UK Justice Forum

Other High Profile Cases and Persons of Interest => Twenty years on, the mystery of who shot Jill Dando still prevails. => Topic started by: Nicholas on March 30, 2018, 02:08:07 PM

Title: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 30, 2018, 02:08:07 PM
Whilst Barry George's "odd" behaviour may not make him a murderer, doubts still remain.

Investigative journalist Mark Williams Thomas looked again at the the case and presented his findings which appeared to point away from George. But how do any of us know whether he had been influenced in any way by his bias?

Barry George is not innocent enough for compensation!

High Court judges ruled “There was indeed a case upon which a reasonable jury, properly directed, could have convicted the claimant of murder."

To what evidence were the judges referring?

386
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 11:32:04 AM
Barry George's uncle has written a book about his nephew and has stated he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?

He also makes a statement regarding a comment Barry George made after watching some film on TV about a murder.

His book is an eye opener and IMO paints a very different story to the one his sister Michelle Bates has portrayed. Especially given the fact she always alluded to me she had kept out of all the feuds?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=barry+george+mappa&source=bl&ots=Osv57MD-fI&sig=t2RQTED03Q5wPp3fZSSWGXI5PAk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixl8LMh5XaAhXqKsAKHfBfDZM4ChDoATAKegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mappa&f=false

He concludes his book with:

"God is in the detail if one digs deep enough"

My own opinion on this case is; if one digs deep enough into the facts, all isn't as it appears.

Barry George is most definitely not as odd or indeed dumb as his family want us to believe IMO. I'm with the prosecution on this. Expert opinion is just that. George has spent convictions for attempted rape and indecent assault and is still deemed a risk to the public. Are we to ignore these facts because his murder conviction was overturned on a technicality?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 01:02:17 PM
Barry George's uncle has written a book about his nephew and has stated he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?

He also makes a statement regarding a comment Barry George made after watching some film on TV about a murder.

His book is an eye opener and IMO paints a very different story to the one his sister Michelle Bates has portrayed. Especially given the fact she always alluded to me she had kept out of all the feuds?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=barry+george+mappa&source=bl&ots=Osv57MD-fI&sig=t2RQTED03Q5wPp3fZSSWGXI5PAk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixl8LMh5XaAhXqKsAKHfBfDZM4ChDoATAKegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mappa&f=false

He concludes his book with:

"God is in the detail if one digs deep enough"

My own opinion on this case is; if one digs deep enough into the facts, all isn't as it appears.

Barry George is most definitely not as odd or indeed dumb as his family want us to believe IMO. I'm with the prosecution on this. Expert opinion is just that. George has spent convictions for attempted rape and indecent assault and is still deemed a risk to the public. Are we to ignore these facts because his murder conviction was overturned on a technicality?

All a bit too convoluted for me, Stephanie.  He was eventually acquitted of this particular crime because the evidence was deemed to be flawed.

He should at least have been given some compensation for the fact that The Prosecution offered flawed evidence.  If you can't trust The Prosecution then where does that leave Justice?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 02:11:42 PM
All a bit too convoluted for me, Stephanie.  He was eventually acquitted of this particular crime because the evidence was deemed to be flawed.

He should at least have been given some compensation for the fact that The Prosecution offered flawed evidence.  If you can't trust The Prosecution then where does that leave Justice?

Yes I agree. The law can be extremely complex and difficult to follow, especially so in cases like Barry George, but it's why cases like this are tested on their own merits.

In the Supreme Court ruling, Lord Phillips, the then president, said the "mere quashing" of a conviction could not be a "trigger for compensation".

He said the new "test" would not guarantee that all those entitled to compensation were innocent. But those who could not prove their innocence beyond reasonable doubt would not be "precluded" from obtaining compensation.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 02:15:09 PM
All a bit too convoluted for me, Stephanie.  He was eventually acquitted of this particular crime because the evidence was deemed to be flawed.

He should at least have been given some compensation for the fact that The Prosecution offered flawed evidence.  If you can't trust The Prosecution then where does that leave Justice?

What is your understanding of the evidence in this case?

Barry George has yet to show conclusively that he is innocent of the crime he was originally convicted
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13356120
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
My brother, who was wrongly convicted of the murder of TV presenter, Jill Dando, has never been awarded any compensation for the years he spent incarcerated for this killing. His conviction was quashed in 2007, and he was then released in 2008, when the jury at his second trial unanimously found him not guilty. Since then, we have tried every avenue we could think of to get this government to correct the wrong, and to make recompense for all that he has lost.’
Michelle Bates

http://www.thejusticegap.com/2015/12/2015-a-year-in-the-justice-gap/

Maybe it's finally time for Michelle Bates to be transparent in order to convince those of us who believe him to not be innocent enough.

And maybe she would be open and honest enough to publicise the total sum of money her brother accrued since his conviction was over turned?

All I'm witnessing is greed; which has nothing to do with truth or justice.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 03:24:46 PM

In so far as I understand The Law, Reasonable Doubt lies with the Accused.  It is not for the Accused to prove Innocence, but for The Prosecution to prove Guilt.  This they obviously didn't do.
This is what Innocent until Proven Guilty means.

You cannot say that someone isn't innocent enough just because you don't like him.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 03:32:36 PM
My brother, who was wrongly convicted of the murder of TV presenter, Jill Dando, has never been awarded any compensation for the years he spent incarcerated for this killing. His conviction was quashed in 2007, and he was then released in 2008, when the jury at his second trial unanimously found him not guilty. Since then, we have tried every avenue we could think of to get this government to correct the wrong, and to make recompense for all that he has lost.’
Michelle Bates

http://www.thejusticegap.com/2015/12/2015-a-year-in-the-justice-gap/

Maybe it's finally time for Michelle Bates to be transparent in order to convince those of us who believe him to not be innocent enough.

And maybe she would be open and honest enough to publicise the total sum of money her brother accrued since his conviction was over turned?

All I'm witnessing is greed; which has nothing to do with truth or justice.

You try being locked up for eight years for a crime that you didn't commit, during which you had no recourse to earning anything.
Hardly Greed.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:34:07 PM
In so far as I understand The Law, Reasonable Doubt lies with the Accused.  It is not for the Accused to prove Innocence, but for The Prosecution to prove Guilt.  This they obviously didn't do.
This is what Innocent until Proven Guilty means.

You cannot say that someone isn't innocent enough just because you don't like him.

But who's telling the truth Eleanor?

Barry George https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynZjv5xAQmc

Or the crown prosecution?

I don't for one minute believe the CPS went after George because they didn't like him - they wouldn't get away with that surely?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:42:05 PM
You try being locked up for eight years for a crime that you didn't commit, during which you had no recourse to earning anything.
Hardly Greed.

But how do any of us know for sure he didn't do it? We are referring to a man with previous convictions for attempted rape and indecent assault. Has he been rehabilitated? The facts he's still under MAPPA would suggest not?

And how much was earning before he was locked up?




Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 03:48:32 PM
But who's telling the truth Eleanor?

Barry George https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynZjv5xAQmc

Or the crown prosecution?

I don't for one minute believe the CPS went after George because they didn't like him - they wouldn't get away with that surely?

But they didn't get away with it, did they.  That is the point.  But he spent a long time in prison during the process.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:49:38 PM
In so far as I understand The Law, Reasonable Doubt lies with the Accused.  It is not for the Accused to prove Innocence, but for The Prosecution to prove Guilt.  This they obviously didn't do.
This is what Innocent until Proven Guilty means.

You cannot say that someone isn't innocent enough just because you don't like him.

Barry George was wrongly convicted which is not the same as a miscarriage of justice, as I understand it

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/11/barry-george-compensated-supreme-court
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 03:56:01 PM
Barry George was wrongly convicted which is not the same as a miscarriage of justice, as I understand it

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/11/barry-george-compensated-supreme-court

Why bother with Trials?

It is no longer a Miscarriage of Justice because he has been Acquitted.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:58:26 PM
But they didn't get away with it, did they.  That is the point.  But he spent a long time in prison during the process.

Are you claiming the police initially went after George because they didn't like him?

"Jonathan Laidlaw QC, prosecuting, said Dando's death had been the result of the actions of "a loner, a man acting alone with no rational motive to kill".

He said George, 48, had a history of complex medical problems and had told police he had a "personality disorder".

"He had a fixation with the famous and with celebrities," the prosecutor said. "For many years, he lived out the fantasy by calling himself after, and adopting the names of, various entertainers."

George changed his name twice by deed poll, once to Paul Gadd, the real name of the singer Gary Glitter, and then to Steve Majors, an amalgamation of Steve Austin, the protagonist of the TV programme The Six Million Dollar Man, and Lee Majors, the actor who played the role.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 03:59:26 PM
Why bother with Trials?

It is no longer a Miscarriage of Justice because he has been Acquitted.

You appear to have missed this https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/11/barry-george-compensated-supreme-court
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 04:13:05 PM
Are you claiming the police initially went after George because they didn't like him?

"Jonathan Laidlaw QC, prosecuting, said Dando's death had been the result of the actions of "a loner, a man acting alone with no rational motive to kill".

He said George, 48, had a history of complex medical problems and had told police he had a "personality disorder".

"He had a fixation with the famous and with celebrities," the prosecutor said. "For many years, he lived out the fantasy by calling himself after, and adopting the names of, various entertainers."

George changed his name twice by deed poll, once to Paul Gadd, the real name of the singer Gary Glitter, and then to Steve Majors, an amalgamation of Steve Austin, the protagonist of the TV programme The Six Million Dollar Man, and Lee Majors, the actor who played the role.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime

What was the personality disorder, does anyone know and is it because of "a personality disorder" that George was a convicted sex offender?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: John on March 31, 2018, 04:16:30 PM
Barry George was wrongly convicted which is not the same as a miscarriage of justice, as I understand it

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/11/barry-george-compensated-supreme-court

The whole thing was a disgrace frankly that someone like George could ever be seen as being capable of such a crime without leaving a forensic footprint behind.  SY has lost much credibility over this case and still haven't provided George with an appropriate apology.
Title: Re: Should Barry George face a retrial?
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 04:26:53 PM
The whole thing was a disgrace frankly that someone like George could ever be seen as being capable of such a crime without leaving a forensic footprint behind.

If you can keep an open mind for the time being and put aside what you have read about Barry George and concentrate on the facts of the evidence I'd be grateful. We can revisit SY at some point.

Bob Woffinden -2002
"In July 2001, Barry George was convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, after a year-long police investigation and an eight-week trial. Many of the lawyers and reporters who attended the trial had anticipated an acquittal, but the jurors convicted on a 10:1 majority.
The evidence against George - resting primarily on an invisible particle of explosives residue found on the lining of his coat - was remarkably thin. He lived in a cluttered and uncleaned flat. He was inept, disorganised and had suffered learning difficulties all his life. He had a number of personality disorders (the prosecution claimed to have identified at least six). He was not only unemployed, but unemployable, and had not had a job for more than 20 years.

The murder, on Monday, April 26 1999, bore the hallmarks of a ruthless and well thought-out operation. And, only three days earlier, British and US planes had bombed the Radio-Television Serbia building in Belgrade, killing 16 employees in an attack described by Tony Blair as "entirely justified". Earlier that month, Dando had made a high-profile BBC appeal on behalf of Kosovan Albanian refugees. Before long, there was speculation that the two events were linked, and that Dando had been killed in retaliation for the Nato bombing of Serbian journalists.

Following George's conviction, the case continued to be beset by controversy. One of the officers involved in the inquiry resigned after failing to disclose a media contact (he was later reinstated on appeal); a second officer was accused of harassment by a witness, although she later withdrew her allegations. The conviction hangs on that speck of explosives residue that might, as Mansfield argued in court, have come from almost anywhere. It might have been fireworks, or the coat could have become contaminated while in police custody (it was photographed before forensic analysis, so the possibilities for contamination were considerable). As such, the conviction joins a lengthening list of cases in which forensic evidence has been allowed to overwhelm other pieces of evidence.

At least the man who may be ultimately responsible for Dando's death is no longer in a position to wreak further slaughter - Slobodan Milosevic is now at the Hague, standing trial for war crimes.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/06/jilldando.weekend7
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 04:36:16 PM
Are you claiming the police initially went after George because they didn't like him?

"Jonathan Laidlaw QC, prosecuting, said Dando's death had been the result of the actions of "a loner, a man acting alone with no rational motive to kill".

He said George, 48, had a history of complex medical problems and had told police he had a "personality disorder".

"He had a fixation with the famous and with celebrities," the prosecutor said. "For many years, he lived out the fantasy by calling himself after, and adopting the names of, various entertainers."

George changed his name twice by deed poll, once to Paul Gadd, the real name of the singer Gary Glitter, and then to Steve Majors, an amalgamation of Steve Austin, the protagonist of the TV programme The Six Million Dollar Man, and Lee Majors, the actor who played the role.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime

No.  I am saying that The Prosecution Case was Flawed.

The Prosecuting QC said....  What he said doesn't make Barry George a Murderer.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 04:47:48 PM
No.  I am saying that The Prosecution Case was Flawed.

The Prosecuting QC said....  What he said doesn't make Barry George a Murderer.

Point me to a case where a prosecution isn't flawed or rather point me to a case where a prosecution is 100 per cent spot on.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 05:31:18 PM
No.  I am saying that The Prosecution Case was Flawed.

The Prosecuting QC said....  What he said doesn't make Barry George a Murderer.

Can you point me to the trial transcripts and the Judgement handed down in the original trial please

I've found this http://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext but I want to go back to the beginning before the media muddied the waters..
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 05:41:05 PM
Can you point me to the trial transcripts and the Judgement handed down in the original trial please

I've found this http://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext but I want to go back to the beginning before the media muddied the waters..

No, I can't.  I am basing my opinion on the fact that The Appeal Court overturned his conviction.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 05:45:04 PM
No, I can't.  I am basing my opinion on the fact that The Appeal Court overturned his conviction.

So your opinion is based on part of the picture as opposed to the full picture, or have I misunderstood?

There's an interesting article here re the autism spectrum

"Little is known about the prevalence of violence and autistic spectrum disorders. This article reviews findings of current research on Asperger's disorder and violence. Criteria for diagnosing Asperger's disorder are given. Three cases are presented in which defendants with diagnosed Asperger's disorder were charged with murder. Specific symptoms in this disorder are discussed as they relate to issues of diminished capacity and criminal responsi

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/features/Understanding-What-Defendant-Asperger’s-Syndrome-Understood
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 05:52:25 PM
The whole thing was a disgrace frankly that someone like George could ever be seen as being capable of such a crime without leaving a forensic footprint behind.  SY has lost much credibility over this case and still haven't provided George with an appropriate apology.

Can you point me to where I can see for myself a list of what the police originally gathered from the crime scene? The exhibits seized and all items tested etc..

Whilst the courts are stating George isn't innocent enough I doubt he'll get an apology. I imagine Jill Dando's murder investigation will need re-opening
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 06:07:37 PM
So your opinion is based on part of the picture as opposed to the full picture, or have I misunderstood?

There's an interesting article here re the autism spectrum

"Little is known about the prevalence of violence and autistic spectrum disorders. This article reviews findings of current research on Asperger's disorder and violence. Criteria for diagnosing Asperger's disorder are given. Three cases are presented in which defendants with diagnosed Asperger's disorder were charged with murder. Specific symptoms in this disorder are discussed as they relate to issues of diminished capacity and criminal responsi

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/features/Understanding-What-Defendant-Asperger’s-Syndrome-Understood

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361315583411

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, Barry George has Asperger's syndrome (Nugnug posted this over on blue)
 
Robert Napper has been diagnosed with aspergers and paranoid schizophrenia, he's currently serving time in Broadmoor.

Why was someone like Barry George sent to prison as opposed to a secure hospital in the first place? And did his family ever attempt to have him transferred to a mental health facility during the time he was in prison?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

https://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/18571-barry-george-has-aspergers/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 06:21:02 PM
You cannot say that someone isn't innocent enough just because you don't like him.

I don't believe George is "innocent enough" because I have doubts. It has nothing to do with my dislike of him or his sister, if that is what you are alluding to and everything to do with what I have learned over the past few years.





Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 07:32:46 PM
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361315583411

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know, Barry George has Asperger's syndrome (Nugnug posted this over on blue)
 
Robert Napper has been diagnosed with aspergers and paranoid schizophrenia, he's currently serving time in Broadmoor.

Why was someone like Barry George sent to prison as opposed to a secure hospital in the first place? And did his family ever attempt to have him transferred to a mental health facility during the time he was in prison?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

https://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/18571-barry-george-has-aspergers/

There's been very little research carried out in relation to understanding "Aggression and sexual offense in Asperger's syndrome" which is one reasons why I have doubts
https://search.proquest.com/openview/333e42d6d1df4c1ab0b160be5cb0d043/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=47717

.


Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 07:35:49 PM
No.  I am saying that The Prosecution Case was Flawed.

The Prosecuting QC said....  What he said doesn't make Barry George a Murderer.

What was the prosecution QC referring to? You've lost me

"Jonathan Laidlaw QC, prosecuting, said Dando's death had been the result of the actions of "a loner, a man acting alone with no rational motive to kill"

What makes a murderer Eleanor and are you suggesting someone with aspergers does not murder?

According to research - "Antisocial acts, including aggression and sexual offense, are not considered to be common in this disorder." Yet George had a spent conviction for a sexual offense?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 31, 2018, 08:01:48 PM
I wasn't aware BG had been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. 

I don't know much about the case to have any views either way but I know Prof Simon Baron-Cohen is a world leading expert on Aspergers.  The following vid is brill IMO and can maybe account for many acts of 'evil':

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=zeros+degree+of+empathy+YouTube&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 09:07:07 PM
"I think anyone who has been vilified like me is going to feel very stressed at times and I do. I am not going to say I am angry because I am not angry, certainly not at society. I would use the word disgusted. I am disgusted at how I am treated by certain elements of the media. I am disgusted at how they can do that to someone. I would not give them the satisfaction of my anger, but sometimes I get so wound up – how am I supposed to deal with it?"

"Upon his release he lived in a flat in Hackney which cost him £310 a week in rent. He paid for it not, as was suggested, by claiming benefits, but by using the proceeds he was paid to do a tabloid interview on the day of his release (the one which described him as "bug-eyed" and an "oddball").

"At times Mr George is incredibly articulate. But due to his Asperger's he sometimes struggles for words and will gesticulate wildly as if searching for them in the air. His reading of body language is poor and it is a struggle to move him from one topic to the next. Often his mind wanders and he goes off on a tangent. When the topic is the media he is hard to stop. Mr George has fought their allegations in the courts, winning libel actions against two Fleet Street titles. But the stories hurt him.

"They are trivial things when it is just one thing, but it is 101. It is things like they said I wear a Superman T-shirt. I have never owned a Superman T-shirt. They said I was buying books about Jill Dando when I was buying a book about civil law."

Jill Dando. During three hours together the name is scarcely mentioned. But like it or not, Mr George will forever be known as the man once convicted of murdering the Crimewatch presenter. He knows this, but says: "I cannot change history and I am not going to begin to try."

He also knows that some people still think he did kill her.

"I cannot do anything about that," he says. "And I am not going to try because in a court of law my innocence has been proven on all the evidence. It frustrates me, because I feel like I am being asked to prove my innocence over and over. But I cannot control what people think."https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/barry-george-i-am-not-angry-certainly-not-at-society-but-i-would-use-the-word-disgustedrsquo-1987499.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2018, 09:21:21 PM

Why do you dislike him so much?  Do you actually believe that he did murder Jill Dando?  Not that you shouldn't if you so wish.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 09:35:59 PM
The whole thing was a disgrace frankly that someone like George could ever be seen as being capable of such a crime without leaving a forensic footprint behind.  SY has lost much credibility over this case and still haven't provided George with an appropriate apology.

According to this news article from 2015 the evidence from the crime scene has never been seen by the public?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/key-jill-dando-murder-evidence-5419910
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 09:59:38 PM
Why do you dislike him so much?  Do you actually believe that he did murder Jill Dando?  Not that you shouldn't if you so wish.

I've already answered your questions.

My doubts remain, mainly due to how it (the case) has been presented in the media and by whom it has been presented.

"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

What is Bates referring to re the Daily Mirror reporting? And from what newspapers did George win damages?



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 10:35:02 PM
Why do you dislike him so much?  Do you actually believe that he did murder Jill Dando?  Not that you shouldn't if you so wish.

This article suggests the prosecution were "intellectually confused in their arguments relating to George's character" but that could equally be said of the defence (and of the author of the article).

"The prosecution were, to put it politely, intellectually confused in their arguments relating to George’s character. On the one hand they wished us to believe that George was capable of having coldly planned and executed a most efficient killing without leaving any forensic or other direct evidence to convict him. On the other hand, when it suited them, they portrayed George as a reckless near simpleton.
George’s character as depicted at the trial suggested a seriously inept and disorganised man. As a boy he was a problematic enough a personality to have been sent to a special boarding school. He has never been able to hold down a job and has spent almost all of the time since he left school unemployed. He suffers from epilepsy to the extent that he was allowed an attendant in the dock at the Dando trial to assist him in the event of a fit. He was said to be of low intelligence. He lived in a terrible physical mess — his flat was covered with a deep “soil” of paper and other oddments such as a large number of rolls of undeveloped f ilms.
of particular importance to the trial was the fact that George is a serial fantasist of Walter Mitty proportions. This had two effects. First, evidence that he had lied to the police became essentially worthless without other corroborating evidence, be- cause lying was second nature to George and, indeed, it is the type of behaviour which would have been reasonably expected from him in the circumstances of being arrested and questioned by the police. Second, much of the other evidence, such as his habit of following women, could be plausibly explained by his tendency to act out his fantasies.
George’s fantasy world was one in which he sought satisfac- tion, and doubtless attention, by pretending to be someone gla- morous or connected to someone glamorous or to have been in
glamorous or sensational circumstances. At various times dur- ing the twenty years prior to the murder he has claimed to be Steve Majors (a name derived from Lee Majors and the charac- ter, Steve Austin, he played in the TV series The Bionic Man), an SAS soldier by the name of Thomas Palmer (an SAS soldier involved in the Iranian Embassy siege), Paul Gadd (the pop star Gary Glitter’s real name) and Freddie Mercury’s cousin (for which he used the name Barry Bulsara) to mention just a few. He has at various times also claimed to be in possession of a rocket propelled grenade launcher and to be able to roller skate over four double decker buses.
George did not merely have fantasies he acted them out. When he was pretending to be Freddie Mercury’s cousin, Barry Bul- sara, he went to Mercury’s home after the singer’s death in a hired white limousine and left flowers outside the house. He then proceeded to sign autographs for a while, having per- suaded mourning fans that he was related to Mercury.
In 1983 he was arrested by police in Kensington Gardens near to the Princess of Wales’ home, crouched in the bushes, dressed in pseudo military gear and equipped with a knife and rope. The police arrested him but did not press charges, although they searched his flat. The Royal Protection Group (RPG) did however, list him as a potential threat to the Royal Family. An RPG member also suggested him to the team investigating the Rachel Nickell murder in 1992 as a possible suspect.
In 1985 George was living in a bed and breakfast hotel in Gloucester Road, West London. There he came to know a family by the name of Dobbins. After they moved to a flat in Fulham George called on them unexpectedly dressed in combat gear and a balaclava. Once in the hallway of the flat he pro- duced a handgun and fired a blank shot. He showed the Dob- bins’ son, David, the blank rounds in his pocket and then left.
A further example of his exhibitionistic and obsessive men- tality comes from his medical history. George attended no less than eighteen different surgeries in West London at various times and was known as a “heart sink” patient because he was constantly coming in with imagined ailments.
Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic person- ality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to aut- ism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.
Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases. A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A para- noid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspi- cion of the police. Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become ob- sessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent facti- tious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/legan/legan037.pdf

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 10:43:28 PM
"The police did not take George seriously as a suspect until nearly a year after the murder, despite some reports from the public early in the investigation which suggested that he might be worth investigating. The police explanation for the delay was the sheer volume of leads they had to follow up — these ran to several thousands. This could conceivably be the rea- son, but more probably by the time the police turned their at- tentions to George they were getting desperate because of their failure to charge anyone and feeling utterly thwarted by the sheer lack of hard evidence to follow up. This view is leant weight by the words of Assistant Commissioner Brian Moore who said at the conclusion of the trial:
It was a strange attack. It was not seen by anybody, the killer was not seen by anyone at the time and very little forensic evidence left behind. There could be no more difficult environment to investigate a case.
(Daily Telegraph 3/7/01)

Something very similar to the above was written about Suffolk police in relation to the murder of Joan Albert.

It was around 7 months before her murderer was apprehended.


"Detectives say the attack happened after 9pm on Saturday. They added that the inquiry is focusing on a "burglary that went wrong". Forensic science officers are examining the scene.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/murder-mystery-of-rich-widow-6298913.html

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/cctv-could-help-joan-murder-hunt-1-124390

https://justice4joanalbert.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/mrs-joan-albert/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 11:14:14 PM
I've already answered your questions.

My doubts remain, mainly due to how it (the case) has been presented in the media and by whom and when it has been presented.

"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

What is Bates referring to re the Daily Mirror reporting? And from what newspapers did George win damages?

This clip (above 2nd down) is originally from 5 live Breakfast on April 1 2015. The interviewer had to pick Michelle Bates up on her comment regarding withheld evidence. She then appears unsure of how to respond?

However, Bates refers to offender profiling material. I'm interested in learning more about this.

"His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 31, 2018, 11:21:19 PM
No.  I am saying that The Prosecution Case was Flawed.

The Prosecuting QC said....  What he said doesn't make Barry George a Murderer.

"As the Old Bailey hearing got underway, pyschologist Dr Susan Young took her seat in the dock alongside the convicted sex offender, where she will remain throughout the case.

Her role is to ensure her client is relaxed, attentive and stress-free during the proceedings.

For George, her "specialist techniques" - which include massaging his temples - are an invaluable aide to his powers of concentration in the courtroom.

But her services do not come cheaply to the taxpayer. Already, she has run up a bill of around £30,000 helping George "cope" with various court proceedings over the past six years.

She was at his side during his ten-week trial in 2001 when she sat in the well of the court monitoring whether George suffered any "petit mal" minor epileptic fits which meant he could not follow the case.
In his cell below Court Number One at the Old Bailey, Dr Young also conducted regular "relaxation exercises" - such as massaging his head.

The £500-a-day psychologist was also in close attention during his failed appeal attempt in 2002.

Yesterday, the pair were reunited when Dr Young, 50, was again allowed to sit next to George.

He passed several notes to his psychologist and they had numerous whispered exchanges behind the wrought-iron bars.
George's QC William Clegg explained Dr Young's presence to the court by saying his client had learning difficulties and "intellectual functioning in the borderline range".

"He has epilepsy and severe cognitive impairment. He has a tendency to fantasise and is on record as claiming to be related to Freddie Mercury and having served in the SAS. Neither was right. At his trial Dr Young sat with him and, with the court's leave, does again today."

Jail sources say George is "clearly delighted" to have Dr Young in such close proximity.
"He certainly perks up when she is around," said one.
Their friendship goes back to 2001 when Dr Young told the Old Bailey that giving evidence would be a devastating experience for George and that he should not be discriminated against for staying silent.
She said she worried whenever she saw him drifting off and her expert opinion was accepted by the court and supported by two eminent psychiatrists.
Her notes for one "fit" as George sat in the dock read: 'He looks spaced out, unfocused. He looks out of it.'
But psychologist Dr Caroline Logan, called by the prosecution, said she believed George feigned illness in the hope of influencing the case.

Prosecutor Orlando Pownall told the Old Bailey that on one occasion George brought up a blue liquid claiming it was bile, only for it to turn out to be washing-up liquid.

Last week Dr Young appeared in a controversial BBC Panorama programme on the case, in which she claimed George was not capable of carrying out Miss Dando's murder.

"He wouldn't have had the wherewithal that he needed to have to plan and execute this crime," she added.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491772/Blonde-psychologist-paid-500-day-Dando-killer-head-massages-cell.html#ixzz5BMtunFT8
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 01, 2018, 01:25:58 AM
"As the Old Bailey hearing got underway, pyschologist Dr Susan Young took her seat in the dock alongside the convicted sex offender, where she will remain throughout the case.

Her role is to ensure her client is relaxed, attentive and stress-free during the proceedings.

For George, her "specialist techniques" - which include massaging his temples - are an invaluable aide to his powers of concentration in the courtroom.

But her services do not come cheaply to the taxpayer. Already, she has run up a bill of around £30,000 helping George "cope" with various court proceedings over the past six years.

She was at his side during his ten-week trial in 2001 when she sat in the well of the court monitoring whether George suffered any "petit mal" minor epileptic fits which meant he could not follow the case.
In his cell below Court Number One at the Old Bailey, Dr Young also conducted regular "relaxation exercises" - such as massaging his head.

The £500-a-day psychologist was also in close attention during his failed appeal attempt in 2002.

Yesterday, the pair were reunited when Dr Young, 50, was again allowed to sit next to George.

He passed several notes to his psychologist and they had numerous whispered exchanges behind the wrought-iron bars.
George's QC William Clegg explained Dr Young's presence to the court by saying his client had learning difficulties and "intellectual functioning in the borderline range".

"He has epilepsy and severe cognitive impairment. He has a tendency to fantasise and is on record as claiming to be related to Freddie Mercury and having served in the SAS. Neither was right. At his trial Dr Young sat with him and, with the court's leave, does again today."

Jail sources say George is "clearly delighted" to have Dr Young in such close proximity.
"He certainly perks up when she is around," said one.
Their friendship goes back to 2001 when Dr Young told the Old Bailey that giving evidence would be a devastating experience for George and that he should not be discriminated against for staying silent.
She said she worried whenever she saw him drifting off and her expert opinion was accepted by the court and supported by two eminent psychiatrists.
Her notes for one "fit" as George sat in the dock read: 'He looks spaced out, unfocused. He looks out of it.'
But psychologist Dr Caroline Logan, called by the prosecution, said she believed George feigned illness in the hope of influencing the case.

Prosecutor Orlando Pownall told the Old Bailey that on one occasion George brought up a blue liquid claiming it was bile, only for it to turn out to be washing-up liquid.

Last week Dr Young appeared in a controversial BBC Panorama programme on the case, in which she claimed George was not capable of carrying out Miss Dando's murder.

"He wouldn't have had the wherewithal that he needed to have to plan and execute this crime," she added.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491772/Blonde-psychologist-paid-500-day-Dando-killer-head-massages-cell.html#ixzz5BMtunFT8

There's a similar case here http://murderpedia.org/male.M/m/moore-bobby-james.htm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 01, 2018, 09:06:19 AM
Why do you dislike him so much?  Do you actually believe that he did murder Jill Dando?  Not that you shouldn't if you so wish.

It's not unheard of for men like George, with borderline intellectual functioning, to murder. This case, similar to Jeremy Bambers was "high profile" at the time Jill Dando was murdered - she presented BBC's crime watch programme and a media frenzy followed.

Who and what am I meant to believe? Who's story is more credible? The police or Barry George's supporters? Have we been manipulated? Far too much irony for my liking....

Did the police go after George after bowing down to public pressure? The police at the time said he fit their profile. George wasnt awarded compensation as he wasn't "innocent enough." Is this because of lack of understanding into George's psychology or because the police still suspect he was responsible?

Does this case all boil down to expert opinion relating to George's psychology? The police believed he feigned much. His supporters say he wasn't capable of murder. This was an organised killing?



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 01, 2018, 10:14:51 AM
Professor Fallon says: "Psychopathy itself is not recognised as a category in the psychiatric DSM—the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual—partly because the concept of personality disorders is controversial, as so many of the symptoms overlap, such as narcissism, antisocial behaviour and lack of empathy.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/5427024
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 01, 2018, 09:52:51 PM
As 'misfit' Barry George began his life as a free man today - having spent eight years in jail - a woman told of how he raped her 25 years ago.
Karen Gray was a 20-year-old university languages student, when she was attacked and raped by George in the stairwell of a block of flats in West London.
But the Old Bailey jury were not permitted to hear the details of his vile attack on Miss Gray as she reached home - as it may have prejudiced his trial.
George was a stranger who followed her in the street, told her he was in the RAF, tried to hold her hand and spoke a few German phrases to impress her.
She thought he was a harmless oddball, 'a sad case' and didn't feel threatened or frightened by him.
But when he followed her into the block of flats where her mother lived, he changed.
The Old Bailey jury heard that George was incapable of planning or carrying out a series of actions without panicking or triggering an epileptic fit.
Nine years after the shooting of TV presenter Jill Dando on her own doorstep, and seven years after he was convicted of the crime, the jury took less than two days to acquit him.
As he walked from court a free man, Miss Dando's family are now facing the probability that her murder will never be solved.
But what the jury were not permitted to hear was the details of his vile attack on Miss Gray as she reached home.
On the stairs of a block of flats, George overpowered her, smothered her screams with his hand over her nose and mouth and ripped down her jeans to rape her.
As he left, he said 'sorry' before making for the nearest underground station and disappearing. He was not caught for a year.
It is hard to equate this glimpse of George the determined sex attacker with the man portrayed in court and by his family as a victim.
Miss Gray knows what he is capable of. Now 46 and a mother of two, she says: 'It appeared to me that whatever his IQ, there was something there that permits him to be cunning and devious.
'He had lots of aliases and he told me he was Steve Majors and was clever enough to get himself involved in some Evel Knievel-style stunt.
'I believe there is more to him than is portrayed.'
It is 25 years since the attack, but Miss Gray has not forgotten the details. She was an undergraduate studying French and German when George asked her the time as she walked from Turnham Green Underground station to her mother's home in Chiswick.
'I was a bit of a punk then with auburn hair and had a red leather jacket on and jeans.
'I was not some innocent - I thought I was streetwise - but I didn't read him properly. He presented himself as a harmless character
'He walked beside me and said he was in the RAF and would I like to go to a party with him.
'I kept my answers monosyllabic so he was in no doubt I was not interested in him. But he kept chatting away and tried to hold my hand.
'When he heard I had recently lived in Germany, he said a phrase in German.'
What his victim did not know was that the apparently harmless man at her side had already been given a suspended two-year sentence for a previous sex attack.
Now, she says ruefully: 'I suppose I was far too polite and he wasn't taking the hint but I wasn't frightened.
'In my mind I thought I was nearly at my mum's front door and I thought he would just go away.'
Later, after the murder of Jill Dando, a handwritten note found in his chaotic and cluttered flat provided a clue to what happened next.
It read: 'I have difficulty handling rejection. I become angry ... it starts a chain of events which is beyond my control.'
And so, rejected by the girl in the red leather jacket, he waited until they were alone and attacked her.
She recalled: 'He changed when we walked up the stairs and he jumped on me from behind.
'He didn't have a knife or a gun but he forced me into a corner and put his hand over my mouth and nose so I couldn't breathe.
'He was very strong but it was all pretty pathetic. He pulled my jeans down and raped me but he couldn't finish the act.'
The attack was carried out in silence. When it was over, her attacker simply mumbled 'Sorry' before running off.
'I ran up to my mum's door and hammered on it for help,' his victim says.
'The police came pretty quickly and asked all the neighbours if they had seen anything but no one had. I went back to university and just got on with my life.'
A year later, George was caught after sexually assaulting another woman. He matched the description given by Miss Gray and a police officer remembered her attacker had used a German phrase.
He asked George if he spoke German and the suspect repeated exactly the same phrases.
When confronted, he broke down and confessed. He was initially charged with rape but because of a dispute over forensic evidence, the police reluctantly accepted his plea to attempted rape, partly to spare the victim from giving evidence.

At the Old Bailey in March 1983, George was jailed for two and half years and given an extra three months for breaching the previous suspended sentence.
Miss Gray, a senior civil servant who lives in a west London suburb, has refused to allow George, and his degrading attack, to ruin her life.
'I have only cried twice about it,' she says.
'Once, after it happened because of the shock, and the second time when I heard the same man had been arrested for murdering Jill Dando.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1040746/Barry-George-raped-mums-door-said-sorry.html#ixzz5BSOXcDE1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 01, 2018, 10:44:50 PM
I'm interested in learning more about this.

"His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.

"George was convicted of attempted rape in 1983 and sentenced to 33 months imprisonment after attacking a languages student called Karen Gray, who was 20 at the time.
She said after his original conviction: “He was below me and suddenly he jumped up and pounced on me from behind.
“He didn’t say anything, he just pinned me in the corner, pulling my arm up my back. I was screaming for my life but no one heard. He put his hand over my nose and mouth and I couldn’t breathe, I thought I was going to die. He was desperately trying to shut me up. He had gargantuan strength. I’m five foot eight, well-built and fit but I couldn’t fight him off.”
Two prisoners who shared cells with George in prison came forward during his retrial to allege he had confessed to them that he was guilty of Miss Dando’s murder, but their evidence was not put before the jury.
Commander Simon Foy, who heads the Metropolitan Police’s Homicide Command, said: “We are disappointed by today’s verdict, but especially disappointed for Jill’s family and friends, however we respect the decision of the court.
“The investigation into her murder was complex, thorough and professional with more than 2,500 statements taken and 3,700 exhibits recovered.
“It would not be appropriate to comment any further at this time except to say that we will be reflecting upon today’s verdict and considering how best to proceed.”
Hilary Bradfield, of the Crown Prosecution Service, said: “Mr George now has the right be regarded as an innocent man but that does not mean it was wrong to bring the case. The fact that the trial ran its full course confirms that although it has changed in detail, the circumstantial evidence which has been tested over and over again by the courts was judged fit to be put before a jury.”
The police investigation into Miss Dando’s murder and the two trials are estimated to have cost the public purse £10million.
Despite the clamour for a new investigation yesterday, detectives pointed out that they have already re-assessed the evidence in the case three times over the years without coming up with any new leads.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2487091/Barry-George-cleared-of-murdering-Jill-Dando.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 09:24:00 AM
It's not unheard of for men like George, with borderline intellectual functioning, to murder. This case, similar to Jeremy Bambers was "high profile" at the time Jill Dando was murdered - she presented BBC's crime watch programme and a media frenzy followed.

Who and what am I meant to believe? Who's story is more credible? The police or Barry George's supporters? Have we been manipulated? Far too much irony for my liking....

Did the police go after George after bowing down to public pressure? The police at the time said he fit their profile. George wasnt awarded compensation as he wasn't "innocent enough." Is this because of lack of understanding into George's psychology or because the police still suspect he was responsible?

Does this case all boil down to expert opinion relating to George's psychology? The police believed he feigned much. His supporters say he wasn't capable of murder. This was an organised killing?

Barry George's uncle Mike Burke said in his book, "The investigation into the disappearance of Madaleine McCann was possibly the only case to receive more attention than Dando's murder."

He goes on to say;

"I was quite annoyed when I read reports of Doctor Michael Kopelmans medical opinion of Barry.it seemed to me that Barry's inappropriate behaviour was being blamed on the overall family. I sent a protest to Jeremy Moore. In my opinion one is responsible for ones own actions. And it is a cop out to try and blame ones bad behaviour on the family.

Wasn't part of George's defence based on genetics?

A further example of his exhibitionistic and obsessive men- tality comes from his medical history. George attended no less than eighteen different surgeries in West London at various times and was known as a “heart sink” patient because he was constantly coming in with imagined ailments.
Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic person- ality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to aut- ism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.
Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases. A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A para- noid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspi- cion of the police. Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become ob- sessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent facti- tious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/legan/legan037.pdf

"Research suggests that genetics, abuse and other factors contribute to the development of obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic or other personality disorders.
In the past, some believed that people with personality disorders were just lazy or even evil. But new research has begun to explore such potential causes as genetics, parenting and peer influences:http://www.apa.org/topics/personality/disorders-causes.aspx
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 09:55:12 AM
Why bother with Trials?

It is no longer a Miscarriage of Justice because he has been Acquitted.

These are throw away comments Eleanor and don't address my posts.

Define your understanding of a miscarriage of justice.


Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 10:03:33 AM
My doubts remain, mainly due to how it (the case) has been presented in the media and by whom it has been presented.

"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

Seems I'm not alone.

George's uncle said (in his book 'Mike's Story),

"I met Scott Lomax on Friday and we had a chat and a quick drink. Michelle, Serg Sinclair and Tanya joined us. We had a friendly chat but Serg seemed to be a little sarcastic towards Scott's writings. I felt uncomfortable, embarrassed and Scott seemed a little annoyed.

To what "writings" of Scott Lomax was Serg Sinclair referring?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2018, 10:12:15 AM

In My Opinion your comments are totally disjointed and you frequently contradict yourself, leaving no basis for a reply as I don't understand what you are trying to say.

So far, insofar as I understand, The Media are not yet Judge and Jury.  Although I must say that they are taking a stab at it these days.

Barry George was Acquitted at his Second Trial, mainly because the evidence produced at his first Trial was deemed to be flawed.  He is to this day an Innocent man.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 10:24:31 AM
The whole thing was a disgrace frankly that someone like George could ever be seen as being capable of such a crime without leaving a forensic footprint behind.  SY has lost much credibility over this case and still haven't provided George with an appropriate apology.

According to Mike Burke, immediately following his nephews acquittal -

"Detectives were reported to be livid at the critism. A Scotland Yard source said it was expected that people connected with George, we're now coming out to attack the police."
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 10:35:52 AM
In My Opinion your comments are totally disjointed and you frequently contradict yourself, leaving no basis for a reply as I don't understand what you are trying to say.



Unless you are specific and point out when and where you see my disjointed comments and contradictions I can't help you.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2018, 10:41:19 AM
According to Mike Burke, immediately following his nephews acquittal -

"Detectives were reported to be livid at the critism. A Scotland Yard source said it was expected that people connected with George, we're now coming out to attack the police."

John is not wrong.  One minuscule piece of Gun Residue in his pocket?  What about the rest of his clothes and the rest of his jacket?

The rest of your comment is as usual, a bit beyond me.

Do you have a Cite for Scotland Yard?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2018, 10:43:59 AM
Unless you are specific and point out when and where you see my disjointed comments and contradictions I can't help you.

I don't think I am actually asking for your help.  And since there are now nearly four pages, mostly from you, I wouldn't know where to start.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 10:48:15 AM
So far, insofar as I understand, The Media are not yet Judge and Jury.  Although I must say that they are taking a stab at it these days.


Why do you suggest the media are taking a stab at it (playing judge and jury) these days? To whom and what do you refer?





Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2018, 10:56:04 AM
Why do you suggest the media are taking a stab at it (playing judge and jury) these days? To whom and what do you refer?

You mean that you don't know?  You quoted an unsubstantiated Scotland Yard "source" which obviously came from The Media.

Again I ask, can we have a Cite for this?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 11:19:43 AM
John is not wrong.  One minuscule piece of Gun Residue in his pocket?  What about the rest of his clothes and the rest of his jacket?

The rest of your comment is as usual, a bit beyond me.

Do you have a Cite for Scotland Yard?

The forensic evidence against George at trial was weak but he wasn't arrested immediately after the murder and I've no idea what happened to the clothes before the police seized them (I'm presuming these were the clothes he was wearing the day of the murder?) and he won't be the first person with "borderline intellectual functioning" to not have left forensic evidence behind at a crime scene.

Jill Dando's father has died and her then fiancé has re-married and moved on by all accounts. Although, please correct me if I'm wrong, he believed George murdered Ms Dando. I've seen nothing to suggest he's changed stance. Why would he believe this - does he know something we don't? And who is fighting for justice for Jill Dando?

Does it not strike you as suspicious that George has been denied compensation and the courts have said what they have?
"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

Scotland Yard are no doubt inundated with investigative work, therefore it's unlikely they have much time to spend on cold cases like this. Apparently London's current murder rate is higher than New York and what with the recent terrorist threats and spending cuts to policing I imagine re opening the Jill Dando case isn't a priority.

Mike Burke claims to have fought for justice for Barry (jfb) alongside Michelle, George's sister, but claims he was dumped once George was acquitted.

It's not me who has made these claims re Scotland Yard, it Barry George's nephew. Shouldn't it be he who provides the cite?



Forensics aside, couldn't Barry George be described as "mentally unbalanced?" There's no denying he's stalked women nor is there any getting away from his previous convictions. I'm unaware if he has attempted to have these convictions over turned based on his current diagnosis?

Hasn't it been found that Barry George blanks out at times?

"Mr George’s supporters, including his sister Michelle Diskin, who has campaigned tirelessly for his release, repeated their claims that the man who was described by his own defence barrister as “the local nutter” should never have been charged in the first place.
Mr George, 48, had first come to the attention of police just days after the murder, when a witness rang the incident room to say they had seen him near Miss Dando’s house in Fulham on the morning in question.
He was immediately ruled out as a suspect, because police were certain the killer was a professional hitman hired by a jealous former boyfriend or gangster with a grudge against Crimewatch.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2484898/Jill-Dando-murder-Only-a-matter-of-time-until-Barry-George-was-cleared.html

Do you agree with George's sisters claims that her brother should never have been arrested in the first place?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
He is to this day an Innocent man.


George's statements following the over turning of his conviction concern me.

You say he's innocent, that's fine. But something doesn't sit right with me.


"But in a joint interview with Sky News and the News of the World, George insisted that at the time Dando was murdered, he was following another woman after leaving a disability centre in Fulham.

Dando was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, west London, at around 11.30am on April 26 1999.

Between 10.30am and 12.33pm on the day of the shooting he was either at the centre or walking beside the woman, George said.

"I walked with her for a bit and from her perspective, maybe it was unwanted attention. But she didn't make that clear," he said.

"It didn't seem like she was telling me to go away. If she'd told me to leave I'd have done so straight away.

"That was at 12.33pm. I know because just a minute before I'd made a call from my mobile to check how much credit I had left."

During three weeks of surveillance before his arrest George was seen to approach 38 women and try to make conversation with them.

He said of his history of stalking: "I know I have done wrong in the past and if I could go back in time and change that I would."
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on April 02, 2018, 12:45:06 PM

None of this makes Barry George a Murderer.  I also happen to believe that Jeremy Bamber could be innocent, although he has been convicted.

However, I generally don't have time for other Forums because I am occupied largely on The McCann Case, who I also believe to be innocent.

But this Board requires Cites from Posters and an acknowledgement that without proof everything is in the opinion of the Poster.  This also applies to you.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 04:05:48 PM
None of this makes Barry George a Murderer.  I also happen to believe that Jeremy Bamber could be innocent, although he has been convicted.

However, I generally don't have time for other Forums because I am occupied largely on The McCann Case, who I also believe to be innocent.

But this Board requires Cites from Posters and an acknowledgement that without proof everything is in the opinion of the Poster.  This also applies to you.

I've no idea what you are talking about? Who's innocent? I don't follow the McCann board.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2018, 09:59:05 PM
In My Opinion your comments are totally disjointed and you frequently contradict yourself, leaving no basis for a reply as I don't understand what you are trying to say.

So far, insofar as I understand, The Media are not yet Judge and Jury.  Although I must say that they are taking a stab at it these days.

Barry George was Acquitted at his Second Trial, mainly because the evidence produced at his first Trial was deemed to be flawed.  He is to this day an Innocent man.


You may want to consider John Warboys and his victims  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/victims-sexual-violence-john-worboys when you make the claims you do with regards public opinion and the media.

Barry George by passed the parole board once his conviction was overturned ( or so he thought) but he remained on MAPPA - and remains so to this day - unless someone knows otherwise please feel free to correct me.

I reiterate - Barry George's sister may make excuses for her brothers behaviour and the courts may have found him innocent for the murder of Jill Dando but he still poses a risk to the public

Multi Agency Public Protection Arrangements or MAPPA is the process through which the police, probation and prison services work together with other agencies to assess and manage violent and sexual offenders in order to protect the public from harm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 09:07:39 AM
"Your Lordships, I am not sure of the propriety of writing to you, but you cannot have been blind to the barrage of publicity claiming Barry George is innocent.

Some of the coverage has been openly one-sided, though some - like last week's Panorama which took up George's case - has been even more disturbing.

You, as senior judges, are supposed to be above all this, unimpressed by such non-judicial murmurings.

But you are only human and given the febrile atmosphere surrounding this case it would be remarkable if you had not been influenced in some way.

So allow me to set out something by way of balance. Let me start by saying that while there can never be certainties in cases like this, I remain confident that Barry George killed Jill Dando.

That said, on the basis of the evidence, as it was presented at his original trial, I confess I was surprised that the jury found him guilty.

In particular, I was always unimpressed by a piece of evidence that lies at the heart of his latest appeal: a microscopic fragment of firearm discharge residue that was found in his coat pocket.

Barry George's supporters now claim that this tiny speck underpinned the entire prosecution case, though in fact he had already been charged with Jill's murder before tests on the particle had even been completed.

At George's trial, the prosecution argued that this residue matched samples found on Jill's hair and clothing - as well as the cartridge found at the scene.

The defence had ample opportunity to challenge that evidence. Yet now they say there are "new" grounds to question its significance.

So far as I am concerned, nothing has changed; I am as unconvinced about the particle now as I was then.

Even so, if you, my Lords, agree that this piece of evidence was such a crucial that it alone swung the jury, then it follows that George's conviction was unsafe.

But should you uphold his appeal - and I suspect you may well do so - it does not follow that Barry George is innocent, any more than that everyone who is convicted by the courts is definitely guilty.

The police and prosecution lawyers cannot speak out in public in advance of the appeal.

However, before reaching your judgment I urge you to consider clues that have had much less media prominence than the case for the defence, so that if you deem the original verdict unsafe, at least you'll consider a retrial rather than outright acquittal.

Then at least we will have another chance to review all the evidence, some of which was not admissible at the original trial.

But for the time being, let's stick to what we know already.

Despite all the speculation that Jill Dando must have been killed by a professional hitman, the practical evidence is that her murder was very amateur indeed.

I do not say this with the benefit of hindsight - it was obvious from the start.

Jill was shot outside her home in Gowan Avenue in Fulham, an address well-known to locals but which she went to irregularly because she lived with her fiance.

She had no special plans to visit her home that day and an extensive trawl of West London's CCTV cameras shows she wasn't followed.

So her killer either acted impulsively, or lay in wait - neither course suggestive of sophistication.

According to a neighbour who picked out Barry George at an identity parade, he had been hanging about some hours before the shooting.

In any case, whoever killed Jill had prepared no means of escape.

There was no getaway vehicle, and Gowan Avenue has few side streets, so the killer took a big risk in walking away where he would be visible for some time. (Her fiance's address, on the other hand, was much better shielded for any potential ambush.) This is hardly the signature of a well-planned crime.

Nor did the method of attack show any level of skill. The gun was not a proper firearm (it had been converted from a replica), there was no silencer, the bullet was home-made, and the killer held the muzzle against Jill's head risking forensic evidence transferring on to it - none of which is the hallmark of a professional assassin.

Furthermore, Jill's key was in the lock, and anyone with any sense would have pushed her inside and shot her there to muffle the sound and hide the body.

The killer was really not very proficient.

This is all a bit removed from the conspiracy theories that swirled around and distracted the investigation, including a laughable story that the murder was connected to Serb extremists who were unhappy with one of Jill's charity appeals.

(I know how the rumour originated. It was based on a mild letter of complaint from a viewer, which got more and more exaggerated in the retelling.)

As for the killing being a reprisal for Jill's role on Crimewatch, this would have been as unique as it was improbable.

Judges who sentence criminals, barristers who prosecute them, police who investigate them and prison officers who incarcerate them have rarely been threatened by those they have jailed.

And besides, if anyone was daft enough to go for a Crimewatch presenter they would more likely have gone for me, as I had been with the programme for far longer.

But Jill was glamorous. As I pointed out to the police from the beginning, when you look for a motive you usually look to people who know the victim. And through the medium of television, everyone knew Jill - she was in their homes routinely.

It was clear to me, as it was to the forensic psychologist called in by the detectives, that given the celebrity status of the victim, and given the shambolic nature of the killing, the murderer was likely to be one of those men who have a sexual fixation on a public figure but "who separate their internal world from external reality to such an extent that they need no direct physical contact at all with their target, and - because of their narcissism and absolute belief that their fantasies are real - may not need their victim to see them even as they pull the trigger".

(That was what I wrote to detectives privately early in the investigation.)

In short, the killer was likely to be someone with a personality disorder - someone much like Barry George.

It has been suggested that the police were fixated on Mr George from the start, at the expense of any other line of inquiry, but alas the opposite is true.

It was a year before he came into the frame, and the way he did so is instructive and shows why, on balance, I believe him to be guilty.

Soon after the shooting, the police received calls from two independent sources pointing to Barry George as a suspect.

In both cases he had visited places near Jill's home soon after the killing, and in both cases he had gone back to try to persuade the witnesses that he had been there at a different time and in different clothes.

These witnesses were so alarmed that they rang police repeatedly, and were deeply frustrated that their calls went unheeded.

It was not until a review of the inquiry, 11 months later, that a detective became excited by these leads.

That delay may seem shameful, but you must remember there had been literally tens of thousands of callers to the inquiry.

One of the penalties of headline crimes is that they attract more quantity than quality of information - and most media and public pressure on the investigators had been to discover a criminal plot.

It was only when all the conspiracy theories proved bankrupt that the "lone weirdo" option began to take centre stage.

Some commentators have alleged that, in desperation, the cops just picked on Barry George as "a local nutter".

As we have seen, that is not true; ideally, they would have picked on him the day after the murder.

Besides, even when George did become a suspect, the senior investigating officer remained unconvinced - there seemed to be no hard evidence against him.

But slowly a pattern of apparent coincidences emerged which, for me, is quite convincing.

This was not just a man with the sort of personality disorder one might associate with such a crime, but one who lived locally and had been near the scene before and just after the crime took place.

Here was a man who took photos of female presenters as they appeared on his TV (how many other people do that?).

Here was a man with a history of violence against women. Here was a man who carried knives and had a fixation about guns. Here was a man who lied about his whereabouts on the day.

And, contrary to defence claims that he was mentally incapable of organising anything like a shooting, here was a man who lived out his fantasies daily, following women in the street (sometimes, as with Jill, into their front gardens), getting into the grounds of Kensington Palace wearing a balaclava and armed with rope and a knife when Princess Diana was alive (and didn't she remind you a little of Jill?), and living the life of stunt man.

On one memorable occasion he starred in a daredevil feat shown on local TV in which he roller-skated down a ramp and leaped across a row of buses.

It is true that his mental condition has been deteriorating, and it may well be that he is now incapable of acting as coherently as he once did.

I wish he could be transferred to secure accommodation where he can be cared for, rather than remain in prison. But the evidence of his previous capacity and guile is scattered through his history.

So what about the theory that a fantasist like Barry George might deliberately have put himself into the frame to make himself the centre of attention?

This might explain his attempts to give himself false alibis.

But such calculated behaviour is at odds with everything the defence claims about his mental incompetence.

And in any case, he seems not to have wanted to be the centre of attention.

It is conceivable that he might have set about trying to construct his alibis out of misguided fear, though in successive police interviews he never said he was worried about being picked on for the murder.

Nor did he protest that in the past he had been routinely harassed by the police, as later claimed by the defence.

In fact, he had been spoken to by officers a couple of times over perhaps a decade - not unusual in that part of London, especially for a young man who often behaved strangely.

The first occasion was after a disturbance in a McDonald's restaurant, the second was when he was tailing a woman.

And nor, as his supporters now claim, is there reason to believe he was fearful of being set up for Jill's murder because he had been a suspect for a previous notorious crime - the stabbing of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common.

Yes, it is true that he was one of many hundreds of people routinely interviewed in connection with the case, but though he had been convicted of assaulting a woman and later jailed for attempted rape, he was never accused or even vaguely suspected of the Nickell murder.

In any case, the fact that he can be put in the right place at the right time for Jill's murder is not particularly troubling; but the fact that he tried to confuse the key witnesses about his movements on the day is suspicious, to say the least.

There is much other evidence, too, against Barry George.

Each piece on its own is inconclusive, but not when added together.

It is a regrettable fact that as forensic science has advanced, juries have become more and more dependent on technical evidence and less willing to convict on the basis of indirect corroboration.

Indeed, the very phrase "circumstantial evidence" has become almost pejorative. But how many coincidences does it take before we accept that there is a meaningful pattern to them?

I submit to you, your Lordships, that the accumulation of evidence is compelling, and it is quite a list. I urge you to verify how the early conspiracy theories were demonstrably fatuous.

I ask you to consider how the insistence that Barry George was mentally incapable of such a crime is simply contrary to fact.

How his trail of false alibis and continuing pattern of lies appears manipulative rather than fantastical.

How his personality disorder is plainly not benign (as we know from previous violence and stalking).

How his obsession with guns and female TV presenters is curious. How his availability at the scene is proven, and so on.

Let me put it another way: If Barry George was not responsible for Jill Dando's murder, we would need to invent someone of the same build, same appearance, same behaviour, same infatuations, same mental instability and same location, as well as having to disregard his palpable mendacity.

Finally, let me say this. Jill hated miscarriages of justice. So do I.

And though I was her friend and colleague I have no animosity towards George. In fact, having once worked with people suffering from epilepsy and damaged personalities, I feel sorry for him.

Nor, as a TV presenter so closely associated with Crimewatch, do I relish the idea of imprisoning an innocent and vulnerable person when the consequence must be that a dangerous killer is free.

Yet, on balance, I think that the judicial system got the right man, even if the process was imperfect.
What really matters is that whoever killed Jill Dando should not be at large to do something terrible again.

I wish you well with your deliberations.
Nick Ross


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491452/Dando-murder-I-know-Barry-George-killed-friend-Jill.html#ixzz5Bazr8W52
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 10:31:36 AM
You try being locked up for eight years for a crime that you didn't commit, during which you had no recourse to earning anything.
Hardly Greed.

What did Barry George "earn" before he was incarcerated? What has he earned since his aquittel?



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 12:43:39 PM
Why do you dislike him so much?  Do you actually believe that he did murder Jill Dando?  Not that you shouldn't if you so wish.

In a nutshell - I don' think much of manipulative individuals who use underhanded tactics in a quite obvious attempt to muddy the waters Eleanor.

Are you familiar with the term "gas lighting?"

I've read many of Barry George's sisters projections in her so called fight to stand for justice but I no longer buy into it. It stopped the day Simon Hall confessed. The niggles I had with regards the personalities of some of those people I once associated with kept niggling away at me - bit like David Jessel said in his comment about "the confession."

I'm driven by truth and justice. I have no agenda. I've learned much since I was conned and I've had to get to the bottom of how and why I was conned.

I've also learned a lot about criminal law and the loopholes used by some in their attempts to give themselves an air of plausible deniability (which equates to a lack of accountability).
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 01:02:42 PM
John is not wrong.  One minuscule piece of Gun Residue in his pocket?  What about the rest of his clothes and the rest of his jacket?

The rest of your comment is as usual, a bit beyond me.

Do you have a Cite for Scotland Yard?

I'm hopeful John has kept an open mind and will re-evaluate the evidence when he has the time.

If you re read my posts I tend to include a link when I've quoted something said by another. If I've missed something that concerns you please draw it to my attention and I'll edit it.

And if there is something I've posted that you cannot understand please point it out and I'll do my best to explain it to you.

I imagine though, if you don't have a full comprehension of a case like this, it would be beyond anyone.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 02:32:49 PM
Barry George hasn't been awarded compensation because he isn't innocent enough.


"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 04:17:15 PM
I'm interested in learning the truth of this case. Who murdered Jill Dando.

And why isn't Barry George innocent enough?

What do the police know that we don't?

The guilty walk in the footsteps of the innocent

They and indeed their families will go to great lengths in order to keep up appearances - I speak from experience you understand!

Where were Barry George's family when he was living in London, apparantly stalking women on a regular basis, and why did his family and friends allow him to live in such a mess? What's the back story?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 04:36:43 PM
Michelle Bates is the face of and presumably "brains" of the Barry George campaign?

Do you agree with this?

And do you agree the George case is fairly unique?

He never gave evidence during either of his trials - had his conviction overturned - yet all those who dealt with him whilst he was in prison appear concerned in relation to his risk to the public - hence he's now under MAPPA
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 04:49:10 PM


Have you read Mike Burke's book regarding his nephew?

I know there have been some strong opinions expressed on this case in the past here http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=953.msg28042#msg28042 but I think we"ve been misled. My opinion and no reflection on the forum of course.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 05:14:14 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

We can indeed agree to disagree but its only a matter of time before the truth eventually comes out
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Baz on April 03, 2018, 05:25:03 PM
We can indeed agree to disagree but its only a matter of time before the truth eventually comes out

Sadly there is no guarantee that the truth will ever come out no matter how much time passes.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 05:45:02 PM
'Barry has mentioned visiting the grave a few times,' his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair told me this week.
'It's something he definitely wants to do. He just feels there's a connection between them  -  they've been tragically brought together.'

George has also discussed his plans with his confidante, his sister, Michelle Diskin.

'Barry spent eight years in jail for a murder he didn't do,' Mr Singh Clair said. 'He's become entwined with her life and she has played a huge part in his. He wants to exorcise Jill's ghost, and say: "I don't want you to think I hold any hard feelings against you."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076331/Obsessed-visiting-Jill-Dandos-grave-acting-erratically-Barry-George-man-edge.html#ixzz5Bd1rDuQV
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2018, 05:55:04 PM
"Barry George finds himself a friend in Sion Jenkins


"The men are said to have become friends about six months ago, through Mr George's sister, Michelle Diskin. She had met Mr Jenkins at a seminar on miscarriages of justice.
It is understood that Mr Jenkins told her Mr George could stay with him if he needed an escape from media attention after his release."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1051168/Barry-George-friend-SIon-Jenkins.html#ixzz5Bd5x0R7m 




Discussion on Sion Jenkins can be found here

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=39.0
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: david1819 on April 08, 2018, 02:37:45 AM
I believe Jill Dando was killed by Serbians. Her murder came within weeks of the murder of Slavko Curuvija. Both were news reporters who criticised the Serbian regime.

