not David wear Robins as an aside. Robin would fetch the gloves nd gun at the same time from David's room. After killing the family he would lean the gun against the wall and never touch the gun stock again in the suicide motion. It has never been suggested the gloves were incidental, they were worn, so there is a clear reason to be sought.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on September 10, 2017, 02:09:45 PM
The gloves represent a shield between the man and the deed. This seems credible. Binnie points out Robin could wear David's gloves but not David wear Robins as an aside. Robin would fetch the gloves nd gun at the same time from David's room. After killing the family he would lean the gun against the wall and never touch the gun stock again in the suicide motion. It has never been suggested the gloves were incidental, they were worn, so there is a clear reason to be sought.

And I would add that anyone contemplating murder suicide will not be concerned with wearing gloves or hiding evidence. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on September 10, 2017, 07:58:53 PM
And I would add that anyone contemplating murder suicide will not be concerned with wearing gloves or hiding evidence.
How do you know Robin was contemplating suicide? He was not contemplating anything until he was blindsided by the incest Laniet had revealed to her mother.
And despite the terrible lies of Judith Collins, most New Zealanders understand that David Bain is innocent. The UMR figures from 2009 are, quote

► We've asked similar questions in the past about other high- profile trials:
► On all five occasions we tested opinions on the David Bain case, those who thought Bain was innocent outnumbered those who thought he was guilty.    
The last time we asked about this was in April 2009, when 47% thought that he was innocent and 29% believed he was guilty.
 
► 22% of us thought that Scott Watson was innocent of murdering Olivia Hope and Ben Smart, while 42% believed he
was guilty (May 2007)

► Only 4% believed that Mark Lundy did not kill his wife and daughter, compared with 65% who thought he did do it
(May 2007)
► 50% thought that Peter Ellis was innocent in the Christchurch Civic Creche case, while 23% believed he was guilty
(January 2004).

Frankly John, David Bain's innocence is not contested by serious analysts, it is a beat up designed by the national party, because conservatives live on the side of the law that never encounters police trickery. Polls drive politics in New Zealand and John Key was a master. His plebescite believe police work is definitive so David Bain was sacrificed and his due compensation stolen from him by immoral thugs in government.

Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on September 10, 2017, 10:58:01 PM
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position.  His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 12, 2017, 03:41:34 PM
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position.  His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?

I find this confusing.  DB was found not guilty at his retrial.  The NZ gov then requested reports to assess whether DB was 'factually innocent' in order to be eligible for compensation.  And yet at trial or retrial no one has to prove his/her innocence.  Instead the prosecution have to show the defendant guilty which in DB's case at retrial they failed to do hence a verdict of 'not guilty'.  I think similar happened with Sion Jenkins in terms of verdict but no compensation?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 12, 2017, 04:15:04 PM
Reading the Mail on Sunday (yes my dirty little secret) the front page was about former PM Edward (Ted) Heath and claims about child sexual abuse. 

I am all for this being investigated but the problem, as with Robin Bain, is that the man is not here to respond and if applicable defend himself.  A lot of people seem to be of the opinion he was above anything like child sexual abuse  based on his background and position alone.  A few have suggested the security surrounding him was so high he would not have had the opportunity which sounds reasonable.  Also the fact he was a bit of a mystery sexually might have alerted the intelligence services to place him on the radar.  Afaik he didn't form any intimate/sexual relationships with men or women.  It is said he was asexual but most people aren't asexual.  If they were the human race would soon become extinct!

Anyway back to Robin Bain the problem is similar in that RB was said to be a God fearing man, missionary, strong Presbyterian, scout leader, school teacher and therefore in the eyes of many this puts him above reproach which I simply don't buy into.  Numerous witnesses came forward to testify that his daughter, Laniet, was involved in an incestuous relationship with her father.  If this is true it seems it started when she was below the age of consent.  Also a witness came forward saying his other daughter, Arawa, had told her RB introduced her to a sexual practice at the age of 10.  The question I would like answered is was Robin Bain a paedophile?  If he sexually abused his daughters did it remain there or did he seek out opportunities elsewhere?  Was PNG the sort of place that would present such opportunities?  Again not nice to point the figure when the man is unable to answer and defend himself.