"A widow of one of their alleged victims said Miss Dando's execution in April 1999 has all the hallmarks of her own husband's murder, which was two weeks earlier."

"The cartridge case had crimp marks on it of the type often found in Soviet Union and its satellite countries, according to Mr Mead."


Serbian police claim their is a link to Radomir Markovic, Milan Radonjic, Ratko Romic and Miroslav Kurak for Jill Dando's murders.

(https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/glJk9lLaHR0cDovL29jZG4uZXUvaW1hZ2VzL3B1bHNjbXMvTVRJN01EQV8vZWM5YjNiOTEzNWViYzQxMTdlOGZkOGI4NmM4ZmM4NzcuanBnkZMCzQLkAIGhMAE)



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2018, 07:56:25 AM
I believe Jill Dando was killed by Serbians. Her murder came within weeks of the murder of Slavko Curuvija. Both were news reporters who criticised the Serbian regime.

"A widow of one of their alleged victims said Miss Dando's execution in April 1999 has all the hallmarks of her own husband's murder, which was two weeks earlier."

"The cartridge case had crimp marks on it of the type often found in Soviet Union and its satellite countries, according to Mr Mead."


Serbian police claim their is a link to Radomir Markovic, Milan Radonjic, Ratko Romic and Miroslav Kurak for Jill Dando's murders.

(https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/glJk9lLaHR0cDovL29jZG4uZXUvaW1hZ2VzL3B1bHNjbXMvTVRJN01EQV8vZWM5YjNiOTEzNWViYzQxMTdlOGZkOGI4NmM4ZmM4NzcuanBnkZMCzQLkAIGhMAE)

Yes, and you also believe Jeremy Bamber is innocent David. I don't believe the proganda peddled by the media nor to I believe in individuals who self promote.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2018, 04:34:56 PM
Ms Diskin said she started working on her brother's case the minute she heard he had been taken into custody. She maintained throughout that her brother was "too gentle" to commit the murder, and she co-ordinated a determined campaign to prove his innocence https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barry-george-s-sister-tells-of-huge-strain-of-campaign-1.931572
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2018, 04:43:11 PM
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/barry-george-begins-life-sentence-bv-barry-georges-uncle-news-footage/684707048

Mr George’s uncle, Michael Bourke, expected the worst. I spoke to Michael immediately after the verdict. He said: “We thought it was going to be guilty and when we saw the jury’s faces, not one of them showing they were for him, we just…” He hunched his shoulders to illustrate how they flinched.
When the “not guilty” came, Michelle Diskin, Mr George’s sister, was the only one of the three to show any emotion – she slammed the bench that was actually right behind where I was sitting and shouted an exultant, but still surprised, “Yes”. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2491147/Analysis-Twists-and-turns-that-enabled-Barry-George-to-walk-free.html


Michael Bourke, George's uncle, is adamant that his nephew does not fit this profile. He is convinced that George possesses neither the physical nor mental ability to carry out such a crime, an opinion which is backed up by experts who have provided evidence to the CCRC investigation. From an early age, he had attended a special school and also suffered from epilepsy. At the time of his arrest, George was using the name Barry Bulsara, the real name of the late Queen frontman Freddie Mercury.
Mr Bourke, who lives in Ireland, said: "Barry is not stupid but he is not the brightest either. A lot of people survive being shot in the head but this was a killing carried out with such efficiency. Barry is the sort of person who would have panicked or tried to hide if he had committed the crime, but people at the advice centre [that he visited that day] said he arrived completely calm." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-report-disturbing-new-evidence-may-reveal-a-miscarriage-of-justice-in-dando-case-413556.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 10, 2018, 09:48:01 AM
April 2003
"After the murder of the television star, Jill Dando, it was claimed - falsely - that detectives went to him to ask whether her killing was the work of a hitman" https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/jul/28/ukcrime.stevenmorris

"I won't Stop until I clear my name https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/30/kevin-lane-robert-magill-charlie-wilson-interview-nick-hopkins

April 1999
"Speculation focussed immediately on a possible motive for the attack which stunned her friends, family and colleagues. Because of her fame and high profile, the possibility that she had been targeted by a stalker was seen as a potential motive. She had not expressed any fears for her personal safety to colleagues and friends could think of her no reason for the attack. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/apr/27/duncancampbell.rorycarroll

April 1999
"Many hitmen are never caught, although Kevin Lane, 26, known as "The Executioner", was jailed in 1996 for the murder of the millionaire businessman Robert Magill, who was shot while walking his dohttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/dando-murder-a-choice-of-contract-killers-is-now-available-from-just-pounds-1000-1090053.html

May 1999
"Although the BBC has received several death threats since Dando's murder from alleged Serb terror groups, police still believe the killer is most likely to be someone with a more direct connection to Jill, real or imagined
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/may/02/theobserver.uknews

April 2000
"They told the police that the killing was a "Mickey Mouse" affair, committed by an "amateur", and not the work of a professional hitman, said Detective Chief Inspector Hamish Campbell, the officer heading the murder hunt.
The 45-strong Dando squad now believe that the killer is most likely a man obsessed with the television presenter who had a knowledge of firearms, possibly through a gun club.
A profiler used by Scotland Yard believes the "skilled amateur" responsible is extremely unlikely to strike again.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/hitmen-tell-police-dando-killing-is-work-of-amateur-281601.html

May 2000
"Police confirmed that the information which led to the arrest was given to the police several weeks ago - before the BBC television Crimewatch programme appeal to mark the first anniversary of her death on April 26 - but could not be acted on immediately. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/may/26/sarahhall.nickhopkins

Feb 2001
"Following his conviction, Lane says he was the victim of a sustained smear campaign. In various newspapers, he was dubbed the Executioner, and linked to other unsolved murders. They included the assassinations of Charlie Wilson, the Great Train Robber targeted on the Costa del Sol in 1990, and Karen Reed, a 33-year-old geophysicist, who was shot on the doorstep of her home in Surrey in April 1994 by a man posing as a pizza delivery rider. One report claimed Lane had also worked to order for the Russian mafia.
When the TV presenter Jill Dando was shot on the doorstep of her home in Fulham in April 1999, Lane's name cropped up again. At the time, detectives wanted advice from expert hitmen. Newspapers said they turned to Lane to ask whether Dando's murderer was the work of a professional.
"Nobody from the Dando team came to see me," he says. "It was rubbish, like most of the stuff that has been in the papers. Being wrongly convicted of one was bad enough. Then, overnight, I became a multiple murderer."
Lane says there is another story - his story - and it has only been half told. "Just hear me out," he says. "Then make up your own mind." https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/14/kevin-lane

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2302523/Police-hope-finding-Jill-Dandos-killer.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 10, 2018, 11:07:31 AM
Ms Diskin said she started working on her brother's case the minute she heard he had been taken into custody. She maintained throughout that her brother was "too gentle" to commit the murder, and she co-ordinated a determined campaign to prove his innocence https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barry-george-s-sister-tells-of-huge-strain-of-campaign-1.931572

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=michael+boirke+barry+george+campaign+to+clear+name&source=bl&ots=Osv66NAZ9H&sig=u6QkUj9tNaTGF9YhqcBKAPXCuHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidxre7ua_aAhWNSsAKHUtQDA4Q6AEwBXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=michael%20boirke%20barry%20george%20campaign%20to%20clear%20name&f=false

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg454799#msg454799 "Barry George's Mike says he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: John on April 16, 2018, 02:16:43 AM
Contributors are again reminded to keep posts relative otherwise they will be removed during routine edit.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 11:50:43 AM
I'm interested in learning the truth of this case. Who murdered Jill Dando.

And why isn't Barry George innocent enough?

What do the police know that we don't?

The guilty walk in the footsteps of the innocent

They and indeed their families will go to great lengths in order to keep up appearances - I speak from experience you understand!

Where were Barry George's family when he was living in London, apparantly stalking women on a regular basis, and why did his family and friends allow him to live in such a mess? What's the back story?

"Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic personality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to autism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.

Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases.

A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A paranoid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspicion of the police.

Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become obsessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.
https://livinginamadhouse.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/barry-george-and-the-celebrity-effect/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 12:33:11 PM
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=michael+boirke+barry+george+campaign+to+clear+name&source=bl&ots=Osv66NAZ9H&sig=u6QkUj9tNaTGF9YhqcBKAPXCuHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidxre7ua_aAhWNSsAKHUtQDA4Q6AEwBXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=michael%20boirke%20barry%20george%20campaign%20to%20clear%20name&f=false

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg454799#msg454799 "Barry George's Mike says he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?

I ask again, why has Barry George's sister Michelle (nee Diskin) Bate's become Patron to mass murderer & child killer Jeremy Bamber's campaign? https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence/u/17935097

They are no similarities in either case

Michelle Bates is apparently up in arms by the fact her brother has not been compensated as he had been found to be not innocent enough.

"Michelle is backing a Campaign to amend the Criminal Justice Act, section 133, which affects many whose convictions have been overturned, or who have been found not guilty at retrial. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/section/133

Is she not concerned her brother could be re-tried in the future if new evidence were to come to light?

Her brothers over turned conviction is similar in parts to the Gary Dobson and David Norris convictions.

https://www.ft.com/content/45d351a2-3715-11e1-b741-00144feabdc0

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/712.html

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/blog/No-Coincidence

https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1351642

Michelle Bates has written a false and indeed misleading blog about her memories following the WHF murders.

On this basis, what has she said or written about her brother which is as equally false and indeed misleading?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 01:15:37 PM
I cannot get away from the fact that Michelle (nee Diskin) Bates apparent values appear to conflict with her behaviours, which in turn would be suggestive of moral duplicity?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 01:36:48 PM
"Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic personality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to autism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.

Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases.

A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A paranoid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspicion of the police.

Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become obsessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.
https://livinginamadhouse.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/barry-george-and-the-celebrity-effect/

A psychopathic person is prone to many more traits than lying and using aliases. The above statement is misleading.

Narcissism and psychopathy go hand in hand. A psychopath is also a narcissistic, though a narcissist is not necessarily a psychopath.

"Over the years, few large-scale prospective studies have targeted the causes of personality disorders (PDs). But recently, a new body of research has begun to explore the potential influences of several factors, from genetics and parenting to peer influences, and even the randomness of life events

Thus, although both genetics and environment contributed to the association between normal and abnormal personality, genetics appeared to play the greater role overall, Krueger says. "The predominant reason normal and abnormal personality are linked to each other is because they are linked to the same underlying genetic mechanisms," he explains.

With borderline PD, for example, ongoing research indicates that there may be a genetic base for the problems with impulsivity and aggression, says the University of California's Judd. But environmental influences are significant and can extend deep into childhood, even infancy, Judd adds.
"There is a pretty high prevalence of maltreatment by caregivers across all personality disorders," she notes. "One of the key problems appears to be neglect. Probably more of an emotional neglect--more of a lack of attention to a child's emotional needs."
http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar04/awry.aspx
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 03:24:46 PM
I ask again, why has Barry George's sister Michelle (nee Diskin) Bate's become Patron to mass murderer & child killer Jeremy Bamber's campaign? https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence/u/17935097

They are no similarities in either case

Michelle Bates is apparently up in arms by the fact her brother has not been compensated as he had been found to be not innocent enough.

"Michelle is backing a Campaign to amend the Criminal Justice Act, section 133, which affects many whose convictions have been overturned, or who have been found not guilty at retrial. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/section/133

Is she not concerned her brother could be re-tried in the future if new evidence were to come to light?

Her brothers over turned conviction is similar in parts to the Gary Dobson and David Norris convictions.

https://www.ft.com/content/45d351a2-3715-11e1-b741-00144feabdc0

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/712.html

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/blog/No-Coincidence

https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1351642

Michelle Bates has written a false and indeed misleading blog about her memories following the WHF murders.

On this basis, what has she said or written about her brother which is as equally false and indeed misleading?

Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

Published On: Tue, Aug 29th, 2017 *Legal | By David Wells
Are you a victim of a genuine miscarriage of justice?

https://insidetime.org/are-you-a-victim-of-a-genuine-miscarriage-of-justice/

"As an example, he has worked on trying to assist Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, and with his quest to obtain the justice it is strongly felt he deserves by getting compensation for having served a 9 year sentence for a crime he did not commit.

Re: Mark Williams Thomas

Cass says:
28th September 2017 at 2:42 pm
"I’m surprised David that as a qualified Solicitor and Barrister who has worked on some high profile cases that you haven’t done your homework on Mark Williams Thomas.
A bit of research will tell you that he was only a Detective for a year in Surrey then left, though I have heard he jumped before he was pushed.
He is not an expert in child protection, and a Masters in criminology, with no other post grad degree, doesn’t make him an expert in that field either.
His various CV’s about investigating or leading high profile cases are I would argue also untrue as Senior officers lead investigations.
Credit due for his dogged work in the Saville case, but he was invited on board by Merrion Jones after a lot of ground work was done. In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review.
As for ‘The Investigator’ the show revealed nothing that wasn’t already in the public domain and was edited to make MWT look good. It’s all in the Court of Appeal decision at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/1840.html
Anyway I don’t wish to harp on, but I often wonder if those who purport to be what they are not actually have a strong belief in justice for others…. or simply a desire to boost their own ego and line their own pockets.
Purporting to those who have suffered the loss of loved ones to be a seasoned and experienced investigator is not for me in the interests of justice. It is called giving false hope… as he did in the Investigator.
If David, as MWT said himself, you ‘dig around’, you’ll come to see he’s not all that he purports to be. In fact why not ask him face to face and see what he says. He knows what it’s like to be grilled after standing trial for Blackmail and being found not guilty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2957264.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2963918.stm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2018, 08:00:12 PM
Published On: Tue, Aug 29th, 2017 *Legal | By David Wells
Are you a victim of a genuine miscarriage of justice?

https://insidetime.org/are-you-a-victim-of-a-genuine-miscarriage-of-justice/

"As an example, he has worked on trying to assist Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, and with his quest to obtain the justice it is strongly felt he deserves by getting compensation for having served a 9 year sentence for a crime he did not commit.

Re: Mark Williams Thomas

Cass says:
28th September 2017 at 2:42 pm
"I’m surprised David that as a qualified Solicitor and Barrister who has worked on some high profile cases that you haven’t done your homework on Mark Williams Thomas.
A bit of research will tell you that he was only a Detective for a year in Surrey then left, though I have heard he jumped before he was pushed.
He is not an expert in child protection, and a Masters in criminology, with no other post grad degree, doesn’t make him an expert in that field either.
His various CV’s about investigating or leading high profile cases are I would argue also untrue as Senior officers lead investigations.
Credit due for his dogged work in the Saville case, but he was invited on board by Merrion Jones after a lot of ground work was done. In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review.
As for ‘The Investigator’ the show revealed nothing that wasn’t already in the public domain and was edited to make MWT look good. It’s all in the Court of Appeal decision at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/1840.html
Anyway I don’t wish to harp on, but I often wonder if those who purport to be what they are not actually have a strong belief in justice for others…. or simply a desire to boost their own ego and line their own pockets.
Purporting to those who have suffered the loss of loved ones to be a seasoned and experienced investigator is not for me in the interests of justice. It is called giving false hope… as he did in the Investigator.
If David, as MWT said himself, you ‘dig around’, you’ll come to see he’s not all that he purports to be. In fact why not ask him face to face and see what he says. He knows what it’s like to be grilled after standing trial for Blackmail and being found not guilty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2957264.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2963918.stm

Mark Williams-Thomas: says his Jimmy Savile documentary was ‘a huge risk in terms of reputation’.
"When we meet, prestigious industry awards are far from Williams-Thomas's mind. He is concerned about changes to relations between the police and media and the threat to serious investigative journalism.
As a police officer in Surrey, he would pass information to local reporters if he believed its disclosure was in the public interest. If those conversations happened today, Williams-Thomas would be facing arrest or suspension
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/feb/24/mark-williams-thomas-jimmy-savile


The Investigator: a British Crime Story, review: a true crime series riddled with X Factor-style clichés
"Produced by Simon Cowell’s Syco production company, The Investigator is a show built on solid ground – true crime from the US, from The Jinx to Making a Murderer to The People vs OJ Simpson, has provided some of the best television of the last five years https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2018/04/05/investigator-british-crime-story-review-true-crime-series-riddled/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-documentary-watch-5460623   
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 21, 2018, 07:14:45 PM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

On 9th Jan 2018, in response to the following https://innocent.org.uk/2018/01/09/luke-mitchell-launches-fresh-innocence-appeal/ on the Luke Mitchell case Michelle (Diskin) Bates states

"There never was any evidence to link Luke to this terrible killing, just supposition and wild fantasy."

She's of course entitled to her opinions but it just makes me doubt her brother's overturned conviction even more.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=583.0
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 02:48:49 PM
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=michael+boirke+barry+george+campaign+to+clear+name&source=bl&ots=Osv66NAZ9H&sig=u6QkUj9tNaTGF9YhqcBKAPXCuHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidxre7ua_aAhWNSsAKHUtQDA4Q6AEwBXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=michael%20boirke%20barry%20george%20campaign%20to%20clear%20name&f=false

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg454799#msg454799 "Barry George's uncle Mike says he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?

"The sister who stood by him. In the dark days after his conviction and when his first appeal was thrown out she renewed her efforts, urging supporters to wear a bright flower on their lapel. Her greatest ally was the fact that many people believed there was something not quite right about the case.
Ms Diskin, 52, has lived for 25 years in the village of Ballincollig, County Cork, where memories of British justice go further back even than the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four. A local administrator, she is married with three children. For the past eight years she has travelled the country to countless meetings.
Her website has been inundated with support. She has also helped with a book about the case
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/he-stalked-diana-and-had-400-women-on-film-6866238.html


Her website? According to Mike's book, it wasn't her website? https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=barry+george+mike+story&source=bl&ots=Osv77JEYgK&sig=wMLxHQUzDrrwdZhrvyhIfhiX8U8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDnsyJtc7aAhXWFsAKHYwwAr8Q6AEwBHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mike%20story&f=false

What about the uncle Mike who stood by him? What about the other supporters referred to in Mike's book?

Why has Michelle Bates put herself front and centre stage?

Why does she never refer to those people who ran Barry George's website?

Why does she never mention Michael Burke and the others who grafted for Barry George?

Why were they "dumped?"

Why at this point does it appear to have become all about Michelle Bates? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barry-george-s-sister-tells-of-huge-strain-of-campaign-1.931572

To me it feels reminiscent of Simon Hall's adoptive mother. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12195159
(Remember, she knew of the Zenith burglary, among other things. And, she WAS NOT involved in the campaign by this point, nor was she in contact with Hall's legal team - that I was aware of at the time)

The power of secrets https://therealmrshspoofblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/26/the-power-of-secrets/

With hindsight, regarding the Simon Hall campaign, once Hall confessed, it all fell into place as to why I had came up against so much abuse and harassment from the beginning.

Toxic people; and how they seethe and wage a devious smear campaign https://therealmrshspoofblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/26/toxic-people-and-how-they-seethe-and-wage-a-devious-smear-campaign/

Much of it stemmed back to Hall and those who had campaigned on his behalf before me; including his immediate family members. The Shirley McKie forum, the Wrongly Accused Person website, Facebook etc. I still have copies of some of the messages written by Hall's brother, for example, that most of the public were not aware of. He had apparently sent them from his place of work when Billy Middleton had first launched Hall's website/blog. The Facebook page, where I was attacked relentlessly by Trolls, again, many of whom I came to learn could again be linked back to those who had previously campaigned on Hall's behalf.

On top of this were all the others who were out to protect their own self interests.

The Zenith burglary had been known about by others, even though I Knew nothing about it until 5th November 2012. It was clearly important for all those who knew about the Zenith burglary to protect this secret, at all costs, from ever coming out.

Manipulation tactic https://therealmrshspoofblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/17/playing-the-blame-game-as-a-manipulation-tactic/

My point is, that in the Simon Hall case, it was tantamount to Simon Hall (and the Hall's) that my character was assinated early on, in order to protect their interests.

I get a strong sense all is not as it in seems in the Barry George case either.

Many people who knew Simon Hall directly didn't believe he was capable of murder. I most certainly didn't. I didn't, that is, until I came to learn of the Zenith burglary and slowly starting coming out of denial. From this point, Simon Hall, and others, tried their damnedest to break me down.

It's often said that Barry George wasn't capable of murdering Jill Dando. But how do any of us know that for a fact?

If it wasn't for the fact Simon Hall, prior to his confession, disclosed a large volume of information regarding his past, I may not have believed his crime of murder was sexually motivated, as opposed to the incorrect prosecution theory of it being a burglary gone wrong.

Barry George was capable of many things before Jill Dando was murdered, including pathologically lying, taking on the persona of others, stalking, harassment, the list goes on.

His sister states: "Her greatest ally was the fact that many people believed there was something not quite right about the case." "HER GREATEST ALLY". Hum.

There is something still not quite right with this case!

"Barry George is not the type of man any woman would feel comfortable with. A man who had been convicted of indecent assault and attempted rape. A serial stalker who habitually approached and harassed women.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/gail-walker/odd-yes-but-barry-george-is-no-killer-28442182.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/148232/Police-harass-Jill-Dando-case-man
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

Michael Burke, Barry George's uncle says in his book "Mikes story" about Michelle Bates.

"I turned on the TV to see GMTV at 6.00. Michelle and Don were being interviewed. Michelle was speaking and suddenly departed from the agreed script. She made serious allegations which for legal reasons I cannot repeat but I had to laugh at the male interviewer vainly tried to stop her on love TV. The allegation was not repeated or broadcast again but it was made nevertheless.

I'm unsure what the date of this interview was or what Michelle Bates said but according to the uncle, they were "serious allegations."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=barry+george+mike+story&source=bl&ots=Osv77JEYgK&sig=wMLxHQUzDrrwdZhrvyhIfhiX8U8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDnsyJtc7aAhXWFsAKHYwwAr8Q6AEwBHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mike%20story&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 07:03:54 PM
My brother, who was wrongly convicted of the murder of TV presenter, Jill Dando, has never been awarded any compensation for the years he spent incarcerated for this killing. His conviction was quashed in 2007, and he was then released in 2008, when the jury at his second trial unanimously found him not guilty. Since then, we have tried every avenue we could think of to get this government to correct the wrong, and to make recompense for all that he has lost.’
Michelle Bates

http://www.thejusticegap.com/2015/12/2015-a-year-in-the-justice-gap/

Maybe it's finally time for Michelle Bates to be transparent in order to convince those of us who believe him to not be innocent enough.

And maybe she would be open and honest enough to publicise the total sum of money her brother accrued since his conviction was over turned?

All I'm witnessing is greed; which has nothing to do with truth or justice.

Unless I'm mistaken, Barry George's uncle Michael Burke appears to refer to Michelle Bates as "Michelle Moneypenny."

So I'm not alone in my observations https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=barry+george+mike+story&source=bl&ots=Osv77JEYgK&sig=wMLxHQUzDrrwdZhrvyhIfhiX8U8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDnsyJtc7aAhXWFsAKHYwwAr8Q6AEwBHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mike%20story&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 07:09:55 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 07:53:16 PM
"Lawyers acting for Barry George will begin a fresh attempt this week to overturn his conviction for the murder of television presenter Jill Dando, who was gunned down on the doorstep of her Fulham home in April 1999.
George's sister, Michelle Diskin, and Hazel Keirle, legal officer for the Miscarriage of Justice Organisation, will present their case for a second appeal to the Criminal Cases Review Commission on Tuesday.
They will press for urgency because of fears that George's deteriorating mental state could affect his ability to remember key details.
Mrs Keirle said there was also a need to investigate allegations about the conduct of the jury. One female juror contacted George's defence team on several occasions after his conviction in July last year complaining that some, but not all, jury members had continued to debate the case in a hotel, despite the judge's ban.
The dossier includes the testimony of Fulham Baptist minister Rev John Hale, who, as The Mail on Sunday revealed last month, reported that he saw armed police officers searching George's flat in April 2000, four weeks before he was arrested, raising the disturbing possibility that the crucial evidence of a speck of gunshot discovered in George's coat pocket may have come from a police gun, not the missing murder weapon.
George was found guilty of murder but many have cast doubt on the conviction due to the largely circumstantial nature of the evidence. His first attempt to have the verdict overturned failed earlier this year.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-145789/Fresh-bid-free-Dando-murderer.html#ixzz5DQeMh19E
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2018, 08:12:36 PM
March 2002
THE award-winning newspaper editor who helped to secure the release of a man wrongly convicted of murder claimed yesterday that Barry George did not kill Jill Dando. Don Hale, the former editor of the Matlock Mercury, said underworld contacts have told him the TV presenter was killed by a hired overseas hitman. He believes Miss Dando was killed by someone unhappy with the BBC’s coverage of the Balkans conflict. Mr Hale won universal acclaim for his seven-year campaign for the release of Stephen Downing, who spent 27 years in prison for the murder of Wendy Sewell. After writing a book about the Downing campaign, he has received hundreds of letters from convicts protesting their innocence

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/dando-editor-speaks-1-605683
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 23, 2018, 08:33:51 PM
Michael Burke, Barry George's uncle says in his book "Mikes story" about Michelle Bates.

"I turned on the TV to see GMTV at 6.00. Michelle and Don were being interviewed. Michelle was speaking and suddenly departed from the agreed script. She made serious allegations which for legal reasons I cannot repeat but I had to laugh at the male interviewer vainly tried to stop her on love TV. The allegation was not repeated or broadcast again but it was made nevertheless.

I'm unsure what the date of this interview was or what Michelle Bates said but according to the uncle, they were "serious allegations."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=barry+george+mike+story&source=bl&ots=Osv77JEYgK&sig=wMLxHQUzDrrwdZhrvyhIfhiX8U8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDnsyJtc7aAhXWFsAKHYwwAr8Q6AEwBHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=barry%20george%20mike%20story&f=false

Michael Burke continues:
"I thought of the allegation Michelle has made and felt a little uneasy.

.. but it made me think that what Michelle had said was not very wise. She was safely at home in Cork, while my family had to live in London, and I would be travelling over and back alone for the foreseeable future.

Relations between some members of my family became strained as most felt that as Barry was convicted and appealed we should leave it as that. But I was convinced the conviction was unsafe.

I accepted that there was a possibility that Barry was the man, but the evidence used to convict him was unconvincing.

In late October I sent a strongly worded letter to MOJO complaining about their tactics. By now the website was taking shape, and I was involved in a struggle as to what direction it should take. The webmaster Mick Lynch wanted to portray Barry as innocent but I insisted we should question the safety of the conviction, rather than call it a Miscarriage of Justice. I wanted people to judge for themselves and in the end I won out.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 23, 2018, 09:05:50 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Michelle Bates: "They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres". 'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

Michael Burke: "I asked him why he was arrested at Kensington palace and he said that he had fallen asleep in the grounds as he made his way back from Chelsea barracks in 1983.

On June 26th the Daily Express did a two page spread on Scotts book. A couple of days later Michelle featured in an Irish evening paper, and appeared to dismiss the value of Scott's book, saying that a book would not get Barry out.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 23, 2018, 09:24:04 PM
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 23, 2018, 09:48:03 PM
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Yet more and more contradictions and inconsistencies
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on September 16, 2018, 06:02:16 PM
I ask again, why has Barry George's sister Michelle (nee Diskin) Bate's become Patron to mass murderer & child killer Jeremy Bamber's campaign? https://www.change.org/p/rt-hon-amber-rudd-mp-home-secretary-essex-police-release-all-documents-withheld-under-pii-to-jeremy-bamber-s-legal-defence/u/17935097

They are no similarities in either case

Michelle Bates is apparently up in arms by the fact her brother has not been compensated as he had been found to be not innocent enough.

"Michelle is backing a Campaign to amend the Criminal Justice Act, section 133, which affects many whose convictions have been overturned, or who have been found not guilty at retrial. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/section/133

Is she not concerned her brother could be re-tried in the future if new evidence were to come to light?

Her brothers over turned conviction is similar in parts to the Gary Dobson and David Norris convictions.

https://www.ft.com/content/45d351a2-3715-11e1-b741-00144feabdc0

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/712.html

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/blog/No-Coincidence

https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1351642

Michelle Bates has written a false and indeed misleading blog about her memories following the WHF murders.

On this basis, what has she said or written about her brother which is as equally false and indeed misleading?


Michelle Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
People hate to think there has been a wrongful conviction, it shakes their confidence, therefore they attack the people campaigning for justice, like journalist Chris Mullin, or in this case, Sandra Lean. https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1041002046386790401
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: John on September 28, 2018, 04:11:35 PM

Michelle Bates
@Michelle_Diskin
People hate to think there has been a wrongful conviction, it shakes their confidence, therefore they attack the people campaigning for justice, like journalist Chris Mullin, or in this case, Sandra Lean. https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1041002046386790401

Getting it wrong once was bad enough but Sandra Lean got it wrong twice that we definitely know about. She went to great lengths to campaign for killers Adrian Prout and Simon Hall yet both men eventually admitted their guilt. I for one would certainly question her judgement.

Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on September 29, 2018, 07:39:11 PM
Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.

Did Barry George sue those responsible for the following https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-to-examine-confession-from-killer-of-dando-9159153.html

And is the alleged confession why he failed the legal test for compensation or something else?

"a jury, properly directed, could have found him guilty.’
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on September 29, 2018, 09:53:44 PM
Can you point me to the trial transcripts and the Judgement handed down in the original trial please

I've found this http://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext but I want to go back to the beginning before the media muddied the waters..

Sandra Laville Crime Correspondant for the Guardian reported in June 2006 the following:

"Scientific evidence which helped convict Barry George of the murder of the BBC presenter Jill Dando six years ago has since been codified by the government's Forensic Science Service as "of no value", the Guardian understands.

The guidance on the evidence, a speck of firearms residue found deep in the pocket of George's coat, was circulated internally by the Forensic Science Service early last year in a paper on gunshot residue.

The paper was seized upon by lawyers at the Criminal Cases Review Commission who have spent five years examining various theories in the George case.

It is the scientists' opinion that single speck ballistics evidence is of no value which formed the basis of yesterday's decision by the review commission to refer the case to the court of appeal, where George's lawyers will argue the murder conviction must be quashed as unsafe.

The Crown Prosecution Service said yesterday it was examining the evidence. It is understood the CPS and the Metropolitan police will contest the appeal, which is likely to be heard this year
.

The headline read - "Six years on, evidence that helped convict TV presenter's murderer is deemed valueless

However emerging research in 2013 by N Fenton et al "When ‘neutral’ evidence still has probative value (with implications from the Barry George Case) suggests, among other things, that the single particle of gun shot residue was of significant probative value.

"Justice is best served when the evidence and hypotheses under con- sideration are accessible and clear to all parties and are unambiguously defined. In particular, this is the only way to assign correct meanings to the likelihoods provided by expert witnesses. Furthermore, because the probative value of a piece of evidence on source-level hypotheses may be very different from its probative value on offence-level hypotheses, the relationships between source-level and offence-level hypotheses must be made clear. We have demonstrated that an efficient way to achieve such clarity will require the construction of causal models through the aid of tools such as Bayesian networks. This approach helps to improve legal reasoning and by doing so demonstrates how hypotheses can be clarified, related and made precise enough for reliable quantification. Central to this approach is the distinction between hypotheses that are mutually exclusive and exhaustive and those that are not.
We contend that, in order to determine whether evidence has probative value – and therefore whether it should be excluded from proceedings or not – it should be evaluated against offence-level hypotheses. Any diversion from this key principle will carry the risk that evidence might be presented to the jury merely as a diversionary tactic, and persuade it to make decisions based on superfluous source- level hypotheses.
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement. The case document suffered from oversimpli- fication: what appeared as a superficially simple set of hypotheses were actually a set of ill-defined, but related, assumptions and vaguely defined hypotheses

Under these circumstances the ‘simple LR rule’ inadequately captured the probative value of the evidence. We have shown that evidence with a LR equal to the one in this case was not necessarily ‘neutral’.
The errors we highlight are taken from a judgement document, and although this may not always have accurately recorded what was said in court, the fact that it contains so much erroneous reasoning is cause for concern. Clearly, if a case judgement can be wrought with so many fail- ings, similar problems are likely to occur in courtroom judgments too. Additionally, it is a concern that the careful and rigorous presentations of statistical evidence made by conscientious expert witnesses can become distorted in a case judgement.

https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext?code=scijus-site

https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext#/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2007/2722.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on September 30, 2018, 01:23:40 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that contents of Michelle Bate's forthcoming book could lead to the re-arrest of her brother for JD's murder?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 01, 2018, 06:01:12 PM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

Det Ch Insp Bent added: "A murder investigation is never closed until the conviction of those involved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45707524



"Yesterday, his legal team and Scotland Yard officials argued over the handling of the case.
Supporters of Barry George became embroiled in a feud with police over fears her killer may never be caught and jailed.
William Clegg QC, who represented Mr George, accused the Metropolitan Police of abandoning objectivity and "closing their minds" to other suspects over the murder of the television presenter in London nine years ago.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2491773/Jill-Dando-murder-Feud-erupts-over-verdict.html



On 9th Jan 2018, in response to the following https://innocent.org.uk/2018/01/09/luke-mitchell-launches-fresh-innocence-appeal/ on the Luke Mitchell case Michelle (Diskin) Bates states

"There never was any evidence to link Luke to this terrible killing, just supposition and wild fantasy."

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=595.msg490903#msg490903
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 02, 2018, 01:17:03 PM
Sandra Laville Crime Correspondant for the Guardian reported in June 2006 the following:

"Scientific evidence which helped convict Barry George of the murder of the BBC presenter Jill Dando six years ago has since been codified by the government's Forensic Science Service as "of no value", the Guardian understands.

The guidance on the evidence, a speck of firearms residue found deep in the pocket of George's coat, was circulated internally by the Forensic Science Service early last year in a paper on gunshot residue.

The paper was seized upon by lawyers at the Criminal Cases Review Commission who have spent five years examining various theories in the George case.

It is the scientists' opinion that single speck ballistics evidence is of no value which formed the basis of yesterday's decision by the review commission to refer the case to the court of appeal, where George's lawyers will argue the murder conviction must be quashed as unsafe.

The Crown Prosecution Service said yesterday it was examining the evidence. It is understood the CPS and the Metropolitan police will contest the appeal, which is likely to be heard this year
.

The headline read - "Six years on, evidence that helped convict TV presenter's murderer is deemed valueless

However emerging research in 2013 by N Fenton et al "When ‘neutral’ evidence still has probative value (with implications from the Barry George Case) suggests, among other things, that the single particle of gun shot residue was of significant probative value.

"Justice is best served when the evidence and hypotheses under con- sideration are accessible and clear to all parties and are unambiguously defined. In particular, this is the only way to assign correct meanings to the likelihoods provided by expert witnesses. Furthermore, because the probative value of a piece of evidence on source-level hypotheses may be very different from its probative value on offence-level hypotheses, the relationships between source-level and offence-level hypotheses must be made clear. We have demonstrated that an efficient way to achieve such clarity will require the construction of causal models through the aid of tools such as Bayesian networks. This approach helps to improve legal reasoning and by doing so demonstrates how hypotheses can be clarified, related and made precise enough for reliable quantification. Central to this approach is the distinction between hypotheses that are mutually exclusive and exhaustive and those that are not.
We contend that, in order to determine whether evidence has probative value – and therefore whether it should be excluded from proceedings or not – it should be evaluated against offence-level hypotheses. Any diversion from this key principle will carry the risk that evidence might be presented to the jury merely as a diversionary tactic, and persuade it to make decisions based on superfluous source- level hypotheses.
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement. The case document suffered from oversimpli- fication: what appeared as a superficially simple set of hypotheses were actually a set of ill-defined, but related, assumptions and vaguely defined hypotheses

Under these circumstances the ‘simple LR rule’ inadequately captured the probative value of the evidence. We have shown that evidence with a LR equal to the one in this case was not necessarily ‘neutral’.
The errors we highlight are taken from a judgement document, and although this may not always have accurately recorded what was said in court, the fact that it contains so much erroneous reasoning is cause for concern. Clearly, if a case judgement can be wrought with so many fail- ings, similar problems are likely to occur in courtroom judgments too. Additionally, it is a concern that the careful and rigorous presentations of statistical evidence made by conscientious expert witnesses can become distorted in a case judgement.

https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext?code=scijus-site

https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext#/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/fulltext

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2007/2722.html

abstract
"The likelihood ratio (LR) is a probabilistic method that has been championed as a ‘simple rule’ for evaluating the probative value of forensic evidence in court. Intuitively, if the LR is greater than one then the evidence supports the prosecution hypothesis; if the LR is less than one it supports the defence hypothesis, and if the LR is equal to one then the evidence favours neither (and so is considered ‘neutral’—having no probative value). It can be shown by Bayes' theorem that this simple relationship only applies to pairs of hypotheses for which one is the negation of the other (i.e. to mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses) and is not applicable otherwise. We show how easy it can be – even for evidence experts – to use pairs of hypotheses that they assume are mutually exclusive and exhaustive but are not, and hence to arrive at erroneous conclusions about the value of evidence using the LR. Furthermore, even when mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses are used there are extreme restrictions as to what can be concluded about the probative value of evidence just from a LR. Most importantly, while the distinction between source-level hypotheses (such as defendant was/was not at the crime scene) and offence-level hypotheses (defendant is/is not guilty) is well known, it is not widely under- stood that a LR for evidence about the former generally has no bearing on the LR of the latter. We show for the first time (using Bayesian networks) the full impact of this problem, and conclude that it is only the LR of the offence level hypotheses that genuinely determines the probative value of the evidence. We investigate common scenarios in which evidence has a LR of one but still has significant probative value (i.e. is not neutral as is commonly assumed). As illustration we consider the ramifications of these points for the case of Barry George. The successful appeal against his conviction for the murder of Jill Dando was based primarily on the argument that the firearm discharge residue (FDR) evidence, assumed to support the prosecution hypothesis at the original trial, actually had a LR equal to one and hence was ‘neutral’. However, our review of the appeal transcript shows numerous examples of the problems with the use of hypotheses identified above. We show that if one were to follow the arguments recorded in the Appeal judgement verbatim, then contrary to the Appeal conclusion, the probative value of the FDR evidence may not have been neutral as was concluded
N Fenton et al "When ‘neutral’ evidence still has probative value (with implications from the Barry George Case) 
https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/pdf

Gunshot Residue Evidence – A Loose Canon?
by Angela Shaw - The Forensic Firearms Consultancy Ltd 2016
"The Criminal Case Review Commission (CCRC) in 2006 requested a review of the oral and written evidence in relation to the significance of the single particle and the way in which the case would have been reported today. While employed at the FSS I carried out this review in conjunction with a colleague. We concluded that the GSR evidence was inconclusive; it was no more likely that the particle had originated from the shooting of Ms Dando than it had come from another source. This was based on the information that the coat in which the particle had been found was not recovered until a year after the shooting. The CCRC referred the case to the Court of Appeal stating that the GSR particle that was given great significance by the Prosecution at the trial in 2001 was, in reality of no probative value
http://forensicfirearmsconsultancy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/GSR-Evidence-A-Loose-Canon.pdf


"That forensic remnant did not appear in the retrial, however, after the court of appeal ruled that the jury had been misled about the significance of the microscopic speck in his coat. The single thread attached to her coat was the only remaining forensic detail before the jury. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/01/jilldando.ukcrime2
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 02, 2018, 07:43:35 PM
Lynn Hales said: "George has now claimed to be a reformed man. If that is true he should tell the police who did this"
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/who-pulled-trigger-mum-daniel-8257691

Ex Manchester gangster Dwaine George pleads innocence over murder conviction
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b8ZQbYtGlwE

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/r-v-dwaine-george.pdf

Gunshot Residue and The Cardiff Innocence Project
"Dwayne, who had always protested his innocence, had the good fortune to write to and involve the Innocence Project at Cardiff University. Over successive years volunteering law students studied the case, and considered various avenues which might lead to the overturning of the conviction. The case of  Barry George [2007] EWCA Crim 2722 with its staunch criticisms of the standards which had applied to gun shot residue evidence, and its recognition of the important revision of those standards under the auspices of the FSS and in particular their lead scientist Angela Shaw, led to the students securing the services of a firearms expert to write a report on the impact of the Barry George decision on Dwayne George’s case. Detailed submissions to the CCRC were prepared by the many students, into all aspects of the case. Impressed by the work involved the CCRC themselves commissioned Angela Shaw to write a report on the GSR findings in the case, and the approach which had been adopted to them. As a result the Commission referred the case back to the Court of Appeal. http://doughty-street-chambers.newsweaver.com/Appeals/1cisha3cvxh?a=1&p=456432&t=174031

The Justice Gap
"Barry George’s conviction was quashed in the same year that Kevin Lane’s legal team made a third application to the CCRC. It was overturned followed a referral by the CCRC after a Panorama investigation identified concerns about a single speck on George’s coat which had convinced the jury that murdered Jill Dando. It was Cardiff Law School that identified the vulnerability of the gunshot residue evidence in the Dwaine George case as reported on the Justice Gap (here). The CCRC referred that case on the grounds there was ‘a real possibility’ the evidence of gunshot residue ‘does not now attract the value attributed to it at trial, and therefore does not support the identification evidence’. That conviction was quashed in 2014
Sir Brian Leveson, giving judgment in the Court of Appeal, pointed to new guidelines on firearms residue issued by the Forensic Science Service in 2006, two years after George’s conviction. If the new guidelines were followed ‘the number and type of particles of residue found on the coat were so small so as to be at or near the level at which they could not be considered to have evidential value’, according to the judgment. If the judge at the original trial had access to the new guidelines his directions to the jury ‘would have been couched in terms of much greater circumspection and caution,’ it added. https://www.thejusticegap.com/unmanageable-workloads-and-substandard-investigations-that-fail-to-put-right-miscarriages-of-justice/

National Training Conference on Investigating Miscarriages of Justice 2018
Organised by the School of Law at The University of Manchester, sponsored by Clyde & Co. and LexisNexis.
The 2018 National Training Conference for students in pro bono innocence projects, Miscarriages of Justice Review Centres, and independent case investigators will take place at the University of Manchester on Friday 16 and Saturday 17 February. The students and other investigators give their own time to help with cases of people who claim to be innocent of crimes of which they have been convicted, and who cannot afford to pay lawyers to review their cases. This Conference gives them unique opportunities to hear and meet some of the UK’s leading experts who can help them find out what might have gone wrong in police investigations and prosecutions, and what evidence can be found to support claims of innocence.
We are delighted to have a major contribution from the Criminal Cases Review Commission, an independent body which has the powers to obtain the fresh evidence needed to overturn wrongful convictions, and to refer cases to the Court of Appeal. The CCRC will explain in detail how it carries out its work and lead workshops for participants.
Experts giving presetations and leading discussions include:
Professor Allan Jamieson, Director of the Forensic Institute in Scotland. Allan is often called to give expert evidence about DNA in the UK and the USA. His evidence was of key importance in the Omagh bombing trial.
Andy Townsend of Footprint Investigations, leading experts on the analysis of phone call data which pinpoints where users are located.
Eric Allison, prisons correspondent of the Guardian who writes on miscarriage of justice cases.
Neil Smith, perhaps the UK’s foremost expert on using the internet to trace people and find information about them.
We will debate and explore the problem of joint enterprise prosecutions, in which innocent people are convicted just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, with:
Felicity Gerry QC, who contributed to rectifying the highly controversial law on joint criminal enterprise in the UK Supreme Court case of Jogee. She continues to work on joint enterprise cases and campaign for changes in the law on accessory liability. Felicity will speak via a video link from Australia;
Dwaine George who was himself wrongly convicted in a joint enterprise murder case. His conviction was overturned with the help of Cardiff Innocence Project. He now studies law at Manchester Metropolitan University.
The chaotic state of the disclosure system, responsible for many wrongful convictions because evidence gathered by the police which would help suspects is not passed on to them, will be explored through recent high profile cases, including those of Defence barrister Julia Smart from Furnival Chambers will be present to explain what happened when Liam Allan nearly went to prison for rape that he did not commit and was saved from this fate when undisclosed evidence was found.
Danny Kay, whose rape conviction was recently overturned thanks to the work of barrister Philip Rule who discovered important undisclosed material.
Philip Rule was called to the bar in 2001 and is a barrister at No 5 Chambers. Philip is renowned for his work in public law, civil liberties and human rights and was named Legal Aid Barrister of the year in 2017. He was recently involved in Danny Kay’s case discovering important evidence that overturned his conviction.
Mark Newby, solicitor advocate, possibly the UK's foremost criminal appeal lawyer and a long term active supporter of innocence projects MJRCs, will talk about his recent successes and the technicalities of putting together an appeal case. Andrew Green, is the Director of the Miscarriages of Justice Review Centre at the University of Sheffield. Andrew also runs INNOCENT and has a long history of working with the families and victims of Miscarriages of Justice.
Hannah Quirk, has worked at the University of Manchester since 2005. Her research interests in are mainly in criminal justice and criminal evidence. Hannah worked as Senior Researcher at the Legal Services Research Centre (the research unit of the Legal Services Commission), and as a Case Review Manager at the Criminal Cases Review Commission, investigating claims of wrongful conviction and sentence. Hannah also spent six months on a research sabbatical at the Innocence Project New Orleans. Finally, students, experts, leading lawyers and MPs will come together to discuss how to take forward the campaign to eradicate the scourge of miscarriage of justice.
Mark George QC, head of Garden Court North Chambers, who represented families at the Hillsborough, who will help students, as he has for many years, to understand cases make progress with them.
Brigid Baillie, is a defence advocate at Garden Court North Chambers, experienced in the most serious types of criminal cases and appeals including murder, serious sexual offences (such as paedophile rings and historical sex allegations), drug importation and terrorism. Brigid has a particular interest in vulnerable defendants and those with mental health conditions and is skilled at dealing sensitively with demanding clients in those circumstances.
Michael O’ Brien, spent eleven years in prison for a crime he didn't commit - the so-called Cardiff Newsagent Murder. Since having his conviction quashed in December 1999, Michael has worked tirelessly to ensure that those falsely convicted of crimes are exonerated.
Sarah McGill, headed the Cardiff Innocence Project student team responsible for the 2010 casework that led to Dwaine George’s conviction being quashed R v George 2014 EWCA Crim 2507. Sarah joined 15 Winkley Square Chambers in 2016 having been Called to the Bar as a transferring duty qualified Solicitor-Advocate. She routinely appears in serious cases covering the criminal and regulatory spectrum, including multi-handed prosecutions and those involving complicated expert evidence.
Danielle Manson is a barrister at 25 Bedford Row and was part of the Innocence Project at The University of Sheffield. She has been a clerk at Doughty St Chambers and worked at Justice.
Nazir Afsal was the Chief Crown Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for North West England from 2011 to 2015. He was the first Muslim to be appointed to such a position and was Britain's most senior Muslim lawyer within the CPS of Manchester. . Nazir was also the prosecutor who reopened the sex trafficking gang case in Rochdale which saw nine men jailed in 2012. He is Honorary Lecturer in law.
Dr Dennis Eady, works as Case Consultant to the Innocence Project at Cardiff University Law School and has been an active campaigner on miscarriage of justice issues for 20 years with South Wales against Wrongful Conviction (formerly South Wales Liberty). He has many years of experience on the topic of miscarriages of justice including the appeal process, particularly the CCRC and applications to them.
Professor Julie Price, heads the Cardiff Law School Pro Bono “Law in the Real World” schemes, including the Cardiff Law School Innocence Project, teaming law students with local criminal law practitioners to look at cases involving possible miscarriages of justice.
Henry Thompson, is the father of James Thompson. Battered, bloodied and concussed James ended up in prison. He is now serving a life sentence for murder, a crime he did not commit. He was a victim of assault. Students at the University of Manchester are now working with the family to get this case back to the Court of Appeal.
Finally students, experts, leading lawyers and MPs will come together to discuss how to take forward the campaign to eradicate the scourge of miscarriage of justice.
Book tickets for the conference via Eventbrite:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-training-conference-on-investigating-miscarriages-of-justice-2018-the-school-of-law-at-the-tickets-42046234419


"Eric Allison: Show me a miscarriage of justice and, nine times out of 10, I will show you the blueprint that caused it. There is a pattern, a template, in virtually all of these cases, made up of the following strands.....
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8523.msg456531#msg456531

Angela Shaw
Angela added: “We concluded that, given the coat from Barry George’s home was not recovered until a year after the shooting, the likelihood that the particle would remain in a pocket of the coat a year after the shooting would be very small.
“But the likelihood that the particle originated from another source was also very small – in other words, the GSR evidence was inconclusive

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/crime/scots-forensic-firearm-expert-who-2319573
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 09, 2018, 05:42:34 PM
Whilst Barry George's "odd" behaviour may not make him a murderer, doubts still remain.

Investigative journalist Mark Williams Thomas looked again at the the case and presented his findings which appeared to point away from George. But how do any of us know whether he had been influenced in any way by his bias?

Barry George is not innocent enough for compensation!

High Court judges ruled “There was indeed a case upon which a reasonable jury, properly directed, could have convicted the claimant of murder."

To what evidence were the judges referring?

Published On: Tue, Aug 29th, 2017 *Legal | By David Wells
Are you a victim of a genuine miscarriage of justice?

https://insidetime.org/are-you-a-victim-of-a-genuine-miscarriage-of-justice/

"As an example, he has worked on trying to assist Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, and with his quest to obtain the justice it is strongly felt he deserves by getting compensation for having served a 9 year sentence for a crime he did not commit.

Re: Mark Williams Thomas

Cass says:
28th September 2017 at 2:42 pm
"I’m surprised David that as a qualified Solicitor and Barrister who has worked on some high profile cases that you haven’t done your homework on Mark Williams Thomas.
A bit of research will tell you that he was only a Detective for a year in Surrey then left, though I have heard he jumped before he was pushed.
He is not an expert in child protection, and a Masters in criminology, with no other post grad degree, doesn’t make him an expert in that field either.
His various CV’s about investigating or leading high profile cases are I would argue also untrue as Senior officers lead investigations.
Credit due for his dogged work in the Saville case, but he was invited on board by Merrion Jones after a lot of ground work was done. In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review.
As for ‘The Investigator’ the show revealed nothing that wasn’t already in the public domain and was edited to make MWT look good. It’s all in the Court of Appeal decision at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/1840.html
Anyway I don’t wish to harp on, but I often wonder if those who purport to be what they are not actually have a strong belief in justice for others…. or simply a desire to boost their own ego and line their own pockets.
Purporting to those who have suffered the loss of loved ones to be a seasoned and experienced investigator is not for me in the interests of justice. It is called giving false hope… as he did in the Investigator.
If David, as MWT said himself, you ‘dig around’, you’ll come to see he’s not all that he purports to be. In fact why not ask him face to face and see what he says. He knows what it’s like to be grilled after standing trial for Blackmail and being found not guilty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2957264.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2963918.stm

Top barrister sparks social media row with telly-copper over Janner ‘trial of facts
"The hack that dug up the dirt on Jimmy Savile has described some of Pump Court man’s Twitter followers as “pro paedophile”
Commenter says: "Remember that it was Mr Williams-Thomas who visited Oscar Pistorius during his trial and used the media to declare him innocent!"
https://www.legalcheek.com/2015/06/top-barrister-sparks-social-media-row-with-telly-copper-over-janner-trial-of-facts/

Was the Pistorious interview designed to manipulate?
https://allafrica.com/view/resource/main/main/id/00100764.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 09, 2018, 07:07:08 PM
Was Mark Williams Thomas involvement in this case designed to manipulate?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 09, 2018, 07:45:05 PM
Was Mark Williams Thomas involvement in this case designed to manipulate?

"The collapse of Jonathan King’s trial raises questions about Surrey Police that go beyond disclosure failures"
http://barristerblogger.com/2018/08/08/the-collapse-of-jonathan-kings-trial-raises-questions-about-surrey-police-that-go-beyond-disclosure-failures/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mark_williams_thomas

http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/09/jonathan-king-and-mark-williams-thomas-some-media-notes/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 09, 2018, 08:44:52 PM
Michael Burke continues:
"I thought of the allegation Michelle has made and felt a little uneasy.

.. but it made me think that what Michelle had said was not very wise. She was safely at home in Cork, while my family had to live in London, and I would be travelling over and back alone for the foreseeable future.

Relations between some members of my family became strained as most felt that as Barry was convicted and appealed we should leave it as that. But I was convinced the conviction was unsafe.

I accepted that there was a possibility that Barry was the man, but the evidence used to convict him was unconvincing.

In late October I sent a strongly worded letter to MOJO complaining about their tactics
. By now the website was taking shape, and I was involved in a struggle as to what direction it should take. The webmaster Mick Lynch wanted to portray Barry as innocent but I insisted we should question the safety of the conviction, rather than call it a Miscarriage of Justice. I wanted people to judge for themselves and in the end I won out.

What "tactics?"
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 09, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
"The collapse of Jonathan King’s trial raises questions about Surrey Police that go beyond disclosure failures"
http://barristerblogger.com/2018/08/08/the-collapse-of-jonathan-kings-trial-raises-questions-about-surrey-police-that-go-beyond-disclosure-failures/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mark_williams_thomas

http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/09/jonathan-king-and-mark-williams-thomas-some-media-notes/

More re Mark Williams Thomas http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/11/mark-williams-thomas-issues-statement-after-judge-references-alleged-attempts-to-gain-financial-advantage-from-selling-details/

THE PAEDOFILE: MARK WILLIAMS-THOMAS – Is there more we should know about the Paedofinder General?
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/the-paedofile-mark-williams-thomas-is-there-more-we-should-know-about-the-paedofinder-general/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 10, 2018, 11:42:43 AM
I've already answered your questions.

My doubts remain, mainly due to how it (the case) has been presented in the media and by whom it has been presented.

"But the High Court ruled he did not qualify because jurors could still reasonably have convicted him despite new evidence that led to his acquittal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

What is Bates referring to re the Daily Mirror reporting? And from what newspapers did George win damages?
Reporter 'offered to sell names of victims'
"A FORMER police officer in the Jonathan King case who is now a TV documentary reporter offered to sell the names of the pop mogul’s victims, according to a judge.
Investigative reporter Mark Williams-Thomas, who made his name in a documentary exposing Jimmy Savile, has claimed to have solved a number of high-profile cases, including the murder of TV host Jill Dando.
But yesterday his professional reputation was called into question after Judge Deborah Taylor delivered a withering assessment of his previous work for Surrey Police on the King case. Before he left the force in October 2000 Mr Williams-Thomas was the detective who interviewed the first man to accuse King of sexual assault. He was subsequently accused – and acquitted – of blackmail in an unrelated case.
Yesterday the judge said: ‘ During the investigation into that offence a document was found on his computer offering for sale names and introductions to victims of Mr King.
‘There was also information that prior to Mr King’s arrest, Williams-Thomas said that he had been provided by a journalist with information about King. Williams-Thomas left taking his contemporaneous notebooks of his involvement with inquiries into Mr King with him.
‘No attempts had been made to obtain them, although it is the Crown’s position that he should not have taken them with him as they were the property of Surrey Police.’
The judge added that it had been suggested ‘there was deliberate concealment of his previous prosecution and of the documents indicating attempts to gain financial advantage from selling details of Mr King’s case’. Yesterday Mr Williams-Thomas denied ever knowing the victims’ identities, or offering them for sale.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180807/281732680305413
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 10, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

What is Bates referring to re the Daily Mirror reporting?

Oh, does she mean this?

"How police failed to trace 100 suspects in the Jill Dando murder - but questioned Cliff Richard and Jeremy Paxman to find out about her life https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3017544/How-police-failed-trace-100-suspects-Jill-Dando-murder-questioned-Cliff-Richard-Jeremy-Paxman-life.html

"Mark Williams-Thomas, the criminologist who helped expose Jimmy Savile as one of Britain's worst paedophiles, said today 'I have no doubt that the name of the killer or the person that arranged the 'professional hit' on is contained within the files'.

Imagine if it turned out to be Barry George all along?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 10, 2018, 08:15:37 PM
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

"Research carried out by The Disabilities Trust Foundation shows nearly half of prisoners (47%) have a history of traumatic brain injury (TBI). https://www.thedtgroup.org/foundation/brain-injury-and-offending#LEE
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 11, 2018, 12:33:38 PM
Reporter 'offered to sell names of victims'
"A FORMER police officer in the Jonathan King case who is now a TV documentary reporter offered to sell the names of the pop mogul’s victims, according to a judge.
Investigative reporter Mark Williams-Thomas, who made his name in a documentary exposing Jimmy Savile, has claimed to have solved a number of high-profile cases, including the murder of TV host Jill Dando.
But yesterday his professional reputation was called into question after Judge Deborah Taylor delivered a withering assessment of his previous work for Surrey Police on the King case. Before he left the force in October 2000 Mr Williams-Thomas was the detective who interviewed the first man to accuse King of sexual assault. He was subsequently accused – and acquitted – of blackmail in an unrelated case.
Yesterday the judge said: ‘ During the investigation into that offence a document was found on his computer offering for sale names and introductions to victims of Mr King.
‘There was also information that prior to Mr King’s arrest, Williams-Thomas said that he had been provided by a journalist with information about King. Williams-Thomas left taking his contemporaneous notebooks of his involvement with inquiries into Mr King with him.
‘No attempts had been made to obtain them, although it is the Crown’s position that he should not have taken them with him as they were the property of Surrey Police.’
The judge added that it had been suggested ‘there was deliberate concealment of his previous prosecution and of the documents indicating attempts to gain financial advantage from selling details of Mr King’s case’. Yesterday Mr Williams-Thomas denied ever knowing the victims’ identities, or offering them for sale.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180807/281732680305413

Jill Dando murder: Ex policeman claims he has the name of professional hitman who killed her
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/jill-dandos-killer-finally-found-13020582
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 11, 2018, 02:32:12 PM
"......... In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review
.

Newsnight visited the headquarters of Interpol in Lyon with Mark Willams Thomas, a criminologist and former child protection detective.
In the agency's Victim Identification Suite, Interpol officers demonstrated how central databases and international co-operation can aid rapid identification.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9532058.stm

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/dec/24/newsnight-researcher-bbc

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/may/03/bbc-newsnight-jimmy-savile-report

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/our_work/pollard_review/pollard_review.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/may/29/bbc-newsnight-liz-mackean-channel-4

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/may/29/bbc-newsnight-liz-mackean-channel-4

Was Mark Williams Thomas involvement in this case designed to manipulate?

"Mark Williams-Thomas, who now works as a TV investigator, said in an exclusive interview with the Daily Mirror that she died at the orders of a Mr Big to warn off others from probing a crime clan.

He said: "My theory is that Jill was gunned down on the orders of a London underworld Mr Big to send out a direct, bloody message to others: "Do not take on organised crime."

Mr Williams-Thomas found an intelligence report naming two men from Islington, North London, who were said to be acting for one of the capital's biggest crime families after examined more than 52,000 documents in the Dando Files.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/jill-dando-shot-dead-because-2503
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 11, 2018, 04:21:27 PM
"The collapse of Jonathan King’s trial raises questions about Surrey Police that go beyond disclosure failures"
http://barristerblogger.com/2018/08/08/the-collapse-of-jonathan-kings-trial-raises-questions-about-surrey-police-that-go-beyond-disclosure-failures/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mark_williams_thomas

http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/09/jonathan-king-and-mark-williams-thomas-some-media-notes/

Murder victims Grandson accuses Mark Williams Thomas of "Predatory actions"
http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/16/murder-victims-grandson-accuses-mark-williams-thomas-of-predatory-actions/


 Michelle Bates
@Michelle_Diskin
Replying to
@neill_bob
,
@CommonsJustice
 and
@cpsuk
Don’t let Alison Saunders make this about rape cases. Non disclosure in OTHER cases, too. Dando/George case, I have the letters to prove that. Jeremy Bamber case is an abomination. Noncompliance by police, they refuse to disclose evidence.
@Bambertweets
 
@tru68
 
@michaeljnaughto
7:36 am · 27 Jan 2018  https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/957155274485219328
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 11:01:44 AM
Are you a victim of a genuine miscarriage of justice?
"In recent months, I have been working with the multi award winning investigative reporter, Mark Williams-Thomas, best known for his extraordinary investigative work leading to the exposure of Jimmy Savile. He has investigated, reviewed and reported on many of the biggest crime stories including: The Alps murders, Tia Sharp murder, Claudia Lawrence murder and the murder of Alice Gross, together with his work on the Oscar Pistorius trial in South Africa. His work has led to numerous awards, including two Royal Television Society Awards, a Broadcasting Press Guild Award and an International Peabody Award. He is also BAFTA nominated.

Mark is a highly skilled crime investigator. He has reviewed a number of high profile cases. He has a tenacious and meticulous approach to the cases he reviews, an approach which is seldom matched even by lawyers and those working in the criminal justice system. Mark’s reputation is built on his many successes and he has shown that he is not afraid to take on the establishment and uncover the truth.

Although much of Mark’s worked has focused on detecting crime, he has also reviewed many miscarriages of justice and is currently actively involved in some high-profile reviews with a view to reversing wrongful convictions and establishing the truth. As an example, he has worked on trying to assist Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, and with his quest to obtain the justice it is strongly felt he deserves by getting compensation for having served a 9 year sentence for a crime he did not commit. He has been involved in a review of the disappearance of the Malaysian flight MH370 and is actively reviewing the murder conviction of a young dentist believed to have been wrongly convicted. It is no secret that Mark is a former police officer, but this has simply served to strengthen his ability to consider matters from both defence and prosecution perspectives when reviewing a case, which can only assist when looking at cases involving substantial injustice.

What is clear from Mark’s involvement in a case is not just his unrivalled approach to establishing what needs to be done to establish the truth, but how he achieves it. He has an extraordinary ability of understanding complex cases and establishing what went wrong at trial, and more importantly, what needs to be done. You only have to look at the resistance he must have faced when delving into the deep and murky world of Jimmy Savile when acknowledging just how successful he can be at uncovering the truth.

The significance of all this is that Mark and I have agreed to join forces with a view to reviewing 5 or so genuine miscarriages of justice. The cases we are looking to review need not be high profile, or even complex factually or legally, but simply where it is felt that with a further more detailed investigation, the truth can be exposed. It may be that various lines of enquiry need to be pursued which were perhaps considered not possible previously. This could be because witnesses would not come forward or could not be traced. It may be a case where there is a new theory to be explored as to who committed a crime that has resulted in the wrong person being convicted. It may be that enquiries need to be made of third parties who may hold and possess information that casts considerable doubt on the safety of a conviction. It may be that witnesses are out there who can be traced with a little digging who know the truth but simply need to be found. Equally, there may be concerns about a case that is still subject to an enquiry, and if charged a forensic investigation of the evidence leading to the charging decision may also be of great significance. As has been shown over the years, many overturned convictions in the court of appeal have resulted from a proper review of the unused evidence schedule. Many will know that this is a document prepared by the police and is often misleading, inaccurate or simply fails completely to record the full extent of an investigation. Lack of disclosure is a very common ground for appeal.

Mark and I will review the selected cases to uncover the fresh evidence that is needed to overturn a conviction. In addition, it may be that enquiries are received from suspects under investigation for serious offences where corruption or malpractice is alleged. It may be that our assistance in those cases and our intervention at an early stage can prevent wrongful conviction.

At first instance, those who wish to be considered for this should express their interest initially by writing to David Wells, Wells Burcombe. https://insidetime.org/are-you-a-victim-of-a-genuine-miscarriage-of-justice/

Michelle (Diskin) Bates says:
30th August 2017 at 8:45 am
A great great teaming. Miscarriage of justice victims need strong support and experienced, structured assistance to fight their convictions. Good luck with the new venture.
Michelle
(Barry George’s sister)

Cass says:
28th September 2017 at 2:42 pm
"I’m surprised David that as a qualified Solicitor and Barrister who has worked on some high profile cases that you haven’t done your homework on Mark Williams Thomas.
A bit of research will tell you that he was only a Detective for a year in Surrey then left, though I have heard he jumped before he was pushed.
He is not an expert in child protection, and a Masters in criminology, with no other post grad degree, doesn’t make him an expert in that field either.
His various CV’s about investigating or leading high profile cases are I would argue also untrue as Senior officers lead investigations.
Credit due for his dogged work in the Saville case, but he was invited on board by Merrion Jones after a lot of ground work was done. In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review.
As for ‘The Investigator’ the show revealed nothing that wasn’t already in the public domain and was edited to make MWT look good. It’s all in the Court of Appeal decision at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/1840.html
Anyway I don’t wish to harp on, but I often wonder if those who purport to be what they are not actually have a strong belief in justice for others…. or simply a desire to boost their own ego and line their own pockets.
Purporting to those who have suffered the loss of loved ones to be a seasoned and experienced investigator is not for me in the interests of justice. It is called giving false hope… as he did in the Investigator.
If David, as MWT said himself, you ‘dig around’, you’ll come to see he’s not all that he purports to be. In fact why not ask him face to face and see what he says. He knows what it’s like to be grilled after standing trial for Blackmail and being found not guilty.

"Adding fuel to the fire was a British former policeman and TV celebrity, Mark Williams-Thomas, who made the 2012 TV documentary which exposed the crimes of Jimmy Savile. Working with UK lawyer David Wells, he travelled to KL and compiled – at a cost of £8,000 – an unofficial report for Ivana’s family. Last week Wells issued a press release, headlined: ‘Model’s fatal fall was no accident, conclude St Albans solicitor and private investigator duo.’ They say they have ‘no doubt’ that in Britain, Ivana’s death would be treated as homicide. https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-mail-on-sunday/20180401/281822874356022
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 11:56:32 AM
Are you a victim of a genuine miscarriage of justice?
"In recent months, I have been working with the multi award winning investigative reporter, Mark Williams-Thomas, best known for his extraordinary investigative work leading to the exposure of Jimmy Savile. He has investigated, reviewed and reported on many of the biggest crime stories including: The Alps murders, Tia Sharp murder, Claudia Lawrence murder and the murder of Alice Gross, together with his work on the Oscar Pistorius trial in South Africa. His work has led to numerous awards, including two Royal Television Society Awards, a Broadcasting Press Guild Award and an International Peabody Award. He is also BAFTA nominated.

Mark is a highly skilled crime investigator. He has reviewed a number of high profile cases. He has a tenacious and meticulous approach to the cases he reviews, an approach which is seldom matched even by lawyers and those working in the criminal justice system. Mark’s reputation is built on his many successes and he has shown that he is not afraid to take on the establishment and uncover the truth.

Although much of Mark’s worked has focused on detecting crime, he has also reviewed many miscarriages of justice and is currently actively involved in some high-profile reviews with a view to reversing wrongful convictions and establishing the truth. As an example, he has worked on trying to assist Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder of Jill Dando, and with his quest to obtain the justice it is strongly felt he deserves by getting compensation for having served a 9 year sentence for a crime he did not commit. He has been involved in a review of the disappearance of the Malaysian flight MH370 and is actively reviewing the murder conviction of a young dentist believed to have been wrongly convicted. It is no secret that Mark is a former police officer, but this has simply served to strengthen his ability to consider matters from both defence and prosecution perspectives when reviewing a case, which can only assist when looking at cases involving substantial injustice.

What is clear from Mark’s involvement in a case is not just his unrivalled approach to establishing what needs to be done to establish the truth, but how he achieves it. He has an extraordinary ability of understanding complex cases and establishing what went wrong at trial, and more importantly, what needs to be done. You only have to look at the resistance he must have faced when delving into the deep and murky world of Jimmy Savile when acknowledging just how successful he can be at uncovering the truth.

The significance of all this is that Mark and I have agreed to join forces with a view to reviewing 5 or so genuine miscarriages of justice. The cases we are looking to review need not be high profile, or even complex factually or legally, but simply where it is felt that with a further more detailed investigation, the truth can be exposed. It may be that various lines of enquiry need to be pursued which were perhaps considered not possible previously. This could be because witnesses would not come forward or could not be traced. It may be a case where there is a new theory to be explored as to who committed a crime that has resulted in the wrong person being convicted. It may be that enquiries need to be made of third parties who may hold and possess information that casts considerable doubt on the safety of a conviction. It may be that witnesses are out there who can be traced with a little digging who know the truth but simply need to be found. Equally, there may be concerns about a case that is still subject to an enquiry, and if charged a forensic investigation of the evidence leading to the charging decision may also be of great significance. As has been shown over the years, many overturned convictions in the court of appeal have resulted from a proper review of the unused evidence schedule. Many will know that this is a document prepared by the police and is often misleading, inaccurate or simply fails completely to record the full extent of an investigation. Lack of disclosure is a very common ground for appeal.

Mark and I will review the selected cases to uncover the fresh evidence that is needed to overturn a conviction. In addition, it may be that enquiries are received from suspects under investigation for serious offences where corruption or malpractice is alleged. It may be that our assistance in those cases and our intervention at an early stage can prevent wrongful conviction.

At first instance, those who wish to be considered for this should express their interest initially by writing to David Wells, Wells Burcombe.
https://insidetime.org/are-you-a-victim-of-a-genuine-miscarriage-of-justice/

Michelle (Diskin) Bates says:
30th August 2017 at 8:45 am
A great great teaming. Miscarriage of justice victims need strong support and experienced, structured assistance to fight their convictions. Good luck with the new venture.
Michelle
(Barry George’s sister)

Cass says:
28th September 2017 at 2:42 pm
"I’m surprised David that as a qualified Solicitor and Barrister who has worked on some high profile cases that you haven’t done your homework on Mark Williams Thomas.
A bit of research will tell you that he was only a Detective for a year in Surrey then left, though I have heard he jumped before he was pushed.
He is not an expert in child protection, and a Masters in criminology, with no other post grad degree, doesn’t make him an expert in that field either.
His various CV’s about investigating or leading high profile cases are I would argue also untrue as Senior officers lead investigations.
Credit due for his dogged work in the Saville case, but he was invited on board by Merrion Jones after a lot of ground work was done. In fact he told Merrion by e-mail he was ‘keen to be involved’ as he started the Jonathan King investigation, which actually started after he left the force and was investigated by other officers.
Merrion thought MWT would be useful as an ex Surrey officer to find out if they had carried out an investigation into Saville. MWT agreed to ‘dig around’… it’s all in the Pollard Review.
As for ‘The Investigator’ the show revealed nothing that wasn’t already in the public domain and was edited to make MWT look good. It’s all in the Court of Appeal decision at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/1840.html
Anyway I don’t wish to harp on, but I often wonder if those who purport to be what they are not actually have a strong belief in justice for others…. or simply a desire to boost their own ego and line their own pockets.
Purporting to those who have suffered the loss of loved ones to be a seasoned and experienced investigator is not for me in the interests of justice. It is called giving false hope… as he did in the Investigator.
If David, as MWT said himself, you ‘dig around’, you’ll come to see he’s not all that he purports to be. In fact why not ask him face to face and see what he says. He knows what it’s like to be grilled after standing trial for Blackmail and being found not guilty.

"Adding fuel to the fire was a British former policeman and TV celebrity, Mark Williams-Thomas, who made the 2012 TV documentary which exposed the crimes of Jimmy Savile. Working with UK lawyer David Wells, he travelled to KL and compiled – at a cost of £8,000 – an unofficial report for Ivana’s family. Last week Wells issued a press release, headlined: ‘Model’s fatal fall was no accident, conclude St Albans solicitor and private investigator duo.’ They say they have ‘no doubt’ that in Britain, Ivana’s death would be treated as homicide. https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-mail-on-sunday/20180401/281822874356022
"Barry George had a gun pressed to his head and was told “watch your back” shortly after he was acquitted of BBC star Jill Dando’s murder.

He believes the threat came from somebody linked to the killing of the Crimewatch presenter in 1999.

Making a rare return to the street where he was living at the time, Barry, 58, adds that after one wrongful conviction he fears police will arrest him for ­something else he did not do.

Despite being acquitted 10 years ago he says he does “not feel free” and is “looking over my shoulder”.

After being found guilty in 2001 of murdering Jill, Barry was cleared at a retrial in 2008.

He was living in Hackney, East London, the following year when the chilling threat was made.

Barry says: “When I was in emergency accommodation in Hackney, I was stood in a long hallway and I had a gun put to my head and was told ‘Watch your back

“I went to the police station and told them and they gave me lip service. I was living in fear.

“There were two things in my mind: I’ve been acquitted of this crime and then I get a gun to my head.

“There was talk of a Serbian hit team involved in Jill’s killing.

“We think it must have been someone who had a link to the murder. It’s too much of a coincidence.” He added: “I didn’t get a look at them.”

The Met police confirmed a man then in his 40s reported an incident in Hack­ney in May 2009, but were unable to give full details of the probe.

David Wells, a criminal defence specialist at Wells Burcombe Solicitors, accompanied Barry to the police station to report the threat.

David said
: “He was incredibly distressed... sweating, out of breath and in quite a state.

“I’d seen Barry on many occasions and I had never seen him this distressed.

“Barry repeated that someone pointed a gun at him and made a threat – he appeared highly credible.

"He was very afraid. It could well have been someone linked to the murder of Jill Dando.

“It does seem unlikely someone would randomly select Barry out of millions in London and threaten him and put a gun to his head after his acquittal...

"If indeed it was rated as a serious complaint and investigated by police, nothing came of it

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gunman-told-barry-george-watch-12932133
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 12:37:14 PM
Michelle Bate's:
"More men have since joined us and, as a group we have planned a protest to coincide with day one of the Magna Carta 800 year commemoration, which takes place at Westminster on 23rd February.
The Magna Carta enshrines ‘Justice for all’, but we will be highlighting the fact that there is no justice for the little man
https://www.thejusticegap.com/innocent-innocent-enough/

"Mr George, along with three other men who have had their convictions quashed - Victor Nealon, Martin Foran and James Boyle - will protest later outside a global law summit taking place in central London.
The government introduced new legislation in 2014 which made changes to the compensation scheme, creating a statutory definition of what constitutes a "miscarriage of justice".
Now compensation is only paid when the court quashes a conviction because a new fact has emerged to show beyond reasonable doubt that the applicant did not commit the offence.
In an interview with Radio 5 live Breakfast, Mr George's sister Michelle Bates said: "In the British justice system you are innocent until proven guilty.
"To say that Barry should prove his innocence after his conviction was quashed is ridiculous. There is no court in the land where you can prove your innocence.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31578422

James Boyle
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/group-say-rutherglen-man-should-8925437

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13085281.Classroom_watchdog_finds_teacher_guilty_of_rape/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-20769477

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/206463-ex-teacher-cleared-of-rape-and-sex-abuse-fails-to-return-to-schools/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 02:12:24 PM
Murder victims Grandson accuses Mark Williams Thomas of "Predatory actions"
http://barthsnotes.com/2018/08/16/murder-victims-grandson-accuses-mark-williams-thomas-of-predatory-actions/


 Michelle Bates
@Michelle_Diskin
Replying to
@neill_bob
,
@CommonsJustice
 and
@cpsuk
Don’t let Alison Saunders make this about rape cases. Non disclosure in OTHER cases, too. Dando/George case, I have the letters to prove that. Jeremy Bamber case is an abomination. Noncompliance by police, they refuse to disclose evidence.
@Bambertweets
 
@tru68
 
@michaeljnaughto
7:36 am · 27 Jan 2018  https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/957155274485219328

Fanning the flames in the Ethical Vacuum.
by Anna Raccoon on November 30, 2012


‘It’s all the fault of the Internet’, cries the dead tree press. ‘We have to compete with them, and their wild landscape, and that has driven us to excesses we would never have thought of without their insane ramblings’.

Remarkable then, that Leveson has devoted 1973 pages to how the dead tree press should be behaving, and the nature of the naughty step that he thinks they should sit on when they fail to behave, and a mere 12 pages to the Internet that they claim to be aping in their rush to compete. The Internet is, Leveson says, an ‘ethical vacuum’, and as with the Curate’s egg, that is surely true in parts. Like Catholic priests, he believes the media should remain celibate, and foreswear the cyber pleasures. Theirs is a higher calling – that to inform, educate and entertain.

This morning, they are doing their best to do just that. To a man, they have eyed the excesses of ‘Rolf’ trending on Twitter, made their excuses and left, in time honoured fashion, pausing only to confirm that ‘an 80 year old man from Berkshire was interviewed under caution by appointment on matters not directly related to Savile’. Perfect – the Internet can do their dirty work for them, and they can merely slyly confirm that actually ‘it’ is on the right track, giving lofty credence to the rumours.

At a stroke, Leveson has ensured that in future the newspapers will behave – or face strict regulation to ensure that they do so. He has also ensured that it is the Internet which will be seen as the villain in the piece; the child that was left standing on the doorstep after the big boys had run away. Leveson claims that he was only mandated to look at the print media, not the Internet. Once the print media is behaving, assuming that this continues to happen as it has today, there will surely be renewed calls for a similar Inquiry into the Internet. Divide and Conquer.

That being said, we should look at who and why is busy fanning the flames in the Internet. Yesterday, whilst the Police were being suitably circumspect in giving information regarding the fact that ‘an 80 year old man’ had attended ‘an interview’ by appointment – which could be anything from, for instance, their role as Landlord of premises that might be of interest, to an allegation that had been made directly about them – ‘under caution’, which merely means that whatever they said was being formally recorded. The media followed in similar fashion.

However, someone, who self evidently didn’t get their information from either the media or officially from the Metropolitan Police, was very keen that the Internet should be given a new football to kick around. That someone was an ex-policeman.

(See link for screenshot)

Mark Williams-Thomas. A police constable who had finally climbed the greasy pole to get away from pounding the streets after 11 long years, and made it to Detective Constable – only to pack the job in a brief 12 months later. Mr Williams-Thomas claims to have ‘15 years in child protection‘ – the obvious inference from this statement, if not read in conjunction with his police record, would be that this was within a formal, professional environment such as the police. But he was only in the police for 12 years, and some of those would have been as a probationary PC. So a self made expert then?

When Mr Williams-Thomas first emerged from the police service, he described himself as a ‘freelance investigative journalist’. A much misunderstood ‘investigative journalist’, certainly misunderstood by one of his first subjects who was under the erroneous impression that Williams-Thomas was trying to blackmail him rather than document wrong doing within his organisation, a matter happily discharged by a jury.

A man who has since reinvented himself as a ‘child protection’ expert and talking head of choice to several TV stations whenever the issue of child abuse comes up. Madeleine McCann, Tia Sharp, Ashleigh Hall. A man who says he is all too well aware of the dangers to children posed by the Internet…and the need for, in his view, ‘policing’ of the Internet.

For the internet is full of people with sexually deviant desires – the level of danger goes way beyond even the most worried parent’s imagination.

Now why would someone who wants to see the Internet more effectively regulated and policed, ignore the restrained and professional behaviour of his ex-colleagues and the new found restraint of the print media – and, surely unintentionally, surely, be the cause of much possibly libellous chatter, speculation and gossip on the Internet by naming – and ‘hash-tagging’ with ‘Savile’ and ‘Sexual’ the mystery 80 year old as Rolf Harris?

The cynical amongst us, including myself, could almost believe that it was in such a persons interests to fan the flames in the ‘Ethical Vacuum’. Either that or he is a complete dipstick.

I can feel only sympathy for Rolf Harris – and his wife. We have absolutely no idea whatsoever why he was interviewed. It could have been as tenuous as having been named as an ‘alibi’ by someone else. At 80 years old though, at the end of his life, when he should have been reflecting with some satisfaction on his legacy, he is now subject to endless speculation on the Internet that he may be connected with such a vile practice as Paedophilia. Responsible people in the police and media gave him the benefit of the doubt pending concrete information, and chose not to link his name to Savile and the various allegations.

Mark Williams-Thomas didn’t.

‘Why not’? – is a question I shall ponder more over the coming weeks.

https://annaraccoon.com/2012/11/30/fanning-the-flames-in-the-ethical-vacuum/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 03:22:09 PM
Wonder what Barry George and his sister Michelle Bate's have to say about this nonsense?


DID SAVILE ORDER JILL DANDO’S MURDER?
She was going to expose him, says new book
November 2016

"JILL Dando was murdered on the orders of Jimmy Savile because the late Crimewatch presenter was just about to expose the meganonce’s vile crimes.
What’s more, the authorities KNEW that Savile was the ‘ Mr Big’ who ordered the hit but were powerless to act as the DJ and industrial scale kiddy- fiddler was protected by shadowy Establishment figures.
That is the chilling theory proposed by author John Gilchrist, who has spent the last two years researching links between Savile and Jill’s murder.
The 37- year- old TV presenter was shot dead on April 26, 1999, on the doorstep of her home in west London. The crime remains unsolved to this day.
In 2001, Barry George was wrongly convicted of the murder and spent seven years behind bars before he was freed on appeal.
Disgrace
John reckons that Mr George was set up as a “fall guy” to divert attention away from Savile, who died in 2011, aged 84.
The author said: “The whole case is tragic, chilling and a disgrace to Britain. It was particularly tragic for Barry George, who rotted in jail for years, wrongly convicted of killing Jill.”
John claims Jill was told that DJs, celebrities and other staff were involved in organised abuse and that Savile “topped the list”.
But an anonymous source told him that “no- one wanted to know” when Jill raised concerns about the alleged ring and other sexual abuse claims at the BBC.
The source is quoted by John as saying: “I think Jill was shocked by what she was told and made it her business to stop it.
“She was a woman on a mission – and that mission terrified Savile. Nobody at the BBC had stood up to him before.
“Savile considered sexually smearing Jill through his contacts in the media but that was a non- runner. Jill was too popular.
“She had to die… and it was Savile who gave the order.”
John says that Savile “called in a favour” from underworld pals, who blasted Jill to death on the doorstep of her home.
Theories about her death ranged from the culprit being a Serbian warlord angry over her TV appeal on behalf of Kosovan refugees, to British underworld enforcers who were furious at her
Crimewatch investigations. But the paedophile ring link appears to be the only one that still holds water.
John said: “It was a massive job to protect Savile from investigation but the people shielding him are among the most powerful in the land.
“Even with Savile dead, the cover- up continues – if details ever came out it would rock the government, the civil service, the courts… the lot.”
Meanwhile, a former Scotland Yard Flying Squad boss revealed his former colleagues ignored ‘ excellent leads’ into the unsolved murder of Jill Dando.
John O’Connor said: “I was given an excellent lead that was ignored.
“The Met did nothing with it. It was quite clear this was a pro hit by a trained assassin.
Witness
“The person identified was a significant and key witness. But the Met just shut its eyes to everything else, once they’d nicked poor Barry George.”
Mr O’Connor now wants Home Secretary Amber Rudd to look into the unsolved case.
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: “The Metropolitan Police Service fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando.
“If any new information comes to our attention this will be investigated.”
Last year, it was revealed that more than 100 potential murder suspects who could have shot dead Jill Dando on her doorstep in a ‘ professional hit’ were never traced by police.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/sunday-sport/20161127/282626032287910



Jill Dando raised alarm about ‘paedophile ring at BBC’ - By JOHN CARR
00:01, Mon, Jul 21, 2014

"MURDERED television presenter Jill Dando tried to alert her bosses to a paedophile ring at the BBC ­involving “big name” stars, claims a former colleague.

"The friend and retired BBC worker said the late Crimewatch host was told DJs, celebrities and other staff were involved in organised abuse.

But the anonymous source says “no one wanted to know” when Miss Dando raised concerns about the alleged ring and other sexual abuse claims at the BBC.

She is said to have passed a file to senior management in the mid-1990s, but they never carried out an investigation.

The 37-year-old TV presenter was shot dead on April 26, 1999, on the doorstep of her home in west London. The crime remains unsolved.

The source said: “I don’t recall the names of all the stars now and don’t want to implicate anyone, but Jill said they were surprisingly big names.

“I think she was quite shocked when told about images of children and that information on how to join this horrible paedophile ring was freely available.

“Jill said others had complained to her about sexual matters and that some female workmates also claimed they had been groped or assaulted.

“Nothing had been done and there seemed to be a policy of turning a blind eye.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/490169/Dando-alarm-paedophile-ring-BBC


"Knowing God Personally
The Christian Message to the Muslim World
By John Gilchrist

https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/gilchrist/knowing_god.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 04:15:34 PM
Getting it wrong once was bad enough but Sandra Lean got it wrong twice that we definitely know about. She went to great lengths to campaign for killers Adrian Prout and Simon Hall yet both men eventually admitted their guilt. I for one would certainly question her judgement.

Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.

What surprises you about Michelle Bate's involvement with Jeremy Bamber?

You only need look at some of the other people she's been involved with to recognise it's not just Sandra Lean's judgement that's lacking.

(Wonder who'll be the first to post to remind me of the Simon Hall case?)
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 15, 2018, 06:39:01 PM
Wonder what Barry George and his sister Michelle Bate's have to say about this nonsense?


DID SAVILE ORDER JILL DANDO’S MURDER?
She was going to expose him, says new book
November 2016

"JILL Dando was murdered on the orders of Jimmy Savile because the late Crimewatch presenter was just about to expose the meganonce’s vile crimes.
What’s more, the authorities KNEW that Savile was the ‘ Mr Big’ who ordered the hit but were powerless to act as the DJ and industrial scale kiddy- fiddler was protected by shadowy Establishment figures.
That is the chilling theory proposed by author John Gilchrist, who has spent the last two years researching links between Savile and Jill’s murder.
The 37- year- old TV presenter was shot dead on April 26, 1999, on the doorstep of her home in west London. The crime remains unsolved to this day.
In 2001, Barry George was wrongly convicted of the murder and spent seven years behind bars before he was freed on appeal.
Disgrace
John reckons that Mr George was set up as a “fall guy” to divert attention away from Savile, who died in 2011, aged 84.
The author said: “The whole case is tragic, chilling and a disgrace to Britain. It was particularly tragic for Barry George, who rotted in jail for years, wrongly convicted of killing Jill.”
John claims Jill was told that DJs, celebrities and other staff were involved in organised abuse and that Savile “topped the list”.
But an anonymous source told him that “no- one wanted to know” when Jill raised concerns about the alleged ring and other sexual abuse claims at the BBC.
The source is quoted by John as saying: “I think Jill was shocked by what she was told and made it her business to stop it.
“She was a woman on a mission – and that mission terrified Savile. Nobody at the BBC had stood up to him before.
“Savile considered sexually smearing Jill through his contacts in the media but that was a non- runner. Jill was too popular.
“She had to die… and it was Savile who gave the order.”
John says that Savile “called in a favour” from underworld pals, who blasted Jill to death on the doorstep of her home.
Theories about her death ranged from the culprit being a Serbian warlord angry over her TV appeal on behalf of Kosovan refugees, to British underworld enforcers who were furious at her
Crimewatch investigations. But the paedophile ring link appears to be the only one that still holds water.
John said: “It was a massive job to protect Savile from investigation but the people shielding him are among the most powerful in the land.
“Even with Savile dead, the cover- up continues – if details ever came out it would rock the government, the civil service, the courts… the lot.”
Meanwhile, a former Scotland Yard Flying Squad boss revealed his former colleagues ignored ‘ excellent leads’ into the unsolved murder of Jill Dando.
John O’Connor said: “I was given an excellent lead that was ignored.
“The Met did nothing with it. It was quite clear this was a pro hit by a trained assassin.
Witness
“The person identified was a significant and key witness. But the Met just shut its eyes to everything else, once they’d nicked poor Barry George.”
Mr O’Connor now wants Home Secretary Amber Rudd to look into the unsolved case.
A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: “The Metropolitan Police Service fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando.
“If any new information comes to our attention this will be investigated.”
Last year, it was revealed that more than 100 potential murder suspects who could have shot dead Jill Dando on her doorstep in a ‘ professional hit’ were never traced by police.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/sunday-sport/20161127/282626032287910



Jill Dando raised alarm about ‘paedophile ring at BBC’ - By JOHN CARR
00:01, Mon, Jul 21, 2014

"MURDERED television presenter Jill Dando tried to alert her bosses to a paedophile ring at the BBC ­involving “big name” stars, claims a former colleague.

"The friend and retired BBC worker said the late Crimewatch host was told DJs, celebrities and other staff were involved in organised abuse.

But the anonymous source says “no one wanted to know” when Miss Dando raised concerns about the alleged ring and other sexual abuse claims at the BBC.

She is said to have passed a file to senior management in the mid-1990s, but they never carried out an investigation.

The 37-year-old TV presenter was shot dead on April 26, 1999, on the doorstep of her home in west London. The crime remains unsolved.

The source said: “I don’t recall the names of all the stars now and don’t want to implicate anyone, but Jill said they were surprisingly big names.

“I think she was quite shocked when told about images of children and that information on how to join this horrible paedophile ring was freely available.

“Jill said others had complained to her about sexual matters and that some female workmates also claimed they had been groped or assaulted.

“Nothing had been done and there seemed to be a policy of turning a blind eye.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/490169/Dando-alarm-paedophile-ring-BBC


"Knowing God Personally
The Christian Message to the Muslim World
By John Gilchrist

https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/gilchrist/knowing_god.html

So who is John Gilchrist alleged annonymous source!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 18, 2018, 05:34:14 PM
Barry George's uncle Mike Burke said in his book, "The investigation into the disappearance of Madaleine McCann was possibly the only case to receive more attention than Dando's murder."

He goes on to say;

"I was quite annoyed when I read reports of Doctor Michael Kopelmans medical opinion of Barry.it seemed to me that Barry's inappropriate behaviour was being blamed on the overall family. I sent a protest to Jeremy Moore. In my opinion one is responsible for ones own actions. And it is a cop out to try and blame ones bad behaviour on the family
.

Wasn't part of George's defence based on genetics?

A further example of his exhibitionistic and obsessive mentality comes from his medical history. George attended no less than eighteen different surgeries in West London at various times and was known as a “heart sink” patient because he was constantly coming in with imagined ailments.
Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic person- ality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to aut- ism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.
Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases. A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A para- noid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspi- cion of the police. Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become ob- sessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent facti- tious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/legan/legan037.pdf

"Research suggests that genetics, abuse and other factors contribute to the development of obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic or other personality disorders.
In the past, some believed that people with personality disorders were just lazy or even evil. But new research has begun to explore such potential causes as genetics, parenting and peer influences:http://www.apa.org/topics/personality/disorders-causes.aspx

Jill Dando murder trial: Experts were split on Barry George's behaviour
https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/jill-dando-murder-trial-experts-were-split-on-barry-george-s-behaviour-1-1083223

"JURORS were asked to consider whether Barry George was a harmless "local nutter" – or a dangerous celebrity-obsessed stalker with a grudge against women.
Experts called by the prosecution and defence came up with rival theories to explain his behaviour

wever, Dr Philip Joseph, another leading psychiatrist who was called by the prosecution, said George was "far more competent" than tests would suggest and capable of lying in police interviews.

While some of his behaviour could be attributed to his epilepsy and cognitive impairment, his stalking of women appeared to stem from an "intense anger" caused by rejection, Dr Joseph said.

He also said that George developed a "fantasy world" in which he believed he knew famous people.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 18, 2018, 05:58:56 PM
Does anyone know the outcome of the following?

"He had been labelled as posing ''a high-level risk'' despite his acquittal of the Dando murder. His other two spent convictions, dating from 1983, could not justify interference with his liberty.
Mr George has a pending High Court hearing challenging the decision to keep his movements under supervision, expected to be heard early in the New Year

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6833611/Barry-George-wants-police-off-his-back-court-hears.html

All I could find was this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11081686

Suggesting it may have been dropped? Anyone?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 18, 2018, 07:41:21 PM
"Since his acquittal last year he has been on the ­highest category list of a Multi-Agency Public­Protection Arrangement, which involves police visiting his home every three months.

Mr George, 49, will argue in the High Court that this gives ­police the authority to stop him for no reason and prevents him leading a normal life.

Since his release he has been stopped in the street 15 times.

On one occasion officers said that he had looked at them in a “funny way” and at another time he was accused of paying “close attention to coffee shops”.

Mr George was also stopped by police during a visit to the Isle of Wight and, while visiting family in Ireland, was taken to a city centre police station in Cork by officers from the Gardai.

He has moved to Hackney, east London, from Fulham in west London, where he lived before his imprisonment and where TV presenter Jill was shot dead on her doorstep in 1999.

His new housing ­authority, which has a duty to give him a home following his quashed ­sentence, has not allowed him to move from rented emergency accommodation because of his “high-risk” status. Mr George has convictions for indecent assault and attempted rape dating back to 1983 but it is claimed they happened too long ago to justify the monitoring.

At a preliminary hearing, Ian Glen, QC, said that his client wants to “get the police off his back” so he can rebuild his life.

He said: “Paying close attention to coffee shops is not an offence as far as I know.

“To be stopped for reasons such as that, and there are many, many other examples we will submit, is disproportionate ­interference with his liberties.”

The Metropolitan Police, ­acting in court in defence of the Mappa order, said any street stops are nothing to do with it.

His new housing ­authority, which has a duty to give him a home following his quashed ­sentence, has not allowed him to move from rented emergency accommodation because of his “high-risk” status. Mr George has convictions for indecent assault and attempted rape dating back to 1983 but it is claimed they happened too long ago to justify the monitoring.

At a preliminary hearing, Ian Glen, QC, said that his client wants to “get the police off his back” so he can rebuild his life.

He said: “Paying close attention to coffee shops is not an offence as far as I know.

“To be stopped for reasons such as that, and there are many, many other examples we will submit, is disproportionate ­interference with his liberties.”

The Metropolitan Police, ­acting in court in defence of the Mappa order, said any street stops are nothing to do with it.

James Dingemans QC told the hearing: “Harassment allegations that came to light during the Dando investigation are still relevant..”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/148232/Police-harass-Jill-Dando-case-man
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 22, 2018, 11:34:21 AM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

.Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.
Together magazine speaks to Michelle Diskin, sister of Barry George, the man who was wrongly convicted for the murder of Jill Dando.

You have become a campaigner for other cases of miscarriage of justice. Can you tell us why you decided to get involved and about the work that you do?

Michelle Diskin Bate's states:
"The decision to speak out about other wrongful convictions was not one I took lightly. Historically, we can see that people who do so are often maligned for their efforts. I took my concerns to God … what should I do? He gave me the same answer he had given me in Barry’s case: he said STAND. Therefore, I take every opportunity to point people to the true facts of these cases. It is not enough to make judgements based solely on the media’s slanted editorials. I still speak at miscarriage of justice conventions, and also address universities to encourage and inform the next generation of legal students.

Finally, do you have a personal message for any bookshop manager, reading this, who has to decide whether to stock your book?

Michelle Diskin Bate's:
"I have long felt that this book should have a Christian publisher, and should be distributed through Christian bookshops because of the testimony of how God brought us through this ordeal. Stand Against Injustice has a Christian message about injustice and I believe this story will reignite the interest of the public and show how God is working in our lives, daily, in a very real way.
https://clcbookshops.com/post/stand-against-injustice-jill-dando-murder


Here are Mike Tesco's statements on "Who or what is God"
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9734.msg447916/topicseen.html?PHPSESSID=u6ta23fjialbsrn3sumepfdnr6#msg447916
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 22, 2018, 02:03:16 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Stalker, rapist and sex prowler
Ian Cobain and Stewart Tendler in London
July 3 2001 12:11 AM
 
"Mr Campbell told the court that George had raped a woman in 1982 - he pleaded guilty to attempted rape - and that he had previous convictions for indecent assault and for impersonating a police officer.

George also raped his Japanese wife Itsuko Toide, who left him after 11 months of a marriage filled with violence and intimidation. In an interview published today, she gives a remarkable insight into the mind of a man filled with rage and hatred of women.

George met Miss Toide after she had suffered a sexual assault herself and was feeling highly vulnerable. They married after a romance lasting four months. Almost immediately he began subjecting her to a series of sexual and physical attacks at the cramped ground-floor council flat that they shared in Crookham Road, Fulham.

The jury was not allowed to know that George had a long history of stalking women in the area where Miss Dando lived, although detectives found clear evidence that he had followed at least 419 women in Fulham, taking 2,597 photographs of them.

The judge also ruled during pre-trial legal argument that the jury should not learn that George had been arrested in 1983 while prowling in the grounds of Kensington Palace, close to the private apartments of the Prince and Princess of Wales, clad in camouflage fatigues and wielding a commando knife.

Despite these revelations, George's defence team announced they were to launching an immediate appeal.

One possible ground for appeal may be the discovery that one of the prosecution witnesses, Charlotte de Rosnay, 29, was involved for a while in a relationship with a member of the murder squad, Detective Constable Peter Bartlett.

Miss Dando (37) was murdered as she arrived at her home in Fulham, southwest London, on the morning of Monday April 26, 1999

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/stalker-rapist-and-sex-prowler-26079016.html


Dando detective forced out over leaks 19 February 2002
"A Metropolitan Police detective who worked on the Jill Dando murder investigation has been forced to resign for leaking information to the media.

Scotland Yard said Detective Constable Robert McKenzie was found guilty of failing to disclose contact with the media and failing to obey a lawful order.

After he was found guilty at a disciplinary tribunal last week he was "required to resign".

DC McKenzie was one of 45 officers drafted in to the high-profile murder inquiry after Miss Dando, a BBC TV presenter, was shot on her London doorstep in April 1999.

They were all told not to talk to any member of the media without prior approval and without reporting what they had said.

DC McKenzie was working with the central area Organised Crime Squad when he was suspended in January 2000.

It is not known what he had told the media.

Meanwhile another Dando inquiry detective who has had charges of harassing a married woman witness dropped is set to face an internal inquiry.

Superiors took DC Peter Bartlett, 40, off the Dando case when it emerged he had had an affair during the investigation with Charlotte de Rosnay, a neighbour of Miss Dando's in Fulham, west London.

The harassment charge was dropped on Monday when Mrs de Rosnay withdrew the allegation.

An internal inquiry has been launched by the Metropolitan Police's directorate of professional standards.

DC Bartlett, based at Barnes police station in south west London, has been placed on restricted duties.

Last December the man convicted of Miss Dando's murder, 41-year-old Barry George, was given leave to appeal and the case is expected to be heard this summer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1829128.stm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 22, 2018, 02:09:52 PM
Reporter 'offered to sell names of victims'
"A FORMER police officer in the Jonathan King case who is now a TV documentary reporter offered to sell the names of the pop mogul’s victims, according to a judge.
Investigative reporter Mark Williams-Thomas, who made his name in a documentary exposing Jimmy Savile, has claimed to have solved a number of high-profile cases, including the murder of TV host Jill Dando.
But yesterday his professional reputation was called into question after Judge Deborah Taylor delivered a withering assessment of his previous work for Surrey Police on the King case. Before he left the force in October 2000 Mr Williams-Thomas was the detective who interviewed the first man to accuse King of sexual assault. He was subsequently accused – and acquitted – of blackmail in an unrelated case.
Yesterday the judge said: ‘ During the investigation into that offence a document was found on his computer offering for sale names and introductions to victims of Mr King.
‘There was also information that prior to Mr King’s arrest, Williams-Thomas said that he had been provided by a journalist with information about King. Williams-Thomas left taking his contemporaneous notebooks of his involvement with inquiries into Mr King with him.
‘No attempts had been made to obtain them, although it is the Crown’s position that he should not have taken them with him as they were the property of Surrey Police.’
The judge added that it had been suggested ‘there was deliberate concealment of his previous prosecution and of the documents indicating attempts to gain financial advantage from selling details of Mr King’s case’. Yesterday Mr Williams-Thomas denied ever knowing the victims’ identities, or offering them for sale.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180807/281732680305413

Why did Michelle Diskin Bate's & Barry George choose Mark Williams Thomas to "re-investiagate" the murder of Jill Dando?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 22, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
Stalker, rapist and sex prowler
Ian Cobain and Stewart Tendler in London
July 3 2001 12:11 AM
 
"Mr Campbell told the court that George had raped a woman in 1982 - he pleaded guilty to attempted rape - and that he had previous convictions for indecent assault and for impersonating a police officer.

George also raped his Japanese wife Itsuko Toide, who left him after 11 months of a marriage filled with violence and intimidation. In an interview published today, she gives a remarkable insight into the mind of a man filled with rage and hatred of women.

George met Miss Toide after she had suffered a sexual assault herself and was feeling highly vulnerable. They married after a romance lasting four months. Almost immediately he began subjecting her to a series of sexual and physical attacks at the cramped ground-floor council flat that they shared in Crookham Road, Fulham.

The jury was not allowed to know that George had a long history of stalking women in the area where Miss Dando lived, although detectives found clear evidence that he had followed at least 419 women in Fulham, taking 2,597 photographs of them.

The judge also ruled during pre-trial legal argument that the jury should not learn that George had been arrested in 1983 while prowling in the grounds of Kensington Palace, close to the private apartments of the Prince and Princess of Wales, clad in camouflage fatigues and wielding a commando knife.

Despite these revelations, George's defence team announced they were to launching an immediate appeal.

One possible ground for appeal may be the discovery that one of the prosecution witnesses, Charlotte de Rosnay, 29, was involved for a while in a relationship with a member of the murder squad, Detective Constable Peter Bartlett.

Miss Dando (37) was murdered as she arrived at her home in Fulham, southwest London, on the morning of Monday April 26, 1999

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/stalker-rapist-and-sex-prowler-26079016.html


Dando detective forced out over leaks 19 February 2002
"A Metropolitan Police detective who worked on the Jill Dando murder investigation has been forced to resign for leaking information to the media.

Scotland Yard said Detective Constable Robert McKenzie was found guilty of failing to disclose contact with the media and failing to obey a lawful order.

After he was found guilty at a disciplinary tribunal last week he was "required to resign
".

DC McKenzie was one of 45 officers drafted in to the high-profile murder inquiry after Miss Dando, a BBC TV presenter, was shot on her London doorstep in April 1999.

They were all told not to talk to any member of the media without prior approval and without reporting what they had said.

DC McKenzie was working with the central area Organised Crime Squad when he was suspended in January 2000.

It is not known what he had told the media.

Meanwhile another Dando inquiry detective who has had charges of harassing a married woman witness dropped is set to face an internal inquiry.

Superiors took DC Peter Bartlett, 40, off the Dando case when it emerged he had had an affair during the investigation with Charlotte de Rosnay, a neighbour of Miss Dando's in Fulham, west London.

The harassment charge was dropped on Monday when Mrs de Rosnay withdrew the allegation.

An internal inquiry has been launched by the Metropolitan Police's directorate of professional standards.

DC Bartlett, based at Barnes police station in south west London, has been placed on restricted duties.

Last December the man convicted of Miss Dando's murder, 41-year-old Barry George, was given leave to appeal and the case is expected to be heard this summer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1829128.stm

What information was leaked to the media and when?

This?

Dando Murder: A choice of contract killers is now available from just pounds 1000 April 1999
"The murder of Jill Dando closely matches the blueprint for a professional hit, in terms of location, timing and method of execution.

Detectives say that typically, victims are targeted on their doorsteps as they arrive home or answer a knock at the door. The 9mm semi-automatic is, along with the old-fashioned revolver, the contract killer's weapon of choice. The US-made Browning, though illegal in the wake of Dunblane, is widely available for as little as pounds 250 on the black market. Originally issued to British servicemen in the 1950s it is still in use by the Army.

Ms Dando's murderer also followed the first rule of such executions, which is to fire from point-blank range.

But instead of using a motor cycle for a quick getaway and wearing a crash helmet to hide his face, as is usual for hitmen, Ms Dando's murderer apparently lingered in the street, undisguised, before the killing, and left the scene on foot.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/dando-murder-a-choice-of-contract-killers-is-now-available-from-just-pounds-1000-1090053.html


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg456096#msg456096
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 22, 2018, 02:57:48 PM
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=michael+boirke+barry+george+campaign+to+clear+name&source=bl&ots=Osv66NAZ9H&sig=u6QkUj9tNaTGF9YhqcBKAPXCuHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidxre7ua_aAhWNSsAKHUtQDA4Q6AEwBXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=michael%20boirke%20barry%20george%20campaign%20to%20clear%20name&f=false

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg454799#msg454799 "Barry George's Mike says he felt bitter for a long time after George was released from prison. He talks of how he and fellow supporters were ultimately dumped by George; even though he'd put in years of campaigning?

"In an angry email to me this week, Michelle Diskin claimed her brother was the victim of a media-driven plot designed to smear and intimidate him.

George's uncle on his mother's side, Michael Bourke fears that the police, having ultimately failed to nail him for murder, might be trying to frame him.

It could be like O. J. Simpson  -  you get him second time around,' he said.

His mother said much the same when I spoke to her at her West London home. 'I'm very worried for Barry,' she said. 'How can he be happy when they're all out to get him?'

The George family, incidentally, have been torn apart by in-fighting since their 'Free Barry' crusade ended.

Limerick bus-driver Mr Bourke, 53, is estranged from the main George camp for suggesting that the Miscarriages of Justice outfit might be self-serving.

He also questioned the wisdom of parading his nephew (who, in the words of one friend 'can't tell the difference between fame and infamy') before the TV cameras just hours after he was freed.

Of course, all this turmoil is just what a volatile character like George does not need, as he struggles to adjust to the real world after eight years inside.

In the grim appraisal of Ian Horrocks, the retired Scotland Yard detective who was number two on the original Dando murder inquiry, George is still a 'danger to women' and in need of constant supervision.

Listening to his friends describing the cloistered, eerily obsessive netherworld he has invented for himself, it is impossible to escape the fear that here is a walking time-bomb, just waiting to explode.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076331/Obsessed-visiting-Jill-Dandos-grave-acting-erratically-Barry-George-man-edge.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 25, 2018, 11:39:32 AM

Michelle Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
People hate to think there has been a wrongful conviction, it shakes their confidence, therefore they attack the people campaigning for justice, like journalist Chris Mullin, or in this case, Sandra Lean. https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1041002046386790401

Getting it wrong once was bad enough but Sandra Lean got it wrong twice that we definitely know about. She went to great lengths to campaign for killers Adrian Prout and Simon Hall yet both men eventually admitted their guilt. I for one would certainly question her judgement.

Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.

What about Billy Middleton and Nick Ward? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-13048362

"When Emma first went missing between late March and May last year, they led public appeals to help find their friend. A group set up on social networking site Facebook attracted more than 7,400 people, initially to help trace the 22-year-old and later paying tribute to her.http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/murder-trial-background-friends-pay-tribute-to-norfolk-woman-emma-ward-1-863970

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/murder-trial-background-friends-pay-tribute-to-norfolk-woman-emma-ward-1-863970

Sandra Lean has been involved in lots of cases, however her thesis suggests she was impartial, as opposed to a campaigner? Her thesis records something like 360 cases?

I'm familiar with some of them.

At one time I was in contact with several friends and family members of some of the cases she was involved in. Nick Wards ex girlfriend (and her Mum) were two of them. She was Ward's partner whilst he was on remand; prior to being found guilty for the murder of his wife. Before his trial she had campaigned on his behalf on Facebook claiming he was innocent.

Michelle Bate's refers to Sandra Lean as a campaigner (campaigning for justice) and that's what I always assumed she was as did the people I was in contact with?

"DOCTOR Sandra Lean has dedicated her career to defending those who have been wrongfully convicted.
A mother of two daughters, she had a quiet but content life, running her own business in the town of Dalkeith.
But that all changed when the area was rocked by the brutal murder of 14-year old Jodi Jones in June 2003.
The teenager was discovered in woodland behind Newbattle High School – the same school that her eldest attended. At the heart of the crime was the accusation that 14-year old Luke Mitchell, Jodi’s boyfriend, was the murderer.
The murder would take Lean in an unexpected direction, as she sought to understand the events which were unfolding on her doorstep. After doubts that Mitchell was the killer, she began to investigate, leading to the publication of her first book about miscarriages of justice.
She then gained her PHD in criminal justice, becoming a fully qualified paralegal at the same time as finishing her thesis, all the while campaigning for those wrongfully convicted.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-herald/20180915/281492162220037
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on October 29, 2018, 03:40:18 PM
Why did Michelle Diskin Bate's & Barry George choose Mark Williams Thomas to "re-investiagate" the murder of Jill Dando?

https://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/category/Community/Ive-been-blocked-by-Mark-Williams-Thomas-522810787785441/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 02, 2018, 10:09:46 AM
Barry George's uncle Mike Burke said in his book, "The investigation into the disappearance of Madaleine McCann was possibly the only case to receive more attention than Dando's murder."

He goes on to say;

"I was quite annoyed when I read reports of Doctor Michael Kopelmans medical opinion of Barry.it seemed to me that Barry's inappropriate behaviour was being blamed on the overall family. I sent a protest to Jeremy Moore. In my opinion one is responsible for ones own actions. And it is a cop out to try and blame ones bad behaviour on the family.

Wasn't part of George's defence based on genetics?

A further example of his exhibitionistic and obsessive mentaloty comes from his medical history. George attended no less than eighteen different surgeries in West London at various times and was known as a “heart sink” patient because he was constantly coming in with imagined ailments.
Doctors who examined George after his arrest diagnosed an impressive array of psychiatric disorders: psychopathic personality, narcissistic personality, histrionic personality, paranoid personality and Asperger’s Syndrome (a disorder linked to autism). As a boy he was diagnosed as suffering from attention hyperactivity disorder. George was also diagnosed as having somatisation disorder and concurrent factitious disorder.
Whether psychiatric diagnoses mean anything is debatable. However, the police and courts credit them and therefore should have taken them into account before a prosecution was mounted. The interesting thing about these diagnoses is that they relate to personality traits which could innocently explain every part of George’s supposedly suspicious behaviour both before and after the Dando murder. A psychopathic personality is prone to lying and using aliases. A narcissistic personality is one who urgently seeks attention and admiration and has a heightened sense of self-importance. A histrionic personality will imagine they have a well developed relationship with someone they do not know at all in a personal sense. A para- noid personality has obvious ramifications for George’s suspi- cion of the police. Asperger’s sufferers have major problems with personal relationships and a tendency to become ob- sessive. Finally, somatisation disorder and concurrent facti- tious disorder explained his imagined illnesses.http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/legan/legan037.pdf

"Research suggests that genetics, abuse and other factors contribute to the development of obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic or other personality disorders.
In the past, some believed that people with personality disorders were just lazy or even evil. But new research has begun to explore such potential causes as genetics, parenting and peer influences:
http://www.apa.org/topics/personality/disorders-causes.aspx
Martin Bryant described as "intellectually limited & dim witted" and said to have Asperger’s Syndrome.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56JCVbaCqCM

"A psychologist's view was that he would never hold down a job, as he would aggravate people to such an extent that he would always be in trouble

Descriptions of Bryant's behaviour as an adolescent show that he continued to be disturbed and outlined the possibility of an intellectual disability. He was revealed to be borderline mentally disabled, with an I.Q. of 66,[4] equivalent to an 11-year-old. Further testing following his arrest indicated a verbal I.Q. of 64 and non-verbal reasoning and cognitive functioning of 68, giving a full-scale I.Q. of 66, an age equivalent of 11 years in the 10th percentile (90% of 11-year-olds would score higher).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant


"Before his trial, George was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.[13] Prosecution psychologists studying George since his arrest for the Dando murder claimed that he was suffering from several different personality disorders: antisocial, histrionic, narcissistic and possibly paranoid,[5] as well as somatization and factitious disorders and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.[14] He was said to suffer from epilepsy and have an IQ of 75;[10] however, a prior assessment found George to be of average intelligence.[5] George has also been likened to a "lone obsessive, Walter Mitty-type figure" for his desire to impersonate famous figures
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_George
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 02, 2018, 11:04:22 AM
The power of cognitive bias
"A cognitive bias is a systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment. ... A continually evolving list of cognitive biases has been identified over the last six decades of research on human judgment and decision-making in cognitive science, social psychology, and behavioral economics.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/cognitive-biases-2015-10

Criminal Investigational Ethics
"12.1 Investigator Biases
Cognitive biases including individual perception, intuition, and tunnel vision can influence an investigator’s view of a particular issue within a case.9 Detectives should also be aware of external pressures that might influence decisions. Organizational traps such as groupthink, rumor, and ego all might impact investigative decision-making. Kim Rossmo (2009) in his book, Criminal Investigative Failures,9 provides an in-depth look at these and other specific issues

Conclusions
"The following link lists approximately 50 automatic and unconscious cognitive biases, including those mentioned above, that render cognitive decisions defective, distorted, biased, and just plain wrong.21 The worst part is that we are almost always unaware of these unconscious processes. Automatic and unconscious memory defects, distortions, and biases further complicate our ability to reason effectively. A list of 45 common memory biases can be found at the following URL.22 Together they form 95 ways in which people automatically and unconsciously process information without the slightest awareness of doing so.
There are two common themes or threads that run through the examples provided above. The first common theme is that we are typically unaware when we use these well-documented cognitive heuristics, which means that they often operate unconsciously. In fact there are so many of these biases that we cannot even keep them all in mind so as to consistently monitor if we are using them or not. Short-term memory is limited by Miller’s magic number of 7 ± 2. The 95 biases reviewed or referenced above far exceed this capacity. So unless we keep a heuristic checklist in front of us at all times, and check it frequently, we may well unconsciously use one or more of them.
The second common theme is that cognitive and memory heuristics reflect functional properties of our neural networks just as optical illusions do. This explains why heuristics are reflexive and automatic. It also explains why education and insight into these heuristics cannot free us from them. We are left with recognizing and compensating for them. Recognition here means acceptance of unconscious processing as common and pervasive, given the approximately 100 ways in which it intrudes on our ability to think rationally.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cognitive-biases
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 03, 2018, 01:38:08 PM
Why did Michelle Diskin Bate's & Barry George choose Mark Williams Thomas to "re-investiagate" the murder of Jill Dando?

July 2016
"Ironically, Mark Williams-Thomas became a TV personality by savaging the reputations of other small-screen stars
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jul/14/the-investigator-the-ex-cop-taking-over-tv-mark-williams-thomas-simon-cowell
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 03, 2018, 02:41:19 PM
Would be interesting to learn WHY Mark Williams Thomas resigned from the police force?
This officer resigned before she was sacked https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-46075215

"Det Supt Scott Cannon, who sat on the panel, said: "In order to maintain public confidence and trust, it's vital information held by the police is accessed only for policing purposes

......The Essex Police misconduct hearing found she had breached the standards of professional behaviour relating to confidentially, orders and instructions. 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 12:34:06 PM
July 2016
"Ironically, Mark Williams-Thomas became a TV personality by savaging the reputations of other small-screen stars
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jul/14/the-investigator-the-ex-cop-taking-over-tv-mark-williams-thomas-simon-cowell

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6350331/Self-promoting-TV-detective-obsessed-celebrity-sex-abusers-helped-police-ruin-lives.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 12:38:59 PM
I wonder when Jill Dando's murder investigation will be re opened?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 01:19:57 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/status/1058827120779104256?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 01:32:07 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jimmy-savile-investigator-claims-two-13510102
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
http://www.mediamasters.fm/mark-williams-thomas/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 04:20:05 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06pn49r

Is it me or does she sound aggrieved for having not been told during the time she campaigned for her brother that he would not be guaranteed compensation?

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 05:59:17 PM
Michelle Bates writes and I quote,

"Justice is never served by the conviction of the innocent" by Michelle Bates on the 31st Anniversary of the tragedies (Jerrmy Bamber case)

"Becoming aware of a breaking-news story I began to listen in more closely. A siege was taking place at a farmhouse in England. The broadcaster relayed that five people were inside and there was great fear for their safety. As the story unfolded it became apparent that this was an older couple. A farmer and retired Magistrate, Nevill Bamber and his wife, June; their daughter, Sheila, and her six year old twin sons. Jeremy, their son, was outside with police who were trying to communicate with someone inside the house who had been seen pacing back and forth in front of an upstairs window and carrying a firearm. The reporter said that police were reluctant to get too close to the house for fear of causing that person to become more agitated, thereby, escalating the danger to the family. I watched for an hour or so but there was no resolution and, heavily pregnant, I became exhausted and had to go off to bed.
No one was seen pacing back and forth carrying a firearm - this is a lie
Awaking early I was anxious for news
, hopefully of a rescue, so I put the News on immediately. The siege was over, police had stormed the house and five bodies had been found inside. I was heartbroken, a whole family! My heart went out to the young man who had waited all night long with the police for news of his family; this was not what he wanted to hear.
There was no live TV coverage during the time Bamber was outside the farmhouse with the police - another lie 
My own child was born a few days later and I became engrossed in motherhood. It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?

Our justice system is predicated on the ‘presumption of innocence’ and also on ‘beyond reasonable doubt,’ but there is so much doubt surrounding this conviction that this case must be looked into again, urgently. The CCRC and the Court of Appeal seem to be reluctant to do this, and the police, for their part, have been withholding evidence from the defendant. It will cost thousands of pounds to, again, take them to court to force them to hand over the papers and forensic results that the court has already told them they must do. They have also effectively ‘locked down’ documents in the case under a PII* order; what is there to hide? Meanwhile, a man is fighting a conviction for multiple murders that there is no proof he committed. Surely this is not the justice system his father, a Magistrate was proud to be a part of? https://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html

Barry George had his conviction quashed. He's not been paid awarded compensation because he's not innocent enough. A judge concluded a jury properly directed may have come to a different conclusion; words to that effect

Michelle Bates is claiming Jeremy Bamber is innocent, she says the same about her brother?

Mark Williams Thomas was involved in both the Bamber and George cases, one via a TV documentary the other a newspaper series.

Who should we believe? I do not believe Michelle Bates!

Furthermore, Michael Mansfield QC was misled in relation to the Simon Hall case. He could have been misled in relation to Barry George. Personality disordered individuals can be extremely convincing.

Mrs Bates further claims in the Bamber case:  "Dead people don’t walk (and two only became one at marriage!). Sheila alive, even when police stormed the building. Tragic murder/suicide. 😢 https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/917077719749361664

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo#fauxfullscreen
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 10:23:19 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

And no mention of Barry George bouncing to tell his sister about the baptist church in Fulham?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on November 04, 2018, 11:22:23 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6350331/Self-promoting-TV-detective-obsessed-celebrity-sex-abusers-helped-police-ruin-lives.html

Further http://barthsnotes.com/2018/11/04/man-who-accused-cliff-richard-was-already-known-as-a-fantasist-following-leon-brittan-investigation/#comment-1987204
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on December 03, 2018, 07:05:31 PM
"His high profile since Downing was released on bail last February has brought him around 500 letters from others claiming to be victims of injustice. He has been asked to help with the case of Barry George, jailed for murdering Jill Dando. "I've been given names about who did the Dando murder, and it's not the man they have," he says. "I reckon I could get him off quite easily. You see, barristers are not investigative journalists. They'll go through the proper channels - but the people who give you the golden information are not the Rotary Club members, they're in the underworld, and these people feel an injustice has been done. Michael Mansfield (the human rights QC) won't find out who did it by cycling up and down on his bike in London."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/police-say-next-week-will-be-dangerous-6304394.html


"The Simon Cowell tag had amused me; it was real wannabe stuff. A dead man was mixing past and present like the Ghost of Popstars past. I was intrigued to find that exactly the same analogy had been made by the dead Terry Thornton in 2014! The dead man has given other interviews!

ROCK legend Joe Cocker became a sixties superstar after taking advice from the SPIRIT WORLD during a spooky Ouija session, his former Midland manager reveals today. Pop entrepreneur Terry Thornton, who lives in Bakewell, Derbyshire - first met the young Cocker when he was setting up a nightclub in the gravel-voiced singer's Sheffield hometown. "He was a quiet young lad who was starting to make a name for himself in pubs and working men's clubs," recalls Thornton, who has been dubbed the Simon Cowell of the 1960s.

It seems Terry has been giving interviews from the grave for quite some time! Unlike my Savile piece from 2015, this piece from 2014 had a reporters credit

In truth Don Hale being behind this deceit came as no surprise since all of this ghost-hunting had really got started because I had happened across the book authored by Don Hale, in which Don himself had explained that Terry had died in 2010. Quite how Don explains the interviews he’s been having with Terry since then, I have no idea. However it does go some way to expose the state British journalism is in, in the 21st Century. It turns out that Don Hale is the new David Icke. He is a thwarted pro-footballer… And just like David Icke, Don began his journalist career with the BBC after injury cut short his soccer days!! Incredible coincidences!

2003:
It was always my ambition to become either a reporter or a pro soccer player and just before I left school, I was offered a professional contract to become an apprentice player with Bury FC. I played for about six years for Bury, Blackburn Rovers and many other clubs but became injured and used to sit in the stands and watch the team play. That was very boring until I became friendly with the BBC radio commentator who sat next to me… I was then asked to join the BBC…
http://www.mysteryone.com/interview.php?ID=651

Later on in the interview we find Terry. It’s in response to a question about Don’s book about Joe Cocker.

I got his ex manager out of jail about three years ago. He was a guy called Terry Thornton. Another of my famous miscarriage cases. I didn't know he was into rock at the time but as some reward for my work he let me write about his involvement with Cocker and other pop/rock stars such as The New Faces, Rod Stewart, Cream, Eric Capton, and a host of others. I have the book and can send it to you if you like?
 
So, there we have the connection. A famous “miscarriage” case? I googled in vain to discover what this case might be. There didn’t seem all that much on the internet but I did work out that Terry Thornton had been sent to prison for life for the attempted murder of a woman named Eileen Caulton. Once I had her name, the story began to fall into my lap. A 5lb Nail Bomb was delivered as a parcel to Eileen in August 1989. It blew off her left arm and the one-inch nails smashed into her entire body… She spent two weeks in Intensive Care; both of her legs were broken – the bomb seared 30% of her skin off. Her sight and hearing were permanently damaged too. I eventually found that the case had been famous enough back in the 1990’s to make one of those part-works advertised on TV sometimes. This series was called Real Crimes. A build-your-own magazine was published by Midsummer Books Ltd in 1993

http://jimcannotfixthis.blogspot.com/2015/04/a-victim-law-ghost-writer.html


http://barthsnotes.com/2017/09/10/edward-heath-sex-abuse-allegations-media-circus-continues/


"Another story about Leon Brittan and a dossier comes from Don Hale, who by his own account is himself part of the wider story. Hale used to be editor of the Bury Messenger, and last summer he claimed (or, as some hacks prefer, “revealed”) that he had been given “an incendiary dossier… by long-serving Labour politician Barbara Castle
http://barthsnotes.com/2015/02/01/some-notes-on-leon-brittan-geoffrey-dickens-and-the-media/



"Now, the third question: did Barry George do it? Yes, I think so, but then perhaps you think I would. People close to the victims of a crime might be expected to latch on to any suspect to get some sort of closure. Actually, the opposite is true.

It matters far more to me that they have the right man than it does to almost anyone who reads this; it would be appalling if Jill's killer were still on the loose. But I was convinced it was Barry George long before I heard his name. From day one I said that whoever did it was suffering from a personality disorder. The conspiracy theories (everything from Mafia hitmen to Serb gunmen) were so dismally incoherent as to be laughable. All my years of experience on Crimewatch taught me that if it wasn't Barry George it would be someone very much like him.