I'm inclined to think RB was responsible based on the above and the reason DB was spared is that he went to bed early for his paper round and was not privy to Laniet's disclosures.  Perhaps it wasn't just Laniet's disclosures but Arawa's too.  Maybe Margaret Bain suspected hence her referring to her husband as the Devil and banishing him to an outside caravan.   

Samson I am surprised the Baines did not come to the attention of social services or whatever you call them in NZ?  Surely the state of 65 Every Street was enough to alert most something was seriously amiss?  Judge Callinan said police officers had to wear masks at time due to the smell  8)><(  He questioned how anyone willingly lived there and thought the occupants had become desensitised to their surroundings.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on September 13, 2017, 04:13:46 PM
Holly there are many different lifestyles in NZ as no doubt everywhere, and no one interferes, which is as it should be. They were all essentially adults except Stephen, free to move.

Robin Bain killed his family, then because David was out he left a note of regret to David on the computer just before shooting himself. Joe Karam proved all this, nothing will ever change these facts. Lamenting Robin's ability to speak out is somewhat circular. He never meant to screw David's life so comprehensively, but it was incest, corroborated by several witnesses who could not testify. David has been kind to his father by never using it to defend himself.

Here is a post I put to kiwi blog.

In this verbatim extract from Kim Hill's interview with Ian Binnie, he demonstrates that Judith Collins did not read his report, and that Michael Guest and John Pike might  be deemed to have violated their duty to New Zealand courts. What Judith Collins did was an unspeakable outrage, she must be voted from office for this, and be seen to have ruled herself from any position that can do further damage to New Zealand's international reputation.
In the rest of the interview Binnie shows total command of the science, logistics and motivations in the mass murder suicide by Robin Bain.
Maybe someone will be civilised enough to GENERALLY DEBATE matters in this interview and the concerns I have just outlined. Ideally the three he accuses of deceit will answer his specific allegations publicly some day, because they will never disappear.

KH:
Right.. and you wrote up your report, and you sent it off, what was the first inkling you got, that the government or the minister was unhappy with it.
IB:
I had some inkling beforehand that the minister was a sort of Law and Order character and she was not going to be pleased with my view, the first contact I had, I was summonsed - I was in Cairo at the time, to come to Auckland to meet with the Minister,
KH:
This is Judith Collins now..
IB:
Yes Judith Collins, and I had a 15 minute meeting, which meant I’d spent about an hour in an aeroplane for every minute I had with the Minister, I had the very clear impression she had not read my report.
She certainly knew what the bottom line was, and she had a briefing note, which I had been given beforehand, which set out three points, those are the only points that she touched on, and when I responded, one of them was this thing about Michael Guest, er, Michael Guest says he’s guilty.
KH:
Michael Guest is a lawyer?
IB:
Michael Guest is the original defence lawyer, and defence lawyers aren’t very happy when a client spends 13yrs in jail, and is then acquitted by the Privy Council - why the minister would attach importance to what Michael Guest said, is beyond me, but the minister did not seem to realise,
KH:
But hang on, you’re saying Michael Guest is a defence lawyer right?
IB:
Yep.
KH:
So why would a defence lawyer feel obliged to say that David Bain is now guilty are you suggesting that because someone else has found him innocent, he’s aggrieved?
IB:
No no what Im suggesting is that there's a certain level of professional embarrassment if you have unsuccessfully defended  somebody... it makes you feel better in the end if they’re guilty anyway.
KH:
Alright I understand... yep.
IB:
My point is this, that when I replied to the ministers point about Michael Guest has sent me an email that David Bain is guilty, I mean there was zero registration on the face of the minister, (long pause) that I had even dealt with this in my report. And in fact what she
was telling me, I had already ACCEPTED in the report in black and white, I said on this point, I said I accept what Michael Guest said, the minister didn’t seem to realise that.
KH:
By which you deduce that she did not read the report.
IB:
Well there were a number of items er.. for example she has one or another of her points had to do with Sir Thomas Thorpe, who had interviewed David Bain, who really concluded that his application for clemency shouldn’t go anywhere because... er there was nothing to it - well of course a few years later the Privy Council said yes! theres a lot! Theres a lot here and theres a real problem with this case and we are quashing the convictions not as technical miscarriages of justice but the word they used was this has been an ACTUAL miscarriage of justice.
So how one can leap-frog back over the Privy Council to ’Tommy Thorpe’ she called him, years before and say well look what Tommy Thorpe says, suggests that she had no grip of anything that had gone on, ah in between, all of which was in my report.
KH:
It seems that Judith Collins told Dr Robert Fisher that she believed that there were significant problems with your report I wonder, how she concluded that.. have you any ideas?
IB:
Yes I have no doubt at all that the prosecutors John Pike and er, his colleague, had been with the Bain case for years, they were very heavily committed to the prosecution they had gone to the Privy Council - lost at the Privy Council, had gone into this 12 week re-trial, lost at the retrial. they didn’t want to give up! There is no way Judith Collins could have prepared that letter of instruction, I think it came straight from the prosecutors and she signed off, and away we went.


Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on September 13, 2017, 04:21:20 PM
Samson. David Bain is in an unenviable position.  His retrial found him not guilty yet the recent judge led government report would appear to question this verdict.

The suspicious evidence and the government report aside, the actions of David Bain following the initial call to police were extremely suspicious and not in the least consistent with innocence. That said, what enduring piece of evidence in your view proves his innocent?
Behaviour after tragedy causes immense trouble for people, they just can't grasp that all behaviour CAN be construed as odd
The single data point I keep repeating, the plan the crown contends, needed a one shot suicide compatible trajectory for completion. This is what the crime scene shows, BUT YOU CAN"T PLAN THIS.
I keep saying it. Robin was fresh and awake, and compliance is impossible to expect.
I say the same of Jeremy Bamber.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 13, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
Holly there are many different lifestyles in NZ as no doubt everywhere, and no one interferes, which is as it should be. They were all essentially adults except Stephen, free to move.
SNIP

Sure if the lifestyles don't involve breaking the law and/or pose serious risks to others.  If Laniet's claims, as told by witnesses, are true then she was sexually abused by her father.  The same for Arawa who it is claimed told a friend her father introduced her to a sexual practice when she was 10.  If the claims are true it is child sexual abuse and RB was a paedophile.   

The educational psychologist who interviewed the family in PNG highlighted the children running around naked and wild with the Bain home in an unspeakably chaotic and dirty mess.  MB was home schooling the children in PNG. When they arrived back in NZ at a mainstream school they struggled to read and write and were way behind their peers. 

I rather think if this was a low socio-economic family they would be on radars.  As the Bains were considered middle class, professional and religious it seems the parents had free rein, anything went and they were untouchable.

Then we have the outcome: 4 murders, a suicide and as you said DB's life comprehensively screwed.  Did this just happen overnight on a whim?  No it was a grossly dysfunctional family that had teetered on the edge for many years and the warning signs were there.

We have the exact same situation in JB's case.  June Bamber had a nervous breakdown in 1955 over her inability to conceive birth children.  This obviously didn't prevent her being approved as a suitable adopter for SC in 1957.  In 1959 June suffered depression as a result of her decision to adopt.  She required in-patient psychiatric treatment and electroconvulsive therapy.  She was allowed to keep SC and approved to adopt JB in 1961.  SC and JB were looked after by nannies and then sent off to boarding school.  By all accounts relationships were strained especially between SC and June.  There's now much scientific evidence showing where babies fail to form attachments with caregivers they are at risk for all the sorts of problems experienced by SC.  In fact a recent study has shown a correlation between adults with poor attachment styles and filicide.

http://www.scie-socialcareonline.org.uk/mothers-who-murdered-their-child-an-attachment-based-study-on-filicide/r/a1CG0000003YPZHMA4 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6891.msg295342#msg295342

On the surface the Bambers appeared ideal adopters: affluent, Christians, middle class but in reality they were anything but suitable.       
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 14, 2017, 04:32:14 PM
SNIP

Here is a post I put to kiwi blog.