One thing is for sure. The defence is always more vociferous at this stage than the prosecution. The police and the CPS have to bite their tongues and Jill's family is far too dignified to get involved. The result is a one-sided presentation of the "facts" and, in the past few days, I have heard wild allegations that the police "fitted up the local village idiot", which is deeply prejudiced, ill-informed and insulting to all concerned
.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3633091/Past-it-Its-hardly-a-fair-cop....html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on December 04, 2018, 06:24:40 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/status/1058827120779104256?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

 *&^^&
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on December 04, 2018, 06:26:27 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jimmy-savile-investigator-claims-two-13510102

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=65&func=view&catid=2&id=88196

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,65/func,view/catid,2/id,182402/

https://trollexposure.wordpress.com/2018/11/10/microscope-on-the-investigators-response/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on December 22, 2018, 02:38:28 PM
http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=65&func=view&catid=2&id=88196

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,65/func,view/catid,2/id,182402/

https://trollexposure.wordpress.com/2018/11/10/microscope-on-the-investigators-response/

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,64/?g2_itemId=7100&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 25, 2019, 07:15:31 AM
I believe Jill Dando was killed by Serbians. Her murder came within weeks of the murder of Slavko Curuvija. Both were news reporters who criticised the Serbian regime.

"A widow of one of their alleged victims said Miss Dando's execution in April 1999 has all the hallmarks of her own husband's murder, which was two weeks earlier."

"The cartridge case had crimp marks on it of the type often found in Soviet Union and its satellite countries, according to Mr Mead."


Serbian police claim their is a link to Radomir Markovic, Milan Radonjic, Ratko Romic and Miroslav Kurak for Jill Dando's murders.

(https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/glJk9lLaHR0cDovL29jZG4uZXUvaW1hZ2VzL3B1bHNjbXMvTVRJN01EQV8vZWM5YjNiOTEzNWViYzQxMTdlOGZkOGI4NmM4ZmM4NzcuanBnkZMCzQLkAIGhMAE)

“The cartridge bore ‘crimping’ scratches where a pointed tool had been used, possibly to tighten its grip on the bullet. This was not the weapon of a professional assassin. Nor was the single shot the modus operandi of someone who had been hired to make a certain kill

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6845491/Dramatic-interview-criminal-investigated-Jill-Dandos-murder.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 25, 2019, 07:37:17 AM
“A man has been fatally stabbed on the road where television presenter Jill Dando was shot on her doorstep nearly two decades ago.

Police were called to Gowan Avenue in Fulham, London, at 12.27am yesterday after reports of a fight. The victim, a 29-year-old engineering graduate named locally as Nathaniel, was pronounced dead minutes later.

The attack came nearly 20 years after former Crimewatch reporter Dando was killed by a single bullet fired at her head as she reached the front door of her house, on 26 April 1999.

“The murder, in the quiet, leafy street where the cherry trees were in blossom yesterday, remains one of the most high-profile unsolved murders,” says The Times.

Barry George, a convicted sex offender, was found guilty of killing the 37-year-old presenter in July 2001, but was acquitted six years later after gun residue found on him during the forensic investigation was discredited.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/94727/who-killed-jill-dando-six-theories-behind-her-murder

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 17
That poor man, his poor family. How does this help them? Yes people...I AM INCENSED! Cheap shots at an innocent, disabled man
@thetimes
 Mention Jill, yes, that’s relevant. Barry is not relevant and he is not a cash cow!


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 19
My new flyer...use the email address below to book me to speak with your group. 🤗
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 25, 2019, 09:30:39 PM

"..........Barry George, a convicted sex offender, was found guilty of killing the 37-year-old presenter in July 2001, but was acquitted six years later after gun residue found on him during the forensic investigation was discredited.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/94727/who-killed-jill-dando-six-theories-behind-her-murder

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 17
That poor man, his poor family. How does this help them? Yes people...I AM INCENSED! Cheap shots at an innocent, disabled man
@thetimes
 Mention Jill, yes, that’s relevant. Barry is not relevant and he is not a cash cow!


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
8h
My response to the awful articles in the DM. Tomorrow they intimate they will rip Barry George to shreds:
Tomorrow they are going to tell you about Barry George since his release? Why? "If there was anything newsworthy about him in the past ten years it would have been reported!"


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
"This is just another vilification of a wrongfully convicted, vulnerable adult.

If someone wants the REAL truth about the Dando investigation they should read his sister's book - Stand Against Injustice, the untold story of Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder..."
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1110171935898505216

Poppy Ann Miller™
@PoppyMeze
Replying to
@Michelle_Diskin
Would expect no better from gutter tabloids. Ignore it unless you want to make a stand in some way, like a formal complaint, if so, I'm with you. DLTBGYD x
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 12:05:57 AM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
8h
My response to the awful articles in the DM. Tomorrow they intimate they will rip Barry George to shreds:
Tomorrow they are going to tell you about Barry George since his release? Why? "If there was anything newsworthy about him in the past ten years it would have been reported!"


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
"This is just another vilification of a wrongfully convicted, vulnerable adult.

If someone wants the REAL truth about the Dando investigation they should read his sister's book - Stand Against Injustice, the untold story of Barry George, wrongly convicted of the murder..."
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1110171935898505216

Poppy Ann Miller™
@PoppyMeze
Replying to
@Michelle_Diskin
Would expect no better from gutter tabloids. Ignore it unless you want to make a stand in some way, like a formal complaint, if so, I'm with you. DLTBGYD x

”How dare they say I'm 'not innocent enough' for compensation: Cleared Jill Dando murder suspect Barry George's indignant words in an extraordinary encounter

“He is a shambling, dishevelled bear of a man, barely contained by a dark suit and overcoat. As Barry George talks in a low, throaty growl, the breeze picks at his white shirt tails and red tie.

Plus ca change. George had been dressed in identical fashion on the morning Jill Dando was murdered, he had suggested in the police witness statement he gave almost a year later.

Twenty years have passed since the killing. But in the troubled world of the only man ever charged with the crime — George was convicted at the Old Bailey then acquitted at a second trial — time appears to have stood still.

Now, though, he cuts a pathetic figure rather than one of any menace, as was alleged by police and prosecutors at the time. In these circumstances, why should he not today be considered the ‘other victim’ in Britain’s most sensational modern murder case?".............

Barry Michael George was born in West London in April 1960 to a special police constable father and an Irish cleaner mother..........

“.........There would be other personas and more baseless yarns to impress those he met, particularly young women.

He liked to say he had been a member of the SAS. Indeed, he assumed the identity of Thomas Palmer, one of the SAS soldiers who had taken part in the 1980 Iranian embassy siege, and the Falklands War two years later.

This fantasy reflected his interest in the military and guns.

In December 1981, he enlisted in the Territorial Army. By the time he was rejected the following November he had attended a number of training days in which he was taught to maintain and shoot assault rifles and machine guns.

During this period, George also joined the Kensington and Chelsea Pistol Club as a probationary member. He attended on eight occasions before his application was not accepted.

His Walter Mitty stories and attempts at derring-do masked a darker side to George’s personality. In 1981, he was charged with indecent assault after grabbing a woman’s breasts in a car park. ‘Paul Gadd, unemployed entertainer,’ was given a three-month prison sentence, suspended for two years. He was acquitted of assaulting another woman, an actress, on the same day.

The following year he sexually assaulted a modern languages undergraduate having followed her to the door of her mother’s home.

At the Old Bailey under the name ‘Steven Majors’, the 22-year-old George pleaded guilty to attempted rape. He was jailed for 33 months, of which he served 18.

Soon after his release he was found by police hiding in bushes in the grounds of Kensington Palace, then the home of Princess Diana. George was wearing a combat jacket and carrying a 12-inch hunting knife and 50 feet of rope. Somewhat surprisingly, he was released uncharged.

In Stand Against Injustice, the book Barry George’s sister Michelle Diskin Bates has written about her brother’s case, she described these paramilitary escapades: ‘Barry’s interest in guns and all things military was born of our family’s long association with the Armed Forces. He’d have loved to be able to follow his dad’s footsteps into the Army or the Royal Marines, he wanted to excel, but even the Territorial Army had to let him go because of his disabilities.’......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6849355/Cleared-Jill-Dando-murder-suspect-Barry-Georges-indignant-words-extraordinary-encounter.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 12:26:14 AM
”How dare they say I'm 'not innocent enough' for compensation: Cleared Jill Dando murder suspect Barry George's indignant words in an extraordinary encounter

“He is a shambling, dishevelled bear of a man, barely contained by a dark suit and overcoat. As Barry George talks in a low, throaty growl, the breeze picks at his white shirt tails and red tie.

Plus ca change. George had been dressed in identical fashion on the morning Jill Dando was murdered, he had suggested in the police witness statement he gave almost a year later.

Twenty years have passed since the killing. But in the troubled world of the only man ever charged with the crime — George was convicted at the Old Bailey then acquitted at a second trial — time appears to have stood still.

Now, though, he cuts a pathetic figure rather than one of any menace, as was alleged by police and prosecutors at the time. In these circumstances, why should he not today be considered the ‘other victim’ in Britain’s most sensational modern murder case?".............

Barry Michael George was born in West London in April 1960 to a special police constable father and an Irish cleaner mother..........

“.........There would be other personas and more baseless yarns to impress those he met, particularly young women.

He liked to say he had been a member of the SAS. Indeed, he assumed the identity of Thomas Palmer, one of the SAS soldiers who had taken part in the 1980 Iranian embassy siege, and the Falklands War two years later.

This fantasy reflected his interest in the military and guns.

In December 1981, he enlisted in the Territorial Army. By the time he was rejected the following November he had attended a number of training days in which he was taught to maintain and shoot assault rifles and machine guns.

During this period, George also joined the Kensington and Chelsea Pistol Club as a probationary member. He attended on eight occasions before his application was not accepted.

His Walter Mitty stories and attempts at derring-do masked a darker side to George’s personality. In 1981, he was charged with indecent assault after grabbing a woman’s breasts in a car park. ‘Paul Gadd, unemployed entertainer,’ was given a three-month prison sentence, suspended for two years. He was acquitted of assaulting another woman, an actress, on the same day.

The following year he sexually assaulted a modern languages undergraduate having followed her to the door of her mother’s home.

At the Old Bailey under the name ‘Steven Majors’, the 22-year-old George pleaded guilty to attempted rape. He was jailed for 33 months, of which he served 18.

Soon after his release he was found by police hiding in bushes in the grounds of Kensington Palace, then the home of Princess Diana. George was wearing a combat jacket and carrying a 12-inch hunting knife and 50 feet of rope. Somewhat surprisingly, he was released uncharged.

In Stand Against Injustice, the book Barry George’s sister Michelle Diskin Bates has written about her brother’s case, she described these paramilitary escapades: ‘Barry’s interest in guns and all things military was born of our family’s long association with the Armed Forces. He’d have loved to be able to follow his dad’s footsteps into the Army or the Royal Marines, he wanted to excel, but even the Territorial Army had to let him go because of his disabilities.’......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6849355/Cleared-Jill-Dando-murder-suspect-Barry-Georges-indignant-words-extraordinary-encounter.html

“..............Now let us move on to the spring of 2000. In his witness statement, given on April 11, George said that on the day of the murder he had been at home all morning before going to a disability charity’s office at 12.30pm-12.45pm. Jill was shot at around 11.30am that day.

It was an alibi, but not a strong one.

Of his attire he said ‘I wore either my dark suit with a white shirt and a red tie and a black overcoat or… jeans.’

When police subsequently searched George’s flat in Crookham Road they found what they thought was an evidential goldmine.

Among the piles of clutter and rubbish were scores of rolls of undeveloped film. These contained 2,248 photographs of 419 young women, largely taken on the streets of West London. George had stalked them, taking pictures surreptitiously and trying to discover where they lived.

Often he would approach his target and try to engage in conversation, or ask her out for a drink. When rebuffed he could become verbally aggressive or simply ignore requests to leave them alone. Some were told ‘I know where you live’.

The Mail can reveal that some 98 women would later come forward to allege they were harassed by George. Some were left with deep psychological scars.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 01:14:05 AM

Jim Newton-Smith
@LifeinBiteSize
·
11h
Replying to
@Michelle_Diskin
What on earth does the DM hope to achieve by this?
1
1

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
11h
Revenue! He is still a cash-cow 😪


Interesting, especially in terms of psychological projection!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 01:46:44 AM
”How dare they say I'm 'not innocent enough' for compensation: Cleared Jill Dando murder suspect Barry George's indignant words in an extraordinary encounter

“He is a shambling, dishevelled bear of a man, barely contained by a dark suit and overcoat. As Barry George talks in a low, throaty growl, the breeze picks at his white shirt tails and red tie.

Plus ca change. George had been dressed in identical fashion on the morning Jill Dando was murdered, he had suggested in the police witness statement he gave almost a year later.

Twenty years have passed since the killing. But in the troubled world of the only man ever charged with the crime — George was convicted at the Old Bailey then acquitted at a second trial — time appears to have stood still.

Now, though, he cuts a pathetic figure rather than one of any menace, as was alleged by police and prosecutors at the time. In these circumstances, why should he not today be considered the ‘other victim’ in Britain’s most sensational modern murder case?".............

Barry Michael George was born in West London in April 1960 to a special police constable father and an Irish cleaner mother..........

“.........There would be other personas and more baseless yarns to impress those he met, particularly young women.

He liked to say he had been a member of the SAS. Indeed, he assumed the identity of Thomas Palmer, one of the SAS soldiers who had taken part in the 1980 Iranian embassy siege, and the Falklands War two years later.

This fantasy reflected his interest in the military and guns.

In December 1981, he enlisted in the Territorial Army. By the time he was rejected the following November he had attended a number of training days in which he was taught to maintain and shoot assault rifles and machine guns.

During this period, George also joined the Kensington and Chelsea Pistol Club as a probationary member. He attended on eight occasions before his application was not accepted.

His Walter Mitty stories and attempts at derring-do masked a darker side to George’s personality. In 1981, he was charged with indecent assault after grabbing a woman’s breasts in a car park. ‘Paul Gadd, unemployed entertainer,’ was given a three-month prison sentence, suspended for two years. He was acquitted of assaulting another woman, an actress, on the same day.

The following year he sexually assaulted a modern languages undergraduate having followed her to the door of her mother’s home.

At the Old Bailey under the name ‘Steven Majors’, the 22-year-old George pleaded guilty to attempted rape. He was jailed for 33 months, of which he served 18.

Soon after his release he was found by police hiding in bushes in the grounds of Kensington Palace, then the home of Princess Diana. George was wearing a combat jacket and carrying a 12-inch hunting knife and 50 feet of rope. Somewhat surprisingly, he was released uncharged.

In Stand Against Injustice, the book Barry George’s sister Michelle Diskin Bates has written about her brother’s case, she described these paramilitary escapades: ‘Barry’s interest in guns and all things military was born of our family’s long association with the Armed Forces. He’d have loved to be able to follow his dad’s footsteps into the Army or the Royal Marines [/u], he wanted to excel, but even the Territorial Army had to let him go because of his disabilities.’......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6849355/Cleared-Jill-Dando-murder-suspect-Barry-Georges-indignant-words-extraordinary-encounter.html

“Born on April 15 1960, at Hammersmith hospital, Barry Michael George was the youngest of his parents three children, and the only son. Alfred, his father, was a lorry driver and special constable in the Metropolitan police. He had met George's mother Margaret in London and married her in Brook Green, Hammersmith, in July 1954, when she was 18
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/03/jilldando.media5


?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 02:20:13 AM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

?

According to the recently released video footage in the DM of her brother roller skating over 4 double decker buses he hurt his leg (fractured femur) and back (dislocated spine)?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 07:48:27 AM
“Born on April 15 1960, at Hammersmith hospital, Barry Michael George was the youngest of his parents three children, and the only son. Alfred, his father, was a lorry driver and special constable in the Metropolitan police. He had met George's mother Margaret in London and married her in Brook Green, Hammersmith, in July 1954, when she was 18
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/03/jilldando.media5


?

“George often had "funny turns", but staff were not sure whether these episodes were real or feigned. Doctors examined him on two occasions between 1974 and 1976 and concluded there was nothing wrong.

It is now accepted that George does suffer from a mild form of epilepsy, though the experts are divided about its effects. Some believe George deliberately exaggerates the condition, others claim it has caused "severe brain dysfunction
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 07:53:46 AM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

In December 1981, he enlisted in the Territorial Army. By the time he was rejected the following November he had attended a number of training days in which he was taught to maintain and shoot assault rifles and machine guns.

During this period, George also joined the Kensington and Chelsea Pistol Club as a probationary member. He attended on eight occasions before his application was not accepted.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6849355/Cleared-Jill-Dando-murder-suspect-Barry-Georges-indignant-words-extraordinary-encounter.html

”He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 10:28:56 AM
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Appears to me the media are finally seeing the wood through the trees regarding the numerous inconsistencies, contradictions and damn right lies regarding Barry George!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 11:28:45 AM
“A man has been fatally stabbed on the road where television presenter Jill Dando was shot on her doorstep nearly two decades ago.

Police were called to Gowan Avenue in Fulham, London, at 12.27am yesterday after reports of a fight. The victim, a 29-year-old engineering graduate named locally as Nathaniel, was pronounced dead minutes later.

The attack came nearly 20 years after former Crimewatch reporter Dando was killed by a single bullet fired at her head as she reached the front door of her house, on 26 April 1999.

“The murder, in the quiet, leafy street where the cherry trees were in blossom yesterday, remains one of the most high-profile unsolved murders,” says The Times.

Barry George, a convicted sex offender, was found guilty of killing the 37-year-old presenter in July 2001, but was acquitted six years later after gun residue found on him during the forensic investigation was discredited.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/94727/who-killed-jill-dando-six-theories-behind-her-murder

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 17
That poor man, his poor family. How does this help them? Yes people...I AM INCENSED! Cheap shots at an innocent, disabled man
@thetimes
 Mention Jill, yes, that’s relevant. Barry is not relevant and he is not a cash cow!


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 19
My new flyer...use the email address below to book me to speak with your group. 🤗
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Mar 17
Did they HAVE to drag Barry into this and be so disparaging? He’s no more obsessed than anyone else 🤬🤬🤬 It seems Barry is still fair game 😢 19 years on

https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1107384527750602755


“The best liars are natural manipulators,"
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 26, 2019, 11:37:30 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eeYhz2zsvXo


“Barry George mingled with mourners in the quiet street where hours earlier he had shot dead Jill Dando - and even brought his own flowers.

Saying he felt "concern and remorse" at her murder, he laid a bouquet at the cordon police had set up around the crime scene
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-57542/The-evidence-Barry-George.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 09:08:52 AM
29th March 2019

“The detective who led the inquiry into Jill Dando's murder has told the BBC her case will never be solved.
Hamish Campbell told a documentary to mark 20 years since the newsreader's shooting: "Do I think somebody will come back to court? Probably not, no."

His team arrested Barry George in 2000, one year after Dando, 37, was killed on her doorstep in Fulham, west London.
Mr George was convicted of murder and spent eight years in jail, before being acquitted at a retrial and released.

The Murder of Jill Dando will be shown on BBC One at 21:00 BST on Tuesday 2 April.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47742654


“Mr Campbell and the Metropolitan Police faced criticism after Mr George was cleared, but maintained that they had never used the convicted sex offender as a scapegoat.

He said: 'There's always been the view, in the media and elsewhere, that the police chose Barry George somehow as a scapegoat and for want of a better word, a patsy, for the investigation team because we couldn't solve it.

'That is somewhat insulting and completely untrue, and wrong.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6862889/Met-officer-investigated-Jill-Dando-case-claims-killer-unlikely-face-justice.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 05:05:03 PM
29th March 2019

“The detective who led the inquiry into Jill Dando's murder has told the BBC her case will never be solved.
Hamish Campbell told a documentary to mark 20 years since the newsreader's shooting: "Do I think somebody will come back to court? Probably not, no."

His team arrested Barry George in 2000, one year after Dando, 37, was killed on her doorstep in Fulham, west London.
Mr George was convicted of murder and spent eight years in jail, before being acquitted at a retrial and released.

The Murder of Jill Dando will be shown on BBC One at 21:00 BST on Tuesday 2 April.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47742654


“Mr Campbell and the Metropolitan Police faced criticism after Mr George was cleared, but maintained that they had never used the convicted sex offender as a scapegoat.

He said: 'There's always been the view, in the media and elsewhere, that the police chose Barry George somehow as a scapegoat and for want of a better word, a patsy, for the investigation team because we couldn't solve it.

'That is somewhat insulting and completely untrue, and wrong.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6862889/Met-officer-investigated-Jill-Dando-case-claims-killer-unlikely-face-justice.html

“Since George's release, no one else has been convicted of Jill's murder. Asked in the documentary whether he believes anyone will ever be charged with the journalist's murder,

Detective Campbell responded: "Do I think somebody will come back to court, probably not. [Will somebody new come to court?] No... no."
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a26971858/jill-dando-murder/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 10:49:17 PM
"As the inquiry developed, as the picture built, you 12 [jurors] all now understand why it is the prosecution say, and they maintain, that this man in court, Barry George, and no other, murdered Jill Dando," said Laidlaw.

"When you put the evidence together, when you look collectively at the component parts of it, each arising independently, then all this cannot possibly be explained merely by unhappy coincidence."

Laidlaw said the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann was possibly the only case to have received more press attention than Dando's murder.

He said identifying the culprit had been "demanding and exacting," with investigators having to fend off the distractions of "countless theories" about what had happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jul/24/ukcrime.television

"That is not to say that we lack any confidence in this case or the assertion we make against this defendant that he is Miss Dando's assailant," said Laidlaw.

"We do not lack any confidence in that assertion."
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 10:53:02 PM
“The man accused of murdering the TV presenter Jill Dando bought a pair of inline skates so that he could follow women, the Old Bailey heard today.

Barry George, 48, denies murdering BBC presenter Jill Dando, 37, who was shot through the head as she arrived home in Fulham, west London, in April 1999.

A witness told the court that George, who lived 500 yards from Dando, would follow women home from a local park and, if they boarded a bus, he would stalk the bus wearing the blades.

Susan Coombe said she was a fellow resident of a hostel in Kensington, west London, with George for six months in 1985, when he was calling himself Tom Palmer.

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"Tom would tell us that he used to follow girls through the park, mainly Holland Park," she said.

"He bought himself some Rollerblades. He would follow them on the Rollerblades.

"Tom would follow girls from the park. If he liked a girl, he would follow her home in the afternoon or evening. If they got on buses, he would follow them on Rollerblades."

She said he would also try to chat up women in two other London parks, Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens.
"If he liked them he would go back early the following morning and stand outside the house to see if they lived alone or had a partner."

She said George would then approach them at a different time and strike up conversations by saying: "I know you - I know where you live".

The prosecution has alleged that the defendant had a fascination with female celebrities and guns and that he stalked women. Some 4,000 undeveloped photos of women were found at his flat.

Coombe said George told her he had been in the SAS but having initially believed him she changed her mind. She said he would discuss guns on a regular basis.

"He said he went to a store in the North End Road, Fulham, which used to sell guns and knives," she said.
"He said he used to have a friend from the army who dismantled guns and put them back together again."

George had boasted of collecting guns and one night produced two guns. He gave one to another resident and kept hold of what looked like a rifle.

"They were going around the room pretending to shoot people," said Coombe.

On another occasion, she went into his room and he produced a "small, shiny silver gun" from a box. He also had army fatigues and a balaclava, she said
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/12/ukcrime2
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 11:22:47 PM
“By summer 1980, when he was 20, he was emerging as a 'character' in West London.

At Kingston Crown Court he was fined £15 for impersonating a police officer.

Then a picture of him with a trophy appeared in his local newspaper when he duped the Fulham Chronicle into believing that he had won the British Karate Championships by breaking 47 tiles with his feet.

He used the name Paul Gadd - real name of the now disgraced pop star Gary Glitter. Readers were told he was 'a singer with the band Xanadu and a session musician with the Electric Light Orchestra'.

Another newspaper, the West London Observer, exposed him as a sham, but he would not be put off.

His need to impress now had him describing himself as a cousin of Jeff Lynne, lead singer with ELO.

Step by step, George was becoming more than a harmless eccentric. Within weeks, he was in the paper again, this time on charges of indecent assault after grabbing a woman's breasts in a car park.

As 'Paul Gadd, unemployed entertainer' he was given a three-month sentence, suspended for two years.

He was acquitted of assaulting another woman, actress June Zeller, on the same day.

Soon afterwards he entered his 'Steve Majors' period when he posed as a stuntman of the same name and made a ludicrous attempt to speed down a ramp on roller skates and leap across four double-decker buses.

He clipped the fourth bus and landed in a heap, fracturing his femur and dislocating his spine. But he got up grinning and managed to skate about before being carted off to hospital.

The following year, 1982, George tried to rape a modern languages student he met near Turnham Green Tube station in Chiswick, West London. He was not caught for another year.

By now a new interest had come into George's life - guns.

He had joined the Territorial Army, training with the 10th Battalion Parachute Regiment at White City. He enlisted under the name S F Majors and completed 29 days' training.

The training did not cover pistols but late in 1982, while still with the TA, he joined Kensington and Chelsea Pistol Club as a probationary member, named Steve Majors.

He completed eight periods of pistol shooting, but in September that year his application for full membership was refused.

In November the TA also rejected him as unsuitable, but in his fantasy world instead of shedding his Army uniform he elevated himself to the elite corps of fighting soldiers, the SAS.

He told whoever would listen that he was Thomas Palmer, the hero who led the storming of the Iranian embassy in London in 1980.

Now came the Kensington Palace incident in January 1983, when he was discovered in the grounds with the Rambo-size hunting knife and simply sent home.

Although Diana was away that evening, the significance of the incident to police later investigating Jill Dando's killing cannot be exaggerated: George, they now became convinced, was undoubtedly a threat to the public.

Within weeks of being released without charge, he was identified as the man who assaulted the student in Turnham Green.

Questioned by police, he broke down and confessed and in March 1983, under the name Steven Majors, George, then 22, was jailed for 33 months at the Old Bailey for attempted rape.

He served 18 months and was released without treatment or supervision. No one knew of his arrest carrying a knife near the walls of Kensington Palace.

By now guns and the Army were a fixation. He wore khakis in public, bought specialist military magazines, and showed acquaintances guns he kept in his flat.

He built up a huge collection of magazines, photos of the famous and articles from newspapers that police were later to discover.

George had been through several personality phases, and more were to come, but the Army and guns were to remain a constant.

In 1986 he mimicked his SAS hero Thomas Palmer's finest hour by staging a bizarre 'raid' on the home of a friend from school called David Dobbins.

The Dobbins family lived in South Kensington and one evening there was a knock on the door. It was George, in combat gear and balaclava, and he charged in holding a pistol and fired a shot.

When the panic subsided they realised it was a blank.

By now he was increasingly filling his jobless days by pestering women in Holland Park in West London. He carried flowers and a 12in hunting knife tucked in the leg pocket of his Army trousers.

One female acquaintance, Susan Coombe, said George (whom she knew as Tom Palmer) would try to 'chat them up or he would follow them to see where they lived'.

She said: 'If a girl he approached was polite and made conversation he would fall in love, but if they were not interested he would get angry.'

At the time George was living in council-paid accommodation at the Stanhope Gardens Hotel in West London, where he was renowned for romancing Oriental girls because white women usually rejected him.

One night at the hotel, a girl was heard screaming for help in George's room. A burly Scottish resident went to the rescue and forced George to open the door.

Out fled a naked Japanese girl, carrying her clothes, with blood running down her legs. The police were not called.

George's stalking habits continued when he moved to his dingy council flat in Crookham Road, Fulham.

His odd behaviour frequently came to the attention of police, who compiled an intelligence report on him. One entry described him as an 'idiot - but a dangerous one', while another said he was 'a persistent pathological-liar'.

Later George would harass language students of the London Study Centre in Fulham Road.

Surprisingly, perhaps, one of them, Itsuko Toide, from Tokyo, became a girlfriend and on May 2, 1989, she married him at Fulham register office. The marriage was a disaster and she fled back to Japan.

After she left, George changed his name for the last time. Now he became Barry Bulsara, taking the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury.

He took the fantasy to extraordinary lengths, insisting he was not only Mercury's cousin but also a follower of Zoroastrianism, Mercury's religion.

Mercury's death in 1991 was a golden opportunity for George to immerse himself in the singer's life. He visited Mercury's home in Kensington so often, making sinister approaches to female fans, that the Queen International Fan Club called the police.

George would save up for months to hire a white limousine in which he would drive up to the house on the anniversary of the singer's death, dressed like his idol in tight vest and leather jacket.

He would hand out business cards to women on which was printed 'Bulsara Productions Inc: Directors Barry Bulsara and Frederick Bulsara Mercury'.

And he consulted a plastic surgeon with a view to being made to look like his idol.

He had two consultations at the New You clinic on Fulham Broadway with surgeon Riad Roomi. Mr Roomi told him he would carry out the work only if George obtained the approval of a psychiatrist. The surgery was never carried out.

His supposed link with Mercury was now his main gambit when accosting girls, or when running up huge bills on premium-rate porn chat-lines on his mother's phone.

It was about this time that he was questioned over the murder of Rachel Nickell, stabbed to death on Wimbledon Common in July 1992.

Broadmoor patient was recently charged with the murder.

By now Jill Dando was living in Gowan Avenue, only 500 yards from George's flat and four doors from the doctors' surgery he attended.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1040722/Rambo-karate-kid-rock-star-The-fantasy-life-Barry-George.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 11:29:35 PM
“By the late 1980s Mr George had developed his routine of relentlessly following women, often on his roller skates, and drawing up lists of addresses, descriptions and car registration numbers for those he had followed.

During his trial, diplomat Claudia Casey, 40, sobbed as she described having to jump into a passing car after having her arm grabbed by a man she believes was George in Fulham in 1995. Another witness, Angela Gordon, claimed he appeared on her doorstep and asked to kiss her.

They and the hundreds of women who were unwittingly stalked by Mr George will be hoping he is now housed a very long way away from them
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2484893/Jill-Dando-verdict-What-now-for-Barry-George.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 11:43:10 PM
“Two witnesses saw the killer leave the scene of the crime but neither identified him as Mr George.

Their descriptions of the killer loosely fitted Mr George, so they did not completely exclude him.

The only witnesses who did identify Mr George were those who saw him hanging around near Jill Dando’s home some hours before she was murdered.
Thus, the Crown’s task was to conflate the identifications of the pre-kill witnesses with the descriptions of the two scene-of-the-crime witnesses.

The Crown did not rely on a Tommy Cooper “just like that” wave of the hand to do this but established a backdrop to the killing.

First, it claimed Miss Dando was not murdered by a Serbian hitman, an ex-boyfriend, a vengeful criminal convicted by her Crimewatch work, an obsessive and jealous fan, a thief, a crazed junkie. She was murdered by a man with an irrational motive that would appear senseless to anyone normal. A fantasist — they said Mr George was a “fantasist”, a believer in crackpot theories.

Second, they suggested the killer was a loner, not a professional killer or criminal but with knowledge of pistols, and had access to amateurish kinds of weapons (converted blank-firers, or reactivated deactivated guns). This, they said, fitted Mr George.

Third, the Crown’s case was that the killer would have had to have some experience in following and observing women without their being aware.

They said Mr George’s hobby was to track, stalk and sometimes attack women in the Fulham area and there was a mass of evidence.

Fourth, as Miss Dando was not followed when driving to her home that morning (conclusively shown by the CCTV from numerous vantage points) and as her visits to her home were unpredictable (she was living at her fiancé’s house) the killer would have had to hang around her home in Gowan Avenue.

The jury appeared to accept from their questions after retirement that Mr George was in Gowan Avenue the Monday morning that she was killed.

There were four witnesses who identified Mr George as being in Gowan Avenue that morning.
The first, Susan Mayes, was rock solid on identifying him at being opposite Miss Dando’s house at 7am.
The jury was directed by the judge to look at her evidence first and only if they believed it to move on to the other witnesses.

The jury came out on their second day of retirement and asked to see the video of her identification of Mr George and to listen to the evidence she gave in the witness box.

They went back to their deliberations and came out, three hours later, and asked the judge to go through the evidence of the descriptions given by the two scene-of-the-crime witnesses.

As their directions were that they must acquit if they were not sure about Miss Mayes identifying Mr George, this must have meant they had agreed he was in Gowan Avenue that morning.

They then came out at noon on Friday with a question about the other three witnesses who made “partial identifications” of Mr George.

The judge directed that they could use video evidence of the partial identifications as support for Susan Mayes’s identification but they could “not convert two or more partial identifications into a positive identification”. An hour later they reached their verdict.

Crown counsel Jonathon Laidlaw’s last comment in his closing speech was “We suggest that this is no coincidence.” If they did think about the coincidences, the jury clearly did not think they defied common sense.

On the other hand, they may not have seen the subtlety of the Crown’s case. Who knows, except them?
But it doesn’t matter, the die is cast and cannot be un-cast.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2491147/Analysis-Twists-and-turns-that-enabled-Barry-George-to-walk-free.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 11:45:57 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
1h
In the light of the forthcoming BBC documentary next Tuesday, I thought it opportune to highlight my book, the TRUE story of our family and the flawed investigation into Jill Dando’s murder, 20 years ago.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 29, 2019, 11:56:37 PM
In a nutshell - I don' think much of manipulative individuals who use underhanded tactics in a quite obvious attempt to muddy the waters Eleanor.

Are you familiar with the term "gas lighting?"

I've read many of Barry George's sisters projections in her so called fight to stand for justice but I no longer buy into it. It stopped the day Simon Hall confessed. The niggles I had with regards the personalities of some of those people I once associated with kept niggling away at me - bit like David Jessel said in his comment about "the confession."

I'm driven by truth and justice. I have no agenda. I've learned much since I was conned and I've had to get to the bottom of how and why I was conned.

I've also learned a lot about criminal law and the loopholes used by some in their attempts to give themselves an air of plausible deniability (which equates to a lack of accountability).

!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 30, 2019, 09:05:57 AM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
1h
In the light of the forthcoming BBC documentary next Tuesday, I thought it opportune to highlight my book, the TRUE story of our family and the flawed investigation into Jill Dando’s murder, 20 years ago.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
1h
Yes...this is also in my book! My mother was targeted the same way.
‘A PHONE HACKING HIT? How Jill Dando was Tracked to her Doorstep’ – Byline Times
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/03/29/a-phone-hacking-hit-how-jill-dando-was-tracked-to-her-doorstep/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 30, 2019, 11:54:20 AM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
1h
Yes...this is also in my book! My mother was targeted the same way.
‘A PHONE HACKING HIT? How Jill Dando was Tracked to her Doorstep’ – Byline Times
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/03/29/a-phone-hacking-hit-how-jill-dando-was-tracked-to-her-doorstep/


Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
50m
Why oh why do they keep saying...’stash of photos’ found in Barry’s flat...THEY WERE UNDEVELOPED ROLLS OF FILM!!!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8724070/who-killed-jill-dando-serbian-mafia-paedophile-ring/#comments
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 30, 2019, 11:56:24 AM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
50m
Why oh why do they keep saying...’stash of photos’ found in Barry’s flat...THEY WERE UNDEVELOPED ROLLS OF FILM!!!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8724070/who-killed-jill-dando-serbian-mafia-paedophile-ring/#comments


How many photos did Barry George take and of whom?

How long did it take him to take these photos?

What lengths and planning did he go to in order to take the photos in the first place?

Seems these facts are lost on those intent on attempting to downplay the nature of his obsessive stalking.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on March 30, 2019, 12:34:41 PM

Jim Newton-Smith
@LifeinBiteSize
·
11h
Replying to
@Michelle_Diskin
What on earth does the DM hope to achieve by this?
1
1

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
11h
Revenue! He is still a cash-cow 😪


Interesting, especially in terms of psychological projection!

Who’s cash cow is he?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2019, 08:18:52 PM
Video of Barry George’s attempt to roller skate over 4 double decker buses

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1890544/Video-Barry-George-attempts-rollerskate-four-double-decker-buses.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2019, 08:21:18 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
8h
Replying to
@DrSusanYoung1
Barry George is on trial again
@DrSusanYoung1
. Of course no one else will be brought to justice...no one is investigating!
✴️Police/media, stop referring to autism in derogatory term...oddball, loner, weirdo! You offend many families with this discrimination, not just Barry.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2019, 08:22:40 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
8h
Replying to
@DrSusanYoung1
Barry George is on trial again
@DrSusanYoung1
. Of course no one else will be brought to justice...no one is investigating!
✴️Police/media, stop referring to autism in derogatory term...oddball, loner, weirdo! You offend many families with this discrimination, not just Barry.

Susan Young’s reputation is at stake so she had a need to defend Barry George.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 02, 2019, 08:23:39 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Replying to
@ccrcupdate
Not so much interesting for Barry, as scary! He’s been battling for justice for 19yrs, then the officer who was responsible for his wrongful conviction is given a platform on BBC to say ‘no one else was being sought for this crime’ how else would he be feeling? Disgraceful!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 09:03:35 AM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Replying to
@ccrcupdate
Not so much interesting for Barry, as scary! He’s been battling for justice for 19yrs, then the officer who was responsible for his wrongful conviction is given a platform on BBC to say ‘no one else was being sought for this crime’ how else would he be feeling? Disgraceful!

I’d like to hear firsthand how Barry George ‘feels’ as opposed to his sisters opinion of what she thinks he ‘feels.’
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:02:56 PM

Mark Williams-Thomas
@mwilliamsthomas
Just watched Dando programme - so ex DCI Campbell basically is convinced Barry George is guilty & has just said as much  . When the full details are known about the investigation and case it’s clear that Barry was not responsible at all .
11:05 PM · Apr 2, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
13
 Retweets
70
 Likes

Geraint Cynan
@cerddcynan
·
12h
Replying to
@mwilliamsthomas
Graceless individual. Bombastic and unrepentant. As opposed to the magnificent decorum displayed by Dando family.
1
1

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
12h
This is just betraying the Dando family further, they’ve been lied to for 19years. Not to mention us 😢
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/status/1113200690321612800
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:05:37 PM

Mark Williams-Thomas
@mwilliamsthomas
Just watched Dando programme - so ex DCI Campbell basically is convinced Barry George is guilty & has just said as much  . When the full details are known about the investigation and case it’s clear that Barry was not responsible at all .
11:05 PM · Apr 2, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
13
 Retweets
70
 Likes

Geraint Cynan
@cerddcynan
·
12h
Replying to
@mwilliamsthomas
Graceless individual. Bombastic and unrepentant. As opposed to the magnificent decorum displayed by Dando family.
1
1

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
12h
This is just betraying the Dando family further, they’ve been lied to for 19years. Not to mention us 😢
https://mobile.twitter.com/mwilliamsthomas/status/1113200690321612800

http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,65/func,view/catid,2/id,187606/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:21:42 PM
Video of Barry George’s attempt to roller skate over 4 double decker buses

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1890544/Video-Barry-George-attempts-rollerskate-four-double-decker-buses.html

There’s a photograph in this link https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/local-news/they-put-gun-head-acquitted-1793222
where Barry George is clearly seen imitating holding and pointing a gun.

(https://i2-prod.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/incoming/article1793509.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_Barry-George-Jill-Dando-MURDER.jpg)
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
“George often had "funny turns", but staff were not sure whether these episodes were real or feigned. Doctors examined him on two occasions between 1974 and 1976 and concluded there was nothing wrong.

It is now accepted that George does suffer from a mild form of epilepsy, though the experts are divided about its effects. Some believe George deliberately exaggerates the condition, others claim it has caused "severe brain dysfunction


“One specific meaning of the term religious abuse refers to psychological manipulation and harm inflicted on a person by using the teachings of their religion. This is perpetrated by members of the same or similar faith, and includes the use of a position of authority within the religion.[2] It is most often directed at children and emotionally vulnerable adults, and motivations behind such abuse vary, but can be either well-intentioned or malicious.[3]

Even well-intentioned religious abuse can have long-term psychological consequences, such as the victim developing phobias or long-term depression. They may have a sense of shame that persists even after they leave the religion. A person can also be manipulated into avoiding a beneficial action (such as a medical treatment) or to engage in a harmful behavior.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:32:54 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Well, we were not disappointed, were we? Not informed of content, not given ‘right of reply’, ex cop telling outright lies...par for the course, really 😡 Disgraceful behaviour from the BBC and Crimewatch. Yes, this was made by Crimewatch personnel.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1113367458042253312


Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-Against-Injustice-Michelle-Diskin/dp/1910786241

”PiXeLWRiTeR
5.0 out of 5 starsI wish this book was in the fiction section.
9 December 2018
Format: Paperback
Having read the introduction, this book seemed set up to be a rollercoaster ride of a novel, mixing the crime and thriller genres with an uncomfortable hint of horror as well.

I normally head for the sci-fi section of a bookshop, but something about fighting injustice struck a chord. I had no idea what an experience it would be to read this book, to follow and share (in a very small way!) the path taken by the author and others in the book.

This story feels almost like fiction anyway - the real-life landscape revealed in this book is such an eye-opener I was almost hoping the last page would be the standard disclaimer that there was no real or intended reference to real people, names or events.

Read and learn. . .
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 12:38:57 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Well, we were not disappointed, were we? Not informed of content, not given ‘right of reply’, ex cop telling outright lies...par for the course, really  Disgraceful behaviour from the BBC and Crimewatch. Yes, this was made by Crimewatch personnel.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1113367458042253312


Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-Against-Injustice-Michelle-Diskin/dp/1910786241

”PiXeLWRiTeR
5.0 out of 5 starsI wish this book was in the fiction section.
9 December 2018
Format: Paperback
Having read the introduction, this book seemed set up to be a rollercoaster ride of a novel, mixing the crime and thriller genres with an uncomfortable hint of horror as well.

I normally head for the sci-fi section of a bookshop, but something about fighting injustice struck a chord. I had no idea what an experience it would be to read this book, to follow and share (in a very small way!) the path taken by the author and others in the book.

This story feels almost like fiction anyway - the real-life landscape revealed in this book is such an eye-opener I was almost hoping the last page would be the standard disclaimer that there was no real or intended reference to real people, names or events.

Read and learn. . .


“I first met Michelle Bates when I interviewed her at my Spiritual Health Conference and then again when I interviewed her on my TV chat show. Even though I knew her story when I read this book I could not put it down. This is an amazing story of love and faith whilst pursuing justice for her brother. What a story! You have to read this book! --Nancy Goudie, Author and Motivational Speaker; Founder/CEO of ngm and Founder of Nancy Goudie's Spiritual Health Weekends.

Written with great integrity and without even a hint of self-pity or hatred towards, or vengeance against, those responsible for causing her brother's wrongful conviction or who played a part in preventing its overturn or are currently refusing him compensation.... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-Against-Injustice-Michelle-Diskin/dp/1910786241
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Replying to
@ccrcupdate
Not so much interesting for Barry, as scary! He’s been battling for justice for 19yrs, then the officer who was responsible for his wrongful conviction is given a platform on BBC to say ‘no one else was being sought for this crime’ how else would he be feeling? Disgraceful!

“Notable by its absence was an interview with Barry George, who spent eight years in jail for her murder before having his conviction overturned in 2008.
Explaining why, a BBC spokesperson said: "Barry George's arrest, conviction, appeal, retrial and acquittal are addressed in the film with archive footage to recount the events.
"It was not necessary to have a present day interview with Mr George as this film set out to tell the wider context of Jill's death and the fact her murder remains unsolved.
"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 01:20:20 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
2h
Well, we were not disappointed, were we? Not informed of content, not given ‘right of reply’, ex cop telling outright lies...par for the course, really 😡 Disgraceful behaviour from the BBC and Crimewatch. Yes, this was made by Crimewatch personnel.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1113367458042253312

Who is telling outright lies?

"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 07:28:37 PM
“One specific meaning of the term religious abuse refers to psychological manipulation and harm inflicted on a person by using the teachings of their religion. This is perpetrated by members of the same or similar faith, and includes the use of a position of authority within the religion.[2] It is most often directed at children and emotionally vulnerable adults, and motivations behind such abuse vary, but can be either well-intentioned or malicious.[3]

Even well-intentioned religious abuse can have long-term psychological consequences, such as the victim developing phobias or long-term depression. They may have a sense of shame that persists even after they leave the religion. A person can also be manipulated into avoiding a beneficial action (such as a medical treatment) or to engage in a harmful behavior.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
.
God is so good... we have been showered with love today, we are not discouraged. Thank you twitter friends.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1113505527244443648/photo/1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 03, 2019, 07:48:41 PM
29th March 2019

“The detective who led the inquiry into Jill Dando's murder has told the BBC her case will never be solved.
Hamish Campbell told a documentary to mark 20 years since the newsreader's shooting: "Do I think somebody will come back to court? Probably not, no."

His team arrested Barry George in 2000, one year after Dando, 37, was killed on her doorstep in Fulham, west London.
Mr George was convicted of murder and spent eight years in jail, before being acquitted at a retrial and released.

The Murder of Jill Dando will be shown on BBC One at 21:00 BST on Tuesday 2 April.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47742654


“Mr Campbell and the Metropolitan Police faced criticism after Mr George was cleared, but maintained that they had never used the convicted sex offender as a scapegoat.

He said: 'There's always been the view, in the media and elsewhere, that the police chose Barry George somehow as a scapegoat and for want of a better word, a patsy, for the investigation team because we couldn't solve it.

'That is somewhat insulting and completely untrue, and wrong.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6862889/Met-officer-investigated-Jill-Dando-case-claims-killer-unlikely-face-justice.html

“Standing outside the Royal Courts of Justice in London with her brother, Michelle Diskin, from Ballincollig, Co Cork, told reporters:

“There never was any viable evidence against Barry.”

The appeals court upheld an earlier ruling by the British high court that Mr George was “not innocent enough to be compensated”.

This whole case from Apr 2000 until today has been a smoke and mirrors exercise designed to placate a worried public, and give the impression that justice had been done.

“Well neither the Dando family, nor our family, has seen any justice in the past 13 years.”

Ms Diskin said: “We are extremely disappointed with the decision and will need to go away and regroup to decide what to do next. We cannot let this go unchallenged.

“Serving eight years in prison for someone else’s crime is not acceptable.

“Everything was taken from this man when the police started what we believe to be a malicious prosecution.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/family-of-barry-george-to-fight-travesty-of-justice-236443.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 06, 2019, 07:06:24 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Poppy Ann Miller™
@PoppyMeze
·
Apr 4
I've studied various aspects of the law including Forensic Psychology but it doesn't take an expert to know - just by looking at the MO of Dando's murder that it had to be carried out by an expert - a contract killing and the culprit is connected to someone known to her.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin



Strewth  *&^^&
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 12:02:29 PM
A recent BBC documentary about the murder of Jill Dando:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

What has always struck me as odd about this case is the fact Jill Dando spent very little time at her house.  Instead spending most of the time at her fiancees house in Chiswick where she spent the night before she was murdered.  Then when she left his house that morning she didn't go straight to her house but went shopping.  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence that she was being followed.  Later that day she was due to attend a bridal shop for a fitting. 

How would anyone, other than those in the know through Jill, her fiancee and those close to her know her movements?  The one exception being immediate neighbours.

Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

The docu shows yet another completely male dominated police investigation so once again we only see the case investigated through the male eye!

Many of the participants ask why would anyone want to murder Jill Dando?  Jealousy?  Here was a woman who appeared to have it all and if the perp had some unhealthy interest in Alan Farthing or was a jealous ex then I would imagine if you were that way inclined it would only be exacerbated by seeing Jill's face on high profile tv programmes like News, Holiday and Crimewatch.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:36:26 PM
A recent BBC documentary about the murder of Jill Dando:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

What has always struck me as odd about this case is the fact Jill Dando spent very little time at her house.  Instead spending most of the time at her fiancees house in Chiswick where she spent the night before she was murdered.  Then when she left his house that morning she didn't go straight to her house but went shopping.  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence that she was being followed.  Later that day she was due to attend a bridal shop for a fitting. 

How would anyone, other than those in the know through Jill, her fiancee and those close to her know her movements?  The one exception being immediate neighbours.

An opportunist/stalker wouldn’t need to know her movements!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 12:39:19 PM
Here's an old article by Geoffrey Levy:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244910/Why-murder-ex-fianc-Jill-Dando-haunts-man-deliver-Kate-Middletons-baby.html

It appears the emphasis was on looking at Jill's ex's/obsessives rather than Alan's?!

What a misogynist:

"There were five men who figured seriously in Jill Dando’s life - not an excessive number for a modern, single woman of 37". 

Would he honestly write that comment if he was referring to a male? 

'There were five women who figured seriously in Bill Blogg's life - not an excessive number for a modern, single male of 37'. 

And how would anyone know the exact nature of these relationships excluding the participants?  Any what about anyone who was actually acquainted with Jill or Alan but not intimately involved emotionally/sexually but had an unhealthy interest/obsession?   
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:39:25 PM
Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

To which “jealous ex” do you refer?



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:41:06 PM

Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

... or someone who had “desires” on Jill Dando from afar?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 12:44:12 PM
An opportunist/stalker wouldn’t need to know her movements!

As Jill's cousin said in the docu for this to have happened all the stars would need to align. 

The statistical chances of an opportunist stalker happening upon Jill at her home address when her movements were random and unknown who just happened to have a loaded firearm on his/her person would imo be so statistically unlikely I would rule it out. 

She had not mentioned to anyone about being stalked.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:44:17 PM
Here's an old article by Geoffrey Levy:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244910/Why-murder-ex-fianc-Jill-Dando-haunts-man-deliver-Kate-Middletons-baby.html

It appears the emphasis was on looking at Jill's ex's/obsessives rather than Alan's?!

Because it appears this way doesn’t make it so.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
... or someone who had “desires” on Jill Dando from afar?

But how would anyone not acquainted with her or those closely involved with her know she was going to be at her home address when she turned up? 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:53:58 PM
As Jill's cousin said in the docu for this to have happened all the stars would need to align. 

The statistical chances of an opportunist stalker happening upon Jill at her home address when her movements were random and unknown who just happened to have a loaded firearm on his/her person would imo be so statistically unlikely I would rule it out. 


In your opinion....


“Jill Dando was killed by a loner who had an obsession with female presenters and stalked women...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime


Based on the recent documentary it appears to me the police still believe in the above theory.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 12:56:52 PM
But how would anyone not acquainted with her or those closely involved with her know she was going to be at her home address when she turned up?

Why did they need to know when she turned up?

Could they not have laid in wait or loitered, for example?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
Because it appears this way doesn’t make it so.

I would hope investigators did look at Alan Farthing's ex's and anyone who had an unhealthy interest in him but I can't find any news articles to this effect? 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 01:02:37 PM
Why did they need to know when she turned up?

Could they not have laid in wait or loitered, for example?

Well she spent most of her time at Alan Farthing's house in Chiswick,  Gowan Avenue isn't the sort of place you could sit in a car or loiter for any length of time unnoticed.  How long could anyone wait around before they would need to eat/drink/use the loo/get chilly/bored/need to sleep/wash/get cold feet?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
I would hope investigators did look at Alan Farthing's ex's and anyone who had an unhealthy interest in him but I can't find any news articles to this effect?

You could always approach Barry George’s sister directly (via twitter for example) and ask her.

I too would hope investigators looked at each and every avenue and again imo i imagine they did.

“Jonathan Laidlaw QC, prosecuting, said Dando's death had been the result of the actions of "a loner, a man acting alone with no rational motive to kill"
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:08:18 PM
As Jill's cousin said in the docu for this to have happened all the stars would need to align. 

The statistical chances of an opportunist stalker happening upon Jill at her home address when her movements were random and unknown who just happened to have a loaded firearm on his/her person would imo be so statistically unlikely I would rule it out. 

She had not mentioned to anyone about being stalked.

Sadly it’s not as unusual as you appear to think for some people to walk the streets with a concealed weapon
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:10:21 PM
Well she spent most of her time at Alan Farthing's house in Chiswick,  Gowan Avenue isn't the sort of place you could sit in a car or loiter for any length of time unnoticed.  How long could anyone wait around before they would need to eat/drink/use the loo/get chilly/bored/need to sleep/wash/get cold feet?

So you agree then it makes sense that the person who murdered her most probably lived a few hundred yards away?

“George lived half a mile from the home of the 37-year-old BBC News, Crimewatch and Holiday presenter. He would allegedly approach women in the area to try to find out their addresses
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:13:49 PM
In your opinion....


“Jill Dando was killed by a loner who had an obsession with female presenters and stalked women...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime


Based on the recent documentary it appears to me the police still believe in the above theory.

I would be interested to learn what the items of military equipment were that Barry George ordered 2 weeks before the murder?

“"...........and had ordered "a number of items of military equipment" in April 1999, just two weeks before Dando died.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:19:17 PM
Well she spent most of her time at Alan Farthing's house in Chiswick,  Gowan Avenue isn't the sort of place you could sit in a car or loiter for any length of time unnoticed.  How long could anyone wait around before they would need to eat/drink/use the loo/get chilly/bored/need to sleep/wash/get cold feet?

"Some of the witnesses provide evidence that Barry George, having discovered where they lived, also spent time waiting in the area and observing their addresses; on occasions, that he was present outside watching when they arrived back at their homes." https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/09/ukcrime
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 01:37:00 PM
A recent BBC documentary about the murder of Jill Dando:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

What has always struck me as odd about this case is the fact Jill Dando spent very little time at her house.  Instead spending most of the time at her fiancees house in Chiswick where she spent the night before she was murdered.  Then when she left his house that morning she didn't go straight to her house but went shopping.  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence that she was being followed.  Later that day she was due to attend a bridal shop for a fitting. 

How would anyone, other than those in the know through Jill, her fiancee and those close to her know her movements?  The one exception being immediate neighbours.

Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

The docu shows yet another completely male dominated police investigation so once again we only see the case investigated through the male eye!

Many of the participants ask why would anyone want to murder Jill Dando?  Jealousy?  Here was a woman who appeared to have it all and if the perp had some unhealthy interest in Alan Farthing or was a jealous ex then I would imagine if you were that way inclined it would only be exacerbated by seeing Jill's face on high profile tv programmes like News, Holiday and Crimewatch.

Btw can you explain what you mean by “we can only see the case investigated through the male eye?

It appears to me the police still appear to believe Barry George was responsible for Miss Dando’s murder.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 03:29:55 PM
So you agree then it makes sense that the person who murdered her most probably lived a few hundred yards away?

“George lived half a mile from the home of the 37-year-old BBC News, Crimewatch and Holiday presenter. He would allegedly approach women in the area to try to find out their addresses

Alan Farthing told the court Jill virtually lived at his house and that she only went back when she had an early morning start and to collect mail.  On the day in question she made Alan's breakfast at his house in Chiswick.  She then went shopping en route to her house in Fulham.  She then intended visiting a bridal shop for a fitting.  How would anyone other than those who were acquainted with her directly or indirectly through others or neighbours who could observe her arriving know she was going to turn up at the time she did on that particular day?  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence she was being followed.

Barry George lived 0.4 miles away in Crookham Road but he would not have been able to view Jill's house or her car arriving.

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CCrookham%20Rd,%20Fulham,%20London%20SW6,%20UK%7C%7C-0.205078%7C51.474645%7CtoNode=0%7CGowan%20Ave,%20Fulham,%20London%20SW6,%20UK%7C%7C-0.212113%7C51.476462

No one reported anyone loitering about in the weeks/days leading up to the murder.  On the day of the murder there were various conflicting sightings as there always are in these cases.  Jill had not reported anyone bothering her.   
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 05:27:14 PM
Alan Farthing told the court Jill virtually lived at his house and that she only went back when she had an early morning start and to collect mail.  On the day in question she made Alan's breakfast at his house in Chiswick.  She then went shopping en route to her house in Fulham.  She then intended visiting a bridal shop for a fitting.  How would anyone other than those who were acquainted with her directly or indirectly through others or neighbours who could observe her arriving know she was going to turn up at the time she did on that particular day?  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence she was being followed.

Barry George lived 0.4 miles away in Crookham Road but he would not have been able to view Jill's house or her car arriving.

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp#fromNode=0%7CCrookham%20Rd,%20Fulham,%20London%20SW6,%20UK%7C%7C-0.205078%7C51.474645%7CtoNode=0%7CGowan%20Ave,%20Fulham,%20London%20SW6,%20UK%7C%7C-0.212113%7C51.476462

No one reported anyone loitering about in the weeks/days leading up to the murder.  On the day of the murder there were various conflicting sightings as there always are in these cases.  Jill had not reported anyone bothering her.

0.4 miles is approximately 704 yards!
So you agree then it makes sense that the person who murdered her most probably lived a few hundred yards away?

“George lived half a mile from the home of the 37-year-old BBC News, Crimewatch and Holiday presenter. He would allegedly approach women in the area to try to find out their addresses

“Detectives investigating the killing became increasingly convinced Mr George was the gunman after they discovered he had followed numerous women and taken thousands of pictures of them.
But in an interview, Mr George insisted that at the time Miss Dando was murdered, he was following another woman after leaving a disability centre in Fulham.
Miss Dando was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, west London, at around 11.30am on April 26 1999.
Between 10.30am and 12.33pm on the day of the shooting, Mr George insisted, he was either at the centre or walking beside the woman.
"I walked with her for a bit and from her perspective, maybe it was unwanted attention. But she didn't make that clear," he said.
"It didn't seem like she was telling me to go away. If she'd told me to leave I'd have done so straight away.
"That was at 12.33pm. I know because just a minute before I'd made a call from my mobile to check how much credit I had left."
During three weeks of surveillance before his arrest Mr George was seen to approach 38 women and try to make conversation with them.
He said of his history of stalking: "I know I have done wrong in the past and if I could go back in time and change that I would.
" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2492744/Jill-Dando-murder-I-was-stalking-another-woman-at-the-time-says-Barry-George.html

Who said anything about George being able to view Miss Dando’s house or car from his address? By his own admission he was out and about in the area that day!

Because no one allegedly reported anyone loitering in the vicinity in the weeks/days leading up to the murder again doesn’t mean no one was.

There were “various conflicting sightings” on the day of the murder. Again doesn’t rule Barry George out.

And because Miss Dando hadn’t “reported anyone bothering her” again doesn’t mean this is a fact.

Did the 38 women who Barry George is said to have approached during 3 weeks of surveillance report anyone bothering them?

Was there CCTV is Gowen Avenue?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Myster on April 08, 2019, 06:49:55 PM
Maybe an extremely old snail was the culprit.   8(8-))
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Myster on April 08, 2019, 06:56:39 PM
... or maybe not.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 06:56:57 PM
A recent BBC documentary about the murder of Jill Dando:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

What has always struck me as odd about this case is the fact Jill Dando spent very little time at her house.  Instead spending most of the time at her fiancees house in Chiswick where she spent the night before she was murdered.  Then when she left his house that morning she didn't go straight to her house but went shopping.  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence that she was being followed.  Later that day she was due to attend a bridal shop for a fitting. 

How would anyone, other than those in the know through Jill, her fiancee and those close to her know her movements?  The one exception being immediate neighbours.

Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

The docu shows yet another completely male dominated police investigation so once again we only see the case investigated through the male eye!

Many of the participants ask why would anyone want to murder Jill Dando?  Jealousy?  Here was a woman who appeared to have it all and if the perp had some unhealthy interest in Alan Farthing or was a jealous ex then I would imagine if you were that way inclined it would only be exacerbated by seeing Jill's face on high profile tv programmes like News, Holiday and Crimewatch.

Many things stand out for me including the fact that,

“psychologist Dr Caroline Logan, called by the prosecution, said she believed George feigned illness in the hope of influencing the case.

And Barry George’s history proves he had form for having previously conned the criminal justice system.

I’m of the opinion that he could well be re-tried in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 06:58:15 PM
... or maybe not.  8((()*/

 8((()*/

Yep that appears to have been yet another auto correct blunder

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 07:04:29 PM
0.4 miles is approximately 704 yards!
“Detectives investigating the killing became increasingly convinced Mr George was the gunman after they discovered he had followed numerous women and taken thousands of pictures of them.
But in an interview, Mr George insisted that at the time Miss Dando was murdered, he was following another woman after leaving a disability centre in Fulham.
Miss Dando was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, west London, at around 11.30am on April 26 1999.
Between 10.30am and 12.33pm on the day of the shooting, Mr George insisted, he was either at the centre or walking beside the woman.
"I walked with her for a bit and from her perspective, maybe it was unwanted attention. But she didn't make that clear," he said.
"It didn't seem like she was telling me to go away. If she'd told me to leave I'd have done so straight away.
"That was at 12.33pm. I know because just a minute before I'd made a call from my mobile to check how much credit I had left."
During three weeks of surveillance before his arrest Mr George was seen to approach 38 women and try to make conversation with them.
He said of his history of stalking: "I know I have done wrong in the past and if I could go back in time and change that I would.
" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2492744/Jill-Dando-murder-I-was-stalking-another-woman-at-the-time-says-Barry-George.html

Who said anything about George being able to view Miss Dando’s house or car from his address? By his own admission he was out and about in the area that day!

Because no one allegedly reported anyone loitering in the vicinity in the weeks/days leading up to the murder again doesn’t mean no one was.

There were “various conflicting sightings” on the day of the murder. Again doesn’t rule Barry George out.

And because Miss Dando hadn’t “reported anyone bothering her” again doesn’t mean this is a fact.

Did the 38 women who Barry George is said to have approached during 3 weeks of surveillance report anyone bothering them?

Was there CCTV is Gowen Avenue?

As Jill's cousin said if Barry George was responsible all the stars had to align @ 45 mins in plus

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 07:12:55 PM
Alan Farthing told the court:

"He said the breakdown of his seven-year marriage had been very painful and that Ms Dando had been "supportive"."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-private-man-the-tv-celebrity-and-a-whirlwind-romance-9249829.html

"Very painful"?  Who ended the marriage Alan Farthing, Maria Farthing or was it by mutual consent? 

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
As Jill's cousin said if Barry George was responsible all the stars had to align @ 45 mins in plus

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

Not the smartest of idioms to use. Whether you believe Barry George to have murdered Miss Dando or A N Other - the stars were aligned *&^^&
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
Alan Farthing told the court:

"He said the breakdown of his seven-year marriage had been very painful and that Ms Dando had been "supportive"."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-private-man-the-tv-celebrity-and-a-whirlwind-romance-9249829.html

"Very painful"?  Who ended the marriage Alan Farthing, Maria Farthing or was it by mutual consent?

It appears to me you are choosing to under estimate the police investigations in this case?! Is there a reason for that; other than your apparent bias for male police officers?

Btw can you explain what you mean by “we can only see the case investigated through the male eye?


Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 07:51:34 PM
As Jill's cousin said if Barry George was responsible all the stars had to align @ 45 mins in plus

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

You could say the stars were aligned when he rollerskated over 4 double decker buses without killing himself.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1890544/Video-Barry-George-attempts-rollerskate-four-double-decker-buses.html

He was quite clearly a risk taker.

Incidentally during the video, one minute he claims to have never done anything like this before then he says he had been planning it for 4 years..??
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 08:15:15 PM
Not the smartest of idioms to use. Whether you believe Barry George to have murdered Miss Dando or A N Other - the stars were aligned *&^^&

I assume what was meant by this is that BG needed luck on his side.  Jill no longer lived at her house.  The house was on, or about to go on, the market.  She went back very infrequently on random days/times.  So if BG was responsible he must have struck lucky in that Jill pulled up in her car and he happened to be in the vicinity at the right time with a loaded firearm.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 08:26:31 PM
It appears to me you are choosing to under estimate the police investigations in this case?! Is there a reason for that; other than your apparent bias for male police officers?

I don't believe the best decisions are made by homogeneous groups of people.

In the case of Jill Dando the chief investigating officer, Hamish Campbell, makes silly comments such as the perp only had one bullet.  How could he possibly know the perp only had one bullet on his/her person?  How does the fact the bullet may have been tampered with in some way tell us the perp only had one bullet and was unprofessional?  He then refers to the perp leaving the signature bullet behind when in fact he was referring to the casing.  %56&

@ 21 mins in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 08:29:07 PM
I assume what was meant by this is that BG needed luck on his side.  Jill no longer lived at her house.  The house was on, or about to go on, the market.  She went back very infrequently on random days/times.  So if BG was responsible he must have struck lucky in that Jill pulled up in her car and he happened to be in the vicinity at the right time with a loaded firearm.

He lived in the vicinity! Approx 700 yards away!

And Barry George had previously been caught by police carrying a lethal weapon!

I’d say he was damn lucky he wasn’t arrested and charged when found in the grounds of Kensington palace wouldn’t you?!




Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 09:09:38 PM
He lived in the vicinity! Approx 700 yards away!

And Barry George had previously been caught by police carrying a lethal weapon!

I’d say he was damn lucky he wasn’t arrested and charged when found in the grounds of Kensington palace wouldn’t you?!

But he couldn't see Jill's car from his house.  Therefore if he was the perp he was lucky in that as he happened past Jill turned up. 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 09:10:55 PM
I wonder if the perp fitted a tracking device to her car or less likely mobile phone?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 09:18:54 PM
But he couldn't see Jill's car from his house.

No matter how many times you repeat it, the fact remains, by his own admission, he wasn’t in his house at the time of Miss Dando’s murder! He was apparently stalking another women?

However, based on his quite apparent and numerous contradictions it’s hard to believe anything he says.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 09:21:02 PM
I wonder if the perp fitted a tracking device to her car or less likely mobile phone?

The idiom “grasping at straws” springs to mind.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 08, 2019, 09:49:54 PM
The idiom “grasping at straws” springs to mind.

Jill no longer lived at Gowan Avenue.  She lived with her fiancee at Bedford Close, Chiswick.  She returned home briefly to collect something and did not even open her front door.  CCTV shows she was not being followed.  How did the perp know she was going to call at her home address on that day at that time?  If BG was responsible he got lucky. 

BG clearly had/has mental health issues but that doesn't mean he murdered Jill Dando. 

Imo the perp was either someone who was acquainted with Jill directly or indirectly through a.n other.  Or a neighbour who could watch out for her car turning up.  Or someone had decided they wanted to murder her and put a tracking device on her car or some personal possession and decided the less risky place to murder her was her home address.  What were the other options?  BBC - too much surveillance in the vicinity.  Alan Farthing's house at Bedford Close, Chiswick?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 10:09:37 PM
Imo the perp was either someone who was acquainted with Jill directly or indirectly through a.n other.  Or a neighbour who could watch out for her car turning up.  Or someone had decided they wanted to murder her and put a tracking device on her car or some personal possession and decided the less risky place to murder her was her home address.  What were the other options?  BBC - too much surveillance in the vicinity.  Alan Farthing's house at Bedford Close, Chiswick?

“I tend to think it wasn't a professional hit. I think you can rule out the Serbian hitman, which was a popular theory that was doing the rounds at the time,' said Nigel, whose sister was murdered aged 37. 'For what it's worth, my belief is that it was just a misguided individual on the street on the day, with a firearm, who knew where Jill lived, and who just 'struck lucky'.

Proceeding to explain his theory, Nigel revealed that Jill's lifestyle at the time meant she wasn't guaranteed to be in a certain place at any given time.

'I think it was a relatively random act [given] Jill's lifestyle at the time, as she wasn't regularly at home. You couldn't say that every 'Monday morning at 11 'o' clock she would be there.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6876353/Jill-Dandos-brother-believes-misguided-person-blame-murder-TWENTY-years-ago.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 10:19:33 PM
Jill no longer lived at Gowan Avenue.  She lived with her fiancee at Bedford Close, Chiswick.  She returned home briefly to collect something and did not even open her front door.  CCTV shows she was not being followed.  How did the perp know she was going to call at her home address on that day at that time?  If BG was responsible he got lucky. 

BG clearly had/has mental health issues but that doesn't mean he murdered Jill Dando. 

Imo the perp was either someone who was acquainted with Jill directly or indirectly through a.n other.  Or a neighbour who could watch out for her car turning up.  Or someone had decided they wanted to murder her and put a tracking device on her car or some personal possession and decided the less risky place to murder her was her home address.  What were the other options?  BBC - too much surveillance in the vicinity.  Alan Farthing's house at Bedford Close, Chiswick?

You can make things up in order to suit your theories and repeat yourself as much as you like, as previously stated, but it won’t change the facts nor bring your argument credibility!

I’m inclined to take note of Nigel Dando’s claims given he was her brother and would no doubt have access to a working set of case files, and more importantly, he wants nothing more than to find out why his sister was murdered.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 11:29:23 PM
Many things stand out for me including the fact that,

“psychologist Dr Caroline Logan, called by the prosecution, said she believed George feigned illness in the hope of influencing the case.

And Barry George’s history proves he had form for having previously conned the criminal justice system.

I’m of the opinion that he could well be re-tried in the not too distant future.

“........Dr Philip Joseph, another leading psychiatrist who was called by the prosecution, said George was "far more competent" than tests would suggest and capable of lying in police interviews. While some of his behaviour could be attributed to his epilepsy and cognitive impairment, his stalking of women appeared to stem from an "intense anger" caused by rejection, Dr Joseph said.

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/jill-dando-murder-trial-experts-were-split-on-barry-george-s-behaviour-1-1083223
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 11:37:02 PM
A recent BBC documentary about the murder of Jill Dando:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

What has always struck me as odd about this case is the fact Jill Dando spent very little time at her house.  Instead spending most of the time at her fiancees house in Chiswick where she spent the night before she was murdered.  Then when she left his house that morning she didn't go straight to her house but went shopping.  CCTV footage doesn't show any evidence that she was being followed.  Later that day she was due to attend a bridal shop for a fitting. 

How would anyone, other than those in the know through Jill, her fiancee and those close to her know her movements?  The one exception being immediate neighbours.

Jill and Alan were engaged in Feb 1999 and on the day of the murder she was due to attend a bridal shop.  Was the perp, either directly or through a hit person, a jealous ex or someone that had desires on Alan Farthing from afar? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Farthing

The docu shows yet another completely male dominated police investigation so once again we only see the case investigated through the male eye!

Many of the participants ask why would anyone want to murder Jill Dando?  Jealousy?  Here was a woman who appeared to have it all and if the perp had some unhealthy interest in Alan Farthing or was a jealous ex then I would imagine if you were that way inclined it would only be exacerbated by seeing Jill's face on high profile tv programmes like News, Holiday and Crimewatch.

In the early stages of the murder investigation, a lot of attention – at least in media terms – fell on men who had been romantically linked to Ms Dando.

“TV’s girl next door” had lived with television producer Bob Wheaton, 14 years her senior, before the relationship ended because according to some accounts he tired of her frequent absences as she travelled the world on assignment for the Holiday programme.
 
Then there had been Simon Basil, a young South African game warden with whom Ms Dando had enjoyed what she described as a “very Lady Chatterley” relationship.

Eventually, on a blind date, she “found the man I love”, the gynaecologist, Alan Farthing.  In early 1999, Ms Dando and Mr Farthing announced their engagement at a party attended by Sir Cliff Richard, Nick Ross and Anna Ford, with the first interview being secured by OK! Magazine.

But between these three publicised romances, there had been briefer flings, as police discovered when they started trawling through Ms Dando’s personal diaries

All the men who had romances with Ms Dando were cleared. 

So too was an allegedly besotted Russian crimelord who had been the subject of speculation that he had ordered Ms Dando’s killing because she had rejected his advances while filming for the Holiday programme in Cyprus.

The murder investigation provided a good excuse for those kinds of stories about a celebrity’s love life, but no credible evidence has ever emerged to suggest that anyone romantically linked to Ms Dando had anything to do with the murder
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jill-dando-murder-theories-what-happened-who-barry-george-bbc-documentary-a8851491.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 08, 2019, 11:51:49 PM
So if BG was responsible he must have struck lucky in that Jill pulled up in her car and he happened to be in the vicinity at the right time with a loaded firearm.

“Police believe George followed Miss Dando on several occasions before he killed her.

Eighteen months before Miss Dando was shot, George told a complete stranger that he had a famous friend, "a very special lady", and pointed out the road where Miss Dando lived.

"He had encountered her before, I am sure. It was not the first time he was in Gowan Avenue. There must have been an element of luck. He did not know she would turn up," said detective superintendent Hamish Campbell, who led the two year murder investigation.

George mingled with mourners in the quiet street where hours earlier he had shot Miss Dando - and even laid a bouquet at the cordon police had set up around the crime scene.

Det Supt Campbell believes George may have shot her because he felt confusion and anger, possibly sparked by her engagement to Mr Farthing.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/02/jilldando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 08:44:41 AM
No one reported anyone loitering about in the weeks/days leading up to the murder.  On the day of the murder there were various conflicting sightings as there always are in these cases. Jill had not reported anyone bothering her.

“Stalking victims can be targeted at least 100 times before they raise the alarm, a police expert has said.
Wiltshire's deputy chief constable Paul Mills, said academic studies indicate the delay is down to individual acts by a stalker seeming unimportant.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47838538
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 08:49:53 AM
As Jill's cousin said in the docu for this to have happened all the stars would need to align. 

The statistical chances of an opportunist stalker happening upon Jill at her home address when her movements were random and unknown who just happened to have a loaded firearm on his/her person would imo be so statistically unlikely I would rule it out.

She had not mentioned to anyone about being stalked.


Where are you getting your “statistics” from exactly? And what’s an opportunist stalker? I don’t recall Barry George being referred to in this way?



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 09:13:27 AM
“Stalking victims can be targeted at least 100 times before they raise the alarm, a police expert has said.
Wiltshire's deputy chief constable Paul Mills, said academic studies indicate the delay is down to individual acts by a stalker seeming unimportant.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47838538

“Profile of a stalker

Stalking is a crime of power and control. Stalkers tend to obsess about their victim. They may make many plans for the future that involve their victim.

Stalkers tend to have very weak social skills, and see nothing wrong with their behaviour.

Few stalkers see how their actions are hurting others, and they do not believe society’s rules apply to them.
They don’t believe they are threatening, intimidating, or even stalking someone.

Most stalkers see their actions simply as attempts to get closer to their target, help them, or to gain their love

Stalkers often ‘research’ their victims via public records for information or manipulating the victims’ family and friends.

Stalkers often obtain information from the victim’s friends, their workplace and from the victim’s family.

Romantically obsessed stalkers refuse to believe the victim does not want a relationship with them.

Stalking can be a form of retaliation because of some perceived slight. Indeed, many sexual harassment victims report being stalked in retaliation for reporting their harassers.

A stalker may be so subtle that the victim may not even aware that it is happening.

It is not always just the initial victim who is stalked. A stalker may also harass family, friends and fellow workers.
http://www.protectionagainststalking.org/what-is-stalking-2/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 09:18:29 AM
“........Dr Philip Joseph, another leading psychiatrist who was called by the prosecution, said George was "far more competent" than tests would suggest and capable of lying in police interviews. While some of his behaviour could be attributed to his epilepsy and cognitive impairment, his stalking of women appeared to stem from an "intense anger" caused by rejection, Dr Joseph said.

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/jill-dando-murder-trial-experts-were-split-on-barry-george-s-behaviour-1-1083223

Can anyone shed any light on this. Was Barry George successful or is he still under MAPPA?

“Mr George, 49, is seeking court orders to stop his movements being closely supervised by the Metropolitan Police and other agencies, including probation service and housing authorities.
Yesterday he accepted substantial undisclosed libel damages at London's Royal Courts of Justice over claims that he had pestered women he was obsessed with.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6833611/Barry-George-wants-police-off-his-back-court-hears.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 09, 2019, 09:19:41 AM
In the early stages of the murder investigation, a lot of attention – at least in media terms – fell on men who had been romantically linked to Ms Dando.

“TV’s girl next door” had lived with television producer Bob Wheaton, 14 years her senior, before the relationship ended because according to some accounts he tired of her frequent absences as she travelled the world on assignment for the Holiday programme.
 
Then there had been Simon Basil, a young South African game warden with whom Ms Dando had enjoyed what she described as a “very Lady Chatterley” relationship.

Eventually, on a blind date, she “found the man I love”, the gynaecologist, Alan Farthing.  In early 1999, Ms Dando and Mr Farthing announced their engagement at a party attended by Sir Cliff Richard, Nick Ross and Anna Ford, with the first interview being secured by OK! Magazine.

But between these three publicised romances, there had been briefer flings, as police discovered when they started trawling through Ms Dando’s personal diaries

All the men who had romances with Ms Dando were cleared. 

So too was an allegedly besotted Russian crimelord who had been the subject of speculation that he had ordered Ms Dando’s killing because she had rejected his advances while filming for the Holiday programme in Cyprus.

The murder investigation provided a good excuse for those kinds of stories about a celebrity’s love life, but no credible evidence has ever emerged to suggest that anyone romantically linked to Ms Dando had anything to do with the murder
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jill-dando-murder-theories-what-happened-who-barry-george-bbc-documentary-a8851491.html

But I can't find any evidence of the same exercise carried out on Alan Farthing?  He was/is a physically attractive man imo and many woman find medi doctors attractive even when the doctor is not particularly physically attractive.  Maybe someone was obsessed with him?  Either someone who had been in a relationship with him or someone who wanted to be in a relationship with him and Jill Dando was seen as standing in the way!?  The someone may have carried out the crime or hired a hit person to carry out the deed.

A Google of 'man stalked woman by fitting tracking device to car' throws up numerous cases.  I can't find any evidence that Jill's car was examined for a tracking device?  This sounds the most plausible explanation imo given cctv shows she was not being followed, she hardly visited her home and had not even entered the property before she was shot.

The fact the cartridge had been tampered with and may have had part of its contents removed to reduce the sound potentially shows some pre-planning.  I believe the bullet was hollow nosed which would be lethal with a close contact shot to the head.  A silencer may well have been difficult to obtain. 

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 09:23:24 AM
Where are you getting your “statistics” from exactly? And what’s an opportunist stalker? I don’t recall Barry George being referred to in this way?

I’m familiar with George being referred to as a “serial stalker.”

“.........that man is Barry George, the serial stalker and social misfit who served eight years for murdering Jill before being acquitted and freed last August after a second trial.

During the interview he gave (or rather sold for £80,000) to a down-market tabloid after his release, George insisted he was never fixated with the 37-year-old star, as the prosecution had alleged

Barry has mentioned visiting the grave a few times,' his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair told me this week.

'It's something he definitely wants to do. He just feels there's a connection between them  -  they've been tragically brought together.'

George has also discussed his plans with his confidante, his sister, Michelle Diskin.

'Barry spent eight years in jail for a murder he didn't do,' Mr Singh Clair said. 'He's become entwined with her life and she has played a huge part in his. He wants to exorcise Jill's ghost, and say: "I don't want you to think I hold any hard feelings against you."

'If he looks respectable and takes flowers, and perhaps goes with a friend or relative rather than slinking around on his own, then it wouldn't look too bad. It's his personal choice.'

Regrettably, it is. George's spokesman says he might request permission from Jill's family  -  and if so, he could receive a surprisingly favourable reaction.

For with remarkable magnanimity, Nigel Dando said that he would not object to the visit. 'It might give Mr George cause to ponder and reflect,' he said, when told of George's plans.

Mr Singh Clair is a Midlands-based freelance journalist who was enlisted by the Miscarriages of Justice Organisation (MOJO) to promote George's cause four years ago, when he was battling to overturn his murder conviction.

“In an angry email to me this week, Michelle Diskin claimed her brother was the victim of a media-driven plot designed to smear and intimidate him.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076331/Obsessed-visiting-Jill-Dandos-grave-acting-erratically-Barry-George-man-edge.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 09:47:12 AM
But I can't find any evidence of the same exercise carried out on Alan Farthing?  He was/is a physically attractive man imo and many woman find medi doctors attractive even when the doctor is not particularly physically attractive.  Maybe someone was obsessed with him?  Either someone who had been in a relationship with him or someone who wanted to be in a relationship with him and Jill Dando was seen as standing in the way!?  The someone may have carried out the crime or hired a hit person to carry out the deed.

A Google of 'man stalked woman by fitting tracking device to car' throws up numerous cases.  I can't find any evidence that Jill's car was examined for a tracking device?  This sounds the most plausible explanation imo given cctv shows she was not being followed, she hardly visited her home and had not even entered the property before she was shot.

The fact the cartridge had been tampered with and may have had part of its contents removed to reduce the sound potentially shows some pre-planning.  I believe the bullet was hollow nosed which would be lethal with a close contact shot to the head.  A silencer may well have been difficult to obtain.

Your circular reasoning doesn’t persuade me in the slightest Holly.



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 10:20:47 AM
I believe the bullet was hollow nosed which would be lethal with a close contact shot to the head.  A silencer may well have been difficult to obtain.

Why?

And to obtain by whom?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 09, 2019, 12:10:30 PM
But I can't find any evidence of the same exercise carried out on Alan Farthing?  He was/is a physically attractive man imo and many woman find medi doctors attractive even when the doctor is not particularly physically attractive.  Maybe someone was obsessed with him?  Either someone who had been in a relationship with him or someone who wanted to be in a relationship with him and Jill Dando was seen as standing in the way!?  The someone may have carried out the crime or hired a hit person to carry out the deed.

A Google of 'man stalked woman by fitting tracking device to car' throws up numerous cases.  I can't find any evidence that Jill's car was examined for a tracking device?  This sounds the most plausible explanation imo given cctv shows she was not being followed, she hardly visited her home and had not even entered the property before she was shot.

The fact the cartridge had been tampered with and may have had part of its contents removed to reduce the sound potentially shows some pre-planning.  I believe the bullet was hollow nosed which would be lethal with a close contact shot to the head.  A silencer may well have been difficult to obtain.

As might be expected Alan Farthing was a suspect in the early stages of the investigation but was quickly eliminated.

Anyway I found the following article which states all Ms Dando's former lovers were traced and interviewed.  Also Alan Farthing's patients were investigated as some had apparently developed a strong attachment to him.  But one by one they were eliminated.  However I still can't find any evidence that Alan Farthing's former wife, Maria, was interviewed/investigated and eliminated and/or any other women he may have had relationships with or were not patients but had some unhealthy interest in him.  Maybe Maria Farthing was interviewed/investigated and eliminated like the others.  Maybe she ended the marriage.  Maybe she was in a relationship with a.n other at the time and happy.  But maybe, just maybe, she was an aggrieved former wife who could not stand the thought of her former husband getting engaged and marrying Jill Dando.

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/dando-verdict-lines-of-investigation-ranged-from-serb-hitmen-to-jealous-lovers-9148193.html

Timeline:

- 1990 - Alan Farthing married Maria
- 1997 Dec - Alan Farthing is introduced to Jill Dando.  He was separated from his wife at the time.
- 1998 late - Alan and Maria Farthing divorce
- 1999 Feb - Alan Farthing and Jill Dando announce their engagement
- 1999 Apr - Jill Dando murdered
- 2000 Oct - Alan Farthing meets actress Helen Hobson at Cliff Richard's 60th Birthday and the pair start a relationship
- 2003 - Alan Farthing meets Dr Janet Stowell
- 2008 - Alan Farthing and Dr Janet Stowell marry
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 12:41:32 PM
As might be expected Alan Farthing was a suspect in the early stages of the investigation but was quickly eliminated.

Anyway I found the following article which states all Ms Dando's former lovers were traced and interviewed.

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/dando-verdict-lines-of-investigation-ranged-from-serb-hitmen-to-jealous-lovers-9148193.html

Seems you are playing catch up

In the early stages of the murder investigation, a lot of attention – at least in media terms – fell on men who had been romantically linked to Ms Dando.

The murder investigation provided a good excuse for those kinds of stories about a celebrity’s love life, but no credible evidence has ever emerged to suggest that anyone romantically linked to Ms Dando had anything to do with the murder
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jill-dando-murder-theories-what-happened-who-barry-george-bbc-documentary-a8851491.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

@ 38.42

Barry George lived locally “within the scene, almost.”

The search of Barry George’s residents “revealed some circumstantial connections to the crime scene.”

and so it goes on......

He lied to police during questioning claiming he did not know Miss Jill Dando yet the day after her murder he “laid flowers near the spot where she was shot”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jun/10/ukcrime

“Barry George told staff at a local help centre that he went to Dando's house in Fulham, west London, the day after she was killed, jurors were told on the second day of his retrial.

The prosecution alleged that George, 48, who suffers from psychological problems and epilepsy, visited the Hammersmith and Fulham disability centre on the day of Dando's death, on April 26 1999, to establish a false alibi.

An appointment with the centre was made for the next day but not kept. The prosecuting counsel, Jonathan Laidlaw QC, said that on April 28 George returned but was "threatening and intimidating in his manner".

"The defendant said he had not kept his appointment of the previous day because he had been laying flowers at Jill Dando's house on behalf of his church," he said.

Laidlaw said that, also on April 28, George had told a journalist his name was Barry Bulsara, a persona the jury has been told he used when passing himself off as the cousin of the Queen singer Freddie Mercury.

George told the reporter he used to see Dando on Crimewatch and "she seemed a lovely lady".

During the week after her death, he went into the local housing department and asked whether they had considered erecting a memorial to Dando, the court heard.

"He also visited a number of nearby shops and sought letters of condolence from them," said Laidlaw.

When he was arrested a year later, George was said to have denied knowing who Dando was until after her death.

"If he had not known anything about Jill Dando before her death, why was he paying so much attention to her memory?" said Laidlaw.

On May 9 1999, George was on a bus when he told a fellow passenger, Vicky Murphy, that he was going to be late for Dando's memorial service, the court heard.

Laidlaw said George "was fiddling with a piece of paper which he claimed he was going to read from at the service".

"He said he did not know Miss Dando well, but that she had interviewed his cousin Freddie Mercury," said the prosecutor.


Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 09, 2019, 01:17:28 PM
As Jill's cousin said in the docu for this to have happened all the stars would need to align. 

The statistical chances of an opportunist stalker happening upon Jill at her home address when her movements were random and unknown who just happened to have a loaded firearm on his/her person would imo be so statistically unlikely I would rule it out. 

She had not mentioned to anyone about being stalked.

During the documentary Miss Dando’s cousins comments regarding the murder/Barry George came across as naive, IMO.

Her first comment after stating “the stars would have had to be aligned” was that George “would have had to be seen walking around with a gun?”

Her use of the word “contrived” appears to have been her unconscious psychological proejection. It’s unrealistic to believe the murderer would have had to be seen carrying a gun, is one example.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 11, 2019, 02:10:31 PM
As might be expected Alan Farthing was a suspect in the early stages of the investigation but was quickly eliminated.

Anyway I found the following article which states all Ms Dando's former lovers were traced and interviewed.  Also Alan Farthing's patients were investigated as some had apparently developed a strong attachment to him.  But one by one they were eliminated.  However I still can't find any evidence that Alan Farthing's former wife, Maria, was interviewed/investigated and eliminated and/or any other women he may have had relationships with or were not patients but had some unhealthy interest in him.  Maybe Maria Farthing was interviewed/investigated and eliminated like the others.  Maybe she ended the marriage.  Maybe she was in a relationship with a.n other at the time and happy.  But maybe, just maybe, she was an aggrieved former wife who could not stand the thought of her former husband getting engaged and marrying Jill Dando.

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/dando-verdict-lines-of-investigation-ranged-from-serb-hitmen-to-jealous-lovers-9148193.html

Timeline:

- 1990 - Alan Farthing married Maria
- 1997 Dec - Alan Farthing is introduced to Jill Dando.  He was separated from his wife at the time.
- 1998 late - Alan and Maria Farthing divorce
- 1999 Feb - Alan Farthing and Jill Dando announce their engagement
- 1999 Apr - Jill Dando murdered
- 2000 Oct - Alan Farthing meets actress Helen Hobson at Cliff Richard's 60th Birthday and the pair start a relationship
- 2003 - Alan Farthing meets Dr Janet Stowell
- 2008 - Alan Farthing and Dr Janet Stowell marry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/414562.stm

I would imagine if your marriage ends when you don't want it to and you then find your former husband is engaged to marry a high profile tv personality it would only compound the situation:

https://www.google.com/search?q=hello+magazine+ok+magazine+jill+dando&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH0OvPgsjhAhWASBUIHUBLDH4QsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1680&bih=939#imgrc=TG_m9a2Al-iR8M:

It doesn't appear Alan and Maria Farthing's 7 year marriage produced any children.  Maybe there were some infertility problems too. 

In the recently produced BBC docu, Jill's cousin asks why would anyone want to murder Jill?!  The above MIGHT be a motive!

The fact Alan Farthing refers to the break-up of his marriage as "painful" suggests it wasn't a case that the couple had simply grown apart and agreed to part amicably.  If this was the case then what was "painful"?

There are numerous possibilities:

[Edited in accordance with forum rules]

The name Maria is common in southern Europe.  Many witnesses described a man of Mediterranean appearance.  Mediterranean countries where Catholic religion dominates often see marriage as sacrosanct.  Divorce only became legal in Italy during 1970.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 11, 2019, 09:43:51 PM
The following shows an image of Jill's car taken away.  I assume for forensic examination.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-five-unanswered-7764700

Did the examination include searching for any tracking device?  Or it did it only involve looking for any evidence linking the perp to the vehicle?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 12:24:18 AM
  A silencer may well have been difficult to obtain.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10643.msg520261#msg520261
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 12, 2019, 08:49:36 AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10643.msg520261#msg520261

The newspaper article you have quoted is dated 28th Apr 99 ie 2 days after the murder.  It is unlikely at this stage the post-mortem and ballistics evidence was available to police let alone reporters.  You can look at any number of these cases and find early media reports containing numerous inaccuracies. 

A silencer was not used.  The officer who led the investigation, Hamish Campbell, explains how this conclusion was reached in a BBC documentary first aired this month ie nearly 20 years after the murder:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 12, 2019, 08:58:33 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/414562.stm

I would imagine if your marriage ends when you don't want it to and you then find your former husband is engaged to marry a high profile tv personality it would only compound the situation:

https://www.google.com/search?q=hello+magazine+ok+magazine+jill+dando&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH0OvPgsjhAhWASBUIHUBLDH4QsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1680&bih=939#imgrc=TG_m9a2Al-iR8M:

It doesn't appear Alan and Maria Farthing's 7 year marriage produced any children.  Maybe there were some infertility problems too. 

In the recently produced BBC docu, Jill's cousin asks why would anyone want to murder Jill?!  The above MIGHT be a motive!

The fact Alan Farthing refers to the break-up of his marriage as "painful" suggests it wasn't a case that the couple had simply grown apart and agreed to part amicably.  If this was the case then what was "painful"?

There are numerous possibilities:

[Edited in accordance with forum rules]

The name Maria is common in southern Europe.  Many witnesses described a man of Mediterranean appearance.  Mediterranean countries where Catholic religion dominates often see marriage as sacrosanct.  Divorce only became legal in Italy during 1970.

I found a press article which quotes Maria's mother, Mrs Sweeney.  Sweeney is an Irish/Scottish surname.  It seems the Sweeney family was in Chiswick at the time of the murder; same place as Alan Farthing's home where Jill spent her last night.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/ALAN%27S+AGONY%3B+Grief+of+Jill+Dando%27s+fiance+on+the+day+she+was+to+try...-a060386261
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 01:14:25 PM
A silencer was not used.  The officer who led the investigation, Hamish Campbell, explains how this conclusion was reached in a BBC documentary first aired this month ie nearly 20 years after the murder:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

Hamish Campbell does not claim 20 years after the murder that a women was responsible for the murder?

I take it you are aware of what he said in the documentary about the actual perpetrator of the crime?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 01:16:39 PM
I found a press article which quotes Maria's mother, Mrs Sweeney.  Sweeney is an Irish/Scottish surname.  It seems the Sweeney family was in Chiswick at the time of the murder; same place as Alan Farthing's home where Jill spent her last night.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/ALAN%27S+AGONY%3B+Grief+of+Jill+Dando%27s+fiance+on+the+day+she+was+to+try...-a060386261

What’s your point?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 01:22:18 PM


- I'm wrong

I concur!

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 01:32:50 PM
The following shows an image of Jill's car taken away.  I assume for forensic examination.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-five-unanswered-7764700

Did the examination include searching for any tracking device? Or it did it only involve looking for any evidence linking the perp to the vehicle?

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts about whether or not a search was carried out on the car for a tracking device and also, if one were found, do you think forensics would have linked it to the perp?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 12, 2019, 01:35:31 PM
The following shows an image of Jill's car taken away.  I assume for forensic examination.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-five-unanswered-7764700

Did the examination include searching for any tracking device?  Or it did it only involve looking for any evidence linking the perp to the vehicle?

Not to a local car wash then?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 09:03:05 PM
13 Apr 2019

“The investigation into BBC presenter Jill Dando’s murder was ‘hampered’ by the police’s ‘scattergun approach’, former co-host Nick Ross has claimed. Miss Dando, 37, then one of the BBC’s highest-profile stars, died after being shot once in the head outside her London home on April 26, 1999. Mr Ross claimed investigators had the ‘foolish’ view her killing was linked to her role on Crimewatch

He told the Daily Mirror: ‘The thing is, and not so much the fault of the senior investigating officer, but top brass, they had this intuitive and, we thought, rather foolish view, it would be to do with Crimewatch.

.......The investigation into the 37-year-old's murder remains opens and Met Police say they will investigate any new information that becomes available

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/13/nick-ross-says-jill-dando-murder-investigation-was-hampered-by-foolish-police-9195793/?ito=cbshare
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 09:12:44 PM
“The former Crimewatch host, 71, believed Metropolitan Police officers focused on the wrong lines of enquiry after the presenter was killed.

Jill, 37, was brutally shot dead outside her home in Fulham, London, in April 1999.

Following her murder, officers linked her death to her work on the show as a possible motive for her murder.

Nick said pursuing that line of enquiry was “foolish” before adding it was rare that criminals targeted people involved in justice.

He told The Daily Mirror: “The thing is, and not so much the fault of the senior investigating officer, but top brass, they had this intuitive and, we thought, rather foolish view, it would be to do with Crimewatch.

“And we knew it would not be to do with Crimewatch. In modern times, there has never been a judge attacked for sending someone down, a prosecuting solicitor, or anybody.”

Focus also centred a Range Rover that had been spotted on CCTV near to where Jill had been killed.

Nick added: “Already it was clear that this had such big publicity, the risk was they would get swamped with literally thousands of lines of enquiry.”

It later finished with more than 7,000 lines of enquiry, according to Nick.

While Nick said it would be ridiculous to claim he and the team would know as much about crime as officers, he added the group’s experience of investigating would lead them to follow different lines.

He continued: “We did understand a lot and certainly the editor and I, we would have done it very differently.”

Barry George, 58, was convicted of Jill’s murder in 2001 but was released on appeal in 2008 when the case was quashed.

The Metropolitan Police told Daily Star Online: “The investigation into Ms Dando’s murder remains open, therefore we cannot comment in any detail other than to say we will always explore any new information which may become available.”

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/771869/jill-dando-murder-nick-ross-crimewatch-fulham-london-barry-george-conviction-quashed
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 09:20:46 PM
“Jill's former co-host Nick Ross, 71, has blasted police for what he feels was a "scattergun" approach, and for a line of enquiry he believes was "foolish"

Nick Ross claims police in the Jill Dando murder case made blunders that could have hindered the probe.

The ex-Crimewatch co-host said their TV appeals focused on the wrong lines of enquiry.

He added: “We would have done things differently.”

The 71-year-old accused police hunting Jill Dando’s killer of ­a “scattergun” approach to their Crimewatch appeals and claimed they focused on the wrong lines of enquiry.

After the TV presenter was shot dead outside her home 20 years ago, ­detectives singled out her work on the show that Nick co-hosted as a possible motive for the killing.

But Nick branded the idea “foolish” and insisted criminals rarely targeted those trying to bring them to justice.

He also claimed police were wrong to focus on a mystery Range Rover spotted on CCTV near where Jill, 37, was gunned down in West London on April 26, 1999 – a move that swamped Crimewatch staff with calls and which he fears may have hindered the murder investigation.

On the theory that her death was linked to the show, 71-year-old Nick said: “The thing is, and not so much the fault of the senior investigating officer, but top brass, they had this ­intuitive and, we thought, rather foolish view, it would be to do with Crimewatch.

And we knew it would not be to do with Crimewatch. In modern times, there has never been a judge attacked for sending someone down, a ­prosecuting solicitor, or anybody.

“It’s just not the way it happens here.

“And when I contacted colleagues in the States, it was as rare as hen’s teeth there.

“The only thing that would have made sense is if you were dealing with a criminal who was not rational about it.

“A lot of the appeals could be ­frustrating when police had this scattergun approach.”

On the Met’s insistence on leading Jill’s appeals with the Range Rover footage, Nick added: “It was difficult because we had to rely on the way the police wanted to structure it.

“All of us who had spent years on Crimewatch and it may sound absurd to say we know as much about crime as the police, but some of us had been investigating, in a way, longer than some of the detectives.

“We did understand a lot and certainly the editor and I, we would have done it very differently.

“Police were still very much going for witnesses to a Range Rover.

“The Range Rover had in those days a particular association with ­criminality. But they were looking for a bunch of stuff which was just likely to get a lot of people calling in, but that wasn’t very focused.

“Already it was clear that this had such big publicity, the risk was they would get swamped with literally thousands of lines of enquiry.

“Which is exactly what happened, they finished up with over 7,000 lines of enquiry.”

Nick, who fronted ­Crimewatch for 23 years, insisted a more focused appeal into his friend’s murder could have been beneficial to the investigation

He pointed to the ones after the murder of James Bulger, two, in 1993.

Nick said a forensic ­psychologist told him children who had killed cats always lived within 200 yards of where the animal was found.

Crimewatch then drew ­concentric rings around where James’ body was found to narrow down the search area.

The show helped solve the crime after viewers recognised the toddler’s two 10-year-old killers leading him to his death in Liverpool on CCTV.

Nick added: “It always fascinates me. Why we have this thing that ­detectives have to be police officers? You don’t need to be a warranted officer and have the powers of arrest to investigate a crime.”

Barry George, 58, was arrested a year after Jill’s death, convicted of her murder and jailed in 2001. But he was released on appeal in 2008 when the case was quashed.

Nick said he pre-recorded the opening of the first Crimewatch show after her killing, such was the struggle to present it.

He added: “It was really difficult, the only time I ever pre-recorded the ­introduction to ­Crimewatch.

“I just really liked her and so it was very ­difficult. I was on ­Newsnight the night of the murder, trying to calm down.

“When there’s an unsolved crime police, and we journalists tend to say, it’s professional, it’s complicated, and so often it isn’t.

“On Newsnight I remember trying to calm the speculation it was some kind of CIA equivalent. When actually almost all crime turns out to be much more sordid and low grade.”

Nick helped bring Jill to ­Crimewatch having been impressed with her on other programmes.

He remembered his old friend as an ­“incredibly skilled” ­journalist and added: “When people die those around them just say nice things about them and suppress the less pleasant bits.

“The truth is, nobody can think of anything bad to say about her.

“She was just such a generous-hearted, nice, unaffected person. The first time I saw her on TV, I saw this unaffected authority. She was so natural.

“Why I was so keen she should join us on Crimewatch is when she was speaking to the camera you genuinely felt she was speaking to you.

“She really was a star, the biggest on British TV, and yet it didn’t affect her at all. It didn’t matter if you were sweeping the floor or you were the editor of the programme, you were just a colleague.

“She was one of the lads, one of the girls, one of the crew.”

The Met police said: “The ­investigation into Ms Dando’s murder remains open, therefore we cannot comment in any detail other than to say we will always explore any new ­information which may become available.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-police-made-14305108
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 09:28:18 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Apr 7
Interesting point of view and perfectly correct, how come most British media couldn’t see through it? Could it be the expediency of it? Barry the cash-cow again! https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1114970628254314496/photo/1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 09:32:43 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Apr 7
Interesting point of view and perfectly correct, how come most British media couldn’t see through it? Could it be the expediency of it? Barry the cash-cow again! https://mobile.twitter.com/Michelle_Diskin/status/1114970628254314496/photo/1

I totally disagree with this! It is not “perfectly correct!” Though I understand why Michelle Diskin Bates would feel the need to peddle such nonsense! Not sure about Extra ie’s motive?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 10:11:02 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

@ 38.42

Barry George lived locally “within the scene, almost.”

The search of Barry George’s residents “revealed some circumstantial connections to the crime scene.”

and so it goes on.....

“Nick, who fronted ­Crimewatch for 23 years, insisted a more focused appeal into his friend’s murder could have been beneficial to the investigation

He pointed to the ones after the murder of James Bulger, two, in 1993.

Nick said a forensic ­psychologist told him children who had killed cats always lived within 200 yards of where the animal was found.

Crimewatch then drew ­concentric rings around where James’ body was found to narrow down the search area.

The show helped solve the crime after viewers recognised the toddler’s two 10-year-old killers leading him to his death in Liverpool on CCTV.

Nick added: “It always fascinates me. Why we have this thing that ­detectives have to be police officers? You don’t need to be a warranted officer and have the powers of arrest to investigate a crime.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-police-made-14305108

Hamish Campbell reminded viewers in the BBC documentary that the police were a year behind Barry George..
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 10:32:06 PM
M489 28 4 99
Message reports of an odd enquiry in which a man attended cab office
Man wanted verification of time at cab office on 26 4 99 & what he was wearing
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 10:44:53 PM
Barry George's uncle Mike Burke said in his book, "The investigation into the disappearance of Madaleine McCann was possibly the only case to receive more attention than Dando's murder."

He goes on to say;

"I was quite annoyed when I read reports of Doctor Michael Kopelmans medical opinion of Barry.it seemed to me that Barry's inappropriate behaviour was being blamed on the overall family. I sent a protest to Jeremy Moore. In my opinion one is responsible for ones own actions. And it is a cop out to try and blame ones bad behaviour on the family.

Following my experience and with what I subsequently learned, IMO this is often motive enough for some family members to defend their guilty family member.

Reasons can differ but fear of being tarred with the same brush or fear of their own “indiscretions” being uncovered are a couple of examples as to why they will go to such lengths.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 10:59:35 PM
"Michelle Diskin was in the front room at her home in Cork listening to the morning radio when she first heard that her brother Barry George had been charged with Jill Dando's murder.
She says she felt numb - completely numb. 'I thought: "No, no, it can't be." 'I wanted to phone my mother, but she is a very quiet and private person. How do you ring your mother and say: "Mum, has my brother been arrested for murder?" she says.

Michelle, a deeply religious woman, finally decided to phone and ask if she should pray for her brother. It seemed a more gentle way of dealing with the appalling news. 'Mother said: "It's all rubbish. He didn't do it. It will die down". I didn't know what to do and said to myself: "Could Barry have done this?"

'Could I see anything in the Barry I knew that might be guilty of this - and I couldn't. I thought about his behaviour. He can be aggravating. But no, not murder.'

But on July 2, last year, Barry George, 42, an educationally-subnormal fantasist with an IQ of just 76, was found guilty of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando.

She was killed with a single shot to the head. The gun was pressed so hard against her skull that the imprint of the muzzle remained on her scalp afterwards.

There was, however, not one overwhelming piece of evidence to link George to the crime. In the year since the case ended, no other criminal verdict has excited quite so much interest and there has been an endless debate over whether he was indeed guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Last month, an appeal against his conviction was rejected by three of the country's most senior judges.

Michelle continues to insist upon her brother's innocence. She is determined to take the case to the House of Lords and, should that fail, to Europe, believing his conviction to be a dreadful miscarriage of justice.

In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer.


Michelle is a warm, articulate woman with a strong sense of right and wrong. Being in the public eye does not sit easily with her. She is, by nature, a home-builder, a wife and mother to three teenage children.

Their terraced family house near Cork is tidy, comfortable and perfumed with scented candles. It is a tactile household where hugs and kisses are easily exchanged.

Her own London childhood had been tough, often violent. In her late teens, she moved to Ireland to work with mentally disabled children. She had little need to dwell upon her past - until her brother's arrest
.

Initially, Michelle believed the courts would clear her brother and she resolved not to speak out on his behalf. Indeed, she didn't want to drag her family into the unholy mess, and, in any case, no direct evidence linked her brother to the crime.

No confession. No apparent motive. No eyewitnesses. No murder weapon was ever found.

There was virtually no scientific evidence, except for minute traces of firearm discharge found in one of George's pockets and described as a 'close match' to particles found in Dando's hair. There was also a risk, acknowledged at the trial, that even this evidence was contaminated.

The prosecution case seemed to be simply that George lived locally and was an oddball with unhealthy obsessions. He was said to be 'fixated' with Princess Diana and to stalk women.

He had been convicted, many years earlier, of attempted rape and impersonating a police officer. He used different names (he was arrested as Barry Bulsara, using the real surname of one of his idols, Freddie Mercury) and lived in a world of fantasy. He was said to be 'obsessed' with guns.

George also happened to be near Dando's Fulham home on the morning of her murder. His own home, a chaotically untidy flat, happened to be just a few streets away. Michelle says: 'Barry was in Belmarsh Prison on remand when I first saw him. I had to see him through a glass screen. It was like being in a confessional box. There was a dark, dingy glass between us and you could hardly hear a thing.

'He looked terribly vulnerable and scared. Almost the first thing he said was: "Shhh, don't talk."

'Then he said: "I have not done what they are saying."

'I was asking questions and he kept telling me to talk to my solicitor. I cried. I think he did too. He said he was sorry that he had put us in this. I couldn't touch him but I wanted him to know he was being supported.

We held up our hands against the glass. I felt utterly overwhelmed that this could be happening to us. At each step along the way I thought it would be stopped. It's unbelievable it wasn't.

'There was no evidence. They just lumped everything up and made out he was one big psycho. Timeframes were forgotten, facts were distorted to make a picture - a very bad picture.

'The police needed somebody, and Barry looked, on the surface, as if he would disappear and nobody would fight for him.

'That's why I have to support him. I have always loved him very much.'

Michelle was the eldest of three children, raised in a cramped highrise flat in White City, West London. The bath was in the kitchen and she shared a bedroom with both her sister, a mentally handicapped epileptic two years her junior, and Barry, the baby of the family.

It was an uneasy household with frequent violent rows. 'Barry and Susan were always very special because I had to look after them when I was small.

'There were a lot of pressures living in such close quarters with people on both sides of you and underneath you. My parents fought all the time so I would take the kids out - sometimes for hours on end.

'It was very difficult. Because Susan had very definite problems that were so big, Barry's were pushed to one side.

'He was a gorgeous baby and, as a boy, was into cars and buildings. He sometimes got into trouble, but he could never seem to understand why.

'He couldn't concentrate for long periods of time and was taken out of school and sent to special school. But his disability didn't become really apparent until he got older.

'Barry has a rigidity of thought. He gets a thought and isn't able to change tack. If you changed the topic of conversation, he wouldn't be able to stop focusing on the first one.'

Michelle was 12 when their parents separated. She says it was a relief, an end to the dreadful rows. Her relationship with her mother was not easy and by the age of 15 she was living with her father.

'My mother was warmer earlier in the marriage,' she says. 'And less warm towards the end of it.'

When Barry asked to move in with his father, he was refused. 'I'm sure Barry saw it as a rejection. Probably the first of many,' she says.

By the age of 18, Michelle was living in Ireland with her grandmother. She kept in contact with her family and her brother visited for a holiday. 'He was 14 and so sweet I didn't want to send him back. I remember he used to hang about this place called Barry's Tea and wanted to work there in the yard but he was too young.

'But he would pester people, so this man sent him home with a letter saying he would take him out as his helper if I said it was OK. He said that he could see Barry needed special attention.

'The man gave Barry some pocket money and he came back with sausages, milk and bread so he could help with his keep.'

Michelle displays a certain pride when she repeats this story. It becomes clear that achievements which most people would take for granted were enormously special when accomplished by Barry.

For example, she tells how he arrived at her wedding 'all by himself' and had 'even hired his own suit so he wouldn't show me up'. She saw him handing out buttonholes to guests and was 'proud'.

By this time, he had started to create fantasies about himself and, intriguingly, she recalls a relative having to steer him away from talking about the SAS.

During their phone calls, Barry would talk of his obsession about being a stuntman. He tried to join the Territorial Army under the name Steve Major.

'It seemed perfectly innocent. He said he'd chosen it because the Six Million Dollar Man had such a name. When he later changed his name to Barry Bulsara, it wasn't something I was happy with. But he said he really loved Freddie Mercury and he was doing it as a tribute.

'He wanted to be a special person. He wanted to have friends. I can only speculate that these inventions were ways of opening a conversation. Let's face it, it's a bit more of a conversation grabber than "I'm classified disabled and I can't do anything".'

The prosecuting lawyers made much of George's fantasies. 'They tried to turn him into the Anti-Christ,' says Michelle. 'They spoke about his so-called obsession with guns after joining the Territorial Army. But the TA realised he had problems and Barry didn't handle guns. The only ones he's had are a starter pistol and a plastic gun that was stolen and broken.

'They said he had an obsession with Diana and stalked and photographed women. It was mentioned that he was discovered by police in Kensington Gardens with a rope and a knife dressed in Army gear. He told me that he was "doing manoeuvres".

'But he was never charged and there are no records of him being in the grounds by Diana's apartment as has been suggested.

'Even being "on manoeuvres" in the park, is not the normal behaviour of a grown person, but still pretty ordinary if you think like a child. He was going through his ex-SAS stage then - and it was almost 20 years ago.

'When police examined his flat they found a pile of 736 newspapers on the floor. Of course, there were some articles about Jill Dando, but there were more about Manchester United, although he's a Fulham supporter.

'There were also never any photos of women pinned up on the wall as has been suggested. The police found rolls of undeveloped film - 2,597 photographs showing 419 women.

'He wasn't using the photographs to satisfy some strange obsession. He was playing a role - that's all to do with the childish part of his life. And he'd just thrown the rolls of film in the corner - as he dropped everything in his flat and forgot about things.

'When Barry was in custody, the police had nothing to charge him with. They knew he'd been convicted of attempted rape in 1983, which he'd owned up to at the time, but he wouldn't admit to Jill Dando's murder.

'They were allowed to keep him for extra time, but still he wouldn't say he was responsible.

'If you know my brother, he's not capable of not caving in under that sort of pressure. But he does know when he's done something wrong and when he hasn't. The next thing that happened was that a particle (of firearm discharge) turned up in a coat - it was the only reason they were able to charge him.

'But the integrity of the coat had been corrupted. It was put in an evidence bag, sealed, carted away from his flat, photographed on a dummy in a police studio with an officer's shirt underneath and put back in the crate before it was examined by forensics.

'And as far as identification is concerned, there was only one person who said she was certain she saw Barry at 7.30am. She said she saw him by a car, but Barry can't drive.

'Barry has been described as a loner. But he's not. He was always out seeing people. He had friends, people who loved him - who accepted Barry with his differences. They didn't know about the attempted rape, but that happened almost 20 years before.

He paid his price to society for what he did and he'd turned his life around. And, despite his disabilities, he had made a life for himself. He discussed his friends and would say: "There's a guy down the road and he's my friend. I wash his car for him." After he was charged, I started piecing things together.

'There was a big, motherly Jamaican woman who lived across the road. When I went to see her, I could see she really loved Barry.

'She was really pleased to see me and said she hadn't known if anyone was going to help him. She was going to get some friends together to stand outside Hammersmith police station with placards saying: "Free Barry Bulsara."

'She's adamant he didn't carry out the crime.'

Michelle gathers strength from such support. She knows her brother, not as a psychopath, but as 'quiet, softly-spoken and wellmannered'.

During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase.

In the early Eighties, he was registered disabled and suffered increasingly from epileptic fits. If the problem was not properly controlled he would often stumble around.

Michelle is not convinced that he would have had the ability to plan or dexterity to carry out such carefully executed crime and getaway. Indeed, the case confounded police for a year before Barry's arrest.

'I knew right from the beginning, from his whole demeanour that he's innocent. I could tell when I saw him in Belmarsh - through his body language, his eye contact - before and after his conviction.

'He said to me: "They had to have someone. I didn't do this and I don't know why I'm here. But you do realise I am here for the rest of my life?"

'I said he wouldn't be - that the sentence would be reduced and he replied: "Oh no, not for me. I can't ever say I'm sorry for doing it - because I didn't do it."

'At night, things play over and over in my mind. When you realise this is a miscarriage of justice, it becomes enormous. They have grabbed Barry's life and taken it away from him. They have also taken my life.

'It wasn't an easy thing to decide to become vocal. But I have to stand up for Barry's rights. I'm determined to at least do that.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

“In fairness, she doesn't believe her brother to be an angel, but she insists that does not make him a murderer

I’d like to hear from Michelle Diskin Bates (and anyone else who uses this term) WHAT makes a murderer!?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 11:11:32 PM
“The Old Bailey jury heard that George was incapable of planning or carrying out a series of actions without panicking or triggering an epileptic fit.

Nine years after the shooting of TV presenter Jill Dando on her own doorstep, and seven years after he was convicted of the crime, the jury took less than two days to acquit him.

As he walked from court a free man, Miss Dando's family are now facing the probability that her murder will never be solved.

But what the jury were not permitted to hear was the details of his vile attack on Miss Gray as she reached home.

On the stairs of a block of flats, George overpowered her, smothered her screams with his hand over her nose and mouth and ripped down her jeans to rape her.

As he left, he said 'sorry' before making for the nearest underground station and disappearing. He was not caught for a year.

It is hard to equate this glimpse of George the determined sex attacker with the man portrayed in court and by his family as a victim.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1040746/Barry-George-raped-mums-door-said-sorry.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 11:30:55 PM
M489 28 4 99
Message reports of an odd enquiry in which a man attended cab office
Man wanted verification of time at cab office on 26 4 99 & what he was wearing

“We has this guy, agitated, hanging around, soon after the murder...

“He (Barry George) left H.A.F.A.D and went to try and get a lift a free lift from a taxi...

“He was trying to get out of the area but he didn’t have any money...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 11:38:24 PM
“We has this guy, agitated, hanging around, soon after the murder...

“He (Barry George) left H.A.F.A.D and went to try and get a lift a free lift from a taxi...

“He was trying to get out of the area but he didn’t have any money...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003w40/the-murder-of-jill-dando

@ 35.17 minutes

“This man first entered the enquiry on 28th April 1999 - within two days of the murder of Jill Dando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 11:40:43 PM
@ 35.17 minutes

“This man first entered the enquiry on 28th April 1999 - within two days of the murder of Jill Dando

Hamish Campbell said, “we are one year behind him”
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 13, 2019, 11:50:37 PM
Following my experience and with what I subsequently learned, IMO this is often motive enough for some family members to defend their guilty family member.

Reasons can differ but fear of being tarred with the same brush or fear of their own “indiscretions” being uncovered are a couple of examples as to why they will go to such lengths.

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
8h
Replying to
@DrSusanYoung1
Barry George is on trial again
@DrSusanYoung1
. Of course no one else will be brought to justice...no one is investigating!
✴️Police/media, stop referring to autism in derogatory term...oddball, loner, weirdo! You offend many families with this discrimination, not just Barry.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 12:04:00 AM
George also raped his Japanese wife Itsuko Toide, who left him after 11 months of a marriage filled with violence and intimidation. In an interview published today, she gives a remarkable insight into the mind of a man filled with rage and hatred of women.

George met Miss Toide after she had suffered a sexual assault herself and was feeling highly vulnerable. They married after a romance lasting four months. Almost immediately he began subjecting her to a series of sexual and physical attacks at the cramped ground-floor council flat that they shared in Crookham Road, Fulham.

The jury was not allowed to know that George had a long history of stalking women in the area where Miss Dando lived, although detectives found clear evidence that he had followed at least 419 women in Fulham, taking 2,597 photographs of them.

The judge also ruled during pre-trial legal argument that the jury should not learn that George had been arrested in 1983 while prowling in the grounds of Kensington Palace, close to the private apartments of the Prince and Princess of Wales, clad in camouflage fatigues and wielding a commando knife.

Despite these revelations, George's defence team announced they were to launching an immediate appeal.

One possible ground for appeal may be the discovery that one of the prosecution witnesses, Charlotte de Rosnay, 29, was involved for a while in a relationship with a member of the murder squad, Detective Constable Peter Bartlett.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 09:42:12 AM
@ 35.17 minutes

“This man first entered the enquiry on 28th April 1999 - within two days of the murder of Jill Dando

Interesting that Michelle Diskin Bates recently compares the murder of Jill Dando to that of the killing of Veronica Guerin in Dublin!?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 10:05:49 AM
“The former Crimewatch host, 71, believed Metropolitan Police officers focused on the wrong lines of enquiry after the presenter was killed.

Jill, 37, was brutally shot dead outside her home in Fulham, London, in April 1999.

Following her murder, officers linked her death to her work on the show as a possible motive for her murder.

Nick said pursuing that line of enquiry was “foolish” before adding it was rare that criminals targeted people involved in justice.

He told The Daily Mirror: “The thing is, and not so much the fault of the senior investigating officer, but top brass, they had this intuitive and, we thought, rather foolish view, it would be to do with Crimewatch.

“And we knew it would not be to do with Crimewatch. In modern times, there has never been a judge attacked for sending someone down, a prosecuting solicitor, or anybody.”

Focus also centred a Range Rover that had been spotted on CCTV near to where Jill had been killed.

Nick added: “Already it was clear that this had such big publicity, the risk was they would get swamped with literally thousands of lines of enquiry.”

It later finished with more than 7,000 lines of enquiry, according to Nick.

While Nick said it would be ridiculous to claim he and the team would know as much about crime as officers, he added the group’s experience of investigating would lead them to follow different lines.

He continued: “We did understand a lot and certainly the editor and I, we would have done it very differently.”

Barry George, 58, was convicted of Jill’s murder in 2001 but was released on appeal in 2008 when the case was quashed.

The Metropolitan Police told Daily Star Online: “The investigation into Ms Dando’s murder remains open, therefore we cannot comment in any detail other than to say we will always explore any new information which may become available.”

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/771869/jill-dando-murder-nick-ross-crimewatch-fulham-london-barry-george-conviction-quashed

“Detective constable John Gallagher said after his arrest, George had claimed to have seen a Range Rover “acting suspiciously” on the day Miss Dando was killed.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2008/06/23/gun-holster-found-at-dando-suspects-home-207645/?ito=cbshare
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
"Your Lordships, I am not sure of the propriety of writing to you, but you cannot have been blind to the barrage of publicity claiming Barry George is innocent.

Some of the coverage has been openly one-sided, though some - like last week's Panorama which took up George's case - has been even more disturbing.

You, as senior judges, are supposed to be above all this, unimpressed by such non-judicial murmurings.

But you are only human and given the febrile atmosphere surrounding this case it would be remarkable if you had not been influenced in some way.

So allow me to set out something by way of balance. Let me start by saying that while there can never be certainties in cases like this, I remain confident that Barry George killed Jill Dando.

That said, on the basis of the evidence, as it was presented at his original trial, I confess I was surprised that the jury found him guilty.

In particular, I was always unimpressed by a piece of evidence that lies at the heart of his latest appeal: a microscopic fragment of firearm discharge residue that was found in his coat pocket.

Barry George's supporters now claim that this tiny speck underpinned the entire prosecution case, though in fact he had already been charged with Jill's murder before tests on the particle had even been completed.

At George's trial, the prosecution argued that this residue matched samples found on Jill's hair and clothing - as well as the cartridge found at the scene.

The defence had ample opportunity to challenge that evidence. Yet now they say there are "new" grounds to question its significance.

So far as I am concerned, nothing has changed; I am as unconvinced about the particle now as I was then.

Even so, if you, my Lords, agree that this piece of evidence was such a crucial that it alone swung the jury, then it follows that George's conviction was unsafe.

But should you uphold his appeal - and I suspect you may well do so - it does not follow that Barry George is innocent, any more than that everyone who is convicted by the courts is definitely guilty.

The police and prosecution lawyers cannot speak out in public in advance of the appeal.

However, before reaching your judgment I urge you to consider clues that have had much less media prominence than the case for the defence, so that if you deem the original verdict unsafe, at least you'll consider a retrial rather than outright acquittal.

Then at least we will have another chance to review all the evidence, some of which was not admissible at the original trial.

But for the time being, let's stick to what we know already.

Despite all the speculation that Jill Dando must have been killed by a professional hitman, the practical evidence is that her murder was very amateur indeed.

I do not say this with the benefit of hindsight - it was obvious from the start.

Jill was shot outside her home in Gowan Avenue in Fulham, an address well-known to locals but which she went to irregularly because she lived with her fiance.

She had no special plans to visit her home that day and an extensive trawl of West London's CCTV cameras shows she wasn't followed.

So her killer either acted impulsively, or lay in wait - neither course suggestive of sophistication.

According to a neighbour who picked out Barry George at an identity parade, he had been hanging about some hours before the shooting.

In any case, whoever killed Jill had prepared no means of escape.

There was no getaway vehicle, and Gowan Avenue has few side streets, so the killer took a big risk in walking away where he would be visible for some time. (Her fiance's address, on the other hand, was much better shielded for any potential ambush.) This is hardly the signature of a well-planned crime.

Nor did the method of attack show any level of skill. The gun was not a proper firearm (it had been converted from a replica), there was no silencer, the bullet was home-made, and the killer held the muzzle against Jill's head risking forensic evidence transferring on to it - none of which is the hallmark of a professional assassin.

Furthermore, Jill's key was in the lock, and anyone with any sense would have pushed her inside and shot her there to muffle the sound and hide the body.

The killer was really not very proficient.

This is all a bit removed from the conspiracy theories that swirled around and distracted the investigation, including a laughable story that the murder was connected to Serb extremists who were unhappy with one of Jill's charity appeals.

(I know how the rumour originated. It was based on a mild letter of complaint from a viewer, which got more and more exaggerated in the retelling.)

As for the killing being a reprisal for Jill's role on Crimewatch, this would have been as unique as it was improbable.

Judges who sentence criminals, barristers who prosecute them, police who investigate them and prison officers who incarcerate them have rarely been threatened by those they have jailed.

And besides, if anyone was daft enough to go for a Crimewatch presenter they would more likely have gone for me, as I had been with the programme for far longer.

But Jill was glamorous. As I pointed out to the police from the beginning, when you look for a motive you usually look to people who know the victim. And through the medium of television, everyone knew Jill - she was in their homes routinely.

It was clear to me, as it was to the forensic psychologist called in by the detectives, that given the celebrity status of the victim, and given the shambolic nature of the killing, the murderer was likely to be one of those men who have a sexual fixation on a public figure but "who separate their internal world from external reality to such an extent that they need no direct physical contact at all with their target, and - because of their narcissism and absolute belief that their fantasies are real - may not need their victim to see them even as they pull the trigger".

(That was what I wrote to detectives privately early in the investigation.)

In short, the killer was likely to be someone with a personality disorder - someone much like Barry George.

It has been suggested that the police were fixated on Mr George from the start, at the expense of any other line of inquiry, but alas the opposite is true.

It was a year before he came into the frame, and the way he did so is instructive and shows why, on balance, I believe him to be guilty.

Soon after the shooting, the police received calls from two independent sources pointing to Barry George as a suspect.

In both cases he had visited places near Jill's home soon after the killing, and in both cases he had gone back to try to persuade the witnesses that he had been there at a different time and in different clothes.

These witnesses were so alarmed that they rang police repeatedly, and were deeply frustrated that their calls went unheeded.