In this verbatim extract from Kim Hill's interview with Ian Binnie, he demonstrates that Judith Collins did not read his report, and that Michael Guest and John Pike might  be deemed to have violated their duty to New Zealand courts. What Judith Collins did was an unspeakable outrage, she must be voted from office for this, and be seen to have ruled herself from any position that can do further damage to New Zealand's international reputation.
In the rest of the interview Binnie shows total command of the science, logistics and motivations in the mass murder suicide by Robin Bain.
Maybe someone will be civilised enough to GENERALLY DEBATE matters in this interview and the concerns I have just outlined. Ideally the three he accuses of deceit will answer his specific allegations publicly some day, because they will never disappear.

SNIP

Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice. 
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 14, 2017, 04:45:42 PM
Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice.

Samson lets assume RB was of no particular faith and worked in a warehouse with MB a cashier in a local convenience store and all lived in council accommodation.  Do you think the Bain parents and their children would still have fallen under the radar?
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on September 15, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
Has the minister for children/families (or whatever he/she is referred to in NZ) been involved?  If not why not?

- When the Bain children returned to NZ they were way behind their peers academically having been home
schooled by MB in PNG.
- Laniet's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- Laniet working in the sex industry.
- Laniet smoking cannabis.  Not in itself a big deal but was she using it as a form of escapism? 
- Arawa's claims of sexual abuse at the hands of her father.
- SB (14 yoa) in trouble with the law (according to MVB).  No idea what the offence(s) were?
- The physical state of 65 ES: chaotic, dilapidated, dirty and unhygenic to the point most would regard it as indicative of deeper problems with the parents allowing the place to get into such a state rather than simply a lifestyle choice.
The judicial and police line has always been that the incest allegations were fabricated, this suits the prosecution of David Bain, which effectively continues to this day after Judith Collins defrauded David of his compensation. It is so grotesque she is still suggested as a future National Party leader. She is a poisonous swine in lip stick.
She was sacked and reinstated as a cabinet minister, it is a national disgrace.
Families do not get killed without a motive. It is hard to conceive a more classic motive than pending social humiliation and possible police action against Robin.
It is what happened.
Similarly, the plan to take her children from her was playing with fire with Sheila Caffel.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Samson on September 15, 2017, 12:17:21 AM
Samson lets assume RB was of no particular faith and worked in a warehouse with MB a cashier in a local convenience store and all lived in council accommodation.  Do you think the Bain parents and their children would still have fallen under the radar?
In New Zealand there is grinding poverty in the Maori community, by the time this and meth is dealt with there is no attention paid to middle class families.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2017, 10:04:18 AM
The judicial and police line has always been that the incest allegations were fabricated, this suits the prosecution of David Bain, which effectively continues to this day after Judith Collins defrauded David of his compensation. It is so grotesque she is still suggested as a future National Party leader. She is a poisonous swine in lip stick.
She was sacked and reinstated as a cabinet minister, it is a national disgrace.
Families do not get killed without a motive. It is hard to conceive a more classic motive than pending social humiliation and possible police action against Robin.
It is what happened.
Similarly, the plan to take her children from her was playing with fire with Sheila Caffel.

A lot of historic cases of child sexual abuse involve children not being listened to.  In Laniet's case numerous unconnected witnesses came forward.  A further unconnected witnesses came forward claiming Arawa had discussed her father introducing her to a sexual practice.  By unconnected I mean the various witnesses were unknown to each other. 

I still think the relevant authorities should have looked into the backgrounds from a child welfare perspective as opposed to just judicial: RB v DB.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: John on September 20, 2017, 04:27:16 PM
Behaviour after tragedy causes immense trouble for people, they just can't grasp that all behaviour CAN be construed as odd
The single data point I keep repeating, the plan the crown contends, needed a one shot suicide compatible trajectory for completion. This is what the crime scene shows, BUT YOU CAN"T PLAN THIS.
I keep saying it. Robin was fresh and awake, and compliance is impossible to expect.
I say the same of Jeremy Bamber.