It was not until a review of the inquiry, 11 months later, that a detective became excited by these leads.

That delay may seem shameful, but you must remember there had been literally tens of thousands of callers to the inquiry.

One of the penalties of headline crimes is that they attract more quantity than quality of information - and most media and public pressure on the investigators had been to discover a criminal plot.

It was only when all the conspiracy theories proved bankrupt that the "lone weirdo" option began to take centre stage.

Some commentators have alleged that, in desperation, the cops just picked on Barry George as "a local nutter".

As we have seen, that is not true; ideally, they would have picked on him the day after the murder.

Besides, even when George did become a suspect, the senior investigating officer remained unconvinced - there seemed to be no hard evidence against him.

But slowly a pattern of apparent coincidences emerged which, for me, is quite convincing.

This was not just a man with the sort of personality disorder one might associate with such a crime, but one who lived locally and had been near the scene before and just after the crime took place.

Here was a man who took photos of female presenters as they appeared on his TV (how many other people do that?).

Here was a man with a history of violence against women. Here was a man who carried knives and had a fixation about guns. Here was a man who lied about his whereabouts on the day.

And, contrary to defence claims that he was mentally incapable of organising anything like a shooting, here was a man who lived out his fantasies daily, following women in the street (sometimes, as with Jill, into their front gardens), getting into the grounds of Kensington Palace wearing a balaclava and armed with rope and a knife when Princess Diana was alive (and didn't she remind you a little of Jill?), and living the life of stunt man.

On one memorable occasion he starred in a daredevil feat shown on local TV in which he roller-skated down a ramp and leaped across a row of buses.

It is true that his mental condition has been deteriorating, and it may well be that he is now incapable of acting as coherently as he once did.

I wish he could be transferred to secure accommodation where he can be cared for, rather than remain in prison. But the evidence of his previous capacity and guile is scattered through his history.

So what about the theory that a fantasist like Barry George might deliberately have put himself into the frame to make himself the centre of attention?

This might explain his attempts to give himself false alibis.

But such calculated behaviour is at odds with everything the defence claims about his mental incompetence.

And in any case, he seems not to have wanted to be the centre of attention.

It is conceivable that he might have set about trying to construct his alibis out of misguided fear, though in successive police interviews he never said he was worried about being picked on for the murder.

Nor did he protest that in the past he had been routinely harassed by the police, as later claimed by the defence.

In fact, he had been spoken to by officers a couple of times over perhaps a decade - not unusual in that part of London, especially for a young man who often behaved strangely.

The first occasion was after a disturbance in a McDonald's restaurant, the second was when he was tailing a woman.

And nor, as his supporters now claim, is there reason to believe he was fearful of being set up for Jill's murder because he had been a suspect for a previous notorious crime - the stabbing of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common.

Yes, it is true that he was one of many hundreds of people routinely interviewed in connection with the case, but though he had been convicted of assaulting a woman and later jailed for attempted rape, he was never accused or even vaguely suspected of the Nickell murder.

In any case, the fact that he can be put in the right place at the right time for Jill's murder is not particularly troubling; but the fact that he tried to confuse the key witnesses about his movements on the day is suspicious, to say the least.

There is much other evidence, too, against Barry George.

Each piece on its own is inconclusive, but not when added together.

It is a regrettable fact that as forensic science has advanced, juries have become more and more dependent on technical evidence and less willing to convict on the basis of indirect corroboration.

Indeed, the very phrase "circumstantial evidence" has become almost pejorative. But how many coincidences does it take before we accept that there is a meaningful pattern to them?

I submit to you, your Lordships, that the accumulation of evidence is compelling, and it is quite a list. I urge you to verify how the early conspiracy theories were demonstrably fatuous.

I ask you to consider how the insistence that Barry George was mentally incapable of such a crime is simply contrary to fact.

How his trail of false alibis and continuing pattern of lies appears manipulative rather than fantastical.

How his personality disorder is plainly not benign (as we know from previous violence and stalking).

How his obsession with guns and female TV presenters is curious. How his availability at the scene is proven, and so on.

Let me put it another way: If Barry George was not responsible for Jill Dando's murder, we would need to invent someone of the same build, same appearance, same behaviour, same infatuations, same mental instability and same location, as well as having to disregard his palpable mendacity.

Finally, let me say this. Jill hated miscarriages of justice. So do I.

And though I was her friend and colleague I have no animosity towards George. In fact, having once worked with people suffering from epilepsy and damaged personalities, I feel sorry for him.

Nor, as a TV presenter so closely associated with Crimewatch, do I relish the idea of imprisoning an innocent and vulnerable person when the consequence must be that a dangerous killer is free.

Yet, on balance, I think that the judicial system got the right man, even if the process was imperfect.
What really matters is that whoever killed Jill Dando should not be at large to do something terrible again.

I wish you well with your deliberations.
Nick Ross


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491452/Dando-murder-I-know-Barry-George-killed-friend-Jill.html#ixzz5Bazr8W52

”I know Barry George killed my friend Jill

“So allow me to set out something by way of balance. Let me start by saying that while there can never be certainties in cases like this, I remain confident that Barry George killed Jill Dando.

That said, on the basis of the evidence, as it was presented at his original trial, I confess I was surprised that the jury found him guilty.



I agree with Nick Ross!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 01:43:35 PM
“Detective constable John Gallagher said after his arrest, George had claimed to have seen a Range Rover “acting suspiciously” on the day Miss Dando was killed.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2008/06/23/gun-holster-found-at-dando-suspects-home-207645/?ito=cbshare

“The court also heard evidence from Lenita Bailey, a friend of Mr George, who said he "rocked in his chair" and did not respond when she asked him if he committed the crime

Lenita Bailey said she had spoken to Mr George about the crime about a year after the murder.

She told the court she suspected he had lied to the police about seeing a Range Rover on the evening of the murder.

Ms Bailey said she told him he could be a suspect and asked if he had committed the crime.

She told the court: "He was looking at the floor and playing with his hands. He did not say anything, so I asked him again 'Did you do it, did you kill Jill Dando?' I never got a response."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1333889.stm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
“The court also heard evidence from Lenita Bailey, a friend of Mr George, who said he "rocked in his chair" and did not respond when she asked him if he committed the crime

Lenita Bailey said she had spoken to Mr George about the crime about a year after the murder.

She told the court she suspected he had lied to the police about seeing a Range Rover on the evening of the murder.

Ms Bailey said she told him he could be a suspect and asked if he had committed the crime.

She told the court: "He was looking at the floor and playing with his hands. He did not say anything, so I asked him again 'Did you do it, did you kill Jill Dando?' I never got a response."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1333889.stm

“After his flat had been searched, Mr George told a woman, Lenita Bailey, about the police's interest in him. She asked himif he had done it.

According to Mr Pownall,"The defendant remained silent and stared at the floor. She repeated the question twice more and asked him to look at her. His lips moved as if he was thinking of an answer but none was forthcoming
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/05/jilldando.nickhopkins1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
“After his flat had been searched, Mr George told a woman, Lenita Bailey, about the police's interest in him. She asked himif he had done it.

According to Mr Pownall,"The defendant remained silent and stared at the floor. She repeated the question twice more and asked him to look at her. His lips moved as if he was thinking of an answer but none was forthcoming
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/05/jilldando.nickhopkins1

“Undoubtedly, when persons are speaking on even terms and a charge is made, and the person charged says nothing, and expresses no indignation, and does nothing to repel the charge, that is some evidence to show that he admits the charge to be true.


Evidence in Context by Jonathon Doak

7.1 The “even terms” rule.

“Lenita Bailey was a customer at a hairdressers near the accused flat. She knew him and recalled a conversation with him. George came into the salon and claimed police were harassing him over the death of Jill Dando. He complained they had searched his home and his mothers house. Ms Bailey said to him: “Did you do it?”  George remained silent and starred at the floor. She repeated the question twice more and asked him to look at her. At trial, she said: “His lips moved as if he were thinking of an answer but none was forthcoming. Her evidence of the discussion, or lack of it, was admitted, and George was convicted.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JmDLCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT374&lpg=PT374&dq=lenita+bailey+barry+george&source=bl&ots=o2q28Nrf8W&sig=ACfU3U0U6Ar9JmuOb0wlSIVZgNXu2D_peQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqntajzs_hAhXvVBUIHc3LCmsQ6AEwEXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=lenita%20bailey%20barry%20george&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 02:37:20 PM
“Detective constable John Gallagher said after his arrest, George had claimed to have seen a Range Rover “acting suspiciously” on the day Miss Dando was killed.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2008/06/23/gun-holster-found-at-dando-suspects-home-207645/?ito=cbshare

“Miss Bailey said she met George in April or May last year at the Jazzy G salon in Fulham, west London, close to where Miss Dando was shot. She had known him for some years and wondered why he seemed so subdued. He told her the police were following him and had taken his TV and video from his house, she said. "He said that it was in connection with the Jill Dando murder."

George told her he had gone to the police as a potential witness, claiming he had seen a Range Rover near Miss Dando's home shortly after she was shot, she said.

"I asked him if he had seen the Range Rover and he said, 'No'. I asked him why he told the police he had, and he said he did not know. I got really fed up with him.

"I thought he was lying, and I wanted him to shut up. I turned round so I was looking straight at him. I asked him if he did it. He was looking at the floor and playing with his hands." She asked him again. "I never got a response... I think I remember him rocking a little in the chair."

She told George to look at her and asked the question for a third time. "His lips were moving but nothing came out."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/17/jilldando.nickhopkins
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 04:33:00 PM
”I know Barry George killed my friend Jill

“So allow me to set out something by way of balance. Let me start by saying that while there can never be certainties in cases like this, I remain confident that Barry George killed Jill Dando.

That said, on the basis of the evidence, as it was presented at his original trial, I confess I was surprised that the jury found him guilty.



I agree with Nick Ross!

Michelle Diskin Bates refers to Nick Ross in her book “Stand against injustice.”

She states on page 64:

“Ross had always intimated that he had insider information from the police that proved the conviction was right, even going so far as to interfere with the due process of the court. He wrote a letter to the three high court judges who were presiding over Barry’s 2007 appeal. 

She goes on:

“Personally I cannot conceive of anybody being so disrespectful to the courts, and to three high court judges, that they would seek to blackmail them into seeing things their way. No matter what how upset Ross had been at the killing of his Crimewatch co-presenter, no matter what he thought he knew, he was trying to pervert the course of justice, and the judges were incensed.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 04:35:19 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates refers to Nick Ross in her book “Stand against injustice.”

She states on page 64:

“Ross had always intimated that he had insider information from the police that proved the conviction was right, even going so far as to interfere with the due process of the court. He wrote a letter to the three high court judges who were presiding over Barry’s 2007 appeal. 

She goes on:

“Personally I cannot conceive of anybody being so disrespectful to the courts, and to three high court judges, that they would seek to blackmail them into seeing things their way. No matter what how upset Ross had been at the killing of his Crimewatch co-presenter, no matter what he thought he knew, he was trying to pervert the course of justice, and the judges were incensed.

I find these psychological projections, as I see them, so very interesting for varying reasons....

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 04:53:41 PM
Michelle Bates involvement in the Bamber case is surprising given what we know about the conviction.  Jeremy Bamber is certainly no Barry George, the two cases couldn't be more different.

“Michelle Diskin Bates has gone on to become a standard bearer for miscarriages of justice. We don’t need her to misdirect justice, however. Her credibility has recently taken a U turn; she has taken on the “plight” of the mass murderer Jeremy Bamber. She is now a respected “patron” and part of his naïve campaign team. Jeremy Bamber was convicted in 1986 for shooting to death his mother, father, sister and his two 6 year old nephews. Initially an inquest concluded it was his sister, Sheila Caffell who carried out the murders; Bamber had successfully made it look like a murder suicide. He fooled enough people initially but was eventually caught out. Hugely frustrated he has always insisted on his innocence.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 05:30:37 PM
“Michelle Diskin Bates has gone on to become a standard bearer for miscarriages of justice. We don’t need her to misdirect justice, however. Her credibility has recently taken a U turn; she has taken on the “plight” of the mass murderer Jeremy Bamber. She is now a respected “patron” and part of his naïve campaign team. Jeremy Bamber was convicted in 1986 for shooting to death his mother, father, sister and his two 6 year old nephews. Initially an inquest concluded it was his sister, Sheila Caffell who carried out the murders; Bamber had successfully made it look like a murder suicide. He fooled enough people initially but was eventually caught out. Hugely frustrated he has always insisted on his innocence.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/

The guy who wrote the above wrote “Gunfire Graffiti - Overlooked Gun crime in the Uk” and Nick Ross wrote the preface for the book https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-NKeSZeOs80C&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=Matt+Seiber+gun+crime&source=bl&ots=6dDuqnRPbn&sig=ACfU3U3JwPFFs_lyCVSz0R1jKicTysXAZg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGyqfa_s_hAhWDQxUIHcbkAA84ChDoATAJegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Matt%20Seiber%20gun%20crime&f=false

“We don’t need her to misdirect justice, however.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 06:03:46 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates refers to Nick Ross in her book “Stand against injustice.”

She states on page 64:

“Ross had always intimated that he had insider information from the police that proved the conviction was right, even going so far as to interfere with the due process of the court. He wrote a letter to the three high court judges who were presiding over Barry’s 2007 appeal. 

She goes on:

“Personally I cannot conceive of anybody being so disrespectful to the courts, and to three high court judges, that they would seek to blackmail them into seeing things their way. No matter what how upset Ross had been at the killing of his Crimewatch co-presenter, no matter what he thought he knew, he was trying to pervert the course of justice, and the judges were incensed.

Sounds to me like Michelle Diskin Bates is intimating SHE had/has insider information with regards the feelings of the high court judges!?

Does anyone actually believe this?

Imo she has always intimated she knows what her brother Barry feels and doesn’t feel when in actual fact it is not possible for her or anyone else to know what he does or doesn’t think or feel!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 08:52:35 PM
“There is a risk that the objectivity and impartiality of forensic science experts is being undermined by cognitive bias, according to new guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator Dr Gill Tully (pictured). This raises important issues for both prosecutors and defence practitioners.
Cognitive bias – subconscious personal bias – has been seen as a potential issue within criminal justice systems since the 1970s. But it is now being red-flagged after some high-profile cases, including false-positive fingerprint identifications, brought the issue into sharp relief.
Countering the risks has significant consequences for the way experts work with the police and prosecutors. It also opens up potential challenges for defence practitioners, who have been criticised in the past for not challenging expert evidence robustly enough.
The guidance, published as an appendix to the regulator’s codes of practice and conduct, sets out examples of good practice in specific subject areas associated with forensic science examina- tions at crime scenes and within laboratories.
Cognitive bias can take many forms, including confirmation bias, whereby people test hypoth- eses by looking for confirming evidence rather than for potentially conflicting evidence. There are also ‘role effects’, where scientists identify themselves as part of either the prosecution or defence teams.
The ‘most powerful means of safeguarding’ against that, the guidance says, is to ensure that the practitioner conducting the analysis only has information about the case that is relevant to the analysis.
However, it accepts that case assessment, targeting and interpretation may be hampered without relevant information. And it warns that risks are higher when practitioners are inexperi- enced, unmonitored and left to adopt their own approach, and when checking is less rigorous and/or conducted collaboratively.
The leading expert in cognitive bias, Dr Itiel Dror, senior cognitive neuroscience researcher at UCL, has held workshops for senior judges, while laboratories and police forces are starting to provide their forensic examiners with cogni- tive training.
He stresses that this is not an ethical issue – ‘experts are not letting this happen intentionally’ – but they must try to minimise the risk of cognitive contamination as they do physical contamination. ‘By telling an expert there is a suspect, for instance, the expert then works from the suspect to the evidence and not from the evidence to the suspect,’hetoldtherecentBondSolonexpert witness conference.
However, he said lawyers like to give informa- tion to experts. ‘To be honest, they don’t want your opinion, they are building a case and they want to recruit you,’ he said.
‘I did a case where the lawyers wanted me to get involved. I explained why I didn’t want the information but they forgot accidentally and sent me irrelevant information. I didn’t need to know the details of the rape or that the person had been charged before. I am not accusing them of intentionally trying to manipulate me but, regardless, they contaminated me.’
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/download?ac=15591
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 09:03:58 PM
“There is a risk that the objectivity and impartiality of forensic science experts is being undermined by cognitive bias, according to new guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator Dr Gill Tully (pictured). This raises important issues for both prosecutors and defence practitioners.
Cognitive bias – subconscious personal bias – has been seen as a potential issue within criminal justice systems since the 1970s. But it is now being red-flagged after some high-profile cases, including false-positive fingerprint identifications, brought the issue into sharp relief.
Countering the risks has significant consequences for the way experts work with the police and prosecutors. It also opens up potential challenges for defence practitioners, who have been criticised in the past for not challenging expert evidence robustly enough.
The guidance, published as an appendix to the regulator’s codes of practice and conduct, sets out examples of good practice in specific subject areas associated with forensic science examina- tions at crime scenes and within laboratories.
Cognitive bias can take many forms, including confirmation bias, whereby people test hypoth- eses by looking for confirming evidence rather than for potentially conflicting evidence. There are also ‘role effects’, where scientists identify themselves as part of either the prosecution or defence teams.
The ‘most powerful means of safeguarding’ against that, the guidance says, is to ensure that the practitioner conducting the analysis only has information about the case that is relevant to the analysis.
However, it accepts that case assessment, targeting and interpretation may be hampered without relevant information. And it warns that risks are higher when practitioners are inexperi- enced, unmonitored and left to adopt their own approach, and when checking is less rigorous and/or conducted collaboratively.
The leading expert in cognitive bias, Dr Itiel Dror, senior cognitive neuroscience researcher at UCL, has held workshops for senior judges, while laboratories and police forces are starting to provide their forensic examiners with cogni- tive training.
He stresses that this is not an ethical issue – ‘experts are not letting this happen intentionally’ – but they must try to minimise the risk of cognitive contamination as they do physical contamination. ‘By telling an expert there is a suspect, for instance, the expert then works from the suspect to the evidence and not from the evidence to the suspect,’hetoldtherecentBondSolonexpert witness conference.
However, he said lawyers like to give informa- tion to experts. ‘To be honest, they don’t want your opinion, they are building a case and they want to recruit you,’ he said.
‘I did a case where the lawyers wanted me to get involved. I explained why I didn’t want the information but they forgot accidentally and sent me irrelevant information. I didn’t need to know the details of the rape or that the person had been charged before. I am not accusing them of intentionally trying to manipulate me but, regardless, they contaminated me.’
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/download?ac=15591

Just as the CCRC have done in many cases they have been involved with imo.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 14, 2019, 11:53:18 PM
“The former Met detective who led the murder inquiry, Hamish Campbell, is resistant to the idea that the police “scapegoated” George or that he was “stitched up” by the police — indeed, he told the BBC documentary makers he finds the suggestion offensive. Campbell was a cautious officer who constantly reminded himself, in his own logs, which I have seen, to “beware of making things fit”.

As far as Campbell was concerned, it was not personal, it was about evidence. There was, he concluded, sufficient circumstantial evidence to arrest George and, on CPS advice, to charge him with murder. After that, it was up to the jury. Campbell accepts the verdict of the retrial. He does not accept that the police were wrong to inquire into George
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-killed-jill-dando-the-theories-and-impact-20-years-on-02fbh7vs7

David James Smith appears in the documentary Jill Dando: The Twenty Year Mystery, which will be on ITV at 9pm on April 25
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: puglove on April 15, 2019, 12:03:54 AM
“The former Met detective who led the murder inquiry, Hamish Campbell, is resistant to the idea that the police “scapegoated” George or that he was “stitched up” by the police — indeed, he told the BBC documentary makers he finds the suggestion offensive. Campbell was a cautious officer who constantly reminded himself, in his own logs, which I have seen, to “beware of making things fit”.

As far as Campbell was concerned, it was not personal, it was about evidence. There was, he concluded, sufficient circumstantial evidence to arrest George and, on CPS advice, to charge him with murder. After that, it was up to the jury. Campbell accepts the verdict of the retrial. He does not accept that the police were wrong to inquire into George
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/who-killed-jill-dando-the-theories-and-impact-20-years-on-02fbh7vs7

David James Smith appears in the documentary Jill Dando: The Twenty Year Mystery, which will be on ITV at 9pm on April 25

The last thing I want to do is battle with you, Mistress of the Pass Ag, and you are a very clever cookie, but it was a clean, quick execution.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 12:25:36 AM
Excerpts from Andy Rigsby’s blog

“The image of Barry George when he was released on appeal in 2008 was that of a victim. Slow and lumbering with his movements, his obese frame had an awkwardness. Dependent on help and support from friends, family and his legal team he was the very image of a miscarriage of justice, he certainly did not fit the profile of the murderer who would have swiftly escaped from the scene in 1999. At that time however, 39 year old Barry George was lighter and fitter, he looked completely different.

Despite being diagnosed with a host of disabling mental conditions he was extremely ambitious. Burdened with learning difficulties his schooling was a frustrating and unsuccessful period in his life. To escape this dull reality he moved into his own fantasies adopting pseudonyms associated with glamourous rock stars and masculine real life hero’s which he would to link to fictitious careers

He had unsuccessfully tried to join the police force in 1980 but he passed selection to join the Territorial Army in the same year, (but was released before completing his training in 1981). He would up to that point have received some weapon training. He then tried to pursue a film stunt career. He continued an interest in firearms and shooting and had attempted to secure full membership with a London gun club but was unsuccessful. Clearly his mental illness issues were stopping him from ultimately succeeding but they weren’t preventing him from trying. He had sufficient cognitive aptitude and orientation to focus on and pursue his interests.

When Barry George was convicted in 2001 the jury were unaware that he had a history of extreme violence towards women. In 1981 he was given a suspended sentence for indecent assault. In 1983 he was sentenced to 33 months in prison for attempted rape, he served 18 months. In May 1989 he married a Japanese student, Itsuko Toide; it was a marriage of convenience but 4 months later he was arrested and charged for assaulting his wife. The charge was later dropped. They were divorced in April 1990. Itsuko described their relationship as “violent and terrifying“

I visited Fulham on the 27th February 2019. It was a bright spring like day. The vicinity could be described as a pleasant London suburb. Gowan Avenue in particular, has an elegant exclusive air, the Victorian terraced properties are all well maintained. The Avenue is adorned with a mixture of expensive and tidy vehicles. The relevant neighbouring locations, Crookham Avenue and Greswell Street are surprisingly close. Whilst this was made accurately apparent in media reports, actually being there really does make a difference to your viewpoint.

When Barry George turned up at HAFAD on the morning of the murder he was a wearing a yellow top, blue jeans and carrying a carrier bag full of written material. The perpetrator however was a described as wearing a dark jacket. George’s defence maintained that if he was the killer he would have gone home to Crookham Road, changed, picked up the carrier bag and used a route to Greswell Street sensibly avoiding Gowan Avenue. They decided this would take 28 minutes and that did not include changing clothes. This would mean that if he had committed the murder at 11:30 a.m. he could not have got to the HAFAD at or before 11:50 a.m. On that basis they argued he could not possibly have committed the crime.

I tried the route adding just 1 minute to change a top and pick up a bag. Turning left away from Jill Dando’s property at number 29 and backtracking along the next available right turns, Sidbury Street and Wardo Avenue to sweep back to Crookham Road and then routing back towards Greswell avoiding Gowan took 21.5 minutes. Turning left initially and then turning back along the other side of Gowan Avenue to Crookham Road and then the same avoiding route to Greswell took 18.5 minutes. That was all at a brisk walk with no adrenalin assist and I’m 63 not 39. If George chose to jog at every street crossing, (not an odd action in normal circumstances), the time would be even less. I did exactly this on another visit and completed the full route in 20 mins.

Jill Dando laid dead or dying for at least 5 minutes before she was found. That is a massive amount of time for George to decide on an escape route even if the initial period was a frantic and confused moment in time. It was also merged with an element of pure luck. It could have been completely different. Nobody did a thing for at least 5 MINUTES. A brisk to fast walking pace is 4 mph / 6.5 Km hr. In that time the George could have covered over 500 metres, that is a long way.

A court of appeal and an ordered retrial found him not guilty in 2008 by a unanimous verdict. Could he have done it however. His defence always maintained he didn’t have a motive, desire, a weapon or the physical and mental prowess to execute such a plan. Some years ago, a work colleague of mine, himself an ex-convict turned writer totally convinced me that Barry George could not have been at the HAFAD in Greswell Street at the given time if he had been the perpetrator. I read some narratives supporting this and I firmly believed it. When I physically researched it myself, I found these well courted “hard facts” to be completely false, the routes and timings were entirely possible

This murder remains a cruel mystery, a much loved and admired TV personality brutally slain in front of her property for a reason only known to her killer. Perhaps we convicted the right man, perhaps we didn’t. No one else has ever come into the frame, no hard intelligence, no reliable informers, no twisted political statement, no bloodthirsty underworld warning, no sick perverted claim. Nobody has ever been able to claim the substantial reward; nothing. The press courted with the professional hitman. So many could not accept her death being perpetrated so randomly by a local loner

Michelle Diskin Bates has gone on to become a standard bearer for miscarriages of justice. We don’t need her to misdirect justice, however. Her credibility has recently taken a U turn; she has taken on the “plight” of the mass murderer Jeremy Bamber. She is now a respected “patron” and part of his naïve campaign team. Jeremy Bamber was convicted in 1986 for shooting to death his mother, father, sister and his two 6 year old nephews. Initially an inquest concluded it was his sister, Sheila Caffell who carried out the murders; Bamber had successfully made it look like a murder suicide. He fooled enough people initially but was eventually caught out. Hugely frustrated he has always insisted on his innocence.

If you don’t closely study the circumstances you would feel sorry for this suave, articulate and very convincing psychopath.

Michelle has been drawn in, perhaps a little intoxicated with her well founded reputation. She has accepted the part without reading the script. That is surely dangerous ground. Please see my blog – Murders at Whitehouse Farm.

Towards the end of my first visit to Fulham I walked into Bishops Park to find the small café there. A young man was walking towards me. Sporting a white T- shirt, we could all reflect on the script which read,

                                         “Don’t believe everything you think”.

Read in full here - http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 12:52:43 AM
Courtesy of Andy Rigsby’s blog “Who didn’t kill Jill Dando”

“There were no witnesses to the actual murder, but locals and neighbours provided statements linked to a variety of sightings that were thought to be related to what was noticed before and after the killing. Jill Dando was found between 5 -14 minutes, (estimates vary), after she was attacked lying at the foot of her front door by a passer-by

Speculation about a criminal underworld hit or an internationally driven assassination was suggested because of Jill Dando’s association with BBC Crimewatch. The media surmised that it was a “professional hit”.

As the official investigation progressed it was eventually concluded to be the exact opposite, a disjointed opportunity attack

The investigation could not help to be influenced by media speculation which favoured a so called hitman. Like JFK and Princess Diana, an insignificant gunman and an incompetent driver were too simplistic to contemplate,  the initial media vacuums groomed conspiracy and wild speculation.

The killer had either waited in ambush on chance and or was frequenting the location as she arrived home. He had no escape route, he merely walked off down Gowan Avenue, no witness can recall seeing anyone get into a car and being driven off. Circumstances could have been different. A witness could have seen the murder take place and come face to face with the killer. He got away not by guile and planning but by swift actions and sheer luck. It would seem the killer had acted alone, and he disappeared into the community streets and avenues. The murder weapon was never recovered.

If Jill Dando was killed by a so called professional who would have been highly mobile, Gowan Avenue was the worst choice of location. Her partners home in Chiswick would have been far easier to identify and log her movement routine. A local, close to Gowan Avenue however and without transport would have the time to loiter and plot for, days, weeks, months. If Jill Dando had been approached by nothing more threatening than a busy autograph hunter where would they have chosen to wait for her.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/





Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 10:20:54 AM
Courtesy of Andy Rigsby’s blog “Who didn’t kill Jill Dando”

“There were no witnesses to the actual murder, but locals and neighbours provided statements linked to a variety of sightings that were thought to be related to what was noticed before and after the killing. Jill Dando was found between 5 -14 minutes, (estimates vary), after she was attacked lying at the foot of her front door by a passer-by

Speculation about a criminal underworld hit or an internationally driven assassination was suggested because of Jill Dando’s association with BBC Crimewatch. The media surmised that it was a “professional hit”.

As the official investigation progressed it was eventually concluded to be the exact opposite, a disjointed opportunity attack

The investigation could not help to be influenced by media speculation which favoured a so called hitman. Like JFK and Princess Diana, an insignificant gunman and an incompetent driver were too simplistic to contemplate,  the initial media vacuums groomed conspiracy and wild speculation.

The killer had either waited in ambush on chance and or was frequenting the location as she arrived home. He had no escape route, he merely walked off down Gowan Avenue, no witness can recall seeing anyone get into a car and being driven off. Circumstances could have been different. A witness could have seen the murder take place and come face to face with the killer. He got away not by guile and planning but by swift actions and sheer luck. It would seem the killer had acted alone, and he disappeared into the community streets and avenues. The murder weapon was never recovered.

If Jill Dando was killed by a so called professional who would have been highly mobile, Gowan Avenue was the worst choice of location. Her partners home in Chiswick would have been far easier to identify and log her movement routine. A local, close to Gowan Avenue however and without transport would have the time to loiter and plot for, days, weeks, months. If Jill Dando had been approached by nothing more threatening than a busy autograph hunter where would they have chosen to wait for her.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/

How can anyone make this comment and expect to be taken seriously when the perp got clean away.  A fact the perp no doubt took into account when planning the murder.

I've read a press article which I can't find now, anyway it states Alan Farthing lived in a three-storey property at Bedford Close, Chiswick - see map/image below.  Three-storey properties provide vanatge points for viewing over some range and in terms of Bedford Close very limited entry and exit points to enter and flee the soc.  Jill's property at Gowan Ave had a tree and hedge in the garden which apparently attracted her to the property in the first place as she thought it afforded privacy.  It also provided numerous possibilities in terms of escape routes away from the immediate vicinity and then away from the area. 

Plus no doubt most of the time Jill was at Bedford Close Alan was there too.  Whereas at Gowan Ave she was mostly there alone.   

Given Jill's found position on the doorstep and the fact she was shot behind her left ear it would seem unlikely the perp was waiting inside and opened the door as Jill was about to put her key in.  And if this was the case surely forensics would reveal?  So the options are:

- Perp waited inside until he/she was alerted to the fact Jill was on her away at which time he left the inside of the property and lie in wait in the front garden? 
- Perp entered front garden in anticipation of Jill's arrival shortly before she arrived?
- Perp was walking along Gowan Ave in synch with the arrival of Jill's car and as she was about to put her keys in the door he/she took her by surprise forcing her to the ground?
- The murder wasn't planned and the perp just happened to walk by at the right time and Jill just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Police looked through mobile phone data and found nothing to suggest 2 people were communicating her movements eg from Bedford Close to Gown Ave.  Was it possible 2 people communicated over shorter distances?  I'm inclined to think surveillance was used in terms of phones/properties bugged and cars tracked.

Bedford Close, Chiswick

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4836634,-0.2516459,3a,75y,291.16h,85.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.46182%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


29 Gowan Ave, Fulham

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.476734,-0.2113333,3a,37.5y,138.06h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYdhZ1ji2z1XFUAwtww5QGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The design of the property changes slightly from those before and affords more privacy around the porch area.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 10:35:07 AM
Also had the perp been seen by a neighbour actually carrying out the murder he/she would soon leave field of view.  Whereas at Bedford Close the perp could potentially have been in field of view for longer.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 10:55:03 AM
0.4 miles is approximately 704 yards!
“Detectives investigating the killing became increasingly convinced Mr George was the gunman after they discovered he had followed numerous women and taken thousands of pictures of them.
But in an interview, Mr George insisted that at the time Miss Dando was murdered, he was following another woman after leaving a disability centre in Fulham.
Miss Dando was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, west London, at around 11.30am on April 26 1999.
Between 10.30am and 12.33pm on the day of the shooting, Mr George insisted, he was either at the centre or walking beside the woman.
"I walked with her for a bit and from her perspective, maybe it was unwanted attention. But she didn't make that clear," he said.
"It didn't seem like she was telling me to go away. If she'd told me to leave I'd have done so straight away.
"That was at 12.33pm. I know because just a minute before I'd made a call from my mobile to check how much credit I had left."
During three weeks of surveillance before his arrest Mr George was seen to approach 38 women and try to make conversation with them.
He said of his history of stalking: "I know I have done wrong in the past and if I could go back in time and change that I would.
" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2492744/Jill-Dando-murder-I-was-stalking-another-woman-at-the-time-says-Barry-George.html

Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

“From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 11:32:39 AM
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.

“Barry George, the man acquitted at a retrial of killing Jill Dando, has won substantial damages and an apology from the publisher of the Sun and News of the World over a series of articles suggesting that he was responsible for the killing and was a stalker.

George was in the high court today to hear his barrister read a statement outlining how the News of the World had made up a quote from him in which he suggested he could not have killed Dando because he was stalking another woman at the time.

Nick Baird, for George, said a confidentiality agreement prevented his client commenting further. Damages are believed to be a six-figure sum.

News Group Newspapers, the News International subsidiary that publishes the Sun and News of the World, further apologised for a series of articles in the two tabloids in which various allegations were made that he had become obsessed with the Sky News presenter Kay Burley, had pestered a woman after answering an advertisement she placed about a dog and had become obsessed with Pam Wright, the fiancee of the Ipswich strangler Steve Wright.

George, speaking after the short hearing before Mr Justice Eady, said: "I am pleased that the matter between me and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following successful mediation and without the need for litigation."

He appeared in court with his sister Michelle Diskin, who has supported him since his release from prison last year. He was released after being acquitted at the court of appeal and following a retrial.

George, who has a personality disorder, is now attempting to stop the authorities monitoring his movements since his release.

Gordon Bishop, representing George at the hearing, said the articles were published between 1 August and 20 November 2008.

He added that George had agreed to give an interview to the News of the World and Sky after his release in June last year. "He knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press ... and be left in peace."

He said an article in the Sun described a number of matters which had been kept from the jury. News Group has now admitted that the articles "would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal. (They) accept that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise."

In his interview with the News of the World, the paper stated that George had told them: "I didn't kill Jill Dando – I was stalking someone else at the time."

News Group now accepts that George never made that statement to them.
Read more here: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/dec/16/barry-george-news-of-world
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 11:41:53 AM
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.

Nothing to do with his previous history then and the evidence found by police when they searched his flat and in the weeks they had him under surveillance?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 12:13:23 PM
How can anyone make this comment and expect to be taken seriously when the perp got clean away.  A fact the perp no doubt took into account when planning the murder.

I've read a press article which I can't find now, anyway it states Alan Farthing lived in a three-storey property at Bedford Close, Chiswick - see map/image below.  Three-storey properties provide vanatge points for viewing over some range and in terms of Bedford Close very limited entry and exit points to enter and flee the soc.  Jill's property at Gowan Ave had a tree and hedge in the garden which apparently attracted her to the property in the first place as she thought it afforded privacy.  It also provided numerous possibilities in terms of escape routes away from the immediate vicinity and then away from the area. 

Plus no doubt most of the time Jill was at Bedford Close Alan was there too.  Whereas at Gowan Ave she was mostly there alone.   

Given Jill's found position on the doorstep and the fact she was shot behind her left ear it would seem unlikely the perp was waiting inside and opened the door as Jill was about to put her key in.  And if this was the case surely forensics would reveal?  So the options are:

- Perp waited inside until he/she was alerted to the fact Jill was on her away at which time he left the inside of the property and lie in wait in the front garden? 
- Perp entered front garden in anticipation of Jill's arrival shortly before she arrived?
- Perp was walking along Gowan Ave in synch with the arrival of Jill's car and as she was about to put her keys in the door he/she took her by surprise forcing her to the ground?
- The murder wasn't planned and the perp just happened to walk by at the right time and Jill just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Police looked through mobile phone data and found nothing to suggest 2 people were communicating her movements eg from Bedford Close to Gown Ave.  Was it possible 2 people communicated over shorter distances?  I'm inclined to think surveillance was used in terms of phones/properties bugged and cars tracked.

Bedford Close, Chiswick

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4836634,-0.2516459,3a,75y,291.16h,85.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.46182%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


29 Gowan Ave, Fulham

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.476734,-0.2113333,3a,37.5y,138.06h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYdhZ1ji2z1XFUAwtww5QGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The design of the property changes slightly from those before and affords more privacy around the porch area.

Here's an image of 29 Gowan Ave as it was then.  Looks to afford the ideal location for what took place.  Certainly less riksy than Bedford Close and what were the alternatives given Jill's busy lifestyle in central London?

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 12:16:12 PM
Here's an image of 29 Gowan Ave as it was then.  Looks to afford the ideal location for what took place.  Certainly less riksy than Bedford Close and what were the alternatives given Jill's busy lifestyle in central London?

I can see a house alarm too so unlikely the perp entered at any time.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 12:24:56 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.


Is it half a dozen of one and half a dozen of another?

The following news headline and subsequent article by Nick Dorman & Mark Williams-Thomas refers to an alleged undercover cop called Sonia and states:



The female officer, codenamed Sonia, chatted up the loner in the hope he would let slip something incriminating

“Jill Dando murder: Cops tried honeytrap to get Barry George to confess to her murder

Desperate detectives assigned an attractive undercover policewoman to try to trap Barry George into confessing to Jill Dando’s murder.

The female officer, codenamed Sonia, chatted up the loner in the hope he would let slip something incriminating.

Previously unseen images – part of the round-the-clock police surveillance of George – show him on the streets at the time, including the day in May 2000 when he spoke to Sonia at an internet cafe.

Lead investigator Hamish Campbell knew honeytraps had been discredited during the case of Colin Stagg who was charged with the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common.

His trial in 1994 collapsed over honeytrap evidence.

Mr Stagg went on to win a police apology and £706,000 compensation from the Home Office.

George was arrested and charged a fortnight after his chat with Sonia. He was then wrongly convicted of murdering the popular 37-year-old TV presenter.

During the hour-long conversation with the undercover officer, George freely admitted he had been linked to Jill’s killing, saying: “I was a witness to a situation and basically pursued as a suspect later.”

He added: “They took a statement as a witness, went to the court, got a search warrant, done our place, just short of ripping the place apart.

"I’m in trouble, you know. They were searching, allegedly, for guns, ammunition, clothes.

“It’s only ’cos we have a place in Fulham... I elaborate even more when I tell you a name, Jill Dando.”

George slated the police, saying: “It seems cruel – you can’t just go round doing that without having some evidence. It’s disgraceful.”

He added he had tried to help officers by reporting he had seen a car going up and down the road around the time of the murder.

The honeytrap had not thrown up any concrete leads.

But the secretly recorded conversation gave weight to the picture of him as an oddball fantasist who was obsessed with celebrities.

George spoke of his interest in the military – a pastime that became part of the case against him.

But he seemed happiest talking about his dream of being part of the showbiz world.

He lied to Sonia that he was rock singer Freddie Mercury’s cousin.

George then used the star’s real surname, Bulsara, in an email address he gave to Sonia so the pair could stay in touch.

The Met police surveillance had revealed he spent hours at internet cafes chatting to strangers online.

Sonia, whose real identity was never disclosed, talked to George in Kensington, West London – less than 500 yards from the incident room where Campbell was running the Dando case.

Jill, who presented BBC show Crimewatch, was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, West London, in April 1999.

George, who lived a few minutes from her house, was charged a year later.

And our investigation has uncovered a record card on George, from Met police files, which goes a long way to explaining detectives’ attitudes towards him.

It lists previous convictions including indecent assault. In 1981 he received a suspended three-month jail term for the sex attack.

He was also fined in 1980 for impersonating an officer.

In March 1983 he was jailed for 33 months for attempted rape under another of his aliases – Steve Majors, which he borrowed from TV series The Six Million Dollar Man.

The card noted he used the name Paul Gadd – the real name of pop singer Gary Glitter, later exposed as a paedophile.

Under unusual features, the police record said: “Eyebrows meet... Teeth broken... Talks with a lisp. Simple.”

George had an IQ of 75, well below average.

By calling him “simple”, police show they were aware of his vulnerablity, somebody who perhaps could be trapped into incriminating himself.

Barrister Michael Mansfield, who represented George at his first trial, said the use of a honeytrap raised grave questions over the original police probe.

Mr Mansfield said: “It has all the hallmarks of a desperate investigation
.



“Desperate detectives” “Desperate investigation”  but what about the “even terms” rule and the evidence of Lenita Bailey, for example?


“Undoubtedly, when persons are speaking on even terms and a charge is made, and the person charged says nothing, and expresses no indignation, and does nothing to repel the charge, that is some evidence to show that he admits the charge to be true.


Evidence in Context by Jonathon Doak

7.1 The “even terms” rule.

“Lenita Bailey was a customer at a hairdressers near the accused flat. She knew him and recalled a conversation with him. George came into the salon and claimed police were harassing him over the death of Jill Dando. He complained they had searched his home and his mothers house. Ms Bailey said to him: “Did you do it?”  George remained silent and starred at the floor. She repeated the question twice more and asked him to look at her. At trial, she said: “His lips moved as if he were thinking of an answer but none was forthcoming. Her evidence of the discussion, or lack of it, was admitted, and George was convicted.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JmDLCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT374&lpg=PT374&dq=lenita+bailey+barry+george&source=bl&ots=o2q28Nrf8W&sig=ACfU3U0U6Ar9JmuOb0wlSIVZgNXu2D_peQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqntajzs_hAhXvVBUIHc3LCmsQ6AEwEXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=lenita%20bailey%20barry%20george&f=false

Where does the truth begin and the lies end?

Michelle Diskin Bates claims her brother was concerned he may become a suspect into Miss Dando’s murder because he had been spoken to following the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell?

This suggests to me Barry George was already considered dangerous by the police.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates goes on: “This was not paranoia. Barry had been pulled in by the police for the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell, before the police and the Criminal Profiler Paul Britton set their nets for Colin Stagg.

The Telegraph reported:

Paul Britton said Robert Napper, who last week admitted killing the former model on Wimbledon Common in 1992, would have been arrested "within half an hour" if officers had reacted to clues he provided them into earlier offences committed by the killer.
The psychologist advised police on inquiries into other crimes now known to have been committed by Napper, from Plumstead, south-east London, including the 1993 murder of Samantha Bisset and her four-year-old daughter Jazmine, as well as a series of rapes and sex crimes known as the Green Chain Walk attacks, that dated back to the 1980s.
The profiler, who was the inspiration for Robbie Coltrane's "Cracker" character, said that even before Miss Nickell's death, the insights he had provided about the earlier crimes could have led to Napper's swift arrest.
In the hunt for the Green Chain Walk attacker, he said he advised officers to concentrate on local crime records and speak to beat officers in the area, whom he believed would already be familiar with the attacker as a local "nuisance".
"The local beat officers would have given a name within half an hour," Mr Britton said. "If they had done that Napper would have been in custody."
Mr Britton's work has been widely discredited by the Metropolitan Police's bungled investigation into Miss Nickell's death.
He has been blamed by some for the decision to wrongly pursue Colin Stagg, who lived near Wimbledon Common, over the killing, as he matched an offender profile provided by Mr Britton,
However, the psychologist insisted that after the murder he had urged police to look for links with the Green Chain Walk attacks but that police had ordered him to concentrate on Mr Stagg.
Told that Scotland Yard's Detective Chief Inspector Tony Nash, who led the latest inquiry, said there was "no evidence" that Mr Britton had urged officers to broaden the scope of their 1992 investigation, the psychologist said: "That is delightful, isn't it? What can I say? I did tell them. It was a matter of regret that it was not followed up.
"I'm not going to make accusations against Mr Nash. But I think he should look a little bit harder. It is not because I feel miffed, it is for the women who died who, in my view, should not have."
He said police prevented him from keeping his own records of the case due to security concerns, and urged Scotland Yard to search its files properly for confirmation of his version of events.
His account contradicts a book he wrote 10 years ago, The Jigsaw Man, in which he said there was no link between Miss Nickell's murder and Green Chain Walk attacks, but he now insists he was guided away from his original views at the insistence of senior detectives.
"I took up with the police the psychological characteristics of the Green Chain rapist," Mr Britton said.
"I told them where they would find him and how they would find him. They did not listen. They did not want to know.
"The people on the Nickell inquiry were profoundly unable to accept the linkage between the Green Chain rapes, the Nickell murder and later the Bisset murders."
The profiler, who also helped in the Fred West murders and in the hunt for the killers of James Bulger, said that following the Nickell murder in July 1992 he was told to concentrate Mr Stagg, who has now been proved completely innocent, and to ignore theories linking Miss Nickell's death with other crimes.
"They said to me that I was wrong. They were absolutely adamant that it would be arrogant of me to continue with that view," said Mr Britton.
"That is one overriding recollection and source of concern."
In fact, he said he was told by officers on the Bisset inquiry that Napper had been "positively ID'd out" of the Wimbledon Common crime on his arrest.
During a press conference last week, Scotland Yard officers were quick to point out that Mr Britton's book specifically stated that the various crimes were unconnected, even citing the page number in the paperback volume.
But the psychologist said that after writing the book there was a "turning point" when the Met began re-examining the evidence against Napper in relation to Miss Nickell's murder.
"I thought 'hang on, it looks as though my original view is the correct one'," he said.
Mr Britton insisted that the covert methods used in the Nickell inquiry, which led to Mr Stagg being wrongly accused of the crime after undercover officer Lizzie James began corresponding with him, were still a "splendid investigative technique" providing officers handled it properly.
He called for a "detached, judicial inquiry" into all the Napper murders and the Green Chain Walk investigations.
A Scotland Yard spokesman said there had been wide-ranging improvements to the way murders and sex crimes are investigated over the last 16 years.
He added: "If any third party wants to launch a further inquiry that is entirely their prerogative, if they have the power to do so."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/3867783/Criminal-profiler-says-Rachel-Nickells-killer-could-have-been-arrested-within-half-an-hour.html

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 01:36:58 PM
Nicholas what makes you so sure that BG is the perp?

BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.

I think it unlikely BG was the perp based on the fact unless he had Jill under surveillance he could not possibly know she was going to arrive at Gowan Ave when she did.  Therefore he struck lucky.  Also various people claim to have seen what they believe was the perp leaving the soc/vicinity and yet the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG and they were unable to pick out BG during an identity parade.  Plus imo the way in which the murder was carried out would appear to involve a highly skilled hit person and there's no evidence BG was capable of operating in such a way.

 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 01:43:24 PM
The early e-fit does not appear to depict BG - see attached.

If the e-fit is accurate and depicted BG it could be expected that neighbours and those working in the drop-in centre which BG visited would soon alert police.  Maybe the e-fit is not particularly reliable as those claiming to have seen the perp did not get a good enough view or those claiming to have seen the perp were mistaken.

Alternatively the hit person disguised him/herself well and/or he/she was recruited from abroad where publicity would be minimal if at all.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 01:49:55 PM
Nicholas what makes you so sure that BG is the perp?

BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed. 

Circumstantial evidence in cases like this, when taken together, still hold weight, whether you like it or not.

Explain what you mean by “fatally flawed”



Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 01:56:17 PM
The early e-fit does not appear to depict BG - see attached.

If the e-fit is accurate and depicted BG it could be expected that neighbours and those working in the drop-in centre which BG visited would soon alert police.   
.

You say the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG but what are YOU comparing it to?

I presume when you refer to the drop in centre you mean HAFAD, who btw DID alert the police! As did others; which if you had a genuine interest in this case and had done your research, you would know.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 01:57:52 PM
Alternatively the hit person disguised him/herself well and/or he/she was recruited from abroad where publicity would be minimal if at all.

What did Hamish Campbell say in the recent BBC documentary re the perp?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 02:18:41 PM
BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.


N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1355030613000592?via%3Dihub

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf


abstract
"The likelihood ratio (LR) is a probabilistic method that has been championed as a ‘simple rule’ for evaluating the probative value of forensic evidence in court. Intuitively, if the LR is greater than one then the evidence supports the prosecution hypothesis; if the LR is less than one it supports the defence hypothesis, and if the LR is equal to one then the evidence favours neither (and so is considered ‘neutral’—having no probative value). It can be shown by Bayes' theorem that this simple relationship only applies to pairs of hypotheses for which one is the negation of the other (i.e. to mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses) and is not applicable otherwise. We show how easy it can be – even for evidence experts – to use pairs of hypotheses that they assume are mutually exclusive and exhaustive but are not, and hence to arrive at erroneous conclusions about the value of evidence using the LR. Furthermore, even when mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses are used there are extreme restrictions as to what can be concluded about the probative value of evidence just from a LR. Most importantly, while the distinction between source-level hypotheses (such as defendant was/was not at the crime scene) and offence-level hypotheses (defendant is/is not guilty) is well known, it is not widely under- stood that a LR for evidence about the former generally has no bearing on the LR of the latter. We show for the first time (using Bayesian networks) the full impact of this problem, and conclude that it is only the LR of the offence level hypotheses that genuinely determines the probative value of the evidence. We investigate common scenarios in which evidence has a LR of one but still has significant probative value (i.e. is not neutral as is commonly assumed). As illustration we consider the ramifications of these points for the case of Barry George. The successful appeal against his conviction for the murder of Jill Dando was based primarily on the argument that the firearm discharge residue (FDR) evidence, assumed to support the prosecution hypothesis at the original trial, actually had a LR equal to one and hence was ‘neutral’. However, our review of the appeal transcript shows numerous examples of the problems with the use of hypotheses identified above. We show that if one were to follow the arguments recorded in the Appeal judgement verbatim, then contrary to the Appeal conclusion, the probative value of the FDR evidence may not have been neutral as was concluded
N Fenton et al "When ‘neutral’ evidence still has probative value (with implications from the Barry George Case) 
https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/pdf
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 03:40:18 PM
“Mrs Diskin says: "The trial should never have taken place. I sat there during the trial and listened to it and there is nothing to connect him with (the murder)."

She tells the programme that knowing her brother the way she does, he could not be guilty.

"Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm
."

Mrs Diskin also tells the programme that although George was "vulnerable", his "eccentricity" was looked upon fondly by many of the residents in Fulham, where he lived in Crookham Road just 500 metres from Miss Dando's home.

"Barry was the local character in the street for the people of Fulham. It may have been that Barry sometimes bugged them (but) he loved talking to people.

"He (sometimes) wouldn't understand that someone would be trying to get to work, but many people were quite comfortable to chat (to him) for long periods.

"(Barry) didn't have a job, so he liked to stop and chat to people, and go in and out of shops. People thought he was 'different', but different doesn't equal 'murderer'.

"Barry liked to be liked," she says.

Asked by the programme whether she agreed that George's behaviour - which included adopting new names for himself and wearing combat clothing - was harmless eccentricity, Mrs Diskin says it was "very, very childish" and made him vulnerable.

She says George should have been better protected by the health system.

"Barry lived alone but there was never anyone to check that he was OK. He should have been monitored," she says.

Asked about her brother's previous convictions, Mrs Diskin says she believes the exposure they have been given and the way they were portrayed had been taken out of context.

"Only these things (have received attention). The views of the people who liked (Barry) have been glossed over. It wasn't in the media's interest to put these things forward," she says.

"Yes, he's made mistakes, but not everyone has their whole life laid out to look at and judge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-58143/Wrong-man-convicted-Dando-killing-says-sister.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 04:38:44 PM
“Foxtrot Foxtrot” – THE DANDO DISTRACTION blog by Andy Rigsby

“On remand and awaiting trial Knights insisted on speaking to the Jill Dando investigation team. He wasted their time by falsely claiming to know the source of the Dando murder weapon.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/foxtrot-foxtrot-the-dando-distraction/

A man accused in connection with a shooting spree in London earlier this year has asked to speak to police about the Jill Dando murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/417622.stm

During one remand hearing after his arrest Knights, who walks with a limp as a result of childhood polio, claimed to have information about the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/697378.stm

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I0YkDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT334&lpg=PT334&dq=george+knights+jill+dando&source=bl&ots=wry9hu0-5e&sig=ACfU3U0jWMHvD437BATlAtz7_zCNI82CXw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8veKbuNLhAhWLSBUIHZw3DaY4ChDoATAAegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=george%20knights%20jill%20dando&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 05:19:25 PM
“Mrs Diskin says: "The trial should never have taken place. I sat there during the trial and listened to it and there is nothing to connect him with (the murder)."

She tells the programme that knowing her brother the way she does, he could not be guilty.

"Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm
."

Mrs Diskin also tells the programme that although George was "vulnerable", his "eccentricity" was looked upon fondly by many of the residents in Fulham, where he lived in Crookham Road just 500 metres from Miss Dando's home.

"Barry was the local character in the street for the people of Fulham. It may have been that Barry sometimes bugged them (but) he loved talking to people.

"He (sometimes) wouldn't understand that someone would be trying to get to work, but many people were quite comfortable to chat (to him) for long periods.

"(Barry) didn't have a job, so he liked to stop and chat to people, and go in and out of shops. People thought he was 'different', but different doesn't equal 'murderer'.

"Barry liked to be liked," she says.

Asked by the programme whether she agreed that George's behaviour - which included adopting new names for himself and wearing combat clothing - was harmless eccentricity, Mrs Diskin says it was "very, very childish" and made him vulnerable.

She says George should have been better protected by the health system.

"Barry lived alone but there was never anyone to check that he was OK. He should have been monitored," she says.

Asked about her brother's previous convictions, Mrs Diskin says she believes the exposure they have been given and the way they were portrayed had been taken out of context.

"Only these things (have received attention). The views of the people who liked (Barry) have been glossed over. It wasn't in the media's interest to put these things forward," she says.

"Yes, he's made mistakes, but not everyone has their whole life laid out to look at and judge.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-58143/Wrong-man-convicted-Dando-killing-says-sister.html

”Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. “To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm”


In her book, Michelle DB writes about being interviewed by Martin Bashir for ITV. She claims that during the interview he posed a question to her about her fathers violence towards her and Barry. She stated she didn’t want the public to think she was refusing to answer a question so she made “a blithe remark about different times and different thoughts on disciplining children.”

It appears from what she writes that Mr Bashir went on to push her several times on the subject but that she refused to answer and became furious with him for daring to ask this question and eventually removed her mike clip and stormed out.

She states in her book she replied: ““I will not continue down this road with you. You will not put the blame for Jill’s death on my father. He has nothing to do with any of this.

I’ll come back to this, however I will say I get the distinct impresssion she is fully aware of the links between adverse childhood experiences and offending behaviour but doesn’t want to entertain a discussion on this, especially where her brother is concerned for obvious reasons, hence why she responded the way she did.


Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 06:11:31 PM
Meant to mention you can download the book for free via kindle unlimited by opting for a free trial with Amazon kindle
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-Against-Injustice-wrongly-convicted-ebook/dp/B07JFZSF6V/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201550620
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
Circumstantial evidence in cases like this, when taken together, still hold weight, whether you like it or not.

Explain what you mean by “fatally flawed”

Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial. 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on April 15, 2019, 06:49:19 PM
You say the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG but what are YOU comparing it to?

An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

I presume when you refer to the drop in centre you mean HAFAD, who btw DID alert the police! As did others; which if you had a genuine interest in this case and had done your research, you would know.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me. 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 07:04:26 PM
An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me.

Nearly a year after the murder then?

The answer you seek is in the bbc documentary.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 08:08:18 PM
An image of BG taken I assume at the time of his arrest.  No one has ever picked out BG on an identity parade.

Yes I was referring to HAFAD and yes I know HAFAD staff alerted the police eventually but I don't believe it was in the immediate aftermath?  If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me.

It was.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 08:22:05 PM
”Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. “To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm”


In her book, Michelle DB writes about being interviewed by Martin Bashir for ITV. She claims that during the interview he posed a question to her about her fathers violence towards her and Barry. She stated she didn’t want the public to think she was refusing to answer a question so she made “a blithe remark about different times and different thoughts on disciplining children.”

It appears from what she writes that Mr Bashir went on to push her several times on the subject but that she refused to answer and became furious with him for daring to ask this question and eventually removed her mike clip and stormed out.

She states in her book she replied: ““I will not continue down this road with you. You will not put the blame for Jill’s death on my father. He has nothing to do with any of this.

I’ll come back to this, however I will say I get the distinct impresssion she is fully aware of the links between adverse childhood experiences and offending behaviour but doesn’t want to entertain a discussion on this, especially where her brother is concerned for obvious reasons, hence why she responded the way she did.

I very much doubt Martin Bashir was attempting to blame Barry’s dad for Miss Dando’s death but her response is interesting and indeed imo telling none the less.

Rather than ignore the question about her father being violent towards her and Barry she claims to initially have responded by making excuses for his behaviour. That’s my interpretation of what she says she said. (I’ve not been able to find the recorded interview in order to verify what was actually said and indeed publicised).

However it’s interesting to note the following:

“A defence mechanism is an unconscious psychological mechanism that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful stimuli.

Defence mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used. In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisimns are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 09:05:55 PM
I very much doubt Martin Bashir was attempting to blame Barry’s dad for Miss Dando’s death but her response is interesting and indeed imo telling none the less.

Rather than ignore the question about her father being violent towards her and Barry she claims to initially have responded by making excuses for his behaviour. That’s my interpretation of what she says she said. (I’ve not been able to find the recorded interview in order to verify what was actually said and indeed publicised).

However it’s interesting to note the following:

“A defence mechanism is an unconscious psychological mechanism that reduces anxiety arising from unacceptable or potentially harmful stimuli.

Defence mechanisms may result in healthy or unhealthy consequences depending on the circumstances and frequency with which the mechanism is used. In psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisimns are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema or other schemas
.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

I think the interview took place in 2001?

Michelle Diskin Bates appears to not only be able to remember the exact details of the interview and all that was going on around her but also the word for word conversations she was allegedly having in her head with her god at the time?

Am I persuaded by what she writes? Not in the slightest!

Her quite apparent avoidance of the question leaves me with questions like; what is she hiding? what does she fear?

Her book was her opportunity to set the record straight. If she didn’t want to talk about the violence her and Barry allegedly suffered at the hands of their father, as she found it too upsetting for example, why didn’t she say so?

Why choose to write what she did? I got a sense of one-upmanship.

She claims her brother Barry was “born with mental health issues.” Does she genuinely believe this and has she ever considered his mental health issues may have been born out of childhood trauma for example?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 15, 2019, 09:43:36 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
41m
Volunteers needed to improve Jill's Garden at Grove Park in Weston-super-Mare before the 20th anniversary of her death | Latest Weston-super-Mare and Somerset news - Weston Mercury
https://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/friends-of-grove-park-is-appealing-for-volunteers-to-improve-jill-dando-s-garden-1-5994043
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 12:47:52 AM
Was Mark Williams Thomas involvement in this case designed to manipulate?

That nice Mark Williams Thomas seems to be quietly descending into the bowels of Hell; I hear he was so shattered by the two pages about him in HHJ Taylor's ruling when she threw out the prosecution case against me that he booked into hospital; now he finds himself about to appear in front of a Judge regarding Malaysia and has become aware of other aspects of his past life that ITV is not pleased about and even his fan club at The Mirror are distancing themselves from him. I hate to warn him to expect calls wanting to interview him about his behaviour in 2000 and 2001. From very important people. Dear Mark may shortly be needing another haircut. Removing himself from Twitter is probably very wise; he might find it a good idea to remove himself from other aspects of life.
http://www.kingofhits.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,65/func,view/catid,2/id,188017/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial.

Even though Barry George’s conviction was quashed and the jury came to a unanimous verdict following a re-trial, the single gun shot particle still has probative value [/i].

N Fenton et al: “We show that if one were to follow the arguments recorded in the Appeal judgement verbatim, then contrary to the Appeal conclusion, the probative value of the FDR evidence may not have been neutral as was concluded.

I reiterate what the High court judges said following George’s claim for compensation.

“High Court judges Lord Justice Beatson and Mr Justice Irwin said: "There was indeed a case upon which a reasonable jury properly directed could have convicted the claimant of murder." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21195269

”Erroneous conclusions were reached about the value of the evidence in the Barry George case. The defence arguments have been nothing more that ”diversionary tactics.

N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf

N Fenton et al state:
The likelihood ratio (LR) is a probabilistic method that has been championed as a ‘simple rule’ for evaluating the probative value of forensic evidence in court. Intuitively, if the LR is greater than one then the evidence supports the prosecution hypothesis; if the LR is less than one it supports the defence hypothesis, and if the LR is equal to one then the evidence favours neither (and so is considered ‘neutral’—having no probative value). It can be shown by Bayes' theorem that this simple relationship only applies to pairs of hypotheses for which one is the negation of the other (i.e. to mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses) and is not applicable otherwise. We show how easy it can be – even for evidence experts – to use pairs of hypotheses that they assume are mutually exclusive and exhaustive but are not, and hence to arrive at erroneous conclusions about the value of evidence using the LR.

You are funny Holly.

That's for a jury to decide based on accurate info.   

It has nothing to do with whether I believe anyone is guilty or not guilty.  It's to do with whether experts are fit for purpose.

As per N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case

“Justice is best served when the evidence and hypotheses under consideration are accessible and clear to all parties and are unambiguously defined. In particular, this is the only way to assign correct meanings to the likelihoods provided by expert witnesses. Furthermore, because the probative value of a piece of evidence on source-level hypotheses may be very different from its probative value on offence-level hypotheses, the relationships between source-level and offence-level hypotheses must be made clear. We have demonstrated that an efficient way to achieve such clarity will require the construction of causal models through the aid of tools such as Bayesian networks. This approach helps to improve legal reasoning and by doing so demonstrates how hypotheses can be clarified, related and made precise enough for reliable quantification. Central to this approach is the distinction between hypotheses that are mutually exclusive and exhaustive and those that are not.
We contend that, in order to determine whether evidence has probative value – and therefore whether it should be excluded from proceedings or not – it should be evaluated against offence-level hypotheses. Any diversion from this key principle will carry the risk that evidence might be presented to the jury merely as a diversionary tactic, and persuade it to make decisions based on superfluous source- level hypotheses.
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement
.

Read more here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 03:06:32 PM
Quote
We have demonstrated serious concerns about the Barry George Appeal Court judgement

Its abundantly clear the Supreme Court Judges saw through all the smoke and mirrors peddled by “Team Barry!” and through the personal agendas and egos of those publicly supporting this quite apparent farce!

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 03:25:34 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
4h
Good grief...people don’t have enough work to do! #getalife There are more important things to get agitated about than TV presenters https://mobile.twitter.com/EveningStandard/status/1118094287059603456


Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
·
3h
Replying to
@EveningStandard
I love Sir David's programmes and he has done so much to make people aware of the planet.  Madeley really needs to look at himself, his own misdeeds instead of pointing the finger elsewhere.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 03:28:16 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
4h
Good grief...people don’t have enough work to do! #getalife There are more important things to get agitated about than TV presenters https://mobile.twitter.com/EveningStandard/status/1118094287059603456


Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
·
3h
Replying to
@EveningStandard
I love Sir David's programmes and he has done so much to make people aware of the planet.  Madeley really needs to look at himself, his own misdeeds instead of pointing the finger elsewhere.

Did Helga Specks words hit a nerve maybe?

Michelle Diskin’s Bates points the finger at many in her book but doesn’t back up anything she writes with factual evidence.

Today she tweets “There are more important things to get agitated about than TV presenters  *&^^& with the hashtag get a life?!

Could these be her unconscious psychological projections?

“The preconscious contains thoughts and feelings that a person is not currently aware of, but which can easily be brought to consciousness (1924). It exists just below the level of consciousness, before the unconscious mind. The preconscious is like a mental waiting room, in which thoughts remain until they 'succeed in attracting the eye of the conscious' (Freud, 1924, p. 306).

This is what we mean in our everyday usage of the word available memory. For example, you are presently not thinking about your mobile telephone number, but now it is mentioned you can recall it with ease. Mild emotional experiences may be in the preconscious but sometimes traumatic and powerful negative emotions are repressed and hence not available in the preconscious.

Finally, the unconscious mind comprises mental processes that are inaccessible to consciousness but that influence judgements, feelings, or behavior (Wilson, 2002). According to Freud (1915), the unconscious mind is the primary source of human behavior. Like an iceberg, the most important part of the mind is the part you cannot see.

Our feelings, motives and decisions are actually powerfully influenced by our past experiences, and stored in the unconscious.

Freud applied these three systems to his structure of the personality, or psyche – the id, ego and superego. Here the id is regarded as entirely unconscious whilst the ego and superego have conscious, preconscious, and unconscious aspect
.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/unconscious-mind.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 04:04:38 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
4h
Good grief...people don’t have enough work to do! #getalife There are more important things to get agitated about than TV presenters https://mobile.twitter.com/EveningStandard/status/1118094287059603456


Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
·
3h
Replying to
@EveningStandard
I love Sir David's programmes and he has done so much to make people aware of the planet.  Madeley really needs to look at himself, his own misdeeds instead of pointing the finger elsewhere.

Interestingly Helga Speck has today tweeted the following:

Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
The Strange Case of the Disappearing "Investigator" Mark Williams Thomas.

https://trollexposure.wordpress.com/2019/04/14/the-strange-case-of-the-disappearing-investigator/

Could the above have been perceived by Michelle Diskin Bates as a personal slight?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 04:29:49 PM
Interestingly Helga Speck has today tweeted the following:

Helga Speck
@HelgaSpeck
The Strange Case of the Disappearing "Investigator" Mark Williams Thomas.

https://trollexposure.wordpress.com/2019/04/14/the-strange-case-of-the-disappearing-investigator/

Could the above have been perceived by Michelle Diskin Bates as a personal slight?

Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates

Excerpt
We have also been working closely with Mark Williams Thomas, investigative journalist, who has shown a keen interest in seeing this case solved. History shows that we must stand up for justice wherever injustice is found. Women in Britain would still not have a say in our society if the Suffragettes and Suffragists had not fought and lobbied, long and hard, for votes for women.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 06:06:03 PM
The last thing I want to do is battle with you, Mistress of the Pass Ag,

Projecting as usual.  *&^^&

Your passive aggression is self evident in your posts http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8060.msg520787#msg520787
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 08:22:52 PM
Michelle Diskin Bates claims her brother was concerned he may become a suspect into Miss Dando’s murder because he had been spoken to following the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell?

This suggests to me Barry George was already considered dangerous by the police.


“She tells the programme that knowing her brother the way she does, he could not be guilty.

"Everyone who knows Barry knows he is gentle and respectful.

"I've never seen anything in him to suggest he could murder someone. To kill you need to be cold - Barry is warm
."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-58143/Wrong-man-convicted-Dando-killing-says-sister.html

Excerpt from “Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates (Sister of Barry George)

“On the morning of the murder, Barry awoke, got dressed, picked up a plastic supermarket bag loaded with documents and assorted pieces of paper and made his way on foot to Hammersmith and Fulham Action on Disability (HAFAD), a centre set up to aid people who need assistance with a variety of health and social related information. The office was located on Greswell Street, just off Fulham Palace Road. Arriving without an appointment, Barry was told he could not be seen without one, as this rule was strictly adhered to. Barry, being Barry, resisted this decision and became somewhat agitated. “I really need help with this today, it’s to do with my housing. I’m here now, and I have all of my papers with me. It doesn’t make sense for me to come back tomorrow, surely someone can see me, please?” He continued on, speaking about the problems he was having with a GP and about a legal issue to do with a cycling accident as well. This was not unusual behaviour for Barry. As part of his disability, he could not understand that his needs were not always immediate. If he needed something, then he needed it now! He would persist in seeking to have what he wanted and would use any verbal means to express his upset if thwarted. Appointments and rules just got in the way of him getting his problems sorted. Also, having an impaired short-term memory due to brain damage, he was likely to forget to attend to these documents if he didn’t do it right away,

“Two days after the killing, on the 28th April, Barry retraced his steps and returned to HAFAD and to Traffic Cars, the taxi company that had given him a free ride at 1pm on the day of the murder. He was concerned that he may become a suspect to the police for this killing and wanted to check out his times with them, also checking that they remembered him. This was what the police referred to as him ‘concocting an alibi’, but this was normal behaviour for this mentally disabled man, who was so frequently stopped by the police in the street. Normal behaviour, too, for a man who has no true concept of time as part of the myriad mental disabilities he was born with. Barry knew he would not be able to recall the details of that momentous day and that, as one of the local characters in Fulham, the police would be likely to want to speak with him. This was not paranoia. Barry had been pulled in by the police for the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell, before the police and the Criminal Profiler Paul Britton set their nets for Colin Stagg.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 09:37:36 PM
What ‘Making a Murderer’ Reveals About the Justice System and Intellectual Disability
“I can’t stop thinking about Brendan Dassey. Like everyone with a Netflix account, I’ve spent the past few weeks riveted by the true-crime documentary Making a Murderer and its depiction of an outrageously compromised justice system. And though wrongly-convicted-and-then-maybe-wrongly-convicted-again Steve Avery is clearly the main subject of the series, his nephew’s fate is what haunts me. The young man whose confession of a gruesome rape and murder is possibly coerced is described in the series as “learning disabled,” “not very smart,” and “really stupid” (that, chillingly, is Dassey’s self-assessment). When Dassey’s mother asks him what he thinks of his defense attorney, Dassey responds that he knows they both like cats

Dassey’s IQ is said to be around 70, in the “borderline” range — the border, that is, of intellectual disability. Despite the vague language used in the show, this is not about academic underperformance. A generation ago, Dassey would have been diagnosed with mild mental retardation. Two generations before that, he would have been — officially, medically — a “moron.”
These are dehumanizing words — words we rightly no longer use to describe people with cognitive disabilities. I raise them not to impugn Dassey, but rather to point out how implicit, systemic ableism — that is, discrimination against and fear of people with disabilities — has compounded the miscarriage of justice in every step of Dassey’s case. Not only was he subject to techniques that have been known to produce false confessions, but he also was isolated from anyone who could properly safeguard his rights as a person with cognitive disability. His public defender — that is, the person whose legal duty it was to be his advocate — showed neither compassion for nor basic understanding of Dassey’s disability. But hey, at least they both like cats.


“I have a brother whose IQ is a little below Dassey’s. My brother is a kind, moral man in his 40s. He lives in a group home for adults with disabilities. He has a high school diploma; he has held part-time jobs. He likes cats, too. From the documentary, I would guess that he is intellectually more limited than Dassey, but socially more competent. My brother is, I think, a person incapable of willful violence. But I couldn’t help wondering: What would he do if he, like Dassey, were confronted with police officers, investigators and lawyers who kept accusing him of lying? Would he, eventually, tell them what they want to hear? He knows he’s not supposed to lie, but he also desperately wants people to approve of him — for them to treat him like an adult, which they sometimes don’t. Which social imperative would win: the need to tell the truth, or the desire to be treated with dignity?

What strikes me as a strange mercy, in this imaginary, is that unlike Dassey, my brother “looks” disabled. If, God forbid, he were in legal trouble, just about any person with authority could be convinced that he was not entirely capable of advocating for his own best interests or understanding the gravity of the situation.
I recognize the irony here. The same logic that has sometimes led to discrimination and ostracism — the assumption that people with cognitive disabilities are fundamentally “abnormal,” and thus visibly different from people of average intelligence — just might protect my brother through the judicial process.
I wonder, when the judge denies Dassey’s request for a new lawyer in Making a Murderer Episode 4, just what he sees in the child in front of him. Does he take Dassey’s reticence and flat affect as defiance, the sulking of a dangerous teenager? Does he see any glimpse of what I keep seeing: a boy who knows, on a deep level, that he is not capable of the kind of self-assertion the system demands of him?
Of course, Dassey’s cognitive disabilities do not mean he is incapable of committing horrible acts. People with disabilities are not, despite what my grandma said, angels sent to teach “the rest of us” lessons about being kind to one another. Still, Making a Murderer, incisive as it is, barely grazes the legal and moral implications of Dassey’s disability status. Check out The Arc’s list of common responses people with intellectual disabilities might have when suspected of a crime:

Read more here https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/what-making-a-murderer-reveals-about-the-justice-system-and-intellectual-disability-74126/

How do people with intellectual disability become victims of crime?
“Factors such as impaired cognitive abilities and judgment, physical disabilities, insufficient adaptive behaviors, constant interactions with "protectors" who exploit them, lack of knowledge on how to protect themselves and living and working in high-risk environments increase the vulnerability to victimization (Luckasson, 1992).

Crimes committed against people with intellectual disability are often labeled as abuse and neglect (rather than assault, rape or murder), which understates the criminal victimization problem. Many victims with intellectual disability may not report crimes because of their dependence on the abuser for basic survival needs. When victims do report crimes, police and court officials may not take the person's allegations seriously or be reluctant to get involved. Additionally, people with intellectual disability often don’t have access to the types of support and resources they need to prosecute.
https://www.thearc.org/what-we-do/resources/fact-sheets/criminal-justice

What disadvantages do people with intellectual disability face in the criminal justice system?

“Considering such extreme disadvantages, it is not surprising that people with intellectual disability are more likely to be arrested, convicted, sentenced to prison and victimized in prison. Once in the criminal justice system, these individuals are less likely to receive probation or parole and tend to serve longer sentences due to an inability to understand or adapt to prison rules. Some common responses from those with intellectual disability that may affect their ability to protect their rights include the following:

As suspects, individuals may:

not want their disability to be recognized (and try to cover it up)
not understand their rights but pretend to understand
not understand commands, instructions, etc.
be overwhelmed by police presence
act upset at being detained and/or try to run away
say what they think officers want to hear
have difficulty describing facts or details of offense
be the first to leave the scene of the crime, and the first to get caught
be confused about who is responsible for the crime and "confess" even though innocent

As victims, individuals may:
be easily victimized and targeted for victimization
be less likely or able to report victimization
be easily influenced by and eager to please others
think that how they have been treated is normal and not realize the victimization is a crime
think the perpetrator is a “friend”
be unaware of how serious or dangerous the situation is
not be considered as credible witnesses, even in situations where such concern is unwarranted
have very few ways to get help, get to a safe place or obtain victim services or counseling

https://www.thearc.org/what-we-do/resources/fact-sheets/criminal-justice
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 10:44:48 PM

”Erroneous conclusions were reached about the value of the evidence in the Barry George case. The defence arguments have been nothing more than ”diversionary tactics.

Interesting how Barry George’s sister thanks the jury and her choice of words - she says “they obviously worked very hard to correctly interpret the circumstantial evidence in this case”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KOigQCQVj-os
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 16, 2019, 11:54:58 PM
Psalm 27: 11-14 11. “Teach me your way, Lord; lead me in a straight path because of my oppressors. 12. Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, spouting malicious accusations. 13. I remain confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. 14. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.


Michelle Diskin Bates uses the above psalm before getting started on chapter 1 of her book. In fact her entire book is littered with quotes from the bible and alleged internal dialogue she has with her god.

Following my experiences and in light of what I’ve learned since, I thought it worthwhile to post this:


3 ways Christians manipulate people without knowing it
"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (John 3:20-21

Christians are told to deal with all things in the light. Simply put, we are to live honest lives, and all our dealings with people are to be characterized by honesty, transparency, and truth. We can't hide anything from God, and thus we should be true.

One of the things that Christians should avoid doing, then, is to manipulate people. Deceiving people for the purpose of acquiring something or having someone do something is a wrong thing to do. God Himself does not manipulate us into doing His will, so why should we?

That said, there are some Christians who manipulate the unsuspecting and the naïve. There are some Christians, on the other hand, who didn't want to manipulate people, but their actions and words still are deceitful and manipulative. Either way, we should be careful with them

“How Christians manipulate others
If you're a Christian who doesn't know if you're already being manipulated, or if you're a Christian serious in making sure you don't manipulate others, here are some common ways Christians manipulate people.

1) Using the name of God to make people believe what you say

If there's one way Christians use God's name in vain, it's to manipulate others. There are some who use God's name to convince people to believe them, or simply listen to them.

When a person keeps saying "God said" or "thus says the Lord" every time he or she starts explaining something, be careful. The Lord Jesus Himself said that many will come in His name, but they are fakes. They don't deserve our ears.

2) Quoting the Bible to back one's claim

Another way Christians manipulate others is by using God's word to back their claim. Peter said these people "twist [Scripture] to their own destruction" (see 2 Peter 3:16).

One common example is when an abusive husband demands that his wife respect and submit to him according to Ephesians 5:22, ignoring verse 25 that says he must love his wife like Christ loved the church. This can also happen the other way around, with an abusive wife.

Greedy ministers are also another example. They keep talking about tithes and offerings (Malachi 3:10) in order to get more money. They also emphasize their authority over the flock (Romans 13:1), forgetting that they are charged to take care of them (1 Peter 5:1-4) and not abuse them (Ezekiel 34:1-10).

3) Acting religious to make people think you're ok

This one is highly self-defeating. Many Christians act religious in an attempt to hide their struggles and failures. Using a language called "Christianese," such believers may or may not know it but they are operating under pride.

When they commit sin, for example, they start talking about grace and God's forgiveness. But when someone else falls, they suddenly focus on holiness and God's judgment. This, my friends, is hypocrisy at its finest.

Such people do this to gain the admiration of the naïve. They do this to get the spotlight. Again, they may or may not know it, but they are actually lying to themselves and to others.
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/3-ways-christians-manipulate-people-without-knowing-it/119819.htm
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 07:26:37 AM
Excerpt from “Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates (Sister of Barry George)

“........ This was not unusual behaviour for Barry. As part of his disability, he could not understand that his needs were not always immediate. If he needed something, then he needed it now! He would persist in seeking to have what he wanted and would use any verbal means to express his upset if thwarted. Appointments and rules just got in the way of him getting his problems sorted. Also, having an impaired short-term memory due to brain damage, he was likely to forget to attend to these documents if he didn’t do it right away,

“Barry had previously been convicted for attempted rape and indecent assault some years earlier, and he lived in the vicinity of Dando’s flat. When I ask Michelle about these serious charges, she doesn’t respond defensively or try to protect her brother; instead she explains, gently, that she too was horrified when she discovered the truth – and told her brother so: “I’m afraid he was given quite a tough time from me; he didn’t enjoy that visit one bit,” she says, briskly. “But I think it needs to be understood that Barry is like a nine-year-old boy living in an adult’s body. These things should not happen, and he knows right from wrong, but at the same time, he has a whole host of disabilities.”
https://www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2019/April-2019/My-brother-was-wrongly-convicted-of-murdering-Jill-Dando


It wasn’t just “verbal means” Barry George used to get what he wanted.


“As for Michelle, she now attends All Party Parliamentary Groups in parliament to advise on miscarriages of justice and share her story, but she’s humble about her role: “I have never felt that I have enough knowledge to look at somebody’s case and say: ‘Oh, clear miscarriage of justice’, but I will look at somebody’s information and see whether they require support. I am very happy to support families. It’s in a small way, but a small way makes a huge difference. Just to contact someone and say: ‘Keep going, you’re doing well.’ These things are so vital.
https://www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2019/April-2019/My-brother-was-wrongly-convicted-of-murdering-Jill-Dando


“It was a real shock to hear, sometime later, that the son, Jeremy Bamber, had been arrested for the killings…how was that possible when he was outside during the siege and everyone knew that? I presumed the police knew something we did not; there must have been strong evidence to convict a man of killing his entire family…I pushed my unease aside and got on with motherhood and my own life.

Since then I have revisited the facts of this case in light of so many high-profile miscarriage of justice cases coming to light, including that of my own brother, Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. More recently we’ve heard of the lies and cover-ups in the Hillsborough deaths and The Chilcot report exposing the same type of cover ups in the Iraqi war scandal. In the Bamber case I can find no evidence to convince me of the guilt of this man. Nothing that can account for a man languishing in jail for more than thirty years. How did a jury convict a young man without proof?
https://jeremybamber.blogspot.com/2016/08/justice-is-never-served-by-conviction.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 12:55:22 PM
Interesting to note Barry George and his sisters were allegedly witness to the Shepherds Bush murders.

“The Shepherd's Bush murders, also known as the Massacre of Braybrook Street, involved the murder of three police officers in London by Harry Roberts and two others in 1966

The officers had stopped to question the three occupants of a car waiting on Braybrook Street, near Wormwood Scrubs prison. Roberts shot dead Temporary Detective Constable David Wombwell and Detective Sergeant Christopher Head, whilst John Duddy, another occupant in the vehicle, shot dead Police Constable Geoffrey Fox.

The three suspects went on the run, initiating a large manhunt. All three were eventually arrested and subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment. Duddy died in prison in 1981. John Witney, the driver of the suspects' vehicle, was also convicted of the murders; he was released from prison in 1991 but was killed in 1999 in an unconnected incident. Roberts became one of the longest-serving prisoners in the country, serving 48 years before his controversial release in 2014.

Public sympathy for the families of the victims resulted in the establishment of the Police Dependants' Trust to assist the welfare of families of British police officers who have died in the line of duty.[2]


“The murders caused outrage in the United Kingdom and there were calls for the reintroduction of the recently abolished death penalty and for an increase in the number of police officers trained to use firearms (British police officers are normally unarmed). The Metropolitan Police Firearms Wing was established soon after the incident.

Six hundred Metropolitan Police officers lined the route of the three victims' funeral procession in Shepherd's Bush and a memorial service in Westminster Abbey was attended by Prime Minister Harold Wilson, Leader of the Opposition Edward Heath and many other dignitaries, as well as thousands of police officers from all over the country. More than one thousand members of the public stood in mourning outside the Abbey. Holiday camp owner Billy Butlin donated £250,000 to a new Police Dependants' Trust, and it had soon raised more than £1 million.

In 1988 the Police Memorial Trust established a stone memorial to the three officers at the site of the incident in Braybrook Street
.[9] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_Bush_murders
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Interesting to note Barry George and his sisters were allegedly witness to the Shepherds Bush murders.

“The Shepherd's Bush murders, also known as the Massacre of Braybrook Street, involved the murder of three police officers in London by Harry Roberts and two others in 1966

The officers had stopped to question the three occupants of a car waiting on Braybrook Street, near Wormwood Scrubs prison. Roberts shot dead Temporary Detective Constable David Wombwell and Detective Sergeant Christopher Head, whilst John Duddy, another occupant in the vehicle, shot dead Police Constable Geoffrey Fox.

The three suspects went on the run, initiating a large manhunt. All three were eventually arrested and subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment. Duddy died in prison in 1981. John Witney, the driver of the suspects' vehicle, was also convicted of the murders; he was released from prison in 1991 but was killed in 1999 in an unconnected incident. Roberts became one of the longest-serving prisoners in the country, serving 48 years before his controversial release in 2014.

Public sympathy for the families of the victims resulted in the establishment of the Police Dependants' Trust to assist the welfare of families of British police officers who have died in the line of duty.[2]


“The murders caused outrage in the United Kingdom and there were calls for the reintroduction of the recently abolished death penalty and for an increase in the number of police officers trained to use firearms (British police officers are normally unarmed). The Metropolitan Police Firearms Wing was established soon after the incident.

Six hundred Metropolitan Police officers lined the route of the three victims' funeral procession in Shepherd's Bush and a memorial service in Westminster Abbey was attended by Prime Minister Harold Wilson, Leader of the Opposition Edward Heath and many other dignitaries, as well as thousands of police officers from all over the country. More than one thousand members of the public stood in mourning outside the Abbey. Holiday camp owner Billy Butlin donated £250,000 to a new Police Dependants' Trust, and it had soon raised more than £1 million.

In 1988 the Police Memorial Trust established a stone memorial to the three officers at the site of the incident in Braybrook Street
.[9] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_Bush_murders

Glen Hazel, another witness, who was also aged 11 at the time, appears to have seen the same/similar to what Michelle Diskin Bates describes in her book.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29737668
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 07:57:07 PM
The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.

  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue

What about the fibre evidence?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 10:24:45 PM
“Two trials and two appeals later, Barry George has spent eight years in prison.

He spent 12 months in Belmarsh prison, south London, which he described as "hell". Continually stared at and heckled, George said he kept his head down, never spoke to anyone and stayed close to prison wardens. He was frightened when inmates spat in his food. He was also placed on suicide watch in a single cell after attempting to hang himself using rope made from bedsheets. The presence of Jeffrey Archer around the same time, he said, took some of the attention away.

George was transferred in 2002 to HMP Whitemoor, a high-security prison in Cambridgeshire and home to some of the country's most notorious killers including Kenneth Noye and Jeremy Bamber. He became prisoner FF5227, where he occupied a single cell in C-wing and earned the privilege of a television.

In a 2002 Sunday Mirror interview with Don Hale, the journalist who fought to free Stephen Downing, who was wrongly jailed for murder in 1974, Hale said George spent his time reading or watching TV, where his favourite programme was Top of the Pops.

But George was convinced he would die violently in prison. He told Hale: "It is just a matter of time before I am killed ... I think I will die in prison. Somebody will have me done away. I never shot Jill, never did it, but I don't think people in authority want to know. They would rather I die and the whole thing go away. I keep telling them that I didn't do it and that somebody in the underworld was responsible, but they just don't want to know or help me.

"I don't like to let the warders out of my sight ... I feel there is a contract out on my head and one of the prisoners is just waiting for the right time to strike. A few come up to me in the dinner queue and say 'watch your back mate, they are after you'. Lots of the prisoners liked Jill and blamed me for murdering her."

George said sometime later he managed to gain some credibility with prisoners who believed Dando was killed by underworld figures.

"Lots have come up to me and said 'we know you didn't do it, murder Jill'. They believe me now. Before, I was always getting threatened. They used to call me s..m and spit in my tea. Now the other prisoners have been better with me. "

George was transferred back to Belmarsh in November last year, where he placed himself on the "vulnerable prisoner" list at the jail, used to keep track of prisoners who are concerned about their safety or are unwell. His family and sister, Michelle Diskin, could not visit while he was on this list. A family member said at the time: "We don't know why he has placed himself on the list."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/02/jilldando.ukcrime1
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 17, 2019, 10:29:35 PM
“Two trials and two appeals later, Barry George has spent eight years in prison.

He spent 12 months in Belmarsh prison, south London, which he described as "hell". Continually stared at and heckled, George said he kept his head down, never spoke to anyone and stayed close to prison wardens. He was frightened when inmates spat in his food. He was also placed on suicide watch in a single cell after attempting to hang himself using rope made from bedsheets. The presence of Jeffrey Archer around the same time, he said, took some of the attention away.

George was transferred in 2002 to HMP Whitemoor, a high-security prison in Cambridgeshire and home to some of the country's most notorious killers including Kenneth Noye and Jeremy Bamber. He became prisoner FF5227, where he occupied a single cell in C-wing and earned the privilege of a television.

In a 2002 Sunday Mirror interview with Don Hale, the journalist who fought to free Stephen Downing, who was wrongly jailed for murder in 1974, Hale said George spent his time reading or watching TV, where his favourite programme was Top of the Pops.

But George was convinced he would die violently in prison. He told Hale: "It is just a matter of time before I am killed ... I think I will die in prison. Somebody will have me done away. I never shot Jill, never did it, but I don't think people in authority want to know. They would rather I die and the whole thing go away. I keep telling them that I didn't do it and that somebody in the underworld was responsible, but they just don't want to know or help me.

"I don't like to let the warders out of my sight ... I feel there is a contract out on my head and one of the prisoners is just waiting for the right time to strike. A few come up to me in the dinner queue and say 'watch your back mate, they are after you'. Lots of the prisoners liked Jill and blamed me for murdering her."

George said sometime later he managed to gain some credibility with prisoners who believed Dando was killed by underworld figures.

"Lots have come up to me and said 'we know you didn't do it, murder Jill'. They believe me now. Before, I was always getting threatened. They used to call me s..m and spit in my tea. Now the other prisoners have been better with me. "

George was transferred back to Belmarsh in November last year, where he placed himself on the "vulnerable prisoner" list at the jail, used to keep track of prisoners who are concerned about their safety or are unwell. His family and sister, Michelle Diskin, could not visit while he was on this list. A family member said at the time: "We don't know why he has placed himself on the list."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/02/jilldando.ukcrime1

Michelle Diskin Bates does mention Jeffrey Archer in her book but no mention of her brothers alleged attempted suicide?

There’s also no mention of Don Hale?

“Don Hale, who shot to fame when he helped clear Stephen Downing of the 1973 "Bakewell murder" of Wendy Sewell, says he now has evidence suggesting Barry George, the man convicted of Jill Dando's murder, did not shoot the BBC presenter.
Hale, who was asked by George's family to investigate the case, was visiting the area to speak to journalism students at Salford University last Friday. He explained how he was the only journalist to have visited George in prison, and did not believe he was guilty.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/don-digs-deep-to-help-case-1157985

“I was called in after he lost his appeal and pretty much had to start from scratch," he said. "I was the only journalist that was allowed to see Barry and I spent three hours with him.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/freedom-bid-man-who-shot-2933917

“Don Hale is undoubtedly best known for his involvement in the cases of wrongly convicted murderers Stephen Downing and Barry George who were both released after the tireless work of Don and others in over-turning a gross miscarriage of justice
http://www.donhale.co.uk/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:01:38 AM

Don Hale OBE
@perryscope21
·
Apr 4
Hamish Campbell said on TV that the tall dark man seen walking away from Jill's home by a neighbour was her probable killer - yet he arrests Barry George who was the complete opposite of this description. Many leads ignored.
Quote Tweet

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
 · Apr 4
Replying to @perryscope21
Thank you Don. No ‘right of reply’ either. They spoke with me on courtesy calls, but no warning as to the content. The only thing they did was to NOT describe Barry’s autism in disparaging terms...oddball, weirdo. They obviously couldn’t find a better word for Loner though 😡


Don Hale OBE
@perryscope21
·
Apr 4
It was interesting to note that many of Jill Dando's family and friends never thought Barry George was responsible for her murder. Some of his team allegedly had reservations too and believed he was about to arrest a neighbour before Barry's name cropped up.
Quote Tweet

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
 · Apr 4
Replying to @perryscope21
The programme shocked me, it was outrageous that they gave an ex cop, of a failed investigation a huge platform, then used leading questions to reach their objective. They knew my book outlines the flaws in the investigation, but chose to sideline that.


Don Hale OBE
@perryscope21
·
Apr 4
The documentary was very biased and one sided. Nothing new. No interview with Barry George and his family, no acknowledgement Campbell made a complete hash of the police inquiry and no apology to an innocent man.
Quote Tweet

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
 · Apr 3
“...undeveloped film, and a collection of cuttings about Dando.”
Is it only Hamish Campbell who doesn’t know this is a lie? Two trials both knew there were no cuttings, underlining or other markings on the magazines. Campbell saw cuttings?
(link: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/apr/02/the-murder-of-jill-dando-review) theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2…
https://mobile.twitter.com/perryscope21?lang=en
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
Sept 2006
“A row has broken out over the basis of information used in a Panorama documentary about the murder of television presenter Jill Dando.

Award-winning journalist Don Hale has accused Raphael Rowe, the presenter of the programme, of using old material, a claim which Rowe strongly denies.

Hale told Press Gazette: "I'm accusing him of plagiarism to a certain extent. It's a 100 per cent lift of the information that was presented to the Criminal Cases Review Commission on 5 November, 2002.

"It gave the impression that Raphael and the BBC team had come up with this new evidence completely on their own, which is not the case."

The Panorama special, Jill Dando's Murder — The New Evidence, featured forensic analysis which questioned the only piece of scientific evidence against Barry George, the man jailed for murdering Dando.

In the programme, which attracted 4.6m viewers on Tuesday night, Rowe investigated if there was new relevant evidence that should have been heard by a jury, and gained exclusive access to case documents and exhibits.

Rowe told Press Gazette: "We as investigative journalists went out there and spoke to the most crucial witnesses, explored the most crucial elements of the case –— the scientific elements of the case as well as other pieces of evidence.

"We didn't do a paper exercise investigation, we spoke to people, we got to the heart of the issues surrounding the evidence."

According to Rowe, the only issue that was raised at the Court of Appeal was identification. The issue of contamination was also mentioned, but no new evidence was brought.

He said that the jury members and other witnesses who were also important to the trial told him they had not been approached by anybody since the case was first heard.

Hale was part of the team with MOJO [Miscarriages of Justice Organisation] that had conducted a lot of work on the case long before Raphael Rowe began investigating the murder two years ago. He said: "There was no acknowledgement or reference at all to the work that we had done as a team in preparation for this."

However, Rowe argued that the capability of MOJO was overestimated.

He said: "They gave us no information that was included in the programme. The information that the organisation MOJO gave us could not be stood up."
https://pressgazette.co.uk/hale-hits-out-over-dando-special/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:13:33 AM
“BARRY George claimed he knew who killed Jill Dando in an exclusive interview with the Sunday Mercury.

The former Midland stuntman was sensationally freed from a life sentence on Friday after a jury overturned his conviction for murdering the TV presenter.

But in his only interview from behind bars, George protested his innocence and told the Sunday Mercury he knew who really shot the BBC star.

‘‘Someone in the underworld was responsible for Jill Dando’s murder,” he said. ‘‘They don’t want the case re-opened.

Barry George told the Sunday Mercury he knew who killed Jill Dando in his one and only jail interview.

The former Midland stuntman was freed on Friday after an Old Bailey jury overturned his conviction for the murder of the much loved BBC TV presenter.

He spoke to award-winning former Mercury journalist Don Hale in 2002 and said he was convinced a professional hitman was to blame for the shooting – and feared he was next.

George, 48, said: “Someone in the underworld was probably responsible for Jill Dando’s murder. Now they want to keep me quiet.

‘‘I think someone wants to do me in. They don’t want the case re-opened.”

Our reporter interviewed George in Whitemoor jail, Cambridgeshire, as he served a life sentence for the murder of the Crimewatch star.

Journalist Jill, who also fronted the BBC’s Holiday programme, was shot dead on the doorstep of her Fulham home, West London, just three months after becoming engaged to Alan Farthing.

George was later jailed on mainly circumstantial evidence and had always claimed that he was at the Hammersmith & Fulham Action for Disability office at the time of the murder in April 1999.

“They let me in and I spoke with about four people there. I was there for about two hours,’’ George told the Sunday Mercury.

“The only witness (for the prosecution) said she saw me at 7am but I was still in bed. I don’t get up till 9am.

“I was wearing a bright yellow fluorescent T-shirt. People should have remembered that but some of them said I was wearing a coat.”

Police launched a huge operation after the death of the TV star, but initially had few leads.

Near-neighbour George was eventually arrested and convicted of her murder in 2001.

But the Court of Appeal ordered a retrial last year and his conviction was ruled unsafe on Friday afternoon as the original trial jury was misled about a speck of brearms discharge residue found in his coat pocket.

The residue was allegedly matched to Jill’s shooting but experts later said it could have come from another source.

Crucially, the evidence was not allowed at the retrial and the prosecution relied on sightings of a man like George near the presenter’s home.

The retrial jury of eight women and four men returned the not guilty verdict after deliberating for a day and a half.

George, who lived half a mile from Jill, reportedly said after the decision: “I am overwhelmed.”

Jurors were not told that George had convictions for rape and indecent assault, had an obsession with Jill look-alike Princess Diana and once tried to break into Kensington Palace with a dagger and rope.

The former stuntman has strong links with the Midlands. In 2001, we revealed details of his bizarre relationship with Black Country teenager Margo Bovell in the early 1980s. Calling himself Steve Majors, George used to meet Margo at Walsall College of Arts and Technology and the former Rollerdrome where the two would go skating.

George, then aged 20, cheekily chatted up Margo after spotting her in the street while she was visiting her sister in London in 1980.

The naive 17-year-old was swept off her feet and they were soon having steamy sex sessions.

But her family and friends became unnerved at George’s strange behaviour when he visited her home town of Bloxwich.

The Londoner would turn up out of the blue on roller skates – claiming he was in training for his job as a stuntman. On dates in Birmingham and Wolverhampton, he often put Margo on the bus home then showed off by zooming alongside on his skates.

As well as calling himself Steve Majors – a cross between the names of actor Lee Majors and his Bionic Man screen character Steve Austin, the Million Dollar Man – George was also known as Barry Bulsara.

This was the surname of the late rock star Freddie Mercury, who he falsely claimed to be related to.

George also called himself Paul Gadd, the real name of disgraced pop singer Gary Glitter, and he also pretended he was a British karate champion.

Then in 1982, George appeared on Margo’s doorstep dressed from head-to-toe in camouflage battle fatigues and wearing the green beret of the Royal Marine Commandos

He claimed he was on leave from the Falklands War which was raging at the time. After the incident, the couple drifted apart and Margo moved to London.

Last night, police and Crown Prosecution lawyers insisted that they were right to prosecute George and said the case will now be reviewed.

But senior detectives said it was extremely unlikely a new investigation will be launched unless further information comes to light.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/i-know-who-killed-jill-dando-233533
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:28:07 AM
Barry uncle states in his book Mike’s Story - The battle to clear Barry George of the Jill Dando murder:
“On October 13th the Sunday Mirror published an exclusive article by journalist Don Hale giving an account of a special visit with Paddy Hill to see Barry. It was titled “the first prison interview” and cast very serious doubt on Barry’s ability to be the cool calculating hit man.

I thought it was a very good article, but Barry was furious as he believed he had been portrayed as a bumbling idiot. Barry can be very unforgiving so he would never let Paddy or Don visit him again.
I could appreciate how he felt even though I thought it was a very positive article.

.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=don+hale+barry+george&source=bl&ots=Osy88My2fJ&sig=ACfU3U2gnjmRc1WL2Hu3HdD7GO6Rm-3Zrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinw4SaodjhAhVP3KQKHf4iAls4FBDoATAAegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=don%20hale%20barry%20george&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:38:42 AM
Michael Burke continues:
"I thought of the allegation Michelle has made and felt a little uneasy.

.. but it made me think that what Michelle had said was not very wise. She was safely at home in Cork, while my family had to live in London, and I would be travelling over and back alone for the foreseeable future.

Relations between some members of my family became strained as most felt that as Barry was convicted and appealed we should leave it as that. But I was convinced the conviction was unsafe.

I accepted that there was a possibility that Barry was the man, but the evidence used to convict him was unconvincing.

In late October I sent a strongly worded letter to MOJO complaining about their tactics. By now the website was taking shape, and I was involved in a struggle as to what direction it should take. The webmaster Mick Lynch wanted to portray Barry as innocent but I insisted we should question the safety of the conviction, rather than call it a Miscarriage of Justice. I wanted people to judge for themselves and in the end I won out.

What tactics?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:42:51 AM
What tactics?

Tactics to publicly portray Barry George as a “bumbling idiot.”

Excerpt from Mike’s Story (Barry George’s Uncle)
“On October 13th the Sunday Mirror published an exclusive article by journalist Don Hale giving an account of a special visit with Paddy Hill to see Barry. It was titled ‘The First Prison Interview’ and cast very serious doubt on Barry’s ability to be the cool calculating hit man. I thought it was a very good article, but Barry was furious as he believed he had been portrayed as a bumbling idiot. Barry can be very unforgiving and so he would never let Paddy or Don visit him again. I could appreciate how he felt even though I thought it was a very positive article. In late October I sent a strongly worded letter to MOJO complaining about their tactics.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:55:58 AM
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mikes-Story-Battle-George-murder/dp/1907163441

This paperback by Mike Burke is a true diary account of events, following the conviction of his nephew Barry George, for the murder of Jill Dando. It covers a number of years from Barry’s arrest until his eventual release, the quashing of his conviction and a retrial. It is an emotional and very personal journey and is entirely his own work.

“In early May 2000 I visited my sister Margaret in London as part of my summer holidays. Her son Barry had called to see me on the day I arrived, but had left before I got there. Later I mentioned that to one of my brothers who explained that Barry was a little uptight as he was getting a bit of hassle from the police over the Jill Dando murder. I was puzzled, why would the police be interested in him, surely he wasn’t involved? Could he have done it? ‘No no of course not, but the silly prat has been going around talking about the murder and has got the attention of the police’. A couple of days later Margaret told me that the police had recently questioned Barry in her presence and had also searched her house. I felt glad that I hadn’t been there. Barry called around in the evening before Coronation Street ended. Margaret’s lifelong friend Annie was chatting away as she does while I was engrossed in Corrie. After a time I realised that something had changed and then I realised that Annie had stopped talking. I looked over to her and was a little surprised to see her sitting in silence, which is unusual. Barry had a meal and watched a film on Channel 5, a rather nasty film about a woman who was trapped with a murderous psychotic gunman in a camper van. At one stage she managed to get hold of a gun but could not bring herself to shoot the man in the back. ‘She knows what to do but she can’t do it’ said Barry. That sent a shiver down my spine and I stole a sideways glance at him wondering for a moment would he be able to do it, was I sitting next to a murderer?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 01:22:53 AM
Mike Bourke:
“As we walked through the fields I wondered what I should do, it was fight or flight time. I chose fight, deciding that I would not bury my head in the sand. I would try to support Barry in the assumption that he was innocent. It was to be an unpopular decision but Barry is a relative and as deserving of my support as any other. I also knew that he would not have any great family support beyond sympathy and he would need help. I can’t say that I felt greatly sympathetic towards him in an emotional way though for a time I would wake up early in the morning trying to make sense of it all.

In early ’83 his mother told me that he was in prison on remand. At his trial in the Old Bailey he pleaded guilty to a serious offence in February 1982 and got thirty months in prison. As Barry is once again trying to get on with his life I have decided not to go into the details which have received much press coverage but I do recall reading in a newspaper at the time that he initially denied it but that the detective tripped him up by asking him if he spoke any German. Barry replied ‘Ich Verstain’, (I understand). It appears that he used the same expression to the unfortunate victim who was a student studying German. So it would seem that a clever detective had no trouble in tripping him up and getting to the truth. He served his time in Wormwood Scrubbs, Brixton and Grendon Underwood prisons. I visited him a couple of times along with his mother and Eddie. He was free again by Christmas 1984 and he seemed to settle down after that. He never spoke to me about the crime and I never asked but I read her own account in 2001 following his conviction for Jill Dando’s murder, and again in 2008 when she wrote that she doubted if Barry was a killer.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 08:04:04 AM
The man accused of murdering Jill Dando told staff at a health centre that he was worried because he looked like the prime suspect and had been intimidated by the police on another occasion, the Old Bailey heard yesterday.

Barry George, 41, went to Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability (Hafad) on the day Ms Dando died in April 1999 and returned there two days later. On the first occasion, he turned up at the centre without an appointment and seemed highly agitated, the jury was told.

Elaine Hutton, the finance director of Hafad, said she had listened to parts of a conversation between George and her colleague Susan Bicknell at the office, in Greswell Street, Fulham, west London.

"I was not listening to the exact wording of the conversation between them. He was quite agitated. I was aware I might need to step in and help," said Ms Hutton.

She said George had a carrier bag of letters expressing dissatisfaction for some of the services he had received from the medical profession in general. She said her colleague had tried to stay calm and focused. She could not deal with him that day and was eventually able to placate him.

George was given an appointment for the following day, but then failed to show. However, he appeared on Wednesday April 28, two days after Ms Dando was shot.

"He said he had... gone to lay flowers at Jill's place on behalf of the church and that she was well respected in the borough," said Ms Hutton.

She said George had wanted to know the exact time of his visit to Hafad on the day Ms Dando had died. She had been unsure of the time but George had pressed her to be specific and was unhappy with her estimate. He had been agitated, saying the description of the Dando suspect matched him but that "it could be anyone".

Mrs Bicknell said George had been to the centre at 11.50am on the day Ms Dando died, 20 minutes after the shooting.

The prosecution allege that George shot Ms Dando, then changed his clothes and went to Hafad to establish an alibi. He has denied murder.

Julia Moorhouse, another witness, told the court about a chance encounter with a man that the prosecution allege was George.

Mrs Moorhouse said she had been standing on the corner of a street close to the murder scene at 12.30pm on April 26 when a man approached and started talking to her about the helicopters hovering overhead. "He said they were police helicopters. He gave details of what kind they were. He appeared to have technical knowledge... I turned to go. He came with me. I did not expect that.

"The whole situation struck me as slightly odd. He mentioned the Territorial Army. I think he may have said he had done training or was associated with it... either as an instructor or something."

The prosecution has alleged that George was obsessed with the army and weapons.

Michael Mansfield, QC, defending, said the man Mrs Moorhouse had spoken to was not George.

The trial continues.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/may/15/broadcasting.jilldando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 08:06:05 AM
Mike Bourke: Excerpts taken from the book - Mike’s Story The battle to clear Barry George of the Jill Dando murder.
“The Crown’s skeleton case was that Barry George was seen hanging around Jill Dando’s Gowan Avenue house on the morning of her murder. That he shot her shortly after 11.30 and then in order to remove the gun and any blood evidence he returned to his home a mere 600 yards away. He then changed his clothes and made his way to HAFAD, stopping to talk to a woman Julia Moorhouse, at about 12.30. He also made a mobile phone call to his service provider at 12.32. It was claimed that a blurred yellow figure caught on CCTV at 12.48 was Barry as he passed Fulham football ground on the way to the HAFAD disability advice centre, where he stopped briefly before going on to the Traffic Cars minicab office arriving there at about 13.00. He then managed to get a free cab ride at 13.15. It was claimed that Barry’s visits to HAFAD and Traffic Cars was to seek sanctuary and to create a false alibi. It was also claimed that when questioned he lied to police about his movements on the morning of the murder, that a witness identified him in Gowan Avenue prior to the murder, and that firearms discharge residue (FDR) was found in an inside pocket of a coat which he said he could have been wearing on the day of the murder.

The four main points on which the prosecution based its case were the alleged false alibi, lies told to police during questioning, the FDR, and witness identification. The defence claimed that nobody saw Barry hanging around Gowan Avenue in the half hour prior to the murder. No one identified him at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime. He could not have done the crime as he would not have had time to go home and change his clothes, having committed the crime at 11.30 and be at HAFAD at 11.50 or 12 noon. He did not possess a gun and had no access to weapons. His flat was filthy and there was no sign of any recent cleaning, for example no areas of the carpet seemed to have been cleaned.

Susan Coombe lived at an address which Barry also lived at in 1985. She described how he had replica guns which he showed to people. But she also said that there was a silver gun which he kept concealed in a shoebox. She claimed that he admitted to her that he followed women to see if they were single. Susan also confirmed that the photo of the man posing with the gun and gasmask was taken inside Barry’s home.

Richard Hughes worked from home trading in Far East stocks and shares using his home computer. He lived in the house next to Jill Dando’s. He was upstairs about to take a shower when he heard Jill’s car alarm zap and her footsteps as she walked to her door. He described her scream which he likened to somebody being surprised by someone they knew, rather than a cry of alarm. He then heard Jill’s gate clink shut and he looked out the window to see a man calmly leaving. He got a look at the side of the man’s face. The man was holding something in his hand, maybe a mobile phone, or it could have been a gun. Richard finished his shower and shortly afterwards hearing women’s voices he went downstairs and saw Jill slumped at her doorstep. Richard did not identify anybody at the live I.D. parade.

The man seen by witnesses was described as Mediterranean in appearance, dark haired with heavy eyebrows, late 30s or early 40s, approx five foot ten, stocky. There were variations in descriptions of height and skin but on the face of it there appeared to be a general consensus. I became very uneasy as I felt that the descriptions of the man described could have fitted Barry.

On Friday he was ill allegedly as a result of mistreatment by prison officers in the courts holding room. That caused long delays, to the frustration of Mr Justice Gage, who wanted to move things along. As Pownall was leaving the room during the lengthy delay he passed a private remark ‘matron is with the beleaguered’. Michelle was furious and I had to persuade her not to challenge Pownall. I was afraid we might be forced up into the public gallery if there was a scene, and the press would have loved it. But I can appreciate her anger at the pompous comment. Doctor Susan Young was surprised at Barry’s apparent mistreatment.

For the rest of May I followed the case on the news and in phone calls to Michelle who attended court every day. Barry was ill at times, suffering various ailments including apparent blindness which caused amusement amongst the press reporters who believed that he was faking. I found it hard to believe also until some years later when I experienced a nasty migraine attack which gave me an incredible fright thinking I was going blind. So perhaps his attack was genuine brought on by stress.

Barry was portrayed as a man who was familiar with firearms. He had been with the Territorial Army, had attempted to join a gun-club, and he had written details of handguns including a Bruni in his flat. The police had found advertisements in his flat for deactivated weapons showing where they could be bought but there was no evidence that he had the tools or skills to alter guns. A photograph of him wearing a gasmask and holding a handgun, finger on trigger was found by police. There was a break in the gun exposing a spring. That was said to show that he had an interest in altering guns. Barry denied during police questioning that it was him in the photograph, and claimed the gun; a blank firing replica was stolen by his friend David Dobbins. In evidence David Dobbins described an incident where Barry discharged a blank firing pistol at David’s mother’s house, frightening him. David admitted that following his frightening experience he chatted with Barry, his friend, for about an hour.

When searching Barry’s flat on 17 April 2000 Police Constable Cain had found a coat and handed it to Detective Constable Isaacs who sealed it in an exhibits bag and it was sent to a police station. Both officers gave evidence of the precautions they had taken in relation to the surgical gloves and clothing worn by them. On 24 April the coat was taken to Amelia Street Police Photographic Studio where it was removed from the sealed bag and photographed. On May 2 it was taken to the Forensic Science Laboratory. There Mr Robin Keeley, a Senior Forensic Officer specialising in FDR examined the coat. In an inside pocket he found a single particle of firearms discharge residue, 11.5 microns in size. Two FDR particles which matched each other had also been found on Jill Dando’s hair and raincoat. Keeley compared those particles with the one found in Barry’s coat and they matched. Tests were carried out to exclude other sources for the particle. In evidence Keeley said that the particle could have come from the ammunition which had killed Jill Dando or from similar ammunition. The residue would remain in a pocket indefinitely, unless the garment was disturbed. The residue would not decay evaporate or dissolve. He was asked if it was significant that only one particle was found. He replied that there was no significance; it just meant that firearms residue was present. It would identify where it came from but not how it got there.

The overall impression given was that the FDR came from the same gun which killed Jill. The only question seemed to be how it got to be in Barry’s coat pocket. That evidence would take up to three days as Mansfield grilled the police and scientists.

On the day of the murder Barry visited the Hammersmith and Fulham Advice centre, or HAFAD. He also called to a taxi cab office where he managed to cadge a free trip to the Rickett Street Colon Cancer Clinic. Two days later he re-visited HAFAD and the taxi office, asking staff to recall what he had been wearing on the previous visit. That strange behaviour was reported to the police. Barry at first told the police he did not know at what time he visited HAFAD but staff put the time at or before 12.00. Barry then claimed an alibi based on those times. If he had visited at or before 12.00 he would be ruled out as the killer, as the clothes he had on then did not match the clothes seen on the fleeing man in Gowan Avenue. He would not have had time to kill Jill at 11.30 and return home to change and still arrive at HAFAD for 12.00. Under cross examination some of the staff revised their estimate of the time of Barry’s visit but one, Susan Bicknell, was absolutely adamant that he had been there at 12.00. To counteract the HAFAD alibi the police produced Julia Moorhouse who had reported being spoken to by a man matching Barry’s description at about 12.30 on the day of the crime. Ms Moorhouse was not asked to attend an I.D. parade.

I was back at the Old Bailey on Wednesday 13th at 11.00 and I recorded it in my diary as a boring day. By now I would travel from Margaret’s alone, ahead of Michelle as I liked to get in early before the cameramen were alert. I noticed that Michelle was by now quite blasé about them but I never liked their attention.

Pownall began his closing address to the jury on Wednesday, after Mr Justice Gage ruled that the case no longer depended on the single particle of FDR residue but that it could provide support for the identification. The goalposts seemed to have been changed in the middle of the match and I thought that was very unfair. The particle was the ‘compelling evidence’ and it had formed one of the three main planks on which the case rested. I.e. witness identification, the single particle, and at what time Barry visited HAFAD on the day of the murder. It would now merely assist the jury in reaching their decision.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 09:21:58 AM
“After the Clonakilty affair the unity amongst Barry’s family supporters was fragmented and Michelle and I followed our independent paths for the rest of his incarceration and beyond. Michelle stayed within the MOJO camp which she found to be a source of help and support, and me outside but still in touch. After Barry’s conviction we were not in a position to visit him for some time and he did not contact us. I would write to him but he never replied. I had used up most of my holidays and quite a bit of special unpaid leave. Michelle had spent the whole of the trial away from her family while she attended court, and Margaret was not in a position to make the trip alone. I do not know at first-hand how he dealt with his conviction.

In his PRISON DIARY Jeffrey Archer records on Friday 20 July seeing a prisoner on exercise that looked totally lost. A fellow prisoner Gordon told Archer that it was Barry George. ‘No one in here believes he did it, including the screws’ Gordon said. Archer revealed that while his own trial was in progress he was surprised that so many senior lawyers and laymen told him that they were disturbed by the verdict. Later a prison officer revealed to Archer that he didn’t believe that Barry had shot Jill Dando. ‘He’s just too stupid’ the officer said. A prisoner called Pat told Archer how a year earlier Barry had fallen over while running in the prison sports day. Pat described Barry as a bit of a pervert but believed that he was not a murderer.

Belmarsh is a holding prison for prisoners awaiting trial so shortly after his conviction Barry was moved to HMP Whitemoor, in Cambridgeshire. We were relieved that he was not moved too far away from London. During August it was reported that David Dobbins, a friend of Barry’s who became a prosecution witness had hanged himself, preceded by his brother. I was told that David was depressed but I do not know if his giving evidence against Barry contributed to his unfortunate death. Finally on September 2nd a visiting order arrived.

A witness in the Jill Dando trial who gave important evidence against Barry George, the man convicted of the murder of the television presenter, has been found hanged at his home, it emerged yesterday.

August 2001
“David Dobbins, 30, was discovered by a relative on Thursday at his flat in Fulham, south-west London. It is understood he had been suffering from depression.

He had given evidence which showed that George was a fantasist who owned weapons which he liked to show to local children. During tense moments at the Old Bailey, he told the court how George had stormed into his home one evening dressed in combat gear and then fired at the ceiling with a pistol.

Mr Dobbins befriended George in the mid-1980s when they lived in the Stanhope Gardens Hotel, a bed and breakfast hostel in Kensington, west London. At the time Mr Dobbins was 13. George had just been released from prison after a conviction for attempted rape.

Mr Dobbins had told the trial that he knew George as Thomas Palmer, the name of an SAS soldier involved in the rescue of hostages from the Iranian embassy siege of 1980.

He told the jury that George owned an imitation Heckler and Koch MP5 machine gun, and a blank-firing handgun, as well as "a few knives".

Mr Dobbins's family moved to another address in 1986, but George continued to see them. Mr Dobbins had recalled how he heard a noise outside the basement flat and opened the door to investigate. "I saw Mr Palmer. He pushed his way in with a handgun and he discharged a shot. It was pretty scary. It was like he was trying to frighten us."

George was wearing a combat jacket, military belt and jeans, and put the gun into his belt after he fired it. The prosecution case relied on evidence that George, 41, was "obsessed" with guns and the military.

Police do not believe there are suspicious circumstances to Mr Dobbins's death, but an inquest will be held at West London coroner's court.

Scotland Yard confirmed yesterday that a body was found in a Fulham flat last week. "We are not prepared to say any more at this stage," a spokesman said.

George is appealing against his conviction.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/aug/21/broadcasting.jilldando
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 10:03:12 AM
Mike’s Story The battle to clear Barry George of the Jill Dando murder.
“Appeal 2002 One day in early July an angry Paddy Hill told me that he was finished supporting Barry, but later Moneypenny phoned to say that MOJO would still support him. I returned to work on the 5th and within the first ten minutes my vehicle lights were broken by Hurley wielding thugs. It was back to normal for me on the mean streets of Limerick. The following day Margaret told me that Barry wanted a suit for his appeal. But it was too late as the appeal was just a week away. He had to wear the clothes Margaret and Michelle provided, and he was rather cruelly described by the press as being dressed like a schoolboy.


Excerpt from Michelle Diskin Bates book Stand Against Injustice
“Before Mum’s breakdown, we had discussed buying a new outfit for Barry to deflect further misinformation being spread by unscrupulous journalists. These people exhibited absolutely no compassion for all those caught in the crossfire. Our family were terribly offended by the suggestion that Barry was some kind of oddity or vagabond. And anyway, how did this image sit with the description given of a well-dressed man seen in Gowan Avenue around the time that Jill was killed? It seemed the police wanted it both ways, and were suggesting that this criminal mastermind dressed like a tramp most of the time, but when he wanted to kill somebody, he put on his best bib and tucker and his woollen greatcoat to carry out the crime! With the thirty pounds I had left, I needed to buy food, rail travel to and from the prison, my flight back home, and also Barry’s court suit and shoes. In short, impossible. It was definitely time for prayer. Putting the banknotes on a table, I turned my attention to my Saviour, Jesus. Dear Lord Jesus, First, I come to you in praise and thanksgiving for all of the blessings you bestow upon me. I know you will always provide for my needs. I know, too, that you know the difficulties I’m facing here and I ask for your help to make the right choices. If I buy the clothes for Barry, I won’t be able to buy him shoes or buy food for myself. If I keep the money for food and train fares, I can’t dress Barry for court or buy my flight home. I can’t solve this predicament by myself, but I know you can. There is nothing you can’t do. I put my trust firmly in you. Please, Lord, give me your wisdom and guidance.

The £ 30 I had trustingly spent on Barry was returned to me fourfold! Now, not only could I get home to my family, but I could buy a small gift for my best friend and great supporter, Marianne. I would also be able to buy some of those little chocolates that the children loved so much, and for Pat, a large box of Jelly Babies, his favourite. Thirty pounds, four times over. When God provides, He does so in abundance. This was no set of coincidences, this was an example of God-incidences. ‘He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free.’ (Psalm 146: 7)
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 10:25:17 AM
“Later in the evening we had a drink with David Perrin and James Cohen. We managed to persuade Michelle not to take part in a late night talk radio show. David threw an example of a question she might face if she took part. ‘Michelle, do you accept that a rapist can graduate to murder?’ That decided the matter for Michelle and she took Margaret home. Later I became a little disturbed by something that James said. He asked me what I thought of the madness in the family.

“On Tuesday November 5th I was tempted to run from East Acton station to Margaret’s as rockets and bangers exploded all around the place. It was Guy Fawkes Day, and it felt like a battle zone. Michelle was in Birmingham with MOJO presenting their submission to the CCRC. Margaret and I met her in HMP Whitemoor the next day. Barry was very upset with Michelle because of press reports and the CCRC submission. He said that it should have been left to his solicitor to make the submission, and he feared that his prospects might now have been damaged. He said that he thought the visit by Don Hale and Paddy Hill was a private visit and he felt betrayed that it had been reported. It was a difficult visit where Barry threatened to have Michelle jailed if she did not respect his views. He no longer wanted MOJO to be involved in his situation. In time he would threaten to have us all jailed, which probably was a reflection of his frustration at not being in control of the things which concerned him.

That evening I met David Perrin in a Shepherds Bush pub where we had a nice pint of Guinness. We discussed the website and he gave me some advice on that saying that I should look at Susan May’s website. He then said that Barry’s supporters seemed to be fragmented, and suggested that it would be more effective if there was a combined united push for Barry. Good advice I thought. On Thursday Michelle and Margaret took Sheba the cat to the vet, as she had a sore mouth. In the evening I told Michelle about the planned website, and about David’s suggestion of a united front. She did not seem to be very interested. Later Hazel Keirle from MOJO phoned Michelle to make arrangements for Michelle’s next TV appearance, on SKY News. Michelle wanted them to show the videotape which I had loaned her, showing the man who was supposed to be Barry at Princess Diana’s vigil. She wanted to show how inaccurate identification can be.

I went to London on December 12 and met Pat Reynolds, the IBRG Chairman, at Margaret’s house. We discussed a campaign plan, and agreed to think things over. Pat then spoke to Michelle on the phone, but she was now tied up with MOJO and told Pat that Barry already had their support. The campaign was hampered from the word go but I was determined to push ahead and managed to persuade Pat to remain on board. Margaret and I made our Christmas
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 11:00:34 AM
but it was a clean, quick execution.

Mere speculation!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46217/Jills-death-instant.html

 
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 11:04:47 AM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46217/Jills-death-instant.html

“Taxi firm manager Ramesh Paul told the court that two days after Miss Dando's murder George came into his cab office and started talking about the killing.

"He was talking to himself and to me, saying he did not want the blame," said Mr Paul, who added: "I came to the conclusion he was in his own world."

He told the jury that on the day of the murder the same man had arrived at 1pm and asked him for a cab but said he had no money.

"I laughed - it is not me, it's the drivers, £4 is like £400 to them," Mr Paul said.

The man stayed in the waiting area looking out of the window, he said, adding: "He seemed in a bit of a hurry to go somewhere but he had no money to go there."

By a stroke of luck, Mr Paul said he received a call asking for a package to be collected from near where the customer wanted to go and told a driver to take him on the journey for free.

He saw the man again a day or two later, Mr Paul said, adding: "He came into the office. I was talking on the phone. He was asking stupid questions.

"He asked me if I remembered him, what time he came here, what he looked like, what he was wearing. I asked if I should remember. He said Yes. He was adamant."

Mr Paul said he remembered the fare and told him 1.15pm. The man asked if he could remember what he was wearing on April 26.

"When I could not remember, he started giving me colours. He told me to look up at the sky. I said blue. He said no, that was the wrong colour. Look up again.

"He kept going on about the colour of his shirt and asking what colour was the sun. I said orange or red he still said no, look again."

When Mr Paul said yellow, the man said "Yes".

Mr Paul said the man wanted him to write down the time he was at the cab office on the 26th on a card.

"I rarely do that but I was interested in answering the phone at this stage so I wrote down details and passed it through the glass," he said.

"He looked happy that I remembered the yellow shirt. He went to shake my hand but could not through the glass."

The trial was adjourned until tomorrow
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
Excerpt’s taken from Mike’s Story The battle to clear Barry George of the Jill Dando murder
“Sunday was rather wet and windy. In the morning I met David James Smith in Mario’s café in East Acton. We had a good chat and David shared many of my doubts surrounding Barry’s conviction. However he felt that Barry was guilty as he had spoken with Hamish Campbell and found him to be convincing.

“The Case of Barry George by Scott Lomax was published on the 27th, and he sent me a signed copy. He argued the case for Barry’s innocence well and I thought it was a very positive development. The book had a photo of Barry on the cover which I had lent to Scott with permission to use. On June 26th the Daily Express did a two page spread on Scott’s book. A couple of days later Michelle featured in an Irish evening paper, and appeared to dismiss the value of Scott’s book, saying that a book would not get Barry out. I was disappointed at the dismissal of what was a very well argued case by a young writer who was supportive of Barry, who needed all the support he could get.