I repeat, his behaviour prior to the attendance of police was bizarre and most certainly NOT WHAT ONE WOULD EXPECT FROM AN INNOCENT PERSON who had just found their entire family murdered.

I don't buy it and neither did the forensic experts. If the case was as cut and dried as you suggest it wouldn't have attracted such continuing debate all these years later with the country still split down the middle as to what really happened.



An ESR forensic scientist says Robin Bain's head wound was more likely to have resulted from a shot fired from a distance than a shot fired in a suicide scenario.

Kevan Walsh told the David Bain retrial in the High Court in Christchurch today he conducted test firings in 1997 with the murder rifle on pork skin and also viewed the photographs taken of Robin Bain's head wound.

Although the wound "may well" be a contact wound, with someone holding the muzzle of the gun against the left temple, his viewing of the photographs led him to his opinion it was more likely Robin Bain was shot at a distance beyond 200mm.

He said Robin's wound had less soot around its margins than would be expected with a contact wound and given the direction of the bullet the blackening around the wound could be bullet wipe (the bullet cleaning itself on the skin surface).

He had not seen tearing in the wound which would be expected from a contact shot because gas went into the entry hole.

David Bain, 37, is charged with shooting his parents and three siblings on 20 June, 1994, using a .22 semi automatic rifle.

The assertion Robin Bain shot his family and then himself with a close contact shot to his left temple is central to the defence's theory.

Walsh said he had also conducted test firings of the rifle to study the ejection pattern of bullet shells. His tests showed a shell ejected from a shot fired where Robin Bain's body was found was most likely to have hit curtains near the body but could also have gone through a gap in the curtain or under it.

The evidence refers to the finding of a spent .22 shell in a computer alcove on the other side of the curtains to where Robin's body was found. The shell is said to support the Crown theory that David Bain was hiding behind the curtains when he shot his father at a short distance.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2342142/Bain-trial-Robin-Bains-head-wound
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: steve_trousers on May 16, 2019, 09:33:56 PM
David Bain can be heard muttering "I shot the...." in the 111 call to emergency services.

Some people think he says "I shot the prick" but to my ears it is ambiguous as to whether he says the word "prick" or not. but no doubt at all he uttered " I shot the.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mC_U--i-no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mC_U--i-no)

Make of it what you will, I certainly find it compelling though of course it does not prove his guilt.
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: steve_trousers on February 28, 2020, 11:31:34 PM

Here is a link to an interesting podcast on the case, very detailed.

 https://youtu.be/LxzG7ga6xJY   (https://youtu.be/LxzG7ga6xJY)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: Myster on February 29, 2020, 03:22:06 PM
Here is a link to an interesting podcast on the case, very detailed.

 https://youtu.be/LxzG7ga6xJY   (https://youtu.be/LxzG7ga6xJY)
I downloaded the full series when first published and thought they were very well done by Martin van Beynen.  Well worth a listen, although you need to have more than just a passing interest in the case, and time to concentrate on it fully, I think.

More info, photos, plans and a police video of the Bain house here...

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/ (https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/blackhands/house-of-horrors/)

A list of the podcast series.  Start at no.1 House Of Horrors and work down to no.10.  All can be downloaded instead by clicking on their down arrows at the extreme right and following the chain of links...

https://player.whooshkaa.com/black-hands-a-family-mass-murder (https://player.whooshkaa.com/black-hands-a-family-mass-murder)
Title: Re: A look at the Bain family murders which occurred in Dunedin NZ in 1994.
Post by: steve_trousers on March 01, 2020, 12:33:01 PM
Thanks Myster, interesting to see the video of the house. I agree it's a good, professional job by Van Beynen in presenting the facts from both sides and a must for anyone interested in the case.

I approached with an open mind to the prospect of a MoJ, but looking at all the evidence, the only miscarriage is him being acquitted at the 2nd trial.

For me what sticks out is his bloodied fingerprints all over the gun (and Robin's lack of) could only have meant one thing. The investigation failing to test this blood allowed Bain at trial to claim it was rabbit blood and plant the seed of reasonable doubt in some of the jury.