“On September 5th I read an e-mail from Scott Lomax telling me about a BBC reporter, Raphael Rowe, who hoped to make a programme about Barry. I made some discreet enquiries and I was told that ‘He is a good guy, genuine’. I was happy with that recommendation and decided to contact him. I phoned him the next day and we had a good long chat. He was quite up to speed having looked at the websites and appeal court links. I agreed to contact Barry and his solicitor to see if they might cooperate with a TV programme. I later spoke to Pat Reynolds who was very enthusiastic when I mentioned Panorama, saying that Panorama could be seen as a turning point, the beginning of the end. I next visited Barry on Friday October 8th. I was suffering from a heavy cold, and family tensions were again running high, otherwise the visit went ok. On the way back to East Acton I saw on the headlines that the hostage Ken Bigley had been killed in Iraq. I got fish and chips and had quiet a miserable evening. ‘Why the hell am I doing this?’ I wondered, not for the first time.

“That evening I met David James Smith at Starbucks in Hammersmith, where we discussed aspects of Jill Dando’s murder which concerned me. David believed that I was on the wrong track but I was convinced that more people could have known of Jill’s intention to visit her house on the day of her murder than we were led to believe. I also wondered how many people might have had keys to her house.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 11:31:22 AM

You cannot say that someone isn't innocent enough just because you don't like him.

Until proven otherwise, I firmly believe the Barry George campaign to be a total farce just like Simon Hall’s turned out to be!
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 11:50:45 AM
“There is a risk that the objectivity and impartiality of forensic science experts is being undermined by cognitive bias, according to new guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator Dr Gill Tully (pictured). This raises important issues for both prosecutors and defence practitioners.
Cognitive bias – subconscious personal bias – has been seen as a potential issue within criminal justice systems since the 1970s. But it is now being red-flagged after some high-profile cases, including false-positive fingerprint identifications, brought the issue into sharp relief.
Countering the risks has significant consequences for the way experts work with the police and prosecutors. It also opens up potential challenges for defence practitioners, who have been criticised in the past for not challenging expert evidence robustly enough.
The guidance, published as an appendix to the regulator’s codes of practice and conduct, sets out examples of good practice in specific subject areas associated with forensic science examina- tions at crime scenes and within laboratories.
Cognitive bias can take many forms, including confirmation bias, whereby people test hypoth- eses by looking for confirming evidence rather than for potentially conflicting evidence. There are also ‘role effects’, where scientists identify themselves as part of either the prosecution or defence teams.
The ‘most powerful means of safeguarding’ against that, the guidance says, is to ensure that the practitioner conducting the analysis only has information about the case that is relevant to the analysis.
However, it accepts that case assessment, targeting and interpretation may be hampered without relevant information. And it warns that risks are higher when practitioners are inexperi- enced, unmonitored and left to adopt their own approach, and when checking is less rigorous and/or conducted collaboratively.
The leading expert in cognitive bias, Dr Itiel Dror, senior cognitive neuroscience researcher at UCL, has held workshops for senior judges, while laboratories and police forces are starting to provide their forensic examiners with cogni- tive training.
He stresses that this is not an ethical issue – ‘experts are not letting this happen intentionally’ – but they must try to minimise the risk of cognitive contamination as they do physical contamination. ‘By telling an expert there is a suspect, for instance, the expert then works from the suspect to the evidence and not from the evidence to the suspect,
’hetoldtherecentBondSolonexpert witness conference.
However, he said lawyers like to give informa- tion to experts. ‘To be honest, they don’t want your opinion, they are building a case and they want to recruit you,’ he said.
‘I did a case where the lawyers wanted me to get involved. I explained why I didn’t want the information but they forgot accidentally and sent me irrelevant information. I didn’t need to know the details of the rape or that the person had been charged before. I am not accusing them of intentionally trying to manipulate me but, regardless, they contaminated me.’
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/download?ac=15591

Barry George’s legal team clearly recruited their medical experts to help portray George the way they did. I’m not convinced by anything I’ve read to suggest George incapable of murder because these experts would have quite obviously been contaminated by confirmation bias. There was nothing in place to ensure this didn’t happen. And what’s the betting the CCRC’s brief to these so called experts proves this to be so.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 12:02:13 PM
Several of my earlier posts on this thread have been removed and/or edited however it’s clear to me now as it was back then that lessons have not been learned following the unravelling of Simon Hall’s factual guilt for the murder of Joan Albert.

Excerpt taken from Forward by Dr Michael Naughton - Stand Against Injustice by Michelle Diskin Bates
“In terms of the comprehensive chronology of Barry George’s wrongful conviction, it provides a rare insight into the workings of the criminal justice system that lays bare how its operating notion of “justice” jars with the widely held belief (myth) that the core function of the criminal justice system is to protect the public from the harm of acts labelled crime, by convicting the factually guilty (i.e. those who actually committed the offence), whilst guarding against the wrongful conviction of the factually innocent (i.e. ensuring that those who did not commit the offence are not convicted).

The only person who knows whether or not Barry George is factually innocent is Barry George! As I see it, given his history there’s no reason to suggest him incapable of murder.

This thread, along with Michelle Diskin Bates book should be re-titled “The Emancipation of Barry George!

She claims in her book Barry has never really been free and I’m inclined to agree but for differing reasons.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 18, 2019, 01:28:11 PM
Barry George’s legal team clearly recruited their medical experts to help portray George the way they did. I’m not convinced by anything I’ve read to suggest George incapable of murder because these experts would have quite obviously been contaminated by confirmation bias. There was nothing in place to ensure this didn’t happen. And what’s the betting the CCRC’s brief to these so called experts proves this to be so.

November 01, 2015
Cognitive Bias and Its Impact on Expert Witnesses and the Court
By Itiel E. Dror, Justice Bridget M. McCormack, and Jules Epstein

Disclaimer: This article reflects the position of the authors and does not reflect or represent any government office, agency or other institution.

“Courts rely on expert witnesses and mostly assume that they provide impartial and objective evidence. Yet cognitive science shows that even the most dedicated and committed experts are influenced, without even realizing it, by factors unrelated to the data relevant to form their expert conclusion. For example, it has been demonstrated that experts’ conclusions on whether crime scene evidence was left by a specific person were influenced by whether they were told that the suspect confessed or, alternatively, that the suspect could not have committed the crime because of a rock-solid alibi. Because juries and judges often depend on reports and testimony from experts it is important to understand the limits and potential vulnerabilities of those witnesses. At the same time it is critical to find ways to increase and improve the contribution experts make to the fact-finding process.

“One set of concerns relates to experts who may overstate the evidence. This can occur for two main reasons: First, experts may be over confident and overestimate their own abilities. This results from meta-cognition: The ability to ‘know what you know and know what you do not know’ – which is an area that humans are not especially good at. Second, although experts share an understanding that it is their duty to be independent and uninfluenced by the exigencies of litigation, and to be objective and unbiased, experts are most often recruited by one side of the adversarial system, and work within the team and objectives of that side. This places many experts in a non-neutral environment and posture, and can subconsciously influence their perception and judgments.

Another set of concerns is that in most domains expert evidence is simply not purely objective and scientific. For example, the domain may not have sufficiently detailed methodologies and objective quantification instrumentation. Therefore most “expert” evidence relies on interpretation and judgment, and includes subjective elements.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/judicial/publications/judges_journal/2015/fall/cognitive_bias_and_its_impact_on_expert_witnesses_and_the_court/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 08:30:58 AM
Alison Hoad encountered George in 1997 when he offered to show her the way to audition premises where she was taking her young son.

On the way he said he had been to court to sort out the will of Freddie Mercury, she said.

"He talked at length about things he had done with Freddie Mercury. He described parties he had been to with him. He said he ran the Queen fan club."

Mrs Hoad said he offered to show her the club offices which he said were nearby, the court was told. Mrs Hoad declined.

As they walked up Munster Avenue in Fulham - near where Miss Dando lived - "he said he had a friend who lived in one of the roads, a very special lady. He intimated she was well-known."

Mrs Hoad said she thought he was inviting questions, but because she felt uncomfortable in his presence she did not pursue it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-46575/Dando-accused-said-hed-help-police-solve-murder.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 11:16:32 AM
Team Barry 2008 by Mike Bourke, Uncle of Barry George - taken from “Mike’s Story the battle to clear Barry George of the Jill Dando murder https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mikes-Story-Battle-George-murder/dp/1907163441

“Jill Dando was one of their own, and it would be naïve for anybody to think that the media would ever forgive Barry for the crime, which he had been charged, convicted, and ultimately cleared of, unless perhaps the real killer was identified as in the Rachel Nickell case. If some of Barry’s supporters expected a sympathetic reaction from them then they were sadly mistaken, and the immediate selling of his story to News International to the exclusion of others would not have helped matters. On Saturday August 2nd the Daily Mail reported that a ‘police source’ claimed that Alan Farthing and the Dando family wanted the murder case to remain closed. I thought that a little puzzling, if true. Barry’s 1982 victim’s story was again published, 26 years after the event, for which Barry paid the price handed down by the courts. The Telegraph claimed that a feud had erupted between Barry’s supporters and Scotland Yard. William Clegg QC accused the police of ‘closing their minds’ to other suspects. He said the police and CPS needed to keep an open mind. ‘I think they did close their minds after the arrest of Barry George, yes’. Detectives were reported to be livid at the criticism. A Scotland Yard source said it was to be expected that people connected with George were now coming out to attack the police. Commander Simon Foy, head of the Met’s Homicide Command said ‘We are disappointed by today’s verdict… however we respect the verdict of the court’. I was quoted as saying that Barry would be like a fish out of water if he were to live in Ireland, and that he would not return to Fulham. Some East Acton neighbours said that they would be happy if he were to live with his mother there. I do not agree that there is a feud with the police but I do believe that they missed something vital in the early days of the investigation. They may have placed too much reliance on the computer HOLMES rather then spending a little more time at the crime scene interviewing witnesses, preserving evidence, following up leads and kicking down doors without undue delay. I would call that constructive criticism. It was pointed out by John McVicar that under Scottish law the jury would have had the option of a ‘not proven’ verdict. ‘Not Proven’ is basically an acquittal and was described in 1824 by novelist and Sheriff Sir Walter Scott as ‘That b........ verdict, not proven’. I feel it was a little mean of McVicar to try and muddy the waters with such tripe, which has no relevance in English law. Barry was found Not Guilty. What could be clearer? In the afternoon I met Scott for the last time in Victoria where we had an afternoon drink in the Shakespeare pub. At about 15.00 Michelle phoned me from the hotel saying that they had just finished the interviews and asked me what I was doing. I said I was with Scott but we could not talk further as the line went dead. At about 22.00 she again phoned me and asked if I knew that Scott had written an article for the Sunday Mirror. I explained that Scott was a writer and so it was to be expected that he might write something as he was also outside the Old Bailey when she and MOJO were speaking to the media. She said that Barry could lose money as a result and in the background I could hear him speaking quietly. But nobody had requested that I or Scott should remain silent. I later heard that there was consternation at the News of the World when it was realised that the Sunday Mirror was running a Barry George story ahead of their ‘World Exclusive’. I had to laugh at that remembering the Clonakilty affair of July 2001. It wasn’t revenge but it felt sweet nonetheless. On Sunday morning I was listening to the radio and heard that just a few weeks prior to Jill Dando’s death her agent Jon Roseman had finished writing a novel about a showbusiness agent whose male clients are murdered causing the agent to turn detective. The police interviewed Jon and the book titled GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS was never published. I thought that was one weird story, stranger than fiction. I went to a café with a couple of friends for breakfast, and bought a few newspapers. The headlines hit me like a slap in the face. The News of the World article was prefaced with the warnings, OUR LAWYERS ARE WATCHING’. They described Barry as a ‘BUG-EYED ODD-BALL.’ They claimed he confessed: ‘’ I didn’t kill Jill Dando-because I was stalking ANOTHER woman.’’ He was shown posing with the horrible prison issue plastic bag which I had concealed when entering the hotel. In their ‘World Exclusive’ he was quoted as saying ‘After leaving HAFAD I bumped into a woman who was later a prosecution witness and said I was stalking her… That was at 12.33pm…’ That was obviously a reference to Julia Moorhouse who he had always denied meeting. He denied being the man in the photo wearing a gas mask and brandishing a gun. At one time he had told me that it was him in the photo and at another he denied it. The police said that he had admitted to them during questioning that it was him and I accept that it was. He claimed to be a Leeds United fan since 1972 and I recall him saying to Eddie in the mid ‘70s that they were his favourite team. Eddie had laughed then thinking that he was a fan just because Leeds were then the league champions. Under the headline ‘We didn’t just nab the local nutter’ retired detective inspector Ian Horrocks who was second in command of the murder investigation said he accepted the result of the retrial, but that he had agreed with the first jury’s verdict. He claimed that they had carried out a thorough investigation and eliminated all suspects apart from one-Barry George. The article then claimed that there was an uncomfortable incident at the hotel where Barry allegedly acted in a potentially indecent manner targeting Susan Young. (Dr Young would later confirm to me that she never once felt threatened or unsafe with Barry) In an article by Lucy Panton Susan was reported as being convinced that he was not capable of carrying out an execution killing. As I looked over the papers I felt nauseous, broke out in a sweat and had to push my breakfast away, I felt quite ill and it was not Guinness related. Our great victory now seemed hollow and I later said to David James Smith that it seemed like we had won the battle but lost the war. The Sunday Mirror ‘Exclusive’ had the independent article by Scott Lomax which was much more sympathetic towards Barry, though perhaps not entirely accurate. I was later told that there were threats of legal action over the article and I let it be known that if so I would be a witness for the defendants. Fortunately that Pandora’s Box was never opened. In the Mail on Sunday Jon Roseman revealed that he had never believed that Barry was the killer, instead thinking that Jill was shot by the Serbs. Overall much of the press coverage seemed to insinuate that Barry got away with it, but that he was really guilty. That would seem to reflect the police response. I saw just a little of the SKY News interview interview but I was not impressed by what I saw and heard. It seemed to me as if Barry was reciting from a script. I almost laughed as he earnestly said that he couldn’t begin to understand what the Dando family was going through. It just didn’t sound like something which he would say without being prompted, I felt they were not his words. I thought of the ‘idiot cards’ used by the BBC to prompt their interviewers on live shows such as ’Wogan’ back in the mid ‘80s. David James Smith later described the interview as cringe making and I have to agree. Kay Burley appeared kind and sympathetic while Michelle smiled sweetly as Barry struggled to find the word ‘foreman’, prompted gently by Kay. I felt that those media interviews were a mistake and damaged his chances of attaining public acceptance. Within two days he had been transformed from tragic miscarriage of justice victim deserving of some sympathy into something much less savoury. When I opened the JfB e-mails I saw nasty derogatory messages which were intended for Michelle, something which had rarely ever happened up to this. One told her to take her lovely brother to Ireland and to keep him there. That is the sanitised version. It was quite a contrast from the reaction which followed his 2007 victory in the appeal court. I felt quite down in the dumps at the way things had suddenly turned around, and what should have been a joyful period at the successful end of the struggle instead seemed to have become sordid, unpleasant. Later on that dreary  Sunday I called around to Margaret’s but she hadn’t returned home. I dropped in a letter for Barry with some advice and offering him the opportunity of cooperating with this book but he never responded, I do not know if he even got to see it. Later another relative told me that Michelle Margaret and Barry were going away for a while to an undisclosed location. That night I endured a horrible ear bashing from a person on the outer fringes of the family who said that the latest jury’s verdict did not convince him. It was with a sense of relief that I left London to go home on Monday, with 48 trips to the UK including 36 prison visits behind me. I was pleased to read along the way that there would be a police review of the case by the Met but I would have preferred if an outside force were to conduct it. After I got home I read in some paper that Barry and family were on the Isle of Wight where Michelle introduced him to Sion Jenkins. The IPCC needed to know if I wanted to pursue my complaint but I did not now wish to have any further involvement and so I dropped it. Eaten bread is quickly forgotten and neither I nor my fellow supporters would see or hear from Barry again. I felt quite bitter about it for a long while, and I was not alone in feeling like that. Some people put their professional reputations on the line and got no thanks for their efforts. Scott later told me that JfB’s website had received 978 hits on August 1st, 533 on the 2nd, and 369 on the 3rd. On October 1st I shut it down. It was now open season on Barry and the press set about destroying any hope of him settling into any kind of normal life in his home city of London. I watched dispassionately as his reputation, such as it was, nosedived over the last days of 2008 under a welter of tabloid fantasy. They ran stories on what he ate, what bookshops he visited, his temporary accommodation. They claimed incorrectly that he was stalking a nurse, that Sky’s Kay Burley was frightened sick by him, that he was interested in Cheryl Cole of X Factor, that he was involved with the partner of a convicted killer etc. To make things even better a ‘spokesman’ for him allegedly confirmed some of those manufactured stories. Pat Reynolds said to me one day: ‘with friends like those who needs enemies?’ It was a little sad to see the end results of the long hard battle and one day a despairing Margaret said to me that it was now worse than when he was in prison. In an October 10 feature in the Daily Mail David Jones summed up the whole sorry state of affairs. He described how Jill’s grave had been a haven of peace for Jack Dando, aged 90, and her brother Nigel, but that now Barry was planning to visit it. Singh Clair, described as Barry’s spokesman confirmed that. Nigel Dando said that he would not object to the visit: ‘It might give Mr George cause to ponder and reflect’, he said. The article described how others in ‘Team Barry’ included his sister, his mother, friend Robert Charig, and Sion Jenkins was described as a fringe member. Then there was the body charged with monitoring Barry and smoothing his path back into society under a Multi Agency Public Protection Agreement. (MAPPA)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ltgorwROQfwC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=Then+there+was+the+body+charged+with+monitoring+Barry+and+smoothing+his+path+back+into+society+under+a+Multi+Agency+Public+Protection+Agreement&source=bl&ots=Osy89OF-cJ&sig=ACfU3U0zgkLRZxktkcCyj-B_-VTf-1st0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP_uOK-dvhAhWssKQKHT4IBzYQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Then%20there%20was%20the%20body%20charged%20with%20monitoring%20Barry%20and%20smoothing%20his%20path%20back%20into%20society%20under%20a%20Multi%20Agency%20Public%20Protection%20Agreement&f=false
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 11:59:56 AM
September 10, 2013 at 10:04 am
“As a family member of a terrible miscarriage of justice, the victim being Barry George, convicted of the murder of Jill Dando; the Simon Hall confession is a concern because it is already so difficult for true MOJs to be believed by the public; this confession damages the credibility of all those still fighting for justice.
https://www.thejusticegap.com/simon-hall-confession-a-time-to-take-stock/

“Michelle Diskin Bates has gone on to become a standard bearer for miscarriages of justice. We don’t need her to misdirect justice, however. Her credibility has recently taken a U turn; she has taken on the “plight” of the mass murderer Jeremy Bamber. She is now a respected “patron” and part of his naïve campaign team.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 12:40:06 PM
”Julie Etchingham looks into the murder of Jill Dando, who was shot dead on her doorstep in April 1999 – a case that has baffled police for two decades

“On 26 April 1999, journalist and TV presenter Jill Dando was shot dead in broad daylight on the doorstep of her Fulham home in London.

A neighbour with learning difficulties, Barry George, was wrongfully imprisoned for her murder for seven years.

After his release the case was reopened but there have been no new arrests since then.

Her death shocked and saddened the nation, yet, 20 years later, who pulled the trigger, and why, remains a mystery.

This film, presented by Julie Etchingham, revisits the crime scene, and talks to people who knew Jill well. Featuring new and exclusive interviews with one of Jill Dando’s best friends, Sir Cliff Richard, as well as Barry George and his sister Michelle, the programme also reveals new information found in boxes of evidence from the first trial.

Cliff Richard provides a vivid insight into his friend, who he met after discovering she was a fan. The legendary singer was helping her plan her upcoming wedding to doctor Alan Farthing.


Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/events/jill-dando-the-20-year-mystery-25-april-19/#fliSFi4EIS2qlPkI.99
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 12:41:10 PM
”Julie Etchingham looks into the murder of Jill Dando, who was shot dead on her doorstep in April 1999 – a case that has baffled police for two decades

“On 26 April 1999, journalist and TV presenter Jill Dando was shot dead in broad daylight on the doorstep of her Fulham home in London.

A neighbour with learning difficulties, Barry George, was wrongfully imprisoned for her murder for seven years.

After his release the case was reopened but there have been no new arrests since then.

Her death shocked and saddened the nation, yet, 20 years later, who pulled the trigger, and why, remains a mystery.

This film, presented by Julie Etchingham, revisits the crime scene, and talks to people who knew Jill well. Featuring new and exclusive interviews with one of Jill Dando’s best friends, Sir Cliff Richard, as well as Barry George and his sister Michelle, the programme also reveals new information found in boxes of evidence from the first trial.

Cliff Richard provides a vivid insight into his friend, who he met after discovering she was a fan. The legendary singer was helping her plan her upcoming wedding to doctor Alan Farthing.


Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/events/jill-dando-the-20-year-mystery-25-april-19/#fliSFi4EIS2qlPkI.99

Do they mean wrongly convicted?

Barry George has yet to prove beyond all reasonable doubt he was wrongly imprisoned.

In an interview with Radio 5 live Breakfast, Mr George's sister Michelle Bates said: "In the British justice system you are innocent until proven guilty.
"To say that Barry should prove his innocence after his conviction was quashed is ridiculous. There is no court in the land where you can prove your innocence.
"When you've had your whole life ripped to shreds, and you have been so hugely damaged just from being in the environment of a prison, you come out and there is no assistance given to you, no counselling. What about Susan Young?
"You have to find a way to build a life from the ashes of what you had."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31578422

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.
He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.

https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/

"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 01:11:40 PM
Do they mean wrongly convicted?

Barry George has yet to prove beyond all reasonable doubt he was wrongly imprisoned.

In an interview with Radio 5 live Breakfast, Mr George's sister Michelle Bates said: "In the British justice system you are innocent until proven guilty.
"To say that Barry should prove his innocence after his conviction was quashed is ridiculous. There is no court in the land where you can prove your innocence.
"When you've had your whole life ripped to shreds, and you have been so hugely damaged just from being in the environment of a prison, you come out and there is no assistance given to you, no counselling. What about Susan Young?
"You have to find a way to build a life from the ashes of what you had."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31578422

It has to be seen in context,' Young said. 'He had complex problems. He was clearly an isolated, lonely man who would wander around the streets of Fulham without human contact. His days were spent interacting with clinics, hospitals, housing associations, the council and libraries. By claiming to be ill he would feel cared for and feel someone was giving him attention.'
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/03/jilldando.mentalhealth

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 01:46:08 PM
It has to be seen in context,' Young said. 'He had complex problems. He was clearly an isolated, lonely man who would wander around the streets of Fulham without human contact. His days were spent interacting with clinics, hospitals, housing associations, the council and libraries. By claiming to be ill he would feel cared for and feel someone was giving him attention.'
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/03/jilldando.mentalhealth

I’d be interested to hear if the experts ever discussed Barry George and perspecticide
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 02:46:40 PM
So it does indeed appear that after all his hard work, Barry George’s uncle was dropped like a lead weight following the moment his nephew was released from custody.

The notorious photograph taken of Barry George and Susan Young in the black taxi doesn’t show that uncle Mike was sat opposite.

Following her brothers release, Michelle Diskin Bates claims in her book to have had a discussion with the family on what to do next. This isn’t actually quite true, she omits to tell her readers that she totally blanked her uncle Mike and withheld the trip to the Isle of Wight.

Mike Bourke states:
‘After I got home I read in some paper that Barry and family were on the Isle of Wight where Michelle introduced him to Sion Jenkins. Eaten bread is quickly forgotten and neither I nor my fellow supporters would see or hear from Barry again. I felt quite bitter about it for a long while, and I was not alone in feeling like that. Some people put their professional reputations on the line and got no thanks for their efforts. The IPCC needed to know if I wanted to pursue my complaint but I did not now wish to have any further involvement and so I dropped it

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=39.0
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 05:34:43 PM
“Barry George, who was cleared of murdering TV presenter Jill Dando, accepted substantial undisclosed libel damages today over claims that he had pestered women he was obsessed with.

Mr George, who was acquitted of the crime after a retrial in August last year, was at London's High Court with his sister Michelle Diskin, who led the campaign to prove his innocence after his 2001 conviction, for the brief hearing before Mr Justice Eady.

He said afterwards: "I am pleased that the matter between myself and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following a successful mediation without the need for litigation."

His counsel, Gordon Bishop, told the court that Mr George had brought the action over a number of articles in The Sun and the News of the World between August and November last year.

He said that News Group had withdrawn the "false allegations" and apologised for making them.

It had agreed to pay him substantial damages and all his legal costs.

Mr Bishop said that immediately after his acquittal, Mr George was interviewed by News of the World reporters and the following day by Kay Burley for Sky TV.

"Mr George agreed to give those interviews because he knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press as quickly as possible in the hope that he would then be left in peace to move on with his private life."

On August 2 2008, The Sun published articles about the retrial and Mr George, which described a number of matters that had been kept from the jury during the retrial.

Counsel said that News Group now recognised that those articles would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal.

"The defendant accepts that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise."

The following day, the News of the World carried a report of the interviews given by Mr George in which he stated that at the time of the murder he was in a disability centre.

Mr Bishop said: "He also said that an hour later he was in conversation with a woman in the street who became a prosecution witness.

"Although he accepted he was paying possibly unwanted attention to her, she never expressed that to him.

"The headline for the article was 'I didn't kill Jill Dando... I was stalking someone else at the time". The defendant accepts that Mr George never made that statement."

Mr Bishop said various allegations were made in both newspapers in October 2008.

These included that Mr George had become obsessed with Kay Burley, that he pestered a woman whose advert about a dog he had answered, and that he became obsessed with Pam Wright, fiancee of Steve Wright, the Suffolk Strangler.

"The defendant now accepts that, although on one occasion Mr George did cycle to Sky TV studios to try to collect a tape of his interview with Kay Burley, Mr George did not pose a threat and was not obsessed with her, nor did he pester any woman who had a dog for sale, nor did he become obsessed with Pam Wright."

News Group's solicitor Ben Beabey said: "The defendant takes this oppportunity to correct matters and to apologise to Mr George for any hurt and distress he has felt."

Ms Diskin said outside court: "The war was won last August. There may be a few battles to come, but the war has been won. We are happy about that."

Her brother has launched separate High Court proceedings challenging the continued surveillance of his movements, despite his acquittal.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/barry-george-accepts-libel-damages-6779775.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 07:14:25 PM
In contrast to Michelle Diskin Bates book, I have found Michael Bourke’s account far more accurate and objective.

He comes across as a genuine individual. Was sad to read about Shannon in the epilogue
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 19, 2019, 07:27:06 PM

Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀
@Michelle_Diskin
·
Apr 17
NOTICE: I do not ask for a speaking engagement fee, but for a donation to MOJO. This is to say thanks for all the work they did, at no cost to us, when we were battling miscarriage of justice.
Need a speaker? See flyer on my profile page


What about Mike and all the work he did?
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 08:05:21 AM
He comes across as a genuine individual. Was sad to read about Shannon in the epilogue

Mike Bourke:
“On the 21st my brother who first informed me of Barry’s involvement died. That was a sad event but it was good that he saw the shame of the murder conviction at least partly lifted from our family.

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 10:05:17 AM
“Four million people tuned into BBC One last night for a documentary, 20 years on, looking at the murder of TV presenter and newsreader Jill Dando.
Dando, who was known for her work on Crimewatch, was shot and killed on the doorstep of her home in the middle of the day in April 1999.
It remains one of Britain's most high-profile unsolved killings.
Early reviews have described the documentary as "sensitive" and "powerful" but lacking answers.
The Independent gave the show the full five stars, saying it was "sensitively produced" and was "a fitting and balanced tribute."
It adds the documentary "explains the pessimism of detective Hamish Campbell - who doesn't think the mystery will ever be solved - with the help of interviews with Dando's friends and family, and original police decision logs."
The Telegraph (behind a pay wall) gave the show four stars, describing it as "a powerful re-examination" but suggesting "a distinct lack of answers."
Notable by its absence was an interview with Barry George, who spent eight years in jail for her murder before having his conviction overturned in 2008.
Explaining why, a BBC spokesperson said: "Barry George's arrest, conviction, appeal, retrial and acquittal are addressed in the film with archive footage to recount the events.
"It was not necessary to have a present day interview with Mr George as this film set out to tell the wider context of Jill's death and the fact her murder remains unsolved.
"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
The Guardian wrote the film was "more moving for its spareness, leaving the talking to Dando's friends and family."
In its review, The Times opted for four stars but said the show contained "no sensational revelations, just sad frustration."
Ahead of the show airing, the much-loved late presenter's brother, Nigel Dando - who learned of his younger sister's death 20 years ago from a TV news bulletin - told BBC Bristol he remains hopeful that one day the case will be solved.
Mr Dando said: "I will eventually find answers... no matter how long it takes.
"At the moment these questions are still open-ended and still haven't been answered."
He added that he wanted to ask the killer, if he or she was ever found, why they did it.
"It's such a pointless thing to have happened.
"I believe there was no reason, it was just an act of random brutality and Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The Murder of Jill Dando is now available on iPlayer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
“Four million people tuned into BBC One last night for a documentary, 20 years on, looking at the murder of TV presenter and newsreader Jill Dando.
Dando, who was known for her work on Crimewatch, was shot and killed on the doorstep of her home in the middle of the day in April 1999.
It remains one of Britain's most high-profile unsolved killings.
Early reviews have described the documentary as "sensitive" and "powerful" but lacking answers.
The Independent gave the show the full five stars, saying it was "sensitively produced" and was "a fitting and balanced tribute."
It adds the documentary "explains the pessimism of detective Hamish Campbell - who doesn't think the mystery will ever be solved - with the help of interviews with Dando's friends and family, and original police decision logs."
The Telegraph (behind a pay wall) gave the show four stars, describing it as "a powerful re-examination" but suggesting "a distinct lack of answers."
Notable by its absence was an interview with Barry George, who spent eight years in jail for her murder before having his conviction overturned in 2008.
Explaining why, a BBC spokesperson said: "Barry George's arrest, conviction, appeal, retrial and acquittal are addressed in the film with archive footage to recount the events.
"It was not necessary to have a present day interview with Mr George as this film set out to tell the wider context of Jill's death and the fact her murder remains unsolved.
"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
The Guardian wrote the film was "more moving for its spareness, leaving the talking to Dando's friends and family."
In its review, The Times opted for four stars but said the show contained "no sensational revelations, just sad frustration."
Ahead of the show airing, the much-loved late presenter's brother, Nigel Dando - who learned of his younger sister's death 20 years ago from a TV news bulletin - told BBC Bristol he remains hopeful that one day the case will be solved.
Mr Dando said: "I will eventually find answers... no matter how long it takes.
"At the moment these questions are still open-ended and still haven't been answered."
He added that he wanted to ask the killer, if he or she was ever found, why they did it.
"It's such a pointless thing to have happened.
"I believe there was no reason, it was just an act of random brutality and Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The Murder of Jill Dando is now available on iPlayer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970

The Murder of Jill Dando, BBC1

“The Murder of Jill Dando took us – quietly, carefully and unsensationally – through what remains an extraordinary, and unsolved, case. The programme wisely decided to keep out of the way and gave us an hour that was all the more moving for its spareness.”
Lucy Mangan, The Guardian

“An anti-sensationalist retelling of a story that has provoked no end of sensationalism. If the film did anything, even with its sober recap of the twists and turns of the inquiry, it was simply to remind us how this murder case was as deeply strange as it was shocking.”
James Jackson, The Times

“The strength of the film was in director Marcus Plowright’s sensitive interviews with friends, colleagues and family, as well as with the oft-criticised and clearly still rankled detectives. Given that the film had to serve as both tribute and re-examination of the crime, it was lucid and powerful. But there remained an impression that there was more to say.”
Chris Harvey, The Telegraph

“This was a deeply frustrating documentary. Nothing was offered in the way of new evidence. All the show achieved was to remind us what a marvellous broadcaster she was — and how she has never really been replaced.”
Christopher Stevens, Daily Mail
https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/tv-critics/the-murder-of-jill-dando/5138260.article
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 10:40:21 AM
Boyd Hilton.
“It's 20 years this week since the death of TV presenter Jill Dando, so it's no wonder ITV is following on from BBC1’s  recent The Murder of Jill Dandowith its own documentary. Where the BBC programme meticulously avoided any kind of sensationalist tone, this one has some fairly melodramatic music and narration, but nevertheless has new access to the case files, and catches up with Barry George, who was wrongly convicted of the crime, as well as some of Jill’s close friends, including Sir Cliff Richard.
Julie Etchingham who knew Dando when they worked together at the bbc does a good job of putting the truly shocking story in context.

Thursday 25/04/19
Jill Dando: The 20 Year Mystery (ITV, 9pm)
Richard Jones

“Tomorrow marks the 20-year anniversary of Jill Dando’s death. But two decades on, the murder of the much-loved TV presenter remains unsolved, and her killer is still at large.
Following on from the BBC film earlier this month, this documentary, the latest in ITV’s Crime and Punishment season, sees reporter Julie Etchingham look deeper into one of the highest-profile murder cases of modern times.
Jill, from Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, was one of the best-known faces on British television during the 1990s.
She presented the news, and from 1995 onwards, was the host of Crimewatch. In 1997, she was awarded the BBC Personality of the Year.
On April 26, 1999, Jill was shot dead on the doorstep of her home in Fulham, West London. She was 37 years old.
Her body was discovered by neighbour Helen Doble, and forensic studies showed she was killed by a single shot to her temple fired from a 9mm semi-automatic pistol.
Neighbours did not hear the gunshot and the only confirmed sighting of the killer was by Jill’s next-door neighbour Richard Hughes, who described a six-foot-tall white man aged around 40 walking away from the scene.
Within six months of the murder, more than 2,500 people had been spoken to and police had taken more than 1,000 statements.
Eventually, attention was focused on a man who lived about half a mile from her home, who had a history of stalking women and sexual offences.
Following a trial at the Old Bailey, Barry George was convicted of the crime, however, after eight years in prison, he was acquitted.
The case was reopened, but there have been no new arrests since then.
Now with access to hundreds of documents and photos, Etchingham reveals the theories and leads related to the case which have mystified the police for two decades.
The programme includes interviews with one of Jill’s best friends, as well as George and his sister Michelle.
One of the first theories to gain traction focused on Dando’s job presenting Crimewatch.
Some speculated that her visible role on a show that had led to countless criminals ending up behind bars made her a target.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by killing Dando.
Another theory again argues that Jill was targeted for her Crimewatch job, but the establishment did track down the killer.
Wayne Aird, who was serving a life sentence in prison for killing a man two months after Dando’s shooting, reportedly confessed to being part of what he said was an "establishment cover-up".
Other possible explanations have related to Dando’s attempts to expose a VIP paedophile ring at the BBC, and the scenario that an obsessed member of her fanbase was responsible for her death.
Finally, in the days and weeks leading up to Dando’s assassination, Nato forces were bombing Serbia as part of the Kosovo War.
A man with an Eastern European accent called the BBC the day after the shooting and claimed that it was a revenge killing.
Over the past two decades, it has become increasingly doubtful that Jill’s killer will be brought to justice.
As her brother Nigel Dando said in an interview on Lorraine a few weeks ago: "I doubt we will ever know now because of the passage of time."
Although the years may have decreased the chances of the police catching the killer, this programme and its BBC predecessor has proven that the impact of and public interest in this tragic case is as strong as ever.
https://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130700&headline=TV%20highlights%20from%20Saturday%20April%2020&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 10:56:05 AM
“Barry George, who was cleared of murdering TV presenter Jill Dando, accepted substantial undisclosed libel damages today over claims that he had pestered women he was obsessed with.

Mr George, who was acquitted of the crime after a retrial in August last year, was at London's High Court with his sister Michelle Diskin, who led the campaign to prove his innocence after his 2001 conviction, for the brief hearing before Mr Justice Eady.

He said afterwards: "I am pleased that the matter between myself and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following a successful mediation without the need for litigation."

His counsel, Gordon Bishop, told the court that Mr George had brought the action over a number of articles in The Sun and the News of the World between August and November last year.

He said that News Group had withdrawn the "false allegations" and apologised for making them.

It had agreed to pay him substantial damages and all his legal costs.

Mr Bishop said that immediately after his acquittal, Mr George was interviewed by News of the World reporters and the following day by Kay Burley for Sky TV.

"Mr George agreed to give those interviews because he knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press as quickly as possible in the hope that he would then be left in peace to move on with his private life."

On August 2 2008, The Sun published articles about the retrial and Mr George, which described a number of matters that had been kept from the jury during the retrial.

Counsel said that News Group now recognised that those articles would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal.

"The defendant accepts that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise."

The following day, the News of the World carried a report of the interviews given by Mr George in which he stated that at the time of the murder he was in a disability centre.

Mr Bishop said: "He also said that an hour later he was in conversation with a woman in the street who became a prosecution witness.

"Although he accepted he was paying possibly unwanted attention to her, she never expressed that to him.

"The headline for the article was 'I didn't kill Jill Dando... I was stalking someone else at the time". The defendant accepts that Mr George never made that statement."

Mr Bishop said various allegations were made in both newspapers in October 2008.

These included that Mr George had become obsessed with Kay Burley, that he pestered a woman whose advert about a dog he had answered, and that he became obsessed with Pam Wright, fiancee of Steve Wright, the Suffolk Strangler.

"The defendant now accepts that, although on one occasion Mr George did cycle to Sky TV studios to try to collect a tape of his interview with Kay Burley, Mr George did not pose a threat and was not obsessed with her, nor did he pester any woman who had a dog for sale, nor did he become obsessed with Pam Wright."

News Group's solicitor Ben Beabey said: "The defendant takes this oppportunity to correct matters and to apologise to Mr George for any hurt and distress he has felt."

Ms Diskin said outside court: "The war was won last August. There may be a few battles to come, but the war has been won. We are happy about that."

Her brother has launched separate High Court proceedings challenging the continued surveillance of his movements, despite his acquittal.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/barry-george-accepts-libel-damages-6779775.html

Interesting to note Kay Burley and Julie Etchingham worked together at Sky News.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 11:02:01 AM
“Now with access to hundreds of documents and photos, Etchingham reveals the theories and leads related to the case which have mystified the police for two decades.
The programme includes interviews with one of Jill’s best friends, as well as George and his sister Michelle.
One of the first theories to gain traction focused on Dando’s job presenting Crimewatch.
Some speculated that her visible role on a show that had led to countless criminals ending up behind bars made her a target.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by killing Dando.
Another theory again argues that Jill was targeted for her Crimewatch job, but the establishment did track down the killer.
Wayne Aird, who was serving a life sentence in prison for killing a man two months after Dando’s shooting, reportedly confessed to being part of what he said was an "establishment cover-up".
Other possible explanations have related to Dando’s attempts to expose a VIP paedophile ring at the BBC, and the scenario that an obsessed member of her fanbase was responsible for her death.
Finally, in the days and weeks leading up to Dando’s assassination, Nato forces were bombing Serbia as part of the Kosovo War.
A man with an Eastern European accent called the BBC the day after the shooting and claimed that it was a revenge killing.
https://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130700&headline=TV%20highlights%20from%20Saturday%20April%2020&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019

Hundreds of documents and photos the police have already followed up on and eliminated!


“The letter was from Wayne Aird, who wrote from HMP Wakefield where he is serving life for the murder of a man he committed two months after Dando’s death.
He claimed that senior paramilitaries chose her as a target because of her links to police through her work presenting Crimewatch, and that IRA involvement was being covered up so as not to harm the Northern Ireland peace process.
His letter stated that he was part of a four-man IRA hit squad that shot Ms Dando with a 9mm bullet before escaping in Land Rovers to a safe house.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1107535/jill-dando-bbc-documentary-murder-ira-who-killed-jill-dando-spt


“Another theory finds further motivation for the killer in Dando's Crimewatch work.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a 1996 road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch  appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by targeting Dando.
The report said: “Joe runs a bar in Tenerife, frequented by leading ex-pat criminals. He's described as a frustrated gangster reputed to owe money to Kenny Noye. There’s been talk Joe has been keen to rehabilitate his reputation with gangster creditors.”
It does not seem that Joe was ever traced
.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/jill-dando-killing-six-theories-14212094
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 02:00:31 PM
The prosecution case in the Jill Dando trial was attacked yesterday by Michael Mansfield QC, who claimed there was no conclusive proof that Barry George was in the street where the television presenter lived on the day of her murder.
He countered allegations that the defendant had produced a false alibi to cover his tracks and claimed that the police search of his home was "higgledy piggledy". Mr Mansfield also said that residue which the prosecution alleged was from a firearm could have come from accidental contamination. A fibre found on Ms Dando's coat proved nothing.

George, 41, of Fulham, west London denies murdering the Crimewatch presenter who was shot through the head with a single bullet on the doorstep of her Fulham home in April 1999.

On the second day of his closing speech, Mr Mansfield said the prosecution had tried to blend a number of sightings to form a whole. But descriptions given by witnesses did not add up. "There is no unity of clothing, complexion or hairstyle."

Only one of 13 witnesses had provided any kind of basis for saying George had been in Gowan Avenue where Ms Dando lived. "Do you feel it is fair to say there is an unassailable bond between this defendant and the murder?"

Mr Mansfield considered a suggestion from the prosecution that George had tried to create an alibi by going to the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability. The prosecution claimed that George returned home after the shooting and then went to the centre.

He said: "You do have to ask yourself the question, first of all, if he is the gunman having gone home, why go out at all?"

On the forensic evidence, Mr Mansfield said the prosecution has claimed that a particle found in George's coat pocket was residue caused by the discharge of a firearm.

But the coat could have easily been contaminated by any unsuspecting officer as the search procedure was "higgledy piggledy".

Mr Mansfield added this was the first time any prosecution had relied on the evidence of a single particle found a year after the event. "We hope, members of the jury, it will be the last."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jun/23/jilldando.stevenmorris


“Jurors who convicted the man accused of murdering Jill Dando reached a safe conclusion after reviewing compelling circumstantial evidence that left "no basis whatsoever" for the court of appeal to tamper with the verdict, a hearing heard yesterday.
Orlando Pownall, QC, said at the appeal court that last year's trial of Barry George, 42, was conducted fairly and criticisms of Mr Justice Gage were without foundation.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/17/jilldando.nickhopkins
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 02:09:10 PM
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Michelle Diskin Bates visited her brother in prison following his conviction for sexual related offences but did not see him again for another 12 years until she heard on the news he had been arrested for the murder of Jill Dando.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 03:47:27 PM
Excerpts from Michelle Diskin Bates book Stand Against Injustice re Surj Singh Clair.

“The News of the World had relented and decided they would pay Barry his full fee, thanks to the Trojan efforts of Surj Singh Clair. Barry’s own solicitor had been unable to do anything to help Barry, though he still received his fifteen percent. Surj, of course, did not earn a penny from Barry for his efforts, because he was representing MOJO and not himself.

“Surj Singh Clair came when he could. He had his own business in PR, but volunteered those skills to MOJO, pro bono.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 04:12:46 PM
George's agent Surjit Singh Clair said: "We have been approached by Devon Films. I can't confirm Barry's cut but it will easily run into six figures."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/lights--camera--cash-in-1656288


'Barry has mentioned visiting the grave a few times,' his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair told me this week.
'It's something he definitely wants to do. He just feels there's a connection between them  -  they've been tragically brought together.'
George has also discussed his plans with his confidante, his sister, Michelle Diskin.
'Barry spent eight years in jail for a murder he didn't do,' Mr Singh Clair said. 'He's become entwined with her life and she has played a huge part in his. He wants to exorcise Jill's ghost, and say: "I don't want you to think I hold any hard feelings against you."
'If he looks respectable and takes flowers, and perhaps goes with a friend or relative rather than slinking around on his own, then it wouldn't look too bad. It's his personal choice.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076331/Obsessed-visiting-Jill-Dandos-grave-acting-erratically-Barry-George-man-edge.html


Referring to George’s stalking past, his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair said: “He won’t be doing that kind of thing again.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/46472/50k-a-year-to-guard-Jill-misfit


“Barry George, the man acquitted last week of killing presenter Jill Dando, is being represented by freelance publicist Surjit Singh Clair. Singh Clair has also represented the Miscarriages of Justice Organisation.
https://www.prweek.com/article/837937/the-week


Surjit Singh Clair said Mr George, 48, acquitted last week of murdering TV presenter Jill Dando, now realised his past stalking and pestering of women was wrong.
He said: "It was inappropriate. He was lonely at the time and that was the only way he knew to communicate. But he said he has learnt from that and he won't be doing that kind of thing again.
"It's a case of self-policing for Barry. He now realises it is wrong."
Mr Clair was speaking after it emerged officials want to keep a close eye on Mr George amid fears over his former lifestyle. Police, prison and probation staff are discussing whether they can put in place special supervision arrangements.

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/55418/Cleared-George-no-danger-to-women


”Surjit Singh Clair, George's spokesman, said yesterday: 'Barry has still got to decide if he is going to go on a council's housing list or whether he is going to find private accommodation.
'The one thing he won't do is hide. He's a free man and he'll be happy to show his face in public.'
Mr Clair said 'early discussions' were also under way for George to take a lie detector test, which he has insisted he wants to do

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/taxpayers-fork-out-50000-a-year-to-keep-tabs-on-barry-george-6817373.html
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 09:12:23 PM
“Why did the police pick on George when the evidence against him was so weak? His sister, Michelle Diskin put forward a plausible reason after the trial:
My feeling is that Barry looked disposable. They thought he could disappear and no one would notice. They thought it was just him and his elderly mum. They didn’t realise he had a large family network.
(Daily Telegraph 3/7/01)

Michelle Diskin Bates visited her brother in prison following his conviction for sexual related offences but did not see him again for another 12 years until she heard on the news he had been arrested for the murder of Jill Dando.

The police also found two notes in George’s handwriting in his flat. These read:

“Although I did not know Jill Dando personally, my cousin Freddy Mercury was interviewed by her back in 1986.

“I was present with him, so for this reason I feel it’s poignant to express together the situation of Jill’s death and my coming to Christ. (Daily Telegraph 5/5/01)

Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 11:11:49 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

“Michelle Bates believes the circumstances which lead to her brother Barry George's wrongful conviction for the murder of Jill Dando should be investigated because they were not "standard practice".   Michelle Bates' brother Barry was convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 2001 but was acquitted at a retrial in 2008.   His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.   The Crown Prosecution Service has said that the any information given to Michelle Bates was given in "good faith" and The Metropolitan Police say they "fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando".  This clip is originally from 5 live Breakfast on April 1 2015.
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 20, 2019, 11:21:05 PM
“Michelle Bates believes the circumstances which lead to her brother Barry George's wrongful conviction for the murder of Jill Dando should be investigated because they were not "standard practice".   Michelle Bates' brother Barry was convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 2001 but was acquitted at a retrial in 2008.   His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.   The Crown Prosecution Service has said that the any information given to Michelle Bates was given in "good faith" and The Metropolitan Police say they "fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando".  This clip is originally from 5 live Breakfast on April 1 2015.

4th April 2015
“Jill Dando murder documentary: Watch Mark Williams-Thomas' explosive film in full after year-long investigation
The compelling 47-minute film came after the double award-winning investigative reporter pored over more than 52,000 documents, plus hours of previously unseen footage

“Mark, honoured by the Royal Television Society for his Exposure film unmasking Jimmy Savile as a predatory paedophile, worked alongside a Mirror team.

The documentary features full interviews with experts connected with the case who raise grave fears the original police investigation into Jill’s 1999 murder was flawed.

Mark explores in detail why potentially key lines of enquiry may have been missed, as police concentrated their efforts on nailing Jill’s neighbour Barry Georg
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-documentary-watch-5460623
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 21, 2019, 07:23:23 PM
BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.

I think it unlikely BG was the perp based on the fact unless he had Jill under surveillance he could not possibly know she was going to arrive at Gowan Ave when she did.  Therefore he struck lucky.  Also various people claim to have seen what they believe was the perp leaving the soc/vicinity and yet the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG and they were unable to pick out BG during an identity parade.  Plus imo the way in which the murder was carried out would appear to involve a highly skilled hit person and there's no evidence BG was capable of operating in such a way.

Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial.

Quote
N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case
Read more here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf


“Barry George’s first appeal (on the basis of identification) in 2002 was unsuccessful. In the mean time Dr Ian Evett, who worked for the Forensic Science Service (FSS), became concerned about the way the FDR evidence was used. Evett is a pioneer of a technique called Case Assessment and Interpretation (CAI) that stresses the need to consider both the prosecution and defence likelihoods for any piece of forensic evidence to determine its probative value [24][25]. Evett was concerned that only the defence likelihood had been discussed at the trial. In his view the evidence of a very low probability that the FDR in the coat pocket could have been caused by contamination was essentially a statement about the defence likelihood. Specifically, that P(E | Hd) was ‘very low’ where E is the FDR evidence and Hd is the defence hypothesis “BG did not fire the gun that shot JD”.
Hence, Evett argued that P(E | Hd) had been presented to the jury without also presenting P(E | Hp), where Hp is the prosecution hypothesis “BG fired the gun that shot JD”. A low value for P(E | Hd), when presented in isolation, can easily be wrongly interpreted as implying a low value for P(Hd) – a problem that is exacerbated by the prosecutor’s fallacy [17]. Evett, therefore, asked Mr Keeley to provide probabilities for both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp). Keeley estimated that both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp) were equal to 1/100. Since Hp and Hd are mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses it would follow correctly that the evidence had no probative value.
Evett took no action in relation to his conclusions, but in 2006 the FSS introduced new guidelines for reporting single particles and low level FDR [1]. Subsequently, in response to a request from the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the FSS reappraised the FDR evidence in the original trial and concluded that:
“The significance of the FDR findings in this case can be put into context by considering two alternative propositions:

Mr George is the man who shot Ms Dando
Mr George had nothing to do with the incident.

In our opinion the probability of finding a single particle of discharge residue in Mr George's coat pocket would have been the same, regardless of which of the above propositions was true. The FDR evidence is thus inconclusive. In our opinion it provides no assistance to anyone asked to judge which proposition is true.”
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 21, 2019, 08:00:29 PM

“Barry George’s first appeal (on the basis of identification) in 2002 was unsuccessful. In the mean time Dr Ian Evett, who worked for the Forensic Science Service (FSS), became concerned about the way the FDR evidence was used. Evett is a pioneer of a technique called Case Assessment and Interpretation (CAI) that stresses the need to consider both the prosecution and defence likelihoods for any piece of forensic evidence to determine its probative value [24][25]. Evett was concerned that only the defence likelihood had been discussed at the trial. In his view the evidence of a very low probability that the FDR in the coat pocket could have been caused by contamination was essentially a statement about the defence likelihood. Specifically, that P(E | Hd) was ‘very low’ where E is the FDR evidence and Hd is the defence hypothesis “BG did not fire the gun that shot JD”.
Hence, Evett argued that P(E | Hd) had been presented to the jury without also presenting P(E | Hp), where Hp is the prosecution hypothesis “BG fired the gun that shot JD”. A low value for P(E | Hd), when presented in isolation, can easily be wrongly interpreted as implying a low value for P(Hd) – a problem that is exacerbated by the prosecutor’s fallacy [17]. Evett, therefore, asked Mr Keeley to provide probabilities for both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp). Keeley estimated that both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp) were equal to 1/100. Since Hp and Hd are mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses it would follow correctly that the evidence had no probative value.
Evett took no action in relation to his conclusions, but in 2006 the FSS introduced new guidelines for reporting single particles and low level FDR [1]. Subsequently, in response to a request from the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the FSS reappraised the FDR evidence in the original trial and concluded that:
“The significance of the FDR findings in this case can be put into context by considering two alternative propositions:

Mr George is the man who shot Ms Dando
Mr George had nothing to do with the incident.

In our opinion the probability of finding a single particle of discharge residue in Mr George's coat pocket would have been the same, regardless of which of the above propositions was true. The FDR evidence is thus inconclusive. In our opinion it provides no assistance to anyone asked to judge which proposition is true.”

5.2.3 Failure to properly identify multiple different hypotheses and their relationships
Most of the above problems and confusions would have been avoided by a clearly stated set of hypotheses and evidence so that every explicit (or implicit) statement of conditional probability could have been clearly stated as P(A | B) where A and B were unambiguous.
But the problems go much deeper because it is clear that there are many different hypotheses being considered in the evidence (and often these are being confused) and that it is inconceivable that the experts could have provided all of the appropriate likelihoods to come to the conclusions that they did. Here are examples of just some of the pairs of different prosecution and defence hypotheses that are mentioned in the Appeal ruling (although we accept that some of these are semantically equivalent) [1]:
1. Para 18:
Prosecution: FDR came from gun that killed victim
Defence: FDR came from some extraneous source
2. Para 22:
Prosecution: FDR recovered from BG’s coat pocket, as he was the killer of the victim
Defence: FDR recovered from BG’s coat pocket, but he was not the killer of the victim
3. Para 23:
Prosecution: BG is the man who shot victim
Defence: BG had nothing to do with the incident
4. Para 26 (i):
Prosecution: FDR came from a gun fired by BG
Defence: FDR came from some other source
5. Para 26 (ii):
Prosecution: The wearer of the coat fired the gun
Defence: The wearer of the coat did not fire the gun (the defence hypothesis is unspecified in the appeal report, but this is one possibility.)
6. Para 27:
Prosecution: FDR came from a gun fired at the time of the victim’s murder
Defence: FDR came from some other source
7. Para 28:
Prosecution: FDR found as a result of BG firing a gun
Defence: FDR found as a result of secondary contamination
8. Para 32:
Prosecution: The particle is FDR
Defence: The particle is not FDR
9. Para 33:
Prosecution: FDR came from ammunition that killed the victim
Defence: FDR came from any other ammunition that had that kind of percussion primer
10. Para 37:
Prosecution: FDR did not come from secondary contamination
Defence: FDR came from secondary contamination
11. Para 38:
Prosecution: FDR came from the cartridge that killed the victim
Defence: FDR came from some innocent source
12. Para 50:
Prosecution: FDR was deposited on the coat other than innocently
Defence: FDR was deposited on the coat innocently

That there must be far more hypotheses involved is evident from the fact that numerous probabilistic and quasi-probabilistic statements mentioned in the trial are not encapsulated by the grossly simple original Hp, Hd and E alone

[1]. A full set of is provided in supplement [38] Section 11.
http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~ahsu/papers/BarryGeorge.pdf
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2019, 04:46:49 PM
BARRY GEORGE and NEWS GROUP NEWSPAPERS LIMITED
STATEMENT IN OPEN COURT
Counsel for the Claimant (Gordon Bishop)

“My Lord, the Claimant, Mr Barry George, has brought this action for libel against the Defendant, News Group Newspapers Limited, in respect of a number of articles which were published about him in The Sun and the News of the World between 1st August and 30th November 2008.
Mr George has the misfortune of being well known because of his wrongful conviction in July 2001 (by a majority verdict of 10-1) of the murder of the TV presenter Jill Dando, who had been shot dead on the front steps of her London home in April 1999. Mr George was sentenced to life imprisonment. In July 2002 the Court of Appeal dismissed his appeal. In November 2007, after a long campaign to prove his innocence led by his sister, Michelle Diskin, the Court of Appeal set aside his conviction and ordered a retrial. On 9 June 2008 the retrial started at the Old Bailey and on 1 August the jury by a unanimous verdict found him not guilty.
Immediately after his acquittal Mr George was interviewed by News of the World reporters and the following day by Kay Burley for Sky TV. Mr George agreed to give those interviews because he knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press as quickly as possible in the hope that that he would then be left in peace to move on with his private life.
On Saturday the 2 August 2008 the Sun published articles about the retrial and Mr George, which described a number of matters which had been kept from the jury during the retrial. The Defendant now recognises that those articles would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal. The Defendant accepts that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise.
On Sunday the 3rd August 2008 the News of the World carried a report of the interviews given by Mr George in which he stated that at the time of the murder he was in a disability centre. He also said that an hour later he was in conversation with a woman in the street who became a prosecution witness. Although he accepted he was paying possibly unwanted attention to her she never expressed that to him. The headline for the article was “I didn’t kill Jill Dando ... I was stalking someone else at the time”; the Defendant accepts that Mr George never made that statement.
A number of other articles about Mr George were published in both The Sun and the News of the World in October 2008. Various allegations were made including that he had become obsessed with Kay Burley, that he had pestered a woman whose advert about a dog he had answered and that he had become obsessed with Pam Wright, the fiancée of Steve Wright, the Suffolk Strangler. The Defendant now accepts that, although on one occasion Mr George did cycle to Sky TV studios to try to collect a tape of his interview with Kay Burley, Mr George did not pose a threat and was not obsessed with her nor did he pester any woman who had a dog for sale nor did he become obsessed with Pam Wright.
The Defendant is here today by its solicitor to withdraw publicly the false allegations it made and to apologise to Mr George for making them. It has also agreed to pay him substantial damages and all his legal costs.
Defendant’s solicitor (Ben Beabey of Farrers)
On behalf of News Group Newspapers I confirm what my learned friend says and the Defendant takes this opportunity to correct matters and to apologise to Mr George for any hurt and distress he has felt.
https://www.5rb.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/George-v-News-Group-SIOC-16-Dec-2009.pdf
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2019, 04:49:06 PM
“A Statement in Open Court was read yesterday on behalf of Barry George in respect of his claims for libel against News Group Newspapers. Mr George was acquitted in August 2008 of murdering Jill Dando, after spending seven years in prison awaiting a retrial.
Mr George had brought claims against articles in both The Sun and the News of the World. Allegations included that there were grounds to suspect him of the murder despite his acquittal, and that he had become obsessed and pestered other women.
“Speaking after the short hearing before Mr Justice Eady, Mr George said: “I am pleased that the matter between me and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following successful mediation and without the need for litigation.”
5RB‘s Gordon Bishop acted for Mr George and continues to act for him in his claim against Mirror Group Newspapers.
See here https://www.5rb.com/news/barry-george-wins-apology/


“The settlement of Mr George’s libel claim against MGN Ltd, Tina Weaver and David Jeffs was announced in a Statement in Open Court before Mr Justice Eady today.
https://www.5rb.com/news/barry-george-wins-libel-damages/
Title: Re: Barry George revisited.
Post by: Nicholas on April 22, 2019, 06:30:23 PM
“As she publishes a moving memoir, Stand Against Injustice, Michelle Diskin Bates, sister of Barry George, tells Ivan Little of the nightmare that began with her brother's arrest and the family's enduring struggle to cope with the events that engulfed them

A sister of Barry George, the man who was wrongly convicted of the murder of BBC TV presenter Jill Dando nearly 20 years ago, has revealed that she received 'invaluable' support for her fight for justice for him from Paddy Hill of the Birmingham Six and Gerry Conlon of the Guildford Four.

And Michelle Diskin Bates says that she and her brother attended the west Belfast funeral of their 'dear friend' Gerry Conlon, but their presence went unreported by local media at the time in June 2014.

In a new book, Stand Against Injustice, Michelle says her brother is now living in the Republic after he was "hounded" out of England by tabloid newspapers.

In a high profile trial George was found guilty of killing Ms Dando, who was shot dead on the doorstep of her home in the fashionable Chelsea district of London in April 1999.

Michelle says her brother, who lived in nearby Fulham, had been in the Chelsea area on the day of the murder, making a series of complaints to a disability centre who after the killing reported him to police but they didn't arrest him for another 12 months.

He was jailed for life the following year but the conviction was ruled unsafe by the Court of Appeal who ordered a re-trial and he was acquitted in 2008 after fresh doubts were cast on the reliability of gunshot residue evidence.

Despite the acquittal, George's claim for compensation for wrongful arrest was dismissed by judges who said that "there was a case upon where a reasonable jury, properly directed, could have convicted the claimant".

Michelle says that the judges had in effect ruled that George "wasn't innocent enough".

New legislation had meant that compensation would only be paid when a court quashed a conviction because a new fact had emerged to show beyond reasonable doubt that the applicant didn't commit the offence.

Michelle says the old presumption of innocence until proven guilty had been stood on its head to the point where people like her brother had to prove their innocence to get compensation.

And Michelle, who throughout her brother's trial and eight years behind bars never gave up on her battle to clear his name, suddenly had a new fight on her hands which features heavily in her book.

But the publication also looks back over all of the 18 years of legal struggles on behalf of her brother who before the murder was widely seen as something of a Walter Mitty character in London.

He constantly adopted false personas to represent himself variously as a policeman, a karate champion, a stuntman and a session musician with the Electric Light Orchestra.

Among the names he used was Bulsara, the real surname of Queen singer Freddie Mercury. He also apparently claimed at a wedding in Ireland that he was an SAS soldier.

In court it was said he was a "local nutter" with a personality disorder but his family said he was a "naive eccentric".

Michelle's book doesn't focus entirely on her brother's case. She says she also wrote it to inform the public about "what the justice system is doing" and she has also highlighted a number of other cases of miscarriage of justice which concern her.

Michelle, an Englishwoman who lived in Limerick and Cork for 40 years before moving back across the water, also writes about how Paddy Hill, one of the Birmingham Six who were wrongly convicted of pub bombings in the city in 1974, has been an invaluable source of guidance and support for her along with his Miscarriages of Justice Organisation (MOJO), who also counted the late Guildford Four member Gerry Conlon among their numbers.

She says that Paddy Hill approached her and offered to do whatever he could to help her and her brother.

She adds: "The organisation had all this legal stuff that I had no idea of. They gave me advice about how appeals might go. Up until then we'd had no one to turn to. No road-maps, nothing about what you should do when something like this happens."

Michelle says Gerry Conlon had a soft spot for Barry and knew he was an innocent man. In June 2014, she received a phone call telling her that the Belfast man was terminally ill. She says that she wrote to him but she didn't get to see him before he died.

Michelle says that she and her brother travelled to Belfast for the funeral in St Peter's Cathedral because they felt it was important to say goodbye to him.

No reports of the funeral mention th